458
24
26018
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Naval Recognition Training Slides
Subject
The topic of the resource
Slides
Military education
Airplanes, Military--Recognition
Warships--Recognition
World War, 1939-1945
Description
An account of the resource
Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
United States. Navy
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
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image/jpg
Language
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eng
Type
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image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-50
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1943-1953
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Source
<a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-50_1718
Title
A name given to the resource
Kirov class heavy cruiser
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
United States. Navy
Description
An account of the resource
Kirov class Russian CA (heavy cruiser), October 1, 1947.
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States. Navy
Military education
World War, 1939-1945
Slides
Warships--Recognition
Russia
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1947-10-01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/340b385ce14938f63df348560df421d1.jpg
5a0c746b03b8abc205291afb9dec1dd8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Naval Recognition Training Slides
Subject
The topic of the resource
Slides
Military education
Airplanes, Military--Recognition
Warships--Recognition
World War, 1939-1945
Description
An account of the resource
Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
United States. Navy
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-50
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1943-1953
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Source
<a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-50_1719
Title
A name given to the resource
Kirov class heavy cruiser
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
United States. Navy
Description
An account of the resource
Kirov class Russian CA (heavy cruiser), October 1, 1947.
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States. Navy
Military education
World War, 1939-1945
Slides
Warships--Recognition
Russia
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1947-10-01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c0989ba2096bc1d77b6dcc9bc6ee7c6b.mp4
ed6b6ca424e0c3fb37cb1346bae387c0
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a58ed980e06b943baa84a4f1581f36d.pdf
0794ceef190406e3ee742f39d484ce5c
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Gunther Kirschner
(42:20)
Background information (00:11)
Born in October of 1948 in Germany. (00:14)
His mother was German but his father was an American Soldier who fought in WWII. (00:30)
He arrived in the U.S. in 1952. (1:11)
He settled in McKinney Texas. They resided there because his mother was required to have a
sponsor to immigrate to the U.S. and his mother’s sponsor lived in Texas. (1:19)
His mother wanted to come to the U.S. primarily for the economic environment. (2:00)
He resided in Texas for about a year then moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1953. (2:11)
He attended Forest Hills High School. (2:40)
He was an only child. (2:48)
He graduated college in 1968. (2:55)
After he graduated he worked in the warehouse for Amway until he was drafted in February of
1969. (3:00)
At the time he was drafted he knew very little about the Vietnam War. (3:17)
He had very little dramatic reaction to his draft notice. (3:46)
He was required to go to Detroit for a physical before being sworn in. (4:12)
He failed to notice any blatant tempts by other soldiers to evade the draft. However, he did
notice the wide variety of attitudes the men had toward the conflict. (4:33)
Basic training (4:50)
Attended basic in Fort Knox Kentucky (4:55)
He thought basic training was a very difficult and intimidating experience. (5:00)
Men from across the country were at Fort Knox. (5:33)
He believed that the drill sergeants were fair. (6:11)
The physical training was fairly difficult and included many physical exercises. At the time he
joined he was small and thin. (6:44)
Basic lasted approx. 2-2.5 months. (7:18)
During basic, men were given aptitude tests. Gunther tested highly in mechanics. (7:30)
He received advanced infantry training and was not given any sort of engineer or mechanical
training. (7:58)
He did his AIT at Fort Polk, Louisiana. Here the base was hot and humid and it rained almost
every day. (8:08)
He recalls being prepared fairly heavily for combat in Vietnam including increased firing range
training as well as some jungle training. (8:50)
Most of the sergeants had served in Vietnam already. However they never spoke about there
experience. (9:00)
The men trained on the M60, M16, and M14.
Upon the completion of AIT, he was given a week leave to return home. After words he would
report to Oakland California. (10:11)
�Arrival in Vietnam (11:00)
He flew from Grand Rapids to Oakland and then from Oakland to Vietnam in Uniform. He recalls
having been treated kindly. (10:30)
The ship landed in Guam before arriving in Vietnam. The men were allowed to get of the plane.
(11:24)
The men landed in Bien Hoa Vietnam in August of 1969. He recalls the country having a very odd
scent. (11:55)
Upon landing the men were given more training on jungle terrain for approx 1 week. This
training was fairly applicable in the field. (12:40)
He was then sent to Camp Evans. (13:40)
He was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, D Company.
(14:15)
When he joined, his unit he didn’t think morale was too low but he did know that they were in
combat fairly recently. (15:19)
The men stayed in bunkers and barracks. (15:38)
Service in Vietnam (16:00)
He recalls going out on patrols with his company soon after being assigned to it. (16:26)
Whenever out on patrol, the men were delivered to their destination via helicopter. They often
patrolled on hilly terrain. (17:43)
The patrols often lasted a few days. (18:30)
He did theses patrols often during his entire service in Vietnam. He never had to go into a hot
landing zone. (19:05)
The patrolling operations could be platoon or company sized however most often it was platoon
sized. (19:50)
There were approx. 8 men in his squad. (20:02)
The men would sometimes utilize trails. (20:44)
The unit did run into booby traps during patrols but this did not result in any casualties. (21:00)
The unit set up an ambush but were never ambushed themselves. (21:16)
Though he did not see any intense combat, he often heard of units engaging in heavy fire only a
few kilometers away. (22:08)
At night the men in the unit took turns being guards and booby traps were set up to warn of
approaching North Vietnamese. They were never attacked at night. (22:30)
The more experienced members had told stories of combat they saw. They were very happy
that they hadn’t seen much combat after Gunther’s arrival in August of 1969. (23:05)
The men were well equipped and supplied. (23:30)
He stayed at Firebase Jack which was a smaller part of the larger Camp Evans. (24:42)
Life in Vietnam (25:00)
He witnessed drug use while in service both in the field and during camp. (25:20)
Men most often smoked marijuana. It was not uncommon for men to smoke in the field near
sergeants in spite it being a court-martial offence. (25:35)
�
He managed to make close friends during his service in his unit. (26:00)
He accepted that he was in Vietnam and had a sense of pride about being in the armed forces.
(26:54)
He recalls two instances when he was very afraid for his life. One was when his unit was shelled
the other was in the DNZ and he was shelled again by U.S. artillery. (27:19)
There was some turnover in his unit. (28:08)
He had trouble with jungle infections. When he was infected it took him a very long time to get
out of the field due to it being the monsoon season. (28:30)
He was flown to a hospital ship off the coast of Vietnam. Here the infection was controlled.
(29:40)
After having healed he was given a choice to stay in Vietnam or return to the U.S. he choose to
return home. (30:52)
He was then sent to a hospital in Japan before being sent to Walter Reed Medical Center.(30:58)
Service in the U.S. (31:00)
After leaving Walter Reed, he was sent to Fort Meade, Maryland. Here he was made a tank
driver and trained to control riots in Washington D.C. (31:30)
He was never called upon to control a riot. He was however mad a bus driver for the base
(32:00)
He was an E4 in Vietnam and an E5 in the U.S. (32:40)
He doesn’t believe drug use in the platoon caused problems in the field. (33:00)
He did not witness racial tensions within his own company. (33:10)
He didn’t notice any racial self-segregation on the base in Vietnam. (34:43)
The officers performed their tasks and were competent. (35:08)
While he served in the 101st, the company was banned from villages due to the bad reputation
they had built up prior to his arrival. (35:45)
Vietnamese worked on the bases and often preformed KP duty. (37:07)
There were other companies at Camp Evans who saw combat and took heavy casualties. (37:40)
He received in country R&R while in Vietnam in a beach area near the China Sea. He received
the opportunity to go out of country but it was during a period in which we was medevaced.
(38:02)
When I the U.S. he did understand that the military was attempting to scale back. (40:00)
Life after service (post February 1971)(40:25)
He returned to the Amway after his discharge in 1971 to work. (40:30)
He used his GI bill for truck driver training. (40:35)
He began his painting career in 1984.(40:50)
The service left positive effects on him and he was proud to have served his country. He valued
the discipline and emphases on team work the military provides. (41:15)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
KirschnerG1328V
Title
A name given to the resource
Kirschner, Gunther (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kirschner, Gunther
Description
An account of the resource
Gunther Kirschner, born in October of 1948 in Germany, moved to the U.S. at a young age and lived near Grand Rapids Michigan. After completing high school he was drafted into the U.S. Army. Gunther served from August of 1969 to February of 1971, spending several months as a rifleman in the 101st Airborne Diviision during the Vietnam Conflict. While he was with his unit, his company was not heavily engaged, although other units in his battalion and brigade were. His tour was cut short by infections, and he was sent home for treatment, and completed his service in the U.S.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-12-01
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/580f1b63d93788dde92adc76f7e81103.mp4
757d7491cc08e0d76f6d5b344bf31c4c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a54d07e655b86143eafd67d188336b25.pdf
7f2058a92efafa34393e0fe5ceabc2c9
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Dale Kissinger
Vietnam War
Total Time: 1:19:00
Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (0:00:0)
•
•
•
•
•
•
Born in Gary, Indiana in 1948.
Attended High School in Valparaiso, Indiana.
Father worked in a steel mill, and he paid his way through college the same way.
Attended Trinity College in Deerfield, Illinois.
Joined the Air Force in 1972.
He was motivated to join the Air Force because his draft number was low and
recruiters came to him with the option of joining pilot school.
Training (0:02:10)
•
•
•
•
•
•
He was given the option to go into helicopter pilot training school.
Attended basic helicopter pilot training at Fort Walters, Texas. They would
practice maneuvers including takeoff and landing, and the basics of field landings.
From there, he went to Fort Rucker, Alabama where he took Advanced Helicopter
Training and learned difficult maneuvers.
(0:04:30) After flight training, he attended several different survival schools,
including the Water Survival School in Homestead, Florida and then did Land
Survival in Washington.
His wife travelled with him during this time.
Was taught his specific aircraft, The UH-1 Huey, at Hill Air Force Base. His
assignment was initially to go to Andrews Air Force Base. However he ended up
at Indian Springs, NV.
Active Duty (0:06:50)
• At Indian Springs, his job was to fly over the underground nuclear test program
and monitor the activity around the site. Mostly worked in a support role.
• Had some experience setting up an Air Force test program which allowed him
some high altitude flying experience
• His base was very small, and there were around 11 or 12 men in the unit. They
were around 100 miles from Las Vegas, Nevada.
• (0:10:25) He was stationed there for 4 years.
• (0:11:05) Was then transferred to Howard Air Force Base in Panama in 1977,
where he was stationed there for 4 years. While he was there for 3 years.
• While they were in Panama, he worked in the Canal Zone.
• He worked as an instructor for a time for the Panamanian Air Force.
�• (0:14:20) Was part of the helicopter squadron that moved the Shah of Iran around
when he was in Panama. He also had to be put on alert and fly to a carrier when
the Sandistas took over Nicaragua.
• (0:19:00) Also did some work in Panama as a Rescue pilot. He won an award at
one point by doing some hazardous mountain flying to attempt to save a stranded
mountain climber.
• (0:20:58) From Panama, moved to Shepherd Air Force Base, Texas where he was
taught to fly fixed wing aircraft. He was qualified to fly fighter pilots, but did not
fly because of his age. He instead became an instructor at Reese Air Force Base
in Lubbock, Texas.
• (0:24:50) Left Lubbock in 1984 to go to Scott Air Force Base, IL and did desk
work. While he was there he got his Masters Degree in International Relations.
Worked in the Air Rescue Coordination office.
• Any search that the FAA took to the federal level, their office would get involved
and coordinate the rescue efforts.
• (0:29:30) They were responsible for the search and rescue efforts for the Space
Shuttle Challenger crash.
• (0:34:05) From there, went to Hurlburt Field, Florida in 1987, which was the base
for the Special Operations forces of the Air Force, where he worked as the flight
examiner. He was sent to many different bases around the world.
• (0:37:02) Was promoted to the position of Flight Operations Officer in Naval Air
Station Keflavik, Iceland in 1989.
• They did many different things, including more rescue operations, while in
Iceland.
• (0:43:05) In 1992, was transferred to the Pentagon in Washington, DC in a
program called Reserve Operations. He worked budgeting programs and
defending these programs in hearings.
• (0:44:40) Got promoted out of the Pentagon position in 1994 and was moved to
Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico with the 58th Special
Operations Wing. They trained these men, and their main goal was to create
crews for aircraft. Got to be group commander while he was there.
• (0:53:25) Transferred from there to Charleston Air Force Base, South Carolina in
1997. He ran the C-141 Special Operations Program. He was very tightly
connected to the base because the importance of their planes to operations.
Therefore, he was always on alert.
• (0:54:45) Was moved to McCord Air Force Base, Washington in 1999 to be Vice
Wing Commander of the C-71 battalion. Worked in the logistical transition from
the C-141 to the C-17.
• (0:56:40) Was at the base on September 11, 2001. Remembers shutting down the
base and moved to DEFCON 3.
• Flew into Afghanistan during the war. Flew from McCord, Washington to Europe
in the C-141 and then a C-17 the rest of the way to Afghanistan. Landed in
Kandahar and worked dropping Meal Ready to Eat packs to the civilians in
Afghanistan.
�• (0:58:40) Also worked in Bosnia during his time at Charleston AFB. He was the
437th Air Expeditionary Force Commander during a month and a half of this
operation. He would both bring food and military hardware during this time.
• He retired in 2002 after 30 years in the Air Force as a Colonel
Post Service (1:08:50)
•
When he retired from the Air Force, he moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan and
worked in the Avionics industry. After that, he started working for
militaryavenue.com, which was started by his children. This site helps military
families who move around a lot get acclimated to their surroundings.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
KissingerD
Title
A name given to the resource
Kissinger, Dale (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kissinger, Dale
Description
An account of the resource
Dale Kissinger was born in Gary, IN in 1948 and served in the Air Force between 1972 and 2002. He decided to join the Air Force upon completion of high school and attended training to become a helicopter pilot, and later trained in fixed wing aircraft as well. He worked in Nevada, Panama, Texas, South Carolina, New Mexico, Iceland, Bosnia and Afghanistan. He did a number of different jobs, including pilot, flight instructor, and management. He retired from the Air Force in 2002, and works for a website which helps military families during their transitions from base to base.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.)
WKTV
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Air Force
Afghan War, 2001---Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-05-22
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ecae43eab3405843dafa7ff7069708e7.m4v
2492e61fdb717bb64225f1f9309df4b6
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Herb Kitchens
Cold War (Post-Vietnam War)
12 minutes 29 seconds
*Note: Times on the outline correspond with the interview’s timecode
(02:48:40) Early Life
-Born on October 24, 1940, in Bauxite, Arkansas
-Grew up in Arkansas
-Attended college in Arkansas and served a pastor in Arkansas for 12 years before enlisting
-Attended the Missionary Baptist Seminary in Little Rock, Arkansas
-Became a pastor part of the American Baptist Association
-Got a lot of experience as a pastor before joining the Army
(02:50:22) Enlisting in the Army
-He was attending graduate school and a friend planned on becoming a Navy chaplain
-Herb talked with his friend about the chaplaincy and some of the benefits
-Wanted to work with soldiers, and felt he had a patriotic duty to fulfill
-He was in seminary during the Vietnam War, so he couldn’t serve
-First considered joining the Air Force, because Little Rock Air Force Base was nearby
-Turned down because the Air Force had already met its quota of chaplains
-Navy didn’t appeal to him because he couldn’t swim
-Decided to join the Army in 1974
(02:52:10) Basic Chaplain’s Course & Stationed at Fort Hood
-Attended the basic chaplain’s course at Fort Wadsworth, New York (after being at Fort Hood)
-Took nine weeks to complete that course
-Went on active duty after having a medical complication dealt with
-Sent to Fort Hood, Texas, without a uniform and before he took the basic chaplain’s course
-Signed into Fort Hood in October 1974, didn’t go to the course until January 1975
-Not unusual for chaplains to do that at the time
-Spent his first three years in the Army at Fort Hood (aside from training)
-Assistant chaplain in the division artillery of the 2nd Armored Division
(02:54:56) Stationed in West Germany
-Sent to West Germany in 1977
-Part of the 12th Engineer Battalion (attached to the 8th Infantry Division) on the Rhine River
-Tour in Germany lasted three years
-He loved his time in Germany
-Learned how to drive a bulldozer so he could help the engineers
-Inadvertently drove through a tank firing range, fortunately nothing happened
-Gave him and his family a chance to travel around Europe and see the famous cathedrals
-Part of a great unit
�-He was made the post chaplain at Anderson Barracks near Dexheim, Germany
-Worked with the German civilian clergy
(02:57:40) Advanced Chaplain’s Course
-Returned to the United States in the summer of 1980
-Went to the advanced chaplain’s course at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey
-Lasted from the summer of 1980 to around Christmas 1980
(02:59:03) Stationed at Fort Hood (Second Time)
-Sent back to Fort Hood, Texas, and was assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division
-Made the 2nd Brigade chaplain
-Did that for three years
-First time being a supervisory chaplain
-Good learning experience
-Formed long-lasting friendships at Fort Hood during his second time there
(03:00:22) Chaplain’s School
-Received orders to go to the Chaplain’s School to serve with the staff and faculty
-Had to get a master’s degree in education to be able to work at the Chaplain’s School
-Choice of studying near Fort Hood, or near Fort Monmouth
<Tape ends before the interview is completed>
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_KitchensH2063V
Title
A name given to the resource
Kitchens, Herbert E (Interview outline and video), 2016
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-27
Description
An account of the resource
Herb Kitchens was born on October 24, 1940, in Bauxite, Arkansas. Prior to joining the Army, he attended the Missionary Baptist Seminary in Little Rock, Arkansas, and served as a pastor for 12 years. He joined the Army as a chaplain in 1974. He was assigned to Fort Hood, Texas, in October 1974, but didn't take his basic chaplain's course at Fort Wadsworth, New York, until January 1975. He spent his first three years in the Army at Fort Hood and served as an assistant chaplain in the division artillery of the 2nd Armored Division. He was sent to West Germany in 1977 and was assigned to the 12th Engineer Battalion at Anderson Barracks near Dexheim, Germany. He returned to the United States in the summer of 1980 and took the advanced chaplain's course at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. He returned to Fort Hood and served as the brigade chaplain of 2nd Brigade of the 1st Cavalry Division for three years. After Fort Hood, he received orders to go to the Chaplain's School and serve as part of the staff and faculty.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kitchens, Herbert Earl
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Keizer, Herman Jr. (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988--Personal narratives, American
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9540fd7beca4a63a0f8029ab74387c93.jpg
b955d0f1ab2b28c6d19a87ed21f52381
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023
Description
An account of the resource
Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183).
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023.
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1960-2011
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Photographs
Photography -- United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-183
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Image
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-183_K141-0024
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gilbert, Douglas R.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1970-05-18
Title
A name given to the resource
Kittens in Kane County, Illinois
Description
An account of the resource
Black and white photograph of two kittens playing together indoors while lying on a sunlit wooden floor in Kane County, Illinois. Scanned from the negative.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Kittens
Kane County (Ill.)
Black-and-white photography
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1970s
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/82c0659dc850a3ab34a429066da42439.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Incunabula
Description
An account of the resource
The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1450/1500
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Incunabula Collection (DC-03)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Incunabula
Printing 1450-1500
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
it
la
nl
de
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Klagen, Antworten und Urteile, gezogen aus geistlichen und weltlichen Rechten [folium 68]
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-03_068Klagen1500
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Klagen
Description
An account of the resource
One leaf from Klagen, Antworten und Urteile, gezogen aus geistlichen und weltlichen Rechten by Klagen. Printed in Augsburg by Johann Schönsperger in 1500. [GW M16329; ISTC ik00026000]
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Augsburg: Johann Schönsperger
Subject
The topic of the resource
Incunabula
Printing 1450-1500
Language
A language of the resource
de
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1500
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Seidman Rare Books Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eada55c0165e29ba6e22b432193ff6ff.mp4
82b8929a1ed247d1aedf5babd7b6f6ec
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/565e6b629ab2d44656baa7b568048b2d.pdf
f39c38a4ad9e84a06643793a0fa8028c
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Ben Kleiman
(46:55)
Background Information (00:35)
Born on July 17th 1918 in East Grand Rapids, Michigan. (00:38)
His family ran a clothing store in Grand Rapids, Michigan (00:45)
Both of Ben’s parents were born in Russia. (1:06)
He grew up and attended school in Grand Rapids. (2:00)
Due to poor economic climate, Ben’s family was forced to sell their house and move to another
part of Grand Rapids. (3:00)
He graduated from high school in 1936.(3:20)
In 1937 Ben attended junior college. (3:40)
Due to lack of money, Ben did not stay in college. (3:50)
On Ben’s first attempt to enlist in the army after Pearl Harbor, he was turned down, so he went
ahead and got married. (4:10)
He was then drafted in 1943 and listed as qualified for limited service. (4:22)
He was unable to register for the draft prior to 1943 due to poor eye sight. (4:49)
From 1940-1943 before being drafted, Ben worked as a shoe salesman. (5:05)
Ben was visiting friends when he heard the news of the Pearl Harbor attack. (6:06)
Before this, he had been paying attention to what was going on in the world. (6:35)
After receiving his draft notice, Ben was sent to Battle Creek, Michigan, where he received
interviews and was inducted into the U.S. Army. (7:05)
Basic Training (7:25)
He took basic training at Camp McCoy in Wisconsin (7:30)
Basic was short, lasting only 6 weeks. (7:47)
Service at Camp Reynolds (7:50)
After Basic training he was sent to Camp Reynolds in Pennsylvania and was assigned to work in
an office where the soldiers were processed to be sent overseas. (7:50)
Ben received an office job due to his ability to type and his experience with dealing with paper
work. (8:25)]
Basic training was mostly physical work. (9:12)
Ben was older (at age 25 than) the other soldiers. (9:50)
Camp Reynolds was close to several small towns. (10:20)
Camp Reynolds was a replacement depot. Often soldiers had gone AWOL from this camp.
(10:57)
70-80% of the soldiers that went AWOL from Ben’s camp were found. (12:00)
Because he was married, Ben was allowed to live off base with his wife. He worked an 8-4:30
day 5 days a week. (12:35)
�
Television, movies, and radio were available at Fort Reynolds for the soldiers' entertainment.
(13:30)
Every person in Ben’s office had a specific job. The office was well supplied. (14:59)
Ben’s commanding officer kept a “tight ship.” (16:00)
Service in Alaska (17:00)
The men were interviewed to replace typists at another location. The men were not told were
they would be sent. (17:10)
The men were not aware of where they were traveling until they arrived at a camp in
Vancouver, Canada. (18:09)
The men were moved to Alaska in the fall of 1944. (18:45)
The men were sent to Alaska via a cruise ship. There were civilians on the ship. (19:15)
He was sent to Camp Richardson near Anchorage, Alaska. (20:27)
When he arrived Ben was placed in G1 (personnel) and made head of the Awards and Casualties
department. He reported suicides and fatal accidents that occurred overseas. (20:33)
Men were required to make, at times, 17 copies of documents to be sent to filing cabinets,
Washington D.C. and newspapers. (22:27)
Aside from awards and casualties, Ben was passed for top secret and worked on were particular
soldiers were placed. (23:56)
The headquarters in Alaska was not connected to forces in the Aleutian islands. (25:10)
Ben and other office workers assigned soldiers to particular maintenance position around the
base such as cooks. (25:45)
Life at Camp Richardson (26:00)
His wife did not move with Ben to Alaska. (26:20)
Ben lived in a barracks. (27:00)
For entertainment, the men would commonly go skiing or go swimming in a lake. (29:09)
There were enclosed walk ways at the camp. (30:06)
There was a lot of snow at the camp but not so much that the men were unable to walk. (30:34)
The men were required to work night duty. This meant that one office worker would have to
sleep in the office one night to guard the paperwork. (32:54)
There were a number of suicides at the base (perhaps due to weather conditions). (34:30)
Ben thought himself very lucky for receiving overseas pay without being in a war zone. (35:44)
The officers were “demanding and understanding.”(36:22)
End of Service (37:40)
Ben was discharged earlier than his points dictated due to an invitation to his brother's wedding.
(37:52)
While Ben was in Alaska his wife worked for a retailer in Grand Rapids. (39:27)
He was discharged in February of 1946. (39:55)
Ben was given enough money to fly home to Michigan. However due to his inability to get a
flight, Ben needed to take a train part way to Chicago. (40:00)
�
Ben was offered a job by the shoe retailer that he originally worked for. He was soon transferred
to Detroit, Michigan, and offered the chance to manage a store in Kentucky. He turned the offer
down. (41:03)
He operated an Army and Navy Surplus store until 1952. (42:00)
He became an auctioneer after several business attempts from 1964-2011. (43:02)
His career as an auctioneer involved a lot of document keeping. (44:09)
Effects of Service (44:34)
Being drafted makes Ben feel that he had done his part. (44:50)
He doesn’t think he learned anything in the service that he didn’t already know. (45:50)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
KleimanB1252V
Title
A name given to the resource
Kleiman, Benjamin (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kleiman, Benjamin
Description
An account of the resource
Ben Kleiman was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1918. He tried to enlist in the Army after Pearl Harbor, but was rejected due to poor eyesight. He was eventually drafted in 1943 and put on limited duty. He worked as a clerk at Camp Reynolds, Pennsylvania, keeping track of soldiers who had gone AWOL, and was eventually reassigned to Camp Richardson, Alaska, outside of Anchorage, where he worked as a personnel clerk until discharged in 1946.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dbd65a6ea740300e489dbac9ffe89166.mp4
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PDF Text
Text
Morris Kleiman (2:12:51)
(00:05) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Morris was born in Grand Rapids and he grew up there as well
His grandfather had moved to Boston before World War One
His family opened up their own cleaning and pressing business
His grandfather had previously been a miller, working with farmers
They eventually moved to Grand Rapids, MI, where his father met his mother
Morris’ parents got married right before World War One
Morris graduated in 1941 from South High School
He had been in the ROTC from 10th-12th grade where he was an officer
His family was Jewish, but he did not have a clear picture of what was going on in
Germany until after the war
(08:35) News of Events in Europe
•
•
•
•
Morris kept a scrapbook while in high school and closely followed the beginning of the
war
He used to collect foreign stamps and knew a lot about other foreign countries; he was
also interested in politics
Morris thought that he would eventually be drafted, but he attempted to get through as
much college as possible before that happened
He went to Grand Rapids Junior College for one year and to the University of Michigan
for a few semesters after that
(13:05) Training
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Morris was first sent to Fort Custer, in Battle Creek, MI
The men had to take written exams to determine where they would be placed
The exams were very simple for Morris and he got a high score, so more was expected of
him
Morris was sent to Minnesota where he stayed for three weeks
He was then sent to Atlantic City because he had a broken nose, so he was put on limited
service in a wait station
He went to Mississippi for special training school to be a supply clerk
Then to Louisiana to an Air Base to work with another supply group
His job was to check air planes to make sure that they were properly supplied to travel
overseas
(16:40) Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP)
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Morris started the ASTP in June of 1944, where there were many other college-educated
men
They trained here in Texas for three months
The Army had been in need of infantry men and took the whole ASTP engineering
program to fill the positions
Morris then began infantry training, but none of the others liked him and the men from
the engineering program because they were the “smart college boys”
Looking back, Morris is now glad that he got the infantry experience
They received little training and were sent overseas in September
While in the South, Morris did not feel that he got to experience any real Southern culture
because he had been alienated inside the training camp
He also felt that the Germans had better training and weapons than the Americans
(28:00) Barracks in England
•
•
•
Morris remembered a small brick barracks that only held three squads
While they were staying there, their lieutenant had told them to get ready because they
would be meeting their enemy in 24 hours
After that, everyone was scared and wrote what they thought was their final letters to
their family
(31:15) The Trip Overseas
•
•
•
During the trip Morris was sick most of the time, but helped with paperwork when he
was feeling better
They only had a few U-Boat scares, in which they went into “quiet time”
They traveled in a large convoy, leaving in September of 1944 and it took them 2 weeks
to reach their destination
(33:20) England
•
•
•
•
•
•
They based near Portsmouth, which was very foggy, but had a beautiful country side
The local people here were very friendly
They marched everyday on the country roads
Morris and others had to watch World War One movies to help train, but they did not
help because they portrayed lots of hand-to-hand combat; whereas the Germans he fought
were always at least 200 yards away
They eventually met with some infantry landing craft boats on the beach
Then the men were loaded up on trucks and sent to Belgium
(38:20) Belgium
• Morris and others moved to the front lines to take over
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
The men were all spread out and dug fox holes
It was very cold and there was barbed wire fencing and tanks all around
The Germans were better off because they were staying in bunkers
Many of his superiors had little or no experience and they were only in their early thirties
Morris was in the front line from October through December, until the Battle of the Bulge
It snowed every day for 5 weeks and they were only given one hot meal per week
Morris’ squad had 12 men, the company platoon had 40; there were 3 platoons and 1
platoon per barrack
The men were spread out over a stretch of three miles, but in other areas they were
stretched out over eight miles
(46:30) Reconnaissance
• Morris went out on reconnaissance missions once a week at night time
• They had to cut through barb wire fences and get very close to German forces
• Morris set up automatic rifles and helped to cover who ever might be in front of him
• The Germans were less spread out and not so much in the open field
• The Germans would freely light cigarettes at night because they were not worried about
the Americans seeing them
(51:15) Retreat
• The men had been told that they had to get out of the line quickly
• It ended up a big mess and no one knew what was going on
• They found themselves in an open field with lots of tanks burning and carnage
• Many just slept there in the field because they were too tired to go on any further
• Morris woke up every morning to artillery fire
(54:40) The Hospital
• Morris was sick in the hospital when he heard the news that someone had tried to kill
Eisenhower
• Many of the men around Morris were very sad during Christmas time
• Morris was sent to a different hospital in France that was very nice
• He was then put in the Paris Grand Hotel, but he had been too sick to enjoy it
• They crossed the channel to another hospital in England
(58:00) The States
• Morris was never completely healthy again until he had got home and been married for a
while
• He went back to Fort Custer and was married in less than a year
• His wife had done office work at Fort Custer
�•
•
•
•
•
•
Morris did not enjoy the military and could not like to get back to civilian life
The Army made him appreciate everything else and be more positive; it was a necessary
evil for him
Morris had been receiving unemployment checks and wanted to go back to school
He went back to the University of Michigan from 1946-47 and got his BBA, majoring in
accounting
He eventually took over his family business where he worked for 25 years, and then sold
the company
He has spent the rest of his life in Grand Rapids, MI working with the Jewish community
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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KleimanM
Title
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Kleiman, Morris (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
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Kleiman, Morris
Description
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Morris Kleiman was drafted into the Army for WW II and started his training at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan. He had closely followed the events in Europe prior to being drafted and was also attending college at the University of Michigan. Morris had fought on the front lines against the Germans in Belgium and had done some reconnaissance work. He eventually got very sick and was sent back to the United States. After his time in the service, Morris finished his degree in accounting and took over his family business.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2007-11-29
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Insel-Bücherei Series
Description
An account of the resource
The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries.
Coverage
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1904-1987
Source
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Seidman Rare Books Collection
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Book covers
Covers (Illustration)
Graphic arts
Publishers and publishing
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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DC-05
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image/jpg
Type
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Image
Language
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ger
Date
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2017-09-29
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
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DC-05_IB0618a
Title
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Klein Zaches, gennannt Zinnober: ein Märchen
Subject
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Book covers
Covers (Illustration)
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Publishers and publishing
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Image
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image/jpeg
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1978
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2017-09-29
Description
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Cover of Klein Zaches, gennannt Zinnober: ein Märchen, by E.T. A. Hoffmann, published by Insel-Verlag, 1978. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 618
Source
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Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.618
Language
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de
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/273443518dc3469a00a91b934e866022.jpg
e8170a1b9eb7baf459e608aef13b6a67
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3dc68d23f7298462a918e368bdbff74a.jpg
ae2f755545a38db950d22f728e9b0b09
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Insel-Bücherei Series
Description
An account of the resource
The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries.
Coverage
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1904-1987
Source
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Seidman Rare Books Collection
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Book covers
Covers (Illustration)
Graphic arts
Publishers and publishing
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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DC-05
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image/jpg
Type
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Image
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ger
Date
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2017-09-29
Still Image
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Dublin Core
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DC-05_IB0408
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Kleine Chronik: vier Erzählungen
Subject
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Book covers
Covers (Illustration)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Image
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image/jpeg
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2017-09-29
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Cover of Kleine Chronik: vier Erzählungen, by Stefan Zweig, published by Insel-Verlag. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 408
Source
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Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.408
Language
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de
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3fda278e6f0254fa41b42c37908ee67f.m4v
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Barry Kleinjans
Cold War & Peacetime (1960-1997)
1 hour 2 minutes 55 seconds
(00:00:38) Early Life
-Born in Holland, Michigan in October 1942
-Grew up in Zeeland, Michigan
-Father was a Seabee in the Navy during World War II
-Wasn't present during the first four years of Barry's life
-Father became a general contractor after the war
-Built hospitals, schools, and houses
-Graduated from high school in 1960
(00:01:46) Enlisting in the Navy
-Enlisted in the Navy after graduating from high school
-Influenced by his father's service in the Navy and the TV show Victory at Sea
(00:02:07) Basic Training
-Sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training two weeks after graduating
-Subjected to the process of depersonalization
-Breaking down the individual and building up the unit
-Taught that you are a piece of government property
-Went on marches
-Took classes
-Learned how the Navy worked
-Learned about Navy protocols
-Learned how to wash their uniforms by hand
-High emphasis on discipline and following orders
-Taught the history of the Navy
-From the Revolutionary War to the Second World War
-WWII and Korea were considered too new to be considered history
-Met men from all over the country
-Some were so poor that the first shoes they ever got were from the Navy
-Some intelligent, college-educated men
-Some black men
-Adjusted well to the Navy
-Understood that he was totally accountable for his actions
-Received gas mask training
-Shown how to put one on
-Went into a room with a gas mask on, then the room was filled with tear gas
-Had to take off their gas masks to get a sense of what a gas attack was
like
-Basic training lasted between six and nine weeks
(00:07:32) Sonar School
-Given two weeks of leave after basic training
�-Sent to a basic school for sonar training in Key West, Florida in September 1960
-Arrived in Key West just in time for Hurricane Donna
-There was a brand new school and new barracks
-Used those to house civilians that were at risk for flooding
-Patrolled the buildings looking for lost children
-Hurricane destroyed the fresh water pipes in Key West
-Had to go up the Keys to repair the pipes
-The USS Bushnell helped with making the new fresh water pipes
-He was placed on guard on a bridge into Key West
-First encounter with the Red Cross and it was a negative one
-Offered him coffee and cigarettes, but they were for sale
not free
-Supposed to be free for military personnel
-Spent almost a year training in Key West
-Learned about electricity, electronics, and sonar equipment
-Training concluded with doing sonar training aboard a destroyer and "hunting"
U.S. subs
-Equipment was still pretty basic
-Essentially the same technology from WWII with slight improvements
(00:12:11) Duty Aboard the USS Thomas J Gary (DE-326)
-Assigned to the USS Thomas J Gary (DE-326) out of Newport, Rhode Island
-Converted destroyer-escort from WWII
-Assigned to be a radar picket
-Part of the Distant Early Warning (DEW) Line
-Watching for Soviet bombers and submarines coming over the Arctic Circle
-Spent 30 to 45 days on station
-Then returned to port for 10 to 12 days to resupply and rest
-Spent their winters in the North Atlantic
-Spent their summers in the Caribbean Sea
-Worked as a school ship for Key West
-Did Liberty port calls throughout the islands
-Had a picket station off of the Grand Banks
-Had a picket station called GIUK (Greenland, Iceland, United Kingdom) above the
Arctic Circle
-Worked out of Scotland
-On that station for 30 to 45 days at a time
-Visited Germany, Denmark, and Sweden
-Treated well by the people in those countries
-First American ship that they had seen since WWII
-American dollar was strong, so the locals welcomed spending of the
dollar
-Remembers one major storm in the North Atlantic
-Water temperature was 28°F
-Had to remain on station
-Endured 40 foot waves for 10 days
-Lost material and the ship was heavily damaged as a result
�-Never lost confidence in the ship's ability to stay afloat
-Knew that as long as they kept water out of the ship they would be fine
-Paid attention to what the veteran sailors were doing
-Couldn't do much during the storm due to the weather
-Never heard much activity anyway
-As a sonar operator the ship would send out a "ping" to find any Soviet submarines
-The problem was those submarines could hear the "ping" and stayed away from
the area
-Stationed about that ship for two full years
-After leaving the USS Thomas J Gary he retired from active duty in 1963
(00:19:15) Cuban Missile Crisis
-They had just pulled in from serving around Northern Europe and he had leave
-He was hitchhiking back to Michigan when he heard about the Cuban Missile
Crisis
-A week after being home he was recalled for duty and the USS Thomas J Gary sailed to
Cuba
-Part of the blockade stopping the flow of military supplies to Cuba
-Attitude on the ship was optimistic
-Believed they would go to Cuba, fight if necessary, and win
-Tremendous amount of material and personnel in Key West
-Could see the missile bases in the hills of Cuba
-Tried to stop a Russian freighter, but to no avail
-Remembers sailing outside of Havana harbor
(00:21:45) Sinking of the USS Thresher
-In April 1963 the nuclear submarine USS Thresher sank off the coast of Cape Cod
-Sank in 8,400 feet of water
-USS Thomas J Gary was sent as part of the search
-Searched for about one month before being relieved
-Joined by a Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute ship to look for the submarine
-Had a plan to use depth charges to create a seismograph to find the sub
-He and one other sailor were tasked with preparing and launching three
charges
-Had to be tied to the ship and in three layers of clothing to do that
-Depth charges fall at a rate of 28 feet per second
-Set to detonate at 1,000 feet
-First detonated at 500 feet
-Second detonated at only 250 feet
-Close enough to the ship to knock out lights
-Third detonated at 1,000 feet
-Rewarded with medicinal brandy for going out to do that
(00:25:53) Extension of Service
-Had the opportunity to extend his service
-An Anti-submarine warfare officer from a sister ship offered a transfer to Barry
-Could sail around the world aboard the sister ship
-The catch was that he would have to extend for six months
-Decided against it
�-Had plans to go home, get a job, get married, and raise a
family
(00:26:58) Navy Recruiter & Vietnam War
-Began work as a Navy recruiter in early 1964
-The draft was in effect and so many men tried to join the Navy he had a waiting list
-By 1966 he had a three year waiting list of men trying to get into the Navy
-As early as 1963 knew that there was American activity in Vietnam
-Broke his ankle and had to be in the hospital at Newport, Rhode Island
-Saw men in the hospital recovering from wounds they sustained in
Vietnam
-Two years before ground troops were sent in
-Men in the Navy already knew that a war with Vietnam was on and going to get
worse
-Had a first come, first serve policy when it came to recruiting in the Navy
-People tried to buy their way into the Navy just to get out of the draft
-Only screening process they had was conducting physicals of recruits
-Took pretty much anyone and everyone
-Worked as a recruiter until 1967
-Admiral Zumwalt made some changes Barry didn't agree with and he decided to
get out
-Also had an executive, civilian job waiting for him once he got out
(00:30:16) Navy Reserves
-Stayed in the Navy Reserves, but stayed off active duty until 1980
-Did two weeks of training every year
-Mostly pointless because it was only two weeks out of a year
-Went to Key West for one training period
-Installed radar on two PT-Boats
-Both of them were used for torpedo recovery and fishing
-Noticed technology advancing during that time
-Moving away from vacuum tubes to solid state electronics
-Progress was slow though due to a lack of proper funding
(00:32:02) Returning to Active Duty
-Worked in construction in the late 1970s, but due to a slow economy went broke
-Had to move back in with his parents
-Decided to do a voluntary recall to active duty
-Got in when President Reagan was building the new 600 ship fleet
-Planned on staying in for only two years
-Got married during that time
-Got offered a lot of money to stay in
-Both factors contributed to him staying in the Navy
-He was able to go in as a Petty Officer, 2nd Class (E-5) so he didn't have to be retrained
(00:33:13) Assignment to USS O'Callahan (FF-1051)
-Sent to Philadelphia to receive his orders
-Wanted a ship and wanted a ship based on the West Coast
-Got assigned to a Garcia Class Fast Frigate based out of San Diego
-USS O'Callahan (FF-1051)
�-Older ship, but it still ran
-Got married and moved to San Diego and two weeks later was on a 10 and a half month
cruise
-Sailed to Hawaii, through the Aleutian Islands, and down through Japan
-Buzzed by Soviet Bear and Badger bombers in the Aleutian Islands
-Bombers locked missiles on them which was technically an act of war
-Fortunately, nothing came of it
-Sailed to Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, then to the Persian Gulf
-Did a radar picket in the Indian Ocean for 108 days
-Came back through Japan and picked up a battle group of 40 ships for WESTPAC
-Total radio silence
-Sailed up to Vladivostok then turned on their radios
-Vladivostok thought it was an American invasion of eastern Russia
-Soviets sent out bombers to intercept the battle group
-After WESTPAC they sailed back to the U.S. and it took a month and a half to get back
-Refueled every two days
-Done to avoid ships running out of fuel like in WWII
-Stayed in port for six months then went out for another WESTPAC exercise
(00:38:46) Stationed in San Diego
-Went out for the other WESTPAC exercise then left the ship in the Philippines
-Received orders to go back to San Diego for school
-Flew out of Clark Air Base in the Philippines
-At an advanced sonar school in San Diego
-Learned about new sonar equipment
-More computers
-Primitive by today's standards, but sophisticated at the time time
-Course was so new the Navy hadn't created proper diplomas yet
-Got temporary certificates that said, "You done good" (as a little
joke)
-Went to school from 9 AM to 5 PM, but also had some duties
-Wife liked that better
(00:41:07) Assignment to Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigate (1)
-Transferred from San Diego to Bath, Maine to pick up a new ship
-Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate
-Note: Most likely the USS Carr (FFG-52)
-Good ship, but cheaply made
-On one occasion the superstrucure cracked down the length of the
ship
-Idea was that the ships could be easily broken down and salvaged
-Although they were cheap they were durable
-One ship was hit by a missile and another hit a mine
-Both survived
-Served aboard that ship in the 1980s
-Home port was Charleston
-Technically stationed there for two years, but only there for six months
-Went to the Mediterranean Sea for a cruise
�-First time being there
-Spent a lot of time in Italy, Spain, Gibraltar, and Haifa, Israel
-Didn't wear your uniform ashore
-Civilians could still tell that you were in the service
-Always went ashore with other sailors
-Made a hobby of buying canes in ports
-Enjoyed collecting them and they made for a good weapon
(00:45:56) Assignment to Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigate (2)
-Transferred to San Diego in 1988 or 1989 and taught advanced electronics there
-Received orders for another Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate based at Yokosuka, Japan
-Joined the ship in early 1991
-Sailed immediately for Subic Bay in the Philippines
-Arrived as soon as Mount Pinatubo erupted on June 15, 1991
-Spectacular explosion that shook the ship
-30 to 40 miles away from the volcano and the ship still shook
-Had to hose ash off the ship
-Four feet of ash fell on Subic Bay
-Hurricane followed shortly after the eruption making the ash like
concrete
-Caused buildings to collapse under the weight
-Dark as night at noon from the ash
-There was a huge build up of static electricity which caused St. Elmo's
Fire
-Personnel from Clark Air Base were evacuated to Subic Bay
-Helped bring the personnel to another base to be taken to Japan
-Stayed at Subic Bay for a while
-After that the Navy left the Philippines
-Filipinos basically wanted the Navy to leave
-Would have cost a fortune to rebuild Subic Bay and Clark Air Base
-Remembers the Navy's last day in the Philippines
-Said good bye to the Navy's favorite bar
-Removed all Navy equipment from Subic Bay including the cranes
(00:50:52) Presidents and Funding
-Had plenty of money at the end of the Cold War
-Through the Bush and Reagan administrations
-During the 1970s the Navy had poor funding
-Had to go to Radio Shack to buy electrical equipment
-Funding was cut again during the Clinton administration
-Remembers sitting in the Chief's Club in Yokosuka, Japan watching the '96
Election
-President Clinton won the election
-Next day three Master Chief Petty Officers resigned with 30 years of
experience
(00:52:58) Gulf War & Aircraft Carrier Service
-Based in Yokosuka during the Gulf War and did cruises to the Persian Gulf
-Completed his tour in Japan aboard an aircraft carrier
�-Hated being on an aircraft carrier
-Too impersonal, too loud, and it smelled
-His berthing (bed) was right under the flight deck
(00:55:37) End of Service
-Left the Navy in 1997
-Got transferred back to the U.S. for instructor duty
-Father died in 1996
-Navy was changing again
-Yelled at a recruit for being out of uniform
-Recruit handed over a "time out chit"
-Meant Barry had to stop yelling at him
-Barry ripped up the paper
-Next day got reprimanded for yelling at the recruit
-Tried to explain that recruits can't be sheltered
(00:57:42) Son's Navy Service
-His son got in trouble on the ship he was assigned to
-Had developed a minor drinking problem and was being given the drug, antabuse
-Caused a severe reaction if you even used alcohol-based shaving cream
-Barry researched it and found the drug is only for severe, chronic
alcoholics
-His son and five other sailors were being given the drug as
punishment
-According to naval law, that was drug abuse
-He challenged the executive officer about the
abuse
-Officer didn't appreciate that
-Ship's doctor learned about the abuse
-Confiscated the antabuse
-Barry saw it as a leadership responsibility to address abuse
(01:00:32) Life after Service & Reflections on Service
-Returned to contracting after leaving the Navy
-Better equipped to deal with people after the Navy
-Learned that to get something done you didn' talk about it, you did it
-Decided to get out of contracting during the Great Recession
-He was drawing Social Security and retirement money from the Navy
-Knew that younger men needed the business, so he retired
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_KleinjansB1739V
Title
A name given to the resource
Kleinjans, Barry (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-02
Description
An account of the resource
Barry Kleinjans was born in Holland, Michigan in October 1942. After graduating from high school in 1960 he enlisted in the Navy. He received basic training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois then received sonar training at Key West, Florida. While at Key West he also helped with recovery from the aftermath of Hurricane Donna. He served aboard the USS Thomas J Gary (DER 326) on the Distant Early Warning Line searching for Soviet submarines and bombers, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the search for the USS Thresher. He left active duty in 1963 and worked as a Navy recruiter in the Navy Reserves until he returned to active duty in 1980. He served aboard the USS O'Callahn (FF 1051), received advanced sonar training in San Diego, and served aboard two Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates and helped with the evacuation of personnel when Mount Pinatubo erupted in 1991. He worked as an instructor in the U.S. until he retired in 1997.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kleinjans, Barry
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f7e6a09460306f0857d8914dd4d4801.mp4
f62af69128f319771fbae86365874c06
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b056235a30093d3939a0ea142923815.pdf
e0f20ee03f8e8a02642e3c2f141d1746
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Thaddeus Kling
(43:17)
(00:01) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
Ted worked at Brunswick in Muskegon, MI before the war
He finished the 8th grade and then went to work on a farm
Ted plowed for 30 cents an hour on a dairy farm
They didn’t hear much news so he didn’t know what was going on overseas
He heard about Pearl Harbor from a newspaper when he went into town
(06:22) Training
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Ted was drafted in Muskegon and sent to Fort Custer, MI
After basic training he was sent to Fort Sill, OK
They sent him there because he had a high IQ
He taught people how to drive and work on cars
When he was in basic training he thought it was fun and was used to a lot of exercise
After a year he was promoted up to a first class sergeant
He helped run C Battery [308th Field Artillery, attached to the 78th Division]
(14:04) Deployment
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
They landed in Bournemouth, England
It took them 3 days to cross the English Channel because of the bombings and U-Boats
They landed in Le Havre, France towards the end of 1943 [1944]
Ted fought in the Hurtgen Forest, the Battle of the Bulge, and Remagen Bridge
Their first combat was in October 1943 [1944]
They were hit with friendly fire when they first got into Germany by the Air Corps
His unit fired 105mm and 155mm guns
The observers went ahead and then came back to direct the fire up to 6 miles away
Each gun had a leader and 5 helpers
They were never fired upon
Ted was at the Bulge for 3 months and couldn’t clean or change clothes
He went forward observing occasionally
After the Bulge they went to Remagen on the Rhine
They fired constantly for three days and nights
(33:44) War Ends
•
The war ended the day after they captured 5,000 soldiers
�•
•
They got ready to go to Japan through Russia, but the war ended
Ted was glad to get out of the Army
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
KlingT
Title
A name given to the resource
Kling, Thaddeus (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kling, Thaddeus
Description
An account of the resource
Thaddeus Kling grew up working on a farm in Muskegon, Michigan. He was drafted and trained in Oklahoma where he made first class sergeant and helped run the C Battery of the 308th Field Artillery. He fought at the Hurtgen Forest, the Battle of the Bulge, and at Remagen Bridge. At Remagen Bridge they fired constantly for 3 days and 3 nights. The day before the war was over they captured 5,000 Germans.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Montagna, Douglas (Interviewer)
Great Lakes Naval Memorial & Museum (Muskegon, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-06-30
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/017aef057036015a8b2787d4cb382766.m4v
55dda55bba157bcc4cab33b5607b0c8b
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a59f921b0f416a6fc41ee05b67c4840f.pdf
a2fc6be29f40011a22244e339c2551fc
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Ryan Klingeman
Iraq War
59 minutes 58 seconds
(00:00:10) Early Life
-Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on November 2, 1981
-When he was three years old his family moved to Allendale, Michigan
-Grew up there and attended Allendale High School
-Father worked for Steelcase
-Mother drove a school bus for Allendale public schools
-Graduated from high school in 2000
-Attended Grand Valley State University on a scholarship
-Attended for two years
(00:01:04) September 11th Attacks & Enlisting in the Marines
-After the September 11th attacks he decided to enlist in the Marines
-Remembers being at class when people started telling him to turn on the news
-Watched the events of that day unfold
-Less than a year after the attacks he decided to enlist in the Marines
-What was Saddam Hussein capable of doing if terrorists could do so much damage?
-Felt he should do his part to protect the country and stop enemies of the country
-Grandfathers had served in World War II, and great-grandfathers in earlier conflicts
-A lot of his friends had enlisted in the other branches, so he decided to join the Marines
-Different than his friends and saw it as more of a challenge
-Two weeks after enlisting he was considered ready for basic training
-Most recruits take months to prepare
-Being in good physical shape and having some college education sped up the process
-Did various physical tests and aptitude tests
-Went to Lansing, Michigan to take the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery
(00:03:54) Boot Camp
-Sent to Marine Corps Recruit Depot, San Diego, for boot camp
-When he landed at the airport he could see the obstacle course and facilities at the base
-Placed on a bus and told to keep his head down
-Arrived at night
-Drill instructor came on board, screaming orders to get off the bus and stand at attention
-Issued gear, had his head shaved, and went through processing
-Did paperwork for hours
-First experience with stress and sleep deprivation
-Assigned to a squad bay for three days
-Cleaning and waiting for more recruits to form a training platoon
-Boot camp started with Phase 1
-It was difficult
-Remembers the drill instructor saying something funny and he laughed
-Drill instructor shoved him onto a footlocker and he realized they could hit him
-Had no difficulty with the physical training
-Learned that all he to do was follow orders and do what the drill instructors said
-Recruits were punished as individuals, then punished as a group for mistakes
�-Teaching them that mistakes in combat would affect the entire unit
-Boot camp lasted 13 weeks, split into three four-week phases
-Phase 1: Basics of being a Marine, learning discipline, and receiving martial arts training
-Phase 2: Extensive bayonet training
-Phase 3: Go to Camp Pendleton for rifle training
-Had a half-hour on Sundays for relaxation
-At night, the recruits had to sleep with their rifles
-Told when to sleep and when to wake up
-Went through “the Crucible”
-Three days of marching with a full pack and three, meager meals a day
-Teaching you to endure the hunger, pain, and exhaustion of being in combat
-Had 110 recruits in his training platoon
-Some of those men washed out due to the stress of basic training
-Some of the recruits tried to escape
-Some men added to the platoon because they had been held back
-Graduated with fewer recruits than what they started with
-Did his basic training in the summer of 2003
-Post-invasion of Iraq
-Emphasis on preparing for war
(00:13:54) School of Infantry
-Got ten days of leave after graduating from boot camp
-Parents came out to California to see him graduate from boot camp
-Returned to Michigan for his leave
-Went to Camp Pendleton, California, for the School of Infantry
-Assigned to be a 03/11 Bravo (rifleman)
-It was very difficult
-Did a lot of classroom work
-Learned about different weapons
-Took land navigation courses
-Carried 200-pound backpacks
-Gained 20 pounds of muscle
-Went on escape & evasion courses
-Learning how to avoid being captured if stuck behind enemy lines
-Went through mock villages
-Similar to rural Iraqi and Afghan villages
-Did gas training
-Hit with CS gas (tear gas) and putting on gas masks
-Fears that terrorists or insurgents might use chemical weapons
-Learned about house-house searches
-Platoon sergeant training him had served in Afghanistan
-Gave good advice
-School of Infantry lasted two months
-He was eligible for Recon Training, but swimming didn’t appeal to him
(00:18:28) Stationed in Michigan
-He had joined the Marine Reserves
-Upon completion of training he joined the 1st Battalion, 24th Marines in Saginaw, Michigan
-More training and more classroom work
-Majority of battalion had been deployed to guard bases along the Kuwaiti border
-Spent most of his time exercising and cleaning the base
�-Learned about different forms of radio communication
-Given a housing allowance, but he stayed with a friend in Saginaw
-Stayed at Saginaw for three months, and after one month the battalion returned
-Sent to Poland for training with international forces
-Stormed beaches on the Baltic Sea in World War II-vintage amphibious vehicles
-Germans were disciplined
-Majority of Russian soldiers were conscripts and acted like it
-Woefully under-trained and didn’t want to be there
-Stayed there four or five weeks
-Stayed at an Air Force base
-First time out of the United States
-Experienced a lot of different people and different cultures
-After the training in Poland he returned to Saginaw
(00:23:18) Pre-Deployment Preparation
-He had planned on re-enrolling in college, but there was a deployment rumor
-The deployment didn’t happen
-He went full-time for the Reserves
-Went on field exercises and worked on the base
-In mid-2005 they received deployment orders
-Went on longer field exercises
-Went out to California in early 2006 for extensive training
-Did assault courses, had live-fire mortars and live-fire machine guns
-Trained at Camp Pendleton
-Went to 29 Palms for a large, combined forces exericse
-Did patrols in mock villages with other branches of the armed forces
-He looked forward to being deployed
-Older than a lot of the other Marines
-Being in 29 Palms exposed him to the desert environment
(00:27:10) Deployment
-Given a week of leave to say good bye to his family
-Father was proud, but mother was worried
-He had gotten married and was able to see the birth of his daughter
-Went back to 29 Palms for four or five more weeks of training
-It was beneficial
-Went through mock villages
-Had soldiers act as combatants and simulated rounds (similar to paintballs)
-Paid a lot of attention to the news coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan
-News shifted from being positive to being negative
-Reports of civilian deaths, war crimes, and the torture of prisoners
-Flew from the United States to Germany to Kuwait on a commercial airliner
-Stayed in Kuwait for two days
(00:30:42) Arrival in Iraq
-Flown up to Al-Taqaddum Air Base (TQ) in Iraq on a C-130
-Located in Al-Anbar Province
-Made a combat landing
-A spiraling descent toward the runway to avoid antiaircraft fire
-Spent a night there
-It was a large base with a Taco Bell and indoor plumbing
-Sent to Camp Baharia near the city of Fallujah
�-Took a convoy to the forward operating base (FOB) at an abandoned train station north of Fallujah
-Started the transition process to take over from the previous unit
-Shown the perimeter, shown weak points, and informed about the situation
-Attacks were getting progressively worse due to the Muslim holiday of Ramadan
-More attacks
-Insurgents attacked during transitions because units were vulnerable
-Upon arrival at the FOB they took mortar fire and a suicide car hit the base
-The suicide attack killed some Marines that were slated to go home
(00:33:49) Operating in Fallujah
-Getting to know the area and making contact with the civilians
-Went on patrols and went to houses to make sure the people had military-issued ID cards
-The civilians were friendly
-Learned that the overly friendly people were hiding something
-Within a few weeks they started encountering improvised-explosive devices (IEDs) and snipers
-Had a good intelligence group that gathered information for raids
-Made raids every other night to capture high value insurgents
-Worked closely with local officials, the Iraqi police, and the Iraqi Army
-Intelligence group worked with sheiks to get information about insurgent activity
-Most of the Iraqis hated the insurgents, but didn’t want to risk retaliation from them
-They wanted to give information to the Americans, but feared the insurgents
-Able to call home and rest at Camp Baharia
-Used abandoned buildings as outposts in the city
-Stayed there for three or four days with nine or ten men
-Watching routes with high IED activity and supply routes
-Went on combat patrols
-Mix of hunting for high value targets and looking for insurgents
-Didn’t get a lot of sleep during those patrols
-Did patrols in vehicles and on foot
-Kept it random so the insurgents couldn’t establish a pattern
-He preferred foot patrols
-Able to move faster and get out of situations easier
-Realized that a presence alone wouldn’t suffice
-The Iraqis wanted to see results from the presence
-Civilians could get compensated for damaged property
-Spent his nine-month tour in that area
(00:42:02) Enemy Presence in Fallujah
-At first, they were attacked quite a bit
-Once they started doing raids and engaging the insurgents the attacks decreased
-There were two types of raids: hard and soft
-Soft raid meant going in quietly (for example, going roof to roof to get into a house)
-A hard raid usually meant kicking down a door or blowing up a wall to get into a house
-During raids they had a fire team go up on a nearby roof to provide cover for the raid party
-Civilians liked what the Marines were doing
-Invited them in for tea and exuded hospitality
-Civilians hated the insurgents because of things like beheading prisoners and abusing children
-Started to notice large groups of civilians feeding information to the intelligence groups
(00:45:45) On Base & On Outpost
-The base was small, roughly the size of a football field
-Didn’t have much down time
�-Only had four hours a day to clean rifle, do laundry, and catch some sleep
-On outposts they slept in shifts
-On outposts the insurgents hit hard with RPGs and assaults
-Used the RPG as a distraction then hit the other side with small-arms fire
-The abandoned houses they used as outposts had belonged to wealthy Iraqis
-Had walls around property
-Sat up on the roof with thermal scopes
-Able to stop insurgents before they crossed the perimeter
(00:48:25) Casualties
-Most casualties came from IEDs and snipers
-Command kept them informed about the men wounded or killed
-Battalion numbered at about 900 to 1,000 Marines
-23 were killed during that tour
-90 to 120 were wounded during that tour
(00:49:32) Weapons
-He carried a Benelli shotgun during raids with a lock-busting round
-Carried an M-16 rifle with an M203 under-barrel grenade launcher for patrols
-Sometimes carried an M249 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon); a light machine gun
(00:50:26) IEDs, Snipers, & Protection
-Friend got wounded by an IED nine days after the battalion arrived
-Insurgents used three, 155mm artillery rounds bound together as an IED
-When they got stronger armor on vehicles, the insurgents made stronger bombs
-Used smokescreens to avoid snipers
-Used Humvees and 7-ton trucks as personnel carriers
-The trucks took IED blasts better than Humvees
(00:51:45) End of Tour & Coming Home
-He was still in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was executed on December 30, 2006
-The Iraqi people celebrated, but the insurgents used it as an opportunity to attack
-Left Iraq in April 2007
-Returned to the United States and got 30 days of leave
-Rapid transition from being in a combat zone to being in civilian society
-Strange to be sitting in his living room with his wife and nine-month old daughter
-Allowed to decompress for a few days in California before going home
(00:53:56) Training Exercise in Haiti
-Opportunity came up to train Haitian soldiers on raid tactics and drug enforcement
-Did urban assault exercises
-The Haitians were poorly-equipped, violent, and not friendly like the Europeans and Russians
-Stayed there for five weeks
(00:55:00) End of Service Pt. 1
-He found a civilian job and decided to become a member of the inactive Reserve for rest of enlistment
-Wife was against him reenlisting anyway
(00:55:26) Contact with Home
-He had access to a satellite phone to call home
-Didn’t like to call much because it upset his wife
-There were a few times when the base got attacked while he was on the phone
-Used email a few times
-Mostly wrote regular letters to stay in touch with his family
-Wrote a letter every day
�(00:56:37) Readjusting to Civilian Life & End of Service Pt. 2
-Being in crowds scared him for a while (Insurgents used crowds of civilians as human shield)
-Had his wife drive for a while after he came home (Insurgents hid IEDs on roadsides)
-Didn’t go out in public that much after he came home
-Worked as a supervisor for a distribution company until 2015
-Returned to Grand Valley State University on the GI Bill
-Studying to be a high school history teacher
-He is in his senior year at Grand Valley (as of the interview)
-Went on inactive reserve in 2009 and was discharged in 2011
(00:58:40) Reflections on Service
-Taught him leadership skills
-Instilled in him a strong work ethic
-Learned a lot and met a lot of different people
-Difficult to reconnect with friends that didn’t serve in the military
-Bonds with other friends that served in the other branches
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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KlingemanR1953V
Title
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Klingeman, Ryan A (Interview outline and video), 2016
Description
An account of the resource
Ryan Klingeman was born on November 2, 1981, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In 2002 he enlisted in the Marine Corps Reserve, and in summer 2003 he went to boot camp at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, San Diego, California. He volunteered to be a rifleman and went to the School of Infantry at Camp Pendleton, California. Upon completion of training he joined the 1st Battalion 24th Marines in Saginaw, Michigan and went to Poland for a multinational training exercise. In mid-2005 the unit received orders to deploy to Iraq. They trained at Camp Pendleton and 29 Palms before deploying to Iraq in 2006. Ryan and the rest of his unit was stationed at Camp Baharia near Fallujah, Iraq, and they operated out of a forward operating base north of the city. He spent his nine-month tour in Fallujah. He went on patrols, conducted raids to capture insurgents, and stood watch at outposts in the city. They left Iraq in April 2007 and returned to Michigan. He participated in a joint-training exercise with the Haitians before going inactive reserve in 2009, and in 2011 he was discharged from the Marines.
Creator
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Klingeman, Ryan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-23
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4593e58b2f72bd1e3974cf4be2fa132.mp4
958fe6de8b461da94c015b40877941ec
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb7956bc5e43cbd1837bad190fdabcee.pdf
8fd080dc3d2f0a20d30a6406a6b775fe
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Walter Kloc
World War II
Total Time: 1:02:15
Childhood and Early Enlistment (0:00:10)
Born in Cook County, Illinois but moved to Michigan when he was one.
He attended High School and attended Central Michigan College in 1936. He did
not graduate in 4 years as he was 2 credits short.
He worked in the summer of 1940, and after the summer he decided to sign up for
the Air Force {Army Air Corps], and he was called up in February 1941. He was
then told he would be called up once the airfields were ready.
(0:04:10) It was not until December 10, 1941, just after Pearl Harbor, that he was
called up into active duty.
Enlistment and Training (0:04:40)
He was sent to San Antonio, Texas where he attended basic training. This
consisted of, for the most part, basic physical training and learning military life, as
well as basic things about aircraft.
(0:05:50) He was then sent to an airfield in the Panhandle of Texas where he took
primary flight training. He was in a BT-19. During this training they were able to
wash out about 80% of the class. He was washed out of the pilots training. He was
given the choice of either bombardier or navigator, so he chose bombardier.
(07:40) He was then sent to San Antonio and then to Midland, Texas for
bombardier training. They used NT-11 planes and dropped practiced on the
Norden Bombsight. They also had a mechanism on the ground that allowed them
to practice on the sight.
Active Duty (0:11:20)
He received a commission in July 1942 and was sent to Columbia, South Carolina
where he was in charge of the training of a bombardier squadron. They completed
the runway in September, and he trained the men to skip bomb and bomb at high
altitudes. They were training the men in B-25s.
(0:13:40) In November 1943, he was shipped overseas to The Pacific Theatre,
where he flew a B-24. He shipped over in a plane to Guadalcanal where he joined
a pre-existing squadron. He was squadron bombardier for this mission, and he
trained the bombardiers on short bombing missions.
(0:16:19) After training the squadron, he participated in bombing runs over
various locations, including Bougainville. They then moved to Green Island and
flew bombing missions from there.
(0:17:20) They ran into anti-aircraft fire and some fighters, but they had their own
fighter escorts to take care of this.
�
(0:18:25) They targeted storage facilities and ships docked in harbors. They
would also attack ships that were caught in the open.
(0:19:50) They also worked bombing New Guinea. He was then sent to Hollandia,
where he set up the base for a month. They flew bombing missions to Ceram and
Western New Guinea.
(0:22:10) His squadron was then transferred to Sanapur, Western New Guinea,
where they made bombing runs to Borneo.
(0:22:35) They were then transferred to another based, where they continued
bombing.
(0:23:00) After this, they moved along to Puerta Princesa in the Philippines,
where they flew missions to Indochina. Here, he flew a total of 52 missions before
he was sent back to the US in May 1945.
(0:24:05) He got his separation papers in July 1945 and then joined the reserves.
(0:24:34) His duties as lead bombardier (which were about half of his missions)
included flying in the lead plane and directing bombing. During the missions
where he was not the lead bombardier, he flew in the wing and let someone else
do these duties.
(0:25:02) They had 12 planes in their squadron, and would generally fly with
other squadrons during bombing runs. The number of squadrons and where they
went depended on the target. For instance, they would bomb runways with four
squadrons.
(0:27:40) They sometimes flew low altitude missions, where they would strafe
and firebomb. These missions were the most dangerous, and they lost several
aircraft on these missions. Their plane was hit on one of these missions, but the
pilot was able to salvage the engine that got hit and they made it back to base.
(0:31:45) Another time, his plane was hit while on a bombing mission by
antiaircraft fire. They had many holes in the fuselage, one of the cables to the
rudder was severed, and the tail gunner was hit in the hand. They found out that
intelligence had missed some antiaircraft positions, leading to their being hit.
(0:36:05) Their living conditions were usually ok. They lived in tents, and they
used mosquito nets to attempt to ward of malaria. They usually ate normal K
Rations, but when they got to Hollandia, they were allowed to fly to Australia to
pick up fresh food to eat. For meat they were usually given mutton.
(0:39:12) There were only a few issues with tropical disease in his unit. He got a
fungal infection in his toes.
(0:40:10) They got leave in Australia from time to time. He was able to go to
Sydney. Normally GIs were forced to stay in Sydney, but he befriended a girl
whose father was a government official, and this allowed him to leave Sydney.
(0:43:45) They were warned not to go off of the base because there were Japanese
in the area, and they were also warned that the local populations were at times
hostile.
(0:47:30) At one point, one of the men in the bunk next to his was killed in
combat.
(0:47:55) He stayed on longer than the normal allotted time.
�
(0:48:45) Their stay at Puerta Princesa was very nice, because they were in close
proximity to some very nice beaches.
Post-Service (0:49:45)
He worked as an engineer after the war in mechanical and electrical design.
Also worked for General Motors
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
KlocW
Title
A name given to the resource
Kloc, Walter (Interview outline and video), 2009
Description
An account of the resource
Walter Kloc served in the Air Force during World War II. He joined the Air Force prior to the attacks on Pearl Harbor, and was called up for active duty on December 10, 1941. He worked as a bombardier on a B-24 aircraft in the Pacific Theatre. Some of the locations of his bombing runs included Borneo, New Guinea, and Indochina. He flew 45 missions before he was sent home, and he worked as an engineer after the War.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kloc, Walter
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army Air Corps
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-19
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5aaee66ac7347e72ff90b9ce115fa8d7.mp4
c69431f02424aa8e86645eb6ca0d1cff
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1ba680797f32296c85ecd5ef1c510a3a.pdf
db560ea5fc38cb45ad94fd7e5e97f910
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
The Cold War
Ron Kloet
Interview Length: (01:59:46:00)
Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:18:00)
Kloet was born of Aug. 8th, 1936, on the west side of Grand Rapids, Michigan; as Kloet
grew up, his family moved around, from apartments to one house then another, two-story
house that was only two blocks away from their old house (00:00:18:00)
o Kloet attended Christian school for K-9th grade and took a single year of Christian
high school but did not like it because he did not know anyone and the high
school was so far away from his home that Kloet had to ride a city bus, which was
inconvenient, especially when the bus workers went on strike (00:00:58:00)
o Instead, Kloet convinced his parents to allow him to attend Union High School
and Kloet graduated from there in 1954 (00:01:20:00)
Up until the start of World War II, Kloet’s mother was a housewife and his father worked
as a photo engraver for a company, making plates for newspapers, a job that last for forty
years (00:01:37:00)
o However, while Kloet and siblings were in school, their mother got a part-time
job working at a grocery store; after the war, Kloet’s mother took a job working at
a brass company (00:02:06:00)
After graduating from high school, Kloet left home and enlisted in the Air Force in
January, 1955 (00:02:39:00)
o Kloet had been raised the old-fashioned way, that children were expected to leave
the nest, and when he graduated from high school, a lot of people suggested Kloet
go to college to get a practical degree (00:03:07:00)
Therefore, Kloet briefly attended Davenport University for a semester but
because he had to pay rent, Kloet needed income, so he took a job,
attending classes in the morning and working in the evening (00:03:30:00)
Kloet was also not happy with the school; not that he could not handle it,
he just did not like it (00:03:56:00)
o Kloet was restless and wanted to get away, so he decided to enlist and join the
service (00:04:01:00)
When he first enlisted, Kloet took entrance tests at the induction center
and scored high (00:04:08:00)
Kloet did not want to be drafted because friends of his who had graduated
from high school in 1954 were drafted and went to Korea [the armistice
had been signed in 1953, but the Americans maintained a strong presence
there] (00:04:18:00)
o Because Kloet scored high on the tests, the military chose to send Kloet to the Air
Force; when he enlisted, Kloet did not chose a specific branch to join but the
military chose to send him to the Air Force security services (00:04:41:00)
�
Kloet went for his basic training at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas and
that marked the first time Kloet had ever been to Texas (00:05:12:00)
o Kloet spent January through April at Lackland to complete the twelve-week basic
training course (00:05:26:00)
o The basic training was typical of the time: going to the rifle range, physical
training, a lot of marching, and some classroom work (00:05:38:00)
o It was not hard for Kloet to make the adjustment from a civilian lifestyle to a
military lifestyle; physically, it was a little more challenging because Kloet had
never been athletic, liking to read books instead (00:06:01:00)
o A beautiful part of basic training was the Kloet met a cross-section of American
society; before, Kloet had only known the Poles and Dutch living on the west side
of Grand Rapids and not much outside of that (00:06:18:00)
When Kloet had been going to grade school, his uncle who had served
during World War II lived with Kloet’s family both before and after his
service and he filled Kloet’s head with stories of his experiences while
serving in the Navy (00:06:52:00)
Kloet had other uncles who had served as well and they told their
stories to Kloet, so Kloet was always interested in life outside of
Grand Rapids (00:07:18:00)
During basic training, there were some African-American and Latino
recruits but a lot of the recruits were from the South, a demographic that
supplied a large amount of enlistees for the entire military (00:07:31:00)
When he first enlisted, Kloet went from Grand Rapids to Detroit,
where more the recruits were picked up and some of them were
African-American (00:07:50:00)
Kloet was not too knowledgeable about the race issue because he
had grown up in Grand Rapids and the issue really hit home when
the recruits were taking the train down to Texas (00:07:59:00)
o The train stopped at a small town in Texas where the
recruits were allowed to get off to get some food, as there
was none on the train (00:08:13:00)
o However, the African-Americans were barred from
entering a restaurant (00:08:24:00)
The majority of the drill instructors were from the South, but they
did not treat the African-American soldiers any differently and
yelled at everybody (00:08:45:00)
After the first twelve weeks, Kloet received orders for his training school at Kelly Air
Force Base, which was only a few miles away from Lackland (00:09:03:00)
o After the twelve weeks, Kloet received leave, so he bought a plane ticket and flew
back to Grand Rapids before returning to Kelly to go through what the Air Force
had termed as “technical school” (00:09:18:00)
Kelly attended the headquarters and training school for the Air Force
Security service (00:09:43:00)
o Kloet’s training at Kelly consisted of learning how to analyze traffic from
intercepted communications using codes, which was similar to doing crossword
puzzles (00:09:53:00)
�
Another big part of the training was pattern analysis and Kloet worked as
a signals analyst, working with collected material; his full job title was
“radio intercept traffic analyst” (00:10:22:00)
o Kloet’s training at Kelly lasted for another four months, from April through
August (00:10:49:00)
o During the training, Kloet was allowed to go off-base and into San Antonio, as
well as going once to Padre Island on the Gulf of Mexico with other airmen who
lived in the barracks with Kloet, if only to walk along the beach (00:11:02:00)
Kloet would go into San Antonio, which had a nice theater and several
nice restaurants, although it was hot in the summer (00:11:18:00)
San Antonio was somewhat unique because there had always been Air
Force bases there; there were more bases around San Antonio than any
other place in the country (00:11:34:00)
There was Brooks Air Force Base, Randolph Air Force Base, Kelly
Air Force Base, Lackland Air Force Base and one other one, plus
the Army had Fort Sam Houston (00:10:45:00)
There was a lot of military presence in San Antonio, which made
for a friendly atmosphere towards the military (00:12:03:00)
After completing the training at Kelly, Kloet was to ship overseas, so he was given a
thirty-day leave and he went home before reporting to Travis Air Force Base, which was
north of San Francisco (00:12:22:00)
o Eventually, Kloet and the others who were deploying were placed aboard a ship,
the Mitchell, and taken from San Francisco to Japan, a two-week voyage that
ended when the soldier arrived in Yokohama, Japan (00:12:53:00)
The Mitchell was a troop transport that was terrible, especially during any
rough weather; the ship would bounce all over the place during rough
weather and people would get sick (00:13:30:00)
The people onboard the Mitchell were a mix of servicemen who were all
being re-assigned (00:14:00:00)
o When he first deployed, Kloet did not know which specific unit he was supposed
to join, be it a group, wing, or squadron; Kloet knew where to go but not which
unit to go to (00:14:09:00)
Deployment (00:14:30:00)
Kloet’s first impression of Japan happened when the Mitchell was getting close to the
islands; as the ship got closer to the islands, the servicemen sniffed the air and asked what
the smell was (00:14:30:00)
o It was October and that was the time that the Japanese farmers put fertilizer on
their soil; however, the fertilizer the Japanese used was night soil, which roughly
translated as human excrement (00:14:50:00)
o The farmers would put the fertilizer on the soil and the heat from the sun would
make it so the people on the ship out at sea could smell the fertilizer before they
even reached land (00:15:21:00)
After the ship landed in Yokohama, Kloet was assigned to 6902nd Special
Communications Group, which was stationed at Shiroi Air Force Base, which was to the
northeast of Tokyo (00:15:38:00)
�
o At the time, there were several larger Air Force bases in Tokyo but Shiroi was
supposedly “off the radar” and nobody outside a select group was supposed to
know where it was (00:16:15:00)
o As Kloet rode to the base, he looked out the windows and watched the
countryside of Japan, which was pretty (00:16:38:00)
o All the units at Shiroi were intelligence; there was a wing and a group, while the
group had several smaller elements but they were all intelligence (00:16:49:00)
While at Shiroi, Kloet did his analyst work in a building with no windows or central air,
all to make sure that no signals could get out (00:17:09:00)
o The work consisted of analyzing the paperwork that Kloet receive and placing the
results on sheets that could be feed into an early computer (00:17:52:00)
Each analyst covered a specific area, Kloet covered the Soviet Union, and
after the information came out of the computer, Kloet went over the form
again to make any corrections that needed to be made (00:18:23:00)
The forms then went out by messenger to a higher headquarters but Kloet
did not know anything about that (00:18:46:00)
o Intelligence, and signals intelligence in particular, amounted to a 365-day-a-year
job (00:19:01:00)
One of the benefits of being in intelligence was that Kloet was working at
a job, not training; the only time Kloet participated in any extent to what
could be described as training, was when he was with the 3rd Infantry
Division in Germany between 1972 and 1973, although it was not a live
mission (00:19:14:00)
On all the other assignments, there was a live, 365-day-a-year,
24/7 mission and Kloet worked a part of that mission, which
helped keep his interest in the mission because he was doing
something (00:19:48:00)
Kloet had to keep track of whoever the bad guys were at the time,
be it the Soviets or the Chinese (00:20:13:00)
The analysts operated on a daily schedule, although nobody woke them up in the morning
and there were no formations; instead, the analysts had a normal work schedule where
they had to be working by seven-thirty in the morning (00:20:31:00)
o The personnel on the base lived in barracks, with two men to a room, although the
NCOs and officers had better rooms (00:20:44:00)
o After getting up, Kloet would go to the mess hall, eat, return to his room to clean
up then go to work (00:20:57:00)
o To get to where he worked, Kloet had to go through a guarded gate and anyone
who wanted to get through the gate needed a badge with their name and picture;
after the guard checked each person out, the person went through the gate, into the
building and to their office (00:21:15:00)
o The analysts needed to be to their jobs by eight o’clock and would be supervised
by a sergeant and an officer, in Kloet’s case, a 1st Lieutenant (00:21:32:00)
o A standard shift for the analysts was eight working hours plus a meal break
squeezed in at some point (00:21:59:00)
While Kloet was stationed at the base, he was able to leave and travel around Japan in
order to see the sights (00:22:13:00)
�
o The base had a bus that took personnel to a train station in the nearby town of
Goko, where the personnel road on a small train down to the town of Mazado;
from Mazado, the personnel took a train into Tokyo (00:22:16:00)
In total, it took roughly an hour to get from Goko into Tokyo; the trains
were nice, comfortable, and always on time (00:22:40:00)
o Downtown Tokyo at that time was still not the city Kloet saw when he went back
to Japan in 1986, and still had open sewers running through the town
(00:22:50:00)
Nevertheless, the main part of the city had some nice jewelry stores and
restaurants (00:23:16:00)
At the time, although there were no major conflicts in the world, things were still
happening, such as the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and troubles in the Middle East
(00:23:23:00)
o The Hungarian Revolution was a major event and it reached the point that the
personnel on the base thought they were going to go to war; the personnel had to
have their duffel bags ready because the thinking was that if it went, the personnel
would be shipped to Germany and operate there (00:23:40:00)
The Hungarian Revolution made Kloet’s job exciting because for a while,
the Hungarians were beating back the Russians (00:24:01:00)
The strategic problem was whether the President of the United States
would go to war but given the time period and the equipment available to
the Americans, who had disarmed after the end of World War II, Kloet
believes that the Russian could have run the Americans over just by sheer
numbers (00:24:23:00)
o Another crisis was when an American aircraft was shot down near the Russianheld Kurile Islands but again, nothing came of it; nevertheless, it kept the job
interesting for Kloet (00:25:54:00)
On one of his trips, Kloet received a three-day R&R and went to the small town of
Nikko, which was a Buddhist/Shinto temple complex; Kloet ended up taking numerous
photos of the temples, which were beautiful (00:25:14:00)
Kloet also liked the food that was available, including a Hungarian restaurant in Tokyo
run by a woman who had escaped from Hungary; it was at the restaurant that Kloet
received his first introduction to real Hungarian goulash (00:26:41:00)
o There were Japanese workers on the base doing a lot of support functions and
there was a kiosk built on the base for Japanese food; the food at the kiosk was
good and eventually, all the GIs were eating there, leaving nothing for the
Japanese workers (00:27:08:00)
o Although the GIs were eventually forbidden to eat at the kiosk, Kloet still went to
Japanese restaurants in Tokyo and at one restaurant, tried sukiyaki made from
Kobe beef, which, because the dollar was worth more than the yen at the time,
was not that big of a thing for the soldiers (00:27:37:00)
Kloet spent two years and two months in Japan, having extended his tour by two months
over the standard two years (00:28:21:00)
o If a soldier was unaccompanied, his deployment lasted two years and if a soldier
was accompanied [by family], the deployment was three years, although there
were not a lot of accompanied tours at the time (00:28:20:00)
�
o At the time, a person’s promotion depended on which command he was in; Kloet
was in the Security Command, where the promotions were terrible, although the
general tests score for the personnel in the command were much higher than
personnel in Strategic Air Command or Tactical Air Command (00:28:40:00)
Kloet scored extremely well in all the tests but the promotions still went to
either SAC and TAC (00:29:13:00)
Kloet chose to extend his deployment because it appeared that a
promotion would be coming for him with the next set of orders because he
had climbed through the chain of command (00:29:28:00)
However, about a month before Kloet was to receive his
promotion, a bunch of other personnel from came outside Security
Command who had more seniority than Kloet and he was pushed
back down the ladder (00:29:42:00)
o When he was pushed back down the ladder, Kloet decided that his deployment
was done after the two-month extension and he was done with the Air Force
because he saw no future in remaining (00:29:56:00)
In the same time period, Kloet had applied for Officer Training School but
was told he was too young and to apply the following year, which just
acted like frosting on the cake for why he should get out (00:30:04:00)
After Japan, Kloet returned to San Antonio but continued doing the same type of work, in
the same type of buildings, although the buildings were air-conditioned (00:30:24:00)
o Eventually, Kloet requested a drop from the Air Force so he could attend
Michigan State University; Kloet applied for an early out and was accepted by
Michigan State, so he got out in December 1958 (00:30:39:00)
Once he was out of the military, Kloet packed his car and drove continually until he was
out of Texas before stopping; Kloet returned home to drop his uniforms off before
heading to Michigan State, which was on the quarter system at the time (00:31:09:00)
o Kloet began at Michigan State as a “non-specific” student and did not have a
major but was interested in Russia because of the work he had done in the Air
Force; although he never learned the language, he knew some words and was
interested in Russian geography and culture (00:31:32:00)
Kloet started off taking Russian language and literature before signing up
for history courses and eventually declaring his major as Russian; Kloet
took Russian history, Russian political science, and Soviet economics, as
well as a German minor for his final two years (00:31:54:00)
o When Kloet finished his degree, he thought about immediately continuing on to a
Master’s Program and actually started the Master’s Program when he found out
his Russian was intellectual (00:33:09:00)
Kloet had spent four years memorizing words, structure, and knowing how
to put the right words in the right order yet when he started the Master’s
Program, it was about the phonology of the language, which Kloet had not
studied (00:33:20:00)
o Going into the Master’s Program was actually Kloet’s plan “B” because he had
applied for jobs, although the job pool for someone with a Russian degree and a
background in signal’s intelligence was small, so Kloet applied to the Central
Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency (00:33:54:00)
�
Kloet ended up with interviewing with the CIA at the University of
Michigan but he heard nothing from either the CIA or NSA after that and
because summer was coming, Kloet was getting anxious, so he applied for
the Master’s Program, which took him in (00:34:31:00)
Kloet did not even have to take an aptitude test for the Master’s Program
because he had just completed four years and although the literature aspect
of the program was fine, when they started discussing the phonology, he
was completely out of it (00:35:29:00)
The Central Intelligence Agency (00:36:01:00)
As he was going through grad school, Kloet was hating it but all of a sudden, he received
a call from the CIA, who wanted Kloet to come down for an interview because they
wanted to hire him (00:36:01:00)
o By this time, things were getting financially tight for Kloet because he was paying
for the graduate school and although he had had a small GI bill, it did not count
towards anything (00:36:36:00)
Kloet agreed to the CIA’s offer and the CIA said they were going to send
tickets to him via priority mail (00:36:50:00)
o Kloet received the CIA offer on Monday and by Wednesday, he had the tickets,
although he also received a call from the NSA, saying that they wanted to hire
Kloet as well; however, Kloet decided to go with the CIA (00:37:02:00)
o When they called, the CIA asked how much time would Kloet need to get there,
so Kloet loaded all his possessions into a Volkswagen Beetle his father had
helped him purchase and drove to Washington D.C., where the CIA paid for a
hotel room in downtown (00:37:35:00)
o The CIA sent Kloet and several others to school in downtown Washington for
training for several months; at the same time, Kloet and the others were scheduled
for polygraph tests (00:38:30:00)
That was Kloet’s first time with a polygraph test and although he has gone
through several others, this was the only one where the questions were
personal, asking about Kloet’s life (00:39:20:00)
There were two types of polygraphs, counter-intelligence and lifestyle;
lifestyle tests covered every facet of someone’s personality, associations,
feelings, and to make sure someone was not crazy (00:39:44:00)
o As soon as someone passed their polygraph test, they went to a psychological
evaluation and were then given a job (00:40:07:00)
Kloet passed all the tests and received a job working in the main CIA building, where he
worked from January 1963 through August 1964 before he quit (00:40:23:00)
o Kloet was considered a temporary employee, which meant he was only going to
work at the CIA for two years, during which time he was evaluated (00:40:41:00)
At the time, the CIA had several missions and Kloet’s job was working in the Human
Intelligence section; there were several support jobs in the section, such as editing
paperwork, and that was where Kloet worked and it was a boring job (00:41:04:00)
o Most of the workers with Kloet were in a test period and the only permanent
employees were the supervisors and above; the work was simple but the
supervisors were watching the workers at all times (00:41:20:00)
�
o The work Kloet did was boring and the people who were the supervisors had
either worked in the field but were declared persona non grata in whatever
country they were stationed or the people had quirks or were divorcees or had
some sort of physical or mental problem (00:41:48:00)
o Kloet did not see any progress because he was not being trained for anything that
he would do in the future (00:42:20:00)
Kloet would occasionally make contact with a person in another section
but that was usually because there was a problem that needed to be
rectified (00:42:29:00)
However, whenever Kloet would go someplace, he had to tell his
supervisor because she was afraid he would try to get out of the job or was
getting too smart and trying to take her job (00:42:41:00)
The other supervisor Kloet worked under was physically injured
and needed mechanical assistance but always wanted to his
workers were he could see them (00:42:54:00)
Kloet did not like the work he did at the CIA and he eventually talked with a co-worker
who was frustrated as well; the co-worker said that he was an officer in the National
Guard and asked if Kloet had ever considered join the Army Reserves and getting a
commission (00:43:11:00)
o Kloet asked what he needed to do and the co-worker said Kloet needed to take a
test and go before an officers’ review board that would evaluate him
(00:43:31:00)
o Kloet decided that he would try it, so he filled out the application, did all the
things he was supposed to do, went before the review board, and the next thing he
knew, Kloet was approved, so he was sworn into the Reserves, although he
continued working at the CIA (00:43:47:00)
Apart from being treated like he did not know anything, Kloet did not like working in an
environment like that (00:44:21:00)
o Eventually, the CIA told Kloet what their future plans were for him but he was
not the type to go sneaking around, but he was told to take the offer or leave it;
Kloet did not like the idea of being a spy and preferred bring in signals
intelligence and doing that type of work (00:44:38:00)
o Kloet’s commission into the Reserves was in the Army Intelligence Security,
which was signals intelligence, which the CIA was not happy about; however, the
CIA could not control the Department of the Army and which branch they gave
Kloet a commission in (00:44:13:00)
Due to all the frustration from his job at the CIA, Kloet eventually submitted a form
requesting active duty, which was approved and he was told to report to Fort Devens,
Massachusetts (00:45:37:00)
o Kloet went into the CIA about a month before he was supposed to report to Fort
Devens and said he was resigning, upon which the CIA immediately transferred
him to another menial job within the same division, which just reinforced Kloet’s
decision (00:46:00:00)
When he went on active duty, Kloet went to train at Fort Devens, which used to be the
home of the U.S. Army Security Service training school (00:46:25:00)
�U.S. Army Security Service (00:46:46:00)
Kloet reported to Fort Devens in September 1964 and went through schooling there,
which was enjoyable; Kloet stayed until December 5th then received orders to deploy
over to Europe to join the U.S. Army Security Service Europe (USASE) (00:46:46:00)
o Once he received the orders, Kloet returned home and dropped his car off with his
father while also giving his father the power of attorney to sell the car
(00:47:32:00)
After his leave, Kloet went to McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey, where the Air
Force flew him and several others first to Gander, Newfoundland, then to Ireland and
finally to Frankfurt, Germany (00:48:04:00)
When Kloet arrived in Frankfurt, there was a driver and an officer waiting in a sedan to
pick him up and take him to the headquarters for processing, although Kloet did not know
yet what his specific assignment was going to be (00:48:54:00)
o During the processing, the Army placed Kloet in a building across the street from
the headquarters and after he was processed, Kloet received orders to go to Berlin
to be assigned to the security unit there (00:49:20:00)
o Kloet was told that when he went to Berlin, he was to wear civilian clothing and
would be considered a civilian; however, Kloet had his hair cut in a military
fashion and only had a single civilian outfit, so he had to rush and find civilian
clothes because the duty train for Berlin was leaving within a week (00:50:08:00)
Kloet also needed a passport, a civilian I.D. card, and several other items,
so the Army had someone escort him around the expedite the entire
process (00:50:30:00)
o Once Kloet got onto the duty train, he had his passport with him and once the
train crossed the border at Helmstadt, it went straight into Berlin; at Helmstadt,
Russians came aboard the train and Kloet gave them his passport, although he
does not know what the Russians did with it before returning (00:50:46:00)
Once Kloet made it to Berlin, he was met by members of the security team he was going
to be a member of; in Berlin, Kloet was housed in bachelor officers’ quarters (BOQs)
near the headquarters for the Berlin Brigade; between the BOQs and the Berlin Brigade
Headquarters was a PX and a sports stadium (00:51:20:00)
o The room Kloet was assigned was nice, with large windows, a kitchen, a
bathroom and a cleaning person assigned to him who, for twenty bucks a month,
would clean, wash dishes, and iron Kloet’s clothes (00:52:11:00)
Kloet also bought an old Volkswagen Beetle from a soldier who was
leaving (00:52:43:00)
o Kloet worked in Berlin from December 1964 until August 1965, when he
received orders to report back to Frankfurt because his slot in the unit was vacated
and no longer needed to be filled because of budgetary reasons (00:53:06:00)
After returning to Frankfurt, Kloet was assigned to a service company, but joined a
detachment of the company based near the main train station in Frankfurt (00:54:11:00)
o After arriving at the detachment, Kloet received the de-facto position of being the
detachment commander; the previous detachment commander had rotated home,
so the Army gave Kloet the position without officially slotting him into it
(00:54:42:00)
�
o In Kloet’s particular specialty, if the Army wanted to keep a soldier, then they
could keep the soldier, not matter how much the soldier fought against it; the only
way someone could get out at the time was to volunteer for Vietnam
(00:55:06:00)
o Kloet wanted to do the work he had been doing while in Berlin, which was where
his Russian and German were the most beneficial; however, Kloet did such a
good job, the Army decided to keep him with the detachment (00:55:22:00)
o Nevertheless, despite living like a king with the detachment, that was not how
Kloet wanted to spend the rest of his deployment in Europe, doing management
tasks, such as: assigning KP duty, promotions boards, and inspections
(00:56:06:00)
Eventually, Kloet put in a volunteer request to deploy to Vietnam and although his
commanders did not like the decision, they could not stop him, so Kloet left Germany in
June 1966 for Fort Bragg, North Carolina to process for overseas replacement into a
combat zone (00:56:42:00)
o At Fort Bragg, Kloet and the other replacements went through gas chambers,
uniform replacement, and firing weapons (00:57:09:00)
o The training was for roughly three months, from June until September, before
Kloet left to deploy to Vietnam (00:57:34:00)
Vietnam Deployment (00:58:11:00)
When he deployed to Vietnam, Kloet thought he would be flying to Vietnam; initially,
Kloet and other soldiers flew from Pope Air Force Base, south of Fort Bragg, on a
chartered airliner to Travis Air Force Base in California (00:58:11:00)
o The next thing he knew, Kloet and the other soldiers were loaded on a boat at the
Oakland Army terminal, a two-stack troop transport (00:58:54:00)
o The transport sailed from Oakland to Tacoma, Washington to pick up artillery
soldiers from Fort Lewis, Washington; Kloet was part of a specific “packet” of
roughly fifty soldiers, officers included, deploying to Saigon (00:59:19:00)
o Once the transport got out into the ocean, a few things happened: first, one of the
men in the packet developed severe asthma and although there was a doctor on
the transport, he did not have the drugs to take care of the asthma (00:59:50:00)
Worried about whether the soldier would survive, the crew diverted the
transport close enough to Okinawa that an amphibious aircraft could fly
out and pick up the soldier (01:00:48:00)
o The transport continued on its course and landed in Okinawa, where everyone
was given an overnight liberty; the next day, drunk soldiers were coming back to
the ship and some were purposely diving over the rails of the ship and into the
water (01:01:18:00)
o Once everyone got back aboard the transport and had made it a good way to
Vietnam, the soldiers were told that the order of debarkation had to be changed
because of an enemy offensive in the northern part of the country (01:01:46:00)
The change in debarkation meant the soldiers landed in Nha Trang, in the
northern part of South Vietnam (01:02:04:00)
o The entire voyage took thirty-one days, so it was getting into October by the time
the soldiers left the transport (01:02:12:00)
�
o Apart from the soldiers on the ship, there were also supplies for the soldiers;
however, because the debarkation order had changed, all the supplies were in the
order for all the units as the transport sailed up the coast (01:02:20:00)
Instead, the supplies were placed on floating barges in the Bay of Nha
Trang while the transport was off-loaded and re-loaded in the new order
for the voyage down the coast (01:02:43:00)
o In Na Trang, some soldiers off-loaded who were supposed to head north because
of the enemy offensive; after Nha Trang, the transport sailed to Qui Nhon and
Cam Ranh Bay before finally arriving in Vung Tau (01:02:54:00)
Once at Vung Tau, the remaining soldiers off-loaded from the troop transport to a smaller
landing craft, which took them to the shore (01:03:48:00)
o Near where soldiers, including some tankers who were joining the 11th Cavalry,
were waiting was an airstrip made from metal, PSP strips (01:03:52:00)
o Eventually, C-123s picked up Kloet and sixty-three other soldiers and took them
all to Bien Hoa Air Force Base, which the airplanes were not supposed to do
(01:04:20:00)
o When the soldiers arrived at Bien Hoa, the packet commander, a captain, went
into operations with the packet’s shipping orders but the personnel in operations
told the captain the packet as supposed to be in Saigon, so the personnel said that
they would make contact to move the soldiers (01:04:53:00)
The soldiers waited at Bien Hoa before buses and a couple of trucks
finally came up; the soldiers loaded on the buses and their equipment went
onto the back of the trucks (01:05:29:00)
The temperature was extremely hot and on the bus, the windows were kept
up with screening over the front of them for grenades to bounce off of
(01:05:46:00)
o Once aboard the buses, the soldiers rode to a compound in a district of Saigon;
although the permanent enlisted quarters were already in the compound, the
officers were given temporary quarters in a hotel across the street (01:06:10:00)
When they arrived, the soldiers were assigned to work at the Combined Intelligence
Center, which was in a temporary structure while their permanent structure was being
built at the time (01:06:38:00)
o After receiving their quarters at a hotel in downtown Saigon, the officers were
bused to where their soldiers were stay, in an old Air Force hanger on Tan Son
Nhut Air Force Base that had been partitioned into a two-floor structure
(01:06:54:00)
o As the soldiers started settling in, Kloet had still not adapted to the heat; it was the
“dry” season, so the temperatures were elevated (01:07:22:00)
Eventually, the soldiers were moved into the permanent structure on Tan Son Nhut and
most of them were assigned to work in the Ground Order Battle section (01:07:36:00)
o Within the section, there were teams that corresponded to the different sections of
Vietnam: I Corps, II Corps, III Corps, IV Corps, Laos / Cambodia, and North
Vietnam, and the sections were all headed by officers and a warrant officer,
(01:07:55:00)
�Kloet was a 1st Lieutenant assigned to the 1st team, which covered I Corps
and worked as the night branch chief with a lieutenant colonel was the
night commander (01:08:22:00)
o Eventually, Kloet took over command of the Ground Order Battle section because
he received a promotion; the position basically involved writing efficiency
reports, supervising production, receiving distribution and controlling an incidents
team (01:08:41:00)
The incidents team worked out of Kloet’s office and took the data
produced by the section teams and processed the information into a
computer database (01:09:12:00)
The section did studies on both the South Vietnamese Army and enemy infiltrations, such
as the size and weaponry of the enemy unit (01:09:49:00)
o Initially, the section relied heavily on the Vietnamese data, although they were
having the same problems as the Americans, an overall lack of intelligence
(01:10:16:00)
o In 1966, the section was using a lot of “agent reports”, which were reports write
by a military intelligence group that Kloet’s battalion was a part of (01:10:36:00)
The military intelligence group had battalions that collected intelligence in
the form of agent reports; however, it was very difficult to verify any
information that was in the reports (01:11:00:00)
o Nobody gave the agent reports much credence; the only reports that received
credence, apart from reports received from the Vietnamese, was information
captured by American soldiers, such as enemy orders (01:11:22:00)
There was a document translation center in the same compound as Kloet’s
unit where they translated any captured enemy information (01:11:39:00)
The section did not receive any signals intelligence because nobody within
the section was cleared for that (01:11:55:00)
o When an American unit made contact with the enemy at specific coordinates, the
information was feed into the computer and basic map was printed out with dots
and numbers correlating to every incident in the country, although the numbers
did not differentiate between whether a report was real or fake (01:12:31:00)
However, in the more heavily contested areas, there were large
concentrations of dots and finding a pattern became difficult; nevertheless,
the information from each incident was stored in a database and with
program, could be extracted (01:13:19:00)
Using the information from the printouts and the database, the soldiers in
the section were able to create studies (01:13:38:00)
o Kloet worked in the section for a year and in that time, the soldiers made several
important studies, such as the actually number of NVA (01:13:49:00)
At one point, a lieutenant colonel from the production division of MACV came to the
unit; the production division was a major part of J-2 and worked to print the intelligence
reports (01:14:16:00)
o The lieutenant colonel came down after the section did a study about the number
of enemy soldiers in country (the total strength of both NVA and VC units in
South Vietnam) and came up with a figure around 300,000 (01:14:44:00)
�
MACV disagreed, believing that the figure was too large, although CIA
intelligence supported the section’s study (01:15:02:00)
o There was to be a large conference using the section’s study, which the soldiers
had meticulously created using the information from their database and the
commanders wanted to make sure the information was accurate (01:15:20:00)
o The section had an adding machine and one of the incidents team members was
very good with it but the lieutenant colonel insisted that an officer do it, so Kloet
had the lieutenant in charge of the incidents team run the machine (01:16:08:00)
When the figures were run again and they came back to what the section
had first reported, so they were given to a colonel whom the soldiers in the
section thought understood the information (01:16:47:00)
However, like a lot of people who thought promotions were more
important than doing what was right, the colonel went to the conference,
where the study, which the entire section had spent a large amount of time
work on, was thrown out (01:17:05:00)
o The section had compiled the report on enemy troop strength in the spring and in
August 1967, a Colonel Graham, later general, came along and became the
director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (01:17:34:00)
Graham was a soldier whose star appeared to be on the rise and when the
Army wanted a study done about the ability of the enemy to perform
offensives in the South, Kloet’s section reported that the enemy could
conduct divisional-sized offensives and attacks (01:18:26:00)
o The section’s original reports were thrown out at the conference because Sec. Of
Defense McNamara was fighting with the director of the CIA (01:19:14:00)
Colonel Graham eventually left and Kloet rotated out and back to Fort Bragg; however,
in January 1968, the Tet Offensive occurred, with the enemy operating in divisions and
making attacks throughout South Vietnam (01:20:20:00)
Inter-deployment (01:21:17:00)
Kloet stayed at Fort Bragg until March 1968 before volunteering to leave; while at Fort
Bragg, Kloet managed to miss the Tet Offensive (01:21:17:00)
o While at Fort Bragg, Kloet was a commander in the headquarters service
company; within service units, there was a headquarters company and Kloet was
the company commander (01:21:33:00)
Kloet had responsibility for all the barracks, the motor pool, and supplies
for the battalion headquarters (01:21:53:00)
o The battalion Kloet joined was aerial reconnaissance support, which used planes
to take photographs and imagery interpreters to analyze the pictures
(01:22:09:00)
However, because of the war, none of the units were at full strength; the
headquarters company alone was larger than the rest of the detachments in
the battalion (01:22:32:00)
o There would be problems with supply or the motor pool and it did not seem to be
getting any better, whereas in Vietnam, Kloet at least knew where the enemy was;
nevertheless, Kloet managed to get the unit organized (01:22:57:00)
�
In December, Kloet came down with an illness and spent two weeks in a hospital;
although he had not thought about going back to Vietnam, while he was in the hospital,
the battalion commander allowed Kloet’s supply sergeant to get an early drop and deploy
to Germany (01:23:25:00)
o The deployment of the supply sergeant should have taken place while Kloet was
there because when Kloet returned to the company, he was given a supply
sergeant who came in and told Kloet that they were in trouble because some
things, such as sheets, pillowcases, and blankets, were missing (01:24:04:00)
At the time, a lot of the major equipment was moved around so much that
most people did not know where it was but because they were large items,
they were squared away quickly; however, the missing sheets and
pillowcases indicated that some trading had been going on (01:24:34:00)
o The supply sergeant was a good trader, so he went to friends who were assigned
to a basic training brigade and was able to get some trainees help him with the
inventories (01:24:48:00)
o After new supply sergeant did the inventories, the unit wound up missing six
watches, which at the time, had individual serial numbers that were kept in the
property book as property of the arm (01:25:13:00)
The boxes were on the shelves but the watches were not in the boxes, so
they sent a letter to Germany and the deployed former supply sergeant had
to pay money for the watches (01:25:32:00)
As Kloet was getting everything organized the way that the battalion commander wanted,
Kloet felt that nothing looked like it was going to last (01:25:56:00)
o When he first got the job, Kloet opened his desk and inside were two full and a
handful of partially full bottles of Maalox; Kloet never met his predecessor but
after going through the process of organizing everything, Kloet understood why
his predecessor drank the Maalox (01:26:16:00)
o Expect for the commander, who was a colonel, and his deputy, who was a major,
Kloet was the senior officer on the battalion staff, although he was only a captain,
which was not typical of battalion staffs (01:26:42:00)
As part of the battalion staff, Kloet had: a terminal infantry officer incharge of supply who was close to getting out and did nothing; a warrant
officer in charge of the motor pool who, although he was in maintenance,
was in artillery maintenance, which had nothing to do with working with
vehicles; no personnel officer apart from a 2nd Lieutenant; and no
operations officer (01:27:16:00)
o Once, there was to be an inspection of the motor pool, so Kloet was ordered to get
the motor pool ready, so he had sent a detail from the headquarters company to go
down and maintain the vehicles; however, the soldiers in detail were misused by
warrant officer, who wanted the soldiers to take care of paperwork (01:28:04:00)
Because unit would get in trouble because of the motor pool, Kloet told
his first sergeant that they needed to place another sergeant in charge of
the detail to supervise the vehicle maintenance (01:28:52:00)
However, the warrant officer did not go to Kloet but went to the major or
the colonel and complained that Kloet was interfering with what the
�
warrant officer was doing, so Kloet had to go up to explained himself and
the colonel agreed with him (01:29:08:00)
The situations within the battalion were making Vietnam look good, so in January 1968,
Kloet put in a request to volunteer for Vietnam (01:29:39:00)
o After the request, the Army sent him to Fort Holabird, Maryland, to receive
training to be tactical intelligence staff officer, which was the first course the
Army had done that; the Army realized they needed trained company-level
captains and below in the battalions if the battalions were going to accomplish
anything (01:30:05:00)
The battalions were not able to just go into the jungle, manage to bump
into the enemy, and expect to be successful (01:30:28:00)
Kloet ended up being the class leader and stayed from March until the end
of May (01:30:38:00)
Once he completed the course at the end of May, Kloet received a leave then flew to
Saigon, where he went through the Long Binh Army Replacement Depot (01:30:52:00)
o From Long Binh, Kloet traveled to Cam Ranh Bay and Nha Trang; Kloet had to
go to the different bases because the airlines did not fly directly to the corps
headquarters in Na Traing (01:31:21:00)
o From Na Traing, Kloet went to Pleiku then to the division area at Ban Me Thuot
before finally joining his team (01:31:48:00)
A problem Kloet and his soldiers faced at the time was determining correct figure
numbers for enemy troop strength (01:32:31:00)
o Many times when units would go into the field and make contact with the enemy,
they did not have time to make a correct count of every enemy soldier who was
killed in that particular contact; as well, it was difficult to count specific casualties
if a bomb was dropped on an area (01:32:39:00)
o The Army had developed a formula and although Kloet does not remember the
exact parameters, for every one dead enemy on the ground that the soldiers
counted, there was an assumption that so many enemy soldiers were carried away
because the enemy tended to carry their wounded and killed away (01:33:03:00)
The Army also applied the formula to wounded enemy soldiers, as the
soldiers would see blood trails and could make assumptions about the
number of wounded (01:33:43:00)
o The soldiers also managed to capture information from the enemy and as time
went on, they captured more paper intelligence which helped form enemy unit
structures (01:33:59:00)
For example, if soldiers captured an enemy or found a piece of paper
saying the enemy was from a specific unit within a larger unit, depending
of the structure, Kloet and the other soldiers might not know anything
about the soldier’s unit beyond the soldier’s platoon (01:34:26:00)
However, Kloet and the soldiers were able to marry different pieces of
information and come to conclusions about the enemy units (01:34:38:00)
o According to the information that the Vietnamese provided would say that an
NVA division had “x” number of soldiers as its strength (01:34:47:00)
�o Nevertheless, following large engagements, Kloet and others had no way of
comparing how the actual casualty numbers compared to the strength of the
enemy unit, which was were the formulas came from (01:35:07:00)
At the time, when someone would ask for information about a specific
enemy unit, Kloet and his soldiers would provide a six-month history of
the unit, stating the number of engagements they had been involved in and
the number of casualties, which where then subtracted from the overall
enemy unit’s strength (01:35:15:00)
However, the soldiers did not know the number of replacements that the
unit received in that time, although the studies on infiltration helped
somewhat (01:35:52:00)
Still, the infiltration studies only gave figures once the enemy
forces entered Vietnam because the Americans had been pounding
the forces all the way down the Ho Chi Minh trail (01:36:04:00)
o As time went on, up until 1967 and 1968, there was not a good handle on the
information about the combat effectiveness of the unit, especially in the southern
areas; in the northern areas, there were a lot of big contacts (01:36:21:00)
o The formulas the Army developed only supplied Kloet and the other soldiers with
an approximate enemy strength but the fact that the figures Kloet and the others
were getting was close to what the CIA provided them made the soldiers feel like
they were on the right track; however, those figures did not match up with the
figures that people in the Pentagon had (01:36:45:00)
For example, if something happened in Saigon, a report had to be at the
Pentagon as soon as possible and the people in the Pentagon were making
decisions based on what they were given directly (01:37:07:00)
Kloet recalls one time, during his second tour, when there was a contact
with the enemy; that night, Kloet was in the bunker as the staff dutyofficer and the enemy was firing mortar shells that were landing on the
roof of the bunker (01:37:32:00)
Kloet received a call from the higher headquarters in Nha Trang
because they were receiving reports from other units and the
headquarters wanted to know what direction the mortars were
coming from (01:37:59:00)
Although he wanted to go off, Kloet said he did not know, ending
the conversation; Kloet then talked with his colonel, telling him
that the higher-ups wanted to know the direction of the mortar fire
but the colonel told Kloet not to worry about it (01:38:21:00)
o Much has been written about the micro-management of the Johnson
Administration and Kloet always felt that although he disagreed with Kennedy, he
had a handle on the Pentagon and could control those people, whereas Johnson
seemed to let the McNamara and the others control the war while Johnson
focused on his social agenda (01:39:00:00)
Therefore, Kloet feels that Johnson would react to a situation instead of
making policy (01:39:47:00)
�
o At Kloet’s level, he and his soldiers took whatever information they had and tried
to stick it into some sort of order; nevertheless, Kloet and his soldiers were not
privy to the high-level signals intelligence (01:40:38:00)
The Vietnamese general in charge of intelligence would talk with the
Vietnamese working with Kloet and also sat in with the higher-level
American intelligence officers; often, when the American’s presented
information, the general said that the Vietnamese knew the information
months before (01:40:54:00)
Every day during his first tour, Kloet had contact with the Vietnamese intelligence
because the Vietnamese and Americans worked as a combined unit (01:41:45:00)
o However, whereas the Americans rotated soldiers in and out of the unit, the
Vietnamese soldiers were permanent and many of the Vietnamese soldiers were
bright but they never received recognition for being bright (01:42:07:00)
o For whatever reason, the decision was made to allow a coup d’etat against the
ruling Vietnamese administration and the decision was made that the Americans
would run the war and get it to the point that they could turn the war over to the
Vietnamese (01:42:56:00)
After the decision, the fighting went from counter-insurgency to an almost
full-scale, linear war with divisions against divisions and battalions against
battalions (01:43:18:00)
Nevertheless, Kloet feels that the decision exacerbated the problem
because the more the Americans built up, the more forces the enemy sent
in (01:43:30:00)
While Kloet was in Saigon from 1966 to 1967, there was not fighting within the city,
although there were incidents, particularly involving Saigon Annie (01:43:50:00)
o Saigon Annie was a Viet Cong who rode on the back of a motorcycle and
shooting at Americans who were at bus stops (01:43:57:00)
Stories about the shootings appeared in Stars & Stripes but Annie made a
mistake when, one time, she approached the bus stop just outside an
American base (01:44:10:00)
One of the Air Force police was at the bus stop and was armed with a
shotgun; when he saw what the happening, the officer fired his shotgun,
destroying Annie, the motorcycle driver and the motorcycle (01:44:41:00)
o There were several nice restaurants in the city that the soldiers were able to visit,
including a restaurant that served better French onion soup than what Kloet ate
while in Europe (01:45:33:00)
A friend of Kloet’s, whom Kloet had attended college with, was also
assigned to Saigon as part of a transportation unit and the two would get
together at various times to go to dinner (01:45:36:00)
o Eventually, the Army moved Kloet and the others into Cholon, which was the
Chinese section of the city, although according to the map the soldiers had, their
new location was close to an enemy company (01:46:01:00)
The Army then decided it was too dangerous for the officers, so they
moved the officers again and Kloet was sent to a location along the road
into Cholon, where he stayed for the remainder of his tour (01:46:21:00)
�
o When the soldiers moved throughout the city, they did not take their weapons; the
only major threat had been Saigon Annie and she was dead (01:47:10:00)
Nevertheless, there were some locations, such as Cholon, where the
soldiers were advised not to go (01:47:21:00)
Once Kloet got back to Fort Bragg, although there were a lot of military people around
because it was a large base, they had been considered second-class citizens for a long
time up until that point, especially with the war going on (01:47:53:00)
o Several times, Kloet received letters from jewelry stores saying that a soldier had
purchased a diamond ring but was not paying; Kloet would go to his commanding
officer to ask if the Army had become a collection agency and the officer told
Kloet to the store that they would do everything the could to get the soldier to pay
his bills (01:48:30:00)
Kloet would ended up writing a letter saying that the Army would trying
to get the soldier to pay his bills but that was it (01:48:59:00)
o In Fayetteville, outside of the base, the soldiers were considered intruders
although the base had been there for a long time (01:49:28:00)
The issue never became important until there were discussions about
closing the base down, which caused changes in the attitudes towards the
soldiers (01:49:37:00)
During his second tour, Kloet worked as the intelligence advisor to the Vietnamese
intelligence officer at the province capital (01:51:05:00)
o There were also district levels and they had intelligence but the Americans did not
have advisors at the district level; there was one but after he left, the Army did not
fill the position (01:51:16:00)
o Kloet dealt with a Vietnamese captain and Kloet’s job with the captain was Kloet
had funds to pay for intelligence while the captain had to provide monthly
receipts for what he had spent the funds on, such as paying his sources or buying
equipment for his soldiers (01:52:10:00)
Kloet then had to report and turn in the receipts before getting more
money (01:52:46:00)
o As well, Kloet kept a journal, the only time he was able to do so; using cryptic
abbreviations, Kloet reported what happened during any given day (01:52:58:00)
o Every day, Kloet and his two workers had to write an intelligence report and send
it to higher headquarters via telegraph but because of the programs with the
telegraphs, he would often need to make copies of the reports and send them by
courier (01:53:48:00)
Other times, such as the incident with the mortars, information went out as
a spot report about what had happened (01:54:30:00)
o Kloet also gave briefings to visiting personnel, including current Senator John
McCain’s father, an admiral (01:54:58:00)
When Admiral McCain visited, the soldiers rehearsed their presentations,
including overlays and markers for enemy and friendly positions
(01:55:20:00)
The soldiers had a defined timeframe for the briefing before the
Admiral had to leave so Kloet began the briefing but during the
briefing, the Admiral came onto the platform (01:56:29:00)
�
However, Kloet was given fifteen minutes maximum for his
briefing and as he got to the end of it, the Admiral came up and
began asking for explanations, so Kloet was not explaining his
briefing but also explaining what had happened within the last
month (01:58:29:00)
Kloet began talking about past operations and activities, which
lasted for about half an hour (01:58:57:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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KloetR1071V1
Title
A name given to the resource
Kloet, Ronald (Interview outline and video, 1 of 3), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kloet, Ronald
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Kloet was born on August 8th, 1936 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. After graduating from high school and briefly attending Davenport University, Kloet enlisted in the Air Force in 1955. After completing his basic training at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, Kloet transferred to nearby Kelly Air Force Base for "radio intercept traffic analyst" training. Once he completed the training at Kelly, Kloet deployed to Shiroi Air Force Base in Japan. Because advancement in his branch was difficult, once his two-year deployment was complete, Kloet chose to get out of the Air Force and enrolled at Michigan State University to study for a Russian degree. After completing his Bachelor's Degree, Kloet briefly thought about continuing for a Master's Degree but instead decided to take a job working for the CIA. However, the job was not what Kloet had expected, so he eventually re-enlisted in the Army and after leaving the CIA and receiving additional training at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, Kloet deployed to Germany. Kloet moved around several units in Germany, eventually ending up as the de facto leader of a detachment in a town outside of Frankfurt. However, that was not the work Kloet expected to do, so he put in a transfer request to Vietnam and after training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, deployed to Vietnam. Once in Vietnam, Kloet stayed in Saigon working as part of the intelligence services, creating reports about enemy infiltration rates and troop strengths. After his tour, Kloet returned to Fort Bragg in March 1968, missing the Tet Offensive before deploying for a second tour as an intelligence advisor at a province capital. (see parts 2 and 3 for rest of career)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
United States. Air Force
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2011-02-24
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2011e4452200dc8c97cc962ee042e48d.mp4
1a5d98eb5acf3ff0b2f4457a68337aef
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/55d2598b8261bfbb7043af898c54e4fe.pdf
5d5eddaf65932f7d87db791e1ebe6946
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Ron Kloet part 2
Vietnam War
Interview Length: (02:37:28:00)
Recap / Third Vietnam Tour (00:00:57:00)
During his first tour in Vietnam, Kloet worked in the combined intelligence center in
Saigon, which included both Vietnam and American personnel and personnel from all the
service branches and had the assignment of creating “orders of battle” about the different
enemy forces (00:00:57:00)
o During his second tour in Vietnam, Kloet again worked with the Vietnamese in
the Central Highlands region as an S-2 advisor to a Vietnamese captain who
collected intelligence regarding enemy activity in the local province
(00:01:19:00)
o After returning from his first tour in March 1968, Kloet had a gap until his next
assignment in June 1968 because he was in school (00:01:59:00)
o When his second tour ended in June 1969, Kloet received a thirty-day leave in
order to go home because he had re-upped for another tour (00:02:20:00)
After the thirty-day leave, Kloet returned to Vietnam in July and served from July 1969
until July 1970 (00:02:34:00)
o During the third tour, Kloet served with the 1st Air Cavalry Division, which was
where he specifically wanted to go when he re-upped (00:02:47:00)
o Whereas the second tour had been peaks and valleys of action and in-action, the
third tour was constant peaks, which meant Kloet was always busy (00:02:57:00)
When he arrived at the 1st Air Cav., Kloet received orders to replace a captain and two
lieutenants as a battle section chief, all of whom left the following day; however, Kloet
had done the work before, so he did not necessarily need help except for a short briefing
on how the three officers had been running the operation previously (00:03:11:00)
o Kloet meet with the assistant to the unit’s G-2, a major, and the major said that the
G-2, a colonel, wanted Kloet to clean the section up regarding twenty-four, seven
operation with a systematic organization (00:03:35:00)
o Kloet had to come up with a proposal of how many people it would take to run
two twelve-hour shifts with officer supervision and an NCOIC (NonCommissioned Officer In Charge) for all the enlisted personnel (00:04:04:00)
The design of the section was to cover all possibilities relating to enemy
activity in the 1st Air Cav.’s area, from local enemy activity such as the
Viet Cong, up to entire NVA divisions and echelons above divisions, as
well as enemy infiltration (00:04:47:00)
At the time, the 1st Air Cav. was stationed in the “3rd Military Region” (the III Corps),
which included Saigon; the actual base camp for the division was Phuoc Vinh in the
Phuoc Long province, which was north of the Binh Xuyen River, north and west of
Saigon (00:05:11:00)
o The terrain in the region was flat and consisting of rice paddies and jungle,
although to the south was some jungle, which had the designation of “war zone
�
D” and extended south into the next province; to the north, there were the rice
paddies that locals farmed as well as more jungle (00:05:46:00)
The locals used water buffalo for farming and one night, the buffalo herd
went down a trail another unit was monitoring with electronic
surveillance; to the soldiers monitoring the trail, the herd looked like
enemy soldiers, so they had the artillery fire their 8 in. guns (00:06:48:00)
The next morning, the locals were angry because the artillery had
destroyed twenty-eight of their water buffalo (00:07:49:00)
Part of the area where the division had it’s base camp was a rubber
plantation and the buildings that the Military Intelligence (MI) company,
amongst others, occupied were on the plantation (00:08:15:00)
Under the concept of a military intelligence company, the unit was only supposed to be a
detachment assigned to the G-2 but over time, the unit expanded to a company-sized unit
configured to support the G-2 section of the division (00:08:58:00)
o The G-2 was the chief intelligence officer within the division and was normally a
lieutenant colonel who could also have an assistant (00:09:14:00)
When Kloet arrived at the division, he “jumped into the frying pan” (00:09:44:00)
o In early August 1969, the enemy conducted a major offensive in Military Region
3; at the time, Kloet’s division had the responsibility of the province from the
Cambodian border to the II Corps’ boundary (00:09:50:00)
The offensive started in the Binh Long province by the 9th Viet Cong
Division while other units attacked both the division base camp and a
brigade base camp further to the north (00:10:29:00)
Eventually, an entire task force, code-named SHOEMAKER, was sent
north in order to coordinate the activities of both the Cav. and an armored
unit that was also in the area (00:11:01:00)
They took someone from Kloet’s unit to be in the task force and
Kloet was thankful that he was not chosen because he wanted to
“get his feet under him” before going on a mission (00:11:18:00)
The task force and soldiers went through some extremely tough fighting,
with the enemy almost overrunning the base camp (00:11:39:00)
o After the offensive in the north subsided, another enemy infiltration came north
from War Zone D Phuoc Long province orchestrated by the 5th Viet Cong
division (00:11:45:00)
o Enemy activity continued through October, November and December because the
division covered such a large geographic area in III Corps (00:12:12:00)
When he had served as a de facto S-2 during his second tour in II Corps, Kloet talked
with one company commander and his deputy and both said that they normally had
around seventy-six soldiers fit for duty at any one time whereas the company had an
authorized strength of around one-hundred-and-forty soldiers (00:12:34:00)
o At one point, Kloet met with General Hal Moore, famous from the Battle of Ia
Drang Valley and the subsequent book We Were Soldiers, and according to
General Moore, when the division deployed to Vietnam, it consisted of roughly
seventy percent of the soldiers who had started in training (00:13:49:00)
That amount stayed consistent until individual replacement soldiers began
being feed into openings (00:14:19:00)
�
With R&R’s, wounded soldiers, and other situations where a soldier was
gone but still “on the books”, it was difficult to get any continuity in
estimates regarding troop strength in the division (00:14:26:00)
o Overall, the entire division was spread too thin, which was exhausting for the
soldiers; however, the one advantage companies in the division had over regular
line companies was access to a large number of helicopters (00:14:42:00)
In theory, the division could air assault an entire brigade at one time if
necessary to any target area; on the other hand, line companies had to take
trucks and could only travel in smaller elements (00:15:05:00)
With their air mobility, the division was able to cover a larger amount of
territory which upset the abilities of the enemy; because the division could
get troops to a given location rather quickly, the enemy could not plan
large, intricate operations (00:15:29:00)
Once he had successfully re-organized the section, Kloet began performing a day-to-day
process (00:16:07:00)
o At the time, Kloet’s unit had an agreement with a documentation center in Saigon
so that all the paperwork Kloet’s unit obtained on one day would be taken to
Saigon by liaison and returned the following day with cursory translations as to
what each document contained, although if the center believed a document to be
of extreme importance, they translated the entire document (00:16:16:00)
o The problem for Kloet was he was dealing with an entirely new staff of soldiers
who, although they were good soldiers, did not fully understand what needed to
be done; therefore, Kloet himself screened the entire stack of translated
documents, deciding which were important and which were not (00:16:55:00)
o Initially, Kloet had two lieutenants working for him, one to command the day
shift and the other to command the night shift; however, one of the lieutenants
had gone through Airborne and Ranger training, considered the assignment
beneath him, and decided to transfer (00:17:34:00)
When the one lieutenant transferred out, Kloet decided that he would
maintain the day shift and the remaining lieutenant would command the
night shift (00:18:14:00)
The arrangement did not work from the beginning because the other
lieutenant, although a good soldier, did not know what exactly he was
supposed to do (00:18:30:00)
Although Kloet was supposed to mentor the lieutenant in the job, it
was still a war zone (00:18:51:00)
Nevertheless, Kloet believed the lieutenant could handle to job
because Kloet thought back to his own experiences as a 2nd
lieutenant when he just dove into his assignment because he
realized that he would be held responsible for the work; however,
the lieutenant never picked up on that (00:19:32:00)
o Every study that went out from the section needed Kloet’s approval, which was a
major job at first because in addition to teaching the new soldiers how to do their
jobs, Kloet needed to proofread all their work to make sure it met the criteria for
the G-2 (00:19:51:00)
�
The G-2 would send out specific requirements for information, which
Kloet relayed to the NCOIC, a sergeant, who told the other soldiers the
requirements (00:20:22:00)
The sergeant was a benefit to Kloet because he too had worked in
military intelligence before and would pick up on what needed to
be done (00:20:36:00)
o Every night by midnight, there was supposed to a report sent out electronically
that reported on all activities that had occurred in the division’s area for the day,
intelligence included, and Kloet’s unit had the assignment of putting notes on the
intelligence information (00:21:06:00)
Part of the lieutenant’s job was synthesizing all the information; however,
the lieutenant would take the information up and the G-2 staff would
immediately call Kloet (00:21:41:00)
o Kloet would go in the morning, usually around six in the morning, and would not
get to bed until around ten-thirty or eleven o’clock at night, which did not include
waking up from incoming enemy fire (00:21:56:00)
o The lieutenant did not know how to properly synthesize the information and
although he had gone through his officers basic course, it seemed to Kloet that the
lieutenant had not learned anything (00:22:20:00)
o Eventually, it reached the point that Kloet was staying up until the report was sent
to press (00:23:04:00)
o Kloet does not believe he could have handled all the work he had to do without
help from the NCOIC sergeant, who took care of the enlisted men (00:23:24:00)
One time, there was a soldier who complained about not liking his job and
would “disappear” from time to time; eventually, the others found him in
the men’s room reading comic books and the sergeant ended up having a
long discussion with the soldier (00:23:45:00)
The soldiers had bunkers built behind their “hooch” and Kloet’s personal sleeping area
consisted of a cot next to the back door covered by mosquito netting, a small foot locker,
and a fan he bought at the PX (00:24:42:00)
o Kloet believes he got the fan illegally because he did not have permission from
the officer in-charge of electricity; the entire base ran off a power grid supplied by
generators, so there was limited electronic power available and soldiers needed
permission to have a fan (00:25:18:00)
One time, Kloet and a friend went into the PX to get the fan and because
Kloet talked so quickly, the E-4 working in the PX did not know what to
do, so he forgot to ask whether Kloet had permission (00:25:43:00)
o The fan sat on Kloet’s foot locker and was a blessing because the temperature was
hot (00:26:16:00)
o There was a road behind the hooch with a huge bunker next to it; each hooch had
an individual bunker assigned to it (00:26:26:00)
Kloet never once went into the bunker assigned to his hooch, even when
the base came under mortar and rocket attacks (00:26:49:00)
First, Kloet had already been in Vietnam for three years and the
attacks no longer seemed to phase him and he came to the
�
conclusion that if he heard a round and it landed, then he was still
alive (00:27:11:00)
Secondly, there were snakes that loved the bunkers because the
bunkers were dry (00:27:38:00)
In February 1970, Kloet was involved in a “fragging” incident because for a period in
December and January, the unit did not have a commander; the commander had gone
home on an emergency leave because his sole surviving parent, his mother, had had a
physical problem (00:28:28:00)
o In companies that worked in a base camp and not in the fields as actually
companies but as attachments to various sections, they could get along without
having a commander (00:29:28:00)
In normal, peace-time situations, someone would temporarily sit-in for the
departed commander (00:30:16:00)
o However, because there was no commander, chaos very slowly began creeping
into the entire unit (00:30:36:00)
o At the end of January and beginning of February, the unit went through an IG
inspection; however, the inspection was not like those in the United States, where
everything needed to be polished and put in the right place (00:30:46:00)
This inspection was only intended to check how everything was going in
the unit (00:31:09:00)
However, everything in the unit was not going well; the sandbags
surrounding the bunkers were deteriorating and other things were just
falling apart, something the inspectors did not like (00:31:14:00)
Once they completed their inspection, the inspectors would inform the G-2
that the area was either good or needed improvement; if the later occurred,
the G-2 needed someone to take care of the problem, so the G-2 appointed
a major to become the interim company commander (00:31:48:00)
However, the major did not like receiving the assignment as the
company commander because he had dreams of glory and bigger
and better things (00:32:17:00)
Instead of actually working at the company’s position, the major spent his
time at the G-2, which meant he was not able to supervise what was
happening in the company (00:32:36:00)
Instead, the major delegated tasks to the company first sergeant,
who delegated the tasks to another sergeant, with orders that as
men came off a shift, they were supposed to take care of the
problems (00:33:11:00)
o The new orders did not go over well and as a result, the soldiers would talk to
Kloet; the soldiers picked up on the arrogance of the major and Kloet learned that
they were blaming him for all the problems and the extra work (00:33:30:00)
o Kloet had a choice: either talk to the major or not; however, the major was not apt
to listen to Kloet, so Kloet went to his actual commanding officer, another major,
and explained the problems with the major (00:34:13:00)
Kloet’s commanding officer told Kloet to keep track of the situation and in
late February was when soldiers began throwing rocks onto the top of
Kloet’s hooch because the rocks sounded like grenades (00:34:49:00)
�o One night, Kloet got off work at 10:30, which was relatively early, and went to
the showers before going back to his hooch and going to bed; whenever he went
to bed, it took little time for Kloet to fall asleep because he knew that he was
getting up the next day (00:35:07:00)
All the soldiers had developed a habit of listening with one ear while they
slept and as he slept, Kloet heard the “clink, clink” on the roof, which had
been going on for a while; however, the next thing Kloet knew, there was
a large explosion (00:36:03:00)
The first thing Kloet did was look over and saw that his fan had been
knocked to the ground and was off (00:36:35:00)
Within the hooch, Kloet’s bunk and foot looker were directly against one
of the walls and near one of the doors; the rest of the hooch consisted of
major’s area, which was in the center and covered with sandbags, a small
common area, and the area for the interrogation section (00:36:51:00)
Following the explosion, Kloet was looking through the dust and could see
pieces of wood lying about; eventually, he managed to get untangled from
the mosquito net, which had collapsed on the bed (00:37:43:00)
As he got out of the bed, Kloet accidentally stepped on a board with a nail
in it, which went into Kloet’s foot; after pulling the board out, Kloet saw
the captain in charge of the interrogation section (00:38:07:00)
When he first heard the clicking, the captain had stepped out off
his office and during the explosion, a piece of wood with three
nails in it flew past the captain, scratching his face, before
imbedding itself in a piece of plywood (00:38:19:00)
Eventually, the military police came around to investigate what had
happened; when Kloet explained it had been grenades, the MPs said that
grenades did not have fingerprints and the MPs ended up not asking many
pertinent questions (00:38:52:00)
Luckily, no one was seriously wounded in the explosion; the major was in
his own little bunker, while the one captain was scratched by the nails,
which caused him to have a mental breakdown (00:39:38:00)
o The major reacted to the “fragging” attempt by placing guards around the hooch,
including one on the bunker behind the hooch and roaming patrols throughout the
company area (00:39:55:00)
However, apart from their regular shifts, the soldiers were now also
expected to go on guard duty, which also did not go over very well with
the soldiers (00:40:35:00)
o Kloet eventually found out that the soldier who committed the “fragging” was in
Kloet’s unit because some of the other soldiers told him (00:40:48:00)
The soldier was a transfer from the aviation battalion, which set off a red
flag in Kloet’s mind because the Army did not transfer a soldier in-country
unless there was a problem in the soldier’s previous unit (00:41:14:00)
Kloet learned that prior to the “fragging” incident, the transferred soldier
had pulled his pistol on another of Kloet’s soldiers; however, other
soldiers suspected he might do this, so they took the magazine out of the
pistol (00:42:31:00)
�
Eventually, the soldier ended up leaving the unit as part of the normal
rotation of soldiers (00:43:47:00)
Cambodia / Information Gathering (00:44:10:00)
For the most part, the intensity of the action stayed the same during the tour, with the
only lull coming around December; however, following the new year, the unit began
studies into new areas as other units began moving into those areas (00:44:10:00)
o One soldier had made a study about a specific region and had given the study to
Kloet so that Kloet could brief the commanding officers; however, Kloet had
taken the position with the requirement that the soldiers who developed the
studies would be part of the briefings (00:44:38:00)
o Following the new year, the unit moved into Tay Ninh to set up interdiction
operations to stop enemy movements from Cambodia into southern Vietnam,
specifically into Region 4 (00:45:22:00)
o During this time was when American soldiers were performing operations inside
of Cambodia (00:45:48:00)
While the units were preparing for the operations in Cambodia, Kloet and
another soldier visited fire bases around Tay Ninh as well as a special
forces base near the border (00:46:02:00)
While at the special forces base, the other soldier accidentally
walked into an active minefield (00:46:28:00)
o Kloet himself went into Cambodia at the beginning of June (00:47:24:00)
One morning, Kloet was woken up and was told that the G-2 wanted to go
to Cambodia because there had been a sapper attack on a camp that was on
the border (00:47:42:00)
As Kloet and another soldier boarded a helicopter, it was foggy outside
and as the helicopter climbed into the foothills of the mountains, the fog
became heavier (00:48:09:00)
Eventually, the helicopter arrived at the base and the soldiers onboard got off on went through the gate into the base, where the G-2
met the commanding officer, a colonel (00:48:41:00)
While the G-2 talked with the colonel, who was his friend, he told Kloet to
count the number of wounded and try to get an intelligence (00:49:15:00)
Kloet and the other soldier walked along the perimeter where the
sapper attack occurred and based on the bodies, Kloet did not
believe that any sappers actually made it into the base; instead, he
and the other soldier counted twenty-eight bodies (00:49:27:00)
The soldiers had set out claymores around the camp with fougasses
in front of the claymores; the fougases were filled with soap so that
as both the fougases and claymores exploded, the burning soap
particles would stick to the ball-bearings from the claymores
causing the ball-bearings to burn (00:49:51:00)
In one area, an NVA soldier had been carrying a pack with RPG
rounds when he was hit with the burning ball-bearings, and the
lower part of his torso was in one area while the other part was
several feet away (00:50:35:00)
�
As Kloet and the other soldier gathered information, the found out
that the majority of the NVA attackers were armed with AK-47
rifles and RPGs (Rocket Propelled Grenades) (00:51:01:00)
At the entrance to the base was a .50 caliber machine gun and the
soldier manning it happened to kill an enemy officer; the officer
had been carrying a Luger-type pistol, which Kloet tried to con the
soldier out of (00:51:19:00)
As the helicopter had flown up to the camp, the soldiers saw where B-52
bombers had flown and decimated the area; Kloet figures the bombing
attacks must have been recent because no moisture had gathered in the
craters (00:52:10:00)
There had only been one injury to an American soldier from the sapper
attack on the base that Kloet and the G-2 visited (00:52:31:00)
A lieutenant who had been a helicopter pilot who had been shot
down ten times, which meant he was grounded, had been assigned
as the air liaison officer for the brigade (00:52:37:00)
During the attack, a claymore exploded near the lieutenant and
some fragmentation went into the lieutenant’s head; because of the
severity of the wounds, the lieutenants was medi-vaced out
(00:54:00:00)
During his first tour, Kloet found very few enemy documents that needed translation but
as various units had more successful contact with enemy forces, more and more
documents came in (00:55:01:00)
o The Air Cav. in particular, especially in Cambodia, recovered so many documents
that Kloet did not have enough soldiers to go through them (00:55:18:00)
o By the time it was 1970, Kloet was receiving stacks of translations and summaries
of enemy documents (00:55:25:00)
One of the more valuable soldiers in any unit was the personnel officer
who kept a record of all the soldiers in the unit and on some occasions, the
Americans would kill an NVA personnel officer who had his information
in a book in his pack (00:55:39:00)
Information in the book was valuable to Kloet and his men because
it told what NVA unit and what the soldiers did (00:56:07:00)
On the other hand, the soldiers would get maps off dead NVA officers that
told what other NVA units were going to do (00:56:15:00)
If the Americans attacked an NVA base camp, the enemy often fled before
they were unable to get rid of all their information, which the Americans
were then able to capture (00:56:19:00)
o The majority of the information that Kloet and his soldiers examined came from
the NVA because the Viet Cong were part of the community (00:56:40:00)
By 1970, Kloet and the other soldiers believed that all the enemy divisions
were NVA, although some still carried the moniker of being Viet Cong
(00:57:10:00)
o Captured documents gave the analysts and idea of what enemy units were where,
what the units’ strengths were, who the commanders were, etc. (00:57:26:00)
�o As time when on and more documents were discovered, the soldiers made several
discoveries about the enemy (00:57:43:00)
First, the soldiers found out that the enemy was working more and more in
what Kloet labeled as “task forces”, where companies from different units
would join together so that if the individual companies were destroyed, an
entire unit was not destroyed as well (00:57:52:00)
Second, the soldiers discovered that the enemy was cutting back on the
automatic weapons issued to their soldiers and had returned to issuing
semi-automatic weapons (00:58:40:00)
The AK-47 was fully automatic and soldiers tended to fire their
entire allotment of ammunition quickly; however, the enemy was
having ammunition supply problems because the Americans were
successfully performing interdiction operations (00:58:55:00)
o When they went into Cambodia, the soldiers found positions where the enemy
had back-loaded thousands of rifles, machine-guns, and ammunition
(00:59:40:00)
o Through the intelligence, the Americans learned the combat effectiveness of the
NVA forces and became less afraid of them (01:00:06:00)
o The best pieces of intelligence, apart from ordinary body counts and captured
documents, were prisoners who could often give information (01:00:21:00)
On some occasions, an enemy soldier decided that he had had enough of
being shot at and decided to surrender (01:00:43:00)
Once, an enemy reconnaissance lieutenant surrendered and told the
Americans exactly where the enemy units were, which units were
going to move where, and which units were going to attack which
American positions (01:01:07:00)
o After a while, Kloet and his soldiers had built an impressive database that was
filled with good information (01:01:20:00)
o In regards to prisoners, the MPs controlled the POW camps and the interrogation
section had a responsibility to finish gathering any information from the prisoners
quickly, before the prisoners were shipped back (01:01:37:00)
Any priority prisoners needed to identified quickly, although that was not
always the case (01:01:57:00)
The division base camp was labeled as the AOT and it’s defense
fell under the command of the division artillery commander, with
different battalions rotating every six months as the guard units
(01:02:11:00)
o Once, a battalion on AOT defense captured a prisoner and
without telling anyone, used the prisoner as a point man on
further operations (01:02:43:00)
Normally, if an enemy soldier declared himself as a
refugee, then he was not supposed to be used in any
further combat operations (01:03:02:00)
Another time, soldiers captured an Vietnamese who was listening
to helicopter communications (01:03:28:00)
�
o Because the soldier was signals intelligence, the
interrogation section of Kloet’s company began working on
him; however, once word got out that the Americans had
captured a signals intelligence soldier, higher-ranking
government agencies wanted interrogate him and they just
sent people to take him (01:04:06:00)
o Normally, the interrogators were supposed to report that
they had captured a signals intelligence soldier immediately
but they did not because the soldier was giving them good
information (01:04:54:00)
During the Cambodian operations, there were more people
available to interrogate and debrief any prisoners; there was a flood
of prisoners and most gave good information (01:05:18:00)
Within the division headquarters base camp, there were USO girls who ran small clubs
for the soldiers; however, the girls did not date the ordinary soldiers (01:06:08:00)
o Normally, it was the helicopter pilots who dated the USO girls (01:06:44:00)
o Kloet’s unit’s first sergeant lived with a Vietnamese woman on the base camp, but
that was a highly unusually situation because civilians were normally not
supposed to be in a tactical zone on a base camp (01:07:07:00)
There were not Vietnamese working on the base camp during the day (01:07:24:00)
To Kloet, morale was a relative term in the sense that each unit determined their own
morale and there was not an over-arching moral that applied to all the soldiers and all the
units (01:07:38:00)
o Most of the time, the overall moral in Kloet’s unit was good, except the time with
the interim commanding officer (01:07:51:00)
Kloet had four or five soldiers extend their tours once their first tour ended
because they did not want to go back to the United States (01:08:03:00)
o However, in the units rotating in for the base camp guard duty, there was less
positive moral because the soldiers were taken out of combat and given what
amounted to house-keeping duties (01:08:16:00)
At the time, Kloet was a junior officer, which meant he ate in the junior
officers' mess hall; one of the other officers was a lieutenant with the
headquarters company, which was in charge of the guard forces
(01:08:52:00)
However, the dislike was so bad that the officers did not sleep with
the company so that the guard soldiers could not find them
(01:09:13:00)
The one lieutenant in particular was glad to leave the base camp,
even if it meant going to an ammunition supply point along the
Cambodian border (01:09:22:00)
Soldiers coming out of combat were often squirrelly (01:10:13:00)
It was difficult to diagnose stress problems unless someone had
already been stressed (01:10:36:00)
Kloet does not know how much of an issue drugs were on the base
camp, although he does know it was a little more difficult to get
drugs on the camp (01:11:27:00)
�
o The soldiers were not allowed to go into the village but
helicopters pilots were able to fly around, giving them the
ability to get drugs and bring them back (01:11:32:00)
o When Kloet was working in II Corps, he saw more open
drug usage (01:11:42:00)
o Overall, Kloet did not see much in the way of racial tension amongst the soldiers,
although during his final tour in Germany, Kloet definitely saw more racial
tension (01:11:52:00)
Apart from doing his regular work within his section, Kloet also had to do administrative
duties as soldiers began rotating in and out of the unit (01:12:48:00)
o One soldier did not look the job that Kloet had assigned him to, so the soldier
volunteered for Ranger school; however, to get into the school, any prospective
soldiers had to go through a one-week course (01:13:01:00)
Kloet knew the Ranger commander because Ranger units in the field
received orders to collect any intelligence (01:14:07:00)
Kloet could not stop the soldier from going to the school and when the
soldier went, but before he went, Kloet talked with the Ranger commander
and told the commander to put the soldier through the same routine that
any other soldier went through (01:14:28:00)
Two days later, the soldier is back and says that he wants to be a
helicopter door-gunner, so he submitted the paperwork again and receives
the re-assignment; however, within a month, the soldier was killed
(01:15:41:00)
During his first tour, Kloet went to Japan for R&R and during his second tour, he went to
Australia; however, during the third tour, Kloet received two R&Rs because the Air Cav.
gave R&Rs based in six-month intervals (01:16:17:00)
o During one of the R&Rs, Kloet went to Taipei and during the other, he went to
Hong Kong (01:16:40:00)
o When he got off the plane in Taipei, local pimps were practically on the bus with
Kloet; when he got to a hotel run by the R&R centers, the pimps were able to go
right into the hotel (01:17:15:00)
There was a lot of culture shock for Kloet in Taipei, including the different
foods he could eat (01:17:50:00)
Kloet and some other soldiers went to the Presidential Palace and upset the
palace guards by taking pictures (01:18:11:00)
o In Hong Kong, Kloet stayed in a large hotel and shared a room with a Marine
officer (01:18:30:00)
Going on tours throughout the city as well as just walking around was all
enjoyable for Kloet (01:19:01:00)
The ability to get clean water and showers was fantastic (01:19:21:00)
By the time he went to Australia during the second tour, Kloet had
a permanent black mark on his forearm because the soldiers never
received enough hot water to shower and properly clean
themselves (01:19:27:00)
�o Kloet had been in Sydney when the Australians were constructing the famous
opera house, so Kloet and some others were able to get a tour of the area
(01:20:10:00)
The military encouraged soldiers to meet up with an Australian family, so
Kloet decided to do so and received the family of barrister, which equated
to an American lawyer (01:20:47:00)
Kloet arrived at the family’s home around six o’clock in the
evening believing that he and the family were going to eat dinner;
however, unbeknownst to him, the family usually did not eat until
later and they preferred to drink before dinner (01:21:20:00)
When Kloet arrived, the family patriarch brought him a large, dark
beer, which Kloet drank, but by the time dinner came at eight
o’clock, he was tipsy (01:21:30:00)
o When Kloet twice went to Bangkok for R&R, he found the city to be very
crowded (01:22:11:00)
One of the most interesting incidents in Bangkok was when Kloet was
walking through a reptile house at a local zoo (01:22:56:00)
As Kloet was walking, a sign said “World’s Largest Sea
Crocodile”, so Kloet began walking in that direction (01:23:07:00)
However, as he walked past one of the other boxes, a massive King
Cobra struck the glass, scaring Kloet (01:23:27:00)
o All the R&Rs Kloet went on were educational, especially with the history of the
areas and because Kloet was a history buff, he enjoyed that (01:23:49:00)
o During his time in Australia, Kloet had a slight physical problem that he had to
deal with (01:24:02:00)
During the tour, Kloet had a slight bout of dysentery, a problem
compounded by the need for Kloet to take malaria pills; as well, Kloet also
had a carbuncle on one of his legs (01:24:18:00)
When Kloet arrived in Australia, one of the first things he wanted as a
good meal, so he went to a restaurant (01:25:03:00)
Kloet got through about half the steak he ordered before needed to
go to the bathroom (01:25:19:00)
Post-Cambodian Operations (01:25:43:00)
Everything was anti-climatic once the soldiers returned from the operations in Cambodia,
with the commanders trying to make work for the soldiers (01:25:43:00)
o Eventually, the old G-2 left and a new colonel came in to take over the position;
however, the colonel had the personality that he was better than the junior officers
and they should not talk to him (01:25:51:00)
o Kloet had not talked too much with the other G-2s he had served with except to
brief them on what his section was doing but the new G-2 (01:26:12:00)
Eventually, Kloet’s company commander came down to warn Kloet about
confronting the new G-2; instead, Kloet watched for a month period as the
G-2 took the helicopter he shared with the G-3, the colonel in-charge of
operations, and left (01:27:07:00)
�
One day, the G-3 came into the TAC where Kloet was, asking if
anyone knew where the G-2 was because he needed to use the
helicopter (01:28:27:00)
o One of the soldiers in the room had been screwed over by
the G-2 and although he knew where the G-2 was, when
asked, the soldier said he did not know (01:28:47:00)
o When the G-2 came back with the helicopter, he was barred
from ever using it again and instead had to go to the
division headquarters and ask permission to take out a
helicopter (01:29:14:00)
Because he occasionally briefed the division commander, Kloet
could talk with the soldier in-charge of allotments for helicopters
and the two became friendly to the point that the soldier would
willing grant Kloet use of a helicopter whenever Kloet needed to
go out to one of the brigade headquarters (01:30:28:00)
One time, the G-2 went to get a helicopter and managed to get an
armed observation helicopter (01:30:57:00)
o The G-2 was a short man and as he was climbing into the
helicopter, he grabbed the handle of a machine gun but
accidentally grabbed the trigger and shot a round through
his foot (01:31:39:00)
As much as his commanders would allow, Kloet would travel out to the different bases,
including once going on a reconnaissance mission (01:32:27:00)
o One thing Kloet liked about the Cav. was that none of the soldiers had to pretend
that they were perfect; all the soldiers could give their all to their jobs because
even though they were going to make mistakes, as long as the soldiers did not
make mistakes that got other soldiers killed, it was acceptable (01:32:36:00)
o One day, Kloet asked the G-2 how helicopters pilots could see a group of Viet
Cong walking down a trail when the pilots were flying past (01:33:05:00)
Kloet did not realize it but the colonel had arranged for Kloet to go on a
reconnaissance mission with a “Pink Team”, which was a Little Bird
helicopter with Cobra gunships for coverage (01:34:02:00)
Kloet was ordered to pick up a weapon and report to a nearby unit, the 1st
of the 9th (01:34:35:00)
During the flight, Kloet was in the left seat of the helicopter with an M-16
but because he is left-handed, firing the rifle out of window was awkward
for him (01:34:51:00)
Once they left the 1st of the 9th, the trio of helicopters flew south, with both
Cobras above the Little Bird (01:35:18:00)
All of the sudden, the Little Bird began to dive, eventually ending up
below the tree line; Kloet then realized how the pilots were able to see
enemy soldiers, because the helicopters was flying only ten or so feet off
of the ground (01:35:28:00)
As the Little Bird is flying, the helicopter crew chief is sticking explosives
into used ordinance and dropping it out the side of the helicopter;
�
meanwhile, the pilot is talking with Kloet through headphones, which
caused him to loss his concentration (01:36:03:00)
All of the sudden, the pilot swore and an explosion from one of the
ordinances pushed the helicopter forward (01:36:50:00)
o Apart from the reconnaissance mission, Kloet would also fly to the different bases
in the area; as well, he once acted as a liaison with the 1st Infantry Division to
coordinate intelligence sharing (01:37:17:00)
While working as the liaison officer, Kloet saw that his own intelligence unit was much
better than that of the 1st Infantry because his unit was better organized in the sense that
the 1st Infantry either placed too much responsibility on the younger, less experienced
soldiers or not enough responsibility (01:37:42:00)
o Kloet viewed his unit as having a nice mix of senior supervision, including a
couple of officers who rotated in and a couple of senior of NCOs (01:38:10:00)
The problem with the original lieutenant Kloet had was the lieutenant did
not try and Kloet did not have time to take the lieutenant under his wing
and teach him everything that needed to be done (01:39:11:00)
o When Kloet first joined the Air Cav., he developed a plan with a small group of
other soldiers as to what would be a good mix for the unit before talking with the
G-2, who gave his approval to the plan (01:40:01:00)
When Kloet first arrived at the Air Cav., the G-2 who was in the unit was a short-timer,
so Kloet did not interact with him and the colonel who replaced the outgoing G-2 did not
last long because the colonel was not “Cav-standard” (01:40:53:00)
o One time, during the daily five o’clock briefing given by the G-2, the colonel had
briefing cards with him and as he would reading each card, he would use a pointer
in his other hand to point out the location on a board (01:41:17:00)
Kloet was standing near the entrance to the tent and the division’s
commander officer was seated in front of the colonel along with his chief
of staff and the division G-3 (01:42:04:00)
The board the colonel was using was also used by the G-3, which placed
all the units in their areas along with their statuses and what their
operations were; however, as the G-2’s pointer moved down the board, it
pulled out all the push-pins that the G-3 had used (01:42:34:00)
Kloet looked at the G-3 and saw the G-3 was incensed; although Kloet
does not know exactly what happened after that, the G-2 was eventually
transferred from the unit (01:43:11:00)
After the G-2 departed came another colonel who had served in the cavalry already and
was a straightforward soldier who wanted the soldiers to tell it like it was (01:43:42:00)
o The general staff would normally eat together, often with better accoutrements
than that of the regular soldiers (01:44:16:00)
o One day, the G-2 sent someone to get Kloet with orders for an overlay of all the
enemy infiltration corridors in the division’s area of operations, which was a
major project (01:44:41:00)
The project involved splicing together sheets of acetate in order to cover
an entire wall then placing pieces of different colored tape to represent the
different infiltration corridors (01:45:19:00)
�
Once the soldiers finished, they rolled the entire project up and placed it
behind the G-2’s desk in his office (01:45:52:00)
A couple of weeks later, the soldiers came to Kloet saying that they were
running out of the acetate, which they used to make overlays on individual
units’ areas of operation and everything that was going on within that
specific area (01:46:10:00)
The soldiers asked permission to get back the project they had made fro
the G-2 because it was a lot of acetate, so Kloet walked to the G-2’s office
and asked the colonel if they could get the project because they were
running low on acetate (01:46:32:00)
The colonel confessed that he could not remember why the roll of
acetate was there (01:46:57:00)
In early 1970, the Air Cav. was running interdiction operations in war zone three because
the enemy was running from Cambodia, through what was labeled as the “elephant
sphere” and into the southern area (01:47:27:00)
o The Americans placed bases in order to stop the movement of enemy soldiers and
the enemy wanted to destroy those bases (01:48:01:00)
o One time, Kloet and some other soldiers were listening on the radio as the
division talked with a battalion about enemy activity when the enemy began
lobbing 122 mm mortars onto the base; because it was hot, the G-2 had been lying
on top of the battalion command bunker when a mortar round landed nearby and
took off one of his legs and one of his arms (01:48:05:00)
The enemy charged the base although a lot of them did not have any
weapons; the enemy would drug their soldiers in order to get them to
attack without weapons (01:48:50:00)
o Over time, the fighting intensified and once the Cav. came back from Cambodia,
Kloet and his soldiers were asked to make studies using captured enemy
weaponry and equipment (01:49:23:00)
At some points in the tour, Kloet became very out-of-shape because all he did was sleep,
ride in a jeep up to his job, sit in a chair, and walk only short distances (01:50:08:00)
Post-third Tour / The Phoenix Program (01:50:48:00)
Kloet ended his third tour in 1970 and headed towards the “career course”, a captain level
course to train the captains in how to be a company commander and do more complicated
intelligence functions at Fort Holabird in Baltimore, Maryland (01:50:48:00)
o Kloet spent time in the career course, which Kloet believed precluded an
assignment back to Fort Bragg; however, when Kloet officially received the
assignment to Fort Bragg, he scoffed at it and requested assignment back to
Vietnam as part of the Phoenix Program (01:51:21:00)
Kloet had previously served at Fort Bragg as a headquarters company commander, which
involved, amongst other things, organizing the motor pool and billets for all the soldiers
in the headquarters (01:52:22:00)
o However, the headquarters company was drained due to the war, so when he
came into the unit, Kloet was the senior company grade officer in the entire
battalion; the only people higher ranking than Kloet were a major, who was the
�o
o
o
o
o
battalion XO and the battalion commander, while the personnel officer was a
lieutenant (01:53:08:00)
When he arrived, the first thing Kloet had to do was an inventory for the unit and
when he first opened the desk in his office, he found a draw full of half-empty
bottles of Maalox (01:54:01:00)
After he arrived, Kloet received his orders from the battalion commander and
although there were orders of what Kloet needed to do, there was no mention of
where he could get soldiers to do it; however, the commander told Kloet to just
use everyone in the headquarters (01:54:36:00)
Once inventory was finished, Kloet asked if he and the company first sergeant
were responsible for making sure every soldier kept his sleeping area in order;
instead, Kloet suggested using a group of NCOs to monitor the soldiers’ living
quarters (01:55:16:00)
Although the battalion commander accepted the idea, the NCOs who
received the assignment grumbled and disagreed with it; the NCOs had
often already served in Vietnam and were nearing the ends of their
enlistments (01:56:18:00)
After the living quarters were organized, Kloet needed to organize the motor pool,
so he suggested developing a list of all non-critical personnel (E-5 and below) and
they would work in the motor pool doing vehicle inspections (01:57:28:00)
Eventually, one of the sergeants came up and told Kloet that the soldiers in
the motor pool were working for the maintenance officer, so Kloet sent
another sergeant to supervise the activity in the motor pool (01:57:56:00)
However, the maintenance officer complained to the battalion S-4, who in
turn, went to a higher ranking officer instead of Kloet (01:58:48:00)
Kloet went into the hospital the day after Christmas, 1968 with what the doctors
believed to be dengue fever, although there were no reported cases of dingy fever
in the entire country (01:59:56:00)
Kloet went into the hospital for two weeks and when he returned to his
unit, the battalion commander had left and his supply sergeant had rotated
to Germany; however, Kloet had to do another inventory for the unit, so
he received another sergeant to be the supply sergeant (02:00:14:00)
The sergeant started to do the inventory but returned to Kloet and
explained that items were missing (02:00:58:00)
When Kloet asked how long it would take to fix everything, the
sergeant said he could take care of it because he had “connections”
with other soldiers (02:01:11:00)
The battalion commander warned Kloet against using soldiers from
other units to take care of the problems but the new supply
sergeant had friends in a basic training unit and was able to get
soldiers to help with the inventory (02:01:40:00)
Part of the reason soldiers wanted to work for Kloet was because
they received a meal from Kloet’s mess hall, which was very well
organized: Kloet had been a mess officer in Germany and he knew
how to make sure a mess hall ran properly (02:02:15:00)
�
The supply sergeant squared everything away for the inventory and
the unit ended up with only six items missing, all OD watches, and
the reason they were missing was the previous supply sergeant had
used them as trade items (02:02:45:00)
While the inventory was going on, Kloet filed paperwork for reassignment to Vietnam and although the battalion commander could not
stop him from going, he delayed Kloet by saying Kloet needed to do an
investigation into the missing watches (02:03:38:00)
After the investigation was complete, it went up the chain of
command and over to Germany, where the old supply sergeant had
to pay for all six watches (02:03:59:00)
Kloet first went to Fort Bragg in 1966 and joined a unit preparing to deploy to Vietnam,
although few of the officers or enlisted men knew exactly what they were going to be
getting into (02:04:18:00)
o Then, when he came back from his tour, Kloet went back to Fort Bragg before
going back to Vietnam for his second tour (02:04:54:00)
o Before Kloet rotated from Vietnam for his second tour, he received an assignment
back to Fort Bragg (02:06:03:00)
Between August 1970 and September 1971, Kloet attended two different schools, the
career course and a MASA (Military Assistance Security Advisory) course (02:06:00:00)
o The career course consisted of teaching intelligence officers how to be captains
while maintain their intelligence skill and the MASA course trained Kloet to take
part in the Phoenix program (02:06:43:00)
During the MASA course, courses included Vietnamese language classes,
how to organize reports, etc. (02:07:01:00)
The Phoenix program was a program designed to neutralize the communist infrastructure
within Vietnam and consisted of both district- and province-sized committees made up of
police and American advisors, although originally, the advisors were CIA operatives and
Special Forces officers (02:07:28:00)
o The committee’s jobs were to coordinate with any other organization in that area,
such as the census or grievance bureaus, that might have information on Viet
Cong routes, villages, or communist individuals, with the intention of neutralizing
these threats (02:08:20:00)
o In Kloet’s case, he was at the district level and had the assignment of gathering all
the gathered intelligence and placing it into a single report, named the “Big Mac”,
which listed all the communist villages and what was the status of the Viet Cong
infrastructure (02:08:48:00)
Kloet also scheduled operations to maintain what was known as “the black
book”, which were files and dossiers kept on a suspected person
(02:09:22:00)
Once the committees had enough vetted, reliable information
within one dossier, the person went onto the black list and if more
reliable information came in, then the soldiers could conduct an
operation to neutralize the person (02:09:53:00)
Ideally, the soldiers would neutralize a threat by arresting the
suspected person (02:10:38:00)
�
In Kloet’s committee, his Vietnamese counterpart was part of the
Vietnamese special police (akin to the American FBI) and he warned
Kloet when he first arrived that Kloet would not be able to get any
operations within the sector (02:10:48:00)
The provincial leader was a military commander and there were
leaks within the commander’s staff; if any operation was launched,
then Kloet would not find anything (02:11:53:00)
During the training, Kloet and the others were warned that this
might happen (02:12:14:00)
In order to effectively perform operations, the soldiers needed the
assistance of the Vietnamese government, which was the military,
and in Kloet’s case, his province was on the VietnameseCambodian border (02:12:19:00)
o The consensus amongst the Americans within the province
was that the provincial leader was play both sides against
one another (02:12:43:00)
Kloet recognized this when his first interpreters was
the son-in-law of the provincial leader and turned
out to be a snitch, telling the leader everything
Kloet and the others worked on (02:13:04:00)
Kloet removed the interpreter and this caused a rift
with the provincial leader (02:13:46:00)
o Over time, Kloet and the others were getting more
neutralizations by way of killing the suspect as opposed to
arresting them (02:14:00:00)
o The soldiers were conducting operations within the villages
and at night, there were explosions where the soldiers had
set up ambushes for the enemy; after the ambushes, the
soldiers would find intelligence on the enemy that Kloet
and the others used (02:14:34:00)
o One time, Kloet went to a district near where he had served with the 1st Air Cav.
because soldiers had killed five suspected enemy personnel (02:15:04:00)
Originally, pictures were taken of dead Viet Cong or communists as
verification; however, headquarters found out that in some cases, the
“enemy” were paid to act dead, so Kloet was told he needed to verify any
suspected enemy KIA (02:15:39:00)
When he traveled to the district, Kloet could not arrive early in the
morning because the district was covered in fog, so that when he did
arrive, the bodies had been laying out in the sun (02:16:40:00)
o The Vietnamese were the ones conducting operations and ambushes against the
enemy, not Americans (02:17:56:00)
Kloet only spent about six months working in the Phoenix Program because when the
Easter offensive began in Spring 1972, all hell broke loose (02:18:50:00)
o Most of the fighting during the offensive took place in a province next to where
Kloet was stationed but the enemy still managed to cut the roads leading out of
Kloet’s province, which meant no supplies could come in (02:19:03:00)
�o As well, the S-2 in Kloet’s unit had left and Kloet had to also fill that role
(02:19:13:00)
o Prior the offensive, Kloet’s unit received regular intelligence unrelated to the
Phoenix program that said enemy tanks were to the north, just across the
Cambodian border (02:19:33:00)
A lieutenant who was part of the Phoenix program was in the area and
Kloet told the lieutenant that he needed to verify the intelligence; the
lieutenant tried to find intelligence on the tanks and found nothing but the
following day, the enemy offensive began, with tanks rolling into the
neighboring province (02:19:48:00)
The enemy used a nearby bridge over the Song Be river to run tanks, so
Kloet’s unit organized an air strike to destroy the bridge (02:20:22:00)
o Once the offensive began, Kloet’s attention shifted to more military-centered
work and keeping an eye on what was happening in the neighboring province; the
work continued through April, May, and June and in July, the enemy pulled back
due to the large amount of damage they had taken (02:21:01:00)
However, as the enemy pulled back, they sent a unit to attack a district in
Kloet’s province and managed to cut the road; some of the Vietnamese
asked permission to retreat to Saigon but a CIA officer in Bien Hoa told
Kloet not to allow it (02:21:54:00)
Kloet’s interpreter told Kloet that the Vietnamese were planning to
kill Kloet if he did not let them leave; Kloet reported this to his
superior and his superior went to the Vietnamese leaders, saying
that if they heard another word, the Vietnamese were going into
the jail (02:22:52:00)
During the first part of the attack, the enemy bombarded Kloet’s area with
152 mm artillery and RPGs, so Kloet had to go out with a jeep and do
crater analysis, both to determine what exactly the enemy were shelling
them with and where the shellings were coming from (02:23:33:00)
Once Kloet plotted the artillery’s location, he told the provincial
chief, who said he would send some soldiers out; the Vietnamese
soldiers did go out and found the artillery were Kloet said it would
be but there was roughly a battalion-sized force of enemy soldiers
guarding it (02:24:47:00)
o During offensive, a friend of Kloet had been stationed in the province where the
bulk of the fighting occurred (02:25:34:00)
o By July 1st, 1972, there was talk of reducing the size of Kloet’s unit, so the unit
was moved out of the bunkers that the Army had built a couple of years earlier
and into a couple of civilian trailers (02:26:22:00)
Kloet shared a trailer with a retired New York City cop and on the night of
July 1st, when the enemy fired RPGs into the unit’s compound, the cop
went crazy, grabbing a M-3 “grease gun” (02:26:51:00)
Kloet managed to get the cop into a nearby bunker and because he had
been in Vietnam for four years, Kloet knew what to do, so he took his time
and did everything right (02:27:43:00)
�
In the morning, Kloet went out to do his crater analysis, which involved
measure which directions each round came from; where all the lines
intersected was where the enemy artillery was located (02:28:13:00)
Eventually, the Army managed to clear the road out of the district and the
unit left via an armed convoy (02:28:49:00)
o When the offensive began, the Vietnamese soldiers in the province left their
equipment behind as well as some Montagnard tribesmen who were fighting with
them (02:29:19:00)
Eventually, Kloet went with a CIA-owned Air America helicopter and
watched as a C-130 Spectre gunship destroyed the left-behind artillery and
ammunition dumps (02:29:34:00)
The Montagnards eventually made it through the jungle and were sent into
an old Air Cav. base (02:29:55:00)
o During the operation to clear the road, there were endless craters on both sides of
the road from Air Force bombings, with very few buildings left standing, except
for a pagoda that the Vietnamese then considered haunted (02:30:08:00)
The Air Force was still dropping bombs as the soldiers advanced down the
road, so the soldiers would occasionally stand underneath the awnings of
any remaining buildings (02:31:24:00)
o From their compound, Kloet and the other soldiers could see Nui Ba Ra¸ which
was a large nearby mountain with Vietnamese intercept facility on it and during
the offensive, the Vietnamese reported tanks near the facility (02:31:47:00)
Kloet’s commanding officer asked why he and the other soldiers were not
receiving that information from American sources and was told that he did
not have high enough clearance, which upset the colonel (02:32:12:00)
During the offensive, some of the soldiers with Kloet managed to capture
a couple of American-made APCs that the NVA had captured when the
American forces in the area abandoned them (02:32:48:00)
o After July 1st, a small Montagnard platoon occupied as small, triangular
compound constructed by the Americans just to the west of Kloet’s position and
the Montagnards defended that compound so fiercely that the enemy were not
able to overrun it (02:33:55:00)
When the offensive began in April, the Air Force talked with the soldiers and told them
what types of ordinance were available, including smaller versions of gas bombs used to
attack caves that had never been used in Vietnam (02:34:44:00)
o The Air Force also provided a transponder so that if things ever got dicey, the
soldiers could flip the switch, notifying the Air Force that they needed support
while simultaneously telling the Air Force exactly where the soldiers were
positioned (02:35:21:00)
o After July 1st, the soldiers turned on the transponder and the Air Force sent a
Spectre gunship, which was an awesome sight to see (02:35:42:00)
Instead of firing the heavy artillery aboard the aircraft, the crew mostly
fired 20 mm miniguns, which looked like a laser going from the aircraft to
the ground (02:35:55:00)
The Air Force also dropped a few of the gas bombs, which released a
heavy gas that over-pressurized and killed anyone in the gas (02:36:22:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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KloetR1071V2
Title
A name given to the resource
Kloet, Ronald (Interview outline and video, 2 of 3), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kloet, Ronald
Description
An account of the resource
In July 1969, Ron Kloet returned to Vietnam for a third tour of duty. During this tour, he served as part of the intelligence section for the 1st Air Cavalry Division in the Phuoc Long Province. While with the 1st Air Cav., Kloet took part in operations within neighboring Cambodia. Once his tour with the Air Cav. ended, Kloet's original orders called for him to go to a career course at Fort Bragg. However, recalling previous time spent at Fort Bragg, Kloet instead requested going back to Vietnam for a fourth tour, which he received. Therefore, after receiving training in another career course and in a MASA (Military Assistance Security Advisory) course, Kloet deployed to Vietnam for a fourth time. During the fourth tour, Kloet served as part of the Phoenix program, a joint Vietnamese-American effort to neutralize the Viet Cong and communists at a local level. Also during his time with the Phoenix program, Kloet took part in the NVA's 1972 Easter Offensive, which occurred in a neighboring province.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
United States. Air Force
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2011-02-24
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/562e7572edb4523c9c0f81f4cd113d77.mp4
1053e202b5dff44e094bfd5a1cab8efe
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33cf9c099bc4c698b5402b6ea53f9a9b.pdf
c0d59bfce82777e64cee93a44f8ef3bd
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Ron Kloet part 3
Vietnam War
Interview Length: (02:10:14:00)
Recap / Fourth Vietnam Tour (00:00:29:00)
Prior to deploying for his fourth tour, Kloet attended a captain’s officer course and after
completing that, rather than returning to Fort Bragg for re-assignment, Kloet decided he
wanted something else (00:00:29:00)
o Instead, Kloet decided to volunteer for the Phoenix Program, which, due to the
on-going Vietnamization efforts, had been changed to the Vietnamese name for
“phoenix”, Phung Hoang (00:01:00:00)
Once he joined the program, Kloet went to the Special Forces section of Fort Bragg for a
military advisor course to study how to work in a combined center with the Phung Hoang
program (00:01:22:00)
o The Phung Hoang program was targeted against the enemy infrastructure,
specifically individuals who were working for the Viet Cong (00:01:47:00)
o During the advisor training, Kloet learned how to properly interact with his
Vietnamese counterparts, how to acquire information and develop the information
into dossiers, and how to execute plans to neutralize the Viet Cong infrastructure
(00:02:01:00
o Although he had already in Vietnam for three previous tours, the Army also sent
Kloet to a Vietnamese language course (00:02:21:00)
The course was every morning and consisted of only a small group of
soldiers and an instructor going through each chapter of Vietnamese
vocabulary (00:02:30:00)
However, the Vietnamese vocabulary that the soldiers learned was strictly
related to the terms they would need to work with their Vietnamese
counter-parts in the Phung Hoang program (00:02:47:00)
After completing the advisor program at Fort Bragg and having a short leave, Kloet
deployed to Vietnam, arriving in Saigon, where he went through another orientation
course given by the civilian side of the MACV (Military Assistance Command Vietnam), which was what the Phoenix Program was under (00:03:13:00)
o During the orientation, Kloet and the other new members of the program were
told how exactly they were supposed to report information (00:03:39:00)
o Part of the course was also learning about one specific report, the Big MAC; all
the soldiers were given books that showed the infrastructure of the Viet Cong,
including where they were located, and Kloet took all the books with him when
he reported to his unit (00:04:19:00)
From Saigon, Kloet went to the Binh Son province and the III Corps, where he received
another orientation geared specifically for the region (00:04:39:00)
o Kloet originally went to the Phuoc Long province and was assigned to a district in
the south-east corner of the province, next to the neighboring II Corps area; once
�
in the district, Kloet went through additional training to prepare him to take over
for the departing Phoenix Program officer in the district (00:05:15:00)
o By the time Kloet arrived in Phouc Long, the 1st Air Cav. Division, which had
previously occupied the region, was gone (00:06:24:00)
o During this time, the Army was consolidating its presence within Vietnam, so
Kloet moved up to the province capital to replace an out-going major; this was the
first time Kloet was able to spend more than a day with the soldier he was sent to
replace, which meant Kloet could learn the ins and outs of the assignment and get
feed-back from the major on how things were going (00:06:41:00)
Once he finally took over for the major, the first thing Kloet discovered as that there was
nothing going on in the province; Kloet and his soldiers would consolidate what
information did come in into different reports (00:07:30:00)
o At the time, Kloet had a Vietnamese interpreter assigned to him to help with
Kloet’s Vietnamese counterpart, who spoke English but not the technical
terminology (00:08:03:00)
The Vietnamese counterpart was of both Vietnamese and Chinese descent,
thus making him less liked by pure, ethnic Vietnamese, who did not trust
people with mixed blood (00:08:19:00)
Kloet’s interpreter was the son-in-law of the provincial leader, a colonel
also of Vietnamese and Chinese ancestry (00:08:44:00)
Kloet’s Vietnamese counterpart was part of the South Vietnamese Special
Police, which was equivalent to the American FBI and he eventually told
Kloet that Kloet would never get anything done (00:09:18:00)
According to the counterpart, the military sector who controlled
the province for the provincial leader would not allow any
operations due to the operations being compromised (00:09:37:00)
Therefore, the only thing Kloet could do was work on different reports; as
well, Kloet got intelligence clearance for his entire team because the
previous intelligence officer had left and Kloet had received his job, which
meant Kloet was then also working on intelligence (00:10:10:00)
For the intelligence work, Kloet had a specialist assigned to the
group who took care of all the documentation (00:10:36:00)
When Kloet first arrived for the tour, his unit’s living quarters and other rooms were
housed in underground bunkers in the northern part of the compound (00:11:09:00)
o The living quarters were very secure because some years before, during the Tet
Offensive, the enemy had attacked the capital and destroyed everything, so Army
engineers came in and built the bunkers (00:11:36:00)
During the time when Kloet first arrived at the unit, the unit was
consolidating, moving down to a total of fifteen personnel (00:12:29:00)
o Kloet himself moved in with an advisor to the regular South Vietnamese street
police, a retired NYPD lieutenant (00:12:46:00)
o When he first arrived, Kloet went through a daily routine of sitting in committees
and going through paperwork, which was boring because Kloet had gone through
the necessary training and he wanted to see something happen (00:13:13:00)
While in training, Kloet had received warnings about the possibility of corruption
amongst the South Vietnamese (00:13:32:00)
�
o Kloet believes that the Americans were naïve in believing that all people were
good when in reality, nothing happened unless “the skids were greased”, a
situation common throughout the third world (00:13:35:00)
o Once, during Kloet’s second tour, a local Vietnamese leader wanted to sell rice
back to the Montagnards when the rice had been seized from the Viet Cong, who
had stolen the rice from the Montagnards in the first place (00:14:04:00)
When the unit’s S-2 eventually departed, Kloet took over those responsibilities as well,
so he was working two jobs, although there was very little going on (00:14:32:00)
o The majority of the people who Kloet dealt with were Montagnards, a simple
people who were more anti-Vietnamese then strictly anti-Communist because the
Vietnamese had treated them like dirt for centuries (00:14:52:00)
o Over time, Kloet and his personnel did the things that were necessary for their
assignment, although on occasion, there were some incidents where Kloet needed
to go out and verify the bodies of enemy soldiers (00:15:16:00)
One time, the Vietnamese PRU (Province Recon Unit) came into contact
with the enemy east of the province capital, so Kloet had to visit the
location with his two interpreters, one who had been assigned to Kloet
straight away and one Kloet gained when the S-2 departed (00:15:27:00)
Once at the location, Kloet had to take pictures of all the dead
bodies (00:16:14:00)
The PRU did not receive any payment unless the dead enemy were
verified to be Viet Cong (00:16:26:00)
Another time, there was an incident at another district headquarters where
soldiers had killed another five enemy (00:16:36:00)
By the time Kloet arrived to inspect the bodies, it was the middle
of the day and the bodies had been laying in the hot sun in a pile
since sun-up and they stunk (00:17:01:00)
The frustration of not being able to get anything done eventually caused Kloet to fire his
interpreter from the Phoenix Program because Kloet thought the interpreter was a snitch
for the enemy (00:17:23:00)
o Everything planning to be done eventually reached the interpreter’s father-in-law,
the provincial chief, and if the chief did not like it, then the plan did not go
forward (00:17:41:00)
The province chief was not openly supporting the Viet Cong but was
instead playing both sides, the Americans and the Viet Cong, against the
middle (00:18:12:00)
Because of the province’s proximity to Cambodia, there was also
politics involved in the decision-making; the province was far
enough away from Saigon that there was some political leeway
while there was also a strong presence of North Vietnamese and
Viet Cong coming in from Cambodia (00:18:18:00)
The government did not want to remove the province chief because
he managed to keep everything in the province in line
(00:18:49:00)
�
None of the Vietnamese who Kloet talked to particularly liked the
province chief nor did they trust him but the chief was in charge
and that was the way things went (00:19:05:00)
When Kloet fired the interpreter, it upset the province chief, which meant nothing go
done until the beginning of April 1972, when the North Vietnamese began their Easter
Offensive (00:19:10:00)
o When the offensive began, the enemy attacked in the next province over and
managed to cut the road from Kloet’s province to Saigon, which meant no food or
supplies were coming in (00:19:43:00)
o Once the offensive began, the province chief and his staff began arresting people
in the province who had possible Viet Cong or North Vietnamese Army
connections and throwing them in jail (00:20:09:00)
The prisoners were placed into holding areas that looked like chicken
coops (00:20:25:00)
o Eventually, Kloet received a phone call from the representative of the Pacification
Security Group for that particular area of III Corps asking on whose authority the
province chief and his staff had been using to arrest those people (00:20:54:00)
Kloet talked with his counterpart about the questions and the counterpart
showed Kloet a document; when Kloet asked if he could have one, the
counterpart said he could (00:21:43:00)
The document dated from 1968 and stated that the province chief
could arrest whomever he wanted (00:22:17:00)
The document had existed since 1968 but because of the US
Army’s rotation policy, the Americans had forgotten about it
(00:22:25:00)
o The province chief tended not to act on intelligence because he did not want to
stir up trouble with the enemy; instead, he padded his list of available suspects
and once the fight began, then he could make arrests (00:22:53:00)
o All the interrogations of the prisoners was handled by the South Vietnamese and
Kloet does not know how they did it because the South Vietnamese never brought
in Kloet or his men (00:23:12:00)
At the time, there was a South Vietnamese fire support base alongside a
highway to the south and all of the sudden, the police arrested the captain
in charge of the base and brought him back to the province capital but
Kloet never knew where the captain went (00:23:24:00)
The South Vietnamese police acted under the guise that the prisoners had
relatives in either the Viet Cong or North Vietnamese Army (00:24:05:00)
o In some ways, Kloet was happy that the offensive finally did come because it
offered him and his men the opportunity to do real work trying to find out what
was going to happen in their province (00:24:23:00)
Once the enemy cut the roads into the province, Kloet got more approvals
for operations, including a B-52 strike in the north (00:24:50:00)
During the offensive, Kloet received intel from the local intelligence unit about enemy
movements as well as the locations of enemy supply caches (00:25:08:00)
�
However, from his experience during his first tour, Kloet could tell that
must of the information was inaccurate and he had no way to substantiate
the intel (00:25:32:00)
After the Easter Offensive finished, someone from the Pacification
Security Group visited Kloet asking for targets for a group of defectors the
man was running who went out and attacked enemy targets (00:26:09:00)
Kloet decided to use the request as a test to substantiate the claims
made by the intelligence unit; it turned out that every single piece
of intelligence from the unit was bogus (00:26:52:00)
While still gathering intelligence for the other units, Kloet’s commanders also wanted
him to still file his month reports (00:27:27:00)
o The MAC report was an infrastructure report detail individual villages and
locations where the enemy was located, what was their strength, etc.; however,
there was no way to get all that information, so Kloet just submitted the
information from the previous month (00:27:37:00)
At the beginning of the Easter Offensive, there had been a South Vietnamese unit
stationed along the border but when the enemy began bringing in tanks, the unit retreated,
leaving the Montagnards behind (00:28:24:00)
o When the Montagnards eventually made it back, the province chief decided to
give them the old Air Cav. base, which was still standing (00:28:39:00)
On July 1st, all hell broke loose in Kloet’s province (00:28:53:00)
o The enemy had a 152mm artillery gun that was firing towards the capital; Kloet
had to do crater analysis, which was how they managed to find out the caliber of
the gun (00:29:03:00)
o Before the enemy managed to cut the road from the district headquarters to the
province capital, the Americans had issued M-72 LAWs (00:29:27:00)
o At one point, a single platoon defended a triangular position against an entire
enemy battalion (00:30:01:00)
o Eventually, the enemy attempted to take the mountain located next to the town,
where the South Vietnamese had a radio-intercept position (00:30:32:00)
Kloet’s South Vietnamese counter-part gave Kloet intelligence about
communications between North Vietnamese tanks; Kloet showed the
information to his commanding officer, who wondered why the American
intelligence could not tell that there were tanks out there (00:30:50:00)
The commanding officer, a colonel, asked up the chain-of-command about
why there was no intelligence from the Americans (00:31:23:00)
Before the offensive began, Kloet’s unit received an electronic box that
when turned out, sent out an electronic beacon, to be used in case the unit
was about to be overrun (00:31:32:00)
Once a unit turned on the beacon, the Air Force deployed a Spectre
gunship, an AC-130 mounted with Gatling guns (00:31:46:00)
As the fighting for the mountain continued, the Air Force continuously
launched air strikes against enemy positions along the side of the
mountain, making it so the enemy never managed to take the top of the
mountain (00:32:03:00)
�
o Although Air Force air strikes continued around the district capital, the road
leading into the town was still cut; after about a week of fighting, the Americans
mounted an armed convoy to retake the road and re-establish contact with the
district capital (00:32:20:00)
Kloet traveled with the convoy and watched as the Air Force continued
dropping bombs on enemy positions (00:32:43:00)
The ground around the district capital was all torn up with craters from
where the Air Force had dropped their bombs (00:33:09:00)
The airfield for the district capital had taken several mortar strikes and
Kloet was ordered to determine what caliber the mortar rounds were
(00:33:27:00)
While measuring the mortar strikes at the airfield, Kloet heard the
whistle of incoming mortar rounds, so he ran to a small shack that
served as the airfield’s control tower (00:33:43:00)
Flights did not come into the airfield every day because the Air
America re-supply flights landed on an old two-lane road near the
province capital (00:34:01:00)
When the mortar rounds started coming in, Kloet ran to a nearby
trench and hopped in, although the South Vietnamese had been
throwing their garbage in the trench (00:34:35:00)
From the district capital, the South Vietnamese took vehicles captured
from the North Vietnamese, all of which turned out to be American-made,
and towed them back to the province capital to display (00:35:05:00)
All the destruction done to the vehicles happened from South
Vietnamese soldiers armed with LAWs (00:35:43:00)
One of the vehicles had been hauling ammunition and when the
LAW round hit, it was like someone took a can opener to the side
of the vehicle (00:35:48:00)
o During the offensive, the regular South Vietnamese Army units assigned to
Kloet’s province actually fought in the neighboring province, which was where
the thrust of the enemy attack was; although the South Vietnamese forces fought
very well, there were two things that helped the South Vietnamese (00:36:16:00)
First, an American Air Cav. brigade from the 1st Air Cav. division was still
in the province and second, there was a tremendous amount of air power,
both from a Marine air wing and an Air Force air wing (00:36:51:00)
The fighting was still tough because the enemy attacked toward the capital
with tanks, who’s crews had been chained inside their tanks; the crews
were not stupid and they knew that driving tanks into cities was a bad
idea, especially if the enemy had anti-tank weapons (00:37:17:00)
In Kloet’s province, the Vietnamese forces divided into three groups: the regular South
Vietnamese army, which consisted of only South Vietnamese, and the Regional Forces
(RFs) and Popular Forces (PFs), which consisted of Montagnard soldiers (00:38:01:00)
o The PFs were used for local defense around the various villages and they fought
very well while the RFs were a mixture of both South Vietnamese and
Montagnard soldiers and were under the direct command of the sector
commanders, acting as a sort of Ready Reaction Force (00:38:14:00)
�
o From what Kloet saw, the South Vietnamese treated the Montagnards at a level
that the Vietnamese would treat a dog (00:39:13:00)
By the time Kloet’s tour wound down to an end in 1972, the situation had stabilized, with
the North Vietnamese having pulled back into Cambodia (00:40:41:00)
o In Kloet’s mind, had the United States continued to offer military support at a
level akin to that of 1972, the end of the war would have turned out differently for
South Vietnam (00:41:08:00)
o Kloet, and as he believes, many of the Vietnamese and other veterans, feels that
President Nixon and Secretary of State Kissinger sold out the soldiers in order to
get a deal passed that allowed the United States to get out of the conflict without
any more casualties; according to Kloet, had Nixon not jeopardized his political
standing with Watergate, the United States could have pulled out of the war while
still maintaining a high level of logistical support to South Vietnam (00:41:38:00)
The South Vietnamese forces had learned how to operation and how to
fight as how the Americans would (00:42:41:00)
Germany (00:43:43:00)
Once his tour finished in September 1972, to preclude having to go back to Fort Bragg,
Kloet took an ITT (Inter-Theater Transfer) test for Germany (00:43:43:00)
After completing the test, Kloet was assigned to the G-2 section for a headquarters in
Heidelberg, Germany; however, because his security clearance from 1966 had expired,
Kloet needed to get it updated (00:44:05:00)
o However, the Army did not want to wait for Kloet to get his security clearance, so
the Army amended his orders, sending him to the Third Infantry Division in
Wurzburg, where he was assigned to work as the surveillance officer in the G-2
(00:44:46:00)
The soldier commanding Kloet’s new unit was a major, eventually
promoted to colonel, while Kloet’s particular section consisted of himself
and two enlisted personnel, a lieutenant and master sergeant (00:45:17:00)
Because the division was operating in “peacetime”, Kloet’s section was
responsible for keeping the map library for the division, establishing map
policies, and establishing policies for using ground-surveillance equipment
within the division (00:45:55:00)
The section’s training consisted of going into the field with the rest of the
G-2 and setting up a desk inside the TOC (Tactical Operations Center) to
help with surveillance requests (00:46:44:00)
Kloet arrived at the division in November 1972 and the first thing he noticed was the
temperature was very cold (00:47:48:00)
o Kloet went to do the standard things necessary to be issued his field gear but
when he went, the supply unit did not have any of the equipment, so Kloet was
told to come back the following week (00:47:57:00)
o However, before Kloet could go back to get the gear, a field exercise was
scheduled, so the commanding officer told Kloet he could stay behind and
maintain the office, taking down incoming messages (00:48:14:00)
Halfway through the week, Kloet received a phone call from one of the
other officers in the G-2 saying that the colonel wanted to see Kloet;
�
however, Kloet stated that the only way he was going out was if he had
some field gear because there was snow outside (00:48:47:00)
Kloet managed to get some field gear although when he was going out to
the field, it was in an open-top jeep and Kloet was still cold, despite all the
clothing (00:49:19:00)
Once Kloet arrived at the G-2’s position, he waited and waited and waited,
until it was finally two or three in the morning before Kloet asked one of
the other officers what was going on (00:49:32:00)
Someone eventually went to ask the G-2 what Kloet needed to do because
he did not have a tent or any other equipment and Kloet was told just to go
back (00:50:16:00)
The experience with the G-2 during the exercise did not leave a
good taste in Kloet’s mouth (00:50:40:00)
Most of the time, Kloet’s new job was boring because the only time he really did
anything was in the field (00:50:45:00)
o Kloet had an additional duty, serving as part of a two-officer team who had the
responsibility of launching nuclear weapons if that time ever came (00:50:50:00)
During his career course, Kloet had received training on nuclear weapons,
such as which area to drop a bomb in order to receive the largest amount
of destruction, where not to drop bombs, the security of the bombs, what
their guard forces were, etc. (00:51:29:00)
Kloet did this job during the day with another officer who had been given
access (00:51:57:00)
o At one point, Kloet received an assignment to take photographs of the division’s
entire forward area of operations, running from the mountains on the division’s
right flank to the city on the division’s left flank (00:52:39:00)
It took several days, during which Kloet and an assistant took Kloet’s
personal vehicle and drove with camera equipment to the main areas,
moving from the left flank to the right flank (00:53:20:00)
The pictures were panoramic, so Kloet and his assistant had to climb hills
and mountains (00:53:44:00)
When Kloet finally came back with all the photographs, he took the
division’s “general defense plan” and some maps to equate each set of
images to a location on the map (00:54:06:00)
After organizing each panoramic with a map, Kloet took another picture of
both the map and the panoramic, which he then organized into a slide
show, first showing the picture of both the map and the panoramic then
just the panoramic (00:54:52:00)
Although Kloet had been promised reimbursement for all the money he
spent on gasoline and food, he never received anything (00:55:20:00)
In early May, the 3rd division underwent a review, where all the officers in the division
had to go to the division headquarters in Wurzburg to go through interviews with OfficerPersonnel (OP) officers (00:55:37:00)
o During the interview, the OP officer reviewed Kloet’s entire record and
commented on all the training Kloet had received (00:56:16:00)
�
o At the end of May, Kloet received word that the colonel wanted all the officers
serving in the G-2 to report to his office (00:57:26:00)
Once all the officers had gathered, the colonel individually handed out
letters, most of which were discharge orders (00:57:47:00)
The criteria for discharge was that if an officer had made captain
between January 1st, 1968 and June 30th, 1969, then he was
discharged (00:58:51:00)
After the colonel handed out the discharge letters, the only officer
left in the G-2 was a counter-intelligence officer who was Regular
Army (00:59:26:00)
After receiving their letters, Kloet and the other officers had ninety days
before their discharge papers became official (00:59:52:00)
Kloet and the other officers also received top priority when going
through out-processing, so Kloet decided to just go home, although
the G-2 tried to get Kloet to stay (01:00:23:00)
An issue Kloet had with the colonel in charge of the G-2 was that the colonel would order
maps from Kloet for every unit in the division, not just the division headquarters
(01:00:50:00)
o Kloet knew the S-2s in the various brigades in the division and they all laughed at
the colonel (01:01:21:00)
o It eventually reached the point that Kloet had an entire storage room in the
basement of the division headquarters just filled with maps for operations that
nobody ever used (01:02:03:00)
o Whenever the G-2 section went into the field as part of an exercise, Kloet had all
the maps the section would need already rolled up and separate so that all the
soldiers had to do was pick up the container, throw it into the back of the truck
and go; however, the colonel did not like this (01:02:18:00)
o When Kloet received his discharge orders and decided to go home immediately,
the colonel was bent out of shape, so Kloet never received the reimbursement for
the photography assignment and he had to go all the way to the Department of the
Army to receive the colonel’s final efficiency report for Kloet (01:02:47:00)
o At one point, instead of doing it himself, the colonel ordered Kloet to write a
letter of reprimand against the officer in-charge of the M-I (Military-Intelligence)
section of the G-2 (01:03:32:00)
o During another period, Kloet and his section spent four months working on a
report about ground radar, only for the report not to be published (01:04:01:00)
In those four months, Kloet gathered input from all the units who would
be using the radar and incorporated the useful information into the report;
however, the colonel did not accept some of the information, so Kloet had
to write back to some of the units and formally explain why he was not
using their information in the report (01:04:04:00)
Once he finished, Kloet put the entire report in the colonel’s in-out box
and left it there (01:05:07:00)
o One of the largest faults of the colonel was that in reaching that rank, he never
learned how to effectively communicate with subordinates (01:05:37:00)
�
At the time Kloet was in Germany, most of the lower-ranking officers, such as captains,
were combat veterans, including the M-I officers (01:06:16:00)
o Kloet himself was one of the first officers to go to a M-I specific officer training
course, in 1964; prior to 1964, M-I officers went to infantry training first and M-I
training second (01:06:40:00)
o On the other hand, the colonel had always served in military intelligence and to
Kloet, it seemed like the colonel was always trying to one-up someone else
(01:06:59:00)
One time, the colonel threw a large, very nice, Christmas party and of the
sixty-eight people invited, the only ones who showed up were the
colonel’s wife, an unfit sergeant-major, and the officers; the other sixty or
so soldiers had a choice of whether or not to show up (01:07:09:00)
The colonel was livid that none of the soldiers showed up but the colonel
never understood why (01:07:48:00)
After receiving his discharge, Kloet followed the colonel’s career and the
colonel eventually ended up at the DIA as an O-6 colonel (01:07:59:00)
When Kloet returned to the United States in June 1972, he went to Fort Meade, Maryland
to serve in the management office for the base (01:08:46:00)
o Kloet served under a major in the management office but the first thing the major
did when Kloet arrived was go to a training course in Miami (01:09:03:00)
o Kloet’s job was to gather any money collected the previous night from the various
officer and enlisted clubs, organize and document the money, then take it to the
management office (01:09:17:00)
Kloet also inspected the clubs, listened to any problems or complaints and
tried to fix the problems within the limit capacity he had (01:09:36:00)
Post-Active Duty Service (01:10:10:00)
Once Kloet finally left the Army, he went to graduate school at Michigan State
University to earn a master’s degree in history (01:10:10:00)
o The program was divided into two tracks, A and B, with the A tract consisting of
a thesis and intended for students going onto a doctorate; Kloet himself took the B
track because he had no intention of going on for a PhD (01:10:30:00)
o During the course, Kloet wrote roughly a paper a week while also taking classes
in historiography (01:10:44:00)
Kloet ended up paying a woman who was a typist to type up all of his
papers for him (01:11:06:00)
o The majority of Kloet’s involved Eastern Europe and Russia, including ancient
Russian history and Soviet history, along with classes about European and
American history (01:11:24:00)
o To fulfill his language requirements, Kloet took a Russian language refresher
course, which was a great experience because Kloet had not used the language
since 1965 (01:12:07:00)
Apart from the master’s degree in History, Kloet also got a teaching certificate, although
he now considers that to be a waste of his time (01:12:56:00)
o As part of the teaching certificate, Kloet did some student-teaching at a high
school in Warren, Michigan, where he taught a couple of World History courses
�o
o
o
o
o
o
o
and a Russian History course because of the large amount of people with Slavic
backgrounds living in Warren (01:13:16:00)
While teaching the Russian History course, Kloet contacted his professor at
Michigan State asking for a book recommendation to use as the text for the
students (01:13:56:00)
The World History classes did not actually have textbooks but rather, a
series of brochures (01:14:58:00)
While teaching the World History courses, Kloet decided to give the students a
mid-term exam, although the only thing he could do was lecture using the
brochures (01:15:24:00)
Most of the students in Kloet’s courses did not have any discipline (01:16:11:00)
After giving the mid-term exam, which Kloet comprised of multiple choice
questions taken verbatim from the texts, the highest grade was a 72% and the
lowest was in the thirties (01:16:35:00)
Kloet ended up taking the average of the scores and making it the highest
of the class and he still was only able to pass a couple more of the students
(01:17:03:00)
Kloet individually took each student into the hall to explain their grade
and what was going to be sent home, which caused many of the students
to become upset (01:17:13:00)
On the other hand, the Russian History course was good because the students
were motivated, Type-A people going to college (01:17:38:00)
Because the school did not approve of Kloet’s textbook selection, he had
to lecture for the most part, so in one weekend, Kloet outlined the entire
book (01:17:53:00)
One of the students wanted to do a paper on the Russian Orthodox Church
and one day, Kloet received a phone call that the mother of the student
wanted to talk with Kloet (01:18:36:00)
Kloet called the mother to see what the problem was and she said
that the student was consumed with working on the paper, doing
nothing else (01:19:26:00)
Apart from the student teaching, Kloet also had to take a courses at the Michigan
Department of Education on how to properly manage a classroom (01:20:24:00)
Kloet’s advisor, PhD candidate, had never actually taught in a classroom
while Kloet had taught while in the Army, which meant he knew how to
operate the equipment in a classroom, so the advisor said Kloet did not
have to take the course (01:20:41:00)
At different times, Kloet and the other students had to go to sessions where they
were supposed to “bare their souls to the others” (01:21:16:00)
Kloet was the oldest person in the group by far and he had had classes
with some of the other members, including a girl whose habits annoyed
Kloet (01:21:30:00)
As he closed in on finishing the teacher certification program, Kloet had to
go to a final interview with his advisor, where Kloet talked about the role
he played in the group seminars (01:22:15:00)
�
When the advisors asked about the role, Kloet explained that he
was older than all the other members and he did not see the benefit
of going over his own experiences (01:22:44:00)
After he neared the end of the history program at Michigan State and obtained his teacher
certification, Kloet went to the employment office at Michigan State and was told to what
to put down to create an effective resume (01:23:26:00)
o Kloet sent the resume out to ever school district he could find in the employment
office and although he obtained some interviews, by and large, Kloet received
rejection letters (01:23:57:00)
The common thread amongst the rejection letters was that Kloet had too
much experience and the school districts could not hire him; Kloet’s
experience as at the level of Master’s Degree +, which was too high for an
entry-level teaching position (01:24:22:00)
Kloet also looked at private schools and he thought he had found one
opening, at a military school, but the teacher who was planning to retire
decided not to retire (01:24:42:00)
After graduating, Kloet tried to substitute teach, which he did not like because the school
districts would call him early in the morning and on most occasions, there was never a
lesson plan that Kloet was supposed to follow for that day (01:25:05:00)
Eventually, Kloet decided to work on his active-duty position and began teaching
summers at the various Army schools, eventually going to the Command and General
Staff College for almost a year, where he eventually worked his way up to commandant
of the entire college (01:25:32:00)
o Although Kloet had retired, by teaching at the Army schools, he increased the
amount of time he had on active duty, with the intention of reaching twenty years
on active duty; when Kloet first started teaching at the Army schools, he had
fourteen years of active duty and slowly added onto that amount (01:26:10:00)
o Working at the Command and General Staff college was really good assignment
for Kloet (01:26:52:00)
o Kloet also worked at the 5th Army headquarters at Fort Sam Houston in San
Antonio, Texas (01:27:16:00)
o Overall, the best assignment Kloet had was when Kloet was the commander of the
intelligence school at Fort Sam Houston, where Kloet sent out various instructors
to different reserve units to give the reservists MOS qualifications (01:27:35:00)
From March 1983 until June 1995, Kloet worked as part of U.S. Army Foreign
Intelligence Activity (FIA), directing the Collection/Management division (01:28:34:00)
o When he joined the FIA, Kloet worked in the Collection/Management branch,
which involved organizing the collection of information, so that the intelligence
services would only gather the intelligence they needed to gather (01:29:20:00)
As part of this, there were collection plans listing what information needed
to be collected and how to collect it, based on a certain set of
requirements, such as geographic areas, technical areas, etc. (01:29:51:00)
Kloet’s Collection/Management Division was organized to go worldwide
coverage to collect human intelligence (HUMINT) (01:30:10:00)
�
“Worldwide” did not mean every country in the world but rather
focused on specific countries relative to the master HUMINT
collection plan, which was controlled by the CIA (01:30:23:00)
Apart from the Army FIA, there were also intelligence collection
units in the Navy, Air Force, and Marines, although Army
intelligence became the largest and most important of the units
(01:30:45:00)
o Army intelligence eventually became the only collection
unit to use actual operations, not just debriefings and overt
collections (01:30:53:00)
The other collection units had soldiers trained in
this and many of those individuals were eventually
absorbed into Army intelligence (01:31:29:00)
Apart from performing operations, Army intelligence also had
several detachments of overt de-briefers to work with foreign
personnel and technical personnel, such as American businessmen
and embassy employees (01:31:46:00)
Kloet’s section worked primarily with reporting on operations that
Army intelligence was performing (01:32:08:00)
Whenever a specific American group would request information on a
specific area, Army intelligence would submit a capabilities statement
outline what Army intelligence could do (01:32:49:00)
If a specific area or situation arose that would require long-term
observation, such as the Middle East, Russia or China, then Army
intelligence could develop a source (01:33:11:00)
The other side of collection/management was to publish the
information to came from the various operations (01:34:11:00)
o Kloet’s job was to sort through the information that came
through and organize it for publishing, as well as check to
make sure the initial questions that they were searching for
were answered (01:34:24:00)
o The period leading up to the first Gulf War was very intriguing, specifically the
conflict occurring between Iraq and Iran (01:35:56:00)
o Army intelligence was divided into branches, with a branch devoted to each of the
Army’s commands (01:35:44:00)
o The first Gulf War did not really change how Army intelligence operated
(01:36:39:00)
Operations tended to develop over time and as the processes were done
correctly, more information became available; if something happened to
change the progression, modifications might be needed but the personnel
in Army intelligence continued the operation regardless (01:36:51:00)
Kloet worked for Army intelligence until 1995 as a civilian employee, at which point his
unit was absorbed into a newly-formed organization; in large part, Kloet’s unit was
largely a victim of its own success (01:38:05:00)
�o At the time, the DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency) convinced members of
Congress that consolidation of all the intelligence services’ collection units under
one unit, the DIA, was more efficient and cost-effective (01:38:48:00)
o After the DIA made their suggestions, units across all the services were either
absorbed into the DIA or deactivated; part of the agreement was that all members
of the FIA would receive positions within the new organization (01:39:14:00)
o The new organization was labeled “Defense Human Service” and was technically
headed by an Army Brigadier General; the organization’s first commander was
Kloet’s former commanding officer when Kloet first joined the Air Cavalry in
Vietnam (01:39:40:00)
When the general saw what was happening within the new organization,
he told Kloet that he was going to try and leave because he did not like the
situation (01:40:07:00)
After the first general retired, another brigadier took command of the
organizations; however, because he still wanted to advance his career the
general began spending most of his time at the White House, acting as a
representative for the organization (01:40:23:00)
o Within the new organization, Kloet worked as a desk officer in the Eurasian
division, focusing specifically on the former Soviet Islamic republics in Central
Asia (01:41:01:00)
For the five countries, Kloet had one attaché while military representatives
covered the others (01:41:40:00)
The military representatives were often students trained at a former Soviet
military academy that specialized in training soldiers to work within the
Islamic republics (01:41:54:00)
Although there was no specific assignment for his section, the work was
still interesting for Kloet because he was able to meet people and because
he gained insight into why the situations within the five republics were not
working properly (01:42:22:00)
Kloet’s job involved gathering information from each source about the
situation within a specific republic and there were several ways of
communicating back and forth (01:42:51:00)
There was the traditional encrypted communications but in one
case, the counter-part in one of the republics would not bother
encrypting the report (01:43:01:00)
Whenever a military advisor was scheduled to go to one of the
republics, they would first talk with Kloet to become oriented with
the area (01:43:42:00)
The biggest problem Kloet ran into was logistically supporting all
the representatives, although there was an entirely separate section
within the organization for logistics (01:44:26:00)
o However, the logistics section had to take care of logistics
for representatives from all over the world, not just Kloet’s
(01:45:01:00)
o When Kloet first joined the organization, he checked what was needed so he
could eventually get out, so he talked with the woman in charge of retirements,
�
who said that although Kloet could retire at sixty, he did not have a large amount
of civil service credit (01:45:51:00)
Kloet could get to the thirty years necessary if he converted some of his
active-duty military years, which entailed paying six percent of his base
salary for every year in the military that needed conversion, which totaled
13+ years (01:46:20:00)
Kloet paid for the years to be converted and that brought him up to the
years needed (01:47:18:00)
Eventually, it reached the point that the continuous rigors of the job, such
as waking up at 3:30 a.m. to get the train, took their toll on Kloet and he
decided to put in his retirement paperwork (01:47:36:00)
When discussing retirement, Kloet asked whether it mattered if he did not
fully reached thirty years and when the woman told him it would only cost
a dollar a month, Kloet decided to retire (01:49:07:00)
Once Kloet finally retired, he returned to Michigan to live in a house he had bought for
his mother in the 1960s, although his mother had passed away in 1992 (01:49:32:00)
o At the end of September 2001, Kloet received a phone call from a former
subordinate from Vietnam asking if Kloet wanted to come back to work; when
Kloet said he did, the soldier said Kloet need to update his clearance level
(01:49:57:00)
o After finishing the necessary paperwork, Kloet sent it back in and waited for a
reply; eventually, in March, he received a telephone call telling him that
everything was okay and he could begin working (01:50:38:00)
o Kloet needed a place to live near Washington, so he contacted a friend whose
wife was a real estate agent and she helped Kloet find a place (01:51:27:00)
o Once he got back to work, Kloet was working in counter-terrorist operations
group within the Defense HUMINT service (01:52:20:00)
Kloet enjoyed doing the work because it gave him an opportunity to teach
younger soldiers (01:53:37:00)
Kloet’s section was led by a Navy Commander and she did not like the job
because it was somewhat out of her comfort zone (01:53:50:00)
Pacific Command was Kloet’s area of interest and he eventually became
involved in writing reports for the DIA to act in countries where the
analysts thought there were credible operations (01:54:22:00)
This was the first time that Kloet saw the politics that went into the
operations and he saw the large number of successful operations that went
unnoticed (01:54:54:00)
o Although he enjoyed doing the job, Kloet did not actually make any money
because of the expenses that he incurred (01:56:12:00)
o Once the time came for Kloet to extend his contract, the DIA fooled around with
it and Kloet decided to just go home (01:56:59:00)
o The only downside of doing the work was Kloet had to interact with analysts at
the CIA and they often made it so they were the center of everything that was
happening and would fight with Kloet tooth and nail (01:57:07:00)
�
o At one point, the chief CIA analyst wanted a meeting with the DIA analyst and
based on his previous work experience with the CIA, Kloet ventured a guess as to
what type of person the analyst was (01:58:20:00)
Sure enough, when the meeting happened, the chief was a bureaucrat and
it was because of him that the majority of the work Kloet and the others
did was met with opposition (01:58:31:00)
In Kloet’s mind, one of the positives to come out of the 9/11 attacks was the
establishment of the Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) (01:59:33:00)
o Prior to the attacks, there was a large amount of cooperation amongst the various
intelligence agencies at the ground level; problems developed around the
bureaucrats, each of whom had vested interests in maintaining their authority
(01:59:56:00)
Whenever there were conflicts, it was often agency versus agency, never
individual versus individual (02:00:20:00)
o In a macro sense, Kloet believes that the NIO (National Intelligence Office) was
very difficult to control without controlling the agency’s budget and he believes
the CIA still trying to hold onto its position as the top dog of all the American
intelligence agencies (02:00:56:00)
From Kloet’s perspective, it has reached the point that regardless of what
the situation is, it will always be resolved how the CIA wants it to be
resolved (02:01:47:00)
The dominance of the CIA amongst the intelligence agencies has led to a
reduction in the multiplicity of sources; the CIA has fought tooth and nail
since the formation of the different service intelligence units because the
CIA wanted to control everything (02:02:27:00)
o When President Bush wanted to reorganize and expand the TSA (Transportation
Safety Administration), he wanted to hire outside contractors until enough
personnel were trained; however, the bureaucrats in charge of the intelligence
agencies forced him to take personnel from the current ranks of the agencies, so
Kloet knows people who advanced several ranks by doing so (02:03:54:00)
o At the local level, there is mutual cooperation between the different organizations;
it is with the higher-ranking bureaucrats where the problems begin to arise
(02:06:16:00)
Looking back on his career, when he first joined the service, Kloet enjoyed it because he
was young and his brain was full of the stories his uncles had told him about serving in
World War II (02:07:09:00)
o When he first enlisted, Kloet’s goal was to eventually be an officer, although he
was not sure about make the military a career (02:07:41:00)
o Being placed in the Air Force signals intelligence was enjoyable for Kloet and it
pushed him towards going to college for degrees in Russian language and
literature (02:07:54:00)
o After completing his degrees, Kloet realized that his chances of finding a job as a
civilian were small, so he began looking at working for different government
agencies (02:08:23:00)
�o Kloet always wanted a career in the military, just never a career in a specific field
in the military; although he enjoyed the intelligence work, Kloet also enjoyed just
being busy (02:09:03:00)
o Kloet would serve again, although he would make some changes, such as keeping
his mouth shut a little bit more because he irritated some people (02:09:58:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
KloetR1071V3
Title
A name given to the resource
Kloet, Ronald (Interview outline and video, 3 of 3), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kloet, Ronald
Description
An account of the resource
Prior to beginning his fourth tour in Vietnam, Ron Kloet initially went through officers training with the Army intending to give him an assignment at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Kloet, wanting something else, instead volunteered to serve in the Phoenix program, a specialized program in Vietnam. After finished the fourth tour, Kloet transferred from Vietnam to Germany to work as an intelligence officer. Following his tour in Germany, Kloet's military service ended and he attended Michigan State University, attaining master degrees in Russian history and Russian literature. However, Kloet found his work at graduation unsatisfying, so he began working to complete enough active-duty service time to retire with a pension. Eventually, Kloet began working for the U.S. Army Foreign Intelligence Activity (FIA) as a civilian employee. In 1995, the FIA and other intelligence agencies reorganized and Kloet, not liking his new roll, eventually retired. Then, in Sept. 2001, he received a phone call from a former colleague asking Kloet to return to work. Kloet did return for six months before retiring for good.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
United States. Air Force
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-02-24
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ed3f0bf024859d20c665e3f8ede83f8.jpg
3f5bb462de64e52ba1a57151fbd5ecdc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Faces of Grand Valley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
University Communications
Description
An account of the resource
A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1960s - 1990s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copryight
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
College administrators
College teachers
Colleges and universities -- Faculty
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GV012-03
Format
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image/jpeg
Type
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Image
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
KlomerKay
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. University Communications
Title
A name given to the resource
Klomer, Kay
Description
An account of the resource
Kay Klomer
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University – History
College teachers
Universities and colleges – Faculty
Michigan
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78707961d3dc4f133b4ab87a3825cfa9.m4v
1cb2c534c22a43348483e25cb6e025ab
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cee18bd22ed62733710bd96a18d6ad76.pdf
7e5380deaa535f7d22c63b1888ee71fa
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Donald Klooster
World War II
41 minutes 51 seconds
(00:00:20) Early Life
-Born in Munster Indiana
-Attended grade school at Munster Christian School.
-Drafted in 1943 at age 18.
-Served for three years.
-After the War graduated from Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, after a half year.
-Father worked to sell produce in Hammond Indiana.
-Maintained work through the Great Depression.
-Siblings consisted of three brothers and a sister.
-Older brother, Fred, became minister teaching at Calvin seminary.
-Deferred from military service due to being a minister.
-Brother Jerry became a medical doctor.
-Younger by two years.
-Served in Navy out of Chicago.
-In his youth hadn’t kept track of news about the War.
-Worked on family farm in his youth, driving produce to Chicago.
-Jim: younger brother by 2~6 years.
-Served in the military post WWII with no combat encountered.
-Sister: the youngest sibling, worked at home.
-Graduated high school in 1942.
-Remembers learning of the news from Pearl Harbor.
(00:05:15) Drafted into Service
-Drafted on March 18th 1943.
-Sent to Camp Atterbury, Indiana for basic training.
-Encountered a friend from home as they began training.
-No prior experience with guns.
-Discipline took a little getting used to.
-One humorous example: promoted to Private First Class but quickly demoted for
resisting guard duty.
-Eventually returned to PFC status.
-Basic training lasted around 8-10 weeks.
-Volunteered for Airborne.
-Sent to Fort Benning Georgia for parachute training.
-Training: jumping from gradually increasing height.
-Highly meticulous preparation of the parachute into the mechanism.
-Women’s Army Corps members also on hand to pack and prepare parachutes.
-Being part of the paratroopers qualified for extra pay, $4 more a month. [I think this is what
they’re saying but it’s hard to hear]
�-Training: running for several miles at a time.
(00:10:00)
-Training highly focused on the care and preparation of the parachutes.
-Went on four training jumps.
-Followed by a 14 day furlough, after which preparation began to ship out.
-No knowledge that anyone was injured during training.
-One bad experience: stepped out of plane in training jump a wrong way which led to him
spinning as he fell.
-Airborne training lasted around two months.
-During airborne training was assigned to Headquarters Company, 503rd Parachute Infantry
Regiment.
-After training had no information yet whether they would go to Europe or Pacific.
(00:14:15) the Philippines and Invasion of Corregidor
-Sent to the Philippines.
-Plane landed on Negros Island.
-Uncertain but believes they were likely flown directly from Georgia.
-Prior to the Philippines, made a brief stop in New Guinea.
-Philippines invaded in late 1944.
-First stop Mindoro Island.
-Did more training, including shooting, at the base on Mindoro.
-Didn’t follow news of the War in depth, but knew generally the US was doing well.
-Invasion of Corregidor.
-February 1945 combat jump in Corregidor.
-Island layout was a “sniper’s paradise”.
-Heavy use of tunnels made invasion difficult and costly in lives.
-Certain Japanese were using explosive rounds.
-Winds caused some paratroopers to land in the ocean.
-Suffered casualties amongst their unit.
(00:20:00)
-An explosive round nearby caused shrapnel damage to the shoulder.
-Received a bronze star with Philippines liberation ribbon.
-Japanese would come in waves out of the tunnels at Malinta hill.
-A tactic of the Japanese: at night threw rocks the size of grenades interspersed with occasional
live grenades.
-February 21st, a Lieutenant used a tank to fire directly into a Japanese tunnel.
-Ammo cache explosion caused a huge amount of destruction as massive debris injured
or killed allies as well as enemies.
-Encountered MacArthur as he arrived to the island.
-Not too impressed.
-Due to his shoulder injury he is sent home before the War ends.
-Arrive home summer of 1945.
-Discharged in January of 1946.
(00:27:30) Post War Life and Misc. Info
�-Later in Calvin College joined the Veterans Choir.
-Living conditions on the Islands were terrible.
-Ate rations, not cooked food.
-Received letters from his family at Philippines.
(00:30:00)
-Sold books after graduating from Calvin.
-Worked for Hekman Biscuit Company in Grand Rapids (later became Keebler).
-Then worked for a furniture company which was sold to Lazy Boy.
-Photographer insisted on taking his pictures as his War experience made him well known.
-After returning from Pacific, discharged from Camp Atterbury.
-Not part of any other social military organizations.
-Attended the Honor Flight in May 2015.
-War experiences overall:
-Scary and thankful it’s over.
-Seeing new places, particularly poverty helps appreciate good living standard.
-Speaking of native living conditions –didn’t encounter natives that he can recall. Mostly away
from villages.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_KloosterD1879V
Title
A name given to the resource
Klooster, Donald (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-18
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Klooster was born and raised in Munster, Indiana. He was drafted into the Army after turning 18 in March 1943. Donald attended basic training at Camp Atterbury Indiana. Afterward he moved onto Fort Benning Georgia for jump school and was assigned to Headquarters Company, 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment. His unit would be sent to the Philippines where they trained in flight jumps on Mindoro Island, and then jumped into combat for the invasion of Corregidor Island. When all was said and done he had encountered General MacArthur, survived Japanese grenade attacks as well as a tunnel cache explosion, and finally became wounded in combat from some explosive round shrapnel. He was awarded a bronze star with the Philippines liberation ribbon and sent home in the summer of 1945 due to his wound. After being discharged in 1946 he graduated from Calvin College and worked at a furniture company.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Klooster, Donald
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jones, Adam (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a61ec092a4eecb2b954b087eaef0d49e.mp4
02f3a6711f656dab552d73cbb52b612a
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Jim Kloosterman
(00:26:29)
(08:45) Introduction
• Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan 1946.
• Attended elementary school in Allendale and Coopersville High School.
(09:29) Enlistment
• Joined the United States Naval Reserve at seventeen years old.
• During his initial check up, the doctors found a cyst that would have prevented
him from joining the military. His parents paid for surgery.
• During Christmas break of his senior year of high school he attended training at
Great Lakes Naval Training for boot camp.
(10:27) Boot Camp
• Describes Boot Camp as “eye opening.”
• He remembers being treated like dirt by the commanding officers.
(11:48) Deployment
• Began his two years of active duty the January after he graduated from high
school.
• He went to Norfolk, Virginia at the naval base.
• He was then assigned to the aircraft carrier, USS Independence
• Kloosterman worked in the communications radio division.
• His ship was then deployed to Vietnam.
(12:23) Why he joined the Navy
• He joined the Navy to see the world.
• After his deployment to Vietnam, he was then sent to the Mediterranean Sea.
(12:41) Active Duty
• Describes his first days of active duty as confusing.
• His first choice was to work on an aircraft carrier.
(13:30) Aboard the USS Independence
• While on the ship, they sailed the South China Sea.
• The aircraft would fly missions off of the ship.
• He would communicate with other bases about missions while on the carrier.
• He also worked as a cryptographer on the ship.
• Flights of MIG’s attempted to attack the ship, but were turned away by the United
States aircraft.
• Several planes were lost during his time in Vietnam.
• His ship was awarded the Navy Unit Commendation for Merit us Service.
• He communicated with his family mainly through letters.
• Describes the food as fairly good.
• To entertain themselves, the men would play cards, read, or write letters.
• He would try to sight see as much as possible when on leave.
�Remembers taking a new man to the mess hall and vomiting when he saw the
men take a bite out of a cooked cockroach.
• The men would pull minor pranks, such as setting watches ahead to wake men up
earlier than they needed to, to help curb the boredom.
(20:48) Photographs
(21:24) Opinion of others he served with
• Most of his officers were decent people.
• He liked most of the men he served with.
(21:53) Discharge
• Stationed in the Mediterranean.
• He was transferred from one base to another before flying back to the United
States.
(22:18) Life After Service
• The first few days were like a vacation in order to become re acclimated to
civilian life
• Worked at Bell Telephone Co. after returning home.
• Remains very good friends with a couple of men he served with.
• He joined the VFW.
• He is still working in communications to this day.
• Describes his military experience as an overall positive experience.
• He also feels that his military experience made him grow up and mature quickly.
•
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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KloostermanJ
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Kloosterman, Jim (Interview outline and video), 2005
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Kloosterman, Jim
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Jim Kloosterman served in the US Navy in 1965 and 1966. He served as a radioman on the carrier USS Independence, spending much of his time decrypting Soviet radio traffic. During his tour, his ship saw action off the coast of Vietnam, and then served in the Mediterranean.
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Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Navy
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2005-02-01
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26d01b52dc93c1ede03af442eb9b194f.m4v
5376e47b68d39280d8f44548c5031923
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0c3c45d4403629824954a5649f9c12f4.pdf
292e19f0e51fbf84a5d2205d6cbf0db7
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Terry Knapp
(01:00:03)
Background (00:00)
Born in Carson City Hospital (01:00)
Father was a farmer (02:00)
His parents went into baking (03:15)
He had one brother and two sisters (03:30)
He played hide and seek as a child (05:20)
He played football and ran track in high school (06:00)
After graduating high school he worked on a line at Oldsmobile for about six weeks
(11:30)
Lived in Lansing (11:45)
Got married and moved back to the bakery (11:50)
Dad died in 1975 (12:45)
Military Experience (14:00)
Went to Fort Leonard Wood Missouri for basic training (14:35)
Fort Polk Louisiana for advanced training (14:40)
Married on April 27, 1967 (16:45)
Description of Vietnam: hot, smelled like rotten vegetation, there were leeches and the
troops had to take quinine tablets at every meal to avoid malaria (17:30)
During the Tet offensive, there were firefights nearly every other day (19:30)
Worked with Vietnamese during the day and fought them during the night (19:45)
Had to watch out for traps and ambushes (19:55)
�
He witnessed some individuals killed or wounded by traps (20:10)
Sometimes they were overrun and had to fight hand to hand combat (20:20)
He was offered the Purple Heart (22:30)
They would set up sentries around their perimeter to spot enemy patrols closing in on
them (23:10)
Three APCs that he rode on were destroyed or damaged while he was in Vietnam (24:30)
They had to wait for clearance, to determine no friendlies were in the area, before they
could spray it (24:55)
He was in charge of the radio on the command track, and he had to communicate with the
CO and other officers (26:00)
His unit suffered a lot of casualties (26:40)
When he first arrived in Vietnam the 11th Cavalry had a n entire troop wiped out (27:00)
He was a replacement (27:10)
Blaine Landers was killed after taking over his patrol (27:50)
That same night his unit lost six APCs to RPG fire (28:10)
They would normally set up trip flares and claymores around their position (29:00)
They would fight the Chinese that crossed over into Vietnam (29:40)
Long Distance Recon Patrol wore black beret and worked with Green beret units (30:50)
He was in a unit with tank and APC support (31:40)
He got out of the army in 1968 (35:20)
His unit once pursued a fleeing enemy unit but had to turn around because they had
crossed into Cambodia (36:00)
He was mostly out in the field except for about a month at base camp re-arming (38:00)
Flew to Hawaii on R&R (38:50)
He had two children, one son and one daughter who died at the age of thirty one from
breast cancer, but was survived by two children (39:40)
�
He was in Vietnam during Tet (40:40)
He will never forget his experience in Vietnam (41:30)
He suffered from post traumatic stress, a lot of soldiers did after fighting the war (45:20)
He had flash backs and still does occasionally (46:56)
His unit would pick up dead Vietnamese and return the bodies to their villages to be
buried (49:10)
In his opinion he did his duty and did it well (51:05)
After the war he returned to work at his family bakery (51:27)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
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The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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KnappT
Title
A name given to the resource
Knapp, Terry (Interview outline and video), 2006
Creator
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Knapp, Terry
Description
An account of the resource
Terry Knapp joined the army in 1967. He served in Vietnam with the 11th Calvary. His unit served during the Tet Offensive and suffered heavy casualties. He received a purple heart and was discharged at the end of 1968. After the war he returned to work at his family bakery in Lansing, Michigan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2006-12-06
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b7081e6309993e6a0c3393468ee2f02.pdf
449f10165c59d9cb1e309aee80c6dd9c
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mrs. Stuart Knappen
Interviewed on October 23, 1974
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #42 (1:10:47)
Biographical Information
Mrs. Stuart Knappen was born Claire L. Vesey in Memphis, Tennessee on 27 October 1880. She
was the daughter of Marcellus Lauderdale Vesey and Kate Shropshire. Claire was first married
to George H. Walker in Boston, Massachusetts on 12 August 1905. Evidently either George died
or they divorced and Claire married as her second husband Stuart Knappen on 12 January 1916
in Chicago, Illinois.
Mrs. Knappen died at the age of 102 years in Grand Rapids on 4 November 1982 and is buried in
Oak Hill Cemetery.
Stuart Edwin Knappen was born in Hastings, Michigan on 30 August 1877, the son of Loyal
Edwin Knappen and Amelia Isabel Kenyon. Stuart was first married to Edna B. Pilcher about
1901 and they had a son Alvin and two daughters, Polly and Jane. Edna died at the Knappen
home at 330 Washington Street on 3 February 1913 and is buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Stuart
married Claire and they resided at 322 Fountain Street. Stuart died at his home 14 April 1938 and
is also buried in Oak Hill Cemetery.
___________
Interviewer: I‟m recording this interview at the residence of Mrs. Stuart Knappen. Her residence
is located in the old Albert Stickley house which is located at Sixty Prospect, North-east. It was
built before the turn of the century by Albert Stickley, one of the famous furniture men of his day
and was occupied by the Stickley family into the nineteen twenties. At some point a, either in the
nineteen thirties or nineteen forties this house was converted into apartments. Mrs. Knappen‟s
apartment is on the second floor and is a very lovely apartment and you can see the traces of the
old, this beautiful framework, on the, on the walls in this room. Was this a, perhaps a bedroom?
Knappen: No, it, it was Mrs. Stickley‟s living room. And a, back there was…
Interviewer: It was an upstairs sitting room or living room.
Knappen: Yes.
Interviewer: Well we‟ll start, we‟ll start by a, I should let the listener know that Mrs. Knappen is
perhaps the oldest person we‟ve ever interviewed, or almost at least, and she will be celebrating
her ninety-fourth birthday the day after tomorrow. This is the twenty-third of October so she‟ll
be ninety-four on the twenty-seventh. Alright.
�2
Knappen: Sunday.
Interviewer: It‟ll be Sunday, I see alright now, Mrs. Knappen, why don‟t you start out by telling
us where you were born, what was your maiden name, and tell us about your family background.
Knappen: Well, I was born in eighteen eighty in Memphis, Tennessee. And my father was Judge
M. L. Vesey. V like Victor. V-E-S-E-Y. And he was judge of the Chancery Court, in Memphis.
Interviewer: Had, had the Vesey family lived in Memphis for a long time?
Knappen: The Vesey family originally came from England and they were in New York, he was a
minister at the church right at the head of Wall Street where he‟s buried now.
Interviewer: That was the first Vesey.
Knappen: Yes, the first Vesey.
Interviewer: Isn‟t that Trinity Church, I think?
Knappen: Trinity Church. And he‟s buried in the yard there.
Interviewer: And your family eventually moved south then?
Knappen: They eventually moved south. My father, before the war you know, he moved to
Memphis and he lived there with his first wife who was killed during that war, you know what
war.
Interviewer: The Civil War. Yeah.
Knappen: Civil War and a, she died then and he married my mother who was twenty or thirty
years younger than he was, and a…
Interviewer: Where was she from?
Knappen: From England. She was English. And her grandfather was the Lord-Mayor of London.
Interviewer: And what was your mother‟s maiden name?
Knappen: Shropshire.
Interviewer: Shropshire?
Knappen: S-H-R-O-P-S-H-I-R-E. And her father owned a line of Steam-boats and we were next
door neighbors to Robert E. Lee, you know.
Interviewer: I see, when they lived in Virginia, I take it.
�3
Knappen: Yes, Robert E. Lee lived in Memphis.
Interviewer: Oh I, I didn‟t know that.
Knappen: Yes, he lived next door to where our house is backed up together.
Interviewer: I always assumed he lived in Virginia, for most of his life, but, I‟m obviously
incorrect.
Knappen: No, Robert E. Lee lived right there in Memphis. And he had a daughter Royene(?) Lee
and another one Ora Lee(?) and the steamboats were named for those girls, as well as the boys.
And a…
Interviewer: Did you have brothers and sisters?
Knappen: There were four of us. Two boys and two girls.
Interviewer: And these were all by your father‟s second marriage.
Knappen: Second marriage. And my youngest brother, I have a picture of him right here, he was
very successful. And he was in the Piano business like what‟s his name, ya, you know..
Interviewer: I can‟t think myself. Piano business in Grand Rapids.
Knappen: Yes. Well, down there on Monroe it was…
Interviewer: You mean it was a retail piano business.
Knappen: Yeah. He sold Steinways and all kinds of musical instruments.
Interviewer: Would that be like Old Grinnell Brothers downtown or,…
Knappen: Same thing, that‟s what I was trying to think of.
Interviewer: I see.
Knappen: That kind of business. And he died a couple of years ago at Christmas. He fell, in the
bath, slipped in the bathroom tub and died.
Interviewer: Were you the youngest?
Knappen: I was the youngest girl. There was my brother Walter, then my sister May D. M-A-Y
capital D. And then I came along and then John. And Walter was the sweetest, kindest, best
person in the world. But he never could make a go of anything. He, and a, can you shut that off a
minute, I want to…
�4
Interviewer: Sure.
Knappen: Well, I went to, I never went to public schools. I went to Miss Conway‟s Institute in
Memphis and then I went to a Southern college, private college in Bowling Green, Kentucky.
Girls didn‟t, Southern girls didn‟t go East to school in my day. They went to some local college,
like right in Kentucky, few miles from Memphis, you know, and my brothers went to military
school, Colburn and so forth and my sister went the same as I did.
Interviewer: I see. I‟ve always heard that Memphis was quite a social place, especially many
years ago. Do you have any special memories about that?
Knappen: Yes, I got, I was elected the most beautiful girl in Tennessee!
Interviewer: Well…
Knappen: By popular subscription but you know, the prize was to lead the Cotillion at the boy‟s
social club.
Interviewer: I see.
Knappen: …was “the” club of Memphis. And a, just very funny these were two girls that, a,
Helen Whiteside of Nashville, and, I mean of Chattanooga, and I, we ran neck and neck up „til
the last week or so. But I won…
Interviewer: How did they select the beauty queen in those days?
Knappen: By subscribing to the newspaper.
Interviewer: I see.
Knappen: With a subscription to the paper you‟d get so many votes.
Interviewer: I see.
Knappen: And in the Nashville, a, Chattanooga paper against the Memphis paper.
Interviewer: I see.
Knappen: And I, these sound so silly, my family felt they were disgraced when I tried on this
silver slipper at the downtown shoe store, the one that fit three, size three, and I had little feet.
And I went in and tried it on and won it. And the family was, when it came out in the paper that
I‟d won the Cinderella slipper, they felt they were disgraced. It was so funny you know and what
difference did it make? We young girls thought it was so funny but our families didn‟t this so.
And, well let‟s see, I can‟t think of anything very exciting.
�5
Interviewer: Well I take it you have a very pleasant a…
Knappen: Oh yeah...
Interviewer: …time in those days.
Knappen: I certainly did. I had more attention than any girl you ever heard of up there in your
life.
Interviewer: Have you ever been back, I mean in recent years?
Knappen: Oh, I‟ve gone back and when I married Stuart I was engaged to seven men.
Interviewer: My heavens.
Knappen: Ya, and I had, the boys down south used to give you a lot of jewelry and I had thirteen
rings.
Interviewer: My heavens.
Knappen: I had the most gorgeous pink pearl and I had all kinds of marquis and emerald cuts and
everything you ever heard of. And I had so much jewelry that it was, I didn‟t hold it very dear. I
remember giving a girl a sapphire diamond ring to make a blouse for me in a hurry.
Interviewer: I see. Did you have to return the jewelry that the boys had given you?
Knappen: No.
Interviewer: It wasn‟t considered necessary.
Knappen: Well I got mad at one lad and threw all is jewelry in the wastebasket but he wouldn‟t
take it out. And, but oh, oh I don‟t know, we just all girls had fun(?). And the main thing we used
to do was to get a crowd together on our bicycles and ride out to the little town nearby where
they had a beautiful dance hall. And well, and we had Cotillions and all kinds of things going
constantly, but the most fun was when it snowed once. And we didn‟t have any sleds., One of the
boys got a bath tub and he fixed seats across it and we slid in that, two and four and three
couples…
Interviewer: I see.
Knappen: …two and three and four couples in the bathtub, sliding down the hills. And streetcars in my day you know would stop at your front door and they‟d get to know you and you
would say stop at my house I want to get off or it‟s stop at my grandfather‟s and you don‟t have
to tell ‟em who your grandfather is, they know, by then.
Interviewer: How big a town was Memphis in those days?
�6
Knappen: Oh it was, we thought it was an awfully big city. And it had a lot of skyscrapers and
the one club that my father belonged to was up, way up on a building into the top floor of this
building and it had a bar that turned and it would gradually turn all the time and sometimes you‟d
see the Mississippi River and sometimes you‟d, you wouldn‟t see it, you know. And we thought
that was…
Interviewer: That must have been a first. I was out in San Francisco over a week ago and I was in
an entire restaurant that revolved on the top of a hotel.
Knappen: Well it, it was a club.
Interviewer: About, would that be about the turn of the century? Or..
Knappen: No, this was when I was in my twenties.
Interviewer: Well, a little after then…
Knappen: Well that was, yes, yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Knappen: It wasn‟t too long afterwards.
Interviewer: Was Memphis a pretty prosperous town in those days?
Knappen: Yes. And when, I remember when my father reached ninety, he lived to be ninetynine, and when he was ninety all the courts in Tennessee convened and they had a Judge Vesey
day. And so when they presented him with a gold handled cane and umbrella. And he accepted
the umbrella but he told them they ought to give the cane to an old man. And he was ninety on
that day.
Interviewer: About what year was that?
Knappen: Well I don‟t know, he‟s been dead, he was so much older than my mother.
Interviewer: Yes, yes.
Knappen: I don‟t know. I tell ya, I don‟t know what year it was. But it was after I married Stuart.
Interviewer: Oh really? Well that would take it back to maybe…
Knappen: I married him in nineteen sixteen and I know that Dad, he must have been … well,
about forty years ago.
�7
Interviewer: Um huh. So let‟s take that and see if my arithmetic‟s any good. Oh well, I‟m not
really that good, he must have been born perhaps right about eighteen thirty or there about.
Knappen: Well he was, he went to the Civil war.
Interviewer: Yes. thirty years or eighteen forty or somewhere in there any ways.
Knappen: Yes.
Interviewer: Well, now did you do any traveling as a young person? I mean outside of the South?
Knappen: Yes, I went to Europe.
Interviewer: Uh huh.
Knappen: Just once.
Interviewer: Just once?
Knappen: Uh huh. Before it was many times after I met Stuart, we traveled a lot.
Interviewer: How did you happen to meet Mr. Knappen?
Knappen: I came up here to visit Ethel Campau.
Interviewer: I see. Was she from, where, how did you happen to know her?
Knappen: Well her mother and my mother were sisters.
Interviewer: I see, I see.
Knappen: And she invited me up here to visit her and we went to Mrs. Waters‟ for a party and
Stuart was there.
Interviewer: Now who was Ethel Campau‟s husband?
Knappen: Denny Campau.
Interviewer: Denny Campau. Dennis I presume.
Knappen: Yes. Denny Campau and his father, his grandfather was the Campau that came up the
river and discovered Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: Well he‟s probably a great uncle because I don‟t think Louis Campau had and direct
descendents.
�8
Knappen: Well…
Interviewer: But he had brothers who did.
Knappen: Well they must have been his brother‟s.
Interviewer: Would he, would he have been an uncle or cousin or Tony Campau
Knappen: They were brothers.
Interviewer: They were brothers. I see. Well now I can figure that out.
Knappen: Yeah.
Interviewer: A, so you came up here in about what year to visit a, Ethel?
Knappen: I came up here, now you know I never paid any attention to dates.
Interviewer: Well.
Knappen: Well, a, well it was two years before I married him, still.
Interviewer: Did you meet Mr. Knappen when you made your first trip up here, or..?
Knappen: Yes, when I came here on a visit.
Interviewer: I see.
Knappen: A, as I said at that party at Miss Waters and I came back over here several times and
by then I was living in Chicago. I had an apartment that was owned by Welch‟s Grape Juice
people and it was an awfully nice. It had a velvet swing in the living room that looked out over
the lake. And Stuart, I would sit out, Stuart, it was so romantic with that swing you know. And it
was fine but then, the night before we were to be married, I changed my mind, and told him I
wouldn‟t marry him. And his mother and father and sister Florence, had all arrived in Chicago.
And I said I wouldn‟t marry him and Stuart took the night train over to Chicago and talked me
back into it. And I remember saying “Oh I can‟t get married now.” And Ethel Campau said
“Well you have to because, I‟ve got to live in that town.”
Interviewer: Were you married in Chicago?
Knappen: Yes, married and I‟ve got a picture of the church. But I didn‟t tell my family that I was
getting married. My father came flying up there and took me home, wouldn‟t let me be married
and he said I‟d better wait and think it over. And I did, for twenty-four hours. And I don‟t think
his mother and father ever knew that I had changed my mind.
�9
Interviewer: I see. Well now then you came right back to Grand Rapids after you were married
or did you go on a honeymoon at that point?
Knappen: …(?) Stuart never forgave me, I don‟t think I had the honeymoon I took him down
South to the school where my son, but oh I…
Interviewer: Mrs. Knappen, when you moved to Grand Rapids in nineteen sixteen, after your
marriage and honeymoon, where did you first live?
Knappen: Fountain Street.
Interviewer: The house that I know?
Knappen: Yes.
Interviewer: Between Lafayette and Prospect.
Knappen: And now I just came around the corner here.
Interviewer: You really haven‟t strayed very far.
Knappen: No, I haven‟t. And well that place looks so awful now, on Fountain that I make a point
never to go near it, where I have to see it. You know, we kept it up so beautifully inside and out
and the outside never was anything special, but only it was neat and well cared for. And we had a
beautiful flower garden and fountain and things like that formal rose garden. I belonged to the
garden club here, and I was selected to go to New York to World‟s Fair and do a flower
arrangement. Which I did, and I got a prize.
Interviewer: Was that nineteen thirty-nine I can‟t remember for sure myself.
Knappen: I don‟t know, as I tell you, I don‟t know but I went there and did an arrangement all
white and Elna Cornelius followed me there the day after I did it and she thought it was very
beautiful and it was. If I do say it is, you know. But it was.
Interviewer: Can you tell me, do you know who built that house?
Knappen: On Fountain?
Interviewer: Yes
Knappen: The Crosby‟s I think, Jim Crosby.
Interviewer: Well, do you mean Mr. and Mrs. James Crosby, Senior?
Knappen: Yes
�10
Interviewer: I see. So that house must have been built before the turn of the century?
Knappen: Oh I think it was. And the Clements lived right across the street from us. That brick
house.
Interviewer: The Uhl house?
Knappen: Yes.
Interviewer: Who were the neighbors that you were closest to up in this part of town?
Knappen: Well, all of them. Everybody around here knew everybody else. The Dickenson‟s next
door, your family, the Judson‟s next doors to them and the Stevens, and then these two square
blocks we knew everybody in every house. They were… knew them well. And then the second
house… Who lived in the second house on Lafayette catty-corner across from you?
Interviewer: The second house?
Knappen: The first house was…
Interviewer: Campbells? You mean catty-corner from us?
Knappen: Yes
Interviewer: Well, that was the Wylie house originally. Well not originally but it was for many
years.
Knappen: The Wylie house. Then next door to the Wylie‟s was…
Interviewer: Well, your house? On Fountain…
Knappen: Yeah, on Fountain, but I mean on Lafayette.
Interviewer: Didn‟t Curtis Wylie build a house right next to the old Wylie house? That Percy
Owens eventually lived in?
Knappen: Yeah.
Interviewer: That‟s the house you are thinking of?
Knappen: No the one next to that.
Interviewer: Then that was the Holt‟s? John C. Holt‟s
Knappen: Yes, the Holts and then the Fullers and the O‟Briens across the street, the Stevens and
that funny old man, Mr. Shelby. I‟ll never forget one time in a movie he sat down next to me and
�11
he didn‟t know who I was and he started patting my knee, and I reached over and caught hold of
him and I said “Hello Mr. Shelby.” And he straightened up and he stopped patting my knees then
about that time
Interviewer: Did you have any trouble getting used to Grand Rapids?
Knappen: Yes, I visited and knew about everybody but then I felt Stuart was trying to freeze me
to death the first night I spent in Grand Rapids. It was January you know, and when he opened
this great big double window and the snowflakes flew in on me I thought, „What on earth is this
man doing to me?‟ It was so cold. And down South we didn‟t have any snow and we didn‟t have
any really cold weather. We had one snow, the one I told you about with the bath tub. But I
thought the weather up here was just awful. I thought, „How would anyone in their right mind
live in this climate?‟ But you know I got so I liked everything about it, especially the fishing.
Stuart and I, the first time we took a trip, I thought we‟d be going to Europe and I went down,
got all the literature and I found out we were going to fish - fishing. That was funny and it‟s the
truth. We rode through the country side, every time we‟d pass a bridge with a little water under it
we got out and made camp and fished. Oh I thought it was so terrible. But you know we finally
built our own camp and I used to go in the stream twice a day.
Interviewer: Where was it?
Knappen: It was in Middle Branch as you turned off of Kennedy‟s Corners going up to the
Indian Club before you get to Baldwin. We had big iron gates up there. You go in and you have a
little drive up to our camp. And we had a deluxe camp, with two men, one white and one black,
and a Negro woman cook and when we had guests she‟d meet them at the door with a little tin
cup and it‟d say: „Would you give me a donation for the church?‟ And the church donations went
into her pocket. We had to give her fits about asking our guests for money before they got their
suitcases.
Interviewer: You say it was Little Branch River?
Knappen: Yes Middle Branch. It‟s a part of the Pere Marquette. We built right on the river where
you could look upstream and downstream. The whole front of the place was glass and the whole
back. And our living room up there was forty feet and we had heat and had a bar in the basement.
Stuart bought a bar from a firm that was going out of business soon. And he even got the brass
rail and the spittoons that went into it; and he and his fisherman friends used to have a lot of fun
down there.
Interviewer: Judging from your description of it so far I take it, it was rather a large [cabin] and
did you very often have house guests?
Knappen: Oh yes, we could sleep twenty people and we had an upstairs which we never used.
From the front it was a one story camp but from the river side it was three stories. The basement
you see it was built on a slant. And the bar was in that basement. And then we had this great big
living room then, it was paneled with solid wormy chestnut, whatever that was. And we had four
bedrooms and three baths on the main floor and in the basement we had that… Isaac was the
�12
white man that we had and he would have ice, his refrigerator turned on and ice made every
weekend ready for us. And we had a garage for our guests and our own cars. It really was a
lovely, lovely place and the pictures, you‟d think it was a hotel in New York but if you got very
close you‟d find it wasn‟t at all.
Interviewer: How many years did you have it?
Knappen: Well we must have had it ten years.
Interviewer: Until the late twenties or into the thirties?
Knappen: Yes, well Stuart died in thirty-eight and the last time we were there was thirty-seven. I
never went back afterwards.
Interviewer: Did you have neighbors that you knew nearby?
Knappen: Oh, Ed Johnson‟s. They‟re right across the stream around the bend so you couldn‟t see
them. But Stuart had a little bridge built there and Ed and Stuart had a telephone line that went
nowhere except to each other. And they had a lot of fun; they‟d ring the thing and then say New
York‟s calling Mr. Johnson, or Mr. Knappen. And we used to all meet at that bridge in the
afternoon to go swimming. And once, Jack McCray was a guest up there when a little garden
snake jumped off the bank and into the stream and he shrieked! You‟d thought it was a woman
and a mouse. He was so frightened. You know he‟s still living.
Interviewer: Somewhere in British Colombia or out in that part of the world isn‟t it?
Knappen: Yeah, I‟ve been writing to him for thirty years because he was so nice to Stuart and
Jane. He was a funny little fellow. But all these lovely, big men, friends of ours have died and
that little tiny thing is still going. Everybody feels so sorry for me because I have to write him. I
started it, now I‟ve been writing him for thirty years. Every time I get a lette rout I think now
maybe he‟s died, but he hasn‟t. He‟s going strong.
Interviewer: Well I know that he came from a family with legal background. His father was
Judge Loyal E. Knappen and there may have been other lawyers in the family that I don‟t know
about.
Knappen: His father was Judge Loyal E. Knappen, was a Court of Appeals and I know he went
to Cincinnati twice a month, I mean for two weeks out of each month and when Judge Dennison
died Stuart was offered that Court of Appeals position but he couldn‟t afford to take it you know.
It only paid something like twelve thousand dollars in those days and we had an expensive
family you know. Three girls all in school at one time for instance. And then when Father
Knappen died they offered it to Stuart again although they had increased the salary he still
couldn‟t take it. But another thing, he didn‟t want to be away from home two weeks out [of every
month, we had to go fishing together. He couldn‟t go away for two weeks out of every month in
the summer. But he was a president of the Michigan Bar at the time he died. And of course he
was president of the Grand Rapids Bar first. And he represented all the, most of the railroads
�13
and big concerns like Simmons Hardware and oh I don‟t know. At the time he died I got him
these memorials I guess you‟d call them. And some of them were suede, done in suede and some
in just paper-back. They‟re very nice.
Interviewer: Who were some of his law partners?
Knappen: It was Knappen, Uhl, Bryant, and Snow and Upham. And when Stuart died Mr. Snow
died shortly afterwards and then it, the firm was Uhl, Bryant and Upham, and somebody else
now. Upham and young Bryant Dick Bryant,I don‟t know many others.
Interviewer: Were some of these men close friends of Mr. Knappen, in addition to being his
partners?
Knappen: Oh yes, Marshall Uhl and I guess they all were. Do you remember Snap Bryant?
Interviewer: Oh well, I never knew him but I knew his brother and his brother‟s son and one of
them I went to boarding school with, so I used to hear about my friend Steve Bryant‟s uncle
Snap. But I never, I don‟t remember ever meeting him. I used to hear a lot of stories about him.
Knappen: Oh yeah, well this one time Stuart was so mad at him, he was in some other state and
he wanted to charge some gasoline to himself and they wouldn‟t charge it to him and he said he
was gonna have him put out of business. And the gasoline people called Stuart up and they were
quite provoked and Stuart had to explain to them that he had no authority. Oh, I want to tell you
something funny though. You know this chauffer of ours, Shakespeare? Well he, they were
Negroes of course and he had a brother Beethoven and another one Mathelius. So now
Beethoven worked at the Pantlind and he gambled and won some money but he couldn‟t get off
his job to collect so he had Shakespeare to go collect it for him. And while he was collecting, the
place was raided and so they were arrested. And when they came up for trial, the judge asked
their names and when Shakespeare gave his name, Shakespeare and Beethoven, the judge said,
“Now you little smarties, I‟ll make an example out of you two young men.” And Stuart had to go
over to court and tell that they were their real names. The judge thought that they were just being
little smart aleks. I thought it was awfully funny. I was kind of wishing that Shakespeare‟d get
arrested, really arrested and stay in because he was so proud of that name and I asked him how
did they, the boys get those names? Mathelius and Beethoven and Roosevelt and he said well his
old Uncle lived with the family, he didn‟t work and he just sat around and named the children
when they came. I thought it was kind of cute.
Interviewer: What do you know about the Sam Young family? Seems to me they were quite an
interesting family in this neighborhood.
Knappen: Yes. They lived across the street from us. And Lola, did you ever know Lola?
Interviewer: Yes, I remember Mrs. Young.
Knappen: Well she was a character. And old Sam Young couldn‟t talk without spitting you
know. He sprayed you every time. They were nice enough.
�14
Interviewer: Well I always liked Elvira.
Knappen: Oh Elvira, I still like Elvira. She has this little retarded child and at first they wouldn‟t
put her anywhere but they have now. She‟s grown up. They‟ve put her in an institution. Alice
and John Doban(?) were kind of funny, weren‟t they? Lola wore such peculiar clothes and we all
like Lola but we could never laugh at her because she would wear these funny, very fancy shoes
and we were all wearing high heels in those days and she was wearing flats, you know.
Interviewer: Did both Mrs. and Mr. Young come from the South originally?
Knappen: Yes, they came from… I don‟t know where.
Interviewer: I think it was North Carolina wasn‟t it?
Knappen: I think it was one of the Carolina‟s.
Interviewer: Seems to me they had quite a staff over there.
Knappen: Yes. Well we had Betsy and Shakespeare and do you remember the Negro man down
at the Union Depot in those days? Everybody knew him. That nice old Negro man?
Interviewer: I‟m not sure I can, I know which one you‟re talking about.
Knappen: Yes, well we had his daughter for the second, her name was Bea, she said it was
Beatriz. We just called her Bea. She was the second maid, upstairs maid. And we had three
regular servants and Grace Brown came two or three days a week to clean and do laundry. Oh,
and I want to tell you what a smart woman I was. I never counted the laundry in and out you
know, I paid no attention. And before we got, Betsy that maid we had for twenty odd years, this
woman we had was having her whole family and her boyfriend‟s laundry done on my time. You
know, Stuart‟s shirts went to the laundry and so did her boyfriend‟s. And once on her day out,
the laundry came in and that‟s how I discovered it. Down South you can walk out your kitchen
any time and find a couple of colored people sitting there. They just come for a meal, they think
it‟s their right, you know. And no questions asked. A cook down there that my mother had, used
to play the numbers, and every time I‟d go down to Memphis she‟d get me to play the numbers
with her. Do you know what that is? I didn‟t know, I‟d never heard of it before.
Interviewer: Do you hear from Mrs. Butterfield from time to time?
Knappen: Yes, she lives in some little town, Waverly, Tennessee. And yes she sent me a glass of
jelly, the other day and said that I liked it so much. I never heard of it before, but she had me
mixed up with a couple of other people. But I didn‟t tell her that. She, I think, oh her mother has
died?
Interviewer: Yes, she died last summer. There‟s some talk that she might come back to Grand
Rapids.
�15
Knappen: I know it and I hope she does. Somebody said that she was coming back.
Interviewer: It‟s quite interesting that over the years, that especially years ago there were quite a
few people came up here from the South or married people from the South. Doctor Van was
from the south and Dr. William Wilson down the street. And seems there was quite a group of
people here at one point.
Knappen: I remember we gave a party for the Wilson‟s when they were first married. And she
said at the table that night, she met him when they were in the service. And she said when I was
introduced him said “I didn‟t know that he was “the” Mr. “the” Dr. Wilson.” Then Jack McCray
said: “What did you mean „the‟ Dr. Wilson?” I could have killed him. Because you know as far
as we knew he wasn‟t “the” Dr. Wilson, but a very nice man. I used to go across the street and
play bridge with them this last, a year ago. I was going to say before he died, well naturally.
Interviewer: Did you know that Elizabeth Stuart Minor and her husband have moved, bought
Mrs. McCleod‟s house across the street?
Knappen: Yes, they‟re going to have a meeting there on Monday, and my daughter Betty told me
about it. They‟ve done quite a bit to that house. You saw the building going on?
Interviewer: Well, my sister when she was here about three weeks ago, we went over to see her,
and because she and Helen are very close friends. She was naturally interested that Elizabeth had
come back to the neighborhood where she got started. Now you, when you did your entertaining,
did you do most of it at home or did you go out to other clubs?
Knappen: Here you mean or down south?
Interviewer: No, in Grand Rapids.
Knappen: Oh we did at home, we entertained for the (?) at the country club mostly but there are
tea dances and things like that, but no, we used to have as many as seventy people at the house.
And we used to have these saw horses with the planks on them put up and tablecloths or and one
time I remember we were having this party for around seventy people and the first course was
oysters „down the hatch.‟ But we served so many drinks before hand, they forgot to serve the
oysters. So the next morning the back porch was just covered with oysters „down the hatch‟ and
that was funny.
Interviewer: Who were some of the other people that you knew well in those days.
Knappen: Up here?
INTERVIEWER: Well not necessarily in this neighborhood but around the city here.
Knappen: Well I think we knew just about everybody. I can‟t think of anybody we didn‟t know,
our age people. The Stevens‟, the Lockwood‟s, the Everett‟s and the Guyhouses(?), nobody
�16
wanted to sit by her and I‟d always put her next to Stuart and Stuart would get so he‟d go to the
dining room and look around to see where he was. And he‟d change his place and put Guyhouse
next to me. We had a lot of fun over that.
Interviewer: You must have known the Booth family pretty well.
Knappen: The Booth‟s, oh yes and let me see, and trying to think, Dee, Ella?, that family?
Interviewer: The Hazeltine girls?
Knappen: Yes, the Hazeltine girls. And of course everybody in this neighborhood, we called it
Knob Hill in those days. We all knew each other so well, in every house. There wasn‟t a house
that we didn‟t know, the Dickinson‟s, and then well we didn‟t know Mr. and Mrs. Stickley so
well but Florence we did. And then the Cur and the Hudson‟s and the Curtis‟, different ones, and
the Butterfield‟s lived next door here. And the minister Dean Higgins. And the Blodgett‟s used
to live in that corner house.
Interviewer: Was that Delos Blodgett‟s or the Jack, or the John Blodgett‟s?
Knappen: The John Blodgett‟s lived there in that kind of funny stone house. And then were you
old enough to go to the party they had out at the new home when the boy was, his bride, the
party was given for his bride?
Interviewer: That was the first marriage? No I wasn‟t, I wasn‟t old enough but I remember
hearing about it later, in later years but I didn‟t go to it.
Knappen: I didn‟t know whether you were old enough or not.
Interviewer: No there‟s about at least twenty years difference in our ages so.
Knappen: Yes, but that was quite a party. I remember a party that Mr. Jack gave out on the lake
you know. And he had the whole front yard, every bush and tree had blooms and the lawn, had
little tables on the lawn.
Interviewer: That‟s Reed‟s Lake?
Knappen: Yes, that home on that was such a pretty looking party you know.
Interviewer: Not quite apart from your social life and I know there was a great deal of it in this
neighborhood in those days, I am old enough to remember…
Knappen: Yes.
Interviewer: …Did you have some other special interests in Grand Rapids?
�17
Knappen: I belonged to the Women‟s… well what‟s now Porter Hills? What was the name of it
before?
Interviewer: Oh you mean Isabella Home I think.
Knappen: Yes, I belonged and Stuart used to die laughing at me because I‟d take those old
women and have their hair done and all, and they loved it you know. And I also furnished
entertainment for them on Sundays. And I‟d get all my friends that could do anything, sing, play
the piano, to go out and entertain the ladies. And I‟d buy them shoes, instead of buying them
nice, sensible shoes, I‟d get them pretty fancy shoes. And then I belonged to the Butterworth
Hospital‟s Women‟s Board. I got Jack McCray to furnish the Infants Department at the hospital
for me, and I got somebody else to give me a big soup kitchen for the hospital. I got all kinds of
things. Mrs. Bender was the president, at the time I was on the board. We used to have a lot of
fun because I‟d get so much stuff donated.
Interviewer: Yes, so you remember some of the other people besides Mrs. [Charles] Bender that
worked with you?
Knappen: Oh yes. Well Mrs. Blodgett you know.
Interviewer: You mean Mrs. Lowe?
Knappen: Oh yes Mrs. [Edward] Lowe of course, not Mrs. Blodgett. I don‟t know, did she ever,
Mrs. Blodgett never did any kind of work like that, never heard of it.
Interviewer: Well she, I think she must have taken an interest in the Blodgett Hospital, I suppose.
I don‟t know.
Knappen: I don‟t know either. But Mrs. [Edward] Lowe did an awful lot. And I liked Mrs. Lowe,
I thought she was a lot of fun.
Interviewer: Did you go by her house quite often?
Knappen: Oh yes, a great deal go out there. She used to have a lot of Sunday night parties.
Interviewer: What did you do during prohibition for liquor?
Knappen: Oh boy, what did we do? Well, Bill Wurzburg and a Henry Heel and Stuart and Foster
Stevens were all making gin. And I drove an ambulance for the Motor Corps during the war and
I‟d hear the people talking and I‟d tell on them to Stuart and the men that they were making gin
and what happened to them, the police got them. I was making it up and kidding him and they
took me seriously and they poured out all the hard earned gin that they and bought and made and
they thought that I mean it. Bill had it all at his house and he, I never told him, they‟d have killed
me. How would I know, they should have known I was joking.
�18
Interviewer: Was that all you could drink was a home-made or bathtub gin whatever it was
called?
Knappen: Oh yes but you know father Knappen had a wonderful wine cellar and he poured it all
out you know. And Stuart and Stuart‟s brother begged him to let them have it. No he said it was
against the law. Just like the cook that caught the little mouse in the kitchen one hot summer day.
And she had it, caught it in a trap and she, so she said to mother Knappen, “What‟ll I do with it?”
And she said just take it and throw it, bury it in the back yard. Father Knappen said no, you can‟t
do that, that‟s against the law to bury animals on the premises. And that hot day he wouldn‟t
consider anything. But he went to the basement and built a fire in the furnace to burn up this little
mouse. We always thought that was funny. He was a stickler for the law.
Interviewer: Was Judge Loyal Knappen born in Grand Rapids or did he come here?
Knappen: No, he and Mother Knappen both were born in Hastings.
Interviewer: Raised here. And Mr. Knappen, your husband was born in Hastings then?
Knappen: Yes, he was born there and he said that one cold winter day. Father Knappen‟s office
in those days was upstairs over some place, and they had a stairway with an iron banister and
Stuart stuck his tongue on the iron rail and it stuck to it one cold winter day and he couldn‟t get
his tongue loose. And he pulled it away, took all the skin off his tongue.
Interviewer: Mrs. Knappen, we traditionally think of people from the South as high-brow
democrats, could I presume on your friendship to answer my question as to how you vote?
Knappen: Well I‟d like to tell you something. My brother John the younger one, worked harder
than anybody you ever heard of for the democrats of course and they used to say you couldn‟t
get a job in Memphis unless John said so. And the last time Roosevelt ran, you know, was
elected of course, my mother called me up on the phone and said, “John got Roosevelt elected
again.” She thought it was all her boy‟s doing.
Interviewer: Oh, the Knappen‟s were probably Republicans, were they not?
Knappen: Oh yes, I just said go with Nixon and I still am mad because they treated him so badly.
And I was so glad that he was pardoned.
Interviewer: How do you like Mr. [Gerald] Ford?
Knappen: I like him But they tell me I like everybody. But how do you like him? I won‟t tell.
Interviewer: I tell this to posterity, I like him very much.
Knappen: Well so do I.
Interviewer: I happen to agree with him on a lot of things…
�19
Knappen: I agree with him on everything.
Interviewer: …but I think he‟s handled his new office very well and I think he‟s having an awful
rough time right now. But I‟ve had occasion to be with him and rather closely know him over a
period of years from time to time. And I know he‟s a man of great integrity and complete
honesty.
Knappen: I don‟t think anybody can doubt that.
Interviewer: And I think he‟s much more able then we gave him credit for. I didn‟t come here to
talk, you‟re supposed to do the talking.
Knappen: No, no, no.But I just was so glad when he pardoned Nixon, and I don‟t care those
other men were just jealous. I put it down, I really do, think they persecuted him. What I‟d like to
know is why they didn‟t do something to that Edward Kennedy when he drowned that young
girl.
Interviewer: Well, many people will ask that question for a long time and I‟m sure that if he ever
does run for president it would be a…
Knappen: Well he better not. I said I was going to have them get out pamphlets and mail them to
every state in the Union, because I think he was such a coward.
Interviewer: Now the other question that sometimes people think people shouldn‟t discuss and
I‟ll just throw it out, I gather you have an association here with the Episcopal Church? Do you
remember Saint Mark‟s? And do you know the new rector there. Father Howell? You haven‟t
met the new rector?
Knappen: Yes, I have. When Laura Blackman died he performed the ceremony and you know
now that I have difficulty in walking those steps.
Interviewer: Those steps are hard to get up.
Knappen: Going up is easier for me than going down, that‟s my excuse.
Interviewer: Was your family an Episcopalian family in the South?
Knappen: Oh yes, always. And my brother John, the one that remains. He was in the little boy
choir as a singer for the time he was a little fellow. And he had a magnificent baritone voice.
And he played the piano so beautifully. When he was a little boy, little tiny boy in his nightshirt
he used to get out of bed and go sit at the piano and play.
Interviewer: What are you going to do on your birthday?
�20
Knappen: Well, now let me see. If I‟m lucky I‟ll be doing nothing. If they drag me out, Betty
Knappen has gone to Oregon and she came down here, she just left yesterday.
Interviewer: Who is Betty?
Knappen: Betty Oakland. Betty Knappen married to Paul. Well she came yesterday and brought
me a cake that I was to have for my birthday when she said if you have somebody drop in. I have
never told anybody when my birthday is because I don‟t want them dropping in making work for
me. And not long ago Betty and Cynthia, my grandchild, came here to see me one day and they
couldn‟t get in. They knocked on the door and the telephoned and no answer and they thought I
was dead. And Cynthia got to crying and she went out in the back and looked in the window,
said, She hasn‟t even been to bed, she‟s probably just lying there.” I was out to the county club
playing bridge. And they got the police up to break down the door but he wouldn‟t break down
the door he went around the back and looked in the window and said that, the fact that
everything is neat and clean doesn‟t look like she‟s dead. And he could see from the bathroom in
through probably course he couldn‟t see over that but they got a ladder and put up in front and
discovered I wasn‟t there.
[Recording ends]
Interviewer: Do you play in one of those bridge marathons?
Knappen: Yes I‟m playing in that again this year. Betty Rango(?) and I won the place three
years.
Interviewer: Who‟s your partner now?
Knappen: G.B. Vanberg(?), she‟s a good player but she plays her cards beautifully but I don‟t
think, who am I to just talk about G.B., she‟s supposed to be one of the best. But I don‟t think
she always bids so beautifully.
Interviewer: Did you play bridge a lot when your husband was living?
Knappen: Oh yes, well let me show you something. Can you open that drawer?
Interviewer: Yes, here‟s a picture and I don‟t have a date on it, but it‟s a picture from the Grand
Rapids Press. A yellow clipping and it shows four people playing bridge.
Knappen: They are the Alexander‟s.
Interviewer: Now were they from Grand Rapids?
Knappen: Yes.
Interviewer: I don‟t remember them.
�21
Knappen: Well we didn‟t know then either. It started out with the city tournament. And there
was, oh I‟ve forgotten how many couples.
Interviewer: I‟m going to guess this was taken about nineteen thirty or maybe thirty-one or there
abouts because the name Dykhuizen appears as the photographer and I think he was in the
photography business along with a Mr. LeClear, and I don‟t think that‟s LeClear either, at about
that time.
Knappen: This was at the University Club, the last night of it and I just found that stuck in a
book. And I used to have all kinds of bridge books, but now I don‟t look in them anymore. Well
I‟ve been playing bridge for seventy years, I ought to know a little something about it. But, it
changes a lot you know. But I gland through the latest book once in a while to make sure I‟m up
on things, that‟s all.
Interviewer: Well I think it‟s past the hour of five and I think I‟d better go home. But I must say
it‟s been delightful.
Knappen: Well it‟s been fun.
Interviewer: I‟d sort of like to come back and start over again.
Knappen: You just do that.
Interviewer: Well, maybe one day we will get together again. Maybe I‟ll think of some other
questions to ask you but I want to thank you very, very much for your hospitality and for telling
me…
Knappen: Oh my goodness, I never offered you a drink.
Interviewer: Well, I don‟t think I‟ve got time. I‟ll take a look at the clock and if there is a little
time I‟ll take one in a hurry, how‟s that?
Knappen: Well, yes you do that. What would you drink? I usually drink scotch. I‟ve got some.
Interviewer: And I‟ll close on…
Knappen: … but you know what. I don‟t have any ice.
Interviewer: That‟s alright, I‟ll be English.
Knappen: Oh well, you be English.
�22
INDEX
B
K
Bender, Josephine · 18
Blodgett Family · 17, 18
Booth Family · 16
Bryant Family · 13
Bryant, Mr. · 1
Butterfield, Mrs. · 15, 17
Kennedy, Edward (Ted) · 11, 20
Knappen, Judge Loyal E. (Father-in-law) · 13
Knappen, Stuart (Husband) · 1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15,
16, 17, 18, 19
C
Lee, Robert E. · 3
Lockwood Family · 16
Lowe, Mrs. Edward · 18
Campau Family · 7, 8
Campau, Ethel · 9
Clements Family · 10
Crosby, Mr. and Mrs. James · 10
D
Dennison, Judge · 13
E
Everett Family · 16
F
Ford, President Gerald R. · 19
G
L
M
McCray, Jack · 12, 15, 17
Miss Conway‟s Institute · 4
O
Oakland, Betty Knappen · 16, 20, 21
R
Reed‟s Lake · 17
S
Guyhouse Family · 16
Saint Mark‟s Episcopal Church · 20
Shelby, Mr. · 11
Snow, Mr. · 13
H
U
Hazeltine Family · 16
Holt Family · 11
Uhl, Marshall · 13
University Club · 22
Upham, Mr. · 13
J
V
Johnson, Ed · 12
Vesey, Judge Marcellus Lauderdale (Father) · 2, 3, 6, 8, 9,
13, 18
Vesey, Kate Shropshire (Mother) · 2, 6, 7, 15, 18, 19
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Waters, Mrs. · 7, 8
Wilson, Dr. · 15
Young Family · 14
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e22ed5052d7dfbcc953fc194c8bc7be.mp3
3da14399df38905c3e507d3428271566
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Various
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf; audio/mp3
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text; Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-23
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1971 - 1977
Sound
A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-23_42Knappen
Title
A name given to the resource
Knappen, Claire
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Knappen, Claire
Description
An account of the resource
Claire Vesey was born in 1880 in Memphis, Tennessee. She married Stuart Knappen in 1916. Stuart was part of a law firm in Grand Rapids and president of the Michigan Bar Association. Mrs. Knappen was a member of the Flower Garden Club and was on the Butterworth Hospital Women's Board. She died in 1982.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
audio/mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1974
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d3d560d29a66f23d443c7305e8bec29b.jpg
d65c05454abefe223845fcccb2dafc5b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-07_SD-Red-Misc-18
Title
A name given to the resource
Kneeling
Description
An account of the resource
A black and white photo of an actor and actress kneeling on a stage with waves behind them. The woman has her hands crossed and appears to be talking or singing while the man next to her gazes as her as he smiles.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Community theater
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Digital file collected by the Kutsche Office of Local History from the Saugatuck Douglas History Center for the Stories of Summer project.
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives