699 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75f28afb70a9f50ee0b4fc5e7bf87436.m4v 80ce4cb4cddda57ab8633fcda6c85c56 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a662b20ecfc4c8e12f156ff9b880ac7b.pdf 1a9d8ad4884230cf3d8e330ea64f10b7 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW EDWARD J. SERAFINO Born: January 16, 1948 Resides: Interviewed by: Terry Wainwright, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 24, 2014 Interviewer: Today is November 9. 2009 and we’re at Lake Michigan College in Benton Harbor, Michigan and we’re talking to Edward J. Serafino. We are interviewing for the Library of Congress Veterans History Project and my name is Terry Wainwright, lest we forget. Let’s just start at the beginning. What is the year of your birth? I was born on January 16th 1948. Interviewer: What branch of service were you in? I was in the Marines. Interviewer: What was the highest rank that you reached? I was an E4 when I got out. Interviewer: Could you tell us a little bit about your family and your original background before. Well, I was born and raised in a small town just west of Chicago and I had three younger sisters and my father worked in construction. My mother was just a house woman, a housewife. 1:10 Interviewer: What high school did you go to? I went to Morton West in Berwyn. Interviewer: When did you join the military? 1 �I joined on a hundred and twenty delayed program they had going, so I signed up in May and I went in right out of high school in August. Interviewer: What made you chose the Marines? I wanted to be a draft dodger, so I joined the Marines, and I knew I was going to Vietnam and I wanted the best training I could have, so I could come home. Interviewer: Could you pick what work you had in the military? I was an 18-33. It’s an amphibious assault vehicle called an Amtrac. It’s roughly thirty feet long, ten feet high, and ten feet wide. 2:05 And has a top speed of about ten miles an hour on hard packed, and about two miles an hour in the water, and it floats. Interviewer: Do you remember the first few days in the Marines, what was it like and what was it like during basic training? Well, I remember going down town and they put you in this big room and you stand around and wait. They took us on a bus and took us to O’Hare Airport and it was the first time I was ever on a plane. Our next stop was San Diego. We got off the plane and there were two drill instructors standing there, very nice gentlemen, and they talked real nice to us until we got in the bus. We got in the bus and the good times ended. 3:02 We got to MC area D, stood on the yellow footprints and went in there and got a haircut. All twenty of us walked through the barber shop in about ten minutes. Then they walked you into different rooms, they give you a yellow T-shirt, a pair of pants that almost fit, shoes and socks, skivvies, they marched all twenty of us into the shower. You came out of the shower and put all of your civilian clothes in a box, put this other stuff on, they gave you a blanket, sheets, pillowcase, and then you finally went to bed about four in the morning. You get up at six and you start over again. 2 �Interviewer: What was boot camp like? I was in pretty good shape when I went to boot camp, because I played sports in high school, and it was rough. 4:03 A lot of calisthenics, a lot of classrooms you go to, different things you learn, how to shoot a rifle, how to march, how to pay attention, how to just grow up. Interviewer: How long did that last? Nine weeks, and then right out of boot camp they give you what you’re going to do in the service and then yo go to ITR, which was two weeks and then yo went home on leave for twenty days. Then I went back to California, learned what an Amtrac was , how to drive it, graduated from that in thirty days, went to staging, and then I went to Vietnam. Interviewer: Do you remember anything about your trip to Vietnam? 5:00 They took us on school busses to El Toro Air Force Base. We got there in the afternoon and we all went to the theater and the movie we went to see was Born Free. The next morning we got up, they had a civilian airplane and took us to Okinawa. In Okinawa we got our shots, we gave blood, collected our uniforms there and then went to Da Nang and from Da Nang you just went to your unit you were with. Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam, what did you think? It was like a town that was a hundred years old. You didn’t see any street lights; there was no electricity where we were at, no ice, no anything. 6:10 Interviewer: You said you went from there, further north, and where did you go from there? 3 �From Da Nang I went to Dong Ha where I was stationed with a four deuce [4.2-inch] mortar battery for a while, because they needed more people there than they did in amtracs. From there I went to Camp Carroll. Interviewer: Stepping back a little bit, what was your job in Dong Ha? In Dong Ha it was in a four deuce mortar battery where I worked with a supply person for two weeks and then they had an outpost with about, I believe it was, ten 4.2 mortars, and I ended up out there with them. 7:00 We’d just shoot the mortar at different areas they’d have a shootout at night. I don’t remember where the base was at, the only way in was by Huey gunship, you’d go to an airport and they’d put you on a Huey gunship, they’d take you in and drop you off and you’d just do that, and then you’d have to stand security at night during the monsoons where it was so dark you couldn’t see anything. Interviewer: How many people would be at this outpost? There would be three of us in there, two would be awake and one would be sleeping. Interviewer: How long did you stay there? All night, and you’d do that, maybe, one or two days a week, and different people would just rotate with you. 8:01 If you were not doing that then you’d be on gun watch all night, or if a fire mission came in you’d have to drop the rounds into the tube and shoot them. Interviewer: You said you went to Camp Carroll, what did you do there? Well, they needed bodies up there, so they had us digging foxholes, bunkers and filling sandbags—moving sandbags and then we’d stand security at night in there, also. That was the first time we ever got hit—mortars and rockets, it’s like a beautiful 4th of July 4 �coming in. You see nothing but red and blue and silver sparkling things going over your head at night. Interviewer: Were there a lot of casualties? There were quite a few up there, but not a lot. 9:00 Interviewer: You still hadn’t had a chance to use your specialty? No, then from there we went to Quang Tri. They got over run, so they put more marines over there to stand security with the ARVNS, and then finally I got in the amtracs. They took us down by an LST to Cocoa Beach down by Phu Bai/Hue, and from there we went five miles over the river to a cemetery between three villages. We stayed there for about a month and a half as security. Interviewer: What was it like there? It was very boring, you would just stand security. We made a couple trips with the Amtracs and on one of these trips we were starting to get mortared. 10:03 With the AmTracs not moving too fast we had to call in for an air strike and they brought two jets in. They came in so fast and so low, dropping napalm that nobody knew where they were coming from, or how they got there. But when you go over the top of the Amtrac and you see those silver canisters come rolling out from the bottom, you know they’re close. Then they come back on the radios and tell you, “you better duck, here we come again”, and they did. Interviewer: I see where you actually lived in an active cemetery? Yes, one day—one Sunday every month, the Vietnamese, they were allowed to come on our base and bring food for the dead. 11:05 They would set up a little blanket on the grave and put vegetables and fruit on the grave, so the person that passed could eat. We 5 �always helped them out with that and made sure they ate good. From there, that platoon was the third platoon, they were going back to Okinawa and since I didn’t have enough time to go back to Okinawa with them, they transferred me to the fourth platoon. From the fourth platoon I went back to Cua Viet again and from there we went to Cam Lo, parked in another cemetery for a month, and from there we went to Con Thien. 12:00 We’re up in Con Thien to haul supplies, because it was so muddy up there you couldn’t get trucks to move, so we had to haul ammunition, water and food, and take the water tank down to the creek and fill that up and bring that back every day. One day up in Con Thien they had a bunch of infantrymen who got shot up real bad. They had ten, or fifteen wounded, ten, or fifteen, dead and they called in for helicopters to medevac them out, they tried and they couldn’t get them out because they were getting shot at, so we had to put three doctors, the corpsman and a preacher inside the amtrac and take them out, and pick-up the wounded and dead. That was the day we were driving through the high elephant grass. 13:03 I was driving and you sit up in the front corner, and I looked down and I ran over one of our bombs that didn’t go off and for some reason it did not blow again. A few minutes later there was a Vietcong lying in the grass with a gun, I saw him at the last minute and ran over him, I couldn’t avoid him. Interviewer: That was the only one in that area that you knew of? The only one that we knew of, yes, and then we went up there and found out where they were at and we started loading up the wounded and the dead. I was helping them carry the wounded on stretchers back to the amtrac. Went back to Con Thien, the helicopter’s there waiting for us and they took them from us. 14:00 Interviewer: Were you under fire at that time, or was the squad at that time? 6 �We were under a lot of fire at that time. Interviewer: During that whole period? Yes, and months later I was ready to come home and I was in Da Nang, and this fellow Marine comes up and grabs my hand and shakes my hand and he says, “Thank you”, and I said, “I don’t know you”, and he said, “Yes you do, I was one of the wounded you carried. I told myself I’d never forget your face”. Interviewer: You were telling me about a priest that was with you? The priest that was at Con Thien with us his name was Father Lyons and we had our amtracs parked right next to their makeshift hospital up there, and Father Lyons used to come into the amtrac with us and talk to us at night and enjoy having C rations with us. 15:07 I was explaining to them that I was born and raised in a town in Illinois called Lyons, and he looks at me and he says, “I used to be the preacher in the church in Riverside”, which was three or four miles from my house. Interviewer: How long were you in Con Thien? I believe I was there for about a month and a half. We were there for the Marine Corps birthday and they did us a favor, they brought in real food for us that day, but the weather was so bad they couldn’t get the helicopters in right away and all the food went bad and we all got sick up there. 16:03 They had to fly in medication for us, so we could still operate. We also spent Thanksgiving up there too. Interviewer: What was Thanksgiving like? They brought fresh food in for us again too, but I don’t think any of us ate it. Nothing against the cooks, but the C rations were much better. Interviewer: Was that what the food was normally? 7 �Yes, we carried a lot of C rations, and we did not have mess halls too often, because we were out in different locations with the amtracs. Interviewer: What did you think of the food in the C rations? You got your favorites and your ham and lima beans were one of the best. You took the ham out very gently and you threw it as far as you could. 17:02 You took the lima beans and you mixed them up with a little hot sauce, cheese and crackers, heated them up and they were good. The apricots, you never ate. Interviewer: So you get to be a real cook there. Yes you do, and you learn what’s good and what’s not. Interviewer: Did you have much contact with the local people? Most of the time no--because anybody that came near the fence knew the wires were free game to shoot, and when we were in the cemetery that was time when people could come through us and that was about it. Interviewer: So, were you pretty much stationary? Did you go out with your AmTrac on any missions? We would take the amtracs out every third day. 18:01 One day we would drive a patrol and the next day we would walk the patrol and the third day we would work on the AmTracs. If we drove, we’d take the other people from our platoon and we’d drop them off at one side of a village and we would drive to the other side of the village and sit there and wait for them to come to us. If anybody came out we’d have to check their ID cards to see if they were north or South Vietnamese. If they didn’t have an ID card, they were north and we took them back to the base. Interviewer: How many would go on a mission? 8 �There would be about twenty of us. Interviewer: What is the capacity of the amtrac? I believe it would hold thirty on the inside, but you never rode on the inside, you always rode on the top, because on the bottom of the AmTrac was all the fuel. 19:05 It held almost four hundred gallons of fuel, of gas, so if you hit a bomb it would just explode and burn everything up inside. Interviewer: How safe was it when you were in the amtrac then? One .762 a round would go through the side of it, so they weren’t that safe. Interviewer: Did one ever do that? We had quite a few that sunk and burned, and got blown up by different mines and bombs. If you were lucky and hit a small bomb, you’d just blow the track off of it. Interviewer: What weapons did the amtrac have? What did it have to fight back? We had one thirty caliber machine gun that would be mounted on the front and it had a three man crew. 20:04 You had a driver, a machine gunner and a crew chief. Interviewer: So where did you go after Con Thien? From Can Tien we went back to Cau Viet for the first of the year, January of 1968, and then we went aboard a ship. We were part of a BLT battalion landing troop. They loaded us up on the Cleveland, which was an LPD. We were supposed to take the amtracs and swim them out to the ship, but the waves were so high they had to bring mike boats in. They put the amtrac on the boat, took that out to the ship, unloaded it, and came back. 21:00 I was the crew chief of four zero, so that meant that I was the first on off the ship, the last one on. We finally got on the ship, got the amtrac tied down with the dogs and this officer comes up to me and said, “How did you like the Navy food?” I 9 �said, “I don’t know sir, we just got on here and we’re ready to go back to the amtrac and have some more C rations for supper”. He said, “No you’re not”, and he took us to the officers’ mess and fed us that night. That was the first time in months that we had milk that was cold and not powdered. From there we went to the Philippine Islands, we were supposed to be there for a month with the battalion landing troop and that ended up to be about four or five days. 22:00 Then they had us load back up and go back and made a landing in Cau Viet when the Tet started. We stayed on the beach for another couple weeks, the ship came in, and my Lieutenant knew I was getting short, so he had me get back on the ship to go back to Da Nang and back home. Interviewer: You said you were in country in early 1968. Were you there during Tet? Just the start of it Interviewer: What was that like? There were a lot more mortars and rockets that came into our base. Interviewer: It was more active? Yes, and we always listened to Hanoi Hannah and she said, “I will have New Year’s dinner in your mess hall”, but she didn’t. 23:00 Interviewer: What other kind of entertainment did you have? I saw one USO show. On the night before I was ready to leave for Da Nang--that was the USO show we saw. We were so far north that Bob Hope wouldn’t even send us a card. We didn’t have any up there, we didn’t have week-ends, and it was just another day to work. Interviewer: You mentioned about Bob Hope. 10 �When I got out of the service, I went back to the night club I use to work at in my small town, and I was in there working one night and Bob Hope and a couple of his friends walked in there. The waiter knew I was back from Vietnam and he told Bob Hope. 24:01 Bob Hope called me over by him to say “hello” and he asked me how great his shows were and I told him, “I don’t know, you wouldn’t even send us a card”. He shook my hand and laughed. Interviewer: Any other things that were memorable in the usual happenings that comes to mind? Well, the worst thing that happened to me when I left Vietnam, I was in one of their local watering holes in my home town and the police were looking for me that night. So, when I went back home I went to the police station and they informed me that my driver got killed right after I left Nam. 25:02 His parents wanted me to come up and see him, they were up in Palmyra, Wisconsin and his name was Chuck Duel. Interviewer: What was the best experience you had with regards to Vietnam and your military service? When we left the Philippine Islands with the amtracs--we had them—the ship was parked out, maybe, a quarter mile in the bay and we had to take our amtracs and swim them out to the ship. If anybody went to the Philippine Islands, especially Subic Bay, you know what’s there. There are a lot of taverns and a lot of loose women. 26:00 We wanted to see who could buy the most women’s skivvies to hang on the antennas when we went back to the ship. That was great—one of the Colonels or Generals from Subic Bay wanted to have his wife and daughters watch the amtracs go back to the ship. He did not 11 �care for our flags that were flying off the antennas and we ended up with no liberty for thirty days off the ship. Interviewer: While you were in Vietnam, how did you keep in touch with your family back home? We would just write letters, and what was nice about Vietnam, you never had stamps. 27:01 We use to just write across the top where a stamp would go, “free’. That was— and being away from our base most of the time, sometimes it would take a month before we got a letter, and then you’d get a whole stack of them. Interviewer: Were you awarded any medals, or citations? No, not that I can think of Interviewer: Tell me about your trip home from Vietnam, what was it like? What kind of experience did you have? We went back to Okinawa. We ended up landing there—well, first when we were aboard the ship, the Cleveland, they got my records and then they said, “Okay, we’re not going to Da Nang”, so I flew on a small helicopter from the Cleveland to Iwo Jima. 28:11 Before we got on you’re standing there with an envelope with you papers in it. They tell you that if you lose your papers you’re not going home. So, you’re sitting on this airplane, this helicopter, with no doors on it and they fly you from one ship to the other. Then we went on to Iwo Jima, from that they went on to Da Nang. They took all of our paperwork and put it on a small boat and said, “Okay, climb down the rope ladder to the other boat”, and they’re going up and down. When they say, “jump”, jump. 29:02 then we got into Da Nang and they said, “Your plane is not leaving for a day and a half”. That was the night we saw the USO show and they played the Marine Corps. Hymn and 12 �everybody stood up. We went back to the airport, sat on wooden benches and left Da Nang. We got to Okinawa and we were there for six hours, got our sea bags, got on a civilian plane and went back to El Toro. We landed in El Toro and we had a big party waiting for us, maybe five people. 30:03 We walked in this building, sat down, they signed our orders and they said, “If you go to the airport be careful and stay in groups”. We piled in a cab to the airport and we stayed in a group watching people and walking us to different gates. It was three o’clock in the morning and I was by myself, everybody else was gone. I went to the washroom and the next thing I know two guys are trying to push me through the wall, and all of a sudden they were gone. Two guys walked in and started thumping on those two. I said, “Can I stay and help?” They said, “No, get out”, so they threw me out of the washroom. 31:00 I see these guys a half hour later, they were both in the navy and that was their job, to stay at the airport and protect military people. Interviewer: Where did you go from there? From there I went back to Chicago. I stayed home for thirty days, for thirty five days, because I had to get a five day extension to go to my driver funeral. His parents wanted me to be a pallbearer, in uniform, which I did. I came home, drove out to California and I was stationed working in the brick, in Camp Pendleton. From there, I was discharged out of there, and I went back home. 32:00 Interviewer: After leaving the military did you keep in touch with the guys? No, I didn’t, except we had a reunion eleven years ago in a big town called New Town, North Dakota. They have one casino there, it’s Four Bears, and one of the marines that was in our platoon, he was from that tribe and he wanted to have a reunion at the casino. 13 �He said, he was talking to some of us and he said, “When we come home from the war, we meet at this arena”. There is a big hall there and they go there and everybody from the village and the tribe, they come back and they welcome you home. 33:06 He said, “Sometimes it takes two, or three, days before all the food and booze is gone”, so that was it, so he wanted to have the reunion there. So, we had the reunion there, we had a good time and that was the same week they had a Pow Wow, and there had to be over a thousand Indians there. He had it arranged so the thirty of us would carry the colors in for the opening ceremony. So, I tried to get at the end of the line, which I did, we carry the colors in and set them up and as we’re marching in the Indians are coming in behind us in full dress. 34:00 We made a big circle and they were still coming in, so we get out there and all set up and he gets up there and he does his prayers and everything, and he says, “When we were aboard ship we were talking, what happens when these people come home, the bartender might buy them a drink if they’re lucky”. He said, “You will be welcomed home today”, so he excused all the Indians and he said, “Okay, welcome them home”. They start off by having all the old women come up to you, they give you a hug and a kiss and a squeeze and say a couple nice word to you. Then you get the ones that come up and give you a hug and a kiss and a squeeze and say, ”I’m happy you made it home, I wish my son, or husband, would have made it him too”. 35:02 Now you have thirty marines up there with tears running down, and everybody came up and welcomed you home. Indians in full dress, the kids, everybody and it’s one thing I’ll never forget. Interviewer: Did you use the GI Bill at all? 14 �A few months after I got out of the service, I went to work for the telephone company and I used my GI Bill for on the job training, which wasn’t too much, but it helped out back then. Interviewer: So, what kind of an impact do you think being in the marines had on your life? 36:00 I believe they should activate the draft and have everybody join the service. We were sitting in a restaurant one night when--one Sunday morning, me and my wife, on two busy streets and the restaurant was packed. I saw this young girl sitting in a car, this guy jumped off the sidewalk, tried to get in her car and she was smart enough to lock her doors, and then he went and sat on her hood, so she couldn’t move. Nobody from the restaurant would do anything about it, so I just walked out and asked him very nicely to leave and he did. 37:00 I walked back in the restaurant and five or six people came up to me and asked me what I said to him. I said, “If you wanted to know, you would have walked out there too”. Being in the military you’ve got to look out for other people and that’s why I feel I did it. Interviewer: Anything else you would like to say? This is a lot harder than you think it is, being on this side of the chair and I thank you very much, you did a great job. 37:40 15 �16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SerafinoE Title A name given to the resource Serafino, Edward (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Serafino, Edward Description An account of the resource Edward Serafino was born in Illinois in 1948 and enlisted in the Marines Corps right after graduating from high school. They were sent to San Diego for basic training for 9 weeks, which was very rough on him even though he had played many sports in high school. Edward then trained with amphibious vehicles called Amtraks for another 30 days before being shipped to Vietnam. While in Vietnam Edward worked for a while on supplies, guard duty, and then spent most of his time traveling along water ways in the Amtraks. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wainright, Terry (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca02ef3519352edbad4b7448fb6cf672.mp4 ca133a071577631a5c455c213046bc28 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ac26916e5452a6df9974cdda710077f.pdf c7b68142c3bbe73a8de3036cc322b9dd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Peter Senft 1:13:00 Introduction (00:23)         Peter was born on August 27, 1948 in Dallas, Texas. He only lived there a year or two before his family relocated to northern New Jersey. After some additional cross-country travel, the family finally settled in Ridgewood, New Jersey. His father was a textbook publishing executive who traveled a lot for his job. Peter graduated from high school in June 1967. After high school, he attended Marsh Army College in Charleston, South Carolina for one year. He majored in drinking and chasing women. His father brought him home and made him go to Fairleigh Dickinson University in Wayne, New Jersey for another year. His father told him he had to get all A‟s for him to continue to pay for his school and Peter got a B+ average. He then went down to the Army recruiting station and eventually enlisted for a career in intelligence. Peter enlisted in the United States Army in March 1969. He had been paying attention to the conflict in Vietnam so he knew where he was going once he got in the service. (02:45) To get into the intelligence field, he had to take a test prior to going in to see if he qualified for the MOS, which he did. When he enlisted, he was given 90 days before he had to ship out. Military Training (03:09)         Peter went to basic training in June 1969 at Fort Dix, New Jersey. Everything in basic training was geared for Vietnam such as a 20 mile hike that they would do in Vietnam and to shoot their rifle because it would save their life in Vietnam. All of his instructors were Vietnam vets, and most of them were E-6 or above. Adjusting to military life was easy for Peter because his father was a very strict disciplinarian growing up who fought in World War II and emulated General George Patton. (04:56) About 60% of his training company were draftees that just wanted to stay alive in Vietnam so they learned as much as they could. During basic, they never left the base, but once towards the end of training they were able to have visitors on base. Basic training lasted for eight weeks. after basic training Peter was sent to Fort Holabird, Maryland to begin his intelligence training. (06:23) The atmosphere was much more relaxed at this school. It had very little weapons and survival training but more emphasis on his job which was a combat order battle intelligence analyst. �         His job was to analyze the enemy on the battlefield and present that information to the commanding officer. The instructors for this course came from all branches and a Marine captain stood out to Peter as a great guy. They lived in a barracks and went through the normal military protocol such as inspections, but it was much more relaxed. The work was largely classroom, and the course lasted 8-12 weeks. Peter was then volunteered to become a Shake & Bake NCO. Since Peter was second or third in his class, he was told that after the program he would come out as an E-5. They could also be sent all over the world wherever they were needed. All of them were sent to Vietnam. (08:47) The NCO training was very interesting to Peter, because they were able to do things that most soldiers don‟t normally get to do. They had to infiltrate an island that was set up like Vietnam and they had to swim to the island and work out things once there. This program was 16 weeks. His training was completed in May 1970. Along the way, he took some weekend trips home by train while he was still stationed in New Jersey. Peter‟s next stop was Vietnam. Vietnam (10:21)         Prior to being sent to Vietnam, Peter was given a 30 day leave to go home. After his leave, he reported to McChord Air Force Base and boarded a World Airways DC-10 and flew to Alaska, Japan and finally to Bien Hoa, Vietnam. His first impression of Vietnam was that it smelled horrible, it was hot and wet. They landed during the night because he remembers seeing flashes in the clouds and wondering if it was thunder or artillery. The men were put in a hooch and had to wait for two days before they were given their orders. Peter was assigned to S-2, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division. (S-2 is the intelligence office of the unit) He was then flown in to Phu Bai and then trucked up to Camp Evans. Once he arrived at Camp Evans, he went through SERTS (Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School) which helped the replacements learn the basics they needed to survive in country. This school lasted for five days. (12:40) During the school they learned how to rappel and they also dealt a little bit with dealing with the locals. The first task that Peter was asked to do was to complete a combat order battle intelligence report. This consisted of several reports that he had to combine into one. When Peter got to his unit, he was the only trained intelligence person in the brigade; he had two E-7‟s above him, a captain and then his CO, Major Andre. (14:12) Ripcord (14:24)  When he was looking over the data and maps, he realized that Firebase Ripcord, which was being held by the 101st Airborne, was surrounded by two fresh NVA divisions at 110 �             to 120% strength. In addition to the two divisions, they also had an artillery regiment and a reinforced sapper unit; which made the enemy numbers around 20,000 men, against a battalion that was at about 60-75% strength. That American unit was the 2/506th, 101st Airborne. In June, Peter started working a 12 hour shift at the brigade operation center manning the S-2 radio. He would call in the requested air support and anything else the men in the field needed. (16:30) The mood in the headquarters was very business like, even when things were bad in the field. On one occasion, Generals Westmoreland and Abrams came in to see how things were going and Peter had to give them an intelligence briefing. Peter also had to brief the Division commander. (18:55) The first week he was in country, he had to go up in a Nighthawk helicopter at night that flew around the wire. That night they saw something in the wire, and the door gunner opened fire with the mini-gun mounted on the chopper. It jammed, and the gunner yelled for Peter‟s M-16 rifle. The gunner lost his balance on a tight bank and he lost the M-16 out the open door and it landed outside the wire. The next day a patrol was sent out and retrieved it for him. (21:28) A week before Ripcord was evacuated, Alpha Company found a Hungarian folding stock AKM modified rifle. Major Andre came in and told Peter that he was going out to Ripcord to pick it up. He flew there on a supply chopper and when it landed at Ripcord he jumped off and ran into the operations center and then run back to the chopper. Only when he returned with the weapon, they helicopter was gone and he had to stay there for a day or two. (22:30) Being on Ripcord sometime around the 15th to the 18th of July, Peter was scared to death and he stayed in the operation center the whole time. It was cramped and hot, but he slept down there and worked the radio a bit; he was brought back the next day. They received 40-50 incoming rounds of mortar fire each day. The impression that he got from the men stationed on Ripcord was that they were going to get the job done. (24:08) There was a lot of drug use, but Peter did not do it because he always wanted to be able to react on a moments notice. He did drink a fair amount when he was not on duty, but it never interfered with his job. (26:25) Peter knows that the drugs and things were around, but he never recalls seeing it. Peter was in country for almost a year, around 40 days shy of the full year. While there he would do briefings, accumulate information from various sources and he worked with the RNS platoon (Reconnaissance Surveillance) going out into the field and showing them what he was looking for intelligence wise with things that they would encounter, such as bunker complexes. (30:43) When the order to evacuate Ripcord came through, Peter thought the political situation dictated the order. Peter‟s impression of General Berry [assistant commander of the division], was a by the book leader who was not well liked. (34:51) General Smith however, understood the different situations that the men would encounter in the field and he usually did the right thing instead of going by the book. (36:06) �               During interrogations of enemy POW‟s, Peter learned that they were a good source of credible information and no torture or mistreatment of any prisoners were done that he witnessed. At the Division level, if they could not get any answers from the prisoners they would go for a cup of coffee and come back fifteen minutes later. The prisoner would then tell them anything they wanted to know. This was probably because of the ARVN soldiers that did something to the prisoners while the Americans were away. Prisoners were usually just ordinary Viet Cong or NVA soldiers. Ripcord was evacuated on the 22-23 of July. After that, Peter worked at Firebase Nancy. It was on the road, nine clicks south of the DMZ. They shared the base with the ARVN‟s that did not go into Laos. (38:38) He was there in spring 1971. Another job that he did was to provide targets for Arc Lights B-52 strikes, flame drops and other aircraft strikes. On one of these flame drops, Peter knew that Americans were in the area and he radioed the unit and instructed them to pop a smoke. Peter saw the smoke and called out that he saw “Goofy Grape” (purple) but the soldier on the ground said that he had popped “Banana” (yellow) so they dropped their explosives on the goofy grape position and killed four or five enemy soldiers. (40:58) During Lam Son 719, they lost a lot of aircraft, most of which were attached through the ARVN units. Peter knew very little about the campaign because they were not that involved in it. While on Firebase Nancy, they brought in 8in SP (Self Propelled) Guns to support Lam Son. They shook the whole base and when they would fire, rats would fall dead from the rafters just from the concussion. (44:05) They would often eat what they called „mystery meat‟ which Peter believes to be water buffalo that were taken with mortars from the base. It was far better than c-rations. About once or twice a year he wakes up having screaming nightmares. He can usually suppress most bad memories and he likes to remember the good times. (47:31) When he had five days left in country, he was so short that he could sit on the edge of a dime and his feet wouldn‟t touch the ground. The only obligation that he had was to be at the 5 o‟clock briefing. He was ordered to go out and get some pigs that Colonel David Grange had shot outside of a firebase. Peter told him that he only had five days left and he didn‟t want to go back out in the field. Colonel Grange ordered him to go out and gave him his helmet, flak jacket and Remington 870 shotgun. He went out and found the three pigs and brought them back and had a great party afterwards. (50:15) On another occasion, they shot a Vietnamese elk and brought it back to base tied underneath the chopper. Peter took his R&R in the spring in Bangkok. After Ripcord, not much happened in country. Peter also came back to the states for a two week leave and he landed on December 26 back home. He had a lot of fun that two weeks and has many stories to tell. It was okay for him to go back to Vietnam afterwards because he looked at it as an incomplete job. (52:39) � He saw very little of the civilian population, but he was also ordered not to have contact with the locals out of Camp Evans. He did do some work with local officials, but not much. Back in the States (53:56)           Peter came home in mid May 1971. He was given a month leave and then returned to Fort Holabird and was assigned to United States Army Intelligence Command. He worked in the security clearance adjudication center. Peter also applied to become a special agent for the United States Army Intelligence, and was accepted. He was sent to Fort Huachuca Arizona for training and was trained as a special agent. He learned about counter-intelligence and how to collect intelligence, conducting interviews both friendly and hostile, how to investigate and pursue different crimes such as sedition or sabotage. After he completed the training, he was assigned to Garden City, Long Island to run background investigations. (55:37) Peter got to Garden City around June and was there for six months when they closed his office in October. He was reassigned to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, New York. When he reported in, he was told that they had too many agents and to go home and they would call him when he was needed. In December, he was called and asked if he would like to learn how to pick locks (DAME; Defense Against Methods of Entry) back at Fort Huachuca in January. He agreed and was sent. After that, he still did not have an assignment so he stayed for another course before being sent to Fort Riley, Kansas where he did some background investigations. Because of his DAME training, he was selected to conduct penetration inspections. For this, he would dress up and try to gain access to restricted areas to test their security. (57:56) One such inspection was at the G2 of the 1st Infantry Division. He was eventually found and detained. While being detained he had to lie face down on the ground spread eagle with a cocked .45 pistol at the back of his head for ten minutes before they verified who he was. For a month, Peter was sent Anacostia Naval Air Station to learn computer security. His instructor there was Grace Hopper, who coined the term „bug‟ for things that go wrong with computers. (59:44) Peter was then transferred to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri where he was involved in an organized crime investigation. The investigation led him to Springfield, Missouri about several organized crime groups fighting over the Fort Leonard Wood area. (1:03:30) After giving his report to the state attorney general‟s office, he kept a copy for himself and it was later discovered, which is a huge breach in military conduct. He was given an Article 15 and he decided to get out of the service. (1:05:10) When he got out of agent school, he extended for six months. He had given it thought about staying in for a career. Civilian Life (1:06:14)  When he got out of the army, Peter got into the publishing business. His father sold textbooks, but Peter got into the advertising and marketing side of the business. He retired about five years ago. �     Now he runs a small antique business that sets up a booth at a flea market twice a week. Looking back at his military service, it reinforced the discipline that he had when he was growing up. Having a plan and staying organized was also a benefit. His service also gave him the survivor mentality that he applied to the jobs that he had when he got out, he always had an out and nothing that his bosses could do to him was as bad as what he already went through in Vietnam. (1:09:44) He doesn‟t have many psychological problems, except for some survivor‟s guilt. In Vietnam, he lost two very good friends, but he hasn‟t been to the memorial wall. After he got home, he began living his life and buried everything about Vietnam. Now, he is very active with his chapter of Vietnam Veterans and is proud of the men he served with. (1:12:45) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SenftP1550V Title A name given to the resource Senft, Peter (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Senft, Peter Description An account of the resource Peter was born August 27, 1948 in Dallas, Texas. He graduated from high school in 1967 and after trying a couple of colleges he eventually went to the United States Army recruiting station and enlisted. He signed up for intelligence and after basic training he went to intelligence school where he learned how to become a combat order battle intelligence analyst. Peter was sent to Vietnam in 1970 and was assigned to S-2, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division. He spent time on Firebase Ripcord and made it home in May 1971. After returning from Vietnam, Peter became a special agent with the United States Army Intelligence before being discharged. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-10 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df50b30af2668fb9ce8bde368d2f15bf.mp4 0c639a377775bd52b68f75c64fe1d933 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f4031b0f84ca51404819b73ba46c03b7.pdf a00b8df3317aba2fc5e5b1c13056e5a2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 24:18 Ronald James Seigel United States Air Force; 1979 - ? Air Force Security Specialist (0:00) Personal information • Born in Greenville, MI in 1961 • Joined Air Force in 1979 at age of 18 • Basic training in San Antonio, TX then sent to Kelly Air Force Base, TX for service (1:05) Why joined the service • Seemed like a good idea • Nothing else going on in life • Job as Air Force Security (2:06) Typical day • Would work 3 second shifts and then 24 hours off; then would work 3 third shifts and have 3 days off • Kind of like a civilian job but under military control • Air Force Security o Physical security of different buildings, aircraft, and personnel o Keep people from unauthorized areas, etc. o Carried automatic weapons like M-16s and pistols o Authorized to shoot people if necessary (3:55) Training • Training in weapons • Advanced training which dealt with exotic weapons • Went to an air base defense school where learned how to handle the “big” weapons and tactics (4:27) Most memorable moments (story 1) • Nearby auxiliary base • Provided physical security for a squadron that listened to Latin American radio traffic for intelligence purposes o Cuba, other socialist countries • Down the road there was a nuclear weapon storage facility • He was on duty during the third shift. At 3 am, he and other Air Force Security policemen were in the guard house when heard a huge explosion. Everybody hit the floor; the sound came from by the nuclear facility o Explosion was loud enough to “stunt you out of 20 years growth!” • Turns out, somebody had set off a detonator by accident • Luckily, the detonators and warheads are stored in two separate units (6:06) Most memorable moment (story 2) �• • Doing a walk-around a B-52 airplane B-52 landed on base o Kelly Air Base was a linguistics base, meaning that repaired avionic equipment for all types of military planes o Many planes flew in from all over • This B-52 was uploaded with bombs and weapons and thus Air Force Security was required to walk around the plane continuously while it was on the base • In the middle of the night, Seigel was circling the plane and heard a ticking noise; looked up and saw 4 – 50 caliber machine guns following his movement • Someone had accidentally left the tracking system on in the plane and the guns were tracking Seigel's metal in his gun • The four 50 caliber machine guns were not loaded but still a bit unsettling • Radioed somebody; a cornel came and shut off tracking system • Seigel got to go inside and have a look around! (8:04) Iran hostage incident • Served during peacetime, however, in service when Iran hostage incident occurred • 1982 and the ex-Shah of Iran had cancer; ex-Shah was flown to the US for treatment; landed at Seigel’s base – Kelley Air Force Base, TX • Lots of demonstrations around the base • Everyone was on high alert • Seigel and other men in his unit were authorized to shoot to kill (9:16) If had to go to battle • Felt ready • Did so many exercises that wasn’t nervous • Air Force Security Specialists o They are like the ground troops of the Air Force o Defend the air bases o In Vietnam, never lost an air base because of security specialists ƒ “air police” (10:20) Life in the Air Force • Got a little homesick • Went on leave 2-3 times per year • Food was awesome • Barracks were a lot like college dorm rooms o 2 per room o Community bathroom or suite style living (11:52) Hardest part of training • Mental stress because never knew exactly what was going on until half way through • On the run, not a lot of sleep • Training was geared toward seeing how much pressure/ stress someone could take before breaking • Motivation = patriotism • Protect country �• No regrets about enlisting • Favorite part about experience was the people he met (14:15) Most influential person on the base • Staff Sergeant Hubner o Their squad commander • Good guy, a little nutty o Would go dumpster diving to collect cans for money from the recycling plant (15:30) Relaxation • Stereo wars • One guy would turn up stereo a little bit and then another person would turn up theirs a little bit until the barracks area sounded like a war zone because it was so loud (17:00) Rank • Air? – first class o In army comparison, he was like a corporal (17:29) Impact on life • Before the Air Force, felt like the king of the mountain • Service made him stop and think (18:01) Political stance • Middle of the Cold War when served • Early 1980s, things were tense • Needed to put up a tough front for the rest of the world (18:50) After the service • Got married • Career • Had kids (21:00) Final stories • While in the service, got to see extraordinary planes o F-15, Navy fighter plane o Went at super ballistic speed down runway o Once wheels left the group, pilot tilted it straight up like a rocket and it shot up out of sight • Used to stand on top of the buildings at night and watch planes take off (22:50) Steps to achieve rank • Rank is based on time in service • Promotion depended on 2 things o 1. proficiency (done through testing) o 2. positions available � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeigelR Title A name given to the resource Seigel, Ronald James (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seigel, Ronald James Description An account of the resource Ronald Seigel served in the United States Air Force as an Air Force Security Specialist at the Kelley Air Force Base in Texas starting in 1979. Although technically serving during peacetime, his personal account of his time in the service is very interesting. In this interview, Seigel shares stories from the third shift like hearing a nuclear detonator explode at nearby facility and getting accidentally tracked by a B-52's four 50 caliber machine guns. Also, while at Kelley Air Base, Seigel talks about how he witnessed the arrival of the ex-Shah of Iran who was flown to the base to begin cancer treatment at an area hospital. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carey, Lynda (Interviewer) Belaya, Elena (Interviewer) Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military United States. Air Force Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-05-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/21eee94040d833679d76e75554e9ff04.mp4 7adba0e067f043afb57b257e618e315a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5229bb5a1241ff46e0afd36a314a3a0b.pdf 72d7a95f8bea8e5af44519f561ca7bb0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Officer in U. S. Navy Cathy Seifert Length of interview - 02:40:51;02 (00:06) JS: We’re talking today with Cathy Seifert of Kapolei, Hawaii, and you served as an officer in the U.S. Navy for about twenty years here, so why don’t we begin, sort of at the beginning. Where were you born and when? CS: I was born in Os…well, you know, that’s not true. My mother would despair of this but I can never remember whether I was born in St. Mary’s or Blodgett. In Grand Rapids. JS: Grand Rapids, Michigan, then. CS: Grand Rapids. December, 1952. JS: Okay. And what did your family do? CS: My father was in the Army, actually. My mom was a typical ‘50s stay at home wife, at least for about the first seven or eight years of my life. JS: Now did your family move around a lot because your father was in the Army? CS: When I was small. That I can remember, when I was small, we lived in Indiana. Fort Benjamin Harris for a while. One of my brothers was born there. And we lived in Germany. The other brother, the one that’s next to me in age, was born in Germany. But after the Indiana tour, my father moved us to live with my grandparents. My mother’s parents in Alaska, over in Caledonia township. JS: So Alaska Michigan, as opposed to Alaska, Alaska? (01:25) CS: Yes. And then he went on to detached duty at his next duty station and my parents divorced after that. So. We stayed where Mom was from, basically. Moved within a twenty mile radius for quite a while. JS: All right. Now where did you go to high school? CS: I went to high school in Wayland. We moved from my grandparents locality in Caledonia Township to Allegan county when I was in between fourth and fifth grade. JS: Okay. And then, once you graduated from high school, what did you do next? �(01:59) CS: I went to Hope College. For four years, of course. And after I left college, I was kind of at a loose end. I wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to do. I’d taken a couple of examinations, Civil Service examination, Foreign Service examinations. Some of them don’t even exist anymore, in that form. And I was up, called up for interviews, a couple of times. The Social Security Administration skimmed the top one percent off the top of the [PACE] list back then. And, while I was waiting, I worked in a family owned business, over in Barry county, which most people around here probably know. Middlevilla. Worked for the family for a couple of years and lived with my grandparents. In Alaska, Michigan. And I got tired, of just waiting, for something to happen. And the next time I was called for an interview, from the PACE examination, for civil service, it was for the Army. At TARCOM, in Detroit. Warren, technically. And I was hired off that interview. That was in late 1976. And I went there, and I came home on weekends. To my grandparents. And still worked at the same place for extra money. Because basic civil service entry level didn’t really pay very much. (03:26) JS: So what kind of work were you doing at that point? CS: I was a supply cataloger. And the work was okay. It wasn’t particularly interesting, after about the first six months. (laughs) There was no mental challenge left. And TARCOM is an unusual installation in military terms, because at the time, in an installation of about 5000 people, because TARCOM was linked to RADCOM, which was the research division side. There were only about 80 military personnel. Everyone else was civil search. And it represented the amalgamations of functions across several different areas in the country. For instance, the supply cataloging function. Which was quite small. Represented the amalgamation of a group in Ohio. And a group in Detroit. And a group from somewhere else. There were people…there were older guys who commuted to Ohio from there. JS: So was the military basically contracting at this point? Sort of post-Vietnam, and… CS: Yes. And the interesting part of it was, it had been so long that they’d hired civil servants, at this particular installation, everybody had been there for a long time. That the contracts were Vietnam-era contracts. So they were written in such a way that if you were drafted it wasn’t breach of contract. But it didn’t say drafted. It said if you went into, if you were in military service, it did not constitute a breach of contract. And they had to hold your job open for you, for five years. Because of that. Well, I wasn’t particularly happy in Detroit. You know. I didn’t grow up in a major urban area. I grew up outside town. And Detroit was a fairly miserable place, unless you have a lot of money and can live in a good area. And a basic entry level civil servant can’t do that. So I started poking around and I found out this little loophole in the contract and I went down and I talked to a Navy recruiter. Never even considered the Army, because I had bad associations with my father’s military service. But I’d always felt safe in a military environment. Living on post, and that kind of thing. I was just old enough that I could remember that. (05:41) JS: Right. �CS: Last time. So I talked to the Navy recruiter. I considered the Air Force. And I was looking at recruiting materials. And at the time, it was in 1977, and my grandfather had died in January, as the result of an accident. Had the accident and went in the hospital. And then had the heart attack while he was in the hospital. And so my grandmother was by herself. She was not happy with the fact that I was considering military service. She did not say “oh, you shouldn’t do that.” She didn’t lecture. The only thing she said to me was “you know you’re not going to be entirely happy if you do this, because if you start moving around, you’re never going to be able to have anything that’s nice.” (laughs) Everything gets battered in moving. So I put it off for a while because I knew she didn’t like it. And then I looked at it again. Went and talked to a recruiter. Basically went through all of the interview process that was done at the recruiting station, for officer personnel. And, I was accepted…I found out that I was accepted about three weeks after my grandmother died. So I never had to tell her. (pause) I was sworn in in February of 1978 But I didn’t have a class date, for Officer school, which was in Newport, Rhode Island. For most people… (07:10) CS: In those days, officer school was split between Rode Island and Pensacola, Florida. The folks who went through Pensacola, were aviation candidates. And selected officer specialty groupings that did a lot of work directly with the aviation community. So, like the intelligence community. Those people went through aviation officer school. Which is what you saw in “Officer and Gentleman,” with the drill instructors that yelled at you. And the dunker tank and all of that. That’s aviation officer candidate school. Officer candidate school in Newport did not have Marine Corp drill instructors. I went in March. I reported on St. Patrick’s Day in March. And they deliberately do not tell you what is going to happen to you. Because they don’t want you to know that there’s actually a set time frame during which they’re going to treat you…I don’t want to say badly, but in a way that people would interpret as badly. (08:17) JS: Now when you’re going out there, are you starting, is there a whole group of you starting at the same time? CS: Yes. JS: All right. CS: Um. And at that time, there were several different ways to do that. In Newport, Rhode island, you had the entire range of military personnel. In those days, there were still four destroyers. In Newport. So you actually still had some active forces there. You also had the Naval War College, so you had very senior officer personnel who were going through classes there. You had Surface Office Warfare School, which was a post-commissioning school that in those days only young men went to, before they were allowed to go to sea. It basically taught them more than you learned in Officer candidate school about rules of the road. And what you were allowed to do. And more of the technical things you needed to know in order to be a ship driver. And then you also had Officer candidate. You also had “navsters,” which were a precommissioning level at the high school level. In the summer, they would be in there. For �several weeks. And you had what we would refer to as “oysters,” Officer Instruction School. Officer Instruction School was for people who already had medical qualifications. Who were direct commissions. They did not have to go through officer candidate school. But they did need instruction on how to wear their uniform and what the hair regulations were, and some sort of minor physical training. (laughs) Officer School, the normal officer candidate school, could run anywhere from 200 people to a thousand, at any one time. (10:05) JS: How many started with you? CS: We were quite small. And the reason was rather unique. The 200th candidate school class went through just before us, so they were still there. When we got there. And there was a class ahead of them that was being commissioned. The 200’s were commissioned in June, and they deliberately left a gap. So that there would be a four week period where there would only be one class on board. Not something they usually did. That was because, traditionally up until that point, the were two classes…two companies…the classes were divided into companies… JS: Right. CS: Quote, military companies. That were associated with each other all the time. Two of the companies were all female. The rest of the companies were all male. During the four week period when we were the only class on board, they integrated the companies. They scrambled all the people. And put…integrated them in teaching sections. They were divided in half so that these…four of the companies usually had the same classes together and the other four companies had classes together. So they took a women’s company in each group and they inserted men into it and took women out of it and out them in other companies, and taught us what the men had been taught up until that point. Which was how to carry weapons properly. And do the manual of arms. For parades and that kind of thing. (11:35) JS: Now what proportion of your class was female? CS: Approximately, one quarter. JS: Okay. Now, is it your understanding that prior to this integration that there were a lot of things that they taught the men that they did not teach the women, or… how did that work? CS: It may have been that women were doing things that women had never been expected to do. In a full duty status. That involved, mainly, handling of weapons. Okay. The real split was after you were commissioned. Because you did not go to warfare qualification schools. You only went to a more limited range of duty assignments. They were planning to change that. That was one of the reasons that they made the shift at that point. They were already planning to integrate the military academies at that point, but they had not done so. JS: Right. �CS: The class before us, the women had had to sign paperwork that indicated that they knew that it was possible in the future they could be assigned to sea duty. We did not. They limited the numbers for a while. Because they knew it would be difficult. They would have to do it in very small numbers. Initially. So they said, okay, it’s not going to be necessary for this class or the next class. We’ve already got enough women in the previous class that we’ll have enough people to experiment with, basically. (12:59) JS: Now how long was the Officer candidate school session? CS: When I went through, it was sixteen weeks. It changes over time. It’s ranged, to my knowledge, while I was in, any place between twelve and sixteen weeks. JS: Do you have a sense of how long they had been admitting women into Officer Training School by the time you got there? CS: Not a really good one. I had a supervisor later who had been in the first group of women that they had sent through to the more remote duty stations. And they did it the same way they did ship integration later. They sent pairs. And they sent the officers first. Before they started amalgamating enlisted women. Mostly because it’s easier to change officer quarter accommodations than it is to change enlisted accommodations. So that you have isolated bathrooms and that kind of thing. JS: Right. You’re not packing large numbers of officers together in a barracks or something like that. (13:59) CS: Right. Right. You might have two. You might have four, that have to share. Depending on where you are. And you can…whether or not, it’s an accurate summation, it was, it was believe there was less of a problem to have them using the same bathroom if they were officers. JS: Okay. CS: A bit silly. But I know it was pre-1972. I’m not sure how long before that it was. JS: Now, in general, when you’re in officer candidate school, how well did they seem to deal with having women candidates? Was it something they were used to? Did things flow pretty naturally? CS: They were fairly used to it. Some of the instructors were female. The company officers, the officer that was in charge, taking care of problems or informational needs, in each of the companies, for the female companies, the company officers were also female. As a matter of fact, they were combined forces because we had two British officers, who were company officers. One male and one female. And so we had comparative information on how other countries handled their service integration. �(15:15) JS: And what do you think morale was like, with the students? Were they looking forward to this? Were they excited about it, or… CS: Mostly. They found it interesting. You know, it was an all-volunteer force. It was enough post-Vietnam that nobody was worried about that kind of thing. Um, some people were more nervous than others. Some people were just miserable at school and wanted it to be over. I remember, during the timeframe when I went through, um, you basically had your classes. And your PT, and everything during the week. And you also stood duty. They taught you that as part of your schooling. So they had watches that you had to stand, so that you learned how you were supposed to handle those and what the penalties were if you didn’t do it properly. We… at that time, we were allowed Saturday and Sunday off. And you had permission to leave the base. And you did not have to wear a uniform, if you were an officer candidate. Unlike enlisted personnel, who when they finally received permission to leave the base while their still in basic schooling, still had to wear their uniforms. And, allowed without supervision. And that was okay. That gave you a break. You could go to MacDonald’s or something like that. And just not worry. If you wanted to, you could get a room in a local hotel and trash the place out instead of keeping it neat. The way you did. You were subject to inspection at any time. There were restrictions on it. But you were told what those were. One of the interesting things that I found about it, and when you first reported, they made sure that on every desk, and in every room, there was a notebook that had a piece of paper in it already, that said “priorities.” And, so that you understood that if you were ill, a medical priority came before anything you had to do as part of Officer Candidate School. They didn’t want people pretending to be tough. And making a situation worse. Sometimes it was a little hard to remember. (17:33) CS: So you had regular classes. Taught you things like celestial navigation that no one ever uses unless they go to sea. And none of the instruments work. Um, basic engineering concepts. Just things that had to do with Navy administration, how the paperwork works. How ranks and so forth are structured. You had regular PT. You had things that changed intermittently, you know… JS: PT is physical training? CS: (shakes head yes). Um hmm. Because you had to be able to pass what in those days were referred to as “JFKs.” Because he was the one that instituted the standard of fitness. If you remember. Everyone should be able to do certain things. So they had a similar set of things for the military and you had to be able to pass your “JFKs.” So it was a mile and… actually that was one of the differences between men and women at that timeframe. Is the number of things you had to do was different. For instance, you had x amount of time to run a particular distance. For men, it was a mile and a half. For women, it was 1.35, in the same amount of time. (18:42) JS: Okay. �CS: So I was always very proud of myself, I was never terribly physically fit, but I managed to do the men’s distance and a little more, in the time we were allotted. We also had mandatory swim training. This was the Navy. JS: Right. CS: So, that’s where I learned to swim. (laughs) And as part of your swim training, you also had particular sessions where you had, they had you jump off from a high level, in uniform. And basically, to be able to take your clothes off to inflate them so they were floatable, in case you didn’t have something like that. And you also had drown-proofing, which was how not to expend energy in the water. So it was to teach you to float upright, without treading water, any more than absolutely necessary. So that you didn’t expend energy doing that. It was interesting. (19:44) JS: So how well did you hold up under all of this kind of training and stuff? CS: I had no problems with classes. I was fairly miserable about some of the specific aspects. I remember actually giving up and calling my mother at one point, just to tell her I was miserable. (laughs) It’ll be over soon. It can’t be over soon enough. I had a compatible person that I shared the room with, fortunately. She and I were the odd balls in the bunch. At that time frame, commissioning programs tended to attract, at least for the women, people from very stable, traditional backgrounds. So two parent families, who’d never had any hardship. Um, that did not apply to me, coming from a divorced family. And after they divorced, my mother worked in a factory. It also didn’t apply to my roommate. She had been married, before she came into the program. And divorced. And she smoked, oh, absolutely unacceptable. Which did not bother me because my mother smoked. So…we were okay when we were together. (20:59) JS: Now were you allowed to smoke in the room? CS: Yes. You were. Back in those days. The buildings didn’t go non-smoking for a very long time. JS: Were the people in your class from all over the country? Did they tend to come from certain areas, or… CS: No. They were from all over the country. JS: And were a lot of them from the Navy families? CS: No, actually. Amazingly enough. Most of the ones from Navy families didn’t happen to go through in my group. Now most of the ones from Navy families, or other military families, did go through officer training candidate school, cause you couldn’t get into the academy. JS: Right. �(21:39) CS: They had all looked at that. Now one of, not my classmates, but the class before me, and she wound up being with me in my first duty station, was from a Navy family, a military family. Her father was a Marine corp colonel, her mother was an Army corp nurse, and her brother went to the Navy academy and was a Navy colonel. So she’s still in. She’s a captain. She’s had command twice. JS: All right. Now, um, what did you do then after you completed officer training school? CS: There’s a selection process that’s run by detailing personnel, assignments personnel, if you’re in the Army. That figure out what to do with groups of people, by their rank. They know what the requirements are, at the very basic level. They might take a minor look at your background, but the assumption is that you know whatever it is that you learned in officer candidate school. A lot of the men, out of my officer candidate school, were assigned to do surface warfare training, because they were going into the surface fleet. There were specialists that went through, I think there was one guy in my class, who had a different…officer designator tells you what subject community you’re in, and there are different communities. So there are warfare communities. There are surface warfare communities. The aviation warfare community. There are special subsets of that. So the special forces guys fall into that group. And then there’s restricted line, as opposed to unrestricted line. (23:14) CS: Restricted line people did things like civil affairs and oceanography and intelligence. A number of things. And then there were staff officers, who were supply corp officers. And people who went into the medical community. Specialists like that. Medical community was handled separately, because they weren’t commissioned as ensigns. They were commissioned at a higher pay grade. But everyone else went through this process where their detailing community, which was in Washington at the time. It’s in Tennessee now, would look at them and say, okay, I have requirements for, in these areas, with these kinds of backgrounds. And they would…you were allowed to fill out a sheet that said where you would be interested in going or what you would be interested in doing, and they would try to take that into account, but then the Navy came first. You got assigned wherever. So in my case, the assignments list was posted and I was going to be going to Naval Facility, Guam. (24:19) CS: Now I’m sitting there and scratching my head, and one of my classmates was a SEAL, prior enlisted who was being commissioned, and he knew what it involved. And he said well, they won’t be able to tell you anything about it because what they do is classified. But you’ll enjoy it. And he was right. I enjoyed the work very much. So much so that I basically stayed in that subset of the community for about twelve years before I did anything else. JS: Okay, now how did they get you up to Guam? CS: Oh, they issue you a plane ticket? JS: Did you fly a commercial plane or fly military aircraft? �CS: That particular case, it was a charter flight. I mean, they flew me from Baltimore. Well, from Newport to Baltimore to the west coast. And then picked up a charter flight that went out to Guam. From there. (25:12) JS: And how did Guam strike you when you got there? What did it look like to you? CS: (smiles) It was fascinating. You know, being from Michigan, here you are on a tropical island for the first time. It was actually kind of a good way to do a non-mainland first duty station. Because you didn’t have to adjust language. You didn’t have to adjust money. But it was still a long long ways from home. It was a totally different climate. I discovered that I adored tropical islands. (laughs) The only thing that truly truly annoyed me about it is that it had nothing but the most wretched bookstore you’ve ever seen in your life. (Laughter) And they didn’t even do much in the way of ordering for you. But back in those days, the Navy exchange system was still associated with a bookstore chain called Stars and Stripes, that didn’t belong to the exchange but that was what they did. They brought books into overseas installations. So, you had some choice there, even though you still couldn’t order. It was a very small installation that I was at. There were only 100 people where I was at. I did enjoy the work. I didn’t particularly respect my boss. Not my immediate boss, but the commanding officer. He was an early select for command. An aviator. Who really wasn’t interested in what we did for a living. He had flown in an electronic collections bird, and that was what he was really interested in. even the junior enlisted folks noticed. I remember that one once said something to their section officer, who was the Navy family officer I mentioned earlier. And she told me about it afterward. She said, Seaman so-and-so looked at me and said, why doesn’t the skipper care about anything we do? (27:12) CS: Now the XO did. He was from a more diverse background in terms of his assignments. And he was actually senior to the CO, and he did care about what was going on. And he didn’t really care about the format you had for giving it to him. He was more interested in whether you knew what was going on and could just tell him. JS: Can you describe what it was that you were doing? CS: To a much greater extent than I used to be able to. They just, in the early ‘90s, they decided to declassify the basic mission statement. So what we did was, when I first went in it was referred to by the acronym SoSys, the Sound Surveillance System. And became the IUSS, the Integrated under Surveillance System, when they added different sensors to it. But basically what it amounted to was passive anti-submarine warfare. So we had sensors in the water that were permanently there. And we listened. Back in those days, “listening” was an accurate verb more so than it became later. Because in the first generation systems, you could still plug a set of sound powered headphones into the machinery and actually listen to the microphones that were in the ocean. But they lost that capability later as the machinery that supported it and displayed the signal in a visual format, so that you could look at it and make a determination of whether you were seeing submarines or something else. It became more computerized. It �passed through more paths. In order to be processed. And you lost the ability to listen to the microphones. (29:02) JS: Now, did you detect much of anything? Could you… CS: Oh, yes. Yes. JS: Could you tell a submarine from a whale and things like that? CS: They taught you how to do that. After I left Officer Candidate School, because of where I was going, I was sent first to a school in Norfolk, which was why I was flying out of Baltimore, to go there. And it was basically the same information they taught to the enlisted personnel, in the school that they went to. Anti-submarine warfare was big business, from…shortly before that point. About five, six years before that point, well, a little longer than that. It existed, they started putting in the sound surveillance system in the early ‘50s. that’s when they started snatching land from people that didn’t want to give it up. And putting the stations there. Running the cables out to sea, with the microphones, with the cable layers. And listening. But it became…there was a lot more emphasis on it from about the mid ‘70s until the early ‘90s. and once the Soviet threat went away, as far as blue water capability, they de-emphasized it extremely rapidly. It was part of the amalgamation of forces as part of the drawdown. (30:23) CS: But we saw a fair amount of activity. Not a lot where we were. The way we pointed wasn’t toward major Soviet activity, although we picked it up in certain areas. What was important was that there were stations in different locations and because you were a passive system rather than an active system, the way that you located things was crosshairs. Between, you know. And it was still a probability area. It was still some place in this area between this area, there is a probability that there is a submarine of this kind because it’s making this kind of noise. (31:06) JS: Now, do you have a sense of what the larger purpose of all of this was? What good did the data actually do us? CS: Actually, we were fairly well informed for junior people, that way. Because at a very junior level, not my first duty station but my second, because I was on Guam for seventeen months and from there I went to Norfolk to the processing center. The next level up. Where they got the information from all their stations in their basin, looked at the data and made a determination as to where they thought submarines were. So you got to watch the reporting process and who it was reported to, and they made sure that it was pounded into your head, with a mallet if necessary, that if you make a decision that says the center of the probability area for what you believe to be a submarine is outside this particular area, if it’s any closer to the U.S. mainland, you are going to push a button to release a message that’s going to cost the United States government a million dollars. Be sure that you know what you’re doing. JS: Okay. �(01:32:18) CS: Because if we pushed that button and said the submarine was this much closer, they would move the entire East Coast strategic bombing force back, away from the East coast farther. So, yeah, their information got used. JS: Did that kind of thing happen? CS: Oh, absolutely. It was always a big deal. You had to call and tell the chain of command, when you were moving, when I say outside a certain area, it was normal for Soviet submarines to patrol within a predictable big ocean area. If they came closer than that, then they were violating their own normal patterns, then, potentially, and there could be a reason to be concerned. JS: How regular a thing was that? CS: Not regular. It might happen once every couple of years. I can remember it happening twice, while I was in Norfolk. JS: And how long did they have you in Norfolk, that first time? (01:33:23) CS: That was twenty seven months. It was an odd length of tour, because it those days…it went up and down. Sometimes it was, you were automatically looked at for accession from the Naval Reserve, which is what you were commissioned in, to the regular Navy, and sometimes you had to apply. At a certain point in your career. And it was between when you were an 02 and an 03, that you did that. Well, because you didn’t have a commitment beyond your original four year commitment, usually, it made your tours a bit odd in length. The second time around. Normal tours aren’t like that, unless you’re extended for some Navy reason. You get assigned somewhere for a year, or twenty four months or thirty six months, especially if you’re married. Or it’s an especially good duty station. Like Pearl. JS: What sort of duty station is Norfolk? It’s a lot of Navy there. CS: The Navy defines things as, in two different parameters. In two different axes. One is inconus/outconus. And the other is preferred/non-preferred. Okay. And within preferred/nonpreferred, there’s preferred shore/non-preferred shore, and preferred sea/non preferred sea. At different times. This changes from time to time, the way they define it. And things drop in and out of it, with categories, so. I’m not in touch with what’s going on with it right now. I haven’t been for a while. But Norfolk was considered preferred shore. Because it was a fairly developed area. It was, there were a lot of different things that you could select from, and stay in the area, if that met the needs of the Navy. Unlike the Air Force, which allowed you to homestead. The Navy discouraged that. (01:35:24) CS: The Air Force allowed it. You simply had to accept the fact that if you were going to homestead at a place where there wasn’t a slot at the next promotion level, for you to be �promoted into, you weren’t going to be promoted, as long as you stayed there. The Navy was transitioning in the early ‘80s out of the mindset that you see in a lot of the old movies, where you had the old salt who was still very junior in terms of responsibility, had been in the Navy for a long time and was the “sea daddy” for the young guys coming in, to make sure they knew what was going on and the way things worked. They were trying to discourage that. They wanted, they wanted progression and skills. And “up or out” for them. So there was a lot of legislation, which also affected the officer community in the early ‘80s. There was an act called DOPMA (The Defense Officer Personnel Management Act of 1980) and it changed the rules. The rules up until that point had been, if you came into the service, in a commissioned status, and you went regular, once you went regular, you didn’t have any time limit on your contract, your first set of four years commitment. Then you had to ask to leave. You were, you were considered at certain points for promotion. But if you made it to 04, you were safe. (01:37:06) JS: Now, what do 03, 04 refer to specifically? CS: The pay grades. It’s easier when you’re talking multi-service type things to use pay grades when you’re talking rather than use ranks because of course the Air Force and Marine Corps and the Army all use a set of ranks that are similar to each other, in the way that they’re verbalized and the Navy’s is different. JS: Yeah. To be a Captain in the Navy is quite different from being a Captain in the Army or the Marines. CS: Oh, absolutely. So, an 01 in the Navy is an ensign. 01 in the other services is a 2nd Lietenant. Of course, if you want to get really screwed up, you started throwing the British Navy in there. (laughs) But, 04, which is a Major in the other services, is a Lt. Commander. If you made it as far as that, then they had to let you stay as far as 20. Once you were, accepted a promotion under the DOPMA Act, if you didn’t hit a gate and you were selected after two opportunities for selection, they could force you out. (01:38:19) JS: Hit a gate? What does that mean? CS: Ah, meet a certain…make it to the time frame where you were going to be considered for promotion to the next rank. I tend to use that term, even though it really isn’t used that much in the U.S. military. It’s a British term. But it amounts to the same thing. You’re considered for promotion at particular lengths of service. Basically, it stays the same but it varies a little bit on a curve, depending on the size of the grouping available at any given time for a consideration. As an example. In 1978 when I was commissioned, the maximum age for commissioning, you had to be before commissioning, before your twenty-sixth birthday. That was the last year, by the way. I was 26 that year. Not until winter. But in ’79, ’80, and I think ’81, they raised the maximum commissioning age to 30, or … I think it was thirty, before, for some of the limited type duty assignments. And one of my friends, who is my age, came in a year later, because they had changed that. Well, that has an effect on how many people you have available in what’s called a ‘year group,” all of the people that were commissioned that fiscal year. So year group �’79 was much larger than year group ’78. So they didn’t consider all of them at the same time, when you start getting into the higher ranks, it hasn’t thinned out as much, so you have more people for consideration. So they may choose to split that group and consider part of them in this year (gestures with hands) and part of them in this year (gestures with hands). For promotion, to the next pay grade. (01:40:38) CS: In my case, it’s almost automatic to make 02, Lt. Junior Grade. It’s two years from your commissioning date. JS: Right. CS: And, when I went through, 3% of the people didn’t make it. Whether it was for some specific reason, medical, performance, very bad performance, not to make 02. Guys in those days would actually react, “my god, I knew a three percent-er.” (laughs) Cause nobody knew somebody that didn’t make it. And, it was almost that high, for promotion to 03. Then they started cutting, because at 03, then people could get out. They didn’t normally, they didn’t have to go over and become regular Navy. So you’d lose a group of people that way, who didn’t go beyond their original commitment. And, but that wasn’t enough people for the number of people, which they’d make a determination based on the number of slots the Navy had at that grade. And in those communities they needed to promote. How many aviators do I need to promote, how many surface warfare guys do I need to promote to 04. And so they had boards, in those days, in Washington, and in Tennessee, now. Who look at your performance. And they rank everybody. Who was eligible. And they’d put everybody in three piles. I never sat on a one but I know people who have and they do it the same way all of the time. These obviously make it. These obviously don’t make it. Okay, let’s talk about these guys, which is the huge amount in the middle. (01:42:00) JS: Now, if you don’t make it, can you still stay in at your current rank? I mean, can you still stay on indefinitely or do they try to push you out? CS: Not indefinitely. That was the change that was made under DOPMA. You could stay, before DOPMA. You could stay after the first look, even after DOPMA. Cause you got two primary looks. When you were actually considered to be in the zone. And they actually looked at you sometimes below the zone, the year before that, and above the zone, the year after that, pre-DOPMA, but once you hit the second look after DOPMA went into effect, they could force you out within six months. (01:42:41) JS: And did you know people who had that happen to them? CS: It happened to me. I was in the general unrestricted aligned community. A lot of the women who were commissioned, most of them as a matter of fact, who weren’t in specialty groups, couldn’t go into warfare community units at that point. You couldn’t become a surface warfare officer or an aviation officer or a submarine officer. But you were still an unrestricted �line officer, meaning you were in the line of secession to command. If there were catastrophes going on. So they would send you to support positions that were defined as needing any unrestricted line officer, because some of the jobs were defined that way. And that’s how you got into integrated undersea warfare, and training commands, and administrative duties, of various kinds. And communications. Because communications officers were not a specialty at that point. And eventually, as we progress and there are more people, more women are being allowed into the academies. They reached a point where they said, okay, we now have a viable pipe that goes into the warfare communities. So do we actually need unrestricted, general unrestricted line officers anymore? And the answer was, well, maybe not. Let’s look. What functions do they perform that are vital to what we are doing. And that’s the way they came out in four groupings. (01:44:20) CS: There was administration, communications, and specialty services, like anti-submarine warfare, and we, on the technical side, anti-submarine warfare and communications, were much smaller than this big group of people who did administrative things. JS: Right. CS: And they said, okay, these are viable, but we need to figure out whether we’re going to change the community to be something else. What size does it need to be. How many people do we need in it, and at what levels. And that’s going to take us a couple of years, cause we have to do it as a study. Cause they talked to the Chief of Communications and Admiral [Kelso] said, okay. This was in the early ‘90s, when the drawdown was happening. (01:45:01) JS: Right. CS: After the (Berlin) Wall fell down. And the Navy, the…all the services were cutting and everybody did it differently. The Air Force just went “Whack,” and got rid of a whole bunch of pilots, all at once. They didn’t let people who were going through [ROTCI], which is one of their training programs, they just didn’t let them go into pilot programs, unless they were superb at what they did. The Marine Corp did it, it all fell at different points, depending on what part of the service you implemented. The Navy did it in very measured fashion, with cuts over five years. But the community I was in had an exemption, because they were trying to figure out what size it was going to be. And what they were going to call it. Eventually, they decided to call it Fleet Support, and it, instead of being a designator for a number for a unit…Surface warfare officers were an 1110. General and restricted line officers were 1100. They were going to transition us to a restricted line community, 1700. And they did that so that the last three or four years I was in, I was a 1700, but they switched it back after I retired, because it didn’t work well, and are doing it differently now. But, at the point that the five years ran out, it was the last year that the Navy was going to make any cuts. And they looked at it and they said, okay…I was already an 05 by then, so retirement eligible, the whole works, they said we’re going to need to cut, I think it was thirty three 05s, and half a dozen 04s, this year, that’s our share for the Navy. So that’s the way things stood, without retirement papers being in. So a whole bunch of �retirement papers went in. And I was in the zone that year. For selection to 06. And I was also in the zone for cutting. JS: Right. (01:47:10) CS: So if I had made 06, on the first look, I would have still been in for another, whatever I decided to stay, three, four years. But I didn’t. And the boards met at the same time, that year. The 06 board and the selective early retirement board. JS: So you got downsized. CS: I got downsized. JS: Okay. Well, let’s back up a bit, off of the bureaucratic angle quite so much. You were based, you go to Guam, you go to Norfolk. Where do you go after that? CS: Japan. JS: All right. And where do they send you in Japan? CS: I was, I worked out of the Naval base in Yokosuka. And I worked with a special operations detachment that was part of the staff. It was really very interesting in a physical environment sense because it was before a lot fo the new structures were built. You got to watch the way the relationship worked between the Japanese forces and the U.S. forces, and the two governments, about which had permission to do. Because the base officially belongs to Japan and they own all the buildings and so they have to agree with what you do with the buildings. I worked with the rest of the operations department…most of the headquarters staff worked in a building, maybe a quarter of a mile inside the front gate. Including the Admiral. But the Operations department worked across the parking lot. In a cave. With the construction on the inside. And it was one of the caves that the Japanese used to protect forces from bombing during World War II. There were lower level of the cave. I think there actually used to be a hospital facility there. That were flooded. And the Command Master Chief, the most senior enlisted person on the staff, had permission to take small groups down, a couple of times a year. If you wanted, he’d take you below on a little tour. So you could see the scorpions in the water. (laughs) Or whatever. (01:49:11) CS: So, I worked for a commander who was a surface warfare qualified gentleman, who had been in Vietnam who had been [Rivereen] forces. Mostly, there were four officers who worked for him. Two women, two men. We traded duties with each other because we had to go TDY on a regular basis. Temporary Duty in another location. So one of us would be there, of each group, and the other one would be away, doing other things. JS: And were you doing similar kinds of work as before? Listening? CS: Yes. �JS: And what was the environment like just to live in, in Japan, at that point? (01:49:53) CS: Fascinating. It really was. I had the best of both worlds because if you were in Yokosuka, you had quarters. Bachelors quarters. And you kept those, while you were gone. So your stuff was there. And while you were away, you actually lived on the Japanese economy. So I lived in what would have been a residence big enough for three or four people, a family, a small family in Japan. But it (looking around), it would fit in this room. The entire thing. So, so I had to live with what was typical Japanese country plumbing at the time. I had a wonderful bath. I had an ofuros, which was kind of cross between a bathtub and a hot tub, the way we understand. It didn’t work the same way. You would fill it up with water and then it had a gas supplied heat to the piping underneath, so it was incredibly hot. And you left that on the whole time so it stayed hot. So it was a soaking tub. And you had a shower head in the wall besides that. Because you cleaned off before you got in the tub. I learned how to do public bathing in Japan because, you can. And it’s isolated by sex, so it’s not expected to be a problem. However the toilet facilities were interesting. Basically, an indoor outhouse. So it was a little addition on the exterior of the building and you accessed it from inside. But it was separate enough that it wasn’t an issue. It was a standard fixture, but it didn’t have plumbing attached. JS: Okay. (01:51:54) CS: It worked just like an outhouse and someone would come in once a year, the landlord had someone come in and pump the thing out. (laughs) So, it was interesting. I had to learn enough Japanese so that I could buy groceries locally. It was very frustrating. You couldn’t buy anything to read. Everything of course was in kanji. Usually traveled by the national line trains, when you could. Except for places where you knew where you were going. Because there are the publicly owned national lines. And then there are lines that are privately owned. They’re in competition. Well, the public lines, because they are publicly owned, nationally owned, have to have the characters that identify the station in both Japanese characters and in English language characters, in romaji. So you could read the station name. JS: Right. (01:52:53) CS: so where the private lines share the station, it’s not an issue. But there were a few stations that were only on that private line, and if you didn’t know where you were, you wouldn’t know where you were or how to get off. The base trained you in how to get around. It was part of intercultural training. It was interesting. They would, they had you for three days when you first reported and they would expose you to various things that you could expect and tell you what not to do. You know, the standard gesture you make with babies. You know, I’ve got your nose (illustrates this). Don’t ever do that in Japan. JS: Okay. �CS: Never never never do that in Japan. It’s obscene. Some mother will lose her cool and call for assistance rather than whack you over the head, like an American mother would with her purse, for doing that to her child. They taught you the difference in physical characteristics. Body language is different in Japan. (Illustrates by pointing back and forth) This is me and you, talking. In the U.S. if you wanted someone to come to you, you would do this. In Japan, that’s only for animals and small children. JS: Okay. (01:54:07) CS: This is for grownups. This is not bye-bye. This is come. (can not see hand motions on video.) JS: In general, how well did the Americans on your base seem to get along with the Japanese? CS: Fairly well. Most of the guys were assigned to ships that came in and out of Yokosuka. They liked the fact that they could out on the town on the [Hunch], which was the main street that had small restaurants and bars on it. Just to have a good time. But most of them adjusted quite well. The stuff that you see in the news occasionally, is, as shocking as it is, is that shocking because it’s so unusual. JS: You mean, like attacks on girls or things like that. CS: (nods head) Yes. The neat thing about Japan in those days, one of the common things that was discussed was, and they’d even tell you in intercultural relations, that a lot of Japanese society in the early ‘80s, cause I got there in ’82, and I left in ’84, were still like the ‘50s, in the United States. One of the things they taught you, and I don’t remember it anymore, was the phrase to yell if anybody bothered you. Because every man in the area would converge and shoo him away. (01:55:25) JS: Now, how long were you based there? CS: A little over two years. I was actually due to rotate in July in ’84 and stayed until November so that they could have an overlap with the person coming behind me. No gap. Interesting. JS: Okay. And where did you go after that? CS: Back to Norfolk, to the exact same place I had left. But to a different job in the organization. So I was doing similar things. And I was there for a little over two years. And then I transferred to Pearl Harbor. JS: Okay. And what was working in Pearl Harbor like? �CS: Oh. Pearl was great. It deteriorated in terms of being a tropical island environment since then. Because urban area, ten lanes of traffic on the freeway. Most people don’t associated that with Oahu, but it wasn’t like that then. The freeway was only four lanes in its busiest location. I lived a ways outside town. (01:56:30) CS: There’s all of the history associated with Pearl. I mean, when I was first stationed there, the Missouri wasn’t there yet. But, because she was still running around…because they’d recommissioned that battleships during that time frame. But you know, got to go look at the Arizona, and climb Diamond Head, and look at the emplacements up there, where the guns were. The bullet holes are still in the building, that Pacific Headquarters is in on the Air Force base. And you can look at them. One of my friends who lives there, Connie, was born there and spent a large amount of her youth there. Her father was an Air Force chaplain. And she ran the local USO facility, for a while, at the airport, and has all these old post cards of where the old facilities are, and World War II pictures of different things that used to happen then. (01:57:28) CS: It was Guam, only it was much better. It smelled a little better. It had a greater variety of vegetation. It had gorgeous beaches everywhere. The traffic was not bad. Then. JS: Better bookstores? CS: Oh, yeah. As a matter of fact, when I was living in Japan, one of the guys who was on the staff, but not in Operations. He was in Intelligence. He used to come to Hawaii four times a year to go to the bookstore at Pearl Ridge Mall. (Laughter) He would buy like five boxes of books and they’d mail them all to him. But yes, definitely better bookstores. (01:58:06) JS: And were you continuing to do the same kind of work that you had been doing? CS: No, actually. I was assigned to the PAC Fleet staff. So the senior operational Navy officer on the island, he was a 4 star…there was another Navy 4 star on the island but he was in charge of the joint command up at Camp Smith, and had Army and Air Force and whatever working for him, and was in charge of a geographical area at the time, as opposed to being in charge of all of the fleet forces in the Pacific Ocean. So I was on his staff. But I was in intelligence. I wasn’t in operations. I had asked for… I tried to figure out a way to describe what I wanted on my duty preference sheet, and I described it as technical intelligence. So my literal minded detail went through and hit on something that was defined as something that was label “technical intelligence” on the Fleet staff. So I wound up there, on a job where I eventually handled the control of what intelligence was disseminated to fleet units, afloat. You know, if you wanted to be added to a message distribution for something, you came in with a message and said...dah dah dah dah. And I would say, okay, or, no, you’re not supposed to have that by policy. And if I said yes, I would just send a message saying okay, and send it to the right people. And the person who had release authority would sign it. That was my Navy 06 that I worked for. (01:59:41) �CS: And, if I said no, I had to add justification paperwork to it. And get the Admiral to sign it. Because you weren’t allowed to say no. Without permission. You had to have a very good reason. So I did that. I handled Intelligence Exchange Conferences, the coordination of them. So any foreign arrangements we had with foreign Navies to share information, usually involved having a conference once or twice a year, to talk about common concerns. JS: Right. (02:00:15) CS: And I would handle those up, for the 06. JS: What countries were involved in that? CS: We, ah, we had formal relationships with Japan, of course. And with Korea. We have mutual defense treaties with both of them. As a matter of fact, five of the seven standing mutual defense treaties that the United States has are in the Pacific. And those are two of them. We also had a regular meeting with Thailand, one of the other formal defense arrangements. And a regular meeting with our Four-eyes allies. Canada, Great Britain and Australia. That was the fun one. (laughs) Everyone spoke English and got into all kinds of mischief. (02:01:05) JS: Was it generally interesting work, relative to what you had been doing, or… CS: I found parts of it more interesting than others. There were things about setting up Intelligence Exchange Conferences that were vastly boring and were basically secretarial work. But you had also had to make the decisions that went with them, which secretaries weren’t allowed to do. Some of it was… I enjoyed the exposure to the Intelligence community. Enough so that I…and because I was in this job, I… the secondary, technical skill that you earned with what I did in passive anti-submarine warfare was also intelligence related, it gave me what was called a sub-specialty, in intelligence. Two of them, one for joint intelligence and one for technical. So I was allowed to list intelligence in a section on my duty preference sheet for things that I would like to do in the future. And I kept myself on that list for a long time and it wound up affecting my final duty assignment, too. (02:02:12) JS: Okay. Now how long were you in Pearl Harbor? CS: Longer than I was supposed to be. We ended up going through a time frame while I was there when they were doing fiddly weird things with the budget and they wound up extending everybody in the Navy where they were for an additional two months, and then there was an additional two months besides that that got added on to me, so I was actually there, instead of thirty six months, I was there almost forty. I was there for thirty nine. I enjoyed myself. JS: So when did you leave there then? CS: I left at the end of April in 1990, and went to California. �JS: And where did they base you there? CS: Naval Facility, Centerville Beach. Which is the same type of duty that I had been doing, but I was an Operations officer rather than someone who was directing the watch. And that base…well, it’s silly to say it’s not there anymore, but it’s not there anymore. Physically, it’s still there but it was decommissioned as a base shortly after I left, three years later. (02:03:12) JS: All right. And as a place to live, did you like it better than Hawaii, or Norfolk, or wherever? CS: I liked it better than Norfolk. Far less than Hawaii. I thought I was going to freeze to death. After I’d been in Hawaii for three years, I’d lost all of my resistance to any kind of cold. Well, believe it or not, the area that I was in was 250 miles north of San Francisco and on the coast. And if it got up to 75 in the summer, it was considered quite warm. I remember in desperation a couple of times just getting in my car and driving inland, or somewhere south for an hour, to warm up. (laughs) JS: Right. CS: It was fairly isolated as a location, for California. Not what you think of as being California at all, because of where it was. It’s up by, uh, I actually lived in Eureka, so Eureka was about half way between Humboldt State and Arcada, and the base was outside a little tourist trap Victorian style town. So I lived in a town that was the biggest thing for a hundred miles around, basically. It was 20,000 people. (laughs) So, and it actually had a mall. It’d had a mall for five years, by the time I got there. A little one, about the size of one wing of Woodland (Mall, in Grand Rapids, Michigan). So it was okay. I had enough shopping there. (02:04:43) CS: I liked the physical environment. We could, we were by Trinity Alps and the state parks all through there. And Redwood National Forest, and the California state parks that are redwoods oriented. We were surrounded by all of this. So it was nice in that respect. It was very difficult for me to swim, which was what I did for my physical training testing every year, that I’d taken up in Hawaii, when it became legal to do that instead of only running. I had to do it at the local community college, which had very limited hours. So, I… it was okay. It wasn’t special. There were things I disliked about the environment a lot. Not about California itself. I wouldn’t go back there. There are things… JS: What… CS: a couple of things that I have bad associations with there. My mother died while I was there, for one thing. JS: And then, from there, where’d you go after that? (02:05:56) �CS: War College. Newport. JS: Back to Newport? CS: Back to Newport. Which granted me my Masters degree. The Navy War College is a degree granting institution. Because, at the time, I don’t know if they still are or not, they kept the same guy in charge there on for quite a while longer than they normally did, until they came up with another Admiral who had a PhD. Who therefore met the requirements to keep the degree granting status. So, I was there for ten months, for school. And had a wonderful time being with classmates, who were, basically, my peers. And from there, I went to Portugal. (02:06:36) JS: All right. And what did they have you doing there? CS: I was the officer in charge of the U.S. unit that supported personnel attached to a native staff. So it was a NATO staff in Lajes, Portugal. Cinciberlant. And the 3 star in charge of Cinciberlant is Portuguese. The deputy, 2 star, is American. And operations officer, a one star, is a Brit. And we also had a couple of German officers on staff. And a couple of Spanish liaison officers. We technically had a French liaison officer, but he was never there, cause it was in an additional duty for him. He was actually an attache’ at the French embassy. JS: Right. (02:07:12) CS: And he was in Lisbon most of the time. That was…that was fun. The unattached people my age, who were sort of my peers, were Brit. So I wound up hanging out with the unattached Brit officers on the staff. One of them is still a friend. She was the nursing sister in charge of the, who worked in the medical support unit. The Americans owned the dentist. The Brits owned the doctor. And nurse. So we were all treated by each other’s medical people. And she retired about five years after that, after she got back to England. And lives in Bath and I’ve visited her a couple of times. JS: Now what kind of work were you doing there? CS: Basic administrative work. Um, I owned the postal clerk, who was a subset of the Air Force Post Office that ran out of the embassy. I owned a small detachment of people that actually belonged to Rota, Spain, one of who was a personnel specialist and two of whom were dispersing people, who made sure we got paid, and who had money so that we could change U.S. money into Portuguese money, rather than keep local bank accounts. In Portuguese money. And lose money all the time. (laughs) (02:08:32) CS: I also owned a couple administrative personnel. A yeoman, a yeoman seaman who kept records. Cut orders, if I needed to send people for specialized medical treatment. To Spain. Where the hospital was. And I owned the dentist and the dental technician. I also had two civilians who worked for me, who were technically Portuguese national, one of them was �actually Scottish, who was married to a Portuguese national. One of them was a housing specialist. She did two things. She ran the Admiral’s quarters. Which we rented for him. And took care of dealing with any maintenance issues, and dealing with the landlord. And she also helped U.S. people coming in find places to live. Because we didn’t have military housing. Everybody lived on the economy and had a special allowance for it. (02:09:26) CS: The other civilian helped with logistics, transporting people’s property in and out. So, and she was, she had worked for the embassy. In South Africa, for a long time. The U.S. embassy. Moved home. Technically, both of my civilians worked for the embassy system. Because the entire group of U.S. support people that were there originally started out as an extension of the embassy staff. Attached to the attache’. And then when they put a NATO staff there, they took the flag billet away. Put it there and some of the people went there. And so they still technically owned my civilians. We didn’t have hiring ability locally. It was a confusing situation because the person who had all the oversight over me was the Deputy, the U.S. 2 star. But technically, I worked for the Admiral in London. For the CINCUSNAV Europe. (02:10:25) JS: Now was it a group who worked together pretty well? CS: Pretty much so. It was interesting when you did Hispanic Heritage while I was there because at one point, my postal clerk’s wife was Mexican. My yeoman was second generation Mexican. So was his wife, high school sweetheart. My personnel-man was Spanish. My DK chief, my dispersing chief, was a Hispanic extraction Pilipino. And my dental clerk’s husband was Portuguese. JS: And could they all talk to each other? CS: Oh, yes. Yes. It was fascinating. Belinda, who was the yeoman’s wife, used to whack him over the head occasionally. His first name was Fidel, by the way. And he had a goony sense of humor so he took advantage of it. Um, he would chatter away and think he was speaking more Portuguese than he was, and she would just go, “you’re not speaking Portuguese, Fidel. You’re speaking in Spanish.” She was learning more of it. As they went along. (02:11:39) CS: And I had radio yeomen who were on the NATO part of the staff, I supported, one who was from South America some place, one who was from Puerto Rico. (laughs) It was very interesting doing Hispanic Heritage day with all those guys there. JS: Right. Okay. Now where did you go after that? CS: I had orders out of there to the Defense Intelligence Agency in Washington. JS: Was that your last assignment? �CS: That was my last assignment. I did not work at DI proper. I worked in the Pentagon in the section that belonged to the joint staff. DI provides all of the intelligence personnel who are part of the joint staff J2. So they don’t count against the limitation on the number of people you can have on the joint staff. The legal limitation. And I worked with those people. So I worked in the Pentagon the whole time. (02:12:27) JS: And what kind of work were you doing there? CS: I did two different things. The first two years I was there, I was the Deputy Division Chief of the group of people who were, oh about, 60/40, sixty percent civilian, forty percent military, who handled response to crisis in intelligence issues, in support of the joint staff. The last year that I was there, I swapped out with one of my Marine Corp compatriots and went from one division to another division. And went to the group that stood watches and directly supported the General on the Operations side, who was also standing watch for crisis situations. So I handled the team of people that had area specialists and subject matter specialists, like guys who belonged to the National Security Agency, who were electronic intelligence emissions specialists. A CIA guy. Service desk officers, who I had a Navy desk officer, and then I had a guy who handled Eur-Asia, and a guy who handled the Pacific area, and a guy who handled Latin America. Specialists, and about a dozen people in a team. (02:13:38) JS: Okay. Then, did you have crises to respond to? CS: Oh, absolutely. During that time frame, there was always a bunch of nasty stuff going on in Africa, that you were keeping track of. You were also…it was post-Desert (Storm), but we were still flying watch over southern and northern… JS: Iraq, right? CS: Right. So there were things that you had to watch about what was going on with the flights. Reasons that you would have to call the J2, or notify the General who was standing the watch on the other side of the wall. There were things to do with monitoring missile launches. Either announced or unannounced. That you had to deal with. And you had drills, about what to do if it were the real thing. Those were interesting. (02:14:30) JS: In general were the people from the different branches of the military, and the civilians, did they work together effectively in these units? CS: Yes. In an environment that joint, they did. When you go back to Navy culture, you are exposed to someone who’s in a part of the Navy that has a lot of community prestige. Say the naval Aviation community. You’ll find guys that had a joint tour that just hated their joint tour. But there was legislation in the late ‘80s, about joint experience being a requirement for promotion to levels beyond a certain point. So they all have to do it, if they want to be promoted. �(02:15:13) JS: Then, over the course of your time in the Navy, did the atmosphere sort of change at all, for what it was like to be a woman in this service there? I mean, did it get easier or did attitudes stay about the same? CS: I don’t know that you would describe it as being easier. There are differences. The ability to go to different types of duty assignments changed. Increased. I remember my first duty station when they were going, on Guam, was when they were first looking at sending women to flight school. And they were taking applicants from active service, also. My commanding officer at the time asked me if I was going to apply. Well, I have corrected eyesight. And I hadn’t been wearing glasses for very long at that point. I didn’t start wearing them until about a year before I went in the service. And he didn’t realize because I was always wearing tinted glasses and my glasses were in fact prescription. And they weren’t taking anybody with eyesight that wasn’t corrected. So that was one thing. Um, I watched as they expanded the number of types of float units that women could be assigned to. Both officers and enlisted. The friend that I mentioned that was one of the first people that I knew that was from a Navy family, who had command twice, she went from our first duty station on Guam to an assignment on a submarine tender. On the east coast. And stayed surface Navy after that. And all of her commands have been in that community. Different types of ships, both times. (02:16:53) CS: Um, it’s far less restrictive than it was, in terms of duty assignments. Attitudes. It was bumpy, for a while. Because of course, no one really expected to have to take in to account what they should of expected to take into account. Which was how do you deal with a force that’s getting pregnant? (laughs) So, they’ve learned to cope with that. And there were some very negative vibes about that. For a while. They had to change all the rules, at one point, about pregnancy discharge. Because at one point, the only time in fact that you could get a pregnancy discharge was if you were pregnant. And then later it became not a cause for discharge. Voluntary or involunatary. (02:17:45) CS: I remember when I was stationed in Pearl, a guy in a restaurant, I had gone some place for lunch in uniform, asking me…there weren’t very many customers in at the time so he was idle, whether I had any problems with authority. And you say, no, if there are people with authority issues, they’ve mostly weeded them out, by the time you have to start dealing with them, except as a very junior officer. But, I noticed a major difference when I took the uniform off. (02:18:25) JS: What do you mean? CS: Much much harder to get things done. Because, eventually, it sank into the culture enough that they didn’t look at the person. They only looked at the uniform. And the rank. So, yes, it made a difference because you had different physical requirements. But it didn’t make the kind of difference it did when I first came in. There were still restrictions, still restrictions. Places you can’t go. There are no women in submarines. And that was really the only thing I would �have been interested in, personally. Would be duty at submarines. Aviation didn’t interested me. Neither did surface warfare. (02:18:59) JS: Now did you have a sense that there were Naval officers, especially when you came in, men, that didn’t really think that women should be there in the first place? CS: In the combat forces? Oh, yeah. It’s still a problem. I think. Some places in the Army. And it’s very hard, to deal with, on a public relations basis. When you have people under attack that is in fact related to the fact that they are women. In areas like the desert. JS: And were you aware of problems like this, sexual harassment and things like that going on? (02:19:30) CS: Yeah. We would talk about it. It was a subject of discussion. Have you ever been sexually harassed? I was surveyed a lot of times, mostly because I respond to them, when they send them to me. And…I never personally felt sexually harassed. But I knew people who did. I just was luckier. JS: Now you were based in California during the point that the Tailhook scandal came out? CS: Um hmm. JS: Now what sort of response was there, on your base, or how did they deal with that? (02:20:12) CS: Oh, that was interesting. Um, we had a junior officer that was a lieutenant, an 03, she had just made it. And she had come from an Aviation unit, even though she was not an aviator. So she had gone to Tailhook one year. And she actually knew the woman who was the prime point of contention. During what was going on. She said very privately, in discussions, that she probably brought it on herself. To a limited extent. No should have still have been no. but her behavior tended to be a bit wild and it led to things it didn’t need to lead to. Also my assistant operations officer…because in California, I was the Operations officer for the base, was a Navy aviator, who was a lieutenant, who had been to Tailhook in the past but had not been to that one. So you would have discussions about what people went into Tailhook expecting. And your basic response from most people who weren;t involved in the actual Tailhook convention, where the problem occurred, was Tailhook started out as a professional association where there were no seniority rules. Okay? (02:21:37) CS: Anybody could say anything to whoever was there. So if you were an 02, a lieutenant AG, you could tell it the way you saw it to the 06 aviators, who were there, who could influence the community. You had…one of the organizers were responsible for the getting of the venue and the details and setting up the professional seminars. Because they had very very good professional seminars associated with Tailhook. And the other thing that you went in expecting was a lot of drinking. Okay. You expected that. You didn’t necessarily expect misbehavior. �You did expect a lot of drinking. I had to certify that none of my subordinates had been in attendance at Tailhook. In writing. To the Navy. So that was… and that went into their records, that said they were not there. There was a service record entry on it. Later, when I was at War College, one of my classmates, who was also not just a classmate of the larger class, but was also in my seminar, was the guy who organized that Tailhook. He told us right up front that that’s who he was. At the meeting. (02:23:04) CS: At the time, he had been on a fast track for flag officer. He had assignment as a CEG. The person who runs all of the aviators afloat on a carrier. That he was about to go to, after this was over with. And, there was an inkling that there was an occurrence. At the conference. Which he knew about, only from having been told. It wasn’t something he witnessed. He had his wife at the conference. A lot of the guys brought their wives to the conference. And I met her, and she said the most serious thing that she endured while she was there was being pinched. And she just turned around and whacked whoever it was. But, um, he went ahead and he’d asked his chain of command if they thought that there’d be a problem if he went ahead, he was supposed to deploy. And they said, no no, go ahead. And he deployed. And then it started. Constant constant interaction with legal. They wound up having to fly him back from sea, assign him to a shore staff. He was never going to make it beyond the level that he was. And it was a terrible burden to them emotionally. To go through this over and over and over, at each level of the investigation. (02:24:26) CS: And I remember running into her, I’d gone into the uniform shop for something. And she was there getting out the car, probably picking something up for him, and I looked at her and she had the funniest look on her face. And I went over to her and said, “Are you all right?” And she said, “yes, it’s over. It’s finally over.” And she just bawled, for half an hour. It was bad that it had that kind of effect on somebody who did nothing wrong. (Wipes away tears. Shakes head) (02:25:07) JS: Something that seemed to kind of have a fallout beyond that in the Navy, were there policy changes or directives coming in, that… CS: Oh, yeah. There was. There was, of course, a much greater emphasis on harassment training. They revamped the program, re-did all of the standard training. Um, I think that the training itself became more effective, um, in that it was pointed…it was slightly modernized. They did a lot of work to try to make it more readily understandable. Pertinent to a different age group coming in. It had negative effects too. Tailhook was a very, a very valuable forum. The aviation community has a couple of things going for it in the Navy. (02:26:09) CS: One of them was the fact that it had this professional consortium where people could learn things together. It was a very, um, I don’t want to call it a bonding experience, it sounds so touchy-feely. But it didn’t make them tighter as a community and better able to trust each other as far as professional judgment, to what they’d been exposed to. It also exposes structural and functional problems to the entire chain of command, from a junior point of view. That was one �of the reasons it was a safe location. Nothing…nothing went out of there. I mean, you could be disrespectful to whoever you wanted to. And have it handled the way it was supposed to be. It was similar to, in a way, the way that the Naval Aviation community handled safety incidents. There’s no blame. You tell everything. So that they can make safety determinations properly on the equipment. That became much more limited, in terms of trust. (02:23:22) JS: Now, from where you were, did you kind of have the impression to the certain degree that there was excess, whatever, that it was in part kind of characteristic of the Aviation community as opposed to the rest of you. Uh, pilots are different people… CS: Pilots are a different bunch of people. You have to have a totally different kind of personality to operate successfully as a pilot. You put pilots in a group and pilots tend to behave like herd animals. JS: Yeah. CS: Submariners tend to be loners. They have to be. You’re in an extremely isolated situation where if you can’t make your own privacy around you, you can’t function for long periods of time underwater or deployed. Aviators also tend to be of an age group. (02:28:18) CS: Young. I had a friend who was an academy grad, who was a surface warfare officer. And in the academy, because your there for four years, in the summer they give you exposure to the different warfare communities, so you can see where you might have aptitude. They really wanted him to go into aviation. He had the reflexes for it, you see. But he didn’t care for the environment. He was not a herd animal. And when he was out, deployed at different points, he always had a plan for when they were going to be in port, for something that he was going to do. And the junior aviators, that was never the case. It was always, well, what’s the group going to do? Well, I’m not going to wait for the group to decide what to do. I’m going to have a plan to see something that I want, that I want to see in this strange area. Or that I want to experience. And if you want to go with me, that’s fine. (laughs) (02:29:24) CS: So, yes. Aviators are different. They tend to be extrovert personalities. In the very clichéd sense of the word. Needing the other people around for interaction. They can function on their own. They have to be able to function on their own, especially if they’re fighter pilots. That’s not how they socialize. When I was a lieutenant, JJ, I think his name was, the first time I was in Norfolk. I went to a class that was developed for the entire Navy in, for junior officers in leadership. Education and leadership training. Well, in Norfolk, it was a combined class of the version for Aviation and the version for everyone else. Cause there were slight differences. But they didn’t have enough people to handle it separately. So they combined the instructors. So I went through, I think at Naval Amphib base, but we had a lot of aviators in that particular class. So at lunch time one day, they put on a tape that was by a flight surgeon, who had been searching the topic for several years. And he had produced this instructional video that was kind of �controversial as far as the aviators were concerned. And these guys, this was their first opportunity to see it. (02:30:52) CS: Well, he had developed a theory that you could predict stress problems, in aviators, soon enough to be able to catch them in a safety related sense, if you watched their behavior patterns. And they, the behavior patterns, varied on a scale, he used 1 to 10. Rated from 0 to 10, but the P3 guys objected to being a zero (laughs) so, he had to change it. But the example he used was P3 guys, you judge a party, excellence, by the quality of the food and wine served, at the party. And he went up a level. And these guys, they judge a party’s excellence by the amount, the quantity of money that was consumed, spent on the party. And then you get to the fighter guys, just short of fighter pilots, the next level up, and that’s by the size of the bar bill. And then you get to the fighter pilots and they judge a party by the size of the damages to the bar. (Laughter) And then he said you get to helicopter pilots and they don’t have parties. (Laughs) So the level of stress goes up throughout. (02:32:20) CS: Really, it’s true. Because pilots have to be able to compartmentalize. And that’s what he was using to predict stress. To fly my plane, is the compartment in the middle. It’s the last one to go. So if you want to predict a safety problem from somebody, you have to look at the other compartments. Are they having family problems? Are they having stress problems in this area? Are they having other problems in their work? What going on with this and this and this… He said, now I’ve had a lot of guys ask me, thinking it would be a good idea if their spouse’s saw this particular film. I want you, before you ask that, to consider if you really want your wife to know that she lives only in a compartment of your life. (02:33:10) JS: You have your twenty-odd years in the Navy and then you eventually get downsized. Where do you go from there? CS: The only place that I ever cried when I left was Pearl Harbor. Every place was interesting but that was the only place that mattered that much to me, and I wanted to try living in Hawaii. It’s very expensive. It’s not easy to do on retired pay. So, it’s not really even possible to do it in any comfortable sense on retired pay plus working at some service job. You know, like McDonald’s or a bookstore, or something. So I knew that I would have to have another income. I have a lot of friends that are still in Hawaii, so I went out and stayed with one of them for six weeks, then moved into an efficiency and applied for positions. And I had figured out that I had enough money at I could stay there for about ten months. And if by then I did not have a job that could pay enough that I could stay, that I could ship my express shipment back to the mainland. I put everything else in storage. (02:34:15) JS: Right. CS: In the D.C. area. I had my car and about 800 pounds of express stuff, clothes and records and books, whatever, and I managed that. I applied for a civil service position in September, and �I got there in July. And the position closed. They called me for an interview in December. Told me in January that if I cleared, I had the job. I cleared in March and went to work for them in April. I had been working for the Census Bureau. That was census year. (02:34:50) CS: A little extra income coming in. And I work in intelligence. JS: So, now you do that as a civilian rather than… CS: (nods head yes.) Um hmm. JS: Now how do ou think your, ah, time in the service wound up affecting you as a person? Or how do you view the world of things? CS: It is very different. You have to learn to think in much wider terms. Both geographically. Issue-wise. In terms of…just in time zones. I mean, that’s one thing that being stationed in the Pacific does for you. If you can’t think in time zones, you can’t figure anything out. Cause you have to talk to D.C. in the morning and Japan in the afternoon. JS: Right. (02:35:28) CS: Um, we change very gradually. You notice at first that it changes what you eat. What you find acceptable. And then you notice that the things that you pay attention to, in the terms of the news, are not the same things that everybody else pays attention to. At home. I cannot talk to my brother about anything but family. I have no relationship to anything in local politics. And I still haven’t developed much of one, though it’s coming back. After being in Hawaii since 2000, so, almost, over eight years now. You pay attention to national elections, you pay attention to what your senator says. What your representative says in terms of international things. (02:36:30) CS: General domestic policy things on tax. You don’t pay attention to anything local, road systems, construction. Whatever. If your single. Now if your married, to tend to be able to take that skill set out and plug it in in a different location because it’s going to affect your children. JS: Right. CS: That stuff to do with the school systems and transportation and that kind of thing. You have different concerns. Portability of skills for your spouse. What’s a new area going to be like that way. So your much more aware of the differences in geographic areas, in terms of what the housing market looks like. In terms of what the job market looks like. (02:37:19) CS: Um. Especially the housing market. Even if your single. Somethings to do with the transportation pattern but not the transportation infrastructure, usually. Costs. I had a guy I was talking to in Hawaii when I was stationed there. I said, “where do you want to go when you �transfer, Ed?” He said, “Norfolk.” I said, why Norfolk? He said, because of the five or six big places that I could be stationed as an intelligence officer, which is what he was, that’s the only one where I can afford to buy a house. (02:37:52) CS: Cause all of the other areas were high cost areas. And he had a family, couple of little kids. You pay attention to different things in the weather. I mean, you start looking at patterns that affect much farther out. Then local weather reporting, it’s much different than when I first went in. You do see things in the satellite patterns in the local area, in regionally. And if you watch the weather channel, you see it. It’s become a skill that the civilian community also has, looking at weather in terms of travel. (02:38:36) JS: Um hmm. CS: But you develop that really quickly in the military, moving around, having to check things like that. The availability…you get very inventive about being able to get things that you can’t find, wherever you are. For a long time, every once in a while I would just go absolutely bonkers. And I would call my sister and say I need you to go to the grocery store and buy me two rings of bologna, freeze them solid for two weeks. Call Federal Express. Find out when the shipment goes out. Put it in a box and deliver it to Federal Express abot an hour before the shipment is going to go out, so they can pack it in dry ice and they can send it to wherever I am and it’ll thaw out just about the time it gets here. (Laughter.) (02:39:20) CS: it’s just like that silly episode of MASH, where they went crazy trying to get some food that they could only get in Chicago. Yes. You could figure out strange things like that, eventually. Of course, if you’re in Aviation and you know someone whose flying from one point to another, that helps. But I’ve never been able to take advantage of that sort of thing. You learn flight patterns. You pick up the habit of having the airline mileage accounts much earlier than most people do, so that you can do something with it. You have the time zone map in your head. I never have succeeded in telling anyone in my family, having anyone learning what time it is, where I am. And that implies, that also includes when I was stationed in Virginia, both in Norfolk and at the Pentagon. And I was in the same time zone as they were. They still could not remember where I was and where they were. (laughs) (02:40:21) CS: My cousin would call me. What time is it? Three o’clock in the morning, Charlie. (Shakes head.) But yes, it does, it changes your priorities too, because you can see wider patterns internationally, than a lot of people who don’t do a lot of traveling, can see. So you worry about different things. JS: Well, it makes for a pretty remarkable story. And thank you for taking the time to tell it to us. CS: Thank you. �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeifertC Title A name given to the resource Seifert, Cathy (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seifert, Cathy Description An account of the resource Cathy Seifert was born in Grand Rapids, MI in 1952. After graduating from Hope College, she entered the civil service in 1976, and then went to the Naval War College for officer training in 1978. She then served as a naval officer in various capacities until retiring in 1999. She served in Hawaii, Guam, Japan, Portugal, Norfolk, and finally at the Pentagon, serving with the Defense Intelligence Agency. She describes her different assignments in detail, and also says a good deal about life in the Navy and issues confronted by women officers during the period in which she served. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-13 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b2ac3e2f58429dd65249f83f7650bc3.m4v d0c4b5e47a89528cb51102695efe1b94 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ea8dd117f5287f4588fb47968a81c2ba.pdf 3bbd3c657a0d85c0c68e939b94e001ce PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans‟ History Project Interviewee‟s Name: Mary B. Sefton Name of War: Vietnam War Length of Interview: (01:28:10) (00:01) “Let‟s begin with your name, where and when were you born?” (00:03) “My name is Mary Beth Sefton. I was born May 3rd, 1947 in Anderson, Indiana.” (00:04) “What was your early schooling like?” (00:05) “Very Catholic. St. Thomas Church. Thomas the Apostle Church and School, Grand Rapids, Michigan and it was not the traditional scary nuns. Or maybe I just didn‟t get the scary ones.” (00:21) ”I had the scary nuns!” (00:23) “You got my share then. I got a very good grounding in things that aren‟t taught in schools today like diagramming sentences so that you recognize when there are words hanging off the ends of things. ” (00:36) “Wow! Early on, through catholic school. Did you then go into catholic high school?” (00:44) “I went to a catholic convent boarding school. St. Mary‟s in South Bend, IN, which is now defunct. But it‟s not, as my daughter thought for quite a number of years, a convict boarding school.” (00:58) “What was that experience like?” (00:01:02) That was very interesting. I wouldn‟t trade it for anything….there are a lot of things in my life that I would not trade for anything. That is one of them. I don‟t know that I would send my daughter there but she‟s an entirely different person than I am.” (00:01:14) “Now, you were the first of what would eventually be ten children in this family.” (00:01:19) “Yes.” �(00:01:20) “During this period of time, were you the only child, or did another child come along fairly quickly?” (00:01:27) “I had about eighteen months.” (00:01:28) “Okay. Eighteen months of being the only child.” (00:01:30) “Something like that!” (00:01:35) “The high school experience and the boarding school, was there any thinking on your part during that time that you would want to get into the military, or be involved in the military at all?” (00:01:47) ”The military had always been part of the family, part of the history. Both of my parents were involved in World War II, Dad as a paratrooper, Mom as a nurse, so I had a lot of advantages in that I never thought of the military as a big, green machine that would eat me alive. It was something that my parents had done and had survived and had pretty positive memories of that they met in France. From then on, the war was a great rosy glow.” (00:02:22) “I obviously know the story, but I‟m trying to get to though is that, I know of my own experience in high school that I had little if any understanding what my father did during World War II and I had some inkling of what my mother was doing. Were you aware, I‟ve been to your parents‟ house, so I know you are surrounded by the memorabilia and pictures. Were you aware through high school of what they had done? Your dad was a paramedic trooper or any of that?” (00:02:53) “Pretty much so. My first contact with military memorabilia was stepping on my mother‟s nurse‟s pin. In fact I learned about a lot then, I learned about tetanus, but it was only that they met in 1945, they were married in 1946, I was born in 1947. This was two years and only about a year after they came back, I was born so it wasn‟t really memorabilia, it was still stuff that they had. So they had the uniforms. I remember them stretching them out on the clothesline to air them out, but there weren‟t – when you say memorabilia, I think of the shadow boxes with the medals and things. They weren‟t in medals, they were in the drawer that they‟d brought „em back in and we also had a long stream of friends who would drop by. Friends of Dad‟s who would happen to be in town, my mother‟s friend Barbie would turn up. They were pretty much in constant contact, so it was not; it wasn‟t something that happened „out there,‟ this was part of what they had done. So it was never separate.” �(00:04:17) “Yeah, that makes sense to me because I grew up in an airlines atmosphere, so pilots were coming over and people like that so, even as a child, you can kind of grasp, „oh, that‟s what they do.‟ „These are their friends and whatnot.‟ When was it that you thought about getting in to the military? Or did nursing come first and then military or how did that evolve?” (00:04:40) “It was pretty casual, actually. I had happened to…Dad was talking about doing something, his advertising agency was talking about doing something overseas, looking at languages and I‟d had French and Spanish and Latin and he had such high hopes for that but somehow I drifted into nursing. I‟d been to one year to Aquinas College here in Grand Rapids and then I was just, I can‟t say that there was any burning vocational „I will be a nurse or I will curl up in a ball and die.‟ It was just kind of a pull. So I went to school in Sioux City, Iowa and I‟d started the paperwork to get into the Army while I was here in Michigan and I finished the paperwork and was sworn in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.” (00:05:41) “I don‟t want to get ahead of ourselves.” (00:05:43) “Okay.” (00:05:45) “The Vietnam war was already going on by this time?” (00:05:47) “Yes.” (00:05:50) “I don‟t want to ask a dumb question, but were you aware that there was a war going on?” (00:05:55) “Yes. I was quite aware that there was a war on.” (00:05:57) ”Okay.” (00:05:59) “But again, I had never, I didn‟t have the scary concept of war that everybody who goes to war will die since both of my parents had made it through quite nicely. It was something that I can articulate it a little bit better now than I could then. That I had been given so much that it would be nice to give a little bit back.” (00:06:28) “In terms of the country?” (00:06:30) “In terms of the country, family, and it seemed like a nice way to do it.” �(00:06:38) “You know I have been honored to be a guest at your parents‟ home during Thanksgiving and granted there was a different atmosphere then because you didn‟t have all the kids and grandkids and everything else all together in one place.” (00:06:52) “Not too much!” (00:06:54) “Okay. There is a sense of the environment itself. It‟s very caring. It‟s very giving and so when you say, „giving back to family, giving back to country‟ as soon as you said that, it clicked.” (00:07:07) “Well, it‟s like in appreciation of everything my parents have given me and appreciation of how much I get from my family and how much support I‟ve gotten all my life.” (00:07:24) ”This is a little more trickier question. Did you have any opinions and keep in mind that I remember when I was eighteen years old and did you have any opinions about Vietnam at that time? Because you are getting inundated with newspapers stuff and radio and TV and all that. Was there any…focused on the nursing part and if it happened to be in Vietnam, you‟d go, it doesn‟t matter? If you were stationed in Germany, that would be okay, too. Or was there any kind of view at that early age of what was going on in Vietnam?” (00:07:59) “I figured war was war and they‟d need nurses. I didn‟t, as far as political…” (00:08:07) “Yeah. Just overall as a teenager, you know, what was your impression?” (00:08:10) “I was an old teenager.” (00:08:13) ”What does that mean?” (00:08:18) “I just felt older than most of the people my age, partly because being the oldest of ten kids you see things a little bit differently and you‟re…responsibility comes into it a lot.” (00:08:34) “Are you telling me that they actually relied upon you to help out? I thought she kind of controlled the whole thing by herself.” (00:08:40) “Very well, too. But when she said, „Take care of the kids,‟ you take care of the kids.” �(00:08:48) “I know, she‟s told me to do things and for some reason, I do it automatically.” (00:08:52) “This is a good move. Always a good move.” (00:08:56) “Let‟s keep in this period here, where you are making a decision about going into the military. Did you come to this decision, you said kind of gradually, kind of moved towards that. Was there any discussion with Mom and Dad about what you wanted to do?” (00:09:13) “There was discussion. They were very careful not to push me into…their attitude was pretty much „find something that you really like and go ahead and do it.‟ There was no „This is a good thing. There‟s Army and there‟s Navy and there‟s this.‟ It was pretty much my decision, but again, I had the positive role models, so it wasn‟t a tough you know, going against the family business, sort of decision.” (00:09:50) “With Beth being not only an experienced nurse, but a nurse who was literally treating battle casualties, was there any discussion with her? Did she take you aside privately and say, „Now. Mary Beth, this is what you‟ll have to do.‟” (00:10:06) “No, but it was never a secret that she‟d been in the O.R. and in fact, I remember sitting in the bathtub when I was six or eight, something like that and I‟d skinned my knee and she was explaining to me, how, „Well, sweetie, this will heal up nicely, but if they had to take your, you know, if something really bad had happened to your knee and they would have to take your whole leg off, this is where the little flap would go and then the skin would cover up and they would stitch it there and it would be nice and smooth.‟ That‟s cool.” (00:10:43) “Lessons I learned in my bathtub at six.” (00:10:48) “Serve you well all your life. You know perfectly well that a skinned knee is not so bad. You can fix it and my mom knows how to make it smooth so it would work.” (00:10:58) “So, once the decision was made, why Army?” (00:11:06) “Grandad was Army, Dad was Army, Mom was Army, my brother was Army. It seemed familiar. Ugliest uniforms. The shortest commitment was two years. I thought that it doesn‟t matter what I do for the next two years, those years are still going to go by. I wanted to get out. I wanted to see what was going on in the world. I did not necessarily want to do it solo. The Army looked like a nice framework. As I said, I had never gotten the impression that �the Army was a giant machine that would eat me alive. So it seemed like I could do that.” (00:11:47) “So what was the, first of all, what was the date?” (00:11:52) “1968.” (00:11:53) “Now, ‟68 in this country was a turbulent time. There‟s everything from Woodstock going on to the man on the moon and once again, I realize that you are a teenager, albeit an older teenager.” (00:12:11) “I was in Sioux City, Iowa. Not quite so turbulent.” (00:12:14) “Okay. But the newspapers, the T.V.” (00:12:18) ”We had those in Iowa.” (00:12:21) “I was in Taiwan, okay?” (00:12:23) “A little rougher for you. A little more turbulent.” (00:12:26) “I still got the album of Woodstock and I knew that there was anti-war. There was all kinds of things going on. We had an r & r station, so I was actually meeting G.I.s who were like two years older than I was. I didn‟t really grasp it all. I‟m just wondering if you had any kind of idea what you were about to get into if you did have to go to Vietnam.” (00:12:49) “I was expecting it to be…you know, I‟d seen the news reels every night, seen the jungle in black and white and the dramatic stuff, but again I had the backlog of the stories my mom and dad would tell me and I could see that yes, this is a very flashy piece of news, but I could also understand that there was a lot of slack time behind that and that we weren‟t getting to see the slack time, the down time. I did not get into the „should we be there? Should we not be there? What are we going to do?‟ That part of the political history or convolutions. I could track it up to a point and then thought, „eh.‟” (00:13:49) “Yeah. What was the process then once you enlisted?” (00:13:56) “I was an E-1 or E-2.” (00:13:58) “What was the actual process? You were in civilian clothes. You walk into a door. What happens? You go and say, „Hi. I want to sign up?‟” �(00:14:05) “Actually, you have to go to Detroit for that and you fill out bunches and bunches of papers.” (00:14:10) ”Okay. Did you go by yourself?” (00:14:13) “No. My sister Lori came with me. And we had to be there at 8:00, which meant we had to leave Grand Rapids about 5:00 which meant we had to be up very early. It was very foggy.” (00:14:25) “Without getting into real details though, the driving trip up with Lori, what did you talk about?” (00:14:30) ”I think we laughed most of the way. There was never the doomand-gloom what are you getting into? It was just kind of a „This is what I happen to be doing now.‟ And she was there to keep me company. It was pretty cool. Let‟s drive to Detroit. We didn‟t do that much.” (00:14:50) “Right. So you arrived there. Was there like crowds of people?” (00:14:58) ”There weren‟t a lot of females lining up so I was always a little bit separate. And it was mostly paperwork then and the swearing in….of course, I couldn‟t be sworn in to the Army Nurse Corps until I actually became a nurse, which would be after I graduated and took my state boards. They‟re picky about that sort of thing. But the entry level was an r.n. at that point. From then on, it was waiting until I graduated and I was actually sworn in in Sioux Falls, South Dakota in a blizzard. Another great drive. And I‟d gone to Sioux Falls for my physical, also, and that was tricky because I was the only female so I got a little folding screen to carry around with me and it‟s all very fascinating.” (00:15:55) “The part I‟m….I know the policy of being a nurse first, so were you in a school of nursing?” (00:16:01) “Right. St. Vincent‟s School of Nursing.” (00:16:03) “Okay.” (00:16:05) “The same one my mom went to.” (00:16:08) “Oh, really?” (00:16:11) “Yes. Didn‟t know that, did you?” �(00:16:13) “No. That sends chills down my spine.” (00:16:14) “Surprise, surprise! Well it was one of the things that made the decision a little bit easier for nursing since... Actually, I can‟t say it was legacied into anything, but my convent school was chosen because of my father‟s sister, Mary Kay, who was an absolutely delightful lady. She had gone there and Dad figured she turned out pretty well and maybe some of it would rub off on me. And then from St. Mary‟s I went to a year to Aquinas and then out to Sioux City, St. Vincent‟s where Mom had graduated. That‟s where she was from.” (00:17:01) “So you were now, the first time you were away from home, living away from home?” (00:17:06) ”Well, I lived away from home in high school.” (00:17:10) “Right. Yeah. But I mean in terms of on your own.” (00:17:12) “Right. Well, you‟re stuck in a dorm with all the rest of the students, so it‟s not quite living on your own. There was a tunnel to the hospital so that we could fill in in bad weather when no one else could get there. But, no, it was not all females. We had seven men in our class when not very many people had even one man in their class. One of them went to Vietnam and I ran into him there. We‟ll talk about that later. Leaping ahead.” (00:17:40) “How did you find nursing? In the very beginning. I mean, here you are, your mother‟s profession and obviously there‟s a lot of admiration for that. How did you find nursing? Was it enjoyable?” (00:17:51) “Handy.” (00:17:52) “What?” (00:17:52) “Handy.” (00:17:53) “Handy?” (00:17:58) “Yes. I learned a lot of things. I learned a lot from my mom that came in handy there. Pretty much everything I learned, I figured I could use all my life.” (00:18:09) “As a mother yourself?” (00:18:11) “Yes; or even on my own. It‟s nice to know that…how things work and when to go running for the doctor and when to think, „That‟s not much.‟” �(00:18:24) “So once you got through nursing then, did you find it difficult? I talk to a lot of vets and I ask that question and they kind of look at me funny but some people take on a particular task and it‟s very difficult for them. Others seem to just take to it. How did you find nursing?” (00:18:42) “I liked it. There were so many different areas in nursing. Mom worked operating room and loved it. I was very good at O.B. There was a lot of different things about it. You‟re not stuck in a rut doing just one thing. If you find an area you don‟t like, you have a really wide range that you can choose from.” (00:19:14) “Was it still challenging to you?” (00:19:16) “Oh, yes.” (00:19:19) “Okay. So there‟s…” (00:19:20) “It wasn‟t a piece of cake. I had to work at this stuff. But, I never got the feeling that I was learning something that I would never use again or something useless.” (00:19:33) ”Once you graduated from nursing school, was there a formal kind of…” (00:19:41) “Complete with the lamp. Florence Nightingale. Ducks in a row and carrying candles.” (00:19:45) “Dramatic.” (00:19:47) “Okay, dramatic.” (00:19:49) “I like drama. Candles and all that kind of stuff. Had you been issued a military uniform up to this point?” (00:19:58) “I was given an envelope when I was sworn in in Sioux Falls. I was given the envelope, a big manila envelope and they said, „You won‟t be needing any of this until after graduation.‟ So I thought, „Okay, I won‟t need any of this until after graduation and I tucked it away. I did wonder why my classmate who was also going into the Army had a nice little nurses pin that he wore but I figured that would have just been an oversight. When I opened the envelope after graduation, I found out possibly I should have opened it a little bit sooner yes, there was my little nurse‟s pin, but there was also the rules which you will �follow in nursing school one of which was „You will not go more than fifty miles outside of this nursing school without telling somebody.‟ I was sworn in maybe on a Friday in December and the following Monday I drove to Michigan. So I suppose, technically I was A.W.O.L. but no one ever came after me for it so I think I‟ve either been forgiven or…” (00:21:05) …”Well, apparently, nobody also questioned you about your pin, either.” (00:21:08) “Well, this was in the nursing school. It wouldn‟t have mattered. It was an Army pin.” (00:21:14) ”Right. Did you ever attend boot camp?” (00:21:17) “No.” (00:21:19) “So, you graduate. The Florence Nightingale, the candle, the whole bit.” (00:21:24) “It was a fake lamp, but it was a real candle.” (00:21:25) “Where did you go next?” (00:21:27) ”I went home to study for my state boards and I took my state boards in Michigan.” (00:21:31) ”You went back home as in Bill and Beth Sefton‟s house?” (00:21:34) “Yep. Grand Rapids. I was done at school. They didn‟t want me there. Once you graduate, they tend to kind of want to send you home.” (00:21:44) “What was your mom‟s reaction to your arrival after going through all of this? Was there a sense, did you feel a sense of pride on her part or was she mother henning you, saying, „Did you do this? Did you do that?‟ (00:21:57) “That came later. I don‟t want to jump ahead.” (00:22:01) “She‟s going to get mad at me for bringing this up. So you arrive back and you‟ve got the state boards. This is work now. This is study time. You‟ve got to really cram to get this stuff right otherwise if you don‟t pass…” �(00:22:13) “Actually I went to a pretty good nursing school and the state boards were not that tricky. I passed them on the first try. And apparently the Army gets word on the state boards before anyone else does because I got my phone call and the nice recruiting person in Detroit said, “Is this Lieutenant Sefton?‟ I was thinking, „Well, no‟ and then I thought „Yes, I passed.‟ Mom was very pleased. (00:22:44) “So where did you go from Michigan? Now you‟re going into the Army?” (00:22:51) “The serious Army. Although it‟s the Army Nurse Corps.” (00:22:53) “Yes. But still…” (00:22:55) “We‟re the medical corps, so it‟s not quite boot camp. Have you ever seen doctors march?” (00:22:59) “No.” (00:23:03) “Oh, it‟s priceless.” (00:23:05) “Is this a movie?” (00:23:05) “No, no, no. Doctors marching. And nurses marching. Learning to march.” (00:23:15) “No. Are they in nurses‟ uniforms when they‟re marching?” (00:23:18) “No. We got real uniforms.” (00:23:20) ”Before you get too far… you‟re in civvy clothes, you arrive where?” (00:23:28) “San Antonio. Fort Sam Houston.” (00:23:31) “This is a boot camp?” (00:23:32) “This is a basic training camp.” (00:23:36) ”Is this a big place?” (00:23:37) “It‟s a big place. It‟s Texas. It‟s a big place.” �(00:23:44) “Parade grounds. Barracks. Mess hall. Big American flag somewhere.” (00:23:45) “All that stuff.” (00:23:46) “Are there soldiers there as well as medical?” (00:23:48) “Sure, oh yeah.” (00:23:53) “So they‟re training soldiers there as well?” (00:23:55) “Yes. That‟s how I can tell which are the soldiers and which are the doctors marching.” (00:24:00) “So you arrive by bus?” (00:24:02) “Plane. Separately. Everybody trundles in and we go into a huge auditorium. Of course everybody knows in the military, short hair but being a bit of a procrastinator, I liked my hair long. I didn‟t want to chop it off yet and the nice officer who stood up there, a very lovely lady, said, „Now a lot of you have heard a lot of different things about the Army, I want you to know it‟s not all the scary stuff that you‟ve heard. For instance, don‟t cut your hair. If your hair is long, don‟t cut your hair.‟ You should have heard the screams of all the girls who‟d gone out and cut their hair the night before because they wanted some control over what it was going to look like. So, procrastiny did pay off and I got to keep my hair long. She did mention that ninety some percent of us would be going to Vietnam.” (00:25:04) “Wow.” (00:25:05) “Of course, nobody believed it. There were some who‟d volunteered to go and they went to, I want to say Fort Campbell, Kentucky, but I didn‟t go there. But it was just, „Okay.‟ And I had told my parents, as I recall, I promised I wouldn‟t volunteer for Vietnam but I figured if I got orders…” (00:25:26) “True. You‟re still not in uniform yet.” (00:25:30) “No. We get lined up.” (00:25:33) “That‟s what I want to hear about. That‟s what I want to hear about. They‟ve got a tailor from New York, right? He‟s measuring you out.” �(00:25:38) “Definitely. The wrist, the ankles, the inseam, the boots. Elegant, elegant.” (00:25:47) “All right. What happened?” (00:25:49) “We lined up like ducks in a row and trundled in and the people behind the stacks of uniforms would say, „What size are you?‟ „Roughly ten, twelve, whatever.‟ „Okay. This.‟ And we ended up with forty pounds of clothes. Now, as nurses, we were officers so we had to pay for our stuff as opposed to being issued the stuff. We got our dress uniforms and actually my dress blues came from Anna Mae Hayes who was one of the first, if not the first, female generals because she had apparently used up these dress blues and she‟d gotten a new set and it did fit as if it were tailored especially for me.” (00:26:42) “Was it recycled?” (00:26:45) “Well, hers were. It was just one of the announcements made. They said, „Would anyone be interested?‟ and people who would think, „no, no, no, I want a brand new one all my own,‟ went and bought a uniform. And I said, „How much?‟ And I don‟t remember how much, but it was a lot less and it fit beautifully and was nicely cared for. „Thank you, General.‟ And I wore it quite cheerfully.” (00:27:05) “All right so now, you‟ve got your uniforms. Where do you go from there? You‟re assigned to a barracks or what was that?” (0027:17) “Well, there were an awful lot of nurses in that particular basic training camp.” (00:27:23)“All first lieutenants?” (00:27:25) “Second. Second lieutenants, as low as you could possibly get and still be a nurse. And it was pretty crowded and back then you could not have coed barracks, even if they had room in one of the men‟s barracks. You couldn‟t put nurses, female nurses in there. So, they told us „I‟m sorry. There‟s no room for you here. You‟ll have to stay in the Sheraton in San Antonio.‟ A true heart breaker. My room had sliding glass doors. Six steps out was a small pool. Not Olympic size, just pool enough to hop out, swim around in, hop back in. The big Olympic pool was a couple hundred yards down. Hardship. Hardship tour.” (00:28:21) ”So, from there, you billeted there, then you would just go back onto base, back and forth.” (00:28:28) “The bus would come at o‟dark thirty.” �(00:28:31) “All right. What is „o‟dark thirty?‟” (00:28:33) “Very early. One of the things Dad said to me was if I was going to be in the Army, I would get to see a lot of beautiful sunrises and he was right. A lot of beautiful sunrises. Sunrises. Sunsets. All that stuff. But the bus would pick us up at o‟dark thirty and we would trundle back to Fort Sam and get in line for chow. Mess. Whatever. I did not know that you could serve fried apples for breakfast. They looked like potatoes but they were apples. You learn a whole different set of food in the Army.” (00:29:08) “And you got to eat what‟s on your plate.” (00:29:15) “Sometimes. Unless you could work a deal.” (00:29:18) “Just overall. How was the food? Was it tolerable? Was it actually good?” (00:29:24) “It was delicious.” (00:29:25) “Really?” (00:29:25) “Yes. Except for the soup. We‟ll get into that later.” (00:29:35) “What was the daily routine in the early days, I don‟t mean toward graduation, in the very early days? What was the daily routine like?” (00:29:41) “Trying to get us desperately organized. These are women, girls, from all over, different sizes, different shapes. Trying to teach them how to line up, how to wear the uniform. Just getting us lined up in a straight line was a little bit tricky.” (00:30:01) “You know in the movies, T.V. shows and all that and certainly in the number of interviews I‟ve done with veterans, the male veterans, you get the idea of boot camp sergeants screaming into your face and calling you a maggot. What was the person, the person that was in charge of you? What was their behavior?” (00:30:20) “We didn‟t have that person. Our person, if we were just upright and dressed and walking the same direction, that was pretty good. And we were neat and tidy.” (00:30:28) “Male or female?” �(00:30:30) “Both. We didn‟t have…now, I don‟t know what it was like on base, but for those of us who were bussed in from the swing area, as it were, we would go through the whole drill through the day and there were a lot of classes. You had to learn what the paperwork looked like, how to fill out the paperwork. Surprise! Surprise! What to expect….this is not just people headed for Vietnam.” (00:31:00) “Across the board.” “This is everybody, the whole Army medical everything. How to recognize the paperwork. What‟s important, how the charts go together. Where the patients come from. There was a lot of reviewing and when we got, we also got military classes like how to shoot a back azimuth we did a lot of map reading courses in the rain. I believe we had the distinction of being the last or second to last crew back but we did get back without having to bring the truck. Because the truck was stuck in the mud, but….” (00:31:37) “You know, very often the Army is criticized for its paperwork and there‟s always when you talk to people, „the paperwork‟ but in terms of medical profession it is important to recognize this piece of paper from that piece of paper. It could mean somebody‟s life that you‟re talking about.” (00:31:53) ”Yeah. They‟re touchy about that.” (00:31:56) “So this was, might be considered tedious, but at the same time, you recognized that this was important?” (00:31:57) “Yes. It might seem tedious at this point, but at some point this could be very serious.” (00:32:10) “Now, during this period of time, especially with the boot camp, whether it‟s World War II, Korea, Vietnam or whatnot, they‟re constantly at you from the morning until night. Was there down time? Was there any, obviously you went back to a hotel. I mean, was there a social life during this period of time? Or are you just so focused on what you had to do or so much homework and things like that?” (00:32:35) “There was a fair amount of social life. There was a lot of studying, but it wasn‟t harder than nursing school. It was different, it was difficult in that it was different.” (00:32:50) “Okay.” �(00:32:52) “Like stepping into a different world; trying to learn the language of that world because up to that point, we didn‟t know that military jargon. Some of us knew some of it but it was learning the new terms, learning what to call things and what not to call things.” (00:33:12) “Yes, the Army‟s notorious CINCOMPAC it‟s something, something, something and it‟s just this whole language in itself. I‟m not trying to dig here for any kind of dirt or anything like that, but were you discouraged from fraternizing with the Army males? Not just within the nurse department. Was there a statement like „You cannot go to a bar and hangout with these guys? Or go to this club?” (00:33:40) “If there was, I missed it completely.” (00:33:43) “So there was kind a camaraderie amongst your group?” (00:33:46) “Very much so and this was not only the Vietnam era, this was also the hippie era. So you had a loosening a lot of the attitudes. It was interesting, we were talking about uniforms. Once you got used to the uniform and hair pinned up, neat and tidy – uniform being a uniform length et cetera, et cetera. You looked at people not in uniform and they started to look kind of sloppy. „That‟s pretty crummy. Why don‟t you wear that with that? Straighten up a little bit. Comb that hair.‟” (00:34:33) “What kind of music were you listening to?” (00:34:35) ”Pretty much what anyone else was listening to.” (00:34:41) “Okay. This is like the rock-n-roll era.” (00:34:44) “Credence Clearwater Revival, any band that happened to be at the club, just whatever happened to be there at the time.” (00:34:52) “That‟s the same music I was listening to.” (00:34:54) “It‟s scary how universal that can me.” (00:35:00) “During the period of time, I‟m not trying to belabor this, but the news was coming back about what was going on in Vietnam. you know you can have an opinion one way or the other about how the media was skewered one way or another. You knew you were going to Vietnam at some point.” �(00:35:19) “I didn‟t know for sure because we were given choices where we wanted to go.” (00:35:25) ”Really?” (00:35:26) “Well, „Here. Write down where you want to go.‟ and then the Army would decide where you were going to go but this was the illusion of choice here. I thought, „Well, let‟s see. I‟ve never been to Colorado. I‟ve never been to California, never been to Massachusetts.‟ Sounded good to me. So I put them down. Some people, as I said, volunteered to go to Vietnam. Some people wanted to be stationed somewhere near their home. Some people wanted to be stationed anywhere but anywhere near their home.” (00:36:02) “Right. That‟s an interesting insight right there.” (00:36:03) “What?” (00:36:04) “Well, that people would choose to be closer to home or as far away from home as possible. I found that in college. What eventually happened? In terms of these choices. You wrote down these choices; what eventually happened?” (00:36:19) “Which was, I went to Fort Devens, Massachusetts, which was where the Green Berets were doing part of their winter training. You know the image of an Army nurse, usually in the orthopedic ward? There‟s some guy with his leg up in traction and the lovely young nurse bending over him, offering him sips of water. Or you sight down the ward and the nurse is there with all these young guys in various stages of brokenness? I worked obstetrics at Fort Devens. The only G.I.s, the only soldiers I saw while I was working were the husbands coming in. I‟m hoping they wouldn‟t fall over on the floor on me. But, it was, I loved working o.b. This was fine, as far as I was concerned. “ (00:37:22) “When did you find out you were going to go somewhere else?” (00:37:23) “When did I find out?” (00:37:24) “Yes.” (00:37:26) “About six or eight weeks after everyone else in Fort Devens knew it. My commanding officer, not commanding officer, chief nurse, head nurse of the o.b. unit was retiring. Captain Carpenter was moving on and me, with about a year in the Army, just under a year was now going to be the senior person in �o.b. I was good at it and didn‟t want, maybe…. Fort Devens was considered a safe place to be because no one had been sent to Vietnam from Fort Devens. At least this was the myth that they‟d tell us. Now, to me, that sounds like your number is coming up pretty fast, but I was perfectly willing to go along with it. So, I had had orders for Vietnam for about six weeks before word came back to me. All of the WACs that worked back there with me, they knew but they were very good about not telling me. I think about five nurses got orders at the same time. Some of them were very, very, very upset. One of them had gotten a deferment because she was so not thrilled with it. It was like a six-month deferment and by the time she was eligible again, she‟d only have six months left and that‟s too short a time to send you over. One of them who was married turned up pregnant so she can‟t go. And I want to say there was one other and I don‟t remember what it was, but all of the sudden I was sort of the, I hesitate to use the term „bottom of the barrel‟ but, yes, there was a definite scraping sound. So, whoever in Washington, Major Golden, or whatever said, „Yes. I know that you‟d love to have her there, but we‟re moving her.‟ And I was moving, I had been living on-post at Fort Devens and I‟d moved off to a little place called Littleton, a little winterized cottage near a lake and the owner wanted to sell, so I was moving from that cottage to a place fifteen miles on the other side of Fort Devens in Pepperell and I would load up my little Volkswagen at night and I would drive in in the daytime at Fort Devens and I‟d go to the other place and unload it and I got a phone call one morning and I was standing and looking across the ward and seeing the broom handles sticking out of my little car and this voice said, „Mary Beth?‟ Actually, what she said was, „Lieutenant Sefton. This is Colonel Quinn. I have news for you.‟ „What kind of news?‟ She said, „Vietnam.‟ My first thought was, „What‟s going on in Vietnam?‟ and „Why are you calling me?‟ „Oh, Vietnam!‟ „Oh, orders!‟ “Me.‟ Oh, suddenly all I could think was „Well, it‟s a good thing I signed the military‟ (any place around military base they have the clause in the contract, if you get orders then no penalty for breaking the lease.) So, I said, „Vietnam, when?‟ She said, „Two weeks.‟ And I thought, „Okay. That takes care of things. I don‟t have to move anything!‟ I finished out the day and I figured I would call my mom, call my parents, let „em know. This seemed worth a phone call.” (00:41:05) “Yeah.” (00:41:06) “And I called home and I got my mom on the phone and she said, as soon as she heard my voice, she said, „Oh. I have this great deal.‟ And I said, „What is that?‟ And she said (and I can‟t remember the product), „If you save up these box tops,‟ save enough of them, little coupons, „then you send them in and you get another coupon and if you get two or three (whatever it was) then you get an electric scissors.‟ And she was really pleased with this.” (00:41:36) “I can picture Beth doing this.” �(00:41:38) “No. She did. And she was really delighted with it and she already had one and so the other kids were getting, too. And it works really, really well. And I said, „Mom, how long does this take?‟ Now, Mom may have been excited about the electric scissors, but she is a smart cookie. Immediately, she said, „Why? Do you have orders? Are you going somewhere?‟” (00:41:58) “I said, „Yes. I got orders.‟ And she said, „Where are you going?‟ My throat closed up and I squeaked, „Vietnam.‟ And she said, „Oh, Mary! How wonderful!‟ I said, „Huh?‟ And she was talking about the experience, the friends I would make, how lovely it would be, how much she had enjoyed her term. She was in France and she was also in the Philippines. So, this was the best thing in the world as far as she could tell. And I‟m thinking, „Ah, Mom? Mom? Do you remember me, your first-born daughter? You looked at me and you thought I looked just like a little rose and you thought, „I‟ll never be lonely again. First born. Real bullets, Mom. They‟re shooting at people. Real bullets. And eventually she got the impression, it kind of came to her. Maybe I wasn‟t totally on the same page with her and leaping immediately and she didn‟t want me to feel bad about it so she said, „You know, your Dad, he was with a tank unit and he said they were activated but they were never sent. They didn‟t get orders. They were never sent over. And your brother Mike, he only has about six months left, or two months left (whatever it was at the time) and Billy and David, my younger brothers who are ten or twelve years younger than I am, this is pretty much going to be over by the time they‟re old enough to be in the military. You are the only one in the family that‟s going to get to go to Vietnam.‟ This is good comfort to me. So I cheered right up and said, „Okay, Mom.‟ And it wasn‟t until I came back from Vietnam that I learned that there was Vietnam training involved. When you‟re sent over, you get a few weeks focused training for Vietnam but because my orders had been held up, they decided, „She‟ll be fine.‟” (00:44:26) “Did you get a chance to talk to your dad during that phone conversation with your mom?” (00:44:31) “Can you believe….? He was working late. I assumed she told him. I never asked him. At some point, she would have mentioned it to him.” (00:44:39) “So. Those two weeks then? You were basically just packing, getting ready to go?” (00:44:42) “Packing, getting ready to go, making sure all the charts were signed. And going around and processing myself out of Fort Devens. I got a lot of really good advice, after the fact. When I told my brother that I had spent �like two days hitting like all the little places that you have to go to collect your paperwork, he said, „Why didn‟t you just give some enlisted guy five bucks to do it for you? They could have pencil whipped it in twenty minutes.‟ I said, „Well, I didn‟t know that.” (00:45:21) “Where did you go to leave to go to Vietnam? How did you get to Vietnam? I don‟t want to get too far into Vietnam yet because there‟s a question I have about your arrival that I want to get back to, but what was the process of getting from point A to point B?” (00:45:38) “From Devens, everything had been packed up and stored wherever I was taking with me, whatever, I was put on an airplane and came back and when the stewardess – we had stewardesses back then. It was a long time ago. Do you remember stewardesses?” (00:45:51) “I do.“ (00:45:56) “Good. Anyway, when she heard that I was going to Vietnam, she moved me from coach up to First Class. The first time and only time that I‟ve ever been in first class. Which I thought was…” (00:46:06) “Yeah.” (00:46:07) “….pretty nice. And I came back home and I started packing and sorting and I had a kind of list what to bring to camp. And one of them suggested that you bring a little 30 watt bulb to keep the mildew out of whatever and I was thinking, „Electricity! They‟ve got electricity.‟ Because when we were at Fort Sam, we went through this little mock up Vietnamese village. There was no running water, it was all little hooches and thatched whatever and the trench with the toilet paper sticking up on a stick next to it. This was what I was expecting when I got to Vietnam. Since the newsreels didn‟t show you running water. They showed you jungle and grubbie and mud. And I was going through my list of things and Mom would come in every so often and, „Do you think you‟ll need…I have part of my gas mask you could take with you.‟ I don‟t remember whether she ever found her musette bag or what, but it was….and I got the feeling that had it not been for, say, the other nine kids at home and my dad and the fact that she had a life, it would not have broken her heart to find herself packing her duffel bag and going back with me. But, she told me „Sunsets are beautiful. You‟ll see a lot of sunrises and sunsets.‟ She just gave me a lot of – I guess technically it‟s a lot of positive feedback. It was kind of a not a yearning, a little bit of nostalgia, but kind of a re-living of. I got the feeling from her that I was headed off to someplace positive, which didn‟t hurt at all.” �(00:48:16) “What about your dad? During that period of time, what was his reaction to your going off?” (00:48:23) “I got the hug. The „Good luck.‟ The speech about sunrises again. The, „Be careful and keep your mouth shut.‟ But there was no warnings about, you know, „Watch out for this. Be careful of this.‟ It was kind of like sending one of those little friction toys off…you just give them the best start that you can and then you turn them loose.” (00:48:59) “Yes.” (00:49:01) “…And they said they‟d pray for me. This was good, too.” (00:49:07) “Then you board another airplane and headed off to where?‟ (00:49:13) “I want to say San Francisco. I was thinking about that and the plane was delayed twice. I was supposed to be in San Francisco just a few hours but one of those mysterious whatevers had come up.” (00:49:25) “Now, you‟re traveling by yourself or were there other nurses?” (00:49:27) “Well, I was traveling by myself. There may have been another group of nurses at some point but literally during the time that I was packing my duffel bag, my grandmother had died so my mother‟s mother who lived us for twenty years so we got extended another couple days extra days because of the funeral. So if I was supposed to meet up with this little clump of nurses who were traveling, I missed the boat.” (00:49:56) “Right.” (00:49:57) “So I did San Francisco alone and then over to Vietnam. A long flight. Very long. We stopped in Guam. We stopped in Hawaii.” (00:50:13) “As you know, I grew up in Asia and I‟ve talked to a lot of people who‟ve never been to Asia of any kind. They get off the airplane and I assume you got off the airplane in….” (00:50:23) “I got off the airplane.” (00:50:25) “….okay. What happened?” �(00:50:28) “That‟s what happened. I was expecting, „Boom!‟ No running water. I was expecting mud. I was expecting tents, hooches. When I stepped off, I was expecting heat. When I stepped off the very air conditioned plane, and the heat, it was a lot like walking into a steam bath. It was incredibly hot and over the P.A. system, the loud speaker was Credence Clearwater Revival singing, „Willie and the Poor Boy.‟ And I thought, „Not quite what I expected.‟ And, to this day, whenever I hear that song, bam! Coming down the plane in Benwa. Orange juice cans.” (00:51:22) “Really?” (00:51:23) “No, that was Thailand.” (00:51:25) “Okay. I was just going to say. Because Asia smells differently than anywhere else you‟re ever going to go. There‟s such a mixture of everything. You just don‟t get here in America. I mean, Americans are westerners, if you want to put it that way. You can explain it as much as you can to somebody but they won‟t grasp it until they actually walk into it and you‟re suddenly…every sense in your body is in a foreign…” (00:51:48) “What was that?” (00:51:50) “Yeah.” (00:51:52) “It‟s like trying to explain to people who don‟t have kids, what it‟s like to have kids. Save your breath. You can never convey it and you‟re just going to sound like an idiot and preserve dignity at all costs. There was this smell. There was just acres and acres of concrete.” (00:52:09) “Where did you actually arrive? What was the airport?” (00:52:12) “Benwa.” (00:52:14) “Okay, Benwa airport. And this is a major staging area for…” (00:52:17) “I think Benwa. It could have been Longbin, but I think Benwa. I know we had to go on a bus from one to the other. Wherever the replacement was…..and again, I was not expecting running water. We were put in a little actually, we were put in a large tent and they made a lot of speeches about what to expect and this wasn‟t just nurses, it was all the incoming people. I met a lot of nice people there. We were waiting for our assignments to come in. Theoretically, all the paperwork was out there someplace but, as I said, talk �about running water, I was very surprised that there was running water and concrete bathroom and little geckos climbing all over. A touch I hadn‟t thought of. And I turned on the water – nice, potable water. You could actually drink it – the water runs into the sink, but there‟s nothing connecting the sink to anything, it just runs directly onto the floor and then there‟s a main drain. So it was at least kind of a step down from what I was….or a step up, whatever. The water was running. It was good.” (00:53:38) “Where did you go from the airport then? Were you immediately put to a base?” (00:53:45) ””The replacement depot, where people…it‟s sort of like. This is like, as I recall, some bazillion years later, hooches that were just wooden, with lots of screens and you would go to the boards or something there were a couple of postings or listings, to check and see if your name was on the listing and when you were supposed to leave for wherever it was.” (00:54:24) “All right.” (00:54:26) “And, since I didn‟t have orders because my first orders had been invalidated because I wasn‟t there, they were looking for a spot for me and they said, „Where would you like to go?‟ Well, this is like, I‟m deciding what to do…my future is hanging….where do I want to go? Give me a map and a dart.” (00:54:47) “There‟s some temples I‟ve always wanted to see.” (00:54:49) “I didn‟t even know about the temples. But I knew that my friend Judy Tripler was in Plaku, and I‟d heard of Saigon. I‟d heard of Cameron Bay and they‟d offered me several places and when they mentioned Plaku, I thought, „Ah. Tripler‟s in Plaku. Plaku would be good.‟ So I said Plaku and they looked at me like „Okay‟ I thought „Oh, oh.‟ So I went up to Plaku. It took a little while for me to get up there.” (00:55:23) “This is still 1969 there?” (00:55:26) “Yes.” (00:55:27) “Okay.” (00:55:29) “And there was still a war on. So I was trundled up to Plaku with all my worldly possessions in a duffel bag. And Tripler was not there. She was back in the states because her dad had died. So I wrote her a letter that said, „I‟m here. Where are you?‟ Plaku is probably the best kept secret of the war. It was central highlands. It was not as humid. It was known as rocket city, for �obvious reasons but it was…there were Montagnards there, the mountain people. They were more primitive than the Vietnamese.” (00:56:16) “We‟d call them aborigines. Would that be correct? They kind of had their own little culture. Mountain people.”\ (00:56:25) “Yeah. I found them absolutely lovely. I didn‟t speak enough anything but apparently they either understood….there were some missionaries in the area who spoke Montagnard but it was a little bit different than the rest of Vietnam.” (00:56:51) “Okay. What was the base? Was it a base? I mean, give us an idea visually of when you arrived in…” (00:56:59) ”Visually? Okay. You‟re coming in and you see this big chain link fence and there‟s a dividing line and there‟s the usual Army looking complex. Actually, there were some stucco building areas there that were left over from the French. And there‟s this dividing line, helipad, and the dividing line. On this side it‟s kind of mud, grey, reddish mud. On the other side, there‟s sidewalks and grass and concrete structures with roofs on them, little gardens little concrete stairs going….Air Force. Army. And I will leave it up to you to sort out which is which. They could grow grass!” (00:57:53) “Oh.” (00:57:54) ”You were talking about the smell, the scent. Marigolds, too. I always think of marigolds as little things that edge the garden.” (00:57:59) “Sure.” (00:58:00) “Marigold bushes higher than this table, just huge ones. I thought, „It looks like marigolds. Smells like marigolds. Who knew they would grow like that?‟” (00:58:16) “Where were you assigned in this group. I mean were you in a tent or in a building or what?” (00:58:20) ”I was in a concrete building, amazingly enough.” (00:58:25) “Bunk beds, or…?” (00:58:26) “Single room.” (00:58:27) “Really?” �(00:58:30) “Yes. I was a nurse. An officer. A female. Outrank almost anybody I can see.” (00:58:39) “Wow! What was your immediate, your first day on the job, let‟s put it that way. What did you do? Did you walk into a room and there‟s a hospital here?” (00:58:49) “You were supposed to get the first aid tour you all through everything and they tell you things like…there‟s this paperwork and they look at your clearance and I accidentally had higher clearance than generic, normal nurses did because once upon a time in Fort Devens, some secret squirrel had been in some kind of a bad accident and they wanted to take him into surgery and they wanted to recover him somewhere, but not in a ward where possibly the baddies would hear him say secret squirrel stuff he wasn‟t supposed to say. So they thought, „Where should we put him where he isn‟t likely to be in the mix? O.B. department, that would be good. No one will think of that.‟” (00:59:40) “Well, sure.” (00:59:41) ”You have to have someone with a higher, not top secret, but higher to recover him in case he divulges this stuff.” (00:59:50) “Where‟s the bomb, or something.” (00:59:55) “Mostly, he wanted to know where his mom was. That was pretty typical. But, this was just before I went to Vietnam so they changed the clearance, but if they changed it back, the paperwork never caught up.” (01:00:06) “All right.” (01:00:08) ”It never caught up until I was coming back. So, they‟d look at the paperwork and say, „Oh.‟ Of course, you can‟t ask. If someone has a higher clearance than you, you can‟t ask. You can‟t say, „Why is this?‟ because the response tends to be, „Do you need to know this?‟” (01:00:21) “Right. Right.” (01:00:22) “So what they would tell me was, „Okay. Now this is headquarters. See that file cabinet? See that little button on top? If we‟re overrun, you come and pound that button and acid will destroy all the files.‟ If we‟re overrun, possibly, I‟m going to be taking care of my patients and the last thing on my mind will be racing over there and hitting something that‟s going to make acid fall all over. I thought, „They‟ve got to be kidding.‟ And I‟ve never actually �researched it to find out if they were kidding or not. This could be just the stuff they tell you when you come in-country. There‟s a lot of stories that you tell you when you come in-country.” (01:01:05) ”Let‟s get an idea about a typical day the first week that you were there. What was the first week like?” (01:01:14) “It was getting used to the people, trying to remember who was who.” (01:01:17) ”How many people were you surrounded by? What was your… I‟m trying to get an idea of how big or small this hospital staff was? Or this medical staff.” (01:01:27) ”You‟re talking ancient memories here. We had a sixty bed, sixty bed unit. I was on a surgical unit and we had not just the G.I.s, we had Vietnamese, we had Montagnards, we had little kids that had come in for surgery. It was fairly quiet. We would have two, sometimes two or three, of course I was training or orienting under another nurse but usually there‟d be one nurse, there‟d be two nurses assigned who worked twelve hour shifts, but if it was quiet, you could do eight hours and overlap in the middle and eight hours. Each one of you would do eight hours and overlap. It depended upon how busy you were. I got part of, part of the difficulty in not getting the focused Vietnam training was the corpsmen would always tell me I‟m corpsmen‟s work because one of the things you had to chart on was the conditions of the wounds. And if I wasn‟t to write that the wound is clean and granulated and healing, I really needed to see that wound and make sure that what I‟m saying is true. In order to see it, you have to take the dressing off and look at it. As long as you have the dressing off, you might as well clean it and put it back together.” (01:02:52) “And that‟s not your job…” (01:02:54) “Actually, it was my job, but the corpsmen did a lot of that. Our corpsmen were ninety-one Charlies. 91 C-3, whatever. It‟s the designation, more official military terms. But these are the guys who are essentially combat medics. A, B and C. A is very low-level. But, my corpsmen were perfectly qualified to be medics on the field. They would be six months in the field, six months rotate through. Sometimes, they‟d stay in one spot. But, they can probably start IVs better than I can, depending upon where they are. But then you get a little territorial with the nurses so, can they take blood pressures, or not? I think so. Can they give injections? Sure they can. What‟s magic about this? And, there were a lot of G.I.s who‟d really rather not bare their hip to a nurse and to have some other guy come and stick them with a needle? That‟s fine. When I came back, I found what the division was. I always thought the �corpsman was supposed to be opening the dressings and then I run over and look at it. That seemed kind of useless.” (01:04:13) ”I got back to this one question about how big it was? I‟m trying to get an idea of how big it was? Sixty beds, sixty beds but I‟m not looking for exact numbers. What I‟m trying to do, Mary Beth, is get a visualization of the environment you are working in. Are we talking about…?” (01:04:30) “It was really small. It was small and it eventually downsized to an aid station but it was…Saigon would be the big field hospitals. Big hospitals in Da Nang and in Saigon. Cameron Bay was big. Plaku was small.” (01:04:51) “Would you say that this was a, and I‟m unfamiliar with the terminology, a staging area where you kind of settled, get somebody ready to go to a major hospital, or…?” (01:05:04) “We were sort of an evac hospital. We would get the guys coming in from the field that come into R. and E. R. and E.? R. and D. Receiving and disposition, whatever. We had a search crew unit there, we had a burn unit there, we had medical units there for the guys with malaria and whatever other ugly bugs had gotten to them. We had several surgical units, so it was big enough to be a…when I say hospital, the units are all laid out separately. It‟s not like it‟s one big building. It‟s small.” (01:05:45) “Okay. The burn unit is here…” (01:05:46) “Well, there‟s a big concrete, the main part, the burn unit and the intensive care section were together, but there were other. I think that‟s right. Each unit was kind of a separate, functioning area.” (01:06:17) “Let‟s take as an example, somewhere nearby, a battle goes on, a G.I. or several G.I.s get hurt. They get helicoptered, right…?” (01:06:22) “Yes.” (01:06:24) “…by helicopter. Did you have a helicopter pad there?” (01:06:25) “Down by Army.” (01:06:27) “So, you‟re getting, right fresh from the battle, wounded people who medics have patched together to the best of their ability. Which, as I understand it…” �(01:06:35) “And they did a nice job.” (01:06:35) “That‟s what I was going to say. Yeah. So now they arrive, and almost like that MASH, guys are running up to meet the helicopter and they bring somebody to your unit. What happens? Here‟s a guy with burns and he‟s had his leg damaged. What happens?” (01:06:53) “They are triaged as soon as the come in.” (01:06:56) “Which means…” (01:06:58) “We know what triage is. But who knows how long…” (01:07:00) “I‟ve watched MASH. I‟ve seen…” (01:07:02) “MASH was very understated. They‟re sorted out. If they need absolute, immediate treatment in order to stay alive…” (01:07:12) “So there are doctors…” (01:07:14) “Not just doctors. Everybody‟s there.” (01:07:18) “Saying, „Okay. This is a guy that can wait five minutes. This guy‟s gotta go in now.” (01:07:20) “Yes. „Arterial bleeding, take him in.‟” (01:07:21) “All right.“ (01:07:23) “And then they‟re sorted out into where they‟re going.” (01:07:27) “Before this experience here, we‟re talking about here, had you had any experience before…you‟d had experience with broken legs, you‟d had experience with…had you ever had the experience where, „There‟s a guy who‟s leg was just blown off.‟” (01:07:44) “We‟d had paper experience with it. That was one of the things we‟d had at Fort Sam was learning triage and you had to go through, there‟s pretty specific things you watch for in triage. No. Not, up that point. Very few people I knew had had their legs blown off.” (01:08:03) What was your first experience? I know that this was a long time ago and I‟m not trying to get the down and dirty details, �but…incoming. I don‟t know what the terminology is, but here comes the wounded. (01:08:15) “What sticks in my mind?” (01:08:16) ‟‟Yes.” (01:08:18) “What sticks in my mind is not necessarily coming in as Army, but could be an emergency. R & D is research and development.” (01:08:23) “Okay.” (01:08:24) “On my unit, taking off this huge dressing. D.P.C., delayed primary closure. Somewhere along the line, someone decided that if you have an open wound and you sew it up real quick, then you‟re sewing in a lot of bugs in there. If you leave it open and you clean it every four, six, eight, twelve hours, then it will heal faster. Of course, this means that you have this gaping wound for a while, but they heal must cleaner and you get a much higher survival rate, which is good. Well the Montagnard man who was sitting on the bed and he looked a like Omar Sharif. And I took the dressing off his arm, it was a big, fat, fluffy dressing. Took it off his arm and now I‟m looking through his arm. There‟s a bone coming up here and there‟s nothing in between and there‟s the little skinny bone over there. And I was thinking, „Okay.‟ But he seemed perfectly confident that I could handle this and I figured, „Well, I can handle this.‟ We had been through the goat lab at Fort Sam where you learned to deal with wounds. They have these shot goats so you learn how to deal with a gunshot wound. The burns I think were worse than bleeding. Bleeding wounds have never really gotten to me, except for Maxillofacial. Face wounds and only because all of the sudden you can identify something. It looks like a plate of hamburger, unidentifiable and all of the sudden an eye will open in the middle of it and you think, „Woah! Hello!‟ It wasn‟t, I don‟t want to say it wasn‟t horribly traumatic, but it was, because I‟d worked in the operating room before and working O.B. is not always neat and pretty.” (01:10:36) This is really the point that I think that it amazes me. It was your training. This military training, to an outsider like myself who confronts that kind of horror, I‟m thinking horror. But you‟ve been trained to take care of that. So, yeah, you may sit back later and say, „Well that was a horrible thing and I hope the guy doesn‟t die‟ or whatever, but if you panic, you‟re reacting like I might react and you‟re not doing your job.” �(01:11:04) “Well, it‟s like an auto mechanic. When his car goes „ticket-a-ticketa-ticketa and smoke starts pouring out, he thinks, „Danged head gasket.‟ I think, „I‟m going to die.‟ or „How much is this going to cost?‟ It‟s the training. It‟s what you‟re familiar with and if you‟re, I won‟t say comfortable with it, but if you know what to do. It‟s like any kind of emergency preparedness, if you know what to do, if you have some clue what you‟re supposed to be doing, then you can go ahead and do that and by the time you‟re done with it, you can think, „Oh. I guess it‟s a little late to start screaming and panicking now.‟” (01:11:42) “You know, I think that‟s one of the things that‟s been fascinating to me, interviewing vets that have gone through very traumatic experiences and looking back on it from a different generation or from a different perspective of never having gone through that, you wonder how could they have done that but that‟s the point, you trained to do it and you did it because somebody‟s life depended upon that.” (01:12:03) “Scott O‟Grady, the pilot who was shot down first during the Persian War. He was stuck in one spot, the other guys all around him and he made it out, called in the company. And when they asked later, they were trying to make him a major hero, he said, essentially, „I was just a scared little bunny rabbit, but I‟d had the training and I did exactly what I was supposed to do and it worked. Of course, some people do exactly what they‟re supposed to do and it doesn‟t work.” (01:12:45) “The movie MASH, the TV series MASH, gives the impression of kind of an orchestrated chaos. Of course, that‟s what a director does, it was not actually….but did you have a sense of all these things are going on around you, but every piece is being dealt with. How would you describe, the helicopters come in. There‟s a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be done. Give us an idea of what‟s going on.” (01:13:21) “It‟s kind of hard to give an idea but everybody does their job and keeps working and nobody looks up and says, „Oh. There‟s thousands of people out there.‟ You know there‟s more people coming in. You do what you do as efficiently as you can and then you go to the next on and you deal with that and you trust that the people around you are doing their part so that when you finish there‟s not going to be someone left over who has not been treated. Everybody does what they‟ve been trained to do. It is not as hectic MASH, ER. There has to be a certain amount of drama in it, otherwise it‟s bad television and we wouldn‟t want that. But the training you have and the stuff that you do, you‟re comfortable with it and you can do it, I don‟t want to say with your eyes closed, but you‟re used to it. You‟ve practiced it over and over again and it‟s just like doing any kind of a drill.” �(01:14:28) “I‟ve spoken to many different vets who worked together whether it‟s in combat or not in combat, but under great stress like that. How are relationships formed or not formed with your fellow people? Is there a sense of I want to distance myself from them or am I part of this group and there‟s a real strong sense of camaraderie? What is the interaction between the nurses, the doctors, the corpsmen?” (01:14:52) “You work very closely with the corpsmen. Most of the time there‟ll be a nurse with maybe three corpsmen. So you work really more closely with the corpsmen than you do with the other nurses because nurses are very rare. The doctors come through, you get a….of course, it depends on what unit you‟re on, too. You work more closely than you would in a civilian hospital with the people. You are also living with them. It‟s not like they come in on the bus. I learned a lot from my corpsmen. I learned a lot from pretty much everybody I met but I learned a lot from my corpsmen. Some of them were old beyond their years and some of them were just incredibly young. There are bonds that were – forged is a good word – that were completely, will last forever, unbreakable. I may never see any of them again, and their names may slip around a bit, but pop up the face and the name is, yes!” (01:16:10) It really amazes me and I‟d have the same experience if I interviewed your mom, is it, you may not be thinking about it but now we‟re sitting back here in this comfortable studio, talking without thinking any given moment that you‟re dealing with somebody‟s life and it may be gone and it‟s your job to make sure that doesn‟t happen. And it just amazes me. You don‟t think about that while you‟re doing it though, right? You‟re just doing it.” (01:16:38) “Exactly. You know you say a lot of prayers while you‟re doing it, too. It‟s something that you do. It‟s not something that you ever get bored with or blasé about, or you‟re not interest in anymore because that‟s too important. You hear a lot about burnout. You can get stressed, you can get burnt out but for the most part the people who get that stressed, some will recognize it and say, „You are cranky. Go away.‟ And then they‟ll bring someone – because I worked on the surgical unit and not the intensive care unit all the time – if they needed, if somebody needed a break, I would go in occasionally and fill in just so that somebody else could come out and take a deep breath, get themselves grounded again, then go back in.” (01:17:27) “Let‟s just do that. What is the experience of getting to that point and did it ever happen to you? Where you just fell apart. I need to go take a break.” �(01:17:39) “I was having a good time.” (01:17:43) “Okay. Let‟s look at it from a different perspective. Let‟s look at a particularly difficult period where, either you‟re working at night, you‟re keeping these guys alive, well, everything‟s been settled. Everything‟s now under control. What‟s the feeling as you walk out and you sit down and you know that all is well, for that moment anyway?” (01:18:08) “Finishing the night should then, once you walk out of the unit, go back to your hootch, then you realize what else is going on around you. I was never, I‟d count the helicopters. The helicopters would go out for the first light flights and I‟d try not to, but I could lie in my hootch, the screen windows were about this high, actually and see the choppers going out and I‟d try not to count them, but I counted to twenty-seven, thirteen, whatever it was. And, about the time it was for me to get up and go back to work again, they‟re coming back in. I‟m trying not to count them because if there‟s only twenty-six or twenty…..I don‟t want to hear about it. But when you‟re off, you get to talk to the other people if they happen to be off at the same time. You find yourself fraternizing with people working your same shift, my friend Tripler who was there, she was in the hootch right across from me but she worked a different unit.” (01:19:26) “So she can‟t…” (01:19:28) “Yes she can. We had a fine time and yes, I ran into her after Vietnam and she‟s in New Jersey. She‟s a midwife. Very good.” (01:19:38) “We‟re going to wind this down now, but as was with your dad, we‟re going to have to do this again. There‟s a lot more to do with your experiences. So in the last ten or so minutes, I‟m going to ask you some direct questions that have to do with your experiences but the next time we get together, I‟m going to get much more into, not only experiences while you were there, but then you moved on to another location, is that right?” (01:20:04) “Yes. In Vietnam with the 85th.” (01:20:07) “Then of course there‟s the trip home and there‟s a whole bunch of things we need to get into. But, you come from a family of both mother and father being experienced veterans. In the case of your father, as a paratrooper, very proud of what he accomplished and of course, very thankful that he got out without a scratch. And your mom saw as many as if not, well as many of the horrors that you‟ve �experienced. When you got back, a lot of the Vietnam veterans that I‟ve spoken to, and it‟s not limited to Vietnam, World War II guys that got back, they didn‟t talk about it. They just,‟Get on with my life. I went out and saved my country. Now it‟s time to start a family, get on with my life.‟ Because of the uniqueness of your mother and father‟s background did they, were they curious or were you anxious to talk to them about your experience? What happened when you got back? Not just immediately after you got back, but was there discussion about your experience compared with your mother‟s experience?” (01:21:21) “We never really sat down and debriefed about it. It was the same as with Dad. If we were talking about something and it came up in the conversation, it was never a forbidden topic but it was part of my life and if they asked a question, it was not a secret. You talk about that there was a lot of hostility, animosity, whatever towards Vietnam vets coming back, but bear in mind, I was invisible as a Vietnam vet coming back. As soon as the uniform is off, I don‟t look like a vet any more. So, I did not get that really hostile or the hatred or whatever focused. I saw it on, everybody else was getting it, but when maybe 1975, sorry ‟85, I was accidentally in Detroit and they had the DVA convention and someone asked me when I first admitted that I was a Vietnam vet. Well, let‟s see. I got out in ‟72, probably April of ‟72 that I started admitting that. So it was never a secret. I try not to brag about it.” (01:22:53) “We were talking earlier when I was looking at your Library of Congress Veteran‟s History Project bio sheet the thing that struck me was that you got out on April 18th, 1972 and April 11th, 1972, I was walking into the draft board to register for the draft to go to Vietnam and I was told, basically, „It‟s over, kid. Go home.‟ “ (01:23:18) “So you didn‟t get to go, either?” (01:23:20) “I didn‟t get to go.” (01:23:23) “Dang! Well, I went for you.” (01:23:24) “Well, I‟ll tell you a lot of you did.” (01:23:26) “I actually saw something, years ago. A nurse who was being interviewed for an oral history project. But she said something that‟s always struck me and the gist of it was that we were there in your place, in place of the mothers, the sisters, the wives who couldn‟t be there and she said that she just wanted people to know, we did our best. We tried to take care of people, we treated everyone the way we would treat a father, a brother, a husband. We were really doing our best to take care of them and nobody was just a number. �He was just a leg, or. I‟ve forgotten all the names, for the most part but nobody was just something to be scooted along. I know it‟s popular in stories or media or whatever to make everybody pretty much faceless, but they were all distinct. You were always aware of the people that were there.” (01:24:37) “I want to thank you very much for taking the time out to do this. I want to ask you one more question. Of course, that‟s with the understanding that I‟m going to ask you a lot more questions later and tomorrow night I‟m looking forward to having you and your mother on stage at the Ford Museum and we‟re going to talk about a lot of these things. How do you feel your military experience shaped you as the person that you are today.” (01:25:02) “It made me totally intolerant. I appreciate, actually, I appreciate pretty much everything. I am so aware that everything I have is a gift. And, I appreciate people who do their jobs well and it doesn‟t matter what the job is. It‟s a delight to me to find somebody who likes what they do and does it. I like the feeling that, things were very simple in Vietnam. It was do your job and stay alive. I didn‟t have to, no concern at all about car payments. rent, groceries, anything like that. It was very, very simplified. And sometimes you get layers and layers and layers of complications, convolutions. But, everything was very simple, and very basic and it really felt like you were doing something for a purpose and once you had that feeling, there was a reason that you do stuff, it gives you a strength, it gives you something to draw on. It makes you; it gives you an idea of your own worth. That‟s very, very hard to; you can‟t give it to someone. It has to come from inside. That forging, that bond that the experience when you come back to the states, you have that feeling that I have done something. Essentially, this is worth it. And it‟s kind of a standard you get to measure whatever else you‟re doing. I wouldn‟t trade it for anything.” (01:27:02) “Thank you very much.” (01:27:03) “Anytime. My pleasure.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeftonM Title A name given to the resource Sefton, Mary B. (Interview transcript and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sefton, Mary B. Description An account of the resource Mary Sefton is a Vietnam War veteran who served in the U.S. Army from 1968 to April 1972. In her interview transcript she goes into a detailed account of the events surrounding her pre-enlistment, enlistment and training; her tours in Vietnam, and life after the Vietnam War. Besides this, she offers a unique perspective as a nurse of what the fighting meant in the hospitals of Vietnam as well as what the ground fighting was like for U.S. troops. In addition, she shares what U.S. civilians thought of returning veterans and finally her thoughts on her service experience. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-02-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/59a7ce8c5b9fb12e59062caaa9e81de0.mp4 e7dc78261994939ff73232b9e3cd1922 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46446413df1352a1e74cd86bbe6684f1.pdf 2306a2e5478678b186623fe5331710f7 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW BETH SEFTON Born: May 30, 1921 in Sioux City, Iowa Resides: Interviewed by: Frank , Michigan Military Museum Transcribed by: Claire Herhold, January 29, 2013 Interviewer: Beth, let’s begin with the most basic of things. Where and when were you born? 1:02:25 I was born in Sioux City, Iowa, May 30th, 1921, so I’m now eighty two years old. Interviewer: What was your home town like? What was Sioux City like during that time? Sioux City was a typical Midwestern, all-white, town and so my family was a little bit of an oddity because my father was Chinese and my mother was English and German and therefore we were like a black would be to the South in those years. 1:03:22 Except that I think it was more noticeable because of the fact that we were conscious of it. Interviewer: Where did you go to school? First off, not high school or anything, but where did you first go to school? I first went to school at Irving School. It was just about five blocks from my house and it was a typical public school. My teachers were wonderful and I had lots of friends. 1:04:00 Interviewer: So you didn’t experience any real problems with the fact that your father was Chinese at this point? No, I think a lot of the prejudice was in family stuff, at least until I got into high school. Interviewer: Well, tell us about what was your high school experience like? Well, the only problems I had with prejudice there was the fact that some of the mothers were not happy with the fact that their sons liked me. In fact, one mother kept her son out of school a half a year so that he would not graduate with us. �Interviewer: Did you actually personally feel any kind of animosity or did you actually feel like there was some reason why you were different than the other kids? 1:05:01 No, not with the rest of the population. In fact, I think we were, both my brother and I were very intelligent, smart kids and so if anything we got preferential treatment. Interviewer: Did your parents ever sit you down at any time that you can remember and say that, you know, people out there might treat you differently? Oh, I think my mother was the cause of that. Interviewer: Because, you know, it’s very strange to say this but I’m half Russian and when I first came to America as a child, and of course the Cold War was going on, my mother sat me down and made sure to say, you know, don’t ever tell anybody you’re Russian because there might be problems, you know, so I kind of relate to what you’re saying. In high school then…you graduated from high school. Did you have any idea of what you wanted to do after high school? 1:06:00 Well, this was the middle of the Depression and our money was limited so it was, and the careers for women were limited also, so it was either a matter of college or nursing, and nursing was much more reasonable and much more accessible so I chose nursing. Interviewer: You know, I think a lot of people today wouldn’t quite understand because they don’t understand really what a depression is and in a depression your options are so limited in terms of what you can do. Did nursing cost anything or did you get a scholarship? How did you actually get the chance to become a nurse? 1:07:00 Well, my, let’s see, it was my brother’s wife had a baby in St. Vincent’s Hospital and I was impressed with the hospital itself and I know my brother had said to me, “Babe, you better decide what you want to do.” And so, I looked at the difference, and as far as cost it was very �reasonable because it was a school of nursing. They did not have colleges at the time that taught nursing, and so I had to pay, oh I think it was like a hundred dollars for uniforms and things like that, but most of it was that we worked for our, like what would be tuition, was what we worked. 1:08:21 We worked in the hospital from the time that we were “probies.” We first went in two hours and then four hours and so that we actually formed the staff of the hospital, and because in St. Vincent’s there were no interns we really had an excellent education and we still managed to get all of the subjects in that were taught by doctors and by nurses and by the Briar Cliff College also. 1:09:01 But it was a do-it-yourself more than now if you want to be a nurse, you have to go to college. Interviewer: Two things: what’s a “probie?” A “probie” is a probationer. Just a short name for a probationer when you start out. Interviewer: Now you had mentioned there was a college involved. Were you actually taking classes at any time during the day? Oh yes, we took classes in the day and in the evenings so beside our work we also had two to four hours of classes along with it. Interviewer: Are we picking up that sound? There’s a blower going on? Okay, good. 1:10:00 So what was this experience? Did you enjoy this experience? What was this experience like of working as a “probie,” if you will? Oh, you were not a “probie” long. It was about like a there month period, you see. But I loved nursing. I loved it from the very start, and I loved the people. I loved the work. I loved everything about it. Interviewer: What kind of nursing were you doing at this time? �Oh, the kind of nursing that we did was the entire range of things. We did the wards and private patients, but every kind of disease that they deal with in the hospitals is what we did. 1:11:03 We had gallbladders and appendixes and fractures, all those injuries plus a lot of people that had age diseases. I can remember we had a ward of old men there that had some of the old diseases that you don’t even see anymore with these ascites and the big abdomens and things that don’t happen as much now. Interviewer: I have a notice here, “Beatrice, loving watchful eye?” What is that? Oh, Sister Beatrice. I was, St. Vincent’s was ran by the nuns, and Sister Beatrice was the, actually my first paying job outside of the hospital. 1:12:04 We were in training for three years and they were, the nuns were very meticulous and they watched you, all of the nuns did, but Sister Beatrice was my first operating room supervisor outside of the hospital. Interviewer: In December of 1941, American was shocked at the attack on Pearl Harbor. Do you remember that day? Oh, I remember the attack on Pearl Harbor because I was doing my public health nursing. You went through the entire phases. 1:13:03 Psychiatric nursing, public health nursing, surgeries, obstetrics, everything. But I was on one of my last rotations and this was public health and I was in the car with the public health nurse and we heard it on the radio. And we were really shocked and it’s something just like the death of President Kennedy that you will never forget when we realized when we’d been attacked. Interviewer: What was your immediate reaction to that? What I’m trying to get at, is that you’re a nurse, we’re now at war. Was there any reaction in terms of …some of the pilots that I’ve talked to in the past always said, “I’m going to join up, I’m going to go, and go fight.” 1:14:05 What was your reaction? �My reaction to whether I should join the service was, I couldn’t at the moment because I wasn’t out of training. My brother was already in the war. He had joined up ahead because that also was an out when we were in this depression and you couldn’t get jobs anywhere and so he joined the service. And so he was up in Camp Grant, Illinois and of course he said, “Don’t join.” And I wasn’t really qualified yet because I didn’t graduate until 1942, which was, May of 1942. 1:15:07 And then I felt that I needed to have a little outside experience outside of that hospital before I ever would think of that. However, the real crux of the matter is that the longer we were in the war, the more you felt the pressure of having to, wanting to join, wanting to be a part of it, and the need to be. We were tremendously busy at the hospital where I worked. We were on call every other day and we just were very, very busy and so they kept saying, “Join.” And so everyone that was a young nurse at our hospital was already thinking of joining. 1:16:04 Two of the girls that I worked with became Navy nurses and another one an Army nurse. So we were all on limited time in our jobs it seemed like, and it was like, they pointed a finger at you, “We want you,” like that poster. And you really felt that you were obligated to, you wanted to really be part of it. I think that World War II was probably the most patriotic of all wars and certainly the most fervent, complete, the whole country was behind it so that you just felt that you had to be part of it. Interviewer: So in March of 1943, you were talking about like the radios and news venues were clamoring, but at this point they were clamoring for nurses, or at least that came to your attention, is that right? 1:17:10 I felt like the radio announcements and the, all of the news media was clamoring for nurses, and of course, like everything, like even now, they’re always clamoring for nurses to join or so. But it was also an altruistic feeling of wanting to, not necessarily having to, but wanting to. �Interviewer: What did you do in reaction to that? Well, in reaction to the feelings that I had and how the country was going, I…of course, I had to consider my mother who didn’t want me to join, of course. 1:18:16 There were only the two of us. But I really felt it was necessary, and so I, I was already a Red Cross nurse because as we graduated from nursing school we joined the Red Cross. And all of the nurses of that era went to the army through the Red Cross. We were not considered Army nurses as much as we were Red Cross Nurses. And so you had to have that backing before you were allowed to join the Army. 1:19:05 Actually, we did not become part of the regular Army until a while after that I was in it, and I didn’t even realize that. I thought I was an Army nurse right from the beginning. But then about, oh I forget how many months in, they had us sign something that made us really Army nurses and not just Red Cross nurses. Interviewer: For those people who do not have any background in this, why couldn’t, I mean, American males could join the Navy or join the Army or join the Marines. Did you have an option? No, there was no option to join the services that way. In fact, it was considered separate. The nurses were not considered a part of the Army at first. 1:20:00 Thank God I didn’t know that at the time because I don’t think any of us realized that we were not an integral part of the Army itself until afterwards. And then of course when the WACs and the WAVES, Women’s Auxiliary Corps and all of this, came in afterwards we were a little resentful because they got in so much easier than we did with so much less training. Interviewer: So you join up in the Army Nurse Corps. Where were you stationed and what was your experience? What did you learn there? �When I joined the service my first station was Schick General Hospital in Clinton, Iowa and it was a big general hospital. 1:21:03 It had the famous neurosurgeons and it was, I found out later that it had not been established as long as I thought it had, but it was an entire campus of…and there were training units, medical units, on the hill. All of them training to go overseas, but this general hospital did all types of surgery, and of course I was an operating room nurse and I was in on all of these new ideas and all the new metals that they were using, titanium and all of this stuff that was brand new. 1:22:01 Now you must remember that at this time there was just the beginning of penicillin and sulfa was just first being used. There were so many new innovations that were just beginning at this time. Interviewer: Now let me understand this. You’re now at Schick General Hospital. You’re training in these neurosurgical techniques, but you’re in the military. Don’t you have to go through basic training or anything like that? Oh, we had basic training at Schick General Hospital. In fact, one of the…we had marches, we had calisthenics. We also had gas masks where we had to go through a tent and learn how to put the gas mask on. 1:23:00 And we had, I don’t know what they had in it, but they did have some sort of gas that was very strong and we really had a tremendous basic training. Interviewer: Well, give us an idea of what a typical day would be like. I mean, we’ve interviewed your husband, we’ve interviewed other vets. You know, they’d get up in the morning, they’d have to do this. But you’re a nurse, so what was sort of a typical day like during this very first part of your training? It’s hard to remember exactly… Interviewer: That’s all right. �…what a typical day was but I don’t remember whether we did it in different days that they took you out to do that or whether it was part of a daily thing. But what we did is, I know that we had surgeries all day long and we an eight hour duty period. 1:24:09 But there must have been time out when we would have these marches and all of the training scheduled but I just don’t recall exactly how it was. Interviewer: That’s okay. In November of ’43 you made a big decision that literally affected the rest of your life. Instead of staying in the safety of Schick, I understand you volunteered. I volunteered to go overseas in November of ’43. This was very tempting to want to stay in this absolutely wonderful surgery place, but I also felt that what I joined the Army for was to help the soldiers that were going to be in this fight and so of course there I had to be overseas and not in the safety of the big general hospital here. 1:25:28 Interviewer: Now your mom was not happy when you joined the army to begin with, but she must have really wondered about this. What was your mom’s reaction to your wanting to go overseas? I think she felt, after I joined the Army, it was completely out of her hands. My mother was always concerned with the fact that we were in harm’s way. 1:26:00 But she knew that, she knew that I was going to make my own decisions. Interviewer: So once you volunteered for overseas duty, what happened next? Well, after I volunteered for overseas duty I was sent on a train to Camp Rucker, Alabama. We were in long wooden barracks. There were thirteen, about thirty people to a barracks, all in one room. And there were like two toilets at the end of the room where you could face each other �almost. So there was much less privacy and you learned more and more to be buddies with everybody. 1:27:05 [Long pause as phone rings and crew members shuffle] I’ve forgotten what we were talking about. Interviewer: Yeah, me too. I was going to Camp Rucker. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. So you’re at Camp Rucker now. I had a question though. This is in Alabama. Oh yes, Camp Rucker, Alabama. Interviewer: Was there any… we had heard earlier on to your being half Chinese…did you experience any problem there about this or was this not even an issue? 1:28:02 There was no issue at all with my ancestry after I got in the Army. However, Camp Rucker, Alabama was in the deep South and so I was shocked to find out how much there was still the separation of the two, the blacks and the whites, in the South. I can remember feeling outraged that the blacks would step off the pavement so the whites could walk by and there was still that black back of the bus where…and being from the North, I was really outraged at the acceptance and the difference it was in the South. 1:29:04 However, it all seemed to be done quite amiably between both races, and there was not the animosity that it would have engendered up North, but it was very apparent. We went through Montgomery, Alabama where they still had the flags of the South up and you would have thought Jefferson [Davis] won the war. Interviewer: Now, once you went through your training there at Camp Rucker, what was your next assignment? �Actually at Camp Rucker we didn’t have any training. What we did was we gathered our equipment and our… 1:30:04 I can remember that we had our barracks bags laid out and our bedrolls and all our canteens and we were supplied with everything that we needed. And we also met the unit that we were going to go overseas with. That was the 313th Station Hospital. We did meet the officers there and learn a little more about the bonding together of a unit at this time. Interviewer: You just mentioned officers. Did you have a rank at this time? Oh I was brought into the Army as a second lieutenant and there I stayed for a long, long time because of the fact that when we did get overseas our promotions were frozen. 1:31:14 But I think most all of the nurses that came into the service came in as second lieutenants and probably the older ones, the ones that were in charge of you were made captain and the ones that were…or first lieutenants. Those were the ones that did the paperwork and kept the nurses in line. Interviewer: From there where did you move on to, because now you’re about to… where did you go overseas and how did you get there? 1:32:00 We were sent from Camp Rucker, Alabama to Camp Kilmer, New Jersey and from there we were sent overseas. We had our final inspections and our footlockers were banded and everything was stenciled and then we boarded the, quite a large ship, and it was called the Brazil it was. I was seasick, always seasick. I couldn’t believe that I could get seasick because I was always so healthy and so strong, but ships are not my forte. So I spent my whole ten days going overseas on the top deck because I found out that I was perfectly all right as long as I was out in that fresh air but perfectly terrible like a leaden head when I was down where I could hear the machinery and smell the oil that came from the ship. 1:33:15 Interviewer: So I take it this was not a luxury liner you went over on? �Well, I think all ships are terrible. I don’t think there’s any luxury liner that could ever get me to get on a ship that I did not have to be on. Interviewer: Thank goodness you finally arrive, and where did you arrive? We arrived, well, we went in convoy across the ...and they had a smoking lamp that they would put out when the skies got gray and dark. You could see the whole mass of ships that were in this convoy and we zig-zagged a little bit. 1:34:07 Of course, I thought all this was not really necessary but I guess it was at the time. I just didn’t realize the dangers, but we landed in Scotland and that was I think in December of 1943, somewhere along there. Interviewer: Okay, let’s hold off just for a moment here. You’re getting real close to touching your microphone so be careful of that. And can we check on …are you all right? Okay. Is everything okay? All right, good. So this is the first time you’ve arrived in a foreign country even though it’s an English speaking country. 1:35:03 What was your first reaction to…? In other words, you get there…Was this the first time you met Scottish people or British people? We arrived in Scotland I think in the middle of the night, so and we were in Class A uniforms which means that we had short skirts, fairly short for that time, and not much protection so we were freezing. We got on a train there. I met no Scottish people, and it was dark so we’d peer out the window to see what kind of, what we could see because of course we loved the idea of being in a foreign country and wanted to see and do and experience everything that there was to experience. 1:36:02 We got on this train and tried to sleep and went all the way down, all the way from the top of Scotland clear down to the bottom of England which was, we landed in North Devon is what we did. But this was a long, long trip. I can remember the one time that we did stop they had coffee with cream in it. I never drank coffee in my life before but it was �nice and hot, so that was my first experience drinking coffee. We stayed on this cold, cold train clear down to Devon and it was rainy in Devon too. 1:37:08 But England will always be my first love because I spent fifteen months there. It was a beautiful, beautiful country and lovely people. The wonderful thing that I think I learned about the English was their resilience, their ability to make do with little. They had large buses and they were very patient in queuing up for them. But the most, the thing that I treasure most was the fact that even the old people rode bicycles to save the gas. There was a lot of bicycle riding. 1:38:02 Interviewer: What were you doing during this fifteen months? I was at the 313th Station Hospital and we were in Barnstaple, North Devon, England. That’s just almost as far south as you can get, and it was beautiful country. But we set up our hospital unit there. We were quartered at first in a manor house in Fremington and we learned, of course, all the things about English living, that they had no central heating, and we had to learn to start our own fires. 1:39:01 Interviewer: I think people may not realize what a manor house is. This is a huge, almost castle-like structure with lots of rooms so they would be perfect for housing a whole group of people. Well, the manor only housed about the nurses first and then the officers afterwards. And it was a huge, lovely house. It had a ballroom, which we turned into our dining room, and it had tremendous…actually one of the things I remember most was the tub that they had there and it was a built-in and it was so deep that it was amazing. But it was a beautiful, beautiful place. 1:40:01 Polished wood. There might have even been a ghost there sometimes. But we had in the one large room where some of our nurses were they had put eight beds in this one room, eight cots, where we slept on cots. And then of course at that time the officers and the enlisted �persons were out in what they call Nissen huts, which were sort of prefabricated huts that were long and, I don’t know how they were made. Interviewer: Like a barracks maybe? Yeah, kind of like a barracks. And they had potbellied stoves in them. These were the ones that eventually the nurses got these and we had to keep our fuel going, and we only had so much fuel. 1:41:11 Interviewer: Well, you know, that leads to another question. The war is going on. Did you have any experience…I mean, I know they weren’t bombing you, but did you have any experience with perhaps the deprivations of the war or any experience that the war was going on? There were…we had many experiences about the deprivation that was going on in England because we were not allowed to have any milk or any eggs or any things that would be taking away from the British population. In fact, I learned to drink powdered milk because I loved milk and powdered eggs. Actually, the United States Army I think ate quite well. 1:42:08 And we all had bicycles too. We bought them so we could travel without using extra gas. And then of course, at that time we set up our operating room and our different wards and the hospital things that we did were for our own unit or, once in a while, we had the airplanes that flew over from the RAF and the Royal Canadian Air Force. 1:43:08 And they had an airfield that was directly across the river from where our unit was stationed, and I know that there were several times when they had crashes, were brought in to our surgery and we took care of them. Interviewer: So at this point you’re not treating war, direct war casualties. You’re dealing with accidents and the general kind of…I guess, who were treating and what were treating at this time, besides the RAF and the Canadians you’re talking about? �Well, we were treating mostly our own personnel and living in expectation of what was to come. 1:44:13 Rather than treating anybody we were set up and ready, but not really functioning as a war unit. Actually, it was before we had D-day and so…Although I didn’t realize, I figured I was in the war because I was over there, but I didn’t realize that our Americans were not yet in the war and I couldn’t understand why we were sort of stagnated and not doing what I thought I had been sent over for. 1:45:01 Interviewer: Did you have any opportunity to either go into London or any of those areas that the war could actually be viewed, could be seen? I did go many places while in England. London was one of them, that was one of the really scary times because they were having the buzz bombs that came over, these were the unmanned bombs that Hitler sent over and you could hear the noise from them and when the noise stopped then you had to look out because that’s when the bomb was going to drop. Interviewer: Why were you in London? I went up on a pass to see one of my nurse friends and I was so frightened when there was all these air raid sirens and it got so black out and I didn’t know where I was. 1:46:10 And we were going in the subway and when I got off and they said, some British person said, “Oh yes, this hospital is right in the next block.” So I went up to the hospital and I asked for the, not for the person that I was coming to see but somebody that had been back in my unit because I was really frightened. And my nurse friend who was based in London was so calm and so matter of fact and everybody was going into the subways to escape the bomb scare. But she stayed up there and we watched through the window and saw all these flares and it was lit up and you could see the fires and everything. 1:47:09 I know, afterwards, when I was trying to get back to, go back to my own station, I can remember there were all these hoses that were strung across and the �British people, not just the men but the women were all working industriously to put out the fires and it was a real revelation of how efficient these British were. I was impressed. 1:48:02 But I was glad I was not based in London. Interviewer: I can imagine it also was a real wake-up in terms of the devastation of war and the kind of enemy you were up against. You really realized how devastating it was, because there was also all the rubble and the buildings that were downed and the people that were injured. It brought war very, very close. Interviewer: So once you made it back to your base, where did you go from there? I think it was about June of forty…I can’t remember… 1:49:01 Interviewer: Don’t worry. That’s okay. But we were not functioning efficiently as a unit and so the nurses were sent out on temporary duty to other hospitals. So I was sent up to Exeter and Taunton to, I think it was the 101st General Hospital. And I always felt a little like if I was the outcast, you know, not really belonging because you learn to identify so completely with your own personnel and your unit and so to be sent to a strange place, it was hard to adapt to different areas. 1:50:01 But we were sent to this big general hospital and I can remember living in another, presumably, manor house or something in the attic. I can’t even remember what we did there. Interviewer: This isn’t where you were doing similar MASH-type of… No, this was earlier on. That was when we were in… Interviewer: Malvern? But when I was in this area where we were transferred then instead of being on temporary duty any more, we were assigned to another unit. This one was the 123rd Station Hospital. And this was when were sent up to Malvern, England. 1:51:03 That’s probably in the north of England, �and they had the fifty, I think it was the 55th or 53rd General Hospital there. And there is where is where I was in the surgeries where they did two surgeries. They had a, it was a standing, it was not tents. It was a standing unit. But they had actually two surgeries going on at the same time and I participated in that area. And it was almost like what you see on the MASH unit that Alan Alda portrays there. I did not like the original M*A*S*H because I thought it was not only exaggerated, that it was gross almost, but… 1:52:02 Interviewer: All right, so from there I understand you went to France. From Malvern we were sent over to Wales, and there we met a different set of officers and went from there to France. So we arrived in France, I think about in January or February of 19, what is it, 45, I think. Interviewer: Well this must have been exciting. Now you’re going from England, now you’re going to another foreign country. And France, of course, has a lot of mystique and romance about it. What was your reaction to arriving in France and where did you stay? I arrived in France, I think at Le Havre, and then we stayed at a monastery, I think it was, that had, I know it had the chapel and we stayed so that we could go to mass every morning if we wanted to. 1:53:20 Interviewer: So you were in the monastery? There was a chateau there as well? It was, I guess it was a chateau, but it had that chapel at the side. And we were all in a long wooden area or so with canvas cots and we managed to press our uniforms by putting them between the cot and our bed roll and so that’s how we pressed our clothes. And it was a place where we, I know we had our mess kits with the great big tubs that were out there and we wore fatigues all the time. 1:54:14 That was a blessing because there was mud everywhere. We got to �know the French people. In fact, I tried to learn a little bit of French. I never was very good at it though. Interviewer: So let’s say for example, you’re now going out to eat and of course you’ve got candlelight settings with plates and silverware… Huh? We did not have, although the mystique of France was there, we were not given the candlelight dinners and things. 1:55:01 What we did see was the long French bread that they had, but they didn’t even put it in wrappers. They carried it on the street just as is with no wrappers or anything. And the French family that I learned about was when I went on a temporary duty to Dieppe and they had an evacuation, a field hospital there. And this French sixteen year old boy came up and he said, “Oh don’t step off the sidewalk,” he says, “because there are bombs and mines on the side so you have to stay on the walks.” 1:56:07 So he offered to take me up to see a castle that was really just the ruins of a castle that was there, and then he invited me home to see his mother. Although she couldn’t speak English and I can’t speak French we managed to connect with sign language and smiles and whatever. I have kept him as a friend ever since and I still correspond with him, and his mother has since died but we did go back in 1978 and visited her. 1:57:00 She had the Caduceus emblem that I had sent her and she gave me a little pair of earrings that, I don’t wear earrings, but anyhow. It just was a beautiful friendship, and he was a diplomat in the European common market. In fact, when we went back to visit we ended up having to go through security to get to where he was. He’d also been a French paratrooper. Interviewer: So where did you go from there? Because we’re not in the Pacific yet, we’re still in Europe. �Oh yes, we went from that staging area which was where the chateau was, and from that area we went to Reims, which was where we were again on temporary duty to a large general hospital. 1:58:09 It was I believe the 178th General Hospital. There’s where I was on night duty where there were, I was in charge of five different wards at the same time and they were all miles apart or so I can remember travelling down those wooden staircases and going to each ward. There were many casualties, there. This was orthopedic wards that I was in there. Interviewer: So what were you actually doing? I mean, these are war casualties. Give us an idea of what you’re actually doing to treat these soldiers. 1:59:04 There was a doctor there, the surgeon was there? In all general hospitals there’s a doctor and there’s actually the regular set-up that you would see in one of our civilian hospitals with the doctors and the nurses and the many patients. But of course, instead of being just single rooms they were in large wards. And the patients were pretty wonderful because they still maintained most of their sense of humor and they were young so they had the resiliency and the hope of the future there. Interviewer: What nationality? Were these British, Canadians, Americans? These were Americans. 2:00:00 This was an American hospital, and this was, of course, after the Americans had gotten into the war because this is ’45, early ’45. Interviewer: So these were the casualties of the war around there and they would come to either field hospitals and then eventually be transferred to where you were? To the generals, yes. These were the soldiers that were not sufficiently injured to have to be sent back immediately to the states, but they convalesced either in these large general hospitals or so. Interviewer: Was there any indication of the actual war beyond the casualties? Were there any bombings or any kind of things going on like that while you were there? �I did not experience any of the front line bombings. 2:01:04 We were always back far enough so that I always felt quite safe. I don’t know how safe I was, but I felt safe. We had all of these, actually we had paratroopers and we had aviators both as patients and in the vicinity. We had gone from Reims to this little suburb, it was called Mourmelon and there was a whole group of hospital units there. They would transport us in to the 178th General in Reims. 2:02:03 Interviewer: So from Reims, where did you go from there? I understand there was a French cavalry officers’ barracks? That was at, the French cavalry barracks that we were situated in was a beautiful place. It was stone and had outside staircases. It might have not seemed beautiful but it was beautiful to us. We’d go up the spiral staircase into a large room that had little rooms off of it like spokes on a wheel. And this is where I met Bill, when I was stationed at this area and we were in between our own units staging. 2:03:08 The 123rd was staging to go to the Pacific and to Japan, so we were in between doing our own sewing and getting all of the equipment together for having a hospital unit that would function in Japan. In between doing that we were also doing duty at the 178th General, so we were scattered in what we had to do, so we did our own thing in between times and then they would have us over so we could do the actual patients. 2:04:04 Interviewer: There’s two parts to this. Number one is, were you actually informed formally that you were going overseas or did you volunteer to go overseas? Oh, when the war was over, V-E Day, Victory in Europe, they came around and they asked us whether we wanted to be sent back to the states or whether we would volunteer to go on to Japan. Well, my brother had been over in the South Pacific for all his years and I was anxious also to go so I volunteered to go on. 2:05:00 I figured, as long as…you see, as nurses we were in for the duration of the war. That meant until the end of the war, regardless. It’s not like today �where you can be in for a certain length of time and then you kind of have to re-up or so. But for us, we were in until it was all over and so either we went on or we stayed in Europe, and those that didn’t volunteer stayed in Europe. My best buddy did not volunteer to go on because her husband did not want her to, and so as it was she stayed in Europe and she took care of German prisoners of war and also some of the army personnel that was left there. 2:06:11 Interviewer: This is where it gets interesting, as this young, dashing paratrooper shows up in your life. How did that come about? I met Bill in quite an interesting way. I had a friend that had been like a big brother to me in the 506th parachute unit and he had been sent up to the front and I hadn’t heard from him for some time and he’d brought me back a camera and a Nazi flag and had just left them and gone on. I hadn’t seen him, so I was expecting to hear something of this paratrooper when I got called down to meet someone downstairs. 2:07:20 I was upstairs writing letters and I was being a very good girl because I had had two proposals and I couldn’t make up my mind who I really liked and so I was staying home and being really picky about not going out with anybody. And so I thought this must be from Joe Reed. And so I came down to the unit and there were three gallant paratroopers there, two that seemed a little older and then this one fairly young, harmless looking person. 2:08:01 And so we talked and I kept thinking, why isn’t he saying there’s a message from Joe Reed? And it didn’t come out. Finally, I discovered that the only reason they were here was because they were looking for dates for a dance that was that evening or the next evening, and so my two nurse friends were conferring whether they were going to go out. I said, “I’ll go out with them if I can have the harmless looking one.” So there’s how I met Bill. It turned out later that he had asked somebody earlier who’d just gotten married, she was quite an exotic looking beauty, and he’d asked if there was anyone that was like her. 2:09:09 I had �always been considered her little sister because I had the same complexion and looks more or less. I seen her too recently at our 501 reunion in Pennsylvania, and she still is a lovely, lovely woman. Interviewer: Once you met Bill, though, did you have a chance to spend time with him? Or were you shipped off to the Pacific? Give us an idea of what was going on during that period. I met Bill the day after the war ended in Europe. That was the ninth of May, and I was staging to go to the Pacific so I only saw him for nine days at Mourmelon before he left. 2:10:13 And I went from Mourmelon, which is near Reims, down to Marseilles, and there we were waiting for a ship to go to the Pacific. And incidentally we had a time where we spent on leave in the Riviera, not with Bill, with my girlfriend or so. So we got to experience a little of that luxury that you saw of France where we got really sunbaked in the Riviera. 2:11:06 Enough to, I can remember using the paddleboats that they had there, and we paddled out so far not thinking how dangerous it might have been, we went way out. And I’ve often thought later on in my life, I’ve wondered how I could ever have been so oblivious to the danger we were in, but anyhow that was my…And we saw Bob Hope while we were in the Marseilles area and the beautiful Notre Dame cathedral. Not the one that’s in Paris, but the one that’s down there, called Notre Dame de la Garde. 2:12:01 And learned a little bit about the French people there too. They had that, what is it, not the Guy Fawkes day, but the day for the French Revolution, I forget what it’s called. Mary Beth celebrates it all the time. Interviewer: So from there, you’re now being sent to the Pacific. Wasn’t there something to do with the Russian soldiers? Was this before or after? �Oh, while I was still in Mourmelon. I was sent to a ward, it was a neuro ward and it was kind of primitive, really. I know we had our sterile water made and heated on a fire and there was…we had Russian soldiers there and one of the taught me a few words of Russian or so. 2:13:07 That’s where we had POWs, prisoners of war, that were German and we also had some very sad cases on this neuro ward, and one of them was a Russian that I talked to again with sign language. Interviewer: So these were serious war injuries, then? This is legs and arms? This was head, head injuries too. Interviewer: All right, so now you receive, in France, I believe you get a promotion. Is that correct? I was finally promoted to first lieutenant. 2:14:02 Actually, it was on my birthday almost. I think it was the 30th of May or so, promoted to first lieutenant. They finally unfroze our promotions. Interviewer: Besides a pay raise, what did that actually incur? Did you have additional responsibilities or are you doing basically the same thing? Nothing. Same thing, it’s just like after you’ve worked so hard, they finally say, “Oh well, we’ll give you a little more title or so,” but it didn’t change what you were doing. Interviewer: Let’s talk now about going to the CBI, which is the China, Burma, Indian theater. We left France to go to the Pacific, the China, Burma, India theater in July of 1945, knowing full well that we were going to encounter the Japanese and really some horrendous problems. 2:15:21 Interviewer: Well, let’s elaborate on that. What do you mean by that? �Well, we realized that the Japanese were a little more fanatic, well the Germans were bad enough, but the Japanese were not going to be conquered. Interviewer: So you’d heard through the news reels about some of the atrocities? I’d heard not only through the news reels but my brother had spent, he was a liaison pilot with the field artillery, and he’d, his plane had crashed several times or so. 2:16:07 And he really had experiences that were horrendous and he had suffered malaria and jungle rot and hepatitis, because he was in from the very beginning when they didn’t have any of the safety precautions that were in place later in the war, so he really was a casualty in his health as far as the war was concerned. Interviewer: So without going into the details of the travel, you went by a ship, right, across. Where did you first arrive and what was your first reaction to coming to a totally different environment? 2:17:01 On our trip over to the Philippines, we landed at Manila, but actually before we got over there is when there was V-J Day while we were still on the ocean, and we didn’t know for sure whether they were going to send us back to the states or whether they were going to send us on. There was great elation that the war was over, but it was still in a state of flux. I know that there’s been an awful lot of discussion about whether the atomic bomb was something that should have been done but I do know that it certainly saved my life and the life of those thousands and thousands of soldiers that were on their way to death and destruction. 2:18:17 And if they hadn’t dropped the bomb the war would have gone on for, I think probably many years, many years longer. So although the decision wasn’t our individual person’s, either our decision or our liking probably, it certainly was the answer to our prayers. So when they debate now whether that was the proper thing to do I just know for us who were alive and who were going to it, it was the proper thing. �2:19:04 Bill has often said that he thought it would have been smart of them if they’d have bombed the holy mountain instead, but whatever. I’m glad they dropped it for our sakes. Interviewer: All right, so you’ve arrived now in the Philippines. The war is over. What are your options now? What are you supposed to be doing? There were still casualties in the Pacific area and we still had wards. We had, actually, there were tents. The soldiers that were still casualties were in tents and I can remember giving shots in the tents. 2:20:07 And I also was elevated to being a chief nurse in the surgery, although the surgeries were not as many. They had actually a very beautiful facility set up in this one area in San Fernando and we did get to, we did do surgeries and there was a, I can remember the season was monsoon season, so there was rains and rains and rains… Interviewer: I guess that’s a good thing to talk about. You’ve been, of course, in the weather of the United States where you grew up, then you went to several other places, then you went to England, you went to France. 2:21:06 What was your first impression of the atmosphere, the environment, the weather of the Pacific? The weather in the Pacific was, I can think of two things. It had beautiful sunrises, beautiful sunsets, and the rest of it was pretty blah. It was barren otherwise, but it the most beautiful painted sunsets and you could see the natives, the Filipinos in their conical hats fishing in there. We had actually right outside of our campsite, we were right on the ocean, and we had the wreck of a, I don’t know whether it was a sub or what it was, but it was right out there on our area. 2:22:19 Interviewer: So you’re treating pretty much the residual casualties of the end of the war and I imagine they’re just as serious as they were during the war. I mean, these are the �ones that were fighting, when they were hurt it was still war time. But was there any sense that there were less and less of them coming through over a period of time? You didn’t really notice that. The wards were full. But you had a sense that they were trying to evacuate as many people as possible because this was the end, presumably the end of the hostilities. 2:23:09 I do know that the Philippines, the Filipinos were still very, and whoever else was out there, was really hostile because they would not let the nurses leave this encampment without having an officer with an armed gun on him. What I usually did was make the officer give me the gun. I don’t think I’d have known how to use it but I liked to have the control of it. 2:24:01 But we did get to see several things in the Philippines. We saw the place where the treaty, the Japanese treaty either had been signed or they had met to consult on it, in these quarters. It was near Baguio. Baguio was the resort area of the Philippines and it was a gorgeous spot. Down where we were was like the arid, dry spot and up there in the hills was this beautiful area. And they had the nuns up there and they had the silver filigree necklaces and things that they made. It’s one of the beautiful things I remember about it. 2:25:00 Interviewer: So when did things, not when in terms of an exact date or something like that, but give us an idea of when things started to wind down and what were your orders at that point? Were you going to go back to the states? Were you going to go back to Europe? What were your options and what…were you ordered to go somewhere? We had the option of going on anyway to Japan to be part of the army of occupation or we could return to the states, and I thought, the war is over, I’m leaving. I’m not going on to Japan. My mother had suffered long enough. And my brother had been sent back to the states, so we were all eager to go home so that we could start our real lives again. Naturally, I did not volunteer to go on to Japan. 2:26:03 Some of my nurse friends did, but not me. �Interviewer: Well, during this period of time, were you corresponding with Bill? Was there any decision making involving him in this thing too or where were you at this stage in terms of your relationship? We had corresponded almost daily. Of course, there were a lot of letters that were not received, so you’d get them in batches, you know. In fact there was a number of letters that came after I got back to my home. But I think that I learned to love Bill through the letters, through understanding…if he had not been a good communicator I don’t think I would have learned how much he meant and what a strong and wonderful character, person he was if it had not been for the letters. 2:27:13 In fact, I have, I made a book called “So Long Lives This” out of all the letters that I wrote and he wrote. He kept his and I kept mine, so they intersperse through this book. It’s long, but it’s not been published because not only is it personal, it’s too long and too expensive to publish. Interviewer: Well, I will agree with you that he is a character, since I’ve known him. I’m very, very pleased that you’ve kept those. I think it’s very important that your family have that for the future. So you’ve made the decision. You’re coming back. What was the process, if you will, of getting out of the military? 2:28:04 Or did you return home still in the military? When I left the Philippines, I left as chief nurse of my 123rd unit, guarding all of these strays that had not previously left or were not going on to Japan and really not knowing what a chief nurse did. In fact, it wasn’t until I got back and read all the papers that the chief nurse had written where she told every place I’d been and how many inoculations I had that I realized that I was glad that I’d never been a chief nurse because it was the paperwork. In fact, I did have a wonderful chief nurse who I, her name was Mildred Earhart and she, I don’t know where she is �now, but I did see her several times after the war. 2:29:08 So anyhow, I took this group in three truckloads to Manila and there was devastation there, great devastation and dusty roads and rioting and things that, because we were kept on this isolated base, we had not seen. A lot more danger than I was aware of. Incidentally, we were not the last people to leave this encampment. There were still people there and I don’t know what happened to them. But anyhow, in November we were put on the marine jumper that jumped all the way through the water back. 2:30:07 Another ship that I don’t care to have. We came back and landed in Camp Anza, California which is somewhere near the Golden Gate, and we landed on Thanksgiving Day. From there, we were shipped back to the base nearest where we had enlisted or joined the Army and mine I think was in Des Moines or somewhere near, somewhere in Iowa. And we signed all the papers and were put on terminal leave. 2:31:05 They had these big, what do you call it, debriefing centers set up to handle the massive number of people that were leaving. And of course, we could be put in the reserve, and so we were put in the reserve in case anything else happened. Interviewer: Were you intending to stay in the military? No, no. I was only in the military for the duration. Interviewer: So once you were put into the reserve then, I assume you went back home at this point. I went back home and, actually found out that my mother had moved. 2:32:01 I didn’t know where they were, which was kind of an unhappy situation. I will say one thing, travelling back from California to Iowa, I was first amazed at the lights and the beauty of the states that, you know, everything had been dark in all these places and to find that life had gone on very comfortably. The other thing that I didn’t like was the fact that having spent enough time being �gone that the war was old news, that the civilian populace were not happy with the returning nurses and returning people, that, you know, from respect you got not very much. 2:33:21 So I was really unhappy with the way people treated the military. It goes from great love of the military while they’re working to great disrespect when they don’t need them anymore. Interviewer: Did you experience that when you went to a hospital to apply for a job or something and there was already people there? No, no. I’m talking about the general feeling as we rolled across the country in these troop trains. 2:34:06 And it wasn’t until we got into actually Iowa where you got a welcome or so. Interviewer: So it was the hometown crowd that really gave you the welcome back. Yeah, more or less. But I mean, it just seemed like a very cold atmosphere, and you realized how much less the civilian population had had to suffer and how little they appreciated it. Interviewer: So when you arrived home, you’re of course, thank goodness, you’re greeted by your mother. Well, you found the house? I guess that’s the first thing, how’d you find the house? Actually, I phoned and they said, “Oh, she isn’t here anymore.” And she hadn’t a phone where she moved because there was a priority and you had to have a real reason to have a phone or else you couldn’t get one. 2:35:07 That’s another thing, the neighbors that, she was not very nice about letting her come to the phone. So a lot of things ticked me off when I got back. I guess I was ready to be ticked off. Interviewer: So how did you eventually find your mom? Well, I got her on the phone finally, on the neighbor’s phone, and found out the address and things, but all of these things had happened while the letters were not going back and forth, so I didn’t know that they’d bought a house and I didn’t know where I lived anymore. And she �didn’t know because the first thing she said to me was, “Who is Bill?” She said that I was fickle because I couldn’t make up my mind between which person I was going to marry, and she said, “Don’t tell me any more about your romances.” 2:36:11 And so I didn’t tell her. Interviewer: So your brother shows up too? Was he there? Yes, my brother was in hospitals from the time that he got back because the last times that he had been in the Pacific when they were having those last flights and he would take the flight of the person that was supposed to take it so that the guy wouldn’t die because he felt like he would make it back better than they. 2:37:02 In the end they had to lift him up to get him in the plane. Once he was in the plane he was fine, but his legs would get paralyzed from…so he had… Interviewer: So he was in the hospital, so you went to visit him in the hospital there … or he already got home? No, he was out by that time. And he demobilized and then he went back in again. Interviewer: Let’s cover now how Bill comes into this story again. Did he come to visit you there or did you go to visit him or what happened next? Well, we both arrived on different sides of the continent on Thanksgiving Day, and there was a letter for me when I came back that my mother had. 2:38:08 I guess he must have called or so because he called me on the telephone and then he came up to visit his father who was also an Air Force colonel in Grand Island, Nebraska which is next door neighbor to where Sioux City is. And so he’d visit his father on the weekend and then he’d come up to see me. Interviewer: So is that when he proposed? He proposed on Christmas Eve of 1945. Interviewer: And you said? 2:39:00 �What he said, and he still says he didn’t say it, but he said, “I take it for granted you’ll marry me,” and of course I did. That’s when we got engaged. Interviewer: So you got married and tell us just a brief… I got married and I’ve had ten children and now we have thirty seven grandchildren and four great-grandkids and we’ve had a wonderful life. Interviewer: That’s wonderful. One last question, and I ask this of everyone that I interview. What do you feel you accomplished during that period of time, that period of time that you went over there, went into danger? 2:40:01 What effect did that have on the rest of your life in terms of the person you became? Some people talk about how they grew up very quickly while they were out there, but what effect did the wartime experience have on you as a person for the rest of your life? The effect that the war had on me is it did mature me. I think I got more self confidence in myself and a broader view of people. More or less, it made me an adult and I could also see through my own eyes rather than through my mother’s eyes or through my childish ideas. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeftonE0737V Title A name given to the resource Sefton, Elizabeth (Interview transcript and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sefton, Elizabeth Description An account of the resource Beth Sefton was an Army nurse during World War II. She volunteered for duty in 1942 and continued to serve until after VJ Day. She served in England, France, and the China Burma India Theatre working with surgeons and American, German, Russian and English casualties. She left the service as the Head Nurse and a 1st Lieutenant in the Army. Beth met her husband Bill while serving in the war and came home to marry him. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army. Women's Army Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/708c52f62a0f4273633b405299ef5c20.mp4 32f9943c6fb5d3f394e4eb9220d22e37 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0c4ac5150b2112f36d0f21bc64061935.pdf 548654c5b7c1b9cf041041dc9f47dc36 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Ken Scott (01:25:32) (00:01) Background Information • • • Ken was born in Alma, MI in 1937 His parents were teachers He went to Central Michigan University in 1955 and graduated in 1960 (01:06) Training • • • ROTC training was mandatory for the first 2 years of collage Ken went to Fort Eustis, VA as an obligated volunteer for 2 years after college His first duty was to go to Korea (06:50) Deployment • • • • • • • • • • Ken was sent to Camp Casey, Korea with the 7th infantry 17th transportation battalion and was assigned to the C Company, an armored carrier company He got on a 707 jet and flew from San Francisco to Hawaii, Wake Island, Japan, and then landed in Korea Korea smelt bad because of the open sewers and there were bullet holes in buildings Ken moved to Camp Casey and his duties were to do special assignment jobs and be the platoon leader They were some of the first troops to get the M-113 armored personnel carrier Their job was to support the battle groups Ken was there in from 1961 through 1962 The 1st Cavalry and the 7th Infantry divisions were still in Korea He was extended for 90 more days because of the assassination of JFK Ken was the company commander of C company (16:35) After Korea • • • • • • Ken went to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri He was put in charge of the motor pool as lieutenant Ken was then sent to Fort Carson, CO He was part of the 4th Squadron, 12th Cavalry Regiment in the 5th Mechanized Division Ken made senior first lieutenant They set up loading plans at Fort Carson from 1962 until 1964 �(18:40) Germany • • • • • • • Ken made captain and was sent to Mannheim, Germany with the 28th transportation battalion of the 37th transportation group He commanded a heavy truck company that carried tanks They moved tanks from the Nancy depot in France to the Mainz depot in Germany when Charles De Gaulle kicked the US out of France The GIs put French wine and bread in the tanks’ gun barrels so they could smuggle them through the border check The Germans didn’t want much truck traffic on the Autobahn so they had to get special permission to drive on it Ken was in charge of the company for a year In the fall of 1965 they pulled out of Germany (22:30) Training for Vietnam Ken was sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky He activated the 592nd transportation company They were at Fort Campbell from June 19, 1966 until March of 1967 Ken received new troops from South Carolina and found out that most of them were from New York City and didn’t know how to drive • They flew to Oakland, CA and boarded a ship to Vietnam • • • • (25:40) Vietnam • • • • • • • • • • • • • After 17 days at sea they landed at Okinawa, Japan There were 10 truck companies; Ken’s company had 188 men They went to Vung Tau and then to Cam Ranh Bay Cam Ranh was a very deep port Ken got on a LCU and went to shore He had 30 days to get the camp ready for the trucks that were coming in They built floors for the tents and sand bagged around the whole area for wind protection When they went out in a convoy they would occasionally get shot at by snipers Their camp was near a Vietnamese village and some of the village people worked in their camp There were a lot of geckoes around and some of the soldiers would feed them On one convoy they went almost all the way to Cambodia Most of the time they stayed on the beach Cam Ranh Bay was secured so they didn’t have any resistance at their camp �• • They never had to put armor plating on their trucks There wasn’t any support for the convoy (47:12) Back to the US • • • • • Ken went to Fort Riley, KS; the 9th and 1st divisions had gone to Vietnam He went to work with the 23rd forward air support command Ken made battalion commander and then major They had to get the camp ready for the ROTC summer camp Then he was sent to Fort Eustis, VA for an advanced course (48:50) Saigon • Ken was sent to Saigon in 1969 and 1970 • He was assigned to be a vessel movements officer and went to work for the first lieutenant • In Long Binh, a city east of Saigon, he had to move the 48th transport truck division to the 4th command • Ken became the highway operations commander • He was playing volleyball and injured his knee, so he had to go to Japan for surgery • Ken was at Camp Drake, Japan for 10 days after his surgery • He got sent to Valley Forge, PA for rehabilitation • His tour wasn’t completed in Vietnam and he wanted to go back to finish it • Ken went back to his unit and finished his tour • They sent him to Fort Eustis to work with a new heavy truck • He went to Japan with his family for 3 years and got to visit Hong Kong and Korea (58:24) Teaching • • • • • • • • • • Ken moved to Leavenworth, KS He then became a staff officer in Hawaii While in Hawaii he received his masters degree from Central Michigan University In 1980 he went to Western Illinois University to become their professor of Military Science His son went through the ROTC program and then went into the Army for 5 years Ken’s son and daughter both graduated from WIU He moved a total of 26 times while he was in the Military Ken got a job at Fort Sheridan, IL He put in for retirement and bought a house in Grand Rapids, MI Ken taught at Union and Creston for 8 years in Grand Rapids �• • • • • He spent 14 years in the ROTC program In 1999 he retired Ken is now a member of the VFW, the American Legion, the Vietnam Veterans Association, and the Army Navy Club of Grand Rapids Ken thinks the Army has changed a lot recently mostly because of technology In 1967 he was told by the head of graduate programs at Central Michigan University that he was not welcome on campus because he was in the Vietnam War �BIOGRAPHY KENNETH G. SCOTT LIEUTENANT COLONEL, UNITED STATES ARMY, RETIRED Born in Michigan in 1937, Colonel Scott graduated from Sheridan Rural Agricultural High School in 1955. He attended Central Michigan University where he enrolled in the Senior ROTC Program. He graduated in 1960 with a B.S. Degree and was commissioned a Second Lieutenant. Colonel Scott earned a M.A. Degree in Management from Central Michigan University in 1978. He attended the Transportation Officer Basic (1961) , Advanced (1969), courses and the United States Army Command and General Staff (1977). He has served stateside at Fort Eustis, Virginia, Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri; Fort Carson , Colorado; Fort Riley, Kansas; Fort Leavenworth, Kansas; Fort Campbell, Kentucky; and Fort Sheridan, Illinois. His overseas assignments include tours in Korea, Germany, Vietnam (2), Japan and Hawaii. Command assignments were in Korea as a Company commander of an Armored Carrier Company with the 7th Infantry Division, company Commander of a Heavy Truck Company in Germany, Company Commander of a Light Truck Company in Vietnam, and Battalion commander of a Transportation Battalion at Fort Riley, Kansas. Major Staff Assignments were S-3 Truck Transportation Battalion in Germany and Vietnam ; Highway Operations Officer Transportation Group in Vietnam; Project Officer Combat Development command; Staff Transportation Officer G-4 US Army Japan; Chief Transportation, Energy and Troop Support Division DCSLOG ,WESTCOM Hawaii; Director Industrial Operations, Fort Sheridan, Illinois. In 1980, he became the Professor of Military Science at Northern Illinois University. Colonel Scott retired from the United States Army in October 1985, from Fort Sheridan, Illinois, where he was the Director of Logistics . He joined the Grand Rapids Public Schools Junior ROTC Department as an instructor in 1985. He assumed the position of Facilitator of Army Instruction in August 1991. He retired from the Grand Rapids Public Schools on 31 July 1999. Decorations awarded to Colonel Scott include the Bronze Star Medal (1 OLC), Meritorious Service Medal (1 OLC), Army commendation Medal (2 OLC), Meritorious Unit Commendation (1 OLC), National Defense Service Medal, Republic of Korea Presidential Unit citation , Vietnam Service Medal, Vietnam Campaign Medal with 60 Device, Vietnam Cross of Gallantry with Palm, Army Service Ribbon , and Overseas service Ribbon with numeral 3 , Korea Defense Service Medal. He also was awarded the Outstanding Civilian Service Medal for his JROTC Service. Colonel Scott was inducted into the Central Michigan �University ROTC Hall of Fame in February 2000. Colonel Scott is a life member of The Military Officers Association of America , The Veterans of Foreign Wars , The American Legion And the Vietnam Veterans of America. He is also a member of the Army and Navy Club of Grand Rapids and Kiwanis Club of Grand Rapids North . Colonel Scott is married to the former Carol F. Jenks of Sheridan, Michigan . They have a son , Mark O. Scott who has q·children . He is an Emergency Room Doctor in Kansas City , Mo. They also have a daughter, Laura M. Hamacher, who is married to an attorney , has two children. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ScottK Title A name given to the resource Scott, Ken (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Scott, Ken Description An account of the resource Ken Scott was born in Alma, Michigan in 1937. Ken graduated from Central Michigan University in 1960 and then went into the Army. His first duty was in Korea with the 7th infantry 17th transportation battalion as their platoon leader. In 1962 he came back to the US and then was sent to Germany from 1962 to 1964 where he commanded a heavy truck company. After Germany he activated a transportation company and went with them to Vietnam in March of 1967. He did one tour in Vietnam and then after being home for a short while did another. Ken then went to work as a professor of Military science working in Illinois and then Grand Rapids, Michigan until he retired in 1999. Personal account of military service is appended to interview outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f623e9afbf90aecd7dd27044a813b380.mp4 6debabf88394325e029d81bef2767d6d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9636e672851f2982e3519aba2526833a.pdf 180fb1696b37008008b3bc22ccaa1af7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Joseph Scott Vietnam War Interview Length: (00:58:46:00) Training / National Guard (00:00:42:00)  When Scott first joined the military, he joined the Michigan National Guard and he was still a junior in high school (00:00:42:00) o Scott’s father thought it would be a good idea for Scott to join the National Guard as a way to get out of the draft (00:00:53:00)  The week after Scott’s graduation from high school, he began the active-duty requirement for his enlistment, which was supposed to last six months and include both basic training and Advanced Infantry Training (AIT) (00:01:04:00) o Once Scott began his active-duty portion, he took a train ride to Fort Jackson, Mississippi (00:01:23:00) o By the time Scott arrived at Fort Jackson, it was around four o’clock in the morning and he received his first taste of being in the military when he and the other recruits were ordered to get off the train and stand in a line (00:01:42:00) o Once off the train, Scott and the other recruits were marched onto buses, which then took them into Fort Jackson (00:01:55:00)  The recruits were allowed a couple of hours rest before being woken to receive their haircuts and uniforms (00:02:05:00)  Soon after, the recruits were split up to the specific bases where they would go through training; Scott ended up going to Fort Gordon, Georgia for his basic training (00:02:22:00) o Scott arrived at Fort Gordon in the middle of summer and during the summer of 1965, it was rather hot (00:02:32:00)  Scott and the other recruits had to line up every morning before breakfast for physical training, which consisted of calisthenics and a run, which was originally only a mile long but soon increased in length, eventually topping out at fourteen miles per day (00:02:43:00)  After the physical training, the recruits had breakfast, returned to their barracks, and went to the training sessions for the day, which ranged anywhere from firing weapons to marching to learning the do’s and don’ts of military life (00:03:12:00) o The training at Fort Gordon lasted for eight weeks, after which Scott traveled to Fort Ord, California (00:03:52:00)  When he first went to Fort Ord, Scott flew into San Francisco following a thirty-day leave and took a bus down to Fort Ord, which was situated on the Monterey Peninsula (00:04:11:00)  Fort Ord looked nothing like a traditional military facility; in Scott’s opinion, it was the nicest military facility he ever served at (00:04:20:00)  It was at Fort Ord that Scott and the other recruits learned about specific military tactics, as well as continued physical training (00:04:34:00) �  During their final physical proficiency test, Scott remembers that he and the other recruits had to get past a number of obstacles, including monkey bars and doing the low-crawl, all of which had to be done in a certain amount of time (00:04:46:00) o As well, the men also had to run a mile on a track that had been built on the side of a hill (00:05:12:00) o After he completed the AIT at Fort Ord, Scott was released from active-duty to join the Michigan National Guard (00:05:36:00) When Scott first joined his National Guard unit after training, he only had to go to the monthly meetings (00:05:49:00) o At the time, Scott’s National Guard was not a “ready reactive unit”, which meant they were not in the queue for deployment to Vietnam and did not have the most up-to-date and modern equipment (00:05:51:00)  Nevertheless, Scott and the other men in the unit still had to “play soldier”, which involved going to Camp Grayling to act as “aggressor forces” and train against those National Guard units who had been activated for deployment to Vietnam (00:06:03:00)  Scott remembers that one time, he ended up being captured; however, the soldiers who captured him and some of the other soldiers in his unit were not paying too much attention to them, so Scott hopped into the driver’s seat of the deuce-and-a-half truck they were in and took off down the road (00:06:32:00)  Another time, Scott and the other soldiers had regrouped and were told to do an assault during the night (00:07:02:00) o Scott and the soldiers were supposed to wait for the other unit to come through the area but ended up falling asleep and the other unit went right by the men (00:07:17:00) o In the morning, the men heard gunshots coming towards them, so they got up and one of the men in Scott’s squad made an improvised Molotov cocktail, which he then threw at the tank; as the tank burned, the men ran in the other direction, straight into the “enemy” unit that had snuck through during the night (00:07:34:00) o Even though they ran straight into the other unit, Scott and the other soldiers in his unit managed to capture all the soldiers in the other unit (00:08:01:00) o At the time, Scott had a job working in Grand Haven and was taking classes at the local community college (00:08:12:00)  However, it all seemed sort of a drag for Scott, so he thought about going onto active duty, if for nothing else than to receive the GI Bill; initially, Scott’s enlistment in the National Guard was supposed to last for six years, which was not too bad (00:08:25:00) o Nevertheless, Scott eventually made the decision to go onto active-duty in the regular Army (00:08:54:00)  Scott remembers that when he went to the local recruiting office to go in the regular Army, he had a couple of choices about what his job in the �    Army would be; of the choices, Scott remembers two specifically: microwave technician and aircraft engine repairman (00:08:57:00)  Although Scott had already been trained as an infantryman, he did not want to go into that (00:09:30:00)  Eventually, Scott chose aircraft engine repair, which was what he had scored highest in for his aptitude tests (00:09:34:00) Within a matter of weeks, Scott was off to Fort Knox, Kentucky and then on to Fort Eustis, Virginia for training (00:09:45:00) o Initially, Scott was “put back into the system”; he received his haircut and uniforms (00:09:56:00) o The reasons why Scott decided to go onto active duty were equal parts getting money to pay for his education and curiosity about what was happening in Vietnam (00:10:05:00) Prior to actually doing so, Scott had psychologically prepared himself to deploy to Vietnam; he had signed the paperwork and whatever came afterwards, he was going to accept it (00:10:25:00) o Scott’s first recollection of hearing about the Vietnam War was in 1963; although the nightly news occasionally showed videos of anti-war protestors, the coverage of the war had not yet grown to what it would eventually be (00:11:01:00)  In 1964, Scott recalls an incident happening in Vietnam where several Americans were killed and it was after that incident that Scott remembers actual American combat units being sent to Vietnam (00:11:37:00)  For the most part, Scott did not pay too much attention to news about Vietnam but he still knew about the conflict (00:12:02:00) o Scott’s uncle had died fighting in Korea during the Korean War and that hung in the back of his mind; in a way, Scott believed he should serve in the active duty to “bring back” the Scott family name (00:12:15:00)  Both Scott’s father and grandfather served in the Army, so there was a tradition of military service within Scott’s family (00:12:44:00) When Scott arrived at Fort Eustis, he went through all the training for aircraft engine repair, after which he and the other soldiers received their assignments, with Scott’s being to deploy to Vietnam (00:13:03:00) o When Scott was at Fort Knox, he was asked point-blank where he wanted to serve and he said “Vietnam” (00:13:23:00)  When the officer instead offered Scott an assignment in Belgium, Scott declined and said he wanted to deploy to Vietnam, which surprised the officer (00:13:28:00)  The officer tried to convince Scott to take the assignment in Belgium because Scott had relatives living in Belgium at the time, which would have been good PR for the Army (00:13:41:00) There was about a year-and-a-half between when Scott finished his National Guard training at Fort Ord and began his active-duty enlistment (00:14:06:00) o During that time, Scott was working and attempting to take classes; however, working twelve hours a day and trying to take even a single class was a tough proposition (00:14:23:00) �   Scott was working in the shipping department of a company, crating up refrigeration units for the PXs (Post Exchanges) on military bases in Vietnam; however, when Scott got over to Vietnam, he saw that apart from being used in the PXs, those refrigeration units were being used to store dead bodies for Graves Registration (00:14:33:00) After he training finished at Fort Eustis, Scott was told to report to Fort Lewis, Washington en-route to Vietnam (00:15:16:00) o After leaving Fort Lewis, Scott first flew to Fairbanks, Alaska, then to Tokyo, Japan and finally to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam (00:15:33:00)  Scott liked his brief stay in Tokyo so much that he ended up going back there later on an R&R (Rest and Recuperation) (00:15:51:00)  The flight(s) over to Vietnam were aboard a jetliner owned by an airliner named Braniff; Scott remembers the airliner’s name because they had chosen the oddest color to paint their jetliners, a “baby poop yellow” (00:16:03:00) o The flight landed at Cam Ranh Bay in the early morning hours and Scott remembers walking up to the doorway and feeling a huge blast of heat; to Scott, it was like walking next to a blast furnace (00:16:53:00) o Once they were off the jetliner, Scott and the other soldiers went through processing, updating their paperwork and checking their shot records; if someone lost their shot records, they had to go through all the shots again (00:17:10:00)  Once the soldiers were through processing, they received a small book that gave a brief history of Vietnam and information about the various locations the soldiers would be assigned to (00:17:35:00)  Scott had always been raised to treat people how he wanted to be treated, so he became friends with several Vietnamese who worked on the base where he was stationed (00:17:58:00) o Cam Ranh Bay was only a temporary stop for Scott to just go through processing and eventually, he and the other soldiers were broken down into battalions; once in battalions, the men were assigned to companies (00:18:25:00)  Scott ended up being assigned 34th Battalion, 14th Transportation Division, which was headquartered in the city of Nha Trang (00:18:44:00)  Once in Nha Trang, Scott was informed that he would be joining a unit stationed in Qui Nhơn, which meant he would either joined the 540th Transportation Company or the 79th Transportation Company; Scott ended up joined the 540th Transportation (00:18:56:00)  Apart from aircraft maintenance, the 540th also did General Support, which meant they could do anything up to completely rebuilding a destroyed aircraft (00:19:22:00) Scott was with the 540th Transportation for about a month before he was assigned to airfield security; the security force for the airfield where the company was stationed drew soldiers from all the units stationed on the airfield (00:19:34:00) o Scott and the other soldiers had always been taught that above all else, they were infantrymen; it did not matter if their assignment was to be a cook, or mechanic, or something else, they were infantrymen first (00:19:59:00) � o Although Scott did not want to be a spit-and-shine soldier, he would still keep his brass polished and his shoes shined in attempts to get out of having to go on guard duty for the night (00:20:16:00)  However, there were other soldiers in the security force who would go above and beyond, polishing their shoes until they could see their face in the reflection (00:20:37:00)  When the commander of the security force asked why Scott did not shine his shoes and do all the extra stuff, Scott explained that if something happened, he wanted to be out there (00:20:45:00) The area around Qui Nhơn was oddly shaped; it started out wide and then narrowed down into a peninsula into the South China Sea, with the airfield built near the base of the peninsula (00:21:19:00) o Beyond the airfield was a line of what Scott labeled as hills, although others labeled them as mountains (00:21:40:00) o In between the hills was what the soldiers had labeled “the Valley”, which was where the majority of the fighting in the area took place; the Valley was about three miles away from the airfield (00:21:55:00) o The Vietnamese people living in the area felt more secure near the American forces, so they built their houses right up to the security fences for the airfield (00:22:19:00)  Although having the houses close to the airfield made the Vietnamese feel safe, it did not allow for a killing zone for the security force (00:22:29:00)  One end of the airfield’s runway jutted up to the South China Sea with a road going around it while the other end was surrounded by the tin shanties and houses of the Vietnamese civilians (00:22:39:00)  One time, a C-130 transport coming in for a landing lost its brakes, slid off the end of the runway, and destroyed all of the shanties and houses built there (00:22:54:00)  The Vietnamese had a small bicycle-like device called a cyclo that they would use as a quasi-taxi and once, when Scott was assigned to a guard tower near the South China Sea, a cyclo was going past with a GI sitting inside (00:23:17:00)  A C-130 was reviving up for a takeover on the runway, so the GI quickly got out before the cyclo was blown down the road; the Vietnamese pedaling the cyclo never let go and went tumbling right along with it down the road (00:23:28:00) o Stationed in an area next to the airfield was a South Korean military unit (00:23:51:00) o Eventually, Scott was assigned to work in the guard tower for his company area, although he was still considered part of the airfield security force (00:24:14:00)  Around Christmas, a couple of Scott’s friends in the company, who knew he had been assigned to the guard tower, brought him dinner (00:24:22:00) o Scott trusted the local Vietnamese who he interacted with (00:24:41:00) �   However, there was one younger Vietnamese living in the area and the soldiers could tell that he was Viet Cong, just by reading his mannerism and the way he acted (00:24:47:00)  One night, when Scott was again assigned to the guard tower, he saw Vietnamese with rifles strapped on their backs riding bicycles out in the open and naturally assumed they were Viet Cong (00:25:21:00)  Scott called into the security force to report what he had seen and the ask if he had permission to fire on them; however, he was told not to fire until he was fired upon (00:25:39:00) o Although Scott acknowledged the order, he did not feel comfortable just letting what might have been Viet Cong just slip away because he knew they were going to cause some damage somewhere (00:25:57:00)  There was a detachment of U.S. Navy personnel also stationed on the airfield and the Viet Cong Scott had seen ended up attacking the area where Navy personnel were located (00:26:09:00) Once Scott completed his first assignment with airfield security, he was sent back to his original company (00:26:34:00) o At the time Scott rejoined it, the company had a large backlog of aircraft that either needed to be repaired or rebuilt (00:26:49:00)  In the cases where an aircraft was too badly damaged for the men to repair, they sent it back to Oakland, California for repair (00:26:55:00)  At the time, there was a “lull” in the fighting and the soldiers were rebuilding aircraft just so they would have something to do (00:27:03:00) o When Scott first joined his company in Vietnam, the company was working with old piston-driven helicopters; however, those were being phased out and replaced with newer helicopters, the ubiquitous Huey (00:27:15:00) o Apart from repairing and rebuilding aircraft, there was also a facility set up on the airfield to test repaired and rebuilt aircraft engines (00:27:32:00) o One day, after Scott had returned to the company, he was working during the second shift when all of a sudden, he and the other soldiers heard gunfire hitting the side of their hanger (00:27:39:00) o When Scott first arrived in Qui Nhơn, the company’s power came from a generator set-up in the company area (00:27:59:00)  However, the Viet Cong eventually snuck into the company area, threw a satchel charge under the generator, destroying the generator and knocking out the company’s power (00:28:07:00)  A couple of months later, the Navy sailed a ship into Qui Nhơn harbor and parked it next to the airfield; from the ship, the personnel on the airfield were able to draw a steady supply of power (00:28:13:00)  However, every once in a while, the Viet Cong would destroy the power lines leading from the ship to the airfield (00:28:39:00) In Scott’s opinion, if he or someone else did not have at least a little bit of fear in them, they were going to do something stupid; that was something his father had told him and it was something Scott followed for his entire tour (00:29:06:00) o Usually, Scott would write two letters a week to his parents (00:29:29:00) � At one point, Scott was sent to Tân Sơn Nhứt Air Base near Saigon gone to go through a training program, both as a refresher course and to update him on any new techniques that had been developed (00:29:43:00) o The first day Scott was at Tân Sơn Nhứt, the base came under the first major enemy mortar and rocket attack Scott had ever been in; according to what Scott heard later, the enemy launched one hundred and seventy-two rockets that night alone (00:30:21:00) o Tân Sơn Nhứt was just a stop-over for Scott; the actual school was located in a town named Vũng Tàu, which was supposedly a safe area manned by Australian and American soldiers (00:31:17:00)  The school at Vũng Tàu was a training facility for all Army aircraft personnel (00:31:31:00)  While Scott was waiting at Tân Sơn Nhứt for a helicopter to take him to Vũng Tàu, the rocket attack happened; as soon as the attack happened, Scott woke up, grabbed a corner of the mattress he had been sleeping on, and rolled onto the floor (00:31:41:00)  A lieutenant who was sleeping nearby asked what Scott was doing and Scott said if there was debris, it would have to go through that mattress first; the lieutenant then did the same thing (00:32:09:00) o The day after the enemy mortar and rocket attack, Scott and the other personnel could see where the incoming rounds had hit; luckily, nothing hit the building where Scott was sleeping, although they were close (00:32:21:00) o The whole time Scott was in the safe area at Vũng Tàu, he could not sleep because he was so used to a commotion happening during the night, such as the enemy sending up flares (00:32:49:00)  Scott finished the training at Vũng Tàu, returned to Qui Nhơn, and slept like a baby that first night (00:33:01:00) Tet Offensive / Misc. Stories (00:33:23:00)  By February 1968, Scott and the other personnel on the airfield had heard whispers about an offensive during the upcoming Tet holiday; although the airfield had already gone through one Tet offensive, it had not been too bad (00:33:23:00) o Tet was the start of the Vietnamese New Year’s celebration and during the first offensive, although the area around the airfield was hit, it was not bad and most of the fighting was confined to the Valley (00:33:37:00) o According to what the men had been hearing, the Tet offensive in 1968 was supposed to begin February 1st; however, Scott did not believe that and told a friend that he (Scott) thought the Viet Cong were going to attack them on February 22nd at two o’clock in the morning (00:34:01:00)  Just as Scott somehow predicted, the Viet Cong ended up attacking the airfield on February 22nd at two o’clock in the morning (00:34:17:00) o Once the attack on February 22nd happened, “all hell broke loose”; apart from lobbing mortar and rocket rounds onto the airfield, the Viet Cong were also trying to get through the various gates around the airfield, although the personnel manning the gates managed to stop them (00:34:20:00) � When the gates closed at night, the personnel defending the gates would pull spools of concertina razor wire across the entrance (00:35:17:00)  The security force for the airfield was unable to booby-trap outside the perimeter fence because the Vietnamese housing butted directly up to the fence (00:36:02:00)  Whenever a soldier was assigned to tower guard duty, he was given three flares; one flare was illumination, one flare was red to signal the tower was under attack, and one flare was green, although Scott cannot remember what it signaled (00:36:34:00)  When the Tet offensive began, one of the men in the security force was in a guard tower built on an area where the airfield’s perimeter suddenly jutted out and that was surrounded on three sides by Vietnamese houses (00:36:57:00) o As the Vietnamese started coming through the houses, the man in the tower tried to set off one of his flares; when one of the flares finally did go off, it nearly took the man’s helmet off, shot through the guard tower and floated into the airfield (00:37:08:00) o The man in the guard tower was lucky that there was a reactionary force that was able to come in and give him support (00:37:25:00) o By the time the Tet offensive began, Scott was back on guard duty, although he was on the other side of the airfield from where the incident with the flare occurred (00:37:35:00)  When Scott was on guard duty, officers would occasionally come by to check and make sure Scott and the other guards were alert (00:37:54:00)  Once, one of the officers making the rounds was wearing an Army raincoat; however, the way the lights were set up and the color of the raincoat made it hard to see the officer (00:38:01:00)  Scott “captured” the officer and held him until the sergeant-of-theguard came out to verify that who the officer was; because the officer was not wearing any symbols of his rank, Scott was within his right to hold the officer (00:38:28:00) o In the end, the airfield ended up being under siege for four days during the Tet Offensive (00:39:52:00)  The personnel on the airfield were told to hold the airfield for those four days and they would then be relieved by soldiers from the 1st Cavalry Division (00:39:56:00)  For the most part, the personnel were taking enemy fire and were not sending much back (00:40:11:00)  If the 1st Cavalry had not shown up, there was a ready-reactionary force on the airfield that was going to go into the town of Qui Nhơn itself and clear the town out house-to-house (00:40:24:00)  However, the soldiers in the ready-reactionary force had not been trained in fighting house-to-house and the houses in Qui Nhơn �     were especially treacherous because there were so many different nooks and crannies (00:40:38:00)  Scott was the only soldier on the ready-reactionary force who had any sort of infantry training; although all the personnel had gone through basic training, Scott was the only one who had gone through advanced infantry training (00:41:01:00)  Nevertheless, the 1st Cavalry did come in after four days and cleared the town out (00:41:15:00)  During the siege was the first time the personnel on the airfield had to eat C-Rations because the airfield’s cooks had been re-assigned to help guard the perimeter (00:41:28:00)  At one point during the siege, Scott was located in a bunker that took a direct hit from an enemy mortar round (00:41:38:00)  The “bunker” consisted of a metal shipping containers topped with three or four layers of sandbags and surrounded by another layer of sandbags; occasionally, two shipping containers were placed sideby-side to make the bunker bigger (00:41:53:00)  To this day, the low-end of Scott’s hearing is not normal as a result of the concussion from when mortar round impacted (00:42:25:00)  None of the soldiers in the bunker were wounded, although if the bunker had been hit by multiple mortar rounds, it might have been a different story (00:42:38:00) The personnel on the airfield had Mama-sans who would come onto the airfield to do the men’s laundry, with the men paying them each week; as well, there was also Vietnamese kitchen-help and carpenters who worked on the base (00:43:02:00) o One day, Scott came out of his hooch and saw one of the Vietnamese workers counting off steps (00:43:25:00)  Scott told his platoon sergeant what he had seen and when the Vietnamese worker left for the day, they stopped him at the gate and found he had marked down the distances for everything on the airfield (00:43:46:00) Scott eventually took an extension of his tour and part of the extension was a thirty-day leave, so Scott ended up coming home for Christmas (00:44:35:00) o Scott’s family had a space-heater in their house and Scott spent most of his time home sitting next to it; his body was so used to be being in 130°s and midsummer weather (00:44:56:00) During his tour, Scott knew he was witnessing history, which served as incentive for him to take as many pictures as he could of what he saw and to try to obtain as much materials as he could (00:45:27:00) Whenever he received a promotion, Scott had to fly from Qui Nhơn back to Tân Sơn Nhứt and during the flight, the helicopter would fly out over the ocean (00:46:07:00) At one point, Scott received an R&R to go to Japan, which was seven days being out of enemy gunfire and harm’s way (00:46:19:00) o Scott looked at the R&R partially as an educational opportunity, where he could learn about yet another culture (00:46:35:00)  Scott liked going to Japan, especially because the Japanese people were very friendly (00:46:41:00) �      o During the R&R, Scott ended up riding on a Japanese bullet train and hydrofoil, visiting the Olympic village in Tokyo, visiting a religious temple, and seeing Mt. Fuji from a distancing (00:46:47:00) o Scott ended up staying in a place labeled “the Japanese Riviera”, which was centered around the town of Atami (00:47:12:00) While working in his company, one of the jobs Scott really got involved in was ordering parts for the company’s engine shop; the personnel working in the engine shop always wanted spare parts on-hand so they never had to wait for parts to come in (00:47:25:00) o Over time, Scott impressed the others with how organized his work was in regards to making sure there were always spare parts (00:47:45:00)  At one point, a warrant officer in a Cobra attack helicopter unit came in looking for spare parts (00:47:52:00)  Scott asked what the warrant officer was looking for and when the officer told him, Scott gave him the parts; after the officer left, Scott’s platoon sergeant asked why Scott had given the officer the parts and Scott said it was a good thing if the other unit wanted to make the repairs (00:48:11:00)  A couple of days later, the warrant officer came back and asked if Scott would like to take a ride in one of the Cobras; Scott asked for just a minute so he could go and grab his camera (00:48:32:00) During one night, Scott was able to watch an attack by an Air Force gunship named “Puff, the Magic Dragon” (00:48:53:00) o The gunships consisted of three mini-guns all pointed out of one side of the aircraft; the aircraft would fly in a circle with that side pointed towards the ground and each mini-gun would fire in 30sec bursts (00:49:06:00) o The personnel who worked on the gunship told the other men that a single 30sec burst could cover every square inch of a football field (00:49:22:00) o Another time, Scott watched gun strafing runs made by F-4 Phantom jet fighters (00:49:43:00) Scott was only injured once during his tour, when he jumped out of a helicopter, twisted his ankle, and tore some of his ligaments (00:49:54:00) o Although the Army was willing to give him a Purple Heart for the injury, Scott declined (00:50:05:00) Scott spent the majority of his tour at Qui Nhơn, although couple of times he went into the Valley to help dispose of old sheet metal at a dumpsite (00:50:28:00) o When the soldiers got to the dumpsite, they were swarmed by Vietnamese; although the men were initially suspicious, they talked it over and decided to let the Vietnamese had the sheet metal to use in their homes (00:51:05:00) A couple of the tricks the Viet Cong used were booby-trapping left-over American supplies and wrapping a grenade in electrical tape and throwing it into the fuel reservoir of a downed aircraft; when the Americans came to pick up the aircraft, it was a readymade bomb (00:51:35:00) Given the location of the airfield, the personnel had access to a beach right on the South China Sea and Scott went there a couple of times (00:52:05:00) �    o At the time, there was a branch of the Army called Special Services and it was their job to take care of all recreational facilities for the soldiers, such as a the beach at Qui Nhơn (00:52:18:00) During his tour, Scott happened to run into a girl who he had gone to grade school with in Michigan and who was working as a nurse (00:52:56:00) From his experiences, Scott and the other soldiers kept the same attitude throughout their entire tour (00:53:15:00) o However, Scott did not realize how unpopular the war had become in the United States until he returned home (00:53:29:00)  On his way home, Scott had to go through Seattle-Tacoma International Airport and as he was walking through the airport, someone walked up to him, spit on him, and called him a “baby-killer” (00:53:44:00)  After the incident in the airport, Scott’s attitude changed and he became more resentful of the anti-war protestors (00:54:01:00) o Most of the soldiers Scott served with did a good job in their assignments but above all else, they just wanted to get home (00:54:30:00) Some of the other veterans Scott knows have mental problems as a result of their time in the service and when Scott himself came home, he had nightmares at first (00:54:56:00) o One night, Scott ran out of his house scream that they were under attack and he threw a punch at his father, who was already up and getting ready to go to work; Scott’s father replied by punching Scott and knocking him out before putting him back in his bed (00:55:28:00)  Scott’s father knew what Scott was going through, have served in combat himself (00:55:41:00) o When he started going to community college, Scott had a psychology professor and one night, Scott and the professor sat and just talked; it was the professor who suggested Scott talk about what he had gone through (00:56:00:00)  The professor rationalized Scott’s experiences in that he had been put into a situation where either Scott had to kill the enemy or the enemy was going to kill him (00:56:30:00)  Although the professor said Scott did not need to talk about everything that happened, he should at least bring out enough to ease the anxiety built up inside him (00:56:41:00) Scott has not really stayed in contact with the other men he served with; for the most part, once the men got home, it was just the fact that they had made it through and were happy to be home (00:56:52:00) o One of the constant things the men talked about was wanting to go home and what they were going to do when they got there; one of Scott’s biggest cravings was to have a McDonald’s hamburger (00:57:12:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ScottJ1477V Title A name given to the resource Scott, Joseph (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Scott, Joseph Description An account of the resource In order to avoid the draft, while still a junior in high school, Joseph Scott elected to join the Michigan National Guard in 1965. After about a year and a half in the guard, he decided to go on active duty and trained as an aircraft mechanic at Fort Eustis, Virginia. He volunteered for Vietnam, and was assigned to the 540th Transportation Company, 34th Battalion, 14th Transportation Division stationed at an airfield in Qui Nhơn. While at the Qui Nhơn airfield, Scott split his time between working as a mechanic and as part of the base security force. He also spent some time Tan Son Nhut and Vung Tau. During Scott's tour, which he extended to a second year, he experienced the 1968 Tet offensive, during which the Viet Cong placed the Qui Nhơn airfield under a four-day siege. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Montagna, Douglas (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-01-22 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c62be0427d4ffbf98144b8fea8b70cbd.m4v bdb12f9adc05b4d6124695ff22370222 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0362b2639aafbde9d92cdf8f4cdd7d90.pdf 0118ac57dbf6d8108049286c589e316c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Francis Scott Length of interview (02:02:07) Pre-Enlistment (00:17)        Working at AC Sparkplug in Flint, Michigan. (00:18) Lived with family in Mt. Morris. (00:22) Was a Job Setter, setting up machines to cut threads for aircraft sparkplugs. (00:25) Went to Mt. Morris High School (00:36) Lettered in baseball, track and football. (00:40) Was in class plays and operas. (00:50) Remembers Pearl Harbor o Was at his Grandma‟s house in Genesee eating dinner with his family (01:09) Enlistment (01:14)         Drafted in October of 1942 (01:19) Thinks he was sworn in on October 16th (01:24) Reported on October 30 to Fort Custer, Michigan (01:28) Took away his clothes at Fort Custer, gave him a tetanus shot and a large bag of clothes to carry (01:50) Took a train out west through the northern part of the country, down through the Columbia River Valley (02:04) Got off the train at Corvallis, Oregon, and joined a group called 381st Infantry Regiment (02:16) Took a test for aptitude as a radio operator, passed it and learned to use a radio using Morse Code (02:31) Passed with a high enough score to be sent to Washington State College in June of 1943 to March of 1944 (02:45) Training (02:52)  Did physical education late in the afternoon o Lieutenant‟s name was Craig o Captain‟s name was Francis Mandel, a third string quarterback at Notre Dame (03:15) o Played scrub football  It rained a lot in the winter, didn‟t freeze very much  When they fell out for formation, they had to wear a rifle belt with a raincoat folded over (03:41)  Began learning the alphabet at about three to four words per minute (03:48) � When the alphabet was mastered, the speed was moved up and he learned to copy code with a pencil—the infantry didn‟t carry a typewriter in combat (03:58) o At 14 words per minute, he was classified as a radio operator, also fired a rifle. o Scored „sharp-shooter‟, missed „expert‟ by one point (04:27)  Talks about firing 32 shots inside of a minute with Lieutenant Craig for fun—only missed a couple shots (04:51)  At that point he did not know he would be part of the invasion of Europe (05:02) o 381st Infantry was still fighting in the South Pacific o Remembers getting letters from home about his friends being shot and killed (05:23) o Did not know where he was going to go, but the 381st Infantry, part of the 86th division, went to the South Pacific and Philippines (05:41)  Turned 21, had to go to the captain to get a permission slip to go to a liquor store to buy a bottle of „booze‟ (05:57) o Talks about the celebration, dancing with the girls in Eugene, Oregon o Learned to eat salads, “because I was broke” (07:14)  Remembers not having a lot of money o Remembers a man who used to play banjo to get money for beer and cigarettes (07:43)  Remembers a friend named Elmer Reagan (08:30) o Remembers a “quizzical look on his face, like he wasn‟t the brightest bulb on the Christmas Tree” (08:35) o Remembers Elmer getting poison oak (11:23) o Talks about married men in the division. (12:47)  Began hiking, first six, then twelve miles (13:08) o At twenty-six miles, Elmer was dropping behind o Discovered Elmer had a heart problem and Elmer was discharged (13:26) o Lost contact with Elmer Fort Lewis, Washington (15:10)  Remembers “Rosie the Riveter” o A girl he took out to the movies who was named Rosie, she was a riveter at a shipyard (15:36)  Was called down to the army personnel office division headquarters, he was asked if he wanted to go to college o He was told the army was selecting people to learn engineering o He was eligible to go because he passed his “Army General Certification Test” high enough (16:27) o He accepted, he was told it was Idaho University—he was there for a week before being shipped to Washington State College (17:03) o Spent forty hours a week in class  Was determined to stay out of the infantry—Lieutenant Craig wanted him to be in Intelligence and Reconnaissance, there was a two-hundred percent casualty rate in the first month (18:06)  Remembers a very strict Captain (19:11) � Describes his dormitory o Eight men, with four double bunks and two desks (19:51) o Was a Cadet Lieutenant, marched his section of twenty men to and from classes  Describes his comrades (21:16)  In September of 1943, he returned home (22:05) o Describes the rationing of food and gas, cars weren‟t being made o Manufacturing plants made machine guns and tank parts instead o Liked to go back to AC Sparkplugs and flirt with the girls (23:18)  Remembers other soldiers from his high school (25:19) o “They did a good job turning civilians into soldiers” o Everyone knew someone in the war effort o Tells a story about “Dirty George” (28:40) o Tells a story about the romance of another friend (31:20) **break in the video** Washington State College (34:04)  “Future Officers” o Would end up doing civil engineering  In winter of 1944, there was a buildup in England about D-day (34:52) o The end of March, the program he was in would be terminated o A few were persuaded to go to medical school  “Field Expedience” is how you survive (36:05)  Tells about a roadblock he once helped set up (37:45) o Were testing Artillery Camp Cook (39:25)     Joined the Radio Division of Camp Cook, California Tells a story about his trip to Los Angeles (41:13) Was always very foggy Tells a story about driving friends home in very dense fog while stationed at Camp Cook (43:51)  Went on Furlough in June (44:40) o Fourteen days o “The smell of the foliage and the hay, it‟s different than California, you know you‟re home” (45:17) o Shortly after D-day o Visited his friends, no dates, was writing a girl already (46:57) o Did not have the self-confidence to court seriously o Tells about his sisters and their love interests (48:17)  Returns back and receives a letter telling him of his sisters‟ double wedding (49:37)  Takes a trip through San Francisco, Denver and the Rio Grande o Would do exercises when the train was stopped or delayed (50:28) � Went to New Jersey o There were German prisoners of war (50:51) o Regiment was marched out at night for a lesson on how sound will travel at night—learned to be cautious at night (52:27) o Left Brooklyn at night on the HMS Cimmeria (53:43) HMS Cimmeria (53:43)      Off the coast of Cape Cod there were ships as far as the eye could see (53:47) September 30, 1944 1one of the largest convoys to leave Didn‟t like smoked fish, so bought cookies and Ginger Ale (54:24) There were Baby Flattops, Destroyer Escorts, Destroyers (54:55) Had a sense of how the war was going in Europe o “We knew by then that they had busted through in St. Lo and they were in the eastern part of France.” (55:49)  Knew they had liberated Paris, knew about the casualties of D-Day (56:03)  Had to decide on career, relationships, so when the army took over, they felt free, postponing their decisions (56:54)  Arrived in England October 12th England (58:02)  Left December 9th or 20th  Remembers that Machine Guns and Sub Machine Guns were packed in a heavy grease, had to wash them off now that they would not be corroded by the salt in the air (59:12)  Remembers a Lieutenant whose jeep was so loaded with armor plate, “it was a wonder it could even move” (1:00:28)  The army called jeeps “peeps”  Remembers going to see Stonehenge, Salisbury, went to see Bath, talked to the girls in Bristol at the cigarette factories, danced the hokey-pokey with the English girls (1:01:01) **tape switches** Active Duty (1:01:24)  Well aware of the Germans being in disguise in American uniforms, they had found a weak point in the Allied lines in the Ardennes Forest (1:01:28)  Loaded up and drove to Weymouth, England (1:01:31)  Boarded an LST 510, sailed across the channel to Cherbourg Bay o Was down on the tank deck, when General Quarters Alarm sounded (1:02:27) o Before the alarm they heard a “horrible screeching, wrenching sound of metal on metal” (1:02:36) o Was high tide, and there was a sunken super-structure there which tore out some armor from the bottom of the boat (1:03:07) o The damage was near the engine room, compartments in the bottom of the ship �stopped the spread of water, but the lights went out and they were on auxiliary batteries (1:03:25) o They were ordered to the top deck, and told to go over the side of the ship, remembers that no one broke their leg on the long drop (1:04:59)  The Germans were concentrating on the Bulge, back in England they had worried about Buzz Bombs  There was another LST, which they boarded for the night. In the morning the 510 was next to them (1:06:05)  Drove off to a Gasoline dump, where they were told to stay until told otherwise (1:06:36) o Remembers being stationed near the farm house nearby o A large car comes up, with a woman and man in it who request to talk to the commander, remembers being told to help the man load gasoline into his car (1:07:32) o The man tells them he was in the Maquis (1:08:07)  Went to Paris, stayed the night in a small French city o Remembers being freezing (1:08:26) o Another soldier, Sparta, rigged a jeep for warmth (1:09:56)  Tells a story about two French men who share a drink with the soldiers (1:11:18)  Was in Paris the 22nd or 23rd of December, was going to help out the Americans in the Battle of the Bulge (1:12:39)  Celebrated Christmas in France  While staying in Belgian barracks, they persuaded other soldiers to give them extra blankets (1:14:32)  Went into a radio park, were monitoring the 4th Armored Division, had mortar shells dropped on them (1:15:29)  Remembers getting reports that the Germans were getting pushed back (1:15:47)  Was up in a pine tree for the night, they dug a trench and put rocks in the bottom, covered the rocks with dead branches and made a fire (1:16:38)  Was about 4-5 miles from the front at that point  Describes in great detail formation and their orders (1:18:01) o Were supposed to send and receive messages  Was in a 5 man crew, names the members of the group (1:19:53) o Describes his shift, from 12 am to 3 am o Never ran out of battery power or gas (1:21:04) o Had to be there in case a general needed something done  Describes the chain of communication with wires and radios (1:22:17)  Busiest day: (1:22:04) o In a valley, a butte nearby, enemy on the high side o Pulled tanks up and fired from where they couldn‟t be seen o Problems with communication, signal strength minimal (1:23:09) o Put up extra antennas, kept working on it for 3-4 hours  Describes wiring communications through a house (1:24:58)  Tells a story about his friend, Sparta o Sparta broke out a window of a house they found, put a lard can in the broken window (1:25:50) �o Rigged the stove, built a fire to make themselves more comfortable  January or February of 1945 (1:27:26) Route to the Battle of the Bulge (1:28:07)  Reads statistics about the Battle of the Bulge o Germans had 550 thousand troops, lost 120 thousand (1:28:30) o 50 thousand English, 50 thousand US troops; 19 thousand killed (1:29:19) o Movement of troops to Europe largest migration of humans in history  Went to a small town in Belgium for about 10 days  Didn‟t have hot water until 3-4 weeks in combat (1:30:57) o Didn‟t do anything on the radio for a week  Went to another small town o One soldier fixed up an old accordion (1:32:47)  Scott stands and begins pointing to a map (1:33:19) o In 6 days, went over 50 miles o Describes a Pontoon Bridge (1:34:31) o Describes going to a warehouse and getting wine  Normal Rations (1:36:00) o GI food o Breakfast: Cooked eggs, toast, coffee, sometimes powdered eggs, or French toast o Supper: various meals o Describes going through a usual supper routine (1:36:42)  Scott moves back to the map (1:37:17) o Captured about 10 thousand troops near where Scott points at o Points at Worms, captured 17 thousand there o Scott traces route further o Discovered “slave laborers” for the first time, but not surprised (1:39:00)  Worms: o One night a German convoy went alongside their position, Americans opened fire and killed them all. Took some supplies and traded them (1:40:33) o The supplies were traded to a baker; they received pies back, and the baker gave the bread made with the supplies to the starving German people Battle of the Bulge (1:41:09)  Would wake up early and start heading towards the area (1:42:01)  Sometimes would stop and wait for 2-3 days before intelligence decided where to go next, or for gasoline  Was shot at, got up in the turret of the halftrack, shot into the woods and told his comrades to go tell the commander what had taken place (1:43:33)  Later learned that a Red Cross worker had been shot and injured  Scott‟s gun jammed, picked up the driver‟s 45 and kept firing (1:44:30)  Started seeing dead bodies along the road, in civilian clothes, some were Jewish � Several days later, found emaciated people walking back down the road o So thin that when the wind blew “you could see the triangle of their femurs” (1:45:28)  Near an open field, there was counter intelligence and 13 German prisoners. o Saw a pile of bodies about 30 ft long and 3 to 4 ft high (1:45:19) o 3 “Political Prisoners” grabbed machine guns, marched by 6 to 9 Nazi soldiers to a gully and shot them(1:46:56) o “Death March” started out with around 50 thousand prisoners, many were killed  He was disgusted and angry (1:48:17)  Events took place in April, 1945  Tells another story about Sparta, and how he found ways to get a hot meal o Doesn‟t know what happened to him after the war (1:50:28) After the War (1:51:12)  Captured Linz, Austria: found two concentration camps (1:51:18) o German civilians were made to pick up the bodies in the concentration camp and bury them (1:52:06)  Was the furthest East of any unit  Contacted Russians in May  Scott‟s unit, 11th Armed Division, captured 79,299 prisoners  Tells about his “unique experience” with prisoners (1:53:14) o War was almost over, April 23rd o Scott changes the map o Outside of a small town o It was late in the afternoon, and he had stomach cramps, went to use the bathroom behind a bush. He spots 5 Hungarian soldiers coming over the ridge o They had 3 white flags, a Hungarian National Flag and a Regimental Flag (1:54:52) o Directs the soldiers back to his unit, and tells his commanding officers he believes they want to surrender o Decided to go back and get his shovel afterwards, his friends tell him he should have gotten the Hungarian‟s pistols, they sold for 100 dollars apiece (1:57:34)  Scott points out on the map, tells that the Hungarians surrendered 2000 men. Final Thoughts (1:58:48)  Believes there is not enough recognition of D-Day, Pearl Harbor, VE-day, Battle of the Bulge and other important events in World War II (1:59:03)  Believes these events should never be forgotten, and is proud of his division  Tells about a website for the 11th Armored Division (1:59:47) o Submits articles to them and keeps in touch � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ScottF Title A name given to the resource Scott, Francis (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Scott, Francis Description An account of the resource Francis Scott was drafted in October of 1942. He was trained to be a radio operator and attended college at Washington State from June of 1943 to March of 1944. He was stationed in California for a short while before he was sent to Europe, where he served in England, the Battle of the Bulge and the invasion of Germany as a radio operator in the 11th Armored Division. At the end of the war he saw many refugees, helped liberate two concentration camps, and participated in the capture of 2,000 Hungarian soldiers in Austria. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Montagna, Douglas (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-11-16 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b6cac933802147f5c4cd3b486008625.pdf 817dabca480437ad850a75b99570e52b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Desert Storm Matthew Urbancik Total Time – (06:18) Background • • • • • • • • • • • He joined the military because he wanted to do something with electronics (00:12) He felt that the Navy had the most electronic devices but they would not let him in at the time so he joined the Air Force and became a jet mechanic (00:24) After boot camp he left for jet mechanic school o He was the top of his class He was in the military for over 20 years He did not have many prospects outside of the military so he decided to re-enlist o He saw the benefits that could be gained from retiring (01:22) o He re-enlisted after serving for seven years He achieved the Chief Petty Officer ranking (01:41) o He was an E-7 rank o Each promotion is based primarily off of performance and test scores (01:56) As Desert Storm was getting started, he was preparing to go to sea duty (03:21) o He was on shore duty but he was working very long days When 9/11 happened, his unit was in a defensive role on their own base (04:16) The military helped teach him how to focus on his tasks and how to achieve his goals o It taught him how to be dependable and reliable (04:41) He spent two months in boot camp that taught him survival skills (05:03) He advises young people to set their goals high � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context UrbancikM1207V Title A name given to the resource Urbancik, Matthew (Interview outline), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Urbancik, Matthew Description An account of the resource Matthew Urbancik joined the military because he wanted to work with electronics. He initially sought out the Navy but was declined, and later enlisted into the Air Force to become a jet mechanic. Matthew saw the benefits of retiring from the military and re-enlisted after seven years. He served during Desert Storm and retired as a Chief Petty Officer. When 9/11 happened, his unit became a defensive unit on a domestic military base. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melton, Hannah (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-06-01 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a390e84b0cef6b808d62e07097ed4c15.pdf ce1e30538a96acf13ab9de923c432c65 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Vietnam War Wayne Umlor (23:54) Hospital Stay (00:00) • • • • One of his fellow soldiers who was wounded wanted to see his friend so badly that he had Wayne unhook him from his equipment in the middle of the night and take him. (00:05) While unhooking the man Wayne was caught by a nurse. She called in a doctor who assisted in unhooking the wounded soldier. (1:40) A two star general make rounds in the hospital every 2 weeks to pin purple hearts on the pillows of the wounded. One of Wayne’s friends told him to tell the general to just throw the medal away because if the general had listened to the men on the ground in the first place he wouldn’t have gotten hurt. (3:10) Wayne was in the hospital. Wayne was given the option to stay in Vietnam or to rest in Japan, and then be sent to serve the rest of his time back in the states. Wayne decided to stay in Vietnam because it would result in him being out quicker. (5:02) Service in Vietnam (6:38) • • • • • • • • • He spent approx a month and a half in a hospital in Cam Ranh Bay. When Wayne returned to his unit he was given the job of a jeep driver. (6:49) During Wayne’s last 2 months in the service he elected to be a sergeant back in the field. (8:22) For his last month with his company, men really went out in the field; they mostly were put on a base. (10:10) Men often got very nervous the closer their time approached to leave (10:45) Newspaper clippings of operations that Wayne’s platoon were in. (11:49) During one operation a helicopter was shot down resulting in many men being carried in it being thrown out of the aircraft on to the ground. This event resulted in many wounded. (13:00) This accident required that the men be vertically extracted from the area. There were so many casualties that they were flown to 3 different hospitals. (13:50) One man who was knocked out was left behind. When the men retuned the next day to retrieve him, the man had buried himself for cover and he was found alive. (14:30) One of the cooks who Wayne knew fairly well was killed when a stove exploded. He lived for 1 month with fatal burns before dying. (16:40) Thoughts on Service (17:49) • • • • He was discharged in approx. 1970. (17:20) He thought that the Vietnam was controlled by politics and thusly was very frustrating. (18:30) He thinks that the Vietnam War, when it began, was necessary. (18:55) He believes that the actions taken in Iraq were also needed as well. (19:20) �• The restrictions on what solders could and could not do during the war was very frustrating for the men involved. (21:08) Medals and Documents (22:04) • He was awarded 2 purple hearts. (22:42) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context UmlorW0847V Title A name given to the resource Umlor, Wayne (Interview outline), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Umlor, Wayne Description An account of the resource Wayne Umlor served as a sergeant in an infantry company during the Vietnam War. During his time in Vietnam, Wayne was wounded and spent several months in a military hospital. He was also awarded 2 purple hearts. After being healed he served 2 more months in the field before being discharged in 1970. Note: This interview is incomplete, and starts with him in the hospital. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Van Dyke, DJ (Interviewer) Lindberg, Amy (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-02-17 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1ea8ce78b7b45494a2d39148bb379f6.pdf a1c5bed16456b850621239ddfe1aaff8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project George Ulrich (7:58) Basic training (00:12) • • • • George attended Basic training in Alabama. Here he learned how to fire weapons, including rifles and machine guns. (00:12) The men frequently marched at night. (00:40) George was sent to Fort McClellan, Alabama where he was taught about gas and how to maneuver around it. (1:05) From his training in Alabama he was sent to Korea for 15 months. (1:36) Service in Korea (1:55) • • • • • • George was stationed in Soul Korea while in country there he was taught how to crack safes. (2:15) He served as a chief electrician. This consisted of fixing machinery that broke down. (2:50) Though the war had ended in 1953, there were still U.S. soldiers in Korea concerned about North Korea crossing the DMZ line. (3:31) George arrived in Korea in 1954. In 1955 he was sent back to the U.S., specifically Washington Stat. He was stent sent to and then Fort Leopard Wood, Missouri. (5:05) George did reenlist. (6:03) It’s difficult to keep in contact with the men George befriended in service because they had been spread out so much after being discharged. (6:52) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context UlrichG1396V Title A name given to the resource Ulrich, George (Interview outline), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ulrich, George Description An account of the resource George Ulrich took his Army basic training at Fort McClellan. He was sent to Korea in 1954 as an electrician. He returned to the U.S. in 1955 and reenlisted in the military. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Watson, Ian (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-28 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7ab7be69b40504793abfb73185697c83.mp4 9d093871cc64ffe8eb045f4ebf4e1631 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3a255476a8676e48daeff6e796734c6.pdf 0dbd3630be5ed5efa775d7e047e2e31e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Eric Schwaller (56:52)Pre Enlistment Born Sept 19 1954 in WA Moved to Allison Park, PA Father was diesel salesman for 30 years, married 54 years Attended Birchfield Elementary, until moved to Plymouth, MI, HS class of 72 Has one sister, Anne, 48 years old. Lives in Veterans Home, Grand Rapids, MI (4:20) Military Involvement He worked various odd jobs. Before enlisting after graduation He attended Basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, MO He was trained as a Loader, Tank Platoon 1st/64th Armor acting as support for 1st/15th Infantry in Germany Tour in Germany was three years long. (12:05) Leaves Army, Joins Navy Business classes, gets 9 credit He joins navy due to Unemployment. Sent to Sub school, trained on finer points of submarine Gets orders to Hawaii, drives with yeoman to San Diego, flies from Miramar to Pearl Harbor (18:38) Submarine Experiences Confined spaces required certain affability. �He was required to learn every valve on the boat. Nuclear sub carrying nukes, operated out of Guam. Performed various onboard duties. Friend only thought of women, not submarine material. (24:35) Back to the Army Spent 18 months as civilian, then re-enlisted in Army. Had to wait for background check Was stationed at Fort Bliss, TX. MOS 16Romeo Vulcan Gunnery Crew Colonel picked him as driver and offered him membership into the 101st airborne He was re stationed to Germany, tested on various vehicles Visited Auschwitz and Eagle’s nest while in Germany ETS in Germany, came home, some paperwork was missing. (39:36) (Battery Change) Army, Again Wanted to become a NCO. Underwent Examination. Became 71 Gold, but didn’t make E5 (42:20) Air Reserve Finally became noncom. Went into the Air guard, went to Grayling, Selfridge, and Alpena. Didn’t like it very much 1st/238th Battalion, worked with Heuy’s Reminisces with interviewer? (52:50) Other Army Happy about his service. Learned how to make reports. �Dad is his best friend. (56:52) Post Army Sunoco hired him as an Inspector. Tells Anecdotal stories Worked at Meijer, worked briefly at a military base. Feel empathy for those troops overseas Resident at the Coit Street facility.   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchwallerE Title A name given to the resource Schwaller, Eric (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schwaller, Eric Description An account of the resource Eric Schwaller is a very unique veteran; he served in three branches of the armed forces between 1972 and 1998. He started as a tank crewman in Germany. He joined the Navy traveled undersea in a nuclear missile-bearing nuclear submarine and returned to the army and was a member of the 101st Airborne. He then enlisted in the Air Reserve, and then transferred to the Air National Guard. He now lives in the Coit Street VA facility in Grand Rapids. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army United States. Navy United States--National Guard Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-01-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3af297d6656e1ec5799b8155803a5ab.m4v bc4961b89ac80898face9271431dcd62 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09895581cdd2c5c1bc7d6749492543ad.pdf 90117e172877c76f4e26073f9d364f37 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Californialvin Schutte Korean War Total Time: 1:21:35 Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (0:00:06)       Born in 1924 on a farm in Michigan. He lived there until for most of his early life, except for a short period of time in which he worked in a General Motors factory. His father farmed He had 2 brothers and 3 sisters. He attended school with other farm kids. (0:10:22) He worked in Grand Rapids, MI after he left home. He ended up working for Spartan Stores in the meat department. He and his wife lived in the country and drove to work. He was drafted into the Army in April, 1951. Training and Active Duty (0:19:40)             Took basic training at Californiamp Roberts, California (0:20:07) Was sent to Fort Ord, California. From there, they were put on ships and sent to Korea. They passed under the Golden Gate Bridge on the way out of San Francisco Harbor. (0:24:40) They arrived in Okinawa and were split into smaller groups. They were again divided in Japan, where he was sent on to Korea. (0:25:15) They were then told to get onto a railroad car when he got to Korea. During the trip they witnessed fires being kept along the railroad tracks by the civilians in the area. (0:27:10) They were sent to the island of Koji-do where they guarded prisoners of war for 2 weeks. (0:28:40) Was then sent to an area Called the Punch Bowl where he fought in combat for the first time. They had to use helicopters to transport the wounded out. (0:30:45) He was then sent to Heartbreak Ridge. They arrived in late March and stabilized their positions by June because there were peace negotiations taking place. They were in these positions until he left. (0:34:10) He arrived in Korea in December 1951. (0:34:51) He was in the 25th Infantry “Wolfhound” Division. (0:35:05) He lost over half of his hearing during his time in the Army. The trees on Heartbreak Ridge, he remembers, were destroyed and looked like matchsticks. (0:40:17) He was in Korea for 11 months. He went over on the ship Nelson Walker and came back on the Marine Adder. Hey left from San Francisco, California and returned to Seattle, Washington. �        (0:44:08) They treated their POWs well when they were guarding the camp. (0:46:01) He was the squad leader when he first got to the front lines. He was then promoted the Sergeant and section leader. (0:48:11) He was in charge of 12 men as squad leader and 28 as a section leader. (0:49:57) He was given a desk job when he got back to Fort Custer, Michigan, before he was released from the Army. (0:53:38) Early on, his unit was re-organized and they spent time guarding prisoners. He observed poverty among many of the Korean civilians while he was there. (0:56:50) He found many of the Korean people to be very grateful for his service. (1:05:10) They were met in the harbor by victory ships, which sprayed them with water as they entered the harbor. There were also bands in attendance. Post-Service (1:10:27)   He returned home and went back to his job at General Motors, and then drove trucks and farmed. He met his wife shortly after he returned from Korea. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchutteC Title A name given to the resource Schutte, Calvin (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schutte, Calvin Description An account of the resource Calvin Schutte was born in Michigan and served in the Army during the Korean War. He arrived in Korea in December, 1951 after having been drafted into the service. He attained the rank of Sergeant and Squad Leader, and served in several capacities including general infantry duty and guarding prisoners on Koji-do Island. He spent much of his service on Heartbreak Ridge serving with the 25th Infantry Division. He returned to the United States and worked as a farmer and for General Motors. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gunneson-Paling, Ruth (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-02 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/150383f100576025a633f4640e78824a.mp4 da3f389b9767aedc002c223b4c934286 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/70806a3a7b4ef44434463e237a8e4eb0.pdf c80ca1f23be2b1766f9f2534569ea5da PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 23:38 George Schuster WWII Veteran United State Navy; 1941 to 1945/46 Introduction (0:17) • Was born in St. Claire Shores. Entry into service (1:07) • Lied about his age to enlist in the Navy at 17 in 1941. Schuster was worried his mother would be very upset since his brother had already enlisted. Training (2:06) • Schuster did basic training in Farragut, ID, which he described as “Hell on Earth.” Schuster then went to Great Lakes, then to San Diego. Service (3:12) • Was assigned to the “black gang” which worked in the engine room on boilers and auxiliary equipment. • Schuster describes men getting seasick and eating well as many didn’t want their food. Went from San Diego to Pearl Harbor. First mission was picking up wounded men from islands and bringing them back to Pearl Harbor, which took about 15 days. (3:57) • Schuster describes the LSV and more missions ferrying troops, as well as some of the islands the ship went to. After the war, the ship carried marines to islands to search for Japanese, which they killed. (5:37) • Was most worried about submarines as the ship mostly did convoy duty. The ship had three aircraft silhouettes painted on the bridge to represent planes shot down. (7:44) • Evaporator rooms on the ship made fresh drinking water for drinking and showering. Men from other ships would come aboard to take showers (9:00) • Schuster recalls the LSV being a good ship able to ride out typhoons. Only 5 were constructed, 2 of which served in the war zone. (9:48) �• Schuster talks about going ashore on islands where they would have shore parties, drinking beer and playing baseball. Mentions that they were in a convoy preparing to participate in the invasion of Japan when Japan surrendered, and they turned around and came back. On Leyte, they stuck close by the ship or risked being shot. (10:40) • Recalls Manilla being all shot up. The Filipinos had buried their taxi cabs, then dug them up with horses. (12:10) • Schuster talks about Navy prisoners having their sentences reduced drastically if they would agree to go out to sea as replacements for crew killed. (13:18) • There was plenty of food aboard ship, with three large freezers down below. Only milk had to be used up quickly. Cigarettes would also go stale and were often given to natives. (14:30) • Ship served as a hospital ship. Ship had a new sickbay but no doctor onboard, instead using military medics. One nurse on board who, as the only woman, had her own quarters. (16:16) • Made three trips to Pearl Harbor, where they often had liberty. According to Schuster everyone there had guns. The ship wouldn’t stay at Pearl Harbor long, usually long enough to fuel up, then leave. (17:22) After the War (18:29) • Discharged in 1945 or ’46. Took his discharge in California and was given money and a train ticket back to Michigan. During the trip was burned and sent to Great Lakes hospital. • Worked for his brother-in-law at a dry cleaners. Worked for years at a vending machine company from which he retired. • Shuster was glad to get out. Considered staying in for 20 years, but couldn’t get better pay and leave. Doesn’t regret at all, saw a lot of places and got to know a lot of people. (20:50) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchusterG Title A name given to the resource Schuster, George (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schuster, George Description An account of the resource George Schuster served in the Navy during WW II aboard a Logistics Support Vessel (LSV), of which only 5 were used during the war. During this interview Schuster talks about serving in the engine room of the LSV, and trips between various islands and Pearl Harbor ferrying wounded personnel. Schuster also describes Manila after it's liberation from the Japanese, and about Navy prisoners having their sentences reduced if they went to sea. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/57e59e5098ace1d4ef7dc08c21022c16.mp4 e5d547d1c05900bdb44e033b84d7669d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3af6f8cce020b96a06377bcda02d10b0.pdf e846c022b14644fd1870c5aac201416f PDF Text Text James Schultz (1:27:47) (00:11) Background Information • James was born on August 2, 1964 in Chicago, Illinois • His father was in the Canadian Royal Air Force • They moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1975 • He graduated from Grand Rapids Baptist Academy high school in 1983 • James took one semester at Grand Rapids Community College • Then he enlisted in the Army and was sent to Detroit • He had worked at Moulder Concrete before enlisting • James signed up to be an Airborne Medical Specialist (6:30) Training • He was first sent to Fort Dix, NJ • James then went to jump school at Fort Benning, Georgia • Jump school lasted from 14 to 16 weeks and he learned history, uniform, marching and weapons • He was sent to advanced individual training in medical for 4 months at Fort Sam Houston • James learned how to treat injuries and give IVs • He was at Fort Benning for 4 months • They had long hours and learned all about parachuting • Every day the line up got smaller because people were washing out (27:11) Fort Bragg • James then went to Fort Bragg, NC and was assigned to the 82nd airborne and worked for the HQ company • He was there for about 2 years and did a lot of jumping at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina • James was assigned to a medical personnel company �• The rucksack he had to carry weighed about 65 pounds • They fired weapons about every 2 to 3 months which was more than most of the Military • He did patrols at night • James crossed trained with repelling and mortars • For Christmas James went home for 2 weeks, but it wasn’t until he had been in the Army for a year and a half • He did 43 jumps total • When he was in the field He had to help a guy that broke his back on a jump • Another time a machine gun jammed and the bullet burst in a man’s face, so James had to treat him for burns • While sleeping in a field another guy got ran over by a medic car and he had to be treated for a broken jaw • James became a senior line medic • He had cold weather training at Fort McCoy, Wisconsin • James then went through jungle training at Fort Sherman, Panama • His rucksack weighed 85 pounds for the cold weather training • He was in Panama for 6 to 8 weeks and it was very hot with rain just about every day • James learned about a lot of the predators, large bugs, and plants in the jungle • They also had water training on rubber boats • He could go snorkeling on his free time • James was there in February of 1987 (1:07:08) Back to the US • He got back to the states and received hospital training at Womack Army Hospital • James worked in post operation surgery, the cardiac ward, and the psyche ward • He didn’t re-enlist so they didn’t send him on to desert training �• James went back home to Grand Rapids • He went back to working construction and went to college to be a paramedic • His GI Bill money helped him get a house • The busy lifestyle of the Army made him restless when he got home • He got an associate’s degree in art in 2001 • James now works as a custodian at Grand Rapids Community College � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchultzJ Title A name given to the resource Schultz, James (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schultz, James Description An account of the resource James Schultz was born in Chicago, Illinois on August 2, 1964 and then moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1975. He enlisted in the Army after a year of college and signed up to be an airborne medical specialist. James then went to boot camp and jump school. After that he had medical training at Fort Sam Houston, Texas. James was stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina with the 82nd Airborne and worked for the HQ Company. His field training at Fort Bragg included a lot of jumps. James then received cold weather training in Wisconsin and jungle training in Panama. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Natte, Jeremiah (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-06-28 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6280f583b738fae1230bb313ff130d2d.mp4 418d3fc5143c4d79fd384dc7372bc2fe https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d50d2157826ec344fab44e14ae72f0bb.pdf fc8fb0ffd1e889c8048f5a4c341a77d5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II, Korean War, Lebanese Conflict, Vietnam War William Schrader Length of interview: (01:58:00) Background Information: (00:00:33)  Born in Alpena, Michigan, on October 19, 1929  Moved to Chelsea, Michigan where he grew up  Father worked in a factory  Went in the army and got a GED in the army  Followed the war news o Was waiting in line for a movie when he heard about Pearl Harbor (00:01:59) o Remembers a sign that had all the names of those who went into the service and those who perished had a star behind their name (00:03:02)  During the war, his mother worked in a factory  At the time (12 years) he did not believe the war would go on long enough for him to serve  Entered the Army July 31, 1948 o Wanted to join the Navy, but the Navy would not take him because his teeth were too bad. The Army did take him, and provided him with dental work (00:04:36) Training: (00:05:00)  Underwent basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky o Very warm weather o Basic training was “a wake-up call”  A lot of fear was used by the leadership o Very structured, and learned very fast because “you did not make the same mistake twice” o Remembers going to the Mammoth Cave o Adjusted very well to military life  It was educational to meet so many new people  Wanted initially to just get off the family farm  Did not have too much trouble with the physical aspect of training  Trained with weapons at this time as well o Training lasted around 8-12 weeks  planned to go to engineer school  was sent to Germany straight out of basic training  went home on leave before being sent to Germany  Went to New York, took 13 days to get to Germany o Slept in the hold of the ship o Got to be on deck a few hours in the morning and evening o The weather was wet and rainy during November, but the seas were not rough o Integration of the army happened before Schrader went to Germany �Germany: (00:10:50)  Arrived in Germany and was assigned to the 26th Infantry Regiment stationed in Bamberg, Germany o Commander was Colonel Samuel T. Williams, “Hanging Sam”  The regiment was in charge at the Nuremburg Trials of hanging the criminals o Was in a rifle company in a rifle squad o Describes the living conditions in Germany (00:12:05)  The buildings were bombed out  The people were desperate  not many middle aged men, mostly women, children and the elderly  Remembers that the leaders were veteran, very well trained men who had fought in North Africa and with the Big Red One in Normandy o The new recruits were trained very well as to not make mistakes that could kill your comrades  Everything was still under martial law in Germany (00:15:55)  Schrader was still in Germany at the beginning of the Korean War. o Rumors about the 1st Infantry Division being airlifted to Korea because they were the best trained division at that time o Instead, were split into A and B groups, one would be sent over, the other would be sent back to the United States to train a new division  Remembers a lot of promotions being made at the time  There were concerns about the Russians during these early stages of the Cold War  Remembers that the division was very strict o Tardiness did not happen, no slack was given to anyone  Schrader decided with a few of his friends after his service was extended by President Truman to re-enlist and volunteer to go to Korea “where the action was” (00:20:00) o 90 days later, Schrader is in Korea Korean War: (00:20:59)  Went to Korea in 1952 o Went home on leave for 60 days, then reported to a base in California was processed there and shipped off to Japan en route to Korea o Arrived in Inchon, Korea  Remembers Seoul being bombed out o Was with the 9th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Infantry Division  There was no core of members, there was a constant turnover of soldiers o Was a Sergeant 1st class at the time, made Master Sergeant very quickly o Was in command of a rifle platoon of 30-35 people o The turnover was near constant  Describes an “Abraham Lincoln” bunker (00:25:12) o had logs on top  Remembers much of war had dissolved into trench warfare  Talks about ambush tactics in a story (00:28:25) o evolves into a story about the worst battle he was in o was awarded the silver star �       o was hit by shrapnel, a very minor wound When the armistice was signed he was back home Was wounded twice while in Korea (00:39:22) o Both times were by shrapnel, both were minor wounds He was always on the front lines during the Korean War R&R was spent in Japan (00:41:21) Recalls a man who committed suicide o shot himself with a pistol outside the bunker o the constant turnover meant he never got to know anyone really well In Korea the units did not stay together as they had in WWII o Schrader remembers having different men switching in and out of the units as being disastrous. o Was thankful that he was trained by WWII soldiers Talks about how much care packages and letters from home meant to the soldiers (00:48:12) After Korea: (00:49:00)  When Schrader came back from Korea, he was assigned to the 44th Infantry Division at Fort Lewis. (00:49:09) o He went to Alaska and underwent cold-weather training and maneuvers. o This was during the Cold War, he was a 1st Sergeant at age 23, but was unhappy o Went to school down in Georgia, to become an officer, and found out about the Airborne. Went to Kentucky for jump school o After Jump school in Kentucky, Schrader went back to Germany, but got married before he left for Germany Germany and Lebanon: (00:51:02)  Went to Germany on a troop ship with his wife. o The wives went on a train separate from their husbands to live in government housing o Stayed in Germany for about 3 years o 11th Airborne division  During the Lebanese Crisis, they were called in on alert—and left for Lebanon, saying that he would be back in a day or two, but were there 113 days, never losing a man in a firefight. o The men they lost were to the undertow in the ocean.  Schrader’s unit was originally supposed to defend Lebanese borders. o The military looked after the families left behind in Germany a little, but the women mainly depended on each other in case of the Cold War breaking into total war. (00:57:18)  Besides Lebanon, his unit jumped into France a few times.  Remembers being treated well by the Germans, and felt appreciated by the citizens.  Schrader remembers wanting to change his branch and joined the Special Forces o went through training in guerilla warfare and counter-insurgency, etc. (01:02:10) �        o 12 men on the Special Forces teams o Had 13 years when he joined the Special Forces in 1961. (01:03:30) Around the time of Bay of Pigs the Green Beret was authorized by President Kennedy Schrader’s unit went to Laos in 1961-62 before the beginning of the Vietnam War in 1965 (01:04:30) Talks about creating a military force out of Laotian villagers to defend themselves against the communists Remembers the culture and a pair of British missionaries in Laos (01:10:12) Left Laos in 1962 or 1963, and went to Iran before going to Vietnam in 1965 In Iran, the Shah wanted forces trained like the Laotians. (01:16:45) o Talks about the terrain of Iran, how they received water and food o Talks about being captured by the Iranian army while training recruits for the Shah’s forces. o Had contact with the Kurds, although not very often (01:22:18) After Iran, Schrader returned to the United States until the Vietnam War began Schrader remembers that he was going through Special Forces training when President Kennedy was assassinated. o The assassination news did not interrupt the training, but there was a lot of silence on their part because he created the Green Berets and endorsed the special forces. (01:27:08) Vietnam War: (01:28:00)  Went in as Special Ops and performed cross-border operations o Discusses exactly what these entailed (01:28:33) o Was not operating under uniform, but flied a lot of helicopters  Stayed at arm’s length so that they could not be associated with any war-crimes the South Vietnamese committed with the information Special Forces provided to them  They did none of the recruiting, the recruits were sent to them o Spent a year in Vietnam with that program. (01:35:10) o Went home to the United States  Returned to Vietnam in 1969 o To advise a Vietnamese rifle squad o PRU was a unit similar to what he did in Laos, and was recommended to join, so he did (01:36:45) o Trained guerrillas; did not go on all of the operations with the guerillas.  Describes the people he helped train (01:42:30) o Shared some time with the people, got to know them a little o The soldiers were very well trained, some used to serve the North Vietnamese  Shares a story about some of the soldiers (01:44:28)  Between his two tours, Schrader went to Iran and spent time advising the Michigan National Guard o Schrader remembers the trouble made about him being in the military while being in Grand Rapids. o Was in Michigan for about a year. o Describes his casualty reporting duties while in Michigan  Talks about the progress and balance of power while he was in Vietnam (01:52:11) �o Talks about Vietnam in relation to the current Afghanistan and Iraq war.\  Interview ends (01:58:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchraderW Title A name given to the resource Schrader, William (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schrader, William Description An account of the resource William Schrader was born in Alpena, Michigan on October 19, 1929. He entered the Army on July 31, 1948, and served in Germany near the end of World War II. After WWII, Schrader went to Korea and served in the Korean War. After Korea, Schrader switched from Infantry to Airborne. After joining the Airborne, Schrader married and he and his wife went back to Germany. Schrader spent 113 days in Lebanon during the Lebanese Crisis, and afterwards, went back to the United States and joined the Special Forces, eventually becoming a Green Beret. In 1962, Schrader left and trained guerillas in both Laos and Iran before going to Vietnam in 1965. Schrader left Vietnam and served in the United States for several years before returning to Vietnam in 1969, where he again trained Vietnamese forces. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7a2658fb120342747ad3e3ed7deffcda.mp4 edc5beb069dcef6dd44acae69310c600 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/36da9eb6ccb1c793b389a1103cb7a3a8.pdf e1a6a662a1d4ca8ce5cebf1cd74be42f PDF Text Text Robert Schowers (36:23) (00:05) Background Information • Robert was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1927 • His father was a policeman and was killed in the line of duty in 1941 • He first heard about Pearl Harbor on the radio • Robert went into the Merchant Marines when he was 16 in March of 1944 (2:45) Training • He first went to Sheepshead Bay for boot camp and passed the test to be a radio operator • Robert was then sent to Hoffman Island • He learned code and typing • They could go to New York on the weekends • He still had to do physical training and marching • Robert met his wife on one of the weekends • He received a 2nd class telegraph license, a 1st class telephone license, and a ham radio license (9:34) Transport Ships • Robert went to the union and was assigned on a T2 tanker ship to England • The basic salary was about 130 dollars a month with extra pay for being in England • They went to Liverpool and didn’t really know what was going on with the war because the only communication they had was listening to the radio • When they went to shore there were blackouts • After 2 trips to Europe and 2.5 months, got on an oil tanker headed for Aruba • They went through the Panama Canal and to New Hebrides, the Philippines, and Subic Bay • The ship stayed at Subic Bay for 1.5 months to unload fuel to other ships • They went to Manila and a Navy camp in the Philippines �• Manila was bombed out and poor • Robert and a friend got off in Panama City and got on an Army ship called the Seatrain Texas • They sailed to the Mediterranean Sea to pick up locomotives from Oran, Marseilles, and Naples (19:45) Army • Robert received a draft notice so he thought it would be best to enlist in the Army because it would only be for 2 years • He got measles and shortly after that he got pneumonia • When he was better he got married in Anniston, Alabama • They made him a private first class and he became a clerk • He thought it was boring being a clerk so he requested to be transferred • Robert was sent to Santa Fe, New Mexico • He helped write training manuals and was in the band for marching and dancing (27:14) Discharge • After being discharged he went to work for the University of California in New Mexico as an electronic technician • He went to the University of New Mexico and graduated in 1969 • Timothy was the project leader for a photo optical group • One of their jobs was to design telescopes • He flew out of Las Vegas to go do tests • The hours were long, but he liked it and stayed there for 14 years • Timothy then did some graduate work in Wisconsin and then received a job at Sandia • He was with the Military Liaison and went all over the world to fix equipment • At 60 he retired in Albuquerque, New Mexico �• Then in 1999 he moved to Los Vegas, Nevada � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchowersR Title A name given to the resource Schowers, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schowers, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Schowers was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1927. Robert joined the Merchant Marines when he was 16 and passed the test to become a radio operator. He trained at Hoffman Island and received his 2nd class telegraph license, 1st class telephone license, and a Ham radio license. Robert was assigned to a T2 tanker and made 2 trips to Europe during the war. He then got on another tanker and fueled ships at Subic Bay. On his 3rd ship, the Seatrain Texas, he went to Oran, Marseilles, and Naples to pick up locomotives. When he returned he joined the Army for 2 years during the Korean War. He was stationed in Santa Fe, New Mexico and wrote technical manuals. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Merchant mariner Merchant marine--United States Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a87e701f50fe75fc743bcf0d84c73bb.mp4 f8250560ccd16a526ea5ba44847776f4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b987a8e505602ebe7b1d14dd20e5405b.pdf 169b0154bdee38812d9046cd02df02e7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran's History Project World War II – Pacific Theater Robert Scholz Total Time (01:19:57) Introduction (00:00:08)  Robert was born January 16th, 1918 in Quincy, Illinois (00:00:22)  His father owned a grocery store and his mother was a nurse (00:01:27) ◦ Robert worked in the Navy Department as an a offset printer in Washington D.C.(00:03:59) ◦ Prior to the attacks on Pearl Harbor, he mentions his work was very busy and filled with young people (00:04:55) ◦ Robert was having a late Thanksgiving dinner with friends when he found out that Pearl Harbor had been bombed (00:07:00) ▪ He was drafted after Pearl Harbor happened and ended up at Camp Grant in Illinois; from there he went to Ft. Leonard Wood for basic training (00:09:16) Basic Training (00:09:16)  Robert and the group he trained with stayed in barracks at Ft. Leonard Wood; they had a corporal and sergeant assigned to each barracks (00:10:21)  He mentions that the men in charge would do everything to make you miserable like run in the rain without boots or coats but overall it wasn't too bad (00:10:53) ◦ There was an incident where the men had to dig two man foxholes and have a tank run over it which was pretty scary for him; two men were buried alive during this exercise and wound up dead (00:13:48) ◦ Basic training lasted over six weeks; he then trained to be a combat engineer (00:16:38) ◦ He did bridge construction and was taught how to use explosives during engineer training (00:16:58) ▪ Robert's wife and son came down and visited Ft. Leonard Wood once when his son was four months old (00:18:40) World War II – Pacific Theater (00:19:13)  Robert and the other men left from Ft. Leonard Wood on a train to Camp Stoneman in California to a replacement depot(00:20:29)  From Camp Stoneman he left via a ship and was put on guard duty (00:22:16)  They stopped for refueling after about two weeks at New Hebrides; from there they went to New Caledonia off the coast of Australia (00:23:03)  They arrived in Leyte in the Philippines and as they were jumping overboard into the landing craft, an alarm sounded and Robert was told they were being bombed (00:27:18) ◦ As they got to the other side of the island and Robert met a civilian couple who used hemp to make everything because the Japanese took all of their clothing (00:29:49) ◦ There wasn't much fighting going on as they were crossing the island of Leyte (00:31:05) ▪ The geography was mostly swamps and Robert recalled it being terrible; they had to chop down trees to make roads (00:31:30) ▪ Robert was assigned to the 13th Engineer Battalion of the 7th Infantry Division as a combat engineer (00:33:14) �  This unit was assigned to be the first assault unit at Okinawa, Japan; just before they hit the beach- everything went silent and arrived on the beach to find hardly any opposition at first (00:36:17) Robert remembers a loud explosion as he was trying to sleep in a foxhole as it was his first experience with a Kamikaze attack (00:37:38) ◦ Part of their duty was to fix bridges and cover up roads to keep them open as Robert remembers and jokes the protection of the equipment, such as bulldozers, were more important than the men (00:40:44) ◦ He remembers quite frequently that his brakes would go out in his vehicle; they had no lights for protection and drove in the mountains as he had to keep down shifting to brake on time (00:42:52) ▪ The unit was in water most of the time from the constant rain and Robert always wonders why he never got sick or a cold (00:43:58) ▪ Robert was able to write home quite a bit about the specifics of what was going on in Japan (00:44:56)  After the campaign was over, Robert remembers sleeping in a cot for the first time in months (00:47:43)  Robert never really encountered any Japanese prisoners or any of the Japanese civilians (00:48:42) ◦ After the island was secured they didn't really experience anymore Kamikaze attacks (00:50:03) ◦ Robert and his unit headed to Korea after the island of Okinawa was secured; they took a ship and landed at Inchon in Korea (00:51:42) ◦ They did not see much of the Japanese while they were in Korea; the United States took over the Japanese barracks (00:54:03) ◦ He remembers the Koreans being hospitable towards him as he went out to dinner with a family (00:55:33) ▪ Robert remembers seeing Russians while in Korea; he went to the 32nd parallel with a few other men and the Russians saluted them and wanted to have drinks with them (00:58:15) ▪ They were in Korea for a few months til about Christmas time after arriving in August (00:59:33) Back to the United States (01:01:30)  Robert was discharged at the Jefferson Barracks Military Post; from there his wife met him in St. Louis, Missouri (01:02:42)  Robert and his family decided to move to Grand Rapids, Michigan; they stayed with a couple as their apartment wasn't quite ready yet (01:04:41) ◦ He worked for a company that made fly paper; the army offered up help to adjust to civilian life and Robert remembers it being a mistake that he didn't take it at the time as he had a tough time adjusting to civilian life again (01:06:14) ◦ Robert's second child was a boy with special needs, he had cerebral palsy; a doctor talked to Robert and his wife to plan for another child to help the oldest sibling get through the tough time of having a special needs sibling- Robert had two more sons after that (01:09:44) ▪ He moved around to different jobs; he worked in a lab as a quality control manager and went to night school as well (01:12:49) ▪ After some schooling, Robert became a plant manager and went to different companies �in different locations- he enjoyed his work to the fullest (01:15:21)  The Army taught him how to work with people and that's the biggest thing he learned while he served (01:16:03) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ScholzR1586V Title A name given to the resource Scholz, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2014 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Scholz, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Scholz was born in 1918 in Quincy Illinois. Before Pearl Harbor he worked as a civilian for the Navy as an offset printer in Washington D.C. He was drafted after Pearl Harbor happened and did his basic and job training at Ft. Leonard Wood in Missouri. Robert became a combat engineer in the 13th Engineer Battalion of the 7th Infantry Division. Robert and his unit left on a train to Camp Stoneman in California and from there they departed to New Hebrides via ship for refueling. From there they went to New Caledonia and finally arrived at Leyte, Philippines. His unit later took part in the initial landings on Okinawa, and after the war went to Korea before returning home. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-03-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d0d8ee3d9904b28748233c7db844f076.mp4 2631edce9e3b2cdbeead0322468d7f38 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/806546b6d32ce607ee08381dfd6a3ccd.pdf 452bf7b1deacd6f8db346a215b772088 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee: Louis Schmidt Length of Interview: 00:57:40 Background                    He was born in Allegan County, in Door, Michigan. He was born November 20, 1926. His family worked on a farm. They raised pickles, potatoes, corn and anything that they could. It was a hard time. His father had this thrashing machine. It was slow moving and he would work until the snow fell trying to get things done. He got on WPA, it did not pay so well. He got the job right in Dorr. They also raised pigs. His stepfather would bring them home lard and pork sandwiches. He loved his stepfather more than his own father. If it wasn’t for his mother, his first father would have beaten them to death. He would get blood poisoning and die at the age of 29. He was too stubborn to go to the hospital until it was too late. His mother raised the kids, 140 acres and 72 heads of cattle. She did a great job. She would later remarry to his stepfather, who was a wonderful guy. He would go to Sycamore School. The school had 29 students. Since then it has been rebuilt. He really liked his last teacher. When he would go get water, his teacher’s boyfriend would come around and she would send him inside to check on the class. It took them a while, but the kids finally caught on to what was happening. He would go to school until 8th Grade. He finished around 13 or 14, and when he was 16 he wanted to join the military when he was 16, but he had to be 17 to join. He would also lack a birth certificate. There were 13 kids in his family and 17 kids in a neighbor’s family. They would all just take care of themselves. The war had started by then, in 1941. He was too young to join at the time. Instead, when he was 14, he would get a job a local store. His mother had to make a certificate stating that he was 14 so he could work there. He would work there for 3 years. While he was working there he would get paid 48 cents an hour. Then, that was a lot of money. When he got his first check he made $2. He ended up going to the office because he thought they overpaid him. They had not. He would then start working there more and still he thought they overpaid him. When he came in the next time, they threatened to fire him if he kept coming back in. When he turned 17, he would enlist into the Navy. The people at the store told him that he would not have a job when he got back. He did not care. He picked the Navy so he had a clean bed to sleep in, instead of a fox hole. He didn’t like ships, because he hated the water. He had never learned how to swim. He took his training at Great Lakes, in Chicago, Illinois. Training (7:50) �              He had 13 weeks of basic training and spent much of the time learning to identify different planes. It was fast paced and they had to learn quickly. Learning to swim was part of the Navy rules. They could not keep him in unless he learned how to swim. He would wait until he was 12 weeks in before even attempting to learn to swim. He would go to the recreation pool and attempt to learn to swim. His superior would stand over him all the time and tell him to quit crying. He was upset because he thought he would not be allowed to go home with his company and he really wanted to stay with them. So, to show this guy what he could do, he dived into the pool. He did not come up. Instead his superior saved him with a hook. He would pass this test for his efforts in trying to learn. He was so happy he could have kissed the man. To this day, he does not know how to swim. While he was there, he really had to learn “Sir!” While he was getting processed in Detroit, they were really nice. He didn’t have to call any of them “Sir.” When he got on the train to go to Chicago, things were very different. But he learned quickly. While he was putting his 13 weeks in at basic, he only made one mistake. When he was dressing himself, he had to fold the crease in his pants a certain way. One morning he woke up late and did not pay attention. He would have to run around the compound for an hour, holding his rifle over his head for punishment. He thought it would be easy, but he could hardly keep his arms up after that. From then on, he learned how to dress properly. He would also be warned for when he was supposed to come to attention. You were supposed to have your feet close together, so you can click your heels. His superior wanted to hear that click ring in his ears. His job there was to keep the fire going with gravel-sized coal pieces. He thought he was alone, but he was wrong. He clicked those heels together and that officer was not satisfied. He threatened him with running around with the rifle over his head again. He learned very quickly. They did not get to graduate on time because of poor behavior. They were watching some Navy WAVES graduate from basic and they whistled at them. Their company was held for one week. After they graduated, he got a 14 day leave home. He was then shipped to San Francisco. Active Duty (14:00)   They stayed in San Francisco for a couple of weeks while they waited for a ship to take them over. They finally found a carrier to take them to where they needed. It was the Prince Williams. �  He wasn’t even out of the San Francisco area when they got a submarine scare. He did not know if it was Japanese or Russian, but he heard the siren go off and a red light come on and all the soldiers had to go topside. They would stay there all night. The next morning, they would take off. The trip would take 29 days to Brisbane, Australia. The food was not that good. Australia (15:20)                When they got there they would go to a AATC, Anti-Aircraft Training Center. They would train with 3-inch twin 40’s. They would train by shooting on at a sleeve on the back of an airplane. The man in charge told them to shoot the tail off if they would want to. That sleeve got tore up, only the cable holding the sleeve was left. There was a general on base, no one knew he was as he was dressed as one, who had heard about this. He would have the man in charged called down for a talk. The man never came back. Schmidt thinks he was court martialed. Going back to the crossing, he was sick the whole way across. He remembers on another ship, he could not use the bathrooms on the ship. So the guys had to squat over the side of the ship and let it fly. They were not given any paper to clean themselves with, but the waves were so big they came up and washed them off anyway. He also remembers that he was given a small amount of rations that were supposed to last him 14 days for the trip. He and some others ate it the first night and would take food from other people in order to eat. One guy would trip the man and the other would take his tray of food. And when they got the food it was grilled chicken with the feathers still on it. Since they would not allow him and the others to use any of their stuff, they did not wash, shave, brush their teeth and they were starving. When they got to Brisbane, the first thing they wanted was food. Their superior at Brisbane asked them what had happened. They told him. He even told the man that on Christmas, one of the ensigns had thrown them some beer, but when it hit the floor there was no beer left. He said they had about committed mutiny. The officer told them not to tell anyone back home about what had happened. It would be the first thing Schmidt told his family. He would stay at Brisbane for 12 months. While he was there, he was running with an officer on a beach. Suddenly his back went out down low, by his hips. He was taken to a hospital to see what was wrong, but he never did find out. Even to this day, he still doesn’t know. While he was in the hospital, he had to make a choice. He could both go on an operation and possibly become a cripple or he could stay at the hospital. He would decide to stay. He thinks he made the right decision, because today he can feel whatever it was happen in his back now. (22:00) He would be in the hospital for another couple of weeks and then sent him back to the base. While he was in Brisbane, his main job was gate watch. They had a perimeter that he would have to walk around at night, to keep people from sneaking in. �                There was a lieutenant commander there who would keep him on his toes. If you did not salute him, he would find out why soon enough. While he was on gate duty, there would be women who would come to the gate, but couldn’t get in. Sometimes you would stick your hand through, though not all the way, as the holes weren’t big enough, just so you could hold their finger. He knows there was a lot of hanky-panky going on down there. If someone ever got caught, they would have been court martialed. He really liked it there. They would stay there for a year and a half and would then move to the Philippines. While he was in Australia, whenever he had liberty, he would go to Brisbane. While he was there, the Red Cross would give the soldiers a place to stay and food to eat. It was first come, first serve. He had a fun time over there. The beer was really strong, as he was only 17 when he got over there. He got back to base and he had stayed up all night. When he got in the shower, he was there for 6 hours because he passed out. If his mother would have seen him, she would have disowned him. The native Australians did not like the American military there. One of the American soldiers was with the wife of an Australian soldier who was fighting in New Guinea. When he came home, he found out and he and some buddies of his got on an elevator with the American and beat him. By the time the soldier got to the hospital, he had no teeth left. The Australians would also write letters to the Navy office, telling the American soldiers to take care of the kids who they happen to have while over there. There was a lady that he met who would only go with sailors, not marines, army or anything else. He really wanted to take her home, but she wouldn’t. She was a really good looking. His mother said he was lucky he didn’t bring her home, or she would have kicked them both out. She always told him that if he ever got a woman pregnant, he would have to make his nest right there to take care of her and the child. Coming from a home of 13 children, he understood. The one thing he did not like about the Navy was that he could not swim. He had a belt that had an inflatable tube on it and he would wear it everywhere. He would wear it to church, while he slept, when he went into town. He never knew what was going to happen. One day and officer told him not to wear it everywhere like he did. He told the officer he couldn’t swim. That was a mistake. The officer told him that he was going to learn how to swim before he left for home. Schmidt still does not know how to swim. He’s an ice fisher and has fallen through 10 times, once even taking the truck with him. It’s a miracle that he is alive today. Manus Island (27:00)  Although he spent most of his time in Australia, he would also travel around a lot, transporting to different bases. Manus Island would be the main stop for traveling soldiers.  Although he was a plumber, 3rd class, but he drove truck all the time. �    One time when he was driving, he was pulled over by the shore patrol. Some of the soldiers he picked up were sitting with their legs over the tail gate, and others yet were on top. The shore patrol said that he could get court martialed for letting those soldiers sit on the tailgate. If someone ran into him, their legs would be ripped right off. Instead, he was given a ticket and a warning. It was strange that there was no problem with the soldiers on top. While he was on Manus, the only thing that was going on was he was transporting soldiers from the docks to about 10 miles in, and when they were done at the shooting line, he would transport the soldiers back. He and some friends made it into a race. After he went to Manus, he would spend some time in the Philippines, and that was a whole different story. The Philippines (29:50)    He got there and he was waiting for orders to go down to the Indian Ocean for an invasion. It was the closest he had ever got to combat. When he heard the news about joining the invasion, he was really bummed. He remembers it was a Sunday and they were all packed, and then they got the news that the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. They were then ordered to get their gear off the ship because they were going home. Going Home and Reminiscing (31:00)         On the way home, they had a pool going about what time the anchor would drop in San Francisco. There was about $300 in that pool. When they got there, he was summoned to the captain’s quarters. He thought that he was in trouble or that they were going to try to get him to sign on again, which they eventually did. When he got to the captain’s quarters he discovered that he had actually won the pool for guessing the correct time the anchor was dropped. He told them to keep the money until he got on land. He was afraid that if he had kept in in his locker someone would steal it. He had won $310. He got a 34 day leave. Afterwards he was called back to Chicago Great Lakes, where he was discharged. He had to dress up in a suit and when he got his discharge medal, he was saluted. He did not know why, as he was only a 3rd classman. He didn’t know, so he just saluted back and went on his way. Back to when he was in the Philippines, he was at a base. There were huts put up, and they would stay there, until they were needed. They were more or less just getting ready to go out to the China Sea. When the bomb went off, the plans would change completely from there. He did not travel at all and did not see any of the local population. The Japanese would bomb the heck out of that place and there was a lot to take care of there. When they left, they would leave behind all the vehicles because they were too expensive to ship back over. Instead, they would place the vehicles in a 40 acre slot and torched them. �             He tried to take some pictures to bring home, but they had checked his camera and took the film out of it. He would have liked to show some of those pictures to the President to show him where all of the tax money was going. He did not think anyone would believe him since he didn’t have any pictures He said the place looked like a war zone. He also remembers a group of Marines torched a Philippine town without any warnings to the people there. He thought that was a real dirty thing to do, especially since the Filipinos had worked for the American soldiers. They were paid in rice, which the people loved. Everything there was outside. Eventually they built a two-seat outhouse and everyone would share it, both the locals and the soldiers. There was a huge problem with STD’s. If a soldier got or gave an STD they would have to pay a $300 fine and be put in the hospital for 30 days to be cured. After they got out of jail, they would go right back to it. He said the line for STD’s at the hospital was 10 miles long. Everything was cleared up eventually. He really learned a lot when he joined the Navy. He especially learned how to do all different kinds of knots. He was very sick of seeing knots, but they come in very handy for him at home. Of the different ships that he rode on, the LCI. The best, in his opinion, was the carrier. Once he was on an LST, a flat, long ship, whose end comes down so they can get onto the beach. The end had snapped of while they were at sea, and he thought they were going to drown. They ended up closing off the hatches before taking on too much water and they made it to shore. When he went back to the states, he took a cargo ship back, so they could feed everyone on there. There were about 700 people on that ship. They made pretty good time going back compared to the trip there. He was sick all the time. But now they gave him a pill that would help him with it and the also put something behind his ear too. He would eventually get used to the ship after being on land for almost 13 months. It seemed like the weather down there was always windy. You could see these huge whales come up right next to the ship. It seemed like there was no end to them. He would also see these flying fish that had wings on them. They would go for 50-100 feet before going back into the water. Post Duty (43:10)    Once he was out of the Navy he tried to find a job. He tried to go back to the store, but they did not let him have it back. He ended up going to a union that would help him get his job back. By then, he was making $2-$4 and hour He would work there for about 4 months, when he found out about another job opening working for a refrigerator company. He applied for the job and the man told him that he needed to get a pair of steel-toed boots and he could start that afternoon. �                  He ended up getting them the next day but did not have seniority to stay there. So he would work there for 30 days as a temp and if he was a good worker they would let him keep his job. He ended up moving from one shift to the 11-7 shift. He didn’t like what he was doing and often felt himself nodding off. One guy told him to stick his head in the freezer, which would wake him up. He was freezing! They had asked him to stay and extra 4 hours and he did now that he was awake. On the way home however he was blasting the heat and he was falling asleep. Then the guy at the store tried to offer him daytime hours. The union didn’t like that and told him that he did not have seniority. What he really wanted was the hi-low job, which the guy who was running that had been there for 5 years. He was barely there two months. He would eventually get the hi-low job 10 years later. He really enjoyed that. He was working at the job for 25 years, when one day, he got into it with his boss. She was mad at him because he wouldn’t look at her when she was speaking to him. Instead, he was always looking up at the ceiling because it was always full of pigeons. Well, he got snotty with her and she fired him. He would work with the Union and his supervisor to try to get his job back, and he did. He said it was a beautiful place to work and he put 31 years into it. His time in the Navy definitely changed him. (49:00) He went in as a boy and came out as a man. While he was there, they tried to get him to resign, but he didn’t take their offer. He said that the discipline he got kept him out of trouble. He didn’t get into fights and was really good. He remembers a time when they were on an island and he and another guy thought they heard someone on the island. They raised the alarm and the Navy that was there came running out, guns at the ready. Everyone went around trying to put all the lights and an officer gave him a Thompson Sub gun and he accidentally discharged 30 rounds into a hut where the American soldiers were staying. Luckily, no one was in there. He should have been court martialled and discharged but he wasn’t. He had a lieutenant felt badly and knew it was an accident, so he was assigned to do other work for what happened. Turns out the noise that started all this was coconuts falling from their trees. He feels he had it pretty easy in the Navy. The only time he made a mistake and he froze on the trigger. He never could stand the ships, but he’d like to go back on a ship to visit. He wishes that he would have stayed in the reserves. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchmidtL Title A name given to the resource Schmidt, Louis (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schmidt, Louis Description An account of the resource Louis Schmidt served in the Navy during World War II. He was sent to Australia after basic training and trained as an anti-aircraft gunner, but served mostly in support units. He served for about a year in Australia, and then went to Manus Island and to the Philippines. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-09-07 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d5a257cd911c5addeec3f4e46dc8e77.mp4 94190aae19952ad93b2a902db4cb96fe https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/858136ff0a95df5f9805c821ac08e759.pdf 8e2dec30823b7dc96c933911aea116ea PDF Text Text Eugene Schmidt (1:01:09) (00:04) Background Information • Eugene was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1918 • His father was in plumbing and heating • He graduated from Catholic Central High in 1936 • After graduation Eugene worked at a grocery store and was a book keeper for his uncle • Eugene signed up for the National Guard in 1935 • He was assigned to the wire section and worked on telecommunications • They had drills once a week and they used WWI rifles • He had summer camp at Camp Grayling • He was federalized on October 15, 1940 (5:17) Training • Eugene was sent to a camp in Louisiana by train • They did a lot of hiking and there was a lot of mud • The mosquitoes were bad and they had to use netting on their tents • In September1941Eugene’s enlistment was extended indefinitely • He heard about Pearl Harbor on the radio while living off the camp • His battalion was moved to Georgia and then to Fort Devens, Massachusetts • They were told they were going to ship off to England, but at the last minute they were sent to California on a train (16:40) Deployment • They crossed the Pacific on a converted luxury liner • The weather was good, but some people still got seasick • It took a long time to get to Australia because they had to go east of New Zealand and then to the southern part of Australia to avoid U-Boats �• They landed at Port Adelaide, Australia • They had to eat a lot of mutton when they first got there • They later moved to Camp Cable in Brisbane and then traveled up the coast in Queensland • He got along well with the Australians (24:45) New Guinea • They left Australia and went to Port Moresby in southern New Guinea • On the trip over they hit a storm and some fuel barrels broke loose so Eugene had to help secure them but, one of the barrels hit his knee and bent it backwards • Because of his injury Eugene had to stay in the rear echelon instead of going over the Owen Stanley Range with the rest of his battalion because of his injury • Moresby was small and its population was mostly women, children and elderly people (29:55) Back to Australia • On January 15 his division was relieved from Buna and sent back to Australia • They went back to Camp Cable for rehab and to reequip • They went down to Newcastle for Amphibious Assault Training • His battalion lost a lot of men and some were sick with Malaria and Jungle Rot • They were there until May and then went to Saidor (34:18) Saidor, New Guinea • Eugene was put in charge of a squad and went on an amphibious assault • He then returned to his HQ company • The jungle wasn’t pleasant • He learned from his experienced friends that he needed to use a machete at times to get through it and to watch out for the people around him • He was a Supply Sergeant when supplies came in • Eugene felt that one job wasn’t really any different than another, just with different duties �• The Japanese were trying to get out of New Guinea at the time he was there (45:20) Aitape, New Guinea • The second amphibious assault was on Aitape • They had to cross two rivers and it was very difficult • Australian engineers were trying to build a bridge, but they were taking too long so the Americans crossed with ropes tied to the other side • They didn’t see many Japanese soldiers (50:42) Returning Home • He went to Finschaefen for 3 weeks • Eugene was assigned to a tent with a friend that had joined the Army with • They traveled back to the US together in October of 1944 • When he got back he moved around some and then was assigned to be an MP in Detroit, Michigan • He didn’t do much and they didn’t arrest anyone with overseas stripes • He was discharged at Fort Sheridan in July of 1945 (55:32) After Discharge • Eugene worked at a service station, at Fisher Body as a maintenance welder, sold life insurance, and then went to work for Kerr Glass selling fruit jars • He retired from Kerr when he was 60 years old • The military gave him a better understanding of how to get along with people � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchmidtE Title A name given to the resource Schmidt, Eugene (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schmidt, Eugene Description An account of the resource Eugene Schmidt was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1918. He joined the National Guard during high school and was federalized on October 15, 1940. Eugene was assigned to a Head Quarters Company and he was deployed to Australia. Then he was sent to New Guinea and was injured by a loose fuel barrel on the way over. He had to stay in the rear while his company went to Buna and after they were done he met up with them in Australia for amphibious assault training. They went on 2 assaults in New Guinea at Saidor and Aitape. In October of 1944 he was sent back to the US and was assigned to be a MP in Detroit, Michigan. Eugene was discharged in July of 1945. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-07-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9952be6d25ded7e75180bb2205151ccb.mp4 5bff361b0ec7b0b4da0d0e81df9411dd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7f8cef76f746b91a63c596f06bf0ca27.pdf 433d0bbacb376f43e60549f1e1cd64fe PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Cold War/Persian Gulf Era James Schmehil 41:58 Introduction (00:11)          James was born on February 25, 1963 in Virginia. Growing up, his father worked as an electronics technician working on the equipment used in the production of television shows. His mother is an accountant and owns her own business. James has always wanted to be a pilot, and he planned from a young age of joining the Air Force and attending the Air Force Academy. His father was also in the Air Force and it was his influence, along with James’ uncles who also served in the Air Force. (02:21) The largest influence in his decision to join however was his wanting to fly. The astronaut program is something that every aviator aspires too, but his immediate goal was to become a pilot. After high school, he joined the Air Force, but decided not to attend college first. He enlisted in July 1981 and he went to basic training in October 1981. In between, he performed odd jobs to earn extra money before he left. (04:17) Air Force Training and Enlisted Service (04:20)          Basic training was difficult and challenging but not what he thought it would be. It was not as physical as Army or Marine Corps basic training. The focus of their training was not hand-to-hand combat. The first night he was at basic training, they had been bussed on base in the middle of the night and were called ‘Rainbows’ because they did not yet have their uniforms. He was 18 years old when he went in the service. When they first met their TI (Training Instructor) he put great fear into all the men there. (06:35) Their training also had an academic element that put emphasis on following rules and directions. James was taught a certain way to fold his clothes and how to keep them in his locker, they were inspected to make sure it was exactly right. He finished basic training in the beginning of December and went on to Sheppard Air Force Base in Wichita Falls, Texas and began schooling to be a missile crew member. (08:39) From December to April 30, he was in Tech School, which consisted of him being a Missile Systems Analyst Technician. He learned how to manage the launch sequence for the Titan 2 Missile. The Titan 2 Missile is an ICBM (Intercontinental Ballistic Missile). �        The crew for this missile system consisted of four men, two enlisted and two officers (commander and deputy commander). James handled the launch sequence and the guidance computer. He would also back up the commander in the decoding of the messages that would come from the launch control center. (10:17) The coding was simple, but cryptic and top secret, which required him to have a top secret security clearance. He did that for two years. Missile crew tours were for 24 hours. At 7am they had a daily briefing that told the men what was happening around the world and the current threats they may have. They would then drive forty five minutes to an hour out to the site. He was stationed at Little Rock Air Force Base with the 374th Ballistic Missile Squadron; James arrived at that post in 1982. He would be on site at 8am, and they would relieve the on duty team and perform system checks and maintenance operations. After a year of being there, James applied for the United States Air Force Preparatory School and was accepted. He started school in July 1983. The application process was much like a college application; he was required to submit his high school transcript, SAT and ACT test scores. (12:50) The purpose of this school is to prepare candidates for the Air Force Academy. They had high emphasis on math, science and english. James stayed there for one year and graduated in 1984. A month later he entered the Air Force Academy as a freshman. James graduated with a degree in physics. He participated in the Soaring gliding program and the parachute program and earned his jump wings. He also had survival training. He graduated in 1988. At that point, he stayed in Colorado Springs until his pilot training slot opened up, which he began in October 1988. Pilot Training and Officer Service (14:25)          After beginning his pilot training in October 1988, he finished a year later and was selected to be an instructor for the T-37. He went to the training school in San Antonio, Texas from 1989 to 1990. In 1992, James was sent to Barksdale Air Force Base and continued his service as a flight instructor as part of the ACE Program (Accelerated Copilot Enrichment). At this school, he worked with co-pilots and trained them how to support their pilot and to give them hands on experience as a full pilot. Once they were qualified, they would allow co-pilots to fly across country on they own. (16:12) In 1995, James was selected to join the C-130 program and was sent back to Little Rock Air Force Base. He was stationed at Moody Air Force Base in Valdosta, Georgia. James flew many missions in the C-130 which consisted of dropping paratroopers, dropping cargo, delivering cargo and carrying people. A C-130 can land on a landing strip only 3,000 feet long, which is about a half-mile. (18:23) In 1996, James was deployed to the Middle East and flew missions out of Muscat, Oman. He was there for about a month before transferring to Saudi Arabia. �               He flew out of Al Kars, which was a new base in the city of Dhahran. The United States contingents were staying in condo like buildings there and a month before James arrived they were bombed and many Americans were killed. When James arrived, they were staying at Al Kars and living in tents. Since the base was so new, they did not have the facilities that a normal base would have. They did have air conditioning and a chow hall. (20:47) He was given a ten minute phone call home each week. When he left home, he had a three year old child and a five month old baby. Saudi Arabia is sandy and it gets everywhere and in everything. They had to replace computers every few months because the sand would cause them to fail. (22:23) Flying there was nice; they did a lot of missions around the Arabian Peninsula and up and down the coast close to Yemen. They resupplied the troops that were also stationed around. While there, he learned that camels come in different colors. He was flying a low level mission at 500 feet and he had canceled his IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) and used Visual Flight Rules. They saw some black, white and brown camels. In the distance they saw a tent in the middle of no where. Parked outside the tent were a stretch limo and other beautiful cars. They quickly got out of there because they did not want to get involved with whatever they were doing out there. (24:41) James spent Christmas in country and returned home in January. On his way home they flew through England and Iceland. While flying out of Iceland, they flew into the sunset and the sun did not move because they were flying high enough and kept up with the rotation of the Earth. Once they made their descent towards St. Johns, Canada the sun dropped instantly. They landed in Boston and stayed the night before returning home to Moody Air Force Base. (26:48) When he got home, his five month old was now nine months old and she did not know him. He spent a total of four months overseas on that deployment. In Saudi Arabia, James learned that his squadron, the 52nd Air Lift was closing, so he had to start searching for a new job. He chose to go back to the T-37 training school in San Antonio, Texas. He became an instructor that taught pilots how to become instructors. (28:43) After being there for several years, he was selected to be part of the initial cadre in the T6 program, which was the joint trainer for the U.S. Navy, Air Force and the Canadian Air Force. It replaced the Air Force’s T-37, the Navy’s T-34, and the Tutor for the Canadian Air Force. James was stationed in Wichita, Kansas at the Beach Aircraft Company. They wrote all the regulations, procedures and rules that were necessary to form training programs with the T-6. He stayed with the program for a couple years and was successful in creating an effective training program for the new flight crews. After that he took a one year remote assignment from 2001-2002 in Honduras, and served with Joint Task Force Bravo, in Soto Cano Air Force Base which was about an hour outside Tegucigalpa, the capital of Honduras. (30:35) His job there was to serve as the director of operations (second in command) for the squadron and was basically the air field manager. His duties involved running the weather operations, the civil engineering support, the refueling operations and all the �    support people worked together to complete their mission. He also coordinated with the United States Army and the Honduran Air Force. They supported the anti-drug operations that were going on in the area. (32:30) While there, he lived in a wooden hooch with air conditioning but no running water or bathroom. He had a golf cart as his vehicle. After his year there, he went back to San Antonio and returned to the T-6 training school and again acted as an instructor. James retired from the Air Force in 2005 after serving for twenty four years. (34:48) Thinking Back (35:02)     James remembers back in the Persian Gulf War in the early 90s. He was an instructor at Del Rio, Texas. He had mixed feelings about the war, because he wanted to be out flying missions and serving his country overseas instead of staying in the United States and training others to fly. He felt like he should have been doing more. The best thing that the Air Force taught him was teamwork. Everyone has their job and when everyone makes their contribution to the bigger picture everyone wins. No one job is not important. (37:35) He also strongly supported the defense of the Constitution and saluting the American Flag. It gives new meaning to certain things. (39:17) The biggest sacrifice that he had to make was having to leave his family during his Middle Eastern tour and his year in Honduras. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchmehilJ1518V Title A name given to the resource Schmehil, James (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schmehil, James Description An account of the resource James was born on February 25, 1963 in Virginia and grew up in an Air Force family. His father and his uncles all served in the Air Force, and when James graduated from high school, he too joined. He enlisted in July 1981 and left for basic training in October. After basic training, he became a Missile Systems Analyst Technician on the Titan 2 Missile system. After two years he applied for the United States Air Force Preparatory School and later attended the Air Force Academy. He graduated from the academy in 1988 with a degree in physics. James became a pilot and flew C-130s and also was a training instructor for the T-37 and the T-6 aircraft. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schmehil, Marie (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-29 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d12e7017bc67b6dfbc7d3472f3404455.mp4 5d498411e580ea6281796f5cc0e210c7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d8f6c3f82cff2901c034d1d61f1fa27.pdf 04815c16a8999d354497497ec37d665b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee: Cecilia Schlepers Length of Interview: 00:56:56 Background              Cecilia was born in Byron Center, Michigan. She is the daughter of Dutch immigrants who moved here after WWII. Her father was Johannes Martinus Schlepers. It is a German name, as his parents and grandparents were from Germany, which is quite close to the town where he was born and raised. He was born in 1911 and became part of the army in 1931. Her father’s family worked as farmers and owned a store. When he joined the army is was a national obligation. It was required that all firstborn boys join the service. He would serve for half a year in 1931, and was called up as reserve for 3 or 4 years following that. In August 1939, the soldiers began to mobilize. Despite the fact that the Netherlands were a neutral country, they saw what was happening around them and they needed to be ready, in case something happened. During the time in between his service, he worked at home on the farm and he also worked on created new land from water. It was a lot of shovel work and hard labor. But he didn’t mind it, as he loved to do that kind of labor. Her father was not married until after the war was over and he moved to America. As a boy, he followed the Roman Catholic religion and he would attend catholic school until 8th grade. After the war, he did a correspondence course, for a diploma for someone who works at the border, in an office. She has that diploma as well. He was always helping at home. At that time, it was during the Depression. They were careful not to make any mistakes that would lead them to bigger problems. Mostly they just lived off of their own produce. Her Mother (6:25)       Her mother was born in Friesland and was the 5th daughter in a family of 12 children. Her father was a farmer and they rented a farm. He was able to have hired hands for odds jobs around the farm. They had a more difficult time than her father did. One time, their entire cow herd developed hoof and mouth disease, and all of their animals had to be quarantined. They ended up selling what animals they could and killing the rest, losing the farm in the process. They ended up moving to another place near a canal. Her mother worked on the farm to prove herself, to show that she could do what the boys were supposed to do. She was always quite proud of herself for that. �                       She had a grade school education until 7th grade. Her mother loved reading. While they were in Friesland, they grew up with the Frisian language, so when she went to grade school, her mother had to learn Dutch as well. She loved that as well. She would also attend a choir class, which was part of the schooling there. Her mother would, for one class, win a reading contest, and as the prize, she was given the book “Robinson Crusoe” and it has been her favorite book ever since. (10:00) Living on the canals, her mother loved to ice skate. Her mother would participate in a speed skate contest, and would win against a famous speed skater. She shows her mother’s skates and how they worked. Eventually, her family needed money, so she was hired out to work for farmers around the area; she ended up working for awful people and she went home. After explaining things to her parents, they understood. And some time later, those same farmers sent a car to pick her up and bring her back. They were a lot nicer from then on. She would be there for a year and then she would go work for her aunt for a year. It was during this time that she realized that she had a calling for the vocational life. So she went home and talked to her parents about it and joined a convent in 1934. She was 19. It was hard to adjust to life there, but she wanted to make it work, so eventually she made it work. She would find her niche in the choir there and would eventually help direct the choir. She and a few of the other women would attend an Economics School and got her diploma; equivalent to a high school diploma. While she was at the convent, she would use a scythe to cut the grass on the convent and she was good at it. She would remain there for 6 years, when the war began. Eventually she would conclude that the convent was simply not for her. So she left for home to help her family on the farm. She would live as a companion with her aunt. Her sister would also live in the village and she would help her sister out as well. (20:10) Her grandparents became self-sufficient and would help out the townsfolk as well. Her brother would come and visit and bring a spindle, to spin wool for knitting and clothing. The Netherlands did not manufacture things anymore since the Nazis took over. She would work under the cover of night in order to not have what she made taken away by the Nazis. During this time, the Germans would round up people and have them go to the German labor camps or factories to work. So two of her younger brothers were in hiding, and so were some of the others from their town. They managed to stay hidden for the whole war. Her father’s brother did end up working in these camps. And when he got his weekend to go home, he decided that he did not want to go back. So he spent some time hiding, and he was eventually caught. He would spend the rest of the war in a Dutch prison. Her mother did not discuss the Germans much, only that they were very hated. �       You always had to be care of what you said and who you said it to because of collaboration with the Germans. She would listen to Queen Wilhelmina on the radio, who had escaped to London at the outbreak of the war. She would give broadcasts from London to let the people know what was going on. It was the only communication from the outside world at the time. (26:00) Having the radio was illegal in itself. One night German soldiers demanded some money from some livestock they sold. Her family would soon realize that they were neighbors dressed as German officers, demanding money. Her grandfather would give them some, but hid the rest in the barn. They would look for it but with no luck. Also at one point, her grandparents’ farm went up in flames, though her mother was not in town at the time. The grandparents would live with some neighbors and the farm was eventually rebuilt. The boys would have to live elsewhere for the time. After the war, one of the sons would take over the farm, which was in an area that was under German control until the end of the war. Her Father (31:30)              Going back to her father, he was called off to active duty in 1939. He would serve as a gunner in the infantry, stationed at Velsen, which was on a river. He would run a ferry there as part of his duties from August until May. On the early morning of May 10th, he and the others were surprised by all the planes flying overhead. He vividly remembers that because he was so surprised. Up to that point, they thought that they were good. But once they saw all those planes, they knew they were in trouble. He and the others there were told to surrender, while some distance south, there was fighting for 5 days. The general of the Dutch army would surrender after 5 days of fighting and her father would spend the rest of his time as a prisoner of war. They would stay in Assen, which is the capital of Drenthe. Her father did not talk about his time there a great deal. In fact, during her time in the Netherlands, many of the veterans did not want to talk about it. They look at it as a black mark on their past and they do not like talking about it so much. Because the Germans viewed the Dutch as little to no threat, many of the soldiers were allowed to go home right away. This would exempt him from being taken to the labor camps and factories. He would eventually make it home to do everything he could to help his family, neighbors and friends as much as he could. (36:05) He would spend the war bringing his brother, who was in hiding, food, clothes and other things. He would have trouble making sure that the Germans did not find out about what he was doing, or else he would get in a lot of trouble. �   Her father did not say much about what he thought about the Germans either. She only knew of a deep hatred that existed. Food was not a problem for her father’s family, so they shared with the community as much as they could, while still hiding it from the Germans. Although her father’s family did not hide any other allies from the war, she remembers her mother’s neighbors were hiding an English ally. Post-War (41:50)                   When the war ended, the war had left the country in ruins. They wanted to start a life, but how could you do that when you have nothing. So her father decided to go to America. Her mother was thinking the same thing, and put an advertisement in the newspaper asking for a traveling companion to immigrate to America. She got 6 letters, and photos, and her neighbors helped her choose which one to go with. It turned out to be her father. They met at the train station, and had coffee. They ended up going for a walk and ended up at a church. After some walking and talking, they decided to meet again, which began their blossoming romance. They would marry a year later, in September 1947, in order to go to America to work on a farm. They sailed to America in October of 1947, on a ship. The men and women were separated. Her mother was having some hard time, thinking she would never see her family again. Her mom told her that they would walk the decks of the ship and smoked, in order not to become sea sick. That was the time her mom picked up that habit. Her mother would also participate in singing on the ship as well. They landed in the New York Harbor. When they saw the Statue of Liberty, it was very emotional for everyone on board. They would work on a farm in Maryland for a year, to work of the debt of those who sponsored their trip there. It was a lot of hard work. After the year was over, they moved to Hudsonville, Michigan, where some of his friends were that they made on the boat. They ended up in Grand Rapids, and her father got a job at a furniture factory. Eventually, some of her family would make it to the USA, and move to Michigan as well. (52:00) Her mother took a correspondence course in artwork and loved it. She would eventually do a lot of commercial sign painting and truly flourished in her job. Her father worked at the furniture factory for the first 5 years and then got a job that he had to quit because he was allergic to the saw dust. From that point on her father had a hard time finding a job, but eventually got into metal work in Holland, Michigan, and worked there until his retirement at 65. Her parents would go back to the Netherlands. Her mother would go back 10 years after immigration, and her 10 years after that, her mother and her and her sisters went to visit family in the Netherlands. � She love it so much that 2 years later, she would eventually go back and would be there for 27 years, marrying, and having four children. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchlepersC1080V Title A name given to the resource Schlepers, Cecilia (Interview transcript and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schlepers, Cecilia Description An account of the resource Cecilia Schlepers is the daughter of two Dutch immigrants who lived under German occupation during the Second World War. She talks about what life was like for each of her parents during the war. Her father's family worked on a farm and her mother's family lost their farm during German occupation. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-02-15 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44c68c0550b32ce422b78a1c4052bae6.mp4 7955c0b081f31bb6cb85d134e7f8b83f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6827d6f6a47bc19ab9eb34c8a49d7eed.pdf 12e0ec4422f2558accb4b6221f33acf5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Harold Schipper (00:39:00) (00:07) Introduction: • Born in Holland, Michigan • Worked in freight warehouses. • His father worked in a print shop. • One of his brothers was in the service before he was. • He finished school at eighth grade to begin working. (01:28) • Received his draft notice in early 1944. • Was chosen to be a Marine while being sworn into the service in Detroit. • Spent 8 weeks in San Diego, California for basic training. • During basic, the men would regularly go for thirty mile hikes. • He did not have any problems with his drill instructors. • After basic training he was able to go home. (03:45) • After a visit home, he was shipped to the Solomon Islands. • He had never been on a ship before being sent to the Pacific. • He could not swim, so he was afraid of being in the ship. • He did not become seasick on the trip. • The weather was very nice, took 30 days to get to the Solomon Islands. • 3000 men were sent on the transport. • They had to watch for mines. • The ship was alone, not a part of a convoy. • Landed fifty miles away from Guadalcanal. • When he landed, he was assigned to his regiment. • His name was not called off during the original assignment list. • Assigned to the quartermaster’s office. (09:25) • Had to care for the supplies. • Also had to care for the officer’s mess hall. • The men would have to set the table and serve food to the officers. • He was able to eat much better than the other men, because of his assignment. • Assigned to the 1st marine division. • Waited for the marines to come back from Peleliu. • Many of the men returning from Peleliu were badly injured. (11:20) • The men would work with the native population. • They would search for special stones while the marines would give them cigarettes. �(11:50) • Had no idea where he was going when he was about to be shipped to Okinawa. • The weather was good for the trip from the Solomons to Okinawa. • Part of a very large convoy. • Recalls being able to tell the depth of the ocean by looking at the water color. • Was still part of a supply detail while on the ship. • Battleships and destroyers were part of his convoy. • Many of the men on his ship were suppliers. • The convoy was attacked by Japanese bombers, but American destroyers took them out. • The men would get out of their ships with nets onto Higgins boats to make it over the reef. (16:45) Okinawa: • Remembers a large sea wall with machine gun placements. • The Japanese were not directly behind the seawall, they were further in the hills. • He had a very routine daily schedule. • He would receive orders in the morning and would have to fulfill them by the end of the day. • At times, the men would have to build bridges for the troops. • Remembers his officers being much older and experienced than he was. • He forgot to destroy a pair of ruined lieutenant’s pants, and was in trouble when the colonel came and saw them. (22:00) • Brought supplies in a jeep to the front lines. • This was the only time where he saw the front lines. • The Americans were doing most of the attacking, with Japanese trying to defend. • Doesn’t remember being too far in from shore. • He did not have to go to the shore to receive shipments; it was all brought to him. • The same group of 20 men stayed together the entire time. (25:00) • The men would stay on the camp while they had time off. • Did not receive a lot of information about what was happening on the front lines. • He never saw the casualties coming back to camp. • Remembers being in an outhouse when the first atomic bomb was dropped. • When the war was over, the men had just been loaded up on ships. • A small typhoon hit the island when they were finishing loading up. • The men were sent to Tientsin, China. • They spent six months in Tientsin. • He has no idea why the men were sent to China. • Remembers the city being very dirty and poor when he was there. • While on liberty in the city, the men would throw money out the window so the poor could receive some. • Inflation in the city was terrible. (31:00) �• • • Was sent on a garbage scow when he finally left China, because there were no ships for them. He stopped in Hawaii. While on the ship, he was hanging in a hammock when someone cut the ropes and he fell. He was not allowed off the ship when they stopped in Hawaii. He landed in San Diego, California. He was sent to Great Lakes for discharge. • • • (34:40) • He was so glad to be back in Holland. • He began working in a freight warehouse, unloading boxcars. • Feels he was well taken care of and disciplined while he was a Marine. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchipperH Title A name given to the resource Schipper, Harold J. (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schipper, Harold J. Description An account of the resource Harold Schipper served in the Marine Corps from 1943 to 1946. After training in California, he was sent to the Solomon Islands, where he joined the 1st Marine Division as a replacement after the invasion of Peleliu. He took part in the landing on Okinawa, where he served with a supply unit, moving supplies from the harbor to positions inland. After the war, his unit was stationed in Tientsin, China, for six months, where he noted the extreme poverty of most of the inhabitants. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Marine Corps World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-12-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives