451
24
26018
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6e0aefd8ce208e617ed5d5f9024f6a2.jpg
ead512cf1308285d8553dcf4f3d2904e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-07_SD-Pie-Factory-38
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lloyd J. Harris Pie Co.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Dough Room
Description
An account of the resource
A photo of a man operating a dough machine. The caption reads: "This machine has been imported from Switzerland. It duplicates the hand motion of mixing dough which is by far the most superior. Note special device for counting strokes to insure uniformity of mix."
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Factories
Bakeries
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Digital file collected by the Kutsche Office of Local History from the Saugatuck Douglas History Center for the Stories of Summer project.
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dc78c69735af4885dffe0e4dfb268b96.jpg
4effe6c6f952a445f20b2edf27e35cae
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-07_SD-Pie-Factory-39
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lloyd J. Harris Pie Co.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Pie Pan Washer
Description
An account of the resource
A black and white photo of the pie pan washer, which is being operated by two women i white dresses. The caption reads: "Designed by Lloyd J. Harriss and built to his specifications this machine does the most thoorough washing and sterillizing job that has ever been introduced in the pie industry." It goes on to explain the way in which the machine works.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Factories
Bakeries
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Digital file collected by the Kutsche Office of Local History from the Saugatuck Douglas History Center for the Stories of Summer project.
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d6c38b6e7debabc31b0d3345ae7ddaa.jpg
39f817c382d0827694b06c8dfe23ce27
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-07_SD-Pie-Factory-40
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lloyd J. Harris Pie Co.
Title
A name given to the resource
Truck Refrigeration
Description
An account of the resource
A photo of a man connecting several trucks to the main amonia refrigerating plant. The caption reads "Trucks Being Connected With Main Ammonia Refrigerating Plant: The very latest feature for delivering cream pies."
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Factories
Bakeries
Refrigerated trucks
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Digital file collected by the Kutsche Office of Local History from the Saugatuck Douglas History Center for the Stories of Summer project.
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f73a0a40688b8a8d8f5eefd2283ea47.mp4
a90fb7de4dfd39033363fc0a9090ae3f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a85286c22d0a2bcbeba893ae8ff19dce.pdf
0bb17412020d59267f112a0403c34e96
PDF Text
Text
Interview Notes
(Length 46:48)
Jim Lloyd
WWII Veteran
United States Army: 1942‐1946
• Born in Rogers Park Chicago 1922
• Attended Rogers Sullivan High School
• Attended Notre Dame College 1940‐Arts and Literature Major‐Degree in economics.
• Father‐Catalog Editor for Montgomery Ward
• Mother‐PTA
• Married 1942‐present
(2:13) Beginning of Experience:
• Heard about Pearl Harbor on the radio at home
• Enlisted in Army Summer 1942‐Halfway through sophomore year of college
• Signed up for immediate duty
(4:30) Wichita, Kansas‐‐Training 1942
• Flight school
• Testing for placement‐ Group #1
• Assigned to college for 1 month‐Geography course
• Quarantined on Base for a disease outbreak‐didn’t affect him‐ couldn’t meet up with girls off
base that night (27:55)
• Close to Oklahoma border
(26:15) Arkansas
• Knee went out‐sent off to hospital for bone chips (Walnut Ridge, Memphis)
•
Lived in a college dorm not a base
•
(6:40) Memphis Tennessee
Military forgot to send X‐Rays‐were lost
•
Visited by the Surgeon General of the Air Force in Kennedy Hospital(44:56)
•
They said “What are you doing here?”
•
ACL Replacement
•
Wrecked ride at amusement park –crutch got stuck in mechanics of ride(45:33)
(7:58) Gulf Port Mississippi
�•
3 Unsuccessful surgeries
•
Grounded from Air Cadet
•
Super Secret Air Force bomber‐officer ran
•
Took qualifying exam to run bomber‐passed
•
•
•
(8:56) Denver 1943‐1944 approximately 1 ½ years (located near Lowry Airport presently
known as De Fault)
Greeted by military officials again as “What are you doing here?”
Armament repair work‐local gun torrents
Graduated
•
•
(10:00) Instructor for newly opened school for remote control bomber
2nd Teacher on D‐Shift 12‐7a.m. in Brick Barracks
Taught H‐3‐given syllabus in advanced electronics‐he did not understand‐had students help
teach class
B‐29 bomber came in finally‐wheels didn’t work
Military personnel were European veterans needing to be retrained
•
•
•
•
•
(13:45) Court‐martialed
Answered role for another in PT‐no consequences‐1944
Received Good Conduct Medal‐1943
Met his wife at the USO‐1944‐moved from base to apartment
Made $53.00 a month
School closed up
•
•
(18:20) Shepherdsfield Texas
Asked “What are you doing here?”‐wrong aircraft experience
Spent 1 week before transferring on
•
(18:50)Grand Island Nebraska Mid 1945‐spent 7‐8 months here
Joined bomb service group heading for Alaska
•
•
•
•
Full Bomb Service Station‐qualified on the m30 carbine
Assigned to the Instrument Panel Group‐no idea how to run it‐military admits did not know
where else to put him
•
Taught shooting the carbine to personnel
•
Assigned a jeep and a driver‐would go crow hunting
�•
Hitch‐hiked to N. Dakota to visit wife‐farmer and family gives rides to uniformed Jim
•
Stayed in jail overnight for hitch‐hiking‐brought to edge of town in morning
(29:57)Returned to Notre Dame
(30:37)1st National Bank
•
Chicago Illinois‐training program
•
Gap of knowledge with other trainees
•
Uncle was former officer at the bank
•
Ended training program early because of extensions in program‐ 6mo. To 3 yrs.
•
(33:45)University of Chicago
Received MBA‐night school
(34:33)Lived near Wrigley Field
Had wife and 2 kids at time
•
Lived Broadway and Adley [Addison?]
•
Only Catholic family in Jewish neighborhood
•
(36:30)GE Supply Company
Worked from Warehouse to Asst. Traffic Appliance Salesman to Manager of Traffic Appliance.
•
(38:00)Park Ridge
•
Worked for Warring Products (Chicago)‐makers of blenders
•
Switched jobs with friend from Wisconsin for West Bend
•
•
(38:40)Wisconsin
Worked for West Bend Aluminum Company
Became sales manager for entire East Coast in a product division
•
(38:58)Bissell‐Michigan
Recruited‐flew to visit plant‐turned down job
•
Met old man Bissell
�•
Re‐recruited by Mel Bissell‐President of company‐accepted job offer
Brother was also in military in the South Pacific‐flying‐served two tours as flyer of a
photographic plane‐given Distinguished Flying Cross medal (43:38)
(41:30)Military Experience overlook
Felt his experience was one of negotiations and no self preservation. He learned to get along with
people who helped in later on in sales service. No long lasting friendship but overall a good experience.
He is in favor of compulsory military for all people. Good idea to have training at all times for people to
know what to do.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LloydJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Lloyd, James (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lloyd, James
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Lloyds experience in the military began when an ample amount of recruits entering simultaneously and according to Jim the military had no idea what to do with the new recruits. From Chicago to Texas, the military was shipping him from base to base with no orders of why he was there. Upon his arrival they would always ask him why he was there and Jim would have no skills to assist each base he arrived at. He was used for positions as a teacher of gun torrents and advanced electronics which he was unprepared for but made the best of each situation. He was able to adapt well into military life regardless of their lack of efficient placement of his person. He was transferred around often enough that he never made it into active duty during the war. As the war ended he returned to life back in the states, where he returned to his wife and his family. His experience shaped his ability to adapt to changing circumstances but created no life long friendships from the military.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-11-17
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/22e173c50fa57a99a6c54f347b4d75b9.mp4
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/393250f6c0e72ddf9bf93271556aeeff.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Albert Lobbezoo (54:45)
(00:15) Background information
Born in Olean, MI and raised on a farm
His family moved to another farm in Caledonia; the town was so small that they did not
have their own high school
Albert was done with school when he was thirteen and then he helped his parents with the
farm work
(2:30) The Thirties
He remembers news of the war being heard on the radio; they often talked about the
bombing of London
By October 13, 1940 everyone had to register for the draft who was 21-29 years old
The country was not ready for a war and Albert believes that the US had a weak defense
system at the time
He and his brother registered for the draft together
(3:25) Active Duty
Albert was called to active duty in April of 1941
He took a train from Grand Rapids, MI to Kalamazoo and then went to Fort Custer in
Battle Creek, MI
He spent two weeks at Fort Custer and there was not much to do
Albert joined the 32nd Infantry Division and was transported to Louisiana in a train to
Camp Livingston
(7:20) Training Maneuvers
Albert went through combat training in the Red and Blue Army
They had to sleep outside on the ground for six weeks; they were trained for combat in
the jungle
Albert was assigned to the infantry and then was transferred into the signal corps and
worked on a switch board at the 32nd division headquarters
(12:25) Pearl Harbor
Albert had been on his way home from church when Pearl Harbor was attacked and he
listened to the report on the radio
The next day it was announced that the US was in an actual war and the men were all in
for the duration of that war; not the one year that they had registered for
They were all divided up and assigned new duties; Albert had to guard infrastructure that
the Japanese might bomb
�
While he was guarding a bridge some girls brought him a bottle of wine; the people in
Louisiana were all very friendly
(17:00) Massachusetts
Albert’s unit was transferred to Massachusetts in the Spring of 1942
He drove a “carry-all”truck from Louisiana to Massachusetts to help transfer equipment
and the trip took three days
He ended up at Fort Devens and then was sent to New York
When he got to New York he found out that the ship he was supposed to board had
burned in the harbor
So he then had to take a train to San Francisco because there was news that McArthur
needed more troops
(21:42) San Francisco
He was put in a hotel near the harbor and the men went all over the city
They did not have any duties; they were just waiting for their ship to arrive and it took 2
weeks
Albert then boarded the USS Anton and they passed by Alcatraz
On the voyage they ran into an awful storm
They traveled in a convoy and had to take a zig zag course across the Pacific to avoid
enemy submarines
(24:05) The Voyage
Many of the men played poker to keep occupied
Albert found that many of the men were naïve because they believed they would be
coming back home very soon
The voyage took 23 days for them to reach southern Australia
In Australia the men continued their training
They traveled North and were allowed to visit Sydney
(29:45) New Guinea
They took a liberty ship to New Guinea; it was a very nice ship, but quite small
The Australians were already on the island
Albert went to do his work on switch boards while many of the other men fought in
combat
He worked in a small secluded tent and heard much of the news of progress during battles
Most of his outfit left for Port Moresby and Albert later took a plane back to Australia
He had two weeks off to spend relaxing on the beach, then they had to regroup and
received reinforcements
�
They traveled along the coast of New Guinea to make sure that everything was still
secure
Then they arrived in the Dutch East Indies and met up with the 33rd division
(40:45) The Philippines
There were still about 1,000 [?] Japanese in the Philippines
They stabilized the area and traveled around more islands in the Pacific to make sure that
they were secure
Albert noted that many of the areas were almost completely destroyed and so they did not
have much contact with the local populations
The few people that they did see were all thankful to see the Americans
Albert set up a communications switch board in a small resort island
The war had ended and he was waiting for his notice of relief
He then traveled to Manila while the rest of his division went to Japan
He was just one of two men from the whole division that got separated and was waiting
in manila
They eventually boarded a small ship, which had been captured from the Germans, and
they headed for San Francisco
(45:30) Back in the US
Albert took a train to Chicago and was greeted very well
He went to work for the city of Grand Rapids, but it was too boring and he only lasted for
six weeks
He then worked at GM for a while, but missed farming work
Albert bought a farm across the street from where he grew up
Albert noted that being in the service makes you a more thankful person and allows one
to appreciate their freedom
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LobbezooA0515V
Title
A name given to the resource
Lobbezoo, Albert (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lobbezoo, Albert
Description
An account of the resource
Albert Lobbezoo grew up on a small farm in Michigan and was drafted in the Army in April of 1941. Albert worked as a switchboard operator for the 32nd Infantry Division headquarters in New Guinea, the Dutch East Indies and the Philippines between 1942 and 1945.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.)
BCTV
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
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Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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2007-10-25
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
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�
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Incunabula
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The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period.
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1450/1500
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Incunabula Collection (DC-03)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a>
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Incunabula
Printing 1450-1500
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text
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eng
it
la
nl
de
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Sermones de sanctis cum vigintitribus Pauli Wann sermonibus [folium 130]
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DC-03_130Lochmaier1490
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Lochmaier, Michael
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One leaf from Sermones de sanctis cum vigintitribus Pauli Wann sermonibus by Michael Lochmaier. Printed in Passau by Johann Petri circa 1491. [GW M18683; ISTC il00270000]
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la
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1491
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Seidman Rare Books Collection
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Text
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c0d41d64f2785c705337d6f676fa706.mp4
41dfeae6015eceb38e0ab23a684df2f5
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PDF Text
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Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke
Date of interview: February 7, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 1]
FRANK BORING:
What were you doing prior to AVG?
BOB LOCKE:
Well just before AVG I had the prop shop at Anacostia in
Washington, D.C. and was working in the prop shop and this
Commander came around one Friday afternoon and wanted to
know "do you know all about props" and I said of course I've got
the prop shop. He said "do you know how to work on the
governors?" and I said yes. He said "would you tear down a
governor for me?" I said "It's Friday and I'm cleaned up and I've
got liberty for the weekend and I" and he said "I've talked to quite
a few other personnel here and how would you like to go to
China?" and I said "China, what for?" and he said "We're forming
a group to go to China. We need propeller technicians." I said
"Well I don't know, I just started shore duty here and I've got a
good thing going." and he said "Well it pays $450.00 a month."
and I said "Well I'll think about it, I mean it's not the money, but
making $99.00 a month as a First Class here, I think I'd be glad to
go." I asked him who else he'd talked to and he said one of the
ordnance men, Hook Wagner and he said one of the mechanics,
Gallagher and he said Jackie White who works in the parachute
loft and Twisty Bent. And I said wonderful. Said when do we go?
He said "Well go to the Skipper's office on Monday morning and
go in and tell him you're supposed to get out of the Navy."
Needless to say (Monday morning at 8 o'clock we went to the
Skipper's office and he wanted to know what we wanted to see him
�for and we said we're supposed to get out of the Navy, we're going
to China. He threw us out of the office.) Well we got on the phone
and gathered together and we called New York, CAM CO and we
got a hold of the Commander and he said "Well I'll be down there
this afternoon. I'll get a Beechcraft and fly from Floyd Bennet and
I'll get down there as soon as I can." So we figured we got a raw
deal here. So he came down, we saw the Beechcraft land and pretty
soon we got called in the office. The Skipper came out of the office
and he says "Okay Herb, anything you want Herb. You guys get
your gear together. Get over at the State Department and get your
passports. Come back, by that time the paymaster will be ready
and you'll be paid off and you're on your way_, to China." So that
was how we got it.
FRANK BORING:
What was it that interested you? What did you know about China,
first of all before any of this?
BOB LOCKE:
Well I'd done a tour out there, I'd gone out there previously on a
short cruise, I went out there. I shipped in the Navy in '34 and did
two years in Panama and then I got a stint to go to China, but I was
on a kiddy cruise, which is before 21 years of age - one day before
you're 21 you can get out and make up your mind. As you ship in
at 17, you're what they call a kiddy cruise. So I went out there and
I couldn't stay out there because I was on a kiddy cruise. So I came
back. But that was my first seeing of China. Of course that was in
Singapore and we didn't get to see much of China properly. The
idea was that the way that they presented it to us, is that eventually
we're going to get into this conflict and that we need personnel out
there. He explained to us that it was a special order discharge from
the government, from the Navy. When it was all over and if we
went into the war or if you completed your contract by 1942,
which was a year's contract, we could come back and with no loss
of rank or rating or no loss of time - just that time was lost - but
that was the thing. So we agreed to go and of course it was
adventure. We didn't have any ideas of what was going on. We'd
heard a lot about that, but it was a good chance to do it.
�FRANK BORING:
Now you arrived in China by boat, what was the ship trip like?
BOB LOCKE:
Well we arrived in San Diego - I came to San Diego, drove to San
Diego and then our ship was going to leave from Long Beach on
May 21st and it was the 2 S.S. Zaandam, and it's a Dutch ship.
They were taking the Lockheed Hudson bombers that they'd got
lend-lease from here and they were going to Java. They were going
out there that way and that was how we got our transportation, it
was arranged. So there were 46 crew member, enlisted personnel
and crew members. It was a mixed· bag of some Army clerks and
they were mostly Navy mechanics and there were 16 pilots aboard.
Bill Bartling was in charge, he was the Senior Pilot and most of it
was Navy. As a matter of fact Tommy Hayward, Jernstedt, quite a
few were on board, Duke Headman, was aboard the ship. And that
was the S.S. Zaandam. Well, of course, when we got our passports,
they designated us different professions. I was a draftsman,
Gallagher was a hairdresser, Jackie White was a cook, Hook
Wagner - Hook went out as a – what do they call the ones that
work on women's - masseuse - that was what he was. Well we got
aboard the ship and when we got aboard they immediately said
"you're missionaries" so we decided we'd be missionaries.
FRANK BORING:
We'll start from the beginning of who was what, because when you
say masseuse we don't want to have my voice. That's good, that's
real good. So just start from - you were - the need for secrecy.
BOB LOCKE:
Well I went out and our passports said that I was a draftsman, and
of course I hadn't held a drafting tool in my hands since high
school. Jackie White was a hairdresser - no Jackie White was a
cook, Gallagher was a hairdresser, Hook Wagner was a masseuse,
this is how we went out. Of course when we got to the West Coast,
we all went down to get aboard the ship and there we were told by
Bartling, you're all missionaries. So we started out and by the time
we hit Honolulu and we had of course opened the bar every day
and all of the missionaries stayed out and we were in there telling
�jokes in the bar and they were listening to the jokes, but by the
time we hit Honolulu, we were turned into traveling salesmen. So
when we hit the Philippines we were back to missionaries and
when we got to Singapore, we had to wait there because we went
overland, we were the first group that went and we went overland
and caught another ship on the far side of - now it's Viet Nam - but
it was on the other side of the China Seas. When we were in
Singapore there was nothing to do, except the bar was open all the
time and you get tired of that. So we wandered around and I ran
into a mechanic that was flying the Brewster Buffaloes, he was out
there as an Aide with the Navy and they were turning the Brewster
Buffaloes over to the British. At that time, having nothing to do,
we tried to get acquainted with young ladies and of course we got
the cold shoulder. So one of the guys came up with the smart idea
and we let it be known that we were talent scouts and we were
from Hollywood and we were looking for talent, we were going to
have a dance contest on the following Saturday at the New World.
Needless to say, we had many people - "oh are you with this group
of talent scouts" - and "I'd like you to meet my daughter" and we
had it made then. Of course we had the thing and Big Jim Regis
was our photographer and took -film after film after film, panning
the whole thing and he didn't take one stitch of film because he
didn't have any film in his camera. When we got on the train and
we went with a bunch of British troops and across and Hanoi was
where we came out the other side and from Hanoi we caught a
tramp steamer and over to Rangoon, then up the Burma Road to
Toungoo, which the base had just been set up and we arrived in
Toungoo and of course nobody knew what they were going to do.
We sat around and they hadn't started to get the P-40's yet, they
still hadn't come in from the docks.
FRANK BORING:
What were your first impressions of arriving in Toungoo?
BOB LOCKE:
We heard that it was a valley of white man's death and there were
so many different brands of snakes out there. One of the statements
was that there were 99 poisonous snakes out there and out of the
�99 poisonous snakes, there's 100 total, but the 99 are poisonous
and the other one eats you whole, so we didn't know what - and of
course we'd heard about the Cobras. Well because of possible
bombing we had the barracks set aside from the chow hall and they
were long thatched type roofs - open with shutters so that we
would get fresh air or we could cut out the monsoons if we got into
the monsoons; which it rained continually, almost every day. The
temperature was in the 100's continually, the humidity was in the
110's, I don't know how it could, but it was - it was continual - you
moved, you sweat. This thatched roof, all kinds of varmints used to
get up in the thatched roof and at night you'd hear slithering and a
cobra would be up there and he'd drop down on the floor. Well of
course we had bunks with cots and mosquito netting and you'd
tuck them in underneath it. One of the guys – of course we had jing
bows periodically - one of the guys left his boots out with his pants
outside and we had a jing bow about 2 o'clock in the morning. Jing
bow is alert for possible bombing. He jumped up, threw on his
boots, pulled his pants up and in the crotch of his pants was this
scorpion and it hit him about 3 times real fast and Doc Rich had to
treat him to deaden the pain. Old Sutherland used to run into all
sorts of tricks - that was Sut Sutherland, that's where he got the
name of Sut. So we'd go to the movies at night. One night I went
over, we had the movies over at the chow hall, and I started over
and there was a path you usually walked around the roads or you
cut across, and I started cutting across with a flashlight and ran into
this cobra. He puts up his hood and I froze, turned around and
retreated back. But you couldn't tell where they were gonna end
up. The first day we arrived, one of the guys stripped off and of
course they had the bathroom in between two sections and bunks
on either side and this guy took off and went in there just with a
towel around him and started in the urinal, and they had built this
beautiful cement urinal. Well as he approached, 5 stretched out full
length in this urinal was this cobra, so he screamed and everybody
grabbed their guns, all types and sorts, and went in there and
started blasting at this cobra. Well we blew the urinal completely
�apart. But the cobra slithered out a hole and disappeared. Needless
to say, our aim wasn't very good.
FRANK BORING:
What were your first duties when you first arrived there?
BOB LOCKE:
First duties was to get gear squared away and set up the shops and
prepare for the planes which were going to come in at any time.
Some pilots started arriving and then our first aircraft came in. We
set them up, we had to put the radios in them because they were
completely bare and of course they'd just been put together to fly
up, just the initial flight up there. We had no guns on them or
anything like that, so spent all of the days preparing the aircraft for
actual combat. Mounting the guns, the radios that we used out
there at the time, because we didn't have too good a stuff, we had
automobile Motorola's and stuff like that that we were using receivers and stuff that were just adequate stuff. Most of the things
we put together and too, we were trying to train Chinese crew and
we were assigned so many personnel with us. They started the
operations and started training - training flights, we had a few
training accidents. One of the things they found out with this P-40
was that it had a fuselage tank and then wing tanks. Well what you
did was you took off on your fuselage tank, this was according to
the pilots - and you'd take off on your fuselage tank, then switched
to your wing tanks, then you would switch back onto your fuselage
tank on landing. Some of the guys would take off and take their
fuselage tanks and drain them, not switching. Well he'd start into a
dive and the P-40's would tumble, just tail over - just flip. Well
some of them said that was why we lost one or two like that and I
think it was Charlie Bond was the one that found out about it. He
was flying one day and he turned over and he got out of it and he
said that was one of the reasons why, that they concentrated on
balance, so of course with the extra weight in that nose, that old
Allison engine stuck way out. This was what we did, we spent
most of our time there. Of course, we'd go to town, the little town
of Toungoo and we'd go down to the railroad station and all. The
local Burmese they treated you as cumshaw - I mean they would
�baksheesh - which means present and they'd hit you with
baksheesh and all this. After the training we had our first raid in
Rangoon and planes came in and we shot some of them down, the
Japanese. At that time you'd walk into the train station and
everybody would stand around, women and everything, AVG okay
- bullshit - either they'd say "Okay'' or you know.
FRANK BORING:
How did you put up with the heat and the community and the
snakes and the bugs - how did you get used to it?
BOB LOCKE:
Normally you don't - the snakes and the heat and all that - the one
reason that we went out there was to - you'd shower as many times
as you could a day, but immediately you'd be soaking wet and our
uniforms, they used to starch them, well then we found out
immediately don't starch them - I think that we didn't drink it, but
we used more Bay Rum out there than anything in the world, and
of course being an old hand from Panama, where it was hot too,
we'd learned the old bottles, the quart bottles of Bay Rum, and
you'd take a shower and then Bay Rum all over and of course that
was one of the reasons you wouldn't get heat rash and all the rest
of it.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v01
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Locke, Robert P.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-02-07
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 1 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke describes what was doing prior to joinging the AVG, how he was recruited as a propeller technician, and his journey and eventual arrival in Toungoo.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c84b780cff405fea87e86433c780e8c.mp4
ca1f0213aec14387900633ad680030ed
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/172517f1a3eaaa2334fbd415041926d9.pdf
f7962fc5731b8b2a5e151fd75597eaf3
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke
Date of interview: February 7, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 2]
FRANK BORING:
See this is a safety I got from my dad.
BOB LOCKE:
Well when I came back from China that was a different
proposition. They said we'll give you J.G. in the reserves and I said
I wasn't reserve, I'm regular Navy and they said well we can give
you Chief again and I said fine, and the guy says, “What else do
you want?” - this was at the Bureau - and I said, “I've always
wanted to go to flight school”, and he said “You’re on your way”.
So the last flight physical I had was in 1939 was at Anacostia and I
went through flight school in '42 and I was graduated and two
weeks before I graduated the doctor says in.'42 he says "Say
Locke, I've been checking, when did you take your last physical?"
And I said "My physical or flight physical?" and he says "flight
physical" and I said "1939". So he gave me one real fast, he backdated it the day I reported to Pensacola.
FRANK BORING:
How did you put with the heat and the insects and all of that?
BOB LOCKE:
Well one of the things was that I'd been stationed in Panama and
it's hot down there and Bay Rum - we used to get the quart bottles
of Bay Rum and - not for drinking purposes but strictly after a
shower you'd put it all over you it would keep you fairly well
cleared and you wouldn't get heat rash and all of this. Normally
you'd try to find someplace where it was cool.
�FRANK BORING:
Which wasn't too many places I imagine.
BOB LOCKE:
Showers was the main thing.
FRANK BORING:
Once the airplanes started to come in, and as you say they were
going through training and some of them were crashing and
whatnot, what were the conditions of the planes? How did you rate
the planes? How did you repair the planes? What was the actual
work involved in getting those planes up in the air?
BOB LOCKE:
Well the work of course - armoring, you had to get the ordnance on
them, we had to install radios in them, then they had the training
things. One of the things that they had problems with was all these
Navy pilots were used to making 3 point landings, in other words
coming in and touching the wheels and the tail at the same time,
well when you're flying a plane like a P-40, you come in and you
make a transport landing, you come in and land on two wheels and
then cut the engine and then drop it down, because you don't - as a
matter of fact a few of the pilots almost washed out completely
because they'd come in and - old P-boat pilots - here they're used to
coming in at 20 feet in the air and rearing back on it and let it
settle, they'd come in in the P-40's and you'd see them periodically
and you'd say well there's another Navy guy and he'd come in at 20
feet in the air and chop it and it would sit there and shudder and go
kaboom. Well tires would go, gear would go and ground loops,
built in ground loops, this thing had.
FRANK BORING:
What was the interaction with those pilots? You're the one that's
got to fix these things if they break them and here they are
breaking them. What was the interaction between - they would
come and say what happened here or what happened there?
BOB LOCKE:
Normally, it was - you know when Chennault set this up, there
were pilots and there were ground crew and as he said, there’s no
rank in this organization. Pilots are pilots, they've got their job to
do, the mechanics have got their job to do and we're all working in
�a small compact group. He said we won't have any differences,
there'll be no saluting or anything like this and if you've got
anything to say, you settle it between yourselves. If a pilot makes a
boo-boo, you call him down for it because you're the mechanic and
you've got to do it. Well they respected that and it's a funny thing,
we got along well - real well.
FRANK BORING:
Can you give me an example of - not a confrontation - but
something that a pilot did or something that a pilot thought you did
where you resolved it?
BOB LOCKE:
Well, not a pilot, but there was - we had a Beechcraft out there and
we had this ex-first class who was plane Captain on the Beechcraft.
Well they came in and they ground looped the Beechcraft and bent
a prop on it. Well, being a prop technician, Ricks had sent me out
there. He was the head of the prop shop and he sent me out. Well I
went out and I said "Well McClure I think we can straighten these
blades and everything." and he got in a confrontation with me and
we carried it all the way through with the Flying Tigers because
every time I saw him, I'm a prop technician and I know my job and
he told me get away from his aircraft so this was about the only
thing that we ever had. Normally we didn't have time for any
trouble and I give credit to the people that chose this group to go
out there. One of the things was you had to be first class or
equivalent to go out there and the mechanics were well qualified. I
give them very much credit for the recruiting and the idea. We
knew our jobs and we did our jobs to the best of our ability.
FRANK BORING:
When did you first meet Chennault?
BOB LOCKE:
The first time I saw Chennault was - he came in and Williams and
Greenlaw and the rest of them came in with him and introduced
him. That was about the 4th or 5th night that we were there and we
just started to get squared away working on equipment because all
of that had to be shipped from Rangoon too and he said "welcome
aboard" and he was glad to have us aboard and everything like that
�and he said he knows that we're gonna work fine together and he
was very congenial. Of course we referred to him as the old man.
That was about the first time I saw him was just about a week after
we got there.
FRANK BORING:
What was your first impression?
BOB LOCKE:
Well I thought he knew what he was doing and of course being a
mechanic I had things to do and I didn't spend much time in the
offices with him. As long as you could stay clear of the old man,
you were doing your job - it was okay. If you weren't doing your
job the old man would call you out and he did. He didn't tolerate
pussy footing around, he didn't tolerate shirking. In other words he
knew his men and he knew his personnel.
FRANK BORING:
From Chennault came either instructions or - who usually carried
those out - was that Greenlaw?
BOB LOCKE:
Well Greenlaw was the exec and he'd pass things down. Williams
of course took care of the radio communications net. There were
different pilots in charge and we had different former Chiefs in the
Navy who were in charge of the working personnel, well they'd
pass word down that way. But I used to see the General and I
spoke to him quite often, the Colonel. And after we'd stayed in
Toungoo for quite a period of time, then we started with the
trouble and they had to get all that personnel out. They knew that
they had bombed Rangoon, they were gonna hit Toungoo and we'd
had quite a few fly-overs, so they figured that we'd move up the
road and by that time our base at Kunming was ready and we set
up a group of trucks, the first trip of trucks taking cargo and taking
equipment up and Wayne Ricks of the parachute loft was in charge
of this group and I was on the first group of trucks that went up the
Burma Road and from that, that group, we picked up the name of
the Burma Roadsters, we formed a club. Years later we were all
gonna get together, so we published stuff and all and that was quite
a trip up the road.
�FRANK BORING:
Before we get into more details about the road, what do you recall
and when did you first hear that Pearl Harbor had been hit?
BOB LOCKE:
As a matter of fact, we were in Kunming.
FRANK BORING:
Already?
BOB LOCKE:
That's right. We'd had raids down there and we were in Kunming
when we heard Pearl Harbor was hit. This truck group who went
up the road…
FRANK BORING:
Excuse me then I got my dates wrong. Let's talk about the trip then
on the Burma Road.
BOB LOCKE:
Well we started out and we went up and we had a different
conglomeration of trucks. We had Ford trucks, we had Dodge
trucks and we had Studebakers. Somebody had sold them a bill of
goods and we got a whole batch of Studebakers. No Internationals,
the British were still using these big Internationals. The Studebaker
was fine but it had soft springs in the front and with a 4 ton load in
the back of one of these Studebaker trucks, the nose would come
up and you'd start out and you'd get about 10 miles an hour and it
would start bouncing and you'd go from the roof to the bottom and
bouncing and then you'd have to stop and start again, and you'd
bounce, bounce, bounce. So most of us got out and we took 2 x 4's
and drove them in between the front springs so you had no springs
at all in the front, it was just dead. But that was the only way to
keep them from this solid bouncing. Studebaker trucks, one trip up
the road and you could wash them off - I mean we didn't try to except local trips those that made it - but they'd break the back of
them. Fords and Dodges, overloading, loading front - they'd break
the back. I mean you were hitting potholes that were 2 and 3 feet
deep. You'd hit them and you'd go through them, if it didn't blow a
tire, it would bust a spring. This was one of the casualties on the
road. You had all different nationalities driving. You had Burmese,
�Anglo-Burmese, Chinese, Anglo-Chinese, British - and each had a
different stint for driving on the road. The Chinese would go up
hills and of course hired, they would gas up and of course you'd
gas from drums of gas, different gas stops and the Chinese would
start down a hill, they'd reach up and cut of the ignition to save a
pint of gas and then they'd sell it up at the end of the road to get
money out of it. Well of course when you cut off the ignition, you
had no power brakes or nothing and they'd go screaming down the
hills and this was one of the constant things you were watching the
guy in front, looking for some guy trying to pass you on a road that
would have only one truck. And there's drop-offs all the way
down. It was a rough trip.
FRANK BORING:
When you arrived there, what did you find in terms of the
conditions? What were your feelings as soon as you got there?
BOB LOCKE:
At Kunming?
FRANK BORING:
Right.
BOB LOCKE:
Well it was a long tedious trip up the Burma Road and of course
through the roads of China, across the Salween River, through
Powshan and it was well over I'd say 2800 miles up the road.
That's from Toungoo up through Mandalay and you had all
different types of areas that you went through. When we arrived in.
Kunming, here was this beautiful hostel downtown. It was a former
school and it was a beautiful hostel. Well that was the Number 1
hostel and that was downtown in Kunming. Now they were just
setting up the second hostel which was closer to the airdrome. So
we took all of the stuff and put it at the airdrome and they were
still working on the mat when we arrived and the Chinese were out
there breaking rocks - big rocks and breaking into little ones and
then put them down and mud and then roll it - and teams rolling it.
They made a beautiful runway. Of course dust and dirt and all. But
we had no Marston matting which they used in World War II
�which would have been wonderful. But the Chinese did this all by
hand continually day in day out, rain, sun, anything.
FRANK BORING:
When you started to get settled in, in Kunming, what was your
routine like there?
BOB LOCKE:
Well the routine there was working at the airdrome, setting up the
prop shop, we had a prop shop which was between our second
hostel and it was an old Chinese Army base and we set up the
different shops there. We set up the prop shop and then one of the
first things we tried to find was a good shower, which we had and
excellent cooks. We had an overseas Chinese in charge of our food
and he fed us good and we had real good food. Now going up and
down the Burma Road, was of the things you learned was chow
fong, which was fried rice and if it was cooked, you wouldn't eat
the normal food, but you'd go in and order chow fong. That's what
I subsisted on all my trips up and down the road, was Chinese tea
and chow tong. As long as it's cooked, you don't have to worry too
much about it.
FRANK BORING:
So once you were, you mentioned earlier that you started seeing
observation planes.
BOB LOCKE:
That's right. They'd send observation planes over and we would try
to alert aircraft to get up and shoot them down. When they would
'fly over then we would get the word from the net, the fact that
there was movement coming in from Hanoi, they had taken Hanoi
by that time and they were moving in. And all the way from the
China border, the radio net would keep telling and you'd sit around
and they would have one ball, two ball, three ball, jing bow which was bombing. And it was your alert system. Well they'd run
up one ball and nobody would pay any attention. A two ball, you'd
start clearing out and a three ball meant it was imminent and they
were in the area and you didn't want to be in the city because they
were bombing the city or they would bomb the airport. So what
you'd do is you'd go through the city and get on the outskirts and
�on the outskirts in most of the cities in China, they have the
graveyards and you would go into the graveyards, because that was
- burying on the surface the mounds, you had almost a perfect
bomb shelter. And you'd lie back on this grass in the graveyards
and watch them fly over.
FRANK BORING:
Can you recall the first time you saw the cities actually being
bombed?
BOB LOCKE:
Well one of the trips they hit Kunming and I was on the outskirts
there. But I was coming up the road during Powshan, which was in
May I believe, early May, and I came up to Powshan, I had a tow
truck convoy with me, a Chinese driver and myself and I had
Kitten with me that day and I had parked and gone over to the
hostel and got food at Powshan hostel. I spent the evening there
and the following morning I was getting ready to go on up the road
and talked with some of the pilots and they had flown in a bunch
from down below, from Loy Wing and they had arrived at Pow
Shan airport and they were there and the pilots came in and they
were eating. We were talking and about that time the alarm went
off. When the alarm went off, pilots started to scramble and take
off and the airport is quite a ways away and they were gassing up,
and Charlie Bond is one of the only pilots I believe, got airborne
that day. He got into them. But they got over Pow Shan and there
must have been 20 or 30 aircraft - bombers. They came and we
immediately took off out of there when we saw them coming over
– and we said those are Japs and he took off and Benny Fuchet was
with me. We ran through the gate which was down about 1/4 of a
mile - or it seemed like a 1/4 of a mile then, but it must have been a
couple of blocks - but anyway the gate was there and we ran down
and went out into the graveyard, Benny Fuchet on one side of a
mound and me on the other and there was a little pond there. Well
they hit this pond with these grass cutters, which are bombs with a
stick on them, and the grass cutters came down and it blew me in
the air. I got a little piece of shrapnel in my chest and I came back
down and I says "You all right Benny?" Well he moaned over
�there. Well another fellow and myself ran over and Benny was
over there and both of his legs were blown off and must have got a
direct hit. We put him on an old door and took him back to the
hostel and Doc Rich worked on him, but it was to no avail. It was
really frightening. Well we stayed there and about that time - when
we first went out, you can dig with your stomach because they've
got these ditches that the water runs down from the mess hall, and
we immediately hit one of these. They're about 4 inches deep. But
we found that the safest place after the first lot came down, we
hauled [?] because there's intervals between the bombings.
FRANK BORING:
You had mentioned Kitten earlier and I didn't realize that you had
met her before all this went on. When did you meet her? Tell us
about Kitten.
BOB LOCKE:
Well one of my trips up the road - now of course as Chennault saw
me and being we had 5 prop technicians and we were tripping over
each other in the prop shop and Chennault needed somebody to run
truck convoys - in other words, single trucks or a group of trucks,
up and down the road taking stuff back and forth. He asked me if
I'd like to do it and I said sure and so I got an increase in pay and I
turned out to be running truck convoys. One of my trips down to
Lashio, which was like a border town - I mean the frontier
westerns – everybody had a gun, everybody was mixed. They
would go around, there'd be shootings, there was music going and
blaring. We came out one night after eating there in a restaurant
and these two Burmese drivers were coming up the road with this
cat - this Snow Leopard and they were towing her with a rope and
beating her with a stick and I told them not to beat on the cat and
they said it's none of your business, it's not yours, and I said, "How
much do you want for it?" Well they said 35 rupees. So I fished in
my pocket and gave them 35 rupees and took the cat and took her
over to my truck. Well I opened the canopy on the back of the
truck and put the cat in there and tied her on and these guys walked
up there with me and they saw I had a load of - of course we're
cumshawing anything we can - cumshaw is anything you can get,
�you take - and I had Eagle brand condensed milk, cases of it. And
one of the guys said, "What do you want for a case of the
condensed milk?" and I says 35 rupees, so I got the cat for a case
of condensed milk.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v02
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Locke, Robert P.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-02-07
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 2 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke discusses his experience doing mechanical work for the AVG aircrafts and working with the pilots. He also discusses his first impression of General Chennault and hearing the news of Pearl Harbor.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/38f72710619484b4a540c7f5d9a9ad39.mp4
b1cff18be432912942b84aaa4dffc946
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2712c5b275dc404d080b41be6681b8f1.pdf
111179c44446b1c9e5022285a21b7e6d
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke
Date of interview: February 7, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 3]
FRANK BORING:
So the story about Kitten and the soldiers.
BOB LOCKE:
Well, whenever we got to a town - you know driving up the road, it
took a long time to get there from one town to the other - we would
stop and live off the land at the time. If we didn't have a place to
stay, we'd stay in the truck, but normally, with all the equipment
and everything we would find a place to stay. Well anytime you
parked in a town, you'd try to park on the outskirts of town so that
in case of a bombing you wouldn't lose it. But people being people
would be very curious and we lost quite a few things. So what I
came up with was hiring - I'd go to the first military compound as I
went into town and I would hire two soldiers. And you'd put one
right at the truck and he would patrol around the truck, armed and
you'd put another one at about 100 yards away and he would stay
back there and watch the first one. Well if the first one that you
gave the job - if he got in the truck or tried to get in the truck, that
guy had his orders to shoot him, the one that was away. If the other
one out there tried to approach the truck, he had orders to shoot
him. And the Chinese – I’ll tell ya—one time I came up the road
out of Lashio and I was driving just a single truck and these
Chinese soldiers - a whole group of them, must have been a
company, there was a bunch of them, they had Mauser rifles and
all - this officer came over and he says, "I'm commandeering your
truck'' - to me, he explained it to me, and I said "[?] No AVG and
[?], which is going and he says, "That's right". Well he broke out
�this little 32 revolver and stuck it in my face. I reached down and
took my 45 and stuck it in his face and we were at a stand-off. And
he said, “yes” and I said, “no” and so he looked at the barrel of
mine and he looked at the barrel of his and he said "Okay, you go"
so it was things like this that we ran into making trips and it was an
adventure all the time. Kitten - one of the trips up the road, I was
going just after the Salween River Gorge and came up the far side.
Well you're curving from about 7000 feet down to the Salween
Gorge, across the bridge and up the other side and it takes hours to
do. Well these trucks are right hand drive, not left hand drive, and
Kitten had her side. She'd sit up there in the front seat with me and
had her window. Well this one day, hot and driving, and she
decided she wanted to get up behind me. Well she got up behind
me and started looking out this window and the first thing you
know, she was by that time about 110 pounds of her - and she
pushed me forward and I'm trying to drive the truck with my
steering wheel like this. I reached up and grabbed her by the scruff
of the neck and I put her down on the bottom of the truck and I
said "you stay there" and she went "haahh" and I said "Don't you
fizz at me, I'll show you who's boss." and I boxed her again and
she stayed down there. Well the road straightened out, I got at the
top and started down cruising along good, she came up and got up
alongside of me and put a paw up on my shoulder and rears up
alongside of me and looks at me and she goes sluuuurp, sluuurp,
licking the side of my face and I says “Uhhuh, I’ll show you who’s
boss” she rears back and she goes - powww - and she caught me on
the jaw and I’m telling you I had to stop the truck, both feet just
stop like this. Then she goes over on her side and typical woman,
she looks at me and says, “I’ll show you who’s boss.” So this was
just one of the times that she - she was a pleasure to almost all the
guys up there. Of course, some of them were afraid of her, but
most of them respected her and she was not too nice. She didn't
like women, so to speak. There was one story that - of course Olga
Greenlaw spotted her and Olga wanted her right off the bat. She
came over to the second hostel. And Olga wasn't even supposed to
come over to the second hostel. But anyway she came over there
�and she was in one of these white sharkskin suits. That was the
days when these white sharkskin slack suits - and she was a
beautiful woman. She came over and she said "I want the leopard"
and I said "no, she doesn't like women" she says "oh all animals
like me". Well we had her tied between two trucks. She went up
and she approached it and I said "Olga, don't go near the cat" and
boy about that time old Kitten jumped up on her with paws up on
here and started slurp and scared her so bad she broke water right
then! Just ruined that sharkskin suit. Well, needless to say Olga
went to the General and wanted the General to shoot the cat and he
said "you shouldn't have been over there." Well Harvey Greenlaw
started getting rough on me, so needless to say, Chennault called
me and says "you've got some stuff to pick up at Loiwing" so I got
in the truck and took off.
FRANK BORING:
You mentioned about the soldiers where you'd have to hire one to
watch the other and the other to watch another. But as I understand
it with Kitten on board now you didn't have to worry about that
anymore.
BOB LOCKE:
Well with Kitten aboard I had no problems anymore. I didn't have
to go by the military and she would just stay there. She wouldn't
stay in the front all the time, I'd put her back in between the load
and pull the curtain - the canvas tarp across it and she would stay
in there and I'd feed her outside, and of course she was tied in
there. Well we pulled into Pow Shan one night and got in there and
of course the curiosity of the Chinese - I had just put her in the bed
and I had fed her and put her down and she was inside between 4
Allison engines. Well there's not much room to crawl between the
4 Allison engines and I'd say about 18 inches. She was clear up in
the front near the bed of the truck, near the truck body. Two
Chinese crawled up in there and started up through there. Well one
of the guys that was standing there says "watch this, they don't
know she's up there" and they went up there - curiosity- and all of
a sudden [?] and boy they broke out of there and they came flying
out, back down this way, hit, turned in midair and hit, running and
�everybody scattered. She came out and looked around and it was
something watching this cat.
FRANK BORING:
What was your relationship with the Chinese?
BOB LOCKE:
The Chinese to us were wonderful people. We had no problems
with them. Periodically you'd have a run-in. Of course, at that time
Madame Chiang Kai-Shek had set up a 5 year new life program, so
all of the bawdy houses and all of that had been closed down.
About the only thing you had was to go down - and we used to
gather - on Tuesdays they use to make yoghurt ice-cream at one of
these places in Kunming and it was a favorite. We'd go down and
we'd get a suitcase full of Chinese money and go down there and
buy this yoghurt ice-cream and of course there was only so much
available. They were to me most wonderful. One case that I had a
problem was coming from the first hostel, going to the second
hostel, just as we started out through the middle part of Kunming, a
Jing bow - well Kunming was laid right alongside of a lake and a
Jing bow called out. Well, I was driving a jeep that day with no
windshield, the windshield was down and just as I started through
there, this guy with a yo-yo pole with - they had cleaned out the
cesspools - and he had this yo-yo pole with two buckets on either
end and he stepped out just in time and I just hooked him enough
so that he spun around and all this stuff went all over me and in the
jeep - I forgot about the Jing bow, I headed down and I think old
Musgrove was behind me because he followed me, and I went
down and I drove that jeep as far as I could into the lake and I
sponged off, but it still didn't do any good. He wouldn't let me ride
with him, he'd let me ride on the back of the jeep, but not in the
jeep. And you know for two weeks after that, every time I'd go to
the chow hall, I'd sit down to start to eat and all these guys would
get up and shove off. I took more showers in that two week period
- but I'll tell you it was horrible.
FRANK BORING:
How was your relationship with the British people? Either the
pilots or the – did they have mechanics and all that there too?
�BOB LOCKE:
They had some mechanics and quite a few, as a matter of fact, on
one of our trips we hired about 5 or 6 British mechanics when
Rangoon fell. We hired them and brought them up the road with us
because they had been abandoned by the British. I forget what their
names were, but Chennault took them on as members of the group
and they stayed with the group for a long time.
FRANK BORING:
Tell us about the fall of Rangoon.
BOB LOCKE:
Well I wasn't there at the time it fell, I was making trips up from
Kunming, so I heard an awful lot but I would rather that other
people that were actually there would tell you about that.
FRANK BORING:
Just about when you first got the cat, did you have to train or tame
the cat?
BOB LOCKE:
No, no. No there was no training it was just I guess from about the
age of – well about 26 pounds was when I first got her and of
course you had to cut her nails, but then you wore real heavy
leather gloves because she was a little frisky.
FRANK BORING:
There's a big difference between - you had a Chinese name for it –
but scrounging, trying just for survival, trying to find whatever was
available. In wartime situations sometimes stores are blown open
and things are just lying there, who knows where the owners are.
There's a big difference though between that kind of scrounging
and black marketeering. What did you see in terms of both of
those?
BOB LOCKE:
Well most of the time we'd go down and we'd have certain loads to
bring back and in observing - for instance on the fall of Rangoon,
we went down to different places in Mandalay and it was going to
fall down. Well they had go-downs, instead of warehouses in town,
they'd have go-downs, as they called them. They would be out in
the forest and they would be just like a cave with a big door on it
�and camouflaged. Well we would try to find out where these godowns were and when Loy Wing fell, we went down just before
Lashio fell and Loy Wing was - we went around the back road into
Lashio and we knew where two of these go-downs were. Well the
CNAC hostel, which was Chinese Air Line hostel was there. We
knew that the hostel had beautiful inner-spring mattresses. Well
Janski went down with his truck, an International, and he loaded it
up with these mattresses, a whole load of mattresses out of the
hostel. I got two of the mattresses, put them in my truck. But I
remembered where a go-down was and I went over there to this
go-down and blew the lock off the door and opened it up and
inside was Raleigh cigarettes, cases of them and booze, all sorts of
booze. Well I loaded by truck completely with all this booze and
put two mattresses up at the back. Well when we drove back into
Loy Wing, we came in and old Deal Williams, he was there and
some of the pilots and they opened the tarp off Janski's and they
saw all these mattresses and they said "What you got Locke?" and
I said "Well, I don't know'' and they opened it up and they said
"More mattresses" and I said "take the mattress down". Well when
they took the mattress down here's all this booze. They started
grabbing cases of this stuff and that was when Williams says
"leave it alone. Locke take-off up the road and use this" so we did.
I took it up and that was what we opened the second hostel bar
with.
FRANK BORING:
Let's now look at Colonel Osley - let's look at December after the
first battles, the 20th and the 23rd. Now your job became a little bit
different. It went from just maintaining and training some people.
Now you had a situation where bombers were coming over,
fighters were coming over, fighters were going up against those
fighters, shooting, getting destroyed or whatever. What was
happening during that period of time, once the battle started? What
were you feeling like, what kind of reactions did you have?
BOB LOCKE:
You mean after December 7th?
�FRANK BORING:
Yeah because the actual battles began I guess the 20th or so, so
that's the period I want to focus on, December, January, through
there.
BOB LOCKE:
Well one of the groups went down - I forget which group it was but I think the Third Pursuit went down and we were all up there at
Kunming preparing. The First Pursuit I know left to relieve them
later, but those first battles, being in Kunming and working up
there were a distance from the war, as we are today. You just hear
about it and there would be reports. We heard about Hoffman
getting shot down and losing him, Cokey Hoffman, and the battles
and how much they won and the pilots flying back up periodically,
who got hurt. In the meantime Kunming was being bombed
periodically and we would alert aircraft. It's real rough to explain,
it's just trying to find a hole and crawling into it, and that's about
all most of us did. We had areas that the planes were used to repair
and all were over in the trees and they never hit - being between
the airport, our prop shop was in a more or less camouflaged area
and we didn't ever get hit right there at the prop shop.
FRANK BORING:
Did you ever witness the bombing of the cities? I mean actually be
there and see the...
BOB LOCKE:
Well at Pow Shan of course I was right there when they hit Pow
Shan and bombed there.
FRANK BORING:
Why don't you describe that for us?
BOB LOCKE:
Well we stepped out of the hostel, we'd had lunch and looked out
and I said to Ben Fuchet, I said "Jiminy, look at that formation"
and he said "Those are Japs" and you feel like there's no place safe.
Every bomb looks like it's got your name on it. And anybody that
says they're not a Christian and not scared, both come out at that
time and it’s survival, is all it is. Well when they hit Pow Shan,
they killed over 10,000 people in that one bombing - because they
�caught them flatfooted. Everybody was in the city and there was no
warning at all.
FRANK BORING:
How did you react to that? I mean you'd had some contact with the
Chinese people, you'd been in town, you'd met some of these
people. What was your reaction - I mean I know you felt you were
in danger, but what was your reaction to seeing these thousands of
people being slaughtered?
BOB LOCKE:
Well it's like anything else. The whole thing is so dreadful. When
Benny Fuchet, when we took him in, there was one little Chinese
boy sitting over there waiting for his turn to be treated. Not a
whimper out of him, but his whole shoulder was blown off. I mean
his arm was gone and just a bare shoulder and he's sitting over
there by himself, waiting for somebody to treat him. Doc Rich was
working, the Chinese doctor was working, the local doctors were
working and it was just... war has never settled anything and it
never will, as far as I'm concerned.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v03
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Locke, Robert P.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-02-07
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 3 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke describes his relationship with the Chinese and British during his time with the AVG, in addition to the fall of Rangoon.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c20952006d0cf9333b4b3bf230edb961.mp4
180a60117d16fab008853682ae01c8ff
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/de60d260b9bf37b5b4f0ca451e876c1e.pdf
d004134bd71072a25608e9ff16c987ed
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke
Date of interview: February 7, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 4]
FRANK BORING:
The British stopped for tea?
BOB LOCKE:
One of the single trips I made up the road when we were coming
out of Toungoo, the war was in full earnest and of course Rangoon
had fallen and the British were moving north. Everybody was
doing a delaying action fight. Well, we had just left Mandalay and
between Mandalay and Lashio, of course as fast as you could go,
and I came along the river and, I think it was the Irrawaddy, came
along the river and there were a whole bunch of trucks parked nose
to tail, a whole series of them, British trucks. Well they were down
at the river and having tea and it's in broad daylight, about 2
o'clock in the afternoon. Well I've heard about the British and their
tea, but I went down told them "I don't know if you guys know it,
just about 2 or 3 miles behind me, is a whole group of Japanese
coming up the road." One of the things that the Japanese would do
is, a convoy would pull through, different convoys and they would
pull through into an area, the Japanese would come out of the
brush, get the last truck, kill the driver and then pull up alongside,
and as they pulled up alongside, they could annihilate a whole
convoy by just pulling up, blowing a horn, a guy will move over
and they'll knock him off. So there's different tactics that they used.
This day I pulled down there and told them that right behind me, I
don't know how far back - but a couple of miles at least, they're
coming. And I said "you better get underway." And they said "no,
everything is fine, we can depend on it, everything is fine." I
�bummed a couple of bottles of beer from them and it was hot, I
took my truck and went past their convoy, parked and put it in a
bunch of brush and bamboo and about a half a mile, walked back,
got the beer, went back down on the river and put the beer into the
river to cool it off, because they drink their beer hot. So I decided
to cool it off and while I was down there cooling off the beer, I
decided to go swimming and I went swimming for a while and was
floating around there having a good time and I heard shots back at
the camp. Well I'm about a quarter of a mile away from them. Well
I didn't even think about the beer, all I could think about was
getting out of there and I took off, went roaring back up there and
got in my truck and ended up in Lashio. I drove right straight
through. I think I drove in shorts - I don't think I even took time to
put any clothes on. But from another group that came up - you
know they'll hit an area and then they'll go back into the jungle and the next group comes through they find them. Well some of
the trucks came through afterwards, this whole group had been
wiped out. They had destroyed the trucks and they had completely
wiped out this whole group down there on this river bottom.
FRANK BORING:
What was this experience you had about being strafed?
BOB LOCKE:
Well one trip I was going up and just when Lashio fell it was
hurry, get out and go, I came through Lashio and just the other side
of Lashio, as you get into the Chinese country, in other words,
from Burma into China, they had a gas go down there. At that time
I had about 14 trucks with me, I had combined trucks. Sutliffe [?]
was with me and we were trying to hit for the Salween River
Gorge as fast as we could. I hired, at that time, my first overseas
Chinese, he'd been middle weight champion boxer, I found out
later at the International Settlement in Shanghai. He was running a
Chinese convoy. Well they were lined up at the gas dump with all
the drums of gas and here's his trucks lined up and I came up
behind and so I pulled right around and went up to the front of the
line and said "my truck's next." He argued with me and I said "how
much do you make?" and he told me and I said "I'll double your
�salary. When you get to Kunming I'll double your salary." He says
"Kunming nothing, you hired me now." And I took him right then
off the Chinese. He says "All you other trucks pull out of the way."
We loaded ours up and went by and gassed up. Just as we got the
far side of that trip, they started strafing. A couple of Zeros came
down - I guess it was Zeros, we didn't notice what type - but they
were firing at us. And what we did was pull down around the area
and here were Lame Ducks on the edge of an open - it's like
California walks and all and no place to hide, no place to hide at
all. They didn't hit any of our trucks but they made a sweep down
and about that time, out of the sky came a couple of '40's and took
these guys and ran them away. But they actually shot at us and as
we went across the Salween River Bridge, up the far side, I had
sent some of the trucks ahead of me, and Sutliffe was up there. Sut
had crashed his truck and he'd pulled over to the side, his engine
was ruined and everything. One of the guys passing had run him
into some boulders and had ruined the truck and he had been
strafed. There were bullet holes in the truck. Well it was like riding
your horse and riding by and grabbing him. I said "I'm not gonna
stop because I've got this other side to go up." So I slowed down
and he threw his gear in and away we went. That was the day that I
had Kitten with me too and he shared the seat with Kitten.
Depending on who was the biggest, he got the window.
FRANK BORING:
The incident that has now gone down in history is the Salween
Bridge – was one of the last events of the AVG before they broke
up. Can you tell us as much as you can about what happened there?
BOB LOCKE:
We knew that they had mined it. They had gone ahead, they'd
mined the bridge and they had warned us that they were going to
do it. Well we were still trying to get as many people as we could
out of Loy Wei and the Salween River Bridge was one of the only
ways that even the soldiers could get across. Everybody was
retreating up the road. Well we went down the hill as you came
down from 7,000 feet cutting down and taking an hour or two to
get down to the bridge, crossed the bridge and I believe that I was
�one of the last trucks that got across the bridge, because just as I
was going up the other side, they blew up the bridge and it fell at
that time. Well some patrol had got through, because from the far
side they hit - I had a truck with some Allison engines in it - and
they hit the truck. I don't know mortars or whatever, they hit my
truck and I took off just running as I could to the bush. Well I went
all day long. I didn't have Kitten with me, I'd left her up there
because I'd flown down there to bring a truck up and I took across
country. The first day I came to an area where there was a cave up
in the side and there was a ravine down below and I crawled into
this cave, which was on the side of the wall. There was hardly any
room to stretch out and of course I'd been driving for 7 days,
practically no sleep. I was afraid I'd go to sleep and just as I got in
this cave, I thought well it's really bad, but this patrol is chasing
me, I'm sure they're chasing me. They made camp right down
below and it's a Japanese patrol and they made camp right down
below and about 10 feet above me they had put a guard up there.
Well, if you think you don't have any faith, I was in this cave, I
was sure I was going to go to sleep and I said "Good God, what
shall I do now?" And just as clear as I'm talking now I heard "Fear
not, my son, for I am with you." And I'll tell you, faith in the
foxholes, you've got it.
FRANK BORING:
The bridge was blown by the Chinese - right?
BOB LOCKE:
It was blown by a team of Chinese - yes.
FRANK BORING:
If you could just describe, just before they blew it, what you saw as I understand it was just packed full all along the Burma Road?
BOB LOCKE:
Well it was packed full and people were on both sides. One of the
things was you'd try to pick up if you had room on your truck,
you'd try to pick up anybody that you could and take them up. But
the one thing that you didn't do, leaving Lashio one trip on this
hectic time - a Mongi [?] Priest jumped up on the back of my truck
and I had about 10 or 12 people on there already - they were the
�ones that would - they were very sympathetic with the Japanese and I told him to get down and he said no and he broke out his gun
on me. Well here I went up and got my Tommy gun, went back
around and burped through the air and I says "Get off." and so he
did. I'm afraid that I would have cut him down because he could
have destroyed the whole truck. But the Salween River Gorge, the
day that I went across there was a lull in between. They'd taken a
lot of people. And then this other group was coming down and at
that time we didn't know who they were. But they started shelling
me as I was going up the far side, so undoubtedly they sent a patrol
after me. Now this patrol, two days later, this night I woke up in
the morning and they were gone. So I followed them for the next
two days. Every time they would stop, I would stop. And you can
live off the land under a rock you can get a grub, you can get water
from blades of grass. But I lived for two days just existing like
that. The third day I came across a Chinese patrol, because I passed
them I figured I was getting someplace and the Chinese patrol
annihilated this group of Japanese that were chasing me. Now
these are things that were in the war diary, Olga wrote this stuff. I
don't know if it ever came out or not.
FRANK BORING:
How did you communicate with the Chinese soldiers? Did you
have one of those patches?
BOB LOCKE:
No. I had no patches. I had the regular Chinese uniform, but we
had the Chinese insignia. I had the Chinese - a little slip that was
authorized and of course my I.D. card which showed who I was, an
AVG I.D. card with my picture.
FRANK BORING:
Did you find that most of the people you met or talked to or had
contact with the Chinese specifically, knew who the AVG were?
BOB LOCKE:
Yes, they really knew who the AVG were. They knew the
difference between the British and the Americans. Normally an
American, I don't care where he is, he stands out like a sore thumb,
especially in a foreign country.
�FRANK BORING:
What was the Chinese reaction to you as an AVG - once they knew
you were AVG? Was there a difference in the way that they dealt
with you?
BOB LOCKE:
No. They knew what we were there for. They knew our airplanes
and even driving trucks, you'd pull into a little town and the people
there were very courteous to you, as they always are. Of course
they want to sell you things. The teahouses, we'd go in and order
food and living off the land as it was, I found that fried rice, chow
fong, was about the favorite food. I ate more fried rice than
anything. There you know it's all cooked and then your hot
Chinese tea. It's all prepared for you.
FRANK BORING:
Towards the end - before the AVG disbanded, there were rumors I
understand that the AVG was going to disband - of course your
contract was going to run out since you were the first group. Could
you tell us about that last month or so and then leading up to when
Bissell finally arrived?
BOB LOCKE:
Well we knew that the war was going as it was and we had got
word ahead of time. Chennault had gone down to talk with
Stillwell, who was down in India. Chennault was given a Colonel's
commission back into the armed forces. Joe Stillwell was fighting
a battle there. Doctor Seagraves was treating and working with Joe
Stillwell at the time. I saw Doctor Seagraves quite a few times.
Loy Wing was about to fall. I made one of the last trips down there
and the General was down there, he'd returned. From Magway
some of the pilots were flying in. I remember this day, Schilling
came in and he came in on one of the CW Curtis-Wright 21's that
they had built at Bangalore and built at Loy Wing. Well it looks
like a Zero and we were sitting around expecting a Jing bow any
time and all of a sudden, down at the end of the field, over the
mountains, came this plane making a low-flying run at it. This is
something that a lot of people probably remember that we all broke
from the ready shack and - I don't know what I was doing down
�there away from my trucks at the time - but I was down there, and
General Chennault was with me at the time. We ran out to jump in
the slit trenches and there was no room, so we saw one over
alongside of it, not far from it and the General Chennault and I ran
over and jumped in it and it had been an outhouse and they had
moved it and we were knee deep in this stuff and when Schilling
came down, we both ducked down into it - I mean it was horrible.
But he came out of there and we were sloshing this stuff around,
and I know Tex Hill - I think it was - he ran out and got in a jeep
and ran out there before Schilling could make a turn and come into
the ready shack. He told him "you'd better go on up to Kunming,
the General's pretty mad."
FRANK BORING:
So towards the latter part, you had heard rumors that you might be
inducted back in. What led up to - when Bissell finally arrived what were you hearing and then what happened when you met up
with Bissell?
BOB LOCKE:
Well July 4th was set for our retiring date. In other words, we'd
completed our contract, those that wanted to go into the service,
the General had talked to us and most of us had agreed to go into
it. I was Navy and I think I would have been offered a Lieutenant
J.G. in the Navy or the reserves if I wanted to stay. Of course we
would stay six months to continue after and then when the Army
Air Corps took over, we could return to the States and it was all a
beautiful promise. Our planes were getting low, the personnel were
getting tired, most of us wanted to get back to the States and get
back into our own organizations, but this six month extension
wasn't too bad. So the party was arranged for the July 4th and we
had quite beautiful food and all and the Generalissimo - the first
time we got in contact with General Bissell, he came over with
Colonel George and an Aide and it was a Sunday and we were at
the first hostel having a ball game. They came up and we were
sitting on the steps of the first hostel, resting between the innings,
and this Aide came up and says "'ten-tion" and we sat there for a
minute and looked up and said "what do you mean "ten-tion?" He
�says "On your feet - Attention, the General's coming." And we said
you don't tell us what attention is and we concentrated on that
pretty rough - well we were proud of the fact that we had done a
good job and we were all companion feeling of the way we were. I
don't think that there was a man out there at that time, if the
General would have said "cut off your arm at the shoulder" - I
don't think he would have questioned it - he would have done it.
FRANK BORING:
So Bissell finally arrives?
BOB LOCKE:
This was the first day we saw Bissell. This was just before the
party. Well, at the party, there were many speeches and many
toasts and we had a wonderful dinner. Then General Chennault
stood up and he said "I think that it's one of the most wonderful
things in the world of you men staying and I appreciate your
support, I know that you want to get back to the States and you'll
go as soon as possible and I appreciate you almost en masse,
staying with us." Bissell stood up and he said a few words and
complimented the General on things and then, all of a sudden, if he
would have just spoke and sat down, everything would have been
fine, but the first thing he did, he eyeball to eyeball, here's a bunch
of ex-Navy men, he says "well, if you didn't volunteer to stay, I
could have had you drafted." Well, with that we got up en masse
and walked out and that was the time that this group - a lot of them
left. As a matter of fact, the first transportation out of there, the
General talked to most of us and asked us if we'd stay two weeks
extra to check the Air Force and Army Air Corps out, which we
did. I had Sergeant with me that I showed the trips down to the
different ways of running the truck convoys and this was my job.
Went to the prop shop, Ricks had shoved off and gone down to
Bangalore in India, so I showed him the prop shop and I was able
to secure and that was it.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v04
Creator
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Locke, Robert P.
Date
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1991-02-07
Title
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Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 4 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke discusses the historic incident that took place at Salween Bridge, the last month before the AVG disbanded, and the arrival of General Bissell.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14b23bb2a91057101cdb344a71e621b9.mp4
dd58a4a96b79aa0b9b9e4b11e086ed8a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5f48fe102bc5ad9945ae7d8175d6266.pdf
70a275604c42fa5ad5fcfef4a6049d28
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke
Date of interview: February 7, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 5]
FRANK BORING:
The baseball game.
BOB LOCKE:
This Sunday we were having, as recreation, a baseball game and
this staff car pulled up and out of the staff car came - looked like a
Captain - came charging over there to us and weeded through and
yelling '"Ten-shun, 'Ten-shun" and I guess we should have jumped
up, but we were sitting around on the steps and having some iced
tea and he says "Don't you hear me, I said Attention?" and one of
the guys said "What do you mean attention, we're civilians, we
don't have to stand up to attention." Well General Bissell, I
suppose, Colonel George came up with a smile on his face and he
weeded his way through, Bissell came behind him and he weeded
his way through. We may have given a little bit for that star, but
still and all it was our first contact with Bissell. As we say, you
know who is giving the orders and you know who is back taking it
easy when the rough stuff is coming through. I don't think, as a
whole, any of us objected – we had heard rumors that he was going
to be there - and of course, Chennault had been out there fighting
all this time and Bissell had been in the States. Well, when General
Chennault, as a matter of fact, he got a spot promotion of
"General" at the time "Brigadier" and he - of course Bissell
outranked him and Bissell was overall in charge of the Tenth and
we didn't like this - of him just moving in and taking over. I think
that we were a little jealous of the way they treated the General at
that time.
�FRANK BORING:
At the party?
BOB LOCKE:
Well then, on the July 4th on the completion of our contract, we
had a big at Kunming. A lot of the pilots and a lot of the personnel
were stationed elsewhere, but those of us that were still in
Kunming, we were invited to this party and at that time we were
given the scarves, like this one over here. They were given to us by
the Generalissimo and there were awards, recognition for endeavor
and General Chennault stood up and he made a speech and he said
that he was so proud of the group, the fact that all of us, almost to a
man, had agreed to stay for a six month period and go into
whichever force we wanted to go into. As I was going back into
the Navy. Each one would be assigned to stay and then in six
months they would fly us back to the States and then we would go
back to our regular forces. After he spoke and the applause, then
General Bissell stood up and he was introduced and General
Bissell started and he praised us for our staying with the General
and honoring and working with him so well. Then he hit us with a
bombshell. He said "Of course you realize that if you didn't
volunteer, I could have you drafted." Well this was whack! It hit us
- and I think en masse, the whole group stood up - because most of
us were either ex-Marines or ex-Navy and drafting - we didn't even
know what a draft was in those times. Well we stood up en masse
and walked out. So the following day or the following next two
days, we were around in the different areas at #1 hostel and #2
hostels, some of the guys arranged transportation and left, because
our contract was completed. The General called a meeting and he
had us over at the first hostel, those who were left, and he asked if
most of us would volunteer to stay for a two week period extra
because here came a whole group of Army Air Corps personnel,
who had never been in contact with the enemy, they didn't know
how to fight, they didn't know the lay of the land, they didn't know
where the different things - even the ground crew didn't know
where stuff was - we agreed to stay two weeks extra. They
guaranteed us that they would give us a flight out to India. Make
�arrangements and we'd be flown back to the States if we stayed
that two weeks extra. This was with the bidding of Bissell. So
Chennault promised us, we figured it was good. Well, the war
made a turn for the worse, it seems, because when we completed
the two weeks, and at that time even Sandell was lost in this two
week period staying over, he had just married Petach and he had
married Emma Jane - our first wedding out there - and married the
nurse - and he was lost and this was another blow to most of us.
Our morale was low, all we could do was try to get out of there.
On the flight out from Kunming, we flew into Dinjon [?] and then
Karachi. Well between going over the hump - I remember I was in
this C-46 and there was a Colonel sitting alongside of me, well
most of us had gone down and drawn parachutes and we had our
parachute, and this Colonel was sitting over there, had his
briefcase, but no parachute. Well we were flying over the hump
and about that time this Colonel - the pilot calls the Crew Chief up
and he says "we're gonna have to start throwing stuff out, I don't
think we're gonna make it over the top and everybody put on your
parachute." Well he starts looking around and he turned to me and
he says "Give me your parachute" and I says "Not me, this is my
parachute, I drew it." He says "I order you to give me your
parachute." I says "I'm not in your army Dad, no way are you
gonna get this parachute." Well the Sergeant was there and he
ordered this Sergeant Crew Chief to give him his parachute. He
talked to the pilot and in the meantime the pilot figured that we
were still doing all right and we had thrown a bunch of cargo out,
but we didn't have to bail out and so we were over the hump and
started down the other side and he'd given the Colonel this job. So
we get into New Delhi and we landed at Dinjon, got out of the
aircraft, threw our parachutes on our shoulders and started
trudging. Operations were about a half a mile down the road. Well
this Colonel left the parachute there and the pilot came out and he's
a Captain and he says "Colonel you left your parachute" and he
says "No, that's the Sergeant's parachute." "No sir'', he says "when
you took that parachute away from him, that's your parachute, you
take it down to operations." And he took off carrying this
�parachute and I'm telling you he got down there and his hat was
flopping around his ears - it was something good to see.
FRANK BORING:
So what happened after you left?
BOB LOCKE:
Well from there we went on and we got another flight out of there
into New Delhi. At New Delhi that was where they dumped us.
There we had to make arrangements on the local train from New
Delhi to Karachi and we rode the train night and day to Karachi,
India. You talk about abandoned children, we felt like abandoned
children. Some of the guys had made arrangements to go to work
at Bangalore at the factory down there and the rest of us all we
could think about was getting home. So we got into Karachi and as
a group, hit Karachi, went to a hotel and stayed a couple of days,
but it was a little stiff on the pocketbook and we didn't know how
long we were gonna be there. We saw ships come in, unload, and
they'd take off and we figured oh maybe a day or two we'll be
aboard a ship. We had to report to the American Consul and the
Consul said there is no way of transportation, we haven't any
transportation. We said we were promised flights back and there
are no flights going back. The war in the Mediterranean or
someplace had changed for the worse. We asked and were given
permission to go to one of the outlying fields there, which was an
Army Air Corps field, and we stayed there in tents and we were
free to go anytime we wanted. It was the first Coca Cola's we'd
seen for about 14 months and I'll tell you those nickel Coke
machines, we just scoffed those things. I think the first Coke I had,
I think I drank six in one standing and still didn't quench my thirst.
So we, later on with nothing to do, go to movies - there was a local
movie in Karachi, and one of the days we were there at Karachi
waiting to go, we went to a movie and I forget what it was, but as
all movies they first played "God Save the Queen" and everybody
stood up. Now you're a mixed brand of military personnel and with
the AVG too. Well I was in the balcony right on the edge of the
balcony and there was a sailor standing alongside of me and I
learned later, a Canadian sailor too. We stood at attention while
�they played "God Save the Queen". Then they struck up "The Star
Spangled Banner'' and right behind me, a Limey booed and when
he did, the sailor grabbed him and threw him bodily off the
balcony and a battle royal started. Well, I turned around to this
Canadian and reared back and I though "well this is it, it's fight or
faint" and so he says "Wait a minute, Yank, I'm one of you" and I
said "What do you mean you're one of me?" -and he says "I'm a
Canadian" and I said "Good" and about that time the whistles
started blowing, the M.P.'s started coming, he and I ran around,
jumped in the box to box and down on the stage, and out the back
stage door. You know in 1959 I was in Kingstree, South Carolina
and I told this story and I noticed this guy that I had never met
before in my life. He was an electrician, worked for the electrical
company there. He glanced and his face turned and he says "You
were there?" and I said "Yes" and he said "I was the sailor that
threw that Limey off the balcony and I spent the night in the brig."
So you see it's a small world - the things that you travel through.
One of the other instances, going up and down the road, we had a
group that was from the Embassy up in Chun King and they were
furnishing and bringing supplies up for the Embassy and one of
them was a Lieutenant, a Senior Grade Lieutenant that had been on
the Tutawheeler, and the Tutawheeler down in Singapore or
Shanghai or someplace had been sunk, and they were up there.
Well they had 3 trucks that they used, enlisted personnel and this
officer in charge of them. I would meet him on the road and we'd
swap food and swap stories and swap different information. He
would stop at our hostel. But all I knew, I just knew him by name
and called him "Lieutenant". When we left and came back to the
States and I rejoined the Navy - I shipped over in the Navy - I went
to the Bureau and it took us from July and the later part of August we waited around in Karachi to try to get out of there and we
couldn't. So we decided, these ships coming and going, Sutliffe
and I got a smart idea and six of us got together and we went and
we hired camels on Saturday, which was a holiday, but we knew
that the Embassy was there and we got in front of the Embassy and
rode around in a circle on these camels with a bottle of whiskey
�and here both of us have beards and saying "The American Consul
is Shit" and we kept screaming it out. Well, this was our first time
of rebelling and we rebelled real good and eventually it took about
a half hour or maybe 3/4 of an hour, but the American Consul
came out and made arrangements and we were loaded aboard the
Mariposa in the following days and we were on our way back to
the States. But this was the only way we got to come back.
FRANK BORING:
Looking back on it now, what do you feel about those days that
year that you spent there? How do you feel about that?
BOB LOCKE:
I thought it was one of the most fulfilling and gratifying times of
my life. The companions that we met are more closer than family.
As I said, we get older, we're down to less than 100 I believe at the
present time, that still go to the meetings and we're coming up on
our 50th anniversary and I'll tell you, in 50 years we as a group, the
American Volunteer Group, are closer than blood relatives and the
wives also. Any of these reunions that we have, if we didn't agree
and we couldn't have the money or anything, the wives would
come up with it because they love it just as much as we do. Now,
with that, we've got the children and the grandchildren are coming
up now. No, I don't think that there'll ever be another group like
this. I think that there's a wonderful comradery with personnel in
the service, but I don't think that there'll ever be a group of
volunteers that come up like this ever again.
FRANK BORING:
What do you feel the AVG as a group accomplished in that year?
BOB LOCKE:
You know after Pearl Harbor with the loss of alt the ships, we had
shipmates that were lost at Pearl Harbor. Though it's a distant
thing, we were continually getting our butt knocked off. The
Flying Tigers, as it was said, a small of group of personnel, a small
group of men, with a small group of aircraft, obsolete aircraft,
aircraft that our military didn't even want that we got lend-lease
through the British didn't want it, a consignment of aircraft which
lend-lease paid for twice I believe, once to the British and then
�once again when we were taken over by the Army Air Corps, they
had to pay the Chinese for those old dilapidated aircraft too, so
typically, this is one of these things that you run into believe that
the AVG gave the spirit to the American people. It gave them a
sense of relief, the fact that we can win. I know that through the
war I was back in the Navy, I went to flight school as an enlisted
pilot, I came out of flight school, reported to the West Coast as an
enlisted pilot. I ended up in a utility squadron but I flew in the
Navy for years, retired in '58, married a Navy nurse and I'll tell
you, I think the background that we have, the teachings, the spirit
that we had, has stayed with the American people and it will, it
will give them that incentive that when you want to you can really
do it and with just bare nothing.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
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1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v05
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Locke, Robert P.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-02-07
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 5 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke describes the events that happened during their final days in the AVG and his overall feelings on their accomplishments serving as Flying Tigers.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f96352c72ea93ac9168cd70cf43aa6da.mp4
4fda1c45bde5ca3d0b598556478ff561
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4311733f892ae029b1fce75fe5288681.pdf
8d44b22f87873640afcf32838ffbe190
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke
Date of interview: February 7, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 6]
BOB LOCKE:
With round trips up and down that road, I was most of the time, on
my own.
FRANK BORING:
Where did you get the name "Burma Bob”?
BOB LOCKE:
Well they hung that on me because as truck convoy, running truck
convoys back and forth, most of my trips were up and down the
Burma Road. I forget who – I think it was Sutliffe say "Bob you
sure make a lot of trips up and down this Burma Road, I guess
we'll start calling you ‘Burma Bob.’" And so there it hung on me
and with, as I say, 39 round trips up and down the road, I guess it's
appropriate.
FRANK BORING:
What happened to Kitten?
BOB LOCKE:
We were going up to Kwei Lin, they had moved a group up to
Kwei Lin which was up around Chun King and I was going with
Janski - a two truck convoy - we were taking equipment up. Well
Kitten was on my truck and she'd got restless riding in the back so
when we stopped and put her in the back and tied her between
some engines that we were taking up and she was in the back of
the truck and it was just about a day and a half out of Kunming,
heading north, just about noon, we were strafed. I believe - I know
that they made about 2 passes and when they did we saw some
trees up the road further and we were hauling for that and Janski
�pulled up right behind me and started blowing his horn and I
looked in the mirror and he was motioning to me to pull over. So I
thought possibly something had happened. Well I pulled over, got
out of the truck and walked back and Kitten had jumped out of the
truck and busted her neck and she was dragging behind the truck.
At that time, it really broke us both up, but we had dug a grave and
buried her alongside the road and put her food pan on top of it and
that was the last we saw of Kitten.
FRANK BORING:
Some of the pilots and people in the AVG have sort of stuck out at
least in terms of journalists writing about them and all that because
of their behavior or whatever. Can you tell us anything about Greg
Boyington?
BOB LOCKE:
Greg was quite a good guy. At the second hostel he was transferred
over there from the first hostel because I think that they couldn't
close the bar over at the first hostel as long as Greg was living over
there. So they put him on alert at the field and he stayed at the
second hostel. In my trips up and down the road, Greg had a nose
for booze, I don't care where it was and anytime you broke out a
bottle, if he was around you'd figure that you may as well - you're
not going to put it away, you're not going to save any of it - it's
gone. So I know, one of my trips, I came up the road and I just had
got a whole batch of stuff and I turned it in at the first hostel and
out of it I got a couple of bottles of Scotch. I didn't drink at all but I
used to like to keep it for medicinal purposes for my friends and I'd
have one drop in once in a while. So I had this booze and I came
back in the truck and got over there and snuck in and put it under
my mat and - our bar over at the second hostel had been closed
down and old Greg Boyington came singing down through there
and banged on my door and he said "Hey Burma" and I says
"Yeah, Greg?" and he says "You got a bottle in there?" and I says
"No Greg, I'm going to sleep" and he'd say "Come on now" so he
came in and I said just one drink and he says "Just one, I just want
a nightcap.” Well then he sits around and after killing the bottle, he
decides that he wants to wrestle because in the academy he had
�been a wrestler. Well, he says "how about let's wrestle a couple of
falls" and I said "no I don't want to do that" and he'd say "come
one" and I said "okay just one fall and then that's it'. Of course he
gets up – our hostels are made of woven bamboo or reed and then
they're plastered over with mud and they're about that thick. He
goes over to a wall and puts a fist right through it like that and
you're not going to tangle with anybody like that. But it was one of
the nights too, I remember, one of the pilots was living over at the
second hostel. He had been over at the first hostel and closed the
bar, came back in his jeep and parked it and of course as I said
before, I had Kitten between two trucks on a run wire and a big
crescent moon was over there and everything was quiet and
beautiful, warm evening and this pilot came back singing, walked
by within range of Kitten and he was gassed to the eyeballs. We
were sitting over there and watched him. He came along and about
that time off the back of this truck came Kitten and jumped on him
and started slurping and slurping and he was cold sober that fast!
FRANK BORING:
Do you know why Boyington left early?
BOB LOCKE:
Well Boyington, as I say, he had some differences with different
personnel and his consistent drinking - there were some problems
that came up on that, I understood. Greenlaw - Harvey had gotten a
hold of him and told him that he'd have to quit drinking or quit
flying and the crux of the whole thing was that problems had come
up. I think that maybe a little footsies was going along with Olga
and I know that they used to go over and play poker over there,
and Boyington was one of the favorite poker players over there. As
I said before, Olga was a beautiful woman. Anyway, he told
Harvey he says "I'll tell you, I can go back in the Marine Corps and
drink and fly." So he took off and went to Karachi to New Delhi not Karachi, but he flew over to New Delhi and my understanding
was that Olga took all of her jewelry and everything she had and
followed him and went over there and said that she wanted to go
back with him. But of course this could have been rumors, but I
know she was gone for about two weeks and she came back. But
�Boyington went on back to the States and of course, when I was in
the South Pacific and flying later in the Navy, I heard of Boyington
being captured. But he had set a very good record back in the
Marine Corps for himself and periodically in the last few years,
before he passed away, we used to see Greg periodically. But one
of the misconceptions of the whole thing was that Boyington was
given a dishonorable discharge. Because only the General was very
emphatic - only those that completed their contract with the group
and stayed until July 4, 1942, were given the members of the
Chinese Air Force Flying Tigers and they were the only ones that
were recognized as the American Volunteer Group.
FRANK BORING:
What was the presence of Olga like around that area? I mean here
she was, she's a beautiful woman, you had a whole bunch of young
men running around.
BOB LOCKE:
To all of the ground crew that I know of, unless there was some
select group, it was - well, very uncomfortable. I had no problem
with it at all because it seems like I was doing my job and I'd been
in the Navy and I'd been aboard ships before and abstinence didn't
kill me and as long as you worked hard and kept busy, there was
no problem. We cherished Foster, the nurses, Dorian Davis, who
was one of the girls that came in, that worked with the General and
with different ones it was no problem to me, as a matter of fact. I
saw her and that was it. She was a beautiful woman, but I had no
desire.
FRANK BORING:
Did you ever meet Madame Chiang Kai-shek?
BOB LOCKE:
Oh yes.
FRANK BORING:
What was your impression of her?
BOB LOCKE:
She was one of the most beautiful people that you ever saw. She
spoke English with a southern accent and of course she had gone to
school in the south. She was a lady - well Ma Davidson down at
�Loy Wing who took care of the hostel down there - she was
another lady. Recently when my wife and I were volunteers and
went to Viet Nam, my wife came out there and I was working out
in Viet Nam and both boys were there. My wife worked at the
USO and, as an older woman, it's a funny thing how military
personnel liked to be around one of their own kind. Not because of
their desire for them, but the desire to be with a respected lady.
FRANK BORING:
Well you met the Generalissimo, but he didn't speak English. What
was your impression of him when you saw him?
BOB LOCKE:
Well the Generalissimo was quite distinguished, the Chinese
adored him. We met him with awe and his thumbs up deal that he
used to do, the Madame was really the go-between. They came in
just before this reunion, before the final Chinese Air Force plane
came in and landed at Kunming. Well as we used to do, any flight
that came in - CNAC - we'd go out and greet the plane and look at
the stewardesses or we'd climb up on the steps and make believe
we were taking off on that aircraft. A group of us were out there
one day and this plane came in and this beautiful Chinese lady
came out. Well some of the pilots and some of the ground crew
gathered around her and talked and somebody said "LOCKE:, how
about using your jeep?" and I said "Sure, I'll drive" so they were
going to take her to tea over at the second hostel and we did, we
loaded her in the jeep and drove over to the second hostel and got
over there and she sat around for must have been 15 or 20 minutes
having tea. Of course the room boys and the house boys all knew
who she was too and they were just in awe. But she was the most
gracious person you ever saw. Then within about it seemed years,
but it must have been about 30 minutes maybe, General Chennault
and the Generalissimo came in and said "I'm sorry boys but we've
got to break up this up. Madame Chiang has to go now." And boy,
I'll tell you – I think that most of them knew who she was. I didn't,
all I knew was that she was the most - it was just wonderful to be
around such a beautiful, gracious woman - just to hear her talk.
�FRANK BORING:
What do you think the AVG did for the Chinese people?
BOB LOCKE:
Well I think that the Chinese people figured that they were losing
the war, they were being overrun by the hordes, step-by-step they
were retreating. I talked to one of the Chinese Generals one day
and I asked him "what if the Japanese come in here and we're gone
and they come in. What will you do then?" and he says "the more
Japanese come in and we retreat and first thing you know the
Japanese stay and they take over and maybe one generation, two
generations, three generations - pretty soon no more Japanese, all
Chinese again." So I think that the Chinese people are adaptable, I
think they thought that AVG was wonderful. I know to this day
when I've been to - we made trips to Taiwan and we've seen
Chinese groups that knew us at that time, the overseas Chinese
who have come to the United States periodically, they'll recognize
either seeing our insignia or something that we're wearing that
identifies us as former members of the AVG, the Chinese just love
us and we, in turn, think that they're a wonderful people and we
were glad that we were over there to be able to do what we did.
FRANK BORING:
What were you personally most proud of, of what you did with the
AVG?
BOB LOCKE:
Survived. Was able to survive, was able to come back knowing
that I'd done a good job, I was proud of what we did, I was very
proud of the group and to a man I don't think that there's one
person that was out there that I'm not proud of and able to say that
I'm sure glad I was able to survive and come back to the United
States and make a career, complete my career in the Navy. At this
age now I look forward to every one of the reunions, to get
together and swap stories with the group.
FRANK BORING:
You have this feeling of pride and you know what you
accomplished and it's obvious from everybody I've ever talked to,
but yet the military at the end there, they acted as if none of it
happened. How did you feel about - you'd been fighting this war
�and these guys are coming over from the States and telling you
what to do and saying we're gonna draft you. What was your
reaction to these guys?
BOB LOCKE:
You take what people tell you - at that time when we were proud
of the fact that we were fighting, doing a job, we were given those that were knocked down to their knees a chance to recover
and we knew that the American people would take over and come
right back. One of the things that military personnel – I shipped in
the Navy as I said in '34 - I made a career of 26 years in the Navy.
A career regular Navy man is like a home guard. The people that
win the wars - anytime one of these wars comes up - the only
people that win the war is the man on the street, the one that comes
in, the reserve. We would have never won that war, World War II,
if it hadn't been for the Okies who came to California in the 30's,
who settled out here and scrounged and did anything that they
could to make a living and then when the war started they were the
ones right there in the front row doing the war factories. The
citizen soldier is the one that comes in, sheds his blood, if he
survives, goes back as a civilian and makes this country what it is.
It's not the military career man, it's the reserve that has it and God
bless 'em.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v06
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Locke, Robert P.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-02-07
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 6 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke discusses how he received his nickname running truck convoys up and down the Burma Road, in addition to his sense of pride and accomplishment as a Flying Tiger.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25757e26c866915ca684c7e24682c4f5.mp4
06a299d5e5c5d17eec18ee92e0b36f32
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6bdf3df9d5a61ce496667119ae5d1a6.pdf
8a25330dab9c5ed381c71df1ddf4c5ba
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke
Date of interview: February 7, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 7]
FRANK BORING:
We want to try to convey to the audience that it wasn't just a matter
of Bissell getting up there and saying we could have drafted you
and you walked out, but why was it that that happened is because
you had all these things that you were doing, all this fighting you
were doing, this day-to-day no sleep, constantly working and then
the loss of people like Sandell, you had these two weeks where you
go okay after that two weeks, I'm out of here and it had to be, as I
see, it like this light at the end of the tunnel.
BOB LOCKE:
Well as I said before, we continually - every time an airplane came
in - that was a reach at home, even though it was just flying within
country. They'd come in there, we'd go down, we'd greet it, we'd
meet it, bum cigarettes if they had any American cigarettes or
anything else and the war had started and progressed, we had many
morale times. There were lulls. This was not a continued fight all
the time. There was recovery. One squadron would go down to the
front and work and the other one would come back up and it would
be a rest period. There were differences of - I can't say who started
it - but Charlie Bond was involved in it at one time - of trying to
instigate discipline through rank and one of the guys ordered one
of the crewmen to do something and it almost ended up in a fight
and I think that there were times that there were verbal squabbles.
But as I said, I didn't run into much of this because 39 round trips
up and down the Burma Road, I was busy. I would come back up
and maybe spend 2 or 3 days at the prop shop working around
�there and then I'd get a call from one or the other, normally it was
the General ordered me when to go. Greenlaw had it in for me
because he was sure that he put Ceder on my tail many times and
Ceder was his intelligence and he put Ceder on my tail many times
to try to check and see what I was bringing up the road. Chennault
told me, anything you bring up here you turn it over to Tex Hill or
you turn it over to me, it's not to be turned over to anybody else.
Many times I would be met before I got into Kunming proper, Tex
would drive down there in a jeep and check the loads and check
what I had and sometimes I would turn the truck over to him and
go back up because Tex had use for the stuff. I don't know, the
deception that you ran into periodically, normally I would - if the
General didn't order me out, I'd go up in about 2 days and I'd say
"Don't you think I ought to go down the road. I know where there's
a go down, I can get some stuff." I continually liked what I was
doing. Besides I was getting per diem for driving back and up and
down the road too.
FRANK BORING:
You had a lot of contact then with Chennault on a one-to-one
basis? Why don't you give us a better idea of - I mean he was your
Commanding Officer but you also had a great deal of respect for
him. Give us an idea what it was like, you're in the room with the
old man and what was he like to work with and to talk to?
BOB LOCKE:
Well one time - remember I told you we got the booze down in
Lashio and we brought it up and we opened the bar in the second
hostel. Well before the bar was officially opened, it was gonna be
an official opening, so that was with Roady and quite a few of the
others, Kemp, that was stationed over at the second hostel. We
went in and we broke a couple of bottles out that we had of our
self, we took pictures of the bar and sat around and had it all ready
to set up for the following day. During the night, after a few drinks,
we all went back to our rooms and somebody went in, to this day
wouldn't admit who it was, but we did know, and somebody broke
in and stole quite a lot of the booze. Well Greenlaw put Ceder on it
and started an investigation. This is one of these deals that they
�cornered us and said you were there and we know you've got to tell
who it was. Well I said I'm not telling anything. Well on the spot
Greenlaw fired me and I said you can't fire me, I work for the
General. And he said well you just go in and see the General
because I'm recommending that you be given a dishonorable
discharge. We lost Metasavage at the same time. There were quite
a few others, this dissention, a low point of morale, no work to do,
supposed to be resting and spies among the group. It didn't help. I
went to see Chennault and I told him Greenlaw says I'm fired and
he says "Well what he's trying to do is get out who-was it that
broke into the liquor and took it." I told him, I said "General, that
liquor wasn't bought by the AVG, that liquor was provided by me,
I brought that liquor up the road, I turned it all over to the group, as
I bring everything up and turn it over to the group." And I said
"For a person to want me to snitch on somebody else that I'm not
positive of, I'm not about to say." And he said "Is that the final say''
and I said "Yes Sir, I don't want to leave, I honor you and I think
that you realize how I feel." And he said "Well forget what Harvey
said, I'll tell you what, why don't you get your truck and get your
Kitten and why don't you take a trip down to Pow Shan and pick
some stuff up and see what you can find." So with that, I got out
from under it and I did numerous times.
FRANK BORING:
What was he like to work with, you're in the room with him, he's
telling you what he wants you to do. What was the interplay like?
BOB LOCKE:
The interplay was that you could tell the old man anything that you
wanted. Don't try to lie to him and don't try to cover up, don't
speak too loud or don't speak too soft because he was released
from the Army Air Corps because he was deaf, supposedly. I've
seen many a times when somebody would be called in before the
old man and walk out and as you get to the door, "the old son of a
bitch", and he'd say "I heard that" so he could hear when he wanted
to hear. He was a father image to most of us because he was older
than most of us. He was a career officer and I don't care, discipline,
he was discipline per se. He, as I said before, if he said jump, we
�wouldn't question how high, we'd jump, or if he'd say cut off your
arm, you'd cut off your arm. Though he was fair and I think this is
what he really had. You don't see many of this type of personnel.
Patton I believe was one. With me, Admiral King was one, he was
the Admiral, he was over all Admirals. But when it came down to
down and out things, he would respect your knowledge. I know
Admiral Tomlinson, I knew him when he was a Lieutenant
Commander and many the time I'd tell him things and he'd say
"LOCKE:, as an officer to an enlisted man, if you're right I'll
apologize to you in front of the whole crew, if you're wrong you'll
go aft till your hat floats and I'm gonna step on it." So usually,
you've got to be positive with what you had.
FRANK BORING:
With Chennault, a lot of people talked about the first time they
ever met him, there was like a charisma about him, there was
something that set him apart from anybody else. Did you feel that
as well?
BOB LOCKE:
Of course. He was not God, but he was the closest thing to it and
he was not your father, but out there he was the closest thing to it.
He had a sense of understanding. The only place I ever saw him
real rough was when somebody would refuse to carry out a direct
order. For the benefit of the whole, he would still say he didn't
want to do it and boy the old man would get up in arms. But I'll tell
you, he was fair and the only time he would really let his hair
down was on the baseball diamond, and boy! He did then and he
was a good player.
FRANK BORING:
My mother once told me that even in a crowded room or a party,
when he talked to you, you felt like you were the only person in
the world.
BOB LOCKE:
That's right. Stood out like a sore thumb. We had many visitors. I
know I saw him periodically, he'd have people in and of course
dignitaries would come in and they’d come to the different messes.
If we were closer to the second hostel, they’d come over there and
�they had a certain table that the General sat at. I'd sit there and I've
watched him. One day this Britisher came in and he was talking
and continually talking. Well the old man liked to be in command
of the talking. He sat there and all of a sudden he reached over and
he took one of these peppers and he shakes off the stuff, puts it in
and just chews it down and took another one and chewed it down
and didn't blink his eyes and this guy says "What are those?" and
he says "they're Louisiana peppers, you'll like those." And he
offers them to this guy and the guy took one, bit if off like that, he
gagged and drank water and tried to do things and he sat there the
rest of the whole meal and didn't say-a word. Chennault had full
command of the conversation.
FRANK BORING:
If I were to look at Chennault, he was sitting in this room, what
would I see? How would you describe the man to look at?
BOB LOCKE:
Well I would describe him as "The General", that's the way I
would describe him. Even if he didn't have the stars on his
shoulders - in 1948 I wrote to the General. I'd got through and I
thought he was in New York at the time and I wrote him a letter
and I said "I know that you probably don't remember me. I'm Bob
Locke, I ran your truck convoys for you" but I said "I thought I'd
bring you up to date, I'm now a Lieutenant J.G. in the Navy and
I'm married and I have a family and I'm a pilot and as a matter of
fact I saw Tex Hill down at Eglin Field when I finished flight
school and flew over there in an old SNJ and he hadn't flown an
SNJ in years and he borrowed by SNJ and flew it around the field."
So I received a letter back from the General and he said "Bob, of
course I remember you. Congratulations on being commissioned. I
knew you were a good man. The Army's loss was when we lost
you, but I know that you're doing us proud in the Navy and
congratulations on you and your family and best regards and I'm
passing this letter on to Tex." So these are things that - even in '57,
my first reunion when he was there, and though he was dying of
cancer at that time, he was still the old man and the General. And
here again, people, families, the people at Ojai and everything,
�would come up and "Pardon me, General could we take a picture?"
not "could we take your picture with you" it was children,
anything. He was very gracious and always seemed to have time
for them.
FRANK BORING:
As I understand from the people that I've talked to, there was a
down-to-earth, even though he was a General or at that time a
Colonel, 'even though he was the Commanding Officer, when he
spoke to you it wasn't as if you were being spoken to like a regular
Army guy would talk to you or a military guy, how did he talk to
you? When he was going to ask you to go somewhere did he say
"Bob, we're going to have you do this, do this, do this" or how did
he actually talk to you?
BOB LOCKE:
Normally he'd approach it, he'd say "Are you busy?" and you'd say
"No" and he'd say "Well I understand that there's some equipment
that we can use, do you think you could get it?" and I'd say "Sure,
General, I'm positive I could." He'd say "do you need any orders?"
and I said "no I can carry it out by myself." And he'd say "Well
remember if you have any problems, I don't know anything about
it." And I'd say "That's fine Sir, it's okay by me. I'll get it if it's
possible." He realized that I'd had quite a lot of experience in this
of - when you work in different shops in the Navy and you've got
certain things to do, you've got to go around and cumshaw. Before
World War II, 3/4 of our planes were kept in the air on a crosscountry and stop at an Army field or Army Air Corps field, you
needed something, it was cumshaw. You scratch mine and I'll
scratch yours and it was the same out there. We did an awful lot of
scrounging. And if we didn't, we wouldn't have survived. Because
the way that things were tied up, in Rangoon for instance, all that
stuff that we burned on the docks at Rangoon because it wasn't
released to go up the road and because all the things have to be
there, not just one piece missing. Can you imagine us completing in Vietnam we used to lose more stuff - but still and all we would
still go on and we would issue what we had left and it's the only
way that a group can survive.
�FRANK BORING:
Please explain about the fact that - not that many people are gonna
know about it that you have a shipment of something, if one thing
is missing you don't get the whole thing.
BOB LOCKE:
For instance, you get a consignment. Say there's 100 jeeps. All
right, they come out on consignment on ships, maybe there's 50
jeeps on one ship and there's 50 jeeps on the other. In off-loading
or something they drop one over the side. Okay, they turn them
into the go down, the guy that's in charge of the go down or the
warehouse, he has a consignment that says 100 jeeps, there's only
99 jeeps. Until that one jeep shows up, the British would not
release the consignment. We had truck tires, we've had airplane
tires, we had to have them shipped in - the Navy flew in tires to us,
because they were down there on the dock but one complete
consignment was missing.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v07
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Locke, Robert P.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-02-07
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 7 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke describes what it was like working so closely with General Chennault and the effect he had on those around him.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
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video/mp4
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eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a74633eafe5771947aa6c482e8900d15.mp4
bf68b0e11b4f9ab13a8e0a9ea0a43ab5
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a3f9acc70072b83d0d8acc4552c9cc1c
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Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke
Date of interview: February 7, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 8]
BOB LOCKE:
One of the things that we seemed to run into in China was, as I said
before, the companionship, the trust that we had for each other. We
did our jobs to the best of our ability, we were continually
recognized for being able to do a job. But you want to realize one
thing, this was the first time in most of our military experience and though we were civilians - that we were being paid - all of our
salary was going, except what we paid for our food - was going to
a Chase National Bank in New York. As long as the AVG was in
force, we were working, but in the back of our minds we knew that
July 4, 1942 was our final day of our contract. We had done a good
job, we knew we had done a good job. The publicity in the States it seemed that the morale was building up in the States. And we
were starting to get an influx of prior Army takeover of the group.
They would come in, they would be invited - of course we were in
the second hostel, the first hostel, we'd hear about the parties that
would go on every night, there would be a party over there, they
would be toasting some dignitary, they would bring them out to the
field or the prop shop and they'd show them around - we're in
throw-off outfits, we've been working hard to try to get things
done, we've scrounged gasoline, we've scrounged parts, we've used
baling wire to keep these aircraft together and some of the pilots
went over and got some P-43's. Before they got back, here we were
having replacement aircraft, before they got back, the Chinese
pilots that were flying them back, crashed them. I mean just stupid
blunders. It's such a waste. And this was a waste that we had been
�tying things together. Well, this was one of the times that morale
went down. Each flight that would come in, they would have
American cigarettes. We had been smoking - those that smoked
would have been smoking the British cigarettes. The Raleighs that
I got at the Go Down all those Raleigh cigarettes, we found out
that 3/4 of them had worm holes in them and to smoke them you
had to play them like a flute. So morale - when you're left without
– but in the back of our mind we knew and we were proud of what
we did, the job that we did, not just hearing it. Clair Boothe Luce
arrived just before this fiasco on the 4th of July and she was there
and she showed us copies of what went on. She showed us proof
and she came around and she was just as gracious as anything.
Taking notes and asking "what do you do" and "where did you get
this cat" and all of these things. So we gave her that information.
She was there about 48 hours and she was gone and we liked to
feel that eventually we would be given credit, which we were. But
as I say, when Bissell whapped us with this one, that was when
morale went to the deepest and especially Sandell who was lost
there and Imogene Hanks married to him, not knowing that she
was at that time pregnant, luckily, that he did have a child. This
crushed us. As youth does, I guess, I was close to 26 at the time
and I didn't figure too much, I just figured I'm going to be out of a
job. There was a lull. Then when we got over to the West Coast of
India and were told we couldn't go back to the States and figured
how we would get back, these are the things that - well, we fell
back into the old position of we're going to have to create for own
self, a way to get out of here and we created it.
FRANK BORING:
On that trip back after your experience with Bissell and not really
knowing what to expect, your reaction to the American Embassy
was rather novel, going over with the camels, what were you
feeling like during that period of time, were you feeling frustrated,
were you mad, were you angry?
BOB LOCKE:
Well frustrated, of course we were frustrated. Really frustrated
because to see ships come in, we knew, we had already figured we
�couldn't fly back to the States. Pan American was busy and
dignitaries and stuff like that. As a matter of fact, I'd already made
arrangements, the China Air Lines was gonna fly Kitten, they
would fly my cat, before she was killed, they would fly her to
Karachi and from there Pan American - I had already made
arrangements - they were gonna fly the cat back to the States for
me. So this had been taken care of. But to get down there - have
you ever walked down to a dock and watched ships come in and
unload and then they'd steam out into the sunset - well that's
periodically, every day we were watching. Ships would come in,
they'd offload and we knew, high in the water, taking off and going
out, and we knew they were going right back to the States and we
were told "I'm sorry, there's no transportation, none available"
continually. This is day in and day out and we found out through
the grapevine and through direct orders that about two days before
we pulled this fiasco down in front of the Embassy, we found out
that Bissell had put the orders over - no military personnel would
give any assistance to the AVG group, no way. The can come onto
the base, if they come in to eat, they pay for it, if they do this they
pay for it, if they want transportation, they pay for it. There'll be no
staff cars given to the pilots, there'll be nothing. You'll be given
nothing. Cause I'm gonna have their butts right back into the
military and I'm gonna have them over here. And that's the word
that got out.
FRANK BORING:
What was your reaction to that?
BOB LOCKE:
The reaction to that was some of the guys quit and went to
Bangalore. Some of the guys tried to - as a matter of fact, Bob
Blair went down, he was on the same ship but he didn't get on at
Karachi. Bob Blair got on at Bombay because he went down to
Bombay trying to get out of there. Quite a few of the pilots
finagled a group and went down there and they were waiting down
there when we came through. Once we got on the ship, though, this
ship was going back and the only passengers were about 45
American nurses, U.S. nurses that were, as they say you can't be a
�little bit pregnant, but some of them were just a little bit pregnant
and different reasons. They psychologically couldn't set up with it
and there was a Major in charge of this group and I accompanied
her all the way back to New York. So I had no problems really, as
a matter of fact I fell into it and came up smelling like a rose.
FRANK BORING:
I think it would be good if you'd explain about the wedding, the
fact that two very close friends got married and then they
volunteered to stay afterwards, had a major effect and died. So
start with the actual marriage, the fact that they were asked to stay
on and they decided to stay on the two weeks and then what
happened to him.
BOB LOCKE:
Well we had two nurses out there and Emma Jane Foster was very
friendly with one of the pilots and that was Petach. He was one of
the Squadron Leaders and they struck up a romance and one thing
led to another and the first thing you know we had a wedding. And
as it was our only wedding out there at the time, a lot of the fellows
were envious of the fact that there went our nurse because she had
always been with the crew as much as with the pilots. She would
associate and here's the contact of the female/male contact that it's
just nice to have around. But when Bissell made his speech and put
the kibosh on us staying out there, we were asked to stay over for
two weeks extra and many of us agreed to stay. Tex Hill, of course,
was gonna stay there, Ed Rector was gonna stay there, which he
did anyway, Peter Wright stayed, Rosbert stayed and Petach had
agreed to stay for the two weeks extra. Some of the pilots will have
to tell you which flight it was, but the 3rd or 4th, and we heard
through the grapevine down in the crew level, we heard that they'd
gone on a raid and Petach had been shot down and this was a great
loss. P. Green and R.T. Smith, I believe, accompanied her back
and I believe they were flown back to the States. Just overnight
these things happened in this way.
�FRANK BORING:
There's one other question that we didn't quite get addressed. What
did Chennault look like? How do you describe his face and his
demeanor and all that?
BOB LOCKE:
What did he look like?
FRANK BORING:
They called him old leather face so I was just wondering...
BOB LOCKE:
Have you ever looked in the business end of a bulldog? Well that's
just about what Chennault looked like. To me you can visualize,
here was a rugged jaw stuck out, leather face - I think they used to
call him leather face because flying in open cockpits all that time,
your face turns to leather because of the weather hitting you
constantly. But to me you could sit in a chair and look at him and
talk to him, and you could see father, you could see a gracious
person, you could see a rigid General, and then you could blink
your eyes and look again and it was just like looking into the
business end of a bulldog.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
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Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
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Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
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English; Chinese
Type
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video; text
Identifier
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RHC-88
Coverage
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1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v08
Creator
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Locke, Robert P.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-02-07
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 8 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke discusses the final days of the AVG and their difficulties returning to the United States.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/95a6b0ff5ed76327d1fc2690609cd12e.pdf
ca634a646d8c202078698b21d4a3c4b0
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History Collection RHC-23
Mrs. C. L. Lockwood
Interviewed on September 14, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tapes #5 & #6 (41:37)
Biographical Information:
Katherine Maria Pantlind was born 25 December 1888 in Grand Rapids. She was the
daughter of James Boyd Pantlind and Jessie Louise Aldrich. Katherine married Closson
L. Lockwood 10 November 1909 in Grand Rapids. She died 16 March 1976.
Closson L. Lockwood was born 22 January 1879 in Grand Rapids. He was the son of
Closson L. Lockwood, Sr. and Frances E. Wycoff. He died 10 December 1944. Closson
and Katherine Lockwood are both buried in Oak Hill Cemetery.
James Boyd Pantlind was born 20 January 1851 in Norwalk, Huron County, Ohio, the
son of Ralph Nevius Pantlind and Catherine McGorgon. He came to Grand Rapids with
his uncle, Arunius Voorhees Pantlind in 1874. J. Boyd Pantlind married Jessie Louise
Aldrich on 14 April 1880 in Grand Rapids. He died 25 December 1925 in Grand Rapids.
Jessie Louise Aldrich was born 1 January 1858 in Grand Rapids, the daughter of Moses
Vail Aldrich and Euphrasia Jones Ledyard. Jessie died 15 August 1936 in Grand Rapids.
Both Jessie and J. Boyd Pantlind are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery.
___________
Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. C. L. Lockwood was recorded September the
fourteenth, nineteen seventy-one. Now, why don’t you say a couple of words or
something, to see if it’s recording?
Mrs. Lockwood:
Oh, I see. What do you want me to say, it’s a nice day?
Interviewer: Something like that.
Mrs. Lockwood: It’s a beautiful day.
Interviewer: That’s fine.
Mrs. Lockwood: What about what I like and enjoy?
Interviewer: Good, that’s fine. Maybe, the question that I’d like to start with is, do you
remember a Moses Aldrich?
Mrs. Lockwood: Moses Aldrich was my grandfather.
�2
Interviewer:
Do you remember him?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, he died before I was born.
Interviewer:
Oh.
Mrs. Lockwood: He died when my mother was married. He’s been dead many, many
years.
Interviewer: Oh.
Mrs. Lockwood: No, I never knew him. And my grandfather, my great-grandfather was
still alive, William B. Ledyard, when I was born, but I don’t remember him.
Interviewer: Now, Ledyards and Aldriches did they come here?
Mrs. Lockwood: They came from Plymouth, Michigan
Interviewer:
I see.
Mrs. Lockwood: My grandmother was a Ledyard, she was Euphrasia Ledyard, and she
married Moses V. Aldrich. Moses Vail Aldrich.
Interviewer: And he was the mayor of Grand Rapids?
Mrs. Lockwood: Mayor of Grand Rapids many, many years ago. I’m awfully sorry, I
don’t remember him, I forgot to get his picture when I was there.
Interviewer:
When were you born, if I may ask?
Mrs. Lockwood: I was born in eighteen eighty-eight.
Interviewer:
Eighteen eighty-eight?
Mrs. Lockwood: I’m eighty-three years old. Back in way, way back in the history of
Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: What was it like where did you grow up as a child?
Mrs. Lockwood: I grew up on College Avenue, one thirty-four College Avenue. It’s
now part of the Hillmount [Apartments].
Interviewer: Oh, yes
Mrs. Lockwood: One thirty-four is on the south side of the street.
�3
Interviewer: What was it like in those days?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, the way early days?
Interviewer: Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, the early days I had the goats, and I use to drive the goats back
and forth, up and down the street, I even drove them downtown. My Father ran the
Morton Hotel. I’d tie the goats to a telegraph pole and I’d go in and get a nickel and I’d
go in and get a soda at the Church & [Wick?] Drug Store and then I’d come out and drive
the goats home. I was only about fifth grade. But there were no streetcars. There were
streetcars, but there were no automobiles. And of course, I avoided the streetcars.
Interviewer: Why was that?
I didn’t like the streetcars and my goats didn’t like them either. And they were very, very
stubborn, my goats. They’d go out and sit right down, in the harnesses and wouldn’t
move at all. I’d get the old buckboard and I’d drive up and down the street.
Interviewer: How many goats did you have pulling your cart?
Mrs. Lockwood: I had three at one time, but only two on the cart. When, I was a child, I
wanted to ride everything; I rode everything in the neighborhood. I rode all the horses
and things that were in the stable. And my father said I was too heavy for one goat so I
came around the house riding two goats; one leg over one, and one over the other. He
said I don’t know what I’ve done. But I was very, very well behaved when I was riding
them. And I was a funny child. I’ve done everything.
Interviewer: Were there many houses around your family’s home?
Mrs. Lockwood: There were houses; the Bissells lived next door to us, Mrs. M.R. Bissell
and Lewis Withey lived beyond … then the Waters. Mary Waters and I were great
friends. And we went riding on the streets there.
Interviewer: Was there a gazebo on the Waters’ property, do you remember?
Mrs. Lockwood: What was that?
Interviewer: It’s like, it’s kind of an outdoor building that people spend time in the
summertime.
Mrs. Lockwood: There was a summer house up on the hill, behind Mr. Waters’ house. I
didn’t know what a gazebo was.
Interviewer: I never knew either until I saw a movie called The Gazebo and they
explained it.
�4
Mrs. Lockwood: I’ve never known anything like that for it. A gazebo, I’ll remember that.
Interviewer: Were the families very close?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh very, we went back and forth, very friendly with the Bissell boy, we
were great friends. And I’d stay there for dinner till I got dessert there, then I’d go home
for dessert. I’d stay anyplace where dessert was good because I enjoyed it so much.
Interviewer: Do you still like dessert?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, I still love dessert. And Irving Bissell and I were great friends.
We’d ride goats together. We’d ride everywhere. He had a white goat.
Interviewer: What color were your goats?
Mrs. Lockwood: My goats were brown and white, and black and white.
Interviewer: What did families do, for example it seems as if families that today in the
neighborhoods are not as closely knit as they were in those days, I mean the families,
from what I understand the living was like in those days, the families today don’t have as
much interaction.
Mrs. Lockwood: We had a great deal of very good, very friendly with our neighbors. I
think the automobile is the reason for that, don’t you?
Interviewer: The automobile?
Mrs. Lockwood: You see we all took street cars, everywhere. We’d meet on the
streetcars and we were very friendly with everyone in our neighborhood. Grandmother
Aldrich lived on the corner of Cherry and College, Grandmother Aldrich, then my father,
and then Mrs. M.R. Bissell, then Mr. Withey, then Mrs. Waters. And Mr. and Mrs.
Barnhart lived across the street where Mrs. Edith Putnam lived and then, afterwards Mr.
Barnhart bought that house. We knew them all. And the Voigt family lived across the
street and the Byrnes family lived across the street from us. Gordon Dudley lived where
Mrs. Waer is now living. Then Charles Fox was in the Castle and the Fox family had
dogs. I was over there a great deal with Mrs. Fox because she got me to come feed the
dogs and help her with the dogs, give them baths and things. Which I enjoyed very much.
Interviewer: Why do you think the auto, what effects do you think the automobile had
in the neighborhood?
Mrs. Lockwood: I think it’s taken the people away from home a great deal, don’t you?
It’s a very independent life now. I don’t begin to know my neighbors, the way I used to.
When we sat on the front porch, people came and dropped in, people don’t drop in
anymore.
�5
Interviewer:
porch…
Were there many people that, in the evening when you’d be sitting on your
Mrs. Lockwood: Sitting on the front porch and other people would see you and they’d
come across the street and call on you. Stay for half and hour or something like, that. And
there’s none of that anymore. People don’t call anymore; don’t you think that’s true?
Interviewer: I don’t know because I’ve never lived in an age without the automobile.
Mrs. Lockwood: That’s true. Well of course, I was about sixteen when the automobile
was invented, the real automobile which means ones that you could buy. And my father
had an Olds. The first car, it was an Olds and a very good car. I learned to drive when I
was about sixteen.
Interviewer: What year was it when your father bought a car?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh I couldn’t tell you.
Interviewer: Well, now if you were sixteen… it must have been eighteen ninety-eight?
You were born in eighteen eighty-two?
Mrs. Lockwood: Eighteen eighty-eight.
Interviewer: That would be nineteen four.
Mrs. Lockwood: Nineteen four. That sounds right.
Interviewer: Was that one of the first automobiles in Grand Rapids?
Mrs. Lockwood: Let’s see, I don’t think father had the first automobile. He was, he was
not very interested in them at first, but he grew very fond of his automobile. The first car
he had was an Olds.
Interviewer: Were there any people, friends or acquaintances of your family that refused
to buy automobiles?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh no! Everybody bought automobiles. It caught right on everybody
enjoyed it. And my father never learned to drive, there was a chauffeur. And then when
we grew older, my brother and I drove it all the time. I liked to drive it very much. It had
acetylene lights and I would light the lights. It had no starter on the car. You had to have
a handle and what do you say?
Interviewer: Crank it?
�6
Mrs. Lockwood: Crank it. I’d crank it about an hour. Ira Batchhelder and I used to crank
his automobile, when I was a child. I had a very happy childhood.
Interviewer: What was downtown like when, did you say your father owned the Morton
House?
Mrs. Lockwood: Owned the Morton House. And afterwards we rented the Pantlind. He
never owned the Pantlind, but he owned the Morton House.
Interviewer: What was your father’s name?
Mrs. Lockwood: Pantlind, J. Boyd Pantlind. James Boyd Pantlind. He was in… he was
brought here with A. V. Pantlind [his uncle Arundius Voorhees Pantlind] and was the
original partner here in Grand Rapids. They ran the Morton House. They brought Father
here as a little boy, about fourteen years old. And he ran the Morton until he died. Of
course he was running the Pantlind also.
Interviewer: What was the Morton House like in those days?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh very, very attractive really. There was a mezzanine floor where we
would sit and watch everything going on there all the time. It was very attractive hotel
with the lovely pictures, lots of carpets and many conventions in came there. There was a
very attractive grill at the back that was connected with the bar, I suppose that’s what
appealed to men, but we used to go there as children and have our supper. It was very
well done, very. I guess that’s all I’m talking about is myself. Don’t you want me to say
something that I know about Grand Rapids?
Interviewer: Alright, tell me something that you know about Grand Rapids.
Mrs. Lockwood: I mean something you’d like to know about Grand Rapids?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, I know that the statue from Lookout Park is now over here on the
intersection of Cherry and State street. That statue used to be at Lookout Park. When I
was a little child we used to go up there. Do you know where Lookout Park is?
Interviewer: I think so.
Mrs. Lockwood: Okay.
Interviewer: Why’d they move the statue?
Mrs. Lockwood: I have no idea. But I knew it very well, I discovered afterwards when
here, in our Park and there was a large fountain where the horses would drink because
there were only horses, no automobiles. Everybody had horses, my mother drove a horse
�7
and my father liked to drive. I rode horse-back, had ponies and things like that, (the
Bissell boy did too) and no cars, it was a very different life, a very simple life compared
with now. I think the automobile has, changed the entire community, don’t you?
Interviewer: Well
Mrs. Lockwood: You don’t remember when there were not cars?
Interviewer: No, I don’t.
Mrs. Lockwood: The automobiles, the movies and the television, I think that changed the
world very, very, much.
Interviewer: What did, how did family groups spend their time in those days when there
weren’t movies, automobiles and televisions?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh we had enormous family parties. There were thirty-five in our
family for Christmas dinner. We had Christmas dinner on the third floor at father’s house
he’d dress up as a chef with a cap and apron and everything. He’d carve the turkey up
there. We had beautiful parties up there. I had a… when I was married we had a supper
up there. It was just as attractive as it could be. That’s the way people lived. They all had
third floors. They all had dancing parties. They had a billiards table up there where you
could play the afternoon and evening but that was a very close family life when I was
young. We were very close to our parents. And we were very close to your neighbors.
Interviewer: Were during the year, other than the holiday season, were there, would,
families give parties and invite friends in?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, We have them almost every Sunday, [] we went to some member
of the family.
Interviewer: I see
Mrs. Lockwood: I had many relatives here. Mrs. J. H. Wonderly is my aunt, and, Mrs.
Richard Smith was my cousin, the doctor’s wife and my Aunt Kate Blake who was Mrs.
John Blake, he’s been dead for many, many years was here too and then I went there to
school, she had a house.. it’s the old Dix house on Cherry Street. You know where the
Dix house? [Horace P. Dix]
Interviewer: No
Mrs. Lockwood: That’s right across from that Oakwood Manor; it’s that house with the
pillars in the front. [540 Cherry St]
Interviewer: Oh, that Greek Revival.
�8
Mrs. Lockwood:
Yes.
Interviewer: You went to school there?
Mrs. Lockwood: I went to school there. Went to school on the first floor at the back of
the house.
Interviewer: What kind of school was it?
Mrs. Lockwood: A private school. I don’t think it was as good as the public school but
we all went there. The whole neighborhood went there. And we enjoyed it very much.
Interviewer: Why did your parents send you to the private school?
Mrs. Lockwood: It was right here, we were closer to home. And we all went to Mr.
Powell’s School up on College Avenue. Then I went in high school, finally, which I
enjoyed very, very much. I highly approve of the public school. I think they’re much
better for youngsters.
Interviewer: Than private schools?
Mrs. Lockwood: Than private schools. I think you rub elbows with everybody, you
learn to adjust yourself to the world. I think it’s very wise to send a child to public school.
Interviewer: What was the public school you attended?
Mrs. Lockwood: I went up there to Central High School. Central was on Ransom Street
then. I don’t know it’s there now. It’s no longer there.
Interviewer: Not on Ransom Street now.
Mrs. Lockwood: No, it was called Central High School when I was young. And I went
to into grade school then I went right into high school.
Interviewer: What kind of, was it basically the same education in the private schools
that they had in the public schools?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, I thought much harder then, when I was young, very much harder
than now. That isn’t, that’s not true at all. I was a very, very poor student. Isaac Keeler
sat right in front of me. I’d never been through arithmetic if it hadn’t been for Isaac
Keeler. He helped me with my work all the time.
Interviewer: He was a good student?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh he was a wonderful student, wonderful student and I was a very poor
student. I was very conscientious. I tried very hard but I was a poor student.
�9
Interviewer: Did you go to college after high school?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, I went to Dana Hall which is in Wellesley, Massachusetts. It’s a
very good school for the wealthy. I didn’t go on to college.
Interviewer: Did many of your neighbors, did the children that you grew up with, did
they go to college?
Mrs. Lockwood: Very few went on to college when I was young.
Interviewer: What did they do after they got through with high school?
Mrs. Lockwood: They came home and made their debuts and usually married very, very
young. I was just twenty when I was married. I was very happily married and I had a
perfectly beautiful time but I, I think I was much too young, at twenty years old to marry.
Don’t you think that’s very young?
Interviewer: I think it depends on the individual.
Mrs. Lockwood: I think so too. Well, I had a very happy married life; I had a very
devoted, very sweet husband. I wish I could talk of something besides myself.
Interviewer: Oh I think that, personal recollections, something you were involved in
yourself, and that you saw and experienced are the best recollections.
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, I have very happy recollections. My father said, he couldn’t
arrange my life for me, adjust my life for me, but he could give me a happy childhood.
That was his ambition, and he certainly did. He gave me a perfectly wonderful childhood.
Interviewer: That’s a fine memory.
Mrs. Lockwood: Um hum, it’s a wonderful memory to have of a person. Of course Grand
Rapids was dirt streets and it was very, very different from now. And I could only go
from Fountain to Cherry on my pony and with my goats. I wasn’t allowed to go farther
than that.
Interviewer: Why was that?
Mrs. Lockwood: Because I was so little, I was only five years old.
Interviewer: Oh.
Mrs. Lockwood: When I got older I rode everywhere. And father had a farm when we
were older and we used to ride, I used to ride out there almost every day, had a tennis
�10
court out there, It’s now the cemetery. It’s the Catholic and Protestant Cemetery it’s
called… out on Kalamazoo Avenue.
Interviewer: Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: You must know that cemetery.
Interviewer: Which one?
Mrs. Lockwood: Woodlawn. Woodlawn.
Interviewer: That was out in the country then?
Mrs. Lockwood: It was way in the country. It was miles away. It’s not very far now by
automobile but it took a pony a long time to get out there.
Interviewer: where the country begins in terms of where you lived on College Avenue?
What was considered out in the country?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, you were getting in the country really… you’d go out Kalamazoo
Avenue and I would say that at Burton Avenue you were in the country.
Interviewer: How about southeast what’s now East Grand Rapids and so on? Was
that…?
Mrs. Lockwood: East Grand Rapids wasn’t there at all and that was very much in the
country, when I was young.
Interviewer: Did you ever go out to Reed’s Lake?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, I went there all the time. And they had the Ramona out there you
know when I was a child. And we’d skate out there in the winter and the Ramona in the
summer, vaudeville every night. We’d go out in the streetcar and there’d be streetcars
that would bring you home. The last streetcar we always had to catch. It was delightful.
We’d roller-skate out there in the summer time, ice-skate in the winter. And Mr. Rose
was a son of Mr. Rose Senior. I don’t know what the name was, it was Todd Rose’s
father, was in charge of the swimming when I was a little girl. I enjoyed it very much. I
was more than a little girl; I must have been fifteen or sixteen years old.
Interviewer: What was your most memorable experience as not only, what was your
memorable experience as a young person not only as a child but, let’s say as a teenager
and so on?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, let me see. I think that would be very hard for me to decide, I had so
many memorable experiences. I have no idea. Maybe too many to tell.
�11
Interviewer: Well, can you try and tell me a couple?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, one experience I remember very well, Margie Stanton was a
friend of mine and we met Teddy Roosevelt, and she told him that she had a raccoon
named Teddy. That tickled me almost to death. As a child, that pleased me so.
Interviewer: Where did you happen to meet Teddy Roosevelt?
Mrs. Lockwood: He was here in Grand Rapids. We met him down at the hotel.
Interviewer: At the Morton House?
Mrs. Lockwood: At the Morton.
Interviewer: What did he come to Grand Rapids for?
Mrs. Lockwood: [To] speak. Must be for running for election. I went to see but I was too
small to remember.
Interviewer: What did he say when the girl told him that her raccoon….
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, he said, “I’m delighted, I’m just delighted.” He smiled all over and
she was so pleased she could hardly stand it. And she said, “I have a cute raccoon and
named him Teddy for you.” He was very pleased by it. And very amused by it.
Interviewer: Did many politicians come to Grand Rapids, to campaign or one thing or
another in those days?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, President Taft came here and Theodore Roosevelt was here. No I
don’t remember any others. Oh, Bryan was here, too.
Interviewer: William Jennings Bryan?
Mrs. Lockwood: William Jennings Bryan. I’m a Republican so I didn’t hear William
Jennings Bryan, but I saw him. He was down in the square.
Let’s see if any, anything else exciting happened. I don’t believe so, in the way of
political life. Alice Roosevelt Longworth was staying here with her husband years ago.
And Mrs. Hanchett and her husband took them on the Honolulu [I] remember, the only
one I remember. It was his streetcar and they took him out to the Cattery. And they
wanted to get Mrs. Longworthy a cat but she didn’t want it.
Interviewer: What was it, what’s the Cattery?
Mrs. Lockwood: It was on the corner of Carlton and Lake Drive. I can’t tell you the name
of the woman, she raised cats. She had hundreds of cats in that house. And she raised
�12
them. She wanted to give Mrs. Longworth a cat but Mrs. Longworth couldn’t take care of
a cat.
Interviewer: (Hanchett) he owned the street car line.
Mrs. Lockwood: That’s right and afterwards he was across from my father and mother
on College Avenue, and they occupied that house. I was very fond of Mr. and Mrs.
Hanchett. Mr. Hanchett was very fond of horses too.
Interviewer: Did they, did they ever have races with their horses?
Mrs. Lockwood: They used to race down on Jefferson Avenue, every Sunday afternoon.
Ride fast horses in the cutter. I used to go there often and they raced their horses, up and
down the street. And they had races out here at the fairgrounds out here in the south end.
I never went out there.
Interviewer: What….excuse me.
Mrs. Lockwood: I used to go to the fairgrounds out here.
Interviewer: Yes, where are the, where were the fairgrounds?
Mrs. Lockwood: The fairgrounds were out… let’s see where that is now? It’s well, it’s
out where the, what is there out there now? It was out by Mill Creek out that way.
Interviewer: By Middle Creek?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, Mill, Mill Creek it was called. Mill Creek.
Interviewer: I don’t know where that is.
Mrs. Lockwood: It’s in the north side of the city. It’s beyond North Park, across the river
from North Park.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
Mrs. Lockwood: You know where the Soldier’s home is?
Interviewer: Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: It was right out that bridge. Right out that road.
Interviewer: In these horse races, there down on Jefferson Avenue, would they race like a
jockey race or would they (?)
�13
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh no, they, just in their cutters. They had cutters. And the men would
have fast horses and just race Sunday afternoons.
Interviewer: Did your father ever race?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, he never raced. He wasn’t fond of anything like that. So I never
raced either. I’d like to, but my pony wasn’t fast enough and they were very good looking
horses they were racing. I used to drive, ride down there and watch them. When the
circus would come to town we’d all go to the circus and had wonderful times like that.
Interviewer: Did many people go down to Jefferson Avenue to watch the horse races?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, they did. Had big crowds there on Sunday afternoon applauding for
who had the fastest horse great crowds there, on Sunday afternoon. On pleasant winter
days in the cutters, we’d all go bobsledding. We’d take the bobs and the wintertime and
ride with the milkman. When he was delivering milk we rode with him.
Interviewer: What, what’s a bob? Is that the sled?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes. Bob, that’s the sled.
Interviewer: You’d hold on the back of his open cart then?
Mrs. Lockwood: Back of his cart, open cart and he had a bobsled on it and he’d drive he
had some youngsters on the back of it all the time. And that was a lot fun. It’s very
different now. You couldn’t do that now. You couldn’t have a bob sled in Grand Rapids.
You’d be killed getting off and getting on. There’s nothing else you’d like to ask me?
Interviewer: Yes, there are a lot of things. I’m just thinking and just trying to picture that
who would any of the men in your neighborhood or in this area around here race cutters?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, I don’t think so.
Interviewer: Who were the men that raced the cutters?
Mrs. Lockwood: I don’t know the men at all. I’ve no idea. But anybody that had a fast
horse, trotting horses and pacing horses, they were all in the race, on Sunday afternoons.
And I’d go down on my pony just to watch them go by, but I didn’t know the men.
Interviewer: When did you get married?
Mrs. Lockwood: In nineteen nine, nineteen-0-nine - that’s a long time ago.
Interviewer: Did you spend your married life in this house here?
�14
Mrs. Lockwood: No, I’ve been here fifty six years; I was married and first lived on
Washington Street. It’s where those double houses are on Washington Street. It was four0-seven Washington. It was right next to George Thompsons.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Lockwood: Just north of him, we were there for about a three years and then father
bought this house when had some (?) builder built it. (?) He was very amusing person, a
very attractive person. But Grand Rapids in those days was a beautiful city, the streets
were lovely and the trees were so beautiful on College Avenue. Of course, there was no
East Grand Rapids at all. As far as we ever went was Reed’s Lake. We never went any
farther east than Reed’s Lake on the streetcar.
Interviewer: Did people do much traveling in those days?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, my grandmother went to California every winter. She had a house
in California and a great many people went there. Mrs. Murphy went there every winter.
Interviewer: In California?
Mrs. Lockwood: In California.
And people didn’t go abroad the way they do now, but they went to California. I think
California was a very good favorite place in the winter and of course Father knew it too.
But they were very, very fond of California.
Interviewer: That certainly sounds different.
Mrs. Lockwood: It was a different world. Yes, of course there was no, there was no push
then there was no, nothing to make you rush. Everybody went to church and they drove
to church and drove home from church, the hitching posts for the horses, was a very
relaxing age. We’ve come to a very, I can’t quite describe what I mean but it’s, I think
there’s such a push we’ve got for everything now. Don’t you have that feeling?
Interviewer: Yes, I have that feeling.
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes
Interviewer: What do you think that ended that age that way of living?
Mrs. Lockwood: The automobile.
Interviewer: Do you think it was just the introduction of the automobile?
�15
Mrs. Lockwood: I think it was the cars. Then everybody could get away so quickly you
know. I don’t think it was very good to the young people.
Interviewer: Well, if people had such lovely times in the neighborhoods and with their
friends and their families, when the automobile was introduced why did they hurry away?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, they finally got out in the country by themselves I guess. I just
don’t know.
Interviewer:
Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: But I do think the automobile has done a great deal, had changed
people’s lives. Don’t you feel that way?
Interviewer: Yes, I think it has sure had a terrific effect on American life.
Mrs. Lockwood: And we used to have neighborhood parties, I mean children’s parties.
You don’t have anything like that now for children. You’d go to someone’s house and
spend the evening and play tap in and tap out, post office and have the best time, they
don’t do that anymore.
Interviewer: The Aldrich family came from New York is that right?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, it was Plymouth, Michigan.
Interviewer: Plymouth Michigan?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes,
Interviewer: Where did they come from before Plymouth, Michigan?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, I think you’ve asked me something I can’t answer.
Interviewer: Well that’s not that important.
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, they came from different places. I think originally from New York
State, from Rochester, New York, but I’m not sure of that. I know they, they were born in
Plymouth, Michigan.
Interviewer: After, after the Second, or the First World War you’ve been living in this
house for fifty-six years, what was the difference in, in the way people lived in society in
let’s say the twenties, after the First World War between then and the beginning of the
Depression? That span of time compared to the nineteen hundreds to nineteen-fifteen, for
example.
Mrs. Lockwood: I think people lived at home very much more before the war.
�16
Interviewer: Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: That and I think the country clubs.
Interviewer: Were you and your husband members of the country club?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, he was very fond of golf and but there was, I think there was, much
more family life when we were young.
Interviewer: Yes, what effect did the Depression have on the Hill District?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh it was very bad, nobody had any clothes any clothes that were new
and pretty and then nobody could have new because it was (?).And of course everybody
felt the depression very, very keenly.
Interviewer:
Did it affect you and your husband?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh yes, he was in the lumber business and it affected him very much.
We had to curtail everything but everybody else was curtailed, too.
Interviewer:
So almost everybody was suffering together?
Mrs. Lockwood: Everybody was suffering together. There were no comparisons at all.
And I remember Mr. Benjamin Robinson bought a new car and we were all simply
appalled that he could afford to buy a new car. He bought a new Packard car and we all
wanted to ride in it because it was brand new. And we were so impressed that he bought a
new car, of course he had no children. We had children, bringing them up and going off
the school and all sorts of things, it was a very hard time.
Interviewer: Are your children, still living in Grand Rapids?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, my daughter lives, she’s been living in Chicago, now she lives just
outside the Castle, Castle Park just below Holland. And my other daughter lives in
Parkton, Pennsylvania. I have four grand-children and three great-grandchildren.
Interviewer:
Three great grand-children?
Mrs. Lockwood: I’m very, very fortunate. I have a great grand-child almost thirteen
years old. She’s a young lady.
Interviewer: That’s amazing.
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes
Interviewer: You spent your summers down at Ottawa Beach?
�17
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, always.
Interviewer:
summer?
Did you, when you were a child, did your family go anywhere for the
Mrs. Lockwood: Every summer. Father ran the hotel down there and [we] went to the
hotel for our meals and we had a very, very happy summer. Mother had a good time. She
just had to look after us, but no meals to look after.
Interviewer: How did you get down to Holland and Ottawa Beach?
Mrs. Lockwood: We drove down and for a long time took the train. This train would
leave at five-thirty in the afternoon and then we’d come up at eight-thirty in the morning
and then do all sorts of things. Interurban across the Lake from Ottawa Beach, stop in
Macatawa. We’d come up in the morning and spend the day and we’d go down at night
and have a beautiful time. But we hardly wait to get back to the beach.
Interviewer: What happened to that hotel?
Mrs. Lockwood: It was burned.
Interviewer:
Was your father still, managing it when it burned?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, father was dead and my brother had taken over. It burned in the
spring. I don’t think they ever knew what happened to the hotel. It was completely
burned. There was no one on the property at all.
Interviewer:
Was it in the winter when it burned?
Mrs. Lockwood: In the springtime.
Interviewer: Oh.
Mrs. Lockwood: Burned to the ground. It was a lovely hotel, with great big porches and
you could walk up on the porches and have dances very night. Everybody came from all
the cottages and went to dances and it was a very happy life. They don’t live that way
anymore. There’s a motel, nothing like the Ottawa Beach Hotel or Macatawa Hotel
anymore.
And I like Point West very much, but I had a gay life down there, at Ottawa Beach Hotel.
Interviewer:
Where did the guests that stayed at the hotel come from?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, from all different places. There was a great many people from
Chicago, a great many people from Cincinnati, and a great many people came from St.
�18
Louis. They would spend the entire summer there. A many people from Grand Rapids
went down there and stayed.
Interviewer:
They would spend the entire summer right at the hotel?
Mrs. Lockwood: In the summer, two or three weeks. And the season was only about six
weeks. We’d open in the latter part of June and close around Labor Day but no business
after August. July was a big month down there. Very, very gay and very nice people
came there in the summer… came summer after summer.
Interviewer: What did people, do in the winter time for their fun, summertime they’d go
down to the Ottawa Beach hotel but in the winter time what would they do for…
Mrs. Lockwood: I think they froze. .In the winter time, I don’t know. I had a very happy
time. We tobogganed or had bobsleds on Washington Street. They’d shut that street off
entirely. Nobody could get across it. We’d roll from the hill down to the, what street is it?
Interviewer: Lafayette?
Mrs. Lockwood: Not Lafayette.
Interviewer: State Street? Jefferson?
Mrs. Lockwood: Jefferson. We’d go right down to Jefferson. Arthur Vandenberg use to
ride the bobsleds_________ and down we’d go. And then we’d have to come up the hill
pulling the bobsleds. That wasn’t so much fun. But the going down was great fun.
Interviewer: Where did Arthur Vandenberg live? Did he live near-by?
Mrs. Lockwood: Just down Washington Street, about the fifth house down, just below
Prospect.
Interviewer: You grew up with him?
Mrs. Lockwood: We grew up there. And he was very good with the youngsters. And of
course, when I grew older he was just my age but when I was a child he was about five
years older. And he’d help us with our bobsleds and he was very kind to all of us. Mr.
Senator Vandenberg and my husband were great friends. But, in the winter time there
were, there was no Gay Avenue here at all. This has been added since I was a girl. It was
on Mr. Gay’s property. And they cut the street through and then of course, the property
was sold off. But this was all closed off and we start right from the head of the street and
at Madison to the corner anyway. And they, they’d close off Lafayette and Prospect;
we’d go right to the bottom of the hill on these big bobsleds.
Interviewer:
use it?
Who would use the hill, mainly children or would the adults sometimes
�19
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh no, no adults.
Interviewer:
They just did it for the children?
Mrs. Lockwood: Just for the youngsters. And we’d slide all day long. Now what my
father and mother did in the winter I just don’t know. I think probably they were bored to
death. Of course they had horses and they drove in the winter time and when the cars
came in they drove, drive an automobile in the ruts and a car would come towards you or
they’d have to back up the car to let you through.
Interviewer:
Who, who had to back up?
Mrs. Lockwood: One of the cars would have to back up.
Interviewer:
Oh, yes.
Mrs. Lockwood: Because you’d be in a rut driving in the middle of the street. The streets
weren’t cleaned at all in those days. You just took them as they were.
Interviewer: Before the car came in did they, how did they travel in the winter time,
with horses? Did they have sleighs?
Mrs. Lockwood: In sleighs. Yes, they all had sleighs. Father and Mother had a sleigh.
And I had a sleigh for my ponies. But they were no trouble because horses went all over
the street but in the winter you’d get in a rut and then someone would be in a rut. I was on
Madison Avenue one day and a car came towards me and he very kindly backed up to
Fulton Avenue, and let me out because I was right in the rut I couldn’t get out.
Interviewer: What would happen when a horse drawn sleigh would meet a car? Who
would have to move?
Mrs. Lockwood: The horses would be terrified. My ponies would stand up. They were
just terrified of the automobiles. I’d think they were going to run away but they never did.
It wasn’t very long before the automobiles were very popular. Is this all recorded?
Interviewer:
I hope so. Well, I think that’s all, I think we’ve covered quite a bit. Can
you think of anything that, if you were doing the interview you’d ask about?
Mrs. Lockwood: I can’t think of anything interesting, anything that would interest you.
Interviewer:
Well, try me out.
Mrs. Lockwood: I had a very happy time, very good time. No, I don’t believe there’s
anything else.
�20
Interviewer:
OK. Fine. Let’s see if we………
INDEX
A
O
Aldrich, Euphrasia Ledyard (Grandmother) · 2, 15
Aldrich, Moses (Grandfather) · 2
Ottawa Beach · 17, 18, 19
B
Barnhart, Mr. and Mrs. · 4
Batchhelder, Ira · 6
Bissell Family · 3
Blake, Kate (Aunt) · 8
Bryan, William Jennings · 12
C
Central High School · 8, 9
F
P
Pantlind, James Boyd (Father) · 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12,
13, 14, 18, 19
Pantlind, Jessie Louise Aldrich (Mother) · 2, 7, 12, 19
R
Ramona Park · 11
Reed’s Lake · 11, 14
Robinson, Benjamin · 17
Roosevelt, President Theodore (Teddy) · 11, 12
Rose Family · 11
S
Fox Family · 4, 5
Smith, Mrs. Richard · 8
Stanton, Margie · 11
H
Hanchett, Mrs. · 12
T
K
Taft, President · 12
The Cattery · 12
Thompson Family · 14
Keeler, Isaac · 9
V
L
Ledyard, William B. (Great-Grandfather) · 2
Longworth, Mrs. · 12
M
Morton House · 6, 11
Vandenberg, Arthur · 19
W
Waters Family · 3, 4
Wonderly, Mrs. J.H. (Aunt) · 8
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6e567dc0399a707c4465d92e23029b6c.mp3
71df701fb205d20b9365bc1c773dd162
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Various
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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application/pdf; audio/mp3
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text; Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-23
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1971 - 1977
Sound
A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-23_5-6Lockwood
Title
A name given to the resource
Lockwood, Katherine
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lockwood, Katherine
Description
An account of the resource
Katherine Pantlind was born on December 25, 1888 in Grand Rapids. Her father owned and operated the Pantlind Hotel. She married Closson Lockwood in 1909 and met Teddy Roosevelt. She died on March 16, 1976.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
audio/mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87e2313fce3a7c8b4088ff5f7c5bfae5.mp4
f96c96e8cf8bed6b24fdcecb4b04426b
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66aa17c4ef54943409e28a19757cb5e8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee name: Jack Allen Lofgren
Length of Interview: 29 minutes 06 seconds –1942 to 1945
Pre-Enlistment (00:12)
•
Childhood (00:20)
o
•
Education (00:58)
o
•
Lofgren was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on June 16th, 1924. (00:28)
Briefly mentions that he went to Jefferson High School through the 10th Grade after
which time he joined the service. (01:08)
His Job (01:50)
o
Was working in Grand Rapids for Pontiac Automotive when he heard the news that
Pearl Harbor was attacked from home. Soon afterwards he found out that a cousin of
his had been killed in the attack. (02:00)
Enlistment/Basic Training (02:48)
•
•
Why he joined (02:56)
o
Lofgren mentions that he joined on Nov. 3, 1942 because he felt that it was his patriotic
duty to do so for his country. (02:59)
o
He enlisted into the Quartermasters Corps in the Army. (03:01)
Where he went and what company he served with (03:17)
o
Was sent to Fort Warren, Wyoming where he went to school first to learn about being a
quartermaster and then the signaling corps. (03:20)
o
Was then sent onto to Trussville, Florida where he attended radar school. While there
he learned how to identify planes and handling of the radar equipment. (03:33)
o
Briefly mentions that for a time he served aboard a P‐61 Black Widow and
stationary duty aboard 527s around the U.S. and overseas. While doing so, he
was working for the 50th Air Force. (04:39)
Boarded a Liberty troop transport ship for Europe. (05:40)
�o
At this point of the interview he outlines the places he saw battle. For instance he was
at Salerno, Naples, Anzio, Rome, and the major campaigns in Southern France and
heartland of Germany. (06:08)
Active Duty (08:51)
o
o
o
o
Sicily (09:07)
o
While preparing for the invasion of the Italian mainland here he recalls that the enemy
would frequently run bombing raids on Sicily while he working as a radar operator
there. (09:43)
o
While deployed in Sicily part of his job as a radar operator was to identify enemy planes
and then American bombers would drop something called “Window” which was made
of aluminum tin foil and so that enemy planes would not know where they were
coming. (09:55)
o
Takes a brief moment to mention that his father served in the Spanish American War
o
served with the Navy for about 24 years. (11:09)
Italian mainland (12:42)
o
Landed at Salerno and pushed on to Naples and Caserta and then to Anzio where he saw
his first action. (13:00)
o
Anzio (13:20)
Stationed along a highway near the beach. (13:24) During one of his experiences
there he mentions seeing an LST being destroyed. (13:30)
Also briefly describes some of the exploits of Audie Murphy one of the men in
his company [division?]. (14:16)
Battle of the Bulge (15:35)
o
While stationed about the mile from the front lines, Lofgren was assigned to the PI‐27
Radar Unit to protect the radar equipment. Describes what sort of equipment his van
was equipped with. In this way he avoided fighting at the Bulge. (16:01)
o
While talking to a buddy via the phone his mouthpiece is struck by a bullet at which he
walks away un‐phased. (17:43)
Into Germany (18:35)
o
After liberating Munich his unit was going down the Autobahn when they stopped and
liberated Dachau and the concentration camp there. (18:38)
�o
He describes how beautiful the area was outside the concentration camp compared to
the filth and awful smell of the camp itself. (19:18)
o
Before going into the camp he mentions being deloused. According to him once into the
camp he was shocked to see dead bodies rotting in flatcars and getting ready to be
burned. (19:52)
o
Mentions that German farmers used human ashes for fertilizer. (21:10)
o
His unit never made it to Berlin but instead was pulled back. On VE Day he was back in
camp enjoying good food and waiting to go home with many others. (21:29)
o
While waiting to go home he mentions the different types of food offered while
surviving on K‐rations for 107 days. (22:45)
Going Home (23:46)
o
Briefly mentions that he boarded a liberty ship for home and that it took 11 days to get
back to Norfolk, Virginia, where they had embarked before. (23:55)
o
From there, Lofgren mentions being sent on to Camp Sheridan, Illinois where he was
discharged. (25:24)
After the Service (25:39)
o
Adjusting to Home (25:46)
o
o
After being discharged, Lofgren got married and was married for 26 years. Briefly
discusses his children. (25:55)
Reflection (26:56)
o
Lofgren shares his thoughts about the impact that his time in the service had on him if
any. (27:18)
o
Interview Ends (29:06)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LofgrenJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Lofgren, Jack Allen (Interview outline and video), 2004
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lofgren, Jack Allen
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Lofgren is a World War II veteran who served in the Quartermasters Corps of the U.S. Army from November 1942 to 1945. In this account, Lofgren discusses his pre-enlistment, enlistment and basic training in the U.S. and his service time abroad. What is most interesting is the brief details he gives in regards to the fighting in Italy, S. France, and his acquaintanceship with Audie Murphy. Lofgren concludes by sharing what impact his time in the service had on him.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2004-06-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9fe04bf19dec886e1d31abaf972a6641.mp4
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Robert Loftis
Total Time – (39:06)
Background
· He was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan – July 28, 1922
· His mother died when he was six years old (00:29)
o His brother was two years old at the time
o Moved to his grandparents farm in Marne, Michigan
· He went to a one-room school (01:02)
· Eventually moved back to Grand Rapids, Michigan
o His grandparents lost the farm during the Depression
· He graduated from Catholic Central High School in 1941 (01:50)
· He did not know much about the events of the war at this time
· He was surprised when Pearl Harbor was bombed
· A good friend was drafted
o He decided that his friend was not going to go without him so he went to
East Grand Rapids, Michigan and signed up (02:56)
Enlistment/Training – (02:57)
·
·
·
·
He enlisted in October, 1942
He worked at a bowling alley and other odd jobs during this time
Joined the Navy – was able to choose to join this branch (03:41)
Went to boot camp at Great Lakes, Illinois (03:57)
o Was in boot camp for 4-5 weeks
· Was able to go home for 9 days – traveled by train
· He was then taken to Treasure Island in San Francisco, California (04:22)
· At Great Lakes, soldiers had to run every morning and spend time learning about
the Navy (04:47)
o Discipline was stressed in boot camp
Active Duty – (05:16)
· From Treasure Island, he was sent to the destroyer USS Phelps – October, 1943
(05:23)
�·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
o The Japanese had missed this ship in Pearl Harbor
The USS Phelps was armed with anti-aircraft guns
o [5inch 38’s], 40mm, and torpedoes
Before he was put on the USS Phelps, he spent 6 months in the Aleutian Islands
(07:40)
A lot of the men on the ship got sea sick
His assignment was Signalman 3rd class (08:12)
o He learned how to interpret Morse code (08:52)
o He would flick a light on and off to communicate with other ships (09:20)
The trip to the Aleutians was rough
They immediately went after the Japanese once they got to the islands (10:00)
o They got within 1,500 yards of the beach
o The destroyer would get close to the beach
The Army and the Marines went ahead of them, but were not equipped for the
weather
There were 8 men in his division
o He worked 4 hours on, 8 hours off (11:35)
He was stationed in the bridge of the ship (11:38)
He reported to a 1st or 2nd class officer
Spent 6 months in the Aleutians (12:57)
It turned out that the information that they had was wrong and there were no
Japanese on the island [Kiska]
From the Aleutian Islands, they traveled to Pearl Harbor (13:28)
o There were ships all over the side and oil all over the harbor
He was able to venture onto the Hawaii mainland every morning (13:58)
They did not spend much time in Hawaii and quickly traveled to Makin Island
o They bombarded Makin Island (14:34)
Returned back to Pearl Harbor after this
They never encountered any Japanese ships or aircraft
The war was never intense for him (16:00)
o He was never worried about dying
There was a particular routine to life on the boats
o Had to spend a certain amount of time in the bridge of the ship
o Men would relieve the others very early
Men had their own bunks (17:17)
While on watch, the men often had to spray paint or scrape paint
Had to constantly flash the lights to communicate (18:10)
There was never any kind of entertainment on the ship
o The majority of the entertainment was in the ports (18:44)
o When they went ashore, they would go to the bars
There were black men on the ship
o They were segregated from the rest of the crew (19:59)
o They were servers
�· The food was nothing fancy – corn bread, green beans, potatoes
o Never had to eat army rations
· California and the Aleutian Islands were the only ports that he stopped in
· Once the war progressed, his ship went to the war in the Mariana Islands (21:57)
o During this time, he was on patrol duty
o The Japanese fired on them two times
· The Japanese were firing with similar weapons as the Americans (23:19)
· The Americans brought in a battleship to destroy the Japanese fleet (23:46)
o He remembers firing star shells all night to see where the Japanese were
(24:00)
· After the battle, they were sent back to the States (24:17)
· They went to Charleston, South Carolina (24:18)
o He was here for 3 months
o He landed in September, 1944 (24:30)
· He was given 3 months of liberty leave
o Went home and married his wife (24:42)
· He was able to write home fairly regularly
o He received mail every time mail was brought in
· Once he returned to Charleston, he was on the ship for another year (25:32)
· He then ran convoys out to Africa (25:36)
· There were not many German U-boats to worry about (25:49)
· Landed in North Africa - Algeria
o It was a little town with Arabs with donkeys, bathrooms where you tipped
ladies for its use, etc
· He was in New York City, New York when the announcement came that the war
was over (27:00)
o The city was going wild
· From New York, he traveled back to Charleston
· He never saw any Japanese aircraft
· He remembers when the Japanese strafed his ship with torpedoes that went
underneath their ships (29:35)
o The Americans thought the Japanese were Americans because the ships
looked similar
· He remembers seeing one Japanese man – he was a small man (30:40)
· He was promoted to signalman 2nd class when he followed his captain to another
ship (31:18)
After the Service – (31:20)
·
·
·
·
He was discharged in September, 1945 (31:42)
When he returned home he was already married
His wife had become pregnant on their honeymoon, but they lost that child
He started a trucking company called “Fleet Delivery Service” (32:35)
�· After that, he worked for Ward Plywood and Door Company
o From this, he ventured into the wood business
· He believes that young people would benefit from the service (33:52)
o Many young people today are “babies” – they do not have hard lives
· He had received battlefield stars from the war
· He was able to stay in touch with fellow Navy men (36:03)
o They all knew one another very well because they did not change crews
very often
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LoftisR0518V
Title
A name given to the resource
Loftis, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2004
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Loftis, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Loftis was born July 28, 1922 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He spent the majority of his childhood at his grandparents' farm in Marne, Michigan. Robert enlisted into the Navy in 1942 and was sent to Great Lakes, Illinois for boot camp where he spent nearly five weeks in training. After boot camp, he was sent to board the USS Phelps in Treasure Island near San Francisco, California. From California, he left for six months to fight the Japanese in the Aleutian Islands in the North Pacific Ocean. Robert spent the majority of his time in the Pacific Ocean and was designated as a Signalman 3rd class that used Morse code to communicate with other ships. He was discharged in September of 1945.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sirois, Pierre (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Navy
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2004-05-14
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/932ae29d80cbcddc1b8ef5573961c771.pdf
b65ed3e08b3e73a1f73c758b7ce4da38
PDF Text
Text
���
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-45_CW-0180
Title
A name given to the resource
Abraham Lincoln's second law partner Stephen T. Logan
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1834-09
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Logan, Stephen T. (Stephen Trigg), 1800-1880
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865
Logan, Stephen T. (Stephen Trigg), 1800-1880
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen T. Logan, Abraham Lincoln's second law partner from 1841-1844. Print of portrait and signed note dated Sept. 1834.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b0c388781622b710fbde60c348803aa8.mp4
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Bob Loper
World War II
1 hour 56 minutes 1 second
(00:00:12) Early Life Pt. 1
-Born on May 9, 1924 in Central Lake, Michigan
-There were no jobs at the time, so his parents had no jobs
-The first few years of his life were spent in a shack
-He had one younger sister
-They lived in the middle of nowhere
-His biological father left, and he grew up with a stepfather from three years old and on
-He and his sister were left alone a lot of the time
-He and his sister slept in a loft in the shack
-There were no beds, and it was similar to a hay loft in a barn
-They eventually moved to an actual house four miles from Bal School
-Ball School was a one room schoolhouse that taught grades 1-6
-Had one stove for the winter, and no indoor plumbing
-Lived in that house for a couple years
-They moved to another house that had been vacated
-It had three bedrooms upstairs
-They had a bannister that he and his sister would slide down
-By the time they moved into that house he was eight years old (ca. 1932)
-His stepfather owned a Model T car
-They were near Grass Lake, Michigan by now
-Remembers that there was a hill near their house
-He and his sister would watch the hill at night, hoping to see the headlights of the car
-They had a barn near the house in Grass Lake
-He and his sister would jump off the hay loft
-When he was older he would grind tree stumps for 15¢ an hour
-Built two houses with his father when they lived near Orchard View Schools
-Orchard View Schools are near Muskegon, Michigan
-Delivered bundles of wood for $2 an hour
-They lost the house they were living in and built a new one in Muskegon
-Moved in before the house was done and had to brave a storm in it
-Only saw his biological father twice in his life
-Learned some of his trades from his stepfather
-The snow in northern Michigan made roads impassible
-Remembers only a horse and rickshaw could get through the snow to deliver supplies
-He started school when he was seven (or eight) years old
(00:13:40) Getting Drafted & the Start of the War
-When he was eighteen he was taking a college prep course, planning on going to college
-He was a junior in high school at this time
-Plan was interrupted by the start of the war
�-Received his draft notice on May 9, 1943
-Not allowed to finish high school
-Remembers the attack on Pearl Harbor
-Has since visited Pearl Harbor and the wreck of the USS Arizona
(00:16:03) Early Life Pt. 2
-Remembers one time when he and his sister were going to catch, kill, and cook a chicken
-Managed to catch the chicken, but botched the execution
(00:17:08) Training Pt. 1
-Sent to Camp Patrick Henry, Virginia from Camp Wolters, Texas (Mineral Wells, Texas)
-The men nicknamed it “Center Part of Hell”
-Stayed there for thirty days
-He was originally in an infantry unit, but wound up assigned to an airborne unit
-The infantry unit was sent to the Anzio beachhead and the majority of them were killed
-He was pulled out of the infantry and was reassigned to an airborne unit
-After his reassignment he left Virginia to be deployed overseas
-Remembers being at Camp Patrick Henry and wandering into the “colored section”
-Got kicked out by Military Police because he was white
(00:19:58) Deployment Pt. 1
-He boarded a Liberty Ship that was part of a twenty ship convoy
-It was a terrible voyage
-Had to stay below decks the entire time
-German aircraft attacked the convoy and sank one of the ships
-Took twenty days to reach Oran, Algeria
-Received more training there
-Got there in December 1943
-Joined a British convoy in the Mediterranean Sea and sailed through the Suez Canal
-Destination was Karachi, India (now Karachi, Pakistan)
-Hated sailing with the British
-The British demanded respect and formality from non-British soldiers
-The food was infested with flies
-Took twenty days to sail from Oran to Karachi
-The seas were rough on the Atlantic portion of the crossing
-Slept in six high bunks
-Conditions were bad, but the men were excited to be going overseas
-He didn’t get seasick, but a lot of men did
(00:25:13) Arrival in India
-Only in Karachi for a short time
-Took a train to Calcutta
-Sent to a training base
-While traveling across India he saw little villages made up of four or five shacks
-The people were selling little trinkets and bananas and oranges
-He and his unit were going to be a part of the 10th Air Force
-Trained with gliders
-Each glider had one .50 caliber gun position and room for five troops
(00:30:25) Stationed in Burma Pt. 1
-The plan was to go into Burma and stop the Japanese from crossing into India
�-Their mission was to establish gun positions at airstrips across Burma
-Started out working with squadrons of P-40 fighter planes
-The P-40s weren’t fast enough
-Eventually worked with P-47, then P-51, then finally P-38 squadrons
-Each one was better than the last
-Remembers one pilot showing off after he shot down a Japanese plane
-Wound up crashing his plane in the process of landing it
-The unit that the Flying Tigers had become was there to protect them
-Also to protect the Allied bombers that were flying out of Burma
-Remembers a P-47 fighter plane coming back to base with forty bullet holes in it
-Their duty was to protect the airstrips from Japanese air raids
-At some point they were sent to a base that was used by Merrill’s Marauders
-It was called the “Center Pearl of the World” due to the high amount of precious stones
-You could trade rations and cigarettes for precious stones
-Only getting paid $50 a month while he was in Burma
-The pattern was moving from base to base and setting up new gun positions
-Almost made it to Mandalay before the war ended
-It was all jungle
-Meant that supplies had to be air dropped into them
-Spent most of 1944 and most of 1945 in Burma
(00:39:30) Training Pt. 2
-Received his basic training at Camp Wolters, Texas near Mineral Wells, Texas
(00:39:50) Making Rank
-He was sent over to Burma as a private first class
-While he was in Burma he made technician fifth grade communications chief
-He should have technically been a staff sergeant
-From that point on he worked almost solely on the radio
(00:41:22) Stationed in Burma Pt. 2
-Each new base they went to they would set up six to eight gun positions
-The battalion had about one hundred five men in it
-Had a captain, a sergeant, a staff sergeant, and miscellaneous noncommissioned officers
-Everyone else was a private
-Traveled around the country in C-47 transport planes
-They were living in British tents
-American government would lease each tent for $18 a day
-There were four men to a tent
-The men hated those tents
-One night remembers a scorpion found its way into his tent
-The tents had to be covered in mosquito netting
-Had to take medicine that turned their skin yellow
-Most likely Atabrine to prevent contracting malaria
(00:44:43) Fighting on the Brahmaputra River
-There was one point where they were stationed near the Brahmaputra River
-There was an island in the river that was held by the Japanese
-He and a small group of men were sent to a place that was parallel to that island
-Once there he was charged with setting up the telephone system
�-They established a perimeter and set up a .50 caliber machine gun position
-Knew not to get captured by the Japanese
-Knew that the Japanese routinely interrogated, then tortured to death any prisoners
-Remembers mortars being fired over his head at the island
-His captain had volunteered the unit to carry out this raid
-Felt that his unit needed to see action before the war was over
-Slept in a hammock with his Thompson submachine gun nearby
-Carried a Thompson SMG through India and Burma
-Also armed with bayonets, but never had to use them
-Eventually used the machine gun to rake the river island with fire
-Japanese forces were either forced to retreat, or were killed by the barrage
(00:50:05) End of the War Pt. 1
-Moved to one (or two) more bases before the war ended
(00:50:18) Stationed in Burma Pt. 3
-They always made sure to have someone on the gun position at night at all times
-They had Indian troops with them that helped guide and protect American soldiers
-Regarded to be expert swordsmen
-Also worked with Chinese and Australian soldiers in Burma
-One night the telephone system went out
-He had to go out and investigate because he was the communications chief
-Had to be careful because the Chinese were trigger happy
-He crawled out to the first gun position and found that it was vacant
-Started searching and almost shot the gunner
-Thought he was a Japanese soldier hiding in the brush
-Closest that he ever got to killing someone
-The gunner had gotten scared and was hiding in the brush
-In the process he stepped on a telephone wire and knocked out the line
-Another night he was on the gun position and his captain came up to him, visibly scared
-Thought that the Japanese were attacking their position
-Bob explained that the men were bored and were just shooting for fun
(00:56:29) Radio Training
-While in India he had to learn radio code
-Had to be able to translate and transcribe eighteen words per minute
-Also learned Morse code
-Had a tool that would translate the radio code into a secret code
-He also had a small sheet with secret codes on it
-Ordered to eat the sheet if he thought he was going to be captured
(00:58:31) End of the War Pt. 2
-From Burma he flew back into India aboard a small, two seat plane
-Pilot knew how to expertly navigate the mountains
-Sent to a town outside of Calcutta
-He had Burmese money with him, which was worthless in India
-Indians had killed a GI for trying to pass off Burmese money as Indian money
-Decided to give it a try anyway in a small shop
-Left the shop and the merchant discovered that the money was Burmese
-A mob formed and chased him and his friends down
�-They managed to get back to the train station and escape
(01:02:55) Officers’ Displacement Center
-He was sent to an Officers’ Displacement Center in India for the rest of his time
-Place to process and hold commissioned officers that were returning home
-He ate well and drank well there
-Played pranks on each other
-He had an Indian civilian that cleaned his quarters
-Attended an Indian wedding, but got kicked out by Military Police because he was too drunk
(01:09:02) Veterans’ Group Involvement
-He is now a member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars
-Enjoys drinking beer at the hall and the fish dinners they have on Fridays
(01:10:09) Hospitalization in Burma
-In Burma he was sent to a field hospital for about two weeks
-Had a temperature of 104oF
-Doctors didn’t think that he was going to make it
-He had an unknown disease and still doesn’t know to this day what he had
(01:11:05) Living Conditions
-Ate spam, dehydrated potatoes, and dehydrated eggs
-When they were near an Air Force base they were able to eat better
-They had two types of rations: C rations and K rations
-C rations came in a can
-Had a piece of candy, spam, and a canned vegetable
-K rations came in a cardboard box and were more meager
-Basically lived off of rations during his time in Burma
(01:13:24) Working with the Flying Tigers
-The Flying Tigers (or rather the unit they became) operated out of the airstrips they guarded
-The Flying Tigers had started off in China, Burma, and India
-American pilots that flew missions against the Japanese very early in the war
-Feels that only the British got the majority of the credit in the CBI Theatre
-The Flying Tigers were outnumbered and outgunned against the Japanese
-Still inflicted heavy casualties on the Japanese and took few casualties
(01:17:18) Glider Infantry
-He was technically part of a glider infantry unit, but never did any combat landings
-Only trained to do a combat landing
-Heard about one glider unit that suffered heavy casualties due to a bad landing
-He was part of the 667th Anti-Aircraft Airborne Machine Gun Battery
(01:19:29) Coming Home Pt. 1
-Got back to the United States in December 1945
-Pulled into New York City
-The voyage home was rough
-Had an abandon ship alarm when they were 250 miles off the coast of the U.S.
-Everyone had to go up on deck in case they had to get off the ship
-The ship listed so heavily to each side that it was almost impossible to walk
(01:22:03) Getting Drafted and Training
-Sent to Detroit for a physical examination
-If your teeth were bad they were drilled right there on the spot
�-He was sent to Camp Wolters, Texas for thirteen months
-NOTE: If he was drafted in May 1943 and was in Oran by December 1943 he was
most likely only in Camp Wolters for thirteen weeks
-From Texas he was sent to Camp Patrick Henry, Virginia
(01:23:59) End of the War Pt. 3
-Hearing the news about the atomic bombs was a relief
-Meant that the war would be coming to an end soon
-Things started easing up
(01:25:02) Deployment Pt. 2
-Got to Oran in December 1943
-Saw ships in Oran that had been damaged by bombs, or mines
(01:27:07) Coming Home Pt. 2
-Got home in time for Christmas 1945
-Took a train back to Grand Rapids, Michigan
-Slept on his duffel bag
-Took a small freight train from Grand Rapids to Muskegon
-The train dropped him off pretty close to his parents’ home
-He remembers walking in the front door and seeing his mother in the living room
-He kept all of the letters that his parents sent him while he was in the service
-Remembers his mother sent him some candy apples for one Christmas
-He was only twenty one years old by the time he got back home
-He had been engaged to a girl before he was deployed
-She couldn’t wait for him to come home though and got married while he was gone
(01:32:49) Life after the War
-He went back to work for American Coil Spring Company in Muskegon
-Became an electrician
-Got a better job at General Telephone Company
-Got paid 75¢ an hour
-Took a college course on solid state heating
-Took a metallurgy course at Grand Rapids Junior College
-Lasted six months
-Designed a few electrical components and got them patented
-Got an electrical job in Kalamazoo, Michigan
-Dealing with primitive surveillance cameras
-Worked there for three years until the company went bankrupt
-Saw a newspaper ad that Montague Schools needed an electronics teacher
-Applied for the job and got it at Montague High School
-Working in a two room building that was separate from the high school
-Preparing students for vocational type skills
-Had students come in from five different school districts
-Retired from Montague Schools in 1989 after working there for eleven years
-Always jumped at the opportunity to get a new job if it meant better pay
-He had a job in an electronics department for a major manufacturer
-Designing vacuums and floor scrubbers
-Went to work for Challenge Machinery making industrial sized paper cutters
-Designed the controls for the paper cutters
�-Worked for a ball bearing manufacturer
-Travelled around the United States for his work
-Saw California, New York, New Jersey, the southern states, and Florida
-Built a house with his stepfather in 1946
-Has lived there ever since
-Has been married for sixty eight years at the time of the interview
-Has four children
-Has three grandchildren, had a fourth that died of spina bifida
-All of his children still live in Michigan and have had successful lives
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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LoperB1766V
Title
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Loper, Homer "Bob" (Interview outline and video), 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Loper was born in 1924 in Central Lake, Michigan. He grew up in various locations in Michigan until his family settled down in Muskegon, Michigan. He was drafted in 1943 and was sent to Camp Wolters, Texas for basic training. From there he was sent to Camp Patrick Henry, Virginia where he was transferred from the infantry to a glider infantry airborne unit, specifically the 667th Anti-Aircraft Airborne Machine Gun Battery. He was sent overseas and reached Oran, Algeria by December 1943 and received further training there and then sailed for the China-Burma-India Theatre. He received radio training near Calcutta, India and was then sent into Burma. He and his unit traveled from base to base setting up machine gun positions to protect airstrips used by the 10th Air Force from Japanese air and land forces. When the war was over he was sent back to India and then took a ship back to the United States and was discharged in December 1945.
Creator
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Loper, Homer
Contributor
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Zwart, Brian (Interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Source
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<a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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2015-04-29
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a446b8f3124852dd3b8d9ca7c8de44a3.pdf
14caa5948a92766b2ce18af8dd9b04c7
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Obed López-Zacarias
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/2/2012
Biography and Description
English
Obed López-Zacarias is founder of the Latin American Defense Organization (LADO) that operated
primarily from the late 1960s until the mid-1970s, organizing for a caseworker union and for the
dignified treatment of welfare recipients at the Wicker Park Welfare Office of Chicago. LADO was also
instrumental in helping to develop the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center, the longest standing Puerto
Rican Cultural Center in the city of Chicago.
Mr. López-Zacarias worked closely with the Young Lords, including the protest at Fat Larry’s real estate
office at Armitage and Bissell Streets, in various demonstrations at the Wicker Park Welfare Office, and
many others. To give one example, Fat Larry’s Bissell Realty was well connected with the local
neighborhood Lincoln Park mafia and the old patronage boss system of Paddy Bauer and on at least one
occasion, Fat Larry pointed a sub machine gun at a Puerto Rican restaurant tenant who was late on his
rent. The Young Lords were informed about the incident and marched in a snowstorm accompanied by
members of LADO to picket in front of his office. When some representatives of the picket entered the
real estate office, Fat Larry pointed his gun at José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Then he ran and locked himself
up in a back office until the police arrived. The police arrived and immediately searched Mr. Jiménez for
�weapons. Meanwhile, a LADO photographer documented the entire event and published many of those
photos in the LADO newspaper the following week. 20,000 copies were circulated widely by the Young
Lords in the Latino section of Lincoln Park.
Mr. López-Zacarias became the official envoy sent to the Presbyterian Conference in Texas by the Young
Lords and the Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition, during the McCormick Seminary occupation in 1969.
When the occupation was over and all the demands were won, LADO received $25,000 to open up a
free community clinic where many of the Latin Kings volunteered. The clinic was located on North Ave.
near Western in the Wicker Park neighborhood.
Spanish
Obed López Zacarias es el que fundió el Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), que empezó
desde los 1960s hasta los medio 1970s, organizando para una unión de asistente social y por
tratamiento digno con los quien reciben ayuda del Estado en la oficina de Wicker Park Welfare en
Chicago. LADO también fue instrumental en el desarrollo del Segundo Ruiz Belvis Centro Cultural, que es
el Centro Cultural Puertorriqueño más viejo en chicago.
Señor López-Zacarias trabajo cerca con los Young Lords, incluyendo el protesto en la oficina de Fat Larry
en Armitage y Bissell Street, igual que otros. Para dar un ejemple, Fat Larry’s Bissell Realty era buen
conectada con la mafia de Lincoln Park igual que Paddy Bauer, y por lo menos una ocasión Fat Larry
directo un pistola al rentero puertorriqueño porque estaba tarde en pagar la renta. Los Young Lords se
informaron de la ocasión y marcharon con miembros de LADO a la oficina de Fat Larry. Cuando un
representativo entro a su oficina, Fat Larry directo su pistola a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Luego corrió y se
encerró en una parte de su oficina hasta que la policía llego. La policía inmediatamente cacheó a Señor
Jiménez por armas. Un fotógrafo capturo todo la ocasión y publico muchas de las fotos en el periódico
de LADO la próxima semana. 20,000 copias fueron circuladas por los Young Lords en la sección Latina de
Lincoln Park.
Señor López-Zacarias fue a la conferencia de Presbyterian en Tejas para ser el ministro público para los
Young Lords y la Lincoln Park Poor Peoples Coalition, durante la McCormick Seminary ocupación en
1969. Cuando la ocupación termino y las exigencias ganadas, LADO recibió $25,000 para abrir una clínica
que es gratis para la comunidad donde muchos de los Latin Kings volantearon. La clínica fue construida
en North Ave, cerca de Western en el vecindario de Wicker Park
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Okay, do you want to give me your name?
OBED LOPEZ-ZACARIAS:
I am -- in English, right?
JJ:
In English. (inaudible)
OL:
Okay, yeah, right, right. I am Obed Lopez-Zacarias. Obed, O-B-E-D, LopezZacarias. Zacarias is my mother’s last name, and Lopez is my father’s name, of
course. I was born in San Luis Potosí, which is a state and city in the central part
of Mexico. San Luis Potosí, it has a reputation of -- well, has played an important
role several times in the history of Mexico. [00:01:00] One of the documents of
the revolution is -- the 1910 revolution was called the Plan de San Luis Potosí.
San Luis Potosí is a very conservative city. I suppose you could say that
Catholicism is the main religion, and it was, again, very conservative. So, for me,
it was the first experience of really being in the minority because my parents
converted to [00:02:00] Protestantism when they were young, when they got
married. So that all of us were raised in a non-Catholic setting. I believe that is
one of the things that began to shape my personality because we felt -- we were
outsiders. I mean, when there were Fiestas patronales, we were not part of that.
(laughs) And I don’t know if it was my imagination or not, but I have a recollection
of from time to time our house being the object of stones thrown at us. I don’t
know. Maybe it’s my imagination. But that gives you a sense of our feeling of
not being part of the culture of San Luis Potosí.
JJ:
So, how many siblings? Because you said ours, how many siblings? [00:03:00]
1
�OL:
I’m sorry?
JJ:
How many siblings, brothers and sisters?
OL:
In all, there were eight brothers and sisters, three sisters -- [Omar Naum?], the
youngest, and I have another brother called [Asael?], only Biblical names. After
Asael came, I came, and then, [Ephraim?], and then our three sisters, [Naomi?],
[Prisilla?], and [Deborah?]. My oldest brother was [Hector Javier, Hector
Javier?]. Hector was the first one in the family that came to Chicago. [00:04:00]
Sometime in, talking to him --
JJ:
What year did he come?
OL:
Actually, it was towards the middle ’40s, I think maybe the end of the ’40s. But
he mentioned that, while he loved the university life, the only thing is that, you
know, when you’re in the university, there all kinds of cultural activities or social
activities. And very soon he realized that, well, that he didn’t have the means to
fully participate because even though my father was employed, he was a railroad
worker, which at that time was a very -- one of the few jobs that were well paid.
JJ:
Here, or --
OL:
In Mexico, in Mexico. [00:05:00]
JJ:
And your mom? What did she do?
OL:
My mother -- she raised us. That was a full time job for her. (laughs) You know,
(inaudible). And my mother came from a place called Santa Maria del Rio in San
Luis Potosí, and my father from a rancho called San Francisco del Rincón in
Guanajuato. So, they met -- my father soon -- I don’t know how, but he got
connected with a missionary, [Francisco H. Soltero?], who was the founder of our
2
�denomination in San Luis Potosí. And it was called Iglesia de los Peregrinos.
[00:06:00] But then, again, my brother very soon saw that he could not really
afford university life. He didn’t have the means to participate in all these things.
So, at one point, he and about -- I suppose about 10 other friends of his that
were going to the university decided to come to Chicago. And so, that’s how we
began. He was in Chicago for several years before my oldest sister, Deborah,
joined him. Deborah was a private accountant, contadora privada, privada.
[00:07:00] So, she came. When she came to Chicago, she found employment
with -- I think he was a Cuban editor of Spanish ancestry. I remember his last
name was [Radelat?]. So, that’s how they established themselves in Chicago.
Then eventually -JJ:
This was in the ’40s?
OL:
I think it was more in the ’50s, yeah. So, it was finally --
JJ:
In what area? Do you know what area of Chicago?
OL:
They always lived in the North Side, in fact on Humboldt Boulevard. Well,
Humboldt Boulevard, as you know, has gone through cycles. They were the first
Mexicans that came to live in that area. [00:08:00]
JJ:
In the Humboldt Park area?
OL:
Yeah. And the people that rented to them were Lithuanians, also immigrants. I
think that’s why they were kind of sympathetic to them. Then they were
fortunate. When they came, they came with all their documentation. They didn’t
have to go through the pain and suffering of people who have to cross without
any documentation. And then, they brought the whole family. I remember that
3
�when I came I must have been about 17 years old. And I was interested in
continuing my education. And I remember that one day -- I think I answered
some ad for English classes. And a man that was selling whatever method they
had came. [00:09:00] And then, Hector said, my oldest brother said he might as
well take me to a day school, that happens to be [Wells?] High School. So, he
took me there. At that time, the principal was -JJ:
This was what year?
OL:
Probably it was ’57 or ’58. At that time, the principal of the school was a very fine
gentleman. I think he lived for many years in Spain, and I think also Puerto Rico.
His name was [Dr. Edwin Goodrich?]. He was a very [00:10:00] kind man. And
when I came for -- I think I wanted to be in the music class, and they gave me a
test on my ability to vocalize, I guess. And the teacher -- also very kind woman -I suppose she was very impressed because she got the principal to come to
listen to me. And that led to at least one or two school assemblies I was given
the opportunity to sing. So, it was quite a nice experience. Also, I appreciated
the fact that being one of the first Mexican students, they gave me an opportunity
to [00:11:00] participate, and that gave me a bit of prominence. I really
appreciated that.
JJ:
What type of song? I mean, what were you singing?
OL:
One of them was (singing in Spanish). And so on and so forth. Ay-Ay-Ay, and
then, another song I cannot recall which one it was. But I had very good
memories of that experience of going to school. I was already, again, older than
most of the students in my class.
4
�JJ:
So, did they put you down a grade or anything like that?
OL:
No, I never had that experience. [00:12:00] Fortunately, I came with a sense of
self confidence. I was not intimidated by the new setting. And I think this is due
to the fact that from very early age, I had the urge to organize, and that is
because we lived in the -- there were three barrios or neighborhoods that were -on the other side of the tracks now they say -- on the other side of the tracks.
These were made up of people that were workers in the railroad or some other
field. But it was a --
JJ:
So [what were they?] organizing for at that time? [00:13:00] This was in San Luis
Potosí?
OL:
Yeah. Well, see, what happened is that -- I remember that at a very early age, I
participated in a footrace in the Alameda Central which was contiguous to -- on
this other side of the tracks, the good side of the track, so to speak. And from
there, I got to say, “Well, if they have these kinds of activities, we should have
one ourselves.” So, that was the first time that I decided that I was going to
organize a race for the people in our neighborhood. So, I developed the idea of
developing what I called “Maratón de los Barrios.” Los barrios mean industry, la
colonia San Luis, which is where I lived, la colonia Ferrocarrilera, and la colonia
Industrial. [00:14:00] Those were three neighborhoods that I felt I would like to
organize something. And they were successful. There was the newspaper at the
time, El Heraldo de San Luis Potosí had a good sports writer. And he
encouraged me. In fact, he’s the one that, I guess was our padrino because he
began to write about these events. So, it was very good, the way in which we
5
�were able to make connections with him. [00:15:00] Then also, I have
recollection that when we were in high school -JJ:
In Wells? This is in Wells?
OL:
No, back in San Luis Potosí before I came to Chicago. La Asociación de
Estudiantes Normalistas, the Normalista school -- the student association. And
that was the first time that I had my first taste of organizing because traditionally
the people that are in charge of the association of students would be the people
in the professional grades, third, fourth, and -- no, fourth, fifth, and sixth grades.
[00:16:00] Those were the ones that were ready to become teachers. But then,
the people in high school -- there were three groups of high school for first year
and then two more for second year and then one group for third year. So that in
terms of numbers, the lower grades were the ones that had the numbers and
more students. So, we developed a slate, the slate mainly us, the estudiantes de
secundaria. And we had two or three from the professional grades so that we
would have a balanced ticket. [00:17:00] And we won. We won those elections.
JJ:
And this was just passing flyers out or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
OL:
It was mostly mouth to mouth, especially each classroom -- well, we had our
groupings.
JJ:
So, you went classroom to classroom.
OL:
Yeah. So, we participated in the elections, and we won. Then the secretary of
the school, the secretaria de la escuela, whose last name was [Alderete?], his
brother was, I think, the secretary of the local branch of the official party, the PRI,
Partido Revolucionario Institucional. So, I think he gave us the idea to come and
6
�visit his brother. [00:18:00] And then, his brother, when we met with him, he
arranged for us to have a meeting with Don Gonzalo N. Santos who was a
former governor but was in fact el cacique. He was the political boss of the state.
And he was not only the political boss of the state, but also, he was prominent in
the national politics.
JJ:
He (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) cacique.
OL:
El cacique, right, Gonzalo N. Santos. So, he arranged for us to go and meet him
at his home. He lived in a part of San Luis Potosí called La Huasteca, Huasteca
Potosina. La Huasteca was a region, very kind of -- more like [00:19:00] tropical.
Huasteca Potosina included the state of San Luis Potosí, the state of
Guanajuato, and the state of Veracruz, I think. It’s an extensive region. So, we
went. And through is intervention, we were able to secure the use of El Teatro de
la Paz. El Teatro de la Paz, that’s only for really big functions. But as students,
we were able to use it for our yearly activity. Another time, [00:20:00] another
brother of mine, Ephraim, was a part of a group that a teacher had that put in a -performed una zarzuela, a Spanish kind of operetta called “La Marcha de Cádiz.”
JJ:
La Marcha de Cádiz?
OL:
La Marcha de Cádiz.
JJ:
And what does that mean, the Cádiz?
OL:
Cádiz is a region in Spain.
JJ:
Of Spain?
OL:
Right. And so, it was a very unusual year when we were in charge of the
association of students because nobody ever had used El Teatro de la Paz for
7
�the activities of the students. And to the best of my understanding, afterwards
nothing like that every happened again. So, I think we left somewhat of a mark.
When we left our city, San Luis Potosí -JJ:
So, the whole family came? [00:21:00]
OL:
The whole family came, actually.
JJ:
Including your mother and father?
OL:
Exactly, yeah.
JJ:
You said everything was up and up, legal and everything so you didn’t have to
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
OL:
Oh, yes, yes, yes. It wasn’t that difficult then. And I think the only thing -- if you
were over 18 you had to have a carta de trabajo, a letter of employment.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) legal channel, legal process.
OL:
Yeah. So we were able to come, all of the family really, all at once. When we
came, my brother and my sister were living at 1829 North Humboldt Boulevard.
[00:22:00] It was beautiful. Again, it seemed like we were the only Mexicans.
Around the corner from where we lived, there used to be another Mexican family.
But the man in the family was a teacher. So, that --
JJ:
And even at that time, this was, what around -- in the ’60s or ’50s?
OL:
Late ’50s.
JJ:
Okay. So, there were also -- there were Puerto Ricans also at that time?
OL:
I got to meet some -- there might be one or two families, I think because I
remember --
JJ:
It was still a Polish community?
8
�OL:
Polish, German, I think, and I guess Norwegian too because Norwegian Hospital
close by and there were one or two other institutions that had Norwegian
[00:23:00] in its title.
JJ:
Because this was more like on Humboldt Boulevard, like you said, it wasn’t -- you
know, Wicker Park, there [was?] Puerto Ricans living there at that time?
OL:
I believe -- there might have been families, but it was not predominantly Puerto
Rican. No, no, no. I think that happened much later. So, that was my
recollections of the first years that I was in Chicago.
JJ:
And how did people get along? You said people got along pretty well because
they were immigrants too, new immigrants?
OL:
Yeah, and I guess also because there were so few of us. I think the overt racism
came to the floor when we were crowding in. [00:24:00] And especially -- I mean,
the Puerto Ricans were more assertive, could you say, or louder? I don’t know
how you would call it. (laughs) But I think Mexicans -- we tended to be subdued
and not make any waves. And also because at that time, you’re trying to learn,
you’re not trying to assert your identity. You’re trying to learn the language, learn
the customs.
JJ:
So, you were like 19, 17, around there?
OL:
Well, I came at the age of 17. So, I was 18, 19.
JJ:
Then you went to Wells High School you said?
OL:
Right, right.
JJ:
So, you weren’t working at all? [00:25:00]
9
�OL:
No, no. Well, I worked for a few months in a little shop in the South Side of
Chicago. They made batteries. And that was when my brother told me to go to
school. And then, after that -- I don’t know exactly when, but I found a job. I
always liked to dress very well at that age. My suits were always from -- there
was a store downtown called [Baskins?]. I didn’t have many suits, but the ones
that I bought were really -- now that I think of it, they were very good suits. So, I
don’t know exactly how it was [00:26:00] that I went to visit a store. I don’t think
that I was responding to an ad. Somehow I went to that store on -- it was
Halsted and la doce, 12th, Roosevelt Road, you know. And somehow -- I don’t
know how, but I got --
JJ:
It was where they had the open market, you mean?
OL:
No, it was a big store. I think that was one of the two big stores in the area, right.
And I don’t know how, but I got employed there. And I think maybe because -- I
mean, again, I always liked to dress well. I didn’t know what the sport dudes
were -- you know, the [la ropa de descanso?]. So, most of the time, I was
wearing a suit. (laughs) So, that’s how I got that job there. I was there for
probably two years. [00:27:00] And I think after that, that’s when I got drafted,
like everybody else. I was drafted into the Army. And then, I went into the Army
and I was there for two years. Those two years were also very, very interesting
because of the fact that by that time, I had become -- I don’t know how -- I
became involved with the people from the 26th of July Movement. There was a
man that was more or less the head person.
JJ:
What was that movement about?
10
�OL:
The 26th of July Movement was the movement of which Fidel Castro was part.
[00:28:00] I think the name comes from a time -- I think the time when Fidel
Castro was first arrested and spent some time in jail.
JJ:
The trial, [they had the?] big trial?].
OL:
And I think out of that came the 26th of July Movement. And I had a friend -- I
think I had a friend -- his last name was [Franklin?]. His father was a Communist,
and his father was one of a group of Communists that at one point were jailed.
He spent time in jail. So, getting to know him -- it was good, and he was a good -
JJ:
So, he went to jail here in Chicago, though?
OL:
Yes, in Chicago. I think that was at the [00:29:00] height of the witch hunt when
Communists were, I suppose what they called card-carrying Communists were
persecuted, put in jail. So then, I was drafted. And when I was drafted, one of
the things that I knew was that you never tried to hide anything in your record.
(laughs) So, my list was fairly long because I became associated with people that
were part of a local bunch of the 26th of July Movement. The head of that group
was a man, [Manuel Sanchez?]. [00:30:00] He lived on Fullerton, by the way,
Fullerton close to Humboldt Boulevard, I think. And, let’s see. So, when I was in
the Army, I had to fill out all my affiliations, so the 26th of July Movement, all the
Fair Play for Cuba Committee. That was a group that -- I don’t know if you recall
the name of a man that was the owner of theaters, Spanish theaters.
JJ:
[Jan Rosen?].
OL:
Jan Rosen, yeah. It was through him that I got involved in the --
11
�JJ:
He had fought in Spain, also, the --
OL:
Oh, yes, correct, correct. He had fought in the -- with the Republican side in
Spain. [00:31:00] That was when Franco came to power, I think.
JJ:
(inaudible) He owned the 3-Penny Cinema, the Biograph.
OL:
Exactly, exactly, Teatro de las Americas also. Teatro de las Americas. He was a
very good man. He was a very good man. But then, again, when I went into the
Army, I had to put all those affiliations. And then, the intelligence service of the
Army tried to interview me. But I had found -- when I came into the Army, they
put me in what they called flagging action, F-L-A-G-G-I-N-G, a flagging action,
which meant that you [00:32:00] -- I guess they put you in a state of suspense.
You could not be put in the regular activities of the Army. So, I was put on the
flagging action. And while I was there, there was another young guy that was
connected to another very good family that I used to know. [Dick Criley?] was his
name, C-R-I-L-E-Y, Dick. And his wife was an organizer for U.A., for one of the
progressive locals at that time.
JJ:
Was it against war and fascism?
OL:
I’m sorry?
JJ:
Youth Against War and Fascism?
OL:
No, no, it was -- I cannot recall the name. [00:33:00] But through this couple -well, Mr. Criley was the head of a group called Chicago Committee to Defend the
Bill of Rights. And so, through them, I met these men who were also in the Army
and also was put on that flagging action status. And so, with him, I was able to
develop a -- our strategy was based on the fact that before they put you in a
12
�flagging action, the Army has to let you know that they are going to put you in
that status [00:34:00] to give you an opportunity to say whatever you need to say.
But since they didn’t do that with us before they put us in the flagging action, then
every time the intelligence service tried to interrogate me, I said, “Well, I refuse to
participate,” on the grounds that they had not followed the Army procedures, and
the fact that we had put in a complaint with the Inspector General of the Army
against that kind of action on the part of the Army. So, every time they tried to
interview me, I would go back to the fact that I considered all this illegal and that I
had a complaint with the Inspector General and until such time as that complaint
was acted upon, I was not going to participate. [00:35:00] And so, that’s how I
avoided being interrogated, because once you open yourself up to interrogation,
they can trick you into all kinds of things. So, that’s basically my experience in
the Army. So, by the time -- when I came out of the Army, I had to go through
these pruebas de fuego, I had been tested.
JJ:
So, you came out when? What year?
OL:
In ’64. So, it took two years before the riots. And when the riots came, well --
JJ:
So, the riots -- when you say the riots, you mean --
OL:
The June of 1966, what is called the [00:36:00] --
JJ:
The riot in Division Street.
OL:
Yeah, the Division Street riots of 1966.
JJ:
And what was that about? What was that about?
OL:
Well, my understanding is that at the end of the first Puerto Rican festival, which
was in June of ’66, on that Sunday, the day after --
13
�JJ:
You mean the Puerto Rican parade, the first Puerto Rican parade?
OL:
Right, the first Puerto Rican parade. That Sunday afternoon when people were
celebrating in the park, there was an incident where a police officer shot this guy,
[Jose Salin?] Cruz was his name. And that led to the people in the park that
observed that to begin to [00:37:00] react spontaneously. And they could not
quell the riots. Well, they began on Sunday, but then, on the two following days,
the riots continued and the police were -- I guess they didn’t know how to handle
it. My understanding is that at one point, Monday or Tuesday, the whole police
force throughout the city -- they were brought into the area, but still they did not
have the ability to put down the demonstrations.
JJ:
So, all these police cars are on the street? They’re driving through the street and
people see that? And that brings more people. [00:38:00]
OL:
Well, in fact, I think that when it began to happen -- again, the cars would pass by
and they would throw stones at them. It wasn’t like the police was in charge of
the situation. The people was in the middle of the situation, but they were not in
charge.
JJ:
So, they’re just driving by like targets because they’re getting thrown rocks at
them? They’re getting pelted?
OL:
I guess the idea was to take control of the situation, but there wasn’t, again,
something they could do because, again, they were not prepared for that kind of
eventuality, not for a riot. I think in the following years they developed -- they
were able to do that.
JJ:
So, it lasted about a week or --
14
�OL:
I think it was two days of actual fighting, Sunday and then Monday and Tuesday,
to the best of my recollection. [00:39:00]
JJ:
How did it stop?
OL:
I guess -- I wouldn’t say people run out of steam, but I think the police slowly
began to assert themselves in the area.
JJ:
Did any organizations play any role at all?
OL:
No. Well, at that time, there were no organizations. The first organization that
came out of the riots was the Spanish Action Committee.
JJ:
That came out of the riots?
OL:
Yeah, Spanish Action Committee. And the head of that group was [Juan Diaz?].
My understanding is that Juan Diaz was on the staff of the Cardinals Committee.
I believe the Cardinals Committee had already been activated before the riot.
[00:40:00]
JJ:
Yeah, they were active (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) San Juan.
OL:
I think it was mostly with the Caballeros de --
JJ:
San Juan.
OL:
De San Juan, right. That was the -- I suppose Caballers de San --
JJ:
They organized in the ’50s. They were kind of like -- that was at the point when
they were beginning to go downhill and new groups were coming in.
OL:
Right. Yeah, because first of all, they were controlled by the church. And when
the riots happened, the church wasn’t going to endorse the riots. They were part
of the people that tried to stop it.
JJ:
But people were angry, you’re saying.
15
�OL:
Oh yeah.
JJ:
How were they acting (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) besides the riot?
[00:41:00]
OL:
They just began to fight with the police, throw rocks at them.
JJ:
So, the Spanish Action Committee came out of that. Did LADO come out of that?
OL:
To the best of my understanding, yeah, the Spanish National Committee came
out of that. Now, because of my orientation and also because I was Mexican, I
wanted to support the Puerto Rican community and support the group that
seemed to be the main group. But even after several months, I know that at
[00:42:00] one point in some conversation that Juan Diaz was having -- you
know, [just having?] conversation in the street, you know -- that he mentioned
divisively, kind of (Spanish), that he said words to the effect that, “Well, Obed
Lopez doesn’t know that the reason he’s not admitted to SAC is because he’s a
Mexican.” So, I said, “Well, okay.” (laughs) I just assimilated that. So, it was then
that I thought, “Well, if I cannot be in SAC because I’m Mexican, I still want to do
something.” So, that’s when the idea began to germinate that we had to have a
different organization. And by the name -- [00:43:00] I think the name give it
quite the definition. It was a Latin organization, Latin American organization. It
was a defense organization. It was aggressive in the political sense. And it was
an organization.
JJ:
But it came out of SAC.
OL:
Well, no, it did not come out of SAC because I wanted to be part of SAC but I
couldn’t be part of SAC because I was Mexican.
16
�JJ:
It was a reaction to SAC.
OL:
That’s the best way to put it. It’s a reaction to an organization that was not Latin,
open to others but Puerto Ricans. That’s how we came and established the Latin
American Defense Organization.
JJ:
But later on you did work together (audio cuts out). [00:44:00] Did you march
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
OL:
There were marches. We also participated -- right. Well, let me see, I think there
was -- I don’t know exactly, but I think a few days after the riots, I think there was
an attempt to march to city hall. And in fact, the march to city hall took place.
But I remember [Father Headley?] and another father -- I can’t remember his
name priest.
JJ:
[Leo T. Mahon?]? Those were the two leaders that (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible).
OL:
Yeah, him. They tried to change the -- to the police station, that [00:45:00] was
the first march, to the police station. And they were trying to stop us from going
to the police station. So, I’m watching how they wanted to get people back into
the Humboldt area. But people just kept going until we ended up at the -- was
that 13th district police station, I believe?
JJ:
Fourteen.
OL:
Fourteen district police station.
JJ:
[Wood Street?]?
OL:
Yeah. So, that was the first march that I recall being part of. I was not in a
leadership position. I was just part of the group.
17
�JJ:
Okay, so then, LADO forms at that time.
OL:
So yeah, so it took some time because we were trying to see if we could be part
of and supportive of the Puerto Rican organization. [00:46:00] But when that
didn’t happen, then we decided to establish the Latin American Defense
Organization.
JJ:
Besides admitting other people, what were some of the main issues that the Latin
American Defense Organization were looking at?
OL:
At the beginning, I wanted to get a hold of some issues. The first issue that I
thought I wanted to see if I could get something going was in reference -- the
colmados versus National Tea food stores. I remember that there was a National
Tea food store on Division and Washington, I believe. [00:47:00] And one day, I
went and I asked, “Do you have any” -- I think Puerto Ricans working -- and they
didn’t have any employees that were Puerto Ricans. So, I took that as a basis to
develop a campaign “Compra al Colmado,” no to national food stores. It was
short lived.
JJ:
Like a boycott.
OL:
Right. It was short lived because by that time, Jesse Jackson already had
“Operation Breadbasket.” And I remember I went at least to one of their
meetings. But I said, “This issue is already in the hands of the Black leadership.”
[00:48:00]
JJ:
So, you were moving right away, organizing from the very beginning.
OL:
Right. That’s right. Exactly, exactly.
JJ:
(inaudible) But you didn’t come for that reason. You came for school.
18
�OL:
Say that again?
JJ:
When you came from Mexico, you came to go to school?
OL:
When I came from Mexico, we came to live here. We were immigrants.
JJ:
And right away, you got involved?
OL:
No, actually no, because, again, for two years -- we came in ’57, I believe. Fiftyeight and on, we -- I was just adjusting myself to the new
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
OL:
Then in 1962, I was drafted into the Army.
JJ:
Right, the Army. So when you came out of the Army --
OL:
So, I came out of the Army in ’64. So, it took two years [00:49:00] between the
time that I came out of the Army to the time the riots took place.
JJ:
But were you dissatisfied within the Army while you were there, or no?
OL:
I was not dissatisfied. I went because I had to go because I was called. But
again, when I went into the Army, when I had to fill out all my information, I had to
list all the organizations that I was part of. And that’s where the Fair Play for
Cuba came, the 26th of July Movement, especially those two. So, imagine in
1962 to be pro-Cuba and being pro-Castro -- so, that’s already a flagging -- that’s
when the red light came up. [00:50:00] They had to initiate an investigation.
JJ:
So, there was an investigation?
OL:
Yeah, right. But then they did not follow the Army procedures in the investigation.
Again, according to the Army procedures, they had to give me a chance to
explain myself, and since they did not do that, that was my basis for not
cooperating with them. And then, I put my complaint to the Inspector General.
19
�So, anytime they wanted to interview me, I said, “Well, I decline,” on the basis
that the investigation was illegal and that I had a complaint pending with the
Inspector General. So, that’s how I protected myself all the time that I was in the
Army. [00:51:00]
JJ:
Okay. And so, now you have LADO, the Latin American Defense Organization,
and they’re working on -- what other issues are they working on?
OL:
Well, when we established LADO -- and again, I think it was maybe around ’68 --
JJ:
So, it was after the riot of ’66.
OL:
Yes, it was after the riot.
JJ:
So, during the riot of ’66, you were just trying to --
OL:
I was simply an observer, like an interested observer. I stayed in the periphery of
the action. I recall placing myself in by 11th and -- the corner were the Latin
Kings --
JJ:
Oh, 11th and Schiller?
OL:
11th and Schiller. That was the first time that I observed [00:52:00] -- what’s his
name? The head of the Latin Kings.
JJ:
[Phil Juarbe?]?
OL:
Phil, yeah. Phil Juarbe. Juarbe. Phil Juarbe. And simply observed -- that was
when I became aware of him and I became one of the Latin Kings. I think there
were other groups, but the Latin Kings were the ones that --
JJ:
The Young Sinners, were there the Young Sinners? Was another group that was
there? But the Latin Kings -- that was the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). So,
did you start working with them?
20
�OL:
No, because, again, at that point, I wasn’t -- I mean, I wasn’t anybody in a
leadership position. [00:53:00]
JJ:
So, in 1968.
OL:
But then, I think it was ’67 when there were some -- the political campaign I think
either for the election or reelection of Paul Douglas. And that’s what gave us the
opportunity to hook up with labor because I don’t recall exactly how we came to
know that there was a labor group that needed to work in the elections but
needed to hook up with an organization. So, with the organization -- so that’s
when we had -- [00:54:00] the first time that we had a place. That was 2322
West North Avenue. That’s the first place. The labor group rented the facility,
and then, we came in as the, quote-unquote, the community organization. So,
that’s how we began. We had the advantage over any other group that we had a
place that we could call our own. And that was when -- I think it was because
one of the founders of LADO is [Olga Pedroza?]. Olga Pedroza already was a
college graduate. And I think that she began to work as a caseworker. So, it was
[00:55:00] through her that we more or less began to see the work in the welfare
department and how the Puerto Rican families had to be part of the welfare.
They had to receive welfare benefits since the family was not employed. That’s
how we established our connection with the first families.
JJ:
[Community with the family?]. So, that’s how you kind of build the base.
OL:
Right. It was mostly the women. The women would go to the welfare
department.
21
�JJ:
So I understand, was there also a union that you were trying to (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible)?
OL:
Oh, that’s right. The [00:56:00] welfare employees were trying to form what
became, I think, an independent union of public aid employees. So, we had a
good working relationship with them, and that was helpful because they were
trying to organize their union so the case workers were very cooperative with us.
They helped us, in a sense, to be more effective.
JJ:
Did you have any demonstrations or anything?
OL:
Well, that was when we began to have demonstrations -- I don’t remember, to be
truthful, how we began to -- well, first we would come to the welfare office to help
on a day to day basis. [00:57:00] And that’s, I think, how we began to build a
nucleus of people on welfare that related to us. Then when the elections for -when the efforts to elect Paul Douglas came, labor needed a group. They had a
facility. We became the group, and that’s how we began to really begin to
develop a base of members and supporters.
JJ:
Was it -- one time, I believe, that the Black Panthers and Young Lords were also
marching together with LADO?
OL:
Oh, yeah. I think it was by ’69, I believe. Yeah. We had already been there for
some time. [00:58:00] And that was when -- I don’t know exactly how we -maybe you can help me -- how we got to work together. Well, you were in
Lincoln Park. We were in --
JJ:
Right. I think you started supporting us in Lincoln Park, and we had a coalition,
the Rainbow Coalition with the Black Panthers. So, whoever the Black Panthers
22
�supported, we supported, and whoever we supported the Black Panthers
supported. And so, you asked the Young Lords if they could support the welfare
case workers, so we invited the Panthers. And I believe all three of us were
arrested, myself, you, and Fred Hampton. It happened twice (inaudible) because
the [00:59:00] -- some of the women took over the welfare office, and so we got
arrested at that time. That’s what I remember. But I believe there was even -Chris Cohen was in there. That guy that later on -- I don’t know what his job was,
Chris Cohen.
OL:
Chris Cohen. I remember the name, but I don’t recall exactly. Was he with the
welfare department?
JJ:
I think he was with the welfare department. Later on, he became alderman of the
46th Ward and we ran against him. Now, what about -- do you remember Corky
Gonzales and the “Crusade for Justice?”
OL:
Oh, right. [01:00:00] Well, Corky -- it was had the time when Dr. King was based
here in Chicago. And Corky Gonzales -- let me see. Corky Gonzales, at one
point, came to Chicago, I don’t know if specifically because he wanted to meet
Dr. King or he had something for another event. And then, I took him to meet Dr.
King. But the same happened with Reies López Tijerina. He also came to
Chicago, and also, he wanted to meet with Dr. King. So, I took him to meet Dr.
King. I remember Reies López Tijerina had the issue of the land grants
movement. His movement was based on claims that preceded even Mexico
because they claimed that the lands that were taken from them were granted to
23
�them by the [01:01:00] Spanish crown. And it was on that historical basis that
Reies López Tijerina developed his movement.
JJ:
And his movement did what? What did they do?
OL:
Well, again, they were trying to regain control of the territory that was part of the
initial land grants. They were not successful, of course.
JJ:
But I mean, what kind of things did they try to do?
OL:
What do you mean?
JJ:
I mean, what kind of actions did they do?
OL:
Well, I think mostly it was organizing the people that [01:02:00] could have a
claim to that. In those years at one point, the wife of Reies López Tijerina
burned, as a symbolic act, burned some signs of the -- what is the name of the
forest?
JJ:
Forest Rangers?
OL:
Yeah, Forest Rangers, [I would suppose?]. That got her in trouble, and I think
that she spent some time in jail after.
JJ:
This was Reies López Tijerina’s wife. And did he do anything or spend any time
in jail?
OL:
Tijerina?
JJ:
Yes.
OL:
I mean, he was a leader. The wife is the one [01:03:00] that committed that
action that landed her eventually in jail.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) take over a courthouse or --
24
�OL:
To be truthful, now I remember that incident. But I don’t know if Tijerina himself
was involved. Possibly he was. But what the outcome of that, I do not
remember.
JJ:
Okay. But anyway, you started working together with the Young Lords at that
time, when the Young Lords were beginning, right at the very beginning. I think
there was a thing about Fat Larry or something like that. Do you recall that?
OL:
(laughs) Oh yeah. I remember.
JJ:
What do you remember about that?
OL:
Well, I remember that -- I don’t know if it was directly Fat Larry, the one that told - I think you guys, the [01:04:00] Young Lords words to the effect that that
neighborhood had been Italian. It had been German before and they were going
to make it that again. They were going to get rid of the Puerto Ricans in the
area. And I remember I think one day there was some demonstration that you
had against him and he came out with his weapon.
JJ:
Submachine gun.
OL:
Submachine, right. And I think it was for [Dolores Valera?], the one that took that
-- captured that moment. And that was very --
JJ:
How did she capture it? What did she do?
OL:
I’m sorry?
JJ:
How did she capture it, [01:05:00] the moment? Was it --
OL:
She was with us and she was a photographer.
JJ:
When we confronted Fat Larry?
OL:
Yeah, so she was there.
25
�JJ:
Taking pictures.
OL:
Yeah, she took pictures.
JJ:
And then, we put the pictures in the newspaper? Is that what you’re saying? Is
that what I’m saying (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
OL:
Yeah. I know that picture was very useful. It was used to make -- so that people
could see what it was that you were up against.
JJ:
Because he represented the local real estate office and the local mafia. He was
a local mafia (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
OL:
Yeah, exactly.
JJ:
And actually, the police came in. Didn’t they? At one point, he called the police
(audio cuts out) machine gun, but he’s calling the police. [01:06:00]
OL:
(inaudible) Also, I think he had a phone.
JJ:
That was (inaudible) picture. He had a phone calling the police.
OL:
Right. “Come and save me.” (laughter)
JJ:
Even though he’s got a submachine gun. And so, those were the pictures that
Dolores Valera put --
OL:
And they would use them in the --
JJ:
Where is Dolores now?
OL:
We don’t know. She went to New Mexico, and the last time that -- [Omar?] has
tried to keep in touch with Olga Pedroza who was one of the founders of LADO.
I think at one point he asked her if she new -- she was in touch with Dolores, but I
think she said [01:07:00] she had lost touch with her.
26
�JJ:
But that kind of was one of the pivotal points of the Young Lords in Lincoln Park.
We were working together with the Latin Kings.
OL:
Yeah. And I remember a lot of -- I think the way in which we came to support the
Young Lords was that some of the mothers that were involved with LADO were
from that area. That’s how we kind of --
JJ:
Exactly. The (inaudible) covered that area. Okay, so now, we’re working
together, and then, we go to the youth conference? [Do you remember?]?
OL:
Yes, I think we hired two buses.
JJ:
We had buses full of Young Lords and (inaudible) and we went there. [01:08:00]
OL:
That was quite an event, traveling together.
JJ:
All the way to Denver, Colorado. And this was around ’68, 1968 was the first
year. And then, later on the next year there was another one.
OL:
Yes.
JJ:
Okay. And what do you remember of that day, up in Denver, at that event? What
do you remember?
OL:
Well, actually that it was an exhilarating event because of the fact that we
brought so many people that were activists with us and with the Young Lords. It
was something that had never happened. [01:09:00] And I remember that it was
very good, because for the local people from LADO to be exposed to a national
movement, I think, also opened up their understanding and their perception of
themselves, because I think at that point they were able to see it was not just an
isolated group, but there was a larger movement that they could identify with. I
think that was the --
27
�JJ:
So, it impacted your members?
OL:
Oh, definitely.
JJ:
What did they do after that?
OL:
Well, we kept doing our -- the welfare department had not changed. I think it
renewed determination. I think that’s the one thing about it, that people knew
they were not [01:10:00] crazy. It wasn’t that they were asking for anything that
they were not entitled to receive. So, I think it was a very good influence. It
expanded their world, expanded their consciousness.
JJ:
What other events did the Young Lords and LADO work together?
OL:
Well, I think basically we were kind of a single issue organization. At one point,
we [01:11:00] thought we would get into the things with the stores, with the
national chains. But then, again, we saw that Jesse Jackson was covering that
field, and we didn’t feel that by getting into that issue we wanted to become just
adjunct to the personality of Jesse Jackson. So, we said, “Well, that’s not an
issue where we can create our own --”
JJ:
Now, the Young Lords took over McCormick Seminary, Theological Seminary.
And then, you went to the -- as part of that takeover, [01:12:00] you went to San
Antonio, Texas.
OL:
San Antonio -- the Presbyterian National Convention, right, yes.
JJ:
What happened there? We don’t know what happened there.
OL:
Well, what happened there was that at one point I was able to address the
general assembly.
JJ:
How did you address -- you just --
28
�OL:
Written.
JJ:
I mean, you talked to the people that -- and they gave you permission?
OL:
Oh, yeah, to all the --
JJ:
They had to give you permission because their seminary was taken over.
(laughter)
OL:
Kind of. They could not ignore my presence because I was not there by myself.
I was there as a representation of people that had taken over --
JJ:
A seminary, the administration building.
OL:
That’s right. Yes. The one thing [01:13:00] that we have learned very late
through the meetings that we have been having with clergy is that the takeover
also had quite an impact inside the leadership.
JJ:
Of the clergy?
OL:
Of the clergy, right. I don’t know how --
JJ:
Why do you say that? I mean, why do you say that it had an impact?
OL:
Because they told us. They told us how within -- I think within the faculty of
McCormick -- within the student group, the ones that seemed kind of -effervescence. There was this kind of -- as part of the times, the ’60s, every level
of [01:14:00] our communities -- there were -- well, the spirit of the time, so to
speak, was present there too so that our addressing the national convention also
had within the clergy -- there was also that kind of --
JJ:
And how were you received? Were they quiet? Were they bitter at that time?
Not now, but I mean, at that time.
29
�OL:
At that time? Well, I don’t think they were bitter. It was, again, very unusual
[01:15:00] that a convention of clergymen -- that it would have the presence, the
visit of people representing a community. I think that we had a positive
experience and that they were not -- we never sensed any kind of hostility
because it was not like if we were -- we were a miniscule group. Our presence
was not overpowering. I think the message that we gave, the message that we
conveyed had an impact then and had an impact as they continued their -[01:16:00]
JJ:
What was the message that you conveyed?
OL:
Well, that there was a community that held grievances against the power
structure and that they were part of the power structure. I think that basically
that’s what it was. The way I understand it, they heard it, and it was a new voice.
We were a new voice, and I don’t think they resented us because, again, we
were nobodies. But the fact that we were coming with a message from my
community -- I think that’s what was new.
JJ:
And we had a list of demands. And you were speaking.
OL:
Correct. [01:17:00] And basically, as I recall it, I just made a brief introduction
and then read the demands and that was it.
JJ:
And that was it. No more speaking? I mean, that was it? You just said, “This is
who I am and I’ve been sent here to tell you that these are the demands we
want”?
OL:
Who I was and who I represented and what kind of grievances we had. And
then, I read them.
30
�JJ:
Then you walked off the stage?
OL:
Yeah, basically, yeah. The idea was not to keep hold of the seminario.
JJ:
Were they quiet, or did they just clap or boo?
OL:
No, there were no boos. I think they just listened and listened respectfully
because there was no [01:18:00] sign of hostility.
JJ:
Okay. But then you came back from the conference by Sunday. By Sunday, it
was over. By Sunday night it was over, we negotiated.
OL:
Once we finished our presentation, I think that I didn’t stay much longer maybe.
JJ:
So, were you at the negotiation then with [McKay?] or not at that time?
OL:
I don’t have a recollection of that. But I think the negotiations --
JJ:
They were in his apartment, the night that we negotiated. [01:19:00]
OL:
I might have been in the negotiations, but I don’t have a recollection of that.
JJ:
Okay. So then, what happened after that? Because one of the demands was a
clinic for LADO and a grant for the Young Lords also.
OL:
I think eventually we got a grant.
JJ:
For the Young Lords clinic.
OL:
That got us going for, I suppose at least a year. It was good because we didn’t
have any sources of support. So, that helped us get going until the money ran
out.
JJ:
And basically, what was the clinic? What did you do in your clinic?
OL:
Well, I think basically it was like [01:20:00] -- I remember one of the services that
were very effective for maybe two to three years was the physical examinations
that were required for students to be admitted in school. I know that the kind of --
31
�if they would go to a private doctor, it was -- I don’t remember exactly how much,
but it was quite an expense, especially if you had a family with three, four, five
kids, a lot of them having to have that examination before they could enter into
school. [01:21:00] When we set up ourselves to give the physical examinations,
that was a great economic contribution to the families, because I think that even
the doctors had to lower -- the private doctors -- they had to lower their fees
because we had quite a good number of families that received those services.
Then of course, the ones that would get primary care -- we also were able to
refer. That was the other important thing. Through the doctors that were part of
the faculty of Northwestern, we were able to refer them to specialty services, I
think, when they needed more.
JJ:
At Northwestern?
OL:
At Northwestern, yes.
JJ:
And Northwestern was located where? Do you recall? Oh, that’s [01:22:00]
Northwestern University.
OL:
Here on Chicago and [by the lake?].
JJ:
So, people came to you and they --
OL:
Right. And the ones that needed --
JJ:
Did they pay any money?
OL:
No, no.
JJ:
So, they didn’t pay any money?
OL:
No, they didn’t pay any money.
32
�JJ:
And then, you also referred them to Northwestern, and there they didn’t pay any
money either?
OL:
Most likely not because I think all of them, even at that time, were eligible to get
some form of economic help to cover their services. So, the important thing is
that we -- that through the referral system, we were able to get people to receive
services in that facility.
JJ:
And that happened for a year, at least a year.
OL:
At least three years, I think.
JJ:
So, a lot of people went to the services. [01:23:00]
OL:
Oh yes, uh-huh.
JJ:
So, that was that was a good organizing vehicle, or what -- did look at it like that?
OL:
The interesting thing is we didn’t see it as an organizing vehicle. We saw that
that was a service that we could provide to people that didn’t have it, so we gave
it to them.
JJ:
(inaudible) community. Okay, and then what about after that? How did you feel
about the Young Lords? This is another group.
OL:
Well, we felt, of course, solidarity, a sense of solidarity. I think we admired the
fact that -- I mean, you were very young, and you had, in a sense, a big -- even if
we didn’t quite understand it yet. But when you went up against [01:24:00] the
powerful power structure, local -- when we talk about the Italians and we talk
about the mafia. Hey, they were there. The good thing is that we -- you were not
intimidated. I mean, it didn’t -- the name of the mafia didn’t instill fear in us, in
you. So, that was --
33
�JJ:
So, we were, as a group of people, not just Young Lords, but LADO (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible).
OL:
There were other groups. What was the name?
JJ:
SAC was marching with us also. We were not afraid of the mafia.
OL:
I think ABC came one or two years later, right? [01:25:00]
JJ:
(inaudible)
OL:
That was a time when --
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
OL:
When there was people felt the need to organize, and they organized in different
groups, but they were organized.
JJ:
So, it was a time of people getting in a lot of different groups.
OL:
Right.
JJ:
Some of the groups were more prominent, (inaudible). Okay. Has that
happened? What happened that those groups died out?
OL:
Well, there was a point when we -- I mean, not exactly run out of steam -- but I
think we had a sense that things were closing in on us. [01:26:00]
JJ:
What gave us that sense?
OL:
I don’t know exactly how to say it. But first of all, I knew that we could not keep
the same degree of intensity in organizing. Then also, at one point, we said that
we didn’t really have any powerful people backing us up. And then also, at one
point, I sensed that we had more -- that there were other forces around us that
even we couldn’t quite define them. But we knew that we were not -- it’s not like
everybody agreed with us. I think people that were [01:27:00] part of the
34
�structure -- I think they saw that we were harming them. In my perspective, what
-- the end of that period of organizing was when -- I don’t know if you recall the
takeover of Association House. There were some people that were not part of
our group that presented, I think, a kind of more or less following the method of
taking over. I mean, we took over McCormick Place. (audio cuts out) People
that were not part of our group but that [01:28:00] they also wanted to take over
so they took over Association House.
JJ:
A different group took over Association House?
OL:
Yeah. That’s where people like [Oscar Lopez?] and brother -- that spent so many
years in jail. They were not part of our group, but they saw that there was
nothing competition with us. So, they were not part of the McCormick takeover,
but they are the ones that, at one point, took over Association House. But it was
at the time when already Association House had responded to an earlier demand
about participation of the community in the board of directors. So, by the time
they took over, it was already when we had a good number of people from LADO
in the board of directors so that there was no reason for their demands because
we already had -- [01:29:00] we were the only group that responded to the
request to submit names to be in the board. So, that’s when we got [Mel
Moreno?] and the wife Mrs. Moreno and the daughter. They were on the board
as well as other people. So, that’s more or less what happened.
(break in video)
OL:
You, for your initiative to capture moments in our history that [01:30:00] were and
are important. I think that’s -- it is because of people with the vision that you
35
�have to capture that that we’ll be able to tell the story to other people that maybe
they lived the same period, but they were not involved. This is going to be good
for descendants of the activists, that they see how the generation of the parents
had to fight the good fight. We didn’t have any representatives in local politics,
either at the city or at the county or the state level. Now, there is quite a good
number of people that are of Latin origin, not [01:31:00] that it is helping us much,
their presence there. But at least they are there. But it is due to the efforts of the
generation of the -- I call it generation of the ’66 because the Division Street riots
of June ’66 to me marked the beginning of the political power for our
communities. In fact, the riots are the ones that gave us the power. The riots are
the ones that gave the community the power. It took then some time before
people actually began to take representative positions. But it was because of the
riots that the doors were opened. That’s how I would like to finish [01:32:00] and
again by saying that you are making a great contribution in capturing the
remembrances of people. So, I congratulate you and wish you the best.
(laughs)
JJ:
Thank you.
END OF VIDEO FILE
36
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5154c94d61585d8a5045b2fa73e5ed14.mp4
6034611065d2b1e1b5267a81329c02c1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Obed López-Zacarias vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
Obed López Zacarias es el que fundió el Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), que empezó desde los 1960s hasta los medio 1970s, organizando para una unión de asistente social y por tratamiento digno con los quien reciben ayuda del Estado en la oficina de Wicker Park Welfare en Chicago. LADO también fue instrumental en el desarrollo del Segundo Ruiz Belvis Centro Cultural, que es el Centro Cultural Puertorriqueño más viejo en chicago. Señor López-Zacarias trabajo cerca con los Young Lords, incluyendo el protesto en la oficina de Fat Larry en Armitage y Bissell Street, igual que otros. Para dar un ejemple, Fat Larry’s Bissell Realty era buen conectada con la mafia de Lincoln Park igual que Paddy Bauer, y por lo menos una ocasión Fat Larry directo un pistola al rentero puertorriqueño porque estaba tarde en pagar la renta. Los Young Lords se informaron de la ocasión y marcharon con miembros de LADO a la oficina de Fat Larry. Cuando un representativo entro a su oficina, Fat Larry directo su pistola a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Luego corrió y se encerró en una parte de su oficina hasta que la policía llego. La policía inmediatamente cacheó a Señor Jiménez por armas. Un fotógrafo capturo todo la ocasión y publico muchas de las fotos en el periódico de LADO la próxima semana. 20,000 copias fueron circuladas por los Young Lords en la sección Latina de Lincoln Park. Señor López-Zacarias fue a la conferencia de Presbyterian en Tejas para ser el ministro público para los Young Lords y la Lincoln Park Poor Peoples Coalition, durante la McCormick Seminary ocupación en 1969. Cuando la ocupación termino y las exigencias ganadas, LADO recibió $25,000 para abrir una clínica que es gratis para la comunidad donde muchos de los Latin Kings volantearon. La clínica fue construida en North Ave, cerca de Western en el vecindario de Wicker Park
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres
Pobreza--Illinois--Chicago
Discriminación en la vivienda--Illinois--Chicago
Housing--Illinois--Chicago
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-65_Lopez-Zacarias_Obed
Title
A name given to the resource
Obed López-Zacarias video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
López-Zacarias, Obed
Description
An account of the resource
Obed López-Zacarias is founder of the Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), that organized for a caseworker union and for the dignified treatment of welfare recipients at the Wicker Park Welfare Office of Chicago. LADO was also instrumental in helping to develop the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center, the longest standing Puerto Rican Cultural Center in the city of Chicago. Mr. López-Zacarias worked closely with the Young Lords and became the official envoy to the Presbyterian Conference in Texas by the Young Lords and the Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition. When the occupation was over and all the demands were won, LADO opened a free community clinic located in the Wicker Park neighborhood.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez José , 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs
Poverty--Illinois--Chicago
Discrimination in housing--Illinois--Chicago
Housing--Illinois--Chicago
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-03-02
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6465aa4cb5294f7646827f875ec4e7db.pdf
d432a7e358b4fc96317ac494cd5475a8
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Ada Nivìa López
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 8/24/2012
Biography and Description
Ada Nivìa López was born in Puerto Rico and moved to Chicago with her family in 1956. She describes
life in Lincoln Park in those early days, including her father’s leadership in Latino community and his run
for alderman in the early 1960s. She became active in her community at an early age and describes how,
shortly after starting college, she and a group of students approached the local ASPIRA Association
office, to demand that they become more accountable to the local community. ASPIRA responded by
offering her a job, which she accepted. Ms. López continued her activism throughout her college years,
working closely the Young Lords. She ultimately earned a B.A., cum laude, and a master’s degree from
the University of Illinois at Chicago, specializing in cross-cultural communication and bilingual
education.Ms. López was a founding member and commissioner of the Mayor’s Advisory Commission on
Latino Affairs, which was designed by the Young Lords and created in partnership with Mayor Harold
Washington’s office. The group later became the Chicago Commission on Human Relations. She has
served on the Chicago Board of Education. In 1992, Ms. López became the first Latina to win a statewide
election to the Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois where she was instrumental in positioning
the university to play a prominent role in addressing urban issues. She is currently a liason between the
National Conference on Puerto Rican Women and the National Hispanic Leadership Agenda, promoting
policies on education, health, and employment. She is also a nationally and internationally renown
�specialist on issues pertaining the Latino community and women.Ms. López’s current work, a significant
photography collection and anthology entitled, …y así somos/who we are, focuses on Puerto Rican life
both on and off the island.
�Transcript
MELANIE SHELL-WEISS: Okay. So my name, for the record, is Melanie Shell-Weiss.
And I’m here today talking with Ada López at her office on LaSalle in Chicago,
Illinois. It’s Friday, August 24, 2012. And Ada, for the record, would you mind
spelling your full name?
ADA NIVÍA LÓPEZ: Ada, A-D-A, Nivía, N-I-V-I-A, López, L-O-P-E-Z.
MSW: Terrific. And tell me about where you were born and when, and where you grew
up.
AL:
I was born in Arecibo, Puerto Rico. And do you want me to tell you about that, or
just --
MSW: Please.
AL:
-- talk to you? And I lived with my mother and grandmother in her home as part
[00:01:00] of an extended family. Nearby were a couple of uncles, and it was a
community, on the north shore, you know, by the ocean. My -- during that time,
during the time when I was a young girl, I knew that my father was abroad.
Later, I understood that my father was serving in the US Army during Korea. And
when he went back to Puerto Rico, he found unemployment, like many did. So
he started -- he had been corresponding with a friend that -- a man that he
befriended in the army, an Italian [00:02:00] American. And this Italian American
was encouraging him to come to Chicago. At the same time, the recruitment for
the steel mills was taking place in Puerto Rico. This was early ’50s. And I think - you know, I never spoke to my father specifically about this, but I think what
1
�happened is that he responded to the recruitment effort, and he came, and my
uncle came with him. And it was in 1959. I was about seven, six and a half,
when he sent for my mother and myself. But by that time, he was no longer
living in Indiana and [00:03:00] working in the steel mills. By that time, he had,
through his friend’s help, he had found an apartment in what is Ukrainian Village,
at the border of the Italian neighborhood, and the Ukrainian neighborhood, and
the Polish neighborhood. So that triangle there was still predominantly ethnic
White, what we call now ethnic White.
MSW: And this was in Chicago at this point?
AL:
This was in Chicago in the -- next to Division Street, except Division Street was
the port of entry, and most Puerto Ricans were either coming to Division Street or
that surrounding -- you know, surrounding Division Street, or if they were very
Black, if they were dark, they sometimes were at Cabrini. You know, because
[00:04:00] one of the things I think happened is that because of the different
phenotypes, we had access to different neighborhoods. My mother, being very
fair and European-looking, and the Italian helping my father broker the
apartment, that gave us access to the neighborhood, where otherwise we
wouldn’t have been able to move in. It was common for me to walk to school and
walk in the neighborhood and see the rent signs, for rent signs, in the ethnicities
of language, you know, mostly in Polish or Ukrainian. And that was a signal to us
that we were not welcomed, not to even bother knocking [00:05:00] on the door.
So it was a harsh reality in many ways, because the racism and the rejection of
Puerto Ricans was very overt. You know, that’s not to say that there weren’t
2
�individuals who, as this Italian American, who did welcome people just based on
their goodness, and maybe their past experiences, also, because at that time,
the Italians were not seen as, you know, as the same as other ethnicities that
were blonde or blue-eyed. I mean, that’s the whole history of race in the
[00:06:00] U.S., how groups like Italians and Jews and others were not even
considered Whites until a certain point in history. So that was my experience.
And I came here at a very interesting time, because for one, Puerto Rico was
more Latin American, and I say that in the sense that our culture -- we were
conscious, aware, that our culture was Latin Americanist, that our roots were in
Spain. It was also a time when you did not have access to the technology that
you have today, the world wide web. We did not have the connection with
Hollywood and the [00:07:00] media, the U.S. media, that you have today. Our
Hollywood was Mexico City. And through Mexico City, we would be able to get
the films. We would be able to see films, you know, Jorge Negrete, Pedro
Infante, Libertad Lamarque, the Argentinian. And we saw these musicals of very
Hispanic-looking people, by the way. You know? So the world for us was
Hispanic, right? And culturally, we still dressed like they did in Spain. We still
strolled in the plaza like they did in Spain. And as a family that had access to the
city, [00:08:00] because we weren’t that far, we participated in that world. And I
remember, on one hand, I had the rural experience, because my grandmother
was a widow and had a small farm. My uncle had sugarcane and hired my other
uncles who had nothing. So right there in our family, we had a difference. I have
an aunt who had her own store. My mother was the youngest and the first one
3
�who worked outside the home in the needlework industry, which was award
winning in Puerto Rico, the fine needlework of the women in Puerto Rico at that
time. [00:09:00] So my mother was the one who had the opportunity to work in
the industrialized, more urban industrialized. She was one of the first. So this
was, you know -- so I had no television. I could walk to my uncle’s home, the
one who had the store and the sugarcane, and look at television when it was
available. We listened to the radio, and the family provided its own music and
entertainment, you know, by playing instruments, and singing, and telling stories.
And some of my favorite memories are of me standing [00:10:00] while my
grandmother sat in her rocking chair at the end of a very long day that started at
five o’clock, and I could -- and I remember standing and just looking at her head
of hair, standing behind her, and then just looking at how the moon highlighted
the silver strands of her very gray hair, and the silkiness of that. This might have
been at six, six-thirty, when it’s dusk. And then she would tell me stories. That
was my favorite time of the day. Sometimes she would send me up to the attic.
It was an attic not like American atti-- not like the attics we know that are finished,
but this was a cross-space between the wooden ceiling and the roof, and they
used to hang tobacco. [00:11:00] And she would send me up the ladder to fetch
her a tobacco leaf, so that she could smoke her only rolled cigarette after dinner.
And of course, that was my greatest adventure, because sometimes you had
bats up there, and I had to dodge the bats.
MSW: (laughs) Right.
AL: So, you know, this was life, and this was entertainment. And the extension of the
4
�home, you know, the outdoors was the extension of a home, and it was my
playground. Of course, I had my pets, the hen that was my pet that no one could
eat, and the other hens that I chased for dinner. This was my life. So when my
father sends for us [00:12:00] in -- we -- I started first grade here. My mother had
taught me enough of what she thought would be kindergarten, and then I started
first grade. My first experience with the African American was a negative one,
because it was a little first grader that would bully me. So my aunt had sent me
an umbrella from Puerto Rico, a cute little girl’s umbrella from Puerto Rico,
plastic, transparent plastic. And one day, I came home crying, and my father
said, “You have to learn to stand up and defend yourself. You can’t come home
[00:13:00] and cry like this. You have to learn. You have to remember that your
name is Ana Nivía López. Do not be embarrassed. You have to go out there
and be” -- you know, so he gave me a pep talk like that. So next morning, I beat
her with the umbrella (laughter) when she bullied me. And that was the -- I
skipped a part there, because that was the first time we came. Then we left to
Puerto Rico. When I came back, that’s when I was a little older then, and we
came back to the Ukrainian, Polish, and Italian area.
MSW: Just let me interrupt you for one second just to clarify. So how old were you
when you first came to Chicago? Was that 1959?
AL:
Six and a half.
MSW: And that was about 1959?
AL:
No, that was --
MSW: Or earlier?
5
�AL:
You know, I can’t remember really well. But I remember in -- [00:14:00] I think
what happened is that we moved there first, and then we moved to the area I
was telling you.
MSW: And so where did you first -AL:
So I was still like six, six and a half.
MSW: Ok.
AL: Yeah. And then by the time I -- then when I was a little older, like, I don’t know,
seven or so -- I have to check with my mother, who has a great memory, better
than mine -- then I moved into the Ukrainian Village area. So we went to what is
now Uptown first, Lincoln Park. That’s where Lincoln Park comes in, because
that was Uptown. And my sister was born there. And the neighbors were very
nice people, and they were from Wisconsin. And I remember that I [00:15:00]
didn’t know any English at all, and it was the first time I had seen a television with
English in it, being spoken. And I thought, This is an interesting kind of radio,
you know? Because you see the people, and they’re different. And I remember
the cultural experiences. I remember that the little boy in the front door, the
apartment in front across the hall, was -- a little boy was there, and I was little,
too. And he signaled with his hand, you know? And I went running. And then he
pushed the door in my face. And the reason was because he signaled with his
hand in a way that means “come here” in Spanish and in Puerto Rico, [00:16:00]
but here it means “bye-bye.” So these were my first -- so as a young girl -- I
guess my point is that as a young girl, I arrived at a time when you had no
exposure to English, so English was stranger and foreign as foreign can be to
6
�anyone. And I don’t even think that there’s any place now where you have those
experiences, because in the most remote mountains, somebody will have a TV, a
fax, a computer, and there’s an exposure to the world that did not exist for us at
that time. So I come here, and it’s the first time I hear this foreign language, first
time I see this, and that’s when my cultural -- my training in cross-cultural
communication begins.
MSW: Absolutely.
AL: You know? [00:17:00] And I always felt more comfortable with the Italians, of
course, than with the Polish or Ukrainian. I never understood why until I was
older. But still, we had -- the majority of people in the school were Polish or
Ukrainian, and some Italian, and we had to deal with that environment. There
were only three girls in the school, three Latinas. This was Chopin School, which
must be like a hundred percent Latino now. And there were three Latinas. Two
were the daughters of another veteran that my father had met and had also been
able to move into the neighborhood. And the other was me. And early on, I
remember that [Rosa?] became [Rose?], and she kept insisting that I called her
Rose. And I was experiencing all of this. But then when [00:18:00] I got home,
my father would always help me pronounce my name correctly, and tell me not to
be embarrassed of who I was, and my mother would teach me Spanish, written -and reading in Spanish. I was not allowed to speak English at home. And
without knowing it, they were creating the greatest immersion Spanish-language
program that you can have. But I didn’t understand most of this. I just obeyed,
because it was a time when you just obeyed your parents. Otherwise you felt
7
�that the sky would open and you would be punished directly by God. So you just
obeyed, you know, and you trusted them. You know? You trusted the parents.
And what you didn’t understand, you looked upon with awe, but you didn’t
[00:19:00] go any further. So this was my life. And then at one point, I
remember my -- I hang onto memories, and I realize how important, and this
goes back to what we were talking about, how important the environment is in
the construction of one’s identity. I remember this Polish American teacher
asking me to tell her my full name, how I pronounce it. And I did, you know,
timidly. And she said, “Well, that’s a beautiful name, and it’s so different.” And I
hung on that for the longest time, because usually it was just people struggling to
say my name, you know? But I collected these memories, [00:20:00] and they
end up serving as support, as lifesavers in the ocean as you hang on to these
things. And I remember my experience of just not understanding anything,
moving my head up and down and just going for trial and error. And without
remembering how, I eventually learned English, you know, and the rest is history.
But you know, later, when I was high school age or after high school, I was
already an activist. And I think that came about through the civil rights,
[00:21:00] because my father had -- during that time that he was here, my father
was always looking to organize the community. So he was a respected
community organizer.
MSW: And what was your father’s name?
AL:
Graciano López, Graciano López. Graciano López Agosto, yeah. The mother
from Utuado, and the father from Arecibo. So he had -- as I’m in school and I’m
8
�living this life of struggling to do the cultural brokering and find my way, he’s
participating in the American Legion, the Boricua Post [00:22:00] of the American
Legion.
JOSÉ “CHA-CHA” JIMÉNEZ:
AL:
Expand on that.
And the Boricua post served as a center of the community. It was also a cultural
hub where the families would gather, and besides having the meetings, the
American Legion meetings, they also used it to celebrate the family traditions.
You know? They would do fundraising. They would help each other. People
would walk down the street, and if they spotted someone that looked Puerto
Rican that was freezing, they would make sure that person got a coat. They
would -- got him a pair of shoes, [00:23:00] and they would just serve as a -- they
would welcome and serve as a support group for others. We had -- we
celebrated the birthdays, the Christmas parties. And it was our cultural centers,
you know, in the community.
MSW: Where was it located?
AL:
I don’t remember, but some of them were -- I don’t remember, but as a child, I
remember that there were families around Polk and Western Avenue, and they
were going -- the parish was Precious Blood, and [00:24:00] there was a
community there. But because the leadership lived in different places, also,
although not that far by today’s (laughter) standards, they also reached out
across the communities. My father -- the Caballeros de San Juan had their first
parade -- and this has always been debated, who was really the first, right? So
the Caballeros de San Juan, I think, had their first parade on Madison Avenue,
9
�because that was a community. There was a Puerto Rican community there.
And I remember I even went to Precious Blood at times, although we were from
Holy Family -- [00:25:00] no, not Holy Family. Holy Rosary on Western and
between Grand and Chicago. That was -- and then Saint Mark’s, they had -people were going -- Puerto Ricans were going to Saint Mark’s, but that was a
very harsh experience, because initially, that was Polish and German, and
whatever else, a little Irish. And originally, they were not allowed into the church.
They had to -- they gathered in a tent outside the church. So, you know, it was a
hard time with a lot of overt racism. The people like my father who -- I think
they’re the ones that, kind of, landed on the beach [00:26:00] and took the beach,
make sure that it was safe enough for the other troops to arrive, you know? But
they confronted a lot of overt racism. Paradoxically -JJ:
Talk about your father. Talk about him.
AL:
So my father was -- had a lot of leadership qualities, and my father was one of
the ones that had the most formal education. Not that he was the smartest, you
know, I’m, sure, but (laughs) that he had the most formal education. So people
looked to him a lot to serve as a bridge between the community and what we
would call today the grassroots, and the [00:27:00] city officials and other
institutions. And they respected him a great deal. He also had friends who then
went on to Waukegan, but still, they continued their relationship. And when the
Caballeros de San Juan joined my father’s group, and they got together to
continue with this Puerto Rican parade – and now I’m in the early ’60s, right?
The people of Waukegan, like Sebastian Rivera, would come to Chicago and
10
�have meetings. [Edwin Montalvo?] would come to Chicago and have meetings,
and together, they would work [00:28:00] on the Puerto Rican parade and also
on developing their organization, Puerto Rican Association or something, in
Waukegan. So, you know, when my father was in the hospital dying of -- you
know, I asked him -- oh, he said, “You know, what I can’t understand is why, now
that there are so many educated Puerto Ricans and people that are active,
Puerto Ricans, and there are so many resources, it seems so much more difficult
to organize,” he said. And all I could say was, you know, I said, “You know, I
think it’s because [00:29:00] you had your own communities, and the dynamics
was as it is for any –- you know, as human, right? You have your own families,
your own community, your own ways of doing things.” But I said, “But it’s like a
house with walls. And during your time, the walls were low, and you could still
look across the way. The fences were low. And now they are of a greater
magnitude.” And I think -- that was an interesting observation for me, because I
thought it was so wise, and it was right on target, you know? And it caused me
reflection. But they did a great deal. They created about -- I think I counted, on
my father’s resumé, about, I don’t know, 15 or 20 [00:30:00] organizations,
Puerto Rican organizations, because the reality was so harsh that it -- I think it
was clear that if you didn’t organize and take care of others who were less
fortunate or were having a harder time, there was no other institutions. You
didn’t have the infrastructure. There were no institutions that would do it for you,
so you had to take it upon yourself. And in the early days, the Catholic Church
was very difficult to work with, but a lot of these people were people of a great
11
�faith who brought their Catholicism from the mountains of Puerto Rico. And they
were people of great faith, [00:31:00] great strength, and I admire them, because
they really made an impact and transformed those churches and made them
more welcoming for everyone. And if you hear about Saint Mark’s story of how
they started in the ’50s in outdoor tents because they weren’t welcomed, and
how then through their efforts, they opened the door for themselves, and they
transformed the culture of the church, and the church became richer and
recognized it. Then later, Saint Mark’s was known for the cathedral [00:32:00] of
the Puerto Rican people in Chicago, and that was where you knew you had to go
to get baptized. You knew you -- everyone would come from all over to Saint
Mark’s, and they called it the cathedral of the Puerto Rican community. And it’s
to the credit of the people who came who were -- who came not because they
rejected their culture, not because they rejected who they were -- not all of them.
I’m sure there were some, right? But the leadership did not reject the culture.
The leadership came because it was clear to them that they had to find economic
opportunities. They had to find jobs. But that was their motive. It’s not that they
were trying to discard their heritage or their culture. So this combination, then,
[00:33:00] you know, gave them a great deal of resolve to not only find their way,
but also not discard their culture and insist on being represented in other
people’s agenda. You know? Not because they were assimilating passively, but
because they also felt pride. So then now you -- well, from Saint Mark’s
Cathedral, which it was called, to masses in Spanish, to then deacons, Puerto
Rican deacons that came out of Saint Mark’s. So that’s just one example. If you
12
�use one institution, that’s one example. Now, the Puerto Rican parade in the
’60s, when my father was organizing it, going back to that, [00:34:00] you see the
same kind of parallel, you know, in that institution, where my father and others
see that there are parades, ethnic parades and others. And then they form a
delegation. You know, they were not aldermen officially, but they form a
delegation. They figure out how to organize the community and how to enlist the
support of city hall and the other officials in organizing a parade that would
highlight the pride and the -- what they considered the best of the Puerto Rican
culture. And my father then became the first president of that parade. You
know, people always say he was [00:35:00] the founder and first president of the
first parade, but if you say it’s the first parade, then you find people that will say,
“Well, no, there was one on Madison Avenue.” So you know. But I think that he
represented an interesting juncture where you see the transformation of what
was more spontaneous of a parade to a parade that bases -- that roots itself or
bases or finds itself connected to the formal social political agencies and
structure.
MSW: The infrastructure.
AL:
The infrastructure. So they connect themselves that way. [00:36:00] That’s how
I see that juncture. And there, too, you see how, again, it’s to be involved. Like
my father used to say, to show our pride, the best of our culture, and be involved
in the civic, social, and political life of the city. And that was the goal. But never
denying one’s roots. You know? And then in 1975, he ran for -- he decided to
run for office as alderman. What [00:37:00] I think -- well, after that, there were
13
�the Puerto Rican riots in 1966, and my father was -- I think my father was
president of the parade. I’m not too sure. But if he wasn’t president, he was
surely still the main player, one of the main players. During that time, I was going
back to school to college. And I didn’t live near Division Street.
MSW: And where did you go to college?
AL:
I started at University of Illinois at Chicago. And I remember I used to listen to
the radio. And that evening [00:38:00] of the riots, I heard Elias Diaz y Perez -Elias? Yeah -- switch his program and start reporting spontaneously from -about the riots and all that. So I called my father. I called my father and said,
“You know, there’s something happening,” and he went out there. Now, I didn’t
go. I wasn’t out there. But he went out there. And then out of that came a
different type of effort to -- that was intensified. I think that their awareness of
and their desire to serve the community through social and civic activities, that
meant doing dancing, and fundraising, and helping the church, and helping
[00:39:00] through the American Legion, these efforts, again, moved to a
different level. Now it moved to -- and the frustrations came to a head. And they
knew they had to then work with the city in a different way. When I was -- you
know, and I say this because if you look at it, it’s -- I don’t think it’s just my story,
’cause I talk to people my age, and a lot of ’em say, “Oh, yeah, my parents didn’t
let me speak English in the house either, you know? And they kept their
language, too, you know?” And I think it’s really -- if you see it, it’s a parallel, I
mean, [00:40:00] between our individual experiences and what’s happening in
the communities and in the city, and in the world. There’s an interesting parallel
14
�that one doesn’t really see. At the same time you’re living it, you don’t really
understand it, but you look back and you say, “Oh, no wonder.” You know? And
this is all interesting for me, because it’s -- when I was starting to study, I got a
job -- this is in the ’70s, you know, ’70, ’71. I got a job at ASPIRA, and a parttime job as a club organizer. The way I got that job as a club organizer is that
[00:41:00] we went to confront the ASPIRA office that was at Ogden and Chicago
Avenue. And we went to confront them and ask them, what did they have in
mind in terms of meeting the needs of the students, of the college students, you
know?
MSW: Now when you say we, who is we?
AL:
Well, it was a group of -- it was all part of what we were doing, I think. It was part
of the -- you know, ’cause my generation -- see, now, I was talking to you about
my father. But at that point, we’re -- well, let me finish with my father. So my
father then -- [00:42:00] after the Puerto Rican parade, my father ran for
alderman in 1975, right? Okay. So that -- before that, we were aware of the civil
rights movement, the Vietnam War, the women’s movement, and then, of course,
in Lincoln Park -- we had friends in Lincoln Park, and we knew that the Young
Lords were in Lincoln Park, and that that was an effort for some of the same kind
of social justice, to realize this idea of social justice that, for many of us, had
started when we first came here and experienced the difficulties [00:43:00] with
the language, the poverty, the -- and the struggle to make our way and to realize
those ideas of having a job and providing for the family. And not all of it was as it
was painted, because of course, in the recruitment of -- to the steelworkers and
15
�others, it was all painted very -- it was all made to -- the people were told that
they would come and find all that infrastructure and all those jobs, and the good
paying jobs, and all of that. And they found a very harsh reality. But anyway, so
our generation, the first [00:44:00] generation here, sons and daughters of
immigrants, we have this experience that shapes our worldview and our sense of
what is right. And even today, there are people who may not even know
Spanish, but if you talk to them, you know that they have that sense of pride, you
know? And I say it’s because, you know, they came, but they didn’t come
because they were -- they came to find a living, but they were not -- they didn’t
buy into denying who they were. You know? Not all of them, of course. I’m just
talking from my experience and the people I know.
MSW: Sure. (laughter)
AL:
[00:45:00] This is really nonscientific.
MSW: But can I ask you this for a minute? At what point did you realize -AL:
Jump in and ask me questions, ’cause I’m just --
MSW: No, this is wonderful.
AL:
–- I’m reminiscing. (laughs) (inaudible)
MSW: This is exactly what I want you to do. At what point did you realize that what your
father was doing and what you were experiencing in your household, your
worldview, was part of this larger generation? At what point for you did you make
that connection and realize this was part of something that was not individual?
Was there a moment or a series of moments that you can think of?
AL:
You know, I think that in those ’60s, I think it was a combination of -- you know,
16
�during this period leading up to the riots, but because of -- [00:46:00] and the civil
rights movement, because the civil rights movement, you know -- I think for a lot
of Latinos, the civil rights movement threw us into -- forced us to -- called us to
reflect on our own reality as Puerto Ricans, and then -- and you start trying to
understand the civil rights movement, which was on television, at the same time
that we are, in our communities, also struggling for these kind of human rights.
[00:47:00] But we begin tying it to a homeland, you know, Puerto Rico. And
that’s where this idea of self-determination not only applies to the here and now,
you know, and the communities, what Stokely Carmichael called the internal
colonies of the U.S., and the activity in the Lincoln Park area, but also, it also
throws in another dimension, which is the race question. You know? And it gets
us to become more aware of that bigger picture. But of course, you know, all we
have to do is then reflect. All I have to do is then remember [00:48:00] how
difficult it was for my parents, for my mother. My mother got sick and invited a
Puerto Rican friend to babysit us while she was in the hospital for two days. And
the landlady chewed her out, because she was allowing Blacks to come into the
apartment. We all looked at each other, and we said, “Blacks?” We didn’t know
what she was talking about. And then I, as a young girl, I realized that she was
talking about [Leti?], my mother’s friend. And we thought Leti was Puerto Rican,
but now I learned that she’s Black. So we start -- this country has made our
[00:49:00] consciousness of color more of a -MSW: A dichotomy, yeah.
AL:
-- dichotomy, Black and White. Whereas -- you know, I tell people it’s like falling
17
�in love with someone that’s ugly, you know? People see that they’re ugly, but
you don’t. You know? And, it’s like, you’re blind. You’re blind, in that sense,
because other attributes of the person is what you perceive first. But anyway.
So, you know, the civil rights reminded me then of those experiences, too, you
know? And made us more aware of the bigger picture in the United States, and
the war in Vietnam, and how the Puerto Rican men were being drafted tied us to
the war in [00:50:00] Vietnam, how people who had no idea of English, didn’t
know any English, they were drafted, and there they were, you know, trying to
understand English through those walkie-talkies. (laughter) So that tells you a
little bit about me. I continued working at ASPIRA and studying.
MSW: So I want to make you back up a little bit, though. So going back to how you got
the job at ASPIRA. So you and others marched down to the offices.
AL:
Yeah, and said, “Here we are.”
MSW: And these were classmates or other friends from the neighborhood?
AL:
No, these were students. At the time, we started at Loop Junior College, which is
now Harold Washington Community College. [00:51:00] And while we were
there, we organized a group called HOLAS, I believe it was, HOLA or something.
JJ:
Yeah, HOLAS.
AL:
HOLAS. And that group is the one that continued participating in the community
and with community groups that were organizing, you know, like Young Lords,
because at that time, you have to -- you know, you have to remember how the
’60s were. I mean, they were really quite different than now. And we saw -- we
were the first generation that went into these -- that had this consciousness and
18
�went into the universities. And as our parents had gone -- just like our parents,
we were breaking new ground in these universities, because it was really the civil
rights [00:52:00] movement and all that effort, all those who participated in civil
rights, and all the different groups that participated in human rights, civil rights,
those were the ones that got the policies in place that then were transformed into
programs. You know? Affirmative action programs. And the affirmative action
programs opened the door, and there were monies allocated. So I was studying,
and I wanted to be a lawyer, because my father wanted to be a lawyer, and I
thought that -- and at home, they always said that I argued a lot and that I should
be a lawyer. So I was convinced, you know, and I wanted to be a lawyer. And
[00:53:00] I took a -- as a young student -- I mean, it’s amazing how young I was,
right? As a young person -- I must have been in my early 20s, mid 20s -- I took a
job translating for a lawyer at Cook County Jail, ’cause I wanted to get my first
insights, right? And I saw so much brokering and so many 20-dollar bills being
switched from one pocket to the other that I thought, This is not about justice, you
know, social justice. This is not what I thought it would be, and I’m not sure I
want to do this. You know? And not having any counterargument, you know, not
having any -- like what we call today role models or lawyers that could give me a
different perspective, I stayed with my doubt. And then when I was -- when we
confronted [00:54:00] ASPIRA, that’s when my life started to change career-wise,
because we were at the meeting with ASPIRA, and Sylvia Herrera [de] Fox was
the first director. They hardly even had furniture yet. They had just opened the
office. But we had heard about this new office that was opening, and that they
19
�were going to work with students. And we said, “Well, wait a minute. Here we
are, and no one has contacted us. What kind of work are they prepared to do? It
must not be so smart if they have not even (laughter) called us!” You know?
’Cause I don’t think we were even sophomores, so, you know, this is how you
think when you’re a student, and it’s the ’60s, and you’re, you know, standing
ready to change the world. [00:55:00] So we went, and she was very gracious
and sat back with a big smile, and asked what she could do. And we started
giving her our presentation. And she listened to all of us. And then she said,
“Well, you know, what you describe as a program is exactly what our mission is.”
And then she was very clever, because she offered me -- she offered us jobs.
And she said, “And you’re welcome to work with us.” You know? And, you
know, and just –- I guess not clever. Clever’s not the right word. Seriously, she
was very sensitive to us, and of course, she understood her mission [00:56:00]
as it came from our voice. You know? Which was the way it should have been.
It was perfect. And again, it’s one of those times when you have people -- this
time it was from New York -- and you had us in the schools, in the colleges, and
then the Young Lords were still in the neighborhood, and we were all finding a
new vehicle, a place to shape the same type of work. And I continued studying,
and I took a job part time. And then one day -- as I worked part time, I was able
to use my own experience with the -- [00:57:00] you know, I used the sensitivity
that I had developed as a person not knowing the language, as a person here,
and all the community activities, I was able to use that organizing the ASPIRA
clubs. My favorite was Saint Michael’s, because they were an all-boys school,
20
�and they were always ready to, you know, start up a revolution against the nuns,
(laughter) who they found were very oppressive and insulted them by saying
things like maintaining that Puerto Rico did not speak standard Spanish, that we
were a dialect. You know? Because these are the things that people thought. I
mean, and it’s amazing. It wasn’t that long ago, and when you read those texts,
it’s amazing what people were learning [00:58:00] in the universities. So one
day, when I was working, Sylvia Herrera Fox sat me down, asked me to come
into the office and said, “You know, I’ve been working with UIC, the federal
government, and one of the nuns,” from the same school (laughs) or some
person that she -- a friend. They had written a proposal to prepare a group of
teachers. This group of teachers were to be the first teachers prepared in
bilingual, bicultural education. And she said, “They’re going to give a merit
scholarship, and this merit scholarship will also provide for a stipend [00:59:00] to
live, and it’s a great opportunity.” And I said, “Yes, except I don’t want to be a
teacher.” But she persuaded me, because she said, “Ada, as a teacher, you can
influence and you can teach the people that you have been supporting and the
students. You go in as a club organizer, but imagine what you can do as a
teacher.” And I said, “I’ll think about it,” you know? And what really sold me, to
tell you the truth, is that then she said, “And besides, Ada, you’re young. If you
don’t like it, you could always come back, and you can be a lawyer.” And I said,
“Okay, that” -- so I took back the two ideas, right? The difference I could make
as a teacher with my sensitivity [01:00:00] and all my -- and my experience that I
was bringing to the table, and this idea that, hey, I can discard it and do what I
21
�wanted to do, which was be a lawyer. Okay. So I thought about it, and I read up
on it. And I thought -- and then one evening, I thought, My God, I’m interested in
Puerto Rico and self-determination for Puerto Rico. I remember my father’s
lessons well, even if he, in his later days, may have forgotten them a little bit and
became more a part of -- (laughs) you know, and thought I was too radical. But I
remember them, and my mother’s lessons well, too, and I could do that for
others. And then I read some more, and I said, “Ah! I could help. [01:01:00] I
could help the students to guard themselves against this cultural assimilation and
domination (laughter) that is happening in the schools.” So I got this big idea,
you know? And that really motivated me, because I said, “The decolonization of
the mind,” I thought, (laughter) and granted, I had not even studied pedagogical
anything or educational philosophy, but I thought of -- you know, I guess because
I had teachers. You know, my parents, my extended family were my -- as, you
know -- I mean, it sounds like a cliché, but it is true. They were my first teachers.
And [01:02:00] they were the ones who provide that environment at home. No
English. Learn the Spanish, and my mother teaching me. The trips to Puerto
Rico all the time, the ties with the family. And of course, when I got to Puerto
Rico, my aunts were so proud of me. You know, they would show me off. Like,
“Look how she speaks Spanish,” you know? Not like others who come and are
ashamed. You know? So I was encouraged a great deal, and this is what I
wanted to give to my students. You know? And if they didn’t want to follow my
path or feel the same way I did, because for whatever reason, I still wanted them
to have an appreciation, and I wanted them to do it consciously, not just to forget
22
�of their cultural value, what is [01:03:00] of value, just because they were under
pressure. You know? So I wanted them to have a teacher that would pronounce
their name correctly and say, “That’s a beautiful name.” You know? Because
that was an accident, but what a nice -- because she was, I think, Polish
American, but she had the sensitivity to say that to me, that teacher when I was
in, like, seventh grade. And she had the sensitivity to say that to me. And a lot
of good teachers. There was no Latino anything at the time, but there were good
people, and if they happened to say the right thing at the right moment, it would
take you a long way. You know, great music teachers. I remember one teacher
that really kept my idea of -- my passion for [01:04:00] social justice and doing -and she was Italian American. You know? And she was in love with Italy and
her cultural roots, and would teach us Italian and Italian songs. And she would
talk about her pride and about her -- but it was interesting, because what I
understood from her -- I mean, was that what I felt was also valid, because that’s
how I felt about Puerto Rico. So, you know, this thing is transferrable. This love
of home and all that, these values are transferrable. So this was encouraging.
And I did well. I did well in school. But I always knew that doing well did not
mean that I could -- [01:05:00] that I needed to discard, you know, what my
family valued and what I considered beautiful of my homeland and of my history.
So that’s -- and I became a bilingual teacher, bicultural teacher. It was one of the
most -- and I think -- and between all this time, though, I’m participating in the
neighborhood with the Young Lords, and not -- but because I’m so busy, you
know, I wasn’t -- I didn’t dedicate a lot of time, but I would be supportive. I would
23
�be supportive in different ways. And at the time, it was -MSW: Can I ask how you would provide support?
AL:
Yeah. It’s -- well, Cha-Cha would -- we would -- [01:06:00] I would rely on ChaCha to pull me into certain activities. And he would draw me into activities that
had to do with children and with food, and culture things of that nature. And I
remember the meetings we had, and participating in the meetings. But as I said,
I wasn’t in charge of any one program or committee, because I was studying, and
I --
MSW: I’m sure doing student teaching at some point too.
AL:
And I had -- yeah, and my daughter, Deborah, was small. And I was managing
all that.
MSW: That’s a lot.
AL:
And I was organizing on campus too. So -- but at that time, during this period,
[01:07:00] all over the world, you saw that the students on campus would spill
over into the neighborhood, because we did not see ourselves disconnected from
the community. We were aware from the get-go that the reason we had been
able to enter the university, being -- well, anyway, that we were able to enter
because of the movements that had taken place. So when we go into the
university, we go with a social consciousness, and a sense of fairness, and a
commitment to give back that was not there with -- let’s say your foreign students
who came from Latin America, or [01:08:00] Puerto Rican upper middle class, or
other Latinos in the US who had been totally assimilated into the American way
of thinking, and that they had bought into being White Anglo-Saxon Protestant,
24
�and took pride in not remembering how to speak Spanish, and took pride in not
remembering where their parents were from. And of course, there were people
who encouraged that, because it was their way of survival. And, you know, all
over the world immigrants take two routes, you know? Either one where they
want to keep some of their ties to the homeland -- hopefully now with
globalization, there will be more -- [01:09:00] and others who want to just
assimilate and forget. And sometimes they leave realities that are so harsh that
that’s the only way they could survive. But anyway, so I became a teacher. So
I’ve always had this parallel, three-tier life: my personal growth, the professional
and the community. And I’ve always worked them together, parallel. So it’s very
difficult for me to talk, because I’ve always done the three. Like, you know,
three-layer chess games, you know, like three chess games at the same time.
So it’s been very rich. [01:10:00] So I become a teacher. It was the most
controversial thing at the time, because bilingual education was seen as unAmerican by the mainstream. It was seen as a way of -- people said it would
balkanize the communities. And it went against the heart of the American
individualism. It also went against, unknowingly, it went against what the African
American community was doing, because they wanted to -- it was Brown v. the
Board of Ed. And they were looking to integrate, and we were talking about
creating classrooms [01:11:00] where our children could speak Spanish together,
so they sometimes saw it as segregation, because they were going into the other
spot, you know. It’s like when people think we should be a state, because they
think that’s the maximum, most ultimate, wonderful thing you could do for a
25
�country, and we say, “Well, wait a minute. There’s more.” You know? “There’s
more. Stop, there’s more.” And this is the same thing. They saw it as, if we can
assimilate and get into these schools. And of course, that was part of the history,
and that’s what they felt was needed. And I admire their struggle. But we were
looking for our own answers. Again, that idea of succeeding, but not forgetting
the language and knowing our history, and all that. So that was very
controversial. So I became an activist, you know, for [01:12:00] bilingual
education, and on my own time, after teaching.
MSW: And where did you teach, if I could press you on some of those details?
AL:
In Humboldt Park, in the Humboldt Park area.
MSW: What was your first school?
AL:
I organized my first school.
MSW: Yeah?
AL:
Yeah. It was Lakeview Community School, because it was a storefront we found
in Lakeview. And again, these were ideas that were prevalent in the ’60s, to
organize your own school, and that again, the Young Lords, in one way or
another, supported, because it was about self-determination. It was teaching
one’s self to counteract the negative, the -- [01:13:00] to resist being defined, you
know, by a culture that was antagonistic to all that was home to us. It was, you
know, a struggle for maintaining our self-esteem and for being part of
constructing our own identity, and not just being labeled and categorized and put
on a shelf, in a book by someone else that is antagonistic. These were the days
when scientists were studying how we were incapable of abstract thinking. What
26
�was that guy in California? Jensen, I think, was his name, who became a failure
later on [01:14:00] in life. And the guy who he sued, the Black person who he
sued, became an extraordinary doctor. And then this was -- and check all this
when I say, because I don’t remember very well the names. But it was also a
time when I sat in the classroom, in the university, and we were -- and we studied
these culturally deprived groups of people.
MSW: So even as you’re studying to be a bilingual, bicultural educator, you’re being
taught something that would really run against this. (laughs)
AL:
I’m learning to become this bilingual, bicultural educator, because the federal
government is responding to the social forces. [01:15:00] And ASPIRA has this
vision and grabs on to this money, and then this is housed at a university, who
wants the grant. And we’re housed there, right? And then they brought an
anthropologist from Mexico, a mathematician from Canada, a historian from
Puerto Rico, an American Indian from the Southwest, a Black woman from the
South Side of Chicago, and they formed an interdisciplinary cohort group of
professors to teach us. Right? Because no one knew what this was about. The
world knew about bilingual education, but the U.S. did not know that much about
bilingual education. And this [01:16:00] was going to be a model. So I really
loved the way I studied with all these incredible scholars and people who had a
really wonderful worldview, open mind. And what was your question? You
asked if I had --
MSW: My question was about -- exactly that.
AL:
Oh, yeah. I was talking about this, how hurtful that was, how hurtful that was. So
27
�here I am with only one other Latina in a classroom of 150 or so, and we’re sitting
there feeling odd, as if all eyes are on us. My friend from Texas, Maria Mangual,
who went on to found and lead the Mujeres Latinas en Accion, she was the only
[01:17:00] other Latina. And we both had dark hair, but she was more than look-she was darker, you know, and had a black head of hair. And I could just pick
her from far, and I knew it was -- and then I looked at her, and we became
friends, you know, like two children in school looking for each other, because
there was nothing. And there were walls around the university, you know, brick,
keeping everyone -- the city out. The university was an enclave, mostly of
downstate Republicans. But it was a great -- it’s always been a great university.
But anyway, so then this becomes part of -- so again, there’s a duality. There’s a
dual consciousness that is always there. There’s a duality. You know you have
to [01:18:00] work hard and succeed in this environment, which constitutes your
concrete reality and all that. But then at the same time, you know you have to sift
through what is being taught, because what’s coming out of the books and out of
-- is not your -- does not represent your reality. You know? It’s something that is
being done by others from the outside. And I worked as a teacher for many
years. I was part of the union. I was active in the teachers’ union, so I was prolabor. And then I became a bilingual coordinator, you know, went up -- I studied
epistemology, because I was rejecting the idea that our [01:19:00] students could
not learn, and so I wanted to understand how man learns, you know, and I
wanted -- I was always interested in the big questions. Why do people drop out
of school? You know, all that stuff. So I enjoyed my teaching years a great deal.
28
�I really enjoyed it. Many times, many times I thought how lucky I was that I did
not go back to ASPIRA and ask for help to become a lawyer, because I was
really happy with teaching, and I recommend it now to everyone. It’s the only
place you can close the door. You close the door, and you’re the CEO instantly,
you know?
MSW: (laughs) That’s true.
AL:
So -- my work, my professional work as an educator, has been very rich, and not
because the opportunities were there all the time, but because [01:20:00] I made
them. And as a professional, I gave up salary, and I gave up opportunities that
would lead to more salary, because I had to feel that I had the balance of -- that I
had to have the space for being creative and interjecting some of my thinking and
my worldview, and making a difference. So my work has been creative and
avant-garde, and I’ve really enjoyed it. Now, in 19--
MSW: Just to ask you for a second real quickly now. Your work has not only been
creative and avant-garde, but you’ve been a renowned leader in the field of
education in so many ways, as well, right, including serving on the school board?
AL:
[01:21:00] Well, yeah. Now we’re getting closer.
MSW: And other positions, so...
AL:
We’re getting closer to Cha-Cha. You have to bear with me, but I did --
MSW: Not at all. This is perfect.
AL:
-- (laughs) I did -- and then --
MSW: No, this is exactly right. This is about you.
JJ:
[You’re doing well. This is?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
29
�AL:
Yeah, and then please edit --
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
AL:
-- almost everything except the good stuff. (laughs)
JJ:
(Spanish).
MSW: But this is about you. This is exactly what -JJ:
Yeah, [this is what we want?].
AL:
So this -- so then I -- in 19-- let’s see. In the 1980s, early ’80s, then there’s -- we
hear of this man who -- a Black man who, the rumor is, is interested or could be
mayor. And I knew a little bit through my [01:22:00] work in bilingual education,
through my civil rights work in the community, with the Black community a little
bit, through the -- well, following the women’s issues and the union and all that, I
knew that this congressman was -- had supported the same causes. You know?
So I thought that was a really good, interesting proposition. I was very skeptical.
I really didn’t -- at that time, I really didn’t see that it would happen. But it didn’t
matter, because I never participated in electoral politics. You know, we often -we saw. We saw what happened in the electoral politics, the gerrymandering,
the exclu-- you know, [01:23:00] the manipulation of the ballot boxes, and we
didn’t -- and it wasn’t -- it wasn’t something that we saw -- I mean, that I saw as -electoral politics at that time didn’t seem to be a vehicle for making a difference.
You know? I mean, this was civil rights. Right? Blacks weren’t voting, and
Puerto Ricans were voting sometimes. So I wasn’t that keen on electoral politics.
But when this man -- when the talk started, then I thought, Well, I don’t know. It
doesn’t seem -- it’s a long shot, but on the other hand, it’s still an interesting
30
�[01:24:00] thing to do, because it’s an exercise in democracy, you know, in trying
to expose. I thought it would be interesting. And then one evening, one night -then I started hearing that Cha-Cha Jiménez, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, was
back and was looking to become alderman, and that he also was involved with
Harold Washington. And then Reverendo Morales at San Lucas. And it started
to -- the groundswell began. And to make [01:25:00] these stories shorter, I -MSW: You don’t need to.
AL:
No? (laughs) Okay.
MSW: No.
AL:
I went to -- one evening, I was called to a meeting. And I don’t know if you called
directly or I got word. I don’t remember that exactly, but I know it was the
evening. And I went to a meeting that Cha-Cha had convened. You know,
typically -- I mean, in his typical style, I don’t remember him saying much, but he
had, like, a big idea. He had a big idea. And you knew he had a big idea. And
you knew that he was gonna say something simple, but it was a big idea, and it
was profound, and it was well thought through [01:26:00] someplace in his mind,
’cause we -- and you kinda trusted that, you know? You trusted that, because he
wasn’t one to waste your time. That’s my experiences. So I remember him
saying, “Ada, there’s talk about a commission. I’m participating in talks. And
there’s a commission that may be formed to work with Harold Washington. And I
thought of you to represent us. You have the background. You know how to
work at that level. And I think [01:27:00] it would be really good,” or something
like that, and just kinda wrapped it up like that. So I said, “Okay.” And I started.
31
�You know, and I started. I attended meetings on Pilsen, Little Village, on 18th
Street. And this was different community leaders. Rudy Lozano was one of the
leaders within that group. And we started developing the idea of a commission,
how the commission would -- how we would represent the different issues; at the
same time, represent the different ethnicities within the Latino community,
[01:28:00] and the different areas of the city. And we wanted the people at the
table to have that capacity to be polyfaceted, multifaceted, and to be able to do
this in the different layers. So of course, I was representing Puerto Ricans. I
was representing the area, the general area of the Northwest, you know, Lincoln
Park, as much as we could, and education, and woman, gender. So, you know,
we tried to get people that could do all of those, who had all those voices. And
we -- and it was [01:29:00] difficult, because at the same time, there were Latinos
who had already gotten in on board with the -- because I think -- well, Harold had
been elected. I know you were active in mobilizing in your area, and he was
elected in ’83. And then we were working the idea of the commission. But there
were other Hispanics that were -- other forces that were already trying to work as
brokering, as bridging, Latinos like us with the mayor. And of course, we rejected
that type of process, because [01:30:00] we wanted to have a meeting with
Harold himself, because we felt we were empowering -- you know, we were
offering him something very unique and extremely powerful at a time when we
only had one alderman, Miguel Santiago, and that alderman had become
alderman through a different historical process that did not include the
empowerment of the Latino community. So we wanted to get Harold to meet
32
�with us. And we developed an idea for a commission, which was and still is very
unique, because our idea was to democratize [01:31:00] policymaking. And the
way we envisioned ourselves democratizing policymaking was to have town hall
meetings in the different communities with a facilitator. That input from the
different grassroots and also what they call grasstops, you know, leaders, the
more professional agency types -- we would take their input, their voice, give it to
another person, and that person would translate it into policy recommendations
for the mayor. And the mayor [01:32:00] then would have his commissioners
meet with committees that came out of those town hall meetings. We would form
committees right there, and then those commissioners would meet with those
committees and our facilitator. So we were not only gathering the input of the
community leadership, translating -- formulating the policy recommendations,
giving it to the mayor, but then the facilitator would meet with the community
group and go before the commissioners to have a say on the execution. Okay?
So if you look [01:33:00] at all the mayoral commissions in the country at that
time, there’s nothing like it.
MSW: No, that’s right. This is really [unique?].
AL:
And there’s still nothing like it, I don’t think. And it was just pure genius that
came out of this group. And then what happened is that that commission then
created opportunities for others to see themselves working in city government.
So some of the commissioners, like Jesús Garcia, the former senator who is now
Cook County commissioner, he became commissioner of the water department.
And [01:34:00] Miguel del Valle became a senator. Now, a lot of this was done
33
�by the guys. The women did not participate as fully as they did. You know? So
when they were talking about Miguel del Valle being senator, that was done in
the meetings, and then we would hear about it, but we were not, like, there all the
time, you know? But anyway, that’s the gender question.
MSW: Why was that? Why the difference in what men and women were doing?
AL:
Well, that’s just your typical gender, you know, phenomena. There’s -- [01:35:00]
you know, it’s the cultural spillover, if I can just sum it up that way. It’s the
cultural spillover. I think that if you look at the times, if you look at it in terms of
the times, some of us had more participation than our mothers did. Our mothers
cooked for the activities, and they did a lot of things that were tied to their role in
the home. You know, and others were more entrepreneurial and had sales
ability, so they would sell things, too, to fundraise. You know, the women also
had a lot of talent, and it was diverse, but in terms [01:36:00] of the hardcore
strategies, I think we had less participation than men, but more than our mothers,
I’d say. But I say that because, you know, if you ask me more than what I’ve told
you, I won’t know. That’s why I said that. (laughter)
MSW: So it’s a disclaimer, is that the -AL:
Yeah, that’s why I said that, ’cause I kinda wanted to tell you more of how that
happened, but no, I can’t. I wasn’t there. But it was a very exciting time. We not
only -- our commission -- oh. So the way this commission was established was
that one evening, we called the mayor and said, “We’re ready with our plan,” and
he said, “Well, we’re going to send So-and-so over.” And we said, “Oh, no, we
need to meet with you.” And he says, “Well, let me see.” And then other people
34
�became involved and started [01:37:00] trying to persuade us differently. And
they came to Pilsen, where we used to meet, and it was a long, long meeting.
We were there under some kind of rainstorm. There used to be -- I remember
snowstorms and rainstorms while meeting at night, and a picket, also, from the
opposition of Harold Washington. Someone picketed, and we were being
picketed. So it was significant, you know, and people knew it was significant. So
then we said -- we caucused, and the guy waited outside, and we caucused. He
came back in, and we said, “Here’s the deal. We’re going to be on the second
floor of City Hall at ten o’clock Tuesday. And we’re calling a press conference.
Let [01:38:00] the mayor know that he can be there or not, but we’ve got to go
through with this, because it will also discredit him if we don’t go through with
this, because he’s enjoyed our support, and this is something that we know is
important for our community, and it goes along with what he promised.” So we
did do that, and the mayor came in with a big smile, because, you know, there’s
one thing about Mayor Harold Washington. You knew that he was mayor, and
he couldn’t speak openly -- he couldn’t speak as if he were a community
organizer. He was a mayor. He was a statesman. [01:39:00] But you always
knew that he admired the people when they came together and when they
spoke, as he used to say. He used to say, “Ada,” when I consulted with him
because I had some concern or didn’t know how to go about something, he said,
“Ada, let your people speak.” And, you know, he was not afraid of knowing that
the community, the Puerto Rican community, was organizing, that the Puerto
Rican community had demands. He treated us with respect, and he knew it was
35
�the -- like the right thing to do, because -- he didn’t say this, but you sort of knew
that he was sensitive to it, and that he saw himself in that other chair once upon
a time. (laughter) [01:40:00] And we had difficulty. I mean, it wasn’t easy for us
sometimes, because we admired the mayor and his intelligence, and the way he
was bringing the different groups together in the city, but -- and people were just
more comfortable with being differently -- different ethnicity was being
comfortable with each other. And the African community would be more open
and ask me about the difference between one Latino group, another Latino
group, and there was a more open -- I would ask them about, “Tell me about the
South Side history versus the West Side,” and there was an openness that his
leadership allowed for. [01:41:00] Once in a while, I would call Cha-Cha. Once
in a rare while, I would call him or see him somewhere, and give him a little
report on what I was doing. I’d say, “You know, that was really” -- I think once I
went to your office, right? I said, “You know, I’m working on that, and it’s really
important. And this was wonderful that we did that.” And so we follow like that.
Right? But it kinda -- I knew he knew I was doing my work, and I knew he was
doing his thing, and thinking about another big idea. So my role as a
commissioner of the Mayor’s Commission on Latino Affairs is another, in a way,
[01:42:00] consequence of all the leadership that was developed in the Lincoln
Park area and in the -- because I think it was through the Lincoln Park and the
Young Lords that we had the space to ask the questions that had to do with
community self-determination, empowerment, the status of Puerto Rico. And
these were the harder questions and the more controversial questions that the
36
�other groups that were working at the same time in a parallel fashion, that the
other groups shun away from, because for whatever reason, either they had
committed to the agenda of the church that they belonged to and they [01:43:00]
were -- and their activity was framed by that agenda, like the Caballeros de San
Juan, although they did very similar things. You know? They visited people in
the hospitals. They dealt -- you know, the food was a concern, the health care,
people not having translations to go here or there, referrals, serving as a bridge
for people with agencies. The groups did a lot of similar things. But I believe that
it’s only the Young Lords that puts the big questions, and at the time the more
controversial questions, on the map for the Puerto Rican people, and reflects
more of what was happening in the ’60s in terms of -- [01:44:00] I should say I
saw -- I remember seeing it as parallel. The work was parallel to a lot of the
other groups that were also active in organizing at that time. So there was this
ethos in the city and in the country that allowed for, again, moving forward
historically even to a greater degree of consciousness, you know, of who we are.
And, you know, we become more aware of diaspora, that word that is being used
so much, the diaspora. We started becoming more aware [01:45:00] of this,
because then the people from New York came to Chicago, and they created a
Young Lords in Chicago and in other cities, and now we see how we can -- the
same way as the Chicanos in the Southwest and others, we see how we the
Puerto Ricans can take a point of view and some guiding principles and extend
them in the United States. You know? At the same time that you’re positioning
some of the people that share this worldview in key positions. So later, when --
37
�after the mayor died, [01:46:00] the board of education -- well, just to sum it up,
as a member -- to be a member of the board of education, I had to resign my job,
’cause I was a teacher and I was a bilingual coordinator. I had a nice
administrative position. And I took a risk, you know? I took a chance, and I
resigned my position. That’s why earlier I said, some of these -- we have to
sacrifice in some of these things. It costs you money. And the reason I resigned
is because I went through a selection process that the mayor had created, where
you went before [01:47:00] a committee of mainstream leaders. And I thought I
did a great job at the interview, because I prepared well. And I had made the
decision to take a leave of absence, because others had done it that way, and I
had researched it. So I went. I did an interview. I thought it was fine. And I
didn’t go through. I was not selected. And I couldn’t figure out why. So they
opened the process again, so I resubmitted, and I thought, I’ll do a better
interview. And I gathered letters of support from the League of Women Voters to
the women in trades, to everyone that felt they had not [01:48:00] had a voice.
You know? I got a letter from them. I mean, all walks of life, all ethnicities, all
kinds of leaders and organizations. I had the most letters that anyone ever had
had of support. And it took -- and one evening -- the second time, I [didn’t?] go
through. So then I called around. And someone said, “Well, you have some
opposition from an organization, a Latino organization, not a Puerto Rican
organization but a Latino organization.” And I said, “Really? Well, are you guys
meeting?” This was a political meeting. This was at Raymond [01:49:00]
Figueroa’s office on Pulaski and North Avenue. So, you know, I turned to my
38
�husband, Otto Pikaza, who was a founder of Latin Americans studies at the
University of Illinois and a history professor, Latin Americanist. I turned to him,
and I said, “You know, don’t worry about me. I’m gonna take the car. I’m gonna
go west on North Avenue to Pulaski. I’m gonna make a right. And Raymond’s
office is right there.” This was the days of no cell phone, right? “So Raymond’s
office is right there, and I’m going to go in there, because I want to know what’s
going on, ’cause so many people want me, and then I can’t get through.”
[01:50:00] Oh, ’cause the mayor also kept throwing back names, too, you know?
He -- every -- so then I found out at that meeting -- so I bogart the meeting. I sat
at the table. I said, “I’m not moving until I get an explanation. I gotta know
what’s going on.” So I did get the explanation. And then I got angry. This is to
tell you why. In the next time I went, the third time before the committee, you
know, someone looked at me sinist-- someone looked from across the table and
said, “Well, you know, I think we can -- I don’t have any problem selecting -- you
know, voting for you, but we talked, and we need you to resign from your
[01:51:00] position, because this could be embarrassing for the mayor, that you
are still an employee.” And I said, “Yeah, but Alderman Eisendrath didn’t have to
resign. He took a leave of absence.” He says, “No, but we have to.” And as I
argued the point, I saw that the guy was feeling relaxed and happy, and I then
looked at him straight in the eyes, and I said, “No problem. I’m happily married.
My husband will be happy to support me.” And he almost fell off that chair. And I
-- you know? So I had a good tenure. I had seven schools built. I rolled up my
sleeves, ’cause [01:52:00] I wasn’t working, right? (laughs) So I worked. I rolled
39
�up my sleeves. I had seven schools built. I worked with youth guidance, and we
got Pritzker, the father, to -- and the CEO of the old Bell and Howell company,
and we went to work. And we established the culinary arts program at Clemente
High School. And that was the first, most wonderful partnership, three-way
partnership, that was done, and it’s a partnership that is the way they should be,
you know, where the people aren’t [01:53:00] subsidizing anyone, but it’s truly a
partnership for the good of the school. And things like that occurred. Partnership
with the park district. And I like to think that -- and this was before the talk of
partnerships, because now, I mean -MSW: Now it’s everywhere. (laughs)
AL:
Yeah. In ’99, I mean, I don’t know. Under Bill Clinton, I remember, it was made
into a movement. But this wasn’t a partnership of just PR, you know? This was
real. And, you know, again, these are ideas and things that seemed so natural to
do, because of our experience in the community, because if you look at them, it’s
really essentially the same thing, the same ideas, right, of collaboration, because
[01:54:00] I don’t -- despite the tensions that sometimes ensued and the direct
action and demonstrations of the times, there was a lot of negotiation, there was
a lot of collaboration that existed, that perhaps is not highlighted as much,
because of course -- but there were -- otherwise, you know, things wouldn’t have
been -- programs wouldn’t have been established, or the influence wouldn’t have
been there. So that was -- I had a great opportunity serving as a board -- first of
all, being a commissioner, and then later on the board of education. And then in
1992, [01:55:00] through that same community work and those same
40
�relationships, I learned that there was going to be an election for trustees of the
University of Illinois. It was a statewide election. And I consulted both with
Puerto Rican community, others, you know, that I -- at that time, I was more
involved in a city, in citywide -- and with the African American community. And
then I decided to run for office. To my surprise, because after the worst strikes in
history on the board of education, [01:56:00] and the mayor dying, and my taking
from an incredible fall, I said to myself, “My gosh, you know, I must be nuts. I
can’t do this again.” You know? But then I started thinking, Wow, to be a trustee
of the university, a university that I studied in, that became part of my identity,
and that still has a long ways to go, I thought, I could do so much to support the
programs like LARES, Latin American Recruitment and Educational Programs
[Services], the Black Studies programs, all these programs that were created on
campus. So I thought of an opportunity. My husband was founder of the Latin
American studies program, and [01:57:00] so there was always that connection
and that familiarity with the campus, and the professors, and the issues, and all
that, because he was an activist, too, a professor slash ac-- and this was a great
time, you know. A great deal has been contributed. And I did what I set out to
do. Not all of it, you know, because I did want to transform the curriculum for
teacher preparation to make it more multidisciplinary, because I thought the way I
studied was the way that this globalization, this global world, this world needs to
prepare teachers. Anyway, and I think teachers are --[01:58:00] poor
communities not only need wonderful doctors and homes, but they need the best
teachers --
41
�MSW: Absolutely.
AL:
-- that a country can provide, you know? So I didn’t do that, but I did -- I was able
to give real support to all those programs. And in light of the movements to do
away with ethnic programs and affirmative action and all that --
MSW: Right.
AL:
-- they were -- they’re still there. We no longer talk about affirmative action on
campus, but -- and sure, I think that ground has been lost, because we know that
diversity does not mean the same thing.
MSW: Right.
AL:
But I think that, you know, the voices are still there. We’re still vigilant.
[01:59:00] And there is a lot of programs that exist to help the communities. I
think those linkages between the people in the institutions and the community,
and that camaraderie or mutual respect that existed between those who
organized and those who were part of institutions -- I don’t think that exists in the
same way. There are efforts, you know. But I still see them more traditional,
where professors come and do the research, and then -- and the proposals are
written. But there’s leadership in [02:00:00] the community that is not free, you
know, free to organize in the same way, don’t feel free to organize in the same
way. I think the system has become more centralized in many ways. You know,
not necessarily better or worse, because if we compare social injustice now and
social injustice then, I’m not sure how that compares. You know, I haven’t done
that. But just through our daily living, when you want to find someone who can
serve as the voice of a community or provide the consensus, and who do not
42
�have any ties to the institutions’ or the foundations’ limitations, [02:01:00] you
know? They’re not limited by those -- for me, it seems harder to find that now.
And before, it was a wonderful time when it was happening. It was bubbling from
the bottom up, and it was -- and we were searching for creative ways of dealing
with this. Whether it was institutions or outside, we were all part of a process
where we had to find the answers we didn’t know. It wasn’t about, “Go talk to
this bilingual teacher.” It was about, like, Bilingualism? What’s that? And then
the courts, you know, the cases going into court and the Supreme Court, Lau v.
Nichols. You have to teach the children in a language they can understand. And
it’s been -- and all that was happening. [02:02:00] Recently, I saw a
documentary where John [sic] Marshall speaks of how the couple, the Latino
couple in California -- Westminster, or something like that?
MSW: That’s right, yeah.
AL:
Yeah, were the ones who, thanks to them, a Puerto Rican woman, Mexican
husband, how they were the ones who created the foundation for the African
Americans to integrate the schools.
MSW: It was Thurgood Marshall’s first desegregation case, and it was the foundation for
Brown v. Board of Ed. Right.
AL:
Yeah, yeah. And as we grow and we go from the more specific to -- and take
[02:03:00] a long view and a wide view, we can see how program initiatives and
movements that start pretty much spontaneous in a community like Lincoln Park,
how that has ramifications and manifests itself in so many ways later on, as
people grow and occupy different places in the society. But, you know, you have
43
�those experiences. I mean, I think those experiences in the Lincoln Park
community were very transformational. I was at a point in my life where I
thought, you know, [02:04:00] boiling, frying, and mashing beans was something
quite strange. You know? And then you go to Lincoln Park, and there, there’s
Cha-Cha Jiménez, and there’s Free Puerto Rico, and the self-determination of
the Puerto Rican people, and all this is happening. But you have a mix, you
know? You have a mix of ethnicities. And wow, what -- how awesome is that,
you know, to be a young Puerto Rican and see that a Puerto Rican, another
young Puerto Rican, is a leader and is moving an agenda that is both [02:05:00]
local and attracts different ethnicities and races, but is also committed to Puerto
Rico, the homeland, and how the Puerto Ricans can be leaders that can move
the agenda of what is best for their homeland and have others join in that
movement. So I think those times were transformational. You know? I think
they were transformational. And I think that the work that we do to -- whether it’s
in teaching, to make sure that students have a clear consciousness, that they
can make choices, not to allow themselves to be indoctrinated, [02:06:00] ideas
about democratic classrooms. We didn’t invent those things, but certainly we
were thinking in the same lines. You know? And health care. The Mayor’s
Commission on Latino Affairs created the position for the first Hispanic top
executive to work parallel, to work hand in hand with the commissioner on health
in the city. You know? So there’s a lot of -- the history is with us. History is with
us. And the gentrification. You know, there are [02:07:00] still -- that’s still
something that communities are having to deal with, and the Young Lords serves
44
�as a point of reference for the first struggle. For many years, they were the first
point of reference. You know, remember the corner of Halsted and Armitage,
what was to be a tennis court. And sure, you know, when you struggle against
big business and government forces, sure, you lose many times, [02:08:00] but
that doesn’t make your struggle any less worthy or admirable. So that was a
point of reference, you know? And then later -- now later in history, we see it on
Division Street, where people are working with Paseo Boricua, but we know it
well, because it started in the ’60s. And when we see it in Puerto Rico, you
know, over there by Canteras, Santurce, in that prime land, when we see it in
Loíza, it’s still -- you know, has it really changed? Has it really changed? It has,
[02:09:00] in a lot of ways, in form, but essentially, has it really changed? You
know? And I hope that others take -- I hope that others, when they look at the
history, they take away some inspiration, and they look at the models, not
because we can repeat them, you know, because it’s a different world, but that
they take the essence, and they understand, and they can look at one essence,
another essence, and then find their own way of continuing to struggle for social
justice and for making sure that we have a homeland that is -- [02:10:00] where
people have a clear sense of their identity, and that it’s an identity rooted in the
history of Puerto Rico going back more than 500 years, and that they don’t allow
-- just like the Young Lords did not allow, when they raised questions -- that they
do not allow for the media or the big business or the marketing people to define
what is their identity and who they work for, and who they should work for. And
when they get up in the morning, what is their purpose? That they’re not defined
45
�by [02:11:00] others, but they say, You know, how far does my heritage go?
Who am I, and what is the value of having my language? And what can I
contribute to the world as a Puerto Rican? And if I want to be bilingual, and if I
want to be bilingual bicultural, how are other countries doing it, like Italy? How is
Italy being bilingual? How is it that they learn English but have no problems
being Italian? You know? So I -- this is why I feel, you know -- that I regret that I
didn’t have time enough to work on [02:12:00] those teachers, because the
teachers are very, very important. (laughter) How teachers are prepared, you
know? And the theories that drive the elite schools of the country, you know, the
Latin School here in Chicago, the Montessori schools, the schools founded at the
University of Chicago by John Dewey’s philosophy, those were all meant for
everybody. You know?
MSW: That was supposed to be the promise of American public education. (laughs)
AL:
That was the promise of American public education. That’s right. And I hope
that in Puerto Rico, the promise -- you know, that there are some that can point
to that. And is education going to be to democratize, are our institutions going to
be to democratize, or are we going to have, you know, more and more [02:13:00]
centralized government? And do Puerto Ricans start emulating the elite schools
and turn their back on the others? What are we going to do? And it’s good. It’s
good that we have a history, you know, that we can reflect on. It tells us that it’s
not impossible, that things aren’t impossible. It tells us that we can do great
things when we organize, when we come to a consensus, and when we have
coordinated action, whatever that action is in that particular moment. I mean, the
46
�saving of Saint Francis -- I was gonna tell you about that. Well, I was -- as a
trustee -- [02:14:00] you know, as a trustee, I worked hard to be fair with
everyone, because as a trustee, that’s what you have to do, right? So I took my
charge very, very seriously. I wasn’t a Latina and I wasn’t just a Puerto Rican. I
was a trustee. But because I’m Hispanic, first of all, I ran for office statewide.
The Democratic Party arranged for me to go around the state of Illinois
campaigning. I had the opportunity to campaign with all the -- many of the
people that were campaigning at the time, because it was a presidential election.
So Bill -MSW: And what year was this?
AL:
Ninety-two.
MSW: Ninety-two.
AL:
[02:15:00] So Hillary Clinton was Bill Clinton’s surrogate, and she was the one
that campaigned with us in Illinois. But Dawn Clark Netsch and other leaders of
the Democratic Party. During my campaign, I would speak to the advance
people, and I would ask them -- and I just asked them -- I would just suggest that
since I was going to a certain place and there were Latinos there, that if they
could please arrange for having Hispanics there, too. You know? So I -- so
speaking about accessing people and democratizing, that’s the first thing. First
thing in campaigns, I would go, and I’d see one group or another group. And I
said, “Wait a minute. I want to campaign with different community -- [02:16:00]
go be for different communities.” Right? So I even went before the women’s
group at the East-West Corridor, which is a Republican area. You know, but out
47
�of respect, I went before that group, and I campaigned. And some of the women
came to me afterwards and said, “You know, I’m going to vote for you.” So -MSW: Marvelous.
AL:
Yeah, you know? Because people really need to hear. So I really enjoyed
campaigning. It was very hard, and sometimes I wondered if it was sane, what I
was doing, because it’s volunte-- there’s no salary attached to that, and you do
kind of risk your life on the airplanes. But I campaigned. And then the first issue
was getting -- addressing [02:17:00] an issue that followed me. It was -- because
the students had protested against what they considered racism on campus in
Urbana. And they were very angry, and they protested. It was a student protest
that included Asian and Blacks. I didn’t follow. All I knew is that it had been very
-- how do I say -- confrontational, and that the students were protesting for things
in Urbana that we already had on the Chicago campus. And I thought, Well,
that’s not that hard. It’s 1992. (laughter) It’s not that hard. There must be a
misunderstanding or something. [02:18:00] And I didn’t want to deal with it on
the campaign trail, because I didn’t know enough. But then when I was elected, I
did. And then I had the discipline procedures reviewed, and their records were
expunged so that they would not have a record. And then the other thing -- and
then there are many ways that I think I contributed. Affirmative action, more
women and more Latinos in faculty, strengthening programs at a time when the
university was under a lot of pressure to do away with all programs. So it was -but one of the things that I will always remember is the controversy around Saint
Francis. Saint Francis is a Catholic church that had landmark status. It was the
48
�first church in Chicago that gave [02:19:00] mass in Spanish. And this was a
church that had a large Puerto Rican congregation, because these were the
Puerto Ricans that I talked to you about that were, like, around Madison Avenue
and Roosevelt, and many of them had worked their way up into Chicago from the
steel mills, also. And then the church was, before that, Italian; before that, it was
-- it had other groups that had gone there. But a beautiful little church, you know,
that served as a point of reference. Four thousand parishioners. They have to
take turns. They start mass on Fridays, because they don’t fit, and there’s so
many people that come. So this is a thriving -- this was a thriving church, unlike
others in the area. And [02:20:00] when the University of Illinois decided to have
its master plan for expansion, part of the plan was to level -- to take away
Maxwell Street, and this church is right there, you know, between the university
and Maxwell Street. So that was part of the plan. The parishioners began to
contact the Latino elected officials, and they also contacted me. So as a trustee,
I took this very seriously, and I started looking into it. And it seemed that the
university, the city mayor, and the archdiocese had all agreed to close this
church, level the [02:21:00] property, so that the development could start there
on Roosevelt instead of starting half a block inward. Well, it got the point that -where the parishioners started protesting. Well, one of the roles I played was to
have the parishioners come before -- now, I was elected with almost three million
votes statewide, so it was a political process, although I believe it was more of a
democratic process than it is now, ’cause now you get a phone call from the
governor. They changed the law, you know. And now you get a phone call from
49
�the governor, and before, you had to really work at it, you know, and put yourself
out there, your position out there. But anyway, but because it was a political
process, [02:22:00] I was able to get support during another election on the
board of trustees so that we could review that process. Speaking again about
democratizing the process, you know, from those past experiences, I had
meetings with the parishioners, and I had to explain to them what the board did,
the board of trustees did; what our role, our responsibilities were; what we could,
what we could not do. And they learned a great -- I mean, they learned how the
meetings worked, and they got a petition of [02:23:00] four thousand people and
brought it to the board. That’s part of what they did. And then the dynamics
changed, and the archdiocese abandoned the property, and there was an
opportunity for the university to buy it. So I said to the congregation, “As a
trustee, I don’t feel comfortable going against the idea of purchasing land for the
university and allowing a developer to buy it.” And they said, “Okay. We’ll have
to think of what to do.” And that was my role in it. But what happened next is
that they occupied the church for about -- speaking about occupations of
churches -- they occupied [02:24:00] the church for about thirteen days in the
coldest winter. This church had no heat nor benches nor windows. It was
stripped of all that. The bulldoze-- they were in the church. They had a
committee come. They had different committees come and give them water,
electric, heat, and all that. And then the bulldozers came. In this coldness of
dark and winter, you know, in January, the bulldozers came, and the people
stood. The congregation came. They stood. They held hands. They prayed.
50
�And they stood there in the cold until the bulldozers withdrew. And then I helped
the group. I connected the group -- [02:25:00] you know, I facilitated the early
meetings so that the committee that was working with the community -- a
committee of more sophisticated parishioners then started meeting with the
university, and they did a land swap. And they built a little more. By that time, I
was off the -- I was no longer a trustee, because I was a trustee for six years.
MSW: Okay. And this was what years?
AL:
This must have been like 1996 or something like that. So that would be, like,
when that master plan -- but this was very difficult for me, because what
happened is that the Latino groups who had an interest in that expansion and
were working with the developers [02:26:00] organized against me, and went to
City Hall and had a press conference denouncing me for being against
affirmative action, which was silly, because I was the chair of affirmative action,
’cause nobody wanted to do it. (laughter) Yeah. No, and people appreciated,
because I didn’t -- I wasn’t angry about affirmative action. I was working within
the paradigm of the institution and their mission, and I knew how to work on this,
because we had done it so often before, you know, with the mayor of the city,
with the board of education. I mean, I had experience. So I had no difficulties in
the committee. But I did know the law. And when they wanted me to come out
and promise [02:27:00] jobs, I knew that was not the law of the land at the time,
and I knew that the university couldn’t deliver either, so whoever promised them
that, you know, was not correct. So it was very difficult during that time. But the
church people prevailed, and the church is still there. And that’s the story of
51
�Saint Francis. It’s another example of how, in another -- it’s another example of
what happens when you can work in a coordinated fashion, you know, and with
the community, with communities. And it’s the way [02:28:00] that institutions
can be democratized, by allowing the voices of the people they serve to translate
into policy. And sure, it has to be rational, and you can’t satisfy everyone, and
there are conflicting goods, so you can’t do it all, but it’s better than the
alternative, which is making decisions in an alienated fashion and playing one
community against the other by pointing the finger and saying, “Well, you don’t
have anything because the other community has everything.” You know? So it
might benefit others, but it doesn’t benefit us. So those are some of my stories.
MSW: Those are wonderful.
AL:
You’re hungry? You want to go downstairs?
JJ:
(Spanish) -- if we have anything else to add, we’ll add it, any further [thoughts?].
AL:
Yeah, or you could call me on the phone.
JJ:
No, no, no. No, no.
MSW: [We could?].
AL:
Oh, you can come back?
JJ:
[02:29:00] Should we eat?
AL:
Let’s go downstairs.
JJ:
Should we eat, or...?
MSW: Absolutely (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
AL:
Let’s go downstairs.
JJ:
Because we still gotta get the -- we still got some stuff we gotta --
52
�MSW: Okay.
END OF AUDIO FILE
53
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cca2d9f509895905ba0d3537df7edb0f.mp3
dbe971bb6026c45c0a85d9a112e33bad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
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Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-04-25
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
spa
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
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2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Ada Nivía López vídeo entrevista y trancripción
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Educación--Illinois--Chicago
Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951-
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-65_Lopez_Ada
Title
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Ada Nivía López audio interview and transcript
Creator
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López, Ada
Description
An account of the resource
Ada Nivía López was born in Puerto Rico and moved to Chicago with her family in 1956. She describes life in Lincoln Park in those early days, including her Father´s leadership in Latino community and his run for alderman in the early 1960s. She became active in her community at an early age and continued her activism throughout her college years, working closely the Young Lords. Ms. López was a founding member and commissioner of the Mayor´s Advisory Commission on Latino Affairs, which was designed by the Young Lords and created in partnership with Mayor Harold Washington´s office. Ms. López became the first Latina to win a statewide election to the Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois where she was instrumental in positioning the university to play a prominent role in addressing urban issues.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Shell-Weiss, Melanie
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Education--Illinois--Chicago
Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951-
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Date
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2012-08-24
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1ed01bfbe605891a68ad1aeba90b1145.pdf
1eafe5c58de7853c47e1e983bc757f0d
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Antonio López
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 7/11/2012
Biography and Description
Antonio López grew up in the Logan Square Neighborhood of Chicago and heard about the Young Lords
early in life, as his parents are activists. Mr. López is also active in various projects and community
organizations. He is of Mexican descent and Logan Square is currently a prime real estate target for
developers, who continue to prey on Latinos and the poor, and are supported by city hall and their
housing Master Plan. In fact it is not hard to locate many of these developers who readily finance
machine loyalists and who have sat and still sit on the many city boards. Mr. López ‘s parents were
connected to the land grant struggles in New Mexico that were being led by Reis López Tijerina. Mr.
Tijerina was born on September 21, 1926 near Falls City, Texas. He is preacher who founded the Alianza
Federal de Pueblos Libres (Federal Alliance of Land Grants) in New Mexico. He is widely credited as
launching the early Chicano Civil Rights Movement, although Mr. Tijerina prefers the term “Indo Hispano
Movement” because the word “Chicano” can also divide Mexicans. At the time of this oral history, Mr.
López was completing his doctoral studies in the Department of History at the University of Texas, El
Paso. His doctoral dissertation focuses on the Rainbow Coalition, which originally began with Chairman
Fred Hampton and included the Young Patriots and Young Lords. Mr. López has voluntarily assisted the
Young Lords on various projects beyond his dissertation.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Antonio, if you can tell me your name and date of birth.
ANTONIO LOPEZ: So, my name is Antonio Reyes Lopez. I was born on July 21, 1980.
I was actually born in Gary, Indiana and then raised in Chicago, Illinois.
JJ:
In 1980?
AL:
Yeah, I was born in 1980. My folks were steelworkers. Actually, my family is
from New Mexico.
JJ:
They were steelworkers there?
AL:
Well, they weren’t steelworkers in New Mexico. My dad was actually a migrant
worker, a student. My mom was a farm worker too. They came from rural
families in New Mexico. And then, like a lot of people, looked for work in the
steel mills at that time and migrated from New Mexico to Gary in the late ’70s and
then worked in the steel mills together.
JJ:
Did a lot of people migrated at that time to the steel mills?
AL:
Yeah, there was a lot of people that -- well, I don’t know if too many people from
New Mexico, but I think in general for years and years and decades, [00:01:00]
the steel mills and the jobs here in Chicago have attracted a lot of people. But
also the politics of steelworkers at that time was really hot. So my folks are
actually movement people, very much activists. And so, to be there in the steel
mills was kind of a place to be. So, they went and worked there, of course, until
that industry kind of collapsed in the mid ’80s and that’s when my family moved
to Chicago.
1
�JJ:
Okay, but did they go there to organize, or did they just go there to work?
AL:
I think they went there to organize.
JJ:
But they were involved in --
AL:
Yeah, they were involved in some of the politics of that era. So, as you know, a
lot of the politics was like -- a lot of people had done the community work. But
that got kind of repressed. So, there was a lot of movement towards going back
to the point of production and doing work, really the working class organizing at
the point of production. [00:02:00] So, during the late ’70s, really steelworkers
were very much at the forefront of a lot of that kind of politics, a lot of that militant
revolutionary politics particularly across race, coming together in the class
struggles.
JJ:
So, were there union organizers? Were they union?
AL:
Yeah, they became part of the union, but I think they were more --
JJ:
What union?
AL:
I think they were with the -- what is it, the -- oh man, I’m going to forget right now.
JJ:
Some kind of steel.
AL:
U.S. Steel. It was the U.S. Steelworkers. Yeah, they were working at U.S. Steel
and they were involved with the union. And also, Gary’s a Black community, so
they were really involved in kind of doing that work. So, part of it was also
implicated in the history of my family being -- my dad particularly being pretty
much a revolutionary in New Mexico and then having to get out of New Mexico
because shit got crazy.
2
�JJ:
Let’s talk a little bit about New Mexico. So, who’s the revolutionary there? Was
that connected to [00:03:00] Reies López?
AL:
Yeah. I mean, Reies was very active a little bit earlier than my dad. My dad’s a
little younger than Reies. But definitely involved with the Chicano movement.
My dad was very much at the forefront. He actually founded Chicano Studies at
the University of New Mexico in the ’60s.
JJ:
What was your dad’s name?
AL:
My dad’s name is [Ezequiel Lopez, Ezequiel Antonio Lopez?]. My father was
from --
JJ:
And your mom’s name?
AL:
My mom’s name is [Esther Lopez?]. My father comes from the villages, though,
that Reies was organizing in the ’50s. So, my dad is from a village called Sena,
New Mexico, and Sena, New Mexico is a rural mountain community. I mean,
these are really poor people who lost the land back really when the U.S. came in
and conquered New Mexico. So, there’s a history of colonialism, history of
conquest that goes way back with my family.
JJ:
So, was that the land grants? Was that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
AL:
Yes, that’s all of that struggle [00:04:00] that Reies then went into and entered
into that struggle in the ’50s basically. That’s where my dad’s side of the family is
from.
JJ:
I’m just kind of going back a little bit.
(break in recording)
3
�AL:
-- against not only the capitalists and the owning class here in Chicago, but it was
also struggling against over political organizations at the community level who
were saying we should follow a race program, we should follow a racial program.
So, it’s kind of in the middle of that. It’s struggling against -- that’s the way I see
it. I see it as saying, look, that’s important. It’s important that we have pride. It’s
important that we love our people. But we’ve got to get to the class struggle, and
that’s why the community service programs were so important because they
were educating people on how important the politics was, that you have a state
that doesn’t meet the needs, that actually thrives on poverty, thrives on despair in
the city of Chicago.
JJ:
So, you said we’ve got to get to the class struggle. [00:05:00] Can you explain?
AL:
Yeah. One of the concepts I try to introduce in my project is called a flexible
hybridity is what I call it. That’s like an academic term. See, I don’t think the
Black Panthers and the Young Lords -- you can correct me if I’m wrong. But it
wasn’t about saying, “We’re going to form this alliance. And all the sudden now
we’re going to dissolve being Puerto Rican or dissolve being Black or dissolve
being Southern white.” So, it wasn’t like this coalition where you come and now
you’re this artificial new unit. It was saying, “No,” it was saying “We still love
being Puerto Rican, Mexicano, Black. We’re Brown and proud. We’re Black and
proud. We’re Southern white and proud. White power, Black power, Red power.
Power to everybody.” Right? But it was also saying at a certain point we’ve got
to come together as a working class in a class struggle. So, that flexibility to be
able to say we can come together and defend Puerto Rican independence and
4
�defend the Chicano movement and Aztlán, defend Black power, defend
[00:06:00] Black people but yet come together in a class struggle. That flexibility,
I think, is very important. It makes the original Rainbow Coalition different. A lot
of people think you form a coalition, it’s just like a new thing and all the sudden
you’re a new -- it wasn’t about being a new organization. That’s what I think
people don’t understand. That’s why I try to highlight that there wasn’t a
headquarters, there wasn’t a Rainbow Coalition headquarters. It was basically
like you’ve told me you handle your business and your neighborhood and your
people. We’re handling ours, you’re handling yours, and we come together on
the class politics, on the revolutionary politics. And I think that’s a really
important lesson that people have not really grasped yet.
JJ:
So, you’re trying to get into class politics [being?] common interest.
AL:
Yeah. And you build in your community the class struggle in your community.
You know what I mean? You engage the -- because we’ve got a --
JJ:
Is that what you’re (inaudible)?
AL:
Yeah. What I’m saying is I think that’s just a different vision of solidarity than
what people have right now. When they think of solidarity, it’s like, “Oh, let me
go to Mexico and go do work over there.” No, do work in your neighborhood.
[00:07:00] Do work in your community. You know what I mean? Build a class
consciousness in your space, wherever you’re at.
JJ:
What is class consciousness? What does it mean to you? What does it mean to
you?
5
�AL:
Yeah. So, what I talk a lot about a lot -- and this is really what the project or the
main research question is -- how do people develop a political consciousness of
class struggle? Where does it come from? Where do you develop that? Do you
develop it from leaders telling you that this is what you’ve got to think? Do you
develop it from reading Mao or reading Frantz Fanon? What I write about -- what
I try to argue is that actually a class consciousness or a political consciousness
comes from what you experience and what you live and what you understand in
the city of Chicago, right? So, a class consciousness particularly is an
understanding that there is a political struggle between the working class and the
owning class. There is an antagonistic -- that struggle cannot be reconciled. You
can’t have [00:08:00] an amicable relationship between business owners and
workers. And it’s because one side is trying to exploit, rob, make as much money
off they can from people from exploiting their production, and the other side are
the workers who are being exploited. And so, any time you have an exploiter and
exploited contradiction, you can’t reconcile that contradiction. So, how do you
develop a consciousness of that? Now, that’s a class struggle. But we know that
people aren’t just workers and owners. They’re Puerto Ricans. They’re
Mexicanos. They’re Black folks. They’re Southern whites. They’re whoever they
are, people from the Middle East, wherever they come from. So, how do you
come from that position of saying, “I’m a Chicano,” and having a real hardcore
identity about that -- say, “I love my people” -- to then say, “But you know what?
There’s an important class struggle at play that affects everybody.” Not only
does it affect everybody in Chicago, it’s everybody in the world. It’s a global
6
�struggle because imperialism went around the world. They went global.
[00:09:00] They went global, right? The capitalists had to go global in order to
save capitalism some time ago. So, when you embrace that class struggle
aspect, you connect with everybody around the world. You connect globally
because that struggle is in play everywhere. So, how do you develop that
consciousness? How do you develop the consciousness for class struggle?
JJ:
So, are you saying that you’re connecting to struggles that are involved all over
the world?
AL:
Yeah, you can understand it. Once you embrace -- and like I said, it doesn’t
mean you have to relinquish who you are and what you -- your love and your
pride for your people or where you’re from. But when you embrace a class
consciousness, you’re able to understand what the politics is in other places of
the world because there’s business owners and workers everywhere. And so,
you can understand what -- it gives you the key into understanding the dynamics
of oppression in other places in the world. And therefore, you can connect as
oppressed peoples. [00:10:00]
JJ:
So, as oppressed peoples -- so, you’re saying like in Mexico there’s the struggle
between the rich and the poor and in Puerto Rico there’s the same struggle.
AL:
Yeah, there’s a struggle between the rich and the poor.
JJ:
And so, you’re saying that these people who are poor are connecting with the
poor in each country.
AL:
Yeah, so what happens is that --
JJ:
But they also have their own countries.
7
�AL:
So, there’s an issue where you can connect. But what I’m more interested in and
what I think the original Rainbow Coalition is important is because if you only say,
“Man, I’m Mexican, so I only think about Mexicans,” that race, that idea, that
border -- it blocks you from recognizing that you have something in common and
a shared experience with a Puerto Rican. We have all these divisions between
Mexicans and Puerto Ricans in Chicago, which is a false antagonistic
relationship.
JJ:
What was this called? At that time, we had the Rainbow of Coalition. Do you
remember (inaudible)? [00:11:00]
AL:
Yeah. I think one of the things that I try to --
JJ:
I mean, some of it’s just nationalistic.
AL:
Yeah, it was called pork chop nationalism. It was called cultural nationalism.
That’s what you’re looking at. If you’re really nationalistic, you’re not able to get
to the internationalism. So, I think the original Rainbow Coalition --
JJ:
(inaudible) a term that came out of that when (inaudible).
AL:
And that’s why I think if you look at -- you can look at a lot of people.
JJ:
The difference between progressive nationalism and cultural nationalism.
AL:
Exactly, cultural nationalism versus revolutionary nationalism. It’s an important
distinction to make. But I think the thing is -- we have a lot of (inaudible)
particularly young people my age --
JJ:
It was being made by the Rainbow Coalition.
AL:
That’s right.
JJ:
It’s part of the concept that (inaudible).
8
�AL:
That was one of the main -- why it’s so politically significant because it was
introducing -- and that’s what I’m saying [how flexible?]. You could have the
revolutionary nationalism and the [00:12:00] internationalism, the class struggle
aspects of it.
JJ:
You were saying it was (inaudible) are.
AL:
Yeah, exactly. It’s all right. But see, a lot of people think nowadays think, “All I
got to do is be proud and represent my people and carry a big flag and be down
for my people.” And it’s not about that because there are some of your people
who are capitalists, who are exploiting you, who are taking advantage of you, and
who are creating more oppression. And that’s who we should be in struggle with
too.
JJ:
And divisions, who are creating more divisions for the benefit of capitalism.
AL:
That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. So, we can look at lot of people, but Fred
Hampton always kind of was so good at expressing it. He says you can’t fight
fire with fire. You’ve got to fight fire with water. And if you think about racism,
you might feel a lot of racial oppression. But you can’t fight racial oppression by
saying, “I’m only down for my race.” There aren’t even no races anyway. But
you might say, “I’m only down for my people.” You’re fighting fire with fire. What
you have to do is fight -- as he said, you have to fight racism with solidarity. You
have to fight racism with the class struggle. [00:13:00] You fight capitalism with
socialism. And that was the essence really with the Rainbow Coalition. But it
was a solidarity that wasn’t about making this new artificial organization or a new
people. It was about saying, “Look, do real work, community service work in your
9
�communities. And if you do that and we understand you’re not racist, we
understand you’re doing important work and we come together, then we can
meet and then we can build.”
JJ:
So, it wasn’t an organization. What do you think it was?
AL:
Oh no, I think it was an alliance, a coalition. I think it does -- it meets all the
standards of a coalition. It’s like one Panther said, we have each other’s back.
And I think that’s what it was. You had each other’s back. The Young Lords
supported people. They worked together. They helped each other. They
embraced the 10 point platform of the Black Panther Party. The did the
community service program. The Young Lords were -- y’all came from the
neighborhoods. Who knew Lincoln Park better than the Young Lords? Nobody.
[00:14:00] The Black Panthers didn’t know Lincoln Park, but you guys knew. So,
I think that was part of the genius of the Panther Party too was to not go in and
try to say, “We know your neighborhood more than you know it.” It was to say,
“No, you know, organize your neighborhood, man. Let’s get it together. Let me
just give you a little bit of this Panther politics.” The way I write about it in my
dissertation is that the Young Lords and the Young Patriots were already
prepared to embrace that politics. They didn’t need the Panther Party to come in
and necessarily teach them too much or manipulate them or -- if you grew up in
Lincoln Park, you saw police brutality, you saw poverty, you saw all these kinds of
things going on. You come from Puerto Rico, you know what’s going on in
Puerto Rico. So, when the Panthers come and say it’s a class struggle, people -the Young Lords say, “Oh, yeah. We see that. I see what you’re saying. Let’s do
10
�this.” That’s what it was. You didn’t need to be -- and I think that’s where the
struggle with other academics is who try to kind of represent things in a different
light. [00:15:00]
JJ:
Because it wasn’t clear (inaudible) a lot of members what you’re discussing right
now. It was clear among the leadership, but it wasn’t really clear -- you know, we
were evolving at that time so to speak.
AL:
So, I think it’s important to think of the Rainbow Coalition. We can think about it
as an alliance, as an coalition. But I think it’s important to think about it as a
political tactic. That’s an important thing to think about, to think about it as
saying, “We’re going to form this because we have an enemy who thrives off of
these racial divisions, who thrives off of our people wanting to be race leaders or
have this cultural nationalism.” So, the original Rainbow Coalition was a political
tactic to undermine that, to strike against that and to really teach the people that
it’s a class struggle.
JJ:
What it wasn’t for sure was an organization. It was not an organization.
[00:16:00] Because there’s confusion today among people. They think it was an
organization. It was just like you said. People were already working in their
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And they came together and it was more of an
alliance, or a tactic.
AL:
And I think when you talk about -- this was really something that developed
among the political leadership of each organization is important, because you
guys, the rank and file members were busy in the breakfast for children program.
They were busy selling newspapers. They were busy fighting with landlords or
11
�fighting with business owners or whatever it is that they’re doing. A lot of times,
when you’re doing that work, you don’t have a lot of time -JJ:
And just discussing -- there’s a lot of discussion (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
renaissance.
AL:
Yeah, going to political education meetings. That’s a lot of time you’re putting in.
So, a lot of people that -- maybe they didn’t even have a chance to really come
together on that level. But they knew that the Young Lords had each other’s back
and they knew that --
JJ:
It was understood.
AL:
Yeah, it was understood, it was understood.
JJ:
It wasn’t clearly articulated, but it was understood.
AL:
So, and this is where I think we’ve got to deal with these liberal concepts of a
coalition and solidarity, because [00:17:00] there’s this liberal notion of, “Oh,
people got together and they were like” -- no, it wasn’t like that. People had hard
work to do and every day they had to get up early as hell and put in work. It
wasn’t -- so, we had to kind of work against that liberal notion of coalitions and
solidarity work.
JJ:
You just mentioned something that was interesting. What about -- because it
was also work. The coalition was work. It was about raising people’s
consciousness, right? And so, as a lot of people thought that, okay, I’m a
Marxist-Leninist, why isn’t everybody in a Marxist-Leninist? What the Rainbow
Coalition was saying was everybody is not that. So, everybody doesn’t
understand the class consciousness, so we have work to do.
12
�AL:
Yeah, I think so.
JJ:
I mean, is that what you found out?
AL:
Oh yeah, I think that’s a really important point because -- I would put it like this.
[00:18:00] One of the things that -- the way that I write about it is that I think you
can think about the Rainbow Coalition alongside thinking about how important
the breakfast for children programs were or the health centers or the legal
service programs were. It was one of the most effective political tactics. See, the
community service programs -- in my mind, it was a tactic to be able to educate
people. In other words, if we’re feeding you, there’s somebody who’s not feeding
you. If we’re caring for your health and your welfare and your education, it’s
because this country, this society, this state is not caring for your health. So, it
was a way to educate people. It was a tactic that was allowed -- that provided
people the way to interact with the community but also to educate them about
what -- who really cares for you. And so, in that -- and so, people -- the Panthers
and the Young Lords talk about people learn through what? They learn through
observation and participation. So, through the community service programs,
people could observe and participate, and that’s how you learn politics. So, there
was very much [00:19:00] an educational aspect to the community service
program.
JJ:
And you’re by saying by interacting (inaudible) connecting to the community.
AL:
Right. Which is why the politicians, the police always were trying to close those
institutions down. Because it was a point of interaction. It was a point of
education. And also, it was a point -- and this is what I write about in my
13
�dissertation. Those were the most important tactics that brought legitimacy to the
Young Lords, the Black Panthers, the Young Patriots, and also the original
Rainbow Coalition. When you’re feeding people and caring for the elderly and
doing these things, then the people see. “Man, okay, they’re not gangsters and
only gang bangers. These are people from our neighborhood who love us, care
for us, and are putting our lives on the line for us.” And it teaches them. They
see it. They observe it. And then, they’re with it. So, the legitimacy aspect was
really important. That’s why all the stuff with the police gets too hard, right,
because the police are the police. But once you’re getting that real legitimacy in
the communities and building with people in the communities, that gets
[00:20:00] dangerous. Because, see, [they always deal with you?] when they’re
dealing with you. You’re going to go fight the police, they’ll deal with you all day.
But once you get that legitimacy with the community, that’s dangerous.
JJ:
Who were -- can you give me some of the names of the people that you
interviewed for your dissertation?
AL:
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, I think this one of the things where I hope the project
goes and I can do more interviews with people. I was able to talk with a few of
the Panthers, people like Lynn French. I was also able to talk with one of the
women who was in the apartment when Chairman Fred Hampton was killed.
JJ:
So, Lynn French was -- what was her --
AL:
Lynn French was part of the -- I think she -- although this wasn’t like clearly
defined. But she was, I think, the labor minister at one point. Labor minister, I
believe. But that wasn’t -- maybe different.
14
�JJ:
Everybody did a whole lot of different things.
AL:
Yeah, there was a lot of different titles. But she was a very important woman,
female Panther. The Black Panthers of Chicago [00:21:00] had a lot of really
great women leaders and workers.
JJ:
And you mentioned some others.
AL:
At that time, her name was Brenda Harris. She was more of a rank and file
member. But she was in the apartment when Fred Hampton was killed, and she
was also shot during that incident. So, I was able to -- she was shot by the
Chicago police during that incident. I was able to interview her.
JJ:
It was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) talk with her.
AL:
It was amazing to talk with her. It’s amazing to talk to all of these activists. She
was really amazing because I think she -- I really felt the spirit of her, of how that
consciousness that the Panthers had and how it still survives and it still exists.
So, she talked a lot about -- I talked to her about her -- she grew up in Lawndale
and went to schools there. So, she talked about how bad the schools were and
how they were really racist and how --
JJ:
Lawndale is the West Side?
AL:
Yeah, the West Side.
JJ:
Where the --
AL:
Yeah, she grew up there.
JJ:
She came from (inaudible).
15
�AL:
Yeah, she grew up in that community. [00:22:00] One of the best parts of her
interview too -- she used to sell newspapers and she used to talk about how the
people --
JJ:
She’s still alive?
AL:
Yeah, she’s still alive. And she talked about how when she was selling
newspapers that people recognized her. They liked her. They would feed her.
So, she talked a lot about that legitimacy again that was built there and how even
at one point there was a raid. The police raided the Panther office. I think it was
in June actually of 1969. They had raided it three times, but one of them, they
set a fire up in the headquarters. And many of the people there in the community
in the West Side had learned to love the Panther Party. They actually ran up
there and put the fire out themselves. There was this guy that had a fancy
leather jacket and he was even beating the fire with his leather jacket. You don’t
do that if you don’t have any love and care for that organization. You know what I
mean? So, she really was able to break it down on how there was really this
[00:23:00] deep connections that were beginning to be build. I think that’s
important. I think we can’t romanticize it. But there were these really profound
ties that were beginning to be built in the communities there because they came
from there. They came from the communities, and then they did all this service in
the communities just like the Young Lords and I think just like the Young Patriots
too.
JJ:
So, who was (inaudible).
16
�AL:
I was able to talk to Willie Calvin. He was on the defense committee and stuff
like that.
JJ:
(inaudible) in your dissertation.
AL:
I draw a lot on his. One of the things I draw on his work was the interview with
him was that -- he came out of the Army and then he was -- he got basically
organized in Crane High School there on the West Side also. And so, a lot of it
was them -- how they encountered the Panthers and they got basically brought
into the organization. And so, I more utilized his work to talk about how the
Panthers drew from not only -- it was students [00:24:00] and then it was also
people from street organizations but also it was ex-military or veterans that kind
of came back from the military and then became organized into the Panther
Party. There was kind of three -- a lot of people think it was just kind of ex-gang
members that became Panthers. And it really wasn’t that. Actually, the Young
Lords may have more of a history of that, of actually evolving from a street
organization into a political party. The Black Panther Party was not really that. It
was a lot of students. Fred Hampton wasn’t a gang member. A lot of other
people weren’t. They were civil rights activists and many of them were students.
Some of them came from street organizations and some of them came from the
military. So, I use him as kind of an example to demonstrate there was people
coming from different directions.
JJ:
Ok what about Young Lords?
AL:
I was able to talk with [Omar Lopez?]. I was able to talk with you.
JJ:
What (inaudible)?
17
�AL:
Omar was really good because Omar -- he’s a Mexicano and his brother was
also pretty much [00:25:00] a very important activist that had been political in
LADO and also was even political in Mexico. And so, there was that kind of
history of people understanding oppression in Mexico or Puerto Rico or coming
to Chicago and already having that kind of background. And then, he’s involved
in LADO. I think at some point, he makes a transition into the Young Lords. So,
he was able to really break that down.
JJ:
He was (inaudible) student (inaudible).
AL:
Yeah, then a circle that I think is a --
JJ:
The YMCA or something like that.
AL:
Yeah. So, he was -- but we talked a lot too about what it meant to be -- because
I think he actually grew up in Humboldt Park actually, which was at that time still
a predominantly white neighborhood. So, when you talk about -- we were talking
a lot about Latino history in terms of what it meant to be --
JJ:
Well, he came in 1966 around that time. At that time, it was Puerto Rican
neighborhood(inaudible) [00:26:00] because it was a Mexican family in a
primarily Puerto Rican area at that time. And they got involved with the Puerto
Rican community.
AL:
One of the things that was interesting about the history was his brother was
actually (audio cuts out) to react to the riots and actually try to get people out of
jail by selling these records of -- there’s this really famous ballad of the -- that
was talking about the history of the Puerto Rican riots. But again, the way that
18
�the cultural nationalism worked that he got involved -- I think it was the Spanish
Action Committee or something like that.
JJ:
Spanish Action Coalition.
AL:
But they were just -- because they were more nationalistic, they didn’t really want
to work with -- kind of across with Mexicans. So, I think because of that, they
kind of began LADO, right? So, again, it’s one of these precursors --
JJ:
And they became criticized even though they were in a leadership role in
(inaudible).
AL:
Right. So, he ended up having -- because you have, again, these divisions -[00:27:00]
JJ:
Not by the Young Lords because we definitely respected his leadership.
AL:
Of course. But the thing about LADO too --
JJ:
They played a major role in the Young Lords.
AL:
The thing about LADO too that’s important is they were very much involved with
welfare activism. And they were doing a lot of work with women who were
dealing with all these humiliations and problems with the welfare offices that were
developing with the war on poverty programs at that time period. And so, I think
through that it was always this defense, this community defense. So, LADO was
involved with that. I think again, even in the West Side, there’s the West Side
organization and even in uptown, which is the Young Patriots, where they come
out of -- which was [JOIN?] which was doing this welfare activism. And they
were also beginning to do a lot of antiracist work. So, I think when I look at it,
there’s these earlier organizations that are beginning to grapple with the solidarity
19
�politics. You can go ahead and come through. No, that’s no problem. That are
beginning to grapple with those issues of how do you develop a [00:28:00]
movement, a coalition across cultural nationalism or dealing with those issues.
But I don’t think it came together as forcefully as it did with the original Rainbow
Coalition. But they were beginning to do that. They were doing the community
defense work. They were interested in community control. They were doing
welfare politics.
JJ:
We were working together.
AL:
Yeah, people were working together. It’s not that one starts and the other one
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
JJ:
We had a coalition with them with LADO and then we had the coalition with the
Panthers.
AL:
Yeah, I see.
JJ:
So, we had -- they were involved with everything we did, and we were involved
with everything (inaudible).
AL:
I think that’s a good way to put it because it’s not like they stopped. I mean, at
one point join --
JJ:
Because the Young Lords had coalitions within the Puerto Rican community and
the Mexican community. And the Black Panther Party had coalitions in the
African American community. And the Young Patriots had coalitions in uptown
and other white organizations.
AL:
That’s an incredible way to think about it.
20
�JJ:
So, when we had the Rainbow Coalition, that put all these organizations together.
[00:29:00]
AL:
That’s a great way to think about it. I mean, when you think about that moment -I mean, this is why at that time period people were -- I think people figure out that
you have to build coalitions because you’re dealing with an enemy who doesn’t
want you to deal with -- you’re dealing with an enemy as a coalition, a real strong
coalition who doesn’t want you to have a similar very strong coalition. See what I
mean? So, I think at that point, it’s really important to know your enemy, as they
would say.
JJ:
It’s powerful. It was city wide. And that’s why the (inaudible) came out now.
Now, were you able to look at, in your dissertation, at some of the oppression?
AL:
Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, it’s really --
JJ:
Because (inaudible) right?
AL:
It’s a painful history to look at because I mean --
JJ:
Did you discover anything?
AL:
Yeah, I think probably one of the most -- and maybe people will argue against
this. [00:30:00] But I think that when you look at repression, it’s not just that
they’re violent towards people. It’s also the way that they use laws and the ways
that they introduce -- they criminalize. To criminalize people is also a very
important thing. So, if you look at -- the way that my dissertation is -- the way I
look at it is like the original Rainbow Coalition develops basically in early 1969,
sometime in January or February is as close as I’ve been able to kind of identify
when it comes together formally. I mean, people are working --
21
�JJ:
It was January.
AL:
People are kind of working together previously.
JJ:
The day after the police -- well, we got connected to Fred.
AL:
So, people know each other and they’re working together. But I think a more
formal thing comes together in January or February. And then, there’s a lot of
really important work particularly around the universities and the campuses,
organizing work. But if you realty look at -- what I think is if you look at when
[Manuel Ramos?] is killed, that’s really an important moment because I think -my interview with you was that there were still some Young Lords who were kind
of [00:31:00] maybe not all in yet at that point as far as becoming a political
organization. But when Manuel Ramos gets killed by a police officer in May, it
really kind of drives home the point that there’s this -- Fred Hampton says we live
in a sick society. And so, I think that really galvanizes a lot of people at that
point. And there’s really this amazing series of events after Manuel Ramos is
killed where the Black Panthers and the Young Patriots and a lot of other people,
SDS and other people really kind of come together at that point. Now, in terms of
repression, to me, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that after these series of events
and protests and marches and agitating -- you guys go to the police station. You
go to Bridgeport actually.
JJ:
(inaudible)
AL:
Yeah, you went to mayor -- I don’t think it’s a coincidence that after you go to
Mayor Daley’s neighborhood -- [00:32:00]
JJ:
We were like a (inaudible) we didn’t even know it was Mayor Daley’s house.
22
�AL:
Yeah, so I don’t think it’s a coincidence that after you went to Mayor Daley’s hood
that just days later he declares a war on gangs. It’s just days later that Mayor
Daley declares a war on gangs after all of this agitation.
JJ:
I didn’t know it was a few days after that.
AL:
Yeah, it was just days later. It’s literally a couple days --
JJ:
There was a major (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
AL:
And that’s what I call governmentality in my thing is when you have a conscious.
JJ:
The (inaudible) was right after the Manuel Ramos (inaudible).
AL:
Right after all the Manuel Ramos agitation and rage and anger about him being
killed. There’s all this activism and direct action. And to me, I don’t think it’s a
coincidence that Mayor Daley declares a war on gangs right after that. Now,
people say it was because all these gangs are getting together, and the
Blackstone Rangers thing. I don’t think so. I argue against that. [00:33:00] I
think it was because there was --
JJ:
No, we were already there.
AL:
Yeah, they were already doing all this stuff. And they didn’t have a revolutionary
political consciousness. But I think when all this this comes together with the
Panthers, I think that really ties together the Panthers, the Lords, and the Patriots
that much more solid with Manuel Ramos.
JJ:
All (inaudible) Blackstone Rangers, Jesse Jackson was working with the
Blackstone Rangers at that time. They developed some red berets.
AL:
That’s right.
23
�JJ:
And so, they were (inaudible) so the city was worried about them too. But you’re
right. We had just gone to Mayor Daley’s house to protest in front of his house.
AL:
That’s my argument. I mean, I’m not saying it’s mine because I’m arguing
against other academics who might say it. But I think it’s important. I think that
Manuel Ramos -- so, after they declared the war on gangs, you really see a more
systemic series of repressions. It kind of makes it okay for the police to run wild
on all these organizations. You really see an escalation of surveillance. You see
people getting killed. And what I write about -- I have a chapter [00:34:00] that’s
called “The Rainbow Summer of 1969” which is really where you have all this
heavy -- when you guys take over the church which is not too long after Manuel
Ramos is killed -- this heavy politics going on but also this heavy repression. And
that’s that relationship.
JJ:
The McCormick Seminary was taken over right after Manuel Ramos (inaudible).
AL:
Exactly, right after that. So, I basically --
JJ:
We were on the news that whole week.
AL:
So, I think the death of Manual Ramos kicks off the Rainbow summer of 1969.
But you had people getting killed. You had people getting arrested. Fred
Hampton goes to jail in early June. It’s just a lot of systemic repression. But I
think it’s connected to the war on gangs, which to me was a conscious effort to
contain a lot of this coalition building that was taking place.
JJ:
Do you think it was connected at that time was the war on gangs (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible).
24
�AL:
Yes, I think it’s a conscious -- that’s why I use the word governmentality to deal
with the ways that local agents of government think consciously about power and
how you maintain it. [00:35:00]
JJ:
So, what about Reverend Bruce Johnson was killed? What did you (inaudible)?
AL:
Yeah, I think that’s part of it. I think what you’re dealing with is that Reverend
Bruce Johnson was an important institutional leader in Lincoln Park who had
embraced the Young Lords. So, in other words, you have to eliminate that force
because Reverend Bruce Johnson provided a lot of legitimacy for the Young
Lords because a pastor, someone who’s running a church embraces this
organization --
JJ:
He’s the United Methodist --
AL:
Yeah, he’s the United Methodist minister.
JJ:
And he was a pastor of the church that was taken over. The congregation
opposed us, but he supported us.
AL:
That’s right. He’s a supporter. He’s an institutional leader. He’s got a lot of
legitimacy in the community. And if he’s supporting this organization, then they’re
connected, then the Young Lords is legitimate. But if you get rid of that, then it’s
like you have the Young Lords is kind of disconnected in a certain way. It’s kind
of [00:36:00] cutting a real main lifeline, again, of that interaction between the
community, the legitimacy that’s required.
JJ:
And he was found stabbed 17 times and his wife 19.
AL:
And we know how it is. You’re dealing with an enemy that will hire some sadistic
--
25
�JJ:
So, they tried to even make it look like he was stabbed with a knife, like “Oh a
Latino..” That’s what they were trying to say at that time. Like stereotyping.
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
AL:
Like a Latino. That’s an interesting point to make. That’s really important. If you
think about that -- that shows you how sadistic, how maniacal these people that
we’re dealing with, that they would even do that to make it look like that. And
that’s who you’re dealing with. And that’s what I try to say. Let’s not
underestimate or not think about who we’re dealing with. We’re dealing with
some of the most brutal people that have lived on the face of humanity.
JJ:
So we don’t have any proof, but it could’ve been part of the [oppression?], is that
what you’re saying? I don’t want to put words (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
[00:37:00]
AL:
The way I look at it is that I think the -- one of the aspects of those in power is
that it unleashed people to do a lot of crazy shit. You know what I mean? So,
nothing is out of bounds. So, even this heinous death of Bruce Johnson -- I
mean, they could have hired -- who knows who they were hiring. They could just
say, “Hey man, go off this dude.” You’re dealing with some sadistic people. So, I
don’t think --
JJ:
And in fact, there were a lot of letters being written to the bishops to kick him out
of their church.
AL:
Right. They might have wanted to do it, to get rid of him one way or another. But
if he stood in there and said, “No, I’m going to defend this community, I’m going
to defend this organization,” then they get violent. That’s the way -- that’s what
26
�you’re dealing with. So, to me, I think it’s deeply connected. I think it’s -- look,
we don’t need that. We know. We don’t need the direct records. You know
what I mean? Because we know. That’s what we call in academia epistemology.
We don’t need an empirical [00:38:00] proof. We don’t need a smoking gun to
know that that’s what went down. We know that’s what went down because
that’s the importance of politics. That’s what I try to write about in my
dissertation. If you don’t understand the politics and then make sense of why this
Reverend Bruce Johnson is going to endure that kind of death then it’s going to
make sense why Manuel Ramos was shot by an on duty police officer. We don’t
need to go through a legal process and do all this because we know the politics
of it, the class struggle, the political struggle. That’s what you need to know.
That’s what I think is important.
JJ:
So, what other -- is important that -- you mentioned the class (inaudible) what
were some other points there?
AL:
Yeah, I think the major thing to realize is that in December [00:40:00] there’s all
this tremendous repression. The best example -- or the worst example is the
assassination of Chairman Fred Hampton, who was one of the most powerful -- a
lot of people forget that he was one of the most powerful advocates and one of
the most eloquent advocates of the Rainbow Coalition, but also somebody who
was really good at blasting these cultural porkchop nationalists. He was one of
the best at -- if you read his speeches, you’ll crack up laughing because he’s just
that great. And so, he had a speech that was actually called “It’s a Class
27
�Struggle Goddammit.” That was the title of his speech. This was Fred Hampton.
So, again, he’s another person that, unfortunately, was -JJ:
We used to call him Chairman.
AL:
Chairman Fred Hampton, for sure. Chairman Fred Hampton was assassinated.
[Mark Clark?] was killed and a lot of other people were shot during that raid on
the apartment. But Chairman Fred Hampton -- after his death, one of the things
that I tried to write about [00:40:00] that I conclude with is that you really see the
reintroduction of these racial divisions in Chicago because a lot of people -- when
Chairman Fred Hampton was killed -- were of course angry and enraged that this
young, incredible leader would be shot up like that at four in the morning. But a
lot of people -- because again, there’s not necessarily that revolutionary political
consciousness that circulates in the communities -- they might have thought he
was killed because he was Black or he was killed because he was a Black
leader. But Chairman Fred Hampton was killed because he was a revolutionary
leader. He was an internationalist.
JJ:
We didn’t call him Chairman in (inaudible) was more relaxed.
AL:
Sure, I understand.
JJ:
But just out of respect, we knew he was the chairman of the (inaudible).
AL:
He was a revolutionary internationalist leader.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) He related very well to the room. When he was
in the room, you wouldn’t even know that he was the leader of the (inaudible) you
just [00:41:00] -- he wasn’t into titles.
28
�AL:
So, if you see what happens -- what I write about in my conclusion is that already
-- he’s killed in December. Already in January and February, there’s all these
events to commemorate him and there’s all these things. But you already see
people going back to that cultural nationalism, going back to that porkchop
nationalism right away.
JJ:
And in fact, that existed in that time of the Panthers and some of the Young Lords
and especially in the Young Patriots too.
AL:
But that becomes really intense.
JJ:
So, that was part of our work.
AL:
That was the work. That was the tactic to engage that. But you already get that
intensity. The one thing that I think we should think about more is that I think
they’re really conscious and understanding that whenever you inflict a lot of pain
on people like when they killed Fred Hampton, that oftentimes the first tendency
is to react through cultural nationalism and to react through that kind of rage
because you can say, “That’s [00:42:00] one of my people and they killed him
because he’s Latino or Puerto Rican or Black.” And I think they know that.
[aside] Go ahead man, actually I think someone might be in there, but- So, I
think they understand that very well, and I think that’s -- and they even [thrived on
this?]. One of the things that I try to show, the evidence I try to show is that –
JJ: [aside] There’s nobody in there.
AL: [aside] Oh sorry about that man. Sorry about that.
JJ: That’s alright
29
�AL: So, one of the things that I try to write about is after -- if you look at like what the
police are doing -- and again, this is why I study the police, the people that we’re
up against. What they’re doing is they’re actually antagonizing Black people in
Chicago. They’re tearing down posters of Fred Hampton. They’re shooting up
posters of Fred Hampton. They’re staging mock raids of -JJ:
Wait, this is --
AL:
After Fred Hampton’s killed. They want people to react that way. They want
people to react through cultural nationalism and racial consciousness. Instead of
class consciousness, they want [00:43:00] racial consciousness. So, they’re
antagonizing people to get them even more angry and more thinking that what it
was about was because he was a Black leader when in fact, he was a Black
leader but he was also a revolutionary internationalist leader. So, it’s a way that
you kind of silence that history. And now, all of the sudden, now you get
Chairman Fred Hampton is really -- he’s only thought about as like a Black
Panther or Black Panther leader or Black leader but in fact, he has the leader of
everybody. He was the leader of a lot of people, not just Black folks. So, I think
it’s important to see. So, the way that I think about it is you have the original
Rainbow Coalition undermines and disrupts what’s going on in Chicago for a
brief moment, for a few months, for a year maybe. But then, you have the
repression and then it gets kind of recuperated, the racial consciousness. The
way power gets recuperated -- and it’s the same thing -- if you look historically -if you look at the Haymarket riots or if you look at when Black people [00:44:00]
were resisting militantly during the 1919 race riots, when you look at different
30
�things, things get disrupted and then the class struggle -- the way it operates is
they fix it. They get -- we’re dealing with a smart enemy who learns. They
observe and participate too, so they learn and they develop new and
sophisticated ways to keep their power and make money. That’s what happens
after the -- they learned. They saw the original Rainbow Coalition, what it was.
The repressed it. If you can’t fix it nonviolently, they’ll fix it violently. And then,
they kind of come afterwards and then they develop a new way because they not
only want to fix it, they want to fix it for the future. They want to make sure that
no other coalition, no other revolutionary work is going to happen in the future.
So, they do all kinds of shit to kind of get people stuck in what I call paralysis to
keep them kind of politically paralyzed.
JJ:
That’s very important, what you just said about what they want to do. [00:45:00]
Their intentions -- and it’s very important how Fred -- how he opposed their
intention and why the Rainbow Coalition was important. You just said that Fred
was a leader, not only of Black people, but of all people of (inaudible) and that’s
what he was able to do, I mean, with his coalition was to unite more people that
were not necessarily from the African American community, like Latinos, like poor
whites and that. He was able to do that. And the enemy was doing the opposite.
Like you said, they didn’t want this coalition to ever exist again. And they came
with the cultural nationalism. So, this is very important what you just said. Fred
was a leader of all people.
AL:
One of the conclusions -- I’m hoping to maybe write about this more in the future,
look into it more. [00:46:00] So, it’s not really set in stone. But one of the things
31
�that we’ll come to is I think that we’re dealing with an enemy with an owning
class. I think that they know that the best way to undermine class struggle is to
attack Black folks or to attack Latinos or any other kind of racialized people, but
particularly I think Black people because I think that they know -- like I said, they
understand how people react and they know that in those reactions builds a lot of
divisions or maintains a lot of divisions. And I think they know that. I really do
believe that. I really do believe that. That’s one of the features, that’s one the
characteristics of the people that we’re up against. And that’s why to me it’s not
coincidence that you have all this kind of heinous violence and oppression that
Black people endure in the United States. It all maintains that racial
consciousness. And we’re dealing with an enemy that thrives upon people
maintaining a racial consciousness exclusively. [00:47:00] And what we’re trying
to say and I think what the original Rainbow Coalition tried to say -- it's not a
problem just dealing -- you can have a racial consciousness, but add the class
consciousness to the racial consciousness.
JJ:
And that was the beauty of (inaudible) the timing of that (inaudible) was people
were proud of who they were, but the people were also relaxed and able to
communicate with each other very well during that time. People were learning
from each other here just like they were learning internationally from each nation.
So, it was like that consciousness of internationalism. But with respect to
nationalism (inaudible). I mean, everybody was united because of that.
AL:
You could see it on a global level.
32
�JJ:
But today you can see the differences that racial -- and negative racial (inaudible)
and you can see it when you go to meetings.
AL:
That’s right. And I still think there’s all the -- I think there’s all the ideological
struggle that still exists. [00:48:00] People don’t really want to acknowledge it.
And that’s the other thing that we’ve got to deal with too because people really -they say they like the Panthers and they like the Young Lords, but really, they’re
practicing a different ideological politics than the Black Panthers and the Young
Lords.
JJ:
What do you mean by that?
AL:
Well, (audio cuts out) really study the Black Panthers and the Young Lords and
the ideology. This was ideology. This was ideological struggle. You can’t
escape it whether you want to or not. And they were practicing a particular
ideological struggle that came from a history of revolutionary activism on a global
level applied to Chicago. You see what I mean? And this was against certain
ideological tendencies. And we can name them. We can name them in terms of
Trotskyism. We can name them in terms of all these other leftist mistakes that
people were making, which is why you had SDS going the direction it went,
which is why you had all this struggle with all these other organizations.
JJ:
What do you mean going the direction --
AL:
Well, when they factionalized based upon all of these ideological struggles.
[00:49:00] They fell apart based on that.
JJ:
And we did too.
33
�AL:
And all the organizations (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) it happened
everywhere.
JJ:
That was a tool (inaudible)?
AL:
I think so.
JJ:
Or was it naturally and they (inaudible) took it over.
AL:
I think the way to think about it maybe is that during that time period there’s a -you have to give people a break. So, people are experimenting with a lot of
ideology. And it’s all right to do that. It’s all right to experiment and read books
and look at different -- the Cuban revolution, the Chinese revolution, look at
things like that. Again, what we know is that you can’t be a mechanical in terms
of ideology. You have to really come from what is going on in your particular
community, your particular location in build a struggle and build an ideology
based on the needs of your people in that particular area, which was [00:50:00]
Chicago or Lincoln Park or the West Side. And I think that’s why when the Black
Panthers or the Young Lords -- the ideology that y’all were using in driving that
and applying and learning from -- because you can make mistakes as long as
you learn from them and do it again -- was an ideology that came organically
from the conditions of Chicago. And I think when you have all the other people,
other activists come in from other areas or other places, whether it’s -- they might
be Young Lords but they might be from New York. They might not really
understand Chicago. Whenever you have that kind of situation and you try to
extrapolate and try to apply it to different places, it’s not going to work. This is
why when Dr. Martin Luther King came to Chicago in 1966, he wasn’t able to
34
�really create the kinds of changes he envisioned even though we might like those
visions because it wasn’t tailored to the particular conditions that existed in
Chicago. And that’s why I think also the original Rainbow Coalition is important
because it’s an alliance that developed from the particular conditions of Chicago,
which is a segregated racist ass city. And so, when you deal with [00:51:00]
ideological struggle, you’re oftentimes dealing with people who don’t have
organic knowledge of the city, of the neighborhoods. And we’re trying to apply
mechanically ideas of anarchism, Trotskyism, all kinds of shit, which really just
confuses the people and takes them in a direction that only our enemy really
thrives upon. Now, you don’t need to know -- again, this is one thing I write
about. You don’t need to be an expert on Marxism and Maoism to know the
class struggle. This is why I like what you all are talking about too. You only
have to look around and be really honest and sincere about what conditions are
going on in your neighborhood and in your family. All I’ve got to do is look at my
family and see what the hell is going on with this sick society. I don’t even need
to read a book. And that’s what I think is when we deal with the ideological
struggle, which I think people -- we’ve got to be real wary because, yes, we’ve
got to build unity, but we can’t be naïve that that ideological struggle [00:52:00]
still exists because there’s forces that are still pushing, peddling cultural
nationalism, peddling anarchism, peddling all kinds of shit to our people, whether
we want to like it or not. That’s another thing I like about this project. I taught me
that there’s a lot of things you might want to do, but whether you like it or not,
35
�there are some conditions you’ve got to deal with whether you want to like it or
not, you’ve got to deal with it.
JJ:
What are any final thoughts about your project?
AL:
Well, I mean, I just think that the thing that we -- one of the things that I try to
write about -- I hope it’s not taken in a disrespectful way -- is that there’s one way
-- there’s one thing that we’ve got to set the record straight because you talked
about a lot. People have misrepresented the history and misrepresented the
organizations and really distorted what work people did. So, it’s important that
there’s that set [00:53:00] the record straight kind of work that needs to be done.
Academics call it -- we need to recover the history and be accurate about it.
That’s very important. But that can’t be the only way that we -- the only reason
why this history is important. I think it offers political lessons that can be applied
to what’s going on today. So, a lot of times I think -- and this is why I think some
of the divisions occur in terms of the history because people want to get their
story and they want to set the record straight. And it’s really hard because
people have different experiences. So, there’s not just one Black Panther
experience or one Young Lord experience or one Young Patriot experience.
There’s actually a lot of different experiences. If you’re a woman or depending
upon what your background is, you’re going to have a different look at it. And
then, some people actually maybe weren’t as committed as other people. So,
there’s going to be a lot of those. There’s people that claim they were this and
claim they were that. [00:54:00] So, you have a lot of things. So, setting the
record straight is important. That work has to be done. And I think the
36
�movement people, the activists that were doing stuff back then need to tell their
story. And academics need to step out of the way or just be assistants or
whatever they can do to help them come forward. But at the same time, I think
there’s political lessons that need to be acknowledged and looked at and
discussed and then brought forward to today. And so, I hope that we do both of
that work. I hope that both of that work is done. In my introduction, I write about
this woman who says, “I love that history, but what happened?” And that’s what
I’m trying to say. We need to be able to explain what happened and be very
clear with the people about what we’re dealing with and who we’re dealing with.
So, that’s what I’ll say. All right, Cha-Cha.
END OF VIDEO FILE
37
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/41fb868f82a1902cf80ef0b0015fab25.mp4
98d928e98d8ad9912c8c50f0885e2c38
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
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2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Antonio López vídeo entrevista y biografía
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales
Relaciones raciales
Conflicto social
Identitad cultural
Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-65_Lopez_Antonio
Title
A name given to the resource
Antonio López video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
López, Antonio
Description
An account of the resource
Antonio López grew up in the Logan Square Neighborhood of Chicago and heard about the Young Lords early in life, as his parents are activists. Mr. López is also active in various projects and community organizations. He is of Mexican descent and Logan Square is currently a prime real estate target for developers, who continue to prey on Latinos and the poor, and are supported by city hall and their housing Master Plan. In fact it is not hard to locate many of these developers who readily finance machine loyalists and who have sat and still sit on the many city boards. Mr. López ‘s parents were connected to the land grant struggles in New Mexico that were being led by Reis López Tijerina. Mr. Tijerina was born on September 21, 1926 near Falls City, Texas. He is preacher who founded the Alianza Federal de Pueblos Libres (Federal Alliance of Land Grants) in New Mexico. He is widely credited as launching the early Chicano Civil Rights Movement, although Mr. Tijerina prefers the term “Indo Hispano Movement” because the word “Chicano” can also divide Mexicans. At the time of this oral history, Mr. López was completing his doctoral studies in the Department of History at the University of Texas, El Paso. His doctoral dissertation focuses on the Rainbow Coalition, which originally began with Chairman Fred Hampton and included the Young Patriots and Young Lords. Mr. López has voluntarily assisted the Young Lords on various projects beyond his dissertation.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexican Americans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions
Race relations
Social conflict
Cultural identity
Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-07-15
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7587fdbf9d46cb36f6032ae8956afe20.pdf
d9956def951f0c21d75d7f770e234820
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Martha López
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/30/2012
Biography and Description
English
Martha López grew up in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood and recalls the thriving Puerto Rican
community there, especially the youth groups, Caballeros de San Juan, and the Young Lords. She also
recalls being attacked “from the whites and the blacks” who lived in different parts of Old Town and
Lincoln Park. Chicago was a very segregated city in the 1950s and early 1960s and the neighborhood of
Lincoln Park was no different. Ms. López recalls that she had to throw a few swings and was not afraid of
fighting anyone male or female when she was confronted, but that she was never in a gang. Martha
attended Arnold Elementary and Waller High School. Her husband was a decorated military veteran.
Spanish
Martha López creció en el vecindario de Lincoln Park y recuerda como la comunidad puertorriqueña
prospera allí, especialmente en los jóvenes con grupos como Caballeros de San Juan y los Young Lords.
También recuerda como fue atacada “por los blancos y morenos” quien vivía en otras partes del “Old
Town” en Lincoln Park. Chicago era una ciudad muy segregado en los 1950 y 1960 y Lincoln Park no era
diferente. Señora López recuerda que no tenía miedo de pelear con nadie cuando se enfrentaron con
�ella, y tuvo que tirar unos golpes. Pero ella nunca fue parte de una ganga. López atendió Arnold
Elementary y luego Waller High school. Su esposo es un veterano miliario condecorado.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Go ahead and give me your name again.
MARTHA LOPEZ: Mi nombre es[00:00:02] Martha Lopez. (Spanish) [00:00:04 00:00:08] Martha [Martinez?].
JJ:
Okay, Martha Martinez. Martha, when did you first come to Chicago, or were you
born there?
ML:
I came in 1958.
JJ:
So you were born in Puerto Rico?
ML:
I was born in Puerto Rico.
JJ:
Where? What town are you from?
ML:
Arecibo.
JJ:
Arecibo? Okay. And you came in 1958.
ML:
Nineteen fifty-eight.
JJ:
Where did you live when you first came?
ML:
I lived at Dickens and Larrabee.
JJ:
Did you come by yourself, or were your brothers and sisters, your whole family,
or how did you come?
ML:
My mother and my brothers. My father was already here. He came like a year
before.
JJ:
And what was he doing? What kind of work was he doing?
ML:
He was a candy maker.
JJ:
Oh, a candy maker? Okay. [00:01:00] And so he saved money and brought the
family?
1
�ML:
Right.
JJ:
Now, did your mother come and work, or was she a housewife?
ML:
She was a housewife for a while. Then she worked at the candy packer called
Peerless Confection.
JJ:
Okay. Okay. You don’t know where that was at?
ML:
Yeah, right over here on Schubert, Schubert and Lakewood.
JJ:
And Lakewood?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Okay. And so she packed the candy boxes and that?
ML:
She packed candies, yeah. Boxes, cans, different ornaments that they had.
JJ:
Okay. Was that -- also your father worked there? Is he the one that got her the
job, or...?
ML:
Her brother.
JJ:
Her brother worked there.
ML:
Guillermo, the one you interviewed the other day, he got the job. He was
foreman there for many years.
JJ:
Okay. So that was your mother’s brother?
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
Guillermo. Okay, okay. So ’58. [00:02:00] So Guillermo was part of the church.
Was your mother part of the church too, or...?
ML:
No. My mother was from the Church of Christ. Well, my father was. Then my
mother converted later.
JJ:
Okay. From the United Church of Christ?
2
�ML:
No, just the Church of Christ.
JJ:
The Church of Christ, okay. How many other siblings -- how many brothers and
sisters did you have?
ML:
Four brothers. One passed.
JJ:
One passed. Any sisters, or any other sisters?
ML:
No sisters.
JJ:
Okay. So it was five altogether?
ML:
Five altogether.
JJ:
And you were the youngest, the oldest, or...?
ML:
I was the second. Second-oldest.
JJ:
So you came in 1958, and you came to Diversey, that area?
ML:
Larrabee and Dickens.
JJ:
Oh, Larrabee. I’m sorry. Okay. You went right into the Lincoln Park
neighborhood.
ML:
[00:03:00] Right.
JJ:
So how old were you then?
ML:
I was nine and a half.
JJ:
Okay. So you remember pretty good the neighborhood at nine and a half, no?
ML:
Well, yeah, then. Yeah. I remember. I still remember. It changed a lot, but I
remember.
JJ:
Okay. What was the main population, the main group of people that lived there?
ML:
The main group? It was all mixed.
JJ:
It was all mixed?
3
�ML:
It was all mixed.
JJ:
Okay. Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans, or no, or a few, or...?
ML:
A few. A few Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
At that time? Okay.
ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
How were the Puerto Ricans received?
ML:
Well, I didn’t notice anything, you know, around the neighborhood, because we
were mainly kept inside. You know, everything was new to us, so my father
really --
JJ:
Even the brothers? Your brothers, too?
ML:
[00:04:00] My brothers, too. Mm-hmm. We were little kids.
JJ:
So he kept you inside. Why would he keep you inside if there was no Puerto
Ricans outside, so there was no trouble you can get into, right?
ML:
Well, because we were kids, and we were new here, so we didn’t know, you
know. We didn’t know anything about the United States.
JJ:
So he was worried that you might get lost or something?
ML:
Get lost and, you know -- my father was really, you know -- he really took care of
us.
JJ:
What do you mean, he took care of you?
ML:
Well, he was always -- had us in, to keep us out of trouble. You know, they were
always taking good care of us, my mom and dad. They never left us alone or
anything. We were, what is it, twenty-four seven with them. They really
[00:05:00] didn’t let us run around when we got here. Later on, then we got a
4
�little loose and stuff, like playing in the alleys and stuff, baseball.
JJ:
In the alley, you played baseball?
ML:
My brothers did, and then I followed. And I roller skated (laughs) in the alley.
Learned how to roller skate.
JJ:
Okay. You mean with aluminum -- those steel roller skates?
ML:
Yes, mm-hmm.
JJ:
At that time. So you said you got a little loose. Was the alley a little dangerous,
or no?
ML:
Well, then it wasn’t too dangerous, but, you know, when you’re a kid, you don’t
know anything about danger. You just wanna play. And that’s what my brothers
did. They played, and I also played. But my mom and dad were the ones that
were always keeping an eye on us. They were always -- you know, we had to
tell them where we were at all times.
JJ:
Okay. [00:06:00] Your father was in the Church of Christ.
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
So did you all go to the service, or...?
ML:
Yes, he took us.
JJ:
What was that like in the service? Were there more Spanish people there, or...?
ML:
There were a group of about 50 people.
JJ:
About 50 people? But how about the Spanish?
ML:
Spanish? Everybody was Spanish.
JJ:
Oh, at that church?
ML:
Yeah. They have two groups. They had an English group and a Spanish group.
5
�And there was a American lady that -- she took us. So they taught us the word of
God.
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
It was pretty good.
JJ:
Did they have fellowship, like afterwards, or some kind of -- you know, where
they get together afterwards, or...?
ML:
No, we just went home.
JJ:
Just went home after?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Okay. [00:07:00] That’s what he was in Puerto Rico? He was part of that church
in Puerto Rico, or...?
ML:
No, uh-uh. I believe he was a Catholic, but I don’t remember seeing a church in
Puerto Rico.
JJ:
When you were younger, you didn’t go to the Catholic church?
ML:
No. I don’t remember going to church.
JJ:
Okay. So you came here. Who were your friends? Did you have any girl friends
at that time, at that age, or...?
ML:
In Puerto Rico?
JJ:
No, here, when you got here.
ML:
Here? Girl friends? No, it was mainly family.
JJ:
It was mainly family?
ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
Prima y[00:07:42], people like that, or...?
6
�ML:
Prima y Primos, [00:07:45 - 00:07:47].
JJ:
Okay, that you can remember. Well, you said something about Puerto Rico, so
did you have a lot of friends in Puerto Rico, or no?
ML:
Puerto Rico? I don’t remember, because I came here when I was nine and a
half.
JJ:
Okay, [00:08:00] so you don’t remember. Okay.
ML:
So I don’t remember having any close friends.
JJ:
Okay. So now you’re going to -- what school are you going to then, when you
came here?
ML:
I went to Lincoln School when I came here.
JJ:
Okay, Lincoln School.
ML:
On Geneva -- I believe it’s Geneva and Dickens. Not sure if it’s Dickens. But it
was on that neighborhood. Orchard? Orchard and Dickens, around there.
JJ:
Orchard and Dickens, around there, Lincoln School?
ML:
Orchard, Dickens -- there was Orchard, Dickens, and Geneva. I remember those
streets. I think it’s still there.
JJ:
Yeah, it’s by Grant Hospital. That’s where you’re --
ML:
Exactly. Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Okay. And Lincoln School -- there’s a school somewhere around there, yeah.
ML:
Yeah, that’s the same one. I think it’s -- I have the picture there.
JJ:
And what do you remember from there, from that school?
ML:
What do I remember? Well, I didn’t know any English, that’s for sure, so I had
[00:09:00] a battle tryin’ to -- you know, I had to try to learn the language. And
7
�fighting with the kids.
JJ:
Fighting with the kids? Why?
ML:
Because being Latina, we didn’t know that we had a language barrier, and I
guess they didn’t like us. We got beat up.
JJ:
What do you mean, you guess -- how can you say that? Why would you say
that?
ML:
Because they ran us home every day, and they used to beat my brothers up. I
was always up front waiting for them so we could get home safe.
JJ:
So your brothers had to run home from school?
ML:
Just practically every day, we had to run home, and have a little fight in between.
JJ:
Now, this wasn’t a gang. This was just a --
ML:
It wasn’t gangs. Kids beating up kids.
JJ:
Just kids beating [00:10:00] up kids at that time?
ML:
Yeah, just like now. Kids beat up kids.
JJ:
But this was white kids beating up on Spanish kids?
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
Mainly at that time?
ML:
At that time, yes.
JJ:
Because there were not really any Blacks in that area.
ML:
No, not really. Only when we lived --
JJ:
I’m just -- I’m asking, I don’t know.
ML:
Only when we lived by Cabrini-Green. When we lived there, then we went to a
school named Schiller, yeah.
8
�JJ:
So you went first there, and you moved further south to Cabrini-Green?
ML:
Exactly.
JJ:
Okay. So you went the other way, going south instead of north. So you went to
Schiller. Why would you go south? The [primary?] (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible)?
ML:
I don’t -- I think we went different places. Can I see those pictures? Because it’s
got different schools there.
JJ:
Right here?
ML:
Yeah. The top ones, uh-huh. ’Cause I have -- I think I have both schools here.
Nineteen fifty-nine, [00:11:00] I was at Lincoln School. Then 1960, I was at
Agassiz. So I came north.
JJ:
Oh, you went north.
ML:
North.
JJ:
A little north.
ML:
And then from there --
JJ:
So you were in Schiller first.
ML:
No, then from there we went to Schiller.
JJ:
Okay. So you went north, and then you went back the other way. ’Cause the
cheaper housing was the other way.
ML:
There were brand-new apartments, so that’s why we went there.
JJ:
Oh, you went to Schiller ’cause they were brand new.
ML:
Brand new, so we had a --
JJ:
Oh, okay. So actually, you were moving up. You were moving --
9
�ML:
We had a decent place to live, so we thought, but it wasn’t that decent.
JJ:
Why?
ML:
Because the neighborhood. It was all Blacks, and we didn’t know. It was like a
jungle to us.
JJ:
Okay. What do you mean, it was like a jungle to you?
ML:
Well, we had to fight in school also. We got ran -- they ran us home.
JJ:
So first you were being run home by the white groups.
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
[00:12:00] And now you’re being run home by the Black groups.
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
At that time. Okay.
ML:
So I had to arm myself with a pair of scissors, and a belt, and a needle, under -with the belt.
JJ:
Okay. Put the needle in the belt?
ML:
Right.
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
So they wouldn’t pick on me. But then I would laugh, because my girl friends
were getting run home, and then I -- I was walking, like, They’re not gonna touch
me, because I felt protected. I’m protecting myself, but I felt protected, because I
had a little scissors with me and a little needle and a belt. And then they left me
alone.
JJ:
When you pulled it out, they left you alone?
ML:
I didn’t. I never pulled it out.
10
�JJ:
Okay. You just felt stronger, tougher.
ML:
I felt protected, because I said, If anything happens, I’m not gonna let them get
the best of me, because they did beat me up at first. [00:13:00] I took a good
beating, and they made, like, a circle. And you would think it was a few kids. It
was like hundreds of kids kicking on you and everything, when you’re getting
beat up.
JJ:
And why do you think they were chasing you?
ML:
I didn’t think -- I think they didn’t like Hispanics.
JJ:
You think they didn’t like Hispanics?
ML:
I think it was a racial thing.
JJ:
Was it racial?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Because you were just new -- going back there, it was new, and --
ML:
Well, we were the only -- you know, the only Hispanics around, very few. All of
them got beat up. I don’t know if it was the difference because of the color or
what, but I knew we took a good beating, and my brothers also.
JJ:
Now, after a while, did that stop or slow down, or it just kept going?
ML:
No, my father left. He moved back to the neighborhood [00:14:00] on Lincoln
Avenue.
JJ:
He moved back to Lincoln Avenue?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
So how long were you there in Schiller?
ML:
About a year.
11
�JJ:
Just a year, and then you moved back?
ML:
Yeah, it was rough.
JJ:
So that Schiller’s more like Old Town. That was Old Town.
ML:
Old Town, yeah.
JJ:
Right. So at that time, there were very few Puerto Ricans in that -- living there.
ML:
They wouldn’t last. There was a little girl that got killed. They threw, like, a
gallon of milk, which was glass, and dropped it from a tall floor right onto her
head. They hit her head, ’cause she was hanging by the balcony, and they killed
her.
JJ:
A Spanish girl?
ML:
A Spanish girl. Young girl, like an eight or nine, ten-year-old.
JJ:
And they were just playing around and throwing -- other kids playing around and
threw it and hit her.
ML:
Somebody threw it from a top floor and [00:15:00] got her head. Don’t know if it
was kids or what.
JJ:
Okay. But so [a lot of the?] Puerto Ricans were being beat up at that time in that
area. That’s what you said. Then you moved back to Lincoln Avenue?
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
Now, when you moved back, were there more Spanish people living then? What
year was this?
ML:
Lincoln Avenue? Then we took a fight with the Orientals, with
Chinos.(overlapping dialogue) Yeah.
JJ:
With Orientals? With Chinos? They were living in that area?
12
�ML:
They were living across the street from us. And they had a cleaners. Their
parents were -- they had a cleaners, Sun Cleaners. That’s the name of the
cleaners. Then there was another. I said, Okay. So I had to protect my
brothers, so I made up, like, a little -- for protection, I picked up a bunch of bricks,
[00:16:00] and I lined them up, because I knew they said that they were gonna
beat my brothers up. So I lined them up. I had a bunch of bricks, maybe 10, 12
bricks, and when they came, I said, “You come over here, I’m gonna throw these
bricks at you.” You know? “And I’m gonna really give you a fight.” Because my
brothers, they didn’t know English, either, that much. But I was learning. Then
they didn’t come. I didn’t have to use the bricks. They got scared, I guess.
JJ:
So you think some of this had to do because they didn’t know English, or...?
ML:
Could be, because at that time, they didn’t care about the Hispanics learning. I
noticed that the Japanese and the Chinese in the school, in the classrooms, they
had preference, and they had the best grades, [00:17:00] and they teached them
the best -- like French, they didn’t let me take French, because I had a language
barrier, so I couldn’t take it. And other classes that I already knew, they didn’t let
us take those classes, because they didn’t want us to get further knowledge.
And I noticed that they had a lot of preference with Orientals.
JJ:
So you had that problem with the Orientals that lived across the street?
ML:
That’s it, just across the street.
JJ:
And you also felt they had preference in the schools.
ML:
In school, yes, I noticed that.
JJ:
So you mentioned whites, and then you mentioned Blacks, then you mentioned
13
�Orientals.
ML:
(laughs) Yeah.
JJ:
So was the neighborhood like that, divided by race and...?
ML:
The neighborhood?
JJ:
Was it divided at all by race, or no?
ML:
No.
JJ:
Or nationalities?
ML:
It wasn’t. It wasn’t [00:18:00] divided.
JJ:
Just certain buildings and...?
ML:
That just happened, yeah.
JJ:
That just happened.
ML:
That just happened.
JJ:
Okay. Okay. But I mean, Cabrini-Green was mainly Black, African American.
ML:
Oh, yeah.
JJ:
So that -- so Puerto Ricans living there were not welcome at that time.
ML:
No.
JJ:
Although in some -- there was one project that was Latin, right, that was Spanish,
or no?
ML:
It was scattered. Very few Spanish, very few.
JJ:
Okay, in 1959, around this.
ML:
Nineteen sixty, ’62 or ’63, around there.
JJ:
Okay. So at that time, there were not very many Puerto Ricans living there.
ML:
No. My uncle, they gave my uncle a beating, because he went to play dominoes,
14
�and he didn’t know. I call him my uncle, but he wasn’t really my uncle. But he
was in the family. He was an older -- past 60, maybe 70. [00:19:00] And he liked
to play dominoes, so he used to go with his little box of dominoes to play at my
house. One day, they gave him a beating, and then he didn’t last long after that.
JJ:
This was by Cabrini-Green?
ML:
By Cabrini-Green.
JJ:
So he came to visit you at Cabrini-Green.
ML:
To visit to play dominoes, because he --
JJ:
And they caught him outside?
ML:
They caught him around -- somewhere around the neighborhood, Larrabee and
Division.
JJ:
Okay. And they beat him up, and they killed him, or...?
ML:
Well, he didn’t die right away, but he took a beating, and then he didn’t last long
after that. I don’t know how long he lasted, but it wasn’t too long.
JJ:
Was he drinking or something, or that --
ML:
No, he didn’t drink. He just -- he liked coffee.
JJ:
So you think they just beat him up because he was Spanish, and he --
ML:
Yeah, in that neighborhood. He didn’t know. He wasn’t aware of his
surroundings. Yeah.
JJ:
Okay. So you had to be aware of your surroundings?
ML:
In that area? Yeah. That was near Cooley High, all that area.
JJ:
[00:20:00] What does that mean, to be aware of your surroundings? What does
that mean?
15
�ML:
Well, to know the neighborhood, to know what kind of difficulties you’re gonna
face about crime. You don’t know who’s gonna -- you always gotta watch your
back. You don’t know if they’re gonna beat you up or pull a knife, at that time. I
don’t think they had guns at that time. But -- or just take a beating. You have to
always watch out, at night, especially.
JJ:
So it has to do with your time of day, and it’s at nighttime?
ML:
Well, not really the time of day. It could have happened anytime. But mostly at
night. That’s when most crimes happen anyway.
JJ:
And you knew that. You [00:21:00] knew that from experience, or...?
ML:
Well, yeah, because my father kept us inside. He said, “Don’t you go out.” You
know, we were kids anyway, but he wasn’t even -- he didn’t even go outside after
dark, because one time, they threw a stone at him, too, and got him by the leg or
something, a stone or a rock, whatever, got him by the leg.
JJ:
So part of your growing up meant being trained how to act outside.
ML:
It was natural instinct. We didn’t get trained. We just knew. You know? It was
fear. Yeah, we didn’t really get any training.
JJ:
And so you felt that when you walked outside --
ML:
We just felt it. Mm-hmm.
JJ:
You felt that you had to walk around, watch out. Who’s this person and that
person?
ML:
Right.
JJ:
Okay. So that was part of growing up there in Old Town, in the Old Town.
ML:
Right. It was just natural instinct, you know. [00:22:00] You were the prey,
16
�period.
JJ:
Okay. So now you went to Schiller. You went back to by Schiller Street. But
then after that, where did you go after that?
ML:
Came back to Lincoln Avenue.
JJ:
And where did you go to school there?
ML:
Agassiz.
JJ:
So Agassiz.
ML:
And then I graduated at Agassiz.
JJ:
May I see that picture [and what’s in it?]? So that picture --
ML:
Is that Lincoln or Agassiz? Here’s Agassiz.
JJ:
Oh, that’s Agassiz right there? Okay. So this picture here is primarily -- it’s
mostly -- I see a few Latino faces, but it’s mostly a white school at that time?
ML:
Yes. Let’s see.
JJ:
Okay. So how was -- there are at least more -- you know, there’s a few Latinos
in there, right, [00:23:00] but it’s mostly white?
ML:
[Not?] many. You see that?
JJ:
You had many Latinos? (inaudible) all white.
ML:
There’s one, two -- there’s only two.
JJ:
Only two Latinos?
ML:
Two Latinos.
JJ:
And what are the rest? What nationality are the rest, do you think?
ML:
Well, they could be German. There’s a Oriental girl there. German, Irish.
Maybe German and Irish and --
17
�JJ:
So it was more mixed. That area was more mixed.
ML:
Yeah, more Europeans.
JJ:
More Europeans, but it was more mixed. But how did you feel?
ML:
In this class?
JJ:
Yeah.
ML:
[00:24:00] I felt -- because I was older than these kids, because they lowered my
grade.
JJ:
Oh, they lowered your grade? Why? Why did they do that?
ML:
Because of the language barrier, they lowered my grade. See the difference?
JJ:
Did they do that to other people, or...?
ML:
I was here. What’s -- two-A. Then they raised me -- see the same year? From
one year difference? Then they raised me to four-B.
JJ:
So they raised you. They didn’t lower you.
ML:
They didn’t lower me, because I was already -- I’m in four, but in Puerto Rico, I
was going to study fifth grade already, so they lowered me when I came here to
second grade.
JJ:
Oh, so you went from fifth grade to second grade.
ML:
To second grade.
JJ:
And then they moved you back up to fourth?
ML:
Fourth. So I’m still missing some years. I graduated late.
JJ:
So you kind of went jumping around different levels.
ML:
Different levels. So, you know.
JJ:
How did you feel about [00:25:00] that?
18
�ML:
Well, I felt like I didn’t belong there, ’cause I was older than those kids, so -- but I
still went. You know? I went to school every day. Then I had to change my
name, because they called me Maria instead of Marta. My name is Marta, and
they called Maria, and I never said -- I didn’t say present, because they didn’t call
my name. So one day, the teacher put a bunch of absentees. She said, “You’ve
been absent for this and that and that.” And I said, “What?” I said, “I’ve been
here.” She said, “I called your name, Maria, and you never answered.” I said,
“Because my name is not Maria. My name is Marta.” So she was gonna fail me
for some classes for that, and then I said, Well, only one thing to do. This is me
as a kid, [00:26:00] thinking. I’m gonna change my name. So instead of Marta, I
put Martha. I added an H. And then from then on, I wasn’t absent anymore.
And my name’s been Martha ever since.
JJ:
Okay. So you still changed your name, because they didn’t --
ML:
I changed it myself.
JJ:
Changed it to English. Okay. But they could relate to Martha, because that was
more English.
ML:
Right. Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Okay. You had to change your name. Okay. So they put you down in grade.
You felt kind of bad, because you were down in the grade. How old were you
around that time? Do you remember, or...?
ML:
How old?
JJ:
Yeah. Fifth grade, or --
ML:
When they lowered?
19
�JJ:
Yeah. Well, I mean, when you were in fifth grade, what was -- so --
ML:
When I was nine and a half, I was gonna study fifth grade in Puerto Rico, and
then I was brought here.
JJ:
Okay, so that was the same year, basically.
ML:
Nineteen [00:27:00] fifty-eight.
JJ:
Nineteen fifty-eight. Okay. So what do you remember of that area at that time,
and what was going on in that area? I mean, were you just staying at home, or
what were you doing?
ML:
Where I lived?
JJ:
Yeah.
ML:
Or where I went to school?
JJ:
Where you lived by Agassiz. What was that area like?
ML:
It was goo-- it was better.
JJ:
It was better?
ML:
We stayed home. Walked the streets a little bit. There was a playground. Used
to go up to the playground and play, on Wrightwood and Lincoln. It was real -you know, because I didn’t see a lot of conflicts there. It was, like, more free.
You were able to walk the streets and be more free.
JJ:
And your father, how did he feel, your father (inaudible)?
ML:
Oh, he was happy. Plus it was closer to [00:28:00] work.
JJ:
For his job?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
So he was pretty happy, and he felt that you were in a safe area.
20
�ML:
Safer area.
JJ:
So the neighborhood begins to change, right, in ’58 and ’59? That neighborhood
starts changing? Or when did it start changing more Puerto Rican?
ML:
There were more -- a lot more Latinos coming around that time around that area.
JJ:
So do you stay hanging around the playground, or...?
ML:
Oh, yeah.
JJ:
So that became like a center for you, the playground, or no?
ML:
A little, yeah, for recreation and that, playing baseball and stuff.
JJ:
Were more Puerto Rican -- where you played baseball?
ML:
And -- well, my brothers did.
JJ:
Was it league ball or softball?
ML:
No, no, just --
JJ:
Softball, the big softball?
ML:
Just among our -- you know, themselves, playing softball.
JJ:
Because they used to have [00:29:00] the big one, right, the 16-inch?
ML:
Right. But no league or anything.
JJ:
But everybody played the 16-inch ball (inaudible) --
ML:
Right.
JJ:
-- all your brothers and that? Were they part of a group or anything, your
brothers?
ML:
No, no. My brothers were not part of anything.
JJ:
But did they have a team?
ML:
No team. Just relatives got together and stuff and played.
21
�JJ:
And they played right there. Okay. But the neighborhood was white, and now
it’s changing more Spanish, no? Did that create any problems? Or it didn’t
change?
ML:
No, it was mixed. It was all mixed.
JJ:
It was always mixed. Okay. So you didn’t experience any problems with any
other races?
ML:
No.
JJ:
Except when you were younger, when you first got there. Then everybody got
along after --
ML:
Right.
JJ:
Okay. But did it increase in Spanish people, or no?
ML:
No, it was not too many Hispanics around this area.
JJ:
Okay. So it was always like that.
ML:
Yeah, very few. You could [00:30:00] count them. Yep.
JJ:
Okay. So how long did you stay in Agassiz?
ML:
I stayed there till I graduated, 1964.
JJ:
Okay, 1964? And then -- so what grades were you in? Fifth, sixth, seventh,
eighth?
ML:
I went from fourth to, what, was that eighth? Eighth grade.
JJ:
To eighth. Did you graduate in eighth, or did you go to Arnold --
ML:
No, I didn’t go to Arnold.
JJ:
-- Upper Grade Center? No? So you went from Agassiz to Waller?
ML:
Right.
22
�JJ:
Okay. So, okay. So now there was no problems at school? You got along very
well with everybody?
ML:
At Waller?
JJ:
In the Agassiz.
ML:
I got along, but we didn’t really make friends. I didn’t have friends. [00:31:00] My
friends were my brothers.
JJ:
Okay. Why didn’t you make friends with the other girls that were there?
ML:
Because we didn’t fit in.
JJ:
I don’t understand, because you were speaking English?
ML:
Because I’m Spanish. I’m trying to learn English. We’re Spanish. I didn’t have
any friends.
JJ:
Oh, you were trying to learn English then.
ML:
Right. But I didn’t have any friends. I don’t know if --
JJ:
Were you just not friendly, was that you, or...?
ML:
No, I guess I didn’t fit in. I don’t know, but we didn’t have any --
JJ:
Did you have Spanish friends? Well, you had your brothers.
ML:
My brothers. That’s it.
JJ:
Okay, you didn’t have -- okay. Because you were kept at home.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
I mean, is that -- am I putting words, or -- were you kept at home because you
were female, or --
ML:
No, my brothers, too.
JJ:
Oh, they were being kept at home.
23
�ML:
Oh, yeah.
JJ:
So that’s why you were -- because everybody was at home all the time. But you
had other relatives, though, that would visit?
ML:
Oh, yeah. I had uncles.
JJ:
Okay. So [00:32:00] you were closer to family and your brothers.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
Basically, you didn’t really make any outside friends.
ML:
Not many.
JJ:
Because your mother and father wanted you in the house.
ML:
Right. Well, they worked. You know, they labored. We went to bed early. They
put us to bed early, around 8:30, 8:00 or 9:00.
JJ:
Okay. And you babysat each other, right, or did you have a babysitter?
ML:
Well, my father took care of us. We didn’t babysit each other. He was always
there. It was either him or my mother. So, you know.
JJ:
So there was always somebody there.
ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
Okay. And you stayed mostly at your home while you were at Agassiz. Okay.
So now you’re in Waller, right? How far did you go to Waller?
ML:
Well, it was about a mile.
JJ:
Okay. No, I mean how far in years?
ML:
Twelfth grade.
JJ:
You graduated from Waller? Okay. [00:33:00] Okay. Well, tell me about Waller.
ML:
I don’t have the pictures, though. I don’t know what happened to them. I lost
24
�them.
JJ:
You know, maybe just tell me what --
ML:
Waller?
JJ:
-- the first day you went to --
ML:
Another merry-go-round. (laughter) Then we had a lot of Latinos going in there.
I was a freshy.
JJ:
Now, you had to take the bus to get there, right?
ML:
Huh?
JJ:
You had to take the bus?
ML:
Took the bus, and sometimes I walked.
JJ:
Okay. But it was a merry-go-round, another merry-go-round?
ML:
That was another -- then they had the whites, the Blacks, and the Latinos. But
then they had the Latinos that were in higher grades, so they would go against
the ones that were in lower grades, like the freshies, and throw pennies, and --
JJ:
What do you mean, throw pennies? What do you mean?
ML:
Throw pennies at the freshies.
JJ:
Oh, just throw them at you.
ML:
Yeah, because you’re a freshy.
JJ:
So they hit the freshies with the pennies?
ML:
Right. [00:34:00] And then they didn’t like them. They didn’t welcome the
freshies, because, you know, we were new, and we were dumb, and stuff. We
didn’t know what’s going on. So then we had to form our own little group.
JJ:
So Latinos throwing at other Latinos.
25
�ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
So that means there were a lot of Latinos there --
ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
-- at Waller. Okay. But, I mean, it was a mixed school, but there were a lot of
Latinos.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
What -- Puerto Rican --
ML:
The girls with the different hairdos and stuff.
JJ:
Puerto Rican, Mexican, what, you know?
ML:
No, more Puerto Rican.
JJ:
At that time? Okay.
ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
All right. And you said the girls with the what?
ML:
Different hairdos and stuff.
JJ:
What kind of hairdos? What kind? What do you mean?
ML:
Teasing their hair. Teased-up hair.
JJ:
Beehives? None of that? Is that what they call it?
ML:
I don’t know what they call them, but --
JJ:
When it’s round or something?
ML:
Yeah, real -- I don’t know. I guess they got teased hair or something.
JJ:
Teased hair? [00:35:00] Okay. Because this was the sixties, so they were
teasing their hair.
ML:
Yeah, teased their hair.
26
�JJ:
Afros, like, or something like that, or...?
ML:
No, no afros.
JJ:
Okay, not at that time. You’re talking about what year (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible)?
ML:
Oh, that’s ’64.
JJ:
In ’64, you were in Waller?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
So they’d throw pennies at us. And then they had boyfriends. They were after
their guy, keeping an eye on their guys and stuff. So anyway --
JJ:
And the freshies were after their guys, too.
ML:
(laughter) I guess so. Anyway, we had to form our own group of friends.
JJ:
What was your group?
ML:
No, just friends, because we were freshies, so we’d form our own groups and
stuff.
JJ:
So did you form your group according to the neighborhood you came from, or
just --
ML:
No, just in the -- that was the first time ever --
JJ:
The class, or the classroom you were in?
ML:
-- I ever started a group. [00:36:00] No, just -- no, we started our little group
together, you know, hanging out, friends hanging around.
JJ:
Who was in your group? Do you remember?
ML:
Just my friend [Shelley?], [Daisy?], [Gladys?]. We had our own -- [Maria?]. Girls
27
�-- you know, we just got together and we hung around together, because don’t
forget, there was the Black girls, too. And they would pull our hairs. They were
jealous and stuff, so they’d pull our hairs and start something.
JJ:
So they had a group, too, then, the Black girls.
ML:
The Blacks?
JJ:
Had a group too.
ML:
Of course. They were together.
JJ:
So were the groups based on -- were they mostly, like, nationality? Like, they
would have Puerto Rican girls, and then they had Black girls, and Irish girls,
Italian girls? Was it like that, or...?
ML:
I don’t know. What I noticed [00:37:00] is that we had our group, and the Blacks,
I don’t know what kind of group --
JJ:
What was your group? Were they mostly Puerto Rican, you group?
ML:
Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
All Puerto Ricans?
ML:
All Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
That’s what I mean. So you had all Puerto Ricans and all Blacks.
ML:
Right. But it wasn’t because we were fighting the Blacks. We were fighting our
own nationality. (laughs)
JJ:
You were fighting your own nationality.
ML:
Our own nationality.
JJ:
Other Puerto Rican groups?
ML:
Other Puerto Ricans, because of the grades, higher grades, lower grades.
28
�JJ:
So the freshies were fighting the seniors, and --
ML:
Not really fighting. Just, you know.
JJ:
Harassing?
ML:
Harassing and stuff, yeah.
JJ:
And one of the things was throwing pennies. And what else? What (inaudible)?
ML:
That’s all. Throwing pennies and saying words, like, “You’re a dummy,” and
stuff. Nothing really, really bad, you know.
JJ:
Nothing really bad? Okay. Now --
ML:
But I never got into a fight or anything at school [00:38:00] at Waller.
JJ:
Were there a lot of these little groups, or a few of them, or not that many?
ML:
I don’t remember if there was any. All I remember is our group. You know, who
you hung around with. Like all the other girls, they were, like -- they say the word
orgullosa.
JJ:
Okay, orgullosa.
ML:
How would you say that? Too much pride?
JJ:
Proud? Too much pride?
ML:
Yeah. Orgullosa to go against, you know, the way you were.
JJ:
Now you were already speaking English pretty good, though, right?
ML:
Well, somewhat.
JJ:
Somewhat. Did some people have accents, or did you notice that, or no?
ML:
Didn’t notice much the accents, because when you’re -- you know, you’re a kid.
You pick it up pretty fast, and you start [00:39:00] speaking the language.
JJ:
Did your parents have accents?
29
�ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
They had accents? Okay.
ML:
They didn’t speak much.
JJ:
But they understood. So they didn’t speak much English, but they understood it.
ML:
Well, I don’t think they understood, either.
JJ:
They didn’t understand much? (laughter)
ML:
No, no. They didn’t understand that much.
JJ:
But they acted like they understood [so they didn’t know?]?
ML:
No. They knew that they didn’t know the language. They knew.
JJ:
So you were like their translator, or...?
ML:
Oh, no. My mother went to school, and she took a couple of classes. I don’t
remember my father going, but my mother did. English classes.
JJ:
Okay, she took some English classes. Okay. So this is 1964. You’re moving up
in Waller. How is Waller changing during that time? What do you remember at
Waller? [00:40:00] How was your studying and stuff? Did you like it, or what do
you remember?
ML:
I liked it, but like I said, keeping up with the grades and that wasn’t that easy.
JJ:
Were there just too much things to do, or that people didn’t want to focus on
school, or...?
ML:
Well, I usually cut a lot of classes, because I didn’t feel like I belonged there,
either. I used to cut, especially the study periods. That’s what I used to cut. I
don’t know if you remember Mr. [Scoltise?]? He used to be there, a teacher.
JJ:
I remember study group, but I don’t remember --
30
�ML:
Study group. Yeah, we liked that one, because we used to cut, and he didn’t
really pay attention to -- [00:41:00] he didn’t take --
JJ:
Attendance?
ML:
-- any -- what do you call?
JJ:
Attendance?
ML:
Attendance. So we used to cut.
JJ:
And so you cut. Where did you go to?
ML:
Oh, we used to go by Lincoln Park, by the canoes, where they -- those boats, like
in the summertime.
JJ:
By the (inaudible)?
ML:
Yeah. Get in those boats, and then get out the little boat, and go onto that little
island. Yeah. Once in a while. We didn’t do that often. But when it got warm,
that’s where we were.
JJ:
Yeah, ’cause the park is right there. Lincoln Park is right there. Okay. What
about -- weren’t there neighborhood groups at that time, in ’64, ’65? Weren’t
there, like, the Black Angels and the --
ML:
We didn’t see any groups.
JJ:
-- the (inaudible) [Aces?], or [your Queens?]? You didn’t see any of those?
ML:
We didn’t see any groups. All I remember is seeing the sweaters.
JJ:
[00:42:00] Oh, so you did see the sweaters.
ML:
That they wore. And then it was announced. Whenever there was gonna be a
fight or something, it was announced, and I just ran and took the bus home.
JJ:
What do you mean it was announced?
31
�ML:
They announced -- somehow we knew that they were gonna have a gang fight. I
don’t know.
JJ:
Is this kind of word of mouth?
ML:
Word of mouth.
JJ:
But everybody knew, all the Latinos.
ML:
Right. We were aware.
JJ:
Were Latinos fighting Latinos, or what was --?
ML:
No, they were not fighting Latinos. I think they were fighting other gangs.
JJ:
Other gangs that were around at the time?
ML:
Uh-huh. That came from different areas.
JJ:
To that school to fight?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
And you would know it, and right away, you would get on the bus and --
ML:
Right.
JJ:
So there was another reason to cut school, then, no?
ML:
To cut school? No, not really.
JJ:
Okay. So you didn’t -- you weren’t --
ML:
No. I went to the classes. Just some classes that I cut, you know, [00:43:00] like
the study periods. All the other classes I made.
JJ:
So instead of hanging around after school, when you knew there was a gang
fight, you would hurry up and get on the bus.
ML:
Hurry up and get out.
JJ:
And get outta there, ’cause -- would people get cut up, or beat up, or --
32
�ML:
Never know. I never really been in between the gang, but I guess there would be
blood.
JJ:
Was there blood? I mean, I’m just --
ML:
I’ve never seen it.
JJ:
Okay. You never saw it.
ML:
No.
JJ:
But people didn’t want to be around when there was a gang fight.
ML:
Oh, no. Who wants to be around when there’s fighting, you know?
JJ:
Right.
ML:
We took off.
JJ:
You said you saw the sweater. What color sweaters?
ML:
I think I remember like a purple.
JJ:
A purple?
ML:
Purple.
JJ:
Black and purple? That was the Young Lords.
ML:
Could be.
JJ:
And then you had black and pink was the (inaudible).
ML:
Black and pink, yeah.
JJ:
But you remember the black and purple ones?
ML:
Mm-hmm. And what el-- black and [00:44:00] pink?
JJ:
Black and pink was the Imperial Gangsters. Then you had black and white was
the Eagles.
ML:
Eagles. I remember vaguely, vaguely, you know. I remember the sweaters,
33
�though.
JJ:
Because these people used to throw dances, too. (inaudible) dances?
ML:
No, I wasn’t allowed.
JJ:
You weren’t allowed to go to the dance? Did you go to any school dances?
ML:
Never. My father wouldn’t let us.
JJ:
You couldn’t ever go to the dance?
ML:
No.
JJ:
Well, because of the church he belonged to, right? They didn’t believe in
dancing?
ML:
No, not necessarily. It’s just that he knew that it wasn’t good -- you know, the
area wasn’t that good, so we never went.
JJ:
So what kind of stuff did you do for recreation?
ML:
Oh, we watched a lot of television, played dominoes. My father had family come
over. Just mainly with the family.
JJ:
Mainly with the family? And was there a lot of family? Did you have a lot of
family?
ML:
Oh, yeah. We had a lot of family. [00:45:00] Uncles -- mainly uncles. Aunts,
uncles, but mainly uncles that came over. My mom’s brothers, they usually come
over, and she used to cook. I used to help her. They would come and visit and
hang out, play a little domino, drink a little cup of coffee or whatever. At that
time, nobody drank. It was mainly coffee.
JJ:
So just mainly coffee then?
ML:
Yeah.
34
�JJ:
Your family didn’t drink?
ML:
Now you go to somebody’s house, and they ask you, “Do you want a drink?”
Well, mainly in the sixties -- I mean, in the seventies, instead of giving you coffee,
they started giving you drink. “You want a drink?” You know, liquor.
JJ:
But before that, it was just coffee.
ML:
Before, it was, like, coffee.
JJ:
And stuff like that.
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
By the seventies we had -- that’s where everybody started, like, [00:46:00]
boozing, you know, and drinking.
JJ:
What do you mean? Why was that? Why did they start boozing at that time in
the seventies?
ML:
Well, I guess everybody -- you know, they were not kids anymore, all the kids
that came from Puerto Rico. They were teenagers and stuff, or not teenage.
They were almost past teenagers. So they were free to drink, so then they were
drinking. And not only that, there was marijuana. They were doing marijuana
and booze, and who knows what else. A lot of dope.
JJ:
A lot of that dope at that time?
ML:
Yeah, but mainly marijuana.
JJ:
Because that was the late sixties. You’re talking about the late sixties?
ML:
Well, and the beginning of the seventies. Seventies. I don’t know if you
remember the hippie era. You remember that?
35
�JJ:
Right. So that was the hippie era?
ML:
That was towards the end of [00:47:00] the sixties, about ’67. Sixty-six, ’67,
around there. Hippie era. That’s when the hippie era came, and then the whites
turned hippie. Then they started drafting people, so they draft the Blacks and
they draft the Puerto Ricans, and the whites stayed behind, and they turned
hippie. Right? So they had to go -- the Latinos had to go and the Blacks went,
and the lower-class whites went, like the hillbillies. But not the ones that -- not
the whites. They went hippie. And I remember that era. I don’t know if you ever
-- did you ever go to Lincoln Park when that was full of people, full of hippies?
JJ:
The demonstrations, you mean, that they had?
ML:
[00:48:00] Yeah. Not only demonstration. Everybody was a hippie, and they
have the long hair. I believe they did that to keep from going to the war, which
was Vietnam coming up.
JJ:
To get away from the war?
ML:
To get away. I think they were told to do stuff like that to keep going from the
war, the whites. Mm-hmm.
JJ:
So that was the era of the hippies, the anti-war --
ML:
That’s when they turned hippie.
JJ:
-- anti-war movement that they had, or --
ML:
Right.
JJ:
Okay. And that affected the neighborhood too?
ML:
No, it didn’t. Well, no, not really. You know? Just when I was curious and I just
went to the -- they were quiet people. They didn’t want to go to the war. That’s
36
�one thing that kept them from going. But they were quiet, and they didn’t bother
anybody. I didn’t see any fights or anything. They were kinda [00:49:00] mellow,
because they were full of grass, you know?
JJ:
So there was a lot of grass going around.
ML:
Oh, in the park, all over.
JJ:
Did you ever smoke any grass?
ML:
No. Thank God. Knock on wood. (Spanish) [00:49:15].
JJ:
She doesn’t want to admit it, huh? You don’t --
ML:
Huh?
JJ:
You don’t want to admit it? Is that what he’s asking?
ML:
No, because he’s looking over here. (laughter) No, we didn’t. No. My brothers,
they did. I think my brother [Nicky?] got a hold of it.
JJ:
But a lot of the women that you knew did not -- they weren’t doing that.
ML:
No. They didn’t smoke that.
JJ:
But the guys did.
ML:
I think it was more of a guy thing.
JJ:
At that time?
ML:
At that time. My husband, he didn’t like it either. He’d rather drink. I like the way
-- (Spanish) [00:49:58] laughing over here, [00:50:00] though. Crack me up. No,
because, you know, my father -- we didn’t even drink in our house.
JJ:
Okay. He didn’t drink either?
ML:
My father? No. He did that when he was young.
JJ:
When he was young? Okay.
37
�ML:
In Puerto Rico. But it wasn’t for him, so --
JJ:
But did he get in trouble with it, or he just decided not to drink? You know, some
people they drink a lot, and they quit, and then they never drink again. Was that
--
ML:
No, he just -- you know, he had five of us to raise, so he came over here, and
boozing wasn’t gonna be for him, so that’s when he looked into the religion. But
alcohol did not go well with him. He would go, like, crazy when he drank.
JJ:
Oh, okay. So that’s why -- so that was the reason that he stopped?
ML:
Right. But he wasn’t even really, really an alcoholic.
JJ:
He wasn’t an alcoholic. He just said it didn’t go well.
ML:
It didn’t go well with him.
JJ:
Okay. [00:51:00] And he told you that that’s why he stopped?
ML:
No, he just didn’t pick it up anymore. He went to church, took us to church.
JJ:
He was in the church, so you never really saw him drinking a lot.
ML:
No. He couldn’t tolerate it.
JJ:
Okay. But your brothers, they liked it a little bit?
ML:
Oh, yeah. Especially -- yeah. They all did. They all drank. I drank myself, but I
didn’t really care for it either. But, you know, everywhere you went was, “You
want a drink? You want this?” You know? A lot of little parties going on. And
there was booze.
JJ:
In people’s houses, or -- the parties?
ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
So I mean, like, were you going to the baptisms and the quinceañera?
38
�ML:
No, this was, like, teenage -- you know, not -- we were past teenagers, but like
my brothers, they had their own apartments, and you’d go over there and hang
out. [00:52:00] Bring some friends, hang out, and they’d be drinking and stuff.
Little parties at home. They would come to my place.
JJ:
So this was in the seventies, or...?
ML:
Seventies, yeah.
JJ:
Okay. So they would come to your place, and you would have parties in there?
ML:
Mm-hmm, we had parties there.
JJ:
So you had to drink a little bit for a little bit.
ML:
Yeah, I did.
JJ:
Okay, you did drink?
ML:
Yeah, and my husband, he loved drinking.
JJ:
Beer, or...?
ML:
He liked beer.
JJ:
Okay. And you drank beer? That was it?
ML:
A little bit. I couldn’t tolerate it much either. But I did drink for a little while.
JJ:
But nothing heavy.
ML:
But then when I saw that it wasn’t for me, and I said, Nah, this is not for me, so I
said, Forget it. So I don’t drink.
JJ:
Okay. So now when did you get married?
ML:
I got married in 1972.
JJ:
Okay, so it was early, ’72? So were you finished with high school by then?
[00:53:00 You had finished high school already.
39
�ML:
Yes. I finished high school in 1968.
JJ:
And where were you working at?
ML:
I was working at Saint Joseph Hospital.
JJ:
Oh, yeah, that’s right. Okay.
ML:
I worked there for about nine and a half years.
JJ:
Did you have any children?
ML:
No children.
JJ:
No children? Okay. By choice, or --
ML:
Couldn’t have any children. No, I couldn’t have them, and then my husband
couldn’t have them either, because they sprayed the veterans with that Agent
Orange, so couldn’t have ’em, so just stopped trying.
JJ:
Is that what they told him, that because of the Agent Orange, you --
ML:
Oh, no. They never admitted that he was sprayed. But they sprayed the
veterans with that chemical. The government never admits to that, but they did.
And that really destroyed a lot of soldiers. They’re gettin’ [00:54:00] destroyed
right now. They get a lot of different cancers, different forms of diseases, mainly
cancers. But my husband got one called scleroderma, and that destroyed him. It
destroys the whole immune system. And that’s what he died from. He caught
lupus, hypertension of the lungs, a lot of different diseases, diabetes, thyroid
problem, everything. Then at the end, it was renal failure. And it’s all due to that
spray that they sprayed over there.
JJ:
That Agent Orange.
ML:
It’s Agent Orange, but the real word is -- the chemical [00:55:00] word is dioxin.
40
�Plus other stuff that they put these soldiers through that they never say. They
get injected and everything [if he didn’t?] fight. That’s why when they come back,
they get that shell shock, and they want to kill somebody. So that was another
era where I had a struggle with my husband.
JJ:
What do you mean?
ML:
Well, because he was -- he used to get, like, posttraumatic from the army,
flashbacks. So I had to be aware at all times what was gonna happen, if he was
gonna pick up a gun or somethin’, or shoot me, or whatever, which I never did
see any guns, but he did mention seven guns that he had in the house or hiding
somewhere. But I never saw them. But then towards the end, when he passed,
it wasn’t seven guns. It was seven [00:56:00] medals that he had earned from
the army, but never a gun. Yeah. It’s sad, but that’s what they did to those poor
men. Yep.
JJ:
So it affected -- the war affected him. But you were married before he went to
the war, or...?
ML:
No.
JJ:
It was after he came back.
ML:
He came back 1969. Seventy-two, we got married.
JJ:
Then in ’72, you got married? Did you know him before he went?
ML:
No.
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
It was a blind date. Met him on a blind date. And what a blind date. (laughter)
Oh, yeah.
41
�JJ:
[00:57:00] So you stayed married to him for how long?
ML:
Almost 36 years.
JJ:
That’s good. Congratulations.
ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
So you never were married before or anything like that?
ML:
No.
JJ:
Your only marriage was to him. Okay.
ML:
Yep.
JJ:
And you said he recently passed away, you said?
ML:
He passed, what, 2008. Two-oh-eight. That’s when he passed. October 25,
2008.
JJ:
October 25th? Was his family from Arecibo, too, or no?
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
Oh, so even though you didn’t meet before, did your family know their family,
or...?
ML:
No. Different sections.
JJ:
Of Arecibo.
ML:
Different barrios, uh-huh.
JJ:
[00:58:00] Actually, my sister lives in Camuy, which is not too far from there.
ML:
From Arecibo?
JJ:
From Camuy, yeah, it’s not too far from Arecibo. I mean, a little further west.
ML:
I wouldn’t know, because I just went back only a couple of times to Puerto Rico,
two or three times.
42
�JJ:
Okay. So you were born there, and you came when -- how old were you? Nine,
you said?
ML:
Nine and a half.
JJ:
And then you went back when?
ML:
I went back in the eighties for my father and mother. They moved back over
there in 1978, I believe.
JJ:
Okay. And for how long were you there?
ML:
They were there till about 1995, around there.
JJ:
Oh, so, like, 10 years.
ML:
They stayed a long time there.
JJ:
And you stayed with them?
ML:
Oh, no. I was living here.
JJ:
So you came back. You just went with them for --
ML:
I just went to visit.
JJ:
Okay, and then you came back?
ML:
Came back, and I went back and forth a couple of more times.
JJ:
[00:59:00] Okay. Each time was like a couple weeks at a time?
ML:
I took a good vacation for two and a half month to Puerto Rico, and one week to
Florida. I went with my grandmother.
JJ:
Okay. So while your parents were there, you were with your grandmother over
here?
ML:
No, no, I was living with my husband.
JJ:
Okay.
43
�ML:
Yeah. I was living with him. And I took off for two and a half month.
JJ:
Okay. So you really -- so your community’s more here than over there, or no? I
mean, you feel more comfortable here than there, than in Puerto Rico, or how --
ML:
Yes, because in Puerto Rico, you know, I don’t know much about Puerto Rico,
and I don’t drive over there, so traveling -- you know, getting back and forth
would be a little hard. And being a woman isn’t easy either.
JJ:
No, [01:00:00] [not in Puerto Rico?].
ML:
No. So I feel better over here.
JJ:
You feel better over here?
ML:
Yeah, more safety.
JJ:
And this neighborhood hasn’t really changed that much, right?
ML:
This neighborhood? Yeah. There’s a lot of yuppies.
JJ:
Now?
ML:
Okay, that moved over here.
JJ:
But I mean, it was always mixed. I mean, you know, right?
ML:
It’s mostly whites.
JJ:
Mostly whites?
ML:
Mostly whites.
JJ:
So I mean, what I’m saying is, you don’t really -- it hasn’t really changed that
much for you at that time when it was mixed.
ML:
Oh, no, it’s the same thing, just about.
JJ:
So that’s why you feel more at home where you’re living. Do you still live in the
area, or no?
44
�ML:
Yeah, I live around -- it’s called North Center area, but it’s Lakeview. It’s North
Center. Yeah, [01:01:00] I know the areas and stuff. But --
JJ:
But these people you grew up with, they’re not around?
ML:
They’re not around. They’re all gone.
JJ:
So how do you feel about that? ’Cause that’s, like, your whole community that’s
gone.
ML:
I don’t know, because I was usually on my own anyway. You know? So --
JJ:
So it didn’t affect you?
ML:
It doesn’t affect me. You have to learn to survive and make it on your own.
JJ:
But okay, it doesn’t affect you personally, but what about -- how do you feel that
Puerto Ricans were kicked out of that whole area?
ML:
I never knew they were kicked out.
JJ:
Oh, they weren’t kicked out? Okay.
ML:
I don’t think so. They just moved on. Moved on with their lives.
JJ:
Okay. Okay. [01:02:00] Okay. I’m putting words (laughs) in your mouth. So
they weren’t kicked out. They just moved on.
ML:
Yeah, I don’t think so. You know? They just went on, you know, different phases
of life. You have to face it, you know? I don’t think the Puerto Ricans were ever
kicked out. You know?
JJ:
Yeah, yeah. So why do you think the neighborhood changed? I mean, you just
think that they just moved on, or...?
ML:
Why’d the neighborhood change? I think it changed for the better. You don’t see
much -- you know, people fighting around here, so it changed for the better.
45
�JJ:
And there was a lot of fighting at that time?
ML:
Not even around here, no, not too much. Mainly over --
JJ:
At Waller?
ML:
Waller, but not around here.
JJ:
So it’s good that it changed. Now there’s no more fights at Waller and that?
ML:
Well, I don’t know if they have fights there, [01:03:00] ’cause I haven’t been there
since when? It’s called Lincoln Park School now.
JJ:
Right, Lincoln Park High.
ML:
I don’t know if they’re fighting, but who knows what’s going on in school now?
JJ:
So what you feel is basically that Puerto Ricans have lifted themselves up in
Chicago?
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
Okay. And how is that? Is that -- how have they done that?
ML:
Well, they bettered themselves.
JJ:
I mean, what sort of things did they do to better themselves?
ML:
Well, the parents work hard, that’s for sure, and then they gave knowledge to
their kids. Whatever knowledge they acquired is what helped them move
forward.
JJ:
Okay. So it was the parents that worked hard that had a --
ML:
It was the parents that worked hard that put us --
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
To better educate us.
JJ:
So the Puerto Rican families that you knew were hard workers --
46
�ML:
[01:04:00] Yes.
JJ:
-- and they pushed their kids, and their kids moved on --
ML: Moved on with their lives -JJ:
-- and they improved themselves.
ML:
-- and got educated.
JJ:
Okay. There was no discrimination to you whatsoever?
ML:
Discrimination with --?
JJ:
Puerto Ricans at all, or other poor people, or no?
ML:
The only discrimination was that, you know, when we went to school and stuff.
JJ:
When you were younger, just at school and stuff like that.
ML:
School.
JJ:
Okay. So that’s really -- the discrimination was that.
ML:
That’s it. But there’s always discrimination. There’s a lot of people that, you
know, they put the Puerto Ricans down. And one told me, “Oh, Puerto Ricans
are drug addicts.” And I stopped him, and I said, “Why do you say that? Drugs
come from all over the world. You know?” Then he got a little bit -- and he said,
“Where are you from?” [01:05:00] And I said, “I’m from Puerto Rico.” And he
said, “Well, if you like it here so much, why don’t you go back?” But then, you
know, I got a little bit -- I stopped. I calmed down, and he took off. But I was
gonna tell him, “You gotta do some studying, because the Puerto Ricans are
American.” They just don’t -- a lot of them don’t want to face it, but we are
Americans, and we’re the only ones that didn’t have to pledge the flag. You
know? Like take the Constitution or anything? We didn’t have to do that.
47
�JJ:
You didn’t have to study for that.
ML:
We didn’t have to.
JJ:
Because we were born citizens.
ML:
We were born citizens. So I said to myself, What’s he talking about? He’s the
DP, not me! You know?
JJ:
DP stands for what?
ML:
[Deported?].
JJ:
[Deported?].
ML:
[Deported?]. DP. That’s what they call ’em, DP. Yeah. But [01:06:00] we didn’t
have to. So people from Europe and all that, they’re DPs. They’re calling us
DPs, but we’re not, because we were automatically citizens. Everybody, like
from Latin America, they have to pledge the flag, but we don’t. And I started
thinking, [we’re the only ones?] from all the Latinos and all the people from
Europe, all over the world, we’re the only ones, if you think about it. But it
doesn’t make me any greater, because I love people. I don’t care what
nationality they are. And I think that mostly the Puerto Rican people are like that.
They like other people. And if you look into -- study, if you look into Puerto Rico,
they got Blacks, they got blue eyes, they got tan, mulattos. And not all of them
are -- they’re all different nationalities. [01:07:00] They got Irish. They got
German. They got Mexican, Cuban. Name it. It’s mixed. So if you’re talking
about against a Puerto Rican, you’re talking about practically everybody. You
know? ’Cause we’re all mixed, different nationalities, ’cause a lotta people
landed there in Puerto Rico from different countries. So don’t talk about a Puerto
48
�Rican, because you’re talking about yourself. We got Italian, Filipino, you name
it. Right on. (laughter) You know? If you’re talking about -- this is what I’m
thinking. You’re talking about a Puerto Rican, you’re talking about your own self,
because that’s how the mixture is. Yeah?
JJ:
Okay. [01:08:00] What do you think we should add to this that we haven’t talked
about that you want to? What’s the main thing you want to make sure that it gets
in here?
ML:
The main thing?
JJ:
Yeah.
ML:
Unity. Let’s just unite instead of going against each other.
JJ:
Okay. So we don’t have any unity now?
ML:
No. There’s no unity. They’re still going against -- people going against people.
You know, they’re not showing that love. You know?
JJ:
There used to be love, is that what you’re saying?
ML:
That they have never shown love for each other.
JJ:
So you’re saying the most important thing is that we gotta let people know about
unity?
ML:
Unity. Unite and show love for each other, [01:09:00] instead of fighting against
each other. You know? Or making comments.
JJ:
Like what? What kind of comments? What are you [talking about?]?
ML:
Well, the other day, there was one they had about -- it was all over the news
about Puerto Rico -- about -- what are they called? About Humboldt Park?
JJ:
Oh, yeah. What’d they say about Humboldt Park?
49
�ML:
Oh, that -- can you refresh me on that? Humboldt Park, about those -- it was a
cake?
M1:
Yeah, the TipsyCake thing? Yeah.
JJ:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, they --
ML:
They called Humboldt Park -- what? There was a word.
M1:
Humboldt crack (inaudible) cake, and --
ML:
Humboldt crack.
JJ:
Yeah, crack, like crack cocaine or something?
ML:
Uh-huh.
M1:
Yeah.
ML:
So those are fighting words.
JJ:
They were calling -- saying that Puerto Ricans had crack cocaine, or something,
or...?
ML:
No, they just called Humboldt Park, instead of calling it Humboldt Park, they
called it Humboldt crack.
JJ:
[01:10:00] Humboldt crack?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
And so why did that upset you?
ML:
It doesn’t upset me. I think they’re ignorant. I think they should be told. They
should be told that we are Americans. We are Americans. Just like they
consider themselves Americans, we are Americans. That’s all. And they
shouldn’t go against us. Like I said, if they go against us, they’re going against
their own people, because Puerto Rican is such a mixed group that -- they don’t
50
�know. And they don’t know this. They’re not educated, or maybe they don’t want
to be educated, ’cause we have all colors.
JJ:
So unity. You want to make sure people know about unity.
ML:
Unity is important. [01:11:00] Unity and the talents that the Puerto Ricans have.
They have a lot of talent. And they have two languages. Two languages is
better than one. Two languages, two people.
JJ:
So we’re mixed, we’ve got two languages, and we need unity. What else do we
need? What else do you think should be in here that’s important?
ML:
Love each other. Love one another.
JJ:
What do you want people to know about you, basically?
ML:
About me?
JJ:
Yeah. What type of person were you -- what type of person are you? Who are
you?
ML:
Me? I love everybody. I love everybody, and I like people to -- [01:12:00] not to
feel pain, to heal, because I used to work in the hospitals. So I like to feel
empathy with them. Sympathy, yes, but empathy, put myself in their place. Like
if they’re hurting, feel their pain, feel what they’re going through. And not putting
them down.
JJ:
’Cause yeah, you worked in a hospital, and so it [comes from being?] --
ML:
Give them comfort, yes.
JJ:
Give them comfort and -- do you feel like people are put down or something
when they are hurting, or...?
ML:
A lot of people get put down, and they don’t feel good about it. [01:13:00] You
51
�know? It makes you -- just like if you’ve been bullied. You know? A lot of
people don’t feel good about it, and a lot of them -- a lot of times, that leads to
suicide, or it leads somebody to, instead of quitting drinking, make them drink
more, because you put them down. You know, they look for an escape if you put
them down. But if you praise them, they feel better, and maybe it makes a
change in their life. And also not being judgmental. It’s very important. To judge
against people just because they did this, just because they did that, you judge
against them and classify them for the rest of their life. No. People make
changes. Give them an opportunity.
JJ:
[01:14:00] Do you feel that Puerto Ricans have been judged wrongly or not
received opportunities, or where do you get that from, that you don’t want people
to be judged, or give them an opportunity?
ML:
Well, I get that from even, you know, from -- mainly it’s from the home. It comes
from your own home. Like if somebody judges you, call you a bad word, or
whatever. So if somebody calls you a bad word, then you live on with that. You
know, why am I this? Why do they call me this? And this and that, you know?
But it could come from your own home, not necessarily from another human
that’s not related to you. But it starts that way. People -- [01:15:00] you know, it
starts from when you’re growing up. But if you feed ’em the good stuff, then
they’ll, you know. It’s what you feed in their heads. If you tell ’em that they’re
good, and they could do better, then that person is gonna do better. You know?
Raise themself up. But if you put ’em down and say different things about them,
bad things about them, that person is not gonna be loving, you know, have love
52
�in their heart. They’re gonna have hate.
JJ:
If you had to describe growing up in this area or in Lincoln Park -- you know, we’ll
call it Lincoln Park, but -- or Lakeview, Lincoln Park or Lakeview -- if you had to
describe it in a few sentences, what was it like living in Lincoln Park for you? In a
few sentences.
ML:
It was -- living here was good. It gave [01:16:00] myself an opportunity to be
educated as much as I get. I didn’t accomplish much, but I feel that I
accomplished something. And I was able to work, work at good places. I worked
at Saint Joseph. And I was given an opportunity. So if I had to do it again, I’d do
it again, live in this area. It’s a very good area. It’s a rich area now, since the
yuppies moved in, but it’s for the best. It’s not for the worst. Changes are for the
best. And if it means cleaning up the streets and getting the bad stuff out, why
not? That’s what I think.
JJ:
[01:17:00] Okay. (Spanish) [01:17:01]
ML: (Spanish) [01:17:05]
JJ:
Okay. (Spanish) [01:17:06]
ML:
I think I said enough. I’ve been here about two hours. (laughs)
JJ:
I appreciate it.
(break in audio)
JJ:
Okay. If you could give me your full name?
ML:
Married name or --?
JJ:
Married name and your -- you know, your name and your married name.
ML:
Before and after.
53
�JJ:
Before and after, any way you want to do it.
ML: (Spanish) [01:17:29] Martha Martinez. (Spanish) [01:17:35] Victor Lopez, (Spanish)
[01:17:39] Martha Lopez.
JJ:
Okay. And (Spanish) [01:17:43] -- where -- we’ll do it bilingual, but you can -probably more in English, but we’ll do it bilingual.
ML:
Well, I’ll try.
JJ:
Okay. Whatever way you feel comfortable. But okay. So when did you come to
Chicago?
ML:
I came [01:18:00] in 1958.
JJ:
Nineteen fifty-eight. And did you come straight from Puerto Rico?
ML:
Straight from Puerto Rico.
JJ:
And where did you come from? What town in Puerto Rico?
ML:
Arecibo, in Sabana Hoyos.
JJ:
Sabana Hoyos? Is that in the country?
ML: (Spanish) [01:18:15 - 01:18:19]
JJ:
Okay. And so what about your parents? What kind of work did they do at that
time over there?
ML:
(Spanish) [01:18:26 - 01:18:38].
JJ:
Okay. So he cut sugarcane and that? Okay. And so what was the reason for
you to come -- you came with both of your parents?
ML:
Well, I was nine and a half, and I came with both my parents and four brothers.
JJ:
And four brothers? Okay. So you were nine and a half. So did you go
[01:19:00] to any school while you were over there?
54
�ML:
Over there? Yes.
JJ:
Okay. What was school like over there? What was it like? Because you went to
school here, too, so what was the difference?
ML:
Well, I went to school up to fifth grade. It was pretty good. We didn’t do any
kindergarten, that’s for sure.
JJ:
There was no kindergarten?
ML:
No.
JJ:
So you said it was pretty good. What do you mean? Was there any difference
between here and there, or...?
ML:
Well, we only spoke Spanish. They taught us little words like lápiz, pencil;
pluma, pen. That’s about it, you know, little words. But when we came over
here, it was total difference, because we had to conquer the language. We didn’t
know any English at all.
JJ:
So you came over here. What school did you go to?
ML:
[01:20:00] I went to Lincoln School, located on Orchard and Geneva.
JJ:
On Geneva? Okay. In Lincoln Park?
ML:
Lincoln Park area, yeah.
JJ:
What they call the Lincoln Park area.
ML:
And I went to --
JJ:
So what grade did you start there?
ML:
Gee. Well, they lowered me from fifth grade to second grade.
JJ:
From fifth grade to second grade. Why did they do that?
ML:
Yes. Also, my brothers were lowered.
55
�JJ:
And why did they do that?
ML:
Because we had a language barrier.
JJ:
So it wasn’t because you weren’t at the level. It was just only because you --
ML:
The language barrier.
JJ:
-- because of the language barrier. You couldn’t speak English that well.
ML:
At all.
JJ:
And so all your brothers, everybody was lowered, and you were lowered.
ML:
Every Hispanic -- well, I’m not saying every Hispanic. Everybody that came from
Puerto Rico was lowered at that time that didn’t know the language.
JJ:
Where did you live? [01:21:00] You went to Lincoln. You lived in Lincoln Park,
but where?
ML:
I used to live at Dickens and Larrabee.
JJ:
Oh, at Dickens and Larrabee?
ML:
Mm-hmm, right by Grant Hospital.
JJ:
Okay. What was the -- well, before we go into there, I see that you have some
things here from your husband. Can you describe some of them, hold them up
and describe them?
ML:
Oh, my husband was a Vietnam veteran. I married him in --
JJ:
What was his name?
ML:
Victor Lopez. We got married in 1972. And he belonged to the Boricua Post.
JJ:
Actually, that was an organization that was, what, on North Avenue or something
like that?
ML:
It’s still there. It still exists.
56
�JJ:
It still exists there?
ML:
Yes. I don’t know the right address, but it’s still there.
JJ:
On North Avenue?
ML:
I believe so. [01:22:00] I believe so. I’m not really sure, because my husband
passed, so I didn’t keep up with them.
JJ:
Right. Okay. So did you go to some of their activities, or...?
ML:
Some, and we went to the parade.
JJ:
What kind of activities did they have?
ML:
They’d just get together and talk about the war, and sort of reunite with each
other so they could share what they went through at the war.
JJ:
Okay. (Spanish) [01:22:30]?
ML:
(Spanish) [01:22:33 - 01:22:36].
JJ:
(Spanish) [01:22:36]. And it still exists.
ML:
Still exists.
JJ:
The Boricua Post 37, they call it?
ML:
Amvets 37.
JJ:
Okay. And what are some of the other things that you have?
ML:
I have some medals here. Second Field --
JJ:
Okay. If you can put [01:23:00] them up for the camera so they can see them.
ML:
Okay. This is the Second Field badge. Those are the medals that he got when
he went overseas in Vietnam. Whoops. This is for being in the service in
Vietnam. It’s another one.
JJ:
Now you said recently he passed away, or when did he pass away?
57
�ML:
He passed away in 2008, in 2008. It’s kinda hard for me to talk about it, ’cause
it’s been recent.
JJ:
Yeah, it is kind of recent, yeah.
ML:
[01:24:00] This is for conduct.
JJ:
Okay, Conduct Medal, okay.
ML:
Conduct Medal. The ribbon was there, but I don’t know where it is. This is the
Bronze Star. Bronze Star.
JJ:
So he was well decorated.
ML:
He was really proud of what he did, but except the war stays inside. They never
leave the veteran, so they don’t know how to cope with reality when they come
back. This is a Vietnam Campaign Medal. (pause) [01:25:00] (inaudible)
(pause) National Defender Medal. (pause) Here’s the Purple Heart.
JJ:
Oh, the Purple Heart. Okay. So he --
ML:
Got injured.
JJ:
He got injured, so he received a Purple Heart.
ML:
Yeah. He had, like, shrapnel in his body.
JJ:
Okay, that’s -- Victor [01:26:00] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
ML:
His name is Victor. I lost the other one. And here’s a Silver Star medal. That’s a
little picture of him when he was over there.
JJ:
Let me see if I can zoom in on that. Okay. There’s that. Okay.
ML:
And he also went to Waller.
JJ:
Waller High School, also in Lincoln Park. So he grew up in Lincoln Park also?
ML:
I believe so, yes. He grew up around this area.
58
�JJ:
When did you meet him?
ML:
I met him in ’72. [01:27:00] I married him in ’72, same year. Ten months.
JJ:
And you met him at Waller, right, at the school, in Waller?
ML:
No, it was blind date.
JJ:
A blind date. (laughter)
ML:
No, I didn’t know him at school. I think he didn’t go all the way through school.
Uh-huh.
JJ:
Okay. So you came in ’58, and you went to Lincoln School. And you lived on -what street did you say?
ML:
Dickens.
JJ:
Dickens and Larrabee.
ML:
And Larrabee.
JJ:
Right. Okay. And can you -- in 1958, can you describe the makeup of the
neighborhood? Who lived there? What type of nationalities lived there?
ML:
In that neighborhood?
JJ:
In that area where you lived.
ML:
In that area, there was a lot of Hispanics lived around that area, but young kids,
and not teenagers. [01:28:00] Mostly little kids, because that’s when everybody
started coming from Puerto Rico around that time.
JJ:
Around ’58?
ML:
In the fifties they started coming.
JJ:
You know, ’cause they came in different waves, so there was a big wave around
’58 when you came?
59
�ML:
Right, because our parents didn’t have jobs, so they’d come over to look for a
better life for us.
JJ:
Were there people recruiting people in Puerto Rico, or no, you just came -everybody just sort of came?
ML:
Everybody just came, because we are -- automatically, we’re citizens, so nobody
has to recruit us, you know. At least that’s one of the freedoms that we have,
privileges. So no, we just came. My uncle [Willie?], he helped my father a lot,
and his sister. [01:29:00] They came before my father did.
JJ:
So they were here already?
ML:
They were here already.
JJ:
Did they live in that same area, or...?
ML:
I believe so, yes, around this area.
JJ:
Do you remember visiting them?
ML:
More or less, yeah. I don’t remember exactly, but more or less.
JJ:
Because you were already like nine years old, so you kind of remember a lot of
things at that time when you came. What was it like, the first day school? How
did you -- how was that [for you?]?
ML:
Gee, I don’t remember the first day of school, but I remember going to school.
And because I was Hispanic, we used to get beat up.
JJ:
What do you mean?
ML:
They used to beat us up, like -- every day, we had to run. We had to run home.
JJ:
Who would beat you up?
ML:
The other kids.
60
�JJ:
Were they in a gang, or were they just --
ML:
No, just kids going against us because we were -- I guess because we were
Latinos.
JJ:
Do you know what nationality they were? [01:30:00] Just American?
ML:
Just American. Mm-hmm.
JJ:
And they just beat you up for no other reason, not because you were in a gang or
--
ML:
No. Oh, no.
JJ:
Just because you were Latinos.
ML:
Latinos. So I used to wait and --
JJ:
And you actually never went into a gang, right?
ML:
No. No, no.
JJ:
Okay. Okay.
ML:
No, because my father was real strict. We actually didn’t know anything about
gangs at that time. We were kids.
JJ:
So there were no real Spanish gangs or anything like that.
ML:
No, not around that area.
JJ:
Not around that time.
ML:
No. No.
JJ:
They came later, though.
ML:
Gangs came later when I went to Waller. That’s when I went. They’d have -- I
don’t know if it’s Eagles or something? The Eagles?
JJ:
Yeah, yeah, the Latin Eagles, yeah.
61
�ML:
There was always fights, but I used to go straight home. Whenever there was a
fight, somebody would find out about it, and we would know. [01:31:00]
Somehow we knew, and then we just went straight home, because they were
gonna fight.
JJ:
And usually it was a fight between the Spanish gang --
ML:
And the Blacks.
JJ:
And the Blacks, and the --?
ML:
Mainly the Blacks around that --
JJ:
At that time they were fighting, Blacks and Spanish were fighting?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
In that area, yeah.
JJ:
Okay. Now, Larrabee and Dickens. So you were kind of -- your parents kept you
in the house. And so what did you do, if you were in the house? I mean,
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
ML:
Oh, I would help my mother cook, and watch American Bandstands.
JJ:
That was a favorite show at that time.
ML:
Yeah, yeah.
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
The Mashed Potato and all that. Remember that?
JJ:
Okay, right. Mashed potatoes and --
ML:
Do that dance.
JJ:
What were some of the other songs that were on at that time?
62
�ML:
Gee, it’s been so long.
JJ:
But you were mashing potatoes. (laughs)
ML:
The Beatles came along. The Beatles. A lot of -- [01:32:00] The Beatles, um,
the Shangri-Las, the -- I don’t remember most of the names, but there’s a lot of -the Temptations were around that time. And we just kept up with the songs,
trying to learn the language.
JJ:
So you were sheltered, kind of, at home, but I mean, in school, did you have a lot
of friends, or...?
ML:
In school? No, we didn’t have that many friends. Like I said, we had to run
home, because we were afraid that we were gonna get beat up.
JJ:
Okay. So you --
ML:
So I just went out to rescue my brothers. And I always had books in my hands,
so I could beat them up with the books.
JJ:
Okay. Your brothers were younger, so you would protect them?
ML:
One was older, [Nicky?], [Nieves?], he’s older. And then three others were
younger.
JJ:
So that [01:33:00] kept you tight as a family or something, protecting each other?
ML:
Sure, because we -- you know, to us, it was something different. It was like a
jungle. You know? Something different. We had a language barrier, so we
didn’t know.
JJ:
But you were Americans, so how did you feel that you’re an American and you’re
being -- other Americans are --
ML:
Well, when you’re a kid, you don’t know the difference. You don’t know if you’re
63
�American or not. You just know that you’re a kid. You know?
JJ:
And they’re gonna chase you, because you’re Spanish.
ML:
Right. But we didn’t even know it was because of that, but we just figured it out,
that it was that.
JJ:
Okay. So you’re just walking to school, and all of a sudden, somebody starts
chasing you?
ML:
Chasing us, beating us, or they’ll say, “I’m gonna get you when you go outside.”
This white girl told me -- she was taller than me, and I looked at her, and she
said, “I’m gonna get you.” And I said, “Okay.” So I went. [01:34:00] I confronted
her. But I beat her up. And I was younger. Because when we grew up in Puerto
Rico, we used to climb trees and all that, so we were fast, and run up and down
the mountains.
JJ:
In Puerto Rico?
ML:
Yeah. The little hills and stuff. So we knew how to climb and run fast. So she
thought she was picking, you know, on somebody that didn’t know, but that’s one
thing. I was really, really fast running. So I beat her up, and then I took off. That
was the end of that. She never bothered me anymore.
JJ:
Now, what about -- did you go to the show or anything like that, or the theater?
What was the show? Did you go to -- any other, like, neighborhood activities, or
(inaudible) your parents (inaudible) --
ML:
My father used to take us [01:35:00] to the Lincoln Park area, to the Lincoln Park,
and we used to go inside that little fountain by the flower area.
JJ:
By the flower house? By the flower house there? Okay.
64
�ML:
Yeah, we used to get -- go inside the water and swim in there. But then they
said, No more swimming, so we had to get out. Yeah.
JJ:
I think, actually, I swam there too. A lot of people swam there.
ML:
You did. I know you did. A lot of people did. Then they had those little ponies.
JJ:
Yeah, basically all it is, is a fountain, but it’s deep enough to swim if you’re a little
kid. What were you saying about the ponies?
ML:
And they had little ponies, so they took pictures. My father used to take pictures.
Yeah. It was all different for us, because, you know, we didn’t -- in Puerto Rico,
we didn’t have that kind of activity, but we didn’t need it, because we were free.
You know? We did whatever we wanted.
JJ:
In Puerto Rico, you’re saying?
ML:
Yeah. It was free. You didn’t [01:36:00] have to close the doors or anything.
JJ:
And here you had to close doors?
ML:
And here you had to close doors and everything.
JJ:
But why did you have to close doors? What --
ML:
Over here, when you -- when we lived in an apartment here, we had to keep the
doors closed and that. In Puerto Rico, you didn’t have to. It was free.
Everybody was -- everybody knew each other, and it was friendly. We were not
afraid of anybody or anything.
JJ:
But your father was more afraid when you came to the United States?
ML:
Over here? Well, he had to protect us.
JJ:
But he didn’t have to do that in Puerto Rico.
ML:
No.
65
�JJ:
And the reason for protect-- did he give any reasons why he felt he had to protect
you, or...?
ML:
No, he didn’t give us any reason, but we caught on fast.
JJ:
What was that?
ML:
We caught on that it was dangerous outside, and [01:37:00] there was a lot of
different types of nationalities, so we caught on.
JJ:
And it was a big city too.
ML:
And it was a big city. So we caught on that there was danger out there, period.
That was it. Because were pretty bright kids, although we didn’t know the
language. We looked after each other.
JJ:
Now, did you have other family in Chicago?
ML:
At that time, yeah. Uncle Willie.
JJ:
You mentioned your uncle.
ML:
Uncle Willie was here, and my father’s sister, and let’s see. I believe two sisters.
Two sisters.
JJ:
Do you know -- what are their names?
ML:
[Carmen Martinez?] and [Isabel Martinez?]. She has two daughters. Carmen
didn’t have any kids.
JJ:
So what about for, like, holidays? [01:38:00] What holidays did you celebrate
with your family?
ML:
Holidays we got together and cooked. My mother cooked arroz con gandules
with lechon asado. Thanksgiving was pavo. And basically, arroz con gandules
always goes with Spanish food.
66
�JJ:
And so you’d visit each other and (inaudible)?
ML:
Yeah.
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
(removes glasses) Eyes are bothering me.
JJ:
Okay, that’s fine. And what about -- well, you mentioned you went to these
activities at the Amvets place, but what about any birthdays parties or anything
that you recall? Usually when you’re young, you like to go to parties.
ML:
Just the family. Little birthdays with the family. My uncle, [Rafael?], he had kids,
so we went. That’s about it. Not too many parties. [01:39:00] My father was a
religious person, so he kept us kind of inside mostly.
JJ:
When you say religious, what do you mean? Was he a -- what church?
ML:
He went to the Church of Christ. So he kept us straight. You know? He was a
very good man. Can’t find another father like that for myself. And he really kept
us straight. Not strict. He was lovable, but he was very, very straight on
everything. He let us know. He explained everything, what was going on.
JJ:
So he took time and explained things.
ML:
Oh, yeah.
JJ:
Now, did he go to school at all?
ML:
Did he go back to school?
JJ:
How far did he go to school?
ML:
Oh, no. My father had like a second grade or so.
JJ:
Oh, second, that’s all?
ML:
Yeah. He was orphaned at eight [01:40:00] from his mother, and then his father
67
�took a different road, and so my grandfather raised -- helped raise my father, my
mother’s father, because they’re cousins. So he helped raise my father. And
there were like eight other kids. He helped raise some of them, not all of them,
because they were scattered to different family.
JJ:
Do you remember the church that he went to here, where that was?
ML:
Yeah, the Church of Christ.
JJ:
United Church of Christ, or...?
ML:
It’s called the Church of Christ.
JJ:
The Church of Christ?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Okay. And that was located in Lincoln Park, or...?
ML:
No, that was located on Long and Division.
JJ:
Long and Division? So he went all the way there?
ML:
Right. The location now, [01:41:00] I don’t know where it is.
JJ:
Okay. What was -- inside Waller, we didn’t go too much into that, because --
ML:
Inside Waller?
JJ:
Because now there’s more Spanish people moving in in the neighborhood, or
no? This is ’58, or -- when you studied, there was very few Spanish people,
right?
ML:
At Waller, there was a lot of Hispanic people.
JJ:
There were a lot of Hispanic?
ML:
I have the pictures there. Those were all Hispanics that graduated there.
JJ:
Okay. So 19--?
68
�ML:
Sixty-eight. That’s when I graduated.
JJ:
Okay. So there was a lot of Hispanics. By 1968, there was a lot.
ML:
Oh, yeah.
JJ:
So was Lincoln Park -- were there a lot of Puerto Ricans in Lincoln Park at that
time, or...?
ML:
Yes. This area had a lot of Hispanics. Uh-huh.
JJ:
Okay. But when you first arrived in ’58, were there a lot of Hispanics?
ML:
There were, but we didn’t go around -- you know, because my father was always
taking care of us, so we didn’t [01:42:00] go around meeting them or anything.
But there were a lot of Hispanics coming in, arriving.
JJ:
So how did you feel later when they started coming, when more Hispanics came
in? Were you still afraid, or were you still sheltered? Was your father still
sheltering you?
ML:
No, we still stayed sheltered, and we didn’t communicate or anything. We just
kept living our life, our normal life. I wasn’t hanging around with this kid or that
kid. No. We just went to school and came home, did our homework or whatever.
JJ:
What was the highest grade that you went to? Did you graduate from college,
or...?
ML:
I went to fourth -- what is it, fourth grade high school -- it’s 12th grade. Then I
went to Truman College for a nursing assistant. Basically, what I did was, I
worked [01:43:00] throughout the hospitals. I worked at Saint Joseph Hospital
for about nine and a half years. Thorek, I did about six months, took a training
there for nursing. Never got the diploma, but I took the training there. And then
69
�Walther Memorial also, I did about eight and a half years there, physical therapy.
At that time, we didn’t need any papers to do that job. Now you do.
JJ:
Certified papers, you mean?
ML:
Yeah, for physical therapy aide. So that was basically what I did.
JJ:
So you went right from Waller to the nursing.
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
Now, was that normal? Were other kids -- I thought there was a big, high
dropout rate, or something like that.
ML:
Pardon me again?
JJ:
I thought there was a dropout rate, a high dropout -- people dropping out of
school?
ML:
There was a high dropout. My husband happened to be one of them, because
his father was [01:44:00] sick, so he had to go and find a job. So he dropped out.
JJ:
So what was the difference between you and them, because they dropped out
and you didn’t drop out?
ML:
Because my mother and father, they both had jobs. They used to work at the
candy factory where my uncle Willie, he was the foreman there.
JJ:
What candy factory was that?
ML:
Peerless Confection. Yep. It’s right around the -- was around the corner on
Schubert. Schubert -- I believe it’s Schubert. Yeah.
JJ:
Okay. Is that south of Diversey or north of Diversey?
ML:
It’s Schubert and Lakewood, so it’s, what --
JJ:
Probably north of Diversey, right? I’m not sure where Schubert is.
70
�ML:
Diversey? South. South of Diversey.
JJ:
So it’s still in Lincoln Park or something like that?
ML:
Yeah, it’s right around the corner, but I don’t remember the correct address.
Yeah, it’s in the Lincoln -- was. They sold it a couple years ago.
JJ:
[01:45:00] Oh, okay. So it was in the Lincoln Park neighborhood too.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
Okay. How many years did he work there?
ML:
My father?
JJ:
Yeah.
ML:
I believe he worked about 20 years.
JJ:
Twenty years there? And he was a -- just a laborer?
ML:
Candy maker.
JJ:
Candy maker. Okay. That was his title?
ML:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Okay.
ML:
And my mother was the candy packer.
JJ:
Now, did you ever go to -- oh, so she worked there too. She was at Peerless?
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
Okay. And how long did she work there.
ML:
Gee, I don’t really know how long, but maybe 8. Maybe 8 or 10 years, roughly.
JJ:
Okay. And that was the -- did your brothers and sisters -- I don’t recall. Did you
say [01:46:00] you had -- how many brothers and sisters did you have?
ML:
Four brothers, no sisters.
71
�JJ:
And one was older than you?
ML:
Nieves Martinez, changed his name to Nicky, because he didn’t like Nieves. He
also went to Waller.
JJ:
He went to Waller too?
ML:
Yeah. He went to Waller. Then he went to college. And he became a teacher.
JJ:
Oh, he’s a teacher?
ML:
Yes. But he didn’t like it, so he went into selling insurance.
JJ:
Okay. And he didn’t like Nieves? Why wouldn’t he like to be that name?
ML:
Why he didn’t like that name?
JJ:
They call me Joe, too, so, I mean, it’s not -- (laughs) I’m just trying to find out
why.
ML:
I don’t know. Maybe because people wouldn’t remember how to say the name or
something. I don’t know [at all?]. All of a sudden, his name was changed to
Nicky, and we kept that name.
JJ:
Okay, so he did it [01:47:00] more for other people, to make it easier on them --
ML:
I believe so.
JJ:
-- to pronounce than -- yeah.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
Okay. That’s sort of why I used Joe, too, for a little while.
ML:
Okay, makes sense.
JJ:
Yeah, because people couldn’t say José. They couldn’t say José, yeah.
ML:
Well, I had to change my name, too. My name is Marta, and I had to put an H on
my name, because they used to call me Maria, and they would always say that I
72
�was absent.
JJ:
At school?
ML:
At school. Yeah. One time they counted like eight absentees. “I called you.
Where you been?” I said, “I’ve been here.” And she said, “No, Maria.” I said,
“I’m not Maria. I’m Marta. You’re pronouncing my name wrong. I’m with a T, not
a I.” So I said, Okay, this is not going to change anything by I telling the teacher.
They’re not gonna change it. So I said, Well -- I got smart, and I put an H. So
ever since, I put an H on [01:48:00] my name. But I’m really Marta. But I’m
under -- my birth certificate’s under that, under Martha now.
JJ:
Now, did you have any children at all, or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
ML:
No children.
JJ:
No children? Okay. Okay. The neighborhood was changing, in 1958, and then
it started to change, like they started fixing up the houses and stuff like that. Do
you remember --?
ML:
It didn’t change that fast.
JJ:
It didn’t change that fast? Okay.
ML:
No, it stayed like that for --
JJ:
While you were growing up, it didn’t change.
ML:
No. Changes came after, like --
JJ:
Any big things that were going on when you were growing up that you
remember? Any big things that happened in the neighborhood or that you
remember, memorable things for you?
ML:
Not to me. [01:49:00] I didn’t really see any -- you know, I didn’t see the
73
�changes, because I was always inside. So no, they kept us in. But I remember
Lincoln Park area -- Lincoln area, where the Biograph is, that -- now there they
made a big change. They started putting new buildings up and stuff in the
Lincoln area.
JJ:
The Biograph, was that a local theater or something?
ML:
That was the local theater, and across the street was the Crest.
JJ:
Did you go there too?
ML:
Yes. Mm-hmm.
JJ:
So you would go to that theater. That was like the neighborhood theater?
ML:
More or less. And across the street was the Crest. They called it 3 Penny
Cinema, also.
JJ:
Yeah, they called it later, yeah, 3 Penny Cinema.
ML:
Yeah, that’s where all the young kids used to meet, at the Biograph. I don’t know
if you remember.
JJ:
Yeah, [01:50:00] I remember. I remember that theater.
ML:
A lot of -- that’s where they met, the teenagers.
JJ:
From Waller and that?
ML:
Yeah. They had dates, and they went there.
JJ:
And so you would go there with your date to --
ML:
No, mainly I didn’t date much. We just went to -- you know, just watch a good
movie or whatever. Also, my father would take us sometimes, so...
JJ:
So you would go there too.
ML:
Right.
74
�JJ:
(inaudible) And what were the stores? Where did you shop at? You know,
because you said arroz con gandules. Where would you go buy that stuff?
ML:
My father used to go buy at the Spanish store, but I don’t remember the Spanish
stores then. But I remember they had a -- one called [El Grito?] on Wrightwood.
El Grito. Wrightwood and Lill? Around there. Was it Wrightwood? No.
[01:51:00] Halsted. On Halsted.
JJ:
On Halsted by Wrightwood?
ML:
Right around there. They had a Spanish store called El Grito. We would shop
there. Then there was another one, a Cuban store, on Sheffield. What’s the
name of that? I forgot the name of that one. I think my aunt knows, but she’s not
here now. But anyway, that’s where he basically shopped. We used to live in
Cabrini-Green.
JJ:
Okay. Tell me about it.
ML:
Yeah. Back in the sixties, maybe ’63 or so.
JJ:
Oh, so from Larrabee and Dickens --
ML:
Sixty-three, ’64.
JJ:
-- you went to Cabrini-Green?
ML:
I believe so.
JJ:
Was that the Cabrini-Green that was at Halsted and Division --
ML:
Yes.
JJ:
-- right near the -- they called it the white project (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
--
ML:
Yeah.
75
�JJ:
-- by the color of the building.
ML:
The white projects.
JJ:
And what do you remember about that?
ML:
I went to Schiller [01:52:00] School.
JJ:
Schiller School?
ML:
Yeah. They used to run us home also.
JJ:
That was by Old Town, right, Schiller School?
ML:
Right.
JJ:
And they used to -- who used to run you there?
ML:
The kids.
JJ:
Now, these were not white kids, because they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --
ML:
No, Black kids. Very --
JJ:
This is the projects. This is the projects.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
So first you were being run home by white kids, and then you were being run
home by Black kids.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
Okay. Because you lived in Cabrini-Green, in the project that was -- I recall it
was mainly a lot of Puerto Ricans used to live there, there in the white project.
So you got chased. But what other things do you remember there? I mean, that
must have been -- were you on a top floor, or...?
ML:
We were on the eighth floor. The elevator stunk, so -- like they used to urinate in
them. Who knows? Maybe they did a bowel movement too, but I don’t
76
�remember [01:53:00] that. But I know it stunk. So we had to run up the stairs to
the eighth floor, and run down, because we were afraid to take the elevator. You
don’t know who you were gonna meet, so we ran fast up and down, every time.
It was a jungle there. And then I remember my father. Somebody threw -- some
kid or somebody threw a rock and got him on the head. My brother went to
Cooley High, and they set his hair on fire, my brother Nick, Nieves.
JJ:
Why did they set his hair on fire? I mean, was it --
ML:
Maybe the guys were jealous because the girls liked him, the Black girls liked
him. Who knows? I know they used to like him, so it could have been that.
JJ:
But there was trouble there --
ML:
It’s a racial thing.
JJ:
It was a racial thing?
ML:
[01:54:00] Uh-huh.
JJ:
But that building, didn’t you feel at all comfortable? Did they have a lot more
Spanish people in that building, or...?
ML:
Yeah, there was a lady named [Julia?]. We used to go visit her there. But we
didn’t like it, because there was a little girl that got killed there. They threw -- you
know when they have the milk gallons, the gallons of milk that are glass? And
from way up on -- I think it was the 11th or 12th floor, they threw a gallon of milk,
empty gallon, and they threw it on top of her head, and it killed her. So we didn’t
like it there at all.
JJ:
So why did you live there? I mean, because you went from --
ML:
Because it was -- I guess my father was looking for a bigger place. It was brand
77
�new. But he didn’t know. He didn’t know anything about the area.
JJ:
So at that time, it was brand new.
ML:
[01:55:00] Brand new.
JJ:
But it was part of the government housing.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
So you signed an application for the government housing?
ML:
I believe so. Then, yeah.
JJ:
And then they gave him that.
ML:
But he got off -- we lasted there like a year. That was it.
JJ:
And where did you go -- and so how long did you live there?
ML:
Like a year.
JJ:
A year? Okay. And then you moved --
ML:
Came back to Lincoln Park area.
JJ:
Where?
ML:
We lived by Webster and Lincoln.
JJ:
Webster and Lincoln? Okay.
ML:
Then we lived by Lincoln and Wrightwood.
JJ:
Okay, right there. And then just -- you stayed, kind of, on Lincoln Avenue.
ML:
Right. Then my father bought a building right over here on this street, on
Magnolia, 2633. That was his building. So he started progressing, working hard
but [01:56:00] progressing a little bit.
JJ:
What year was that?
ML:
That he bought the building?
78
�JJ:
Broken iron? Did you say broken iron?
ML:
No, working.
JJ:
Working hard. Working hard. Okay. In the candy factory (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible).
ML:
In the candy factory.
JJ:
And he was able to buy the house.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
And that, kind of, borders Lakeview and Lincoln Park, right, the two
neighborhoods?
ML:
Yes, it does.
JJ:
It’s, like, right at the edge of the --
ML:
Right at the edge. I don’t know if this is -- they call it Lakeview now or Lincoln
Park. I have no idea.
JJ:
I think this is probably Lakeview here, ’cause it’s -- well, no, no, no. It’s south of
University, so it’s still Lincoln Park.
ML:
It’s still Lincoln Park?
JJ:
It’s still Lincoln Park, yeah, south of University. University’s the dividing line.
ML:
So I live in Lakeview area, North Center.
JJ:
Oh, this is Lincoln Park. You were living here.
ML:
No, I live now at North Center, Lakeview area.
JJ:
Oh, okay, you live now in Lakeview. Okay. All right. So he bought the house,
and --
ML:
Nineteen sixty-seven.
79
�JJ:
But [01:57:00] you don’t know how much he paid for it then?
ML:
Eighteen thousand.
JJ:
Eighteen thousand. Okay. For two stories, or...?
ML:
Two stories and a English basement.
JJ:
English basement? Okay.
ML:
Mm-hmm, half and half.
JJ:
Okay. And you lived there most of your life after that, or...?
ML:
I lived there till 1972, when I got married.
JJ:
Okay. But he stayed living there?
ML:
Yeah, he stayed there till ’78. Then they left for Puerto Rico, 1978.
JJ:
So you didn’t see the changes, because you were away from the lake and away
from downtown, so you didn’t see the changes in the rest of Lincoln Park. Like
Halsted and Armitage was changing, but you didn’t see that, ’cause Halsted and
Armitage, wasn’t that a center, or Halsted and Dickens, [01:58:00] or something
like that? Was that not a center for the -- what was the center for --
ML:
I seen the -- yeah, when they started building buildings, I started seeing new
buildings coming up. When I went to Waller, I remember it was all a lot of old
houses, old buildings. We used to go, and they had Spanish little shops.
JJ:
A lot of Spanish stores?
ML:
Yeah. Little restaurants. There was a little Spanish restaurant we used to go to
by Halsted.
JJ:
Halsted and Armitage?
ML:
And Armitage, yeah, and the little hotdog stand. Remember that?
80
�JJ:
Right, on Halsted and Dickens.
ML:
Yeah. Those people left. They’re in Florida.
JJ:
Oh, they’re in Florida?
ML:
We made it -- yeah. One time we went to visit, and we saw them. We bought
some hot dogs there. They were good, weren’t they? (laughs)
JJ:
Oh, yeah. (inaudible) Okay. [01:59:00] So there was a bunch of little Spanish
stores around there, because I remember -- well, you know, there was a lot of tall
buildings right there in Halsted and Armitage, around that part, where the bank is
now. There’s a lot of [stuff like that?]. Okay, now, 1972. Did you hear at all
about the Young Lords at all, or no?
ML:
I heard about the Young Lords at the -- on the news. On the news. And I heard
that they helped a lot of people.
JJ:
At that time? I mean, at first it was -- because, you know, it was a gang before.
So how did you think about them when they came out in the news? What did
you think about it, as being a Puerto Rican immigrant and everything (inaudible)?
ML:
See, we didn’t --
JJ:
(Spanish) [01:59:52].
ML:
We didn’t keep up with the gangs or anything. All I know -- what I know is that
[02:00:00] gangs was, like, territorial.
JJ:
Okay. At that time?
ML:
At that time. And I don’t know if it still is.
JJ:
Well, at that time, they were territorial. What do you mean by territorial?
ML:
Well, you know, they couldn’t cross each other. That’s what I think.
81
�JJ:
So they had certain territory.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
And you couldn’t go past that territory, and if you did, you could get beat up if -you know, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
ML:
Beat up, and -- but at that time, they didn’t use guns.
JJ:
Right. It was more sticks, bottles, and knives, [and things?].
ML:
Right. So we were not afraid, because at least we had somebody fighting for us.
You know? Because --
JJ:
Even the gang, you were not afraid of?
ML:
No, because they were helping us in a sense, because they were territorial. You
know? We didn’t hang around with them, but --
JJ:
But you knew they weren’t going to attack you.
ML:
They were not going to attack us.
JJ:
Because they were Puerto Rican, that gang.
ML:
Right.
JJ:
[02:01:00] So they weren’t going to attack you. And at that time, they did protect
Puerto Ricans (inaudible)?
ML:
Right.
JJ:
Okay. Later on, of course, they got into the drugs, so they attacked Puerto
Ricans too.
ML:
Yeah, that was the Division area or something. I think that’s where the drugs
came in.
JJ:
But in Lincoln Park, the gangs were territorial at that time?
82
�ML:
Right. Mm-hmm.
JJ:
And so even though you weren’t in a gang, (inaudible) you’re saying?
ML:
Yeah, we --
JJ:
I don’t want to put words in your mouth. (laughs)
ML:
We were not in the gangs, but we were not afraid. You know?
JJ:
Even though you were a woman?
ML:
Right.
JJ:
You were not afraid that they were going to attack you (inaudible)?
ML:
No, because definitely they were not gonna attack us. We had some kind of
protection, you know?
JJ:
Right, right. And you knew some of these people from Waller, too, right?
ML:
From the gangs?
JJ:
Yeah. Did you know some of them?
ML:
Yeah, some of the guys.
JJ:
So they weren’t really any --
ML:
They had sweaters.
JJ:
They all had sweaters?
ML:
They had sweaters made.
JJ:
What kind of sweater? How did they look?
ML:
[02:02:00] With the name, the gang name.
JJ:
Okay. So all the different gangs had sweaters?
ML:
Uh-huh.
JJ:
Okay. Black sweaters with stripes, is that what you’re saying?
83
�ML:
Yeah, or purple, purple with black.
JJ:
Purple and black? That was the Young Lords.
ML:
The Young Lords. Yeah, that’s how we knew.
END OF VIDEO FILE
84
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c06dca92da0ee02a07f001d45bb5b2a1.mp4
25ccb37bda49e949c387184741fbcc2f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Martha López vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
Martha López creció en el vecindario de Lincoln Park y recuerda como la comunidad puertorriqueña prospera allí, especialmente en los jóvenes con grupos como Caballeros de San Juan y los Young Lords. También recuerda como fue atacada “por los blancos y morenos” quien vivía en otras partes del “Old Town” en Lincoln Park. Chicago era una ciudad muy segregado en los 1950 y 1960 y Lincoln Park no era diferente. Señora López recuerda que no tenía miedo de pelear con nadie cuando se enfrentaron con ella, y tuvo que tirar unos golpes. Pero ella nunca fue parte de una ganga. López atendió Arnold Elementary y luego Waller High school. Su esposo es un veterano miliario condecorado.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-65_Lopez_Martha
Title
A name given to the resource
Martha López video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
López, Martha
Description
An account of the resource
Martha López grew up in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood and recalls the thriving Puerto Rican community there, especially the youth groups, Caballeros de San Juan, and the Young Lords. She also recalls being attacked “from the whites and the blacks” who lived in different parts of the segregated Old Town and Lincoln Park neighborhoods.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-03-30
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c85601985276623764c4681434f20edc.pdf
2efb73004b9e1792ce0dd7bcb6102093
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Omar López
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 2/7/2012
Biography and Description
English
Omar López was Minister of Information for the Young Lords. He was born in Mexico and first came to
Chicago in 1958, settling in the Humboldt Park Neighborhood where he has lived ever since. He first met
some Young Lords in Lincoln Park when they were hanging out on the streets as a local Puerto Rican
street gang. When the Young Lords transformed themselves officially on September 23, 1968 into a
human rights movement, he saw them once again. This time those same young men were providing
security for José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Fred Hampton (of the Black Panther Party) who were speaking
together at Loop Jr. College where Omar a student and fighting for student rights and bilingual
education. Mr. López joined the Young Lords in 1969. In 1973, he founded the Mexican Teachers
Organization.Mr. López continues to work actively on behalf of Latino and immigrant rights. In 2006, he
ran as a Green Party candidate for the House of Representatives in Illinois, 4th District. That same year,
on March 10, he convened one of the largest mass demonstrations on behalf of working class immigrant
rights in U.S. history.
�Mr. López continues to be proactive in the Humboldt Park area, with immigrant rights, the Latin
American Defense Organization (LADO), and the Young Lords. He is the Executive Director of CALOR, a
clinic that especially serves Latinos affected by HIV/AIDS and other diseases.
Spanish
Omar López era el Ministro de Información para los Young Lords. Nació en México y llego a chicago en
1958, estableándose en el vecindario de Humboldt Park donde sigue viviendo. El primero conoció
alguien de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park cuando estaban en las calles como una ganga puertorriqueña.
López los vio de nuevo cuando los Young Lords se transformaron, oficialmente en el 23 de Septiembre
de 1958, de in ganga a un movimiento de los derechos humanos. Esta vez los jóvenes estaban
protegiendo a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y Fred Hampton (del Black Panther Party) quien estaban
hablando juntos en Loop Jr. College donde López estaba peleando por los derechos de los estudiantes y
educación bilingüe. López se hizo parte de los Young Lords en 1969. En 1973 el fundo el Mexican
Teachers Organization.
Señor López continúa trabajando por los derechos de Latinos y emigrantes. En 2006, el corrió por el
Green Party como candidato para la Case de Representantes de Illinois, del 4th distrito. El 10 de Marzo
del mismo año el reunió una de la más grandes demonstraciones, de gente que luchaban por los
derechos de los inmigrantes de clase obrera, en la historia de los Estados Unidos. López continua siendo
proactivo en la aria de Humboldt Park, derechos para inmigrantes, la “Latin American Defense
Organization (LADO), y los Young Lords. El es el director ejecutivo de CALOR, una clínica para Latinos que
han sido afectados por HIV/AIDS u otras enfermedades.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
If you can begin by telling us when you arrived in Chicago, where
you lived at, and where you came from in Mexico.
OMAR LOPEZ:
Okay. Yeah. Well, I came to Chicago, or I was brought to Chicago
at age 13, and from the beginning we came to live in Humboldt Park. I’m talking
about 1958. Nineteen-fifty-eight and it wasn’t what it is today or what it has been
in the last 30, 40 years. I mean, then the neighborhood wasn’t even beginning
the transition yet between white dominant community to then Latino-Puerto Rican
community. But that’s where we landed from the beginning. As a teenager, I
hung around a lot in Maplewood and Division. There were some of [00:01:00]
the young Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, and we used to get together on a hot
dog stand that was there. And that’s where I also began to hear, for example,
about the different programs like the YMCA’s intervention programs, things like
that. And of course, that’s where we used to go from Maplewood and Division,
that’s where we used to go out to our little fights in Humboldt Park and other
places against the Polish-Italian gangs that were in that particular community.
So it was even way back then that I used to have a hillbilly friend. They used to
talk to me about the Young Lords too. Kenny Smith was his name, and he used
to travel a lot. I mean travel like from Lincoln Park to Humboldt Park, and that’s
how we used [00:02:00] to -- that’s when I started hearing about the Young Lords
also. He would tell me that -- we used to have a little scrimmages with a group, it
was called Chi-West and he’s, “Oh, well, we got to go get the Young Lords we’re
1
�at over there in Armitage, the playground in Armitage.” So that was the first
beginning when I started hearing about the Young Lords. So most of my
adolescence was in the Humboldt Park community, but already having contact
with other communities, Latino communities like Lincoln Park. Interestingly
enough, through Kenny Smith was a hillbilly. That’s how I started to be in touch
with the Young Lords at the time.
JJ:
About what year was this?
OL:
[00:03:00] Oh, I’m talking about beginning between 1961 and 1966, because the
other groups were just forming also in the community. We had groups like the
Trojans and others that were just beginning in the Humboldt Park community.
But then the Young Lords came later. My contact with the Young Lords came
later, probably about when Kenny Smith used to come around and talk about it.
Maybe it was about 1965, maybe 1966, something like that. That was around
the time.
JJ:
Okay. And you were going to what schools and what schools were you going to?
OL:
Okay. In grammar school, I went to Yates. Yates Elementary School. And then
from there, when I graduated from Yates, then I went to Tuley High School. So I
did [00:04:00] all my four years in Tuley. Again, Tuley was primarily Ukrainian,
Polish, Italian, and there’s probably about 45 Mexicans and Puerto Ricans
altogether. It was just beginning to come into Tuley High School. So again, the
life in Tuley High School was also the same. We had to deal with some of those
groups that were there, primarily Polish and Italian groups that were in Tuley.
But I did four years at Tuley, and then after that I got married. So I didn’t go to
2
�school for a while until I decided that I needed to go to Loop City College to start
taking some courses there in Loop College. And that’s what I did [00:05:00] right
back in about 1966, 1967, 1968, decided that I needed to go back to school. At
Tuley -- at Loop College there was a lot of activity going on already. I was trying
to get some of the high school guys that had gone to school with me to go to
Loop City College. Some of ’em did, but there was a lot of activity going on. We
formed a group at Tuley -- Loop College that was called OLAS, the Organization
of Latin American Students, and we called it Latin American because there was a
lot of Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Colombians. So we couldn’t call it either
Mexican, Puerto Rican or -- so we went for OLAS, Organization of Latin
American Students. And we made a lot of good alliances with the [00:06:00]
Black Student Union that was also at Loop College. And that’s when we also, we
pushed to have a coalition with Black students at the time that we called it The
Third World Coalition. And the Third World Coalition, what we did was we were
very much in touch also with the Black Panther Party then. We invited Fred
Hampton to come and speak to the students, things like that. So we were
hooked into a lot of the activity, political activity was going on, but in OLAS, the
emphasis was to go back to the neighborhood. Yeah, you’re studying, but you
got to go back to the neighborhood. And it was right around that time also that I
came in contact with you, Ralph Rivera, Cha-Cha, that you were reorganizing
[00:07:00] the Young Lords. And I remember the meeting that we talked a little
bit about the reorganization. The first time that I heard you talk about it was at
the Urban Training Center. The Presbyterian Church used to have what they
3
�called a, UTC, the Urban Training Center. It was training almost like community
organizers, and it was on Ashland and Washington, the Congregational Church,
First Congregational Church there. And that’s when we met and started talking
about the restructuring. You talked to me about the restructuring. You talked to
me about the button with Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón, all of that. So that
was sort of like the first time that we began to talk about the restructuring of the
Young Lords. So that was back in 1960-had to be 1968. That’s a long time ago,
but I think it was 1968, [00:08:00] maybe around April or so of 1968. So that’s
where everything was beginning to brew in terms of the organization.
JJ:
And then what happened? When did you come to the neighborhood, to the
church and then after --
OL:
Again, I had had a lot of activity going on with the youth groups on Division
Street, because remember in 1966, there was the Puerto Rican riots. And so all
of the guys that used to hang around Division and Maplewood were involved in
the three days of riots and Division. So there was a lot of big communication
within groups, not just between the guys on Division and Maplewood, but
Division and Hoyne and around Damon, [00:09:00] the people that were coming
from Harrison and Western.
JJ:
What was the Division Street Riot? What was that about?
OL:
The Division Street Riot was in June of 1966, and I think that was the culmination
of all the repression that the police was carrying on against, especially young
people. I mean, it was the youth that were really active in the neighborhood, and
they were forming their groups, they were getting involved in different activities,
4
�going to dances at the YMCA. So there was a lot of activity with the youth
groups, but of course, there was a lot of street activity too. And the police was
always coming down on the young people. Always, always, always. And I think
this was sort of like what broke the camel’s back? The straw that broke the
camel’s back was when the police [00:10:00] shot this young guy on Division,
around Division and Hoyne. It was right after the Puerto Rican, the first Puerto
Rican parade in the city. So it was a Sunday, I think it was Sunday, June, I want
to say Sunday, June 16th of 1966. And that incident started the young people to
really come out on the police. What happened after that people got really angry
at these injustices, really. And people started coming out on the street. And the
police that were involved in the shooting of this guy, of course, they called in for
reinforcements. So the more police came into the area and more people came
out from the houses, and there was a lot of confrontation going [00:11:00] on
between the police, but it was focused on that Damon/Division area. And what
happened was the police began to try to arrest people, and people were
beginning to confront the police at the time. And what happened was that there
was, on that block between Hoyne and Damon on Division, there used to be a
theater. It was called the San Juan Theater. And on top of the door, on the side
of the theater, there was a lot of offices. And one of those offices, there was this
guy that had a radio program every Sunday. They used to -- he used to call
himself [el Boricua Argentino?]. He was from Argentina, but since the market
was Puerto Rican, he was catering to the Puerto Rican community. So he had a
Sunday program, and he used to broadcast from that office up by the San Juan
5
�Theater. [00:12:00] And what he did was they looked out the window, and when
he looked out the window, he saw what was going on between police and the
community people, and he started -- was on the air. So he was almost like
narrating what he was seeing. And I think that’s what got a lot more people to
come out. People used to listen to his program every Sunday. So when he
started talking about the injustices that he was seeing from the second floor, he
had a bird’s eye view of the activity. A lot more people started coming up, and a
lot of the young people were really the ones that were fueling all this activity to
the point where in front of the San Juan Theater, I think there was one or two
squad cars that were burned. But then that was the Sunday, and then it began to
spread, so that in those three days of rioting, it went from Damon and Division all
the [00:13:00] way to California and Division. That was a lot. That was a lot like
19 to 26, about a mile stretch. But of course, you see it now and you have the
hospital, you have other institutions there. But before that was all apartments all
along Division Street, there was all people coming out. And so that kept it going
for three days and three nights. That was a key event in the Puerto Rican
community, because what that did was it forced Mayor Daley to acknowledge the
Puerto Rican community. One of the things that he had to do was open up an
Urban Progress Center as a response. And the first director of the Urban
Progress Center was Dr. Samuel Betances. But also, they had to -- one of the
demands that came from the Puerto Rican community [00:14:00] was we want
Hispanic policemen in the force. There was hardly any, maybe one or two, and
they couldn’t make it because of the height. So one of the demands that this
6
�committee that was formed as a result of the riots, one of the demands was to
lower the height. And Mayor Daley had to do that -- he had to do it for the entire
force. So some people says, now you get a lot of midgets in the force because
they lowered the height, but that’s how they got a lot of Latino policemen. They
started to come in that way. But it was key because I think that was actually the
only time in the history of the Latino community in Chicago that the power
structure was confronted and challenged the way that the Puerto Rican
community did that. I haven’t seen that happen [00:15:00] ever again in the
Latino community. And as a result, I think the Puerto Rican community began to
make some advancements in politics, in education. We were getting elected
officials, things like that. But that three days of rioting, I think that was key in
what happened later in the Puerto Rican community.
JJ:
And what was going on with you from 1966 to when you get involved with these
students and young folks?
OL:
Well, what happened was after the riots, there was a need to organize. I was a
student, part-time, but I was still very in touch with the guys in the street. And
also my older brother, Obed was in the area, and he was a good organizer. So
we decided that we needed to organize and start providing services to the
families [00:16:00] in the community. Because that was part of it, the fact that
families in the community were not getting the services they needed. Young
people were not getting the services they needed. So there was a vacuum in
terms of that. So I got involved with my brother, and because I had a pretty nice
base with the young guys, so we started organizing. We organized the Latin
7
�American Defense Organization, LADO. Basically what that was doing was
helping a lot of the young families that were arriving from Puerto Rico for the first
time in Chicago, and they needed to get established and to get established, they
had to go to Public Aid. And Public Aid was always giving them a hard time
denying them services, denying them assistance, when in fact, they needed to
have that, and they were eligible to get [00:17:00] it, but the welfare department
was always giving them a hard time. So that was one of the organizing points,
the welfare assistance, because that affected the entire family. So that was it.
And as a result, LADO formed what they call the Welfare Union. And the Welfare
Union had then contact with the African-American community, the white
Appalachian community that were in the same situation. They formed the
Welfare Coalition also, but that was it. What happened here was that although
these young families had, the sons and daughters were the ones that were out in
the streets also. So the young people at the time also saw LADO as a model for
organizing. [00:18:00] And so when they were thinking of organizing, they used
to look at that as a model. And so that was how I started to do a lot of
community work too, and community organizing until I started to go to Loop
College. Then we started to do some student organizing also.
JJ:
And what is the connections to LADO and the Young Lords?
OL:
Okay, once the Young Lords began to function as a community organization,
then there was also the communication between LADO and the Young Lords.
And there was a natural connection because again, in this case, Lincoln Park
was having some of the very same problems that Humboldt Park, West Town,
8
�Wicker Park were having with the Puerto Rican families. [00:19:00] So there was
a natural connection. So for example, when LADO would have a demonstration
at the welfare offices, for example, the Young Lords participated as security for
all these mothers, young mothers, and with their children, they used to come and
march. And also the Black Panthers through the Young Lords, then the Black
Panthers would also participate in these kinds of demonstrations. So that’s what
I’m saying it was sort of like a natural connection. And that’s when the
communication between the Latin American Defense Organization, LADO, and
the Young Lords began to happen also. And since I had been a lot more active
with LADO, which was in the Humboldt Park area, and when the connection with
the Young Lords was made, then I also began to get involved in the actions of
the Young Lords, [00:20:00] and that’s how I began to get a lot more involved in
the organization.
JJ:
There was a trip to Denver that I believe, can you explain that?
OL:
There was a lot of activity going on, a lot of political activity going on at the time.
And in the southwest of the United States, the activity was centered around the
Chicano movement. So there was a lot of activity going on in the southwest from
Denver, New Mexico, California, all those places had a lot of actions going on.
And again, the organizing tool over there was Chicanismo was a cultural
nationalist movement out there. In 1968, the Crusade for Justice, which is
headed by Rodolfo “Corky” Gonzales hosted, or they organized [00:21:00] the
Chicano Youth Conference, national Chicano Youth Conference. And we were
invited. Chicago was invited, and we had a lot of meetings. This was very
9
�interesting, the Young Lords were in, because the Young Lords by this time were
already developing a political consciousness. So it was no problem for the
Young Lords to say we’re going to go, but we were working with other youth
groups like 18th Street. We were working with the Latin Counts, Ambrose, and
the Rampants, and we wanted them to get involved and also go on the trip to
Denver, but on the north side, and sort of like the youth base for LADO was the
Latin Kings and they didn’t see eye to eye. But we began to have meetings
between [00:22:00] the groups and came to a point where they decided, “Yeah,
okay, we’re going to make peace and we’re going to travel to Denver.” So we
had two buses full of people that went to Denver. And in them, it was interesting
because we had the Young Lords, the Kings, Counts, Ambrose. It was different
groups of young people that were out there that were really impacted by the
conference. I think the Young Lords were very much impacted. As a matter of
fact, this is where we made the contact with Hayward, California, it was a group
of young people from Hayward who decided they wanted to found the Young
Lords in Hayward. So that was back in 1968. So the idea of expanding the
concept of the youth organization, like the Young Lords in Denver started to
happen because [00:23:00] the kids from Hayward, they said, “I want to be
Young Lords.” So they started to do that. But I think that trip to Denver had a big
impact on the Chicago youth. When we came back, I know that the Latin Kings
and the Young Lords began to have a lot of good communication about
organizing, and the Kings began to call themselves the Latin King organization,
10
�also just like the Young Lords organization. But I think that Denver had a lot of
impact in 1968, and then went back in 1969 again. So that was good.
JJ:
Now you came back and what were some of the activities that were going on?
What was your role in the Young Lords, your title?
OL:
Well, then what happened after Denver, we already had been in touch and
talking about the need to organize in Lincoln Park with the [00:24:00] Young
Lords. And at that point, it was in early 1968, it was even before we went to
Denver. We talked about the fact that you needed someone to handle all of the
communications for the Young Lords, and you asked me to be the Minister of
Information for the Young Lords. And after I had checked with again, because I
was active with LADO, checked with him, and we also said, that’s a natural
connection because we’re about the same thing, and there’s a need with the
Young Lords. So I went and became the Ministry of Information for the Young
Lords. So then we came back from Denver. There was a lot of activity in
Chicago. You remember when Manuel Ramos was shot and killed? That was
when we had the march on [00:25:00] the police station as a result of the killing
of Manuel. That’s when we took over McCormick Theological Seminary and then
the church. So 1968 was really a very intense year for the Young Lords of
growth, you see, because, and it was growing very fast. And I think that one of
the things that happened was that through your leadership, the fact that you were
putting it together to be able to have the impact that the Young Lords needed to
have with youth, all the young people, I think that was important because
otherwise, the Young Lords, with incidents like the Manuel Ramos killing, it
11
�would’ve fallen apart, but it didn’t. I think that with the kind [00:26:00] of
organizing and all of the talking that you were doing with the rest of the members,
I think that with the killing of Manuel Ramos rather than for the group to fall apart,
I think that’s, in my opinion, that’s what brought ’em together. And I think that’s
what made a lot of the people in the members of the Young Lords that were not
still convinced that it had to be a political organization. I think that incident made
them realize that if the Young Lords was to survive and the young people in the
Young Lords were to survive, they had to become a political organization. And I
think that’s when we got a lot of the people that were rejecting the idea that you
always put out. I think that made ’em change. And I think that from there on the
activities, so the Young Lords really began to take off.
JJ:
So you’re saying that [00:27:00] there was some people that were not in favor of
making the transition into the Young Lords. What were some of the reasons that
that --
OL:
I remember that you had the idea -- you went around talking to each of the
members, but there were people that were not convinced that the Young Lords
were to make that transition. I think they wanted to keep it as it was -- just a
group of friends, maybe social, a social type of organization, and they didn’t
really want to bother getting political. And there was a good -- I think there was a
good strong group that were against the transition. I think from conversations
later with some of them, people like Sal, and [00:28:00] he’s open about that, and
he didn’t want to change. But I think he also accepts the fact that once the
incident of Manuel happened, that also made him think about it. And then he
12
�accepted the idea of making the transition. And I think there were other people
that followed him were in the same position. But I think that that incident really
made everybody change.
JJ:
And what was that incident?
OL:
When Manuel Ramos was shot?
JJ:
What I mean, what took place? Can you explain what you recall?
OL:
Well, I wasn’t there. I only got the phone call late at night that there was a party
going on with the Young Lords. Someone that lived next door happened to be
[00:29:00] an off duty policeman, and he complained that there was too much
noise. But it’s interesting because if it’s too much noise, you call the police on
you, and you have people quiet it down. But he was taking everything into his
own hands. I mean, he came out and he was armed. And when people like
Manuel and Ralph and others came out on the porch to find out what was going
on with this guy that was out in front of the apartment, he shot him. He was
armed. And you can tell it was without provocation because the guys were up on
the porch, I mean, they weren’t even down there confronting the guy. So it was
obviously that there had to be some racism involved in this. [00:30:00] Because
it was obvious that there was a Puerto Rican household, they were having a
party, the music was loud, and this guy was -- by the name of James Lamb, off
duty policeman -- came out to take action on his own without calling the police.
So I think that there was a lot of racism involved in that. And the fact that he was
an off duty policeman, I think he felt that he could do that without having to then
be responsible and accountable for his actions. And in fact, he never got
13
�convicted for that crime. But that’s what happened that night. And I think, again,
once we all got the call and we knew what was going on, I think that that made
us really think about it. And it was either fold up or get stronger. And I think that
the [00:31:00] majority of the Young Lords decided that it was time to organize.
JJ:
And how was that shown, for example, at the funeral and other?
OL:
Well, then again, and it’s unfortunate, but the death of Manuel really brought
people together. And you could see it at the wake, at the services at St.
Teresa’s. All of the Young Lords came out dressed in black, the purple beret,
and very disciplined. And I think that that was the first time that people publicly
saw that kind of discipline coming out of a youth group in the Latino community.
It was very disciplined. It wasn’t disorganized. It was very -- I guess you can say
it was very respectful of what was going on, but also it was very powerful. It was
[00:32:00] very powerful. The images were very powerful. And I think that that
was a sign of how fast the group began to mature. So after that, then all of the
actions of the Young Lords were really focused. They had an objective, and it
was very organized from there on, in the sense that there were collective actions
that were being taken after that. For example, we called the demonstration on
the police station on Chicago Avenue.
JJ:
Describe that.
OL:
And that was also as a result of the killing of Manuel. And we went to protest the
fact that nothing was going on in terms of the case. And we had [00:33:00] well
over a thousand people just marching. And it was overnight, you call people out,
and it was overnight they came out and we walked all the way from Lincoln Park
14
�all the way to the police station, that at the time was between -- on Chicago
Avenue between LaSalle and Clark. The police station, it’s gone now there, it’s
another building there, but that’s where the police station was. And we did that.
We had a massive demonstration. And the interesting thing here is that right
behind the march, because we went through Cabrini Green, right behind the
march, we had the Stones, I think it was the [Cobra?] Stones right behind -JJ:
What was the Cabrini Green?
OL:
Cabrini Green was one of the biggest housing complexes, public housing
complexes in Chicago. And [00:34:00] it was home to a lot of the gangs, AfricanAmerican gangs. The Stones were there, and I’m sure the Disciples were there
in another section, but we walked right through that project because we had had,
the Young Lords already had some communications with youth groups in the
projects. So we went through, but then I guess not all, not everybody knew that
we were friends. So right behind us were the Stones. So when we got to the
demonstration in front of the police station, we found ourselves boxed in. We
were in front of the police station on Chicago, but on the east side around Clark,
you had this whole line of policemen in riot gear. I mean, just blocking that whole
avenue. And then on the LaSalle side, you had all the Stones over here. So we
[00:35:00] were blocked in. And again, I think this is where, again, the maturity of
the Young Lords’s leadership showed up because people like yourself, Cha-cha,
Sal, and others, you had to come out and negotiate, and you had to explain to
the Stones, not to the police, they knew, but the reason why we were there and
what had happened to one of our members so that they understood why we were
15
�there. So after that, they understood. So that confrontation with them ended.
We just had the police on the other side to deal with. But the relationship with
the Stones developed as a result of that demonstration. And days later,
[00:36:00] when we decided that McCormick Theological Seminary as an
institution that was part of the group of institutions that was pushing urban
renewal in Lincoln Park, that it had to be taken over. The Stones participated
also with the Young Lords and the Poor People’s Coalition that decided to take
over McCormick Theological Seminary. So again, talking about the Young Lords
developing maturity, I think that was another sign. First, after the Killing, the
wake where you begin to, for the first time, you see a very well organized,
disciplined group come out public. And then the negotiations on the spot when
we had that demonstration in front of the police station, and then the takeover of
McCormick Theological Seminary all came. So like [00:37:00] in a string of
activities.
JJ:
What do you call what you recall about the takeover? Describe that.
OL:
Well, the Young Lords already at that point were identifying urban renewal as the
enemy. Urban renewal -- we already had identified urban renewal as the
program that was pushing people out of the neighborhood with the help of real
estate agencies like Bissell Realty, which was on Bissell and Armitage. And it
was run by Fat Larry, we used to call Fat Larry. DePaul University, McCormick
Geological Seminary, Grand Hospital, Augustana Hospital, Aetna Bank. I mean,
these were the institutions that, in that community that were the ones that were
pushing urban renewal. [00:38:00] And so the Young Lords saw that as the
16
�enemies. And out of all of those enemies, we saw that McCormick Theological
Seminary not only was one of the institutions, but they were a religious
organization, and they were probably one of the biggest slumlords in Lincoln
Park. And so other organizations like the, is it Concerned Citizens of Lincoln
Park? They already had their eye on them too, for the same reason. So we
came together also with the Concerned Citizens to organize the Poor People’s
Coalition and take over McCormick Theological Seminary. But McCormick was
one of the biggest slumlords in Lincoln Park. And so as a result of the takeover,
we presented also a series of demands. One of them was a housing project.
[00:39:00] Another one was Legal Defense, Legal Defense office. Another one
was a cultural center that we wanted. So out of those demands, we were able to
get some seed money to get an architect to do the designs for a whole complex.
If I recall, well, it was 72 units that we were proposing. And Howard Alan was the
architect, young architect at the time that consulted with community as to the
design of the apartments and talked to ladies and mothers about how they
envision an apartment for themselves. And he put it together. So now
remember the organization that was making [00:40:00] the decisions on urban
renewal, what houses were torn down and what projects went through was the,
let me see if I remember. The Lincoln Park Urban Conservation -JJ:
Community Conservation Council.
OL:
Yeah, that one.
JJ:
Lincoln Park Community Conservation Council.
17
�OL:
Lincoln Park Community Conservation Council. They used to be sort of like the
agent of the urban renewal, and they used to pass on projects. And so they were
the ones that were making decisions as to what areas of the community were
coming down and what families were being pushed out, really. So the Young
Lords also knew that they identified them as the ones making decisions. And
you remember one of the big actions was to take over one of their buildings, one
of their meetings too, [00:41:00] and not allow them to take any more decisions,
make any more decisions for the community. And again, that was another one of
the actions of the Young Lords that had a clear purpose and where the young
people participated. You always say that we had to rearrange furniture for them.
Yeah, I mean, it was a violent intervention because I mean, they were being
violent by pushing people out already. So it took another violent action to stop
them from making decisions. So that was another action of the Young Lords. So
this was the group that we had to go back to also with designs of the housing
project, after McCormick Theological Seminary agreed to give us some seed
money. I mean, remember the takeover took a week. It was a week that we
were in McCormick Theological Seminary until they negotiated. You remember
[00:42:00] we were there and they wouldn’t negotiate. In fact, at one point, the
president, McKay, threatened to bring in the police and get us all out. And we
came back and said, “Okay, well then if you bring the police, then we’re going to
move into the library.” And from what I gather, the library has, well, it used to
have this collection of rare religious books. I mean, really worth a lot. And
McCormick wasn’t ready to lose that because they knew that we were serious.
18
�So then they negotiated. They sat down to negotiate with our committee, and
that came out with the seed money for the housing project and money to
establish an office for legal assistance to our community, which later became the
People’s Law Office, which is still in existence today. [00:43:00] But that came
directly from the takeover of McCormick Theological Seminary. The cultural
Center never materialized, but that was again, another one of the actions of the
Young Lords that -JJ:
Why didn’t the police come right in and take them and take people out of
McCormick Seminary?
OL:
Well, I think it was two things. One was because it wasn’t just a little group of
people taking over. The coalition that took over McCormick Geological Seminary
was headed by the Young Lords. Yeah, but you had a lot of other people. LADO
was part of it. The Lincoln Park, the citizens, Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park
were part of it. There were a whole group of community organizations. It wasn’t
just one little organization. It was difficult for the police to come in on something
like that. The other one was McCormick [00:44:00] would be the one to call them
in. And when they threatened to call him in, that’s when we came back also with
the threat. And so they wouldn’t come in.
JJ:
You mentioned LADO was part of it. What role did LADO play?
OL:
Well, LADO -- it’s interesting because at the same time that the takeover was
going on, the Presbyterian church was having its national convention in San
Antonio. And so Obed, who was the head of the Latin American Defense
Organization, LADO, was sent, we sent him to San Antonio to present the
19
�demands over there in San Antonio. So that was going on. So it was -- the
engagement wasn’t just the confrontational engagement in Chicago, but we had
someone also participating in their own annual Presbyterian convention.
[00:45:00] So they couldn’t get away from not facing what was going on in
Chicago because we took it to their own convention. In that sense, LADO was
very key in making sure that the negotiations in Chicago happened.
JJ:
What was taking place inside for a whole week? I mean, what did people do for
a whole week inside a seminary that had been taken over?
OL:
Well, I mean, there were different things. The activities, like I remember people
getting together and discussing things because in those days, the kinds of
teachings were very in vogue. But the other thing that you have to remember is
that a group that participated and was very active in the takeover and was all
very active in the organizing of activities inside the McCormick was the
seminarians themselves, the students. [00:46:00] The students. And one of the
leaders was Tom Logan, who internally also organized students to support us.
So they were inside also with us. And they were also very instrumental in
developing little groups for discussions. And community groups were -community people were coming in to help. They would get involved. So the
whole takeover was not just one action, but what went on, the kind of education
educational process that went inside was also very important because people
understood why they were there. Of course it was being discussed as we were
there.
20
�JJ:
And then after that, there was another takeover of the church. Can you explain
what was going on with that?
OL:
Yeah. See, again, [00:47:00] so many things were going on at the same time.
JJ:
There’s a couple of churches that were taken over.
OL:
Well, the one church that we put our eyes on was the Dayton Avenue Methodist
Church. Again, remember, because the young people in the community needed
a place to meet, a place to develop activities. And the Hispanic pastor in the
Methodist church was approached so that we could use the basement. Just
either to have a daycare or have the guys come in and play softball, I mean,
basketball things to keep the youth active. But these people, they used to come
in on Sundays only and then close the church for the rest of the week. And what
we were saying to them is, “Open it up. Let us use the space.” And he refused.
[00:48:00] He refused.
JJ:
This was, who was that?
OL:
Sergio Herrera was the minister. Herrera was Cuban, a Cuban American, but at
the same time, they had the white congregation and the minister for the white
congregation was Bruce Johnson, who was a lot more receptive to us, to the
Young Lords and using the building. So when Pastor Herrera rejected our
request, we decided that we needed to take over that building too. And we
remember we we’re already coming out of the experience of McCormick. And so
that’s what happened. One of the Young Lords, Louis Chavez, was given the
assignment to sneak in the church, stay in the church, wait till they close,
[00:49:00] and after they closed, he opened up the doors for us. That’s what
21
�happened. Once they were gone, Louis was inside. Louis opened the doors.
We took over the church and we took over the church because we needed to
establish programs also. To begin with, when we approached them, we were
talking about daycare center. We talked to ’em about basketball in the basement
for the young people. So when we took over the church, we went about the
business of establishing programs for the community. One of the very first things
we talked about was the daycare center so that mothers could go to work and
leave the kids in the daycare center. There was a lot of mothers like that, but we
didn’t have the money, the funds to develop the daycare center to do the build
out. So you decided that we needed lumber, and there was a lot of construction
going on in Lincoln Park because [00:50:00] it was urban renewal. So you
picked a spot that had lumber, and you went over there with the truck, you got
the lumber, and you brought lumber, right, to the church.
JJ:
I’m glad we already did the time for that.
OL:
Yeah.
JJ:
That was a different case, a lumber case.
OL:
The lumber case was one, but we needed resources, so we needed to get the
resources.
JJ:
Why was the lumber case since they came out? I mean, what was the
reasoning? Just to get lumber? What was the reasoning?
OL:
No, no, because we needed lumber to do the buildup for rooms in the basement
so we could have the daycare center. We didn’t have the resources to go buy it.
So then you just decided to go liberate it. And the lumber was brought in and we
22
�did the build outs. There’s got to be some pictures of the nice little rooms that
were painted with nice [00:51:00] figures, children’s figures. But that’s what
happened. I mean, the lumber case was not because you were just stealing
lumber. It was the liberation of some material that some constructor or some
developer had in the neighborhood, and we brought it in to make use of it.
JJ:
So it was called a liberation?
OL:
It was the liberation of lumber. (laughs)
JJ:
Okay. Was there any building code violations at that time?
OL:
Well, when we started to do the build out, then of course the city, the city has it’s
code, but it’s crazy. When they came back, they told us we couldn’t have the
daycare center because the floor was too low, because then you had to come
down to the basement. The floor is too low, and then at the same time, they’re
saying the ceiling’s too high. So which is it? It’s [00:52:00] either the floor is too
low, or the ceiling’s too high. But they said, no floor’s too low. The ceiling’s too
high. It’s a violation. So they were giving us this type of violations and obstacles
so as not to open the daycare center, but we said, “No, we’re going to open up a
daycare center anyway,” because we were already on a confrontation course
with the city on something like that. But that was one of the reasons why we took
over the church, to establish programs. Also in the basement, that’s where we
started the Breakfast for Children. So in the mornings, the kids would stop by on
their way to school, they would fly right into the basement. We had long tables.
We used to cook breakfast with them, and they eat breakfast and go to school.
So that was our Breakfast for Children. That church also served [00:53:00] as
23
�our health clinic. We established our health clinic, the free health clinic, the
Ramon Emeterio Betances Health Clinic in that church. And we were able to get
volunteer doctors from Northwestern University. As a matter of fact, our Minister
of Health was a medical student, a Chicano medical student at Northwestern
Medical School. [Alberto Chavira?] was his name, is his name. And he helped
us get the clinic opened up and manned with people from Northwestern Medical
School. So we did that. And I think that we tried to also put a dentist services
there. We got the chair and everything. But that church, that used to be an
empty [00:54:00] space throughout the week, we filled it up with programs and
people were coming in. And that’s what we had also our education for cadres.
And see, that’s one of the characteristics of the Young Lords, whereas it was all
street people, but you were also very, very wise in getting people that came in to
join the organization and to develop the programs. And in this case, like an
education program for the cadres that was our Minister of Education was Tony
Baez, Puerto Rican from Caguas, from the Barrio Borinquén in Caguas. He
came in and he developed all the modules for [00:55:00] education, for the
cadres, the history of Puerto Rico, a little bit of readings of Mao, things like that.
But he’s the one that came in and put that together. So the church was also the
place where the young kids would have to come in, they had to read books, and
they had to participate in some kind of classes. And you remember a lot of these
kids, 16, 17 years old, they began to really become knowledgeable on the history
of Puerto Rico and the colonial relationship between the Puerto Rico and the
United States. And they could go anywhere. They could go to any high school.
24
�Matter of fact, one of them, you remember Mousey, I remember very well. He
must’ve been about 17 years old, and he was part of the health committee, but
he knew why we were doing a free health clinic and why healthcare was a right
[00:56:00] because he went through the classes. And he would go to
Northwestern University to the medical students and talk to them. And he was
17 years old and from the street. So that was going on this kind of education.
And we had people that put all these things together for the organization. And I
think that’s the unique thing about the Young Lords in Chicago, that from a street
group we’re able to develop conscientious, well-informed cadres that we had
them in the organization, they could go anywhere and talk about it anywhere.
We didn’t have a group of people that would be writing position papers on
everything. During that time, because the student movement in the United
States was so big, all [00:57:00] these radical students were always coming out
with position papers. A position paper on this, a position paper on that. I mean,
position papers were coming out of their ears. The Young Lords, we didn’t do
that. But we did develop a good philosophy in the organization. We knew which
way we were moving. We didn’t have to put it out in a little booklet, but our
organization knew which way it was moving. And I think part of the criticism that
we got from other leftist groups was that we didn’t come out with position papers.
The position paper on women, the position paper on housing position, paper on
this, we already knew. And we practiced it rather than intellectualize it. And I
think that that was the unique part of the Young Lords in Chicago, that [00:58:00]
it was action oriented, but it was action already based on knowledge on a certain
25
�ideology and a certain analysis of why we took over McCormick, why we took
over the church, why we confronted the police. I mean, it wasn’t just out of the
clear blue sky. It was out of an understanding of the relationship between the
organization and the power structure.
JJ:
Well, one of the things that people usually say about gangs is they don’t respect
women. So were there any women involved with the Young Lords?
OL:
Yeah, and I think, and also they came, again, the uniqueness of the Young Lords
in Chicago was that it was an organic organization. It wasn’t a put together
organization. And it was an organization that grew in the neighborhood. So the
same way that you had male members, you had female [00:59:00] members in
the organization. So when it becomes a political organization, you also have the
women aspect of the organization. And again, we couldn’t follow a white model
of women participation, which was going on like an SDS, Students for
Democratic Society. And that -- we couldn’t follow that model because the
female members of the Young Lords were not -- they were Puerto Rican, they
were Latinos. So a different model had to develop. But I think that good
example of how that female participation developed is in the group that
developed was called MAO, Mothers And Others. And Mothers and Others was
really a reflection of the female participant in the Young Lords. It wasn’t a young,
single students that were going to college. [01:00:00] There was young mothers
that were part of the Young Lords before, and they stayed in the organization.
They participated and they helped and they supported, but they also formed their
group, MAO, Mothers And Others. And they travel. The leadership like Angie,
26
�she traveled to China -- no, no, to Canada for this international women’s
conference. And they were active, but they were active in their own terms and
under a very special model for women participation, which is unique in the
organization.
JJ:
Do you remember any roles, I guess I’m thinking about the Black Party, but any
other roles that they played within the organization? [01:00:40]
OL:
Well, they were very supportive in all of the programs. [01:01:00] The clinic, for
example, they were very active in the clinic in taking care of patients. They were
trained too. I mean, people would come and train them on doing certain things.
So they would come in on the days that the clinic was open and they would
participate in that. And the Breakfast with children to the extent that they could,
because they also had children. They were active in that. So any of the
programs that we had, the presence of the women in the organization was there.
Also true, the leadership of the organization was all male, but there was a lot of,
well, Angie, but I’m talking about chairman, minister of Defense, minister
information. These are all males. But the participation, especially through Angie,
[01:02:00] was always there. And it wasn’t like in many other groups, it wasn’t a
inferior to the rest of the leadership. It’s just that they were being active in a
different manner.
JJ:
Okay. What about what was going on? How did the city respond to the young
girls?
OL:
Huh? That’s right. I mean, I think it was a shock to the city also to the powers in
City Hall to see an organization like the Young Lords become political. I mean,
27
�they had their hands full with the Black Panthers and then comes the Young
Lords. And not only that, but then the Young Lords start going around talking to
other [01:03:00] gangs about becoming an organization, not just with the Latin
Kings, but with the Latin Eagles. I remember we traveled even to South Chicago
to talk to the Saints, Harrison, Jens. I mean, we talked to every gang that would
listen to us about turning into a political organization. And we already had a
reason why an organization like the Young Lords would become a political
organization. So that’s what we shared with them. So all of this was not ignored
by the police, and I think that they really saw the Young Lords as a real big
threat. Big threat to the way they dealt with youth in our community, because
then they weren’t going to be dealing with little gangs. They were going to be
dealing with organizations. And I think that [01:04:00] they made the decision.
When Daley declared war on gangs, mayor Daley, the father, decided that it was
going to conduct a war on gangs, but it was really a repression of a political
movement among youth street youth. And that’s the way that the city decided to
deal with it by repressing it. And in the case of the Young Lords, it was not only
through arresting most of the leadership of the Young Lords, you yourself at one
point had 39 cases in court. And that was one of the way of dismantling an
organization by making sure that whatever funds we had, we had to use bail
money, whatever time we had to deal with programs we had to spend in
[01:05:00] court. So that was a way of dismantling the organization that weren’t
gangs. And they were always after us. I mean, when at the church we had 24
hour a day surveillance. I mean, there was a squad car parked outside the
28
�church for 24 hours a day. And sometimes when we used to walk out at church,
maybe at one, two o’clock in the morning, because maybe we were working on
the newspaper or working on some, developing some leaflets, we woke out at
one, two o’clock in the morning and they would stop and dead of winter, they
would stop us and make us put our hands on the hood of the car. When the car,
I mean, it was like the below zero. It’s cold. It is cold. I would just put my hand
just above the, so, but they would come in and say, no, boom, put him on the
hood. So it was that [01:06:00] kind of harassment. It was a constant
harassment. It was a constant repression of our group. And as a result, then
they were also dealing with the groups that were active with us. They were doing
the same thing to them.
JJ:
Okay, what do you think we should, we’re kind of finalizing it. What do you think?
Or do you remember anything about the campaign? We can go to the campaign.
When we were underground, what were you doing when the rest of the group
was underground?
OL:
Okay,
JJ:
Why did the group go underground?
OL:
Right? When the police, the FBI, the GIU, the gang intelligence units and all
those people were successful [01:07:00] in dismantling the organization, then
there was a decision that, well, you went on underground, you left, and while you
were traveling around the nation, that was your contact, whether if you were in
California, I knew that you were there and who you were with. If you were in
Boston, I knew what you were doing there. So during that time also, all the
29
�organizations that had been active above ground were rethinking, and I’m talking
about everywhere, not just in the United States, but even in Mexico.
Organizations like ours were rethinking tactics because whereas we were an
open above ground organization and everything that we did was [01:08:00] public
and an open, we saw that that was not possible anymore. So one of the things
that was decided was those that were still part of the organization, were going to
go on the ground and continue developing, studying, working, but developing or
at least maintaining the group alive, but not out in the open. So that’s what
happened at the time, I stayed in Chicago also, and I was one of the Chicago
contacts for that. During that time, what I decided to do was also go back to
school, and I became a teacher during that time that the rest of the members
were underground. But I was the one that, one of the people that kept also in
contact with the school, with a group [01:09:00] in Wisconsin until came time for
the group to surface again. And that’s when you decided to turn yourself in and
do whatever time you needed to do and then continue again above ground. With
the shift here with the Young Lords at the time was going into electoral politics,
not as, because we thought that was the solution, but because that gave us,
again, a platform to speak from about urban renewal, again, about other things.
So it wasn’t like, okay, we’re going to run Cha-Cha for Alderman because he’s
going to win. But it was, we’re going to run Cha-Cha for Alderman because
that’s going to allow us, again, to talk about the issues like urban renewal. As a
matter of fact, when you run for Alderman, the opposition, Chris Cohen then later
[01:10:00] became the secretary for Urban Housing and Urban Development. So
30
�I mean, we weren’t too far from the targets that we’ve always had in mind, but
that gave us, again, another form of educating communities. And we felt that that
was the way to do it. But I think that’s sort of like the next stage that the Young
Lords went into, and it was already a transformed group. But during the sixties
and early seventies, the uniqueness of the Young Lords in Chicago, the national
headquarters in Chicago, we’re unique in the sense that the organization inspire
and it gave the youth a model to follow. So I think that the [01:11:00] Young
Lords really impacted a whole generation of Latino youth that later on they
became active in their own terms. And some of ’em went into health, some went
into education, some went into politics, but they went in already with the kind of
direction that the Young Lords had established. I think that if the Young Lords
had not been there, probably the Latino Puerto Rican community would have
developed, but it would have developed in a different direction than it did
because I think the Young Lords established the mood and established the
direction for the Puerto Rican community to move. And I think that was part of
the legacy that the young horse left [01:12:00] for our community. And the other
one is a lesson to people that the youth can come together, the youth can
organize, because we didn’t have any adult leadership in the Young Lords. But
as young people, you can come together, analyze problems, and have an impact
on your community. And I think that’s kind of difficult to do that today because of
all the factors that are at play in our communities. But we still have the Young
Lords as a model to follow. It’s a question of, again, doing what you did back in
1967, ‘68 of going person to person to person and explaining what needs to
31
�happen with the youth, what needs to happen with a structure, like a gang
structure. [01:13:00] But it is going to take not just one cha-cha, it’s going to take
several cha-cha to do that and revive
JJ:
Doing
OL:
The model, what you did,
JJ:
Administer of information, doing what everybody was doing. That’s what we did.
It did take a lot more people. The one thing we didn’t haven’t covered as part of
the repression was how was Reverend Bruce Johnson was killed? Can you
explain what happened then and what was the impact it had on you and some of
the other members group?
OL:
Yeah. Well, that was one of the things. This was in 2008, 2009, nine 2000
JJ:
September.
OL:
I’m already
JJ:
Actually, I’m sorry, October of
OL:
69. Of 69. October nine, October of 69, that’s when Reverend Bruce Johnson
was assassinated. [01:14:00] Him and his wife
JJ:
Assassinated. What do you mean?
OL:
Well, assassinated. He was killed. I think he was assassinated because I think
he was the, remember I mentioned that he was the one that was very receptive
to us in letters, come and come into the church and make use of the space in the
church. And when he did that, the Young Lords acquired a base and we rooted
ourselves in the community that way. I think that meant a lot to the power
structures because we were sort of becoming, let me use the word
32
�institutionalized in the community. We weren’t just a little group running around.
It was already a group that had a place. They had programs coming out of there.
And I think that there was a lot of opposition to us, not just from the police
department. I [01:15:00] think there were some right wing community groups that
were against us that didn’t like the things that we were doing. We love America
Committee that was right next door to us, and they would go through a lot of
garbage and take out little papers and then make a case out of a little diagram
that we would throw away groups like that. I think that the fact that we were a
leftist organization in terms of ideology, right wing Latino groups in Chicago,
didn’t like us either. And the organized right wing at the time in the Latinos, it
was not Puerto Rican, it was not Mexican. [01:16:00] It was mostly Cuban. So I
think that group didn’t like us either, but they didn’t strike against us. All these
groups didn’t come and confront us because it would’ve been different. It
would’ve been difficult for them to do that. But I that instead, they took it upon
Reverend Johnson and punished him for facilitating what we had. And I think
that he was killed because of his involvement with the Young Lords, him and his
wife. I mean, were stabbed to death, the way that they were stabbed to death
wasn’t like a robbery. I mean, it was a very intense, very, there was a lot of
anger in the kind [01:17:00] of wounds that they found in them. So it wasn’t like
you come in, you stab ’em and they run away. I mean, it was somebody that was
angry at Bruce Johnson and the multiple stab wounds were not, I mean, they
were very passionate. Very passionate. It was someone, or some people that
were very passionate about what Bruce Johnson represented or what he had
33
�done. That crime was never solved either. But I think that, personally, I think
that it was as a result of his involvement with the Young Lords.
JJ:
Do you recall the Young Lords trying to work with the police to try to solve the
case or,
OL:
I mean, we never away from [01:18:00] contributing to the solution. I think that
right after they were killed, the first thing that they would say, well, probably it
was Cha-Cha that did it, but you were in jail at the time. That wouldn’t stick that.
But then the organization, we wanted a solution. We wanted to find out who had
done it, so we’re not going to obstruct that kind of investigation.
JJ:
Okay. Anything that you want add that hasn’t been tested?
OL:
No. I think what.
JJ:
You’re doing today or as a result.
OL:
Of your work, I think that the fact that today a lot of university students, high
school students, [01:19:00] a week ago I spoke to seventh and eighth graders in
the grammar school in Pilsen, who are studying the Young Lords. The fact that
there’s an interest in the organization today, after how many years? 30, 40, over
40 years that we’re active. It means that the impact that the Young Lords had as
an organization in our community is really positive. And people are eager to find
out who are these guys? Who are these young people that did this, and how do
they do it and why? And is it possible to replicate that? Seventh and eighth
graders, when I talked to them, they were talking about, well, how can that be
done again? And so they’re thinking, see, and I think that’s a good sign. They’re
looking at the model. [01:20:00] There’s a model for them. And so out of those
34
�young kids, one of ’em is going to come out and start organizing at some point,
and they will have the Young Lords as a model to follow. So I think that we’ve
left a good legacy for other generations. Like right now, the interest is the
history, but I think that other people are going to take it as the model to
implement again with the young people today.
JJ:
Okay. That was excellent. Interview the part before.
END OF VIDEO FILE
35
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf9601271fe6f3b551f6d5ab599eff4d.mp4
c89de508fe7f2ef08446af8a1d327c46
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Omar López vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
Omar López era el Ministro de Información para los Young Lords. Nació en México y llego a chicago en 1958, estableándose en el vecindario de Humboldt Park donde sigue viviendo. El primero conoció alguien de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park cuando estaban en las calles como una ganga puertorriqueña. López los vio de nuevo cuando los Young Lords se transformaron, oficialmente en el 23 de Septiembre de 1958, de in ganga a un movimiento de los derechos humanos. Esta vez los jóvenes estaban protegiendo a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y Fred Hampton (del Black Panther Party) quien estaban hablando juntos en Loop Jr. College donde López estaba peleando por los derechos de los estudiantes y educación bilingüe. López se hizo parte de los Young Lords en 1969. En 1973 el fundo el Mexican Teachers Organization. Señor López continúa trabajando por los derechos de Latinos y emigrantes. En 2006, el corrió por el Green Party como candidato para la Case de Representantes de Illinois, del 4th distrito. El 10 de Marzo del mismo año el reunió una de la más grandes demonstraciones, de gente que luchaban por los derechos de los inmigrantes de clase obrera, en la historia de los Estados Unidos. López continua siendo proactivo en la aria de Humboldt Park, derechos para inmigrantes, la “Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), y los Young Lords. El es el director ejecutivo de CALOR, una clínica para Latinos que han sido afectados por HIV/AIDS u otras enfermedades.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Estudiantes--Derechos Civiles
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Lopez_Omar_1
Title
A name given to the resource
Omar López video interview and transcript, interview 1
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
López, Omar
Description
An account of the resource
Omar López was Minister of Information for the Young Lords. He was born in Mexico and first came to Chicago in 1958, settling in the Humboldt Park Neighborhood where he has lived ever since. He first met some Young Lords in Lincoln Park when they were hanging out on the streets as a local Puerto Rican street gang, and later when the Young Lords were providing security for Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Fred Hampton (of the Black Panther Party) who were speaking together at Loop Jr. College where Omar was a student and fighting for student rights and bilingual education. Mr. López joined the Young Lords in 1969. In 1973, he founded the Mexican Teachers Organization.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexican Americans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Students--Civil rights
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-02-07
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives