692 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/348805a17f10b51b87f2907f8229e070.jpg 0afadbe06bfafe70bc0908666790693f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/23e1d26afa9dd65f4a10d3e45286564e.jpg 790222cf52baee873a016d52036bf04d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Insel-Bücherei Series Description An account of the resource The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904-1987 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource ger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05_IB0023 Title A name given to the resource Der Opfergang: eine Novelle Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</A> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Description An account of the resource Cover of Der Opfergang: eine Novelle, by Rudolf Georg Binding, published by Insel-Verlag, 1940. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.23 Language A language of the resource de Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/086e9b083013699dad9866818f3f4723.jpg 6b710f1281026b871b5e2a572936928b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/54dbbd06f7a3fd1a2b68a07a895c016a.jpg ecb35fc5ad883aeb35a33bd8a682757e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Insel-Bücherei Series Description An account of the resource The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904-1987 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource ger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05_IB0014 Title A name given to the resource Aucassin und Nicolette Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1954 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Description An account of the resource Cover of Aucassin und Nicolette, published by Insel-Verlag, 1954. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.14 Language A language of the resource de Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0294cac79082732b107d774571b9730b.jpg 0b5acdd6553d8b2638f90ab69c7e8ace https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac5c97ee2ec7d155b4f463e0aaa30cc4.jpg 8439b68d7e997e18aae41f3981c56c7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Insel-Bücherei Series Description An account of the resource The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904-1987 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource ger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05_IB0012 Title A name given to the resource Die Sage von Sankt Julianus dem Gastfreien Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</A> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Description An account of the resource Cover of Die Sage von Sankt Julianus dem Gastfreien, by Gustave Flaubert, published by Insel-Verlag, 1904. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.12 Language A language of the resource de Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5273d2647986de0b8be6942eed4b3a56.jpg efaf67343118bee23f87a129b30c96f1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b5730f3909a91e64c526c24e5586a6b.jpg 162f63f06b41f78f3b39e6474cdc61d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Insel-Bücherei Series Description An account of the resource The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904-1987 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource ger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05_IB0011 Title A name given to the resource Mogens: eine Novelle Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</A> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1912 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Description An account of the resource Cover of Mogens: eine Novelle, by Jens Peter Jacobsen, published by Insel-Verlag, 1912. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 11 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.11 Language A language of the resource de Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ecb8040014698e1ac6a88af879c98f1.jpg e1776db2c0d508835908b436f916adb3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4c30c8f241e5a10c53fa80035226fe8.jpg 636e96f96862c1ba5019dbb1d2c9edc6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Insel-Bücherei Series Description An account of the resource The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904-1987 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource ger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05_IB0009 Title A name given to the resource Die Verteidigung des Sokrates: Kriton Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</A> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1933 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Description An account of the resource Cover of Die Verteidigung des Sokrates: Kriton, by Plato, published by Insel-Verlag, 1933. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 9 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.9 Language A language of the resource de Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/40a198e228ed5c75538b01a870029ab5.jpg 1a49d8b855f287f4afc03a7f94dd311a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9431dff8498e5e47ecdd7d9e919f22fd.jpg f2d8365aa7511dfafb4af05e33cef475 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Insel-Bücherei Series Description An account of the resource The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904-1987 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource ger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05_IB0001b Title A name given to the resource Die Weise von Liebe und Tod des Cornets Christoph Rilke Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</A> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1926 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Description An account of the resource Cover of Die Weise von Liebe und Tod des Cornets Christoph Rilke, by Rainer Maria Rilke, published by Insel-Verlag, 1926. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 1 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.1 Language A language of the resource de Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80ea4aa158ad92e717158958a87f3865.jpg a60d39dcba693e168dacfb568849a15d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bca62a21e0d39abf6219a0cae9396b62.jpg 66ad079a72bf6434803d166226943884 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Insel-Bücherei Series Description An account of the resource The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904-1987 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource ger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05_IB0001a Title A name given to the resource Die Weise von Liebe und Tod des Cornets Christoph Rilke Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</A> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1949 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Description An account of the resource Cover of Die Weise von Liebe und Tod des Cornets Christoph Rilke, by Rainer Maria Rilke, published by Insel-Verlag, 1949. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 1 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.1 Language A language of the resource de Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/321bf422d64f57545b631bfad039a9b3.m4v 16c0ac7d875b0b645c9de85ab02c4a4a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d745a9f23369ab95e693aca1ffc99b6.pdf 8e4cc59107df6248816a041ab9e58777 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW VIVIAN KELLOGG, First Base Women in Baseball Born: Jackson, Michigan Resides: Brooklyn, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit, Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, November 12, 2010 Interviewer: “Vivian, can you begin by telling us a little bit about your background. Start with where were you born? I was born in Jackson, Michigan and I played softball for a couple of teams in Jackson. Interviewer: “In what year were you born?” 1922 Interviewer: “When did you first start to play ball?” Ever since I could get my hands on a ball. My mother died when I was seventeen months old, so I never knew my mother, but my brothers and sisters actually raised me and time after time I had a different boss because they would get married and leave home. My youngest brother was nine years older than I was and he had to baby sit and he set me to throwing. 10:45 If he ever wanted to go out and play ball, he had to take me or else he couldn’t go. They would stick me out in the outfield, but eventually I would work up to playing in the infield, but I played ball as long as I can remember and all my school years I was into sports. It was my brothers that taught me to play ball. Interviewer: “At what point did you start to play on a girls’ team?” You had to be a certain age and I think I was seventeen. We had to sign in too at that time, have our parents sign. Whichever one was my boss at that time is the one that signed the paper. 11:42 1 �Interviewer: “Then did you play with a local league?” Yes, just a local league. Interviewer: “How is it you got involved with the All American Girls League?” I was playing in a state tournament representing Michigan and the tournament was held in Lansing and a scout was scouting for women’s baseball and that’s how I got involved in it. Interviewer: “Now, did this scout introduce himself?” Yes, he told us and I signed the contract, but I didn’t play until after the tournament, our bowling tournament, but we didn’t come in first place, but anyway we finished. Interviewer: “So, when did you actually join the league and start playing then?” 12:42 Interviewer: “Did you play in 1943?” No, that’s when I was playing softball and it was 1944 when I actually played with the Minneapolis Millerettes. Interviewer: “When you were going to start the season then in 1944, did you go to spring training first? Did they have that?” Yes Interviewer: “Where was it?” It was in Chicago and they picked the teams. The girls on different teams and I was picked for Minneapolis, so when it folded because of no attendance we came to the Fort Wayne Daisies. Interviewer: “Did you play a year when you were in Minneapolis or did you immediately move?” 2 �We used the same ball field as the Minneapolis baseball team because we were playing when they were on the road, but did we learn a lot in those locker rooms. That’s how we traveled, but we lived in private homes and when it was folded we were on the bus from town to town. 14:10 We stayed in hotels because at that time there weren’t motels. Interviewer: “Did you just have one season in Minneapolis or part of one season?” Just half a season Interviewer: “Half a season” The next season the Fort Wayne franchise bought it. Interviewer: “In the meantime you were just a kind of barnstorming team then?” Now, if we were scheduled to play Racine and it was supposed to be on our field, but we played on Racine’s field, we just reversed who was the home team, but we didn’t have a home ground until 1945. Interviewer: “OK now, what position did you play?” I played first base. Interviewer: “Why did you play first base other than something else?” When I played softball I was a catcher, but when I went to play in the baseball league they put me on first base, so that’s how I got on first base. 15:14 Interviewer: “So, they just told you to play there. Now, were you a good hitter?” I could hit, but I couldn’t run. I got a standing ovation once because I stole second base, but I enjoyed the game very much and it was hard at times, but it was gratifying because we were doing something for our country, we were entertaining on the home front because in baseball the boys were all drafted. We got to—when we were returning home from spring training we would play at army camps, different ones. We stayed in the 3 �barracks and seen how they lived. When they put up a diamond they would just mark it off and we played baseball for the soldiers at camp and on our last trip we played at Battle Creek and that’s where the German prisoners were held and after the game we went to Percy Jones Hospital because that’s where the veterans were in the hospital, so we visited maybe forty five minutes to an hour which they enjoyed because they only saw the doctors and the nurses and aids during the day, so they enjoyed our visit. 16:55 Interviewer: “Was it part of your motivation to join the league? Was this something you could do for the war effort?” When they signed me I had no idea it was for the war effort until I signed the contract and then Mr. Wrigley and at that time, the President of the United States—that’s why we got to have gas because we were entertaining on the home front and in the army camps. Interviewer: “So, you signed the contract just to play ball and you learn then that this is part of something bigger, so you’re doing something—you’re making your own contribution there, but you learned about that later?” Well, I played seven years and I thought it was time I got out because I had to make a living, so I quit and I stayed in Fort Wayne three years and in ten years I returned home and I went to work for a dentist and I worked for him for thirty years. 18:40 Interviewer: “Talk a little bit more about the actual experience of playing in the league. Who do you think were the best players on your team?” Well, you can’t judge—maybe I give them all credit; give them all credit for the position they played and how they got along with the teams and with their teammates. So, I think the Daisies got along together because we spent twenty-four hours, seven days a week together. 19:26 4 �Interviewer: “Who was the manager while you were with them?” Well, I had Bill Wambsganns who use to be—Harold Greiner, Jimmy Foxx, and my first manager was a fellow from the southern states who played in major baseball, but do you think I can remember his name? 19:50 The manager we had, some of them were retired baseball players like Jimmy Foxx and that. We did learn things, like, one day I had to stand on first base for a half hour shifting from one leg to the other to make sure I was getting the rhythm right, like if I hit my left foot on the base or if I hit my right foot, my left foot was out, so it was different than softball where you just caught the ball period. 20:42 Interviewer: “So they were giving you some coaching and you were learning more as you were going. Now, how much of the etiquette training and the make-up stuff, how much of that did you have to do?” We always had a physical and we had a check-up with the doctor and sometimes we would have to get up do practice that day. If the team wasn’t harmonizing, getting along and losing we would have to have practice. Interviewer: “In the movie, one of the things they made a big deal of was the etiquette and Helena Rubenstein and all of that stuff. How much of that did you experience?” 21:43 Of what? Interviewer: “Did you have a lot of rules to follow?” Oh yes, we had to be a certain distance, length and we couldn’t wear slacks outside, we always had to have a skirt on and in the school they taught us how to sit and how to appear for the public because, I wasn’t, but a lot of the girls were from the farms, so they 5 �didn’t have that and the charm school was to teach us, like I say, how to handle your self in public and dress proper. 22:40 Interviewer: “What kind of fan support did you have? Did you have a lot of people coming to your games?” At first we took a lot of ribbing, “go home where you belong”, “go take care of your kids”, but eventually we won them over because it was something to entertain them and the wives were always wondering why their husbands were always going to the ball park. All the fans we had, the men were in the service, so we had the youngsters and females and elderly men. I can remember one time we were playing in Racine, and that’s just outside of Chicago near the navy station and there was a couple of sailors around first base were heckling me and at that time we didn’t take our coats to the dugout, we just threw them up against the fence and he was riding me and riding me and I had a torn cartilage and I had a knee brace on and when I was going down first base he said, “take the piano off your back”, so when I got in the dugout I said, “anybody got any money?” Timmy said, “I have a nickel”, and I said, “give it to me”, so I gave the two fellows a nickel and said, “put this in your organ “, and afterwards they met me at the gate and asked us out for dinner. 24:29 Of course we couldn’t because we were chaperoned, but they were nice enough. Interviewer: “They had you playing wearing a knee brace?” Yeah, and as a matter of fact I got two knee braces on now because I have torn cartilage . At that time they removed it the first time I had a leg wound or torn ligament, but they don’t do that now, but they went in that knee twice and this knee once, so I was no speed demon on the bases. 25:11 6 �Interviewer: “I’m a little surprised they had you playing at all, but at first base you don’t run that much.” If our right fielder or somebody was hurt and I didn’t have a brace on, I would go out and play right field, but very seldom because of my hitting and not my running, my hitting. Interviewer: “Are there particular things that happened in particular games that you remember really well or if you think back to when you were playing are there events that you remember?” 26:05 This was all new to me, so everything was an event to me, but I do have a lot of memories of different things that are gone and the friendships that I made and how the public treated us. At first, especially the men, didn’t think women should be playing baseball and we had to block our hearing off so that we wouldn’t be interrupted. We had to have rabbit ears, that’s what we called them. The only time I ever said anything to a fan was when those two sailors that were ribbing me and it wasn’t doing any harm to me, but I could hear them because it was close to first base and after that I never said a thing. I did get a letter from them saying the next time they come could I go out for a steak dinner, so I knew I didn’t hurt their feelings. 27:20 Interviewer: “Are there particular games, individual games, that you remember well? Are there things that stand out from your playing career?” Dotty Collins was out pitcher and I remember we had a double header and she pitched both games and won them and we kind of stuck up for one another and backed them up. See, our rules, we had league rules, but the managers from different teams had different ideas, so some of the girls didn’t like them for that reason, but I had no complaints because I was getting paid. 28:16 7 �Interviewer: “How much did they pay you?” Well, I was working for the telephone company, Michigan Bell Telephone Co. and I was making $37.50 a week. I signed a contract for $70.00 a week and I thought I was a millionaire because it was twice as much and back in 1942 $37.50 was good money, but when they said $75.00, I thought, wow! We had to pay for our own meals at home and rent, but on the road we got $33.75 a day and back then you could buy breakfast for a quarter, dinner for seventy-five cents and lunch for a dollar and a half. You could save that money that you didn’t use, so when you got home you had money for lunches then. 29:21 Interviewer: “Did you save money while you were in the league?” Yeah, I bought a car when cars were available. Interviewer: “If you were making seventy dollars a week, that was more money than some of the other players were making?” Some made more than that and it was who the scout was and if you notice in the records, the California gals seemed to come up with the higher wages than others did. Interviewer: “there were some who were making fifty dollars a week and not seventy.” Yeah, there were some under that, but $75.00 is what I started out with. Interviewer: “While you were playing, did your team ever win the championship?” Close to it a couple times. 30:30 Interviewer: “What was the closest you got?” Well, we did win it once and I know I made $500.00 and that’s when I bought my first car when we won. 8 �Interviewer: “You were talking a little bit about your decision to stop playing, explain that a little bit more, why did you give up playing?” The reason was, I wasn’t getting any younger and I was wearing braces because that one leg was bothering me and I thought, “I’ll get out while I’m still walking, which I’m not doing today, and then I went to work in Fort Wayne and I worked at different gymnastics and Turners was a club that sports and I worked for the Lincoln Life Insurance Company. I worked there three years and I kind of wanted to come home, so I came home, when I say home, to Jackson, and I didn’t know what I was going to do. 31:29 I had no place to go and I had to find an apartment. I bought war bonds and I sold war bonds during the war and those war bonds came in handy for me because then I could find a place to live and find a job. I went to work for Dr. Schreiner, a dentist, and I worked for him for thirty years and I started out on the money from the war bonds that I bought and cashed in. 32:25 Interviewer: “If you look back at your baseball career, what effect do you think that had on you?” Well, I was shy, I never forwarded myself like when I was in school I might have known the answer, but I would never raise my hand to answer it. Sometimes when the teacher would call my attention I would get tongue-tied. It was just that way, but since I’ve joined the league, I have come out to where I can now go out and speak to youngsters about sports and the personalities and of the All American Girls league and how it started. That helped me because otherwise I kind of stood back. 33:23 Interviewer: “Did the people who knew you in Jackson after your baseball career, did they know you were a ball player?” 9 �No, and when I came home they would ask me where I had been for the last ten years and I would tell them I was playing baseball and they never heard of it, so I never bothered to talk about it because nobody believed it and even some close relatives never did. When the movie came out, A League of Their Own, and they saw Penny Marshall interview different players that had started in the league, so when the movie came out and we were inducted, then they said, “why didn’t you tell us, why didn’t you tell us you played ball?” I said, “Because nobody would listen”. They didn’t believe girls played baseball. 34:19 Interviewer: “When you were playing ball, did you think of yourselves as pioneers or people who were doing something new and important?” All I can think of is it was fun, it was tough at times, but it was gratifying knowing we had done something for our country. Interviewer: “Later on, when you get into the 1970’s and 1980’s you have a lot more women in sports, you have title nine and all of that.” I feel that’s what had to go to ball because we were the ones that pushed that for girls softball because I can remember when I worked for the Jackson recreation, excuse me, before I started playing ball and when I came back I worked for them and played rounds and different things and if the girls had a game and the boys were rained out, the boys had the privilege of the diamond. When Brooklyn, where I live now, Brooklyn, Michigan, when they dedicated a ball diamond, there were four at the complex and I said, “I want one for the girls only”, so that’s what they did, there’s four games played at the same time and one of them is the girls diamond. 36:07 When they dedicated it they invited me in to talk to the girls and I said, “this is your diamond and be proud to play on it. It will help women’s sports”, so they did and they won a championship a couple of 10 �times, the girl’s softball. It’s the high school girls and now I will get a call from one of them asking if I would like to come out and see a game. No matter who calls me to ask me to come out and watch them play. Sometimes the boys, the little league, I didn’t know them because they had helmets and all that equipment on and their mothers would be sitting next to them and I would say, “which one’s your son’s number”, because of all the equipment. 37:12 I remember asking one little boy, “who’s the best player on your team?” He said, “I am”, so I agreed with him. That’s what I got out of my baseball, the thrill of coaching little girls as well as little boys and I feel the boys were as interested in it as the girls. Interviewer: “Interested in the fact that you played? They liked that too.” Yeah, Interviewer: “I think now people recognize how unusual your league was and how significant it was, so now we have a way of understanding that and appreciating it. Maybe they didn’t have that. Are there any other thoughts you would like to put on the record here before we close out the interview?” The people I feel bad about supported us, were here for the recognition and they’re the ones that supported us and that’s the only regret I have is that we were so long in getting recognized that they are gone. 38:31 Interviewer: “Other players or other people who started the league? Players that are gone?” Oh yes, there are more associates in our league now than there are players, as a matter of fact, we lost two here this month. 11 �Interviewer: “We’re doing our best to catch up with you while you’re still here, so thank you very much for coming in and talking to me today.” Thank you. 38:56 12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_VKellogg Title A name given to the resource Kellogg, Vivian (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kellogg, Vivian Description An account of the resource Vivian Kellogg was born in Jackson, Michigan, in 1922. She grew up playing baseball with her brothers, and joined a girls' team in Jackson when she was seventeen. She was spotted by a scout in 1943, and was assigned to the Minneapolis Millerettes for the 1944 season. The team became the Fort Wayne Daisies in 1945, and she was their starting first baseman through the 1950 season, and then retired due to knee injuries. After working for a number of years in Fort Wayne, she returned to Michigan and coached boys' little league teams and started a girls' softball league. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Minnesota Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c42990a60e86b7dbe4c108c04c63ad47.m4v fa659475ddcb289600fe23ea8a2316ee https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f56e382575eb4a2579dcb68f799e8216.pdf 72a3ca60a73aaccde475c16f7454ebf0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Toni Palermo Length of Interview: (01:00:14) Interviewed by: Gordon Olson GVSU Veterans History Project, September 26, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, September 7, 2010 Interviewer: “Let’s start with some easy stuff, just some background, tell me a little bit about your family and where you grew up before professional baseball?” Yes, I grew up in Forest Park, Illinois and my parents were from Italy and I spoke no English when I went to school, so it took some doing. I had a lot of speech practice with speech in college to eradicate all the Italian mispronunciations and accent, but yes our family background was very poor and the other thing that I thought was very interesting—I never had to get permission from my parents to play ball. Today you almost have to have the legal system supporting you, so I thought that was quite interesting. Interviewer: “Did you play ball as a child?” 1:11 Yes, Interviewer: “With brothers and sisters?” No, I just played with the boys all the time; there were no you know. In Forest Park there was a “Parishey Bloomers Girls” professional softball team and they had a farm team and when I was, I think, ten years old my physical education teacher, who was a “Parishey Bloomer Girl” professional, retired, told me to try out for their farm team and then to eventually be on their team and I did and I made it. I was so small and everything that they had a special uniform for me. The others were black and white and they had a blue and gold thing that they could find to fit me, but I was strong and mighty, very strong. Small, but mighty. 1:58 Interviewer: “You looked more like their mascot than one of their players.” I know it, the glove was bigger than I was. Interviewer: “Now Parishey, was that a company?” He owned a construction company and then he owned the professional team. They were thee professional team, they were the champions of all champions. Interviewer: “To be selected that young to be trained for that.” 1 �I practiced, I shagged balls, I was out there all the time and it’s just I learned the game between being with the boys and the Parishey Bloomer girls, I learned the game and I was very fast, which was nice, so that was a big help too. I could shag more than the others 2:43 Interviewer: “As they say, and it’s said over and over in all levels of baseball or other sports, “you can’t teach speed”. If you’re fast--” You can work on it and improve it, yeah I agree. Interviewer: “It’s a great asset. How did you learn about, how did you get involved with the professional baseball league?” Well, they were scouting and they saw me play, I think when I was eleven, and they came up and asked me to go to Cuba to do spring training. I really thought they had—I just thought that they weren’t for real, truly. I was so young and I thought, “why would they want me to go to Cuba?” And to think that I was good enough. I knew I loved it, but I had no concept if I was good, bad or different, I just loved the game. They said they would get tutors for me and this, that and the other and that’s where “Lefty” came from, I didn’t know if you know Alvarez, Lefty Alvarez and Maita, they all came from Cuba. 3:50 I opt not to do it, I don’t know, just because I didn’t believe it and it would have been nice to go and I would have found out that I actually belonged there too. Interviewer: “But they kept watching you.” They kept pursuing me and then Mr. Parishey pursued me when I was thirteen, so I was with them before that in what they called the farm team and then he signed me when I was thirteen, then the league got in touch with me and I got excited about it and on my own at age fourteen, I can’t believe I did this, got off, got onto the El, got off at Canal Street, got on that train, went to South Bend, Indiana, nobody caring anything or babying anybody, got there and then found the ball park you know and I can’t—I think back and then I went to New York and met the team in New York on the flight, got on the plane and I look back at all that and I don’t know how I had courage and not been afraid. 4:53 You had a goal and I guess my goal was to get to the team and that took care of all the problems. Interviewer: “ You had to have some trust in where you were going and the people all around that you were going to make it ok?” Yeah, they gave the directions, here’s how you get there and I just used my brain and on I went. Interviewer: “Did you have a contract at that point?” Not yet, but I—when I went to South Bend, that was a training, and then when I went to, I think I must have signed the contract wither just before or when I got to New York. 5:27 2 �Interviewer: “When you signed there because, there are a couple of things here that are very interesting. The fact that you’re fourteen years old and your parents knew you were doing this.” Yes, but I never asked permission. Interviewer: “You just took off?” No, I think I just said that they wanted me to play and I was going to go. It wasn’t like today you know. It’s so legalistic today, but yeah, and I think that they were happy that I was happy and of course I really sent all my money back home, so I think that made them happy after the fact. 6:06 Interviewer: “How many brothers and sisters in your family?” I had one sister. Interviewer: “Before we abandon this line, what did your father—what was the line of work?” He was a salesman and my mother a stay at home, but he taught collage classes and that, he had a university degree, but he never questioned, he just—he saw that I was skilled and we were poor and he bought me a bike because I said I wanted a bike so I could go riding with the boys, so he bought me a boys bike and things like that. He just kind of supported what I wanted and must have thought I had some kind of skill or talent. 6:51 Interviewer: “And he had confidence that you would find your way to south Bend.” I don’t think that even bothered them and I think because I wasn’t afraid. Interviewer: “What do you recall about the tryout and the training that you did there?” Oh, I loved it, just loved it and again I wasn’t apprehensive. I had confidence and I guess I didn’t realize that they were going to test me out and decide whether to take me or not. I just assumed that I was in. You know, I went there, they were going to take me, and it wasn’t like a question, so I just loved it and they gave tips. For a while there I was being hit all the time, hit in the arm by the pitches and one time I lost my temper and I threw the bat and angry that they’re just killing me and then the coach came up and said, “be angry with yourself, you’re the one stepping into the ball”, he said, “you’re supposed to avoid the pitch”. 7:49 He said, “you’re running right into the ball”, and he told me that you have to hit ahead because if you wait for that pitch and it’s curving it’s going to hit you every time. He said, “I don’t want to see that anger at all again or that temper or whatever it was, you find a way of keeping out of the way of the ball”. That was a good lesson learned. Interviewer: “How many were there at this tryout? It was a tryout and you just didn’t know it.” It was packed all over the field and I don’t recall how many. 3 �Interviewer: “A lot.” Yes, and I know we were at Wrigley Field also. For whatever reason, I remember either working out or trying out there a lot in that Chicago area. 8:35 Interviewer: “Ultimately you’re selected?” Yes Interviewer: “At this point it’s not to play in the all American Girls League. They had another—they had a barnstorming team.” Yes, that’s correct. Interviewer: “Tell me about that.” That was something else and I didn’t know the difference anyhow whatever it was. It was called the touring team and we were to be the P.R. people to like introducing it all over the United States and also kind of finding talent, so in every state that we played there were tryouts. And that’s how Sue Kidd got in, I don’t know if she’s been interviewed, but she was picked up in Arkansas and the caliber—there were a lot of players who had been in the leagues and a few of the teams had broken up or they weren’t making it financially, so they then came on the touring teams, so we had these veterans with us and ourselves. We had--Max Carey came out and he showed me how to initiate a double play like everybody to this day if I were out in the field people are like in awe and it’s beautiful, how to time it, hit the corner of the bad and get off, and people would just awe you know. 9:50 That all came from Max Carey and how to—at first, you know the people who field the grounders, kids are fielding them down here and they don’t reach out and get them, and he said to all of us, “none of you know how to field a grounder”, and evidently we were all doing that and I took offense to that inside and thought, “uh, I’m playing all this time and he’s telling me I don’t know how to field a grounder”, and I never committed errors, but I took it to heart and it made sense to reach out, and I use to say, “reach out and touch someone”, you know, reach out and get it. Then you get to the ball earlier and you have more time to get them and so his help was very helpful and you know, batting, bunting, we practiced in the sand, sliding in the sand, you know sliding in the sand. They would time our bat swing, so you’re up there and they had a flashlight, and they would flash the light and you would swing and the timing of that, so everybody after the league ended, I would play in the summer leagues in Madison, they would say, “oh you have the fastest swing, the fastest swing”, and I thought that all came from the coaching and the training. 11:00 Interviewer: “You’re talking of things that youngsters playing and getting to the majors too quick don’t know. They talk about young people with what they call the long swing and it’s the opposite of what you’re describing. It’s a big looping swing and a good pitcher will take advantage of it, but a short quick swing is not nearly as easy to get the ball past.” Yes, and it’s extending, It’s not just a little thing like this, you really are extending, but it did the job because, see you had more time to adjust the pitches too. If you had a quick 4 �swing, it’s a curve you can reach out, if it’s a fastball you’re not going to be that late on it, where the slower swing people were caught all the time. 11:46 It was an advantage and we had all these coaches and managers that really taught—if you were coachable, and throughout my life I’ve been coachable, and that’s the key. I really love learning. Interviewer: “It’s about attitude.” Yes, attitude. Interviewer: “Now, this is—you were obviously very naturally skilled and what you’re talking about it the first time you were really formally taught the game, so you spent how many years with the barnstorming team?” Two, Two years with the barnstorming team. The interesting thing too is being the P.R. people, every state we had all these parades and we would be on the fire trucks, we would be in the airplanes, we were all over and they would have big bands and we would go into the town. 12:45 We also played Yankee Stadium and Ebbets Field, those two places and I was in the dugout with Phil “Scooter” Rizzuto and he let me use his glove and we were on theirs and then the Eagles, no not the Eagles, the Phillies, I think they were called the Phillies, Connie Mack’s team, they were in the other dugout and so we had a lot of plus opportunities. Interviewer: “Who were your opponents?” Each other, we had—it was Chicago Colleens and Springfield Sallies and there was a bonus, whoever won at the end, the most games, got a higher percentage of the money. It was a big incentive. We played against each other and then we rode on the bus together, played against each other and we were tough against each other, but we really respected each other after the fact. 13:34 Interviewer: “Did they come out pretty even at the end of the year?” Yes, The first we won, I was a Chicago Colleen, then the next year I came back as a Chicago Colleen and the teams were unbalanced, we were winning too much, so the coach came up to me and said, “Toni, I don’t want to spoil your game or your rhythm and you’re doing so well, but we need to put you on the other team, on the Springfield Sallyies, so that we can balance it better”. It was just too lopsided, so I agreed to it and It’s interesting because the shortstop on the other team, who I thought was excellent, she had long arms and she could—I thought to myself, I had to run ten steps to her one and she had a beautiful throwing arm, so it was interesting in my mind I thought, “why would—what difference does it make when she’s so good?” I didn’t think that I was that much better, but I got to thinking afterwards, “I have an attitude and a spirit that she didn’t have”. We may have been comparable in skill, I was faster and sometimes when you have these long—but she was excellent, and I got to thinking that I was inspired more because I would just dive for every ball and I had kind of an energy and she was laid back kind of from the south you know. 14:58 That was my assessment because I couldn’t reconcile why I was going to make a difference and it did make a difference. I 5 �think the team got together and we won. We won by two games at the end. Came from way back behind and it was nice, it was nice. Interviewer: “Very satisfying. Did they take then some players from each year from the barnstorming teams up to the--?” Yes, and even during this. They were going to take me the first year and then just as I was about to leave they decided they—not thinking age, decided, “We’ll give her another year”, but at that time, I stole the most bases and I had the highest on base batting average, says the coach to me you know, and I was leadoff batter, so I don’t know, it would have been interesting to see how I would have kind of compared when I got there. 15:55 Were they stronger women because they were they older and more experience? Twice I was supposed to go up and twice it was rescinded and I think basically it was they wanted to give me more age time. Interviewer: “After two years you’re only sixteen or seventeen years old.” Yes, fourteen, fifteen, just going on sixteen, yeah. Interviewer: “Just reaching the point where—“ It’s interesting because they knew I was going to steal and I got to steal every time I got on and I got on a lot because I had a very good eye, so I seldom struck out and I hit with authority. It seemed like when I hit it was a bullet. They weren’t big home runs, but I hit really strong, so they had a hard time handling my ball and then I was fast, so the steal and I said to the coach, “they’re all waiting for me”. I was so tired of sliding and you know they had lye on the bases and lye on the base and I was just raw all the time, hook sliding, hook sliding, and he said, “never mind, never mind”, and the other thing is when I got on first, if there was a hit and run, I had better get to third. 17:03 That was a given, you just don’t stop you just swish and get all the way to third, so there were challenges, you know it was exciting, but heart throbbing. Interviewer: “It sound like you had a coach who was he?” At that time I think it was Lenny, Lenny Lesnick and then Mitch, Mitch was the second year. Interviewer: “It sounds like these were guys whose idea was to take the game to the opposition to push them all the time.” Yeah, you had--a lot with the mind, when you were--say a runner on first, what do you do when the runners on first? Before the ball’s even pitched, what are you saying to yourself? Well, you had to say to yourself, “well, if it’s a fast runner on first, you have to know your pitcher, outside, inside, whatever they normally pitch, so you keep that in mind. If that’s a fast runner, “will there be a double play?” You have to instinctively prepare that if it’s a ball hit fast to you, you have a chance, if it’s a slow roller, you’re not going to get her at second, if she’s a slow runner then you have more options. 18:11 That went through my mind every pitch. I don’t know if the kids do that today, I don’t 6 �know if ball players do that. You had to think every pitch and you had to know your pitcher. I remember one of the older players and she said, “I can’t get over”, and I was telling her where to be on the field, over there, over there, move in, move out and I never thought that I was a little shrimp bossing anybody around or whatever, it just—I was in the game and I would see she was not playing where she should have been and positioned and I would just say—and one time she came over and said, “I can’t get over, how do you know where they’re going to hit?” It was the studying of the pitchers, some pitchers pitch outside a lot, so then obviously they’re not going to zing them right to you, they’re going to skew away from you, so all those things were on my brain and age fourteen and fifteen. 19:05 Well, I’m grateful that God endowed me with a great mind, but you know, it was exciting. Interviewer: “I think I’m getting a clue as to why they moved you to the other team. It had to do, not only with your ability, but what you were going to bring to the other player. You’re right a little bit of a spark plug, but also you were going to set an example.” The coach, Mitch, he said, “Toni came here to play ball”, so evidently, I have a feeling, there were a few slacking a little just because he said, “she’s out there and she came to play ball, and what about the rest of you?” I t was quite a challenge. 19:46 Interviewer: “Once again, attitude. You mentioned a couple of the managers, any other coaches or managers that come to mind that you remember yet?” Yeah, our chaperones were really good, yeah and contrary to the movie, you know how they went out drinking and this and that, we were so protected. I don’t know if anybody went out drinking and I don’t know how they could have, but the example—you had to be setting an example, set an example, you’re out here introducing baseball to people and they have never seen women play and it’s very important our image to them. We had to be ladylike, always in the skirts even though you finish the game and shower and always with the skirts though hardly anyone would see us that hour of the night you know. Everything was important as to how we presented and their image of women in sports or women in baseball. 20:42 Interviewer: “I know that in some cases there were actually classes or a bit of training for the girls on how to comport themselves, even up to how to fix their hair and everything else. Did you encounter any of that?” No, I’m glad—that would have been something, but I think I would have gone with the flow too and would have been part of it. We had to have our hair a little longer, now mine was never long, but they didn’t want us looking masculine. Everything was important to look feminine and still be ball players. Interviewer: “Not always easy.” Once I was out there, who thought of it right? With the little skirt, sliding into the bases, skirts flying up, it must have been quite exciting. 7 �Interviewer: “It sold tickets. Now, I keep thinking of that particular image, sliding into the bases. Now, what did those uniforms look like? You had shorts on underneath and then a skirt, but there was bare skin and the fields you were playing on sometimes had some pebbles and things?” 21:50 Oh yeah, except when we toured and played in the stadiums, which was really nice, we played in the minor league stadiums that was good, but yeah, other places there were pebbles and you really--it’s interesting, you really adjust to the ground like a golfer does. Interviewer: “Go out and groom your area a little bit if there’s stones out there, get them out of there.” Yeah, and you know they said, “there’s no crying in baseball”, but I have to say, we wouldn’t have thought to cry. I never saw a woman cry there ever, but I’m going to tell you, those strawberries and reopening them, because I was on base every night, that was not an easy thing, but it’s interesting, you didn’t think of it until after you slid and “oww”, you could hardly get up, but you took it , you toughened. 22:46 In fact, when I had my knee surgery five weeks ago the doctor said, “you are really tough Toni, you are tough”, and it all carries through from all that time of being—taking pain and learning to take pain, you’re not born taking it. 23:00 Being a strong person and adversity. Interviewer: “You were athletes and if your teammates are dealing with pain, you better too.” There was no complaining, moaning, groaning, and no gossiping. For women, think of all those women together, it could be men too, they could be talkers too, but when I think of it, with the conditions, no air conditioning, you’re on the bus sweltering, clothes hanging in your face drying out, and trying to sleep on the bus, taking turns using one another’s laps as head rests, feet up in the air and then switching off and not being crabby, that’s amazing, and we would play at night, games over, shower, back into the bus all dressed, back into the bus and then we would travel all night, get up at eight. 24:01 Probably come in about 2:00 or 3:00 o’clock in the morning and get up at 8:00 and we were practicing on the field until noon. And practicing, running the bases, let me tell you, they stood on the base path, you know were you make the cut, well, God help you if you—they were there and they weren’t going to move and you learned to make that cut. Interviewer: “Hit the inside of the base and cross over.” That’s right, and they stood there, they stood there protecting themselves, but you would get the worst end of it and that was all before the game. You did that until noon and then we had a little respite time, get dressed and off to the game and when we had double headers it was nice because you had an extra night to stay, you know to stay. We traveled sometimes—the bus all the time and then trains. We went to Canada that was by train then back to the U.S. We were in thirty-three states in the summer the whole time and then I would go off to high school and come back. 25:03 8 �Interviewer: ‘Very few days off I would think.” Only when it rained, it was wonderful in Florida; it loves to rain, and pour, pour, pour then we would have that day off. It was nice because you had a little rest. Interviewer: “Did you ever play, like a local team or even a men’s team as an exhibition?” No, I think they were trying to do a men’s team, but I don’t think—they wouldn’t have women’s teams at that level, so it would be men, but that seemed to fall through. 25:45 Interviewer: “No men’s team wanted to get beat.” That could be, yeah. Interviewer: “How about some of the opposition, are there specific players that stand out that you either respected or didn’t like in some cases for their attitude toward the game?” I think the interesting thing is , I was, I don’t know about the others, I was so involved in the game that I didn’t have a problem—I didn’t see like imperfections or if they didn’t have a good attitude or this, that, or the other thing, because on my team they seemed to—when the coach said to them, ”Toni’s here to play ball and she has a great attitude”, I didn’t spot them as not having a good attitude and I think he was thinking at a deeper level, they didn’t have that extra that you need to win. There was this one that I didn’t like and I dearly love today, but I think I was a jealous little kid, I truly do, and it wasn’t anything to do with the game itself, she just was more outspoken and kind of so self assured and I thought she was cocky and you know, you’re raised to be kind of simple and humble and I just didn’t like that in her. 27:02 She reminded me one time and she said, “you got mad at me”. I use to set her hair, I use to set everybody’s hair, I was like a little cosmetologist, cut hair and set them, I just taught myself and one time I was so angry with her I wouldn’t set her hair and she told me that, reminded me. Interviewer: “I think I know who that was.” You’d like her. She’s brilliant and really, I look back and I know it was a jealousy of— she was do self assured and what I thought was cocky was not and to this day she’s creative and out there doing things. Interviewer: “Did you ever set her hair again?” Oh yes, the day after, the day after, but I don’t know if there were people that didn’t like one another because you didn’t feel it in tensions or the like. 27:54 More respect and very close to one another, it’s amazing on both teams. Interviewer: “How about the fans, what’s your recollection of the fans?” 9 �Oh, they were wonderful, they were wonderful, they were concerned sometimes—there was a boy that liked me and he followed to different towns. Oh my little heart, and he held my hand one time and then the bus driver said, “you better watch your step Toni the ones that are here and fly out, that are here today and then gone tomorrow”, and I didn’t know what he was talking about. I was so innocent and I was just ignorant of anything and I was just so flattered that he liked me. They kind of had to watch that because you know we were young and they were followers of that. I just remember that incident and he kind of followed, followed, followed and then would write to the hotel and things like that. 28:57 But he was a nice kid and he wasn’t aggressive, but I think of this of our bus driver, I was so lean and tiny and he would say, “tiny little waistline you have there Toni, tiny little waistline”, and I often think today Oh Harold you should see me now. It’s better now, but when I was injured I—you do gain once in a while. Interviewer: “They do follow the game and they do follow the players and they do want to get close to the players.” Yeah, the fans really, really liked us and I think they were in awe because before the game they would announce us and our ages and I think it just kind of floored them you know that most of us—like half were—I was probably—two of us were fourteen I think and the rest were older, but it was still relatively young if they were up to twenty and then the older ball players that had been in the league and back and forth were older, twentyfive or whatever. 30:00 The fans were impressed and, I think, very, very floored that we were as good as we were. We were very tough out there, I mean cleats and all, I mean the game was played tough. I think they saw that and we didn’t throw like little girls or whatever they say, in fact they filmed my throw at the University of Wisconsin and I had one of the fastest women’s throw and that’s after the league. I still have that little film. Interviewer: “I have to tell you, I played on a co-ed team at one point and one of the best shortstops I ever played with was a young woman an incredible thrower and exceptionally good fielder, so you learn to respect after you watch and see how well they can play and that’s what your fans were seeing as well.” 30:50 Yeah, they did and I think they were just floored. They came out of curiosity and they went away—we had just a lot of positive feedback in the newspapers and then more fans came, they seemed to tell other towns, we had big crowds and they came. Interviewer: “Did you have thousands?” I’m not sure, I just know it was filled, so I don’t know what the capacity was and I noticed to in the south, I was so ignorant, I grew up with a father who had such equal respect for people and so we had—when my mother died we had a woman named Queenie and she took care of us and we loved her, we loved her like our own mother and she was African, so I’m in the south now and I went and sat, god forbid, on the bus I don’t remember if they sat in the back, probably, and I went to sit in the back. Immediately the bus driver stops the bus and said, “you have to come up here”, and I didn’t. I did not budge, I just thought it was not right in my heart and finally he just 10 �moved the bus and I sat there and moved on. 32:01 That bothered me and the other thing that bothered me, and I can see how prejudice is learned, the drinking fountains— there was one for the whites and one for the and I don’t know if at that time they were called Negroes, but it made you think that they had some disease or something and that really bothered me because it was like teaching something that was very foreign to me, so that’s what I noticed in the south. I also notice that we had no black players either. Interviewer: “I was going to ask you about that?” I didn’t see the tryouts, but obviously there were some excellent players around and I think it was just not open. Interviewer: “As far as I know the league never had any African American women players. It’s interesting to me because this is just at the time that Jackie Robinson is breaking the major league color line for the first time.” 32.57 He came right after— Interviewer: “forty-seven he came.” Yeah ok and I was in forty-nine, all right. Yeah see, that should have helped, but not women probably and it wasn’t easy for him, you read those stories and you know, nobody liking him and the fans, but that hit me, that really struck me. If you come from the north and I was raised so respectful, I just had so much love in my heart, I went to a school that was all white, Negro’s weren’t allowed in the grade school, but in my high school there were. I remember giving a picture, my picture, to one of the black men and oh, the repercussion, all my friends would come up to me and say, ”do you realize he’s going to show it to all his friends and they’re going to thing you’re boy friend and girl friend”, and blah, blah blah, so those things were eye openers and I’m glad that I had my positive experience because maybe I stood for something in the south at that one bus thing and once in the hotel too. 34:10 I remember taking some of my money and giving money to the maid that was there because I appreciated what she did and those things bothered me. Interviewer: “It was a time when the United States was going through a transition and it was not going to be an easy one we know that and we’re still grappling with the issue, quite frankly to this day.” Yeah, yeah Interviewer: “Two years in the instructional league we’ll call it, or better the barnstorming.” No, no, instructional in a sense that they had that throughout the league. No, I think we were sent there on a mission, a P.R. promotion, introducing it and they were selective. It wasn’t just little nobodies, it was the cream of the crop of players and you had to be chosen for that. The ones from the league, where they disbanded and that, they brought special people there that would be an example and were excellent players, so it wasn’t 11 �minor. 35:10 I think we could have played against anybody in the leagues at south and given them a run for their money. Interviewer: “You never got a chance to play against any of the other teams?” No, no Interviewer: “That would have been fun. Two years and you decided--at this time you’re just about ready to graduate from high school?” Yes, then Parishey Bloomer Girls were knocking on the door again, so I went to play with them and then I was on several professional softball teams I remember at the time. I don’t know if one was named the Chicks or what, but they were trying to build, they were trying to build their teams, so they asked Mr. Parishey if I could go on loan because they needed to build more players, so I did that and then I was called, South Bend wanted me, I think to play with South Bend. I think it was a team that had won one of the championships and I don’t know if it was the South Bend Blue Sox or whatever, but it was in South Bend. 36:13 At the time, I went for spring training and I was going at it and I was going to enter the convent that September. Interviewer: “You had made that decision already?” Oh yeah, I had made that decision two years prior to that, but I was wanting to help my father financially and do things, so I waited and did my thing and anyhow, while I was playing out there it was like a haunting feeling that if I stayed I was not going to enter because I had such a love for that game. All of a sudden out of the clear blue sky, I was tormented, I was tortured there, I decided that I had to go home because if I stayed I never would have left baseball. I didn’t know it was on its way out in the next two years after that or one year really. I feel I signed a contract, but I at least was close or had signed it and informed them that I had to go because I was afraid I would not enter the convent and I made a commitment and that’s one thing I think I learned young on, when you’re in sports, if you’re truly involved and committed, your word is your bond. 37:21 You don’t mess around, if you say you’re going to do something you do it. I said, “I’m doing it and I felt I needed to keep my word and I didn’t think I could if I stayed on because my heart was—I ate, slept and drank baseball. Interviewer: “You had two loves and they weren’t compatible.” Yeah, they wouldn’t have been at that time, so then I entered the convent. Interviewer: “Where?” Right in Milwaukee, St. Joseph’s Convent and I’m in fifty-five years now believe it or not. Interviewer: “And along the way you picked up additional education, additional degrees.” 12 �I got a degree from Alverno College in English, history, math and education, minor with math; they kind of mixed that in. That arose out of need, I was supposed to be a high school teacher, so that was the English, history, and math. 38.13 Then there was a shortage of elementary, first grade, so they sent me back to get the educational for primary and I was sent to first grade instead of high school and spent six years doing that. Then I went on, I wanted to do physical ed and finally they allowed me to do summer school physical ed. I was going to get a doctorate in physical ed and back tracked on that and completed a masters in that and then completed a doctorate in six departments and meanwhile I got the masters, the doctorate and another masters and got all three almost simultaneously. 38:57 That comes too in baseball, not only did I have intelligence, but I had—they said they couldn’t keep up with my energy, so you really had work ethic, so I completed three things, I did the two masters, I did my prelims for my PhD, and three chapters, all kind of together and the professor said I had too much energy and too much blah, blah, or something for them to keep up with me, but they were happy to have me. 39:25 From there I completed a masters in psychiatric social work and mental health and ended up with three masters, the doctorate, the bachelors, and I could have had four masters, but I decided not to do it because If I had to take another test it would have been comps again, but I still might do that one. What I really want to do is study law and help the cause, save the poor. Interviewer: “I have a feeling you’ll do it.” 39:52 Yeah, I will Interviewer: “Now, for you’re your PhD you went to the University of Wisconsin?” Yes, the three masters and the PhD all from Wisconsin and I also taught there. I taught there for four years. Interviewer: “Did you—what was your involvement in sports during this time? Did you stay involved in some way, coaching or playing at some point?” Yes, in Madison they had all these leagues and I was in the league called the Major Major, so I played in that and what was interesting, there were two all American professional ball players that had been observing and they had to choose, they had to choose one player for recognition and I forgot, it was an all Madison bla, bla, bla and it was quite an honor and these two, Rusty was one of their names, and they chose me, which was interesting because they didn’t know I had played. 40:51 They saw my playing ability and then was honored and the Mayor was there and all the politicians played, we had two teams, and I got to play out there and was helping them with how to bat, some of them. Those things happened in Madison and I played every year and then I was in a serious car accident and I was a passenger. While rehabbing, for three years my back was in a brace and I had no use of this right leg, all of a sudden this tennis coach from China came up to me and said, “Toni, Toni, I teach you tennis”, and I said, “Oh, Mr. Chung”, and I was still in my brace you know, “I can’t” and he said, “Oh, no, no, no, I teach you tennis”, and I picked it up and I was so good at it that—I tried taking beginning classes and they kept putting me in advanced classes and what it was, was my hand eye coordination and I was very fast. 41:43 I just could outrun anything. 13 �Technically I didn’t think I was that great, but I would enter all kinds of tournaments and I would end up winning some of them, I mean I beat some number one people that were so skilled and so beautiful, they would hit the ball and pose and while they’re posing I’m running like some maniac hacking away keeping the ball in play. Anyhow, I got to love tennis and then I worked so hard at it and ended up being ranked in the state, 2nd in singles, 2nd in doubles, and 3rd in singles also, thought the years. Then I played national tennis tournaments and loved it, loved it, loved it and I never got ranked nationally because, even like Billie Jean King the retired pros enter that, so I played some of the pros that had been at Wimbledon and that and I can still see myself, I said, “Toni you have the reputation, your job is to wait, they would always say “good wheels, good wheels Toni”, your job is to be the retriever, the Golden Retriever, for all the balls they hit and to build them up”, anyhow they knew I was out there. 42:57 Interviewer: “If there’s anything another player hates, it’s the opponent that won’t give up.” That’s right, that’s true and one time the man observing and he said, my deportment was exemplary, he said anyone else would have run off the tennis court. I playing the number one seed and said, “you would have thought she was losing”, my attitude was so—I mean I was out there and if she lost a point to me, I hardly won a point I kid you not, if she lost a point she was devastated and here I was this happy little thing—people walking by, they thought I was winning half the time and here—I learned something, she was so miserable after the thing was over I said, “maybe you ought to think about not playing tennis for a while”, because she was just an unhappy person. Yeah, people couldn’t tell if I was winning or losing, but I never gave up. 43:55 Interviewer: “While you’re doing all this, getting your degrees, continuing to play softball, playing other sports, people didn’t know that you had been a professional baseball player at one point. Was it the movie that changed the recognition?” It was after the movie. Interviewer: “the movie we’re talking about is “A League of Their Own”.” “A League of Their Own”, and I did not see the movie until in the year 2000. I didn’t even know it existed. Like you said, “what had I done?” I was busy like really teaching a lot of children, helping anywhere I could help, in all kinds of things, sports, everything and also, did a lot with the poor, conducted workshops all over the country, I was flying all over the place giving talks and this and that, so I didn’t keep up with watching TV or anything and one day I’m watching this TV and I see this movie and I hear them singing our song and I thought, “my God that’s our group”, and I recognized some of the people, our players, at the end who were in the movie. 44:58 That was my first inkling of it and that was like in 2000 and they hadn’t found me, they didn’t know where I was. Interviewer: “Your name was different, you were a Sister.” 14 �Yes, Toni Ann Palermo and Sister—I think those who knew I entered probably thought that I could never come out and you know, come to anything and that I was gone forever Interviewer: “Incarceration” Yeah, so that first experience was, I think it might be seven years now that I was really found, found, but I forgot, was there a part of a question that I missed? Interviewer: “I’m asking, and you’re talking about it, that the movie end up changing your life thereafter. Once you were found.” Yes, all of a sudden one time on television, I saw this Mary O’Meara. Mary O’Meara was Mary Froning, who was a ball player on the, I think, the Blue Sox, a South Bend team, and she was in Madison and I was in Madison. 45.14 I played on her co-ed team and she had about seven or eight children, so that comprised her co-ed team, plus Mary, plus myself. I think there were nine or ten plus her husband and that was the team. I recognized her in tournaments, she was not on the same team I was on, in fact she was in a lower league. I don’t know how she managed to be down there, but she was in a lower league. We played against her and I recognized how smart she was out there and we just took to each other, but never, never sharing that we had played, so I played on her co-ed team, I taught her some tennis, she got involved in tennis and years go by. One day at church she sees me, Rockford was having a mini-reunion, she seed me and said,” Toni have you ever played professional ball?” I said, “yes”, and she said, “well, they’re looking for you”, and I said, “oh”. All those years we knew each other and she was going to all these reunions and never said a word because she didn’t connect it. 47:04 Interviewer: “Never put it all together.” Excuse me for scratching my nose, but that’s how and once they found me—so that’s how and I’m so grateful to be here with you and this beautiful group and have this privilege. Interviewer: “You get, I’m sure you get invitations now to speak?” Yeah Interviewer: “And a chance to teach?” Yes, yes and Jackie Baumgart and I were just honored at Alverno College because she graduated from Alverno and I graduated from Alverno and we were both in A League of Their Own or The American Girls Professional League and it was a sports orientation or fundraiser and we were honored and it was just about maybe a month ago or two months ago. Interviewer: “Do you get requests for autographs or stuff in the mail?” Oh, signing all the time, yes a lot. People are in awe, which it really touches you because it’s I don’t know, I’m humbled by it. I’m really humbled by it because it touches my heart that they think enough to want our autographs at something that we love so and we 15 �were privileged to do. 48:09 I grew up where women didn’t have the opportunities. However, in Forest Park, Chicago we had more opportunities than all these other states. Wisconsin was way behind, so I never felt the stigma that I was a girl and couldn’t do this and couldn’t do that. I was at every sport possible and anything I did I always succeeded. Swimming, number three in the state and half drowning some of the time you know, I was in everything and that’s because we had no limitations set on us and we were privileged, but other places were not. 48:52 Interviewer: “Women had a lot of limitations, that’s for sure. As you look now from the time you began as a professional athlete and you have a chance now to see the changes that have gone on in sports and in women professional athletes, do have some thoughts that you would like to share with us on what’s happened and where we are today?” Yeah, I’m in awe at the quality, the quality of, say in all sports, with the women. In awe with it, because when I came up to Wisconsin I was shocked at the level, it was so bad. I would go to the women’s basketball and it was so bad. I played before the Harlem Globe Trotters, that’s how good we were. We had the same teams that were during the summer, we played basketball and men’s rules at that time was, and girls rules were half court, and we played men’s rules and we played in front of all these crowds before the Harlem Globe Trotters. 49:57 Interviewer: “So you were a traveling basketball team?” Yeah, and we were quality you know, nothing bad. But I came up here and I would go to the games and I could hardly take it, it was bad, they shot poorly, they didn’t have that technique, nothing was there, and I have watched them through the years. I am in awe; I mean they are skilled today. I came up in 1970 and then 1970 to 1980 it wasn’t good and yet I could see them improving, improving and I see the volleyball the same, the basketball, softball, it is outstanding, I mean they are excellent and tough. I watch all the time, I watch all the top teams, Tennessee and all and UConn and the women, the level you know and I am really—I—they wouldn’t be there, something was lifted for them you know. 50:56 Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you the question I’ve asked others and you’re kind of leading into it, it is this. At the time, did you have an awareness that you were pioneering as a feminist in a sense, or a female athlete and now that you have a chance to look back, do you see that you were?” I don’t know how many thought that because we were put into it, we were focused and we loved it and we were so happy to be doing it that I don’t—maybe those that did not have as much as I did in Forest Park, I had no limitations, they maybe felt like they were pioneering, I did not think I was pioneering because I always did it, but as I look back now it absolutely opened doors and I think and the movie, even though it was 1992, it should have come a lot sooner to help some of the causes and I think it helped men to. 51:56 It helped young men, I think, believe in themselves and do more than they have 16 �ever done and help those that were skilled enough to get to a higher level. Now I see us as pioneers and definitely inspired some people. I get letters from young women and it’s touching, it’s touching and then when I meet someone and I’m signing up and it’s a little thirteen year old and say, “you know I was playing professional softball when I was thirteen. Now, I’m going to put a challenge to you bla, bla, bla,”, because let them see, let them hear--here’s this little person, tiny little thing and they’re coming and I was playing ball and I was getting at one time $75.00 a week, that was big-time. Interviewer: “At that time it was good money and you sent most of that home?” Oh yeah, and the coach, Norma Whitney and I, she was the second baseman and I was shortstop, she and I were, and I don’t know if there were others, but we would send our monies home and the coach said, “you know Toni I have to tell you, while you’re eating hot dogs and burgers, all the others are eating steaks and why aren’t you spending money on yourself?” 53.09 First of all I grew up with the mentality of poverty, so I didn’t think I was starving and it was important for me to send that home. My mother had died, my father was so distraught, and I just—it was not an issue. Yes, that was big money, seventy-five a week for a little fourteen, fifteen year old was very respectable. All and all the experience in the league and what it did for us personally, also, the women that you see here, they’re tough cookies you know, so they had that mentality. A lot of them went into professions, they were teachers, many of them were teachers, so can you imagine what people all got? 53:56 I had that same mentality, never do things by halves, not to be a quitter. There’s nothing like winning, I know they all say “put your guts into it “, but if you have been in sports there is nothing like winning, I’m telling you. Like you play three sets in tennis, killing yourself and then they say, ”well you got to the finals and went three sets”, but I’ll tell you, losing as opposed to winning, there’s nothing like winning that and I use to say, “why not, why not be able to win it?” What I did learn is, in softball too when I was coaching that, don’t say, “oh, if I can only get a hit”, I said say, “I’m going four for four tonight”, you know, shoot high. If you go four for four mentally, you might get three hits, but if you say, “if I only get one hit”, you’re lucky if you get a hit and that’s the same way—you know they say in tennis and in other sports, people, play not to lose, play to win, and when you play not to lose it’s a different game. 55:05 It’s too careful, and I remember, I was in this tennis tournament and I was winning, 5-2 and I only had two more sets to go and I remember saying, “Toni, only two more, one at a time, only two more”, and I lost 7-5 because I altered my game. I played not to lose and I thought just play one at a time and no, I had to have that same drive, that same intensity. What it teaches you in life, and it’s really interesting to me, is you have to maintain that intensity. If you watch football games and that, they can’t go four quarters, they fade out in the fourth quarter, so the name of the game is, you have to consistently hold it. I remember one time a ref was watching me play tennis and I was out against the number one player in a big national tournament and running my behinder off and I remember so distinctly that I wanted a point and it was spectacular, bam, bam, bam, and I won the point and then afterwards the referee said, “Toni, you know what? You have the ability to really be a winner in this, but what happens, you don’t consistently play every point the way you played that one point”. 56:26 So, I play that one point and maybe lose the next three and then zoom in there, so it teaches you 17 �discipline, and it really is a lost art today. The discipline of keeping going, keeping going, not settling for less and not giving in to that, you know, that’s life. All those principles that—you know life is not easy, right? Basically if you have the attitude and you have the consistency of discipline, life is a lot easier and you can take the bumps and you can kind of take the hard things and survive them and you move on, you move on. 57:02 Say, “I’ve been given this much time in life and I’m not going to let it drain me”, we move on. Interviewer: “I was just thinking, as an athlete, as someone who did succeed, you can say that to others and they will listen and in that sense the league helped you, it gave you credentials that you could use.” Yes, yes, that’s well said. It gave me the credentials and gave this belief that we are special and it’s imparted to the people, so we are recipients of that wonderful, wonderful gift that people have given to us. Interviewer: “And then you can pass it on.” I can pass it on. Interviewer: “Now, I think I have run out of questions, do any of the rest of you have thoughts or areas we should cover?” We want to give a standing ovation, clap, clap, and clap. Interviewer: “A wonderful job, a tremendous job.” I feel so privileged that I got to do this, really. 58:11 Interviewer: “I thought of one thing, I haven’t asked anybody about the umpires. Do you have some thoughts on umpiring?” Oh, let me think a minute. Of course you’re never too happy with umpping. Interviewer: “Who were the umpires?” They were always from the minor leagues. Interviewer: “The umpires traveled with you?” No, they were there. Interviewer: “They were from the neighborhood?” Yeah, I don’t think at that time—we were so disciplined at keeping your mouth shut that we didn’t—you know the chaperones could do the arguing, but I do remember one time they called a—I thought it was a balk, so I’m hollering balk, balk and thinking I should be awarded second base and meanwhile at the fourth they called me out because they’re tagging me out and I’m calling bla, bla, bla, I was so upset and that was the one and only time and I really argued. 59:00 I really had an I and I just knew and I called it. Well, you can’t call it the ump has to call it, so while I’m calling it their tagging me out and I’m 18 �just not about to move because they were in the wrong and there wasn’t a lot of arguing, I think because we were just like a—I was thinking, Jackie Robinson, he was told to zip it and we were told like that too because people would not have liked us if we were combative. I think they would have liked a spirit of maybe once and a while, but it’s a good question. Interviewer: “I’ve seen a couple pictures-- there where a couple at the league level that went after the umpires pretty good.” Yeah, and I believe they did. I think we just had to for the P.R. Interviewer: “You were ambassadors.” 60:00 Ambassadors, yeah, truly Interviewer: “Ok” Think of us highly now. Interviewer: “I will never say instructional again.” Never again and thank you so much Interviewer: “Thank you” 19 �20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_TPalermo Title A name given to the resource Palermo, Toni (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Palermo, Toni Description An account of the resource Toni Palermo was born and grew up in Forest Park, Illinois. When she was ten, her P.E. teacher encouraged her to try out for a professional softball league in Chicago. She played for a farm team until she turned fourteen when she joined the professional team. She was recruited into the All American Girls Professional Baseball League shortly afterward, and played two years with their barnstorming teams, the Chicago Colleens and the Springfield Sallies. Over the next several years she alternated between playing on AAGPBL teams and a Chicago softball team. She played shortstop throughout her career. She went on to become a nun as well as a teacher, and remained active in competitive sports. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Olson, Gordon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f44428bdbaf2a1931243b4780badf5ab.m4v ae6f957fd9952fea53c6dce45da76e29 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/deed70befdf3b38b9a3fc33495bf3e10.pdf 84678250c84c2a830a03bdffb992b967 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Sue Kidd Length of Interview: (00:30:31) Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 22, 2010 Born: Arkansas Interviewer: “Can you begin by telling us a little bit about your own background?” I was born to Marvin and Judith Kidd in 1933 and I was the fifth of six children, three boys and three girls. We lived on a farm at that time, a little place out in the country, and about the only recreation outside of work was playing ball, baseball. My dad was a great baseball player and my two older brothers and as I came along, I started playing also. Any free moment I had, we were playing ball. Interviewer: “Did your father have any professional or semi-professional experience?” He tried out, as a fairly young man, with the St. Louis Cardinals and had not been cut, but since he had a wife and two daughters at home already, he got homesick and decided he would rather be at home with his family and farm even though he loved baseball. 1:11 Interviewer: “When you were growing up and you were playing ball, were there a lot of girls playing ball?” No, I don’t know of any girls that played ball at all except myself. I mean they played basketball, but not baseball. There were no softball teams in that area. Interviewer: “Did you eventually play other sports too?” Yes, basketball and of course with the boys I played football, but just for fun. The coach would have liked to have me play football, but mother was against that. Interviewer: “In general how did people in the community and your family respond to your playing all these sports?” They just thought it was great and of course dad always had to show me off, throwing the ball to any stranger that came around and were interested and let me play with the men against the teams that were easier to beat I’ll say, he let me play. 2:06 1 �Interviewer: “Now how was it that you wound up becoming a professional ball player?” Well, I’ll try to make it short, but in school the guidance councilor was trying to get me interested in college courses and I always told her that I was going to play professional ball and she said, “but Sue, girls don’t play professional baseball”, and I said, “I don’t care”, and I kind of had the attitude that the good lord would see to that and one day in the spring of 1949, probably March, she came down and got me out of class and showed me a magazine. It was a Look or Life magazine, I can’t remember just which one, to show me about this league in the Midwest, so she quit trying to talk me into going to college. In June, Manis professional baseball scout, that my dad sent my older brothers to baseball school and would have sent me, but they had no facilities for girls. 3:06 He came up to make sure my dad took me to Little Rock, which is seventy-five miles south, to this game that these two girls teams were going to be playing because he thought I should tryout, so that’s where we went. I tried out before the game one afternoon, they wanted to sign me to a contract and send me home to leave with them after the game the next day, so we drove home, mother washed and ironed all night, found a suitcase to pack my luggage in, clothes in, and I had to get back to Little Rock to go through the vital statistics to get my birth certificate and luckily one of the home boys worked there and was kind of a supervisor in some department and he walked me through and he could vouch to when I was born because he lived in that community, so I was able to get it in one day. 4:05 Interviewer: “You didn’t actually have a birth certificate, one the doctor made for you?” No, I didn’t have a Social Security number until they were ready to pay me the first check, we were in Oklahoma somewhere and Lenny Zintak, the manager and one of the chaperones took me to someplace, I don’t know where it was, and I got a Social Security card. Interviewer: “When you were doing the tryout, were there a lot of other girls trying out or just a few of you?” I don’t really remember anybody else except myself that particular night. Interviewer: “How did they actually do the try out? Did they just put you up on the mound and say pitch?” No, they warmed me up on the side with a catcher, in fact I think it was Wimp Baumgartner and she was quite excited that I could throw the ball, throw a curve and then they let me tryout on the mound a little bit and hit a few balls and that was—they were ready to sign me. 4:59 Interviewer: “Some of the other players have told me that it was not all that common to pick up or add players in the middle of a barnstorming tour. Basically 2 �you have these two teams that are traveling around, just playing all different places and then they give tryouts, but you tried out and you got in there, so you must have been pretty good.” Everybody thought I was and I guess I had them fooled. Interviewer: “Once you signed up and joined the team, how old were you?” Fifteen. 5:26 Interviewer: “How did they take care of a fifteen year old girl?” Well, there were other fairly young ones and there were older ones. Of course we had chaperones and we had a terrific bus driver that was like a grandfather to us, and they assured my folks that I would be taken care of, I’d be supervised, and I was. I’m going to get off on a tangent now, but in the summertime my mother usually just cut my hair like I had a bowl on my head because I either played ball and had a ball cap on or I was swimming in the creek or horseback riding, so she didn’t try to curl it, so the first week on the tour some of the older ones said, “Sue, we’re going to take you to the beauty shop and get your hair curled”. I mean it was stuff like that and they helped me buy other clothes because I didn’t even have a lot of dresses and you really needed skirts and blouses to be able to change back and forth in. You could ride on the bus in blue jeans or shorts, but if you got off, you had to put on a skirt and I mean even at midnight. 6:33 Interviewer: “When the league started there were an awful lot of rules about conduct and dress and all of this. Were all of those still in place when you joined?” Not as many, you didn’t have to practice walking with a book on your head and stuff, but as far as the dress and being at curfew and stuff like that, drinking and smoking in public and stuff, they were pretty much in—but of course, we sneaked around and smoked, some of us. Interviewer: “Alright, where were the people on your team from? From all over the place?” Yes sir, all over and on the tour team I know we had them from the east coast. I don’t remember any people off hand from California. Most of them were already good enough to be in the league and of course these traveling teams were sort of like “rookies” teams for practice and sometimes they would even call one up off of the tour when there were injuries. 7:28 I remember Wimp Baumgartner, she was catcher, and Peoria’s catcher got hurt and she was shipped up to catch the rest of the season. Things like that did happen. Interviewer: “On this tour how far did you go or how far off did you range while you were going around?” Well, after they picked me up they traveled around to twenty-five different states. We went on—when they picked me up we went to New Orleans and circled back through 3 �Hot Springs and out through Texas, Oklahoma and I don’t know whether we came back through—it seemed like we went to southern Arkansas and went down to as far as Pensacola, Florida and wandered up the east coast to Virginia and some of those places and clear up into New Jersey and around in that area and finished the tour in West Virginia, Labor Day week-end. 8:23 Interviewer: “In the process do you actually—did you play in New York or go in New York City?” We got to go to the Yankee Stadium and see a couple of innings of games before we went to play in New Jersey and what I remember, now you have got to figure me a little country girl and we’re out here in New York, never been there, never been to that large a city, and we had a rained out night or something and one of the older ladies had been to New York City and she said, “I know how to take the subway”, we were staying in New York, New Jersey and we had to take the subway, and we were going to go over and see Times Square and some kind of show. There were twelve of us and six of us got on and the one that knew her way around didn’t make it and the six of us were scared to death, but somebody had enough sense to say, “let’s get off at the next stop and wait on them” and that’s what we did and we got back together. 9:25 The good lord was watching after us. Interviewer: “So basically the teams spent the whole season on the road going from one place to another?” All the traveling teams, yes. Interviewer: “You get to the end of the season and what happens?” Well you just—some of them—the bus was originally from around the Fort Wayne area and unless you left there, which I did and we brought the girl from Shreveport, Louisiana back, my brother, and my sister and her husband came to pick me up because I wouldn’t have known how to catch a bus back. I guess I could have been told, but my folks weren’t going to let that happen. We gave her a ride back to Shreveport, but the rest of them, a lot of them rode back to the Midwest on the bus and disbanded then. 10:13 Interviewer: “Now how did you communicate with your family while you’re traveling around to all these places?” Telephone and writing. Of course the folks had a schedule of where we were going to be and they sent a letter ahead by week or something like that. Interviewer: “That makes sense, so you’d get the winter off? You would go back home then for the winter?” Well, I had another year of high school. 4 �Interviewer: “So you go back to school. Does the season start then before the school year’s over?” Yes, I got permission to get out of high school to go to spring training. Interviewer: “Where did they hold spring training for you?” The first year that I went to spring training was in Cape Girardeau in Missouri. Before, when it was really going, a lot of fans before the war was over, they got to go to Cuba, Biloxi, Mississippi and a lot of places. 1 1:07 I got to go the first year to where did I say? Cape Girardeau in Missouri, but after that South Bend usually went ahead and practiced at home. The season got to starting a little bit later. That first year I went into the league, it started in April and after that it started more like in April, the first of May. Interviewer: “You moved from the traveling team, the barnstorming team and junior level teams, to one of the regular teams in 1950 and you had kind of a crazy set of assignments that year. Can you explain what happened to you that year?” 11:47 Okay, I went to spring training with Muskegon, we trained in Cape Girardeau with the Fort Wayne Daisies and I know my dad was thrilled to death to get to meet Jimmy Foxx, he was a professional and coached the Daisies. We played ball, we stopped off and played at different towns on our way back north, well, by the time we got to Muskegon, Michigan, they had us younger kids, at least two or three, staying with a family, they had rooms, and we didn’t even get to play the first game because they disbanded the Muskegon Lassies team. 12:30 As I understand it and what I can remember, is they had done away with men’s baseball during the war, that’s one of the reasons the league was formed, and they decided to bring minor league baseball back. That was my understanding and I could be wrong, so we had to move on. They sent me to Peoria, Illinois, the Red Wings, and I was there maybe five or six weeks and I had some very good games, I pitched a sixteen inning game I lost and it ended two to one and pretty soon South Bend traded for me and of course I didn’t know what was going on when they told me to report to somebody. They put me on the bus and I reported there myself. 13:12 Interviewer: “Did you spend most of your career with South Bend?” Yes sir, except I was on loan to Battle Creek one time for ten days or so. Interviewer: “How did that work, being on loan?” Well, I was disappointed at first, but I went over there and old “Mudcat Grant” was a former professional pitcher and he had a lot of confidence in me and he wanted to pitch me every chance—as soon as I had two or three days rest and wasn’t pitching, he put me in another position, so when South Bend called me back I was a little unhappy at first, but then we went on and won two championships and in the long run I was happy I went 5 �back to South Bend. I did get to play some first base and some other places before it was over, even in South Bend. 14:03 Interviewer: “When you were in South Bend, what kind of living accommodations did you have?” Well, the first year I roomed with another lady, a widow lady who had rooms there. After that four of us were able to get an upstairs apartment. One of the ladies, Wimp Baumgartner in fact, had a car and three of us didn’t, so we kind of paid to help with expenses and all. It gave us two bedrooms, a kitchenette and bath and everything. Interviewer: “The league did not have a problem with that in terms of supervision or anything?” No, because well, Wimp was a little bit older than the others and I was—I must have been seventeen that first year I lived in an apartment, but you were still supervised to a certain extent by the family who owned the building even when you were that young. We had to go through their front and up the stairs. 15:02 Interviewer: “Talk a little bit about your pitching career. You mentioned you had a sixteen inning game you pitched, did you pitch any no hitters?” I pitched a no hitter on tour, one error light of being a perfect game. Interviewer: “The record books also mentioned that you pitched the most innings of anyone in the league in 1953.” I don’t know, I pitched a double header too and won both games. Interviewer: “Now, you mentioned you were on the team for two championship seasons, can you tell me a little bit about those, what went on or what helped your team get ahead?” Of course the first one we won we had a full team and good pitchers and I had my starts and everything and I kind of hate to talk about the second one, but I will since this is history. The second championship I played on we had a terrific team. 15:56 the last game of the season we had a second baseman that she and the manager didn’t get along greatly and he was trying to rest her and some of the starters because we were already in the playoffs and I think it made her mad and she was sitting on the bench and had her spikes off and everything and I think I got on base and he called for her to go in as pinch runner and she wasn’t ready. Of course he saw it , that’s why he did that exactly, and they had a big dispute and he kicked her off the team for good. I mean the playoffs were going to start in just a couple days and it ended up that we lost seven players, five of them starters. Left fielder, center fielder, second baseman, first base pitcher, third baseman and another pitcher that walked off to support her and left us with twelve players. 17:06 6 �Interviewer: “So then what did you do?” We won the championship. Interviewer: “With just twelve?” Yes, with just twelve. When I wasn’t pitching I was playing right field usually and one night when I was pitching and I got in a little trouble, I had a left hand batter up that had hit me pretty hard and the manager’s wife, Jean Fout, a great star anywhere she played, was playing third base, she had to play third when she wasn’t pitching, and Elwood called time and put her in to pitch to the left hander, put me on third base, the only time I ever played third base in my life, and my knees were just shaking and he said, “you play in half way and don’t let her bunt one. We got her out and the next inning I went back in to finish the game. 17:56 That was—my knees couldn’t have shaken any worse. I would be threatened to be killed playing third base, right in on top of the batter. Interviewer: “But it was just for that one batter at least.” One batter and I don’t think I could have made it back out the next inning to play third base. That’s kind of a hot corner. Interviewer: “Over the course of time that you were playing with the league, what kinds of changes seemed to take place with it in terms of fan support or other things?” Well, the people had more things to do, television started coming in and attendance started dropping and that was eventually what killed the league of course, but also the baseball, I guess it was ten inches when I first started, and in the last year we played with just a regular baseball, which was in my favor because all my life I had played at home with a regular baseball. 18:56 I loved the little ball much better. Those were the main changes and I think things got a little bit looser as far as chaperoning and making sure you did this and you did that, but it was still a good game. Interviewer: “Were you planning on going back and playing in 1955 when the league shut down?” Yes sir, I could have cried my heart out. I just turned twenty at the end of that season and I figured I had a good nine or ten years left if it had gone on. I was just starting—I had a pretty good temper, I could get mad and I was starting to get to control it a little bit better. I would have liked to have another five years; I’ll put it that way. 19:47 Interviewer: “Were you surprised that it shut down or were you kind of expecting it?” Well, there had been rumors, yes. I know some of the trips we made that last year that we played, some of the time we were taken in cars instead of a bus, so yes. 7 �Interviewer: “What was the fan support like in South Bend?” It was real good when I first began playing and it started dropping off as it did most other places. Interviewer: “Now when the league itself shut down, what did you do at that point?” Well, I had already played basketball in South Bend with the South Bend Rockettes in 1953 and 1954, so I went home a few weeks and I had put my application in at Bendix Aircraft on that break and was called up in October for a job. I wanted to play basketball that year, but I needed the job, so I stayed on in South Bend and played basketball and worked at various jobs until 21:00 I promised my dad in 1959 that I would come back to Arkansas the next year and go to college. My younger brother started college, Church College, and he wanted me to go and I promised him in November. I went back to South Bend, I choke-up on this I’m sorry, but I promised him and that was the last time I saw him alive. He dropped dead of a heart attack on January the second, so I figured it would take me—I didn’t figure I could go then and pay my way, but I worked one more year and saved my money and I had some savings bonds and I said, “well, I promised him”, so the second year after he was gone I did go back, but I went to Arkansas State Teachers because it was cheaper and I could get some financial help after I went a year and realized I could make it because I had been out of high school—I was twenty-six then see. 22:02 When I decided I could make it, I was able to get loans and since I did go into education, I didn’t have to pay a lot of that back, so I was able to make it. Interviewer: “How does that work? You say you didn’t have to pay a lot of that back?” If you taught school, they were crying for teachers at that time, and if you went into teaching you only had to pay a very small percentage—I think I paid it off in about five years, so I worked also too. Interviewer: “You mentioned you were playing basketball and you were working for a company, did companies sponsor teams or how did that work?” No, they just tried to get you jobs with the—our business manager would ask around and get the players a job that needed them. I worked at Bendix, but then Bendix—there was a nose dive again, was it in the late fifties? 22:57 The economy kind of got bad, but I was lucky enough to always be able to get a job especially during basketball season. Interviewer: “Then how long were you a teacher?” Twenty-five years. Interviewer: “Where did you teach?” 8 �Well, I started out in a country school in Cass County, Indiana, out of Logansport and I went home for the summer and the superintendent from Logansport had a friend of mine that knew that I played softball with called me to see if I would come back and teach summer school, they needed another summer school teacher, so I was with my mother, but I had a sister living in Mr. Pleasant, Michigan with her family and brought mother back to visit up there and I taught school about five or six weeks. Before the summer was over the superintendent wanted me—he moved his staff around here in town because he wanted me to teach school in Logansport because he was for girls athletics and they were—that was before they really had teams and he was interested, it was through GAA and stuff, but he was interested in them being taught the rules and the skills of different sports, so then I taught in Logan the last twenty-four years. 24:15 Interviewer: “When you think back on your career as a baseball player, are there particular events or things that happened to you or people that tend to stick out in your mind or that come back to you that you haven’t really talked about here yet?” Well of course Lou Arnold was a fascination for me and an encourager, and I still give her a lot of credit. What I remember about her, about the first year of spring training there, of course I was use to playing with boys remember, and I was kind of who could get the ball first you know and one day when we were ready to warm up and everything, I dived in to get the ball and Lou just kind of said, “now Sue just slow down, there’s enough to go around, just take your time”, she was just always trying to encourage—on manners, “thank you”. 25:10 Raised on a farm with boys it’s kind of rude how we— even though I had a good mother and father , good disciplinarians, you still, you fought for what you thought was yours, so Lou helped me in a lot of things like that, I’ll say that. 25:25 Lenny Zintak, who was on the tour, and when I was on the tour I, was teased a great deal for of my southern accent and my hillbilly ways. I didn’t mind a great deal except sometimes I would almost be in tears. On my sixteenth birthday, when I entered the bus, he grabbed me and gave me a great big kiss, of course my face turned all read and I was about half way—he said, “now Sue”, he didn’t say it right there in front of people, but he said, “ I want you to realize when people kid you, they like you, so take that as a compliment”, and I always think that now too and I can thank Lenny Zintak for that. 26:08 Interviewer: “Going back at your career, how do you think that wound up affecting you, either the person you became or the kind of life or career you went into?” A great deal, I might never have left the state of Arkansas and I doubt that I would have even gone on to get a college education. All the friends you make and all the places you go and I kept in touch with a great deal of those friends and then when we started having these reunions—when would I have ever had a chance to be a small part of a movie like “A League of Their Own”, and get to pitch batting practice with Penny Marshall and stuff like that. 26:56 Interviewer: “How good of a hitter was Penny Marshall?” 9 �Well, she could hit the ball. It was not like some of the others that I had to hit the bat for them, the older boys. Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie it’s self? Do you think it did a good job?” I thought it did a good job and of course part of it was Hollywood. The Major never would have gone in the locker room and wouldn’t have been drunk like that they wouldn’t have allowed that. A lot of people thought that they never would have had a little boy like that, but Jean Fout and the manager were man and wife and sometimes if they didn’t have a baby sitter their little Larry was with us. I’ve got a picture of he and I on the steps of the dugout in Kalamazoo I think it was. I was tying my shoe and he was standing there helping me. 27:54 People that I’ve heard—I saw the movie and been a lot of places and given a little talk, even though I’m not a good speaker, about it and when somebody would bring up that I would say, “oh yes, there’s nothing false about that because we ourselves had a little boy and he traveled part of the time”. He had his own little uniform and that was based on him probably. Interviewer: “Speaking of pictures, I heard there was a publicity picture of you on a donkey, could you explain that?” Yeah, well it was during spring training and the manager said I was going out to so and so’s farm in the afternoon to have my picture taken on a donkey and I think they had a suitcase for me, I don’t think I had to take mine. 28:42 It was just for publicity and that was probably in 1952, it might have been earlier, when attendance was dropping, anything for publicity, we had to do anything, but I was supposed to be coming in for spring training riding my donkey and I was a little irritated because it wasn’t at least a saddle horse as I said, but that’s alright. They had a night, I guess it was baseball, running, pitching for accuracy, and they brought that darn donkey out and I had to ride him to the mound, there’s no pictures of that, but that crazy thing balked on the third baseline and I had to get off of him and lead him across and get back on him. I did because I was stubborn too and made him take me to the mound, but anything to try to help attendance. 29:39 Interviewer: “Now, do you think they ought to come and try to create a women’s national baseball league again?” That would be great for women who love baseball as much as I did and the rest of these ladies. Interviewer: “Do you think that’s something that’s likely to happen at some point?” I don’t know, you have got to have sponsors. Interviewer: “Do you pay much attention to like, women’s basketball for instance, there’s a professional league out there now?” 10 �Off and on, off and on--they play good basketball and I’d of liked to been able to play on that because I love basketball during basketball season like I love baseball during baseball season, so it would have been hard for me to choose, I’d of liked to play them both. 30:21 Interviewer: “Anything else you would like to add to the record here before we close out the interview?” I think we pretty well covered everything. Interviewer: “You tell a good story, so thank you very much.” 30:31 11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_SKidd Title A name given to the resource Kidd, Sue (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kidd, Sue Description An account of the resource Sue Kidd was born in 1933 in Choctaw, Arkansas. She got her interest in baseball from her father and two brothers who she played with regularly as a child. Growing up, Kidd played other sports too like football and basketball but eventually decided on a career in baseball following a meeting with her high school guidance counselor. In the spring of 1949, Kidd, at age 15, was scouted and tried out for a pitcher position in Little Rock, Arkansas. Beginning her professional career in 1950 Kidd played until 1954 when the All American Girls Professional Baseball League ended. At the start of 1950, Kidd played for the Muskegon Lassies, Peoria Redwings, and South Bend Blue Sox. In 1951, she played for the South Bend Blue Sox but then was on loan for a brief time with the Battle Creek Belles. From 1952 to 1954 she stayed with the South Bend Blue Sox. In that time, she pitched and won two double headers in 1953 and won two championships. She played pitcher, first base, and right field during her time with South Bend. When the league shut down in 1954 she went on to play basketball with the South Bend Rockettes until 1959 when she went on to pursue a career in teaching which did for twenty-six years. She wraps up the interview by discussing how baseball impacted her. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players-Illinois Baseball players--Indiana Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/746e90103525506d9addde930e24f34e.m4v a05b76cf1f886a9891f0fa73ad8b22ad https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1173e9a8169c4a0b0c562cd7db651a76.pdf dabe6d8795ce1346ac2e513491746740 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Rosemary Stevenson Length of Interview (00:41:40) Interviewed by: Frank Boring Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, August 30, 2008 Interviewer: “Can we begin with your name and where and when were you born?” My name is Rosemary Stevenson; I was born on July 2, 1936 in a little town called Stalwart, Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” I grew up on a farm and was the oldest of seven. A life I wouldn’t change, growing up on a farm was neat because, I don’t know, you have your own built in playground with the animals and even the chores. You grow up with a good work ethic also. 1:21 Interviewer: “Were you athletically inclined at an early age?” Yes, the neighbor kids had twelve and we had seven so, almost every night after our chores, we had a ball game going on in the field. Interviewer: “So you were playing baseball very early on?” Right. Interviewer: “And what position did you favor when you were a young kid?” I don’t know, we just played wherever there was a spot. We chose up teams and the leader pointed you out and you played there, just played. Interviewer: “What kind of equipment did you have?” Probably a flat old glove back then and whatever bat was lying around. 2:03 Interviewer: “What was your schooling like?” I grew up going to a one-room schoolhouse and I started there in the kinder grade and I went through the seventh grade and I skipped the eighth grade and went into high school in the little town of Pickford, Michigan. I graduated from there in 1954 and when I graduated on a Thursday night, on Friday my coach brought me to Grand Rapids and on Saturday I was playing my first professional baseball game. 2:42 Interviewer: “Oh my goodness, you jumped into this.” I jumped in, oh yeah. 1 �Interviewer: “Let’s back up a bit then. By 1950—you said you joined in 1954? The league had almost ended, and since 1943 there was already a league going. Did you know anything about the women’s professional baseball league?” I did not know about it until the spring of 1954. Interviewer: “How come? It was a pretty big phenomenon, wasn’t it?” Well, think maybe because I was in the Upper Peninsula and no scouts ever came up there. I accidentally was reading a softball rulebook and in the back it said, “Women’s Professional Baseball” and it gave a name and an address in Fort Wayne, Indiana so, I wrote to them. 3:41 Interviewer: “Hold on a second. I know this is going to sound like a very stupid question, but why were you interested?” I was always interested in playing ball, but it just interested me all the more when I found out there was women’s baseball. At that point I had been playing organized softball since I was eleven. Interviewer: “By organized softball, it’s similar to what we have today, just neighborhood teams playing against other towns and things like that?” Yes. Interviewer: “But there was no real—the organized leagues, were they part of your school or just community type teams, the softball?” They were community, each little community had their own girl’s softball team and they traveled around, usually on a Sunday afternoon and played one another. 4:47 I played in a league that was the team that I played with was the Sault Lockettes out of Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan and we played in a league with the Canadian teams, which was a much faster fast pitch league and we call, “Across the river”. 5:07 Interviewer: “Did you have any—you knew that men had professional baseball? You also knew that women couldn’t play in men’s baseball? Was there any sense of, ”Gee, I wish that I could play professional baseball”?” There might have been, in my heart, but it wasn’t brought forward until I read about that there was a league. Interviewer: “I guess you wouldn’t think about it because there was no chance of it?” Right. 2 �Interviewer: “So, you found this book and you read in the back of this book that there actually was a professional league so, before you jump into it, what happened after you saw that?” Well, I wrote to the gentleman’s name and address, and I don’t remember his name now, in Fort Wayne, Indiana and they sent me a letter back and said, “We are having a try out camp in Battle Creek, Michigan”, and I believe it was the 13th, 14th and 15th of May of 1954 and, “If you are interested come on down, and if you make a team we will pay all of your expenses”. So, I went there. 6:23 Interviewer: “How did you get there?” By my coach, he took me down there—this gentleman was a real neat guy, he was a fullblooded Chippewa Indian and loved helping kids and fortunately he was my coach. He took me down there and there was a tryout from Friday, Saturday and Sunday and we did everything: run, throw, catch. Interviewer: “I want to back up before you get into that. He brings you by car?” Yes. Interviewer: “Give me a visual of—I remember from the movie, ‘A league of Their Own”, when Geena Davis and her sister walk on and she suddenly sees the big baseball league, what was your experience like when you arrive with your coach, try to give me an idea, the visual of what you saw?” What I saw was a lot of girls out there to try out for teams. There were a hundred and six of us from the Midwest that had come there to try out to see if we could make a team. Like I said, we went through all the routines, we ran, we batted, we slid, everything so they could see how we could perform and then on Sunday they said they would post our names. On Sunday, six of us made it. 8:00 Interviewer: “While you were there doing the tryouts, were you in any kind of a uniform or did you wear regular clothes or what were you wearing?” Blue Jeans and T-shirt. Interviewer: “Most of the women were just in clothes that they could slide into base or hit the ball or anything like that?” Right. Interviewer: “Did it seem to you that it was very well organized?” Yes, it was, very much so and there were a lot of coaches and managers around there watching all the time. They were just, I assume, like the big league was, watching for the best talent. 8:43 Interviewer: “What did you feel that you excelled at?” 3 �My coach said, the thing that I excelled there at, was my arm. He said that when I—there were two balls from the outfield that they hit out there and when I hit the perfect strike to home plate, that sealed it. Interviewer: “He drove you back?” Yes. Interviewer: “What was the conversation in the car like?” Well, he was excited. They had told me right there that I was accepted by the “Grand Rapids Chicks” and I would be getting a contract in the mail for my parents to sign. Interviewer: “Why for your parents to sign?” Because I was a minor. Interviewer: “Ah, how old were you?” Seventeen and so he was excited that I had gotten that far and was chosen to play professional baseball. 9:31 Interviewer: “Did he know very much about the league?” He didn’t know any more than I did. Interviewer: ‘Ok, how did your parents react to this?” Well, my dad was never one to really speak out about anything I did really so, he never really said too much. My mom had pride and she came back down when my coach brought me down to Grand Rapids, she came along, but my dad never saw me play professional baseball. 10:05 Interviewer: “He was a farmer?” Yea, a farmer and he worked off of the farm also. Interviewer “So, the contract came in the mail finally?” Yes. Interviewer: “And how much were you paid?” I was paid fifty dollars a week, plus expenses. Interviewer: “So, give me an idea of the process of getting into the “Grand Rapids, Chicks? You went to the tryouts, you made the cut of six out of 120—“ It was a hundred and six. Interviewer: “That’s pretty amazing, you’ve got the contract, you’ve signed it, alright, where did you go and what was the first stage of your becoming a professional baseball player?” 10:47 4 �OK, I got the contract, my folks signed it and we sent it back and we got a letter saying to report, it was like the Friday after I graduated, I graduated on a Thursday night in May of 1954, and I don’t remember the date, but it was like the latter part of May so, Friday we left the Upper Peninsula, my coach, my mom and I and they had a place already set up for us. We stayed with families that would rent us a room for five bucks, and so we went there and first we checked into the office, the business office, and they gave us some details etc. about what I was supposed to do, which was—I would get a uniform, come back and pick up the uniform and then check with this address because that’s where in on Prospect St. in Grand Rapids. Then when I had the uniform, I was to be in uniform on Saturday morning for warm-ups and the game would be Saturday night and it would be up to Woody English, the manager, to put me in the line-up. 12:09 Interviewer: “Now, some of these questions are going to sound stupid, but I’m trying to get to as much detail as possible. There is already an existing “Grand Rapids Chicks” team and they have a pitcher and a catcher and fielders and all that, How many women were actually on the team, I know how many actually play at a given game, but how many were actually on the team that you can recall?” I say there were maybe fifteen on the roster. 12:33 Interviewer: “So, not everybody could play in a given game?” Right. Interviewer: “You’re the new kid on the block. What was your first game like? Let me go through it, first you got the uniform? Where did you get that?” From the business office. Interviewer: “Ok, Did it fit?” Yup, they ask you the size. Interviewer: “Describe in detail the uniform. What did it look like?” It was the—home uniforms were white with blue trim, our away uniforms were gray with blue trim and they carried them with them, they took care of them and laundered them so I didn’t have to take care of them as far as laundry or anything like that, but we had two uniforms to wear. You had your cap and you had what they called your little blue bloomers that you wore underneath. No sliding pads. 13:41 Interviewer: “You were wearing skirts.” We were wearing skirts and they were—it was embarrassing to wear as I grew up as a farm girl and was used to wearing blue jeans. When you put a skirt on that’s probably knee length, you feel like you’re undressed. 5 �Interviewer: “Well, in those days—this is before the mini skirts, this is before women wore skirts that short and here you are parading out in front of thousands of people, I can imagine it must have been—what about the shoes, the socks, did they come up to the knee?” Right, they came up mid-calf and the shoes were our regular baseball spikes that we had. 14:20 Interviewer: “Were they cleats?” Yes. Interviewer: “Ok. So, you now have your uniform and how did you get to, because I assume your coach is now back home, how did you get to the baseball diamond?” I was close enough to walk. I would walk to the baseball diamond. Interviewer: “Had you met any of the other girls yet?” Not until the first day that I got in the ballpark. Interviewer: That’s what I want to get at now. You’re the new kid on the block, you’re from the Upper Peninsula, a farm girl, what was the reaction of these professional baseball players to you when you first got there?” When I first got there I was introduced by the chaperone to all the girls and vice versa, and you know, you seem to be accepted, again you’re the new kid on the block, but through the course of that summer you were not really accepted by the pros so to speak because the rookies always felt that they had the feeling that we were going to take their job away from them. If there was a party or a get together or something, you were never invited with them, so you were kind of a loner. 15:42 Interviewer: “Were you with other rookies?” There was one more rookie. Interviewer: “Did you start a relationship with that person?” Not really, not really, I started—I actually started a relationship with—there were five girls that had graduated that same year from local schools in Grand Rapids that came to the games and we started kind of started jelling together. They kind of took me around town, you know. 16:13 Interviewer: “You mentioned a chaperone, now I know what it is, but for the record, what was the chaperone?” 6 �Dolly Hunter was out chaperone, she was a real neat lady, I mean she was like a surrogate mother for one thing, and she also made sure that we represented the league well in our dress, our actions and our voice, how we talked. 16:41 Interviewer: “Did you have clothing requirements, because you made mention earlier that you felt comfortable in blue jeans and a t-shirt, were you allowed to go out in public that way?” No. If you were not around the ballpark, you could because nobody knew who you were, but if you were, say for instance, an example would be if we were traveling, we traveled by leased station wagons, Orson Coe leased them to us, if you had to stop to go to the restroom and you were wearing shorts, you had to have a wrap around skirt or something to put on to go out of the van or the station wagon to go to the bathroom. You couldn’t be seen smoking in public, but you had to be dressed like a lady. You know the same thing, if you came out of—after a game and you came out of the clubhouse, then you better have a skirt and blouse on. You didn’t come out of there in slacks or blue jeans. 17:47 Interviewer: “What happened if you did?” You probably would have been suspended from the games or something. Interviewer: “So, there were penalties, and that was made clear to you?” Yes, and how strict the penalty was—we can jump back to the—in the tryout camp we had, there was one young lady from Wisconsin was super good, she would have made a team anyplace, but she broke the rules, she went out on the fire escape and had a cigarette and the next day she was on the bus home. 18:18 The rules were very strict. Interviewer: “Did you have to go through—because I know that, in the research that I have done, that you had a kind of a charm school?” No, that was gone by the time I came. Interviewer: “But, they did instruct you in terms of your behavior and made it clear that you had to dress a certain way and you couldn’t smoke and all those sort of things?” Yes. Interviewer: “Let’s go right to your first day, your first actual game, do you remember whom it was against?” I think it was Kalamazoo. Interviewer: “What was that experience like? You got to the ballpark, you say you walked there, you got there—“ 7 �Well, the first game, my coach and mom were still here so, I got a ride with them and they got to see the first game I played in. We went to the park, which was South Field, and got dressed in the clubhouse and the manager said, “I’m going to put you in the lineup tonight, your mom and coach are here and I’m going to put you in the lineup”. I played right field so, I honestly don’t remember if I got a hit or not. 19:34 Interviewer: “But, you must have been excited, you coach was out there and your mom was out there and it was your first professional—you’re getting played to play baseball?” Yes, yes, it was exciting. A dream like you never thought was going to happen. Interviewer: “What was the next game like? It doesn’t have to be the very next one, but early on as you’re starting to play the first few times. You played in seasons right?” Yes, we played every night of the week and double headers on Sunday and at that time there were only five teams and you would have an open day once in a while. As I got more comfortable with the league and with the team, I dealt and I did pretty well. I don’t know if I’m jumping ahead of your story, but I batted 223, I had three home runs for a rookie, I don’t remember how many runs batted in or anything like that, but it seems like it was seven I’m not exactly sure, but I felt a little more comfortable of getting to the plate, of playing positions, mainly I was a utility outfielder and I usually played either right or left. 20:54 Interviewer: “How good were the other teams?” Very good, it always seemed like when we went against Fort Wayne it was a chore because they had good players and Rockford was the same thing. Interviewer: “That’s the “Rockford Peaches”?” Right. Interviewer: “They were probably the most famous.” Right, but Fort Wayne had some real good hitters and they had some good pitchers too. So, it was—they were all, I think, evenly balanced, so the games were good. Interviewer: “What kind of crowds were you drawing?” When I first got there, in the first part of the season, the crowds were really not good. I mean—I’m guessing maybe a thousand people some times—it depends who you were playing, but I do remember towards the end of the season, standing in the outfield in Rockford and counting a hundred and twenty five in the stands. So, you knew something was going on, but you didn’t know what. 21:54 8 �Interviewer: “What was the reaction of the crowds, from your own personal perspective, not what you have read about, but from your personal perspective, what was the reaction of the crowds to your team and the teams that you were playing? They came there to see women’s baseball, were there hecklers? Were people laughing?” No, by the time that I got there, they were behind the teams, I mean they were shouting for them, there were certain players that they were really shouting for and it was neat. There was no heckling, no carrying on or anything like that and the kids would come there and they would want you to sign their arm or a baseball or something so, it was neat. 22:39 Interviewer: “Were there a lot of younger kids?” Yes there was and there were a lot of people who would follow, if we were playing say Kalamazoo, or maybe South Bend or any of those, they would follow the team and be right there when we played that night. Interviewer: “How far did you have to travel to play games? Were you basically within a certain tri-state area?” Midwest, just the Midwest area and I think the furthest one that I traveled to, when I was playing, was Rockford, Illinois. We had South Bend, Rockford, Illinois, Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids and Fort Wayne, at that time, that were still in the leagues. 23:27 Interviewer: “Did you get a chance, when you traveled to other towns, did you get a chance so socialize with the other teams or go out and see what the town looked like, or were you pretty much driven there, play a game, go to your hotel and come back home?” It all depends if we got there late at night. You might be bushed, so you want to go to bed and didn’t feel like doing anything. I liked to get out and walk around the towns and back then you could walk around the towns. I did meet different people there and they weren’t the ball players, it was usually local people. 24:03 Interviewer: “Did you let them know you were a baseball player?” Yes. Interviewer: “And what was their reaction?” Kind of surprised and yet some were—“Oh yeah, we know about the ball team here in town.” It was just nice to meet and talk to the local folks. Interviewer: ‘Was there much media coverage, from your experience playing the games, did you see cameras, did you see people with movie cameras, Movietone news for example was the thing of the day, you would go to the movies and there 9 �would be Movietone News and I’ve seen of course, a lot of this film footage of yours, “There’s the diamond gals, can you hit the ball?” A kind of condescending kind of attitude, did you ever see any of the media there?” I never saw any. Interviewer: “Were you interviewed by the newspapers at that time?” Yes. Quite a few articles were written up in the newspapers and then radio—went on radio different times. Probably three times I was interviewed in the Upper Peninsula at the radio stations there and the local papers up there, plus the local papers here. 25:10 Interviewer: “What were some of your memorable games?” I guess the one that really sticks out in my mind is when we were playing Fort Wayne and I was playing center field at that time and one of the Foss girls, actually all of the Foss girls were really big farm girls and when they hit that ball you might as well stand next to the fence because it was going to go out. This one she hit one to the center field, actually the right center, and I remember going up the wall to get it and saved a home run. 25:42 That to me stood out in my career. Interviewer: “did you get a big reaction from the crowd?” Oh yes, It was oohs and ahs, and she didn’t get the home run. Interviewer: “Your time out in the outfield you spent of course, fly balls are coming out there, you’ve got balls that hit out into there. What were the most difficult ones to field? Pop ups are obviously easy to catch, what were some of the ones that you found—you were saying to yourself—oh, oh, there’s one of those coming at me?” Well, sometimes it would be if it was like a line drive that missed the infield, got by the infield, that was—it hits the ground and you don’t know where it’s going to go so, you’re trying to out judge the ball. That would be the ones or the ones that you would lose in the sun. 26:41 Interviewer: “Now you had a good arm so, from the outfield you could actually hit home plate?” I could hit home plate or I could hit it on a bounce, depending on the distance. Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier, since you were the rookie, there was this sense the pros a little bit reluctant to be involved with you because you were there to take their job or they just weren’t friendly, did that change at all during the course of your time with the “Chicks”?” 10 �I think it changed after the league folded. I became good friends with some of the old timers, formers and I think it has you know, it has changed somewhat now that we come together as a group and the group is getting smaller, unfortunately and with our reunions that we have every year, you got to know the other players a little bit better, because you’re in the—for a week-end you’re in a hotel someplace, and you’re getting together at mealtime and just sitting around talking. You get to know them a little bit better and I think after the league folded, I think, at least myself, I got to know the players better. 28:04 Interviewer: “Did you actually get to talk to that Foss girl that hit that, what she was a home run, and you caught it?” Oh, I’m sure I did, but I don’t remember. Interviewer: “What was your coach like?” He was a good coach, yes. Being my first year I learned a lot from him. Interviewer: “You know the movie, the Tom Hanks movie, the Penny Marshall movie and I know it was an exaggeration, I know it was a movie, there was a sense of a male coach having to coach female baseball players. Did you feel anything like that with your coach? What was his background for example?” 28:43 He played for the Cubs, he was a shortstop for the Cubs and I didn’t feel anything like what they portrayed in the movie, like Tom Hanks. You know, he would scream at us once in a while, but he probably had a right to, but I never saw him go through the shenanigans like Tom Hanks did. 29:12 Interviewer: “At the conclusion of a baseball game, at least when I was playing baseball in little league, each of the teams would line up and you would shake their hand, did that same thing happen to you?” The same thing, yes. Interviewer: “So you got a chance to see eye to eye, some of the people you played and were up against? But again, there was no socializing afterwards though?” They didn’t encourage socializing and going out afterwards. That again, was against the rules. 29:48 Interviewer: “Did you ever break any of those rules?” No, I don’t recall ever doing that. Interviewer: “So you guys never went out for a beer party or anything like that?” No, I’m not a beer party person. Interviewer: “How many seasons did you play?” The last year. 11 �Interviewer: “And that was how many months?” It was May through September. Interviewer: “So, now you’re getting towards the end of September, what were you told in terms of, the season is over with and since 1943 there has been a new season and a new season, were you told that there was going to be a new season?” No, we had no idea that the league was going to fold other than what I said about Rockford, less fans in the stands, there were just different things that were kind of going on, but nobody told us anything. In December we got a letter stating that the league had folded and there would be no more baseball for women. 30:52 Interviewer: “What were—before we get to that letter, it’s September, the season is now over with, what were you planning to do? Go home?” Well, I had already gone home. We were playing in the tournaments at the end of the season and we were playing against Fort Wayne and Fort Wayne loaded their lineup. We played one game against them and we had to play another game and Woody didn’t like it when he found out they were stacking the line up and he pulled us out and he brought us home, so we walked out on the tournament, so I packed up and I went back home to the Upper Peninsula, got a job with the idea that I would be back playing ball for somebody until I got that letter in December. 31:51 Interviewer: “What was your reaction?” Broken hearted, I was thinking, “One year and the dream bubble’s broken so, where do you go from there”. Interviewer: “Were you, and I realize that you were very young, were you anticipating a career, a full blown career as a professional baseball player?” I guess I just thought I would play as long as—I hoped the league would be there a long time so I guess the idea was yes, I did have that dream. 32:33 Interviewer: “Did you have alternative plans?” No, no. Interviewer: “At seventeen you very rarely do. So, you’re thinking that you’re going to be playing professional baseball for the conceivable future, into you twenties or whatever you can, and then you get the letter telling you it is over completely. Did you ever try to find out why or what happened, or did you just accept that it was over with?” Well I did, this one young lady that I was good friends with in Grand Rapids, her father was on the board and so through her I did find out the league just didn’t have any financing. 33:10 They couldn’t afford to pay the salaries anymore so therefore, they 12 �disbanded, again the men came back from being in the war, television, people were buying television sets and watching that instead of coming out to the ball games, and the gas was not rationed anymore. That was another issue that we had, that it was rationed and you only got so many gallons and so, people were getting out and doing other things instead of going to the ball parks. And so, it just—the era had died, which is unfortunate it happened. 33:50 Interviewer: “What did you end up doing then as a job, you’re only eighteen years old or something, what did you decide to do for a living?” Well, when I went back to the Upper Peninsula, I got a job in a restaurant and I decided I wasn’t going to do that the rest of my life. So, I came back to Grand Rapids and again through this friend and her family, I got a job at Keeler Brass and I worked there for probably three or four months and I was allergic to the oil on the drill presses, and one of the girls that I was playing softball with, here in Grand Rapids, said, “We got some openings at the telephone company”, and I said, “Well, I don’t want to be a telephone operator”, and she said, “No, you don’t have to be—I work in the office and connect the wires in there that supply dial tone and that’s the kind of work I do”, and she said I should go and apply so, I went down and applied and the next day I’m working at the telephone company. 34:49 I worked there for thirty four and a half years and I retired from there. Interviewer: “You mentioned softball so, you went right back into playing again?” Yes. Interviewer: “This time for a Grand Rapids area team?” I played for Grand Rapids Bissell and I played for Michigan Bell. I coached both teams, I coached and played softball for fifty-two years and I played a lot of my softball in Zeeland, Michigan, the Zeeland league out there. 35:25 Interviewer: “So, baseball still, even though you couldn’t play professional baseball, it’s still a major part of your life.” It is, yes. Interviewer: “What was the appeal?” I don’t know. Interviewer: “I know this is a funny question, but to devote your life to a particular sport—I understand that you’re athletic and you enjoy athletics and all, but what is it about baseball?” 35:49 I don’t know, just the sport. You know it’s funny because the class prophesy, you know they write it up in the year book, I was supposed to be playing basketball for the “Redheads” out west and I never played basketball in my life, but my dad was an umpire for baseball and we went around every Saturday afternoon where he was umpiring and he 13 �actually coached baseball teams, the men’s baseball teams. I had two uncles that were pitchers so, it’s in the family you know, and my siblings are the same way, they have all played in the sport. I love working with young kids when it comes to softball and I was varsity softball coach for Muskegon Catholic Central for two years and I don’t know, it’s just there. 36:40 Interviewer: “I think you answered it. How do you think your experience, even though it was very short, how did that experience change your life, or did it change your life or have some kind of an effect on your life? You obviously went back into baseball again and you‘ve tried to instill in young people your love for the game, but that one season, did it have any effect on you in terms of your life?” Well, probably coming from a small community, it probably allowed me to reach out and broaden my circle of friends. 37:24 Interviewer: “So, being from a smaller community, you went out into the world so to speak. Were you very shy as a child?” No. Interviewer: “So, you didn’t have any problem getting into that?” No. Interviewer: “What do you say to young girls today about your experience? I imagine a lot of these girls playing ball may not even know—I’m amazed at the number of college students that I talk to that had no idea there was women’s professional baseball. Do you find that there’s—the younger people you talk to, are they aware of what you did and the fact that there was a professional league?” A lot of them are not. I go around with a friend of mine who played pro ball with Kalamazoo, we go around and talk to schools and quite often the teacher will have them watch the movie, “A League of Their Own”, so they can ask us questions and they’re in awe as much as their parent because their parents haven’t seen it and they didn’t know there was women’s baseball. So, there are still people out there who are not aware that we’re even around. People say, “Why didn’t you ever talk about it before?” But, nobody listened because they thought we were playing softball. 38:53 Interviewer: “Well, The Library of Congress is interested so, as of this particular interview and the ones we’re going to do with your fellow ball players, I think it’s an important part of American history and I am very, very pleased that we got a chance to sit down and talk. 39:10 I have a couple more questions for you though, This is kind of a difficult one to answer because it’s going to require you to really give some thought to—do you think the experience of women’s professional baseball had an effect on the way that women today, and even right after you, the opportunities that were opened up as people saw a woman get up and hit a home run or to slide into a base and have a crowd go nuts, just like a men’s team. Do you 14 �think that the women’s professional baseball league had any affect on the progression, if you will, of the opportunity for women?” 40:02 I think we did. I do believe that we opened the door for women in sports. We didn’t know it at the time, but I honestly think that was the beginning. Interviewer: ‘What about things like women having more opportunity to go beyond being a nurse, being a teacher, being a homemaker, do you think the fact that they saw baseball, and you maybe didn’t even think about it at the time, I’m asking you to think about it now, the fact that people saw women doing something that a man could do might of opened up some opportunities for—somebody might say the don’t want to be a baseball player, maybe I’ll be a basketball player, or maybe I’ll be this or I’ll be that?” 40:47 I believe it also opened the door for them, it allowed the young ladies follow their dreams, whatever their dream was. Interviewer: “I couldn’t have asked for a better ending right there. That’s just wonderful, just wonderful. Are there any other things that you can think of that you would like to say—something that happened in a game or just a commentary that you have before we close?” I just thank god that I had the ability and the opportunity to play professional baseball. Interviewer: “Rosemary, it’s been a real delight, thank you so much.” 41:26 Thank you. 15 �16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_RStevenson Title A name given to the resource Stevenson, Rosemary (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stevenson, Rosemary Description An account of the resource Rosemary Stevenson was born on July 2, 1936 in Stalwart in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Growing up she loved to play baseball with the neighborhood kids. Before entering the All American Girls Professional Baseball League she played for the Sault Lockettes. She first heard about the All American Girls from a baseball scouting book and then tried out in Battle Creek in summer 1954. After tryouts she signed with the Grand Rapids Chicks and played both left and right field. One of her career highlights during the 1954 season was saving a home run against Fort Wayne Daisies. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-06-10 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8921f48040d18127e74132c5ad31d28f.m4v 548ff88ad838ecd57ef4d0631e928b7c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09c1c776e2a47e32dc3194ecc9a53bf7.pdf 80d6675ca4cb261b509390a95a53ff64 PDF Text Text Ozburn, Dolly Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Dolly Ozburn Length of Interview: (01:28:07) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay, Dolly. Start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Charlotte, North Carolina. Actually, Mecklenburg County. I was… Interviewer: “What year?” 1937. And I was a premature baby. I weighed a pound and three ounces. Interviewer: “Wow.” And the doctor said that…He came three days after and said, “She won’t make it. So we won’t even fill out a birth certificate. We will wait until she passes away, and we’ll fill out the birth and death certificate at the same time.” Well, he’s gone, and I’m still here, so…And I tell the kids when I talk to them, “Don’t ever give up.” And I tell them that story. And I had a little second grade boy who wrote me a letter after I spoke with them and said, “I learned a lot about you, and I learned a lot about baseball. And I learned that you were born before baseball was invented.” So…So I guess maybe I’m pretty well-preserved. (1:23) Interviewer: “Okay, so did your family ever tell you how they managed to keep you alive while you were that little?” It was difficult. My mother was sick also. So my aunts and great-aunts and my grandmother came in, and they all had to help because it was a twenty-four hour a day job. I had one drop of milk every half-hour, and all I could take was a drop because at twenty-four weeks, which is what I was, you have no ability to suck, you have no ability to swallow, you have no eyebrows, no eyelashes, no fingernails, no toenails, and only my face was ossified. (2:04) The back of my head was not, so they had to keep me on a pillow to keep me from hitting my head. And there are people who claimed I must have hit my head. A lot of them. And I had one drop of water every half-hour. Every half-hour. So I had a drop of milk, let’s say, at seven o’clock, 7:15 a drop of water, 7:30 a drop of milk, and 7:45 a drop of water. So you could see it took twenty-four hours a day. And to keep my skin from breaking and bleeding because it was so thin, they bathed me in olive oil four or five, six times a day or whenever my skin got dry, they had to bathe me in olive oil. Interviewer: “Wow.” 1 �Ozburn, Dolly And I talked to a doctor who does this now full-time and—in my area—and he said, “That’s really strange that they knew to do that.” He said, “Because we do that.” He said, “We have—” He said, “We can do that when the baby can’t go in isolation.” And I was never in an incubator. Never in a hospital because the hospitals couldn’t do anything for you then. And my dad’s handkerchiefs became diapers. Of course, there probably wasn’t very much there, but my dad’s handkerchiefs became diapers, and they kept me in a shoebox on the stove. On the woodstove. On the thing of the woodstove to keep me warm. Of course, being born in June was a plus. You know, I didn’t have winter to deal with, so…And I don’t know how long…I was very small up until I was probably thirteen years old, and then I started growing then. Interviewer: “Wow. Okay, so…But were you able to go to school on the regular schedule? I mean, when you’re six years old, you could go, or…?” Oh, yes. Yeah. I did everything on schedule. (4:03) As far as…Well, they took me to the doctor for probably regular check-ups, but I was never hospitalized or anything like that, and …Oh, yeah, I went to school on a regular schedule. I was a tomboy from day one, and in school, as a matter of fact, I probably would’ve been on drugs now if I…I was very, very, very active. In school they let me stand up in the back of the room to read or to lean over my desk because I couldn’t sit in the desk very well. And I always wanted to be outside playing with the boys. I was outside in the morning early, and I never came in. They had to drag me in for lunch. I had a dog named Pee Wee, and Pee Wee…My dad taught him to bark. That’s the only way he could find me because when I was going in the morning, I was going. I was either on the ball field or up a tree or something. And my dad taught the dog to bark. The dog was always with me. And he taught the dog to bark when he whistled. And when he whistled, the dog barked, and they knew where to find me. Either up a tree or at the ball field or wherever. At the ball field that we built. We built our own ball field. Our…our group. And I just played with the kids in the neighborhood, and… Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your family doing for a living at that point?” My dad actually worked in an asbestos mill. He cut meat on Friday night and ran his own business on Saturday, so…And my mom was a stay-at-home mom. She had worked up until I was born, and then it took too much time to take care of me as an infant. And she worked…She was also working the mill, and…She didn’t work in the asbestos mill though. She worked in the hosiery mill. And my brothers and sisters did try to keep me in line. My brother…He helped me learn to play ball, but he didn’t always help the right way. He broke a rib of mine once throwing—hitting a ball at me. It hit me in the rib. So I picked the ball up and threw it back at him. And so he was never…He was always—He was helpful but not always. Interviewer: “All right. Now were there other girls who would play, too, or was that just you?” There were, I think, three or four girls in the neighborhood that played. Then when we moved when I was in the fifth grade…Well, I got my first glove when I was five years old. (6:38) My dad took me down, and that was pretty expensive then to buy a glove because my dad only made 2 �Ozburn, Dolly probably forty dollars a week in the mill, and …So he took me down and bought me a first base mitt, and my brother played first base in high school, so…And he played first base even younger. And I thought that’s what I wanted to be, but my dad was a pitcher. He pitched for the Presbyterian—He pitched for the ARP church. All the churches had teams then, and my dad was a pitcher for the Statesville Avenue ARP Church, and…My brother was a first baseman in high school, and…So after my dad bought the glove, then we just played around the neighborhood. We built our own field because we didn’t have any place to play. And I pretty much took all my dad’s lumber and nails and stuff, and we built a backstop. We built benches for us to sit on. We built a place for the fans to sit. We didn’t have any fans, but we built it anyway. So we had a hump in the middle of the field; we couldn’t get that out. So if you were playing shortstop, look out for the hump because the ball would be coming and you would reach down, and pretty soon here it comes at your head, so you either had to duck or get your glove up there fast. (7:57) And there were only about six or eight of us, so you not only played…When you went in to bat, you were the catcher. The people who were the batters were also the catcher. Interviewer: “So you’re throwing the ball back if you…” Yeah, you were throwing the ball back, and if there was a player at home, you’re expected to put the person out even though it’s your person, your teammate, so…And we had probably a pitcher, a first baseman, and a shortstop, left fielder, and a second baseman, right fielder, and the left and right fielder covered the center of the field, too. That’s sort of the way we played. You covered everything. Interviewer: “Sure. Now when you were playing, you’re playing with regular baseballs or softballs or…?” Well, we were playing with baseballs that other teams had thrown away, and the cover was partially off. And we would take it and wrap it with electrical tape and play with that. And our bats were usually bats that were discarded, and we would take some little finishing nails and tack it back together and wrap it with electrical tape, and those were our bats. So we pretty much played…We played with baseballs, but we pretty much didn’t have any baseballs, so we took what we could get and wrapped it in electrical tape. Interviewer: “Okay, and would you rotate playing different positions then because there were that few of you?” You had to play everything because you didn’t know what position you were going to be playing. “I want to play first base today.” “Okay, you play first base. I’ll play shortstop and outfield.” Interviewer: “Okay, and when you started pitching, did you pitch overhand like baseball pitchers?” We did. We always threw overhand. It was not softball at all. Then I moved…In the fifth grade, we moved out sort of in the country, but there was a place in front of us where they had built some houses like a suburb kind of thing. And we got a team together, and we built our own field 3 �Ozburn, Dolly there, too. We found an open field. We took all the junk out, but this one was flat. It just had rocks in it that hit the ball that jumped up and hit you if you didn’t catch it. And we built our own backstop there, too, thanks to my dad and his lumber and nails. (10:02) And then we…We had a team, and I told my brother. I said, “We have a team, but we don’t have anybody to play.” He said, “Oh, okay. I’ll talk to…” By that time, he was in high school. He was probably a senior. And he went and talked to a guy who owned a sporting goods store, and he said, “My sister…They have a ball team, and they don’t have anybody to play.” So the guy who owned the sporting goods store knew a lot of people in the county, and he got together the Mecklenburg County Junior League, and there were six teams, I think. Six or seven teams. And the Mecklenburg County Junior League was all boys except for me. And I was the only girl in the whole league. And somebody asked me how the boys feel about that, and I said, “I don’t know.” I didn’t care, you know. But the boys who were on my team were like brothers. I mean, and I still see them. Some of them. The ones who are living and their families. And I know their wife, and we got together. They always played tricks on me like when we were in high school. They put me up for homecoming queen, which was the last thing I wanted. And they said, “You have to because you have two escorts. Pinky and Paul are going to escort you.” And I said, “What? I don’t want them to escort me.” And so I was put up, and I had to get a dress and all of that stuff, and they did—two of the boys from my team escorted me for the…for the homecoming queen, which I did not want to be part of. I wasn’t the queen, but I was one of her… Interviewer: “Her court.” Yeah, so…Oh boy, that was interesting. Interviewer: “All right. So how did you do in school? I mean, you were…You mentioned that you were kind of active and all over the place, but were you able to focus on studies and do okay?” Oh, yeah, I did okay in school. Well, probably if it had been my first priority, I probably would have done better, but playing ball was probably my first priority. (12:10) And we played basketball in the wintertime, and my dad…In the chicken yard. And all the boys came over to my house, and we all played basketball. It was all boys. No girls played basketball with us. We became very good dribblers because it was a chicken yard, and we also…Well, we didn’t become good rebounders because when you shot the ball and it went through the net, everybody would duck because it would fly all over, so…But those…And we played football until my dad made me quit. He said…I got my ear caught in somebody’s pant pocket, and I ripped it down here a little bit. And he said, “Okay, that’s it. No more football.” You know, so… Interviewer: “So were all of your sports activities things that were just these informal things…Well, I guess, in Mecklenburg you had sort of that improvised baseball league. But the schools didn’t do sports for girls, or…?” Junior high did, and I played basketball in junior high. That’s all we had. I played basketball, and…Well, I went to a K through twelve school when I first moved there, and then…Then they started…They consolidated some of the schools and built a high school, and all we had in North Carolina at that time was basketball. And that was that split court thing like they have—like they 4 �Ozburn, Dolly had in Iowa for years. And I played all the way through junior high. Well, I signed my contract to go into the league at the end of the ninth grade. I was fourteen years old, and I signed with Jimmie Foxx and the Fort Wayne Daisies. I tried out at a field where…I went to all the ball games there. It was a Class B team that belonged to old Washington senators, and I would go to all their games. And I saw a sign there that said, “Women’s baseball.” And I said, “Whoa.” And I think Katie alluded to that because she started in 1951, and they had their spring training in North Carolina at another town, which I didn’t even know they had it there. (14:20) So I…They played two teams, and one of them was the Daisies. They played in this ball field in Charlotte, and I tried out. And I was thirteen, and I was pretty small and pretty young. If I had my boy’s suit here, I could show you. It’s tiny, you know. And my…They said, “Well, no. You’re too young. You’re thirteen, and you’re too small.” Well, like I said, I had a growing spurt at thirteen, so I flew up to…I was then 5’8”. I’m a little shorter than that now, but I was 5’8”. Got to be 5’8”. And then I…So the next year I tried out and signed with Jimmie Foxx and the Fort Wayne Daisies. Well, that was the end of the ninth grade. When I went into the tenth grade, I could not play basketball because I was professional. Interviewer: “Okay, now you…So the summer after ninth grade you went and played for the team, and you came back to go to high school again?” That’s right. Came back to high school, and I couldn’t play high school basketball. So I decided that…”Okay, I can’t play high school basketball.” But our…The parks and recreation in the city of Charlotte had teams. And I got together all the girls that had been cut off the East Mecklenburg High School team and some friends of mine, and we played in the county in the city of Charlotte recreational league. So I could play in the recreational league. We won the championship, you know. Interviewer: “Now all of these leagues and teams…This is all segregated at this point? So it’s all white, or…?” (16:19) Yes, they were totally segregated. Except the neighborhood that I lived in up until the fifth grade…I lived primarily in a black neighborhood. My next-door neighbor was black, and the whole group up there was black. So we did…When I was young, we did have black kids playing with us all the time. They came down and played with us. They came to my house on Sunday, and we made—My dad made banana ice cream and pecan ice cream, and they all came down to the house. And we had a big front porch, and they all came to our house at night and sat on the porch. And I had a black woman who lived at our house actually. Her husband had died, and her son was gone. And she was a friend of my grandmother’s, and she lived with us. And her name was Bert. And Bert used to whack me with the broom when I got out of…Which I was a big teaser when I was little. Well, I was a big teaser, period. And she would whack me, you know, with a broom. We’d steal her peach pies off the back porch, and she would come out with the broom and let us have it. Interviewer: “All right. Now let’s talk a little bit…Back when you first joined, what’s the…How does the tryout process actually work?” 5 �Ozburn, Dolly Well, they came to play a game, and I just went. They had me hit, and they had me pitch, and they had me run. And that was about it. And I was a pitcher, so I was primarily pitching. And I had developed a curveball, a little slider, and a few other pitches, and I was working on a knuckleball when the league folded because we had that ten-inch ball. You know, a nice one to hold. But when we went to the nine-inch, I was working on a knuckleball because then I could hold onto the ball. (18:08) And so one of the guys we played against, his brother was Hoyt Wilhelm, and we played against his brother. His brother was my age, so I played against his brother up at Croft, which is North Carolina, which he’s from. And so I was learning from my dad and my brother and these guys. I was learning to throw a knuckleball. So I was disappointed when the league folded and I didn’t get to practice that, but…Yeah, and they had me run, they had me pitch, and it was primarily my pitching. Interviewer: “Okay, and so now, once they signed you on, you’re big enough, you can go, now what happens?” Well, I think my mom…I had never been away from home in my life. Ever. Not anywhere. People didn’t have money to travel then, you know. We did…We went to the beach maybe one week out of the year. Just my mom and I; my dad never went. He liked to work. He didn’t like going on vacation. So we would go to the beach, but that was it. And my whole family other than my dad was with us. So, you know, I’d never been away from home. As a matter of fact, I was so green, I didn’t even know they had maids in hotels to make up beds. I had never stayed in a motel in my life. So my mother thought that I would get homesick and come back because I’d never been away from home. And I got homesick just staying with family members. They’d have to bring me home in the middle of the night. I would think something like somebody was going to bother my mother and dad. I don’t know what I thought I could do, but, you know. So they’d have to bring me home. So she thought, “Well, she’d go 800 miles away. I’ll probably…She’ll probably come home.” I didn’t. And I...My dad, he was all for it, you know. (20:03) “Go. Have fun.” But he told me something before I left. He said, “Now you’re going to be a rookie.” He said, “So you’re going to be at the bottom of the barrel again. So you’re going to have to work.” And he said, “You also…You’re at the bottom of the barrel, and don’t be a smart aleck because if you are, they’ll eat you alive.” So I sort of remembered that, and he also said, “Now you’re going away from home, and you don’t have your family there, and we’re far away. We have no car.” He said, “If you get in trouble, it’s going to be on you because you’ll have to figure out what to do. It’s on you.” And he said, “Your mom and I tried to teach you right from wrong, and now we’re going to see if you were listening.” Interviewer: “Okay. Now when they’re…Now did they have to sign something to allow you to go?” Yes, they did. Interviewer: “All right, and did the league people tell them about the chaperone system and how they’d take care of you?” Yes, they did, and that was all in the contract and everything. Yeah, the rules and what you were supposed to follow and what you were supposed to do and how they took care of you. And they 6 �Ozburn, Dolly did, you know. They were very, very nice to you and that kind of thing. Of course, being young kids, you know, we were always, especially Katie Horstman and I, were always, you know, sort of looking for things to get into. Not bad things. Just things to get into. We didn’t get to anything bad. We just got in, you know. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re joining the Daisies in 1952?” Yes. Interviewer: “All right, now what range of people was on the team at that point? Have you got some older veteran players…?” Yes. Well, Pepper Paire was on our team, and she was one of the older people. And Tibby Eisen was on our team. And we had a range from me, which I was the youngest, and I…They wouldn’t let me come to spring training. Early. I wanted to come early, but they wouldn’t let me because school wasn’t out. So they said, “No. You have to stay in school.” (22:16) School’s out the day of my fifteenth birthday, so I left the day after my fifteenth birthday to go to Fort Wayne. And they were out of town when I got there, so someone met me at the airport and took me to the Van Orman Hotel, and I stayed there. They took me to their house, and I had dinner with them. And then they took me—one of the board members—and then we went to the Van Orman Hotel, and I stayed there. And the next day I joined the girls that I was living with. And I lived with Katie Horstman, Dolly Brumfield White, Jo Weaver, Jean Weaver, and myself. And all five of us lived together. And I was the youngest, and I think Jo and Jean and Katie must have been seventeen. Sixteen, seventeen. Seventeen, maybe? And then I’m sure Dolly must have been eighteen or nineteen. Interviewer: “A little older, anyway.” Yeah, they were all a little older than me. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Now do you remember…So you were playing a regular season game when you…the first time you play? I mean, has the season started by the time you join them?” Yeah, the team had already started, and they were out of town… Interviewer: “Yeah, right. These are regular games. So how long did it take for you to get you into a game?” I don’t remember that. I just don’t. I was sort of a bullpen pitcher the first year and the second year, and then I pitched in rotation the third year. Interviewer: “Do you remember the first time you pitched in a game?” Sort of, sort of. I did…I think Pepper Paire was my catcher. Lois Youngen was my catcher sometimes, but Pepper Paire was my catcher the first time. And I remember Pepper used to get 7 �Ozburn, Dolly after me about a lot of things, you know. (24:14) So I think Pepper was my catcher the first time because we had quite a squad because Geissinger, I think, played second base, and Horstman played, I think, third. And we had Dottie Schroeder as shortstop and Betty Foss on first base, so…And Jo Weaver, I think, played either right field or left field, and Tibby Eisen, I think, was in center field. And I can’t remember who was in right field, but one of the players in right field…Now I can’t remember now. I was fifteen, so I was kind of like trying to find my way. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Now at that point did the catchers normally call the pitches for you?” Yes, they did. Interviewer: “Okay, you got experienced catchers, so that’s got to help a little.” Yeah, yeah. Experienced catchers. Yeah. Lois wasn’t…I think…I don’t remember what year she started. Maybe ’51. But Pepper had been there quite a while, so yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you have problems when you started? Were they hitting you, or were you wild? Or did you pitch pretty well?” Well, I was sometimes wild. Yeah, I was sometimes wild, and sometimes I, you know, would have good days and bad days like all pitchers, but I was sometimes wild. I know I ran a lot of wind sprints. That I remember. I remember playing pepper and running wind sprints. Wind sprints. Holy cow, I remember those a lot. And I remember trying to learn a lot about the game, and when I had Bill Allington, I learned a lot about the game. I learned more about baseball from Bill Allington than I did anybody. And that was the next year and then when we were on tour. (26:08) The next year and on tour I learned a lot about baseball from him, but he knew more about baseball than any coach I’ve ever seen or ever had, you know. When I had Bill. Interviewer: “Yeah, because Katie Horstman talks about Jimmie Foxx. Of course, he was a hitter rather than a pitcher.” Yeah, he was a hitter. Interviewer: “But there was that part where he was looking at her hand motion and asking if she had milked cows before. Is that right?” That’s right. Well, Jimmie used to have…Being a bullpen pitcher and not a starter, I pitched a lot of batting practice. A lot of batting practice. And when I would pitch batting practice, there was every once in a while Jimmie would hit. And sometimes he’d hit with just one hand, and he could knock that ten-inch ball out of the park with one hand. And I would say, “Jimmie, if I pitch this in there, don’t you hit that back through here.” And he’d say, “I won’t.” I said, “Don’t you dare.” “Because,” I said, “it would make a hole this big in me, and it would come out the other side. Don’t you hit it back through here.” And he never did, but I was a little leery of pitching to him because he could hit that ball so hard, you know. And Jimmie was a good guy. Boy, he 8 �Ozburn, Dolly loved his players, though. I mean, there isn’t anything he wouldn’t do for his players. I mean, he was just like a dad, you know. Just like a father to us. Interviewer: “Yeah, and he’d been there in the league from the beginning, hadn’t he? I mean, he was one of their first players, or…? No, I think he came with the 1952 season. I think he was hired in the 1952 season. Interviewer: “All right. I guess the impression one gets from other places was that he was there earlier, but some of that may be the indirect influence of a somewhat inaccurate Hollywood film. Because I think they talk about the Tom Hanks character…” Jimmy Dugan, yeah. Interviewer: “Being based on him to one degree or another.” Well, Jimmie wasn’t a screamer or yeller. Karl Winsch… (28:11) He yelled at me a few times. A lot. Especially one time when I walked Katie. After I was traded, I pitched a game, I guess, in Fort Wayne. And, of course, I knew all those ladies because I had played with them, and I walked Katie because she was a good hitter and I was trying to, you know, keep the ball away from her getting hit. And I walked off the field, and Karl Winsch just screamed at me, “Meet me at the baseline!” And he let me have it about walking her. “And don’t you walk anybody else!” I said, “Okay.” But they had a lot of good hitters like Geissinger, Weaver, and Foss and you know. So I was trying hard not to walk them, you know. I mean, I was trying hard not to let them get hit, so I was trying to place the ball, and it was…So he screamed. He yelled at me a lot, you know, but that’s the way it goes. And when they said, “There’s no crying in baseball…” No, nobody cried. Nobody cried. And I thought to myself, “Okay, you can yell all you want. You’re not going to make me feel bad or cry, you know. Interviewer: “All right, so how successful were you as a pitcher?” Well, I think I was learning a lot. I think, you know…I think I had not pitched—I didn’t pitch in the boys’ league. I didn’t pitch in the boys’ league, and I think the…When I pitched for Fort Wayne, I was more or less a pitcher that came in, you know. Interviewer: “A relief pitcher, sure.” Yeah, I was a relief. Yeah. And when I pitched regular, I got to be a lot better than I was. Of course, you do when you pitch regular. And I think my record that last year was eleven and six, I think. (30:08) And so I was learning batters more. About what they do. And I was learning more about the game of baseball as I went because when you play, you know, sandlot ball, you just play, you know. And I was learning a lot more about it, and I was trying to increase the number of pitches that I had. And so I was learning a lot more about it, but I think, if I remember correctly, Jan, my teammate, was…The end of the year…I don’t know. I got this thing. I wasn’t caring whether I was first, second, or third or fourth in the league as far as pitchers were, and I got this thing. I think she was the first pitcher, and I was second. I’m sure who was third in the 9 �Ozburn, Dolly league, and I think it was Kline. I think Kline was third in the league that last year. So I was improving, and I wasn’t as good as I wanted to be. Let’s put it that way. I was working on it, and I, you know, was working on it over the winter. Working on some new pitches and was anxious to go back. Interviewer: “Okay. At the time that you came in, had they stopped having the traveling teams for the younger players, or were there still touring teams?” No, there were no touring teams for younger players. That had quit. Yeah. Interviewer: “Right. So the young players, if they’re taking them, they’re going in. They’re putting them right on the regular teams with everybody else.” Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there was no traveling team. I think there were some teams—local teams—for younger girls, and I think that they were the Junior Daisies. And I think they still had some of those teams when I came into the Junior Daisies. But I don’t think there were any junior Blue Sox when I got to 1954 and got to the Blue Sox. I don’t think there were any junior Blue Sox. Interviewer: “Okay. Now what is daily life like for you when you’re actually in the league?” Well, it depends on whether you’re on the road or at home. (32:12) Something funny happened to me. When Bill came, he was…I was kind of a rookie. It was the second year, but I was still considered a rookie. And when we came home from playing, he would say, “Practice tomorrow morning at nine, and I want the infield here. Infield and Vanderlip.” Me. “Okay.” So I’d go to practice. Next morning it was the outfield and Vanderlip, and the next day it was pitchers and catchers, which included me. And the next day it was infield, outfield, and Vanderlip. So when we got home from road trips, pretty soon he would say, “I want the infield.” And I’d say, “And Vanderlip. Don’t forget Vanderlip.” And everybody would go, “Aw, man.” And then they’d start laughing, so I said, “Don’t forget to call me.” So he was…And he’d just shake his head, you know. Bill—he had a good sense of humor, but he was all baseball, all business, you know. And he’d say, “Outfielders.” “And Vanderlip,” I’d say. Interviewer: “So you got two years with Fort Wayne: ’52, ’53.” Yep. Interviewer: “’52 Jimmie Foxx is your manager. ’53 Bill Allington’s your manager.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you go to South Bend for ’54.” Karl Winsch. Interviewer: “And that’s where Karl Winsch is the manager.” 10 �Ozburn, Dolly Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Got them kind of sorted out. Now I guess you talked a little bit about the setup they had. You were living in a house, and there were several others rooming there with you. Now did this belong to one family, or did you rent out the whole house? Or what was the deal? (34:08) Well, that was funny. We lived upstairs. There was a family that lived downstairs. And so the five of us lived together. We did like…We could do our own cooking and stuff because it was like an apartment, but there was a family that lived downstairs. And I even remember the name of the street. We lived on Fulton Street. We had somebody…I don’t remember whose car it was, but we had a ’48 Ford. And we had to go all the way across town to get to the ball field. And so we used to drive that old Ford. We named it Big Ben, and Big Ben was a black ’48 Ford, one of those old square jobs, you know. The reason we called it Big Ben was we had a thing in there that…A Big Ben clock. Because then we could tell how much time we had to go to get to the ball field. So we could pull Big Ben out and look. “Oh, yeah, we better hurry, you know. We got to get to the ball field.” So we put Big Ben back in the thing, and so we had Big Ben that we used to travel back and forth. And at night, we at least did have transportation back home after we got…We’d get home two, three o’clock in the morning from a road trip, you know. And our bus driver was Wally, and he was a sweet, sweet guy. Wally was the sweetest guy you ever want to meet. And if we got too rowdy, he’d say, “Now, girls. Now, girls. You need to settle down.” And he was just a sweetheart. He was like a grandpa to us, and he was just the sweetest guy you ever want to meet. Interviewer: “Okay, now when the league started, there were all kinds of rules and regulations, and they had the charm school, and you had to wear makeup and all this kind of stuff. How much of that was still in place when you got there?” Not as much. We still had to wear dresses everywhere. We couldn’t go in public without having a dress on. (36:09) If we were invited…I remember there was this one guy that owned a diner that was one of our supporters, and he always invited us to his diner for dinner. And I have a picture of that, of all our team at the diner. And we had to wear dresses or skirts to that. Well, most of the time we wore blouses like this, and we had a tailor in Fort Wayne that—He would make wrap-around skirts for us, so we could wrap it around. It had a little hole in the thing, and we’d stick that through and wrap it around us and tie it. And we were ready, you know. So we had wrap-around skirts. Not all wrap-around skirts. We had some dresses and stuff. But wraparound skirts to wear. And they weren’t as strict with that as they had been in earlier years. And I remember one of the older ladies saying to me one time, “You know, we had to go to charm school.” And I said, “That’s okay.” I said, “You know what? We didn’t have to go because we’re already charming.” She went, “Ugh.” You know, so I would tease them about the fact that they had to go to charm school, and I’d said, “Well, it didn’t rub off, you know.” So we would tease them about that fact that they had to go to charm school. But no, they didn’t have charm schools. Stuff like that. Interviewer: “Okay. Did they still have chaperones?” 11 �Ozburn, Dolly Yes, we did have chaperones, and they would come in when we dressed. And, you know, in the movie they showed Tom Hanks coming in, going to the bathroom. That never would have happened. That wouldn’t have happened. Our chaperone—If the managers wanted to talk to us, they would say…It would either be after we were all dressed to go on the field. Right before we went on the field. And the chaperone would say, “Okay, everybody’s dressed. You can come in and talk to them now.” Or after the game, if we didn’t play well, sometimes Bill would come in with us, and the chaperone would say, “It’s okay to come in.” And he would come in and talk to us. (38:11) Well, talk to us. Yeah, I’d have to say talk to us sort of. Talked to us about how we played and stuff like that. So, Bill, you know, and the other guys, they wouldn’t come in. They’d never walk into the dressing room like that. Interviewer: “Okay, now, I guess, when you’re on the road, the chaperones were kind of looking after you and making sure you’re where you’re supposed to be.” Yes, yes, and it was kind of funny because we had a time that we were supposed to be in. We’d go out to eat, and we would come back. Well, in the ‘50s, you know, they had all these great, big, huge plants and stuff in the…So if we were a few minutes late—because if you were late, you got a fine—they’d be sitting in the lobby, watching for you to come in, because you had bed check. And we would sort of wait and hide behind the plant. And when they were looking the other way, we’d run behind another plant and run behind another plant, so we wouldn’t get caught coming in. And I think one place…I don’t know if that was Kalamazoo…Where that was…We talked to the guys who ran the freight elevator, and sometimes we’d run around back, and they’d take us up in the freight elevator, so we wouldn’t get caught for being late. Because sometimes you’re five, ten minutes late, you know. It wasn’t like we were staying out all night or anything. So Lou said she didn’t do that kind of stuff, but, you know, Katie and I and some of the others…We were a little younger and loose, so we were, you know, a little bit mischievous. But Bill was pretty strict on that stuff. As a matter of fact, when we were on tour, I got a couple lectures from Bill. Yep. One the night I met my husband. Well, he was my future husband nine years later. A whole bunch of us went out. (40:11) We came in, and there was a…And the next morning…There’s a lot more to the story, but the next morning he sort of gave me a lecture about being on the road and, you know. And I said, “You know what, Bill? My dad gave me that same lecture.” And he did. I said, “So you don’t have to worry.” Because we never went out alone with anybody. We went out as a group, and usually it was a group from the team that we played and their wives and that kind of thing. Interviewer: “Of course, if they’re from the team that you played, did they have wives or husbands?” No. Now this was when we were on tour. We played men’s teams on tour. Interviewer: “Okay, now when were you doing—Oh, that’s right because we haven’t gotten to that part of the story yet.” No. When we were on tour…Yeah, we were all talking about Bill. Yeah. 12 �Ozburn, Dolly Interviewer: “Okay, now how well did the teams that you played for do? Was it ’52, 3, 4? Did they have winning seasons, or…?” Yes. Fort Wayne won the league championship the first year I was there, but we lost in the playoffs. Fort Wayne won the league championship. Second year we—I think we lost in the playoffs. Now I was traded to South Bend, and we were second in the league. Fort Wayne and our team were battling it out, and then we finally lost the league championship. And then we lost in the playoffs. So we were battling it out with Fort Wayne, first and second, and I think Kalamazoo won the playoffs that year. Fort Wayne got kicked out in that. And I think they won the league. Maybe Kalamazoo did. Somebody else won the league. Interviewer: “But Grand Rapids won the league in ’53.” (42:01) Okay. No, not…The league or the playoffs? Interviewer: “Well, the playoffs.” The playoffs, yeah. Fort Wayne won the league. Interviewer: “In terms of best record.” Yeah, yeah. They won the playoffs. And I think Fort Wayne won the league, though, that year. ’53. ’53, I think Fort Wayne won the league, and Grand Rapids won the playoffs. Okay. The next year, I think, Fort Wayne won the league and Kalamazoo won the playoffs. And we were battling it out with, I think, with Fort Wayne. The season. We were battling it out with Fort Wayne for the league championship, and we ended up losing it. Interviewer: “Okay. You’re playing in sort of the last three years of the league.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now did you notice changes in attendance, or were there other kinds of problems coming up?” Yes, I noticed changes in attendance. I don’t know. I was young, and I wasn’t aware of the…I’m a person who don’t get involved in the politics and stuff even now. Not international politics either. But I think South Bend had some big problems, and a lot of players just left. I don’t know what all the problems were, and I didn’t get into that. I think my son did some research on that because, as I said, he’s a historian. And I think they were short players, so I think that’s one of the reasons that I was sent to—traded to South Bend because they needed pitchers. Okay, and one of my friends said, “Yeah, that’s like being a slave. They can just trade you anytime you want.” And I said, “Yeah. Yeah, sort of.” Interviewer: “Well, Major League baseball worked the same way.” They do that. That’s what I said. 13 �Ozburn, Dolly Interviewer: “Not anymore, but they did then.” Baseball does that, and football does that too now, you know. You could say, “Okay, I want more money.” If they won’t pay it, they send you someplace else, or somebody has to pick you up. (44:07) Interviewer: “But in those days—I mean, now there’s free agency, and players have room to negotiate. And in those days, I mean, Major League baseball didn’t have free agents until Curt Flood. So you were just being treated like them. Now how were you—How well were you paid?” I don’t remember exactly what my salary was. It seems like it was like…I’m trying to remember my contract now. It seems like it was two hundred and something a month. Like that. And one of the players that I played with—1953—she said, “Yeah, you know what I remember about you?” And I said, “No, I don’t.” She said…I said, “You’re going to tell me, of course.” And she said, “Yeah.” She said, “I remember that one time I was running short on money, and I asked you if I could borrow some money. And you said, ‘Well, I’ll have to cash my last check, and then I’ll loan you some.’” She said, “You hadn’t even cashed your checks.” I said, “Well…” I was saving my money for a car. I was sixteen. My parents had no car, so I was saving to buy a car when I got home. So I think it was two hundred and something. There wasn’t quite three hundred dollars I made. 275, 280, something like that. But that was a lot of money then because in North Carolina when you worked in the mill, you were only bringing 40, 45 dollars a week home. And it seems like four times forty is not what I was making a month. So I thought…And for a sixteen, fifteen, sixteen-year-old kid that’s a lot of money. Because I worked in the mill when I was in— the mill across the street from my house—when I was in elementary school. I worked after school in the mill. (46:10) And on Saturday mornings. And I made fifty cents a week working in the mill. I worked from the time I was six years old in the mill. Just, you know…They had me do jobs. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did the attendance drop?” The attendance did drop. In South Bend we dropped, and there were a couple of those things going on. I think the summer I was there Bendix went on strike. Studebaker. That was right before they moved. They went on strike, and several companies went on strike. And it seems like in the early fifties…I think we had a downturn in the economy, and baseball on television— men’s baseball—was beginning to come on television. So, I mean, even though it was maybe fifty cents, a quarter, fifty cents, a dollar to get into a game, then that was a lot of money. You’re bringing home forty, forty-five dollars. That’s a lot of money, you know, to pay twenty-five cents for a program to go to the ball games every night. You know, that seemed like a lot of money at that point, and people were on strike, so…And they didn’t have all the benefits that people have—You know, had later. Interviewer: “Sure. All right, let’s see. Now at what point did you find out that the league was shutting down?” 14 �Ozburn, Dolly Well, I have a letter. We heard inklings of it when we left. And I had a letter—I think it was January or February—that said that we’re waiting for Rockford to go. And if Rockford could go…And I’m sure this is what the letter said. I still have it at home, but it’s been a long time since I read it. (48:00) If Rockford could make it, and if they decided to go, the league would still go. And then I got a postal card later, and this must have been right before they would have gone to spring training. Because I would have been in school and wouldn’t have been able to go. That the league would not be going again. And I just got a postal card that said that, and I have that at home yet, too. So we got a letter about January or February that said, yeah, the league would be going, and I was very happy that it was. And then—it must have been March or April—that said no. That we wouldn’t be having a league anymore. Interviewer: “But this didn’t stop your professional baseball career, so what happens next?” Well, in 19…I graduated from high school in 1955. So Bill Allington got a team together to take on the road, and we had a touring team. And they played men’s teams. Well, he sent me a letter and had me join them in Iowa, and that was 1955, right after I got out of school. And then I got this letter, and I said, “Sure.” So I packed up and met them in Iowa, and that’s when the touring team started. And I remember Katie was on the touring team, and at that time Dotty Schroeder and Betty Foss, but I think she went home before we finished. And I remember one time we were somewhere, and I think we’d been rained out for like…We got a portion of the receipts, and sometimes we got as much as three dollars, you know. And then we had to pay for gas, and we paid for our own meals. And we paid for our hotel—motel room, and we stayed in some real interesting places. (50:08) You know, really interesting. And I don’t know if the girls remember. We stayed in one place. I don’t even know if they asked. Someplace in Iowa. And it was one of these real old hotels that they since probably tore down. And there was a rope. There was a rope by the radiator. Oh, and we had bathrooms just on the hall. So you had to go—When you went to the bathroom or you had to go take a shower—a bath. We didn’t have showers. Take a bath. You had to…I mean, there was one bathroom on the hall probably or two maybe, and so you had to take turns taking baths. And it was hoping nobody else was in there. And this radiator had a rope tied to it, and I asked the guy at the desk. I said, “Why is that rope tied to the radiator?” He said, “Oh, that’s the fire escape.” And I said, “What?” He said, “That’s the fire escape.” So you’d throw the rope out and go down the fire escape and throw it back up. Interviewer: “All right, so when you’re touring, as you were saying, you were often playing men’s teams. Would these be just sort of independent teams or local ones?” Local. Town teams mostly. A lot of them were made up of college students, and they had the same deal because I married one of them. They had the same deal where you came to play for a town team, and they found you a job. Well, that’s what I did in the wintertime. I played basketball for some team like NAPA. I played for National Auto Parts. Well, they would hire me on Saturdays because I was working Monday through Friday. They would hire me to play basketball, and they would give me a job, and then I would play basketball for them. (52:12) And that was interesting. That’s what these town teams did. They would find them a job, and they would play for their town team. Like my future husband and I met on tour, played for Van Horn the year I met him, and he worked at a cement factory. And he played ball for Van Horn, 15 �Ozburn, Dolly and it was very competitive. Oh, extremely competitive. So we would play those teams, and we would switch batteries, pitcher and catcher. And their pitchers and catchers would come sit on our bench. The guys. And our pitcher and catcher—because we only had one of each—go sit on their bench because everybody else had to play. Because we only had eleven players and Bill. There were twelve of us altogether. And so we would sit on the men’s bench, and then we would play the game. And we had a…kind of a thing that…where we would act like we would throw the ball. Sort of a thing around the infield and stuff like that. And then Dotty Schroeder was there first year, and then Joanie Berger was playing shortstop for them. And they would back his catcher up against the thing and keep throwing to him and throwing to him. And when he was back up against the thing, and she would throw it right back and throw as hard—And they thought he was going to throw it at him, and she’d throw it right above his head up there. Just sort of a, you know, just a…And we had two baseball clowns that—well, at different times— went with us, and that was…Jackie Price was one of them. The other one’s name I don’t remember now. There were two of them that toured the country, and… Interviewer: “There’s one famous one who’d show up. Max Patkin.” Max. He was with us one year. Yes, he was with us one year, and he traveled with us. And he did…Yeah. He was teaching…I think it was Pickles. Yeah, Pickles. To throw two balls. And we would throw two balls, and we would throw three balls. And we would pitch to him, and he would hang upside down and bat the ball. And he’d catch a ball in his shirt and in his pants and, you know, that kind of thing. (54:20) So they did travel—I don’t know if they were with us the whole season, but they were with us part of it. Jackie Price was one and Max Patkin was the other one. You know, it was mostly for fun. We weren’t trying to prove anything. We were just having fun. We loved to play ball. And when I…I think it was 1958. We played in Iowa, and my future husband played at Van Horn. But his boss at the cement factory told him, “We’re playing a bunch of girls tonight. Come down.” So he came down, and, I don’t know, somebody was hurt. I think it was Pickles. Dove into a place and jammed her head. And her neck was hurt, so I had to play infield that night. So if you had somebody hurt…You either played infield, or you played pitcher. So you played every night, you know. And I think she…I think it was Pickles that was injured. So they all sat on our bench. The catcher and—His boss was the catcher, and he sat on our bench and everything. And I was sitting on the bench, and we got to talking on the bench. After the game, a whole bunch of us went out. We got to talking, and it was kind of funny. I didn’t know this until years later, but he said to my future husband, “Invite me to the wedding. That’s the girl you’re going to marry.” And he said, “No, no.” And he said, “Yes, it is. You’ll marry her.” And so nine years later we did decide to get married. We didn’t even live in the same state any of those years. We just sort of kept in touch. (56:15) Interviewer: “All right, so…But ’58 was your last year touring, right?” Touring, touring. Interviewer: “Okay, and so at that point you’re about twenty-one years old now, or…?” In ’58, I think that was…Yeah, probably about that because I had one more year left of college. Yeah. 16 �Ozburn, Dolly Interviewer: “Okay, so where were you going to college?” I went to college at Appalachian State. I think the Yankees call that Appalachian State. Interviewer: “Actually, these days if we know our schools, we go Appalachian.” Appalachian. Yes, right. Interviewer: “That’s how we know it because that’s how they say it.” That’s right. Go, Appalachian. Yep, and I think since Katie thought we talked funny, I would still say Appalachian. Interviewer: “So did you see him multiple times while you were still playing or just that once?” Yeah, we just wrote each other occasionally, and then, I think, one time he came to North Carolina. And one time he was playing for a team in Iowa, and I—a friend and I went up there and visited one year for about two, three days, until they went on a road trip. And then we came back home. And then I think I saw him another time later in the 1960s in Iowa. And then a friend of mine…I went to the University of Iowa for a master’s degree. And then a friend of mine talked me into going to La Crosse to teach. And I saw him a couple of times then. (58:01) And then we sort of lost contact, and I guess he called—He found out where I was teaching and called the head of my department, and the head of my department came in and said, “Some guy called, and he was looking for you.” And I said, “No.” And he said, “Yeah.” And it was my future husband, but we didn’t get married right then. We waited a couple years yet, so it was nine years. And, as my friend put it, the length of a baseball game: nine innings. Interviewer: “So how old were you when you got married?” Thirty. Yeah, I was too busy. Interviewer: “That’s very common these days. It was probably more unusual then.” It was very unusual then because my family always thought, “She’s never getting married. She’s never getting married.” So they told me that. Interviewer: “All right, now did you basically go to college and then teach for a while and then get a master’s?” Yes, I taught for a while, and then I… Interviewer: “So after you got your degree at Appalachian State, where did you teach?” My dad developed heart trouble. Well, he had heart trouble, and he had a few problems with his heart. So I went back home to teach, to help my mom because he had a small business by that 17 �Ozburn, Dolly time. And she had to go run that, and I went home to help them, you know, with things. (1:00:07) So I taught at an elementary school, and actually it was the school where I went to junior high school. And it had the same principal, so I knew him pretty well. So I went there to teach a couple years, and I taught elementary physical education. And then I told my dad that I thought I would go back to get a master’s degree, and I went back. And then my dad had two heart attacks in the fall, so I dropped out and went back home to help them. And I just had some part-time jobs that year while I was helping them. And then I…My dad passed away in 1964. So then I went back to school full-time and finished my master’s degree. I went summers, and then I finished my master’s degree in 1965. And while I was home I had part-time jobs the first year I dropped out. Then I got a full-time job at a high school, and I taught high school and coached basketball. Now at night when it wasn’t basketball season, during the summers, I played softball for NAPA. They got me a job in the summer because we didn’t make much money. I think my first teaching job was $1,100 a year, and so I had to work in the summer. They got me a job, and I played softball for them. Interviewer: “Okay, so where did you get your high school teaching job after the master’s degree?” I taught in Gastonia, North Carolina. (1:02:00) As a matter of fact, one player came from there. They called her Rebel. She came from Gastonia, and I didn’t know her, though. I met her once, I think. And I taught at a place called Holbrook High School. And I taught physical education and biology, which was my other major, and health education, which was my other major. So I taught those three things at the high school. I had the Girls Athletic Association, and that was a group that—where all the girls participated. And I coached basketball because basketball was the only sport that we had. But the Girls Athletic Association…I must’ve had—We had probably five hundred girls in that school, and I think I had 410 in the Girls Athletic Association because we did a variety of activities. And they had to earn points to do special trips. Our special trip as a freshman was a bicycle ride, the sophomores, I think, we went on a special hike, the juniors went on an overnight—a weekend camping trip in the mountains, and the seniors went on an overnight weekend camping trip at the ocean, at the beach. So they wanted to go on those trips, and so we had tons of girls. And we had everything. We had co-ed bowling, co-ed volleyball. Volleyball, bowling for girls. And we had a lot of co-ed programs. And the boys wanted to start a BAA, a Boys Athletic Association. I said, “No, no, no, no, no. I got a lot to handle now, guys.” But we did incorporate more, and the kids ran the programs. (1:04:02) I made sure the kids were doing their jobs, and they ran the programs. And we all learned a lot by that. And then I coached girls’ basketball too as well. And then in the winters when I didn’t teach high school…Before I taught high school, I would play basketball myself, and I earned money that way because when I played basketball, I played for a team. But on the weekends they had tournaments, and the team could pick up two people. And I got picked up to play every weekend, and I made ten bucks a game. So if we played four games and won a championship, I made forty bucks a weekend, which is a lot of money. You know, back then that was a lot of money. And in the summers, after school was out, I played softball. The same deal. I would get a job somewhere, play for their softball team, get picked up on the weekends to play for other teams when we didn’t have tournaments, and I made ten bucks a game. So I was making probably forty dollars a week working in a factory pulling automobile parts and forty dollars on the weekends playing in tournaments. So that’s sort of how I made my money. 18 �Ozburn, Dolly Interviewer: “All right, now how do things change once you get married?” Well, they change quite a bit because I was thirty years old. And when I was in college, I was coaching field hockey, fencing. Field hockey and fencing. And the seasons kind of overlapped, and we didn’t have…When I was teaching there, we did not have coaches. We had team sports because we did not have intercollegiate sports. Title IX had not gone through yet, and I was very disappointed about that. And I’m glad that the girls have Title IX now because we didn’t have an opportunity to do that, and the girls that I coached didn’t. So I coached field hockey in the fall, and I had never played field hockey until I was in graduate school because we didn’t have it in the South. But I played for the University of Iowa. (1:06:26) And I had to be a quick study because—Boy, I learned a lot that first year, especially after those wings passed me and spun me around a few times, you know. They were fast, so I had to figure out how to beat them to the ball. And that was interesting too because one of my teams got to go to the nationals. And while I was there, one of the officials was Gertie Dunn who played in our league and with whom I was friends in South Bend. She played shortstop for South Bend. So I got to see Gertie, and I said, “Hey, Gertie.” “Lippy, what are you doing here?” I said, “Oh, what are you doing here?” You know, and it was like we’d never been apart, you know. So I got to see Gertie, and that was great. I got to run into people I knew. So when I got married, I was still teaching there and still coaching and everything. And so I think I was so bogged down that I said, you know…I talked to the head department, and I said, “We want to start a family, and I think I am going to have to give up my teaching job to do that. I have no time. No time.” Interviewer: “Now did your husband come to North Carolina then?” No, my husband came to Wisconsin. I was teaching in Wisconsin. Yeah, I was teaching college then. So I taught high school while I was getting my master’s degree, then I took a year off and got my master’s degree, and then I went straight to Wisconsin to teach. (1:08:03) A lady who was getting her PhD there talked me into coming to Wisconsin. Otherwise, I’d interviewed at Syracuse and a few other places, and she talked me into coming to Wisconsin. And then my husband called the head of the department—well, my future husband—and found me. Then in a couple years we got married. Actually, after he found me, I went back home for the summer after my first year of teaching there, and he came down and visited. And we took my nephews on a backpacking trip on the Appalachian Trail, and that’s when we decided, “Well, maybe we better get married before we make a mistake and marry somebody else.” So then we said, “In another year we will plan the wedding. We’ll plan the wedding this next year, and we’ll tell everybody we’re getting married.” So then I was at UWL another year, and then we decided that we wanted to start a family. And I was so bogged down at UWL, by April I was a zombie because our field hockey went clear through into December, and my fencing team started before that and went clear through until April. So I was overlapped and that kind of thing. Interviewer: “Right, and so you went to your department chair. And you were starting on that and got sidetracked because you were talking about being so bogged down. And were you going to have to stop teaching? Was that the idea?” Yes. Yes, I was bogged down, and I was going to have to quit teaching there. And he didn’t want me to. He said, “Sure there isn’t anything I can do?” And I said, “No.” And it was kind of a sad 19 �Ozburn, Dolly situation because he and his wife wanted…He said, “You realize you may want to start a family, but that may not happen.” Because that’s what happened to them. (1:10:07) They lost several children, and they couldn’t have anymore. And at that time you didn’t have the medical facilities you have now and the medical…And he said, “I hope that doesn’t happen to you.” So he was worried that, you know…And so I have a son and a daughter, and they were born, you know, in 1971 and 1974. And from that point I went to the YWCA to work as a program director, and I was there for thirteen years. And recently I’ve been working at a school district riding the bus with four-year-olds, which is a riot, you know. And I do a lot of—I try to do a lot of speaking about the league. I love elementary school. I love to speak to elementary schools, and I speak to junior high schools, softball teams. I spoke to a couple—Well, I’ve been to a lot of senior citizens’ homes because they show them the movie because that’s their era, you know, and when I come in, they’re all prepared for it. And they say, “You don’t look old enough.” I said, “I was at the last of the league, not the first, you know.” Interviewer: “Okay, now did you stay in touch with many of the people that you’ve played with, or…?” Well, I went to the first reunion in Chicago, and I met Lou there. Lou Erickson Sauer. And didn’t know that I lived near her because we hadn’t gotten together. Now Mary Froning O’Meara. I knew that she lived in Madison because when I was coaching field hockey, we played Madison. And I had found her. (1:12:04) And I went over to visit her while we were there. So I had talked to Mary O’Meara, and I knew that Lou lived near me. So we started doing some things together like going to signings and stuff like that. And so I got to know her family real well. And so we did a lot of stuff together. And O’Meara—We did keep in touch some, and once in a while, I kept in touch with Lois Sheldon because she wrote some articles for softball tournaments and softball rulebooks and stuff like that. And I was using those when I was teaching, so we sort of kept in touch that way. But lost contact with most of them over the years. I guess you get busy with your life and, you know… Interviewer: “Okay, now when they made the film, A League of Their Own, they were trying to get a lot of the players back together. Were you involved in any of those things?” Yes, I did go to Illinois, and that was kind of fun. Horsey was there, so Horsey and I picked on each other while we were there. And O’Meara—Actually, we picked her up. I picked her up at her home in Madison, and she went with me down there. And then we contacted Katie because they’re from the same town. And so we got together there, and that was interesting meeting the people. And I thought that they were doing a really, really good job on the movie, and it was interesting meeting the people who were in the movie. And I had gotten a newspaper article from my sister-in-law—I hadn’t seen it—that said that there was a movie star who was picked to play the part of Dottie, which Geena Davis played. But she quit, and I asked one of the producers. I said, “Why did she quit?” She walked out. And she said, “Well, when they signed Madonna, she wouldn’t work with Madonna.” And I said, “Really?” And she said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Well, that’s too bad because I kind of liked her as a movie star, and I think she’s pretty athletic.”(1:14:32) And he said, “Yeah, but she’s hard to work with.” He said, “But you will like who we have. I’m sure you will. We can’t tell you who it is.” Because they hadn’t signed her when we were in Illinois. “But we will let you know as soon as we sign her.” And I saw 20 �Ozburn, Dolly something on the news. It was an interview with Tom Hanks, and they said that Tom Hanks contacted Penny Marshall and wanted that part. And I said, “Really? He wanted that part? You’re kidding.” And he wanted to play that part, so I guess he contacted them. They hadn’t signed him either when we were in Illinois. They were still working on it, and I saw they made changes in it as they met us there. And we had breakfast, lunch, and dinner with them, and they were rotating tables and talking to all of us. And I think they got, you know…I think they wanted to get a feel for what we were like. Interviewer: “Well, they were doing their jobs. Make a historical film? Do some research.” Yes, they were doing their search. And I don’t know how they found a Holiday Inn with three ball fields right outside the door, but that’s where we were. There were three baseball fields right there, and we hit fun goes. And they told us to play a game, but we mostly were horsing around, you know. We were playing, but, you know, teasing each other. You know, holding people on base and that kind of thing. Interviewer: “All right, now after the movie came out, did that turn you into a local celebrity or anything like that?” Yeah. In La Crosse, I had a friend who was on the La Crosse Tribune, and her job was to write stories about people in the area. (1:16:21) And she did. She wrote several articles, and I used to go out to dinner with her. And she had a real good sense of humor. She was funny. We used to tell stories, and people would pull their chairs over to our table to listen. And so, yes, then I started getting requests to come and speak from the rotary club and from the Lions and from this group and that group. And as a result of that, I was picked to be—which is a pretty big deal in La Crosse—is picked to be Maple Leaf parade marshal, and that’s for their Oktoberfest, which is a pretty big deal in La Crosse, you know. And actually is known fairly wide in the Midwest particularly. And a lot of things have happened as a result of that movie, you know. We were inducted into the Wall of Honor, you know, and I met a lot of the ballplayers that I wouldn’t have met. Andy Pafko was inducted with us, and it was fun talking to him. And he talked about the home run that was hit by Thompson—went over his head and won the World Series—and the story he told was unbelievable. He said, “I have played outfield all my life.” It went over his head by the way. And he said, “That ball was coming down. I know it was coming down.” He said, “I wasn’t drinking, I wasn’t on dope, and I wasn’t hallucinating. And I’ve played outfield all my life.” (1:18:05) And he was telling the story to us. He said, “I went under the ball, and it was coming down. I had my glove ready. And I thought, ‘Oh man, we got this series tied up. Oh boy.’” You know, and he said—I won’t tell you what he said, but he said, “When I saw that ball…” He said, “I don’t know what happened, but it hit an updraft or something.” He said, “The ball was coming down, I was under it…” And he said, “Oh my god, that thing’s…” He didn’t say that, but he said, “That’s going over my head.” So he said, “I turned around. I ran back against the wall. I put my back against the wall, and I’m looking, and it’s still going.” He said, “I didn’t believe it.” He said, “That ball was coming down, and I knew it was coming down.” He said, “I played outfield all my life, and that ball was coming down.” And I said, “Yeah, right.” He said, “No, it was.” And I tell that story to people, and they said, “I’ve never heard that.” I said, “No, that’s what Andy told us. When we were inducted into the Wall of Honor, he was 21 �Ozburn, Dolly telling us that story.” And then he said some colorful words when he was against the wall and said, “That just cost me seven thousand dollars.” Which was a lot of money then. Interviewer: “That would have been his World Series bonus?” Yes, yes, and he said…That’s the first time I’d ever heard that story, and nobody ever said that. I never heard it anywhere. And he told us that story when we were inducted. So those are the kinds of things that this movie has brought to us, that we have met a lot of people who are fantastic people. And we have done a lot of things that we never would have had the opportunity to do, you know. Interviewer: “Okay, and so there’s…My kind of closing question here is one that in different ways you’ve been answering kind of all along, but how do you think your time in the league affected you, or what did you take out of that?” Oh my gosh, you have a couple more hours? Okay, all of the women that I played with were older than me. (1:20:08) I went back to high school, and high school just didn’t seem right. I’d been on my own at play. Well, I did a dumb thing like sixteen-year-olds do. I told my dad…I was sixteen, and, you know, sixteen-year-olds, they don’t always think very well. And high school was just a whole different ball game for me, and I thought, “Man, what am I doing in school?” You know, so I told my dad, “Okay. Dad, I’m going to quit school.” “Okay,” he said, “that’s fine.” And I thought, “Uh oh. When he agrees with something like that right away, something’s wrong.” So the next morning—We live way out in the country, and the only way he got to town to his job was he caught a county bus that came by that bus stop at six o’ clock in the morning. And you better be out there at a quarter to six because you might not catch it. So five o’ clock my dad came in and said, “Wake up.” And I said, “Why? It’s five o’ clock in the morning.” He said, “Well…” He said, “You said you’re not going to school today.” He said, “If you live in this house, you have to have a job, or you go to school, or you move.” He said, “Now your mom has breakfast ready, you have to get ready, and she has the only job in this house. And I’m not firing her, so you got to go get a job today.” And I said, “Oh, well, I’m used to working anyway. I’ve been working since I was six years old.” So it didn’t bother me. (1:22:00) I said, “Oh, okay.” He said, “Well…” He said, “So you got to get up, and you have to be ready.” And I said, “But the unemployment office doesn’t open until nine o’ clock.” He said, “Well, you’ll be first in line.” He said, “Unless you plan on walking sixteen miles to town.” And I said, “No.” He said, “Then we have to be at the bus stop.” And I thought that over, and I thought, “Well, now I’m dumb, but I’m not stupid.” And I said, “Well, no, I think I’ll go to school.” He said, “I’m going to call your mom when the bus leaves to go to school, and you better be on it.” And I said, “Okay.” And the funny part of that is when I told my dad I’d save some money going to graduate school, he said, “Man, I kept you in school. Now I can’t get you out.” So that was the way it was at our house. You either work, or you go to school, you know. That’s your only choice, or you go out on your own. Well, at sixteen, I think, “Well, I’ve been out on my own, but I don’t think I want to do that.” And so I went back to school, but that was kind of a—sort of geared my life. But school wasn’t the same. My class was two hundred and some people, and, you know, you have these…In high school, you have sort of cliques here and there, but I was never a clique-y person. And I had bought my own car because of the league, and I could take my mother and dad where they needed to go. And then I had worked, so I could keep my car up because my dad said 22 �Ozburn, Dolly he wasn’t keeping it up. “It’s not mine. It’s yours.” So all of those things, and then…So I was a kind of independent person. (1:24:02) I would do things and say, “If anybody wants to go with me, they’re welcome to go. And if you don’t, fine. Stay home. If I want to do something, I do it, and anybody’s welcome to go.” And I was sort of an independent person. I didn’t, you know…Didn’t have a little—Except for the guys I ran around with that was on my team when we were younger. I didn’t have any really little, little clique-y things that I did. I just sort of did what I did, and most of the time it was evolved around baseball, basketball, football, or something. And I used to take a lot of the football players who were my friends—their mothers to the game. So I would go pick their mothers up, and we would all go to the game—and my friends—and we’d all go together. So it was…High school was…I think it totally changed my life that way. I think I was a lot more relaxed and open to other people’s opinions and other people’s…the way they lived and stuff because in order to live with a group of people, you know, you can’t be so obnoxious. And I think those girls would have got me in—straightened me out right away if I had gotten too bad, you know. Interviewer: “So the whole thing kind of launched you in a direction where you’re confident, you’re independent, you think for yourself, and just go forward.” That’s right. My confidence was great, and I think totally it helped my relationships with people. Totally. I mean, I came back a whole different person than I was because, I mean, you have to be a little—you have to be flexible. And I think too that I developed a whole different personality. I think I laughed more, and I joked more because if you didn’t joke and protect yourself, you were in trouble, you know. You had to get smart with the smart remarks. You had to, you know…And people like that, you know. (1:26:19) It’s different. We were talking about that. When you’re with the ball team, you’re not always PC, you know. And you say things, and they look at you. And shoot one back at you, you know, and I think that’s what I loved about playing ball, was we…You know, we were constantly saying things and looking at each other. “Yeah, right.” You know, and giving one back. And I think that changed my whole outlook on things. I think my confidence and the fact that I loved to give people, you know, trouble. And I still love it, but sometimes I get myself in trouble because people are a little more PC than they were, you know. And sometimes I do get myself in trouble that way, but Katie and I—We’re used to trouble. Like my daughter sent me flowers on my birthday, and she was on a trip. And she sent me one with a balloon that said, “Happy birthday, you old buzzard.” And I thought, “Oh boy. That’s it.” So I made myself a buzzard suit, and I met her at the airport in a buzzard suit. And she went, “Ahh!” like that, and she was so embarrassed. And I was in a buzzard suit, and everybody laughed. There were four or five planes coming in. Airport was packed. They all turned around and looked, and then they started laughing. So, I mean, you know, things like that. I learned to do things like that. Interviewer: “I’m not sure there’s going to be a good way to top that one, so I think I will just close this out by saying thank you very much for coming in and sharing your story.” Oh, sure. Oh, sure. (1:28:12) 23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_OzburnD1970BB Title A name given to the resource Ozburn, Dolly (Interview transcript and video),2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ozburn, Dolly Vanderlip Description An account of the resource Dolly Ozburn was born in Charlotte, North Carolina, in June 1937. At the end of the 9th grade, at the age of 14, she signed a contract with the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League team, the Fort Wayne Daisies in 1952. She played with the Daisies in 1952 and 1953, and played with the South Bend Blue Sox in 1954, the final year of the League. After the League’s end, she played with a travelling team created by Bill Allington (a former manager). Dolly played with the non-professional team from 1955 through 1958 before ultimately leaving organized baseball to attend college. She went on to be a physical education teacher and a coach, and collaborated with the filming of, A League of Their Own. Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Indiana Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f39d09c91fda9f7464146ea7fdab897.m4v 62854e5bedda8fad4df04af09e117c0b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78cb98fbfdcff1b0ff86220ecc9f606c.pdf 556289ff7ac13bbaf15ff349a4947d5c PDF Text Text O’Dowd, Annie Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Annie O’Dowd Length of Interview: (41:09) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay, now start us out with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born?” Okay, I was born in Chicago in 1929, which is ages ago. Interviewer: “Sure, it was. Now did you grow up in Chicago, or did you move around?” I grew up in Chicago and moved out, well, when I started playing ball. Interviewer: “Okay. What neighborhood of Chicago were you living in?” I was on the south side of Chicago. Interviewer: “Okay, that’s still a pretty big area. Is there a particular neighborhood within that that had a name that you remember?” I don’t remember the name, but it was around 59th and Kedzie. Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s not all the way west of Hyde Park and places like that.” Oh, yes, west of Hyde Park. Kedzie was 3200, I think. West. Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s kind of southwest side of the city.” Right. (1:06) Interviewer: “All right, and what did your family do for a living when you were growing up?” Well, my dad was the only one that worked. Mom stayed home. He was a driver for the Chicago Tribune, and that was all the income we had until I started playing ball. And then I got my paychecks playing ball. I sent them right home to Mom. 1 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “Okay. How did you learn how to play baseball?” Well, my brother was fairly athletic, and we used to, you know, throw the ball back and forth, back and forth. And we’d run up and down the street, and of course I played with all the boys on the street. And that’s how I learned to play ball. Interviewer: “Okay, now did the boys just let you do all the same things they did, or did they make you only do certain things?” Well, I was kind of the boss. Whether they liked it or not, I really don’t know, but I was kind of the leader of our street, which was Troy Street, Chicago. (2:11) And I became kind of a leader when I played professional ball. Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re growing up, you’re playing in the street...Now were there organized sports for girls in the schools or churches or parks?” Well, when I was growing up, there wasn’t any organized ballplaying. You’d go to the park and play and play in those games, but there wasn’t any really organized ballplaying. Interviewer: “Okay, now there were kind of semi-pro softball teams. There were teams that women played on in Chicago in that period.” Yes, there were. The Chicago Bloomer Girls and the Bluebirds, I think, and I don’t know. Can’t remember the name of the other teams that they had there, but I did go to some of the ball games, and they had—I don’t know. A team like bigger, bigger women than we were. I remember the Savona Sisters, and they were big and broad and tall and heavy. I mean, they were heavy. They were sturdy women. And yeah, I used to go to watch them play. Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re growing up in the period of the Depression and World War II. Do you know if your father had sort of steady work through the ‘30s?” Oh, yes, he had steady work, and I remember getting food stamps during the wartime for sugar and meats. Interviewer: “Oh, yeah, because you had the ration cards and all of that.” Right, right, right. I remember going to the butcher store, you know, handing over my little tickets. 2 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “Right. Okay, now did you finish high school?” Oh, yes. Interviewer: “And what year did you graduate?” Oh, 1947. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you graduated?” (4:11) After I graduated, a friend of mine—You know, we’re looking for jobs, and we weren’t skilled at anything that would be—take place in an office. So we had to work in a factory. Worked in a box factory, which was—It was pretty hard work, but that’s what I did for how many years. Don’t remember that, but then I did get a job in an office for Campbell’s Soup. Interviewer: “Okay, so how did you wind up becoming a professional baseball player?” Well, I read in the paper that there were tryouts at this Marquette Park, which I lived probably a mile, and so I thought, “I think I’ll go over and try out.” I wanted to be a first baseman, but the gentleman that was running the tryouts said, “I think you have the stature of being a catcher.” So I became a catcher, which I loved. Interviewer: “Okay, now had you played catcher periodically?” Oh, no, never. Never in my life. Interviewer: “Okay, now had you continued to play those pickup games even after high school? So were you still actively playing at the time you tried out?” Oh, sure. With the boys. Interviewer: “Okay, so that was going on even though you’re getting to be close to twenty years old. But there’s still people out there playing.” Right, right. Interviewer: “Okay, and your preferred position was first base.” That’s what I wanted to be. Yeah, first baseman. 3 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have some experience in other positions?” No, none. None at all. Interviewer: “Okay, so you never played outfield, or…?” (6:05) No, you played wherever you needed to be, and that’s the position I would play. Interviewer: “Okay, so why did you like first base?” It was full of action, and I wanted to be in on everything. But being a catcher, you’re in on everything. Everything, everything. Interviewer: “Yeah, now you’re calling the game.” Right, and you’re in charge. I guess I like being in charge. Interviewer: “All right, so the scout there or whatever—the person running this—they’ve seen that. Unless it was just exactly how tall you were or something, and said, ‘Oh, you should be a catcher.’” Yes, because I had that sturdy build. I was a little heavier than I am now, and he looked at me and said, “Oh, no, you’re going to be a catcher.” So then I was. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you went to this tryout, about how many women do you think were there?” Good question. I would say between twenty-five and fifty. Interviewer: “Okay, so a reasonable number of people. Now were a lot of them softball players, or do you not know?” Probably all of us were softball players. Interviewer: “Okay, so were you playing softball, too?” Oh, yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and was that still just the unorganized games?” 4 �O’Dowd, Annie Right, unorganized games. Interviewer: “All right, but when you were playing with the guys, were you sometimes playing baseball rather than softball?” No, mostly softball. Interviewer: “Okay, so your experience is in softball, but—So when you were actually trying out for the baseball, were they using now regulation sized baseballs, or was the league all the way there yet, or…?” No, the size of the ball was ten inches when I played, and you get used to playing with whatever size it is. (8:02) Interviewer: “Sure, because I think a standard baseball is nine inches, but softball in Chicago was as big as sixteen.” Oh, yes, and that was Chicago ball. They called it Chicago ball, which was what my brother played on, and he was very good. But that was a great game, Chicago ball. Interviewer: “Yep. All right, so this is spring of ‘49 now that you’re trying out?” Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “Okay, and do they tell you right away that they’re taking you, or do you have to wait?” I think they said I made the team, and I was very excited and went home and told my parents. And I waited until whatever was coming next. Interviewer: “So what does come next?” Well, next they said, “We’re going to go to spring training.” And I can’t remember exactly where that was, but I had to go away. It was out of town. Interviewer: “Did you go south for spring training?” It wasn’t very, very far away. I believe it was south. Interviewer: “But it wasn’t like North Carolina or Florida or some place like that.” 5 �O’Dowd, Annie No, no, no. No, no, no. Interviewer: “Okay. Well, that’s the kind of thing that gets looked up because it did move around quite a bit, and it was done different ways in different years.” Yes, right. I never got—When I saw the film, there were a lot of ballplayers. Everybody was in one place. When I went to spring training, it wasn’t that way. There were, you know, just a couple of teams. Interviewer: “Okay, so what team were you assigned to, or did you not have a team yet?” Well, when I first started, it was the traveling team, and I was on the Chicago Colleens. Interviewer: “Okay, now explain a little bit what the traveling teams were.” Oh, that was so much fun. It was really a lot of fun. You get in the bus, and you go to your destination. And we traveled to twenty-seven states in all, but it was fun riding the bus. (10:10) You’d sing and try to sleep and stop to go to the bathroom, and it was just a load of fun. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the purpose of these teams? Because these are not the regular league teams.” No, this was like a—What do they call it in real baseball? Interviewer: “Minor League?” Minor League. Thank you. Minor League, and, you know, you just play ball, and when they thought you were good enough, they’d send you up to the big leagues. Interviewer: “All right, because you had to kind of make the transition to playing, essentially, baseball rather than softball. Now were you older than a lot of the other players on those traveling teams?” Maybe a year or two. Interviewer: “Okay, because some of them talk about joining when they’re in their midteens.” Oh, no, I wasn’t that young. 6 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “Yeah, but some of them, you know, may have been. Okay, but you didn’t feel like you were a whole bunch older than they were.” Oh, no, not at all. Interviewer: “All right, now you’d go to a particular town on this tour, and then what happens?” Well, they put us up in a hotel. You’d go to your room, and then they’d tell you what time we were going to play ball the next day, and we would prepare for that. And the rest of it was, you know, do what you want, but you have to be back in your room by such and such time because, you know, there was a curfew. Interviewer: “Right, yeah. Now the league is sort of famous for having a lot of rules and regulations to govern what the player did, so which of those rules were still in place when you joined?” Well, the rules were you had to be in your room by such and such time. You could never wear slacks or anything. You always had to be in a skirt, which was not much fun, because today’s day and age, everybody wears long pants. (12:07) And the skirts were pretty hard to play in because, you know, you would get slide, and you would get strawberries, and that wasn’t any fun. But if your arm was sore or anything, the chaperone would come and give you a nice rubdown. And there were times when you didn’t have a sore arm, but you still wanted a rubdown, and that was the good part. Interviewer: “And then were there rules about—Did you have to wear makeup when you were out in public or that kind of thing?” Well, we didn’t have to wear makeup, but we had to be ladylike, and I did go to charm school. Interviewer: “I thought that the charm school had ended. It goes out at some point, but now were they doing the charm school when you were doing spring training, or…?” Yes, they had charm school when it was spring training. And yeah, you had to walk around with the book on top of your head. You had to learn to sit like a lady and walk like a lady. It was very good for you. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right, now did you have any troubles transitioning from softball to baseball, or was that easy?” 7 �O’Dowd, Annie Well, at that age it would be easy. Yeah, you didn’t even think about it. You just did it. It came automatically, really. Interviewer: “Okay, and what about learning to play catcher?” Well, that was something altogether new to me, and it wasn’t easy. The hardest part was keeping your eyes open when a bat was coming into sight. You know, you’d go like this, and if they popped it up, you didn’t know where the ball was. So you learned how to keep your eyes open. (14:01) Interviewer: “Okay, now did they have you calling pitches, or…?” Oh, yes. There weren’t that many pitches as there are today, but there were some. Interviewer: “Well, what would pitchers normally throw?” Fastballs. Normally they would throw fastballs. They would throw curves. Interviewer: “So at that level, it was—Normally they would just throw fastballs, and then would you call for location, or…?” Oh, yes, you’d call for location. And they did have curveballs and changeups and knuckleballs, but there weren’t any sliders or those types. We didn’t have that. Interviewer: “Okay, and was there more variety of pitches when you actually got to play with the regular teams? Did you now have pitchers who could do more things?” No, I don’t think so. I think it was what you learned at spring training is what you brought to the big leagues. Interviewer: “Okay, now how long did you stay with the traveling team? Was it a full season?” Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, that was a full season, which the seasons weren’t that long. Interviewer: “And what part of the country were you traveling around in?” Mostly Midwest and east. Oh, we’d go south, too. We were in South Carolina, and east, we were in New York, and then the Midwest. (16:03) 8 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of audiences did you attract?” Oh, there were good, good audiences. There were—I don’t know. I would say maybe five thousand people per game. Interviewer: “Which is pretty good even today for a lot of Minor League teams, so...Okay, and you were getting that back then. All right, and did you get local press coverage at all? Did you ever get interviewed?” Yes. No, I didn’t get interviewed, but they did take a lot of pictures. And I was on one of the brochures that they’d put up for a game, and that was nice. Interviewer: “All right, now when you’re thinking about the time that you spent with the traveling team, are there any particular memories or things that stand out for you?” On the traveling team? For myself? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Yes, there was one day I was playing, and it was very hot. And it was a doubleheader, and I had to catch both games. And somebody hit a popup, and I went for it. And I lost it in the sun, and the ball came right down on my eye. And I had a big shiner, but I continued to play. Interviewer: “Yeah, they might have taken you out today, but you stayed in.” No concussion. Interviewer: “Okay, that’s good anyway. All right, so you did one season essentially with the traveling team.” You would say that, maybe. I think maybe a year and a half. Interviewer: “Okay, because we have your dates recorded as sort of ‘49 through ‘51. That includes the time with the traveling teams?” Yes. (18:08) Interviewer: “Okay, so what were they paying you at that point? Do you remember?” 9 �O’Dowd, Annie It was...God, I can’t remember these things. I think I got a salary of $105 a week, and traveling money...Oh my god. Three dollars a day for food. And I thought, “Three dollars a day for food? That’s a lot of money.” Interviewer: “What would that buy?” Oh, you could go to a restaurant—twenty-five cents for a hamburger, five cents for a Coke—and it was cheap back then. Interviewer: “Okay, now eventually you go to the big leagues, basically, and what team did you play for first?” The Rockford Peaches. Interviewer: “Okay, and when you got there, were you a reserved player, or did you start catching right away?” No, I was second string—reserved—because I was a rookie. And I didn’t like sitting on the bench. For sure. But, you know, I did my sitting out and finally got to catch on a regular basis. Interviewer: “Okay, now who was pitching for that team at that time?” Oh, too hard of a question. Interviewer: “All right. How was life different when you’re playing on one of the regular teams than it was on the traveling team?” Well, actually the traveling team was more fun, and we were closer together. And when I went up to the big leagues as they call it, I didn’t really know anyone. (20:03) So it’s kind of hard. Interviewer: “And what kind of living situation did you have?” They arranged for us to stay in people’s homes, and so we had, you know, our own little bedroom and bathroom, which was very nice. Interviewer: “Now were there other women from your team staying at the same place you were, or…?” No, I was the only one. 10 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the family like that you were staying with?” Oh, they were as sweet as can be, you know. “Everything okay?” “Oh, yeah, everything is fine. Thank you.” And they didn’t bother you if you didn’t want to be bothered, but they were very sweet. Interviewer: “Okay, and so did they live close to the ballpark, or could you walk there, or did you have some other way to get there?” You know what? I don’t recall. I don’t recall that. I probably walked there. Interviewer: “All right, and do you have a sense of how well the team was playing? I mean, do they have a winning record while you’re with them, or…?” Too hard of a question. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you had to go and play road games, how would you get there?” On a bus that they got. Everywhere we traveled it was on a bus. Interviewer: “And how long were those bus rides?” Oh, sometimes they were very long. Eight hours, ten hours. Yeah, they were—But not in the big leagues because all the teams were in the Midwest, so that didn’t take long at all. Interviewer: “Okay. Well, Rockford to Grand Rapids at that point might have been four hours or something like that.” Right. Yeah, that was probably one of the longest rides. Interviewer: “Okay, and at that point—Do you remember some of the places you played? I mean, there was Grand Rapids…” Oh, yeah. Muskegon. (22:01) Racine. Interviewer: “I guess Fort Wayne and South Bend, maybe.” Oh, yeah, Fort Wayne, South Bend. You know, the memory button’s not too good anymore. 11 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “Okay, now were you a good defensive catcher?” I thought I was. I don’t know what the team thought, but I thought I was good at it. Interviewer: “Okay, well, one of the things the league is famous for is having women steal bases. It was one of the first things that separated you from women’s softball. So could you throw runners out?” Oh, yes. I would catch them leaning on first base and get them out. Interviewer: “Okay, so you do pick off a thrower first.” Right, and one of the things I used to do is I’d look at the pitcher and throw to first base. And that’s the way I caught them off base. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have much success throwing them out at second?” Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I had a fairly good arm. Interviewer: “Okay, now in the league, did the baserunners—Did they have a sense of who the good catchers were?” Oh, I think so. Interviewer: “So they were a little more careful about who they would run on.” I would think so. Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and were you a good hitter?” You know, I was a fair hitter. I don’t like to say I was excellent. I was decent. Interviewer: “Okay. Do you remember what your batting average was overall, or…?” Well, overall I think I was around 270. Interviewer: “Okay. And even today that’s pretty good for a catcher.” 12 �O’Dowd, Annie Yes. It’s not on the back of the card, though, that I hit that well. But it seemed to me I was always in cleanup, and I don’t think cleanup hitters are, you know, 240, 250. And on the back of the baseball card that’s what it was, and I know I was a better hitter than that. (24:08) Interviewer: “Well, some kind of hitters are power hitters. Did people hit a lot of home runs in that league, or were there not very many?” Some of the women, yes. There were some very, very good hitters that hit home runs. I was not a home run hitter. I was kind of line drives—left, center, and right—and I could hit to any field. I feel like I’m bragging about myself. Interviewer: “No, no. Our problem in doing these interviews is that people don’t want to say enough about themselves. They’re too modest. But we want to know this stuff. All right, now catchers are supposed to be slow.” Oh, and I was slow. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’ve got that one down.” I was as slow as a catcher usually is. Interviewer: “Now would you steal some bases anyway?” No, I was never a base stealer. I’d run as hard as I could, but I wasn’t a base stealer. Interviewer: “All right, now you started out playing for Rockford. And did you start playing catcher regularly for them, or did you do that at other teams later?” As I said before, I was on the bench when I first came out, but then to be a regular later. Interviewer: “But you were a regular for Rockford for a while?” Maybe the last part. The last month I was there. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you play a full season for Rockford, or did they trade you somewhere else?” No, I think I played a half a season for Rockford, and then they so-called traded me to Racine, and there I became first string. 13 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “Okay, and that all may have been designed. The league, I think, assigned people. They tried to get them…” Right. They wanted the teams to be even, and that’s why you got traded more than once. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have pretty much the same experience in Racine as in Rockford, or did you like it better there, or…?” (26:15) It was about the same. I got to know a few of those players a little bit, Sophie Kurys being one. The base stealer of all times. Yeah, I got to know her a little bit then. That was nice. She was a nice lady. Interviewer: “All right, now how long did you stay with Racine?” Oh, you ask these hard questions all the time. Interviewer: “Well, was it sort of the rest of one season and then on somewhere else, or…?” I probably played there for a season, and, as I said, I don’t remember. I think it was Kalamazoo, but I’m not sure about that. Interviewer: “Okay, but the last team you played for was the Lassies regardless of where you were.” Right, right, and then I thought, “Well, I better stop having all this fun and get a real job.” So I stopped playing ball and got a real job. Interviewer: “Okay. I mean, it was a real job in the sense that it paid pretty well.” Right. I don’t think it paid as well as playing ball, though. Interviewer: “Well, no. That’s actually what I was saying. So why wasn’t playing ball a real job?” It was too much fun. I mean, it wasn’t like a job at all. I mean, it was just fun. Fun, fun, fun. Interviewer: “Okay, now while you were playing—this was kind of through ‘51—were the teams still getting good attendance?” 14 �O’Dowd, Annie Yes, they were. You know, I couldn’t tell you what the attendance was, but there were a lot of people out there. Interviewer: “Okay, but you didn’t have a sense yourself that the league was in trouble, or…?” No, not at all. No sense of that whatsoever. (28:03) Interviewer: “Okay, so for you...was maybe just going and getting maybe a grown-up job, or…?” Well, I thought it was a grown-up job where you had to get up at seven in the morning and go to work. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you go back to Chicago to work, or did you go somewhere else?” Oh, back to Chicago. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of job did you take?” Well, I worked in the factory, and, you know, it was eight to four whatever. And it was not fun. It wasn’t as much fun as playing ball. Interviewer: “Okay, and so how long did you stay with that?” Let’s see. I worked in the box factory probably a couple of years, and then I went to Campbell’s Soup. And I was in the offices. A clerk. And then in my mid-20s, late 20s, I became a supervisor, an office supervisor. And from there on I got a job as a buyer for Ameritech Communications, and I ended up pretty high on the bracket. Interviewer: “Okay, so after you left the league, I mean, did you talk to people about having played baseball, or did they even know you did that?” People didn’t know I did it, and I didn’t talk about it because I thought people back then would think, “Oh my god, she’s so boyish or mannish.” I didn’t want to talk about it because they didn’t look up to people then or to women then. (30:02) It was all, you know. “Oh, you did that?” Interviewer: “Women weren’t supposed to do what men were doing.” 15 �O’Dowd, Annie Exactly. So never ever talked about it until 1992 when the movie came out, and that was excellent. Interviewer: “Okay, now when they made the movie, you know, they brought in some of the former players, and some of them helped train them, and they had events and things like that. Did you get invited to participate in any of that?” Well, I was there when they were shooting in Cooperstown, and you participated a little, you know. But I never really consulted or anything like that on the movie. Interviewer: “Okay, so how did they know to contact you? Had you stayed in touch with any of the players, or did the league have an organization that you were a part of by then?” I think the league… Interviewer: “Okay, so basically the league—They’re organized on some level. They’re trying to find people. So they find you at that point, and then you kind of get reconnected with them at that point. And so what do you think was sort of different from your experience to what’s in the movie?” (32:21) I think the movie was fairly correct except we didn’t have a pitcher or catcher that were sisters. They made that part up. Interviewer: “Yeah, but that was also supposed to be the first season, and you weren’t there yet. But yes, they made that up.” Yeah, but the good part of the movie was when the catcher went to get a foul ball. She did the splits. Well, I did the splits, and I was proud of that. Interviewer: “Okay. Do you remember who you had for managers?” All I can remember is Lenny, and I can’t remember his last name. And Max Carey. And I can’t remember the name of the Rockford Peaches coach. Can’t remember. Interviewer: “Okay. Did the managers do a good job?” As far as I was concerned, they did a fairly good job. I did not get to know a lot of pointers, which I thought I would get, but I didn’t get that many pointers on how to catch. I just kind of self-taught myself. 16 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “All right, and then I guess the other thing I wanted to ask about and hadn’t throw in here yet—I mean, you mentioned the chaperones briefly. You know, what did their duties consist of, and what did you think of them?” Oh, I liked the chaperones. Well, you know, they told you when to go to bed and what the schedule was for the next day, and they weren’t really too bad. They weren’t too tough on me. Of course, I never did anything wrong. Interviewer: “Well, you were also old enough and principled to kind of look after yourself anyway.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay, now the movie kind of depicts them as more sort of schoolmarmish or something like that. Well, do you think that part was fair?” (34:31) I think some of the chaperones were that way, yeah. I didn’t run into those. Interviewer: “All right, so once the movie comes out, now did you get people starting to contact you or get you to go places or do things or sign autographs or that kind of thing?” No, but—Not to sign autographs, but I did—And I still get mail to sign, you know. Baseball cards. Interviewer: “Right. So you’re on the list.” Yes, I’m on the list. Yeah. I get what? Maybe two a week, which is astonishing to me that people are still looking for autographs from 1949. Amazing. Interviewer: “All right. Now we’re doing the league’s reunion in Sarasota in 2016. Have you been to many of their events or reunions or…?” The only one I was—that I attended was probably one of the first ones in 1986 in Chicago. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were connected to them. That’s well before the movie.” Yes, yes, yes, yes. 17 �O’Dowd, Annie Interviewer: “So that would be how they find you at that point. Okay, so why did you come this year?” Because I live in the Villages, and this is only a couple hours away. So I can get a friend to drive me down here, so I thought this would be a good time to come. (36:13) I am going to Florida— Miami—for the next one. Is it the reunion? Interviewer: “The FanFest.” FanFest. Interviewer: “The big baseball FanFest. Okay, now after the movie came out, did you tell anybody at that point?” Oh, yeah. Then I was very proud of what I did. And yeah, I said, “Did you see the movie A League of their Own?” “Oh, yeah.” “Well, I was one of the original ballplayers.” Yes, I was very proud of that. Interviewer: “Oh, good. All right, to think back at the time then that you spent playing ball, I mean, what do you think you took out of that, or what did you learn from it?” Well, I learned to be patient and be more truthful with people. Not that I was not truthful, but I feel like I was more truthful then. And what else? I don’t know. Interviewer: “Well, do you think it helped you at all—your career afterward, especially as you sort of moved up and got more responsibility?” Well, as I said, I was kind of a team leader, and that’s how I was when I got into the office work. And I became, you know, a manager. And people like me because I was fair. I was hard when I had to be, but I was very fair. And I think I got that from playing ball. Interviewer: “All right, now if you think back over your playing career, and you think back just to that time, is there anything else that kind of stands out in your memory there that you haven’t brought into the story yet? (38:19) Events or people or impressions of things?” Well, I was very impressed when I went to Yankee Stadium. Interviewer: “Talk about that. Why did you go to Yankee Stadium?” 18 �O’Dowd, Annie Well, there was the traveling team then, and it was just amazing to see all the old ball players up there. Just—It was—I can’t explain how I felt. Interviewer: “Now did you play a game there?” Yes, played a game in Yankee Stadium. And don’t remember if I got any hits or anything like that, but it was... Interviewer: “All right, now were you doing your game as like an exhibition before a regular game, or were the Yankees not there that day, or…?” I don’t think the Yankees were in town that week. Interviewer: “Okay, so you don’t remember meeting any of them or anything like that?” No, I don’t. Interviewer: “Okay. Do you remember if you went to any other Major League stadiums? Went to Washington or someplace else?” I think it was the Washington Senators then, and Connie Mack, I think, was still managing then. Did I meet him? Don’t recall. It’s awful. I don’t recall a lot of things. Interviewer: “All right. Well, he would have been kind of old by then.” Yes, he was pretty old. Interviewer: “But he did that a long time. Yeah, I guess we normally associate him with Philadelphia, but if you were going up the East coast, you might have gone there, too.” (40:08) Well, didn’t he—Wasn’t he a manager for the Washington Senators? Interviewer: “He might have been. I’m too young to remember Connie Mack.” Oh, now you’re bragging. You’re too young. Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, I know. All right, but I had heard of him in association with Philadelphia Athletics, but anyway. Okay, so yeah, you got to see a good chunk of the country along the way there.” 19 �O’Dowd, Annie Twenty-seven states. Interviewer: “All right. I think we have pretty much covered what I had in mind. Anything else we ought to be talking about?” I think you should interview Jill. Interviewer: “All right. Anyway, I would just like to close this by thanking you for taking the time to talk to me today.” Oh, you’re entirely welcome. 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_ODowdA1971BB Title A name given to the resource O'Dowd, Anna (Interview transcript and video), 2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource O'Dowd, Anna Mae Description An account of the resource Annie O’Dowd was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1929. She graduated from high school in 1947 and worked in a box factory before trying out for the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League in 1949. She was initially placed in the Chicago Colleens, a travelling team (similar to a minor-league team), and played with them for a season. After the Colleens, she joined the Rockford Peaches and played with them for half of a season. The final team she played with was the Kalamazoo Lassies in the early 1950s before leaving the League. Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Wisconsin Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bd0f453c3a40866bec3cf03c51eeafff.m4v 3812f027512cfff457e7406e59d022bb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a3231b8061e3eadca4e02ed2cc105680.pdf 1fa05fc89baa431e119c9a2c0f5900d5 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW NORMA DEARFIELD, Second Base Women in Baseball Born: 1928 in McKeesport, Pennsylvania Resides: White Oak, Pennsylvania Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 7, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, October 13, 2010 Interviewer: “Can you start by giving us a little bit of background on yourself? To begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in McKeesport, Pennsylvania to Mr. And Mrs. James Whitney. There were five of us in our family and I was the second oldest. Interviewer: “In what year were you born?” I was born in 1928. Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living then?” Dad worked on the railroad and my mother stayed at home and was a homemaker and took care of all of us. 1:34 Interviewer: “Now with the railroad, was your father able to keep his job then during the depression?” He did keep his job, but he was on what they called the extra board and he went out when they called him and he was one of his family members that, of the men, that still really kept their job and worked. They shared with each other, food that they had gotten from some of the places that gave out certain foods, so they shared with each other and made it through. 2:08 Interviewer: “How did you get involved in sports?” 1 �Well, when I was very young I always had a tennis ball, always, and I was throwing it into the house or anywhere and catching it. I don’t know, I just liked playing ball and the Christmas when I was about twelve years old, I asked for a baseball glove and my mother told me that girls don’t get baseball gloves and I said, “then I don’t want anything for Christmas, if I can’t have a glove, I don’t want anything”, so needless to say, I did have this glove and it was the same glove I played--my dad bought me a good glove at the time which surprised me, but it was the same glove that I still have today ad that I played in the league with. We didn’t have organized sports at that time in our city, so we just made up our own teams and played other cities next to us. 3:17 We played each other and my dad was out coach and I just played until I was probably eighteen or so and after high school I just got a job and I was working and I saw a little piece in the paper, just a little tiny article, for tryouts in McKeesport, Pennsylvania for the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. Well, I never had heard about it, I didn’t know anything about it, so I called the girls on our team and I asked them, “let’s go out and see what this is all about”, so when we got there seventy-five to a hundred girls were there from Ohio, West Virginia and different places, so we got out there and we had to bat, field, infield, outfield, slide into base, just everything they wanted us to do we had to do, so when it was over they just said that they would send us a letter saying whether we made it or not. 4:30 I had gotten a letter to South Bend, myself and another girl, so then my dad and my mother knew nothing about this league and they didn’t know if they wanted me to go by myself, so my dad said, “I’ll go with you and I’ll stay for a few days to find out what this is all about”. So, being that he worked on a railroad we had a pass and off we went to Chicago to go on the train. He had a sister that lived in Gary, Indiana, so he stayed with 2 �her you know, and would come back where we were on the field and stayed with me for three days and talked with whoever he had to talk with and felt comfortable leaving. 5:20 Then I had to tryout there. Davie Bancroft was the one that was doing it the day that I was trying out, was coaching us. I can remember we had to go out on a field at the position that we played and I had never had a baseball hit to me, I had softballs and the field was shorter and the balls were bigger, so the first time I fielded the ball, I did field it and I turned my head a little and he pointed the bat at me and said, “if you want to play in this league you can break your nose or knock your teeth out, but don’t turn your head”. 6:13 Now I’m more nervous and I thought I better do what I know that I can do, so I did, so then I had to do everything that they expected of us to do you know and then when that time was over eventually, I was told that I was going to stay and I was put on the team. Interviewer: “So when you got to South Bend and you were doing the tryout, were there a lot of other girls trying out at the same time or just you?” Oh yeah, there were many of them, I don’t know how many, but there were many of them all trying out. Interviewer: “Did you have any sense of where they were from or how far they had come to do this?” Not really, at the time I didn’t know them and I really didn’t know anybody, I was just—I felt so alone, but you make good friends with them real fast and most of them were from—a lot of them that I was friends with were from the states around here. 7:13 Interviewer: “But basically you were just going on with your life in Pennsylvania, what kind of a job did you have when you were there?” 3 �After school I got a job at the J.C. Murphy Co. warehouse and I worked there just filling orders for the stores and things. Interviewer: “The league that you were playing in, was it a women’s league or a girls league? What was that?” Back home? It was girls they were all girls. Interviewer: “Did you have people actually come to watch the games or did you just go and play?” Oh yeah, the local people, we had not a lot, but they knew when we were playing and they gathered around. We went to different cities close to us and played other teams because we had to organize our own games ahead of time and schedule the women that played. 8:16 We played from the time I started at sixteen I guess until I was called to go to this league. Interviewer: “What year was it that you joined the league?” 1949 Interviewer: “So now you have gotten the call and you tried out. Probably most of those girls trying out at South Bend didn’t make the team, they had a lot of them.” A lot of them didn’t I guess. Interviewer: “Did they tell you right there whether you made the team or not?” Yes, at the end of the few days that I was there. That’s when they told us if we were placed or not and everyday we tried out and had to do something different and different things you know. Interviewer: “Could you hit as well as field?” 4 �I did pretty good, I had a couple triples, but I never had a home run. I was a fast runner and I could steal bases. I batted second all the time and most of the time if I’d gone on from hitting I knew I was going to get to second or third. 9:22 Interviewer: “I’m going to go back here. You signed up with the South Bend club at the start of the season or was the season already going?” At the start and I left in, I think it was May, and I didn’t come home until September. I stayed right there the whole time. Interviewer: “Did they have any kind of spring training before the games started or did you just start playing games?” Well, we had some spring training and that’s—I can’t remember what field we tried out at, but I was over in South Bend for spring training before we started. Interviewer: “So, they were doing their training just right there. They weren’t off in some other location that year?” Right Interviewer: “When you joined the team that year, were most of the players veteran players who had been there for a while or did they have a lot of new ones?” 10:16 Most of them were veteran players who had been there over the years, but that was during spring training and then I was put on the touring team which were all new players. We toured the country, more or less, to keep baseball alive. Interviewer: “The league had two touring teams didn’t they and they would travel around together and play each other?” Yes, the Chicago Colleens and the Springfield Sallies. 5 �Interviewer: “Which one were you on?” The Chicago Colleens Interviewer: The Chicago Colleens, all right, they were all basically newer or younger players who were doing this?” Some were—we had one or two that were fifteen or sixteen and at that time I was eighteen, nineteen. Interviewer: “If it was 1949, probably twenty, twenty one. So, you were a little bit older then?” 11:19 Older than some of them, but a lot were around my age or even older. Interviewer: “Do you remember where you went, some of the places or states you went to?” We were in like thirty-eight states. We went through the Midwest and out as far as Texas, Oklahoma, all in through some of the western states, South Carolina and Georgia, almost all of them. I have little pennants from every state and I had one wall filled with every city that we played in because we played in several cities in one state when we would get there. We traveled all night. Interviewer: “How were you getting around?” By bus, it was like a school bus and not a very comfortable one, but we would travel short distances some of the time and sometimes as long as two or three hundred miles to the next city. 12:21 Interviewer: “All right now, what kind of reception did you get in the towns that you played in?” 6 �Oh, a lot, there were a lot of people and they were very receptive to us. They had a lot— I’m trying to think, several times we had several thousand people there for the games. Interviewer: “Are there any particular places you went that stand out in your mind and you went to a lot?” Not too many because we really didn’t have time to do a lot of sightseeing or anything like that, but we had some time during the day, but most of the time it was just play ball, take the bus to the next town, go to bed because you didn’t sleep good because you traveled all night and then you had to get to the Laundromat to wash the clothes that you had. You only had a little small suitcase and you weren’t allowed to take much of anything. 13:32 Interviewer: “This version of the league, or this part of it, how much of the sort of rules and regulations on dress or conduct or things like that, how much of that applied to you?” About the same as what was in the league. We were not allowed to wear shorts or slacks on the street. We had to have skirts on. We could change in the bus, just pull them up and take the shorts off and put a skirt on to go out. When I was in spring training I had to go to charm school to learn how to sit and conduct yourself sitting, walking, drinking coffee and things like that. 14:28 Interviewer: “Was this new to you or just new to some of the other girls, having particular rules like that to follow? No, pretty much at home we had to “yes ma’am”, “no ma’am”, we didn’t get up from the table unless we asked to be excused and I still did that with my kids today, so it was easy to do. 7 �Interviewer: “Did they have rules about socializing or anything else like that? If you were riding around on the bus all the time you didn’t need to worry about it.” We didn’t have time to—like the girls in the league, they had more time to go out in the evening, in the daytime rather and socialize, but we didn’t have very much time to socialize. We were busy just playing ball. Every night we played a game including Sunday and sometimes two on Sunday. 15:24 Interviewer: “What sort of people did you have in your audience, who would come to watch these games?” There were children and all sorts of people that were with them. A couple of servicemen, you would see them in the crowd, but most of them were just families and people that wanted to come and watch because they advertised ahead of time, so they knew. They had our pictures in store windows and different things before we got there. 16:32 Interviewer: “Now, when you came into a town, did they ever do anything for you or any promotional events or did you have to show up places for different things?” Not too much, not too much because like I said, we were—by the time we would come in most of us would try to get an hour or two of sleep because you had to try to sleep on the bus sitting up on the straight seat. We had some free time that we could walk down the street and look things a little bit over, but not too much, it was mostly all-Interviewer: “Alright now, you were playing in skirts right?” Right Interviewer: “You had these skirts etc. and you were a runner and a base stealer, so did you have problems with “Strawberries” and all that?” Yes I did, several times on the side from sliding, stove fingers. 17:30 8 �Interviewer: “ You’re playing on whatever playing field is available too, so were some of them in not so good shape?” Some of them were not real smooth, but we managed and we played on them. Interviewer: “Did the group of you traveling together, did you kind of make a good set of friends there, being together with these women all the time?” Oh yeah, even though we were two teams, we were all very close and we still are today. Interviewer: “Did you play the full season?” Yeah, I played every game except toward the end of the season I got hit in the eye with an elbow, actually my manager’s elbow, and I had double vision for two weeks, so I didn’t play. Then I went back on and I played every game, so after that I played, which resulted in an eye injury later and it stopped my playing ball. 18:37 Interviewer: “How did you get a manager’s elbow in your eye?” We were—a bunch of us kind of fooling around and it just swung around or something, I think it was his elbow or something and so that—that’s the only time I didn’t play. Interviewer: “But then you did not come back for the next season?” Well, what happened was between the two seasons I went back to work at Murphy company, at my job, and my sister worked there also, so I was coming home, got off the bus and was walking down the street to home and I got terrific pain in my eye and I grabbed it, that same eye that I had—it was like a very sharp pain, so I just pulled my eyelid down because I thought maybe I got something in my eye and I said, ok, everything’s ok”, and we went on until I got in the house. Shortly after I thought, “I can’t see out of this eye”, so I would hold my good eye and I’d look at my sister of my mother or my dad and I said, “daddy, I can’t see too much out of this eye, and I had a sharp pain 9 �in it. I don’t know what’s wrong, but I can’t see very good”. 20:02 The next day he took me to an eye doctor and he looked in it and said, “there’s something there, but I’m not sure, I think you need to see a surgeon”, so he took me to an eye surgeon the next day and he looked in my eye and he said, “you have a detached retina”. I didn’t know what a detached retina was and I said, “What is that?” He said, “that means you’re going right from here to the hospital”. I said, “oh no, I can’t” and I was dating my husband at that time and he played “roller hockey’, so he had a game in Ohio and his birthday was coming up and this was on a Wednesday that I was at the doctor and I said, “I can’t go, I’ll come back on Monday”, and he said, “you’ll be operated on Friday, this is very serious and we’ve got to get this taken care of”, so I was operated on Friday and I laid thirty three days in a hospital with both eyes bandaged, they had to tell me when to open my mouth and feed me, I couldn’t move, my bed was flat, my head was hurting, my dad tried to get a little thin air pillow and they said absolutely not. 21:24 Back then you laid all that time, so the last day I was ready to come home and the doctor sat on the bed beside me, at the time I knew I was going to go to south Bend up in the league, so he said, “your dad tells me that you play baseball?”, and I said, “yeah and I’m excited because this year I’m going up in the league”, and he said, “I just hate to tell you this, but you’re not going to be able to play baseball any more”, and I said, “oh yeah, I’m going to, I have to you know”, and he said, “If you do you’ll have, if it detaches again, little or no eyesight in that eye”. 22:18 Naturally my parents did not allow me to go and that kind of ended my baseball career, which was very devastating. I really, really wanted to go especially up in the lake you know, even though I enjoyed where I was, everything we did. Then I had to wear those big pin point glasses with the little dot for about two 10 �months after and I was led around like a—my dad had to build a box so my plate would sit level and I wasn’t allowed to—if I sneezed I had to hold my head. I had a whole list of do’s and don’ts. So, I guess at that time, so now when I go for new glasses my doctor said, “Norma, if you had that detached retina today you would be playing ball in two weeks because they glue it”, so that was the end of my career, but I’ve come to all the reunions and stayed in touch with all the girls. 23:16 Interviewer: “Did you stay in touch with the girls immediately after you left or did you connect after the organization formed?” That’s part of it, I mostly was with the girls that I knew from the two teams, but the more I came to the reunions I got to know everybody, so we just talk to anybody that comes past. Interviewer: “Once you stopped having to wear pin point glasses and all that kind of thing, did you go get married then or what did you do?” Shortly after, well no, we dated for a couple of years and after that he and my dad came out a couple places to see me while we were dating. We played in Springfield, Ohio and one place in Pennsylvania and I just—yeah, we dated and then after three years of that we ended up getting married and I had four children and now I have ten grandchildren and three great grandsons. 24:30 Interviewer: “In this case your husband knew you played ball, and did your family know that, did your friends know that because a lot of players just went off and nobody knew they had ever done that?” Well, I don’t think anybody like in the city or anything like that really knew. My family knew, in fact when we were in Pennsylvania and Ohio a couple of them came there to see 11 �us play, but it wasn’t until after the movie that kind of—even myself I just went off, got married, raised kids and I never worked after that and it just went on until I got a letter one day to come to the film if I wanted to, so I went and I played in the movie. I played second base at the end of the movie and other than that it was just life after baseball. 25:34 Interviewer: “Aside from getting an elbow in your eye, how do you think that experience affected you? Did it change you at all or did you take anything with it?” With what? Interviewer: “The experience of playing in the league for that year.” You mean—I’m not understanding. Interviewer: “Well, basically the experience of having played professional baseball for a year and going around with those teams and that kind of thing. Do you think that had any kind of a lasting effect on you and did you learn something from it or gain something from it that stayed with you?” Well, you were just—when you were finished playing ball that was just the end of it. It seemed like—it didn’t do anything after that and like I said, I got married shortly after and just went on. It was just a lot of friendship that we made and I’ve kept them over the years and I still keep in close contact with several of them mostly talking on the phone. 26:52 Interviewer: “It got sort of into the seventies and the eighties and you had things like Title IX coming in and you actually had an effort to recruit girls into organized sports and this kind of thing, did you pay much attention to that?” 12 �Yes, I coached girls softball and was on the board of directors of the McKeesport Board Association which then was starting to be organized sports, but I coached girls softball for several years until—I even had to take the children with me, not when they were little I didn’t get involved, but when they started getting bigger I got involved in sports and like I said, I did coach girls softball and then stayed involved for a while in this organization with them trying to get other fields because they didn’t have a lot for girls, back in our town it was all boys. 27:56 Where I tried out at our local park in McKeesport the park had a lot of property there we worked hard trying to—we wanted to have a whole complex like four fields maybe and concession stands and that and we got a lot of people to donate equipment and everything, but you know they—it just wouldn’t go, they just blocked us in different ways. I guess it was going to cost them a lot of money, the city, but we had a lot of volunteers, but it didn’t work out. 28:43 then baseball just—you know you got older and kind of—I mean I’m still very, I mean I never miss a game from the Pirates not seeing them, and I mean I do see several and I’ll watch them and they will say, “are you still watching them Pittsburgh Pirates?” and I say, “well, yeah”, it’s the only team we have, so I have to root them on. 29:03 Interviewer: “ I’m afraid I’ve been a Cubs fan all my life, so I know something about following futility.” You know what, when my daughter—my son-in law is an oral surgeon and he did his oral surgery residency down at Charleston South Carolina and I would go down there and the only two teams I could see was the Cubs or the Atlanta Braves, so I was—I have 13 �relatives in Ohio and Indiana, so I’m kind of like a Cub fan also because that’s what I watched when I was down there and that’s what they would watch. 29:54 Interviewer: “At least the Pirates have won a few world series in the past century, so—to think back to the year you spent traveling around with the Colleens, are there particular people who stand out in your memory? Are there particularly good friends that you made and spent a lot of time with?” There are several that I have stayed real close with, Toni Palermo, she was a shortstop, so she and I had a combination there and there are several that I have kept in contact with at, Jane Moffet, in fact I was up in New Jersey three weeks ago for—they were honoring her for her life more or less, before baseball, during baseball and also her eightieth birthday party, so there were about eight girls up there and they were the ones that were real close here at reunions. I do, I stay in touch with a lot of them yet. 30:59 Interviewer: “Are there anything that happened, any particular moments in any of those games that stand out in your mind?” One game stands out in my memory, we were losing and two were on base and I got a triple and won the game more or less, so you have memories like that and you kind of clear the bases, but I wasn’t real big, so I wasn’t strong enough to get some of the home runs, but I did have a couple triples, but it was mostly singles and doubles and things like that. 31:42 Interviewer: “Were you a good defensive player?” Yes, I felt I was Interviewer: “So, you could turn a double play?” Yes and Toni was really good at that too. 14 �Interviewer: “She’s a dynamic character, we talked to her last year some. All right, anything you would like to add to the record here before we close out the interview?” No, just that the memories have lasted forever playing ball. Like I said, we lost the part we weren’t together, but you never forgot those days and the friends even before the movie we were still friends with some of them and we still are. It’s sad when every year we’re losing so many of them now, but I still keep pretty active. I go to aerobics four days a week, I most days for an hour, I don’t know how far I walk, but I walk for about an hour and I do a lot of volunteer work taking older people to their doctors appointments and helping kids do thing, so I stay pretty active. 33:05 Interviewer: “That’s pretty impressive and thank you very much for coming and talking to us.” Well, I enjoyed it. : 15 �16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_NDearfield Title A name given to the resource Dearfield, Norma (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dearfield, Norma Description An account of the resource Norma Dearfield was born in McKeesport, Pennsylvania in 1928. She talked her parents into giving her a baseball glove for Christmas when she was twelve, and played on local girls' teams while in high school. She saw an ad in the newspaper for tryouts for the All Americans in the spring of 1949, and played all that summer for the Chicago Colleens on their barnstorming tour. She played second base, batted second and stole a lot of bases. An eye injury at the end of the season ended her professional career, but she later coached girls' softball teams in her home town. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/edf6ea96ce3a3b8d27b8aa8486091ae9.m4v 516fe0549183d38c91a9a8edb4954cfb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/278bfd3f3ddb49309938f0317af82d00.pdf 4a152365e58ab35fb6c00d81193c56f3 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Mary Pratt Length of Interview: (00:55:55) ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW MARY PRATT, Pitcher Women in Baseball Born: Bridgeport Connecticut 1918 Resides: Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 11, 2010 Interviewer: “If we can begin with your name and where and when were you born?” My name is Mary Pratt and I was born in Bridgeport, Connecticut in 1918. Interviewer: “Shat was your early childhood like?” My early childhood, I would say, would be up until the time that we left Connecticut and came up to Massachusetts because my dad had been working down in Groton, Connecticut on the submarines and all of a sudden the war was over, so he became a Certified Public Accountant and then came the depression, so I have been able to be a part, in my lifetime, of going through those eras. :56 In 1926, I believe, we all came back to where my dad was an only child up in Quincy, Massachusetts and there I went into junior high school. Interviewer: “Before high school, when did you first start getting involved in sports? Was it any kind of sports or was it baseball first?” Well, it was anything that the boys would let me join in and so I would go over, this was down in Connecticut, I would go over into the back yard of the boys across the way who had that familiar peach basket and they would let me shoot. It’s a thing that I will never regret and even though I’m looking for the girls to get more leadership roles, but if it wasn’t for the boys who gave me the opportunity and mother never said no as long as she knew where I was she let me go right along and it was the boys, see I grew up in an era where there were few opportunities for girls especially where I lived on the east coast of the U.S.A. 1:57 Interviewer: “What was the appeal of baseball early on, not later, but early on? What was the appeal of baseball?” 1 �Well, it was just the fact that—when I look back I often wonder, “Why did I just all of a sudden start pitching and playing with the boys?” I think I maybe just had a normal way of throwing and maybe it just came to me naturally and as a result they let me play and that continued right on until I’m getting out of college and still playing with the boys. 2:26 Interviewer: “Now you did graduate from high school?” I graduated from North Quincy High School, the class of 1936. Interviewer: “What happened after that? Where were you going after that?” After that—I always had in my mind that I wanted to go on to college and I want to become a physical educator. As I look back now, never realizing that I was going to be a teacher and I didn’t really realize what were the hardships that I was going to follow through because everything that I got in my undergraduate wasn’t going to be—it would help me a little bit, but it wasn’t going to be the thing that enabled me then to teach that whole vast area of physical education and in the end to be working in special needs. 3:14 Interviewer: “So, what university did you decide to go to?” I went to Boston University and Sargent College, which is a unit in the university and it was then over in Cambridge right next to the Harvard tennis courts. It wasn’t until the fifties that the university took Sargent and we went on to the campus on Commonwealth Avenue. I graduated from college in 1940 and was so fortunate that in 1941 I would get a position for eleven hundred dollars, twenty-seven fifty a week, but I thought I had the world with a fence around it. I had gotten a permanent job. 4:02 Interviewer: “While you were in college though, you started playing ball, is that right?” Well, I always remained active, but see I was still going through college where there was not any collegiate competition for girls, but we did have a wide and a broad program where I got introduced to lacrosse, to field hockey, to the things that I had never had in high school because in high school it was just all intramurals. 4:34 Interviewer: “Now, did you play softball in college?” Well, I played softball in college because in 1939 I got word that Walter Brown, who owned the Boston Garden, wanted to do something in the summer and there had never been much going on and all of a sudden I heard that he was going to sponsor a team and then I walked to the Boston Garden and walked out to short stop and of course I was a “lefty” and they said to me, “you know you can’t play short stop, you’re a lefty”, so I went home and there was a gentleman who had just come off the last boat from Ireland and there curling was quite similar to the way we pitched softball and I was always quite 2 �determined, so I went out in the back yard and practiced with my father and pitched in the Boston Garden in 1939, and in 1940 it was an honor to think that Walter Brown took us down to Madison Square Garden and we played in New York. 5:32 Interviewer: “What kind of a team was that? Was it a women’s team?” It was a women’s team and it really was not a league. Some places like New York we heard did have leagues between New York and Connecticut, but this was just something that Mr. Brown did. He actually made up a schedule—well, we played in a lot of different places, but we were not playing in a regular league. 5:58 Interviewer: “In college you knew you wanted to be in physical education, beyond that did you think in terms of being a teacher in a high school? What were your goals at that time?” It really wasn’t, it was just a thought that I wanted to teach physical education. I never really knew what teaching was all about and I had to learn the hard way, but I just found that through physical education I was indirectly teaching a child how to take care of themselves and I hope that I was an example for them and that I wasn’t just teaching them a lot of theory. 6:41 Interviewer: “Now, first of all you were a left hander and you were playing shortstop and then turned into a pitcher?” I was a lefty, a long arm they call it. Yes, because they told me that the extra step that I would have to take to get my body in position to throw over to first would be the step that I would lose the runner, so I took to pitching, but prior to that I had always played with the boys on the playgrounds and so I always threw overhand, so they understood what I was doing when I was pitching, but of course when I went to get into the All American it was softball style pitching. 7:28 Interviewer: “We’ll get to that. Now, The Boston Olympets?” The Olympets, the Limpets was the Boston Garden semi-pro hockey team and they had the Boston Olympets, which was us. I played for two seasons there, 1939 and 1940. They took the diamond and put it on a diagonal and they put a post down by first base and as a lefty you could quite readily hit into the stands, but that would only go for a single, but to hit it to left field was a long, long distance at the garden. 8:09 Interviewer: “You did finally graduate and got a degree, what were you thinking you were going to do next? What were your plans once you got your degree?” I got my bachelors degree. 1940, I just wanted to be sure I could get a position and at the beginning I didn’t my first year, but I had taken up officiating and that filled the void a little tiny bit and I went to one of the private schools, an academy there in Braintree and I did their after school program. In 1941 I signed on with Quincy and continued my officiating for fifty years because see, there were no opportunities for me to coach. 8:50 3 �Interviewer: “1941, December, do you remember where you were on Pearl Harbor day?” Oh that’s right, not only did thoughts come back to what is it thirty years later I go out to the Pacific and go to where I saw where the—the boat was still down there where it was sunk. Interviewer: “Do you remember Pearl Harbor Day and where you were?” I remember it and I remember people were celebrating and I say the same thing, I was so busy working and teaching school and being wrapped up in my officiating and then starting to get in with my alumni associations that it never appeared to me that I was losing out on everything, I was just constantly active, mostly in elementary and then eventually they added the junior high and eventually I left the public schools and went on to the colleges. 9:50 Interviewer: “We’re going to back up now, 1943, I think you got an invitation of some kind?” Oh, I got that nice call and Ralph Wheeler, he was the schoolboy editor for the Boston Herald and he apparently had been contacted to see if there was anyone in this area who had played a little organized ball. Dotty Green, who has now passed on, Dotty was from Natick and she had played with me in the garden and she had already got out to Chicago, so she must have mentioned my name and Ralph Wheeler asked me if I would want to go out to Chicago and here I had been making twenty-seven fifty teaching school and I was offered sixty dollars to play ball and to think that when I arrived in Chicago after getting off the nights sleeper they could have sent me to South Band, they could have sent me to Kenosha, they could have sent me to Racine and where did they send me, to Rockford and I became a Rockford Peach in July of 1943. 11:02 Interviewer: “Now the Rockford Peaches, that was one of the original teams.” One of the original teams and when they put me on the night sleeper and I got out to Chicago I met Mr. Salls at the Merchandise Mart and Mr. Salls had been Mr. Wrigley’s right hand man and he must have gotten me on another train and I landed at the 15th Avenue stadium and I had become a Rockford Peach and sixty years later Penny Marshall made a movie and it centered around the Rockford Peaches . 11:39 Interviewer: “I want you to go back to that day when you first walked on the field as a Rockford Peach. Do you remember that?” I was very humble because see, I had never really had much competition and who did I run into? All the California girls and Canadians who couldn’t understand why I had never had the opportunity to be in league competition, so when I got there in 1943 so many outstanding girls from California and then in 1944 along come the Californians who had also played a lot, so we on the east coast, I think, did well to be able to fit into 4 �that style of play and to think that I was able to play for Marty McManus who had managed the Boston Red Sox and Johnny Gottselig who was a Chicago Blackhawk hockey player. 12:37 It was the start of a wonderful experience that I just never will forget. Interviewer: “What were your first games like? Did you start pitching right away?” I was pitching—I’m short and I wasn’t that great a hitter, so I didn’t get off of outfield or first base, but as I look back on it, I don’t know how it was that I wasn’t kind of scared , but it’s just that I’ve always had enough interest in sports to know that you don’t do anything by yourself and maybe that attitude came across to some of the girls that I played with because some of the girls that I played against, pitchers, they were outstanding, they had brought so much experience into the league, but I’ve always listened and I knew some day I might coach, so I listened to those coaches and we had outstanding coaches and I learned so much from them. 13:30 Interviewer: “In 1943 they weren’t pitching overhand and you had been pitching overhand, is that correct?” Oh, when I was playing with the boys on the regular playground, that was overhand pitching, but when I played in the garden, that was softball style. Interviewer: “How was it in 1943? How were you pitching in 1943?” In 1943, when I got out to Rockford, I pitched—as I look back there were variations of “windmill” and “slingshot” and I think I was just doing the traditional “windmill” where as I noticed the Canadian girls, they used that same old “figure eight”, but I just watched because whether I knew that I was going to go into a profession that maybe had the sport. I had to wait a long time because they wouldn’t let the girls coach, but it eventually came and all that helped me as I went along and finally got some girls into ASA competition and into a world tournament. 14:44 Interviewer: “Now, I realize looking back on it you can make lots of recognition of what you accomplished, but while you were playing in 1943, did you have any idea that this was going to go on another year or two years?” No, because they signed us to contracts every year, so in 1943 as I said, I’d just got assigned to Rockford, but I was new and as I look back at it I didn’t have what you would call a good record, but I think the coaches always used to notice that I was really interested and if they wanted someone to coach down on first, I would go. In 1944 I had the opportunity to get out on time for spring training and in 1943 I didn’t. The season had been going for about three or four weeks. In 1944 I had a chance to go out to spring training where we all trained together and I found out that I was again going to be assigned to Rockford. 15:44 A few weeks into the season, Mr. Wrigley, although I never met him, but I heard of the various rules and regulations he made. We belonged to 5 �them, so if anything happened we were asked to go to another team and see, we were playing a hundred and twenty-five games, so we carried four pitchers and when I was at Rockford, all of a sudden I got word that I was being sent over to Kenosha because two of their pitchers were hurt, but little did I know that I was going to go Kenosha and play for Marty McManus, who had managed the Boston Red Sox and they played behind me and that’s why I say, “you don’t do it by yourself”, and I won twenty-one games in 1944, but I never had a good season after that. 16:31 Interviewer: “We’re jumping ahead here, so lets go back a little bit. Now, in the early days, in 1943, there was more than just playing baseball, did you go through the etiquette?” Oh, we went—when Helena Rubenstein came in and we learned how to walk properly and how to keep our hair nice. Many things weren’t popular then, but when I saw the uniform—see I had just started to teach school, and the uniform was so much like the uniform I wore when I was teaching. Four inches above the knee and just like in the movie, it was the peach color and to think that I had the opportunity when I was at Cooperstown to have Mr. Salls interview me, with some people down in New York, and to hear him say, “Mr. Wrigley gave me a hundred thousand dollars to go around the country to bring into his league girls that were ladies. I think that’s why we heard that we were going to look like ladies, dress like ladies and act like ladies. 17:42 It made a great hit with me because that’s the type of uniform that I was wearing. Now, they were four inches above the knee, but as the years went on I noticed that they got a little shorter, but it just reminded me how I had just started teaching and that I was going to be able to combine this activity, that I had never had a chance to do because see—I came through Sargent College when I then began to play lacrosse and I played against the British when they would come over here and to think that’s become such a popular sport today, but it’s just that I’ve been a part of being able to see the programs for the girls expand, but I’m still looking for our girls to get the leadership roles, which I think they so deserve. 18:33 Interviewer: “I want to go into some of the details of how you were actually recruited. Remember this is for the archives and we’re trying to get the exact details. How were you actually recruited and then was there a contract that you signed? How did you get your uniforms? Did they fit you? Walk us through that process before you actually went out to play?” As I said, we had played in the garden and Dottie Green, who was a catcher, a tall girl, Dottie apparently had already gone out there and she said something that’s when I got the call in school from Ralph Wheeler, but I had to wait until school finished because they had started in May and I don’t know when I signed the contract. I must have signed it before I left, but I’ve got it today with the sixty dollars right on it and I keep it along with the rest of my memorabilia. 19:32 As soon as school got out they assigned me to a sleeper and I went out on a night sleeper and I got out to the Merchandise Mart and Mr. Salls, who was Mr. Wrigley’s right hand man--I never met Mr. Wrigley, he was the one that met me and got me on another form of transportation and got me out to Rockford. 19:55 I know then that I must have signed the contract then because they made 6 �arrangements, they gave me my uniform. We had chaperones and she would take care of our uniforms and she would give us our paycheck each week and then when we were on the road we lived in nice hotels and they gave us two dollars and eighty-five cents, but we would go to McDonald’s, which was then Alexander’s and I could get my cheeseburger and my French fries and a coke for twenty-five cents. I could send my money home to save, so in 1947 I drove my first brand new car out in 1947 to Rockford. 20:39 They treated us just so well—the movie, some people were upset because they thought the movie was going to maybe portray things not exactly the way it was, but they spoke to Penny Marshall and she assured them. She said, “I’m not doing a documentary, I’m doing a story about something that happened sixty years ago, so I’ll take a few liberties”, which she did, but I could tell it never spoiled it because that movie continues to be shown over and over again. And to think that I was just a small part of it and because of the way they ran that league I say it and I really mean it, “there’s nothing today in 2009 that yet will equate to what Mr. Wrigley did when he got together with Branch Rickey and decided that maybe it was the time to do something”. 21:37 The boys were going off in the service and so when I went to Rockford of course, Camp Grant was right near there and they use to come over and tell us that we were making better money than they were making. As I look back, just a—I was just in the right place at the right time and to think as I go and talk to the kiddo’s about my experience and let them know it’s the friends that I made all over the country and that’s what sports is all about. 22:03 Baseball’s America, so they took to that game that we were playing. Interviewer: “Did you actually have to go through a charm school? Tell us about that, what was that like?” Yes, we went to charm school because we all trained together for the two or three weeks that we were there and every night we would have inter squad games and one night Helena Rubenstein’s ladies came in. Sometimes I smile because I think they kind of portrayed it almost the same way in the movie, but it was just a case to think that Mr. Wrigley had it in his mind that we were going to dress like ladies and look like ladies and of course that’s the thing that I—people always had the impression that if you loved sports you were masculine and that use to break my heart because I was always so fussy about making all my lady like things. The league was great and I’ve heard some California girls and some of the Canadians sometime complain that they always played in shorts, they never played in a skirt, but see, it fit into the philosophy that he had and the only thing that was difficult with the lefty’s, we had to pin our skirt over so as you went by you wouldn’t be hitting your skirt. 23:23 I will remember us walking with the books on our heads and them talking about the mascara and they played it up in the movie and I can tell people that it was true. They had the best intentions and yet the Midwest and the California girls and the Canadians, they had competed. Not us in the east, but I still think that the part that we see where one of the players thought that she wouldn’t play if she was going to have to wear that uniform and in the movie he says, “well, you’ll either play with that or you won’t play at all”. I thought it was so great that when I came home and I had girls ask me if I would coach, this was outside of school, and I asked them, “would you wear the same uniform, the type that we wore?” I said, “I don’t care if you don’t slide”, because we would get strawberries because we just had little tights, but they went 7 �along with me, and my mother and I went down and we made those uniforms. In a world tournament some of the girls from Japan happened to say to us when they saw us walking out on the field, “what, you going to a dance?” 24:31 I thought, and I still feel that way, girls must portray the image that we are young ladies and now as I see it advancing and we see how skilled the girls are, six-two, six-four, when I go over to Harvard and I see them playing BC, those girls can run like deer. Interviewer: “Now, you mentioned that in your second time around you actually did get a chance to go to spring training, but you missed out the first time. Once again we’re trying to get this for the record because none of us were there, so tell us about what happened during spring training? Give us a visual, what did you see?” It portrayed a little bit like they portrayed in the movie, but we didn’t train there, we trained in LaSalle and Peru in Indiana and what all would have been like the eight teams, we all trained there like they depicted in the movie. 25:34 You really went through spring training with the idea you didn’t know just exactly who you were going to get assigned to and during the day there were all the skill drills and at night they would have inter-squad games and after the inter-squad games, that’s when we would go in and they came in from Chicago and showed us how to cross our legs and not to pile our dishes up when we went out because—that’s one thing that I will remember, that we were looked upon so highly by the fraternal organizations and there were a few girls that were a little younger and they might have possibly with the Rotary Club and the Elks, want to get there and pile their dishes, but I just thought it was so great to think that they thought of all those extra things for us to do. 26:20 To be sure that we were in and night and gave us an hour or so after the games and the chaperones were there to see that we did the right things and I was never anyone who was too sociably inclined, so I wanted to carve my scrapbooks and wanted to collect my articles, so when the games were over I would go back up into my room, and we were on the road and I made those books that are all part of my memorabilia today. 26:48 Interviewer: “Tell us about your chaperone, when you were with the Peaches.” Oh yes, one of my chaperones was Marie Timm, a schoolteacher from Milwaukee, West Allis, and she dressed just like we did. She wore the same uniform, but the next year they went more like an airline hostess and they had the white coats with the red jackets and after I went over to Kenosha I left Marie Timm, but I went and I had a new chaperone who had met Marty McManus and that’s how she got the job with Marty. It was then, when we were at Kenosha, that that opportunity came for us to go to Wrigley Field to play for the service and four of the teams went into Wrigley Field and we were the first people who played under the lights because they put all the portable lights up and every time I recount all the experience I had, I think wasn’t it unique to have a thing run so top notch and the fellows that would be at Camp Grant and it would be at the naval station when we would be going down past the U.S. naval station going down to South Bend. 28:04 To think that they kept everything so kind of high class and I think that’s the reason why, coupled with the fact that Penny Marshal is so skilled, she had been able 8 �to make that movie and it is shown time and time again and I was just a small little part of it. 28:23 Interviewer: “After the spring training you went through and all the teams were in one place, did you already know what team you were playing on?” No, after the end of spring training they announced where we were going. A little bit like they depicted it in the movie, but there was no question as to what uniforms we were going to wear. I never heard anybody say anything and I’ve got the pictures where we all assigned and the big buses all came and off we went to our towns. We trained in LaSalle/Peru, twin cities in Illinois. 29:04 Interviewer: “What was the typical season like? How many games did you play? Were they daytime?” A hundred and twenty-five games and I shouldn’t do it, but sometimes I look today and see how the boys are treated well. They can’t pitch nine innings and to think that we had our strawberries and we were playing every night, so we must have got a few aches and pains, but I think everybody will tell you that we were having so much fun and it was such a unique thing even though the California girls and the Canadians all came in with experience. 29:38 Interviewer: “Now, in the very early days what were the fans like?” Great, Olive Little from Canada loved olives and they would bring her big bottles. They were very good to us and of course the fraternal organizations always had us in for the noon luncheons they were having. Even at the end when we had our first reunion in Chicago in 1982 I think it was 1982, we had some fans even coming then, who remembered what we had done and now as we’ve grown into an organization and we’re now in Milwaukee—the last time we were in Milwaukee they must have gotten Johnson’s Wax to put up some money. They took us on side trips to Racine and to Kenosha and to think that so many of the Racine people came in to see their players. 30:33 Racine had been fortunate enough to be able to maintain their players, so when the league got up to the time where some of the teams were dropping out, Racine still had about eight of their originals, but it was a little—kind of shady because, but they had that loyalty with the Racine fans and to think that years later the fans came back and remembered us. We started with reunions every two years, now they’re every year and to think when they start to make—they were trying to see if perhaps Cooperstown would look favorably upon us, not to be inducted, but to be—and to think that when Ted Spencer saw the names of all the girls that had played here was this gym teacher that he had had in grammar school and Ted has just recently retired, so every time I go up to Cooperstown I think how Ted would say and some of the others, “you’re the one that flunked him because he didn’t have his white sneakers”. 31:40 To think that we did get recognized in 1988, didn’t get inducted and I think some women took it—I think they thought we should have, but no it’s a mans organization and by doing things in a nice positive way, which we did, and to think we now have a statue on the side lawn and the 9 �little display we had has been expanded to include the “Silver Bullets” that came along after we had finished and Boston College and all those way back when, were playing a little competitive softball. 32:17 Interviewer: “You were talking about the season then with the Peaches, but then you moved on to Kenosha. Why or how did that happen?” The Kenosha Comets, and that’s because we carried four pitchers and Helen Nichol, Fox McKanda, one of the most outstanding, and Elise Harney, a girl from Illinois, they had come up with some sore arms or something and so, we carried four pitchers and that’s when I was told to go over there. In due time Harney and Nicky they were fine and we carried on with four pitchers and one of the girls who is with me today at our second reunion in Milwaukee, Rose Foldra. Rose, who had won a scholarship--they were offering scholarships and Rose had won a scholarship, but somehow as things happen, she met the right person, she got in his truck with him and out she went and to this day, out to Carnation, Washington. 33:16 She only played the one year, but when the movie came out she wrote me a letter and wondered if by any chance I remembered her because we roomed together in Kenosha. To think the years have gone on and Rose today has come to our reunion today in Milwaukee. Interviewer: “Now, you said you roomed together, as a group then you would travel by bus? How did you get from town to town?” We went on the buses after our second year. The first two years we had our bags and if you recall the four teams were all in a ninety mile radius of Chicago, so as I tell people that when we were going through the streets of Chicago to catch the rapid transit to go to South Bend we would all be singing, “Oh we hail from Illinois it’s just across the line, we’re not too young, we’re not too old, in fact we’re in our prime, Oh we hit the ball with might, in fielding we are fast, we are the Rockford ball club and we always dress in class, so we never kick the gong and we’re always on our toes, not only in the ball park , but when we’re with our bows. Oh. We’re in bed by ten o’clock that is a dirty lie, we are the Rockford ball club a model do or die”, and we’d be clapping and I always remember the words. 34:35 It reminded me so much of my training when I was going to B.U. because I had to go four months to camp to get a lot of the outside things and it’s a wonderful life and as I look back, it’s the memories that I have and I can still remain active enough to be able to follow through on so many places that invite me to come and speak. 35:00 I stood in front of children , but I never stood in front of adults and to think of the wonderful experience I’ve had and to be able to go to all these four hundred places and be a part of Fan Fest. Interviewer: “Let’s get again to the actual routines of a typical season let’s say, with Kenosha. Before you traveled by bus?” We were going by Inter-Urban and then we went by bus, so then we would drive on the bus all night and then go into the town because most towns we went into, you stayed there for three or four games. They didn’t like us going up to Lake Geneva and that to 10 �swim because they thought we should take care of ourselves. Many a time we had workouts in the morning, especially when we were home, but it was conducted in such an outstanding way and the fact that we were invited to the elks and Kiwanis, I just thought it was— Interviewer: “I want to get into the actual—so somebody that didn’t know anything about your experience—you’re traveling by bus all night, you arrive in the city, what happens?” 36:11 At five o’clock we would report—we would have been assigned to our hotel rooms, because they all knew the rooms we were going to be in, and then we would head out at five o’clock to have a batting practice and do infield and then we would play sometimes double headers, but we most often played single games, but on Sundays we would play a double header and especially in Racine. They would play in the afternoon because they had an overhead structure like the little bit that was portrayed in the movie, but otherwise we tried to play mostly the games at seven o’clock, so you wouldn’t be in the heat of the sun. they divided the season in half and the winner of the first half played the winner of the second and when I was in Kenosha we did happen to make the playoffs, but in the first round they played a round robin and we lost out, but that’s alright because I could call back to the school department to say that I’d be back on time because we were out. 37:13 We then started the reunions. A girl that had been a bat girl, and it had always been her desire because I read things that someday she would be able to play, and it ended up that she was the one to organize our first reunion in Chicago, which we began to have every two years, but as girls passes on we have them just one year, but to think that I would go to my first one in Chicago and there I would see Audrey Wagner, now a Gynecologist and an Obstetrician. She had taken the money—she was from Bensenville in Illinois and when we would go to South Bend you could just turn your head once and you’d be through the little town, but she went on to medical school and when I saw her at our first reunion she said, “yes, if I ever come to Boston Pratty, I’ll come and see you because I fly my own airplane”, and that season, if she and her nurse didn’t get caught in a wind pocket and got killed. Audrey Wagner, one of the most outstanding ball players. 38:19 Interviewer: “What would you say are some of the highlights of your time with the original team, with Rockford?” The highlights? I think the highlight would be what I did in 1944. I did win twenty-one games and I did pitch a no hitter, but I still have to emphasize that you don’t do it by yourself, your team played behind you. I’ve always felt that way and I think that’s why when I went to Kenosha they readily accepted me, so it’s something, I can’t say it was in my bringing up, but my love of sports let me realize, even when I went to teach, I can teach a person to think, I’m not going to go out there and make the plays for you and I think it’s that I was always just so wrapped up in how you do things and if you do things the right way and if you think ahead of time and that’s what I try to get across when I go to the schools. 39:18 It’s more than just winning games and having a good record. It’s just the friendships that you’ve gained and the people that you’ve taught and now that 11 �I’m in my nineties I find that people that I had in school remember me. It’s very rewarding although I wish I would have met the right fella and married, but I ended up an old maid school teacher for forty eight years, but I taught at every level and then the last twenty we were doing a lot as what is being done today to realize children, if their not doing well academically there’s something wrong and we can’t be that authoritative teacher that just says their going to---to find out that I worked physical education, motor development, start to get that body going and it’s funny how that—you don’t become Phi Beta Kappa, but you’re not flunking everything. 40:14 I think that’s what helped me so much and I thought that last twenty years was great and today running into children who are coming from disoriented families and to think, through the avenue of physical education and where I don’t like to say it, sometimes the men are still just throwing out the ball and I don’t think that’s what physical education is. Interviewer: “I found something very interesting while I was doing some research on your particular story and that is, all through this interview you talked about how much you loved school and loved teaching, you loved school, but in 1946 your school wouldn’t release you for spring training. What happened?” 40:59 I quit and I know my mother wouldn’t care, but I remember going to my principal and he said to me, “Mary you wouldn’t drop your job”, so I said, “no, don’t you look up to Bobby Doerr and Ted Williams?” I so admired the men—just the fact that they could compete and so, I did, I asked for the time off and I believe it was 1945 and it ended up that we didn’t get into the playoffs that year and I think the superintendent called my mother and offered her the opportunity to ask me if I would want to come back. I can remember my mother saying, “I know she would never come back unless you knew that she was doing the right work”, so it was, I did go back, but in 1946 and 1947 I never gave any thought of dropping my job then because I was twenty-two or twenty-three and I thought they had deprived themselves of a lot of things to send me to college because then it was four hundred and thirty-two dollars. 42:07 A hundred and forty four three times a year and to think today forty one or forty two thousand, so they had a hard time, but they stuck with me. My mother—they never went on to college, my father became a Certified Public Accountant and all that, but it just—everything just worked out well, so I’ve stayed very involved because of the all American. I just feel that’s part of what I should do and I served two years, I’ve served two years on the board and because I got Ken Burns, he decided he was going to do a documentary and these are the things that amaze me. I’m just a little person from the east coast and the Californians and the Canadians, they seemed to have more opportunities and it just show you that if you’re doing the right thing how it ended up that Ken Burns asked us if we would take part and the other day I turned on channel sixteen at home and all of a sudden I looked and I saw this black and white film and it was Jackie Robinson. 43:16 Ken had decided he was going to do his thing by innings and the era of Jackie Robinson and the All American he was putting in the sixth inning and all of a sudden I looked because I had taped it myself every Sunday and I bought the book, but I had never seen this and here is Dotty Green and myself didn’t come out in color. I couldn’t believe it, I mean I looked so nice and we were answering the questions and I thought, “I never would have thought all of this would come, and someone will see me and “Mary I saw you on channel two”. To think 12 �he has always been doing all these different historic ones, but to think that we got included in it and then to get on with Robin Roberts, it’s really been a wonderful life. 44:07 Interviewer: “I’m really curious and there’s something here we haven’t gotten to yet. We haven’t gotten to something that I’m very curious about and that is that with your love of school and you’re playing baseball, but there was a moment in 1946 when you had to make a decision. You had to make a choice and you even went, in a sense, against the better wishes of your parents. Why? Why did you play baseball instead of just saying, “well, I guess?” 44:35 Yeah, and well, I think my father saw in me what he didn’t see in my brother. We were only thirteen months apart and my mother was fourteen when she left Kingston, Jamaica to come to the states and to eventually meet my dad and then when they married to have two children thirteen months apart. Whether she knew that I was doing the right thing— you know, playing with the boys, she never said no, but as I look back, in her quiet way and having come from a little bit of wealth down there in Kingston, Jamaica, her brother was the Gores that did all the Gores cigars and all that, but she came on here after she go tout of high school, Convent of Mercy she went to, so I think she was really overly protective of me, she always mad my clothes and all that, but it’s amazing where, unless she ever play Cricket, she was not adapted to sports, but she loved the Red Sox and at the end she would go with me and go to all the games. 45:38 I always thought basketball was my best sport, but I just took part in everything, but we never realize what our parents have done until years later because see I taught at the end when I now just recently was told there’s a hundred and fifty homeless children in Quincy and I can’t believe it. My mother was there all the time for us. 46:00 Interviewer: “Once again I want to get back to this idea of the decision you made to play baseball and actually quit school.” Because I just thought it was so—I guess in my own way I thought that I might learn something the might help me in coaching, but it seemed as though it was an opportunity I would never have thought of and if I hadn’t played at the garden and Dottie Green, who had already gotten out there and Maddy English, who’s now gone, she was from Evert and she stayed at the all American longer than I did and she eventually came back and finished up at B.U., but I have wondered that, it’s a good question when you ask it because except to play catch with my father, you know, the boys would just ask— somehow I think whether it’s because my mother, I still, I hope, acted like a lady and not a roughian and that’s what keeps me going. When I talk to the kiddo’s to let them realize what sports is all about. That it’s learning to get along with people and someone has to win and someone has to lose. 47:16 I can get all these different stories and as long as they know I take my ball cards and give them some ball cards and I’ve been to over six hundred places and just recently a girl went to take an advanced degree at Syracuse and she told me—she came to visit and saw some of my pictures and to think there is enough interest that the other day she sent me her disc “Rosy at the Bat”, so I think we touch lives in so many ways that we never think of and yet sometimes I get the feeling that there are maybe some people my age where I am now living in a senior project, but not in 13 �assisted living. I gave my four-bedroom house to my nephew. 48:02 There are still some people who would say, “that’s not something that a girl does”, and that’s why I stay with it, to think that if we can get the girls coaching because the men tend to do a little roughhouse because we are young ladies and to think that—I never met him, but that’s what Mr. Wrigley was pushing for and that’s what was my background at Sargent. Interviewer: “Now, you went on to play with Rockford again, right? 1946 to 1947?” That’s why I think that they must have noticed—not to say that I had anything, but they were then overhand pitching and it’s like little league. Those girls, when we couldn’t get softball pitchers in 1943, 1944 and 1945 they started sidearm well, eventually it became overhand and just like the boys at about forty feet and they throw in fast, but somehow those girls that could throw hard and I don’t know why it was, it was only for the summer, Rockford asked me to come back. 49:08 I don’t know, but there must have been something in my attitude, or whatnot, that they thought that I was going to be an addition to the club and I wasn’t going to get upset because some other people pitching were maybe better than I, so I coached a lot, the coaches would coach on third, on first, but I really—when I look back I think it was either something that came out of me through my home that I was taught the right things and without them battering me, that I did it and I think it came through. 49:47 When I was going to do my undergraduate work, I never forgot that I was supposed to be a young lady and act like a lady. Interviewer: “You also went to the U of M, the University of Michigan, the U of M?” No, the University of Michigan is what two of the girls—University of Michigan was one of the girls when I went to Salem State. Interviewer: “But didn’t you go to the U of M?” 50:12 No, I went—no, the University of Michigan, I’ve been out--Interviewer: “Where did you get your degree after that though?” I stayed at B.U. and then I took the B.U. Harvard extension courses and I got fifty-two B on my masters, but I was taking courses at U. Mass Boston and then I go into B.U. because Sargent had now come on to the B.U. Campus. Interviewer: “That was Mass, I’m sorry, I got the wrong M.” I got my fifty-two year—I got my associate degree, but I didn’t go beyond to get my doctorate because you had to be an administrator and that’s one thing I have regretted, I never did get out of the trenches, but I have no regrets now. 51:02 I don’t think you do anything better than working with children. Interviewer: “1995 Boston Garden Hall of Fame. Tell us about that.” Oh yeah, they not only were going to change the garden, they were doing some different things, so they started to do a Hall of Fame and they had it—I don’t know where they had it around, but the next thing I knew, I had been inducted into it, so I went in with Derek 14 �Sanderson I think, and I went in with one of the gentlemen who did maybe some of the menial work around the garden and it was great because they had me come in and we went up to those sky view seats where the company’s now all pay for the whole place, and to think that I went down on the garden floor with Sanderson, and I forget who else got honored and they got—I have a nice plaque and then as a follow up they started on the very top floor opening up some of the exhibits of girls in basketball and whatnot and as a result, school children started to come in and I volunteered to go in and take them around on the—and see all the views of the upstairs of the—particularly hockey, but then they took a tape of the closing of the Boston Garden and to think that I was there when Woody Dumont and Bobby Bauer and Milt Schmidt were going off to fight for Canada and that I was up there when I saw them go and I was there when Cunningham went his two minute mile. 52:51 I just was so wrapped up in everything and I think a lot was my father, he took me to a lot of those things, so it’s been a wonderful life. Interviewer: “Do you want some water?” No, I’m fine. Interviewer: “Let’s wrap it up with—looking back you made several comments about how this has had an effect on you, but personally, you personally, not in terms of the whole league, how has playing in this league affected you personally?” 53:23 When you are talking this league you’re referring to the all American? Interviewer: “Yes” It has affected me to the point that I have—you know maybe I have accepted the way they doing everything, but when I look back and I think that every bit of their interest was to do the thing right by us. To have chaperones who would be there because see, in the movie you see Tom Hanks in the locker room and I have to tell people sometimes remember—Penny Marshall told us, she said, “I’m not doing a documentary, I’m doing a story about something that happened years ago, so I’ll take a few liberties”, so when I go I can tell people that Tom played a great part and I said we were told that he did it for that reason because he was playing Jimmy Fox and the drinking took both of them, but to think that I was part of that and combined with my background that I had at home and the background of the wonderful teachers that I had when I look back at it now. 54:31 To think of the background that I’ve got and to think that the highlight would be baseball and that baseball is America and now I get asked—I’m going back to Bosox on Friday when I go because two women’s groups that have been playing baseball are being honored and I’m to go and sit at the table with them. 54:55 I just feel like I have something to offer and they can see that I’ve taken care of myself and I I’ve made it to ninety and I’m on my way to ninety one and to think that I can still go and talk in such a way that people think I’m sincere. I answer the things that I get because I’m still getting—I do this Out and About Project and they send me the blank of where they have been and I send them back another blank, so I know that—besides some people who never send them, we are Out and About and that’s how we’re preserving the legacy of the all American. Interviewer: “Thank you so much.” 15 �Hope you got enough, so you can piece it together right because you ask nice questions. Interviewer: “Thank you.” 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MPratt Title A name given to the resource Pratt, Mary (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pratt, Mary Description An account of the resource Mary Pratt was born in 1918 in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Throughout her early childhood and on through college she played baseball. Before joining the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, Pratt played hockey for two seasons with the Boston Olympets from 1939 to 1940. She got her start professionally in baseball with the Rockford Peaches in 1943. In 1944, she played for the Rockford Peaches and the Kenosha Comets and then in 1945 played just for the Kenosha Comets. From 1946 to 1947 she played for the Rockford Peaches. Throughout her professional career she played as a pitcher and saw how the rules in softball changed how the game was played. The highlights in her professional career were from her 1944 season when she won 21 games and pitched a no-hitter. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b7a66745ea215e0bc2736060a6b0bdd4.m4v 383bb850d6fc9dd58b65ac321c047f4c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04972d69a48528b42796da7289189efe.pdf 371474edf275f985a93aaeefc2b19f2e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Marilyn Jenkins Interviewed by: Frank Boring Transcribed by: Joan Raymer August 15, 2008 Interviewer: “ Marilyn, if we could begin with your name and where and when were you born?” (02:46:25) I’m Marilyn Jenkins and I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on September 18, 1934. (02:46:29) Interviewer: ”What was your early childhood like?” (02:46:38) Well, I had one sister who married when I was four years old and so I was like an only child within a sense. Probably that was good because times were touch then coming out of the Depression and anyway, I grew up on the near south side of Grand Rapids near the corner of Cass and Hall Street, which was about a long block and a railroad track from South Field where the “Chicks” played. I had a good childhood. During the war dad would pile the neighborhood kids in the car and take them to the lake swimming etc. I have a lot of fond memories of my childhood. Growing up in the neighborhood, it was a neighborhood then and you knew everybody. There was a lot of porch activity at night and it was a good time. (00:02:46:48) Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?” (02:47:42) MY father sold meat for Swift and Company and then again coming out of the depression, at night he would cut the meat for Jim Nader at Nader’ss grocery store on Hall Street, which was right around the corner. I kind of fed into that too because I would go and visit him there and he would bring me candy bars. (02:47:43) Interviewer: “How about your mother?” (02:48:05) She was pretty much a housewife except I remember for a short period of time during WWII she was a “Rosie the Riveter” at a local place here in Grand Rapids. I don’t remember what it was called at that time, but I remember her in the bib overalls and the hat. (00:02:48:06) Interviewer: “Just like the picture.” (02:48:23) Just like the picture, right. She didn’t like it, but she did it for a while. (02:48:24) Interviewer: “When was your first exposure to baseball, or sports of any kind?” (02:48:35) 1 �Well, dad was a real sports fan and frequently on Sunday afternoons he would take me to Valley Field to watch the black leagues play over there and I met some of those fellows that played there. In fact I met one just the other day. Anyway, I liked baseball—he taught me to like baseball—he played catch with me and all that. He wanted a boy, but he got a girl and consequently he was doing something in his short life that he lived after I was born. (02:48:38) Interviewer: “This period of time in America was very difficult economically. How did your family fare?” (02:49:11) Well, dad worked two jobs and mother went to work there for a period of time. We were coming out of the Depression and I don’t know that I was anticipated product there. I don’t know that they wanted another child, but dad would—I think we fared—we always had enough to eat. Dad would exchange coupons for meat, gas and all that. For gas he would exchange with neighbors. They would switch back and forth because he had all the meat, because he was in meat. We got along all right, we weren’t wealthy by any means, but we made it. (02:49:15) Interviewer: “You mentioned the black leagues, but were there other baseball related activities going on around you?” 02:50:00) I don’t recall any. (02:50:04) Interviewer: “So the exposure was through your father and seeing these other players?”(02:50:07) I was always interested. I remember I use to—all sports—scour the Sunday papers for pictures. I’m a U of M fan and I would study those and baseball—different seasons and different sports and I really got into it big time. 02:50:11) Interviewer: “Did you have a radio?” (02:50:30) Yes, we had a radio. (02:50:31) Interviewer: “So, did you hear broadcasts?” (02:50:33) Broadcasts of sports. I would sit and cross my legs in front of the radio and watch— listen to them. (02:50:35) Interviewer: “You said watch, this is before TV.” (02:50:40) This was watch—we had one of the upright radios. (02:50:45) 2 �Interviewer: “I understand from an earlier conversation that tragedy struck your family when you were still quite young and in your teens. What actually happened?” (02:50:50) Dad—when I was thirteen, I think the summer when I was thirteen, he was diagnosed with Leukemia and that fall he passed away and of course that changed the whole dynamics of the family. Now there was just mother and I because my sister had married a Navy man and they were stationed in Long Beach. Anyway, there was mother and I and it changed significantly. I remembered we struggled. I think she got a small pension because he had been in WWI, dad had, and he had been injured in WWI, nothing that affected his walking or his thinking or anything, but I think it was frozen feet and a few other things. Anyway, it changed our lives and what it did to me was—I was thirteen and I was going to South High School. I had to cut right through the alley to get to the high school and I got a job. I don’t know if I was thirteen or fourteen, but I got a job up on Division at a sundry store, a Quick Mart today, and I worked there, not during the summer because that was the “Chicks”, but I worked there after school and I think I was making 50 or 40 cents an hour maybe, but it helped. Mother was—one thing I remember is that we had a car, we had a 1939 Chevrolet and if my memory is correct, in 1947 when my dad died, cars were in great demand. It was in the garage, mother didn’t drive, which was not unusual for women at that time and I wasn’t driving yet, and she had them lined up at her door to buy that car. I remember she got a thousand dollars out of it and it was eight years old. Anyway, that helped. A thousand dollars went a long way then. Anyway, I got a job and I worked right through graduation from high school. (02:01:00) Interviewer: “What did you—I realize you were very young at that time and young people don’t always know what they want to do with their lives, but what were you thinking about? What were you going to do?” (02:53:17) What was I going to do? Right. Well, one thing I had to do was I had to play baseball. Anything more secure or substantial than that wasn’t on my money. I knew there was no money to go to college, there weren’t scholarships and all that business and in what? I wasn’t qualified. I was a good student in high school, but anyway, I had to play ball. When the ball league ended in 1954 I went to x-ray school. I became a radiology technologist at Butterworth Hospital and I worked at that until 1972 I think, but in that interim period of time, I also went to Community College, I went nights. (02:53:28) Interviewer: “Lets get back to that a little later. You’re in high school and at what point did you discover that there was a baseball league? That there was a women’s league?” (02:54:39) I have to go way back. In 1945, dad was still alive, and he saw in the Sunday paper that there was going to be a women’s baseball league coming to Grand Rapids and it was going to be at South Field, which was just a short distance from my house. Summers were kind of—I remember playing softball at Jefferson School grounds, but he told me that I should go over to the field and see if I could get a job, doing what I didn’t know at eleven years old. (02:54:41) 3 �Interviewer: “Let me go back. You said you were playing softball?” Yes, I played on the school grounds there. Interviewer: “But there was no team?” No, just the neighborhood boys, and we set up teams and played there a lot. (02:55:56) Interviewer: “Were you the only girl?” I was the only girl. Interviewer: “So, you already felt that you liked the game? Yes, I liked the game. Interviewer: “What position were you playing when you played with the boys?” Any position. It was just a lot of neighborhood kids and we had a good time. Interviewer: “So there was no official high school girls baseball team?” No, in high school at South, our gym activities included square dancing, kickball, badminton, volleyball, but nothing organized. There may have been archery that was organized, but nothing that interested me. 2:56 Interviewer: “So now your father sees that there is a team in Grand Rapids and he suggests to you to go and check this out. Tell us about the day you went there.” Well, I don’t remember the specific day I went there, but I was pretty timid and I met the groundskeeper there, I didn’t know anybody, it wasn’t a case of who you know, I didn’t know anyone, but I just went over there and I met the grounds keeper and his name was “Chick Batts”. Has anybody else mentioned that name to you? He was probably a fifty year old man at that time and he had a little helper by the name of Pete something, I don’t remember, but the interesting thing about “Chick” was that he only had one arm and I was amazed as I watched him throw a ball by switching the mitt between his underarm of the stub to his good arm. Anyway, I asked him if there was any work I could do and he said, “sure”. 2:57 Well, the first job I did was—this is right at the beginning of the league now, they had cut the grass out because South Field was a football field at that time. They cut the grass out and the diamond, the dirt was full of stones so I picked stones out of the diamond. I don’t know how long I did that. Another job I had was cleaning under the bleachers, which was kind of a fun job because you would find nickels and dimes out of people’s pockets. Anyway, in that period of time, it was just a short period of time, and somebody, I don’t recall who it was, asked me if I would be batgirl so, would I be batgirl, of course I would be batgirl. I was privileged to be in that 4 �position. I became batgirl and I was batgirl from the time I was eleven, which was 1945, until 19—through 1951. 2:58 Interviewer: “Back up just a minute. During the period of time that you were picking up the stones and all that, did you actually meet the players?” Absolutely. Interviewer: “Let’s talk about that.” Talk about being in awe, I got into the game—I don’t know who was batgirl in the beginning, but I became batgirl pretty quick. Anyway, I got into the games free, that was Dad’s purpose in sending me over there so, if I worked I could get into the games free. These women, I was just in awe and thunderstruck by them. A bunch of wonderful women, and I remember they were nice to me too, every one of them was. When I saw that Connie Wisnewski back in 1945, it’s too bad that Connie is still not alive because she would be a wonderful interview. She was the pitcher at the beginning there, and Gabby Ziegler and I don’t know, I could go on with lots of names, but I was just awestruck by them. 2:59 Interviewer: “So, I don’t expect you to remember exactly this moment, but when the first games were being played, what was your reaction to seeing these women playing baseball?” Just astounded. Dad would come over to a few games too. He had to make sure that I was in an all right sitting there because he was that kind of a dad. Anyway, it was just amazing, and then to see the people in the stands was another amazing think. Have you been by South Field here? Interviewer: “Yes.” Of course you can’t tell where it was right now. It had a short right field porch, but anyway—when I think back to the period of time when I was batgirl, the box seats that were right around where I was sitting, the prominent people in Grand Rapids were there and they were supporting this at that time. 3:00 The stands would be full and at one time they built more stand out in the left field because it used to be that you could hit the ball forever out there. The women playing ball—it was phenomenal. I think it progressed though, it progressed from a game of softball to a game of baseball, we know that. Interviewer: “Yes, because they were pitching underhand and side hand and eventually overhand.” In 1947 it went sidearm and then overhand, that’s when Beansie came in, she never would have made it if it hadn’t and she says that. 3:01 Interviewer: “She did say that, yes. Did you have any inkling at this point you’re the batgirl there, that you could eventually play baseball?” 5 �Absolutely, and I had a lot of opportunity too, that’s one thing that was given to me. Batting practice sometimes, as I got a little older, I’d throw batting practice and sometimes I would even catch at batting practice, that’s how I ended up being catcher, or I would roam in the outfield. Oh yeah, I had to—if I hadn’t, not that I was that good, but if I hadn’t had the opportunity in 1952, that’s when I graduated from high school, to play, that probably would have been the biggest disappointment of my life. 3:02 Interviewer: “This might be a stupid question, but what does a batgirl do?” Well, a batgirl goes out and gets the bat after the hitter hits, you see them in the major leagues today too, they have batboy on their back, and you got out and get the bat or they bring the umpire balls, or they also, to get into this a little bit more, you shine the shoes, you carry the bats and balls down to the field from the club house, and you run errands, and you’re in very close contact with the ball players and man did I admire them. Interviewer: “From that period, and I realize that we’re going back quite a distance and you were a very young girl at that time, what were some of the things that you saw that really amazed you? I understand that you’re in awe and you’re watching these women, but somebody hit a homerun or something happened.” 3:03 Well, it would hard for me to be specific, but when I saw the home runs, I saw the no hitters, which in softball was not uncommon, and the competition, that was—I think I really developed the competitive spirit then, although I think it’s calmed down as I’ve gotten older. It was phenomenal. I can tell you, but maybe I should wait until later, one of my biggest thrills playing. So you want to hear it now?” Interviewer: “Sure, while you’re in the mood.” At one point, I don’t remember if it was the last year or the year before—1953 or 1954, we converted to a regulation baseball. Now I loved that because my hands were small and I could throw it better and everything. I think my first time at bat, if I remember correctly, with a regulation baseball; I hit one out of the park. Oh man, what a thrill and I don’t remember if it was South Bend or Kalamazoo, it was one of those two cities. That was a thrill. Interviewer: “Going back again to being a batgirl. You were an only child basically, your father died while you were very young, you’re struggling with your mom to survive, but you go to this baseball team and you were batgirl. These were amazing women, did you get a sense of family or a feeling of family?” 3:04 Maybe a little bit, I never thought of it that way, but I was batgirl when dad died and I remember Dotty Hunter, our chaperone, was living in town then, and I remember she came to see me then and man, that meant a lot. They sent me cards etc., and yeah, they were sort of my family. I never thought of it that way. That was my purpose in life at that time other than looking after my mother at home. 3:05 6 �Interviewer: “When did it—did you develop an idea that you wanted to play on the team or did something just happen, how did that transition from batgirl to trying out?” Well, as I said, I had been terribly disappointed, but I was encouraged by many of them along the way too. I had a pretty good arm, not for pitching because I didn’t have good control, but it was something that I had to do. It was a huge part of my life after dad died and maybe even before. You brought up family and that could be it. Interviewer: “Did you consciously, as you’re watching, you have a job to do of course, you’ve the bats and all this and we can’t downplay this because it’s an important part of the game and you have to do these things, but were there moments when you thought—I’m going to do that?” I don’t know if I ever thought that, but I knew that I wanted to play. I had some thrills, Beansie probably told you about her favorite story about her game in Kalamazoo—well I was catching that game and I wanted to do it, in fact, if I had a choice when I graduated from high school of playing for the “Chicks” or going to college, I’d have taken the “Chicks”. Later on I probably would have taken going to college, but I did that anyway. 3:06 Interviewer: “So, what was the actual transition? When did this transition from batgirl to—did you have to tryout?” Yes, I had to go through that and there were others trying out too. It was in the spring of 1952 was when I was graduating from high school and there were other people there trying out. 3:07 Interviewer: “What were the tryouts like?” Well, they put you through the drills. Interviewer: “So you were at the same field you were at before?” South field—at this point the league had changed significantly and it was at South Field. There were local girls trying out. too. Interviewer: “About how many do you think?” About ten. Interviewer: “So, now you got the baseball field, the manager, was he the one that was setting everything up? 7 �Yes. Interviewer: “So what did you have to do to tryout?” They would hit fly balls, you would bat, you would take infield practice, they would talk to you and I think one of the things, as the league was losing its popularity there, which it did significantly we know that, they wanted a local girl, which makes sense to me. They figured I would bring in some people, but I don’t know if I did or not. Getting back there a little bit, I remember when it was in June of 1952 we were playing—I remember my first game well, but anyway, it was a matter of if I was going to play or graduate from high school. Well, I did the smart thing and I graduated. I went through the ceremony. It was a quandary. My first game I played was at Bigelow Field, I’m sure it was, anyway, I remember well the first batter up was Dotty Key of the Rockford Peaches. I was playing center field then and she hit a line drive right smack at me. 3:08 I think the thing was going up and man, am I glad I caught it. If I hadn’t, it would have gone to the fence and been history. That’s just a side there. I had to play, that was the key. I had to have the opportunity and I’m still thankful for it. 3:09 Interviewer: “Your first game and you caught the line drive, wow.” It came smack at me and if it had gone over my head, it would have gone forever at Bigelow Field. 3:10 Interviewer: “How do you feel about your first game?” Nervous, very nervous. Here I was—the gals were all nice to me, they had known me a long time, but here I was having the first opportunity to do what I wanted to do, full uniform, full everything and butterflies. Interviewer: “But, when you caught that ball?” That helped. That helped a lot. That was the big difference there. Interviewer: “ I played little league and so I do understand the camaraderie. I have never played professionally, but I know that when I pitched and I got right into that zone and the guy swung, it was a feeling of excitement and when you caught that ball?” It was a feeling. You hit that—like this rookie catcher for the Tigers the other night, his first hit is that triple that wins the game. He’ll never forget that, he’ll never forget that. If he never gets another hit, he’ll never forget. 3:11 Interviewer: “Tell me about the uniform.” Well, I think the uniform was in the 1940’s a significant part of the drawing of the crowds, the fans that came to the game. As I remember the 40’s, women didn’t wear 8 �shorts, not in public, I don’t know if they wore them, but they didn’t wear shorts in public. You come out with this—a lot of these gals were really attractive, too-- and you come out in this short uniform with these good looking legs and that uniform was it. There whole purpose of developing this league, or beginning this league, that uniform was a significant part of it, as I see it. 3:12 Interviewer: “I grew up in the 60’s when the mini skirt became very popular and this is pretty close to being a mini skirt and this is the 40’s and 50’s.” Right, I mean the legs are bare from up here to the top of your socks and you know it’s silly to talk about that today, isn’t it? It’s history I know, not that I wear shorts that much anymore, but what you see the girls in today. Interviewer: “Then it was significant, because it was something you didn’t see normally. Rosemary talked about how she was embarrassed to come out.” I sensed that because I had the experience before, you’re embarrassed. Interviewer: “What about as a practical, this is the part that always amazed me, because I’ve seen pictures and film footage of girls, I should say women, sliding into a base. Now, the men had these long protected pants. What was that like?” 3:13 You know, I think it was something that—it wasn’t pleasant and I had some pretty good “strawberries”, as we called them, but it was expected of us. That was—I think and I can say this with a reasonable amount of certainty too, that if you would have put these women in 1945, in a pant, forget it, it wouldn’t have worked. That’s the way I see it. I would have been easier on their legs—I think that was—I’ve heard Dotty Hunter talk about this. That was the magic. Phil Wrigley was really sharp and his advisors there, the way they put things together. The movie depicted that well too. 3:14 Interviewer: “We’ll talk about that a little later. So, you got through your first game. What was the reaction of your fellow teammates to the fact that you caught that ball?” I don’t know that they reacted because they expected me to do it. That’s what I was out there for. I wasn’t any hero. They’re pros and they were good ball players. I wish there was more footage, film footage, of some of those games. 3:14 Interviewer: “But, the cameras were there on occasion, right?” They were there on occasion, right. I remember seeing the only motion picture, so to speak, it was the Kalamazoo Klouters, I’m sure you’re aware of that aren’t you? Interviewer: “We have a whole list of all the teams, yes.” It’s one that Kalamazoo put out and that’s the one thing we’ve seen in the last few years here, but there wasn’t a lot. There were stills, but think back to what film was like then. 9 �My colored pictures that I took in the early fifties are kind of faded. 3:15 Interviewer: “ So, lets go through some of the games you played. You got through the first one, and I imagine your confidence level must have gotten better, so what were the other games like?” Well, I played that first game in center field, but I actually was a catcher, I had been made into a catcher, and one of the first games I caught, Marge Silvestri was pitching and I’m not exaggerating, this was overhand, she had a drop ball that dropped 8-12 inches and of course I didn’t have any experience calling a game so to speak, so she called the game from the mound and told me what she was going to throw, and we won. That was a big thrill too, catching, I came through it pretty good. I don’t have any trouble with my knees so to speak and the only thing I have is a crooked finger right here that was dislocated and never put back in, but I loved catching once I got into it. 3:16 Interviewer: “I never could understand it myself. I was a pitcher.” You’re part of the game. With every pitch you’re part of the game. Interviewer: “What were some of the games like? You quoted one already.” I have a problem pulling that out. They were competitive. I don’t think I specify any particular games. I can’t. Interviewer: “Well, who were the main rivals?” Oh, the main rivals, toward the end—Fort Wayne, Fort Wayne always had a good team, Rockford always had a good team, I think those were the main rivals as I remember. Interviewer: “The one game that Beans was talking about, you were catching. Let’s go into detail about that particular game.” Well, here’s the deal that happened. Mamie Redman was pretty much the regular catcher and I never—my statistics—I caught a lot of games, but Mamie would go back to college when the playoffs started, so I was thrown in as the catcher. She was much more experienced than I was and I tell her to this day—“Mamie, I could hit better and run faster”. 3:17 So, Mamie went back to college and I was thrown in to be the catcher and it was a championship game in the playoffs that year that Beansie pitched and it was in Kalamazoo and it was forty degrees. It was really cold, really cold. Anyway, and I don’t want to take away from her story, but she struck out that last batter and we won it. That was probably both of our biggest thrills. Interviewer. “What about the tension? That was the playoffs, what did you experience?” 10 �A lot of tension. The one thing that I always thought and I still think to this day, catcher’s gloves were hard to break in and we used the regular catcher’s glove—hard to break in and they were expensive. The first one I bought, which we had to buy ourselves, burned up in the fire at Bigelow and I had to buy another one. 3:18 Well, it wasn’t broken in and Beansie thought the ball popped out of my mitt too much. I had a crease in it and in fact, that glove is in the museum here in town now and you can still see that crease. When they had that exhibit I noticed it and I could never work that out. They weren’t as flexible as today’s. Anyway, that three-two pitch that she threw, there was a lot of tension. Beansie was kind of nonchalant on the mound, tall, both she and Connie Wisnewski probably were two of the taller ones in the league. Anyway, she was nonchalant and she fired it and it stuck in my glove. That ball is in Cooperstown today, right where it should be. 3:19 Interviewer: “What were the crowds like when you first started?” They were phenomenal. 10,000 people at South Field, I don’t know where they put them all, but going back, that’s wartime again. Tickets were cheap, people didn’t have cars, but it was on the near south side and a lot of people could walk to the games, including me. Anyway, it really, really was—I think it hit its real popularity in the late 40’s after the war, but then as cars became more available and television hit the scene, it had an affect on it. I think historians say that television and availability of the auto, really changed the success of the league. 3:20 Interviewer: “Just a quick question, how much was your salary working as a professional?” I think it was fifty-five dollars a week, which wasn’t bad. Interviewer: “That was a lot of money back then.” It was a lot of money back then, yes. Interviewer: “And that was helping to supplement your family, your mother?” Right. Keep me going. As you get a little older and in your teens, you need things. You think you do anyway. Interviewer: “What did you do with your money?” Well, I don’t think I had that much, I’m sure. While I was playing, my mother had remarried, so I had a stepfather, so my money I used for myself. Whatever I needed. I think I bought a car. A hundred dollar whopper. Interviewer: “While you were playing as a professional baseball player, did you get an opportunity for travel?” 3:21 11 �Yes we did, we traveled a lot on road trips. One thing I will say—even when I was batgirl, after my dad died Dotty Hunter was a remarkable woman, she was a Canadian, I’m sure you know more about her maybe than I do—anyway, she was out chaperone and I think in the summer of 1948, she took me on a road trip and I think it was to Racine, Wisconsin. Now I hadn’t, we didn’t travel back then, and the one thing I remember about it—I was there and somebody famous died. She took care of me—in 1948 I was fourteen. I had a room in a hotel, with a cardboard suitcase with stickers on it. It was a wonderful experience. 3:22 Interviewer: “Later on you’re playing professionally, do you travel also?” We traveled either by bus or the last couple years, I think we were in these cars and on the side of one of the cars it said, “Here come the Grand Rapids Chicks”. Interviewer: “So, during that period of time then, it was the first time you had been outside Grand Rapids?” Well, very far outside Grand Rapids. When my dad died in 1947, he was buried in Allendale, but no we didn’t do that—you didn’t have drive-in, you didn’t have McDonald’s, you didn’t have all that stuff. Interviewer: “Did you travel out of the country?” No, I never did. Interviewer: “I know they had the American and the Cuban leagues.” I think Beansie did. 3:23 Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about the crowds being huge, 10,000 people. Did you notice the drop off?” Absolutely, I noticed it to the point where, as 1952 was approaching, I was thinking as the crowds were dropping off, I might never have the opportunity to play because they might end the league and by 1954 we could really see that coming. One of the things I remember, was one of my last paychecks was handed out to me in one dollar bills. That tells you a lot. That even told me a lot as a kid because I was only nineteen when this was all over. 3:24 Interviewer: “I know that when we interviewed Rosemary, she was taken completely by surprise of course and she only played at the last.” Yes, she was only there the last three months or so and that was the last season. No, I wasn’t taken by surprise at all. There were rumblings about this—they tried different cities, but each city had its core fan base. There were fan clubs and all that and it didn’t surprise me, really at all. I could see it coming. 12 �Interviewer: “Well, if you did see it coming, were you thinking about alternatives?” 3:25 Probably, quietly—what I did during the years that I played—in the winter I would work at Wilson athletic goods—I think that was the only place I worked. It was a job you could get making golf clubs, putting grips on them—a dirty job, a dirty job, standing in a spot where the glue would drip and your shoes would be stuck to the floor, but when I think back on that, it was piecework and it was good money—good money. When it was over with I had to do something and I had been encouraged—I was a good student in high school and I had been encouraged to do something. Well, Beansie got into x-ray, I don’t know how she did, but she encouraged me and I got into it and actually worked at it—I started in 1955 with my training, that went through 1957 and then I became an RT, a Registered Technologist, and then after that I started going to night school and then I while I was going to night school, I worked for Dr. Stonehouse and Dawson, right over here in the Medical Arts building. I completed Community College and then I went back to Butterworth Hospital and I got into the teaching program there, of x-ray students. 3:26 I had a degree then etc. I probably shouldn’t say this, but I got very disillusioned in the 70’s and I might have been an activist too in the 70’s, but I just was dismayed with patient care. That was after Medicare had come in and the situation kind of changed, but we won’t go into that. Anyway, then I left that and I went to work for a person injury attorney in town. Bill Reamon, he has passed away, but he was one of the hot shots in town and I had a lot of respect for him. I worked for him from 1972 through 1977 and then that firm split and then I did a lot of work for other attorneys because I had learned to put together a settlement brochure that was quite popular with them at that time. 3:27 I worked for Bill up through 1988 part time, but also in 1981 I started doing estate sales in town. I was always interested in antiques so, I was doing estate sales and I am still doing them today. In fact I’m working on a big one right now. 3:28 Interviewer: “Looking back on the last year, 1954, you said that you heard the rumbling and you kind of figured that this was starting to happen and you started to think about what you are going to do next. How did it actually happen to you? How did you physically know? Was it a letter? How did you know that it was over with?” I think it was through the press. I don’t remember a letter or anything. 3:29 Maybe, but I don’t know. If there was one—in 1978 I donated all my stuff to the public museum here and it would be in there if there was. I don’t remember that. Interviewer. “What was your reaction?” Well, I expected it. You can’t deny what you expect can you? It wasn’t the end of the world for me. I was nineteen years old and I had to do something with my life anyway— the funs not going to go on forever, right? Maybe, if you get the right job. Anyway I just went on. Beansie was terribly disappointed and she expressed that to you, and I’m sure a 13 �lot of the others were too. It was like—it was a fact of life, but she stayed here and she has done well here in town. 3:29 Interviewer: “Looking back, how do you think the specific experience of baseball affected you and the person you are today?” Well, I think probably significant to that was and to how it affected me was that it made me competitive, but I think in a good way. It also taught me winning and losing and winning isn’t everything. The way you lose can mean a lot too. I said that before about winning and losing and competitive—having the opportunity to meet all these wonderful women, who at that time that the league ended, we had no idea that all this would be happening. It was over, it was over, but as out association got going and we got—I only saw the local people here after that, but when the association got going, we have had more fun at these reunions than you can believe. 3:30 I wish some of you could have been at the reunion in Fort Wayne in, I want to say, 1984. There was more enthusiasm there and more good times. There were other ones too, we had a wonderful one in Grand Rapids in 2001 which Dolly Wisniewski was the chair person of and she said we helped her, but I don’t know if we did that much, but basically it taught me a lot. It taught me how to travel, how to pack a suitcase, which I don’t know today, how to eat out, because we didn’t eat out, I didn’t anyway. My family didn’t and yours probably too. Anyway, it matured me in a lot of ways. 3:31 Interviewer: “ If you look back on that time when girls, women didn’t really have a whole lot of options. You could basically become of course a mother, a homemaker, you could become a nurse, perhaps a teacher, but there weren’t a whole lot of other things available. After the women’s professional baseball that seemed to change and there are baseball teams and there are girl’s sports and whatnot. How much do you think your experience and the experience of the baseball league had on girls doing things today?” 3:32 Well, I’m led to believe that it had a great effect. My personal experience or contacts haven’t shown me, other than what I have read or seen, but I guess it’s like Title IX or whatever, and all this and I have a good friend who taught in college and she is a good example of this. She had the opportunity to go to college right out of high school and she could either be a nurse, a teacher or homemaker. Well, she wanted to be an engineer, but women didn’t do that so, she became a teacher and had a successful career. She has enlightened me about a lot of the changes because she taught at the local college here. 3:33 I see changes—I’m watching this Olympic team and I’m watching even some sandlot stuff and there’s a lot of women out there that could be playing baseball and they have tried it, but it doesn’t catch on and I’ve said, I don’t think it ever will. It might in another hundred years or something and I want to stress something—there were good ball players, but there are today too, but the skirts, the uniform, the timing, it’s in a little pocket there of history where it fit in perfectly and I don’t know where your going to find another pocket like that. You could make some changes that would be significant, but this was wartime and wartime then was a lot different than wartime now--much different. 3:34 14 �Interviewer: “Penny Marshall decided to make the movie called “A League of Their Own”. How were you contacted about that? How did you find out about it?” I wasn’t personally, but June Peppis in Kalamazoo, she had started the players association and we were getting together someplace and having a great time once a year or twice a year. Anyway, she had these two writers come over one year, I don’t remember their names, but they developed the storyline, never dreaming it would lead into this, but it did. I don’t know how Penny Marshall got involved myself, but I do remember in Cooperstown in 1988 when they recognized us, that Penny Marshall was there. What a brilliant mind. 3:35 She’s brilliant and the way she put together that movie and all the little twists and innuendos and everything else—it’s phenomenal—even to “There’s no crying in baseball”, I don’t think anybody had said that before had they to your knowledge? Anyway, we didn’t even dream at that point yet before the movie, what it meant to other people as whole, as a unit there. Interviewer: “I know and I’ve been told this by other baseball player, the storyline itself was very much fictional account, but overall, did the film express, did it show the experience?” I think it showed the experience beautifully, but I think that the experience that it depicted was more at the beginning of the league. I’m not sure why I say the, I just feel that way. I think it did an exceptional job. Then to get gals that could play ball and all— it was wonderful. 3:36 It was wonderful and it’s going to be a movie that’s going to be around forever I’m sure. It’s going to be a good fill in forever, isn’t it? Interviewer: “I think so and it kind of becomes like the 1940’s classics—it has the flavor of that period and it doesn’t have all the stuff you see in so many movies today. It stands on it’s own. How did the movie affect the association, affect you and the association?” 3:37 The movie had a fantastic effect on the association, not just monetary, although there was some there, but it found players that were off in somewhere, although there had been great searches trying to locate people. It strengthened the association and almost gave the association a purpose. I sometimes struggle with that—what’s the association s purpose right now? Well, it’s to perpetuate the league, but I’m one of the youngest. Rosemary, I said, is younger than I, but I was one of the youngest that was around from the beginning. It isn’t going to be many more years—the associate members are beginning to take over control, which has to be, but they’ve been around long enough where they’re picking up the stories etc. It’s hard to put into a few words what the experience meant to each and every one of them. To Beansie it meant getting out of Okalahoma, to me, I’ve always been here. I went to South High School, played on the same South thing and the connection with Jerry Ford—I’m into Grand Rapids history. 3:38 Interviewer: “That’s why you get along so well with Gordon Olson. He has a love for this place.” 15 �Yes, he’s done a lot for us too. There are a lot of people who have stepped up and really made us feel like somebody again as we get into our older years. Interviewer: “I think one of the things that I found as a documentary film maker, I’ve done films about the Flying Tigers, film about the Red Arrow and during the experience itself you know you’re doing something and in your case your playing baseball and your enjoying it and all that, but you don’t think in terms of what it is going to mean fifty years from now.” 3:39 Absolutely not ever had a thought that way. Interviewer: “But at the same time I think it’s important that historians do take the tie and sit back say, “Guess what, this had an effect and this happened because of what you did during that period.” A time when you were just a teenager.” I was just a teenager, but I’ve had a good life since. I haven’t—I participated in the meeting and the association and the reunions etc., but it hasn’t encompassed my life like some others. Interviewer: “But it’s an important part of your life.” I haven’t forgotten and I never will. I know that dad would have been proud of me had he lived to see me playing. 3:40 Interviewer: “I think it’s important that he encouraged you to begin with.” That was and the boys in the neighborhood added to it too. I remember about ten days before dad died, it was in November, he had me out between the houses in our neighborhood where I grew up, throwing a football. Interesting—that was almost his last day of consciousness. He had just come home from the hospital and he was built-up a little bit. Interviewer: “But your mom got a chance to see your success.” She wasn’t interested in baseball, not at all. I think she knew though—one thing she said, I remember and it was when I graduated from Community College, she said, “You’re the first person in the family to get a degree.” It was only an Associates Degree, but it was a degree, it was putting two years together. I think she was, but I don’t think she ever came over to see a game. I’m not sure about that, maybe she did. 3:41 Interviewer: “Do you have other family?” No, I have cousins that I don’t know—not really. Interviewer: “I’m an only child also.” You miss a lot. 16 �Interviewer: “You do, but on the other hand there’s a comfort level being by yourself that have families don’t have.” That is true. You think a little differently. Interviewer. “I think so and if you actually take time to improve yourself and your independence, it strengthens you, but I have very close friends.” I do too, a lot of wonderful friends and that means a lot. Interviewer: “Are there any thoughts that you want to add?” No, I can’t think of any unless you want to ask me more questions. I feel like I did a decent job for you. 3:42 Interviewer: “This has been a wonderful time.” Do you tell everyone that? Interviewer: “No, but each one is that unique.” We are all different, right. Get Dolly going and you will enjoy her. Interviewer: “Thank you very much and good-bye” Thank you Frank, it was nice meeting you. 3:42 17 �18 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MJenkins Title A name given to the resource Jenkins, Marilyn M. (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jenkins, Marilyn Description An account of the resource Marilyn Jenkins was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1934. She grew up in Grand Rapids and played baseball with family and friends, and played softball with the neighborhood kids. When the Grand Rapids Chicks arrived in 1945, she talked her way into a job with the team and quickly became their batgirl, a job she held through the 1951 season. She played as a batgirl from 1945 thru 1951. Upon graduating high school in 1952, she became eligible to play in the All American Girls Professional Baseball League and went on to play with the Grand Rapids Chicks from 1952 to 1954 as a catcher. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-07-01 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b98eed957e78aae23ddbcb86e0946f8.m4v e3173f2c6d686c9e5a100a7d5a68fc0f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e276c6d4e9f7fc07b0ee8c54617d633.pdf 1e09d055abdb248d6048eae7ebcc5049 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Mike Corona Born: Racine, Wisconsin, November 9, 1928 Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Library of Congress Veterans History Project Transcribed by: Joan Raymer Interviewer: “Mike if we could begin with your name and where and when were you born?” My name is Michael D. Corona and I was born in the city of Racine, Wisconsin on November 9, 1928 and I was born right in my own house at 1300 Lake Avenue in Racine. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” My early childhood was fine except that when I was four years old I had scarlet fever and I was put back a grade in school and that put me graduating a year behind all the friends that I played ball with, worked out with and went to school with you know, but other than that my childhood was fine. My mother and father were the greatest. :59 Interviewer: “What did your dad do?” My dad worked in a foundry. He was a molder and he was a jobbing molder at Belle City Racine Steel Castings Company, where I, after I graduated from Horlick High School in 1947, I went to work there myself for thirty-two and a half years. Interviewer: “Your mother was a housewife?” My mother was a homemaker, plus she worked at Rainfare, Inc., which made raincoats, pants, clothing and everything and during the war they made a lot of raincoats for the army and I eventually worked, when I was a sophomore and Junior in high school, I worked at Rainfare part time. 1:46 Interviewer: “Did you have brothers and sisters?” I have three other brothers and three sisters and now I’m the only brother that’s left. Three of my brothers have passed away. Interviewer: “Now, you lived in a neighborhood that had a ball park nearby. Tell us about how close it was and what was that ball park anyway?” 2:07 The ball part was the Horlick Athletic Field, which was three and a half blocks south of where I lived. It’s where all the big name teams played; all the high schools used it for football and all of the baseball. In fact they had midget auto racing there, they had wrestling and they had Joe Darcetti, Joe Darcetti was, I don’t know if you remember, he 1 �was Gorgeous George in the wrestling field. He was there, they had big entertainment like Al Schacht the clown of baseball came there and I participated in his event when he was there. It was a good ballpark, but when I—at first when I was a kid it was all wood. The outside of it was all wood and the CC Camp came into town and put it up in brick and it’s all brick now. 3:02 Interviewer: “What is the CC Camp?” From Fort McCoy. Interviewer: “What id CC stand for?” Conservation. Interviewer: “Oh, the Conservation Corps, sure.” The Conservation Corps. yeah. Interviewer: “All right now, I want to start and I don’t want to jump too far into the story because we got some time. Ok? What is your first recollection of going to the ball park, how old were you and did you go just as a spectator, what was your first recollection of going to the ball park?” Well, my first recollection of going to the ballpark is when Horlick High School used to play over there. Football and they use to have a semi-pro league called Metal Parts and they played softball there and when they had the games, we use to sneak through the wooden fence to go into the ballpark. 3:51 When I was about ten years old Elmer Christiansen, who was the caretaker of the ballpark, and I became very good friends and so when all of the ball teams would come in he’d let me know. “Mike” he said, “we got ball teams coming tonight, how about coming and being a batboy”, so when I was ten years old, I was a batboy already. Interviewer: “Wow, now, your parents didn’t mind that you were going out there at night?” No. At that time, it was a lot different than it is now. You didn’t even have to lock your doors at that time. This was in the forties right after the war you know. 4:36 Interviewer: “So, can you remember your first experience as a batboy?” My first experience, as a batboy is when the Kansas City Monarchs came into town and guess who was the pitcher? Satchel Paige. Satchel Paige came in there and I was the batboy for the Kansas City Monarchs and they played the Racine Blues. Interviewer: “Can you remember anything about the game?” Not very much, but it was a good game. Interviewer: “What were your duties as a batboy?” 2 �My duties as a batboy was to make sure that all the bats were in place. When the batter got done hitting, I made sure I got the bat out of the way in case there was a play at home plate and then I shagged balls for the guys and get their gloves, give them a towel, give them a glass of water, the major things of being a batboy. 5:29 Interviewer: “Any other team before the women came to town, let’s put it that way, what other teams were you the batboy for? What kinds of events were you the batboy for?” Just the semi-pro baseball teams that use to play there and then Metal Parts once and a while. I would go over there and watch them play because that was my game, fast pitch, and I only played a little baseball, but I played a lot of fast pitch. 6:00 Interviewer: “Did you have any advance notice about these women playing baseball? How did that all come about for you?” Well, only through the sports pages and Jim O’Brian, who was a good editor. Keith Briim, who was the sports—him and Don Black, who was the personnel director at Western Publishing Company, had the biggest involvement in getting the Racine Belles there. They had to go to Chicago to meet with Wrigley to get them to come to Racine. 6:34 Interviewer: “So, when they first came to town, were you automatically the batboy? How did that all come about?” I asked Johnny Gottselig, who was the manager, if I could be the batboy because when they came into town they stayed and they had usual practice before the season started and I went over and talked to Johnny Gottselig, who was the manager, and asked him if I could be the batboy because I had an assistant whose sister was on the ball team, Mary Nesbitt, my assistant, Buddy who helped me when I was playing. 7:09 Interviewer: “How old were you when they came to town?” Fourteen. Interviewer: “So you were only fourteen years old?” Yes, fourteen. Interviewer: “Since you already knew the lay of the land, you had already been a batboy there for a while, so it wasn’t that unusual for you to just walk up to the manager and say, “I got experience here”, how did you sell him on the idea?” Elmer helped a lot too and Leo Murphy who eventually became one of the managers of the Belles was a catcher in one of the minor league teams I played in Racine and he was a good friend of mine because I use to get his glove for him and all that and he helped me out with Mr. Gottselig. 7:54 3 �Interviewer: “You came with a resume.” I came with a resume. Interviewer: “What I want to try to get here is, and maybe it didn’t exist, but you’re doing the batboy for the men’s teams ok. Women didn’t ordinarily play baseball like that. These were good players, you’re fourteen years old and you’ve seen some good players, you saw Satchel Paige, can you remember your first game with the women?” Oh ya, oh ya, because Sophie, I think she stole four bases that day and Joanne Winter pitched a one hitter and Mary Nesbitt came in the next day and pitched a no hitter. You don’t forget things like that, you don’t. Too bad Joanne isn’t around any more, but Mary Nesbitt is still alive and she lives in Florida and we keep in contact with her when we go down to Florida. You take some of these girls like Maddy English, Edy Perlick, Claira Schillace; they could have played in any men’s league. 8:55 Then we had a girl from Racine who was a first baseman, Margie Danhauser, and I knew her very well. Interviewer: “Were there any big differences between being a batboy for the men’s team as opposed to the women’s team?” The duties were practically the same. I made sure that everything was clear, bats were all put in order and everything. The only thing different between the men and the women is when the women had to slide they got burned and man they had to lift up that skirt and it was different than the men, the men wore long pants and the outfits the girls wore were delicate you know. 9:38 Interviewer: “Your job didn’t have anything to do with taking care of the strawberries or any of that?” No, no, that was Mrs. Anderson’s job, Mary Anderson. Interviewer: “How about the behavior of the men compared to the behavior of the women? Any differences there, when they come off, maybe they didn’t like the way they hit the ball or they got struck out, let’s get an inside look here.” The men were a little different; they throw the bats you know. If they miss the ball, if they strike out they say damn it or they swear a little bit you know, but the women, they took it in stride and it was a different ball game. We had pitchers in the men’s that really threw BB’s, they were fast and they were good ball players and the women were good too, but don’t forget your mound was only thirty-eight feet from home plate and when they pitched they threw BB’s too and it was a different game, a different game between the men and the women. 10:45 Interviewer: “How were the fans?” The fans were great you know, but at first they didn’t come, who would want to come? First we had Metal Parts, which was a good semi-pro men’s team and they took a lot of 4 �the fans away from the—but when the Belles started winning and then the fans came and the fans would really pack that place on a Sunday afternoon double header was kind of different because it was chilly sometimes and sometimes you couldn’t even see the game because the foundry was right there and if we would get a southwest wind and they were smelting iron, you could hardly see the ball players on the field, but it was a good thing. 11:32 Interviewer: “Now, you got a perspective of the game that even the players didn’t get and the fans didn’t get. Were there any particular plays that you saw that—you were experienced, you knew baseball already, you’d see how the pros—were there any particular plays that you saw that you just went “WOW, that’s amazing, how’d she do that?” Any particular—either throwing the ball or catching somebody out, any of those kind of remarkable things?” Well, you never had two better—ended appealing on a double play—English to Sophie, to Margy Danhauser you know. The double play was the best play that the women made and Edy Perlick had a wonderful arm in left field and Clara had a good arm in center because she covered a lot of center field because Horlick field wasn’t small, it was a big ball park because they used that for baseball and it was a long way out to that fence. 12:35 some of those girls could hit that ball, but one thing about the Racine Belles, they had three good outfielders in Perlick, Clara Schillace and Eleanor Dapkus, they had three good outfielders. Interviewer: “What other teams did you see playing the Belles? They would have other ones coming in?” You would have the South Bend Blue Sox, you had the Kenosha Comets and you had the Rockford Peaches and Reno Giocenti, who was an Umpire from Racine, when he would work a game in Rockford, he would ask me if I would like to go along, so I would go to Rockford and be the batboy for the Racine Belles in Rockford and also, the Kenosha Comets you know. Sometimes I had to take the interurban to go to Kenosha because they played their games at Lakefront Stadium, which is no longer there, but it was so close, everything was so close. The only team I didn’t get to go to their ballpark was the South Bend Blue Sox, but the Comets, the Rockford Peaches and the Belles were the three parks I participated in. 13:40 Interviewer: “Now, you’re a young little fourteen year old with a bunch of cute girls running around, did any of them think you were their favorite or something? Did you have somebody that you thought maybe was your sweetheart even though she was not your sweetheart?” Not in that way, but we liked, you know Clara, she was a nice Italian girl you know and Horlick field was in “little Italy” and when the Belles would play there, Racine Steel or Belle city would have their freight cars—they would part them right over center field and all the guys from the block would go sit on top of the boxcar and watch the game you know and after the game they would all go see Clara. She was probably the most favored 5 �one of all the Racine Belles that played, but all of the girls were wonderful. Joanne Winters, Sophie and then you had Choo Choo Hickson who was funny as hell. 14:43 Interviewer: “Why was she funny as hell?” She was always clowning around a little bit. When they were all in Racine, they lived in Racine, they all came to Ace Grille, which was a restaurant downtown and that where you would always find all the girls and they had a pool room downstairs and a couple of them would go down and shoot pool, but it was wonderful. They were all good girls. Interviewer: “Now, every group has a clown and somebody who’s—tell us about a few of the personalities if you will. From your perspective tell us about some personalities.” 15:17 There wasn’t that much to tell about it frankly. They were all ladies and actually like in the movie—in the movie that was Hollywood. You didn’t see occasions like Spaghetti and them going out and dancing. These girls were well respected and they were invited to the country clubs and they did a lot of community work and Johnson’s Wax took care of them—made sure that they were well represented. Like I say, the movie was all Hollywood and I wasn’t the batboy then. 16:01 Interviewer: “Any particular game or games that really stands out for you? Something that you just went WOW.” The championship game, the championship game between Rockford and the Belles. It was like it was in the movie, but it didn’t happen that way you know. Interviewer: “Tell us how it happened, start us off from the beginning and kind of work us through the game.” The game was well played and it ended up four to three and there was no home run like they had in the movie with Geena Davis dropping the ball. It was a game and the score was four to three. It was just a regular championship game played like champions and like I say, any of them—any of those girls could have made any men’s team in the country. They had arms and they were good arms too and I’ll tell you. 16:56 Interviewer: “Now you spent how long being the batboy for Racine?” Just the Belles, just the one year 1943 because then I went—I became a freshman and I started playing basketball, softball and all that. In fact, in 1944 I tried out –they had the St. Louis Cardinals had a clinic at Horlick Field and I tried out and I went two weeks, I was there for two weeks, but I just didn’t have it to make—to be a major leaguer you know, but I loved the game and you can ask my wife—I played a lot of ball. Sometimes I played—because I played a lot of fast pitch and we were the state champions for five years in a row and we use to play sixty-five games a year and a lot of traveling. 17:51 Sometimes I would go away on the weekend and come home and go right to work, but I love my wife, she really watched me. 6 �Interviewer: “this is going back a little way and maybe at the time you didn’t think of it as much, but when did you find out that the league was actually ending? Do you remember that at all?” That was 1954 and just through the sports writing because I was already working and we already had a couple of children and it was just too bad that they had to—but you could see it dying a slow death because baseball was coming back now and guys like DiMaggio and all them were all trying to hit the ball and you could see it was dying, but I was glad it was Kalamazoo because we were there just a couple of years ago when they showed the last game in 1954 when they ended the season. 18:56 Interviewer: “So, when you stopped being a batboy like you say, you were in school and eventually to work, were you still a fan? Did you still go to the games?” Oh yes, I would go to the women’s games. Interviewer: “Let’s talk about that then. You were mentioning that things had kind of died out, but let’s go back—now you’re in the stands and you’re watching as a fan or did they still let you down there?” No, I went as a fan. Elmer was still there and I would see him when I would go there and his sister Edna was the general manager and she would let me in. I watched a lot of the Belles play until I graduated from high school and then I kind of fell off a little bit, but I ran into Irene Hickson and she was telling me, “how come you don’t join the association?” I didn’t even know I could join because now I’m classified as league personnel, so I signed a card and my wife and I have been going now since 1991 to the reunion and it’s a great thing. 20:09 Recall the girls and see them all you know. Interviewer: “They remember you?” Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “I want to get back to when you started to see that things were winding down. Was it that the crowds weren’t there or what was it?” They only played in Racine until 1950. 1950 was the last year they played in Racine and then, I think, the belles became the Grand Rapids Belles or or something, but they only played until 1950 and you could see in 1948 and 1947 that they were dying down because the crowds—metal Parts was in a pretty good league and they were there you know. 21:00 Interviewer: “Did you have any, I know this isn’t fair because it was a long, long time ago, when you saw in the paper that the league was ending, did you have any reactions or any thought that it was too bad or anything at all that you can remember?” It was a sad thing for the league to disband, but you have to remember that these girls did something that nobody ever did. They brought back—you know guys were all over there 7 �in the army over in the war and when they came home they had something to go to. I never had a chance to be in the army because I was too young and all that, but when these girls would be there, these guys were really happy you know. “ Hey, that’s somewhere to go, let’s go over to Horlick Field, a double header today”, but it was just too bad that the league didn’t go over. Then the—then Milwaukee got a ball team, the Braves and they had other things to occupy their time. Like I say, the league ended—the Racine Belles disbanded in 1950. 22:05 Interviewer: “Now I’ve asked this question and we’ve all asked this question to each one of the women, they played ball, they enjoyed ball and then afterwards when it ended there was this sadness, but they kind of went on with their lives, but at some point they kind of recognized that they did something special. Did that ever happen to you? Was there a point in your life where you realized, not necessarily you, but they had done something pretty amazing besides just playing good baseball? Was there any point where you just kind of thought back that that was kind of an amazing period of time? 22:38 Amazing because I was the first batboy for the Racine Belles and that’s what I tell people that I was probably the only boy that was a batboy for the women’s teams when they originated in 1943, but after I got out of high school, I did a lot. I was active in the Democratic party, I was active in the unions, retirees groups and on Labor Day, bowling. I had a—in fact now I even got a bowling league named after me, I’m in the Racine Bowling Hall of Fame, and I was occupied as my wife will tell you. I was never home. 23:28 Interviewer: “At what point did you actually—either it was called to your attention or you just thought about it, that you were part of something that was something pretty amazing?” Well, the only thing I can say is that I never got any pictures of me when I was the batboy. Somebody’s got pictures of me in California, but we’ve never made contact with the person, but other than that it was wonderful to be with the girls and they were great. Interviewer: “Now, what was your reaction to hearing that they were going to be put into the Baseball Hall of Fame?” I was just wondering why they didn’t put the batboys in. You know, they put the girls in because we were out there, but they were out there all the time you know. They played all them games you know and they worked hard and they deserved to have some recognition in the Hall of Fame. 24:28 We enjoyed it when we went to Cooperstown when they had the reunion in Syracuse and we all went to Cooperstown. It was just too bad that—they tried to get me into the Hall of Fame because I was a league personnel and I was involved for sixty games that they played at home and I never missed a game. For the championship game, when I was a batboy, I usde to wear a pair of jeans and a nice white tee shirt, but for the championship game Don Black said, “Mike, you got to have a uniform”, so they sent me to one of the men’s stores and I bought a nice pair of brown 8 �pants and a yellow shirt so I would look just like the Racine Belles on the day of the championship game. 25:22 That was one of the biggest—because at that time you know things were tough. Interviewer: “I’ve asked the women, and I’m sure you have heard this one before, what did you think of the movie?” It was Hollywood. It was Hollywood the movie was Hollywood. It was nice to see something done and they got some recognition from it and Penny Marshall did a very good job on it, but some of the stuff they had in there the girls never did because like I said, they were ladies. They never had drinking parties riding on a bus. Tom Hanks— you wouldn’t see Johnny Gottselig come into the locker room and go to the bathroom. That was just Hollywood. 26:16 Interviewer: “There were some scenes, for example when Davis walks into the ballpark and then playing and all that, some of the girls have said that that was kind of—at least it showed the overall story.” The overall picture, but on the end there with the presentation at the Hall of Fame, when Gina Davis walks in and sees her sister and some of the girls that are here now participated in the movie and it was a good movie and we watch it every chance we can and sometimes—we got a tape of it, and like I say, it was mostly all Hollywood. 27:00 The batboy and no crying in baseball. Interviewer: “Now I’ll ask you a question I ask everyone of them as well, and as you said, you did a lot after that. You can look back and certainly even now you got bowling and you have a successful family and all that, but I want you to go inside right now and being a batboy at that time, did that have any effect on the person that you became, the person that you are now? 27:33 That experience of going to the ballpark, seeing Satchel Paige, seeing these women do these things did that have an effect on who you are today?” No, no, no, because when I got involved at work my possibilities of being a president were nothing at all, I had a family to support, I did my work, I worked every day, I never missed a day of work, I loved my family, I loved my wife and I did a lot. I did a lot for the city of Racine, I was a commissioner on a parks and recreation for twenty-four years, I was labor person of the year, I was a delegate for the Democratic national convention in 1976 and 1980, I got into the oval office with Jimmy Carter, so what more can you accomplish other than being a good husband, a good father and a great grandfather. 28:43 Interviewer: “thank you very much, that was a great interview. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MCorona Title A name given to the resource Corona, Mike (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Corona, Mike Description An account of the resource Mike Corona was born in Racine, Wisconsin on November 9, 1928. He grew up in the Racine area playing baseball with his friends. At the age of ten, because of his friendship with the caretaker of the Horlick Athletic Field, he started playing as a batboy for men's semi-pro teams. When the All American Girls League came to Racine, he became a batboy working under Racine manager, Johnny Gottselig and his team. Corona worked as batboy only in 1943 and then went off to college and pursued other career endeavors. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Olson, Gordon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e33d53e7013aa24d4c7566ada18a85c.m4v 0dd3a7d8d927c1b14e437c0a135907b3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/92c152dc2fc473078b0a4117896abf80.pdf 8b7f2d67bd3e1feebbd5eb820b289c2f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Mary Lou Caden Born: Oaklawn, Illinois Resides: Hot Springs Village, Arkansas Interviewed by: Gordon Olson on September 26, 2009 in Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League Reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer March 24, 2010 Interviewer: “I like to start with some basic background information. Where your home was, where you were born, a little bit about your parents and family and then we will ease on into baseball.” Ok, I was born in Oak Lawn, Illinois, which now is just a suburb of Chicago and my dad was a harness maker. He had a shop in the stockyards and he made leather goods-saddles, bridles and we boarded his rented horses out on the farm. I had seven brothers and I was the baby and the only girl and I wasn’t spoiled—I had to fight my way through life. My dad got killed in an accident when I was five and we moved to the city. There were four brothers at home plus me and my mom. I was never much for feminine things because of having all the boys around, so I more or less learned how to do everything that a boy should learn how to do. My mother taught me how to cook, embroider, sew and things a girl needs to know and I swore when I grew up I would never iron kitchen towels again, which I don’t do. I competed with my brothers in sports in the neighborhood. We didn’t have equipment like they have now and we would come home from school and change—put your school clothes away and put on your play clothes and find a vacant lot and go play ball or whatever was in season. Interviewer: “And the popular kid was the one with the ball, right?” 2:14 Right. The brother closest to me, the seventh son, he wasn’t too athletic, so he was always kind of like the last one picked for a team and he always complained to my mother, “why doesn’t she go play with the girls?” He felt bad about that. Interviewer: “You were picked before he was?” Yeah, so my mom told me, she said, “you better go find someplace else to play, Tommy feels real bad about this”, and I could understand when I got older you know, but I started going up to the park and I had a glove, my sister-in-law got me a glove or my brother did, and I went up to the park and started playing with the fellas who were practicing. Pretty soon I got to play practice games with them, but I couldn’t play in the park league games, they didn’t allow girls, but I got enough practice games in and I really enjoyed it. 3:15 Interviewer: “How old were you about?” 1 �I was about fourteen. Interviewer: “The park had a league for boys, but nothing for girls?” They had volleyball and dancing and stuff like that. Interviewer: “Not your favorite activities.” No. Interviewer: “You’re about fourteen at this point, so how do you get from there to playing on a team? What was the transition?” 4:45 The athletic director of the park had a couple of girls ask him about playing softball, so he got the advertisements in the paper and he got enough girls come out to start softball teams, fast pitch, but I still played with the boys whenever I got a chance. The Chicago Daily News hired Rogers Hornsby to go out to the parks and conduct baseball clinics. When he came to Marquette Park I was out there with the fellas. They told everybody to be sure to show up because they got a big shot coming to teach you how to play and being the only girl, I got a lot of attention and a lot of publicity in the neighborhood. Rogers Hornsby was a friend of William Wrigley, who started the girls league in 1943, now I’m talking 1946, so he went back and told Wrigley about the fella in Marquette Park that had girls playing and they contacted this fella, his name was Lenny Zintak, and they got him to organize farm teams. 6:03 He sent out notices to all the parks for tryouts. They had tryouts on the north side of Chicago, a tryout on the south side and he had over 120 girls show up. He picked out the best and he had four teams, two on the north side and two on the south side. We played twice a week; we played anywhere they had lights, sometimes we would play on a Sunday afternoon if we could find a place with lights. 6:31 Interviewer: “You couldn’t play on Saturdays because the boys were all playing?” Saturdays were usually real busy with other activities, so he tried to keep it one week night plus Sunday afternoon. We got a lot of experience and we had a lot of fun doing it, we had chaperones, the same as the league did. In fact, my chaperone picked me up because I was only fifteen and I couldn’t drive and another gal from the south side was only thirteen, she picked her up, and that girl went on to play one year with South Bend, but her mom thought she was too young for all that traveling, so she brought her back home. 7:24 Interviewer: “I bet that was hard for her.” Yea, it was. I got an offer to go to Cuba spring training in 1947 and boy I was in seventh heaven when I opened the envelope and read this. I showed my mom I was going to Cuba and she looked at it and said, “that’s in April”, and I said, “Yea” and she said, “Well, you’re in school until June”, and she wouldn’t sign, so that was the end of that. Interviewer: “How old were you at this point?” 2 �Fifteen, so old fashioned family—you live in my house, you follow my rules and we did that. I played every year in the farm system and got a lot of experience. I started out playing shortstop and then I broke my ankle, never did learn how to slide right, and I played outfield and when they went to side arm and overhand pitching, Lenny switched me to pitching because I have a strong arm. 8:25 Interviewer: “You’ve been a shortstop for one thing, so you had more experience throwing overhand than maybe even some of the underhand pitchers had.” From playing outfield too. I graduated high school in 1949 and had an appendicitis attack, so I was able to hold that off until after I graduated. I had a job at the First National Bank of Chicago while I was still a senior in high school, because it was a part time job at the bank and I had to wait until I could be covered by hospitalization to have my appendix taken out, because we didn’t have money or a doctor and that was in 1950. 9:12 I managed to play the tail end of the season in Chicago in 1950 and then my manager, Mitch Skupien, was contacted to come up and manage the Grand Rapids Chicks, so he came over to the house. He was Polish and I’m Bohemian and he could talk to my mother and they understood each other and he said, “ma, I’m going to take Mary Lou with me to Grand Rapids, she’s going to pitch for my team”, so mom said, “ok, go ahead”. Even though I was of age, you still waited for your parent’s permission to do these crazy things, because a girl playing baseball was crazy. 9:52 I went up to Grand Rapids in 1951 and I played there in 1951, 52 and 53 and they traded my contract to Fort Wayne because they had dropped down to four teams and they wanted to try to even off the teams. They sent me a contract and they said, “we pooled the players and you will now be playing for Fort Wayne and you will be making sixty dollars a month less”, and I said, “not on my boat”, because I had a good job at the First National Bank, I was a bookkeeper. Interviewer: “The rest of the year and the bank gave you release time all summer to play baseball?” I had a real terrific boss, he was sports minded and I’d leave in April and come back at the end of September and it worked out fine for three years, but when they wanted to cut me sixty dollars, I was making more money at the bank and being Bohemian that meant a lot to me. 10:57 I said, “no way, I’m retiring”, and I didn’t play in 1954, which was the last year the league survived. Interviewer: “By the end of 1954 there wasn’t a lot left.” They weren’t making—they were losing money. Interviewer: “Let’s back up a little bit and use that outline to talk about some specifics. Among other things, what’s your recollection—you did some spring training before the season started. First of all, where did you do the spring training and what was it like?” 11:34 The first year we trained in Battle Creek, Michigan I think. 3 �Interviewer: “So it started a little bit later—we think of spring training now as almost a winter activity.” It was April and I had the distinction of being the only Grand Rapids Chicks that gained weight at spring training. We met for breakfast, they brought sandwiches and milk to the ballpark at lunchtime and we met for training table in the evening. Well, a lot of the girls didn’t eat oatmeal; they wanted eggs and stuff, so I said, “Aren’t you going to eat that oatmeal? Pass it down”. At dinner a lot of them didn’t eat salad, so they would pass them down and I gained ten pounds and Mitch, the manager, he said, “how did you sneak out for hamburgers and milk shakes and stuff?” I said, “I didn’t spend a penny, I didn’t spend a penny”. 12:40 My teammates knew it. Interviewer: “There was other food to be had and that’s good. They put you through a pretty rigorous spring training then. You were up for breakfast and then out on the field. You stayed at the field at noon?” We stayed at the field at noon and I think we had an hour break. We sat in the bleachers and ate our lunch and then we started out again. I worked pitching, naturally, and then we would all do calisthenics together in the morning and then we would break for infield, outfield, pitching practice, and then the pitchers would run and we would shag fly balls while the outfield was throwing in to first, second, third, you know, with the regular fielders and stuff, but we were kept busy all day long. 13:34 Interviewer: “ The coaches you were dealing with, these are former major leaguers in a lot of cases?” Major leaguers. Interviewer: “Men?” Yea. Interviewer: “They had experience with baseball and coaching, so they gave you pretty much the same routine, pretty much, that you would expect to find in professional baseball at other levels.” True, and the next year, 1952, Woody English was our manager. They started out the season, because English accepted a contract from Muskegon, Michigan and they brought in Jonny Gottselig, who was a former Blackhawk hockey player and for some reason he wasn’t going to stay the whole season, so they brought in Woody English in 1952. 14:25 Woody was great, he was really great, I mean he knew baseball and he was a perfect gentleman. People ask us about the movie, A League of Their Own and Tom Hanks, I think Woody and what a perfect gentleman. He would walk out to the mound when I was pitching and when I was in trouble and he would say, “M.L. how are you feeling?” He was real concerned like a father would be and when they had Tom Hanks portraying this drunken manager, it was such a slap in the face for fellas like Woody who really did their job and gave a hundred and ten percent. 15:06 4 �Interviewer: “You’re not the only former Chick that talks that way about Woody English. He did his job—he was a professional too. He had a good career and then he continued to conduct himself as a professional. I have a letter at home—after the 1951, my fourth year, I won twelve games before I lost one. I had a hard time winning number thirteen, so my record was 15 and 5, so in 1952, when I got my contract, I got a little raise, but it wasn’t much and I talked to Woody and I said, “I think I deserve more money than that”, so Woody said, “I’ll tell you what M.L., if you win fifteen games, I’ll give you two hundred dollars”, so he wrote it out and signed it and I still have it, it’s precious. Well, I won twelve and I lost thirteen, so I didn’t make the two hundred. 16:03 Interviewer: “It sounds like maybe your teammates didn’t give you a lot of support.” Well yeha, it proves out because on my baseball card I had a nice low earned run average, so it wasn’t a hundred percent my pitching, I had a little help losing. Interviewer: “Yea, you can get beat one to nothing and pitch really well that’s for sure. Do you remember your first contract and how much you got paid?” My first contract, I got three forty five a month and then on the road, they paid our hotel and we got dinner money, I forget what it was. 16:46 Interviewer: “Do you remember your chaperone?” Dotty Hunter, absolutely. Interviewer: “Was she good?” A wonderful woman yes, 1952 we were playing in Battle Creek and you would swear it was December—it was cold and I was pitching that night, so I lathered myself up with red hot, sweatshirt, uniform and I went out there and I sweated up a storm warming up, pitched a game and in between innings—the rest of me was freezing—my arms were burning, but the rest of me was freezing. Well, I caught a cold and I kind of sluffed it off, but it settled in my kidneys, so for I think maybe a week after I pitched, I started feeling kind of groggy and I would sit in the dugout and fall asleep. 17:50 Dotty Hunter came up to me one time in the locker room, I was sitting there waiting for the players to shower, I wasn’t in any hurry, I was tired, I didn’t do anything, but I was tired. Dotty Hunter said, “M.L. you’re not drinking are you?” I said, “no, I don’t feel good”, and she made me go to the doctor the next day and I had to give a urine specimen and they found out that I had a cold that had settled in my kidneys, so they gave me prescriptions and took me to where I was boarding. I was living with a widow, she had a son and a daughter and I was boarding there. They told her that I was sick and I medicine and she said, “I’ll take care of her”, and she nursed me just like a mother would. 18:40 She made me get up in the morning, drink juice, clean up, eat soup, all soft good stuff, made me take my medicine and stuff like that and after about a week my mother called because I hadn’t written to her every day and she didn’t know what was the matter, so she just told her I was sick, but getting better. She knew something was wrong and Woody said 5 �to me, “you know, I was worried about you, I didn’t think you were the type that would do something like that”. Interviewer: “He knew something was wrong though. That was the case with a lot of the players, wasn’t it? They lived with families?” Oh yeah, we all did, all the cities. I know in the movie they showed all the girls living in a boarding house, but no, that wasn’t true. Some places there would be four girls that would stay with one family, sometimes a widow would have a couple extra bedrooms. 19:51 The ball park people, in different towns, would interview people that were interested in putting up the girls and they picked out people that were suitable and could pass the muster, so it worked out real well. Interviewer: “So that was a good environment and made your mother a little more confident that you were in good hands.” Absolutely and I will tell you this, the gal that was my chaperone in Chicago in the farm system, convinced my mother she had to come and see me play ball. They came down to South Bend and South Bend had a pitcher, her name was Jean Faut, she was top notch and about a week before we had played South Bend in Grand Rapids and I was pitching against Jean Fout. I’m up to bat and Jean Fout throws a fastball inside and I jump back, the next pitch she throws a curve inside and I’m thinking it’s a fastball and I’m not going to look chicken again, so I stood there and it whacked me in the inside of my thigh, so a week later I’m down in South Band and I’m scheduled to pitch, so I come out with the catcher just before the game started to warm up and I was black and blue and purple and green 21:13 and my mother’s sitting up in the stands with out chaperone and she sees that and she says, “my god, you would think she would wash her legs”, and I didn’t know this until I came home in September when the chaperone came to see me and told me about it. Then she said to her, “those guys in the black, what team are they on because they all got the same black?” I had to kind of explain baseball to her. 21:48 My mother was forty-three when I was born, so by the time I was twenty, she was sixty-three and there was no sports in our lifetime and there was no television, so she didn’t have the opportunity to learn about the game of baseball. Interviewer: “But her daughter was playing and she went to see it.” 22:06 Oh yeah. Interviewer: “You mentioned Umpires and this is a good chance to ask you about the Umpires in the league a little bit. How good were they and did you have any problems with them?” They were mostly pretty good, but we had a few that were kind of borderline. I disagreed with one guy and I got fined ten dollars for my disagreement, but Woody paid it for me. He said, “I know you can’t afford it, I’ll take care of it”, but it was just a call, third strike or a ball four and I lost it, so I kind of disagreed with him. 6 �Interviewer: “When you say kind of disagreed, it sounds like maybe you got in the Umpires face a little bit.” Well, I walked up and I said, “why did you call that”, and he told and I said, “you’re full of---“, and that was it. 22:59 Interviewer: “Take a seat. Do you remember the first game that you played when you went up to Grand Rapids?” Yes I do. Interviewer: “Tell me about it.” Well, I was nervous actually and I didn’t want to seem to cocky, being the new kid on the block, but we had a lot of players that were very supportive, Connie Wisniewski, Doris Satterfield, Alma Ziegler, Inez Voyce, Corky Olinger, short stop and when I was warming up and when I came out you know, “Ziggy”, she was the captain of the team, she came out to the mound and said, “ok M.L. let’s get ‘em”, like there was nothing to it and I kind relaxed a little and as they started striking out and grounding out easy grounders, I kind of got a little confidence and we won the game and I felt real good, but I didn’t feel cocky. 24:09 I just felt good because the team had played good too. I remember one game I lost and I thought, “I’m going to kill everybody before this night’s over”, they were bootin’ the ball all over the place and “Ziggy” walked over and handed me the ball after we finally got one out and she said, “hang in there M.L.”. You know teammates, everybody has good nights and bad nights and it just happened that five teammates had a bad night on the same night. 24:38 Interviewer: “They don’t go out there to deliberately miss the ball.” No, but all and all I felt really good about it and it gave me a lot of confidence that my teammates were behind me. Interviewer: “What kind of a hitter were you?” I could bunt. I really could bunt. I use to practice bunting at home. I would have anybody I could find throw a ball so I could practice to bunt and I forget who he had come up to teach us how to bunt. I know we had Maury Wills come out one time to teach us how to run bases. Interviewer: “Really?” 25:21 In Grand Rapids, I think that Woody English got him out. I’ll never forget that because I saw Maury Wills one time at a fan fest and when it came time for the audience to ask him questions, I asked him how he felt about base runners today and I asked him, “were you ever uninjured?” He said, “no”. I said, “I know you were hurt a lot”, and he said, “You played hurt”. 25:55 Interviewer: “You played hurt because you’re sliding around out there without---“ 7 �If you didn’t play, there was somebody waiting to take your spot, so if you wanted to stay in the game, you played hurt. Charlie horses, and all the gals that did a lot of sliding., but being a pitcher, I didn’t really have to slide, but I could run bases, I was a good base runner. I did learn and to this day I’m amazed at girls in baseball. I’ve gone out to watch quite a few games. Fast pitch, softball, and baseball and you get there early and you sit in the stands and you watch them practice or play. We were impressed with the idea that you watch your opponents to find out what their weaknesses were. Lenny Zintak taught us as kids, Mitch Skupien enforced it and Woody would always say, “did you see that she couldn’t hit a high ball in batting practice?” You learn how to keep your mouth shut in the dugout and pay attention to what was going on. 27:12 Today you go to a game and watch and the girls are talking and laughing and talking to people in the stands and I don’t know how they do it. Interviewer: “Today you go to a game and watch major leaguers and they’re not paying attention.” They’re blowing bubbles and it’s kind of pathetic and especially with the men, they’re making big money. They get caught off base and I don’t want to criticize athletes, but give me a couple million and man I’ll show you stuff. If you’re watching a pitcher, you can pick up their weaknesses when they’re in their stretch position. What are they doing? Are they lifting the back heel, are they bending their knee, are they twitching their shoulder, what are they doing signaling their going to throw home. They don’t watch that anymore. 28:11 Interviewer: “They don’t seem to.” I can’t blame the athletes, I blame the coaches and I blame the guy paying those salaries. If you work for a company and you don’t do your job, the boss says, “hey, straighten up and live right or else we got somebody else waiting for your job”, but now days they get so hooked on the publicity and all the crazy stuff. 28:36 Interviewer: “They market them like they were in Hollywood.” Yeah. Interviewer: “What’s the best game you ever pitched? I’m sure you remember it. You had several good ones.” I can’t really pin one. Any time I won a game, I felt that was the best one, but I don’t think there was one more than any other. I had a one hitter and I never had a no hitter. I had a one hitter and it didn’t really phase me and when the game was over they said, “Hey M.L. you had a one hitter”, and it was no big deal. We won and that’s what counted. 29:22 Interviewer: “Did you pitch in the playoffs? That’s a different atmosphere.” Yea, I think we played Rockford, in fact, White Taylor owned the team and White Taylor also owned the only factory in the United States that made wooden propellers, it was 8 �Flowtorp Corporation and he flew me and whoever would have been a relief pitcher across the lake from Grand Rapids to Rockford because we had a game that went overtime and I was due to pitch the next night and I think it was like eighteen hours on the bus from Grand rapids around the lake to Rockford, so we got a plane ride across. 30:09 Interviewer: “One of the few times that players were delivered by air in the league. I know the Flowtorp propeller company because I’m from Grand Rapids.” Are they still in business? Interviewer: “No, but they were through the period you’re talking about. They made those wooden propellers, you’re absolutely right. Did you have any interactions with the owners of the Grand Rapids Chicks?” 30:37 No, not really. Interviewer: “How about the community? Did they expect you to go out in the community and do any kind of appearances?” The people were great. A lot of people would invite us over for dinner and when we had a rainout or something, I think it was the Phillips family, they owned a jewelry store in Grand Rapids, they had a cabin on the lake and the cabin was always available for us to go. We would go out there fishing and have cookouts on the sand. They were really good to us. The fans were always good to us. 31:19 Interviewer: “You had some pretty good crowds in Grand Rapids too. You would have played at South Field, but also out of Bigelow.” Well, Bigelow is the one that burned down. I’ve still got a picture of me and Janie Crick climbing through the ashes looking for our uniforms and our gloves. Our stuff all burned up and we never got a penny out of it. We had to buy our own spikes and our own gloves. Interviewer: “You had to get reoutfitted in a big hurry.” I don’t know - they got uniforms from somewhere. Interviewer: “Somebody told me, I think, that the uniforms they got had longer skirts on them than you guys were use to, so they were difficult to play in until you could get them tailored a little bit. That was in 1953 or something?” 32:09 No, that was—I think it was 1951. Interviewer: “Yes, it was earlier—I was thinking it was later, but you’re right and the story is that Bigalow was a good size field and the grandstand basically is what burned.” Yes, actually your clubhouse is under the grandstand, so it all burned up. 9 �Interviewer: “Uniforms and everything and you had to replace your own equipment?” Yes. Interviewer: “That’s not right.” No. Interviewer: “How about rivals? Did Grand Rapids have any particular rivalries with any other teams?” Well, I always thought that South Bend was more or less our rival because it seemed to me that they played the toughest, but it was hard to tell because a lot of the girls had been in since 1943 and when you’re talking 1951, that’s a long time. These girls had played together, got traded, transferred, so there was a lot of friendship going on between them. 33:25 Interviewer: “They knew each other.” Yeah, and you couldn’t really sense the rivalry in their actions before and after the games. It was just during the games—everybody was business. Interviewer: “You’re a pitcher—I got to ask a couple of questions because during that time you were playing, pitchers had a reputation for sometimes doing a little extra to make the ball twist and bend the way they wanted it to. Do you have any knowledge of people working it?” Well, you couldn’t help that, that was just nature. 34:00 You had to be careful because if your fingers are wet that ball could slip too, so you had to know what you were doing. Interviewer: “I forget who it was now, but someone once suggested to me that there was one team that may have put the balls in the ice box before the game, so when you hit them—“ That’s knowledge to me. Interviewer: “There were suspicions?” Yeah. Interviewer: “You didn’t do that?” Nope. Interviewer: “What pitches did you throw?” 34:33 My best one was my fastball because I threw straight overhand. If you throw a fastball overhand and you hold the seams, when it comes off it’s going to hop. You talk about curve balls—if you throw a fast pitch directly overhand and you pull down, that ball comes in like this. 10 �Interviewer: “It gives you the impression of actually rising, it’s not, and it’s holding its level better.” You see it coming and it’s going like that. That was my best and I threw a heavy ball, I threw a heavy ball. Interviewer: “Ground balls.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Curve Ball?” So-so, but I had a good changeup, a good changeup, but like I say, I relied on my overhand fast pitch, it really did the job. Interviewer: “Some people still argue that it’s the hardest pitch to hit in baseball, a good fastball,” 35:27 I think so, because a lot of those girls, they started out pitching fast pitch underhand and then went to sidearm, then went three quarter, and we came along and we had been playing overhand, so we had the advantage of the experience of that pitch and they weren’t used to that. Interviewer: “It makes a difference.” Sure. Interviewer: “Who among the hitters you face do you remember?” The toughest? I would say the Weavers. Interviewer: “They were models for some of the players in the movie, right?” Yeah. Interviewer: “The sisters.” 36:20 Well Jeanie Fout, for a pitcher, she was tough when she was up to bat. I really can’t think of their names right now. I’m seventy- eight and we’re getting a little short minded besides short winded. Interviewer: “You’re confronting what I heard from some of the others about these tough hitters. Faut, people do recognize her as pretty much all around, she could pitch and hit. How about on the “Chicks”, your own team mates?” On the “Chicks”, Connie Wisniewski and Doris Satterfield—they were tough. Connie had pitched for many years, but then when they went directly overhand, she didn’t want to hack it and Sadie was just a natural hitter. Sometimes I would pitch batting practice and boy you could be throwing them up there three quarter speed, you know for batting practice you’re supposed to, and they were whacking them and sometimes I would get mad and really line on in there and they would whack it. 37:47 11 �Interviewer: “The good ones can.” Those girls were really good. Interviewer: “Once again I’ve heard others say the same thing. For three years you played and then you didn’t want to take a pay cut and you moved on as they say. Did you continue playing ball though?” Oh yes, softball in the Park District in Chicago. I played with a team that was sponsored by Tava and we won the championship three years in a row and they asked us to move to a different park. They wanted some fair competition. 38:28 Interviewer: “As an overhand pitcher, you had to move to a different position or were you an Umpire?” I went back to shortstop for softball. My first husband died in 1970 and I got remarried in 1972 and in, I think, 1974, it was Sunday afternoon and my husband was there, I have three daughters, and I hit a long ball trying to stretch it into a home run, but I had to stop at third base and in the next game I made the third out and as I walked over, my oldest daughter said to me, “Ma, you better sit down, you’re red in the face, you look like your going to have a heart attack”, so my husband just looked at me and shook his head. It was about a hundred degrees, it was the middle of July, so after the game I thought, “I better hang ‘em up” 39:29 Interviewer: “Here’s your sign. Were your daughters ball players too?” Well, they tried. I coached the church team and they tried, but I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown, so we didn’t play the second year. The two youngest ones are great swimmers and the youngest got into field hockey in college and liked it. Interviewer: “They’re athletes, just not ball players.” They all wound up being swimmers, which I was never a swimmer, but I did take lessons. 40:15 Interviewer: “That’s good, that’s good, so you retired from baseball and finally from softball. Did you continue working at the bank during that time?” I left the bank in 1962 and I went to work for the Chicago police department as a fingerprint technician. I was working at first National Bank in downtown Chicago and there was an ad in the paper for people to apply for a position with the Chicago police department, so I went to the address and as long as I was a Chicagoan and I worked thirteen years in a group—I didn’t realize that was city hall’s address and I picked up an application for the job, filled it out and later I got a postcard to report to a high school where they were running tests. Ten thousand people took the exams at four different high schools in Chicago, so I took the exam on a Saturday morning and a month later I got a card saying that I had passed the test and that I was chosen to be one of twenty-five people that would go to the police academy to be trained. 41:44 I went to the police 12 �academy, we had to go to the board of health for a physical exam and they had a policeman, two policemen train us in how to read and classify fingerprints and after six weeks at the academy we went to the first district headquarters where the records were and we started classifying and searching fingerprints and I worked there twenty eight years until I retired. 42:15 Interviewer: “Did you crack any big cases?” I wound up as supervisor and I worked nights from eleven thirty at night until seven thirty in the morning because that worked out the best with my children and I didn’t have to worry about a housekeeper because I was home all day. I slept from six until ten at night and to this day I can get along on four hours sleep. Interviewer: “It’s what you get use to I guess.” Yes, I identified a lot of fingerprints on big cases, but nothing spectacular, but my boss was a great guy. I was lucky—in baseball and in my jobs, I had great bosses. At the bank I had a boss that loved sports and at the police department I had a great Lieutenant who became a Captain and then became a commander of a district and he was a fingerprint expert. I don’t know if you ever remember reading in the paper where a fella killed a bunch of nurses—Wayne Gacy—no, Richard Speck—well, my Lieutenant went out to the scene and he lifted a fingerprint form the outside window where Speck had tried to get in—came downtown to our files and manually searched the files and he had found Richard Speck’s fingerprint card. 43:48 At the same time someone called from the Cook county Hospital where Richard Speck had gone for treatment because he got hurt. I don’t know if it was an intern or a doctor that recognized him back from the all wanted and called the police. At the same time my Lieutenant was going to his office to notify them 44:17 Interviewer: “They matched them up and they had him. I do remember that case.” He was the greatest—when I first got on the job, I was still married to my first husband and I had marital problems and I had to get off of nights and work days, so he was a Lieutenant at the time and when I asked him he said, “well, I can’t do that”. We worked civil service and you couldn’t play favorites, so I said, “well, I’ll have to resign”, so he explained to be and he said, “well, if you resign get your name reinstated on the civil service list and when there’s an opening we give a call and you can turn it down twice. The third time, your name comes off the list”, so I got called twice and the third time he called me I had already separated from my first husband and I made arrangements for someone to take care of the kids. They came over and slept nights and I said, “If I can come back nights, I’ll come back”, and he said, “Well, I can guarantee you six months”. Well, six months came and went and I stayed for another twenty-four years. 45: 40 I got remarried, Commander Degee retired and I went to his retirement party with my new husband and after all the speeches he came over to our table and he said to me, “are your six months up yet?” 13 �Interviewer: “He remembered.” Yea, I introduced him to my husband and he sat down and talked to us for about a half hour and it was great. Interviewer: “That’s great. It’s nice to be in those situations where you have that good relationship.” 46:14 I can’t understand how people can gripe about their jobs. Interviewer: “You had good ones and that’s a good thing. I want to ask you a few things about after your playing days. Did people know you played in the league?” When I coached the girls at church, I use to say, “when I played ball”, and it was no big deal—you know how kids are. Two of my brothers were real proud of me. The companies they worked for had magazines that came out monthly and they were always putting in stories about their kid sister and the neighborhood—I had the newspapers from Grand Rapids sent home and as soon as my mother got them she went to the butcher shop and showed them to the guy at the butcher shop and she showed them to the guy over at the Kroger store, so when I would come home in the fall and go shopping for her they would say, “tell us about this game. Your mother showed us the paper”, but outside of that, not too much. A few times when I would be going out on a date with somebody from the bank one of the guys would say, “hey, watch out for her, she throws a mean fastball “, and they would look like, “what’s he talking about?” 47:31 I didn’t want to get into it , so I just let it go. It wasn’t until we got accepted at the Hall of Fame that more people found out about it, neighborhood papers ran stories and then after the movie came out, I had moved from Chicago down to Hot Spring Village Arkansas, so the movie came out and all of a sudden it’s playing on television and people from my church would call me up all hours whenever that movie was on. “Your movie is on”, they would say and hang up. 48:18 Interviewer: “It’s nice to be recognized though and remembered.” A couple of months ago, in July in fact, there’s a fella that lives in the village, he played in the negro league, so one of the reporters for the village paper interviewed him and he said to Bill, “how does it feel to be an ex major leaguer?” Bill talked to him and he said, “you know you got a woman here that played in the girls league”, so this fella called me up and he said, “Bill McCreary told me all about you and I would like to interview you”, and I said, “Jeff, they’ve had my story in the paper three times in the past. I’ve been here nineteen years and people are tired of reading it.” 49:04 He said, “I’ve been here seven years and I never saw your story. I want to do it”, so he did a nice interview and gave me a DVD and a VHS tape, the whole shot. My State Farm insurance agent cut the articles out and put them in a folder and laminated them. On the front it says, WE SAW YOU WERE IN THE NEWS—real nice. I go to the store and people say, “You’re the ball player”. It works to the good. We have a community near us where three hundred people got laid off. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Weyerhaeuser Corporation, the timber company. 14 �Interviewer: “I certainly am.” 49:47 They laid off three hundred people. They closed down their operation in Mount Pine, so I wanted to do something to help and I was talking to Jane Moffet, one of our ball players, and Jane said, “why don’t you ask the girls to send you gift cards to Wal Mart?” So she spread the word and the girls helped out. I have one daughter that was working selling radio advertising, she called me up and said, “Ma, I got a two hundred and fifty dollar bonus check”, and I said, “good, send it to me, I need it for Mount Pine”. She sent it to me—I raised three thousand dollars, gave out gift certificates and the people that didn’t show to pick them up—we went to Wal Mart and bought food and a fella from the food pantry came with his trailer and picked it all up, so people in the village read the article that I was doing this and they helped by sending me gift cards in the mail. “Here’s another gift card for you from Wal Mart”. 50:49 I’ve heard that people go to Wal Mart for everything. They can get gas, they can get food, and they can get medicine, so we gave out Wal Mart gift cards. It worked out real good. Interviewer: “It didn’t hurt at all that you had some recognition to lend to it.” This time I bought ten baseballs and I had as many girls as I could find sign them and I’ll auction them off when I get back and raise money for the food pantry when I get home. It works out and it helps to have a little publicity once in a while. 51:20 Interviewer: “It does if you use it properly. That’s the key to the whole thing too. Do you enjoy getting recognized?” I use to be kind of--, but now it’s old shoe. Maybe it’s because I’m old. Interviewer: “do you get cards or letters from young girls once and a while?” Yeah, I got a box full. I’ve been saving them since I moved to the village. I had a bunch in Chicago, but you know when you move you get rid of a lot of stuff. 51:51 Since I’m living down there, and that’s nineteen years now, I started saving them and on the envelope I write that I replied and the date. I got a request from Germany for a picture, baseball card and what not, so I had to go to the post office for something and I said to fella, “how much does it cost to send something to Germany?” He said, “What are you mailing?” I said, “maybe something like a birthday card and some pictures”, and he said, “three dollars and something”, and I said “ok”. If they don’t send me a stamped envelope, I don’t send it back because that could get kind of costly. 52:39 I got cards from people saying, “will you please sign these two blank cards”. I don’t sign anything blank. I sign a baseball card, one card, and send it back to them. A lot of them buy our cards and send them to us. They send us three cards, they bought them, fine, and I’ll sign them and send them back. They have a son or a daughter and that’s fine. 53:05 Interviewer: “Those that want the blank cards, they’re buying and selling autographs.” We were advised not to sign anything blank. Interviewer: “I’ve heard that from people in sports and all over, don’t sign the blank ones.” 15 �We get requests from different outfits. There’s some catholic school, I think it’s up in Maine or Connecticut and they had a friend who knew a girl ball player and she donated a couple of pictures and they auction them off to raise money, so he got a hold of our addresses, I don’t know how and asked of we had any memorabilia we could donate for auction. Every once and a while we get something like that and I check it out and call them up. 53:57 If they don’t leave their number, I call up the chamber of commerce in their city and check them out, but usually they’re on the up and up. Interviewer: ‘When you look back, what do you see, the league you played in and all of that, do you see it as part of the changing perspective that our country has about the role of women in society? In other words, were you a pioneer?” Yeah, looking back we were pioneers, because it was an awful long time after our league folded before any women got any recognition in sports, so in our own way we were pioneers, but like they will all tell you, we would have done it for nothing. We got paid for doing something we loved. 55:00 That’s why we have a hard time assimilating with sports figures today, but it’s just the way things are. They won’t let women play in the major leagues, but I for one can understand it. I don’t think women should try to compete against men. You might have a woman that’s five ft. seven and a hundred and seventy pounds, muscular and all that and you have a guy that’s five ft. six and one hundred and fifty pounds playing short stop, but there’s a different mentality, there’s a different physical structure completely and I was always against teams touring and playing against men’s teams. It’s not right. 55:53 If they could have a league, like they’re starting all these baseball leagues now, women play against women—that’s beautiful. That’s the way it should be and there’s a place for women in sports and it is not competing with men. If you’re going to compete with men in baseball then let’s— you know when a woman has a baby and the guys say, “there’s nothing to it” and we say, “Well, why don’t you try carrying one?” “Be reasonable, he’s built different than you honey”. Don’t try to compete with them on that and don’t even try to make a comparison. I feel the same way about sports, there are sports for women, women golfers, women tennis players, women swimmers, basketball, fine, but play against women. 56:43 Show your competition the way it should be shown. Interviewer: “It seems to make a lot of sense. To me it does. Interviewer: Any of you guys think of something else? I would like to know more about the Grand Rapids championship season. They actually did win the championship in 1953. Was that season any different than any other or did you just get lucky?” 57:12 I think we just played harder. If I remember right, we had a lot of injuries in 1953. I don’t know if Corky Olinger was back, I know that she had broken her ankle—we had a lot of injuries in 1953, but everybody was clicking as a team, plus woody was a great manager. 16 �Interviewer: “How did you do when he flew you out to Rockford?” Good. Interviewer: “You were ready to pitch the next day.” Yeah. I got a lot of ribbing about it, teacher pet and all that good stuff. Interviewer: “If you win the game, that’s what matters.” Interviewer: “Thank you very much.” 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MCaden Title A name given to the resource Caden , Mary Lou (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Caden, Mary Lou Description An account of the resource Mary Lou Caden (née Studnicka) was born in Oak Lawn, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. She grew up in the Oak Lawn area and started playing softball with the neighborhood kids and transitioned to playing for local teams. She played as a short-stop in her amateur career and eventually was contacted by Mitch Skupien in 1950 to play for the Grand Rapids Chicks. She played for the Grand Rapids Chicks from 1951 to 1953 when she was traded to Fort Wayne and due to a pay cut decided to quit baseball and return to her job for National City Bank. During her time with them she played positions such as pitcher and second base. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Olson, Gordon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/490e1497047331e64d3437312e50baae.m4v 927e1623046c85ddc5c33a69177edc9a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c7dfc7381049ee5a58128fc11b5ebdd3.pdf 15cb008424c9d04bd19243d22c5f4fd6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girl’s Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Maybelle Blair Length of Interview: (00:38:58) Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 8, 2010 Born: 1917 Longvale, CA Resides: Palm Desert, CA Interviewer: “ Maybelle, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. To start with, where were you born?” I was born in Longvale, California, which is right next to the LAX Airport. Interviewer: “What year was that?” 1927 Interviewer: “Wow, you would never know.” Absolutely not. Interviewer: “At that point, what did your family do for a living?” My father was in charge of a park in Englewood, California. He started it off with the CC Camp and he was very fortunate to get the job and my mother was a housewife. 1:01 Interviewer: “How many kids were in the family?” Two. Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep his job through the thirties?” Yes, absolutely, that’s what saved us because we did go through the depression and we were very, very, very poor. Interviewer: “At what point did you start playing organized sports or even disorganized sports?” Oh, probably when I was about nine years old, because my brother, whom I worshiped and was seven years older than I, loved baseball, so naturally, guess what? Little sister was right behind him and followed him every step of the way and he would tell me to go home, but when the boys needed to have somebody at their batting practice, that was the 1 �time that I could play and I could go and shag the balls, which was very fortunate, I thought.. 1:49 Interviewer: “Did you play in pick-up games and things like that too? Did they let you play at some point?” Oh yeah, when they needed an extra person, guess who got to play and out in right field naturally, but at the time it was fun though. Interviewer: “How did that translate into your playing organized softball? When did you start that?” I started probably playing organized softball, probably in 1942. We had little industrial teams or local teams that they had, I joined that and that was a lot of fun when I was still in—actually grade school I guess. 2:31 Interviewer: “How old were you, do you think, when you started?” Probably twelve. Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position?” Yes, second base. Interviewer: “Could you turn a good double play?” Oh my, they would hire me today if I was able, but I loved every minute of it, it was a lot of fun and the double play was great. Interviewer: “At this point, whom were you playing against?” Just little local teams, like some market or some department store or something like that. We had little leagues. 3:06 Interviewer: “How would you get to the games?” My father would take me and my brother would go along begrudgingly because he didn’t want to see sister play, it was boring. Interviewer: “Now, at some point do you move up a level in terms of the league that you’re playing in?” Yes, they started opening up a real good semi-pro league in Burbank, California and I was able to go and play in that league. I was real fortunate to be able to do that and that was quite exciting for me. Interviewer: “What year did that start up for you?” Probably 1942 or 43, right in there. Interviewer: “So it was about the same time that the All American Girls League was forming up in Chicago.” 2 �Right, I was still in high school and that’s when that took place. Interviewer: “Were most of the people that were playing in this league about your age or were they older?” Some of them were older, the ones that took off to play in the all American and there were some that were a little younger, both ways, but I was probably one of the youngest. 4:15 Interviewer: “Now you’re playing with this league, how far a field would you travel to play your games now, still local?” All over, and then I started playing with the Pasadena Ramblers and that was a traveling league during the war and we use to go and play the service men and all over the place. We went to San Diego, we went to northern California to all of the forts and all the bases and that was quite a lot of fun because the guy’s got a big kick out of it and we really got a kick out of it and that’s what we actually did, we went to play them and they had planned a trip for us to go overseas to play the teams and at that time the war had picked up and they said no, that it would be too dangerous for us to go, so we stayed home. 5:01 Interviewer: “How does it work? You arrange that you’re going to an army base or a navy base or someplace, how do they orchestrate that and look after you?” What they would do was, they would send a bus after us wherever we were or hire a Greyhound bus or there was another bus line, but I can’t remember what it was at that particular time, and they would charter that for us and take us down. We would go into the barracks where the women were and we would get dressed and all that we had to prepare for and after our ball games they would feed us dinner and the bus would take us home. Interviewer: “Were you playing men’s teams or women’s teams?” Men’s teams, they were all men’s teams. 5:45 Interviewer: “How did the male players react to that?” Well, they couldn’t believe it, that we could beat them. They thought, “oh god we’ll kill these women”, but they couldn’t beat us because they weren’t professional ball players, I mean good ball players, some of them were good ball players, but we would just cream them and when we did, they couldn’t believe it. Everybody in the stands, all the rest of the soldiers or navy or sailors or what have you, would just scream and holler at them, “you sissy, you can’t catch”, you know it was really fun. 6:18 Interviewer: “Now, the All American Girls Baseball League, they had their skirts and all this kind of stuff. What kind of uniforms did you have?” We just had shorts and a top and pants also. It was generally satin in those days that we all wore and that was a lot of fun. 3 �Interviewer: “It was better for sliding into base.” Absolutely, you would get strawberries and that didn’t feel too good. Interviewer: “Did you would still get strawberries even with the satin?” Absolutely, they even had little sliding slides that we had. They had it. Interviewer: “Now was the softball played with a sort of regulation size baseball field or a smaller field?” A regular softball field, and don’t ask me the size of the bases because I can’t remember that far. 7:04 Interviewer: “Are the distances a little bit shorter than baseball or longer?” Much shorter. Interviewer: “So in that way it was similar to what the All American Girls League was when they started out, when they played shorter dimensions.” Absolutely. Interviewer: “Now, in softball were you a good hitter?” A very good hitter and that was one of my strong points. I was a good hitter and I had a strong arm. Interviewer: “As a hitter did you hit line drives or long flies?” Line drives and I could whack the heck out of that thing and it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. Interviewer: “When you were with the Pasadena Ramblers, what was the farthest away from home you traveled?” Probably three hundred miles, north California and San Diego from Los Angeles. Interviewer: “They weren’t sending you out into the Midwest or anything like that?” No, no, no, just the California area, but we hit from northern to southern. Interviewer: “As you were doing this, did you have any kind of regular job at the same time or was the team your job?” I was in high school. 8:15 4 �Interviewer: “You were in high school and were you mostly playing in the summer when you sere out of school or would they take you out of school to go on these trips?” It was during the summertime, during our summer vacation. My mother wouldn’t let me out of school, period, no matter how I begged. Interviewer: “Now, how long were you playing in that league?” I was probably there until 1946 or 1947 when the scout saw me, the Chicago scout saw me and wanted me to come and play professional softball in Chicago. 8:51 Interviewer: “So there is professional softball in Chicago, was there a league up there?” Oh yes, a wonderful league up there, a strictly softball league and we played in the Chicago area and it was the best part of my life. Interviewer: “They were scouting the California league you were in, so the scout says, “you want to come up and play?” did you have to go and clear it with your parents?” Oh, are you kidding, that poor guy went through the fifth degree I’ll tell you, I felt sorry for him. My mother was just a---every question she could think of and he promised and promised to take good care of me and all I would have to do is put me on the train and he would pick me up at the other end. 9:41 I would have to write home so often or call home and that was guaranteed and he saw to it that I did. Interviewer: “Had you ever taken a long train trip like that before?” The first time in my life, I couldn’t hardly go to Englewood, California we were so poor, we didn’t have any money, so that was my very first trip outside of California. Interviewer: “Do you remember how long it took?” Probably a day and a half or two days on a train, I can’t remember, but it was exciting. 10:14 Interviewer: “When you got up to Chicago, what did they do with you?” Well, they met me at the train and they took me to a hotel and I was scared to death because I was there all by myself and I had never been by myself, so I pushed the dresser up against the wall and got me four baseballs and a bat and dared anybody to come in my room. It was really something, I was scared to death and I called my mother and she said, “I can’t afford this, get off the line”, so I had to cut the conversation pretty close, but oh my god I was scared. 10:49 I told them, “I can’t do this any longer, I can’t sleep, I can’t do anything”, so two days later I got my roommate in from Missouri, a gal, and we 5 �became very, very good friends and I was thrilled to death when she came, so she was my roommate during that period. 11:09 Interviewer: “Was there a specific team that you were assigned to then?” My assignment was with the Chicago Cardinals and it was a nice team and we had a real good team. Interviewer: “Now, did each team have their own home park or were their certain parks that everyone played in?” Everybody had their home park. Interviewer: “What was yours?” Except for our, that was the only on that didn’t, excuse me. We played at Bidwell Stadium and Bluebird Park, which Charlie Bidwell owned and his son now runs the Chicago Cardinals and there were several others. Interviewer: “They are the Arizona Cardinals these days.” Yes, the Arizona Cardinals, excuse me. 11:57 Interviewer: “There was a Chicago Cardinals football team.” Well, that’s the same one. They came out here and are now the Arizona Cardinals and that’s what he owned. Interviewer: “Did they pay you much of anything?” Oh yeah, I was rich, I made sixty dollars a week and my gosh, I had money that wouldn’t end. I was going to save it and go to college like a lot of us tried to do and I sent some home to my mother. I was a rich girl because the hotel room was only seven dollars a week at that time. 12:24 Interviewer: “What did they do in terms of chaperoning you or were you just on your own?” Out manager was responsible for us, he and his coaches, and they watched out for us. They did watch me very closely I’ll tell you, I was bad, I was bad. Interviewer: “Did you get yourself in trouble?” I was always in trouble having a good time that was my problem. I loved everybody. Interviewer: “What were the games like in this league?” 6 �They were wonderful, absolutely wonderful and we had some fantastic ball players like you see the Olympic teams today, that’s how our softball teams played ball exactly. Interviewer: “Was it a higher level of ball than you played in California or close?” Pretty close, but it was a higher level because they took the best ball players from each of the teams because they would scout and take them back to Chicago and that’s what happened. 13:26 Interviewer: “You’re playing and how long did you play for them?” I played there in 1947 and in the latter part of 1948 is when I hurt my legs and I couldn’t move and that’s when I was signed by Max Carey to go and play in the All American League. Interviewer: “All right, explain how that happened.” Oh god, like I said, I was at Parache Stadium and I was out showing off thinking---I was a show off for some reason and I could never understand that, but anyway, I pretended I was a major league pitcher out there throwing the softball and I could throw a curve and I had a good arm, so after I through showing off this guy comes up to me and said, “Maybelle would you mind coming over here I want to talk to you for a minute”, and I said, “no, of course not” and I went wobbling over and he said, “how would you like to go and play for the All American?” I thought for about two seconds and I said, “sure why not, I can’t do anything, but I don’t want to play anything but pitcher”, and he said, “that’s what I want you for”, and I thought, “pitcher, I never played pitcher before, but I’ll go”. 14:36 Well anyway, they signed me and I got in my car, I had a car at that time because I had saved my money, and I drove down to Peoria and they got me a hotel and I had a horrible toothache and these two little girls that were great fans went out and got me some toothache medicine and saved my life and anyway to make a long story short, I started pitching. 15:09 I was there for maybe a month and first of all he had me go out—he called me into the game, “Hey Maybelle come in and pitch”, and I said, “oh”, and here I come dizzy Dean herself is walking out there, so I was out there and somebody was on first base, I don’t know who it was, but I think it was Sophie Kurys. I wound up I’ll tell you, I wound up for forty minutes and by the time I got through unwinding that runner was on third base you know not knowing I forgot all about it that I had a runner on and that was the fun of it, I had a lot of fun. 15:49 They started bunting me because they found out I couldn’t move. Interviewer: “Ok, sort out your baseball career a little bit. How long were you with the team before they put you in, was it a month?” It was actually about a week and a half before he put me in and he kept me around for courtesy’s sake I guess for another couple weeks and then he called me in his office and he said, “I hate to have to tell you this, but I’m going to have to release you, but would you please come back next year when your legs are well because we can certainly use you.” 16.27 7 �Interviewer: “So he liked your arm anyway?” Oh yeah, I got a good arm still today. Interviewer: “When you were working out with them, before he had actually put you in the game, did they know you couldn’t run?” No, because I didn’t practice like I was running, I didn’t let them know. I kept it a secret all to myself. Interviewer: “So in the game, when you were playing, did someone try bunting on you to see what would happen?” Well yeah, exactly, because the rumor had gotten through because we had interaction between the leagues because when we were off we would go and visit the other kids and they said, “she can’t run so start bunting for god sake, she can’t move”, which was true. 17:12 Interviewer: “How did you hurt your legs?” Running. And I didn’t tell him and I was hobbling around there and could hardly run and for some ungodly reason the other leg was pulled and I cannot understand how I got two charlie horses, but I kept those babies for a long time, even after I came home it took quite a while to get rid of it. When I got home from playing ball I was hired by Northrop Aircraft. I wanted to go back and play again, but I had such a good opportunity that I couldn’t do it. This fellow I met was in charge of all traffic at Northrop Aircraft and he said, “I want you to come in, learn the job and I want you to be supervisor in transportation”, and I said, “oh come on, get off of it, I can’t do that”. I told him that and he said, “you have the personality for it, I need to get you in here to get these drivers in order”, and I said, “no, no, no”, anyway I finally decided to do it and I said, “the only way I will do it is if I can learn to drive every piece of equipment we have because I do not want to hear them razzing me or giving me a hard time that you picked the wrong person. 18:27 Anyway, he did and I worked my way up from courier hauling VIP’s all over like generals and presidents, heads of states and what have you all around, to dispatcher and I went on to be supervisor and then I became manager of all highway transportation for Northrop Aircraft. Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about that courier job. Who were you driving around?” Big time—heads of state from all over the world because at that time we were building the F5 Fighter and we were trying to sell it, so we were selling it to all the different countries for their fleet or air force and I hauled lots of very important people. In fact, Ronald Reagan was one of them and to this day I was thrilled to death about that. He was Governor of the state at that particular time. 19:27 8 �Interviewer: “Were their other individuals whose names stood out as being particularly interesting or unusual people?” Oh sure, General Whitehead who was the head of the Pacific, and what was his name—I loved him, but several of them and I can’t remember right now. Korean generals and it was quite an experience for me. Interviewer: “Were you going into jobs that normally men had been doing?” Yes absolutely, it was all men and then when I became currier there were two couriers ahead of me and both girls. W wore one of those uniforms and I thought I was real cute. I was uglier than sin, but I thought I was cute. Anyway, that’s what we did and that was the only girls in the department and then I went on, like I told you, and became head of the department and one of my jobs was planning routes for the F18 aircraft to get it from Hawthorn Air Force Base to---from Northrop Field to Edwards Air Force Base. 20:45 I would have to go our and survey all of that—take down signs, trees, everything else because we had to get it there because that was going to be our future the F18, so luckily that was a real job and I got that sucker down there. One time when we were going through downtown L.A. because it’s got the wings on it, and this drunk comes staggering out of a bar in downtown Los Angeles he looked and the wing was practically going over his head and he went like this and turned around and went right back into the bar. He wasn’t seeing pink elephants he was just seeing airplanes. I can imagine what he went back in and told them. 21:31 When I got to Edwards Air Force Base it was so exciting because they had laid out the red carpet for me and after we stopped the aircraft and all the people got out, they were playing “off we go into the wild blue yonder”, and I got out of the truck and I couldn’t stand up, I was so weak I fell almost down on my knees, but they caught me, I was so excited, it was quite an honor. Interviewer: “Did you encounter any friction being a woman and going into these positions and telling men what to do?” At first I did, but the problem was is that I knew it very well and I knew what I was talking about and they couldn’t argue with me or try to pull the wool over my eyes and they soon learned that they couldn’t do that to me. I was fair, but I was strict. 22:17 Interviewer: “So the fellow that hired you knew what he was doing.” Apparently, I guess so and also, I planned the route for the B2 Bomber, so I was happy about that too. Interviewer: “Did you have to move that along surface streets too?” Oh yeah, not the whole bomber, but just the cockpit area. Interviewer: “But not the whole thing.” 9 �Oh no you couldn’t. Up at Palmdale they built the wings, but we built the cockpit at our facility and that was great too. I have to tell you too that I played for the New Orleans Jacks, the world’s champions. Interviewer: “Now when were you doing that?” I can’t remember what year that was, but it was while I was working at Northrop. I told my boss at the time, I said, “I have to have a whole month or so off because they are asking me and pleading with me to come and play for them”. I said, “Ok?” he said, “Ok”, so he gave me a month off. 23:11 Interviewer: “How did you get the invitation to play for New Orleans?” Well, they new about me playing back there and they were out here and they needed another ball player desperately, so I said, “ok” and I went and that was fun. Interviewer: “Did you play second base for them?” Second base. Interviewer: “Then where did you go when you were playing with them?” Oh, up through Canada, all through Washington, Oregon, Arizona and California. Interviewer: “Now, was this a point after the All American League had folded?” Yes that was, I would say that was probably down at about 1950 or 1951 maybe and I may be wrong there. 23:55 Interviewer: “It could be, in 50 and 51 the league was still going at that point wasn’t it?” Oh yeah, the league was still going, but I didn’t have time to go back and play ball, I couldn’t do that because I would lose my job and that was more important. Interviewer. “You could take the month and go with New Orleans?” Yes, they each gave me a month. Interviewer: “So you had a chance to go back and play a little bit after the injury?” Yeah, I did and that was fun. Interviewer: “Now, on that particular tour, what kind of crowds did you get?” Oh, fantastic, in fact we stopped at Bakersfield and played the world champion men’s baseball team and we had two sisters on the team known as the Savodas—the best baseball players or softball players or ball players I have ever seen in my life. During batting practice they, both of them, could take batting practice and hit it over the fence 10 �left handed and right handed, no problem, run like deer and throw—you cannot imagine how great they were, the two best ball players that ever lived. 24:52 Interviewer: “You played a men’s championship team, was that a championship softball team?” Softball team yeah. Interviewer: “So you weren’t playing the New York Yankees or something?” No, but during that game that we played them, the men had to pitch from the men’s league and the women pitched from out league distance to the plate and our pitcher was named Lotty Jackson and she stood about six one or two and she had a wind up that you couldn’t even see the ball. Ginny Finch today, I don’t think Ginny Finch is as fast as was this girl and these guys couldn’t hit her and it was so funny, we couldn’t hit him either, let’s face it, anyway he walked me somehow, I probably stood there with my bat on my shoulder and he couldn’t hit the plate, anyway, I somehow got over to third base and this manager we had, Freda Sevoda one of the Sevoda sisters, she said, “pretend like you can’t run”, and I said, “I can run”, and she said, “no, pretend like you can’t run”, and I said, “ok”. 26:00 She took over and what she noticed—we beat these guys and what happened was that the catcher, when he would get the ball sometimes, he would walk to almost where the pitcher was and give him this (a sign) and he would slowly start walking back to the plate, She noticed, that’s how smart she was, well he went out there and he gave a little pitch to the pitcher and she took off like a jack rabbit and slid right under him and we won one to nothing and I think there were eight thousand people out there for that game and they just hoot and hollered and that was really something. 26:35 I never was so tickled in my life. Interviewer: “Did they make any effort to get you to stay on?” They wanted us to come back and play, but we had a schedule and we couldn’t do it and the league didn’t like that at all, not at all Interviewer: “Was that the last time you were playing on organized ball?” Yes, that was the very last time and then I decided to hang it up. Interviewer: “Now, when you were working at Northrop etc., did people know anything about what you had done in the past in these different leagues and things?” During that time they didn’t know because the movie is what made it, if it wasn’t for the movie you wouldn’t have known about the All American Girls, you wouldn’t have known about the professional softball league because actually, they could have taken the softball league instead of the all Americans and made the same movie, but they didn’t, but people didn’t realize that there was two leagues or even one league, especially the western people, the Midwest knew it and in Chicago they knew it, but that was it, the 11 �south didn’t know it, nobody knew it until Penny Marshall decided to make the movie. 27:54 Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooked up with this organization that you played on one team for a short length of time?” They made the movie and they asked me to come and be in the movie, so I was in it when the old timers were at the end and what have you and that was the reason. Interviewer: “Did you know a number of the people who were in the league?” Oh yes, because I played softball with them and baseball and what have you. I have known quite a few of them for years. Interviewer: “At the time you were doing all these things, playing in these leagues or for that matter going into some of your jobs at Northrop, did you see yourself as a pioneer or were you just taking care of yourself?” Nobody did, nobody did until after the movie again. The movie was the making of everybody and even when you mention that you played in the all American or the National league they don’t know what you’re talking about and could care less, now they care, it’s amazing. 29:00 Interviewer: “What do you think of sort of the state of women’s sports today? Do you see yourself as being part of a larger trend?” I think it’s the most wonderful thing in the world, it has given all the girls the opportunity of scholarships, it’s not that they’re going to be great professional athletes, but it gives them the opportunity to go to college and that’s what I’m thrilled about. It gives the girls the opportunity to take the right step in their lives, whichever step that is. They have a choice. And thank God that happened; we’re so thrilled about it. 29:33 Before it was the good old boys and let’s face it, all we were supposed to do is stay home and put on our aprons and have kids. Interviewer: “How do you think your life would have gone if you hadn’t hooked up with organized softball?” What would have happened? I would have probably gone on to college and become a PE teacher. That’s exactly what I would have done. That was my goal in life because I didn’t think there was any chance to go and play professional softball or baseball, but it was there and gosh, how lucky we were, how lucky we were. Interviewer: “Is that what gave you the connections that enabled you to go into Northrop? Did these people know you from that?” No, no, I was in a function or something—I think I was giving a speech—I don’t know what in the world I was doing, anyway he came up to me and he said, “I need you”, and I 12 �said, “what do you mean you need me?” He said, “I’m da, da, da, da, and I want you to come to work at Northrop”, and I said, “well, I’m going to go to college”, and he said, “no, I want you to come to Northrop because I’m going to give you a good job and I’m going to open the door for you”, so maybe he saw something that maybe he thought I was a leader or something, that’s what I thought. 30:54 Interviewer: “If you were at a function and giving a speech, was this somehow in conjunction with what you had been doing already?” No, no I don’t know what the heck I was giving the speech about, I was giving a speech about—heck, I can’t remember what it was, but I was giving a little speech. I don’t know what it was, maybe about going to college—that’s what it was, I was going to go to college and what my career was going to be and what I was going to become, I think that was it. 31:19 Interviewer: “How do you think your time in these organized leagues affect you or change you? Did you grow up some because of this or learn things—that whole experience of going out to Chicago and all of that?” Yeah, it taught me a great deal because I had never even been away from my mother overnight to a girls party or sleep out or go anywhere to visit anybody, that was the first time and I learned a great deal and it was quite exciting and when they say they put the ropes around the suitcases, well I had ropes around my suitcase and I took off. 31:55 Gosh, I thought I was in hog heaven when I landed in Chicago and they picked me up. The buildings wow. Interviewer: “Although there was that part there where you had to barricade yourself in the hotel room when you got there, but the young woman who did that is not the same person exactly that the fellow from Northrop spotted and said, “I need you”, so something happened between there.” Well that was a learning process, absolutely a learning process and It’s not as easy as you think, I figured it out and when I went to Northrop I realized that if I really wanted to make it, I had to devote myself to it and quit being a kid anymore and quit fooling around. I still fool around, but anyway that’s the way it is. 32:43 Interviewer: “Well, it makes for a very good story and thanks for coming in and telling it to me today.” Hey, I hope you appreciate it. 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MBlair Title A name given to the resource Blair, Maybelle (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blair, Maybelle Description An account of the resource Maybelle Blair was born in 1927 in Longvale, California. Before joining the All American Girl's Baseball League she played baseball with her brothers at the age of nine and then later in 1942 at age twelve began playing organized softball. At about this time she played for a semi-pro league out of Burbank, California and then with the Pasadena Ramblers from 1943 to 1946 who she toured with playing games at army bases for servicemen. Her semi-pro career ended in 1947 when the Chicago Cardinals scouted her and signed her to be a pitcher. In 1948, Max Carey signed her to play on the Peoria Redwings as a pitcher. Due to an injured leg, her career was cut short and she only played a month with the Peoria Redwings. Later, she went on to play 2nd base for the New Orleans Jacks for a month in 1951. Her career ended with them ended when she was forced to choose between playing softball and giving up her job driving VIPs for Northrop Airport; she chose to quit softball. Blair wraps by mentioning how the All American Girls Professional Baseball League changed her perspective on the course of her life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/77dbc87293a6f2fa75f4caa7dd9e657a.m4v f551e738e9b37977900c2426821b7485 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a3e5546e8add0b8ee4b875f405a5e192.pdf 1d9e42aa8709f77334d199fe1ed23adc PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW LOIS YOUNGEN Women in Baseball Born: October 23, 1933 Resides: Eugene, Oregon Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 20010, Detroit, Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, December 9, 2010 Interviewer: “To begin with what is your full name and where and when were you born?” My full name is Lois Joy Youngen and I was born October 23, 1933 in a little town of one hundred people called Ragersville, Ohio. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” Full of activity, I had a wonderful childhood and my mother was an elementary schoolteacher, my father was a principal and subsequent superintendent of schools and he also was coach and he also was a varsity baseball player. So, I think maybe that’s where I got some of my ability. 45:03 Interviewer: “What was your school like? You said it was a small town, was it a small school?” We had moved to a little larger town where I started first grade. The first few grades were rather uneventful and by the time I hit the fourth grade we had moved because my father got a better job and it was about then that I started playing with all the neighborhood boys because there weren’t any girls in the neighborhood and if you wanted to play outside, and there’s no television remember, and other than reading books and trying to learn how to play the piano, which I didn’t do very well and they finally gave up on me, I played outside with the boys. 1 �Interviewer: “Give us an idea what the lot was like. What was your neighborhood like for example? Was it a big back lot? Was it a full diamond where you play baseball? What was it like?” 45:57 A yard and a back yard and then a little later on when we moved again and my father got a better job, we were in—all the houses were on one side of the street and across the road it was farmland, it was pasture field, so we took our paper bags and our one ball, you only had one ball and you reused it, and our bat which had copious amounts of, I guess it’s electrical tape, it’s black and it also had a screw and a bolt through it, but that was it and I remember that the boys weren’t too excited about my wanting to play, originally when we moved to this new town with the pasture field across the street. 46:40 Interviewer: “How old were you roughly?” Let’s see—probably ten, ten years old. Interviewer: “You’re the daughter of educators, small town, you’re playing the piano, but you don’t want to play, you’re reading, which is wonderful, and how did you hear about this boys’ baseball going on? How did you happen to get involved with that?” Well, there were a lot of boys in the neighborhood and they always just played ball over there, so I wandered over naturally. I was interested and I asked about playing and they said, “You can play right field or catch”, and being rather intelligent I said, “well, if I play right field at this age, no one will ever hit the ball to right field because when we choose up teams, which you often do in elementary school, the last person to be chosen is the one who gets to play right field”, so I said, “I’m going to learn how to catch.” I knew 2 �my dad was a baseball pitcher and if he could throw to me some, I could really become proficient as catcher. 47:44 Interviewer: “Did you have a glove?” At the time I don’t know if I had a glove or not, but I know my father was supportive, which is important, so we went out and bought me a glove. I don’t think it was a catcher’s glove originally. Later on I got the real thing, but I’m not quite sure. Interviewer: “So in the early days in elementary school, why baseball as opposed to anything else?” Well, we’re talking about the nineteen forties and individual sports were only for those elite families that had money and could have private lessons. There was no physical education in the schools during the forties, there was some extra, what would you call it? Varsity sports, there were some varsity sports floating around, but baseball was one of those things that every small town had a baseball team. That had maybe changed some, but I think there were enough remnants so you could play with a limited amount of space, a limited amount of equipment and still have a very good time. 48:48 All the small schools that I went to, there was no football, no track and field when you look out and soccer was something you played in PE, I think for fifty years before it caught on as being a really important kind of sport around the world, but maybe never will catch on in this country, we’ll see how that goes. Anyway, it was a remnant of a sport that everybody could play you could join in. Everybody had a little softball game at a reunion or at a picnic. You played softball, but this was baseball with a hardball that we threw overhand. 49:24 3 �Interviewer: “Did you have access to sports either by newspaper or radio? Did you know what was going on in the world of baseball?” I had a grandfather that kept his ear to the radio to listen to the Cleveland Indians games, so we had no television, but we did have radio and I think our family was always so busy trying to earn a living—we had gardens in the summer and I had odd jobs that I did and every kid had chores to do around the house. Some of my friends at that age, in elementary school, got an allowance and other students had to work and they were doled out certain amounts of money if they asked for it and that kind of thing. I’ve lost your question. 50:13 Interviewer: “You actually already answered it in terms of did you know about baseball from the outside.” Oh yeah, the radio and newspaper, yes, yes. Interviewer: “Did baseball from the very beginning or when did baseball become more important to you than just kind of playing?” Well, that’s an interesting question. That’s a very interesting question. By osmosis I suppose, I don’t know if I ever realized when. I got to the point where we gathered more boys to play on our team and then we started to call ourselves the “Town Team” and then we walked to other small towns five miles away, no soccer moms to take us anywhere, we took our one ball and our one bat and we would walk and we would play and then we would walk home. They would walk over and we would kind of pre determine, it was usually in the afternoon because we didn’t have jobs or anything and we were free to play, and I know that one summer, I think I probably was in junior high school by then and we did this for three or four years, and finally they came down, the boys, the team, 4 �came down to my house and they told me they didn’t want me on the team anymore because the other towns teams and kids were laughing at us because we had a girl on the team. 51:40 All I know is I think I suppressed that to the point where I don’t remember it, but my mother said, yes, I was there and I heard them ask you to do that, you were devastated she said, but it took them about a week before they came trudging back down and asked me to join them again because they had lost two games and they wanted me back on the team. I said, “well, that proves that winning is more important than having a girl on the team”, so then I sort of graduated from their team. The boys got older and we did have a varsity baseball team in that town and there were a couple of women’s softball teams in the larger cities, Wooster, Ohio and Ashland, Ohio, so in the summer the manager stopped by, I don’t know how they found out about me, but they came to me and asked if I would like to play. I didn’t know if I was good enough, but then I played softball with the Wooster, Ohio softball team for a year and then I played with Ashland probably two years. 52.42 Interviewer: “A couple questions between all this, what was your father’s and mother’s reaction to your playing baseball with the boys?” Nothing, I mean it wasn’t negative, and you know the research shows, all the early research shows, that the father is supportive and supportive of their daughter playing. There’s no problem and my father was always supportive and my mother probably didn’t disagree at all because she was a horsewoman in her early years and rode a lot and grew up on a farm and farm women had to help and get out in the field, so she knew what physical work was like. She was a little bitty woman, but she use to drive when they made hay and would drive the horses, so I don’t think she thought there was anything 5 �wrong with it and like I said, dad was supportive. They didn’t get to very many games, but they had other things to do, but I think they were supportive. 53:37 Interviewer: “So a scout of the softball team somehow heard about you and came along and said, “I understand you’re a pretty good ball player?” You played for a year or two years?” I played with the Wooster team one year and Ashland was closer and I think that was one of the reasons, I can’t think of any other good reason, why I went from one to the other. I went to play with Ashland and I was in high school by now, I was in high school. Interviewer: “And you were still a catcher?” I am still a catcher. Interviewer: “Do you have a catcher’s mitt now?” I have a catcher’s mitt now. Interviewer: “This is a more difficult question I know because you’re delving back quite a few years, but did you have any indication what so ever of what you wanted to do with your life at that point? Did you want to be a teacher like your parents?” 54:31 I always knew I would go to college, that was never a doubt. That was instilled in me from the beginning, I mean as long as my folks and I communicated about anything, I knew I would go to college, so I knew I had to do well in school, which I did, but I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do after I got there and what my major might be at the time. Interviewer: “Baseball isn’t even in the consideration because it’s something you’re doing because it’s fun?” 6 �Yes, doing it because it’s fun, yes, definitely. Fun, F U N, fun and winning too occasionally. Interviewer: “Did you feel like you were pretty good?” I don’t know, I don’t think I ever really—I don’t think I thought much about that. I was interested in the fact that we were a team and that every time we won the team won. As women, I don’t think we spent much time thinking about statistics and who hit the winning RBI that high. I think it was the team winning and we were interested in the game as a team game. 55:41 Interviewer: “Now, you’re in high school so your morning you go to school, you come back in the afternoon, when are you playing baseball?” Probably on a night, like a Friday night and we might be playing on a Sunday afternoon. Interviewer: “This is a neighborhood thing, so you got the bleachers full of locals and those people egging you on with rah, rah, rah?” It was the thing to do to, and here we’re talking about the nineteen forties and people didn’t have a lot of money and I think we were much before television was popular. You might have one or two people in town that had a television set. I remember going to visit somebody in 1948 and they had this snowy television set, but I think there wasn’t a lot to do. You could go to the movies, pay seventy-five cents and go to the movies, maybe it was a dollar by then, or you might go out and watch, I’m sure we weren’t the only softball team in Ashland, the men probably had one or two teams, and they still had businesses that sponsored men’s softball teams, so I still think in the nineteen forties softball was probably a pretty popular activity for a medium sized, we’re talking about twenty-five thousand people or twenty thousand people, something like that. 56:58 7 �Interviewer: “Can you remember, and how did you hear about Pearl Harbor?” I was sitting with my father in our den and we had one of those Zenith tall radios, you wouldn’t know about that, sorry, and it had a big round dial on it and so on. Interviewer: “I actually do know about that.” You do? I wasn’t going to—and we were in Ohio and it was in the morning, I’m sure it was in the morning, it was a Sunday morning, I don’t know if we had been to church and come home or we hadn’t gone yet, I can’t tell you the exact time, but my dad was listening, I don’t know when it got turned on or anything, but I heard my father call my mother in and they sat down and I think I kneeled, I don’t know if there was a chair there or an ottoman or sofa or something for me to sit on, but I get the impression I was kneeling down and cocking my head and listening and we heard Roosevelt come on the radio and talk about the date that would live in infamy. 58:10 From there on it sort of changed everything. Interviewer: “How did it change around your immediate world?” All the good teachers went off to work in the war plants, so there was a shortage of teachers and I don’t know if you know this, but maybe you do, but once a woman got married, in the nineteen thirties, she no longer could teach. Married women could not teach, so until World War II, married women were pretty much prohibited from teaching unless they had a special kind of certificate to do something, but in general married women, if the husband taught, the wife couldn’t teach. So, my dad came home and he was the principal of a fairly good size school, and he had been losing all his teachers— you could make five times as much—you know that’s still the way it is, you can make five times as much money doing something else as you can teaching. 59:13 Everybody 8 �was leaving to go to the was plants, so what happens is dad says, “Mom, you got to go back and teach third grade, or fourth grade, or fifth grade, but you got to get back in. They are dying for good teachers”, and my mother was a very good teacher, so she got geared up to go back and teach and those were the years when people only had one car or one truck, you didn’t have two. Our life changed immediately after we started in 1941 and we had war drives and war bond drives and we collected scrap metal and I know we had scrap medal. We had recesses where we got our physical activity and remember I’m a lot younger than I was from your previous question, but we didn’t have any organized teams during that time that I’m aware of. 00:07 I had a paper route and I needed some spending money, so after we lived there a couple of years I got a paper route in that small town. Interviewer: “When did you first hear about the league, The All American Girls Professional baseball League?” I’m not quite sure whether I read about it, and remember this is 1951, actually it’s 1950 when I first went to visit a cousin in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I don’t know when I heard about the league, but Fort Wayne had a team and I went to visit my first cousin that lived there, and she and her husband had two children at that time and they said to me, “would you like to go see the girls play baseball tonight?” Well, that’s a no brainer you know, YES, and I’m sitting there and I’m sixteen years old and we’re watching the game and Fort Wayne had quite good attendance in those years and I’m sitting there and we’re getting to the seventh or eighth inning and I have no idea who won the game or even played, all I did was I turned to my cousin and I said, “you know, I can do that”, just like that, right out of the blue. 1:24 That surprised even me because I don’t think the 9 �majority of women in that generation are terribly aggressive and I surprised myself by saying that, and by golly my cousin got on the phone that next morning about eleven o’clock I had a tryout with Max Carey, our manager, our hall of fame manager and least four other Daisies were there and he put me through the paces for about an hour and he said, when we were wrapping things up, “Lois, we will be in touch with you. We will contact you probably around the first of the year”, and this was probably in August or maybe July of the previous year, so I went back home and finished my junior year and started my senior year in high school. 2:25 Along about January third or fourth I got and invitation to come to spring training in Alexandria, Virginia, Fort Wayne Daisies. Interviewer: “What was your parents’ reaction?” I think they were both very positive about it. I remember my dad talking to my mom and saying, “well, she’s going to go off to college at the end of this year. She’ll have a chaperone and that’s more than she’ll have at college. We better send her off, it might be a good experience for her”, so they were kind of positive about it. 2:57 Interviewer: “I want to walk you through very carefully, with a lot of detail, what was the preparation to go, packing and the whole bit, what you’re thinking about while you’re going through this. I don’t want to just suddenly show up there, give us an idea of what it was like.” Well, first of all during those years, every senior class had been collecting money for fifteen years to go on a senior trip. We picked potatoes and we mowed lawns and we had car washes and you know, some of the same things they are doing today and we ended up with quite a bit of money, so our senior trip was planned to go to Washington D.C. Alexandria, Virginia is real close to Washington D.C., and I thought, “well, if I can plan 10 �this and work this out, I can go with the class trip on the train, I don’t know if I had been on a train before or not, I can’t remember, and we would go down—I think we left from Akron, Ohio, went through Youngtown, through Pittsburg, on down to Washington D.C., this was my thinking, and then I could go to Alexandria and the rest of the seniors were going to go to New York because they had all this extra money and they could go to New York and spend it freely in New York City for another four days or so before we had to go back to Ohio. 4:20 It was standard for every small high school in Ohio to take a senior trip, so I’m thinking, “maybe I can maneuver this so I can get to Washington, spend some time with my class, go see some of Washington D.C. and then get myself over to Alexandria, Virginia, which is just across the river”, so I’m thinking, “well, the first thing I have to do is I have to get out of school for about three weeks in addition to our senior class week”, so this is a big chunk and whether you believe this or not, you just didn’t get out of school. You had doctor’s appointments, dentist appointments, other kinds of appointments after school or on week-ends. You just weren’t allowed to walk off the school grounds. So I’m thinking, “how am I going to maneuver this?” I’m talking to my teachers and I got an ok from all of them except one and I talked to the superintendent and it was like getting special dispensation from the Pope to get away for four weeks. 5:23 I jumped through all the hoops that they could possibly put in front of me. I had one teacher that I had to send homework back to and I promised religiously that I would do that. Everybody else said, “go with our blessing, and make the team “, even the fellow I was going to the senior prom with said,” make sure you’re back here for the senior prom”. Anyway, so I arranged it with the Fort Wayne Daisies, Ernie Bird was their business manager and we wrote letters, we didn’t call back in those days, long 11 �distance phone calls cost a lot of money, so you wrote letter and I think they probably cost three cents for a stamp too, so we wrote back and forth and we made the arrangements that I would go spend some time with my senior class and then go over Alexandria for the tryout for the Fort Wayne Daisies. 6:12 So we got on the train, there are fifteen in my graduating class, nine boys and six girls, that’s a small town, and all I remember is all the mothers and fathers were there and you would think we were going to cyber space or someplace, and they gave us sandwiches, we had food, we had this long trip to go to Washington D.C., I think it took eighteen hours, it wasn’t that far away. Anyway, I remember eating sandwiches, we left like in late afternoon, and we went through Youngstown and Pittsburgh and all the Bessemer burners in the steel mills were going strong and it was an absolutely gorgeous site to see them lit up the way they were. That’s one of my vivid memories of taking that trip. The rest would be seeing the monuments in Washington D.C. and meeting with our local Senator or Representative and having our picture taken with them, which every small class does on their little sojourn to Washington D.C. Then they left and went over to New York City and I went over to Alexandria, Virginia. 7:20 This is where, and I don’t know if you want to include this, but you may know that Peanuts, Mamie ”Peanuts Johnson” had an article in the New York Times not too long ago, and she’s an African American woman, and we get asked this a lot if we speak to groups and so on, and since Jackie Robinson didn’t get into the majors until 1947 it was obvious that there was a problem with having African Americans in our particular league as well. Well, here we are in 1951 and according to Mamie, she came to Alexandria, Virginia during that time that I supposedly was there. I never saw her, but she indicated that she came, she came with another girl, another 12 �African American girl, and they wanted to try out and whoever the management was at the time that met them and talked to them, told them that there was no place for them in the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. 8:20 Now, the girls like myself, none of us that I have talked to ever have any interaction with them or knew that she had even come and we feel bad about that, but there wasn’t really anything we could do about it when we didn’t know about it, so that’s something that we have been thinking about and talking about some. Anyway, we never did have, to the best of my knowledge, any African American player in our league. So, back to what we did there, I got the opportunity, I’m not quite sure why, but I got picked out of the group to do some public relations things and we were supposed to play in Baltimore. 9:06 Interviewer: “Let me back you up a little bit. You got there for tryouts?” Yes, so I’m trying out. Interviewer: “Ok” I’m hitting, I’m running, and I’m throwing. Interviewer: “In the movie you get this idea, and I know it was in the very beginning of the league that you saw from the movie, but you walk out onto the field and there’s all these women out there, girls playing, is that similar to what happened with you?” I don’t remember, to be honest, but I don’t think so because there were two teams and the object in the 1951 spring training was to have two teams, the Battle Creek Belles and the Fort Wayne Daisies, all have spring training together and then you would play exhibition games around, I think it was Katie Horstman talking about being in North and South Carolina and so on. Well we played—we had an exhibition game scheduled in whatever 13 �the Baltimore Stadium was at the time and we also were supposed to play in Griffith Stadium. So this was part of—we practiced in Alexandria and we didn’t practice very long before we started playing, supposedly, exhibition games. 10:04 Interviewer: “You’re the new kid.” I know Interviewer: “what was that like?” I don’t remember very much about the tryouts. What I remember about it was that I whisked off to be on the radio and whisked off to meet with Maury Povich, he was the sports supreme or one of the major sports writers in the country at that particular time. I had my first glass of wine, don’t tell on me, at one of the lunches we got feted at you know. We were taken to lunch and I had a glass of Rosé and I have no idea who ordered it, but I didn’t, but I drank it and I think I enjoyed it. Interviewer: “You are very articulate and I would imagine, because of your educational background with your parents and what not, some of the girls may or may not been able to speak as well as you. If they are going to get you on the radio, you have to be able to talk and that’s probably what happened.” Well, we were trying to get them to come out to the games. I the idea we’re playing this exhibition, come out to the game. I do want to tell you about—we got rained out of Griffith Stadium, but the one picture I have, other than with Jimmie Fox who came later, is I have a picture of Clark Griffith, the grand old man of baseball, and myself standing next to him and another rookie I have never been able to find out, and then Max Carey. 11:25 The four of us are there and Max Carey has the handle of the baseball bat and Clark Griffith has the other end of it you know and I am there in my dress, you know 14 �dresses, we must wear our dresses, and it’s an 8x10 and it’s been chopped and cut and pasted, but it is my picture with Clark Griffith and Max Carey and it’s the only one I have. The interesting thing is, I made the team and the girl next to me didn’t and I don’t have any idea who she is, but that is, that’s my picture. 12:01 The second thing I want you to know, in the world, as far as that goes, is that we went, we were in Griffith Stadium and I go and take batting practice and I stood up there and I said, “Joe DiMaggio stood here”, and I’m standing there and I turned around on the other side and I said, “Ted Williams stood here”, and we didn’t get to play, we got rained out, but at least I had the opportunity to stand there in Griffith Stadium at home plate. I never thought about getting behind the mound like a catcher would. I was thinking about hitting for whatever reason and now that I think about it in retrospect, I didn’t think about getting down there and getting into a catchers position like Jim Hagen who caught for the Cleveland Indians. 12:41 Interviewer: “Now, by 1951 was there the—did you have to go through the charm school and all that kind of stuff?” It is interesting that you mention this. If you talk to groups of people, especially younger people, one of the things they want to know is, “was that charm school really for real?” I have to say, “yes, it really was in the early years”, and most of the gals that went through it thought it was worthwhile. They didn’t pooh pooh at it and they didn’t think it was terrible. I’m sure there were some that did, but the few that I’ve talked to thought they learned some valuable lessons going through the charm school.. I think that was Mrs. Wrigley’s idea in the first place. Interviewer: “What about you? By the time you got in?” 15 �This is what I tell my audiences, “by the time they got to 1951 they had given up on us”, so that’s my response. They were more interested in the ability of the players. Some of those were still maintained through the whole twelve years, but charm school was not one of the— 13:44 Interviewer: “What were some of the rules, the ground rules, when you started if charm school was not in there, what are some of the things they told you? This is what you have to do as a player.” We always wore a dress or a skirt when you went to the ballpark, when you were out in public; you were invited to a luncheon, home from the ballpark. You lived in private homes and usually there were two of us to a private home. I think there might have been some occasions over the years where there would be four. I’m looking forward to seeing my Blue Sox roommate here at this reunion. Anyway, the pants thing, nope, no pants, no slacks and even by then women were starting to wear slacks more and blue jeans were more common as far as everyday dress. 14:33 Interviewer: “Kathryn Hepburn in particular really made it.” Took over as far as that was concerned, but that rule was sacrosanct, we did not wear pants period. Now, if we were going to the corner grocery store or something, if we happened to be lucky enough to have a day off, of course if it was pouring down rain, you could wear your jeans. You were very careful about how you presented yourself to the public that was still very important. You didn’t have to worry about make-up, you didn’t have to worry too much about the length of your hair, that was something that was included in this charm school business and make-up, yes or no depending, most of the time you put it on after the game not before. I remember the idea of dating—I don’t 16 �think—I’m going to get side tracked here, but the movie A League of Their Own, has this wonderful scene at the “Suds Bucket”, I don’t know if you remember, but where Madonna does her thing and I’m thinking, “oh, if we only had a “Suds Bucket” when I was playing ball, I would have been there at every opportunity. 15:40 I love to dance and I don’t remember my date ever asking a chaperone whether they could go out with me and I dated quite a bit. Interviewer: “Well, let’s start at the beginning, you’ve gone through the spring training with the Daisies and the key thing here, I think, is for us to understand, and remember we’re trying to get as much of your experience as possible and not the league, but your experience. You had left home to play in the league for how long?” Four years Interviewer: “Right, but for your first season, a season is what?” I think that first year Peoria was in the league and both of the Wisconsin [teams], so we had eight teams that first year and then it went to six and eventually it went to five, but we started out with eight teams. First of all I went back home, went to my senior prom and graduated from high school all in one week and then I became a Daisy. There I am in Fort Wayne, Indiana, my roommate is Pat Scott and she’s another rookie and she’s a pitcher and a very good pitcher. I’ve got my Daisy uniform on and somebody picks me up in a car to take me, I didn’t have an automobile or anything and I had no camera and by the way we didn’t have cameras, if we had cameras you’d have all kinds of things to use. The only cameras around were the little Brownie box cameras, no one had a camera to take any pictures of each other and that’s why we’re short on pictures. The girls keep asking about former players pictures and none of us had any cameras to take any pictures, 17 �let alone a movie camera. So here I am again, I’m back on track. 17:24 At the ballpark and Max Carey is our manager we’re playing seven days a week with double headers on Sunday and a seven inning first game. I think originally they had a nine inning second game, but the switched and changed that to—I think because it got a little too much with—we played a hundred and eighteen games that first season, so we had seven innings and seven innings and then you got on the bus and rode all night to Rockford, Illinois and then you played on Monday night and then you played seven more games and so on. Interviewer: “This is overhand at this point?” This is overhand, yes, this is 1951 and overhand started in 1948, so we went to—we were definitely overhand pitching. 18:12 Interviewer: “This wasn’t a problem for you because you started out overhand and as a catcher you were catching overhand anyway.” Yup, well I loved it because I have short fingers you know and the baseball is small. Nine inches is very different from a ten inch or twelve inch softball you know and my softball would every once in a while fly off into right field when I’m trying to throw to second base. So here we are, I’ve got this wonderful little nine-inch ball that I can get a hold of, so I really enjoyed playing with a regulation nine-inch ball. Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?” I didn’t give it too much thought, but the reaction, I think, on the part of a lot of the players in the beginning, and very much like it was in the film, was, “you mean I have to play ball in that dress?” I think once they started to play—I think the biggest problem was the strawberries, I don’t think it was—well, the other problem, and I’m going to digress here a little bit and go back. By the time I got in the league we’d already made 18 �them into mini skirts. 19:09 If you look at the original uniform it’s got like three yards of material in it. It’s got all kinds of extra skirt and it was to be worn exactly, according to the older women, it was to be worn exactly one hand length above the knee. Well, that’s pretty long and then you try to bend over and pick up a ground ball, you’ve got mostly skirt and no ball, so you know these gals—our players are smart cookies and the first thing they did was say, “we got to modify this”, so I talked to some of the older players and they said was one of the first things they did was they got safety pins and they would safety pin all this extra material of to the right and to the side, so it was more straight up and down. By the time I got to the league they had really wised up I’ll tell you, we had the first mini skirts. We took out all of the extra material, tightened it up and we lifted it up so it was right below the tight line, so you could completely spread your legs without any problem. Now, it’s still a one-piece dress and another thing, they wanted us to keep it cinched in so it looked like we had a waistline you know. 20:20 Have you ever tried to catch with your arms and your dress tries to go up in the air? It’s practically impossible, so I kept—we would loosen everything when no one was watching you know, we’d loosen this decorative belt that we had, which didn’t serve any real purpose except being decorative, so we’d loosen that up and we looked pretty great out there because according to everything you’ve read and so on, showing a lot of leg is ok, and we got to do it in the fifties when it didn’t happen all the time. They were covered up below the knee, and there were a lot of good-looking legs, so it served the purpose. Interviewer: “What can you recall, if not your first game, what’s the first memory you have of a game in the very beginning?” 19 �The first memory I have is being sent in to catch the last inning or the last two inning of the game and hopefully we were ahead. I would get to go in because I was the rookie on the team. We had two other very good catchers, and I’d get to catch batting practice often for experience, and that first year I just sat on the bench and watched everybody. 21:31 Like I said, I’d have to go out and warm up the pitcher or go out to the bull pen and warm up the reliever that was going in or maybe you got in to catch the eighth inning or the eighth and the ninth inning for experience, and I know that first year, in 1951, Max Carey said, “well, if we send her off to Kenosha for August, or part of August”, and Kenosha was a team that was folding at that time and there last year was in 1951, if I remember correctly. They were traveling by car and all of their home games were all now away games, they adjusted that somehow, so I got to play a few games for Kenosha. I don’t remember much about that; it was only for about a couple weeks. 22:18 Interviewer: “Your first season, this is going to be a touch question because it’s—I have to keep in mind that you’re a very young, seventeen your first year—Was there any sense at that point, maybe later it’s different, but was there any sense at that point, the first season, that this was going to go on anywhere beyond that year, or next year, playing?” I don’t think anybody thought too much about it, this was my first year, maybe some of the older players who had been in the league for four or five years, had a sense, when all of a sudden they’re thinking about, “we don’t have the turnout in some of these towns and we’re not going to have a team in Kenosha next year”. Dropping from eight to six-that would have been a clue to me if I had been thinking about that. 20 �Interviewer: “I guess what I’m trying to get at is, today a young boy, even to a certain degree a young girl, can dream about being a professional, not necessarily baseball, but you’re playing professional ball, but did you see yourself as a professional ball player?” 23:24 I knew I was going to college, so after the 1951, first year, I took what money I earned and paid my college tuition. I did that for four years, so in essence my four years as an all American paid for my Baccalaureate degree. So there and I think my parents were very supportive of that, but that’s the way I used the money. I never saw myself or as my one hat or one role in life as being a professional baseball player. Interviewer: “Another tough question, and this as you look back—I look at my own life and as a seventeen or eighteen year old, did I really know what I wanted to do kind of thing, but did you understand that this was something very unique and that this baseball team was something very unique at the time or was it just like at the ballpark when you played in the back lot with the kids, it was fun, but was there any sense—ok this is paying for my college, but was there any sense the this is really something great?” 24:32 At least you didn’t ask me the question; did we know we were being part of baseball history? Interviewer: “I’ll wait until later for that one.” I mean no, no, I don’t think there was ever a player that played in our league—my question to you, do you think you’re going to get the Pulitzer Prize sometime? No, everybody that I knew loved to play and the only time you didn’t love it was when you got a strawberry. Another time when you didn’t love it is when it rained in Fort Wayne 21 �and they poured gasoline on the field and burned the field in order to get rid of the water and you had to go out and play in that and slide in that and field ground balls in that. There were times when you didn’t—or you were very, very tired. Sometimes in August when it’s very hot and muggy like it is the last couple of days here in Michigan, it got pretty hot and when it got muggy we got pretty tired. 25:25 Remember, we didn’t have any weight lifting or any weight training, we might have had some batting practice in mornings at home, but very seldom on the road. We had no batting helmets, so if you got hit in the head, you got hit in the head you know. We wore men’s equipment and I was a catcher and I was forever—I don’t know what kind of tape it is, the shiny stuff. Interviewer: “Duct tape” Duct tape, there you go, I couldn’t think of it. I was forever cutting the chest protector down so I could lift my arms, and the shin guards came halfway up my thighs because that’s all we had, we had men’s equipment. Our bats were men’s bats and I couldn’t find a bat that was small enough around, Ted Williams would have loved me because he wanted that really small handle there, and I needed that because I had short fingers and the weight was thirty-five, thirty-six pounds [ounces], that’s Babe Ruth weight for a bat. 26:32 I think I probably would have been a pretty good hitter if I ever could have found a bat. We’d go into a sporting goods store to buy our bats right off the shelf and there weren’t that many. Excuse me, I’m getting carried away, but the playing of the game was made a little difficult because of the fact that there was nothing much out there, really, for women, but no, the question you asked, did anybody think they were going to be, or where were they going to be in history, how important was women’s baseball compared to others? I do know though because somebody asked me, Jean Faut asked me 22 �this, we were the first professional women’s team sport league—first professional women’s sport period. The golf people have challenged it, the PGA has that, but they didn’t come into being until 1948, 1948 I think Just a tidbit to throw in there, but I don’t think any of them ever, I never heard any talk about it, we has more fun singing on the bus and deciding what we were going to eat or what we were going to wear to something. 27:45 Interviewer: “How many seasons did you play?” Four, I terminated the league; I finished them out in 1954. Interviewer: “I want to start now in getting into the actual games, but I want to do it season to season as opposed to jumping—if you want to jump in there it’s fine, but I’m just thinking, because your experience actually grows as you get better season to season and I assume you did, so how was the first season?” I did get better, you’rer right. It was very enjoyable even though I didn’t play very much. I got to meet and get acquainted with my teammates and Max Carey was a wonderful—he was a terrific base runner, so you learned a lot about base running from him and he was a good teacher and I was very content to be where I was and continue to learn. I never thought about jumping up and down and saying, “I want to play”, which is something they would be doing now days, the men would be doing anyway or, “trade me”, one of the two. 28:49 Interviewer: “I did one of the interviews in Milwaukee and I asked this question about the managers. Did the manager treat you as a woman baseball player or did the manager treat you as a baseball player?” 23 �As a baseball player, let’s face it, look at society during those years; the men were in charge of everything, religion, economics, political, and were in charge of baseball. There were men managers, the men were the umpires, the men drove the bus, but they treated us as baseball players. That doesn’t mean they didn’t treat us with respect, they respected us as women and were concerned about things like we were up all night riding the bus. The manager was very concerned about that and the bus driver, helping us with out luggage and be careful that is a bad step or something. They were very aware that we were women, but as far as the game was concerned, we were treated like ball players. 29:51 No yelling, they were very professional about—the professional players like Jimmy Foxx and Max Carey and so on, they were very professional in their interacting. The no crying in baseball, I know that’s Hollywood proverbially, but still there are people who think that actually happened and if you made a mistake, in some ways, your manager would maybe call you off to the side or into the dugout and talk to you individually or after the game was over they might call you in. I only know of one incident in four years of a manager, in a relatively public area, having words and I don’t remember what it was about at the time, but they were very professional and I know as a catcher it was all right for me to kick a little dirt on the plate and to maybe kick a little dirt on the umpire’s shoes. 30:56 You had to be very careful what you said to him you know. I didn’t talk much to the umpire and I didn’t talk much to the other players. Interviewer: “An interesting thing came up in the interviews that I’d done in Milwaukee and was that a lot of you learned how to play baseball, as you said, just playing with the boys. You never had professional training per say, but the ones that I interviewed said that amateurs contributed a great deal because they told you 24 �little tricks or little things that professional baseball players learned in their training, but since you were kind of a new thing, did you get any kind of tricks or hints about catching that helped you become a better catcher or did you just learn it on your own?” Not too much because none of the—none of my managers were catchers. If they had been I probably would have, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t listen. I learned a lot about base running and learned some things about covering the base and certainly—we had infield practice and we’d have-- the ball would be hit in from right field and you have to hit the cutoff player you know and bounce it in on one bounce to the catcher. 32:05 We all knew the basics, I don’t know where we learned them, but we knew the basics. The manager might, some managers more than other managers, some had practice where others—it seemed to be individual, from the gals I talked to, it seemed to be individualized. Different managers worked on different things. I know one of the things, because I wasn’t playing regular, I didn’t get—I got about two swings in for batting practice because, you know, we had to get the regular players and hitters out there, and we didn’t have much bating practice before—the managers I played for, they just didn’t do that and I know darn well that I could have hit much, much better, every year I got better at everything, and I know if I’d had more hitting practice and had a bat that I could hang on to and didn’t fly out to the third baseman every time it flew out of my hands. 33:01 Interviewer: “When did it change for you, in the second season or the third season, where you were playing more? You said you were sitting on the bench most of the time.” 25 �I sat on the bench and the next year was 1952 and Jimmy Foxx, we had six, I think six teams, you can go back and check on this, but I think we dropped down to six teams that year and for the next two years I think we were at six teams, and Jimmy Foxx was the manager and don’t let anybody tell you that he wasn’t just a wonderful man, I adored him. He was renascent, well the exact opposite of Jimmy Dugan. Now, he was an alcoholic and I want the record—everybody knew that, but if you’re a health educator, you know that alcoholics can drink quite a bit and it doesn’t show, so he’d go home and do his drinking at night and he would show up at the ballpark sober the next day and he was a great big guy, so I suppose he could drink a lot. 34:01 I don’t know, but I think everybody that knew him, and Bobby Doerr lives in my part of the world out in Oregon, and I’ve talked to him about Jimmy Foxx and he said that the drinking is what caused his demise as a baseball player or helped add to that, and we just loved him. If we were lucky he would take batting practice four or five times during the season and he would hit the ball over our fence, over a pasture and out over a four lane highway, but we couldn’t get him—we just couldn’t get him to do it very often and we had to beg him, we had to grovel to get him to take batting practice, but we all adored him, so most of us feel kind of bad that sports writers and movie critics have written that the Jimmy Dugan in A League of Their Own is a thinly veiled Jimmy Foxx and every chance I get I like to say, “you think what you want, but that’s not the Jimmy Foxx that I played for”, so that kind of bothered me. 35:10 Interviewer: “In the second season did you start to play more? I played some, not a lot, we still had two good catchers and we had lost two good teams from the league. I was always the squirt, about 110 pounds, maybe 115 at my top weight. 26 �I wasn’t a home run hitter, and I was vying with six foot gals that were pretty good sized and I couldn’t get a bat that I could hold. Interviewer: “I think that was the reason. When did it change?” 1953 I started to play. I was traded to South Bend and I guess they needed a catcher, I don’t know, but I was traded to South Bend and started to play regularly. Interviewer: “Once again It’s unfair, but can you remember the feeling—because you’d been sitting on the bench for two seasons and now you’re, you got a good gig going on here, you got money coming in, you’re going to college and all, but there had to be a difference in your emotions when suddenly you’re now at south bend and now you’re playing more. Tell us about that, how did that feel?” 36:16 Absolutely, and I guess all of a sudden I realized that, “yeah, I belong here”. Maybe before I didn’t think that I quite belonged. I belonged in all these ways, but as far as being a ball player maybe I didn’t quite belong and all of a sudden I started to play and I started to be able to throw the ball down to second base alright and I got knocked on my whatever I suppose ten or twelve times and got knocked out a couple times, but I managed to make the put out at home plate and it’s not easy when you see a six footer coming at you. Anyway, I took a few of those knocks pretty well, hung onto the ball and I think my feeling was coming that I really belonged. 37:14 My hitting was coming along, I wasn’t a great hitter, and that didn’t seem to bother me. I thought it would come, but my throwing was better and I always knew in my head what was going on, more so than some of my teamates who couldn’t remember how many outs there were, but you know, I always was on top—the mental part of it wasn’t any problem. 27 �Interviewer: “I was a pitcher, a lousy hitter, but such a good pitcher, this is little league and I’m not anywhere in your league, and I’m talking as if we’re both professionals here, but I do know what you mean. There is a certain amount of compensation your players give you if you know that you’re a really good pitcher or a really good catcher. You don’t hit as well, but we got hitters and we’ll take care of it. What was the most challenging thing about being a professional catcher as opposed to this sandlot kind of catching? Or maybe there wasn’t a whole lot of difference, I don’t know.” 38:11 It’s hard to compare because you’re older and have had all these other experiences that kind of filtered in here. I think part of it might be the idea of playing everyday rather than just on occasion and you tend to build on that fact that maybe you learned something last night and you still remember it. Excuse me, but rather than, “I made that mistake two weeks ago”, because you didn’t play that often, plus the fact that we’re older and hopefully you learn some things, you read the paper, you maybe read some things about Ted Williams hitting you know. I mean, different players had a different, I think, approach. 39:06 Interviewer: “Did you have any sense of how good you were?” No, not the foggiest and you brought that up earlier and one of the things that I think is interesting is I have always felt rather uncomfortable knowing I was on a team for four years, but never contributed heaps and gobs. That I never was, although I played regularly, especially the last two years and played well and the last year I hit 284 which is in the top one third or yeah, in the top one third of all the players that played that year, and I was up there and I feel good about that, but I always felt that I wasn’t quite worthy 28 �and I don’t know quite how to explain this. I never really thought about how to articulate it, but I’ve always thought—yes, I guess that would be a way of expressing it, that I wasn’t as good as some of these other players and therefore, I’m not worthy of being included in the group and yet so many people, people that aren’t just my friends who might tell me something like this, “hey, you made the league, you made the team, you played, what else is there?” It’s just a “get a hold of yourself and quit thinking that way, that thinking is obsolete, it doesn’t make any sense”. 40:34 Interviewer: “A lot of people didn’t make the league and another thing that is really a good part of that movie, is that scene with Geena Davis and Tom Hanks where she says, “if it was easy everybody could do it”. That’s the scene I quote to everybody, throw out that” there’s no crying in baseball” and get to the heart of the game of baseball. “It just got too hard”, she said and he said, “it’s supposed to be hard, if it wasn’t hard everyone could do it, it’s the hard that makes it great”, and to me that is the summary, the overpowering scene in that whole movie that sums up what baseball is all about. 41:12 Interviewer: “I use it in my writing classes. I teach writing and I said, “If it’s not hard anybody could do it”. I use that same example.” It’s the hard that makes it great and to me that is the scene from the whole movie that the women in this league should take with them to share with friends, relatives, and admirers, fans, and forget that, “there’s no crying in baseball”, which is a clichéd kind of thing that got thrown in there so Tom Hanks could do a little acting. I guess he did it well because according to Pepper Paire, one of our catchers in the league who was one of the advisors on, or whatever kind of a role she had as far as the film was concerned, she said, “they 29 �had to have ten takes of that with Tom Hanks because the cameraman would break up every time he said, “there’s no crying in baseball”. Interviewer: “So you just got to take it realize, “well, that’s Hollywood”. 42:12 Absolutely, but I’m sorry, but that’s the real clincher in that film, that’s my scene. Interviewer: “I agree” So I got better every year, all right? 1953 I’m catching with Fort Wayne, I mean with the South Band Blue Sox and I catch a perfect game. Jean Faut, who pitched as probably one of the all time greats in our league, she could play any position, she could hit the ball out of the ballpark, she could pitch, she had all the pitches in the world, she pitched a perfect game on September 3rd, 1953 and we beat the Kalamazoo Lassies four to zip in Kalamazoo on their home turf. 42:56 I’m laughing because I have no idea if she called the game or if I called the game, but I’m sure she did call her own game, so I take very little credit for that other than the fact that I managed to hang on to the ball, all right? People keep asking me who called the game and I said, “well, when Jean Faut’s pitching she calls her own game and whether or not I called the pitches she liked and she didn’t you know. Interviewer: “Yeah, but something you might have noticed in baseball, you have to have a catcher with the pitcher. It’s essential to the whole thing and she may have been a great pitcher, but unless somebody was on the other end catching it, I’m afraid the game would just not be the same.” Anyway, that’s my big claim to fame. That and hitting one home run in Grand Rapids. 43:42 Interviewer: “I want to hear that one, please.” 30 �I hit one home run in 1953 with South Bend, I think it was—no, maybe it was 1954—all I remember is that I hit it over the fence, it was in Grand Rapids and it was my one home run and it might have been in 1954, I think it was in 1954. Anyway, 53 or 54 I got my one home run in there. 1953 I caught almost the whole season for South Bend and that’s where the perfect game came in. We were playing a shorter—I think maybe six teams, but we weren’t playing as many games and attendance was starting to fade and I think, if I’m not mistaken, when I reheard Ken Burns, they had it on PBS again, they talked in there about the fact that in the early 1950’s all the major league ballparks had problems with attendance. 44:42 So, I’m trying to put together—people want to know why we quit playing and I hadn’t realized that the attendance had really fallen off in major league baseball in the early fifties. So, it stands to reason that we wouldn’t have people coming out to the ballpark either. They didn’t give any reason for it, but they said there was a major drop off in all major league attendance during the early fifties, so obviously that happened with us as well, so 1953 the season was shortened, 1954 I got traded back to Fort Wayne. I didn’t ask why, I just picked up my stuff and went and Bill Allington was out manager then and you’ve probably heard his name because he’s the manager in the league over the years that everybody said, “if somebody cracked open his skull little baseball would roll out”. I mean, he was a taskmaster, I don’t know if he did spot quizzes, but he had the rulebook and he expected you to know the rules, he did a lot of teaching and he was the manager of the infamous Rockford Peaches for many years and then he came to us in 1954. 45:45 He said, “Lois, I’ve got a catcher, you’re too fast you’re going to be a left fielder”, and he made me into an outfielder. I didn’t –well, I roamed well and I was pretty quick, I had to make up for my other lack of strength and 31 �other things by being fairly quick, so I could read where the ball was going to go and made some pretty good catches out there and I could throw fairly accurately and in left field you didn’t need a cannon for an arm, only the right—that’s the interesting thing about playing right field, you know when you’re a kid it’s the worst place to be and when you’re in the majors it’s the best outfield position because you have to have the greatest arm and you got to hit and do other things. Left field was a good place for me because I could handle everything he needed and I hit. There’s something I want to share with you if we’ve got time. I’m playing left field and we’ve been playing with this ten inch ball and all of a sudden, around the fourth of July, I think it was a couple of days after the fourth of July, it was around the fourth of July in 1954 and all of a sudden we get a nine inch regulation baseball. 47:00 I’ve talked to the gals and I can’t get anybody for the life of me, able to explain whether or not they ever really practiced with a nine inch ball. It just sort of appeared. We got to the ballpark, the baselines had been extended, the pitchers mound had been moved back to sixty feet when we had been playing with it a little shorter than that. Same old bats and same old uniform, but they moved the outfield fences back and they kept playing with the distance so they could—I remember hearing bill Allington say, “If you can hit a home run, we got to move the fences back”, but the thing that I haven’t been really able to digest is how we could go from a major change from a ten inch ball to a nine inch ball and change the distances everywhere and not ever have practiced like two or three weeks before in the mornings or sometime with this nine inch ball, but it just appeared and bingo there we are with a whole new game. 48:02 I don’t know what the newspapers or the radio, we had those two venues, but no television, but what they had to say about it. I would like to go back sometime and do some 32 �research to find out how it happened. I know it happened because of the fan appeal and they wanted to see if they could bring some more people into the—I think most of the changes that were made over the years were made primarily to bring more people into the ballpark. Softball wasn’t a novelty, but boy, throwing it sidearm from a distance with a smaller ball that’s kind of different. The second part of my theory, since I’m allowed, is that these managers knew of the athletic ability of the gals they had playing the game. I don’t think they ever would have tried to change the game if they didn’t think the gals could handle it. 48:51 Interviewer: “How did it end for you? How did you find out that it was the end for you particularly?” Well, fortunately I was playing left field and I think it was around the sixteenth of August, around the middle of August after we’d made this giant switch to the nine inch ball, that somebody in South Bend, the catcher, got injured, so they asked me if I would go back and finish the season because they needed a catcher. They were—we kept losing the catchers, but anyway, I got shifted back and I said, “Well you know if they need a catcher, I don’t think I have much choice”. I had to go and that was the year that fort Wayne was just knocking the socks off the ball you know. They had Jo Weaver and Betty Weaver Foss and Jean Weaver and these four hundred hitters and home runs every time you turned around and locomotors on the base pad I’ll tell you that and so, I went back and finished the season in South Bend. Now, Fort Wayne won the pennant and I remember going back and I don’t know, I don’t think—they had a banquet or something, but they did give me—I got a scrapbook and it says Daisies “54” and you know I’m not sure—I got a couple of things that they gave to the players. 50:08 But I finished at 33 �South Bend and it kind of finished with a whimper and I’m not sure we did anything in South Bend to end thing s up, but I’ll ask Mary, my roommate, my married roommate with I don’t know how many grand kids she has now, but we’re rooming together and I’ll see if she has any feeling about how we ended. It sort of ended with a whimper, actually. Now the thing that probably didn’t bother me as much was because I was getting ready to go, I got my degree now and I’m out in the world, I got another goal in mind and I was fortunate enough that I was very successful in education and went on and they were four wonderful years, don’t misunderstand me, but they’re not my entire life, they don’t define me. 50:52 My four years don’t define me. Interviewer: “That’s an interesting transition for my next question. You say it ended with kind of a whimper, but you had a life ahead of you and you and you had a very productive life ahead of you. A lot of the WWII vets that I’ve interviewed and even some of the women ball players, say that they didn’t really think about their baseball experience as they’re going through their life. Is that true of you too? Did you tell people you were a baseball player when you were an educator?” I did on occasion and the response was, “oh, you’re a softball player”, and you’ll get that from everybody. No one knew who we were and where we were or what we did. I wasn’t until Penny Marshall came out with the film and people were coming out of the woodwork, former students and colleagues say, “Why didn’t you ever tell us you played baseball?” I said, “If you had been listening, I did tell you that early on and you responded with “you played softball”? And I never could explain it well enough to get you to understand that it really wasn’t softball, it was baseball”, and once the film came out—51:58 34 �Interviewer: “That’s my next question. What effect did the film have on you? I don’t mean a critical review of the film, do you know what I’m talking about?” I’m going to give you a critical review of it. I’m in Eugene, Oregon and I get a call from a local newspaper, the head of the sports section calls me and he said, “ I would like to take you to see the film and the first showing is Saturday morning at eleven o’clock”, and at a local theater, and I said, “well”, my mother lived with me for twenty-two years and she was still in good health then, so this is 1992, so I said, “yes”, and I obviously hadn’t seen it and hadn’t been invited to any of the premieres. I’m way out there where it takes a pony express to get to me and no one had ever bothered and I didn’t get to Cooperstown to the exhibit because my boss was an Englishman and he didn’t think—I suppose if I had said it was soccer he may have—or cricket, there you go, but he didn’t think I should go. 53:03 I had to work with the guy for another eight years or so and I didn’t think it was worth circumventing him to go to the Dean, which I could have done, but I opted not to do that. Interviewer: “It shows that you didn’t think it was that big of a deal I guess, huh?” Well, I had to work with this gentleman for eight years and he was in charge and he could have made life very uncomfortable for me for eight years. There we are back to the movie, so I meet him at the theater and we go in. The first thing is the music you know, overpowering music. I don’t know how many minutes we were into the film before I was crying and in another two minutes I was sobbing. I sobbed, and I don’t mean cried, I sobbed through the whole movie. Talk about embarrassed, losing my cool, I just cried and cried my heart out. I just brought back everything I hadn’t thought about for—since 1954 to 1992. 54:03 It all came rushing forward you know, excluding the hyperbole, the 35 �feel of it, and like I just said, I just sobbed for—I sobbed through the end and then I was embarrassed and he wanted to buy me a cup of coffee or something and my eyes were two big red blobs here and I told him I was sorry and I was embarrassed, but it just brought back this rush of memories and I’m sorry, this is just the way I reacted to it. 54:35 Interviewer: “How did that movie change you or change your perception of your participation after that. You’re past the crying and the emotional element and now you’re into day two, day three and the rest of your life. Did it have any effect on you in terms of other people reacting? You said your students were talking about it and stuff. How did it change you?” A number of people wanted to go see the movie with me. They wanted to know, all of a sudden there’s this big gigantic interest in this movie. It made lots of money because it’s still being shown every two months or three on cable TV, so anyway, I went, I must have gone eight times with different groups of people who wanted to go see the movie and we’d go have ice cream or something afterwards and they could ask me about the movie and then I got to—I was a chapter in a book and the university bought the book, that chapter to put in their quarterly. 55:36 Then more people had a chance to read it, but immediately after the film, I think I went seven or eight times with different groups of people and I was considerably calmer and could explain what happened and then people started asking me if I would come and speak to this group, the rotary, there are three rotary’s in Eugene and while the film was still being shown I got invited to speak to a lot of-Interviewer: “Were you at all surprised at all of this?” 36 �No, honestly no, because finally our story got told and it was the truth. Now, there are some things that are out of order and probably the most significant is the fact that in 1943 we would have been throwing underhand and not overhand, but there was a germ of truth, even Stillwell, you know I played for the Blue Sox and Jean Faut, the pitcher for the no hit game, was married to the manager, Karl Winsch, and they had a little boy and he traveled on the bus with us, but he was a little boy of the fifties and not the 1990’s, so you never heard of him, you never knew that he was there, so they took some of these ideas and did the Hollywood thing to him, which I could stand. 56:46 I’ve always said that it captured, that film captured the spirit of the league and the spirit of the women that played, the spirit of the game, those three things, the spirit of the league, the spirit of the game that we played and the spirit of the women that played because not being nit picking, I thought Penny Marshall did us just fine. 57:08 I was pleased with her film. Interviewer: “Looking back now and for the record, Where do you think this all fits into the whole scheme of things for—and lets get really big here, you’re an educator, I’m an educator and we know that in human history there are moments, some of them tragic, some of them great, some of them—you look at the time line of history and there’s all these things. We’re blips on these things, but where does the All American Girls Professional Baseball League fit into all of this?” Well, I think we need to stop taking credit for being a pioneer in women’s sports. Title IX is what did this for us. Title IX came along in 1972 and any parent that’s got a child, male or female, that can get a college scholarship now, we can’t—you know if you’re going to get $100,000.00 free scholarship to Stanford or Ohio State or Michigan or wherever it is, it’s not to be sneezed at and that came with Title IX. 58:12 Also, the 37 �proliferation of other women’s professional sports came with Title IX because until Penny Marshall got to us, nobody knew we even existed, so I see us a sort of a blip, a very fond, warm, fuzzy blip or whatever you would like to call it, an anomaly actually and I’m often asked if women belong playing with men’s teams and no, I don’t see that because of lestosterone and lack of and levers, you know, they’re bigger, they’re stronger etc., but I do think if the ever wanted to have an al American girls, Women’s professional baseball team again, and there were enough women who were interested in doing it, we have professional women’s fast pitch softball and most of those gals, that’s the way the original All Americans got started. 59:06 Most of them made the transition to the smaller ball and the longer distances, some couldn’t, but I don’t think we should e taking credit, in retrospect, for something that really title nine, through federal funding and balancing the men’s and the women’s varsity sports at the collegiate level, and the high school levels, helped balance out. Interviewer: “But you have to admit the number of women who credit you, regardless of whether the film was there or not. I talk to athletes, women athletes at our university. There’s a coach at our university who you were a major inspiration to and knew enough about the fact before the movie.” We may be an inspiration and I’m not saying that our story won’t inspire prospective women athletes, and I think we do everything we can to be the voice as well as the face of the AAGPBL speaking as often as we can, but yes, sure I would love to be an inspiration to a group of Babe Ruth baseball ten year olds, girls, and boys. Interviewer: “I’m trying to get my mind around that.” 38 �Interviewer: “Let me ask you the last question and I really appreciate you put up with this for so long. You mentioned earlier about how you played baseball as a child and you enjoyed it. You played the baseball as a professional with the idea that you were going to go to college, you had a larger picture involved, but now, looking back at that experience, and now you have pre-baseball professional baseball after you watch the things you’ve accomplished that you’re proud of, this is just one of them, I know that, but where does that fit in your life?” 1:02 Oh, it’s extremely important because I’ve been sports oriented you know, it’s right up there with some other awards, alright? It was only four years out of my like, but it’s a significant four years. I wouldn’t trade those four years for forty of some of my other years, and it’s even better now that we’re older because we can embellish all those stories that we’ve been telling over the years you know? You really did get to third base, but I tagged you, no you didn’t, it was second base, what do you mean, you never got to third base. It’s a significant part of my life. I simply meant—what I’m saying is it doesn’t define my total life, but it’s a significant portion of it and I’m extremely proud of it. I wear my ring with pride and thank god I had those four years and I probably would have played four more if they had them because it worked out well being a teacher and coming back and I was getting better. 2:10 That made me feel good. 39 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_LYoungen Title A name given to the resource Youngen, Lois (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Youngen, Lois Description An account of the resource Lois Youngen was born in a small town in Ohio in 1933. She grew up playing baseball with boys from her town, and played on a boys' team for several years before switching to a girls' softball team while in high school. She learned about the All American League while visiting a relative in Fort Wayne in 1950. She joined the league the next year and played for Fort Wayne, Kenosha and South Bend as a catcher and outfielder until the league folded in 1954. She used the money she earned as a player to go to college, and eventually earned a doctorate in Physical Education and taught at the University of Oregon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-04 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09534ac5cad0c3de04430a392a308d4b.m4v 34e524624d277662d6dc1c5934bc2b74 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/149a9b4cd9d722443da7e47d52fdd06f.pdf de582ea70840b72f5d636aa3a16fa60b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Katie Horstman Length of Interview: (01:08:34) Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 20, 2010 Interviewer: “What is your name and where and when were you born?” My name is Katherine Teresa Horstman known as Horsy or Katie and I go by the name of Katie and I was born in Minster, Ohio on April 14, 1935. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like, before high school, in the early days?” The early days—I had five brothers, two sisters, born on a farm east of Minster, Ohio and I’ll tell you, I had a lot of cows to milk every morning and that’s how I got my wrist strength, so Jimmy Foxx said. I helped with the chores because my brothers all were in service at one time, so the three girls had to help out with the farm work, help dad. Interviewer: “So your dad was a farmer?” Oh yes. Interviewer: “A dairy farmer?” We had everything. It was a hundred acres at that time, about a hundred acres it was all small. Small town, German town, talked German, didn’t talk in English, I was brought up speaking German. 1:19. Interviewer: “So the early day before the war you had your brothers around you?” They were all older I was the second youngest. Interviewer: “Ok, so you didn’t play games with your brother—they were already older.” Except for one brother, John and he was a good ball player, but whenever I could, whenever I didn’t have chores to do or anything, drive the tractor or whatever, John and I would hit balls. We had a lot of neighbor kids and every Sunday it was known that we would take turns going to each other’s houses and play baseball, not softball because the boys didn’t want to play softball, we had to play baseball. 2:03 If you weren’t any good you sat on the sidelines, but if you were good they asked you to play. 1 �Interviewer: “So did you sit on the sidelines?” No way, no I was pretty good otherwise they wouldn’t let me play. Interviewer: “In school were there any kinds of sports for girls?” Not at all until—it was a Catholic community, 99.9 percent Catholic, and a young priest came into town and he started the CYO, which was a Catholic Youth Organization. The girls didn’t have anything and he felt sorry for us and he was a good ball player, so he started it. We had softball, so I started in the sixth grade and ended up a freshman because at fifteen years I was scouted by Fort Wayne, Indiana. 2:56 Interviewer: “We’re jumping too quickly—so he set up a softball team that was not just for boys?” No, not at all, they didn’t play softball they played baseball. Interviewer: “So there was a softball girls team that you played on in high school?’ Exactly. Interviewer: “Did you hear about out did you know about, for example, professional men’s baseball? Were their newspapers that you red or radio?” Oh my gosh, Wally Post is from around us, played for the Reds and Pete Rose was born on April 14th, same as my birthday, so that was my hero, my idol. Interviewer: “So you actually knew about baseball outside of just the people you were playing with?” 3:39 Oh yeah. Interviewer: “You followed the teams?” Radio, we always had the Reds on—big Reds fans. Interviewer: “When did you hear, I don’t mean the exact date or anything, but do you remember when it was that you heard there was a women’s team?” Well, in one of the papers, Dottie Schroeder was in the Sidney Daily News and said that Charlie Grimm would pay her fifty thousand dollars if she was a man. I cut it out and I had a little scrap book that I kept all the clippings in because we had a weekly paper, The Minster Post, and they would always put the scores in and what we did, and I pasted those in and I put Dottie’s picture right on the front and put under it, My Ambition, not knowing, I was only fourteen then when I saw this picture in the paper, and I cut it out and I always dreamt that hopefully I would meet her. 4:35 Interviewer: “So once you saw that picture, you cut it out and put it in your scrapbook. When did the actual opportunity come up?” 2 �The next year—my father passed away that year, when I was fourteen, so I was tired of milking the cows for my brother and the chickens and everything else that we had to do and I thought—I just kept praying on the dream that I gotta find. So we were playing St. Henry in Ohio in May during school time and a scout from Fort Wayne happened to be there and he told the coach from St. Henry, “Hey, I think that girl can play ball and she can play on the Fort Wayne Daisies team”, and he said, “who are the Fort Wayne Daisies? He had never heard of Fort Wayne either or girls baseball, so his daughter was a senior, so he said, “I would like to see those two try out for the Fort Wayne Daisies.” 5:45 He’s the one that took me after school was out, which was like May 23rd and we went to Fort Wayne and I started pitching and infield practice. Max Carey was the coach, hallo of famer, and he said, “Yes, you can stay”. 6:02 Interviewer: “What did your mom think about this?” Well, I came home, I had to get clothes and stuff, and I told her about it and she said, “As long as you go to church every Sunday you can go, but as soon as you don’t you’re back here”, so I never missed a Sunday in my life because I always remember my mother, she was very, very strict. Interviewer: “What was the actual process? How did you get there and once you got there what actually happened? I know you want to get into the game and all that, but for our purposes we want to know the exact details.” Okay, I was fifteen years old, I couldn’t drive, I didn’t have a car, my dad had passed away, and nobody could take me except Tony Bernard, who was from St. Henry, the coach, he took me and then I started and I had another roommate from Philadelphia and we stayed in somebody’s home, you couldn’t stay in apartments, we always stayed in private homes that wanted some ball players to stay with them. 7:16 Interviewer: “Did you sign a contract?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “At fifteen?” At fifteen I signed a contract. Fifty dollars, the rookies got fifty dollars a week, okay this was great money since I was only making forty cents for mowing the neighbors’ lawn, an acre. I could have cared less about the money I had no idea. I think the first year, until I turned sixteen; I was paid under the table. They gave me cash because they weren’t allowed to write out a check. 7:47 Interviewer: “So, had you traveled at all any distance before you went to Fort Wayne?” 3 �Probably Dayton, Ohio was forty-five miles and that took an hour and a half in a 1936 Ford because I remember the escalator that’s all I remember. I had never been on an escalator and I was petrified to go up that escalator and I finally did and it was okay. Since we had chores, you had to be there, it was a responsibility and we didn’t know any better and loved it as long as I could play for CYO once a week that was great to me and I loved to hit. 8:29 Interviewer: “What was your first impression of Fort Wayne when you got there?” Well, when I got there it was funny because Max Carey had me pitch right away. He wanted to see my arm. Well, I had a pretty good arm and I was very accurate and I pitched and pitched for at least thirty minutes batting practice and Lefty Alvarez was picking up the balls and giving them to me and she was talking and I couldn’t understand her and I thought, “what kind of a language is she talking and what am I getting into?” She kept saying, “are you tired, are you tired, are you tired?” I thought, “gosh” and I finally turned around and asked somebody because I couldn’t understand her and they said she was saying, “are you tired”, and they said she was from Cuba. 9:16 I said, “Cuba, where’s that? I had no idea. I really paid attention to the history lessons after that. Interviewer: “Did you feel at all intimidated at that age? Here’s these girls you know who are playing professional ball.” I was more intimidated by the big city life. That just threw me you know, all these cars and all these people, I had no idea, but as far as playing ball, no, they were all very nice. Dotty Schroeder was on that team, so I was happy, Jo Weaver, the sisters, Jean Weaver and Betty, super nice because most of them came from farms like me, so I could communicate and we talked farm life mostly and baseball and that’s all I remember. 10:09 Interviewer: “ Now rookies are usually treated like rookies, so how were you treated when you first started?” Not bad at all because they knew I had an arm and knew I could hit, so we had no problems. Jo, Jeanne and I, there were four of us that were fifteen, sixteen years old and that helped. With her sisters being older and Betty was a super player, and they played two years before I did, Betty did, So she had the car and she took us all around and that’s how I got my transportation. 10:54 Interviewer: “That must have been amazing to be with some players and one of them has a car?” I know, it was unreal, well she was making a hundred and some dollars a week and cars, you could buy a band new car at the end of the season for two thousand five hundred, so she always had a brand new car and a big one you know. We were in seventh heaven and didn’t know it. 4 �Interviewer: “I know this is going back a long way, and I don’t want to jump ahead too far, but what were the first few, say days or weeks like? You didn’t start playing in a game right away did you?” No, no. Interviewer: “What were the first days kind of like?” 11:31 Just more or less getting acquainted with the girls and getting use to playing every day and a regular schedule. Interviewer: “What was the routine? I know it was different sometimes, but what was the routine?” The routine was that a four o’clock you would be at the ballpark and we would warm up and stuff and seven o’clock was game time and the crowd would come in. Fort Wayne had one of the biggest crowds in the whole league and then we would watch the game or participate for the first couple of weeks or month. I didn’t play very much, but just watched to see how everybody was playing their position. I was very versatile because I could play outfield or whatever, but I never considered myself a pitcher because I didn’t pitch underhand, I always threw overhand. 12:35 Interviewer: “At that time, when you first started, were they still pitching underhand?” No, no, in softball in the CYO, that’s the only position I never played. Just to get acquainted with the bigger city and the fans and the rules, that’s what threw me, I couldn’t believe the rules. Lipstick on every day all the time because the chaperone would remind you and I mean she was strict, Tetzlaff from Wisconsin and every time we would try to get out of it or something she would say, “Okay, either wear it or you get fined”. The fine the first time was five dollars and then ten dollars and then twenty dollars and then suspension, you were out and man, I didn’t want to go home. Although I did get homesick and I was surprised, but you get over that. 13:32 I think my room mate, Jeanne Geissinger, who was sixteen, she helped me a lot, we were both together and like I said, the Weaver sisters really helped me. Interviewer: “I’m kind of curious about this, had you worn lipstick before you had gone into the league?” No, you normally didn’t wear lipstick in our town until you were sixteen. Sixteen was like a magic number, you could wear lipstick, you could have a date, you never dated before and that was another thing because some guys would come up and ask me for a date and I said, “well I don’t know, I have to ask the chaperone”, and she said, “Only if I go along”. Go along, I thought, “wow” and I said, “No, I’ll wait until I’m sixteen”. Interviewer: “Well, who taught you how to put lipstick on?” 5 �Well, I just did it you know. It wasn’t that hard and I thought it was amazing and then we had curfew and I wasn’t use to that either because on the farm we went to these dances and we had huge dance halls and we had Guy Lombardo, the Eagles and all and that was very famous in our town, we had big dances. 14:46 So, I don’t know, I just got to learn how to put lipstick on and everything and that was it. Interviewer: “ What were some of the other things you had to do besides lipstick? Did you have to wear your hair a certain way?” It had to be a certain length. You couldn’t wear boyish hairdos. You had to be in two hours on a road trip and that was another thing, we got to travel to Rockford, Illinois and all these places, but if you got off the bus to get a coke, you had to put a skirt on. You could wear shorts and slacks on the bus, and I thought--my god, we stopped at a little town and I said, “who in the world is out here at two thirty in the morning? I don’t see anybody”, and she said, “if you want to pay the five dollars, it’s up to you”. No way. 15:41 Interviewer: “Was there, when you first started, did they kind of sit you down, you and a couple others, to kind of go through this little school—this is what you have to do, you have to have on lipstick etc.?” The chaperone did. Interviewer: “So right away from the beginning they told you?” Right away on the very first day. Interviewer: “Okay, so like you said, there were certain rules and regulations and if you didn’t you were fined.” Yes, I told you what the rules were on that. Five, ten, twenty and suspension. Interviewer: “How far did you get?” Oh no, I paid attention believe me, I wanted to play ball. I did everything they said and my mother would have been really proud of me because I would always question her. 16:31 Interviewer: “So let’s kind of put ourselves, you’re on the bench over the first couple of weeks, watching and seeing how the game is being played, what was your experience when you first got your opportunity to play?” Well, the first opportunity I remember playing outfield, right field, and I think I pitched too. I did real well in hitting and Max Carey liked the way I hit, so I played outfield and I think I pitched the very first year too and I won three games. I pitched three games and 6 �won every one of them, so that was great. The next year Jimmy Foxx came in as our manager in 1952 and he didn’t want me in the outfield. He thought I had super arms, so he put me on third base in the infield and I really liked the infield. I moved around and then he needed pitchers, so then I pitched and played third base. 17:35 I didn’t get a day’s rest like these pitchers do now, I went right to third base, if he needed me I was right there. Interviewer: “Let’s stay in the first season, you got a chance to pitch and one of the things I found from some of the interviews that I have done with the other players, is when they became a rookie there was certainly the sense that they were the rookie, but once you played and the other women saw you playing well, you no longer were the rookie. Did you ever get the feeling or sense that you were no longer the rookie?” No, I guess it didn’t bother me. Interviewer: “So you just wanted to play baseball?” Exactly, that’s all I wanted to do. I just wanted to play ball. I was a pretty good punter in football. 18:29 Interviewer: “You had played before with the Catholic Youth Group, but now you’re playing in professional baseball and I would imagine there’s a few more fans in the stands, how were the fans?” Oh yeah, but we had a lot of fans in CYO. It was a small town and that’s all you had to do in the evening, we always played at night, so people from work, this was there entertainment. We had a semi-pro baseball team, boys, but they only played on Sundays, so during the week we played and we drew a pretty big crowd. 19:00 Interviewer: “So you were used to the fans?” Well not ten thousand like the fans they had Interviewer: “Was that at all intimidating to you, the fact that there were that many people?” Not at all, I loved the fans. That’s why I liked third base because I could talk to them like Rosie O’Donnell, I was one of those with the fans and I always loved to talk to them. Interviewer: “How was that? I remember from the movie that happening, but did you actually talk to people during the game?” Not during the game, no, no, but right after or before mostly before and you would sign autographs. You never refused because you knew they paid for your work. 19:52 7 �Interviewer: “Was there a mixture in the audience or was it mostly men or women?” Amazingly and what was amazing, lots of young men and that amazed me. Same thing with these autograph sessions—that really amazes me—young man, what do you want my old autograph for? Like I said today, lots of historians are young men and they collect a lot of memorabilia. Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights that you can remember from your first season, the first time out?” First season—well, that we were in the playoffs, we were in the play offs and so I had— well, you know I was supposed to be back in school after Labor Day, that’s when school started, so I thought that was going to be a big problem, but the superintendent liked me and he said, “Oh well, women don’t ordinarily get an education anyhow, so you might as well just go and as long as you have good grades”, and that was the thought because the women over there hardly anybody went to college at that time. You’re talking about the fifties and the philosophy over there was that women get married, have kids and are in the kitchen making meals or working on the farm. 21:22 Interviewer: “But you got to play baseball.” Yes I did. Interviewer: “So the first season you did the playoffs. Did you play in the games?” Oh Yeah, and I called the superintendent and he said to go ahead and he was really nice, he understood, but I only missed like two weeks as long as I made it up, but then I came back and spring training was like the first of May and we were going to Newton, North Carolina in 1952. I approached him as soon as I found out, which was in February, and he said, “Okay, this next semester, I notice your conduct is going down and if you can get your conduct up you’re allowed to go”, so I had to button up a little. 22:21 Interviewer: “Shall we get into the conduct part of this or not?” I was a prankster and I got that from my brother. Interviewer: “So no more pranks?” No, I was an angel believe me. It was hard but--Interviewer: “So the first season when you came back from playing, what was the reaction, you say it was a small town, what was the reaction from your family, from the town, were you treated differently?” Well, in a way I was and they were very happy because after that we had spring training and the teams came through, like I said, that one night with Kenosha, Wisconsin and Fort Wayne released me to play with them and I pitched in front of my home town and we had 8 �three thousand people and our town was only two thousand five hundred, so the neighboring people came and baseball was very popular. My brother played for Minster, so we played against each other one time. 23:22 They treated me perfect and I was a star. Interviewer: “So you got past the rookie status even though you didn’t feel that way, but you got past that and now we’re going into 1952 and it’s your second season. Tell us about that, was there anything different about coming to play” Oh yeah, we heard that Jimmy Foxx was the manager, the Jimmy Foxx, he was like Babe Ruth and we thought wow, you know we’re playing under this guy? He was super nice just unbelievable, he couldn’t believe it that the girls were so good and coming from him you had to be pretty good. He was just—he was like a second dad to me, we really clicked and he brought me in from outfield and he said, “you’re going to play third base because you got that arm and that long distance”, so I had accuracy, that was the biggest thing and then he was running out of pitchers and they didn’t have savers or what they have now days, and so I would also pitch and because I had accuracy and fast ball was my main pitch. 24:58 Interviewer: “Tell us about being the pitcher, what was the strategy there? Did you have many different types of throws?” No, I didn’t have very many—I didn’t have a curve ball, knuckle ball or anything like that. All I had was a fast ball and then I found out from the other pitchers that if you slowed it down a little, different speeds, change up would throw the batters off, which I noticed some did because we had a lot of good pitchers and if they changed up, my gosh, you were way ahead waiting for that fast ball to come in and you would strike out. I tried it and it really worked for me and also my catcher was very, very intelligent, she knew all of the players and what they liked—inside ball, outside ball and since I was so accurate, because I had really worked on accuracy, I think I hit one person ever and I felt so bad I never threw another inside pitch. 26:04 That was mostly it and I think my ERA speaks for itself because I think I only lost two games the second year. Interviewer: “Was there a difference, in terms of your playing, between the first manager and then when Jimmy came in, did you feel that you played better?” I played better because Jimmy was a hitter and I loved to hit the ball. I remember one time I was up to the plate and he said, “Gosh, did you live on a farm and milk cows?” I thought, “Wow, does it show?” I was thinking about smelling the manure and all that and thought, “wow” and he said, “no, because I was on a farm and you got a wrist action like a farmer”, like milking cows because that’s where I got my wrist action. 27:00 I thought, “way to go”, and I hated to milk those cows and here it was the greatest thing I ever did. I’ll never forget that though because I looked at him and I thought, “wow”, I thought maybe I looked like a farmer, I didn’t know. 9 �Interviewer: “Did he actually show you specific things to do that maybe you had not done before, techniques and things like that?” He just told me that I was a natural, a natural hitter and my last—1954 I was only eighteen or nineteen years old and I was batting three twenty eight and that was my final batting average. 27:41 Interviewer: “52”, are there any highlights that you can think of? You mentioned having a new manager and that was a big thing, but in terms of plays, in terms of games you may have played, is there anything that sticks out from that year?” I played more, I played a lot of games, I was in every game, except when I pitched, and normally he gave me a night or two off. I also played different positions if somebody got hurt, like second base, he would put me in or first base, whatever-- because again, we heard rumors that pretty soon there wouldn’t be girls baseball, but we just thought they were rumors because Fort Wayne did real well, but South Bend, Studebaker went out, so they were no longer there and that really affected the crowds in South Bend. 28:34 Interviewer: “We’ll get back there in a minute, but I want to get back to the idea that Jimmy was having you go to different position. Was that unusual? Did all of the girls have that ability—just put them here, put them there?” A few, just a very few. Most of them just had their regular positions, like Dotty Schroeder, she would always play shortstop. I never saw her play any other position. Willy Briggs, left field, Tybee Eisen, center field—the outfielders were sort of set. Interviewer: “You were kind of, for Jimmy anyway, if he really needed somebody.” Oh yeah, he could rely on me and besides he didn’t like me on the bench. 29:20 Interviewer: “So now the second year—how were the crowds the second year? Still the same numbers?” Fort Wayne was great, the same numbers. People really—and we didn’t get harassed at all, called “tomboys” or anything like that. Those people—well, the early forerunners in the forties set the tone and we didn’t have any problems. Everybody else knew that it was still a men’s game, but we never got any kind of harassment call or you know. 29:57 Interviewer: “Now the first year and the second year, you were going on the road too, right?” Yeah Interviewer: “So, what were the road trips like?” 10 �Oh, they were excellent, we would get in the bus and everybody would try to get in the back of the bus, but they were excellent and we would start singing our songs and everything like that and South Bend wasn’t too far, but in Rockford, Illinois we would leave after the game and all night and get there maybe like four o’clock in the morning, go to the hotel and sign in at the hotel. Again, we wouldn’t play or be at the ballpark until four o’clock, so normally we took in a movie. 30:42 That was normally it and after the game we had two hours before our curfew and we would have to be in because the manager was right there and the chaperone was right there and we knew when to come in. 30:56 Interviewer: “You hadn’t traveled very much in terms of from your childhood and now you’re traveling. Did you get an opportunity to spend any time in the towns that you went to other than to see a movie or something?” Well, sometimes, but not really, but spring training, that was my first spring training and we got to go to Newton, North Carolina and I got my first train ride and I was excited. Then when I went down south they had a whole different language, you know that drawl and especially in Newton, North Carolina I remember people would---and I was playing outfield and there was one kid in the stand near right field and he said, “hey Yankee go home”, and I said, “Yankee, I’m a Reds fan”, and he said, “communist”, and I thought, “what is this?” 31:48 I had no idea, but we made it and it was nice. People treated us great, but again the food was different you know, hominy and grits, hominy and grits, oh yuck. I was use to cereal, bacon, eggs and stuff like that. They didn’t have it; they had hominy and grits everyday. I used to go across the street and get a hamburger. 32:21 Interviewer: “Where in the south did you go?” Newton, North Carolina and played around, like another team like Kenosha or another team that would train there. We would stay at a big boarding house, one team, and again we were not allowed to fraternize with another team, so even though they stayed down a block or whatever, we weren’t allowed to talk to them. After the game we never shook hands or say, “nice game”, because they thought we would throw the game or something, I don’t know what their thinking was. That was also in the men’s though and actually it still is, but the media now is so great that they have to talk back and forth. I think that’s what happened. 33:05 Interviewer: “So, after your second season, were you making fairly decent money by that time?” Oh yes, at that time I was making seventy dollars. I went up twenty dollars. Interviewer: “What were you doing with the money?” Well, I saved my money and I paid for my own—well, we didn’t have too much book money then for school and I was still in high school, but I paid for my own clothes and everything like that and the rest I just saved until I could buy a car. Interviewer: “Were you sending money home?” 11 �No, not really, I kept my own. My mom let me keep it, she said, “you’re in charge”, so I put it in the bank. Interviewer: “That’s great. Now, 1953—I know, of course we all know now that we’re getting to the end of the league although, you didn’t know it.” It just never dawned on us, we just thought it was rumor, but 1953 was a good year. Bill Ellington was my manager, and again we went down south and played ball and I was use to that and the train and that was to me like having an airplane ride. I got on the all-stars for third baseman and won the all-star game by pitching up to the thirteenth inning, I think I pitched from the ninth inning to the thirteenth and we won the game four to three. 34:49 Interviewer: “How does one get chosen for the all-star game?” They take everybody in the league and compare their averages and everything with everybody else—hitting, fielding, so I played more third base then because what threw me off on the other years was because I also pitched, so I had double duty, but I was hitting well, I hardly had any errors and they brought me on the all-star team. 35:27 Interviewer: “What was your reaction when you found out?” I was ecstatic, but I didn’t know I was going to end up pitching in the game you know. Interviewer: “Mostly you’re a third baseman.” I was chosen for third base and then he needed a pitcher because it was extra innings and he put me in because he knew I was accurate, so I went in pitching and won the game. My roommate hit the home run to win the game. 35:53 Interviewer: “Tell us about the game.” Oh, it was exciting and there’s a picture in one of the books that somebody wrote. I was just so happy, my roommate and I, we had big headlines in the paper. Interviewer: “Walk us through the game. How did it open up? How was the beginning, the first inning?” Well, we always start it with the opposing team lining up on third base and we were on first base V for victory, we always honored the veterans and the American flag, the whole ball of wax just like the regular ball games and I was playing third base and you’re asking me who we played, but it was the second team that was next to us, that’s who we had to play. All the other all-stars, Fort Wayne, we were in first place, so I played with Fort Wayne and we played against the all-stars, so our team playing against Fort Wayne as the 12 �all-stars. We beat the all-stars and like I said, we were very young. A lot of us were young and I think the oldest one was twenty-five, so anyway, it was thrilling. 37:18 Interviewer: “How did the game open? How were the first few innings? Was it a slam-dunk from the beginning? Well it was—nobody could get a hit. I think Winsch pitched and she was good, so she pitched and she was the number one pitcher and she was excellent. She had curve balls, drop balls, you name it, and she was good. Interviewer: “How did you do against her?” I think I did all right; I had two for four, so I thought that was pretty good. Interviewer: “How was the middle of the inning? Were you still going?” Oh, we were battling; it was a terrific game for the fans because they just enjoyed it. It probably was the longest game you know, we didn’t have all these gizmos like helmets to put on and knee wraps or anything like that. It bothers me and I noticed somebody said our games were two hours or two and a half hours and that game was like three hours and that was really long and like I said, we speeded it up because we didn’t have all that although, our pitching style is totally different from what they do now. 38:31 I had a full wind up going like this then throwing the ball in. Interviewer: “So when was the moment when it really determined the game was going to go your way?” Well, not until Jeanne hit the home run. I mean it was deadlocked and it looked like we were going to be there all night until Jeanne Geissinger hit the home run and we were in happyville. Interviewer: “That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful—when that was over, and the season was over and when you went home, was there a different reaction this time?” 39:10 Well, we got in the playoffs, but we never won the playoffs for some odd reason, I don’t know what it was—just tired, so actually it started the beginning of 1954 when we went to spring training we came through Ohio and some games in all of these little towns that would bring the fans, so they would look for the players and another town that was pretty good and semi-pro teams were there, so we played in my home town. My nephews came out, they were just little like four or five years old and I played against my brother. That’s when we played against the men and the men would pitch against the men and the women would pitch against the women and then we beat them. 40:11 That was terrific and like I said, there were like—there’s only like two thousand five hundred in our town and I think there was a crowd of two thousand eight hundred and that was terrific because I pitched and I won. 13 �Interviewer: “You said your cousins, were other members of your family there?” No, my nephews and my brothers were there and my family and of course all my classmates. I was pretty nervous and that’s the only time I remember being really nervous because everybody was counting on me. 40:53 Interviewer: “What about the catholic… was it the priest?” Yeah, he was there and he was praying for me. Interviewer: “That must have been a pretty proud moment for you.” Yes, very emotional and everybody talked about that game. They had flyers out, Katie Horstman and Armstrong Airport which is just five miles down the road took a plane and threw out flyers saying that we were coming into town. 41:23 Interviewer: “Do you remember after the game whether the father came up to you? Did he?” I think he came to the Wooden Shoe Inn, which is a big restaurant right in town and they treated us to a chicken dinner. They were famous for chicken dinner and he came and was very proud of me. Interviewer: “He had to be considering the fact that he started the game when you were there.” He’s still living and I still go back there and see him. He does mass every once and a while and he’s retired, but excellent. Interviewer: “Wow, wow, we should send him a copy of this.” Oh yeah, he would love it. His name is Father Shuey, ordained and handsome, everyone went out for CYO. I never even knew half the kids could play you know. I think about fifty kids came out and we couldn’t take care of fifty and we ended up with twenty. 42:18 Interviewer: “So, are there any other highlights from 1953 that you can think of?” Just that I was becoming more involved and playing more games, like everyday unless I pitched and I would get time off and my batting average kept going up, I think it was like two eighty nine, but again the ball was a little bit bigger than the regular ball. Now, coming into 1954 they couldn’t find those balls anymore and they weren’t going to make them because they didn’t know if the league was going to fold in the middle or when, so they didn’t want all these balls, so then we played with a regular baseball. Oh my god how easy, I mean girl’s hands are smaller then men and I could grip that ball, wow, and 14 �hit it. 43:14 We were hitting home runs galore, so it was the best thing that ever happened. Bill Allington became our coach and he was strict. When we went on the road, he would have thirty questions and you better read that rulebook and you better answer them right or you had laps to run. He was strict, which was very good and I believed in discipline. I had discipline from my mom and dad and of course with eight kids you have discipline. I had nuns in school although, it was a public school, Precious Blood where the father came in, and they were strict, with rulers, the ruler sisters, and when I came into baseball and saw all those rules—I was born with discipline, so I didn’t mind it. Although, you always try to see if you can beat the system, right? 44:21 Interviewer: “So, coming into 1954 was the atmosphere at all different in terms of either the moral of the teams?” No, except that we were all praying that it wouldn’t end because then they kept—like in the middle of the season they said they didn’t think it was going to continue because they couldn’t afford it and you know, different ownerships of different teams. Fort Wayne was great, For Wayne was solid, but the other teams—television came in and people would go to see the guy’s play and we also, couldn’t find girls. We had like Jr. Daisies, Blue Sox, and Jr. Blue Sox similar to a minor league team and they were anxious to come up, but we didn’t have enough of them. They only had like two teams and they would play against each other in each town. 45:21 Interviewer: “How about the fans, was there any difference? I don’t mean about being enthused or anything like that, but number?” Well, that went down because they were watching television. They had more things to do and in wartime it was very restricted like gas rationing and all of that stuff, so that was no more and they could go place and you know, more things to see. Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you a question that at the time you might not have been able to answer, but I’ll just pose it anyway. Was there anytime up until 1954 that you actually thought this would be a career you would be doing? You were a really young girl.” 46:07 Oh I know, I was just getting in my prime. No, I thought it would last forever. To me I prayed everyday that it would last forever, but after 1954, most people don’t know, but then Bill Allington got a group of us, eleven of us, twelve with him, two cars and we went all over the United States, except for the east, and we played against the men. We had a bookie out of Omaha, Matt Pascal was his name, and he would get the schedule maybe two weeks ahead of time so we would know. We would play a game, go to the next town, play another game and we had a hundred and ten games, the same as we did for the Daisies. We played every day, but we had to travel. You only had a duffle bag, that’s all you could have, your uniform and whatever. We were always in the laundry room, but like I said, we weren’t like the Silver Bullets, like Phil Niekro did, they played against the men. 47:13 At that time that never would have worked because nobody would come to the game and we didn’t want to say that, “hey, we’re stronger and better than you”, the men, although a lot of times we were except when we played the triple A 15 �teams, the semi-pro teams, they were good, but we had their pitcher and catcher and they would pitch against them and we would pitch against the girls, so we won most of our ball games. Every four o’clock we would advertise, beside the posters that we had, that map. We would go in the fire truck and run around town in the fire truck telling people that the game was at seven o’clock they would announce it. It was thrilling and I saw the whole United States except for the east. 47:55 That was wonderful to me because I loved traveling. Interviewer: “This is after 1954 though?” This is after 1954—55,56,57 we did that for three years. Interviewer: “Let’s go back to 1954 though, when did you find out and how did you find out that it was over?” Well, I think it was after the play offs and then they said, “count on not being here next year. I think that we may not have teams”, and we all knew that was the end 48:34. Interviewer: “What was the reaction?” The reaction was very, very sad, we counted on it, especially the very young ones, and we were just getting into our prime. I thought, “my god, what are we going to do? We got to work”. That was our biggest reaction, what are we going to do? Here I just got out of high school and I thought, “wow, not I got to look for a job”, so that was most of us, we were very, very upset. 49:09 Interviewer: “How was your last year though playing?” My last year, my god, I batted three twenty eight, I think, and pitched and won I don’t know how many games, but it was excellent because I loved that little baseball you know. The size changed to a regular baseball and it was tremendous you know. You just could hit it harder, throw it harder, everything, I just enjoyed it. When I was a kid playing with my brothers that’s the ball we used and I was use to it, so it came back and I was very happy about it. 49:49 Interviewer: “Any highlights that you can think of from 1954? What really sticks out to you that may have been the big ones?” Well, just my hitting, I hit a lot of home runs and I was a long ball hitter because I didn’t like sliding in the short skirts. I did that once at second base and oh my god that hurt. I always made sure I get a single, a double, a triple or a home run. I wanted to make sure I would get to that base without sliding. Interviewer: “You say you went through three years of playing with this kind of team that was kind of put together after the end.” Yeah, Bill Allington and we had spring training—like we went to Arlington, Texas, that’s where we had our first spring training and we played amongst ourselves first to warm up 16 �and then we played all the teams coming through Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico you know, he had them all booked for us. 50:55 Interviewer: “This is still professional ball though and you’re still getting paid?” Oh yeah, we changed our name to All American that was it, All American Girls Professional Baseball rather than saying Fort Wayne Daisies or something like that, but we had the same uniforms. Interviewer: “What did you end up doing after you—did you continue to play baseball after three years or what?” Well, I was in Fort Wayne, Indiana and I didn’t want to go back to school because it was so much fun it sort of spoiled me from going to get my education or further my education you know, so three of us rookies went to the cookie factory in Fort Wayne, Archway I think it was called, and anyway two days was like an eternity and I couldn’t take it anymore watching the cookies and besides I would have gotten thrown out because we started throwing cookies you know, we were bad and we didn’t like that kind of work. I went right to IUPU extension and signed up—I’m going back to school, so I started college at IU Purdue. 52:03 Ernie, I can’t think of his last name now, Ernie Burns or Ernie anyway, he was the general manager for the Daisies and he was also the general manager for the Fort Wayne Comets hockey team, and so I needed a part time job while I was going to school ,so he signed me up that I could work in the office with the tickets and I got to meet all the players and stuff and went to the coliseum. It was great and I had a good part time job and went to school, to college. I did that for two years and then—gosh I don’t know what I did afterwards, after school, anyway, I was twenty-five years of age. 53:00 When I was twenty-five years of age I went to medical records--oh, I worked at Burnham City Hospital and stayed with Dotty Schroeder’s parents and I went part time to Illinois State University then and came back and worked at Burnham City Hospital for a year in admissions because I was always interested in medicine and everything and I was sort of in pre-med. Then the medical record librarian came to me and she said, “you can make a lot more money being in medical records”, so I talked with her and sort of worked with her on weekends and everything. 53:38 I went to St. Elizabeth’s Hospital in Danville, Illinois and spent a whole year with the Franciscan Sisters of Sacred Heart from Mokena, Illinois and she was our instructor and only ten people could enter the school and you had to have two years of college and then a year of practice at the hospital to become a Registered Medical Records Librarian. 54:09 They were making good money, like a hundred dollars a week, and at that time it was super money, so I was all for that, but then I got to know the sisters and I thought they were super, and then I got a calling to go to the convent, so two days after I graduated from there I entered the Franciscan Sisters of the Sacred Heart in Mokena, Illinois. I went to the convent, was a nun five years, it was really a nursing order except for some elementary schools, so the reverend mother decided to have a Sacred Heart Academy, a high school and she didn’t want any lay people and she understood that I played baseball and she asked me if I wanted to be a phys-ed teacher, well she didn’t ask me you just did it—some more discipline for me. 55:04 So I went to DePaul, Loyola and Illinois—I 17 �don’t know, it was another university there because I needed drivers ed and DePaul didn’t have driver ed, so I went to that other college and got my driver ed and went to DePaul and graduated from there in 1965. I taught at the academy because I had two years of college I could do that in that private school and I taught in a private academy and the girls were super. 55:44 Interviewer: “Did the girls know? Did you let them know?” Well, later on they found out—DePaul grads you know, my picture was in the Sun Times with my habit playing soccer, so I made headlines. I also got in a lot of trouble with those state students because I would—one day I drove the reverend mother into town and I could drive because I was I was older. Most nuns who were becoming nuns were under twenty-five, like eighteen, nineteen, twenty and she knew I could drive since I was teaching drivers ed anyhow. I had to drop her off downtown and I went up town to Fullerton Avenue to DePaul University and the state student saw that I had a car, a big Cadillac, you know people give stuff to the religious, so eleven o’clock came around and they said, “hey Sister John Anthony, (that was my name) hey, let’s go to the baseball game today the Cubs are playing”, and I said, “Cubs, yeah, but who are they playing?” And they said, “The Reds, the Cincinnati Reds”. Because I was always talking about Reds, Johnny Bench, Pete Rose and I said, “I can’t go, I don’t have any money and I don’t think I’m allowed to go and I don’t think the reverend mother would like it”. 57:09 “We’ll never tell, you don’t need money and we’ll pay your way in”, and I thought, “ oh gosh, should I or shouldn’t I? Well, what can it hurt, kids want to go”, so guys and gals, we all piled in the car, I think I had ten of them and the Cubs ball park wasn’t too far from Fullerton Avenue, so I wouldn’t use much gas, so we come up there, the parking is horrendous, so I went right up there and he said, “hey lady what are you trying to do?” And I said, “I want to know where I can park?” he saw my habit and he said, “oh, sister the vice president isn’t here today, so you can park right here. Wow, the co-eds, “way to go Sister John Anthony”, and I was a hero. 57:57 He said, “do you have tickets?” I said, “tickets, I don’t even have any money”, and he said, “well he wasn’t going to be there, so we could have his box seats”, so here I was, I was a hero. I mean I felt so good. The Cubs were beating the Reds you know, so the ninth inning, the Reds and I was going “way to go Cincinnati”, and I’d get all excited. I didn’t think anything about it—came down, went and took them back to school ok, picked up reverend mother. The Archbishop came into town, new Archbishop, so she had to meet him or something, so we went back to Mokena and during vespers, it was just after six o’clock we would pray the vespers, and all at once I get this tap on the shoulder and it’s the reverend mother. We went out in the hall and she said, “Where were you this afternoon?” I said, “why? You know I was at DePaul University I had things to do, study, went to my classes and everything. 59:04 She said, “then how come I saw you on television cheering for the Reds?” I never thought about it and I said, “mother, we’re not allowed to watch television”, and she said, “the Archbishop was in town and I met with him and she was on television. They interrupted the program saying that one of your nuns was cheering the ball game”. Well, she didn’t like that too well and that was only one incident, so anyway in 1965 left the convent before my final vows. Then I worked at the medical records library in Dyer, Indiana and then taught in Gary, Indiana the next following and 18 �spent my summers and a year at Miami University in Ohio because I got my masters degree and if you taught there your education was free at the college. :08 I took a big deduction coming from Indiana to Ohio, but it all worked out the same. I got my masters then I worked five years teaching phys-ed and science at Kendallville Jr. High in Kendallville, Indiana. Then I came back to my home town, that’s when title nine was trying to come out, 1972 to 1975, so I became the phys-ed teacher there and actually jr. high school and high school that’s all I would have, but I said, “why do you want to start a program in jr. high? Why don’t you start it?” Illinois has a super phys-ed program, they still do, they have phys-ed every day from the first grade to the twelfth, but these other states don’t have that, once a week or whatever, and Minster, my home town, didn’t even have a phys-ed program for the elementary. They only had jr. high and freshman and sophomore and I said, “What do you want to do that for? Start with the little kids”, so I did, I had the whole nine classes per day; I really loaded myself up, but stayed there a long time. 1:23 So then the teams started coming out where we could play state tournaments and that’s what I wanted, I wanted to be a coach, I had a great desire. So we had track the very first thing in Ohio and that was in 1975, so we had a track team and came in runner up in the state. The kids didn’t know anything about running. They had no idea what a discus or a shot put looked like because we didn’t have boys track either, until we started the girls track program. Then we were very successful, 1976 through 1980 we were the state champs in our division, three divisions in track, and then 1982, 1985 and 1989, so we got eight state track titles and they talked me into cross country. The first year, 1982, the girls, state champions, so I was very successful in that. 2:23 The town loved me and I loved them, that’s why I go back there all the time. Interviewer: “You stayed in sports, of course you stayed in education, stayed in sports, when did you start to realize that other people were recognizing what you had done when you were just a teenager in your early days with the All American Girls. Was there a time when you started to realize that people were knowing about that?” You mean as far as playing baseball? Interviewer: Yes Well, it was sort of dead because we all went our own way, we communicated, and I communicated with the Weaver sisters and Dotty Schroeder and some of the others. We always wrote Christmas cards, that was one thing we always did. To our teammates, but eventually that falls apart too, so until they started the reunion and I think that was in 1982, it was forty years after we quit, well, yeah forty years I think. 3:40 We met in Chicago for reunion, everybody was sort of hesitant, like in the movie, should I go or shouldn’t I, I probably won’t recognize anybody, but everybody remembered the voices or the walk or whatever and it was hilarious you know. “Is that really you?” Because everybody changed so much and got so much older. The people that were twenty were in their sixties—grey hair, white hair and thank God we had name tags. Once we got use to it all these memories flowed back, but that was one heck of a nice thing to do. 4:27 19 �Interviewer: “You look back on that period of time as just part of the evolution, I imagine, of your becoming the person that you are now. That was just one part of it right? When did you realize that other people were looking at that period as something very unusual and very special? Am I making myself clear?” Oh yeah, first of all there wasn’t professional baseball for women—ended, it’s the only time in history that was an organization where you got paid and professional. Jo Weaver was a super runner, but she couldn’t enter the Olympics because the Olympics at that time was amateur, so she couldn’t go to Olympics and she could have made it easily. We had to understand that from that period until about 1970, girls athletics were taboo except for CYO, anything voluntary, GAA, Girls Athletic Association, that’s all that kids had. 5:35 When I came back to Minster I thought, “wow, these kids don’t have anything, at least I got something playing baseball and I got an education and I was taught in Illinois where the phys-ed system is super”. I never played soccer or field hockey or anything like that, so I came back there and I wanted to give something back to my town where they appreciated me and so I started the whole program. 6:04 Interviewer: “Looking back on that period, and you have a lot of things to smile about, do you think that particular period had an affect on you and the person you are today? You were a teen and a young girl at that time. Was there anything that happened then that you can look back on and say, “That helped me get here?” What I did then, I wanted my girls in Minster to feel the same way that I did, that they had an opportunity, they got a chance, “ok girls let’s go out”. It wasn’t easy , now you’re talking about Germans, and the boys were still on one side of the room and girls were on the other side. Phys-ed was still segregated; girls only, boys only and boys had a hard time with it. 7:03 We didn’t as much and I was very fortunate to have some super athletes that didn’t even know it because they never had a chance. I know how they felt because I thought I was going to be stuck on the farm. I thought, “whoa, we gotta do something”, and if we do something great people and if you have discipline—I put rules out, no drinking, no this or you’re suspended, I didn’t even give them one chance. I said, “this is it, if you want this we’re going to have to do it right and get on top immediately”, so that’s what we did. 7:37 Like I said, “My athletes do it now because they’re continuing my tradition over there because we twenty-three titles in that town and one title for boys”. We showed them. Interviewer: “Thank you so much, it was wonderful and you were wonderful.” I don’t know, but I did get in five halls of fames with Annie Oakley, who was one of my idols, The Ohio Women’s Hall of Fame with Doris Day and I was real happy about that and of course and the National Track Coach Hall of Fame and the Ohio Track Hall of Fame and in the Western Buckeye League. 20 �21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_KHorstman Title A name given to the resource Horstman, Katie (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Horstman Katie Description An account of the resource Katie Horstman was born on April 14, 1935 in Minster, Ohio. Before joining the All American Girls Professional Baseball League she played baseball with her brother John. She started playing softball with the Catholic Youth Organization (CYI). At 15, Horstman started her professional career when Max Carey signed her to play for the Fort Wayne Daisies. In her first season of 1951 she played for the Kenosha Comets and the Fort Wayne Daisies as a pitcher and outfielder. Under Coach Jimmy Foxx in 1952, During her second season, in 1952 she played under Jimmy Foxx who switched her to play as a utility infielder. In 1953, she played for the Fort Wayne Daisies and the All Star Team as a third baseman and pitched part of an all-star game. Her biggest highlight was finishing her final season with a batting average of three twenty eight just as the All American Girls Professional League was ending. Afterwards, Horstman went on to become a Physical Education teacher. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Indiana Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87f9f709762b06e5b8c39f0fb8487e7e.mp4 1abcbc02dd4ca54e5711968b8b535dfa https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8a7c7451ee4fe9215968d2234e1bea9.pdf 8eab3cbbe6004f009ad1fd5aee69e96d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Jacqueline Baumgart Length of Interview: (01:28:17) Interviewed by: Frank Boring, Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 20, 2010 Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” Hard. Interviewer: “In what way?” It was very hard. We were eight and I was the youngest of eight and I did not have a father, so the whole time during the depression was very, very difficult. Interviewer: “What did your mother do to support you?” She did washing clothes, ironing clothes, house cleaning. That’s what she knew how to do and in those days—women, that’s pretty much what they did with a fifth grade education. Interviewer: “What was school like before high school?” 1:38 Before high school, I got into trouble a lot because I wanted to play ball and I wanted to kick the ball and play ball and do what all the boys were doing. I grew up with boys, brothers, and so I tagged along, a few feet behind, but I tagged along. We played a lot of softball and scrub games and that’s how I learned how to play and whenever they didn’t have enough players, they let me play. 2:17 I was little, I was very, very little and when they let me play, they put me in the outfield because they didn’t have to shag the ball and then I learned how to throw very long and hard because I was throwing the ball back in and that’s how I really learned how. By playing with the boys, it gave me an opportunity to develop physically, because, like I said, I was very, very small. 2:57 Interviewer: “The town you grew up in, was it a very big town or was it a small town?” It was a small town. Waukegan is located between Milwaukee and Chicago and very near there was the Great Lakes Training Center and not too far from there was Fort Sheridan and so, it was just a small town and in fact very close to Kenosha, where I wound up playing and about the same size. 3:30 Interviewer: “How about high school, how was high school for you?” High school was very, very interesting. I moved to Milwaukee in March of 1942. 1 �Interviewer: “Your whole family?” No, I had a sister living in Milwaukee and two of my brothers went into the service and mother had received a widow’s pension and that kind of decreased a little bit when they went into service, so I moved to Milwaukee to live with a sister and from there, which was a great thing because that helped me develop differently than what I would have in Waukegan. I had playgrounds to play on. 4:16 You couldn’t play in the schools in competition, but we could play on the playgrounds in the summer and I fortunately—the alley behind the house had a common fence, with the alley and the playground and so when my sister asked me to take the garbage out, I said “sure”, because I took the garbage out and I was gone. That’s how I started and there were two gentlemen that had worked with the Milwaukee recreation department and the playgrounds had directors and one was Bunny Brief and one was Jack Chlossa, both professional ball players, because we were going from playground to playground, and they said, “I think we’ll take you out to West Allis”, which is a suburb, because they had a fast pitch softball league there. They took me out there and I got on the team right away— Interviewer: “Now by team—is this a girls team?” 5:25 A girls team. I finally found that I was good at something, because you don’t know, you’re always playing with the boys and it’s a different kind of competition when you do that. The boys say that you are only a girl and I had to live through that and that develops a certain kind of tenacity in you and so when I went to West Allis, they had about eight softball teams, fast pitch, and the first year that I was there, we won the state championship. My mother came into town and it was the first and only game that she saw was winning, winning my first championship. 6:17 One to nothing on a balk. That’s the kind of close competitive games that I was learning all the while. Interviewer: “Now, after the game, what did your mother have to say?” Not too much, she really—it was indifferent to her, she didn’t really know anything about sports, particularly women playing sport, and she just thought it was nice, everybody treated me nice, so that was her main important thought. She didn’t live with us in Milwaukee; she went back to Waukegan and was living there. 7:01 Interviewer: “What position were you playing by this time?” A catcher. Interviewer: “Were you always a catcher?” No, I was always everything and that’s how I grew up, to play every position. I played every position and I actually became a catcher during the wintertime when we were playing inside a gym with a different kind of ball—it was a little bit larger ball than a softball, it had an out seam to it and a little softer, I mean it wasn’t had at all and I was just playing in the outfield, but they all knew that I wanted to play and that I could play 2 �anywhere. At one point a pitcher wasn’t doing too good, so the catcher became the pitcher and then they said, “Well, who wants to catch?” All eyes came this was, I mean I didn’t have to say much of anything, so I went into catch, well, I dropped the first foul ball, “tip’ you know, and I realized that I had to keep my eyes open because you flinch and that’s an automatic response and I said, “I have to keep my eyes open”. 8:20 By the end of the game there was a foul ball and I caught it and from then on, I was a catcher. Those are the kinds of things that happen that lead you in a direction. Coming to Milwaukee, doing something like that as a catcher, staying a catcher, going out to West Allis, being pointed the way; it has an awful lot of importance for my development. 8:49 Interviewer: “Now how old were you at this time? This was still high school?” I was in—yes; I was about fifteen and a half, sixteen, something like that. Interviewer: “So you’re going to high school, you’re playing ball with this group? What happened next? Did you graduate from high school?” I graduated from high school and then I was working and playing out in WestAllis, softball, and we began to start playing baseball and we were playing in West Milwaukee, which is between West Milwaukee and West Allis in terms of property lines and during that time I was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. 9:54 Interviewer: “Did you know anything about this group prior to that?” I knew a little bit because some had started to come back from playing professional ball and we had to wait a year or two before you could play amateur again. I knew that they had played and I knew that Milwaukee had had a team. I became a knotholer because we didn’t have any money, nobody had any money and I was a catcher and another lady, Edna Shear, lived in Cedarburg another suburb and we both were scouted. I didn’t know, we didn’t know we were scouted and I got a card in the wintertime, close to winter, and it said to go to someplace in Pennsylvania or Newark, New Jersey. 10:53 I didn’t know that Edna had received a card and her card said Chicago was where she was supposed to go. Well, I wanted to play, so I borrowed some money, took a train and went to Newark, New Jersey all by myself and my world wasn’t any larger than from Waukegan to Milwaukee, which is about forty-five minutes away. 11:22 Interviewer: “Now, just previous to that, you’re still living with your sister.” Yes. Interviewer: “So, did you talk it over with her at all? Did you have anybody that you talked about going to New Jersey?” No, I just went. I borrowed money from a sister that was living in Waukegan and she was married to a dentist, so I figured they had a little bit of money and sure enough it was either fifty or sixty dollars that I borrowed. To go. 11:51 3 �Interviewer: “So you arrive in New Jersey, what was your first impression of New Jersey?” Big, huge—where do I put my foot next? Sounds are so different, very, very different. Speaking the English language was different—in “New Joyzee” you know, that was a little bit different, but I was met at the train by I think it was three, of the ball players and they were part of the recruiting and all of that. They took me to a gym, an inside gym, just like the movie and I tried out, I had my glove, a catche’rs glove, and we went up against the wall and then we went one by one and there was a black lady sitting next to me and she didn’t have a glove, so she asked if she could use my glove and I said, “ yes, but it’s a catchers glove”, and she said, “that’s ok”, so she went and she came back and I went and the three of them took me out to dinner after that because I was staying in a private home. 13:17 Interviewer: “The three originals that picked you up at the railroad station?” Yes. They were the only contacts that I had. They asked me, “was that your glove or her glove?” I said, “it was my glove”, and then they said, “Oh, we don’t do that”. That was my first introduction into how people felt about other people, because where I grew up in Waukegan, we were pretty much a mixed group and for me there wasn’t any kind of distinction when you were going to play ball or whatever, so that was very upsetting for me. 14:05 Interviewer: “In that particular gym, you mentioned yourself and then there was a black woman there too, were there other women there trying out? About how many?” There were probably twelve to fifteen or something like that. Interviewer: “But there was actually one black woman in there?” Yes, one black woman. Interviewer: “Wow, do you know what ever happened to her?” No. Interviewer: “After you had the dinner with the three, you went back to the host home and you stayed overnight, what happened next?” I just went to the train again and came back. One of the things that I just very well remember was going through the oil city in Pennsylvania—you could smell it—it’s a whole new smell, everything was so new and so different. 15:05 When you’re by yourself, you learn how to—what to accept and what not too. I’m a survivor of a lot of things and was attuned to a lot of things going on and very much a real experience. For one to grow up at that age, very impressionable and I take everything in, like you learn how to steal second or something. 4 �Interviewer: “Once you got back home to Milwaukee, was there another communication of some kind?” 15:57 Yes, before spring training I got another card and it said to go to South Bend, Indiana and I met about sixty girls there and we had a spring training. Spring training wasn’t easy it was very hard. Interviewer: “Tell us, first of all keep in mind, you were there and we weren’t, so I kind of want to visualize your arriving there were sixty girls there. Give us—take us there to spring training.” 16:29 Spring training—early in the morning and we would go until noon, we had a light lunch and only because I was thin, if they had a little extra couple of cups of ice cream they would say, “here you need this”, and we had a little bit of rest period because we ate and then it was all afternoon again until four o’clock, we never let up. We didn’t play an actual game, but it was like an infield practice. You went to a position or you said you wanted to go and you played that however the manager wanted it to go, because it wasn’t a game, it was—he was almost actually teaching us. He wanted to know what we really knew and how we would think and respond to the ball and other players and to managing, how we would respond to directions. 17:40 After that I was told to go to Racine to meet up with Rockford. Interviewer: “So, at spring training—I know a lot of these answers, but I still want to get it for the record. The spring training, you did not have a team yet, you were not on a team yet?” Not yet, no. Interviewer: “So the girls were all playing different positions to see which ones they could play well or not well and then a decision was made as to what team you’re going to play on?” Right. Interviewer: “What were you wearing during spring training?” 18:10 Just jeans and shorts depending on how warm it was. Interviewer: “But it wasn’t uniforms, just whatever you brought to play is what you wore?” Right. Interviewer: “So the spring training was completed and they let you know that you were now a?” I went to Rockford—actually Rockford was in Racine and so that’s where I went and I was there for a week and I was under the tutelage of Bill Allington, I learned more from him in one week than I did in all the time before. As we look back at it now it has to do with—we came with the skills and the professional men managers helped us become 5 �professionals. A lot of little things that you never think of, if you get into bad habits naturally in terms of batting and throwing. 19:14 Interviewer: “Give me an example of maybe one of the ones that you learned. You say that you learned more in that week, well, give me an idea, what did you learn?” One in particular, because I was a catcher and we would have an infield practice and all of a sudden he threw the ball down on the ground and I took that to be a bunt, which it was, so I hopped right after it I picked it up and I went like this and then I let it go and he did it again and I did the same thing and he said, “now what did you do that for?” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “you put your hand into the glove and then you throw the ball. That runner has got a whole step and a half on you.” You don’t think about those things when you’re just playing and learning a little bit, just a natural by osmosis thinking The managers we had playing fast pitch were good managers, but they weren’t teaching us anything. 20:18 They just taught us about some things as the game moved along. You really weren’t learning like we learned in the professional league and of course I listened. I did that all my life was to watch and listen and from that I learned an awful lot. Now the other thing was in hitting, I stood too far in the back and he said, “you got to move up a little bit and choke up a little bit. You got to be brave and go all the way down to the bottom of the bat. Just choke up a little bit because then you have more balance at the end of the bat. We have to learn to hit and bat according to our bodies what we can do and what we can’t do it isn’t all show. If you want to play, you play, you don’t act up.” 21:18 Interviewer: “Good advice” It is and he didn’t mean it in the sense of show off, he meant it in the sense of getting out of bad habits. Interviewer: “Let me ask you a question and this may sound like an unfair question and you don’t have an answer for it, but he’s a professional male baseball player and he’s working with you as a very young girl. Did you get any sense that he was treating you like a girl or treating you like a baseball player?” Like a baseball player, because he knew his positions as a manager and what it probably might have been like for him when he started out being a professional. It’s a transitional period and he knew how to do that. He also knew that you had to learn not only how to play, but the intricacies of the game, the whole game, the whole thing, whether you were catcher or first baseman, pitcher or an outfielder, you learned it all, everything that’s going on because three things, 1 is the ball, naturally, there is no play without the ball, 2nd is accuracy, if you’re going to play, you don’t just throw, you concentrate, not too hard, but you concentrate on where you’re going to throw that ball and the 3rd one is to think where you’re going to throw that ball, when are you going to throw the ball and to be ready to receive. 23:02 For him those were the three most important things. They are very, very basic, they don’t get anymore basic than that, and it will take you a long way. The other thing he pointed out was that you are on the field playing and the manager is watching all of this and the manager doesn’t miss a trick and so if you think you’re going 6 �to fluff off, it doesn’t work because the manager sees what you are doing and those are some of the little things that make you a professional ball player. 23:51 Interviewer: “Once the spring training was over with and you were chosen to be on the team, what was the process of getting your uniform and do you remember what it was like to see your uniform for the first time?” After that I was sent to Chicago, excuse me, the northern part of Chicago, and most of the girls I met in South Bend were there. They were choosing thirty girls to make up two teams, so that means that there are fifteen players on a team, that’s all we had. I was chosen as a Springfield Sally and only because we had the uniforms. They tried a team in Springfield and it didn’t work and the other team was called the Chicago Colleens because Chicago had a professional team. It wasn’t baseball, it was fast pitch softball and they set-up a perimeter and around that perimeter, we couldn’t play anywhere near there because it was an infringement, so they put us on a bus, thirty of us girls, the two women chaperones managers, a man manager, sometimes the business manager, and sent us all east of the Mississippi and into Canada. 25:28 I probably was one of the older ones and another Cuban girl was, I think, about twenty-four. I think I was going on twenty-one or something like that, but the others were all younger. What it was—it was a traveling team to gain experience playing professional baseball. In the towns that we played, they had charities that they gave money to and then to have tryouts. Every time we went someplace, there were tryouts and when we came back to Cleveland, I think it was, we just went home. 26:26 Interviewer: “So it was two teams of fifteen, traveling and playing each other?” Yes. Everyplace you were just playing each other, playing each other. You were actually getting back on the bus together, so you had the camaraderie of being on a team, but you would separate out and play each other?” Yes. That’s a learning process, a growing process because we were from all over the United States and Cuba. The whole experience is more than an experience. That’s how I look at it, it became a way of life because you ate baseball and played baseball, slept baseball, we went from one town to the next town and very seldom were we two nights in the same town. 27:30 We never read the write-ups you know. Interviewer: “Give me an idea, I know this might sound dull, but what’s the routine? You get up in the morning, you get on the bus, you go—walk us through a typical day when you go on one of those excursions and how it was.” Well, you know it depended on how late we got in from one town to the other, especially going in and through the mountains. Sometimes we would be like six in the morning coming in, so we went to bed. I went to bed early because I needed my eight hours. We would get up, we ate together in different restaurants and places and we then would rest because we couldn’t eat sooner than two hours before we were going to play, so that was kind of a restful time, lounging time, and that was a time when we weren’t in close proximities in what we were doing and we maybe went to a movie or something and 7 �chose different things. 28:53 We would then get dressed and ready to go onto the bus and the bus would take us to the ball park and then we would work out and I mean work out, and then play a game and shower, find a place to eat, travel, depending on how far we had to go, and the next day the same thing. 29:20 There was sometimes a little long time in a city depending on how far it was and what time was and how long it took to get there. We still had to take care of our own clothes. Interviewer: “Wash your own clothes and stuff, wow.” We would go to a Laundromat, but not the uniform. Interviewer: “How did the uniform get cleaned?” I don’t know--the managers took care of that. They took it to a Laundromat or where ever they could. 29:50 Interviewer: “What were the fans like?” Very good. In the towns that we were in, they had either a double A or a triple A team and the diamonds that we played on were good, which was a nice thing. Interviewer: “You were obviously getting locals that came out to see the teams. Did you have a lot of girls, women or men or was it more mixed?” It was mixed, more men than what they might have now because it wasn’t as popular and we were sort of an entertainment or a show of some kind and people wanted to see what we were all about. There was advance publicity and quite often we had more fans then the home team that played there because we were playing when they were out of town. 30:55 We would hear that and when we made a good play we were rewarded with—it was like a whole surprise for them to see that because we were very good and we came with the skills and we were naturals. We also exhibited the joy that we had in playing even though we played the same team all the time; we were still growing and learning. 31:30 Interviewer: “The two teams were they exactly the same or did you switch over and play catcher for one and then play catcher for another or was it always the same group playing against the same team?” Yes. Interviewer: “That makes sense, so once that was over with and you went back to Milwaukee, then what happened? What was the next stop in all of this?” I got a card. I got another card because all thirty of us were put in the “pot” so to speak and the teams told—this one and that one, and I was asked to go to Kalamazoo, Michigan, so I want to spring training there and Kenosha didn’t have a catcher at that time, so I was catching for Kenosha even though I belonged to Kalamazoo and after spring training Kenosha bought my contract, whatever that was, because when I signed the contract it was blank. You never knew what you were getting or anything else, you just signed the contract and you were going to play ball. 32:39 8 �Interviewer: “Now if you’re playing for two different teams, what was the uniform?” The same uniform except in a sense it was Kalamazoo and I’m trying to remember that part of it because I don’t remember it being any different. When I went to Kenosha, I had their regular uniform. Interviewer: “Now, on the touring team with the thirty of you, you were already a professional baseball player, but now with the new team, this is now the American— the league, so this is different, did you have any sense of going from this to this or were you just going to keep playing baseball?” 33:45 There was a little bit of that yes, because you’re coming into an already—a team that is in place, so there’s a lot of difference coming to a team than what we did, because we were all new to each other in terms of what we were going to do and this team was already in place. They already had their own ways of what they were doing and who they get along with, where they go and now we have a home place and then we have on the road, so your monies are different, you take care of your own stuff when you’re at home and on the road you get a per dium I call it. 34:35 We all got pretty much the same for that. Interviewer: “Well, as the newcomer into this team, how did you get along?” Quietly. Quietly in a sense of interaction. More quiet—you have a different manager, everybody has their own style, how they do things and I had to learn all that. It wasn’t too hard to learn it, but you had to learn the differences. Some managers manage a lot and some managers manage a little and they kind of let you play. It was about the same thing with the players because they’re older, not much, but they had been playing, so they have a couple of years under their belt and you’re a “rookie”, you’re a “rookie”. I still had to carry the bats and things. From my own growing up and my formative years, I learned how to understand where my place is wherever I am and whomever I’m with. 36:11 That part wasn’t too hard, I could read that and I knew that because I’m a survivor. You do make friends in the sense of hanging with some more than you do others and I think there were three or four “rookies” on the team in Kenosha, so we kind of hung together for a while. Interviewer: “Was there a point and I know this is kind of a difficult question because it’s so specific, you’re a “rookie”, was there a moment, was there a period of time when you felt like you were no longer a “rookie” and whatever you were doing the went, “oh, she’s good”? 37:05 I got a hit—see, I was a straight away hitter, I wasn’t a long distance hitter, partly because of my weight and you’re the catcher so you bat eighth and I smacked one over the second baseman’s head, because we were playing baseball rules now, we’re a bigger diamond, we’re not on the softball diamond and I got to first base and I said, “It’s about time”, and I remember it so distinctly and it’s a great, great feeling to do that. I didn’t 9 �throw anybody out at second, but I was pretty close a couple of times and that is a great moral builder for me anyway. 38:00 Interviewer: “You felt different, but did you notice a difference also from the other players that you were treated a little bit differently?” Sure, because we’re a team and that’s how you become a team is learning to play together and giving lots of kudos when they’re necessary and I never experienced any player getting down on a another player like, “what did you do that for?” You were the one that made the mistake, so there was none of that and most managers wouldn’t allow that. We learned how to be a team by practice and you practiced as hard as you played, you didn’t sluff-off. 39:04 For me as a catcher, one of the most marvelous things that can happen and the joy really comes out, is when we have infield practice and you “around the horn” as we called it, after a certain ply and then you “zip” to first, second, third, back, back down to second for the shortstop and over to first or the opposite, because when we played we ‘zipped” the ball, we didn’t just throw, we “zipped” it. 39:37 Interviewer: “Now by this time the charm school and all that had been over with or did you have to do that too?” No, I didn’t have to do that. Interviewer: “You knew about it or you heard about it though?” Yes, I heard a lot bout it. Interviewer: “What do you mean, you heard a lot about it?” Well, they would tell little stories about having to walk down steps with a book on your head and they thought how ridiculous. Well, how do you walk down the steps with a book on your head and a “Charlie horse”? It’s bad enough with just the book on your head. If you had a sore leg or something then—and the next time you walk down steps what are you looking at? You look down like this and you can’t keep a book on your head when you do that. That usually pretty much what they talked about and the etiquette part. They didn’t like—I eat like I eat like I eat and there were a lot of jokes about different things and we took it all in and it’s a part of the camaraderie, we had great camaraderie and we still do. 41:00 Interviewer: “Tell me about strawberries.” I didn’t do too much sliding because of my position in the batting order, but I did have some when I got on, they weren’t really strawberries, they were more or less things that—you know when somebody’s coming into home and sliding in home, we didn’t go head first, we had hook slides, so you had to—I learned from Mr. Allington, I learned because I was—I didn’t want to get bowled over, so what he taught me was to give him just a little corner and to turn sideways so that I don’t have the full force and you turn sideways because then you’re in a position to move your legs and go wherever you need to go after the ball, but there still were collisions and things like that because you don’t 10 �know where the balls coming from when you begin and I did get knocked over one time in pro, but it was just the nature of the game. 42:38 Very much how the play happened, developed and happened. There was nothing like foul play or anything like that; we purposely didn’t do those things. Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?” I’ll have to tell you, the first time I put that uniform on, I cried because what flooded in my mind was of this little kid at home playing with the boys and here I am—I get teary eyed just thinking about it because it was never a dream to become a professional ball player, the dream was to survive, the dream was to do the best you can in whatever you do—lit was like winning a game, when you win—oh, that’s great. This was my own kind of winning and I kind of stood there for a little bit after I was dressed and I said, “Ah, this is it, this is it”, and I never forgot that. 44:07 Interviewer: “So the actual design and all that didn’t bother you?” It did to some degree; it did all of us to some degree because we never played in a skirt fashion. It was all one piece, but it was a skirt on the bottom, there were no legs to go into, but you had to learn how to play with it, especially some of the pitchers when they would begin throwing side arm, it just gets in the way, so each one developed a way in which to fix their uniform either by shortening it a little bit. I had two tucks here and two tucks in the back so that it would fit comfortably. 45:04 They weren’t tight fitting at all because we didn’t like that and we didn’t want that at all. It was heavy, it was like heavy denim and very warm in the summer, in the hot summer, it was very, very warm. Interviewer: “You had talked about the fan of the traveling team, can you recall the fans of the team when you went pro?” 45:34 Yes, because there were fans that came all the time and there were some fans that came once in a while and some of the fans treated some of the ball players very well. A little money under the table or whatever, invited over to their houses for picnics and stuff like that if time provided for that, but we didn’t have too much time for that, but they were very, very good to us. The regulars were very good to us. 46:16 Interviewer: “You mentioned earlier about the traveling team, that it was a mixture of men and women and things, the professional team you played for, where the fans, the majority of them, men or women or what?” A few more women because we were in one place and they get to know you and they have favorites like any team does have favorites and we played excellent baseball. We weren’t just entertainment as we were in the beginning, we still were, but not to the extent, we did what the Brewers do today, but not to that extent. 47:13 Interviewer: “I understand what you’re saying. I think it is really important what you are saying, that you were still entertainment, but now you’re baseball players 11 �and their watching it for the baseball, professional baseball. In your first season you told about that one time that you whacked that ball out there, were there any other particular ones that you can recall that really stick out either on your end or what you saw?” 47:37 It had to do with the pitchers because I was little. I remember Jeanie Marlow in Kenosha, she had a screwball, it’s opposite of a curve and they don’t throw it very often, so anyway about the third batter, it was early in the season and a new team came in and I don’t even know who the team was, so I gave her the number one sign because that’s a fast ball and just plain ball and she shook it off and I was wondering what was going on, so I knew she didn’t want a curve, so I gave her number two and she shook it off and I gave her the change up and she shook it off and I gave her the screw ball and I just went through the whole thing and she kept shaking it off, so I called time and I went to see her and I said, “can you see the signs?” 48:45 She said, “oh yea, I can see the signs ok”, and I said, “can you see me ok?” We’re starting to loosen up and josh one another and I said, “what’s the problem?” She said, “Oh, I just wanted to confuse the batter”. Those are the moments of the different little things that one does in a professional league. Now that might not have happened with another pitcher, with another pitcher it might be something else or I might get a sign from a pitcher instead of me giving a sign to the pitcher. That didn’t happen very often though. 49:33 Interviewer: “When was it, maybe in your first season, or was it later, that you started to think that maybe this was going to be your career or did you even think that?” I never thought it; I was just doing what I loved to do. I just never thought of it. I came back to Milwaukee and I had to work. I did a little bit of coaching with some younger kids and played a little bit of slow pitch baseball. Interviewer: “There’s no comparison.” No, heavens no there isn’t, but that’s what was going on at that time and that went on to become a pretty popular thing, so I was staying in the activity of the game and then I got married and raised children. It isn’t that I didn’t think about playing professional ball, but we never talked about it. Bob knew when I married him, but we didn’t talk and I think that if you ask that question to everyone of us they would say the same thing. 50:53 We just went about our business, it was grand, beautiful and we didn’t have that sense that we were setting standards or overcoming barriers, we just did it. You really didn’t know the historical impact on things until much later and my three boys—I had a ten inch ball that was signed by the teams and it was upstairs, so they used the ball and used my glove, they couldn’t use my shoes of course, and I said, “oh, you can’t use that ball, can’t you see those signatures on there? That’s when I played professional”, and they said, “oh yea mom”. 51:50 Well, that was the opening of saying a little bit about what I did and I said, “well, I played professional ball”, and they said, “yea, yea”, you know how boys are, but they do know now and they’re very proud of that and they relay that to other people very easily if we’re out in a group of some kind. One of them will 12 �say, “oh my mom played pro”, and I say, “here we go”. My husband did a lot of that, but I didn’t do it. I’m learning how a little bit and I pick my times if it’s called for, then I might. 52:55 I don’t just advertise it and I do give a lot of talks to different groups, very different kinds of groups and they love to hear about it and that’s a whole new experience for us again. When you do that you learn the impact of what we did and the style that we did that. 53:33 Interviewer: “I want to get back to the—you’ve gone through your first season now ok? How many seasons did you actually play with that team? You were with Kenosha right? How long did you play with them?” It was two, one season with them and one season before that. Kenosha in 1951 dropped out of the league. Interviewer: “Where did you go from there?” To work. Interviewer: “You didn’t play again?” I didn’t play again. 54:02 It folded, it was terrible and I thought the whole league was folding, but we went until 1954, but it was absolutely terrible. Interviewer: “I guess and I don’t want to go somewhere that you don’t want to go, but what caught me by surprise was that for some reason I thought after Kenosha you went on to play for another baseball team. Why not?” Because the Racine Belles were already out and you had less teams and you don’t need that many ball players and I couldn’t wait, I had to go to work and send money home and stuff like that and I just—it’s over. One has to understand how the move from one thing to another because I did a lot of moving in my life and I learned how to accept something and just move on. 55:20 Interviewer: “Did you see the end coming to the league? You said that in 1951 you out.” A little bit within our own team and near the end we weren’t sure we were going to get paid and that sort of thing and then sometimes the chaperone became the manager and that sort of thing. By that time there wasn’t an over arching league ownership, by that time each team had to take care of themselves and I think that was in 1948 or something like that. Looking back on it, it was pretty much the access and it was going to end and there was some talk about it. 56:17 Interviewer: “You said that you went back to work and you said that very quickly and how difficult was it when it ended? It’s over, it’s ended and you’re going back to work now, what was your reaction?” 13 �You go kick stones, walk the beach and mull things over and cry a little, but one is quickly drawn into a different kind of life style. You can’t stay there very long—I had to go on and put bread in the mouth so to speak. We did have some contact with other ball players and we’re all commiserating about the loss, our joy, our inner joy, play and just learned how to accept it with clenched teeth. 57:36 Interviewer: “I don’t know about you, but for me it really hit me hard because in a sense when you talk about going to slow pitch, that’s a huge drop and that had to be hard to do. I never played professional baseball, but I went through a transition and from playing to doing slow pitch I just went, “huh, what is this?” What it does—that’s part of the transition and it wasn’t what it was called and what we were doing, we were playing. We had the activity, this little child here was out doing something—playing whatever she could play and the joy of the activity and the movement of the body and being able to give expression to the body and I was still able to do that and then I could coach some of that. That’s small little transitions that you don’t know are happening, but they are you could still throw the ball, you could still bat the ball and I could still throw and I’ve never had a sore arm because you take care of yourself and when I throw, I use my body along with it, I’m not just all arm and that’s a thrill. 59:09 It is a thrill to throw the ball because the whole sense of the body is active and that’s what helped me to stop kicking stones. Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you a personal question and if you don’t want to answer it, please don’t, but you mentioned earlier that you told your husband Bob about being a ball player. How did you two meet and did he know you were a ball player? Is there a connection there?” He didn’t know. A fellow came to work where I was working that had worked where he was, at a company that he worked at for thirty six years, and he played golf, they had their own golf team, and Paul and I had already made arrangements to go golfing on Thursday with his wife and they golfed on Wednesday, so he came to work the next day and said, “Do you mind of somebody else comes along to make a foursome? :12 I said, “that’s fine”, so I left work and went home and changed my clothes and met him on the golf course and went to Paul’s house afterwards and had a light lunch and then he was on vacation someplace and about two or three weeks later Paul comes to me and said, “could I give him your phone number?” I said, “is that Bob?” And he said it was and I said, “ok” because I had to know who it was and I made my own decisions around those things. 1:02 On our first date we went to a Packer game, a Packer game here in Milwaukee at the old Marquette Stadium and it was a kind of foggy, rainy night, but the Packers won, it was that Bishops game, and then we met Paul and Fran downtown and we had dinner and danced and all of that. We went together pretty well after that and that was in August and I was engaged in October and married in January. All from meeting on the golf course. 1:52 Interviewer: “When did you tell him about being a baseball player?” 14 �I don’t really remember, but not too long after that because he knew that I was interested in sports and he played softball and I think he got the idea that to get to me we had to participate in sports and I think it just kind of came out in natural conversation. Interviewer: “In the earlier conversation we were having, you said that he liked to talk about the fact that you were playing baseball.” Yes, because I wouldn’t and he was proud of that and most of the players, when they left, didn’t talk about it much. If they did any talking, they did it with each other if they were in contact with one another. 2:57 Interviewer: “I’m so pleased to hear your boys and that they seemed to like the fact that mom played baseball professionally too.” They have come a long way with that. They were very young and I taught them a lot of things. I think they gradually came to understand that I knew something because I was teaching them. They played a little ball, but they liked swimming and auto mechanics and all that sort of stuff and I learned then what was happening to me when I was little. I wanted to do what I wanted to do and each individual boy does, they’re all mechanics and machinists, but they’ve learned to be their own person and they are very different. 3:48 Interviewer: “This is going to be a tougher question digging into your memory, but when did you first start and I don’t need a date or anything, but when did you first start realizing, after the fact, what you had participated in, enjoyed so much, was very proud of, but still didn’t talk a whole lot about, other people were starting to go, “Hey, did you know about that?” When did you first realize that you guys participated in something that you didn’t think was very important at the time, but a lot of other people were?” 4:27 See I, because I had a married name, they didn’t catch up with me for a while and so when I found out that we were in the Hall of Fame. Interviewer: “You didn’t know?” I didn’t know. I was at a house with Marge Peters, who had played before me in 1944, and she didn’t know that I had played because I was in 1950 and 1951, so they were always looking for different ones and a group of us were together at her house and there was a long hallway and there was her wall of honor and my picture was up there and so she told me and she showed me the video from Cooperstown. 5:16 Well, I’ll tell you, I beat my chest. I just beat my chest because “this little one”, which I was called, did something, I said, “I wish my mother was here now” because she really didn’t approve, but she knew that I needed to do those things and we finally agreed to that. 6:06 I think that when you do what you really love to do that it is a gift and when we exercise and grow out of our gifts, that’s where we go in life and there’s a different joy in learning that than there is the playing. The joy is monumentus, it’s like “this little kid did it” you 15 �know because I had to prove myself all the time. 6:52 All the time I was proving myself to myself as well and there isn’t anything better than proving yourself to yourself. It gives momentum to what you do and there’s opportunity then to share that. We now share that with each other. We still can come to reunions and meet somebody you haven’t met before, but you know that they’ve played and we share the same thing, all the ups and downs, ins and outs, hurts and bruises and strawberries and stories. 7:39 We begin to tell our own stories within our group. Interviewer: “You said something earlier about not talking about it, the fact that your husband was very proud of you and did more talking about it than you, because you wouldn’t, your kids finally got to the point of realizing it. Why do you want to talk about it now?” 8:04 It’s valuable. It’s history. If we don’t tell our stories there’s no history to anything if the stories aren’t told and when I give talks, I say that to the mothers, I tell the mothers that they have to support their child in what the child likes to do—they may change their mind in two weeks and they need to tall their story and the grand parents need to love them to pieces because those are the important things for a child when they’re growing up. 8:55 As I said before, it was very difficult growing up, but all of that is who I am and when I began to recognize that playing baseball was a very important part of my living and growing up and who I am and we need to share that with everybody and anybody who wants to know or will listen and that’s important for the other person also. 9:27 Interviewer: “I have two last questions for you. One you answered in part throughout, so I’m just going to ask you this: How did the experience of baseball, pro baseball affect you as a person and how you became the person you are today?” Learning how to get along really. In college I’m a broad field social science major educated in secondary education and I was broad field because of all the things that I was learning, because when you meet at a very young age somebody from New Jersey and somebody from the south, Atlanta or whatever, Cuba, Canada, each one of us teach each other who they are and we begin to look at that and recognize that broadens our horizons of how we view our world. 10:37 The capability then of interacting with people in a situation no matter where we are. I often say in my talks that we were taught how to be professional people on the field and off the field very much so. Interviewer: “You talked earlier also using the word history and as you know, we have Dr. Smither here in the history department at Grand Valley State University and I’m a documentary film maker, so I’m going to ask you this very specific question. Where do you think the All American Girls Professional Baseball League fits in the whole scheme of history?” 11:24 The development of women, to be given the opportunities to do who they are. Every person who is alive has desires and things that they like and dislike and if one only does as one is told or put in a niche or to be seen and not heard we have lost something. That person has lost something, the world has lost something, not just the United States, but 16 �the whole world has lost something because we’re still part of the human race, we’re not just what someone else thinks we are. We have to learn to live out from within instead of having to fulfill somebody else’s ideas of what we are. I’m very strong on that because I had the privilege of living that out. I always say, “I had a health dose of stubbornness”, but that’s what it takes. There are so many facets to the development of the human being that intellectually, physically, emotionally, all of that and the more we do that the more we are who we are and we can interact with other people of the world. I can reach out and I can say, “hi, thank you, good to meet you”, and I do that with the kids and if we don’t do that, what are we? 13:53 It just so happens that through sports, it could have been any sport because most of us played all sports and in that is the interaction between us and if I throw the ball to you and you throw the ball back to me, we have a relationship and if we don’t know how to have relationships with people, oh man, we’re in trouble, we’re in deep trouble if we don’t, that’s what we’re here for. 14:36 Interviewer: “I still didn’t get a complete answer to the history question. Where do you think the, and I love what you just said, don’t get me wrong, but I want to focus on—from your perspective where does the team fit in terms of history? Were do you just a baseball team? Where do you think it fits into all of this?” You know, we grew up in a time when we were at WWII and my husband was in WWII, I had two of my brothers in WWII and we took care of the homefront in the sense of— when we played we made a V from home plate past the pitchers mound, one team here and one team there and that V was for victory, that’s what that was for. We played at Fort Sheridan for the soldiers there and for the navy people at Great Lakes and that was usually in the springtime for exhibitions and things like that. 15:43 We helped to sell war bonds in the sense of our appearances. We didn’t physically handle that, but it was because of whom we were and what we were doing that the war bonds were sold and we saved Aluminum foil and made it into baseballs and threw them around. We were a part of the homefront; I think a very large part of the homefront. To give entertainment where there wasn’t much. You didn’t have much money, there was gas rationing and we took care of the people in that sense that were in a geographical area. Interviewer: “Now that part you did feel at the time, right? You did feel that part?” Sure right. Interviewer: “You may not have understood the significance of the baseball and what it was going to do for future generations, but you did feel that it was part of the war effort like “Rosie the Riveter”, the WACS or the WAVES or anybody?” 17:08 Absolutely, we were very much aware of sort of a role, I would call it a role, that a—that actually helped to keep people who worked very hard and long hours, they had a chance to relax and had a chance to interact with us, and we with them, in a very positive way. We were always in tune with what was going on, always. 17:49 We began every game with the “Star Spangled Banner” and we were very in tune to “God Bless America” with 17 �the fat lady singing. Had to hear the fat lady sing and you know what we did when we traveled? We sang all the time and it was the singing that helped us in the sense of fulfilling what it is that the people at home had to go through and keep the moral—we were moral boosters, I would say for whomever came in contact with us. 18:39 Interviewer: “A couple random questions, any particular incidents, events highlights anywhere in that period of time you were playing that you, for whatever reason, would like to have on the record? Maybe the kids want to hear about or grandchildren would finally hear about. Just something, it doesn’t even have to be baseball related per say, but what in that period of time when you were playing pro ball, any particular things that may have happened that come to your head?” 19:10 Well, there are two things. One thing is the travel and realizing that we are part of a larger thing and the other one is baseball and it has to do with playing in Yankee Stadium. As we were traveling through and came to Newark, New Jersey again and we played in the old Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C. and that was our first time to play within a major league ballpark, “marvelous”. 19:57 Of course you’re in Newark when you go across the water there and go to Yankee Stadium and that’s where I met Yogi Berra because I was on that side and when he was starting out and I was so excited because I think we parked like two miles away, I left my shoes on the bus and that’s how excited we were to be in Yankee Stadium. To walk inside for the first time as a very young person to see Yankee Stadium, you’re looking around and “oh my goodness”. At that time it was pretty much “the stadium” and to meet the players that we met was a— Yogi asked me if I wanted to use his bat—well, first of all Yogi liked a thick handle and a heavy thing out here, it was a club, and if I had picked it up and swung it, I would still be going around in circles. I saw his wrists and his wrists were really big and you had to have those kinds of wrists to use a bat like that. The whole experience at Yankee Stadium was memorable in terms of baseball. 21:21 Interviewer: “Was part of it because you were professional? You’re not just a fan walking into Yankee Stadium; you’re walking in as a professional into Yankee Stadium.” Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Like I say, we went to Griffith Stadium first on the way up from town and the difference between a AAA league diamond and major league, there’s no comparison, it’s just awesome and I use that word not casually, it’s awesome. I realized why the Yankees had great catchers—because the distance between home plate and the backstop, you could put a softball diamond in, I mean it was very far. 22:19 You knew you couldn’t have a fat ball, no fat balls in Yankee Stadium because they could take two bases instead of one and I think that’s why they had such good catchers and good hitters. They had catchers that were very good hitters. It was a professional meeting, absolutely, and a lot of the kids that were there still talk about it. We’re proud to have been there and rubbed elbows with the “biggies” and just like young kids now are proud to meet us in that vein. 23:18 When you tell the story, you relive the emotions. 18 �Interviewer: “Well, there are a few of us older “fogies” here that kind of special being here with you too. I’m not quite the older “fogie” yet, I’m not going to admit to it though although—I have a question and I’m sure you’ve been asked it a hundred times, but what did you think of the movie?” 23:48 The movie was good because it was based on fact even though it was a fictional story and that’s Hollywood and Hollywood eyes. A lot of embellishments that we sit and laugh at and I think the only thing we were concerned with was in the beginning, when we saw the move, was a little bit of the language. There wasn’t a lot of that, but we’re thinking of it in terms of showing young people and I think there’s a version out that doesn’t have that in and I’m happy about that because it needs to be in the schools and whether it’s elementary, high school, college or whatever. 24:33 Interviewer: “You will be happy to know that when we first started about doing this project, the Library of Congress project with women’s baseball, when I talked to my students and there was not a lot of knowledge about it, but when you said, League of Their Own, they knew and said, “oh, I loved that movie”, and then I said, “I’m going to meet the real women” and they went “wow”. I look at it from a different perspective, I watched the movie and I love tom Hanks and I love Geena Davis and for me it was more of a Hollywood version, but it did give you the overview of the experience of walking into that ballpark. eeina Davis walks in and there’s all those players playing, it had to be close to being real, oh yeah. 25:32 I thought that Penny Marshall was very astute in how it was put together because when I was in Chicago when we were first asked to come and tryout for six speaking parts and then we went to Cooperstown and I wondered, “how are they going to do this without being trite about things and just throw an idiom in there somehow or another and have it make sense”, but she made sense all the way through, all the way through. There were integral parts of the story that said what it is and what won support for a lot of us was when Tom Hanks is talking to Geena Davis when she’s leaving to go to Oregon. Well, I saw the premieer in Fort Wayne, we had a premiere there and when he said, “of course it’s hard, if it wasn’t hard, anybody could do it”, well there’s another chest going thing, but we were quiet, it was so quiet that you could hear all the motors and stuff underneath that handle everything in that theater. That’s how quiet it was because we were crying. What I said about having to learn to survive and go through a lot of stuff, that was another way of saying that, but a way that was acceptable to other people. It helped us to be acceptable because we went through a lot of unacceptability, but we didn’t let it change us, it helped us to grow. 27:30 Interviewer: I was moved by that too, in fact I teach writing at Grand Valley and I say that about writers, the same thing. “It’s hard work and if it was easy, everybody could do it”. I really felt that too.” If you are doing what you really love to do, you will do it, no matter how hard it is, but that makes it what it is or anybody could do it. 28:05 Interviewer: “That was wonderful, that was wonderful.” 19 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_JBaumgart Title A name given to the resource Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson Description An account of the resource Jacqueline Baumgart (née Mattson) was born in Waukegan, Illinois. She grew up in Waukegan area and played with the neighborhood boys. She played outfield positions as a kid. In 1942, her family moved to Milwaukee, WI where she played with as a catcher for a few local softball teams. Eventually, she was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. At the start of her first spring training she had not been assigned to a team yet. She was eventually assigned to the Springfield Sallies in 1950. She played the 1950 season with them and was then traded to the Kenosha Comets and played the 1951 season with them. One of her main career highlights was having the opportunity to play as a professional in Yankee Stadium. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/53d6e32a248b7e8a9884fc4f1e9440b7.m4v 710fe2fb8c2154f3c611673a90bb5058 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dff524aad3ae2e0954db52e451b3ec72.pdf 9c9a51bef94866f5aa8b9501dfbaad90 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Helen “Gig” Smith Length of Interview: (01:02:00) Transcribed by: Sean Duffie, March 1, 2010 Interviewer: We’re talking today with Helen Smith of Richmond, Virginia Gig Smith: Gig Interviewer: Everyone called you Gig, so, okay. She’s a veteran of the Women’s Army Corps from the Second World War, as well as a player for the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and this interview is going to cover both of these, because both fall under the privy of the Library of Congress Veterens history project. The Interviewer is James Smither, of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now, Gig, can you start by telling us a little bit about your own background, to begin with: where and when were you born? Gig Smith: I was born January the 5th, 1922, and I lived in Virginia, Richmond. I think I was interest in sports since the day I was born. Interviewer: Do you remember how early you started playing baseball, or softball? Gig Smith: Yes, when I was thirteen. And I played for Lucky Strike. (1:00) They didn’t know when I was playing, they didn’t know how old I was, and when they found out how old I was, they let me go. Then I went joined another team. Interviewer: You said you were playing for Lucky Strike, the cigarette brand. Now, did the tobacco companies sponsor teams? Gig Smith: Well, they sponsored their own players, not outsiders Interviewer: Now how did you get to be on one of those teams? Gig Smith: Well, everybody went to the playground in those days, and that’s where it really started. Interviewer: Were you playing baseball or were you playing softball? Gig Smith: Softball, fast pitch. �Interviewer: Okay, and fast pitch softball, was that overhand or underhand? Gig Smith: Under. A little bit of side arm. Interviewer: Now, what position did you normally play? Gig Smith: 3rd base Interviewer: How good was your throwing arm? Gig Smith: Pretty good. Interviewer: Now, could you hit well? (2:00) Gig Smith: Yes, I was fourth, always fourth hitter. Interviewer: Let’s back up a little bit here. Tell me, what did your family do for a living in those days? Gig Smith: My mother was a nurse before she became married, and my father worked for the city, and he was a CPA. He worked at city hall. Interviewer: That sounds like a fairly secure job, so he could keep that during that depression? Gig Smith: Mmhmm. He helped to support other people in the family, when they lost their jobs. We doubled up., which everybody did in those days. Interviewer: Did you finish high school? Gig Smith: Yes, and I received the athletic trophy, Most Athletic, when I graduated. That was a graduating class of over 500, so that was guess that was pretty good. (3:00) Interviewer: So what other sports did you play besides softball? Gig Smith: Everything that they let me get into. I majored in four sports in high school Interviewer: And what were the other sports? Gig Smith: Track, tennis, field hockey and basketball Interviewer: These days, girls have a lot of opportunities for sports, but you were doing pretty much what was available to you at the time. �Gig Smith: That was everything that was there. Nowadays they concentrate on one sport. I did them all. Interviewer: Well, how were you able to fit all of them in? Gig Smith: Well, they were after school. Interviewer: They had them on different days? Gig Smith: And different seasons Interviewer: In what year did you graduate from high school? Gig Smith: 1940. (4:00) Interviewer: Then what did you do once you finished school? Gig Smith: I worked for a photo finishing place until I heard that Pearl Harbor announced on the radio. Then I went back to the kitchen where my mother was, and I said, they bombed Pearl Harbor. And my brother was already in the navy. And I said I wished that they had something for women to do. I’d love to go in. And two months after that, they started the auxiliary corps, and two months after that, it became the army. Interviewer: Did you remember when you first heard about the auxiliary corps? Gig Smith: Well, that was army; all I knew was the branches of service… Interviewer: Was it advertised or announced in the news that they were recruiting women? Gig Smith: Oh, yeah. Interviewer: How did the recruiting process work? Where did you go to sign up? Gig Smith: I went to the Marines first, and they didn’t want any women in the marines, but they had to take them. (5:00) The fellow at the recruiting station was very rude-- he kept his head down and wrote-- and I stood there waiting. It seems like a half hour but it couldn’t have been more than a few minutes. Then he said, what do you want? And that threw me back. And I said, what do you mean what do I want? I’d like to know a little bit about the Marines. He said-- still writing and still not looking up-- what do you want to know about the Marines? And all I know is I wanted to get out of there. I don’t remember what was said after that, and I could hardly wait to get out of there, and I walked down those steps and down about 8 blocks to the Army recruiting station. The fellow was totally different. He �was opposite of the rough old marine that didn’t look immaculate in his dress, (6:00) and this was a young black fellow that stood up and introduced himself and put his hand out when he introduced himself, and he said, “What can I help you with?” And I said, “I’d like to know a little bit about the Army.” And he said, “Have a seat and we’ll see what we can do.” And I asked… I wanted to know if there’s any way of getting any type of art work in the service. And he said, well, I’d say you’d have about 98 chances out of 100 you won’t get it because there’s very little being done, and I thought, he’s very polite and he’s honest, and if this is the way they ought to treat me, I’ll join. So I went home that night, and my brother was already in the navy and my sister was with her husband—he was stationed in New York. (7:00) I told my family, my mother wasn’t very well at that time, but I took a chance and I said I joined the army today— not having joined it—just to see what their reaction was going to be. And there was dead silence and I said uh-oh, I sunk. Finally my father said, well how do you know you’re going to like it? I said, I don’t know, but that’s the chance I’ll have to take. And that’s all that was said, so the next day I went back and signed up Interviewer: When you walked into that army recruiting office, and there was a black soldier there, were you surprised to see him there? Gig Smith: No. Interviewer: Because this is still the era of segregation, and the army was segregated. Gig Smith: Well, I’ve always been different in my ideas, and I was taught to handle things like that differently by my family, thank goodness. (8:00) Interviewer: At this point, the army itself was still segregated so they don’t desegregate… Gig Smith: Well, I didn’t know. Interviewer: And it was perfectly normal to you when you walked in and he behaved like a good person? Gig Smith: Extremely polite and very immaculate in his dress, totally different from the marine. Interviewer: The Marine quite likely was somebody they pulled off from some other duty some place and just stuck him there. So when you go back to sign up then, what’s the process? �Gig Smith: I don’t know; that’s a little blurry. I just signed up and they told me when I’d be leaving. There were street cars in those days, and I remember driving to the railroad station. (9:00) Interviewer: Where did they send you for training? Gig Smith: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia Interviewer: And where in Georgia was Fort Oglethorpe? Gig Smith: It’s in the northern part. Interviewer: And what kind of facility was it? What did it look like? Gig Smith: Normal army barracks, wooden, nothing to brag about. We had stoves that you had to stoke with the coal. It was rough, but I liked it. Interviewer: About how many women were in the group you were training with? Gig Smith: I would say probably fifty to one hundred. I don’t remember. Interviewer: What sort of people did they have training you or supervising you? Gig Smith: We had officers and then we had noncommissioned officers that handled us. Interviewer: Were these women or men? (10:00) Gig Smith: Women Interviewer: Did you have the impression that some of these women had been in the army a while, or were they all pretty new? Gig Smith: Well, we were all pretty new in those days. Interviewer: What kind of training did they actually give you? Did they have you marching around? Gig Smith: Absolutely. PT every morning. Physical training. And when we got to hours after my basic training, I was sent to Headquarters Company on the fort. I was part of the headquarters company, and they had various places where we went out to do our jobs. I was assigned to publications, and I got art work. So, that was very unusual, because he told me I probably wouldn’t. (11:00) We made all the training aids, and we illustrated the post newspaper, made illustrations. Publications was just one of the services the Headquarters Company serviced. �Interviewer: You had mentioned this before, where did your interest in art come from? Gig Smith: I just always drew. I don’t know. Just like the sports. Interviewer: So you‘d always done that. Had you taken art classes in high school? Gig Smith: (12:00) And after school. I didn’t think there was a chance for me to go to college, because in those days, the boys always got the first chance to go, and I knew I wouldn’t go. So I played in school, I really did, I played everything. Art was everything to me, but once I got out of army, and had a chance to go, then my grades were totally different, and I had excellent grades then. Interviewer: Did you just do drawing or did you do painting? Gig Smith: Everything. Ceramics. Everything. Anything I could get my hands on. Interviewer: Tell me a little bit more about the training part and life on the base here. You mentioned you did physical training. Did you have to learn army discipline and following the rules? Gig Smith: Oh yeah. When I was finally settled in the Headquarters Company, every six weeks had physical training that they tested you on, and if you got over a certain score, you were exempt for the next six weeks. I got the high score. (13:00) So they put me in charge of getting up in the morning to train those ones that couldn’t even do a situp. So the next six week, I didn’t get the high score, and I was out of there. Interviewer: Was that by design? Gig Smith: Yes! Who wants to get up in the morning to train people who couldn’t do anything? Interviewer: At this base where you were, were there a lot of male soldiers training too? Gig Smith: We had a company of male soldiers there, but these were for various jobs on the post, and we worked with some of them, but mostly we had women. Interviewer: (14:00) What kind of rules did they have governing contact with male soldiers, or anything else like that? To what extent did they keep you separate? �Gig Smith: Well, they were stationed in a different part of the fort, and I really don’t know where they were, but they came to work. They worked in Publications, a couple of them, various jobs. Interviewer: And did you have any supervisory responsibilities? Did you tell anyone else what to do? Gig Smith: No, not at that time. Interviewer: How long did you stay at that? Gig Smith: Only for the duration of the war. All the transfers were frozen. Everyone wanted to out of Fort Oglethorpe. (15:00) And the only people who could get you out of there was the Pentagon, which was the headquarters company for the war. And I don’t know how I was chosen, but I was requisitioned to go to the Pentagon. I was with all nice people, with cooks and bakers, they’d have had me washing pots and pans the rest of my life. Interviewer: When did they send you up to the Pentagon? Gig Smith: About half way through. Before I left, I went from Publications, over to cadre. Cadre runs the headquarters company. I was in cadre for a little while, that was when they called me to the Pentagon. I had to sit outside for a week while they did a three-way clearance. (16:00) I don’t have past that – because I’m joking – but they had to come to Richmond and interview a lot of people before they let you into the office. But that was wonderful, I was with a great great bunch of people there. We had about 200 people in that office, that were specialists in everything Japanese. They were specialists. I don’t’ know how I got there. Interviewer: What duties did you have there? Gig Smith: We had people on islands that the Japanese didn’t know about, and if the Japanese had known about them, they would have of course beheaded them. (17:00) But they intercepted their codes, Jap codes, as the ships went by. They sent them to our department. Now, I did not do the decoding, but it was within our department. It was all secret. Everything that they sent us – little pieces of paper with information on it, where the ships were, what they were carrying, what the weight of the ship was – they sent to us to plot on these maps, and we determined which ones would be bombed, which would help to shorten the war. Actually, we were as close to the war as you could get for not being there.(18:00) It was fascinating. Interviewer: What kind of work did you do for them in that, if you’re not doing the decrypting? �Gig Smith: We were taking the ones that they had decoded, and we plotted them out on the maps. We had special cards – everything’s different today, such an advancement in technology – and we took what was on those cards, and we plotted them on the maps and we had special couriers to fly it over. And it had to be done as it came in, it was very fast, because these ships were moving. Sometimes we’d have to work all night to get them out. Interviewer: Where were you living while you were working at the Pentagon? Gig Smith: We lived at Fort Myer. (19:00) We walked every day in a tunnel under the highway to the Pentagon. We were not very well liked, because they made special barracks for us. They were cinder block, and we had these dryers that you’d pull out. We had everything. We lived 4 to a cubicle and not in the barracks like the other girls did. Everybody in the barracks that we lived in knew that you had to be quiet because there were people there, you know when you worked all night you had to sleep all day or part of it, so they did not like us. Also, we were exempt from doing KP duty, and they did not like us at all. Interviewer: When you say they, who are you referring to? Gig Smith: The other soldiers. Interviewer: Were they male soldiers or were they women? Gig Smith: (20:00) Women, strictly women. Interviewer: So there were a lot of other WACs basically on the base, but only certain of you had the special assignment over at the Pentagon. Gig Smith: Yes. Interviewer: The women you were working with, what kind of backgrounds did they have? Gig Smith: Practically all of them had college educations but me. And that’s why I don’t know how I got there. Interviewer: When you were working with the maps, were there situations where your abilities as an artist were helpful to you somehow? Gig Smith: Yes, in plotting them, and things like that. Interviewer: That may well have a lot to do with it. They look for specialized skills and you had some. While you were working there, did you meet any �high-ranking people or any important ones? Did they come through and check up on you? Gig Smith: (21:00) At the Pentagon? I’ll tell you a funny story. I’ve told it so many times, you’ll probably see it in other places. I had a friend that worked in General Marshall’s office. And she said – everything was military and sort of sterile – in her office, she had a cute little waiting room there with a sofa and a lamp and a chair and all kinds of little feminine touches. She said, why don’t you come to see my office some time, if you want to see something that’s not military? And I said, okay, when I have the chance I’ll go. So one day I went around there and all of a sudden – well, she was leaning up against a… I don’t know… I was sitting on the sofa facing a door – this loud buzzer went off and she jumped to attention at that door and I didn’t know what was going on. (22:00) All of a sudden, I knew that was the secretary of war, Henry Stimson, and I could not move, because you’re supposed to stand at attention when any officer comes into the room. I could not move, so Stimson was a very small man, and he had a colonel that looked like he would hit the ceiling… and I still couldn’t move. So, Mr. Stimson said How do you do? as he passed. I know I said how do you do. But as they went around the door, the big tall colonel came back in, and I knew he was after me. I jumped to attention. (23:00) He said, “Sergeant, don’t you know that when the Secretary of War is in the room, you’re supposed to stand at attention?” “Yes sir, but I didn’t know he was behind that door.” She should have told me, she was very embarrassed about it because she could have warned me. But that was an experience I’ll never get over. It’s funny now, but it wasn’t funny then. He said just see that it doesn’t happen again. And I thought to myself, man, you’re not ever going to get into this office ever again. He had gone in to see General Marshall and I didn't know anybody was in there, she didn't warn me. Interviewer: While you were living at Fort Myer and were working at the Pentagon, did you get a chance to go into Washington itself? (24:00) Gig Smith: We went in every once in a while, but we didn’t go regularly. Interviewer: Did you have any spare time, and if you did, how did you spend it? Gig Smith: Sports: basketball, softball. I played on a team down in Oglethorpe that went to a state tournament. I had two bases loaded and a home run. Interviewer: Two grand slams Gig Smith: Yeah, grand slam, I tried to think of it. �Interviewer: I guess, when we look ahead to the Women’s baseball league, they didn’t hit necessarily a lot of home runs. Gig Smith: Well, the last three years of my playing Richmond, I had an average of hitting a home run a game. Interviewer: Was it easier to hit home runs in softball than it was going to be in baseball? (25:00) Gig Smith: Well, I didn’t get far enough into baseball to know the difference. Interviewer: Let’s go back to Washington. Did the Pentagon have women’s teams that you could play on? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: And who would they play against? Gig Smith: The other forts, or… I’m not thinking. Interviewer: The other bases and other units? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: Did you travel around to play those games? Gig Smith: Occasionally but it was all in the Washington area Interviewer: When working at the pentagon, there’s going to be men working along with women. (26:00) Gig Smith: Right Interviewer: What kind of relationship was there in the offices? How did the men treat the women? Gig Smith: I was with officers and people that were skilled, so they were a little bit different. We were treated with respect. Interviewer: Were there situations outside of the office or off of the base where people treated women in the army with a little less respect? Gig Smith: I think so. I have no idea what it’s like today… I don’t know, I can’t compare the two. �Interviewer: Were there ways that you could recognize that people were a little uncomfortable with you? Gig Smith: Yes, well, that’s human nature. (27:00) Interviewer: Now when you went off the base, would you stay in uniform? Gig Smith: Yes, always. Interviewer: I guess in Washington there’d be a lot of women in uniform. Gig Smith: Oh yeah. It would be so overcrowded. Where the mall is now, they had barracks. It was a real busy place in those days. Interviewer: Now, are there particular events or things that happened while you were working in Washington that stand out in your memory? Gig Smith: Well, I remember when Roosevelt died. We were shocked, I was getting to go home for the weekend – because Richmond was so close – and then I remember when Drew Pearson of the Washington Post broke it, that we had broken the Jap code, the office went berserk. (28:00) Because he should have been hung. He should have really been… but they never did any thing to him. Interviewer: When did that happen? Was that late in the war? Gig Smith: It was towards the end of the war, but you could have still used the Japanese code today if he had not put it in the post. He must have paid someone a pretty penny to get hat information, or somebody must have been drunk. Interviewer: Then, do you remember when the atomic bomb got announced? Gig Smith: I don’t remember the particulars. Interviewer: Of course, then there’s the announcement that the war itself is over and the Japanese surrender. Gig Smith: (29:00) I never had headaches, but they wanted some of us to go to Japan with the occupational forces. And I wanted to go very much, but I also wanted to go to college. So I kept the headache for a week trying to decide which I wanted to do most. And as soon as I decided that maybe I would feel too old when I got back, the headache went away. Interviewer: So you decided that you were not going to go then �Gig Smith: No, I decided to go to college, going to art school Interviewer: Is that the first thing you did after you left the army? Gig Smith: I went straight to New York. Interviewer: What school did you attend there? Gig Smith: I went to Pratt until… I was trying to live on 79 dollars a month, and it was pretty rough, so I called the scout that had offered me the contract that I had turned down to go into the service, to see if I could still get that contract. (30:00) And that weekend, they had me flying from New York to Chicago to meet the president of the company of the association. Interviewer: The president of the association, Mr. Wrigley himself? Gig Smith: No, it was… oh dear, I know it as well as I do my name. I don’t remember. Interviewer: He was the president of the league? Gig Smith: No, I didn’t meet Mr. Wrigley, he was president of the league. Interviewer: When did you first get approached about playing professional baseball? Gig Smith: Before I went into the army, and I said no, I’m going into the service. (31:00) Because everybody was doing something – it was a different war – everybody was collecting things, scrap metal, everybody was doing something, and I wanted to go in too. Interviewer: Now, the league itself doesn’t get started until the war is going along-Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: --pretty well. If you’re joining the army in 1942, did maybe did the league contact you not long after you joined? Gig Smith: No, they contacted me before I went in, and I turned that down. Then, after I got out and needed the money – at least in the summertime -- that’s when I joined. But then my mother became ill and my father wrote me a very sweet letter, asking me to consider if I would come home to help him. (32:00) So I had to transfer from Pratt to what’s now DCU, And I had to stop playing softball, too, and baseball. �Interviewer: Let’s see, go back then to your baseball story. You go out to Chicago, did they try you out? What happened when you got to Chicago? Gig Smith: No, the scouts that they sent around, they knew what you were capable of and those things, and I was later, in the Fast Pitch Softball Hall of Fame in Virginia. I was one of the first people to go in. And we had a team from Virginia that went to the first national softball tournament. Interviewer: When was that? (33:00) Gig Smith: That was in Detroit, don’t ask me dates. I’m 87, please! (Laughter) Interviewer: Was that back when you were a high school player? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: So you were pretty well known then. Gig Smith: Yeah. Interviewer: So they thought, okay, we’re going to go get her. So what team then did they assign you to? Gig Smith: Kenosha. The bus was waiting for me, because I had been in school, and the bus was sitting on the side of the road waiting for me. They were going to one of the teams they were going to play. Interviewer: Do you remember what it was like to first meet the people on the team and join the team? Gig Smith: I don’t know, I was just happy to be there. I don’t know, I don’t remember. I met people easily. Interviewer: (34:00) So you made friends quickly then? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: Describe a little bit of what life was like in that first season. Gig Smith: Well, I was a rookie, so I was lucky to get in a game, but I got in a few. It was great, I thought it was great. Interviewer: Now, at the point when you joined, how much were they doing in terms of enforcing the rules for dress and conduct and all of those things? �Gig Smith: We had chaperones. We were supposed to look and act and conduct ourselves like ladies at all time, but play like men. So it was a pretty big chore for some of us. We could not drink, smoke in public. (35:00) We had to wear a dress or skirt at all times. And in those days, there were no nylon hose because everything was going to war, so it was pretty funny to look at those pictures now and see bobby socks in your shoes when you were in a dress. Interviewer: Do you remember any of the chaperones that you had? Gig Smith: They were wonderful; they were really great to us. But we played a lot of pranks. The movie was correct in some of the things that they said, like putting limburger cheese on the light, and when she came in – as the light got hot – when she came in the night, she went all over the place hunting for the smell. (36:00) Then we were passing around chocolates, and we gave an exlax to one of the chaperones Interviewer: Now none of this was your ideas was it? Gig Smith: Oh, no, you don’t think? I was so innocent. Interviewer: Were you older than a lot of the players on the team? Gig Smith: Oh yes, I was. Interviewer: But were they teaching things about how to play at their level? Gig Smith: Well, I was good enough to play at heir level, but the rules were different. You played off the base. They started us off with a smaller ball and to push the bases back a little bit, you know, until we could become accustomed to the length and the size of the ball (37:00) But I had a strange thing happen to me. There was a girl there the year before I got there that had the same name as I, and she played center field. I was always the third baseman. And when I went to spring training -- evidently Grand Rapids wanted a center fielder – they must have thought that I was that Helen Smith. I thought you were supposed to play where they asked you or wanted you play. So I played center field. Interviewer: That was your second season? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: So, you played in Kenosha for one year, then you played with Grand Rapids for one year. Gig Smith: No… yeah, yeah. �Interviewer: What years were those? 47-48? Gig Smith: 46-47, I think. Interviewer: So right after the war, essentially. (38:00) The war ends in late enough in 1945, the baseball season is pretty well done, so the next year you come to play Gig Smith: Yeah, because I was in New York going to art school. Interviewer: And then, between the baseball seasons, then, you went back home to Virginia and you went back to art school. Gig Smith: Yes, I transferred Interviewer: Did the team accommodate your school schedule, or did the season start late enough that you didn’t have to miss school or miss games. Gig Smith: No, I had to stop doing both, stop playing ball. Interviewer: In the year that you first joined the league, you would have missed the spring training that year, right? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: You were coming in after that. Now the next year, the year that you joined Grand Rapids, did you go to spring training that year? Gig Smith: Yeah, we were in Florida, and then they flew us to Cuba to put on exhibition games. Interviewer: What was that like? (39:00) Gig Smith: Cuba. I was happy to be home. Just leave it as that. It was rough down there. Interviewer: People didn’t follow quite the same rules as they did where you came from? Gig Smith: Well, we were only there to put on an exhibition game. I got awfully tired of the Cubans following us around, singing. I was hungry for American music. Interviewer: Did you play against Cuban teams while you were down there? Or did you play American teams? �Gig Smith: I’ve forgotten, I don’t remember. We probably played our own girls, I'd imagine. Interviewer: Now the league did recruit some Cuban players. Did you have any Cubans on the teams that you played for? Gig Smith: No Interviewer: (40:00) Do you remember how long they had you in Cuba? Was it like a week or a couple weeks? Gig Smith: In Cuba? Just a week, couple of days, a week. Bacardi opened up their bar. That was the longest bar I’d ever seen in my life. We had one of our leading pitchers was not a drinker, and I wanted to go to Sloppy Joe’s – I’d always heard about Sloppy Joe’s and I really wanted to go – and we were going there after we ate. They took us by Bacardi’s. And this leading pitcher, who was not a drinker, and she was so out of it, that somebody had to take her back, and I volunteered. (41:00) And I never saw Sloppy Joe’s. Interviewer: So what was Sloppy Joe’s Gig Smith: That was where Ernest Hemingway used to hang out. Interviewer: You said this woman was drinking, where were the Chaperones while that was all happening? Gig Smith: Well, you can sneak something in a Coke, and not know it, You know? In fact, I had my first drink when I was in basic training down at Oglethorpe. And they knew I did not drink, and that was a funny situation. Where we left the Non-com club, there was a long row of steps, and I was just as happy as a lark, not knowing that I was tight. I went to go down the steps, and my arm got caught on the rail and I slid all the way down. I went into the barracks, and everybody was asleep, and I would go through knocking on the double bunks and I would say “I’m drunk, I’m drunk.” (42:00) And the next day, they caught me good, because they came through banging on pans. But that was kind of a mean trick to play; you don't know how people are going to react. That was my first drink. Probably my last one in the army, too. Interviewer: So in the time you were living in Washington, you kind of resisted whatever offers there were to go have a drink or do this or do that. �Gig Smith: Yeah, well, we were a specialist field, and we did not do much going out, Because the work that we did was so directly associated with the war, that we didn’t do a lot of that. Interviewer: And you had to be on call and all of that? (43:00) Gig Smith: Yeah. Interviewer: Let’s go back to the spring training thing. What was the spring training in Florida like? Was training in Florida different from Cuba? Gig Smith: Well, we put on exhibition games in Cuba. In spring training in Florida, we had a lot of drills and things like that, and played different teams. Interviewer: One of the hallmarks of the league was that you played in skirts – and relatively short skirts at that. Did you have problems with the base running and fielding and things? Gig Smith: People that slid, they had horrible strawberries. It was ridiculous. But he wanted us to look like women. Interviewer: Did you do a lot of sliding, or did you just hit home runs? (44:00) Gig Smith: No, well, I didn’t hit any home runs there. If I was lucky to get in. Interviewer: So you didn’t play a lot in that first season? Gig Smith: No, not a lot. We had a girl – we were playing in Chicago – we had one of the leading center fielders, Pat [Kagel], and she slid into second base, and came up screaming. Her bone was sticking through the sock. I got more of a chance to play then. Interviewer: Was that when you were with Grand Rapids? Gig Smith: Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Did you get to play any third base with either team? Gig Smith: No, they didn’t know I was a third baseman. I thought you played where they wanted you to play. I caught in the army, because nobody was stupid enough to get back there (45:00) Interviewer: Which position did you prefer to play? Gig Smith: Third base, definitely. �Interviewer: Do you remember much about Kenosha or about Grand Rapids, the communities you were playing in? What were the fans like in those places? Gig Smith: The fans were great by the time I got there. I think the people that preceded me had a rough time in the beginning. But when they found out the caliber of ball that was being played… and I was amazed, because we had some fantastic players. Interviewer: Who were some of the best players that you played alongside? Gig Smith: I think Kamencheck was probably the best one. She was a first baseman and left-hander. She could do anything. (46:00) Dottie Schroeder played longer than anybody, but she was not the best hitter. She caught an unbelievable ball that was hit a line drive over second base, and I don’t know how she got to it, but she was fantastic. But Kamencheck was a fantastic first baseman. She caught a ball that was hit so hard, she just whirled around, and she ended up backwards when she caught that ball. I don’t' know how she caught it either. Those were the two things that I recall. Interviewer: Now when you were playing, are there particular either plays that you made or hits that you got? Gig Smith: No, I remember I hit a ground ball to Sophie Kurys. I was running to first base, and the hat slid down over my eyes. I had a time with that. Interviewer: (47:00) Did you hit the base? Gig Smith: I don’t know. All I remember is the hat sliding down and I couldn’t see a thing. I was trying to push it up and run faster. Interviewer: If it hadn’t been for your family situation back at home, would you have stayed in the league a little bit longer? Gig Smith: Yes, definitely. I would have stayed in art school, too. I mean, I would have finished at Pratt. Interviewer: Then, after your second season playing ball, you come back home to Virginia. Did you complete your degree down there? Gig Smith: Yes, at VCU. Then I taught for 31 years. Interviewer: Where were you teaching? (48:00) �Gig Smith: I was teaching at Richmond Public Schools. I taught all grades, the last eight years, I taught emotionally disturbed – not retarded – emotional cases. I had some funny experiences there. Interviewer: Could you tell us one of those? Gig Smith: Yes, I can tell you one of them I can tell you a couple of them. We had one fella that did not like to – this was in the shop class, because I taught art in shop – and he was working on a wooden project. He just did not want to sand it properly, and he wanted to stain it or put some shellac to finish it. He came to me – they had to come to be before they could the next step – and I kept saying, because he was lazy and didn’t want to do it, and he came back to me and he said, and this as after the third or fourth time, he said “Mrs. Smith, I don’t care, I’m going to pay for it.” (49:00) And I said, “Let me tell you something, Jesse. I’m a teacher that takes pride in my teaching. If you walk out that door with a project, it’s going to be done right." About three weeks later, or maybe a month later, a new student came into that class. He was trying to pull the same trick that Jesse pulled. I didn't know Jesse was behind me, and I said, “nope, it's not right." I could hear his voice pop in, and he said, "Man, let me tell you something, Ms. Smith takes pride in her teaching, and you’re not going to go walking through that door with a project unless it’s done right.” I had to cover my nose, I was laughing. I didn’t know if I’d have gotten through to him at all. I liked those emotionally disturbed, maybe it was because I was. (50:00) Interviewer: I think that, even today, we still often find that classes like that, where they can get hands on and do their own things, often students can learn that way, if they’re not doing the conventional way. But you must have been a pretty good teacher to get that kind of response. Gig Smith: I think I had more empathy for what they were going through. I had one little girl that came in – I taught shop and art both – one little girl came into the class. Tears were running down her eyes. She said, "I've just got to talk to you, I've just got to talk to you." I said, well, let me get the class started and we'll walk out in the hall." And she said, "my father kept us up with a gun, drunk, all night.” So I think I did more good not necessarily by teaching them art and shop, but I think I did more good in other ways. (51:00) I think I was more successful with them, because they’d come to me before they’d go to a counselor. Interviewer: So they must have trusted you, or you were the person that they could talk to. Gig Smith: Yeah, they knew that. And I had a little boy who was so sissy, it was just pitiful. And they were kidding him all the time because he couldn’t throw �a ball, or couldn’t throw like the boys threw. So one day, I asked him to bring a softball up after school, the first thing I said, was “just throw me the ball.” And he stepped on the wrong foot first, you know. Throwing right… and I said, no, change. And we stayed there fifteen, twenty minutes, until he could throw a ball. (52:00) And they didn’t kid him any more. But they were the types of things that I think were more meaningful to those kids than whether they could be a good artist or not. Interviewer: During the time when you were working there, did anybody know that you had been a professional ball player? Gig Smith: No, I didn’t dare tell anybody. When the movie came out, a friend of mine knew that I had played, and she called up the newspaper and didn’t tell me. And he called me and he said, I’d like for you to go and critique the movie with me. And the next day, there was a full spread in the newspaper with pictures and everything. I thought, oh dear Father, it is finally out. (53:00) I hadn’t told anybody because softball was not looked upon like tennis and golf, and yet it takes more strength to do those two, than it does for sometimes to play right field and wait for a ball to come to you. Interviewer: What did you think of the movie? Gig Smith: I thought it was funny, and I thought it also touched the human element. I thought it was really good. It was really good, I liked it. Interviewer: Were there parts of it that you thought were a little inaccurate or Hollywood-ish? Gig Smith: Oh, of course. Tom Hanks urinating for ten minutes? We would have thrown him out. Interviewer: What sort of managers did you have during the two years that you played? Gig Smith: (54:00) I had excellent managers. I had Johnny Rawlins – played for New York – and we had good managers, we really did. We had nice chaperones, we did. We were really restricted din what we could do. Interviewer: What kind of living accommodations did you have while you played? Gig Smith: Usually, we lived in somebody’s home. Interviewer: How did that work? Gig Smith: Well, I’m not going to tell you the first night I got there, because the next day, I asked to have a new roommate. I was with Al Hallet, who was one �of the leading pitchers at the time, and it was real good. She and Ruth Lessing, we used to chum around together. Interviewer: The people who were your best friends in these teams, were they some of the ones were older players closer to your age, or were some of them younger. (55:00) Gig Smith: I never thought about age, you know? Interviewer: Let’s go back to life afterward again. The movie comes out, and so forth. At what point do you start getting involved with the organization? Gig Smith: I went to the first reunion in Chicago and I’ve been associated with them ever since. That movie has opened up more doors me than you could imagine. I’ve been to the White House twice, they wanted somebody who had been in the service and also played in the league. They sent me to Hawaii to make speeches at the army bases there for equal opportunities. (56:00) They had a really nice program once a year for that type of thing, and I was guest of honor then. I didn't see much of Hawaii but I saw the army bases. Interviewer: At the time you were playing, did you have any sense that you were sort of making history or were doing something important? Gig Smith: No, no. All I knew was that we were keeping baseball alive for Mr.. Wrigley, because President Roosevelt had called him and said I'm afraid we're going to have to fold the men's league association because we need every man that we can get. He asked one of his assistants if we would dream up something to keep baseball alive, and he came back in a couple of days, and said, “why don’t you start a women’s league, and treat hem exactly the way you treat the men’s league and take them to Florida for spring training and fly them to Cuba to put on exhibition games, and let them come back up the east coasts all the way to their home teams just like the men’s?" (57:00) And that was what happened. But there was nothing equal in pay. We had to be on those hot old air-conditioned busses. We had some great players. We had one girl who pitched two perfect games, and when she wasn't pitching, she played third base, was married to the coach, and had a three-year-old son. Interviewer: That was Jean Fout. Gig Smith: Yeah. Interviewer: To what extent where you aware of where the league had come from or why they were doing it? (58:00) �Gig Smith: We knew why they were doing it. I’ll tell you something else that was interesting. When I went to the Pentagon -- it wouldn’t happen today -every enlisted man that came into that unit that we were working in at the Pentagon, was given a direct commission. They didn’t have to go to OCS. For every woman that came in there, she was given the privilege of going to OCS if she cared to go. That wouldn’t happen today. And I did not want to go. I turned it down when I came out of basic training, I could have gone then. I turned this one down because I was told that if I went to OCS – I was told by the people in the office – if I went there would be no chance of getting back. (59:00) I was with marvelous people. I was with people I admired and I respected and I was doing a terrific job, a job that really dealt directly with the war. That’s where I wanted to be, I didn’t want to leave, so I didn’t go. Interviewer: If you had been a man coming in, you would have been commissioned automatically? Gig Smith: Yeah. Automatically. No questions about it. Interviewer: As you look back on the whole thing now, how do you see what the significance of the league was? Gig Smith: Well, it’s opened up doors – unbelievable doors – for all of us I think. As I said, I’ve been to places I never would have gone before. (1:00:00) Interviewer: When you meet women athletes from later generations and so forth, what’s that like? Gig Smith: Awesome. What has happened for women in sports… Billie Jean King was just given a presidential honor for her job in passing Title IX, and I know for a fact -- I think she was given either a month or two months -she was ready to throw in the towel because she had been working for a couple of years on that, and all of a sudden they passed that. Thank goodness they did. You can give her full credit for that because she really put her career on the line and used her own money to do it. She’s to be admired. (1:01:00) Interviewer: And she’s someone who, in turn, admires your group and all the things you do. Gig Smith: I think so, I think so. She’s going to be our guest of honor, so I’m sure she does. �Interviewer: At this point, is there any important part of your story we’ve left out? Is there anything else you’d like to add here into the record before we close things out? Gig Smith: I’m just happy for the life I’ve had. Many times I thought it wasn’t going to work out, but everything’s worked out according to whatever divine… Interviewer: In general, what do you think the importance of sports – baseball and softball – what did that mean to you? How did that help you in your life, or what did you learn from the experience of playing? Gig Smith: You should have given me time to think that one through! (Laughter) (1:02:00) It has opened up so many doors, unbelievable doors, for me. The experience has been wonderful, and it’s still wonderful. I just wish I had about 20 more years to live. Interviewer: Well, I can tell you that you do have a wonderful story and you’ve done a wonderful job of telling it to us. Gig Smith: Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_HSmith Title A name given to the resource Smith, Helen "Gig" (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Helen Description An account of the resource Helen "Gig" Smith was born on January 5, 1922 in Richmond, Virginia. She began playing softball at the age of 13. She joined the Women's Army Corps after Pearl Harbor and later was attached on special assignment to the Pentagon to decrypt Japanese codes. In 1947, she joined the AAGPBL's Kenosha Comets and then in 1948 played for the Grand Rapids Chicks. During her time in the league she played the infield. In 1948, she left the league to pursue teaching art in Virginia. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5092a94e7a78b7c270892bde9e9df49f.m4v f07ec4764b9b29a611f08f1982cfb6d0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6531d57d37a35878d16b558e3f012b62.pdf a6e927403c9beeae56794767a3c57154 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW HELEN FILARSKI Women in Baseball Born: 1924 Detroit, MI Resides: Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit, Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, November 26, 2010 Interviewer: “Helen, if we could begin with your full name and where and when were you born?” My whole name is Helen Margaret Filarski and I was born in 1924. Interviewer: “Where?” In Detroit, Michigan Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you live?” I lived in Detroit, Michigan and most of the time it was—the war was on and there was no—it was before the war was on I should say and I was going to school in Detroit, the Catholic school. 14:17 Interviewer: “Did you wear a uniform?” No, not at first, it’s when you’re out of the eighth grade that you start with the uniform. Interviewer: “I had the white sox with the black shoes and the girls had the skirts with the white sox, yup, yup. Where did you live? I know it was Detroit, but did you live in an apartment or a house?” No, we lived in the east side of Detroit and my mother and father and there were seven children. The war was on and most of them at that time were in war plants because the war was on and everything, so we just stayed there and I went to Holy Name School for 1 �eight years and graduated from there and went to St. Joseph’s because my mother had gone there, so we all followed up in the Polish atmosphere. 15:46 Interviewer: “So you had neighborhood friends and did you play games?” Played games—I was one of seven children, so the girls, I didn’t consider myself a girl because I went with my brother and we played ball all the time. The boys got away with it you know, so I stuck with him and we played ball and most of my time with them we played and like everybody else, we had one bat and one ball and I got the job to sew the ball up every time after we played because we knocked the stuffing out of it, but then we had to sew it up before we could play a game. 16:41 I would keep that up and I went through grade school and I played all that way and then I went to high school. Interviewer: “Now, were there any organized sports at the school?” No, not at grade school they didn’t have any. Interviewer: “But you’re playing baseball basically with other neighbor kids?” We would get out of school and out we would go. We lived right next to a playground and that was one thing you know, we would go out the door and over the street and we played until it got dark and that was it every day you know. 17:34 Because I was a girl, my mother would call me every once in a while, “get in here and do the dishes”, and I didn’t enjoy that, but what do you do? We did that all my life through eighth grade then when I graduated out of grade school—oh, in the summer time my mother, since we were so poor and they didn’t have a job, my father got a job cleaning the streets at that time because there wasn’t any war plants. My mother would make a big lunch and everything and my dad would drive out to a plot that the city gave you and make a garden and we would sit out there all day working on the planting. 18:40 Then my dad would come 2 �back after he got through with his job and pick us up. There were about four of us at that time that went there and they took us home and we got ready for dinner and everything and that was every day, you know, that we had time to get over there. Interviewer: “By the time you got into high school, did you have any idea what you wanted to do through life? Were you going to be a nurse or be a mother, what were you thinking?” Well, through those years I played ball at the city park and I played with the girls that were in the league and mostly I was too young and that and I would pick-up the bats and chase the ball and stuff like that. 19:43 Interviewer: “So is this the actual professional girls’ baseball league?” Yes Interviewer: “How did you hear about them?” Oh, I learned a lot from them you know. Interviewer: “But how did you hear about them? How did you know they were there?” Here’s the playground, here’s the street, here’s my house, I mean we lived right upon it and anybody that would get on that field we could see and if there was an open space, a position open, I ran over there and played in it, the boys or whoever is playing. Interviewer: “How did you hear about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League though?” Alright, when we played, a bunch of girls were in the league and I got good enough to play with them and on their team, so I played and everybody said, “why don’t you go join us for this year, you’re good enough to go over there”. 20:52 3 �Interviewer: “So they were off season, they were from Detroit and they went to play wherever they played and when they came back, that’s when you were playing with them?” Yes Interviewer: “Ok, now I get it, so did you go and talk to your mom and dad about it?’ Oh, I kept talking to her all the time, but it was no use and she would say, “girls don’t play ball, just come in the house and do some work around the house”, all housework all the time. Interviewer: “You had told me a story about how you heard about tryouts in Chicago, let’s hear that story.” Through the girls, we kept going to the park and that and I heard the story about it and the girls kept asking me, “come on, come on with us, don’t stay here”, so I went and asked my mother and she said, “you’re too young, you can’t leave home alone, you’re too young to go”, and she said, “Al Capone is in here and he’s trying to get a league together of women and it’s not for playing ball and you’re not going anywhere near that playground again”, so it just kept a going and I kept playing there. 22:27 I kept playing until I got out of high school. Interviewer: “So you had to have her permission to be able to join the league and she wouldn’t let you.” No Interviewer: “So when you turned was it eighteen? What did you do?” 4 �Eighteen, yes and I said, “I’ll run away”, and she didn’t like the idea of me running away, so she said, “let me talk to some of the girls, Connie Wisnwiewski, and a lot of the girls that were on the team and they were my friends and I had them over and everything and she talked to them and they said, “she’ll be all right, we’ll take care of her”, and I was about the youngest one there then and when I got to spring training they got me in real good you know. “You Polock, you go and stay in the room and when we call you bring down the fire escape and bring us in”, so that’s what I was doing for a while. 23:40 I was the best friend. Interviewer: “So your mom finally says it’s ok to go. What does your dad think about all this?” My dad didn’t care. Hhe didn’t care. Interviewer: “So, how did you actually go to the spring training? Did you go by train, did you go by bus?” We did, we went by train. Interviewer: “And you were with the other girls that you knew, so you felt kind of taken care of?” Yes, placing you where you were going to play, I got on a team, Rockford, with no friends of mine and I didn’t know anybody. Interviewer: “Did you have to try out? Did you have to try out for the team?” Yes Interviewer: “What was that experience? What was that like, the tryouts?” You’re scared, you’re scared and there were girls from the league out there and they would hit the ball to me. Connie Wisnwiewski was the best pitcher there was at the time, 5 �so she would do the pitching—running and everything, teaching you, but they made a fool of me. 25:04 They’ll do that, they will kid around with ya, but I tried to do it my own same way. Interviewer: “But you got in.” Oh yeah, I got in Interviewer: “That must have been a happy day?” Oh, it was fine, but it took me and got me into a house. When you get on a team they check you into a house, so this was mom and dad Gorenson and they had no children and they had a beautiful home and everything, but they said to them, “keep an eye on her because she’s underage and we don’t want any problems”, so it was “where you going?” They kept their eye on me. 25:57 Interviewer: “Did you have a room mate?” Yes, she was a movie star, Kay Rohrer, and she would go out and she would say, “don’t forget, I will call you when I want to come back in”, so she would call and if we were on the road, she would call and I’d let down the fire escape otherwise I would wait and put the light on so she would see the light and that the road was clear and she would come in and we did that for two seasons. Interviewer: “What was your first season like as a rookie?” 26:36 Scared, you’re really scared when you play with these gals who know their position and what’s going on instead of waiting for someone to say, “now you go there and you go there”. They put you in your position and they taught you—you learned and you would stay on that field until you fell down. You learned to not be afraid of the ball and it was good, it was really great. 27:12 6 �Interviewer: “What position did you play the first season?” Third base Interviewer: “As a rookie, did you start or did you sit on the bench a lot?” No, I started I started. Interviewer: “Even though you were scared, you must have been pretty good?” I didn’t mind it and I was tough you know, I would run and go after that ball because I was going to stop it if it killed me. When you were a rookie, you were going to fight your heart out and that’s what I did and it was a strong team. Interviewer: “Any particular game that you remember from the first season? Was there anything that you did that was good or maybe made a mistake?” 28:03 I don’t know, I’m telling you; I ended up in the hospital. Interviewer: “What happened?” Well, I got spiked a couple of times down my legs sliding into third base you know and I think that’s what the worst one was, but that was it. Interviewer: “How did you like the uniform?” Oh, it was free you know and they gave you a lot of free time there. Interviewer: “Did you have to alter it at all for your height or anything?” The first year no, but the second year we did because it was a little bit long. Interviewer: “One of the girls said the difficulty was that she played in the outfield and as you reached down for the ball, you got dress and you didn’t get the ball you got the skirt.” Right, it’s just like in the infield, you’re down here and you go down for the ball and here—the ball is right there. 29:14 7 �Interviewer: “Now, once you finished your first season, you came back home to Detroit?” Oh yeah Interviewer: “Then what did you do when you got home? Were you still in school? You were out of school, right?” No, no I wasn’t in school, but in-between there I went to the war factory. I was two years in the war factory and then I was able to—my age could get me out you know, so that’s where I went. Interviewer: “You were in Detroit though?” Yes Interviewer: “So that was one of the factories that was supporting the war.” Yes Interviewer: “So then how did you—your second season, did they send you a letter? Did they call up your house and say we want a new contract?” Yeah, they send a letter and tell you it’s—we met in spring training. Interviewer: “Ok, and once again you took the train?” 30:12 Yes Interviewer: “Did you still travel with the same girls that you did before?” Oh yeah, there were about seven or eight of us from Detroit that—and every year they probably picked up on or two girls, so it got big and it was very nice. Interviewer: “So the second year you weren’t a rookie any more?” No, no and boy, you better know your steps. It was great and you just knew what you were doing. 8 �Interviewer: “How were the fans?” Oh, the fans just loved ya I’m telling ya. They would be in there and we had a lot of attendance. They were there all the time. It was great. Interviewer: “Now you played some games at home and then you also had road trips?” Yes, four games at home one time and three on the road and then three home and four on the road. Interviewer: “What were the road trips like?” Bumpy, we just had a beat-up bus and oh my god I’m telling you it was really something. It was worse than these that go down the street. 31:34 Interviewer: “These were fairly long trips by bus?” A lot of them, like you would go to Chicago, that was a long one from Peoria or something like that. That was about the longest one I think, from Peoria over into Chicago there. Interviewer: “Now, when you stopped along the way were you just able to walk out with in your blue jeans?” No, if you stopped there and you intended to get off the bus you gotta put your skirt on. You couldn’t be seen in public in shorts or anything like that. 32:16 Interviewer: “Right, did you have to go through the charm school, the school?” Ya, it was the first year the charm school was there. Interviewer: “I’m sorry, I should have gotten back—how was that?” 9 �Oh, everybody laughed about it at first. They made us scared you know, because we couldn’t get out there and play ball because we were doing this and everything you know, and what did we want to do that for. Interviewer: “Did you have to have a book on your head?” No, but some did Interviewer: “Well, did they ask you to sit down in a certain way? Did you also learn how to use the knife and fork and things like that?” Well, your woman who taught us-Interviewer: “Helena Rubenstein?” 33:27 Yeah, she was one, and they taught us how to get up and how to sit down and some of them would just mock them and come in and plop down. Interviewer: “But this was new to you, you were a city girl, right and playing with the boys and now you got to sit this way?” Yes, and I was scared and you would get scared at doing these things, but I loved it just as much. Interviewer: “Did any of those things carry on for the rest of your life? Do you still sit that way?” No, no and if I want to sit down, I sit down. 34:17 Interviewer: “So, your second season, you’re not a rookie anymore and you’re still playing third base?” Yes Interviewer: “Any games that you can think of that were a little bit unusual and did you have a good year?” 10 �Oh, we had a good year, we won the championship the first year that I played and that was good. Interviewer: “Because of you?” No, I helped a little bit and I had a good year there and if I couldn’t do it with my glove, I would do it with my body. Interviewer: “You said earlier that your family was not wealthy and you were making pretty good money weren’t you?” Yeah, it was more than I did in the factory. I mean we were still at the war a couple more years I think into it and we were still at war. Interviewer: “Did you send money home?” 35:20 Yeah, oh yeah I sent it and I didn’t have anyplace to spend it because you can’t do anything anyway. Interviewer: “At that time Helen, you’re a professional baseball player and whether your mother believed it or not, you really were a professional baseball player. Were you thinking that was something you were going to keep doing every year?” Well, I didn’t hear about it at first, but I wanted to get into it and once I got into it I loved it you know. Interviewer: “But did you think you were going to be able to play this for a number of years?” No, I would just do it day by day and figure it out just as good as you can and you do what you can. 11 �Interviewer: “Did you have any idea what you wanted to do professionally with your life? Did you want to become a nurse or did you want to become anything?” No, I just wanted to play ball all day long. 36:31 Interviewer: “So, at the end of the second season you came back to Detroit and you worked in the same factory?” No, you couldn’t go back there. Interviewer: “So, did you get a job?” No, I don’t think I did. Interviewer: “You were living at home with mom and dad?” Yeah, and working around there. Interviewer: “Now the third season comes along and you’re not playing for the same team anymore, right?” Let me see, I went to Peoria and Kenosha for one year after that and then went to South Bend for three years. Interviewer: “But the Kenosha experience—how come they transferred you to Kenosha? Do you remember why?” 37:29 Well, they probably had an opening. Either somebody got hurt or you never know if they didn’t have a good player there. Interviewer: “So, you’re playing with one team and the next thing you know you’re playing with another team.” That’s right, you can go overnight, a lot of times you play ball that night and then as soon as you start packing in the dressing room and out you go to another city. That’s how they went when they were short on players. 12 �Interviewer: “Was the experience at Kenosha a good one?” Oh yeah, it was a good one, getting use to the girl next to you, you know, it takes a little time, so they make you play a little longer and you get different plays and it works out good, so I stayed there for that year. 38:37 Interviewer: “Good, then back again to Detroit?” Yes Interviewer: “And then you play another year?” Yeah Interviewer: “This time you’re with the new team, South Bend and they had a pretty good team didn’t they?” Oh yes, they did and three years I played with them and they were very good. They had a lot of old time ball players. I mean they didn’t get any new ones like the other teams got and it’s hard to get use to playing next to somebody like that, going after the ball or playing to the right team. 39:38 Interviewer: “Now, you’re playing for a number of years as a professional baseball player and even at that point you’re still not thinking that this is going to be your career?” Yes Interviewer: “Did you think that you were just going to keep playing?” I never thought that it would last that long you know. We played night after night wondering how long we were going to be together because sometimes they were talking you know, about breaking up and things like that, but we never did, so we just kept on playing. 13 �Interviewer: “What was your last year? You lasted until?” 1950 Interviewer: “The league went on until 1954, how come you left in 1950?” 40:31 I got married, yes in 1950 I got married Interviewer: “And you just decided that you weren’t going you play baseball anymore?” Yeah, and things were getting different and my boyfriend Donald Steffes said, “it’s either me or baseball”, so I quit and got married. Interviewer: “So, after that, after you finished, did you miss playing baseball?” Oh, yeah you do Interviewer: “Did you ever play another sport after that?” No, I was married and lived the married life. Interviewer: “Did you talk about your baseball experience after you were done?” 41:34 Oh, we always talked about it, anyone we met we talked about it and I use to come to the reunions too and continue to come. Interviewer: “Well, how did you hear about—did you come to the first reunion?” Yeah, I think I’ve been to all of them, oh yeah. Interviewer: “All of them, now let me ask you a real dumb question, why do you come to the reunions?” To see, to meet and talk baseball, that’s all we do you know, we get there and we tell about all these crazy plays we make or something and they will say, “oh, you were so 14 �dumb, you were supposed to the other base”, and they all laugh about it you know. It was great and the best part of my life. Interviewer: “What are some of the stories that you tell at the reunion?” 42:32 Oh, I don’t know Interviewer: “Well third base gets a lot of action.” Oh yeah, yeah it does Interviewer: “Especially when you have bases loaded.” Right, right Interviewer: “Well, let me ask you this, you did talk about your experiences with baseball and a lot of the girls never talked about it, didn’t tell their kids, didn’t tell anybody.” Oh yeah, you ought to see my room and what I got, pictures and everything and I’ve gotta—and after seeing those pictures downstairs I start saying mine aren’t so good because they’re great. Interviewer: “Were people interested in talking about baseball?” Anybody that met me would talk about it and, “are you still playing?” The first question anybody will ask you, “are you still going back?” 43:31 Interviewer: “Did you get a chance to see the movie “A League of Their Own”?” Yeah, we were in it, we were in it and we were showing them how not to throw it so hard and we laughed and had more fun with that. Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?” We thought it was great and I thought it was great. A lot of them that saw it came out came out of their shell and said, “never knew there was any ball league”, and those 15 �pictures they had over here, they aught to put them in a book. You talk to somebody and they say, “I didn’t know that”. 44:30 Interviewer: “What do you make of all the—the movie came out and in some ways you’re treated like movie stars. What do you think about that?” Well, we were for a while there you know. We did some crazy things with them I’m telling you. Every time you would hit the ball or something they would say, “don’t throw it so hard”, or something and we just sat down and laughed because they wanted to make the picture, but they didn’t want to do the business, but it was great, the whole thing you know. Interviewer: “You went to Cooperstown?” Yes Interviewer: “How was that experience of getting inducted into the hall of fame?” That was great, that was the first time I saw the whole thing you know and it is just beautiful there. 45:30 Interviewer: “the movie, I thought, did a pretty good job out of showing the reactions of the players in there and were you in that scene in the movie?” Yes Interviewer: “I’ll look for you the next time I look at it, Ok?” Yes Interviewer: “It’s interesting because I teach at the university level and the kids are usually anywhere from eighteen to twenty and when I told them I’m doing this documentary about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and A league of their Own, they get all excited over it.” 16 �Everybody loves it and they say, “are you—did you see that picture?” I say, “ yeah, I was in it”, and they say, “you were?” It was really great and we loved it all the time we were working on it. Interviewer: “That was just a few years of your life, a small part of your life, but how do you look back on that period now? How do you look at it? Is it some thing that’s very special to you or is it something that just happened? Have you had a chance to think about it?” 46:41 It’s very special to me because I lived for it and a month before I had to leave town, I was packing, so it meant everything to us and kids would say, “where is everybody?” They are different people you know and there was something, the love for the game and we still loved the people around there and talked to them. We didn’t think we were stars or anything. Interviewer: “But you played professional baseball.” 47:41 Yeah, that’s right Interviewer: “One other question for you, did your mom ever get a chance to see you play baseball?” Yes, I think she saw one game and she would say, “I’m not going to watch you get hurt, I can’t watch you get hurt”, and that’s the first thing she always thought of. She would say, “you’re going to get hurt”, and I said, “well when the ball is hit to me real hard, I’ll get out of the way ma”, and she would say, “Yeah, I’ll believe that when I see it” Interviewer: “You said earlier that your dad didn’t care one way or the other, did he get a chance to see you play?” 48:28 17 �He probably did, but he wasn’t interested in it. Girls should be in the house, you know, and wash the dishes. I’m so sick of washing dishes. Interviewer: “When did your parents find out that you played for the league? Did they know early on?” Not really, not really it didn’t mean anything to them that I went out of town. They thought anybody can do that, we all play ball. Interviewer: “But that all changed.” Oh yeah and as the years go by it means more to them. Interviewer: “You have a special family her, this—you have your own family, but you have another family that’s all these other girls and all their daughters and their sons and whatnot.” We have a big family when we all get together and they all feel the same way and the mothers talk just like they do, you know. 49:47 Interviewer: “What do you think about this All American Girls Professional Baseball League? It’s part of American history now.” Yes, yes it is Interviewer: “Did you ever think it was going to be that big of a deal?” No, it was getting slowly and they would get it out there once in a while, but they get it out there now and everybody says, “A League of Their Own is on”, and everybody is going and I say, “A League of Their Own”. Interviewer: “If it’s on TV I can’t change the channel, I just—I don’t care where it starts or where it ends, I just watch it. My favorite scene is the Tom Hanks and Geena Davis when she’s about to go with her husband and leave and she said it got 18 �too hard and he said, “It’s supposed to be hard, if it wasn’t hard everybody could do it”. 50:46 Yeah Interviewer: “That’s an amazing scene and I use that in class, you gotta work at it.” It makes sense Interviewer: “did you get a chance to travel to other countries? Some of the girls went to Cuba.” Yes, I did Interviewer: “How was that experience?” I don’t know really. Interviewer: “Just another ball game?” It’s another ball game, it’s another country and they start talking and I say, “ya, ya, sure”, you don’t know what they’re talking about and they touch you. We were walking in a parade coming to the stadium one time and they touch you and get on the floor and holler, they just go out of their minds. They toss somebody and the guys that are keeping the line straight and they go up to them and are beating them with a Billy club and they didn’t care how they hit them. 52:05 Interviewer: “The public was just going crazy about it, so the police came?” Outside yeah, the police would get them if they would stick in their hand to touch you. Interviewer: “Where else did you travel to besides Cuba? Did you go any other places?” Yeah, I went on the train, I’m trying to think where I went in the wintertime. I played somewhere, I forgot already. 19 �Interviewer: “Was it South America? No” I was in Puerto Rico Interviewer: “Once again, just another ball game?” Yeah Interviewer: “No Billy clubs this time I hope.” No, sometimes they will just run in and do something and run out. Somebody had been talking and they said it’s like holy people when they run out and throw their arms up and holler. It’s something sacred and that’s why they come and run out. You got to stop it because the parade is going on. 53:33 Interviewer: “They thought you were somehow holy people, huh?” Yeah, little do they know, huh? Interviewer: “Well Helen it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Is there any story that you just want to be able to tell because I know you talk to your friends about things. Are there any stories that you can think of off the top of your head?” Right now I can’t remember. Interviewer: “All right.” 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_HFilarski Title A name given to the resource Filarski, Helen (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Filarski, Helen Description An account of the resource Helen Filarski Steffes was born in Detroit, Michigan in 1924. She grew up playing baseball with boys in the neighborhood. She met some of the players from the All American league who encouraged her to try out, and went on to play third base for Rockford, Peoria, Kenosha and South Bend between 1944 and 1950. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Illinois Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-02 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives