471 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5b2b91d9c6780841c319b02e043dc75.pdf 74aede330e540e063f634e75c6bbba04 PDF Text Text Concluding Remarks by Russell G. Mawby, Chairman and CEO W. K. Kellogg Foundation Family Community Leadership Workshop September 26, 1986 Denver, Colorado I am glad to be with you for this concluding session of the Family Community Leadership Conference. My only regret is that I have not been here for the full time so that I could meet more of you, but I appreciate so much your warm welcome and the chance to visit with many of you in this short period of time. I feel right at home with this kind of group because, as indicated, I have a rural background. deal in my life. Extension and 4-H have meant a great I was a 4-H club member and my mother was very active in the Michigan Extension Homemakers. I really credit the Extension home demonstration agent, the county agricultural agent and the district 4-H agent, along with my mother and dad, for encouraging me to become the first of my family to go to college. My wife, Ruth, was a county home demonstration agent, and I was an Extension agent, specialist, administrator, and volunteer. So Extension has been very much a part of our lives for a long period of time. My career and my personal interests have been very much involved with a lot of the issues and activities that are of concern to you. It has been over 20 years since I left Michigan State University to join the W. K. Kellogg Foundation. As one of my colleagues said at that time, I "traded in my academic robe for a foundation garment." My heart, however, is still very close to your concerns, and fortunately a lot of the philosophy and activities of this Foundation are similar to those that you and I share. I have often �2 confessed to some of my friends in home economics that if I were to be reincarnated in an Extension career, I would wish, at this point in the life of society, to become a State Leader for Home Economics Extension. I say that simply because it seems to me that if we look at perplexing concerns of American society, the emphases and purposes to which you are committed have greater potential for addressing some of those needs constructively than any of the other programs with which I am familiar. I want to congratulate everyone who has been a part of bringing us together on this occasion. some years ago. I first heard about the concept which led to FCL It was in 1978 or 1979 that I had the pleasure of meeting with Charline Warren and other officers of the National Extension Homemakers Council at the National 4-H Center in Washington, D.C. The FCL idea was just beginning to take form and it materialized dramatically through the years of initial impetus from the Extension Homemakers, and shepherded along by others like Eleanor Whittemore who have been important in the process. It is a partnership effort. Many different folks have been involved, and the Extension and volunteer partnership and collaboration are extremely important. Orville Young was one of the early Extension leaders on the regional and the national level to give it real endorsement, encouragement, and support. That collaborative partnership is symbolized by these name badges that simply tell you that I am Russ from Michigan. because all of us serve a common purpose. That is great We have the same objectives in mind, and each of us makes a particular contribution; so whether the label is volunteer or professional doesn't make any difference as long as we recognize that we do share a mission. To the six states that have been the pioneers, the forerunners and the experimenters, we express our special gratitude and admiration. We are �3 grateful to all of the people involved in so many ways in bringing about the FCL success. I salute all of you who have been a part of this process. A special tribute goes to the planning committee. seen them, and tolerated them this week. You have met them, In my brief military career at Camp Chaffe in Arkansas, I whitewashed rocks and served in an artillery unit. In artillery terms, your co-chairs would be a "BB" team--Bassett and Barron. practice, however, they have had the impact of a howitzer. In To Lois and Jim, who co-chaired this activity, and the full committee, we are grateful for a tremendous conference. Speaking for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation, we have been privileged indeed to be helpful to you by providing a bit of assistance in this experiment -- the development, testing, and evaluation which leads us to this national dissemination conference. The support by the Foundation for the Family Community Leadership program is just a part of a long-term commitment to people, families, communities, and leadership. Sometimes there is confusion about the relationship between the Kellogg Company and the W. K. Kellogg Foundation. The tie is simply one man -- W. K. Kellogg. Mr. Kellogg, back in 1906, quit his job at age 46 as the administrator of a hospital and started the Kellogg Company. He very early determined that whatever fortune he accumulated he would somehow dedicate to human benefit. In 1930, at the age of 70, he established this Foundation, and there is the tie; only people are important and that one man made that difference. We started out as a very small Foundation working in just seven counties in southcentral Michigan. health, libraries, and families. international in stature. largest in the country. We worked on problems of education, public Now, of course, we have grown to be The Foundation is now among the two or three In our fiscal year just ended on August 31, we had �4 assets of $3.1 billion, revenues of $81 million, and we are projecting for the current year an increase of 18 percent to $96 million dollars in support of about 600 different projects around the world. As an old farm boy, those figures alwa ys overwhelm me. Historically, the Foundation has always been concerned with leadership of all sorts to enable people in various settings and circumstances to contribute constructively to societal progress. So we have worked for years, and still do, with school boards, hospital boards, the United Way, the Urban League, and fellowship programs of various kinds. One example you may be familiar with is the Farmer's Study Program or the Agricultural Leadership Program that started on a small basis in one, then two, then five states and now serves in at least 23 different states around the country. Our concern is with encouraging people to take a greater role in shaping today and tomorrow. It is very natural, then, that the Foundation was excited by the concept of Family Community Leadership. of these words is tremendous. You recognize it -- just remind yourself of their importance occ asionally as you move forward. social unit in our society. The importance of each Family -- it is the basic We are beginning to appreciate to a greater extent some of the values embodied in strong families; values like discipline and hard work and ambition and self-sacrifice and patience and caring and love. We are beginning to realize with all of the changes in traditional family structures that those values are still tremendously important; as human individuals we need close and caring and loving relationships. While the details of f amily structure may change (and they have been changing for centuries), the basic notion is still valid. We have found in our programs that many people like to be students of the family, we find many who would like to be critics of the family, but we find too few who are advocates of the family. I am delighted that you are advocates for families. �5 Second is community. That's where we live. There has been a tendency for the past half-century to transfer responsibilities for important concerns from the individual and the family to someone else. In similar fashion, we have transferred responsibility from the local community to ever-higher levels of government. I think we are now appreciating the fact that a lot of those efforts have been less successful than we would hope, and to some extent we are beginning to see a transition back to local responsibility. It will be tough because we have become dependent upon grants from federal sources for all sorts of things in our schools, in urban development and other areas. Nonetheless, we are beginning to recognize that some of the wisest decisions are made closest to the problem. Communities, whether you define them as your local neighborhood or a local unit of government, up to the State, are going to become increasingly important in shaping the future. This means that the individual citizen will have increasing opportunities to make a difference at the community level on significant concerns. Family plus community plus leadership. There are lots of definitions of a leader, but I always think of a leader as someone who recognizes a need and then does something about it. a doer. It is much easier to be a critic than to be It is much easier to sit back and say, "Why doesn't the school board do this thing or the other?" "Why don't they do something about the quality of the water in our local river?" to criticize. "Why don't they do something?" It is easy It is much more difficult to move forward in constructive action, but that is what leaders do. Leaders come in all kinds and varieties with all sorts of caps and titles, and different circumstances require differences in those who assume leadership responsibilities. Each of those words -- Family, Community, and Leadership -- are tremendously important. You know a lot about FCL now. We are delighted, �6 simply overwhelmed, that 48 states plus Guam elected to come to this national dissemination workshop. year ago. I remember when we first started talking about this a Lois was always optimistic that everybody was going to come; the realists said if we could get 30 states it would be great. It's marvelous that there has been such an enthusiastic response. I have been asked to comment on plans for the future. say much about the future because you will determine that. I really cannot You will decide and you will be the key factor as to whether anything happens in your home state -- Alabama or Maryland or wherever. One of the realities is that foundations cannot do anything by themselves. We can only be helpful to you in addressing issues that you think are important. I suggest that if you reflect thoughtfully in addressing any issue, or in pursuing any opportunity, money is usually not the constraint. It is a part of the solution but usually not the limiting factor in making really important things happen. Only people are important. vision, commitment, skills and energy to make things happen. many of you comment that FCL has great potential. except as it's vested in you. People who have I have heard It really has none at all, It will do nothing unless you make it so. Speaking again for the Kellogg Foundation, we hope we can be a continuing helpful partner in pursuing what we regard as an extraordinary idea. As Jim has indicated, the planning grants will be available to you as a team in going back to your respective states to develop plans for the future if you subscribe to the stanzas on page 4.12 of your hymnal (FCL Handbook). Read page 4.12 and you will know exactly how to get a planning grant. I would indicate further that the Kellogg Foundation is prepared to consider assistance to those states that wish to develop a program based on the FCL experience and model. developed. The detailed guidelines have not yet been Dr. Gary King will be working on that from our perspective �7 along with people like Dr. Dan Moore, from Penn State, who will be joining us at the Foundation shortly. And we certainly will work with the program committee to develop those plans. At this point, however, the following points seem appropriate: 1. We will be prepared to provide grants to single states, or, if you feel that a collaborative effort of two or three or more states would be preferable, we would certainly consider that as a desirable option. 2. We will be concerned that the program you envision be built on the basis of these FCL materials, modified as appropriate to your state, to your communities, to your organizational structure, to your personalities and other appropriate factors. Basically, however, you should draw upon this rich reservoir of material based upon the experiences of many people in these six-state experimental efforts. 3. We will be concerned that you incorporate the essential components of the Family Community Leadership program. Those are on page 4.8 of the FCL Handbook and remember there are eight of them. In your own state you might want to modify some of them, and we wouldn't be concerned about that because experiences and materials of this sort do need to be adapted as well as adopted. However, we would expect each component to be thoughtfully addressed because each of them deals with a very significant element of the FCL format. 4. In the judgment of the program committee, one of the major needs for funding is for the expenses of volunteers, so we would be looking at the details of the budget to see how you address that need. 5. The Foundation will consider grants of up to $50,000 per state, probably spread over a two- or three-year period, based again upon your own program planning. �8 6. All of the t eams that request planning grants will be provided information regarding the guid elines for requesting further support. If and when you and your st ate team, with the assistance of a planning grant, come up with plans that you wish to have us consider, we will be anxious to hear from you. 1ve think this experiment in six st ates has been exciting, and we hope you will have opportunity to adopt and adapt -- do something in your respective st ates. We will be anx i ous to be helpful in bringing that about. In closing, I remind you that in our judgment only people are important. Sometimes as we look at all of the issues confront ing society we are almost overwhelmed by the future, by uncertainties, complexities, and challenges. Whenever I let myself get into that frame of mind as we look at all the options a va i l a bl e to the Foundation, I like to remind myself of a few lines that I l earned way back when. You may be famili ar with them: "I am only one, but I am one; I can't do everything, but I can do something; \fuat I c an do, I ought to do; And what I ou ght t o do, by the grac e of God, I will do." With reference to FeL, the potential is great, the time is right, it's future is you : 874c 11/5/86 We wish you Gods peed. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1986-09-26_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech at the Family Community Leadership Workshop Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 26, 1986 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the Family Community Leadership Workshop. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-09-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a462023aab33772a74a46b4e99beedd5.pdf d3d264fa4e11b624c1ddaeb5d8034505 PDF Text Text THE MI CHI GAN BI OTECHNOLOGY INSTI TUTE Remarks by Dr. Russell G. Mawby Cha i r man and Chief Executive Officer W. K. Kell ogg Foundation September 27, 1984/Lansing, MI Governor Blanchard, Mr. We i 1, Dr. Zeikus, memb e r s of the MBI Board of Direc t ors, media repres entatives, ladies and ge ntlemen Michigan, in recent years, has been sgre '¥- c ha 11e nge d by a series of difficult economic circumstances. Now we are emerging from those troubled time s and we see all around us the evidence of the human spirit's invincibility. People are addr essing the needs of our communities and our state with determination, skill" and ne~~~:C~ e sacrifice. The enthusiasm and commitment of people from Sault Ste. Marie to Battle Creek, from Muske gon to Port Huron, fr om Copper Harbor to Detroit to restore MichIgan as one of the nation's flagship states is, i n my e s t ima t i o n.-m &£-e ~an r emarkab l e ; is it awe - insp iring. ~ I f. yo e ~o can't keep a good state down! pa raphrase an old adage: You just John Gardner's words appropriately describ eA' such s p i r it when he w't"o t e : "We are not at our best perched at the summit; we are c l i mbers, at our best when the way is steep." ~~~~~ ~~~ r~~~~ ~a&~ ~~la t --. v a l uab l e lesson learned ~ is one that gives suffic i ent wisdom to avoid other pitfalls. Part of the new Michigan we a r e seeing is a mor e economically diversi fied �p r o f i l e . on e wh i ch c a p i t a l i z e son t h ev e r yb e s to fi t sn a t i v e r e s o u r c e s . And t h a ti st h efund am en t a lpoi n to f my r em a rk st h i s m o rn ing . i me l yexamp l ew i t h i nt h i sd i v e r s i f i e dp r o f i l ei st h e At ~~ b i o t e c h n o l o g yi n d u s t r y . I nt h i s A e n te r p r i s eM ich ig an i sr i c hi n r e s o u r c e se s s e n t i a lt os u c c e s s f u ld ev e lopm en t . Th e s er e s o u r c e s i n c l u d e : ~ a ~ v i b r a n t an dd i v ers ef a rm a g r i b u s i n e s ss e c t o r , e x c e l l e n ti n d u s t r i a lp r o d u c t i o nc a p a c i t y , _a g e n e r o u sw a t e rs u p p l y . - m o re t h a n1 7 . 5m i l l i o na c r e so f comm e r c i a lf o r e s t l a n d . - _an abund an t sk edwo rk f o r c e . and -aw e l ld e v e l o p e dt r a n s p o r t a t i o ns y s t em . O fe q u a l im p o r t a n c e .w eh av e an im p r e s s i v enumb e ro fs u p e r b c o l l e g e sand u n i v e r s i t i e s . in l in . ~i i an S t a t eU n i v e r s i t y and t h eU n i v e r s i t yo fM i ch ig an -twowo r ldc l a s si n s t i t u t i o n s .both w i t ho u t st a n d i n gr e s e a r c ht a l e n t . Ou r c o l l e g e sand u n i v e r s i t i e sc an i n deed h e l pt oe n s u r er e a lp r o g r e s si ns om any im p o r t a n tf i e l d so f dev e l o p m en t . A l lo ft h i si sM i c h i g a n ' s . a sw e l la sc r u c i a la c c e s s t ob i o t e c h n o l o g ym a r k e t s and v e n t u r ec a p i t a l . Th eM i ch ig an B i o t e c h n o l o g yI n s t i t u t e t h eM B I. l o c a t e di n E a s tL an s ing --w i l ll i n ku n i v e r si t yr e s e a r c hw i t ha p p l i c a t i o n so f b i o t e c h n o l o g yt oexp and ou rf o r e s tand a g r i c u l t u r a li n d u s t r i e s . c r e a t ej o b s .and f u r t h e rimp rov et h es t a t e ' se conom i cs i t u a t i o n . Tho s ep r o g r e s s i v es t e p sw i l l imp rov el i f ef o rM i c h i g a n ' s p e o p l e . 2 �Th e M B Ir e p r e s e n t sa p o o l i n go fr e s o u r c e s i n s t i t u t i o n a l n a t u r a l , hum an , and i tr e p r e s e n t so p p o r t uni t y . Fo rt h e s er e a s o n s , t ~~~~~ ~-~ ~ &eee -~ t h eW . K . K e llogg Found at i o nh a ss u p p o r t e dt h eI n s t i t u t eand i t sp o t e n t i a lf o rh e l p i n g t or e v i t a l i z eou rs t a t e . I n i t i a le~ ea gf l @ I ts s u p p o r tc am ei n Augu s t 1982 ,i nt h e fo rm & fa $150 ,000 g r a n tt ol a u n c hcomp r eh en s iv e p l a n n i n g and t oem p l o ys t a f fn e c e s s a r yt od e v e l o pt h eI n s t i t u t e ' s s p e c i a lr a n g eo ft e c h n o l o g i e s-t e c h n o l o g i e swh i ch c an l e a dt o p r a c t i c a land p r o f i t a b l ea p p l i c a t i o n si nt h efoodp r o c e s s i n g i n d u s t r y ,p h a rm a c e u t i c a l s , andb a s i ca g r i c u l t u r a lp r o d u c t i o n . I ti sa p p r o p r i a t et h a tt h eK e l logg F o u n d a t i o n cho s et ob e i n v o l v e di nt h i se x c i t i n gv e n t u r e . Th en am eK e l logg i sp r o u d l y l i n k e dw i t hM i ch ig an . C r e a t e di n1930 by t h em an who s en am ei s synonomou sw i t ht h er e a d y t o e a tc e re a li n d u s t r y ,t h eW . K . K e l logg F o u n d a t i o ni sM i ch ig anb o r nandM i ch ig anb a s e d . ~ Th es o l i d ,s t e ady g row thwh i ch h a s mov ed t h eF o u n d a t i o nf rom i t so r i g i n a l $45 m i l l i o n endowm en tt oi t sc u r r e n ta s s e t so f mo r e t h a n$1 b i l l i o ni st h er e s u l to ft h ee n t r e p re n e u r i a ls u c c e s so f p r i v a t eb u s i n e s s e s ,m a ny o f th emh e a d q u a r t e r e di nM i ch ig an . I nt h eF o u n d a t i o n ' s 54y e a rh i s t o r y ,i t h a sm ad e g r a n t s e x c e e d i n g $768 m i l l i o n t oh e l ps o l v es o c i e t a lp rob l em si nt h ea r e a s o fh e a l t h ,a g r i c u l t u r e , and e d u c a t i o n ;f u l l y$125 m i l l i o no ft h a t amoun th a ss u p p o r t e dp r o g ram s and p r o j e c t si nM i ch ig an . I nr e v i ew i n gt h o s ef i g u r e sI amr em ind edo fwh a tW . K . l l o g gw r o t e i nh i sj o u r n a li n1909 : " I fI ams u c c e s s f u li n Ke 3 �g e tt i n go u to fd e b t and b e com ep r o s p e r o u si nmy b u s i n e s sa f f a i r s ,I e x p e c tt om ak e good u s eo f anyw e a l t ht h a tm aycom e t om e . " Som e sl a t e rh e added : " I th a s beenmu ch e a s i e rt om ak e mon ey t h a n year t oknowhow t osp end i t w ise ly ." H i s t o r y vou ch e st h a tM r . K e l logg w a s s u c c e s s f u lb o t ha t making mon eyand a tm ak ing w i s eu s eo fi t . Th es t ew a r d so fh i s F o u n d a t i o n ' sa s s e t sh av eh ad , and c o n ti n u et oh a v e , ac o n s t a n tand \ ~ r ew a r d i n gc h a l l e n g et odo l i k ew i s e . - ---- Ov e r thep a st y e a r ,M B I h a sm ad e e x c e l l e n tp r o g r e s si n s t r u c t u r i n gan o r g a n i z at i o nand d e v e l o p i n g a fo cu sf o rr e s e a r c h , tr a i n i n g ,and e d u c a t i ona lp r o g ram s . I th a sc l a r i f i e dr e l a t i o n s h i p s b e tw e en i t s e l fand edu c at i o n a li n s t i t u t i o n son on eh and , and i n d u s t r yand u s e r s on t h eo t h e r. F u r t h e r ,i t e s t a b l i s h e dan ope ra t i o na lp o l i c yb ased on a l l o c a t i n g60 p e r c e n to fi t sr e s o u r c e s t or e s e a r c hand d e v e lopm en t , and 40 .pe rcen tt os t r e n g t h e n i n gt h e t r a i n i n gand e d u c a t i o n a lp r ogr am sw i t h i nu n i v e r s i t i e s . T h i si sa s o l i dc om b i n a t i o no fe f f o r t st h a tc ana c c r u el a s t i n gb e n e f i t sf o r o u rs t a t e . M B I's y e a r l o n gp r o g r e s si sh i g h l ya s s u r i n g . A sa r e s u l t , t h eK e l logg Founda tion 's Bo a rd r e a f f i rm si t scomm i tm en tt o d a yt ot h e v a l u e and p u r p o s eo ft h eB i o t e c h n o l o g yI n s t i t u t et h r o u g ha f o u r y e ar ,$10 m illion g r a n tt oMB l t oc a r r yfo rw a rdi t so b j e c t i v e s . ~~ l e e o fa d d i t i o n a lK e l logg Found a ti o nfund sf o rf u r t he r s t a g e so fM B l's p rog r am sw i l lb ed e c i d e da f t e rt h ec u r r e n two rk i s eva lua ted ,b u tw ea r eh i g h l yo p tim i s t i c . 4 �We believe that the fiscal support that the Foundation is giving to the Michigan Biotechnology Institute is evidence of wise stewardship of our financial resources. We trust that it will help. in its own way. Mi c h i ga n ' s leaders to be wise stewards of the abundant natural. human. and instit itional resources with which this state has been so generous lyeI+C:1 82li; c d ~ 5 t-eJ.:Je-d.....- � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1984-09-27_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, The Michigan Biotechnology Institute Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 27, 1984 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation on the Michigan Biotechnology Institute. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984-09-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e423391a157305b62e00d26a974782bb.pdf 96b919da83ebd0aff2193d90f6b42fc9 PDF Text Text ac -1- Dedication Ceremony Wildlife Education Center Binder Park Zoo September 28, 1982 Russell G. Mawby, Chairman of the Board W. K. Kellogg Foundation I am delighted to be here as the Binder Park Zoo takes another major step in its development for our community. The Zoo has had a remarkable record of success in the past four years -- often ~n the face of adverse economic, general and weather conditions. operati~g, The Zoo is an impressive example of community self-initiative and achievement; whereby a group of citizens recognized a community need and then organized to plan, fund, and carry out zoo activities, and without reliance on tax or governmental money. Today volunteers from throughout the area serve as members of the Zoo's Board of Directors; are helping to physically build and maintain the Zoo; a n d are serving as docents -- or volunte~~ �a c2 - t e a c h e r s-t om ak e p o s s i b l ea g r e a t l ye x p a n d e d Zoo e d u c a t i o n a l o u t r e a c hp r o g r am . A s w e d e d i c a t et h i s ,t h eZ o o ' sf i r s tp e rm a n e n tb u i l d i n g ,i t i s im p o r t a n tt on o t et h a tn e a r l y3 0 0a r e af am i l i e sa r ea c t i v e c o n t r i b u t o r st o ,and p a r t i c i p a n t si n ,Zoo a c t i v i t i e st h r o u g h t h e i ra n n u a lm em b e r s h i p s ; t os a yn o t h i n go ft h et h o u s a n d so f o t h e ra r e ac i t i z e n swho r e g u l a r l yv i s i tt h eZoo . I th a sb e e n t h e s ei n d i v i d u a l s ,a l o n gw i t hc o n t r i b u t i o n sf romp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s i no u rc omm u n i t y and s u c hc i v i cl e a d e r sa sB e u l a hK e n d a l l , Bob M i l l e r , a n dt h eK e l t hS c h r o d e rf am i l ywho h a v em ad e t h i sd a y p o s s i b l e . On e o ft h ep r im a r ys t r e n g t h so ft h eZoo ~ and r e a s o n sf o ri t s b r o a d b a s e d commun i ty s u p p o r t-h a sb e e ni t sem p h a s i so n e d u c a t i o n a lp r o g r am sf o rc h i l d r e n . W . K . K e l l o g g , t h ef o u n d e r o ft h eK e l l o g gF o u n d a t i o n ,w a s f o n do fs a y i n gt h a t" e d u c a t i o n o f f e r st h eg r e a t e s to p p o r t u n i t yf o rr e a l l yim p r o v i n go n e �ac -3- generation over another." Many of the Foundation's grantmaking efforts over the years have reflected that commitment and belief regarding the importance of education in our society. That has been the Foundation's goal in providing financial support for the Zoo. That has also been the Foundation's goal ln regard to a grant which I am pleased to announce this evening namely, a new $60,000 grant by the Kellogg Foundation to help the Binder Park Zoo construct a separate animal care facility immediately to the west of this education center. These Foundation funds will augment the already considerable financial support pledged by the General Foods Corporation for completion of the animal care center. The Center will feature special space and equipment needed to develop and serve major exotic animal exhibits -- which are key to the next phase of the Zoo's development. Yet, ln a more direct way, the Wildlife Education Center we dedicate this evening has been described as the true "heart" of all Zoo operations because it houses cl assrooms and meeting �ac -4- space, offices, kitchen, and animal care area. I take that to mean the heart of the Zoo in an educational sense. For the Center makes possible a further broadening of Zoo educational programs for area youth and citizens. The challenge for the Binder Park Zoo will be to use this Wildlife Education Center to enhance both outreach and in-zoo programs. More than 19,200 people were served by Zoo outreach activities last year, as well as by the Zoomobile field days and "Living Textbook" programs at schools throughout the community. More than 15,000 additional youngsters participated in the educational programs and festivals offered right here at the Zoo. I believe the key to Binder Park Zoo's promising future will be its continued emphasis on quality educational programs, and equally important, voluntary support and citizen involvement within its 25-mile, 800,000 population service area . �ac -5- The Kellogg Foundation has been pleased to be a partner in helping to launch the Binder Park Zoo. We are proud of the Zoo's growing reputation nationally for outstanding educational programs. We are equally proud, and confident, that the Zoo will build upon that record of service and achievement in the years ahead. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1982-09-28_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech at the Wildlife Education Center Dedication Ceremony Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 28, 1982 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the dedication ceremony for the Wildlife Education Center. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-09-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97507b46a0ac405a11aaadce680a4e8d.pdf 3b94b4baff8cdf8c1dcbfc4b329688ab PDF Text Text RGM's Remarks (Welcome/Introduction, Panel, and Closing) for September 28, 1989, Michigan Educators,~~Qnfeye ce, "Education in Philanthropy and Volunteerism" ' ./ at Kellogg Center, MSU 111N • STATEWIDE EDUCATORS' CONFERENCE • ~ \. ~-&- .~ THANK YOU JOHN, AND WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU. liT IS APPROPRIATE THAT WE SHOULD BE MEETING TODAY IN THE NATION'S FIRST UNIVERSITY BUILDING CONSTRUCTED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTINUING EDUCATION, FOR THAT IS ONE OF THE QUESTIONS WE WILL CONSIDER TODAY AS WE PLACE THE SPOTLIGHT ON PHILANTHROPY, VOLUNTEERISM, AND NONPROFIT INITIATI ~ I WANT TO THANK THE IMPROVING PHILANTHROPY COMMITTEE OF THE COUNCIL OF MICHIGAN FOUNDATIONS FOR THEIR HARD WORK IN PLANNING AND IMPLEMENTING THIS CONFERENCE. THE REPORT THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED: "PHILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEERISM: STATE AND NATIONAL TRENDS AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR MICHIGAN" DEFINES THE SCOPE OF THE NONPROFIT SECTOR AND ITS IMPORTANCE IN ALL OUR LIVES. I WON'T COMMENT FURTHER ON THE REPORT, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO REINFORCE ITS STRESS ON THE IMPORTANCE OF THE SECTOR BY SHARING WITH YOU A COUPLE OF STATISTICS UNCOVERED BY PETER DRUCKER, THE NOTED MANAGEMENT CONSULTANT, DURING HIS STUDY OF NONPROFIT ORGANIZATIONS. FIRST, ALL --.-. CITY PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM HAD A BUDGET OF $5.9 BILLION IN 1988. THIS IS LARGER THAN THE BUDGET OF GENERAL MILLS, AND NEARLY TWICE THAT OF APPLE COMPUTER. ;r~ TIME PERMITTED, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER EXCELLENT EXAMPLE S IN THI S SEC TOR THAT DESERVE MENTION ... NOR IS THERE / ~ TIME TO FU LLY DI SCUSS THE SEC TOR'S IMPACT UPON THE CHARAC TER AND THE ' / . QUALITY jOF LIFE AT THE COMMUNITY LEV~ I TH 2.-~.~!0~ ..l".l.~~ _~~ ~ /; HAT THE SECTOR IS LARGER AND MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN MOST REALIZE. / IT WAS I }. I =':. \ v- ' ' ,..s>-~ ~-<.L, .~ _..1: _ J tf.-t. ~. ~~.~. j_~~ '1- ~ _~t.. ' ,,,;,9. 0 ~~ t..\ \',-",",. b'. . .. ~!\. . ~ ~ '¥" ~'(.... . .AA • : .iI. fi'. ""'<A.A;;'" ...... _.... \~- _.~~ I ... I 0...- ......\, . �, . ~ .\ ~ .~ . ~ c rr~~ 2 / /~ , ' I -~-\ W ITH TH IS CONV ICT ION THAT THE CMF BOARD ,)N1986 , REATED THE IMPROV ING PH ILANTHROPY COMM ITTEE . OUR ~ HAR E / WAS TO EXAM INE THE ~o . CURRENT STATUS OF PH ILANTHROPY IN THE/STATEOF M ICH IGAN ,v IDENT IFY / AREAS IN WH ICH WE COULD DO ETTER ~ AN TO RECOMMEND STEPS FOR IMPROVEMENT . WE QU ICKLY FOCUSED/ONTHE SUB JECT OF EDUCAT ION IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLU t \ ITEER ISM .j ; ;ANUMBER OF PEOPLE HAD OP IN IONS ABOUT THE STATUS OF EDUCAT ION IN THESE AREAS IN M ICH IGAN -BUT NO ONE HAD ANY HARD DATA . THEREFORE , THE COMM ITTEE CONDUCTED THREE SURVEYS IN ORDER TO SECURE THE INFORMAT ION THAT WAS LACK ING . - - -_ . -" . THE F IRST SURVEY WAS SENT TO EVERY-T~( j.l UN IVERS ITY IN M ICH IGAN . ~- ~ E r t - C;~ --~-~ fl2.~ ;~'E s R D ISCOVERED THAT THER ~ ' J__ • - .-------_.-' f·. COLLEGE AND ER~ NO FORMAL ~ ~ ~ . DEGREE PROGRAMS IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEERISM IN THE STATE , BUT THAT SEVERAL INST ITUT IONSOFFERED COURSES OR EXPER IENT IAL EDUCAT ION IN THESE AREAS . SEVERAL OF YOU IND ICATED TO US THAT YOU HAVE FACULTY AND STAFF THAT WERE INTERESTED IN THESE TOP ICS , AND IN MANY CASES YOUR STAFF HAVE ORGAN IZED VOLUNTEER ACT IV IT IES OUTS IDE OF THE SCHOOL 'S FORMAL CURR ICULUM . THE SECOND SURVEY WENT TO THE CMF MEMBERSH IP , WH ICH THEN STOOD AT 2 20 (WE NOW HAVE 2S ] ~ MEMBERS ) . ITSRESULTS CONF IRMED OUR BEL IEF THAT THERE WAS W IDESPREAD INTEREST IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEER ISM AMONG M ICH IGAN 'S FOUNDAT IONS AND CORPORATE G IV ING PROGRAMS . A SUBSTANT IAL NUMBER WERE ALREADY MAK ING GRANTS IN THESE AREAS,AND ASO L IDMA JOR ITY IND ICATED INTEREST IN LEARN ING MORE ON THESE SUB JECTS . �~ ~ I'- , ~~ A I ' p . . . / "'- ~ . (""~ . - ,Y / j / v THE TH IRD SURVEY TARGE1ED A SELECTED GROUP OF NONPROF ITS ACROSS THE I STATE . THEY TOLD US THAT EDUCAT ION IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEER ISM WAS A DEF IN ITE NEED/ANDTHEY WERE W ILL ING TO CONTR IBUTE SOME OF THE COSTS FOR THE IR EMPLOYEES . FURTHER , THE IR NEEDS RANGED OVER A W IDE VAR IETY OF TOP ICS , FROM BOARDSMANSH IP TO PERSONNEL TO VOLUNTEER MANAGEMENT TO STRATEG IC PLANN ING . G IVEN THE FACT THAT THE PROV IDERS NEED THE EDUCAT ION , AND THE COLLEGES AND UN IVERS IT IES ARE INDEED CAPABLE OF PROV ID ING IT , OUR MOST EFFECT IVE ROLE AS FUNDERS APPEARS TO BE THAT OF FAC IL ITATORS . IN THAT SP IR IT WE HAVE ORGAN IZED TH IS CONFERENCE . WE HAVE NO PRECONCE IVED AGENDA , ~ \j ~"PLAN ~ OF ACT " ~---. ON .I ' - .A-~ ~ l • - ~ \f-" ' .."" WE HAVE BROUGHT TOGETHER SOME OF THE LEAD ING NAT IONAL EXPERTS ON PH ILANTHROPY , VOLUNTEER ISM , AND NONPROF IT IN IT IAT IVETO LEAD OUR D ISCUSS IONS . WHETHER TH IS LEADS TO ANYTH ING ELSE ISENT IRELY UP TO v ;__ u y.~~ . _ ~ ~l. oc..-~""'~ ~ . .~~_ _ . 4 . OUR KEYNOTE SPEAKER IS AD IST INGU ISHED PROFESS IONAL WHO HAS SPENT H IS \ ,,~ ENT IRE L IFE WORK ING IN , A® F IGHT ING FOR , THE NONPROF IT SECTOR . HE BEGAN H IS CAREER AS ACOMMUN ITY ORGAN IZER FOR ASCHOOL AND REHAB IL ITAT ION CENTER FOR HAND ICAPPED CH ILDREN . FROM 1 954 TO 1966 , HE WORKED FOR THE AMER ICAN HEART ASSOC IAT ION , THEN SPENT THE NEXT 1 2 �4 YEARS AS THE NAT IONAL D IRECTOR OF THE MENTAL HEALTH ASSOC IAT ION . BR IAN THEN SPENT TWO YEARS AS THE CEO OF TWO ORGAN IZAT IONS : THE NAT IONAL COUNC IL ON PH ILANTHROPY AND THE COAL IT ION OF NAT IONAL IN 1 980 HE OVERSAW AMERGER OF THE TWO AS VOLUNTARY ORGAN IZAT IONS . INDEPENDENT SECTOR , AND HAS G IVEN ADECADE OF SERV ICE AS .r~ FOUND ING ~ PRES IDENT . UNDER BR IAN 'S HAS BECOME THE COUNTRY 'S LEAD ING ADVOCATE LEA ER HIP ~ FOR THE NAT IONAL TRAD IT IONS OF G IV ING AND VOLUNTEER ING . ,1 5 ) ISMADE UP OF 650 FOUNDAT IONS , CORPORAT IONS , AND NAT IONAL VOLUNTARY ORGAN IZAT IONS THAT WORK TOGETHER TO GENERATE NEW RESEARCH ON THE SECTOR , ENCOURAGE THE IMPROVEMENT OF NONPROF IT LEADERSH IP AND MANAGEMENT , CREATE MUTUALLY SUPPORT IVE RELAT IONSH IPS BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND VOLUNTARY ORGAN IZAT IONS , AND EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT THE SECTOR . BR IAN ISTHE AUTHOR OF SEVERAL BOOKS , INCLUD INGAMER ICA 'S VOLUNTARY ~ SP IR IT , PH ILANTHROPY IN ACT ION , ~ VOLUNTEERS IN ACT ION . HE ISALSO A VOLUNTEER H IMSELF , SERV ING ON NUMEROUS BOARDS AND COMM ISS IONS . / LAD IES AND GENTLEMEN , IG IVE YOU BR IAN O 'CONNELL . / J JO /RG / ~ \ l~ r ~ V ~ . ~ N.. 1 '0. L2.....~_..-. ~ ~ . :~~ I I _ _ , W"weoo- ,..,..~ r • , . . . . . . ,I r ' _. . . . . ~ ' " f 1 ~ \ . . . I , , 4 . f " ' ..f1.,A . S t \ . ~l ~ . • ~~~' ~ - I ~cn- - . ' . _ ~ r . . -"_ . . ~- , . . . . . . . . . . . . . - �.: .~-'S/ I I ~ /"6' ~- ~; ~ c ' ~ / / J , I ' ., I / / J l ~ I Q f I f ( r ~ . , �SUB JECT : BR IEF INTRODUCT IONS FOR SEPTEMBER 28 PANEL ISTS DELWYN DYER ISPROFESSOR AND D IRECTOR , CENTER FOR VOLUNTEER DEVELOPMENT , EXTENS ION D IV IS ION , V IRG IN IA POLYTECHN IC INST ITUTEAND STATE UN IVERS ITY , IN BLACKSBURG , V IRG IN IA . tA- ~e- ~ EL ~EARNE A PH .D . IN SOC IOLOGY AND ANTHROPOLOGY FROM M ICH IGAN STATE UN IVERS ITY , AND WAS FORMERLY A PROGRAM LEADER , 4 -H PROGRAMS , HERE AT MSU ..DEL ISALSO THE PAST PRES IDENT OF THE ASSOC IAT ION OF VOLUNTARY ACT ION SCHOLARS . V IRG IN IA HODGK INSON ISV ICE PRES IDENT , RESEARCH , INDEPENDENT SECTOR , ~ . AND EXECUT IVE D IRECTOR OF THE NAT IONAL CENTER FOR CHAR ITABLE ~ STAT IST ICS . SHE EARNED APH .D . IN H IGHER EDUCAT ION FROM SOUTHERN ILL INO ISUN IVERS ITY . SHE HAS AUTHORED MORE THAN 2 0BOOKS AND ART ICLES ON PH ILANTHROPY , VOLUNTEER ISM , AND THE NONPROF IT SECTOR , INCLUD ING G IV ING AND VOLUNTEER ING IN THE UN ITED STATES : A NAT IONAL SURVEY AND D IMENS IONS OF THE INDEPENDENTSECTOR : ASTAT IST ICAL ~ V- ~ PROF ILE . HER LEADERSH IP IN THE STUDY OF NONPROF ITS HAS CAUSED MER ~ ~ ~ E 4. .-J AS THE "NONPROF IT P IED P IPER . " KATHLEEN MCCARTHY ISPROFESSOR AND D IRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF PH ILANTHROPY AT THE C ITY UN IVERS ITY OF NEW YORK . SHE EARNED APH .D . IN H ISTORY FROM THE UN IVERS ITY OF CH ICAGO . SHE IS THE AUTHOR OF NUMEROUS BOOKS AND ART ICLES ON THE SUB JECT OF NAT IONAL AND INTERNAT IONAL PH ILANTHROPY . A FORMER EMPLOYEE OF THE ROCKEFELLER FOUNDAT ION , SHE ISTHE FOUNDER OF THE INTERNAT IONAL FELLOWS PROGRAM , WH ICH BR INGS YOUNG LEADERS FROM FORE IGN NAT IONS TO AMER ICA TO LEARN ABOUT AMER ICAN PH ILANTHROPY . ~ ~\; ~ . . . . . ~~~ t~~-.. ~~ ~ ~ .e ...Q.... ' I-~ ~ ~ Yt-<.. . . . : , . . ( ( . ...,J};. . . .PLu . ..~....-~. ~ t ~ ~ e . . . f 4 ¥+ £ ~~--- ..Qt"'~ t t -~cr- " " ~~ Q -J ). . . . . . . . . .~--...... ~.~~ ~ 2~ . ~_ . . ~ ~ ..o... .. l $ ' . �~~.~. E2.~-. .. ~ 4 ~;~ - - A -~" ~ . . .- ~~ ~ DUANE BEAUCHAMP ISTHE D IRECTOR OF H ILLSDALE COLLEGE 'S GREAT OPPORTUN IT IES FOR ASS ISTANCE AND LEADERSH IP (GOAL ) PRO JECT . TH IS IS A STUDENT VOLUNTEER ISM AND LEADERSH IP PROGRAM FUNDED BY THE W . K . KELLOGG FOUNDAT ION . ~N E AMASTERS IN D IV IN ITY FROM NASHOTAH HOUSE SEM INARY IN W ISCONS IN . ~ BEAUC I IA t i lP ~ SERVED THE EP ISCOPAL CHURCH OF THE U .S .A . IN ADM IN ISTRAT IVE CAPAC IT IES . HE THEN SERVED AS THE RES IDENT CONSULTANT FOR THE COMMUN ITY SERV ICE BUREAU OF DALLAS , TEXAS , SPEC IAL IZ ING IN FUND -RA IS ING FOR PROGRAMS FOR THE DEVELOPMENTALLY D ISABLED . ~ILL s ~ J JO /RG I I IN r~ '~ ~ ~-AH Et AM ,t9 38 . r5Sl:JMEB -I+ I -5 t tR "R'E N T C . ' . . e :a . . . " . . �2 GEORGE ROCHE HAS BEEN PRES IDENT OF H ILLSDALE COLLEGE S INCE 1 9 7 1 . MA~ APRINCIPLE OF REFUSING TO ORM~HU MAINTAINING COMPLETE / UNDER H IS LEADERSH IP ,H ILLSDALE HAS ACCEPT GOVERNMENf"MONEY IN ANY , INDEPENDENCE FROM GOVERNMENTA) /CONTROL . DR . ROCHE EARNED A PH .D . IN H ISTORY FROM THE UNIVER I ~ COLORADO . HE ISTHE AUTHOR OF TEN BOOKS , RANG ING FROM EDUeAT ION" INAMER ICA TO A NOVEL , COM ING HOME_. / HE IS ALSO THE FOUNDER OF TWO FORUMS FOR D IALOGUE ON THE SUB JECTS OF IND IV IDUAL LI / ER ~ , / L IM ITED GOVERNMENT , AND FREE ENTERPR ISE , THE CENTER FOR CONSTRUCT IVE ALTERNAT IVES , AND THE SHAVANO INST ITUTE FOR NAT IONAL LEADERSH IP . ~ IRECTOR OF THE COMMUN ITY SERV HENRY RUB IN ISTHE D ICE MANAGEMENT CERT IF ICATE PROGRAM AT ROOSEVELT UN IVERS ITY . HE EARNED A PH .D . IN ~ EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION FROM NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY. DR . RUB IN ISTHE AUTHOR OF NUMEROUS BOOKS AND ART ICLES ON NONPROF IT ADM IN ISTRAT ION AND ETH ICS . HE CO -CHA IRS THE CLAR ION CONFERENCE FOR THE D ISC IPL INE OF NONPROF IT ADM IN ISTRAT ION . J JO /RG �:J- ~-l o~ o .~ _ i I t ...Q-~ _ .L ~ »' . - . _~ ,< : . �tv .J (;) .c: QUESTIONS FOR PANEL The first question is the "so what" question. Why is it important to study volunteerism and philanthropy? How do such studies fit into the traditional mission of the university -- teaching, research and public service? Does it make sense to teach philanthropy and volunteerism as a discrete course, or should its concepts be broadly integrated across the curriculum? How can we interest the faculty in these subjects, and get them involved in teaching these areas? Is it possible to gain the faculty's commitment without changing the university's reward system? What are the best examples of programs for the study of philanthropy and volunteerism? Should we attempt to build a standardized curriculum, or should we "let a thousand flowers bloom?" Is there a logical departmental home for the study of philanthropy and volunteerism? 9. .- Should training in philanthropy and volunteerism be vocational? To what extent should education in philanthropy and volunteerism employ experiential techniques? Is "required volunteerism" a contradiction in terms? What is the biggest impediment in the way of developing programs? What are the l;adin g professional organizati9ns in this field? Where are the gaps in the knowledge base? What are the opportunities for publication in these fields? Have you encountered any internal institutional resistance? (~ \V G Is there real demand for such a program among the students? If so, is it strongest among undergraduates, graduate§1/ students, or continuing education students? What are the future opportunities in these fields? JJO!rgl086N:45 �CLOS ING REMARKS STATEW IDE EDUCATORS ' CONFERENCE THE "EDUCAT ION IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEER ISM " CONFERENCE ISNOW DRAW ING TO A CLOSE , AND ITH INK ITHAS BEEN A VERY PRODUCT IVE DAY . WE OWE AGREAT DEBT OF THANKS TO BR IAN O 'CONNELL , WHO PROV IDED ACLEAR OVERV IEW OF THE IMPORTANCE AND THE STATE OF THE SECTOR , AND ABLY LAUNCHED US IN THE R IGHT D IRECT ION . OUR F IVE PANEL ISTS , DELWYN DYER , V IRG IN IA HODGK INSON , KATHLEEN MCCARTHY , ' "1 )" ' -. - E-eR~HE, AND HENRY RUB IN , GENEROUSLY SHARED THE IR STORE OF EXPER IENCE REGARD ING THEORY AND PRACT ICE IN THE F IELD . MOREOVER , THE IR PART IC IPAT ION IN THE D ISCUSS IONS TH IS AFTERNOON LED TO MANY PRODUCT IVE INTERCHANGES AND A H IGH LEVEL OF D IALOGUE . AND THANKS TO YOU FOR TAK ING THE T IME TO ATTEND , AND PUTT ING SO MUCH THOUGHT INTO YOUR QUEST IONS AND PART IC IPAT ION . NOW , THE NATURAL QUEST ION IS"WHAT ABOUT NEXT STEPS ? " AS ISA ID AT THE BEG INN ING OF THE CONFERENCE , THE MEMBERSH IP OF THE COUNC IL OF M ICH IGAN FOUNDAT IONS HAS NO PRECONCE IVED AGENDA OR A PLAN OF ACT ION . WE DO NOT INTEND T OI S S UEA REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS . TH IS DOES NOT MEAN _ . . _ ...~ . . _.~_. ---------,-- . THAT WE..-HAVE SU_ D E N Y_ _ LOSL INTEREST IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEER ISM. .D ,_ . . . .L ITDOES MEAN , HOWEVER , THAT THE BALL ISIN YOUR COURT . IFYOU TH INK THAT TH IS SUB JECT ISIMPORTANT , THAT ITMER ITS FURTHER REFLECT ION AND POSS IBLY ACT ION , THEN WE ARE W ILL ING TO L ISTEN TO YOUR IDEAS .~ UPO ~ -l R R.EELE- -"" -I-e YOU PLACE PH L THRO. f A lN D VOLUNTEERI~~ ON O f~-r-T ~ -IHEN WE CERTAINL ..R ~~ON. �2 AS FUNDERS, WE SEE OUR ROLE BEING THAT OF A FACILITATOR. IF YOU HAVE GOOD IDEAS ABOUT BETTER WAYS TO PROVIDE EDUCATION IN PHILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEERISM, THEN WE WANT TO HEAR THEM. NATURALLY, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT FUNDERS CANNOT GIVE A nBLANK CHECK,n BUT WE CAN GUARANTEE A FAIR HEARING. AND, IF OUR PRIORITIES MATCH, WE CAN HELP YOU TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS FASTER -- AND PERHAPS BETTER IN ANY EVENT, NEXT STEPS ARE UP TO YOU. THAN YOU COULD ON YOUR OWN. THANK YOU AGAIN FOR MAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US, AND ADD TO OUR DELIBERATIONS. JOURNEY HOME. JJO/RG HAVE A SAFE � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1989-09-28_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, Education in Philanthropy and Volunteerism Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 28, 1989 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the Statewide Educator's Conference to discuss the importance of education in philanthropy and volunteerism. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989-09-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/208a5173ff48e3604a5e91642573048d.pdf 83feced43505b89105857e25c29a5a78 PDF Text Text PAGE 1 HTHE GREATEST OPPORTUNITYH DELIVERED AT HTOWN AND GOWN H BREAKFAST UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA AT LINCOLN WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 7, 1988 DR. RUSSELL G. MAWBY CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER W. K. KELLOGG FOUNDATION THE TOPIC ON WHICH I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO COMMENT THIS MORNING IS HYOUTH IN CRISIS. H I WILL TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THAT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE FACE AND DESCRIBE SOME POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS. THESE SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED, HOWEVER, TO BE THE HOFFICIAL AGENDA H OF THE W. K. KELLOGG FOUNDATION. THE KELLOGG FOUNDATION HAS FROM ITS VERY FOUNDING HELD THE PHILOSOPHY THAT THE FOUNDATION DOES NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS TO THE PROBLEMS OF PEOPLE. RATHER, WE ARE ISSUE-ORIENTED, IDENTIFYING CERTAIN PROBLEMS WHICH SEEM TO BE OF SIGNIFICANCE TO SOCIETY. BUT WE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BE PRESCRIPTIVE, THAT IS WE DO NOT TELL PEOPLE HOW TO SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS. WE ARE ANXIOUS TO BE INVOLVED WITH THOSE WHO SHARE OUR CONCERN AND ARE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. WE WILL WORK WITH THEM TO SHARPEN AND REFINE THEIR IDEAS, BUT ULTIMATELY, SINCE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MUST DEAL WITH THEIR CONCERNS, THE ANSWERS MUST COME FROM THEM, NOT FROM US. RECENTLY IN MY READING, I CAME ACROSS A VERY STRONG COMPLAINT ABOUT YOUTH. THE YOUNG: THE WRITER HAD THIS TO SAY ABOUT �PAGE 2 "OUR YOUTH NOW LOVE LUXURY -- THEY HAVE BAD MANNERS AND CONTEMPT FOR AUTHORITY. . . . CHILDREN ARE NOW TYRANTS -- NOT THE SERVANTS OF THEIR HOUSEHOLDS. THEY CONTRADICT THEIR PARENTS . . . AND TYRANNIZE THEIR TEACHERS . . . " THIS STATEMENT SOUNDS VERY MUCH LIKE THE STUMP SPEECH OF SOMEONE RUNNING FOR OFFICE, OR THE CRY OF A DISTRESSED PARENT, OR PERHAPS THE COMPLAINT OF THE FRUSTRATED TEACHER OR SCHOOL ADMINISTRATOR. BUT THE QUOTATION IS ACTUALLY ATTRIBUTED TO SOCRATES WHO LIVED IN THE 5TH CENTURY, B.C. WE CAN SEE FROM THIS STATEMENT THAT THE CONCERN FOR YOUTH IS NOT A PHENOMENON NEW TO SOCIETY; IN FACT, VIRTUALLY EVERY GENERATION SINCE HISTORY HAS BEEN RECORDED HAS EXPRESSED GRAVE CONCERN ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THEIR YOUNG PEOPLE. BUT IT MIGHT SEEM TO US THAT WE HAVE MORE LEGITIMATE GROUNDS TO COMPLAIN THAN HAS ANY OTHER PREVIOUS GENERATION. ONE NEED ONLY POINT TO THE CONSTANT BOMBARDMENT OF ARTICLES IN THE MEDIA AND STORIES ON THE TELEVISION NEWS ABOUT SKY-ROCKETING DROPOUT RATES, DISCOURAGINGLY HIGH PERCENTAGES OF UNEMPLOYED YOUTH, A VIRTUAL EPIDEMIC OF TEEN PREGNANCY, THE FRIGHTENING AND GROWING INSTANCES OF SUBSTANCE ABUSE, THE UNPRECEDENTED LEVELS OF TEEN SUICIDE, THE INCREASING EVIDENCE OF �PAGE 3 ANTISOCIAL BEHAVIOR, THE APPALLINGLY HIGH RATES OF ILLITERACY, AND THE GENERAL LACK OF MOTIVATION AMONG OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. IT IS ESPECIALLY EASY TO BECOME DEPRESSED WHEN WE LOOK AT THE IMPACT A LACK OF OPPORTUNITY HAS HAD UPON THE YOUNG OF MINORITIES AND THE POOR. BUT THESE GRIM STATISTICS DO NOT TELL THE ENTIRE STORY. THESE SAME STATISTICS PAINT QUITE A DIFFERENT PICTURE: SIXTY PERCENT OF ALL TEENAGE GIRLS DO NOT BECOME PREGNANT. SEVENTY PERCENT OF ALL TEENAGERS DO NOT REGULARLY GET DRUNK. SIXTY PERCENT HAVE NOT REGULARLY USED MARIJUANA FOR AT LEAST A YEAR, AND 73 PERCENT OF EIGHTH GRADERS EVENTUALLY GRADUATE (AND, ACCORDING TO FIGURES RECENTLY RELEASED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, THE PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS WHO DROP OUT HAS BEEN SLOWLY FALLING OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS). LEAVING ASIDE STATISTICS FOR THE MOMENT, WE MIGHT CONSIDER OUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I WOULD WAGER THAT EVERYONE OF US KNOWS PERSONALLY OR COMES INTO CONTACT DAILY WITH DOZENS OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE ALERT, INTELLIGENT, PATRIOTIC, HONEST, HARD-WORKING, AND AMBITIOUS. ARE WE TO MAKE OF THE STATE OF TODAY'S YOUTH? SO WHAT MANY, TOO MANY, OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE HAVING SERIOUS PROBLEMS. THERE IS GROUNDS FOR CONCERN AND A NEED FOR ACTION. WE MUST NEVER FORGET THE POSITIVE ASPECTS AS WELL. BUT WE MUST NOT OVER-REACT BUT RATHER CALIBRATE OUR PROPOSED SOLUTIONS TO MEET THE TRUE DIMENSIONS OF THE PROBLEM. �PAGE 4 FROM MY VANTAGE POINT WORKING FOR A FOUNDATION THAT HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY INTERESTED IN YOUTH, I AM ABLE TO SEE LITERALLY SCORES OF SUCH PROPOSED SOLUTIONS EVERY YEAR. THE GREAT TENDENCY IN AN ERA OF SPECIALIZATION AND SPECIAL INTEREST, IS TO ADOPT A CRISIS MENTALITY TO DEAL WITH THE BITS AND PIECES OF PROBLEMS: WE HAVE ALL HEARD OF THE CRISIS OF THE ENVIRONMENT, THE CRISIS OF HEALTH CARE, THE CRISIS OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. GRANTED, THESE ARE ALL CRITICALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES ON SOCIETY'S AGENDA. BUT THEY ARE ALSO COMPLEX PROBLEMS WHICH HAVE EVOLVED OVER A LONG PERIOD. IT IS UNLIKELY THAT A SPECIFIC APPROACH OR A QUICK SOLUTION WILL BE SUFFICIENT TO SOLVE THEM. AS GRANTMAKERS, WE ARE CONFRONTED WITH MANY PROPOSALS THAT ARE VERY NARROW AND SPECIFIC. ON THE SUBJECT OF YOUTH, THESE PROPOSALS FREQUENTLY ZERO IN ON SUCH NARROW AREAS AS SUBSTANCE ABUSE, TEEN PREGNANCY, OR THE DROPOUT PROBLEM. THEY TEND NOT TO DEAL WITH THE LARGER AND MORE PERVASIVE ISSUES IN A YOUNG PERSON'S LIFE SUCH AS THE HOME AND FAMILY, THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT, EDUCATIONAL AND LEISURE-TIME OPPORTUNITIES. I AM SIMPLY SUGGESTING THAT IT IS TIME THAT WE AS A NATION LOOK MORE COMPREHENSIVELY AT YOUTH IN CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN SOCIETY. FINE. DO WE LIKE WHAT WE SEE? IF SO, THAT IS IF NOT, WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. SURELY, �PAGE 5 EVERYONE WILL AGREE THAT THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST AT RISK MUST BE HELPED. LESS OBVIOUSLY, WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE NOT TECHNICALLY AT RISK STAY OUT OF TROUBLE. WE NEED TO CHALLENGE THEM; WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR LIVES ARE TOO FULL OF INTERESTING AND EXCITING THINGS TO DO TO FIND TIME TO GET INTO TROUBLE. BEFORE. THINGS ARE DIFFERENCT TODAY THAN EVER MANY OF THE CHANGES IN SOCIETY HAVE GREAT IMPACT ON THE PROCESS OF GROWING UP. LET ME ILLUSTRATE WITH JUST FOUR ISSUES . . . ONE NEED ONLY LOOK AT THE CHANGING DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE AMERICAN FAMILY TO UNDERSTAND WHY SO MANY YOUTH TODAY ARE IN 1955, 60 PERCENT OF ALL AMERICAN HAVING PROBLEMS. FAMILIES CONSISTED OF A WORKING fATHER, A MOTHER WHO WAS A HOMEMAKER, AND TWO SCHOOL-AGE CHILDREN. By 1985, LESS THAN TWO GENERATIONS LATER, THAT NUMBER HAD SHRUNK TO SEVEN PERCENT. THE DEMOGRAPHERS TELL US THAT OUT OF EVERY 100 CHILDREN BORN TODAY, 12 ARE BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK AND 40 ARE BORN TO PARENTS WHO WILL BE DIVORCED BY THE TIME THE CHILD REACHES 18. ONE-HALF OF THESE CHILDREN WILL LIVE IN A HOME WITH THE MOTHER WORKING OUT OF THE HOUSEHOLD. WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, THESE ENORMOUS DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFTS MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE LIVES OF CHILDREN. �PAGE 6 YET IN OUR SOCIETY, WE FACE THESE MASSIVE CHANGES WITH INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE ESSENTIALLY UNCHANGED. WE NEED TO BE MORE RESPONSIVE TO THE NEW NEEDS THAT THIS NEW SOCIETY HAS BROUGHT WITH IT. LET ME BE MORE SPECIFIC AND TALK FOR A MOMENT ABOUT THE AREAS WHERE CHANGES MUST COME: 1. EARLIEST CHILDHOOD -- RESEARCH HAS REPEATEDLY DEMONSTRATED THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT TWO YEARS IN A PERSON'S LIFE ARE THE FIRST TWO. WE MUST WORK TO ENSURE THAT THE BEST QUALITY OF CARE AND NURTURING IS ACHIEVED DURING THOSE TWO CRITICAL YEARS. 2. PARENTING -- ALL PARENTS ARE AMATEURS. WE NEED TO FIND NEW WAYS TO PREPARE PARENTS FOR THIS MOST IMPORTANT RESPONSIBILITY OF THEIR LIVES. THE PROBLEM BECOMES EVEN MORE ACUTE WHEN WE CONSIDER THAT WE HAVE THE PHENOMENON OF CHILDREN HAVING CHILDREN. I WAS RECENTLY AT A MEETING WHICH CONSISTED OF GRANDMOTHERS -- ALL OF WHOM WERE BETWEEN 25 AND 30 YEARS OF AGE. THIS IS A PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT NEED WHICH MUST BE ADDRESSED SOON. 3. PRESCHOOL EDUCATIOI~ -- AGAIN, ALL THE RESEARCH IN THIS AREA SHOWS THAT SYSTEMATIC SCHOOLING SHOULD START EARLIER THAN IT NOW DOES. YET PUBLIC SCHOOLS CONTINUE TO BE INTERESTED IN CHILDREN ONLY IF THEY TURN FIVE BY DECEMBER 1. 4. LATCHKEY CHILDREN -- INCREASINGLY, WITH TWO PARENTS WORKING, CHILDREN LEAVE FROM AND COME HOME TO AN EMPTY HOUSE. SURELY THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY OF SCHEDULING THE SCHOOL DAY TO ACCOMMODATE CHANGING SOCIETAL NEEDS. 5. THE ROLE OF THE HOME AND FAMILY IN FORMAL EDUCATION -- IN THE PAST, WE HAVE BEEN CONTENT TO SEND OUR CHILDREN OFF TO SCHOOL TO BE EDUCATED AND NOT TO TAKE A VERY ACTIVE ROLE IN THAT PROCESS. BUT, IT IS BECOMING INCREASINGLY CLEAR THAT FOR EDUCATION TO TRULY HAVE IMPACT, WHAT GOES ON IN THE CLASSROOM MUST BE REINFORCED AT HOME AND VICE VERSA. WE CLEARLY NEED TO HAVE MUCH GREATER TEAMWORK IN THIS AREA THAN WE DO AT PRESENT. �PAGE 7 JUST AS THERE HAVE BEEN ENORMOUS CHANGES IN THE FAMILY, THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN TREMENDOUS CHANGES IN THE ECONOMY WHICH HAVE AFFECTED CHILDREN. WHEN I WAS A YOUNGSTER GROWING UP ON A FRUIT FARM IN SOUTHWESTERN MICHIGAN, I WAS GIVEN CHORES TO DO AT AN EARLY AGE -- NOT JUST BUSY WORK OR MAKE WORK. THESE CHORES WERE IMPORTANT TO THE LIVELIHOOD OF MY FAMILY. AT THAT TIME, CHILDREN WERE AN ECONOMIC ASSET FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE. TODAY, IN THE AFFLUENT WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE, CHILDREN ARE AN ECONOMIC LIABILITY. THEY MAY HAVE CHORES, BUT REALLY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE THAT MUCH TO THE LIVELIHOOD OF THE FAMILY. TODAY'S YOUNG PEOPLE ARE CAUGHT IN A DOUBLE BIND. THE AGE OF PUBERTY CONTINUES TO DROP EVEN AS THE TIME OF PREPARATION NEEDED TO TAKE ONE'S PLACE IN SOCIETY CONTINUES TO LENGTHEN. THE RESULT IS A PROLONGED PERIOD OF DEPENDENCY, AN EXTENDED ADOLESCENCE, IF YOU WILL. DURING THIS TIME, IT IS EASY TO BECOME BORED AND DISILLUSIONED. WE NEED TO BE FAR MORE CREATIVE THAN WE HAVE BEEN IN FINDING USEFUL AND MEANINGFUL WORK FOR THESE YOUNG PEOPLE. WE ALSO SHOULD EXPLOIT TO A MUCH GREATER DEGREE THAN WE HAVE VOLUNTEER ROLES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO TRULY MEANINGFUL AND IMPORTANT WORK, NOT FOR PAY, BUT FOR THE GOOD OF PEOPLE. CHILDREN NEED TO BE PRODUCTIVE . . . THEY NEED TO CONTRIBUTE. THEY DO NOT WISH TO ALWAYS BE THE BENEFICIARY ANYMORE THAN DO RESPONSIBLE ADULTS. �PAGE 8 I HAVE COMMENTED ON SOME OF THE SWEEPING CHANGES IN THE FAMILY AND IN SOCIETY. NOw LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CHANGES -- OR LACK THEREOF -- IN THE SCHOOLS. WE HAVE IN OUR NATION'S SCHOOLS AN ESSENTIALLY AGRARIAN MODEL THAT WAS PARTICULARLY USEFUL IN THE 19TH CENTURY, HAS BECOME INSTITUTIONALIZED IN THE 20TH, AND WILL PROBABLY ENDURE INTO THE 21ST. THE SCHOOL DAY WAS INITIALLY SET FROM 9:00 TO 4:00, WHICH MADE SENSE BECAUSE YOU HAD TO DO YOUR CHORES BEFORE YOU WENT TO SCHOOL, AND YOU HAD TO GET HOME IN TIME TO DO THEM AGAIN IN THE AFTERNOON. THE SCHOOL YEAR WAS SET TO RUN FROM LABOR DAY TO MEMORIAL DAY WHICH, OF COURSE, ALLOWED FOR THE CHILDREN TO BE HOME DURING THE BUSY SUMMER MONTHS. WHILE FEW LIVE ON FARMS TODAY, STILL HAVE PRECISELY THAT CALENDAR. WE THIS CALENDAR AND THIS TIME FRAME ASSUMED THAT THE PARENTS WERE AT HOME AS INDEED MOST OF THEM WERE AND, AS INDEED, THE MAJORITY ARE NOT TODAY. THIS ENTIRE MODEL WAS EVOLVED FOR THE NEEDS OF THE ONE-ROOM SCHOOL HOUSE. IF WE WERE TO DEVELOP THE CALENDARS AND SCHEDULES APPROPRIATE FOR TODAY, WE WOULD DEVELOP A QUITE DIFFERENT PATTERN. WE WOULD SURELY MAKE THE SCHOOL DAY LONGER TO ELIMINATE THE LATCH-KEY PROBLEM AND WORK OUT AN ARRANGEMENT WHEREBY SCHOOL WOULD BE PLANNED DIFFERENTLY THROUGH THE YEAR. THIS IS PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT SINCE STUDIES HAVE SHOWN AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT WHEN CHILDREN BEGIN SCHOOL AFTER A THREE-MONTH VACATION IT TYPICALLY TAKES THEM TWO TO THREE MONTHS TO CATCH UP TO WHERE THEY HAD BEEN. �PAGE 9 THE SCHOOL AS AN INSTITUTION NEEDS TO BECOME MUCH MORE RESPONSIVE IN VERY FUNDAMENTAL WAYS TO THE CHANGES IN THE WIDER SOCIETY. SPECIFICALLY: WE SHOULD CONSIDER A YEAR-ROUND SCHOOL YEAR. WE NEED UNIVERSAL PUBLIC PRESCHOOL EDUCATION BEGINNING AT LEAST AT AGE FOUR AND PREFERABLY AT AGE THREE. WE NEED PROVISION FOR DAY-CARE AND LATCH-KEY CHILDREN. AND WE SHOULD LOOK CAREFULLY AT THE PRIORITIES FOR ALLOCATION OF RESOURCES. AS AN ASIDE, I USED TO SERVE ON A SCHOOL BOARD, AND I ALWAYS ASKED THE ADMINISTRATORS WHY THEY FORCED US TO MAKE THE WRONG CHOICES. WHEN TIMES WERE TOUGH, WE WERE COMPELLED TO CUT RESOURCES FROM THE ELEMENTARY BUDGET TO PUT THEM INTO THE HIGH SCHOOL BUDGET SO THAT THE HIGH SCHOOL COULD RETAIN ITS ACCREDITATION. AND YET RESEARCH SHOWS CONVINCINGLY THAT THE EARLY YEARS ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT, MORE SO THAN THE LATER YEARS. WHY NOT ACCREDIT THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS -- AND LET HIGH SCHOOL GET THE RESIDUAL? SCHOOLS CANNOT DO EVERYTHING. TO ALL PEOPLE. THEY CANNOT BE ALL THINGS BUT SOCIETY'S NEEDS HAVE CHANGED SO DRASTICALLY THAT THEY MUST BECOME MORE RESPONSIVE. IT IS INSTRUCTIVE TO CONSIDER THE WAY THAT OTHER SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS HAVE CHANGED TO MEET THE DIFFERENT NEEDS OF THE POPULATION. I CAN REMEMBER A TIME WHEN BANKS WERE OPEN FROM 10:00 UNTIL 2:00. NOW, I CAN GO TO MY BANK THROUGH AUTOMATIC TELLER MACHINES AND COMPLETE TRANSACTIONS 24 HOURS A DAY, 365 DAYS A YEAR. NOW SURELY, IF BANKS CAN BECOME THAT RESPONSIVE TO THE NEEDS OF THE PUBLIC, SO CAN THE NATION'S SCHOOLS. �PAGE 10 THE FOURTH AREA OF CHANGE THAT HAS SUCH IMPACT UPON AMERICAN YOUTH, IS THE FRAGMENTATION OF THE INFLUENCE AND SERVICES THAT OUR SYSTEMS AND PROGRAMS HAVE DEVELOPED. THERE IS SIMPLY A MULTIPLICITY OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS AND ADMINISTRATIONS OUT THERE IN THE REAL WORLD, AND MANY OF THEM ARE AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER AND CERTAINLY ARE INCONSISTENT AMONG THEMSELVES. EXAMPLE. LET 'S TAKE A CONCRETE SUPPOSE THAT YOU ARE THE PREGNANT TEENAGE DAUGHTER OF AN ADC MOTHER, YOU ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY IN SCHOOL, AND GET PICKED UP FOR SHOP LIFTING. THINK OF THE NUMBERS OF ORGANIZATIONS WITH WHICH YOU WILL HAVE TO DEAL -- WITH THE SOCIAL WELFARE SYSTEM; WITH THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM; WITH OUR SYSTEM OF JUSTICE, AS DELIVERED THROUGH THE COURTS; WITH THE SCHOOLS; WITH THE STATE EMPLOYMENT OFFICES. IF YOU HAVE EVER DEALT WITH THE MEDICAID SYSTEM, YOU KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT IS EVEN FOR WELL-EDUCATED PEOPLE WITH FEW CHALLENGES TO DEAL WITH BUREAUCRACY. IMAGINE THE BEWILDERMENT THIS YOUNG PERSON, LABORING UNDER MULTIPLE DIFFICULTIES, MUST FEEL. AT THE KELLOGG FOUNDATION WE ARE TRYING TO ENCOURAGE SOME EXPERIMENTAL EFFORTS TO FURTHER THE BEST INTERESTS OF ALL OF OUR YOUNGSTERS. WE ARE PERSUADED THAT MORE EFFORT SHOULD BE MADE TO DO THE FOLLOWING: �PAGE 11 1. COMMUNITY-BASED EFFORTS -- THE PROBLEMS OF PEOPLE ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO LEAVE THEM TO THE PROFESSIONALS. CITIZENS MUST BE INVOLVED IN EVERY PHASE -- DISCUSSION, PLANNING, EXECUTION, EVALUATION OF EVERY PROJECT THAT HAS TO DO WITH THEIR OWN WELL BEING. 2. COMPREHENSIVE -- ALL OF THE INFLUENCES DIRECTLY AFFECTING THE CHILD MUST BE CONSIDERED -- HOME, FAMILY; NEIGHBORHOOD; SCHOOL; CHURCH; AGENCIES AND AREAS OF GOVERNMENT; THE COURT; VOLUNTARY SERVICES AND PROGRAMS. 3. COLLABORATIVE -- THE SCHOOLS MUST WORK WITH VOLUNTEERS. YOUTH PROGRAMS MUST WORK WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM. THE PROBLEMS WITH WHICH WE GRAPPLE ARE TOO COMPLEX FOR ANY ONE PERSON OR ANY ONE ORGANIZATION TO SOLVE THEM ALONE. TEAMWORK IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. 4. CONTINUITY -- THE PROBLEMS THAT WE FACE HAVE EVOLVED OVER MANY YEARS. IT IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE THAT A QUICK FIX WILL SOLVE THEM. WE NEED TO COMMIT OURSELVES AND OUR RESOURCES TO STAY AS LONG AS IT TAKES TO FINISH THE JOB. AND THAT MAY WELL BE A GENERATION, OR EVEN MORE. WHAT GOAL SHOULD WE HAVE? SIMPLY THIS: TO MAKE OUR COMMUNITY THE BEST PLACE IN THE "WORLD IN WHICH TO BE BORN AND GROW UP. I AM HERE TODAY TO TALK WITH THE LEADERSHIP OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA SYSTEM TO SEE IF THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH THE MAGNIFICENT KNOWLEDGE RESOURCES THAT THIS UNIVERSITY HAS CAN BE MOBILIZED MORE EFFECTIVELY TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS FACED BY YOUTH AND BY SOCIETY. THIS, IN MY ESTIMATION, IS THE GREATEST OPPORTUNITY THAT WE AS PROFESSIONALS HAVE: FULLEST POTENTIAL. TO HELP OUR YOUNG PEOPLE REACH THEIR �PAGE 12 THE YEARS AHEAD SHOULD BE EXCITING FOR OUR YOUNG. THEY SHOULD BE CHALLENGING AND FUN, NOT THREATENING AND STRESSFUL. THEY SHOULD BE REWARDING AND ENRICHING, NOT INTIMIDATING AND BORING. OUR YOUNG PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXCITED BY LIFE; MANY OF THEM ALREADY ARE, BUT ALL SHOULD BE. DEMOGRAPHICALLY, WE NEED EVERY ONE OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE MOTIVATED, CREATIVE, RESPONSIBLE, AND PRODUCTIVE. THE CHARGE IS TO RESPOND TO THE CHANGING CIRCUMSTANCES OF TODAY, TO ADOPT NEW AND EXCITING PROCEDURES, TO CHANGE OUR POLICIES AND OUR INSTITUTIONS TO A NEW DAY AND A NEW WAY. GIVEN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY, DO WE HAVE GROUNDS FOR OPTIMISM? WE SHOULD BE GRATEFUL TO REALIZE THAT, DESPITE UNPARALLELED TEMPTATIONS AND ALTERNATIVES, THE MAJORITY OF OUR YOUTH DO NOT FAIL, AND MOST OF THOSE WHO HAVE GONE ASTRAY ARE NOT BEYOND REDEEMING. AMERICAN HISTORY IS REPLETE WITH CRISES THAT HAVE BEEN MET BY THE YOUNG, AND WITH FEWER RESOURCES AND LESS KNOWLEDGE THAN WE NOW HAVE AT OUR DISPOSAL. OUR CREDO MIGHT PROPERLY COME FROM RALPH WALDO EMERSON, WHO WROTE HIS POEM, "VOLUNTARIES" DURING THE CIVIL WAR: so so NIGH IS GRANDEUR TO OUR DUST NEAR IS GOD TO MAN, THAT WHEN DUTY WHISPERS LOW, "THOU MUST" THE YOUTH REPLIES "I CAN." WPC0961N � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1988-09-07_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, The Greatest Opportunity Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 7, 1988 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the University of Nebraska during the Town and Gown breakfast. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Youth Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1988-09-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b3fa39b7b5155c2c68d0db3e7290e98.pdf dc058589b1bb0abffb4a9ef95513ea91 PDF Text Text THE UNIVERSE OF .QU\J"""TIO YOUTH W'by, Director Russ 11 G. Divi ion of icultur W. elio Fo tion To be vith you for thi ppreci ted privil ch in vi th to m t one provo tive . ch- l!01ioTC"oIrer, I my n urpos ten ion du b Foun t ion , tt 0 rtunities of ut 0 vorld vi . K 110 ro r Foun t ion . spen ibi 11tics in th ch uc ton . n to tho Th of Ext naion rci 1 a lpeo l , icult ur, nt . ce pted the i nvi t ion 0 part of t his pro Lloyd Rutle l e th e ture of t dift' rent than your , our interest i v to t , I vill not dv 11 on , youth deve10 lly t of t h Foun tion i in S B to curr nt reapensibiliti my tion r e very ti C is th th W. in s co or , I t n dir ctions i n co I 100 n you, individual ly fo dto ny col l ct i vely, on pro 1 illtere t . Th1 rni l i f'yi confid nCe I int n ut th s t you v i l l your own di eussion s ion . dir etly to e rt in nd t nts: t io vith inter i tin and uld ob of the Kelio Th rticular Conference pon ibil iti Un!versity nd ErtelLGion, lly velcome the OpPOrtunity es in 4-H . of thi r unexpect i spected nd coveted co ll i l l y, vile t ete cription of d r ' Conf erenc Of course , I pereo my the t h 1 4-H Le tio p eta of s. r obs rvations into proper turc pro essio Fir t - to r efl ct ttedly over- C experi 11 ttee ve on our discus ion of t I do t hi vith r spect i v on thro th specific nay nd Tue , • �n our C ." hip t lad v1 rn vi 1n nte t ebni 1n 1 1n 0 prof' t, e1 11 t10nj t pro tha be I I t ut prof 10 11 nt. tth t rs 1 1b111ty 1 11 lc 1n eo et10 et 0 ur eo p of yo • On to l1ve of our ly I I to h lp tb t poin I Dr. �- 3 • it to i ell ti ion of co ~ ''l!.T'ltl i • T1lll' I On robl I tio it i of 1n:t'1d 11ty to on ch ly 1n.teJ:"de:per.1.d1 e n t .............. i r 8hi e, f1 1r e2i!lPhi:~s1 of au thc)U,g;h't-proVOlUIllg d1 CU8 10n 0 r ity on 10n t rv D1r e 4- e. fort th in .1AIlCl~lirs.n·t UA.I~ Un1 r i ty BVI~'te!'m rei y of to rvi r 4. yout in t of 1 . n1 rahi to then , v 10 e1 1 c P. of view' in I v1ll ev 10 d thr re ultant d1 r1 te, c for to to hip, lat10 11 th1 Un1 1 erea.s1r.tg rr in 10 e rvat10ns ndorD~~ut nt ...n t• ., ... of c 1 rof ob trer::leJ1CIOUS OOil~rer. eon:f'id byt chaJ.le bett r job. 10 not c 1n both Be pr implie1t 11 sen~tion th discus 10 to f1 n um:msvclred t, tion of JAJlO.~liI"3l.Ut Un1v r 1 ty �- 4n ien i ndu t 1on ; i t 1b1 l1 t i 1 I 4 - o f t - co Coo I npus you d 10 n t ion t o t t Un1 r s i t I 1 A~'''''''''' '' t o c o n t r i ion U n ! ri t y ' C1'">n1n.." , . , : 1 u h . " ' f " . l " I f ' r t I o r tt h i n �- 5t 10 ot iv1 1. �-6th1 i n 1 con er no r r 1e t conv ie t10 , rp r c ) c edw : a l 1 . VO l l ILt p e c )p J . e . I n0 "e x l ; ,e n to f I n c j o r1n: 'l.u: ~no. l i n l y ' ,( b ) 1 ,U lo ' /A l ; :u t: ( ) , ch CO : : i : lCU l l1 ty I I. O \U ' " w i th Th u l t1m a t e b 1 ObO l f rV ' l' l . t1 . t t .:J. . . . 'OU "U ' w i l l t o o lthe :mne ~ 1~'~~ o r1 o r 1 o n , " t n o �1tnss1J%U , . ) • 1 ) , I d eV .U~l 1C!nt 0 rt. m~JAlut1 . . . . . . .1 . " ' \ .04 , Jvo . ; r : ! 1 '0 . 11 : .h e · r , YO l l th , I t )1 2 . o t l l e r1 1 m t 'A " " ' 1 1 n , ? ] , yd 1 f ' : t1 �3 . le~n1I .:: o r1 t . t .1ontomnr-nu l l ! t .h , v i 1 , r1 5 . , . . . . 1 J \ . .u . . . . c h m o t i , r a t o . 1 o,u t t o d: y yo v i C . , " e1 Y ' , co. ,Inc . , ��- 10 ri, t llty to 0 1 oJ -''-'''> I . viti nI to with th lly Thi r inc1 �- 11 - ily not • • in .;;:;x'WIlDie '... .... ''''............ 0 'W' COltlulm1.n.:.Ltion I Bu �o 1 , " ,I ' ' " "~"" " '..... . ,U f . .1" ' . . . . _ ,. . . . . ~~ ..." 11 1 1 . t no t 1 11 "o r t 1 1 �t ocon t t 1 1 ,0 t t a t r t . n r :L l y ......., " " ...r 1 pm : -po. c e ' l " C UJ 1~1 1 no -, th l re :J . , to IW l t l ,d i n pe4 ; )1 )JLe, 1 t t o o c lt yden r an c lB 1 b l, �-1 - 5 . 1.n t1"" ""·~r t r o l , � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1977-09-09_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, Youth in the Universe of Education Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 9, 1977 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the National 4-H Leader's Conference. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Youth Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1977-09-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8fdbad95d195464e76176712200b4bed.pdf b1c36e2d7d7a9064553746cc9322eb4c PDF Text Text THE ROLE OF THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE IN THE DECADE OF COMMUNITY DR. RUSSELL G. MAWBY Chairman and Chief Executive Offic er W.K. Kellogg Foundation Battle Creek, Michigan Sinc e the 1 9 9 0s seems destined to become the Decade of the Community, ther e will be boundless tremendous impact in opportunities the local for community colleges communi ties they serve by lea d e r s h i p initiatives in the areas of so cietal concern. to hav e developing I am pleased to be invited to comment on community and the role of community colleges in the 1990s. In thinking relates to conc erns. about the common is happening good, I in contemporary wa.s . tempted to society begin with a as it list of However, it would be presumptuous and inappropriate for me to propose such a f act, what long cafeteria list of issues, for each of us knowledgeable about the concerns of our world, is, our country, in our state, and particularly, our home communities. Instead, I have observations chosen about in societal a broad issues overview for which to briefly the share implications five for community colleges and their leadership are rather apparent. Observation 1: The seeming inability of our political processes and institutions to deal with significant issues in substantial ways This is most vivid at the national level. Today, Congress is struggling ineffectively with concerns such as fiscal and financial responsibility, �trade imbalance, the arts, farm programs, energy policy, foreign affairs, child care, and environmental quality. support of Most state politicians are equally ineffective on matters of school finance, state budget, worker's compensation, and a host of other concerns. Technology has politicians. the dramatically the nature of politics and New techniques of sophisticated, instantaneous polling and influence of mass media seem changed to have forced treatment on every issue and personality elected 'o f f i c i a l s to become society and more followers of the herd. only after consensus has been reached, less the leaders of There is a tendency to lead to wait and see which way parade is going, and then rush to its head. the Another change, which has influenced the political process to society's disadvantage, has been the increase in number, variety, groups. Collectively, and effectiveness of special through the concept of entitlement, interest they have handcuffed political responses to changing needs. Today, there are few elected officials who could be described statespersons with vision, commitment, and a concern for the whole. as For voters, patterns of political power also have changed dramatically, with greater diffusion and less loyalty t.o' 'pa r t y and purpose. The net effect of these changes has been the lessening of the government's ability, at all levels, to be a catalyst for social change. This, then, ini tiatives, suggests an enhanced potential which demonstrate new answers to for societal private-sector needs. ventures can provide the vision and comprehensive approach, These which the political process fails to provide. Observation 2: The seeming return (shift back) to local responsibility and control in addressing societal needs For a span of about six decades - from the progressive era at the turn of the century to the late 1960s, and, particularly, beginning with the 2 �New Deal in the 1930s - the federal government took an ever-increasing role in meeting 1970s, that the trend Increasingly, needs has of first the American people. slowed, and now Since seems the to early reverse. states and localities are being asked to deliver services and provide benefits to people at the community level. This situation poses problems for nearly all states and localities and puts pressure on the tax system, especially, to raise revenues to cover increased state and local expenditures. A desirable consequence is that more problems are being identified and dealt with closer to home. And, as we all know, the answers usually lie not in dollars alone, but in the increased commitment and involvement of people who care. are obvious: more Again, opportunities for private-sector initiatives There is a desperate need to become more efficient and effective in using limited resources and in mobilizing local leadership. Observation 3: The dichotomy between the nature of the problems that concern us and the solutions we devise The problems of concern to society tend to be multidisciplinary, overarching, penetrating, and permeating. complex, Each of us can make our own list - inflation, K-12 and higher education, home care for the peace. elderly, To groundwater, the contrary, environmental quality, job generation, the solutions most often devised to address such issues tend to be narrow, discipline- or profession-oriented, and biased, simplistic, and inadequate to the task. A major contribution of community colleges in addressing societal needs can be to encourage and demonstrate programs involve collaboration, and provide continuity. 3 that are comprehensive, �Observation 4: The persistent reluctance to face facts and to deal with reality Resistance to change is a human characteristic, comfortable with evidence is overwhelming, reluctant to things respond. most both individuals and their institutions are a truism that concern, we know better than we do." be of special interest to you: even feel the is Sometimes, of us when It familiar. and most "in most cases of human Think only of the areas that may substance abuse, K-12 education, health care, the environment, or any other. For example, if we think of child development in the early years, we know that age five is too late for societal concern and intervention. Yet, most communities lack comprehensive early-childhood and preschool programs of high quality. The evidence is clear that the elementary years are most important and that school drop-outs can be predicted by grades six or seven. Still, we persist in accrediting our high schools and starving the elementary schools -whenever resources are limited. Furthermore, many teachers will tell you that it takes the first three months of the new school year to catch up to where students were before summer vacation . learning during Yet, the we persist summer in having months a a three-month school-year model break in established nearly 200 years ago by an agrarian society. Another example of reluctance to react to reality and make change is in the area of corrections. Pennsylvania recently When discussing penal reform, commented, person in the state pen, "It costs $24, 000 a the governor of year to keep but only $8,000 a year at Penn State." a Yet, creative efforts to deal with this overwhelming problem are virtually nonexistent. 4 �We as a society, through our institutions and organizations, must put to better use that which is already known. Here community colleges can ·be a key catalyst. Observation 5: The persistence of "turfism" in addressing societal needs Usually programs continuity. human Battle service Creek, for are badly example, fragmented have lack identified voluntary, nonprofit groups directed to the needs of youth. Pluralism competition can also be healthy; we and 67 is good; In of but infighting, adversarial stances, and combative behavior are not! The clearest example in our hometown was hospitals, virtually across the street from each other, from less than 50 percent occupancy. host of in health care. other Department health of Public care In addition, organizations Health, American Cross, each suffering we have the usual Visiting Red We had two Nurse Hospice. Service, Meals on Wheels, voluntary ambulances services, and many more. Unhappily. while each is composed of intelligent, able. dedicated, and well-intentioned individuals, each also tends to address issues from the perspective of their organizational or institutional objectives. is concerned activities with of its others own niche, and too with often not insufficient sensitive attention comprehensive health needs of the people of the community. Each to to the the In Battle Creek, we finally succeeded in getting the two hospitals to merge. Now we are in the process of getting the other players to join the team. Again, colleges there to is· a be an challenge influence and in a great bringing comprehensive, collaborative, and continuous. 5 opportunity about for services community that are �Growing out of these observations are four thoughts -- two concerns and two challenges about community colleges and their role in the decade of community that I have briefly chosen to share. Caution 1: Don't succwnb to the temptation to become something other than what society desperately needs you to be. The role that community tremendously significant. growing, successful colleges But, playing in communities is there is increasing temptation for any institution bigger or more structured. is to change, to evolve into something Many community colleges have started down the path to become four-year institutions. In my opinion, this is a tragic mistake. Look at the numbers in my home state of Michigan. established colleges and universities. When There are 15 state- you examine budget it is clear that 15 is more than we can afford. the state Each of these 15 institutions does little to vary from the same, rather rigid approach to higher education -- teaching essentially in a highly structured pattern of courses, for credit, in classrooms, on campus. Michigan also has 29 with needs the concerned special with classroom to community colleges, teaching, of not the each unique, communities research, the people -- whether on and they are campus, each concerned serve. willing in a to local They are take the elementary school, or in a nearby mechanic's shop -- at times when people are able to participate. We, as a community and as a society, need community colleges to remain true to their original vision and mission. Caution 2: As institutions protocols, divisions, Fight the tendency to become institutionalized. grow procedures, departments, there is a tendency and to build walls catalogs, establish patterns, through the development calendars, 6 to contracts, etc. of In �institutions that have undergone this evolution something doesn't fit into a prescribed small box, to rigidity, if it simply cannot be done. John Gardner may have put it best in his book entitled, The Individual societies are and the young, Innovative they are Society: flexible, "When fluid, not Self-renewal: organizations and yet paralyzed by rigid specialization and a willingness to try anything once. As the organization or society ages, vitality diminishes, flexibility gives way to rigidity, creativity fades and there is a loss of capacity to meet challenges from unexpected directions." Community colleges have to avoid this type of institutionalization that can lead to a lack of sensitivity to the needs of the community. Community college leaders must work to keep their institutions flexible entities in a changing community. Challenge 1: To be even more responsive to the needs of the community. Community colleges are by tradition committed and experienced to be a leader in addressing community concerns. In this decade of community, community colleges will be challenged to be even more proactive and more of a catalyst in collaboration than they have in the past. think of your individual community's agenda, list of issues emerges. are endless and The possible roles distinctive to each When you I am sure a rather lengthy for the community college community. They have the opportunity to transform local communities through their resources and their ability to act as an agent of change. Challenge 2: To play an increasingly major role with nonprofit organizations in your community. When you look at life at the community level, much of its character, its quality, its organizations. caring is connected Imagine your with nonprofit community without 7 institutions the nonprofit and sector. �There would be no churches or religious organizations; activities would be youth education. severely damaged, as social service would efforts in adult and Without the nonprofit sector, the arts and health care would be virtually nonexistent. In this decade of community, where responsibility has been shifted but resources, for the most part, remain at the federal and state level, the need for development, training, and collaboration among organizations in the nonprofit sector is essential for their survival. Community colleges can play an increasingly important role in providing preservice and inservice training for nonprofits, their staff, and their boards. I am convinced that changes that will come in our society will be a result of the work of volunteer citizen boards. Those organizations that have become institutionalized cannot be changed from within, only the work of ci tizen boards archi tects and energizers -- of change will alter these organizations to meet the increasing needs of community. While all nonprofits are well-intentioned in the community, many efforts are fragmented and lack a common focus. In Battle Creek, for example, there are 87 agencies working with youth. Seldom does one know what the other of providing a is doing and there is never talk continuum of service and educational opportunities for young people in our community. Community colleges have the ability, organizations and to assist them through their resources, in developing these to focus comprehensive approaches to issues and concerns of the community. In conclusion, it is clear that most of the significant new directions imperative to our societal future will not be charted by government. In fact, many elected officials are almost desperate for better answers or proposed solutions to perplexing issues. their unique ability to react to local Community colleges, because of and regional needs must be responsive to changing societal circumstances and opportunity. Community creative, level. colleges have a rich collaborative approaches tradition of innovation, to human concerns nurturing at the community These traits will be needed more than ever before in the 1990s 8 �the decade of community. A decade that can be, should be, and will be the de cade of the community co llege, if you choose to make it so. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1992-09_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, The Role of the Community College in the Decade of Community Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September, 1992 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation on the importance of community colleges in the community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-09-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6cca9b482dde88002f5dae6a683aac7.pdf effb39967984dd5973c455211738d699 PDF Text Text TESTIMONY OF RUSSELL G. MAWBY CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER W.K. KELLOGG FOUNDATION HOUSE TAXATION COMMITTEE STATE OF MONTANA APRIL 3,1995 Good morning . My name is Russ Mawby, and I am chairman of the Board and chief executive officer of the W .K. Kellogg Foundation, located in Battle Creek, Michigan. I am privileged to be here today and truly appreciate this opportunity to visit with you about a very important matter. As you may know, the Kellogg Foundation, one of the world's largest private foundations, has long been committed to supporting the development of systems to encourage philanthropy and volunteerism nationally - and at the community level. This interest has led to our support for developing and strengthening community foundations in the state of Michigan. �We at the Kellogg Foundation believe in the value of community foundations - the most exciting institutional development in philanthropy today. Community foundations bring permanence and flexibility to those organizations working to solve issues at the community level. Their ability to transfer working assets from one generation to another, their leadership , and their broad viewpoint make them critical components of what we acknowledge as a civil society. In so many ways , they are a major part of the solution for dealing with issues and concerns at the community level. Every citizen in the state of Michigan is indeed fortunate to be served by a community foundation in their local city, township, or village ... partly as a result of the Michigan Community Foundation Tax Credit, which was enacted in 1988. The Kellogg Foundation supports such a tax credit because it helps to build the assets of community foundations . We support the development of community foundations because the most exciting solutions to today's problems are those not coming from Washington , 2 �or even from Helena. They are coming from our local communities. Local leaders are the ones who are closest to problems and the ones best equipped to solve them. Local leaders cannot solve community problems all by themselves. They need arrows for their quivers, and perhaps the sharpest arrow is the community foundation. Community foundations are the most community-based of all philanthropic institutions. They are the most flexible, and they can support a wide range of initiatives to improve the community. Their activities can range from economic development to social services, from recreation to health care, from soup kitchens to neighborhood development. But community foundations are more than money-givers. They also serve as conveners for important community meetings, as "honest brokers" to help build teams of organizations to solve problems. In short, community foundations serve as a catalyst for change. Since 3 �they serve all the interests in the community, they can bring all of them together to make things happen. Because the trustees and staff of community foundations live in their communities, they can help new initiatives with their personal involvement. as well as with funds . We believe the credit helps to build the capacity of these organizations to fund and to lead. Today, I would like to encourage your enactment of a community foundation tax credit for the residents of Montana. This innovative legislation by the state of Montana would provide a strong incentive to encourage charitably-inclined individu als to give to their local communities. Such a tax credit would provide an incentive for other charities to talk . to community foundations regarding the establishment of permanent endowments that are restricted for the use of their organizations. 4 �Because community foundations have the capacity to manage restricted funds for other nonprofits, agencies such as United Way, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Hospitals, Hospice, women's shelters, 4-H Clubs, museums, libraries, school systems, and others have established endowment funds within community foundations throughout Michigan. All of these endowment funds qualify for a tax credit. With such a tax credit, many of these organizations in Montana would, for the first time, be able to strategically plan for their longterm financial security through permanent assets. This is the best "win/win" strategy for everyone in the community. Without a tax credit for community foundations, these other organizations might be years away from having the organizational capacity to handle legally complex planned gifts . By having the community foundation manage the endowments, organizations will receive the benefits of long-term, stabilized funding. 5 �At the same time, the community foundation can grow through managing these assets more efficiently, thereby reducing the costs of managing these funds , while achieving greater growth and returns. In turn, these organizations could receive the tax credit for their permanently endowed funds. The tax credit would provide a tool and incentive to build this community trust between agencies. I see the leveraging opportunity in this small tax advantage as a way to build your communities. I would encourage you to take the long view: that is, if you make your community strong - the state will be strong. Should you pass up such a tax credit for community foundations, I believe that you will lose the opportunity for establishing some new philanthropists in Montana. You will lose one tool for building collaboration at the community level. You will lose an important outreach tool to new donors. And you will lose an incentive for your community nonprofits to establish permanent endowment funds . 6 �We also believe that such a tax credit could serve as a catalyst in the establishment of a network of strong community foundations to serve communities throughout the state of Montana. Such a group of local foundations would be positioned to tackle statewide problems through locally-designed programs. These issues might include water and air quality, youth development, support for the arts, and education reform. This credit would come at a time which is critical to the building of these local funds. Other foundations such as Ford, Lilly, Rockefeller, Mott, Packard, and MacArthur, as well as Kellogg, have provided funding for projects managed by community foundations. These programs can be new dollars coming into states to help solve local problems. The dollars can flow throuqhout the community because the community foundation is there to manage them. 7 �Finally, this tax credit would be an enormous help to the building of capital , both for the community foundations and for other nonprofit charities . I believe that this tax credit would stimulate new donors to start to give to community foundations, and if our experience in Michigan is any indication, they would not change their gifts to other charities. These are new, private monies in permanent endowments that are available to accomplish public good. We would strongly encourage you to support what we believe would be a very effective and beneficial tax policy. Thank you. S:\COMM\PUBLlC\TAXDOC 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1995-04-03_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony before the House Taxation Committee Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given April 3, 1995 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the State of Montana House Taxation Committee. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Legislation Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0a2aa261b29cf6c25de1a17120a1aea.pdf 04581bbaee2105c7d37f325cbc893786 PDF Text Text 1< (,...1 ( -rL.J.- ~ ) ~ . ~-. ,~ ~fJL v- 2- - I am Dr. Russell G. Mawby, President of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation of Battle Creek, Michigan and a Co-Trustee of the Kellogg Fotmdation Trust. / /' 2 ~ t&- manager of a foundatrion which actively participated in the legislative developnent of §4943 in 1969, specifically the "grandfather" provisions of §4943 (c) (4) • My reason for requesting the opporttmity to appear is to help insure that private fotmdations are pennitted to retain pre-1969 business holdings. Ten ears ago, on August 8, 1969, a panel representing many of the sane fourrlations which are here today successfully made the sane argurrents to the Finance Conmittee of the United States Senate. I stress the word "successfully" because the result of that corrbined testinony in 1969 was the statutory "grandfathering" of pre-1969 holdings contained in §4943 (c) (4) of the Code -- the statuto regulations would effectively attorney, ril, f r~~ ~ provision which the proposed ~ 1P- <-A! ~ a foundatii.on manager, not an .. ~ " I do ot; tmderstand why, having been adopted by Congress, A the argurrents must be made again. GMe ~} I do appreciate tho opportunity to testify to the wisdom of the Congressional decision in 1969 not to force wholesale· divestitu:te of existing foundation holdings. The W.K. Kellogg Foundation has, over the past 50 years, distributed nore than $500 million to charitable beneficiaries. That $500 million has been possible fran the initial gift of $45 million of Kellogg Company stock to the Foundation Trust of which the Kellogg Foundation is the sole �- 2- b e n e f i c i a r y . Bo th t h eK e l logg Found a t ion andFo tmd a t ionT r u s ta r ep r i v a t e found a t ion sand ,f o rpu rpo s e so f§4943 ,e a chi sa d i s q u a l i f i e dP e r s o nw i t h r e s p e c tt ot h eo t h e r . Tog e th e r ,t h eFound a t ionandFound a t ionT r u s tand d i s q u a l i f i e dp e r s o n stod ayCM I l ~ o ft h eK e l logg c a r p a n y . O ft h a ta r roun t , d i s q u a l i f i e dp e r s o n sw i t hr e s p e c tt o ,t h eFound a t ionandT r u s tCMI l 1 .4% . T en y e a r sago ,t h eFound a t ionandT r u s t andd i s q u a l i f i e dP e r son sh ad<X J I b in ed h o l d i n g so f5 4% . So ,a syous e e ,t h eh o l d i n g so ft h eFound a t ion ,T r u s t and d i s q u a l i f i e dp e r s o n sh av ebeen r edu c edt ocon fo : rmt ot h er equ i . r en en t so ft h e s e condp h a s eo f§4943( c )( 4 )wh i ch began f o rt h eK e l logg Found a t ionand T r u s t onM ay 26 , 1979 . T h er e d u c t i o n si n h o l d i n g so v e rt h ep a s tt e ny e a r sh av ebeen a c co r rp l i sh ed l a r g e l yt h r o u g hd i l u t i o no ft h ei n t e r e s to ft h eFound a t ionandT r u s ta st h e r e s u l to fi s s u a n c e so fa d d i t i o n a ls h a r e so fs t o c kb yt h ec o r p o r a t i o n ,t h u s a v o i d i n gt h en a r k e td i s r u p t i o nwh i ch wou ld h av ea cx : : a rp an i . eda s a l eo ft h e F o tm d a t i o n ' sh o l d i n g si na l i k ea r roun t . F o rex amp l e ,i n Nov e r rb e ro f1978 t h e r ew a s as a l ebyap r i v a t efound a t iono f2% o ft h econp anys t o c kth rougha p r i v a t ep l a c e n e n t . T h er e s u l to ft h i sd i s p o s i t i o nw a s ad e p r e s s i o no ft h em a r k e tp r i c e ,w i t h al o s so fr ro r ethan$ 4 0m i l l i o ni nt h en a r k e tv a l u eo ft h e h o l d i n g so ft h eK e l logg Found a t ionand Found a t ionT r u s t . O fc o u r s e ,t h e r ew a s as im i l a rl o s so finv e s t : r r en tv a l u et oo t h e rs h a r e h o l d e r s . \ . . . . . . . . . . . . ." ,con c e rnf ~~ h a r s handu n j u s t i f i a b l econ s equ en c e s l e dt h e Cong r e s st o" g r a n d f a t h e r "e x i s t i n gh o l d i n g swh en t h e yw r o t et h e1969A c t . I n 1965 ,t h eT r e a s u r yh a df i r s tp ropo s edl im i t sont h ep e rm i t t e dh o l d i n g so fa p r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o ni nab u s i n e s se n t e r p r i s e . Th e s ep r o p o s a l sd i dn o tr e c e i v e �- 3l e g i s l a t i v ea t t e n t i o nu n t i l1969 ,wh en ,a sa p a r to ft h eT ax Re fO Im A c t , t h eHou s ei n c l u d e da p r o v i s i o nwh ich wou ld h av ei n p o s e da 20% l im i tona p r i v a t efound a t ion Is h o . ld i r iq si na b u s i n e s se n t e r p r i s eandr e q u i r e dp r i v a t e f o u n d a t i o n sh av ingh o l d i n g si ne x c e s so f20% t or edu c et h o s eh o l d i n g s; t ;o A w i t h i nf i v ey e a r s . Con c e rn ed o v e rt h ei r rp a c to fther a p i dd i v e s t i t u r em and a t ed byt h eHou s e - p a s s e dp r o v i s i o nont h ev a l u eo ft h eh o l d i n g so fthefound a t ionands t o c k h o l d e r si ng e n e r a l ,t h ea f f e c t e df o u n d a t i o n sapp e a r e da saP a n e lb e f o r et h e S en a t eF in an c eC a rm i t t e e . , e t ' " " " e s s e n t l 1 t l l : ~re . J ~ ( 2 ) e £ o we r ecx : :x rp l e t e lyi n c o n s i s t e n t eHou s ew en tf u r t h e r r~ e twh a th adc an et ob e n e c e s s a r yi nane f f o r t a sa it u a t i o nsu s c ep. L e p i r i ta sw e1 a st h eI t t e r o ft h er aw ; and (4) es i l l wau l L i t h edono rt or e s u l ti n theph i .L an thn f o r c e ds a l eo fab u s i n e s sw i t h <pn s equ en . ta d v e r s i t yf o rt h ec em p / T h i t s e r rp loyees - - re ,~-------- con c e rn so v e rt h eHou s ev e r s i o no f' t h e 1969A c ta r et h es an econ c e rn s wh ich e x i s tw i t hr e s p e c ttoy o u rp ropo s edr~ . ~~e requirenentfor The S e n a t eF in an c eC a rm i t t e ea g r e e d r d d i v e s t i t u r eo fp r e l 9 6 9h o l d i n g s , and ,i n s t e a d ,impo s edd i f f e r e n tl im i t son su chh o l d i n g s . Und e r theS e n a t eb i l l ,a f o u n d a t i o nc o u l dr e t a i na l lo fi t s I. I �- 4p r e -1969h o l d i n g st oam a . x im um o f5 0% . W h e r et h ee x i s t i n gh o l d i n g s ex c e ed ed5 0% ,t h efound a t ionw a sp e n n i t t e d1 0· y e a r st om e e tt h e50% l e v e l . Th e Con f e r en c ec a rm i . t t e ea c c e p t e dt h eS en a t e app ro a ch ;h cM ev e r ,t h e 50% l e v e lo fp e n n i t t e dh o l d i n g sw a sr edu c edt oanu l t im a t e3 5% ,b u tana d d i t i o n a l1 5y e a r s( t o1994 )w a sp r o v i d e df o rt h a tr e d u c t i o n . Th er e s u l to ft h ep a n e l ' s· t e st i n o n yi n1969w a s ,t h e r e f o r e ,a s t a t u t e wh ich r e j e c t e dm and a to ry du r rp ingo fap r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n ' ss t o c kont h e m a rk e t , C ! c t ion_W l l l c h :'WO u l dh av er e d u ce dt l ' i ' ev a l u eo ft h er em a in in gs h a r e s h e l dby t h ep r i v a t efoun d a t i o na sw e l la st h a to fa l i :o t h e rs h a r e h o l d e r s . Cong r e s s ag r e edt h a tf i v ey e a rd i v e s t i t u r ew a s toog r e a t n g r e s sn o ton l y .r e j e c t e d r e g u l a t i on sp ropo s e,b u tp e n n i t t e dap r i v a t efound a t i o nt or e t a i np r e -1969h o l d i n g sf o r e v e rt oar n a x im Jmo f3 5% . An e x amp l eo ft h ew i sO a no ft h a td e c i s i o ni sr e f l e c t e di nt h ei n c r e a s e i nv a l u eande a r n i n g so fo u rF o u n d a t i o n ' sh o l d i n g si nt h eK e l logg C anp any o v e rt h ep a s t1 0y e a r sa sca rpa redt oa ni n v e s t I r e n ti nad i v e r s i f i e dp o r t f o l i o . H a dt h eFound a t ionbeen f o r c e dt od i v e s to fi t s K e l logg C c x n p a n yh o l d i n g si n 1969 and v ei n v e s t e di na.p o r t f o l i or e p r e s e n t a t i v eo ft h eDow J on e s I n d u s t r i a lAv e r ag e ,f o re · $ 10 $ i n go n l y$90 .9 6 "~e byre~ ° ve~ e , t h e ~ ) ~ e rana i n - K e l iogg s t o c k ,f o rev e ry$ 1 0 0t h e h a s $124.7 wo rk ing f o rc h a r i t a b l ep u r p o s e s . A d d i t i o n a l l y ,t h ed i v i d e n d s onK e l logg C a rp any s t o c kh av ec o n s i s t e n t l yex c e ed edt h em a rk e t av e r ag e . F u r t h e r , thec o s to fa dm i n i s t e r i n gt h ep o r t f o l i oh a sbeen s u b s t a n t i a l l yl e s s thanYK ) u l dh av ebeen r e q u i r e dt om an ag e ad i v e r s i f i e dp o r t f o l i oo ft h eSa I IE -~ �- 5· . ,~ . ~ e r e f o r e ,t e tm v e s tm e n tr e t u r n• . . . . . a r roun t . Th h en J .. h a sb e e nf a rg r e a t e rthani £ d i v e r s i f i c a t i o nh adb e e nf o r c e d . Thu s , youc a ns e et b a tt h ep ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n sa r ec o n t r a r yt ot h e w i sd an o ft h eCong r e s s ion a ld e c i s i o ni n1969 . T h ep r o p o s a l sc o u l dr e q u i r e t h eF ound a t ionandFound a t ionT r u s tt od i s p o s eo f$ 4 0 0m i l l i o no fs t o c kw i t h i n 9 0d ay so fc o r p o r a t ea c t i o nt a k e nbyt h eK e l logg C anp any i nt h eno rn a l .c o u r s e o fi t s b u s i n e s s . A sa c o r p o r a t ed i r e c t o r ,w h e nc o n f r o n t e dw i t h ac o r p o r a t ea c q u i s i t i o n wh i ch v .D u l db ei nt h eb u s i n e s si n t e r e s to ft h ec anp any ,you rp ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n sv .D u l df o r c er o et ochoo s eb e tw e env o t i n ga g a i n s tt h er e o r g a n i z a t i o nw it h o u tr e g a r df o rt h ec o r p o r a t eb u s i n e s sanda l lo t h e rs h a r e h o l d e r s ,o rv o t i n g f o rt h ez e c rq an i . a a tdonand f o r c i n gt h ed i s p o s i t i o no f$400m i l l i o no ft h e F o u n d a t i o n ' si n v e s b r e n ta td i s t r e s sp r i c e s ,t h e r e b ye r o d i n gt h ev a l u eo ft h e F o u n d a t i o n ' s inv e s tm en tand t b a to ft lx>u s and so fo t h e rs h a r e h o l d e r sa sw e l l . A sa found a t ionm an ag e r and I b e l i e v eI speak f o ra l lfound a t ionm an ag e r s w h oa r ea f f e c t e dby t h e s ep ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n s Iwou ld n ev e ra t t a r p tt o m an ag et h ec anp anyf o rt h eb e n e f i to ft h eF ound a t ion ,o t h e rt b a nt oe x e r c i s e t h a tf i d u c i a r yo b l i g a t i o nwh i ch I ONe t h eF ound a t iont op r o t e c tandp r e s e r v e t h ev a l u eo fi t s I r rv e s tm en t . , A s ac o r p o r a t ed i r e c t o r ,Ih av et b a ts am e r e s p o n s i b i l i t yto ~ ~ re .. er Q J / t tbe te. o qX5 r -a t :± . \ How ev e r , you rp ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n s\>O . l l da t t a r p tt of o r c en et oa c t . I ~• r r r e s p o n sw y ,. t r f a n n i n gt h eF ound a t ion i n t oana g e n to ft h eT r e a su ry t o /1. e n f o r c es e l e c t i v er e s t r i c t i o n sonc o r p o r a t eb u s i n e s st r a n s a c t i o n s ' and\ \Qu ld s u p p l a n tt h einv e s tm en tn o t i o n so fT r e a su ry f o rt h o s eo ft h ef ound a t ionm an ag e r . �- 6Cong r e s sw a s awa r ei n1969 t h a ti t l a c k e dt h ee x p e r t i s et os e cond -gu e s st h e p a s tinv e s tm en t so ff o u n d a t i o nm an ag e r s andw i s e l y cho s et o" g r a n d f a t h e r " . . t h o s ee x i s t i n gh o l d i n g s . Th a t Cong r e s s ion a lw i sd an h a sb e e nr a t i f i e dby. t e ny e a r so fexp e r a en c e e t eny e a r so fp rov eni n v e s tm e n tp e r f o n n a n c e t e ny e a r s w it i x " J u tanex anp l eo fabu s e. ~ . ; amaw a r eo fnofound a t iont h a ta t . ~s i n c e1969h a si n c r e a s e d » : 'J i t s h o l d i n g si na b u s i n e s sen .r i s ei n ,wh i chi t owns a ( c )( 4 ) / i n t e r e s t . ~thatofthe P a r t i c u l a r l ywh e r et h ev a l u eo ft h e ...i n e s tm e n ti sa sg r e a t .... e ~Crnpany, i will be~ t od i s p o s e o ftheex c e s sO l l e r 35% ~ statutoryrateof1% ryearwithout having ap ro long eqadv e r s e. : j r o p a c tonthem a rk e tv ~f thes --anIrrpac Which K e l logg Found a t ion i nt h e byk a d v e r s e l y a f f e c t h :a r roun tr e a l i z e d / . Found a t iona s o ft h einv e s : t : t r en to fo t h e s h a r e h o l d • I t v . u u l d b ef a a ~ J r~ ~ reductions a foundn on ,w h e nf a c e d b a ti n p a c tby s h a r e . On o t h e rh and ,t h e w i s e r co e i st o u t i l i zo p p o r t u n i t i e sm a d e av a i 'a b l ebyc o r p o r a t ee x p a n s i ~ Foundation t ocoup l ed i l u t i o no f I S. i n t e r ef ' w i t ha c t l l : : ;-d i s p o s i t iO n . Th ep ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n swou ld e l im i n a t et h a tr e a s o n a b l eando r d e r l y r o e t h c d ' - f o rc a r r y i n go u tt h ei n t e n t _o f_ t h e _ s t a t u t e . . F i n a l l y , you rp ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n s wou ld i nf a c tr ew a rdabu s e . K e l l 0 J 9 Found a t ionwou ld b er e q u i r e dt od i s p o s eo f$ 4 0 0m i l l i o no fs t o c k b e c au s et h eF ound a t ionc o u l dn o tandwou ld n o te x e r c i s ec o n t r o lt op r e v e n t anaCX jU i s i t iono rn e r g e rt h a twas i nt h eb u s i n e s si n t e r e s to ft h eC c r n p a n y andi t s s h a r e h o l d e r s . On t h eo t h e rh a r r l ,i f a found a t iond i dc o n t r o la ' I t I �- 7b u s i n e s se n t e r p r i s es o l e l yf o rt h eFounda t .Lonvs b e n e f i t ,i t c o u l ds u r v i v e und e ryou rp r o p o s a l sandr e t a i ni t s s t a t u t o : r yr i g h t , Cong r e s sd i dn o t i n t e n dn o rw i l li t s a n c t i o nsu cha p e r v e r s er e s u l t . Th eT ax R e fonn A c to f1969 c o n t a i n e da c c r rp r eh en s . i v ep a ck ag eo fp r i v a t e found a t . ionr e f o n n s ,o fwh i ch·§4943 i s o n l yon e . T h ec o s to fc c rop l .L an c ehas b e enc o n s i d e r a b l e . Th eK e l logg Found a t ionandFound a t ionT r u s thas exp end ed a1 : r ro s t$ 1 0m i l l i o nd u r i n gthep a s t10y e a r si ne x c i s et a x e sandf o rc r n p l i a n c e , - 5Q -y e a r s dea . ; f-~ Th e -K e l log g - ~ .~ - rr - - ~. -.~ w i t ht h e~ f the1969A c t -I i e f e a l r ro s t ;2 0y e a r sp r i o r· t ot h e ~e- r. ~~ e. sedregu la t ions(, a , ~~ A f te r ; th0 t1gh t . : fu lo n s i ~) i n t ot h esoundm an aq em en t ;o fp h i l a n t h r o p i cr e s o u r c e s .~ A . h t , i . . .\ ' l l . / ~ 4 s t a t u t ei s t obe r e p e a l e d ,i t shou ldbe z ep e a l . ed b yCong r e s s ,n o tbyr . e g u l a t i o n . I ~ intrusion:5 .n . r : : - cf2.<> -~~- ~~ tk - ~- . . -- -~. / \ v- ~~e en a c t e d§4943c )( 4 )t o" g r a n d f a t h e r "t h ep r e l 9 6 9h o l d i n g so f p r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s , I f \ wh i ch W ) Founda t ionhad i . r rp l e r c en t ed � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1979-09-06_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony on the proposed regulations on private foundations, Excess Business Holdings of Private Foundations Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given before the Internal Revenue Service for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation concerning the proposed regulations on private foundations, 1979. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1979-09-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87b2310c7aa1c00e04de9488061500c3.pdf 73f6071ae0992252a6750bb0b54a2ad1 PDF Text Text SENATE F INANCE COMM ITTEE SUBCO~MITTEE ON FOUNDAT ION S T e s t imony by D r . R u s s e l lG . M aw by a tO c tobe r2 ,1 9 7 3Subcom : r . J . itt e eH e a r i n g s SUMMARY OF PERTINENTPO INTS 1 . Th ea n a l y s e sby t h eComm i s s ion on Found a t ion s andP r i va t eP h i lan t h r o p y (Th e P e t e r s o n Co~~ssion) wh i ch l e dt ot h een a c tm en to ft h e6p e rc e n td i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ei nS e c t i o n4 9 4 2o ft h eI n t e r n a lR ev enu e Cod eo f1 9 5 4r e f l e c t e d i n a c c u r a t ei n f o rm a t i o nandm i s r e p r e s e n t a t i o no ft h ea c t u a ls i t u a t i o n . Th ep r i n c i p a lc o n t e n t i o nr e f l e c t e di nt h eP e t e r s o nR epo r t w a s t h a tp o r t f o l i o so fp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n sh adn o tp rodu c ed r a t e so fr e t u r n st h o u g h tt oh av eb e en p rodu c edbymu tu a l f u n d s . Th i sc o n c l u s i o nw a sb a s e dupon a on ey e a ra n a l y s i s and w a s e r ron eou si nt e rm so fc o n t i n u i n gp e r fo rm an c e . 2 . Th e 6p e rc e n tpa y o u tr e q u i r em e n tenac tedby a S e n a t eF l o o rAm e ndme n tand l a t e ra c c e p t e dby t h eCon f e r en c e Comm i t t e em and a t e s t h ec o n t i n u i n gi n v a s i o n o fco rpu sby p r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s ,an un sound p r a c t i c ei np r u d e n tf i s c a l m an ag em en t . S t u d i e s showt h a tt h e6p e rc e n tp a y o u tr u l er e s u l t si ns h o r t t e rmi n c r e a s e st oc h a r i t yb u tt h a tt h ed im i n u t i o no fa ss e t so f p r i v a t efound a t i o n st om e e t t h ep a y o u tr equ i r em en ti ss o d r a s t i ca st oc au s el o n gt e rmr e d u c t i o n si nt h e i rp h i l a n t h r o p i c d i s t r i b u t i o n sf o rc h a r i t a b l ep u r p o s e s . 3 . Th eP e t e r s o n Comm i s s ion R epo r ta l s oe r r e di na s sum ingt h a ta n n u a li n c r e a s e s i nc o s t si nt h ee d u c a t i o n a landh e a l t hs e c t o r so ft h ee conomy w e r e no d i f f e r e n tt h a ni nt h ee conomy g e n e r a l l y andi t ss t u d i e sw e r eb a s e dupon a p r e sump t ion o fan a n n u a lc o s ti n c r e a s eo f2 p e rc e n t . H igh e re d u c a t i o nandt h eh e a l t hs e c t o r sa r el a b o r i n t e n s i v e s e r v i c ei n d u s t r i e swh e r ei t i sd i f f i c u l tt oa c h i e v ega i n si n p r o d u c t i v i t ye x p e r i e n c e di ngood s -p rodu c ing i n d u s t r i e s . Co s t i n c r e a s e si nt h eh e a l t hande d u c a t i o n a ls e c t o r sg r e a t l yex c e edt h o s ei nt h ee conomy g e n e r a l l y ,t h u sp u t t i n gp r e s s u r e on t h ea b i l i t i e so ff o u n d a t i o n st oc o n t i n u et om a i n t a i nt h e i r r e l a t i v ec o n t r i b u t i o n st os o c i e t y . 4 . Un le s st h e6p e rc e n tm in imum d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l eo fSe c t i o n4 9 4 2i sr e d u c e d t h er u l ew i l lp r o g r e s s i v e l yim p a i rt h ee f f e c t i v e n e s so fa l lf o u n d a t i o n s andev en e l im i n a t em any o f th em ,t ot h ed e t r im en to f so c i e t y . I fp r i v a t eph i l an th ropyi st oc o n t i n u ei t sh i s t o r i cc o n t r i b u t i o nt oAm e r i c an l i f e ,ch ang e si nt h ec u r r e n tl e g i s l a t i o n -i n c l u d i n ga r e d u c t i o nint h ep a y o u tr e q u i r em en ta r en e c e s s a r y . �SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE SUBCOMMITTEE ON FOUNDATIONS Testimony by Dr. Russell G. Mawby at October 2, 1973 Subcommittee Hearings My name is Russell G. Mawby, and I am President of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation in Battle Creek, Michigan. On April 10 of this year the W. K. Kellogg Foundation testified before the Committee on Ways and Means of the U. S. House of Representatives on the subject of the impact of the minimum distribution rule (Section 4942 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954) on Foundations. Much of the brief testimony which I give today will parallel the testimony presented at those hearings. supported by a study entitled If My testimony is also The Impact of the Minimun Distribution Rule on Foundations" by Dr. Norman B. Ture. A copy of that study is submitted along with my testimony for incorporation into the record. Since my testimony is concerned with the minimum distribution rule as enacted by the Tax Reform Act of 1969, my remarks will be restricted to Section 4942 of the Internal Revenue Code. However, I would like it to be known for the record that we share the concern that the 4% excise tax levied under Section 4940 should be eliminated or, in the alternative, reduced to a rate which would equal the audit costs the tax is intended to defray. Similarly, the Kellogg Foundation joins other Foundations con- cerned over the substantial reductions in assets which have been occasioned by forced diversifications of Foundation holdings, both to meet the arbitrary percentage standard of the 4942 payout requirements and to satisfy the divestiture rules of Section 4943. �2 Before briefly setting fo rth the legislative hi s tory concerning sect ion 4942, I would remind you of the r equiremen t s of the provi sion; that is, private foundation s must make annual dis tributions in the amount of the gre ater of either their earned inc ome or a fixe d percent age of the current market value of their investment assets. The rationale behind this concept was to insure th at current distributions are sufficient to justify tax benefits dono rs might have received, and to prevent private foundations from investing in the stock of companies which retain most of their earnings and thereby delay .charitable expenditures commensurate with the value of their assets. avoid this delay of benefit to charity, section In order to 4942 requires private foundations to make annual distributions at a prescribed level, even if an invasion of capital may be necessary. Many find this approach objectionable, not only because it mandates an encroachment on capit al, but also b ecause many private foundations that are currently able to support ma j or charitable programs are able to do so only because their assets have been historically invested to provide a reasonable appreciation in value as well as a fair current return. To illustrate this point, the Kellogg Foundation historically has distributed all of its income. Over the years the Foundation's assets have doubled in val ue every ten years. Most importantly, because of this appreciation. the payout to charity has more than doubled each decade. As I will show lat er, an annual i nvas i on of principal would have made thi s re cor d of ch arit ab l e contributions i mpossible. �3 Iwou ld emph a s i z et h a tp h i l o s o p h i c a l l yI s u p p o r tt h econ c ep to fa m i n im um annu a lc h a r i t a b l ed i s t r i b u t i o n . How ev e rt I amcon c e rn edw i t ht h em e thod o fd e t e rm i n i n g su cha d i s t r i b u t i o na ss e tf o r t hi ns e c t i o n4942 ; andev en i f t h a tm e thod o fd e t e rm i n a t i o nw e r ea c c e p t a b l et t h e6 p e r c e n tr a t es h o u l d b er edu c edb e c au s ei t i sh i s t o r i c a l l yu n r e a s l i t i c . Mov ing nowt ot h el e g i s l a t i v eh i s t o r y ,t h em i n im um d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l eh a s i t so r i g i ni nt h e"1965T r e a su ry R epo r to nP r i v a t e Found a t ion s "s u bm i t t e d t ot h eHou s e Comm i t t e e on W a y s. andM e an s . Th a tr e p o r te spou s edt h et h e o r y t h a tt h e r es h o u l db eac o r r e l a t i o nb e tw e ent h ei i~ t a xb e n e f i tt o f o u n d a t i o ndono r s andt h et im eo ffound a t iong r a n t so rb e n e f i t st oc h a r i t y . How ev e r , i t a l s on o t e dt h a tt h ein com eo fa s s e t sh e l dby found a t ion ss h o u l d b e on a p a r i t yw i t ho t h e rt ax ex emp te n t i t i e ssu cha sc o l l e g e s andu n i v e r s i t i e s . A l s o ,i t s t a t e dt h a tt h er e t e n t i o no fc a p i t a lb y found a t ion si s j u s t i f i a b l e . Th er e p o r tcon c lud edt h a ta r e a s o n a b l ein com ee q u i v a l e n twou ld b ei nt h e r ang eo f3t o31 / 2p e r c e n t . Thu s ,i t i sobv iou st h a tt h er e p o r td i dn o t i n t e n dt or e q u i r efound a t ion st od i s t r i b u t et oc h a r i t ya n amoun tt h a twou ld r e q u i r ed im inu t ion o fco rpu sa ss e c t i o n4 9 4 2c l e a r l yr e q u i r e s . Th ef i r s th i n tt h a tt h em in imum r a t ep r o p o s a la s adop t edi n1969 m igh tb e abov et h e3 -t o31 / 2 p e r c e n tl e v e lapp e a r si nfo rm e rS e c r e t a r yo ft h e T r e a s u r yF ow l e r ' ss t a t em e n tt oCong r e s so nD e c emb e r1 1 , 1968 ,w h e nh eu s ed an ex amp l ewh i ch a s sum eda 5 p e r c e n t in com ee q u i v a l e n t . Th i s ex amp l ew a s a p p a r e n t l yt h eb a s i sf o rt h eComm i t t e eo nW a y s andM e a n s a d o p t i n ga 5 p e r c e n t m in imum p a y o u t . Th eS en a t eF in an c e Comm i t t e ea c c ep t edt h e5 p e r c e n tl e v e l r e comm end edby t h eHou s e comm i t t e e . �4 O nD ecembe r6 , 1969 ,S ena t o rPe r c yin af l o o ram e ndm en t w h i c hw a s pas s e d , r a i s edt h el e v e lf rom5 p er c e n tto 6 pe r c e n t,wh ich w a s ac ce p t e dby th e con f e r e n c e on t h e S en a to r Pe r c yexPl a in edh i s ac t ion w a sb a sedm a in ly o~~i o ~ n ion o fM r. P e te rG .P e te r s o n , Ch a i rm an o ft h eComm i s s ion on F o u n d a t ion s andP r i v a t e Ph ilan th ropy, who s u gg e stedth a t ap r o p e rr a t e o fr e t u r nf o rfoun d a t i o n swou ld a l lows u ch e n t i t i e st op a y o u tb e twe en 6 and 8p e r c e n ta n n u a l l y . Thu s ,t h e6 p e rc e n tp ayou tr equ i r em e n tr e p r e s e n t s a lO a p e r c e n ti n c r e a s ei nt h em in imum i n i t i a l l yp ropo s edbyt h eT r e a s u r y , and ,i na d d i t i o n ,i t i sp r em i s edupon andr e f l e c t st h ei n a c c u r a t ec o n c l u s i o n s o ft h eP e t e r s o nr e p o r t . I ti si n t e r e s t i n gt on o t et h a t ,i ni n t r o d u c i n gh i s f l o o ram endm en t , S e n a t o rP e r cy f u r t h e rst a t e dt h a t ,mo r e im p o r t a n tt h a n t h ep a r t i c u l a rp e r c e n t a g e s ,a r et h ea s sump t ion s on wh i ch t h ep e r c e n t a g e s h o u l db eb a s e d : "Th ep ayou tr equ i r em en ts h o u l db eh i g h enough t or e q u i r e th em( p r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s )t oi n v e s tt h e i rfund sp r o d u c t i v e l y . Th ep e r c e n t a g e s h o u l dn o tb es oh i g ha st oamoun tt oa d e l a y e dd e a t hs e n t e n c e . " To i l l u s t r a t eo u r conce rn sw i t ht h ep ayou tp r o v i s i o n , Iw i l lu s et h e e x p e r i e n c eo ft h eK e l logg Found a t ion a sar e p r e s e n t a t i v ec a s e . Ou r foun d e r ,W . K . K e l l o g g ,r e a l i z e da t o t a lt a xb e n e f i t( in com e ,g i f t , and e s t a t e )o fa p p r o x im a t e l y$364 ,000 on g i f t so f$45 m i l l i o n wh i ch h em ad et o andi nb e h a l fo ft h eFound a t ion . F rom t h a t$45 m i l l i o nt h eK e l logg Found a t ion h a sd i s t r i b u t e di ne x c e s so f$272 ~i ion f o rc h a r i t a b l epu rpo s e s andt h e t o t a lf a i rm a rk e t v a l u eo ft h ea s s e t st o d a yi sa p p r o x im a t e l y$576 m i l l i o n . Th e t o t a lo ft h e s ea s s e t sa re m a in ta ined onb e h a l fo ft h eF o u n d a t ion i ntwos e p a r a t e po r t f o l i o s ,wh i ch w er e f e rt oa s" K e l logg " and "D i v e r s i f i e d . " Th eK e l l ogg po r tfo lio c o n s i s t se n t i re l yo f K e l l o gg C o .s t o ckw i t h av a l u eo f$529 m i l l i o n . T he D ive r s i f i e d po r tf o l i ocon s is t so fs toc k s , bo n d s , andot h e ri n t e r e s t b e a r i n g �·. 5 investments and has an approximate value of $47 million. Through the years, Kellogg has consistently outperformed the Diversified portfolio which is used to measure the merits of diversification. A principal contention reflected in the Peterson report was that the portfolios of private foundations had not produced the rate of return thought to have been produced by mutual funds. By any measure of return, the Kellogg Foundation has outproduced mutual funds for the period covered by the Peterson report and has continued to do so since. For example, in the last 7 years the Kellogg Foundation's income, because of holdings in the Kellogg Co., has continued to be substantially greater than it would have been had its income been derived entirely from diversified investments, The increase in income for our 1972 tax year compared to 1966 was 66.5 percent for the Kellogg holding as compared to an increase of 12.8 percent on the foundation's diversified portfolio. It is evident that the sale of Kellogg stock and the di versi fication of funds would result in a lower return to charity over the years. Year Ended August 31 Kellogg Net Income From Kellogg Stock 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 $11,272,650 12,177,062 14,438,092 14,890,298 17,606,034 17,349,265 18,775,544 %Increase Over 1967 8.0% 28.0 32.0 56.1 53.9 66.5 Diversified Foundation Income From Other Investments $1,852,705 1,954,008 1,834,420 1,831,344 1,711,651 1,941,018 2,090,946 %Increase Over 1967 5.4% (.9) (1.1) (7.6) 4.7 12.8 Not only was the Peterson report incorrect in regard to performance, but its premise that a pegged payout requirement would be good for charity is also wrong. For example, had the minimum distribution rule been in effect �6 at 6 percent from 1934, when the t r us t cons i s t ed of 221,000 shares of Kel l ogg stock, with a then mar ket value of $38 milli on, the foll owing would have occurred: 1. From 1934 through 1972, the trust made an actual distribution of $222 million. Had the minimum di s t rib ut i on rule been applicable, distributions of $259 million ( or an increas e of $37 million) would have been made; 2. To meet that payout requirement, the trust would have had to sell the equivalent of 18 million shares with a market value of $265 million; t he r e f or e , the trust's holding would have been reduced to a market value of $265 million; and thus 3. The short-term higher return to charity of $37 million would have cost $265 million in corpus value, thereby reducing the current size of the trust by 50 percent. Further, for 1973-74, the distribution from the reduced assets would have been only $10 million rather than the $20 million which will in fact be distributed . Wi th 3 years of experience under the 1969 law, there has been time to examine how section 4942 will operate to undermine overall foundation grants, and there has been the opportunity to further examine the assumptions of the Peterson report. For this purpose, seven Foundations* commissioned a s tudy by Dr. Norman B. Ture entit led "The Impact of the Mi ni mum Distribution Rule on Foundations" . This is the s tudy to which I referred in my introductory *The Hormel Foun dat i on , the Kel l og g Foundation, the Kres ge Foundation, the Lilly Foundation, the McClellan Foundation, the Pew Memorial Trust, and the Woodruff Foundat ion . / �7 r em a rk s . T h ef i n d i n g sand c o n c l u s i o n so ft h a ts t u d y ,a sb r i e f l ysumm a r i z ed i ni t sow nl angu ag ea r ea sf o l l ow s : i~s anym i n im um d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ewh i ch i g n o r e st h ef o u n d a t i o n ' sr a t eo f r e t u r nw i l lh av e ah i g h l yd i f f e r e n t i a l ,d i s c r im i n a t o r yandp o s s i b l y c a p r i c i o u simp a c to n found a t ion sando nt h e i rl o n g t e rmc a p a c i t yt os u p p o r t c h a r i t i e s . S e cond ,t h e(P e t e r s o nComm i s s ion ) c o n t e n t i o nt h a tt h einv e s tm en tp e r fo rm an c e o ff o u n d a t i o n si sr e l a t i v e l ypoo ri sb a s e do ni n a d e q u a t ei n f o rm a t i o nand i n a p p r o p r i a t es t a t i s t i c a lm e a su r e ; t h er e c o r d so ffound a t ion sf o rwh i ch d a t aw a s a v a i l a b l ei nt h ep r e p a r a t i o no ft h i s(Tu r e )r e p o r tc e r t a i n l ydo n o ts u p p o r tt h i sc o n t e n t i o n . T h i r d ,n o soundev id en c ew a s adv an c ed (byt h eP e t e r s o n Comm i s s ion )t os u p p o r t t h ev i ewt h a tt h ea l l e g e d l ypoo ri n v e s tm e n tp e r fo rm an c eo ff o u n d a t i o n si s r e l a t e dt ot h ec o n c e n t r a t i o no ft h e i ri n v e s tm e n ta s s e t s . F o u r t h ,i t i sn e i t h e rr e a l i s t i cn o rr e a s o n a b l et oa s sum et h a ta m i n im um d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ew i l lr e s u l ti ns i g n i f i c a n ti n c r e a s e si nt h er a t eo f r e t u r no nf o u n d a t i o ni n v e s tm e n t s . F i n a l l y ,t h e(Tu r e )r e p o r tcon c lud e st h a tt h et a xs a v i n g sa l l e g e d l yr e a l i z e d by t h o s ee s t a b l i s h i n gfound a t ion sa r e ,i na l ll i k e l i h o o d ,v e ry sm a l l . Found a t ion d i s t r i b u t i o n st oc h a r i t yh av er e p r e s e n t e da s i z e a b l eamoun to fb e n e f i t s r e l a t i v et ot h efo r egon et a xr e v e n u e s . F i n a l l y ,T h eP e t e r s o nR epo r ta s sum edt h a tt h ec h a r i t a b l es e r v i c e swh i ch af o u n d a t i o nno rm a l ly s u p p o r t sw i l ln o tr i s ei nc o s tany f a s t e rt h a nt h e / �8 general rate of inflation and for that purpose assumed a rate of inflation of 2 percent. The report's assumption is wrong, for it completely disregards the fact that the organizations supported by foundations have little possibility of significant gains in productivity. Let me cite a few quick examples. Higher education is a labor-intensive service sector of the economy in which it is difficult to achieve the gains in productivity that are experienced in goods-producing industries. Educational costs per credit hour consistently rose more rapidly than the consumer price index from 1953-54 to 1966-67. Over the period as a whole, educational costs rose at an annual average rate of 3.5%, as compared with a rate of 1.6% for the consumer price index--a difference of 1.9%.1 The most noticeable feature of the budgets of all institutions of higher education is how fast they have gone up in the years since World War II. Total educational and general expenditures on current account by all institutions of higher education went up from less than $1 billion in 1945-46 to more than $7 billion in 1963-64. Total educational and general expenditures less expenditures on organized research have gone up, on the average, more than 7% a year at all private universities. The direct instructional cost per student over the period 1955-56 works out to an average annual rate of increase of 8.3% for all private universities. 2 1 Source: "The More Effective Use of Resources--An Imperative for Higher Education," A Report and Recommendations by the Carnegie Commission on Higher Education, June 1972, pp. 33-38. 2 Source: "Economic Pressures on the Major Private Universities," vlilliam G. Bowen, Reprinted from "The Economics and Financing of Higher Education in the United States," a Compendium of Papers Submitted to the Joint Economic Committee, Congress of the U.S., Government Printing Office, 1969, pp.399-439. / �9 In the period 1958-71, the average operating budget for medical schools increased from $2,056,000 to $8,475,000, an increase of 412%. The mean salary for basic science faculty and for all ranks of clinical science faculty increased 59% and 66% respectively.3 A major program concern and site of W. K. Kellogg Foundation expenditures has been the hospital field. The Foundation has assisted a wide variety of programs in community hospitals such as in recent support for coronary care units and the improvement of burn patient care facilities and services. The increase of such support by the Foundation has substantially paralleled the general rise of medical care and hospital costs in the United States. Such costs have risen at an annual rate of 11.8% between the years 1950-1970 and the expenses per patient day during the same period rose at an annual rate of 8.6%. 4 In conclusion, from the foregoing these things are apparent: 1. The analysis which led to enactment of the 6% distribution rule reflected inaccurate information and misinterpretation of the actual si tuation. 2. The 6% payout requirement mandates the continuing invasion of corpus by private foundations, an unsound practice in prudent fiscal management. 3 Bradford, Malt and Oates, "The Rising Cost of Local Public Services," National Tax Journal. 4 Source: Hospitals, J.A.H.A. �1 0 3 . Co s ti n c r e a s e si nt h ec h a r i t a b l es e r v i c e ss u p p o r t e dby f o u n d a t i o n s ex c e edt h eg e n e r a li n f l a t i o n a r yr i s e ,t h u sp u t t i n gp r e s s u r e on f o u n d a t i o n a b i l i t yt oc o n t i n u et om a i n t a i nt h e i rr e l a t i v ec o n t r i b u t i o nt os o c i e t y . Un l e s st h e6% m in imum d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ei sr e d u c e d ,i t i sc l e a rt h a t t h ep r i n c i p l e ss e tf o r t hi nt h eP e t e r s o nR epo r t and i n c o r p o r a t e di nS e c t i o n 4942w i l lp r o g r e s s i v e l yim p a i rt h ee f f e c t i v e n e s so f ev en e l im i n a t e~ n ~ f o u n d a t i o n sand o fth em ,t ot h ed e t r im e n to fs o c i e t y . I f p r i v a t ep h i l a n t h r o p yi st oc o n t i n u ei t sh i s t o r i cc o n t r i b u t i o nt o ~ i n l i f e ,ch ang e si nt h ec u r r e n tl e g i s l a t i o n i n c l u d i n ga r e d u c t i o n i nt h ep ayou tr e q u i r em e n t a r en e c e s s a r y . We u rg ey o u ra d o p t i o no fsu ch m o d i f i c a t i o n s t oi n s u r et h a to u rs o c i e t yw i l lc o n t i n u et ob e n e f i tf romt h e c o n s t r u c t i v ea c t i v i t i e so fp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s . Th ank you . � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1973-10-02_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony on the Internal Revenue Code of 1954. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given before the Senate Finance Committee Subcommittee on Foundations hearings on the minimum distribution rule (Section 4942 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954), October, 2, 1973. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan Charities W. K. Kellogg Foundation Speeches, addresses, etc. Legislation Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-10-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d95be1b5c97a0f7cd525a2a050f9164.pdf 091f6f4ebc1f241ad13495591965b010 PDF Text Text ... ORAL STATEHENT BY RUSSELL G. MAWBY I. INTRODUCTION ~M..- ~~~~~~ s Russell Mawby, President of the W.K. Kellogg Foundation of Battle Creek, Michigan. I am appearing this morning as Chairman of the Legislation and Regulations Committee of the Council on FouJdations, a nonprofit, membership organization whose membe D' some ~ Af o un d a t i o n s from across the country. include ~h ~n W--<- appreciate s the opportunity to testify this morning on S. 464, a bill of vital importance to foundations and their charitable beneficiaries. Wi t h ~he-5tibeGmm4 t~ee~~ermi s sio I will focus on the income payout issue; the bill also ~~ includes three useful technical changes. - These are addressed in my prepared statement. The Importance of Foundations As the members of the panel have already ges e~ ,,;.,....~c_ ' - foundations playa special and vital role in re- sponding to the needs of our society"-.f e . /q u e react quicKly to emerging social concerns; they forefront of adva ncing medical and scientific research; they nurture important new institutions; and y bar after year they also meet basic needs of the American L--:-- . t he i peop I e 1n e1r commun1. t'1es. �- 2 Safeguards on Foundation Performance To insure that foundations faithfully discharge their public trust, Congress has ~ enacted a compre- hensive and detailed set of rules regulating every aspect of foundation operations. In setting up this system of regulations, Congress explicitly and decisively rejected proposals to require foundations to go out of existence after a fixed period. In particular, the income payout requirement was specifically not designed either to erode the purchasing power of foundations or to restrict foundation investment policy. Impact of Present Law on Foundations Unfortunately, the long-term ability of foundations to continue to support the vast array of charitable activities to which they are committed is in serious doubt. Why? Because as a result of the high inflation and high interest rates of recent years, the requirement of present law that foundations distribute their entire current income is contributing to rapid erosion of foundation assets and is distorting foundations' investment policies. Present law requires foundations to distribute annually the greater of 5% of the value of their investment assets or their entire current income. The basic objective of this payout rule -- to insure that every foundation makes �- 3 - a substantial current distribution to charity -- is sound. On the other hand, under current economic conditions the requirement that foundations distribute their entire current ~ -k income ~~~ -~~ -~~~ delayed death sentence. ~ When Congress enacted the income payout rule, current yields on a well-managed, balanced portfolio were significantly below 5%; inflation had averaged bet e~n 2% ~ a 3% over the preceding decade; and stocks were growing in value much more rapidly than inflation. Today interest rates on debt securities like Treasury bills and certificates of deposit range from ~~~~~ 13% to ~most 17%; inflation persists at 10% to 12%; and real stock values have declined sharply over the last decade. Under these radically different economic conditions, the income payout requirement makes it virtually impossible for a foundation to preserve its future grant capability. While colleges, universities, and every other class of charitable organization can take advantage of the high yields available on bonds and other debt investments to help preserve their charitable purchasing power, foundations cannot. If a foundation continues to invest in a diversified {po r t f o liO including substantial debt holdings, it can expect �- 4 to earn high current yields, but will be required to distribute the entire yield and consequently can do nothing to offset inflation. If inflation persists, a foundation with such holdings will find itself shrunk to 1/3 of its present -already diminished -- size in 30 years. On the other hand, a foundation which wishes to preserve its future capacity to serve its charitable beneficiaries must skew its investment decisions to select its holdings largely from those which have low current yields. Unfortunately such investment strategies also carry significantly greater risk than traditional, more conservative and more balanced foundation investments. For example, many investment advisors are urging foundations to buy "growth" ".- stocks, real estate, commodities, and stock of foreign .", corporations, or at least to invest in securities with (./ /" nominal yields well below 5%. In a recent study (attached to my full statement) Professor Peter Williamson of the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth concluded that this investment strategy was simply too risky for most foundations. Consequently, the income payout rule presents foundations with a genuine dilemma. Traditional investment strategies result in rapid erosion of grant capability while alternative strategies involve inappropriate risks. As a result of these factors, foundation assets in real dollars have fallen dramatically ~~ widespread termination of foundations ~ there has been Meanwh "ie, the rate of creation of new foundations has fallen dramatically __ +- �- S. 464: 5 - The Solution S. 464 is designed to cope squarely with these problems by amending the law to remove the requirement that foundations distribute their entire current income, while leaving in effect the requirement that they distribute at least 5% of their assets' value each year for charitable / uses. The maintenance of the 5% distribution rule represents an appropriate balance between foundations' immediate support of current charitable enterprises and the very real need to maintain the ability of foundations to continue that support in the future. reasonable one. n ee ~ .,~ ~ ~ ro esso~ i The 5 % level is a 1 ~~~ i mson~ ~ indicates that, over the period 1926 to 1979, the real return on a balanced portfolio s u eh a s h os e s e~ e c t e c o l l e ges and univers j,t ::i:e-s was approximately 4.5%. t by In more recent years the real return has been significantly below that figure. Consequently, a payout requirement of 5% fixes foundation distributions to charity somewhat above the full real return on their assets. On the other hand, by eliminating the income payout rule, S. 464 eliminates an artificial constraint imposed on foundation investment decisions by the tax law, and removes unintended by Congress in Foundations 464 as a way of protecting the lon g ability of foundations to serve society. t~ �S t a t em e n tb y MAR 25198 1 RUSSELL G . MAWBY C h a i rm a n , L e g i s l a t i o na n dR e g u l a t i o n sC omm i t t e e C o u n c i lo nF o u n d a t i o n s b e f o r e S u b c omm i t t e eo nT a x a t i o na n dD e b tM a n a g em e n t C omm i t t e eo nF i n a n c e U n i t e dS t a t e sS e n a t e 1 0 : 0 0 a .m . ,M a r c h 3 1 ,1 9 8 1 ~ shin ton, D .C . �SUMMARY Foundations playa special and vital role in responding to the needs of our society. Unfortunately, the ability of foundations to continue to support charitable activities is in serious doubt. From 1972 to 1979 the real value of foundation assets fell by nearly 40%, and from 1970 to 1979 foundation grants fell from 9.2% to 5.2% of all charitable contributions. As a result of high interest rates and high inflation, the requirement of current law that foundations distribute their entire current income has contributed significantly to this erosion of foundations" ability to serve the public. While all other classes of charitable organizations can use the high yields available on certificates of deposit and other debt securities to try to preserve their charitable purchasing power against the inroads of inflation, foundations cannot. Consequently, foundations must either accept the rapid erosion of their grant capability or skew their investment decisions in favor of more risky investment strategies offering the chance o .c i~ appreciation. . I Neither of these damaging results was intended by Congress when it enacted the payout rule in 1969. In :fact, in 1969 Congress specifically rejected a proposal to limpose a fixed duration on foundations' period of e istence~ S. 464 would amend the payout requirement . to eliminate the damaging effects of current law. Specifically, S. 464 would eliminate the requirement that foundations distribute their entire current income while leaving in effect the requirement that they distribute annually 5% of the value of their investment assets. By maintaining the 5% payout requirement the bill would insure that all foundations continue to make substantial current charitable distributions. Indeed, 5% is more than historical real returns on a balanced investment portfolio. At the same time, by eliminating the requirement that foundations distribute their entire current income, S. 464 would give foundations the investment flexibility which they need if they are to preserve their long-term ability to serve the public. �Statement by RUSSELL G. MAWBY before Subcommittee on Taxation and Debt Management of the U.S. Senate Finance Committee 10:00 a.m., March 31, 1981 Washington, D.C. S. 464: I. THE FOUNDATION PAYOUT REQUIREMENT INTRODUCTION My name is Russell Mawby. I am Chairman of the Legislation and Regulations Committee of the Council on Foundations (the "Council")., The Council on Foundations is a nonprofit, membership organization whose members include some 900 private foundations from across the country. The Council appreciates the Subcommittee's invitation to testify on S. 464, a bill of vital importance to foundations and their charitable beneficiaries. Current law requires that private foundations annually distribute to operating charities the greater of 5% of the value of their investment assets or their total current income, that is, total income less long-term capital gains. Because of persistent high interest rates �- 2 - and high rates of inflation, the requirement that foundations pay income above 5% of asset value seriously distorts their investment decisions and reduces the long-term capacity of foundations to support charitable work. s. 464 would eliminate the requirement that all income be paid out, but would not alter the present rule that foundations must each year distribute for charitable purposes at least 5% of their asset value. Because S. 464 preserves this 5% distribution requirement of present law, it insures that foundations will continue substantial current support of charitable activities. At the same time, it would give foundations the investment flexibility which they so desperately need if they are to preserve their continued ability to respond to human needs. II. WHY WE WILL NEED FOUNDATIONS IN THE FUTURE Foundations contributed 9.2% of all charitable gifts from private sources in 1970; by 1979 they accounted for only 5.2% of such gifts. This diminution in the capacity of foundations affects the entire charitable sector. Foundations give charitable, educational, cultural and scientific service organizations an alternative source of funds to government support. Foundations provide venture capital to the philanthropic sector by funding new ideas and new enterprises and by helping new agencies and new groups �- to gain a toe-hold. 3 - Foundations fund many of the sector's research and development efforts, and use their relatively flexible resources to meet society's emergencies and its newly perceived needs. Accordingly, in the measure that foundation grant capacity is less in the future than it is now, operating agencies and philanthropy as a whole will be more vulnerable, less able to react to emergency, less able to take advantage of opportunity, and less able to plan for the future. The early years of foundation giving in the United States offer dramatic testimony to the service foundations render. "I In those years, foundation funds helped free the South of hookworm, virtually eliminated malaria and yellow fever from l the United States, and reformed medical education to rank American health care wi th the world's best. I In later years foundation funding of science supported Goddard's early research in rocket engineering, the construction of the first nuclear accelerator, the development of the electron microscope and the oscilloscope, and research leading to our current knowledge of DNA which some observers term the single most significant advance in biology in this century. When television emerged, private foundations recognized its educational potential and gave massive �- 4 support. All 282 public TV stations received foundation funds for equipment, operation and other services, and one foundation alone committed $293 million to public TV in the 25 years beginning in 1952. Following World War II, foundations mirrored the society in responding to the aspirations of Blacks and other minorities to achieve full status as citizens and participants in the bounty of our society. There was a trend from research toward action in housing, education, employment and inner-city problems. As the decade of the 80's begins, foundations seem to be emphasizing regional approaches, working toward cooperation among themselves and with government. growing emphasis on comm ni~ There is a development and the preserva- tion and furtherance of neighborhoods and communities. At the same time, foundations have continued to support research at private universities and have sought to strengthen traditional institutions in their role as private alternatives to government-funded institutions. Foundations provide technical assistance and financial support to community groups of every kind; they grant funds for the special needs of the local hospital and the local school; they provide services for the preschooler and for the elderly. Foundations continue to support art and cultural activities as well as traditional social service organizations serving youths, the aged and all other groups in our society. �- 5 - The need for foundations to support innovative charitable activities will be as great tomorrow as it is today. It would, therefore, be shortsighted to apply so many foundation resources to current problems at the sacrifice of the capability of foundations to respond in the future as they have in the past. What foundations have done in the past suggests what foundations can do in the future -- if they have sufficient resources. III. FOUNDATION GRANT CAPABILITY IS RAPIDLY ERODING However, the rapid erosion of foundation grant capability in recent years threatens to eliminate foundations as a vital part of American philanthropy. This decline in the real value of foundation assets, and thus foundation grant capability, is documented by data presented in the most recent edition of The Foundation Directory and summarized in the chart on page 6. The chart shows the changes, for all foundations with assets of over $1 million, in both the nominal and real value of assets over the period from 1965 through 1977. These foundations account for 93% of all foundation assets and 92% of all foundation grants. As the chart indicates, foundations enjoyed a significant increase in both the nominal and real value of their assets from 1965 through 1972. However, from 1972 to 1977 the nominal value of foundation assets increased only slightly and the real value fell by 29.2%. �6 �- 7 While comprehensive data such as that contained in The Foundation Directory are not available for the period since 1977, data collected by the Council on Foundations in a recent survey of its members indicate that the decline in the real value of foundation assets has continued. From 1977 through 1979 the real value of the assets of the foundations surveyed declined by approximately 11%. Thus over the eight year period from 1972 through 1979 the real value of foundation assets fell by almost 40%. If the erosion continues at this rate, in twenty years the ability of foundations to support charitable activities will be only a quarter of what it is today. As these figures suggest, what is at stake is not the continued existence of ~ particular foundation, but rather the continued ability of foundations as a whole to support important charitable works. Because these figures take into account gifts of additional assets to both existing and newly created foundations, they demonstrate dramatically that the flow of new capital into the foundation sector has been insufficient to offset the erosion of the existing assets of foundations. In fact, as a result of the restrictions imposed on private foundations by the Tax Reform Act of 1969, there has been very widespread termination of foundations while the rate of creation of new foundations has fallen dramatically. This trend has been clearly documented in a study prepared for the National Commission on Private �- 8 Philanthropy and Public Needs, the results of which are summarized in the chart on page 9. The study examined the rate of creation and dissolution of foundations during the period from 1968 through 1972 in twelve key states, which together account for over 50% of all foundations. It demonstrated a sharp decline in the rate of creation of new foundations from 1968 through 1970. Over the same period, dissolutions of private foundations increased dramatically, to a level far in excess of the "birth rate" of new foundations. This data on foundation "birth" and "death" rates, as well as the sharp decline in the real value of total foundation assets, clearly show that new money flowing into the foundation sector is insufficient to offset the rapid decline of existing foundation assets. IV. CONGRESS NEVER INTENDED TO REDUCE FOUNDATION CAPABILITY The experience of foundations throughout the country indicates that the present requirement that foundations distribute annually all of their income is a major factor contributing to this alarming erosion of foundation grant capability. Indeed, foundations are being forced to spend themselves out of existence by their inability to reinvest any of the income they earn in excess of the 5% minimum payout amount. It is absolutely clear that Congress never intended that the payout requirement have this effect. During the decade preceding enactment of the payout requirement in 1969, inflation averaged only 1.9%. �- 9 - Fo u nda t ions Esta bl ishe d/T erm inated, 1968· 1972 . Cumu lativ e of 12 States - - - - - New Foundations Est ab lished 1,300 1.200 1,100 - - - - Existing Foundations Terminated ,, \ \ \ ,, , \ \ 1.000 900 \ , \ \ \ \ , \ 800 700 \ \ \ \ \ \ \ 600 , \, \ \ \ \ 500 \ \ 400 \ \ 300 200 100 '68 \ '69 \ \ \ \ ,-------- ......... -- \ '70 '71 - ........ ' 72 Year F rom "Anal ysis of F ou nd at ion Ce nter Da ta o n Crea tion, Di!<.<olution an d Recl assifIca tion of Prrvare F ounda tions, " Washingto n, D.C. , Oct ober 25. 1974. p rep are d by Cap lin &. Dry sdale and The F ou nda ti on Center in Washington, D.C. �- 10 It is not surprising, therefore, that in formulating the payout rule neither Treasury nor the Congress devoted significant attention to the effect which the required distribution of all current income would have in a highly inflationary environment. The Congressional debate makes it clear, however, that the Congress did not intend the payout rule to require that foundations distribute at so fast a rate as to erode the real value of foundation assets. Senator Percy, the leading sponsor of the minimum payout provision finally adopted, made this clear in the following statement: The percentage should not be so high as to amount to a delayed death sentence. A foundation with a well-managed investment portfolio should be able to maintain its size and to stay abreast of changes in the value of the dollar. However, the current needs of our society for philanthropic funds are so great that I consider it inappropriate to permit foundations to grow, in size, without making an adequate current contribution to philanthropy. A payout percentage which will permit a well-managed foundation portfolio to maintain its size while making a productive contribution to charity, represents an equitable balance between the pressure of society's current needs and the interest of future generations. Congo Rec., Nov. 24, 1969, S.15950 (Emphasis added.) Congress has demonstrated a continuing commitment to reevaluate the payout requirement to preserve this principle of nan equitable balance." For example, in 1976 Congress concluded that the 6% minimum distribution requirement, coupled with the requirement that this minimum distribution percentage be adjusted annually to reflect any increases in prevailing interest rates, "could have damaging effects on the continuing viability of many foundations." In response, �-1 1- C o n g r e s sr e d u c e d . t h er a t et o5% a n de l im i n a t e dt h ep r e v i o u s l y r e q u i r e da n n u a la d j u s tm e n t . I n c r e a s e si ni n f l a t i o nu r g et h en e e df o ra f u r t h e r r e e v a l u a t i o no ft h ep a y o u tr u l e ,f o ru n d e ri n f l a t i o n a r y c o n d i t i o n st h et o t a li n c om ep a y o u tr u l enow m ak e s i t v i r t u a l l yim p o s s i b l ef o r" af o u n d a t i o nw i t h aw e l l -m a n a g e d i n v e s tm e n tp o r t f o l i o . . . t om a i n t a i n i t ss i z ea n ds t a y a b r e a s to fc h a n g e si nt h ev a l u eo ft h ed o l l a r . " C u r r e n t i n f l a t i o nr a t e so f 10% o rmo r e m ak e n e c e s s a r ya r e v i s i o no f t h er u l et oe l im i n a t et h er e q u i r em e n tt h a ta l li n c om eb e p a i do u t . V . THE EFFECT OF THE PAYOUT REQU IREMENT INAN INFLAT IONARY ENV IRONMENT I ti sc l e a rt h a tC o n g r e s sd i dn o ti n t e n db yt h e i n c om ep a y o u tr u l et oim p o s et h e" d e l a y e dd e a t hs e n t e n c e "i t s p e c i f i c a l l yr e n o u n c e di ns e t t i n gt h ep e r c e n t a g ep a y o u t . Wh en C o n g r e s se n a c t e dt h ei n c om ep a y o u tr u l e ,c u r r e n ty i e l d s o na w e l l -m a n a g e d , b a l a n c e dp o r t f o l i ow e r e s i g n i f i c a n t l y b e l ow 5% ;i n f l a t i o nh a da v e r a g e db e tw e e n 2% a n d 3% o v e rt h e p r e c e d i n gd e c a d e ;a n ds t o c k sw e r e g r ow i n gi nv a l u e mu ch mo r e r a p i d l yt h a ni n f l a t i o n . T o d a yi n t e r e s tr a t e so nd e b ts e c u r i t i e s l i k eT r e a s u r yb i l l sa n dc e r t i f i c a t e so fd e p o s i tr a n g ef r om w e l lo v e r 13% t oa lm o s t17% ;i n f l a t i o np e r s i s t sa t10% t o12% ; a n dr e a ls t o c kv a l u e sh a v ed e c l i n e ds h a r p l yo v e rt h el a s td e c a d e . Th ee f f e c to ft h ei n c om ep a y o u tr e q u i r em e n th a sc h a n g e d �- 12 radically as the rate of inflation has risen from the 2% level prevailing in the 1960's to the 10% or higher level of today. This change is attributable to the fact that in a period of high inflation the nominal return on all investments increases. In the case of bonds and other debt securities, this increased nominal return takes the form of higher interest rates. However, only a fraction of this higher nominal return represents real income to the bondholder. The remainder is in fact merely a replacement of that part of the bondholder's capital consumed by inflation. Yet the total income payout rule requires that all this nominal income must be distributed. When examined in this perspective, it is clear that a payout rule that requires foundations during a period of inflation to distribute the entire nominal return on their assets is the practical equivalent of a requirement that they annually distribute a portion of their corpus. The inevitable effect of such a rule is to reduce their future grant capability and, continued over time, to reduce them to virtual incapacity. To the extent that foundations hold securities that reflect current high interest rates such as certificates of deposit, the present requirement that they distribute all current income has precisely this effect. The entire nominal return on such debt investments generally comes in the form of current income. Foundations must distribute the entire nominal return and can do nothing to offset the inflationary erosion of their assets and their future grant capabilities. �- 13 The manner in which rising inflation rates fundamentally alter the effect of the income payout requirement has been clearly demonstrated in a study prepared by the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation of Flint, Michigan. The Mott Foundation analyzed the effect of the current income payout requirement on the performance of a typical foundation portfolio with initial assets of $1,000,000 under conditions of 2% inflation and 10% inflation. For purposes of the analysis it was assumed that the foundation's assets would be invested 60% in common stock and 40% in bonds -- a portfolio mix reflecting the traditional investment strategy of foundations and other endowed charities -- and that the rates of return on these investments would be comparable to historic rates of return over the period from 1926 through 1978. The results of this analysis are presented in the chart on page 14. (Figures supporting the chart are included as Appendix 1). Example I assumes a 2% rate of inflation and depicts the changes in both the purchasing power of the foundation's grants and the real value of the foundation's assets over a 30 year period. This example corresponds roughly to the conditions that prevailed in the period before Congress enacted the 1969 payout re ~rement. Given this low rate of inflation, under present payout rules the real value of the foundation's grants falls by only $3,000 over 30 years -- from $50,000 to $47,000 -- and �EXAMPLE I T\\·o Pe rrcn r Inflation with Current Payout. 51 .0 00.000 1!l ilO If II I 199 0 S 48 .00 0 200 0 ~ ,~ n 1.r ll) l \ ::;')fj:.!.l HIlI :54 7 .0 0 0 20 10 - 14 - , ir ~ tnt Value of the Securities Portfolio" Purchasing Power of Income Distributed" ~ t~ . n 19 HO 19 80 s' ln.ooo ~ ~ (See Table III· Portfolio II) EXAMPLE II Ten Percent Inflation with Current Payout Requirement Value of the Securities Portfolio Purchasing Power of Income Distributed :;;88.0 00 S 1.0 00.000 .% 1.000 :3G90.000 542.0 0 0 D 1~ 19 90 20 0 0 :W lO D $477, 000 529. 0 0 0 1!)90 19 80 (See Table IV· Portfolio I) 20 0 0 D 5:l29.000 2010 EXAMPLE III Ten Percent Inflation with Five Percent Straight Payout Requirement Purchasing Power of Income Distributed Value of the Securities Portfolio S 1.000,000 "' ;iO .OOO 1980 S49.00 0 548.000 1!190 2000 "Porr Iolio Compositi on : fiO'7. stocks. 40'7(. bonds In itial Portfolio: :31 million :598 2 .0 0 0 $%4 .000 S!)4 7 .0 0 0 2000 2010 547.000 2010 1980 (See Table IV· Portfolio II) 1990 �- 15 the real value of the foundation's assets declines from $1,000,000 to $943,000. However, as shown by Example II -- which more nearly corresponds to today's conditions -- this picture changes drastically when the rate of inflation rises to 10%. The purchasing power of the foundation's grants is somewhat higher in the early years of the 30 year period precisely because the foundation is forced by the current income payout rule to distribute part of its corpus. However, because of this erosion of corpus the purchasing power of the foundation's grants falls rapidly. By the end of the 30 year period the real value of these grants is only $29,000. Over the same period, the real value of the foundation'Os assets has fallen from $1,000,000 to $329,000. Finally, Example III shows that the proposed modification of the payout requirement would significantly reduce this erosion of foundation grant capability . in an inflationary economy. Under the proposed payout requirement the foundation would be required to distribute an amount equal to 5% of the value of its investment assets and could use income in excess of 5% to preserve the charitable purchasing power of its grants. Under this rule the foundation would be able largely to offset the effect of continued 10% inflation. Indeed, the purchasing power of the foundation's grants would be only $3,000 less at the end of the 30 year period than at the beginning, having fallen from $50,000 to $47,000. �- 16 I ti sa l s oim p o r t a n tt op o i n to u tt h a ti f , a sw e a l lh o p e ,t h er a t eo fi n f l a t i o nf a l l ss h a r p l yi n c om i n gy e a r s ,t h em o d i f i e dp a y o u tr u l eem b o d i e di nS . 464 w i l lc o n t i n u et oi n s u r et h a tf o u n d a t i o n sm ak e s u b s t a n t i a l c u r r e n td i s t r i b u t i o n st oc h a r i t y . I fi n f l a t i o nf a l l s ,d a t a o nh i s t o r i ci n v e s tm e n tr e t u r n sm ak e s c l e a rt h a tt h en om i n a l r e t u r no nf o u n d a t i o ni n v e s tm e n t sw i l la l s of a l l . F o re x am p l e , i f i n f l a t i o nf a l l sb a c kt o2% p e ry e a r ,t h en om i n a lr e t u r no n t h ef o u n d a t i o n ' si n v e s tm e n t sw i l lf a l lt or o u g h l y6 .5% ,o f w h i c ha p p r o x im a t e l y3 .5% w o u l db ei nt h ef o rmo fc u r r e n t i n c om e . B e c a u s et h ef o u n d a t i o n ' sc u r r e n ti n c om ew o u l db e w e l lb e l ow 5% ,e l im i n a t i o no ft h er e q u i r em e n tt h a tf o u n d a t i o n s d i s t r i b u t ec u r r e n ti n c om ei ne x c e s so f 5% w o u l dh a v ea b s o l u t e l y. no e f f e c to nt h ef o u n d a t i o n ' sr e q u i r e dp a y o u t . Th ef o u n d a t i o n w o u l d s t i l lb er e q u i r e dt od i s t r i b u t e 5% p e ry e a r-p r e c i s e l y t h es am er e s u l tt h a tw o u l do b t a i nu n d e rc u r r e n tl aw . V I . THE INCOME PAYOUT RULE D ISTORTS FOUNDAT ION INVESTMENT DEC IS IONS I ni n f l a t i o n a r yp e r i o d s ,t h e .r e q u i r em e n tt h a t f o u n d a t i o n sp a y o u tt h e i re n t i r ec u r r e n ti n c om eh a sa n o t h e r h a rm f u le f f e c tn o ti n t e n d e dby C o n g r e s s-i t d i s t o r t s f o u n d a t i o ni n v e s tm e n td e c i s i o n sa n de n c o u r a g e sf o u n d a t i o n s t oa b a n d o nt r a d i t i o n a l ,p r u d e n ti n v e s tm e n ts t r a t e g i e si n f a v o ro fmo r e r i s k yi n v e s tm e n t s . Th em e c h a n i sm t h r o u g h w h i c h t h i so c c u r si sq u i t es im p l e . U n d e rc u r r e n tl awa f o u n d a t i o nt h a tw i s h e s t op r e s e r v ei t sf u t u r eg r a n tc a p a b i l i t y h a sa s t r o n gi n c e n t i v et ol im i ti t sc u r r e n ti n c om et oa n �- 17 amount equal to the 5% minimum distribution requirement, and to seek to realize the remainder of its total return in the form of long-term capital appreciation. To accomplish this goal, the foundation must invest a greater portion of its total assets in stocks and other assets offering the possibility of capital appreciation. However, it is well established that the risk associated with such equity investments is significantly greater than that associated with bonds and other debt securities. Indeed, a frequently, cited historical study of investments compares standard indices and concludes that common stock investments have involved risk four times as great as bond investments.* -I Moreover, there are risks in anY"lOng tterm investment strategy which forces foundations toward an unbalanced approach. It is better if foundations are free to adQpt a prudent balanced strategy combining some fixed income investments and some equity investments. Statistical data are not available to suggest the extent to which foundations have adopted such higher risk investment strategies. However, it is known that investment advisors are recommending such strategies to their foundation clients; suggesting, for example, such nontraditional investments as call options, deep discount bonds, commodities, timber holdings and foreign equity investments. It is also clear that the present payout rule provides a strong incentive for foundations to accept this advice. By thus encouraging foundations to assume greater * Ibbotson and Sinquefield, "Stocks, Bonds, Bills, and Inflation (1926-1978)," p. 23. �- 18 risk, the present payout rule is further jeopardizing their future grant capability. Commenting on this dilemma, Professor of Business Administration, J. Peter Williamson of Dartmouth College and the University of Virginia writes, "Long-term bonds, and from time to time short-term instruments, offer high current income coupled with declining real capital value. Common stocks offer significantly lower current income coupled with a reduced likelihood of loss of real capital value. The foundation seeking the greatest chance of maintaining the purchasing power of its investments will be driven to the lowest yielding cornmon stocks, which generally constitute the most risky securities available. The foundation choosing a prudent balance between risk and return has been forced in recent years to accept a higher current income and a substantial deterioration in real capital value. What the distribution requirement in Section 4942 has aone is to create a situation in which the only chance a private foundation has of minimizing capital depreciation is to pursue an extraordinarily high risk investment strategy. Any reasonable balance between risk and return must lead inevitably to erosion of the real value of the portfolio. There is no logic in a distribution rule that forces this choice upon a private foundation. If the purpose of the legislation is to prevent this imbalance between growth and distribution, then the minimum investment return rule alone would serve that purpose without the perverse results of the requirement that current income be distributed," A copy of a recent study by Professor Williamson of the impact of the payout requirement on foundations is attached as Exhibit II. �- 19 W h i l e c o l l e g e s ,u n i v e r s i t i e sa n da l lo t h e rt a x e x em p ti n s t i t u t i o n sc a nt a k ea d v a n t a g eo ft h eh i g hy i e l d s a v a i l a b l eon b o n d sa n do t h e rs im i l a ri n v e s tm e n t st od e f e n d t h e i rc h a r i t a b l ep u r c h a s i n gp ow e ra g a i n s ti n f l a t i o nw h i l e s t i l lm a i n t a i n i n g a na d e q u a t ec u r r e n tc h a r i t a b l ep r o g r am , f o u n d a t i o n sc a n n o t . Th er e q u i r em e n tt h a ta l li n c om eb e d i s t r i b u t e dh a sb r o u g h ta b o u t ,t h e r e f o r e ,a na r t i f i c i a l a n dw h o l l yu n i n t e n d e d-i n v e s tm e n tc o n s t r a i n tw h i c hi s d i s t o r t i n gf o u n d a t i o ni n v e s tm e n td e c i s i o n sa n dw h i c hs h o u l d b ee l im i n a t e d . V I I . EFFECT OF THE PROPOSED PAYOUT RULE ON FOUNDAT ION GRANTS U n d e rt h ep a y o u tr u l eem b o d i e di nS . 464 f o u n d a t i o n sw o u l dc o n t i n u et ob er e q u i r e dt od i s t r i b u t ea n am o u n t e q u a lt o5% o ft h ev a l u eo ft h e i ri n v e s tm e n ta s s e t s . How ev e r , t h e yw o u l d n o tb er e q u i r e dt od i s t r i b u t et h e i re n t i r e c u r r e n ti n c om e . Th e 5% d i s t r i b u t i o nr e q u i r em e n tw o u l d e n s u r et h a tf o u n d a t i o n sc o n t i n u et om ak e s u b s t a n t i a lc u r r e n t d i s t r i b u t i o n st oc h a r i t y . I n d e e d ,h i s t o r i c a l l yt h i s5% d i s t r i b u t i o nr e q u i r em e n te x c e e d st h ea v e r a g er e a li n c om ew h i c h af o u n d a t i o nc o u l dh a v ee a r n e do v e rt h ep a s t 50 y e a r so na b a l a n c e dw e l l -m a n a g e dp o r t f o l i oo fs t o c k sa n db o n d s . P r o f e s s o r W i l l i am s o n ' s r e c e n ts t u d y ,r e f e r r e dt oa b o v e ,i n d i c a t e st h a t o v e rt h ep e r i o df r om1926 t h r o u g h1978 t h er e a lt o t a lr e t u r n ( c o n s i d e r i n gb o t hi n c om ea n dc a p i t a la p p r e c i a t i o n ) on a b a l a n c e d i n v e s tm e n tp o r t f o l i oi n c l u d i n gb o t he q u i t ya n dd e b ti n v e s tm e n t s w a s b e tw e e n4 . 0a n d4 .5% . W h e t h e r m e a s u r e d o v e rt h ep a s t5 4 �- 20 - years, 30 years or 5 years the average real return on a well balanced portfolio has been less than 5%. Thus, a payout requirement of 5% will ensure that foundations distribute to charity the entire real return they can expect from their invested assets -- and probably a little more. The extent to which the proposed payout rate would result in a short-term decline in foundation grants is difficult to predict. Certainly there will be some decline. But the scale of this decline should be seen in perspective. It is clear that certain classes of foundation grants would be unaffected by the change in the payout requirement. Grants by company-sponsored foundations, for example, would be unaffected. These foundations normally hold small endowments and pay grants primarily out of current contributions received from the sponsoring company. There are also substantial amounts distributed by other foundations that are essentially mechanisms for current charitable distributions of individual donations. These will be unaffected. Some endowed independent foundations may well choose to continue to pay amounts somewhat in excess of 5% of the value of their investment assets, either as a matter of program choice or because they are required by their charters to payout all of their income and/or to payout principal amounts, as well. In the aggregate, all independent foundations pay out now about 5.7% of asset value each year. If all independent �- 21 foundation giving was reduced to the 5% minimum investment return -- and, for the reasons stated above, the decline would not be the full amount -- the result would be a decrease in immediate contributions to the philanthropic sector of about one-half percent of total charitable giving, since all foundation grants account for only about 5% of all private giving for charitable purposes. This short-term reduction in distributions is clearly justified as a way of insuring that foundations can continue support in the future. Indeed, as we have noted earlier, the philanthropic sector would over time recoup the immediate reductions as payout increased as a result of foundations preserving their endowment value instead of quickly distributing corpus at VIII. cc~ er te rates. TECHNICAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE AMENDMENTS In addition to its principal provision amending the foundation payout requirement, S. 464 contains three technical amendments which will eliminate unnecessary administrative burdens imposed on foundations by current law. The Council on Foundations strongly supports the enactment of each of these amendments. Exception to Foundation Record-keeping Requirement For Small Grants Current law requires that a foundation making grants to organizations not recognized as public charities comply with detailed record-keeping and reporting require- �- 22 ments. These so-called "expenditure responsibility" require- ments are particularly burdensome for small foundations which often lack the administrative resources to comply with the requirements, and which as a result are simply unable to make many worthwhile grants. Larger foundations also frequently decide to forego small grants to nonpublic charities in order to avoid this burden on their administrative resources. As a result of this requirement, many small-scale but highly beneficial charitable activities cannot attract the foundation support they need to survive. In practical terms, the cost of this requirement must be measured in terms of the summer youth program, the community cleanup, the local drug abuse prevention effort which never happens because of a lack of foundation support. To eliminate this clearly unintended result, s. 464 would amend current law to provide a $10,000 de minimis exception under which a foundation would not be required to comply with the expenditure responsibility requirements if its grants, along with those of all related foundations, to a single grantee did not exceed $10,000 in a given year. This amendment would not in any way affect the substantive rules which require that every foundation grant, large or small, go to support a recognized charitable activity. Nor would it relax the expenditure responsibility requirements for large grants, where they are justified by the large amounts of money involved. Instead, this amendment �- 23 - would merely recognize that the record-keeping and reporting requirements which are appropriate for large grants are counterproductive when applied to small grants. A Workable Definition of "Family Member" The private foundation rules impose severe restrictions on the business relationships which may exist between a foundation and its "disqualified persons," and even inadvertent violations of these restrictions trigger substantial penalty taxes. Under current law, "disqualified persons" with respect to a foundation include substantial contributors to the foundation and all of their lineal descendants, regardless of how many generations separate these descendants from the original contributor. This rule can impose a great administrative burden on private foundations, the magnitude of which increases geometrically with each passing generation. For example, many of the country's largest foundations were established early in this century, and the managers of these foundations must keep track of hundreds of lineal descendants of substantial contributors in order to avoid inadvertent violations of the foundation rules. To eliminate this waste of foundation resources without undermining the effectiveness of the foundation rules, S. 464 would amend the definition of "family members," and thus of "disqualified persons," to include only children and grandchildren, rather than all lineal descendants, of �substantial contributors. 24 In those few cases in which more remote descendants continue to be actively involved in the operation of the foundation, they will still be treated as disqualified persons by virtue of being foundation managers or the children or grandchildren of such managers. Thus the proposed change will create no potential for abuse, and will increase the amount of foundation resources available to support charitable activities. Elimination of Unreasonable Administrative Requirement [TO FOLLOW] �- 25 IX. CONCLUSION Foundations strongly support the basic objective of the payout rule and they believe that the 5% minimum payout requirement should be maintained. In supporting S. 464, foundations seek only the elimination of the requirement that they payout such income as they receive above 5%. The ability of foundations to support vital charitable activities in the future as they have in the past is threatened by the present requirement that foundations distribute their entire current income. Elimination of this requirement would contribute significantly to the preservation of the future grant-making capability .of foundations. We must expect that the needs of the future will be as compelling as are the concerns of today. If we permit foundation endowments to erode, the charitable sector will be unable to calIon foundations as alternatives to government at special times of need. American charity then will have lost much of its flexibility and perhaps, over time, some of its freedom. Congress should enact S. 464 to forestall these consequences, which have resulted from inflation and which were completely unforeseen when the payout provision was enacted in 1969. �r I I APPEND IXI TABLEI TABLEI I To t a lAnnu a l Inv e s tm en tR e tu rn s ( 1 9 2 6-1 9 7 8 ) To t a lAnnu a l Inv e s tm en tR e tu rn s ( 1 9 6 9-1 9 7 8 ) Nom in a l Annu a l R e tu rn C lass (m e an l 8 .9% CommonS to ck s LongT ennCo rp .B ond s 4 .0% S e cu r i ty ennGov t . Bond s LongT U .S .T r e a su ryB i l l s 3 .20 /0 2 .5% Annu a l In f l a t ion (m e an l 2 .5 2 .5 2 .5 2 .5 R e a l Annu a l R e tu rn s (m e an ) 6 .4% 1 .5% 0 .7% 0 .0% = Nom in a l Annu a l R e tu rn C l a s s (m e an ) 3 .2% CommonS to ck s L o n gT ennCo rp .B o n d s 5 .8% ennG o v t .B o n d s L o n gT 5 .1% i l l s U .S .T r e a su ryB 5 .9% S e cu r i ty Annu a l In f l a t ion (m e an ) 6 .7 6 .7 6 .7 6 .7 R e a l Annu a l R e tu rn s (m e an ) · 3 . 5% -0 . 9% -1 . 6% · 0 .8% Sou r c e :S to ck s , Bond s .B i l l s . and In f l a t ion :H i s to r i c a lR e tu rn s (1926 -78 )I bbo t son& Sinqu e f i e ld .1979. TABLEI I I E f f e c to fa2%R a t eo fIn f l a t iono n6 0%S to ck 4 0%Bond Po r t fo l io sw i th ayou t s D i f f e r en t In com eP Th efo l low ingt ab l e si l lu s t r a t e th e e f f e c to fa2%r a t e o f econ s t an tdo l l a rpo r t fo l iov a lu eandth e in f l a t iono nth pu r ch a s ingpow e ro fin com ed ev e lop edf romth r e e6 0% s t o c k ·4 0%bondpo r t fo l io s .Th epo r t fo l io sa r einv e s t ed t op rov id eato t a lr e tu rno f6 . 8% ,w i thth e bond sr e tu rn ing 5%andth es to ck s8%p e ry e a r .Th e 8%r e tu rnf r om s to ck si sd e r iv ed5%f r omc ap i t a lapp r e c i a t ionand3% a shin com e .Inth ef i r s tpo r t fo l io ,th e c a shin com e f r omc r e tu rno f3 . 8%i sl e s sth anth em in imum 5%p ayou t r equ i r em en t .Th e r e fo r e,s om e en c ro a chm en to fth ep o r t f o l i o mu s to c cu randth e e f f e c to fth i sen c ro a chm en ti sshown inPo r t fo l ioI I .Po r t fo l ioIdo e sno tr e f l e c tth i sen c ro a ch m en t . I nth es e condpo r t fo l io,5%o fth ev a lu ei sd i s t r ibu t ed and1 .8%r e inv e s t ed6 0%s to ck s-4 0%bond se a rn inga t th es am er a t e so fr e tu rn ;andi nth e th i rd ,th e r e a lr e tu rn o f4 . 8%i sd i s t r ibu t edand2%i sr e inv e s t ed6 0%s t o c k s · 4 0%bond se a rn inga tth es am er a t e so fr e tu rn . A s sump t ion s : (1 )A l lpo r t fo l io sb eg inw i th$1 ,000 ,000inv e s t ed6 0% i n s to ck st or e tu rn8% ( 6%r e a lr e tu rnand2%in f l a t ion ) and4 0%bond st or e tu rn5%(3%r e a lr e tu rnand2% in f l a t ion ) . PORTFOL IOI A l l In com eD i s t r ibu t edI Yea r 19 80 1990 2000 2010 In com e $ 38 . 000 51 ,069 68 .632 92 .236 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f i s t r ibu t ed In com e In com eD D i s t r ibu t ed ( 1 9 8 0Do l l a r s ) S3 8 .000 $ 3 8 .00 0 51 ,069 41 , 8 9 4 68 .632 46 . 1 8 7 92 .236 5 0 .9 21 (1 )Th ec ap i t a lapp r e ci a t ionf romth es to ck so f5%p e ry ea ri sa s sum ed to b er e inv e s t ed :60% b a ck in tos to ck sand 40% in tobond s th e r ebym a in t a in ing th e60%-40% s to ckbondr a t io . PORTFOL IOI I 5%D i s t r ibu t ed ,1 . 8%R e inv e s t ed1 Y e a r 1980 1990 2000 2 01 0 Nom in a l V a lu ein V a lu e 1980Do l l a r s ,000 .000 $1 .000 .000 $1 9 80 .5 64 1 .195 .302 1 .428 .748 9 61 .5 06 1 . 707 .786 94 2 .81 9 In com e $38 .000 45 .421 54 .292 64 .896 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f To t a l In com eD i s t r ibu t ed D i s t r ibu t ed (1 980Do l l a r s ) $50 .000 $50 , 0 0 0 59 .765 4 9 . 0 2 8 71 ,437 4 8 . 0 7 5 85 .389 4 7 . 1 4 1 (1 )Th e to t a lr e tu rni s6 .8% f romt h epo r t fo l io in v e s t ed 60% in s to ck sa ta8% r e tu rnt2%in f l a t ion )and40%inbond sa ta5% r e tu rn .O fth eto t a lr e tu rno f6 .8% . 5% i sd i s t r ibu t ed .l e av ing 1 .8% t ob er e inv e s t ed . er a t eo fin f l a t ioni sa s sum edt ob e2%p e ry e a r . (2 )Th ( 3 )T h ed iv id end sf r oms to ck sp rov id eac a shi n c om e a rk e tv a lu eo f3%andth ein t e r e s t y i e ldb a s edo nm f r ombond sp rov id e sac a shin com ey i e ldb a s edo n m a rk e tv a lu eo f5%f o ra nov e r a l lc a shin com ey i e l d to ck s ·4 0%bond s ) . o f3 . 8%( 6 0%s ( 4 ) I t i sa s sum edth a t bond sw i l lp rov id ear e a lr e tu rno f an h i s to r i c a l 3% ,a l thoughth i si ssom ewh a th igh e rth r e tu rn s . V a lu ein Nom in a l V a lu e 1980 Do l l a r s S I ,OOO .OOO $1 ,000 .000 1 ,343 .916 1 .102 .480 1 ,806 .111 1 , 215 .461 2 .427 .263 1 ,340 .021 PORTFOL IOI I I R e a lR e tu rno f4 . 8%D i s t r ibu t ed\2% R e inv e s t ed Y e a r 1980 1990 2000 2010 Nom in a l V a lu ein V a lu e 1980Do l l a r s $1 .000 .000 $1 ,000.000 1 ,218 .994 1 ,000 .000 1 ,485 .947 1 ,000 .000 1 ,811 .362 1 ,000 .000 In com e $38 .000 46 .322 56 .466 68 .832 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f To t a l In com eD i s t r ibu t ed D i s t r ibu t ed ( 1 980Do l l a r s ) $48 .000 5 48 . 0 0 0 5 8 .51 2 4 8 . 0 0 0 71 .325 48 . 0 0 0 86 .945 4 8 . 0 0 0 t 1 )Th e po r t fo l io' sr e a lr e tu rni s4 .8% w h i ch i sth eto t a lr e tu rno f 6 .8% m inu s 2% in f l a t ion .O f th et o t a lr e tu rno f6 .8 % .4 .8% i s d i s t r ibu t edl e av ing2% tob er e inv e s t ed . �TABLEIV E f f e c to fa10%R a t eo fIn f l a t ionon60%S to ck - 40%BondPo r t fo l io sw i th ayou t s D i f f e r en t In com eP PORTFOL IOI Th efo l low ingt ab l e s i l lu s t r a t e th e e f f e c to fa10%r a t eo f in f l a t ionon th econ s t an tdo l l a rpo r t fo l iov a lu eandth e pu r ch a s ingpow e ro fin com ed ev e lop edf romth r e e60% s to ck-40%bondpo r t fo l io s .Th epo r t fo l io sa r einv e s t ed to p rov id eato t a lr e tu rno f14 .8% ,w i th th ebond sr e tu rn ing 13%andth es to ck s16%p e ry e a r .Inth e f i r s tpo r t fo l io ,a l l in com ei sd i s t r ibu t ed ;inth es e cond5%o fth ev a lu ei s d i s t r ibu t edand9 .8%r e inv e s t ed60%s to ck s-40%bond s e a rn inga tth es am er a t e so fr e tu rn ;andinth eth i rd .th e r e a lr e tu rno f4 .8%i sd i s t r ibu t edand10%i sr e inv e s t ed 60%s to ck s-40% bond se a rn inga tth e s am er a t e so fr e tu rn . A l l In com eD i s t r ibu t ed1 Y e a r V a lu e in Nom in a l V a lu e 1980Do l l a r s 1980 $ 1 . 0 0 0 . 0 0 0 5 1 . 0 0 0 . 0 0 0 1 9 9 0 690 . 449 1 . 790 . 848 2 0 0 0 3 . 207 .136 476 . 720 2 010 5 .743 .491 329 .151 P u r c h a s i n gPow e ro f In com eD i s t r i b u t e d ( 1 9 8 0D o l lB J 'S ) In com e D i s t r i b u t e d In com e s88 . 0 0 0 S8 8 . 0 0 0 157 .595 2 82 .228 505 .427 1 57 .595 282 .228 505 .427 588 .000 60 .760 4 2 . 9 5 1 28 .965 (1 ) Th ec ap i t a lapp r e c i a t ionf romth es t o c k so f 10% p e ry e a ri s a s sum edto b er e inv e s t ed :60%b a c kin tos to ck sand40% in to bond sth e r ebym a i n t a i n i n g th e60%-40%s to ckbondr a t io . A s sump t ion s : (1 )A l lpo r t fo l io sb eg inw i th$1 .000 ,000inv e s t ed60%in s to ck stor e tu rn16% (6%r e a lr e tu rnand10% in f l a t ion ) and40%inbond stor e tu rn13%(3%r e a lr e tu rnand 10%in f l a t ion ) . PORTFOL IOI I 5%D i s t r ibu t ed ,9 .8%R e inv e s t ed1 (2 )Th er a t eo fin f l a t ioni sa s sum edtob e10%p e ry e a r . Y e lU ' 1980 1 990 2000 2 01 0 (3 )Th ed iv id end sf roms to ck sp rov id eac a shin com e a s edonm a rk e tv a lu eo f6%andth ein t e r e s t y i e ldb f rombond sp rov id e sac a shin com ey i e ldb a s edon m a rk e tv a lu eo f13% fo ranov e r a l lc a shin com e y i e ld to ck s-40%bond s ) . o f8 .8%(60%s Nom in a l V a lu e in V a lu e 1 980Do l l a r s s1 .000 .000 5 1 .000 .000 2 .546 .967 981 .966 6 . 487 . 043 9 64 .258 9 46 . i l 68 1 6 . 522 . 289 In com e . D i s t r ibu t ed $5 0 .000 127 .348 324 .352 826 .114 In com e 8 .0 00 5 8 224 .133 5 70 . 860 1 .453 .961 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f In com eD i s t r ibu t ed 1 1 9 8 0Do l l a r s ) $ 5 0 . 0 0 0 4 9 . 0 9 8 I . 4 8 . 2 1 3 4 7 . 3 4 3 (1 )Th e to t a lr e tu rni s 14 .8%fomt h epo r t fo l ioinv e s t ed60%in s to ck sa ta16%r e tu rn110%in f l a t ion ) a n d40%inbond sa : ta13% r e tu rn .O fth eto t a lr e tu rno f14 .8% . 5%i sd i s t r ibu t ed .l e av ing 9 .8%tob er e inv e s t ed . I~ (4 )I t i sa s sum edth a t bond sw i l lp rov id ear e a lr e tu rno f l thoughth i si ssom ewh a th igh e rth anh i s to r i c a l 3% ,a r e tu rn s . I , I PORTFOL IOI I I R e a lR e tu rno f4 .8% D i s t r ibu t ed\ 10% R e inv e s t ed Y e a r 1980 1 990 2000 2 010 V a lu e in Nom in a l V a lu e 1980Do l l a r s $1 .000 .000 5 1 .000 . 000 .000 .000 2 .593 .743 1 6 . 727 . 500 1 . 000 .000 .000 .000 1 7 .449 .402 1 In com e 8 8 .000 2 28 .249 5 92 .020 1 . 535 .547 s In com e D i s t r ibu t ed s48 .000 124 .500 322 .920 8 37 .571 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f In com eD i s t r ibu t ed 1 1 9 8 0Do l l a r s ) 5 4 8 . 0 0 0 4 8 . 0 0 0 4 8 . 0 0 0 4 8 . 0 0 0 (1 )Th e po r t fo l io ' sr e a lr e t u r ni s4 .8%wh i ch i sth eto t a lr e t u r no f inu s 10%in f l a t ion .O f th et o t a lr e t u r no f14 .8% .4 .8%i s 14 .8%m d i s t r ibu t edl e av ing10%tob er e inv e s t ed . b �APPENDIX II Inflation and The Foundation Payout Rate J. Peter Williamson In the Tax Reform Act of 1969 Congress for the first time required private foundations to distribute for charitable purposes what was considered to be an appropriate minimum measure of income. Specifically, Section 4942 of the Internal Revenue Code calls for annual distribution of the greater of the foundation's actual current investment income or its "minimum investment return:' Initially, the minimum investment return was set at 6 percent of the yearend market value of investments, with a provision for an annual adjustment to be made by the Treasury, The rate, in fact, was raised as high as 6.5 percent in subsequent years. In an article in the Januaryl February 1976 issue of Foundation News, the author suggested that a distribution rate between 4.5 percent and 5 percent was probably as much as a foundation could afford if (he purchasing power of its distributions was to keep pace with inflation in (he nation's economy. In order to keep up with the higher rate of inflation in activities of the kind generally supported by private foundations, tbe �payout would have to be held at 3 percent to 4 percent a year. Keeping up with inflation is clearly d desirable goal. It means maintaining the purchasing power of distributions and a constant level of programs and social benefits. And it appears from the history of Section 4942 that Congress supports this goal. However, it takes only 14 years for a 5 percent inflation rate to cut the purchasing power of a dollar in half. Seven and a half years will do it at 10 percent inflation. Since the time of that article, Congress has taken a somew hat more realistic view of the relation between inflation and what a portfolio of securities can reasonably be expected to produce, and the minimum investment return has been fixed, effective for 1976 and succeed ing years, at 5 percent. So under present law a private foundation must distribute each year the greater of its actual investment income or 5 percent of the market value of its portfolio. The purpose of this article is to review the reasonableness of this present rule. Ten years have passed since the first payout requirements became law, and five years have passed since preparation of the article referred to above. What the experience of these years suggests is that the conclusions of that article were, if anything, optimistic and that although the concept of a minimum investment return makes sense, the requirement that all current investment income be distributed does not. The range of investments available to private foundations has not changed much for many years. The previous article observed that private foundation assets are mostly investments in common stocks, fixedincome securities, and short-term instruments. It is true that institutional investors in the United States have shown increasing interest in foreign stock markets and in real estate in recent years . Foreign markets, chiefly because of the steady devaluation of the U.S. dollar against some foreign currencies, have proved to be attractive and some foundations have found it worthwhile to expend the time and money necessary to set up a mechanism for maintaining a portfolio of foreign stocks and to work out with foreign governments an exemption from the usual taxes imposed on United States investors. But most foundations, including the smaller ones, are still somewhat reluctant to venture abroad for investment opportunities. Real estate presents a different set of problems. Achieving a reasonably diversified portfolio of real-estate holdings demands either an enormous total portfolio or opportunities to participate in pooled funds holding real estate. Although pooled funds have been available for participation by pension funds for many years now, opportunities for private foundations to invest in realestate pools are still somewhat limited. So foundation portfolios are by and large limited to stocks, bonds, and money market instruments. There appear to be no readily available statistics on the composition of private foundation investment portfolios. But there are available statistics on the composition of the endowment funds of colleges and universities. Each year the Investment Committee of the National Association of College and University Business Officers (N ACUBO) collects information on the endowment funds of NACUBO member institutions, covering at least half of all college and university endowment funds in the nation. The previous article reported that on average these endowment funds were invested 60 percent in common stocks, 30 percent in bonds, and 10 percent in short-term securities. The most recent data available indicate little change. The proportion in common stocks generally falls within 58 percent to 62 percent and the proportion in bonds falls between 25 percent and 30 percent. This allocation of investment assets reflects a generally sensible balance between risk and expected return. History suggests, and most professional investors are inclined to agree, that common stocks are likely to produce greater rates of return than are bonds and short-term instruments. At the same time, there is more uncertainty associated with common stocks than with bonds or money-market instruments. Bonds, while less risky than common stocks, present more uncertainty than do short-term instruments. And the dismal performance of bonds for Foundt";o,, Neu», March I.ipril 1981 19 �Table I 54 Years: 1926 through 1979 Compound At/g. Compound Avg. Annual Ratf oj Return "Real" Annual Rate oj Return Standard Be Poor's Composite ("500) Common Stock Index 9.0% 6.1% long Term High Grade Bonds 3.8 1.1 Treasury Bills 2.7 0 Rate of Inflation (Cons. Price Index) 2.7 many years now has encouraged some shin toward short-term insrru- rate of total return on long-term high-grade corporate bonds was 3.8 menrs. percent, and the rate on Treasury It is impossible to produce a "best" Bills was 2.7 percent. Over the same compromise between risk and return 54 years the average annual rate of and a "best': portfolio for all private inflation, as represented by the Confoundations. But the intuitive com- sumer Price Index, was 2.7 percent. promise that has led colleges and Adjusted for inflation, the "real" anuniversities to an average 60-30-10 nual rate of return on common stocks alltj>cation of their assets is probably was 6.1 percent: the real rate on generally satisfactory (or private bonds was 1.1 percent; and the real foundations. In the absence. then. of rate on Treasury Bills was O. special constraint such as that conTables II and III present the same tained in Section 4942. one might ex- statistics as does Table I, but for more pect a prudently managed private recent periods. Table II covers the 30 foundation to hold an investment years through 1979, approximately portfolio consisting of approximately the period from the adjustment of 60 percent common stocks. 30 per- the economy after World War II up cent bonds and ) 0 percent short-term to the present. Table III covers 10 instruments. years through 1979, approximately Tables in the previous article the period following the stock market summarized some historical rates of boom of the 1950s and '60s. The sigreturn on common stocks. long-term nificant change over time revealed by high-grade corporate bonds, Treas- these tables is, of course, the increase ury Bills, and inflation, taken from in the rate of inflation and the impact the work of Ibbotson and Sinquefield of Inflation on the real rates of return who have for some years now been on investments. tabulating and publishing these rates. If one were to take the 54 years of Table I in this article updates those history represented in Table I as a earlier figures. It shows that for the reasonable guide to future real rates 54 years, 1926-1979, the compound of return, one might conclude that a average annual rate of total return foundation invested entirely in com(dividends plus appreciation) on mon stocks and able to avoid paying common stocks as represented by the commissions and management fees Standard Be POOl'S Composite Index could afford to distribute 6.1 percent was 9 percent. The average annual of market value without impairing %0 Foundation Neu», March 1.4pri11981 the purchasing power of its portfolio and its distributions. An all common stock portfolio is simply far too risky, however, for most foundations. Although there is evidence that some foundations are being pushed towards a heavier emphasis on stocks, because of the difficulty in meeting the payout requirements of Section 4942 and still keeping up with inflation, a prudent balance is probably around 60 percent in common stocks, 30 percent in bonds and 10 percent in Treasury Bills. For this combination, without commission and management costs, the average real annual rate of return was only 4 percent. That is, if Table I is taken as a reasonable representation of the future, a foundation with a 60-30-10 distribution of assets cannot afford to distribute annually more than 4 percent of the value of the portfolio without impairing the purchasing power of its distributions. (For a 70-20-10 combination, somewhat higher risk than 60-30-10, the annual distribution. could have been 4.5 percent.) While Table II suggests a better experience with common stocks, it suggests a worse experience with bonds and, in fact, the average real annual rate of return on a 60-30-10 portfolio over the 30 years would have been only 3.7 percent. So distributions beyond 3.7 percent of market value would have impaired the purchasing power of a foundation's portfolio and its distributions. (The 3.7 percent becomes 4.4 percent for a 70-20-10 portfolio.) Table III, which covers the ten years through 1979, paints a dismal prospect indeed. Without distributing anything at all, a foundation with a 60-30-10 portfolio would have lost 1.3 percent a year in purchasing power. About the most optimistic conclusion one can draw from the three scenarios represented by these tables is that a private foundation with a prudently invested portfolio might be able to distribute 4 percent a ~. .- . �• • I j f year of market value and still hope to higher education, and other activities course, for cornrrusston costs and preserve the purchasing power of its supported by private foundations management fees. Statistics are availdistributions, at least in terms of the that do not offer the opportunities able for the actual performances of Consumer Price Index. This conclu- for productivity improvement that college and university endowment sion is a little less optimistic than that , one finds in the industrial and com- funds, probably a reasonable reprereached in the preceding article, mercial sectors of the economy, is Y2 sentation of how well private founwhich concluded that a 4.5 percent percent to 1 percent above the rate of dation portfolios have done. Unforspending rate offered a fairly good inflation in the Consumer Price In- tunately, there do not appear to be prospect of keeping up with inflation dex. Very recent experience may any comprehensive statistics on the in the economy. However, inflation seem to belie this conclusion. performances of the foundations in the economy generally, as repreThe numbers in the three tables themselves. Over the ten years endsented by the Consumer Price Index, above represent the performances of ing June 30, 1980, the average anis not quite the same as inflation in indexes, rather than the perform- nual total rate of return for 68 college the sons of activities supported by ances of actual portfolios held by and university endowment funds private foundations. There is good foundations or other institutions. (representing about 54.5 billion) was reason to believe that inflation in And they make no allowance, of 7.64 percent. This was about a half percent below the total rate of return on a 60-30-10 index for the same time period. The average real total return for the 68 endowment funds Table II over the decade was -.40 percent, so 30 Years: 1950 through 1979 that even had they spent none of their income over the decade, the Compound ..It/g. Compound Aug. funds would on average have failed "Rtal'" Annual Annual Rate to keep pace with inflation as repreRate of Return of Return sented by the Consumer Price Index. Only 25 of the funds achieved a posi6.6% Standard & Poor's Composite 10.8% tive real total rate of return, and the -1.0 2.9 Long Term High Grade Bonds highest real total return rate was 3.8 percent a year. o 4.0 Treasury Bills For the five years ending June 30, 1980, endowment funds did a little 4.0 Rate of Inflation better compared to the averages. For 93 colleges and university endowment funds representing over 55 billion in assets the average annual rate of total return was 8.1 percent while the corresponding return for a fund invested in the indexes 60-30-10 Table III was a half percent less. For this five10 Years: 1970 through 1979 year period, the average real rate of return was -1.1 percent. Twenty-five Compound Aug, Compound Avg. funds achieved a positive real rate of "Rear' Annual Annual RaIl return and the largest of these was Rate ofRtturn of Return 4.4 percent. Few statistics are available for the Standard & Poor's Composite -1.4% 5.9% performance of endowment funds -1.1 6.2 Long Term High Grade Bonds over very long periods of time. But the 15-year record ending June 30. -1.0 6.3 Treasury Bills 1980 for 33 endowment funds aggregating over $2 billion in assets Rate of Inflation 7.4 shows an average annual real rate of return of -1.5 percent, with only two funds achieving a positive real return Foundt,l;on NtTIJ5, March I :fpri11981 %l �/ s t o c k s ,3 0p e r c en ti nbond s ,and 10 p e r c en ti nT r e a su ryB i l l swou ld h av e T ab l eIV p rodu c eda nav e r ag ein com ey i e ldo f 5 . 5 p e r c e n t p e r y e a r o v e r t h e d e c a d e 10Y e a r s : 1970th rough1979 w i t ha c ap i t a ld ep r e c i a t ion inpu r ch a s ing pow e ro f5 . 8p e r c en t .T h e • ' f v t ' rag e C CompoundAug . om p o u n dA ug .. b e s t ch an c eo fp r e s e rv ing th epu r l "Annua lRa t e I n c om e Annua lRaJ l 'o f "Rea y i t ld Ap t n ' t cw l i 0 1 I o fAP fW t cW l ion ch a s ing pow e ro fa n inv e s tm en t po r t fo l iowou ld h av eb e enfoundin S t and a rd& Poo r ' s commons to ck s .And , ind e ed ,ap r i 5 . 4% 4 . 1% 1 . 6% Compo s i t e a t ion m igh t h av e su c v a t e found c e e d e d i n a t t a i n i n g a p u r c h a s i n g LongT e rmH igh pow e rl o s sb e low5 .4p e r c en tbycon 8 . 6 1 . 8 7 . 9 G r ad e Bond s c en t r a t ing on h igh e rr i sk g row th s t o c k s and g a in ing app r e c i a t ion in 0 0 6 . 3 T r e a su ryB i l l s ex ch ang efo rin com e .B u t th er e su l t 5 . 8 5 . 5 . 4 2 60 -30 -10M i x eg r e eo fr i s kto l e r ab l efo rf ew i sad e r t a in lyin app rop found a t ion sandc ov e rth e1 5y e a r s .T h eh igh e ro fth e b e tw e en3 . 5p e r c en tand4p e r c en t . r i a t ef o r m o s t . So th efound a t ion Th e r ei sa tl e a s t al o g i ct oar e - m tw or a t e sw a s1 . 6p e r c en tp e ry e a r . rud en tm ix tu r e o f a in t a in ing a p Th er e co rd o fa c tu a l endowm en t qu i r ed d i s t r ibu t ion m e a su r ed b ya s t o c k sandbond sw a s cond emn edto in imum inv e s tm en tr e tu rn ,on e e p e r fo rm an c e si nh igh e r edu c a t ion m a rn ingandd i s t r ibu t ingas i z ab l ein a ti s l a ck ingi nth er equ i r em en tth a t com s e em sth ent ocon f i rmacon c lu s ion th eandw a t ch ing r e a lc ap i t a lv a lu e s e r c en tannu a lr e a lr a t eo f th ea c tu a lcu r r en t in com em u s tb e d th a ta5p e c l in e . s th eto t a lr e tu rnp e r i s t r ibu t ed.A r e tu rni smo r e th anon ec a ns en s ib ly d T h ef i v ey e a r s 1975 -1979 h av e fo rm an c eo fbo ths t o c k sand bond s p rov ed-m o r es a t i s f a c to ry ,a s -shownin an t i c ip a t e . I fa5p e r c en tr e a lr a t e 5p e r c en t h a sd e c l in ed i nr e c en ty e a r s ,t oth e T ab l eV ,l a rg e lyb e c au s e th i sf iv e in twh e r e th er e a lto t a lr e tu rnh a s y a f t e ra l low ing fo r th ee f f e c t so f po e a rp e r iodh app en ed 'tob eg ina ta rn ed n eg a t iv e ,c u r r e n t in com e v in f l a t ion i smo r e th anc a nb ee x - tu in ti nth es to ckm a rk e r . e r yl owpo i e l d sh av ea c tu a l lyr i s en .Wh a t h a s ( einv e s t edfund so fp r i - y In l a t e 1974 t h es to ck m a rk e t p e c t edf o rth a t ion s , th en a r equ i r ed h app en ed i sth a t bo th s t o c k s and r e a ch edi t sl ow e s tl e v e li nm any y e a r s , v a t e found sh av eb e en d e c l in ing i nr e a l anda p ayou tr a t ea sh igha s5p e r c en tc a n bond sacon s equ en c eth ef iv ey e a r s ein com et h e yg en e r a t e f a l u ew h i l eth a i rth er e a lc ap i t a l v b eexp e c t edt oimp eendo f1 9 7 4 th roughth e romth o fth e found a t ion s .I ti sn o t un - h a sb e enr i s ing .Tosp endth ef u l li n - endo f1 9 7 9p rodu c eda nav e r ag ein r e a son ab l eth a tCong r e s sshou ldpu t com ef r omapo r t fo l ioh a sb e com ea n com ey i e l do f4 . 7p e r c en t coup l ed som el im i tonth eex t en tt owh i ch a a r ew a yt od i s s ip a t er e a lc ap i - w lmo s tsu a lr a t eo fap i t ha po s i t iv er e a lannu a t ionm a yr e f r a inf rom t p r iv a t efound es am et im e ,how a lv a l u e . p r e c i a t ion . )A t th d i s t r ibu t ion s,r e inv e s t ingin com eand T ab l e IVs h ow sf o rth et e ny e a r s ev rpo r a t ebond so f f e r ed v e ry e r ,co bu i ld ing up th ev a lu eo fi t si n v e s t - 1970 ec ompon en t so fto t a l h -1979 th s t an t i a ld ep r e igh in com eand sub m en t po r t fo l io .I tapp e a r sth a twh a t r e tu rn in com ey i e l d andapp r e c i a - c i a t ioni nr e a lc ap i t a lv a lu e .A sar e adi nm ind i ni t sr equ i r e - t Cong r e s sh t o c k sd e l iv e r ed su ion .Wh i l e commons l t ,a60 -30 -10po r t fo l iowou ld h av e m en t th a tam in imum inv e s tm en tr e - a f4 . 1p e r - p nav e r ag ein com ey i e l do rodu c eda nav e r ag ein com ey i e ldo f tu rnb ed i s t r ibu t ed e a ch y e a r ,w a s c en tov e rth ed e c ad e ,th ec ap i t a lap - 6p e r c en t and r e a ld ep r e c i a t ion in a t ionb eab l et om a in t a in p th a tafound r e c i a t iono f1 . 6p e r c en tay e a rw a s c f2 . 2p e r c en tay e a r . ap i t a lv a lu eo r ch a s ingpow e ro fi t spo r t fo l io no th epu tn e a r lyenought ok e epupw i t h ab l eIVandV d emon s t r a t e ,a A sT andi t sd i s t r ibu t ion sw i th as en s ib l e in sar e su l tth er e a lc ap i - p f l a t ionanda a t iondo e sh av eac e r r iv a t e found tth a ti tn o tb e t inv e s tm en ts t r a t egy .Bu fs to ck sd e c l in ed b y5 . 4 t a lv a l u eo r e edomo fcho i c eamongd i f f e r a i nf a b l etodomu ch mo r e th ank e epp a c e p e r c en tay e a r .Co rpo r a t e bond s en tcu r r en tin com el e v e l s .Long t e rm e r i en c e sugg e s t s p w i t h in f l a t ion .Exp r e s en t ed a n ev en mo r e ex t r em e bond romt im etot im esho r t s ,andf r a th e rs t rong lyth a tth e5p e r c en tr a t e c a s e ,w i t ha nav e r ag ein com ey i e l do f t e rmin s t rum en t s ,o f f e rh ighcu r r en t inS e c t ion4 9 4 2i stooh igh .Ar e a son - 7 . 9p e r c en tanda nav e r ag ed ep r e c i a - in com ecoup l edw i th d e c l in ing r e a l eg iv ingp r iv a t efound a - t epu r ch a s ingpow e ro fc ap i - c a b l er a t e ,on i o ni nth to ck so f f e r ap i t a lv a lu e.Common s t i on saf a i rch an c ea ts imp lym a in t a in - t f8 . 6p e r c en tay e a r .A po r t fo l io s a lo ign i f i c an t ly low e rcu r r en t in com e r ch a s ingpow e r ,p rob ab lyl i e s inv e s t ed60 p e r c en ti n common P l tJ15eTumt o Pag e24 i ngpu Z% Foundn t ion ~.~, Ma r ch /Ap r i l1981 . J ' , " �c ~ A final check on the reasonableness of a minimum distribution rate of 5 Table ·V percent of market value was run for 5 Years: 1975 through 1979 the 30-year period ending with 1979. On the assumption that S1,000 was invested at the end of 1949, 60 pert r ~ Compound Avg. Compound Aug. "Real" Annual Rate Income Annual Rate of cent in common stocks, 30 percent in YiLM of Appreciation Appreciation corporate bonds, and 10 percent in Treasury Bills, with a 5 percent disStandard & Poor's "'[)3ribution rate, the market value of the 4.7% 9.5% Composite 1.3% rtfolio would have held its own ( with inflation in the economy Long Term High through 1973. But from 1974 Grade Bonds -2.6 8.3 -10.0 through 1979, the purchasing power Treasury Bills 6.7 o o would have dropped below that original S1,000, to less than $700 by the 60-30-10 Mix end of 1979. As already noted. keeping up with inflation in the economy coupled with a reduced likelihood of appreciation. So the s pend-all- generally may not be good enough loss of real capital value. The foun- income rule may not be successful. for a private foundation. On the asdation seeking the greatest chance of But the rule is not needed anyway, sumption that inflation in the kinds maintaining the purchasing power of since the "minimum investment re- of activities supported by private its investments will be driven to the turn" distribution rule is sufficient to foundations is 1 percent a year above lowest yielding common stocks, which accomplish the Congressional purarion represented by the Congenerally constitute the most risky se- pose . su er Price Index, the $1,000 incurities available. The foundation ..---------------4....-~stment at the end of 1949 'coupled choosing a prudent balance between with a 5 percent distribution rate risk and return has been forced in rewould have maintained its purchasing power through 1972, with the cent years to accept a high current income and a substantial deterioration real value of the portfolio dropping in real capital value. What the disin 1973 and subsequent years, to a tribution requirement in Section little over $500 at the end of 1979. 4942 has done is to create a situation A belief that investment experience in which the only chance a private through 1972 is a better guide to the foundation has of minimizing capital future than experience since 1972 depreciation is to pursue an extraorwould support a minimum distribudinarily high risk investment tion rate of 5 percent as consistent strategy. Any reasonable balance bewith the expectation that a private tween risk and return must lead infoundation could distribute this evitably to erosion of the real value of amount each year and still expect to the portfolio. hold its own with inflation. But an A distribution rule that forces this 'expectation that the )'ears since 1972 About the Author choice upon a private foundation is are also a guide to what we can ex pect harmful to foundations and to the J. Peter Williamson is professor in the future would suggest that a 5 public they serve. What, then, is the percent distribution rate is too high. of Business Administration at the purpose of the requirement that all In any case, the Congressional purAmos Tuck School of Business income be spent? Presumably assurpose of limiting growth of foundaAdministration at Dartmouth Colance that a foundation will not hoard tions at the expense of current dislege. He is the author of a number its assets, piling up capital while tributions is served best by the "minof books and articles on legal, doing little for the public benefit. But imum investment return" distribufinancial, and taxation subjects and a foundation could, if it were willing tion. The additional requirement that has conducted extensive research to take the risk, invest largely in assets current income be entirely distribuon the financing and the investproducing little income so as to ted is not necessary as we have seen, ments of nonprofit organizations. maximize the likelihood of capital and has only perverse results. fD 24 Foundation NroJJ, March I Apri{ 1981 • � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1981-03-30_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony on Senate bill 464. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given before the U.S. Senate Committee on Finance for the Legislation and Regulations Committee of the Council on Foundations on S. 464, March 30, 1981. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Legislation Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1981-03-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4b7b631c511eeb2032248d5f0498f011.pdf 58871506ff384009487f70b9f14c3221 PDF Text Text ,. PEP PER, HAM I L TON 2\, S C H r::: ET Z A TTO R NEYS A T LA W ....A MES .. . MOO R E .JOH N B . HU F" F"~ K ER AON A t 0 M . OI E TRIC H H . L A W R E N CE F-"CX R ICHAR D M . R I I"4D L E.R ALL EN K . H AL P E RI N ER NE ST Q . W I L,SON P E"'i'E R C . W I L Ll AM ~ 12 3 SO UT H B RO AD S TREET / 776 F STREET , N . W . 4 WASH/N GTON , D. C. PHl LAD ELP H IA , F A . 19 10 9 (2 15 ) 545 -1234 20006 S U ITE 40 0 10 SO U 1'H M Ail " ET SC; L; A Rt: . HA R R I S B U R G , PA . 17 10 8 (71 7) 23 3 - e 4 8 3 ( 2 0 2) 46 7-6 5 00 BARB A RA ~ . W A S H S URN DRAFT S. 2475, A BILL TO A11E ND THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE OF 1954 TO r-10DIFY 7 H:G CHARITAB LE DIS TRIBUTION REQUIREME NTS I MP OSED UPON P RIV ATE FOUNDATIONS (TE L ~n NH1U M DI STRIB UTI ON RULE OF SECTION 49 42) Written Statement and Oral Testimony Presented to The Senate Cummitt e e on Finance on Thursday, April 8, 1976 By the Ad Hoc Cor.unittee on Famil y Found ations: The HOITilel Foundat ion The Kellogg Found ation The Kresge Foundation The Lilly Endo~nent, Inc. The Mac lellan Foundation The Pew Memori a l Trust The Jo s eph B. Wh itehea d Foundation PLEASE REPLY TO WASH IN GTON O FFICE �- 15 ( " A staff established to p:::-occss applications for $1,500,000 will be inadequate for $2,100,000; likewise, the expectations of charity built on"a year when $2,100,000 not be met when a lower year follows. lS distributed will One of the frequent challenges to the foundation is to engage in new and innovative activities. This means fuller exploration of the nontraditional applications and probably grant. a longer time between application and At any rate, the fluctuating minimums -- particularly at an unrealistic level -- will obviously be counter-productive to any d esize to get into fields requiring greater attention per application. This serves to prevent foundation managers from being efficient and frustrates the objectives of foundation grants. The final member of our panel presenting testimony is Drc Russell Mawby, Creek. Mi ch i g a n . President of the Kellogg Foundation, Battle �- 16 I amR u s s e l lG . M awby , P r e s i d e n to fTh eK e l l o g g F o u n d a t i o n , ·B a t t l eC r e e k , M i c h i g a n . Ii n t e n dt oi l l u s t r a t ea n ds umm a r i z e t h ec o n c l u s i o n so ft h i sg r o u p . F o rt h i sp u r p o s e , Iw i l lu s e t h ee x p e r i e n c eo ft h eK e l l o g g F o u n d a t i o ns i n c ei t i si l l u s t r a t i v eo ft h eg r o u po ff o u n d a t i o n ss u b s c r i b i n gt ot h i ss t a t em e n t . I t sf o u n d e rr e a l i z e da t o t a lt a xb e n e f i t( i n c om e ,g i f ta n d e s t a t e )o fa p p r o x im a t e l y$ 5 0 0 , 0 0 0o ng i f t sw h i c ht o d a yh a v ea t o t a lf a i rm a r k e t.v a l u eo fa p p r o x im a t e l y$ 5 9 0m i l l i o n . Th e t o t a lo ft h e s ea s s e t sa r em a i n t a i ne do nb e h a l fo ft h eF o u n d a t i o ni nw h a tm ay b es a i dt ob eD IO s e p a rR t ep o r t f o l i o s ,w h i c h Is h a l lr e f e rt oa s "K e l l o g g "a n d "D i v e r s i f i e d .11- KE ' l l o g g c o n .s i s t se n t i r e l yo fK e l l o g g - Comp any s t o c x'1 ,"1t ha v a l ue o f $543 m i l l i o n . D i v e r s i f i e dc o n s i s t so fs t o c k s , _b o n d sa n do t her in ter e s t b e a r i n go b l i g a t i o n sa n dp a sa na p p r o xim a t ev a l u eo f$ 4 8m i llion . K e l l o g gh a sc o n s i s t . e n t l you t .v -p erf 'oxm ed D i v e r s i f i e dw hi . chw as e s t a b l i s h e dt om e a s u r e t h ef r u i t so fd i v e r s i f i c a t i o n . Ap r i n c i pQ lc o n t e n t i o nr e f l e c t e di nt h eP e t e r s o n R ep o r t w a s t h a tt h ep o r t f o l i o so fp r i v a t e o ndt ~ on h a dn o tp r o d u c e d t h er a t eo fr e t u r nwhic hi t v i a st h o u g h tt oha v eb e e nprod uced b ym u t u a l f u n d s . By a n ym e a s u r e o fr e t u r n ,t h eg r o up h a so u t - .p r o d u c e dm u t u a l f u n d sf o r · t h ep e r i o dcovered b yt h eP e t e r s o n �- ~"I - R e p o r ta n dh a sc o n t i n u e dt odo s os i n c e . F o re x am p l e ,I nt h e l a s ts i xy e a r st h eK e l l o g gF o u n d a t i o n ' si n c om e , e ~ o ft h e ' F o u n d a t i o nT r u s t ' sh o l d i n g si nt h eK e l l o g g Comp any , ha sc o n t i n u e d t ob es u b s t a n t i a l l yg r e a t e rt h a ni t w o u l d h a v eb ee n ha di t sn b e e nd e r i v e de n t i r e l y w a s ~ p e r c e n tf o r o~ d i v e r s i f i e d n o~e n e t~ent . r e c e i v e df r omt ~ o~e Th ei n c r e a s e K e l l o g g h o l d i n g s a sc o n p a r e dt oa ni n c r e a s eo f4 . 7p e r c e n to nt h eF o u n d a t i o n ' s d i v e r s i f i e dp o r t f o l i o . I ti so u ro p i n i o nt h a tt h es a l eo f K e l l o g ga n dt h ed i v e r s i f i c a t i o no ff u n d sw o u l d r e s u J ti na g r e a t e rh a n d i c a pt om e e t i n g t h ep a y o u t e e~ ent o ft h eT ax R e fo rm Act ,o f. 1969a n dr e s u l ti na l ow e rr e t u r nt oc h a r i t yo v e r t h ey e a r s . N o to n l yw a s t h eP e t e r s o nR e p o r ti n c o r r e c t p e r f o r m an ce ,b u t ~ p r e@ i s eo fa ~ ~ re g ard t o p a y o u tb e i n gg o o d.fo r c h a r it yi sw ro n c , E 'o re x am p l e ,h a dt h emi .ni . rn um di . . st J i bl l t : i o n r u l eb e e ni ne f f e c t ,a t6 p e r c e n t ,f r om1934 whe nt h eFo n~ t n t h e c o n t a i n e d2 2 1 , 0 0 0s h a r e so o ~ n , f a i rm a r k e t v a l u e .$ 3 / , 5 7 0 , 0 0 0I t h ef o 1 1m ' l i n gw o u l dh a v eo cc u z e de (1 ) F rom S e p t em b e r1 ,1 9 3 4 ,t h r o u g hAug u st 3 1 , 1972 , t h eF o u n d a t i o nm ad e a na c t u a ld i s tL i b u t i o no f$ 2 0 3 , 0 9 2 , 1 9 6a n d i f t h em in imum d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l eh a db e e na p p l i c a b l e ,d i s t r i b u t i o n so f$ 2 4 2 , 7 0 6 , 8 1 1 o~ a ni n c r e a s eo f$ 3 9 , 6 1 4 , 6 1 5 )w o u l d h a v e b e e nm ad e ; (2 ) Th eF o u n d a t i o nw o u l dh a v eh a dt os e l lt h ee q u i v a l e n to f8 , 8 1 3 , 9 2 8s h a r e sw i . t .h.«ma r k et ;v a l u eo f $214 ,8 : :>9 ,495" h u s , 't h eP o u n d a t i o n ' s ' h o l d i n gw o u l d h a v eb e e nr e d u c e dt o . and ,t �-18 am a i k c tv a l u eo f$ 2 2 6 ,OG l , 3 5 5 ; a n d (3 ) Th eh i g h e r~et n t oc h a r i t yo f$ 3 9 , 6 1 4 , 6 1 5 wou ld h a v ec o s t$ 2 1 4 . 8m i l l i o n t h e r e b yr e d u c i n gt h ec u r r e n ts i z e o ft h eP o u n d a t i o n by l~o t 5 0p e r c e n ta n di n1973 t h ed i s t r i b u - t i o nu n d e rt h er e d u c e da s s e t sw ou ld b e$ 1 0 , 0 16 , 2 5 7r a t h e rt h a n $ 1 9 , 5 3 5 , 3 9 9w h i c h i t w i l ld i s t r i b u t e . A f t e rt h r e ey e a r st h e r eh a sb e e nt im et oe x am i n e how s e c t i o n4942 w i l lo p e r a t et ou n d e rD i n eo v e r a l lf o u n d a t i o ng r a n t s a n dt h e r eh a sb e e nt h eo p p o r t u n i t yt of u r t h e re x aM i n et h e t i o n so ft h eP e t e r s o nR e p o r t . s u b s cY i b i n gt ot h i s t te~ent ~ F o rt h i sp u r p o se ,t h ef o u n d a t i o n s h a v eh a ca ni n d e pe n d e n ts t u d y p r e p a r e dby D r . t to rm anB . T u r e . ·Th ef i n d i n g sa n dc o n c l u s i o n : ;o f t h a tr e p o r t ,a sb r i e f l ysu rmnar i . z e di ni t sow nJ cmgu2 . g e ,a . r e: " F i r s t ,a n ym in iEmn d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ew h i c h i g n o r e st h ef o u n d a t i o n ' s ra te o fr e t u r nw i l l h a v ea h ig h l yd i f f e r e n t i a l ,d isc rim in at o r y a n dp o s s i b l y ~ o in p a c t on f o u n d a t i o n s a n d on t h e i rl o n g t e r nc a p a c i t yt os u p p o r t c h a r i t i e s . S e c o n d ,t h ec o n t e n t i o ntha tt h ei n v e s t s e n t p e r f o rm a n c eo f t~ nd t on i sre la ti v e ly p o o r i sb a s e d on i n a d e q u a t ei n f o rma ti o nan d in a p p r o p r i a t es t a t i s t i c a l~ e e t h er e c o r d s o ff o u n d a t i o n sfo rw h i c hd a t aw a s a v a i l a ble i nt h ep r e p a r a t i o no ft h i sr e p o r tc e r t a i n l y d on o ts u p p o r tt h i s ont~nt on, T h i r d , no s o u nd e v i d e n c e~ d ~ ed t os u p p o r tt h ev i eH t h a tt h ea l l e g e d l yp o o ri n v e s t r : 1 e n t p e r f o rm a n c eo ff o u n c a t i o n si sr e l a t e dt ot h e c o n c e n t r a t i o no ft h e i rin v e s tm e n ta s s e t s . F o u r t h ,i t i sn e i t h e rrea l i s t i cn o rr e as o n a h l et oaSSUD et h a ta m ini . r n umdis c r i buti .o r i r u l ew i l lr e s u l ti n . s i g n i f i c a n ti n c r e a s e si n t h er a t eo fr e t u r non f o u n d a t i o ni n v c s t 7 l e n c s . �• F i n a l l y ,t h e( t h i s )r e p o r t ' c o n c l u d c , , 't ~t t h e t a xs a v i n g sa l l e g e d l yre a l i z e dby t h o s ee s c a b l i s h i n gfou n da c i .on s are, i na l lL ikeL ihood, v e r y sm a l l . F o u n d a t i o nd i s t r i b u t i o n st oc h a r i t y h a v er e p r e s e n t e da s i z e a b l e ~o nt o fb e n e f i t s r e l a t i v et ot h ef o r e g o n er e v e n u e s . " F i n a l l y ,t h eP e t e r s o nR e p o r ta s s um e dt h a tt h ec h a r i t a b l e s e r v i c e sw h i c h af o u n d a t i o nn o r n a l l ys u p p o r t sw i l ln o tr i s ei n ~o t a n yf a s t e rt h a nt h eg e n e r a lr a t eo fi n f l a t i o na n df o rt h a t p u r p o s e ~ed ar a t eo fi n f l a t i o no f2 p e r c e n t . Th eR e p o r t ' s .a s su I ! ' . p t i o ni sw ro r i c, f o ri t c om p l e t e l yd i s r e g a r c 3 . st h ef a c tt h a t t h eo r g a n i z a t i o n ss u p p o r t e db yf o u n d a t i o n sh a v el i t t l e p o s s i b i l i t y o fs im i l a rg a i n si np r o d u c t i v i t y . F rom t h ef o r e g o i n g , tw ot h i n g sa r ea p p a r e n t : On eI t h e u n d e r l y i n sp r e n i s eo ft h e6 p e r c e n tm i .n i . rnum d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l e i sp r e d i c a t e du p o nf a l s eassu rnpt . i .on si a n dt .wo, t h i sr u l emus tb e c h a n g e di fp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n sa r et o ont n ~ t ob e pe rm i tL e& t o s e r v et h e i rf u n c t i o ni nt h es u p p o r to fc h a r i t a b l eu n de r t ak i n g s , I ft h i si sn o td o n e ,{ ti sc l e a rt h a tt h ep r i n c i p l e ss e t f o r t hi nt h eP e t e r s o n Re o , ~ a n di n c o r p o r a t e di nS e c t i o n4942 . w i l l im p a i rt h ee f f e c t i v e n e s so fa l lf o u n d a t i o n sa n de l im i n at e m any o ft h emt ot h ed e t r i n e n to fc h a r i t y . T h i sp o s i t i o ni sn o t o n l ys u p p o r t e db yt h eg r o u p s' a c c om p l i s h I : ' .e n t sa n de x p e r i e n c eI h u t b yt h eT u r es tU d yw h i c h i n d i c a t e st h a tp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n sc a n g i v eab e t t e rr e t u r np e rd o l l a rt oc h a r i t yt h e nt h eF e d e r a l Goverme nt. N oo n eh a ss u g g e s t e di n c r e a s i n gt h eG o v e r nm e n t ' s T o l ei n ' a d v a n c i n gp h i l a n t h r o p y ,w h i c h i sp r e c i s e l yw h a tw i l lh a p p e n i ft h e6 p e r c e n tr u l eo fS e c t i o n 4942 i sn o tr e v i s e dd ow nw a r d . �. .'~, L~ ~ ~ . ~. " . --- r- __ ~. Ap r i l 1 ~ 1976 .~ , , .~ . . . . . - ,~ . , , . ~~. ' :' , ' : . . ~l . ~ . . . . . . -. .. . _ .7 ' - . ._ _ - _~ }::. ~ " 1~ ~ , ~~ H on .R u sse1 B . Long U n ited S ta t e sS en a t e 2 17 O l dS en a te O ff ice B u i l d i ng t on ,D .C. 20510 W a sh ing ~ . c ", - ."---. - -· · ! ; ; t,.: ~ " j . ~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~~ .~ • • ~ ",,,, , ---- - . - .~ -.- . - ., " . ~ , ~ ~ ~ "" _ _ ~. . .,~ .. . __ r.1>-_ 1 - .~ \ ::-":"," =-,. , . J --;. - ~ .. ~" ~ ': -; D ea rS ena t o r Lo ng : A s on eo fth ep r i v a t efound a t i o n srep r es en t e dinthe A dH oc C omm ittee onF am i ly Found a ti o n s ,w eapp rc i a t ed t h eop p o r tu n i t y o fte s tify ingb e for et h eS en a te C onmittec onF in an c e on A p ri l8 . W e w e r ep l e a sed t h a tyouat t en d ed th e o~t t e e s e s s i o n st h a t d ay wh en s t a t e me n t sreg a rd ingp ri v a t eph i l an t h ro py ~~ d p u b l i c ch a r i tie sw e r ep r e s e n ted. I ff u r t h e rd e ta i led i n f o rm a t i o n ou1db eh e l p f ultoyou and you r Comm i t t e e int h o s ede l i be ra t i o n s, p l e a sele tme know. T h es i tu a ti o n nowcon fron tingp r iv a t efoun d a tion sis ev en mor eu rg e n ti ul i gh to fth r e cen t n o~~ e en t by t h eT r e as u r J tha tt h er a t eimpo s edfo rt h ec u r r e n ty e a rv i l lb e 63 /4 pe r cen t . l { yb e st p e rson a lr eg a rd s . S in ce re ly, . • RGM : l g r .. 1 •.,.1-' . . /P " � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1976-04-08_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony on the bill to amend Internal Revenue Code of 1954 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation on the effects of modifying the charitable distribution requirements imposed upon private foundations, April 8, 1976. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Legislation Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1976-04-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/760362c8c017cfa408cc59e453cfdab2.pdf 46a5d2e50e2cabb5f62fdb06e827c9c4 PDF Text Text Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Johnson Center for Philanthropy Grand Valley State University May 27, 2010 Russell G. Mawby Chairman Emeritus of the W.K. Kellogg Foundation This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publication, are reserved to the Johnson Center Philanthropy Archives at Grand Valley State University. Preferred Citation: Researchers wishing to cite this collection should use the following credit line: Oral history interview with Russell G. Mawby, May 27, 2010. "Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project", Johnson Center Philanthropy Archives of the Special Collection & University Archives, Grand Valley State University Libraries. James Smither (JS): We’re talking today with Russ Mawby, who’s Chairman Emeritus of the W.K. Kellogg Foundation and has done quite a few other things over the course of his career as well. The interviewer is James Smither of Grand Valley State University. We’re conducting this interview for the Johnson Center for Philanthropy at Grand Valley State University. Mr. Mawby, can you begin by just by filling in some background on yourself? Let’s start where and when you where you born? Russ Mawby (RM): I’m a native of Kent County. Grew up on a fruit farm up north east of Grand Rapids, in what we used to call the East Beltline fruit district. (JS) And what year where you born? (RM) I was born in 1928. 00:00:55 (JS) Was your family able to keep the business through the 30s and the depression? (RM) Oh, yes. My folks were farm kids in that community. Both of them grew up on fruit farms and went to Peach Grove School, a one room school which was on the corner of the farm that now is famous as Robinette’s Apple Haus. So we were a mile south of Robinette’s at Orchard View Farm. My mom and dad graduated from eighth grade and then went on with life. �Fortunately, my dad was encouraged by the man he went to work for, Oscar Braman, was encouraged to get some further education. So in 1913 when he was 18 years old he got on the train in downtown Grand Rapids, had never traveled, got on the train went to Lansing, got off and walked to East Lansing to Michigan Agricultural College and took a ten week short course in fruit growing. That literally changed, I’m sure, the future on the Mawby family because it changed his perspective, my folks got married and then bought Orchard View Farm in 1925. So, we’re in the fruit business. Both of them were life-long learners and set an example on the importance of education. So the four kids, my two brothers, and myself, and my sister all went to high school at Creston High School. That was before consolidation. Family planning had us four years apart for sixteen years. My folks got us to and from school seven miles away every day, just the commitment. And the expectation then, that if we wished, we would have education beyond that. They were just great parents and encouraged every kind of opportunity for the four of us. 00:02:55 (JS) The period here when you’re going up, this is the era of the Depression and then the Second World War starts and so forth, how much of an effect did those kinds of things have on your family, or the business, or yourself? Or what do you remember about that? (RM) Well, about the depression years, they were tough. Less so, on a fruit farm in some respects. My dad was a good manager. He was an innovator in terms of the fruit industry, became highly regarded in addition to having the fruit production. [He was a distributor for orchard ] He specialized in marketing with the changing from the old-fashioned service grocery store to self-service and carts and so forth. (JS) Can you explain that difference for an audience that won’t know what you’re talking about? (RM) Alright, well, before we got to what we now call self-service grocery stores we would into the store [and be waited on]. We would go to John Heyn’s little grocery store next to the Polly Meat Market, adjacent, and we’d stop and John Heyn’s himself would say “What you would like today Mrs. Mawby?” and five pounds of sugar and two cans of peas, and they would collect it, charge you, and then take care of the next customer. Well, that all changed with the concept of self-service and so instead of taking in bushel baskets of apples where they would be weighed out for the customer, it was prepackaged, just as you see now. The stores sold five pound bags of apples and my dad was one of the first to do that. Many of the fruit farms were transitioned from the old dairy farm. When most farms where diversified and they had a few dairy cows, and a little bit of fruit, some chickens, and some pigs so that they weren’t specialized, and as they moved to expand fruit production they simply got rid of the cows, converted the basement of the barn into a storage, which was not really satisfactory. So again my dad was one of the early ones to build a fruit storage, first cooled by ice and then with refrigeration. He also became a dealer in, for Niagara Sprayer and Chemical Company and so got to have a great reputation in the fruit industry. That caused him to be engaged beyond just the farm and to share that kind of new dimension from the situation which many kids would have had. Similarly my mother was very much engaged. She was on the school board, she was treasurer, she was engaged in the community, and both of them particularly looked to the extension service of Michigan State �University in all aspects of family living, and educational opportunities and so forth. So it was just a great environment in which to grow up. A lot of kids in our little Orchard View School were not living on farms. We, in addition to having fruit you see had, of course, one or two cows for the family milk supply, we had some chickens; we canned everything from the garden and the orchard all summer so winter was taken care of. And the folks never talked about poverty or hardship or so forth. Some kids had just a rough time and they couldn’t get a warm coat for the winter so you’re conscience of that. Many of the kids in our Orchard View School, their folks were immigrants, and so they were the first generation of American citizens. The kids, my classmates, in every instance, their parents, that I can remember, they were from the Netherlands, and Italy, and Poland in particular. In our community, they might speak a little of their native tongue at home but never outside and expected the kids to just, deal always in English. So it was a rich experience during that time. We learned to work. I had tasks, my older brother, my sister, my kid brother, all had tasks as a part of the family enterprise and you felt rather than making work, you were doing something which was really useful. 00:07:36 Now two youth programs really changed my perspective on life. One was 4H Club work. And so our local Orchard View group had a 4H Club; wood working, electrical projects, soil and water conservation, raising pheasants to release for pheasant repopulation, etc. It was learning skills which are still useful. The other aspect was the group organization because we had a club and we elected officers; and so we had a President and a Vice President for social activities, and a treasurer and so forth. We had projects of community service. We knew simple rules of order, Robert’s Rules of Order. Useful kinds of skills engaged in our community in useful ways. That provided them the first opportunity for me to visit the campus of Michigan State University for 4H Club week, stay in the dormitory and begin to think, gee maybe I could do this. My dad was on two state organizations: one the Michigan Apple Commission and the other a Land Use Planning Commission. Those usually met at the Michigan State University in the Union building. And on occasion he would take me along, give me a dollar and when they started meeting and I could go find a hamburger and knew where the ice cream shop was on campus, but again got comfortable with Michigan State. My older brother, like my dad, went to a fruit growing short course. I decided to go for a baccalaureate degree, had some scholarship assistance through 4H and other activities and majored in Horticulture, Pomology, you know that pomology is fruit growing, Olericulture is vegetable growing, and floriculture, you know for sure. So 4H really made a dramatic difference in my life. 00:09:52 (JS) Now the other thing of course that goes on in this period is the country winds up in a war for four years starting with Pearl Harbor. Now do you remember hearing about Pearl Harbor or learning about the start of the war? (RM) Oh sure. I remember it dramatically. I was a freshman in high school, going to Creston High School, from a little two room country school, and remember Pearl Harbor vividly; it made an immediate impact of course. We did a lot of things in school. One of the things that my dad suggested is why don’t you take some nice apples and give an apple to anybody who would buy �saving stamps for war bonds. I think 25 cents would buy a savings stamp, so a youngster could buy that and we would give them an apple. Things like that, and some of the teachers volunteered to come out and work Saturdays and Sundays on the farm, helping with harvest in the fall. So there was a different spirit. And as a freshman of course, the older classes were graduating and off they went to military service. And in my senior year down in the front of the Old Kent Bank in the Creston Community there’s a war memorial that I spoke at the dedication of that war memorial of the deceased, would have been in the spring, I suppose of 1945 when I graduated. So we did have that impact, rationing was a reality. Interesting, living on a farm at that period of time I had a driver’s license at the age of 14. I could do all sorts of thing in the farm business. I was never an athlete. I played in the band. Fall was apple harvest, and I’d get home from school, pickers would be out picking and we’d load the apples and get done by 9:00 at night and go get ice to cool the storage. It was, in retrospect a wonderful set of circumstances in which you felt a useful part of what was going on not only at home but in the community, in the country, and in the sense in the world. One of the realities that still troubles me I think, is that our society over time now has tended to prolong what I would call adolescence into even the mid-twenties before people really assume an adult role for themselves and for others because it was quite different at that point in time. 00:12:48 (JS) You had plenty of people who would go to school only through eighth grade and then go into the work force, and that sort of thing, so you really would start early and certainly anybody going in the military at age 18 or19 had to grow up pretty quickly. Now for yourself, as the war is going on and you’re going through high school, did you assume the war was going to be over before you got in it or were you figuring well sooner or later they were going to catch up with you? (RM) A lot of my classmates, some of them quit school to get in before VE day was right at the time of our high school graduation, VJ day followed. So you hoped the war would be over but didn’t really know. That was a four year period, really the whole four years that I was in school. (JS) Right. 00:13:32 (RM) I wanted to mention the other youth organization was Boy Scouts. In our 4H club that was really kids in the community and our neighborhood and so forth. We didn’t have a Boy Scout Troop, but my folks, our church, North Park Presbyterian Church, sponsored a troop and that’s where we went to service and that’s where I became a Boy Scout. Now that was a completely different experience; more a military structure in which you had the Scout Master and the different ranks and so forth. And with kids that were completely - no one else from Orchard View was in troop 43. So it was a different kind of experience. Not the participatory and democratic decision making process, but learning discipline and all sorts of other things and the scout oath and the scout law and so forth. Both of those experiences - one of the interesting things was that, between my - in summer 1944, the Department of Conservation in Michigan was having trouble keeping up the fish ponds and the roadside tables and a lot of things that needed �to be cared for in state parks and a lot of their workers had been drafted into military service and so our scout troop with a troop from Jackson was recruited to go up to Higgins Lake conservation camp, establish a boy scout camp there and troops came up and spent two weeks each time. So I was involved in helping create that and then we helped the Conservation Department clean fish ponds and repair buildings and tables and so forth. Again, a way of engaging young people in a very, seemed to be important task that needed to be done. So those all set a value standard for me with my parents because both of them were actively engaged in some way with Red Cross, the United Way and so forth. My dad was the [Civil Defense] chairman for our square mile when we had tests of blackout services. So I remember riding with him with no lights on around to see if we could see any lights anywhere in his service area. They had training at the township hall for people in first aid techniques and so forth. As a scout I had gotten my merit badge in first aid, and so Red Cross would come out and use me as an assistant in doing those things. There were just a lot of ways in which you felt you were trying to be helpful in the total effort. So it was a good growing-up process. One of the real challenges today it seems to me, in our society is to find ways in which young people can contribute and do for, rather than always having things done for them and it just changes your mindset about your role and your sense of responsibility for others. 00:17:00 (JS) I’ve interviewed quite a few people of your approximate generation and I’m trying to think if there’s anybody with quite as many connections to service organizations and activities and so forth as you’ve listed right here and I don’t think so. I think individual experiences are characteristic of a lot of people, you just seem to have a lot more of them together in one person and one life then a lot. But I guess that kind of naturally gears you towards getting involved with service organizations, community outreach, and a lot of that because that was always what people did. So you go off to college, and then in the time when you’re then at Michigan State, and getting your bachelor’s degree and so forth were there groups or organizations you where connected with or programs…? (RW) Oh gosh yes. Again it was quite an experience to go to East Lansing. GI Bill was in effect, the dormitories were filling with veterans who should have had priority. I was in a little boarding house, became a member of an agricultural, social, and professional fraternity the second and third year, that added a different dimension because I became very active then in that organization on campus, President of the chapter, and then went on in adult life to be very active in the national structure and network of friendships that made a difference. In the final analysis only people are important, and it’s how you relate to people and engage people that you can broaden your perspective and learn. So an interesting experience. The first two years of my major in Horticulture was a broadening experience of basic college, some liberal arts, science, and history, and so forth. But basic courses all across: agriculture, dairy science, animal science, soils crops, entomology and so forth. At the end of my second year the head of the Horticulture Department stopped me in the hallway. I was a good student, good grades anyway. And he stopped me and I was surprised that he knew who I was. And he asked me to step into his office and I thought uh-oh now what? He said, “Russ, you’re a good student we’re proud of you, pleased that you’re majoring in Horticulture. I have just one suggestion for you. If you end up wanting to be a horticulturalist as a career, you’ll have to go ahead and get a master’s degree and �probably a Ph.D. [We will make you a specialist then]” And so he said, “My suggestion for you for these next two years, junior and senior year, is take as few courses as we’ll let you get by with and still have a major in Horticulture. Take as few courses as we’ll let you get by with and still have a degree in the College of Agriculture, and use all of the rest of the time to sample this great university.” He said, “I don’t care, great religions of the world, philosophy, science, whatever you are interested in sample this great university. You will never have a better chance.” Now that was another intervention and I did that. And I found myself in class, you see, with nobody else from agriculture, students who knew nothing about agriculture and it was an interesting set of interactions. That led me to be involved on the State News newspaper and a couple of honorary societies, Blue Key and so forth. So again, it was a broadening experience. Then, interestingly between junior and senior year, that would be summer of 1948, the 4H club program nationally launched an international exchange program and I was one of 17 selected nationally to spend the summer in Europe. And so we went overseas in an old troop ship that had just been painted so you had to watch where you sat because you would end up with gray paint, and spent a summer in the United Kingdom. Others went into Italy, France, and Denmark and so forth. But again a very broadening experience, it was after the war, the damage was still there; strict rationing of gas, of eggs, of cheese, and so forth in England. Again, sort of a dimensionchanging experience. 00:21:39 (JS) Now did you stay in one place most of the time in England or move around a lot? (RM) No, a lot of - spent time in Wales which isn’t England. I marvel at that little country, that little island with the Welsh, and the English, and the Scots and you’d think they’d be all, but they aren’t all mixed up yet; [laughs] so, but mostly in Northern England. But went to County Kent also which is the heart of the fruit industry in England. That was interesting, the East Malling Research Station where the first experimental work of the dwarfing of apple trees. We use to have the old standard trees and they, Malling number nine is one of the standards now for all of the orchards that are small, semi-dwarfed trees. So it was just another life-changing experience. So I graduated in the spring of 1949, was sort of tired of academics. Looked at variety of options, had a possibility of going with Michigan Farmer Magazine, because I had taken enough journalism courses that I could have had a major in Journalism probably. Journalist graduates were having trouble getting jobs, but because, in addition to being able to write a little bit, I had a specialty. So I could have gone with “Better Homes and Gardens,” [laughs] the garden section of the magazine. Alpha Zeta, the agricultural honorary nationally for students in agriculture, established a fellowship program and had awarded one in 1948. Unbeknownst to me the advisor of our chapter of East Lansing had nominated me. So I got a telegraph saying, “Congratulations, you can go to graduate school.” So instead of going to work I went to Purdue University, to major in Agriculture Economics. I was anxious to get a broader perspective into the broader issues of agriculture including management, marketing, public policy and so forth. (JS) Did you select Purdue because they had the right kind of program? Or how did that happen? 00:24:04 �(RM) Yes, I had taken Economics and Agriculture Economics courses in that grand design of broadening. And my orientation has always been more toward the practical and the applied; putting together new knowledge and using it in different ways for purposes. So I looked at others, more of them where theoretical. Purdue had more of an orientation that I found attractive. So I went to Purdue. The draft continued but I didn’t volunteer and for education they simply let me bubble along and I finished a master’s degree at Purdue. I took a job there in Agriculture Economics extension working but then got a draft notice. So, Ruth and I got married, figuring that very quickly I’d be going into military service, well assuming that next month I would go. Well the draft board said, oh no that was an extension saying you can’t go now, you have to wait until something. She was then working in the extension service in Kent County. So I started my doctoral program at Michigan State. And that continued until the fall of 1953. I was an Agricultural Extension Specialist then. Farmers for the first time became eligible for Social Security in 1951 or 2. I was in charge of developing an educational program to inform farmers how they could qualify for Social Security retirement benefits. We did that in a variety of ways: presentations around the state and by radio. And that was the beginning of television. And so we did television, kinescopes they called them, Big Films, for a half hour. We did thirteen shows for a quarter of a year. You would tape these things called Rural Round Up or Country Cross Roads and I was hosting these with different specialists on television. And then ship them out to the stations in Escanaba, Marquette, and Traverse City and so forth. So that was a great experience. And then in the fall of 1953, I went in the US Army. I was the oldest, I was then 25 years old. So in basic training they had all these sharp football players and I was trying to keep up. (JS) Where did they send you for basic training? 00:27:00 (RM) Fort Knox, Kentucky, and basic training that fall. Then they made the assignment to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas, in field artillery, I think capitalizing on my farm background they sent me to field. I was in fire direction control, which is the firing instructions for the big 105 howitzers. Went through that course, eight weeks, Ruth took a leave and came down and we had a little bit of time but during basic training just a couple of times. Then I was held out after completing the course as a replacement instructor because they would recruit… (JS) Let me back up with this a little bit. How easy or hard was it for you to adjust to Army life, the discipline and the drill and the rest of it. Was it an easy transition for you because of your background? 00:28:05 (RM) My attitude is always, you know, you just make the best of whatever situation and adjust to it, not going to gripe about it every morning. So it was just, get up in the morning make your bed be sure it’s smooth enough or you’re going to catch heck, be sure the firing knobs on your rifle are clean so you’ll pass inspection and just do whatever needs to be done. (JS) And did you kind of fall into a leadership role on some other level at least among the other recruits because you were the old guy? �(RM) Not during basic training, I really didn’t want to be head of a patrol or anything, so I just tried to behave and do everything that needed to be done. But then I was held as an instructor and spent the rest of my two years at Camp Chaffee. That’s when Ruth came down; living on private pay and then PFC, I rose to the rank of Corporal and President Eisenhower froze rank, or I might have been a Sergeant but I didn’t make it. So we lived in the community, we had a little one room apartment in Fort Smith. Again took advantage of the opportunity. She was a skillful, talented seamstress, loved sewing, loved tailoring, and furniture refinishing. So she linked up with the YWCA and would teach classes and got acquainted with women; we went to church; I became a member of the Toastmasters club for speaking, so you got acquainted with people in the community. So it was a great experience. Now a lot of my colleagues on the staff had college degrees and thought they were important, smart, and they spent all their time grumbling about this waste of time. And we just enjoyed Arkansas, made friends in community and again it was a great experience and I’m thankful I had that experience because first at Fort Knox met kids, you know, of all backgrounds of center city. The guy in the bunk, Mac McCloud, couldn’t write his name. Just came from a desperate background situation and so you had a different perspective if you took advantage of the opportunity to get acquainted, to learn. 00:30:39 (JS) At this point the army was in the process of racial integration as well. Were there black troops training along with you? (RM) Oh sure, oh yeah. McCloud was black, African American from Cincinnati. So I just made a point of again, of taking advantage, trying to look at the positives. We gained friends. We would invite people to go out when we where going to have a tube steak dinner, that we could afford hot dogs. We tried to see points; we visited Winrock [Farm]. [Governor] Winthrop Rockefeller had developed this big estate with Santa Gertrudis cattle. I was intrigued with those things, went to rodeos, just benefited from Arkansas. (JS) Took advantage of what was there. (RM) Yes. (JS) So you do that for two years, then do you come back to Michigan after that? (RM) Yes. I was really on leave from Michigan State University. I had a faculty appointment, so I was on leave for two years and came back to finish my Ph.D. degree and again an extension specialist responsibility. That would have been in the fall of 1955. Then, to my amazement [laughs], in May of 1956 I got called to the Dean’s office. “Russ, can you come up 3:00 this afternoon?” Yes sir. The Dean and the Director of Extension said “Russ, we want you to start July 1 as the Assistant Director of the Michigan Cooperative Extension Service responsible for 4H youth programs.” I was 28 years old. My predecessor to my seat had been the state 4H Club leader for 30 years, a marvelous man, who was retiring. The Dean said “We’ve convinced President Hannah; he said ‘gosh Russ isn’t very old.’” The Dean said “I just told him that this was the right thing to do”. So anyway, 1956 was a big year. I [assumed] that responsibility. Ruth �and I had learned that we would not be having biological kids, so we went through the interesting experience of dealing with the Department of [Human] Services I guess it was called, to try to adopt a child, and that was completely unsuccessful. The agent came out and inspected the house from top to bottom and talked with us and she said “I regret to inform you, you will never be able to adopt a child.” And we wondered [why], Ruth’s major was in Home Economics. We said “Could you explain why?” She said, “You have too much education. These children aren’t born to people with education.” I had a Master’s Degree and Ruth had a Bachelor’s Degree, and we would never be able to adopt a child, which didn’t seem to me sensible. So, we then went the private route and Karen joined our family when she was one week old that fall. So it was just an exciting year. (JS) And she probably wasn’t really fazed at all by your educational level either. (RM) No, that’s right. It didn’t bother her a bit [laughs]. We were challenged sometimes, but she wasn’t. And then we, later on, a couple years later when she was two we adopted her older brothers, who tragically had been in foster care for four years. They were five and four years old. At age five, Doug could not, now just think about it with what kids are doing now, at age five Doug could not spell his name, couldn’t count to ten, didn’t know colors. Doug and Dave came with one paper bag, each had a broken toy, and one change of underwear, and that was what the state of Michigan provided. So I still think some improvement needs to be made in that sector of society. Anyway, that started our family, and I was on the faculty then at Michigan State and responsible for the 4H program in the 83 counties of Michigan. Tremendous opportunity, responsibility, and advanced to the rank of professor, and thought probably my career would be in the academic world, maybe someday a department chair or Director of Extension, maybe a Dean, or whatever, and then life changed again. [laughs] 00:35:46 (JS) So what happens that shifts you out of that? (RM) Well, to shift out of that. Okay. I was enjoying what we were doing, life was great, the kids were doing fine, lived out on a couple acres out east of East Lansing, had a pony, and life was good. I got a phone call. One of my realities of life, I have never applied for a job. [laughs] I got a call from a man who I had become acquainted with through the National Agricultural Extension Center for Advanced Study at the University of Wisconsin. I had been interacting with them, and by then had completed my doctorate and was moving into leadership circles in the 4H Extension nationally. So he had taken a position with the Kellogg Foundation as Director of the Division of Agriculture. He was leaving to go back to the University of Kentucky and said “I’m calling [for] Dr. Morris who is the president of the foundation and would like you to come down if you would and talk about an opportunity.” And I said “Oh gosh Glen. I’m happy here, everything is going well. I’m not sure it’s fair for me to come down.” “Oh,” he said, “just come on down and get acquainted.” So, I went down [laughs] and got acquainted and was just intrigued with the opportunity. The [W.K.] Kellogg Foundation, we’ll talk about in greater detail. So I joined on December 1st, 1964 and became the Director of the Division of Agriculture. I commuted back and forth so the kids could finish their school here at Williamston. We bought �40 acres here and built this house in the summer of 1965, moved in in August and been here ever since. (JS) Tell me a little bit about the Kellogg Foundation itself. What was it and what was it doing at the time you joined it? 00:38:00 (RM) Okay. We will go into more detail perhaps about Mr. Kellogg because any organization in effect is the consequence of the people who comprise it. Mr. Kellogg started the Kellogg Company in 1906, and then based on that success created the W.K. Kellogg Foundation in 1930. Concentrated for the first ten years on seven rural counties, and then, with the advent of World War II, expanded some specific programs in the health field nationally, and then became involved in Europe in the post-war period for about a 30 year period of time. And concentrated on three broad areas: one was education broadly defined from early childhood and the whole concept of lifelong learning, continuing education and everything in between; second, health, and a broad approach. Most foundations working in health concentrated on medicine and the medical profession physicians. Kellogg concentrated first on public health for disease prevention, health promotion, and then medicine, dentistry, which was not included [usually in health programs]. It’s an interesting story of why dentistry is not a specialty within medicine like ophthalmology is, but is a completely separate discipline. So, medicine, dentistry, nursing, allied health professions, and health services administration. It was a very broad approach to health. And the third, labeled agriculture, but really concerned with food systems, because good health, first of all is dependent upon nutrition, food systems; then the whole concern with the quality of rural life and rural community development. My area was that broad area of agriculture. We were organized in seven program divisions, of which agriculture was one of them. Active then in Latin America as well as nationally, and in Europe. They had gotten involved in Latin America at the beginning of World War II. The State Department invited major foundations like Kellogg and Rockefeller and Ford and so forth, to get together and talk about the western hemisphere, saying we don’t know what will happen in Europe, we don’t know about the Pacific, but the western hemisphere will have some common concerns for the future, and would you think about ways of getting interaction with South America? The Kellogg Foundation followed through on that by starting fellowships in Latin American countries that had basic training in medicine and dentistry and nursing and so forth, but not a place for specialization. The foundation developed a pattern in which they would work with an institution, usually a university in; let’s say Colombia, where in nursing they wanted to develop a specialty in pediatric nursing. The foundation would grant a fellowship to the university, not to the individual. The university would identify the individual then, the recipient, and the foundation worked out a fellowship study program at the University of Michigan, or Harvard, or wherever the right pediatric nursing. So that the link was with the institution, the person who came as a fellow knew she was coming to get a training to go back to perform a specific task. Her graduate advisors all knew what she was doing. If there was research, she probably did it back in her country. The brain drain was virtually zero. So many of those international programs, people came here and didn’t want to go home. But here, the link was clear, and so 95% of those fellows in medicine, dentistry, nursing, hospital administration, public health, returned. Then, the natural �thing was this Kellogg fellow goes back, needs some library resources, needs other…so you began to help the develop whole department, changed the nature of programming; then, in that process after the war, broadened it in Latin America to include food systems as well. So, that’s where the foundation was. Growing out of this interesting problem in seven counties here in south central Michigan, the foundation then had followed through because they worked on, for example, the consolidation of the one room school into a consolidated district because otherwise, rural kids didn’t have a chance to go to high school. They soon learned that administering a system like that is different than just being a classroom teacher, so, educational administration. The same thing was true in the health, hospitals, helped create a hospital in each of these seven counties seats, but running a hospital is different than being a good surgeon. So, health services or hospital administration developed. Then, in working in these seven counties, they began to take the school board, school superintendent, the principals, and so forth, hospital boards, public health boards, would go to Ann Arbor or East Lansing or University of Chicago for a short term, three or four or five days. They’d get on the train and go to Chicago and have an intensive learning experience related to hospital operations, health services. But, one of the challenges was then, how does the university accommodate that kind of a short term learning experience? So, the first of the Kellogg-assisted University-based residential centers for continuing education, the Kellogg Center in East Lansing. About the fourth one was at the University of Chicago. It was East Lansing, then Georgia, then Oklahoma, then Chicago, and so forth. Did 12 of those demonstrations on lifelong learning in variation. So, that’s where the foundation was at the time I came in. They sort of completed that moving on next as a major player in the whole spread of the community college effort nationally. During the 60s, for four or five years in the 60s, there was a new community college opened every week, somewhere in the United States. Just a boom and so again it was training of leadership for organizational development, second curriculum development, and third business operations; with graduate fellowships at 12 major public and private universities across the country. 00:45:58 (JS) So where was agriculture in all of this? You talk a lot about the education and the health dimensions and so forth. But agriculture seems to be maybe someplace else? (RM) Well, yeah, because it was a little later start. The emphasis was on food systems, dissemination of new technology both in the developing countries of Latin America, but in the U.S. Leadership Programs changing curricula and then all things related to the quality of rural life. Education, and of course the wonderful thing now is modern technology so you are no longer isolated as you once were, but concerned with community development, health services, education, across the board, so, a very broad definition. Now, one of the realities is that when I do have a job, I want to know what my job is, but I don’t want a very narrow job description. So I know what I need to do, but I also want some freedom to do beyond that. As now the new Director of Agriculture working with Dr. Morrison with total staff at the foundation I think including everyone, including the elevator operator, 26 of us there. We talked about a couple of ideas. One was the use of new technology, computers. As an undergraduate I had worked at Farm Record Keeping System for farmers around the state. They sent in their little account books and we had to add them up and so forth. All computerized, so the foundation helped in the computerization of farm records, you know efficiency records and dairy production and all of �those applications, dissemination of new technology by computer, and so forth. Then, concerned with developing farm, agricultural, rural leadership, and the theme there was leadership for agriculture in an urbanizing society. So we developed Farmer’s Study Programs across the country. One of the interesting things we were studying then was rural poverty, and started with a major program in the Appalachian Mountains. And then, we were sitting at an advisory group for programs in agriculture including Dr. T.W. Shultz who was an agricultural economist at the University of Chicago. 00:49:02 Ted Shultz was on our advisory committee in agriculture talking about rural poverty. He is the one who really pioneered a lot of the study on the returns to society of investments in higher education for people, and what are the returns to society of these investments. He said, in the South, for blacks, this was just after civil rights legislation, ’65 ’66, the opportunities are tremendous, but there are more black students in the public black universities than in the private ones. But foundations were working with [the private institutions] Spellman and Howard and so forth. The land grant universities were established originally in 1863. This is history, in 1863, one in every state where land was given to be sold to create a college. In 1890, there was a second piece of legislation that established a separate, segregated black school in each of 13 states. They were training mostly teachers for segregated school systems, some students to go on from there into professions of medicine, nursing, law, and so forth, and in theology. This was a dramatic time for change. So, here I am, head of agriculture, again talking with the president and with the board of trustees about [rural poverty]. So I self-invited myself to seven of those institutions saying I was going to be in the area, and I’d like to come by and visit, would it be alright? I went and talked with them about the opportunities they saw now with the changing realities and so, provided assistance then, for example, the first one had been North Carolina A&T where they wanted to move their College of Engineering to accreditation. They needed to send some bright faculty members away for advanced degrees. So, we provided that they would select the study center, in turn, we would try to get their study institution to provide some counseling help back and visiting professorships, and so forth. We did that at Fort Valley, I don’t know if you are familiar with Fort Valley in Georgia, North Carolina A&T, Alcorn A&M in Mississippi, and so forth. Talk about a tremendous educational experience for me in going to those institutions talking about the realities of how you live in a segregated situation; fascinating. There’s more details. I was at Tuskegee, which is sort of public and private. It was awarded land grant money but was a private institution. I happened to be there at the time of Farmers’ Day. Dean Benny had asked me what experience I’d like while I was there and I said one thing I would like to do is visit two or three farms and two or three rural schools where your students come from. So we did that, where the wallpaper on the house was newspapers, and so forth; the school with just a desperate situation. They had Farmers’ Day, and Benny was getting uneasy because they had programs in the morning, and Tuskegee was loaded with people, they all had free lunch at the Union. With such a crowd, it was running late and getting anxious about getting the program started. The choir was going to sing and so forth. I said “Gosh, I don’t see that any of the places we visited, they don’t have to get home for chores.” He said “That’s not the problem. They’ve got to be home before dusk. It’s at dusk that my people have trouble.” You know, it is just mind boggling to this old �farm kid that people were living in that circumstance in the late ’60s. That’s the way I approached it. Got very much involved, and then to my surprise and I guess everybody’s amazement, I became Vice President of the foundation for programming across the board in about 1968 and became the CEO in 1970. 00:54:03 (JS) That’s pretty quick on the whole… (RM) They were desperate apparently; [laughs] and I became President and served as the CEO for 25 years during a period of dramatic growth. My first year at the foundation, just briefly, fiscal year 1965, total payout, you know, expenditures, $12 million, about $1 million a month, a lot of money. When I retired in 1995, payout was $1 million a working day… [End] PART 2 (JS): You are already to the point where you had now become; you have sort of taken over the Kellogg Foundation, in effect. (RM): That’s right. (JS): You were talking about one of the changes was just the amount of money that they were spending. Where did all the other money come from? 00:00:26 (RM): Ok. Well we need to go back, just a brief history of the Kellogg family. The Kellogg family came to Battle Creek because of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. They came through Pennsylvania, into eastern Michigan, became active in the church; the headquarters then and still to some extent, is in Battle Creek, very important. So the Kellogg family came here, and Mr. Kellogg, W.K. Kellogg was born in 1860 as the seventh son in a family of fourteen. They were very active in the church, and his oldest brother was sent by the church to medical school to come back to Battle Creek and start a hospital, clinic in Battle Creek. The family operation, the business that his dad had, was broom making. W.K. dropped out of school at about age 13 and went to work as a salesman, then went to Texas to start a broom factory for the church. Came back to Battle Creek, and his brother Dr. John Harvey Kellogg had started the hospital. Dr. Kellogg was an innovator, a very charismatic person, changed the name to the Battle Creek Sanitarium, not Sanatorium, but Sanitarium with an emphasis on lifestyle, and the Adventist faith of no caffeine, no alcohol, no tobacco, and a vegetarian diet. He hired his kid brother, W.K. to be the business manager. So at about age 20, he became business manager of the Battle Creek Sanitarium. And it grew and was a very successful operation, and the Kellogg brothers of course began to experiment with what you do with grain besides cornmeal and oatmeal, and that led to granules, and led to flakes. They developed a little �production operation for those products to use at the San, and they became very popular. W.K., a business man, wanted to start marketing them and the doctor refused. He said that would not be appropriate. I think the medical profession has changed now, [laughs] but he thought it was not appropriate to commercialize it. In 1906 when W.K. was 46 years old he quit his job with the San and started the Kellogg Company. He was a very successful business entrepreneur. We won’t go into all the tough experiences he had along the way, but he was concerned with a good product, a healthy product, good for the customer. He wanted to be a good employer, he wanted to be good, a good investment for investors, and those were his goals. As he became successful, he was a genius at marketing techniques, had this beautiful Sweetheart of the Corn back in 1909 and 1910, advertising. It was a real change in the old American diet of bacon and eggs. 00:03:46 So, very successful, started the business, and then, as he realized he became a man of wealth, he formed a little fellowship corporation - half a dozen friends in Battle Creek - to help him make some decisions about how he could use some of his money. He said, “I know how I will invest my money: I’ll invest it in people. I want to be a good steward of that which divine providence may provide.” Those are his words. He wrote diaries and letters and so forth. He formed this little group and out of that immediately began to demonstrate in addition to being a business entrepreneur; he was a social entrepreneur. The first was to provide for, in celebration of his 65th birthday in 1925, funding for a civic auditorium to benefit the total community, but to have as a part of the Battle Creek Pubic Schools. So, it would have an educational emphasis; would be used not just for civic events in the community but all the time. That was an innovation of linking private funds with public funds for a purpose. He had a grandson who fell from a second story window as a youngster and was badly damaged, [with] physical and mental limitations. So he was concerned about opportunities. In his own hand he said, “Here I am with all of my means. I have done everything I could do for Kenneth, and I could do so little. How desperate people of lesser means must feel.” So again, when the Battle Creek Public Schools were building a new neighborhood school, he went to them and asked them to design the school so that it would be accessible. No steps, the classrooms, everything to accommodate people of handicaps, a swimming pool. At that time most of the kids in wheelchairs were polio victims, and so the swimming pool had a raised [edge, so] they could come up in their wheelchair and sit into the pool. The teachers were trained, and kids from all of the schools of the City of Battle Creek and beyond were bused to Ann J. Kellogg School, mainstreaming the handicapped in 1929. So he was a social entrepreneur. 00:06:20 In 1930 he was invited to Washington D.C. by President Hoover to attend a White House conference on children and youth. He came home and in effect said, “Well, I need to organize my philanthropy differently.” So, he established the W.K. Kellogg Youth Welfare Foundation because he was concerned essentially with kids. Named a board, and a director, started planning in June, very quickly they decided that that was too narrow. So much of what determines the �quality of life for kids is determined by things beyond: jobs, housing, and sewer and water, recreation, hospitals and all the rest. So they changed it in the fall, to the W.K. Kellogg Foundation, still with the same mission of helping people help themselves for the betterment of mankind, but with a special concern for children and youth. So that has characterized the foundation since then. [The trustees decided to confine their activities initially to even more counties surrounding Battle Creek.] 00:07:35 Then he had a particular concern [for rural youth]. He had built a home at Gull Lake, outside, a summer home and became quickly aware that none of the kids out here could go to high school. It was twelve miles to Kalamazoo, ten miles to Battle Creek, so he worked with the local school districts. Under Michigan law at that time, one and two room high schools could use tax money to pay tuition to go to high school but they couldn’t use tax money for bricks and mortar outside of their district. So he said, “If you can figure out…if you do want a high school, consolidating grades one through twelve, and if you, if you can figure out how to operate it, I’ll build it for you.” Over the door it still says W.K Kellogg Agricultural School. So the emphasis shifted then to these seven counties, in public health, plus then hospitals for access, school consolidation, and improvement of libraries. That led then, through the whole decade of the 30s as their area of concentration here in seven counties. That led then to concern with professions, like educational administration, public health administration, health services administration, the whole concept of outdoor education. Built three school camps in which kids during the school year would spend a week on nature education outdoors and then the camp operate during the summer. So that was the decade of the ’30s; he was directly involved. 00:09:42 It’s interesting in the history of that period, the trustees in their report said we studied the issues of importance in these seven counties and it was really health care and educational opportunities. They studied then what other foundations were doing nationally. And they decided in their words that “our resources will be used essentially for the application of knowledge,” in other words, putting to use that which is already known. And says specifically, not research per se; research is important, but we need to encourage its use. Not relief because other sources are taking care of desperate poverty, but the application of that which [is already known]. What greater service can we be, than to help people in their own lives, in their family, in their community, and their institutions use that already known. That’s been then the characteristic of the foundation ever since. He also would say the foundation doesn’t have a problem, people have problems, communities have problems, institutions have problems. We can’t solve all problems so we need to identify some issues of special importance like education, like health care access, and then simply say to institutions, to communities, “If you share our concern with this issue and have a plan to do something about it, we’ll try to help you.” So rather than the foundation saying, now this is what needs to be done and this is how you have to do it, if you’re going to get money from us; it was �the opposite, saying if you share your concern for early childhood care in contemporary terms, with a single parent or with both parents working daycare for children is tremendously important. But the answer to that is so different in Grand Marais in Alger County in the Upper Peninsula than it is in downtown Detroit that you can’t decide in Battle Creek how it should be done. So, you simply indicate and then program it in that direction. So that’s been the characteristic of the foundation through time. 00:12:04 (JS): Was that at the time an unusual approach? Was it more common to do outreach by saying “Here, we have things; we want to come and do them for you.” Because in a way what you are describing sounds like an awful lot of grant application procedures now, where if somebody says I want to go do this thing and then you apply to foundations and try to find someone to fund it. Was that a relatively new thing at the time? (RM): Yeah, relatively new in the foundation world. More typically, they would identify a problem and design, prescribe a solution, and if you wanted to conform to those requirements, it was sort of a request for proposal versus simply identifying the issue and saying, “If you have an approach that you think will really work in your community, we’ll consider it.” So that has continued to be the pattern, and it made Kellogg, in many respects, different from a lot of the major grantmakers. To some extent, you know, foundations change. I’m talking about the foundation through 1995, and the Kellogg Foundation is completely different people now, so to some extent it’s probably different because people make it different. One of my great goals was somehow to be true to the vision and the values of the man who made it all possible. They operated as a foundation for the first five years, the board would develop a budget, they were going to build these units and so forth, and he would fund it. In 1935 then, if you look at our annual report, there are really two foundations. One is the W.K. Kellogg Foundation with the board that makes the grants and so forth. It has a small portfolio of its own. The big trust fund is the W.K. Kellogg Foundation Trust, into which he put his share of ownership of the Kellogg Company in 1935, 56 percent of the value of stock at that time into perpetual trust for the benefit of the foundation. Now that’s an interesting interlock because the foundation trust, the foundation has to report quarterly to the trust to say that they’ve had a board of trustees that met monthly, in Battle Creek. We’ve gotten that modified so once or twice a year they can meet elsewhere, hold a conference call to do some Battle Creek business, but get trustees out to site visits. But basically, he was committed to having a monthly meeting of the board of trustees, oriented specifically to hometown Battle Creek. So that made pretty clear some of the things that he felt were important as he developed the concept of his foundation. 00:15:23 (JS): So then was the growth of the company, the value of the company, then directly affect what kind of resources the foundation has to work with? (RM): Oh yeah. That’s right. The foundation [originally had only Kellogg stock, now as a result of the] Tax Reform Act of 1969, the foundation has a diversified portfolio. Now, the interesting thing is that the growth of the foundation as I described, has been largely due to the tremendous �success of the Kellogg Company over its now 100 year history. So, it’s been hard for the diversified portfolio managers to keep up with the success of the company. My predecessor, Dr. [Emory] Morris, was a wonderful man. He grew up in the town of Nashville, Michigan. His father was a horse and buggy doctor in Nashville. Emory Morris went to University Michigan Dental School. Didn’t go back to Nashville, went to the big city, Battle Creek, to practice, and got involved with the foundation first of all when they started these summer camps. They got dentists and doctors to come out and volunteer to give exams. So Emory, I suppose was the newest dentist in town so he got the responsibility of organizing the volunteers and then he became an employee in 1932, became the CEO in 1942, and retired in 1970. 00:17:32 He knew Mr. Kellogg well. I tried to benefit from his understanding. And then I made a point of getting acquainted with grandchildren of W.K. At that time there where five living grandchildren. Many of them were living in California and in Chicago, very little connection back with Battle Creek. I tried to reestablish that, got especially well acquainted with two wonderful grandsons: W.K. Kellogg II, who went into business in Chicago and then retired in California; and Norman Williamson, Jr. I tried to learn more about Mr. Kellogg and his values and his vision. So I wanted to be true to that, yet in a contemporary sense because Mr. Kellogg himself was a change agent. He wouldn’t be doing things today as he did them in 1920 if he were here. That’s never quite the way I approached it saying, what would Mr. Kellogg do? But tried to look at his vision and it was in those letters at the time of the commitment of his fortune that he ends up saying, “I’m glad the educational approach has been emphasized. Education offers the greatest opportunity for improving one generation over another.” So consistently education and then the multiplier effect of training professionals with different skills and different even values does change the availability of delivery of services. 00:19:20 (JS): Now at the time that you became executive director, were there particular issues or problems that were kind of in the forefront or that you really had to focus on or wanted to focus on? What direction did you go in once you took over? (RM): Well, programmatically, just moving in continuing the emphasis upon life-long learning, which was a new dimension. Most universities didn’t see any organized responsibility for that phase of education, so continued in those areas. The tremendous growth in the community colleges was going on. We were moving then particularly in the proving of opportunities for minority education, African Americans specifically then. Moved later to a quite different problem of Native Americans and they were establishing their own institutions. There are now 37 or 40 Native American colleges. And then some institutions developed a particular orientation to Hispanics, although that doesn’t seem to be quite as different as the African and the Native American. So moved in a variety of areas like that, programmatically. �The big challenge immediately, the Tax Reform Act of ’69, 1970. I am the CEO. There were a lot of good provisions in that Tax Reform Act, one was the required payout. If you’re going to have tax exemption, you need to be a benefit to society. But it was on a formula basis to be established each year by the Secretary of Treasury. You couldn’t determine what it was, and they related it then to the rate for short term Treasury Bonds that moved toward 12 percent. If you looked historically, portfolios don’t perform that, the best long term study going back into the early 20s is the University of Chicago. That’s where you come out with about a 4 ½ to 5 ½ percent, and that’s what we managed, but had to appear before the Wilbur Mills Tax Committee and so forth to work on those issues. But the first reality was that in Michigan, foundation people didn’t know each other. A wonderful guy named Bill Baldwin was head of the Kresge Foundation in the fall of ’69 as all of the discussion was going on in Washington, had invited foundation people in Michigan, 25 or 30 that he invited to lunch over at Meadowbrook Hall over at now Oakland University. And so Emory had me go with him. So I became CEO and became immersed in that. The payout was the big concern. Excess business holdings was a problem to us, and we felt since Kellogg’s stock was publically traded - the big problem in a privately held foundation if it wasn’t publically traded, how do you value it in terms of payout requirement? The Kellogg stock was publically traded and we thought that could be separate. We were unsuccessful in getting that changed. One very positive was the encouragement of the Community Foundation, in which people like me who will never be able to establish my own foundation can have the Mawby Family Fund as a little unit within the Battle Creek Community Foundation and don’t have to worry about all the paperwork and the tax returns and so forth, but can operate in a modest way with that. So a lot of good things. 00:23:29 I called Bill Baldwin and said, “Well, now that we know what the law is, we ought to have another meeting and see how we can get acquainted in Michigan to working on these issues.” He said, “Well, I invited you to lunch last time, you ought to invite us to lunch this time.” [laughs] This is getting into the role I tried to play, a concern with infrastructure within philanthropy in Michigan. I worked on inviting people from family foundations, from independent foundations like Mott and Kresge and Kellogg, family foundations like Dow, community foundations like Kalamazoo, and there were a few, and then corporate grantmakers. So we had lunch and talked about the advantage of having a statewide meeting, getting acquainted and so forth. And so I was chairman of the first conference of Michigan foundations. We met over in Ann Arbor at a motel that had a Schuler’s restaurant. That was a fascinating experience, and that’s where I first got acquainted with S.S. Kresge, Stan Kresge was there; just a delightful guy. That’s another whole story. I’ve been blessed with great experiences. But one of the exercises we did at each luncheon session was to talk about the future, each meal session. So the first question, “Should we begin thinking about a conference another year, next year? How should that be planned and organized?” So out of that process we ended up, by noon on the final day, three days, with a committee established to plan next year’s event, a committee to think about organizing some way for continuity, so moving from a conference to a council, and third, how could the whole thing be funded? That led to the creation of the Council of Michigan Foundations, as one of what we call RAGS, Regional Association of Grantmakers. [CMF is] the strongest of any of the country, the premier. We’d be in desperate problems with state and federal public policy issues and so forth if we didn’t have this organization working on improving governance, the governing �boards, the trustees, staff, preparation, pre-service and in-service training, policy issues, and all the rest. So that created the Council of Michigan Foundations, but then when you begin to work in difficult public policy issues, like payout for example, foundations can lobby, but on very narrow topics. We can’t do anything on health care or education or economics. We are just directly related to the legal status of foundations. So, the ones who are the really important then in most of those public policy matters are the grantees. I always call us the givers and the doers. In our mindset at Kellogg, I always said the most important players in this whole process of philanthropy are the ones who are making it happen in the lives of people and institutions, communities, and neighborhoods. Everything we do [as grantmakers] should be un-bureaucratic, we should be responsive, we should have quick turnaround time. The greatest disservice you can do to an applicant is to delay the decision, particularly if you sense it’s going to be negative. That’s the worst thing, to wait and wait and wait and wonder if it’s going to happen, because if you’re the applicant, you don’t want to go off on another direction if the answer hasn’t come yet. So our attitude was always, get back, and if you’re going to be gone, your secretary or someone else can handle that problem, particularly if it’s a crisis. 00:27:40 We began to recognize the importance of collaboration between the grantmakers and the grantseekers; with the grantseekers, the ones who do, because they have contact with legislators and congressmen and all of their communities. If it’s an issue, for example, on the liability responsibility of a volunteer, and if you’re a volunteer and something happens to one of the kids or the adults, do you have personal, legal responsibility? So, all of the different aspects of nonprofit organization operation. Again, through informal conversation, [it was] decided that we needed to do something about bringing together the nonprofit world differently. I see the world simplistically in our society; one is the for-profit, business-making sector of society. That’s the generator of resources, and so that’s tremendously important. That’s the private sector. The second sector of course is public sector of government at all levels. Very important that we have good government locally, in the school district, the village, county, state, nationally. So that’s imperative. The third is the nonprofit sector. Usually, of course dependent upon the private sector, but usually with a lot of relationships both in policy and in practice, because most nonprofit organizations get some tax money also in one way or another with all of the things going on. So, those three sectors, and we needed to get together. In consultation, picked ten statewide nonprofit organizations that had operations statewide in education, and health, and the arts, we had the United Way, and so forth, invited these ten organizations to come together, bringing two people: one, the chairman of the board, the citizen volunteer which is on the chair of the governing board, and then the chief professional officer, chief of staff. 00:29:55 So we invited those 20 people to sit down and talk [on areas of common concern]. Immediately of course, those in Big Brothers Big Sisters are in competition with the YMCA for money. So, we’ve got an element of realistic competition but, on more important issues, a lot of common concerns. We identified the business of recruitment of trustees and their training and how they understand their serious responsibilities in governance, staff issues, etc. One of the big problems for small scale nonprofits of course are benefits; health benefits and retirement benefits. By �collaboration our little unit can’t do it but we can be a part of the Michigan Nonprofit Association. So out of that meeting we set up [special committees], looking at what are the common issues, what can be the goals, what are the kinds of things to go on, what about the first meeting, how do we put together an organization and how might it operate long term. The first meeting we called the Michigan Nonprofit Forum, just come together and talk. And again out of that a process, leading [to organize] legally as a forum, three or four years later named it the Association. And again, it just makes such a tremendous difference in the viability of the nonprofit sector broadly. That was the second one that I got to be the founding chairman or whatever. Third, the Council of Michigan Foundations was [established in] the early 1970s. The founding date of MNA is 1990. In 1991 too then, there were two developments that began to take shape. At the federal level, there was talk of a domestic Peace Corps, of providing [service] opportunities [for youth;] became AmeriCorps in which young people, people of all ages, but basically it’s people from 18 to 25 could come together [in programs of public service]. If there was going to be funding, there had to be an entity created in the state to manage that. And so I was involved in the planning of the Michigan Community Service Commission. I did not become a member of it, but helped organize that including funding to get it started. Then, [later I] actually became a member. The commission is governor-appointed and Governor Engler was concerned as his term limit was coming up and Mrs. Engler chaired the commission. How do we make the transition to the next administration? [They wanted a credible citizen, without strong political identification.] So, the Governor and First Lady asked me to become a member of the commission and be chairman. When there was a year and half yet in his term, I became chair, to deal with the transition. Then of course Governor Granholm was elected and contacted the First Gentleman, Dan Mulhern, lawyer by training, great volunteer, great leader. Both he and the Governor committed to mentoring. So we met with Dan and persuaded him that he would be the public chair, so I resigned as chair but have continued on the commission at the Governor’s request. 00:33:56 Then the fourth [statewide initiative on philanthropy] that I’ve been involved in is Dorothy A. Johnson Center on [for] Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership. The whole area of philanthropy had not been a recognized field of study: research, concentration, education and so forth. But it started in some limited ways at Case Western Reserve, Yale and [elsewhere] with a course or two, or with a little office side lined, not a part of the intellectual life of the institution. The one exception was at Indiana, where with marvelous support from the Lilly Endowment, Indiana University had created the Center on Philanthropy. Bob Payton became, maybe the second head, the real dynamo in orchestrating the development of that. Bob had a distinguish career in academia, had been University President, Ambassador to a couple of African countries and then was one of the corporate grantmakers for one of the big oil companies, Esso I think. Anyway, Bob did a great job of integrating the concept of philanthropy (giving of time, and talent, and treasure) [throughout] the institution. They have adjunct professors in every college: in law, in engineering, in business, as well as the social sciences and so forth. �I think that’s the goal at Grand Valley State, to make [philanthropy an integrated part of the institution]. Because whether your life is in teaching or one of the professions or business, your civic responsibilities require you to, the expectation is that you, so that having a part of it in the process. The Lilly [Endowment] was the major funder; Kellogg became a major [partner]. I was never on the board of the Center, but they have an advisory group very much engaged, a major supporter again with another donor out of New York City. So began to feel that in Michigan, we needed to have a [university-based] center on philanthropy somewhere because this concept even in the private liberal arts colleges where you would think it would be a natural because they’re dependent upon that their lifeblood, not in the curriculum much of anywhere. 00:36:25 (JS) But it wasn’t a conventional academic subject. It didn’t fit into a box. And again in a way it’s also the application of things as opposed to the theory. (RM) That’s right…So, wanted to get it in [Michigan]. In my role, I was on first name basis with the Presidents of a lot of the colleges in Michigan. We had a lot of activity with the University of Michigan, with Wayne State University, with Michigan State, with Western Michigan, with some of the private schools. And then as Grand Valley came along, became engaged there. So finally what we weren’t successful in getting any spark, you know got to have somebody somewhere that wants to make it happen. So finally invited all of the public and private colleges in Michigan, so Alma, Hope, Calvin, Grand Valley, all invited to a meeting; talked about the idea, just talked about what’s going in, had the report of what Indiana was doing, etc. Had a roundtable discussion and we adjourned, said, let us know if you have any interest. And there was one spark. [laughs] Good old friend Don Lubbers, whom I’d known a long time. And so that’s why the center is at Grand Valley State. Comes back to that whole notion that people make things happen, money doesn’t make it happen in itself. Money’s useful but money doesn’t make anything happen. 00:38:00 (JS) Of course, Lubbers was certainly an entrepreneurial spirit but if he was somewhere and saw a good idea or whatever he wanted to go with it. I kind of miss that now but that’s a personal aside. But anyway, so pick up on that. But, what did he have to do or what had to happen then to actually sort of make that center happen? He says, “Okay, good idea...” (RM) Yes, well then, you unearthed it, that’s up to them. How do they want to organize it? Look at what Yale’s doing, Case Western, their own experience, and so forth. How would you organize it? Again, the contribution that the foundation can make in those discussions of someone, if you’re working on whatever the child care or whatever, and an applicant comes, is if you can sort of sometimes be helpful saying, well have you seen what they’re doing in South Chicago or what they’re doing in Los Angeles or whatever. Have you thought about this, that, or the other? So there would be discussion based on, we’d talk with, how are they organizing �things, how do they get adjunct professors in engineering and business to be concerned about philanthropy and so forth, so interactive process but it really has to be the grantee. In my judgment, if a foundation put together a blueprint saying this is the way you’ve got to do it if you’re going to do it with our money, it’s a dead issue. It’s never the university’s program. That was the philosophy, Mr. Kellogg’s philosophy I believe, that he had always had confidence in the volunteers, he wanted the citizenship leader, he had great respect for the professions but he respected them, and he didn’t tell them how it ought to be done. He monitored, he was very much engaged, concerned, etc. So that’s the general philosophy that I tried to build in as we went through tremendous expansion. So those are the four areas in Michigan. [CMF, MNA, MCSC, and the Johnson Center for Philanthropy] Now at the national level, I was involved with the Council on Foundations, which is the counterpart of CMF. It was located in New York City. There were two entities there: the Council on Foundations and the Foundation Center. The Council on Foundations, and if you please, a trade association with this group, the Foundation Center, an intellectual fact-based resource, had to be credible. 00:40:33 Now there was a pressure to put the two together, and I resisted that along with others saying that’s the wrong way. If the Council becomes the factual resource about their own business, it will never be credible; it has to have an autonomy. The net of that was to move the Council on Foundations’ headquarters to Washington where the political action is. The Foundation Center is still in New York City. It has relationships with individual libraries and has some other major centers. I had not been engaged directly except indirectly in supporting of the center. The foundation had been involved long before my time in helping create the Center had helped create the Council on Foundations, but the big foundations didn’t participate, and that needed to be changed. And so, I was a part of a smaller group to get Ford and Rockefeller and Carnegie and the rest of us active. Not dominating, but we had to be a part of the game to make it comprehensive. But then they invited me at the Foundation Center - they needed to move from old technology, ballpoints pens or whatever, to computers. And so they came out in 1987 and asked me to become engaged with the fundraising drive. And they needed to raise $7 million to computerize the Foundation Center. They had put together a grand plan, we were going to have regional groups, and we were going to have a national group, and we were going to have a celebrity group and I said yeah, I agree with the purpose but that’s a bunch of busy work. We ought to be able to raise $7 million with 15 phone calls. So we did. But we raised $10 million. I went on the board then and was chair in the transition of leadership there. And then went off the board. I was on the board for five or six years of the Foundation Center as we made the transition both in technology and in leadership. I was also on the board of the Council of Foundations. And we had gone through, and I hadn’t been on the board but they had two or three different executive directors that hadn’t worked out well, and became a member of what I always called “the search and seizure committee.” [laughs] I got Jim Joseph, just an exciting guy who was with Columbia, [inaudible] and got him to be the president. Then I was chairman a year, then the darn, I guess it was House Committee, wanted to take up the excess business holdings again and I was on the �wrong side of the issue, so I resigned as chair because I was going to testify saying, “If the stock is publically traded it’s different than a privately held [asset].” So I was very active at the national level, and chaired the policy committee of COF, for two, three years and so forth. 00:43:59 So I had the privilege of being involved in a lot of those issues. Interesting at the foundation then, itself, one of the issues was making philanthropy a legitimate area of study concentration and so forth in the academy, and the second one was leadership. Because it was a long time that the great debate was, are leaders born and so inherited and Lord so-and-so passes it on to his kids and so forth or can leadership skills at all be taught? There was just absolute division of thought on that. My own orientation was well, there is such a thing as positional leadership if you get to be president of the country, you’re in a leader, that’s a power position. But there are lots of leadership opportunities. My definition of a leader is pretty simple: a leader is anybody who sees either an opportunity or a problem and does something about it. And if it’s recreational activities in the neighborhood for the kids, it’s a different person that’s going to start a little league softball team, than someone who is going to deal with public access to technology and healthcare, whatever. So, had observed that in applications, and I’d learned so much about health and education and all sorts of things that were just fascinating, some mysteries became very concerning. Anyway, felt that we were getting proposals by superb specialists, but none of the serious problems can be dealt with by one specialty. And the key in leadership then, is to develop a capacity beyond your own specialty to mobilize the others whose skills you need in order to put the whole package together. I always use the example in Michigan simplistically, the underground water supply. All of us drink underground water. Ok and we’re concerned with purity of underground water. That’s basically the responsibility of township government. It’s not even county or state, it’s township government. But if you’re concerned with underground pollution, you have to be concerned with technology, you’ve got to know soil structure, and filtration rates, and etc., and you have to see where the underground streams are going, so you’ve got to have that technology. But the solutions then in dealing with those were all political, and economic, and institutional. You have to get the township board, the county board and the state. So you’ve got to mobilize those specialties. So we had superb specialists bringing in proposals designed on their specialty, inadequate to deal with the problem. 00:47:15 So in 1980, the celebration of the 50th anniversary of Mr. Kellogg’s foundation, we created the Kellogg National Fellowship Program, a leadership program specifically to recruit young women and men who had already established some degree of expertise and even reputation in their field. And they’re probably in their late twenties, early thirties, late thirties, varied. But generally in that, let’s say the age of the thirties, could join in a three year fellowship experience to broaden their perspective, and coming together for group seminars on issues in this country and skills and so forth, having an international experience both collectively as a group and individually. Each then to develop their own study plan which had to be outside their specialty, it just can’t make me a deeper sociologist. I’ve got to get into something quite different, and it could be music, or �medieval history, but broaden your perspective. And develop skills then in helping to look at issues that need to be addressed collectively, skills to bring those together. And so we started the Kellogg National Fellowship Program in 1980. Sort of announced it saying, gosh we are going to do this in celebration of the 50th anniversary. There ought to be at least one group of Kellogg Fellows. If it seems to have promise we’ll continue it. If it doesn’t then we will just write a grand report saying we celebrated. [laughs] Well it became dramatically successful, and you find physicists with theologians with economists. The toughest group for us to include, the academic world could accommodate and visualize that very easily, business, a little more difficult, and in your business career, some degree of risk in moving out of your track to broaden. In some areas of the academic world, real risk in moving out, because you’re suppose to get narrower and narrower, not only your left foot, it’s the big toe, so in specialization. So some problem there, but the most difficult for legal reasons was to engage anybody from the public sector, if there were a growing administrator in the department of public health, department of education, difficult. But bright young people and just fascinating the kinds of experiences they had, and again practical experiences. I remember meeting with a group you know that were going to spend the night in the emergency room at Detroit Metro Hospital. Well, you know, they saw a sector of society, you know they’d been teaching at a university, never saw the kinds of people, the kind of problems that people out of desperation, the only place they could go to was the emergency room. We tried to get them into a whole variety of settings, nationally and internationally. Following that then, we began to get more acceptance of the concept of leadership and I’m surprised you know now, I look at catalogs and College of Medicine will have two or three courses focusing on leadership, or engineering, business and so forth. So that it, I think, is becoming a credible area and I think the foundation had a useful role in that. 00:51:29 So, those are just some thoughts about some of the areas that we tried to give emphasis. We had some early starters, that (I retired in ’95) I wish they had continued but didn’t. One was foster care, the whole concern with families for kids. We had demonstrations in seven different places, some at the county, some at the state level, with a goal of termination of parental rights when it seems so obvious that it ought to be done. A lot of kids are held in that terrible situation for three or four or five years beyond when really they need to get out of a dysfunctional home family situation. So goal was one policy regarding parental rights, still protecting but not making - it’s really disturbing to me when you read about a youngster who’s been adopted and seven years later the dad comes back and had never signed the release. So this youngster that’s had a family for seven years is now put back with dad who didn’t care. So parental release, and then one foster care family and permanent placement within a year, because these little guys we dealt with have been in eight or ten foster care families, no continuity, no tomorrow for them. So some disappointment, but that just disappeared. But that’s just changing and life moves on. So those are some of the thoughts about that. (JS) We covered an awful lot of material here and I want to return a little bit to the business of sort of philanthropy as an academic discipline or something to train people in. Why was it �particularly important to kind of get that established and to launch programs and do this? What was the need there for that? 00:53:47 (RM) You know, a part of it, one of the unique aspects of the founding of America it seems to me, is that it came in with no governmental structure. And most of the initiatives, because there was no government, was voluntary action. Four of us decided our kids needed a school, and we’re going to do something about that and we get others and we start a school. Or we need a health clinic and so forth. It developed really in our society as a great tradition and sort of an expectation. We give more as volunteer time. We lend our talent to the board and to volunteer leadership. We give money. The biggest source of funds, of course, is individual giving, not foundation giving, not corporate giving, it’s individual giving. That needs to be sort of an expectation of good civic responsibility. Usually it’s not been incorporated in an organized way, even in courses, where I don’t see how you can study history, for example, without recognizing that it was all volunteers that ran the Underground Railroad. It never would have happened otherwise because government couldn’t do it, but citizens did. Issue after issue after issue, it’s volunteer action that get things started and to try to build that in, and to learn some lessons on how, why people are motivated, develop a concept of accountability, sense of responsibility. I go back to five basic values when I look at anything. I’ve looked at the value of honesty, the value of caring, the value of respect, (I may disagree but I can be respectful and respect for other positions) sense of responsibility for self and beyond self, and then fairness. We don’t very often talk about those things as being important in life. All you have to do is look at what happened in greed in the last two years. Ethics has been destroyed. 00:56:13 PART 3 (JS) You’ve done a lot here in terms of laying out sort of the set of principles and ideas that you followed and worked with and have kind of followed main parts of your career path and so forth. Is there a particular initiative or thing that you kind of got involved in or helped promote that you are kind of particular proud of that you haven’t brought up yet? (RM) Well, as I think nationally, internationally, we haven’t talked about geography. I mentioned the foundation started in seven counties, spread nationally into Latin America in 1942, to Europe after World War II and went for about 30 years. And the concern in Europe, why would a foundation go to Europe after World War II? It was because of food systems. After World War I, Europe industrialized, and they imported raw materials and food. Food production and agriculture stagnated. They were still using the technology of the teens in the ’40s. And when the Germans came in and took the food, those countries did not have the capacity to feed themselves. They were concerned with the revitalization of food systems and then the quality again of quiet life in the countryside. So the foundation became involved with fellowships in �Finland, Sweden, Denmark, West Germany, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and the Republic of Ireland. 00:57:58 As the director of agriculture I had to go to those countries each year, tremendous experience, but a concentration on fellows coming here for advanced study in all of the specialties of Agriculture, Engineering, and Marketing, and Horticulture and so forth. Plus then an emphasis on women’s role in community life, the most powerful women’s organization I ever experienced was the Irish Country Women’s Association. Marvelous example of where women took the initiative in changing the role of women in society through their organization. It was a time when, for example, women couldn’t study in the college of agriculture. The concern then with rural youth also, and 4H or young farmers’ clubs and so forth, so fascinating period of time, then Europe changed. We began looking then as a board at geography and studied the continent of Africa, which is a very troubled continent, then looked at Latin America. In 1980 we began to phase out over a five year period of our direct involvement in Europe and doubled our activities in Latin America, all the way from Mexico south and then began to look at Africa. In 1985 then, and it was a period of course when apartheid in South Africa became a great issue, appropriately so. The Kellogg Company was experiencing shareholder requests to divest, get out of South Africa. And Bill LaMothe, who was then chairman, and I was on the board because of my role with the trust, and when you’re at the company board meeting you have a completely different professional governance role then at the foundation concerned with every shareholder and their best interest. Shareholder requests a couple of years to divest, and Bill said to the board of directors simply, “I can’t do that,” he said, “We have been there since 1947, I’ve been there, I’ve given our employees 25 year pins, we have more than exercised the Sullivan Principles, we have blacks in every aspect: finance, and production, and sales. We are involved in the villages in improving schools, and housing loans and health services.” He said, “I can’t. If we sell it will go either to a German company, Japanese, or South African and all of that will be lost”. So he asked three members of the board to go to South Africa and talk with anybody we want to before we go, anybody there, come back with a recommendation to the board of directors. And named Pete Estes who had retired as President of General Motors and had gone through a lot of those exercises with their operation in South Africa, Paul Smucker of the jam and jelly company and me. Now I had talked with our [Foundation] board ahead of time then because we had been thinking about South Africa, so I went with, in a sense, two questions in my mind, as we met with labor leaders, Kellogg was the first to have an organized black labor union. Went into the villages, talked with government officials, both sides of the issue, came back and recommended that the company stay. That leading the playing field you can’t make much difference in the game. 01:01:56 And I recommended then to our board that we begin a program of bursaries. There I discovered that most of the big universities were all integrated, and in their judgment there were more qualified blacks to come to the university than they had scholarship support for. So we picked �five areas. We picked the health professions, food systems, education, business administration, and public administration, because there need to be more blacks qualified in all of those fields with new opportunities. Then in talking over there, they said people from foundations, they come and talk to us and then nothing ever happens. So we authorized the vice president to go and meet with those universities, half a dozen of them I think initially, to talk about their situation and to end up right at the end of the meeting saying, we’ll start. You’ll have 20 fellowships starting this fall for undergraduates. We’ll see them through to the completion of their degree so long as they continue to make progress. [snaps fingers] It started immediately. That would be 19[85]…I went in February and the first group was that fall, quick. So that five years later, apartheid of course ended much more quickly. By then some of these people could move very quickly in the bursaries. So geographically moved in that way and then expanded the program after I retired. So I’ve been pleased with some of those initiatives, sort of counter, but it’s back to what’s right. [laughs] What should you be doing. I want to mention also; I talked earlier about youth and prolonged adolescence. Council of Michigan Foundations had a goal of spreading the community foundation concept throughout the state. You had it here there and elsewhere and voids in some areas. They wanted to develop a program so we could say that every community in Michigan has access to a community foundation. You get to the northern part in the Upper Peninsula, it’s not the population base and economic base to have a community foundation, but you can have regional ones, and sub-groups within one organization. So they came with a proposal and we talked about that. That was encouraging, but then said, well this looks interesting, put together your plan as we talked about. But please think about how you might engage teenagers. How can we get kids more responsibly involved? Because they’ve got energy, they’re smart, they have the right values, they want to do things. And they came back with what they Michigan Community Foundation Youth Program, MCFYP. Each community foundation, in order to qualify, the foundation could qualify for a Kellogg matching grant up to a million dollars, but to do so they had to establish a youth advisory council. 01:05:15 The Kellogg money had to go into the youth account. Now the matching, they could use it in the youth account or they could put it into whatever their local situation was but Kellogg dollars: a youth account. The kids involved then in managing it, particularly in making grants from the income. So in every community foundation you would have a youth advisory council, basically high school age, 14, 15, 16 through high school. Sometimes if they go to a community college they may be still local but whatever. And, gee, I’ve sat in on some of those meetings. They’re tougher than the foundation board. You know they’d say, “Well that’s fine Jim, that’s a good idea but if you change this and this you could get that done for $75 instead of $90. We’ll give you $75.” [laughs] Very thoughtful, careful. And we’ve done, on some of these things, longitudinal studies to see what happens later. And you’ve got ten years later, they’re now graduated, they’re working, they’re married etc., etc. But they are engaged. I’ve just been pleased with that youth initiative. �The other change that we accomplished then in Michigan, in order to be on a nonprofit board you have to be 18 years of age, on a board of directors. But we got an exception. A nonprofit board can have 16 and 17 year olds on the voting board. Now there’s some specifics: the majority have to be adult. Increasingly you think about the YWCA board, or the Urban League board or on, on, and on, even a nursing home board, if you get kids involved, the service projects out of school will began to relate to nursing homes, etc. So it just begins to make a difference, so excited by that change. (JS) Now, are there particular things that you tried that really didn’t work in terms of that stands out in your memory? 01:07:35 (RM) There were three things that again, you hear me coming through and that’s just because people had the privilege of having a certain role based on experiences in the past. One that I really hoped we could do something about is to do something to strengthen the role of the America family. The role of the family in the lives of so many kids has sort of disappeared, disintegrated, unraveled; and most kids who end up as unproductive adults are a consequence of inadequate home and family situation in the early years. Look at those who are in prison or perpetually on welfare, etc., etc., just a disastrous kind of dysfunctional situation. We did some things but never really felt we found any way of addressing that tension. The second area that I am continued to be concerned about is our public school system. I’ve given speeches on this for the last 25 years; we’ve done some bits and pieces. But basically the public school system was established and institutionalized in 1835 with Horace Mann in Massachusetts after the North West Ordinance 1787, support for the one room country school, when he put together the curriculum: start school when the potatoes are dug and quit school when it’s time to plant corn. And it made sense in 1835, doesn’t make sense now, that ten weeks of the school year is wrong, the school day is wrong, with the state changing the role of the family and yet some of those things are just locked in. We made a little difference in the middle school, but, and some interesting little demonstrations, but nothing which has changed anything in the system and I’m really concerned now that Michigan, you know, is moving to an 18 year stay in school. I think just that compounds the problem unless we change the nature of high school for so many kids. Not every one of them see any reason for four years of math, and to make that a requirement to be a high school graduate is just going to, seems to me, be counterproductive. And every youngster needs the opportunity to go to college and every, certainly ought to do something beyond high school. Not necessary a baccalaureate, it would be disastrous. A lot of jobs wouldn’t get done if we all had to have a bachelor’s degree. So, we’re just not facing that issue at all. And the third is even more subtle and it’s reinvigorating caring, in what I call the caring professions. This is an old farm boy, doesn’t know any better, he thinks when he’s practicing pulling weeds out of the garden. The caring professions, what are they? Health obviously; education obviously, every effective teacher is a caring teacher despite the details that are imposed; third, the whole welfare social services system; fourth, the judicial system; fifth, theology. �And we’ve lost so much of the caring component and we benefit from superb specialization and so forth, but somehow the caring dimension is not encouraged and is not in a sense rewarded. A teacher now in the third grade classroom and the seventh grade classroom success is based on a MEAP score, which is something that’s just quantifiable in very specific terms, and no credit at all for the nurturing, they call it soft skills, of human relationships. The biggest problem whether it’s the family or neighborhood or the county or the world, is people getting along with people. And those are the soft skills and we have no way of putting caring… (JS) You can’t quantify them or put them on a test. (RM) You can’t, and that really troubles me. That’s unfinished business. I was never smart enough to identify, I always saw my role as a CEO to identify with people and stay out of their way and help whenever I could. 01:12:31 (JS) Alright, well, it makes for a very good story, so I’d like to thank you for taking the time to tell it to us today. (RM) Good! 01:12:35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/020a4e1705e46f8f4f614dbb4b328619.mp4 d795e39b112664440cd54164d98014cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (JCPA-08)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mawby, Russell G. video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. Description An account of the resource Russ Mawby discusses his youth on a fruit farm and involvement with 4H and the Boy Scouts, his agricultural studies at Michigan State and Purdue Universities, and his military service in the US Army. He reflects on the history of the Kellogg family, the Kellogg Company, and the W.K. Kellogg Foundation, and his work as CEO of the W.K. Foundation. He details efforts of the Foundation in Michigan and abroad, his involvement with the Council on Foundations and the Foundation Center, and his work developing the Council of Michigan Foundations, Michigan Nonprofit Association, Michigan Community Service Commission, and the Johnson Center for Philanthropy. He concludes with reflections on the initiatives that have given him the most pride, and those that still need the most work. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership, Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Personal narratives Charities Michigan Associations, institutions, etc. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_MawbyR Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Relation A related resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e698ac1343b520c4d858a98e88759b9a.mp4 0f21052d0112e7ee36b0d433f3b8d09a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d47237c6c8b6b431bf740497ef8610bd.pdf 48f4652691fdc00dd945a3ff7cfb3b1f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Kay Maxson Korean War Era (53:12) Background Information (00:14)         Born in Lowell, Michigan, in 1933.(00:18) His parents were divorced when he was a 9 in 1942. (00:40) He lived with his mother. (1:05) He attended high school in Lowell. (1:23) He graduated from high school in 1951. He enlisted in the Navy Reserve in January of 1951.he had no intention of going to college. (1:45) He moved to Galesburg, Michigan, with his father because it was closer to Grand Rapids Michigan where he was stationed. (2:20) In January of 1952 he was told he would be going into active duty. (2:30) At the time of his enlistment (1951) he had 2 siblings enlisted in the military and was very aware of the conflicts in Korea. (2:46) Basic training (3:25)        He was at Great Lakes Naval Base for 8 weeks for basic training in January of 1952. (3:25) Many of the soldiers he trained with were from southern states and other areas in the U.S. (3:40) In spite it being winter the men still did PT (physical training) outside. The men were also trained in swimming, weapons and even how to fight oil fires. (4:04) There was a great emphasis on discipline during basic. He didn’t have too much difficulty adjusting to this. (4:38) He had a lot of experience with water and boating before his naval training. (5:38) After Basic training he was sent to Norfolk, Virginia by train. (6:20) He served aboard the USS Oriskany, an air craft carrier. It was 189 feet long and 59 feet wide on the flight deck and 40 feet to the flight deck from the water. (7:11) Service aboard the USS Oriskany and in the Korean conflict (8:00)       The ship was originally supposed to travel through the Panama Canal but was 5 feet too wide. (8:25) The Ship stopped in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and then Rio De Janeiro, Brazil. (8:30) While in Peru, the ship got a liberty boat. Due to storms the Oriskany could not keep the liberty boat. (9:20) The ship than stopped for 2-3 days in Chile. (9:50) Most civilians had a positive outlook on the American sailors. (10:36) The ship was “tight” for 3 days due to a horrible storm that was passed while going around Cape Horn. (11:17) �               The ship than arrived in California and got a “green squadron” or a new squadron of aircraft. (13:12) The ship then docked in Hawaii and stayed there for 1 week. Than the ship circled the island for 1 week in order to give the new squadron practice landing on a moving ship. (14:13) Kay worked damage control. This included many tasks including refilling the CO2 bottles on aircraft. (14:45) During practice, several aircraft ran out of gas. The squadron lost planes but no pilots. (16:00) After a week in Hawaii the ship docked in Hong Kong for a good will mission. (17:42) Because this aircraft carrier was the first to arrive in Vietnam since World War II, the ship was met with much celebration. (18:10) He did not have the immediate perception that there were many Chinese refugees there. (19:48) Next the Ship Docked in Yokosuka, Japan. Here the men took R and R. (20:28) The ship then moved to North Korea where they patrolled 7-8 miles away from shore. (20:41) Occasionally the ship would be warmed of enemy submarines. (21:28) The ship did have escorts including 6 destroyers. (21:41) Due to an accident with a bomb on the ship, 2 men were killed, 7 were injured, and the ship was damaged. After this the ship was out of commission for 24 hours. (21:30) The carrier deck at this time (1952) was made of wooden planking. (24:42) Kay had exact knowledge of what the ship’s mission was and what the air aircraft aboard the ship was being sent out to do. (25:07) Aside from enemy submarines, Kay himself was never under threat of enemy attack during his service. (26:39) Life and Experiences aboard Ship (28:00)            While ashore in Japan, he was surprised with how friendly the Japanese people were to Americans. (28:45) He did have 1 weekend in Tokyo. He traveled by train to get from port to Tokyo. (31:00) While in Japan, there was little evidence that a war had recently ended there. (32:10) He arrived on ship in April 1952 and got off in September 1953. (32:35) There where black and white sailors aboard ship. There weren’t any discrimination problems. (34:07) Because he didn’t like seeing the big cities too often, he would often be paid to take other men’s watch duty so that they could go into town. (35:30) When charring supplies the men had to carry it on their shoulders because the hallways where so narrows. (37:10) The men pulled into Yokosuka to dock before heading back to the US. But on May Day (May 1st 1953) the men were supposed to come home. However because no one in Japan was working on that day, the men left one day later (May 2nd) (39:54) The ship did not stop often on its way back to San Francisco. (41:03) He was given an early discharge in October of 1953 instead of February of 1954. (42:33) Kay was given an opportunity to reenlist in the Naval Reserve; However, Kay turned it down. (43:50) Life after Discharge (43:00) �      When arriving in San Francisco it was so foggy the men couldn’t see the Golden Gate Bridge. (45:50) After finishing his service he attended college on the GI Bill. He spent 2 years at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo Michigan and 1 year at Wayne State University in Detroit Michigan. He studied mortuary science. (47:13) He married a woman from Kalamazoo Michigan. (47:33) Due to the GI bill he and his wife he actually made money while he was going to school. (48:55) He worked for his father-in-Law. (50:04) He received his mortuary license in 1957 and his insurance license in 1958. (50:20) Thoughts on Service (51:00)    He thinks positively on the experience his military service gave him. (51:05) He is particularly moved by his visit to Pearl Harbor.(51:30) He believes his service made him a better student in college and gave him direction in life. (52:20) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MaxsonK1168V Title A name given to the resource Maxson, Kay (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maxson, Kay Description An account of the resource Kay Maxson, born in Lowell Michigan in 1933, enlisted in the Naval Reserve in early 1951, and was called to active duty in January, 1952. Trained in fire and damage control, he was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Oriskany. After he joined the ship at Norfolk, Virginia, it sailed to Guantanamo and to Panama, but the ship turned out to be too wide to get through the Canal, and had to go around the Horn instead to reach the Pacific, and was damaged in the processed. They stopped in Chile and Peru, then went to San Francisco to pick up its aircraft, and then went to Hawaii to train the pilots before going on to Korea. They crossed the Pacific and visited Hong Kong, Vietnam and Japan, and patrolled off the North Korean coast before returning to port in 1953. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-09-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9378a82c74f13e419051f00673e44193.mp4 5dfd765051a02127233aae6d20274f1f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5f19865aa338d959612bcace77b9725.pdf 159a46df6684d9403448abba6d6d5ab6 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Robert Mayberry Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 2 [Barbara] I really want you to start by talking about our placement – our historical placement – the sense of continuity before and after James. Where did we come from? [Mayberry] I would say – which maybe I was not all clear about the time and may or not be all clear about now – but it seems to me that William James College came from two long run movements. The one called Progressive Education, which is really founded by the pragmatic philosophers, especially Dewey, but James played a role in that beforehand and what's called the General Education movement. And both of these are movements that responded to quite major reorganization of American education that occurred, more or less, in the eighteen-eighties and eighteen-nineties – in other words, relatively recently and the grandest historical scheme of things – but a reorganization that in effect replaced the traditional American college, which had as its purpose the education of undergraduates, primarily the liberal education of undergraduates for citizenly roles by the research university on the German Model. And among other things the replacement of the MA (which was the traditional teaching degree coming down from the middle ages from England) by the PhD, which was the research degree in the German university. So once the new university – which Johns Hopkins was a pioneer – had effectively consolidated its control in the places where the old colleges like Harvard and Yale were and smaller colleges also came under some pressure to imitate this new model, the functions were kind of left over and undone that used to be specifically undergraduate functions because things – the curriculum especially and departmentalization, which had followed upon this free organization – had kind of taken away the general and liberal education functions. So there began to be a persistent appearance of movements every – I don't know the sequency of it, but every decade or so – to try and get a general education back. On a Deweyan side, or the progressive side, I think there was also the sense that for democracy, specifically, liberal education ought to have direct relevance to what people do and of course the citizenly role is again involved, but to their work lives. Along about the middle of the nineteenth century, you had kind of a really strict interpretation – our purist interpretation – of the old classical liberal ideal. That sort of gradually made the idea become that liberal education, by definition, was something useless; that if it could be put to use, you were maybe corrupting the liberal education part of it. And I think progressive education tried to deal with the elimination of the sort of class bias of that �uselessness idea. To get the liberal ideals reattached to the things that someone seeking education in a democratic context would need and to get critical thinking applied, even to occupational concerns. [Mayberry] So, if you take those two movements, kind of converging, and not everybody who came to James certainly aware of those two movements. Nevertheless, we were precipitated, I think, into our attachment to them by being named for William James because when we read William James and try to take William James seriously and were led to the other pragmatic philosophers, like Dewey and Whitehead, we find these two questions – the question of how to relate specialization and generality and how to relate liberal education and occupation – dealt with very centrally and the tradition that, almost by accident, we had been placed. [Barbara] [Inaudible] I'm curious… excuse me, I didn't mean to cut you off. Were you still completing a thought? [Mayberry] Well, after those two – which are long run patterns converging – seems to me the immediate impetus (and this was probably more on people's minds who came here) was the demand that students had in the period, let's say, sixty-eight through seventy-one. That their chief concern - meaning the war – be somehow meaningfully addressed as, indeed, I would say it ought to have been by the materials, even the classical materials of college education; that room be made for the student and be able to meet in the curriculum a sense that curriculum could help the student deal with this overwhelming moral and political problem outside the classroom. And teachers who had wanted to respond to students making that demand and had found themselves blocked by the then highly specialized, highly departmentalized, highly research-oriented university, were looking for a place that they could do some practical work in the reform of education. Which the plural system here – the college system – seemed to offer. So, you take those two long run movements and that short run immediate concern, and I think that's where we came from. [Barbara] Let me check the [Inaudible] and I'm keeping it running. I want to ask you, as an appropriate question, to ask you. But why does it cycle? [Laughter] In other words: forget about how often it cycles. Why do we have some [Inaudible]? Why did we have to be…? I don't mean specifically James. Why does it have to be a cycle, why is there [Inaudible]? [Mayberry] Well, I mean, that's a huge question and I don't know any better than anybody else, but I have some glimmers of ideas. The reorganization of the university was also the professionalization of the faculty and professions, in general, guard their own prerogative. And since that professionalization became effective, movements to reform the university and the colleges themselves are apt to be �viewed as, I think, as threatening to the professional structure of things which can be praised by a defender of it. [Mayberry] By saying that it's threatening to scholarship and research and all those good things that no one really means to attack. So, I think you have a very entrenched set of structures, habits, interests, and powers that's very, very hard to change. I think it's notoriously conservative. On the elementary and secondary level there was a book by Roland Barthes on open education, which is a movement that more or less corresponds to the James movement on a college level. The opening sentence of his book is something like this: "We do not have in the United States, as they do in France, a Centralized Ministry of Education, but we might as well have." I mean it’s a very brilliant sentence of that sort. Because if you take this power structure and social structure and habit structure, I mean, it gets to be unconscious. There's no conspiracy involved. But if you add to that probably the increased market responsiveness of education overtime, you have a pressure for education to be uniform. So that I think the problem remains unsolved, despite repeated attempts to solve it. And every time the perception dawns again that the problem isn't solved – mainly in general education and the relevance of education to life - that we're not getting that solved, you have some new resurgence of the movement to try to deal with it. And there was a third thing I wanted to add there that now I can't think of, besides market responsiveness. [Barbara] [Inaudible] You know I'll cut this part out. [Mayberry] I really can't. I think it got swept away in a parenthesis somewhere. It might come back okay. [Barbara] Okay, I thought that was very, very clear. I mean what you had said was very clear. My second big question was… stop the deck. I'm still… we’re rolling. [Mayberry] So, if you've got that institutional inertia – leaving problems perpetually unsolved, which occasionally call forth somebody who wants to solve them – and you have increased market responsiveness, the question would be: “What is there about market responsiveness that leads to uniformity?” And I think that is something like competition or something like supply and demand. You tend to converge towards products, toward commodities, and education almost becomes a commodity in that context… that there are like products or commodities that have already succeeded. So, I think we fell under some pressure recently, as the times got harder, to do a kind of education that was recognizably the kind that was in demand. The trouble being, of course, that you can never get a demand recorded for a commodity that isn't offered. But there got to be a real sense that Grand Valley ought to be made more like other places. That was operating not just at Grand Valley by the way, but around the country. And so, we entered a cycle of one of the periodic cycles of reaction to the reformers. �[Mayberry] The third thing as to why it should be cyclical is really much more mysterious to me because I used to think it was American culture that tended to be polarized, but it may be Western culture or some people might say it's the human condition, but somehow, we tend to be oppositional. That whole business of reform or stasis becomes a debate rather than a multi-side discussion and so if one side is in the ascendancy, the other side is out and there really isn't anybody in the business of looking for the synthesis that you inquired about. [Barbara] And each other. [Mayberry] I think that when we started in seventy-one, and we were not the first college in the cluster, in fact it was said, well that's tricky. It was said of us that by being the third we had truly made it a cluster. But at the same time, we had perceived that we were coming into a matter that had been settled. There were to the multiple colleges here and that that was, in that sense, the constitution and we could therefore appeal as constitutional to a value like plurality, and the provision of choice to students, and the creation of really distinct approaches to education on the part of faculty. We could appeal to those things as values that were shared. And it is important, I think, from that point of you to remember that a commonness that we did share – unrecognized by almost all participants maybe in the whole thing, but a commonness that we did share, at least with the original CAS faculty – was of being educational innovators and experimenters. They came here to provide an alternative to education such as was offered in the region. Number one: public, because most of the other education off the junior college level is under private auspices. And number two: they were also deeply concerned to recover the liberal education mission for undergraduates. In any case, as long as times were good, the appeal to plurality often worked in context of discussion. That is people [Inaudible] of governance. People were willing, in a way, to adopt a live and let live attitude. Though, as I say, the deeper foundation of why we might have all been committed to that I think went unknown to the participants. Which was really too bad because that might've made the crisis work differently. I think it was also really too bad on the level of public discussion, too, the administration felt that they had set in motion a kind of competitive game, if you will, among these colleges for the sake of promoting enrollment. And from their point of view, anything could persist in the cluster as long as enrollment figures paid off. But their hands-offness was not so much the constitutional live and let live as the above the frayness; seeing people compete with one another and congratulating them when they did well and calling them on it when they did poorly. So, on that level, I think, had we but known some work had not been done to really make the constitution acceptable to everyone. �[Mayberry] And on this other concealed level, there were conversations we didn't know we ought to be having with fellow educational reformers because we were locked in competitive debate. We thought with CAS as the local representative of the kind of institution we'd all come from elsewhere and which we wish to provide an alternative. So, the common ground was not present and when times became bad, the depths of the hostility in certain quarters toward the whole cluster idea – which had been bidding its time to express itself – emerged to a degree, I think, that shocked all of us. I think we did not know the degree of hostility to the very idea of multiple colleges. Which wasn't so much directed with any particularity at William James, it was just directed at the sense that the original mission of Grand Valley had been lost. And, of course, William James was easy to see in that context as one of the waves of professionalism, professional education, which was – from the point of view, again, of the old-time folks here – a grave compromise with the liberal ideal in education. They were just as much upset, of course, with the growth of professional schools and CAS itself as they had been with the growth of anything like William James. And, again, didn't know that James had as much quarrel with a segregated professional education as it did with the segregated liberal education. The notion of the synthesis that we were working on to try and make professional education liberal and liberal education practical – that crossing of the lines was pretty much invisible to people. And I'm not sure that's our fault. That particular segment of the problem I'm not sure is our fault. There again, I think, is where you do run into the problem of the cultural matrix more broadly in which you're trying to present an idea that just is plain hard to see, as clear as you try to articulate it. The dichotomy of liberal and professional is so strongly built into the inertial structure of education, elsewhere people maybe may not even hear the words that you're uttering, clear as you might make them. And I think we made them very clear from time to time – conspicuously clear. Students understand it better than probably either our colleagues or our administration did. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_24_Mayberry Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mayberry, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Robert Mayberry interview (1 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert Mayberry by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Robert Mayberry was one of the founding faculty of William James College and an integral part of the creation of the School of Communications. In this interview, Robert discusses William James College's historical placement at Grand Valley and in society at that time, including its place in the progressive education movement and becoming the third college at Grand Valley. This interview is part 1 of 2 for Robert Mayberry. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6916b8b00300e7d9c374af6663c350f.mp4 d3ef918560bbce498bb16016831b5178 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/93b920cd55b002ebd4ff45a2aa11d9be.pdf 7d8a1926235dbdf13f1dd712ed1b6c8a PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Robert Mayberry Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 2 [Barbara] I'd like to talk about how critical the not giving grades was to the process. [Mayberry] I think that it was essential and after a certain amount of time, those of us whose ideas were maybe stereotype as the most radical to begin with became known as old curmudgeons really because I personally would not rely it on the grade question. We had requests from students to have a certain number of courses optionally graded at James and so on. But I think that it was really essential that it be ungraded for several reasons. Dealing with the question of work seemed to me that what we were after was the notion of vocation. That is that people did things with their lives that they felt called to do and therefore loved to do. That it was genuine work worth doing and for its sake. And it seemed to me that working for grades, which not so much maybe grades as the keeping of a grade point average, the normal accompaniment of the grading system is the grade point average. Working for the grade point average is a standard barrier to the student actually experiencing in their own soul, as Plato would say, what it is like to work for the sake of the thing being done rather than for the external reward and competitive ranking. For the same reason that I oppose grades, I oppose merit raises, by the way, and I was very glad that we did not have merit raises in William James for a lot of reasons. But the same – or very similar – considerations come from the liberal education side. That is to say, liberal education is studying a subject for its own sake and studying it in such a way that one becomes the master of it in a sense and being a free human being in relation to that subject. That it possesses a power of judgment and has not learned something by routine and has not learned something just by the rules, but knows how to do it and, again, it is worth doing, it is worth studying, it is worth knowing for its own sake. Whether that subject is to be a useful subject or one of the classical liberal arts subjects, which incidentally have their own usefulness, from my point of view. That's another subject. But from the two directions – from the liberal side and from the vocational side - it seems to me very important that we not have grades. And my experience now that we've switched back to the grading system (and I'm sure my colleagues who did not go through this transition will find it very mysterious for me to say this), but I really think it was possible to operate with higher genuine standards in an ungraded system because there was never an inhibition on the teacher, say in the conference or in responding to a paper or project. There was never an inhibition about being genuinely critical, and you knew, and the students knew that if you got into a �discussion of that assessment, it was a genuine assessment, and one was not arguing about the grade that was going to be attached to the paper. One could stick to the intellectual questions of the assessment in a way that I find confused and troubled, and I would almost say corrupted by the imposition of the graded situation now that I am to try and discuss these problems with students in the new system. I think we had better criticism and better standards from that point of view. [Mayberry] I think it's true that people who depended upon coercion to work, could slip by a certain distance in the ungraded situation and they were not – because it would've been a contradiction and a hypocrisy – punished by the low grade for doing. But that to me does not represent the absence of standards. That represents the people that we were not within a good time able to reach to convince of a better attitude toward education. And I think it was the risk we had to take to avoid lying to ourselves and to students about what was really important that some students took advantage – took undo advantage – of that system. [Barbara] But a Clover says: "They do now." [Mayberry] Yes, they do now. [Barbara] People slip through now like crazy. [Mayberry] There definitely was doing it under the grading system. And maybe it’s harder to reach those students under the grading system. Because you haven't really tackled – and no one is collectively attempting to tackle – the question of what the truer motivation ought to be: to study and to work. [Barbara] I have to stop this because I'm going to shut the door. Okay. [Mayberry] I think there was a change in the student generations, which my recollection is from about nineteen seventy-four. And it goes back to the polarity question and how someone who is attempting to articulate a synthesis not usually made is perceived or not perceived, but I think it is a rough generalization. In the period seventy-one through seventy-four, the opening years, we were chosen by students who saw us as what was then called alternative education, and they had a degree of commitment to that and they accepted because of that commitment what we said was important about having meaningful work to do. It's kind of like you had to convince them, in those days, that they needed a major. Along about seventy-four, the term career education, which we had been employing, you see, all along, we were career and liberal education from the very beginning, that was all he said. And alternative education being a version of liberal education that people perceived as offering. All of a sudden in seventy- �four, because I think their official policy change of some kind under the Nixon administration, which I'm forgetting the details of, but career education suddenly became a national theme and a national policy. But again, without the synthesis with liberal education. So that suddenly we got students who saw the career side of our programs very clearly – that’s what they wanted. And those students had to be convinced that some of the alternative education systems, like ungradedness, were important in the way that the previous students had to have been convinced that really taking seriously, doing meaningful work, was important. [Mayberry] In each case, what it meant was there was a transition into our kind of education that, again, maybe we did not take consciously enough the need for doing with all our students or did not put into place systematic ways of making that transition. Though, I think most faculty were very much aware of the need for it to happen and did it in their own way and after a while you heard from students that that transition was being made – that their attitudes were changing. The force of personal example maybe on faculty and already established student's part… did that work for us that we had not consciously worked out. But it was one of the real tragedies, I think, in the loss of the collegiate system that people who deal with the questions we dealt with now kind of have to do it alone. There was a support structure for it to be done, there was reinforcement, there was discussion, there was an atmosphere, there was a life that helped to be done and it did not leave the individual teacher out on a market research-oriented limb if trying to deal with some of these deeper issues. [Barbara] Robert, if you had to - and you have to because I'm asking – in a sentence or two, very briefly, what was the essence of William James College? [Mayberry] I don't know if I can do it in a sentence anymore. Well, there was an experience… there's many essences. There was an experience that was recurrent – that’s certainly one of them – and it's an issue we haven't talked about earlier, except very, very tangentially. But the professionalization of academia meant the departmentalization of the university. Students here came to a place that didn't have departments, and therefore where all faculty felt, at least, some imperative to try to deal with general questions and with education and its moral context. Students would come and they would say to visitors: "I can't believe it but the thing I studied in that class turns up in all my other classes. It's like magic!" And you know we never did consciously sit down and say: "Now I'm going to do this today in mine, so you do that in yours." It happened because that discussion began to thrive across the lines. That's at least one of the essences. [Barbara] That's super. Nobody said that clearly to date. No one… you are the first to say that. �[Mayberry] Do you remember when the people for accreditation came and so forth? I think we were in at least one of those committees together when students said that and they never said that to us before and they said it to the… [Barbara] Alright, we need some kind of a comment about the fact that our curriculum… [Mayberry] I think that goes back to two things. I think it goes back again to what it was that we meant by liberal education. And it goes back to what was that original impetus toward what was then called relevance. The liberal education part I think is this: the old American liberal, small liberal arts college, on a religious foundation. And I have to say I went to that kind of college, so I was probably thoroughly inculcate it in it. But it took as the specific mission of undergraduate education a thing that in the early nineteen century was called mental disciple. The idea was you study what were then very classical parts of the curriculum – like logic, rhetoric, and grammar – because they were arts, disciplines, art in synonymous terms, worth knowing. And that lead to the capacity of judgment that I referred to earlier. When the university got reorganized again, and professionalized again, and departmentalized again, I think we ended up with a much more content oriented definition of what liberal education is. It's stuff… it's some of the things that come in some of the packages. It’s a stuff definition, it’s a content definition and not an arts definition of liberal education. And we were saying, I think, that you could vary the stuff some, you could vary the content some. Particularly if there were students who were demanding that liberal education connect with the things that were vital concern to their lives. And you could, nevertheless, hope that out of different kinds of stuff – sometimes in unrecognizable packages – you could still get to the important questions about art, and judgment, and discipline, and thinking, and criticism, and self-direction. That you didn't have to have all of those packages be the packages out of which the issues of great concern could be drawn. You can't have no content. Again, the dichotomizing tendency made people think that if we were stressing the art then we would do without content. You can't have no content. But the idea was that the content could vary and that we would be clever enough to see, in the old-fashioned terms, the mental discipline problems that may arise from quite a variety of content. Nor did our content ever vary to the extent that TJC's did. On this campus, I think maybe we were misperceived somewhat because we had involving parts of the curriculum and another part that was quite steady. Well I think the reason that it was allowed to vary was that we saw the demand for relevancy as a legitimate one on the part of students and we saw the possibility of getting the classical arts issues out of various content and not just out of the packages that have recently been packaged. I mean in the last fifty, sixty years the packages have been invented that everybody says are traditional… [Barbara] Alright I'm sorry, just a false start. Please go ahead. Please do it again. �[Mayberry] Oh, you’re restarting. [Barbara] Yeah. [Mayberry] Another essence thing occurs to me and that is, I guess, if I look back at what really typified James for me, as a family member, it was that when we discussed things in our council – let’s say grading policy or some action to be taken or some decision to be made. People sat around and related the things they were studying and they were teaching to the issues under question. You could also call that, I guess, the matter of relevancy on the faculty level as well as on the student level. That was a real example, it seems to me, on the part of faculty to students that what we study is directly related to the questions of our life and without that example and with the more or less general refusal, usually, of people to let that happen and university discussions, I don't know where the students can get that connection. It was a lived connection, very exciting. [Barbara] Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_25_Mayberry Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mayberry, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Robert Mayberry interview (2 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert Mayberry by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Robert Mayberry was one of the founding faculty of William James College and an integral part of the creation of the School of Communications. In this interview, Robert discusses the grading system and how it related to William James College, in addition to the generational shifts among the study body and the overall essence of WJC. This interview is part 2 of 2 for Robert Mayberry. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8119b1417591fa316fa0637667bf4143.mp4 e1f4de5e9a8d825bbb9e5e889d1484a6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4defcf1b10002d206173be6b60d64e06.pdf fbb5ba96746dc5513dd8875fc488cc80 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Interviewee’s Names: Jack & Norma Mc Caulley Name of War: World War II Length: (00:32:49) (00:20) Background Information      Jack was born in Woodland, Michigan in 1927 He went to school all over Michigan because his family traveled a lot Norma was born on August 28, 1925 in New Auburn, Wisconsin She went to a one room school house that taught 8 grades altogether Jack quit school in 1944 and enlisted in the Navy when he was 16 years old (6:25) Training  Jack was told by the Navy that “if you can shoot a gun, we will take you”  He was not old enough to enlist and his mother had to sign a release form for him  Jack was sent to boot camp at Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago, Illinois and he quickly found that he did not like training  There was much physical training, hiking, and marching  They had pretty good food and he avoided KP by pretending that he had pink eye  Jack was sent to Camp Barry in Virginia for 2 weeks and then sent to San Francisco  He was preparing to ship out when he came down with scarlet fever  Jack was in the hospital recovering for about a month and his unit shipped out without him  He was transferred to the 59th Seabees and later shipped out from California (10:25) Pacific  They stopped in Hawaii, the Marshall Islands, Guam, and Saipan  They helped build an Air Force base for B-29s in Guam  Jack spent the last months of his service in the Marianas Islands where there was still quite a bit of fighting going on  His job was to drive a large truck for the Seabees, delivering supplies across the islands  There were snipers hiding in trees all over the island (15:10) After Service  Jack met his wife at a roller rink in Battle Creek, Michigan and they have been married for over 56 years  Her family had recently moved to Michigan from Wisconsin  Norma had moved to Washington with her sisters during the war and they sang gospel songs on the radio �    Jack later got a job working for Post Cereal and he worked there for 36 years They traveled a lot through their marriage and visited all 50 states It’s hard for them to travel now because they are older and gas is so expensive Jack has been part of the Masons in Battle Creek for over 50 years � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McCaulleyJ Title A name given to the resource Mc Caulley, Jack (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mc Caulley, Jack Description An account of the resource Jack Mc Caulley was born in Woodland, Michigan in 1927 and enlisted in the Navy in 1944 when he was only 16 years old. Jack went through boot camp at Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago, Illinois and then shipped out with the 59th Seabees. Jack worked as a truck driver delivering supplies on Pacific islands such as the Marshall Islands, Guam, and Saipan. Jack and Norma met after the war in a roller rink and have since been married for more than 56 years. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-07-16 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/432ca2d75dbc736b6ff7e248f2d3de92.mp4 9286bc9d779ae92d53e749546bfba3ff https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f0e5ff241d5b124cf1096081703e208.pdf 4217695816ea54bf891a2a72adba873d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Interviewee’s Name: Jerry McFarland Name of War: Vietnam War Length of Interview: (00:40:57) (00:30) Background Information      Jerry was born march 24, 1933 and enlisted in the Navy in 1950 He had envied his brothers who were in the service and had always wanted to join himself Many people were enlisting at the time and Jerry just felt that it was the right thing for him to do after high school He worked in an engineer outfit on transportation, building bridges, and repairing roads Jerry started as a private, then became private first-class, and corporal (5:35) Training  Jerry was sent to Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago, Illinois  He was very nervous when he first arrived and worried about making the drill sergeants angry  They were all very tired all the time and only got about 4 hours of sleep each night  They were not allowed to walk and had to run everywhere  The food was ok and they were well supplied (15:25) Discharged  Jerry had been stationed in Norfolk, Virginia and going back and forth to Puerto Rico, taking Marines to train down there on an LST for the Korean War  They also trained with the Marines but continued going back and forth, doing the same for about 4 years  Jerry was then discharged and moved back to Michigan, but got very bored with civilian life (16:45) Germany  Jerry enlisted in the Army and was training in Missouri in 1954  He was then transferred to San Antonio, Texas and got married  Two months after he was married Jerry was shipped to a staging area in New York  They then boarded a ship towards Germany and the trip lasted 7 days  Jerry began working in transportation at the 7th Army Headquarters  He drove staff cars for generals and the HQ area was very strict  Jerry was in Germany for 3 years and then transferred back to the US �(18:40) Traveling  Jerry worked in Colorado Springs for 2 years where he lived with his family off base  He was transferred to Korea where he worked for 13 months and transferred again to the US for another 2 years  Jerry worked in France for a short time and did not like the area or the people  He volunteered to go to Vietnam so that he could get out of France  Jerry spent 1 year in Vietnam and then worked in Fort Hood for 2 years  He was sent to Vietnam again for another year and then finally discharged after 20 years (24:10) Vietnam  Jerry was in an engineer outfit in Vietnam, camping on an old river plantation  He was a replacement with a unit that had already been working there for 3 months  Jerry was given a tent and in charge of supplies  They moved around a lot while in Vietnam and there were many abandoned rubber tree plantations that could no longer produce rubber  Jerry was always working from about 5 am to 8 pm because he always had to be ready if someone needed supplies (29:15) End of Service  Jerry could no longer sleep at night because he was so anxious about his retirement  He was retiring with 15 other men and it was all very exciting  Jerry moved back to Michigan and began working for a mill for about 10 years  He then began working for Dean Foods, which had bought out the old mill that he had been working at  Jerry kept in touch with many of his old friends for a while, but it was difficult because many of them had moved to Florida or California  Looking back now Jerry feels that the US is always at war and it’s never ending � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McFarlandJ Title A name given to the resource Mc Farland, Jerry (Interview outline and video), 2005 Description An account of the resource Jerry McFarland was born on March 24, 1933 and enlisted in the Navy in 1950 after graduating from high school. Jerry trained at Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago, Illinois and was then stationed in Norfolk, Virginia. He worked there for about 4 years transporting Marines to Puerto Rico to train for the Korean War. Jerry was discharged after 4 years, but found himself bored with civilian life and then enlisted in the Army. While in the Army Jerry worked in Texas, Germany, France, Colorado Springs, and Vietnam, where he served with an engineer unit. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mc Farland, Jerry Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ray, Emily (Interviewer) Gibbons, Brittany (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-05-23 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b6c94223593ef444dd1fbb5c600040f.pdf 86b056b10ddabb5a21be8d09deca3497 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christina McAllister Interviewers: Philip Matro, Douglas Brunner and Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/7/2011 Biography and Description Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Transcript VANBIESBROUCK: My name is Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck and we are here today on November 7, 2011 and I am Interviewing Dennis Jones and Christina McAllister about their experience of diversity in West Michigan. Okay, Christina if you would give me some basic information about yourself like where you grew up, your siblings, what’s your family like. MCALLISTER: Okay, I grew up in Lowell, Michigan. It was kind of a farm town. I have six sisters. Both of my parents came from...were married previously, had children, and then had me and my younger sister. So lots of kids, all girls. I was raised in a Christian home, so church and religion and all that was part of my upbringing. My parents were very conservative. VANBIESBROUCK: And what ethnicity are you? MCALLISTER: I am white. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, and when is your birthday? MCALLISTER: May 29, 1989 and what else do you want to know? VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good for now. Okay, Dennis, where did you grow up, what’s your family like? JONES: I grew up in Waukegan, Illinois. It’s pretty much 45 minutes dead north of Chicago. I actually was closer to the Wisconsin border. But I grew up. I am the youngest of four siblings and my older sister, that is my half sister. My mom, she was in a previous relationship, marriage, and that’s where my oldest sister came from and then me and my brother and my other sister are all from my mom and my dad. Waukegan is kind of an interesting place. I lived on the border of two cities, Waukegan and Beach Park. Beach Park is more of a richer area and Waukegan is like, I guess, the poorer side of the city and so I got to see a lot of both areas, but I also grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor from the time I Page 1 �could remember, so he’s been doing that. And my mom grew up in a Christian home. Her dad was a pastor. My dad didn’t grow up in a Christian home. He was kind of in and out of church and kind of doing his own thing and then he was in the Army for awhile and then he got hurt and that is when he came to know Christ. So he hasn’t always been a Christ-follower, but all my life I have known him as one. So I ended up, I mean, I am black if you wanted to know that. VANBIESBROUCK: Thank you. JONES: No problem. So it’s been kind of funny. I have grown up around all different types of ethnicity with being on the border of two cities with Waukegan and Beach Park. And then also being in the public school system for awhile there from kindergarten til sixth grade and then I started going to a public school from sixth grade on and then I was predominantly around Caucasians. And so it’s never been anything new. Huh? MCALLISTER: You went to a private school. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Oh, you said public. JONES: Yeah, public from kindergarten to fifth grade. MCALLISTER: And then private after that. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Okay. JONES: I love you, too. This is my part of the interview. So, yeah, for the most part I have always been around all different types of races so I have never been the type to kind of shy away from any type of race or just somebody else because of skin color. And I grew up, I have mixed cousins. I had a white cousin there for awhile before they got divorced, if that makes sense. Cousin-in-law. So, yeah that’s kind of a little bit of my story. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, what about you Christina? Have you always been around Caucasians cause you’ve been in West Michigan? MCALLISTER: Primarily, yes. I went to a Christian high school that was close to Muskegon, which is a lot of black people. And so we had a few black students there. I was not really good friends with any of them. They weren’t the coolest people to hang out with. But my parents always raised me to never look at color when you’re meeting someone, that you get to know their personality and who they are and it’s their morals and qualities and characteristics that count. So even though I was not exposed to a lot of different races, that was something very important to my parents because it was. VANBIESBROUCK: So growing up, did you guys, like, what did you want your boyfriend or your girlfriend, like what qualities did you want them to have and did you think about dating someone from a different Page 2 �ethnicity? Was that part of what you considered or did you not even think about that when you were younger? MCALLISTER: Well when I was younger I never thought about that. I never expected to be with a black guy because I didn’t really know any black people and I certainly was not attracted to any of the ones that I did know. So, my ideal man was tall, dark and handsome which I ended up getting in a little different form. Just kidding. So I guess the most important thing to me was someone who was hardworking and who was going to love me, who loves Jesus, and those are pretty much the most important things to me. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis? JONES: For me, I think it’s funny because just the way, ever since I grew up I was kind of the more different one out of my family. “You’re so proper, you’re so this, you’re so that” which I thought was funny. And they always would say, “Yeah, you’re not going to marry a black girl, or you’re never going to be with a black girl.” And I was like, “Yeah I probably won’t.” So I always grew up knowing that I probably wouldn’t date someone within my race or, I guess not knowing, but I always just. I never really always looked at other cultures or other ethnicities before a black person or a black girl if that makes sense. And it’s not like I had anything against them, it was just, I don’t know, being wired that way as a kid and always interested in other cultures and other different looking girls. I remember like in fourth grade, I really liked this Asian girl. That was kind of funny. So that’s never really been an issue for me, like race or anything like that. But, like one of the main things I really grew up wanting out of a girl was a Christian-based faith and grounded foundations in that cause that’s where my family came from, very strong Christians, and just good morals and values about herself and someone that wasn’t, my mom said, “Loose.” I never knew what that meant, but she always said it and I guess I know what it means now that I’m older. So, that’s kind of my story of choosing a woman. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, Christina, could you tell me how you guys met? MCALLISTER: Yes. We met at Cornerstone University, which is where we both went to college. Dennis was a year ahead of me. It was my Freshman year, his Sophomore year. In the winter time, Dennis was coaching...not coaching...he was helping out with intramural volleyball. He was reffing. And we had seen each other around and stuff and I guess I thought he was cute for a black guy but I was not really interested in black guys, so I never really thought about dating him but we ended up kind of hanging out one night after or during the volleyball games and we had a lot of fun, we really connected. We just kind of like, our personalities like immediately, like it was just so easy to hang out with him and have fun with him and stuff. I guess that was the first time I was like, “Oh, I actually kind of like you.” VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. JONES: I guess my version is a little different. I remember the first time I met her. We both played sports at Cornerstone and it was near the training room and she was in there and I was getting my ankles taped for practice and she was... I don’t know what she was doing. And I knew her friend Hellen before I knew her and I saw Hellen and I was like, “Oh Hellen, how you doing?” And then in the hallway I met her and she was like, “Oh yeah this is Christina.” And I was like, “Oh hey Christina, how you doing?” And the next Page 3 �day I saw her and I actually forgot her name and I was like, “Oh hey, you. How are you doing?” And then she was like, “My name’s Christina.” And I was like, “Yeah.” And from there I always thought she was a cute girl and stuff like that but at the time she was kind of dating someone else and I was like, “Yeah, whatever.” So I did not really think anything of it and it was a couple weeks later, a month later or something. I don’t know, it was awhile after that and I was just doing the intramural stuff and I was just hyper that night for some reason and then she ended up being around and she ended up falling to my wrath of someone I started talking to. I talked to a lot of people and she ended up being that person that night. I guess it was a blessing? I’m just kidding, it was a good thing. VANBIESBROUCK: So like once you two started getting serious, were either one of you kind of intimidated or scared or nervous about the fact that one of you is white and one of you is black? Or did it just not even cross your mind? JONES: Well for me it didn’t cross mine initially I thought this thing was never going to work out after we had our first couple dates. We both thought we were just like “Alright this isn’t going to work out.” We were really.., the night we met we really had a lot of fun and stuff like that and then when we went on a couple dates it was just like, “Ooo, so..” and that kind of that awkward funk in the air. But as far as being intimidated or anything like that with like race or color, it never crossed my mind initially at all until I guess when I met her family. But that didn’t really bother me. Instead I always, even in high school, I was always the minority so I was always around people of different color and so for me it was easy to just bond and talk to other people and their families. Especially playing sports through high school, always like around my friends’ families, like with my dad being a pastor, it was hard for my mom and him to get out to games and stuff like that or make the long road trips cause they were always involved with church and stuff like that so I always spent a lot of time with my friends’ families or would go over there before practice and hang out with them and their family. So it was always easy for me to get along with a friend’s family, so to speak cause it was just like, “Oh yeah.” It kind of reminds me of high school, so even watching a lot of my friend’s family, like same thing in college with sports and stuff, my family never got the chance to come out a lot, especially being away from home and playing sports. It was always easier to connect with other families cause that was my family at the time, so me meeting her family and being around her never really intimidated me. VANBIESBROUCK: Same for you? MCALLISTER: No, it was very different for me. Dennis was the first black friend I’d ever had and, really, like a genuine friend and so it was really all I actually thought about really was that probably for the first couple months. And I mean I really like Dennis as a person and it obviously didn’t stop me from dating him but it was something I was very like unsure about. I don’t know, I was just curious, because, something I really hadn’t hardly been exposed to at all. So, I stuck with Dennis for the first couple dates cause I wanted to kiss a black guy. JONES: That is exactly what she told me. MCALLISTER: It’s really true. I’ve come this far, I might as well, get to the date where we kiss and... JONES: She told me that after we had been together for awhile. It must have been a good kiss. Page 4 �MCALLISTER: I had a lot of encouragement from my friends and people who knew Dennis that, “Oh, it’s a good thing and it doesn’t matter about color, and all those things will work out.” So all the concerns I guess that I had initially I had a chance to work through and process on my own. And then on my own and kind of with my friends and people who knew Dennis. So by thetime a couple months in when I was really...it was starting to get serious, I knew that I wanted to do it and was committed and that color and stuff doesn’t really matter and those things that could be problems or something in the future, even if they ended up being a problem, I was willing to, I guess, sacrifice or work through it or whatever. . JONES: For me it was just like “Hey, let’s do this thing.” I didn’t like.., nothing crossed my mind about like how people perceived me or if we got looks or anything like that cause it was just normal to be for some reason. Just cause of the way I grew up, the people I was around, the school I went to when I was in high school, being a private school, being primarily around white people and a few other races. But, I mean for me, I guess it was normalized for me at a young age so it just never really bothered me. VANBIESBROUCK: So what was your family’s response to each other or to you? Or their attitude? JONES: My family didn’t care. They were like, “Oh, nice. Bring her around.” “Alright, if I can. Kind of busy.” I don’t know. It didn’t... my family, it wasn’t an issue, it wasn’t a big issue at all. VANBIESBROUCK: Was that partially because you already had people in your family who had already been with white people before? JONES: Yeah, that too. Plus our family background, it’s just always been, “It doesn’t matter,” especially my mom’s side of the family. My dad, a little bit different, because he’s from down south. But with him it was no big deal. It doesn’t matter, so I guess with my immediate family it was like, “Oh, that’s cool. Make sure she’s the right one, make sure you’re looking for all the right things and not just dating her to date her.” They were more worried about the person than the color. VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. Christina? MCALLISTER: My family’s response was a little bit different. Actually it was really surprising to me because of the way my parents had raised me and taught me to be so open-minded to color and to culture and that kind of thing. I waited awhile before I really brought Dennis home. We kind of don’t bring a guy home unless you are serious about him. It is kind of the family rule. So I brought him home and told some of my family I was serious about him. My mom especially definitely had some concerns about us and our relationship. And that was probably the biggest hurdle as far as this stuff goes, with the whole black-white thing that we had to get through. she...this was before she really got to know Dennis, just kind of going off the whole color thing, basically. VANBIESBROUCK: So like a stereotype? MCALLISTER: Yeah, the biggest thing that tripped her up. JONES: Always fighting the stereotype. I’ll tell ya. Page 5 �MCALLISTER: Well it wasn’t really...it wasn’t really concerns like, “I don’t like a black guy.” It was mostly the cultural differences and marriage is tough already and relationships are tough. And you are going to have to think about your kids and what they are going to have to go through. And you have to think about how it is going to put a lot more pressure on your relationship with something that is already tough. And different...just adjustments between coming together and being married and we had only been dating for a few months, so it was like we were jumping to marriage. But that is what we think about long-term. Anyways, so... but she was just if we are coming from two different cultures to try to bring that together and form a family that has a lot more stresses added to just coming t gether and being a family. So those were their concerns initially. And that was really hard because at that time I was preset on dating Dennis and I really loved him and I wanted that to happen. And my mother’s a very stubborn woman, so my dad being the practical one, they both talked to me and said, “Well these are our concerns about it.” And I told them, “I understand that. I think that things are changing. I don’t think things are going to be as tough as you think it’s going to be. Dennis’s background is probably not as different as you think it is.” So just kind of like I guess setting at ease some of their concerns. And then I continued to date Dennis and do that relationship and that was...my mom has the My Way or the Highway policy, so that didn’t really go over well for her, at first. She really thought the longer we were together, the more it was kind of eating at her that this was a bad thing and she was so concerned about all these things. So that was really tough for us because it got to this point where she was just like, “well we don’t approve of this relationship,” and blah blah blah. So we had to get through that. And my response was, “just get to know Dennis because I think you might change your mind.” And that is how my dad responded, of course, because he is the practical one and the other side of it was Dennis. I think it was hard for you to kind of go through that, but Dennis’s attitude was just that he was gonna just show him who he was and try to win them over, I guess. And he did that. And now, my family absolutely loves Dennis and can’t imagine him not being a part of the family. VANBIESBROUCK: So, Dennis, how did you respond or did Christina tell you what her parents were kind of feeling or did you kind of assume? JONES: At first, I didn’t assume at all but then she told me. I was guess I was taken back by it because I had never been in a situation like this. And for me it was like there was not much we could do. It is what it is. And I think I remember telling her... she was...l remember one night she came to me and she was crying, talking about how she was really upset with her mom and I said, “well, it’s okay. I will just prove them wrong.” I think those were pretty much my words. And I said, “it doesn’t matter.” And I said “from what I can see, your family’s great, but it was probably something they never had to deal with before.” And I was like, my family this is not an issue at all. I reassured her that it’s... we don’t really care about color. And my mission was to kill them with kindness and love and be myself. Like me her dad, we got along really well initially and I think him, the way he acted around me and that way he accepted me was kind of the biggest one, always the boyfriend4ather acceptance thing. And that was huge for me. And then for her mom, it was just like it is gonna be a tough one but we can do it. So that one was just a lot of work and I remember... now thinking back to it, I can see that there was times when she was a little more kind of cautious and stuff like that. But now, it doesn’t even matter. MCALLISTER: Now he’s the family favorite. Page 6 �JONES: I am the family favorite which is pretty sweet. Usually they go through a ranking like, “oh, Pat, Dan, Dennis.” And I mean, it’s usually, I’m at the top, so I take the cake. MCALLISTER: The boys have a ranking system. JONES: Yeah, usually as a family. Usually your youngest sister, her boyfriend always comes in last, but we won’t talk about that. But usually I finish at the top. The only reason I am in second right now is because the oldest daughter had kids. MCALLISTER: Can’t compete with the grandkids. JONES: I can’t compete with the grandkids. But I am a damn close second. We usually talk about it sometimes too, me and Pat. MCALLISTER: That is ridiculous. JONES: Pats really fighting hard for the first place but I can’t do anything about the grandkids. Just give it a while til we have our kids, we’ll be in first. VANBIESBROUCK: So for a while it was kinda like they just didn’t know you so they were hesitant, but once they got to know you. JONES: Yeah I think that was the big thing. MCALLISTER: Yes. My dad grew up in West Michigan where there wasn’t a lot of diversity back in the day. And my mom grew up in California where there was a lot of diversity but moved to Michigan when she was probably late twenties early thirties so this a long time ago and things were really different then. So the diversity she got exposed to was kind of more, I mean times were different back then a lot more people were racists and had those kind of thoughts and didn’t accept people and were segregated. So I think that their background and not being exposed to that was the biggest thing that freaked them out. It wasn’t even necessarily because of the way they raised us they were definitely always you shouldn’t think about people’s color it was definitely something that they were always adament about but I think it was when it actually like happened and came to be that they were like whoah, now what. So it just took a while but I think once they kind of got used to the idea and yeah get to know dennis so. VANBIESBROUCK: Were your friends kind of the same way? MCALLISTER: I think our friends were.. VANBIESBROUCK: Well I mean most of our friends knew Dennis before from school. MCALLISTER: Yeah most of my friends did know Dennis before JONES: I think I knew most of your friends before I knew you. Page 7 �MCALLISTER: Yeah. I mean everyone was really accepting, as far as friends. I don’t feel like anyone like in our age group has ever been weird about it or concerned or anything it’s always like “oh yeah we love you guys!”. So that was good, lots of support that way which is good. VANBIESBROUCK: And your grandparents were the same way? JONES: Well my grandma was the biggest one, she didn’t care who she was. My grandma was like as long as she knows Christ, your fine with her. If you didn’t get out of there so my grandma never really, she was the biggest one, she never saw color ever since I have known her she never cared. Her biggest thing was, like I was saying we have a huge Christian background, it was Christ your good in her book or even if you didn’t it’s not like she hated you but she definitely let know Jesus was the way type of deal. She would sit out on her porch and talk to any and everybody that came by, like all the kids in the neighborhood loved her, she was that type of lady. So color was never an issue she I mean she worked for a white lady for a while if I’m not mistaken, like cleaning her house and stuff like that. So it was not like slave labor or anything like that it was definitely like they were good friends and she just helped her out like that. One of her best friends I can remember was a white lady. VANBIESBROUCK: So like your parents and grandparents are they like the main reason why your so open to different ethnicities or is that just how you are as a person? JONES: I think it’s a little bit of both. I mean, my family has always told me I was different when I was younger ha and they still tell me I’m different like they don’t understand me. Just because I’m a lot of off the wall stuff but just personality stuff they don’t understand, like if you put me in the middle of a forest with a bunch of Indians and ask I could probably start talking to them about a bunch of stuff haha that’s just the way I am. So they don’t understand where I got that from because my dad is a fairly quiet man and my morn is I don’t know she is kind of shy when she meets new people and stuff like that but for me its just like whatever. I don’t know it’s a combination of the way I was raised and developing into a new person. MCALLISTER: My dad’s grandma is really quiet, she doesn’t say much but she has always liked you. JONES: Yeah she has always been nice to me, she never really said anything. I don’t know I’ve always been, unless she hates me and I don’t know about it. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she is really quiet, she doesn’t really say a lot but she has always been nice to Dennis. JONES: She gives me hugs. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she likes Dennis. You’ve never met my grandpa. JONES: No I’ve never met your mom’s dad. MCALLISTER: He married a very southern woman, remarried. My grandma died and then he remarried this lady and I know she doesn’t approve of our relationship. She has never met Dennis and neither has he but she likes to speak her southern piece about it. She’s kind of crazy. But um we had a family Page 8 �reunion this last summer and Dennis met my great uncles and aunts, so my grandpa’s brothers and sisters, were all there and then my uncles and aunts. Everybody like loved Dennis so, even my great uncles and aunts, we talked about it like they are from anothergeneration they are all in their gosh sixties seventies, no they have to be older than that now. JONES: yeah seventies. MCALLISTER: At least seventies some of them are in their eighties I think. So totally different generation and we talked about it like it might be a little weird. JONES: And my response was yeah I don’t care haha. MCALLISTER: Yeah. but they loved him, he was there for the first like day or two and then first two days and then he left because he had his own family reunion and the next day when Dennis was gone they were all like Dennis is so great we really like him blah blah blah. My great aunt invited the two of us up to her house in Canada so ha were gonna go up there sometime. But yeah, I was actually really surprised with how accepting they were. Not that I would expect them to be different but just that generations are different and sometimes you never know, people have these strange opinions. VANBIESBROUCK: So like when you two were talking to your parents about each other what was the first thing you told them like Christina did you tell your parents like the first thing you told them was it Dennis is black or was that like the last thing? MCALLISTER: No I actually didn’t really say that at all. I kind of thought that they would just be like that they wouldn’t care at all. And that’s probably me being a little bit naive because of the fact that I never had any black friends and here I am bringing home this black guy, yeah I really like I want to date him haha. They of course are probably going to be like wait at minute. so no obviously I don’t even think I told them that at all and then when I brought him home, they were like oh he’s black ha ha. JONES: Yeah my family just assumed she was a different race. MCALLISTER: Hahaha JONES: They were just like, they knew like ah she’s white huh, and I was like yeah type of deal. But it wasn’t a big thing it was kind of like family joking and fun but it wasn’t a big thing. They were happy, they were pretty happy. They have never said anything about race or anything like that. But yeah, they literally just assumed. “Hey morn I’m dating somebody”, “Oh alright she’s white huh”, “Yup” haha. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it frustrating for either one of you, or Dennis for your family that Christina’s family kind of had reservations about it? JONES: umm VANBIESBROUCK: Or about you two? Page 9 �JONES: I actually, it was kind of one of those things I decided to keep to myself. I didn’t want my family to pre-judge her family. Unless they asked I said something, my morn asked and I think that was one of my biggest, or my mom’s biggest concerns, was them being accepting of me. And she was kind of like, well my mom is kind of one of those conspiracy theorists I like to think. My dad was just like alright make the right choices, see you later. My mom she will talk to me for 15 hours about the same thing. I think her biggest thing was well how those things can go. Something happens with you and her and they will blame it on you and try and go after you and I’m like mom it’s not like that at all haha, oh my gosh she formulates all of these crazy things, its kind of funny but ridiculous at the same time. And that was just her biggest concern, if anything big ever happened like what would they do, would they kind of hold a grudge against me not only because I did something to their daughter their baby but it was a black man that did it. So that was my mom’s biggest concern and I was like ahh it’s not that big of deal. I’m not stupid I’m not gonna do anything crazy. If anyone breaks up she will be the one who breaks up with me. I don’t know why I thought that haha but that’s just the way I thought of it. VANBIESBROUCK: So like in the beginning of your relationship would you guys say you, was like harder because her family was kind of hesitant or was it just one of those things where its something they thought it might be hard whereas a Christian family might think it’s hard to dat a Catholic but you get over it. Was it the same thing? JONES: In a way. I think it was mainly for me, her parents. I wanted to make sure her parents were ok with me and winning her parents over. Her sisters were, they just didn’t care. They were like oh yeah he’s great type of deal, and so for me it was just her parents. I just wanted acceptance of the parents. MCALLISTER: I mean it was hard for a while. But they did get over it and pretty quickly. And my family really does love Dennis now. VANBIESBROUCK: So is it weird going to a white household for a while, have you learned any new traditions or like weird things that your family doesn’t do? JONES: Haha yeah there are a few, I can’t name them, but there was one thing I don’t know. Like just, I guess Thanksgiving we call it “soul food” haha. We call it dressing, what you guys call stuffing. And I remember my mom, like parents told me “your like a chameleon you can take on the attitude and shape of anybody your around. If your around Mexicans you will somehow try and speak Spanish. Or if your around white people how to talk like a white person and be like a white person. If you’re around black people, you may not know how to talk like a black person but how to sound like, bionics, be around them and how to hold a conversation”. VANBIESBROUCK: Like fit in. JONES: Yeah. And then so I don’t know I went home and like unconsciously I was like yeah I’ll get some stuffing and my mom goes “what did you just say”, I was like “ah I meant dressing sorry”. Haha like I know it’s a taboo but just simple things like that with food and stuff. I don’t think like cultural things. I think this is funny, like, face towels-we use face towels all the time at home to wash up and take showers and stuff like that and every time I’m like you don’t use face towel? No I don’t need a face towel why would I need a face towel to wash up, a face towel is for your face. That’s kind of one Page 10 �different thing, and they are like you picked that up off those white people. I’m like no I didn’t I’ve always been that way! Anyway. I think that for me is just kind of the funny things. VANBIESBROUCK: Any for you? MCALLISTER: Yeah. The first time I went to Dennis’s house it was really crazy. I couldn’t understand what anyone was saying like the whole time I was there. Well his dad has a really deep, southern accent so he is like impossible to understand, well he was at first. JONES: I’m like the only one that can understand my dad. Most people, like my brothers and sisters, after he comes back from being down south they can’t even understand him. But for me it’s like oh yeah I’ll go get that for you and they are like what did he say? So I knew my dad would be a tough person for her to understand in the first place anyway. MCALLISTER: Yeah but , it was definitely like a lot more of a culture shock than what I thought it was going to be because like spending time with Dennis I knew his habits and things like that about him but he is like a white black man and I didn’t really realize his family is not that way haha. VANBIESBROUCK: How long had you been dating Dennis before you met his family? MCALLISTER: Four months. So, gosh I can’t remember. Yeah it was hard to understand them, they always liked to talk about past experiences and like family stuff. They have all these like family stories and secrets, not like secrets but jokes or whatever. And so I like didn’t say very much at all the first time I was there and um, and then we went to let’s see, we went to their church and that was really crazy haha. Um I had never been to a black church before and it was very interesting. It was really loud, everyone was singing and dancing. Lots of amen’s and thank you Jesus, lots of that kind of thing. I had never seen his dad talk like that before. JONES: Yeah my dad is super quiet at home, doesn’t say much, but when he talks its like very profound and so wisdom filled and your like man! And then when he gets in front of the pulpit he will talk for hours and hours upon end and your like shut up I want to go home and watch the bears game. Sometimes by brother and I will sit in the back and kind of give him the cut throat like you need to stop. MCALLISTER: Ha well it’s not just talking he like goes on rants. JONES: Yeah he takes a lot of rabbit trails when he’s preaching so she was like I didn’t understand a word or I didn’t understand the message at all. MCALLISTER: Yeah it was very different. I was used to like teaching out of scripture he was just going on. VANBIESBROUCK: Or like an outline to follow? MCALLISTER: Yeah, which I later learned that’s what they do in their bible study. They do that before but the service we went to, I don’t know, was like a praise and worship service. That’s what it seemed like to me. Page 11 �JONES: A lot of church in my family growing up, they have so many different services I can’t even remember them all its crazy. MCALLISTER: So that was probably the craziest thing that I experienced first. JONES: That was my biggest fear, was taking her to church with my family. I still am like I don’t want you going to church with my family) don’t want you to like run away haha. Seriously. MCALLISTER: (didn’t’ run away, I was clapping and singing and I got really into it! JONES: I still am afraid to take her home, to church and we’ve been dating three and a half four years. VANBIESBROUCK: So that’s not the type of church that you would want to go to as a couple? Or Dennis you just like white people’s church better? JONES: For me, it doesn’t bother me I just want her to be comfortable because I’ve seen everything being in a black church. So I think for her (just want to see her comfortable and I can pretty much fit in with any scene. I like the church that we go to now. MCALLISTER: We go to my family’s church now. JONES: That was funny, I was terrified to bring her home. I was like man I don’t know what my family’s going to do, they are going to embarrass me. (think that was my biggest thing rather than race I was like I hope they don’t say anything stupid. VANBIESBROUCK: Did they make jokes about Christina being pale or anything? JONES: My mom made a couple of jokes. MCALLISTER: Yeah actually the first time I was there they did. It was funny. JONES: My family is very like joking, like we make fun of each other all the time. I think that’s typical with a lot of black families. That’s kind of how we express our love. We just make fun of each other haha. Like me and my brother, we never really tell each other I love you but it’s kind of one of those things . Me and him always grew up making fun of each other, my sister too. Like I’ll call her and be like “hey what’s up ugly how you doing”, she’s like “oh hey stupid” its just like oh ok like understood that we love each other. Even bringing in the way I grew up, that was kind of one of the tougher things because my family doesn’t really express a lot of love and we’re not like super touchy feely. And that was actually kind of the way I was raised and seeing my dad express his love for my mom and that was tough because that’s what I grew up around and thought it was normal, apparently it’s not. I mean not that it’s not normal but a different way of, like I would show her my love through just acts and stuff like that. MCALLISTER: Slapping me on the shoulder ha. JONES: Yeah and uh for her it was like “why don’t you tell me you love me, why don’t you do this for me, or take care of that for me”? And I’m like what I thought I was showing you I loved you. So I think it was, Page 12 �just being around that too growing up, was kind of one of our tougher hurdles. Learning the love language. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it, I mean is Christina like anybody else you’ve dated before? JONES: No actually. I don’t think I ever really haha. MCALLISTER: Normally he is really into chubby blonde girls haha. JONES: That’s not true at all! Couple blunders in my dating career but I got a couple lookers in there. I’ve had some good-looking girls, maybe not dated them but hahah but it’s not a big deal. You haven’t had quite the greatest dating career in your path either have you. MCALLISTER: I’ve had lots of great guys. JONES: A lot of questionable decisions there huh. No but I forgot the question haha. VANBIESBROUCK: Ha, if she is like anyone you’ve dated. JONES: Ah no she’s not. Totally different from any other girl I’ve dated. VANBIESBROUCK: Personality-wise? JONES: Yup, personality-wise, yeah real different. And I think that’s what drew me to her. I was like oh she might be a keeper. And then haha, also the also her faith and everything. That was something that really kind of got me. My mom was like “if you find a girl that believes in God and trusts in God that’s really rare in this world now a days and she’s like if you find a girl that, you need to keep her”. And I remember those words. And I remember one time I was home for a holiday and my uncle who, which I thought was kind of funny, was kind of a ladies man and like kind of a player/dog. And he was just a dog, dirty dog, but I love him. He was like “well son I’ll tell you one thing, if you find a girl that can make you change then that’s a girl you need to keep” and I remember those were two big things that made me really search in her to make to be like is this someone I want to keep in my life and marry. And I still can say I hold true to those words and she has definitely lived up to those. MCALLISTER: Aww JONES: Oh geez now I’m getting mushy haha. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis is nothing like a guy you’ve dated before? MCALLISTER: no not really. He is a lot different I guess, there are certain traits that are similar to certain guys but I guess overall in general he is pretty unique. obviously I’ve never dated a black guy before so that was new haha. I guess the things that I liked about hirn was that he was always really friendly, outgoing, really easygoing, really easy to get along with. Probably, the guys I dated before were a lot rnore emotional and like crabby. JONES: She liked pretty boys and skinny Jean type guys Page 13 �MCALLISTER: No I didn’t JONES: Yes you did. You liked the emo kids. MCALLISTER: That’s not ever true. I never even dated an erno guy. I dated a country bumpkin, and an athlete. That’s pretty much it. JONES: doesn’t count as an athlete. Hahahaha. MCALLISTER: He doesn’t count as an athlete. He doesn’t count as anything. I didn’t even put his narne on this recording. JONES: She can ‘X” it out. Hahahaha MCALLISTER: anyways, yeah I forgot the question. VANBIESBROUCK: So I guess like, you guys’ personalities kind of trump the fact that, that you are different ethnically? JONES: Yup MCALLISTER: Yup definitely. JONES: for me yup. MCALLISTER: yeah. JONES: I would have to say, that is definitely the biggest part for me that was the biggest one. MCALLISTER: Our families met this summer. JONES: Yeah thats wierd that our families actually met for the first time after, well being so far away and, being 4hrs. away is always tough to try and coordinate something, yeah. MCALLISTER: Both busy. JONES: Yeah are families met for the first time this summer it was, I though it went pretty well. MCALLISTER: Yeah it went great. My ah, JONES: My mom was kind of quiet, kind of I thought. My Brother does, he always talks. He did a lot of talking. I kind of wanted him to shut up, but thats fine. You’ve met my brother before. Like before you met my whole family, you met my brother. Cuz he was running track and we went to one of his track meets in Grand Rapids. It was me, you, ted and Hilary. It was, never mind I won’t put that on tape. I was going to say it was the first time I farted in front of you. Hahahahaha. MCALLISTER: oh yeah, umm. JONES: It prolly caught it. Hahahaha Page 14 �VANBIESBROUCK: Probably. MCALLISTER: No it went, it went really good. I think we both were a little bit nervous for. I mean my side of the family with our history and then. Even, even with Dennis’ family, like his mom is pretty quiet and can be kind of, I don’t know, introverted I guess. VANBIESBROUCK: Like she knew how your family felt about it? MCALLISTER: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that that was really a concern at that point. JONES: I don’t know, My mom is kind of, I, I don’t know. MCALLISTER: maybe. JONES: It could have been. I don’t know. I can say that my mom kind of does have a tendency not to forget things. That could have been it. But my dad he’s just naturally quiet so he wasn’t going to talk anyway, unless. MCALLISTER: He, he was talking. JONES: but yeah, yeah he was talking. I think he is more worried about if, His biggest thing is if people can understand him. He, He’s got a little bit of a slur. When he grew up, he had a slight speech impediment, and his brothers kind of had to translate for him alot. So he, he is very conscious of the way he talks and stuff like that. So my dad is a little more quiet unless he is over the pulpit which it should be reversed. Um and then my mom she is usually very outgoing. But she is very shy when she meets new people or is in a new setting and she is. First of all she is deathly terrified because she thought we were going to go out on a boat and she hates the water. And she was terrified that they had dogs, and she hates dogs. And I’m like you are ridiculous. Like my dad he doesn’t care about dogs, but my mom is “Oh my gosh they got dogs can you ask them to put them away”. I was like mom, you’re going to visit over to someone’s house are you going, Luckly, I know them well enough to where they would do this for us and I was like I’ll ask ‘em. And so for me I was like you have all these reservations and questions, ugh. I think they briefly met at my graduation, but it wasn’t like for an extended period of time. Everybody was kind of out in their own worlds. So. But. VANBIESBROUCK: Didn’t your mom say something that was.. MCALLISTER: oh yeah (Laughter) First of all, what did she get, yeah she got orange pop, I told her, she was asking what, well do they like to eat? What do they like to do? And I told them like, Dennis’ mom don’t do a lot of water sports, she’s afraid of the water. She doesn’t like dogs also, so we put the dogs away and all that stuff. And then she’s like what do they like to eat? Well, they eat a lot and they like just about anything but, I was saying a few things that I knew that they liked that we had before, and I was like they like grape drink. I know it’s a stereotype but they really do like it. So she went out and bought orange pop, she didn’t even buy the right thing. And then at dinner she was giving drinks to everybody she’s like “Christina told me that you guys like orange pop”. And I was so embarrassed... JONES: She said “you guys”. I was like aahh. Page 15 �MCALLISTER: I mean, no one was offended but it was funny. JONES: She is very hospitable and nice. And her mom just has a tendency just to say things, and that was just one of those things. That was pretty funny. I was just like “ooohh..’ (laughter) MCALLISTER: My niece and nephew loved Dennis’ mom. They were snuggled up to her for most of the night. JONES: Yeah, Cameron, he was just sleeping. Maddie had a ton and ton of stories for my mom. My mom didn’t understand a word she was saying probably. But... and then she was like “ooh this is the little baby you always talk about.” And I was like yeah, she’s adorable. My mom used to run a daycare so she really loves kids. VANBIESBROUCK: So after they met, did either one of your parents tell you “Oh, I was expecting it to go this way, but it was really great, or...” JONES: To tell you the truth I haven’t really talked to my parents. Or, I’ve talked to them since then, just haven’t asked my parents what they thought. My brother and my sister were like “Oh it was really great I loved it, it was really good to sit down and talk to them and get to know them a little better.” So my brother and my sister were excited and happy about it. I guess I should probably talk to my parents. I think it went good, in my opinion. I don’t know, maybe I’m overlooking stuff. But I thought it was good. Sounds like a business meeting. (laughter) MCALLISTER: Um, no, my parents were good. I think my mom was nervous about... She was nervous about having people over anyways... And I think she was nervous aboutJONES: “My house is a mess, oh my gosh!” MCALLISTER: -Yeah, I mean, impressing them, well not impressing them, but making them feel comfortable and welcome. like a hostess I guess. She’s like that with everybody. But I think because it was Dennis’ family she felt a little more pressure. So, I don’t know. I think it went really well though. My mom said “Oh Dennis’ family is so nice and it was so nice to spend time with them.” That’s pretty much what everyone in my family said. So she invited them back up for another time. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: -For more orange drink... (Laughter) MCALLISTER: Yeah for more orange drink, and for a ride on the lake. Page 16 �JONES: My dad would go, but my mom would just freak out. She’s like “we’re not going on the boat right?” I was like I told you three weeks ago that we’re not going on the boat. I don’t need to tell you again, If do i might take you on the boat just to scare the crap out of you. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So have you guys noticed that whenever you go out on a date or you go hang out with people have you noticed that people treat you different? Or do the people that you see in restaurants and stuff, they just don’t care? JONES: To me, in my perspective, I don’t know about Christina, but to me the people in west michigan... I don’t know, I guess it depends on the area, where you’re at. But most people it doesn’t seem like they really care. I don’t know we’ve never really received any snide remarks, I guess a couple of whoops from black girls. Like “what is he doing with her?” (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: They’re just jealous. JONES: I don’t know but when we’re out, I guess I never really pay attention to people. This is just who I am, I always keep my head down when i walk and i’ll put my head up when i see someone, kind of make eye contact. But, I don’t know. I always keep my head down or look at her when we’re out and walking and stuff like that. And then I think with society and the way we were raised and our generation, it’s normal. So I don’t think a lot of people care. VANBIESBROUCK: Yeah, so you expect it more from older people. JONES: But yeah now i think that even more older people are starting to say “Ahh, what the heck it’s no big deal.” I mean if I went down south I’d probably get lynched... (Laughter) No I’m just kidding, I’m kidding. That was a joke, totally too far, I know. VANBIESBROUCK: What about you Christina? Have you noticed... MCALLISTER: No, I don’t notice those things at all anyways. But , I definitely haven’t noticed anything like that. JONES: I don’t think we’ve ever received like a... VANBIESBROUCK: We’ve had a lot of people like, well, in church, Dennis is the only black guy in our church (laughs). And I was actually kind of nervous about that. Because. Not nervous that it would go badly but nervous that he would feel uncomfortable or awkward. But we had so many people come up to us and like “Hi, so nice to meet you” and whatever. And people who know Dennis now love him. We’re helping out in the youth group now. The leaders are all about him and the kids all love him, I think it’s cool he’s black. JONES: I think it’s funny, the youth retreat we went out on it this weekend. And I think just like being out towards Grand Haven/Spring Lake area there’s not a lot of black people. But all the kids were kinda Page 17 �telling jokes and I tell a black joke and they’re all like (gasp) and I’m like “no it’s okay, you can laugh!” And they’re like “okay!” (laughs) To me honestly I think it’s hilarious when people are really cautious about saying black or african american... I could really care less. I remember like for me, I don’t know why they see it as a challenge and they’re like “Oh yeah, let me go talk to him” (laughter). Like we were just at a wedding and the guy goes “yeah my grandma, she’s kind of racist.” And I go “really? Can I meet her? Like I want to talk to her.” And he’s like “sure but I don’t know...” I was like “I don’t care, I want to talk to her and just see what happens.” Like that’s just really, I guess I kind of see it as a challenge. And (laughs) I don’t know, that’s just kind of my attitude toward everything. Like I mean, to me it’s like I don’t see any reason to put skin color above a person. So, I don’t know. Ever since I’ve been growing up between me and my group of friends we’ve always got racial jokes and stuff like that. Not just about black people and stuff like that but about other races obviously it’s joking amongst friends and stuff like that (laughs). VANBIESBROUCK: So Christina you mentioned how your mom was saying how it would possibly affect your kids. Have you guys talked about that? Or do you think it would even be an issue in the years to come? MCALLISTER: Um, I mean we’ve talked about it, But I don’t think it will be a big issue. I think that the longer we’re together, the less that I see color in Dennis and the more I see just us in our relationship. And those fears just kind of fade away as we’re kind of bringing our lives together and as we’re deciding how we’re going to, as a couple, raise our kids. And i think that’s kind of everyone’s concern is just making sure that we raise them how we wanna raise them and not really worrying about race. Because if we bring them up right then it’s not even going to be an issue. So I guess that’s kind of... We make jokes about, “well what if they marry black kids? Or what if they marry white kids?” (laughs) But , I don’t think it would matter either way for us. JONES: No. I guess to me i kind of see that it is, nowadays, you always see mixed kids. I mean when I was growing up in public school I was always around a ton of mixed kids. you get the looks like “man why are your eyes green and your hair is kinda course like a black person?” (Laughter) Or like, those types of things you wonder. But growing up around it and , seeing it more prevalent, in Hollywood and more now around our age, and once we’re starting to recognize the differences in people... It doesn’t really dawn on me what will my kids think. To me, they’ll fit in just fine. MCALLISTER: People have talked about as mixed kids, do you identify with the black culture or the white culture? I think the cultures are mixing in together a little bit more. And I think our focus is just going to be on raising them in I guess a culoture that we feel is healthy and right and appropriate. And hopefully they won’t identify with... Hopefully they’ll be chameleons like Dennis. That they’ll feel comfortable around anyone and everyone. that they won’t see that. They will just see people. JONES: I think more or less, once you stop focusing on skin color you kind of forget. “Oh yeah I forgot you were black. Or I forgot you were Mexican.” (Laughs) I remember in high school our coach was black but he is married to a white woman and one day we had this huge team sleep over, kind of like a team building thing. And we were going through their house and we were like “Oh yeah,” Like we saw a picture of our coach, our coach was black, and we saw a Page 18 �picture of him and his family and they were all like “Oh, yeah” It was one of those things that dawns on me like it’s one of those things where you really see a person for a person, and not skin color. You really do forget, to me I forget, and I’m like “oh yeah that is right, they really are different than I am.” Skin color-wise. MCALLISTER: I’m a little worried about our kids’ hair. JONES: Yeah she’s always like “You’re gonna have to do their hair, ‘cause I don’t know how to do it.” Like if it’s a boy it’s alright ‘cause I know how to cut hair. I’ll cut his hair right off. MCALLISTER: That’s our biggest concern right now. VANBIESBROUCK: Is hair? (Laughter) JONES: Yeah, I’ll have to teach her the ropes if they come out with coarse hair like black people. I’ll show her how to do it. If they come out with white people hair that’s totally up her alley. MCALLISTER: The poor girls are gonnna be hopeless. JONES: Ah no, my cousins came out with good hair, with white people hair. I don’t know why we say white people or black people hair. fine hair. Non-coarse hair. There ain’t nothing wrong with my hair! (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So do you guys have anything that you would want to say to someone who was against interracial relationships? Or is it kind of like you have to be in one to really understand? JONES: Hmm.. Give it a try. No I’m just kidding. (Laughter) No I guess coming from, I mean I’ve had my times were skin color is an issue and I’ve seen both sides where people accept you and people reject you. And I think my biggest thing is , it may sound kind of cliché, but it was so long ago. like give it up. If all you see is color then you’re just, in my book, just kind of lost. Of course that’s how society is raised, that’s how society sees people, as their skin color. It’s stereotypes. But if you don’t get to know the person then you’re doing yourself a big disservice basically by judging a book by it’s cover. If Christina had never talked to me, she’s never been around black people, she’s probably just like he’s another one of those ghetto people just trying to chase basketball dreams (laughs). But not me! I was ready to give up basketball for crying aloud. But , it’s just one of those things where I think to me, this is how I see it. You’re not doing anything to me, you’re just doing more harm to yourself by harboring that hatred and harboring those feelings. To me, I’m fine. You can look at me all day and say “Oh my gosh blah blah” it’s not doing anything to me. It’s hurting you more than me. MCALLISTER: I don’t know, I guess with me it’s the same kind of thing. I haven’t had to deal with any of that kind of stuff my whole life so I guess it’s not something I’ve been real passionate about. Haven’t had a lot of personal experience, just in this relationship and with our families a little bit. I can say that when my parents were having a hard time with it I told them that they just need to get to know Dennis. I said Page 19 �“to me, this is worth whatever problems we might have because of this. This relationship is worth it. that’s all. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44cabebbd26511771c337b16da8e3465.mp3 c0c1ce94fa97fa75a004fc24da4c4e7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McAllister_Christina Title A name given to the resource Christina McAllister audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McAllister, Christina Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Matro, Philip Brunner, Douglas Vanbiesbrouck Description An account of the resource Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0f9e8dddd753fdedb3eb69de598630f.mp4 3125be7c17987b80ebf570c42c19381b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca0bd31b94ab41f77b41ced49b765f05.pdf b49cca928b170c194789639591d19ccf PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Barry McAlpine Vietnam War Interview Length: (02:00:05:00) Pre-enlistment Life / Training / Germany (00:00:16:00)  McAlpine was born in Cass City, Michigan in 1945, located in the “Thumb” region of the lower peninsula of the state; McAlpine grew up in the “Thumb” region, living on a small farm, the oldest of six children (00:00:16:00)  McAlpine graduated from high school in 1963 (00:00:32:00) o After he graduated from high school, he briefly worked for General Motors before attending Michigan State University (00:00:38:00)  However, his time at Michigan State did not work out too well and in 1965, McAlpine received his draft notice (00:00:57:00) o At the time, drafts notices were sent to everyone and both students and married men had opportunities to use deferments; McAlpine chose not to use his student deferment because he did not fully know what he wanted to do (00:01:11:00)  McAlpine viewed it was having a chance to serve in a war, which in his mind, was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity (00:01:38:00)  McAlpine recalls sitting around the kitchen table talking with his uncle and grandfather about their respective experiences serving in the military and he always wondered if he would ever had a similar opportunity (00:01:51:00)  The conflict in Vietnam was just starting to intensify and McAlpine viewed it as a good time to serve (00:02:01:00)  McAlpine married before deploying to Vietnam and could have received a marriage deferment along with the student deferment (00:02:12:00) o McAlpine is glad that he chose the route of going into the military when he did because the experience was very interesting and fun (00:02:42:00)  After receiving his draft notice, McAlpine first went through an induction center in Detroit, Michigan before traveling to Fort Knox, Kentucky to begin his basic training (00:02:59:00) o Although he does not recall the exact reception he received when he arrived at Fort Knox, McAlpine does remember that it was a far different world than what he had known growing up on a farm (00:03:44:00) o At the time, McAlpine was pretty independent and he did not understand the idea of someone else giving him orders (00:04:02:00)  To that end, McAlpine had some difficult encounters with his drill instructors and they were forced to break him down a little bit; although it took some time, the instructors eventually broke him down and began to “rebuild” him (00:04:22:00)  For example, McAlpine had never seen a two-way loudspeaker system and one night, an instructors came over the loudspeaker in the barracks and told the men something; McAlpine made a �  flippant remark and he remembers the instructors running up the stairs, placing a bucket on McAlpine’s head and beating the “h***” out of the bucket (00:04:47:00)  Following the incident with the bucket, McAlpine had more respect for his superiors (00:05:32:00) o The basic training started out with McAlpine and the other men learning the ways of the Army, such as marching, map-reading, how to fire and clean weapons, proper radio procedures, etc. (00:05:47:00)  On a typical day, the men were training from six in the morning until eight or nine o’clock at night (00:06:14:00) o The men also went through a lot of physical training, namely running and calisthenics (00:06:25:00)  McAlpine was in pretty good shape when he first went into the military, so the physical training helped build his strength and stamina (00:06:37:00)  As well, because he had been shooting guns since he was eleven years old, McAlpine was confident firing the weapons, because he had played baseball at Michigan State, McAlpine could throw grenades further than most of the other soldiers, and because he had been in the marching band in high school, McAlpine already knew how to march (00:06:51:00) o Basic training lasted for a total of eight weeks, at the beginning of which McAlpine and the other men took a series of test to determine what their MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) would be (00:07:20:00) McAlpine’s MOS was military intelligence, so he was assigned to regular advanced infantry training, which was also at Fort Knox (00:07:43:00) o Specifically, McAlpine was assigned to train in an armored division to train as a scout, part of a new wave of military intelligence having greater interaction with unit scouts (00:08:12:00) o McAlpine does not remember too much about his advanced training, except that it involved more map reading; at the time, the Army was still operating under concepts from the Korean war, so the curriculum for the advanced training was pretty old-fashioned (00:08:47:00)  At the time, McAlpine and the other men were still training with the old M-14 rifle; McAlpine did not see an M-16 rifle until he deployed to Vietnam (00:09:30:00) The second course at Fort Knox lasted for another eight weeks, after which McAlpine was able to go home for a month before deploying to Germany (00:09:45:00) o Receiving the orders for Germany was a surprise to McAlpine because he was not even thinking about serving in Europe (00:10:02:00) o Once his leave ended, McAlpine remembers taking a bus to New York City, where he boarded a ship for the trip across the Atlantic Ocean (00:10:14:00)  On the first night, the ship's crew gave the men chili for dinner and McAlpine remembers that within a couple of hours, all the men were seasick (00:10:25:00)  The journey over to Europe was in November and the traditional November storms on the Atlantic were in full force; one time, McAlpine �stuck his head out a window and saw that some of the waves were taller than the smokestack of the ship (00:10:42:00)  The storms were such as bad experience that when McAlpine finally got off the ship in Bremerhaven, Germany, he kissed the ground and promised himself that when he went home, he was either going to fly home or desert the Army (00:11:09:00) o After McAlpine arrived in Germany, he was assigned to a unit stationed of the West German border with Czechoslovakia (00:11:30:00)  When the other soldiers found out McAlpine had played baseball at Michigan State, he was recruited to join the unit’s baseball team (00:12:06:00)  Because he was on the baseball team, McAlpine did not have to stand in formation, a fact that his company first sergeant did not appreciate (00:12:16:00)  Apart from the baseball team, McAlpine tried out as the only white guy for the unit’s boxing team (00:12:36:00)  One night after boxing practice, McAlpine was surrounded by black guys and they wanted to teach him the lesson that he was not allowed in their gym (00:12:50:00)  The black men “taught” McAlpine his lesson and he ended up in the infirmary, unable to move his arms for several days (00:13:03:00)  Because he was unable to try out for the boxing team and the baseball season had ended, the first sergeant was waiting for McAlpine (00:13:26:00)  Meanwhile, McAlpine had requested deployment to Vietnam, which was denied; McAlpine put in another request and again, the unit commander turned the request down, largely because the commander wanted McAlpine on the baseball team (00:13:38:00)  Once baseball season was over, McAlpine was finally under the control of the company first sergeant and when McAlpine returned to his barracks from the infirmary, the first sergeant was waiting to give his bunk an inspection (00:14:03:00)  When McAlpine’s bunk failed the inspection, the first sergeant tore up the bunk, looked at McAlpine in a “funny” manner, then went and locked the door to the barracks (00:14:25:00)  McAlpine knew he was going to get into a fight with the first sergeant, so as the first sergeant walked back to McAlpine’s bunk, McAlpine punched him (00:14:41:00)  The fight ended when a group of other sergeants broke the barracks’ door down and separated McAlpine from the first sergeant (00:14:58:00)  Soon after his fight with the first sergeant, McAlpine’s request for deployment to Vietnam came through and he was sent to Vietnam (00:15:06:00) �  While in Germany, McAlpine was officially assigned to an armored personnel carrier (APC) and on occasion, his unit would go into the Black Forest to take part in war games; however, because he was on the baseball team, McAlpine never had to take part (00:15:38:00) McAlpine finally left Germany in early fall, 1966 and had another month-long leave at home before having to fly to Oakland, California to deploy to Vietnam (00:16:08:00) o McAlpine spent a few days in Oakland before boarding a military transport that first flew to Hawaii to refuel then to several other islands, also to refuel, before finally arriving in Vietnam (00:16:48:00) Vietnam (00:17:24:00)  McAlpine arrived in Saigon in the latter part of fall, 1966 (00:17:24:00) o McAlpine remembers the flight to An Khe, which was where his new unit, the 1st. Air Cavalry Division was stationed; McAlpine remembers that the pilots wanted to avoid mortar strikes, so they initially approached the airfield at a very high altitude then rapidly descended (00:18:10:00)  Once the plane had landed, McAlpine and the other men were told to go out the door and were quickly hustled off the runway (00:18:41:00)  After arriving in An Khe, McAlpine needed to wait for additional orders and once the orders arrived, he received an assignment to the 1st (Squadron) of the 9th (Cavalry Regiment) (00:18:57:00) o Before McAlpine reported to his new unit, he and the other new arrivals stood in a group and the question was asked if any of the men were married, with any married men made to take a step forward (00:19:09:00)  McAlpine figured that the commanders were going to send all the married men to relatively safe assignments, which he did not want, so he did not step forward (00:19:18:00)  The two groups were separated, with the married men go off in one direction, while the other men, McAlpine included, went in another direction, which was when McAlpine received his assignment to the 1st of the 9th (00:19:34:00) o At the time, the 1st of the 9th was the “most ambitious” unit in the 1st Air Cav., having started most, if not all, the fights that the division had been involved in up to that point; as well, the squadron claimed more than 50% of the entire division’s enemy kills (00:19:47:00) o The 1st of the 9th was divided into four “troops”: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, and Delta, with Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie being helicopter-borne, with each troop having roughly twenty-five helicopters (00:20:21:00)  Normally, the composition of each troop was divided between several different groups, such as pilots and mechanics, as well as support personnel such as cooks and supply clerks (00:20:38:00)  Of the ninety personnel in the troop, roughly thirty were ground scouts while ten or fifteen were airborne scouts using small scout helicopters; apart from the scout and transport helicopters, the units also had helicopter gunships, with a pilot, co-pilot and a pair of door gunners (00:20:47:00) � The gunships and scouts were designated as three groups: Red for gunships, White for airborne scouts, and Blue for ground scouts; when he arrived at the unit, McAlpine was assigned to be a Blue (00:21:16:00)  The concept behind the composition of the battalion was that at first, a scout team would go out and either try to entice the enemy to engage them or would look for signs that the enemy was nearby (00:21:49:00)  The men on the scout team would write the information down and in the following day or two, several squads of Blues would insert into the area to figure out what was going on; in a sense, the Blues would start the fight with the enemy (00:22:16:00) o The men in the Blues would wake up in the morning and know that on one day, they would make numerous air assaults; during one particular day, the Blues made a total of eleven air assaults (00:22:29:00) o When McAlpine arrived at the 1st of the 9th, he did not receive any type of orientation (00:22:58:00)  McAlpine remembers that the first night he was with the unit, he was laying in his bunk when he felt something on his chest (00:23:21:00)  He got out of his bunk and turned the light on, but nothing was around; he turned the light off and got back into his bunk but soon, it felt like something was back on his chest (00:23:28:00) o McAlpine had decided that if he felt something on his chest again, he was going to pull the cord for the light and turn the light on but not get out of bunk (00:28:37:00)  When he felt something on his chest again, McAlpine pulled the cord and on his chest was a rat (00:23:44:00)  As the rat scurried away, McAlpine hopped out of his bunk, grabbed a gun, and started shooting at the rat, which did not go over too well with the other men in the compound because he was shooting inside the perimeter (00:23:54:00) o During his first couple of days with the 1st of the 9th, McAlpine met with the supply sergeants and was assigned his equipment, as well as his personal weapon and ammunition (00:24:13:00)  The Blues were always involved in firefights and there was always a constant needed for new personnel, so within a couple of days of his arrival, McAlpine was flown to a landing zone and introduced to his commanding sergeant (00:24:27:00)  McAlpine and another soldier, a black kid from Chicago, were both sent to the landing zone and the sergeant was in need of soldiers because he had had some men wounded or KIA the previous couple of days (00:24:57:00)  Both McAlpine and the black kid were assigned to the 1st Squad of “B” Troop (00:25:13:00)  McAlpine was initially issued an M-16 rifle but that rifle was eventually replaced by at CAR-15 carbine (00:25:28:00)  The CAR-15 was a little bit shorter and a little bit lighter than the M-16 but jammed just as frequently (00:25:36:00) � McAlpine preferred the CAR-15 because he was doing a lot of air assaults and the smaller the weapon, the better; as well, the environment where he and the other scouts tended to work largely consisted of elephant grass and jungle and a longer weapon, such as the M-16, was not the weapon to have (00:25:43:00)  All the men had the choice of which weapon they wanted to carry, from the M-16 and CAR-15 to shotguns or B.A.R.s (Browning Automatic Rifles), although not too many men chose to use a B.A.R. (00:26:03:00) o It was usually left to the individual squad leaders to tell the men which weapons they should be carrying (00:26:25:00)  For the early part of their time with the squad, McAlpine and the black kid tended to stick close to the veterans in the squad (00:26:54:00)  McAlpine had been an outdoors kid while growing up and the “Cowboys & Indians” aspect of the squad’s operations was a perfect fit for him (00:26:59:00)  McAlpine remembers the squad leader selecting him to be a point man, so for several days, McAlpine walked with the squad leader and the squad leader taught McAlpine the finer points necessary to be the point man (00:27:15:00) o After walking with the squad leader for several days, McAlpine walked behind the point man for several more days to study how the point man moved (00:27:31:00) o The squad always needed a skilled soldier as the point man to avoid ambushes; McAlpine did not mind walking into an ambush, so long as he was by himself but he never wanted to lead all the men into an ambush (00:27:45:00)  McAlpine and the other men in the squad encountered the enemy every day because that was their job, to start fights (00:28:11:00)  When McAlpine first arrived at the squad, the squad leaders and the pilots would have a meeting with the troop’s S-2, who was in charge of intelligence (00:28:27:00) o At the meeting, the men would develop a plan of action for the entire day, although often, the plans changed within an hour anyway (00:28:56:00) o When McAlpine arrived, the Blues operated as a platoon-sized unit under the commander of a captain-level officer, although the platoon never had a captain to command it (00:29:31:00)  The platoon was broken down into four squads, none of which ever had a full compliment of soldiers; normally, a squad was supposed to have eight or nine soldiers but the most they ever had was six or seven (00:29:49:00) o McAlpine recalls several distinct situations happening during his first full month with his squad (00:30:27:00)  At one point, the Blues were stationed at some rubber plantations outside the city of Pleiku (00:30:35:00) � Prior to McAlpine’s arrival, the Blues had a pet monkey that stayed tied up in the platoon’s tent (00:30:44:00)  When the platoon was stationed on the rubber plantation, the jungle butted right against the outside of the tent, with only a single strip of barbed wire acting as the perimeter (00:30:59:00)  Whenever the platoon returned to the tent, the monkey would always jump on the men but one night, the men came home and found the monkey had accidentally hung himself (00:31:35:00) o McAlpine remembers guarding the Bob Hope Christmas Tour when the tour stopped in Pleiku (00:31:55:00)  The platoon was on the outside perimeter and were only supposed to prevent anything from getting inside; if something happened inside the perimeter, then another unit had to take care of the situation (00:32:00:00) o The terrain where the platoon was operating was largely jungle (00:32:38:00) o When the platoon would go out on missions, they could insert via either landing zones or rappelling out of the helicopters, although for the most part, the helicopters would fly to a pre-determined landing zone (00:33:16:00)  The squadron’s commanding officer was a colonel and prior to operations, would fly in a helicopter about 3000’ off the ground and pick out a specific landing zone for the Blues (00:33:24:00)  If the operation was set to begin at first light, the gunships would prep the landing zone before the Blues' helicopters would go into the landing zone (00:30:38:00)  In reality, the Blues' helicopters never actually landed on the ground; instead, the Blues developed a method whereby they jumped off the helicopter as the helicopter flew through the landing zone (00:33:54:00) o The men had to be very precise when jumping off because if an entire side jump off together, then the helicopter would tip to the other side (00:34:03:00)  Normally, the helicopter would be several feet off the ground, depending on the terrain, and would fly into the landing zone, slow down as much as they could, would hear the soldiers jump off, and would fly out (00:34:18:00)  The commanders never wanted the helicopters to land because it was too difficult for the helicopters to take off again and it was too slow (00:34:46:00)  The helicopter pilots never carried any weapons because they knew they were safe with the other soldiers around; the soldiers took care of the pilots and the pilots took care of the soldiers (00:34:55:00)  The Hueys used to carry the men were often early models and did not have the power to take off; the gunships were often late models and did have the power necessary to carry around the extra ammunition (00:35:09:00) � o o o o The early model Hueys only had enough power to carry the two pilots and seven or eight soldiers, who were often loaded up with ammunition and supplies (00:35:34:00)  There was not a tried and true method for avoiding injury when jumping out of the helicopters; for the most part, it depended on the terrain of the landing zone (00:35:51:00)  Sometimes, the men would hit the ground and roll and other times, they were able to land on their feet (00:35:55:00)  McAlpine does not know of anyone specifically who was hurt jumping out of the helicopters (00:35:59:00)  For the most part, it was 50/50 between landing in a hot LZ (Landing Zone) as opposed to a cold LZ (00:36:17:00)  The men knew they were being sent into a specific area to look for the enemy; therefore, they never really expected to land in a quiet area (00:36:19:00) o Instead, they would go into areas where the enemy had been seen (00:36:31:00)  If the Blues could handle the situation, that was fine, but if they could not take care of it, then additional forces would be brought into the fight (00:36:41:00)  As far as McAlpine can remember, the Blues never had an aborted flight, which was sometimes a detriment to the men (00:37:06:00) o Helicopters were shot down all the time but in the minds of the officers, they were acceptable loses (00:37:16:00) During his first week or two with the unit, McAlpine noticed that some of the younger soldiers took certain situations for granted; the young soldiers would be on an ambush all night then have to do a landing the next morning (00:37:30:00)  McAlpine remembers that he could not believe they would be coming into a hot LZ, the enemy was shooting at the helicopter, and some of the younger soldiers would be asleep (00:37:51:00)  Standing on the skids of the helicopter going into an LZ was such “mundane, normal act” that the soldiers were trying to get thirty seconds of sleep (00:38:03:00)  However, after serving with the platoon for several weeks, McAlpine understood what the soldiers were experiencing; the constant missions just wore him down (00:38:15:00) When McAlpine first joined his squad, he was the only white guy in the squad but by the time he left, there was only one or two black guys remaining in the squad (00:38:34:00) Every squad on the platoon had a radio, while the platoon commander had two, one radio to maintain contact with the colonel circling overhead and one radio to maintain contact with the squads (00:39:14:00) After they would land at a landing zone, the platoon would form up and begin moving towards their mission objective, such as a village where a couple of days before, scouts had seen uniformed NVA soldiers (00:39:32:00) �   If the men had deployed into the mountains, their mission might involve investigating a hut where, two nights before, smoke had been seen coming out of the chimney (00:39:47:00) o For the most part, the platoon’s operations occurred in the An Lao, A Shau, and Ia Drang valleys; McAlpine spent 90% of his time working on operations in those three valleys (00:40:01:00)  Working in the valleys was fun because the men knew they were going to get their money's worth from the enemy by the end of the day (00:40:16:00) o Once the Blues were inserted, they were expected to handle to situation but if they could not, then they were supposed to call in reinforcements, such as artillery or air strikes (00:40:29:00) o One man in McAlpine’s squad carried an M-60 machine gun, which represented the heavy firepower, while every other man carried at least two hundred rounds of ammunition for the M-60 (00:40:35:00)  However, the M-60 gunner would use the machine gun five or six times a day, so the men always needed re-supply (00:41:01:00) st o The 1 of the 9th was extremely high-powered and the squadron had its own gunships; the gunship pilots often knew the names of the men in the Blues and they were not going to allow the Blues to be overrun by the enemy (00:41:33:00)  The Blues would normally have a forward artillery observer with them and prior to going out on a mission, the observer would set up coordinates with the men, so that if the men did run into trouble, there would be no problems calling in artillery strikes (00:42:06:00)  As well, four or five times a week, the men would call in air strikes on enemy positions (00:42:21:00) Overall, there was a different fighting philosophy attached to the 1st Air Cav. opposed to many other fighting units and the 1st of the 9th had a completely different philosophy compared to the rest of the units in the 1st Air Cav. (00:42:58:00) o The 1st of the 9th was acting almost as quasi-guinea pigs for their fighting methodology and the pilots knew that for the 1st of the 9th’s methodology to work properly, they needed to provide as much support as possible (00:43:07:00) o To that end, a ready reaction force of a couple hundred men waited every day, in case the Blues made contact with the enemy but were unable to completely handle the situation (00:43:28:00)  If the Blues started something they could not finish, the commanders determined how many men from the ready reaction force were needed and those men were brought into the fight (00:43:35:00)  It was common for the Blues to start a fight alone but soon have back-up from any number of other squadrons in the division (00:43:43:00) o On some days, the Blues would be pulled out of one area and told they needed to make an insertion into another hotspot (00:43:59:00)  When that happened, the men would get a drink of water, get more ammunition, then insert into another area (00:44:12:00) The men spent all their time in the field, never in the base camp (00:44:38:00) �  o The men might have had a stand-down once every month but it always seemed like something would come over the radio, saying that there was an assignment for the men (00:44:48:00) For the most part, the men largely operated out of forward fire bases (00:45:02:00) o Because the men were always involved in intense fighting, their commanders did not want to leave them in the field overnight (00:45:07:00)  Normally, the commanders would try to pull the men back to a semiprotected landing zone and during the night, the men would either have to defend the perimeter, put of a listening post outside the perimeter, or go out on an ambush outside the wire (00:45:17:00)  Many times, McAlpine’s men would set out an ambush but they would be so tired that they would fall asleep as soon as they sat down in the elephant grass (00:45:38:00)  Although the commanders would have liked all the men to stay awake during the night, the men could ration it out so that only two men were awake at a time throughout the night (00:46:08:00)  When McAlpine received promotion to staff sergeant, it was his job to make sure everything was taken care of during the night and at least one person was awake; however, he can also guarantee that at some points, everyone in the squad was asleep (00:46:24:00) Normally, the men would move along trails in the field, although it often depended on the environment and situation (00:46:48:00) o Often, if a situation looked too good to be true, then chances were, it was too good to be true (00:46:54:00) o The point man would often walk down the trail while two other soldiers would advance along his flanks (00:47:08:00) o As well, there was always at least one helicopter above the men; however, instead of hovering directly over the squad’s position, the helicopter would criss-cross over the area so that the enemy had no definitive way of knowing where the squad was (00:47:14:00)  The helicopter could also see what was ahead of the soldiers and could if there was enemy activity (00:47:45:00) o Often, the men did not encounter too much of the prototypical triple canopy jungle; the enemy might lose track of the squad’s movements, which is not something they wanted to do with that group (00:48:05:00) o Booby-traps along the trails were common but over time, the soldiers developed a sense for where the traps might be (00:48:22:00) o When a soldier walked the point or on the trail, he could not think about anything else other than walking point (00:48:35:00)  A young man might be twenty-years-old when he goes over to Vietnam but within two months, he is a forty-year-old man (00:48:41:00)  The man is in touch with himself and with his senses and his awareness of particular situations; he knows that if he is not right, then the consequences are tremendous (00:48:48:00)  It took McAlpine about three weeks with the squad before he began walking point himself (00:49:11:00) �  The squad’s old point man got hit, which was not unusual, so McAlpine took the man’s place and walked point for the remainder of his tour, even once he became a squad leader (00:49:14:00) o The men would get a feel for the terrain and were able to sense ambushes and booby-traps before they happened, even by smell (00:49:44:00)  Although the enemy could place booby-traps anywhere, they often did not place them far away from something, usually villages; often the boobytraps were punji sticks, meant to only slow the soldiers down so that the enemy could get away (00:50:04:00) o Some of the areas where the men operated had a large numbers of tunnels and other areas, such as mountains, did not have as many (00:50:42:00)  However, there were some mountains that were all tunnels and McAlpine recalls collapsing an entire mountain that the enemy had honeycombed with tunnels (00:51:03:00)  The men filled the tunnels with explosives and when they set the explosives off, the whole mountain went up then came down, which was a beautiful sight (00:51:12:00)  Marine forces had arrived at the mountain before McAlpine’s men but McAlpine’s men were inserted with orders to get to the top of the mountain to examine what sort of tunnels they were dealing with (00:51:25:00)  The men encountered several ambushes and firefights on the way to the top of the mountain; by the time they reached the top, there were only five men left in the squad and two of the men, including McAlpine, were suffering from heat stroke (00:51:38:00)  McAlpine was pulled off the mountaintop and taken to a hospital in the rear area, where the medics placed him in a large metal tub full of ice (00:51:50:00) After McAlpine was with his squad for a couple of weeks, he received a promotion to E3 (00:53:17:00) o At some point, one of the sergeants was killed and McAlpine was selected to take the sergeant’s spot on the flank (00:53:29:00) o Eventually, the squad was involved in a firefight where most of the squad members were either wounded or killed, including the squad leader, who had been wounded (00:53:38:00)  McAlpine carried the squad leader out of the firefight but as he had the man on his shoulders, the man was shot again (00:54:01:00) o After the firefight, McAlpine was the old man in the squad and he received both promotion to E-4 and command of the squad, which was normally a position reserved for an E-6; therefore, he received promotion to an E-5, a sergeant (00:54:30:00) o Within a very short period of time after McAlpine received his promotion, the lieutenant commanding the platoon was killed and there were no available lieutenants, so McAlpine took over as platoon leader until there was another lieutenant available (00:55:01:00) �   There were several career-oriented NCOs in the troop and McAlpine believes that his promotion to replace the deceased lieutenant might have rubbed them the wrong way (00:55:28:00)  For the most part, the senior NCOs were often squad leaders (00:56:08:00) o Eventually, McAlpine returned to commanding his squad, still as an E-5 in an E-6 slot (00:56:24:00)  After a couple of months, the E-7 came to McAlpine and said he was being promoted to E-6 (00:56:34:00)  The promotion to E-6 meant that McAlpine was earning over six hundred dollars a month, all of which he sent home (00:56:55:00)  The men tended to live off the land and there were never any stores to actually shop at (00:57:16:00)  On occasion, enemy soldiers would have money in their pockets, so any new soldiers were told not to shot the enemy in the pockets because there might be money in them (00:57:21:00) Because the 1st of the 9th was a very aggressive unit and the men were fighting every day, they fought against both NVA regulars and Viet Cong (00:57:59:00) o If the men fought every day for four days, McAlpine figures they fought against the NVA on four or five of those days (00:58:18:00) o Although the NVA did not always wear traditional NVA uniforms, they would be wearing NVA backpacks and using NVA weapons, which was how the soldiers were able to tell them from the Viet Cong (00:58:32:00) One time, the men had deployed into Cambodia with specific orders not to cause problems by engaging the enemy (00:59:21:00) o One way or another, the mission was compromised, the men got into a firefight and killed six Chinese soldiers (00:58:29:00) o The colonel, who was circling above the area as always, asked if anyone had a camera and when McAlpine said he did, the colonel said he wanted pictures of the bodies and wanted the men to take the Chinese weapons (00:59:44:00) o One interesting thing was that all the Chinese soldiers were over 6’2” (01:00:10:00) o Going into Cambodia was not a common mission; on occasion, the men would accidentally stray across the border but the helicopter pilots would call down to alert them (01:00:38:00) Decorations / Misc. (01:01:40:00)  McAlpine earned several decorations for gallantry, including two Silver Stars and a Bronze Star (01:01:40:00) o McAlpine’s first silver star was earned when his squad was moving through a valley and were ambushed (01:01:41:00)  During the course of the ambush, the squad leader and several squad members had been either wounded or killed; eventually, only McAlpine and one other soldier were the only two men in the squad who were not wounded or killed (01:01:53:00) � McAlpine was giving first aid to the wounded soldiers around him, mostly stopping the bleeding and dragging them out of the killing zone (01:02:04:00)  The only other uninjured soldier happened to be the platoon’s supply sergeant, who had previously asked McAlpine if, at some point, he could go out in with McAlpine’s squad so he could earn his combat infantryman’s badge (01:02:32:00)  After about fifteen minutes of fighting, McAlpine and the supply sergeant were the only two men left (01:03:27:00)  Eventually, McAlpine told the supply sergeant that they needed to clear out the enemy, who had hidden in some rocks; McAlpine told the supply sergeant to take the high ground while McAlpine took the low ground (01:03:35:00)  As the two soldiers progressed through the rocks, McAlpine heard the sound of an AK-47 then a groan, which he interpreted as the supply sergeant being shot by an AK-47 (01:04:04:00)  McAlpine then heard the sound of an M-16 falling through the rocks, so he suspected that the supply sergeant had been killed as well (01:04:26:00)  As time passed, McAlpine slowly filtered his way through the rocks, trying to stay alive while simultaneously killing as many enemy as possible (01:04:50:00)  At one point, he saw an enemy soldier climbing down the rocks backwards but at the same time, saw another enemy soldier coming from a different direction (01:05:04:00) o McAlpine shot the second enemy soldier then turned around and killed the enemy soldier who was climbing down the rocks (01:05:22:00)  McAlpine was eventually wounded in the knee by a ricocheted bullet (01:05:31:00)  McAlpine did eventually receive some re-enforcements, including a friend of McAlpine who was in another squad (01:05:37:00)  With the friend’s help, McAlpine was able to finish driving the enemy out of the rocks (01:06:07:00) o Firefights with the enemy happened every day and McAlpine believes that all the men in his unit should have, at one point or another, received some type of decoration for their actions (01:07:22:00) o McAlpine earned his second silver star in May, when his platoon had followed some communication wire into a village and found itself embroiled in a massive firefight with the enemy (01:07:37:00)  The soldiers had just gotten off the helicopters when the pilots saw the communication wire leaving the village; the communication wire was a big deal because it usually indicated that there was a NVA command post of some sort in the village (01:07:47:00)  McAlpine’s squad was advancing on the left flank while another squad was advancing along the trail itself (01:08:08:00) � Once the other squad made it into the village, they accidentally sprung an enemy ambush and lost three or four soldiers right away with a couple more being wounded (01:08:19:00)  The firefight lasted for most of the afternoon and the men eventually ran out of both water and ammunition (01:08:37:00)  Re-enforcements were constantly being brought in to the soldier’s rear and air strikes were being called in constantly (01:08:48:00)  At one point, a relief helicopter was being flown to the men carrying more ammunition (01:09:00:00)  As the helicopter flew in, the crew were pushing the ammo crates off the side of the helicopter; however, the pilot had the helicopter 100’ feet off the ground and between McAlpine’s squad and the enemy (01:09:20:00)  The enemy managed to shoot the helicopter down and as the helicopter came down, the crew chief and door gunner, who were not strapped in, managed to jump out and run over to where McAlpine’s squad was positioned (01:09:28:00)  In the meantime, the helicopter was on fire and starting to set the ammunition off (01:09:45:00) o Both pilots were out knocked out cold or wounded and were hanging upside down in the helicopter (01:09:50:00)  As the other crewmen were running towards McAlpine, he was running towards them to try and get the pilots out of the burning wreckage (01:10:01:00)  McAlpine and two other men cut the pilots out and dragged both men back to where the rest of the squad had taken up their defensive positions (01:10:08:00)  Eventually, the squad managed to give the pilots to some reenforcements who had come in behind them (01:10:37:00) o McAlpine remembers a young soldier in the reenforcements running up to grab a body but he made the mistake of standing straight up and sure enough, a splitsecond later, his chest exploded (01:10:43:00) o At the same time, McAlpine watched as the reenforcements came in and one of the men standing on a helicopter’s skid was shot and ended up falling all the way to the ground (01:11:07:00) o McAlpine also earned three Purple Hearts, including one from the ricocheted bullet in his knee when he moving to clear out the rock formation when he earned his first Silver Star (01:11:27:00)  McAlpine received another when a piece of shrapnel went into his foot and ankle; the shrapnel itself did not come out of McAlpine until several years after his time in the military, when he was taking a shower and rubbing his ankle (01:11:41:00) �   Another time, McAlpine had a hand grenade landed near his face; although the hand grenade was a dud, it still threw stuff into McAlpine’s face, causing him to bleed (01:12:08:00)  McAlpine’s friends thought he was dying but he could not feel anything, so when he rubbed his face and saw the blood, it came as a surprise (01:12:26:00)  Although McAlpine did not think he was hurt, the other men told him he needed to be medevaced out, so he hopped in a helicopter (01:12:40:00)  Medievac helicopters would not come unless there had not been any gunfire for several minutes but at the time, the firefight was still going on, so McAlpine boarded one of the troop’s own helicopters (01:12:56:00)  As the helicopter was flying away from the battle, they were flying 100mph+ down a canyon and as a bridge approached, McAlpine, who was still laying in the back, kept willing the pilot to pull up; instead, the pilot flew under the bridge (01:13:14:00) Although he was originally supposed to receive two R&Rs, McAlpine only received one and went to Bangkok, Thailand for a week (01:14:01:00) o While in Bangkok, McAlpine ended up going to jail for two days, so he did not have full, week-long R&R (01:14:13:00) o Going on the R&R was a totally different experience than life in the field, where the majority of the men fully expected to be wounded or killed (01:14:28:00) o McAlpine remembers there was a merchant selling sugar cane from a cart pulled by a donkey; McAlpine bought the whole cart and he and the merchant went around, handing the sugar out to kids for free (01:14:54:00) o Getting on the plane to go back to Vietnam was not difficult for McAlpine; he was in jail and was happy to get out (01:15:35:00)  McAlpine was thrown in jail because he had a little bit of trouble at a local nightclub (01:15:46:00)  The nightclub had an entire wall made of glass and McAlpine, who had only ever seen glass in windows, accidentally knocked the wall over and broke it; when the police were called, there was a disagreement over who would pay for the broken glass (01:15:56:00)  The police officers had McAlpine’s paperwork and knew he had to be at the airport on a specific date at a specific time, so on that date and at that time, the police made sure McAlpine was there (01:16:26:00) As new men came into the squad, McAlpine and the other, more experienced men, felt obligated to instruct the new men; however, McAlpine does have some regrets regarding that particular process (01:17:05:00) o Although the platoon was technically supposed to be military intelligence, none of the men actually knew what they were going to be doing (01:17:13:00) o When McAlpine would start looking for a replacement for his squad, he was looking for a very specific type of individual (01:17:36:00)  At the base in An Khe, there was a large tent that all the soldiers stayed in; McAlpine’s bunk was marked and the new soldiers were told they could �  sleep anywhere but McAlpine’s bunk, since he would kick anyone’s butt who slept in the bunk (01:17:43:00)  When he would periodically go back to An Khe, McAlpine would find out who had slept in his bunk, because that was the type of soldier he wanted in his squad (01:18:11:00) o Once a new man joined the squad, McAlpine would train with the man every day (01:18:36:00) o If McAlpine needed a replacement, he would return to An Khe for a couple of hours; however, he was eventually kicked out of An Khe and told that if he ever came back, he would get thrown in jail (01:18:52:00)  McAlpine had such a bond with the men in his squad that he felt an obligation to be fighting with them (01:19:40:00)  McAlpine would go into An Khe for a couple of hours, pick up two or three replacements, then the group would hop aboard another helicopter out to the squad (01:19:54:00) Although McAlpine spent most of his time around An Khe, which was in the Central Highlands and fell in II Corps’ jurisdiction, he also spent time further north, in I Corps’ area of operations (01:20:36:00) One night, the platoon had set out for an ambush and while McAlpine’s squad was supposed to move onto one side of a village, another sergeant was supposed to lead his squad to the other side of the village (01:20:55:00) o McAlpine remembers being told to go to radio silence and to only use the radios if they ran into trouble (01:21:12:00) o The other squad saw some enemy and decided to go into the village after them; however, it turned out the group was a wedding, but the other squad did not know this at the time (01:21:24:00)  The squad killed the VC soldiers in the group, shaved the head of the bride, raped a couple of the women, and threw the dead VC bodies into a well, along with a couple of grenades; at the time, everything except raping the women was normal for the soldiers to do (01:21:54:00) o When McAlpine later talked with the other sergeant and asked how everything had gone, the sergeant said that everything was normal (01:22:48:00) o A couple of days later, McAlpine was wounded and forced to go into the hospital (01:22:52:00) o As it turned out, the girl who had been getting married was the daughter of a village chief; the chief complained to the MACV (Military Assistance Command Vietnam, which oversaw American operations), who called up the 1st Air Cav., who came to the 1st of the 9th, and went through the after-action reports to see who was in the village that night (01:23:01:00) o Once McAlpine returned to his unit after healing for a couple of weeks in the hospital, both his and the other squad were standing in line-ups (01:23:28:00)  The bride then came to identify the soldiers in the squads who had attacked her (01:23:42:00)  The captain in charge of the company told McAlpine not to stand in the line-up but when McAlpine asked why, the captain did not give him a reason (01:24:01:00) � o The bride identified the other sergeant and his squad as having done everything, so McAlpine’s squad was off the hook; however, the soldiers in the other squad denied everything the bride said (01:24:18:00)  One of the men in the squad, who had been sent to infiltrate and investigate the unit by higher command, given the unit’s growing notoriety, subsequently stepped forward, identified himself, and said that yes, what the woman was saying about the squad was true (01:24:37:00) o The men in the other squad were supposed to be arrested but they were in the field and the MPs did not want to come out there to get them because they were afraid of the men (01:25:18:00)  Instead, the division asked McAlpine’s squad to guard the men in the other squad; McAlpine’s squad said they would, so all they did for three or four days was sit around their tent and play cards (01:25:30:00)  The MPs eventually came in force but the other squad surrendered and all were sentenced to prison terms (01:25:57:00) o Once the other squad had been arrested, the men in McAlpine’s squad drew straws as to who would go to the rear area to kill the man who had turned the other squad in (01:26:20:00)  Although he was the squad leader and controlled the straws, McAlpine still drew the short straw (01:26:30:00) o McAlpine went back to An Khe and began looking for the snitch; however, his best friend from high school, who was serving as an MP, walked past (01:26:49:00)  The friend asked McAlpine how everything was going and when the friend asked McAlpine what unit he was with and McAlpine told him, McAlpine saw a look of recognition on the friend’s face (01:27:06:00)  The friend offered the get McAlpine a cold Coca-Cola and returned with four additional MPs, who escorted McAlpine to a general’s tent (01:27:37:00)  The general interviewed McAlpine for a moment and asked why McAlpine was in An Khe (01:27:55:00)  The general gave McAlpine a lecture and told him that if he ever came back to An Khe again, then the general was going to put him in jail (01:28:57:00)  The general had McAlpine placed on a helicopter and had him flown back to his unit (01:29:06:00) o It took a long time for McAlpine to get over the urge to settle the score with the man who had snitched on the other squad (01:29:49:00) When the squad would go into the field, they would encounter Vietnamese villages and they would have to search through them (01:30:19:00) o The soldiers also encounter Montagnard villages but because there was not much action in those villages, the Montagnards were much more friendly towards the soldiers (01:30:27:00)  Although McAlpine believes the NVA and VC constantly harassed the Montagnards, he does not think that the NVA and VC set up specific combat against them (01:31:03:00) �   Just by looking at the Montagnards, the soldiers could tell that they were ethnically different from the Vietnamese (01:31:31:00) Late in McAlpine’s tour, his troop’s camp was moved north to I Corps; however, it was not too long after that that McAlpine’s tour ended, so he does not recall too much about the time in I Corps (01:31:59:00) The various camps where McAlpine’s soldiers would spend the night only came under mortar attack a handful of times (01:32:28:00) o At one point, the squadron had just taken over an ammunition dump from a Marine Corps unit and enemy forces had made it so that the Marines were unable to get out of their own perimeter (01:32:38:00)  When the 1st of the 9th arrived at the ammunition dump, their arrival was unlike anything the enemy soldiers had ever witnessed (01:33:09:00)  The daily kill ratio eventually reached one hundred dead enemy soldiers for every one killed American soldier (01:33:27:00)  When the enemy began mortaring the ammunition dump, McAlpine took his squad out and found the enemy mortar tubes, but not the enemy mortarmen; the squad destroyed the mortar tubes then for the next couple of nights, would slip out to there the tubes were, hoping to find the enemy mortarmen (01:33:35:00) o Although the enemy never launched mortar rounds onto the ammunition dump again, they still managed to destroy the majority of the supplies being held at the ammunition dump (01:34:36:00) End of Deployment / Post-Military Life / Misc. / Reflections (01:35:44:00)  For the pilots in the unit, they were asked to go to the rear area thirty days before they were set to rotate home; however, that was a luxury that McAlpine and the other ground scouts did not have (01:35:44:00) o McAlpine and the other the ground scouts never knew exactly when they would be rotating out (01:35:58:00)  McAlpine remembers that on the day he rotated out, the first sergeant met him on the flight line before the squad went out on its first assault and said that McAlpine was not going out that day (01:36:01:00) o When the first sergeant told him this, McAlpine started crying because he could not believe he had made it through the tour (01:36:17:00) o McAlpine said his good byes to his squad as the squad was flying off to do their first assault of the day (01:36:34:00) o After he said his good byes and the squad left, McAlpine returned to An Khe and told the captain in charge of the rotations that he was going to be staying in a bunker; McAlpine had made it through the tour and did not want to risk anything, so he told the captain to just bring him food and beer (01:36:51:00)  The captain did as McAlpine requested but McAlpine got so drunk that he missed his ride to the airport (01:37:10:00) o McAlpine boarded a C-7 Caribou transport and the next thing he remembers, he was in Fort Lewis, Washington (01:37:37:00) �       McAlpine was the highest ranking person in his barracks at Fort Lewis, so he was put in charge of making sure everyone in the barracks was in formation in the morning (01:37:54:00)  At one point, a major want McAlpine to tell his men to police the area for garbage but McAlpine said no (01:38:31:00) From Fort Lewis, McAlpine flew to Chicago, where he took a taxi to Moline, Illinois and began attending Palmer College the same day (01:39:09:00) o McAlpine’s brother was already attending Palmer and had already enrolled McAlpine, using McAlpine’s grades from Michigan State and from high school (01:39:27:00) While in Vietnam, McAlpine’s unit received mail usually once a week; however, getting mail only once a week was not that big of a deal because all the men had more important things to worry about (01:39:56:00) For the most part, the men survived off C-Rations, although on occasion, when they would return to their landing zone for the evening, there was a hot meal (01:40:18:00) Although most all of the men suffered from one tropical disease or another at some point, the men realized that there was not much they could do about it (01:41:01:00) o After McAlpine had been home for a couple of months, he was talking with his father about pain in his feet; however, his father waved it off, saying he had the same thing working on the farm (01:41:09:00) Having enough drinking water was never much of a problem because the men were always operating near streams and rivers, so if they ever ran out of water, the could just fill their canteens up there (01:41:36:00) o Each man always carried two, if not three, canteens with him whenever the squad went into the field (01:41:42:00) o The monsoon season affected how well the squad could operate, mostly because the low ceiling caused by the rain made it impossible for the helicopters to fly properly (01:42:01:00)  Apart from assaulting positions, the squad was also assigned the job of rescuing any downed pilots and securing the helicopters; however, the monsoons made doing this job difficult (01:42:13:00)  At one point, one of McAlpine’s friends was shot down and the rescuers could not reach him in time; instead, the friend was captured and spent six years in the infamous North Vietnamese POW camp, the Hanoi Hilton (01:42:47:00)  The friend was the troop’s flight surgeon and did not know what to do once he was on the ground; his fear made him walk away from the helicopter where, had he stayed there and hid, McAlpine and his squad would have found him (01:43:14:00) In the unit, it was more common for men to leave because they had been wounded as opposed to finishing their tour (01:43:53:00) o Almost everyone in the troop, at one point or another, received a Purple Heart; McAlpine does not know of anyone in the Blues who did not receive one, or several, Purple Hearts (01:43:57:00)  Receiving medals entirely depended on having an officer available to do a proper write-up; McAlpine was twice recommended for the Medal of �  Honor but both times, the decorations were reduced to Silver Stars (01:44:17:00)  However, McAlpine did not even know he had received the medals until he was on his way home (01:44:24:00)  Nevertheless, in his mind, the medals were less important than the fact that he was going home alive, able to see and speak with his parents and rest of his family (01:44:36:00) While in Vietnam, the men vaguely knew a little bit about the anti-war movement in the United States, but not too much (01:45:03:00) o However, when he got back to United States and began attending college, McAlpine did not comprehend the full extent of the anti-war sentiment in the United States (01:45:06:00)  At first, McAlpine tried to ask the demonstrators why they were demonstrating and what the problem was (01:45:18:00)  When the demonstrators could not give McAlpine a straight answer, he tried talking with them but that method did not go anywhere (01:45:26:00)  McAlpine would then physically confront the demonstrators, the police would come, and McAlpine would go to jail (01:45:35:00)  McAlpine’s brother had to get McAlpine out of jail several times because McAlpine was physically disrupting the demonstrations (01:45:44:00)  McAlpine could not drive down a road and see people protesting about something they knew nothing about without doing something, especially having gone through what he had in Vietnam (01:45:59:00)  Although McAlpine initially tried to reason with the demonstrators, that method never worked, so McAlpine eventually resorted to just grabbing the protestors signs and posters and destroying them (01:46:24:00)  The police would inevitably be called and they knew McAlpine in a very short period of time; although the police agreed with McAlpine, it was still against the law for him to attack the demonstrators (01:46:44:00) o Eventually, the demonstrations stopped but McAlpine has still not calmed down regarding the actions of the demonstrators (01:47:02:00) When he returned home, McAlpine never openly talked about his experiences in Vietnam (01:47:44:00) o However, his reputation had preceded him to Palmer, where one of the administrators had fought in the Korean War and had received the Silver Star, so McAlpine had to talk with him (01:47:46:00)  When McAlpine pledged into his brother’s fraternity, a couple of the other fraternity members called him Audie Murphy and McAlpine threw them out a couple of windows; that was not a comparison that he wanted being made about him (01:48:15:00) o For the most part, McAlpine did not talk about his experiences because he did not think anyone cared, which was true at the time (01:48:32:00) � o Those people who knew McAlpine had served in the military knew he was a man of principles and would not break under pressure (01:48:36:00) o More recently, McAlpine has done talks about his experiences at various colleges and universities in Michigan, including Grand Valley State University, Michigan State University, Western Michigan University, Central Michigan University, and Hope College (01:49:04:00) During on the recent reunions for the unit, McAlpine ran into one of the old helicopter pilots; the two renewed acquaintances and stories, the friend mentioned he was looking for a job, and McAlpine helped the man find a job in Michigan (01:49:59:00) o At one point, the friend called McAlpine to say he was going back to Vietnam and he wanted McAlpine to go with him and another pilot (01:50:27:00)  McAlpine said that he did not want to go and that he had no reason to go back there (01:50:54:00)  The friend said he would call back the following week and when he did, he told McAlpine that by the time McAlpine did want to go back, he would be too old to appreciate going back (01:51:02:00)  The crack about McAlpine being too old hit home and McAlpine began giving the trip serious consideration, eventually deciding it was a good idea to go (01:51:18:00) o McAlpine went with the two pilots back to Vietnam and the three had a great time; during the trip, McAlpine saw Vietnam in a way that he had never seen Vietnam before (01:51:37:00)  While serving there, he never saw a road or a city or electricity, never ate their food or experienced their culture and, never saw them dressed in anything other than black pajamas (01:51:45:00)  The trip rekindled a fire inside McAlpine that there was something in Vietnam that he had missed while serving during the war and he owed it to himself to look at the country differently (01:52:02:00) o After McAlpine returned from the trip, he was asked to give a presentation to the Rotary Club; one of the Rotary Club members was a Vietnamese expatriate who was going to Vietnam in a couple of months and was wondering if McAlpine would go with him (01:52:19:00)  The expatriate was going to Vietnam to do business, so McAlpine met some Vietnamese business people (01:52:32:00)  While the other man was conducting business, McAlpine hired a car and going up to Pleiku, visited a floor-making factory; having recently redone the floors in his house, McAlpine saw how inexpensive production was and formed the idea of starting a business (01:52:37:00)  McAlpine organized his finances, insured the entire operation and began importing hardwood floors (01:53:16:00) o The Vietnamese attitude towards the soldiers who return to visit Vietnam is one of love and admiration (01:53:47:00) o During one of his trips back to Vietnam, McAlpine traveled up to the city of Hanoi (01:54:41:00)  McAlpine was working with a young lady as a guide and she took him to the flooring company he was looking to do business with (01:54:50:00) �  The head of the company wanted to know more about McAlpine, specifically if he had been in the Army, had had served in Vietnam, and had served near Pleiku (01:55:29:00)  The man’s father had served at Pleiku from 1966 until 1967 as the general commanding the area for the NVA (01:55:45:00)  The man asked if McAlpine would like to meet his father and McAlpine said he would love to; after questioning McAlpine, the man said his father would be there in ten minutes (01:56:15:00)  Ten minutes later, the father showed up and he turned out to be a very nice man; the father had not talked with an American since the 1960s, so his son translated between he and McAlpine (01:56:50:00) Looking back, when McAlpine returned home from Vietnam, he appreciated his family more, as well as a hot shower and hot food (01:58:48:00) o As well, McAlpine was more in tune, both with God and with himself; he understood himself better and realized that he had been born as a warrior, could control a lot of his own destiny, and he understands that he can control a lot of things (01:58:58:00) o McAlpine’s time in the service helped in defining him as a person (01:59:05:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McAlpineB1378V Title A name given to the resource McAlpine, Barry (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McAlpine, Barry Description An account of the resource Barry McAlpine was born in Cass City, Michigan in 1945. After graduating from high school in 1963, McAlpine briefly worked at General Motors before attending Michigan State University. However, his time at Michigan State did not work out and in 1965, McAlpine received his draft notice. After going through the induction center in Detroit, McAlpine went to Fort Knox, Kentucky for his basic training. Once he completed the basic training at Fort Knox, McAlpine's MOS was military intelligence, which required him to go through advanced infantry training, also at Fort Knox. After finishing the advanced training at Fort Knox, McAlpine deployed to Germany, where he received an assignment to a unit stationed of the West German border with Czechoslovakia. McAlpine left Germany in 1966 and after a short leave, deployed to Vietnam. Once in Vietnam, McAlpine's orders sent him to "B" Troop, 1st of the 9th, 1st Air Cavalry Division. While with "B" Troop, McAlpine served as a member of the Blues, a ground scout section of the troop tasked with purposely finding and engaging the enemy. McAlpine spent his entire tour with "B" Troop, eventually becoming a squad leader. When his tour ended, McAlpine returned to the United States and began going back to college. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2878f13b81293cb79952f6f6f5c4f070.mp4 48cba395d252b56f33a6a0eb57f78b5a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f35326d18cd05f977d0d5295e4ebef2e.pdf 645fc4f028c97b227f10aedf3ef179c4 PDF Text Text McCarthy, Stacie Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Iraq War Interviewee’s Name: Stacie McCarthy Length of Interview: (26:59) Interviewed by: Koty Leroy-Rollins Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “Hello this is a joint production between W.K T.V Voices and the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. My name is Koty Leroy-Rollins with the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project, and I’m here with Stacie McCarthy of Grand Rapids, Michigan. Alright, let’s go ahead and start, when and where were you born?” I was born March 10th 1985 back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, in Framingham Massachusetts. Interviewer: Okay, so what was life like? How did you wind up joining the military?” (1:03) Well it’s interesting, I had about six years of a fairly normal childhood in a suburban neighborhood and then my mother and father split up, basically mother took us kids and unfortunately we had 60- we lived in a pretty bad situation. My dad got custody and married my current mom who used to be in the Navy, so I was raised in Michigan from 12 to 20 and around 18 my mom started mentioning that the Navy might be good for me, and then I did a little research and said “Hell yeah I wanna do this.” Interviewer: “Alright, before we get into your Navy career with a lot of the younger veterans we like to ask, do you remember 9/11? Do you remember what it was like seeing that moment?” �McCarthy, Stacie Yes, I was in high school actually my junior year, and it was between- it was between classes, I’m walking from one class to another and I noticed the T.V’s are on and there’s two buildings and one of them’s on fire, and so we just- No classes happened the rest of the day we just sat there in each class and just watched everything unfold and it was a shock at first. I didn’t know how to feel and then the more we watched it the more everything like, the reality of it came and it was pretty terrifying and devastating. Interviewer: “Did that have any influence on your wanting to join the military?” In a way yeah, I kind of wanted to help keep people safe, but I also wanted to get the hell out of Michigan. Interviewer: “That’s fair, so you moved from Massachussettes to Michigan with you dad right?” Mhmm. Interviewer: “Okay, so what year did you enlist?” (2:48) I enlisted in 2005, two years after high school. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was boot camp like?” It was interesting, it was very active, it was very stressful, I already had post-traumatic stress disorder without realizing it so the yelling was not very well received by me, but I did my best to kind of, you know bite down and keep going. So that was actually more stressful than anything else, I didn’t mind the physical aspect at all because I was already running a lot beforehand, the push-ups obviously were difficult and I ate so much food and lost weight. I kept having to tighten up my shorts because we were moving all the time, you know got shin splints from running in boots, the little shin high boot, we didn’t even have the big combat boots yet. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “Yeah, so after boot camp where’d you go?” I went to the Presidio of Monterey, the Defense Language Institute, to learn Korean. Interviewer: “Okay and did you- when you signed up did they tell you you were gonna be a linguist or did they kind of spring it on you?” I told them I wanted to be a linguist, so I took the D-lab, the Defense Language Aptitude Battery Test and got- scored really high on it, I got a 140 out of 140 on that particular test, and so they didn’t have any spots so- but I was delayed entry so we had me sign up as a sonar tech just in case, and then within a month I was signing a new contract to be a linguist. Interviewer: “Okay, and you were a Korean linguist?” Yes. Interviewer: “How long did that school take?” (4:30) That one was…the schooling itself was a year and a half but I was there for two years because I had to wait for the class to start. Interviewer: “Okay, so that was quite a long time.” Yeah I was in a school for way longer than a lot of people. Interviewer: “How was that though?” It was kind of awesome, it was stressful because you know, there’s a lot of aspects of military that aren’t so great, but I loved learning the language, I loved making friends, I loved being able to explore Monterey, and it was very interesting I’d wake up- I used to live in, when I lived in �McCarthy, Stacie the barracks on, at DLI we used to- I’d come out and the seals would be arf-ing away down at the bay, you could hear them all the way up the hill. Interviewer: “So what didn’t you like if you don’t mind me asking?” There were certain chiefs and petty officers who were- they were a little overzealous and some of their approaches they didn’t- they weren’t very human, if you know what I mean. Interviewer: “Kind of like ‘Do this-Do that be on time all the time I don’t care’ that sort of thing?” Yeah exactly, they weren’t as open, they were more intimidating. When I went- actually after a stint in Hawaii as a Korean linguist I went back there as a second class petty officer for Tagalog, and that one was a little more fun because I lived off post, I had a car, but we had a really crappy chief and I was a junior, or an assistant leading petty officer so that was kind of a nightmare but the class part was great. Interviewer: “Okay, so we jumped a little bit ahead-” Yes we did, sorry about that. Interviewer: “So let’s swing back, after your first stint in DLI that was two years you learned Korean. Are you fluent in Korean or?” (6:25) I wish, I was proficient to a point, I have lost a lot of that skill but I can retain it- I can regain it. It’s not completely lost. I still have study materials at home if I wanted to pick it back up, I know the basics so I can jump right back in. Interviewer: “Did they teach you just like, how to actually speak Korean or is it just interpreting certain things?” �McCarthy, Stacie Well they taught us how to actually speak Korean from introductions to- and ordering food all the way to discussing news items and complex thoughts. They wanted us, the highest level they were aiming for was a three which is discussing opinions and etc. Interviewer: “Okay so after that you went to Hawaii?” Yes. Interviewer: “That was your first duty station.” (7:18) That was my first duty station. Interviewer: “What was that like?” It was awesome, before I got a car it was kind of horrendous, because I always had to ask people for rides to work because we didn’t have a busing system or anything like that, and I was fiercely independent so it was really hard for me to ask for things. So I finally got my license and moved off post because I was a third class and they didn’t want us in the barracks because they were kind of overflowing, but the training was cool, getting the security clearance was really easy and I got in- Well, easy for me, no issues, but we, we started to learn our job and it was discouraging at first cause my job didn’t 100% involve language. So I was really frustrated but after a while I got into the groove of things, I bonded with my coworkers, I enjoyed Hawaii and started training par corps towards the end of my enlistment, my first enlistment. Interviewer: “Yeah, so what was your job, can you talk about that?” I was an analyst. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were just listening to things and interpreting them?” It was more of a- It was more of analyzing traffic. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “Okay, okay so just like a flow of information?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and were you working out of Pearl Harbor?” At first I was working out of, what did we call it, it wasn’t NC time it was…the tunnel. Interviewer: “Yeah the little offshoot.” Yeah it was the original NSA building there and we were, we were joint we worked with everybody, worked with civilians, we worked with Navy, Army, Air Force, Coast Guard. Interviewer: “Okay, and you just did your- how many years were you there?” (9:15) I was there for three years. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you reenlisted after that?” I did because I didn’t know what the heck I wanted to do, after that first enlistment realized I needed more time and I wanted to go back to California, and actually return to Hawaii so I- They said “Okay well you have a choice between Indonesian and Tagalog” and I’m like “Oh well they both sound great.” They said “Well we got a Tagalog class starting now or around this time.” I said, “That’s perfect.” and the chief was funny he goes “You know you’re gonna come back to Hawaii right?” As if I didn’t want to come back. Interviewer: “Right cause why would you want to come back to Hawaii?” Why would I- Well there were a lot of people who hated it there but I never understood it I always, I never had an issue with the people in Hawaii. So, and I absolutely loved going to the �McCarthy, Stacie beach at any time of the year when I had time. Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s the best part about Hawaii. So you learn Tagalog, that’s the language of which country?” The Philippines, it’s the main official dialect. Interviewer: “Okay, was that harder or easier than Korean?” It was harder for me to speak because there’s a lot of conjugations but it was easier to learn and it’s easier to understand because it was a bit simpler. It had some roots in Spanish because of the Spanish occupation of the Philippines, so that was helpful too. Interviewer: “Okay and after- how long was that?” (10:40) That was just a year. Interviewer: “Okay, so not as intensive as Korean.” No, I mean they were both- it was six to seven hours a day, five days a week, plus homework and speaking. We had a lot more fun though because I was less scared. Interviewer: “I mean it’s basically you’re cramming four years of language study into a one or two year span right?” Exactly, it's like drinking from a fire hose. Interviewer: “Yep.” Learning how to talk. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “So you have immersion training after each of those stints at school right?” We have immersion training during those stints. We had like many immersions where we would take everyone to Fort Ord and we’d spend the night, and we’d have like this whole couple days of just straight up nothing but that language, and the Tagalog immersion wasn’t quite as extensive as the Korean immersion but- So that was just a full day but it was funny because ourwhat was she, our department head was a Korean woman and she was also a Korean teacher at one point and she knew that I was also a linguist in Korean, and so when I was working with her on this one thing she had me translate between Filipino- or Tagalog, and Korean which was a lot of fun. It was hard but it was a lot of fun. Interviewer: “Yeah because you’re going from Korean to English to Tagalog to English to Korean right?” Exactly because- and that’s not how you’re supposed to think about it but that’s still how you think about it because I was in my mid 20’s. I understand when you’re children, it’s a lot easier to just absorb them as if it’s just another way of speaking, it’s harder to do that when you’re an adult. Interviewer: “Did you notice a lot of your classmates struggling with language?” (12:29) I mean we all struggled, most of us- in my Tagalog class most of us excelled, we were very apt. In Korean it was a little more difficult, I had a speaking partner in class at one point who just stared at me when I said something in Korean and then it would just make me like exhausted and frustrated because I wasn’t getting anything out of working with them. Like dude come on, help me out here. Interviewer: That’s funny. Say something simple. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: So, they sent you to Korea after your Korean class right?” No. Interviewer: “Was that during?” There was an opportunity but I didn’t take it because I was an idiot at the time, I was a young woman in love with an idiot. So I’m like “No I don’t wanna go.” cause I don’t wanna be away from him that much you know that long, it was stupid, but when I was stationed in Hawaii I got to go to Seoul for a refresher course where I studied at Kyung Hee University, and it was so cool. Interviewer: “How far into your first tour was that?” That was towards the end of my first tour, that was my last language training before I took the last D.L.P.T Defense Language Proficiency Test and because I went to Korea I did really well. Interviewer: “Okay, what was that like going to Korea?” (13:53) It was cool, I mean I could read everything even if I didn’t understand everything so I was able to ask “Hey what does this mean?” There were- There was Dunkin’ Donuts everywhere. Interviewer: “That’s really weird.” I know, but they had these really cool, they had really cool stuff that you didn’t really have here like lentil filled croquettes and all that, it was actually kind of awesome. Interviewer: “I’m sorry that sounds terrible.” It sounds- you know I’m a weirdo with- I’m a big foodie so almost anything sounds good to me but, I would take the subway and or the bus, or walk, there was a lot of that. During off time I just- a lot of the time I just went off on my own and explored. Sometimes went with friends to �McCarthy, Stacie see some movies, friends that I came with, and we did- I went to the spa a lot because it’s really cheap. You could just go in there and you hang out in the hot tubs, maybe get a body scrub or a massage, and it was perfect because it was winter, it was cold as heck. So I went there a lot. Interviewer: “That’s pretty cool.” And then the school itself was- it was intense because you only spoke Korean. I was in a class by myself with all these people from other countries who did not speak English. One of us knew English, so she was actually pretty awesome, well she was awesome anyway but it sucked because I was- I made friends with these classmates but couldn’t maintain a relationship with them without having to declare it and it was really difficult so I had- I basically cut ties cause someone freaked me out about it they’re like “Oh you’re gonna lose your clearance.” and I’m like, it’s just easy for me to make friends. Interviewer: “So how long were you in Seoul?” (15:44) Six weeks. Interviewer: “Okay so month and a half that sounds.” Yep, I stayed in a dormitory with a heated floor. Interviewer: “Oh, a heated floor.” That was the heat and it actually kept the room really warm, and you had slippers for this- the bathroom was this- there was a glass wall or what not like a shower wall, and you had your toilet and sink and everything and then the showerhead was right there. So, and they expected us to clean, you know keep the place clean so when I cleaned it I just sprayed the whole bathroom down. Interviewer: “So the other people in your class, did they know you were military?” �McCarthy, Stacie No, they weren’t supposed to know, the only people who knew were the people I came with and we had a separate class in the afternoon that was just military topics. Interviewer: “Okay was that taught by-” That was taught by a Korean teacher, he’s a civilian but he knew, like the teachers were all in the know, but yeah we were supposed to kind of keep it quiet forInterviewer: “For obvious reasons.” Yeah. Interviewer: “You didn’t want people to know you were U.S military because then they’d be like, trying to follow you or get information or something, the paranoia.” (17:00) Exactly, that was the thing you never knew who is going to be that person, and I had classmates from Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, she was a, what they called a “kyo-po” she was ethnically Korean but she lived overseas, and she worked at the Seoul embassy. She was awesome, I loved Elena, I miss her. We had people from Japan and China, everyone was just really sweet so it was really hard to be suspicious. Interviewer: “Yeah. So, just so I got the timeline right, you went to Hawaii for three years, then you went to Korea for a month and a half.” Correct, Korea was during the three year stay. Interviewer: “And then from there you went back to Hawaii for a little bit, then you went back to Monterey to do Tagalog.” Yeah, yes. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “What happened after the Tagalog?” I went back to Hawaii for three and a half years and for a month out of that I was loaned out to a ship. Interviewer: “So what did you do in Hawaii the second time?” Pretty much the same thing except for in the beginning I was placed in the defense travel system portion of our command. I was the one in charge of getting sailors their government credit card accounts and making sure that their travel vouchers were good to go and all that fun stuff Interviewer: “And this was when you were back with Nyack naval information operations command.” (18:27) Yes they put me in direct support. Interviewer: “Okay and what is direct support?” These are sailors who are, they work intelligence but they are, they can be loaned out basically to the shore side like the national side in Hawaii, or out to ships. Interviewer: “Okay and for most of your time there you did the DTS and then you went to work-” I got hurt. Interviewer: “How’d you get hurt?” I got hit by a wave. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “How very naval of you.” I was on the beach and I was goofing off in the water and I got lifted up by a very big wave up at North Shore and it dislocated my knee, so I had to have a full patella reconstruction. They put me in the transient personnel unit on Pearl Harbor cause I wasn’t deployable, and when I was back from limited duty, even though I always had pain after that, they put me back in direct support but I didn’t get to go back to DTS. Which was something I knew like the back of my hand at that point, and so that was really frustrating because half the time we were either doing some dumb training or just sitting there bored out of our skulls cause we didn’t have a job to do, and I needed to be utilized. They sent me to the…what did we call it, they sent me to the watch a few times where you and I hung out quite a bit, worked together and I loved being there because I had something to do. Interviewer: “Yeah, and this was on NCTAMS, right?” Yes Interviewer: “Which is naval…it’s a big acronym.” (20:12) It is a big acronym and that was where the new NSA building was. Interviewer: “Naval something telecommunication and…we should’ve looked this up before this.” We really should have but it’s okay, they’ll understand it was, it was intelligence things. Interviewer: “It’s the second naval base on Hawaii.” Yeah, it is. Interviewer: “And you worked on the watch floor pretty much on and off for how long?” �McCarthy, Stacie Oh my goodness, a couple years, pretty sure. Yeah and they, during my last year they deployed me to the Shiloh. Interviewer: “Okay, and what is the Shiloh?” It’s a cruiser. Interviewer: “Okay and what did you do on the Shiloh?” (20:54) I read a lot. Interviewer: “Okay and you were off of South Korea right? But you never-” We met- I met them in Singapore and we just kind of cruised around the Pacific, and we docked in Singa- I know that’s not right, we docked in Korea and we docked in Japan which was kind of awesome. Interviewer: “Okay so you got to experience Korea one last time right?” Right, yeah, yep. I would love to go back for vacation if and when I have enough money. Interviewer: “So your second tour in Hawaii was a lot less eventful than your first one other than getting injured and sent to a boat for a little bit.” Yeah, although I did enjoy it a little more, except when in, you remember direct support, we had a couple leaders that weren’t really good at what they did and kind of made our lives miserable. Once I became a first class petty officer it was evident. Interviewer: “Yeah we had some truly terrible leaders, if you’re watching you know who you are.” �McCarthy, Stacie But we had really good leaders too. Interviewer: “That’s true.” There was a new master chief, I met him when he was a senior chief and I was first coming to Hawaii and a Korean linguist, and he messaged me on Facebook and said “What can I do to keep you in?” When I was getting out, I’m like “It’s already too late but thank you.” Interviewer: “So when did you rank up actually? When did you get third class?” (22:20) Third class…oh I got third class upon graduating Korean, that was the deal. Interviewer: “Okay so it’s an automatic thing.” Yeah it was an automatic thing. Now the second class I had to take a test, and first class I had to take a test and I ranked up to second class pretty quickly too. I was, I think I was a second class almost as soon as I got on the watch floor. Interviewer: “Okay, so that was during your first-” First yeahInterviewer: “Sorry, go.” They ranked us up really fast especially Korean linguists, we had like 100%Interviewer: “Rank up?” Yes, promotion. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you make first? Was that during your first tour?” No, it was during my second tour when I was coming back from the transient personnel unit. I was injured and becoming a first class. Interviewer: “That’s kind of funny. Why did they rank you up then?” Because I did well on the test and it was my turn. Interviewer: “Alright then.” It’s not- you know my injury wasn’t exactly, it wasn’t 100% my fault, but yeah of course some of our duties, being on the ship and having to run in formation and other things did aggravate the condition so. Interviewer: “So what made you get out?” (23:39) I was ready, I needed to move on, I wanted to go to music school and be a musician, and so I’m working on that. I was tired and yeah I needed to do something else, and I was already planning on getting out, I just didn’t get out as early as I initially planned. Interviewer: “Okay, and what’s life been like on the outside?” It’s been pretty awesome, I mean there’s a lot less undue stress. I mean I still get stressed out because school is a lot of work and life is- life can be pretty difficult. It’s expensive, I do miss that paycheck, and those allowances but- and I do miss some friends from, you know certain duty stations, and I miss having a guaranteed job, but overall I’m actually really happy with where it’s, where I’ve been lately. Interviewer: “Alright, have you maintained Tagalog at all? I know you said you didn’t do much with Korean but-” �McCarthy, Stacie Little bit, actually my Tagalog is not as good as my Korean. It doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily, although I can figure out what’s going on. Interviewer: “Okay, few more questions then we’ll get outta here. Has your military experience really affected you now that you’re out, like have you noticed anything like that?” Well, I feel like I have a higher work ethic in some cases, in others I stress certain things a lot less cause it’s not as big of a deal. When I first got out, I think the biggest part is addressing people who are higher ranking than you in the civilian world as far as jobs and school classes. It’s a lot different, it’s a lot more relaxed, I don’t have to be as formal. People used to laugh at me because I was so formal. It hasn’t been that hard of an adjustment. Interviewer: “Okay, knowing everything that you know now, would you do it again?” (25:55) Yeah, actually knowing everything that I know now I would’ve gotten, I would’ve gotten some psychiatric help for my PTSD and depression. Interviewer: “Okay, and in the future if you have a kid and they come to you and they say they want to join the military, what would you say?” Depending on the kid, which isn’t happening by the way, but if I were to be caring for a kid or anyone that came up to me I would look at who they are, what their disposition is, and advise based on that because it’s not for everybody. I mean I did well, I was frustrated a lot but I did well, and someone like me I would say “Hell yeah, go for it.” Interviewer: “Alright, so anything else you wanna talk about? Anything cool that happened that I missed?” �McCarthy, Stacie I don’t know, eh that’s not that cool. Nothing that cool happened after that. Interviewer: “Okay, well I guess that’s it for that.” Thank you very much. Interviewer: “Thank you.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McCarthyS2300V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McCarthy, Stacie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04 Title A name given to the resource McCarthy, Stacie (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Stacie McCarthy was born on March 10, 1985, in Framingham, Massachusetts, where she lived a normal suburban childhood. When her parents divorced, her father married her stepmother, who was in the Navy, and moved his family to Michigan. McCarthy was in her junior year of high school when she watched the televised 9/11 attacks on her school’s televisions. This influenced her later decision to join the Navy so that she could help protect people as well as escape a mundane life in Michigan. McCarthy enlisted into the Navy two years after graduating high school in 2005. Boot camp was very stressful and strenuous for her since she had preexisting Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, making the yelling and vocal discipline difficult for her. After Boot Camp, she chose to become a Navy linguist and attended the Defense Language Institute in the Presidio of Monterey to study Korean. For her first assignment, McCarthy was deployed to Hawaii for three years where she worked as an information analyst between all military branches and civilian society. While stationed in Hawaii, she attended Kyung Hee University for six weeks in South Korea for a refresher course in Korean. McCarthy then reenlisted since she was still unsure about the direction of her career. For her second assignment, she learned the Tagalog language, a prominent dialect in the Philippines, for deployment to Tegale, Indonesia, for a year. After her assignment in Tegale, she returned to Hawaii for three years where she worked as an analyst for the Navy’s Direct Support program. She was also briefly injured after being hit, ironically, by a strong wave while visiting the beach. During her last year of deployment, McCarthy was transferred to the naval cruiser USS Shiloh where she traveled around the Pacific, docking in various countries across Southeast Asia. When she made the decision to leave the service, McCarthy felt it was the appropriate time for her to move on and pursue a higher education in music performance. She enjoyed reentering civilian life, even though she missed her military friends, her assured employment, and consistent pay. Reflecting upon her military service, McCarthy believed the Navy installed in her a greater work ethic, ability to endure stress, and a recognition and respect of authority. She also concluded that she would join the service again if given the chance and would recommend entering the service to anyone able and willing to commit. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f8102e6706616e16bda56d9633165bf.pdf 7982921f1df87a8e863f93a3a89c28bf PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Richard McCarty (7:17) Background Information (00:35)    Before joining the Service he worked in the Printing department. (00:40) At the age of 21 Richard received his draft notice. (00:51) At the time of his draft, he was living in Grand Rapids Michigan. (00:54) Training (1:05)   The first days in the service were very exciting for Richard. (1:06) Richard attended basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri (1:34) Service (1:37)     After completing basic, Richard was assigned as a truck driver at Fort Leonard Wood (1:40) The men would wake up every morning and run. Because of the heat, the men were made to wake up an entire hour earlier (3 AM) to run. (2:00) Richard was to be sent to Korea, however was discharged and aloud to spend the remainder of his service in the National Guard. (3:39) The men had very little free time while in service. (4:11) Exiting Service (4:48)     Richard was very sick the day he was released from service. He was very happy to return home. (4:52) After being released, Richard served in the National Guard in Grand Rapids. (5:20) He did make some close friends while in the service. He is no longer in touch with them. (5:35) He is a member of the American Legion. (5:58) Documents (6:08)  Discharge papers. (6:39) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McCartyRT Title A name given to the resource McCarty, Richard (Interview outline), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McCarty, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard McCarty served in the U.S. Army during the Korean War (approx. 1951-1953). After completing his basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, he was employed as a truck driver on base. Richard was assigned to be sent to Korea but was discharged before being sent out. He served in the National Guard after completing his military service. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kimes, Nathan (Interviewer) McCarty, Richard (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. National Guard United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-09 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c56660a9eb8a7d887f15f336491eedf0.pdf f53b1917018691a2cc9335cc88ec4aa9 PDF Text Text Eight Area Residents Hailed In Holocaust Remembrance By Theresa D. McClellan Berendina Erlich, 62; was a young woman looking forward to marriage when she became involved in the Dutch resistance movement to help a Jewish co-worker living in the Hague. That was before her fiancee, Haans, was executed by the Gestapo for his resistance work. Erlich was among eight resisters from western Michigan honored Sunday by the state and the Men's Club of Congregation Ahavas Israel, 2727 Michigan St. NE, in commemoration of National Holocaust Remembrance Week. "My work was to get (phony identification) cards for my Jewish friends so they could move from different places," said Erlich, of 2610 Ramona St. SE "The Gestapo came to my parents' house every two to three weeks." Uke the other resisters, the slight greying woman credits her faith for keeping her active in tbe movement, despite the constant fear of being discovered. "I was terrible scared they would find out who I was, and as a young girl I was often disappointed in my Christian friends who had such little faith." Besides Erlich, others honored were Jan Dirkmaat, 181 Lantern Drive NW; Albert K. Flikkema, 1071 Village Lane, Jenison; Pieter N. and Adrianna Termaat, 1730 Westlane Drive NE; Johan Weerstra, Holland; Johannes Witte, 2216 Edgewood Ave. SE; and the late Marten Weestra, of Holland. The program also serves as a rebuttal to "revisionist historians" who claim the crimes against Jews during World War II never happened, said Professor Dwayne Cole of Grand Rapids Baptist College. "There are people out there who will believe what they want to · believe despite the facts. The horror is when our younger generations begin doubting this ever happened," said Cole. Witte remembered his Netherlands home as a land of freedom for everyone until "May 10, 1940 when the Germans entered our borders and forced our young people into the labor camps to be reeducated in the Nazi philosophy." The events of the Holocaust in which an estimated six million Jews were slaughtered are "bard to comprehend now, and were incomprehensible then," said Witte. "There were signs and rumors and even newspaper articles, but we could not comprehend such a thing." Even now it is difficult for Erlich and others to speak of the deaths without being visibly moved. "I just pray," said Erlich, "that we will never be subjected to that kind of horror, ever." Pieter N. Termaat Berendlna Erlich • This week's gathering in Washington, D.C., of an estimated 18,800 U.S. and Canadian survivors of Nazi death camps should serve as a reminder to the world that what happened during World War II can happen again, an !)rganizer says. Page SC. Johannes Witte � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_NWS_1983-Ahavas-award-345 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McClellan, Theresa D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1983 Title A name given to the resource Eight Area Residents Hailed in Holocaust Remembrance Description An account of the resource Newspaper clipping about members of the Dutch resistance movement living in Grand Rapids. Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands -- Awards Dutch Americans Dutch World War, 1939-1945 -- Netherlands World War, 1939-1945 -- Jews -- Rescue Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0db393dc3ccc4215e418ff7a51921646.m4v 4b2c4b159e958aa5d2c28b7edb324255 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5cd64fa81870e82212f9ae359c158be0.pdf 8a584d5eeb9f4417074466910f738023 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Kenneth McCloud World War II 59 minutes 55 seconds (00:00:18) Early Life -Born on May 5, 1920 in Tennessee -Grew up in Tennessee -Neighbor was Sergeant York -World War I hero -Means that Kenneth most likely lived and grew up in Pall Mall, Tennessee -Sergeant York served as the commander of the local Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) -Father was a teacher -Able to do it with a high school education -Mother had met his father in school -He had two brothers and three sisters -One brother was severely wounded in Germany during the war -Worked at the Oak Ridge Nuclear Plant after the war -Other brother served in the Air Force and made a career out of it -Ran an Air Force hotel in Libya until Gaddafi seized control -Father helped save his grandfather's farm -Never got paid back for that -Father had to stop teaching in 1935 because a college education became a requirement -State still granted him a pension -The Great Depression was horrible and many people were truly hungry -Father was seen as a leader in the community and helped whenever he could -Only man in town that had a high school education -Everyone went to him to resolve issues -Also worked as a justice of the peace and presided in a small claims court -Another neighbor became the Secretary of State during the war (00:10:38) Start of the War -Father kept up with news about the fighting in Europe and Asia -When Kenneth got out of high school he wanted to enlist in the Navy -Father advised him that the war would eventually come for him anyway -Father could see that a war was coming to the United States -Father got a weekly paper from Washington D.C. whick kept him up to date on current events -Working in Alcoa, Tennessee when he heard news about the attack on Pearl Harbor (00:13:10) Enlisting in the Army -Tried to get into the Army Air Force as a pilot, but he didn't have good enough depth perception -Enlisted in the Army on February 10, 1942 �-Placed in the Signal Corps because he had some electrical skills (00:14:27) Work with the Army Air Force Overseas -Went overseas with a P-38 unit -Had famed aces Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire and he knew both of them -Bong died after the war while testing flying the P-80 Shooting Star -McGuire died during the war over Negros Island -During the Battle of the Philippine Sea -Remembers when a plane crashed and destroyed a bunch of tents, but only the pilot died (00:16:30) Basic Training & Signal Corps Training -Went to Fort Oglethorpe for processing and induction -Note: In the interview Mr. McCloud says it is in Tennessee, but it is actually in Georgia -Stayed there for a week -Sent to Joplin, Missouri for basic training and Signal Corps training -Possibly Camp Crowder -Had trouble adjusting to the Army and got in trouble a lot -Punished with picking up and piling heavy rocks -Introduced to radar in Signal Corps training -Trained with older British radar -Learned how to plot targets and the location of friendly aircraft -Sent down to Florida for telephone training (00:21:40) Overseas Duty in the Pacific Theatre Pt. 1 -Took part in the liberation of the Philippines -Got deployed to New Guinea in late 1943 or early 1944 -Deployed with a signal unit -His duty was to maintain the generators used for radar -Went in once an area was secured, but not void of enemy forces -Flew from island to island via C-47 cargo planes -Helped transport jeeps -Could fit two jeeps on a C-47 -Had to make sure the jeeps were tied down or it would cause problems (00:24:32) Deployment to the Pacific Theatre -Went by ship to New Guinea -Took 21 days to reach New Guinea -Seas were rough at times -Got seasick on deployment and returning home -Sailed to New Guinea on the USS Carlisle -Had submarine alerts -One time it was only a whale -Always happened in the early morning -Did submarine drills almost every day -Sailed from San Francisco to New Caledonia to Australia then to Finschafen, New Guinea (00:27:08) Overseas Duty in the Pacific Theatre Pt. 2 -Stayed in Finschaefen, New Guinea until the invasion of Hollandia �-Spring of 1944 -Gradually pushing Japanese forces back toward Japan -Remembers flying down a valley on one island in a C-47 -Close enough to the ground that the Japanese could shoot at them with rifles -When they landed there were 45 holes in the plane -Made sure to get out of that valley in a hurry -Japanese were deeply entrenched on the islands, especially in New Guinea (00:29:53) Living Conditions Pt. 1 -Living conditions were pretty rough -A lot of times they would be in mud up to their knees -Remembers driving a jeep through mud and he started sinking -Mud went up to his waist -Australians and Americans pulled him out (00:31:21) Interactions with Australian Troops & Natives -Australians were good men -Only country he would ever want to move to because they were rugged like Americans -Had no contact with the natives in New Guinea (00:33:00) Combat in the Pacific -Japanese would attack their camps -Sneak in at night and slit a few soldiers' throats -Wake up in the morning and find the soldier next to you door -Demoralizing, but you had to keep going -Japanese forces would get pushed up into the hills -They would come out of the hills and harass American camps (00:34:42) Unit Assignments -Part of the 553d Signal Aircraft Warning Battalion -Eventually got reassigned to the 559th Signal Aircraft Warning Battalion (00:35:15) Overseas Duty in the Pacific Theatre Pt. 3 -From Finschaefen, New Guinea flew to Hollandia, New Guinea -Went there once an airstrip was secured -Had fighter escorts when they flew from one island to the next -Got to Hollandia in spring/summer 1944 after the initial invasion (00:37:14) Living Conditions Pt. 2 -Living conditions were slightly better in Hollandia, New Guinea -There was more material available in Hollandia -Never short on supplies -Anything they needed they could get -Got supplies shipped shipped from the U.S. via Australia -Realized that the U.S. has always been able to take care of itself (00:38:53) Liberation of the Philippines -Stayed in Hollandia for about six months then went to the Philippines -The worst fighting he saw was when the Japanese sent in paratroopers from Formosa (Taiwan) -Didn't know how to fight them -Marines were sent in to help fight off the paratroopers �-Captured a few and learned that it was a suicide mission -Didn't see many Japanese prisoners of war until they got to the Philippines -Most Japanese forces were killed in action though -Used the Japanese prisoners for manual labor -Treated with respect even though they were the enemy -Filipinos were scolded for spitting on Japanese prisoners -Stationed on Leyte in the Philippines -Remembers visiting BayBay, Leyte -Nice place that had restaurants and hadn't been damaged by the Japanese -Transported Filipino civilians -Relationship between Filipinos and Americans was good -Still has a lot of respect for the Filipinos -Especially after everything they endured under Japanese rule -Got to the Philippines in November 1944 shortly after the invasion of the Philippines in October -Transported jeeps from New Guinea to the Philippines -Stayed in the Philippines until the end of the war (00:47:42) Occupation Duty in Japan -Sent to Japan for occupation duty in Osaka -Had to use pontoon bridges to transport vehicles from ship to shore -Then had to drive over a mountain to Osaka -Japanese civilians never attacked American soldiers -Treated American soldiers with deference and honored a conqueror -There were miles of rubble in Osaka -Industrial sectors were destroyed, but residential areas were (mostly) spared -Got to visit Kobe and Tokyo -Stayed in Japan for only five weeks -Means that he probably got to Japan in October 1945 (00:53:06) Coming Home & End of Service -Went to Yokohama for a week then boarded the SS Ernie Pyle -Sailed home with some of the men that had been with Ernie Pyle when he was killed -Seas were rough on the way home -Felt like riding an elevator -Had Thanksgiving Dinner 1945 on the way back to the U.S. -Didn't get seasick until the man next to him threw up at dinner -Pulled into Seattle in late November/early December 1945 -Sent to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas -Stayed there for a week -Got discharged on December 15, 1945 -Got home in time to celebrate Christmas 1945 with his wife -Married for more than 70 years Interview Ends at 00:59:55 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_McCloudK1760V Title A name given to the resource McCloud, Kenneth Edward (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-05 Description An account of the resource Kenneth McCloud was born on May 5, 1920 in Tennessee. On February 10, 1942 he enlisted in the Army and was placed in the Signal Corps. He was processed and inducted at Fort Oglethorpe then went to Joplin, Missouri (most likely Camp Crowder) for basic training and signal training. He was deployed to the Pacific Theatre in either late 1943, or early 1944, and was sent to Finschaefen, New Guinea. He stayed at Finschafen until spring 1944 following the invasion of Hollandia. During his time in the Pacific he was part of the 553rd Signal Aircraft Warning Battalion and later the 559th Signal Aircraft Warning Battalion and his duty was to maintain the generators used for radar installations. In November 1944 he was sent to the Philippines and was stationed on the island of Leyte until the end of the war. Following Japan's surrender in August 1945 he was sent to Osaka, Japan for occupation duty (most likely in late September/October 1945). He stayed in Japan for five weeks then returned to the United States. He was sent to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas and was discharged on December 15, 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McCloud, Kenneth Edward Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jones, Adam (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf