453 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b83c5f2f9e0ca4689d129d8c6be658b8.mp4 517d9ef81118aff9b5b0dcaf7afc6cbe https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee7b6033cfba88c7c9f92269d1f37bdb.pdf c0442628dbc96c7e3637a1d7ce1db608 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of Interviewee: Phil Lugtigheid Name of War: Vietnam War Length of Interview: (00:17:21) Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (00:04) • Born in Grand Rapids, MI • Enlisted in the Air Force at age 17 in April 1962 Training (01:30) • Enlisted in Detroit, and was sent to Lackland AFB in San Antonio, TX for 5 weeks of basic training. • (02:00) He then went to Chanute AFB in Illinois for 34 weeks of training to learn to be a flight controls and autopilot repairman. Active Duty (02:25) • After training, he was sent to George AFB in Southern California. • (03:01) His wing would go to Spain for 6 months at a time for air defense command. • (03:30) He also spent some time in Alaska. • (04:45) They would train to support airplanes on alert status by boarding airplanes on a few minutes notice with whatever equipment they could grab. They would be dropped off at the other side of base and they would have to repair flight systems with whatever they had brought along. • (05:35) He was also sent to Taiwan for 2 ½ weeks, and then to Vietnam for 4 ½ months where his wing flew Army and Marine support missions. They stopped in Hawaii and the Wake Islands on the way over. • (07:57) He made many friends while he was in the Air Force, but he did not stay in contact with them. • (08:30) His job was to repair autopilot and other systems which the pilots reported as malfunctioning. They were generally electronics fixes. • He would communicate by letters and phone calls while he was overseas. • (10:21) He took some courses at a community college when he was in California. • (11:16) While they were in Vietnam, they were attacked by the NVA a few times while they were on their base in Da Nang, Vietnam. The NVA were able to get on the base a few times and they blew up some airplanes. • (12:30) He was in the Air Force for 4 years, but was only in Vietnam during the early part of the war. • (13:36) He was supposed to be sent back to Vietnam, but he didn’t have enough time left on his enlistment to go back. Post-Service (14:03) • He went to Michigan after he was discharged with a friend. • (15:35) He attended Grand Rapids Junior College and Western Michigan College on the GI Bill. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LugtigheidP Title A name given to the resource Lugtigheid, Paul (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lugtigheid, Paul Description An account of the resource Paul Lugtigheid was born in Grand Rapids, MI and served in the Air Force during the Vietnam War. He joined the Air Force at age 17, and became an autopilot and flight controls mechanic. He was based in California and spent some tours of duty in Spain. He also spent a tour of duty in Da Nang, Vietnam on a base working support for aircraft. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kailey Rosema (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-05-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1559f08573cc574159834a3b670bcd35.mp4 16a7e633638775607ed60c68f8237c49 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/410a301021f6b15ed74dc68282ecc9ff.pdf d1f98afab233c4f55f6e4c75fb7c0027 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW DR. GARY LULENSKI Born: Resides: Interviewed by: Richard Massa, for the GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 3, 2014 I’m Dr. Gary Lulenski, Vietnam veteran. 1970-1971, I was stationed in Chu Lai, Vietnam as a medical company commander. Interviewer: Today is Thursday, November 19th 2009, and we are at Lake Michigan College in Benton Harbor, Michigan. The interviewee, as I mentioned, is Dr. Gary Lulenski, and the camera operator is Bill Langbehn, and the interviewer is Richard Massa. We are performing this interview as part of the Veterans History Project being conducted by Grand Valley State University in Allendale, Michigan. 1:02 Interviewer: Gary, what branch of the service? I was in the United States Infantry and I was what was referred to as an obligatory volunteer, because in medical school if I hadn’t been willing to sign up for some active duty time, then the directors of the programs for training, called residency, they would be disinclined to look favorably upon you, because then you might get drafted and taken right out of the middle of the year. You were one of few, and very much needed, so I signed up in 1966 to into the very program after part of my training was completed. Interviewer: Did you finish your medical training and then go into the service? No, I finished medical school, a year of internship and a year of surgical residency. 2:03 Those were granted without much problem. If you really wanted to spend another three or four years becoming a fully trained surgeon, like I am, then you would have to enter a 1 �sort of lottery system where about one out of twenty physicians, who attempted to get that deferment, only a few received it. Interviewer: Now, was part of your medical training, schooling, covered by the GI Bill after serving? That’s a good question. After I returned from active duty I had four more years of training. I didn’t know it when I went in, but I was eligible for some portion of my—my income came from the GI Bill for educational purposes, so for those four years I did receive some additional payments. Interviewer: You entered the military program and what, and where, was your military training? 3:05 At that time all the physicians, medical corps, the physicians were all in the medical corps, and then the medical service corps, who were, basically, the executive officers and the right hand people for the medical corps officers, and the veterinarians and the nurses, we all went to Fort Sam Houston, San Antonio, Texas, so I had a basic training course there for six weeks. Interviewer: After that did you go directly to Vietnam? I think I went home for a few days. That was a while ago, a few years ago, and I think I went home for a few days, but I went from Cleveland, Ohio to Tacoma Air Force Base and from Tacoma to—stopped in Anchorage, stopped in Guam, and then on to Bien Hoa airfield in Saigon. 4:01 Interviewer: Were you married or single at the time? I was married and I had one small boy, Jeffery, and they stayed in Cleveland. Interviewer: Do you remember arriving in the country? 2 �Yeah, I do remember arriving and getting g in country. Even though it was so long ago, of course we’ve had our course going on this and it helps to revive memories and I hope more good than bad. But, flying into Bien Hoa and sitting with some other physicians, and some enlisted men and officers, someone in the row next to me said, “Well, I hope this is better than the last time, because the last time that I came over here there were rockets coming into the airports and we had to get off the plane and go directly into bunkers”. I’m thinking, “Oh, this can’t be, I can’t be here and have to go down some chute and go into a bunker”. 5:02 We landed without a problem, but in 1968, during the Tet Offensive, and afterwards, the Bien Hoa airport took not only rocket attacks, but mortars and sappers. That guy was not making it up, he was telling the truth. Interviewer: What rank were you when you arrived? I was a Captain when I arrived, because during the Vietnam War you were given credit for time in service for your medical training. In my case that was four years of medical school, and two years of post-graduate school, so I was given the rank of Captain and I was considered to have six years in the service. My father was in the same position as medical corps company commander as I was, but then in the 2nd World War they didn’t give credit for your training. 6:00 Interviewer: What was your position? Were you a company medical corps commander, or a person who worked for someone else? No, I was a company commander. My MOS directed me to be in charge of a company of a hundred and forty men, as opposed to a general medical officer who would be assigned to a firebase. We had about thirty general medical officers and they were out in the middle of the jungle on a hill, so I was in a division area where we had a very secure 3 �perimeter. We were on the South China Sea and I was in charge of the company. How they expected me to know what to do with a hundred and forty people, some of them who were half crazy, and how they expected me to do that with six weeks of learning, I don’t know. Interviewer: You were not in any area where your medical facilities came under direct fire? 7:00 There were rocket attacks during the 1970-1971 period, but no significant mortar attacks, no significant attacks by units and we didn’t have any significant explosions caused by sappers. We had two fixed hospitals and I assisted surgery at each of those to some extent, and then I had a dispensary with two other physicians. I was in charge of daily care for soldiers in the Americal [23rd] Division. Then we had an inpatient facility for those wounded and were going to have what was called delayed primary closure. A soldier that was wounded with shrapnel did not go to the hospital and have those wounds closed up right away, unless they were life threatening. So, one of my responsibilities was to decide when, and how, to help those wounded. We also had an extensive inpatient rehabilitation unit with two fulltime, fully trained psychiatrists, and they lived right next to me. 8:00 So, we had all kinds of people, sentries, motor pool people, and they had the division surgeon and his staff just on the next little hill—we had all kinds of people. Interviewer: Could you describe a typical day and what a typical day would be like? Well, we had sick call every morning except Sunday, and one of the three doctors would be assigned to morning sick call. One of the doctors would be available the rest of the day for any type of urgent or emergency problems. One of the doctors would make 4 �rounds in the hospital, in our hospital, not the big hospital. In our units, where we had malaria victims too and, in fact, quite a few, so one physician would be in charge of those patients and if there was some decision about doing surgery, then if it wasn’t myself who had made the rounds and it was one of the other two general medical officers, they would ask me whether I concurred, or what we would do. 9:11 So, the afternoon, often times, was surgery and then there was a physician on call in the evening and we all strayed, basically, in the division rear. I had my own Jeep, but Chu Lai, even in 1970, was not a place you wanted to go, so I never did take my Jeep out of the division area. I could have, but I chose not to. Interviewer: Were there cases of more serious injuries that came to your facility? No, the more serious ones would go the 312th Evacuation Hospital, which was a big hospital. Every specialty of physician, or at least every specialty of surgical trained physician, was available at the 312th Evac Hospital. 10:02 Then the 27th surgical Hospital, those were the places where there were not only military casualties, but often times where civilian casualties would be taken. My role was to help take care of those that didn’t require immediate surgery, didn’t have any abdominal wounds, didn’t have any broken limbs, so mostly those were what we call soft tissue injuries, and many of those soldiers were able to return to duty and we didn’t have anybody that was really getting sick, or was having something bad happen. If that were to happen we were supposed to transfer that patient to one of the two bigger facilities. Interviewer: Did you ever have occasion to treat any of our service people who had been prisoners of war? 5 �No, I don’t think we had any prisoners of war. We certainly didn’t have any assigned to my company and I don’t think in the division rear. 11:07 There may have been some— the troops from out in the jungle, they would come to us if they were advised to by the general medical officer, or if they were close to our division area. Some of them may have been prisoners of war, but I don’t recall sitting down and talking with anybody that said, “This is my second tour of duty and the first time I had to spend some time with the Vietcong, because they captured me”. I don’t remember any conversation like that. Interviewer: Did the enemy avoid, or in any way attempt to target medical facilities? That’s a difficult question. I know that the answer in 1968 and 1969 was yes. I think by the time I was there, the attitude of the enemy was just sort of “hold in place”. 12:05 So, we had rockets come in and one of the rockets, actually, did hit the Air Force clinic, which was the same as mine. It wasn’t, though, intended specifically, that was just at the airfield and unfortunately that rocket hit the building and didn’t destroy any planes and didn’t impact the runway, but it sure did make a mess of the clinic. Interviewer: Did your facility treat enemy combatants? No, we did not---there were specific rules and regulations for treating any combatants and they had to be treated at a facility like the 312th where they had military police and security personnel. We didn’t have any military police; we had sentries, but not a unit. 13:05 During your time there, were you able to communicate regularly with your family at home? 6 �We had a pretty good system called the WATS system, and you’d have to walk over to this hill, which had all of its telecommunications towers on it, and then you would sort of take a number and sit in line, and most of the time, if you were patient, and, of course, I would do that on a day that I wasn’t assigned to sick call, or wasn’t assigned to morning call, and if you waited there, usually you could get through. When that rocket attack occurred, unfortunately, the way it was presented in the United States, including to my family, was that the army outpatient facility had been struck by a rocket and the physician and all ten other people in the facility were dead, so my family thought that was me. 14:04 I found out that’s the way it had been delivered, so that day I went to the WATS facility and tried to do whatever I could do to get ahead, beg and plead, so I could let my wife and father and mother know that I was not in the facility that had been struck by a rocket. Unfortunately, I had to go and pronounce all those people dead. That was one of the things I had to do and that was very unattractive to do that every third day, graves registration. Interviewer: Other than that, which was a memorable experience, do you have any other specific things that stand out? Well, by the time I was in Vietnam, we had terrible trouble with drug abuse. 15:04 That’s why our rehab facility was full, that’s why we had so many enlisted, and even some officers, being discharged on what was called a two twelve general discharge, and many of them had been involved with drug use and were considered unfit to remain on active duty, so I would have to go and do the physical exam that would precede their being dismissed. About everything happened, we had fraggings, we had some grenades thrown in the first sergeant's office, we had guys drive their trucks off the road, we had 7 �people shooting weapons in my company area. There were a lot of strange, memorable things that happened, but I guess I look back upon it, mostly, as the good part of it. 16:03 Most of the time it was comfortable, peaceful and maybe even boring, in the rear area. But, when it was bad, when it was terrifying, it was still really terrifying, like in 1968, everywhere. Interviewer: Did you have a feeling there were enough supplies, food, facilities for self-sanitation? Yes, I think that the people involved in supply did a terrific job. We always—we had our own staff, we had two full time cooks and some assistants and they did good work. It was a little interesting—I found out later in the year, when I went to Da Nang a couple of times, and when I went to Saigon to present this drug survey I had conducted, I saw all these people eating steak and I’ll tell you, we never saw a steak in my company. 17:04 So, here I was in the Americal Division, so I knew there was some filtration going on there, but we had excellent supplies, people, and I think that, as a group, we were very grateful to those people and even the maintenance people did a great job. If we had a truck break down, it wouldn’t take long and it would be fixed. Interviewer: What ways did you find to relieve the stress of all your experiences? Well, when I got there my medical service officer told me that they had plans to build a basketball court and I thought, “Well that’s a good thing to do”, and then a couple of days later I saw these bags of cement coming in and a couple of days later these guys in my company started putting up wooden frames and started making cement. 18:00 Somewhere along the line I asked my medical service officer, I said, “Well, where did you get all that cement?” Well, you understand he didn’t really have an answer for that 8 �and I kind of figured it out later on and I think that’s where some of our steaks went, but we did get the basketball court done. Then the Marine Air Group, MAG 12 had been into—left before I got there, but the Marines, they were dedicated to taking good care of themselves, including exercise. So, they had a racquetball, paddleball, squash, handball court made out of concrete, solid wood floors, brick walls, and I played a lot of handball. I played enough handball to have my hands get kind of pulverized, but I had one of our medical service executive officers, a wonderful guy, and he liked to play handball. 19:00 He found out that I could be teachable, so we played a lot of handball and we had good facilities. I think, probably, the people out on our firebases, I don’t know what they did to break up the tension and do something physical. We had lots of room and the firebases were just small little tops of hills and bunkers, wires, sentries, and I don’t know what those troops did to keep themselves fit, except, of course, they went out into the jungle, but we had good exercise facilities. We could swim in the ocean too and we did that fairly frequently. It was safe by the time that I was there and I don’t know if they would have done that in 1968. Interviewer: At the firebases were the medical facilities adequately protected? 20:00 Every firebase had a bunker protected clinic and the way that medevac was done, at least About through time that I knew what was going on, and that would be 1967. I had a good friend of mine who was in Vietnam as a combat commander and I learned some more from him. The firebases all had bunker protected, underground facilities where they could provide some even units of blood, do some things to triage, or stabilize, a wounded soldier, because unless it was clear that the wounded soldier had to go 9 �immediately to one of the major hospitals, he was usually taken to the firebase, because it was much closer, and would be stabilized there, given plasma, given whatever was appropriate, and then a medevac helicopter would take those wounded soldiers to the division rear. 21:11 Some of the soldiers that were taken out of the jungle, and out of combat, they were not flown in by medevac helicopters, because they were flown in by whatever helicopter pilot was bold and brave enough to go out and go there. I got to know some of those guys, because I flew around doing the drug survey—a different breed of people. Interviewer: Did you visit some of the firebase medical facilities on occasion? I visited all the firebases, all thirty one of them, because I did this drug survey, and I had a responsibility to go out there and support the doctors anyway, so I did a lot of flying in helicopters, but I decided, with two enlisted men who had been out in the My Lai area and we were talking about how bad the drug problem was, and they were saying, “Yeah, it really was”, so we decided, “Well, let’s find out how bad”, so we began to do a questionnaire. 22:07 These two guys were social workers and they knew statistics and I had majored in Psychology, so I knew statistics, so we put together a questionnaire and we distributed it. We had fourteen thousand soldiers in the Americal Division. We had about seven thousand respond and that was good information, and because of that I flew around a lot more. Interviewer: What did the survey show? During the winter of 1970 and the spring of 1971, about thirty to thirty-five percent of enlisted personnel in the rear supply, maintenance type areas, admitted to more than just occasionally. 23:05 They admitted to frequent, or habitual drug use of illegal drugs. 10 �The number of officers was less, but still pretty significant. About ten percent of the questionnaires filled out by troops that were in the field, admitted to frequent use of one or more of the illegal drugs that were available. So, when that was done, we summarized the data and I discussed it with the division surgeon and he kind of was confused. He said, “Well, alright”, and he looked it over and he said, “Well okay, let’s go talk with the division General”, so we did and he kind of, “Hmm”, and I don’t think he knew what to say, really, so a couple of days later he called me and the division surgeon back and he told the division surgeon, “I want this Captain Lulenski to present this material”. 24:05 I said, “Well, yes sir”, and he said, “I mean I want you to go out on MACV headquarters and present this material”, so I did. It was good that we were beginning to leave, because it seemed like the drug problem was overwhelming. We even had LSD sent in from the states and being used. We had two frightening episodes where it was clear that two of our soldiers had been sent LSD and they were completely blown away and they had thrown grenades. That made some of their comrades nervous enough that they turned these guys in to CID and then those two guys, they just disappeared. Interviewer: What drugs were the most used? Well, of course, the most used, or you could say the most used drug was marijuana, because it was so prevalent. 25:07 But, the problem in Vietnam was you weren’t sure what was in it. There was opium, heroin, barbiturates, methamphetamine, cocaine and hallucinogens, and of course, the largest producer of opium in the world then, and now it’s in the Golden Triangle up near the border of China, Laos and Cambodia. When I was in Saigon a CIA officer presented the whole story on how the drug trafficking was done and protected by the Kuomintang Army and sometimes flown into Saigon on Air 11 �America cargo planes, so that was a presentation I was not likely to forget. In fact, we’re going to talk about that in one of our seminars in the spring. 26:04 About the drug problem, the drug trafficking, how it was done, and there’s a great segment in the movie “American Gangster”, about exactly how it was done. It’s very much like I was told by the CIA officer. Interviewer: Were there any policies, procedures, or changes that came about as a result of your drug survey? I don’t know that my drug survey had a real impact, but I think what was happening, was that there was an attempt to try to really rehabilitate and educate the soldiers who were involved with drugs. I think in the early part of the Vietnam War they were just—if they weren’t court marshaled, or severely disciplined, or, I don’t know, worse than that maybe, if they weren’t punished severely, that would be unusual. 27:01 I think by the time I was there, it was more an effort to rehabilitate. I mean, they talk about the drug problem right now and mental illness right now, in 2009, in November. I think there’s a lot of effort that’s gone into help our troops who are presently returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, and I could see some of that when I was in Vietnam. Some attempt to—we had psychiatrists; I mean the psychiatrists weren’t there to be punitive. They were there to be of mental value. We had a psychiatric social worker who was an enlisted man, and he could sit down and try to help one of these young eighteen, or nineteen year olds who probably didn’t know what he was doing. But the drugs were everywhere, on the firebases, and get them through the wire around our perimeter. 28:04 Some of the people who cleaned our Quonset huts, or hooches, some of those people you could buy drugs from. I found that out from some of my company people. Then when two of my 12 �medics, who I work with every day, were caught by the CIA because they were heroin addicts, then I didn’t think I was so smart. Interviewer: Was part of the drug problem due to boredom or fear? You hit it right on the head, boredom was a big cause, because there was nothing to do and in fear a way to get round it and put it away, was the other reason that drugs were used. So, you did that just right. Interviewer: To go back to your time on the base, was entertainment provided, or did you go off the base for entertainment at any time? 29:05 No, the USO and all the people involved did a great job. We had an officers' club and an enlisted men’s club, and we routinely had quality entertainment. There were some groups that came from the states, or from other English speaking countries, Australia, and then we had some groups that were from the Southeast Asia area, but we had lots of entertainment and most of the time it was well done and the troops enjoyed it. We had movies regularly. Once in a while things got out of hand and then we might have some kind of scuffle going on. The doctor who was on call might get called over to the outpatient clinic and sew up somebody who got punched in the face, but it general it was a lot of entertainment in the division rear. 30:08 I don’t know what the guys out on the firebase, I don’t know what they did. I don’t think there was any room to have much entertainment on the firebase. Interviewer: Did you have any opportunity to go on leave? I got to go on one week on R&R and I went to Hawaii and met my wife. Then they had a new policy that came into effect in about 1970, I think, when things started going down 13 �in activity and ferociousness, and I was allowed to return to the United States for one week, so I had two weeks out of fifty-two where I was not in my Quonset hut, in Chu Lai. Interviewer: Back to your time at the facility there, were you awarded any citations or medals? 31:06 I was awarded a Bronze Star, but not for any particular act of bravery and we all received service medals. I can’t remember—I flew a lot, but I did not fly enough to have any award for that time. Combat medics who flew a certain amount of time received an air medal besides their combat medic award and they deserved it. So, I didn’t receive anything special, but that was alright. My friend Stanley was awarded a Silver Star for heroism beyond belief, and that happened in 1967 and he was awarded the Silver Star by the Secretary of Defense and in his interview he has a picture of that and that’s very impressive. 32:00 Interviewer: Can you tell us a little more about his experience? My friend Stan McLaughlin was company commander of the 199th Light Infantry Brigade and he was in at the worst time and in the worst area. He was in Vietnam between June of 1967 and January when he was wounded when he stepped on a mine. He was in the jungle and the Vietcong and NVA were everywhere. So, on one occasion he and his company went out and recovered a captured a long range reconnaissance platoon [patrol] and that was no easy accomplishment, because they were out in the jungle and they didn’t have Air Force support and it was almost impossible to bring helicopter support in. They rescued that group and he received the Bronze Star for that. 33:00 they had another episode where they attacked a large bunker complex that had just been put up. It was probably a regimental battalion headquarters for a NVA or VC 14 �regiment, and he led his troops into there and they, basically, wiped it out, and he exposed himself as the company commander and he received an appropriate award, so he received the Bronze Star and received the Silver Star for those two days in December. Interviewer: Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events? Well, you name it and we had it happen. There are all kinds of things that happened that were unexpected, humorous, or almost like crazy. 34:00 I think the one I remember the best was because I had just gotten there. We had an officers' party, and there were a lot of parties. We had parties in the company, which would actually include the officers and the men, as long as I said it was okay to do things together, and I thought it was, but then again I was a doc. We had lots of parties and one of the first ones I was taken to by my administrative service officer, was at the MAG 13, their outdoor patio cookout area, I mean first class, and there were officers there. I didn’t know anybody except my administrative service officer who was a 1st Lieutenant. There were a group of guys that were all hanging out together and I found out a little later that these were all warrant officers. 35:02 Warrant officers were helicopter pilots among other things and they were only eighteen or nineteen years old, so they usually wouldn’t be involved with officers' parties, but they were officers and I want to tell you, I thought I’d seen a lot of crazy things in my college years, but I never saw anything like that. I mean, I don’t know how these guys could have possibly recovered and flew their helicopters the next day, but they recovered. It was humorous and it was crazy and as I look back upon it, it was kind of like a statement on, “Man, this place is really weird. This is not the world that everybody said”. Interviewer: Did you get a photograph of those parties? 15 �No, I didn’t take my camera. I did have some pictures that I ended up saving. 36:00 Some pictures that are interesting of some of the officers and one of one of our firebases. I showed that picture when I presented about the Tet Offensive in one of our classes. The pictures of the firebase and in the spring that firebase was completely overrun, so I had some interesting pictures, but if I had known that party was going to end up like it was, yeah, I would have tried to take a camera, but I was not expecting that. Nobody got hurt, so it was still humorous and crazy, but it was not like dangerous. Interviewer: Were there pranks that were played just for fun? All the time, all the time, every day, every day and they played pranks even on the people like psychiatrists, other officers, like in the medical battalion, would play tricks on the psychiatrists. That was a big time activity in the rear, thinking up ridiculous pranks. 37:03 Interviewer: Can you give examples of some of the pranks? Well, being the company commander, I didn’t get too much involved in doing pranks. I guess I would have gotten more involved, I guess, if I was my medical service corps officer, or one of the other sergeants. Of course, a lot of these pranks and crazy behavior were between a group like officers and the enlisted men, but also between what was called “the druggies” and the other people. In many cases they were way into alcohol too much. There were a lot of pranks and silly things done and I didn’t get too much involved in it. I don’t remember any prank that was pulled on me that made me feel like an idiot. 38:02 It might have happened. Interviewer: What did you think of your fellow officers and soldiers and their preparedness and competence? 16 �Well, you know there are two kinds of officers in my division. There was the obligatory volunteer, or the enlisted officer who went to OCS, or was drafted as an enlisted man and was allowed to go to OCS, or of course, anyone who graduated from one of the military academies. The people in the higher ranks, most of those were career officers. There were big differences, big differences between the career officers and the part time limited action officers. I had to deal with five or six division surgeons, all of them were career medical officers. 39:01 Their attitude was quite a bit different than myself and the other officers that I worked with. We knew we were only going to be in the military for two years, but that was all alright. One of the things that was really disturbing to me and a lot of people, and my friend Stan, was you know, when someone got to be down to a hundred days left in their commitment, their interest would obviously start going down and they would start marking off the calendar. It became two a digit midget once you had ninety-nine days and you look at the enemy and there’s nobody counting off days who is in the enemies group. Their commitment was as long as it took, so there was a real conference between officers and officers and between viewing the time in Vietnam, on our side, and the time in Vietnam on the other side. 40:00 Interviewer: Was there a distinction between the career officer and the non-career officer in Vietnam? Well, the career officer was looking at his career and things that would benefit his career. Why did they go to Vietnam? Well, I got to know the division surgeons pretty well and I got to know one of them pretty well. Mostly they went because it was a way they could get advanced in rank and spent a tour in combat. Well, I wasn’t going to get advanced in rank by a tour in combat, nor is any other doctor who is going to be in the military for 17 �two years. It was totally inappropriate and there were a lot of differences like that. A career military officer is looking at his career and what else would you expect him to do? Interviewer: Were they more of an administrative type people rather than hands on medical people? Well, the division surgeons, as a group, especially the one who was in my same field of surgery, he was a very accomplished and dedicated surgeon. 41:08 He was in charge of the residency training program at Fitzsimons Hospital for many years. I actually talked with him several years after I got back. Obgyn division surgeon, Obstetrics/Gynecology, well I don’t think he did very much and yeah, there was a lot of administration for the division surgeon, the medical battalion officers, and those are the people I knew. I don’t know about operations officers, or security, or intelligence officers. I think a lot of the medical officers were career and they were involved in patient care, they were at the hospitals. This ears, nose and throat surgeon, Dr. Kekorian, man he handled some of the worst cases. If they had some terrible neck wound, they had fully trained ear, nose and throat surgeons at both hospitals, but he was probably the best, most experienced, head and neck surgeon. 42:08 So, he would get called in often for the worst civilian and our own American troop casualties. Interviewer: Did you think, at the time, to keep a diary of your experiences, or was it something you think you didn’t want to remember? I wish I had now, because my attitude about everything has changed a lot. For a lot of years I was just very resentful and actually, it took many years until my friend Stan and I began to feel the need to share and get rid of some of these bad feelings. I had a lot more bad feeling than he did, but there was a lot of animosity while I was there. 43:01 18 �Animosity between career officers and non-career officers, animosity between the drinking sergeants and the druggie enlisted men and we had racial problems too, no question about it. Anyone that wants to say that was not true is just trying to fool you, or are dazed and confused. We had lots of racial problems. So, there was a lot of resentment and if I had it to do over again, where I am now, I would have liked to have kept a diary, because I would have remembered a lot more. Now, since my attitude has changed and also true for my lifelong friend Stan, we have remembered things, we’d just talk, I was just with him and we remembered things that we had never remembered before. I don’t mean just a few things, I mean a lot of things, a lot of things I’ve answered to you, and you have very good questions, are things that if you’d asked me ten years ago I probably would have said--I probably would have just sat here and said nothing. 44:06 So, I think there’s a lot of goodness that comes out of history project, things we’re doing now, today, the class we’re holding today, here is Southwest Michigan and I think it’s even changed the attitude of the American people. If you were here for our week-end last year, and if you could come for our veteran, Vietnam Veterans week-end this coming June, where we’re going to have the eighty percent replica of the Vietnam War memorial, there’s been a huge change, people want to know, they want to hear what veterans have to say, they want to know what their feelings are and they don’t necessarily think the Vietnam War was a good idea, but there’s no reason to blame our soldiers, especially not the ones who either enlisted, or were drafted, or were obligatory volunteers. 45:02 Interviewer: did you have a chance to interact with any of the Vietnamese? 19 �Yes, I was in charge of the medical assistance program where we went to help the Vietnamese every other Saturday, in a village that was on an island in the river that was near Chu Lai, and I don’t know the name of the river, but maybe I did at one time, but we interacted with them a lot, because we would go every other Saturday morning and we— actually I had the authority then, in some cases, if there was really a sick child, or an adult with bad infection, I had the authority to have that person taken by, we had a medevac helicopter, not one that stayed there . We would never have a helicopter stay in a place like that; they would come and drop us off. We had the authority, we had two radio operators. And we had the authority to call in the medical helicopter if I decided that we were going to send this child to the hospital. 46:05 We interacted pretty well there—it was not like the civil action programs which we learned about in our course. Those people, like the leader of our group, Don Alsbro, they interacted with the people all the time. Fred McLaughlin, helped the people relocate in a fortified hamlet. He interacted with the people all the time and I appreciated getting to know something about the Vietnamese and their history. I never learned much of the language. There’s always problems trying to interact with the people, and one Saturday when our helicopter dropped us off and flew away and we walked around the building where we had always had the medical assistance program—the back of the building was where we landed and that was still there, but the front of the building was gone and there were no people there. There were some graves there from the home security forces, and the Vietcong were proving that, “You may think that this is secure and you may have your children taken care of by these Americans, but you’re wrong”. 47:07 then we didn’t do any more medical assistance programs. 20 �Interviewer: How did the Vietnamese people treat you, or respond to you, other than in the formal setting where you’re trying to help treat them, but in day to day interaction? The day to day interaction was limited to the Vietnamese that were either working, or in something that involved our military, so we had people that would come in and actually clean the clothes, they’re called “hooch maids’, and there wasn’t much interaction there. It was like servants and you didn’t have much opportunity to get to know people. Now, I know a lot more about how many of our soldiers did get to know people, but I didn’t have that opportunity. I told you I never went beyond the fence, so I never, really, was going to have the time to spend, to sit down and try to understand. 48:10 But, I’m glad we had those civil action programs. Now, a group of our people just went back and the Vietnamese are, at least apparently, half glad that we were there. They are very friendly and the animosity that you might think would be overwhelming, the difference in political philosophy that’s still there, the group that went from our “Lest We forget” group, they’re going to present their experience , but I already know it was terrific. Interviewer: Now, when you became a “two digit midget”, did your behavior change at all? Not much, not much, but I’ll give you an example that I remember now, and I don’t know why I remember it now. There were a lot of bad things that physicians had to do and orthopedic physicians at the hospitals still had to do a lot of amputations. 49:08 It wasn’t like the Civil War, but it was still bad and I found out from various physicians that it was a syndrome among orthopedic surgeons, a pattern of behavior, when they get down to a certain limited few days left, they wouldn’t want to do any more amputations. They 21 �would try to get one of the other surgeons to do it and that was not just isolated, it was like, “I don’t want to do this any more, it’s not why I became a physician. I don’t want to spend time doing amputations”, so there’s a good example of what happens when you get down near the end, among medical personnel. Interviewer: Were there any certain precautions you had to take going into the villages? No, I didn’t go into the villages. 50:06 I didn’t ever come close to getting hit by a rocket, but we all kind of just sort of hid out, you know we hid out. We kind of stayed in our own area. We didn’t have a desire—of course I went to firebases, but we didn’t have a desire to go out there, because it was pretty safe where we were. Interviewer: Do you recall the day you left? I’m a little hesitant to tell you what happened when I left, because up to this point I don’t think anybody would say that I was unbalanced, but leaving Vietnam was an incredible horror show, an incredible and horrific time for me. 51:03 I’ll sum it up in two minutes and then we can finish our interview. I was supposed to go from Chu Lai to Da Nang and from Da Nang to Cam Ranh Bay, everyone left from Cam Ranh Bay. I had to have my 201 file and the clever doctor that I was, I found out the sooner you sign into Cam Ranh Bay, the sooner you leave the country, you don’t have to wait until your deros date, you can leave early and boy that was exciting, and so exciting I didn’t, even hardly, want to tell anybody else. So, I got all ready to go and I go over to get my 201 file and it’s not there. It’s not there and I’ve been there for three hundred and sixth two days, how could it not be there? That I remember all very well, “Don’t know”, “Well, find out”, and they found out, “Well, it’s in Da Nang, it’s a company in Da Nang”, “Well, I’ve never been in 22 �a company in Da Nang”. 52:04 So, then I had the privilege to go the Adjutant General's office and boy, whoever saw me, and fortunately it wasn’t Don, because he was in the Adjutant General's office, in that same division, but it wasn’t him. Some officer had to put up with me demanding why my 201 file had been misplaced. Finally the Adjutant General of the division demanded, his medical company commander talk to the Adjutant General and I made enough of a stink that I got to and he was not happy with me either, but he had a helicopter go and get my 201 file. He brought it back, I got in the plane and flew to Da Nang and the plane was overbooked. They take us off the plane and we sat in the tarmac about eight hours until that plane went down to Cam Ranh Bay and came back. Then we got on the plane in the dark, went down to Cam Ranh Bay and now the time for signing in early is pretty much gone away, but that was nothing compared to the next couple days. 53:02 My wallet fell out of my pants and I had no ID card for about six hours total panic. I went in the same door to take my duffle bag and I was supposed to hand my manifest in and go out the other door, but instead I went back out the same door I came in, so now I didn’t have a seat on the plane. I went to the officers' club and was sitting there, and the wallet was returned by a warrant officer, by the way. I’m sitting there and this guy comes in and says, “Is there a Captain Lulenski here?” As soon as he said that I looked at my briefcase and thought, “Oh no, you didn’t hand your manifest in”. He comes over and I said, “I know why you’re here”, and he said, “Captain, you do not have a seat on the plane”. I remember saying, “Just do something, I mean, get me on the next plane”. 54:02 Well, before that happened, that night we were all in the officers barracks and just to prove a point some sapper—some sappers came in and they blew up one of those huge oil depots, storage depots like we had here on the 23 �island, St. Joe river, gigantic, blew it up, blew some of the officers in the building I was in out of their bunks, and now the Cam Ranh Bay airport is closed and it’s on red alert. Nobody’s going to get a new manifest, nobody’s going to get on a plane, no planes are going to leave, and no planes are going to come in. That went on for two days, everything was totally shut down and the explosion was—I can’t describe it, I mean, it was like an atomic bomb and it was close, straight at the end of the runway. 55:02 So, finally I did get some sergeant to go and take me and I got a new manifest. Now, I’m kind of past my date that I was supposed to leave, I mean I’ve been there forever now, but I’m gonna get on the plane and I go and get up on the stairs and this is the last thing I’ll finish with. There’s a drug smelling dog there with some type of MP and he sees I’m a Captain in the medical corps, its right here, and he said, “Captain, do you have and type of drugs or illegal weapons?” I said, “I only have a prescription for sleep medicine from one of my fellow medical officers”. He looked at it, it was a prescription, it was my name, it was a benign sleep medicine, and he said, “You can put that in my hat and you can get on the plane”. 56:01 I looked at him and I looked at the dog, looked at the plane and I got on the plane. That was my last moment in Vietnam. Interviewer: A memorable one and because of your delay, your family was probably waiting for you to arrive, could you contact them? No, when the base is on “red alert” you don’t contact anybody, and once you’re in the plane you don’t contact anybody. I contacted them when I got to Tacoma, Washington. Travis Air Force Base, it was Travis. 24 �Interviewer: Now you mentioned one friendship that you made and continued after your service. Were you involved, or did you have a number of others you were in contact with? No, and that’s because of the nature of being there, but my friend Stan and I went to high school together and I just had dinner with he and his wife, and my wife, about three days ago. 57:01 We were very close before and stayed that way. I’ve never gone to a reunion of the Americal Division, so I’ve never had the chance to see if any of the other medical officers were interested. I maintained contact with two medical officers who served with me for a while, but I guess I should call Dick Rose up , I think I should, but now, you know, I’m thinking about going back to a reunion of the Americal, because there were good people there, and we have some people here that were in the Americal and they’re good people. Interviewer: Now, did your medical experience in the service help guide you to your current specialty? I had to make a decision of a specialty to go into before I went into the military, but my experience there solidified my dedication to being a surgeon, well my father was a surgeon too. 58:03 He was a surgeon with the 82nd Airborne. He was fully trained and I was kind of going down that path anyway, but I think it strengthened my personal desire to be a surgeon. I was very impressed with the dedication of the medical officers. I was overwhelmingly awed by the heroism and the dedication of the corpsmen, the medical corpsmen combat medics. I guess it certainly has changed my view of nurses and people that I work with that are in medicine, changed my attitude when I was in my training because of the way those people acted and how long they worked. We had that Firebase 25 �Maryann overrun and there were a hundred and forty casualties, about half were killed and the other half was wounded. 59:01 I went over and helped out for a while because they needed every surgeon they could find to help, all the ones that were in charge of specialties, even eye surgery, and those people like my father, they just kept on, they just kept on twenty –four hours. I know they did—my father operated for seventy hours behind German lines on D-Day, D-Day plus one, so I guess the military brings out the best in a lot of people, certainly some of the doctors I know, it did. Interviewer: Can you describe your arrival back in the states; did you have any kind of re- indoctrination to normalcy then? No, coming back to the states was just get out of your uniform as fast you could and hope that you weren’t going to be attacked by some group, because you were a “hateful baby killer”. 60:00 Interviewer: Were you afraid of that? You bet, yup, and it was pretty much the same, there was not anybody gonna say, “Welcome Home, you did a great job”. Stan, when he got to his assignment place, he figured, you know, someone would say something—here’s a guy with Vietnamese decorations for doing work in the hamlet and the Silver Star, the Bronze Star with V, Bronze Star, this is a military hero and no one said anything. They said, “You’re going to go to your next assignment at such and such”, and that’s kind of the way with me, they said, “You’re going to Fort Carson Colorado”, and I said, “Okay”. So, it’s not too surprising that when I left the service, I didn’t continue in the reserves. But, it was the American public had turned so much against it by 1971. 1:01 You could just feel the 26 �coldness and the—actually it was worse than coldness, there was actually absolute hate— didn’t want to be in the war. Interviewer: Do you see any similarities between that and what we’re seeing today? Yeah, we don’t have time for that hour, but I sure do, sure do, that nature of the warfare, and the most recent thing is the taking away of many free fire zones, exactly the way it was when I was there. You can see the enemy, but you can’t shoot the enemy. Interviewer: Is there anything else you would like to talk about? No, it’s been excellent and I want to congratulate you on an excellent job and if you developed those questions yourself then you are a special person. 1:50 Interviewer: Thank you for coming. 27 �28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LulenskiG1032V Title A name given to the resource Lulenski, Gary (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lulenski, Gary Description An account of the resource Dr. Gary Lulenski was an ‘obligatory volunteer' and held the rank of captain for the entirety of his service because of his previous medical schooling. He was stationed in Chu Lai, Vietnam as a Medical Company Commander for the Americal Division. Completed a large-scale drug survey which showed interesting trends. His service was from 1970-1971. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Massa, Richard (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-19 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f2471e88df568b62289dc51f7aa7f618.m4v ece03e03b052939b66d49da2782fd26f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/50d3ebac9e0d6bc87dc57de3bc7abc11.pdf 8a3293b19a66def9c8f2d57546a73185 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project John Lund Vietnam War 54 minutes 43 seconds (00:00:12) Early Life -Born in Cadillac, Michigan, in 1950 -Went through Cadillac's public schools -Father was in the rubber business and worked as an automotive supplier (00:01:00) Enlisting in the Army & Vietnam War -Parents couldn't pay for his college -Saw the GI Bill as a chance to go to college -Father served during World War II on a B-17 bomber -Uncle served with the Marines in WWII, and uncle flew a P-51 Mustang in WWII -Didn't know much about the Vietnam War -Saw recruiting posters talking about travel and exciting opportunities -Never saw any anti-war movements or anti-war sentiments in Cadillac -In July 1969 he reported for basic training -Had enlisted in the Army while in high school -Went to Detroit in April or May 1969 for his physical -Saw men trying to get out of getting drafted -Faked incontinence, psychological instability, and other health problems -Worked before going to basic training (00:04:00) Basic Training -Sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for basic training -Remembers the drill sergeant being intimidating -Wen through processing -Had another physical and vaccinations -Went on marches, low crawled under barbed wire, and had to go on the low bars before breakfast -Broken down and rebuilt as a soldier -Instilling psychological and physical discipline -Went on forced marches during the day and at night -Grew up spending time outdoors, so he adjusted well -Recruits from the inner city had difficulty adjusting to the Army -Some men didn't want to be there -Basic training lasted eight to ten week (00:06:47) Advanced Infantry Training -After one week of leave he reported to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for advanced infantry training -Traveled by bus to Fort Polk -Had one overnight stay -Fort Polk is located in the southwest corner of the state -Received advanced infantry training and more weapons training -Received Jungle Training -Went through mock-up Vietnamese villages and learned counter-insurgency strategies -Taught how to act if captured -What to say, what not to say, and how to survive -Taught some of the Vietnamese language and customs �-Roughly a third of the trainers had served in Vietnam -Some of them talked about their experiences -Another eight to ten weeks of training (00:09:07) Deployment to Vietnam -Came home for two weeks -Flew out of Detroit to Chicago, then up to Alaska, over to Japan -From Japan flew to Cam Ranh Bay, South Vietnam -Landed during the day -Massive Air Force base -First impression of Vietnam: hot and humid -Took a shower and went through a briefing -Stayed at Cam Ranh Bay for two or three days -Waiting for his assignment -Had orders to go north (00:11:13) Assignment to 101st Airborne Division -Flew north to Da Nang on a C-130, then taken by truck to Camp Sally -Located off of Highway 1 near Camp Evans and north of Phu Bai -Assigned to Recon in the 2nd Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division -Going on long range patrols -Recon teams supported the 501st Infantry Regiment and the 506th Infantry Regiment -Operating near the Laotian border -Joined his team at a firebase -Greeted by a sergeant -Ranger and a down to earth man -Tried to teach John the basics of surviving in Vietnam (00:14:00) Recon Missions -On call all the time -Teams were sent out at night for their missions -Sometimes sent as emergency responders if a unit was pinned down in the field -Usually traveled on rivers -Better to cover their tracks -Ate freeze-dried food -Better than the regular Army rations -Usually operated as six man teams, including a medic -Sometimes had a sniper operating with them -Missions could last half of a day to two weeks depending on the nature of the mission -First mission happened near Christmas 1969 -Operating near the top of the A Shau Valley -Minimal enemy activity -January to March 1970 noticed an increase in enemy activity -Lost a team member in March 1970 -Operated in the jungle most of the time -Saw black jaguars [leopards], spiders, monkeys, apes, land leeches, and snakes -Kept their distance and never had to kill any larger animals -Sent in to investigate signs of enemy activity -Collect information without making contact then get out of the area -Usually rappelled into areas as opposed to landing a helicopter in the jungle -Used the jungle penetrator systems to punch through the triple canopy jungle -Easiest way to extract wounded from the jungle �-Sometimes when they got to a landing zone the North Vietnamese ambushed them -Dropped off two to three kilometers from the patrol area -Moved at night and hunkered down during the day (00:18:33) Weapons & Supplies -Carried the M-16 assault rifle, CAR-15 carbine, shotguns, or sniper rifles -Carried weapon of choice and as much ammunition as possible -Traveled light so they could move fast -Sometimes had to run from the enemy instead of engaging them (00:19:22) Enemy Contact -Tried to push through the jungle and avoided established trails -Never cut their own trails -Followed streams -Avoiding the North Vietnamese -North Vietnamese booby-trapped existing trails -Knew of North Vietnamese troops that had been in South Vietnam for ten years -Some of the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong had fought the French since the 1940s -North Vietnamese were dedicated fighters -Found underground bunker complexes, underground hospitals, and ammunition caches -Some of the hospitals still had fresh blood and supplies -Some of the bunker complexes still had enemy occupants -Sometimes went in knowing there were North Vietnamese, sometimes just stumbled on them -During the monsoon season enemy activity subsided -Monsoons made it difficult for the helicopters -Black Widow Squadron helicopters flew in any weather to drop off and extract soldiers (00:22:26) Getting Wounded -On April 23, 1970, he got wounded -One week before they were operating near Firebase Ripcord -Note: Firebase – artillery outpost usually accessed by helicopters; away from larger base -Taking a lot of mortar and .51 caliber machine gun fire -Trying to find the enemy positions so they could be destroyed -They walked into an ambush -Had to figure out the direction of the enemy fire -Line company of infantry sent in to help John's recon team -The sergeant was killed and he got wounded -Helicopter pilots braved the enemy fire and flew in to evacuate them (00:24:32) Recovering from Wound -Flown to a field hospital in Da Nang -Shot in the right hand and the neck while trying to get to cover -Around the second or third week of May he was flown to the Air Force hospital in Cam Ranh Bay -Hot food, nurses, and a room to himself -Felt like being a civilian -Spent three weeks there doing rehabilitation (00:25:50) Battle of Firebase Ripcord -Rejoined Recon with three new teams -Two teams had been wiped out at Firebase Henderson while he was in the hopsital nd -2 Battalion of the 506th Infantry Regiment established Firebase Ripcord on March 12, 1970 [date of first attempt—firebase actually set up starting April 11] -Note: Firebase capable of destroying North Vietnamese supplies in the A Shau Valley -Had been working in the A Shau Valley since January 1970 �-Got close to Firebase Ripcord during the first week of July 1970 -Friend was killed near Ripcord on July 9 -Working with Alpha and Bravo companies of the 2nd Battalion -They had set out landmines, and nobody told the recon teams -His friend walked into the minefield and set off one of the mines -On July 14 they assaulted Hill 1000 with Alpha and Bravo companies -Expected bird calls and animal noises in the jungle, but near Hill 1000 the jungle was silent -Expected enemy resistance, but didn't expect as much resistance as they encountered -North Vietnamese had the high ground and bunkers -Seemingly endless supply of North Vietnamese troops -Pinned down by mortar fire and rocket-propelled grenades -Alpha and Bravo were losing men -Retreated to the initial drop zone -Bullets coming from everywhere -South Vietnamese pilots in World War II planes provided close air support -Good pilots -Had more air support than artillery support -Continued recon missions after July 14 and never participated in an assault again -Heard the North Vietnamese bombardment of Firebase Ripcord -Saw helicopters going to and leaving Ripcord -Didn't know the state of the battle -Collected some North Vietnamese documents during the battle, but never tapped into telephone lines (00:33:29) Fall of Firebase Ripcord -Heard about the plan to evacuate Firebase Ripcord -Evacuation of the firebase began on July 22 -Last American personnel in the area left on July 23 -Once everyone had been evacuated B-52 bombers destroyed the base -Sent to Camp Evans -After Camp Evans they drove down to Phu Bai -Passed through Hue en route -First time seeing civilians (00:34:37) Stationed at Firebase Bastogne -Taken to Firebase Bastogne near Hue -Firebase had a road leading to and away from it -Most firebases relied on helicopters -In the hills, but not in the A Shau Valley -Lost some recon men during patrols in the area (00:36:34) R&R -Had an R&R at Eagle Beach in Vietnam -Flown straight from the field to Eagle Beach, still had their weapons -Supposed to be there for two or three days -Swam and drank -Line company got hit in the A Shau Valley -Ordered to sober up to go save the trapped infantry -Got one week of R&R in Sydney, Australia -Went to bars, spent money, and had interesting experiences -Ran into a friend from Cadillac who was in the Air Force -Not good to go back to Vietnam (00:39:04) Stationed at Phu Bai �-Stationed at Phu Bai for the rest of his tour -Given a hut and allowed to keep his weapon -Didn't go on recon patrols while at Phu Bai -Felt insecure at a larger base -Worked in supply -Stationed there for 2 ½ months -Final duty station in Vietnam (00:40:12) Morale & Discipline Problems -Didn't like Phu Bai due to morale problems -No sense of camaraderie -White and black soldiers self-segregated, and he didn't like that -A lot of soldiers smoked weed -He didn't, but he drank beer -There were fights between black and white soldiers -Didn't understand it, because they needed to focus on their mission -Never saw heroin use at Phu Bai (00:42:20) End of Tour -Flew home via Tiger Airlines (chartered airliners for soldiers in Vietnam) -Passengers cheered when they left Vietnamese airspace -Landed at Seattle -Greeted by protestors at the airport -Protestors shouted insults at them and threw things at them -Given 45 days of leave (00:43:22) End of Service -After his leave ended he drove from Cadillac to Fort Ord, California -Arrived there in January 1971 -Didn't like the formality of the base -He was a sergeant at the time -Transferred to Fort Hunter Liggett, California -Working with civilian personnel -Testing laser weaponry -Fascinated him -Worked with Navy personnel -Lived in Salinas, California, and stayed there until April 1971 -Not the best community for servicemen, but not the worst either (00:45:36) Reflections on Vietnam -Strong sense of camaraderie in recon -Some good missions, and some bad missions -Remembers a helicopter being shot down near their position -Pilot survived and stayed with them in the field for a few days -Sometimes crossed into Laos, but doesn't remember anything distinct about those occasions -Recon team's call sign was ―Scorpio‖ -Supposed to change their call sign with every mission, but they liked the name -Had a low chance of survival -If you lived for one month you were considered an ―old timer‖ -All of the lieutenants were Rangers, and some of the sergeants were Rangers (00:47:42) Life after the War -Stayed with his parents -Wouldn't sleep in his bed and had recurring nightmares �-Didn't leave the house for a week -Remembers being in downtown Cadillac and a car backfired -Unconsciously reacted and dove to the ground -Got a job working in the woods -Eight hours a day working by himself -Attended and graduated from Northwestern Michigan College in Traverse City -Studied conservation -Got into automotive rubber supply in Cadillac -Went back to college in 1980 to study applied science – aviation -Learned how to build a plane, and built a plane with his father -Took a while to readjust to civilian life -Had to focus on tasks to ignore the bad memories -Stays away from anything that might trigger his trauma (00:51:27) Reflections on Service -Sense of camaraderie -Taught him how to work with people -Chance to see Vietnamese and Australian cultures -Admired the Kit Carson Scouts, and even respected the North Vietnamese soldiers' dedication -Also had a deep respect for the Republic of Korea soldiers -Hopes the Kit Carson Scouts made it out of Vietnam before South Vietnam fell -Note: Kit Carson Scouts were North Vietnamese troops that defected to South Vietnam -Always got the best Kit Carson Scouts (00:53:02) Vietnamese Civilians -Had civilians at the base on Phu Bai -Standoffish -Gave haircuts to American troops -Mostly kept to themselves and did their jobs -Never stayed in civilian population centers -Closest he got to that was passing through Hue -Ordered not to shoot any water buffalo -Spent most of his time on larger bases or firebases � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LundJ1943V Title A name given to the resource Lund, John (Interview outline and video), 2016 Description An account of the resource John Lund was born in Cadillac, Michigan, in 1950. In the spring of 1969 he enlisted in the Army, and after graduating from high school reported for duty in July 1969. He received Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and then received Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. He deployed to Vietnam in late 1969. At Camp Sally he was assigned to a Recon unit in the 2nd Battalion, of the 501st Infantry Regiment, in the 101st Airborne Division. In December 1969 he went on his first recon mission. From January through March 1970 he went on patrols in the A Shau Valley, and was wounded on April 23, 1970. After recovering he rejoined his recon unit and conducted patrols around Firebase Ripcord until its total evacuation on July 23, 1970. After the fall of Firebase Ripcord he went on recon missions around Firebase Bastogne until being reassigned to Phu Bai. His tour ended in late 1970, and in January 1971 he reported to Fort Ord, California. He completed his enlistment at Fort Hunter Liggett, California. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lund, John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-08-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25b20bed38fa4f16f1fb50fafcf3d1ac.pdf 67302b907eaa7a1d2ab30020cb125311 PDF Text Text ���� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CWLundy Title A name given to the resource Harriet Lundy from Thomas Lundy, Oct. 9, 1862 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1862 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lundy, Thomas Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army. Michigan Infantry Regiment, 19th (1862-1865) United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Cincinnati (Ohio) Lawrenceburg (Ind.) Description An account of the resource Letter from Thomas Lundy, a soldier in the Michigan 19th Infantry, describing his time in a Cincinnati hospital. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/775cebdf47f36282deae1147a73ca584.mp4 c3ae25b7559a8b42e07156128a345830 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f62c55732feaddd7b18096bf460de350.pdf 49e90600927c29ca8e4465376a879a9e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Alan Lust (23:15) (01:00) Background Information • Served in the Air Force, 1971-1979 • He was born in Ohio and worked for a bus company that his uncle owned before joining the service • He worked there from the time he was 18 till he was 21 and does not recommend working for anyone that you are related to • He went to visit a Navy recruiter, but they were at lunch • There was a Marines and Army recruiter, but he was not interested in those branches, so he wound up at the Air Force recruitment building (3:10) Travel • Al traveled to an air base in Germany • He was in Thailand for 6 months • He spent 5 years working with bombers in North Carolina • Al spent his last year of service in Korea (3:50) Thailand • They had heard that the Viet Cong were planning to attack their base • They were mortared and shot at many times in Thailand and it was not fun at all • Al was never too fearful because he never experienced heavy combat • He worked with F-4s that carried many radar guided missiles (7:30) Entertainment • The men played a lot of cards • They wrote letters back to their families and friends • He never called the states because it cost about $9 per minute • He was very stressed out and drank heavily, which he is not proud of (11:00) Christmas in Thailand in 1972 • They spent Christmas loading bombs; it was not a good Christmas knowing that what you were doing might kill many people (13:45) The End of His Time in the Service • Al left Korea and headed towards California • He had decided that he wanted to go to college • He was in North Carolina when the war ended and he thought it was all a huge waste; there were so many deaths and we did not accomplish our goal �(17:05) Al’s Career • He wanted to go to college to become a Pastor • Al worked on a mission dealing with the homeless for 16 years • He was a rescue mission chaplain and a substance abuse counselor (18:20) Looking Back • Al believes that war is terrible and it is ironic because there are things that are worse than war, such as “passiveness in the face of evil” • He believes that was is necessary when power lies in the hands of someone evil • He has gained much pride and satisfaction from his time spent in the service • A military experience is very beneficial for any young man; it provides responsibility and experience • Al’s highest rank was E-5 and he was in the Air Force from 1971-79 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LustJ_001A Title A name given to the resource Lust, Alan John (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lust, Alan John Description An account of the resource Al Lust was born in Ohio in 1950 and enlisted in the United States Air Force in 1971. Al served in Germany, Thailand, and Korea. While in Thailand, Al worked on flight missions against the Viet Cong. Al stated that he was mortared and shot at many times but never experienced any heavy combat. After his time in the Air Force, Al worked on a mission dealing with the homeless for 16 years. He also was a rescue mission chaplain and a substance abuse counselor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McAlpine, John (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-05-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b74ec057d8d3a5e6495ba124071e4c92.mp4 eeca720846c64a09cf727ba2e342099d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec986f9ef610b89f2ac18f01dcd51a5f.pdf 37c919ffdb2674088a68b02167ca92d0 PDF Text Text GrandValleyStateUniversity Veterans History Project World War II Jay Lutke (1:05:04) Background Information (00:02)    Born in Michigan in May of 1918. (00:02) Jay was inducted into the Army on May 1st (1943) just before his 27th [25th?] birthday. (00:12) At the time of his draft, Jay was married and had 2 girls. (00:46) Basic Training (1:35)      He attended basic training at Fort KnoxKentucky. (1:39) Jay recalls having to carry 60 lb. packs up and down Misery Hill while at FortKnox. (2:05) Jay and one of his friends from training would often go to Tennessee during the weekends. This was without any passes. (2:50) Overall Jay enjoyed his time in basic. He was in good physical shape at the time. (4:08) Jay served in the 702nd Tank Battalion attached to the 8th Infantry Division in the 3rd Army. (5:00) Voyage overseas (5:20)    Jay shipped out of New York. (5:20) There some men who got sick on the way to Europe. Going back, however in November [1945?], there were high swells that caused sea sickness. (5:47) Jay arrived in SouthamptonEngland, in late summer of 1943. He soon moved to LiverpoolEngland [possibly the other way around?] (7:16) Service in ()           Though the men were taught all positions in a tank in training, Jay served specifically as a gunner. (8:01) Jay believed the differences between the German tanks and the American was like the differences between a rifle and a BB gun. (8:55) The Sherman tanks could outmaneuver the German tanks. (9:13) Jay was brought to his company by truck. On the day of his arrival [in France?] the First Sergeant had been killed. Jay was later assigned to do guard duty. (10:34) Jay was with his company for approx. 1 week before he was assigned a tank. (11:30) He spent much of his service in the countryside of France ultimately ending in Austria. (12:12) For combat, the armored units led the way to push back the enemy forces leaving only pockets of hostiles behind. Jay was assigned to clear out these pockets. (13:11) The unit did take many casualties. (13:45) While in Austria, Jay fraternized with a civilian and helped him get a meal. The man was struggling to get enough to eat. (14:45) While getting the man food, Jay’s company left without him. He got a ride with a jeep back to his company. (16:22) � Description of the inside of a Sherman Tank. (17:40) Action (18:38)          Jay once went on a night attack with no reconnaissance. The men traveled to a town they were to take. But as the tank traveled, it got stuck against a tree on a hill. (18:42) Jay had to disable all of the guns after the wreck. This means that the .30 and .50. caliber machine guns needed to be removed from the tank. (20:16) A flare was lit to signal the tank wreck. This in turn gave away the company’s position. The men were then fired upon. (20:40) After the men abandoned the tank, they needed to go back to it to recover several grease guns. (21:50) The men did encounter some German soldiers. They did not fire upon them as to not give away their position. (22:15) The men came to a clearing that they had to cross while taking fire. Jay ran across the field in a zigzag motion to avoid being hit. (23:25) On a different occasion, Jay’s unit pulled into a camp with barracks. The men were excited to get a good night’s sleep. Instead the men had to serve guard. (25:13) Jay had to clear pockets fairly regularly. This task was shared between another tank companies. (28:04) Jay did meet General George Patton while traveling through France. (30:34) Life During Service (32:06)               During winter, the tanks got very cold. The hatches were almost always left open. Men did sleep under the tank to keep warm. (32:11) When there were no company cooks around, the men survived on C rations. these rations could be best described as edible. (33:05) As the end of the war approached, Jay did encounter some civilian resistance. (34:30) Jay was wounded and was awarded the Purple Heart. (35:59) While in Austria, Jay stayed with the tank while his fellow soldiers looted a castle. While guarding the tank he spotted some deer and shot them. (36:30) Jay was offered a goose dinner by some civilians he had met while traveling. (38:20) Jay also tried fishing by dropping hand grenades in the deepest part of a creek. (36:00) Jay was nearly court martialed after he shot some deer with the .50 caliber machine gun. (37:00) While in town, Jay and several of his friends found a VW beetle. After riding it for a while, the men were ordered to evacuate the vehicle and leave it. (42:00) Jay’s officers were very highly respected. They acted less as officers and more alike the common soldiers. This made them more relatable and thus amiable to the common man. (44:54) The men were able to write to his family. (45:40) The stress, particularly with dealing with the cold, was hard to take for Jay. (36:37) The men were able to get a reasonable amount of sleep, despite having to serve 2 hours of guard duty every night. (48:00) Jay was able to make several close friendships while overseas. (50:43) End of War and Service (51:54)  Many of the cities that Jay passed through in Germany were completely destroyed. (52:40) �     For [after?] 6 months (from May 1945-November 1945) Jay lived in a Cigarette camp [camp near the coast used for processing returning soldiers]. (53:34) The men spent much of this time after the German surrender playing pickup ball games and watching movies. (53:41) The older generation of the German people was much more passive about the Americans moving in than the younger ones. (54:10) While voyaging home in November of 1945 the ship experienced 30 ft. swells. (56:17) Jay was sent to FortMeade [Dix?] New Jersey once arriving in the U.S. where he was discharged. He was given a ticked for a train back to Michigan. (57:42) Life after Service (59:00)     Jay’s father, who worked as a builder, was anxious to get Jay back to work. He then began a career in construction. (59:10) His time in the service gave him lots of perspective on the topic of war. (1:00:00) Jay is thankful for his service and was thankful that he remained safe. (1:02:16) All together Jays’ service was approx. 2 years (May of 1943-November of 1945). (1:03:11) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LutkeJ1085V Title A name given to the resource Lutke, Jay (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lutke, Jay Description An account of the resource Jay Lutke, born in Michigan in May of 1918, served in the U.S. Army from approximately May 1943-Novmeber 1945 in Europe during World War II. After completing his basic training at Fort Knox Kentucky, Jay was assigned to the 702nd Tank Battalion attached to the 8th Infantry Division in the 3rd Army. Jay spent his service traveling through France and Austria clearing pockets of resistance, and remained in Austria and Germany for about six months after the German surrender. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bolthouse, Marv (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-02 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01c8ade2d2aa658810e857ee0e39b9d7.mp4 e46488a260b7a74ee3c51d663758950a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97edd028f5d50108a9344456848923ca.pdf cb41375c154e83b050a149ca0e10a923 PDF Text Text Lutz, John Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: John Lutz Length of Interview: (1:02:08) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with John Lutz of Grosse Pointe Shores, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay John start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Brooklyn, New York on May the 24th, 1919. That puts me a little over 100 years old. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you live in Brooklyn or where did you live when you were a kid?” (00:37) When I was kid– Actually before Brooklyn my mother went down to Brooklyn to have her baby, which was me, but actually my mother and father were living in the Bronx, New York at that time. We were there for about four or five years and then moved to a house out in what they call Queens, which is another borough of New York city and I stayed there until I went to college in– I went to MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Interviewer: “Alright, now what was your family doing for a living, what kind of job did your father have?” My father was a manager of a textile company with headquarters in New York City and manufacturing was done, I think it was Passaic, New Jersey. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go to high school?” I went to high school in Queens. Interviewer: “Do you remember which high school you attended?” Yeah, Newtown high school still in operation, I still bring it up occasionally on my computer to see what’s going on there and things are still going just the way I left them. Interviewer: “Alright, and what– When did you graduate?” 1936 and that’s when I went to college. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were just 17 at that point?” Yes. (2:15) Interviewer: “Okay, alright and now did you finish a year early or did you just time it right? Because normally graduate– You start college at 18 but you were still just 17, anyway.” I didn’t time it, it was just the way it came out. Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you go to MIT?” Well basically I guess it was I always wanted to be an engineer and I always wanted to go to the toughest school and my advisor in high school would always ask the students where they want to go, what they want to do, and when I mentioned to them that I wanted to go to MIT I can still hear them laughing and their “Oh you’ll never get in there.” That kind of a thing, and actually I graduated from Newtown high school in Queens with an extremely high grade average which got me right into MIT without any further examinations. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you were good enough after all. Well was Newtown a good high school as far as you can tell?” Yes, at the time it was very good. It’s of course, like many inner cities– And that I’d consider kind of inner city– Interviewer: “It is now.” The quality of education has, I think, deteriorated I don’t think the high school is quite as good as it used to be. Interviewer: “Okay, but you did well enough that MIT just went ahead and took you. Okay, now and then when you got to MIT did you find that you were well prepared for the classes or did you have to catch up?” (4:18) No, I wasn’t well prepared but I had to really work at– Work very hard in order to keep up, most– I would say a good percentage of the students that went to MIT went at least a year, maybe two years, to another college and then transferred in. So they had quite a background advantage over me, but I squeezed through. Interviewer: “Okay, you got through, alright and what degree did you take?” I think it was just a bachelor’s degree, basically in automotive engineering. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and what year did you graduate?” 1940. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you graduated?” �Lutz, John The funnest job I took was with a company down in Providence, Rhode Island called The Universal Winding Company and they had quite a program for new graduates where they would train them in all the different aspects of the manufacturing. We work in the machine shop, we work in the drafting department, we work in the foundry, we do all sorts of– And the background sounded good to me so I went down there until… Let’s see I’m just trying to figure out now what happened then, this, that job was in Providence, Rhode Island and just about every weekend I used to go up to Cambridge and see my old buddies and visit and so forth, and the word got around up there that one of the professors that I had, his name was Carl Fenstrom, was appointed the general manager of a newly formed shipyard sponsored by Newport News shipbuilding company, which was in Newport News, Rhode Island but– Interviewer: “Well Newport New is in Virginia.” It was Virginia, but this ship yard was being built in Wilmington, North Carolina and when I went down there to look at it the gentleman that was showing me around pointed to the empty acreage down there and said “We’re gonna build a shipyard there and we’re gonna build liberty ship because we’re gonna be getting in a war and we’ll need all the ships we can to get the personnel and the war material over to Europe.” (7:40) So that sounded interesting and I stayed down there for three years until I got a little antsy, I wanted to get involved in the war, not build ships back home. So I went up to Raleigh, North Carolina and signed up at the Navy station up there as an ensign, and they sent me to Princeton officer training school. Interviewer: “Okay, I want to back up a little bit and fill in some of that time period.” Sure. Interviewer: “Alright, so were you already in North Carolina when Pearl Harbor happened?” Yes, I was, December the 7th I was there. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “And do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” How I did? Interviewer: “Yeah, how did you learn about it?” Basically over the radio, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright now yow were already– Now because of what you were doing you were already aware of the possibility that we could get into the war cause they told you that.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now were you expecting a war with Japan or were you just thinking about Europe?” (8:49) Would you say that again? Interviewer: “Were you expecting a war with Japan or were you mostly thinking about Europe?” I guess we were thinking of the entire picture, Europe, of course we had already– We hadn’t been officially in the war with Europe but you know we were helping everybody over there, certainly helping Great Britain and then I got– Then I wanted to get involved in that. Interviewer: “So the job that you had basically gave you a deferment?” Oh yes I had a deferment, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, stay there as long as you wanted to.” �Lutz, John Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, now do you think it was still in 1943 when you signed up or would it have been ‘44 before you actually went?” I think I signed up in ‘43, at the end of ‘43 and I think I was called for active duty in ‘44, the beginning of ‘44. Interviewer: “Okay, and now take us back, so where did you do your Navy training? You sign up as an ensign but then they have to train you don’t they?” Yes, I went to officers training school in Princeton– Princeton, New Jersey, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did that training consist of?” Well we had to know all the aspects of navigation and all the other things that went along in trying to become a, you know, satisfactory officer. (10:35) Interviewer: “Alright, on a practical level I mean did they teach you– Were they teaching you anything about seamanship and navigation, that kind of thing?” Yes, absolutely. Interviewer: “Alright, and then did they also– I mean the enlisted men when they come in there’s a lot of emphasis on drill and discipline and all this kind of thing, did they do that with the officer candidates?” Well the officers all went to college and enlisted men went to naval training schools, one where we went to finally pick up our crew was in Camp Bradford outside of Norfolk down in Virginia, that’s where we put the crew together. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Right, I guess I was asking if when they were training you as officers did they do any of the spit and polish stuff that the enlisted men had to do, you know how you wore your uniform, that kind of thing.” Oh very much so. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you finish– And how long did your training at Princeton last?” I think three months, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright and then what did they do with you after you finished that?” Well they sent us down to Camp Bradford down in Virginia. (12:10) Interviewer: “And what were you doing there?” Well we got out, we put on– Well they put our crew together. So we had the crew that was going to be on an LST plus all the other officers that were going to be there, and we trained together. Not only did we have like classroom studies but we had went out on LSTs out in the Chesapeake Bay and practiced running the ship, until finally they send you on your own and we were underway for– Well down the Mississippi river. Interviewer: “Okay well that was when you got your own LST right?” Yes, we got on a train at Camp Bradford and went to Seneca, Illinois where they were building LSTs and then took it down the river Mississippi. Interviewer: “Alright, now at this point what is your actual assignment on this ship? There are several officers so what job do you have?” �Lutz, John I was the engineering officer cause I was the one– I had more engineering training than anybody and some officers you know, and we had a gunnery officer, we had a navigation officer and we had a general officer who was in charge of supplying the ship for example. Interviewer: “Right okay, and so what does the engineering officer do?” Well he personally doesn’t do anything, he tells all the guys what to do but our job was to keep all the machinery running and because and LST’s basic function was to carry troops and vehicles, tanks for example, and just go full speed ahead and ram them up on the beach, open the big doors in front and disembark them. Interviewer: “So you’re responsible for those kinds of– All the machinery and the doors and all of that stuff.” Everything, yes. (14:57) Interviewer: “As well as the engines themselves?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now what do you remember about the trip down the Mississippi?” I guess getting the first taste of being down in the engine room and watching how things operated, what had to be done to make sure they were doing in good shape, couldn’t afford any breakdowns. Interviewer: “Now what time of year were you on the Mississippi? I think you’ve got that I guess in your chronology there.” �Lutz, John It’s probably on here. Interviewer: “Yeah, so I guess you– So it looks like the end of October when you actually started sailing.” I guess October. October, 26th of October we started down yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright do you remember if the– If you had to watch out for running aground or anything since you were sailing in the fall?” Yeah we weren’t allowed, and rightfully so, to navigate it ourselves. The Mississippi is a very tricky river, got a lot of twists and turns, a lot of sand– Interviewer: “Shoals.” Shoals, so you have to take on a pilot, so a pilot stayed with us the whole time steering us down the river. Well his particular section which he was most familiar with, then we get another pilot to take the rest of the way until we go to New Orleans. (17:08) Interviewer: “Okay, now were all of your crew new men or did you have some experienced sailors with you?” Oh I would say 90% of them were new, we had some guys that came from another ship but basically putting the crew together most of them are brand new. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and now you get down to New Orleans, do you get to go ashore there or do you just go off to sea?” No we had to store the ship up because going down the Mississippi we tried to keep the ship as light as possible, I mean there were no guns on the ship, anything with any weight was removed. Any of the dry goods or anything we had was taken off, the guns were taken off, the ammunition �Lutz, John was taken off. So when we were in New Orleans all that had to be put back on again, and then when that was all done we went down– New Orleans is about, I guess, 50, 60 miles up the river, so we had to go down the river into the gulf and we practiced steaming around the gulf in convoy with some other LSTs, practicing landing on the beach, until everybody– Whoever was in charge figured “Okay, you guys can do it by yourselves now.” And they sent us off to the South Pacific. Interviewer: “Okay, now before you left for the South Pacific did they load up the LST with all what you’re gonna take with you across the ocean?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Because on a shake down cruise you probably weren’t carrying a lot of troops and extra equipment.” Yes. Interviewer: “Yeah, so you’d have to go back and get those and then leave.” (19:11) Yeah. Interviewer: “Right, okay now was there anything– Do you remember what you were carrying as you crossed the Pacific, did you have any unusual cargo?” Part of the unusual cargo was whole things telephone poles, we had a bunch of them on board. Interviewer: “And then did you carry– Okay, I guess– So initially you go from New Orleans, you go to the Panama Canal? Did you go through the Panama Canal?” Yes, oh yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and what do you remember about that?” �Lutz, John Well it was very interesting maneuvers going through the canal with the locks and everything, filling them up with water and then emptying them in order to get over the ridges in the terrain. Interviewer: “Okay, now did any of the crew get to go ashore at one end or the other?” Oh yes, everybody got ashore and had a few days down there. I remember taking the train from where we were docked on the Atlantic side, you could take a train and it could take you all the way over to the Pacific side. It was an interesting little trip, it wasn’t a big trip, I don’t know 50 miles or something but it was very interesting. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you have to worry about some of the men going into bars and having that kind of thing?” Well I think we always worry about them and you’re always pulling some of them out and you have to go down the next morning and get them out of jail. (21:05) Interviewer: “Now was that something a junior officer would do sometimes?” No, they had MPs that are permanently stationed there, you know wherever there’s a bunch of sailors around and even the officers, watching out for them that they don’t get in trouble. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you get to Panama and then from Panama what’s your next stop?” San Diego. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you load anything new at San Diego or was that just fuel and food?” �Lutz, John That was pretty much– We were pretty much loaded up by that time and then from there we went over to Hawaii. Now in Hawaii the biggest thing that happened there is we took another amphibious landing craft, an LCT, and hoisted it and it was hoisted up on the main deck and we carried that little landing craft all the way over to Okinawa actually where we had to tip the ship over on it’s side and slide it off into the water. Interviewer: “Because it’s an LCT it’s a flat bottomed craft with a ramp on the front–” Yeah. Interviewer: “But it can carry four vehicles or something or four tanks something like–” Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “So it’s bigger than the little Higgins boats the men land in, so more substantial landing craft but it’s not an ocean going craft.” (22:47) No. Interviewer: “So you were carrying it?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, well–” Well actually they did take them over the ocean individually too. Interviewer: “Okay.” Yeah. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “They’re probably not very fast.” But it took a long time and it was a pretty rough ride I imagine, I never was on one. Interviewer: “Right, okay you’ve got that kind of sitting right there in the middle of your deck, now inside the ship did you have vehicles or– Cause I think there’s something here about having LVTs on the tank deck and those are amphibious landing vehicles.” Yeah, which one was it? Interviewer: “The LVT.” LVT yeah that’s the smaller one that would take maybe just only one. Interviewer: “I think an LVT is a tracked vehicle, it’s like an amphibious tank almost but carries men.” (23:42) Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you’ve got plenty of stuff and– So you leave Pearl Harbor and we’ve got that and then you head across the Pacific from there so kind of late January you leave.” Yeah, down to the Solomon Islands. Interviewer: “Okay, now in the process you cross the equator?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, did your ship have a ceremony for crossing the equator or did they not do that?” �Lutz, John A ceremony? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Oh I’ll say. Interviewer: “Can you describe the ceremony?” Well I think if the Japanese had seen us with the shenanigans that went onboard the ship, they would have surrendered right then and said “Those guys are crazy.” But oh they sprayed you with different solutions like mustard or something like that, wash your mouth you with soapy water, all the Halloween kind of stuff you know, and I know I had to put on some long underwear– We carried long underwear by the way in case the LST was assigned to, say the Aleutian Islands or something like that and I was given the long periscope so I could– Telescope, and my job was trying the find the– What is it, the equator. (25:50) So my job was trying to find that but I never did find it, but it was all those kinds of shenanigans and the flag that was flown was a pirate’s flag, yeah. We would have scared anybody that saw us, wondering what’s going on. Interviewer: “Alright, now did the captain have to go through this too or had he been across already?” No, no, the captain and the executive officer was probably still up on the deck– In the wheelhouse making sure we weren’t running into any other ships because we weren’t by ourselves we were– I forget how many were with us but maybe a half a dozen LSCs. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re sailing in a convoy?” Yes, and we got down to the Solomon Islands by then. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, and what happened once you got there?” Once we got there we again did an awful lot of practicing with other LSC in getting ready for the inevitable landings that were going to take place on the islands MacArthur’s goal was to proceed to Japan with an island jumping process rather than take every island as he went up he was going around the islands. So what we were doing, we were practicing and practicing and practicing again until we finally loaded up with some Marines, I guess they were Marines at the time rather than Army, and went up to another place in preparation for the– Interviewer: “Yeah, Ulithi Atoll is what you’ve got listed here, Ulithi is in the Caroline Islands.” Ultihi. Interviewer: “Yeah.” (27:56) Yeah, Ulithi. Interviewer: “Alright, that’s kind of an assembly point and now–” Yes, very big atoll and a lot, a lot of ships could be anchored in there quite safely and that’s how we were ready to go to Okinawa. Interviewer: “Okay, now tell us about the trip to Okinawa. How large was the fleet around you or what did you see?” Oh it was a tremendously large fleet, I never saw any gathering of ships that was quite that large and were getting ready for April the 1st and then we were– I think they called it Yellow Beach One or something like that. Interviewer: “So they’re listing Yellow Beach Two on the chronology here.” �Lutz, John There’s a two, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and so what does your ship do, what does your LST do initially?” What we did, in that particular case, we had big pontoons on the side of each side of the ship which– Well first thing we do is, I guess get rid of that LCT, and then we dropped the pontoons ff and the pontoons were tied stern to– You know, head on and then there’s bulldozers in the front and they get as close to the beach with the pontoon as you could and then bulldozers would make a ramp like up to these pontoons and if you had tanks the tanks would roll of, if you had armored vehicles they would roll off. Interviewer: “Alright, and you had your LVTs and your Marines to unload.” Yes. (30:16) Interviewer: “Okay, now on that first day did you get fired upon or see enemy aircraft or was it quiet?” No, it was quite quiet the first day and then later on the kamikazes then started coming over. Interviewer: “Well after you unloaded the Marines and the LVTs and so forth, did you just stay at Okinawa or did you go back and get more supplies and come back?” No, we stayed there for a while so that we could– So if the need arose that we could take the Marines off one section of the beach and go around the other end of the island, which we did to another section and dump them off there so that we could go around the Japanese. So we kept doing that for a month I guess it was and then we left there. We damaged our propeller at one place when we were trying to get in on a beach and we ran the ship into a reef and bent several blades I guess on the propeller and we couldn’t maintain full speed. We had to cut back on the speed quite a bit to prevent some further damage to the internal combustion engines, which was �Lutz, John the same engine used in locomotives by the way, about 1,000 horsepower, so we had to go back, I forget where we went after that. Interviewer: “It says the Philippines.” To the Philippines? Interviewer: “To Leyte, yeah.” And had to get into a dry dock and the, I guess the propellers were either exchanged or repaired, in some way they were fixed. Interviewer: “Alright, now before that you had been under attack by kamikazes.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, can you describe what that was like or what happened to your ship?” (32:34) Well that was the most dangerous thing was the kamikazes and of course in the day time they fired on them all the time and actually those LSTs can put up quite a wall of fire. If you can get a whole bunch of them out there shooting at those airplanes you can knock quite a few of them out of the sky and at nighttime when they came over we had what they call fog machines and you put up a blanket of fog where you just, you hid in the fog. They couldn’t see you, you couldn’t see them so you just sat there covered with a whole bunch of fog. Interviewer: “Okay, so what did the Kamikazes do at that point, do they just drive into the fog and hope to hit something?” Well they were just dropping bombs down at that time I would imagine, I don’t imagine– �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Well a kamikaze was designed to go one direction and not actually land anywhere. Now they had regular bombers as well, so they had regular aircraft, maybe that’s what they used at night. So if you don’t remember much of kamikazes plunging into the water at night–” No. Interviewer: “Then probably that was bombers they were using.” No, no. Interviewer: “Yeah, but the kamikazes were going to fly directly into your ship?” Yes. Interviewer: “Now how close did your ship get to being hit by a kamikaze?” (34:00) Quite close, it was a Sid Lenger that his gun crew, he and Goldie as a matter of fact, were on the gun crew that shot down a kamikaze that almost got us and I think as he was– As it was coming towards us the pilot apparently was hit by something and pulled back just to check back on the reaction from the gun and went up and over the ship actually or we wouldn’t be sitting here talking because he would have come right into the side of the ship right where the engine room was and right where John O. Lutz was. Interviewer: “Okay, so as the engineering officer your job general quarter station would be within the engine room?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did you ever observe kamikaze attacks from on deck or were you always down below?” �Lutz, John No, once in a while when it seemed to be a little bit slowing down in the activity we would, a couple at a time would go up and take a look around and then when it got a little more active they scoot down the engine room again. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you kind of– So you’re off of Okinawa during April, you go back to the Philippines to get repaired, now it looks like in your chronology here that you’re there from 29th of April to the 23rd of June. So how did you spend your time in the Philippines then, did you have duties on board ship or did you go ashore?” A little of both I guess, I remember going ashore and the men went ashore. They had a little time in Manila and a couple other– Couple of other islands there, Cebu was one, Mindanao was another one, there was a few islands that we visited. Interviewer: “Yeah, did you see much of the Filipino population or–” (36:40) Yeah, they were going out about their business and– Just trying to think of where, I think things were– I think the people tried to get as long as much, as best they could. In the villages and the towns around there little shanties, little shacks were open for selling goods and fruits and vegetables and things like that. Interviewer: “And did they seem to like the Americans?” Well I think they looked at us like their savior, you know after all it was either us or somebody. Interviewer: “Yeah, or the Japanese.” Right, and they didn’t have much love for the Japanese. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get to Manila yourself?” �Lutz, John Did I what? Interviewer: “Did you go to Manila?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you see there?” Oh a lot of the buildings were just in shambles really they were, as a result of our gunfire and the Japanese gunfire. Japanese had– Was in charge there and then when they evacuated it they blew up a lot of the buildings. Interviewer: “Alright, so you have some time in the Philippines and then you load back up again and so how do you spend the last month or so of the war? So kind of July of ‘45 into August, were you moving supplies?” (38:37) Well we were getting– We were really getting ready to go into Japan you know, the– I guess it was on the schedule we had the next one until they dropped the atomic bomb. Interviewer: “And do you remember hearing news of the bomb being dropped?” Yeah it came in over the radio of course. Interviewer: “Okay, and at the moment it happened did you understand what that meant or was it really only when the Japanese surrender that you figure it out?” I guess we didn’t realize how devastating something like that could be, the biggest thing in our minds was the war was over, we were gonna go home, that was number one. Interviewer: “So before that were you moving supplies around to get ready for the invasion?” �Lutz, John Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now after the Japanese surrender now what does your LST do?” Well then our task became to get the Japanese soldiers back home, the quicker they went back home, the less of a problem Japan would be. They could go to work, they could go back to farming if they were farming, they can go back and try to rebuild some of the factories and they wouldn’t be quite the burden then if we just left them alone. So I think it was a wise mood to get as many as you could, get them back home, and that little booklet that I made there is one whole trip from Palau, which was some islands down there in the South Pacific, taken home this whole group of Japanese soldiers and depositing them outside Tokyo actually. Interviewer: “Alright now in your chronology here that comes in December of ‘45 but you’ve been to Japan already before that cause you went to Yokohama earlier, cause your chronology says that you went to Manila at the end August, picked up the 118th engineer combat battalion and took them to Yokohama.” (41:12) Uh-huh, okay. Interviewer: “Do you remember doing that?” No, I don’t. Yeah and then we went up to another island called Hokkaido, we did that and took a group up there and then from Hokkaido we got a little shore leave. The war was over by that time and I took the train over to Sapporo, Sapporo by the way was headquarters for the winter olympics at one time. Interviewer: “Right, back in 1972 or some six or something like that.” Yeah, you’re pretty much up on your stuff there. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Well I’m old enough to remember that.” Yeah. Interviewer: “So I watched that one on television but yeah okay, so you– Now when you go ashore in Japan how did the Japanese people behave towards you?” I thought they did very good, we had some jeeps that we had confiscated along the way, we had three jeeps on board the ship. We grabbed one to go for a little ride and I remember we were going along, something happened to our jeep, they come running out of the house and fix it or whatever it was, change a tire and– No they were very– When the Japanese emperor said “Stop fighting” they stopped fighting right then and there and we could drive all over with no problems at all. Went downtown Japan, downtown Tokyo, and went through several of the big stores that was still operating. Most of Tokyo was destroyed by the fires, we used to drop incendiary bombs on them, by far we killed more people that way than with– (43:35) Interviewer: “The atomic bomb.” Explosives, yeah. Interviewer: “Did it surprise you at all that the Japanese were as friendly as they were?” I guess it did, it really did because I really– They could have killed any one of us and nobody really would’ve known it, only that we didn’t show up on the ship that night and I remember we– On one little jeep expedition that we were driving around we put a couple cans of sardines in a knapsack and so that if we got hungry along the way we could stop and eat, which we did, I think there’s about two or three of us in a jeep and we sat down on a curb and opened up the sardines we were eating, and the Japanese ladies in the house that was there came out with tea, served us tea, didn’t know whether to take it or not but they were very, very courteous. You’ll find out �Lutz, John reading that little write up that I have there what a perfect gentleman the– I think he was a colonel or a lieutenant colonel– Interviewer: “The Japanese– The commander of the Japanese unit you were moving out.” Right, what a perfect gentleman he was and kept his troops on board ship under control and wrote a nice little letter there, which I got a copy of the original, thanking us for bringing them home even though I think he said three of them died on the way, couldn’t put them all on the tank deck, that was full, so a lot of them just had to stay up on the main deck and the food they had was rice and you’ll see pictures there of our cooks with the help of their cooks scooping out rice into the little containers. Interviewer: “Alright, let’s talk a little bit more fully here about that last trip. So you go down to Palau which is gonna pass the Philippines I guess, or south of there a little bit, and Palau that larger set of islands, one of the islands in that area was Peleliu.” (46:17) Yes it was. Interviewer: “Where the Marines fought a very tough battle but the main island of Palau itself I guess is where you went to and there was a Japanese unit there that had been the garrison that was still there at the end of the war.” Right. Interviewer: “So your job was to take that home?” Right. Interviewer: “Okay, so just sort of take us through the sequence of events, the LST comes into the harbor at Palau.” �Lutz, John Right. Interviewer: “And then what happens?” Well I guess nothing much, they all came down to the docks there and their officers, you know directed them on board the ship, and you’ll see one of our guys there telling them, directing them to go here, go there, and so forth and no problem at all and that’s the interesting thing, when they said “Stop fighting.” They stopped fighting. Interviewer: “What physical condition were they in, did they look healthy and well fed, were they kind of thin?” I guess I didn’t look too closely, at that time I was looking at other things but I would think that one of the problems on those islands where they couldn’t get supplies from their own fleet would be lack of food, although I don’t know why they didn’t fish. (47:38) Interviewer: “Well they might have.” They might have in addition to that but no they were just packing up their gear, folding blankets, you can see them folding blankets and just going on board ship and one little space would be they’d sit down there and I’d be there till they got home. Interviewer: “Alright, now did any of them speak English?” Not that I recall. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have anybody on board who spoke Japanese?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, so you just had to kind of communicate as best you could?” �Lutz, John Now I say anybody, the colonel did, the one in charge did, he did there was two of them that were in charge actually and you can see his picture in there, he’s a very distinguished looking guy and he spoke English, he may have even gone to school in the United States as a lot of them did you know. Interviewer: “Yeah, alright and then when you were taking them back up to Japan did you have bad weather or–” Yes, we did, we had– And I got some pictures of the bad weather we got there and everybody got sick as usual, they more frequently than sailors who are more used to that than the land based troops you know. Interviewer: “Right, so when you first went to sea did you get seasick?” I never got really seasick, no not really bad, I’d feel a little queasy but some guys got really seasick and of course all they wanted to do was lie down. (49:34) Well if they lie down somebody else has to take their watch so we wouldn’t allow that, no lying down the only thing you could do is– And they did that quite often, is they take a gallon– A lot of the food came in gallons, tomatoes would come in a gallon canister and we’d tie a gallon can with a string around their neck so they’d have some place– We didn’t want it in the bilges you know or on the deck, but after a few days of getting used to rolling around– There were a couple lessons, they were either fooling or not, had to be transferred off on occasion, not that particular place but any other place because they were just allergic to it they couldn’t stand it and of course we had a pharmacist made on board ship and he’s the guy who used to dole out the shots and check everybody to make sure they were alright, do what he could for them, he was even also trained to do minor operations. The ward room which is the dining room for the officers had a big table on it where we ate, course that became the operating table, we never had to use it thank goodness but if someone had appendicitis he was at least trained to do something about [unintelligible]. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Now did the ship ever have any combat casualties, did anybody ever get hit with shrapnel or bullets or things like that?” No, they never did. Interviewer: “Okay, so after you dropped off the Japanese prisoners, you get back to Tokyo Bay, unload them, now what happens to you and the LST?” To me? Interviewer: “Yeah.” We were just sitting in the harbor up there, I think we made one trip up to Otaru which was a port near Hokkaido where you could get a train actually and go up to Sapporo and that’s about it. Made one trip up there as I recall and just hung around the harbor a little bit, for a few days until we got word that the Japanese merchant marine was gonna take it over. (52:22) Interviewer: “Okay, so we’re helping rebuild Japan by giving them the LST.” Yeah, they got the LST and our guys spent half the time switching gauges around trying to fool them so they wouldn’t know what gauge to watch in the engine room, sort of nasty but– Interviewer: “Yeah, okay so now from there do you get sent back home?” Yes and I came right home. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did you get home because your ship is still in Japan?” Well yeah, let’s see now… I was– I asked my captain to give me a pass to discharge me right there in Tokyo and I used that to go over to the airport and I bummed a ride home on a transport that was going taking some Washington officials back to Washington actually and I got a ride all �Lutz, John the way to Midway, I guess it was Midway and then the next hop I got was the Philippines and then from the Philippines I got another hop over to outside San Francisco, someplace over there, I forget what the name of the airport was. Interviewer: “Do you think you– So you went from Midway to the Philippines because that’d be the wrong direction?” No, I went to– Interviewer: “Or did you go Philippines to Midway and then home?” Yeah, Philippines– No I didn’t go to the Philippines, no I went to Midway right over, I think it was from Tokyo to midway. Interviewer: “That would make sense, yeah.” (54:37) Midway to Hawaii, Hawaii over to San Francisco, some place over there and then from there to Kansas, Olathe– Interviewer: “Olathe, Kansas.” Olathe, Kansas and from Kansas was the last hop I got and that landed in Washington, D.C, yeah. In Washington, D.C, yeah where I took the train, where I took the train up to Philadelphia because that’s where I was living at the time I went into the service. Interviewer: “Okay, cause I guess I thought you had been working in North Carolina or had they–” No, I had been working at Baldwin locomotive works where we were making engines, actually the same engine was made in these locomotive companies as appeared in a lot of these ships. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Alright, okay so now that you’re out of the Navy, 1946.” I’m out of the Navy. Interviewer: “Now what do you do?” I went to work at the Baldwin locomotive works, yeah I went back to them. Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you stay with them?” Not too long because I had a job offer to go some place else to a company that offered me a chief engineer job and we made piston rings which was in Philadelphia. Yeah, which was finally acquired by Ex-Cell-O corporation, and Ex-Cell-O corporation was finally acquired by Textron which is still– I guess they’re still active in the area here, the Detroit area, supplying parts to the automobile company and that’s it, I retired from there. (57:30) Interviewer: “Okay, now along the way though you stayed in the naval reserves when you came out.” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what happens when the– After the Korean War starts?” After what? Interviewer: “When the Korean War starts.” Oh yeah, well I was in the reserves of course and the reason you stayed in the reserves– I did it for the money actually, I was young and had just got married and every dollar that you could make was welcome. So basically I stayed in the reserve and but then when the war came, you know they grabbed me and put me on the Adria. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of ship was the Adria?” The Adria was a refrigerated cargo ship and that was one big ice box, you know and the job was to go around the Atlantic. The furthest away we went was I guess down in– We went to Africa and we went down to Trinidad was a base, Bermuda, Argentia which was up in Newfoundland, picking up supplies in the Norfolk area, there’s a big naval supply depot in Norfolk. We pick up the frozen goods and everything and take it up to whoever the next stop was. Interviewer: “Yeah, did you go to Europe or just Africa and the Caribbean?” No, we went to– Africa was like Casablanca. Interviewer: “Okay so Morrocco.” Yeah. (59:35) Interviewer: “Okay, but you didn’t go to England or France or Italy?” No, no, no. Interviewer: “Alright, and what was your job on board that ship?” Same thing, engineering officer. Interviewer: “Okay, now were the other officers World War II veterans or were they younger?” Some were and some weren’t. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long was your obligation to stay on that ship?” �Lutz, John Two years. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what does your family do during those two years?” What? Interviewer: “What did your family do during those two years, did your wife just stay at home and–” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have much contact while you were away?” Oh yeah, well see the Adria’s headquarters was Norfolk, Newport News is in that area, that’s where the big naval supply depot was but we would– We were tied up at the Norfolk Naval Base quite a few times. (1:00:54) Yeah, quite a bit and I was in charge of– I guess I was the senior watch officer, I used to assign watches, when officers stood and I always worked it out that I had the weekends of because while their families were in Norfolk because a lot of them were Navy men, my family was in Philadelphia and I used to leave Friday afternoon and don’t get back until Sunday night, or Monday morning early. So I got home quite a bit then, put in my time until the two years was up. Interviewer: “Okay, now you stayed in the reserves after that?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay now– So how long did you stay in?” 22 years. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, because like I said it had you retiring out in 1964.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LutzJ2326V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lutz, John Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08 Title A name given to the resource Lutz, John (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource John Lutz was born on May 24, 1919 in Brooklyn, New York, and attended high school in Queens. He graduated high school in 1936 and went on to attend the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to become an engineer. In 1940, he earned his bachelor’s degree in automotive engineering and eventually went to work for the Newport News Shipbuilding Company in North Carolina. After three years Lutz wanted a more active role in the ongoing Second World War, so he traveled to Raleigh, North Carolina, where he enlisted into the Navy in late 1943. For Basic Training, he was transferred to Officers Training School in Princeton, New Jersey, for three months. He was then sent to Camp Bradford, Virginia, where he practiced operating in an LST (tank landing ship) crew as an Engineering Officer. From there, he and his crew shipped out to the South Pacific. When traveling through Hawaii, Lutz’s ship also took on the cargo of a smaller LCT (tank landing craft) which they transported to Okinawa. For the invasion of Okinawa, Lutz’s LST was outfitted with pontoons, which helped during the unloading of the LCT. Once all the men and gear the ship was carrying had made it ashore, kamikaze pilots became more of a threat as Lutz’s LST began transferring Marines between different beaches and landing points along the island’s coast. Despite a close encounter, his LST was never struck by a kamikaze pilot. While transferring troops to another beach, his ship struck a coral reef, damaging one of its propeller’s blades, and were forced to travel south to Leyte Gulf in the Philippines for repairs. After the Japanese surrender, his LST transferred troops and supplies into mainland Japan to help with the rebuilding process. His ship was also assigned to help transport a Japanese unit, originally stationed in Palau. Lutz was then discharged at Tokyo Bay and took a series of flights back to the United States. In 1946, he went to work for Baldwin Automotive Company and joined the Navy Reserves. After the outbreak of the Korean War, he was called up again and was assigned to the USS Adria. Lutz remained in the Navy reserves for 22 years before retiring in 1964. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d51fff9d26891ff91bb215d3ae533b73.mp4 b3d023ad7ff143bfdb9e08e0a0f0eaec https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/825bae5642acd6952dc9e4882d16b2c9.pdf bd53195b8b7fe23ec394618a6495ddcf PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Melchior Lux Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Sarah Schneider (0:30) We’re talking today with Melchior Lux of Warren Michigan. He goes by “Mike” so that’ll be what we’ll be calling him. The interviewer today is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s Project. Ok, uh Mike give us a little bit of background, um where and when were you born? (0:47) I was born in 1935 in Filipowa, that used to be part of Backi Gracac, it’s Serbia now. (1:00) Ok, Serbia. So what country was it part of when you were born? (1:04) It was…When I was born, it was probably Hungarian. The Hungarians, they move back and forth. (1:15) Ok, but in Serbia were you in Yugoslavia? (1:17) Yugoslavia, yeah, yeah. (1:19) Ok, what year were you born? (1:20) 1935. (1:22) Ok, uh so you were born there and tell me a little about your family background. (1:27) My family. Well my father had his own business. He…he was in the hemp business, my mother and so was also my brother. My brother worked for my father. (1:42) Ok, how old was your brother when you were born. (1:45) 10. �(1:47) Ok, so the Hemp business. So you made rope? (1:50) Hemp. They made from the raw material, they made it. They worked it so they can make, so they could spin ropes. So that’s uh … they had not machines, everything was done by hand. (2:10) Ok, and what language were you speaking as a kid? (2:11) German. (2:13) Ok, so describe the town that you grew up in a little bit. What was that like? (2:18) The town was just a, it was mostly farmers and people that worked for the farmers. There was no other industry. (2:30) Ok, and what ethnic group were they from? (2:33) They were German, all German. 100%, the whole town was 100% German. It was one of the, I don’t know if there were any other towns that were 100% German. Most the towns were, the majority were Germans. They had Hungarians and Serbs. Usually the Serbs used to work for the farmers. And that’s where a lot of heat came in after…in the Second World War. (3:09) Ok, now back up a little bit. Do you know how long the German population had been in that area? (3:16) I’d say about 200 years. (3:19) Ok, because there’s a period in time in the 18th century when the Austrians were pushing the Ottoman-Turkish Empire back. And then how did the German population get there, or why did they go? (3:30) Pardon me? �(3:31) Why did the Germans move there? (3:33) They got promised like parcels of rent if they go there, if they worked rent or cultivated. And that’s how that all started. (3:47) So the area that you’re in is, ethnically, you have all these different groups and all these different places? (3:53) You have different towns have different ethnic background. Like, we had a town that’s like two kilometers – I don’t know if it’s Southwest, East or North – they were mostly… those were people who came out of Czechoslovakia. They spoke a different language; they spoke more like Serbian. And then you had another town, they had people from Ukraine, from Russia. But, the majority in the area was mostly Germans or Serbs. (4:32) Ok, alright, so you’re born in 1935 um then in 1941 the Germans invade. (4:40) They came in, yeah. They didn’t invade, they just marched in. (4:44) Yeah, legally it’s still an invasion. (4:47) Yeah. Most of like our people walk with the Germans naturally because we were German. (4:55) Ok, now while you were, I mean I’m not sure how much you were aware of it I guess, while the government was Yugoslavia, the Yugoslavian government was dominated by the Serbs. How did the Yugoslavian government treat the Germans in the country? (5:10) I couldn’t really tell. I was too little. But, like I told you before, we were actually like the city hall was run by Hungary because Hungary and Germany they were allies at that time [after the Germans took over Yugoslavia], so our city hall was actually run by the Hungarian �government. Like the police, they were Hungarians. Everybody was scared of them. I remember that as a kid, and through later when I grew up and my folks talked about it. (5:49) Ok, now could the Hungarians speak German. (5:53) I… everyone thought the official language in the city hall was like Hungarian at that time. But, like the schools, was, we had German, but we had, it was mandatory that you take – I don’t know if it was one hour or two hours – we had to speak Hungarian, we learned Hungarian words. (6:18) Ok, so during that period, sort of during 1941, 42, 43, 44 while you were still living in that town what was your daily life like? (6:30) What the daily life? Kids were on their own because it was a poor area. All the grown-ups had to work. We went to school, after school we played, when it was time for dinner you went home because you know dinner was like at 5 or 6 o’clock, you had to be home. (6:59) Ok, now did you have enough food? (7:01) We had more food than we could uh, I told you there was like the breadbasket of Yugoslavia. That area where I come from. (7:14) Ok, because in sometimes the Germans might come and take a lot of the food away or the Hungarians might. (7:20) Not, not, not that time. That was all after the war was over. Then, well we had food, they put us in the concentration camps and that’s when everything stopped. (7:37) Ok, alright, now during the time then where you’re still living at home when the Germans came through, do you remember seeing any kind of Nazi things like Swastika flags? �(7:50) Oh, yeah everybody had Swastika flags on their house. That’s, I told you, there was, but there was mostly the rich people were against Hitler and the people, like my folks, the average guy was for Hitler. Because, you know, it was better when he was in power that time. (8:18) In what way was it better? (8:20) Well, I guess economically. We had no idea, that is the propaganda machine, we all liked Hitler as a kid. We all tried to join the Hitler Youth. You couldn’t join that until you were 10, but we couldn’t wait until we were 10. We just never made it, I never made it ‘til I was 10. (8:47) Ok, and why was the Hitler Youth attractive? (8:52) Well, I guess… (8:53) Like, the uniforms or (8:56) Naturally the uniforms. We all got wooden guns. You know, like a carbine, like a rifle. When the Americans used to fly down to Romania to bomb the oil fields, the whole sky was like silver. Us kids used to go in the ditch and shoot, pretend to shoot the planes down. (9:26) You saw yourselves as Germans? (9:29) Yeah. (9:30) And so, now you’re part of Germany, you’re allied with Germany so at that point as a kid that was sort of natural. (9:38) Right, exactly. That was the only language I ever spoke was German. (9:45) Ok, now in your area was there any kind of Partisan activity? �(9:52) Very little, but there was yeah. In fact we had like places we could only go so far because, you know, when you go out of town we know points that was the end because I told you like two kilometers away them people were for Tito, you know, and there were a lot of parties and activities they used to captures kids and sometimes burn like a swastika in their face or in their back. That happened. I didn’t see it, but, you know, we were told. (10:35) Alright, now if you think back in that period before your family had to move out are there other particular memories that stay with you? (10:50) Not really, because, like I said, we grew up, all the kids, you grew up independent. You know, you had basically, you know right from wrong, we were taught right from wrong. You didn’t do anything bad because, you know, that just didn’t happen. (11:14) Ok, did you have brothers and sisters who were close to your own age? (11:17) No. My brother is 10 years older. He was in the German army. My sister was 9 years older. She had to go to work. (11:29) So, you really were by yourself? (11:31) I was by… my father had his shop in the back, there was a building. So, if I did need somebody, I would go to him, which I didn’t need to really. We just grew up and you got up in the morning, you washed your face, put your own food on the table, ate, got dressed, and went to school. (11:57) Ok, alright. Now I guess at the end of 1944 things changed a little. (12:03) Changed, once the Germans were out in October 1944, the Partisans came into town. And then the rations started, like you got one box of matches for a month and the food was never �rationed because everyone had plenty food. And they took all the radios away, the bicycles, the jewelry. In the beginning it wasn’t so much, but after a month, like in the beginning of October they came in, by the end of October they used to go in houses and just take what they want. (12:58) Ok, now the Partisans were they Croatian? Were they Serbs? (13:04) The Partisans mostly were people like Serbs that used to work for the farmers and now they were not the helper, now they were they were the boss. So, that’s how it basically worked, but, and then they also, well, half the town retreated with the Germans that fled back to Germany. We were on the wagon already, but my sister didn’t want to go, she made a lot of fuss, so my mother pulled out. My father was in the German army, so was my brother. (13:48) Ok, at what point did your father have to join the German army? (13:52) The beginning of ’44. Everybody had to join if you wanted to go out and hunt. They, actually, they got a rifle and they got five…first they wore like guarding to town, because we had like five factories that worked hemp and they started burning. And you know, the Partisans used to come there and tried to light them up. So, they, first they wore like, uh, just like guards. (14:28) Yeah, like police or security guards? (14:30) Yeah and then in the middle of ’44, he had to join the German army just before they retreated. (14:40) Ok, so he retreated along with them, then? (14:43) Well he was in the army. He got us, actually, he got us a wagon so we could go. His commander gave him some, he probably lied to him, he gave him a wagon and told him, “Make sure that your kids and your wife flee.” And we were, it was just like the 49ers go out west. �That’s how they said like maybe 20 – 30 wagons and they all stayed together. They had one leader, I guess. (15:21) But in the end you didn’t go … (15:23) We didn’t go, so that’s … then it got bad and they used to uh, my mother and my sister, they used uh to go to work – everybody that was able to work – the Partisans would come and they had to do, I don’t know exactly, they just took them out of town. Like my mother was in … there was a German airfield where they had to go flatten it out because it got, they used a plough and they had to level the ground off again. And my sister, I don’t know where she had to work, they used to come home at night and right after Christmas they got a certain age group and they told them that they had to come and form at the city hall and then they told them to go home and bring fifteen days’ worth of food and clothes and then they took them and I don’t know where they went. They ended up in Russia, of course we didn’t know it at that time. My sister was like five years in Russia. (16:45) In Russia? (16:47) As a prisoner, yeah. There was like, Tito promised Russia for his work heads [camps?] he had to send workers. So that was the where there was a certain age group. Like my cousin she had two little babies, she had to leave them behind. (17:13) Did they target ethnic Germans? (17:16) That’s all there was, was Germans, yeah ethnic Germans. Matter of fact, if you had … There were some Germans who had a slavish [Slavic] name and they had it a little better, but that was only a few families. But, basically all the Germans in a certain age group, a certain percentage, they just took out and shipped them to Russia. �(17:50) Now, did you stay with your mother? (17:53) I stayed with my mother then, and then a few weeks later my mother had to go. They picked her up of course we didn’t know where she was, she just never came back home. She ended up in a hard labor camp and so I was sleeping by myself in the house and I saw the neighbors and I had my aunt she lived right next door to me. But, mostly I was by school friends their parents, ate there and then by night I had to go home and sleep by myself. That’s the scary part, that what I remember. (18:40) Now how long did that go on? (18:42) That went on for like two months. Then, on Good Friday ’45, I was in March. They came and started in one end of the town and went house to house, like three Partisans or two Partisans, and they came in if there was somebody in the house they could take whatever they want of course you couldn’t take that and you have five minutes to leave. They started on the North end and I lived on the South end. And, because there was a great big meadow, I could view houses from my house and we all, the whole town, got put in the meadow with whatever you took along. They kept us there all afternoon and then at night they put us two streets before the railroad station. They put I don’t know how many people in each house, whatever it took and then the following Saturday we were put in cattle wagons and we got shipped out to, it was a town we called it a concentration camp, it was a town. You had like a regular bedroom, you had like maybe ten people that are sleeping on the floor. They put straw in there and that’s how it was and then you had one … there was one house there was like a kitchen and that’s where you picked up your food and you got a coffee cup full of ground cole [cabbage] and water soup without salt, without grease. And I went there with my aunt and my aunt had two little babies so I basically as a ten year old, I actually was nine and a half, and I had to help her. �(21:28) I think before you had mentioned that you had an aunt with two babies that you said had to go away? (21:34) Pardon me? (21:35) Didn’t she … Did you have an aunt who was taken away along with your sister? Or was that a different person? (21:40) No, that was the two babies’ mother that got taken away. She was also in Russia, but she died. (21:49) Ok, so the babies are left with what is really their grandmother? (21:51) With their grandmother, yes. (21:53) That was your aunt? (21:55) That was my aunt, yeah. And when they took us in the concentration camp I just, well they took everybody you had no choice. (22:07) Was this camp still in Yugoslavia? (22:08) Yes. (22:12) Were there Partisans guarding you? (22:14) Yes, there were Partisans guarding the whole town. Each street they had soldiers; you know big guns. That was day and night. There was no wire, but we used to sneak out at night and go begging but that’s because the food was so bad. (22:38) So, when you went begging where would you go? �(22:40) We went to a city that was basically inhabited by Serbs and Hungarians and we’d sneak out at like twelve o’clock at night because we know when the guards change and so on. We’d walk, we’d go out of town and there were piles of straw from farmers and we’d crawl in their until it got daylight and then we’d walk like 15 km, or like 10 miles something like that it’s a little less than 10 miles. (23:22) Ok, and then when you would beg would you try to go to Hungarian families? (23:25) No, we’d go from house to house. The Hungarians were not too fond of the Germans but the Serbs, the Serbian people, were good. I mean not everyone gave you something, but most people gave you a little bit. (23:48) Now, did you have the sense that most of the Serbs didn’t like the Partisans either? (23:53) No, I wouldn’t know. I would not know because most of the Partisans came from … it just was there were guys that used to be workers for the farms, there were stories going around, they were really bad. (24:14) So, it’s just a very difficult time and a very confusing time. (24:20) But it was, we didn’t know. You know, as a kid you don’t know. Besides being hungry, we all were hungry that’s why you went begging. Especially for my aunt who helped the little kids. I mean, I called them little one was a year and a half the other was like three. So, every little bit helped but I just stuck along. (24:57) Now the Partisans, so they weren’t like taking roll every day? They weren’t counting all the people every day? (25:03) No, no, no. �(25:05) They just didn’t want you to leave? (25:06) Matter of fact when we used to go back a lot of times they intercepted us so once they had officers they had fifteen, twenty, intercepted. We used to go begging in groups of three or four. You know, you get out all alone you know and then you meet each other at a certain point, but when they used to intercept us, and then they made us sing Hitler songs. They all, most of them could speak some German probably and then they beat us up. That was their sport. (25:46) Ok, but they weren’t lining you up and shooting you or things like that? (25:49) No, no, no. (25:50) They just brought you back. (25:52) They did only occasionally there was like probably what we thought what old people maybe like twenty, twenty-five years old. When they caught them, they used to beat them up so bad. I remember we got … once they put us in a cellar in a farmhouse there were thirty-nine people in there and they put a hot kettle of oil in there. That was their thing. And they’d get fumes and they’d lock up the basement - we call it cellar basement is what you got here - then in the morning they let you out because once you get fresh air again, you almost fall over. Then the older people, they had look in the sun for us kids, we were supposed to look in the sun too but they didn’t beat us up, but they beat them. I’ve seen them when they beat people so bad. If you look in the sun and you close your eyes, you can’t close your eyes they were watching. That didn’t happen daily, that just happened at one experience I had. And a lot of times they intercepted us just before you get into town, they took you to the main building. They had a big cellar they’d lock us in sometimes for two, three days. You know, and then they’d come up once they figured we were in for long enough they’d let us out and we’d go out the front door and �back the back door because we knew where all the knapsacks were from when they took food away from other people and you’d steal it and run and run to church. There was the church across the street. You’d hide in there for a while and then when you’d think it was time … it was like a game. (28:12) Now, most of the time did you not get caught? (28:17) Most of the time, I didn’t get caught. (28:21) Now how long did you have to stay in that camp? (28:24) I was like, I was there from like March to the 22nd of December ’46. In the meantime, after about a year my mother escaped a hard labor camp and she came to our camp, but she was with me and she wasn’t with me. Somehow there was another camp within the camp where they had people who were able to work. I can see that out of her statement that, like I said, she worked in that camp, she had to go to work. (29:13) But would you ever get to see her or spend any time with her? (29:16) I’d see her like sometimes in the morning really quick and sometimes at night and then I don’t know where she went. (29:28) So, mostly you’re still living with your aunt at this point? (29:30) Yeah, I always lived with my aunt until my mother somehow there was maybe sixty to one hundred people, they had to pay to a guy to take you across the border. We went from, we escaped there and went to Hungary. And when we crossed the border there was a daily thing where they, the Partisans, opened up with the machine guns and would just shoot. There was �always a lot of dead people. We’d seen them, everyday they came with the wagons and you’d see the legs hanging. I used to live on the main street by the cemetery, close to the cemetery. (30:24) So, was your town close to the Hungarian border? (30:28) The camp was, yeah. Actually, what was our town was supposed to be the concentration camp. Originally, they brought people from other towns into our town. And then I don’t know who made the decision to put the concentration camp closer to the Hungarian border. That was our luck, because if they would’ve had it in our town and if we would’ve gotten the food that they had there, we all would have died. They had daily eighty, sixty people die from malnutrition. (31:15) So, your mother did she have to bribe, is she paying someone to smuggle? (31:21) She was paying, yeah. I don’t know where she got the money. They usually had jewelry, or whatever they had left. Whatever or however she got it, I don’t know. (31:34) Now, do you remember yourself getting out of the country? (31:39) Yeah. (31:39) What happened, what did you do it during the day or at night? (31:41) At night. Yeah, I know when we crossed the border. When they started shooting. We all got scared and I found my mother again and of course she would scream, and you’re scared. And then we went in Hungary, well we didn’t know where to go we just kept walking. And we found, they had isolated houses like between towns. Most of those were from farms. And there was light, and we went in there and through sheer luck there was a man that was actually from our town. He was the help. There was a cow and a calf. And he got us organized to go live with some �Hungarian people for a week or so, my mother helped out because the farmer’s wife was sick. And we got a little money and then eventually we started heading towards Germany. So, we hopped a train, got to the train. We had a little money and you run out you had to get off and kept walking, so you walked on to the next station. You basically walked close to the railroad tracks because you knew that they went north. (33:27) Now did you, Hungary at that point doesn’t have a border with Germany. Did you go into Austria? (33:33) Hungary had a border. Hungary had a border with Yugoslavia. Hungary had a border with Austria. Yeah, we walked basically all of Hungary. I mean, we hopped trains, we walked. Matter of fact when we crossed the border from Austria there was somehow, we got together with another group and we were almost on the border and the Hungarian police started shooting. No … I think it was the Hungarians, they started shouting for us to stop. They thought we were Russian soldiers. Hungary was occupied by the Russians too and the Russian soldiers used to go try to find women. I just know this from my mother, I couldn’t say that. And the Hungarians thought that we were Russian. So, when they started shooting, they had to take us back, so they took us back into town and they fed us really good and they treated us, the port police. And at four o’clock in the morning they ordered us to get ready and took us to the Austrian border. And so, it was the same thing. We walked basically through Austria, hopped trains, and you know you get kicked off and we ended up in Vienna. And there was like a little camp where people that was sort of like organized for people that were fleeing through. They’d get like a day or two break. And we were there and from there we went to go North, we went to Linz, that’s in Austria also and we were there like two weeks I think, and my mother got, that’s when my mother got interviewed. She gave like a statement of what happened to her. �(36:06) Ok, and so the document that you showed me before the interview, that was her testimony? [a translated version of this document is attached to this file] (36:10) Yes, that’s her testimony of what happened to her. (36:14) Was she applying for refugee status? (36:17) No. (36:18) That was just for being allowed into Germany? (36:21) We crossed a border every time, except when we got to see in Austria like when we got out of Vienna, that was a Russian zone. So, we walked in the Russian zone. In order to go in like Linz is a city in Austria that’s across the Danube, that was the American zone. My mother had a picture, like a group picture, and the Russians gave us a passport to get across, but the Americans didn’t want us so we … there was always like a group, like 10 – 20 people when I’m talking because that’s how we, nobody went individual. So, when we got across the, we walked across the Danube on the bridge. When we got there, on the American side, but they didn’t want to let us through. And there was a trick as a kid you had to cry and so they felt sorry for us, so they let my mother and myself go through, but the next group they didn’t let go through. They had to go back, so the Russians took them actually. Then people were two weeks earlier in Germany than we were. (37:52) We went to Linz, like I said, we stayed there a couple weeks. Then we went to Passau, that’s a city in Germany. I had an uncle that lived close to that area, we had a destination where we’d go. So, when we crossed the border from Austria into Germany, we laid there all night in the woods until it got daylight and then we’d cross the border. And when we went, it was a rainy day when we went. And the first guy we’d seen with a bicycle had a tarp over his head was a border police. We asked him for directions to the railroad station. When he found out �where we came from, he tried to put us back. There was, I cried again and he let us go and we found the railroad station and when we walked up the steps, my mother – there were people already from our hometown – she just happened to run into a person, she said “Your mother and father are in the main waiting room.” My grandmother and my father were going to go to the Red Cross in Passau to look for us. Nobody know from nobody where anybody is. That’s how I met my father after two, after he was about two years. My grandmother she fled, she retreated with the German army. We had no idea where she was and she, they all went to my uncle. And so then my brother when he got released from the army that’s how we found each other. (40:01) Now, but your sister was still off? (40:07) We had no idea where my sister was. We didn’t find that out until 1948. They were finally able to write, but we had no idea when she comes. Then at the end of 1949, I think, Russia agreed to let most of them go, but there was a lot of them that perished. (40:35) Now once you and your mother have made it to Passau and you now have met back with your father and your grandmother, what does your family do at that point? (40:45) Well, there is nothing… we had … well my father was just released from a Russian prison. He was a Russian prisoner. He was released and he stayed with my grandmother. And when we came, we had to look for someplace to live. So, the German government made everybody give up a room. So, we lived by a farmer. He gave us our bedroom, living room, and dining room. There was only one room, that’s how we slept was kitchen, bedroom, bathroom, I mean, whatever. (41:37) And did you work on the farm? Or did your father work there? �(41:41) No. My father couldn’t work no more after the war. There was actually no work and we stayed there, we got there in ’47 and we stayed there until ’49. And then there were so many people from different countries, from Czechoslovakia, from Poland. (42:11) Right, because a lot of ethnic Germans were kicked out of those countries. (42:14) So, there were so many down that were in Bulgaria and they gave us an option if we would move to the western part of Germany, they gave us a house, for nothing basically. But my sister brought, my sister met her husband in Russia. He came, so she brought her boyfriend along, but of course they got married, but they decided we’d take that offer. So, we went to the western part of Germany. And there was no work either, there was a poor country and a poorer area than we what we left. So, we were there for two years and then we left. (43:07) And what area was that? Or what town? (43:09) In the Eifel, by Bitburg. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. Bitburg was in the news. And I know my brother he worked on that airport, the big building, a big airport. The U.S. did that. And so, we lived there and then there was, uh, my brother ended up in Augsburg, in between Munich and Augsburg. There was a, what they did, the German government, gave people like us the option to build houses for 1% interest with a 99-year mortgage. And that’s how my mother, my parents, my grandparents, of course my grandparents went with us too, to Bitburg, and everybody put their money together and they ended up building a house by Augsburg. My brother did that with his wife and his in-laws. Then we went from Bitburg to Augsburg. (44:32) Now, during this time when you’re in these different places in Germany did you go back to school? (44:39) I was done in school when I left Passau. �(44:43) Ok, so you went to school in Passau? (44:46) Yeah, and then … well I got out of school in ’48 and all I had to do was go to grade school, I mean it’s like a grade school. I had to go with the farmers. Then there was also in Passau the American army created a center for kids who couldn’t find apprenticeship, because to find apprenticeship you had to have connections. They created a center for kids that volunteered to come there if your education was as far as middle grade, so I was there they paid us the fee for the railroad. They gave us the free card. That was a good experience actually. (45:43) Alright, and did you get to know any of the Americans there? (45:48) No, it was just created by the American Army. It was like a free thing, that was the first time I’d seen a baseball bat and a glove. We didn’t know what to do with it, they tried to teach us but none of us had any interest. We played soccer. (46:10) And when you were in Bitburg did you work at all? (46:13) No. I did actually I worked for a farmer for nothing, just for the food. And he was in the woods at times and he used to track deers and wild boars. That’s the reason I worked for him, because he took me along. So, we used to track wild boars and deers. For the one week the American army would come and the next week the French and Austrians would come and they gave us like eight bucks a day. There was lots, a lot of money for me … yeah and that’s all. Then when I came back from Bitburg to Augsburg, we had each house had to put 1200 hours’ worth of labor into the … you had to either work in the house or in the hut. I was the guy who got appointed to that, because my brother was still in Bitburg and I came with my mother and stayed with my brother. So, I did the work for basically us and my brother got credit for like I used to �lay floors, wooden floors. I used to lay wooden floors, paint, stain, whatever there was. Like I said, you got credit. So, many hours you got actually compensated. (48:08) So, at this point are you kind of supporting your family? (48:12) Pardon me? (48:13) Are you supporting your family at this point? (48:16) Not … well my, in a way I did without realizing it. I had nothing better, I had no … and then like three months later I got an apprenticeship. Of course I was looking, we always were looking for, to find something. So, I had finally gotten an apprenticeship and then I worked. (48:40) And what kind of work? (48:43) I was like uh, in the steel trade. You know, it’s like tool die. I would work anything, over there you did anything and what we did, well you start at seven and you work ‘til five and then the workers go home and you have to clean the machines and sweep the floor. So, I used to leave the house at like six and come home six, seven at night every day with the bicycle. I was riding like every day like fifteen kilometers you go with the bicycle and there was not a ten-speed bike, it was just a regular bike. (49:33) Now as time is passing, could you begin to see the German economy doing better? Were there more jobs, or was it still pretty bad? (49:43) Actually, when I was there it was ok, but it wasn’t too good. And I … like I said I started an apprenticeship late. I started three years later than the average guy through moving and stuff. So, I really had no money. I was like eighteen, nineteen. I got like a dollar and a half each week �the first year and two dollars the second and three dollars the third. A week. And that’s it, but that was common. (50:26) Now, did the government provide any support for your family? (50:31) Yes, my father couldn’t work. He got just like, he got like 120 marks a month. Which was, well not enough to live but something. You had to … everybody, nobody got more, they all got the same. (50:53) Um, but did you complete the apprenticeship and get a job? (50:57) I did my apprenticeship and then I went to work for a company that did like caterpillars. They built buildings, they built bridges. It was all in the steel work, but when I graduated you couldn’t work as a journeyman until you had your journeymen’s card. You had to go through a test. I graduated in July and then the next test was not until October. And the place I worked, my hourly wage would up a mark and eight pennies. So, I started at a shop in this steel firm there for two mark and fifty cents, I started as a welder. So, I worked as a welder until I got my journeymen’s card and then I was a welder, mechanic, whatever. (52:04) Ok, now how is it then that you wound up coming to the United States? (53:08) Well that was a funny thing. I went, I had a cousin that was the Uncle we met in Passau, they moved to the US and my cousin was in the American, he came back as a GI, as a soldier and he came to visit us, came to visit his grandma. So, he said when I get done with my apprenticeship to come to US and well that didn’t appeal to me really. But I went to Munich to some party and I came home and I had a bit too much to drink and so the next day my mother got me out of bed and “I want to stay in bed.” She said. I went drinking and she came with a broom stick and got me out. So, instead of going to work, I drove, I hopped a train to go back to Munich �and I had to kill the day so I decided, I found the American Consulate so I went there and filled out some paper. And I wrote my cousin a letter that day if he would sponsor me, not with the intentions of coming and five months later, well a few months later they start doing background checks on me and people would ask me what happened. I said, “I don’t know.” And then I found out what that was and that started the yeah, I’m going to America. Well, when the time came I really didn’t want to go because I had friends there and we had a good time, but since I had a big mouth I had to. So, I came back, I mean I did go to America. (54:27) So, what year did you get to America? (54:30) In ’56. I couldn’t speak one work of English. And I started working for General Motors as a tool and die maker and I just never liked it. I couldn’t speak the language, so I decided to quit and my supervisor says “No, you don’t quit, you take a leave of absence.” Which I didn’t want to do but I finally agreed. So, after eight months I went back home. Well, then times were better in Germany, but I ran out of money, so I came back. Then, I got married and a year later, I told my wife if you marry me we’re going to move back to Germany so we went back to Germany in ’61 and things were not the same. Germany’s economy was in a boom, the people all had cars now, they all had televisions, nobody socialized no more. So, the whole system changed. In the beginning when nobody had a television, we all met in a beer garden. They had a place where you played cards and we always had a good time and that was all gone. (56:09) Now, was your wife American or German? (56:12) American, but she was of German descent. Her parents were German. (56:18) So, would you talk to each other in German most of the time? �(56:21) That we did when my oldest daughter, she was that time like a year and a half. So, my wife could speak that good, she spoke very good German. So, we spoke German, so the little one could speak German when we get there. So, when we came back from Germany a lot of the neighbor kids would laugh at that and she would come home and cry and the kids make fun of her. So, that’s when we decided to speak English. (56:57) Ok, and then did you wind up staying as a tool and die maker? (57:02) Yeah, I worked 36 years for General Motors. (57:07) Alright, well that makes for a really a very interesting story. Are there other things when you think about the time you were living in Europe, whether in Germany or before that, are there other things that stand out in your memory that you haven’t talked about yet? (57:23) Not really, I mean the hop from place to place was really not always exciting. (57:36) Alright, well you’ve had a lot of experiences that a lot of people would have never even thought would have happened. (57:42) Well, that’s a good thing. (57:44) Alright, well thank you very much for taking the time to share your story today. (57:48) Thank you. �Translation of affidavit given by Magdalena Lux when requesting permission to enter Germany with her son, Melchior Lux. Translated by Sarah Schneider Factual Report from Magdalena Lux Maiden name Haus, born on April 26th, 1907 in Backi Gracac, Mother of Melchior Lux, born September 8th, 1935 in Backi Gracac, Bresowatzer street 17, currently traveling through Linz. On the 21st of October in 1944 the first soldiers came to our town Backi Gracac. They did not bother us the first day. On the 26th of October in 1944 the Russians came to our town. I cannot say anything about them, because they only invaded our town and did not do anything to anyone. Afterwards the soldiers began to raid. At first, they took clothes, linen, jewelry, furniture, and gold. On November 1st, 1944 the Partisans announced that all locals who own radios, bicycles, and military items must be turned over to them. Those who did not comply were shot. After November 1st, 1944 those who were fit to work had to work every day in Odzaci at the city’s airfield in order to make it level. It was ploughed down during the evacuation of the Germans. On November 2nd, 1944 (All Souls’ Day) we did not go to work, instead we went to church. We were also not asked by the soldiers to go to work either. While we were in the church, the Russians came to the church to collect the workers who worked in Odzaci. The largest group of the workers were in the church, the Russians chose to surround the church and shoot. After that we left the church. On November 11th, 1944 Mrs. Eichinger, born Eichinger, born in 1905 was shot by the soldiers in front of the vicarage. It was announced before, that the previously mentioned person would be shot and that the citizens must attend the execution. According to the testimony of my relatives, who drove the woman who was shot to the cemetery, Mrs. Eichinger had survived. When they told this to the soldiers, he was slapped, beaten with the butt of the weapon and commanded to bury her. Before he laid her in the grave, he wanted to wrap her in a cloth, which the soldiers prevented him from doing. On November 25th it was announced, that all the men between sixteen and 60 years old needed to report to the municipal office. From these men 85 were locked in the church and 240 drove to Odzaci, from where we learned nothing more. The previous year in the fall, an airport in Odzaci began running, at which one found many human corpses. We assumed that these were the corpses from Backi Gracac. �After November 25th, 1944 we had to go to Sombor to the airport for work. We did not receive food or compensation for the work. On the 27th and 28th of December in 1944 two carriages left our town for Russia. From our town 320 girls and women and 80 men were sent to Russia through these carriages. So, women were sent to Russia and would be forcibly separated from their infants and the children had to leave home without regard of who would take them. In January 1945 every day we had to go to the field through the cold and snow in order to break corn, corn leaves to cut, and so on. A group of us had to go to the hemp factory for work. Here, children as young as seven and men as old as seventy would work. In the factory we would receive taskwork. One person had to produce one cubic meter of Hemp. We were always told that those who could not complete his work were sent to Siberia. In February 1945 all children between the ages of 13 and 17 and their mothers had to go to Sombor with brooms in order to sweep the streets. None of them returned. On March 11th, 1945 the soldiers announced that all that are fit for work had to report. When we, around 500 people, reported we traveled to Sombor. From this, I was assigned to Uprova centralnog logora with 16 women from Backi Gracac. There we had to organize the Russian and partisan soldiers’ bathrooms, rooms, and beds. We stayed here for three weeks. Our bedding here was a small space where we had to sleep on the floor, other than that we were allowed scattered straw. For food they gave us water soup in the morning. In the middle of the day and the evening we were given soup with 20 dkg of corn bread. On April 8th, 1945 we all had to line up. There was something around 1,000 people in the courtyard. There the soldiers shot around us and threatened us: those who did not hand over all of their money and jewelry would be shot. This lasted almost the entire day. Almost all of us were desperate from fear. The men, of whom they could find with no money, they beat so extensively, that skin from their head hung down. On April 10th, 1945 nearly 500 men had to go to Osijek in order to build the city railroad track. The men worked for 5 weeks. From the 500 men, only 150 men returned. Those who returned told how they had to endure inhumane treatment and were beaten so terribly and that’s how many of those who passed died. The rest of those who died were shot. Other statements from those who returned were also terrible. On May 5th, 1945 I arrived in Novi Sivac with 500 people. We had to walk the entire way, around 30 km. Once we arrived in Sivac, we had to travel again, around 20 km, to a federal estate. When we arrived, we would be given work and would work for 2 days in the fields. In the night we would sleep under the trees. There was no space available for us and the soldiers who accompanied us, we headed back to Sivac by foot. During these four days we did not receive anything to eat. �When we arrived in Sivac we were received by the camp commandor, a Jew, who went down every row and hit each person in the face with a riding whip. He then put us to work. In Sivac we had to clean and furnish houses for the Greeks. 5,000 Greeks were coming from Germany to Sivac. When the work was finished, we were to store the extra stock and the next day we would sell it to the farmers. We worked by the farmers on the fields. Everyday the camp commander would drive on the fields to see if we were actually working. He stayed wherever we worked and let us come to the car. We had to stand still in front of the car and he would hit us in the face with a riding whip. After he would say that was not all, because we Schwabiens did not deserve any better. Those who did not work diligently, would receive beatings and it was always like that for us. You all came to a camp where poisonous blows are. They must sting and bite you until you’re dead. And a group of you came to a camp where wild and hungry animals who tear and eat at you until you are all dead. For you, there is no mercy. At the end of May, the partisans forced captive Ustasas [collaborators] through the city. The captives must remain in front of the apartment of the camp commander. Then he came outside and shot three of the Ustasas dead, is what I saw with my eyes. After, the partisans forced the Ustasas towards Veprovac. Two Ustasas received the company of a Partisan. The colonists in Sivac, children and women chased the group, they beat them and threw stones at the Ustasas. In the camp in Sivac we were housed in a space with around 80 people. We had to sleep on the floor. We could not spread any straw and received no blankets. We had to share 3kg of beans or berries among 500 people daily and 1kg of flour for the preparation of the meal. We did not receive salt or fat. We did not receive any medical attention. We had to work on Sundays and holidays. We could not go to church because it was closed. The cemetery was destroyed. All crosses and monuments were knocked over and the wooden cross was burnt. In the camp we were full of vermin. We could not get water to wash and clean ourselves. On the 27th of July 1945 we arrived at a camp in Sentivan. There we had to go to the Hemp Factory to get work. By this work we were always forced and constantly beaten. I would once be beaten at work, only because I wanted to wipe my nose. Since I had diarrhea and was often on the side, I came away with only 7 sticks. From this I had two teeth knocked out and my nose was broken. My facial skin had burst. The meals were the same as they were in Sivac. There was also no medical treatment. The church was closed, the cemetery was destroyed like it was in Sivac. On October 12th, 1945 I arrived in camp Gakovo. In Gakovo we were housed in private housing. When we arrived, there were already camp inmates there. We would be housed in those spaces of the camp inmates who died. There were no more windows or doors. The rooms were full of vermin – what we were already used to from the other camps. In the morning there was ¼ l of water soup, at lunch tainted barely soup that one, despite their giant hunger, could not eat. Most of the camp inmates who ate the soup, died of the consequences. In the evening there was alternate pea – or bean soup. Often one found no beans or peas in the soup. The food would be prepared without salt or fat. The medical treatment was very poor. It was a camp inmate who �was appointed as the doctor, who was very comfortable and who was not even examined. In any case there were no drugs. We could not visit the church and the cemetery. Now and then on big holidays we tried stealthy ways to get into the church. The majority of the time we would be caught by Partisans, driven to the commander’s office and on the entire way beaten with the gunstock. At the commander’s office they beat us women with the bull’s pizzle on the naked bottom. After we would be locked in a basement for three days, where we received no food but only beatings. At Grakovo 100 parentless children came to the school Kanjiza and would be raised in communism. One day 80 young boys without parents came from away from here. Where they came from, we never learned. Three women from Filipovo – Theresia Hönisch, born Harer, year 1912; Anna Pertschi, born Gilich, year 1907, country women; Anna Hog, born Flatt, 48 years old – who all had young children, which before the hunger wailed, that they must die, they had decided, to go begging. On the way they would be caught by the Partisans and were battered in such a way, that Hönisch’s spleen would break, and she would die as a result of this. Pertschi would lose her kidney and in a day she is also dead. Hog dies also due to the beatings in the prison. After Gakovo came also a large number of soldiers that were returning from Russian confinement to the camp. They were so beaten every day, that many of them died. Many of them had their eyes knocked out from the beatings. After the beatings they would be kept in the cellar. But before they came to the cellar, they must stand on the stairs where they got a blow or a bump with a riffle so that they would fall headfirst down the stairs. Due to this, the majority of them would break ribs, legs, arms, etc. When one of them did not fall down the stairs as the Partisans meant, they must again come to the stairs and begin again. While the unfortunate drop down the stairs the Partisans laugh and it makes them jolly. Us women in camp Gakovo must go out in the fields and cut brushwood as well as corn stalks and pull the corn stubs out of the ground. Afterwards must we go back to the town – and in fact 4 women – and fetch a wagon. That we load up with brushwood or corn stalks and the corn stubs and then pull the full wagon home. By this opportunity made it the Partisans great joy to hit and abuse us. We had to pull the wagon there and back about 15 km. In Gakovo in January and February 1948 died 60 to 80 people, once even 120, daily. The people died due to scurvy, dysentery and Typhus, frostbite and mistreatment. The number of camp inmates in Gakovo is unknown to me. The dead were carried out of the houses onto the street. Every afternoon a manure wagon or wheelbarrow would drove there and collected the bodies. These were thrown like a piece of wood onto the wagon and were brought to a mass grave. In a mass grave there were 400 to 600 people. �While I was in Gakovo, 6 women jumped from torment and hunger into a fire and one hanged herself. The cellar was the housing that I was in, would often be used as a prison if the cellar of the Partisan housing was over filled. Next to the cellar was a boiler house. Once, the Partisans poured from a kettle boiling hot water on 37 caged men, women, and children in the cellar. From this scalded 5 women and 7 children so badly, that they died from this mistreatment. On December 20th, 1946 I had decided to go through with my child, what I indeed also succeeded. I went with only 100 people over the border of Hungary from where I came to Linz. I testify, that the above statement fully in accordance with the truth and I am always ready to repeat my statements. I testify the accuracy through my subsequent signature. Linz, February 25th, 1947. Magdalena Lux. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_LuxM2285V Title A name given to the resource Lux, Melchior (Interview transcript and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-05-28 Description An account of the resource Melchior Lux was born in 1935 in Filipowa, an ethnic German community in Yugoslavia, in 1935. When the German military invaded in 1941, Lux and the Germanic townspeople welcomed the incoming soldiers. His brother joined the German Army and, later, his father was forced into the service in early 1944. When the Germans evacuated in October of 1944, along with his brother and father, Serbian partisans took over, instating rations on supplies, but not food. Lux's mother was forced to undergo manual labor for the partisans and his sister was sent to Russia as a forced laborer. The partisans frequently tortured, beat, and abused their German prisoners and local townspeople. Lux remained imprisoned in the town until December of 1946 when his mother paid a guide to help them escape and flee to Hungary. In the Soviet Zone of Occupation, he acquired a passport and was eventually permitted into the American Zone, settling into Passau where his uncle lived. He worked as a welder until he earned his Journeyman's Card and filed paperwork for emigration to the United States, leaving Germany in 1956. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lux, Melchior Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, Yugoslavian Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6abc21f0646e0fef5a8994bd2b4dbd18.mp4 5ca809f491c476b57fd3bfa77833a6c4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8a90d4896d6972f4c6aefb95e44edf8d.pdf 6164bdc45b8894c47f7676a353fb53c7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam Wayne Luznicky Total Time – (01:17:00) Background     He was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1947 (00:15) His father was a machinist and his mother was a clerk in a local food store He has an older and younger sister (00:29) He attended Mark Twain Elementary School and Kelly High School (00:45) o He left high school in 1964 and joined the Marines  He wanted to join the Marines because they were the best (01:11)  Joining the Marines was a way for him to escape issues in his neighborhood and at home (01:17) Enlistment/ Basic Training – (01:22)    He joined the Marines in October of 1964 Basic Training was in San Diego, California o He went to the recruiting station in Chicago on the day he was supposed to report and spent the whole day sitting around (01:46) o He was put on a bus and taken to O’Hare International Airport and took his first airplane ride of his life (02:08) o When he exited in San Diego there was a Drill Sergeant in the terminal, waiting for all of the recruits o The recruits were told to “shut up, spit out the gum, put out the cigarettes, and get in that vehicle over there” (02:32) o They took a small truck to the base  There were 10 men in his group When they arrived, the recruits were told to quickly move and get to a certain location (03:26) o They stood at attention for roughly one hour before they were allowed to go inside (03:50) o Once they went inside there was a lot of screaming and yelling by other Marines o They had to take all of their civilian attire and “contraband” and send it home (04:09) �             o They had two minutes to shower and shave (04:15)  They received their “bucket issue”  The bucket was used throughout all of training (04:45) The soldiers then received their first pair of trousers, socks, belt, covers, and a yellow sweatshirt o The yellow let everyone know that you were new (05:17) The soldiers were assigned to many busy tasks – cleaning floors, swabbing them, running a floor buffer, etc. They continued Police Call work (06:31) He was then assigned to his platoon – he was assigned to Platoon 3001 Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 2nd Recruiting Regiment (06:47) o They were taught how to make their racks, square away their foot lockers, and were able to shower When soldiers first started marching, they had to link arms with the Private on both sides (07:41) o There was tape on the pavement that was set up at a thirty inch pace (08:06) They learned Marine Corps. history o They spent roughly 1/3 of their time on Marine Corps. history (08:44)  They learned the nomenclature and operation of the M14, first aid, hygiene, different aspects of living in the field, and some other things The physical training included pushups, sit-ups, and squat thrusts every morning (09:58) o They would have to run, there was an obstacle course, confidence course, bayonet training, and hand-to-hand combat training o He was average when it came to the physical aspects of training (10:33)  It was not difficult – the biggest problem he had was the rope climb  The Drill Instructor gave him some personal help (10:57) There were some Marines that were overwhelmed by the training (11:16) o They were put into a special squad – they remained with the platoon but were put into a squad that had more time spent on physical conditioning Every Marine graduated that he was there with (11:58) Around the third week of Basic Training, he took his aptitude test (12:26) The rifle range was three weeks long (12:46) o The first week was familiarizing oneself with firing the rifle o The second week was learning the different positions one could fire from o The third week was snapping in (13:10)  Snapping in is squeezing the trigger but not firing real ammo He had been in training for three weeks before the rifle training The last week of rifle training was qualification (14:11) o They were supposed to qualify in the morning but there was a heavy fog – they had a stand down and had to go through the qualification process later in the day o It was Christmas Eve of 1964 �         o They were allowed to have packages sent to them (14:49) Because they did well in their qualification, the Drill Instructors allowed the packages to be opened and everyone could partake in the goodies (15:25) o Some held back from eating the goodies – there was always payback o One Private received a box of cigars (15:56)  The Drill Instructors made the non-smokers smoke the cigars The soldiers had a nice cooked meal on Christmas (17:09) o He did not want to partake again because he knew there would be payback once again o The following day, the Marines had to go four miles down the beach doing Double Time (17:50)  They had to go from Camp Pendleton to Camp Del Mar There were seventy men in his training platoon (18:17) When they returned to San Diego, California from rifle training, the Marines had four more weeks of Basic Training (18:27) o Basic Training totaled fourteen weeks The first week back in San Diego was spent on Mess Duty After that, there was more classroom work (18:54) They were fitted for their uniforms as well At this point, the Drill Instructors were not as harsh as they had previously been There were two different physicals that they had to go through (19:36) o The first was the standard pushups and other activities (19:41) o The other was physical readiness testing  He had to wear full field gear and do certain drills  All of the events were timed and had to be done properly (20:40)  His platoon did extremely well ITR Training – (21:20)       After Basic Training, he had ITR (Infantry Training Regiment) (21:27) ITR was at Camp Pendleton in San Onofre, California (21:32) ITR training consisted of learning how to fire automatic weapons, having demonstrations of the rocket launchers, the 60mm mortar, the M79 grenade launcher, they threw hand grenades, learned about white phosphorous, smoke grenades, they learned infantry tactics, etc. o The M1 was used in the ITR (23:00) o They all fired the BAR and the 50 Caliber They learned how to ride in helicopters and deploy once they hit the ground (23:28) They participated in a war game (23:40) o Operation Silver Lance  He was a part of the aggressor force The ITR was a six week program (24:00) �            He, along with some other men, were told that they were going to report to Naval Air Station in Memphis, Tennessee for Aviation Training He was able to go home for a 20 day leave before reporting to Memphis (24:45) At this point he was very aware of what was going on in Vietnam o He was aware of Vietnam before he enlisted (25:20) The first Marines landed in Da Nang, Vietnam when he was wrapping up his ITR When he arrived in Memphis, he went to the receiving barracks (26:31) o He spent a week there until he was put through a series of tests where he was asked different questions o They were able to express any preference for a job (26:58)  Some of the jobs were aircraft mechanics, hydraulic mechanics, sheet metal men, etc. o He qualified for anything he wanted (27:49)  He ended up choosing to be a mechanic (27:58)  He wanted the chance to work with helicopters The training to be a mechanic was roughly three months long He was trained how to use a file, a drill, what the different manuals were, how to be an aircrewman, and went through simulated jumps o They were taught the different principles that aircraft operate on (26:33) After the training he was certified as a general mechanic He never trained on a specific type of aircraft (27:59) He graduated in early August of 1965 He was assigned to the Marine Corps Air Station at Cherry Point, North Carolina (30:25) o He was assigned to the VMFA (Marine Fighter Attack Squadron) 323  They were shipping out but it was decided that he would stay behind (30:48) o He then worked with the VMFA 513 (30:58) He did regular maintenance and mechanic work at Cherry Point on the Phantom F4B (31:30) Specialized Vietnam Training – (31:40)    In January of 1966, word came that the military was looking for volunteers to go to Vietnam (31:53) o He jumped on it and volunteered  It was where the action was and he wanted to see how he would react to a combat zone (32:10) He heard talk of Da Nang Air Base and the night that it was hit o The weapons were locked up in the armory when they were hit (33:07) He then went home on a short leave before reporting back at Camp Pendleton (34:11) �    o He went through another month of infantry training that was tailored for Vietnam o They watched movies of the atrocities that the Viet Cong committed (34:44) o They went through field problems  One field problem was “Nightmare Alley” and it had all of the booby traps that one could encounter in Vietnam  There was a simulated POW (Prisoner Of War) (35:25)  It was a SERE course (Survival, Escape, Resistance and Evasion) (35:37)  The simulated POW camp lasted three days (36:20) When they were in the POW training camp, they had to find a way to get out o The “enemy” had taken most of his equipment except for his can opener and PFC Chevron (38:09) o He and another Marine started scraping at a piece of wood that became weak enough that they could set it on fire o They were eventually cut loose (39:03) While he was training for Vietnam, he never had any second thoughts about what he was doing The worst part was simulating an abandoned ship – they had to swim the length of a swimming pool (39:32) o By the time they were given there equipment, it was all waterlogged from previous training They then boarded an aircraft that stopped in Hawaii to refuel and eventually landed in Okinawa (40:10) Active Duty – First Tour – (40:37)       The Marines were processed in Okinawa o They spent three days there drinking beer and waiting to be shipped out o At this point they did not know where they were going to be shipped out to (41:07)  He just knew he was going as a replacement When they left Okinawa, he looked out of his porthole and the engine was on fire (41:51) They switched aircrafts and then flew to Da Nang, Vietnam (42:01) o They landed around noon His first impression of Vietnam was that it was hot (42:20) o He also noticed that Da Nang Air Base was very busy They had noon chow before he processed and on his way to Chu Lai, Vietnam (42:44) o Chu Lai was thirty miles south of Da Nang He had heard that Chu Lai was contested and not a secure area (43:08) o The “bad guys” were taking pot shots and occasionally attacking the airfield �                 o When he got off the plane in Chu Lai he saw smoke rising everywhere – it turned out that they were burning their sewage (43:35) He was then assigned to VMA (Marine Attack Squadron) 214 (43:54) o He was a mechanic on the E4 Skyhawk Every day he would report and would work standard maintenance jobs (44:47) The mechanics would also have to man the perimeter at some points as well (45:11) o It was typically every fourth night o He was using an M14 and sometimes the M60 (45:25) There were a couple of nights where they took fire on watch (46:36) o They were mortared a couple of times o The attacks were more harassment than anything else (47:02) There were four Fixed Wing Squadrons and some helicopter units in Chu Lai He remained in Chu Lai for his entire first tour (48:36) He would sometimes have to fix battle damage done on aircraft The morale of the unit when he was there was very high His unit had Caucasian, black, Chicano, and oriental individuals (49:43) There was a small PX, a club where soldiers could get beer, and a show where movies were played o The only time he went was when the TV show “Combat” was playing (50:22)  They were mortared in Chu Lai as the TV show played Germans sending mortars against the Americans He worked seven days a week (51:18) He received his first R&R at Christmas of 1966 and he spent it in Singapore (52:07) o Singapore was fantastic for him o It was one of the cleanest cities in the East (52:13) o He did not have a choice of anywhere else to go o His R&R was five days long o It was not difficult for him to return to Vietnam (52:36) He was in Vietnam for nine months before he received his first R&R When he returned to Vietnam there was no change in his attitude (53:22) o There was high morale and they were proud of what they were doing (53:30) He finished out his tour in Chu Lai – he had enlisted into the Marines for four years In the process of returning home he processed out of Da Nang and the following morning he flew to Okinawa o He spent five days in Okinawa (54:09) o He had to get his uniform ready to wear home o He had lost a few pounds while in Vietnam (54:30) He then flew from Okinawa on a civilian flight that went directly to Treasure Island near San Francisco, California (55:12) �    o After he processed through there he got on a plane to go home for thirty days (55:29) o He went home in May of 1967 When he was returning home the soldiers were told of anti-war protestors (55:46) o They were told not to confront them o They were told not to wear their uniform when they were home (55:57) He was then assigned to back to Cherry Point, North Carolina o He was assigned to the MAG 24, VMFA 531 – they flew the Phantoms At Cherry Point, there were some other Vietnam veterans there (56:33) o When he joined the Marines, there was still a high morale o There were some that asked him of his opinions on the war (56:58) o Some were nervous to go and others were eager to go (57:11) He was at Cherry Point from late June of 1967 – late January of 1968 (57:32) Active Duty – Second Tour – (57:37)           He then volunteered to go on a second tour of Vietnam o Stateside duty was a pain to him (57:44)  The inspections bothered him  He was used to just doing his job It was not difficult for him to get reassigned (58:32) o One NCO told him that he could go to Vietnam if he signed the waivers (58:45) o At this point he was a Sergeant – E5 ranking After he signed the waiver he went home for a few days before reporting to Camp Pendleton (59:14) His mother had anxieties about him going back His friends at the time did not understand what he was doing When he was back at Fort Pendleton, he had to repeat some of the training that he had already done (59:57) o Some of the training had changed o There were a lot of night field problems (01:00:08) o He fired the M16 for the first time o The training curriculum was improved and had changed based on experiences (01:02:13) His first training was better than his second training (01:02:45) The morale of the guys going through in his second training was normal but not as high as the first time he went Some of the soldiers were draftees (01:03:14) o The draftees did not want to go He then flew in a civilian aircraft to Okinawa – they stopped in Alaska to refuel before going to Okinawa (01:03:58) o He spent a couple of days in Okinawa before traveling to Da Nang, Vietnam �         o He then went to Chu Lai, Vietnam where he was assigned to the VMFA 323 and worked on Phantoms (01:04:16) Chu Lai was much larger than the previous time he had been there o He got there in April of 1968 (01:04:46) As soon as they landed, blacks and whites were separated because they had learned that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. had been assassinated (01:05:03) o He does not believe that the majority of the black Marines enjoyed getting the news as separate from the white soldiers o He did not recognize any segregation between the Marines The morale changed at that point (01:05:56) o On the second trip, many of the men just wanted to get their tour over – on the first trip, many felt as though they were cavaliers (01:05:54) In Chu Lai he volunteered to do a thirty day stand on perimeter duty o He was with the Army on the perimeter (01:07:13)  It was some distance from the Air Base o The Americal Division that he worked with were very professional (01:08:01)  He believes that 7th Marine Regiment did a better job than the Americal Division On his second tour the enemy’s ordinance changed – they were shooting rockets instead of the occasional mortar rounds (01:08:42) o There was some counter-fire that occurred (01:09:10  There was one night where they hit the enlisted men’s club  The soldiers were sitting in an open area drinking beer when they saw an aircraft coming in to bomb – they saw a secondary explosion and celebrated His second tour finished in late October of 1968 (01:11:14) He spent just over six months on his second tour The process of coming home from his second tour was the same as the first time o The one difference was, when returning from Okinawa, he flew to Marine Corps Air Station El Toro near Irvine, California (01:11:48)  There were quite a few of the soldiers that were getting off there There was an attempt to get the men to reenlist (01:12:12) After the Service – (01:12:18)       The LAPD and Los Angeles Sheriffs Department were at El Toro, trying to recruit the soldiers (01:12:19) He spent a week in El Toro getting civilized (01:12:36) He then received his physical and processed out He received the same advice about anti-war protestors after his second tour (01:13:20) He had one encounter with war protestors in downtown Chicago, Illinois roughly one month after being home When he returned home, he spent two weeks relaxing (01:14:22) �      He then got a job with a finance company (01:14:34) He then decided to go and become a police officer and joined the Chicago Police Force o He worked there for five years (01:14:50) After he worked as a police offer, he worked at a factory as a supervisor (01:15:34) o He eventually began working as a machinist He went back to school and took some classes His family had vacationed in Hesperia, Michigan (01:16:21) o They had a small cottage there He was divorced and he met his wife in Hesperia – she was living in Grand Rapids, Michigan � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LuznickyW1462V Title A name given to the resource Luznicky, Wayne (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Luznicky, Wayne Description An account of the resource Wayne Luznicky was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1947. He joined the Marines in October of 1964 and took his Basic Training in San Diego and infantry training Camp Pendleton, California. He then went to Memphis, Tennessee, for aviation mechanic training, and was assigned to Cherry Point, North Carolina where he worked on Phantom F4B. In January of 1966, Wayne volunteered to go to Vietnam. He was stationed at the Air Base at Chu Lai. After his first tour of Vietnam, and spending some time at Cherry Point, North Carolina, he volunteered for a second tour, and was again at Chu Lai from April to October of 1968. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Marine Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-01 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8fa4452548bbcc332216ea398af2a34b.mp4 df5a0c88582e08cae64e8b371412a5ea https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e27b95708164ee664ede2ff6d9ac5a31.pdf c67e8c8e99c00f937819dc8ad82c222e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Elbert Lyles (36:30) Back ground information (00:09)             Born May 10th, 1920 in Mississippi. He grew up in the area. (00:10) His mother worked as a maid and housekeeper. (00:30) He was an only child. (00:53) He completed school through the 10th grade.(approx 1936) (1:03) He went to segregated schools. (1:15) In 1936 he got a job working on an ice truck delivering blocks of ice. The blocks of ice weighted about 300 pounds but they were cut into 60 5-pound blocks. (2:30) He did this work until he began working in a cotton seed plant. (3:15) In the late 30s before Pearl Harbor he had no idea of what was going on in Europe. (4:05) He recalls hearing about Pearl Harbor on the radio in 1941. (4:27) He didn’t have a drive to join the military after Pearl Harbor, however, his friends did. Soon after they left, Elbert decided that he might as well join too in 1942. (4:55) After enlisting he was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky in 1942. (5:55) Basic training (6:00)               He arrived at Fort Knox via bus. (6:08) When arriving, he was assigned clothes as well as a barracks. (approx. 30 per barracks.) (6:33) He was trained separately from the white soldiers. (7:09) There were several black officers training him including a black Lieutenant. (7:17) The training consisted of exercise, weapons training, and military discipline. (7:46) He thought it was easy to adjust to military discipline. (8:30) He believed that he was treated fairly and that the white officers treated him fairly as well. (9:11) He received no special training after completing basic. (9:40) He was sent to the port he would ship out of from via train. (10:07) He sailed to Africa in a large navy ship. He recalls that the boat trip made the men sick. (10:50) They were approx. 200-300 men on the ship and they were free to move around. (11:17) He sailed in a convoy that traveled in a zigzag pattern. (11:40) There was a U-boat sighted when traveling to Europe but it was eventually chassed off. (12:10) He arrived in Oran, Algeria. (12:52) Service in Africa (12:55)(1942-1943) �          The men were loaded up on truck after arriving and driven to camps. (13:04) Here he served as a cook for an engineer battalion. (13:10) He was given a little bit of training for being a cook after he was assigned this title. (13:34) He cooked for the entire unit. (14:07) The cooks slept with the other men. (14:29) For sleep the men mostly slept in houses aside from tents (14:42) The soldiers he was with were constructing facilities and roads to set up a camp. (15:05) He saw a lot of native Arabs. It was very easy for him and other men to associate with them and trade. (15:45) The men were not allowed into town or villages unless given a pass. (16:50) He moved place to place within North Africa. He stayed in North Africa for a relatively short amount of time. Approx. 6 months. (17:06) Service in Italy (17:50)(1943-1944)                    After serving 6 months in North Africa he was sent to Sicily and Italy. (17:55) The men arrived in Italy from North Africa through Naples. (18:10) The battalion served delivering things to front as well as making repairs to roads and facilities. (18:38) While most men were about the same age as Elbert, there were a few that were 5-10 years older than him. These were mostly enlisted men. (19:02) The men cooked day on day off. If it was his day on he had to wake up earlier than the other soldiers. (19:20) At times the men had fresh food. However most of it was canned. (19:55) When he had a day on cooking, he was required to work essentially all day. (20:46) When given a day off, he spent his time around camp, using a pass to town, or sleeping. (21:07) When the men went to town they typically drank. He didn’t notice the Italians treating the Americans poorly. (21:19) Segregation was a new idea to the Italians. The White soldiers would tell the Italian civilians that the black soldiers were monkeys with long tails. (21:58) Some Italians could speak English. When they talked to soldiers they just wanted to know what was going on and why they were there. (22:37) While in Italy the men were sent up to the front briefly but then taken back to their position. (23:32) The Germans would occasionally bomb the places where he and his battalion were building. His Battalion did take casualties. (24:09) They were never close enough to come under fire by artillery. (25:25) While in Italy he was there for 3 years and 2 months. (26:16) He was given the chance to visit Rome. Here he was sent in a group by truck. (27:03) They stayed in Rome over night and they were given a place to stay. (27:59) 2 men in his battalion from Chicago got into a fight and one ended up killing the other. (29:37) He and his mother wrote to each other often. (30:09) �The German surrender. (30:57)     His camp was very excited about the surrender, hoping they would go home. (31:01) Because the weather on the way back was nicer, he did not get seasick. (31:45) He believes he arrived in Boston. (32:35) After arriving in the U.S. he was sent to a camp before he was discharged. (probably Fort Knox.)(32:50) Life after service (33:25)        After returning back he returned to the cotton seed plant where he worked before he enlisted because they had to guarantee him his job back when he returned. (33:30) He then received a job working in a hotel in Grand Rapids, Michigan. (33:48) This job was arranged by his uncle who already resided in Michigan. (34:01) After working at the hotel he began working at a furniture factory in Grand Rapids. (34:34) He got married after service and has 1 daughter. (35:00) He doesn’t believe he gained very much experience form his military service. He does not know if it was worth doing. (35:34) He disliked being away from his family and friends. (36:12) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LylesE1184V Title A name given to the resource Lyles, Elbert (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lyles, Elbert Description An account of the resource Elbert Lyles was born in Mississippi in 1920. After leaving school in 1936, he worked as an iceman and in a cottonseed plant. He enlisted in the Army in 1942 and served in both North Africa and Italy in an all black engineer battalion. During his time in service, he served as a cook for his battalion who had the task of delivering supplies to the front and setting up more permanent camps. In this interview, Elbert gives an overview of what his cook duties entailed and how being an African American affected his military service. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa16a57eb8efea7f583d57abeb49ca37.mp4 0f72e96739c0330afe6a1ba3319891ad https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c79b4775892d02dce324eeb2993c0b18.pdf e8ee4bf598dd122eb31dd3927c54ba5b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Other veterans & civilians Name of Interviewee: Ron Lyon Length of interview (01:02:26) (0:00:10) Background Born in Flint, MI on November 14, 1941, three weeks before Pearl Harbor. (0:00:26) Grew up about 20 miles northeast of Flint. (0:05:07) Father served in the Philippines in the infantry during World War II. Was colorblind and therefore able to see through camouflage. (0:01:00) Father worked as the head of the catalogue department for Buick. (0:06:27) Was the oldest child. Had one sister and a brother. (0:07:07) Suffered from hay fever, asthma, and several allergies throughout grade school. Despite this, he played sports until 10th grade, but had to quit when his symptoms inhibited his breathing. (0:02:56) Attended Lakeville High School. Describes the consolidated school system. (0:07:35) When his health kept him out of sports, he dedicated his time elsewhere. He played first chair trumpet in the band, participated in all high school plays, was the head of the Drama Club, and participated in Debate Club. (0:08:53) Attended community college for a few years studying pre-med. Wasn’t getting much out of it and decided to join the service to learn discipline. (0:09:51) Looking back, wishes that he had gone on to become a veterinarian. (0:11:15) Joined the service in September, 1962. (0:02:49) (0:11:52) Service in New York City Signed up for a missile defense site for New York City. Compared to his small town, New York City fascinated him. (0:11:52) Asked him to go into the army as an officer, but he declined. (0:12:55) FBI had to perform a background check on him before giving him top secret clearance. (0:20:52) Had a top secret clearance and therefore took care of all nuclear warheads and tools for his company. (0:13:39) Training for this included special advanced classes. (0:13:55) Was at the base during the Cuban Blockade. (0:14:05) Was the only one on base with top secret clearance on base during the John F. Kennedy assassination because the base was undergoing maintenance and everyone else had gone to New York City for the weekend. (0:14:21) Describes being instructed by a general from the SAC Air Command to arm all missiles with nuclear warheads and put up as many as possible, to put the guard dogs patrolling the perimeter on attack mode, and to shoot anyone at the gate that he didn’t recognize. (0:15:51) Didn’t know what was going on until the news of the assassination came on the radio later. (0:19:07) Recalls that the experience was very scary because he was a [Spec-4] at the time and had �never dealt with an emergency without supervision. (0:20:06) Explains the constant fear during the Cold War. (0:21:40) After the missiles were armed, helped manage and fire the missiles (0:22:58) Says that if he had been ordered to fire a missile or shoot someone if it were absolutely necessary, he wouldn’t have hesitated whatsoever. (0:23:20) The first sargeant and the lieutenant and had returned by the time that Kennedy was taken to the hospital and pronounced dead. Was relieved once the higher officers had returned. (0:25:03) Was stationed at this base for 14 months. (0:25:49) Was able to see several Broadway shows because he was stationed in New York City on the weekends. Received the tickets for free from the USO. (0:25:58) Recalls that being in New York City was an adventure. (0:29:49) The base closed down and was turned over to the National Guard. (0:30:38) Describes the switch from small nuclear warheads to high TNT missiles before he left. (0:30:50) Worked with the state police and was in charge of the Nuclear Biological Chemical Warfare team. (0:31:46) (0:32:15) Service in Germany Worked in the 9th Chemical Company outside of [Mannheim], Germany, which suppored all of the 7th Army. Provided gas masks, flame throwers, and decontamination trucks. (0:32:15) Represented his base as the Chemical Corps during the [War Games with other countries] because he was the only one with top secret clearance. Was the lowest ranking person in attendance. (0:32:57) Was in Germany for 14 months. (0:36:05) Was surprised that he was sent there because he hadn’t had 18 months of experience, which was the requirement. Was thankful because he was able to see various parts of Germany, Switzerland, France, northern Italy. (0:36:30) Was frequently left in charge while his first sergeant was out trying to sell things that were new to biological and chemical warfare to the countries of NATO. Every time he was left in charge, his first sergeant would award him three or four days of vacation. (0:37:36) Attended a 30 day program at the NCO Academy which included map reading, instructional training, and leadership. Only had about two hours of sleep every night while there. Describes his daily routine. (0:39:39) The top four received a promotion, but was 5th in his class. (0:41:52) Describes skiing in the Alps. Had broken his ankle 6 weeks before while playing in a basketball tournament on post. (0:47:35) (0:51:13) Life after Service Arrived in New Jersey at an Air Force base near Fort Dix and was discharged. (0:51:42) Returned to the Flint area and worked as a salesman for 7 or 8 months. (0:51:18) Was married three times after the war. (0:52:19) Applied for Skilled Trades at the Chevrolet Metal Factory and worked there for 36 years. (0:52:37) �Returned to college at the University of Michigan in Flint while working and got a degree in Urban Studies. (0:55:07) Has had several strokes and the cognitive portion of his brain does not deal well with stress. (0:57:42) Says that the service gave him a lot of discipline and gave him a deep understanding of army regulations. (1:00:07) Received several Solder of the Quarter and Soldier of the Month awards. (1:01:23) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LyonR Title A name given to the resource Lyon, Ron (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lyon, Ron Description An account of the resource Ron Lyon was born in Flint, MI on November 14, 1941. After a few years at community college, he realized that he wasn't getting anything out of college and decided to join the service. In September of 1962, he signed up for a missile defense site for New York City. After being investigated by the FBI and taking several advanced classes, Ron received top secret clearance and took care of all nuclear warheads and tools for his company. He served for 14 months in New York City and 18 months in Germany. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-08-11 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b72738f3e68ff70985d6f7d2b22ab908.mp4 122b81de54276dc260dcce5ff9ef817b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/503b12b874d2dba9f89036ad147c53d2.pdf cd548a290aba682d9051f931de6d2710 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Glenn Lyons (2:15:27) Background Information (1:55)                            His grand parents immigrated to the U.S. and lived in South Dakota, Illinois, and then Michigan. (2:48) His grandparents worked as farmers in the early 1900s late 1800s. (3:32) His father was the oldest of 4 children. (2 boys and 2 girls) (4:00) His father worked in a furniture factory in Grand Rapids, Michigan. (5:11) Glenn was born April 4th 1920 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. (5:28) He is the 2nd youngest of 6 children. (3 girls and 3 boys) (5:45) At the age of 2, his family moved out to Silver Lake, Michigan, in 1922. (6:57) After several years in Silver Lake the family moved once more to Cannonsburg, Michigan in 1925. This is where Glenn began school. (8:16) The school was a 1 room school house with 2 stories. 7th grade and up was upstairs, downstairs were all the other grades. (8:34) After several years in Cannonsburg he moved south of Rockford, Michigan. (8:58) He then moved once more in Rockford and attended White Swan public school. (9:58) As a child he enjoyed ice fishing. (10:30) When going to school he had to carry his lunch to school every day. He recalls being intimidated by the older kids in his class who were older. (12:30) A pot belly stove was used to heat the school. (14:00) At age 15 he worked for 20 dollars a month in 1935. He was hired to milk cows by hand and assists in a saw mill. (14:27) He graduated elementary school in after 8th grade (approx. 1935) (17:44) He graduated from Pratt Lake one room school house. (18:05) He started high school at Pratt Lake in 1937. He wanted to play football but could not due to his chores at home. (18:50) After walking to school all first semester he purchased a 1928 Model A Ford for 50 dollars total. (20:00) His father then got a job at a canning factory. To get there, he used Glenn’s car. (20:27) He recalls the seizing of other countries by Germany during the late 1930s and early 1940s. (21:56) While in the 10th grade (approx. 1938/1939) he was kicked out of his home because his father couldn’t afford to have him live there. He applied for jobs in factories but he was not hired due to him being too close to the draft age. (23:03) He did find a job as a farm hand. (24:10) He met his wife originally in his one room school house. In 1938 he re-met her. (24:40) He was drafted into the U.S. Army on November 24th 1941.(26:40) After he was drafted he tried to enlist in the Navy but they would not take him due to his mother's tuberculosis. (27:02) He was drafted in the 2nd wave of draftees from Grand Rapids, Michigan. (27:40) �Basic training (27:44)                           He was then sent to Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan. (27:49) The first thing they had him do once he arrived was peeling potatoes at 4:00 in the morning. (28:00) He was then sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky. This was the furthest he has ever been from home at the time. (28:50) He was in Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training. Basic training lasted approx. 9 weeks. (29:19) Basic consisted of a lot of marching and learning of military discipline. (29:30) When finished with basic, he was going to be chosen to stay at Fort Knox and be a corporal and assist in training, but he was replaced and then sent to Fort Benning, Georgia. (30:00) He recalls that while in Kentucky during the winter of 1942 it rained often. (30:30) When he arrived at Fort Benning, Georgia he had not had any furloughs. He was given a 10 day leave in April of 1942. During his leave he traveled by train Back to Michigan. (31:48) He had to take a train to Atlanta then to Chicago then to Grand Rapids, Michigan. (32:10) While on his furlough he married his wife. They were planning on getting married in August but instead got married to his wife Florence on April 10th 1942. (34:48) He returned back to Fort Benning and became a supply truck driver. (36:05) The men were given the opportunity to drive the tank. The tanks the men used were shift tanks, with airplane engines in their back end. (36:59) He was then sent to Fort Bragg, North Carolina. (approx. June of 1942) (38:25) His truck was so heavy with all the men’s supplies when driving to Fort Bragg that he fell behind other men who traveled by truck. (38:50) He was instructed on the drive to Fort Bragg to stay over on the right side of the road. The ground was soft due to rain. As a result the truck flipped and a man in the back of his truck had his ear cut off. (39:30) A wrecker from the division was sued to tip the truck back over. (40:15) At Fort Bragg the tanks learned maneuvers. The men were given new tanks [M-5 Stuarts] with Cadillac engines in them (41:13) The cannon on the tank was small at 37 mm. (41:58) The company was then told they would be shipped to Africa. (42:30) The men were given landing practice with the tanks while stationed in Virginia. (43:14) While in Virginia he was given a 10 day furlough. (45:20) He was then sent to New Jersey where he would assist in the training of men for tank landings. At this time he was a corporal. (46:06) Before being shipped out he drove a supply truck to New York to ship over to Africa. (48:33) He shipped out on a flat-bottomed ship formerly used to ship railroad cars. (49:57) While being sent over to Africa, men had particular jobs aboard the ship such as a guard and lookout. (50:37) 2 days before arriving in Casablanca in Africa he spotted a torpedo and warned of its approach. The ship successfully evaded it. (50:50) Arrival in Casablanca (52:00) �     He arrived in Casablanca on December 24th, 1942. His job once the ship landed was to unload supplies. On Christmas he ate with the Navy. It was the only Christmas while in the service where he didn’t have some sort of assignment. (52:42) There were some French in Casablanca at the time when he arrived. (53:53) From Casablanca he was supposed to be moved with his company to Sicily Italy to aid in the invasion of Sicily. However he fell ill and was hospitalized for 5 days, missing the invasion. (55:11) After his hospitalization he was sent to Oran in Western North Africa and shipped out by boat to Wales. England. (57:00) Arrival in England (57:00)      He was then sent by train from Wales to Oxford, England In December of 1943, where he stayed in a Barracks. (57:35) When being sent from Oran to Wales, the men were given ice cream by the Red Cross. (58:39) The trek in the Atlantic was choppy and many of the men got sick. (59:30) There were so many troops on the ship he sailed on to Wales that some men were assigned to sleep nights and the others assigned to sleep days due to lack of beds. (1:01:05) While in England, they did go in to London on one occasion and see sights and visit pubs. (1:04:43) Invasion of Normandy (1:05:00)        His company went into Normandy on June 16th 1944 (10 days after the invasion on June 6th.) (1:06:20) At this time he was still a Liaison Corporal (a Jeep driver.) (1:06:35) While landing on the beach, a ship next to him was hit by a mine and the ship was destroyed. (1:07:00) He unloaded on a shallow part of the beach. When he drove the jeep into the water it was shallow enough that his feet didn’t get wet. (1:07:50) The beach was covered with destroyed equipment and the terrain looked to have been worn horribly. (1:09:00) At the time of his arrival, only 10 square miles had been secured by Allied forces [actually more than that, even at Omaha, but the beachhead was still much smaller than planned]. (1:09:50) His captain than instructed that he wanted to go to the front, so Glenn took him in his jeep. He recalls while he was driving this there were times he was told to drive fast and not slow down due to the spotting of snipers who fired upon the jeep. (1:10:03) Service in Northern Europe (1:11:00)   After arriving, his company was supposed to invade a town. The day before the company next to him was hit by a German bomb. (1:11:56) The men took the town with some combat and moved on. Shortly after he was given a leave of absence and moved on to Paris. (1:13:23) �          His company moved through the intersection of Belgium, France and Germany. (1:14:58) He and his commander had coffee at a Frenchman’s house. Shortly after leaving the house was struck with an explosive round. (1:15:45) While moving across the European countryside, the company went under fire by another American company on their right who mistook them for the enemy. (1:18:00) He served in B Company, 1st Battalion, 7th Armored Regiment, 2nd Armored Division (all light tanks) (1:18:50) When the military began a spearhead maneuver his company was on the outside of the spear head providing cover. (1:20:09) Shortly after the men moved back and took a house to make into the head quarters in December of 1944. (1:20:40) The men had Christmas dinner on December 31st 1944.(1:22:48) Air support was sometimes given. The men would have assistance form P38s and P47s. the P38s often were subjected to friendly fire. (1:28:58) The men would often start being shelled by artillery without warning as they advanced. He was nearly struck by a shell but never was seriously injured. (1:23:40) Some men became shell shocked as a result of this fire. (1:24:41) The surrender of the 41st infantry (1:25:40)   The [someone from the] 41st Infantry [German infantry division] called his division and said that they knew of the Allied approach and were going to surrender. (1:25:50) The Germans came in a covered truck. When the curtain was lifted the germens opened machine gun fire on the American company. Latter, Glenn’s company arrived and one surviving American from the massacre told of what happened. (1:26:05) Service in Northern Europe (cont.) (1:26:15)       The cold weather led to many problems with engines including difficulty starting or tanks trucks and jeeps. (1:26:38) When entering the boarder of Germany many German forces had retreated. The advanced was more of a cleanup rather than invasion. (1:29:34) Near the end of the war Glenn had the job of taking men who had enough points for leave to locations where they could get picked up. After words, it was up to him and his radioman to reconnect with the company. (1:29:20) While in no-man’s-land with several other officers, he was passed a bottle of alcohol that the other officers were drinking. However because he was caught with the bottle, his stripes were cut off and he was bumped from a corporal to a private. Now he operated the radio and the former radio operator was the driver. (1:30:00) He was later told that because the officer who bumped him down didn’t know who he was to just sew his strips back on. Several days later he was a corporal once more. (1:31:15) He crossed the Rhine River, however was unable to see it due to “asphalt Blindness.” This refers to the impaired vision men had when following a tank on asphalt and having the tank rip up the ground and throw it in the air. (1:31:31)] �        He had to visit the medic to have his eyes washed out. (1:32:40) He became the assistant driver of a staff tank due to his inability to see. His vision later returned at 4AM the next day. (1:33:20) He got pneumonia and stayed in the hospital for a few weeks. When he was relived he caught a supply truck back to his unit. (1:34:18) When he rejoined his unit, the commander of a tank got sent home after getting enough points. She he was then made a tank commander. (1:35:00) At this time his company was in German heading to Berlin. When they arrived there the Russians turned them away. (1:35:42) It took 3 attempts to enter the city before the Russians allowed Americans access. (1:35:18) The company seized a large building for the men to stay in. while exploring the basement of that building they found that it was full of dead bodies. (1:36:38) He was then given a 3 days leave of absence in the U.S. But after turning in their tanks at the France German Border in August of 1945, he heard that Japan had surrendered. (1:38:02) Post surrender service (1:38:50)          He then took a train from Germany through France. (1:38:50) He was told that his company was to replace the occupation forces on the French Riviera. (1:40:21) He got on a ship headed to Boston. He gambled to pass tome o the ship. (1:42:00) While crossing the Atlantic they hit a Hurricane near the Canary Islands. (approx. September 1945). (1:40:30) The top deck of the ship had women on it but he and the other male soldiers were not allowed to visit it. (1:43:00) He landed in Boston in October of 1945 and was sent to Camp Grant, Illinois. (1:43:15) He was discharged at Camp Grant, Illinois and then was sent by train to Chicago. (1:44:14) The train tickets and taxis between two different train stations were paid for by the military. (1:44:38) He took a train back to Grand Rapids, Michigan. (1:45:10) Life after Service (1:46:17)         His wife stayed with her mother on Ramsdale Avenue in Grand Rapids Michigan.(1:46:20) His first job was painting a house for pay. (1:47:10) He then was hired on a dock. While there he saved the foreman after having a heart attack. (1:47:49) In April of 1946 he bought a 120 acre farm. (1:48:55) On January 3rd of 1950 he had his first daughter. (1:49:26) In 1952 he sold his 120 acre farm. (1:49:48) He then went to live with his wife’s sister and brother-in-law where he worked the farm for a short time before going to live with his brother. (1:50:00) He then bought a house on 6 Mile Road with some farm land. (1:50:35) �              He then received a job in the yard in a plaster mine in Grandville, Michigan. (1:51:20) He then received a job as an electrician for the Grandville mine. (1:52:70) He worked her for 2 years and never received one raise. (1:53:19) He was then made the high loader on the dock. (1:54:09) He had one child in 1952 and another in 1956. (1:54:19) He worked in a factory making stoves and then later refrigerators. (1:55:00) During the summer, the factory laid men off to go work on the farm. During this time he received a job for a farm hand. (1:58:05) He then started work for Pioneer Construction Company. (2:00:05) Soon after being employed at Pioneer construction he was made a truck driver. (2:03:56) He retired in April of 1984 after working at 2 construction companies. (2:06:04) He built his house in 1954. (2:08:15) On April 7th 1985 he had a heart attack. (2:08:44) He recovered from his heart attack by walking frequently. (2:09:48) He has been married to his wife for 64 years. (2:12:18) Final thoughts on service (2:13:00)   He doesn’t think he would have enlisted if he wasn’t drafted. But he thinks the experience was rewarding and he was thankful he wasn’t hurt. (2:13:19) He belongs to the VFW and the American Legion. He served as a chaplain for one of these organizations. (2:14:30) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LyonsG1311V Title A name given to the resource Lyons, Glenn (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lyons, Glenn Description An account of the resource Glenn Lyons was born April 4th 1920 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and drafted into the Army in November, 1941. After a year of training, he was shipped to North Africa, with the 2nd Armored Division. He spent most of his military service as a jeep driver in a light tank company in that unit. He missed the invasion of Sicily due to illness, but was with his unit from Normandy until the end of the war. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Blough, Ivan (Interviewer), Blough, Nick (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-12-15 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7de259065388008bc16d0bd0820fde58.mp4 227b5084a32d6e5dbb50011cb18292d1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e25b125e3cf10f3a0ef6da76ce89a983.pdf 267259e861e7c6e512169b5e63a589a2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Jerry Lyons Length of interview (0:45:04) (00:26) Background  Born December 20, 1922 (00:33)  Served in the 32nd division, 107th Medical Battalion, Company D during World War II (00:37)  Left service as a T-4 (01:00)  Served in Australia, New Guinea, and the Philippine Islands (01:19)  Was living in Grand Rapids, MI when drafted (01:25) (01:52) Training  Departed for Fort Custer in January, 1943. Remembers that it was very cold. (01:57)  Sent to Camp Wood, Texas. Trip took about three days. (02:26)  Boot camp mostly included marching in various conditions. Describes training with tank destroyers. (3:22)  Was transferred to a different camp after about four months. (05:27)  Traveled to New York City by train, saw the Statue of Liberty. Told that they were going to the South Pacific (06:15) (06:44) Arrival and Training in South Pacific  Traveled by convoy down the East Coast, through the Panama Canal, and then to Brisbane, Australia (06:44)  Jerry traveled on the U.S.S. Uruguay, which was a South American luxury liner at one time that was refitted for the troops. Trip took about a month. (07:32)  His ship nearly hit a liberty ship that had a broken rudder (08:11)  Had gun practice while on board (09:00)  Dropped anchor off the island of Bora Bora. Describes his experience swimming and their interactions with the natives. (09:26)  Describes arrival in Australia. (11:50)  Marched to Camp Asbury, about 30 miles out of Brisbane, joined 32nd division. (13:17)  Describes the friendships he acquired and the occasional trips into Brisbane. (14:07)  Describes training in Newcastle. (16:48)  Traveled to Hollandia, New Guinea, and then left for Leyte, Philippines on D+4 (17:14) (18:30) Service in South Pacific  Describes first experience fighting (18:30)  Describes experience driving the ambulance on Luzon, Philippines (19:48)  Sniper had hit their ambulance during an attack on their camp. Bullet hit about two �inches from where his head had been. (21:10)  Describes some close calls while traveling through mountains. Taken to hospital once he had been hit in the shoulder. Returned to the unit afterwards and received Purple Heart. (21:47)  Describes how the ambulance he worked in dealt with certain weather and terrain conditions. (23:56)  Received Bronze Medal for the retrieval of a wounded person. Also received Good Conduct Medal (25:06)  Kept in touch with family through letters. Family made a record in which they all sang and sent it to him. Listened to it often. (26:15)  Proposed to his wife while in the service because he didn’t want to lose her. Married her when he returned to the United States in February (27:50)  Describes recreational activities he enjoyed while in the Philippines. (30:00)  Describes rescuing a wounded man with three other men while under fire from a sniper. (31:37)  Briefly describes military circumcision. (35:13)  Recalls that some men were slightly unscrupulous, but most were honest and dependable. (35:50) (37:00) Post-Service  Returned to California by boat and then returned home in February 1946. (37:14)  Worked as a truck driver in the early 1950s. Worked for Frieden Calculators and later did sheet metal and furnace work. (38:57)  Military experience taught him that it is necessary to have an army to protect our country. Was glad that he could serve his country, but decided not to continue serving because he cared about his family. (39:46)  Thinks that the military discipline and getting away from home was good for him. (40:40)  Would hate to see family members go into the service, but emphasizes the power or prayer. (41:04)  In spite of all of the negative aspects of the United States, thinks that we live in the best country. Thinks that those who have served their country should be proud. (42:35)  Recalls attending a veterans’ parade and realizing that everyone was there to thank them. Realized that even though he might not have contributed much, as a group the military accomplished great things. (42:58) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LyonsJ Title A name given to the resource Lyons, Jerry R. (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lyons, Jerry R. Description An account of the resource Jerry Lyons, born December 20, 1922, was drafted while living in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1943. He served during World War II as a part of the 32nd Division, 107th Medical Battalion, Company D. His service took him across the South Pacific to Australia, New Guinea, and the Philippine Islands, where his unit supported the division in combat on Leyte and Luzon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lyons, Jacob (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-05-12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fa42a7f6d514d7553f4626098a0e95ad.mp4 9337b675c91321fe05f9bc3a51530a7f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5445c10dd4be8ae91ffeadc9a222bc11.pdf a9af2daf04a17e22e516e50faa4fecae PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: William Lysdahl Length of Interview (00:26:44) Background: (0:00:14)  Served in the Navy  Enlisted because it was his duty  Was 17, his father signed for him, thought it was a good idea Enlistment: (0:01:34)  A lot of physical training, did not consider it really hard  Boat training at Great Lakes  Gunner training at base in Virginia  New Orleans, got their ship  Went to Boston, set sail from Boston to the Panama Canal, then to the Pacific, where he stayed for the rest of the war  Not many casualties in his unit  Most frightening encounter was a typhoon (0:03:30)  Made necklaces out of seashells for their girlfriends  Story about Patrol duty and a bombardment of a Japanese island (0:05:05)  Received medals for participating in war-zones  Wrote letters back home, that was the only way to keep in touch  Thought the food was good o Had steak o Was a lot better than ground soldiers’ rations o Had plenty of supplies  Sank 8 submarines without gun-battles (0:07:30)  Slept down below o Had to cover up mattress with a fire-proof cover o Eventually hung up a hammock because it smelled so bad  For entertainment they boxed or watched movies o Every 3rd day on an island, they’d go ashore and play ball or other sports  One of the officers almost got washed overboard when he lost his footing (0:10:08)  Liked all the soldiers he worked with o Did not share the same opinions as the officers  Did not keep a journal, and was glad of it, because he didn’t want to relive deaths and battles After the War: (0:11:50)  Never considered re-enlisting  Was in the Pacific when he was discharged. Stopped in Hawaii, then to Los Angeles �             Wanted a glass of cold milk most; all they had was powdered milk on the ship and it was too warm Went to work, and took a few night classes when he returned Made a lot of friends, but did not keep in touch o Had friends in Kentucky, the Dakotas Joined the American Legion Was a salesman after the war Does not regret joining the war o Does not agree with certain decisions, but does not regret his time American Legion o Gives out scholarships o Sends boys to different organizations o Work with the community, have fish-frys His service time does not affect his life Remembers he was in St. Louis seeing a movie when Pearl Harbor was attacked o Remembers wanting to fight, but was too young at 16 Remembers anchoring on an island, could see the bottom of the ocean (0:16:48) o Looked like an aquarium, could see all the fish o Skipped from island to island o Rescued pilots and crewmen from downed planes Served on the USS Spangler (0:19:08) o Did not have big enough guns to take on a cruiser Chose the Navy because he thought he’d have a chance to see more of the world o Saw as much as he wanted to Discharged on December 1st, 1945, at 20 years old � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LysdahlW Title A name given to the resource Lysdahl, William (Interview transcript and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lysdahl, William Description An account of the resource William Lysdahl entered the Navy at age 17 during World War II. He served in the Pacific Ocean on ships conducting antisubmarine patrols. He was discharged on December 1st, 1945, at the end of the war. He was 20 years old. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Balczak, Melissa (Interviewer) Miller, Leigh (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-06-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cac4aef110206fe59c46d6dcb10c6ee3.mp4 68a1e8e1f95f4e892e6ef7d48e14cf4e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e081c8c3e4a46eec61fb585ca49717ad.pdf 4fb705ea42c1d95b77ed932c2dd0beb5 PDF Text Text Lyssy, Walter Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Walter Lyssy Length of Interview: (1:44:06) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Walter Lyssy of San Antonio, Texas and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born at home in McCook, Texas, a rather remote area. Interviewer: “What part of Texas is that in?” (00:25) Very southern Texas on the Mexican border near the Rio Grande Valley. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you grow up there or did you move around?” I grew up there and then after high school attended A&I University in Kingsville, Texas. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you were growing up what was your family doing for a living?” We were dryland farmers in the 50’s in Texas, which was the time of the drought. So it was pretty tough, we were very poor. Interviewer: “Alright, how were you able to afford to go to college?” �Lyssy, Walter Didn’t really– Couldn’t afford. I had enough money to pay my first semester’s tuition and live for a month or two. I tell everybody I’ve held every job in Kingsville, Texas. Interviewer: “How large was the school in those days?” About 4,000 students and they had ROTC and I joined ROTC and– But basically just had odd jobs running, filling stations and so forth and finally got me a good job at the Kingsville Naval Air Station driving fuel trucks and fueling jets at night. Had a 40 hour week job there and went to school full time. Interviewer: “So you didn’t do a lot of sleeping then.” My joke was I got off from midnight to eight o’clock, the next morning was free time you can do anything you want, like study or sleep. Interviewer: “Alright, now the ROTC program you were in was that an Army ROTC?” (1:58) Army ROTC and back then they were actually by branch and it was Signal Corps. Interviewer: “Okay, so what did the ROTC training actually consist of?” Well you had to take obviously military courses through four years, drill and ceremonies out in a parade field, see Sergeant Martin and clean your M1 rifle every week till he was satisfied, so you got really good at cleaning an M1, disassembling, assembling, and so forth and of course between your junior and senior year you go to a summer camp for six weeks for the intensive training and when you graduate you’re commissioned. Interviewer: “Alright, now was this a place that had a four year ROTC?” �Lyssy, Walter Yes, four years ROTC but it was small compared to like Texas A&M or someplace back then. I don’t remember precisely but on graduation night I think five of us were commissioned, very small. Interviewer: “Alright, and now did the military pay for any part of your education or was this just–” You got– At your junior and senior years I think we got $40 a month, paid for cleaning your uniform and haircuts so no they didn’t– It wasn’t for money. Interviewer: “Okay, now then how did you feel about the prospect of going in the Army, was that something you wanted to do?” Yes, it was a job back then things were tough. Interviewer: “Alright, so what year did you graduate from college then?” (3:42) 19– In May of ‘65 I graduated from Texas A&I. Interviewer: “Okay, interesting time to go into the Army at that point, how– Were you aware at all of what was happening in Vietnam with the Vietnamese?” Yes and back then people were in ROTC and they saw Vietnam coming and they figured out how to get out of ROTC and then the Army changed its policy and you had to sign up some paperwork that you were a private in the Army reserves and if you decided to, for some reason, just quit you end up being– Coming into the Army as private. So there was incentive but that didn’t affect me, I was hoping to get commissioned and go into the Army. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so now once you receive your commission, what do they do with you?” �Lyssy, Walter Well the first thing you do is go to officer’s basic training at Fort Gordon, Georgia and then you get your first assignment. My first assignment was Fort Knox, Kentucky and training center. Interviewer: “So then just to back up a little bit, what do they do in officer’s basic training?” Most of it is related to Signal Corps, the equipment and that sort of thing, plus you know the normal PT tests and training and so forth. By then you’re pretty well trained as far as drill and ceremonies and all that, that’s already done. Interviewer: “Okay and what kind of equipment was the Signal Corps using at that point?” Well actually the radios at that level were the PRC 25 which it had one vacuum tube in it which eats a lot of battery and that was changed to the PRC 77, or the transistors version, it did the same thing although you’ll talk to almost all of the Vietnam vets and they’ll all tell you about the AN PRC 25. (5:55) They were actually carrying a PRC 77, it looked exactly the same everybody thought it was a PRC 25, that’s what they called it. Interviewer: “Well they also talked about carrying around extra batteries, did the 77 still need those?” Oh yes and the batteries were big and heavy and were really an important thing to make sure that everybody had a fresh battery, but even before that when they were still PRC 25s they ate the batteries a lot faster because they had a vacuum tube which uses a lot more power so the Army changed that to a PRC 77. Interviewer: “Did you also do stuff, learn things that had to do with coding and anything like that, encryption?” �Lyssy, Walter Oh yes, yes and in my time the 2nd 506, which we’ll talk about, that was a big deal having a secure radio and codes. Interviewer: “Alright, so now you– And so how long was the training at Fort Gordon?” I don’t know, six or eight weeks. Interviewer: “Okay, so not a big thing then.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so then Fort Knox, Kentucky then is your next stop?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, what do you do there?” (6:55) It was– Fort Knox was a major training center back then for basic training, that sort of thing, but I was in what was called radio school or teaching radio operators, 0-5-B was the MOS, they became radio operators and many, many of them went to Vietnam. Looking back at it now I think it’s silly cause the majority of the time was teaching them international morse code and well if I had to do it all over again I would go back and take that training time and teach them how to be a company commander’s radio operator and do stuff like calling in airstrikes and– Cause that’s what the real job was almost none of them used international morse code and that was probably 2-300 hours of training. Interviewer: “So where would they use international morse code, that if you went to Europe or something for a big headquarters?” Basically most radio operators didn’t do it, now Special Forces did it a lot, and we’ll talk about that later, but most Army radio operators did not use international morse code but it was still in �Lyssy, Walter the training program and they had to pass 13 words a minute international morse code and it was taught to them in a very rudimentary way, was pure memorization, dit dah- A. Okay and then write dit dah- A, dit dah and then you had to write B dah dit dit dit. Interviewer: “Okay, now how long did you spend at Fort Knox doing that?” Two years. Interviewer: “Okay, and during that time I mean did you want to go to Vietnam or not go?” Oh I was fully expecting to go to Vietnam, my commitment was for two years I could’ve just left for Knox and I’d fulfilled my military obligation and I’d probably been put in the reserves and sent home. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay but you stayed in?” (9:00) But I stayed in. Interviewer: “Alright, why did you stay in?” I liked the Army and patriotic reasons and so forth and time to go do my thing. Interviewer: “Okay, so what thing did you go do next?” Well I got orders for Vietnam, except it didn’t say “Vietnam” it said “Thailand” I said “Where’s Thailand?” So the summer of ‘67 at the Travis Air Force Base and get on this contract airplane which is totally full of Air Force and there was I think four of us Army people on this airplane and we fly to Bangkok. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did they do with you once you get to Bangkok?” �Lyssy, Walter We got to the airport in Bangkok, everybody unloaded, all these little blue Air Force buses came and picked up all the Air Force guys, they left, we stood there looking at each other “Well what do we do?” So we finally figured it out. Interviewer: “Well did someone come for you or did you just stand around?” They told us to take a taxi and go to Chapya hotel in Bangkok which we did and that was a contract hotel for Army and we went in there and made contact and pretty soon started getting assignments. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you get assigned to?” Well my initial assignment was to go to Korat 501st Field Depot, which is a large depot operations, logistics, bringing in supplies into Thailand and they found out that I had secret clearance, which was unusual back then. (10:52) So the depot petroleum officer and I had to get together and spend the first month writing a secret plan on how to distribute petroleum to the air bases in Thailand which is– Lots of air bases in Thailand, yes so we did that and when that was finished then I was sent to Sattahip, Thailand which is on the coast south of Bangkok, where the U.S was building a large port facility and all the supplies were coming into Sattahip. So I joined, from there I was– I’m still a 1st lieutenant and I joined a 596 quartermaster company petroleum depot. There were only two petroleum companies in the Army and that’s one of them and I was the signal platoon leader, company’s supposed to be spread out 200 miles of pipeline with teletype and all this sort of thing. Well we weren’t deployed like that at all, we were all in one spot, you really didn’t have a lot of signal to do so next thing I knew I was also the company motor officer running the motor pool, which is a big motor pool. Big 5,000 gallon petroleum tankers, deuce and a halves, rough terrain forklifts for moving large drums around, and just a lot of equipment. Interviewer: “Okay, was that all staying on the base or was that going back and forth along the pipelines?” �Lyssy, Walter Well when I first got there what the mission– Well our mission was to handle all petroleum products for Thailand but our real mission was bringing in JP-4 for the Air Force and they would come in in tankers and when they first got there you used submarine cables to attach to the tankers to pump the JP-4 off the tankers and into pipelines and Utapao air base and then just at Christmas time we got our petroleum pier built which is a new modern pier and port pipelines you can actually drive a jeep out on it and had the big anchor points for tankers to come in and get tied up and we’d pump off of that but this is– What’s interesting is that a lot of air power came out of Thailand for the Vietnam war. Places like Udorn, Subang, Takhli, Nakhon Phanom, Korat, and all these basically fighter bombers scattered out throughout Thailand and they burned a lot of fuel but in southern Thailand next to us, next to the port, was U-Tapao Air Base and UTapao had B-52s and KC-135 tankers, and these tankers would take off and be airborne and there was really basically no fuel at all these air bases in Thailand. They only had minimal amounts for testing engines and emergencies, so that F-105 took off out of Korat loaded with bombs and so forth, he took off and immediately went to the tanker which came out of U-Tapao, got a load of fuel, he went north, did his mission, came back, hit the tanker, got fuel and landed and the whole war went like that. (14:33) So we were pumping U-Tapao and we averaged 1.2 million gallons a day pumping JP-4 to U-Tapao that was our main mission and we– When we first got there– Eventually we had electric pumps and we had a very large tank farm, one tank it was 100,000 barrels, huge you know other tanks and we handled, you know other products too, gasoline and diesel and that sort of thing but it’s primarily JP-4 and ships would come in, we’d offload them, they’d take off go back to the Persian gulf and get that load of fuel, another ship would come in. They’d hold about ten million gallons each and that was a week’s supply and we’d pump that all to U-Tapao. So we just basically I had the signal platoon, the motor platoon, and then I became the company commander, totally out of my field but that’s what it is. Interviewer: “And were you still a 1st lieutenant at that point?” No, just got promoted to captain and became the company commander. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Very good, yeah now what’s daily life like out on– You’re on the big base right?” No. Interviewer: “Oh somewhere–” The Army had a small camp at that point called Camp Vayama, it basically didn’t even have a fence around it, water buffalos just wandered right through our area. Interviewer: “Okay so they build you a fort facility but not really a base.” Yeah, eventually there was a new Army post, Camp Samae San but at this point it hadn’t been built yet. So ours we just had wooden hooches, pull a rope it lifts up a piece of tin for your window but compared to Vietnam it was super good. We had showers, a little building called the officers club where you could eat, it was okay. Interviewer: “Do you employ local people to work for you?” (16:35) Yes, every hooch has a house girl that shined shoes and took your fatigues down to the river to beat them with rocks and cleaned them and brought them back and, so yeah it was– Life there was okay. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have any security concerns?” Yes, particularly at the air base in fact there was, if you read back in history, they actually got onto U-Tapao and damaged some B-52s. Interviewer: “Okay, now were these Thai communists or were they Vietnamese infiltrators or do you not know?” �Lyssy, Walter I don’t know a lot about that. Interviewer: “Okay, but where you were there wasn’t any particular worry.” No, we were probably 30 minutes away at our Army camp, eventually the new camp was over closer to U-Tapao but our little camp was kind of remote and all by itself. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so how long did you spend there?” I stayed there about– I have to recall, eight or nine months and then I went to– Well what happened the Army petroleum officer out of the Pentagon came, some Air Force colonel, and he found out that he had a signal commanding one of his petroleum companies and he was very upset about that and so pretty soon there was another captain, took over and I went to Korat and worked in logistics and maintenance, finished my tour. Interviewer: “Okay, so when did that tour finish?” (18:16) In July of ‘68. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’d been in Thailand at the time of the Tet Offensive then?” Yes. Interviewer: “Alright, did that have any reverberations where you were?” Not really, no. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so July ‘68 now you go back to the states and you– Had you decided by this time to really make a career of the Army?” Yeah, I was pretty well staying in. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Okay, alright so what’s your next assignment now?” I got orders to go to Fort Bragg to the special warfare school which is the Special Forces school. Interviewer: “Okay, so did you take Special Forces training or were you gonna work at the school?” No, I was just assigned to go there and I got there and the next thing I know I’m in the Communications Committee of the Special Forces school, back then called Special Forces training group. We have Special Forces groups there’s 1st group, 2nd group, 5th group in Vietnam so forth, and then there’s a training group at Fort Bragg that teaches the officer training and the various skills in Special Forces, weapons, engineer, signal, operations, those sorts of things and we were doing the communications portion of that. Interviewer: “Alright, so what does that actually consist of?” (19:37) Soldier comes, there are exceptions to this but, basically a soldier comes in the Army goes to basic training, then he goes to Airborne school, and then he goes to Special Forces basic training and then after that then he goes to his MOS training, then he’d come to us now and he’s already been to Airborne school, he’s had some jumps already and then he becomes a Special Forces radio operator. Now he’s learning international morse code but he’s gonna use that cause when you go to a day camp in Vietnam you’re sitting there using international morse code and he’s– And so that was really important training for them there and an important thing is at the point I got there this was already going on but, you know how do you learn international morse code, the dits and the dahs and so forth. Well there was a fellow out in California, his name was Judson Cortish, he was not a communicator or anything else but he was– Had a PhD in how the brain works. So his way of explaining this is he says “You know if I said do you know music?” “No, I don’t even know how to read music.” “But if I played Happy Birthday on the piano and hit all these keys and so forth and made a mistake you would know it wouldn’t you?” I go “Yeah.” He says you listen to a song on the radio and you like the song by the second time without even �Lyssy, Walter thinking about it, you know the words, how’d that happen?” So he came up with this mnemonic method of teaching international morse code and you basically put on a headset and there’s a male voice talking to you and he says “Alone” and you write down A and he says “Brake cylinder” and you write down B, says “Daredevil” you write down D and what it is like the world “Alone” it’s a short syllable and a long syllable, dit dah. Then you hear “Brake cylinder” which is dah dit dit dit, but you don’t pay any attention to the color, you just listen, write them down, you know. Very few people in the world know this story by the way, okay so you listen to this male voice telling you this and you’re writing it down you have an attenuation knob and while he’s saying the words there’s a little bit of code synchronized with this and as you’re bringing the voice down you bring the code up. Okay and you get to a certain point and you start out at 13, 15 words a minute this is not boring I mean just– You’re writing and then you changed the male voice to the chipmunks, little chirpy voice [chipmunk noises] and the code is there and then pretty soon you bring the chipmunks down, you bring the code up and pretty soon the chipmunks go away and you’re copying code and I actually did this at lunch hours and I don’t know two, three weeks I learned code and you know most people struggle for many, many hours trying to learn this but it all ended up that he had his way of doing things and some Army people had their way of doing things and they were not the same so they told him to take his toys and go home and the world lost that. (23:10) So guess what? Now our teaching today’s back to the old way of doing things, yeah but it’s just an interesting story. We had one soldier, he was a prize soldier, he learned at 15 words a minute solid in 12 hours of training, now most people would take probably like 7,500 hours this guy just– It worked for him–Boom! He went through the tapes, learned it said “He’s ready.” 12 hours of training that guy he could code, very unusual but at the school not only do they come in, they learn the code and then they learn equipment basically they learn a lot of basic how to build antennas, how antennas work, which antenna to use because they’re going to be using an AN/GRC 109 radio transmitter and a receiver with a hand crank generator. There’s no microphone there, this is all to build an antenna and tap out your code. In the last– I got there with my boss the Colonel Johnson he had just finished commanding CCM in Vietnam which is back then very classified, putting the guys in North Vietnam and all the recon teams and so forth. So I get there and he’s there and he says “The last two weeks of the course is a field training exercise in the mountains of North Carolina called Windmill Falls, Pisgah National Forest and Colonel Johnson said “Why are we trucking these �Lyssy, Walter soldiers up there? These are Special Force soldiers, you go up there and establish your drop zone.” “Yes sir.” Sergeant [unintelligible] He knows that area, knows people, we go up there and make relations with a farmer John Dooley, not Tom Dooley but John Dooley he has a farm and it’s small, it’s in the mountains how do you find a drop zone hid in the mountains but the train would drop down 600 feet, go across the farm and then go back up 600 feet and you’re flying at 1,200 feet to drop you know and it’s a nice farm, kind of flat but it had barbed wire fences criss crossing it with steel posts, creek on two sides, an old apple orchard but– So we established that drop zone and Air Force could never find it, cause you’re flying low it’s just mountains you know but I knew how to find it so I could direct them and we’d find the drop zone and then we started jumping. You’d only get four guys out the door though that’s how quick it was, so did that for a couple years using that drop zone and, I don’t know, imagine nowadays what it would take to do something like that. Well back then you’d just go out there and do it, that’s the way it was. Interviewer: “And then did people have problems with the barbed wire fences or things like that?” (26:37) Nope, these guys were– Had enough training by now, we had MC-1 maneuverable parachutes, kind of maneuverable, had like a 42 square feet hole in the back and you could slip your risers and they were well briefed and they knew this was a challenge for them. First time they’re not on a great big drop zone, you know at Fort Bragg or something like that, nobody ever got hurt, we all got them in, jumped in and then from there they would go out to the field and they had a four man team, build their own shelters out of ponchos, they had to get on the ground with that hand cranked generator, build antennas and translate a message encoded back to their buddies at Fort Bragg, on an a frequency at a time, and then on a different frequency at another time, they had to receive a message and decode it and if they were successful in this it would give them some grid coordinates and a password for them to get food because they only had three meals, no C rations. So their next meal was in their copper slab and there’s a lot of funny stories there but they did it and they had to learn to communicate from high ground, low ground, down in Linville Gorge, different situations, different antennas. It was good training, they learned a lot. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Okay, I’d expect a group like this would have pretty high morale, probably motivated guys?” Oh yes, they’re all volunteers. I guess I was the captain in charge but I had a group of NCOs that were all Special Forces, trained, experienced, I learned more from them from any school would ever teach me. So I got a lot of training while I was with that unit, all kinds of stuff. Interviewer: “Alright so you’re there now, you know late 60s, 1970-71?” Yes this was still– This is ‘68-70. Interviewer: “Okay, but that’s a period when the anti-war movement at home was heating up quite a bit. Does that register with you or where you are or were you not really worrying about it very much?” It registered with me but it didn’t really affect me that much at that point, you know we had a war going on and we had a lot of good soldiers getting hurt and killed. Interviewer: “And the community around Fort Bragg would’ve been– Was that fairly pro military?” (29:23) That’s no– Yeah, that’s Army community. Interviewer: “Right, okay so now you’ve got this for two years and so– Now did you want to go back to– You want to go to Vietnam because you hadn’t gotten there?” Oh I fully expected to go to Vietnam, and I got the orders. Interviewer: “Alright, so when do you go to Vietnam?” �Lyssy, Walter July of ‘70, course individual replacements, get on airplane, go to Vietnam, get off the air plane and go to this place, Bien Hoa I guess it was and there were three signal captains on this air plane and we go there and there was another signal captain that was there already and a big bulletin board. You go look at the board when your name comes up it tells you what your assignment’s going to be. Well that captain was there already he got an assignment 101st Airborne Division, woah poor guy. So we go back a few hours later, we go back and there’s all of our names, oh we’re all going to the 101st. Interviewer: “Alright, so why is it poor boy if he’s going to 101st?” Well 101st we knew then was the only division left in Vietnam that was fully engaged in fighting war, everybody else, the 4th Division was being taken down and you know people were going home. Nixon’s bringing the troops home, except for the 101st was still up in I Corps and fully engaged. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so how do you get from Bien Hoa up to I Corps?” (30:58) Well at night they wake you up in the middle of the night and grab your duffle bag and you get on the C-130 and we took off and we started flying north for a long time I said “My God we gotta be in China by now.” Well they flew us all the way to Dong Ha and we stopped there and some people go off and then it flew back to Phu Bai and got off the air plane and there we were at the Camp Eagle. Interviewer: “And that’s the headquarters for 101st?” Headquarters for 101st, next thing they do is transport you north to Camp Evans and you’re gonna go to screaming eagle replacement training. Everybody had to go to service training before you can join a unit out in the field, which when I look back now it was important. Interviewer: “What did that training consist of?” �Lyssy, Walter Firing weapons, even like the 90 millimeters recoilless, the M-60 machine guns, your basic M16s, getting refamiliarized with all these weapons, a lot of air mobile as we knew it back then, you actually jump on helicopters and fly out and do air assaults just to learn how that’s gonna work, get familiar with artillery, bringing in artillery, cobras, rockets, all the things that are gonna be happening to you once you go out to the field. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long does that last?” A week, and at that point Ripcord was going on this is– I think I got out of service training on the 21st or 22nd, you can see– You could actually when the chinook crashed at Ripcord we’re sitting in the stands looking at this column of smoke up there. In the evening you’re watching chinooks haul in damaged helicopters, a lot of activity going on. Interviewer: “Okay chinook crash is July 18th and then–” That would make sense, 18th, 19th, 20, 21, yes. Interviewer: “And then the 23rd is when they actually pull off the base entirely.” (33:34) Yes, 23rd is when they pull of the base, on the 23rd I was finished training and I had to go to Camp Eagle to see the division signal officer who does all the assigning of signal officers and so we went there and it was Colonel Smart was his name was his name and he says “You’re going to the 2nd 506th Infantry.” Then he told me about Colonel Lucas being killed that day and all the casualties and Ripcord and how they pulled off and so that was the 23rd, next morning I joined a unit. Interviewer: “Alright, so let’s– So basically what happens, you go out to join the unit?” You go to Camp Evans and you go to this unit and they had just pulled off Ripcord the day before and things are not normal. You start hearing all these statistics and stories and talking to people, they’re all talking to each other and first thing that happened was a memorial service, �Lyssy, Walter lined up the battalion, had a little stage, Chaplain Fox, the battalion chaplain gets up, the rifles stacked, boots, half the battalion crying they were just an emotional wreck, I mean it was bad. Interviewer: “Who was in charge of the battalion at that point?” John C. Bard was our new battalion commander. Interviewer: “Okay so he’d already been installed, or just arrived?” Just arrived, back– Major, I’m gonna say, King was the XO of the battalion, he had just come back from R&R in Hawaii, when I got there I reported in to him Colonel Bard was just, I don’t know if he was there yet but he was coming aboard that day. So I go to report to the XO, the battalion XO, he looked at me and he looked at my signal flags and he jumped up and ran out the room. I look around “Well what’s this about?” Because prior to that John Darling was the signal officer, he was a West Pointer and he got killed, Ripcord, and Captain Hopke was sent by division temporarily to fill that slot. (36:18) Well Hopke was short, he was going home so I’m there to replace him but you can imagine this major what his dying commanders did, what his operations officers did, all these people are injured or scattered to the four winds and of course personal accountability is really an important thing and he looked at me and he says “Oh my god, what did I miss? Where’s my signal officer?” So he ran out and he came back saying “Okay, Hopke’s going home. Okay, good on you guys.” Yeah so he got that done, it was crazy there was a little officers club, you go in there and you hear all of these stories and names and experiences and “Good lord what kind of unit did I join here?” The last 23 days there’s something like 72 guys killed and 250 injured and I’m gonna be in this unit for a year? Course it wasn’t like that after that it– Interviewer: “Alright so what was Colonel Bard like?” Colonel Bard was a Rhodes Scholar, Westpoint graduate, Rhode Scholar, brilliant man and I wanna say a few things but I want everybody to know that I admired him, he’s a super guy just a brilliant guy but he had very little common sense. Okay and you’ve seen it, you’ve seen like �Lyssy, Walter brilliant people who had a hard time tying their tire but he was– And don’t get me wrong he was a good commander and he really cared for his troops and that sort of thing but I thought he was in the wrong place, he was put there to punch his ticket, get his ticket punched and he didn’t last I think I’d have to go back and review the records but he was there long enough to get to know who we are and move up to be a divisions operation officer, a big job and I’m sure he’s very good at it and brilliant at it but he wasn’t a dig in the dirt infantry guy, you know type of guy. Interviewer: “So what actually now happens with the battalion once you join it, do they rebuild for a while or?” Well you have to understand now about half the battalion is new, truckloads of soldiers are coming in and we got a new battalion commander, a new operations officer, super guy Frank Willoughby is now the S3 and he is– Go back and start the Battle of Long Bay which is way up north, he was the A company commander, Special Forces guy at that camp, at that battle where he got attacked with tanks. Interviewer: “Yeah, they were overrun at that point.” (39:22) Overrun, had the tanks sitting up on the top of his operation center, Marines wouldn’t come and get them, Army had to come in there and dig them out of that, it was a terrible battle. Yeah but he was my boss, he was the S3, so you have all these new people and we’ve got– Your orders now are really only stand down which is– Try to take some of their troops to the beach to give them a little break, time to clean your weapons, clean your radios, make sure everything is working right, new batteries. Refurbish the battalion but one thing you can’t do is let this battalion sit in this emotional state now, sit in arrear. So I don’t remember– It was just days later that we air assaulted out at Katherine, Firebase Katherine, so here we are again out in the jungle’s twisted way. Interviewer: “Alright, now were you normally going to be with battalion headquarters wherever that was or would you be in the field with the battalion?” �Lyssy, Walter I was– I spent almost all my time in the field with the battalion at the battalion headquarters at the firebases. Even– I mean to the extent of even when they went one back on– Back to base camp for a week I actually stayed with– At the firebase to keep things– One thing I could always tell was this little story, when I first got there the idea was to have electricity done by little gasoline generators 1.5 and 3 KW generators and those generators were never designed to run 24/7. They’re little, you know pull a rope and crank them up and, you know but that’s what supposedly what’s going to power our radios and all that sort of thing in the top. So it wasn’t– Can’t tell you exactly how we did this but I can up with a 45 KW diesel generator. We stayed there about a month then we moved to Rakkasan and I brought that generator into Rakkasan under a chinook and placed it, sand bagged it in, got droves of diesel fuel and we ran– I provided– I was providing electricity for the firebase, I had fluorescent lights at the TOC in Rakkasan and then you make sure you put your lights in important places like with your artillery, in your operations center and so forth cause they can do a much better job if they have lights and so forth. So yeah besides commo I did lights. Interviewer: “Alright, now what was the battalion doing at that point, I mean they’re on these firebases just general patrolling?” (42:37) Yes, the typical thing you established a firebase, put the battalion headquarters on the firebase, bring in the 105 and 155 artillery plus the various other sundry things that happen, engineers and that sort of thing on the firebase, primarily working on the bunker line and I had to learn with my fellow officers– And don’t get me wrong now when you join an infantry battalion, particularly there in Vietnam, and you’re the commo officer, yeah you’re the commo officer but you’re infantry too. You’re gonna be right in the middle of it all, filling sandbags, getting your crew, and securing things and after the lessons of Ripcord perimeter defense is pretty important and you have to learn how to do that. You don’t just go out there and throw some concertina wire, you know it’s– Rollie Rollison was Delta Company commander in Ripcord and right after that he became the S4 but I considered him as one of the experts on knowing how to build that perimeter defense, taking three strands of concertina and nailing it down to the ground about yay high and then putting more concertina on that and nailing it down and down so it’s a solid barrier, plus the claymore mine and the fougas and the fighting positions, you make it really– �Lyssy, Walter Because we’re dealing with sappers, as the Ripcord story goes sappers were a big part of that too. So you have to really learn to do perimeter defense and I was a big part of that. Of course I did all sorts of things at the time I was the TOC officer at night, walked the bunker line inspecting fighting positions, doing all those infantry things too besides being commo, you know you just don’t sit there going “Oh no I’m the commo officer.” That doesn’t work, so you learned to do all that sort of thing. Interviewer: “Alright, now how long did you stay in that job?” Well I started in July and until the next spring, I believe till about the 1st of March, something like that. Interviewer: “And then what did you move onto from there?” I became a signal officer for 1st Brigade, 1st Brigade signal officer. Interviewer: “Okay, and where were they based?” (45:15) Camp Eagle, 1st Brigade Camp Eagle, 3rd Brigade is Camp Evans, 2nd Brigade was off wandering some place. Interviewer: “Alright, now what do those duties consist of now?” Where at? Interviewer: “At the brigade.” The brigade? Interviewer: “Yeah.” �Lyssy, Walter Well you’re overwatching the various battalions and what they’re doing, and of course distributing all the codes for secure radios and what we called back then the S.O.I, signal operations instructions, making sure all that gets done, talking to the bridge commander, future operations which, well he’d call me in and tell me what we’re going to be doing six– A month, six weeks from now we had big operations that went out back to the A Sau and so forth that he had me pick where he should put his brigade headquarters out there so he can talk back to Camp Eagle and cover their end and he was going to– Which took a lot of work because you’re doing basic map reading and profiling mountains and we’re predicting where the radios are gonna work and not work then actually jumping on the helicopter and flying out there and sitting down on the ground and testing it, you just sort of did that. Interviewer: “Now were you still there when the Lam Son 719 operation took place?” Oh yes, one of my additional duties while I was with the– Well after we first got to Katherine, Colonel Bard said “Get on a command control ship and run over to this sister firebase and you’re gonna learn how to be a beacon drop officer.” “What’s a beacon drop?” So I go over there and the commo officer there was a beacon, and he taught me to do beacon drops. (47:22) Interviewer: “So explain what a beacon drop is.” It’s a way to drop bombs in your area, your AO, when the weather is bad and there’s clouds and the normal sets of air can’t come in and bomb for you. The Navy Marines flew A-6s out of the main and that air plane would carry 22 500 pound bombs and then I would be at the firebase and the beacon drop officer has a PRC 41 UHF radio, a weird looking thing with a big fat antenna, to talk to them directly and a transponder. A transponder simply works with radars just like the air liner flights today they have a transponder in the airplane where they beat the signal and it shows up on radar. Well this is the opposite, I’ve got the transponder with me and it’s A-6 you know there two people in that airplane, the pilot and there’s the electronics officer with radar screens and they’re very sophisticated electronics, and it’s off set bombing from my transponder and I would feed them data, direction to the target and degrees, minutes, distance, and feet– Let’s see if I remember all this, elevation, differentials, and his flight path that I wanted him to fly on and �Lyssy, Walter he would gather all this information and go out about 15 miles and then turn– And you also had to authenticate the transponder to make sure you’re looking at the correct transponder but I would switch codes, you could switch codes from alpha through foxtrot I believe it was, and it’d come back at you and you’d do that a couple times “Okay, got you.” They’d go out 15 miles and start heading in and you’d see them on radar sweeping your transponder, it’s beeping, you’re talking, and then they had 22 bombs and you could vary things like you could drop all the bombs on one spot at one time or you could have a set length of 3-400 yards. You could have first bomb on target, center bomb on target, last bomb on target, you can vary all these sort of things and he would drop bombs and it’s the way you get a lot of bombs through bad weather and I got because– now the secret of this thing is that your batteries are charged for your transponder and your radio. Either one of those failed and mission’s gone, well I had my 45 KW generator and I knew how to charge batteries. So I was always ready and I got a reputation of being a reliable beacon drop officer because they would, you know– It’d go someplace else and if it failed they’d divert them to me, so I was just dropping bombs all over the place. Interviewer: “Alright, now this came in response to my asking about Lam Son 719–” (50:35) 719, okay 1st of the 506 was up north already, 2nd 506 where I was at was still, I think we were at Firebase Jack at that point but all of a sudden word came down for Captain Lyssy to get your beacon drop equipment together, select one soldier to help you carry equipment. Helicopter coming you’re gonna go north to the 1st of 506 because they don't have a beacon drop officer and they’re completely surrounded and they’re getting bordered heavy and they need bombs. So it’s Freddy Pitts a black soldier from Mississippi, good soldier “Ready? Pack your ruck, let’s go.” Sure enough first they flew us to Rakkasan, next morning we got a huey and we went into the battalion headquarters up on a ridge by the rock pile and sure enough we were surrounded. You could actually hear the enemy talking at night, claymores going off all night and we’re digging our hole and get there. So I was there to put in beacon drops and Freddy Pitts told me if I could ever get him back to Camp Evans, he’s stay the rest of his life and never complain, get him out of there and it was pretty bad I remember bringing in an eight inch artillery just over our shoulder, same ridge, there’s no enemy on the next one. Just pounded that thing with eight inch �Lyssy, Walter artillery and sent a squad or two down there and boom! They got hit with homemade claymores and so forth, vivid memory of the medevac hoisting up and injured soldier with border rounds flying, dropping through his blades. He took off and turned hard and the injured soldier hanging on it into a jungle penetrator about 45 degrees, then you don’t know I don’t know what happened to the guy you know, and a couple guys got killed that day bringing it back. It was a bad place. Interviewer: “Okay, now was this sort of– Was this battalion in a position where it was kind of supporting the operation into Laos at that point?” Yes, Americans were up north fighting the enemy while U.S helicopters and the south Vietnamese Army were heading into Laos. We finished that mission and funny, you know things were crazy we caught a huey back to Dong Ha [unintelligible] lot of traffic and flagged down my trader truck, Army, the cab was full of junk I climbed in there Freddy sat on the fifth wheel and we went back to the front gate of Camp Evans and came back to Camp Evans and I remember we had captured some homemade claymore, big I mean explosives just full of all kinds of nails and stuff. I brought that back just to show and tell cause sure enough the 2nd 506 went up there later, it was a pretty bad place to be, yeah. (54:10) Interviewer: “Alright now during the course of the year you had in Vietnam did you get an R&R?” Yes. Interviewer: “Where’d you go?” That was in April of– After I’d gone to 1st Brigade, it was towards the end of my tour and went to Hawaii, meet the wife and she’ll tell you I was the last guy on the last bus, she had just about given up. I finally wandered off and that was I guess pretty bad emotional situation back then, seeing everything I’d seen a so forth. We actually got to Honolulu, took a flight, went to Kauai to Hanalei Bay on the north shore and woke up the next morning and it was raining and there was �Lyssy, Walter jungle everywhere, turned on the T.V and there was John Wayne with a machine gun so hold on, I’m supposed to be on R&R. No, it was good, we had a good time in Hawaii. Interviewer: “Alright, are there other things about that Vietnam tour that kind of stand out in your memory?” Well of course you see and do a lot, all kinds of situations where you come close to being killed and also that was not from enemies but just being there, when you have that many soldiers, that many weapons, you know and RPG firing across the windshield of a loach. We had to distribute what we called the funny papers because everyone was required, specifically right after Ripcord, to have a secure radio and there are codes that they have to punch into this– Well we call it the gun the KYK 20-A and you punch it into the KY-38 that provides the encryption for a secure radio but you could only give out seven days and each unit including recon team had to have a secure radio. So you have to visit every unit every week to give them these codes and usually, typically you take a smoke grenade which comes in a cardboard canister, you open it, you take the smoke out, you put the funny papers in, tape them up and tape them to the smoke so when you’re in the helicopter and you see the guy on the ground you pop the smoke and you try to hit him with it because if you lose it, you got a big problem. (57:05) Now the division’s gonna have to change, so you don’t lose these funny papers. There’s some stories of myself and another fellow commo officer hanging in a tree get down and skid, get down in that tree to get it back, yeah so distributing those, all that, it took a lot and then helicopter guys come up and you show them all the locations, you can’t just go pop smoke at every friendly location cause you just located all the friendlies. So you do a whole bunch of false ones too you just throw smoke out everywhere. Yeah, so yeah getting that done a lot of helicopter time, a lot of helicopter time just constantly flying in your AO and so forth and the pilots show up and they get their briefing and when you show them where the 51 cals are the enemy the enemy has they don’t like to go there. For good reasons, but yeah you spend a lot of time doing that, no one ever– Well the division didn’t keep battalions in those mountains in the winter time cause you get the winter months, but boy this year we’re gonna keep one battalion out at Rakkasan, and of course that was us and the 1st of October is started raining and it rained for all of October and all of November and in the middle of that you look back at your weather history, there was a typhoon, a big typhoon that �Lyssy, Walter came through at the same time and the reports are it rained 104 inches on us and we ate C’s almost the whole time and we didn’t get out of there till the end of December. December was all fogged in too and basically we had to walk out to get out of there and brigade commander– At that point we had a new brigade commander and he was upset with soldiers not having dry socks. That’s always been a thing in the Army, always keep a pair of dry socks and started to have foot problems and you tell your sergeant major to go out there and teach those soldiers how to have a pair of dry socks and sergeant major comes back and he says “There may not be any dry socks.” When it rains constantly, day after day, week after week, and then he says “Okay, Bard you go out there and show them.” Pretty soon he sent his own sergeant major and his own sergeant major came back and told him “There’s no way, nothing’s going to be dry, everything is wet.” And it sure enough was, we came out of there at the end of December and I remember particularly Charlie Company having to carry him off a helicopter to the aid station her feet were hamburger. Yeah, took ten days before they could walk again without us, gosh there’s so many things that stick out in your mind about that, I guess first casualties, that sort of thing. Interviewer: “How much contact did you have with the South Vietnamese military?” (1:00:10) Not a lot, we pretty well operated independently and they were wary in this sort of thing but specifically us the battalion headquarters, I don’t know what even Vietnamese people because there’s no population in these mountains, it’s us and North Vietnamese. Interviewer: “When you were on the big bases were there South Vietnamese there?” They’d go on big bases, that’s how– Well at Camp Eagle when I was brigade signal officer there was some Vietnamese there but not many. Now Camp Evans there was no, what you call, house boys or house girls or any of this, we didn’t have any of that– Interviewer: “And there’s no villages outside the base or anything like that?” �Lyssy, Walter There were and I guess they ran a laundry some place, amongst us soldiers even in our base areas nuh-uh didn’t have them. Interviewer: “Okay, this tape is about up so we’re gonna pause right here, rewind and reload. Alright we were kind of tying up some pieces of your Vietnam tour, one question I’ve got is about the morale of the troops in the field when you’re there. What was that like because you joined them after the battalion had been decimated and rebuilt and so forth, what impression did you have of the soldiers?” Well, you know it was a mixed bag, we still had really good soldiers with good attitudes and so forth doing a good job but then there was always the element of commanders having a hard time with who’s gonna be in the field and who’s gonna have to get not to be in the field. That was a really big deal if you could get back to the base camp but stay back there so they play that game and your problem with of course marijuana was back in the base camps was a big deal but in the field, I won’t– I’m not gonna sit here and tell you there was none but the troops pretty well policed themselves out in the field because they knew they were in a situation where, you know if you screwed this up you’re gonna have a sapper come in there and get you killed. (1:02:37) So they wanted those fellow soldiers to be on their toes and so forth. So it kind of took care of itself out in the field but problems back in the base camp. I spent very little time in the base camp, I pretty much stayed out in the field, I take a small crew with me but of course you had to run the switchboards, run the battalion and brigade radio nets with my radio operator sitting there to talk and keep the battalion logs going and that sort of thing. So that was a big job of keeping that going and I had some really good signal guys radio operators that did that sort of thing. Interviewer: “And were you aware of problems in the base camps with racial issues or harder drugs or things like that?” Yes, there were, I remember one soldier going berserk and shooting their area up and so forth and you know those sort of things but I’d just hear about them because I was out in the field. Interviewer: “Yeah, it’s not really what you were seeing out there.” �Lyssy, Walter I’ll tell you another little story, was right after Ripcord we were at Firebase Katherine and we were only there for– I don’t remember precisely, maybe less than a week when– And I was out trying to get a light bulb in the artillery battery area for them to help them out and of course we didn’t really have any supplies trying to use copper wire to put some lights, give them a light bulb and I do it myself. We’re digging trying to bury this cable and a huey helicopter which was working for a battalion in an adjacent area DARS got disoriented at night, saw a light on our firebase and decided it was the enemy with flashlights. So he came through machine guns blazing and strafed our firebase and I got caught right– That was my first time getting shot at, I didn’t know what was going on I had all these little red firecrackers bouncing all over the place all around me and so forth till about a second later I figured out this is not good and I rolled over and got inside a bunker but that day we had received our quad 50 which was each firebase were so far north that you had a quad 50 for 50 caliber machine guns for air defense. If something does come over to DMZ it’s getting some fire power and that nervous quad 50 team just test fired their quad 50 against the side of the mountain and the disoriented helicopter went around for another pass was coming in. (1:05:45) The quad 50 guys were on the quad 50 ready to shoot this enemy helicopter when a radio operator who had some experience he was monitoring brigade net and he put two and two together, he heard what was going on outside he’s real sharp and he gets on the radio and calls him off, or else we would’ve had a helicopter shot down that night. They did hit one soldier who had just survived Ripcord, he was in a fighting position, he had seven days to go before he goes home and he took an M-60 round in his groin and up through the intestines and Dr.Harris, Jim Harris was out battalion doctor. So run down there, I’m helping with the stretcher, we pulled him up through the barbed wire and get him up by the battalion headquarters for medevac coming in. Nothing a doctor could do for a guy with that type of injury but the medevac was there, it’s dark now, it’s night and we get him in the medevac and as they’re taking off they’re barely 10 or 12 feet in the air when they start– Hovered into the clouds, cause clouds come down at night and they just did that, of course they just fly down the mountain and go away and they got him in and Dr.Harris a few years ago from now found out who that soldier was and that he lived, and of course in these times a guy gets injured he’s gone that’s the end of story, you don’t know. Well apparently that soldier lived and I’ll always remember that soldier laying on the stretcher and he grabbed his buddy by the shirt, pulled him �Lyssy, Walter down and said “You find out who’s flying that helicopter.” I don’t know whatever happened to that but he was a little hecked that he survived Ripcord, was getting ready to go home, here comes a helicopter, shoots him. There’s lots of those stories, terrible. Interviewer: “Okay so now you kind of get to the end of the Vietnam tour and so when do you leave Vietnam?” July of ‘71. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and where do you go next?” I go to the signal officer advanced course in Fort Thomas, New Jersey and almost everybody in that course– And now there’s 50 of us– Boom! So we’re gonna have I think it’s nine months, ten months of advanced course, signal advance course. Interviewer: “How do they fill that nine or ten months?” (1:08:30) Do what? Interviewer: “What do they do?” Oh well all the branches of the Army have those advanced courses, that’s how you go from captain to major and gosh you get classes on all kinds of stuff, you know from basic electronics through all the signal equipments and organizations, you know all that sort of thing it’s just a normal thing but by then it’s not getting to be– Going into ‘72 and after nine months of training the Army is having a reduction in force and half that class got rifted. After nine months of class they’re gone. Interviewer: “Now did you have some seniority on them because of when you got your commission?” �Lyssy, Walter Yes, I was late getting into the advanced course because of my assignments, the way they went, so I was actually the class leader as a senior guy in that class. So yes, when you take all these guys that just got back from Vietnam and put them in a class interesting things happen. They’re not the best behaved students around, most of them funny things happen you know. So it was a lot of fun and then following that I became an instructor for a few months and then I got selected and attended the course that was basically taught by AT&T but at Fort Monmouth to become a communication systems engineer where you study everything from telephone switches to microwave systems, triple scanner systems, cable systems, that sort of thing for, you know the opposite of the green box with the tactical equipment now you’re talking about the commercial equipment. Interviewer: “Okay, and was this a period where they were computerizing things or miniaturizing things or not so much yet?” (1:10:55) Not so much yet, although yes we had the old IBM 360s I guess they were with the punch cards, that sort of thing it was that phase, it was– During that course I remember we had some civilians with us too and we had one from Hawaii and his unit gave him a calculator, calculators had just come out and pretty soon we all had calculators but he has a sophisticated one you know and so “Wow look at this thing!” Just punch numbers and it calculates for you, what was that Texas instrument set up? T– Something or other it was just– Yeah, so that was a big step in technology there just to get a calculator. Interviewer: “Alright, and now with this training once you’ve got it what do you do with it?” Got assigned to the COPAC, communicationations, electronics, engineering and installation– Interviewer: “Pacific?” �Lyssy, Walter Pacific, so we’re stationed in Hawaii, some military commanded by colonel, lieutenant colonel, deputy commander, a bunch of captains, and about half civilians, several service people engineers and so forth. Interviewer: “Were you still a captain at this point?” Still a captain and our main mission was to rebuild comm systems in Korea because Korea had been neglected all during the Vietnam war and all of their systems were really old and falling apart and so forth, we needed to rebuild Korea. So a lot of equipment was taken out of Vietnam and Thailand, sent to Okinawa, refurbished, and we bought lots of new stuff and we basically rebuilt the backbone of Korea. This is before satellite and so it’s– The world’s split up by Army, Navy, and Air Force as to who’s responsible for communications and so forth but we had our troop system coming out of Japan, shooting across in the southern part of South Korea. Did a microwave system that went throughout Korea mountaintop to mountaintop and down to post camp stations and telephone exchanges, cable systems, you know I’ve been to almost every place in South Korea that a G.I can go to, every mountaintop, every post camp station, so I got a lot of Korea. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you went to Korea how long a– Would you go for a few days at once or weeks?” (1:14:00) Sometimes it’d be two weeks and I remember one time it was I think three months, you’d go in and yeah you’re chasing down projects. You do site surveys, see what’s there, come back and get into the big plan of what needs to be replaced or equipment, once equipment comes in you have installation teams that come in and install, then Q&A people behind that to test things, get everything going, cut over from old systems to new systems. Pretty complicated process to fix a country like that. Interviewer: “Now how did Korea compare with Vietnam in terms of your impressions of the place?” �Lyssy, Walter Well to me Vietnam was just my unit in mountains, infantry unit fighting the war, as far as the country goes I know very little about it except that spot you know. I didn’t travel around Vietnam at all, I don’t think I ever went to a village or had zero experience like that with the, you know you see a lot of other G.Is “Oh yes.” and they go to dinner and they– You’re the guest of honor and you have to eat the head of the chicken and all that, I don’t know anything about that. We were out there in the mountains eating C rations. So Korea of course I experienced a lot with the local people cause we’d go to areas where G.I aren’t normally there, they had a town with a mountaintop next to it with a microwave system and so you’d intermingle with them and they were– G.Is don’t normally stay so forth, so yeah. Thailand was to me where I really related with a lot of people, totally different, that’s my favorite place those people really loved their country and they loved their king and their queen and it’s just a different place you know. Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean do the Koreans seem to recognize why you were there?” Oh yeah, sure they, you know you hear all the stories about Korea, what they are is they are strong people. (1:16:22) Physically strong, those short legs and put an A frame and lift up a drum of fuel and walk off with it, it’s unbelievable. Interviewer: “So at that point it wasn’t really developed in the manner that it is now, now it’s a very modern industrialized country with better internet than ours.” They didn’t have cars and so forth, now they all have cars but they don’t have roads so– But no it was– But we traveled and we had some Toyota Land Rover type vehicles that we drove ourselves. We took the blue train from Seoul down to Busan– Actually flew with Korea airline from Seoul to Busan, strange because you put the people in the back of the airplanes and there’s no door to the cockpit, solid wall, bolted, they come in through windows. Nobody can hijack that airplane with doors like that, take the Greyhound bus and then you take what we call the kimchi bus in the remote areas that– Really rough roads, get back in there, get all that stuff accomplished, yeah so got a lot of Korea time. Interviewer: “Okay, now how long did you spend in Hawaii?” �Lyssy, Walter Three and a half years in Hawaii, loved it. Interviewer: “Okay, and were you going back and forth to Korea the whole time or just for part of it?” Korea and other places, Taiwan, guys would go to the Philippines, Japan, Okinawa. Most of my work was Korea, I became the deputy commander after a while, I got promoted to major and became the deputy commander, the last year I didn’t travel much other people’d be going out, staying in Hawaii at that point. Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re in the Army in this period when they’re kind of– Vietnam is over, the Army is downsizing, shrinking and so forth it’s become an all volunteer Army. Did you notice any effects of those things aside from other officers getting rifted?” (1:18:33) Oh sure, after Hawaii command staff college and then at the Fort Ord, California 127 Signal Battalion was obviously part of the 7th Division and lot of soldiers, big battalion and one of the, it’s now full armed volunteer Army, standards for coming in the Army, what do we call that Cat IV? The category IV soldiers. Interviewer: “What does that mean?” Low IQs, very low standards, all kinds of soldiers coming in, the Signal Battalion was one of the battalion in the division who had females. So we, in our battalion of maybe 600, we had– We were at actually I think 110 females. So you had that mix also, so yeah lots of troop problems, I always thought it was silly but the division commander required the battalion commanders to have a 3x5 card in their pocket with every soldier who was coming up for reenlistment. We had to know all their names and interview them and beg them to stay in the Army, and a lot of them we didn’t want in the Army, so it was kind of nutso. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Now did the Signal Battalion get better qualified personnel than one unit or?” Not really, they were poorly trained, come out of the schools– We had all our– We had, you know, all our troop problems, lots of troop problems and good soldiers too, don’t get me wrong we had great soldiers, male or female they all come like the same. I remember our soldier of the year in our battalion was a female soldier, she was great she got out of the Army and a few months later she married the platoon leader. Oh, didn’t know that was going on. Interviewer: “Did the female soldiers, I mean did having them available did that help you in terms of having people with talent to get stuff done or did they perform about the same level the men did?” Same level, really really bad ones, really really good ones, just like the guys they come in big and small, smart and dumb, all kinds yeah. Interviewer: “So what years was this that you were there?” (1:21:20) ‘78 to ‘81. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the attitude– You’re out in California, what’s the attitude of the people in the community to the soldiers and the military?” Well of course this is Monterey, California they’re used to having the military the Naval Postgraduate School was there, beautiful facility, basically I guess they really enjoy having the economy of the Army there but would just as soon not have the Army there. I remember all the meetings you’d have to go to to see if they would give permission to shoot mortars, forget artillery that makes way too much noise you can’t do that. It’s a silly place to have an infantry division, it rains in the winter time, the grass grows up 18–Two feet high in turns brown in the summer it’s crispy, any little spark is gonna set off a forest fire so you can’t shoot any weapons, you can’t do anything like that. So all the training has to be accomplished far away at Yakima, �Lyssy, Walter Washington or Fort Irwin, California and it takes a set of tires just to get there. So I mean it’s just– So yeah it’s a nutso place and guess what? It’s closed and it’s gone and if that makes sense, it’s not a good place to have a real Army infantry division, training was– Basic training, that sort of thing yes but not, you know you really can’t do very much out in the field at Fort Ord, California without burning it up. Interviewer: “Alright, and then now from here what do you do?” Well then I got assigned to Fort Sam Houston, Texas going to Texas finally. Always volunteered for Fort Hood which no one wanted to go to and I could never get into but that’s typical of, you know requesting something in the Army. So then I got assigned to Fort Sam Houston and I was director of telecommunications for Army’s Health Services Command which is the command that control the medical school plus all the hospitals from Alaska to Panama in the continental United States, that sort of thing. Interviewer: “Now has the technology advanced some for you?” (1:24:00) Oh yes, so now we’re in the early stages of computers, desktop computers, and let’s see I got– I think I had a desktop computer in ‘83, our commanding general at Fort Huachuca basically send us all signal guys a message saying “Got these things called desktop computers are coming, there’s gonna be one on every desk and there’s no school. I recommend you go get one and start training yourself.” And the Army had just had one of their first contracts out with Zenith– What was it called the Z-100? It was a dual five and half inch floppy disk computer, you had to load the operating system each time you turned the computer on and you could do word processing and a couple little things. So we started from there, just yeah train yourself cause you know you’re out there in the leading edge and nobody else knows either. So I was bringing in the first computers in the Army and then we– I guess my main accomplishment there was to do the early work with our computer guys and the medics had their own ADP corp at that point to do medical automation and working together with them we did trying to bring on systems in hospitals. First ones were a pharmacy system, an appointments system, a system called CAPOC, computer assisted practice of cardiology where you could actually do an EKG and send the EKG to �Lyssy, Walter somebody that knew how to read it and send the results back so you could use his expertise other than being there where he was. So we had these basic systems and we were installing them at various beta sites and hospitals, testing them and getting them going, those were early stages to what today is the composite health care system I believe it’s called, something like that which automates everything in the hospital, medical records to pharmacy to whatever. So it was a lot of work and we enjoyed it. Interviewer: “Sounds like an interesting job.” Oh yeah, it was good. Interviewer: “And was the Army getting a lot of– Were you getting kind of better quality people in there to do things?” Oh sure, well now you got a big medical headquarters that you’re dealing with, pretty top notch people. Interviewer: “So it’s not a single battalion.” (1:27:00) And the– Yeah the Army’s getting better too, yes in the early days of volunteers and category IVs and that sort of thing those were tough days trying to– And the turn over back then, our turn over in the 127 Signal battalion late 70s early 80s it was 125% a year. Interviewer: “Which means people are staying on average less than a year, isn’t it?” Yes, so you get this company, platoon and start training them and three months later half of them are gone, all these new people are coming in and you start training all over again and you just constantly– And this was at the point where it was decided that we’re gonna show the Russian and we’re gonna have, what was it? 16, 17 full divisions, we’re gonna be a big army. Well it’s kind of a fake army because I mean you didn’t have your basic equipment even issued to you. Those battalions didn’t have some of the major elements of multi-channel equipment that we �Lyssy, Walter needed, it wasn’t even issued. So what do we have here, you know but it worked I guess, we won. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so when do you finish then at Sam Houston?” ‘85 and I had my 20 years in and I was thinking I’m gonna retire and so forth and then the Army gave me this, put this little carrot out there to go to Belgium to NATO headquarters, SHAPE Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, with a specific job. Interviewer: “Okay and what was the job?” To go over as a comm systems engineer now to be in charge of building basically the bunker for SHAPE, SHAPE war headquarters. Huge project, three buildings, 80 meters long, four stories high, buried under ground under very tough conditions and to be where NATO was going to fight it’s war, fight the Russians from basically what that was all about and so. Interviewer: “And what sort of team did you have to work with there?” (1:29:40) Well this is a joint assignment, we have Army, Navy, and Air Force from 15 nations all together in one headquarters. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did that go?” My joint team was all U.S Army Signal Corps officers, so that was– It was– Yeah we were all U.S Signal Corps, had a great team, very complicated project. There was an Air Force lieutenant colonel who was the head of it before I got there and I took over from him, he was born in Russia, he was an electrical engineer, very bright and did everything in his head and he left. It was basically like that, probably overstating that but gosh there was no master plan. All these contractors bringing in all these boxes under their arms and all these sophisticated systems going on all over the place and now we got to put it all together and everybody was laughing at us saying there’s no way in– This is not gonna happen, you know there’s no way you can do it. We �Lyssy, Walter did it, basically it’s built just outside SHAPE headquarters, got the above ground headquarters for all 42 generals and staffs, our offices, and now you’ve got this underground bunker next– It’s right next to it cause when General Bernie Rogers was the SACEUR the decision was we’re gonna go and hide this thing in the den in the forest and so forth with satellites and we’re going “You’re not gonna hide this thing not with a project that size.” And he said “Build it right there.” and pointed out his window and that’s where it was built and so basically you have these doors, a lot of security and when the balloon goes up certain people from the above ground headquarters come into the bunker, close the doors I guess everybody else is expendable and they fight the war from there. Luckily we haven’t had to do that, I have no idea what the situation has to be, I don’t think anybody knows how much it cost to do that project because you’re basically dealing with– And the budget guy that worked for me too, he’s a great, super guy, Notre Dame graduate he would have to go to Brussels and appear before the committee to get the money to do the next step sort of thing and he just did a terrific job of it, he never failed to come back without– You know and it was all done good and we finished it, we got that project finished before I left in three years, it was cut over and ready to go. Interviewer: “And this is another case where you’re living in a different country, how did people there view you?” (1:32:50) Well you’re living on the French border in southern Belgium, french-speaking who pride themselves a little bit better than French in cuisine. It was no problem at all, very good, good relations yeah but you know when you work at a place like SHAPE with all of these generals and people from all over it’s funny because they all laugh at the Americans cause Americans are working like crazy and they’re not working so much, taking their one month vacations. I know when we first got there I had my desk across the other’s, desk to desk with an Italian lieutenant colonel and of course Americans for lunch time we go do PT, we go run, you got a PT test coming up and you gotta stay in shape so you’re out there and this Italian said “Oh about 11 o’clock I think it’s PT time. Pasta time.” So he goes off to eat, we go run, he’d laugh at us crazy Americans. It’s true I mean when you observe the Americans they’re just working their tails off. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Now while you’re there was this getting to be the point– Was Reagan president at the time?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay and then a lot of the push against the Soviets or the face down sort of thing.” Oh yes, we were really head to head with them, we like to think that our building that war headquarters and getting it completed and ready to go might have had a little bit to help accomplish that because we had a pretty secure place to fight a war from. Interviewer: “And it was at the point where our technology was kind of getting ahead of theirs.” (1:34:55) Yes and we were out spending them and our military was growing strong and this is a compartmented facility where you had a job and you’re allowed to go to that part of the bunker but no place else. Security was really a big deal, took a half an hour just to get in the place and– But I had a go anywhere pass because I was giving the tours because you’re gonna get very high ranking people come from various countries and find out what’s going on, where’s the money going, what are we building, that sort of thing and at one point Margaret Thatcher and President Reagan were supposed to come together, said “Oh my God.” It didn’t happen, you know how those schedules go, it didn’t happen but yes I’ve given some tours to some very high ranking NATO personnel from various countries come through and I take them on a tour of the facility and show them what’s where. It’s a very interesting facility, we don’t talk a lot about it but a lot of stuff is classified yet today I’m sure. Interviewer: “And then when did that tour come to an end?” In ‘88. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then you’ve got one more assignment after that?” Yeah from there I was sent to Fort Knox, where I first started, where my daughter was born and baptized in the chapel there and during that tour she was married in the same chapel, one Army career later and became the director of information management for the armor center Fort Knox. Interviewer: “Alright, on a practical level what did that mean?” You’re the chief signal officer but they’re giving you a whole lot more stuff under your wing, ran a printing plant with about 52 employees. The Army has a few printing plants that was one of them still going, obviously you ran the telephone system for the post, every telephone switch and all of those people, you’ve got a communications center sending messages in and out, the library, the record management. Just all sorts of things, anything to do with information is sort of under your purview, a lot of people so yeah. So that’s– That was what you wanted in directors at the armor center, and armor guys are good guys to work with, enjoyed it. Interviewer: “Alright and then the Gulf War happens towards the end of that assignment.” (1:37:35) Yes. Interviewer: “What was your perspective on that?” Well, Gulf War was an armor war and I’m at the armor center so that’s a very busy place, I mean we were working hard trying to assist, you know here, there, and yonder. Everything from personnel to equipment to logistics to tracking stuff, sending people. So it became a very busy place and of course it turned out great and those armored guys would come back and give their speeches, yes they were– Some of them were classified but you learned some, what happened, they did a good job. The big thing of course was our tanks weren’t ready to go and why Saddam allowed the U.S Army to bring all these tanks in from Germany and all these other places and retrofit them in Saudi Arabia and sat there and watched all this till they were ready to go and �Lyssy, Walter finally– You know it took a long time when we first started until we actually came across the border but they all had to be retrofitted not only with some weapons and so forth but primarily chemical warfare, all that sort of thing, it was a lot of work that had to be done so– And it got accomplished and it happened. Interviewer: “And was over very quickly.” Yes, a couple of days and it was over with. Interviewer: “Alright, so what finally motivates you to retire?” Oh it was time, I had done 26 years in. Interviewer: “And it gets harder to go up from each level doesn’t it?” Oh sure. Interviewer: “So lieutenant colonel to colonel was a fairly big jump.” (1:39:30) I don’t know if it’s– The early days in Vietnam and like my job petroleum in Thailand I said “My gosh if this is– I just made captain if this is what I– That much responsibility what am I ever gonna do if I make major?” Well I probably had more responsibility then than I did later because, you know the Vietnam War started and we were all just young guys and lots of work needed to be done and you got a lot of responsibility very quickly just to go get stuff done. I think it worked out pretty good, Americans are good at that. Interviewer: “So when you did finally retire out of the military, what did you do after that?” In ‘91 with the economy the way it was and so forth jobs were very difficult to obtain, I mean you know finding jobs, but we went back to San Antonio, Texas that was, you know we didn’t �Lyssy, Walter go to a job we went to the place we wanted to be and the wife was, even before I had retired, a few months she had already moved to San Antonio and she was a librarian. While we were at Fort Knox she got her master’s degree in library science and got a job in the school system and in San Antonio she was there already, then I came. Our youngest son was– Has already left Fort Knox for Texas A&M University, so we had no children with us anymore and I went back and long story short I invented a chemical paint stripper, I’ve always been a wood worker and that sort of thing and was quite successful at it and actually got it patented and kind of got into that business and did a lot of assisting and not only lead paint removal but historical restoration, Texas spent I don’t know $500 million I believe it was, something like that, restoring old courthouses and the architects would use me and my product but I’d have to go teach the contractors how to restore these beautiful old courthouses. Which were basically built with a lot of beautiful wood work, doors, windows, wainscoting, that sort of thing, it was all varnished, the varnish turned dark and people started painting them, maybe they might have 15, 20, 30 coats of paint. Showed them how to remove all that and restored all the woodwork and then I did a lot of historic buildings across the country. (1:42:25) Did the Calhoun house at Clemson University where they were trying to restore– That’s a historic building in the middle of Clemson with a lot of tradition to it, Calhoun was vice president under Grant and that property became Clemson University and they couldn’t figure out how to do it and I helped that. I actually worked on Robert E. Lee’s house at Arlington National Cemetery taking paint off those columns up front, I thought that was quite an accomplishment. So did that then– Always been a woodworker interested in that and basically now I’m fully retired and I do mesquite woodworking where I harvest mesquite trees in Texas, mill them into lumber, and then build high end furniture items from that which is quite popular in Texas. I’ve just completed a project for a church, an old church in San Antonio building the chairs for the priest and the altar boys for the church and I guess a week from Saturday we’re having a big blessing of the chairs and that sort of thing. So tough project though, God I worked myself to death on that one. Interviewer: “Alright, well the whole thing makes for a pretty good story so thank you very much for taking the time to share it.” Thank you. �Lyssy, Walter � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LyssyW2160V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lyssy, Walter Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10 Title A name given to the resource Lyssy, Walter (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Walter Lyssy was born in McCook, Texas in the early 1940’s and attended Texas A&I University in Kingsville, Texas where he was a part of the Army ROTC’s Signal Corps for four years. Upon graduating from college in May of 1965, he was commissioned. Lyssy was then sent to officer’s basic training at Fort Gordon, Georgia for eight weeks. Following his basic training, he received his first assignment at Fort Knox, Kentucky teaching radio operators. In the summer of 1967, Lyssy received his orders for Thailand and traveled to Korat to work in the 501st Field Depot distributing petroleum until July of 1968. Once he returned to the States, Lyssy attended a Special Forces school at Fort Bragg, North Carolina until he received orders to go to Vietnam and left for Vietnam in July of 1970. In Vietnam, Lyssy was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division and received service training at Camp Eagle where he also saw the events of the Ripcord Campaign. The day following the campaign, Lyssy was sent to Firebase Ripcord as part of the 2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry working as a communications officer for a few months before being sent back to Camp Eagle as a 1st Brigade signal officer and later additionally as beacon drop officer. Lyssy left Vietnam in July of 1971 and went to a signal officer’s advanced course in Fort Thomas, New Jersey for ten months. He then left for Hawaii, where he worked in communications, electronics, engineering and installation in the Pacific. While doing this work, Lyssy frequently traveled to Korea to rebuild communication systems and did so for approximately three years before going on to command staff college and Fort Ord, California in the 127th Signal Battalion until 1981. Lyssy was then assigned to Fort Sam Houston, Texas where he was director of telecommunications for Army’s Health Services Command until 1985. After that, he worked as a communication system engineer building a bunker for NATO headquarters until 1988. After that, he was sent back to Fort Knox for his last assignment, where he remained until he retired in 1991. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ed69e28efa630a4942bc30434adbfbbe.mp4 47eb9d8f260a889e0b2ad249a32e5da8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91490fbb012f28505933f9f795b7b7a7.pdf d14a7179843429f38cce32b104649a22 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview    Ken Maatman (1:20:27) • • • • • (3:30:00) Grand Rapids Michigan April 24 1920 Graduated from Grand Rapids Central Worked for Western Electric Company for one year after graduation Went to Grand Rapids Junior College till Pearl Harbor was announced (4:29:00)Enlists in the Army by January 29 1942 • • • Western Electric Company Installed equipment in Bell Telephone offices- Holland and Grand Haven area Crew of 5 guys Installed all of the wiring in the office to hook up equipment • • (5:19:00)Enlists in the Army 21 years old Outrage at the attack on Pearl Harbor-immediately wanted to be a part of events Went to United States Army Recruiting office –Grand Rapids Post Office Working for the phone company automatically went him and others who worked for the phone company to the signal core Reported to Fort Custer within a week Father felt it was a good idea, Mother did not think the same • • • • • • (8:03:00) Fort Custer The guys are separated by what was on the paper work Acres of barracks and men walking around as Ken gets off the bus Reported to Barracks-spent 3 months in basic training Received uniform upon arrival-was not custom fit (10:38:00)Began day at 5:30 a.m. for role call Calisthenics, breakfast, and then basic training • • • (12:49:00)Camp Crowder, Missouri New post specializing in Signal Core The Camp was not finished-part of their job was clean-up construction mess Classroom settings become part of their routine to learn Signal Corps • • • • �• Selected to go to Fort Monmouth New Jersey • (16:15:00)Fort Monmouth New Jersey Learned all aspects of Signal Corps Climbing telephone poles, laying wires etc. Ken enjoyed doing this job and felt he wanted to do something that benefited the military and the goal they had in the war Trained here for about 3 months • (17:35:00)191st Signal Corps Came from all different posts around the country • • • • (19:00:00)Joined 82nd Infantry division-Camp McCain-Mississippi Tar paper shacks Trained for role while working with infantry-approximately 3-4 months Ken wanted to apply for OCS-felt he wasn’t doing enough for his country This gave him the rank of 2nd Lieutenant upon graduation • • • • • (21:28:00)Fort Monmouth New Jersey OCS training Advanced basics and leadership role Became officer giving orders to recruits Continuously exchanged letters with family members Graduated as officer-no formal ceremony but did receive a certificate • (24:25:00)Back to the 82nd Infantry division-Officer Ken wanted to do more-applied for the Army/Air Core-accepted • • • • • (25:09:00)Sent to basic training Maxwell Field Alabama Stayed for primary training-PT17’s-3 months Became Pilot-wanted to fly Mitchell Bomber Advance training-single wing model plane Started learning maneuvers Ken developed Vertigo-released back to the Signal Corps • • (27:15:00)Fort Jackson-Signal Core-191st –South Carolina Received overseas assignment-didn’t know where though Needed China, Burma, India specialist • • • �• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • Constant state of flux on base-hard to establish relationship at this point with the guys Officers attended briefings, discussed men to be transferred, calisthenics, drills, and weapon training Ken was pulled out of the company to go to Wilmington California to accompany signal equipment and training equipment to Calcutta India (32:10:00)Wilmington California Waited around for 3 months-checked in daily waiting for ship to come in Norwegian freighter contracted to take Signal companies equipment escorted by one officer for each division On water 53 days before arriving in Calcutta India Traveled alone at sea doing a zigzag course Total of 7 officers from the Signal Corps aboard ship Meanwhile 191st infantry being mobilized to meet equipment in India The men had no idea what to expect in India Ken had never been out of the country before Ken noticed the people were very different in India that unloaded the ship-they were very small and dark skinned people (37:50:00)The guys went off ship looking for a place to stay and there was a mass amount of people-they didn’t think they would ever find a place to stay so they returned to the ship (38:32:00)Ledo India Equipment had to go by train or convoy 700-800 miles north from Calcutta to Ledo Headquarters for the supplies 191st infantry came to Ledo nearly 2 months ahead of Ken Companies separated according to specialties on stations all across the new Burma road They were installing pipe lines and communications down the Burma road also There were battles going on in Southern Burma (42:00:00)Burma was a jungle-nearly 150 ft deep Jungle carried mites that would give you lethal amounts of Scrub Typhus Mosquitoes carried Malaria Cholera, Dysentery, infections from leeches you couldn’t remove from your body 6,900 were killed in old campaign of China Burma India and the same were taken out for illness (45:00:00)Groups of men deployed to various locations to service communication devices �• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1,000 officers and 700,000 [ed. note—these numbers are much too high] Signal Corps men were headquartered here Some men were stationed in jungles where the Anoka head hunters were located along the India Burma borders Quartermasters and engineers would send messages telling them where they needed devices set up Had advantage on knowing what was going on with the war because they would monitor and record communications going over wire (48:40:00)Aircraft warning personal wandered into Naga area. They were greeted by Naga men with spears and were put up for the night with a guard to stay with them. They had bomb fire ceremonies and the men thought they were hostile toward them. Turns out that they were fighting off bad spirits from the aircraft personnel to protect them. Recorded message said that ‘the Nagas had gone to a village about 5 or 6 miles from them and wiped out a village of 100 people. The Nagas came back with 30 heads. We have pictures to prove it. Please send grenades back on next drop. We may need them’ The men were installing, repairing, replacement equipment (51:50:00)The officers traveled down the Burma road supervising the men and the progress Kun Ming-brought supplies to here-ended up flying over hump to Kunming, China Traveling on the Burma Road-the road was carved out of the mountains or thru the jungles. It was like riding on a shelf with total drops on the side. Many trucks fell off road and couldn’t be recovered. At times the rain would wash out parts of the roads and would have to wait for days for the engineers to clear it. (54:00:00) Monsoon season from May to October 110-150 inches of rainfall in this time Aircraft that flew over didn’t have doors on the plane and passengers would have to hold onto a rope to move around on the plane The ‘hump’ was the Himalaya Mountains-change in weather made this area dangerous Ken was in an instant hail storm-Pilot circled and climbed in one location until over the hail storm (57:00:00) Ken was responsible for Burma road leading from Burma to Ledo and turning into Kunming China for communication equipment 191st Infantry had no combat losses Had one C47 that went down-courier on board-sent out rescue party that failed to reach him into the jungle 2 men on other plane crashed over same area the first went down and they were also never heard from again �• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • (100:38:00) They had the sense they were winning the war The Great Retreat out of Burma-British and Americans were badly defeated [referring to earlier events] Points determined who would be going home first-from one month to five months (103:35:00) VE [VJ?] Day-they had picked it up thru the radio-Ken and the men were happy that the war was over (1:04:20:00)Calcutta India Big cities were strange in India-many people living on the streets People in villages were more friendly-lived in shacks City people were disease ridden, deformed, many beggars Made baseball diamond and volleyball court while they were in India At the end of war they had little to do. Much of the equipment was dumped or given to the Chinese. Gave them plenty of time for recreation. (1:07:13:00) Two men made movie-8mm tape-recorded events while the 191st Infantry was overseas and brought it home-transferred it to video tape-Casper Fabragal and James Baskerville, both New Yorkers made the film-still show the film at reunions (1:10:45:00)Heading home Brought into staging area for 1 to 2 weeks waiting for your ship Ken’s ship went to Fort Lewis Seattle-troop ship-took 32 days-the ship was full (1:13:55:00) There were docks loaded with people waiting to greet the men on the ship. The men were very proud of their accomplishments. Fort Lewis-staging area before going to Camp McCoy Wisconsin Discharge process involved going back through your records and checking to see what illnesses you had while you were in the service Ken can still not give blood because he had a touch of Malaria while he was overseas (1:15:25:00) Parents met Ken at Grand Rapids train station-very pleased to have him home Two other brothers of Ken’s were also in service-all came home alive *Ken is very proud of the opportunity to accomplish the tasks that are put on officers in the military at this time. He is very proud of the opportunity to do something that big. The memories of things that he seen, with cruelties and discomforts, had great �affect on individuals. Feels the work he did had big effect on the work he did after he was out of the military. *(1:19:00) Ken shares that when he was in Kohima, there are cemeteries’ where American Soldiers are buried and he found a sign on one of the crosses where a soldier was buried. “When you go home, tell them of us. For your tomorrow, we gave our today.” �. The United States Military Awards of 1st Lt Kenneth B. Maatman for service with (he United States Army Pacific Theater, World War II and U.S. Army Reserves Bronze Star Medal Service: All Services Instituted: 1944 .' Criteria: Awarded for heroicor meritorious achievement or service. Army Good Conduct Medal Service: Army Instituted: 1941 Criteria: Exemplary conduct, efficiency and fidelity during threeyears of enlisted service. American Campaign Medal Service: All Services Instituted: 1942 Criteria: Service during 1941-46 withinthe American Theater. '" Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal Service: All Services Instituted: 1942 Criteria: Awarded for service in the Asiatic-Pacific Theater during 1941-46. World War II Victory Medal Service: All Services Instituted: 1945. Criteria: Awarded for service in the U.S. Armed Forces, 1941-1946. China War Memorial Medal Country: Republic of China Instituted: 1945 Criteria: Awarded to personnel who served in the ChinaTheater, 1939 - 1945. Combat Service Commemorative Service Medal Honors military personnel who servedin an overseas combat theater. ". Asiatic Pacific Victory Commemorative Medal <Victory over Japan) Honors military personnel who served in the Pacific Theaterduring WorId War Il. World War IT Victory Commemorative Medal Honors service in the U.s. Armed Forces during World WarIl. Overseas Service Commemorative Medal Honors service in an overseas theater or expeditionary operation. u.S. Army Commemorative Medal Honors honorable service in the U.S. Armybetween 1775 and 2000. National Guard and Reserve Commemorative Medal Honors service in the U.s. National Guardand Reserves over the past 200 years. �,;.... ,. I ". ~ . 'I' Pi'."" ;.~: ~ -, ·r ~, .c".>;··", " ~/ ",:.~I: ~J . :Ir.'- ', .. ~ . ' ~')"""":' ..r:,·'.\.['~.{:;0·."". . tJJ:~'" ___ . . _ .... \ .-;« ~ rJ\::tj .'.~ . ....,.. . - ~._ '... ...... __.-.. ~ .'-------,. .'l-<\~.:l' , .... .:'\....I'--J ..·.·,_.j--.~~ .. ~ .. -,:/: ,,~ .... ~., ;"'",,.-.JJiit.. - ...'-. -._1 :-. . ~ Phyllis Koning 1/ L7 ( tJ V ?k ~1 y- .?1b==-.:...:;tA...=----._- _ -~chM.~F= ~~ Z-- CL~~~_M-~_.tl'0-~ _~ iJd~~#t~~ __ ~ -~~_.~--~~­ _J_~1--C_~~ .. /f~C;U~­ ~~--~ --._­ ___ Lrj.L~ ~ Z2. ~:t~ ~_ ~A~s!fe,_, _t..._'!=~;=­ ~.u_~w_~~+­ -~!=-f-L-Ic~J-#a...~~ ~ .~~~~/lL~ --~~~~~ -~i ~ awuLIa.LLi ;1 ilL The Games of the XXVIII Olympiad Athens • 13-29 August 2004 DS311 /6 t-/ ca» - (;).e ~ ()A.e.. ~~~ ~,~, --£Y ~ ~ ~M ~ 7t r 4J: ~ fcJ...f)" ~ r~ /lA.L- ~ ~ ~p~~~~ ~~~-~ l~ ~~~/~F . . ~••. L \ . ~ ,'J I~ ~~ ~­ , .. ~~ ~ , �Velma R. Maatman 1358 W. Thornberry ~t., SE Grand Rapids, Michigan 49546 August 20, 2004 Mr. Michael Lloyd, Editor The Grand Rapids Press 155 Michigan, NW Grand Rapids, Michigan 49503 Dear Mr. Lloyd: My husband and I think the enclosed article from The Modesto Bee newspaper in Modesto, California, shoUld appear in The Grand Rapids Press. I hope you agree. Col. Koning's article appeared in The Modesto Bee newspaper July 25, 2004. This is an account-oI what the United States is doing in Iraq to rebuild services for the Iraqi people. Terrorism is only one part of what is going on in Iraq. Col. Koning returned from Iraq July 1st after a six month tour of duty as Commander of the Southern Engineer District where he was engaged in the reconstruction of civil services. He had 4,000 Iraqis working for him. Colonel Thomas L. Koning was born in Royal Oak, Michigan, graduated from the West Point Academy, and now resides in Concord, Massachusetts, with his wife and two children 'where he is the commander of the New England Engineer District outside of Boston. His parents, William and Phyllis Koning, were born and raised in Grand Rapids and lived here until after graduating from ~he University of Michigan. They now reside in Modesto, Cali­ fornia. Col. Koning's grandfather, Gillis Vandenberg, worked for. The Grand Rapids Press over 40 years. Please give this article your attention. Thank you. For more information you may contact: Judy Sly, editor of Opinions Page The Modesto Bee Modesto, CalTIOrnia Phone: 209 578-2317 E-Mail: jsly@modbee.com Sincerely, o~~ It? ~"'---' Velma Maatman (Mrs~ Kenneth) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MaatmanK Title A name given to the resource Maatman, Kenneth (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maatman, Kenneth Description An account of the resource Ken Maatman was an Officer in the Army Signal Corps during World War II. He supervised the installation and maintenance of communications lines in the China/Burma/India theater, particularly along the Burma Road in the last two years of the war. Letters and military documents appended to outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-09-09 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/374c6b1911135ec572dabc75b5b11069.mp4 3dc9330be1514ae4de8ab04772d5dae6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3395aceba2b6f992e81ad504a2132fa.pdf 59db1f5c5102fa3d08b22e7c83c1a849 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Eddie MacDonald Length: 35:11 (00:25) Background Information • • • • Eddie was born on a farm in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1936 His father worked for GM and spent time working on their small fruit and dairy farm He went to school in Byron Center, Michigan and graduated in 1954 After graduating Eddie began a plumbing apprenticeship (3:30) Army Enlistment • The Army had started a new program that allowed people in college or an apprenticeship to enlist for a period of only 6 months • Eddie enlisted in 1957; the Korean War had ended, but many were still worried about the Cold War • He went through training at Fort Leonard Wood for 8 weeks • They had class sessions, physical training, bivouacking, and rifle training • Eddie worked well with the discipline and later felt that everyone should be in the service for at least 6 months • Many of his drill sergeants were Korean War veterans (9:35) Advanced Training • Eddie was allowed to return home for Christmas Break and then was shipped to California for advanced infantry training • The fort was a very large and modern facility • They began working more on infantry with rapid fire machine guns, 30 calibers, BARs, 105s, and bazookas • They would go bivouacking for 2-3 weeks at a time for field training • They did not get many breaks or much time to relax • At the end of the 6 months Eddie became part of a control group that was similar to a reserve unit that was to be maintained for 6 years (15:55) Back to Michigan • Eddie returned to his home in Michigan and continued in the plumbing business and got married in 1959 • In 1961 Kennedy had called on the country to enlist and Eddie received a letter saying that he had been “invited to rejoin” the service • He was able to apply for temporary deferment for a few weeks, but would ultimately have to rejoin �• • • The entire 32nd Division of reserves had been called up and they were mostly from Wisconsin with a few from Michigan Eddie was sent in a train from Chicago to Fort Lewis in Washington They were not sure where they were going, though most figured they were going to Berlin or Vietnam (19:40) Fort Lewis • They later found that the 4th Division of Fort Lewis had been sent to Vietnam and they had been sent to Fort Lewis to replace them • The men began training again and working on the rifle range • They kept hearing rumors that they would soon be sent to Vietnam • Eddie’s minister’s cousin lived in Tacoma and he often visited his home and had dinner with his family • Eddie’s wife later moved to Washington and they lived together off the base (30:00) After Service • Eddie and his family moved back to Michigan and he continued working in his plumbing business • He had been in Washington for one year and was done with the reserves afterwards • Eddie stayed in contact with many of the men in his unit • Eddie had learned to be respectful, earned discipline and integrity • The time in the service had opened his eyes to the rest of the world � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MacDonaldE Title A name given to the resource MacDonald, Eddie (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource MacDonald, Eddie Description An account of the resource Eddie MacDonald enlisted in the US Army in 1957. He trained as an infantryman at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri. After six months, he was sent home in reserve status and then called up in 1961. He served two years, much of his time spent at Fort Lewis in Washington, and was not sent overseas. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-11-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f87f4865e161fefdf4c3df8be2ddeac1.mp4 6d2c05c2d821b55f966128c80d48cc61 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7537d3eca3aab109f56fb567115e9185.pdf 9cab062c169115c969be6c2a9e7e86ae PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Robert Machiele (06:56) (00:15) Background Information • Robert was born on March 7, 1944 in Zeeland, MI • His father worked at a casket factory • Robert worked making kitchen cabinets before the war (01:41) Training • Robert went through 8 weeks of basic training • He then spent 8 weeks in wheeled vehicle mechanics school at Fort Knox (02:08) Adaptation • There were more than 40 men per room • They did what they had to so they would get along • He was in Virginia for a year (02:45) Leaving the US • Robert was first sent to California then flew to Anchorage, Okinawa, and then Vietnam • He didn’t see any action but he saw a lot of destruction • Robert was a mechanic and worked on the Road Construction Company • He was able to send letters home and occasionally phone home • On his days off he would sometimes ride with the truck drivers (04:26) Back to the US • • • • • • Robert went home in 1968 before the war ended His family met him at the airport to greet him Some people in the community were negative because of the unpopular war It was easy for him to adjust to being home because he was not gone long Robert kept in touch with some of the friends he made for a few years Being in the Military and in Vietnam helped him appreciate his freedom and become more mature � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MachieleR Title A name given to the resource Machiele, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Machiele, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Machiele was drafted into the US Army in 1966 and served with a road construction unit first in Virginia and then in Vietnam. He was in Vietnam in 1967-1968, where he was not involved in combat, but saw a good deal of destruction. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCarthy, Nicholas (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-16 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1079737e4584080c01160dda19cba33a.mp4 580d020f740d6cd580ab039cbe40cdf7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dbe32ac8dedef2368393013fd2526cd4.pdf 672d1136303b0052bff502e082676d0d PDF Text Text Mackey, Michael Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Michael Mackey Length of Interview: (55:31) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay, Mike. Begin at the beginning. Where and when were you born?” Third of February, 1948. Crawfordsville, Indiana. Interviewer: “All right. Now did you grow up there, or did you move around?” No. My dad was in the military. We moved to Japan when I was five years old, and we stayed there for two years. Interviewer: “So what do you remember about living in Japan?” Colors. I remember a lot of colors. It was right after the war, and I remember the communists marching and demonstrating. And, as a little kid, I just remember bright colors. And I remember my maid vaguely who stayed with us and just little things. That’s pretty—You know. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and so where did you wind up going to high school?” (1:00) I went to high school really in two places. I went to Wai’anae High School in Hawaii, and then from Wai’anae we moved to Plum Branch, South Carolina. My dad got transferred to Fort Jackson, and then I graduated from Airport High School in West Columbia, South Carolina. Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate from high school?” 1966. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you got out of high school?” I’m trying to—I worked in a sign company. Colonial—houseman—Heights. Building signs for about eight, ten months, I think, before the army started getting close. Interviewer: “Okay, so Vietnam was going on. There was a draft going on.” Yes. Right. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now how much did you know about Vietnam at that point?” �Mackey, Michael Just what I’d seen on TV. I remember—I remember helicopters a lot because they were on TV every night, and that’s the main thing I remembered about Vietnam. It was just starting to really get hot in that timeframe. Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, so at that point do you decide to enlist before—Or do you get a draft notice? Or what happens?” (2:05) No. My dad—He was career military. He had been in—stayed in for thirty-three years. Did all— He did World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. And he had told me that I need to talk to a recruiter and start taking tests for schools that the army had to offer. So I took all the tests that I could think of to take. I hoped to be like a rocket repairman or something where I wouldn’t have to go to Vietnam. That’s what my endgame was. And didn’t work out that way. And he had called me one day, and he said, “Mike, you’d better go down and join something.” “In the next few days,” he said, “you’re fixing to get your draft notice.” So I went and talked to the recruiter, and I said, “What kind of a school can you give me?” And he said, “Only thing I can give you right now is a rotary-wing flight.” And I said, “Oh, no. I don’t want to do that.” I said, “I’ve seen the helicopters on TV. I know they’re getting shot down. People getting killed. I don’t want to do that.” He said, “Well, that’s the only school I can give you.” Long story short, I took it because he offered me a four-month delayed entry, which was like an eternity to an eighteen, nineteenyear-old kid. “Four more months? Oh, yeah, I can do that.” Interviewer: “All right, so when do you report for duty?” It was in the summer of ‘67. Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go?” I went to Fort Jackson thinking that’s where I would do my basic training because that’s what they had told me. They lied. I got to Fort Jackson. Got checked in. They put me on a bus and sent me to the airport and put me on a plane to Fort Polk, Louisiana. And ended up there for basic. Interviewer: “All right, so what was basic training at Fort Polk like?” Hell. Hot and nothing to do off the base. Of course, we never got to go off the base to begin with. And scary. Any kid that tells you it wasn’t scary—Basic training was scary. When you get off that cattle truck, and you have six drill sergeants yelling at you… Interviewer: “Yeah. Were you expecting that?” Sort of because my dad had told me kind of what to expect, but it’s never—Hearing what to expect and being in the middle of it is two different things. But it was—It was scary. (4:06) Interviewer: “Okay. Were you in good physical shape when you went in?” Oh, yeah, yeah. �Mackey, Michael Interviewer: “Okay, so you could handle the physical stuff?” I could handle physical stuff. I actually gained weight in basic training like I guess most people do. It’s mostly muscle. Interviewer: “You build up your muscle. Yeah. Okay. Now the guys who were there along with you…Did you have a sense of where they were from, or if they were drafted?” Oh, yes. Yeah. And everybody, from poor farm boys to people that were going to be going to flight school and people who were going to go to OCS—They’re all bunched together in Fort Polk. That’s where they sent all of us who were going to warrant officer flight school. We all went through basic at Fort Polk, Louisiana. Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, so a lot of the guys that you trained with there went with you then through flight training?” Well, we all went there. Yeah, but we all kind of went different ways there. In different classes. Interviewer: “Right. Okay. But do you think you were in a unit that was geared specifically toward people who were going to go to the flight school, or…?” No, I don’t really—I don’t really think that was their purpose. I can’t really figure out what their purpose was to send us all to Fort Polk because there was really nothing different about it—its basic than any other base. Like I think— Interviewer: “Yeah. Well, sometimes they would group people with potentially similar MOSs or similar backgrounds together just—Because they did that.” Right, but—This is just my opinion. But what warrant officer flight school did—They gave us a Class 2 flight physical before entering the service to see if we were viable. When you get to basic training, they give you a Class 1, which is a little bit more serious. They dilate your eyes and all this stuff. And several people in basic flunked the exam. The physical. So they ended up going to what they call Tiger Land, which is AI—infantry AIT at Fort Polk. So I think that’s their purpose. If they flunk you out, or you didn’t pass your physical, they just moved you over here, and now you’re an infantry guy. Interviewer: “All right. Or, at least, that certainly happened to some people.” It happened to several people. Interviewer: “Okay. Now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the army for real?” That’s a good question. Boy. (6:00) Maybe—Maybe not that bad because my dad had been—All I knew was military from him, but I—It was not horribly difficult. It’s a big adjustment for probably anybody to do that. �Mackey, Michael Interviewer: “Okay, and do you think you held up better than some of the other guys, or…?” Yeah. Well, some of the other guys. Sure. We had crazy people there. Yeah, one guy tried to commit suicide several times. Interviewer: “And how did the instructors treat you?” I would say—I really didn’t think badly. I mean, I don’t remember ever getting singled out, but that was my whole thing. My dad just taught me to kind of don’t show—Don’t stand out. Just kind of be in the middle, and I kind of did that. I just stayed in the middle. I didn’t want to be too good or too bad. Interviewer: “All right, so how long did that last?” The feeling, or the…? Interviewer: “No, the actual—the basic training.” Two months. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then is your next stop now starting the flight training?” Our next stop—And this is about—It ended up being about Christmastime. We reported to Fort Wolters, Texas for primary flight school. And once we did preflight—You go through preflight for a month. But we reported there right before Christmas. And we were there about a week, and they turned us around and sent us home on leave because it was Christmas. So we went home and then came back. And my—When I got back from leave to Fort Wolters, Texas, my preflight class was scheduled to be a couple weeks away, so I had time—I would have had time to get my uniforms ready, and—They’re really picky. They moved me up, so I started like two days after I got back. None of my stuff was ready, so I’m ironing clothes, sewing patches. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now—So this preflight training—This is also—You’re becoming—I guess we ought to explain a little bit for an outside audience. You’re becoming a warrant officer. What is a warrant officer?” (8:10) You’re becoming—Yeah. A warrant officer is kind of an inbetween rank. You’re a specialist when you finish whatever warrant you’re in. You’re a specialist in that field. I mean, nobody expects you to do other things. You’re—This is what you’re trained to do. Like in my case, it’s a pilot. You might be an ordnance warrant. There’s all kind of different warrants, but all you’re expected to do is what you’re trained to do. You’re between an officer and an enlisted man, so it’s a great rank. Nobody really knows what to do with you, so you just do your job. Interviewer: “All right. Now the first weeks of this training...What’s the focus?” �Mackey, Michael The first month of the training, I think, is basically warrant—shadowing people because it’s all— It’s like OCS. It just—On you all the time. It was probably worse than basic as far as inspections and messing with you and just trying to get you to—See if they could make you quit. I think that was the whole purpose. Just to see if they can wash you out. Interviewer: “And what proportion of the class do you think washed out?” At that point, I think maybe—It wasn’t a great, great proportion. I think maybe five or ten percent at the most. It wasn’t a lot. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now are they starting to actually teach you things about flying or aircraft?” Yeah, you’re still—You’re going through ground school. Learning about weather. You’re learning about being an officer. Just learning basic things. And then after that’s over, they, of course, start flight school, which—Then it gets harder. Interviewer: “Okay. Now, with the flight school, did they just go ahead—and they put you into a helicopter with an instructor—and get started?” Yeah, pretty much. You got a half—Split them in half. One half of the day is the ground school where you’re learning about flying and all kinds of other things, and then the second half is actually flying. And they stick you with an instructor, and you find out how uncoordinated you are. Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. What kind of aircraft did you start out in?” (10:20) OH-13. The Korean Bubble. If you ever watch M*A*S*H, that’s what it was. Interviewer: “All right, and how easy or hard was that to fly?” Initially, it was crazy. I had a judge tell me one time—He says, “Flying a helicopter is like sitting on a beach ball in a swimming pool.” And that’s what it felt like at first. Interviewer: “All right, and how did the process work? I mean, what kind of stuff were you—I mean, did you start with taking off, or does the instructor take off and then start having you do things in flight?” Now, basically, I think you start out trying to learn to hover. He would sit there and hover the helicopter, and he’d explain what each control did. And as he explained what each control did, he’d say, “Okay. Now you’ve got the cyclic, which is the stick.” And he’d tell you what it did, and you’d hold it. And then, “Oh, that’s not too bad. I can hold the stick.” Then he’d add something. “Okay. Now this is the collective. This is what it does. Now get a hold of it.” So now you’ve got two things. Then he’d say, “These are the pedals. You’ve got the pedals.” And, all of a sudden, you’re all over the place. You just—It’s crazy. �Mackey, Michael Interviewer: “All right. Now how dangerous was the training?” Pretty dangerous. Pretty dangerous. We had one kid in our class—he wasn’t in my flight, but he was in my class—that his first solo, his engine quit. And in a helicopter when the engine quits, the procedure is to lower the collective and take the load off the blades. He pulled the collective. The blades stopped. (12:02) And he died. Interviewer: “All right. Did you have any close calls yourself or scary moments?” Yeah, maybe scary moments, but it was self-induced. I was chasing a hawk one time while I was flying solo, and I shouldn’t have been. I got too close to him, and it almost went through the blades. Did stupid stuff in confined areas. I’d try to take off backwards, and I did— Interviewer: “How old were you at this point?” I think I was nineteen. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. That may explain a lot.” Yeah. Interviewer: “But yeah, that was characteristic, I guess, of a lot of the warrant officers who were all pretty young.” Right. We all did the same. We all did the same. We were all crazy. It’s like a kid getting a really nice sports car, you know. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and so—Well, you get through that in one piece. Once you survive that, then what do they do with you?” Yep. Well, then, after you solo, pretty much it’s just a learning curve. Getting better and better and better. You’re practicing engine failures. They actually let you go out by yourself and fly around most of the time, and you fly with an instructor just very little. And just basically honing your skills pretty much. Interviewer: “Right, and then once you complete that training at Fort Wolters, what do you do next?” I went to Savannah to Hunter Army Airfield. We had a choice when I went through. You could go to Fort Rucker, Alabama, or you’d go to Savannah, Georgia. Savannah was close to my home, and so I went to Savannah. And in Savannah we started out flying Hueys instead of—Fort Rucker—They went to OH-13s just like I was flying in basic, but we flew Hueys in Savannah starting from the beginning. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you like flying a Huey better than—” �Mackey, Michael Oh, lord, yes. You didn’t have to worry about a throttle control. It was much smoother. Much more powerful. And we were flying instrument training, which was very, very mentally challenging. I mean, you’re flying under a hood. You can’t see outside. You’re just looking at the instrument panels and trying to fly. So it made it a lot easier for that. (14:14) Interviewer: “Okay. Did that turn out to be very helpful when you got to Vietnam?” Yeah. Helpful and harmful. They teach you just enough. In flight school, they’d give us what they called a tactical instrument ticket. Was just enough to keep you out of trouble but just enough to get you in trouble, too. It wasn’t—They could’ve went a little further and helped us a lot, but they didn’t. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So how long did you stay in Savannah?” It was four months. Interviewer: “Okay, so when do you complete that course?” Seems to me like it was in November of ‘68. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then once you’ve done that, what do they do with you?” Well, in my case, everybody in my flight school class went to Vietnam immediately. My dad was in Vietnam when I finished flight school. Interviewer: “What was he doing at that point?” My dad was an admin sergeant major with thirty something years in the military, so he was in a very safe place in Saigon. He was pushing paper and getting orders and stuff. And he had volunteered to go to Vietnam to keep me from going when I got out of flight school. Interviewer: “Okay, so because he’s in Vietnam—you have a family member there—you can’t go?” I can if I volunteer, but I didn’t. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so what did you do instead?” They sent me to Germany. I got to Germany, and it took me about a month to feel like I was just a fish out of water. I’m thinking about all my friends who are in Vietnam. I think I’d been in Germany maybe three months, and my roommate from Vietnam, one of my best friends, got his jaw blown off in a Cobra. (16:01) And I got to feeling so guilty. I actually volunteered to go to Vietnam. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now where were you in Germany?” �Mackey, Michael Würzburg. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your job there?” We flew around a colonel—Air Defense Artillery colonel—to different Air Defense sites. It was a great job as far as aviation jobs are concerned. We had three pilots and three aircraft. Interviewer: “Yeah. And what’s daily life like in a place like that?” For me, it was very boring. I mean, I was so young. Everybody else was kind of old. There were only, like I said, three pilots, and two of them were married. And I’m single by myself, and it was—That’s very boring for me. Interviewer: “Okay, and to a certain extent, you’re kind of stuck on a base waiting for the colonel to decide what you’re going to do?” Yeah, pretty much, and it’s—I just wasn’t ready to be there, and I had—Like I said, I was so concerned about my friends that I just felt so guilty. Interviewer: “Right. Okay. So when do you get to Vietnam?” I get to Vietnam in August of 1969. Interviewer: “All right, and then what’s the process for getting you to Vietnam? Did you go home first, and then…?” Yeah, I went home on leave from Germany, and then I went from—From leave I went to Fort Rucker to go through CH-47 transition, which I think was six weeks or somewhere around— month to six weeks—and then to Vietnam. Interviewer: “Okay, okay. CH-47. Now is that the Chinook?” Yes, Chinook. Interviewer: “Okay. Now explain how that’s different from a Huey.” Well, it’s a multi-engine, heavy lift helicopter. Multi-engine. Huey’s got one engine. If it gets shot out, you’re going down. Chinook’s got two. If it gets one engine shot out, you’re not going down. You can fly it home. It’s basically a safer aircraft. Interviewer: “Okay, and harder to fly?” Not really. Probably easier to fly. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now how did you wind up doing that?” (18:06) �Mackey, Michael I felt like when I volunteered to go to Vietnam, it’d be the safest course. And the warrant officer—We had a W-3 in Germany, and he advised me a little bit. And he said, “You should probably try to get a Chinook transition because—” Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so you’ve applied for that. You do that training.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay, and then in August of ‘69, now you make it to Vietnam. So from the States how do they get you to Vietnam?” Freedom Bird or just a commercial airliner they’d chartered. Interviewer: “And where did you fly out of?” I flew out of Oakland. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and where did you land in Vietnam?” Saigon. Interviewer: “Okay, so Tan Son Nhut? Tan Son Nhut. Yeah, Tan Son Nhut. Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, and what did they do with you once you land?” Well, we landed in the evening, of course. At night. I think that’s probably when they all did. But they put you in a bus, and they take you to the 93 Placement detachment or depot. Whatever it was. And the thing I remember about getting on the bus is the screen. They had chicken wire all along the windows, and I couldn’t figure out what that was for. Well, they told us before we left on the bus that it was to keep hand grenades from getting thrown into the bus. That made sense. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, and a lot of guys have had that—And that’s one of the most common things to pop up in these stories. But yeah, okay. What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there?” Stink. The smell and the heat just overwhelmed you. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so now you go the replacement depot, and how long do you spend there?” We were there for—If you go into the 101st, which I was, you were there for—I think it’s four days. They send you to a little, short course to teach you some things about Vietnam. Things you can expect before they send you to your unit. �Mackey, Michael Interviewer: “Okay, so what kinds of things were on the program?” Well, they showed you how sappers could get through the wire and get into your perimeter, and they showed you booby traps. And, you know, stuff, as a pilot, I’m probably not going to see. (20:07) But I guess if I got shot down, maybe I might see it. But still. It’s just stuff that was probably good for the people around me on the ground, but it wasn’t that helpful for us. Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, and otherwise get you used to the climate a little bit and just—” Yeah. Funny, funny story—and I don’t know if anybody else has told you—is they give you this sleeping shirt when you get there, and it’s like—It might be a hundred and teens outside, and you’re just sweating your butt off. And they give you this long sleeve shirt to sleep in. And I’m sitting there, thinking, “Are you guys insane? I mean, I’m not going to wear this damn thing.” I gave mine away when I got to my unit. And then the monsoons came, and then I wished I had it back. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so once you complete that, now what happens?” Now they put us on a C-130, and they fly us from Tan Son Nhut up to Phu Bai where the 101st headquarters is at. And they had a—I think it was a Jeep waiting for us. I think there were—me and one other guy—two pilots that were going to the same company, and they picked us up. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and which company is that?” Charlie Company. Playtex. Interviewer: “Of what unit?” 159th Assault Support Helicopter Battalion. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, and what kind of reception do you get when you join the unit?” Hardly any. Seriously. Just come in, and they tell you where you’re going to sleep tonight. And that’s about it. Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you’re first there, what kind duties or training do you get?” They throw you right into the mix. Best I can remember. You start out on the flight schedule. They’ll put you with an experienced aircraft commander, and you start flying. Start flying missions the first day or two you’re there. (22:02) Interviewer: “Okay, and what kinds of missions were they flying when you started?” We were flying resupply missions—mostly to artillery bases—resupplying ammo, food, anything. Hauling bulldozers. Heavy lift stuff. �Mackey, Michael Interviewer: “Okay. Were you going to the A Shau Valley at that point?” We were going out to the edge, not into it. But we were right at the—still at the edge of it. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right. Now when you’re first flying as a co-pilot, what kinds of jobs do you have, or what are you doing while the other guy’s actually flying the aircraft? Well, basically, the aircraft commander’s in control of the missions, and the way most of them worked is he’d fly a load, I’d fly a load, he’d fly a load, I’d fly a load. And as you got further along and the more experienced, they’d actually let you start running the missions to see if you could do it. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right, and then at a certain point—I mean, how long does it take for you to become an aircraft commander?” About three months usually. Somewhere in that area. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now in the—kind of the west—In the first few months of flying there, was it particularly dangerous, or was it quiet?” It was pretty dangerous. We were up on the demilitarized zone and flying into some very bad terrain, very bad area where a lot of North Vietnamese regulars were. There wasn’t Viet Cong. It was regular army people. Interviewer: “All right, and how quickly did you start getting shot at?” Oh, I remember the first time I got hit. I hadn’t been there but maybe three weeks or a month, and we got hit with a .51 caliber machine gun on the DMZ. And it hit us in the fuel cell, and we started spraying fuel everywhere. Interviewer: “Okay, so what does the pilot do when that happens?” (24:05) We landed at a Special Forces base, which was right up on the DMZ, and we shut down there and checked everything out. I think they plugged the hole with bubblegum or something just to keep it from spewing out and going through the exhaust of the engine and catching fire. Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you still a co-pilot at that point?” Yes, yes. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Okay, so you’re going up along the DMZ as well as kind of up to the hills.” �Mackey, Michael And around Khe Sanh, too. We were working out in that area at that point. I was up—We were pretty close to Khe Sanh when we got hit. Interviewer: “Okay, and then how does weather affect what you do?” Oh, really horribly. Monsoons in I Corps were really, really bad, and the weather—We’d get down to maybe a 100, 150 foot ceiling, which means you can go up about 150 feet before you put your blades in the clouds. And we were actually running missions and that where we would basically hover around, carrying loads to places. When you couldn’t get any altitude or air speed, you’re just hovering around. Interviewer: “And would you be—sometimes just be in the middle of a cloud, hovering above something, and…?” Well, when Ripcord happened, we actually did that kind of thing. We—They were so—They put them in, and then they got socked in almost immediately. Had no—They were running out of everything and begging for us to bring stuff to them any way we could, and we started shooting approaches to the—about the middle of the mountain. The clouds had come down to about the middle of the mountain. We’re shooting approach down to where we could still see, and then try to hover up to the clouds. Just trying to see a little bit of ground as you could. Hover up to the clouds to get stuff to them. Interviewer: “Could people on the ground guide you at all or help?” Sometimes they can guide you by sound if they hear you coming, and they tell you, “Come a little bit to the right. A little bit to the left.” But basically, no, they can’t really help other than that. (26:09) Interviewer: “And there wasn’t any kind of signal system, or…?” No, not for that. This was just improvisation. We—I forget who did it first. One of our—I think it was John Wagner. He was a—my roommate, and I think he was the first one to try it and did it. And he told us, and then, of course, we all try it. Interviewer: “All right, and, I guess—Now the way, I guess, the sequence works, I guess, is that when you first arrive, it’s still the dry season, so you can still operate.” When I first got there, yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, and then the monsoon comes in late in the year and extends into the…” It extends into March or somewhere around there. Interviewer: “March. Yeah. Yeah, and the first attempt to actually establish the Ripcord base was in March.” �Mackey, Michael Right. Interviewer: “And that actually was aborted. Now were you part of that effort, or were you…?” No, not the initial effort, but initially I think they were trying to put infantry in, and they couldn’t get them in. We’re usually second. Once the infantry gets in and secures the base, then we bring the artillery in. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Okay, and so they hadn’t gotten that far in the sequence.” Not initially, no. Interviewer: “Yeah. Now April 1st they try again, and this time they’re landing on the hilltop that becomes Ripcord. And they get some infantry in. Right. Interviewer: “Now were you on standby for that as well?” Yeah, then we got—Well, then we started bringing in the artillery pieces. Interviewer: “Yeah, well, the—April 1st, when they went—They left the hill. They couldn’t—They were under enough fire that they called that off. So the middle of April, I guess—about the twelfth or something like that—” I guess. It’s hard to—I don’t remember a whole—when they first put them in Interviewer: “Yeah, but what you remember is when they’re actually building the base.” Right. Yeah. Interviewer: “So now you’re bringing stuff in.” Yeah, we’re bringing stuff in. Bulldozers. We’re bringing in artillery pieces and resupplies. All kind of heavy stuff they need. Interviewer: “All right. Were there some loads that were harder to manage than others?” Yeah. Conex containers. Big, square, steel boxes. They tended to want to flop around in the wind, and you don’t want them flying too far back up behind you because they can go through your blades. (28:09) They were hard to carry. You had to go pretty slow with them. Not relative to Ripcord, but downed aircraft—Cobras—were very hard to haul. They wanted to fly. �Mackey, Michael Interviewer: “So the—I mean, the rotors would go, or…?” The way it was—The way they were streamlined, for some reason, they’d just get lift. And they’d want to fly. Interviewer: “So they’d kind of being going up—” Yeah, they’d be rising up. And I was hauling one one time, and I—We have a cargo mirror, and I looked up in it. And I’d seen the tail boom of the Cobra up here, so we had to slow down a lot. But they were very difficult to haul. Interviewer: “Okay. Now what are some of the most challenging missions in terms of things to pick up or drop off?” Bulldozers. You had to get really, really low on fuel to pick them up and carry them because they’re so heavy. We carried other downed Chinooks with a Chinook, and you’d have to get really low on fuel. We had some radio relay stations around Khe Sanh that were very, very bad places to go, so we’d haul a double load. Instead of eight thousand, we’d carry sixteen thousand pounds. Interviewer: “Okay. Now why were the relay stations bad places?” They were just out in the boonies. We had no support out there. Just a small team on top of a mountain that would relay radio signals. Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, so there wasn’t a whole lot of room to land or anything?” There wasn’t a whole lot of room to land, and there’s a lot of really bad guys there. And we didn’t like to go but once if we had to. Just drop one load off instead of going back a second time. Interviewer: “Yeah, but there were things that they needed a Chinook for instead of Hueys?” Well, yeah, because we could get so much more in. So much quickly. (30:01) I mean, I don’t know how much a Huey can sling load, but, you know, we could carry sixteen thousand pounds. That’s a lot. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when the weather was okay, how much flying would you do in a day?” I’d say, on average, ten hours a day when the weather was good. I had one day I flew twentyseven straight hours. Interviewer: “All right. How long typically does a mission take?” �Mackey, Michael We broke—Our missions were funny. We had sorties. We’d get a sheet every morning that told us how many sorties we’d got. We’ve got to pick this thing up here. Take it here. That’s a mission. Pick this up here. Take it here. That’s a mission. Probably a hundred if you counted them that way. A hundred missions a day. Interviewer: “Okay, because there’s the different stops that you’re making.” Different—Yeah, just—Everything’s a mission. Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, so you’re within a relatively defined geographical area.” Absolutely. We’d know—After you’d been there three months, you know every hilltop, every grid square, everything. I mean, it’s just in your head. You don’t have a—We didn’t even have a map. Interviewer: “Okay. Now to what extent did the latter part of Ripcord kind of stand out in your experience?” Terror. Just pure—Scared every time we had to go in there. Interviewer: “Yeah. Did it get bad in terms of starting to take fire before the siege started, or is it really at the beginning of July when things get ugly?” Well, even really before that we took fire just about every time we went to Ripcord. We’d alter our routes in and out and airspeed and altitudes and the way we came in, just trying to confuse people. We got to the point we were doing what we call a high overhead approach. You’d fly over Ripcord at fifteen hundred feet over it, and you’d start a standard rate turn, either right or left. It didn’t matter. And start a descent of fifteen hundred feet a minute, and you’d do a 360 right over the top of the firebase. And when you finish the 360, you’re just about where you wanted to be. And just get the load and went. (32:05) Interviewer: “All right, and would you actually land on the firebase, or would you just unhook the load and…?” No. The load would hit the ground, we’d punch it off, and back up in the air. Interviewer: “All right. Now what were the biggest dangers there?” Rockets and mortars because they would hit the pad quite frequently. Actually, sometimes quad 50 machine guns. Quad-51s. Interviewer: “They had those?” Oh, yeah. �Mackey, Michael Interviewer: “Because I knew they had the .51 caliber anti-aircraft guns, but I didn’t realize they had the quads.” They had the quad 50s. Quad-51s. I’m sorry. Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, because the Americans had quad 50s.” Yeah. Interviewer: “But—Yeah, and then did they have heavier anti-aircraft guns, too?” They did, but I’m not sure they were around Ripcord. They had 37 mm’s and 40 mm’s, but I don’t remember them being around Ripcord with them. They could have been. I just don’t remember. Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, I think it was also like a 14.7 mm machine gun, so they had the equivalent of a .50-cal.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, so I guess that’s the—” A 51. Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s 51. Okay, so you’ve got those. All right. Yeah, and were there altitudes or levels where you could fly that was—Would you just get high enough they couldn’t hit you, or...? No. No, you could stay out of small arms fire. Fifteen hundred feet’s what they figured, but—So a 51 can reach out and get you. A 37, a 40. So yeah, I mean, you weren’t ever really out of the range of stuff. Interviewer: “All right. Now as they got toward the end, I mean, you had a Chinook from another unit actually crash on the base on the eighteenth of July. How did you hear about that, or what did you learn about it?” I was right in front of him. Interviewer: “Okay, so what did you do that day, or…?” We had shot an approach on Ripcord, and the pathfinder had told us—We always called a pathfinder. Get a situation report. Is the LZ hot, or—Of course, they say no whether it is or not because they want the stuff. So I went in, and I dropped my load off. And I took some 51 fire going in. And I came out the other side, and I heard the Pachyderm bird calling that he was coming into Ripcord. The pathfinder told him the same thing—that it was not hot—and I went up on my VHF—on their VHF frequency, and I told them, “I just left there, and I did take some �Mackey, Michael fire going in.” And he went on anyway. Well, we all would’ve done it anyway. It’s no big deal. (34:11) But he got shot down. So that’s how I knew about that one. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, and then that—basically that crashed on top of the [?] bunker, and the whole 105 mm battery kind of went up.” That’s the day I flew twenty-seven straight hours. Interviewer: “Okay, so what were the—What were your other missions now? Once that happened, what were you doing?” Resupplying all the firebases around Ripcord to support them because they had no way to fire anymore, and they were just kind of a sitting duck. So all—I remember Gladiator and Henderson, I think, were two of the ones that we resupplied all night long. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. All right, and then, of course, a few days later they give up, and they decide to evacuate the firebase. So what do you recall about that?” Yeah. I’m getting short then. I don’t have much time left in country, and I’m really not supposed to be flying anymore because about the last thirty days we just would fly bus runs and easy missions that weren’t dangerous so that we could get home. And they were short of aircraft commanders, and I remember them telling me I was going to have to fly again. And I remember the briefing that evening and them telling us what we’re going to do. And it was—It was pretty scary. Interviewer: “So what happens to you?” We went in—I forget what number ship I was—and to pick up a 155 Howitzer and evacuate it. I was either three or five. Somewhere in the middle. There were like—I don’t want to say seventeen, eighteen. I don’t remember how many ships there were, but I was in the middle sort of. I went in there, and I remember—Just as I settled over the load, I remember three explosions right in front of me, and then the gun or the crew chief said they were three right behind us, which they’ve got you bracketed. And just as I picked the load up and pulled off, they said three came right down where we were. (36:06) And I smoked back then, and I think I smoked a pack of cigarettes in fifteen minutes. And that was my last official flight in Vietnam other than I might have flown a bus run to a hangar or something after that but nothing dangerous after that. Interviewer: “All right. Now when you got to Vietnam, was your father still there?” No, because it had worked out with a transition and everything. I was going over as he was coming back. And then as I was coming back, my brother was going over. Interviewer: “All right. Now you’re coming back at this point. How much time do you have left on your enlistment?” I have—I took a direct commission, so I have probably two years. �Mackey, Michael Interviewer: “Okay, so at what point did you get the direct commission?” I got it in Vietnam about mid-tour. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now you’re a commissioned officer. So you moved up to the next level.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then when you come back, where do they send you next?” Fort Rucker, Alabama. Interviewer: “Okay, and what do you—Now you had mentioned getting armor training at some point.” Oh, yeah, I went through the armor basic course en route to Fort Rucker. Interviewer: “Okay, so why were they having you do that?” I was an armor—They gave me a commission in armor, which is tanks. So my thinking—I didn’t have to go to that. I requested it because I figured if I was going to stay in, I needed to have that because Vietnam was ending. They’re going to have a big reduction in force. I knew that. And I figured that if I wasn’t at least basic course qualified in armor, I would get rifted, which is, a reduction, of course, and removed from the service. So I did that and went to that first. Interviewer: “Okay, so what did you actually do during those two months?” (38:06) You learned to be a tanker, which was interesting, and it was very cold. This was—I don’t know what—Maybe it was September, October. Interviewer: “Was that at Fort Knox?” Yeah, Fort Knox, Kentucky, and it was—With the wind chill—And we played night defensive position and in tanks. Tanks didn’t have heaters, and it was like minus twelve degrees with the wind chill. And I’d just got back from Vietnam and 120 degrees or whatever it was. I about froze to death. But the tanks were fun. The tanks were a lot of fun. I was amazed with their accuracy. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of tanks were you in?” A M60. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, those ones were kind of too big for Vietnam.” �Mackey, Michael Yeah. Well, yeah, they were too big for Vietnam, and they were kind of too outdated for nowadays. But they were still fun. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but did you do that just because you had to have a specialization as an army officer, or…?” Yes, it was pretty much that because the reason that they gave warrant officers direct commissions was because the people with the branches in the department of the army knew there was a reduction of force coming. And they wanted to keep their branch qualified people. So if they gave warrant officers a bunch of direct commissions, when the quota came down, they’d rift them. Interviewer: “All right, but while you train in armor, they don’t assign you to armor. They send you to Fort Rucker. You’re back with aviation. Okay, and what’s your first job at Fort Rucker?” First job at Fort Rucker is the S1 of the Student Aviation Battalion. Student Aviation Battalion is the battalion that trains all the student aviators. Warrant officers, candidates, and officers are all under Sixth Battalion. Interviewer: “Okay, and were you doing actual training or just administrative work?” (40:01) Administrative work. I was an admin. Pencil pusher. Interviewer: “All right, and did you like that job, or did you want to get out of it?” I liked it pretty good. Yeah, except we had to go to every graduation party, and it just got to be— Every week I was going to two or three parties. Interviewer: “Did you still get to fly at all?” Yeah. You still have to fly. You have to maintain—I think it was eighty hours a year to maintain your qualifications. Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you do that?” I was probably doing that for a year. Little over a year. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you get a new assignment after that?” Yeah, Army Community Services. I was the Army Emergency Relief officer. Interviewer: “What do they do?” �Mackey, Michael It’s like a loan or a grant company for GIs who are in financial trouble, and I make the determination whether they get the money or not. And back in that time frame it was pretty important because nobody got paid anything. It was just a struggle for enlisted people to—just to survive. And so—And we were kind of a direct liaison between Fort Rucker and the communities around there, which was also pretty important at that time. Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, so what groups or institutions in the community did you deal with?” I just dealt primarily with the military part of it. We had other sections that dealt with the community. But I actually didn’t have to wear a uniform. I wore a coat and tie to this job. And occasionally I had to do a briefing for incoming wives or something to tell them what was available on a post. Things like that. And we worked directly for the post commander. Two star general. Interviewer: “Okay, okay. All right. Now did you live on the base or off the base?” Off. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have a family at this point, or were you still single?” Yeah, I had a wife and a little daughter. (42:01) Interviewer: “All right. Now somewhere along the line you had reenlisted? Or did that come along with becoming the officer? You just had to extend, or…?” No. No, what happens with the army back then was when you first take commission, you have a certain obligation that you promise to fulfill. But you can make an agreement with the army. It’s called a voluntary indefinite, which—I volunteer to stay as long as I want to, and you volunteer to keep me as long as you want to. So I can stay basically until they decide they don’t want me anymore or I don’t want to be there. So that’s what I was. Voluntary indefinite. Interviewer: “All right, and so how was it that you wound up leaving the army?” I got tired of it. They—I forget what year they changed to the—They call it the volunteer army. Interviewer: “About ‘73, ‘74.” Yeah, somewhere in the mid ‘70s. Somewhere around there. And they just started getting some really, really bad people. They were taking anybody. And then I also came down on orders to Germany. Took me out of aviation and put me in a tank company in Germany, which is—even for experienced armor officers—is a killing ground. I mean, they just chew you up, spit you out, and— Interviewer: “Why was that bad?” �Mackey, Michael Well, they put you in the field, and so many of those guys that were—They got relieved out there of their commands in armor. And plus, I didn’t want to be in—I wanted to fly. I didn’t want to ride around the tank in the cold. So I had to make a decision. I’d been in close to nine years, and I felt in my head if I stayed ten, I had to stay the other ten, which is maybe stupid. But I still thought that, so I just quit. Interviewer: “Okay, so the—You know, there’s a, you know, fair amount out there about sort of the decline in morale in parts of the military and stuff after Vietnam or at the end and sometimes problems with the all-volunteer army. You know, but sometimes, I mean, aviation units might at least still get better people than other places. But was it still a—But you were even seeing that in your area?” Yeah, even in aviation it was starting to get that way. (44:22) My last year in the army I was in a medevac company. Medevac detachment. And we had a Medical Service Corps major that liked to go out in the desert in El Paso and play army. And we had an active mission. We had MAST, which was Military Assistance to Field Unit Traffic—I think what’s they called it—where we supported the civilian community as well as military. So we would have a first up where you slept on the airfield, and if a mission came up, you had to go out on it. And we had a second up that would go in and fill in for the first up if he went up. So you’d have first up, second up, and then a day off basically. And this major liked to take us all out in the field for a week. And we’d go out and set a tent up, and about two o'clock in the morning, he’d wake us up and tell us to pack up. And we’re going to move and set up camp somewhere else. And we did that, and I just… Interviewer: “It got a little—Okay. Couple of other kind of general Vietnam questions. There’s a lot of stereotypes about what went on in Vietnam and so forth we kind of take for granted, and one of them has to do with drug use. Did you see any evidence of that while you were over there?” Very little. Aviation units—We didn’t—There was some marijuana smoking. I’m sure of that, but other than that, no, we didn’t really—We didn’t really see it. Interviewer: “Yeah, and another one has to do with race relations.” Saw that, saw that. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did that play out with what you saw?” (46:02) Well, we had a lot of—In 101st, we had a lot of fraggings. They had little, outdoor movie theaters back at the base camps where you’d—Guys could set up—watch a movie. There were people rolling hand grenades down there fragging people. I actually had—Officer of the guard— One night—It was either New Year’s Eve or Fourth of July or something, and the lieutenant that ran the perimeter told me—said, “Now at midnight I don’t want anybody shooting off star clusters or anything, and if they do, I want you to go take care of it.” Well, about midnight this Duster—40 mm track vehicle—started shooting off star clusters. So I went over there like I was told. And I was beating on the back of this thing, and he finally lowered the ramp. But smoke— �Mackey, Michael marijuana smoke—came out like crazy. And these two black guys came out and locked and loaded their M16s, and I said—I don’t remember—something to the effect of, “This is Lieutenant Mackey, and you need to not be firing them star clusters. And they said, “Lieutenant, you better find your ass away from here.” And that’s what I did. Too many officers died of friendly fire. I didn’t want to be one of them. Interviewer: “All right, but, I guess, for the most part, your—the aviation unit itself didn’t have that sort of issue.” No, no. No, we didn’t—We didn’t have—I don’t remember that we had too many black people, but any of them that we had were—There was no problem. We never had any kind of a— incidents. Interviewer: “Yeah. There were other guys who were sent to the rear from other places.” Yeah, the—Usually, the people on the perimeter were the dregs that other companies didn’t want. They’d just send them out there, so you’re dealing with bad people, both black and white. But it didn’t matter. Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Now once you leave the army, now what do you do?” (48:04) Let’s see. I opened an Indian jewelry company with my roommate who was a West Point graduate. We did that for a while and part-time I was working security for Concerts West. I ran security for them in El Paso for rock concerts. And then I got in the car business, and that’s where I stayed for many more years. Interviewer: “Yeah. How did you wind up in El Paso?” Fort Bliss, Texas is where I got out, and that’s El Paso, so… Interviewer: “Oh, okay, so after Fort Rucker, you’re in Fort Bliss.” Yeah, I went to—Well, I went to Korea. I didn’t—We didn’t get to that part yet. Interviewer: “Korea! Yes, tell me about Korea. You hadn’t mentioned Korea before.” Well, I went from Fort Rucker to Korea. And I liked Korea. Interviewer: “Okay, okay. What was you job there?” I was the operations officer for a Chinook company. Interviewer: “Okay, and where were they based?” In Camp Humphreys. �Mackey, Michael Interviewer: “Okay, which is near anything in Korea? Was it near the DMZ, or…?” Anjeong-ri. Or Osan’s close by. Pyongtaek. Interviewer: “Okay. How far were you from the DMZ?” Probably seventy miles, eighty miles. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re someplace south of that.” Yeah, yeah, I’m not on DMZ. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, all right. Yeah, and so how are you spending your time there?” Badly. Interviewer: “Okay, so there wasn’t a whole lot of stress there at that point, or…?” No, there was no stress. I was just behaving badly. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. How long were you there?” A year. Interviewer: “Okay, so when was that?” ‘73 to seventy—No, ‘72 to ‘73. I’m sorry. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you tried on some different places at different points. In Germany and Korea and so forth and in Texas. Okay, so the last assignment was in El Paso. Yeah, and so that’s when you were doing all of that with the medevac—” Yeah, in El Paso. Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, so the car business. All right, so as car dealer, seller, repairer…?” (50:12) Seller for several years. I did several different things in the car business. I was a used car manager, finance manager. I owned my own little car lot for a while. I was a wholesale manager for a large multi-dealership. Multi-franchise dealership. Interviewer: “Okay, and how do you wind up in South Carolina?” I left El Paso. I partied a lot in El Paso. And I don’t if that was from Vietnam or not, but I was having fun, I thought. There’s a bar I used to go in all the time that Bandidos bikers used to hang �Mackey, Michael out in, and I knew most of them. We were fine. But one of them I didn’t like, and he didn’t like me. And one night we—He had a lot too much to drink, and I had maybe too much to drink. And he came around threatening people at the bar, and I decided when he got to me, I was going to hit him with a long neck Bud. And I did. Well, the next day one of my other friends in the Bandidos told me I better get out of town because he planned to kill me. So I left. I mean—And it just so happened I had a friend who had a friend who was the ferrying aircraft for a living, and he was ferrying one to Myrtle Beach from El Paso. And I told him, “Well, I’ll fly co-pilot for you and help you fly and navigate.” And he said, “Fine. Come on.” And he dropped me off in Columbia, and that’s how I got back there. Interviewer: “Okay, okay. All right, so what year was that?” That was 1980. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and so what kind of career then did you have after that, or did you stay with cars, or…?” Yes, sadly. Interviewer: “All right, so how do you think they—You suggested a little bit. Do you think—I mean, have you been diagnosed with PTSD or anything like that?” Oh, yeah. Interviewer: “And when did you kind of…” Find that out? Interviewer: “Find that out. Yeah.” (52:01) I actually—I’d never—I didn’t know the VA could do anything for us because they never told us anything. That we could look for help. Well, one day I had a—I forget what—Back of my hand I had something just start popping open. It scared me. I thought it was skin cancer, and it turned out to be that. But it was not a bad one. And I had no insurance. I didn’t know what the hell I was going to do, so I figured I might as well go to the VA and see if they can help me. And I go out there, and I get a very nice, old doctor. And he told me all the things that they could do for me. He looked at that, and he set me up with the cancer people and set me up with a psychiatric evaluation or something where I went and I actually talked to a lieutenant colonel in the army who had been—Prior service in—Oh, he was a lieutenant colonel in the army with prior service in the Marine Corps as a machine gunner in Vietnam. So I was talking to him. Just—We were having a discussion, and he was asking me questions. Kind of like you asking me questions. And he said, “You know, you have PTSD.” And I said, “No, I don’t.” And he said, “Yeah, you do.” I said, “No, I don’t.” So they set me up with a shrink, and I went to this shrink for—VA shrink for probably ten years. And she finally just wrote a letter and said, “Yeah, you’re screwed up.” But I don’t know. I guess they based a lot of—I changed. I must have worked for thirty different people after I got out of the military. I just was everywhere. Somebody pissed me off, I quit. I �Mackey, Michael didn’t care if I was making a hundred grand a year, I’m not going to—If I think I’m right, I’m going to leave. Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Now did any of the therapy or anything like that eventually, you know, help you get control of stuff or cope with things better, or…?” Maybe a little. I think talking to her helped a little bit, but—And just, I guess, maybe acknowledging the fact that maybe I did because I really didn’t believe I did. I mean, I just— Interviewer: “Well, there’s different kinds. I mean, there’s the reflex stuff where you respond to noises or you don’t want to—You always want to have your back to a wall and know where the door is. There’s those kinds of things. And then there’s just other things that are more a question of the moral injury or just the feelings about what you saw and went through and things like that. They work in a lot of different ways.” (54:17) Yeah. Yeah, I used to have bad nightmares. I mean—And it wasn’t—I feel guilty about having them because the guys that are actually here—They were on the ground here, and I just—I’m in awe of them. I mean, I’m just in total awe. I couldn’t have done what they did. No kind of way. Interviewer: “Hard to tell until you’re in it as far as I can tell.” Well, maybe that’s true, but man, they—I almost sometimes feel guilty about being here. Interviewer: “Well, I don’t think they’d agree with you.” That’s what they keep telling me. Interviewer: “You had a job to do, and so did they. And yours at times was really dangerous and really scary. You just got to sleep in better conditions than they did.” Right, and I can run away faster. Interviewer: “Yeah.” But yeah, I—I just—And coming to these has been very helpful. I go to Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association reunions. It’s not the same as talking to these guys. I’d rather talk to these guys because I know what the helicopter pilots went through because I was there. But to talk to the guys who were down there, who were supporting, it’s much more interesting. Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, well, this actually—I think actually this is a good place probably to kind of close out, and I just want to say thank you for taking the time to talk to me today.” Great. I enjoyed it. (55:31) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_MackeyM2283V Title A name given to the resource Mackey, Michael (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-03 Description An account of the resource Michael Mackey was born in Crawfordsville, Indiana in 1948. Mackey graduated high school in 1966 and began working for a sign company when he recieved his draft notice. Taking his father's advice, he visited an Army recruiter and agreed to a delayed entry into the Army's flight school. He attended Basic Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, before reporting to Fort Wolters, Texas, for primary flight school and training as a Warrant Officer as well as Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia, where he learned to fly Huey helicopters. Mackey was then deployed to Würzburg, Germany, before volunteering to be sent to Vietnam in 1969 where he was attached to Charlie Company, 159th Assault Support Helicopter Battalion, 101st Airborne. His unit participated in the siege on Firebase Ripcord before ending his tour in Vietnam and attending a Basic Armor course in Fort Knox, Kentucky. Afterwards, he became an S1 of the Student Aviation Battalion and then acquired a job as an Army Emergency Relief officer for Army Community Services. Mackey also saw service in Korea as an Operations Officer, Germany as a member of a tank company, and at Fort Bliss in El Paso, Texas, as part of a medevac company. After nine years in the service, Mackey was finally discharged from the Army. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mackey, Michael A. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3869b733694d40a0b6c251ac79cd7773.mp4 e235725271f014e1c927bf18cbe5d56b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fe66d700ceac496d0be3fb92ed278f57.pdf cc086eb728147f4e02bcc378ecb15ba6 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: John MacTavish Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 3 [Barbara] …saying is, the conclusion to be drawn, it seems as though one keeps on with the Geology lectures of three hundred and fifty students and a true/false exam, when you close these places down and there's no discussion. [MacTavish] But that's where the college makes its money. You stick three thousand students in the classroom and fill… and then spend the time with the teaching assistants. That's where they make their money. [Unidentified] Sit up so he doesn't [inaudible]. [Barbara] Yes, dear. What can we learn from the James thing though? I mean, it's like it's closed so it never existed. [MacTavish] Okay. James got more of a chance than almost any of the other colleges that I can think of, with some possible exceptions on the west coast. In the sense that we really were given a budget, we were really were cut free to make our own mistakes, we were given a considerable amount of support administratively, but we never reached a point where we were an equal amongst equals in terms of faculty perception of faculty, in terms of student perception of student, in terms of administrative perception of the unit. We never reached that original ideal of Grand Valley, of having a group of equal colleges. Thomas Jefferson, in a way, unfortunately started that by having their problems with courses in Zen Buddhism that started a wall and that kind of thing. And so, we were constantly fighting man image. At the same time, the easy way to fight that image is to show that we're like CAS which we weren't also. And so we ran around in circles fighting that image. I think that one possibility, as I mentioned, was that maybe permanent appointments aren't the answer. But as soon as I say that I think about certain faculty members that are still at the college that still could be in that kind of a setting and probably would prefer to be in the kind of a setting. And maybe on a permanent basis. Because if you think about it in terms of short-term appointments, you're saying things like: "Well, I'll take three years off of my life's work and I'll play in this college." And that doesn't accomplish what you want to do either. So, I think what you have to have is a setting in which you are an equal amongst equals. And given that then it's the game of equal but separate. The South played it the South Africans play it. And it's extremely difficult to be honest about. It might be that you can't do that and have the two units side by side or commingle. It may be that you have to have a separate campus. Because the �perception is always that's the way we grew up, that's the kind of educational system we went through, that's the kind we trained. And what we want to do is not a rebellion from that but is something different from that. And it's looked at as either a rebellion or playing around. [MacTavish] Eventually you will come back to the fold and he will teach your five hundred student lecture class, and you'll have your laboratory spread over the week, and you will do your twelve hours in committee assignment, and you will be available to answer students questions in office hours, and you go home and sail your boat or whatever. Treat it as a job, and that's not what people wanted to do. Unfortunately, the one that's the best, that is a person that commits themselves so totally, that they screw up the rest of their lives. [Barbara] Do you value your experience at James? [MacTavish] Oh, definitely. [Barbara] Why? Because, again, it sounds so crazy when you talk about it. [MacTavish] Well, it is crazy, but it's crazy in the same way that a lot of endeavors are started. It doesn't matter whether it's a marriage, or whether it's starting a business, (which I've also done) or starting college, or whatever. You have a tremendous flush of excitement at the beginning, you don't care that you're working eighty or ninety hours a week. But that's a pace you can't maintain and to shift to a maintainable pace is extremely difficult. And still keep the intensity of feeling and the intensity of dedication to an ideal or set of ideals, that's extremely difficult to do. Doesn't matter whether it's a marriage, or job, or whatever. [Barbara] I really only have two things in mind and there both really short. One is that I just remembered you told me in the halls, or some place, sitting there with applications or something. [MacTavish] Oh in the first year there were only… started out with about five faculty members. The Dean was Ken Venderbush, and he was also the Dean of Students. And that meant he had a full-time job as Dean of Students, but he was also assigned halftime as our [?] and he has no real commitment to us. So, what he would do is he would work his regular job and then he would come over to his office at William James, which would be 4:00 or 4:30 or 5:00 or 5:30 in the afternoon and that would be the only time we'd see him. He was also dying of a brain tumor at the time, which we didn't-- no one knew about. But what it meant was that Jenny Gordon, as his secretary, and the person who ran the office, and myself, who was some kind of an administrative assistant without title or pay or anything like that, end up making the decisions that ran the college on a daily basis. So, Jenny and I would sit down and do the things that a Dean, or an Assistant Dean, or �Administrative Assistant, whatever, would do. And that's how the college ran that first year. And other people jumped in and did their thing, and we just got it together. [Barbara] Did you guys read James? [MacTavish] No. [Barbara] Because it's remarkable, neither did I. I'm just reading him now. How remarkably the college echoes what you can read in James. [MacTavish] Some of the faculty members did, and some of the members of the committee did. And that translated itself through hundreds of hours of conversation. I read selected parts of James, but I can't say I sat down and read the whole book. Or you know we got stacks of books from James; everybody got their little package of little red books. And some us read the appropriate parts, some of us just participated in that first seminar on James. And some of the stuff that came out in the first semester was stuff that we weren't interested in. James wasn't going to be that way. William James College wasn't going to be that way. And so, what happened was the people that were really interested in the philosophy sat down in group meetings with us and your discussions, cocktail parties, dinner meetings, whatever, and just translated what they had read the into a living reality and then we argued back and forth about it and it worked out to be James. [Barbara] I do have one more. I remember we were both on SPACK. Do you remember SPACK? [MacTavish] S-P, ah, yes-yes-yes. I can't remember what it stood for, but I remember SPACK. [Barbara] No, I can't remember what it stood for either. But I remember we had terrible, terrible arguments. I don't mean you, and I mean SPACK there were terrible arguments. Can you remember back then and translate what kind of frustration went on then? Because I think it’s a key in a very pragmatic way to some of the tensions. [MacTavish] Well, when we got larger – second, or third, or fourth year – to the point we have double a couple times and we were up to fifteen or twenty faculty members, the faculty couldn't hold the tight cohesiveness anymore. And that's when we got into terrible arguments about grading. I can remember… what was his name? T.C.? The student that stood up and was hollering in one of those group meetings. And the tension was… you could feel it. I ended up in the hospital that day. It turned out to be hypertension attack, the only time in my life I've ever had any problems like that. They hauled me off in an ambulance. But it was so vivid, and the commitment was so close to the surface, and the people were so fervent about �their personal beliefs, and they were dumping them right out there on table. [MacTavish] About how you grade, about how you conduct a classroom, about what William James should be. And the students were right in there along with everyone else, they were considered as much a member of the community as anybody. And it got fairly vicious at times because groups tended to appear. I know when we were down to the wire on faculty, on choosing team, I think it boiled down to Ken Venderbush and Adrian. And there were some terrible arguments because of perceived differences in philosophy and differences in administrative style, administrative experience, et cetera that we went around, and round, and round, and they were not situations where people were pulling any punches. We were expected to say what we meant, we were expected to participate, and we were expected not to hold a grudge. You know, we were being honest. And it is very difficult to be honest for years, and years, and years. But we were. [Barbara] Herb, do you have any questions? [Herb] That was a great ending. [Barbara] I know. Is there something else you want to talk about? [MacTavish] Oh jeez. Not really, I'll probably think of something tomorrow. [Barbara] Well, I always think of something the next day. I was like, "why didn't I ask him?" – you know? Because we got more tape. It's in there. [MacTavish] Oh. We played all kinds of games; I don't know whether it's important or not. But when that college- that building was originally designed, it was designed with four suites of offices. And each one of those suites contained six offices. [Barbara] Just start there [Inaudible]. [MacTavish] Oh. Six offices and the administrative area, the secretarial area. And if you think back about those offices, every one of those offices is different. One has two windows, one is big with one window, and there's a couple of real small ones with no windows, and so forth. They were designed that way by Mr. George Potter, who was a system president, vice president, and then finally, interim president for a year, so the faculty could have something to fight over. And they did, and we did. And it got to the point, at one point, where we made a policy where everybody had to move every year. After a while I got nuts, but it was an attempt to break that, another attempt, to break that hierarchy of top faculty, middle faculty, and low faculty. The beginners always got that little windowless office the first year and then I got to move around and move up. We even went around one year and painted the whole inside the building. �[MacTavish] I remember one faculty member put up a picture of the of head Gandhi right outside of his office on the wall, so he could look out the office to see Gandhi's head. Another faculty put a little person with a wood screw his navel and the students put pictures on the wall. And some of it was very, very good. And that led to bring in a commercial artist, who did superb graphics on all the walls with the students. And that was one of those builders of community that we worked very hard to find builders of community. The original synaptic programs, the Piaget program where this little naive college, in what, its second year, or whatever, pulled off the world Piaget conference. You know, we didn't… we're like the G.E. engineer who didn't know it wasn't possible to frost inside of a light bulb. You know we just went up and did it. And there was a lot of those kinds of things that happened that'll never leaving because I don't even always remember, neither do the other guys, unless they sit around and have a beer and reminisce, which almost never happens anymore. Aren't many of us left in this area. That's the only thing I could think of off the top of my head. [Barbara] That's really great because we have… I'm almost sure we can get illustrated stuff for the painting. [MacTavish] Yeah. [Barbara] And I have a painting. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_20_MacTavish Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource MacTavish, John Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource John MacTavish interview (1 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with John MacTavish by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. John MacTavish was faculty member of GVSC who was hired to teach Geology courses in 1968 and later transitioned to planning and teaching for William James College beginning in 1971. In this interview, John discusses the lessons learned from William James College, how he valued being a part of the experience, and his earliest memories of the college. This interview is part 1 of 3 for John MacTavish. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01e89ad315320de66a14d3ab7ce8ccf8.mp4 f646366da7233fb969677d7ef1cf1106 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7f5957baa0b1c87f9dc89042d6abb881.pdf 16b12a1c292c0a5984c9f27d754f0de2 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: John MacTavish Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 3 [Barbara] Are you rolling? [MacTavish] Yeah. [Barbara] Steven? [MacTavish] Yeah. [Barbara] Why don't you tell me about other, you know, what you know about…? [MacTavish] Well, I personally went to two or three conferences, but we were so busy doing things and we had so much to do that we didn't, at least, I didn't go to very many. I remember the Redlands conference. People were talking about their experimental program here or their experimental program there. And frequently it was just a few students inside of a department that were trying things; there were almost no one out there doing what we were doing. And the people, frankly, found it unbelievable that we were able to do this because that was even beyond what they were fantasizing being able to do: to have the backing of a college behind you to turn you relatively loose. And I can remember when the plan for William James was approved by the faculty council. The thing that put it over the back, over the top, was I think it was Dewey Heininga [?] that stood up and said, "there's a time when you have to cut the child free and let them do it," or words to that effect, because the faculty were wanting to put all kinds of strings and "we'll check on them next year and kill them if they don't do well" and this kind of thing. And I believe it was Dewey [?] that finally stood up and said, "We've got to give them a chance. We've got to let them do their thing and we've got to not have control over them." And that was almost the last thing that was said before it was okayed as a separate academic unit, but we were spending so much time actually doing what other people wanted to fantasize about that we didn't have time to go around and tell people what we were doing. Although the word did get out and it never ceases to amaze me the way that students found us, similar to the ways they found Thomas Jefferson, because somehow there was a student connection out there with high schools and so forth that I never knew about when I was a high school. Of course, I don't think anything like that existed back in the '50s when I was in high school. If it had I wouldn't have noticed. �[Barbara] John, but that didn't go on because our enrollment was down. [MacTavish] That's true. And I honestly don't remember why that happened. Eventually, we got up to over seven hundred and then they started back down again. And I think that at the point when you're seven hundred, then you're dealing with an institutional size that we didn't have in the beginning. And I'm not blaming the decline on that. It could easily have been economic. It could have been changes in the general cultural pattern in the United States. It could have been a lot of things. The '60s were gone, but it also could have been the fact that William James was at that point starting to be a large, standard type of institution, even though we did an awful lot of things that weren't. But there ends up being a level of bureaucracy that is necessarily just to function that the students were arguing with, participating in, and fighting against all at the same time. And I honestly don't know why they started back down. A lot of the faculty were starting to reevaluate their time commitments. I know I did. Some of our best faculty left. Well, if I name names, they all think those are the best and the others aren't. But we did have a fairly high faculty turnover. Eventually, people started hiring faculty for different reasons than they were originally hired in the beginning. They were hiring people to fill out levels of... or areas of expertise. They were hiring a person because he happened to fit as an intern specialist, or we needed a biologist. And the primary concern was a concern different from the original. Sure, in the beginning we needed a writer, and we needed a scientist and we needed a sociologist and a psychologist and so forth. But people were looked at as much for their secondary and tertiary interests as they were for their original interests because we knew that people had to be eclectic, broadly interesting, broadly interested. The person that you could describe as a graduate school teacher in a discipline spending eighty hours a week in the laboratory studyingI'll pick Paschke's rats as an example because Paschke doesn't fit the mold, but they spend their life studying the behavior patterns of rats. That isn't the kind of faculty member we needed in William James. We needed somebody who if he's a geologist, he's willing to tackle Piaget. If he's a writer, he's willing to try and analyze wines or the scientific basis for the difference in the way wine plants grow. And so, he ends up studying geography for a term. We needed people with the kind of interest and nerve to leave their disciplines. And that was phrase keys for me. One of our big problems is a lot of people felt like they were leaving their discipline when they came to William James. I did as an invertebrate paleontologist. I haven't done a whole lot since I joined William James and the rest of the academic world labeled you when you did that because those were lost years, if you tried to come back. Dick Paschke is one of the few people that were able to not have that happen to him, but many of the rest of us had that happen to us. In some ways, it's good; in some ways, it's bad. I don't think I ever want to go back to being a paleontologist again. On the other hand, I spent fifteen years of my life learning to be one, but it gave me and got me where I wanted to be at that time. And that got me somewhere else and so forth down �the road. Where do we go from here? [Barbara] Let's stop for one second. [Inaudible] [MacTavish] We looked for people that were compatible with ourselves and with what we thought William James should be. And that includes not just me who hired on, but that includes the Dan Clocks and the Woodys and the rest of the people on that committee. The Will Walkos, who knew he wasn't going to be in William James and wasn't for years, and then situations changed, and he came over. But we look for people who had what we thought William James needed in terms of educational philosophy and outlook. [Barbara] It's real hard to pin this down in my mind. I keep thinking, you're just not telling me what this magic thing was that made everyone understand what you were aiming for. [MacTavish] No, we did not analyze what we were looking for and we did not- Well, let me say it two ways. We did not sit down and say, "This is the kind of psychological profile we want. This is the kind of credentials we want." In fact, there was a move at one point to kind of look past credentials once a minimum level was established. We did, however, spend long hours haranguing each other with why we're interested in this person or this type of person. And when you spend thirty or forty hours a week, in addition to your regular job, discussing who you should hire, you tend to, as a group, reach a consensus. And they were consensus decisions. We didn't try to say we have to have a person with this particular leaning. We have to have a position for so-and-so. We tried to fight that. In fact, we wanted synoptic positions and everything. But we did look for educational philosophies and we didn't spell out in advance, "This is the cardinal philosophy." Mayberry has his cardinal philosophy; Zapp had his cardinal philosophy; I had my cardinal philosophy. And in a way, they were all the same with different edges and then in another way, they were all different, but the edges overlapped. So that we could out of the five or six thousand applications, we could find six or eight that made sense for everybody. [Barbara] You know, that's kind of hard to imagine. [MacTavish] Well, I think it was in the sense that there was a magic there. There was a feeling amongst this group that never knew each other before; in a period of two weeks, we were old friends. [Barbara] This is the committee? [MacTavish] No, this is the original faculty. The committee was never a group of old friends, but that's another story. The orientation occurred and the faculty started, and we �spent so much- we lived together. I mean, our wives saw less of us than [Inaudible] [Barbara] Really explain- Oh, I know it's about money. They didn't see why the hell you should come here when the money was so low. [MacTavish] Well, that was another thing William James did is they took away all the rewards for teaching. They took away the merit pay. They took away the titles. They took away everything. And the only reward you got was internal. Well, that's fine for a few people, but not for a lot of people. And people tended to grump after a while, even though they participated in the original decision to do that. We took away all the external rewards, which is not good, I don't think. [Barbara] But it's like what we did with the students. We said, "We're not going to reward you with an 'A.' We're going to reward you with an internal accomplishment." It's going to be pure. [MacTavish] Yeah, it's going to be pure. Well, pure works in the Land of Oz, but it doesn't always work in real life because there are so many other pressures involved. When you go to a professional meeting, you say, "Oh, I'm a member of the faculty." Everybody else says, "I'm associate professor, full professor, assistant professor, instructor." And there's some kind of pecking order that's known. When you say you're a member of the faculty, that means you could be anything from a dean on down to undergraduate instructor, you know. [Barbara] Well, what we've gotten into here, and we didn't finish the other thing. I'm asking everyone what critical steps were taken or not taken or what critical weaknesses were there or whatever that contributed to the closing? Surely there was more than one thing that contributed to closing the place down. [MacTavish] Well, I wasn't there for the final closing. I was there for, I guess, what you would call the downhill, at least a large part of it. There were several things, I think, that were involved. And one of them is individual burnout or pullback because of the amount of work involved. Another is the change in the general direction or orientation of the college. It lost a lot of its freewheeling-ness and it became very much more rigid in terms of curriculum, in terms of faculty teaching patterns. We ended up with departments. They were interdisciplinary departments, but there were departments, nonetheless. I think also there were some real political and sociological problems that people experienced in what some people were calling the "Women's Club." We, in some cases, either made offers or hired people. The faculty didn't do it. A certain clique of people did it and they did it on grounds that were not traditional William James grounds. I'd rather not tape some of those things. But Inge got into a lot of trouble in that group setting and some of the other people did, too. I did for a variety of reasons and I don't think that helped �the college at all. Plus, there always was, in the eyes of some of the traditional faculty members on campus, the feeling that faculty members in that college, namely William James, were slumming in some way because they were not disciplinarians in the traditional sense of disciplines. That combined with some initial inabilities in the administrative level. She was learning a lot after she got here and she got much, much better. But for the first few years, she had some problems that tended to contribute to the point where once she was doing a pretty darn good job of it, some people had stopped listening. And there was a general conservativeness that was occurring, especially in this region and then in the college. We never did get to the point where there were a group of equal colleges. And then the fiscal crisis hit the state of Michigan and that was a disaster for William James because the argument was made and very difficult to fight that being a group of colleges was costing us money. What they did is they eliminated all the colleges except the ones that they couldn't get rid of for political reasons like the School of Business, but they kept all the administrators. And if you look at the faculty, if you look at the ratios between students and faculties and secretaries and administrators, you'll see, over a period of years, you'll see that administration level people were being added at a much, much faster rate than everybody else. And when it came to time for cuts, the faculty members were cut disproportionately to the administrators, so that made the ratios even worse. And in addition to that, the faculty members were cut in some cases in ways or places that were political in nature, rather than having to deal with how many students they had and so forth. And I'm not speaking about myself in that situation, although I was one of the ones who was cut. So that there were a bunch of pressures on William James near the end that were political, social, psychological. It was a long story. I don't think the faculty got the break in terms of the break from the heavy workload that they should have gotten to be able to maintain it continuously for years, after years. [Barbara] That's answering the next question I was going to say. I was going to say, the flipside of what I asked you is: in positive terms, what could have been done differently? Looking at this as an experimental school and saying… [Steve] Thirty seconds about until tape end. [Barbara] Alright, well, get the other tape in. Okay. Is there an answer to the positive? � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_21_MacTavish Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource MacTavish, John Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource John MacTavish interview (2 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with John MacTavish by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. John MacTavish was faculty member of GVSC who was hired to teach Geology courses in 1968 and later transitioned to planning and teaching for William James College beginning in 1971. In this interview, John discusses the early days of William James College and its creation, in addition to the sense of "magic" that existed within the community and the critical weaknesses that contributed to the college's eventual decline. This interview is part 2 of 3 for John MacTavish. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Bureaucracy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7c954563d8ded187d4aee8b3c446c8d.mp4 e404facd0ab54ff7b4490f513353eb30 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc4930e3d15733897a6420709300aef8.pdf 6ef9f890f95ae19872c58628c8f7a059 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: John MacTavish Date: 1984 Part: 3 of 3 [Barbara] Why don't you just start by saying how you ever got associated with an alternative college? [MacTavish] I was a junior member of the Geology Department at the College of Arts and Sciences and I was involved in administrative aspects of faculty and faculty life on the campus, and, for whatever reasons, he never told me… the President elected to put me on a committee with nine or ten other people to design a new college. And we spent a year going through the rigmarole of “what's our focus, what's our emphasis, when do we want to start?” All the things that no one ever even conceived would be necessary but had to be gone through. And at the end of that time, we started looking for faculty and I applied, and my application went through along with everybody else's. They interviewed me and I was hired as one of the… I don't know what the word is -- pioneer faculty? And at that point, the next fall we were off and running. [Barbara] I have two questions out of that. One question is: why, how on earth, could it be that only one year is given to planning a college? I mean, it's not like opening a Dairy Queen. [MacTavish] There was some experience on campus for Thomas Jefferson and one of the original scenarios for Grand Valley was a series of Liberal Arts colleges with the maximum size of fifteen hundred students. And the original scenario was all those colleges would be the same and the small size would be what would help the learning in the educational process. When Thomas Jefferson came along it did not fit that mold, but they still wanted to keep one college from dominating the campus and they needed - because of the growth - they needed another college rapidly. We had - I don't remember the exact numbers - but several hundred students immediately and we only had five faculty members, but we were interviewing and hiring as fast as we could. [Barbara] The James philosophy when we got there - which was maybe four years after school started - seemed so clear and so finished. I mean, we were always haggling about it, but it was a clear focus. [Barbara] How do you develop that clear of a… at what point did that clear focus get developed? �[MacTavish] [Laughter] That's your perception maybe, but there wasn't a clear focus in the sense that it was something that was polished and finished and going. It was never finished; it was never polished. [MacTavish] We had - in the very beginning - a lot of arguments over the gross emphasis of the college. Whether it should be a college of sociology. Should it have any science at all? And Will Walco and myself - being the two scientifically oriented members of that committee - were fighting for broad spectrum liberal education. And then the question arose: do you try to include all science? And how do you differentiate yourself from CAS? And there was some nervousness from the College of Arts and Sciences people for fear of competition over students and one of the ways we got around that was to emphasize the environmental emphasis - the environmental approach - to our science. And in fact, at one point they even had an agreement drawn up that William James would do no laboratory science, in effect because that was impinging upon the biologists and chemists and the geologists, and so forth. So, for a long time during that first year, we didn't even know what direction we were going. We landed with the William James philosophy fairly quickly in terms of approach to education, but we didn't know always what we were going to do. Now if you asked me what that approach is, I'll tell you to talk to each individual and he'll give you his ideas because that's how fluid it was. And when we start out with five faculty the first year, and double that the second year, and double it again the third year the philosophy changes every year because we were so democratic it drove us nuts. In fact, there were people pushing for Quaker approach (a hundred percent or nothing). And so, you start with five and end up with twelve months later and it's a totally different philosophy, but not different. It turned out it was a function of the people that were there. [Barbara] How would you characterize the core of what James pretty much was? [Laughter] [MacTavish] [Laughter] We were very naive. We invented the wheel more than once. We tried to set up an educational setting in which the students could learn. We tried to avoid the stereotype college education that we - many of us, most of us - had gone through: a faculty member giving you the rules in front of a thousand students and you giving them back on the exam. We wanted to set up an educational setting where students had a chance to learn, where they had a chance to learn on their own or with somebody, guided by somebody in groups, but in a sense… it's not working right. I'll think of it in a second. [Barbara] Okay, you don't have to hurry. [MacTavish] We wanted the people that were there, in the setting - whether be a classroom or �wherever - to treat themselves as a group of people trying to discover something. The faculty member at times was thought of as the chief learner in a situation where there were a bunch of learners. [MacTavish] We almost got in trouble with that at one point when we had our Piaget conference because the decision was everybody should teach a section of the discussion groups that were associated with the Piaget conference. I taught a section of Piaget. I didn't know anything about the Piaget going in there. I have almost no formal training in psychology or sociology - a little bit of undergraduate stuff in both, but not a whole lot - but the situation was such that we made that fact known. The students signed up for that class, signed up for it knowing that I was learning it the same day or the day before they were learning it - we emphasized that when we started the class. The students wanted that - the ones that sat in in my class - and we had a full classroom of students that were interested in trying to learn about Piaget in that way. It worked. I still have students occasionally, fifteen years later, that I see in the local area, that talk about that class because they really got what they were looking for out of the class and it was apparently one of the few times in their college career that they were able to do that. And we had innumerable meetings over philosophy of education, grading systems, pass/fail, credit/no credit, credit/no credit honors, what does honors mean? Does that mean A-C-F? We went around and around like I perceived virtually every other experimental college at that time doing. We didn't think of ourselves as experimental. We didn't think of ourselves as an experiment which was going to run and then they were going to take it apart and dissect it and see whether or not it worked. We saw ourselves as an alternative which was a permanent fixture, and it was for over ten years on a campus. But it did change every year. The bigger we got, the more bureaucratically ossified we tended to get, the more difficult it was for people to branch out and try things, when in the early years we could. I figured it out just before I left that in the approximately ten years I was there, I taught forty-seven different courses. Almost every one of them several times and in every case, I had to design a course from beginning to end. And my level of involvement was - after about the first five years - probably atypically low because I was burning out. I did burn out. A lot of people were doing more than I was and we are all putting in eighty-hour weeks. [Barbara] Going back to the very beginning, when you applied… it sounds, from your description, that it was nuts. Like the committee… it was so much to decide and everything. What would attract you from a predictable position, such as Geology Department at CAS, to something like this? [MacTavish] Well, the Geology Department of CAS, I don't want to pick on them because they are very much like other science departments in many state schools around the �country. [MacTavish] But it's the kind of a situation where you know what you're going to teach this term, next term, two years from now, five years from now. The only thing that is different is: do we change a laboratory exercise? Do I upgrade the book to another book? Do I get a different collection of specimens and for the laboratory? In the three years that I was there, the third year I was designing the William James College, the second year I designed an Earth Science major because they didn't have one up to that point. But I sat back, and I said: "Is this really what I want to do for thirty years?" And the answer was no. And that's one of the reasons I got involved in campus administrative work. That's one of the reasons I got involved in William James. It's one of the reasons I got involved later in elective governments and that kind of thing. Because I can't do the same thing all the time. I go nuts. So, we had a situation in which we had to hire a staff, recruit students, to a place that had never been. And then once those students got there and that staff got there, we had a couple of weeks to get to know each other and set up a curriculum and bring the students on and give them their orientation and start the whole thing. And boom, we were into recruiting staff the size of our staff, including the Dean, in either the first year or the second year… fog sets in after fifteen. We were looking for a Dean and faculty members, and we got over eleven thousand applications. And we used to sit at a round table and feed the applications in and there were usually six people at a table - three faculty and three students - and if the application got three black balls by the time we got around the table, it was thrown out at the third black ball, and everything that got around the table without three black balls was then looked at again. And by springtime, we were interviewing two faculty candidates a week and the interviews were two days long - all day, both days, with a very heavy dinner and party in the middle. And in some cases that party went on till two a.m. because we felt that we had to get through the academic crap – or through the administrative tie or whatever the person had – to find out who he really was. And at times we didn't get there until two or three o'clock in the morning. And so here we are interviewing two or three people a week, doing our classes, and at the same time trying to recruit as many students as we had in existence. And that's why we're doing eighty-hour weeks. [Barbara] That's neat. Do you remember anything… I know I found in these notes that you went to some meeting in Ann Arbor, some big meeting with lots of representatives from other alternative or experimental schools. Can you tell me anything about the general movement at that time? [MacTavish] That one isn't real clear to me. I know I went to Redlands and did the same thing and… [Unknown] Excuse me, were running out of tape. �[Barbara] Okay, we’ve got to put another… Just thought there might be something you remember. [MacTavish] Yeah – No, I've done that two or three places. Redlands is the one I most remember because it turned out we were doing what a lot of people were saying to do… what it amounted to. People couldn't believe it. [Barbara] Okay, we'll save that. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_22_MacTavish Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource MacTavish, John Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource John MacTavish interview (3 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with John MacTavish by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. John MacTavish was faculty member of GVSC who was hired to teach Geology courses in 1968 and later transitioned to planning and teaching for William James College beginning in 1971. In this interview, John discusses his transition from being a member of the Geology Department within the College of Arts and Letters to becoming one of the pioneer faculty of William James College, in addition to the development of the James philosophy over time. This interview is part 3 of 3 for John MacTavish. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/563c4b04a27394be1f977baf81163178.pdf 1075825fe6b17e1be43d5a4bd40be3f7 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Cynthia Mader Interviewers: Kailey Rosema, Stephen Pratt and Erica Immekus Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/13/2012 Runtime: 00:49:36 Biography and Description Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University‟s College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia‟s involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids‟ first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Transcript Kailey Rosema: Okay my name is Kailey Rosema and I‟m here with Erica Immekus and Stephen Pratt. We are interviewing Cynthia Mader downtown Grand Rapids at Grand Valley‟s Pew campus in the Eberhard building. It is Tuesday, March 15, 2012 at 11:30 A.M. So Cynthia if you don‟t mind starting off maybe telling us a little bit about your family, your background, childhood, growing up life... Cynthia Mader: It was pretty ordinary, umm nothing, nothing out of the ordinary. Umm I was raised on the other side of the state. I was born in 1942, umm so I‟m nearing retirement here at Grand Valley. So as I said, I was born on the other side of the state in Bay City, Michigan. Small family, mother, father, one sister. Umm, Catholic family. I went to Catholic schools, Catholic grade school, Catholic high school. And then I went to Aquinas College here in town, I moved to Grand Rapids, which of course is a Catholic College. And then, for 23 years I taught in a Catholic high school here in town, Catholic Central and West Catholic. So umm, as far as childhood, it was I‟m sure as ordinary and, umm, there was nothing uncommon about it. My parents were married, stayed married. They were middle class, maybe a little bit more comfortable than just middle class, but certainly not wealthy. I had good friends, got along in school. I wish I could tell you some horror stories and I don‟t have a single one to Page 1 �tell you! So, I don‟t know, are there other things that you would like to know about childhood and growing up? I did all the things that kids do. You know, and in high school, student council and all those Girl Scout kinds of things. Umm, I dated, the usual. KR: When you moved to Western Michigan, was that specifically for school? CM: Yes, that‟s what brought me here, was Aquinas College. And I never moved out again, I mean I never moved back to my hometown. I did go back there a lot, but I‟ve lived in Grand Rapids ever since. I love Grand Rapids, I think it‟s just a perfect town, perfect town for me anyway. Umm, but yes, I‟ve lived here all my life, and worked here all my life in the Grand Rapids area, but that‟s what brought me here. KR: Okay, good. Umm, so can you tell us a little bit about your education? CM: My education... Well, I‟ve had the good luck of being able to go to school a lot, I like to go to school. And I‟ve been able to because I‟m single, have been single. No family, no children. I don‟t know how people do it. I really don‟t know how, especially women, I don‟t know they do it, when they‟re working and have a family and try to get advanced degrees. But at any rate, I got my undergrad degree from Aquinas in English and education, and French and social studies too. Although I‟m certified to teach those, but it would be just a travesty if I ever tried to teach French! That was my undergrad. After that, again as I said I had the time and interest, I went on and earned three Masters degrees after that. A Masters in English, a Masters in library science, and a Masters in counseling. All of which helped with a teaching certificate because you can do all of those things in schools. And then, umm, I was teaching high school at the time during all of that, and then I began my PhD and finished that in 1994 I think it was. I had already come to Grand Valley to work by that time, but right around that time I finished that degree and I haven‟t stepped foot into a classroom as a student since then. Stephen Pratt: So was all of your college classes, Undergrad and Graduate, all at Aquinas? CM: No, umm, no, the undergrad was all there. Graduate was at Michigan State and U of M. SP: So you did bump around from Grand Rapids a little bit. CM: Oh yeah, yeah. And if I weren‟t working full time I probably would have gone further afield, but its pretty hard to do that and work full time. And for some reason it never occurred to me to take off time, you know as many many people do now, just go to the school that you want to go to and get a graduate assistantship and go full time, but that never occurred to me. I was always on a commuter basis. KR: Alright, so how did you start becoming involved in the LGBTQ community? CM: Well, I was relatively old before I became involved in the community. I always knew I was gay, I mean, as early as anyone knows anything like that. And I certainly had individual relationships during my adult life. Very stable, very good relationships. But I wasn‟t involved Page 2 �in the community at all. Teaching in a Catholic school, [CM chuckles] kind of, well, militates against that. You just don‟t. So it wasn‟t until I left K-12 teaching and went into higher ed that I had began to be involved in the gay community in town, and began to realize what a huge community it is. I think most people would be surprised how many men and women there are and how many close friendships and groups and activities... and well close friendships I guess is really...and long standing relationships. So at any rate, I became involved during a time when, lets see, it would have been... hmm, the 80‟s or early 90‟s, when the gay movement, it was a movement by then. It had not been a movement, there was just people, individual people. But by then it was becoming a rights of a gay movement for civil rights. And I happened to become involved around the time, of I don‟t know if you‟re aware of the Gay March on Washington? SP, KR, & EI: Yes [All nod and answer in agreement] CM: Are you? Okay good for you. Yes, so it was right...well you tell me the year, „87 perhaps? I can‟t remember. But that was exactly the time when I became involved. I was not on the march or anything, but people came back to this area absolutely fired up, having been on that march. And decided „Hey, we can put something together in this community!‟ Something that is formalized, something that is visible, something that is political and social, but something that gives a face to the community because there had been nothing of course as I said, just individual people. And so, at that point, many people joined together, coalesced around two men who had recently moved here from San Diego and were much more involved and politically savvy [CM laughs] than we were in Grand Rapids. But they were kind of the center of this. And from that grew the, umm, Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated. I don‟t know if you‟re aware of that organization. Most organizations like that, that are small and grassroots, they just don‟t last; I think two or three years is the average life, but that is still going strong, about 20 years I think it‟s been in Grand Rapids. It serves as kind of an umbrella organization, and a political organization, a political wing to meet with politicians, to meet with city officials, with schools, and just all sorts of things- It‟s an outreach kind of organization. So that‟s when I became involved and that‟s how I became involved. I was on the first Board of Directors for the first couple years- the first couple of terms I guess for about six years or so. I have not been as involved in it, aside from being a member since that time, but it is flourishing, it‟s very very active. It met with a lot of resistance at first, umm, as you can imagine Grand Rapids in 1989 or whatever that was, 1990 was not particularly hospitable to any organization like that- let alone one that had a building, had a face, had people out interviewing with the news and things like that. So that‟s the involvement. From that point on, I became less directly involved with that, and more personally involved with friends- large large groups of friends. And probably more politically involved with women‟s issues, which is often the course I think that women in the movement take. For some reason, who knows why, it seems to happen that in these local movements, umm, they tend to be gender balanced at the beginning, but then I don‟t know whether the women kind of drop out, or the men step in [CM laughs]. I‟m not sure what it is, but they tend to be pretty male, I Page 3 �don‟t want to say dominated because that‟s kind of a negative connotation, but male-led after that. Umm, I think it‟s probably because women are maybe more interested in women‟s issues: Family care, child care, things that the YWCA would be doing, rather than the gay movement. I think that men are more tuned, boy talk about stereotypes [Subtle laughter from everyone], men are more tuned to political edge. And certainly women want rights too, I‟m not in any way denying that. But I think I‟m a little far off topic too [Everyone laughs]. So that‟s how I got involved. KR: Okay, when you were, umm you said you were the First Chair of Directors. What kind of stuff did you do for the... CM: For the network? KR: Yeah. CM: Oh yeah, First Board of Directors. Oh my Lord, well first of all just to get an outfit like that up and running is just an enormous volunteer task. We worked night and day, night and day to, you know, I mean it‟s just stuff like bylaws, mission statements, vision statements- All of which is kind of peripheral, but the first main activity was the pride celebration. Now it‟s an annual celebration in June downtown. I think now it‟s around the Ford Museum, I think, although it might be elsewhere. I haven‟t gone in a while. But to have a pride celebration in Grand Rapids, a gay pride celebration in Grand Rapids at that time, Oh my Lord, umm gay people were being shot at ya know, for organizing and being visible. That of course didn‟t happen, it was down at the Calder. Music, crafts, food, it was truly a celebration. And people kind of, [CM pauses], it was a real risk. You thought you were taking a risk to go down there. And it turned out to be very calm, entertaining. There were a lot of protesters around, but they didn‟t bother the group too much. It was, [CM pauses], It‟s almost like a test of whether those fears were accurate or not. And they were accurate, people were getting killed elsewhere, but I think in the gay community a lot of people didn‟t want to be visible because they were afraid of being discriminated against, losing their job, losing their family, whatever. So it kind of became an inner test of “Is anything bad really going to happen?”. And for the most part, no! For the most part it was a nice news story. And it has continued on ever since, that particular celebration. That was the first visible event that the network decided to do. Beyond that, oh gosh, we did a lot of organizing around a city ordinance with sexual orientation as a protected class. And that took several years with a lot of debate in the newspapers everywhere. A lot of debate, a lot of talking to city officials, umm, it just went on and on and on. And finally the city commission did indeed put in the sexual orientation ordinance that says it‟s illegal in Grand Rapids to discriminate in housing and employment, so that was a huge step. Beyond that it was ongoing activities. Umm, service projects, speaker groups, education, you name it, the network was there, and still is. Page 4 �SP: Was there any point where there was just a large amount of protesters or a large push back towards the gay community? CM: Over the ordinance there was. Yes a lot of businesses got together sending out, well you could call it hate literature if you wanted to, so there was that. But by the time the network began, the worst had happened in Grand Rapids. Again, it‟s hard to say the worst had happened because it was such an invisible group. Prior to that nobody came out, it was just, I mean you simply didn‟t. There were a few gay bars, and I, I was just kind of at the edge of that, in the sense of I was too young to have been in that particular era, but I certainly know many people who talk about raids on the gay bars, and fear and arrests and things like that. As I say I was a little too young and just missed that period. By the time I got involved, the sixties had happened, the black civil rights movement was well underway, the women‟s movement was well underway, so there was a little bit more awareness. So I can‟t say that there was ever violence by any means, there was a lot of hatred though, at the visibility. And of course, ya know, West Michigan is a very nice area, and the feeling in West Michigan has always been: “I don‟t care what you do, I just don‟t want to see it, I don‟t want to see it”. Well, that‟s not the best message to send a human being [CM chuckles]. So anyway... SP: What did, uhh, what did your family and friends think and what did, uhh.. were you still Catholic at this point? CM: ..mhmm.. Still am, uh huh. In kind of a cultural sense… SP: So what kind of feedback did you get back from… CM: ... None from my family. I never spoke about it to them…[SP says an understanding “no”] never spoke it about it to them… Um, I lived 150 miles away so it was easy not to talk about it. Um, they would visit here, and, you know, for a week and a half you can… you can live any way you want and not have your friends around or anything like that. Um, my friends by then… friends were friends… there was… [CM stutters while thinking of what to say] I‟ve never had a bad experience. I really have to say that. And I wish I could give you something juicy for your, for your tape here [group laughter] but I‟ve personally never had a bad experience. Maybe I‟ve protected myself, I don‟t know, maybe I‟ve isolated myself and not put myself out there, I don‟t think that‟s the case though. I think I‟ve had extraordinarily good friends and extraordinarily um, oh, well informed friends. So for me, that hasn‟t been much of an issue, however, there‟s something, I…I… I can‟t quite explain it and you‟re young enough so you might not get this but there‟s something just weird about saying I am gay, because all it talks about is who you fall in love with, that‟s all it talks about. And yet it becomes for some people, such an identifying trait and, you know that, “that‟s my gay friend” [CM laughs] um, rather than that‟s my friend. So, its, its just, it was a weird feeling all of that time and still is to a certain extent. I, um, I happen to teach grad classes that have a lot to do with social justice issues just like your U.S. diversity. And when we get to um, sexuality, I articulate the fact that I‟m a lesbian. [CM chuckles] It‟s kind of interesting, over the years, because I‟ve taught the class a long time, over the years, the Page 5 �reaction is different. It‟s much calmer, there‟s not, “Oh my God!”, you know, which it used to be. Um, people are much less, you know on the discussion board, much less vitriolic and I uh… gay people… [CM mocks former anti-gays views on keeping their sexuality out of the public‟s eye] “I don‟t care what they do, just keep it out of my face.” There‟s much, much less of that. So, um, the times have changed, really, times have moved forward. It‟s not there yet by any means, I don‟t know if it ever will be, but, but it‟s improving. KR: Um, when you were growing up, was there anything that further influenced you or your involvement or your identity like people, articles, news? CM: It was so oblivious. I mean I knew I wasn‟t experiencing the same things my friends were. I knew I wasn‟t falling in love with that boy in geometry [CM chuckles]. But, that was about as close as I came to, to realizing anything. I don‟t think it was until, I don‟t know, maybe late college, early… excuse me, late high school, early college, that I even put a name to what that difference was. All I knew was that, I knew enough not to talk about it. I guess I knew something, didn‟t I? I knew enough not to talk about it. Um, but mostly I just knew that I was not experiencing the same feelings that they were experiencing and talking about. And so, as far as influences, that too is hard to say. Um, there was nothing… the subject was never spoken of. Neither plus nor minus in my hometown which was a small hometown, catholic school, um, so it wasn‟t spoken about… I knew, I knew something was wrong, I thought I‟d outgrow it [CM chuckles]. Uh, so I can‟t name in influence at all. I can name good influences on, on, on the way that I grew to think about things. And the fact that I‟ve never really experienced that so called catholic guilt. I think my catholic upbringing was a little bit different then many people. It was quite enlightened, it was quite forward thinking, and so I… I kind of experienced social discomfort. Worrying about what people would think, but I never experienced that guilt, that religious guilt. So… and then beyond that, college… of course, after… by that time you know, you start to read, you start to talk, you start to inform yourself, and so yeah, those were influences on me. But, beyond that, I don‟t think… I just read widely and have followed the movement for, even before it was a movement and evolved with it. And, um… that‟s, that‟s it as far as influences. My own reading has been the biggest influence… and then um… But not growing up, there, I can‟t say one way or another at all. [CM shakes her head in disbelief of having any influences] KR: When you were working in the network, was there anyone, or anything, or an event that empowered you to become more involved or take more actions? CM: I think it was the whole series of events of just being out there. Because what it does is it tells you, nothing‟s going to happen. [Cynthia chuckles due to her ironic realization]. And not only does nothing happen, it, I think the biggest thing that happens internally. Because to go through, you know I look back to when I was teaching high school 23 years, 23 years of not being, of not identifying, not articulating who I really was, not talking about any of my outside work friends or anything like that; I think it sends a terrible message to yourself that there‟s Page 6 �something about you that can‟t be spoken about, that can see the light of day. So my involvement with the network and with that growing community of friends [Stephen Pratt coughs] allowed me to, to just abandon that way of life, I never, never ever repeat that again. KR: Um, let‟s see. Was there um, before you became involved you said there wasn‟t much, um, going on for civil rights… [in the LGBTQ community] CM: Not in the LGBT community, right, yeah. Definitely the, uh, the black community and I was very involved with that. And if you want an influence, probably that was, the whole civil rights, black civil rights movement influenced me deeply and, and made me realize, um, the political possibilities, um, how, how you could make change, how things have happened, how, how sometimes power is so subtle that people don‟t even realize that they‟re being subordinated, all of those things. The civil rights movement had a huge influence on me. The women‟s movement after that had a big influence on me also. In many ways, in many ways they‟re parallel, in many ways they‟re not, but in many ways they‟re parallel. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] SP: So between the two movements, there was, you had, did you have a lot of involvement in both at the time? CM: Yes I did, yes I did. It gave me a way of thinking. So that, but even then, you know, I thought well, but, but being gay is different; that‟s not, that‟s not civil, that‟s not African American, that‟s not women‟s movement, that‟s something different that‟s off to the side, don‟t, there‟s nothing to be involved there because that‟s quiet, silent, invisible. But it began to give me a way of thinking, mhmm, it allowed me then to pursue that. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: How are you involved in the African American communities, like you were saying? CM: Yeah, well, bear in mind that that didn‟t really flourish until, well, it flourished, but it didn‟t come to the general public‟s attention until in the late fifties and sixties. At that time I was in college and I was at Aquinas [college] and Aquinas [college] is a very, very, um, good institution when it comes to social justice issues. So, uh, we marched, we sang, we licked envelopes, we did all sorts of things in that, uh, in that period of time. And then, after that I was teaching high school and so there were involvements there also, with, you know, African American student groups and, and, oh gosh, there were workshops, there was, oh it was the Vietnam war. I mean you talk about a time that was exciting, and, and just “wow” something going on all the time regarding civil rights. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: Um, going back to your work in the LGBTQ community, [CM says “mhmm”] um, did you ever do any work outside of Grand Rapids at all? CM: No. Um, I don‟t know if you‟d like to get into this, but Grand Valley, would you like to talk about work at Grand Valley? Page 7 �KR: Yeah. SP: Of course. CM: Okay, um [CM clears her throat], well, hmm hmm. When I came to Grand Valley… I knew a lot of people here already because I lived in the area so I already had a lot of gay and lesbian friends here at Grand Valley already. But, again, a very invisible community, very invisible. And, and now, things like domestic partner benefits are a given. Things like um, protection, sexual orientation, and the affirmative action and equal protection clause, absolutely a given. But at that time, I don‟t think anyone breathed the word, um, it was just circles of friends, obviously. But as far as the university, there was nothing. And you may be familiar with some of the climate studies that have been done here at Grand Valley. I don‟t know that within your time here but about every, I don‟t know, every five to ten years, Grand Valley has done a, a so called climate study. Mostly to kind of gauge the temperature on women‟s issues and, uh, race issues and things like that. Well the first one was done shortly after I was here. And through that study, it became obvious that there was a fair population of, of gay and lesbian people, staff and faculty, who were not particularly, who didn‟t really feel like the, the… [CM chuckles] Grand Valley family, that, that we all talk about, you know, we really kind of felt second class. Because there were no benefits, none of that for families and things like that. So, as many of these things happen, it happened with a few people. I and… I‟m not going to name names because, just because, um, I don‟t know if they‟re interested in being online with this. But I and about four other women started to approach the president, uh, President Lubbers at that time. And bless his heart, President Lubbers is a good man but I think he was… pardon me President Lubbers if you listen to this [EI chuckles] but I think he was a little bit clueless uh, that there were even people on his campus… [CM laughs] And, and I think he wanted to do the right thing but of course, politically, it would be very, very difficult for him to back any kind of gay/ lesbian stuff in this town. Not with the donors that donated to Grand Valley which were very, very conservative group. And so, he encouraged us, but, I can‟t say it was out-front. We then began to expand into a more formal organization which has now become the Faculty Staff Association of Gay and Lesbian faculty and staff and we started to get together and talk about can we do as a group, not anymore as individuals, but what can we do as a group. One of the things we wanted, because every other institution had it, is domestic partner benefits. I don‟t know if you‟re aware, aware of what domestic partner benefits are just as in, um, um, straight couples. The spouse or partner, spouse, um, can get health benefits and all the other health benefits that the university affords. Um, we of course couldn‟t. And so we really began lobbying for that. We started talking to board members, we started talking to the various organizations on campus; the faculty senate, the AP association, um, women‟s commission. Every possible, conceivable organization and got their backing. And finally, after about two years of talking and saying “here we are, we‟re decent people, ya know, we‟re okay” uh, and there are about fifty of us, finally President Lubbers decided he that would back it, he would back the request for domestic partner benefits. The only thing is he wanted it to be kept fairly quiet so that the newspapers didn‟t jump on it before it was done and just ruin the whole thing. So he was, um, all set to put it for a word to the Page 8 �board of trustees and somewhere in that week in between, the newspaper did get a hold of it and there was a front page story saying Grand Valley is going to start to give domestic partner benefits. And I guess, from what I understand, he was inundated by donors. Saying, “uh uhh, [CM laughs in disbelief] our money is out of here, if you, if you do that, we will not allow that. If you go ahead and do domestic partner benefits, we‟re out of here, you will get no more money from us”. And they were big names, and you can imagine who some of those big names were. Many of our buildings are named after them. And he backed down, and it was a very difficult time, I‟m sure for him, because he had to back down publicly. After being quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying it was the right thing to do, six days later, he had to be quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying, well, perhaps I was hasty. And it was a very sad time, I‟m sure for him, and it certainly was for us. Then, there was a new president, and this goes on forever… There was a new president, new change in administration and they were no more willing, no more. That was President Murray‟s administration. He was only here for two years. He was very in tuned with the business community and just did not see it as a very wise thing to do. So… Um, we kept talking and talking and talking and finally about five years ago, the board, with very little fan fair instituted domestic benefits for LGBT in faculty and staff. And that was a huge victory. [It] sounds like such a little thing but we were; I think Grand Valley was the last in the state to do it. It might‟ve been second from last in the higher education institution. So that‟s one example here at Grand Valley. And things have just done a complete turnaround! I‟m not saying that it‟s perfect here for, um, especially here for students, it might be tough. But for faculty and staff, it‟s light years different from what it used to be. There‟s no, there‟s no negative feelings, there‟s no need to be invisible, there just isn‟t. It‟s a totally different environment. Some people may choose to for whatever reason, but totally different environment with a very active association. Uh, there‟s the LGBT center; that in itself took, uh, five years I think to convince them to get. Uh, yeah, they agreed to it in principle… [CM mocks the former Grand Valley politics] “yes yes yes yes, it‟s needed in principle…” But for the… We joke, for the first two or three years, the center, the center bear in mind, was a bookshelf [CM laughs in disbelief] over in, over in Kirkoff, or over in student services, I can‟t remember. And then, as you probably know, Professor Milt Ford really took it in hand and became the director; he was appointed director and then it became a center. Colette Beighley is the director now… It‟s a wonderful, wonderful resource. Sometimes I look at their programming; the movies and the speakers they‟re bringing in and I think, my gosh, ya know, it‟s like U of M, we‟re big time! Really fascinating programming and kind of, um, kind of, some of it‟s on the edge, ya know, they do a wonderful job. KR: Are you involved with them at all right now, currently? CM: Uhm, oh I certainly uh support. I am a member. I uhm, Being here in uhm, Grand Rapids makes it a little tough to be as involved on campus as I used to be and as I wanted to be. I, we used to be on campus, and you know you were a short walk away from everybody, it‟s a little bit different here now but, so no I am not as involved no. But I am certainly, not as directly involved, but very involved supportively. Mhmm. Page 9 �KR: Awesome, uhm, do you know what kind of projects they are currently working on at all or... CM: No, I think it‟s mostly to improve to, to just do more of the same... oh by the way are you familiar with the film, the LGBT history of West Michigan? SP: Ya, that‟s what we watched in class CM: Oh you did watch that SP: Actually we watched… [All talking at once] CM: Okay..I was, I don‟t know if you recognize.. people come up to me on the street and they say “those glasses, where have I met you before?” and we finally realized it was in that documentary! I‟m serious it has happened more than once! Which shows you how often I get glasses, get new glasses. [laughs] But yes, yeah that uhm.. but oh, what a wonderful documentary that was and the center was part of that. SP: I know that that video kinda touched on uhm, a lot of, a lot of people in the gay community that were involved with… CM: Oh, yes! SP: AIDS and STDS and… CM: Oh, yes! SP: Things of that sort, what kind of impact did that have on the Grand Rapids community? And especially personally? CM: Well, I certainly lost of gay male friends. A LOT. I can‟t tell you how many, [sighs] uhm memorial services and funerals that I might speak at or attend. A lot.. Uhm.. This might sound odd because I‟m on the one hand, AIDS was oh, in some ways it convinced the bigoted community that, this was God‟s punishment on gay people. That there you would see bumper stickers uhh, “AIDS IS GOD‟S PUNISHMENT” you‟d see bumper stickers saying that! [Explained in astonished voice] So anyway, on the one hand it had that just devastating affect politically in the community on the other hand I don‟t want in any way to at all call it a blessing but it gave a human face [pauses] to the gay community. Once people started realizing, oh my gosh. The guy I used to work with, just died of AIDS. Oh my god, I loved him. [mocking demeanor of such surprised individuals] And that of course happened, over and over and over again. I think people began to realize its not some fringe group, these are people that are integrated in my life, these are people I know. So, I would never say AIDS was a blessing on the gay community but it sure had some good results, I think. Mhmm. Uhm, and and its another group here in town as you have said, in the documentary, that the AIDS resource center was mmm, the work that they did at that time, that nobody else would, nobody would even visit those Page 10 �men. Who were sick and dying in their homes, uhm, AIDS resource center was just a magnificent work. KR: Were you involved with the AIDS resource center? CM: No, I‟m sorry to say that I wasn‟t, no. I mean as part of the network we have supported all of that, publicized all of it. But, no as far as directly working with it I didn‟t. KR: Uhm, how do you think the movie or documentary impacted people, [CM placed coffee cup on desk] not only at Grand Valley, but within our community. CM: Well you know, I, I would almost ask you that question. When I first saw it I was at the premiere showing of it, here on campus. It was over at Lucemore, it was just this fall. And it was I don‟t know if you have been told this but there was 700 people. It was uh, uh not a sellout, it was free had nothing to sell but it was an overflow audience, 200 had to watch it from another room or something like that. It was of course beautifully received there because a lot of the people who were there are knowing that it was going to be shown for the first time were people who had been involved historically for all of those years. I happened that night, to be sitting next to a student I had taught in high school. Uhm, she was a person who has been quite active in the Grand Rap… She was a straight woman, uhm but very active in the Grand Rapids community within theatre and things like that. Well I happened to be sitting next to her I mean we had [stammers] knew I mean we had seen each other through the years [breath] uh and she had probably knew that uh that I was gay, uh but her reaction was more interesting to me than the reaction of all the other people, they loved it. But after, she said I had no idea to think that when you would come in and teach us Shakespeare, [CM chuckles] that that night you were out there doing all these political things and meeting with the mayor and signing city ordinances and things like that. She said she had no idea that any of that was going on at that time, she just found that fascinating. [breathe] so uh, the time that I saw it it was very well received, I haven‟t I have shown portions in my class uh, oh the portion I show is the Jerry Crane portion. The teacher, the teacher in Byron Center that was fired and who subsequently died, I showed that and the minister who was talking uh, I knew Jerry Crane, not well, but I knew him a little bit, and his partner Randy. Uhm, so. What was the reaction when you saw it in class? KR: Uhm, I enjoyed it personally. I just thought that it was cool that people in the community at Grand Valley were spreading awareness and… CM: yeah, yeah. I was just delighted that Grand Valley had a part in it. And that‟s, that‟s the LGBT center, that‟s Collete Bagley, Bigley. Who is responsible for getting this out there, all the time. She‟s really, she‟s a dynamicist really. SP: It was definitely an eye opener, that‟s for sure. CM: Ah SP: I‟m sure it was to a lot of people Page 11 �CM: Really!? SP: Especially in our class CM: Huh..In the sense that?... SP: In the sense that, I was just unaware and that I had no idea CM: Uh huh, of all that had been going on SP: Right, yeah especially how far it had gone back into the history of Grand Rapids… CM: Oh, yeah SP: .. and community CM: and..and of course the people, that you may not recall, but the very first person talking, uh, she was just sitting alone in her room, and she had shorts on, and I can‟t remember…she was talking about the gay bar scene for women, uhm, very good friend of mine, and she had been involved during that period. Pre-dating me, she she‟s the same age as me, but as I say I kind of got involved in the community later. I wish that somebody could do a documentary on that scene, that prehistory of Grand Rapids where everybody was closeted. Uhm, and the only place that you could meet, was in the, in gay bars, and homes of course. Jeff Smith the person who did the documentary says he is thinking of doing that, probably would need to do it fairly soon because that that‟s an older population, older even than even I am, or older than even she is you know. For the most part, those women would now be in their 80s maybe, most of them, late 70s and 80s.. [pause] so, well I‟m glad that you like the documentary. KR: Mhmm.. uhm, lets see. How do you think that, like throughout the years of being an activist, uhm.. how do you think your views, did they change at all or… CM: No, I think they just became more uhm deep rooted, deep seeded, yeah. And in class when we talk about it, students often ask me if I would change, if I could. Uhm, uhh [breathes out in awe], No the answer is absolutely not. I said uh well ya know, it would be a whole lot easier for you if you did, or it would have been a lot. I think it had, I think it has given me, again I don‟t want to say that it‟s a blessing but in a way it is, I think it‟s given me kind of uh, uh a double vision. Uh, when I was growing up and younger people would say things about African Americans they would say things about, in my home town, Mexicans, they would say things about uh, single mothers, illegitimate children [laughs] and they would say things about gay people. And I, I can remember thinking, hmmm I know that‟s not true what they are saying, I know that‟s not true about me, and I know that‟s not true about what they are saying about my friends, maybe it‟s not true what they are saying about black people, or Mexican people or illegitimate children, which is what they were called, or single mothers uhm. Or welfare, maybe its not true about them either. So it has kind of given me uh, uhm like a second lense almost, to Page 12 �look through. So, no. My my answer feelings haven‟t changed, or my thoughts, they‟ve just grown more convinced. SP: Whenever students would ask you if you could change would you, did you ever, has there ever been like uh, a jealousy of not having a family like a like the normal [sarcasm], the American family CM: The American dream? [Chuckles] SP: Yeah, the American dream type of deal CM: [laughs] it really has never bothered me, I think it might some people, although with things developing as they are now that‟s gonna be possible, it already is many, many people are already living lives made it possible. But no, it‟s never been uh, a regret of mine or anything. Uh, uh. Sometimes, as I get older I wonder, hmmm who‟s gonna take care of me when I‟m in the hollowed home [sarcasm and laughs] things will work out. KR: Uhm, let‟s see. [pause] Is there uhm EI: I know you talked about how you said that you can like see changes occurring, uhm what within the community can you like truly like see a difference in like in especially like within Grand Valley if you have seen anything CM: Oh, just the openness EI: Just the openness? CM: Oh my Lord Yes. [With enthusiasm] Yeah. Just the openness. Uh, there is no other way to say it. It‟s, uh a non-issue now. And, and, and its not that its not supported I mean it it‟s an issue at the LGBT center and its an issue whenever there is harassment and stuff like that, its… it it its [stammers] just like its different era we‟re breathing. In uh, in society in general, I think that to me the biggest difference, I never [emphasized] would have in million years dream that we would talk about gay marriage. Ever! [laughs] uhm, I don‟t it will happen, it will certainly happen in our lifetimes, but ah, who would ever have thought that when you consider 25, 30 years ago, and even today some people are afraid to self-identify and now we are talking about the possibility of gay marriage, woah! Its, its remarkable and when you get discouraged, it‟s helpful to look back at at things. Doesn‟t mean there‟s any less resentment and hate out there, because there is a lot of it, but it‟ll change. Mhmm. KR: Where do you see uhm, the civil rights of the LGBTQ community going in the future. Like what topics may be.. CM: I think gay marriage is the ultimate KR: Mhmm Page 13 �CM: Mhmm, [breathes] in fact [laughs] those of us who came up through the harder times, ya know when you come up through hard times you kind of develop a sense of comradeship and we‟re all in this together against the world some, of us have said oh, when we‟re like everybody else [chuckles] maybe we‟re gonna miss that, that comradeship but ya know for African Americans it was known as black pride at that time uhm, gay pride, maybe we‟re going to miss kind of fighting against the world. Just us against them. But if so, it‟s worth it for civil rights. I mean it it it it [stammers] if we did miss that, that‟s a small thing to miss, yeah.. it‟s a good trade off to have civil rights, SP: So I know that you said that it throughout, that you‟ve seen a change throughout the straight community where they have become more accepting… CM: Mhmmm SP: ...is that, what is your reaction to the west Michigan lifestyle, if you will, that that community has become more accepting of the gay community CM: [stutters] change in them or change in? SP: A change in them, a change in... CM: In them? SP: ...how do you think, how do you feel that they, that you‟ve gotten the western Michigan people to become more accepting CM: Uhm, it was never overt hatred before, so its hard ya know its hard to say SP: Mhmm CM: Now that there is, because it was never overt before all I can say is, it it theres not the tension. Uhm, nope. Uh, you you might think twice before you self-identify, or or or are open, you might think twice, but..but by the time you think the third time you think, who cares. [laughs] they‟ll, ya know like what are they gonna do. Now that‟s not everybody. There are a lot of people who have a whole lot at stake and who, simply can‟t, I mean I‟m not in a perfect position for heaven‟s sakes, I‟m tenured faculty, you can‟t get much more safe than that. I really mean that I‟ve never had to worry about employment. Employment is a huge issue, uh in some cases uh, custody battle. Huge issue with some parents worry „I have to give up my children‟ if I‟m open. So, mhmm. KR: Uhm. So, do you have anything else you would like to share with us, any of your stories or…? CM: [laughs] Uhm, [pause] I was saying to my my partner we‟ve been together about 23 years now. She says „what are you going to say this morning, when they interview? [laughs] You‟re not going to say anything you‟re not supposed to are you, what are you gonna talk about?‟ uhm, Page 14 �actually we‟ve covered a whole lot of ground. Uhm. Nothing comes to my mind, although I am more than happy to share anything else that you can think of. KR: Uhm, do you guys have any more questions? SP: I‟m out of questions. CM: out of questions? KR: Alrighty, well uhm thank you so much. CM: Absolutely! KR: This concludes the oral history. CM: Absolutely! KR: Yep, Thank you, for your time and also thanks to Grand Valley for putting on this program. CM: Yes. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely that also. Should I be…should I sign this as far as a release form… END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b16f9b03fcbc64efb7da5844ef188e4c.mp3 bfe1209a2739b884102ec073862bb5dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Mader_Cynthia Title A name given to the resource Cynthia Mader audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mader, Cynthia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rosema, Kailey Pratt, Stephen Immekus, Erica Description An account of the resource Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University's College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia's involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids' first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Homophobia Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/503915b2f7599000eef0b1601532eb09.pdf a6b3691bb32f7ffea0fd58855e320fe1 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sophologium [folium 137] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_137Magni1474 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Magni, Jacobus Description An account of the resource One leaf from Sophologium by Jacobus Magni. Printed in Strassburg by The" R-Printer" (Adolf Rusch) in 1474. Illustrated with red rubricated initials. [GW M17665; ISTC ib00040500] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Strassburg: The "R-Printer" (Adolf Rusch) Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1474 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text