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                  <text>Faces of Grand Valley</text>
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                  <text>Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183).&#13;
&#13;
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                  <text>&lt;a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D"&gt;Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Black and white photograph featuring an outdoor portrait of Len Miller in Wroxton, England. Scanned from the negative.</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783"&gt;Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>1970s</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                  <text>Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner &amp; Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. </text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
World War II
Dewey Lenger
Length of Interview (01:06:20)
(00:13) Family and Work Life Pre-Enlistment


Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on may 21, 1922. Completed grades 1-4 in
Hopkins, Michigan
 Father was a manufacturer of furniture in Hopkins, Michigan until the Great
Depression hit (00:33).
 Father sold popcorn for a bit and then bought and sold used cars for the rest of his
work life (01:07).
 Had 3 brothers and 3 sisters. He was the 3rd child born (01:42).
 Completed high school at Davis Tech in downtown Grand Rapids (01:57).
 He worked in a Muskegon factory doing machine work for about a 1-½ years
after high school. He carpooled with other men and worked 10-12 hours a day.
They manufactured goods for the Navy (02:15).
 At the time US Highway 31 was a two-lane road and was not a pleasant drive,
especially in the winter months (03:00).
 Dewey was employed at the factory when Pearl Harbor occurred and he heard of
the event on the radio (03:10).
 He did not pay much attention to events in Europe prior to the attack on Pearl
Harbor (03:28).
 Could have obtained a draft deferment due to his job at the factory (03:53).
 Actually saw an article in the paper announcing that exams for flying cadets were
being held. It was a 3-hour exam, which Dewey passed. He then received a
physical and was released from the draft board (04:51).
 He received a letter from the war department stating he needed to report, in
Detroit for service the day after he got the letter (07:00).
(07:40) Enlistment and Training
 In 1942 Dewey and his cousin, who enlisted at the same time, drove to Detroit to
report for duty.
 Dewey had been interested in flying since a young age (08:06).
 Once in Detroit they were among hundreds of other men and waited for their
names to be called to find out their next destination. He got a train for 2 days and
3 nights and then arrived in Florida. Next, they were put on a truck, which took
them to Miami Beach (08:30).
 They stayed in a hotel (09:40).
 Basic military training lasted about 8-10 weeks in Miami (09:55).
 Training took place on golf courses. Consisted of shooting and arms training,
discipline, and field maneuvers (10:23).
 The drill sergeants had previous service experience. Dewey adjusted to military
life easily (10:40).

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Essentially, all the men he was with were part of flight training (11:15).
They took tests and physicals before being sent to the next level of training
(11:39).
After basic military training, Dewey was sent to Cincinnati, Ohio for College
Training Detachment (CTD) (11:48).
He had been a sergeant in the Michigan Guard, which allowed him to move ahead
(professionally) quicker (11:50).
While in Cincinnati they completed some college work, military training, and
general conditioning. Prior to WWII pilots were required to have 2 years of
college experience. The CTD program satisfied this requirement (13:00).
Exam made individuals eligible (14:00).
Spent 2 months in Cincinnati. They studied at night, because they had little
money to do other activities (14:12).
Dorms were divided into upperclassmen and lowerclassmen (14:50).
After Cincinnati he was sent to San Antonio, Texas to a classification center
where he took more tests and completed physicals (15:34).
Was sent to Randolph Air Force Base for a heart check, which he passed. He was
ale to continue on with his unit for pre-flight school (16:00).
Pre-flight school and training consisted of groundwork, such as, map, history,
Morse code, and drills. There was also an emphasis on aircraft identification
(16:38).
After pre-flight training you would be sent to a new location to learn how to fly.
Dewey was sent to a small, private base in Stamford, Texas in the panhandle.
Primary school for flying (17:52).
His instructors were civilians and he trained on a single engine, open cockpit
aircraft, PT-19 (18:04).
He was stationed here during the fall and winter. He had an excellent instructor.
His first solo flight was thrilling and he learned various types of maneuvers,
including inverted flying (18:36).
He spent 9 weeks in Stamford, Texas and had roughly 2 hours of flight time a
day. He also continued to learn navigation and other essential skills in ground
school (20:00).
There were no major accidents or incidents during this period of training (21:00).
After primary school you would continue on to basic flight training. Here Dewey
learned to fly a more sophisticated, larger aircraft, the BT-13 (21:34).
Flight simulation was being incorporated into the program (23:00).
This was more dangerous school and people were lost or injured during training.
At this point, men began to be weeded out of the program based on performance
and capabilities (23:15).
During this time, he stayed on base mostly, because there was not much to do.
The residents were hospitable to the cadets (24:45).
The next step of training was advanced flight school, which involved a twin
engine, full instrument aircraft, the AT-10 (25:07).
An aspect of training was to fly with a hood over your head. This forced and
individual to rely only on the instruments for navigation (25:30).

�

He did not keep track of flight time. At times they would fly hundreds of miles,
which allowed the to experience day to night flying (26:13).
 Night flying meant you had to adjust your perspective of flying. More accidents
occurred during this phase of training (27:14).
 Dewey almost collided with another plane (28:00).
 Once advanced training was completed, you were commissioned. Dewey was
commissioned on June 27, 1944 (28:43).
 He was sent home for 10 days before active duty (29:10).
(29:22) Active Duty Texas
 He spent a few weeks at administration school in San Antonio, Texas before
going to Waco Field, where he did maintenance and test flights of planes. This
was primarily the A-10 (29:26).
 There were holding stations where men could volunteer to fly specific planes.
Dewey wanted to fly the P-38 Lightning (fighter plane) (29:56).
 He spent a 1 ½ in Waco and then went to Greensburg, North Carolina and New
Jersey by train (30:44).
 At this time, he was not trained in the C-46 or C-47 (31:22).
(31:30) Active Duty Europe
 From Camp Kilmer in New Jersey he boarded a passenger ship bound for
Scotland. The trip lasted 7 days and was initially rough (31:48).
 Many men became seasick (33:06).
 The camp in Scotland was crude, wet, and muddy. They stayed in barracks. Once
your name was called you took a train to the next destination (33:21).
 He went to an RAF base, a large field with permanent structures (33:52).
 His first flight in a C-47 was as a co-pilot and they took a glider to another field
(34:20).
 There was continued training covering night flights and large formations (35:00).
 On one 3-3-½ hour mission Dewey was paired with a pilot who had vertigo and
could not fly. He took over as first pilot and maintained this position (35:27).
 Primarily, flew alone and at times had gliders in tow (36:110.
 Flying the C-47, he carried troops and cargo to the European fronts (36:47).
 There was a specific flight pattern followed to and from the island of England
(37:23).
 One group that he was with would not fly over any aircraft in the English Channel
due to the fear of friendly fire (38:00).
 Dewey flew to France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, and Austria (38:37).
o (39:23) Battle of the Bulge
 His mission was to bring troops and equipment to the front. He
was able to make a drop in a field and as he flew back to England
the only lights he saw were from Paris.
 Once they returned the fog rolled in and they were grounded for 3
days. They could not get supplies to the front (40:22).
 Once the fog lifted, they immediately continued the mission and
took men and cargo to the front (41:05).

�

They also took fuel to Patton, because he was moving quickly. The
fuel was stored in jerry cans and locked down (41:15).
 When they flew longer distances they would store fuel in tanks behind the
bulkheads. They needed this surplus, because they did not always return to base at
night (41:48).
 Many times they simply landed in fields (42:30).
 Moved to a base in northern France with a short, single runway. They lived in
tents there (42:55).
o (45:14) Operation Varsity
 There prepared and practiced for the mission, but did not know the
exact nature of it (45:23).
 Dewey’s plane carried Canadians. They were towards the front of
the formation. The leaders dropped their paratroopers and then the
rest followed in sequence (46:33).
 There was anti-aircraft fire and they were flying very low, about
400-500 feet (47:18).
 The parachutes were rigged to open when the paratroopers dropped
from the plane. There was no margin for error and pilots had to fly
level (48:05).
 This was the most dangerous mission he knowingly flew (48:30).
 Gliders came in behind them (48:50).
 Saw commander and roommate go down with their airplane, but he
was too busy trying to complete his task to care at that moment
(49:00).
 Formation broke up (49:17).
 He was lucky to not get hit (49:13).
 After the war he stayed at his base for a time and then moved south of Paris to
Orly Field (49:45).
 Last months in Europe he transported men, food, clothing, etc (50:30).
 Went to Tempelhof, Germany (50:55).
 Communication was poor with the French primarily. There was limited contact
with civilians. Worked mostly and transported wounded (52:58).
 Point system (52:54).
 Received order to return home June 1946 (53:25).
 When they did have time off they took trains and buses to the cities (53:37).
(54:50) After the War
 He took a train from Paris to Munich where he got a physical check and then took
a train to Le Havre, France where he boarded a victory ship to America (55:00).
 The ship was small and it was a rough ride, but they arrived at Camp Kilmer, New
Jersey safely (55:34).
 From there he went to Chicago to be processed and then was sent home (56:01).
 He did not join the reserves right away, but rather he did nothing for 3 months and
helped his dad with his business. However, he did join the reserves within 6
months of being active duty (56:20).
 He retired from the reserves June 27, 1976 as lieutenant colonel (57:08).

�
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



He took classes and marched in parades. Would have liked it to operate more as it
does today. He also taught classes and was able to do some flying (57:50).
He started his own business repairing and transporting mobile homes (59:27).
He really enjoyed his time in the service and would do it again (01:00:00).
Special memories (01:03:30).
Overall, he learned to be self-sufficient and more independent, even more so than
bomber pilots (01:05:45).

�</text>
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                <text>Dewey Lenger was part of the United States Army Air Force during World War II. He took a cadets exam that allowed him to bypass the general draft and eventually become a pilot. He was set to Europe and assigned to fly transport planes, which he had not trained in, and learned to tow gliders and drop paratroops as well as regular cargo missions. He flew first from a British base, and later from a French one. He ferried fuel to Patton's army, dropped supplies for American troops during the Battle of the Bulge, and carried Canadian paratroopers during Operation Varsity.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
World War II
Sid Lenger

Interview Length: (01:15:19:00)
Pre-enlistment / Training (00:01:37:00)
 Born in Wyoming, Michigan in 1918 above a shoe store (00:01:37:00)
o At the time, his family had a pot-belly stove in the living room and there was a
pump downstairs that they had to carry water from (00:01:57:00)
 His father worked at a meat market below their apartment (00:02:11:00)
o His father would go out on a horse and ring a bell as advertisement; when he later
got an automobile, his father did the same thing (00:02:15:00)
o Lenger’s father managed to keep his stores through the Great Depression and he
actually sold one of them (00:02:29:00)
 Lenger’s grandfather worked next door in the shoe store (00:02:38:00)
 At the time, they did not buy shoes in boxes; a person came in and
was fitted for a shoe, then the shoe was made and the person came
back later (00:02:48:00)
 Lenger’s grandfather wanted to retire, so another man bought the shoe
store and Lenger’s father built a new store for the man on the other side of
the road (00:02:57:00)
 Lenger’s grandfather already owned a building there, so they
moved that building down the street and built the new one for the
man to continue Lenger’s grandfather’s business (00:03:16:00)
 In 1927, Lenger’s family moved into good-sized house they had built; it was considered
modern for the time because there was an inside bathroom and electric lights instead of
the gas burning lights (00:03:30:00)
 Lenger’s family did not face many problems during the Depression because his father
still ran the meat market; his father’s main problem was collecting money (00:04:01:00)
o His father came out of the Depression very well, so he wrote a letter that was
published in the newspaper saying no one owed him money any more; he figured
that if God had blessed him that much, he was willing to forgive the people owing
him money (00:04:08:00)
 Lenger attending school through the twelfth grade at Lee High School (00:04:46:00)
o After school let out, Lenger worked for his father in a meat market; he rode his
bike to the market and worked there at night (00:04:55:00)
o He earned a dollar a week, which was pretty good; he was one of the richest kids
in the school (00:05:14:00)
o Following high school graduation, Lenger went into business with his father; his
father eventually turned a store over to Lenger, who ran it as a grocery / meat
market until he was drafted (00:05:22:00)
 Before Pearl Harbor, Lenger and his family followed the conflict in Europe; because they
had a radio, they would listen to the news (00:05:50:00)

�










o Lenger’s fathers always told him to watch out for Russians and Germans;
Germans shopped at the meat market and Lenger’s father always told him to
watch them because a slip of the tongue could cause problems (00:06:06:00)
When the attack on Pearl Harbor happened, Lenger’s wife was pregnant and on Dec. 7th,
he took her to the hospital and their first daughter was born (00:06:30:00)
o While they were there, they heard news over the radio that Pearl Harbor had been
bombed and Lenger’s wife became worried the Japanese were going to bomb the
hospital (00:06:45:00)
Lenger had registered for the draft when he was in high school (00:07:05:00)
o Lenger was simply waiting for his number to be called and when it was called, he
had to go to Detroit for a physical examination; at the examination, the doctors
found out that Lenger was warm, so he passed (00:07:25:00)
He received his draft notice three weeks before Memorial Day in 1944 (00:07:44:00)
o Following the examination, the military told Lenger he had three weeks to get rid
of everything he owned and report for training (00:08:22:00)
o After the three weeks, all the men had to go back to Detroit to report; they
reported the day before Memorial Day, so they sat in Detroit doing nothing while
everybody else was out celebrating (00:08:27:00)
From Detroit, the men shipped out to Great Lakes, Illinois, a training center
(00:08:39:00)
The man who interviewed Lenger in Detroit asked Lenger what branch he wanted, Army
or Navy; when Lenger said the Navy, the man said he was in the Army, but he still put
down the Navy on Lenger’s paperwork (00:08:48:00)
o The Navy needed sailors to work on the LST fleet; at that time, the LST was the
most important ship in the Navy because they allowed the Navy to land troops
instead of just moving them around (00:09:09:00)
Great Lakes was north of Chicago, on Lake Michigan and near Wisconsin (00:09:34:00)
o There was a large number of barracks on the base, with around fifty men to a
barracks building (00:09:51:00)
o Every morning, the men went out and exercised, namely calisthenics and
swimming, all of which was meant to build the men up physically (00:09:59:00)
o Lenger knew how to play the trumpet, so he ended up joining the drum and bugle
corps; on the 4th of July, they went to a parade in Racine, Wisconsin, which was
nice to be able to get out of the base for a while (00:10:09:00)
o The main order was that the men had better obey a command, with the last
command being obeyed first (00:10:31:00)
 On one side of the drill field was a large pile of big rocks and if a man did
not follow directions, then he had to carry the rocks from one side of the
field to the other (00:10:42:00)
o Lenger had no trouble adapting to military life; when he was a butcher, they did
not have any electric saws and they had to carry around the meat, so Lenger was
in pretty good shape when he went into the military (00:11:13:00)
 He ended up coming in second for the strength test (00:11:27:00)
o He was older than everyone else he trained with; Lenger was twenty-five and the
other men were eighteen and nineteen (00:11:36:00)

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Lenger spent six weeks at Great Lakes and after the six weeks, he had one week at home
before having to report back to the Navy Pier in Chicago (00:11:46:00)
o The men spent a little more than a week at the Navy Pier before they shipped over
to Seneca, Illinois, where the LSTs were being built; from Seneca, each man
boarded his new LST (00:12:08:00)
o Chicago was good to the men; Lenger could get on the “L” trains for nothing and
take it to Benton Harbor, Michigan and then hitch-hike his way back home to
Grand Rapids (00:12:50:00)
Following Great Lakes, Lenger first went to the Navy base in Little Creek, Virginia, then
to the base at Little Neck and finally to Camp Bradford, also in Virginia (00:13:29:00)
o Each base had different training for the men, including: working with gasoline,
fire fighting, and at Camp Bradford, more gun training with the 20 mm, the 40
mm, and rifles (00:13:37:00)
 All the training was all standard for men getting ready to deploy on an
LST (00:14:24:00)
Lenger’s timing was just right to catch his LST; some of the other men who were before
him spent more time training in different areas, such as being the quartermaster on the
ship (00:14:33:00)
o They had three quartermasters on their ship, the maximum allowed limit, but
Lenger asked to be a quartermaster (00:14:50:00)
 When a man on the ship said there was not room for advancement and the
ship was full, Lenger said he did not mind it because he had not joined the
military for advancement (00:15:02:00)
 During the 1940s, Lenger’s father owned a twenty-five foot cruiser on
Lake Michigan and they would charter the boat; when they did so, Lenger
worked with the charters, a job he enjoyed (00:15:20:00)
o Lenger did not want to work in the engine room because of the heat; when he
worked as quartermaster, Lenger had to change the clocks whenever they went
into a new time zone and when he went into the engine room to change the
clocks, especially at the Equator, it got pretty hot (00:15:43:00)
o Being a quartermaster meant Lenger was partly in charge of the ship; in the
wheelhouse, there were three men: one was on the log, the second was on the
wheel, and the third was on the enunciator, which controlled the speed of the ship
(00:16:10:00)
 Lenger and the other quartermasters worked in four hour shifts, so they
would change positions (00:16:38:00)
 Also, every fifteen minutes, a quartermaster had to go to the back of the
ship and keep a log of the weather conditions; if anything happened,
information would be logged (00:16:53:00)
Chicago liked the sailors and Norfolk did not (00:17:28:00)
o The men went out only once while in Norfolk (00:17:36:00)
 They started walking and then decided to take a bus; however, the bus had
a sign that read “sailors and soldiers, thirty-five cents; civilians, ten cents”
(00:17:41:00)
 The men did not have that kind of money; Lenger’s paycheck was only
four dollars a month, so he did not have a lot of money (00:17:52:00)

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The men hiked around for a little bit and it was not uncommon to see signs
in the lawn saying “sailors and dogs keep off the grass” (00:18:04:00)
 Lenger could see their point because there were so many young
kids fresh out of high school (00:18:14:00)
 They eventually stopped at a restaurant that had ten cents cups of coffee,
but thirty-five cent cups for soldiers (00:18:24:00)
Lenger was in Virginia for about three weeks to finish his training; once the training was
complete, the Navy shipped the men back to Navy Pier and then onto the LST in Seneca,
a suburb of Chicago, maybe forty or fifty miles outside of the city (00:18:46:00)
o The city was on the Illinois River, so the men took their LST, which had already
been launched by the time they got there, down the river to the Mississippi River,
which took them down to New Orleans (00:19:17:00)
o Once in New Orleans, they put the mast and anything with height onto the ship
because they could not fit under the bridges otherwise (00:19:33:00)
 Normally, ship went about eight or nine knots but going down the
Mississippi, they hit thirteen knots (00:19:41:00)
o Lenger only got off the LST once it reached New Orleans (00:20:05:00)
Lenger and his wife had their third child while he was sailing down the river to New
Orleans (00:20:15:00)
o After about a week in training, Lenger received word that he had another son, so
he received permission to take a plane home; he was home over Sunday to have
the baby baptized and then he had to leave on Monday (00:20:21:00)
o When Lenger went into the service, he sold his business; he and his wife had three
weeks following his physical examination to decided if they wanted to sell their
house, their car, or their business (00:21:22:00)
 They knew they were going to sell the business and that gave Lenger’s
wife money to survive while he was gone (00:21:41:00)
o Lenger also took out life insurance, although he did need to; the Army took ten
dollars of his pay every month, leaving him with four dollars to spend
(00:21:55:00)
o At the time, Lenger’s wife made forty-eight dollars a week and they had a twentyfive dollar payment for the house, which they decided to keep; because of this,
she could only spend around a dollar a day to feed the family (00:22:08:00)

Deployment (00:23:04:00)
 From New Orleans, Lenger and the other men sailed the LST through the Gulf of Mexico
to Panama; there were rough seas on the journey and Lenger got seasick to the point that
he thought he was going to die (00:23:04:00)
o He eventually got over the seasickness and never got seasick again (00:23:21:00)
o During the journey, Lenger’s LST sailed with two other LSTs that had left New
Orleans at the same time (00:23:32:00)
o The LST docked in Panama for about three days before sailing through the
Panama Canal (00:23:39:00)
 One of the men on the LST got appendicitis, so they stopped in Mexico to drop him off
before continuing on to San Diego, California, where the ship picked up a lot more of its
supplies before taking off (00:23:48:00)

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The men on the LST had it good because they stopped at submarine bases
for their supplies and the submariners always received the best food of
anybody (00:24:06:00)
The standard LST is three hundred and twenty-eight feet long with a crew of one hundred
and four and eight or nine officers (00:24:36:00)
o Lenger’s LST was the flagship after it reached Honolulu, Hawaii, so they had to
take on six more officers to command the other LSTs (00:24:46:00)
o At the outbreak of the war, Winston Churchill wrote to President Roosevelt
saying the British had a lot of problems, one of which was that to invade France,
they would have to use the tiny Higgins boats, which would make their soldiers
cannon-fodder for the Germans (00:25:12:00)
 Churchill wrote that they needed a ship that could carry tanks and bigger
equipment so that when the British landed, they had heavier weapons to
fight back with (00:25:36:00)
 Roosevelt gave the letter to a Mr. Niedermeyer, who was in charge of the
ships, and when he looked at what the British had designed for four years,
none of which worked, Niedermeyer took the envelope the letter had come
on and drew the design for an LST (00:25:55:00)
 When they took the design back to Churchill, he said it was exactly what
they needed, only a little bit bigger so that they could carry in the larger
tanks (00:26:27:00)
o When they began construction of the LST fleet, the Navy stopped construction on
an aircraft carrier to get the steel needed (00:26:43:00)
o According to stories, when the first LST arrived in Hawaii, the personnel were
surprised by the bow doors of the ship; other ships had to sit at a dock to unload
while the LST could sail right on shore, open its doors, lower a ramp, and
personnel could drive equipment on and off (00:27:07:00)
Lenger’s LST did not carry any military supplies or equipment when it left San Diego;
they picked up a lot of that in Hawaii (00:27:56:00)
o One thing they picked up was an LCT, a hundred and thirty-eight foot craft used
to ferry smaller supplies from the cargo ships to shore (00:28:01:00)
The journey across the Pacific was long; it took about three weeks before the men saw
land anywhere (00:28:33:00)
o They had good weather and at noon everyday, the men took an azimuth of the sun
from just outside the wheelhouse; after getting the exact time and taking three
readings, the men went into a chartroom behind the wheelhouse and charted the
location of the ship (00:28:39:00)
 At night, just before sun-down and when the first star became visible, the
men took a reading with a sextant of the North Star and two other stars
and by using those measurements, they could also find out where they
were (00:29:13:00)
 On cloudy days, the men could not do this, so they read the logs which
told them how fast the ship was going and in what direction, so the men
could plot where the ship was and often, they came close (00:29:44:00)
o At this point, Lenger’s LST was sailing in a convoy with eight or ten other LSTs
and two destroyer escorts (00:30:14:00)

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The convoy did not encounter any Japanese submarines because it was a
little hard for the Japanese to attack them with a torpedo because the ship
did not have a large draft (00:30:38:00)
 The men worried about kamikazes more than anything else (00:31:01:00)
From Hawaii, the convoy crossed the Equator and went to Tulagi, then to the Russell
Islands, and finally to Guadalcanal (00:31:11:00)
o Along the way, the convoy was picking up different Marine units and their
supplies (00:31:25:00)
o When the ship crossed the Equator, the men woke up that morning and they only
got three beans on a plate to eat; when they got to the end of the line, someone
asked each man quietly if they would like an egg and if they said yes, then an egg
was smashed over their head (00:31:47:00)
 Another man had to carry a heavy chain around his neck all day and
another had to take a bedpan to all the men who needed to go to the
bathroom because using the “head” was forbidden (00:32:11:00)
 Eventually, each man had to climb a ladder at the back of the ship and
then crawl under fifty feet of canvas; when they tried to climb the ladder,
others used a salt water hose against the men, trying to knock them off and
when they went under the canvas, the men were hit with two by fours
before being hit with more water (00:32:33:00)
 Finally, the men went before “King Neptune”, were they had to get down
on their hands and knees and were shocked with electricity before being
told to kiss the deck (00:33:16:00)
 Lenger’s initiation on the LST was a little rougher than on some other
ships, such as an aircraft carrier, because those ships were not subject to
being on land (00:34:24:00)
 At night, the LST faced the possibility of being taken over by a
Japanese attack; the LST did not have the firepower to fight back
against an attack (00:34:36:00)
 Part of the initiation was to prepare the men for what would
happen if they were captured so they would not talk (00:34:58:00)
Lenger did not go ashore for long periods, but he did go ashore (00:35:31:00)
o One time, when they were not on duty, Lenger and another man went on the
beach and climbed in the hills; when they did so, the two men found a Japanese
machine gun with live ammunition (00:35:41:00)
 Lenger wanted to take it but they were was not allowed to, so the men left
it alone (00:36:00:00)
o When they stopped in the Russell Islands, Lenger also worked as a store keeper
and on their way back from getting supplies, the men spotted a river, so they took
a small boat from the LST and went up the river (00:36:24:00)
 On their way up the river, the men saw a village and they talked with the
villagers as much as they could; Lenger ended up getting a hand-carved
walking stick from the people living in the village (00:36:57:00)
After the LSTs was fully loaded, the convoy went to Ulithi to join with the rest of the
fleet and from Ulithi, the fleet attacked Okinawa (00:37:54:00)

�o By now, there were about one thousand ships sailing together towards Okinawa;
the aircraft carriers were about five miles behind the main force, the battleships
were in the next row, then the destroyers and LSTs designed to fire rockets, and
finally the LSTs carrying soldiers (00:38:21:00)
o The troop-carrying LSTs actually attacked the beach directly while all the other
ships provided the fire power (00:38:42:00)
Battle of Okinawa (00:38:51:00)
 At three or four o’clock on the morning of the invasion, the carriers sent in their aircraft
to start bombing the beaches (00:38:51:00)
 Lenger’s general quarters station on the ship was manning a 20 mm anti-aircraft gun
(00:39:21:00)
o There were twelve 20 mm anti-aircraft guns on the ship, five 40 mm anti-aircraft
guns, and one twenty-forty mm anti-aircraft gun; it took nearly forty percent of
the ship’s crew to man the anti-aircraft guns (00:39:28:00)
 The crewmen manning the 40 mm had to wear helmets and earphones and
they had to wait until they heard the command to fire; they never fired
unless told to do so (00:39:50:00)
 When enemy planes were a couple of miles away, then the 40 mm guns
received orders to fire and if they came within a mile, then the 20 mm
guns received permission to fire (00:40:07:00)
 Although the men had training, things were a lot different when they got
into action (00:40:26:00)
 There was a viewfinder on the top of each gun and in training, the
men followed a plane pulling a flag; as they followed the plane, the
gun moved too so that they could hit their target (00:40:34:00)
 After the first day, looking through the viewfinder was like looking
through a telescope; instead, Lenger followed the path of the tracer
shells in his gun (00:40:54:00)
 After the carrier aircraft attacked the beach, the battleships fired on the beach with their
sixteen-inch guns (00:41:44:00)
o The concussion from the guns was so amazing that it felt like their clothes would
be shaken right off of the men (00:41:54:00)
o Some of the battleships were only a thousand yards away from the LST when they
fired their guns (00:42:17:00)
 Once the battleships finished bombarding the beach, the LSTs went in (00:40:12:00)
o Lenger’s LST had to go to the beach to get rid of all the Marines and their
equipment; there were five hundred Marines on the ship plus two hundred and
fifty Seabees (00:42:45:00)
o On either side of the ship were metal pontoons and in order to get the LCT off the
top of the ship, they had to get ride of the pontoons; when they had unloaded the
pontoons, the Seabees used them to construct bridges out to other ships so that
trucks could be used to unload them (00:42:59:00)
o The Marines went right off the front of the boat and were armed with trucks and
tanks (00:43:39:00)

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o On about the third day, the pontoons were gone, so the men listed the ship eleven
degrees to starboard and once it was at that angle, someone cut the lines securing
the LCT to the deck and it slipped into the water (00:43:57:00)
 They used to LCT to ferry soldiers from the troop ships to the beach
(00:44:27:00)
When they first landed, the LST did not see much Japanese gun fire (00:44:42:00)
o On the first day, the battleships rounds were impacting the beach and four or five
times, the shore battery would fire back; the LST simple sat underneath as the
barrages flew overhead and eventually, the Marines took the guns (00:44:44:00)
However, on the first day, three planes attacked the LST and everyday, there would be
kamikazes attacking; Lenger had a ring-side seat on the 20 mm because sometimes the
planes were too far away and the men would watch dogfights between the Americans and
Japanese (00:45:16:00)
o The Japanese Zero was lighter than the American Corsair and on the first couple
of days, a Zero would dive with a Corsair behind it and when the Zero pulled up,
the Corsair could not, so it inevitably crashed into the water (00:45:55:00)
 After a couple of days, the American pilots figured out the tactic and to
not follow the Zero all the way (00:46:23:00)
o Many of the Japanese planes that the men saw were kamikazes and Lenger did see
ships hit by kamikaze attacks (00:46:40:00)
o Apart from some bullet holes, Lenger’s LST was never hit but they did have some
close calls (00:47:08:00)
 One time, Lenger received the order to commence firing and when he
pulled the trigger, a shell jammed in the breach; when he called back, a
seaman told him to take the barrel off and throw it over the side of ship
before the shell blew up (00:47:24:00)
 They eventually brought Lenger a new barrel for the gun so he
could continue firing (00:48:12:00)
 Once they had fired two magazines through the gun, the men had to
change the barrel because if it overheated, the barrel’s rifling would
degrade and the shell would not fly correctly (00:48:14:00)
 During one kamikaze attack, the plane was coming at the LST and the 40
mm received the orders to commence firing; because the LST was all
alone, the kamikaze focused on them (00:48:49:00)
 When Lenger received the order, he emptied one canister then
another into the kamikaze and when he was getting ready to crash
into the ship, the plane pulled up and missed the ship by about
twenty feet (00:49:11:00)
 The plane eventually crashed between the LST and a light cruiser
and blew up (00:50:16:00)
o There were kamikaze attacks every day to the point that the most sleep the men
got on any day during the first thirty days was three hours (00:50:30:00)
 It reached the point that Lenger and his assistant stayed at their gun and
took turns manning the gun and sleeping (00:50:40:00)
 The kamikazes also attacked at night (00:50:49:00)

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Sometimes when the kamikazes attacked at night, the men could
not see them, so the ships made a blanket of smoke so the
kamikazes could not see the ships (00:50:52:00)
Once they had landed the Marines, the LST went back and picked up eight hundred Army
soldiers and their equipment and landed them in a different location; they were moving
troops around based on where they were needed (00:51:31:00)
After thirty days, the LST pulled out of Okinawa because the men were exhausted and
returned to Ulithi (00:52:03:00)
o The men had five or six days in Ulithi while others checked the ship over because
they had run aground on some coral reefs; the ship lost some oil and the two
propellers were roughed up (00:52:22:00)
o They said there was too much damage to fix at Ulithi, so they had to sail the ship
to the Philippines, namely Subic Bay on Luzon, where they got the ship fixed up
and painted to make it look like a proper ship again (00:52:59:00)
From the Philippines, the LST took pilots and supplies from the P-38 aircraft to the island
of Ie Shima, a small island near Okinawa where the P-38s could provide escort to
bombers attacking Tokyo and other Japanese cities (00:53:25:00)
o The men arrived on the island about two weeks after well-known war
correspondent Ernie Pyle died and the men took pictures of the monument others
had erected in Pyle’s memory (00:54:35:00)
The attacks did not slow down as the fighting for Okinawa waned; the Japanese just kept
coming and coming (00:55:19:00)
o The Japanese had so many planes that after the war, the men found out they had
six thousand kamikazes waiting for when the fleet attacked Japan (00:55:23:00)
 Lenger knew that attack was coming because he eventually went back to
working with the charts (00:55:38:00)
After Okinawa, the LST went back to the Philippines (00:55:57:00)
The war ended while the LST was at Okinawa (00:56:06:00)
o The men heard guns firing at night and assumed the Japanese were attacking
again, so they rushed to their guns and the first thing Lenger heard when he put on
his headphones was the war was over (00:56:12:00)
o Lenger then told his assistant the war was over and he did not believe Lenger
(00:56:24:00)
Eventually, LST went back to the Philippines to pick up supplies and then took the
supplies to Japan (00:56:38:00)
o When the Japanese signed the official surrender agreement, the LST was sailing
from Manila to Japan; the men did not see the actual ceremony (00:56:51:00)
o The LST first landed in Yokohama, where they unload supplies for the Army and
afterwards, the men received a day liberty (00:57:04:00)
o After unload, the LST left Yokohama to pick up another load of supplies from the
Philippines; however, Lenger had accumulated enough points and he was able to
stay behind on the Philippines when the ship returned to Japan (00:57:18:00)
o When the men had their liberty leave from the ship, they found the Japanese to be
very curious; however, the men could not talk with the Japanese, so they just
looked around (00:57:43:00)

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They looked around and took some pictures but at that point, the men did
not even care if they got pictures (00:57:57:00)
When the LST was in New Orleans, Lenger asked the captain if it would be okay for him
to take a camera aboard; the captain said it was, so long as when Lenger developed the
film, the captain got to see them (00:58:17:00)
o Lenger not only took his regular camera, but also an 8 mm movie camera;
however, he only had a few rolls of film, so he had to be careful what he took
pictures of (00:58:38:00)
 When Lenger would ship items home, he stuck rolls of the film into the
box after it had been checked so his wife could see what was going on
(00:59:01:00)
o Whenever Lenger was at general quarters, he did not dare take the camera with
him; he was on the gun and that was it (00:59:49:00)
o When he was also on duty in the wheelhouse, Lenger was not able to film
anything and at Okinawa, he did not have time to take pictures and he did not dare
take any (01:00:01:00)
o He does have film of regular life aboard the LST, as well as the ceremony for
crossing the Equator and the launching of the LCT (01:00:47:00)
When Lenger was ready to get out of the Navy, there were so many men in the same
position as him on an island that the Navy did not have enough food to feed them all
(01:01:34:00)
o They eventually put him on a transport that took him to San Francisco, where he
stayed for four or five days before getting on a train to Chicago, where he was
discharged at Great Lakes (01:01:59:00)
o His wife came down to Great Lakes to pick him up once he was discharged
(01:02:23:00)

Post-Military Life (01:03:00:00)
 When he got home, Lenger tried to go back into business but things were rough because
rationing of supplies was still in place (01:03:00:00)
o Lenger called all the former people he worked with but none could give Lenger
what he needed, so he had to go find other suppliers (01:03:14:00)
o When he tried to purchase beef, the man said Lenger needed ration stamps, which
Lenger had given to the man who purchased his store when he went into the
service and he would have to pay under the table (01:03:46:00)
o He did this for awhile but he was not making any money, so Lenger gave the
business up (01:04:22:00)
o Instead, he went and worked for his brother’s business at $1.75 an hour;
eventually, Lenger got a job in sales at [Chester Locks] (01:04:39:00)
 He went all over Michigan for the job, but because people were on strike,
his checks were not delivered, so Lenger quit (01:05:02:00)
 Finally, Lenger ended up working for a business called Gardner-Denver, which made
pneumatic tools (01:05:14:00)
o Lenger originally did not know what most of tools did that he was selling, but he
received training and used “his dumbness” to help him sell more (01:05:29:00)

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The first time he went out, he went to a tool- and dye- shop, said he was
selling the product but he did not know how they worked and asked if the
workers in the shop could show him (01:05:38:00)
 A man showed Lenger how it worked and Lenger said he would leave the
machine overnight and come back the next morning; when he came back,
the man said he needed a dozen of the machines (01:05:54:00)
o Lenger stayed with the company for awhile but he ended up selling too many
tools (01:06:25:00)
 One time, Lenger’s sales manager pointed out that Lenger was trying to
get an order from a competitor; Lenger asked if he could continue because
he believed that he could get an order out of them (01:06:45:00)
 About a month later, Lenger got a large order from the competing
company because their equipment did not do as much work as
Lenger’s equipment did (01:07:12:00)
o It got to the point that they were sending Lenger all over the country because
other salesmen had sold products but the products kept breaking, so Lenger had to
go an fix them (01:07:40:00)
 The company wanted Lenger to move to Quincy, Illinois but he had one
child in high school, one in grade school, and two in college, so there was
no way he was going to move; he told them to ask him in a few years but
not at that moment (01:08:22:00)
 The company ended up taking away small parts of Lenger’s territory in an
effort to get him to move, so he gave them six months notice and went into
manufacturing the tools himself, but only for a few years (01:08:45:00)
Lenger’s manufacturing company originally made dye-grinders for fifty dollars and sold
them for around one hundred dollars; however, one day they saw there was a thirty-nine
dollar grinder for sale (01:09:13:00)
o Lenger and his wife went to Japan and talked with five companies and said he
wanted to just buy the rotor and cylinder, but a sales man said that would cost him
more than the tool itself (01:09:35:00)
o When Lenger asked what he meant, the man explained the Japanese government
subsidized the whole tool, not parts; when Lenger asked the price of the parts, he
found he could make them cheaper, so he figured he could sell them to the
Japanese companies (01:10:01:00)
 However, the man said that would not work either because when Lenger
would ship the parts, they charged a one hundred percent import duty,
which raised the price, whereas shipping to America only involved a four
percent duty (01:10:20:00)
o When Lenger got back home, he told his wife that they were going to sell the
company because they could not compete with the cheaper products (01:10:45:00)
o Lenger then went back to Gardner-Denver and because he knew the president of
the company; neither man drank, so when the company had parties, they sat
together (01:10:53:00)
 The president was not there that day, so Lenger told a man in the company
to start selling their tools at thirty-nine dollars and they could compete
with the Japanese tools; the man disregarded the information, saying the

�



company had been around too long to worry about the Japanese and four
years later, the company was out of business (01:11:15:00)
When he sold the manufacturing business, Lenger did not quite know what to do, but he
loved traveling, so he told his wife he was going to open at travel agency (01:11:56:00)
o They had gone to a travel agency a couple of times and had received bad
information; one time, Lenger and his wife went to Portugal and when Lenger
asked what kind of clothes he should take, the travel agent said it was February,
so they probably had snow (01:12:06:00)
 So, Lenger took heavy clothes and the temperature turned out to be in the
eighties (01:12:24:00)
 Another time, Lenger and his wife went to the Canary Island and Lenger
told the travel agent he wanted to go to Africa and the agent told him to
make the reservations once Lenger was on the island; when he tried to, the
people of the islands told Lenger the flight was full and reservations were
needed a month in advance (01:12:29:00)
o Lenger started the travel agency with his wife and they grew to be one of the
largest agencies in Grand Rapids before Lenger sold the business (01:13:03:00)
o Mission: India eventually wanted Lenger to work for them because for twentyfive years Lenger and his wife went to India every year to take pictures do fund
raising and programs (01:13:19:00)
Lenger learned a lot of respect in the Navy; no matter where he worked or what he did,
there was always someone over him (01:13:46:00)
o If Lenger was in charge of it, everyone graduating from high school would serve
for two years, if only to receive the regimentation and help get their feet on the
ground (01:14:15:00)
o Lenger and his comrades were very fortunate; they had canvas to sleep on and
good food to eat (01:14:46:00)
 Lenger loved the twelve to four watch at night because after the cooks
finished their work, they came up to the wheelhouse and brought a cup of
coffee and sometimes a fresh pie (01:14:56:00)

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                <text>Sid Lenger was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1918. After graduation from high school, Lenger went into business with his father, who ran several stores in the Grand Rapids. After several years, Lenger received his draft notice and following training in Chicago and Virginia, Lenger sailed on an LST down the Mississippi River, through the Gulf and Mexico and the Panama Canal and into the Pacific Ocean. Lenger's LST transported Marines as part of the massive invasion of Okinawa. Following the battle, the LST transported the supplies needed for P-38 fighter escorts and supplies to Japan before Lenger left the service. Included with the interview is a video Lenger made himself, combining official Navy training films and video he filmed himself while aboard the LST.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
World War II
Sid Lenger

Interview Length: (01:15:19:00)
Pre-enlistment / Training (00:01:37:00)
 Born in Wyoming, Michigan in 1918 above a shoe store (00:01:37:00)
o At the time, his family had a pot-belly stove in the living room and there was a
pump downstairs that they had to carry water from (00:01:57:00)
 His father worked at a meat market below their apartment (00:02:11:00)
o His father would go out on a horse and ring a bell as advertisement; when he later
got an automobile, his father did the same thing (00:02:15:00)
o Lenger’s father managed to keep his stores through the Great Depression and he
actually sold one of them (00:02:29:00)
 Lenger’s grandfather worked next door in the shoe store (00:02:38:00)
 At the time, they did not buy shoes in boxes; a person came in and
was fitted for a shoe, then the shoe was made and the person came
back later (00:02:48:00)
 Lenger’s grandfather wanted to retire, so another man bought the shoe
store and Lenger’s father built a new store for the man on the other side of
the road (00:02:57:00)
 Lenger’s grandfather already owned a building there, so they
moved that building down the street and built the new one for the
man to continue Lenger’s grandfather’s business (00:03:16:00)
 In 1927, Lenger’s family moved into good-sized house they had built; it was considered
modern for the time because there was an inside bathroom and electric lights instead of
the gas burning lights (00:03:30:00)
 Lenger’s family did not face many problems during the Depression because his father
still ran the meat market; his father’s main problem was collecting money (00:04:01:00)
o His father came out of the Depression very well, so he wrote a letter that was
published in the newspaper saying no one owed him money any more; he figured
that if God had blessed him that much, he was willing to forgive the people owing
him money (00:04:08:00)
 Lenger attending school through the twelfth grade at Lee High School (00:04:46:00)
o After school let out, Lenger worked for his father in a meat market; he rode his
bike to the market and worked there at night (00:04:55:00)
o He earned a dollar a week, which was pretty good; he was one of the richest kids
in the school (00:05:14:00)
o Following high school graduation, Lenger went into business with his father; his
father eventually turned a store over to Lenger, who ran it as a grocery / meat
market until he was drafted (00:05:22:00)
 Before Pearl Harbor, Lenger and his family followed the conflict in Europe; because they
had a radio, they would listen to the news (00:05:50:00)

�










o Lenger’s fathers always told him to watch out for Russians and Germans;
Germans shopped at the meat market and Lenger’s father always told him to
watch them because a slip of the tongue could cause problems (00:06:06:00)
When the attack on Pearl Harbor happened, Lenger’s wife was pregnant and on Dec. 7th,
he took her to the hospital and their first daughter was born (00:06:30:00)
o While they were there, they heard news over the radio that Pearl Harbor had been
bombed and Lenger’s wife became worried the Japanese were going to bomb the
hospital (00:06:45:00)
Lenger had registered for the draft when he was in high school (00:07:05:00)
o Lenger was simply waiting for his number to be called and when it was called, he
had to go to Detroit for a physical examination; at the examination, the doctors
found out that Lenger was warm, so he passed (00:07:25:00)
He received his draft notice three weeks before Memorial Day in 1944 (00:07:44:00)
o Following the examination, the military told Lenger he had three weeks to get rid
of everything he owned and report for training (00:08:22:00)
o After the three weeks, all the men had to go back to Detroit to report; they
reported the day before Memorial Day, so they sat in Detroit doing nothing while
everybody else was out celebrating (00:08:27:00)
From Detroit, the men shipped out to Great Lakes, Illinois, a training center
(00:08:39:00)
The man who interviewed Lenger in Detroit asked Lenger what branch he wanted, Army
or Navy; when Lenger said the Navy, the man said he was in the Army, but he still put
down the Navy on Lenger’s paperwork (00:08:48:00)
o The Navy needed sailors to work on the LST fleet; at that time, the LST was the
most important ship in the Navy because they allowed the Navy to land troops
instead of just moving them around (00:09:09:00)
Great Lakes was north of Chicago, on Lake Michigan and near Wisconsin (00:09:34:00)
o There was a large number of barracks on the base, with around fifty men to a
barracks building (00:09:51:00)
o Every morning, the men went out and exercised, namely calisthenics and
swimming, all of which was meant to build the men up physically (00:09:59:00)
o Lenger knew how to play the trumpet, so he ended up joining the drum and bugle
corps; on the 4th of July, they went to a parade in Racine, Wisconsin, which was
nice to be able to get out of the base for a while (00:10:09:00)
o The main order was that the men had better obey a command, with the last
command being obeyed first (00:10:31:00)
 On one side of the drill field was a large pile of big rocks and if a man did
not follow directions, then he had to carry the rocks from one side of the
field to the other (00:10:42:00)
o Lenger had no trouble adapting to military life; when he was a butcher, they did
not have any electric saws and they had to carry around the meat, so Lenger was
in pretty good shape when he went into the military (00:11:13:00)
 He ended up coming in second for the strength test (00:11:27:00)
o He was older than everyone else he trained with; Lenger was twenty-five and the
other men were eighteen and nineteen (00:11:36:00)

�







Lenger spent six weeks at Great Lakes and after the six weeks, he had one week at home
before having to report back to the Navy Pier in Chicago (00:11:46:00)
o The men spent a little more than a week at the Navy Pier before they shipped over
to Seneca, Illinois, where the LSTs were being built; from Seneca, each man
boarded his new LST (00:12:08:00)
o Chicago was good to the men; Lenger could get on the “L” trains for nothing and
take it to Benton Harbor, Michigan and then hitch-hike his way back home to
Grand Rapids (00:12:50:00)
Following Great Lakes, Lenger first went to the Navy base in Little Creek, Virginia, then
to the base at Little Neck and finally to Camp Bradford, also in Virginia (00:13:29:00)
o Each base had different training for the men, including: working with gasoline,
fire fighting, and at Camp Bradford, more gun training with the 20 mm, the 40
mm, and rifles (00:13:37:00)
 All the training was all standard for men getting ready to deploy on an
LST (00:14:24:00)
Lenger’s timing was just right to catch his LST; some of the other men who were before
him spent more time training in different areas, such as being the quartermaster on the
ship (00:14:33:00)
o They had three quartermasters on their ship, the maximum allowed limit, but
Lenger asked to be a quartermaster (00:14:50:00)
 When a man on the ship said there was not room for advancement and the
ship was full, Lenger said he did not mind it because he had not joined the
military for advancement (00:15:02:00)
 During the 1940s, Lenger’s father owned a twenty-five foot cruiser on
Lake Michigan and they would charter the boat; when they did so, Lenger
worked with the charters, a job he enjoyed (00:15:20:00)
o Lenger did not want to work in the engine room because of the heat; when he
worked as quartermaster, Lenger had to change the clocks whenever they went
into a new time zone and when he went into the engine room to change the
clocks, especially at the Equator, it got pretty hot (00:15:43:00)
o Being a quartermaster meant Lenger was partly in charge of the ship; in the
wheelhouse, there were three men: one was on the log, the second was on the
wheel, and the third was on the enunciator, which controlled the speed of the ship
(00:16:10:00)
 Lenger and the other quartermasters worked in four hour shifts, so they
would change positions (00:16:38:00)
 Also, every fifteen minutes, a quartermaster had to go to the back of the
ship and keep a log of the weather conditions; if anything happened,
information would be logged (00:16:53:00)
Chicago liked the sailors and Norfolk did not (00:17:28:00)
o The men went out only once while in Norfolk (00:17:36:00)
 They started walking and then decided to take a bus; however, the bus had
a sign that read “sailors and soldiers, thirty-five cents; civilians, ten cents”
(00:17:41:00)
 The men did not have that kind of money; Lenger’s paycheck was only
four dollars a month, so he did not have a lot of money (00:17:52:00)

�





The men hiked around for a little bit and it was not uncommon to see signs
in the lawn saying “sailors and dogs keep off the grass” (00:18:04:00)
 Lenger could see their point because there were so many young
kids fresh out of high school (00:18:14:00)
 They eventually stopped at a restaurant that had ten cents cups of coffee,
but thirty-five cent cups for soldiers (00:18:24:00)
Lenger was in Virginia for about three weeks to finish his training; once the training was
complete, the Navy shipped the men back to Navy Pier and then onto the LST in Seneca,
a suburb of Chicago, maybe forty or fifty miles outside of the city (00:18:46:00)
o The city was on the Illinois River, so the men took their LST, which had already
been launched by the time they got there, down the river to the Mississippi River,
which took them down to New Orleans (00:19:17:00)
o Once in New Orleans, they put the mast and anything with height onto the ship
because they could not fit under the bridges otherwise (00:19:33:00)
 Normally, ship went about eight or nine knots but going down the
Mississippi, they hit thirteen knots (00:19:41:00)
o Lenger only got off the LST once it reached New Orleans (00:20:05:00)
Lenger and his wife had their third child while he was sailing down the river to New
Orleans (00:20:15:00)
o After about a week in training, Lenger received word that he had another son, so
he received permission to take a plane home; he was home over Sunday to have
the baby baptized and then he had to leave on Monday (00:20:21:00)
o When Lenger went into the service, he sold his business; he and his wife had three
weeks following his physical examination to decided if they wanted to sell their
house, their car, or their business (00:21:22:00)
 They knew they were going to sell the business and that gave Lenger’s
wife money to survive while he was gone (00:21:41:00)
o Lenger also took out life insurance, although he did need to; the Army took ten
dollars of his pay every month, leaving him with four dollars to spend
(00:21:55:00)
o At the time, Lenger’s wife made forty-eight dollars a week and they had a twentyfive dollar payment for the house, which they decided to keep; because of this,
she could only spend around a dollar a day to feed the family (00:22:08:00)

Deployment (00:23:04:00)
 From New Orleans, Lenger and the other men sailed the LST through the Gulf of Mexico
to Panama; there were rough seas on the journey and Lenger got seasick to the point that
he thought he was going to die (00:23:04:00)
o He eventually got over the seasickness and never got seasick again (00:23:21:00)
o During the journey, Lenger’s LST sailed with two other LSTs that had left New
Orleans at the same time (00:23:32:00)
o The LST docked in Panama for about three days before sailing through the
Panama Canal (00:23:39:00)
 One of the men on the LST got appendicitis, so they stopped in Mexico to drop him off
before continuing on to San Diego, California, where the ship picked up a lot more of its
supplies before taking off (00:23:48:00)

�

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



The men on the LST had it good because they stopped at submarine bases
for their supplies and the submariners always received the best food of
anybody (00:24:06:00)
The standard LST is three hundred and twenty-eight feet long with a crew of one hundred
and four and eight or nine officers (00:24:36:00)
o Lenger’s LST was the flagship after it reached Honolulu, Hawaii, so they had to
take on six more officers to command the other LSTs (00:24:46:00)
o At the outbreak of the war, Winston Churchill wrote to President Roosevelt
saying the British had a lot of problems, one of which was that to invade France,
they would have to use the tiny Higgins boats, which would make their soldiers
cannon-fodder for the Germans (00:25:12:00)
 Churchill wrote that they needed a ship that could carry tanks and bigger
equipment so that when the British landed, they had heavier weapons to
fight back with (00:25:36:00)
 Roosevelt gave the letter to a Mr. Niedermeyer, who was in charge of the
ships, and when he looked at what the British had designed for four years,
none of which worked, Niedermeyer took the envelope the letter had come
on and drew the design for an LST (00:25:55:00)
 When they took the design back to Churchill, he said it was exactly what
they needed, only a little bit bigger so that they could carry in the larger
tanks (00:26:27:00)
o When they began construction of the LST fleet, the Navy stopped construction on
an aircraft carrier to get the steel needed (00:26:43:00)
o According to stories, when the first LST arrived in Hawaii, the personnel were
surprised by the bow doors of the ship; other ships had to sit at a dock to unload
while the LST could sail right on shore, open its doors, lower a ramp, and
personnel could drive equipment on and off (00:27:07:00)
Lenger’s LST did not carry any military supplies or equipment when it left San Diego;
they picked up a lot of that in Hawaii (00:27:56:00)
o One thing they picked up was an LCT, a hundred and thirty-eight foot craft used
to ferry smaller supplies from the cargo ships to shore (00:28:01:00)
The journey across the Pacific was long; it took about three weeks before the men saw
land anywhere (00:28:33:00)
o They had good weather and at noon everyday, the men took an azimuth of the sun
from just outside the wheelhouse; after getting the exact time and taking three
readings, the men went into a chartroom behind the wheelhouse and charted the
location of the ship (00:28:39:00)
 At night, just before sun-down and when the first star became visible, the
men took a reading with a sextant of the North Star and two other stars
and by using those measurements, they could also find out where they
were (00:29:13:00)
 On cloudy days, the men could not do this, so they read the logs which
told them how fast the ship was going and in what direction, so the men
could plot where the ship was and often, they came close (00:29:44:00)
o At this point, Lenger’s LST was sailing in a convoy with eight or ten other LSTs
and two destroyer escorts (00:30:14:00)

�







The convoy did not encounter any Japanese submarines because it was a
little hard for the Japanese to attack them with a torpedo because the ship
did not have a large draft (00:30:38:00)
 The men worried about kamikazes more than anything else (00:31:01:00)
From Hawaii, the convoy crossed the Equator and went to Tulagi, then to the Russell
Islands, and finally to Guadalcanal (00:31:11:00)
o Along the way, the convoy was picking up different Marine units and their
supplies (00:31:25:00)
o When the ship crossed the Equator, the men woke up that morning and they only
got three beans on a plate to eat; when they got to the end of the line, someone
asked each man quietly if they would like an egg and if they said yes, then an egg
was smashed over their head (00:31:47:00)
 Another man had to carry a heavy chain around his neck all day and
another had to take a bedpan to all the men who needed to go to the
bathroom because using the “head” was forbidden (00:32:11:00)
 Eventually, each man had to climb a ladder at the back of the ship and
then crawl under fifty feet of canvas; when they tried to climb the ladder,
others used a salt water hose against the men, trying to knock them off and
when they went under the canvas, the men were hit with two by fours
before being hit with more water (00:32:33:00)
 Finally, the men went before “King Neptune”, were they had to get down
on their hands and knees and were shocked with electricity before being
told to kiss the deck (00:33:16:00)
 Lenger’s initiation on the LST was a little rougher than on some other
ships, such as an aircraft carrier, because those ships were not subject to
being on land (00:34:24:00)
 At night, the LST faced the possibility of being taken over by a
Japanese attack; the LST did not have the firepower to fight back
against an attack (00:34:36:00)
 Part of the initiation was to prepare the men for what would
happen if they were captured so they would not talk (00:34:58:00)
Lenger did not go ashore for long periods, but he did go ashore (00:35:31:00)
o One time, when they were not on duty, Lenger and another man went on the
beach and climbed in the hills; when they did so, the two men found a Japanese
machine gun with live ammunition (00:35:41:00)
 Lenger wanted to take it but they were was not allowed to, so the men left
it alone (00:36:00:00)
o When they stopped in the Russell Islands, Lenger also worked as a store keeper
and on their way back from getting supplies, the men spotted a river, so they took
a small boat from the LST and went up the river (00:36:24:00)
 On their way up the river, the men saw a village and they talked with the
villagers as much as they could; Lenger ended up getting a hand-carved
walking stick from the people living in the village (00:36:57:00)
After the LSTs was fully loaded, the convoy went to Ulithi to join with the rest of the
fleet and from Ulithi, the fleet attacked Okinawa (00:37:54:00)

�o By now, there were about one thousand ships sailing together towards Okinawa;
the aircraft carriers were about five miles behind the main force, the battleships
were in the next row, then the destroyers and LSTs designed to fire rockets, and
finally the LSTs carrying soldiers (00:38:21:00)
o The troop-carrying LSTs actually attacked the beach directly while all the other
ships provided the fire power (00:38:42:00)
Battle of Okinawa (00:38:51:00)
 At three or four o’clock on the morning of the invasion, the carriers sent in their aircraft
to start bombing the beaches (00:38:51:00)
 Lenger’s general quarters station on the ship was manning a 20 mm anti-aircraft gun
(00:39:21:00)
o There were twelve 20 mm anti-aircraft guns on the ship, five 40 mm anti-aircraft
guns, and one twenty-forty mm anti-aircraft gun; it took nearly forty percent of
the ship’s crew to man the anti-aircraft guns (00:39:28:00)
 The crewmen manning the 40 mm had to wear helmets and earphones and
they had to wait until they heard the command to fire; they never fired
unless told to do so (00:39:50:00)
 When enemy planes were a couple of miles away, then the 40 mm guns
received orders to fire and if they came within a mile, then the 20 mm
guns received permission to fire (00:40:07:00)
 Although the men had training, things were a lot different when they got
into action (00:40:26:00)
 There was a viewfinder on the top of each gun and in training, the
men followed a plane pulling a flag; as they followed the plane, the
gun moved too so that they could hit their target (00:40:34:00)
 After the first day, looking through the viewfinder was like looking
through a telescope; instead, Lenger followed the path of the tracer
shells in his gun (00:40:54:00)
 After the carrier aircraft attacked the beach, the battleships fired on the beach with their
sixteen-inch guns (00:41:44:00)
o The concussion from the guns was so amazing that it felt like their clothes would
be shaken right off of the men (00:41:54:00)
o Some of the battleships were only a thousand yards away from the LST when they
fired their guns (00:42:17:00)
 Once the battleships finished bombarding the beach, the LSTs went in (00:40:12:00)
o Lenger’s LST had to go to the beach to get rid of all the Marines and their
equipment; there were five hundred Marines on the ship plus two hundred and
fifty Seabees (00:42:45:00)
o On either side of the ship were metal pontoons and in order to get the LCT off the
top of the ship, they had to get ride of the pontoons; when they had unloaded the
pontoons, the Seabees used them to construct bridges out to other ships so that
trucks could be used to unload them (00:42:59:00)
o The Marines went right off the front of the boat and were armed with trucks and
tanks (00:43:39:00)

�



o On about the third day, the pontoons were gone, so the men listed the ship eleven
degrees to starboard and once it was at that angle, someone cut the lines securing
the LCT to the deck and it slipped into the water (00:43:57:00)
 They used to LCT to ferry soldiers from the troop ships to the beach
(00:44:27:00)
When they first landed, the LST did not see much Japanese gun fire (00:44:42:00)
o On the first day, the battleships rounds were impacting the beach and four or five
times, the shore battery would fire back; the LST simple sat underneath as the
barrages flew overhead and eventually, the Marines took the guns (00:44:44:00)
However, on the first day, three planes attacked the LST and everyday, there would be
kamikazes attacking; Lenger had a ring-side seat on the 20 mm because sometimes the
planes were too far away and the men would watch dogfights between the Americans and
Japanese (00:45:16:00)
o The Japanese Zero was lighter than the American Corsair and on the first couple
of days, a Zero would dive with a Corsair behind it and when the Zero pulled up,
the Corsair could not, so it inevitably crashed into the water (00:45:55:00)
 After a couple of days, the American pilots figured out the tactic and to
not follow the Zero all the way (00:46:23:00)
o Many of the Japanese planes that the men saw were kamikazes and Lenger did see
ships hit by kamikaze attacks (00:46:40:00)
o Apart from some bullet holes, Lenger’s LST was never hit but they did have some
close calls (00:47:08:00)
 One time, Lenger received the order to commence firing and when he
pulled the trigger, a shell jammed in the breach; when he called back, a
seaman told him to take the barrel off and throw it over the side of ship
before the shell blew up (00:47:24:00)
 They eventually brought Lenger a new barrel for the gun so he
could continue firing (00:48:12:00)
 Once they had fired two magazines through the gun, the men had to
change the barrel because if it overheated, the barrel’s rifling would
degrade and the shell would not fly correctly (00:48:14:00)
 During one kamikaze attack, the plane was coming at the LST and the 40
mm received the orders to commence firing; because the LST was all
alone, the kamikaze focused on them (00:48:49:00)
 When Lenger received the order, he emptied one canister then
another into the kamikaze and when he was getting ready to crash
into the ship, the plane pulled up and missed the ship by about
twenty feet (00:49:11:00)
 The plane eventually crashed between the LST and a light cruiser
and blew up (00:50:16:00)
o There were kamikaze attacks every day to the point that the most sleep the men
got on any day during the first thirty days was three hours (00:50:30:00)
 It reached the point that Lenger and his assistant stayed at their gun and
took turns manning the gun and sleeping (00:50:40:00)
 The kamikazes also attacked at night (00:50:49:00)

�













Sometimes when the kamikazes attacked at night, the men could
not see them, so the ships made a blanket of smoke so the
kamikazes could not see the ships (00:50:52:00)
Once they had landed the Marines, the LST went back and picked up eight hundred Army
soldiers and their equipment and landed them in a different location; they were moving
troops around based on where they were needed (00:51:31:00)
After thirty days, the LST pulled out of Okinawa because the men were exhausted and
returned to Ulithi (00:52:03:00)
o The men had five or six days in Ulithi while others checked the ship over because
they had run aground on some coral reefs; the ship lost some oil and the two
propellers were roughed up (00:52:22:00)
o They said there was too much damage to fix at Ulithi, so they had to sail the ship
to the Philippines, namely Subic Bay on Luzon, where they got the ship fixed up
and painted to make it look like a proper ship again (00:52:59:00)
From the Philippines, the LST took pilots and supplies from the P-38 aircraft to the island
of Ie Shima, a small island near Okinawa where the P-38s could provide escort to
bombers attacking Tokyo and other Japanese cities (00:53:25:00)
o The men arrived on the island about two weeks after well-known war
correspondent Ernie Pyle died and the men took pictures of the monument others
had erected in Pyle’s memory (00:54:35:00)
The attacks did not slow down as the fighting for Okinawa waned; the Japanese just kept
coming and coming (00:55:19:00)
o The Japanese had so many planes that after the war, the men found out they had
six thousand kamikazes waiting for when the fleet attacked Japan (00:55:23:00)
 Lenger knew that attack was coming because he eventually went back to
working with the charts (00:55:38:00)
After Okinawa, the LST went back to the Philippines (00:55:57:00)
The war ended while the LST was at Okinawa (00:56:06:00)
o The men heard guns firing at night and assumed the Japanese were attacking
again, so they rushed to their guns and the first thing Lenger heard when he put on
his headphones was the war was over (00:56:12:00)
o Lenger then told his assistant the war was over and he did not believe Lenger
(00:56:24:00)
Eventually, LST went back to the Philippines to pick up supplies and then took the
supplies to Japan (00:56:38:00)
o When the Japanese signed the official surrender agreement, the LST was sailing
from Manila to Japan; the men did not see the actual ceremony (00:56:51:00)
o The LST first landed in Yokohama, where they unload supplies for the Army and
afterwards, the men received a day liberty (00:57:04:00)
o After unload, the LST left Yokohama to pick up another load of supplies from the
Philippines; however, Lenger had accumulated enough points and he was able to
stay behind on the Philippines when the ship returned to Japan (00:57:18:00)
o When the men had their liberty leave from the ship, they found the Japanese to be
very curious; however, the men could not talk with the Japanese, so they just
looked around (00:57:43:00)

�





They looked around and took some pictures but at that point, the men did
not even care if they got pictures (00:57:57:00)
When the LST was in New Orleans, Lenger asked the captain if it would be okay for him
to take a camera aboard; the captain said it was, so long as when Lenger developed the
film, the captain got to see them (00:58:17:00)
o Lenger not only took his regular camera, but also an 8 mm movie camera;
however, he only had a few rolls of film, so he had to be careful what he took
pictures of (00:58:38:00)
 When Lenger would ship items home, he stuck rolls of the film into the
box after it had been checked so his wife could see what was going on
(00:59:01:00)
o Whenever Lenger was at general quarters, he did not dare take the camera with
him; he was on the gun and that was it (00:59:49:00)
o When he was also on duty in the wheelhouse, Lenger was not able to film
anything and at Okinawa, he did not have time to take pictures and he did not dare
take any (01:00:01:00)
o He does have film of regular life aboard the LST, as well as the ceremony for
crossing the Equator and the launching of the LCT (01:00:47:00)
When Lenger was ready to get out of the Navy, there were so many men in the same
position as him on an island that the Navy did not have enough food to feed them all
(01:01:34:00)
o They eventually put him on a transport that took him to San Francisco, where he
stayed for four or five days before getting on a train to Chicago, where he was
discharged at Great Lakes (01:01:59:00)
o His wife came down to Great Lakes to pick him up once he was discharged
(01:02:23:00)

Post-Military Life (01:03:00:00)
 When he got home, Lenger tried to go back into business but things were rough because
rationing of supplies was still in place (01:03:00:00)
o Lenger called all the former people he worked with but none could give Lenger
what he needed, so he had to go find other suppliers (01:03:14:00)
o When he tried to purchase beef, the man said Lenger needed ration stamps, which
Lenger had given to the man who purchased his store when he went into the
service and he would have to pay under the table (01:03:46:00)
o He did this for awhile but he was not making any money, so Lenger gave the
business up (01:04:22:00)
o Instead, he went and worked for his brother’s business at $1.75 an hour;
eventually, Lenger got a job in sales at [Chester Locks] (01:04:39:00)
 He went all over Michigan for the job, but because people were on strike,
his checks were not delivered, so Lenger quit (01:05:02:00)
 Finally, Lenger ended up working for a business called Gardner-Denver, which made
pneumatic tools (01:05:14:00)
o Lenger originally did not know what most of tools did that he was selling, but he
received training and used “his dumbness” to help him sell more (01:05:29:00)

�



The first time he went out, he went to a tool- and dye- shop, said he was
selling the product but he did not know how they worked and asked if the
workers in the shop could show him (01:05:38:00)
 A man showed Lenger how it worked and Lenger said he would leave the
machine overnight and come back the next morning; when he came back,
the man said he needed a dozen of the machines (01:05:54:00)
o Lenger stayed with the company for awhile but he ended up selling too many
tools (01:06:25:00)
 One time, Lenger’s sales manager pointed out that Lenger was trying to
get an order from a competitor; Lenger asked if he could continue because
he believed that he could get an order out of them (01:06:45:00)
 About a month later, Lenger got a large order from the competing
company because their equipment did not do as much work as
Lenger’s equipment did (01:07:12:00)
o It got to the point that they were sending Lenger all over the country because
other salesmen had sold products but the products kept breaking, so Lenger had to
go an fix them (01:07:40:00)
 The company wanted Lenger to move to Quincy, Illinois but he had one
child in high school, one in grade school, and two in college, so there was
no way he was going to move; he told them to ask him in a few years but
not at that moment (01:08:22:00)
 The company ended up taking away small parts of Lenger’s territory in an
effort to get him to move, so he gave them six months notice and went into
manufacturing the tools himself, but only for a few years (01:08:45:00)
Lenger’s manufacturing company originally made dye-grinders for fifty dollars and sold
them for around one hundred dollars; however, one day they saw there was a thirty-nine
dollar grinder for sale (01:09:13:00)
o Lenger and his wife went to Japan and talked with five companies and said he
wanted to just buy the rotor and cylinder, but a sales man said that would cost him
more than the tool itself (01:09:35:00)
o When Lenger asked what he meant, the man explained the Japanese government
subsidized the whole tool, not parts; when Lenger asked the price of the parts, he
found he could make them cheaper, so he figured he could sell them to the
Japanese companies (01:10:01:00)
 However, the man said that would not work either because when Lenger
would ship the parts, they charged a one hundred percent import duty,
which raised the price, whereas shipping to America only involved a four
percent duty (01:10:20:00)
o When Lenger got back home, he told his wife that they were going to sell the
company because they could not compete with the cheaper products (01:10:45:00)
o Lenger then went back to Gardner-Denver and because he knew the president of
the company; neither man drank, so when the company had parties, they sat
together (01:10:53:00)
 The president was not there that day, so Lenger told a man in the company
to start selling their tools at thirty-nine dollars and they could compete
with the Japanese tools; the man disregarded the information, saying the

�



company had been around too long to worry about the Japanese and four
years later, the company was out of business (01:11:15:00)
When he sold the manufacturing business, Lenger did not quite know what to do, but he
loved traveling, so he told his wife he was going to open at travel agency (01:11:56:00)
o They had gone to a travel agency a couple of times and had received bad
information; one time, Lenger and his wife went to Portugal and when Lenger
asked what kind of clothes he should take, the travel agent said it was February,
so they probably had snow (01:12:06:00)
 So, Lenger took heavy clothes and the temperature turned out to be in the
eighties (01:12:24:00)
 Another time, Lenger and his wife went to the Canary Island and Lenger
told the travel agent he wanted to go to Africa and the agent told him to
make the reservations once Lenger was on the island; when he tried to, the
people of the islands told Lenger the flight was full and reservations were
needed a month in advance (01:12:29:00)
o Lenger started the travel agency with his wife and they grew to be one of the
largest agencies in Grand Rapids before Lenger sold the business (01:13:03:00)
o Mission: India eventually wanted Lenger to work for them because for twentyfive years Lenger and his wife went to India every year to take pictures do fund
raising and programs (01:13:19:00)
Lenger learned a lot of respect in the Navy; no matter where he worked or what he did,
there was always someone over him (01:13:46:00)
o If Lenger was in charge of it, everyone graduating from high school would serve
for two years, if only to receive the regimentation and help get their feet on the
ground (01:14:15:00)
o Lenger and his comrades were very fortunate; they had canvas to sleep on and
good food to eat (01:14:46:00)
 Lenger loved the twelve to four watch at night because after the cooks
finished their work, they came up to the wheelhouse and brought a cup of
coffee and sometimes a fresh pie (01:14:56:00)

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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. History Department</text>
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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Sid Linger was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1918. After graduation from high school, Lenger went into business with his father, who ran several stores in the Grand Rapids. He was drafted into the Navy in 1944, and was assigned as a quartermaster on a new LST that was being built at Seneca, Illinois. He sailed on the LST down the Mississippi River, through the Gulf and Mexico and the Panama Canal and into the Pacific Ocean. Lenger's LST transported Marines as part of the massive invasion of Okinawa, where they witnessed many kamikaze attacks. Following the battle, the LST transported the supplies needed for P-38 fighter escorts and supplies to Japan before Lenger left the service. Included with the interview is a video Lenger made himself, combining official Navy training films and video he filmed himself while aboard the LST (see 2 of 2).</text>
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                    <text>Young	&#13;   L ords	&#13;  
In	&#13;  Lincoln	&#13;  Park	&#13;  

Interviewee:	&#13;  Lenny	&#13;  Foster	&#13;  
Interviewers:	&#13;  Jose	&#13;  Jimenez	&#13;  
Location:	&#13;  Grand	&#13;  Valley	&#13;  State	&#13;  University	&#13;  Special	&#13;  Collections	&#13;  
Date:	&#13;  10/4/2016	&#13;  
Runtime:	&#13;  01:13:41	&#13;  
	&#13;  

	&#13;  
	&#13;  

Biography	&#13;  and	&#13;  Description	&#13;  

Oral	&#13;  history	&#13;  of	&#13;  Lenny	&#13;  Foster,	&#13;  interviewed	&#13;  by	&#13;  Jose	&#13;  “Cha-­‐Cha”	&#13;  Jimenez	&#13;  on	&#13;  October	&#13;  04,	&#13;  2016	&#13;  about	&#13;  the	&#13;  
Young	&#13;  Lords	&#13;  in	&#13;  Lincoln	&#13;  Park.	&#13;  
Lenny	&#13;  Foster	&#13;  grew	&#13;  up	&#13;  speaking	&#13;  his	&#13;  native	&#13;  Navajo	&#13;  language	&#13;  with	&#13;  his	&#13;  parents	&#13;  as	&#13;  a	&#13;  sheep	&#13;  herder	&#13;  on	&#13;  a	&#13;  
farm	&#13;  in	&#13;  the	&#13;  reservation.	&#13;  During	&#13;  World	&#13;  War	&#13;  II,	&#13;  Navajo	&#13;  US	&#13;  veterans	&#13;  were	&#13;  called	&#13;  code	&#13;  talkers	&#13;  because	&#13;  
they	&#13;  could	&#13;  infiltrate	&#13;  the	&#13;  Japanese	&#13;  and	&#13;  speak	&#13;  in	&#13;  their	&#13;  native	&#13;  tongue	&#13;  without	&#13;  being	&#13;  detected.	&#13;  His	&#13;  dad	&#13;  
was	&#13;  also	&#13;  a	&#13;  U.S.	&#13;  Marine	&#13;  radio	&#13;  operator.	&#13;  When	&#13;  Lenny	&#13;  attended	&#13;  Arizona	&#13;  Western	&#13;  College	&#13;  he	&#13;  joined	&#13;  
their	&#13;  baseball	&#13;  team	&#13;  and	&#13;  played	&#13;  well.	&#13;  He	&#13;  said	&#13;  then	&#13;  is	&#13;  when,	&#13;  “he	&#13;  realized	&#13;  he	&#13;  did	&#13;  not	&#13;  have	&#13;  any	&#13;  money.”	&#13;  
In	&#13;  1981,	&#13;  he	&#13;  attended	&#13;  graduate	&#13;  school	&#13;  at	&#13;  Arizona	&#13;  State	&#13;  University.	&#13;  He	&#13;  was	&#13;  asked	&#13;  to	&#13;  meet	&#13;  with	&#13;  Native	&#13;  
Americans	&#13;  at	&#13;  a	&#13;  prison	&#13;  because	&#13;  he	&#13;  is	&#13;  a	&#13;  Sun	&#13;  Dancer	&#13;  or	&#13;  spiritual	&#13;  leader.	&#13;  “Preach	&#13;  and	&#13;  Teach”	&#13;  he	&#13;  figured	&#13;  
out	&#13;  is	&#13;  what	&#13;  he	&#13;  should	&#13;  do.	&#13;  For	&#13;  over	&#13;  30	&#13;  years	&#13;  he	&#13;  has	&#13;  traveled	&#13;  inside	&#13;  the	&#13;  prisons	&#13;  to	&#13;  teach	&#13;  traditional	&#13;  

�practices	&#13;  such	&#13;  as	&#13;  the	&#13;  passing	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  eagle	&#13;  feather	&#13;  in	&#13;  the	&#13;  Talking	&#13;  Circle,”	&#13;  smoking	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  sacred	&#13;  
Tobacco	&#13;  Pipe	&#13;  and	&#13;  the	&#13;  Sweat	&#13;  Lodge	&#13;  	&#13;  Ceremony.	&#13;  For	&#13;  ten	&#13;  years	&#13;  he	&#13;  was	&#13;  director	&#13;  of	&#13;  a	&#13;  community	&#13;  center	&#13;  
and	&#13;  has	&#13;  lobbied	&#13;  senators	&#13;  and	&#13;  representatives	&#13;  creating	&#13;  legislation	&#13;  and	&#13;  implementing	&#13;  policies.	&#13;  He	&#13;  
saw	&#13;  his	&#13;  job	&#13;  as	&#13;  “creating	&#13;  awareness”	&#13;  among	&#13;  prison	&#13;  officials	&#13;  and	&#13;  inmates	&#13;  and	&#13;  states	&#13;  that	&#13;  99	&#13;  %	&#13;  of	&#13;  
Native	&#13;  American	&#13;  prisoners	&#13;  suffer	&#13;  from	&#13;  alcoholism	&#13;  or	&#13;  substance	&#13;  abuse.	&#13;  Therefore	&#13;  traditional	&#13;  healing	&#13;  
is	&#13;  not	&#13;  only	&#13;  their	&#13;  culture	&#13;  but	&#13;  also	&#13;  has	&#13;  healing	&#13;  powers.	&#13;  It	&#13;  is	&#13;  the	&#13;  same	&#13;  as	&#13;  any	&#13;  other	&#13;  religion	&#13;  form	&#13;  other	&#13;  
countries.	&#13;  Personally,	&#13;  he	&#13;  feels	&#13;  that	&#13;  Native	&#13;  Americans	&#13;  in	&#13;  prison	&#13;  are	&#13;  starving	&#13;  to	&#13;  learn	&#13;  their	&#13;  true	&#13;  
history	&#13;  and	&#13;  traditions	&#13;  that	&#13;  have	&#13;  been	&#13;  denied	&#13;  them	&#13;  in	&#13;  the	&#13;  public	&#13;  schools	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  reservations.	&#13;  There	&#13;  
he	&#13;  said,	&#13;  “they	&#13;  teach	&#13;  only	&#13;  about	&#13;  Dick	&#13;  and	&#13;  Jane	&#13;  and	&#13;  Christopher	&#13;  Columbus	&#13;  discovering	&#13;  our	&#13;  land.”	&#13;  He	&#13;  
has	&#13;  worked	&#13;  on	&#13;  law	&#13;  suits	&#13;  to	&#13;  protect	&#13;  Native	&#13;  American	&#13;  First	&#13;  Amendment	&#13;  rights.	&#13;  
On	&#13;  a	&#13;  trip	&#13;  to	&#13;  Denver,	&#13;  Colorado	&#13;  he	&#13;  met	&#13;  the	&#13;  leaders	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  American	&#13;  Indian	&#13;  Movement	&#13;  (A.I.M.),	&#13;  which	&#13;  
were	&#13;  part	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  Rainbow	&#13;  Coalition	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  Black	&#13;  Panthers,	&#13;  Young	&#13;  Patriots	&#13;  and	&#13;  Young	&#13;  Lords.	&#13;  In	&#13;  1973,	&#13;  
he	&#13;  and	&#13;  others	&#13;  endured	&#13;  71	&#13;  days	&#13;  of	&#13;  daily	&#13;  heavy	&#13;  gunfire	&#13;  from	&#13;  both	&#13;  sides	&#13;  with	&#13;  federal	&#13;  officers	&#13;  at	&#13;  
Wounded	&#13;  Knee.	&#13;  	&#13;  For	&#13;  over	&#13;  40	&#13;  years,	&#13;  he	&#13;  has	&#13;  been	&#13;  Leonard	&#13;  Peltier’s	&#13;  spiritual	&#13;  leader	&#13;  and	&#13;  has	&#13;  traveled	&#13;  
to	&#13;  France	&#13;  to	&#13;  receive	&#13;  a	&#13;  human	&#13;  rights	&#13;  award	&#13;  from	&#13;  Frantz	&#13;  Fanon’s	&#13;  daughter’s	&#13;  foundation,	&#13;  on	&#13;  behalf	&#13;  of	&#13;  
Leonard	&#13;  Peltier.	&#13;  Today	&#13;  his	&#13;  daughter	&#13;  and	&#13;  grandson	&#13;  are	&#13;  at	&#13;  Standing	&#13;  Rock	&#13;  supporting	&#13;  that	&#13;  occupation.	&#13;  

He	&#13;  was	&#13;  also	&#13;  a	&#13;  good	&#13;  friend	&#13;  of	&#13;  Richard	&#13;  Oakes	&#13;  who	&#13;  he	&#13;  said	&#13;  was	&#13;  a	&#13;  Mohawk	&#13;  from	&#13;  the	&#13;  east	&#13;  coast,	&#13;  
attending	&#13;  school	&#13;  at	&#13;  San	&#13;  Francisco	&#13;  State.	&#13;  Richard	&#13;  organized	&#13;  students	&#13;  and	&#13;  members	&#13;  of	&#13;  various	&#13;  tribes	&#13;  
to	&#13;  take	&#13;  over	&#13;  an	&#13;  abandoned	&#13;  Alcatraz	&#13;  Island	&#13;  on	&#13;  November	&#13;  20,	&#13;  1969.	&#13;  According	&#13;  to	&#13;  treaties	&#13;  any	&#13;  
abandoned	&#13;  federal	&#13;  land	&#13;  was	&#13;  to	&#13;  revert	&#13;  back	&#13;  to	&#13;  Native	&#13;  Americans.	&#13;  He	&#13;  said	&#13;  that	&#13;  Richard	&#13;  Oake’s	&#13;  
daughter	&#13;  had	&#13;  been	&#13;  killed	&#13;  during	&#13;  the	&#13;  occupation.	&#13;  Cha-­‐Cha	&#13;  Jimenez	&#13;  explained	&#13;  that	&#13;  it	&#13;  occurred	&#13;  on	&#13;  the	&#13;  
transport	&#13;  barge	&#13;  on	&#13;  Thanksgiving	&#13;  Day	&#13;  when	&#13;  someone	&#13;  bumped	&#13;  the	&#13;  mother	&#13;  and	&#13;  the	&#13;  baby	&#13;  fell	&#13;  into	&#13;  the	&#13;  
ocean.	&#13;  He	&#13;  and	&#13;  another	&#13;  Young	&#13;  Lord,	&#13;  Cano	&#13;  Miller	&#13;  and	&#13;  others	&#13;  were	&#13;  special	&#13;  guests	&#13;  during	&#13;  a	&#13;  large	&#13;  
Thanksgiving	&#13;  event	&#13;  on	&#13;  the	&#13;  recently	&#13;  Alcatraz	&#13;  Take-­‐over.	&#13;  The	&#13;  Young	&#13;  Lords	&#13;  and	&#13;  Cha	&#13;  –	&#13;  Cha	&#13;  were	&#13;  on	&#13;  a	&#13;  
speaking	&#13;  tour	&#13;  in	&#13;  California	&#13;  to	&#13;  raise	&#13;  funds	&#13;  for	&#13;  the	&#13;  organization.	&#13;  Several	&#13;  witnessed	&#13;  the	&#13;  drowning	&#13;  and	&#13;  
several	&#13;  dived	&#13;  into	&#13;  the	&#13;  ocean	&#13;  but	&#13;  could	&#13;  not	&#13;  recover	&#13;  the	&#13;  body.	&#13;  Lenny	&#13;  said	&#13;  that	&#13;  Richard	&#13;  Oakes	&#13;  left	&#13;  the	&#13;  
occupation	&#13;  feeling	&#13;  this	&#13;  as	&#13;  a	&#13;  bad	&#13;  omen,	&#13;  only	&#13;  to	&#13;  be	&#13;  killed	&#13;  later	&#13;  by	&#13;  “a	&#13;  forest	&#13;  ranger.”	&#13;  	&#13;  
	&#13;  
	&#13;  
	&#13;  

	&#13;  	&#13;  
	&#13;  

�Transcript
LENNY FOSTER:

My name is Lenny Foster. I was born in Ganado, Arizona, on the

Navajo reservation. I’m 68 years old. I’m a grandfather.
JOSE JIMENEZ:

Okay, okay, let’s try that.

(break in audio)
JJ:

Start with the same thing. Can you tell me your name, where you were born?

LF:

Sure. My name is Lenny Foster. I’m a Diné Navajo from Wind Rock, Arizona. I
was born in Ganado, Arizona, on the Navajo reservation. I’m 68 years old. And
I’m a grandfather. I have three grandsons and a granddaughter. And my work
involves being a spiritual leader, a spiritual advisor for Navajo and other Native
American inmates in state prisons, federal penitentiaries in the Western United
States, primarily in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah. [00:01:00] And I’ve
been doing this work for 35 years. I started conducting sweat lodge ceremonies,
pipe ceremonies, Talking Circle in 1981.

JJ:

Can you tell us what the Talking Circle and those things done for, you know, for
an audience that doesn’t understand it?

LF:

The Talking Circle is a spiritual gathering where we all come together, maybe 30,
40 inmates at a state prison or federal penitentiary, we make a circle around the
fireplace, and I open up with a prayer, and we’ll pass the eagle feather around,
and everyone has an opportunity to express themselves. And it’s very healing
for the inmate. It’s a form of wellness. And these are concepts we utilize in the
prisons for Native Americans. The pipe ceremony, we use tobacco and a pipe.
We pray and sing, and I pack [00:02:00] the Chanunpa with tobacco, [mountain?]

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�tobacco, and again, make a prayer, and then I light it, and I pass it around. It
goes all the way around. Everybody has an opportunity to smoke it. Indian
tobacco is one of the most profound ceremonies for Native Americans in the
prison system. That’s something that we utilize to make the connection to the
Great Spirit, in tobacco. And the sweat lodge ceremony is an ancient ceremonial
practice of cleansing and purification. It’s very medicinal. It’s very healing. And
it’s something that we fought for in the prison system since the 1970s [00:03:00]
and it’s still practiced today.
JJ:

What did you fight for it(inaudible)?

LF:

Religious rights, cultural rights, spiritual rights is part of a First Amendment,
freedom of worship and the prison officials, the wardens, the correctional
officials, the chaplains, are not aware of that. And they think that just because a
person is taken out of society, incarcerated, that he loses his right to pray, to
meditate. And for Native Americans, it’s very important. And so, we had to file
grievances, and eventually file lawsuits, and had to go into the state and federal
courts, [00:04:00] and that’s when I said we had to fight for it. That’s the process
of a lawsuit. You challenge the rules and regulations that prohibits freedom of
worship in the prison setting. And we won the cases. We won the cases. So,
that’s an activity that’s still practiced today. It would be hard for anyone that
doesn’t understand or practice Native American spirituality that it’s something
that we have to challenge, the policies, the rules, the regulations. So, it results in
litigation. And we have attorneys that are well versed in that type of litigation.
So, that’s something that we had to file complaints and grievances to allow us to

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�have the ceremonies. [00:05:00] You know, when you look at the population of
the Native American inmates, a majority are traditional, meaning that they
practice the old ways of worship, using the fire, the rock, the lava rocks, the fire,
and having a spiritual leader like myself come in and teach. In the ordinary
setting of this type of practices, religious practices, you have the Jewish, you
have the Christians, you have the Islamic. But their ways are different from
Native Americans. So, the prison officials understand the use of the Bible,
rosary, holy water. And the Jewish, they have their ways. And Islamic,
[00:06:00] they also have their ways. It seems that the prison officials
understand these ways, but when it comes to Native American practices, it’s a
whole different ball game. And ignorance should not be an excuse for denying a
person’s rights to pray. So, that’s something that is misunderstood. So, we’ve
had to rely on litigation. We’ve had to rely on legislation, taking these concepts,
having a state legislature, federal legislature, write a legislative language and
introduce it into the state capitol or federal capitol. So, that’s an exercise or
process in legislation. Then the third avenue that’s available for us to obtain
these rights is just to negotiate. So, you have litigation, you’ve [00:07:00] got
legislation, and negotiation is just requesting the prison officials to sit down with
us and discuss these practices, and put everything on the table and hopefully
convince the warden or the chaplains that this can be done without affecting the
security. Because security is always a concern that the officials use that they
don’t understand the fire to heat up the rocks. They don’t understand the sweat
lodge where we enter an enclosed area that’s built with willow saplings and

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�covered with blankets and canvas, and we’re stripped down and enter the sweat
lodge, sit in a circle [00:08:00] inside, and then bring in the hot lava rocks, and
then you bring in water and the sage and cedar and make offering, and use the
sage to dip in the bucket of water. So, these practices are, I call it ancient, old,
ceremonial practices, which they are, and it’s up to us, the burden is on us as
Native Americans to teach these officials. So, that’s a process for the last 30
years, 30 years that we’ve been doing this. And it’s a constant. It’s a constant.
And I’ll use an example. United States Penitentiary, Leavenworth, Lewisburg,
Atlanta, Allenwood, Tucson, some of the chaplains are new, and they’re very
suspicious of our practices, [00:09:00] and they think we’re going to be using
contraband. They don’t know our feelings towards tobacco. It’s very sacred.
You don’t play with the pipe or tobacco, or use of sage or cedar. And yet they
will say these herbs are not approved. And we have to create an awareness that
these herbs are necessary, vital for use in the ceremony. Sage, cedar. That
grows wild on the country. You don’t buy the stores, or it’s not manufactured.
We go off and harvest it. It’s wild. So, these are examples of what we have to
engage. The burden is on us as Native Americans, and [00:10:00] spiritual
leaders, spiritual advisors, to educate the wardens, educate the chaplains. And
it’s a process where denial of our rights initially started out as civil rights, but it
progressed in human rights, religious rights. So, we’re at that level now. And
they make it so by being ignorant. It’s a racist practice, it’s discrimination. And
we’ve had to testify in Congress to create these laws that gives equal protection
to our practices. Same as the Christians. They enjoy their ceremonies. They

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�don’t have to explain why they should use a Bible. Why is it that we have to
explain our use of the pipe and tobacco, [00:11:00] the sweat lodge? Yet they’re
entitled to their rosaries, their instruments, or items for use in their services.
Same way with the Jewish people. They have certain rights that they enjoy.
They don’t seem to have to explain everything. Same way, the more recent is
the Islamic and the Muslim practices. They had to file complaints to be able to
use their rugs, have their caps, and then pray every Friday. So, it made it much
easier for them, because there was a certain amount of awareness, a certain
amount of understanding towards their practices. But why is it with Native
Americans, we’re viewed as undermining the security? [00:12:00] Or that we’re
attempting to undermine the security concerns that the prisons have? And for
the longest time, we weren’t allowed to use the sweat lodge. We weren’t allowed
to use the pipe. We weren’t allowed to have our spiritual leaders come into the
facilities and teach. And it was only lawsuits that were brought on by the Native
American Rights Fund. Walter Echo-Hawk is a premier Indian rights attorney,
and he litigated many of these cases in the late ’70s, early ’80s. I helped him
with these practices. And we sat down and wrote legislative language and
incorporated that into bills that were introduced. I, myself, introduced bills that
would [00:13:00] protect Native American religious practices in the state prison
system. And we realized that it has to go to the highest level, which is the
federal, the United States Congress. So, we had to write languages that would
be acceptable using the sweat lodge. I keep going back to the sweat lodge and
the pipe ceremonies because those are the major, or the ceremonies that are

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�requested by inmates. And the reason I want to share this with this archives, is
that these practices are ancient, and it’s basic. When you really look at it, it’s
basic. It’s very elementary. And the burden is on us, [00:14:00] the Indian
community, to educate non-Indians, because they don’t practice these ways. But
for us, it’s necessary for the healing, for the wellness of our people while they’re
incarcerated. And unless they’re allowed to participate, there’s no healing or no
wellness that occurs. And it’s a very profound statement, or profound way of life
for our people.
JJ:

Now, when you say --

LF:

I think it makes us unique. We’re not Christians, we’re not Jewish, we’re not
Muslim, but we practice a traditional manner of worship, and that’s -- white
America needs to understand that. White America needs to appreciate diversity
in their [00:15:00] -- white America needs to appreciate the sincerity, the
uniqueness, the wellness and the healing that takes place by utilizing our
traditional practices in the prison system. Majority of our Native Americans,
perhaps as much as 95, 99 percent are incarcerated because of alcohol and
substance abuse, alcohol related crimes. So, we have a duty to reach out to the
young Natives, the Native Americans that are -- men and women that are
incarcerated to provide an opportunity for a wellness, a spiritual healing, so when
they leave, they won’t end up reoffending. They know that they have a
[00:16:00] responsibility of going home and taking care of their families, taking
care of their children, getting a job, being law-abiding. That’s important, that
concept, law-abiding. That means you’re not going to become a burden to the

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�community, to your family, and terrorize the community, or terrorize your own
family. And that happens. That occurs a lot, and the person reoffends because
person gets out, his spiritual identity is not intact. They still have a sense of
wanting to consume alcohol. They experience a blackout, and act out and
terrorize their home. Their responsibilities as a man, as a person, or as a
woman, [00:17:00] is not something that they live or practice. Instead, they want
to drink. So, it’s up to us as spiritual leaders to talk about these things, these
ways and the habits, addictive behavior. Look, you’re not helping your family
when you’re terrorizing them, when you’re taking methamphetamines. That’s a
real common problem on the reservations. And we feel that the sweat lodge is
the key. Pipe ceremony is the key. Visits by spiritual leaders is the key to
changing those kind of behaviors. So, actually, when you look at the whole
concept, the whole philosophy, it’s very elementary. We are attempting to help
our own people using our own traditional beliefs and values. [00:18:00] And if
you have prison officials that stop that, or don’t approve of these ways, it makes
our job much harder to create that environment of healing, wellness.
JJ:

What do you think that got them involved into substance abuse?

LF:

What’s that?

JJ:

What do you think got them involved into alcohol and [other things?]?

LF:

Well, my theory about that is the feeling that’s been -- the colonizers, the
colonizers make us feel ashamed of who we are. The colonizers brainwash us to
discredit our dignity and our pride as Native Americans, which results in a lot of
shaming, [00:19:00] a lot of addictive behaviors, lot of anger. And they act out

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�and they consume alcohol. I’ve seen behaviors among our Native Americans,
especially young ones, they end up in prison because they’re very angry, maybe
towards their tribe or towards their community, towards their family. And then
even their own mothers and fathers, they were upset because they didn’t learn
the language, they didn’t learn the culture, they didn’t learn the spiritual practices.
And they get incarcerated, and then they request, they say, “I need a medicine
man to come and visit me, to talk to me, to pray with me, to doctor me, using
prayers and songs.” And sometimes that occurs. Other times, the warden and
the chaplain will say, “No, we can’t allow that.” [00:20:00] The concept of
incarceration is to lock up a person, throw the key away. And that’s their method
or form of not only punishment, but thinking that they’re going to change a
person. It doesn’t change them. It just makes them more angry. And I find that
among young Native Americans who don’t have an opportunity to engage in their
ceremonial practices. So, it’s a difficult issue in today’s time. But that’s the work
that I do, and that’s the work that I do. I got started in that 1980, ’81. So, that’s
been a long time. And I engage and have experiences in [00:21:00] litigation.
Like I said, I’ve worked with attorneys from the Native American Rights Fund, I’ve
had introduction of legislation through the New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, and
Utah state legislatures. I would approach a Native American senator, a Native
American House of Representative, and sit down with the officials and say that,
“We need to introduce, you need to help us introduce a bill that will address that,
and put it into the state statutes,” and then the senator or the House of
Representatives will say, “Okay, we can do that. But you need to explain again.

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�We have to really go in depth about [00:22:00] what is a sweat lodge? What’s
the purpose of a sweat lodge? What’s a pipe? What’s the purpose of using the
pipe?” And we have to educate our own officials. So, then, once we’re able to
do that, to create an awareness, then then the senator will -- Senator John Pinto
has been a very good ally of us in New Mexico. Senator Jackson,
Representative Peaches and Representative Albert Hill. People like that, who
are Native American legislatures at the state level. Senator Inouye from Hawaii,
Senator Wellstone from Minnesota. Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell from
Colorado. These are people that we worked with to introduce legislation. So,
once that [00:23:00] passes the committee, the various committees, gets to the
governor’s desk, they will sign it, and it becomes state law. Or if it gets to the
federal legislation, then it has to come before the committees, the Senate Indian
Affairs Committees is one that hears these bills. And if they agree, and they vote
on it, and it’s approved, then it would be signed into federal law. So, it’s a
lengthy process. It involves hearings, it involves lobbying, it involves advocating
for these ways at different levels of government.
JJ:

How did you get involved in doing those litigations?

LF:

Well, like I said, in 1981, [00:24:00] I was a graduate student at Arizona State
University in Tempe, Arizona. And I was asked to meet with the Native American
inmates at the state prison there in Florence, Arizona. And I sat down with them.
There was maybe 10 Native American inmates of different tribes, and they
basically asked for use of a sweat lodge on the grounds. And they were aware of
it, but I knew that I could be a teacher, a mentor, because I had more extensive

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�knowledge about the use of the sweat lodge and the pipe ceremony. So, it
became my responsibility to educate, inform, and teach. As they would say,
preach and teach. And so, I took it upon myself to do that, and I approached a
representative [00:25:00] from the state legislature, and I approached them, and
we sat down, and they wrote down the legislative language. So, that’s how I got
involved, it dates all the way back to 1981. And the same experiences is very
similar, if I did it, or maybe another person did it, it doesn’t really matter, because
the process and protocol is the same. In order to introduce legislation, you need
to sit down and write it in a legislative language, and put down on paper, then it’s
introduced by the representative, whether he’s a senator or representative,
introduce it to committees, and they’ll review it, and if it’s acceptable, then they
give it a number and there’d be a hearing. I learned all this. I learned all this.
[00:26:00] And so, somebody listening right now that doesn’t understand it, you
will have to do some research just exactly what the protocol, the process in each
state, whether it’s Illinois, Michigan, Arizona, New Mexico, there’s a process.
There’s a protocol of how a bill is introduced and it’s assigned a number, and it
goes before various committees, and then the committees will hear, and it’s up to
us as the sponsor, to invite some witnesses. And ex-offenders are some of the
best witnesses, because they themselves know what problems they had while
they were incarcerated to ask to see a spiritual leader. Maybe they were turned
down and told, “No, you need to see a priest. You need to see a preacher.” That
doesn’t work. [00:27:00] If a Native American has traditional beliefs and

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�traditional values, and he wants a medicine man, a spiritual advisor, to come in
and talk to him and pray with him. And that’s what I do.
JJ:

You never mentioned that.

LF:

Well, I’m a spiritual leader a spiritual advisor. I’m a pipe carrier, Sundancer. So,
that’s what I do.

JJ:

Can you explain that, and how did you become that?

LF:

Well, it’s a special gift from the Creator. In some ways, you’re born with that gift.
In other ways, you have to fast for it, go up on the hill, and go on a vision quest.
And that gift is bestowed upon you by the Great Spirit. So, you take that and
you’re able to heal, create some healing with the individual who asks for help.
I’m a member of the Native American Church. [00:28:00] I’ve sun danced for 26
years, so I’ve developed my gift. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the last 35
years. It’s a real intensive experience of learning these ways. So, that’s what I
wanted to share. That’s part of the work I do as a Program Supervisor for the
Corrections Project, that I work with the Navajo Nation Behavioral Health. And
it’s my duty and responsibility to reach out to Native Americans that are
incarcerated, Navajo and other tribes.

JJ:

Which states do you work in?

LF:

I work in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Texas, Oklahoma, California.
Then I also visit federal prisons, and that would be [00:29:00] the USP Tucson,
the USP Leavenworth, FCI Phoenix, FCI Safford, FCI La Tuna, Colorado,
Florence, Colorado, the ADX and the USP, Leavenworth, Allenwood, Lewisburg,
Atlanta, Georgia, wherever Native Americans are incarcerated, they will ask for

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�me to come and visit. Sometimes the chaplain will make that request, and then I
gotta respond. That’s what I do. That’s my work. I get paid by the Navajo
Nation to do that.
JJ:

You do get paid by the Navajo Nation?

LF:

Navajo Nation. I developed that program. So, we have a program that’s funded
by the Navajo Nation to take care of its people in the prison setting. So, that’s
what I’ve been doing for the last 35 years. [00:30:00] And it’s a good experience
for me, because I feel I’m giving of myself, teaching, instructing, and creating an
awareness. But I’m retiring. I’m retiring in December of this year. So, I’ll be
stepping aside and letting someone else take over, and I’m gonna just relax.

JJ:

You grew up in the reservation?

LF:

Oh, yeah.

JJ:

So, can you describe growing up?

LF:

Well, I grew up in a sheep camp where I was raised by my grandmother,
grandfather --

JJ:

[Can you mention their names?]?

LF:

-- and my parents were traditional Navajo speaking.

JJ:

Can you mention their names?

LF:

My grandfather, his name was [Jim Blacko Begay?], [00:31:00] and my
grandmother is [Ursula Begay?] My paternal grandparents were Samuel Foster
and Ann Foster. They were all traditional Navajos who lived, raised -- were
sheep herders. They lived off the land, planted corn, potatoes, and lived that
way of life. They had horses and some cattle and lived basically on the land. No

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�running water inside, no heating, and everything. You’ve got to go out and chop
wood to bring it. That’s what I used to do to help them. And me and my sister.
And then we’d go out and herd sheep. So, that was a lifestyle. That way of life is
disappearing. Nowadays, [00:32:00] you have use of pickup, you know, going to
the stores. Back then, there wasn’t -- when I was growing up, there wasn’t -they had the trading post, but that was quite a ways of distance. And they had a
horse-drawn wagon.
JJ:

A trading post is like a store?

LF:

Yeah, it’s a store that sold pretty much everything.

JJ:

You mean food and (inaudible)?

LF:

Yeah, I’d say it was a different way of life. But today, things have changed.
We’re in the 21st century, so you know, you have pickups that’s replaced a horse.
It’s replaced a horse-drawn wagon. Pickups and cars. And you even have cell
phones now. You have access to computers now. So, things have changed.
And through that change [00:33:00] has resulted in bad habits in our diet and
health. We have obesity, alcoholism, diabetes. And that lifestyle has changed
our habits and the way we live. It’s not good because we’re turning towards the
white man’s way of colonization, and it’s very disturbing. The younger generation
has a problem with speaking the language. And I’m sure it’s the same in the
Spanish. I’ve run into people who have a hard time speaking fluently in their
native languages, whether it’s Spanish or whatever language that they were to
speak. It’s a big problem with Native Americans. [00:34:00] It’s much easier to
speak in English than speak our Native language. So, there’s a --

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�JJ:

Do you have schools and things --

LF:

Yeah, we’ve got the public schools. See, that’s part of the problem. The schools
don’t teach the language, they don’t teach the culture, they don’t teach the
history. Everything is colonized history. Everything is Columbus discovered
America, and Dick and Jane as the primary characters of what the middle class
world is all about. That doesn’t apply to us. That’s a foreign concept. But that’s
destroying our intelligence. It’s destroying our dignity. It’s destroying our
language and our culture. And [00:35:00] we need to change those ways. I grew
up in the schools there in Fort Defiance, and we didn’t learn the language. We
had to learn that at home. But some places, families don’t teach the Navajo
language and Navajo culture at home. They rely on the school to do it, and the
school doesn’t do that. So, a person grows up not speaking his language, not
knowing his culture. That’s a big problem. So, I was lucky that I was raised by
my grandparents. They lived a traditional way of life. They spoke Navajo in the
home. And my grandparents were spiritual people. So, they taught my sister
and I some of the beliefs, the [00:36:00] values that today I carry with me. As I
got older, I progressed through the schools. See, my father was a Navajo Code
Talker, USMC Marine during World War II, and he saw the world out there. And
he went out there, and he saw the value of education. So, when he was
discharged after the war, when he came home to the reservation and started
having kids, my mother, they both agreed that we should be educated. So, my
sister, myself, and my three brothers, we all went to school, we learned the white
man’s education, and we finished high school, went to college, finished that, and

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�[00:37:00] came home, got jobs, became responsible. I, myself, never went to
prison. I work in the prison system as a spiritual counselor, but I never went to
prison, so I was able to utilize my experience and pass through the NCIC
background check, which is very extensive. Because they’ll do the National
Crime Information Center background check, if you have any arrests, that
automatically disqualifies you from working as a counselor in the system.
Because most Native Americans have some form of an arrest record, so that
prohibits a person from doing -JJ:

How did you stay away from it?

LF:

Well, I got involved with school. I got involved with sports. [00:38:00] I knew that
-- well, my parents, they didn’t use alcohol. My grandparents didn’t use alcohol.
So, they provided me with good role models. I had friends in school, high school
especially, that drank and smoked. I didn’t do that. So, I basically stayed away
from that. And then when I got into college, same thing. I played some
basketball and baseball, stayed active with sports. I stuck with my school, made
my grades, stayed away from alcohol and drugs. So, I didn’t commit any crimes.
And so, I was lucky in that way. And all of my brothers and sisters, we didn’t get
into it. [00:39:00] Because we’re isolated, also. I mean, if we lived in a city,
maybe it would have been different, but we lived way out on the reservation, so
we don’t have that opportunity to do these things. You have to go to the border
towns, like to Gallup, New Mexico, to Flagstaff, Arizona, and you get caught up in
the alcohol, drugs, and next thing you know, you’re arrested, or you’re acting out,
or maybe you’re being angry about not being able to experience the culture or

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�the language. That’s important, because once you mess a man’s mind, you’re
making him ashamed of who he is as an Indian, develops a real sense of shame
and anger. [00:40:00] And if he drinks, all that act out, he acts out his anger, and
he’d end up fighting, doing things that’s not appropriate behavior. Burglaries,
assault, sexual assault, assault with a deadly weapon, drinking results in DWI.
You know, all these different crimes that exist because a person is drinking to
escape his shame. And it’s a big problem. I’ll tell you, it’s a big problem. Alcohol
is not good for our people. Even smoking tobacco.
JJ:

You were a counselor [00:41:00] but what other types of jobs did you have
through your life?

LF:

Well, I went to school for sociology. I got a degree in sociology. So, when I got
out of college, I went to work with social work, and working with families and
juveniles. That’s hard work, because you’re working with people’s behavior. And
we have a lot of problems. We’ve got a lot of problems. Alcoholism is a major
problem. Drugs. So, we’ve got to deal with those. And then I decided that that
wasn’t something I wanted to do, so I applied for a position as a community
center director, and I enjoyed that more because I’m dealing with a community
where I establish programs for the youth, [00:42:00] athletic programs, men and
women, juvenile basketball. We had a city league, arts and crafts, developing
the crafts of our Native people, swimming, taught swimming. Youth programs,
an emphasis away from the alcohol, glue sniffing, spray paint. So, that work I did
for maybe 10 years. I was a director of a community center and dealt with the
whole community. And it was a big gymnasium. I allowed them to use the

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�showers, and kept it open for activity after school, during the evenings, on the
weekends. And I just didn’t close the community center. I kept it open for the
community. [00:43:00] So, I did that for 10 years. Then I eventually moved on. I
went back to school. And that’s where I became involved in the prison work, and
that was very satisfactory to me, because I was able to go into the prisons and
use my experience, what I learned from my grandparents, speaking the
language, teaching the prayers, teaching the songs. And the inmates, they took
to that really well, because they were hungry for knowledge. They were hungry
for information. I essentially became a teacher, a spiritual leader. I’ve done that
for 35 years. But in the process, I’ve done, like I said, litigation, to create new
laws, legislation, [00:44:00] negotiations. Every week I run ceremonies.
JJ:

New laws against social injustice?

LF:

Yeah, to change the white man’s law. See, white man’s laws, they prohibit
traditional beliefs and values. They want all of us to cut our hair. They want us
to forget our language. They want us to pick up the Bible. They want us to be
Christians. But we’re not cut out to be facsimile of a white man. We do that,
then we have a real, serious identity crisis. So, the legislation is to establish our
beliefs, our practices, and then the legislation -- or see, the litigation is to
establish the laws, to put it into the law books. And [00:45:00] then, the
legislations to establish that, become part of the overall religious services or the
practices. And then the negotiation is to talk about it, put it on the table, sit at the
table, let’s put everything on here without resorting to expensive lawsuits, or even
legislation. It’s just, let’s just develop a policy where it’s mutual agreement. So,

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�we have to we have to be assertive. We have to be aggressive. And we have to
be confident that what we’re talking about, we believe in. It’s just not exercise.
And you’ve got to know what you’re talking about. You know, dealing with the
white man can be difficult because he has a different mindset. And so, that’s
been my experience. [00:46:00] And I’ve taken this experience in these areas,
and I became Leonard Peltier’s a spiritual leader. I’ve known him since 1970.
Him and I were friends in Denver, Colorado. And then he got into trouble with
the law defending his people and his land up in South Dakota, where two FBI
agents were shot, and some of the people who were present that day turned
witness against him and said he was the shooter, which really he wasn’t. These
young Natives were threatened by the FBI, and they turned witness, federal
witness. The FBI [00:47:00] fabricated the evidence, they fabricated witnesses.
They didn’t tell the truth. The shell casing didn’t match the firing pin in the rifle
that supposedly was used. They fabricated that. The affidavits were fabricated.
They extradited him from Canada based on false affidavits, false witness. So,
everything that the government utilized in its case was all lies. And he’s been in
prison for 41 years on constitutional violations that were committed, fraud. And
when tests were finally done, the government hid the results of those tests from
the jury and from the judge. We want to retrial for him, but the judges, [00:48:00]
the court said no. They locked him into the case. So, everything was based on a
lie. And we can prove it. The shell casings were tested by experts, FBI experts,
and they came to the conclusion the rifle that was supposedly used, the AR-15,
which is similar to M-16, the shell casing didn’t match the firing pin. So, it

18

�couldn’t have been -- that rifle wasn’t used in this shooting. Yet, they said they
matched. And they testified. In court. The FBI experts testified in court and said
that it was a match. It wasn’t. Later, we -- the lawyers, Bruce Ellison, dug up the
information and realized that the feds had lied on that. They didn’t match. And
then, when they brought them up, put them [00:49:00] on the stand, they lied.
They were caught in a lie, but the judge just overruled it, and basically they had
to lock somebody into that case. So, Leonard Peltier was found guilty. And it’s
been 41 years now. I’ve been visiting him for 31 years.
JJ:

Can you explain --

LF:

For a while there, no one was allowed to see him. No one was allowed to see
when he was at Marion. USP Marion, no one could go to see him.

JJ:

Can you describe what type of person Leonard Peltier is?

LF:

Oh, Leonard’s very friendly. He’s very outgoing. He’s genuine friendly. Kind.
He’s a mentor. He’s an excellent painter. He’s a mentor to the other inmates.
He doesn’t drink. He doesn’t smoke. [00:50:00] But he’s suffering some bad
health. He’s got diabetes, he’s got bad high blood pressure, he’s losing his
eyesight. He’s not in good health. We need to get him out. But he’s a good
person. He’s full of humor. He’s a very genuine, solid person. I believe that
years of advocacy and lobbying for his freedom is finally going to result in
executive clemency being approved. I feel that. I think that will happen. I think
President Obama will free him.

JJ:

And you were in a committee that’s trying to -- you’re working on that case.

19

�LF:

Yeah. I’ve [00:51:00] testified on his behalf in Congress. I highlighted his case
when I went to the United Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, I met with Evo
Morales in Bolivia last fall to advocate his case to Evo Morales in the Bolivian
embassy, and he said he was going to write a letter to Obama. I’m sure he has.
I went to Paris, France, met with the daughter of Frantz Fanon. You know, he’s a
well-known -- he was a very well-known human rights activist and a writer,
author, Franz Fanon’s daughter has a foundation. And they named Leonard a
recipient of that Human Rights Award. And I went to Paris, France to accept the
award for [00:52:00] him, or on his behalf, which was very significant. So, he’s
got supporters all over the world. He’s had Nelson Mandela, the Dalai Lama, the
Bishop Tutu from Cape Town, South Africa, people like that, [numerous of?]
Congress. He’s got a lot of support. But it’s been hard. The different -President Reagan, Carter, Bush, W. Bush, they just won’t deal with it. But
Clinton came close. But I think he backed out. And I think President Obama will
sign, will sign the executive clemency. We’ve got a [00:53:00] resolution of
support from the Navajo Nation, resolution of support from the National Congress
of American Indians, various other organizations that support Leonard Peltier’s
release on executive clemency. So, it’s going to become a reality. I feel that
that’s something that’s going to happen. We just continue to pray and continue
to lobby and advocate for his freedom. So, this is what I want to say at this time.
It’s been my work for the last 35 years. It’s been very exhausting. I feel that I put
in my time and did that [00:54:00] as part of my work for the Navajo Nation. I’ve
become very aware of the criminal justice system, the prison system, based on

20

�my work, and hopefully I’ll be retiring the end of this year. And if you want to get
a hold of me, just call me at 928-729-4475, in Window Rock, Arizona, and
whatever I can do to help your research or what you’re doing. And thank you for
listening.
JJ:

Can you describe a little bit about -- you were talking about (inaudible)

LF:

In 1973, I was a very active member of the [00:55:00] Denver, Colorado
American Indian Movement. And as part of the American Indian Movement, I
traveled with Denver AIM up to South Dakota to lend support to their quest for
justice. The tribal chairman at the time was very corrupt, misusing tribal funds
and utilizing an auxiliary police force to suppress its people. And it resulted in a
very intense struggle. And it became an armed struggle. For 71 days, there was
an occupation, a siege at Wounded Knee. I participated in that. I survived 11
firefights. I was right in the front lines. I was in a Little Bighorn bunker with some
young brothers. At the time, I was 25 years old, and I was in the bunker with
John Perot, Fuzzy Miller, Stan [00:56:00] Letender, John Carlson, Percy Casper.
These were some of the people. David Wilson. These are some of the young
men. We’re almost all the same age. And we’re in a Little Big Horn bunker. And
we engaged in some pretty intense gun firefights. No one was hit.

JJ:

This is public information. It’s all public information?

LF:

Yeah, it’s out there. But you know, it was a matter of self-defense. They
surrounded us. They wanted us to give up, surrender. And that didn’t happen.
For 71 [00:57:00] days, we were engaged in a real intense self-defense. So, that
experience for Indian people across this country made a realization that our

21

�ancestors did the same thing. It just became common knowledge that we have
this DNA as Indian people that we will defend our people, and we will defend our
way of life and defend the land. It’s still happening today.
JJ:

You call it DNA of Indian people.

LF:

Yeah, we have that in our DNA. We resort to defending Mother Earth, and
defending the water, defending the resources, defending our people, future
generations. And that’s happening today up in Cannon Ball, North Dakota,
[00:58:00] where the Standing Rock Sioux people are standing up for their right
to defend water, water rights. It’s very important. Indian’s use of water in
ceremonial practices. It’s life. And we see that the Dakota Access Pipeline is
making plans to dig up a right of way, lay down pipes all the way from Canada,
and ship oil. But we know that’s not safe. And what will happen if they have a -because a lot of these companies, they do shoddy construction. They slap
things together and they leave. They get paid and they leave. What happens to
the Indian people that live on the land [00:59:00] who are going to experience an
oil spill? And that will go into the ground, into the water table. The Missouri
River is where those pipes -- so the Standing Rock Sioux people are making a
stand with support from other Indian people throughout Western Hemisphere.
Right now, I understand there’s 6,000. 7,000 Indian people there camped,
helping. And that whole experience is that the white corporations, the
companies, are totally disregarding the free, prior informed consent, consultation
with the Indian tribes, the Indian nations, as to why they want to build right
through there instead of saying, “We’re just going to use this right away and

22

�build, tear up the land and tear up the cultural sites, the sacred sites.” [01:00:00]
Cemeteries. They’re even tearing up the land where they’re uncovering graves.
That’s stupid. That’s crazy. So, we’re asking that people, concerned people,
make a stand right alongside our Standing Rock Sioux people.
JJ:

Have you been able to go?

LF:

I haven’t been up there, no.

JJ:

Do you know of some people that have gone there?

LF:

Oh, yeah. My daughter is up there, and so is my grandson, and my brother and
his wife are traveling there.

JJ:

I heard there’s five or 6,000 people.

LF:

Yeah, there’s a lot of people there. And I went to a meeting in Phoenix, Arizona
last week with the National Congress of American Indians. And the tribal
chairman, the leader, was a Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, Dave Archambault,
came and made a presentation and requested help from other tribes. [01:01:00]
And he has it. It’s an issue that needs to be supported, and I think it’s one of the
most profound issues, in not only Indian country today, but white America. White
people can’t drink oil. They don’t care about future generations. That’s not in
their DNA to be concerned for human rights or treaty rights, or concerned for the
environment. Because they have the might, and they’ve got the money. They
want to just [bogart?] their way through all of this in the process. It’s only a
matter of time before there’ll be an oil spill. They did that in Alaska. And they
didn’t hold that company liable for what they did, the Valdez. [01:02:00] It ran the
ground and erupted that ship, and all the oil got all over the place. It could

23

�happen in North Dakota. See, that pipeline started in Canada, and then it goes -it went into North Dakota, and then they have plans to go continue, Iowa and
South Dakota. But they’ll be met with resistance from other tribes that live in
Iowa and South Dakota. So, this issue isn’t over by many means. It’s going to
be a burden on the government. It’s going to be a thorn in the side of the white
America. There’s not only legal obligations, but [01:03:00] moral obligations, how
they’re going to deal with it, how they’re going to stop it.
JJ:

And it’s getting a lot of support. I know people from Chicago, from SDS,
(inaudible).

LF:

Yeah, it’s something that involves all people. I know Wounded Knee, that’s how
Wounded Knee happened. We had 71 days of armed -- it was finally because
the government brought in the FBI and the federal marshals, and they’re trained
to use deadly force. So, that was what happened for 71 days, engaging in
firefights. It was a result was some people died as a result of firefights, put our
arms down, surrender, went to court. Many of our people’s cases were
dismissed as [01:04:00] self-defense. And as a result from all of that, Leonard
Peltier was targeted. And now he’s been in prison for 41 years. He’s 72 years
old. We need to get him out of prison. So, I just want to say that much at this
time. I’m gonna --

JJ:

Could you just talk a little bit about Richard Oaks?

LF:

Oh, Richard Oaks. He was one of the leaders from New York. He was a
Mohawk. He married an Indian woman from Northern California, and he was one
of the student leaders at San Francisco State College. As a result of his

24

�leadership, he had the [01:05:00] charisma to lead, and they decided to occupy
Alcatraz Island because, based on the 1868 treaty, the Fort Laramie treaty, any
federal lands were vacated or was termed surplus, that it would revert back to the
Indian people. So, the students from San Francisco State College and from
UCLA and other schools decided to occupy Alcatraz Island as a learning center,
a cultural center for education, museum, education center for all tribes. And it
went on for 18 months, [01:06:00] negotiations between Nixon’s administration
and the Indians, and it resulted -- after 18 months, it began in November 1969,
and it resulted ending in June 17, 1971, where the federal marshals came on the
land and all remaining young Natives were arrested. Richard Oaks had left
because his daughter fell. There were stairs, and she eventually died. And it
was a bad omen. He took it as a bad omen and decided to move his family.
They went back to Pit River, Northern California. And then when he was there,
he had a confrontation with a park ranger.
JJ:

(inaudible) went there (inaudible) that’s when it ended.

LF:

Yeah, [01:07:00] a lot of the people went to Pit River.

JJ:

Who went to Alcatraz.

LF:

Yeah, and a park ranger shot and killed Richard Oaks. So, that’s how that
happened. It was very sad, because he was a good leader. He was a very
promising leader for the Indian community. He was young. He was young. I
knew him. When I first came to Alcatraz from Fort Collins, Colorado, I met [Pat
Janea?], Joe Bill, Al Miller, Richard Oaks, because I knew Pat Janea from my
childhood on the Navajo reservation, they all accepted me, and Pat told them

25

�that I was an old friend from grade school from the Navajo reservation. So, that’s
how I became acquainted with Richard Oaks, Al Miller, [01:08:00] and Joe Bill.
They were good friends. We were all young. We were all young. At that time, I
was 21 years old. And that was 1969, 1970. A long time ago. And that was a -I guess I would say it was a moment in history that proved to be defining moment
for the movement. It opened up the doors for future movement activities. It
opened our eyes as Indian people. We have treaty rights; we have human rights.
It went beyond civil rights. That experience there allowed us to exercise our
treaty rights. We’re still basing that today, we’ve taken our issues into the
international community, [01:09:00] at the United Nations, Geneva, Switzerland.
I myself have been to Geneva, Switzerland a number of times, testifying before
the Human Rights Council, the Committee for the Elimination of Racism, CERT,
and just other various interventions in the area of treaty rights and environmental
rights, human rights. But the process at the United Nations very slow. You’ve
got to be patient. You express or do an intervention and testify, it might be a
year or two before any kind of result will happen. So, that’s some of my
experience. [01:10:00] And I want to thank you for -JJ:

Do you have any final thoughts?

LF:

Well, I think the younger generation needs to be ready to get involved more so.
Educate yourself. Participate in the ceremonies. To those that are incarcerated,
I would say, to learn all about your spiritual values, your spiritual identity, so you
can leave and be comfortable where you don’t need to resort to alcohol, and you
can help your family and not be a burden to your community and take care of

26

�your kids. That would be my advice to those that are incarcerated. And to those
young students, to learn all you can. [01:11:00] Do some research. Research
the treaties. See what the treaty actually says. A lot of times we don’t know
what was written in those treaties until you really research and see what are
some of the finer items, or points of further discussion. An example, they’re
having to deal with health, health issues. The treaty guaranteed health concerns
would be addressed. Education. So, when you talk about education, you’re
talking about money for scholarships, housing, healthcare. These things. And
[01:12:00] even the courts, the criminal justice system, the treaties guaranteed
that anyone breaking the law, or any white men that came on to the reservation
breaking the law would be subject to punishment by the courts. So, they have to
be carried out. So, researching the items and the specifics of treaties, you just
have to research and look at, what does the treaty say? What exactly did it
guarantee us? Now there’s a fight for water. There’s a fight for uranium, coal,
gas, and oil, and those rights that we have, and the white man is trying to take
that. So, it’s not right. These treaties are the supreme law of the [01:13:00] land.
The international court recognizes it. And other countries throughout the world,
they press upon the United States when they’re being an advocate of human
rights, they’re reminded by other countries, “You’re violating the First Nations’
rights.” In other words, honor those treaties you signed with the Indian people.
The United States doesn’t like to hear that, that they’re at fault. So, that’s about
how much I’m going to say.
JJ:

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

27

�LF:

Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

END OF VIDEO FILE

28

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&#13;
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                  <text>&lt;a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D"&gt;Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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