459 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/403f8b82f3eb268e1be15d85d47d7fe6.mp4 529de23af154d2e9d46a241ccd907925 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3df6684853f99fed74927c775e12a47.pdf 642cd80816b589b7729d147ad3097134 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II - WAV Merle Knight Length of Interview: 13:38 (00:10) BS: My name is Brittany Steffans and I’ll be the interviewer and recording is Holly Strong. Mrs. Knight is 81 years old, having been born on April 14, 1923. (00:33) BS: Please state for the recording what war and branch of service you served in. What was your rank and where did you serve? MK: I took my boot camp at New York City, at Hunter College. I lived on about the sixth floor. I have to tell you something a little bit funny. I never ate breakfast, so when I got there, I wasn’t going to eat breakfast either. That’s not the way it works. You march to breakfast, whether you eat or not. Now I forgot the next question. After that, I went to Cecil Field, in Florida. And later on I went to Banana River, also in Florida. There both south of Jacksonville. BS: Umm, what war and branch of service did you serve in? MK: That was World War II and I was a Navy WAV. BS: Can you state what WAV means? (01:30) MK: Women Accepted for Voluntary Service. BS: What was your rank? MK: I ended up Seaman First Class. BS: Were you drafted or did you enlist? MK: I enlisted. BS: Why did you join? MK: Oh…they took my husband. To-be husband, was drafted. My brother was gone. Maybe I had to find myself. BS: Why did you pick the service branch you joined? MK: Navy blue. (laughs) I didn’t like the WACs color. �BS: Oh, okay. Do you have any experiences from boot camp that you remember? Or training? Other than the breakfast. (02:32) MK: Oh, we got to go into New York City and see things. I’d never been to New York before. Statue of Liberty, all those kind of things. And then before I was sent down to Florida, I got to work in the Officer’s mess hall and I thought that was kind of interesting. BS: What was your job assignment? MK: That’s what this little book is sitting here for. (Picks up hardback book.) When I went to Cecile Field, umm, I logged in pilot flight time. And every pilot had one of these. And when they came to our office, they had to tell us what plane they were taking and we had to log in what time it was. And then they took the plane, and when they come back, they had to come back to our office and log back out. And there were some that didn’t come back. And that’s how we knew. I don’t have flight time in mine, so I ended up using mine as a joke book. I have a little bit of flight time in there. I got to fly. I didn’t fly the plane. (04:04) BS: Oh. Can you tell me a couple of your most memorable experiences during the war? MK: Belonging to the Fast-Bit softball team, probably was my most fun. BS: Were you awarded any medals or salutations? MK: After playing ball, I was awarded a silver baseball. It’s hanging up there. (Points) From Admiral Kincaid. BS: How’d you get it? MK: Well, that was from playing baseball. BS: Did you stay in touch with your family while you were in Florida? MK: Writing letters. I never made phone calls. (05:01) BS: What was the food like, while you were there? MK: (shrugs) It must have been all right. I gained a few pounds. BS: Did you feel any pressure or stress while you were in the service? MK: I don’t think so. �BS: How did you entertain yourself? Other than baseball. What did you do for fun? MK: Well, I was in a room with about ten girls. And it wasn’t hard to find entertainment with ten girls back there. (laughs) You could go off base, if you had liberty. And we used to go out and run an obstacle course. BS: Do you recall anything humorous or unusual events that happened? MK: Well, I went off base once, without liberty. I got caught. And I had to clean…I cleaned the biggest linen closet you’ve ever seen. (laughs) That was my punishment. But, you know, I’ve always remembered that. (06:35) BS: Did you and your friends ever pull pranks on others? MK: On April Fool’s Day, I did. I got them all up too early. Told ‘em it was six o’clock and it was five o’clock. And…they threw me in the shower. (Laughs) BS: Can you show us what some of your photographs are here? MK: (Holds up class photo) This was taken, I think, right after we got to New York. And this one (holds up another photo or women lined up) was at Cecile Field. And it was, I think, most of those girls I roomed with, in one room. BS: How big was the room? Was it… (07:24) MK: It was big. (Looks at photo) Some of them left and went to smaller rooms, which they were allowed to do. BS: What about this one? (Hands MK a photo) MK: This was taken just when we went on liberty, in Jacksonville, Florida. We went to St. Augustine, a few other places. BS: What did you think of officers’ or your fellow soldiers? MK: Well, the only trouble I ever got into was when I went off base and I wasn’t supposed to. (laughs) BS: Do you recall the day of your service ending? (08:20) MK: Hmmm. Well, I was discharged at Miami, Florida. That’s probably all I remember. And then I got on a train. You know, we didn’t get to fly on a plane. We had to ride the train. And I guess I came home. �BS: What did you do in the days and weeks afterwards, after you were out of the service? MK: Probably went back to roller-skating. We roller-skated at North Lake. That has since burned down. And then tried to find a job. BS: Did you make any close friendships while you were in the service? MK: Yes. I still write to four or five of the girls. Of course, some of them have died. (09:24) BS: Did you join a veterans organization? MK: No, I never did that. BS: What did you go on to do as a career after the war? MK: I got married the same…a few months after I got home. My career was five kids. BS: Did your military experience influence your thinking about the war in general? (10:24) MK: This war right now. We’re both against it. BS: Do you attend any reunions? MK: No. I don’t know why…I don’t know why our outfit never got together. BS: How did your service and experience affect your life? MK: I learned discipline. Probably helped me a lot in training my kids. (11:11) BS: Is there anything you’d like to add that we didn’t cover in the interview? MK: I was thinking about this a lot before you came, but you gave me some questions there I wasn’t thinking on. (laughs) BS: So how old were you when you enlisted? MK: I was twenty-one. BS: And you weren’t married at the time, right? MK: No. �BS: Your husband was drafted, correct? MK: Yeah, he was drafted. BS: So you didn’t see each other. MK: No. We never saw each other for nearly three years. BS: Was that hard? (11:53) MK: It was probably harder on him than me, because where I was a little more fun. And no fighting. BS: So you didn’t see any combat while you were in the service? MK: No. No. BS: How long were you in? MK: I was in a year and a half. I would have stayed in longer. A bunch of us girls were going up for assignments, and we were going to take one more assignment and then we were going to go to Pearl Harbor. And then the war ended. And we would have had to stay in at least another six months. So we all gave up on that. Since then, maybe I’ve regretted that a little bit. (Laughs) (12:43) BS: So how long was it between when your husband to be was drafted and the point when you decided to enlist? MK: That was probably a year and a half. BS: So if you had the opportunity to enlist back then, would you have done it? Gone back to war. MK: Yes. I would have recommended it to most girls. Unless they have to go over there and fight, like what’s going on now. That I don’t agree with. BS: Is there anything you’d like to add that we have not covered? MK: Not that I can think of. But those were nice, fun days that I had. And I enjoyed it. BS: Thank you. (13:38) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KnightM Title A name given to the resource Knight, Merle (Interview transcript and video), 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knight, Merle Description An account of the resource Merle Knight served in the Navy WAVES during World War II. She was a volunteer who spent all her time on the East Coast of the US, primarily at a naval air station. Although she wanted to go to serve in Pearl Harbor, she would change her mind due to the war ending Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Steffens, Brittney (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Naval Reserve. Women's Reserve Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-04-12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/02a33e0d11e84786e6917df5db6fc1c5.m4v 762eadfcb326f7151fc7716b6e34ee14 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fd690ff8c4fbe94b316a094a290317f9.pdf 78c9a96e40294955733a5f7f93d6fc52 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Robert Knight Cold War-Post Korean War 1 hour 1 minutes 32 seconds (00:01:50) Early Life Pt. 1 -Born in Decatur, Michigan on March 28, 1933 -Ancestors settled in Decatur in 1828 (00:02:08) Service in the Air Force -Enlisted in the Air Force -Discharged from the Air Force with the rank of staff sergeant (00:02:22) Grand Rapids Home for Veterans -Resident at the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Arrived three months prior to the interview date -Doesn't enjoy living there -Nothing in common with the other residents (00:03:10) Early Life Pt. 2 -Went to school in Decatur -Started school in 1939 -Father owned and operated the family's 2,000 acre farm -Father came from a wealthy family -Lost a lot of money during the Great Depression and people asking for money -Farm buildings are still standing as of interview date (2016) -Father studied at an older college in the eastern United States -Also studied at the University of Notre Dame -Graduated from high school in June 1951 -After high school he worked in Kalamazoo, Michigan at the Gilmore Brothers Department Store -Worked there for one year -Moved to Chicago to learn how to asses antique pewter and silver items for Marshall Field & Co. -Worked as an assistant buyer of antiques -Did it because it interested him and he enjoyed the work despite it not paying well (00:06:56) Life after Service Pt. 1 -Managed contracts for Loyola University -Did that for ten years after the Air Force -Mostly did grants for the medical school (00:07:33) Enlisting in the Air Force -Enlisted in the Air Force on March 3, 1953 -Didn't want to be drafted into the Army (00:08:05) Basic Training -Sent to Sampson Air Force Base for basic training -Near Geneva, New York -No heat in the barracks, so it was very cold -Base was located on Seneca Lake -Didn't enjoy the military very much, but would rather be in the Air Force than the Army -Recruits came from all over the United States, but most were from the Midwest -Most of the training instructors (Air Force equivalent of drill sergeant) were good men -Remembers one TI that he didn't like �-Rural background, uneducated, and generally unlikable -Basic training lasted eight weeks (00�:10:26) Technical School -Sent to technical school at Francis E. Warren Air Force Base near Cheyenne, Wyoming -Old base built in 1867 -Quartered in some of the original buildings -Trained there for two or three months -Studied property accounting and material services for the Air Force (00:11:40) Joining the 1st Pilotless Bomber Squadron -Sent to Patrick Air Force Base, Florida to train with a guided-missile unit -Stationed there until he was deployed to West Germany -Unit size was 600 men -He was part of the 1st Pilotless Bomber Squadron -Later attached to the 36th Fighter-Bomber Wing (00:13:29) Stationed at Bitburg Air Base Pt. 1 -Deployed to Bitburg Air Base, West Germany in March 1954 -Near the ancient city of Trier -Located in western Germany -Known for wine making (00:14:58) Promotions in the Air Force -1st Pilotless Bomber Squadron was relatively new which led to easy promotions -Quickly ascended through the ranks -At the end of his enlistment he was offered a $2,000 reenlistment bonus -Declined because he had no interest in staying in the Air Force (00:15:40) Stationed at Bitburg Air Base Pt. 2 -He worked in the supply section -Ordered supplies, parts, and equipments for the squadron -Had a manual to go by for ordering materiel -Squadron had B-61A Matador missiles -Stationed at Bitburg Air Base for two and a half years (00:16:38) Travel in Europe -Traveled all over West Germany -Met some interesting people and old German families -Old aristocratic families -Had never seen extravagant houses like that -Befriended some family members from the von dder Marwitz noble family -Often a guest at their home on the Rhine River -Learned that members of the old aristocracy hadn't had to fight in World War II -Visited family friends and relatives that lived in a suburb of Copenhagen -Part of an Air Force program called, “Meet the Danes” -Danes had wonderful food and wine -Stayed with the Bjerregaard family that was from Jutland, Denmark -Wife of the family was an accomplished pianist -Family had served as part of the Danish Resistance -Spied against the German occupation forces -Lived in a small house -Good gardeners and cooks -Spent every major holiday with them and bought presents for the children -Learned about the ancient Norse mythology �-Visited Rome with a priest who served as a courier to the Vatican -Spent two weeks in Rome and ate his dinners in fine restaurants (00:24:54) Maneuvers -Went on maneuvers while at Bitburg Air Base -Enjoyed the rations until he got sick on them -Went on maneuvers around Bitburg -Had gone on maneuvers in the United States, so it didn't come as a shock to him (00:25:35) Deployment to Germany -Sailed to West Germany on the USS General Harry Taylor -Troop transport -In service until 1993 -High waves meant they had to stay inside the ship, or risk getting swept overboard -Had to hold onto food trays, or risk losing your food during a meal -Had to find something to hold onto while taking a shower, or risk falling onto the tile -Took nine or ten days to cross the Atlantic Ocean -High winds during the voyage (00:27:50) Stationed at Bitburg Air Base Pt. 3 -Bitburg had been the location of a German base from World War II -Quartered in one of the barracks -Across from the base chapel and it was a good, clean building -Base was expanded during his time there -Squadron grew from 600 men to 1,000 men (00:29:13) Missile Testing in Libya -Tested missiles in the Sahara Desert -Remembers going swimming in the morning before it got too hot in the afternoon -Squadron asked for volunteers to go to Libya and he decided to go -Sent to Tripoli -Very old city -Forbidden to go into certain parts of the city -Went anyway out of curiosity -Arabs were friendly people, but easily offended -Operated out of Wheelus Air Base (now Mitiga International Airport) -Former Italian air base called Mellaha Air Base, used by the Luftwaffe in World War II -Had problems with Libyans sneaking onto the base and stealing supplies -Stationed in Libya for one month -Made sure the unit had enough supplies for missile testing -Ordered parts while at Bitburg -Parts had to be shipped over from the United States (00:34:13) Food -Had some German food served at the mess hall in Bitburg Air Base -Allowed to go into Bitburg to eat -Tried Bitburger Premium Pils beer -Food at the mess hall was pretty good -Had German cooks and some could speak English (00:35:50) German Civilians Pt. 1 -German women gravitated toward American servicemen and saw them as potential husbands -Some German women served as informants for the German government -Most German civilians didn't express negative opinions about the U.S. to American servicemen -Remembers going into a bar patronized by Germany Army veterans �-Not friendly and didn't go back -Bitburg had been frequented by Nazi officials during the Second World War -There were some people in Bitburg that still had sympathies for the Nazi regime -Predominantly Catholic population in Bitburg (00:38:33) Commendations -Awarded the Good Conduct Medal -Awarded the Army of Occupation Medal (00:39:05) Cold War Politics -Some German women worked as informants for the East German government -Tried to get American servicemen to tell secrets -Bitburg Air Base was in far western Germany near Luxembourg -Distant from Berlin and relatively removed from Cold War issues on the border (00:40:05) Contact with Home -Wrote to his mother -Father was dead by then -Wrote to friends from high school -Communicated by way of letters because they were virtually free -Could call home, but it cost money, and he enjoyed writing letters -Wasn't too bothered about being away from home -Enjoyed seeing the places where his family came from (00:41:17) Prostitution Pt. 1 -Luxembourg was popular with servicemen due to prostitution -Some prostitutes in Bitburg also worked as informants -Shunned by the community (00:42:13) Downtime in Bitburg -Spent time at the Non-commissioned Officers' Club -Had excellent food, beer, and wine -Better than the Officers' Club -Excellent wine country in Bitburg -A lot of white wine due to red wine required a lot of sunlight (00:44:20) Prostitution Pt. 2 -Other airmen invited him to Luxembourg -He went a few times, but wanted to save his money and didn't like the idea of paying for sex (00:44:59) Fellow Airmen -One of his bunk mates was from the American South -Had a few girlfriends in Luxembourg -Another one of his bunk mates had a Luxembourgian girlfriend, but was married -Non-commissioned officers were allowed to have alcohol in their barracks -He kept a case of beer under his bed and had a beer when he got up in the morning -Good man despite some of his dysfunctions -Remembers his third bunk mate was nicknamed, “Peanuts” (00:47:17) German Civilians Pt. 2 -Had a girlfriend who was from East Berlin -Frowned upon by the Air Force -Maternal grandmother was from Germany -Learned how to speak High German through her -Impressed and surprised Germans with his fluency in German (00:49:44) End of Service & Coming Home -Left as individuals according to their enlistment length �-Got discharged early and was home in time for Christmas 1956 -Left Bitburg Air Base and was discharged in New York in December 1956 (00:50:45) Life after Service Pt. 2 -Returned to Decatur, Michigan -Studied at Michigan State University for two years -Excelled in languages and social studies, but disliked complex mathematics -Majored in language and literature -Studied at the Chicago Academy of Fine Arts -Went back to work for Marshall Field & Company as an assistant buyer -Did it because he enjoyed the work -Worked at the Michigan Avenue store in downtown Chicago -Remembers a work was stealing from the company and selling it to another business -Robert discovered a secret set of duplicate keys -Man had worked for Marshall Field & Co. for a long time -Ultimately got fired, but was not arrested -Worked at Morningside Antiques in Santa Fe, New Mexico -Helped them get organized -Worked for them for several years after leaving Chicago � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KnightR1937V Title A name given to the resource Knight, Robert James (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-31 Description An account of the resource Robert Knight was born in Decatur, Michigan on March 28, 1933. He enlisted in the Air Force on March 3, 1953 and received his basic training at Sampson Air Force Base, New York. He received property accounting and material services training at Francis E. Warren Air Force Base, Wyoming and then went on to Patrick Air Force Base, Florida where he was assigned to the 1st Pilotless Bomber Squadron. The squadron was attached to the 36th Fighter-Bomber Wing and was deployed to Bitburg Air Base, West Germany, in March 1954. He worked in the supply section at the base, went on maneuvers, and went to Wheelus Air Base, Libya for missile testing in the Sahara Desert. He left Bitburg Air Base in December 1956 and was discharged in New York in that same month. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knight, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erichsen, Wallace (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0590079a3205c6043b946afdacf3a54f.jpg 89d91429c4c334e27c42fa0f89ec5e0c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KniskernJan Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Kniskern, Jan Description An account of the resource Jan Kniskern, Nursing Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8806f856313d3d98a2501587b4b8d4ce.pdf 0f970b53a9876e83251cf79df529af03 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Andrew Knott Cold War 10 minutes 25 seconds (00:00:05) -Born on September 5th, 1940 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. -Served in the US Army during the Vietnam War. -Highest rank achieved of E4. -Four siblings in their family. -His father was a carpet installer, and his mother was a housewife. -What was it like growing up during World War II? -Remembers his uncles coming home on leave from World War II. -Recalls the lack of bubble gum due to sugar rations. -Reusing tin cans etc. -A lot of displaced people in the area from the Netherlands. -The Berlin Wall was built around when he was 20. -Drafted in July, 1961. -Sent to Fort Knox for basic training. -Next sent to Fort Carson, Colorado. -Intended to be trained for 105 artillery. -He was given the role of a cook. -He was given a status with a “permanent pass”. -When the 5th infantry Division was reactivated he was sent to Headquarters Company as a cook. (5:00) -As a cook they worked with every other weekend off. -Their group went on maneuvers as well. -Swift Strike was one such maneuver in North/South Carolina. -There for a month. -Later they were on the way to California for a maneuver when the Cuban Missile Crisis made them return to base. -Their supply sergeant returned from Saigon, Vietnam as the Vietnam War was about to begin. -He is classified with the V.A. as a Vietnam veteran, however he was in the military for only the beginning of Vietnam Era. -Some duties: washing pots and pans, cooking for the generals. Orderlies would serve. -Used a truck with an electric refrigerator and propane stove thanks to the abundance of electric generators on base. -Generals were not hard to get along with. -Left the military in July, 1963 not long before the Kennedy assassination. -At Fort Carson they were building NORAD nearby at the time. -After leaving the service he worked selling/installing carpet. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KnottA1818V Title A name given to the resource Knott, Andrew Thomas (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-23 Description An account of the resource Andrew Knott was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on September 5th, 1940. In July of 1961 he was drafted in the period just before the Vietnam War. Entering the Army, he was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training and Fort Carson, Colorado for artillery training. In the 5th Infantry Division he was a cook. In his time in the military he went on several maneuvers and experienced the threat of the Cuban Missile Crisis. In July 1963 he was discharged and left the military. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knott, Andrew Thomas Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Knott, Jonathan (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5c2c19f411b6c29f0156cc8d4beb548.jpg 51aefec658353ccc0b1c7dfdd5b09e5b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Red-Misc-70 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1966 Title A name given to the resource Kodacolor Print Red Barn Theatre Description An account of the resource A photograph of the Red Barn Theatre that has extensive visual distortion. On the side, there is a Kodacolor Print stamp and along the bottom of the photo, the Kodak Safety Film number is listed. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Community theater Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file collected by the Kutsche Office of Local History from the Saugatuck Douglas History Center for the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/416d3bc4fd334c9a2d18d3124f592577.jpg d993afd2067f774a5ef3f5fd8d661e41 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KoedootHerbert Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Koedoot, Herbert Description An account of the resource Herbert Koedoot, Business Admin Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04bd778bf8d3ffa35b076661b707433f.mp4 5c35bf301a3d884b94747080ecb258d9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01002baffc3296bcd24735a65601216c.pdf 787386436d37731f17e40e9ec600193a PDF Text Text Koehl, Phil Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Era Interviewee’s Name: Phil Koehl Length of Interview: (56:37) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Phil Koehl of Hoffman Estates, Illinois. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Phil, to begin with give us some background on yourself. Start out [with] where and when were you born?” I was born in Oak Park, Illinois in 1953. The only reason it was Oak Park–– I lived in Chicago–– was because the hospital was across the street from Chicago. Interviewer: “Now, did you grow up in Chicago or did you move around?” Yeah, in Chicago. The Northwest side. Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living when you were a kid?” My dad was a truck driver. Then, my parents got divorced and my stepfather was a carpenter. Then, eventually my mother bought a pet store so I got a job at the pet store. Interviewer: “Was your dad in the service in World War II?” No, after that I think. I’m not very good at this. Interviewer: “Because you have an interesting picture of it––” Yes. He was in Malta and it had to be in the 40s. So, yeah I guess at the end of World War II. He got injured and Princess Elizabeth, at that point, visited him in the hospital. Interviewer: “That might possibly have been a little bit after the war ended–– or at least when it got safe to go travel down the Mediterranean for her.” �I think so, yeah. Interviewer: “That’s a little bit unusual there. Where did you go to high school?” I went to Lane Tech High School. 5,000 guys. My class was 1,100. People who went to Lane go, “I had a dad who went to Lane. Did you know him?” I’m like, “I got 1,100 guys in my class. I didn’t even know all of them.” (1:54). Interviewer: “What year did you graduate?” 1971. Interviewer: “So you’re in high school while the Vietnam War is sort of ebbing and flowing a little bit. How aware were you of all that?” Very aware because I was in ROTC in high school. It was very odd–– every Wednesday we had uniform inspections, so we had to wear our uniform on the bus, all the way to school, and it was very odd. Interviewer: “What kind of responses do you get on the bus or elsewhere?” Both positive and negative. You know, some people were like, “Good for you.” Other people were like, “Baby killer.” It’s like I’m ROTC, I’m a high school student, you know, so it was very odd. At one point we had–– as ROTC the school asked us to stand by all of the fire alarms for the day because this SDS was supposed to come and “free us” from the tyranny of education. Interviewer: “So how did you wind up in ROTC?” It was either that or P.E., and my thought was that I’d rather march around than do push-ups and pull-ups and things like that. Interviewer: “What did the ROTC high school curriculum consist of?” Marching around. We actually had a gun range in the basement of the high school so we–– we had M1s that we took apart and put back together again and things like that. Cleaned them. Knew how to do the nomenclature of guns and things like that. Interviewer: “What sort of people were instructing you?” Current NCOs. We had a couple NCOs who were in charge–– Army. (3:48). �Interviewer: “Did they say anything about anywhere they’d been or what they’d done?” They talked a little bit about it. I mean most of the classes were like 50 guys, so a lot of it was student leaders–– student officers–– who would run us through drills and stuff like that. Occasionally, as I got to be a senior, I got to spend more time with them and would hear stories about where they’d been. I don’t remember them being real proactive about trying to enlist us into the service. Interviewer: “Once you graduated, what did you do?” I went to work and went to work for 70 hours a week at a steel training plant. I learned quickly that I didn’t want to work that hard the rest of my life. I would rather work smart than hard. Interviewer: “70 hours a week?” Yeah. Interviewer: “How was that even legal?” I don’t know. Interviewer: “Did you get overtime?” I did. I did, but you know, I needed the money. I had moved out when I graduated into my own apartment, so I needed the money for rent and everything. Like I said, I soon learned [that] I needed to go to college. (5:12). Interviewer: “Was the draft still going on at the point when you graduated?” I got a number, yeah. Fortunately I never got called up–– I had a fairly high number. Interviewer: “It didn’t last too much longer after ‘71.” It didn’t, yeah. Although, I enlisted in ‘73 and it was still going on. Interviewer: “I think that was right about just at the end because it was something that Nixon did before he went out of office in ‘74, was to end the draft. So the draft was out there but you were not at risk on a level you would have been a couple of years earlier.” �That may be true, but we still got a number. I remember going with a friend and going, “This could be bad.” You didn’t want a real low number even if you weren’t going to go. (6:01). Interviewer: “Now by this time they have the regular lottery in place, it was just done by birthday?” Yes. Interviewer: “In the meantime though, off to college. Where did you go to school or did you go to school?” No I didn’t because I couldn’t. I couldn’t afford it. So, I decided I needed to go to college and I ended up enlisting. Interviewer: “What branch of the service did you choose?” Air Force. Interviewer: “Why the Air Force?” Because their uniforms are blue like my eyes. Honestly, that’s mostly true. I went to one of those recruiting offices that had all of the services and I interviewed all of them. The Army would give me the best deal because I had four years of high school ROTC and they would give me two stripes. [But] I just like the Air Force. [The] Navy, I can’t swim and the Army seemed like walking around a lot and the Air Force seemed kind of cool, so I went with that. They gave me one stripe the moment I came in. Interviewer: “So when do you actually enlist?” I have an odd sense of humor–– I wanted to go in April 1st, but that wasn’t available. I took April 2, 1973. Interviewer: “Then once you enlisted, what happens to you after that?” Apparently–– because I had one stripe–– I had to carry all the documents for all the guys going from Chicago down to Texas where we were getting basic training. At one point we stopped–– I remember this vividly–– we stopped and we were told to stay on the plane and don’t get out, you know. I got these documents and you don’t know what’s going on. One kid got out and he goes, “I gotta go get something to eat.” I go, “No. You can’t. I got your stuff.” He goes, “I’ll be back.” �I sweated the whole time. He finally got back just at the last moment and I’m thinking, “I would have gotten in trouble if he had not come back because I had all of these documents.” (8:15). Interviewer: “Yeah. You would have lost him already.” Yes. It was horrible. I had one day in–– an hour in–– and I’m already losing people. That’s not a good thing. Interviewer: “Where are they doing the training?” Down in Texas at Lackland. Interviewer: “So Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio?” San Antonio, yeah. Interviewer: “What sort of reception do you get when you arrive at Lackland?” Everybody’s on the bus, everybody goes into a classroom, nobody knows what-the-heck is going on. They talk to us, yell at us, and everything else. I don’t think it was like until two-in-themorning or something before we finally got to bed. You know, to our dorm or barracks and got into bed. It was not a good day. Interviewer: “Now, were you being processed or were you just being lectured to?” Lectured too, I think. Yeah, because we didn’t even get uniforms or anything until the next couple days. So it was just them telling us what we need to do, what we’re supposed to do, blah blah blah. All the rules and I’m like, “Okay.” We’re all sitting there–– one, very tired and two, kind of scared because it’s the unknown. Interviewer: “In the Army and the Marines they would do a variety of unpleasant things to people when they first got there. Including [putting] them in bed at four and getting them up at six or something like that. So, what happens to you in the next couple of days?” From my experience, and the people I know, the Air Force is a little milder than the Army and the Marines. We went to bed at about two and then we got up at six. Interviewer: “Then you get haircuts, uniforms?” (10:03). Oh, yes. Haircuts. Haircuts and then uniforms. �Interviewer: “1973 haircuts–– that might have generated a lot of hair.” Most of the guys had hair until they got through the barbershop. Then it was just bald and I don’t think that’s a good look for anybody. We were not a pretty group. Interviewer: “Yeah, but you all kind of look alike at that point.” We did. Well, now that’s the point, I guess. Everybody’s supposed to look alike, you know? Interviewer: “Now, when you’re there did they do any kind of aptitude testing or had that all been done ahead of time?” That had been done ahead of time. Interviewer: “When you enlisted were you allowed to pick any kind of training specializations or––” Yeah. After the aptitude tests they said, “Here’s your areas that you’re strong in.” I have to admit, my recruiter lied to me. I’m probably the only one that's ever happened too. But he said, “Yeah. Pick anything you want.” I go, “This radio communications analysis specialist sounds kind of cool, but I’ve got family in Arizona. Are the bases in Arizona?” “Oh yeah. We have a lot of Air Force Bases in Arizona.” Well, if you’re a radio communications analysis specialist there’s no bases in Arizona that you’re going to go to. So, oh well. Interviewer: “Now what is the actual basic training for the Air Force like at that point?” Up at six, go to breakfast and then do exercises or marching or classes. You know, military customs, military courtesies, those kinds of things. Then lunch, then dinner, and then after dinner we spent most of the time polishing our shoes and making sure everything was straight in our locker. (12:07). Interviewer: “Do they come and inspect the barracks and your cots and all of that?” Yes, they did. Unbeknownst to my drill instructor, he didn’t know–– training instructor is what we called them–– he didn’t know that I had one stripe. I wasn’t going to say anything because I assumed they know everything and they know what’s going on, so I didn’t say a word. But, I did end up being assigned as squad leader and so I was kind of responsible for helping the eight or ten guys in my squad make sure everything was okay. One of the biggest things was when you buy clothes, you get those little “inspected by” tags. Well, uniforms are the same way. They have those in there and we were told specifically you had to get all of those out, you know. One day I �went through the whole squad–– and they kept finding these things, the training instructors. Every time they went through they found these things and I’m like, “This is crazy.” So, I specifically went through every guy’s stuff–– every pocket–– and there was none. The training instructor comes in [and on] the first guy they find six and I’m going, “No. They weren’t there before.” He goes, “What are you saying? Are you calling me a liar?” I go, “No. I’m just saying they weren’t there before because I checked them all.” I was a bit of a challenge during the training instruction. Interviewer: “Now do you get any instruction that really has anything to do with the Air Force in terms of flying and aircraft?” No. It’s basically just customs and traditions and the “rules of the road” kind of thing. Nothing related to flying and/or our job–– at that point in basic training. (14:02). Interviewer: “What did they do with people when they screwed up?” They’d have to do extra drill or they’d get extra KP. They’d have to work in the kitchen more, things like that. Like I said, the Air Force was absolutely mild compared to everything else. I might have screwed up once–– kind of. There was another squadron that was next to us and they were our “sister squadron.” There was always a competition between us and them–– who was the best. You had to put your shoes below your bunk and they had to be in a perfect line with the post of the bunk, so that if you put a board at the corner of the bunk, all of the toes of the shoes had to touch. But, allegedly, we weren’t supposed to have a board–– but we did because that’s how we lined up our shoes. We had to hide it whenever the other inspector came in. Well one day, unfortunately, he showed up a little earlier than I expected. I was holding this eight-foot, one-by-four, board in the middle of the room and I knew I was going to get in trouble if he saw me with it, so I ran out the fire door and went running down the stairs–– not knowing what I was going to do with this board. Right at the bottom of the stairs was our “sister’s” squad leader and he’s like, “Where are you going with that?” So, they yelled at me. I think they thought it was funny more than anything else, although they didn’t let that on to me. But, I just got yelled at. Interviewer: “How long did basic last?” It was eight weeks. Is that right? Interviewer: “That was standard in the Army at that point.” Six weeks. It was shorter than everything else, and I think that’s part of the reason I picked the Air Force too. They have the shortest basic training [so] I’m thinking that’s a good deal. (16:15). �Interviewer: “Once you complete basic training, what do they do with you?” Again, probably I’m atypical, but I waited around before I could go to tech school. I was on my way to tech school but tech school wasn’t ready yet for me. I ended up cleaning and painting and doing other tasks that needed to be done on the base for about two or three weeks, then I went to my tech school. Interviewer: “And where was that?” Goodfellow, Texas. Goodfellow Air Force Base in San Angelo, Texas. Interviewer: “Where in the state is San Angelo?” It’s the heart of West Texas. Interviewer: “So pretty much in the middle of nowhere?” The middle of nowhere. Maybe about two hours from Mexico. Interviewer: “Okay. How big was the base in terms of how many people do you think were there?” I’d be surprised [if] it were more than a thousand. I mean, it was small. Interviewer: “What kind of technical training were you getting there?” Our training was broken up into a nine-week section and a twelve-week section for a total of 21weeks. The first section was basic stuff because what they were doing at that point was doing our security clearances. What happened is–– they were doing our security clearances–– so it gave the FBI, or whoever was doing those, time to figure that out. At the end of nine-weeks, if you passed, then you went on to the next section. If you didn’t [in] the middle of the night you were gone. (18:04). Interviewer: “How are they actually filling the nine-weeks?” Really basic stuff. It’s just basic stuff, I don’t know. It was confidential but one of the things was typing. We had to type, and I didn’t know how to type, and the way the Air Force teaches you how to type is the keys on the typewriter had no letters and there’s a chart up on the wall. All you can do is just put your fingers on there and look up at the chart and hope your fingers are going where the chart is telling you they’re supposed to go. �Interviewer: “Did that work?” Yes. No, clearly it did. Yeah. It worked really well because I learned how to type. The other thing that happened too is–– typing was at the end of the day, so if you knew how to type you got to go drinking with everybody else. If you didn’t know how to type, you sat there for as many weeks as it took you before you could get 60-words a minute. Interviewer: “Aside from typing, were they teaching you sort of technical things relating to radios or communications or that kind of stuff?” Sure. Honestly, I don’t even remember what they thought of–– they taught us code and things like that. We had to learn morse code and things like that, so some of that was the basic stuff, you know. Of course, I had been a boy scout so I knew some of those already. Some are like, “SOS,” at least I knew it. We learned some of those kinds of things. (20:06). Interviewer: “Was there ever actually an occasion to use morse code once you were on duty anywhere?” What I did was top-secret, so I don’t know. I know it’s probably declassified at this point but it makes me uncomfortable talking about it and being specific. Interviewer: “That’s still a fairly broad kind of question.” Well, I can tell you–– and this tells you a little bit about the service–– I can tell you to this day verbatim, exactly what my job description was. The unclassified version. I would bet that if you look back 48-years or whatever it was and look it up, I’ll get it word for word. I monitored Air Force communications to ensure that there were no security leaks or compromises with the enemy. That’s not what I did, but that’s the story. Interviewer: “You basically spend nine-weeks of what is sort-of warm-up and basic skills and waiting you out. Now, you move onto your twelve weeks. Is this stuff that is gearing you toward that very specific job?” Yes. Yeah. That very specific job. By the time you get out of that 21-weeks, you’re ready to go. Interviewer: “What would you do when you were not training?” There was a lot of drinking. The nice thing about Texas is there’s some really great steakhouses. We loved going into the steakhouses. There was a lake nearby that we went too. One time a couple guys and I went down to Mexico for some souvenirs. Well one guy wanted to get–– �wanted to be in a relationship with a young lady for a short period of time. We also went camping, things like that, as a group. (22:18). Interviewer: “How did the people in the community view the servicemen on the base?” I think they liked us because we had money–– a lot of disposable income–– and we spent it. Because we had a place to live and we had food, so it's okay. Interviewer: “So whatever else you had you just spent––” Well then we were young and stupid and it’s like, “Yeah. Let’s go.” Interviewer: “Did some of the guys have cars?” I did. Yeah, some guys did and most didn’t. My roommate had a motorcycle. Interviewer: “Now if you think back at the time you spent in the various stages of training, are there other things that kind of stand out in your memory about those experiences?” To be honest, other than typing, I don’t even remember what they taught us. I do know that, as much as the 21-weeks were supposed to get you ready, you got to the job on your first base and you’re like, “They didn’t teach me this.” It’s like, “Okay.” You had to learn stuff but I got a basic understanding of what I was supposed to do. Interviewer: “In your case, you finish the twelve-week cycle–– where do they send you?” Well–– I’m gonna brag a little bit–– for the 21-weeks, we had a test every Friday. My average at the end of the 21-weeks was 98.54, so I was top of the class. Because I was top of the class, I got my choice. They did say, “You could go to Vietnam or you could go to Alaska or you could go to Florida or England.” I was like, “This is a no-brainer. I’m taking England.” They speak our language, it’s a foreign country–– you’re going to pay to fly me over? Party on. Let’s go. (24:25). Interviewer: “Can you say where in England you were based?” I was based at RAF Chicksands, which is in Chicksands–– which is near Shefford–– which is about 50 miles north of London. Interviewer: “Is this an area that–– a place that–– had been an air base during World War II or was it a newer facility?” �Okay. I was in the Air Force. In the four bases I was at, only one had a plane and that was a Cessna that the base commander used. I was in intelligence and so where I was wasn’t where the planes were. Interviewer: “What kind of living quarters and facilities did you have there?” We had barracks. Two guys to a room–– it had to be ten-by-ten. It couldn’t have been much more than that. Interviewer: “What was the routine like there?” The worst schedule I’ve ever had. Because we were intelligence and we had to man the base 24hours a day, 365–– we were on a rotating schedule. We worked four swing shifts. Took 24-hours off, then four midnight shifts, took 24-hours off. Then did four day shifts and then had 96 hours off. Repeat. Interviewer: “How many people were working a shift or to what extent were you on your own?” No. There were four flights–– Air Force flights–– abel, baker, charlie, and dog. One of them was doing one of each one of the three shifts and then one was off. I was on baker flight. (26:22). Interviewer: “When you were off, what did you do?” There might have been some drinking. We did a lot of things. The base was really good because it was just intelligence–– I mean that was our main focus and so they fed us incredibly well. Because we were on such a weird shift schedule, the mess hall was open all of the time. You could go at midnight and get like an omelette bar. Or if you wanted a steak, you could get a steak. It was just really good food–– and always available. The base would open things up like the movie theater because we’d get off at midnight–– especially that last one where you got 24hours to go. You don’t want to go to sleep right away because then you’re going to wake up at eight in the morning and then have to go to work at midnight–– that didn’t work out well. What we did was–– they would open up the theater [so] we could go watch movies. The bowling alley was open and there was a wreck hall–– all sorts of things like that on base that we could do. Interviewer: “Was this an all American base?” Yes. �Interviewer: “But there must have been a fair number of you there if they had all those kinds of facilities.” Yes. Interviewer: “Well there are no planes so you think, ‘Okay.’ Alright, that’s just a big operation.” Yeah. I would bet there were probably 300 people just on my flight. Then you’ve got a lot of support people as well, so. Interviewer: “Now would you, on the time off, was that–– would you get enough time off to go into London or anything like that?” Yeah. We did. Especially because we had that 96-hours off at the end, we had a chance to do a lot of stuff. Plus, we had our regular leave–– about 30 days of leave. You could take that in one big chunk–– which one year I did and two buddies and I rented a VW Bus/Camper and drove throughout Europe. (28:39). Interviewer: “So did you rent it in England and have to drive on the wrong side and then have to take it out of Europe with you?” Yeah. The hardest part of driving on the wrong side, which I had a car on base as well, the hardest part for me at least was backing out of a parking space and making sure I was in the right lane. Other than that, you kind of get used to it. Interviewer: “Then [you] go over to Europe and they’re driving on the right side of the road again.” It’s very complicated. There might have been one time when–– I think we were in Brussels or something–– that maybe I went in the tram lane rather than a car lane because I didn’t read the signs and I didn’t know. Maybe one time I was in a bike lane–– you know, there were a lot of things. Interviewer: “But did you hit anybody?” I did not hit anybody. Interviewer: “There you go. So how long were you based in England?” �I was there for three years. Interviewer: “Did you stay on that same base time or did you move around?” I did. The same base. In fact, it was a two-year assignment and then I just extended it because I was having such a great time. I got to know a lot of the locals, you know. We could go to the pubs and stuff in the town around us, so I got to know a lot of people. Interviewer: “What are the dates for when you go to England and when you leave?” It would have been December of ‘73 through December of ‘76. (30:11). Interviewer: “A bunch of different things are going on in our country–– in the world–– at that time. There’s the end of the Vietnam War, there’s all the Watergate and Nixon stuff, and all of that kind of thing. Then you get the bicentennial in 1976. To what extent did any of that stuff resonate with where you were?” I think they tried to make things as normal as possible. I mean, it’s a military base, so the Watergate thing, it was like, “Let’s not deal with that.” But the bicentennial–– we had a big celebration. It was kind of interesting because then the town people love to come on the base and see the fireworks and see us playing baseball and those kinds of things. Interviewer: “Of course, you were celebrating independence from England–– but they’ve gotten over it?” Yes. Yes. In fact, one time I was in Ireland in this little pub and there had to be maybe, at most, 20 people could have been in this pub. My two buddies and I were there and we were talking and as soon as we started talking the Irish guys were like, “Oh, Yanks.” We’re going, “Yeah we are.” He goes, “Because you guys are the greatest.” I go, “What made us the greatest that goes on during the Great War?” “You guys would go over and fly and bomb in the middle of the day. You didn’t care, but those damn English, they’d sneak over there at night.” I’m like, “Oh, okay.” I don’t think I had any responsibility for that but “Go Yanks.” Interviewer: “You’re there on a Cold War mission, essentially?” Yes. Interviewer: “Did you have any actual alerts or did you run drills periodically for what would happen if X or Y was going on?” �Yeah. It was the military, you’ve got to have drills. I think that’s the reason I didn’t re-enlist. There was nothing worse than getting off a day shift, maybe going into the pub and having more than a few pints of beer–– and they had really good beer–– and then coming back, going to sleep at midnight, and then [at] 2a.m. the alarms go off and you have to go up to the compound for an inspection and a drill–– but it was really just a uniform inspection. Then you’re up there from like two until like four or four-thirty, and you have to go back to work at eight. It’s like, “Now what?” [You’d] just go over to the mess hall and have something to eat and hang around. So, yeah. We had a lot of drills. (33:02). Interviewer: “Were there any situations where you really didn’t know what was going on or thought this might be something bigger?” We always thought it was something, but after a while–– I guess in the beginning we did–– [but] after a while you go, “Okay. Another uniform inspection.” But, the military trained you that we’re practicing because it could happen, so you’re always like maybe this is a drill and maybe not. You just never knew. Interviewer: “During the course of time you were there, did you get any promotions?” Yes. I ended up being a Sergeant. Interviewer: “For what grade of Sergeant? Just the lowest level––” E3. I came in as an E1 but see–– and here’s a problem–– at that point, because Vietnam was ending promotions were slowing down. So, it took longer for you to get them. I got it as quick as I could. I don’t think I was behind, but I wasn’t really motivated to do anything special. Interviewer: “Did you work with officers much at all or were you largely with a small group of enlisted?” Mostly enlisted. For our baker flight, we had a flight commander who was a second Lieutenant. [That] was interesting because he was almost as young as we were, so it was interesting. But we had to deal with the base commander because he was a weirdo. He would sit in his office with binoculars and watch people going up to the compound–– going up to work–– and if he thought your hair was too long, he would send the SPs to go get you and take you to the barbershop. (35:05). Interviewer: “The SPs–– that’s security police?” Security police, yeah. MPs–– �Interviewer: “MPs is the Army––” Yeah. We changed names. Interviewer: “Do you remember what rank he was?” He was a Colonel–– Colonel George. I don’t know his last name but Colonel George was his name and he was a haircut fanatic. Interviewer: “Well, he may not have had that much else to do.” That could be true. I mean, we did what we were supposed to do and so I don’t know that he really had much to do. Interviewer: “Did you have a group of more senior NCOs who were kind of almost permanent staff there or were most of you rotating in-and-out like you?” Mostly everybody was rotating into them. There were some day-shift people, but even they rotated in-and-out. We called them “day ladies.” Interviewer: “Were there any women personnel in the base?” Yes. Yeah. Not a lot. On our flight of 300 I would say maybe 40/50. Interviewer: “Did they limit what kinds of jobs they could have?” No. They were the same as us at that point. Interviewer: “Do you have any sense of how they were treated or how they got along with the male personnel?” [They] got along very well with me. No, they got along really well with everybody. I think it still was a pretty sexist environment, and maybe they got harassed a little bit more than the guys did. I was thinking of one example about it. If they were new and stuff, one of the NCOs would have them do the EMHo report. It’s like, “Hey, go around and check with all the guys what the EMHO status is.” [They’re] like, “Okay.” So they’d go around and have everybody give them what was “Early Morning Hard-On.” That was the report. So, you’d get things like, “Fine” or “hard today” or “six and going.” Everyone would give different things, and we could just be laughing. We did a lot of goofy things–– not just to the girls because in an eight-hour shift, there was not always eight-hours of activity. Especially midnight. Especially midnight on Christmas or �New Year’s, when the world is kind of sleeping. There’s not a lot going on. So we would do all sorts of goofy things. We had printer paper–– back in the old days–– with the edges with the holes in them that you could rip off. So, you rip those off and you get about 20 feet of that. Then you put a paperclip in one of the holes and make a hook out of the paperclip. Then, when somebody is walking by, you clip it in the back of their belt loop and then they go walking away with 30 feet of paper following them. It’s that kind of stuff that we just tried to entertain ourselves with. (38:39). Interviewer: “Did you ever do anything working with any of the NATO allies at all or the British?” Yes. We were good with the Brits mostly–– we were in their country. I don’t know if anybody else did anything else–– again being [in] security, you only did what you needed to know, so they weren’t going to tell you anything else. I dealt with the Brits, that’s what I know. I don’t know if we dealt with everyone else. Interviewer: “To think back about that time that you spent in England, are there other particular memories that stand out for you–– that you’re allowed to share?” I remember–– one of the things we had to do on midnight shifts is people had burn detail. Everything in that building got burned, nothing went out. Every piece of paper. If you had a Kleenex, it would get burned. So, one of the things midnight shift did was all these bags of accumulated paper and we would have to burn them. Then, not only burn them, but then clean out the furnace and make sure there were no scraps of paper that might have had some code or some magic message on it. That was annoying. Some of the things on the base were kind of normal. I ended up getting involved with the boy scouts and I was the boy scout leader for the troop on base. Then, one of the guys from the town, who was the scout master of the English troop, was my assistant. I was his assistant for [his] troop in town. It was nice, we had an exchange and stuff. It was nice. I learned how to ski in Scotland–– you know, one of those 96hour days or 96-hour periods. 30 of us from the same flight took a bus up to Scotland and would learn how to ski. So, we did a lot of traveling and stuff–– it was nice. (41:03). Interviewer: “And the British people generally liked you or?” They liked their income. The guys did not like the fact that some of their women liked us and wanted to get married to us so we could bring them back here. There was a little bit of grief there. I was telling a friend of mine a story last night. I went to this one pub–– always went to this one pub–– and back in those days they were on World War II hours where they would open up for lunch, eleven to two, and then they would close so the factory workers would go back, and then they’d open back up again seven to ten–– and then they were done. I spent a lot of time �there from seven to ten when I could during days. I got to know a bunch of the guys and it wasn’t until a year after I'd been going there, that ten o’clock came and the pub owner, Mike, is like, “Everybody hussle out.” He turns to me and goes, “Kid,”–– they’d called me the Chicago kid because I was from Chicago–– he goes, “Kid. Just sit there and drink your drink.” I go, “Okay” and I’m thinking there’s some weird tradition or something and I’m going to get in trouble here. He shuffles everybody out except for like three of the local guys–– regulars–– turns the lights off, locks the door, and goes, “If the bobby’s come just tell him you’re finishing that one up.” I go, “Oh, okay.” Well, we sat there until three o’clock in the morning, and that happened all the time–- if you were “okay.” It took me a year before they accepted me and said [I] can hang around. I mean it was a great experience. If I was the ruler of the world, I think every kid who graduates high school should have to go to a foreign country for a year. I don’t care if it’s Peace Corps or religious event or service or whatever, just to get that exposure. I think it’s a good experience. (43:20). Interviewer: “At what point–– I mean, did you ever consider actually staying in?” No. I think it was those goofy drills that just drove me crazy. It’s just like I don’t care if my shoes are shined or not, you know? Interviewer: “Was that still an issue on that base? Did you still have to go through all that spit and polish stuff?” A little bit, but because we were intelligence they were pretty lax. We didn’t have a lot of inspections. In fact, I remember in our dorm we could hire a maid, so the whole floor hired this maid and she came and cleaned our rooms. Interviewer: “But you did extend for a year?” Well yes–– at that base. Yeah, because it was like why do I want to go somewhere else? I’m having a good time here. Interviewer: “Since you still had time left on your enlistment, it was just a question of staying there or going somewhere else.” Yeah. In fact, I actually got out four months early because I should have gone till April but I got out in December because I got there in December. I stayed for two years and then extended for one year. Rather than extending me for four months they said, “See you later.” Interviewer: “Did you go back to the States at all during your time over there?” �I did not. A lot of the guys did. They’d go home for Christmas or whatever, but my attitude was I’m in England. I don’t know when I’m ever going to come back here. Chicago is always going to be there–– I’m going to go back and live there. So, I took the time–– all of the leave–– and traveled; Ireland, Germany, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, wherever. Any chance I could get. One time–– a friend and I had the same birthday–– and he goes, “Where do you want to go for our birthday?” I go, “Brussels.” He goes, “Okay.” So, we took the weekend and went to Brussels for our birthday. It was just that easy. (45:35). Interviewer: “How good was the dollar at that point? I mean how far did your money go?” Far enough. I think the pound was about two bucks. I think when I first got there it was about two-fifty per pound, and then I think it got down to less than two bucks by the time I left. Interviewer: “And as you went to different countries could they usually tell you were U.S. Military with haircuts and all of that?” Yes. Yeah, generally they could. Although, we had to be careful while traveling. Especially because of our clearance. We couldn’t go over or into any country that was hostile to the United States–– we had to be real careful. Interviewer: “So you’re basically in Western Europe–– but did you get to Switzerland?” Yeah. We went to Switzerland. I went to Switzerland [and] Austria. Interviewer: “Did you get to Berlin?” No–– couldn’t. Interviewer: “Well, you could go to West Berlin but that would get more complicated.” Yeah, no. Berlin was off the list. Interviewer: “Now, you kind of get to 1976––” In fact, I remember this. We could travel on our military ID and we didn’t need a passport, but we were highly encouraged to get a passport so that people couldn’t tell that we were military. One time, I was going to take a picture in my uniform for the passport and they were like, “Nope. Not happening. Put on civilian clothes.” So, we did. (47:29). �Interviewer: “Did you notice at any place, any kind of leftover counterculture hostility to military or anti-war stuff?” No. I don’t remember any of that. Interviewer: “Well it didn’t affect Europeans the way it did us to begin with–– it wasn’t their war.” No. Most everybody was pretty friendly and helpful. I remember in France with the VW Bus–– this was just towards the end of the trip, you know we had made a great circle, we were coming back. We’re in the middle of France somewhere and the engine blew. Of course, the other two guys and I didn’t speak that much French–– none, we’re just ugly Americans. So we’re at the side of the road in this VW Bus and there’s oil all over the place and this one couple stopped and the guy came out. My two friends are trying to explain to him that they think we blew a rod or something in the engine. He’s looking at it and he goes, “Oh, oui-oui oil.” They’re going, “No. No, I don’t think it’s oil.” I was talking to the wife and I was trying to figure out how to tell her it was the engine instead. Finally, I said, “Engine kapu.” She goes, “Oh. Oui-oui kaput.” Then she explained to her husband what had happened–– the engine ca-put. The weird thing was, they spoke English. I mean, they knew English but they didn’t feel comfortable speaking it. I asked him, “Would you take me to a phone so we could get a tow-truck?” You know, “Oui-oui.” I sat in the back of their car and they would talk to each other in French and confer, and then they would ask me a question in English. Then I’d give them a question and they’d confer again and so they were really nice. They took me to a pub–– or a bar–– and we got a tow-truck to come. Then, they found us a bed-and-breakfast to stay at. The people at the bread-and-breakfast were incredibly helpful, you know, calling the repair shop, calling the automobile club to say we need another vehicle. I mean so yeah, I think people were really friendly towards us. (50:03). Interviewer: “Because they were also in the French provinces and in the provinces they’re often nicer than they are in Paris.” Yes. I got stuck in an elevator in Paris once, but people there were friendly, although they did say it would take three hours for somebody to come and repair the elevator. I don’t think that was hostility, I think it was just the repair guy lived out in the suburbs or something. Interviewer: “Anything else from the European trip here that you can throw in?” I have many stories–– most of them–– you know, it was just such a great time traveling with the friends and experiences that I’ll remember forever. �Interviewer: “So, you get finished. Were you able to negotiate the four-months early out or did they just offer that?” That’s pretty standard. Interviewer: “Then when you get out, what do you do?” A couple of the guys said, “When you get out, you can apply for unemployment.” I’m like, “What are you talking about?” They’re like, “You can get unemployment because you’re––” I go, “Really? Okay.” So I applied for unemployment and it bothered me that I was doing it, but at the same time I was like I can sit around and watch TV at home and you’re going to send me a check for doing nothing? I mean it was really hard to say that [it] doesn’t make sense. I did that for a while, but in the meantime I was really waiting for college to start. I ended up going to college then. Interviewer: “Where did you go to college?” I started at University of Illinois - Chicago [and] hated it. It was way too big, a lecture hall with 300 people with a professor about that size at the bottom of the hall. I always felt that you could have died and nobody would have noticed you, unless you actually slumped over into the aisle. I didn’t like that. I went there for a year and then I transferred to George Williams College which is a smaller university. In the meantime I had no clue what I wanted to do, so I went to the VA because I knew they had career counseling. They go, “You should be an outdoor recreation guy.” I go, “Oh, okay.” I started kind of doing that and I was thinking that I don’t know I want to be outdoors when it’s 30 degrees. So, I ended up moving into social work. (52:55). Interviewer: “Did you wind up with a career as a social worker?” Yes. Yes, and the VA helped me with my tuition and books and all that kind of stuff. I ended up graduating with a master’s degree in social work and I became a school social worker and had a career doing that. Interviewer: “Are you with Chicago Public Schools?” No. Suburban high schools. Interviewer: “And which suburbs were you in?” I was in Roselle, Wilmette, Wheeling, Mount. Prospect. �Interviewer: “And when do you retire?” I retired in 2010. Interviewer: “These days, you spend a lot of time on a boat?” I do. Yeah. I retired early because I had just had it. I was done. I retired earlier than I should have. Retirement is such a weird thing because it’s like why are you retiring when you’re too old and not in the shape you were in when you were eighteen to do stuff. I retired early thinking I would maximize my time. Ended up–– a couple years ago–– I bought a boat, so I spend a lot of time on my boat now. (54:19). Interviewer: “At the beginning of the interview you said something about not being able to swim.” Yes. Interviewer: “How do you go from not being able to swim to living on a boat?” Yeah–– a good point. My previous boat was a sixteen-foot canoe with a trolling motor, and so I had a farm that I used as a getaway when I was working. Then, when I retired I didn’t have any reason to get away and so I sold the farm and I had this chunk of money. I thought, I could do the adult thing and invest it or I could buy a winter house, or I could buy a lake house. I couldn’t find any lake houses that I liked and so–– because I’m not a morning person and I don’t like sunrises, I like sunsets–– I couldn’t find anything on the right side of the lake that I could do. One guy had a boat and I thought, “Ta-da.” If I had a boat I could go see the sunset anywhere and so I bought a boat. Before I did it, I called my two best friends and I went, “Yeah. I can’t swim–– 16 foot canoe. Thinking about buying a big boat, what do you think?” They’re going, “Yeah, good idea.” I was hoping my friends would have better sense than I did but really they know me well. Interviewer: “But you still don’t swim?” No. I’m like a rock, you know. I mean I have taken swimming lessons and it’s like, “Okay. Just grab your knees and we’ll do the jellyfish float and you’ll just float up to the top.” Well after about three or four minutes on the bottom I’m going, “This ain’t working. I’m done with this.” Interviewer: “But no fear of water in the meantime?” Well–– no. Not if I got a boat around. No, I tend to wear my life jacket all the time, just because. �Interviewer: “While you could not devote state secrets, you could tell us quite a bit about what your life in the military was like and that’s really what we’re doing these things for. So, I would like to thank you for sharing the story today.” You’re welcome. (56:37). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KoehlP2327V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koehl, Philip C. II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08 Title A name given to the resource Koehl, Philip (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Philip Koehl was born in 1953 in Oak Park, Illinois. Koehl grew up with his family in the Northwest side of Chicago. Koehl’s father was a truck driver, his stepfather a carpenter, and his mother owned a pet store which Koehl eventually got a job at. After graduating from Lane Tech High School, where he participated in ROTC, in 1971, Koehl then got a job working at a steel training plant. However, Koehl eventually enlisted in the Air Force April 2, 1973. Basic training took place at Lackland air base in San Antonio, Texas. It was after this training when Koehl went down to Goodfellow Air Force Base in San Angelo, Texas and began receiving specialized training for his position as a radio communications analysis specialist. After finishing technical training Koehl was given the opportunity to travel to a variety of different locations and ended up at Chicksand Air Force Base in England. Koehl stayed here until April of 1974 when he was discharged from the service. Upon his leave, Koehl returned to school and got his Master of Social Work. He then worked as a social worker for his career up until his retirement in 2010. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/82e93c6aa22b12224abe83bfa7c5f4ae.m4v 3a0f8d1a4ac2727564525dd860a92b1b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0dc95f4bf3f7d9e2a3863a3a169f12d1.pdf c336506f4976e68db916b21ca1ef0b29 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee: Bill Koetje Length of Interview: 02:01:59 Background              He was born in Kalamazoo, MI in December 18, 1921. He father worked in a paper mill and his mom was a stay at home wife. He is the oldest of 5 children. He graduated high school in 1940. Once he graduated, he would work in a grocery store, in all different positions. He still lived with his parents at the time. He knew a lot about what was going on in the war at the time. In fact, his military career would start in 1937 or ’38 when he joined the CMTC, or the Civilian Military Training Corps. The government put up this program. He was out at Camp Custer for ten weeks. He would get out of school and go there for training. They didn’t get paid, but had a regular military life. They drilled all morning. In the afternoon, they would do classwork. The first thing they learned about was military regulations. He was supposed to go four summers and graduate from the program. This would automatically make them a 2nd Lieutenant. Then they had to spend 16 years either in regular service or the reserves. Then the draft started. In 1940, he was expecting a war, especially with all the things that Hitler was doing. He enlisted in the Marines in 1941, but they rejected him because of his feet, they had too high arches or something. 30 days later he would receive his draft notice. He had two weeks to get his things in order. From there he went right out to Fort Custer and he was inducted into the service. While he was there he had to take an IQ test. When he was finished he was put on a train to Fort McClellan, Alabama Training (6:40)     The farther south he went, the hotter it got. Otherwise he did not remember much. He had to stay on the train the whole trip. The camp itself was a nice place. It was not like other camps, in the sense that it did not have barracks and such. Instead the men lived in huts. When he got down there, he was sitting on the curb, waiting to get his uniform. There was a big guy there who was being a bully, stepping on their toes and such. He warned the man to stop, but he did not. �                     So, he started hitting the guy. When his captain saw him, he ran out to them and grabbed him off the man. The captain held him at arm’s length, when he told his captain to let him go. He said “You can order me around but you can’t man-handle me”. The captain informed him that they would speak later. He would finally get his clothes and get his bed ready along with everything else. He would report back to the captain who started asking him questions about where he learned his military knowledge. He was not cooperative, and told the captain that his records from the day he was born until that moment were with the military and he would tell him when he was ready to ship out. That would put him in quite a spot, though he did not get any sort of punishment. He would spend 6 weeks in basic training. When he was offered the option to stay there as a cadre, he said no. He had made too many enemies with the current cadres there and did not want to fight them all the time. They sent him out to Fort Benning, Georgia. He would join the 101st Airborne Division. He was 20 years old. He would go through all their training at jump school. When you were there you did not walk anywhere, you would have to run to every place you went in order to help harden you up. Then they would start calisthenics; push-ups, push-ups and more push-ups. They were not rough on the soldiers, but it was rough training. He would also learn how to pack his own chutes. When he was getting ready to make his first jump on the airplane, a jeep pulled up and called his name. He was ordered to come with them. When he reported to the colonel, he was asked old he was. He was 20. The colonel was relieved that he did not make that jump. In order to do jump school he had to be 21 or have parent’s consent. At that point he was sent to Camp Butner, North Carolina and joined the 78th Infantry Division. They had just activated the division and he was the first one there. Troops would slowly join them. When they had enough, they would begin training. At this point he was still a private. That was the one thing he could not stand about the Army, it was the poorest paying job in the world. He got to North Carolina in November 1942 and stayed there until the following September or October. He was accustomed to living military life. He wasn’t homesick or anxious about things. He was able to leave base and go into town. He wasn’t always a good boy. After the passes were signed and stamped he would take 10 or 12 of them. When the coast was clear, he would go to town. (18:10) While he went to town, he would spend a lot of weekends with a guy he knew, who owned a big house. He called him Doc. Doc would almost figure out that he was sneaking passes. He had a lot of fun out there during the weekends. In fact, he would have picture of him and some other guys who were also from other areas of Michigan. He would go home to visit for Christmas before being transferred to Fort Meade, Maryland. �                He was made a sergeant after he got there. He would work processing soldiers before they went overseas. He would work in that job for about a year. So far, he had spent two years in the military in the US. He was still at Fort Meade when D-Day happened. This made the men more worried about going overseas. It was right after supper one night, and suddenly the guy upstairs came running down to his room and told him that there was a guy with a pistol warning that he’d shoot anyone who would come near him. He thought about it for a few minutes and he went up alone. The man had crawled into his bed and under the sheets. He would go up to the man and demand the pistol, butt first. At first the man did not comply, but eventually he gave up the pistol. He emptied the gun and took the man to the orderly room. They called the hospital and had the man taken to the hospital. The man resisted and would only go if he went with him. So he did. When they got to the hospital, he told one of the ambulance drivers to go get a straitjacket. They got him in the jacket and they took him off. He doesn’t know what happened to him from then on. There was another incident when an Indian stabbed the guy in the bunk next to him. I caused a lot of commotion. (25:35) He went to the hospital with the man who ended up getting 4 or 5 pints of blood. He would stay with him there for a couple of days. Eventually the guy got better. There was yet another incident when a man threatened to jump off a balcony in order not to go overseas. He ended up pushing the guy who fell and was fine. He told him to stop with the funny business or next time he would push him down head first. The man did not give him any more trouble. He would have to deal with men like this all the time, because they got into a mood. Otherwise he had a great time while he was there. The men who worked under him would often ask for passes to go to New York, Boston or any other areas around there. He would look over the charts and see who had KP or guard duty. If you did not have either of those, he told you to disappear. He did not want to see you until Sunday evening around 7, when you needed to get checked in again. The men really appreciated it. He would visit Washington D.C. It was a free city, where you did not have to salute, transportation was free and the Pepsi company would have a big building set aside for entertainment for the soldiers. The town itself was interesting. He went to a lot of different places there and saw a lot of things. This would all come to an end when he was ordered to go overseas. His namewais at the top of the list. A colonel that he knew would find his name on the list and would order him to go home to Kalamazoo for a couple days and come back when they were ready to ship out. Europe (31:30) �                   He would ship out of Fort Dix, New Jersey, on the Queen Elizabeth. Since he was on one of the fastest ships on the ocean, the ship would go without an escort. Because he was a sergeant, he had to stay in the “white” area. 12 hours he spent with the 13 other guys in the room and the other 12 he was rotated out onto the deck, where he would take his blanket and sleep. The weather was good, and that ship could handle anything. There was one time when the soldiers were very lax. You were supposed to carry a life preserver wherever you when on the ship, but they did that very half-hearted. When they got to Scotland, someone started shooting and it scared the daylights out of them. They really scrambled for their life vests then. There was not a problem with seasickness on the way over there, but on the way back, it was huge. The ship anchored off of Scotland and had to take smaller boats to get to shore because the ship was so huge. They couldn’t go straight to the English Channel because the Germans would have sunk them He was then sent by train to Liverpool. From there he was sent right away by boat, across the English Channel. He landed in La Havre, France, where he would stay about a day and half. He was taken right up almost to the front lines, where he joined the 100th Infantry Division as a replacement, just outside of Dijon, France. His first experience under fire was quite a different experience than he was used to. He was scared to death. When he got off the train and started marching out to the front lines, he would have American fire going over his head. They were all scared that it was incoming fire. When they got to the front lines, he learned quickly which outgoing fire was and which was incoming; you can tell by the sound of the shells. His division was assigned to the 7th Army, which had come up from Southern France. They were supposed to join with France’s 1st Army. When he joined them, he went to his captain. The captain asked if he could handle a machine gun; he said yes, and was assigned to carry ammunition. He was too scared to tell him that he was a sergeant, so he did as he was told. He would carry ammunition for a couple of days when a runner would come up to him and tell him that the old man wanted to see him. He went back and he was assigned to take over a section, two machine guns. (40:00) His buddy, Gordon Roberts, would be assigned to the mortar section, but they did not use mortars a whole lot because of the Germans heavy fortifications. Instead they would use other stuff. His unit was always on the go. They had the Germans on the run, which he liked because their back to them, which means they wouldn’t shoot at them. Whenever they took over a town, they would fortify the town and fool around a bit. A lot of the civilian population would hide in the basements. One time a woman came screaming out of a basement. She didn’t speak English, but he understood “baby.” One of the women down there was having a baby, and he pointed her toward the medics. The Germans would counterattack a lot. One night, the counterattack was absolutely wicked. You couldn’t get out of the hole, and you didn’t know where they were at. �                    He just had his guns keep shooting all night. The Germans were coming at them with foot soldiers. The next day one of the soldiers had hung up his rain coat on some nearby brush. It was always wet there and it was in the middle of winter. So he hung his coat up and when it started getting dark, someone started shooting the coat, thinking it was an enemy. When they finally got the guy to stop shooting, the coat was all torn up. He sure didn’t miss his target. It was the winter of 1944-1945. It was difficult for them to get food. The people who were supposed to bring food to them on the front lines were reluctant to get close. So instead, he had to send a couple of guys at a time back to them to get some chow. They would come back and he would send the next two, etc. (46:00) They would try to get C rations, but sometimes they would get K. If they ate K rations they would often times get sick. He would have a lot of trouble with men getting sick from trench foot and frostbite. It was 17 degrees on the front line and all they had was wool coats and standard boots to keep them warm. He wore 3 pairs of OD’s on, 3 shirts and a field jacket just trying to stay warm. His hands were so cold that he could hardly fire his rifle. He had been fighting real well there and pushing the Germans back until he hit Biche, France and hit the Siegfried Line. They also fought in what had been the Maginot Line. The little pillboxes there would give them a lot of trouble. It was difficult to take them out. They tried bombing one once. They bomb skipped over it and exploded near them and he got a concussion. They were there for 2 days when they got self-propelled cannons. They started hammering on the side of these things, like at the side of a mountain. This would work. They finally blew a hole in the thing in the morning. They would then get orders to attack. He would run point on the mission that day. He would work with a full-blooded Indian, a good soldier, who would cover him. He would work his way up to the newly blown hole when he would run into two men with pole charges; explosives at the end of a pole. They would make it up to the wall where the Germans couldn’t get them. They were having trouble reaching to where the charge needed to go, so he would help them set up the charges. He would get the charge into the hole and BOOM! He would then do the same with the second pole charge. He would get a bronze star for bravery in this event. When he got back to his line, the medic would notice a really bad limp. He didn’t notice anything, but when the boot came off, his foot swelled right up. So he was tagged and sent back. Once they got into one of the pillboxes, which were all connected, they would blow their way through the rest of them. He was then brought up to the First Aid Station. He was there a little while. Not much excitement then. �                    He was in Sarrebourg, France, a little town. There was a French Garrison there. They cleaned out some stables and put cots in there. Army beds were brought up around Christmas time. They felt very special at the time. They would also clean him up a bit. He did not have time to shave, so they shaved him. He told them to just cut his clothes off. He got different clothing. The nurses were singing Christmas Hymns and they turned off the lights and enjoyed the moment. There wasn’t a dry eye in the place. A twin engine bomber flew over and dropped two bombs, hitting the barracks and the stables. Only 4 people lived that day. He would finally come to in Paris, when he realized he was alive. He was in the hospital for 4 months recovering from frostbite and a concussion from the last bombing. He doesn’t know how he was alive. He felt like he was hit by a 10 ton truck. He remembers grabbing the mattress and covering himself in a corner. It was probably what saved his life that day. When he was in Paris, the Battle of the Bulge had started. When he came to, there were 4 doctors trying to decide what to do with him. One wanted to send him back to the States, the other three said that he wouldn’t make the trip. So he was sent to a hospital in England instead. During that time, he was stuck in bed the whole time. While he was there he got himself into some trouble with a Lieutenant who had called for attention. He had learned in school that a soldier in the hospital was not a soldier, but a patient, so he didn’t pay any attention. The Lieutenant was very upset by this. They exchanged a few words and the guy left. He would return. Before the Lieutenant got back he found a hand grenade. He took the powder out to make it harmless. When the guy came back he handed him a supposed ready-to-blow hand grenade. He never saw someone turn so white. That stirred up a big fuss in the hospital. He wanted to see a Chaplain, but the nurse was ordered by the guy not to get one. She was eventually convinced otherwise by him. He was then visited by a large man, a colonel who would inform them that he was not in trouble and would be transported to another hospital by the end of the day. While he was in England, he would go to a pub and had some good times. (1:00:00) He would end up almost being court martialed while creating some trouble at the pub. He had another ordeal there before he could go back. Soldiers had to fire a rifle and mortar before they were seen fit enough to go back overseas. When he got to the rifle range, a $20 bill was offered for the best score on the rifle range. He won that money. The officer who offered the 20 wanted to know how he knew he was going to get the money. He said that he spent 3 weeks in a rifle program, where you had to score between 95 and 100 points. He had quit the program because he shoulder hurt so much, he could hardly hold his rifle anymore. Shortly after that, he got on the boat and went into France. He went back to his unit that was now in Germany. His regiment had new orders to stop a German unit that was trying to come through Italy. �     On his way there he was shot at. When he shot back, a man came running out of a house. He did not last very long. At that point, most of the Germans were surrendering to the Americans whenever they caught up with them. As they were getting farther into Germany, the civilian population would hide in their wine cellars. They would stay out of sight of the Americans as much as they could. After the war had ended they were ordered not to fraternize with any of the Germans, civilian or otherwise. There was a $50 fine for disobeying the orders. They ended the war in Urbach, Germany near the foot of the Alps. After the War (1:18:00)                 They would patrol a long highway between two of the towns. The Americans that were there would go through everything. One kid found a motorcycle and wanted to ride it so bad that he did. He didn’t know how to stop so he crashed and broke his ankle. There was one time when someone started to shout warnings and the whole village went absolutely chaotic. He and the others spent almost 2 days trying to calm the people down and get things back to normal. They stayed there about a month. When he first got there, he did not see in civilians. After they had set up a cooking station, he was sitting on the curb eating his food when two little girls showed up. Suddenly he could not eat. He had such a big lump in his throat, he just had to give them his food. They would show up while he was eating for about the next for days. He didn’t eat so they could. One day they had formation and while he was there he toppled right over. Out like a light. They couldn’t wake him up right away, so he was taken to a hospital. When he came to, a captain started yelling at him for drinking too much. Luckily, his men were there to inform the captain that he didn’t drink. They believed that the captain owed him an apology. When he got back, the report told his superiors that it was malnutrition. So he had to be supervised when he ate. When he would go get seconds, he would give it to the little girls the food and tell them to eat at home. When it was time for him to leave, the girls heard about it. They found him and gave him two little dolls. He still has them today. The worst part about the whole thing was that the territory was being turned over to the Russians, who were ruthless. They then went to Kemen, outside of Stuttgart. He had a nice time there and made some nice friends. The autobahn went right through the city, so they had to police the autobahn. They would stay the Burgomaster’s house. The house was emptied before he was allowed in it. But when he got in there he found a gold watch. He would return it to the lady of the house and she was very grateful. He was treated like a king. While they were there, the townsfolk had a dedication ceremony. Where there was a Swastika flag, there would then hang an American flag. During the ceremony he was �                     called forward to receive a special honor. A little girl, dressed in her Sunday best would put a ring of flowers around his neck. There wasn’t a dry eye there. (1:29:30) He was there about 3 days for a quartering party when the troops came in. While he was there, a guy came up to him screaming “Come to my house!” It was against the rules to go and they would be fined for disobeying the command, but they were willing to do it. He got to the house and they wanted to give him wine. They ended up leaving, but didn’t know what he wanted. They got themselves a German-English Dictionary to figure it out. It turns out that he had captured this guy and treated him decently and had even brought him to the American medics. He said that he wanted to pay him back. The man ended up giving him gold handled sword that he would send home. He would stay in the army until February. He would move around and ended up staying at Esslingen from August or September until February. They would live in a school building, using the cots of the Army Garrison there. There was a lot to do there. There is much chaos after the war and millions of people displaced, and none of them knew where to go or what to do. Many of them were starving too. It was chaos. These people were from all over Europe. It was rough dealing with the Russians there. He was on police duty 24 hours a day, trying to keep the peace. They got buses running and got coal brought in for hot water and coal. They got reorganized there and were scheduled to go to Japan. As they were ready and on the train to go when a colonel got on the train and told them good news: the war in Japan was over and bad news: they were staying there. So they had to get off the train and unpack everything and went back to the school house until February. In the middle of the city there was a big pool that they got working and would go down there all the time. They would even hire a masseuse once in a while. They were living like kings. The lives of the Germans were slowly getting back to normal, especially when they found out the American soldiers were not mean or anything like that. He would also have to shake up the houses, which means they would go from house to house and search for weapons. They found some too. (1:42:00) Some of the Germans did not like the American soldiers and would attempt to separate the soldiers from the group. While they were there, they were ordered to turn in their live ammunition. It went on for a while until a colonel was walking in the street and was attacked by a couple of kids in the streets. He went to help the guy and eventually live ammunition was brought back. Once day while he was out he spotted some kids trying to corner him. He clipped one in the butt and took off. Later 11 of them were rounded up and taken to interrogation. He was finally allowed to go home in late January. He would go home on an old grain boat. While he was at the school house, a captain and another soldier hat gotten into it. He broke it up and got in trouble with the captain because he had spoken out of turn. He was � then assigned to guard the other solder in the fight the whole way home, which was under arrest. While he was staying in Marseilles his gun was stolen and he had to go and get it back Going Home (1:52:50)      The trip back was awful. A motor stopped working and they had to use the compass to tell where they were going to land when they hit land. When they were taking roll call on the ship, the guy taking it suddenly got confused of which one was the prisoner and which one was the guard, because the other guy was holding the gun. The man was worried about the prisoner running away, but he convinced him otherwise. When he got home he had no ammunition left, he had shot them off. He had to pay 35 cents per round. He told them to go jump in a lake. They would be assigned to a barracks and get cleaned up. He would then get to call home to talk to his family. Two days later he was on a train to Atterbury, Indiana where he was discharged. He was given $300 and a kick on the butt goodbye. Post Duty (1:55:45)          Looking back, he lived through the depression, went into the service and he was a kid who wasn’t anything. Going into the army would change his life. He learned to get along with people. He went from having nothing to $50, clothes and it was amazing. CMTC changed his life as well. He learned discipline and how to live with people. It was a big adjustment. He came home and it was a big letdown. He spent 42 months in the service. He had to sleep in a bed by himself and it was very different. He didn’t have a job. He did eventually get one, but it was very poor pay. He felt like he was going backwards instead of forward. He would also go to school for a year at Central Michigan University. He got a 4.0 average. Uncle Sam has really treated him good since then. They take care of his health and medical bills. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KoetjeB Title A name given to the resource Koetje, Bill (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koetje, Bill Description An account of the resource Bill Koetje served in the Army during World War II. He was drafted in 1942 and initially trained as a paratrooper, but was not yet 21 and was transferred to an infantry unit, where he did well enough to stay on as a trainer rather than ship out with his unit. He was then assigned to Fort Meade, Maryland, to supervise recruits who were about to be sent overseas. He finally shipped out himself in the fall of 1944, and was assigned to the 100th Division in northeastern France. He led a machine gun section and was involved in heavy fighting against German fortifications, and was wounded and evacuated. The aid station that he was sent to was bombed, and he was sent to England. He rejoined his unit in the spring of 1945, and served with the Army of Occupation in Germany until the end of the year. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-04-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26d3c20dac47c6c5070ce96cb26513fe.m4v 9dd53964cebc6661f67f5e62d658ecf1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1dc3cf0252b06ef539372b9acfa447c2.pdf ac5a802d39681575815057f99818af1d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II Wilbert Koetje Interview Length: (01:09:40:00) Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:25:00)  Born in Marion, Michigan in 1922 on his family’s farm (00:00:25:00)  Growing up, he worked on the farm, then at a lumberyard (00:00:41:00) o He did not work in any factory, although he did work at a paper-mill in Kalamazoo, Michigan for about a month before he injured his leg and had to go to the hospital (00:01:13:00)  While he was in the hospital, Koetje decided to sign up for the Navy (00:01:47:00) o Germany had started the conflict but Koetje was not bitter about that; he was bitter when the military got involved with the Japanese (00:01:57:00)  Koetje stayed in school until the eighth grade; he started high school but never finished it (00:02:23:00) o He was supposed to have received a good education but he does not know how much good it did for him (00:02:57:00)  There were two children in his family, Koetje and his brother, which was big enough for his parents (00:03:07:00) o His parents did not marry until after they were thirty years old, so they did not as many kids as the neighbors did (00:03:17:00) o Koetje’s brother worked at a pipe plant and also knew that he would never farm (00:03:34:00)  Koetje started working when he was fourteen years old (00:03:57:00) o He had an uncle who worked at the paper mill in Kalamazoo, who Koetje got along well, so Koetje and went and asked the uncle for a job (00:04:07:00) o Before working at the paper mill, he worked at a small machine shop in Holland, Michigan (00:04:40:00) o He had an aunt who lived near Holland and Koetje lived there and a cousin who was the same age and he lived with him (00:05:04:00)  He learned to drive “before he was supposed to”; he was ten or twelve years old and he put his family’s car into the garage, but he did not stop (00:05:40:00) o He ended up knocking over a fountain and some other items (00:06:13:00) o His mother and father both drove and at the time, they owned a Model T (00:06:26:00)  When Pearl Harbor happened, Koetje and a friend were in McBain and they did not find out about the attack until night because news traveled slow (00:07:00:00) o Koetje ended up getting in a fight because he was teed off and fired up; he found out after he left the fight that his nose was skinned, so Koetje went back, trying to find the man that he had fought (00:07:20:00)  It was roughly a year and a half after Pearl Harbor that Koetje tried to enlist (00:08:13:00) �    o When he originally tired to enlist, the military would not take him and they never told him why (00:08:29:00) o They told him to just wait for the draft, which he did (00:08:46:00) He was finally drafted in 1943 (00:09:01:00) o After being drafted, Koetje went to Kalamazoo so that the military could put him in the proper branch (00:09:24:00) o He had preference for where he wanted to go and when they asked him if he wanted to join the Navy, Koetje said that he would love it (00:09:37:00)  He liked the Navy because his mother was a sailor, so he was part of a sailing family; he knew knots and stuff like that (00:09:55:00) o One of the first things that they wrote on his information was “not PO material” (not Petty Officer material), although Koetje did not know what that meant at the time (00:10:11:00) From Kalamazoo, he went to Chicago and the Great Lakes Naval Training area (00:10:37:00) o There were two men at the training area that Koetje previously knew, although he did not care much for them (00:10:49:00) o While he was in Chicago, Koetje had fleas infest his crotch and he was laid-up for a period; the Navy forced him to shave and clean up (00:11:38:00) o Because he was laid up, Koetje never saw the two men he knew again; he ended up joining a different group for training (00:12:11:00) Boot camp was very little marching, mainly because he did not have to march much in the Navy (00:12:37:00) o They did not teach him how to tie knots (00:13:01:00) o The men did receive a little bit of weapons training; Koetje had to carry a gun, although it was a dummy (00:13:07:00) o The men also did physical training “to get in shape”; Koetje believes that he was in pretty good shape when he got to boot camp, but not in as good a shape as what the Navy asked for (00:13:41:00) o The instructors placed an emphasis on discipline, which was not as easy to learn because Koetje had a head of his own (00:13:59:00)  However, Koetje does not recall getting in too much trouble (00:14:22:00) After spending about four weeks in Chicago for boot camp, Koetje went to Indianapolis for radio school (00:14:38:00) o Even though he had “not PO material” all over his record, the Navy sent him to radio school anyway, where they were going to teach him how to be a radio operator (00:15:09:00) o However, that did not work, so he went to Norfolk, Virginia (00:15:16:00) U.S.S. Davison / U.S.S. McDermott (00:15:44:00)  Koetje was not in Norfolk for long because he went aboard ship; he does not remember the name of the ship, but his records say the U.S.S. Davison, a destroyer (00:15:44:00) o While aboard the Davison, Koetje ended up going to North Africa (00:16:57:00) o The ship itself was a tin-can destroyer and when he went aboard, it sailed to Bizerte in Tunisia (00:17:05:00) � o o o o o o o o o The Davison was about three hundred feet in length and brand new (00:17:51:00) While aboard Davison, Koetje was a regular seaman; he never really had a job; eventually, they decided that he was capable of doing a lot more seamanship, so he was transferred off the ship when it returned to the United States (00:18:28:00) The trip across the Atlantic consisted of trying to dodge submarines and performing escort duty; they had about twenty cargo ships with them going to North Africa and the Davison had to protect them from torpedoes (00:19:46:00)  If the Davison saw a U-boat, then they went between the cargo ships and the torpedoes, which was suspenseful (00:20:09:00) They did encounter some U-boats on the journey and they dropped some depth charges, which Koetje calls “tin cans” (00:20:36:00)  Apart from the depth charges, the Davison also had torpedoes (00:21:01:00)  On both the journey over and the journey back, the Davison used all of its depth charges (00:21:15:00) The Germans did not sink any of the cargo ships and Koetje does not know if they managed to sink any of the U-boats, although they did manage to capture one (00:21:30:00)  The Davison was not actually involved in capturing the submarine, another sailor that Koetje knew was (00:21:41:00)  The sailor was on a destroyer escort that ended up capturing the U-boat and as it turned out, no one but the big shots received credit for the capture (00:21:48:00) On the voyage, sometimes the weather and water was rough and sometimes it was smooth (00:22:32:00) Koetje had not much experience on smaller boats on Lake Michigan, but he never really got sick once he was on the Atlantic (00:22:41:00)  However, the men around him did get sick and it was mostly a chronic seasickness (00:23:04:00) He did get off the Davison in Bizerte and walked around a good sized lake near the city (00:23:35:00)  He found out later that a friend of his, a neighbor, was near the city working on a military base (00:23:55:00)  Also, this was the first time that Koetje saw the P-61 twin-engine fighter plane (00:24:32:00)  The Davison was tied up to some British ships and some of the men got in trouble because they danced with some girls; the girls were French colonists and the Americans fought the British over them (00:25:06:00) The Davison stayed in Bizerte for three or four days then left with a convoy headed back to the United States (00:26:03:00)  When they went back through the Straits of Gibraltar, there were bottlenose dolphins swimming with the ships; this was the first time that Koetje saw fish at the surface (00:26:15:00) Going back, the convoy was attacked by quite a few German U-boats (00:26:42:00) �   The Davison did not do much shooting with the 5 inch gun; they did have the 20 mm guns that they could train down into the water (00:26:48:00) Koetje’s next ship was the U.S.S. McDermott, another destroyer, where he was made into a coxswain, which was the next higher rank (00:27:29:00) o He was a seaman first class on the Davison and a coxswain on the McDermott and then he lost the “not PO material” label (00:27:40:00)  He does not know if it was his ability to tie knots or what but he lost the label (00:28:02:00) o The McDermott eventually went through the Panama Canal to fight the Japanese (00:28:23:00) o After the Panama Canal, the McDermott went to Maui and joined up with a convoy; Koetje went to bed one night and the next morning, there were “three hundred man-o-wars” around the ship (00:28:48:00) o The men did not know where they were going because they Navy did not tell them; they knew that they were going after the Japanese fleet (00:29:17:00)  They were about eight hundred miles from Japan, but they never caught up with the Japanese fleet; the Japanese knew that the Americans were coming and they scooted out as fast as possible (00:29:31:00) o After missing the Japanese, they went back towards Hawaii and went to different places around there (00:29:51:00) o Koetje did not spend long on the McDermoyt; probably three or four months at most (00:30:14:00) o The McDermott spent most of its time in the Central Pacific and around Hawaii (00:30:46:00) After spending time on the McDermott, Koetje went back to San Francisco and saw a friend on his way back (00:31:23:00) S.S. Henry Byrd / U.S.S. Leo (00:33:06:00)  Eventually, he was transferred to the S.S. Henry Byrd, which ended up running aground and sinking (00:33:06:00) o The skipper of the Henry Byrd was a merchant marine officer and he believed that he would receive more money by going in to San Francisco a day later, so the ship waited and ended up running aground (00:33:59:00) o The men were told to abandon ship and there were thirteen hundred sailors aboard the ship (00:34:18:00) o At that time, there were women driving the buses and most of the men did not have a lot of clothes on at the time; Koetje came out with just his white hat and a pair of skivvies (00:34:40:00) o The ship had life rafts but there was so many men on them that water came up over the sides (00:35:09:00) o The Henry Byrd ran aground near they Farallon Islands, but the men were unable to get on the islands; they eventually had to get the life rafts loose and were in the water for an hour and ten minutes (00:35:30:00) o The Coast Guard eventually came out and rescued the men; on shore, they used buses to carry the men to a place to stay (00:36:36:00) �   o Koetje was aboard the Henry Byrd because it was taking him back for his next assignment (00:37:38:00) When he got back, Koetje got a twenty-day survivor leave and he spent time in San Francisco, where he saw some friends, and he saw his wife (00:37:52:00) o Eventually, the Navy put him on a train and before he left, he called his wife and told him to meet him in Chicago; however, the train skirted the city and took Koetje to Newport, Rhode Island (00:38:26:00) o In about three days, he was across the United States (00:39:08:00) At Newport, the Navy put him through a little training then put a crew together to go out to sea (00:39:13:00) o Koetje was supposed to receive some time stateside but he had to pay money the government if he stayed stateside (00:39:32:00) Next, Koetje was assigned to the U.S.S. Leo (00:40:12:00) o The Navy sent him from Newport back to Norfolk and he joined the Leo there (00:40:17:00) o The Leo was a cargo ship, an ATA (00:40:30:00) o The first load that Koetje helped load in Norfolk was beer; the entire back end of the ship was beer but he was warned not to touch any of it (00:40:42:00)  There were two seaman aboard ship from Arkansas who would steal anything; Koetje told them not to touch it and that when they got to Maui, then the two could have some of it (00:41:03:00)  The skipper asked if the two men were going to shore; when Koetje said yes, the skipper asked if they could save him a case (00:41:29:00)  Koetje said “yes” and he ended up with some and the skipper ended up with two; the beer was in military bottles, not tin cans (00:41:40:00)  They could steal the beer from the Marines, but not from their own ship (00:42:12:00) o With the Leo, Koetje went all over the Pacific; there would be about three or four days of sailing then they would stop at another island (00:42:38:00) o Koetje went to Iwo Jima, but that was not on the very first trip (00:43:26:00)  The first invasion that he took part in was Iwo Jima (00:43:43:00)  At the time, the Leo was unloading cargo, mostly fuel for the aircraft; Koetje was not sure how many barrels but they had enough that slings could pick up four barrels at a time (00:43:53:00)  This was about the only time that black people were aboard the ship; they were driving the vehicles that ferried the fuel onto the islands (00:44:37:00)  There were not many planes on the island at the time, because they were bombing the island (00:45:22:00) o Iwo Jima was the first time that the Leo was hit (00:45:34:00)  Ships were overshooting the island with their 40 mm guns and one of the men ended up dying (00:45:48:00)  An officer standing next to Koetje asked what the rounds were, because they could see the rounds coming and Koetje said that someone was shooting at them (00:46:03:00) � o o o o o o o o Koetje said that of course the officer was not scared and when another volley came over the island, he did not see the officer again (00:46:19:00) The closest that Koetje came to the Japanese was when a battlewagon (battleship) was sitting near the islands trying to get the Japanese out of their holes on the island (00:47:07:00)  Whenever the battleship fired, it moved back in the water; after two or three volleys, the ship had to reposition (00:47:50:00) After Iwo Jima, the Leo went to Okinawa (00:48:40:00)  At Okinawa, the ship carried more aircraft gasoline as well as Marines (00:48:51:00)  They unload the Marines into landing craft that the Leo carried; the land craft were mostly LCM and LCVP (00:49:13:00)  The Marines got into the landing craft by climbing down ropes on the side of the Leo (00:49:36:00) While he was at Okinawa, Koetje saw Japanese kamikazes; the Japanese were flying quite a bit of suicide planes (00:49:54:00) During Okinawa, Koetje was a gun captain and held the rank of boatswain (00:50:13:00)  He does not know how he advanced so far in rank; it was unusual for a deckhand with no education to go as far as he did (00:50:28:00)  Koetje was a gun captain for a five inch gun; he also had a 20 mm gun available and a 40 mm gun above him (00:50:52:00)  One time, a Japanese plane came in towards the ship and Koetje believes that he got a direct hit on the plane (00:51:18:00)  Usually, the planes would fly into the shrapnel but this plane came in on a glide and everyone assumed that the pilot was dead (00:52:07:00)  The men received recognition for getting a direct hit on the incoming plane (00:52:35:00) The Leo was never actually hit by kamikazes; they came close but crashed in the water (00:53:06:00)  Koetje got a dent in his helmet but that was about it (00:53:13:00)  He saw kamikazes hit other ships but he does not remember details about that (00:53:26:00) After Okinawa, the Leo ended up towing another ship, the Hinsdale, an APA (a troopship) (00:53:43:00)  The Leo ended up towing the ship over six hundred miles to another island base for repairs (00:54:08:00) Koetje only went to Okinawa once (00:54:32:00) After Okinawa, the Leo went to quite a few other places carrying cargo, including the Philippines (00:54:55:00)  The skipper said that he would like to take a ride on an ankle board, so Koetje had some men from Alabama get an airplane crash boat (00:55:40:00) �     The men ended up stealing the boat from the Air Force and they stowed the boat on the Leo and Koetje would give the skipper periodic rides on the board, which was a flat board with a rope (00:56:08:00)  One day, the skipper did not ask Koetje to take a ride, but another man did and he ended up crashing on some rocks (00:56:51:00) o While the Leo was in the Philippines, Koetje went on shore and he went to most of the places that he was not supposed to, such as going to get liquor (00:50:13:00)  One place had the roof blown completely off but the men still spent a couple of hours there (00:58:08:00) The Leo was loaded for Japan and eighty miles away, preparing to invade the islands, when they received word that the Japanese had surrendered (00:58:33:00) o That was when the men heard about the atomic bomb; the men only heard that something terrible had happened and it was only after the second bomb dropped that the Japanese surrendered (00:59:04:00) The Leo still ended up going to Japan after the surrender (00:59:24:00) o Koetje went on shore while the Leo was in Japan; he and some other men ended up going to some museums and Koetje ended up buying a beautiful wooden boat but when he returned to the Leo, he could not keep it (00:59:50:00) o He did not end up paying much attention to the damage from the Air Corps’ bombing campaign (01:01:03:00) o Koetje did not think too much of the Japanese civilians; they, in turn, gave the Americans anything (01:01:32:00)  However, the civilians were still pretty beat up (01:01:52:00) o The Leo made only one trip to Japan (01:02:20:00) After Japan, the Leo went a lot of the islands in the area; Koetje’s last trip was to Indochina and then to Tsingtao (01:02:39:00) o They were carrying Chinese soldiers back to China (01:03:37:00) o The Chinese soldiers were all men, but some were boys, and about every third on had a gun; they were well behaved on the ship (01:04:06:00) o The Americans told the soldiers to let them know if any of the soldiers were sick and when they got to Tsingtao, they were missing about thirteen or fourteen of the soldiers (01:04:39:00)  If a soldier showed any sickness, then he was thrown overboard (01:05:07:00) o Tsingtao was the first time that the Americans saw Russian-made ships, which were beautifully made; however, the Americans did not have any contact with Russian sailors (01:05:37:00) Following the voyage to Tsingtao, Koetje went back to the United States (01:06:05:00) o He went to Bellingham, Washington but he did not have enough points to get out of the military, so he spent from November until February at the base (01:06:18:00) o Koetje was discharged from the military on February 1st and he went back home to Michigan (01:07:00:00) �Post-Military Life (01:07:16:00)  When he got back to Michigan, the first thing that Koetje did was went to see his girlfriend (01:07:16:00) o Eventually, he took a job working with another man, who Koetje had known before the war, as carpenters (01:07:42:00) o Koetje spent a couple of years in Grand Rapids and married before he moved north and into the country (01:08:15:00)  Joining the Navy was probably worth doing (01:09:01:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KoetjeW Title A name given to the resource Koetje, Wilbert (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koetje, Wilbert Description An account of the resource Wilbert Koetje was born in Marion, Michigan in 1922. After failing in his first attempt to enlist, he was drafted in 1943 and served in the Navy. Even after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, Koetje waited a year before enlisting. After the military denied his enlistment, Koetje waited for the draft; once drafted, he served in the Navy. He initially served on a destroyer, the USS Davison, on convoy duty in the Atlantic and Mediterranean. He then switched to another destroyer, the USS McDermott, which patrolled out of Hawaii. After several months, he was sent back to California on a transport ship, the SS Henry Byrd, which had to be abandoned off San Francisco. After that, he was assigned as a gun captain aboard a transport ship, the SS Leo, and participated in the campaigns at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, took a load of troops to Japan for the occupation, and helped repatriate Chinese soldiers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-09 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/90a91f3de7dfa5e958edaeb9839ee4a3.jpg 61c47fa90010a50ed6da2aae51ab2ad8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KolenbranderHarold_Photo01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Kolenbrander, Harold Description An account of the resource Harold Kolenbrander, Dean of College Branding Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/755c4591ef9e758a077131b3c05943df.jpg 128f8b16f3da28597c250af3fceb71f0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KolenbranderHarold_Photo02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Kolenbrander, Harold Description An account of the resource Harold Kolenbrander, Dean of College Branding Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/337cebdbe3e3f338ee94839588341ffc.jpg 8506715e1a7fa5029dc258ed5ce7b262 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KolenbranderHarold_Photo03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Kolenbrander, Harold Description An account of the resource Harold Kolenbrander, Dean of College Branding Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d09b41a53fa7505a9f577eb8bfd6fdc3.jpg 175adc863901c11c4d396f848c12a635 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. 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Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ef003427ed3d70bc6cbe4fe9f1164ff.pdf 6dc0aa51e7b996d9160bd80db84def90 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. 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[Low German] Die Cronica van der hilliger stat van Coellen [folium 186] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_186Chronicles1499 Description An account of the resource One leaf from Kölnische Chronik [Low German], Die Cronica van der hilliger stat van Coellen, by Chronicles: Cologne. Printed in Cologne by Johann Koelhoff, the Younger, on August 23, 1499. Illustrated with colored woodcut. [GW 6688; ISTC ic00476000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Cologne: Johann Koelhoff Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource de Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1499 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chronicles: Cologne Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78eb02a57e1b42a13aa640a3a6a09f4c.jpg 110ee17fab861dc1f4420473a5a360d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. ML3930 .C44 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0153 Title A name given to the resource Konigskinder Description An account of the resource Binding of Konigskinder, by Anna Alice Chapin, published by Harper & Brothers, 1911. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1911 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/81100e2a8e4baed52130447ea43e8744.mp4 b20525354c75a0f82ffd9e341180cba3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5dba19c8fde8253c535f853153e5fa0.pdf 020168dcd62294edf50b3010c7f72eb2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: If we could begin, Ambassador, with your background before you entered the Military? KONSIN SHAH: When Japan invaded China, I was in college studying electronic engineering. And I was in Shanghai. And then Japan bombed and I thought terrible holocaust in my people and so, I wanted to join the Air Force. But then, I was the only son of a widow, the Military thought they could exempt me but then I got my mother's consent to join. And then I left Shanghai by way of Hong Kong, Hanoi, and then to go to the Aviation School. But then the Aviation school did not fly me because the Aviation school had provisions that only sons do not fly. And so I joined the Army. The Army had no prescriptions. And I was trained in pack. But after the battle of Kwin Kwan [?], then the Air Force changed, their personnel, their regulation and they said that only sons could fly, but only with parental condoned. And my mother wrote to the Chief of the Air Force that she allowed me to fly. When I was in Yunnanyi, we had, Yunnanyi was attacked by the Japanese bombers and the pursuit planes stationed in Thailand and our airplanes were burnt. We were without airplane and without gasoline. And we flew maybe 2 hours of 3 hours a week and down to 20 minutes a week. We could have been trained as pilots in a year or more, but it took 3 �years. But then as I was graduating, the American Lend Lease came into effect. And I was the third group to leave for America. And I thought the American volunteer group landed in Mitna [?], in Yunnanyi. And I was the supervisor of daily Routine and we welcomed them to a feast. Then we were on our way to India and flew to the United States. But I was kept as an instructor, teaching mainly Chinese cadets and sort of American cadets, because at that time I had the instrument instructor’s qualification. Then the American pilots which the American pilots does not have, I checked out the Chinese and American students to fly an instrument toward the last year I thought that the war was going ahead very well. We were terribly afraid that we could not join combat. We will be skipping combat. FRANK BORING: If you would, I realize this is somewhat painful for you, but if you could recall your personal recollection of the bombing of Shanghai, anytime you're ready. FRANK BORING: If you could recall the first bombings of Shanghai? KONSIN SHAH: I think it was on August 13 and the Japanese bombers came from aircraft carrier or they had come from Taiwan. And they indiscriminately bombed the housing. And Shanghai is a very densely populated area and one bomb claimed hundreds or teams of hundreds of lives, and so the terror created in the population is vast. And they think the terror could make us surrender, but no, the leaders of the nation were determined to fight to the end. FRANK BORING: Did you walk through the city after the bombing itself? KONSIN SHAH: Sure. FRANK BORING: What did you see? �KONSIN SHAH: I, at first, I thought the Shanghai people instituted fight the aggression team, and I was a student. I, at the age of 17, I was able to drive and one fellow student and I drove toward dusk from the international quarters, then we delivered the Shanghai people called the comforting goods, food, clothing and particularly this was in September and October, they, the vest that keep the soldiers warm before daybreak, bring back the wounded soldiers, into the international area. And then we would be able to [?] that the people's homes and that they are indiscriminately bombed. This was behind the front line. Because the line is in the bund but after the bund the Japanese bombers, got too terrible, terrible, for me. I saw this day to day. And then I decided to join the Air Force regardless, they take me or not. FRANK BORING: As an eye witness, any of your memories of the bombing itself, your own personal, one of the things that somebody said, this feeling of watching the bombs drop, and the explosion, if you could describe in your own words, eye witness to this? KONSIN SHAH: When in Shanghai, we travelled at night, to the war zones and the bombing we escaped, but in the interior, 1927, 1928, I saw a great deal of bombing, particularly in Hong Yau [?], I was in the railway station, waiting for a train, then the Jing bow sounded, and I ran only a hundred yards or two hundred yards before the bombs exploded. Right in the railway yard, but then after several hours of repairs, the train pulled though, where I saw the corpse even laid beheaded. There was too much damage done. And they take time to clean the past. FRANK BORING: What was your personal reaction to witnessing all of this? As a Chinese person, what was your reaction? KONSIN SHAH: The hatred is never, never retired. �FRANK BORING: Did you feel that you had some outlet that you could do something about it? How did you think you were going to write this wrong? KONSIN SHAH: By joining the Air Force. The Air Force had rejected me at that time, 1927, 1928. And I was in army training for the tanks. But through our, the Army had trained the tank crew at their mechanized forces school and we travelled through Way Ning [?] and Diluto [?] and through that way I suffered a lot of bombing. This is the rail head and we suffered very much bombing. But I luckily escaped and each time if I had time, I joined the rescue crew but the train was waiting and got through and I had to take the train because I was under military orders. FRANK BORING: Could you describe your experience in the Army. KONSIN SHAH: Yes, in Nu Do, our buildings were scattered along the hillside and the bombing was rather difficult and we suffered the bombing very scarcely until the President [?] came to a conference and we students stood guard. And then the bombing, they had intelligence, and the bombing was suddenly through the vicinity. And our mechanized school students suffered 2 casualties. 2 deaths and a number of people wounded but I then called the Generalissimo to see. FRANK BORING: As a cadet, you were training in a war zone. KONSIN SHAH: Yes. FRANK BORING: If you could explain that please. KONSIN SHAH: When we were trained as an Army officer or an Air Force officer, we were trained in the war zone. We were in the thick of it. �FRANK BORING: What was your first encounter in the Army, what was your first encounter with the Japanese in battle? KONSIN SHAH: Kun Yin Guam [?] in the summer of 1940, I was a probation officer and we were taken to the two hundredth division, a mechanized division. And we were probation officers, we could look but couldn't fight. And then the Japanese were cut off from their supplies and then the Japanese conquered territories were recovered. We saw the prisoners taken and then we saw one prisoner who, when the Army cook, the prisoner was tied up, and the Army cook was going to look after him. And then the soldiers will take other prisoners. And on their way back the cook killed the man. And then he was court marshalled but then the hatred was tremendous. They would risk their lives by killing the Japanese. The officers had better sense but the men, they were deeply in hatred of the Japanese. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 1 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah describes his background before becoming involved with the American Volunteer Group (AVG) and his experiences in Shanghai during the time of the bombings. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a62d5c93f06e050f76ec1809d7f26cdd.mp4 ffb1ea4dc69c0f426c3927d45a56ff32 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3052db131b7a0c4d2a2d1dbb4887190.pdf d0e1ef1263b6731b9959d78f0536bc76 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: At this point, I would like to get some more detail… KONSIN SHAH: In Kum Quan [?], the Japanese Air Force had little interference, I don't know why, the 1940, they could have sailed south, but their aircraft carriers could have easily taken off and bombed the vicinity but the Japanese Air Force was scarcely interfering. So our Army had to take them. FRANK BORING: What was it like to be a soldier in the Chinese Army? KONSIN SHAH: We started as private to 2nd class in the military academy and then the, our salary was $9.60., which at the exchange rate of the early part of the war was 3 to 1 and $3.00 to American money. But then the inflation got off and in the Army we were… we find it difficult to eat rice. This was in the southern provinces where people eat rice. We would be content if we eat rice, and so in our grand maneuver, the cars and the tanks moved to the country and then we had to buy the rice and then we had no money. I personally raised money for the squadron. And so, afterwards, this was interest free, and afterwards I paid back and the China chemical works had a branch in Nu Do and I was - we had family interest and I had to ask for money and then we paid it and so getting to eat the rice is very difficult to eat the rice. �FRANK BORING: You mentioned the grand maneuver, what was that? KONSIN SHAH: We had , in each graduation, would join the maneuver, twenty or more tanks, coupled, maybe 100 cars going to the country side and the maneuver and since we were in the countryside, we could buy rice in the country and then against buying in Tong. FRANK BORING: What was a tank battle like with the Japanese? KONSIN SHAH: But then the tanks we used were T-9, the Soviets tanks, they were 9-ton tanks and then before that, we had the 6 ton tanks from the Victors The highway built, the bridge the maximum load is 20 tons and so the armor must be lighter than that and then from the T-9 tanks in the battle of Kum Yan Quan [?], then the Japanese had run out of heavy caliber guns and they were using machine guns and rifles, but they kind of heard us, and so we persevered. FRANK BORING: Why did you want to join the Air Force? KONSIN SHAH: I was a student in the engineering course and then in that day all of China had 40,000 or 50,000 college students and college students weren't very many and then engineering students came in few. So I realized that my knowledge to the mechanics and the mathematics was helpful in the Air Force and so I graduated smoothly. FRANK BORING: Did you have a desire to fly or is there a particular reason why the Air Force was a challenge to you or… KONSIN SHAH: Yes, it is a challenge. Because I have altophobia. When I mounted on a building that was 30 stories high, I was afraid. My sense kept me going forth. But, physically, I was afraid. �FRANK BORING: I guess, I have to know, why airplanes, why would you plan to get into an airplane? KONSIN SHAH: But the airplane is a good machine to fight, because I stated because my engineering training, my mathematics could help. And later, as I was flying President Chiang Kai-shek out of Kunming to Taipei, we were flying at 9,000 feet and the top cover and lower cover and the beacons were torn away and then the navigation was extremely difficult. 1400 and some miles, 7 hours and 20 minutes flight and there was no check point and the nearest broadcast station is from Hong Kong.350 miles away, there's no use, and so I did a perfect navigation job. And so my mathematical and engineering senses gave me the result. FRANK BORING: Can you describe for us the beginning stages of your entry into the Air Force, in other words the transition from the army into the Air Force. KONSIN SHAH: Yes, I graduated from the Army and I joined the Air Force as a student and then like all students, we had time for ground school and the drill and then the little time for flying. I was in Yunnanyi and then the new airplanes did not arrive because our old airplanes were shot up by Japanese bombers, and for less than 6 months, we had very little flying and afterwards, after the AVG groups came in, I was, we had 60 hours in 1 year. And then we moved it to Kunming. We had then, then Kunming had a little more gasoline. But then we were on orders to go to the United States and we stopped flying because the training could be done to the others and we waited for a few months. In 1941, no in 1942, by February, we went to India and on to the United States. But the training was doubtful every day. If one week you had some gasoline and the other week you don't have, they you stop. And that was before the Lend Lease came to China. Because before the Lend Lease came to China, Japan had, they had the purchase �of American engines, American, not really war planes, American engines and American ammunition and they could haul it on their own boats. But the Japanese Navy controlled the Pacific Ocean, we couldn't. FRANK BORING: Could you describe for us your first flight, the first time you actually got into an airplane and was able to fly? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, because at the age of 17, I drove a car, and the airplanes were not very much faster. The airplanes we used, elementary flying, was no faster than the car, and I sort of, it was sort of easy for me. But then most of the cadets, they couldn't come near a car, they find it difficult. But then faster airplanes, in my training, I took care of every lecture and every document that I could get hold of and then my training is very smooth. I did not have ground loops, accidents in the training, but in war it's different. FRANK BORING: How were the other Chinese pilots, Chinese cadets, what the training like, did you have strong enthusiasm or were there people that got discouraged after a little while? KONSIN SHAH: No, No. The Chinese cadets were always ready except one or two that they didn't care too much. Every person is very eager. It was our national shame to be invaded by a people rather small to our, in our population standards. We are very eager to get this right. FRANK BORING: One of the things that we found in our other interviews, with some of the Tigers, the pilots is that there is a certain sense of wanting to fly, there's something about this as opposed to being a Navy man or Army man, or whatever. In your conversations with the other cadets, or just in your conversations, was there different reasons for them to want to fly, was there a sense of being aviators, which was something new to China, did you find that there was a spirit, that you �were aviators, and not Army or Navy, or anything along that line? KONSIN SHAH: In our war lasted eight years, but toward the other part the later four years of the war things could be stated as an air force coming into being. And then, the air attraction were prevalent. The early stages of war, the Army, Navy and Air Force were sort of equal, they were poorly equipped and they were poorly staffed and so the wish to revenge is the same but the Army and the Navy and Air Force are sort of equal and then toward the end of the war, the aviator they were, contributed very much. The Army could do less. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 2 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah discusses his transition from serving in the Chinese Army to joining the Air Force and his recollection of his first flight. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d15006935cdf92eb8ef791cbeef8cbca.mp4 c827ff8e7b5a92ece0ae2427510424f2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fce6d4a55e4ff592653472b2c74fa14.pdf 68c7b7bf67e4e155c58c7216ee029000 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: During the period of the late 1930's, 37, 38, there were different training groups that came into China, were you involved with any of these training groups, or did you have, who were you trained by? KONSIN SHAH: At that time, in 1938, the training was entirely American advisors. Only in the 1928 or 29 the Soviets came in to aid the C-15's and the C-16's. That was to the far end of the China's Sing Camp (Sinkiang [?]). FRANK BORING: Excuse me, is it 1929 or 38, 39? KONSIN SHAH: 1928, 29. FRANK BORING: Ok. My apologies. Please continue. KONSIN SHAH: And in 1928 or 1929, the Soviets came in with the C15's and the C16's and the training was at the far end of our country, in Sinkiang [?]. And I had no contact with them. And then when I returned to the United States, when I returned from the United States in 1944, the Soviets are long gone, because the Soviets got home in 1941. �FRANK BORING: Did you have any contact with or hear of your fellow pilots that trained either with the Italians or Russians, or any of that group? Did you have any contact with people that were trained? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, we are the 13th class. And I was graduated from the 14th class because I was chased away and then came back and the 12th class had more people trained in the Soviet airplanes. And I think they're all gone. Because the Soviet airplanes are very short range. And then the accidental rate is very high and down to 1940, there is no Soviet airplanes in operation. FRANK BORING: When did you first hear about the AVG? KONSIN SHAH: I heard that a few months before I actually encountered the unit, a few months, and in the Air Force, I was the only person who subscribed to the Times. And the Times said that American Lend Lease to Britain will be turned to China. And so and so forth, that the training of the airmen and so forth, but not the AVG. and then through our officers, we heard the AVG. And in months, they came into being. FRANK BORING: What was your first reaction to seeing the shark’s teeth and the airplanes arriving, and where were you too? KONSIN SHAH: But I was in the Yunnanyi and we think that the squadron leader is Olson and I was one of the few cadets that spoke English and then I was sort of interpreting, and then so in the beginning I thought that if we had the same airplanes, we could easily fly. And then, in 1954, I was able to command the reconnaissance units. And I had F-86 Sabre jet. We had no training. We had no two-seat trainers. And only we read the book and taxied around and flew off. FRANK BORING: Could you, that's incredible. �KONSIN SHAH: The Chinese pilot and the American pilot are the same. But the shock of sufficient knowledge, or had been unable to read English, that's very difficult. FRANK BORING: If you could repeat? KONSIN SHAH: With our engineering and the mathematical training, I think a Chinese pilot is equal to the American pilot that could fly an airplane. But short of this, in especially, the Chinese pilot does not read English, that's a wholly different, mi-handicap. FRANK BORING: Could you describe the American training program in China, the training program that you were under to fly, what were the different stages, and how well did you get along with the instructors? KONSIN SHAH: In our, in the Chinese part of my training, there were only American jet pilots. Our pilots, our Chinese pilots served as an instructor and then the check pilots. I had the knowledge of English and Chinese and so I passed it. They're easy. But then the students who did not understand the English, found it reasonably difficult. And then the, our gasoline and our airplanes, they don't seem to get ready at any time. But then our training could not go off on schedule. Then in American training, everything went off on schedule. That's a totally different scene. FRANK BORING: Why was there a difference between the two? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, if we flew at least one hour a day, compared to the Chinese flight, 20 minutes or 40 minutes a week, you think some experience gotten is forgotten. Some experience gotten is forgotten. FRANK BORING: How important? What is a check pilot? We need to know what a check pilot is. �KONSIN SHAH: Yes, a check pilot is, they, our Chinese instructors get us the training, but the check pilot’s opinion is for how much our capability matches the least of American standards. FRANK BORING: What is a check pilot? KONSIN SHAH: They take us to flight. FRANK BORING: A check pilot is..... I need you to say..... KONSIN SHAH: A check pilot is a pilot who takes the Chinese students to flight and then tells what his capability is by the minimum American standard. FRANK BORING: Very good. How important was knowing English to your training and how much more difficult for the Chinese pilots who could not speak English? KONSIN SHAH: In the United States, the difference is pronounced. Each flight like I, I will assist the instructor to explain to the other Chinese cadets and then if I flew a multi-engine plane, my instructor could leave me with other students and we never got on the same airplane, except for check rights. Because the two airplanes are information and we need the English speaking students to ride the other airplanes. Just to for safety. FRANK BORING: I realize my question may seem ignorant, but what I'm trying to get at for the film is the difficulty that the Chinese pilots had in learning some of the techniques because they were, all the training was in English. And if you couldn't speak English, it made the job even harder. KONSIN SHAH: Oh yes. �FRANK BORING: So this is what I need from you so that the audience can then understand that learning English made it easier for you to do it but the Chinese pilots that couldn't speak English or read English, it was very difficult for them. If you could talk about the added difficulty to your already difficult training, you see, as I see it, and the lack of gasoline and everything else, but the fact that the English part also made it even more difficult. KONSIN SHAH: In China, the American jet pilots, they had a ride with the Chinese with the Chinese students and then they couldn't make the Chinese students understand. And so they fell into difficulties, but in America, the explanation is done by American instructors. When and if I am among this student group, I explain and I have been a sort of a cold teacher. In our middle school, in Chinese middle school, and then I had the patience of explaining to the Chinese students but if I weren't there I think the difficulty is by far more significant. FRANK BORING: We're going to ask of you now, is that, first of all, after you trained, as a pilot, and were ready to go into battle, what was your experience, or you r knowledge of, the Chinese air pilots that had already been fighting the Japanese before AVG. What was their ability and what was their experience? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, when I went to, I came back from United States and going into combat in China, I was a, when I came back from the United States into China to combat, I was in Chinese American composite wings and the Chinese pilots were mixed with American pilots and then I was flying the B-25's. The B-25's were crude by Chinese and American pilots. And so our tactical behavior followed the American Air Force group - that was of my first impression. And then we fellow officers, we could contribute a little more, because then our… the fellow officers, had been mostly trained, in the United States, 12, 13, 14th class, and then we could position the maps and the [?] and came into detailed intelligence and then �we showed the American pilots that we could do a little more. And then the 4th bomb squadron, the American pilots immediately they held our briefing in our operation room because our maps are more in detail and translated into English and so we could do a little more, but then in United States we could visit the intelligence library. We allied officers could visit the intelligence library and from the reading I got a lot of experience prior to my joining the Chinese Air Force, the staff school and so forth, and so the reading helped me to gain the knowledge of commanding. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 3 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah discusses when he first heard of the American Volunteer Group, the American training program in China, and his knowledge of the Chinese air pilots that fought the Japanese before the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b2bc054ee7d4ce14a690c8146e11e7a6.mp4 59dddff1ef195d57d8609dceeedc7594 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e1d547da1469a160ff482a9eca152082.pdf 3e09aee6600b91c8d1648e1900e26e84 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: If you could describe for us the differences and the problems between the Japanese Air Force and the Chinese Air Force before Pearl Harbor? KONSIN SHAH: Before the Americans came in, our Chinese Air Force vs. the Japanese Air Force, it's a lot of sacrifice. It is certain death to join the air force. Before my joining the Air Force, I had a chance to help a professor to Cambridge. Financing him. And I sent him off on the mission connecting Kunming and Hanoi. And he said I will finish my course in 2 years and come back to you. I said I will be an ash. The Japanese Air Force is so organized, so strong and the Morgan [?] airplanes to join the Air Force is quoting certain death and in my class I think the 13th and the 14th class, half of the members are wiped off in the Japanese war. The other half, the remnants suffered casualties in the anti-Communist war. FRANK BORING: The earlier classes before yours, did you hear of or did you hear stories of… KONSIN SHAH: Yes, but now, in our earlier classes these are my instructors. And so, in the 20th of this month we saw the funeral. We went to the funeral of a Gen. Yu Willow, Gen. Yu is the pilot who flew in August 14 and he bombed the Dismitsu [?]. �Anchored near the Shanghai and he was wounded and he was one of the old heroes who survived and so he's 80. And so we go to the funeral and pay respect to him. And he was, I think he was maybe not the lone member but he is a number of pilots who is very few who survived the war. FRANK BORING: Why was it so dangerous for the Chinese Air Force pilot to go into battle against the Japanese? KONSIN SHAH: We had inferior equipment. We were outnumbered. We didn't have the ground Morgan [?] equipment and we had no instrument flying technique. And lots of combat after the combat, a lot of airplanes were lost due to bad weather. Because in America the instrument flying instructor school started in 1943 and I was the first Chinese student to attend it. FRANK BORING: Why was it so dangerous for Chinese Air Force pilots to go up against the Japanese? KONSIN SHAH: The Chinese Air Force pilots, in the old days were leading a very dangerous life. They had inferior equipment, they were outnumbered and they didn't have the Morgan ground support and then they lacked the instrument flying. So many of the pilots after combat, they were lost to bad weather. And the American training, the instrument flying instructor school were started in 1943 and I was the first pilot to join the training. I was the 5th class. 3 of us we participated. And later on, I was head of our instrument training group. FRANK BORING: If we could go back to that day in which you saw the arrival of the AVG, could you tell us in detail your personal recollections and your personal feelings upon watching the airplanes arrive and you're going out to greet them and the banquet, the food that you ate? �KONSIN SHAH: When the AVG first arrived in Yunnanyi, I think they were peculiarly dragged in street clothes and because they took off from Burma, it's a very hot country, and landed in Yunnanyi, and not very warm and not very cool country and they came in a shirt. And so we greeted the pilots, we looked at, they came in a shirt. And so we welcomed them all the same. All the same. It was a great lift to our morale. If these pilots could fly, we could fly, but only if we got the airplanes. And then the… some of our students could think differently, because they didn't know English. For me, this was all the same. And then, later on, they were convinced that they were equal. FRANK BORING: Could you describe the events itself, and the meeting of these people and since you spoke English, you got a chance to talk to them, and then you said there was something that happened later, involving food, or you're getting together? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, we welcomed them all the same and then we, I had, I was a supervisor of daily rations. And then, I got hold of a truck. I burned my own gasoline and we go to a Shaquen [?], Shaquen [?] is to the west, it is 2 proven kilometers to the west and bought the rations and bought the expensive food and brought them back. In Ying? Yang Yee, my cousin was a contractor. He was the head of the contractor. And he had the trucks, and I borrowed the trucks and went off to Shaquen [?] and brought back expensive food and then one thing, we had , the AVG had never eaten black pears, black pears. Because the pears were so conserved. They looked back. If peeled, they were equally fresh. And they had black pears. FRANK BORING: What was the dinner like? What was the arrangement like? And what was the interplay between the Americans and the Chinese? KONSIN SHAH: We had difficulty to acquire forks and knives. And the wartime service call would come in and they had a hard time �acquiring the knives and forks and then we had no problem in China, so the dinner went off very well. Only, then I had the knowledge of eating Western food in Shanghai. I had the knowledge of the kind of food which attracts American pilots. Not the shark's fin. Not the shark's fin, tonight you will have the shark's fin. You're, by this time in '91 you were all accustomed to Chinese food, but then this was 1941. And the American pilots wouldn't eat shark's fin and so I shunted them. FRANK BORING: I know you've become very close friends with this group to this day, what were your first impressions of these men? One of the things we found particularly, it seems, is that you're telling me about the shirts, it surprised you. Tell us more about that please. KONSIN SHAH: But then, after the first victory, the prestige of American pilots zoomed. Because I think the Japanese and American pilots would fight equally and at a par. But then, the Japanese pilots, by then, we found that the Japanese pilots are their incentive, their discipline was to follow the leaders. But they had no personal quality. Suppose they had personal quality, this is subdued and but the American pilots, overhauled, the Japanese pilots. FRANK BORING: At this first meeting, when you were having your dinner and whatnot, having a chance to talk to them, you spoken with them, what were your first impressions of these men? KONSIN SHAH: I think they came from Navy, from Army and from the civilian and so at first, we thought this was a conglomerate of pilots , they were after the glory of the thing but this glory we considered fighting for democracy. And fighting for the independence of China. So I wrote to pilots this date, you helped us to maintain our independence. �FRANK BORING: Were there any particular Tigers that stuck out at that first meeting you had? Was there any particular one that you remember or any story that you can recall about that dinner? KONSIN SHAH: No because this was before my visit to the United States and I understood the United States a great deal less. A great deal less. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 4 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah describes the differences and problems between the Chinese Air Force and the Japanese Air Force before Pearl Harbor, in addition to the arrival of the AVG and his first impressions of the Flying Tigers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a4e5a48f56b44510e8fb8e5c2d6674b8.mp4 9b4dc8aedb96b661fbfef5b433fd906f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3bad5cc992b6bb0ab8197cd73f7317c6.pdf 1ad26d3adc1dd9eefb5190276f626f15 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: Yunnanyi and Kunming? KONSIN SHAH: Yunnanyi. Yes, in 1941. 1941 the one squadron landed in Yunnanyi and one squadron landed in Kunming. FRANK BORING: And one squadron flew into Yunnanyi. So that way we have that clarified through history. KONSIN SHAH: When the AVG first came to Yunnan one squadron flew to Kunming, and one squadron flew to Yunnanyi, which is 120 miles west of Kunming and later on, whether these two groups merged or something, then I don't know. In a few months, I flew to the United States. FRANK BORING: Do you recall the first flight of the AVG, the first battle? KONSIN SHAH: Yes. FRANK BORING: Make sure you state the first battle of the AVG. KONSIN SHAH: The first battle of the AVG took place in November just after their arrival. But the siren sounded and we took the planes off the… our trainer planes got off to the west, and then we returned, the bombs never came, the bombs never came. And �then on the morrow, I heard the big bang, because Yunnanyi is separate from Kunming, and the news came later. And then I heard that 6 airplanes were found. There were 6. Japanese airplanes were found. When Japanese Air Force bombed the Kunming, a few months before, my mother who was living in Kunming, got off to the eastern gate and she had only existed the gate not too far when the bombs fell. And her body was covered by tons of soil, but then the soil was moved and she was unhurt. And then in a few months, my mother, she run from Kunming to the north gate, and then the bombs never came, so Kunming got the news that a victory was held and then in Yunnanyi, we got the news tomorrow. And so we celebrated with the AVG boys. FRANK BORING: What was your personal reaction when you heard the news that Kunming was bombed? KONSIN SHAH: I think the first reaction was the American prestige of the airmen was very high. And secondly, our hopes to win the war is relatively certain because at that time the Americans state didn't declare was against Japan, this was in November. But then after the November 7th, we, I was very studious in Geography and History. And I knew that the American, the Japanese force, when entangled with American power, they could never win. No. In 1940, the Japanese press, they called their steel industry was producing eight million tons a year, eight million tons a year, but when the United states mobilized, this was 30 million a year. By the end of the war it was a hundred million a year. We students of geography could predict that Japan went and tangled when American power could never win. FRANK BORING: What do you think the AVG's first victory meant to the Chinese people? �KONSIN SHAH: The AVG's first victory sounded much more important in Kunming than in [?]. But then after a few months, they were stationed in [?]. They wiped off a Japanese bombers time after time. Then the whole country, is the morale, was lifted. They saw hopes that if we are determined, we could win the war. They a few days sooner, or a few days later. FRANK BORING: Where do you think the AVG lies in terms of Chinese history, where do they fit into this period of Chinese history? KONSIN SHAH: The AVG's story could be revived in Chinese mainland. Because AVG's story is little known in Taiwan. Taiwan is then a Japanese colony. But the Korean War kept United States and China sort of a, incommunicable. If we, if China is reunited in a democratic way, the AVG's story could be widely published and those who survived being the age of 55 and on up, in Kunming, in Chengdu, in Chungking, they could remember. But then inferior to that age group, there is little known, there is very little known. FRANK BORING: From your perspective, you have done many things in your life, you have accomplished a great deal. You also have been a student of Chinese history. I'm looking at the whole spectrum, I guess that I'm looking for is that very brief moment of one year, in both American and Chinese history, is very unique, I'm wondering from your very personal perspective, where do you think AVG fits in the whole spectrum of Chinese history? KONSIN SHAH: China's war of independence largely is to trade space for time. But, Japanese Air Force could before they take the space, exercises bombing to our deepest or greatest terror, but then the AVG came and stopped the bombing. That held the determination of our people and of our leaders. Our leadership does not hesitate but our people said that the bombing of cities, day after day, day after day, we couldn't �tolerate but then the AVG came in and stopped the bombing. That was a change of the opinion from the leadership to the population that this war could be won. FRANK BORING: From your own, you didn't know Chennault at all at this time, is that correct? KONSIN SHAH: No, I came into a Chinese-American composite wing and I knew Chennault. And only briefly. Only briefly, but then within a year, I was stationed to. FRANK BORING: Of Madame Chiang Kai-shek's involvement in the AVG, do you know it? Could you explain a little bit more about that? What was her role at the AVG? KONSIN SHAH: Madame Chiang Kai-shek's official title was the secretary general to the Aviation Council. And she took care of the acquisition of airplanes and training of pilots where the Generalissimo didn't have time. And then, Madame Chiang spoke very much more English, then the Generalissimo. And she had a, not a free hand, but she had mostly counseling of the aviation matter in Generalissimo day to day work. And then the AVG boys came in and from the start, she was informed of the story because President Roosevelt gave a Lend Lease Plan to China. And then the AVG group and so from the very start she was very close to General Chennault, and to the staff. And if by Chinese saying, she was the Foster Mother of the AVG group. FRANK BORING: This particular question, I think is very important to this project because there have been too many misconceptions and too many things said about Chiang Kai-shek and the Western Press and the Western, this is an opportunity to set the records straight. One thing that I have seen in my research is that he had a task that is very difficult for anyone in any time. If you could describe the different problems that he had to deal with �from the invasion of the Japanese, the land of having to give up space for time, the equipment, the fact that the Burma Road was not a super highway, but you didn't have airplanes, I realize that this is a very large question, but if you could address the difficulties that Generalissimo and Chiang Kaishek had, in the Sino-Japanese war? And also the internal problems also, the Communist, there was a time when the warlords were still somewhat powerful, I realize it is a very large questions, but if you could address this. KONSIN SHAH: When Japan invaded China in 1937, this was after their invasion of the North Eastern Provinces in 1931. The Japanese had the 2nd largest Army. The 2nd largest Air Force. And their Navy, they stealthily constructed so many dread knots and aircraft carriers, which the United States didn't know. And then, we, in our revolution of Dr. Sun Yatsen, we started in 1930 -- 1924 and in 1925 with 3,000 rifles bearing to the north. And in 1927, they conquered Nanking. And then they went to the north. China is subordinated to many, many warlords. Each of them backed by the foreign power that had primary interest in it. In Yunnan, they had the French equipment. In the Northeastern countries, they had the Japanese equipment, and the central provinces they had English, and so in collecting the Chinese Army, we didn't have an Army to a sort of unified in equipment. So in 1937, the Chinese Army had 8 divisions trained from German advisors. From German advisors, and that 8th division was mostly used in defense of Shanghai. And then the warlords could be persuaded to fight the Japanese. And then there is Communist. The Communist are determined to conquer China. The Communist's combined forces with the Nationalist government and they didn't do much fighting. After the Chinese Army was routed by Japanese Army, they would collect the guns. They would collect the guns. And so, the Chiang Kai-shek had the internal problem, plus the Chinese Communists. And so in 1931, when Japan took the �Northeastern provinces, Chiang Kai-shek had the determination that to defend the outer invasion must be after the pacification of the interior. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 5 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah describes the first battle of the American Volunteer Group, the bombing of Kunming, and his perspective on the AVG's place in Chinese history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14b9c85944e31c97ea3e17c1283df31f.mp4 cdfcb3036daffb2030e2454862f1c10f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30b0207e9483f32b8103ed85cf9c195e.pdf 32964974e907e1fbd8c721d1412262e6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] KONSIN SHAH: During the war against the Japanese in 1937, the Governor of Shangtu [?] betrayed the Republic. And then the Army leader of Su Tran [?] betrayed the public. The Republic. Short of the Communist making troubles, the Communist started to occupy north of Shanghai. North of Shanghai. This is the route of the Nanking government. The Nanking government started to gain power before 1934 - in Nanking, Shanghai and Shangtu [?] - a very small triangle that was the rich country. And then the Chinese Communists were in 1939, 1940, they would encroach in the northern province of Kim Su [?], a hundred miles from Shanghai. And so, the difficulty is tremendous. We lost the industrial quarters. And in Chungking, we didn't see fit to manufacture a toothpaste. Such difficulty. And then, the western correspondence, like Mrs. Strong, and his and her cohorts, they were clearly Communist. And so they were propagating that China would not fight. With what? But then, the Air Force took the equipment, the Navy never got the day going. The Army came late, because the Army came from Burma, came from India in the Burma, this was too late. And the Air Force got some equipment, the Air Force by the help of American Air Force stopped the Japanese invasion somehow. They, we say the government the Chinese government, they had the determination to fight the Chinese Communists up to the end. �When Chunking was endangered toward the winter of 1944, Chi Kung [?] to the west of Chunking, was prepared for the capital. If Chunking was lost, then Chi Kung [?] would be the capital. We fight to the end. FRANK BORING: One last thing, if that's a… (break) KONSIN SHAH: The war was won, because then afterwards the difficulty is unsurmountable. FRANK BORING: But then 1937 wasn't that difficult as well? He had the Communist on one part, he had the Japanese invading, he had lack of equipment, lack of supplies, he had, this is what we're looking to try and give a western audience a better grasp of... (break) KONSIN SHAH: Chiang Kai-shek's dilemma, at the time of Japanese invasion in July 1937, he had a speech in Nan Tung [?], where there is no hope of a peaceful solution, then we will talk of sacrifice. Because there is no equipment, there is no organization, there is no internal organization, there is a Russian part of an indirect invasion from the Communist. So where there is no hope of a peaceful solution, then we will talk about sacrifice. This is his dilemma. FRANK BORING: Is that possible to, you're looking down, could you just start from the beginning? KONSIN SHAH: At the time of the Japanese invasion, in 1937, in July, Generalissimo, Chiang Kai-shek, made a speech in Cansee Province [?], in Lu Shang [?], up at the summer resort. His statement was where there is no hope of a peaceful solution then we will talk about sacrifice because we lack equipment, we lack internal organization, plus some of Russia had a �Communist part to play in the internal problem. And we couldn't wage a fight, but there is no peaceful solution - let's talk about sacrifice. FRANK BORING: Thank you very much. I appreciate you're going through all of this. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 6 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah discusses the great dilemma of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek at the time of Japanese invasion in July 1937 and the lack of hope for a peaceful solution in China. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87d150df23d71e970e32f6030510fc96.m4v 802089bdaa466bc342b6de51a77b992d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a99fe20f27f3ae797fc06c1ea9a723c5.pdf e6a8ae81ecf1ed27f463e1803d7458bc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Dolly Nemic Konwinski Length of Interview: (01:23:44) Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you grow up? What was your neighborhood like and your family?” It was a typical, typical working class neighborhood. The neighborhood consisted of Bohemians and Polish and Jewish and it was the most wonderful—growing up in this neighborhood was exceptionally fun as I can remember and to go to school with this group and to grow up with, I should say, the boys because that was my main team mates. We went to grammar school together, to kindergarten and elementary and high school. Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?” Well, in the depression he was with the WPA, I forget what that stands for. Interviewer: “It was Roosevelt’s way of getting people to work.” Right, my mother was a stay at home mother of course—back then all moms stayed home and cooked, washed, etc. My dad played softball with a neighborhood group and in Chicago, I guess you get the picture—in the neighborhood where there’s a tavern on every other corner. Well, my dad would stop and have a little refreshment on his way home and that’s the group he played horseshoes with and played softball with and not having a boy, I was the tag along. (02:20) I wouldn’t let my dad out of the house, even if he was going to the corner store for some “Halva”, which is a Jewish candy by the way. I would sit by the door so, he had to take me to the softball games, which I was a “gofer” and some of the men, if they were true ball players, they chased their own shag balls, but since I was there, I was the “gofer”, to go for the ball. They would say, “Dolly get this” and of course they couldn’t have picked a better person than me because I wanted this badly. I wanted to be on the ball field since I can remember. Interviewer: “Why? What was your motivation? I know your back to your early childhood, but what was it about baseball that appealed to you as a young kid?” (03:15) You know, that’s really a hard question, but my love for my father, I wanted to be just like him and I would do things just like my dad and I just took to the sport. I didn’t like dolls—I have a sister and she had the most beautiful dolls in the neighborhood and I don’t know where they got the money to buy these, maybe they went down to the relief station and picked them up, but she had these beautiful dolls and I had the best bat and ball in the neighborhood. (03:56) Of course doing that, the boys all loved me too, but I was good—I was good when I was a kid. Interviewer: “How old were you when you actually started playing baseball?” 1 �I was probably seven or eight. Interviewer: “Whom did you play with?” I played with the boys in the neighborhood. Interviewer: “Where?” Well, if you can close your eyes and picture a neighborhood in Chicago and you will find that the streets were narrow and they held a car, if you were lucky enough to have one parked there. We use to play softball there and we used the manhole cover and the drains as first and the manhole cover as second and so on, and then we took chalk and drew home plate in the street. (04:53) When we started, we wanted to play baseball and Kuppenheimer Clothes had a factory just a half a block away and in back of the factory was a field, a large field and that’s where me and the boys went to play ball. Interviewer: “Were you the only girl?” I was the only girl. Interviewer: “Did other kids come out to watch you play?” (05:22) No, they played. I remember that movie “Sand lot” and I loved that movie because it’s what I did when I was a kid. We went out there and we played “round robin”, you hit, you fielded, you pitched, you were a Cub fan or a Sox fan and you took their names, you took Stan Hack, you took Andy Pafko, but I was a Sox fan and I was in love with Luke Appling so, I played short stop and I always told—you call me Luke—I wanta be Luke Appling, I want to play professional baseball just like Luke Appling and not realizing what was going to happen in the distant future. (06:13) Interviewer: “That was fantasy because you couldn’t play even if you—we know what actually happened later, but as a child at that time playing--fantasizing about playing professional baseball, there were no women in baseball at that time”. You know the old saying “Girls can’t play baseball”, well I did and I was a good player. I wasn’t the best, I wasn’t a home run hitter, but I always was picked first if I wasn’t the captain. Maybe it was because of that bat and ball I had and the boys liked it. I remember the bat. We played with cracked, cracked at the handle and couldn’t afford to go out and get a new bat—didn’t have aluminum bats way back then so, my dad took his manual screw driver and he put a hole through there and put in a screw and then he taped it up. (07:19) He didn’t use the shiny black tape we have today, he used the tape that would get your hands black, but he taped that bat up and it was as good as new and back to the ball fields. (07:34) 2 �Of course, we only played now in the summer—wintertime, there was time for skating and tobogganing and sledding. I think every kid in Chicago had a sled—so our summers were—and then I had a paper route. I had a Sun Times paper route. The first girl to have a paper route—a large one too. My sister would help me—please El, please El, I got a ball game, can you help me deliver these papers? I have to do homework and then I would have to run out—“They need me, they need me, my sister would say “Ok, ok”, she is two years younger so—you know when you’re eight and nine and eight and seven. I would say “Please El?”(08:25) It was the same with doing dishes when we were young. That was out job—we had to do the dishes, “Oh mama do I have to do the dishes?” “You have to do the dishes”. Well, I finally caught on and I would say to my sister, “Will you wipe tonight?” One night we would wash and one night we would do the wiping, but the dishwasher always got finished first so, I would say, “El, El, let me wash dishes tonight”, and she would say, “Well, you washed last night”, and I would say, “I want to get out of here, please, please, I got a ball game”, because the boys would be sitting on the fence waiting for me. 9:01 “Oh Dolly, oh Dolly, when you were a kid back then that’s what they would yell. Then when it would come to the pots and pans, I would say, “Oh mama, oh mama, can you do this pot? It’s really hard and the boys are waiting”. I had a wonderful childhood. I had a wonderful—when my dad got home from work—we played with a sixteen inch softball in Chicago and if you hit it enough times it gets like mooch. We were—you know, a small hand could squeeze it and the ball, when it was hit it would just kind of tumble around. (09:46) “Daddy, daddy, I need a new ball”. We had enough money for food, we were never without food on our table and there he would come home under his arm, with his lunch basket, would be a ball. Now, I don’t know where he got that ball—we’ll just leave it at that. (10:12) Interviewer: “You got through high school and graduated from high school?” Yes. Interviewer: “Ok, when did you first hear about the opportunity to play baseball?” One morning after church, my dad stopped at the bakery and we always had bagels and Kaiser rolls, he stopped at the Jewish market and they were the best in the whole world. I wish I could go back there today and pick up a dozen. He came home and after coffee he was reading the paper and he said to me, “Dolly”, he said, “did you know that girls play baseball?” I said, “Girls don’t play baseball”, he said, “There’s an All American girls baseball league that’s having tryouts and it’s going to be right in the neighborhood at one our park districts”. (11:18) That’s where I played a lot of my sports, at the park—volleyball and whatever girls played over there, whatever they would let us play. He said, “It’s going to be right down the street and I want you to go”, and I said, “Oh dad, I’m not”—he said, “You’re a good ball player Dolly, I want you to go.” Well, the glove I had was—if you go down to the hall of fame one day, you’ll see the kind of gloves we had. It was probably from the five 3 �and ten cent store, but I had this glove and he said, “I want you to go down there”. “Ok, I’ll go down”. (12:03) I never saw so many girls with baseball gloves in my life. Interviewer: “Now this is a field you had already played in so, you knew where it was?” Right down the street. Interviewer: “Right down the street”. In the park district. Interviewer: “What I’m really impressed with is your father really encouraged you to do this”. (12:22) He did, and of course my mother, you know, my mother didn’t really know first from short, but let me tell you one story. One day I said to my mother, “Mom, does it take longer to get from first to second or second to third?” and she said to me, “Now Dolly, that was just the most stupid thing you could ask me”, I was laid back and I said, “Well, what do you mean?” and she said, “Well, it takes longer to get from second to third”, and I laughed, “What do you mean mom?” She said, “Well, there’s a short stop in-between”. 13:10 I love to tell this story and I love to tell it in front of her because I don’t know where she got that information, maybe my father whispered it in her ear, but mama didn’t know too much about sports. Interviewer: “What did she think about this idea of you going to try out for this baseball thing?” Like I say, she didn’t—she knew I went out to play ball so, it was just another going out in the afternoon and having fun with the boys, but my father had told me “it’s girls baseball”. When I got there--Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the trip over, what were you thinking about while you were walking over?” (13:56) Walking is right, I was fifteen—walking over there and thinking to myself, “You know, will I be able to catch the ball? Are they going to throw really hard to me? Are there going to be ladies there throwing? What is this all about?” (14:21) It was about—I would say about three blocks from the house, maybe four and you know you skip down there and you think and you smile—baseball, baseball, organized. Well, when I got there to that gym, I had to sign in and there were a lot of men and there were a lot of women, young girls, in fact, we weren’t women yet, we were fifteen and sixteen years old. (14:52) I walked in there and my eyes must have been almost popping out of my head. I could not believe what I was seeing. Well, you know, grab a friend and here’s a ball and start 4 �throwing and the ball was—I believe the ball was eleven inches. It had come down from the twelve inch that the league started with and so, we started playing catch and my name is Dolly—well’ my name is Mary Lou and my name is Ginger and where do you live? (15:29) Well, I live way on the south side and what school do you go to? I go to Tillman, and I went to Farragut, the conversation was just fun and women throwing hard to me, I did not have to look for a boy to throw the ball to me like I’m use to catching. It went on, we played catch and of course it was in a gym and so the men, who were coaches, started hitting ground balls to us, we were in line and we each took our turn fielding the ball and throwing the ball and we couldn’t hit, but we could slide—slide on a gym floor? Ouch. (16:18) It wasn’t strawberries, it was floor burns. Interviewer: “What were you wearing?” I was probably wearing a pair of pants and to this day, and I just bought them last year, I never owned a pair of jeans. It was always a pair of girl’s slacks, some kind of a shirt, I don’t remember. Interviewer: “I was just trying to think. It wasn’t a uniform or anything?” No, I was what everybody had. They had their jeans on and tennis shoes. I don’t know if I had tennis shoes or if we could afford tennis shoes. Interviewer: “What year was this?” (17:01) This was in 1947. Interviewer: “Ok, so the war was already over with?” Right, what they were trying to do is get four teams in Chicago, like a farm system, which the All Americans never had. They were trying to form the farm system with the local gals and then we lined up and they told us a little bit about the league and what they were trying to do—get four teams—there would be two south side teams, two north end teams, and we would play each other. (17:41) I must have impressed the coaches because they called my name and they came up to me and they said, “Does your parents know about this?” I said, “Yes, my dad sent me down here”, and they said, “Dolly, you’re a good ball player”, no Joe DiMaggio, no Luke Appling, and I said, “Thank you”, and he said, “Would you be interested in playing on one of the Chicago teams?” I said, “Oh, yes”. Well, they had some literature, some notes that I had to take home and show my mom and dad. (18:31) Interviewer: “Did you have a job at this time?” 5 �Just my paper route, just my paper route, and boy when I would get those penny and nickel tips—you know when you’re nine years old or ten years old, and I had that job right into high school. Interviewer: “What were your options? You had a fairly decent relationship with your father and with your mother, what did you talk about? Obviously professional baseball was not in the discussions about what you were going to do with your life before this happened”. (19:03) Right, right, it—well, I ran home, I mean I ran, I sprinted, I could have beat Owens that day. I ran upstairs and I said, “Oh daddy, daddy, daddy”, and he said, “What happened, what happened?” I said, “Daddy, they want me to play, they want me to play”, and he said, “I knew, I knew it” so, I said, “Mama, can I play ball? Can I play ball?” “Ask your father, ask your father”, and I said, “Daddy said yes, daddy said yes” so, I brought the details home and made these friends, Mary Lou Studnicka you know, Ann O’Dowd, we were picked for the Southside team (19:56) and my other friends, Ginger and Champ and some of the gals on the North side, Joan Sindelar, they made the North side team and so, we were going to be playing against each other. (20:11) Interviewer: “Now, you were getting paid, right?” Well, no pay, we got our streetcar fare and I think we got fifty cents and that would have been a lot of money because streetcar fare was a nickel and that would have been ten cents round trip and that would leave us fifteen cents for a hamburger and a malt. (20:40) That was the extent of it, just get on—maybe it was a little less, but fifty cents sticks in— and that was so much money when I think of those nickel tips. We were paid that and I was still active in the park districts and we were playing volleyball and we had a good volleyball team. I love that sport to this day. As a kid I loved to go out there and watch and my grand kids play, but we were playing in the park district tournament and we were playing for the championship and we won, we won. (21:35) We were just so happy, so happy and before they gave the medals out, that’s what you could win, a nice medal, I was called in the office and the lady who was in charge, the director of this, she said to me, “Dolly, do you play baseball?” And I said, “Oh ya, I do play”, and she said, “Do you get paid?” I said, “No, I get money for the streetcar to go there”< and she said, “Well, we heard you got paid and we have to disqualify your team”, and I said, “You mean we don’t win? Does that mean we don’t win?” She said, “That means you don’t win”. (22:27) Well, our coach, I’ll tell ya, I can feel the pain right now—how could they do this to me for streetcar fare? So, that’s another thing you know, when you’re fourteen or fifteen and that—it just—so, I quit playing volleyball and I just played in adult leagues when I got older. I said, “I’ll show them, just don’t call me grandma” but, I played since and then I stuck to my baseball—still going to school—still in high school now, not being able to play sports—the only thing girls could do in high school—we had a swimming team, but they couldn’t be on the swimming team, but they could be divers. (23:28) We played, of course we played basketball and taking you back a long time ago, we played half court and six on a team and of course we played volleyball so, I got my thrill 6 �of playing volleyball in high school, loved it, had more fun and played ball with the boys, I could practice, they wanted me out there to practice so bad, but when they had a game it was “See you tomorrow Dolly”. (24:04) Interviewer: “So, what were your options when you got out of high school? What were you going work as? Were you going to try to get a job as a nurse or what?” No, this is the most fun, playing with the boys in the field. I played with a young boy, his name is Joe Schoenberg, how that stick out in my mind I don’t know, but we had a Mages Sporting Goods store, Morey Mages and his brothers, I don’t remember his brothers, names, but Joe lived in the apartment building on the first level and Morey Mages lived above him. (24:48) We would talk and he said, “Oh Morey, he owns the sporting goods store” and I don’t know what made me do this, one day after we played ball he said, “Oh, Morey always gets home about five thirty from the store” so, the wheels are turning in Dolly’s head so, I went to the corner where Joe and Mr. Mages lived, and he came by one day and I said, “Mr. Mages?” and he said, “Hello, how are ya?” I said, “Fine, I play ball with Joe Schoenberg”, and he said, “Well, that’s nice”, and I said, “We play at Kuppenheimer Field” and he said, “Oh, that’s nice” and I said, “You know I’m playing ball, baseball with a girls organized team” , and he said, “Well, isn’t that nice?” (25:47) I said, “Mr. Mages, I need a job, can I get a job (very blunt—no tact) at your store?” and I think he was taken back and he said, “We don’t have any ladies in sales, we just have them in the office part”, and I said, “That would be ok, that would be ok, can you use me?” And he said, “I’ll tell ya, come by after school tomorrow or Monday (this was on a Friday) and come see me”, “Wow”, I ran home and told my mom that I talked to Mr. Mages. (26:45) A long time ago we called our mother and father—we either called her mother or him father or mama and daddy, because when dad would go out he would say, “You stay home with mama”, or vice versa. I said, “Mama, mama, Mr. Mages said I could come talk to him about a job”. She said, “Doing what?” I said, “I don’t know, just working” and she said, “Well how much?” and I said, “I don’t know, just working” so, I couldn’t wait until I got home from school, got my paper route done and hopped the streetcar because Mages was on North Avenue and Crawford, it was just off Crawford, west of Crawford and I got dressed up as nice as I could look and I took the streetcar out there. (27:41) I was so excited my heart was just beating and I got to the store and asked one of the sales people and they said he was in his office and to go to his office. So, he said, “Well, hi Dolly” and I said, “Hi Mr. Mages”, and he said, “Well, have you ever sold anything, do you have any experience?” I said, “No, just playing ball” and he said, “Well, how would you like to try to be in the shoe department and sell bowling shoes, ice skates and ski boots?” I thought and said, “Sure, I would like to try, I’d love to”, and I was the first saleswoman for Mages Sporting Goods. (28:38) I loved my job, I loved my job and so, after I graduated and was playing ball, playing ball in the summer and he knew that. I started going to college and I would go right to work after that and then of course the All Americans came to be where—we graduated in 7 �1949 and we went on a barnstorming tour and I worked when I could and I thought, (29:14) “This isn’t fair, maybe there’s somebody who wants the job at Mages” so, I stuck to baseball where I made some money and graduated high school, left my paper route, my customers were very sad too because they got their tips worth when they gave me that five cents and ten cents, their paper was at their door every night and early on Sunday morning. I did that before church. (29:51) Interviewer: “Let’s go back now to—you’ve kind of wrapped up your job and your paper route and all, but how did you find out about the professional All American Women’s League? How did you find out about that?” Well, because of that tryout, which was held by the All American, and I was picked for one of the four teams, which made me a part of the All American. Interviewer: “You’re not being paid though, you said”. We weren’t, but then at the end of 1948, after our season, the four teams were brought together in a meeting and Len Zintack, who was from Chicago and the director of the four teams, (30:38) asked who would be interested in going on a barn storming tour of the United States to introduce the game to the south and the east coast so, Chicago had two teams, they had the Springfield Sallies and the Chicago Colleens, which in 1948 did not make it. Chicago had the Cubs and the Sox and the Bloomer Girls and some very good softball teams and our team just couldn’t bring the crowds in. (31:14) Springfield had the same problem. They had a good minor league team and they had some good softball teams. So, they took the Colleens and the Sallies and they distributed those women to the Peaches and Chicks and the teams in the All Americans, and we became the women and girls who said “yes” they would go on a tour and we became the Sallies and the Colleens and we traveled together on one bus touring. We started in Oklahoma City, toured the south, New Orleans, Pensacola—(31:59) Interviewer: “Playing against each other?” Yes, against each other. Maybe on day I was a Colleen and one day I was a Sally, but it didn’t make any difference, people were out to see the two teams play. We were heavily advertised and we had wonderful crowds, we had wonderful crowds and they accepted us. There was no one saying that girls can’t play baseball because we showed them a very good brand of baseball. (32:29) Interviewer: “What were you wearing?” We were wearing the uniforms of the All Americans, the ones the Colleens and Sally’s had. Interviewer: “What did it look like?” 8 �It was like the pictures you see today, the uniform of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. Interviewer: “You had a baseball cap and a top, but then there was a skirt.” The—Mrs. Wrigley designed those uniforms. She wanted every one of the women to look like ladies and the men, the manager, play like men, and that’s what we wore. It was a skirted uniform with shorts underneath and the stockings up to our calf. 33:14 Interviewer: “How did you feel about this? This is a different time, now you can walk around in a skirt and you can have it as short or as long as you want, there is no difference, but in those days women didn’t wear skirts like that.” No we didn’t and if you find a picture of the first four women who played ball, you will notice their skirts are almost to their knees, which was still—you know, if you’re sliding and your skirts coming up and you’re going see the shorts, but that’s all you’re going to see. Well, each year the gals took a hem up, which was ok, the chaperones never said anything and I don’t think anyone was reprimanded for taking a hem up and making the skirt a little shorter. (34:08) Interviewer: “The reason is because of the running and the—?” Probably the running, and people say, “Well how did you ever slide or play in those skirts?” And this was the easiest thing to do because we had shorts on and like so many high school and college teams have today, we had a little skirt that covered that, which made it a little more feminine looking. The charm school of course-Interviewer: “You had to go through the charm school?” That was in the beginning of the league and I didn’t join the league until, you know, 1949 or 1948 so, I was not into make-up, but the chaperones made sure that when you were out in public, you looked like a lady in al phases at all times. (35:08) Interviewer: “You did this barnstorming tour, which was playing basically against the same teams that you were playing with. When did that shift into being part of the league that played other cities and other towns?” After the 1949 barnstorming tour, which ended in—I believe it ended in August, sometime in August, we were all allocated to teams in the All American League. So, my friend Delores Muir, who just passed away two weeks ago, we were sent to the South Bend Blue Sox. Dave Bancroft accepted us and I don’t think I played a game because it was about two weeks. I think I was there long enough for a 1949 team picture and Grand Rapids needed an infielder and South Bend needed a pitcher so, I was traded. (36:13) I joined the Grand Rapids Chicks in 1949. Most of the gals did the exact—they were sent to South Band and Fort Wayne and Peoria. 9 �Interviewer: “What was your first impression of Grand Rapids when you came here?” This is kind of a small city compared to Chicago. I said to somebody, “I would like to go downtown, how long is it going to take me?” And they said, “Oh, five or ten minutes”. I lived in Madison Square and I said, “Five or ten minutes, what?” And they said, “The bus will get you down there”, and that reminds me—my mother came to visit and she said she wanted to go downtown. Well, I had a game to get ready for so I said, “Ok mama, you’re going to go to Hall St. and the fire department is on the corner of Madison and the bus will stop and he’ll take you downtown. (37:16) Now, notice the number of the bus and where you got off and that’s where you’ll get on” and she said, “Ok, no problem”. Well, I get a phone call and the first thing she asked the bus driver was she wants to go down to the loop and he said, “You must be from Chicago?” Well, she wanted to go downtown and she got off at the wrong stop and she went into the fire department, which was just down the street, but she didn’t recognize anything and they told her where she wanted to go. (37:52) That’s just kind of a side story, but I love Grand Rapids, I love Grand Rapids and it was so fun to play here and the people I stayed with, they treated us like their daughters. I stayed on Horton Street, right off Cottage Grove and these people, like I say, we paid them our rent, I don’t remember what it was a month, not much, but they always told us the refrigerator is always open. On our day off they would say, “Dolly, would you like to have dinner with us tonight?” (38:38) We were so a part of their family and so welcomed here that I’m sure the minor league baseball teams that we have today stay with these families and are treated like their sons and you don’t forget. Interviewer: “Lets go back to—you signed up originally with this one team and you were traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks. You’re getting paid now and there’s a contract, give us some idea what that was about. You had to sign a contract for what. What period of time and how much were you paid?” (39:17) Well, first of all when I agreed to go on that barnstorming tour, my mother and dad had to go downtown to the Wrigley Building and sign a contract because I was just sixteen. So, off on the El we went to the Wrigley Building. They gave their permission and when I got to South Bend or Grand Rapids, I had signed a contract on my own, I was eighteen and I made sixty-five dollars a week and that was really big money. (40:00) I didn’t even make that at Mages Sporting Goods. When I was on the tour, going back to the tour in 1949, I want to say we made twenty-five dollars a week, but of course everything was paid for, our hotel, of course the bus, we didn’t have to worry about—we did have to buy our own meals, but I had enough money that when I left I said to my mother, “I’m going to send you some money home and I want you to go buy yourself some stockings or a slip, I want you to treat yourself to something, treat yourself and do not put this money away, treat yourself, I’m ok”. (40:45) When I got home, going back now to 1949, when I got home I said, “What did you buy mama? What did you buy? Did you buy yourself some new shoes or stocking or a slip or a dress?” She said, “No, I saved the money for you”, and I said, “Mother, why did you 10 �do this? I sent the money for you to treat yourself”, and she said, “I knew you would need it for school” and so, “Ok, I got money”. I don’t remember what I had, two hundred dollars or something like that in savings so, I went to my dad and I said, “Daddy can I buy a car?” He said, “What are you going to use a car for?” I said, “I don’t know, can I buy a car?” (41:51) He said, “We’ll see”. Well, he and my uncle, my uncle Rudy, go out looking for a car—now, I haven’t graduated yet from high school in 1949 so, one day I come home from school—take the streetcar—came home from school and he said, “I got a surprise for you”, and I said, “We’re going to get a car, we’re going to get a car?” and he said, “Come on outside”. I almost cried, I mean I almost cried because here was this 1936 Plymouth four door—here’s your car, and I don’t know if people go back and log into old cars, but they have the back door—the front door opened this way and the back door opened this way. Well, I really didn’t want a four door gray car, but what could I say— he would probably say, “Well, I’ll take it back”. Well Ok, I have a car and the next day I said, “Daddy can I take my car to school?” (43:08) Well, he jumped out of his chair and he said, “Are you crazy? Are you crazy? Nobody drives a car to school, you take the streetcar”. So, there I am ten cents on the streetcar and I have this 1936 Plymouth sitting in front of my house, but that’s the way it was back then. If you see the schoolyards today, there are not many that don’t drive. It was fun to do this, it was fun to do this and in high school I was about to graduate and my class honored me with the most likely to succeed and in my log, Frigate, you know, the ship— we had the log and in there it said that I wanted to be a professional baseball player, long before the dream came true, and being outstanding athlete in my class, which made me proud. (44:25) I also was in the concert band and concert orchestra—I played the trombone. I had wonderful, wonderful years in high school and all through school. Now I’m a professional baseball player and when we have our reunions, I take the log with me and I say, “Ok you guys, how many else lived up to what they put in the log?” Interviewer: “Tell us about your experience with the Grand Rapids Chicks. Do you remember your first game with them?” Oh yes, the first game was Racine, Wisconsin and I was put right into the lineup and the first two times at bat, I got hits and I will never forget that. (45:09) Since that first game it became a little bit more difficult to get a hit because they knew I couldn’t hit a curve ball and all those wonderful pitchers we had who threw fast ball with a hop on it, they had equally wonderful curveballs. All they had to do was throw that to me, but we played at South Field, the Grand Rapids Chicks played, and of course South Field was a football field before they made it a baseball field. Of course we had a short right field and with the fast balls, I could make line drives to right field—I was a good hitter to right—but of course they knew I wasn’t that speed demon that a long time ago I was and they would throw me out at first. (46:12) Well, there went my batting average so, I was good field no hit, but I remember those first two hits in Racine , Wisconsin. Interviewer: “What was your position with the Grand Rapids Chicks?” 11 �I played third base, but at times I played second base, when our pitcher Zig would be on the mound. I think because I was a good infielder and I had played second at one time, I could make the double play very easy—it wasn’t difficult for me to do that—I started out as a shortstop back in the schoolyard days, you know, Luke Appling. Interviewer: “Professionally though, you were a third baseman?” Yes. Interviewer: “Who were some of the teams you were playing at that time?” We played of course, the “Rockford Peaches”, “South Bend Blue Sox”, “Peoria Red Wings”, “Fort Wayne Daisies”, “Racine Belles”, “Kenosha Comets”, “Muskegon Lassies”, when the league started to slow down and attendance—Battle Creek bought the “Belles” so, we had the “Battle Creek Belles”, Muskegon slowed down so, Kalamazoo, Michigan bought the “Lassies” and we had the “Kalamazoo Lassies”. 47:37 Interviewer: “What was a season like? The first season you played with them? Was it a lot of traveling; was it a lot of home games? What was the actual season like?” I think we were split—home and away games. We played seven days a week, double headers on holidays and Sundays and there were a lot of rain dances. We looked forward to rain when we didn’t have a day off for a long time, but occasionally we had a day off. Usually if we were traveling we’d have a night game and travel in the morning either to South Bend—wouldn’t make the long trip to Peoria, we would stop at South Bend or Fort Wayne or Rockford before going on to the longer miles. (48:35) Interviewer: “What were these road trips like? I that when you’re traveling a lot and then you have to play a game and then you’re traveling some more, but you’re young of course, you’re very young, but what were these road trips like for you? Did you like them? Were they tiring? Were they fun?” You learn to sleep on the bus. We traveled on the Division Avenue bus line, which was a step above a school bus, the seats were more comfortable, and so, you could take a nap. They were fun, you would sit with a friend and chat and sometimes we would sing. Sunday morning Alma Ziegler give her sermons so, we had a touch of religion in there one way or another. (49:37) Interviewer: “This is the baseball playing nun you were talking about?” No, this was Alma Ziegler, Gabby Ziegler who played for the Grand Rapids Chicks. I never played with our former nun. I did play with Tony Palermo, his sister Toni Marie Palermo, she’s still in the convent, and when we have reunions today, Saturday night she gets on the podium and reminds everybody that Sunday is tomorrow morning and “Do you have your wakeup call in there? (50:15) If you don’t go to church you know we’ll pray hard for you.” So, we do have a nun still in the convent. Alice Harnet was a nun—we had three nuns—we have three 12 �physicians—three doctor. Mary Roundtree, who was a catcher for the Grand Rapids Chicks sometime ago, just passed away in Miami and she was a surgeon, a very, very outstanding doctor and Audrey Wagner played for, oh gosh, I don’t want to get this wrong, I believe the Kenosha Comets and she was a doctoring California and she flew her own plane and she was going to a medical convention and crashed. So, we lost not only lost one of the outstanding outfielders and hitters and outstanding physicians, but we lost Audrey too. (51:26) Interviewer: “These road trips to other towns, had you traveled—I know you were from Chicago and Chicago of course is a big city with a lot of different types of people and different things around you—groups and what not. How different was it when you went to all these other towns? Was there a sense of I’m in a new town here, I’m from a big city and this is a small town, what were your reactions to these other areas and places?” Of course the towns were all the size of Grand Rapids so we enjoyed it. We stayed in very nice hotels, we were given three dollars a day meal money so, we always had that fifty-nine cent breakfast. If there was a good movie and we didn’t have to play until evening, we took in the first feature. We saved our two and a half dollars for an evening meal and sometimes that would only cost us a dollar and a half so we saved a dollar. (52:31) The towns were lovely, the fans of course were anti-Chicks, but they only treated us that way when we were at the ball field, you know boo, boo, boo and what have you. Cheered hard for their teams, Fort Wayne was noted—they had a tailor in Fort Wayne and of course we had to wear skirts, and it seemed like every team visited this tailor to have their skirts made. (53:03) We would pick the material up and he would measure us up and then on our next trip back, we would pick-up our skirts and you could tell everyone who had their skirts made by him, they were very tailored. I think I wore them when I was married. I mean the herringbones and the wool skirts so; I remember that about Fort Wayne. Fort Wayne also had a sporting goods store that would carry spikes our sizes. Rawlings made the spikes and they would carry a size four or a size five, specially made for the women. Another city that’s well known is, I believe, Racine that had the Jockey--Jockey Cooper and they made the men’s underwear. Well, at one time they would turn their factory over for a short period and they would make Jockey underwear for the women, of course a whole different pattern in the front, but we would always order out undies from Jockey so, those are two towns. (54:34) Interviewer: “What ever happened to your—the place you worked for, the sports place you worked for in Chicago?” Mages? You know, I believe Mages sold his stores when he retired. Interviewer: “I mean when you became a baseball player and they were actually paying you to be a professional baseball player did you ever go back there?” 13 �I did, I did and I talked to all my friends there and they kept saying, “You’re playing baseball now and I’d have some pictures to show them and they were quite proud and I said, “Now you catch our games if you go to Kenosha, which is a short drive”, That’s where my mom and dad would catch our games, up in Kenosha. “It’s a short drive— come see us and call me and let me know if you’re coming and I’ll get you tickets”, so, they were quite proud that I made a stepping stone to something I loved. (55:37) Interviewer: “How did your dad react to that?” Oh, my dad was so proud. He would tell everybody, my Dolly is playing baseball, softball, my Dolly is playing baseball and we’re going to see her next weekend. They had a car—I don’t know what happened to my 1936 Plymouth, I guess when I left for Grand Rapids, I didn’t take that car. He probably sold it, which was good and I don’t remember back then, but I know I didn’t have my gray Plymouth anymore. (56:17) People at Mages were quite proud of me and I’d always ask them, “Do you miss me in the shoe department?” When I’d talk to people, especially when I’d sell them a pair of ski boots I’d say, “Well, where do you ski?” They would say, “Well, in northern Michigan”, and I’d say “Northern Michigan, past Grand Rapids?” “Oh, Boyne City and Traverse City”, and not being familiar with northern Michigan, I said, “Oh, I think that’s quite a bit North of Grand Rapids, I play ball there”, and they would say, “Oh, you do?” Of course they wouldn’t see me in the summertime so, I’d sell ski boots and of course bowling shoes and going back to 19—in the early forties, when the war started, in 1943 my uncle enlisted, that was my fathers very best friend. (57:19) Now, my dad bowled too and again, “tag along Dolly”, I can remember the Windy City Bowling—they were bowling alleys back then, not bowling lanes, and he would take me and they would have the best orange soda in the whole world so, “Daddy, daddy can I go with you tonight? Can I go with you?” and he would take me with him and the first thing we would get in there, he would go to the bar and I’d have my orange soda and he would say, “Now, sit and be quiet”, and I would say, “Oh, I’ll be very quiet”. I would watch his team bowl and I said to him one time, “Can I try this game? Can I try bowling?” and he said, “Ok” so, one Sunday morning after church we went to the bowling part and he got me a ball with small finger holes and my father always bent over, it was very unique, he always bent over and the ball hung down and he would push away. (58:19) That’s the way I bowl, I followed his form, and there was sometimes the pin boys, you know, they were off to war and they wouldn’t have one and he would go back to the pits and he would set pins for me and then I would go back to the pits and I would set a game for him. That way it only cost us a nickel instead of a dime to bowl a game. Interviewer: “Let’s get back to baseball.” I was just going to say that I became a professional bowler too. Interviewer: “I didn’t know that. The first game you said you played with the Grand Rapids, Chicks and you had two hits and after that it was a lot more difficult to get hits because the pitchers were on to you. Is that because you played you played these teams so often, they were able to—there weren’t that many teams for one thing—“ 14 �There were eight teams at that time. Interviewer: “Eight teams.” They each had—I would say, they each had four pitchers so, I didn’t face everybody in the same series or time after time, but I’m sure I faced all of the pitchers at one time or another. (59:40) Interviewer: “How was your first season?” It was good, it was good, my batting average wasn’t that bad, of course it wasn’t 300, but I had a good season on the field, I enjoyed playing along side of my team mates, who were very helpful, John Rawlings was our manager and he was a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates and very knowledgeable Hall of Fame player, and because my hitting wasn’t the best, I would have to go out there every day we were home and he would pitch to me. Today I realize what I was doing wrong. (01:00:31) I was not throwing my arms out at the ball, I was kind of crimping in on them and I think back, “No wonder I wasn’t a good hitter, now I have to tell the kids how to throw the bat at the ball” . Interviewer: “What were some of your memorable games? Which ones really stick out in your mind?” I find that question, not impossible, but difficult, because every game out there was a joy for me. I looked forward to every game we played, there was never a game where I was bored, there was never a time in my life I was bored, Always something to do, (01:01:23) I guess the one game—it was in Kalamazoo and probably the shocker of my life because I hit one off the fence in center field and it was right off the top of the fence and it came back into the field and I only got a triple, I don’t know if I scored or not or what happened because I was in seventh heaven—to see me hit that ball that far—I think John Rawlings fainted in the dugout. I don’t even know if my team cheered for me because they must have all been in shock. (01:02:03) That’s one game that stands out ant that was extremely fun. Interviewer: “I have seen film footage of professionals like you sliding into a base and it doesn’t look comfortable. Could you explain what it was like to actually slide into a base?” (01:02:29) One experience that I had—now we’ll be shocked again because I got a hit, and I’m standing on first and not taking a big lead off and John Rawlings gives me the steal sign and I’m thinking, “Does he know who he’s giving a steal sign to?” Old turtle Dolly? Well, he thought I could get a—the pitcher had a high kick and “ok, he’s giving me the steal sign”, I’ll show him I can do it. So, off I take and I slid and I was safe, but I had the biggest, hurtingest strawberry in the whole world. (01:03:24) Well, everybody is saying, “Just shake it off, shake it off”, well I’m not going to cry out there—I’d like to— eventually a hit was made and I scored. I got to the dugout, Dotty Hunter waiting for me 15 �because she knew. Out came the methialate, we had the fan going, which is all your teammates blowing and I’m thinking, “This is going to burn, this is going to burn like the fires of hell”. On goes the methialate, on goes the bandage, a big bandage—get out there and play. (01:04:09) Well, I did my job, “It doesn’t hurt until the next day I’m thinking, it doesn’t hurt more until the next day”. The next time I get up—this should be my most memorable game— Dolly gets a hit—“I got another hit, this pitcher must like me, she’s grooving it”. I’m standing at first and I look over across the playing field and John Rawlings gives me the steal sign again and I’m thinking, “If I have to slide, they’re taking me to Butterworth Hospital or some hospital that’s nearby, I know it for sure”. He gives me the steal sign— well, up it goes, a high kick again and I ran in there. The catcher threw it to center field—I didn’t have to slide and I’m thinking, everybody in the dugout is clapping too, “Hey she made it to second”. Well, I don’t know if I scored on that one or not, but John, as I came in, he was smiling at me and I said, “Did you think I was going slide again?” He just smiled and walked away. (01:05:33) I guess maybe we’ll chuck that hitting the top of the fence and use this as my most memorable game. Two hits and a strawberry and the “ouchie”. It takes a while for that to go away and it starts peeling and you want another hit, but if John gives me the steal sign again I’ll really cry. Interviewer: “Did anybody ever get hurt that you remember, beaned on the head with a ball or anything like that?” I don’t remember, I remember not getting beaned, but going back to the barnstorming tour, one of our Cuban gals had a fastball, but she also had a very fast curve ball and I was batting against her and she had thrown me a fastball and it was high, and I knew she was going to throw me another fastball—I knew it, I knew it—I stood in that box and here comes that fastball right at my arm, but I thought it was going to curve because she was kind of smiling—that she would throw me the curve and get me to go for it—so, I’m waiting for the fast curve and that ball is coming so fast and it didn’t curve and I didn’t get out of the way and it hit my arm. (01:07:18) I couldn’t lift my arm for two or three days and it was black and blue and of course we were on the barnstorming tour and we were all living together and I said, “I thought you were going to throw me a curve”, and she said, “I a fool a you, right Dolly?” I said, “You didn’t fool me, you hurt me”, but to this day we’re still friends. Interviewer: “The crowds initially were big, but you said there was a period of time where it started to get less, the crowds were less and less. Did you actually notice that?” Of course I was through playing in 1952, but I had still gone to some of the games in 1953. I was in an automobile accident and hurt my leg so, that kind of finished my playing career, but so many people ask, “Why did the league fold? Why did the people?” This my own theory, now high schools were-this was really a family gathering, families came to our games and now high schools were beginning to blossom out and have activities in the evening. Cars now had gas so, dad could go here and mother could go to the movies and get her dish. Back then if you went to the movies on Wednesday night, 16 �you could make a dish collection. Of course television was in the ballgame now and who wanted to go out when Uncle Miltie was on? No body, your Show of Shows, they kept the family around this new invention, television. (01:09:28) So, we saw the crowds drop and like I say, it was a family and the family went from a closeness to everybody is out doing their own thing so, the money wasn’t there to pay us and it wasn’t coming from anywhere but the fans, and I always like to add this today, “We see the family now today, coming back together. Who’s at the football games together? Who’s at the soccer games together? Who takes the kids out to the golf course together? It’s mom and dad and the kids and this is so wonderful because our children need this today. They need to know that the family once again cares”. (01:10:27) Interviewer. “I know you have been asked a variation on this question before, but we know for a fact, the fact that you played baseball, that women played professional baseball, did have an impact on the changing attitudes that schools had toward girls playing sports and whatnot and now, as you well know, there’s soccer teams, girls baseball team, there’s all kinds of things. What is your personal opinion? What do you think was the effect, not just you, but your fellow players had on the attitudes that people had towards girls and women?” I am so proud to have been a part of the All Americans and to show people that women had skills and if title nine was passed not only because of us, now young ladies can see their dreams come true, like we saw our dreams, we are so proud to have been a part of this and I went to a couple of the U.S. Olympic Softball Team games and these women, these young women come up and to us and hug us and say “Thank you, because of you, we can do this”, and not only myself, but you can talk to the oldest player in our league or the youngest and they have the same pride that I do, and young girls, no matter what they play, the Olympians, to be so proud of that team and to have them say, “Because of you, we’re here”, makes us so proud. (01:12:38) Interviewer: “Baseball Hall of Fame, tell us about—how did you find out? What happened?” The Baseball Hall of Fame, you know, we didn’t put on any marches, we didn’t put on any protests, but we had a group of women in Fort Wayne, Dottie Collins—it was our first board of directors that slowly went there and show them. Ted Spencer—let me tell you something about Ted Spencer, the Curator. (01:13:27) He was schooled in Boston and it just so happens that one of the players we had in 1943 named Mary Pratt, happened to be a gym teacher, not PE, gym teacher in the one of the Boston schools. One of her students was this young boy named Ted Spencer. Well, when we started, I want to say we, but I talk about this board slowly infiltrating—no protests, just presenting the facts. Going there, she found out that Ted Spencer happens to be the curator of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. (01:14:27) Well, what an in. so, she goes there, the Hall has a lot of her memorabilia, she contacts our board and now they start having meetings with him and this has gone on since we became an organization, a players organization in 1982, and we now get the word that there’s a possibility that the hall of fame would recognize the All American Girls 17 �professional baseball league. How excited, how excited—I know a lot of the women today say that we’ve been inducted and it’s because their proud, but in 1988, November 5th, 1988, the National Baseball Hall of Fame recognized all of the All American Girls. (01:15:33) They wanted to induct—there were some names thrown at them for induction, but our board said, “No, we want to go in as a group. If we’re not inducted, we would be honored to be recognized”, and Jane Forbes Clark, who is the CEO of—and has been one of our biggest supporters, they have had us there on Mothers Day, and we have signed autographs, they have—the tenth anniversary of the movie, they had Penny Marshall and the movie stars, and we were invited to go along and she signed a book and we had dinner with them, they have promoted us, they have things in their gift shop that are related to us, they show the movie, Abbott and Costello, A League of Their Own and in the bleachers, which is a section of the hall of fame, we had our sixtieth reunion and Cooperstown wasn’t big enough to hold all the women who were going to be there so, we stayed in Syracuse, but we had buses take us there. (01:17:03) We had a breakfast in honor of us, we had, right in the hall where the pictures of the hall of famers are, they had tables set with white table clothes and they had waiters in tuxedos and white gloves, and they just honored us in the highest praise they could give us and they do this, they do this. Now when they remodeled, we have a display on the second floor which has pictures and memorabilia and the honor they have given us, we are so proud of. (01:17:55) Interviewer: “That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful. What’s your relationship with the Whitecaps here locally?” Before they became the Whitecaps I knew Lew Chamberlin and I talked to him because he would have lunch at Crystal Springs Country Club. We belong there and we knew they were working on bringing a baseball team and so many times I would sit down at the table and say, “Lew, Grand Rapids, Michigan needs baseball back here again, don’t give up your dream, don’t give up the pushing, don’t give up the hope, of bringing someone here”, and Mr. VanderWitte is a friend of Lew’s and a friend of mine so, when I would see him I’d say,” Please, keep prodding him, keep prodding him, people may give him negative this and that, look what happened here, look what happened there, we need baseball here”. (01:19:13) So, I have been, not the last couple of years—summers have been really—I’ve been out on speaking engagements and doing a lot of traveling, but we were the first ones to have box seats out there the first season and I can go up and into the office and knock on the door and say, “How ya going? How’s everything?” “Good, good”, and Jim Jarecki and their all very close to my heart. Don’t worry, they’ll bring the—they’ve had so many championships; you have to be proud of this team. Interviewer: “They are very supportive of this project by the way. I have met with Dan McCrath and with Jim and they are very much supporting the idea of doing this documentary film. In fact they even helped—next summer they are going to have some announcements and we are going to be helping to be part of this Library of Congress Veterans History Project, to get the veterans who are in that crowd to 18 �come forward and be interviewed. I was very, very pleased with their respect for not only the project it’s self, but for the “Chicks”. (01:20:22) It’s interesting, somebody told me that one of the Grand Rapids Chicks threw a ball out this last season, was that you or do you know who it was?” I didn’t throw out this season, but we’ve thrown them out several times and Jim has said, “You know we’ve got to get you girls back there again this year”. I’ve been kind of proud because I’ve thrown the first ball out for the Braves and the Yankees. The Braves in Cleveland, the Braves in St. Louis, down at spring training, and two summers ago, maybe three, time flies when you have fun, I was invited out to Washington D.C. to the Nationals game, to throw out the first pitch there, and they were playing the Cubs. (01:21:11) We had a rain delay for a while, but eventually they called me to the mound. I threw a perfect strike at the catcher, he never moved his glove, and forty seven thousand people gave me a standing ovation, but now I don’t know why. Is it because I threw the strike? Is it because an eighty-six year old lady could run? Or eighty—eighty, what am I talking about? I’m only seventy-six, or I’ll just call it an old lady, could throw the ball? (01:21:52) When I finished throwing that pitch, I got off the field and was going back to the seats, of course everybody was standing and clapping and high fives and there were two ladies that yelled and came running out there and had to have pictures so, were standing in the aisle and we even held up the beer man for pictures. That was one of my extremely fun outings. Interviewer: “As we close, is there anything that you want to say? Something that you think is important to get on the record about your experience with playing baseball?” (01:22:37) The girls and myself had this extra ordinary experience playing baseball in the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. It was a time that we don’t know if ever will happen again. We were born at the right time, we were in the right place and our experience that we had then and that we have now, speaking and making this type of documentary, the honor it has given us, and we will keep doing it until the grass is above us. We love what we do—the grandmas out there now do not baby sit anymore, we’ve told our children to go get a baby sitter because we’re busy doing and telling our story to people who want to hear it. (01:23:44) Interviewer: “Thank you so much, it was a real pleasure” You’re welcome, you’re welcome. 19 �20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_DKonwinski Title A name given to the resource Konwinski, Dolores L. (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Konwinski, Dolores L. Description An account of the resource Dolly Konwinski was born on May 27, 1931 in Chicago Illinois. Starting at the age of seven, she played baseball with a neighborhood team and her father who encouraged her to pursue it. In 1947, Konwinski got her big break and tried out for one of the four teams the All American Girls Professional Baseball League was trying to form in Chicago. She began her professional career playing for the Chicago Colleens. In 1949, after the barnstorming tour she was allocated to play for the Springfield Sallies. In 1950, she was traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks and played mainly for them until 1952 but played for a brief time with the Battle Creek Belles in 1951. During her professional career she mainly played second and third base. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-10-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46e76177bf4bad76c8ed62c2bab42ddb.mp4 8f808669c7f25f4611510fdc70dfafb9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1ae86c8895cf896f1d085fc3932a4876.pdf 6b9b9c6bc6e4e3866fb497939ab903ba PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Interviewee’s Name: Ronald Konyndyk Length of Interview: 1:10:32 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman Interviewer: We’re talking today with Ron Konyndyk of Muskegon, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, so Ron, start with some background on yourself and to begin with: where and when were you born? I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan into a very good home, with a very stable home; a father that went to work every day and a mother that stayed home and took care of us kids every day, and ended up going through high school and then going on to college after that. Probably the biggest reason for going to college was to avoid the draft. Interviewer: Okay, let’s back up a little bit and fill in a couple of things. What year were you born? In 1944. Interviewer: Alright. And where was your father when you were born? He was in the Army, he had been drafted a little later on. I even had an older brother, too, so they were taking just about everybody at that time. Interviewer: Right. And you don’t know a whole lot about your father’s service career? Well, we’re digging now where we’re starting to find out some things. I have a brother and a sister that are very diligent and working to find out more. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and then what was your father doing for a living when you were growing up? He worked as an executive at a furniture company. �Interviewer: Okay. And when did you finish high school? Finished highschool in 1962, June of ‘62. Interviewer: Okay, and where did you go to college? (2:13) I went to Ferris State College in Big Rapids, Michigan. Took a few courses once and awhile at Davenport College because they would transfer back and forth. It was a little cheaper to do it that way because then I could live at home, too. Interviewer: Alright. And just divided up the college time a little bit that way, but the last two years, three years, something like that was all at Ferris State University. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you take a degree in? It was business. Interviewer: All right, now did you work while you were in school? Yes. Worked very hard because I paid my entire tuition bill myself. I guess my folks weren’t happy with the way I didn’t apply myself in high school like I probably should have, and weren’t real willing to support me in my college endeavors so I had a job, a lot of different jobs but the primary one was I was working a night shift at Keeler Brass Company two nights a week and one of the nights was Friday night, so went and did it that way. Paid very good so I was able to pay for my own car and my own tuition and my own room and board. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and when did you graduate? I graduated in May of 1967. Interviewer: All right. Now, had you already had a draft physical or something like that early on? They were constantly hounding me because there was one term where I didn’t take any classes and because of that they really started getting on my case, I just worked. I had a fella in our church that was in the real estate business—they knew I took a bunch of real estate courses and he said “Come to work for me for a while” which I did. Enjoyed that very much, should have �gone back to that after my Vietnam experience but I didn’t. But I enjoyed that and had to go back to college because the draft people were all over me at that time. It was amazing the way they kept track of me. Interviewer: Okay, so, basically did you have to demonstrate to them that you were in fact returning to school the next term? Oh yes. They had to see copies of everything. Interviewer: All right. So you knew you were already basically on their list and once you graduated you were going to get drafted. (5:00) And that’s why I was in no hurry to finish and I kept thinking that the Vietnam War was going to start to wind down and they weren’t going to need as many people but unfortunately it kept ramping up the whole time to the point where in 1967, when I graduated, boy—they were after everybody they could get. Interviewer: All right. And when did you get the draft notice? Well, I got the draft notice probably the week after I graduated, but what I was trying to do to stall things was I was trying to enlist in the Air Force, but I only wanted to do that if I could get in this specific area in Officers Training School, and I even had Jerry Ford who was my representative at that time try to help me out, but he couldn’t even get me in Officers Training School because everybody that was graduating from college was doing that. Interviewer: Right. And so then I thought, “Well, my only hope is just they’ll find a good job for me and I’ll be out in 2 years instead of 4 years.” Interviewer: Right, cause if you’re drafted, in the Army anyway, then it’s two-years. Two years, yup. Interviewer: Okay, so you are able to delay induction for a while by doing this. So when do you actually have to report for training? I reported for training, I think it was on December 7th of 1967. Interviewer: Okay. At this point what did you know about Vietnam? �I knew it was kind of a nasty war and it was escalating and… it was kind of a little bit before all the protests were coming in and that kind of stuff. Right after I got here, then that just started to explode. Interviewer: All right. Now, what’s the sequence for processing you? Where do you report initially and where do they send you? Well… I got on a bus right at the draft board in downtown Grand Rapids and they took us on a bus down to Detroit, I think it was Fort Jefferson or something like that. Interviewer: Yeah, or Fort Wayne, maybe? (7:15) Or Fort Wayne, something like that, I knew it was on Jefferson Street, I think. Because then you had to go through all your physical stuff for pretty much the whole day. Interviewer: Okay. And I always tell the story that I was on the bus with a fellow that I knew a little bit and he was determined, when he got off the bus in Detroit, that he was headed for the border because that was another way to avoid it, and never saw him again. To this day, I’ve never seen him, but he was not on the plane that night headed to Fort Knox. Interviewer: Alright, did you consider going to Canada or were you just do your thing? You know… I had pretty much made up my mind ahead of time that I had to do what I had to do and I’m sure my family would have been disappointed. There was no end to, at that time, people going to Canada. You didn’t know when you could ever come back. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now when you do the physical there at Detroit, how serious a physical was it? It was… not all—I was disappointed because they were giving me a test for colorblindness and they flipped through all the things, you had to read the number on every page and, you know, I couldn’t see a lot of them cause I do have colorblindness and the guy slammed the book shut, he said, “We’re going through this again.” I get done and he says, “Anybody ever tell you you’re color blind?” I says “Yeah, I couldn’t tell a brown uniform from a green one or a black one.” and he says, “You still pass.” Interviewer: When Uncle Sam needs you… �He needs you, it was off to Fort Knox. Interviewer: Did you notice anybody trying to scam the system in one way or another? Or do anything that would get them kicked out? No, not really. Interviewer: All right. Some people do, some don’t, so I ask. Well, if you were doing that you had to do it way ahead of the physical. Interviewer: All right, so now you basically spend a day and then they load you on up? (9:30) A charter plane… Interviewer: Okay. To Fort Nox. Interviewer: All right. That’s down in Kentucky. Yup. Interviewer: What kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox? Your world is completely changed. You gotta do everything an E-2 Corporal tells you you have to do or your in trouble, and you learn discipline that way, so and, you know, they really enforced a lot of things because what they needed was discipline. So. And then you have to go through the thing of getting all kinds of shots and getting issued all your equipment and your clothes, that kind of stuff, and assembled into different companies and your barracks. Interviewer: Were you one of the older guys there? Yes. Interviewer: Were there some other guys like you who had been to college and got drafted? �When we were in the big room with all of us—there were 180 of us and they asked how many graduated from high school. Only about half the hands went up, and then they asked how many graduated from 4 years of college and there were 4. That really told me right there. Interviewer: Okay, now then, what does the training itself consist of? We had to go through all kinds of different things. Every day was something: one day that really stood out was when we had to go in tear gas and take off our mask and tell them what our name and what our army number was and all that, and then put the gas mask back on and clear it before we could leave out of there and that was not a pleasant experience. But one of the other, we had to march up to the rifle range a lot and do a lot of different training and learn how to set all the settings on your rifle. Interviewer: And what kind of rifle were you training with? We were actually training with the… it was not the M-16, I think it was the M-14 or something like that. Interviewer: Yeah. So they didn’t have enough M-16s and it really wasn’t until much later before I was going to Vietnam that I had to go spend a day with an M-16. Interviewer: Yeah, because the M-14 is a very different weapon, it was kind of an improved version of the old World War 1 M-1. It was an antique compared to the M-16. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, and now what kind of physical shape were you in when you went in? (12:23) Not too bad, I think I weighed about 190 lbs. By the time I got out of Vietnam I was down to about 170 but by the time I was home for about 3 months I was back up to 190 in a hurry. Interviewer: All right. And how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to the army way of doing things? Actually, it was easier then what I thought it was gonna be because our drill sergeants were all from Alabama, and being at Fort Knox in January and February that year they had a ton of snow, and these guys didn’t wanna go out and get their shiny boots and their pressed pants all messed �up, so we got out of doing a lot of stuff other people had to do if they were there in better weather months. Interviewer: All right. And then what about the discipline part, did you figure out what they were doing? Oh yes, I could just see that immediately and I really looked at that as being a good thing because I think a lot of these guys ended up needing some real discipline training. It didn’t bother me, I could handle it, I had to be disciplined anyhow going through college, paying your own way. You had to get up for class, I had to come up with enough money to pay the bills, all that kind of stuff. Interviewer: So if you just did what they told you to do… Right. Interviewer: Okay, you could get through. So how long was basics? It was about 8 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. And now, at that point what happens to you? (14:06) Well, after basic then you get orders as to where you’re gonna go for your next level of training, and of course at that time most of the guys were going on to Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana and I was kind of fortunate because they had done a lot of testing on us before we really started on basic training, and one of the things in one of the tests at the very end of the test, the last item was diagraming a cathode ray tube and I had just gotten my last course at Ferris was a physical science class where we learned all about a cathode ray tube. So I could just draw that thing out and early on in basic training a captain came over one night and asked to see me in the barracks, and of course you’re scared when that happens because you think what happened, did one of your parents die or, you know, are you being accused of something you didn’t do or what’s going on? And he took me over to the day room and he put some money in a pop machine and bought me a coke and had a bunch of papers there and he says, “Yeah,” he said, “I’m in charge of testing and we have never had anybody completely diagram that cathode ray tube that I can remember, but” he says, “You did” and he says, “I got an offer for you you can’t refuse.” he said “I can send you, at this point, for” I don’t know what it was, it was almost 8 months of training at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey which was kind of known as a country club among army bases, “For electronics school, and here you have to sign for another year.” and I had to look at him and say, “No, I’m not signing.” and he says, “Well, they’ll you’ll probably go on with the rest of these guys to Fort Polk, Louisiana.” and that was the end of it. And so I went through the �rest of basic training and shortly at the day we’re all getting our orders, I open up mine and it was for Fort Monmouth, New Jersey for radio school and I didn’t have to sign up for the other year. Interviewer: How about that. And that was nice because it was like going to college. Interviewer: Okay, so what was it like? It was… going to classes and we were being tested every week for what we knew and some of the tests were they had radio stuff in front of us that we had to troubleshoot, it was always kind of funny because some of these guys were putting their tester in and they were just getting a shock and getting blown right off their stool, you know, they were kind of distracting when we were having these tests and you’re trying to troubleshoot and here the guy next to you is got blown off his stool by a shock. But, and if anybody didn’t pass they would have to go take that previous week over again and I don’t know how many times you got to do that before they booted you, but I went through right on schedule but what they told us right up front was half the class was gonna go to Aviano, Italy and the other half was going to the 52nd Signal Corps Battalion in Vietnam. So I knew I was in the Aviano, Italy part of it and the last week one of the guys that was going into the Vietnam part didn’t pass and my name being K was right in the middle and I got transferred into the Vietnam side, so all the time I was going to class there I thought “Man, I’m going to Aviano, Italy, I’m gonna enjoy this army thing.” so it’s a little devastating to get that change at the last minute. Interviewer: All right, now did they treat you differently at Monmouth than they had at Fort Knox? (18:23) Oh, totally. Totally. They just left you alone, come Saturday or Sunday, if you wanted to sleep in the barracks you could sleep in the barracks; if you wanted to go to New York, which was close by, you could go into New York; you could go out surfing, you could check out even a surfboard and go surfing at Longbranch, New Jersey if you wanted to. It was that nice. Interviewer: Okay, and how long is that school? Well, it was from February until August. Interviewer: Okay. So it wasn’t quite as long as the school they were gonna send you to with the extension cause I think they said 8 months? Or do you think it's— �Well, I was saying it’s 8 months, it was maybe 6 months-something. Interviewer: Okay, so you go the same course basically. I got the same course. Interviewer: Now what were they actually preparing you to do? Well, they wanted me to operate in microwave radio, which was kind of a line-of-sight good for maybe 40 or 60 miles depending on the terrain but when I got over to Vietnam they unloaded a whole bunch more on me and it was—we had tropospheric scatter communications and we were relaying stuff between our, you know, for the 9th infantry division and they would send guys out to a little fire base somewhere, they had to have some communications and that’s what we had to wire in so that they could be talking to whoever they needed to talk to for air strikes or ammunition or food or, whatever. Interviewer: All right. So, you have this nice extended period of training and then now you get to the end of it and you find out at the end okay, you’re going to Vietnam. Now what did they do to prepare you to go to Vietnam? (20:16) They sent me out to Fort Dix for a Saturday learning the M-16, which I did well in because I ended up getting my expert badge and I was not a big guy for guns, I didn’t hunt or didn’t collect guns or anything like that. Interviewer: But they weren’t teaching you anything about Vietnam as a place or anything like that? You were constantly hearing about it, why you were doing this and why you were doing that. Interviewer: Okay. All right, so it’s sort of integrated in your training in that sense. But that was just while you were doing the rest of your training? Training, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. All right. Now do they give you a leave home before they ship you to Vietnam? They did. Yup, I went home for a week or two or something like that. Interviewer: Okay. And now what’s the process for getting into Vietnam? �Well, I had to fly to Oakland, California where they loaded you on a plane and it was kind of a three-legged flight to Tokyo or to Yokota Air Base or something like that, and then to Okinawa and then to Vietnam. Interviewer: All right, and where do you land in Vietnam? We landed north of Saigon in Long Binh. What’s the name of the place… Interviewer: Okay, and what’s your first impression of Vietnam when you get there? The smell. It was not like anything I had experienced, so, but… it wasn’t where you were immediately cast into battle. I, you know, had to go through a few things—they even sent me out to a communications base in Vũng Tàu which was right on the South China Sea to become a little bit familiar with the equipment that I was gonna be using and then I got sent to a place called Dong Tam where they were moving the 9th Infantry Division from Bearcat into Dong Tam and so they were still building barracks, they were still clearing land. I went the first three months there without having a shower to stand under, I had to stand under the tin roof when it rained and try to scrub myself, or I had to go down to the Mekong River which was right there which was a dirty, brown river and try to bathe in there but shortly thereafter we, you know, and it could have been almost 3 months before they put a tank up in the air painted black that they would come and fill up with water, and you had this little chain you had to pull when you wanted some water on you. Interviewer: All right. So you landed in Long Binh, how long did you stay at Long Binh? (23:19) Maybe a week at most. Interviewer: Okay. What do you do during that time? Time? You’re just going to different orientations and things like that. Interviewer: Okay, and now are they trying to explain Vietnam to you or? Yeah. Interviewer: All right, anything about that training that stands out for you? �Well, they really didn’t tell me about the basics, you know, the fact that how all these communist countries were trying to expand their territory and why North Vietnam wanted South Vietnam, and they didn’t explain to me what the problem was in South Vietnam which was corruption in the government. That was never explained, figured that out on my own by what I was reading in the news and things like that. Interviewer: Okay. But they didn’t teach you anything about the local culture or customs or dos and don’ts? Not much because you did not get into those kinds of areas. Interviewer: Okay. You were separated from it. You really didn’t want to, cuz you didn’t know who was Vietcong and who… you know, who was a good Vietnamese citizen? Interviewer: And then how did they get you out to Vũng Tàu? (24:36) By helicopter. Interviewer: Okay. Had you been ridden in helicopters before or was that new? That was the first. First of many, had a lot of helicopter rides, that was the workhorse there. Interviewer: Okay, and then what was the facility of Vũng Tàu like? It was on top of a pretty high hill and it was an old French outpost, and the bunkers were still there in the side of the hill as you rode up to the top, you could see where the old cement bunkers were from the French. Interviewer: And was that area fairly quiet while you were there? That was the quietest area you could ever be in. Interviewer: All right. Because it was at the end of a long peninsula so it could be controlled. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you stay there? �I think maybe a month, something like that. Interviewer: And now what equipment were they training you on for that? They had—that was where they had the tropospheric scatter set-up. Interviewer: And explain what that is. That is where they take signals and they bounce them off the ionosphere to get a bigger distance. And there was not a direct cable between Washington D.C. and Vietnam and they were always needing secure communications that could not be interrupted, and that was just a new way to go a very long distance, whereas the microwave was very limited. Interviewer: Okay. And so you’re learning that and then was there—what facilities did you have there, what kind of barracks did you have? It was just the regular barracks that we had built the same way in Dong Tam is what there were already in Vũng Tàu. But Vũng Tàu is the main center for bouncing everything back to the US and what we ended up doing in Dong Tam really was just connecting into their stuff, we did not have as many tropospheric scatter things in Dong Tam. Interviewer: So your job was just reporting kind of from the division back to Vũng Tàu and then Vũng Tàu would send stuff. (27:07) Well we had—we did have some direct circuits going back to Washington. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and then on the base at Vũng Tàu did they have Vietnamese working there, were they all Americans? Don’t really remember Vietnamese there. Interviewer: Okay. All right, now you’re sent down to Dong Tam and describe that area. Well it was along the Mekong River, probably… I would say about 5 miles, that’s my estimation, west of a town called Mỹ Tho which was a fairly significant town. I got through it several times during my stay there, we had a little outpost down in Bến Tre that I had to go down there several times, you know, by Jeep or by truck and we did have a little outpost, too, of communications at Mỹ Tho. It was in an old…I heard it was a seminary building, but where I was in Dong Tam there was nothing there. The Marine River Force came in there and dug a little harbor for all of their boats and then beyond that they cleared a whole area for the 9th Infantry �Division. 9th Infantry Division had a lot of helicopters, too, so it was a base for a lot of helicopters. I would say 100 or 150 of them and they all had them parked between bunker walls so that if mortar rounds came in they were halfway protected, and that was what was the problem at Dong Tam was mortar rounds coming in all the time. I kept a diary while I was there and there were 183 mortar attacks during my time there. Interviewer: And that’s in… In Dong Tam. Interviewer: And how many months were you actually there, were you there a full year? I was there—I was in Vietnam a whole year but probably a good 9 or 10 months in Dong Tam. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, so that’s a pretty regular mortaring then. Yes, that was… you know, and when I say that, we might get a mortar attack and we might get one at night, you know, so that counted as two even though they were on the same day but generally we had to really take cover when we heard the first round come in because the Vietcong were burying tubes to send those, so they didn’t know if they were gonna hit our base or not, they just put them at an angle where they figured it might hit and, but if the first one hit in the base we set off the siren which told them, “Hey, that’s a good tube!” so here would come another but by the time they had the third one on the way we had something else on the way back to them to wipe out their mortar turret. So then they have to start all over. Interviewer: And so, typically in one of these attacks how many rounds would they fire? (30:28) Generally 3. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, so these were not heavy bombardments. No—well, there were some nights where you would have that happen maybe four or five times during the night. Interviewer: Did you ever get hit by rockets or anything bigger? Well these were kind of like rockets, really, I mean when they exploded that shrapnel went just everywhere and we had it come right through the walls of the barracks, I wasn’t there but two weeks and I figured out I wanted to be on the first level of the barracks, that’s where the �sandbags were around, because the guy sleeping in the bunk above me one night, his arm hanging out just above my head and a piece of shrapnel came through right through his hand and wiped out all those bones in his hand. Just. Boom. First round, hit right outside of our barracks and… that told me to move downstairs in a hurry. Interviewer: Okay. Now, lets see, you were part of a signal battalion and you were attached to the 9th Division. Yes. Interviewer: How many men from your battalion were there? I think probably only about 15. Interviewer: Okay. And was that the group that you hung out with? Yeah. Interviewer: Did you associate much with the other army guys of the 9th Division? Nope. Never—we talked to them on the radio but that was about it. Interviewer: But would you, I mean, eat with them or? Yeah we would eat with them but we never got to know them because we were always with our own people, and a lot of times were we didn’t get a lunch break; we’d have our tin tray with our food brought in to us. Interviewer: Okay. And… so what do you remember about the guys who were in your unit, are there any particular ones that stand out for you? (32:21) Well there were three that I went through my training in Fort Monmouth with. Two of them—no, three of them that were with me over there. Interviewer: And did you get along with each other? We did. We did. Got along very well. In fact one of them even after I got home, I was out in California and I stopped in to see him but the other one that we were real close to, I looked him up on the internet and he still lives in Arizona where he was from but I haven’t made any effort to contact him. �Interviewer: Okay. So, did you have a daily routine there? Well, our routine was we were on 12 hours and we were off 12 hours, 7 days a week, so if we were writing letters or doing tape recordings or whatever we had to do it in the 12 hours that we were not on. And we kind of alternated back and forth; we’d work days for a while and I would work nights, that was like from 7 am to 7 at night or you started at 7 at night and worked till 7 in the morning. Interviewer: Okay. And so how much activity do you have on a shift? Were you constantly sending or resending messages? Yeah. There were all kinds of new things that had to be wired in to our communications man and things that—circuits that were not working that we had to troubleshoot, find out what was wrong, that sort of thing. And we had to do enemy activity reports. We had small equipment repairs and sometimes we would even have to take a piece of equipment back to Vũng Tàu because that’s where the repair shop was and get it repaired. Then we got to stay there a day or two while they repaired it and they had the nice beach there where we could hang out, so that wasn’t—we kinda fought for that, to be able to take a piece of equipment back. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you have a sense of, given what you were doing, of sort of how the war was going or at least how the war in your area was going? (34:40) Well, you know, every report we got was that we were just knocking em dead, we were stacking up Vietcong body bags and, you know? But we were losing people, too. But, you know, we had to rely too much on information from the news media back in the states and I know from the enemy activity reports that we sent in that they were not being reported accurately and I can remember one that we typed up during the night, I mean we got hit by I think it was 4 bazooka rounds. Hardly made note of it, you know, but so we sent that in that way that during the night at various times we got hit by four rounds of bazooka but no damage, no casualties. Then my parents send me the clipping back from the newspaper and it says that Dong Tam weathered an all night bazooka barrage, so, you know, the news people were starting on that then already and really started turning the country against the war. Interviewer: Well that’s a piece of a rather bigger puzzle but yeah, after the Tet Offensive coverage… Ramped up. �Interviewer: Ramped up a lot, yeah. And that’s something I heard from a lot of different people who were there, even somebody who was at Dong Tam talking about talking to journalists and stuff and finding out what they were doing, what would the editors wanted and didn’t want and everything else, so that’s all going on but from as far as you could tell it was kind of being successful at what it was trying to do? Well they had kind of not concentrated on that area much, and as a result the Vietcong kind of infiltrated it and then the Navy's riverine force came in there to that river because they were coming down through Cambodia and taking all their supplies into the Vietcong down that river, and I remember flying over it in a helicopter and I mean it’s just, pothole after pothole after pothole where the sides of that river had been bombed. So. Interviewer: All right. Okay, now at Dong Tam do you have Vietnamese working on the base there? We did, yeah. But what they generally were was the wives and kids of Vietnamese who were serving in the army of the Republic of Vietnam, that’s who they trusted to do that and we had absolutely no problem with it. Interviewer: Okay, and what kind of jobs do they do? They, in some cases, washed our clothes, they shined our boots, changed our bedding. Yeah, we had it pretty good, really. Interviewer: Oh so did you…where you were quartered were all 15 of you basically in the same building? (37:57) Yes. Same barracks. Interviewer: And then did you have any of these, you know, women working for you as hooch maids or do you have somebody who washed your clothes or things like that? Yeah it was pretty regular, we had an older woman and her daughter that serviced our area, so. Interviewer: Okay. And… Paid ‘em just about nothing. You know? Interviewer: But in Vietnam it was something. �It was something, yeah. Interviewer: All right. Now, what was it like to go out to some of these smaller bases, what do you remember about that? That was… you know, it was scary. Cause you were out in the open and we had it one time where somebody did take some shots at us from a tree but in the back of the truck were guys with M-16s and next thing you know his body’s falling out of the tree. So. Interviewer: So that’s when you were en route from one place to another? Yeah. Interviewer: And did you have to worry about mines or IEDs? Yup, cause we had several guys that were in our barracks that were not in our unit but they had rode over them and lost arms and whatnot, even got killed some of em. Even got killed. And we had one group, you know, from Mỹ Tho that was trying to bring some equipment, I think it was, over to us and they did it at night and they should have never been out at night, and they got shot right out of their Jeep. Just… they own the night. The Vietcong own the night. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did the pattern of enemy activity change much over the course of the year you were there? No. Interviewer: Okay, so it’s still pretty much the same. (39:45) Yup. Yeah it… it just didn’t seem like there was great progress. Interviewer: Yeah. Were there ever incidents where sappers tried to get into the wire or get into the base? There was one time that was during a Tet Offensive where they wanted—they tried to come over the barrier along our little air strip, and our air strip was all these sections of metal that were pieced together. Interviewer: Right. �And I can still remember a Cobra helicopter come down along that berm that was right along the runway there and as he was shooting down it was like somebody was throwing a bunch of shiny tin can covers up in the air because they were bouncing off that metal work, but that pretty much got stem, they did get to an oil tank and set that off but that was really about the extent of it. Interviewer: Okay, and that was Tet ‘69? Yes. Interviewer: Yeah. Cause normally when we say Tet Offensive we think ‘68 but the fact was that there was one that day. That’s one’s talking about ‘68 was the one… there was one in ‘69 too, but it was much much weaker than the on ein ‘68. Interviewer: Right. So for the most part you could kind of go about your business on the base except for dodging the mortars. Yup. Interviewer: Now, when the mortar attacks came could you go into a bunker? We had a big, heavy duty bunker and there was one instance where… I forget where I was but I wanted to get back to the bunker, I knew rounds were coming in, so I was out in the open with another guy and we were running to get to the bunker and he got to the doorway of the bunker and I was, you know, three or four feet behind him so I was not to the doorway yet and one of the rounds hit our ammunition dump. And when that thing went up that was a concussion explosion I just will never forget, I’ve never experienced anything like that. It curled up the tin, our corrugated tin on our roofs; it blew the screens out of the window and the fella that was ahead of me got pushed into the bunker by the force of the concussion. I got knocked off my feet, I was laying on the ground, but he felt all kinds of stones and stuff hit him in the back, which he thought a mortar round had landed right behind him and blew him in and that his back was full of holes. And I kind of crawled into the bunker and he saw me crawl in and he thought I was gone and I was fine. And we had took about five minutes to convince him he had no holes in his back, but he was good, it was just stones that had hit him, so. Interviewer: Alright. And… did you get—so when you went into other places, what would you, if you went to Ben Het or you went to Mỹ Tho or something like that, what were you doing? (43:07) �Bringing equipment. Exchanges, that sort of thing. A couple times I went with our commanding officer with the payroll, that was probably the most, and a lot of times I wouldn’t mind doing it cuz if I went down to Ben Tre the nice thing about being at Ben Tre was they had flush toilets. Something we didn’t have, that was a treat. Interviewer: Now, did you do anything in the villages or towns outside of the bases or did you kind of just stick to bases? No, just didn’t trust everything. Interviewer: Now was there some kind of village or settlement outside of Dong Tam, did the Vietnamese congregate there at all? No. Nope, it was out kind of in the middle of nowhere. Interviewer: So the people who worked on the base, did they come in from Mỹ Tho? They came in from Mỹ Tho, they had their motor scoots with five, ten people piled on a motor scooter. It was hilarious to see how many people they could fit on a motor scooter. The only thing we did once and awhile was we would have to leave the base to go to the garbage dump, because when these mortar rounds would come in there would be a bunch of tin that was chewed up and screens that got stuff and a bunch of wood with holes in it and it would all get loaded on a truck and we’d take it to the dump, and that was always interesting cause the stuff never made it to the dump. When you were turning down the road to go into the dump the grandmothers were all sitting along the side of the road and they had all these little grandchildren that would come up running for the truck, and they would wanna be on that truck while it was still moving and start sorting through what was on it and throw it off, and then somebody down on the ground would take it and drag it back to grandma and she would guard it. But by the time we got to the actual dump there wasn’t much to unload. Sometimes there wasn’t even anything. Turn around and come home, and I actually saw houses built out of wood that when our mortar rounds came in these wooden boxes and homes were built out of the lumber from those wooden boxes. Interviewer: All right. Now, did you get any R&R time while you were in Vietnam? (45:39) I did. In fact I managed 2 of them, and the way I did that is I took the first one to Singapore because I thought, “Boy, Singapore is some place that’s gonna be very hard to get to later in life.” so I went there and spent a week there and it was wonderful, it just blew me away what a modern city that was, was more modern than anything I had seen in the United States. And then shortly before I was leaving, it was really at the beginning of August, I found out that all the R&R slots we had for our company weren’t being used because some of the guys, you had to �show you had a certain amount of money before you could go, and these guys they couldn’t save any money or they were sending it all home to their wife or whatever, but there was a slot open at the beginning of August. I thought, “I got the money, I’m gonna take it.” so I took an R&R to Australia which was their winter but I was a skater so I got on a plane in Sydney and I flew on to a town called Kuma in the mountains and went skiing at Thredbo, and that was a real treat. Had my nose dripping and it’s cold after having been in Vietnam, so. Interviewer: All right. But I wasn’t sending money home to my parents or a wife or anything like that, so. Interviewer: And you weren’t squandering it in gambling or…? There really wasn’t much chance to do that because you could go to PX, you could buy beer for 10 cents a can, a pack of cigarettes for 20 cents not that I smoked, but I did buy some stereo equipment through the PX in Japan and had it sent to my brother, but that was about all I could spend money on and I was getting hazardous duty pay, I was E-5 and all that, so. Interviewer: Okay. And I guess without a town there, there weren’t as many opportunities for people to squander their money on things they shouldn’t be doing. No. But a lot of guys were, you know, they were buying a bunch of junk out of the PX, junk food. So we did have a PX on our base. Interviewer: Right. You could get a lot of stuff from. Interviewer: Okay. Now, there are a variety of stereotypes about what we on in Vietnam and so, I kind of asked just to see what your take was, but one of them has to do with the use of drugs. Were there people on the base who were using different things? Yeah. Interviewer: What did you observe? (48:21) There were a few. There were a few and marijuana was the thing of choice but I to this day have never touched marijuana, never wanted to because I guess going over there, my whole thing was I wanted to come home. I wanted to make it home and if you’re drunk or you don’t have all your facilities about you and something happens, I want to have my wits about me at all times and I �saw this happen one night, that one guy he had had way too much beer or marijuana or something but we were watching a movie on the side of the building, had painted one of the sides of the building white and we would get movies every so often and they would show a movie. And during the movie, oop, hear a mortar round comes in not too far away and once you knew one was coming in there was gonna be the two more following and they’re going to be right in that same area, and so this one was close and on the way to the bunker which wasn’t that far away he tripped because he didn’t see one of the things that we were sitting on—we had a bunch of big timbers that we were sitting on and he didn’t see it and he tripped right over it and he caught a lot of shrapnel. He survived it but we never saw him again, but he ended up going to Japan for treatment and that just enforces it in your mind that you wanna take a drug like that? And risk not having all your facilities about you when it comes time when you need them? Interviewer: Okay. Another thing that comes up is the question of race and racial tensions, I mean, was your little unit all white or did you have a mix of guys? We had a mix. And I was, you know, the army was really one of the places where I really got thrown in the mix because when I was in School of Commerce there at Ferris there weren’t many people of color or even different ethnicities there, I mean it was just mainly white guys. Interviewer: Yeah. So, but got along beautifully we had no problems no issues and if they were in the signal battalion they knew how to live, they knew how to act, there weren’t those kinds of problems. Interviewer: Right. Okay, and I mean that’s typical of units like that in Vietnam as far as I can tell. (51:08) I don’t know what it was like in an infantry unit. Interviewer: Okay. Now, to think back over the time that you spent in Vietnam are there other particular incidents that kind of stand out in your memory or things that you think of when you think of being there? There were a lot of hazardous, you know, I would say close calls. You don’t get them out of your mind, I mean they stick with you and some things you never found out what happened. For instance, one time I was taking a piece of equipment in to Vũng Tàu to have it repaired and I was in a string of helicopters, there were probably 3 of them and I was in the last one. And the first one, all of a sudden, boom big old cloud of smoke, and then we went around and came back towards where that smoke was coming from and they dropped down to a level that was right at treetop and they old helicopter was just moving up like this, you know, so it couldn’t get shot at. �Where it’s like the helicopter was hanging on the end of a rope and just going all over the place, and one of the pilots said to me, “Unhook your seatbelt and lay on the floor, cause we’re gonna be landing.” and just as we landed I could see a helicopter coming from the other way that put a smokescreen across the opening and then we were right up against some trees and we weren’t on that ground for four or five seconds, and here these two guys come running out of the trees with their helmets on, with their cords hanging in it. They jump in the helicopter and they plug in and they’re talking to the two pilots. In the meantime that helicopters all of a sudden taking off, they didn’t tell me to get back in or fasten my seatbelt, all of a sudden I’m laying on the floor holding on to the supports of the seat keeping from sliding out because they took off on a real slant, and when I got to Vũng Tàu the helicopter never landed. They hovered at about 3 feet off the ground and had me jump off with the piece of equipment. I never found out what happened—did they get shot down? Did something blow up in the airplane or, you know, what happened? I have a feeling they got shot down, but I don’t know. Interviewer: Yeah… all right. So, other incidents that kind of stand out for you? Yeah it was just the damage that was done by that ammo dump blowing up. It was all over the base, it was just tremendous. You know, I never knew where the ammo dump was, I never knew what was in it, nothing like that. Interviewer: Was it just a single explosion? Single explosion. Just absolutely rocked everything. Interviewer: Alright. Now as you got close to the time for your year in Vietnam to end, were you counting down the days or keeping track of it? Oh, everybody had a calendar with it marked down and I had a decision in June that—I don’t know who it was, was it Nixon?---was gonna be removing some people and wanted the Army Republic of Vietnam to take over some of the areas, and our base was one of them and so at the beginning of June they said, “You can go outta here early and go back to—” it was Hawaii to the Schofield Barracks, “and serve out the rest of your year over there, or you can stay til the end of August and get out and go home.” So I thought, “Well, you know, if they’re doing this chances are I can survive it here and then I’m out four months of three months early.” and that really worried me after I made that decision, I was committed, and the Army of the Republic of Vietnam was coming in and they just didn’t have it, you know? I was worried for my safety. Interviewer: So they were now coming on to the base and providing base security and that kind of thing? (55:55) �Right, right. Interviewer: What did you see of them or what impression did they make on you? Well, one thing we noticed is one morning, outside of our barracks, we had a nice drinking fountain—-it’s gone. So. We were worried about our stuff being stolen and one thing that I had there was. when somebody was rotating out of the country they had one of these small refrigerators that they had just come out with and they were the neatest little things, and the guy was getting out at the end of the month when nobody had any money so the price that he was getting for that refrigerator was going down, down, down. Finally I got it for $25 but I had that thing there and I would sell beers in the bunkers, you know, after a mortar attack really calmed down and we would have to wait for the all clear and sometimes we’d have to wait a half an hour even though we knew everything had calmed down. Well I could sneak in and get a couple of beers, I could sell em for a couple bucks a piece in the bunker and so I more than got my money out of it, but I was afraid that thing was gonna be gone. Interviewer: A little bit different question—your radio equipment that you were using, was that in a bunker or a building or a trailer, what was it in? Part of it, most of it, was in a bunker which we had 10 by 10 timbers over top of us with sand bags all the way around it, and then we had another communications trailer that was not bunkered very well with sandbags outside and most of our communications stuff was on a couple scaffold towers, and we had the antennas up there and about halfway up a couple spotters would sit in there all day, too, to spot the rounds that were coming in, so they used it for that. One of the times there, it was kind of funny that somebody went and had a bulldozer, I forget what they were doing, but they backed into one of the guy-wires holding up that scaffolding and it just twisted right down to the ground. There’s two guys in it, they just rode it right to the ground, unfortunately all of our antennas came down with it and it wasn’t that hard to put it back up, which we did and you know started hooking everything back up, and I went for a 36-hour stretch there with not a break, you know, getting everything hooked back up because these guys out in the field were just absolutely dependent on our communications and we got it back up in 36hours and our commanding officer was bringing us our food so we weren’t gonna take time in the mess hall, and we get the thing back up and operating I already said within 36-hours and he gets the brown star. Interviewer: Well… Yeah, I figured out that’s how the army works and, you know. �Interviewer: All right, now your story is featured in a book by a local author, Rick Vuyst, who met different veterans and so forth and talked with, and one of the things he noted in the book was that you took a lot of pictures. Yeah. Interviewer: How did that come about? (59:29) Well I bought one of these little small Instamatic cameras that came up, they were really neat and I could carry it in the pocket and, you know, if it was bad weather or whatever I could even have it in a little plastic bag just to keep it dry. Interviewer: Right. But yeah, I was out snapping pictures all the time, I was having a good time doing that and they were on a little plastic—there were like 20 pictures on a little plastic case, and then you would send them in to have them developed and I would have them sent back to my parents and they’d send them back to me first, and now what I would do is I would look at them and I would give a description as to what was going on on each one of them and then I ended up doing that with about 600 slides, and unfortunately today I don’t know what happened to most of them, I’ve still got about 150 of them. You know, I tell a good story but… I’m just baffled as to where they went. Interviewer: But when you got back from Vietnam did you just put all that stuff away? Yup. Yeah, it all… like I said, it got packaged in a box and…that was it. Interviewer: Okay, so when you’re winding down, getting into the last days, how many days in advance did you know when you were leaving? (1:00:53) You left right on the—the day was already assigned. Interviewer: Okay. Now, I kind of cheated and wanted to get out of that base so I kind of went there to the outprocess, I think, two days ahead of time hoping I could get out 2 days early. They wouldn’t let me. But we left out of that Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon and that was quite a trip when you got a plane loaded of guys and you clear the coastline of Vietnam, there was just cheering and there wasn’t highfives back in those days, same kind of activity. We were all very happy that we were on the way home, we’d cleared the airspace, but then when we got back to Oakland nobody �was ready for us. It was Friday night of Labor Day weekend and everybody had the weekend off, so we’re sitting there: no food, no physicals, no nothing and finally one of the guys—I don’t know if it was on Saturday or whatever—went and called his congressman. And all of a sudden on Sunday, boy, there were a few people starting to show up and we started to get processed out Sunday afternoon, and I got on an airplane—they held the door for me at the San Francisco Airport, if you can imagine, to make a flight to Chicago. So I never even had a chance to call my parents until I got to Chicago. Interviewer: And then did you— And I had to fly out to Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Alright. So, but they did at least outprocess you—I mean it was some kind of discharge process for you on that Sunday? But it was very minimal, you know, I didn’t get a physical, I didn’t get a dental check, all this kind of—I didn’t get my medals, you know? None of that. That was just bare basics, just enough paperwork so that you could get out and get on an airplane. Interviewer: Okay. And now, once you get back home again now what do you do? (1:03:02) Well, the job that I had I could go back to, so my parents had a bunch of people over on Labor Day at their house so all the relatives were there, and then come Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday I had the luck to buy a car because I wanted to start work the following Monday and went right back to my job that following Monday. Just put everything behind me and… all done. Interviewer: That was with the real estate job? No this was when I graduate from Ferris, Keeler Brass Company in Grand Rapids wanted me to work as a production controller cause I’d worked on a lot of different departments there or the time that I was working there part time, you know, going to school. Became production controller for a few months, went to Vietnam, came right back to that job again. Stayed in that job a couple months and then I got transferred to customer service, and then I got moved to High Point, North Carolina as their salesman in High Point, North Carolina because they made furniture and hardware. Interviewer: Okay. So go on to a career from there. Yeah. �Interviewer: Alright. Now, lets see, and somewhere along the line you get married too? Yes. That was after I got back from Vietnam, you know, every girl I’d ever known was married and had a couple kids already, you know, but I did met my wife Mary and she was 8 years younger than I was but we got married and we gotta celebrate 47 years here in another couple months. Interviewer: All right. So how did you wind up back in Michigan? Keeler Brass moved me down. Keeler Brass Company got sold, and after they got sold I wasn’t real happy with the new people that bought the company, and in the meantime one of my big customers for Keeler Brass that I worked with down there was the Lane Furniture Company, and they wanted me to be their rep back in Michigan. So they moved me back to Grand Rapids with my 3 kids. Interviewer: All right. And then has… did the Vietnam experience have any kind of lasting side effects, mental or physical? Well the physical is when I was age 60 I came down with the prostate cancer from the agent orange because that’s how they cleared that whole base where I was, and I didn’t really realize it at the time, all of a sudden I’m in for a physical and my doctor says, “Boy, all of a sudden you PSA number took a good jump. But it’s not danger level, “ he says, “I think something’s wrong.” So they sent me to a urologist, had it checked, says yeah your prostates about 40% cancer and I says, “What do we do about it?” He says “Well, you can do seeds but I won’t guarantee that,” he says, “You could just let it go and die,” he says, “Or, we can do robotic surgery but that’s not always a sure thing either,” he says, “Or, I can just cut you open and do it by hand because, “ he says, “I think I can do the best job that way.” So 8 days later my prostate was gone, but unfortunately after a few years the cancer was back again, so then I went in for 8 weeks of radiation, every day for 8 weeks, and it got through that and looked good for awhile. Couple years later, back again, and that’s what they said about it is, you know, comes on early, you know, at age 60. Comes on very aggressively and it’s very hard to knock it out, so I’m still living with it today, here—what is it. 15 years later? Interviewer: Right. Okay, now does the VA recognize this as… Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. (1:07:26) They did right away. �Interviewer: All right. Right away. I didn’t realize the VA was even in existence until this happened and then everybody kept telling me, “Well you gotta contact the VA.” Interviewer: Okay, and have you had any PTSD type issues? Well I got tested for it right afterward. You know, I was feeling a little depressed after the surgery because, hey they take a very important part of you away, and they tested me and I should have taken in how long the list, but it was a whole bunch of things that I suffered from, but, you know, I never thought they were bad but my wife realized she didn’t like some of them. But, you know, so it helped us meet and figure out why I was doing the things I was doing and when she could understand it and, you know, gave me a little better understanding of why I was doing these things we ended up getting along a lot better. Interviewer: Okay, so, now were these—there’s a lot of different kinds of ways in which the PTSD manifests itself. Sometimes people get angry, they get violent, they just have peculiar behavior patterns. Can you give an example of what yours was like? (1:08:47) Well, you know, the one thing that bugged my wife, you know, we’d go to a motel or hotel or something like that and I was always checking out how many steps it was from the door to the fire escape, you know, and she couldn’t understand that but for me I always had to know the escape routes, I always had to know directions, I was very nutty about directions, maps, which way was north, you know. A lot of crazy things and my ever-vigilance was just driving her nuts because I was always trying to plan what we would do if this happened and then what we would do if that happened and have it all planned out that way. So. Interviewer: And you kind of lived with that all those years and then you kinda figure it out. Years, and then all of a sudden here it was in black and white in front of me: why I was doing what I was doing and she could see why I was doing what I was doing and what it did for our relationship was a lot better as a result. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were there positive things that you took out of your service time? Yeah… it was the discipline part of it. I knew what I had to do, why I had to do it, and that people depended on me when I was in service and in business it was gonna be the same way. �You know, if the company I was working for wasn’t making a profit I wasn’t going to advance, I wasn’t going to advance, I wouldn’t be getting a better job. Interviewer: All right. So, the whole thing makes for a pretty good story, so I’d just like to thank you for coming and sharing it today. No, thank you for the opportunity. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KonyndykR2315V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Konyndyk, Ronald Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06 Title A name given to the resource Konyndyk, Ronald (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Ronald Konyndyk was born in 1944 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where he lived a comfortable childhood and attended local schools. Konyndyk’s father had been drafted into the Army during the Second World War and later worked as an executive at a furniture company. He graduated high school in 1962 and attended Ferris State University for a degree in business, which he achieved in 1967. A week after he graduated, Konyndyk received a draft notice, and on December 7, 1967, he reported to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for Basic Training. After Basic Training, he was specially selected and transferred to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, for a year of Electronics School during which he learned to operate and repair radio communication systems. He was assigned to an old French outpost in a quiet sector of Vietnam before being transferred to the Signal Battalion of the 9th Infantry Division at a more active forward operating base. When he visited smaller forward operating bases in the field to conduct equipment exchanges, Konyndyk remembered being frequently out in the open and working in fear of being fired upon from the jungle. During the Tet Offensive in 1969, North Vietnamese sappers attempted to breach the barrier alongside his base’s airstrip and were successful in destroying one fuel tank before being apprehended. During enemy mortar attacks, he and his peers retreated to an enormous bunker built on the base. While on the base, Konyndyk noticed several cases of drug use amongst the troops, particularly with marijuana, as well as how the units were well integrated without much racial tension. He also purchased a small personal slide camera which he used everywhere he went in the field, accumulating approximately 600 photos over his tour in Vietnam. When his tour ended, Konyndyk was flown from Tan Son Nhut Air Base near Saigon back to the United States where he began the process of leaving the service, where some soldiers never received a physical or their military medals. At sixty years old, Konyndyk developed prostate cancer from his exposure to Agent Orange during his service in Vietnam. Reflecting upon his service, Konyndyk believed the psychological impact of Vietnam contributed towards his paranoia concerning safety, direction, and planning associated with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. He also believed that the service taught him the positive values of discipline and responsibility. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d409b1ab3fba5e84c0ef25ae06475fb.pdf c210406dbc774b37251481499e778030 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Wayne Kooy Cold War Era 8 minutes 16 seconds (00:00:05) -Born April 26th, 1932. -Served in the US Army attaining the highest rank of E2. -Born in Lansing, Illinois in their home. -Family of 5 siblings, one girl and four boys. -Worked for nine months an electrical engineer before the military. -Drafted in March of 1955. -Took basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. -Nicknamed Fort Lost in the Woods, Misery. -Due to being deferred to complete college, he was slightly older entering the service. -Older by about four years. -Worked with the S & P. -Took a basic electrical engineering class in Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. -“Very basic” a “simple review” due to his experience. -At Fort Monmouth he attended class for the summer. -Next he was sent to White Sands in New Mexico. -Worked in the meteorological division to make devices to measure weather. (3:30) -Example of one device: created to measure the phase-shift. -Resided at White Sands for 18 months. -The military did not suit him. -Disliked the lack of choice and independence. -Had one pay dispute with his authorities. -Did not have any trouble returning to civilian life. -Returned to the job he had prior. -A few friends from the military are still in touch. -Would not say that he enjoyed the military, but didn’t find it distasteful. -The experience was somewhat useful in life. -Discipline was a worthwhile characteristic. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KooyW1831V Title A name given to the resource Kooy, Wayne John (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-26 Description An account of the resource Wayne Kooy was born in Lansing, Illinois on April 26th, 1932. He was drafted in March of 1955 and had basic training in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. In the Army he used his electrical engineering skills to craft and maintain meteorological devices in White Sands, New Mexico. With his time in the military he achieved the rank of E2 at his highest ranking. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kooy, Wayne John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kooy, Brendon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf