443 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/02a33e0d11e84786e6917df5db6fc1c5.m4v 762eadfcb326f7151fc7716b6e34ee14 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fd690ff8c4fbe94b316a094a290317f9.pdf 78c9a96e40294955733a5f7f93d6fc52 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Robert Knight Cold War-Post Korean War 1 hour 1 minutes 32 seconds (00:01:50) Early Life Pt. 1 -Born in Decatur, Michigan on March 28, 1933 -Ancestors settled in Decatur in 1828 (00:02:08) Service in the Air Force -Enlisted in the Air Force -Discharged from the Air Force with the rank of staff sergeant (00:02:22) Grand Rapids Home for Veterans -Resident at the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Arrived three months prior to the interview date -Doesn't enjoy living there -Nothing in common with the other residents (00:03:10) Early Life Pt. 2 -Went to school in Decatur -Started school in 1939 -Father owned and operated the family's 2,000 acre farm -Father came from a wealthy family -Lost a lot of money during the Great Depression and people asking for money -Farm buildings are still standing as of interview date (2016) -Father studied at an older college in the eastern United States -Also studied at the University of Notre Dame -Graduated from high school in June 1951 -After high school he worked in Kalamazoo, Michigan at the Gilmore Brothers Department Store -Worked there for one year -Moved to Chicago to learn how to asses antique pewter and silver items for Marshall Field & Co. -Worked as an assistant buyer of antiques -Did it because it interested him and he enjoyed the work despite it not paying well (00:06:56) Life after Service Pt. 1 -Managed contracts for Loyola University -Did that for ten years after the Air Force -Mostly did grants for the medical school (00:07:33) Enlisting in the Air Force -Enlisted in the Air Force on March 3, 1953 -Didn't want to be drafted into the Army (00:08:05) Basic Training -Sent to Sampson Air Force Base for basic training -Near Geneva, New York -No heat in the barracks, so it was very cold -Base was located on Seneca Lake -Didn't enjoy the military very much, but would rather be in the Air Force than the Army -Recruits came from all over the United States, but most were from the Midwest -Most of the training instructors (Air Force equivalent of drill sergeant) were good men -Remembers one TI that he didn't like �-Rural background, uneducated, and generally unlikable -Basic training lasted eight weeks (00�:10:26) Technical School -Sent to technical school at Francis E. Warren Air Force Base near Cheyenne, Wyoming -Old base built in 1867 -Quartered in some of the original buildings -Trained there for two or three months -Studied property accounting and material services for the Air Force (00:11:40) Joining the 1st Pilotless Bomber Squadron -Sent to Patrick Air Force Base, Florida to train with a guided-missile unit -Stationed there until he was deployed to West Germany -Unit size was 600 men -He was part of the 1st Pilotless Bomber Squadron -Later attached to the 36th Fighter-Bomber Wing (00:13:29) Stationed at Bitburg Air Base Pt. 1 -Deployed to Bitburg Air Base, West Germany in March 1954 -Near the ancient city of Trier -Located in western Germany -Known for wine making (00:14:58) Promotions in the Air Force -1st Pilotless Bomber Squadron was relatively new which led to easy promotions -Quickly ascended through the ranks -At the end of his enlistment he was offered a $2,000 reenlistment bonus -Declined because he had no interest in staying in the Air Force (00:15:40) Stationed at Bitburg Air Base Pt. 2 -He worked in the supply section -Ordered supplies, parts, and equipments for the squadron -Had a manual to go by for ordering materiel -Squadron had B-61A Matador missiles -Stationed at Bitburg Air Base for two and a half years (00:16:38) Travel in Europe -Traveled all over West Germany -Met some interesting people and old German families -Old aristocratic families -Had never seen extravagant houses like that -Befriended some family members from the von dder Marwitz noble family -Often a guest at their home on the Rhine River -Learned that members of the old aristocracy hadn't had to fight in World War II -Visited family friends and relatives that lived in a suburb of Copenhagen -Part of an Air Force program called, “Meet the Danes” -Danes had wonderful food and wine -Stayed with the Bjerregaard family that was from Jutland, Denmark -Wife of the family was an accomplished pianist -Family had served as part of the Danish Resistance -Spied against the German occupation forces -Lived in a small house -Good gardeners and cooks -Spent every major holiday with them and bought presents for the children -Learned about the ancient Norse mythology �-Visited Rome with a priest who served as a courier to the Vatican -Spent two weeks in Rome and ate his dinners in fine restaurants (00:24:54) Maneuvers -Went on maneuvers while at Bitburg Air Base -Enjoyed the rations until he got sick on them -Went on maneuvers around Bitburg -Had gone on maneuvers in the United States, so it didn't come as a shock to him (00:25:35) Deployment to Germany -Sailed to West Germany on the USS General Harry Taylor -Troop transport -In service until 1993 -High waves meant they had to stay inside the ship, or risk getting swept overboard -Had to hold onto food trays, or risk losing your food during a meal -Had to find something to hold onto while taking a shower, or risk falling onto the tile -Took nine or ten days to cross the Atlantic Ocean -High winds during the voyage (00:27:50) Stationed at Bitburg Air Base Pt. 3 -Bitburg had been the location of a German base from World War II -Quartered in one of the barracks -Across from the base chapel and it was a good, clean building -Base was expanded during his time there -Squadron grew from 600 men to 1,000 men (00:29:13) Missile Testing in Libya -Tested missiles in the Sahara Desert -Remembers going swimming in the morning before it got too hot in the afternoon -Squadron asked for volunteers to go to Libya and he decided to go -Sent to Tripoli -Very old city -Forbidden to go into certain parts of the city -Went anyway out of curiosity -Arabs were friendly people, but easily offended -Operated out of Wheelus Air Base (now Mitiga International Airport) -Former Italian air base called Mellaha Air Base, used by the Luftwaffe in World War II -Had problems with Libyans sneaking onto the base and stealing supplies -Stationed in Libya for one month -Made sure the unit had enough supplies for missile testing -Ordered parts while at Bitburg -Parts had to be shipped over from the United States (00:34:13) Food -Had some German food served at the mess hall in Bitburg Air Base -Allowed to go into Bitburg to eat -Tried Bitburger Premium Pils beer -Food at the mess hall was pretty good -Had German cooks and some could speak English (00:35:50) German Civilians Pt. 1 -German women gravitated toward American servicemen and saw them as potential husbands -Some German women served as informants for the German government -Most German civilians didn't express negative opinions about the U.S. to American servicemen -Remembers going into a bar patronized by Germany Army veterans �-Not friendly and didn't go back -Bitburg had been frequented by Nazi officials during the Second World War -There were some people in Bitburg that still had sympathies for the Nazi regime -Predominantly Catholic population in Bitburg (00:38:33) Commendations -Awarded the Good Conduct Medal -Awarded the Army of Occupation Medal (00:39:05) Cold War Politics -Some German women worked as informants for the East German government -Tried to get American servicemen to tell secrets -Bitburg Air Base was in far western Germany near Luxembourg -Distant from Berlin and relatively removed from Cold War issues on the border (00:40:05) Contact with Home -Wrote to his mother -Father was dead by then -Wrote to friends from high school -Communicated by way of letters because they were virtually free -Could call home, but it cost money, and he enjoyed writing letters -Wasn't too bothered about being away from home -Enjoyed seeing the places where his family came from (00:41:17) Prostitution Pt. 1 -Luxembourg was popular with servicemen due to prostitution -Some prostitutes in Bitburg also worked as informants -Shunned by the community (00:42:13) Downtime in Bitburg -Spent time at the Non-commissioned Officers' Club -Had excellent food, beer, and wine -Better than the Officers' Club -Excellent wine country in Bitburg -A lot of white wine due to red wine required a lot of sunlight (00:44:20) Prostitution Pt. 2 -Other airmen invited him to Luxembourg -He went a few times, but wanted to save his money and didn't like the idea of paying for sex (00:44:59) Fellow Airmen -One of his bunk mates was from the American South -Had a few girlfriends in Luxembourg -Another one of his bunk mates had a Luxembourgian girlfriend, but was married -Non-commissioned officers were allowed to have alcohol in their barracks -He kept a case of beer under his bed and had a beer when he got up in the morning -Good man despite some of his dysfunctions -Remembers his third bunk mate was nicknamed, “Peanuts” (00:47:17) German Civilians Pt. 2 -Had a girlfriend who was from East Berlin -Frowned upon by the Air Force -Maternal grandmother was from Germany -Learned how to speak High German through her -Impressed and surprised Germans with his fluency in German (00:49:44) End of Service & Coming Home -Left as individuals according to their enlistment length �-Got discharged early and was home in time for Christmas 1956 -Left Bitburg Air Base and was discharged in New York in December 1956 (00:50:45) Life after Service Pt. 2 -Returned to Decatur, Michigan -Studied at Michigan State University for two years -Excelled in languages and social studies, but disliked complex mathematics -Majored in language and literature -Studied at the Chicago Academy of Fine Arts -Went back to work for Marshall Field & Company as an assistant buyer -Did it because he enjoyed the work -Worked at the Michigan Avenue store in downtown Chicago -Remembers a work was stealing from the company and selling it to another business -Robert discovered a secret set of duplicate keys -Man had worked for Marshall Field & Co. for a long time -Ultimately got fired, but was not arrested -Worked at Morningside Antiques in Santa Fe, New Mexico -Helped them get organized -Worked for them for several years after leaving Chicago � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KnightR1937V Title A name given to the resource Knight, Robert James (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-31 Description An account of the resource Robert Knight was born in Decatur, Michigan on March 28, 1933. He enlisted in the Air Force on March 3, 1953 and received his basic training at Sampson Air Force Base, New York. He received property accounting and material services training at Francis E. Warren Air Force Base, Wyoming and then went on to Patrick Air Force Base, Florida where he was assigned to the 1st Pilotless Bomber Squadron. The squadron was attached to the 36th Fighter-Bomber Wing and was deployed to Bitburg Air Base, West Germany, in March 1954. He worked in the supply section at the base, went on maneuvers, and went to Wheelus Air Base, Libya for missile testing in the Sahara Desert. He left Bitburg Air Base in December 1956 and was discharged in New York in that same month. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knight, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erichsen, Wallace (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8806f856313d3d98a2501587b4b8d4ce.pdf 0f970b53a9876e83251cf79df529af03 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Andrew Knott Cold War 10 minutes 25 seconds (00:00:05) -Born on September 5th, 1940 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. -Served in the US Army during the Vietnam War. -Highest rank achieved of E4. -Four siblings in their family. -His father was a carpet installer, and his mother was a housewife. -What was it like growing up during World War II? -Remembers his uncles coming home on leave from World War II. -Recalls the lack of bubble gum due to sugar rations. -Reusing tin cans etc. -A lot of displaced people in the area from the Netherlands. -The Berlin Wall was built around when he was 20. -Drafted in July, 1961. -Sent to Fort Knox for basic training. -Next sent to Fort Carson, Colorado. -Intended to be trained for 105 artillery. -He was given the role of a cook. -He was given a status with a “permanent pass”. -When the 5th infantry Division was reactivated he was sent to Headquarters Company as a cook. (5:00) -As a cook they worked with every other weekend off. -Their group went on maneuvers as well. -Swift Strike was one such maneuver in North/South Carolina. -There for a month. -Later they were on the way to California for a maneuver when the Cuban Missile Crisis made them return to base. -Their supply sergeant returned from Saigon, Vietnam as the Vietnam War was about to begin. -He is classified with the V.A. as a Vietnam veteran, however he was in the military for only the beginning of Vietnam Era. -Some duties: washing pots and pans, cooking for the generals. Orderlies would serve. -Used a truck with an electric refrigerator and propane stove thanks to the abundance of electric generators on base. -Generals were not hard to get along with. -Left the military in July, 1963 not long before the Kennedy assassination. -At Fort Carson they were building NORAD nearby at the time. -After leaving the service he worked selling/installing carpet. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KnottA1818V Title A name given to the resource Knott, Andrew Thomas (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-23 Description An account of the resource Andrew Knott was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on September 5th, 1940. In July of 1961 he was drafted in the period just before the Vietnam War. Entering the Army, he was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training and Fort Carson, Colorado for artillery training. In the 5th Infantry Division he was a cook. In his time in the military he went on several maneuvers and experienced the threat of the Cuban Missile Crisis. In July 1963 he was discharged and left the military. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knott, Andrew Thomas Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Knott, Jonathan (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04bd778bf8d3ffa35b076661b707433f.mp4 5c35bf301a3d884b94747080ecb258d9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01002baffc3296bcd24735a65601216c.pdf 787386436d37731f17e40e9ec600193a PDF Text Text Koehl, Phil Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Era Interviewee’s Name: Phil Koehl Length of Interview: (56:37) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Phil Koehl of Hoffman Estates, Illinois. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Phil, to begin with give us some background on yourself. Start out [with] where and when were you born?” I was born in Oak Park, Illinois in 1953. The only reason it was Oak Park–– I lived in Chicago–– was because the hospital was across the street from Chicago. Interviewer: “Now, did you grow up in Chicago or did you move around?” Yeah, in Chicago. The Northwest side. Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living when you were a kid?” My dad was a truck driver. Then, my parents got divorced and my stepfather was a carpenter. Then, eventually my mother bought a pet store so I got a job at the pet store. Interviewer: “Was your dad in the service in World War II?” No, after that I think. I’m not very good at this. Interviewer: “Because you have an interesting picture of it––” Yes. He was in Malta and it had to be in the 40s. So, yeah I guess at the end of World War II. He got injured and Princess Elizabeth, at that point, visited him in the hospital. Interviewer: “That might possibly have been a little bit after the war ended–– or at least when it got safe to go travel down the Mediterranean for her.” �I think so, yeah. Interviewer: “That’s a little bit unusual there. Where did you go to high school?” I went to Lane Tech High School. 5,000 guys. My class was 1,100. People who went to Lane go, “I had a dad who went to Lane. Did you know him?” I’m like, “I got 1,100 guys in my class. I didn’t even know all of them.” (1:54). Interviewer: “What year did you graduate?” 1971. Interviewer: “So you’re in high school while the Vietnam War is sort of ebbing and flowing a little bit. How aware were you of all that?” Very aware because I was in ROTC in high school. It was very odd–– every Wednesday we had uniform inspections, so we had to wear our uniform on the bus, all the way to school, and it was very odd. Interviewer: “What kind of responses do you get on the bus or elsewhere?” Both positive and negative. You know, some people were like, “Good for you.” Other people were like, “Baby killer.” It’s like I’m ROTC, I’m a high school student, you know, so it was very odd. At one point we had–– as ROTC the school asked us to stand by all of the fire alarms for the day because this SDS was supposed to come and “free us” from the tyranny of education. Interviewer: “So how did you wind up in ROTC?” It was either that or P.E., and my thought was that I’d rather march around than do push-ups and pull-ups and things like that. Interviewer: “What did the ROTC high school curriculum consist of?” Marching around. We actually had a gun range in the basement of the high school so we–– we had M1s that we took apart and put back together again and things like that. Cleaned them. Knew how to do the nomenclature of guns and things like that. Interviewer: “What sort of people were instructing you?” Current NCOs. We had a couple NCOs who were in charge–– Army. (3:48). �Interviewer: “Did they say anything about anywhere they’d been or what they’d done?” They talked a little bit about it. I mean most of the classes were like 50 guys, so a lot of it was student leaders–– student officers–– who would run us through drills and stuff like that. Occasionally, as I got to be a senior, I got to spend more time with them and would hear stories about where they’d been. I don’t remember them being real proactive about trying to enlist us into the service. Interviewer: “Once you graduated, what did you do?” I went to work and went to work for 70 hours a week at a steel training plant. I learned quickly that I didn’t want to work that hard the rest of my life. I would rather work smart than hard. Interviewer: “70 hours a week?” Yeah. Interviewer: “How was that even legal?” I don’t know. Interviewer: “Did you get overtime?” I did. I did, but you know, I needed the money. I had moved out when I graduated into my own apartment, so I needed the money for rent and everything. Like I said, I soon learned [that] I needed to go to college. (5:12). Interviewer: “Was the draft still going on at the point when you graduated?” I got a number, yeah. Fortunately I never got called up–– I had a fairly high number. Interviewer: “It didn’t last too much longer after ‘71.” It didn’t, yeah. Although, I enlisted in ‘73 and it was still going on. Interviewer: “I think that was right about just at the end because it was something that Nixon did before he went out of office in ‘74, was to end the draft. So the draft was out there but you were not at risk on a level you would have been a couple of years earlier.” �That may be true, but we still got a number. I remember going with a friend and going, “This could be bad.” You didn’t want a real low number even if you weren’t going to go. (6:01). Interviewer: “Now by this time they have the regular lottery in place, it was just done by birthday?” Yes. Interviewer: “In the meantime though, off to college. Where did you go to school or did you go to school?” No I didn’t because I couldn’t. I couldn’t afford it. So, I decided I needed to go to college and I ended up enlisting. Interviewer: “What branch of the service did you choose?” Air Force. Interviewer: “Why the Air Force?” Because their uniforms are blue like my eyes. Honestly, that’s mostly true. I went to one of those recruiting offices that had all of the services and I interviewed all of them. The Army would give me the best deal because I had four years of high school ROTC and they would give me two stripes. [But] I just like the Air Force. [The] Navy, I can’t swim and the Army seemed like walking around a lot and the Air Force seemed kind of cool, so I went with that. They gave me one stripe the moment I came in. Interviewer: “So when do you actually enlist?” I have an odd sense of humor–– I wanted to go in April 1st, but that wasn’t available. I took April 2, 1973. Interviewer: “Then once you enlisted, what happens to you after that?” Apparently–– because I had one stripe–– I had to carry all the documents for all the guys going from Chicago down to Texas where we were getting basic training. At one point we stopped–– I remember this vividly–– we stopped and we were told to stay on the plane and don’t get out, you know. I got these documents and you don’t know what’s going on. One kid got out and he goes, “I gotta go get something to eat.” I go, “No. You can’t. I got your stuff.” He goes, “I’ll be back.” �I sweated the whole time. He finally got back just at the last moment and I’m thinking, “I would have gotten in trouble if he had not come back because I had all of these documents.” (8:15). Interviewer: “Yeah. You would have lost him already.” Yes. It was horrible. I had one day in–– an hour in–– and I’m already losing people. That’s not a good thing. Interviewer: “Where are they doing the training?” Down in Texas at Lackland. Interviewer: “So Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio?” San Antonio, yeah. Interviewer: “What sort of reception do you get when you arrive at Lackland?” Everybody’s on the bus, everybody goes into a classroom, nobody knows what-the-heck is going on. They talk to us, yell at us, and everything else. I don’t think it was like until two-in-themorning or something before we finally got to bed. You know, to our dorm or barracks and got into bed. It was not a good day. Interviewer: “Now, were you being processed or were you just being lectured to?” Lectured too, I think. Yeah, because we didn’t even get uniforms or anything until the next couple days. So it was just them telling us what we need to do, what we’re supposed to do, blah blah blah. All the rules and I’m like, “Okay.” We’re all sitting there–– one, very tired and two, kind of scared because it’s the unknown. Interviewer: “In the Army and the Marines they would do a variety of unpleasant things to people when they first got there. Including [putting] them in bed at four and getting them up at six or something like that. So, what happens to you in the next couple of days?” From my experience, and the people I know, the Air Force is a little milder than the Army and the Marines. We went to bed at about two and then we got up at six. Interviewer: “Then you get haircuts, uniforms?” (10:03). Oh, yes. Haircuts. Haircuts and then uniforms. �Interviewer: “1973 haircuts–– that might have generated a lot of hair.” Most of the guys had hair until they got through the barbershop. Then it was just bald and I don’t think that’s a good look for anybody. We were not a pretty group. Interviewer: “Yeah, but you all kind of look alike at that point.” We did. Well, now that’s the point, I guess. Everybody’s supposed to look alike, you know? Interviewer: “Now, when you’re there did they do any kind of aptitude testing or had that all been done ahead of time?” That had been done ahead of time. Interviewer: “When you enlisted were you allowed to pick any kind of training specializations or––” Yeah. After the aptitude tests they said, “Here’s your areas that you’re strong in.” I have to admit, my recruiter lied to me. I’m probably the only one that's ever happened too. But he said, “Yeah. Pick anything you want.” I go, “This radio communications analysis specialist sounds kind of cool, but I’ve got family in Arizona. Are the bases in Arizona?” “Oh yeah. We have a lot of Air Force Bases in Arizona.” Well, if you’re a radio communications analysis specialist there’s no bases in Arizona that you’re going to go to. So, oh well. Interviewer: “Now what is the actual basic training for the Air Force like at that point?” Up at six, go to breakfast and then do exercises or marching or classes. You know, military customs, military courtesies, those kinds of things. Then lunch, then dinner, and then after dinner we spent most of the time polishing our shoes and making sure everything was straight in our locker. (12:07). Interviewer: “Do they come and inspect the barracks and your cots and all of that?” Yes, they did. Unbeknownst to my drill instructor, he didn’t know–– training instructor is what we called them–– he didn’t know that I had one stripe. I wasn’t going to say anything because I assumed they know everything and they know what’s going on, so I didn’t say a word. But, I did end up being assigned as squad leader and so I was kind of responsible for helping the eight or ten guys in my squad make sure everything was okay. One of the biggest things was when you buy clothes, you get those little “inspected by” tags. Well, uniforms are the same way. They have those in there and we were told specifically you had to get all of those out, you know. One day I �went through the whole squad–– and they kept finding these things, the training instructors. Every time they went through they found these things and I’m like, “This is crazy.” So, I specifically went through every guy’s stuff–– every pocket–– and there was none. The training instructor comes in [and on] the first guy they find six and I’m going, “No. They weren’t there before.” He goes, “What are you saying? Are you calling me a liar?” I go, “No. I’m just saying they weren’t there before because I checked them all.” I was a bit of a challenge during the training instruction. Interviewer: “Now do you get any instruction that really has anything to do with the Air Force in terms of flying and aircraft?” No. It’s basically just customs and traditions and the “rules of the road” kind of thing. Nothing related to flying and/or our job–– at that point in basic training. (14:02). Interviewer: “What did they do with people when they screwed up?” They’d have to do extra drill or they’d get extra KP. They’d have to work in the kitchen more, things like that. Like I said, the Air Force was absolutely mild compared to everything else. I might have screwed up once–– kind of. There was another squadron that was next to us and they were our “sister squadron.” There was always a competition between us and them–– who was the best. You had to put your shoes below your bunk and they had to be in a perfect line with the post of the bunk, so that if you put a board at the corner of the bunk, all of the toes of the shoes had to touch. But, allegedly, we weren’t supposed to have a board–– but we did because that’s how we lined up our shoes. We had to hide it whenever the other inspector came in. Well one day, unfortunately, he showed up a little earlier than I expected. I was holding this eight-foot, one-by-four, board in the middle of the room and I knew I was going to get in trouble if he saw me with it, so I ran out the fire door and went running down the stairs–– not knowing what I was going to do with this board. Right at the bottom of the stairs was our “sister’s” squad leader and he’s like, “Where are you going with that?” So, they yelled at me. I think they thought it was funny more than anything else, although they didn’t let that on to me. But, I just got yelled at. Interviewer: “How long did basic last?” It was eight weeks. Is that right? Interviewer: “That was standard in the Army at that point.” Six weeks. It was shorter than everything else, and I think that’s part of the reason I picked the Air Force too. They have the shortest basic training [so] I’m thinking that’s a good deal. (16:15). �Interviewer: “Once you complete basic training, what do they do with you?” Again, probably I’m atypical, but I waited around before I could go to tech school. I was on my way to tech school but tech school wasn’t ready yet for me. I ended up cleaning and painting and doing other tasks that needed to be done on the base for about two or three weeks, then I went to my tech school. Interviewer: “And where was that?” Goodfellow, Texas. Goodfellow Air Force Base in San Angelo, Texas. Interviewer: “Where in the state is San Angelo?” It’s the heart of West Texas. Interviewer: “So pretty much in the middle of nowhere?” The middle of nowhere. Maybe about two hours from Mexico. Interviewer: “Okay. How big was the base in terms of how many people do you think were there?” I’d be surprised [if] it were more than a thousand. I mean, it was small. Interviewer: “What kind of technical training were you getting there?” Our training was broken up into a nine-week section and a twelve-week section for a total of 21weeks. The first section was basic stuff because what they were doing at that point was doing our security clearances. What happened is–– they were doing our security clearances–– so it gave the FBI, or whoever was doing those, time to figure that out. At the end of nine-weeks, if you passed, then you went on to the next section. If you didn’t [in] the middle of the night you were gone. (18:04). Interviewer: “How are they actually filling the nine-weeks?” Really basic stuff. It’s just basic stuff, I don’t know. It was confidential but one of the things was typing. We had to type, and I didn’t know how to type, and the way the Air Force teaches you how to type is the keys on the typewriter had no letters and there’s a chart up on the wall. All you can do is just put your fingers on there and look up at the chart and hope your fingers are going where the chart is telling you they’re supposed to go. �Interviewer: “Did that work?” Yes. No, clearly it did. Yeah. It worked really well because I learned how to type. The other thing that happened too is–– typing was at the end of the day, so if you knew how to type you got to go drinking with everybody else. If you didn’t know how to type, you sat there for as many weeks as it took you before you could get 60-words a minute. Interviewer: “Aside from typing, were they teaching you sort of technical things relating to radios or communications or that kind of stuff?” Sure. Honestly, I don’t even remember what they thought of–– they taught us code and things like that. We had to learn morse code and things like that, so some of that was the basic stuff, you know. Of course, I had been a boy scout so I knew some of those already. Some are like, “SOS,” at least I knew it. We learned some of those kinds of things. (20:06). Interviewer: “Was there ever actually an occasion to use morse code once you were on duty anywhere?” What I did was top-secret, so I don’t know. I know it’s probably declassified at this point but it makes me uncomfortable talking about it and being specific. Interviewer: “That’s still a fairly broad kind of question.” Well, I can tell you–– and this tells you a little bit about the service–– I can tell you to this day verbatim, exactly what my job description was. The unclassified version. I would bet that if you look back 48-years or whatever it was and look it up, I’ll get it word for word. I monitored Air Force communications to ensure that there were no security leaks or compromises with the enemy. That’s not what I did, but that’s the story. Interviewer: “You basically spend nine-weeks of what is sort-of warm-up and basic skills and waiting you out. Now, you move onto your twelve weeks. Is this stuff that is gearing you toward that very specific job?” Yes. Yeah. That very specific job. By the time you get out of that 21-weeks, you’re ready to go. Interviewer: “What would you do when you were not training?” There was a lot of drinking. The nice thing about Texas is there’s some really great steakhouses. We loved going into the steakhouses. There was a lake nearby that we went too. One time a couple guys and I went down to Mexico for some souvenirs. Well one guy wanted to get–– �wanted to be in a relationship with a young lady for a short period of time. We also went camping, things like that, as a group. (22:18). Interviewer: “How did the people in the community view the servicemen on the base?” I think they liked us because we had money–– a lot of disposable income–– and we spent it. Because we had a place to live and we had food, so it's okay. Interviewer: “So whatever else you had you just spent––” Well then we were young and stupid and it’s like, “Yeah. Let’s go.” Interviewer: “Did some of the guys have cars?” I did. Yeah, some guys did and most didn’t. My roommate had a motorcycle. Interviewer: “Now if you think back at the time you spent in the various stages of training, are there other things that kind of stand out in your memory about those experiences?” To be honest, other than typing, I don’t even remember what they taught us. I do know that, as much as the 21-weeks were supposed to get you ready, you got to the job on your first base and you’re like, “They didn’t teach me this.” It’s like, “Okay.” You had to learn stuff but I got a basic understanding of what I was supposed to do. Interviewer: “In your case, you finish the twelve-week cycle–– where do they send you?” Well–– I’m gonna brag a little bit–– for the 21-weeks, we had a test every Friday. My average at the end of the 21-weeks was 98.54, so I was top of the class. Because I was top of the class, I got my choice. They did say, “You could go to Vietnam or you could go to Alaska or you could go to Florida or England.” I was like, “This is a no-brainer. I’m taking England.” They speak our language, it’s a foreign country–– you’re going to pay to fly me over? Party on. Let’s go. (24:25). Interviewer: “Can you say where in England you were based?” I was based at RAF Chicksands, which is in Chicksands–– which is near Shefford–– which is about 50 miles north of London. Interviewer: “Is this an area that–– a place that–– had been an air base during World War II or was it a newer facility?” �Okay. I was in the Air Force. In the four bases I was at, only one had a plane and that was a Cessna that the base commander used. I was in intelligence and so where I was wasn’t where the planes were. Interviewer: “What kind of living quarters and facilities did you have there?” We had barracks. Two guys to a room–– it had to be ten-by-ten. It couldn’t have been much more than that. Interviewer: “What was the routine like there?” The worst schedule I’ve ever had. Because we were intelligence and we had to man the base 24hours a day, 365–– we were on a rotating schedule. We worked four swing shifts. Took 24-hours off, then four midnight shifts, took 24-hours off. Then did four day shifts and then had 96 hours off. Repeat. Interviewer: “How many people were working a shift or to what extent were you on your own?” No. There were four flights–– Air Force flights–– abel, baker, charlie, and dog. One of them was doing one of each one of the three shifts and then one was off. I was on baker flight. (26:22). Interviewer: “When you were off, what did you do?” There might have been some drinking. We did a lot of things. The base was really good because it was just intelligence–– I mean that was our main focus and so they fed us incredibly well. Because we were on such a weird shift schedule, the mess hall was open all of the time. You could go at midnight and get like an omelette bar. Or if you wanted a steak, you could get a steak. It was just really good food–– and always available. The base would open things up like the movie theater because we’d get off at midnight–– especially that last one where you got 24hours to go. You don’t want to go to sleep right away because then you’re going to wake up at eight in the morning and then have to go to work at midnight–– that didn’t work out well. What we did was–– they would open up the theater [so] we could go watch movies. The bowling alley was open and there was a wreck hall–– all sorts of things like that on base that we could do. Interviewer: “Was this an all American base?” Yes. �Interviewer: “But there must have been a fair number of you there if they had all those kinds of facilities.” Yes. Interviewer: “Well there are no planes so you think, ‘Okay.’ Alright, that’s just a big operation.” Yeah. I would bet there were probably 300 people just on my flight. Then you’ve got a lot of support people as well, so. Interviewer: “Now would you, on the time off, was that–– would you get enough time off to go into London or anything like that?” Yeah. We did. Especially because we had that 96-hours off at the end, we had a chance to do a lot of stuff. Plus, we had our regular leave–– about 30 days of leave. You could take that in one big chunk–– which one year I did and two buddies and I rented a VW Bus/Camper and drove throughout Europe. (28:39). Interviewer: “So did you rent it in England and have to drive on the wrong side and then have to take it out of Europe with you?” Yeah. The hardest part of driving on the wrong side, which I had a car on base as well, the hardest part for me at least was backing out of a parking space and making sure I was in the right lane. Other than that, you kind of get used to it. Interviewer: “Then [you] go over to Europe and they’re driving on the right side of the road again.” It’s very complicated. There might have been one time when–– I think we were in Brussels or something–– that maybe I went in the tram lane rather than a car lane because I didn’t read the signs and I didn’t know. Maybe one time I was in a bike lane–– you know, there were a lot of things. Interviewer: “But did you hit anybody?” I did not hit anybody. Interviewer: “There you go. So how long were you based in England?” �I was there for three years. Interviewer: “Did you stay on that same base time or did you move around?” I did. The same base. In fact, it was a two-year assignment and then I just extended it because I was having such a great time. I got to know a lot of the locals, you know. We could go to the pubs and stuff in the town around us, so I got to know a lot of people. Interviewer: “What are the dates for when you go to England and when you leave?” It would have been December of ‘73 through December of ‘76. (30:11). Interviewer: “A bunch of different things are going on in our country–– in the world–– at that time. There’s the end of the Vietnam War, there’s all the Watergate and Nixon stuff, and all of that kind of thing. Then you get the bicentennial in 1976. To what extent did any of that stuff resonate with where you were?” I think they tried to make things as normal as possible. I mean, it’s a military base, so the Watergate thing, it was like, “Let’s not deal with that.” But the bicentennial–– we had a big celebration. It was kind of interesting because then the town people love to come on the base and see the fireworks and see us playing baseball and those kinds of things. Interviewer: “Of course, you were celebrating independence from England–– but they’ve gotten over it?” Yes. Yes. In fact, one time I was in Ireland in this little pub and there had to be maybe, at most, 20 people could have been in this pub. My two buddies and I were there and we were talking and as soon as we started talking the Irish guys were like, “Oh, Yanks.” We’re going, “Yeah we are.” He goes, “Because you guys are the greatest.” I go, “What made us the greatest that goes on during the Great War?” “You guys would go over and fly and bomb in the middle of the day. You didn’t care, but those damn English, they’d sneak over there at night.” I’m like, “Oh, okay.” I don’t think I had any responsibility for that but “Go Yanks.” Interviewer: “You’re there on a Cold War mission, essentially?” Yes. Interviewer: “Did you have any actual alerts or did you run drills periodically for what would happen if X or Y was going on?” �Yeah. It was the military, you’ve got to have drills. I think that’s the reason I didn’t re-enlist. There was nothing worse than getting off a day shift, maybe going into the pub and having more than a few pints of beer–– and they had really good beer–– and then coming back, going to sleep at midnight, and then [at] 2a.m. the alarms go off and you have to go up to the compound for an inspection and a drill–– but it was really just a uniform inspection. Then you’re up there from like two until like four or four-thirty, and you have to go back to work at eight. It’s like, “Now what?” [You’d] just go over to the mess hall and have something to eat and hang around. So, yeah. We had a lot of drills. (33:02). Interviewer: “Were there any situations where you really didn’t know what was going on or thought this might be something bigger?” We always thought it was something, but after a while–– I guess in the beginning we did–– [but] after a while you go, “Okay. Another uniform inspection.” But, the military trained you that we’re practicing because it could happen, so you’re always like maybe this is a drill and maybe not. You just never knew. Interviewer: “During the course of time you were there, did you get any promotions?” Yes. I ended up being a Sergeant. Interviewer: “For what grade of Sergeant? Just the lowest level––” E3. I came in as an E1 but see–– and here’s a problem–– at that point, because Vietnam was ending promotions were slowing down. So, it took longer for you to get them. I got it as quick as I could. I don’t think I was behind, but I wasn’t really motivated to do anything special. Interviewer: “Did you work with officers much at all or were you largely with a small group of enlisted?” Mostly enlisted. For our baker flight, we had a flight commander who was a second Lieutenant. [That] was interesting because he was almost as young as we were, so it was interesting. But we had to deal with the base commander because he was a weirdo. He would sit in his office with binoculars and watch people going up to the compound–– going up to work–– and if he thought your hair was too long, he would send the SPs to go get you and take you to the barbershop. (35:05). Interviewer: “The SPs–– that’s security police?” Security police, yeah. MPs–– �Interviewer: “MPs is the Army––” Yeah. We changed names. Interviewer: “Do you remember what rank he was?” He was a Colonel–– Colonel George. I don’t know his last name but Colonel George was his name and he was a haircut fanatic. Interviewer: “Well, he may not have had that much else to do.” That could be true. I mean, we did what we were supposed to do and so I don’t know that he really had much to do. Interviewer: “Did you have a group of more senior NCOs who were kind of almost permanent staff there or were most of you rotating in-and-out like you?” Mostly everybody was rotating into them. There were some day-shift people, but even they rotated in-and-out. We called them “day ladies.” Interviewer: “Were there any women personnel in the base?” Yes. Yeah. Not a lot. On our flight of 300 I would say maybe 40/50. Interviewer: “Did they limit what kinds of jobs they could have?” No. They were the same as us at that point. Interviewer: “Do you have any sense of how they were treated or how they got along with the male personnel?” [They] got along very well with me. No, they got along really well with everybody. I think it still was a pretty sexist environment, and maybe they got harassed a little bit more than the guys did. I was thinking of one example about it. If they were new and stuff, one of the NCOs would have them do the EMHo report. It’s like, “Hey, go around and check with all the guys what the EMHO status is.” [They’re] like, “Okay.” So they’d go around and have everybody give them what was “Early Morning Hard-On.” That was the report. So, you’d get things like, “Fine” or “hard today” or “six and going.” Everyone would give different things, and we could just be laughing. We did a lot of goofy things–– not just to the girls because in an eight-hour shift, there was not always eight-hours of activity. Especially midnight. Especially midnight on Christmas or �New Year’s, when the world is kind of sleeping. There’s not a lot going on. So we would do all sorts of goofy things. We had printer paper–– back in the old days–– with the edges with the holes in them that you could rip off. So, you rip those off and you get about 20 feet of that. Then you put a paperclip in one of the holes and make a hook out of the paperclip. Then, when somebody is walking by, you clip it in the back of their belt loop and then they go walking away with 30 feet of paper following them. It’s that kind of stuff that we just tried to entertain ourselves with. (38:39). Interviewer: “Did you ever do anything working with any of the NATO allies at all or the British?” Yes. We were good with the Brits mostly–– we were in their country. I don’t know if anybody else did anything else–– again being [in] security, you only did what you needed to know, so they weren’t going to tell you anything else. I dealt with the Brits, that’s what I know. I don’t know if we dealt with everyone else. Interviewer: “To think back about that time that you spent in England, are there other particular memories that stand out for you–– that you’re allowed to share?” I remember–– one of the things we had to do on midnight shifts is people had burn detail. Everything in that building got burned, nothing went out. Every piece of paper. If you had a Kleenex, it would get burned. So, one of the things midnight shift did was all these bags of accumulated paper and we would have to burn them. Then, not only burn them, but then clean out the furnace and make sure there were no scraps of paper that might have had some code or some magic message on it. That was annoying. Some of the things on the base were kind of normal. I ended up getting involved with the boy scouts and I was the boy scout leader for the troop on base. Then, one of the guys from the town, who was the scout master of the English troop, was my assistant. I was his assistant for [his] troop in town. It was nice, we had an exchange and stuff. It was nice. I learned how to ski in Scotland–– you know, one of those 96hour days or 96-hour periods. 30 of us from the same flight took a bus up to Scotland and would learn how to ski. So, we did a lot of traveling and stuff–– it was nice. (41:03). Interviewer: “And the British people generally liked you or?” They liked their income. The guys did not like the fact that some of their women liked us and wanted to get married to us so we could bring them back here. There was a little bit of grief there. I was telling a friend of mine a story last night. I went to this one pub–– always went to this one pub–– and back in those days they were on World War II hours where they would open up for lunch, eleven to two, and then they would close so the factory workers would go back, and then they’d open back up again seven to ten–– and then they were done. I spent a lot of time �there from seven to ten when I could during days. I got to know a bunch of the guys and it wasn’t until a year after I'd been going there, that ten o’clock came and the pub owner, Mike, is like, “Everybody hussle out.” He turns to me and goes, “Kid,”–– they’d called me the Chicago kid because I was from Chicago–– he goes, “Kid. Just sit there and drink your drink.” I go, “Okay” and I’m thinking there’s some weird tradition or something and I’m going to get in trouble here. He shuffles everybody out except for like three of the local guys–– regulars–– turns the lights off, locks the door, and goes, “If the bobby’s come just tell him you’re finishing that one up.” I go, “Oh, okay.” Well, we sat there until three o’clock in the morning, and that happened all the time–- if you were “okay.” It took me a year before they accepted me and said [I] can hang around. I mean it was a great experience. If I was the ruler of the world, I think every kid who graduates high school should have to go to a foreign country for a year. I don’t care if it’s Peace Corps or religious event or service or whatever, just to get that exposure. I think it’s a good experience. (43:20). Interviewer: “At what point–– I mean, did you ever consider actually staying in?” No. I think it was those goofy drills that just drove me crazy. It’s just like I don’t care if my shoes are shined or not, you know? Interviewer: “Was that still an issue on that base? Did you still have to go through all that spit and polish stuff?” A little bit, but because we were intelligence they were pretty lax. We didn’t have a lot of inspections. In fact, I remember in our dorm we could hire a maid, so the whole floor hired this maid and she came and cleaned our rooms. Interviewer: “But you did extend for a year?” Well yes–– at that base. Yeah, because it was like why do I want to go somewhere else? I’m having a good time here. Interviewer: “Since you still had time left on your enlistment, it was just a question of staying there or going somewhere else.” Yeah. In fact, I actually got out four months early because I should have gone till April but I got out in December because I got there in December. I stayed for two years and then extended for one year. Rather than extending me for four months they said, “See you later.” Interviewer: “Did you go back to the States at all during your time over there?” �I did not. A lot of the guys did. They’d go home for Christmas or whatever, but my attitude was I’m in England. I don’t know when I’m ever going to come back here. Chicago is always going to be there–– I’m going to go back and live there. So, I took the time–– all of the leave–– and traveled; Ireland, Germany, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, wherever. Any chance I could get. One time–– a friend and I had the same birthday–– and he goes, “Where do you want to go for our birthday?” I go, “Brussels.” He goes, “Okay.” So, we took the weekend and went to Brussels for our birthday. It was just that easy. (45:35). Interviewer: “How good was the dollar at that point? I mean how far did your money go?” Far enough. I think the pound was about two bucks. I think when I first got there it was about two-fifty per pound, and then I think it got down to less than two bucks by the time I left. Interviewer: “And as you went to different countries could they usually tell you were U.S. Military with haircuts and all of that?” Yes. Yeah, generally they could. Although, we had to be careful while traveling. Especially because of our clearance. We couldn’t go over or into any country that was hostile to the United States–– we had to be real careful. Interviewer: “So you’re basically in Western Europe–– but did you get to Switzerland?” Yeah. We went to Switzerland. I went to Switzerland [and] Austria. Interviewer: “Did you get to Berlin?” No–– couldn’t. Interviewer: “Well, you could go to West Berlin but that would get more complicated.” Yeah, no. Berlin was off the list. Interviewer: “Now, you kind of get to 1976––” In fact, I remember this. We could travel on our military ID and we didn’t need a passport, but we were highly encouraged to get a passport so that people couldn’t tell that we were military. One time, I was going to take a picture in my uniform for the passport and they were like, “Nope. Not happening. Put on civilian clothes.” So, we did. (47:29). �Interviewer: “Did you notice at any place, any kind of leftover counterculture hostility to military or anti-war stuff?” No. I don’t remember any of that. Interviewer: “Well it didn’t affect Europeans the way it did us to begin with–– it wasn’t their war.” No. Most everybody was pretty friendly and helpful. I remember in France with the VW Bus–– this was just towards the end of the trip, you know we had made a great circle, we were coming back. We’re in the middle of France somewhere and the engine blew. Of course, the other two guys and I didn’t speak that much French–– none, we’re just ugly Americans. So we’re at the side of the road in this VW Bus and there’s oil all over the place and this one couple stopped and the guy came out. My two friends are trying to explain to him that they think we blew a rod or something in the engine. He’s looking at it and he goes, “Oh, oui-oui oil.” They’re going, “No. No, I don’t think it’s oil.” I was talking to the wife and I was trying to figure out how to tell her it was the engine instead. Finally, I said, “Engine kapu.” She goes, “Oh. Oui-oui kaput.” Then she explained to her husband what had happened–– the engine ca-put. The weird thing was, they spoke English. I mean, they knew English but they didn’t feel comfortable speaking it. I asked him, “Would you take me to a phone so we could get a tow-truck?” You know, “Oui-oui.” I sat in the back of their car and they would talk to each other in French and confer, and then they would ask me a question in English. Then I’d give them a question and they’d confer again and so they were really nice. They took me to a pub–– or a bar–– and we got a tow-truck to come. Then, they found us a bed-and-breakfast to stay at. The people at the bread-and-breakfast were incredibly helpful, you know, calling the repair shop, calling the automobile club to say we need another vehicle. I mean so yeah, I think people were really friendly towards us. (50:03). Interviewer: “Because they were also in the French provinces and in the provinces they’re often nicer than they are in Paris.” Yes. I got stuck in an elevator in Paris once, but people there were friendly, although they did say it would take three hours for somebody to come and repair the elevator. I don’t think that was hostility, I think it was just the repair guy lived out in the suburbs or something. Interviewer: “Anything else from the European trip here that you can throw in?” I have many stories–– most of them–– you know, it was just such a great time traveling with the friends and experiences that I’ll remember forever. �Interviewer: “So, you get finished. Were you able to negotiate the four-months early out or did they just offer that?” That’s pretty standard. Interviewer: “Then when you get out, what do you do?” A couple of the guys said, “When you get out, you can apply for unemployment.” I’m like, “What are you talking about?” They’re like, “You can get unemployment because you’re––” I go, “Really? Okay.” So I applied for unemployment and it bothered me that I was doing it, but at the same time I was like I can sit around and watch TV at home and you’re going to send me a check for doing nothing? I mean it was really hard to say that [it] doesn’t make sense. I did that for a while, but in the meantime I was really waiting for college to start. I ended up going to college then. Interviewer: “Where did you go to college?” I started at University of Illinois - Chicago [and] hated it. It was way too big, a lecture hall with 300 people with a professor about that size at the bottom of the hall. I always felt that you could have died and nobody would have noticed you, unless you actually slumped over into the aisle. I didn’t like that. I went there for a year and then I transferred to George Williams College which is a smaller university. In the meantime I had no clue what I wanted to do, so I went to the VA because I knew they had career counseling. They go, “You should be an outdoor recreation guy.” I go, “Oh, okay.” I started kind of doing that and I was thinking that I don’t know I want to be outdoors when it’s 30 degrees. So, I ended up moving into social work. (52:55). Interviewer: “Did you wind up with a career as a social worker?” Yes. Yes, and the VA helped me with my tuition and books and all that kind of stuff. I ended up graduating with a master’s degree in social work and I became a school social worker and had a career doing that. Interviewer: “Are you with Chicago Public Schools?” No. Suburban high schools. Interviewer: “And which suburbs were you in?” I was in Roselle, Wilmette, Wheeling, Mount. Prospect. �Interviewer: “And when do you retire?” I retired in 2010. Interviewer: “These days, you spend a lot of time on a boat?” I do. Yeah. I retired early because I had just had it. I was done. I retired earlier than I should have. Retirement is such a weird thing because it’s like why are you retiring when you’re too old and not in the shape you were in when you were eighteen to do stuff. I retired early thinking I would maximize my time. Ended up–– a couple years ago–– I bought a boat, so I spend a lot of time on my boat now. (54:19). Interviewer: “At the beginning of the interview you said something about not being able to swim.” Yes. Interviewer: “How do you go from not being able to swim to living on a boat?” Yeah–– a good point. My previous boat was a sixteen-foot canoe with a trolling motor, and so I had a farm that I used as a getaway when I was working. Then, when I retired I didn’t have any reason to get away and so I sold the farm and I had this chunk of money. I thought, I could do the adult thing and invest it or I could buy a winter house, or I could buy a lake house. I couldn’t find any lake houses that I liked and so–– because I’m not a morning person and I don’t like sunrises, I like sunsets–– I couldn’t find anything on the right side of the lake that I could do. One guy had a boat and I thought, “Ta-da.” If I had a boat I could go see the sunset anywhere and so I bought a boat. Before I did it, I called my two best friends and I went, “Yeah. I can’t swim–– 16 foot canoe. Thinking about buying a big boat, what do you think?” They’re going, “Yeah, good idea.” I was hoping my friends would have better sense than I did but really they know me well. Interviewer: “But you still don’t swim?” No. I’m like a rock, you know. I mean I have taken swimming lessons and it’s like, “Okay. Just grab your knees and we’ll do the jellyfish float and you’ll just float up to the top.” Well after about three or four minutes on the bottom I’m going, “This ain’t working. I’m done with this.” Interviewer: “But no fear of water in the meantime?” Well–– no. Not if I got a boat around. No, I tend to wear my life jacket all the time, just because. �Interviewer: “While you could not devote state secrets, you could tell us quite a bit about what your life in the military was like and that’s really what we’re doing these things for. So, I would like to thank you for sharing the story today.” You’re welcome. (56:37). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KoehlP2327V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koehl, Philip C. II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08 Title A name given to the resource Koehl, Philip (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Philip Koehl was born in 1953 in Oak Park, Illinois. Koehl grew up with his family in the Northwest side of Chicago. Koehl’s father was a truck driver, his stepfather a carpenter, and his mother owned a pet store which Koehl eventually got a job at. After graduating from Lane Tech High School, where he participated in ROTC, in 1971, Koehl then got a job working at a steel training plant. However, Koehl eventually enlisted in the Air Force April 2, 1973. Basic training took place at Lackland air base in San Antonio, Texas. It was after this training when Koehl went down to Goodfellow Air Force Base in San Angelo, Texas and began receiving specialized training for his position as a radio communications analysis specialist. After finishing technical training Koehl was given the opportunity to travel to a variety of different locations and ended up at Chicksand Air Force Base in England. Koehl stayed here until April of 1974 when he was discharged from the service. Upon his leave, Koehl returned to school and got his Master of Social Work. He then worked as a social worker for his career up until his retirement in 2010. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/82e93c6aa22b12224abe83bfa7c5f4ae.m4v 3a0f8d1a4ac2727564525dd860a92b1b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0dc95f4bf3f7d9e2a3863a3a169f12d1.pdf c336506f4976e68db916b21ca1ef0b29 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee: Bill Koetje Length of Interview: 02:01:59 Background              He was born in Kalamazoo, MI in December 18, 1921. He father worked in a paper mill and his mom was a stay at home wife. He is the oldest of 5 children. He graduated high school in 1940. Once he graduated, he would work in a grocery store, in all different positions. He still lived with his parents at the time. He knew a lot about what was going on in the war at the time. In fact, his military career would start in 1937 or ’38 when he joined the CMTC, or the Civilian Military Training Corps. The government put up this program. He was out at Camp Custer for ten weeks. He would get out of school and go there for training. They didn’t get paid, but had a regular military life. They drilled all morning. In the afternoon, they would do classwork. The first thing they learned about was military regulations. He was supposed to go four summers and graduate from the program. This would automatically make them a 2nd Lieutenant. Then they had to spend 16 years either in regular service or the reserves. Then the draft started. In 1940, he was expecting a war, especially with all the things that Hitler was doing. He enlisted in the Marines in 1941, but they rejected him because of his feet, they had too high arches or something. 30 days later he would receive his draft notice. He had two weeks to get his things in order. From there he went right out to Fort Custer and he was inducted into the service. While he was there he had to take an IQ test. When he was finished he was put on a train to Fort McClellan, Alabama Training (6:40)     The farther south he went, the hotter it got. Otherwise he did not remember much. He had to stay on the train the whole trip. The camp itself was a nice place. It was not like other camps, in the sense that it did not have barracks and such. Instead the men lived in huts. When he got down there, he was sitting on the curb, waiting to get his uniform. There was a big guy there who was being a bully, stepping on their toes and such. He warned the man to stop, but he did not. �                     So, he started hitting the guy. When his captain saw him, he ran out to them and grabbed him off the man. The captain held him at arm’s length, when he told his captain to let him go. He said “You can order me around but you can’t man-handle me”. The captain informed him that they would speak later. He would finally get his clothes and get his bed ready along with everything else. He would report back to the captain who started asking him questions about where he learned his military knowledge. He was not cooperative, and told the captain that his records from the day he was born until that moment were with the military and he would tell him when he was ready to ship out. That would put him in quite a spot, though he did not get any sort of punishment. He would spend 6 weeks in basic training. When he was offered the option to stay there as a cadre, he said no. He had made too many enemies with the current cadres there and did not want to fight them all the time. They sent him out to Fort Benning, Georgia. He would join the 101st Airborne Division. He was 20 years old. He would go through all their training at jump school. When you were there you did not walk anywhere, you would have to run to every place you went in order to help harden you up. Then they would start calisthenics; push-ups, push-ups and more push-ups. They were not rough on the soldiers, but it was rough training. He would also learn how to pack his own chutes. When he was getting ready to make his first jump on the airplane, a jeep pulled up and called his name. He was ordered to come with them. When he reported to the colonel, he was asked old he was. He was 20. The colonel was relieved that he did not make that jump. In order to do jump school he had to be 21 or have parent’s consent. At that point he was sent to Camp Butner, North Carolina and joined the 78th Infantry Division. They had just activated the division and he was the first one there. Troops would slowly join them. When they had enough, they would begin training. At this point he was still a private. That was the one thing he could not stand about the Army, it was the poorest paying job in the world. He got to North Carolina in November 1942 and stayed there until the following September or October. He was accustomed to living military life. He wasn’t homesick or anxious about things. He was able to leave base and go into town. He wasn’t always a good boy. After the passes were signed and stamped he would take 10 or 12 of them. When the coast was clear, he would go to town. (18:10) While he went to town, he would spend a lot of weekends with a guy he knew, who owned a big house. He called him Doc. Doc would almost figure out that he was sneaking passes. He had a lot of fun out there during the weekends. In fact, he would have picture of him and some other guys who were also from other areas of Michigan. He would go home to visit for Christmas before being transferred to Fort Meade, Maryland. �                He was made a sergeant after he got there. He would work processing soldiers before they went overseas. He would work in that job for about a year. So far, he had spent two years in the military in the US. He was still at Fort Meade when D-Day happened. This made the men more worried about going overseas. It was right after supper one night, and suddenly the guy upstairs came running down to his room and told him that there was a guy with a pistol warning that he’d shoot anyone who would come near him. He thought about it for a few minutes and he went up alone. The man had crawled into his bed and under the sheets. He would go up to the man and demand the pistol, butt first. At first the man did not comply, but eventually he gave up the pistol. He emptied the gun and took the man to the orderly room. They called the hospital and had the man taken to the hospital. The man resisted and would only go if he went with him. So he did. When they got to the hospital, he told one of the ambulance drivers to go get a straitjacket. They got him in the jacket and they took him off. He doesn’t know what happened to him from then on. There was another incident when an Indian stabbed the guy in the bunk next to him. I caused a lot of commotion. (25:35) He went to the hospital with the man who ended up getting 4 or 5 pints of blood. He would stay with him there for a couple of days. Eventually the guy got better. There was yet another incident when a man threatened to jump off a balcony in order not to go overseas. He ended up pushing the guy who fell and was fine. He told him to stop with the funny business or next time he would push him down head first. The man did not give him any more trouble. He would have to deal with men like this all the time, because they got into a mood. Otherwise he had a great time while he was there. The men who worked under him would often ask for passes to go to New York, Boston or any other areas around there. He would look over the charts and see who had KP or guard duty. If you did not have either of those, he told you to disappear. He did not want to see you until Sunday evening around 7, when you needed to get checked in again. The men really appreciated it. He would visit Washington D.C. It was a free city, where you did not have to salute, transportation was free and the Pepsi company would have a big building set aside for entertainment for the soldiers. The town itself was interesting. He went to a lot of different places there and saw a lot of things. This would all come to an end when he was ordered to go overseas. His namewais at the top of the list. A colonel that he knew would find his name on the list and would order him to go home to Kalamazoo for a couple days and come back when they were ready to ship out. Europe (31:30) �                   He would ship out of Fort Dix, New Jersey, on the Queen Elizabeth. Since he was on one of the fastest ships on the ocean, the ship would go without an escort. Because he was a sergeant, he had to stay in the “white” area. 12 hours he spent with the 13 other guys in the room and the other 12 he was rotated out onto the deck, where he would take his blanket and sleep. The weather was good, and that ship could handle anything. There was one time when the soldiers were very lax. You were supposed to carry a life preserver wherever you when on the ship, but they did that very half-hearted. When they got to Scotland, someone started shooting and it scared the daylights out of them. They really scrambled for their life vests then. There was not a problem with seasickness on the way over there, but on the way back, it was huge. The ship anchored off of Scotland and had to take smaller boats to get to shore because the ship was so huge. They couldn’t go straight to the English Channel because the Germans would have sunk them He was then sent by train to Liverpool. From there he was sent right away by boat, across the English Channel. He landed in La Havre, France, where he would stay about a day and half. He was taken right up almost to the front lines, where he joined the 100th Infantry Division as a replacement, just outside of Dijon, France. His first experience under fire was quite a different experience than he was used to. He was scared to death. When he got off the train and started marching out to the front lines, he would have American fire going over his head. They were all scared that it was incoming fire. When they got to the front lines, he learned quickly which outgoing fire was and which was incoming; you can tell by the sound of the shells. His division was assigned to the 7th Army, which had come up from Southern France. They were supposed to join with France’s 1st Army. When he joined them, he went to his captain. The captain asked if he could handle a machine gun; he said yes, and was assigned to carry ammunition. He was too scared to tell him that he was a sergeant, so he did as he was told. He would carry ammunition for a couple of days when a runner would come up to him and tell him that the old man wanted to see him. He went back and he was assigned to take over a section, two machine guns. (40:00) His buddy, Gordon Roberts, would be assigned to the mortar section, but they did not use mortars a whole lot because of the Germans heavy fortifications. Instead they would use other stuff. His unit was always on the go. They had the Germans on the run, which he liked because their back to them, which means they wouldn’t shoot at them. Whenever they took over a town, they would fortify the town and fool around a bit. A lot of the civilian population would hide in the basements. One time a woman came screaming out of a basement. She didn’t speak English, but he understood “baby.” One of the women down there was having a baby, and he pointed her toward the medics. The Germans would counterattack a lot. One night, the counterattack was absolutely wicked. You couldn’t get out of the hole, and you didn’t know where they were at. �                    He just had his guns keep shooting all night. The Germans were coming at them with foot soldiers. The next day one of the soldiers had hung up his rain coat on some nearby brush. It was always wet there and it was in the middle of winter. So he hung his coat up and when it started getting dark, someone started shooting the coat, thinking it was an enemy. When they finally got the guy to stop shooting, the coat was all torn up. He sure didn’t miss his target. It was the winter of 1944-1945. It was difficult for them to get food. The people who were supposed to bring food to them on the front lines were reluctant to get close. So instead, he had to send a couple of guys at a time back to them to get some chow. They would come back and he would send the next two, etc. (46:00) They would try to get C rations, but sometimes they would get K. If they ate K rations they would often times get sick. He would have a lot of trouble with men getting sick from trench foot and frostbite. It was 17 degrees on the front line and all they had was wool coats and standard boots to keep them warm. He wore 3 pairs of OD’s on, 3 shirts and a field jacket just trying to stay warm. His hands were so cold that he could hardly fire his rifle. He had been fighting real well there and pushing the Germans back until he hit Biche, France and hit the Siegfried Line. They also fought in what had been the Maginot Line. The little pillboxes there would give them a lot of trouble. It was difficult to take them out. They tried bombing one once. They bomb skipped over it and exploded near them and he got a concussion. They were there for 2 days when they got self-propelled cannons. They started hammering on the side of these things, like at the side of a mountain. This would work. They finally blew a hole in the thing in the morning. They would then get orders to attack. He would run point on the mission that day. He would work with a full-blooded Indian, a good soldier, who would cover him. He would work his way up to the newly blown hole when he would run into two men with pole charges; explosives at the end of a pole. They would make it up to the wall where the Germans couldn’t get them. They were having trouble reaching to where the charge needed to go, so he would help them set up the charges. He would get the charge into the hole and BOOM! He would then do the same with the second pole charge. He would get a bronze star for bravery in this event. When he got back to his line, the medic would notice a really bad limp. He didn’t notice anything, but when the boot came off, his foot swelled right up. So he was tagged and sent back. Once they got into one of the pillboxes, which were all connected, they would blow their way through the rest of them. He was then brought up to the First Aid Station. He was there a little while. Not much excitement then. �                    He was in Sarrebourg, France, a little town. There was a French Garrison there. They cleaned out some stables and put cots in there. Army beds were brought up around Christmas time. They felt very special at the time. They would also clean him up a bit. He did not have time to shave, so they shaved him. He told them to just cut his clothes off. He got different clothing. The nurses were singing Christmas Hymns and they turned off the lights and enjoyed the moment. There wasn’t a dry eye in the place. A twin engine bomber flew over and dropped two bombs, hitting the barracks and the stables. Only 4 people lived that day. He would finally come to in Paris, when he realized he was alive. He was in the hospital for 4 months recovering from frostbite and a concussion from the last bombing. He doesn’t know how he was alive. He felt like he was hit by a 10 ton truck. He remembers grabbing the mattress and covering himself in a corner. It was probably what saved his life that day. When he was in Paris, the Battle of the Bulge had started. When he came to, there were 4 doctors trying to decide what to do with him. One wanted to send him back to the States, the other three said that he wouldn’t make the trip. So he was sent to a hospital in England instead. During that time, he was stuck in bed the whole time. While he was there he got himself into some trouble with a Lieutenant who had called for attention. He had learned in school that a soldier in the hospital was not a soldier, but a patient, so he didn’t pay any attention. The Lieutenant was very upset by this. They exchanged a few words and the guy left. He would return. Before the Lieutenant got back he found a hand grenade. He took the powder out to make it harmless. When the guy came back he handed him a supposed ready-to-blow hand grenade. He never saw someone turn so white. That stirred up a big fuss in the hospital. He wanted to see a Chaplain, but the nurse was ordered by the guy not to get one. She was eventually convinced otherwise by him. He was then visited by a large man, a colonel who would inform them that he was not in trouble and would be transported to another hospital by the end of the day. While he was in England, he would go to a pub and had some good times. (1:00:00) He would end up almost being court martialed while creating some trouble at the pub. He had another ordeal there before he could go back. Soldiers had to fire a rifle and mortar before they were seen fit enough to go back overseas. When he got to the rifle range, a $20 bill was offered for the best score on the rifle range. He won that money. The officer who offered the 20 wanted to know how he knew he was going to get the money. He said that he spent 3 weeks in a rifle program, where you had to score between 95 and 100 points. He had quit the program because he shoulder hurt so much, he could hardly hold his rifle anymore. Shortly after that, he got on the boat and went into France. He went back to his unit that was now in Germany. His regiment had new orders to stop a German unit that was trying to come through Italy. �     On his way there he was shot at. When he shot back, a man came running out of a house. He did not last very long. At that point, most of the Germans were surrendering to the Americans whenever they caught up with them. As they were getting farther into Germany, the civilian population would hide in their wine cellars. They would stay out of sight of the Americans as much as they could. After the war had ended they were ordered not to fraternize with any of the Germans, civilian or otherwise. There was a $50 fine for disobeying the orders. They ended the war in Urbach, Germany near the foot of the Alps. After the War (1:18:00)                 They would patrol a long highway between two of the towns. The Americans that were there would go through everything. One kid found a motorcycle and wanted to ride it so bad that he did. He didn’t know how to stop so he crashed and broke his ankle. There was one time when someone started to shout warnings and the whole village went absolutely chaotic. He and the others spent almost 2 days trying to calm the people down and get things back to normal. They stayed there about a month. When he first got there, he did not see in civilians. After they had set up a cooking station, he was sitting on the curb eating his food when two little girls showed up. Suddenly he could not eat. He had such a big lump in his throat, he just had to give them his food. They would show up while he was eating for about the next for days. He didn’t eat so they could. One day they had formation and while he was there he toppled right over. Out like a light. They couldn’t wake him up right away, so he was taken to a hospital. When he came to, a captain started yelling at him for drinking too much. Luckily, his men were there to inform the captain that he didn’t drink. They believed that the captain owed him an apology. When he got back, the report told his superiors that it was malnutrition. So he had to be supervised when he ate. When he would go get seconds, he would give it to the little girls the food and tell them to eat at home. When it was time for him to leave, the girls heard about it. They found him and gave him two little dolls. He still has them today. The worst part about the whole thing was that the territory was being turned over to the Russians, who were ruthless. They then went to Kemen, outside of Stuttgart. He had a nice time there and made some nice friends. The autobahn went right through the city, so they had to police the autobahn. They would stay the Burgomaster’s house. The house was emptied before he was allowed in it. But when he got in there he found a gold watch. He would return it to the lady of the house and she was very grateful. He was treated like a king. While they were there, the townsfolk had a dedication ceremony. Where there was a Swastika flag, there would then hang an American flag. During the ceremony he was �                     called forward to receive a special honor. A little girl, dressed in her Sunday best would put a ring of flowers around his neck. There wasn’t a dry eye there. (1:29:30) He was there about 3 days for a quartering party when the troops came in. While he was there, a guy came up to him screaming “Come to my house!” It was against the rules to go and they would be fined for disobeying the command, but they were willing to do it. He got to the house and they wanted to give him wine. They ended up leaving, but didn’t know what he wanted. They got themselves a German-English Dictionary to figure it out. It turns out that he had captured this guy and treated him decently and had even brought him to the American medics. He said that he wanted to pay him back. The man ended up giving him gold handled sword that he would send home. He would stay in the army until February. He would move around and ended up staying at Esslingen from August or September until February. They would live in a school building, using the cots of the Army Garrison there. There was a lot to do there. There is much chaos after the war and millions of people displaced, and none of them knew where to go or what to do. Many of them were starving too. It was chaos. These people were from all over Europe. It was rough dealing with the Russians there. He was on police duty 24 hours a day, trying to keep the peace. They got buses running and got coal brought in for hot water and coal. They got reorganized there and were scheduled to go to Japan. As they were ready and on the train to go when a colonel got on the train and told them good news: the war in Japan was over and bad news: they were staying there. So they had to get off the train and unpack everything and went back to the school house until February. In the middle of the city there was a big pool that they got working and would go down there all the time. They would even hire a masseuse once in a while. They were living like kings. The lives of the Germans were slowly getting back to normal, especially when they found out the American soldiers were not mean or anything like that. He would also have to shake up the houses, which means they would go from house to house and search for weapons. They found some too. (1:42:00) Some of the Germans did not like the American soldiers and would attempt to separate the soldiers from the group. While they were there, they were ordered to turn in their live ammunition. It went on for a while until a colonel was walking in the street and was attacked by a couple of kids in the streets. He went to help the guy and eventually live ammunition was brought back. Once day while he was out he spotted some kids trying to corner him. He clipped one in the butt and took off. Later 11 of them were rounded up and taken to interrogation. He was finally allowed to go home in late January. He would go home on an old grain boat. While he was at the school house, a captain and another soldier hat gotten into it. He broke it up and got in trouble with the captain because he had spoken out of turn. He was � then assigned to guard the other solder in the fight the whole way home, which was under arrest. While he was staying in Marseilles his gun was stolen and he had to go and get it back Going Home (1:52:50)      The trip back was awful. A motor stopped working and they had to use the compass to tell where they were going to land when they hit land. When they were taking roll call on the ship, the guy taking it suddenly got confused of which one was the prisoner and which one was the guard, because the other guy was holding the gun. The man was worried about the prisoner running away, but he convinced him otherwise. When he got home he had no ammunition left, he had shot them off. He had to pay 35 cents per round. He told them to go jump in a lake. They would be assigned to a barracks and get cleaned up. He would then get to call home to talk to his family. Two days later he was on a train to Atterbury, Indiana where he was discharged. He was given $300 and a kick on the butt goodbye. Post Duty (1:55:45)          Looking back, he lived through the depression, went into the service and he was a kid who wasn’t anything. Going into the army would change his life. He learned to get along with people. He went from having nothing to $50, clothes and it was amazing. CMTC changed his life as well. He learned discipline and how to live with people. It was a big adjustment. He came home and it was a big letdown. He spent 42 months in the service. He had to sleep in a bed by himself and it was very different. He didn’t have a job. He did eventually get one, but it was very poor pay. He felt like he was going backwards instead of forward. He would also go to school for a year at Central Michigan University. He got a 4.0 average. Uncle Sam has really treated him good since then. They take care of his health and medical bills. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KoetjeB Title A name given to the resource Koetje, Bill (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koetje, Bill Description An account of the resource Bill Koetje served in the Army during World War II. He was drafted in 1942 and initially trained as a paratrooper, but was not yet 21 and was transferred to an infantry unit, where he did well enough to stay on as a trainer rather than ship out with his unit. He was then assigned to Fort Meade, Maryland, to supervise recruits who were about to be sent overseas. He finally shipped out himself in the fall of 1944, and was assigned to the 100th Division in northeastern France. He led a machine gun section and was involved in heavy fighting against German fortifications, and was wounded and evacuated. The aid station that he was sent to was bombed, and he was sent to England. He rejoined his unit in the spring of 1945, and served with the Army of Occupation in Germany until the end of the year. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-04-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26d3c20dac47c6c5070ce96cb26513fe.m4v 9dd53964cebc6661f67f5e62d658ecf1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1dc3cf0252b06ef539372b9acfa447c2.pdf ac5a802d39681575815057f99818af1d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II Wilbert Koetje Interview Length: (01:09:40:00) Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:25:00)  Born in Marion, Michigan in 1922 on his family’s farm (00:00:25:00)  Growing up, he worked on the farm, then at a lumberyard (00:00:41:00) o He did not work in any factory, although he did work at a paper-mill in Kalamazoo, Michigan for about a month before he injured his leg and had to go to the hospital (00:01:13:00)  While he was in the hospital, Koetje decided to sign up for the Navy (00:01:47:00) o Germany had started the conflict but Koetje was not bitter about that; he was bitter when the military got involved with the Japanese (00:01:57:00)  Koetje stayed in school until the eighth grade; he started high school but never finished it (00:02:23:00) o He was supposed to have received a good education but he does not know how much good it did for him (00:02:57:00)  There were two children in his family, Koetje and his brother, which was big enough for his parents (00:03:07:00) o His parents did not marry until after they were thirty years old, so they did not as many kids as the neighbors did (00:03:17:00) o Koetje’s brother worked at a pipe plant and also knew that he would never farm (00:03:34:00)  Koetje started working when he was fourteen years old (00:03:57:00) o He had an uncle who worked at the paper mill in Kalamazoo, who Koetje got along well, so Koetje and went and asked the uncle for a job (00:04:07:00) o Before working at the paper mill, he worked at a small machine shop in Holland, Michigan (00:04:40:00) o He had an aunt who lived near Holland and Koetje lived there and a cousin who was the same age and he lived with him (00:05:04:00)  He learned to drive “before he was supposed to”; he was ten or twelve years old and he put his family’s car into the garage, but he did not stop (00:05:40:00) o He ended up knocking over a fountain and some other items (00:06:13:00) o His mother and father both drove and at the time, they owned a Model T (00:06:26:00)  When Pearl Harbor happened, Koetje and a friend were in McBain and they did not find out about the attack until night because news traveled slow (00:07:00:00) o Koetje ended up getting in a fight because he was teed off and fired up; he found out after he left the fight that his nose was skinned, so Koetje went back, trying to find the man that he had fought (00:07:20:00)  It was roughly a year and a half after Pearl Harbor that Koetje tried to enlist (00:08:13:00) �    o When he originally tired to enlist, the military would not take him and they never told him why (00:08:29:00) o They told him to just wait for the draft, which he did (00:08:46:00) He was finally drafted in 1943 (00:09:01:00) o After being drafted, Koetje went to Kalamazoo so that the military could put him in the proper branch (00:09:24:00) o He had preference for where he wanted to go and when they asked him if he wanted to join the Navy, Koetje said that he would love it (00:09:37:00)  He liked the Navy because his mother was a sailor, so he was part of a sailing family; he knew knots and stuff like that (00:09:55:00) o One of the first things that they wrote on his information was “not PO material” (not Petty Officer material), although Koetje did not know what that meant at the time (00:10:11:00) From Kalamazoo, he went to Chicago and the Great Lakes Naval Training area (00:10:37:00) o There were two men at the training area that Koetje previously knew, although he did not care much for them (00:10:49:00) o While he was in Chicago, Koetje had fleas infest his crotch and he was laid-up for a period; the Navy forced him to shave and clean up (00:11:38:00) o Because he was laid up, Koetje never saw the two men he knew again; he ended up joining a different group for training (00:12:11:00) Boot camp was very little marching, mainly because he did not have to march much in the Navy (00:12:37:00) o They did not teach him how to tie knots (00:13:01:00) o The men did receive a little bit of weapons training; Koetje had to carry a gun, although it was a dummy (00:13:07:00) o The men also did physical training “to get in shape”; Koetje believes that he was in pretty good shape when he got to boot camp, but not in as good a shape as what the Navy asked for (00:13:41:00) o The instructors placed an emphasis on discipline, which was not as easy to learn because Koetje had a head of his own (00:13:59:00)  However, Koetje does not recall getting in too much trouble (00:14:22:00) After spending about four weeks in Chicago for boot camp, Koetje went to Indianapolis for radio school (00:14:38:00) o Even though he had “not PO material” all over his record, the Navy sent him to radio school anyway, where they were going to teach him how to be a radio operator (00:15:09:00) o However, that did not work, so he went to Norfolk, Virginia (00:15:16:00) U.S.S. Davison / U.S.S. McDermott (00:15:44:00)  Koetje was not in Norfolk for long because he went aboard ship; he does not remember the name of the ship, but his records say the U.S.S. Davison, a destroyer (00:15:44:00) o While aboard the Davison, Koetje ended up going to North Africa (00:16:57:00) o The ship itself was a tin-can destroyer and when he went aboard, it sailed to Bizerte in Tunisia (00:17:05:00) � o o o o o o o o o The Davison was about three hundred feet in length and brand new (00:17:51:00) While aboard Davison, Koetje was a regular seaman; he never really had a job; eventually, they decided that he was capable of doing a lot more seamanship, so he was transferred off the ship when it returned to the United States (00:18:28:00) The trip across the Atlantic consisted of trying to dodge submarines and performing escort duty; they had about twenty cargo ships with them going to North Africa and the Davison had to protect them from torpedoes (00:19:46:00)  If the Davison saw a U-boat, then they went between the cargo ships and the torpedoes, which was suspenseful (00:20:09:00) They did encounter some U-boats on the journey and they dropped some depth charges, which Koetje calls “tin cans” (00:20:36:00)  Apart from the depth charges, the Davison also had torpedoes (00:21:01:00)  On both the journey over and the journey back, the Davison used all of its depth charges (00:21:15:00) The Germans did not sink any of the cargo ships and Koetje does not know if they managed to sink any of the U-boats, although they did manage to capture one (00:21:30:00)  The Davison was not actually involved in capturing the submarine, another sailor that Koetje knew was (00:21:41:00)  The sailor was on a destroyer escort that ended up capturing the U-boat and as it turned out, no one but the big shots received credit for the capture (00:21:48:00) On the voyage, sometimes the weather and water was rough and sometimes it was smooth (00:22:32:00) Koetje had not much experience on smaller boats on Lake Michigan, but he never really got sick once he was on the Atlantic (00:22:41:00)  However, the men around him did get sick and it was mostly a chronic seasickness (00:23:04:00) He did get off the Davison in Bizerte and walked around a good sized lake near the city (00:23:35:00)  He found out later that a friend of his, a neighbor, was near the city working on a military base (00:23:55:00)  Also, this was the first time that Koetje saw the P-61 twin-engine fighter plane (00:24:32:00)  The Davison was tied up to some British ships and some of the men got in trouble because they danced with some girls; the girls were French colonists and the Americans fought the British over them (00:25:06:00) The Davison stayed in Bizerte for three or four days then left with a convoy headed back to the United States (00:26:03:00)  When they went back through the Straits of Gibraltar, there were bottlenose dolphins swimming with the ships; this was the first time that Koetje saw fish at the surface (00:26:15:00) Going back, the convoy was attacked by quite a few German U-boats (00:26:42:00) �   The Davison did not do much shooting with the 5 inch gun; they did have the 20 mm guns that they could train down into the water (00:26:48:00) Koetje’s next ship was the U.S.S. McDermott, another destroyer, where he was made into a coxswain, which was the next higher rank (00:27:29:00) o He was a seaman first class on the Davison and a coxswain on the McDermott and then he lost the “not PO material” label (00:27:40:00)  He does not know if it was his ability to tie knots or what but he lost the label (00:28:02:00) o The McDermott eventually went through the Panama Canal to fight the Japanese (00:28:23:00) o After the Panama Canal, the McDermott went to Maui and joined up with a convoy; Koetje went to bed one night and the next morning, there were “three hundred man-o-wars” around the ship (00:28:48:00) o The men did not know where they were going because they Navy did not tell them; they knew that they were going after the Japanese fleet (00:29:17:00)  They were about eight hundred miles from Japan, but they never caught up with the Japanese fleet; the Japanese knew that the Americans were coming and they scooted out as fast as possible (00:29:31:00) o After missing the Japanese, they went back towards Hawaii and went to different places around there (00:29:51:00) o Koetje did not spend long on the McDermoyt; probably three or four months at most (00:30:14:00) o The McDermott spent most of its time in the Central Pacific and around Hawaii (00:30:46:00) After spending time on the McDermott, Koetje went back to San Francisco and saw a friend on his way back (00:31:23:00) S.S. Henry Byrd / U.S.S. Leo (00:33:06:00)  Eventually, he was transferred to the S.S. Henry Byrd, which ended up running aground and sinking (00:33:06:00) o The skipper of the Henry Byrd was a merchant marine officer and he believed that he would receive more money by going in to San Francisco a day later, so the ship waited and ended up running aground (00:33:59:00) o The men were told to abandon ship and there were thirteen hundred sailors aboard the ship (00:34:18:00) o At that time, there were women driving the buses and most of the men did not have a lot of clothes on at the time; Koetje came out with just his white hat and a pair of skivvies (00:34:40:00) o The ship had life rafts but there was so many men on them that water came up over the sides (00:35:09:00) o The Henry Byrd ran aground near they Farallon Islands, but the men were unable to get on the islands; they eventually had to get the life rafts loose and were in the water for an hour and ten minutes (00:35:30:00) o The Coast Guard eventually came out and rescued the men; on shore, they used buses to carry the men to a place to stay (00:36:36:00) �   o Koetje was aboard the Henry Byrd because it was taking him back for his next assignment (00:37:38:00) When he got back, Koetje got a twenty-day survivor leave and he spent time in San Francisco, where he saw some friends, and he saw his wife (00:37:52:00) o Eventually, the Navy put him on a train and before he left, he called his wife and told him to meet him in Chicago; however, the train skirted the city and took Koetje to Newport, Rhode Island (00:38:26:00) o In about three days, he was across the United States (00:39:08:00) At Newport, the Navy put him through a little training then put a crew together to go out to sea (00:39:13:00) o Koetje was supposed to receive some time stateside but he had to pay money the government if he stayed stateside (00:39:32:00) Next, Koetje was assigned to the U.S.S. Leo (00:40:12:00) o The Navy sent him from Newport back to Norfolk and he joined the Leo there (00:40:17:00) o The Leo was a cargo ship, an ATA (00:40:30:00) o The first load that Koetje helped load in Norfolk was beer; the entire back end of the ship was beer but he was warned not to touch any of it (00:40:42:00)  There were two seaman aboard ship from Arkansas who would steal anything; Koetje told them not to touch it and that when they got to Maui, then the two could have some of it (00:41:03:00)  The skipper asked if the two men were going to shore; when Koetje said yes, the skipper asked if they could save him a case (00:41:29:00)  Koetje said “yes” and he ended up with some and the skipper ended up with two; the beer was in military bottles, not tin cans (00:41:40:00)  They could steal the beer from the Marines, but not from their own ship (00:42:12:00) o With the Leo, Koetje went all over the Pacific; there would be about three or four days of sailing then they would stop at another island (00:42:38:00) o Koetje went to Iwo Jima, but that was not on the very first trip (00:43:26:00)  The first invasion that he took part in was Iwo Jima (00:43:43:00)  At the time, the Leo was unloading cargo, mostly fuel for the aircraft; Koetje was not sure how many barrels but they had enough that slings could pick up four barrels at a time (00:43:53:00)  This was about the only time that black people were aboard the ship; they were driving the vehicles that ferried the fuel onto the islands (00:44:37:00)  There were not many planes on the island at the time, because they were bombing the island (00:45:22:00) o Iwo Jima was the first time that the Leo was hit (00:45:34:00)  Ships were overshooting the island with their 40 mm guns and one of the men ended up dying (00:45:48:00)  An officer standing next to Koetje asked what the rounds were, because they could see the rounds coming and Koetje said that someone was shooting at them (00:46:03:00) � o o o o o o o o Koetje said that of course the officer was not scared and when another volley came over the island, he did not see the officer again (00:46:19:00) The closest that Koetje came to the Japanese was when a battlewagon (battleship) was sitting near the islands trying to get the Japanese out of their holes on the island (00:47:07:00)  Whenever the battleship fired, it moved back in the water; after two or three volleys, the ship had to reposition (00:47:50:00) After Iwo Jima, the Leo went to Okinawa (00:48:40:00)  At Okinawa, the ship carried more aircraft gasoline as well as Marines (00:48:51:00)  They unload the Marines into landing craft that the Leo carried; the land craft were mostly LCM and LCVP (00:49:13:00)  The Marines got into the landing craft by climbing down ropes on the side of the Leo (00:49:36:00) While he was at Okinawa, Koetje saw Japanese kamikazes; the Japanese were flying quite a bit of suicide planes (00:49:54:00) During Okinawa, Koetje was a gun captain and held the rank of boatswain (00:50:13:00)  He does not know how he advanced so far in rank; it was unusual for a deckhand with no education to go as far as he did (00:50:28:00)  Koetje was a gun captain for a five inch gun; he also had a 20 mm gun available and a 40 mm gun above him (00:50:52:00)  One time, a Japanese plane came in towards the ship and Koetje believes that he got a direct hit on the plane (00:51:18:00)  Usually, the planes would fly into the shrapnel but this plane came in on a glide and everyone assumed that the pilot was dead (00:52:07:00)  The men received recognition for getting a direct hit on the incoming plane (00:52:35:00) The Leo was never actually hit by kamikazes; they came close but crashed in the water (00:53:06:00)  Koetje got a dent in his helmet but that was about it (00:53:13:00)  He saw kamikazes hit other ships but he does not remember details about that (00:53:26:00) After Okinawa, the Leo ended up towing another ship, the Hinsdale, an APA (a troopship) (00:53:43:00)  The Leo ended up towing the ship over six hundred miles to another island base for repairs (00:54:08:00) Koetje only went to Okinawa once (00:54:32:00) After Okinawa, the Leo went to quite a few other places carrying cargo, including the Philippines (00:54:55:00)  The skipper said that he would like to take a ride on an ankle board, so Koetje had some men from Alabama get an airplane crash boat (00:55:40:00) �     The men ended up stealing the boat from the Air Force and they stowed the boat on the Leo and Koetje would give the skipper periodic rides on the board, which was a flat board with a rope (00:56:08:00)  One day, the skipper did not ask Koetje to take a ride, but another man did and he ended up crashing on some rocks (00:56:51:00) o While the Leo was in the Philippines, Koetje went on shore and he went to most of the places that he was not supposed to, such as going to get liquor (00:50:13:00)  One place had the roof blown completely off but the men still spent a couple of hours there (00:58:08:00) The Leo was loaded for Japan and eighty miles away, preparing to invade the islands, when they received word that the Japanese had surrendered (00:58:33:00) o That was when the men heard about the atomic bomb; the men only heard that something terrible had happened and it was only after the second bomb dropped that the Japanese surrendered (00:59:04:00) The Leo still ended up going to Japan after the surrender (00:59:24:00) o Koetje went on shore while the Leo was in Japan; he and some other men ended up going to some museums and Koetje ended up buying a beautiful wooden boat but when he returned to the Leo, he could not keep it (00:59:50:00) o He did not end up paying much attention to the damage from the Air Corps’ bombing campaign (01:01:03:00) o Koetje did not think too much of the Japanese civilians; they, in turn, gave the Americans anything (01:01:32:00)  However, the civilians were still pretty beat up (01:01:52:00) o The Leo made only one trip to Japan (01:02:20:00) After Japan, the Leo went a lot of the islands in the area; Koetje’s last trip was to Indochina and then to Tsingtao (01:02:39:00) o They were carrying Chinese soldiers back to China (01:03:37:00) o The Chinese soldiers were all men, but some were boys, and about every third on had a gun; they were well behaved on the ship (01:04:06:00) o The Americans told the soldiers to let them know if any of the soldiers were sick and when they got to Tsingtao, they were missing about thirteen or fourteen of the soldiers (01:04:39:00)  If a soldier showed any sickness, then he was thrown overboard (01:05:07:00) o Tsingtao was the first time that the Americans saw Russian-made ships, which were beautifully made; however, the Americans did not have any contact with Russian sailors (01:05:37:00) Following the voyage to Tsingtao, Koetje went back to the United States (01:06:05:00) o He went to Bellingham, Washington but he did not have enough points to get out of the military, so he spent from November until February at the base (01:06:18:00) o Koetje was discharged from the military on February 1st and he went back home to Michigan (01:07:00:00) �Post-Military Life (01:07:16:00)  When he got back to Michigan, the first thing that Koetje did was went to see his girlfriend (01:07:16:00) o Eventually, he took a job working with another man, who Koetje had known before the war, as carpenters (01:07:42:00) o Koetje spent a couple of years in Grand Rapids and married before he moved north and into the country (01:08:15:00)  Joining the Navy was probably worth doing (01:09:01:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KoetjeW Title A name given to the resource Koetje, Wilbert (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koetje, Wilbert Description An account of the resource Wilbert Koetje was born in Marion, Michigan in 1922. After failing in his first attempt to enlist, he was drafted in 1943 and served in the Navy. Even after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, Koetje waited a year before enlisting. After the military denied his enlistment, Koetje waited for the draft; once drafted, he served in the Navy. He initially served on a destroyer, the USS Davison, on convoy duty in the Atlantic and Mediterranean. He then switched to another destroyer, the USS McDermott, which patrolled out of Hawaii. After several months, he was sent back to California on a transport ship, the SS Henry Byrd, which had to be abandoned off San Francisco. After that, he was assigned as a gun captain aboard a transport ship, the SS Leo, and participated in the campaigns at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, took a load of troops to Japan for the occupation, and helped repatriate Chinese soldiers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-09 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fa9b783702462e296e1d251bf0e619a7.pdf c486935f9f86a2f465abc2777cce6fb5 PDF Text Text Lynzee Kollar - Since I am living in an off-campus apartment for my sophomore year, I ended up staying there for a few more weeks after school turned to remote classes. I personally was resistant to return home just because I love the independence I have at GV, but now that I’m actually home, I am glad to be back with my family during this time. My one friend who lived on campus had to leave as soon as possible which was incredibly sad, but I spent the night with him to enjoy his last day. The next day we cleared out his whole apartment and sadly said our goodbyes. I have my apartment for the whole summer, so I only brought home my essentials such as clothes, hygiene products, etc. - Surprisingly, online classes have been going really well for me. A few weekends before this all happened and we were still going to classes, I had my first panic attack. Following that day, every time I would go to my classes I would have to leave the classroom in order to get a breath of fresh air and to calm down. Every time I went to a class, I would get this instant feeling that I was going to have another panic attack. Once classes turned to online, my anxiety has calmed down and I have been able to focus on myself. Being able to work in the comfort of my own room has been so much less stressful and I have not had a panic attack since. I think this is because I don't have to be in public anymore and worried about having anxiety with lots of people around me. I have been able to keep up my grades and everything is going well. - My student organization, NSSLHA, requires a certain amount of volunteer and event hours in order to stay in the group, and as the end of the year was approaching, I was overwhelmed because I had about 3 more events to go. Since COVID -19 occurred, NSSLHA had to smartly state that we no longer needed these hours and that as long as we paid our dues, we would still be in the group. Although I wish I could have gotten the extra volunteering experience, I was grateful to not have as much stress to get these hours in especially since exams were right around the corner. - Although normally my household is annoying and I just want to go back to school ASAP, life at home has been very relaxing and comforting. This is a time where we need to support each other through all of this and we have been getting through by experimenting with new cooking recipes, watching movies, and just talking about life. My mom is so happy that I am back home, and I am glad to be able to bring her this joy. My brother who I do not always get along with very well, has also made an effort to bond with me and I am very excited about strengthening our relationship during this time. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journals Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled. The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context COVID-19_2020-04-24_KollarLynzee Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kollar, Lynzee Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-04-24 Title A name given to the resource COVID- 19 Experience Description An account of the resource Journal of GVSU student Lynzee Kollar's feelings and experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic. Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5babbe2a3f22da4b1f105c7b7c2cfc2f.mp4 69db2c20acf6e76f06521bd567a8bc9b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f814d527f47259f9230520cb52a3a489.pdf 3daf04fb5734351148a390a3a72f83b8 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Tom Konecsni Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: May 18, 2023 DD (00:02): All right. Uh, I'm Dani DeVasto and today, May 18th, 2023. I have the pleasure of chatting with Tom, an individual who has been impacted by PFAS. Can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? TK (00:26): Yes. I, I currently live in, in the west Wolven area of Rockford, and I've been here, um, going on 16 years. DD (00:37): Great. TK (00:38): Prior to that, um, different states, uh, 23 years in Southern California. Um, couple years in Dallas, Fort Worth in Austin, Philadelphia, four years, and then, uh, Cleveland, Ohio, eight years. DD (00:58): Oh, you've really been in a lot of different places. TK (01:02): <laugh>. Yes. It was driven from, you know, childhood moves to, uh, young adult adulthood in southern California. DD (01:14): Awesome. Thank you. Can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? TK (01:24): Yeah, and I'll, I'll start with, um, how, how I even came upon, you know, PFAS and that was, uh, in the, oh, I think the summertime of, uh, or the spring summertime of, um, 2010. I was driving my kids to school one day and I noticed a cloud of dust and particulate coming from the, uh, the tannery. And I looked over and they have a, a security fence around the property. And, uh, I noticed, uh, Pitch and Rockford were demoing the buildings. Pitch, being the demo, and Rockford doing the, the, the, the construction work. So there was a general, and I believe a sub on that job site. And while I was looking, um, I, I noticed that the buildings that were being knocked down were very old, and the dust being emitted and the cloud that was being generated from all the demolition activities was being blown into the neighborhoods and, uh, the local school. TK (02:40): 1 �So I, um, um, was concerned about that because I, I, at the time with my background, I believed that the buildings contained, you know, asbestos and lead and other chemicals, and I didn't like the fact that it was going beyond the, the property line. So I went to a public hearing at, at the high school, uh, a couple weeks later just to try to understand what was going on. And, uh, uh, a lot of the parties were present from, uh, Wolverine executives to the law, you know, the, the law law firm that was, um, um, that was hired basically to help them out through any legal matters. And then, uh, which was Rose & Westra, and then I believe GZA was there, and then city council, Mayor Michael Young and, and some other staff. And the presentation was basically trying to, um, soothe or, um, calm, calm people's concerns and fears of what was happening at the site, um, stating, um, situations or their facts of the contaminants that are, are there, aren't harmful. TK (04:08): And, you know, you'd have to drink a, an Olympic sized pool, you know, every day for 10 years to be affected by it. And with my environmental safety health background, when it became, um, question and answer period, I raised my hand and I, you know, I said, well, you know, that's not totally accurate because, you know, 23 of my career years, uh, or my career was in Southern Cal, and they have the toughest environmental regs in the country. And I said, you know, especially with lead, if you're six years or younger or 65 and older, you want zero in your blood. So, you know, there is no such thing as drinking an Olympic size pool and not be affected by, you know, lead and, uh, with the Flint problem, and, you know, this and that going on. Uh, that was just one of my concerns. TK (05:00): So when I stated that, um, the, uh, concerned Citizens Group at the time that was formed approached me and wondered if I could help them out, you know, with, with, um, their research into what's going on with, with that activity at the tannery and, um, the companies I worked for and me being in, in the, uh, Rockford school system and the stories that I was told with, um, certain intimidations going on with, uh, individuals in the, um, concerned Citizens Group and, and, and other people, uh, I wanted to be anonymous. And, uh, I chose to be that way for quite some time, um, until now. And, uh, uh, after some research and FOI-ng information, we were getting, um, a lot of, oh, excuses that it's a hardship to find this paperwork. Uh, you know, we don't have safety data sheets 'cause the building's been knocked down and, you know, it's required by regulation. TK (06:13): You have to have 'em for 30 years and or, you know, um, or even if you, you transfer ownership, that new ownership should need to, has to have them. Same with has waste manifest. And because we were getting, um, just a lot of, uh, no's from them or basically, um, obstacles in our way to get this information, uh, you know, more and more research was being done until we did get information that we needed so that we could present our findings to E uh, DEQ at the time, which is now Eagle, um, and presented to a Cadillac, which is the enforcement branch of it. Um, a few years went by where they were interested, but nothing was being done. And then we ended up, uh, going to Chicago and, uh, getting the interest of EPA Region five involved in 2017/18, where, um, the hand was forced, you know, to clean up the tannery and the House Street, um, sites where samples were taken and obviously high levels were found at House Street, a, a as well as the Rogue River in, in Rum Creek. And since then, I've been part of the monthly, um, community awareness group, Wolverine CAG, and, um, continue to, you know, just make sure things are being done right, you know, for the community and, and, uh, you know, all affected parties that come to Rockford, whether it's for entertainment or business or they're just living here. 2 �DD (08:00): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, just for folks who might not be familiar, can you explain what a haz waste manifest is? TK (08:11): Yeah. Um, with anytime you have a, they call it a RCRA waste, which is a Resource Conservation Recovery Act, um, that was put together many, many decades ago, um, in the eighties, if you're on this list or if you have any of the characteristics of a hazardous waste, like if it's ignitable toxic, corrosive reactive, uh, there's definitions for that, then, um, it's, it's considered a RCRA waste and then it has to go to an approved treatment storage disposal facility where they either treat it, store it, or dispose of it. It could be just a landfill. And, um, you know, a lot of the toxic chemicals, reactive chemicals, ignitable, you know, those are, um, uh, you know, high risk, uh, that could cause immediately dangers to life and health situations if it's not, uh, monitored and, uh, handled properly. DD (09:16): Thank you. So you, you mentioned that when you, um, were first noticing the building being demolished, you were concerned about other hazardous, potentially hazardous substances like asbestos. Um, did, were you aware of PFAS at that time or when, like when did, when did PFAS kind of enter your, your world? TK (09:38): When, um, safety data sheets were, um, um, were looked at and reviewed, that's when the compound came up with Scotch Guard. So at the time, you know, and that was several years, um, after, um, getting Wolverine to try to do the right thing to clean up the site. So that was, uh, when I first got involved was the immediate aspects of, um, asbestos, you know, uh, particulate or, or dust, and then, um, you know, lead, lead as well. So that's what initiated, uh, my interest in, you know, trying to figure out, Hey, what, what, what's happening? There's contamination in the river, in the land, in the air, just from those two substances alone, hazardous substances. Mm-Hmm, DD (10:37): <affirmative> TK (10:39): Or materials or waste, but that they're called different, um, you know, different names based on the regulation that follows 'em. So you have OSHA that regulates asbestos, EPA, DOT, same with lead. DD (11:02): All right. It sounds like it was, um, a good thing that they, that they were able to get you in on the Concerned Citizens Group. <laugh> sounds like your your knowledge of, of environmental safety regulations and policies would be particularly useful. TK (11:22): Yes. Yes. And, uh, you know, it, it helped, you know, steer the path of, you know, where things are at currently to try to remediate, you know, the both sites, the tannery site as well as House Street. 3 �DD (11:38): And when you started seeing PFAS showing up on those, um, safety sheets, were you familiar with that concept or with that, with the class of chemicals? TK (11:49): I, I, I, I knew about it, but I had to do research on it. Um, I've heard it, but I didn't really know the toxicity of it, you know, until, until I did some research on it. I, I knew it was, you know, a water repellent that's, that they have for, you know, Teflon pans. It's a, it's a, it's a great, you know, chemical, so is asbestos, you know, a mineral. It's got a high tensile strength. It's was used in a lot of things, and it's still used in some brake pads today. So, um, you know, things could be chemicals, hazardous substance materials can be handled, but they need to be handled safely, you know, write PPE disposed of properly. You know, you could, you could do things, but you need to have procedures in place, you know, and, and follow them and enforce them. That's why they're there, you know? Mm-Hmm. DD (12:47): <affirmative>, yeah. What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward, if any? TK (12:56): Um, just that, uh, it's the forever chemical and, uh, you know, the concentrations that are, you know, currently in the Rogue, um, that, that goes to the Grand River, the Grand River goes to Lake Michigan and so on, so forth. Um, will it ever get to be a, a level that's safe, you know, for not only drinking, but you know, the general public, just recreational activities, boating, kayaking. So, um, I, you know, that's, that's a concern. You know what, since the science is somewhat new, and since health studies are new, considering studies on other chemicals that have been around for decades, um, it's evolving. And, you know, we don't know the exact, um, effects 10, 20, 30 years from now from, you know, PFAS in your blood, you know, at high levels. So, um, you know, will it lead to more cancers or, you know, other illnesses, you know, uh, for, for being in your body, you know, for a duration of time. DD (14:14): Yeah. So some of those really long, the unknown of the long term. TK (14:19): Yep. Yeah. The acute effects would be short term, you know, are are there acute effects, you know, possibly, you know, possibly if you consider getting cancer, you know, in a short period of time. Uh, but it's the long term that I, I think isn't, um, the science isn't out for that yet. But, you know, I'm not a toxicologist, so I can't, you know, verify that. DD (14:49): Fair enough. Uh, is there anything that you would want to add that we haven't touched on today, or anything that you want to go back to in what you've already said that you'd like to say more about? TK (15:05): Um, lemme think. No, other than, you know, it's been a long, long journey, you know, to see where things first started, to where everything has ended. I mean, there's, uh, you know, details on how information was, uh, received and gathered and, and put together and, and, uh, you know, that those 4 �aspects, um, I may come back to in a, in a future time. But, um, for the purpose of this, this recording, um, I'm just given a high, high level, high look down, um, summary of my, uh, um, my experience through, you know, living here and being part of the community and being part of the CAG, um, to actually having these sites mediated. So, uh, it's, it's, you know, it didn't happen overnight and it's continuously evolving. Again, it's not a destiny, but it's gonna be this, you know, this long journey to see how this, this ends up, if we ever do, you know, DD (16:32): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, TK (16:34): Maybe not in my lifetime, but, um, my, my gen, you know, not my kids generation and so on and so forth. DD (16:45): Yeah. PFAS is the, the situation both in Rockford area as well as kind of, I think globally. Yeah. Around PFAS. It's all still emerging and unfolding. And, and that's part of the, I think the challenge, TK (17:03): The tough part is, you know, it's, they're even finding it in rainwater. So when it rains, you know, there's <laugh>, you have PFAS and pretty much everybody has it in their, in their body throughout the world, and, you know, at different levels, depending on their exposure, their dose, the duration, that's what really determines, you know, what your health effects will be, DD (17:30): Right. Yeah. It's, uh, like you said, it's still an evolving, unfolding situation and TK (17:39): You be cautious, right? It's everywhere, right? DD (17:42): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, TK (17:45): Exactly. And, uh, you know, I just, uh, just want people to do, do the right thing. I've always been, um, on the defense side of, of corporations, you know, from a OSHA, EPA, uh, standpoint, um, DOT standpoint, and, you know, having this opportunity in front of me to, Hey, let's just, you know, have corporate America do the right thing. Um, kids live here, go to school here. It's a good, good community. You know, I enjoy, you know, the, the environment and, you know, I'd like to stay here. So if I'm gonna do that, um, you know, do what we can to clean, clean up, uh, you know, the contaminated areas. DD (18:35): Yeah. It sounds like you are doing that -- what you can, TK (18:39): 5 �Right? DD (18:41): It does sound like TK (18:42): With the power invest invested in me, right? You grant me that, right Dani? DD (18:48): <Laugh> If I could, I would. <laugh>. Oh, well thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, even at a high level. I understand that, like I said, the situation is evolving and, um, I really appreciate that you're willing to talk and share the parts of your story today that you did. TK (19:14): Yeah, no problem. Dani, remember when you put this into a book or a movie, I want to be the one of the actors. Don't ask for Tom Cruise. I wanna be able to be the main character and pick, you know, my, uh, my partner like Michelle Pfeiffer, Julie Roberts has had too many roles like that <laugh> with Erin Brockovich. So as long as that happens, Dani, you'll get all the details from me. All right, DD (19:40): <laugh> Sounds good, Tom. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0038 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Konecsni, Tom Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-05-18 Title A name given to the resource Tom Konecsni, 2023 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Tom Konecsni is a resident of Rockford, Michigan. After observing a building demolition in 2010, Tom became concerned about the environmental impacts of industry and chemicals in the area. He joined the Concerned Citizens Group. In the interview, he shares his observations about PFAS from various corporations that impact the area around Rockford, Grand Rapids, and the Grand River. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87d150df23d71e970e32f6030510fc96.m4v 802089bdaa466bc342b6de51a77b992d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a99fe20f27f3ae797fc06c1ea9a723c5.pdf e6a8ae81ecf1ed27f463e1803d7458bc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Dolly Nemic Konwinski Length of Interview: (01:23:44) Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you grow up? What was your neighborhood like and your family?” It was a typical, typical working class neighborhood. The neighborhood consisted of Bohemians and Polish and Jewish and it was the most wonderful—growing up in this neighborhood was exceptionally fun as I can remember and to go to school with this group and to grow up with, I should say, the boys because that was my main team mates. We went to grammar school together, to kindergarten and elementary and high school. Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?” Well, in the depression he was with the WPA, I forget what that stands for. Interviewer: “It was Roosevelt’s way of getting people to work.” Right, my mother was a stay at home mother of course—back then all moms stayed home and cooked, washed, etc. My dad played softball with a neighborhood group and in Chicago, I guess you get the picture—in the neighborhood where there’s a tavern on every other corner. Well, my dad would stop and have a little refreshment on his way home and that’s the group he played horseshoes with and played softball with and not having a boy, I was the tag along. (02:20) I wouldn’t let my dad out of the house, even if he was going to the corner store for some “Halva”, which is a Jewish candy by the way. I would sit by the door so, he had to take me to the softball games, which I was a “gofer” and some of the men, if they were true ball players, they chased their own shag balls, but since I was there, I was the “gofer”, to go for the ball. They would say, “Dolly get this” and of course they couldn’t have picked a better person than me because I wanted this badly. I wanted to be on the ball field since I can remember. Interviewer: “Why? What was your motivation? I know your back to your early childhood, but what was it about baseball that appealed to you as a young kid?” (03:15) You know, that’s really a hard question, but my love for my father, I wanted to be just like him and I would do things just like my dad and I just took to the sport. I didn’t like dolls—I have a sister and she had the most beautiful dolls in the neighborhood and I don’t know where they got the money to buy these, maybe they went down to the relief station and picked them up, but she had these beautiful dolls and I had the best bat and ball in the neighborhood. (03:56) Of course doing that, the boys all loved me too, but I was good—I was good when I was a kid. Interviewer: “How old were you when you actually started playing baseball?” 1 �I was probably seven or eight. Interviewer: “Whom did you play with?” I played with the boys in the neighborhood. Interviewer: “Where?” Well, if you can close your eyes and picture a neighborhood in Chicago and you will find that the streets were narrow and they held a car, if you were lucky enough to have one parked there. We use to play softball there and we used the manhole cover and the drains as first and the manhole cover as second and so on, and then we took chalk and drew home plate in the street. (04:53) When we started, we wanted to play baseball and Kuppenheimer Clothes had a factory just a half a block away and in back of the factory was a field, a large field and that’s where me and the boys went to play ball. Interviewer: “Were you the only girl?” I was the only girl. Interviewer: “Did other kids come out to watch you play?” (05:22) No, they played. I remember that movie “Sand lot” and I loved that movie because it’s what I did when I was a kid. We went out there and we played “round robin”, you hit, you fielded, you pitched, you were a Cub fan or a Sox fan and you took their names, you took Stan Hack, you took Andy Pafko, but I was a Sox fan and I was in love with Luke Appling so, I played short stop and I always told—you call me Luke—I wanta be Luke Appling, I want to play professional baseball just like Luke Appling and not realizing what was going to happen in the distant future. (06:13) Interviewer: “That was fantasy because you couldn’t play even if you—we know what actually happened later, but as a child at that time playing--fantasizing about playing professional baseball, there were no women in baseball at that time”. You know the old saying “Girls can’t play baseball”, well I did and I was a good player. I wasn’t the best, I wasn’t a home run hitter, but I always was picked first if I wasn’t the captain. Maybe it was because of that bat and ball I had and the boys liked it. I remember the bat. We played with cracked, cracked at the handle and couldn’t afford to go out and get a new bat—didn’t have aluminum bats way back then so, my dad took his manual screw driver and he put a hole through there and put in a screw and then he taped it up. (07:19) He didn’t use the shiny black tape we have today, he used the tape that would get your hands black, but he taped that bat up and it was as good as new and back to the ball fields. (07:34) 2 �Of course, we only played now in the summer—wintertime, there was time for skating and tobogganing and sledding. I think every kid in Chicago had a sled—so our summers were—and then I had a paper route. I had a Sun Times paper route. The first girl to have a paper route—a large one too. My sister would help me—please El, please El, I got a ball game, can you help me deliver these papers? I have to do homework and then I would have to run out—“They need me, they need me, my sister would say “Ok, ok”, she is two years younger so—you know when you’re eight and nine and eight and seven. I would say “Please El?”(08:25) It was the same with doing dishes when we were young. That was out job—we had to do the dishes, “Oh mama do I have to do the dishes?” “You have to do the dishes”. Well, I finally caught on and I would say to my sister, “Will you wipe tonight?” One night we would wash and one night we would do the wiping, but the dishwasher always got finished first so, I would say, “El, El, let me wash dishes tonight”, and she would say, “Well, you washed last night”, and I would say, “I want to get out of here, please, please, I got a ball game”, because the boys would be sitting on the fence waiting for me. 9:01 “Oh Dolly, oh Dolly, when you were a kid back then that’s what they would yell. Then when it would come to the pots and pans, I would say, “Oh mama, oh mama, can you do this pot? It’s really hard and the boys are waiting”. I had a wonderful childhood. I had a wonderful—when my dad got home from work—we played with a sixteen inch softball in Chicago and if you hit it enough times it gets like mooch. We were—you know, a small hand could squeeze it and the ball, when it was hit it would just kind of tumble around. (09:46) “Daddy, daddy, I need a new ball”. We had enough money for food, we were never without food on our table and there he would come home under his arm, with his lunch basket, would be a ball. Now, I don’t know where he got that ball—we’ll just leave it at that. (10:12) Interviewer: “You got through high school and graduated from high school?” Yes. Interviewer: “Ok, when did you first hear about the opportunity to play baseball?” One morning after church, my dad stopped at the bakery and we always had bagels and Kaiser rolls, he stopped at the Jewish market and they were the best in the whole world. I wish I could go back there today and pick up a dozen. He came home and after coffee he was reading the paper and he said to me, “Dolly”, he said, “did you know that girls play baseball?” I said, “Girls don’t play baseball”, he said, “There’s an All American girls baseball league that’s having tryouts and it’s going to be right in the neighborhood at one our park districts”. (11:18) That’s where I played a lot of my sports, at the park—volleyball and whatever girls played over there, whatever they would let us play. He said, “It’s going to be right down the street and I want you to go”, and I said, “Oh dad, I’m not”—he said, “You’re a good ball player Dolly, I want you to go.” Well, the glove I had was—if you go down to the hall of fame one day, you’ll see the kind of gloves we had. It was probably from the five 3 �and ten cent store, but I had this glove and he said, “I want you to go down there”. “Ok, I’ll go down”. (12:03) I never saw so many girls with baseball gloves in my life. Interviewer: “Now this is a field you had already played in so, you knew where it was?” Right down the street. Interviewer: “Right down the street”. In the park district. Interviewer: “What I’m really impressed with is your father really encouraged you to do this”. (12:22) He did, and of course my mother, you know, my mother didn’t really know first from short, but let me tell you one story. One day I said to my mother, “Mom, does it take longer to get from first to second or second to third?” and she said to me, “Now Dolly, that was just the most stupid thing you could ask me”, I was laid back and I said, “Well, what do you mean?” and she said, “Well, it takes longer to get from second to third”, and I laughed, “What do you mean mom?” She said, “Well, there’s a short stop in-between”. 13:10 I love to tell this story and I love to tell it in front of her because I don’t know where she got that information, maybe my father whispered it in her ear, but mama didn’t know too much about sports. Interviewer: “What did she think about this idea of you going to try out for this baseball thing?” Like I say, she didn’t—she knew I went out to play ball so, it was just another going out in the afternoon and having fun with the boys, but my father had told me “it’s girls baseball”. When I got there--Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the trip over, what were you thinking about while you were walking over?” (13:56) Walking is right, I was fifteen—walking over there and thinking to myself, “You know, will I be able to catch the ball? Are they going to throw really hard to me? Are there going to be ladies there throwing? What is this all about?” (14:21) It was about—I would say about three blocks from the house, maybe four and you know you skip down there and you think and you smile—baseball, baseball, organized. Well, when I got there to that gym, I had to sign in and there were a lot of men and there were a lot of women, young girls, in fact, we weren’t women yet, we were fifteen and sixteen years old. (14:52) I walked in there and my eyes must have been almost popping out of my head. I could not believe what I was seeing. Well, you know, grab a friend and here’s a ball and start 4 �throwing and the ball was—I believe the ball was eleven inches. It had come down from the twelve inch that the league started with and so, we started playing catch and my name is Dolly—well’ my name is Mary Lou and my name is Ginger and where do you live? (15:29) Well, I live way on the south side and what school do you go to? I go to Tillman, and I went to Farragut, the conversation was just fun and women throwing hard to me, I did not have to look for a boy to throw the ball to me like I’m use to catching. It went on, we played catch and of course it was in a gym and so the men, who were coaches, started hitting ground balls to us, we were in line and we each took our turn fielding the ball and throwing the ball and we couldn’t hit, but we could slide—slide on a gym floor? Ouch. (16:18) It wasn’t strawberries, it was floor burns. Interviewer: “What were you wearing?” I was probably wearing a pair of pants and to this day, and I just bought them last year, I never owned a pair of jeans. It was always a pair of girl’s slacks, some kind of a shirt, I don’t remember. Interviewer: “I was just trying to think. It wasn’t a uniform or anything?” No, I was what everybody had. They had their jeans on and tennis shoes. I don’t know if I had tennis shoes or if we could afford tennis shoes. Interviewer: “What year was this?” (17:01) This was in 1947. Interviewer: “Ok, so the war was already over with?” Right, what they were trying to do is get four teams in Chicago, like a farm system, which the All Americans never had. They were trying to form the farm system with the local gals and then we lined up and they told us a little bit about the league and what they were trying to do—get four teams—there would be two south side teams, two north end teams, and we would play each other. (17:41) I must have impressed the coaches because they called my name and they came up to me and they said, “Does your parents know about this?” I said, “Yes, my dad sent me down here”, and they said, “Dolly, you’re a good ball player”, no Joe DiMaggio, no Luke Appling, and I said, “Thank you”, and he said, “Would you be interested in playing on one of the Chicago teams?” I said, “Oh, yes”. Well, they had some literature, some notes that I had to take home and show my mom and dad. (18:31) Interviewer: “Did you have a job at this time?” 5 �Just my paper route, just my paper route, and boy when I would get those penny and nickel tips—you know when you’re nine years old or ten years old, and I had that job right into high school. Interviewer: “What were your options? You had a fairly decent relationship with your father and with your mother, what did you talk about? Obviously professional baseball was not in the discussions about what you were going to do with your life before this happened”. (19:03) Right, right, it—well, I ran home, I mean I ran, I sprinted, I could have beat Owens that day. I ran upstairs and I said, “Oh daddy, daddy, daddy”, and he said, “What happened, what happened?” I said, “Daddy, they want me to play, they want me to play”, and he said, “I knew, I knew it” so, I said, “Mama, can I play ball? Can I play ball?” “Ask your father, ask your father”, and I said, “Daddy said yes, daddy said yes” so, I brought the details home and made these friends, Mary Lou Studnicka you know, Ann O’Dowd, we were picked for the Southside team (19:56) and my other friends, Ginger and Champ and some of the gals on the North side, Joan Sindelar, they made the North side team and so, we were going to be playing against each other. (20:11) Interviewer: “Now, you were getting paid, right?” Well, no pay, we got our streetcar fare and I think we got fifty cents and that would have been a lot of money because streetcar fare was a nickel and that would have been ten cents round trip and that would leave us fifteen cents for a hamburger and a malt. (20:40) That was the extent of it, just get on—maybe it was a little less, but fifty cents sticks in— and that was so much money when I think of those nickel tips. We were paid that and I was still active in the park districts and we were playing volleyball and we had a good volleyball team. I love that sport to this day. As a kid I loved to go out there and watch and my grand kids play, but we were playing in the park district tournament and we were playing for the championship and we won, we won. (21:35) We were just so happy, so happy and before they gave the medals out, that’s what you could win, a nice medal, I was called in the office and the lady who was in charge, the director of this, she said to me, “Dolly, do you play baseball?” And I said, “Oh ya, I do play”, and she said, “Do you get paid?” I said, “No, I get money for the streetcar to go there”< and she said, “Well, we heard you got paid and we have to disqualify your team”, and I said, “You mean we don’t win? Does that mean we don’t win?” She said, “That means you don’t win”. (22:27) Well, our coach, I’ll tell ya, I can feel the pain right now—how could they do this to me for streetcar fare? So, that’s another thing you know, when you’re fourteen or fifteen and that—it just—so, I quit playing volleyball and I just played in adult leagues when I got older. I said, “I’ll show them, just don’t call me grandma” but, I played since and then I stuck to my baseball—still going to school—still in high school now, not being able to play sports—the only thing girls could do in high school—we had a swimming team, but they couldn’t be on the swimming team, but they could be divers. (23:28) We played, of course we played basketball and taking you back a long time ago, we played half court and six on a team and of course we played volleyball so, I got my thrill 6 �of playing volleyball in high school, loved it, had more fun and played ball with the boys, I could practice, they wanted me out there to practice so bad, but when they had a game it was “See you tomorrow Dolly”. (24:04) Interviewer: “So, what were your options when you got out of high school? What were you going work as? Were you going to try to get a job as a nurse or what?” No, this is the most fun, playing with the boys in the field. I played with a young boy, his name is Joe Schoenberg, how that stick out in my mind I don’t know, but we had a Mages Sporting Goods store, Morey Mages and his brothers, I don’t remember his brothers, names, but Joe lived in the apartment building on the first level and Morey Mages lived above him. (24:48) We would talk and he said, “Oh Morey, he owns the sporting goods store” and I don’t know what made me do this, one day after we played ball he said, “Oh, Morey always gets home about five thirty from the store” so, the wheels are turning in Dolly’s head so, I went to the corner where Joe and Mr. Mages lived, and he came by one day and I said, “Mr. Mages?” and he said, “Hello, how are ya?” I said, “Fine, I play ball with Joe Schoenberg”, and he said, “Well, that’s nice”, and I said, “We play at Kuppenheimer Field” and he said, “Oh, that’s nice” and I said, “You know I’m playing ball, baseball with a girls organized team” , and he said, “Well, isn’t that nice?” (25:47) I said, “Mr. Mages, I need a job, can I get a job (very blunt—no tact) at your store?” and I think he was taken back and he said, “We don’t have any ladies in sales, we just have them in the office part”, and I said, “That would be ok, that would be ok, can you use me?” And he said, “I’ll tell ya, come by after school tomorrow or Monday (this was on a Friday) and come see me”, “Wow”, I ran home and told my mom that I talked to Mr. Mages. (26:45) A long time ago we called our mother and father—we either called her mother or him father or mama and daddy, because when dad would go out he would say, “You stay home with mama”, or vice versa. I said, “Mama, mama, Mr. Mages said I could come talk to him about a job”. She said, “Doing what?” I said, “I don’t know, just working” and she said, “Well how much?” and I said, “I don’t know, just working” so, I couldn’t wait until I got home from school, got my paper route done and hopped the streetcar because Mages was on North Avenue and Crawford, it was just off Crawford, west of Crawford and I got dressed up as nice as I could look and I took the streetcar out there. (27:41) I was so excited my heart was just beating and I got to the store and asked one of the sales people and they said he was in his office and to go to his office. So, he said, “Well, hi Dolly” and I said, “Hi Mr. Mages”, and he said, “Well, have you ever sold anything, do you have any experience?” I said, “No, just playing ball” and he said, “Well, how would you like to try to be in the shoe department and sell bowling shoes, ice skates and ski boots?” I thought and said, “Sure, I would like to try, I’d love to”, and I was the first saleswoman for Mages Sporting Goods. (28:38) I loved my job, I loved my job and so, after I graduated and was playing ball, playing ball in the summer and he knew that. I started going to college and I would go right to work after that and then of course the All Americans came to be where—we graduated in 7 �1949 and we went on a barnstorming tour and I worked when I could and I thought, (29:14) “This isn’t fair, maybe there’s somebody who wants the job at Mages” so, I stuck to baseball where I made some money and graduated high school, left my paper route, my customers were very sad too because they got their tips worth when they gave me that five cents and ten cents, their paper was at their door every night and early on Sunday morning. I did that before church. (29:51) Interviewer: “Let’s go back now to—you’ve kind of wrapped up your job and your paper route and all, but how did you find out about the professional All American Women’s League? How did you find out about that?” Well, because of that tryout, which was held by the All American, and I was picked for one of the four teams, which made me a part of the All American. Interviewer: “You’re not being paid though, you said”. We weren’t, but then at the end of 1948, after our season, the four teams were brought together in a meeting and Len Zintack, who was from Chicago and the director of the four teams, (30:38) asked who would be interested in going on a barn storming tour of the United States to introduce the game to the south and the east coast so, Chicago had two teams, they had the Springfield Sallies and the Chicago Colleens, which in 1948 did not make it. Chicago had the Cubs and the Sox and the Bloomer Girls and some very good softball teams and our team just couldn’t bring the crowds in. (31:14) Springfield had the same problem. They had a good minor league team and they had some good softball teams. So, they took the Colleens and the Sallies and they distributed those women to the Peaches and Chicks and the teams in the All Americans, and we became the women and girls who said “yes” they would go on a tour and we became the Sallies and the Colleens and we traveled together on one bus touring. We started in Oklahoma City, toured the south, New Orleans, Pensacola—(31:59) Interviewer: “Playing against each other?” Yes, against each other. Maybe on day I was a Colleen and one day I was a Sally, but it didn’t make any difference, people were out to see the two teams play. We were heavily advertised and we had wonderful crowds, we had wonderful crowds and they accepted us. There was no one saying that girls can’t play baseball because we showed them a very good brand of baseball. (32:29) Interviewer: “What were you wearing?” We were wearing the uniforms of the All Americans, the ones the Colleens and Sally’s had. Interviewer: “What did it look like?” 8 �It was like the pictures you see today, the uniform of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. Interviewer: “You had a baseball cap and a top, but then there was a skirt.” The—Mrs. Wrigley designed those uniforms. She wanted every one of the women to look like ladies and the men, the manager, play like men, and that’s what we wore. It was a skirted uniform with shorts underneath and the stockings up to our calf. 33:14 Interviewer: “How did you feel about this? This is a different time, now you can walk around in a skirt and you can have it as short or as long as you want, there is no difference, but in those days women didn’t wear skirts like that.” No we didn’t and if you find a picture of the first four women who played ball, you will notice their skirts are almost to their knees, which was still—you know, if you’re sliding and your skirts coming up and you’re going see the shorts, but that’s all you’re going to see. Well, each year the gals took a hem up, which was ok, the chaperones never said anything and I don’t think anyone was reprimanded for taking a hem up and making the skirt a little shorter. (34:08) Interviewer: “The reason is because of the running and the—?” Probably the running, and people say, “Well how did you ever slide or play in those skirts?” And this was the easiest thing to do because we had shorts on and like so many high school and college teams have today, we had a little skirt that covered that, which made it a little more feminine looking. The charm school of course-Interviewer: “You had to go through the charm school?” That was in the beginning of the league and I didn’t join the league until, you know, 1949 or 1948 so, I was not into make-up, but the chaperones made sure that when you were out in public, you looked like a lady in al phases at all times. (35:08) Interviewer: “You did this barnstorming tour, which was playing basically against the same teams that you were playing with. When did that shift into being part of the league that played other cities and other towns?” After the 1949 barnstorming tour, which ended in—I believe it ended in August, sometime in August, we were all allocated to teams in the All American League. So, my friend Delores Muir, who just passed away two weeks ago, we were sent to the South Bend Blue Sox. Dave Bancroft accepted us and I don’t think I played a game because it was about two weeks. I think I was there long enough for a 1949 team picture and Grand Rapids needed an infielder and South Bend needed a pitcher so, I was traded. (36:13) I joined the Grand Rapids Chicks in 1949. Most of the gals did the exact—they were sent to South Band and Fort Wayne and Peoria. 9 �Interviewer: “What was your first impression of Grand Rapids when you came here?” This is kind of a small city compared to Chicago. I said to somebody, “I would like to go downtown, how long is it going to take me?” And they said, “Oh, five or ten minutes”. I lived in Madison Square and I said, “Five or ten minutes, what?” And they said, “The bus will get you down there”, and that reminds me—my mother came to visit and she said she wanted to go downtown. Well, I had a game to get ready for so I said, “Ok mama, you’re going to go to Hall St. and the fire department is on the corner of Madison and the bus will stop and he’ll take you downtown. (37:16) Now, notice the number of the bus and where you got off and that’s where you’ll get on” and she said, “Ok, no problem”. Well, I get a phone call and the first thing she asked the bus driver was she wants to go down to the loop and he said, “You must be from Chicago?” Well, she wanted to go downtown and she got off at the wrong stop and she went into the fire department, which was just down the street, but she didn’t recognize anything and they told her where she wanted to go. (37:52) That’s just kind of a side story, but I love Grand Rapids, I love Grand Rapids and it was so fun to play here and the people I stayed with, they treated us like their daughters. I stayed on Horton Street, right off Cottage Grove and these people, like I say, we paid them our rent, I don’t remember what it was a month, not much, but they always told us the refrigerator is always open. On our day off they would say, “Dolly, would you like to have dinner with us tonight?” (38:38) We were so a part of their family and so welcomed here that I’m sure the minor league baseball teams that we have today stay with these families and are treated like their sons and you don’t forget. Interviewer: “Lets go back to—you signed up originally with this one team and you were traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks. You’re getting paid now and there’s a contract, give us some idea what that was about. You had to sign a contract for what. What period of time and how much were you paid?” (39:17) Well, first of all when I agreed to go on that barnstorming tour, my mother and dad had to go downtown to the Wrigley Building and sign a contract because I was just sixteen. So, off on the El we went to the Wrigley Building. They gave their permission and when I got to South Bend or Grand Rapids, I had signed a contract on my own, I was eighteen and I made sixty-five dollars a week and that was really big money. (40:00) I didn’t even make that at Mages Sporting Goods. When I was on the tour, going back to the tour in 1949, I want to say we made twenty-five dollars a week, but of course everything was paid for, our hotel, of course the bus, we didn’t have to worry about—we did have to buy our own meals, but I had enough money that when I left I said to my mother, “I’m going to send you some money home and I want you to go buy yourself some stockings or a slip, I want you to treat yourself to something, treat yourself and do not put this money away, treat yourself, I’m ok”. (40:45) When I got home, going back now to 1949, when I got home I said, “What did you buy mama? What did you buy? Did you buy yourself some new shoes or stocking or a slip or a dress?” She said, “No, I saved the money for you”, and I said, “Mother, why did you 10 �do this? I sent the money for you to treat yourself”, and she said, “I knew you would need it for school” and so, “Ok, I got money”. I don’t remember what I had, two hundred dollars or something like that in savings so, I went to my dad and I said, “Daddy can I buy a car?” He said, “What are you going to use a car for?” I said, “I don’t know, can I buy a car?” (41:51) He said, “We’ll see”. Well, he and my uncle, my uncle Rudy, go out looking for a car—now, I haven’t graduated yet from high school in 1949 so, one day I come home from school—take the streetcar—came home from school and he said, “I got a surprise for you”, and I said, “We’re going to get a car, we’re going to get a car?” and he said, “Come on outside”. I almost cried, I mean I almost cried because here was this 1936 Plymouth four door—here’s your car, and I don’t know if people go back and log into old cars, but they have the back door—the front door opened this way and the back door opened this way. Well, I really didn’t want a four door gray car, but what could I say— he would probably say, “Well, I’ll take it back”. Well Ok, I have a car and the next day I said, “Daddy can I take my car to school?” (43:08) Well, he jumped out of his chair and he said, “Are you crazy? Are you crazy? Nobody drives a car to school, you take the streetcar”. So, there I am ten cents on the streetcar and I have this 1936 Plymouth sitting in front of my house, but that’s the way it was back then. If you see the schoolyards today, there are not many that don’t drive. It was fun to do this, it was fun to do this and in high school I was about to graduate and my class honored me with the most likely to succeed and in my log, Frigate, you know, the ship— we had the log and in there it said that I wanted to be a professional baseball player, long before the dream came true, and being outstanding athlete in my class, which made me proud. (44:25) I also was in the concert band and concert orchestra—I played the trombone. I had wonderful, wonderful years in high school and all through school. Now I’m a professional baseball player and when we have our reunions, I take the log with me and I say, “Ok you guys, how many else lived up to what they put in the log?” Interviewer: “Tell us about your experience with the Grand Rapids Chicks. Do you remember your first game with them?” Oh yes, the first game was Racine, Wisconsin and I was put right into the lineup and the first two times at bat, I got hits and I will never forget that. (45:09) Since that first game it became a little bit more difficult to get a hit because they knew I couldn’t hit a curve ball and all those wonderful pitchers we had who threw fast ball with a hop on it, they had equally wonderful curveballs. All they had to do was throw that to me, but we played at South Field, the Grand Rapids Chicks played, and of course South Field was a football field before they made it a baseball field. Of course we had a short right field and with the fast balls, I could make line drives to right field—I was a good hitter to right—but of course they knew I wasn’t that speed demon that a long time ago I was and they would throw me out at first. (46:12) Well, there went my batting average so, I was good field no hit, but I remember those first two hits in Racine , Wisconsin. Interviewer: “What was your position with the Grand Rapids Chicks?” 11 �I played third base, but at times I played second base, when our pitcher Zig would be on the mound. I think because I was a good infielder and I had played second at one time, I could make the double play very easy—it wasn’t difficult for me to do that—I started out as a shortstop back in the schoolyard days, you know, Luke Appling. Interviewer: “Professionally though, you were a third baseman?” Yes. Interviewer: “Who were some of the teams you were playing at that time?” We played of course, the “Rockford Peaches”, “South Bend Blue Sox”, “Peoria Red Wings”, “Fort Wayne Daisies”, “Racine Belles”, “Kenosha Comets”, “Muskegon Lassies”, when the league started to slow down and attendance—Battle Creek bought the “Belles” so, we had the “Battle Creek Belles”, Muskegon slowed down so, Kalamazoo, Michigan bought the “Lassies” and we had the “Kalamazoo Lassies”. 47:37 Interviewer: “What was a season like? The first season you played with them? Was it a lot of traveling; was it a lot of home games? What was the actual season like?” I think we were split—home and away games. We played seven days a week, double headers on holidays and Sundays and there were a lot of rain dances. We looked forward to rain when we didn’t have a day off for a long time, but occasionally we had a day off. Usually if we were traveling we’d have a night game and travel in the morning either to South Bend—wouldn’t make the long trip to Peoria, we would stop at South Bend or Fort Wayne or Rockford before going on to the longer miles. (48:35) Interviewer: “What were these road trips like? I that when you’re traveling a lot and then you have to play a game and then you’re traveling some more, but you’re young of course, you’re very young, but what were these road trips like for you? Did you like them? Were they tiring? Were they fun?” You learn to sleep on the bus. We traveled on the Division Avenue bus line, which was a step above a school bus, the seats were more comfortable, and so, you could take a nap. They were fun, you would sit with a friend and chat and sometimes we would sing. Sunday morning Alma Ziegler give her sermons so, we had a touch of religion in there one way or another. (49:37) Interviewer: “This is the baseball playing nun you were talking about?” No, this was Alma Ziegler, Gabby Ziegler who played for the Grand Rapids Chicks. I never played with our former nun. I did play with Tony Palermo, his sister Toni Marie Palermo, she’s still in the convent, and when we have reunions today, Saturday night she gets on the podium and reminds everybody that Sunday is tomorrow morning and “Do you have your wakeup call in there? (50:15) If you don’t go to church you know we’ll pray hard for you.” So, we do have a nun still in the convent. Alice Harnet was a nun—we had three nuns—we have three 12 �physicians—three doctor. Mary Roundtree, who was a catcher for the Grand Rapids Chicks sometime ago, just passed away in Miami and she was a surgeon, a very, very outstanding doctor and Audrey Wagner played for, oh gosh, I don’t want to get this wrong, I believe the Kenosha Comets and she was a doctoring California and she flew her own plane and she was going to a medical convention and crashed. So, we lost not only lost one of the outstanding outfielders and hitters and outstanding physicians, but we lost Audrey too. (51:26) Interviewer: “These road trips to other towns, had you traveled—I know you were from Chicago and Chicago of course is a big city with a lot of different types of people and different things around you—groups and what not. How different was it when you went to all these other towns? Was there a sense of I’m in a new town here, I’m from a big city and this is a small town, what were your reactions to these other areas and places?” Of course the towns were all the size of Grand Rapids so we enjoyed it. We stayed in very nice hotels, we were given three dollars a day meal money so, we always had that fifty-nine cent breakfast. If there was a good movie and we didn’t have to play until evening, we took in the first feature. We saved our two and a half dollars for an evening meal and sometimes that would only cost us a dollar and a half so we saved a dollar. (52:31) The towns were lovely, the fans of course were anti-Chicks, but they only treated us that way when we were at the ball field, you know boo, boo, boo and what have you. Cheered hard for their teams, Fort Wayne was noted—they had a tailor in Fort Wayne and of course we had to wear skirts, and it seemed like every team visited this tailor to have their skirts made. (53:03) We would pick the material up and he would measure us up and then on our next trip back, we would pick-up our skirts and you could tell everyone who had their skirts made by him, they were very tailored. I think I wore them when I was married. I mean the herringbones and the wool skirts so; I remember that about Fort Wayne. Fort Wayne also had a sporting goods store that would carry spikes our sizes. Rawlings made the spikes and they would carry a size four or a size five, specially made for the women. Another city that’s well known is, I believe, Racine that had the Jockey--Jockey Cooper and they made the men’s underwear. Well, at one time they would turn their factory over for a short period and they would make Jockey underwear for the women, of course a whole different pattern in the front, but we would always order out undies from Jockey so, those are two towns. (54:34) Interviewer: “What ever happened to your—the place you worked for, the sports place you worked for in Chicago?” Mages? You know, I believe Mages sold his stores when he retired. Interviewer: “I mean when you became a baseball player and they were actually paying you to be a professional baseball player did you ever go back there?” 13 �I did, I did and I talked to all my friends there and they kept saying, “You’re playing baseball now and I’d have some pictures to show them and they were quite proud and I said, “Now you catch our games if you go to Kenosha, which is a short drive”, That’s where my mom and dad would catch our games, up in Kenosha. “It’s a short drive— come see us and call me and let me know if you’re coming and I’ll get you tickets”, so, they were quite proud that I made a stepping stone to something I loved. (55:37) Interviewer: “How did your dad react to that?” Oh, my dad was so proud. He would tell everybody, my Dolly is playing baseball, softball, my Dolly is playing baseball and we’re going to see her next weekend. They had a car—I don’t know what happened to my 1936 Plymouth, I guess when I left for Grand Rapids, I didn’t take that car. He probably sold it, which was good and I don’t remember back then, but I know I didn’t have my gray Plymouth anymore. (56:17) People at Mages were quite proud of me and I’d always ask them, “Do you miss me in the shoe department?” When I’d talk to people, especially when I’d sell them a pair of ski boots I’d say, “Well, where do you ski?” They would say, “Well, in northern Michigan”, and I’d say “Northern Michigan, past Grand Rapids?” “Oh, Boyne City and Traverse City”, and not being familiar with northern Michigan, I said, “Oh, I think that’s quite a bit North of Grand Rapids, I play ball there”, and they would say, “Oh, you do?” Of course they wouldn’t see me in the summertime so, I’d sell ski boots and of course bowling shoes and going back to 19—in the early forties, when the war started, in 1943 my uncle enlisted, that was my fathers very best friend. (57:19) Now, my dad bowled too and again, “tag along Dolly”, I can remember the Windy City Bowling—they were bowling alleys back then, not bowling lanes, and he would take me and they would have the best orange soda in the whole world so, “Daddy, daddy can I go with you tonight? Can I go with you?” and he would take me with him and the first thing we would get in there, he would go to the bar and I’d have my orange soda and he would say, “Now, sit and be quiet”, and I would say, “Oh, I’ll be very quiet”. I would watch his team bowl and I said to him one time, “Can I try this game? Can I try bowling?” and he said, “Ok” so, one Sunday morning after church we went to the bowling part and he got me a ball with small finger holes and my father always bent over, it was very unique, he always bent over and the ball hung down and he would push away. (58:19) That’s the way I bowl, I followed his form, and there was sometimes the pin boys, you know, they were off to war and they wouldn’t have one and he would go back to the pits and he would set pins for me and then I would go back to the pits and I would set a game for him. That way it only cost us a nickel instead of a dime to bowl a game. Interviewer: “Let’s get back to baseball.” I was just going to say that I became a professional bowler too. Interviewer: “I didn’t know that. The first game you said you played with the Grand Rapids, Chicks and you had two hits and after that it was a lot more difficult to get hits because the pitchers were on to you. Is that because you played you played these teams so often, they were able to—there weren’t that many teams for one thing—“ 14 �There were eight teams at that time. Interviewer: “Eight teams.” They each had—I would say, they each had four pitchers so, I didn’t face everybody in the same series or time after time, but I’m sure I faced all of the pitchers at one time or another. (59:40) Interviewer: “How was your first season?” It was good, it was good, my batting average wasn’t that bad, of course it wasn’t 300, but I had a good season on the field, I enjoyed playing along side of my team mates, who were very helpful, John Rawlings was our manager and he was a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates and very knowledgeable Hall of Fame player, and because my hitting wasn’t the best, I would have to go out there every day we were home and he would pitch to me. Today I realize what I was doing wrong. (01:00:31) I was not throwing my arms out at the ball, I was kind of crimping in on them and I think back, “No wonder I wasn’t a good hitter, now I have to tell the kids how to throw the bat at the ball” . Interviewer: “What were some of your memorable games? Which ones really stick out in your mind?” I find that question, not impossible, but difficult, because every game out there was a joy for me. I looked forward to every game we played, there was never a game where I was bored, there was never a time in my life I was bored, Always something to do, (01:01:23) I guess the one game—it was in Kalamazoo and probably the shocker of my life because I hit one off the fence in center field and it was right off the top of the fence and it came back into the field and I only got a triple, I don’t know if I scored or not or what happened because I was in seventh heaven—to see me hit that ball that far—I think John Rawlings fainted in the dugout. I don’t even know if my team cheered for me because they must have all been in shock. (01:02:03) That’s one game that stands out ant that was extremely fun. Interviewer: “I have seen film footage of professionals like you sliding into a base and it doesn’t look comfortable. Could you explain what it was like to actually slide into a base?” (01:02:29) One experience that I had—now we’ll be shocked again because I got a hit, and I’m standing on first and not taking a big lead off and John Rawlings gives me the steal sign and I’m thinking, “Does he know who he’s giving a steal sign to?” Old turtle Dolly? Well, he thought I could get a—the pitcher had a high kick and “ok, he’s giving me the steal sign”, I’ll show him I can do it. So, off I take and I slid and I was safe, but I had the biggest, hurtingest strawberry in the whole world. (01:03:24) Well, everybody is saying, “Just shake it off, shake it off”, well I’m not going to cry out there—I’d like to— eventually a hit was made and I scored. I got to the dugout, Dotty Hunter waiting for me 15 �because she knew. Out came the methialate, we had the fan going, which is all your teammates blowing and I’m thinking, “This is going to burn, this is going to burn like the fires of hell”. On goes the methialate, on goes the bandage, a big bandage—get out there and play. (01:04:09) Well, I did my job, “It doesn’t hurt until the next day I’m thinking, it doesn’t hurt more until the next day”. The next time I get up—this should be my most memorable game— Dolly gets a hit—“I got another hit, this pitcher must like me, she’s grooving it”. I’m standing at first and I look over across the playing field and John Rawlings gives me the steal sign again and I’m thinking, “If I have to slide, they’re taking me to Butterworth Hospital or some hospital that’s nearby, I know it for sure”. He gives me the steal sign— well, up it goes, a high kick again and I ran in there. The catcher threw it to center field—I didn’t have to slide and I’m thinking, everybody in the dugout is clapping too, “Hey she made it to second”. Well, I don’t know if I scored on that one or not, but John, as I came in, he was smiling at me and I said, “Did you think I was going slide again?” He just smiled and walked away. (01:05:33) I guess maybe we’ll chuck that hitting the top of the fence and use this as my most memorable game. Two hits and a strawberry and the “ouchie”. It takes a while for that to go away and it starts peeling and you want another hit, but if John gives me the steal sign again I’ll really cry. Interviewer: “Did anybody ever get hurt that you remember, beaned on the head with a ball or anything like that?” I don’t remember, I remember not getting beaned, but going back to the barnstorming tour, one of our Cuban gals had a fastball, but she also had a very fast curve ball and I was batting against her and she had thrown me a fastball and it was high, and I knew she was going to throw me another fastball—I knew it, I knew it—I stood in that box and here comes that fastball right at my arm, but I thought it was going to curve because she was kind of smiling—that she would throw me the curve and get me to go for it—so, I’m waiting for the fast curve and that ball is coming so fast and it didn’t curve and I didn’t get out of the way and it hit my arm. (01:07:18) I couldn’t lift my arm for two or three days and it was black and blue and of course we were on the barnstorming tour and we were all living together and I said, “I thought you were going to throw me a curve”, and she said, “I a fool a you, right Dolly?” I said, “You didn’t fool me, you hurt me”, but to this day we’re still friends. Interviewer: “The crowds initially were big, but you said there was a period of time where it started to get less, the crowds were less and less. Did you actually notice that?” Of course I was through playing in 1952, but I had still gone to some of the games in 1953. I was in an automobile accident and hurt my leg so, that kind of finished my playing career, but so many people ask, “Why did the league fold? Why did the people?” This my own theory, now high schools were-this was really a family gathering, families came to our games and now high schools were beginning to blossom out and have activities in the evening. Cars now had gas so, dad could go here and mother could go to the movies and get her dish. Back then if you went to the movies on Wednesday night, 16 �you could make a dish collection. Of course television was in the ballgame now and who wanted to go out when Uncle Miltie was on? No body, your Show of Shows, they kept the family around this new invention, television. (01:09:28) So, we saw the crowds drop and like I say, it was a family and the family went from a closeness to everybody is out doing their own thing so, the money wasn’t there to pay us and it wasn’t coming from anywhere but the fans, and I always like to add this today, “We see the family now today, coming back together. Who’s at the football games together? Who’s at the soccer games together? Who takes the kids out to the golf course together? It’s mom and dad and the kids and this is so wonderful because our children need this today. They need to know that the family once again cares”. (01:10:27) Interviewer. “I know you have been asked a variation on this question before, but we know for a fact, the fact that you played baseball, that women played professional baseball, did have an impact on the changing attitudes that schools had toward girls playing sports and whatnot and now, as you well know, there’s soccer teams, girls baseball team, there’s all kinds of things. What is your personal opinion? What do you think was the effect, not just you, but your fellow players had on the attitudes that people had towards girls and women?” I am so proud to have been a part of the All Americans and to show people that women had skills and if title nine was passed not only because of us, now young ladies can see their dreams come true, like we saw our dreams, we are so proud to have been a part of this and I went to a couple of the U.S. Olympic Softball Team games and these women, these young women come up and to us and hug us and say “Thank you, because of you, we can do this”, and not only myself, but you can talk to the oldest player in our league or the youngest and they have the same pride that I do, and young girls, no matter what they play, the Olympians, to be so proud of that team and to have them say, “Because of you, we’re here”, makes us so proud. (01:12:38) Interviewer: “Baseball Hall of Fame, tell us about—how did you find out? What happened?” The Baseball Hall of Fame, you know, we didn’t put on any marches, we didn’t put on any protests, but we had a group of women in Fort Wayne, Dottie Collins—it was our first board of directors that slowly went there and show them. Ted Spencer—let me tell you something about Ted Spencer, the Curator. (01:13:27) He was schooled in Boston and it just so happens that one of the players we had in 1943 named Mary Pratt, happened to be a gym teacher, not PE, gym teacher in the one of the Boston schools. One of her students was this young boy named Ted Spencer. Well, when we started, I want to say we, but I talk about this board slowly infiltrating—no protests, just presenting the facts. Going there, she found out that Ted Spencer happens to be the curator of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. (01:14:27) Well, what an in. so, she goes there, the Hall has a lot of her memorabilia, she contacts our board and now they start having meetings with him and this has gone on since we became an organization, a players organization in 1982, and we now get the word that there’s a possibility that the hall of fame would recognize the All American Girls 17 �professional baseball league. How excited, how excited—I know a lot of the women today say that we’ve been inducted and it’s because their proud, but in 1988, November 5th, 1988, the National Baseball Hall of Fame recognized all of the All American Girls. (01:15:33) They wanted to induct—there were some names thrown at them for induction, but our board said, “No, we want to go in as a group. If we’re not inducted, we would be honored to be recognized”, and Jane Forbes Clark, who is the CEO of—and has been one of our biggest supporters, they have had us there on Mothers Day, and we have signed autographs, they have—the tenth anniversary of the movie, they had Penny Marshall and the movie stars, and we were invited to go along and she signed a book and we had dinner with them, they have promoted us, they have things in their gift shop that are related to us, they show the movie, Abbott and Costello, A League of Their Own and in the bleachers, which is a section of the hall of fame, we had our sixtieth reunion and Cooperstown wasn’t big enough to hold all the women who were going to be there so, we stayed in Syracuse, but we had buses take us there. (01:17:03) We had a breakfast in honor of us, we had, right in the hall where the pictures of the hall of famers are, they had tables set with white table clothes and they had waiters in tuxedos and white gloves, and they just honored us in the highest praise they could give us and they do this, they do this. Now when they remodeled, we have a display on the second floor which has pictures and memorabilia and the honor they have given us, we are so proud of. (01:17:55) Interviewer: “That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful. What’s your relationship with the Whitecaps here locally?” Before they became the Whitecaps I knew Lew Chamberlin and I talked to him because he would have lunch at Crystal Springs Country Club. We belong there and we knew they were working on bringing a baseball team and so many times I would sit down at the table and say, “Lew, Grand Rapids, Michigan needs baseball back here again, don’t give up your dream, don’t give up the pushing, don’t give up the hope, of bringing someone here”, and Mr. VanderWitte is a friend of Lew’s and a friend of mine so, when I would see him I’d say,” Please, keep prodding him, keep prodding him, people may give him negative this and that, look what happened here, look what happened there, we need baseball here”. (01:19:13) So, I have been, not the last couple of years—summers have been really—I’ve been out on speaking engagements and doing a lot of traveling, but we were the first ones to have box seats out there the first season and I can go up and into the office and knock on the door and say, “How ya going? How’s everything?” “Good, good”, and Jim Jarecki and their all very close to my heart. Don’t worry, they’ll bring the—they’ve had so many championships; you have to be proud of this team. Interviewer: “They are very supportive of this project by the way. I have met with Dan McCrath and with Jim and they are very much supporting the idea of doing this documentary film. In fact they even helped—next summer they are going to have some announcements and we are going to be helping to be part of this Library of Congress Veterans History Project, to get the veterans who are in that crowd to 18 �come forward and be interviewed. I was very, very pleased with their respect for not only the project it’s self, but for the “Chicks”. (01:20:22) It’s interesting, somebody told me that one of the Grand Rapids Chicks threw a ball out this last season, was that you or do you know who it was?” I didn’t throw out this season, but we’ve thrown them out several times and Jim has said, “You know we’ve got to get you girls back there again this year”. I’ve been kind of proud because I’ve thrown the first ball out for the Braves and the Yankees. The Braves in Cleveland, the Braves in St. Louis, down at spring training, and two summers ago, maybe three, time flies when you have fun, I was invited out to Washington D.C. to the Nationals game, to throw out the first pitch there, and they were playing the Cubs. (01:21:11) We had a rain delay for a while, but eventually they called me to the mound. I threw a perfect strike at the catcher, he never moved his glove, and forty seven thousand people gave me a standing ovation, but now I don’t know why. Is it because I threw the strike? Is it because an eighty-six year old lady could run? Or eighty—eighty, what am I talking about? I’m only seventy-six, or I’ll just call it an old lady, could throw the ball? (01:21:52) When I finished throwing that pitch, I got off the field and was going back to the seats, of course everybody was standing and clapping and high fives and there were two ladies that yelled and came running out there and had to have pictures so, were standing in the aisle and we even held up the beer man for pictures. That was one of my extremely fun outings. Interviewer: “As we close, is there anything that you want to say? Something that you think is important to get on the record about your experience with playing baseball?” (01:22:37) The girls and myself had this extra ordinary experience playing baseball in the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. It was a time that we don’t know if ever will happen again. We were born at the right time, we were in the right place and our experience that we had then and that we have now, speaking and making this type of documentary, the honor it has given us, and we will keep doing it until the grass is above us. We love what we do—the grandmas out there now do not baby sit anymore, we’ve told our children to go get a baby sitter because we’re busy doing and telling our story to people who want to hear it. (01:23:44) Interviewer: “Thank you so much, it was a real pleasure” You’re welcome, you’re welcome. 19 �20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_DKonwinski Title A name given to the resource Konwinski, Dolores L. (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Konwinski, Dolores L. Description An account of the resource Dolly Konwinski was born on May 27, 1931 in Chicago Illinois. Starting at the age of seven, she played baseball with a neighborhood team and her father who encouraged her to pursue it. In 1947, Konwinski got her big break and tried out for one of the four teams the All American Girls Professional Baseball League was trying to form in Chicago. She began her professional career playing for the Chicago Colleens. In 1949, after the barnstorming tour she was allocated to play for the Springfield Sallies. In 1950, she was traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks and played mainly for them until 1952 but played for a brief time with the Battle Creek Belles in 1951. During her professional career she mainly played second and third base. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-10-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46e76177bf4bad76c8ed62c2bab42ddb.mp4 8f808669c7f25f4611510fdc70dfafb9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1ae86c8895cf896f1d085fc3932a4876.pdf 6b9b9c6bc6e4e3866fb497939ab903ba PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Interviewee’s Name: Ronald Konyndyk Length of Interview: 1:10:32 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman Interviewer: We’re talking today with Ron Konyndyk of Muskegon, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, so Ron, start with some background on yourself and to begin with: where and when were you born? I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan into a very good home, with a very stable home; a father that went to work every day and a mother that stayed home and took care of us kids every day, and ended up going through high school and then going on to college after that. Probably the biggest reason for going to college was to avoid the draft. Interviewer: Okay, let’s back up a little bit and fill in a couple of things. What year were you born? In 1944. Interviewer: Alright. And where was your father when you were born? He was in the Army, he had been drafted a little later on. I even had an older brother, too, so they were taking just about everybody at that time. Interviewer: Right. And you don’t know a whole lot about your father’s service career? Well, we’re digging now where we’re starting to find out some things. I have a brother and a sister that are very diligent and working to find out more. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and then what was your father doing for a living when you were growing up? He worked as an executive at a furniture company. �Interviewer: Okay. And when did you finish high school? Finished highschool in 1962, June of ‘62. Interviewer: Okay, and where did you go to college? (2:13) I went to Ferris State College in Big Rapids, Michigan. Took a few courses once and awhile at Davenport College because they would transfer back and forth. It was a little cheaper to do it that way because then I could live at home, too. Interviewer: Alright. And just divided up the college time a little bit that way, but the last two years, three years, something like that was all at Ferris State University. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you take a degree in? It was business. Interviewer: All right, now did you work while you were in school? Yes. Worked very hard because I paid my entire tuition bill myself. I guess my folks weren’t happy with the way I didn’t apply myself in high school like I probably should have, and weren’t real willing to support me in my college endeavors so I had a job, a lot of different jobs but the primary one was I was working a night shift at Keeler Brass Company two nights a week and one of the nights was Friday night, so went and did it that way. Paid very good so I was able to pay for my own car and my own tuition and my own room and board. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and when did you graduate? I graduated in May of 1967. Interviewer: All right. Now, had you already had a draft physical or something like that early on? They were constantly hounding me because there was one term where I didn’t take any classes and because of that they really started getting on my case, I just worked. I had a fella in our church that was in the real estate business—they knew I took a bunch of real estate courses and he said “Come to work for me for a while” which I did. Enjoyed that very much, should have �gone back to that after my Vietnam experience but I didn’t. But I enjoyed that and had to go back to college because the draft people were all over me at that time. It was amazing the way they kept track of me. Interviewer: Okay, so, basically did you have to demonstrate to them that you were in fact returning to school the next term? Oh yes. They had to see copies of everything. Interviewer: All right. So you knew you were already basically on their list and once you graduated you were going to get drafted. (5:00) And that’s why I was in no hurry to finish and I kept thinking that the Vietnam War was going to start to wind down and they weren’t going to need as many people but unfortunately it kept ramping up the whole time to the point where in 1967, when I graduated, boy—they were after everybody they could get. Interviewer: All right. And when did you get the draft notice? Well, I got the draft notice probably the week after I graduated, but what I was trying to do to stall things was I was trying to enlist in the Air Force, but I only wanted to do that if I could get in this specific area in Officers Training School, and I even had Jerry Ford who was my representative at that time try to help me out, but he couldn’t even get me in Officers Training School because everybody that was graduating from college was doing that. Interviewer: Right. And so then I thought, “Well, my only hope is just they’ll find a good job for me and I’ll be out in 2 years instead of 4 years.” Interviewer: Right, cause if you’re drafted, in the Army anyway, then it’s two-years. Two years, yup. Interviewer: Okay, so you are able to delay induction for a while by doing this. So when do you actually have to report for training? I reported for training, I think it was on December 7th of 1967. Interviewer: Okay. At this point what did you know about Vietnam? �I knew it was kind of a nasty war and it was escalating and… it was kind of a little bit before all the protests were coming in and that kind of stuff. Right after I got here, then that just started to explode. Interviewer: All right. Now, what’s the sequence for processing you? Where do you report initially and where do they send you? Well… I got on a bus right at the draft board in downtown Grand Rapids and they took us on a bus down to Detroit, I think it was Fort Jefferson or something like that. Interviewer: Yeah, or Fort Wayne, maybe? (7:15) Or Fort Wayne, something like that, I knew it was on Jefferson Street, I think. Because then you had to go through all your physical stuff for pretty much the whole day. Interviewer: Okay. And I always tell the story that I was on the bus with a fellow that I knew a little bit and he was determined, when he got off the bus in Detroit, that he was headed for the border because that was another way to avoid it, and never saw him again. To this day, I’ve never seen him, but he was not on the plane that night headed to Fort Knox. Interviewer: Alright, did you consider going to Canada or were you just do your thing? You know… I had pretty much made up my mind ahead of time that I had to do what I had to do and I’m sure my family would have been disappointed. There was no end to, at that time, people going to Canada. You didn’t know when you could ever come back. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now when you do the physical there at Detroit, how serious a physical was it? It was… not all—I was disappointed because they were giving me a test for colorblindness and they flipped through all the things, you had to read the number on every page and, you know, I couldn’t see a lot of them cause I do have colorblindness and the guy slammed the book shut, he said, “We’re going through this again.” I get done and he says, “Anybody ever tell you you’re color blind?” I says “Yeah, I couldn’t tell a brown uniform from a green one or a black one.” and he says, “You still pass.” Interviewer: When Uncle Sam needs you… �He needs you, it was off to Fort Knox. Interviewer: Did you notice anybody trying to scam the system in one way or another? Or do anything that would get them kicked out? No, not really. Interviewer: All right. Some people do, some don’t, so I ask. Well, if you were doing that you had to do it way ahead of the physical. Interviewer: All right, so now you basically spend a day and then they load you on up? (9:30) A charter plane… Interviewer: Okay. To Fort Nox. Interviewer: All right. That’s down in Kentucky. Yup. Interviewer: What kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox? Your world is completely changed. You gotta do everything an E-2 Corporal tells you you have to do or your in trouble, and you learn discipline that way, so and, you know, they really enforced a lot of things because what they needed was discipline. So. And then you have to go through the thing of getting all kinds of shots and getting issued all your equipment and your clothes, that kind of stuff, and assembled into different companies and your barracks. Interviewer: Were you one of the older guys there? Yes. Interviewer: Were there some other guys like you who had been to college and got drafted? �When we were in the big room with all of us—there were 180 of us and they asked how many graduated from high school. Only about half the hands went up, and then they asked how many graduated from 4 years of college and there were 4. That really told me right there. Interviewer: Okay, now then, what does the training itself consist of? We had to go through all kinds of different things. Every day was something: one day that really stood out was when we had to go in tear gas and take off our mask and tell them what our name and what our army number was and all that, and then put the gas mask back on and clear it before we could leave out of there and that was not a pleasant experience. But one of the other, we had to march up to the rifle range a lot and do a lot of different training and learn how to set all the settings on your rifle. Interviewer: And what kind of rifle were you training with? We were actually training with the… it was not the M-16, I think it was the M-14 or something like that. Interviewer: Yeah. So they didn’t have enough M-16s and it really wasn’t until much later before I was going to Vietnam that I had to go spend a day with an M-16. Interviewer: Yeah, because the M-14 is a very different weapon, it was kind of an improved version of the old World War 1 M-1. It was an antique compared to the M-16. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, and now what kind of physical shape were you in when you went in? (12:23) Not too bad, I think I weighed about 190 lbs. By the time I got out of Vietnam I was down to about 170 but by the time I was home for about 3 months I was back up to 190 in a hurry. Interviewer: All right. And how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to the army way of doing things? Actually, it was easier then what I thought it was gonna be because our drill sergeants were all from Alabama, and being at Fort Knox in January and February that year they had a ton of snow, and these guys didn’t wanna go out and get their shiny boots and their pressed pants all messed �up, so we got out of doing a lot of stuff other people had to do if they were there in better weather months. Interviewer: All right. And then what about the discipline part, did you figure out what they were doing? Oh yes, I could just see that immediately and I really looked at that as being a good thing because I think a lot of these guys ended up needing some real discipline training. It didn’t bother me, I could handle it, I had to be disciplined anyhow going through college, paying your own way. You had to get up for class, I had to come up with enough money to pay the bills, all that kind of stuff. Interviewer: So if you just did what they told you to do… Right. Interviewer: Okay, you could get through. So how long was basics? It was about 8 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. And now, at that point what happens to you? (14:06) Well, after basic then you get orders as to where you’re gonna go for your next level of training, and of course at that time most of the guys were going on to Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana and I was kind of fortunate because they had done a lot of testing on us before we really started on basic training, and one of the things in one of the tests at the very end of the test, the last item was diagraming a cathode ray tube and I had just gotten my last course at Ferris was a physical science class where we learned all about a cathode ray tube. So I could just draw that thing out and early on in basic training a captain came over one night and asked to see me in the barracks, and of course you’re scared when that happens because you think what happened, did one of your parents die or, you know, are you being accused of something you didn’t do or what’s going on? And he took me over to the day room and he put some money in a pop machine and bought me a coke and had a bunch of papers there and he says, “Yeah,” he said, “I’m in charge of testing and we have never had anybody completely diagram that cathode ray tube that I can remember, but” he says, “You did” and he says, “I got an offer for you you can’t refuse.” he said “I can send you, at this point, for” I don’t know what it was, it was almost 8 months of training at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey which was kind of known as a country club among army bases, “For electronics school, and here you have to sign for another year.” and I had to look at him and say, “No, I’m not signing.” and he says, “Well, they’ll you’ll probably go on with the rest of these guys to Fort Polk, Louisiana.” and that was the end of it. And so I went through the �rest of basic training and shortly at the day we’re all getting our orders, I open up mine and it was for Fort Monmouth, New Jersey for radio school and I didn’t have to sign up for the other year. Interviewer: How about that. And that was nice because it was like going to college. Interviewer: Okay, so what was it like? It was… going to classes and we were being tested every week for what we knew and some of the tests were they had radio stuff in front of us that we had to troubleshoot, it was always kind of funny because some of these guys were putting their tester in and they were just getting a shock and getting blown right off their stool, you know, they were kind of distracting when we were having these tests and you’re trying to troubleshoot and here the guy next to you is got blown off his stool by a shock. But, and if anybody didn’t pass they would have to go take that previous week over again and I don’t know how many times you got to do that before they booted you, but I went through right on schedule but what they told us right up front was half the class was gonna go to Aviano, Italy and the other half was going to the 52nd Signal Corps Battalion in Vietnam. So I knew I was in the Aviano, Italy part of it and the last week one of the guys that was going into the Vietnam part didn’t pass and my name being K was right in the middle and I got transferred into the Vietnam side, so all the time I was going to class there I thought “Man, I’m going to Aviano, Italy, I’m gonna enjoy this army thing.” so it’s a little devastating to get that change at the last minute. Interviewer: All right, now did they treat you differently at Monmouth than they had at Fort Knox? (18:23) Oh, totally. Totally. They just left you alone, come Saturday or Sunday, if you wanted to sleep in the barracks you could sleep in the barracks; if you wanted to go to New York, which was close by, you could go into New York; you could go out surfing, you could check out even a surfboard and go surfing at Longbranch, New Jersey if you wanted to. It was that nice. Interviewer: Okay, and how long is that school? Well, it was from February until August. Interviewer: Okay. So it wasn’t quite as long as the school they were gonna send you to with the extension cause I think they said 8 months? Or do you think it's— �Well, I was saying it’s 8 months, it was maybe 6 months-something. Interviewer: Okay, so you go the same course basically. I got the same course. Interviewer: Now what were they actually preparing you to do? Well, they wanted me to operate in microwave radio, which was kind of a line-of-sight good for maybe 40 or 60 miles depending on the terrain but when I got over to Vietnam they unloaded a whole bunch more on me and it was—we had tropospheric scatter communications and we were relaying stuff between our, you know, for the 9th infantry division and they would send guys out to a little fire base somewhere, they had to have some communications and that’s what we had to wire in so that they could be talking to whoever they needed to talk to for air strikes or ammunition or food or, whatever. Interviewer: All right. So, you have this nice extended period of training and then now you get to the end of it and you find out at the end okay, you’re going to Vietnam. Now what did they do to prepare you to go to Vietnam? (20:16) They sent me out to Fort Dix for a Saturday learning the M-16, which I did well in because I ended up getting my expert badge and I was not a big guy for guns, I didn’t hunt or didn’t collect guns or anything like that. Interviewer: But they weren’t teaching you anything about Vietnam as a place or anything like that? You were constantly hearing about it, why you were doing this and why you were doing that. Interviewer: Okay. All right, so it’s sort of integrated in your training in that sense. But that was just while you were doing the rest of your training? Training, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. All right. Now do they give you a leave home before they ship you to Vietnam? They did. Yup, I went home for a week or two or something like that. Interviewer: Okay. And now what’s the process for getting into Vietnam? �Well, I had to fly to Oakland, California where they loaded you on a plane and it was kind of a three-legged flight to Tokyo or to Yokota Air Base or something like that, and then to Okinawa and then to Vietnam. Interviewer: All right, and where do you land in Vietnam? We landed north of Saigon in Long Binh. What’s the name of the place… Interviewer: Okay, and what’s your first impression of Vietnam when you get there? The smell. It was not like anything I had experienced, so, but… it wasn’t where you were immediately cast into battle. I, you know, had to go through a few things—they even sent me out to a communications base in Vũng Tàu which was right on the South China Sea to become a little bit familiar with the equipment that I was gonna be using and then I got sent to a place called Dong Tam where they were moving the 9th Infantry Division from Bearcat into Dong Tam and so they were still building barracks, they were still clearing land. I went the first three months there without having a shower to stand under, I had to stand under the tin roof when it rained and try to scrub myself, or I had to go down to the Mekong River which was right there which was a dirty, brown river and try to bathe in there but shortly thereafter we, you know, and it could have been almost 3 months before they put a tank up in the air painted black that they would come and fill up with water, and you had this little chain you had to pull when you wanted some water on you. Interviewer: All right. So you landed in Long Binh, how long did you stay at Long Binh? (23:19) Maybe a week at most. Interviewer: Okay. What do you do during that time? Time? You’re just going to different orientations and things like that. Interviewer: Okay, and now are they trying to explain Vietnam to you or? Yeah. Interviewer: All right, anything about that training that stands out for you? �Well, they really didn’t tell me about the basics, you know, the fact that how all these communist countries were trying to expand their territory and why North Vietnam wanted South Vietnam, and they didn’t explain to me what the problem was in South Vietnam which was corruption in the government. That was never explained, figured that out on my own by what I was reading in the news and things like that. Interviewer: Okay. But they didn’t teach you anything about the local culture or customs or dos and don’ts? Not much because you did not get into those kinds of areas. Interviewer: Okay. You were separated from it. You really didn’t want to, cuz you didn’t know who was Vietcong and who… you know, who was a good Vietnamese citizen? Interviewer: And then how did they get you out to Vũng Tàu? (24:36) By helicopter. Interviewer: Okay. Had you been ridden in helicopters before or was that new? That was the first. First of many, had a lot of helicopter rides, that was the workhorse there. Interviewer: Okay, and then what was the facility of Vũng Tàu like? It was on top of a pretty high hill and it was an old French outpost, and the bunkers were still there in the side of the hill as you rode up to the top, you could see where the old cement bunkers were from the French. Interviewer: And was that area fairly quiet while you were there? That was the quietest area you could ever be in. Interviewer: All right. Because it was at the end of a long peninsula so it could be controlled. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you stay there? �I think maybe a month, something like that. Interviewer: And now what equipment were they training you on for that? They had—that was where they had the tropospheric scatter set-up. Interviewer: And explain what that is. That is where they take signals and they bounce them off the ionosphere to get a bigger distance. And there was not a direct cable between Washington D.C. and Vietnam and they were always needing secure communications that could not be interrupted, and that was just a new way to go a very long distance, whereas the microwave was very limited. Interviewer: Okay. And so you’re learning that and then was there—what facilities did you have there, what kind of barracks did you have? It was just the regular barracks that we had built the same way in Dong Tam is what there were already in Vũng Tàu. But Vũng Tàu is the main center for bouncing everything back to the US and what we ended up doing in Dong Tam really was just connecting into their stuff, we did not have as many tropospheric scatter things in Dong Tam. Interviewer: So your job was just reporting kind of from the division back to Vũng Tàu and then Vũng Tàu would send stuff. (27:07) Well we had—we did have some direct circuits going back to Washington. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and then on the base at Vũng Tàu did they have Vietnamese working there, were they all Americans? Don’t really remember Vietnamese there. Interviewer: Okay. All right, now you’re sent down to Dong Tam and describe that area. Well it was along the Mekong River, probably… I would say about 5 miles, that’s my estimation, west of a town called Mỹ Tho which was a fairly significant town. I got through it several times during my stay there, we had a little outpost down in Bến Tre that I had to go down there several times, you know, by Jeep or by truck and we did have a little outpost, too, of communications at Mỹ Tho. It was in an old…I heard it was a seminary building, but where I was in Dong Tam there was nothing there. The Marine River Force came in there and dug a little harbor for all of their boats and then beyond that they cleared a whole area for the 9th Infantry �Division. 9th Infantry Division had a lot of helicopters, too, so it was a base for a lot of helicopters. I would say 100 or 150 of them and they all had them parked between bunker walls so that if mortar rounds came in they were halfway protected, and that was what was the problem at Dong Tam was mortar rounds coming in all the time. I kept a diary while I was there and there were 183 mortar attacks during my time there. Interviewer: And that’s in… In Dong Tam. Interviewer: And how many months were you actually there, were you there a full year? I was there—I was in Vietnam a whole year but probably a good 9 or 10 months in Dong Tam. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, so that’s a pretty regular mortaring then. Yes, that was… you know, and when I say that, we might get a mortar attack and we might get one at night, you know, so that counted as two even though they were on the same day but generally we had to really take cover when we heard the first round come in because the Vietcong were burying tubes to send those, so they didn’t know if they were gonna hit our base or not, they just put them at an angle where they figured it might hit and, but if the first one hit in the base we set off the siren which told them, “Hey, that’s a good tube!” so here would come another but by the time they had the third one on the way we had something else on the way back to them to wipe out their mortar turret. So then they have to start all over. Interviewer: And so, typically in one of these attacks how many rounds would they fire? (30:28) Generally 3. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, so these were not heavy bombardments. No—well, there were some nights where you would have that happen maybe four or five times during the night. Interviewer: Did you ever get hit by rockets or anything bigger? Well these were kind of like rockets, really, I mean when they exploded that shrapnel went just everywhere and we had it come right through the walls of the barracks, I wasn’t there but two weeks and I figured out I wanted to be on the first level of the barracks, that’s where the �sandbags were around, because the guy sleeping in the bunk above me one night, his arm hanging out just above my head and a piece of shrapnel came through right through his hand and wiped out all those bones in his hand. Just. Boom. First round, hit right outside of our barracks and… that told me to move downstairs in a hurry. Interviewer: Okay. Now, lets see, you were part of a signal battalion and you were attached to the 9th Division. Yes. Interviewer: How many men from your battalion were there? I think probably only about 15. Interviewer: Okay. And was that the group that you hung out with? Yeah. Interviewer: Did you associate much with the other army guys of the 9th Division? Nope. Never—we talked to them on the radio but that was about it. Interviewer: But would you, I mean, eat with them or? Yeah we would eat with them but we never got to know them because we were always with our own people, and a lot of times were we didn’t get a lunch break; we’d have our tin tray with our food brought in to us. Interviewer: Okay. And… so what do you remember about the guys who were in your unit, are there any particular ones that stand out for you? (32:21) Well there were three that I went through my training in Fort Monmouth with. Two of them—no, three of them that were with me over there. Interviewer: And did you get along with each other? We did. We did. Got along very well. In fact one of them even after I got home, I was out in California and I stopped in to see him but the other one that we were real close to, I looked him up on the internet and he still lives in Arizona where he was from but I haven’t made any effort to contact him. �Interviewer: Okay. So, did you have a daily routine there? Well, our routine was we were on 12 hours and we were off 12 hours, 7 days a week, so if we were writing letters or doing tape recordings or whatever we had to do it in the 12 hours that we were not on. And we kind of alternated back and forth; we’d work days for a while and I would work nights, that was like from 7 am to 7 at night or you started at 7 at night and worked till 7 in the morning. Interviewer: Okay. And so how much activity do you have on a shift? Were you constantly sending or resending messages? Yeah. There were all kinds of new things that had to be wired in to our communications man and things that—circuits that were not working that we had to troubleshoot, find out what was wrong, that sort of thing. And we had to do enemy activity reports. We had small equipment repairs and sometimes we would even have to take a piece of equipment back to Vũng Tàu because that’s where the repair shop was and get it repaired. Then we got to stay there a day or two while they repaired it and they had the nice beach there where we could hang out, so that wasn’t—we kinda fought for that, to be able to take a piece of equipment back. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you have a sense of, given what you were doing, of sort of how the war was going or at least how the war in your area was going? (34:40) Well, you know, every report we got was that we were just knocking em dead, we were stacking up Vietcong body bags and, you know? But we were losing people, too. But, you know, we had to rely too much on information from the news media back in the states and I know from the enemy activity reports that we sent in that they were not being reported accurately and I can remember one that we typed up during the night, I mean we got hit by I think it was 4 bazooka rounds. Hardly made note of it, you know, but so we sent that in that way that during the night at various times we got hit by four rounds of bazooka but no damage, no casualties. Then my parents send me the clipping back from the newspaper and it says that Dong Tam weathered an all night bazooka barrage, so, you know, the news people were starting on that then already and really started turning the country against the war. Interviewer: Well that’s a piece of a rather bigger puzzle but yeah, after the Tet Offensive coverage… Ramped up. �Interviewer: Ramped up a lot, yeah. And that’s something I heard from a lot of different people who were there, even somebody who was at Dong Tam talking about talking to journalists and stuff and finding out what they were doing, what would the editors wanted and didn’t want and everything else, so that’s all going on but from as far as you could tell it was kind of being successful at what it was trying to do? Well they had kind of not concentrated on that area much, and as a result the Vietcong kind of infiltrated it and then the Navy's riverine force came in there to that river because they were coming down through Cambodia and taking all their supplies into the Vietcong down that river, and I remember flying over it in a helicopter and I mean it’s just, pothole after pothole after pothole where the sides of that river had been bombed. So. Interviewer: All right. Okay, now at Dong Tam do you have Vietnamese working on the base there? We did, yeah. But what they generally were was the wives and kids of Vietnamese who were serving in the army of the Republic of Vietnam, that’s who they trusted to do that and we had absolutely no problem with it. Interviewer: Okay, and what kind of jobs do they do? They, in some cases, washed our clothes, they shined our boots, changed our bedding. Yeah, we had it pretty good, really. Interviewer: Oh so did you…where you were quartered were all 15 of you basically in the same building? (37:57) Yes. Same barracks. Interviewer: And then did you have any of these, you know, women working for you as hooch maids or do you have somebody who washed your clothes or things like that? Yeah it was pretty regular, we had an older woman and her daughter that serviced our area, so. Interviewer: Okay. And… Paid ‘em just about nothing. You know? Interviewer: But in Vietnam it was something. �It was something, yeah. Interviewer: All right. Now, what was it like to go out to some of these smaller bases, what do you remember about that? That was… you know, it was scary. Cause you were out in the open and we had it one time where somebody did take some shots at us from a tree but in the back of the truck were guys with M-16s and next thing you know his body’s falling out of the tree. So. Interviewer: So that’s when you were en route from one place to another? Yeah. Interviewer: And did you have to worry about mines or IEDs? Yup, cause we had several guys that were in our barracks that were not in our unit but they had rode over them and lost arms and whatnot, even got killed some of em. Even got killed. And we had one group, you know, from Mỹ Tho that was trying to bring some equipment, I think it was, over to us and they did it at night and they should have never been out at night, and they got shot right out of their Jeep. Just… they own the night. The Vietcong own the night. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did the pattern of enemy activity change much over the course of the year you were there? No. Interviewer: Okay, so it’s still pretty much the same. (39:45) Yup. Yeah it… it just didn’t seem like there was great progress. Interviewer: Yeah. Were there ever incidents where sappers tried to get into the wire or get into the base? There was one time that was during a Tet Offensive where they wanted—they tried to come over the barrier along our little air strip, and our air strip was all these sections of metal that were pieced together. Interviewer: Right. �And I can still remember a Cobra helicopter come down along that berm that was right along the runway there and as he was shooting down it was like somebody was throwing a bunch of shiny tin can covers up in the air because they were bouncing off that metal work, but that pretty much got stem, they did get to an oil tank and set that off but that was really about the extent of it. Interviewer: Okay, and that was Tet ‘69? Yes. Interviewer: Yeah. Cause normally when we say Tet Offensive we think ‘68 but the fact was that there was one that day. That’s one’s talking about ‘68 was the one… there was one in ‘69 too, but it was much much weaker than the on ein ‘68. Interviewer: Right. So for the most part you could kind of go about your business on the base except for dodging the mortars. Yup. Interviewer: Now, when the mortar attacks came could you go into a bunker? We had a big, heavy duty bunker and there was one instance where… I forget where I was but I wanted to get back to the bunker, I knew rounds were coming in, so I was out in the open with another guy and we were running to get to the bunker and he got to the doorway of the bunker and I was, you know, three or four feet behind him so I was not to the doorway yet and one of the rounds hit our ammunition dump. And when that thing went up that was a concussion explosion I just will never forget, I’ve never experienced anything like that. It curled up the tin, our corrugated tin on our roofs; it blew the screens out of the window and the fella that was ahead of me got pushed into the bunker by the force of the concussion. I got knocked off my feet, I was laying on the ground, but he felt all kinds of stones and stuff hit him in the back, which he thought a mortar round had landed right behind him and blew him in and that his back was full of holes. And I kind of crawled into the bunker and he saw me crawl in and he thought I was gone and I was fine. And we had took about five minutes to convince him he had no holes in his back, but he was good, it was just stones that had hit him, so. Interviewer: Alright. And… did you get—so when you went into other places, what would you, if you went to Ben Het or you went to Mỹ Tho or something like that, what were you doing? (43:07) �Bringing equipment. Exchanges, that sort of thing. A couple times I went with our commanding officer with the payroll, that was probably the most, and a lot of times I wouldn’t mind doing it cuz if I went down to Ben Tre the nice thing about being at Ben Tre was they had flush toilets. Something we didn’t have, that was a treat. Interviewer: Now, did you do anything in the villages or towns outside of the bases or did you kind of just stick to bases? No, just didn’t trust everything. Interviewer: Now was there some kind of village or settlement outside of Dong Tam, did the Vietnamese congregate there at all? No. Nope, it was out kind of in the middle of nowhere. Interviewer: So the people who worked on the base, did they come in from Mỹ Tho? They came in from Mỹ Tho, they had their motor scoots with five, ten people piled on a motor scooter. It was hilarious to see how many people they could fit on a motor scooter. The only thing we did once and awhile was we would have to leave the base to go to the garbage dump, because when these mortar rounds would come in there would be a bunch of tin that was chewed up and screens that got stuff and a bunch of wood with holes in it and it would all get loaded on a truck and we’d take it to the dump, and that was always interesting cause the stuff never made it to the dump. When you were turning down the road to go into the dump the grandmothers were all sitting along the side of the road and they had all these little grandchildren that would come up running for the truck, and they would wanna be on that truck while it was still moving and start sorting through what was on it and throw it off, and then somebody down on the ground would take it and drag it back to grandma and she would guard it. But by the time we got to the actual dump there wasn’t much to unload. Sometimes there wasn’t even anything. Turn around and come home, and I actually saw houses built out of wood that when our mortar rounds came in these wooden boxes and homes were built out of the lumber from those wooden boxes. Interviewer: All right. Now, did you get any R&R time while you were in Vietnam? (45:39) I did. In fact I managed 2 of them, and the way I did that is I took the first one to Singapore because I thought, “Boy, Singapore is some place that’s gonna be very hard to get to later in life.” so I went there and spent a week there and it was wonderful, it just blew me away what a modern city that was, was more modern than anything I had seen in the United States. And then shortly before I was leaving, it was really at the beginning of August, I found out that all the R&R slots we had for our company weren’t being used because some of the guys, you had to �show you had a certain amount of money before you could go, and these guys they couldn’t save any money or they were sending it all home to their wife or whatever, but there was a slot open at the beginning of August. I thought, “I got the money, I’m gonna take it.” so I took an R&R to Australia which was their winter but I was a skater so I got on a plane in Sydney and I flew on to a town called Kuma in the mountains and went skiing at Thredbo, and that was a real treat. Had my nose dripping and it’s cold after having been in Vietnam, so. Interviewer: All right. But I wasn’t sending money home to my parents or a wife or anything like that, so. Interviewer: And you weren’t squandering it in gambling or…? There really wasn’t much chance to do that because you could go to PX, you could buy beer for 10 cents a can, a pack of cigarettes for 20 cents not that I smoked, but I did buy some stereo equipment through the PX in Japan and had it sent to my brother, but that was about all I could spend money on and I was getting hazardous duty pay, I was E-5 and all that, so. Interviewer: Okay. And I guess without a town there, there weren’t as many opportunities for people to squander their money on things they shouldn’t be doing. No. But a lot of guys were, you know, they were buying a bunch of junk out of the PX, junk food. So we did have a PX on our base. Interviewer: Right. You could get a lot of stuff from. Interviewer: Okay. Now, there are a variety of stereotypes about what we on in Vietnam and so, I kind of asked just to see what your take was, but one of them has to do with the use of drugs. Were there people on the base who were using different things? Yeah. Interviewer: What did you observe? (48:21) There were a few. There were a few and marijuana was the thing of choice but I to this day have never touched marijuana, never wanted to because I guess going over there, my whole thing was I wanted to come home. I wanted to make it home and if you’re drunk or you don’t have all your facilities about you and something happens, I want to have my wits about me at all times and I �saw this happen one night, that one guy he had had way too much beer or marijuana or something but we were watching a movie on the side of the building, had painted one of the sides of the building white and we would get movies every so often and they would show a movie. And during the movie, oop, hear a mortar round comes in not too far away and once you knew one was coming in there was gonna be the two more following and they’re going to be right in that same area, and so this one was close and on the way to the bunker which wasn’t that far away he tripped because he didn’t see one of the things that we were sitting on—we had a bunch of big timbers that we were sitting on and he didn’t see it and he tripped right over it and he caught a lot of shrapnel. He survived it but we never saw him again, but he ended up going to Japan for treatment and that just enforces it in your mind that you wanna take a drug like that? And risk not having all your facilities about you when it comes time when you need them? Interviewer: Okay. Another thing that comes up is the question of race and racial tensions, I mean, was your little unit all white or did you have a mix of guys? We had a mix. And I was, you know, the army was really one of the places where I really got thrown in the mix because when I was in School of Commerce there at Ferris there weren’t many people of color or even different ethnicities there, I mean it was just mainly white guys. Interviewer: Yeah. So, but got along beautifully we had no problems no issues and if they were in the signal battalion they knew how to live, they knew how to act, there weren’t those kinds of problems. Interviewer: Right. Okay, and I mean that’s typical of units like that in Vietnam as far as I can tell. (51:08) I don’t know what it was like in an infantry unit. Interviewer: Okay. Now, to think back over the time that you spent in Vietnam are there other particular incidents that kind of stand out in your memory or things that you think of when you think of being there? There were a lot of hazardous, you know, I would say close calls. You don’t get them out of your mind, I mean they stick with you and some things you never found out what happened. For instance, one time I was taking a piece of equipment in to Vũng Tàu to have it repaired and I was in a string of helicopters, there were probably 3 of them and I was in the last one. And the first one, all of a sudden, boom big old cloud of smoke, and then we went around and came back towards where that smoke was coming from and they dropped down to a level that was right at treetop and they old helicopter was just moving up like this, you know, so it couldn’t get shot at. �Where it’s like the helicopter was hanging on the end of a rope and just going all over the place, and one of the pilots said to me, “Unhook your seatbelt and lay on the floor, cause we’re gonna be landing.” and just as we landed I could see a helicopter coming from the other way that put a smokescreen across the opening and then we were right up against some trees and we weren’t on that ground for four or five seconds, and here these two guys come running out of the trees with their helmets on, with their cords hanging in it. They jump in the helicopter and they plug in and they’re talking to the two pilots. In the meantime that helicopters all of a sudden taking off, they didn’t tell me to get back in or fasten my seatbelt, all of a sudden I’m laying on the floor holding on to the supports of the seat keeping from sliding out because they took off on a real slant, and when I got to Vũng Tàu the helicopter never landed. They hovered at about 3 feet off the ground and had me jump off with the piece of equipment. I never found out what happened—did they get shot down? Did something blow up in the airplane or, you know, what happened? I have a feeling they got shot down, but I don’t know. Interviewer: Yeah… all right. So, other incidents that kind of stand out for you? Yeah it was just the damage that was done by that ammo dump blowing up. It was all over the base, it was just tremendous. You know, I never knew where the ammo dump was, I never knew what was in it, nothing like that. Interviewer: Was it just a single explosion? Single explosion. Just absolutely rocked everything. Interviewer: Alright. Now as you got close to the time for your year in Vietnam to end, were you counting down the days or keeping track of it? Oh, everybody had a calendar with it marked down and I had a decision in June that—I don’t know who it was, was it Nixon?---was gonna be removing some people and wanted the Army Republic of Vietnam to take over some of the areas, and our base was one of them and so at the beginning of June they said, “You can go outta here early and go back to—” it was Hawaii to the Schofield Barracks, “and serve out the rest of your year over there, or you can stay til the end of August and get out and go home.” So I thought, “Well, you know, if they’re doing this chances are I can survive it here and then I’m out four months of three months early.” and that really worried me after I made that decision, I was committed, and the Army of the Republic of Vietnam was coming in and they just didn’t have it, you know? I was worried for my safety. Interviewer: So they were now coming on to the base and providing base security and that kind of thing? (55:55) �Right, right. Interviewer: What did you see of them or what impression did they make on you? Well, one thing we noticed is one morning, outside of our barracks, we had a nice drinking fountain—-it’s gone. So. We were worried about our stuff being stolen and one thing that I had there was. when somebody was rotating out of the country they had one of these small refrigerators that they had just come out with and they were the neatest little things, and the guy was getting out at the end of the month when nobody had any money so the price that he was getting for that refrigerator was going down, down, down. Finally I got it for $25 but I had that thing there and I would sell beers in the bunkers, you know, after a mortar attack really calmed down and we would have to wait for the all clear and sometimes we’d have to wait a half an hour even though we knew everything had calmed down. Well I could sneak in and get a couple of beers, I could sell em for a couple bucks a piece in the bunker and so I more than got my money out of it, but I was afraid that thing was gonna be gone. Interviewer: A little bit different question—your radio equipment that you were using, was that in a bunker or a building or a trailer, what was it in? Part of it, most of it, was in a bunker which we had 10 by 10 timbers over top of us with sand bags all the way around it, and then we had another communications trailer that was not bunkered very well with sandbags outside and most of our communications stuff was on a couple scaffold towers, and we had the antennas up there and about halfway up a couple spotters would sit in there all day, too, to spot the rounds that were coming in, so they used it for that. One of the times there, it was kind of funny that somebody went and had a bulldozer, I forget what they were doing, but they backed into one of the guy-wires holding up that scaffolding and it just twisted right down to the ground. There’s two guys in it, they just rode it right to the ground, unfortunately all of our antennas came down with it and it wasn’t that hard to put it back up, which we did and you know started hooking everything back up, and I went for a 36-hour stretch there with not a break, you know, getting everything hooked back up because these guys out in the field were just absolutely dependent on our communications and we got it back up in 36hours and our commanding officer was bringing us our food so we weren’t gonna take time in the mess hall, and we get the thing back up and operating I already said within 36-hours and he gets the brown star. Interviewer: Well… Yeah, I figured out that’s how the army works and, you know. �Interviewer: All right, now your story is featured in a book by a local author, Rick Vuyst, who met different veterans and so forth and talked with, and one of the things he noted in the book was that you took a lot of pictures. Yeah. Interviewer: How did that come about? (59:29) Well I bought one of these little small Instamatic cameras that came up, they were really neat and I could carry it in the pocket and, you know, if it was bad weather or whatever I could even have it in a little plastic bag just to keep it dry. Interviewer: Right. But yeah, I was out snapping pictures all the time, I was having a good time doing that and they were on a little plastic—there were like 20 pictures on a little plastic case, and then you would send them in to have them developed and I would have them sent back to my parents and they’d send them back to me first, and now what I would do is I would look at them and I would give a description as to what was going on on each one of them and then I ended up doing that with about 600 slides, and unfortunately today I don’t know what happened to most of them, I’ve still got about 150 of them. You know, I tell a good story but… I’m just baffled as to where they went. Interviewer: But when you got back from Vietnam did you just put all that stuff away? Yup. Yeah, it all… like I said, it got packaged in a box and…that was it. Interviewer: Okay, so when you’re winding down, getting into the last days, how many days in advance did you know when you were leaving? (1:00:53) You left right on the—the day was already assigned. Interviewer: Okay. Now, I kind of cheated and wanted to get out of that base so I kind of went there to the outprocess, I think, two days ahead of time hoping I could get out 2 days early. They wouldn’t let me. But we left out of that Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon and that was quite a trip when you got a plane loaded of guys and you clear the coastline of Vietnam, there was just cheering and there wasn’t highfives back in those days, same kind of activity. We were all very happy that we were on the way home, we’d cleared the airspace, but then when we got back to Oakland nobody �was ready for us. It was Friday night of Labor Day weekend and everybody had the weekend off, so we’re sitting there: no food, no physicals, no nothing and finally one of the guys—I don’t know if it was on Saturday or whatever—went and called his congressman. And all of a sudden on Sunday, boy, there were a few people starting to show up and we started to get processed out Sunday afternoon, and I got on an airplane—they held the door for me at the San Francisco Airport, if you can imagine, to make a flight to Chicago. So I never even had a chance to call my parents until I got to Chicago. Interviewer: And then did you— And I had to fly out to Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Alright. So, but they did at least outprocess you—I mean it was some kind of discharge process for you on that Sunday? But it was very minimal, you know, I didn’t get a physical, I didn’t get a dental check, all this kind of—I didn’t get my medals, you know? None of that. That was just bare basics, just enough paperwork so that you could get out and get on an airplane. Interviewer: Okay. And now, once you get back home again now what do you do? (1:03:02) Well, the job that I had I could go back to, so my parents had a bunch of people over on Labor Day at their house so all the relatives were there, and then come Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday I had the luck to buy a car because I wanted to start work the following Monday and went right back to my job that following Monday. Just put everything behind me and… all done. Interviewer: That was with the real estate job? No this was when I graduate from Ferris, Keeler Brass Company in Grand Rapids wanted me to work as a production controller cause I’d worked on a lot of different departments there or the time that I was working there part time, you know, going to school. Became production controller for a few months, went to Vietnam, came right back to that job again. Stayed in that job a couple months and then I got transferred to customer service, and then I got moved to High Point, North Carolina as their salesman in High Point, North Carolina because they made furniture and hardware. Interviewer: Okay. So go on to a career from there. Yeah. �Interviewer: Alright. Now, lets see, and somewhere along the line you get married too? Yes. That was after I got back from Vietnam, you know, every girl I’d ever known was married and had a couple kids already, you know, but I did met my wife Mary and she was 8 years younger than I was but we got married and we gotta celebrate 47 years here in another couple months. Interviewer: All right. So how did you wind up back in Michigan? Keeler Brass moved me down. Keeler Brass Company got sold, and after they got sold I wasn’t real happy with the new people that bought the company, and in the meantime one of my big customers for Keeler Brass that I worked with down there was the Lane Furniture Company, and they wanted me to be their rep back in Michigan. So they moved me back to Grand Rapids with my 3 kids. Interviewer: All right. And then has… did the Vietnam experience have any kind of lasting side effects, mental or physical? Well the physical is when I was age 60 I came down with the prostate cancer from the agent orange because that’s how they cleared that whole base where I was, and I didn’t really realize it at the time, all of a sudden I’m in for a physical and my doctor says, “Boy, all of a sudden you PSA number took a good jump. But it’s not danger level, “ he says, “I think something’s wrong.” So they sent me to a urologist, had it checked, says yeah your prostates about 40% cancer and I says, “What do we do about it?” He says “Well, you can do seeds but I won’t guarantee that,” he says, “You could just let it go and die,” he says, “Or, we can do robotic surgery but that’s not always a sure thing either,” he says, “Or, I can just cut you open and do it by hand because, “ he says, “I think I can do the best job that way.” So 8 days later my prostate was gone, but unfortunately after a few years the cancer was back again, so then I went in for 8 weeks of radiation, every day for 8 weeks, and it got through that and looked good for awhile. Couple years later, back again, and that’s what they said about it is, you know, comes on early, you know, at age 60. Comes on very aggressively and it’s very hard to knock it out, so I’m still living with it today, here—what is it. 15 years later? Interviewer: Right. Okay, now does the VA recognize this as… Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. (1:07:26) They did right away. �Interviewer: All right. Right away. I didn’t realize the VA was even in existence until this happened and then everybody kept telling me, “Well you gotta contact the VA.” Interviewer: Okay, and have you had any PTSD type issues? Well I got tested for it right afterward. You know, I was feeling a little depressed after the surgery because, hey they take a very important part of you away, and they tested me and I should have taken in how long the list, but it was a whole bunch of things that I suffered from, but, you know, I never thought they were bad but my wife realized she didn’t like some of them. But, you know, so it helped us meet and figure out why I was doing the things I was doing and when she could understand it and, you know, gave me a little better understanding of why I was doing these things we ended up getting along a lot better. Interviewer: Okay, so, now were these—there’s a lot of different kinds of ways in which the PTSD manifests itself. Sometimes people get angry, they get violent, they just have peculiar behavior patterns. Can you give an example of what yours was like? (1:08:47) Well, you know, the one thing that bugged my wife, you know, we’d go to a motel or hotel or something like that and I was always checking out how many steps it was from the door to the fire escape, you know, and she couldn’t understand that but for me I always had to know the escape routes, I always had to know directions, I was very nutty about directions, maps, which way was north, you know. A lot of crazy things and my ever-vigilance was just driving her nuts because I was always trying to plan what we would do if this happened and then what we would do if that happened and have it all planned out that way. So. Interviewer: And you kind of lived with that all those years and then you kinda figure it out. Years, and then all of a sudden here it was in black and white in front of me: why I was doing what I was doing and she could see why I was doing what I was doing and what it did for our relationship was a lot better as a result. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were there positive things that you took out of your service time? Yeah… it was the discipline part of it. I knew what I had to do, why I had to do it, and that people depended on me when I was in service and in business it was gonna be the same way. �You know, if the company I was working for wasn’t making a profit I wasn’t going to advance, I wasn’t going to advance, I wouldn’t be getting a better job. Interviewer: All right. So, the whole thing makes for a pretty good story, so I’d just like to thank you for coming and sharing it today. No, thank you for the opportunity. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KonyndykR2315V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Konyndyk, Ronald Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06 Title A name given to the resource Konyndyk, Ronald (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Ronald Konyndyk was born in 1944 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where he lived a comfortable childhood and attended local schools. Konyndyk’s father had been drafted into the Army during the Second World War and later worked as an executive at a furniture company. He graduated high school in 1962 and attended Ferris State University for a degree in business, which he achieved in 1967. A week after he graduated, Konyndyk received a draft notice, and on December 7, 1967, he reported to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for Basic Training. After Basic Training, he was specially selected and transferred to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, for a year of Electronics School during which he learned to operate and repair radio communication systems. He was assigned to an old French outpost in a quiet sector of Vietnam before being transferred to the Signal Battalion of the 9th Infantry Division at a more active forward operating base. When he visited smaller forward operating bases in the field to conduct equipment exchanges, Konyndyk remembered being frequently out in the open and working in fear of being fired upon from the jungle. During the Tet Offensive in 1969, North Vietnamese sappers attempted to breach the barrier alongside his base’s airstrip and were successful in destroying one fuel tank before being apprehended. During enemy mortar attacks, he and his peers retreated to an enormous bunker built on the base. While on the base, Konyndyk noticed several cases of drug use amongst the troops, particularly with marijuana, as well as how the units were well integrated without much racial tension. He also purchased a small personal slide camera which he used everywhere he went in the field, accumulating approximately 600 photos over his tour in Vietnam. When his tour ended, Konyndyk was flown from Tan Son Nhut Air Base near Saigon back to the United States where he began the process of leaving the service, where some soldiers never received a physical or their military medals. At sixty years old, Konyndyk developed prostate cancer from his exposure to Agent Orange during his service in Vietnam. Reflecting upon his service, Konyndyk believed the psychological impact of Vietnam contributed towards his paranoia concerning safety, direction, and planning associated with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. He also believed that the service taught him the positive values of discipline and responsibility. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a377d3eae1fbe7799c43cc82ab830c3.pdf 179ffdf03b8ad6e4765cf37a84fe6190 PDF Text Text L'dor V'dor Project Interviews Interview: Beatrice Koolovitz Interviewer: Chavala Ymker Date: November 17, 2018 Interviewer: Today is November, 17 and I am here with. Beatrice: Beatrice Koolovitz. Interviewer: Conducting an oral history for the L’dor v’dor Project. Do you consent to participate and have your history recorded for this project? Beatrice: I do. Interviewer: Alright, so we're going to start off by just asking you to tell me a little bit about yourself and your life. What were you like as a child? As a young adult? Beatrice: I am the oldest of five children in a Catholic family. I was born in Detroit, but at age six, my father and mom moved us to Phoenix, Arizona. So I actually grew up, and my two youngest brothers were born-I’m the oldest of five. My two youngest brothers were born in Phoenix, and that's where we grew up. Went to Catholic grade school, and public high school. And then by around age 19, I started questioning my religion, the Catholic religion. There were things about it I didn't agree with. I already was, I guess thinking about the birth control issue. My first husband and I went to talk to the priest about getting married, and his first question to me was, "Had I ever been or was I planning to join the communist party?" I felt extremely insulted about why he would ask me such a thing, and said, “never mind, I don't want to be married in this church.” So after Phoenix, we moved to Muskegon, in '86. And this is the town where my husband was born and raised. And his mother was getting older, she was a widow, so that's why we moved here. And I took a job at Hackley Hospital, in the operating room. I found out the hospital had tuition reimbursement and would pay for my Bachelor's degree, if I continued to work in the hospital for two years after obtaining such degree. And I thought, I better take advantage of this benefit. That's pretty awesome. Beatrice: So I got an undergrad, a Bachelor of Science from Western Michigan, and one of the I forget what you call optional classes, an elective? I took an elective called "The Christian Tradition" in which I was exposed to other parts of Christianity. As a Catholic, we really didn't call ourselves Christians. We thought Christians were like Baptists. And I didn't know what a Baptist was. I didn't know what a Methodist was, a Presbyterian, I knew nothing about what people's actual beliefs were. Beatrice: So this class was an eye opener to me. One of the segments of Christianity that I was introduced to was Orthodox Christianity, such as the Greek Orthodox 1 �Church, the Russian Orthodox, it's just called Orthodox Christianity. So I thought I would go check that out. I'd already been to a Lutheran Service, I'd been to a Presbyterian, I'd been to a Wesleyan, and nothing seemed significantly persuading me to jump on board. When I got to the Orthodox Church, I began to feel the ancient tradition of that part of Christianity, because they are like one step from Judaism. I wasn't even thinking clearly. Jesus was a Jew, and he practiced Judaism. So the new religion took many segments from Judaism and brought it into Christianity, and I could see that at the Orthodox. I just felt the ancient tradition. Their service uses a lot of the Greek language. They'll repeat everything in Greek three times and then everything in English three times. And I really was feeling, starting to feel comfortable, until I read in the prayer book that you can only be saved, or achieve salvation, through that church. And I thought red flag, not for me. Beatrice: Same thing happened when I read all the Jehovah Witness. They finally gave me their book, and I was reading their book and came across something similar, and said, no this can't be right. What about the people in China? What about the people in the jungle? What about people who can't read? They are good people, but you're telling me they're not saved because they don't believe in Jesus Christ? So I thought there's got to be something else. So I thought what about Judaism? So I started exploring. I started reading, and every book I read I would look at the references, and the bibliography in the book and I would circle titles that looked interesting to me, or write them down, and then start ordering them up at my local library. And I just got deep and deep, and finally I talked to a Jewish gal at Nestle, a former colleague, and said do you know anybody in Muskegon? And she gave me the Rabbi's email address. Beatrice: So I wrote to the Rabbi, and he called me. And he said anyone can have the intellectual capability of becoming a Jew, but it may not be a good fit for you. You need to come to service and see what it's like, if you like it. And I did, from the very first. People were friendly, they were welcoming, they were interested. And I became interested in everything Jewish, to the point where for the last two and a half years, I've read basically nothing but books about Judaism. Philosophy, rituals, conversion books, it just goes on and on, novels so that I've read books by Jewish authors, like oh, I can't remember his first name, but Asch, A-S-C-H is the last name, and then a book of Hebrew poetry I found at some yard sale. I mean if you just keep your eyes open, like I found my menorah at Goodwill. I just had a feeling if I went into the Goodwill, I'd find something Judaic, and there was my menorah. Beatrice: So, this has become my new life, to the point where my Christian brother-in-law says, "Do you mind if I ask you, I mean don't take this the wrong way, but you seem like really obsessed and bring Judaism into every conversation." And he goes, "I used to have a Orthodox Jewish neighbor, and she did the same thing." And I just told him, it's just because it is my life, in a way that being a Christian was not my life. 2 �Beatrice: I mean the first thing I say, the first prayer in the morning, is called the Modeh Ani, and it's where you think God for restoring your soul, which is an analogy for making you survive the night. Thank you for thinking of me. Then we thank God for sanctifying us with his commandments, cause the first thing we do then is wash our hands, do a ritual hand washing in the morning. And then the last thing is, every day we promise to love each other as we love ourselves. And I'm finding that is the hardest commandment, called a mitzvot, of all. Because I continually break that, and I get so upset with myself. So every day for me is trying to treat other people like I would like to be treated, with kindness, with sensitivity. Beatrice: So, and then at night, and during the day, just I'll be looking out at something beautiful and say the Shema, which is kind of our motto. Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ecḥad. God is one, God is almighty. So I'll say that as I'm drifting off to sleep. And then on Shabbat which is Friday Sundown to Saturday Sundown, my husband's at work every Friday, but I light the candles, I have the wine, I have cubes of challah bread in my freezer so I can start Shabbat properly. And I try to adhere to it. I don't work on the weekends, on Saturday. And then Sunday I go back to my regular weekly life and- Interviewer: Could you tell me a little more about your childhood and youth outside of religion? Beatrice: Oh, yeah. I was a tom-girl, and because I'm the oldest of five, I was also a pretty authoritarian. When I grew up we played a game called ‘War.’ And because it was Phoenix, Arizona, and we had these date palms, the dates fall on the ground, and they get hard as rocks because of the sun. And so that was our ammo. And if we ran out of dates we'd use dried up dog turds, because they're just dry as a bone. You know? It’s already- I was bad. I'd cut tails off lizards, we'd put a black widow spider, and a scorpion, and a red ant in a jar and shake it up and watch them stab each other. I was bad. Beatrice: And then we'd play cowboys and Indians 'cause we're out west. And oh, my favorite game was, we would play Nuns. We would put our cardigan sweater around our head and button it there, you know, just the arms were hanging back, and I would hear the neighborhood boys' confessions in the shed. [Laughter] And they were only too eager to get their confessions heard. I don't know what they thought we were going to do in the shed. They were probably disappointed. Tell me your sins. Beatrice: So it was a western kind of life. We didn't wear shoes all summer. We went barefoot. It was 110 degrees, we'd just hop across the desert there in our bare feet. Me and my siblings would walk to the airport during the day while the parents were at work, and I finally Googled it to see how far, it was like three and a half miles one way. We would walk there, through that heat, buy a coke, watch people on the planes coming and going, and then walk back home. We 3 �played softball, tetherball, we were just brown, out-doorsy you know, wild kids. But I was also very studious and got straight A's, and blue first place ribbons from the Catholic Grade School, my whole life. And that intimidated my siblings, 'cause they didn't get any blue ribbons. Beatrice: So that was me, I was pretty goody goody, but I think I was real repressed, I don't know. I didn't know what I wanted to be. My parents didn't give us any guidance as to career. They just said, "You're not better than anybody, you're not worse than anybody. You can be anything you want to be." But in like 1962 in Phoenix, all you could be was a nun, a teacher, a nurse, or a mom, or a secretary. That was about it. I didn't know women could become engineers, or I probably would have gone down that path. I didn't know women could become scientists. I only knew like those five things, which is unfortunate. Beatrice: So, my mother got me interested in nursing school. I was working for Prudential Financial Security Program Office, which is in Mutual Funds. I was a senior underwriter. So I was sitting at a desk and here I was like 22 years old doing this financial work. And I liked it because it was very precise and organized, it's like science. I mean you can't argue with numbers. So I liked that. But, then I realized I got tired of sitting. I wanted to work with people. My mom said, "Why don't you become a nurse?" So I thought okay, I'll apply for nursing school and I got in. And that was the biggest development of me maturing as a person, was becoming a nurse because it was terrifying. I mean, just pretend like what if you had to walk into a room, right now, and change a dressing on someone who just had half of their pelvis removed, their whole leg and half of their pelvis because of cancer. Beatrice: It's sobering. And then over time I developed a way of dealing with some situations that were very difficult. Like sometimes even the surgeon could not clean the wound. He would say, "I'm going to pass out, I can't put my hand in there." I said "I'll do it." So, I found that was my way of serving people. I was a operating room nurse, and so my goal was every person that was under anesthetic, I was there to protect their modesty, their safety, their legal rights. And I took it very seriously. And I only had like a couple minutes with the patient before they went under anesthetic. But I wanted them to know that I would be there doing that for them. I never used to tell them what I was going to do, and I thought if I don't tell them, they don't know. And they're scared, they've never met me. So that worked out really good for both of us. Beatrice: And then that-I just loved that. Giving to people that way, or being with people as they were dying, 'cause later I worked in nursing homes and dialysis. I've had to resuscitate people and prepare bodies. People would get hit by cars, they'd come into the ER and I was the night supervisor, so I had to get their body ready for the family and be there with the outpouring of grief. So nursing, that was the biggest event of my whole life. My own personal things that happened, like getting breast cancer when I was 37 years old, that was no big deal, to me. Really, I didn't cry like maybe five minutes. I just said, "Cut it off, and let me go." 4 �Well don't you want chemo or radiation? No. I refused. And 25 years later, I was still alive so it turned out good. Interviewer: Tell me a little bit about your process of conversion and a little more of what first inspired you. Beatrice: Well, like I said I was inspired by reading that Christianity, the religion I was brought up in, and somehow I missed, after Catholic School and some Catholic High School, somehow I missed the fact that I was supposed to be believing that Jesus was the only way. Somehow I missed that. That went over my head until many years later, until I got retired and had time to cogitate about these important things. Beatrice: So then, when I realized that wasn't my path, and explored Judaism, I felt very encouraged, comfortable. And the Rabbi has informed me that I am going about the conversion process different from anyone else that he's worked with, because I am self-directed. When you convert to Judaism, there's a list of like 10 questions they ask you. Or statements you make, such as I will create a Jewish home. So I've already done that, and what that means is, for me personally, I loved sculpture, I still do. But I got rid of any sculpture in my home. Jews are, since the old testament, they dictate against having an idol, or idolatry. You'll notice our synagogue. You don't see crucifixes. You don't see religious pictures. You don't see all the trappings of Christianity. And that's why, because God said you'll have no other God before me. Beatrice: And I asked to learn Hebrew, and he wanted to teach me. So I had I think nine lessons with him. And then when he was out of town, I had one lesson with Fran, and that was awesome. Fran is such a good teacher. So she got me up to lesson 10 out of 13. So there's three letters of the alphabet that I haven't yet learned. And I've just been too busy right now to focus on learning my Hebrew. You don't have to learn Hebrew when you convert, but I can see that unless I can read the Hebrew from the prayer book, I can't participate fully. And the songs, the music, everything it's all based on Hebrew. That is our language, and it's the language of Israel. So I really am enjoying that part of it. Now I can pick out the letters, and some of the words I can sound out. I'm very clunky and slow, but I really love to be able, I'm almost 70 years old now. Beatrice: Like I said a late bloomer, okay geez, now at 70 she's going to learn Hebrew? Well hey, as long as life, who knows what I'll take up next, you know? So, I read the books, I attended services here. So, like I said I try to observe the ritual, the Sabbath Ritual, the Havdalah Ceremony that happens tonight at sundown, is the saying of good bye to the Sabbath, and then starting your week I say the daily prayers. That just helps keep me focused and hemmed in, and I feel so much more productive. Interviewer: So can you describe what it means for you, to be a Jew? 5 �Beatrice: It means joy. It means gratitude. I've always been, I think pretty positive. So I feel like it fits my personality, 'cause it's a religion of gratitude. We're always thanking God for our breath, the Torah, our lives, I mean my life isn't perfect. You know, there's people in my family that are troubled. I think I trouble them. I mean, we all have health issues, but there isn't anything that's obviously entrapping me. I'm not disabled, I'm perfectly vigorous and busy person, and productive. And I just feel like wow, I feel it's like a perfect fit for me, this religion. I told my husband, this is the happiest I've been in my whole life, really. Interviewer: That's cool. Beatrice: Yeah. Interviewer: So you've talked quite a bit about your practice of Judaism, is there anything else you'd like to share about how you practice? Beatrice: I try to, in my diet, I was a vegetarian for a long time, in my previous life, and then over time, now that I've read about kashrut, K-A-S-H-R-U-T, looks like kashr- Interviewer: Okay yeah. Beatrice: It's pronounced kashrut, that is the basis for a kosher diet. And kosher just means ‘fitting.’ And you go back to the old testament, and it tells you there, what foods Jews can eat. They can have all the plants and fruits, all the fruits and vegetables you want, and nuts, all those fruiting, flowering plants God gave to us. And then he said you can eat certain fish and certain animals. But here's the group of things you cannot eat. Like insects creeping crawling things, and you can't eat any shellfish, so I started. Beatrice: I gave up pork, even before I started coming to synagogue. I think 2012 was the last time I had pork. And then, I started eliminating more and more meat. And then it got down to where the only meat I would eat would be the game that my husband killed, because he does a clean kill that the animal does not suffer. I mean if we had to track that deer for two days or a day, I wouldn't eat it, because it suffered. But he knows how to do a clean kill, so it takes two steps, just out of adrenaline and boom, it's down. I ate that last year. But now that that deer is all gone, I told him he does not need to get a deer for me. If he wants to kill one and donate it to charity, that's fine. Beatrice: So, I just find it a lot easier for me, but I live with a meat eater, and a family that eats meat. So, I'm looking at ways I can incorporate that more, like I look at my cutting board. I have a vinyl cutting board and a wooden cutting board. And I've cut both meat and vegetables on that. And I think I will go get, you know how in food service, and the restaurants, and the cutting boards for vegetables are green, the ones for meat are red, and you don't mix them. All the kitchen staff know that. Everybody with like serve-safe certification, or goes to the culinary 6 �school, that's the code. I'll probably start working on that part of my observance. Beatrice: When I started covering my hair here, people were in shock. The first time I put on my head scarf, it was like, literally, people were shocked and I didn't know why. Well, I found out, that years ago, this congregation was half Orthodox, and half reform. The Orthodox are very strict. There's the reform, are the loosey goosey, there's the conservative that are more observant, and then the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox, are really observant. Like for instance, I could never be Orthodox, because they are like Christian Evangelicals, they believe that the Old Testament said, “a man cannot lay with a man” that you cannot accept any gays, or any kind of other in your community. What kind of religion is that? Beatrice: I mean, I realize, and even though I love the Torah and I love reading it, that's the first time in my life. Catholics never read the Bible. We never read the Bible. I didn't read the Bible until I was like 68 years old. This is the first time in my life, so it's like holy cow. I mean I'm reading about this and it's just mind boggling to me. And I realize at first I took it literally. Like where it says if you know an adulterer, you should take them out and stone them. So I came to synagogue just all in a twit. And Rabbi goes, what's wrong with you? And I go, Oh I read this, and I can't do that. And he goes Beattie, we don't do that. We know better. So it's like okay. Now I realize it's not to be taken literally, except I guess Jews, they pick and choose. Like I'll take the part literally about you can't eat this, you can't eat that. I'm like well that's pretty clear cut. 'Cause that makes sense to me. Beatrice: Recently, on a trip to California, I asked my Christian sisters could I officiate a Shabbat dinner at their home. And they were very curious and all eager and said yes. And it was wonderful. It was wonderful. It went very well. I was thrilled, and I thought, oh this is just what I read about and dreamed about happening. It was beautiful. My sister even was crying. She said it's so beautiful. It was wonderful. And I'm so glad. See they really love me to let me do that. Because I think well what if my husband decided to become a something Amish or something? How open would I be? Interviewer: Yes. Beatrice: You know, and he'd invite me to his services. I went to mass with my sister and her husband. They are very active Catholics. But I remained seated almost the entire time I was there, because I can't stand when they're saying the creed, which is " We believe in Jesus Christ, the son of the father." I'm like I can't stand for things I don't believe. So I probably won't go with them again. I just really wanted to see their new church. Yeah, so my family has been noting that I'm quite obsessed with this topic. They understand it, and I'm trying to pull back and not bring Judaism into every single discussion, every single conversation. But it's hard because it is my new life. It is my new life and I love it. 7 �Interviewer: Can you describe your first memory of coming to temple? Beatrice: Yes. Coming up the front steps, and Fran Fisher who's 97 years old, she was 95 then, her step-daughter, Jackie Fisher was helping her up the front stairs. And so I immediately swooped in, as a nurse, to help too. And I introduced myself, and Jackie introduced herself, and I said well I was a nurse, and she said, "Oh I was too." So just right away it was like bing, first thing. And then we had services in the large chapel, even though there were only like 12 or 14 of us for the services that night. Beatrice: Yeah, and I'll never forget that night, 'cause at the same time, in the park across the street was the party in the park, which is a benefit party every Friday, in the summertime. Different organizations will run it, and get to keep the profits, non-profit organizations, like the Boys N Girls Club, or the Y, or the [inaudible] Optimists, or Rotary. And they typically have a band, so as I walked from the parking lot to the front of the temple, this rock music was playing, and all those people were laughing and drinking beer. And I look over and there's actually a goat over there. I don't know who had a goat, or who would expose a goat to that loud rock music, but I thought this was so biblical. I'm walking to the temple past the goat, and the partiers. You know it was like the heathens are over there. Interviewer: The old goat. Beatrice: With the goat, you know we're over here going to church. So yes, I'll never forget that first night. It was quite a sensory experience. Interviewer: So you haven't been here long. Beatrice: Correct. Interviewer: But, over the time that you have been here. Beatrice: Mm-hmm- Interviewer: What kinds of changes have you seen in the life of B'nai Israel? Beatrice: Well, I've seen things perk up considerably. The fact that we've had a couple clean up days this year. We've cleaned out closets, and starting to look at how outdated things are like the ladies room. And I mentioned that to Merle, and she said, oh well the sisterhood has some money, we could loan you, or give you to clean up the ladies room, to redecorate it and make it modern. And I'm like wow, that's awesome. So, that's what I've seen. And then we've started having pretty much, in the winter it's so cold up in the chapel, that we just stay in the basement, and then in the summer, we just stayed down there because it was cool. 8 �Beatrice: So that's been a change, and it's been more and more people are coming. We've had much bigger crowds than we used to have. So I've seen attendance increase, I've seen engagement and conversation increase. And now more people are coming, there's someone else who wants to convert. I don't know how often she's studying with Rabbi, I met her one time. So I've seen that. We got the parking lot resurfaced, and so now we're turning our attention more to the interior look of the place. I don't think we'll be making any major changes, but that's kind of good 'cause that's what I'm interested in. Interviewer: Yeah, so what are your best and your worst memories from the time you've spent here? Beatrice: There's so many bests. Gosh, I don't know what to pick. I guess I would say that actually one day I studied with the Rabbi for five hours. And if we had stopped and gotten something to eat and drink, I probably could have gone another five. That was exceptional. To find a time that he and I both had that much undivided time. And typically what we do, is first we just have a general discussion, 'cause he always wants to talk about politics or whatever. So we do all the niceties, and then we would maybe answer my questions. Like he'd say, "Well let's do this." And I'd go, no I want you to answer me these questions, and then I want you to start asking me questions. And then he'd always want to finish up with a Hebrew lesson. I'm like so exhausted by that time. It's like God. So we'd go through another lesson, and I was like so tired I couldn't' even think. Beatrice: So those have been the best, I think is my time with the Rabbi. Because that's when the serious talk happens. You know, what do I want to learn? What am I learning? And how do I feel about things? The worst would be occasionally I felt that, and probably more at the beginning, like I didn't belong. I felt very hampered by my lack of Hebrew School, like a lot of these people went to Hebrew School as a child, even if their family wasn't ritually observant, they did get that exposure, so very used to the language. And I forget, you know Rabbi has a Master's degree in the Hebrew Language from the University in Israel. So, you know, for him and his wife, 'cause she's very good at Hebrew, and Marsha, the linguist, our linguist, a Master's degree in Linguistics. It's like holy cow. Beatrice: So I just felt stupid, like I wasn't really ... But I haven't felt that way in a long time, like a year. So it's been just the first year and a half, I was lurching towards Judaism like Frankenstein. Me, me want to be Jew. You know, so now it's a little bit better. Interviewer: So how would you describe the values of this temple? Beatrice: The first value is to not hurt other people's feelings. And that's hard for me, because I'm open and honest, and honestly I don't care if somebody tells me something that might hurt my feelings. I always tell people, "Hit me on the head with a two by four, I'm pretty dense." Sometimes things just shoot over my head, but I notice they have an extraordinary concern about the feelings of other people. I've never met any group of people like that in my whole life. I 9 �mean I'm used to the operating room, where there's rules, and there's procedures, and yet there's that responsibility. Like if you see something wrong, to take immediate action. So it's very hard for me to hold back and not blurt things out or take immediate action. They're training me to think differently. Like, what is this person going to feel like when they hear this? Or when you do that? So that's really big. Yeah, that's the big value here. That would be the biggest one. And the other is personal concern. Honestly, outside of my natural born family, this is my family now. I feel like people truly care. And in Judaism, when you do good acts it's called a Mitzvah. There's also commandments, things we are told to do to make ourselves holy for God. Isn't that cool? I love that phrase. So we can be holy for God. I never thought that. So that to me, is what my whole life is about now. What things can I do to be holy for God? And that is the kind of stewards, other people, like visiting the sick, and we can't always tell of the good things we do, or else it gets blotted out. So I won't tell you everything I do. I need to do more, want to do more. Interviewer: That's cool. So what keeps you a member of this temple? Beatrice: The feeling of belonging, the social life that occurs here, and the religious life, it's all one, and the same to me. I live in a rural area, on 44 acres. I can go out in my field at night and do a 360 and not see a single light. I belong to gun club, so I'm very comfortable in that male oriented atmosphere. Out where I live, people still fly confederate flags. And they won't go to a certain gas station 'cause it's run by Arabs. They're not Arabs, they're from Punjab, India, but those people won't talk to them. So I don't really fit in out there. And I really want to move into town. I'd rather move where my sisters live, but I've even considered starting a Chavurah group, which is Jews who meet with no Rabbi. They just meet in each other’s homes, say once a week, to celebrate Jewish Holidays and services, and share food and songs. It would be for people who live out in the boonies. You know, are too far to drive to a synagogue. Interviewer: Right. Beatrice: So maybe that would be for the future if I have to stay here. But I told my husband I'm getting older, by age 75 I want out of there. I don't want to live out there. So, I don't know what's going to happen then. My sister said, "Just come to California, and when he misses you enough, he'll come out." Interviewer: That is one way to do it. Beatrice: Yes. Interviewer: So, last question. How do you envision the future of B'nai Israel? Beatrice: I think it's going to revive. People that used to be members here are moving back to town. There's two or three people I think in the last six months that now took jobs here, and so they've started to come to some events. I noticed they're 10 �not coming every Saturday, but we never know who's going to show up, which is kind of exciting, 'cause you never know who you're going to meet. And I think the area's growing. The Fremont area attracts a lot of educated people. We do have Jews that live and work there, but I don't think they're affiliated. Beatrice: I worked with them and that was another resource before I actually started coming here. I seem to have some kind of radar that, like one day my supervisor, and supervisor from another area walked by my desk, and I called out, "Happy Hanukkah Marian." And they didn't say anything. They just looked at me, and later Cheryl came back, and she said, "How did you know Marian was a Jew?" I said, "I didn't." There was just something ... Beatrice: So then I started noticing this one gal wore the Star of David, so I tried to chat her up. She didn't want nothing to do with me. She's like you're real off-put ... But she's the one that finally gave me, 'cause I finally went to her and said, "Look, I've been studying for over a year, can you give me the name of somebody, I want to get going." Oh yeah, but they're not looking for converts. We have no website, that would be the biggest change if we could ever get a website. 'Cause we have no presence in the community, 'cause people don't know we're here. We don't run any big events. We don't host anything. We don't have a website, where the other temples, they all have websites in Grand Rapids. So I think that's a concern, bet we don't have any like webmaster ready type people here. And I don't think we could really build one from Wicks, you know build a site from start. We'd have to pay a company to do it and we don't really have that in the budget at this time. Interviewer: Yeah. Beatrice: Yeah, so that's what I see would be a change. Otherwise, if it doesn't grow, and if we don't get more with the times, I could see that we would give up the building, and rent space from a Christian Congregation. 'Cause they wouldn't be using it Friday night and Saturday, unless they were having something special. 'Cause I know that happens in other cities and towns all across the United States. They share the space, 'cause it's not the building. Beatrice: That's the thing about Judaism, it's a home based religion. It's your Torah at home. It's your family. It's the prayers you say at home and the rituals you observe there. That makes the Jewish home. The synagogue is great, but it's not the whole religion. So, it doesn't matter to me, I'm not as attached like it said on your paper, how do you rate? Like I rated Judaism higher than B'nai, because this building is just a building. I mean I feel comfortable here, now that I've been everywhere in it, and I've had a lot of good experiences here. But, we can go anywhere. 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1c7a834a42454bc8fb50f8ffea83c46.mp3 edded1726d5c1c71d0cf9293c2cd5b6b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Temple B'nai Israel Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Temple B'nai Israel (Muskegon, Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital objects were contributed by Temple B'nai Israel as part of the L'dor V'dor project. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Jews--United States Muskegon (Mich.) Scrapbooks Synagogues Women--Societies and clubs Minutes (Records) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Preston, Marilyn Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource L'dor V'dor (project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Text Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Circa 1920s-2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-08_KoolovitzB_20181117 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koolovitz, Beatrice Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-17 Title A name given to the resource Beatie Koolovitz (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Beatrice (Beatie) Koolovitz was born in Detroit, the oldest of five children in a Catholic family. After being introduced to other aspects of Christianity and religious history as an undergraduate at Western Michigan University, she continued her spiritual path and eventually converted to Judaism. In this interview, Beatrice discusses her personal history and conversion, as well as her memories of B'nai Israel and the Muskegon Jewish community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ymker, Chavala (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Jews--United States--Personal narratives Muskegon (Mich.) Oral history Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Recorded for the L'dor V'dor project. Relation A related resource L'dor V'dor (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d409b1ab3fba5e84c0ef25ae06475fb.pdf c210406dbc774b37251481499e778030 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Wayne Kooy Cold War Era 8 minutes 16 seconds (00:00:05) -Born April 26th, 1932. -Served in the US Army attaining the highest rank of E2. -Born in Lansing, Illinois in their home. -Family of 5 siblings, one girl and four boys. -Worked for nine months an electrical engineer before the military. -Drafted in March of 1955. -Took basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. -Nicknamed Fort Lost in the Woods, Misery. -Due to being deferred to complete college, he was slightly older entering the service. -Older by about four years. -Worked with the S & P. -Took a basic electrical engineering class in Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. -“Very basic” a “simple review” due to his experience. -At Fort Monmouth he attended class for the summer. -Next he was sent to White Sands in New Mexico. -Worked in the meteorological division to make devices to measure weather. (3:30) -Example of one device: created to measure the phase-shift. -Resided at White Sands for 18 months. -The military did not suit him. -Disliked the lack of choice and independence. -Had one pay dispute with his authorities. -Did not have any trouble returning to civilian life. -Returned to the job he had prior. -A few friends from the military are still in touch. -Would not say that he enjoyed the military, but didn’t find it distasteful. -The experience was somewhat useful in life. -Discipline was a worthwhile characteristic. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KooyW1831V Title A name given to the resource Kooy, Wayne John (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-26 Description An account of the resource Wayne Kooy was born in Lansing, Illinois on April 26th, 1932. He was drafted in March of 1955 and had basic training in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. In the Army he used his electrical engineering skills to craft and maintain meteorological devices in White Sands, New Mexico. With his time in the military he achieved the rank of E2 at his highest ranking. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kooy, Wayne John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kooy, Brendon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1581814a0c99c679db02245dcc9ca78.mp4 0dc8b8725ff44d0986165aa7aec461d2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a99e81c2b1f62fb2092382ec2c024c5b.pdf 7998fe448d55827fbf91968b3247ed95 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview PTSD Awareness and Veteran’s Programs Catherine Kooyers 1:17:05 Introduction (00:20)              Catherine was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She comes from a family of military veterans, with her father and uncles having served in World War II and cousins that were in Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm. After she married, she moved to Toledo, Ohio and that is where she learned about the need to help veterans. Her main focus was PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). She remembers when she was sixteen years old the boy across the street was killed in Vietnam. While in Toledo, a woman Catherine met had a son that was a POW/MIA, and she helped with raising awareness. (02:45) Catherine graduated from high school in 1969 at Forest Hills. She attended several different colleges: Stotsenberg University in Toledo and she took courses in writing and business at the University of Toledo. (04:23) She did not go to college right after high school; she worked as a telephone operator at Bell Telephone, and then moved up to the motor vehicle department. Catherine was mentored by Dick DeVos when she was younger. (06:10) She was not paying as much attention to Vietnam as she should have. The 70‟s were a time of partying and having fun. (08:00) People distanced themselves from the veterans when they came home. One group that came home would always wear their uniforms and carry guns and knives. This group was also very vocal and intimidating, which caused most people to fear them. While at a county fair, she met some members from this group and Catherine learned about them and who they were. The person that motivated her the most was a POW who had an injured leg and could not be seen for six months. (10:30) Catherine called the VA clinic and tried to appeal for the veteran. This sparked her interest and caused the situation to snowball and she began to fight for their rights. Working for Veterans (12:00)    Catherine began working with this veterans group and showed them how to set up a rolodex, print out a newsletter and start to get organized. Several veterans groups started at this time, but the Vietnam Veterans of America was the only real survivor of these groups and they took the lead. One veteran, Mike Flowers, was instrumental in the making of VVA. He would travel to Washington D.C. at his own expense to discuss veteran‟s rights and the organization. (14:00) �          PTSD was the main cause they focused on. Between 1978 -1979 the need for PTSD treatment came to light. Catherine‟s group formed a PTSD committee, but she was not allowed to act as chair because she was not a veteran, so she was made an honorary co-chair. They began collecting and distributing information about PTSD treatment and received more calls for help than anything. (16:46) At the time, each veterans outreach center had a specialty such as drugs, suicide and finding jobs. No one was addressing PTSD. They decided to open a veteran‟s outreach center in Toledo that focused on PTSD. Catherine also began to learn more about what PTSD was and how it could be treated. As she reached out to the medical community of psychologists, they simply told them to “send your guys to us”. (18:30) They began to create and distribute PTSD monthly newsletters. The next year at the Lucas County Fair, they had a brochure they handed out that talked about PTSD as they had learned about it and how they perceived it to be. Catherine noted a difference between shell shock and PTSD the former being more combat and battle related while the latter is the result from a traumatic event, not necessarily war or combat related. (20:15) Moving Forward – National Recognition (22:06)         VVA chapter 35 was the original committee that helped boost the PTSD awareness campaign. In 1982, the government decided to expand the program for two years. Once that time had expired in 1984, they were allowed to present testimony to Congress. While there, Catherine was able to meet Sonny Montgomery, the creator of the Montgomery G.I. Bill. When they were presenting to the VA and to Congress, they learned quickly not to disclose their sources because those were often times closed after wards. (24:55) At a meeting at the VA, each veterans group (i.e. VFW, American Legion, Disabled American Veterans, etc…) did not get along. It was at this meeting that Mike Flowers stood up and said “If we don‟t start working together as veterans, it is going to be the downfall of all of us.” That day they formed what Catherine calls the first „Veterans Coalition‟. (26:36) They also began promoting job fairs, in order to clean up their image, find a job, have a successful interview and drug counseling. 1984-1985 was the year of the big push for veteran‟s rights, and things really started to take off then. (28:43) With the anniversary of the fall of Saigon, in 1985, public support steadily rose and more awareness also grew. Around that time Catherine helped bring the mother of a soldier killed in Vietnam to the memorial wall in Washington D.C. Everything was donated for her to go including a new dress and the plane tickets. When they arrived, a television camera crew showed up to film and take pictures of her there, but the park rangers told them no shooting was allowed. They did it anyway and the pictures were used to close out the broadcast day. (32:27) �Looking Back Over the Past Forty Years (33:29)            A lot has happened that was good for veterans, but much more is still needed. The veterans outreach center that Catherine had been fighting for since 1984 in Toledo was finally built in 2008. (34:04) One veteran she met at the wall was cracking jokes and was very nervous. She could tell that he didn‟t think it was funny, it was nervous laughter. He was a Vietnam veteran whose wife wanted him to see it. After talking with him, he told her that he wasn‟t prepared for that, and he started to cry. (36:50) He related his story to Catherine, and he lost 38 soldiers in Vietnam and he was the only survivor from his unit. Even though she cares about veterans, the program needs veterans to be involved as well for it to work. (38:20) Today, some veterans either deny they have PTSD or are unaware of the fact that they may have a problem. (43:30) Each case is very different and personal. One thing that Catherine can do for veterans is to help them take care of things like beginning college and doing everyday things that they may need help with. (47:20) There is a difference between World War II vets and others, when asked they will just say they did what they had to do. They also live more frugal lives and save and go without because of their memories from the Depression. (49:20) The Korean Veterans that Catherine encounters feel like they were forgotten; stuck between the heroes of WWII and the vocal veterans from Vietnam. Patriot Guard, which is present at fellow veteran‟s funerals, helps to reach the veterans that seem unreachable because it is something that they can connect too. (51:31) Veterans’ Divisions (55:06)         Vietnam veterans are very diverse: Whites, Blacks, Native Americans and Asians. Each of these groups stayed away from each other for a long time. They don‟t know how they fit together, but Catherine has told them that they each had a similar experience and that they should get along. (57:08) Once at one of these meetings, the group was fighting and she made the mistake to try to stop it. She ended up being shoved against the wall with scissors held to her throat. Education is the key, we need to inform the public and teach our children about veterans and the struggles they went through. (59:50) Most of the people getting involved are the children and grandchildren of veterans who want to learn about their experiences and how they can help them. (1:01:24) A large amount of the veterans coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan listen to older veterans, because they know in their mind something is not right. Some have survivor‟s guilt because they made it home while others did not. (1:04:30) Cross guilt also exists in veterans who did not go into combat because they feel that they didn‟t do as much. Getting veterans to events like Landing Zone Michigan and veterans functions at Grand Valley State University is a huge step in reaching them. (1:06:42) �       Computers have made a big impact on information and being better educated. These resources have helped veterans connect to others and become affiliated with veteran‟s organizations. (1:08:20) One concern that Catherine has is the suicide rate amongst veterans. The rate is not measured by day, but by minute. (1:10:20) She used to work on suicide watches that would rush out to veterans that were thinking about suicide and would talk them out of it. Education is the best way to deal with these issues. Legislation also needs to be pursued to make sure that veterans are represented and spoken for. (1:12:30) Cleaning themselves up and maintaining a healthy, reputable image to make them more respected. Catherine‟s historical timeline of veterans history is the 60‟s when everybody was torn apart, the 70‟s was a time when things were happening but we weren‟t sure what, the 80‟s were the critical turning point, where Congress became involved and the VA starting looking forward. (1:15:37) She thinks that the Vietnam Veterans of America really stand out because they were the ones that really started the movements that Catherine has worked so hard for over these years. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KooyersC1432V Title A name given to the resource Kooyers, Catherine (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kooyers, Catherine Description An account of the resource Catherine Kooyers was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan and comes from a family of veterans. After she got married, she was working at a local fair when she first encountered Vietnam veterans. From her experiences, Catherine quickly realized that work needed to be done in veteran organizations and that work needed to be done in the field of PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). Catherine was part of a PTSD committee that formed and fought for the VA (Veterans Affairs) to provide services to veterans that they had not previously received. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-02 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/24ac16db7d36d40da24a319c22046a5e.m4v 7bd82c8340aa9b6ace9b70961af408f2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc31ab1ce2f1978f298f636aae02e04f.pdf f11522a11291585b4fab1b3e4f32e868 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Harry Kooyman Cold War/Vietnam War 55 minutes 43 seconds (00:00:38) Early Life -Born in the Netherlands in 1944 -Known as the “Starving Times” because of the Second World War -Mother couldn't produce enough milk to feed him -She used milk from a cow with Hoof-and-Mouth Disease -This resulted in Harry getting very sick and nearly dying -Born in a village near Rotterdam -Family moved to the United States when he was four years old -Started out in New Jersey then moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan in the early 1950s -Started on a farm in New Jersey then father became a day laborer in Grand Rapids -Father found work with Reliable Cartage in 1953 -Trucking company that serviced A&P Grocery Stores -Mother's uncle lived in Grand Rapids -One of the relatives that sponsored them when they were working on citizenship -Convinced them to move from New Jersey to Grand Rapids -Attended Mayfield Christian School -Went to Grand Rapids Christian High School -The church provided his family with a scholarship -Church wanted children sent to Christian schools (00:03:57) Enlisting in the Navy -Went to an Air Force recruiter in Grand Rapids and said that he wanted to be a pilot -Told that he did not have the requirements to be a pilot in the Air Force -Went to the Navy recruiter and asked if he could enlist to become a pilot -Recruiter said he could -Enlisted in the Navy in 1962 -He was 17 years old, so he needed his parents' approval -They supported him (00:05:28) Cold War -Kept track of major Cold War events in the 1950s and early 1960s -There was still a lot of positivity and optimism in the country in the early 1960s -Remembers when John Glenn became the first American to orbit the Earth in February 1962 (00:05:49) Basic Training -Sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training -Reported for training on June 27, 1962 -Completed his basic training in September 1962 -Basic training lasted about 10 weeks -Went from Grand Rapids, to Detroit, to Chicago -Remembers being greeted by a drill instructor screaming at him and the other recruits -Told his serial number and ordered to never forget it -As of 2016 he can still remember it -The first few days of basic training consisted of getting uniforms and information about the Navy -Took literacy and physical exams at Fort Wayne, Michigan before going to Great Lakes Naval Station �-Took an aptitude test at Great Lakes Naval Station and was asked what he wanted to do -He said he wanted to be a pilot, so he was placed in Naval Aviation -Told he would be an aviation electronics technician -Large part of basic training was learning how to think as a part of a unit -If you made a mistake, then you and your unit were punished -Had to psychologically adjust to life in the Navy -Had personal and barracks inspections almost every day -Trained by career officers -One of the trainers was a World War II veteran -He was a good man -Received a lot of physical training -Went in skinny and came out of basic training with 20 pounds of muscle -Mornings consisted of classroom instruction -Afternoons consisted of physical training -Two thirds of the original recruits were washed out or recycled -One recruit was discharged because his father died -A few men tried to commit suicide and were discharged -Some men couldn't pass the written tests or the physical exams and had to start over (00�:12:02) Electronics Training Pt. 1 -Given two weeks of leave after basic training -Sent to Memphis, Tennessee for advanced training -September 1962 to March 1963 -Eight hours of electronics training every day in Memphis -Started off with the basics of electronics and then worked up to complex electronics -Designated as an Aviation Electronics Technician Airman -From Memphis he was sent to Naval Air Station Glynco, Georgia for specialized training (00:13:30) Cuban Missile Crisis -Remembers the Cuban Missile Crisis in October 1962 -Told to be aware of what was going on -Woke up one morning and saw soldiers sleeping on the floor of the barracks -Never saw so many aircraft in his entire life -Convinced that the United States and the Soviet Union were going to war (00:15:15) Electronics Training Pt. 2 -First part of electronics training in Tennessee was learning about electronics in general -One month before leaving Memphis he volunteered for flight duty -Only one of ten men selected -Sent to Naval Air Station Glynco for specialized training -Worked with classified electronics equipment used in radar planes -Part of Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) (00:16:30) Civil Rights Movement -There was a lot of Civil Rights activity in the south -He had never had any problem with black people -Saw a segregated bathroom and a segregated water fountain in Tennessee - “Colored” water fountain was filthy and not taken care of by the city -Told to stay out of Civil Rights politics -KKK tried to come onto the base in Memphis -Got up to the guard towers and turned back without incident -Brunswick, Georgia (near NAS Glynco) was very segregated -Befriended a black technician in training �-He couldn't go to movies or restaurants with Harry due to the race laws (00:19:23) Electronics Training Pt. 3 -Completed training in Georgia in June 1963 -Worked in a module on the ground at NAS Glynco -Exact replication of the type of aircraft he would be working in -Could not take study material out of the module -Worked with radar equipment and electronic countermeasures -Learned how to collect radar information from enemy planes and resist electronic attacks (00:20:51) Stationed in Hawaii Pt. 1 -Sent to Naval Station Treasure Island, California -Transfer station to receive orders -Flown to Naval Air Station Barbers Point, Hawaii -Near Pearl Harbor -Rural area surrounded by sugar cane fields -There were 2,500 men in his squadron -Largest squadron in the Navy -There were patrol, antisubmarine, utility, and helicopter squadrons at the base -Deployed once a month for two weeks per month to go on patrols over the eastern part of the Pacific -Flew from Midway to the Aleutian Islands and then return to Midway -Flights lasted 14 to 16 hours to fly from Midway to the Aleutians -He worked in the Combat Information Center (CIC) as an Electronic Countermeasure operator -Did everything but fly the plane -Had a lounge area and an eating area on the plane -Flew in a Lockheed L-1049 Super Constellation -Four engine, turboprop aircraft -Went on to flying in the Boeing 707 -There were 20 to 30 men on the plane -Had two crews, and they switched every four hours -Stationed in Hawaii for two years (00:24:08) Downtime in Hawaii -Had two days off after each deployment -Had three days off before each deployment -Visited Honolulu and Waikiki Beach to meet girls -Played a lot of cards during downtime -Relaxed atmosphere and not too many people in the 1960s -Sometimes the military personnel were seen as intruders by the Hawaiians -Teenagers were the most antagonistic -Former military personnel were positive toward servicemen -Locals wanted the servicemen to spend money (00:26:45) Stationed on Midway -Not much to do at Midway when they weren't flying out of the island -A lot of birds at Midway -Flew into aircraft when they took off or landed -Post-flight and pre-flight took three hours -Spent most time on Midway sleeping -Had a movie theater, bowling alleys, and a basic TV station -There were military families on Midway -There was a high school �-Servicemen played sports games against the students -Housing on Midway was very clustered -He lived in barracks close to the airstrip -Went swimming (00:29:08) Aleutian Islands -If they had engine troubles or deliveries to make they stopped on Adak or Kodiak -Always landed during the winter -Windy, cold, and much more intense than Michigan winters -Had to refuel the plane once on the Aleutian Islands -Even in winter weather gear he felt the wind cutting through his clothing (00:30:15) Stationed in Hawaii Pt. 2 -Arrived at Hawaii in June 1963 and left in March or April 1965 -Squadron was decommissioned (00:30:38) Vietnam War -The Tonkin Gulf Incident happened in the fall of 1964 -Had to stay on the base when it happened -Thought they were going to be sent to Vietnam -Incident deescalated -After a while they were allowed off the base for four hours -And a little while later they were allowed off the base for 24 hours (00:31:40) Assassination of President Kennedy -At Hawaii when President Kennedy got assassinated -Took off at 9 AM Hawaii time on November 22, 1963 -Came back later in the day and nobody greeted them on the runway or answered the radio -He got off the aircraft and brought a ladder up to the aircraft -Walked into the barracks and nobody was there -Went into the TV room and everyone was there -Told that President Kennedy had been assassinated -He was shocked -Traumatized the whole country -Memorial services held at the chapel at NAS Barbers Point -Chapel filled up for every memorial service (00:34:20) Encounters with Soviet Aircraft -Noticed Soviet “Bears” (Tupolev Tu-95, strategic bomber) in American airspace -They were checking American reaction time -If they saw a Soviet plane they relayed their finding to NORAD -NORAD contacted fighter squadrons in Alaska to go and scare off the Soviet bomber -US government didn't want any more surprise attacks after Pearl Harbor -His squadron provided radar coverage of the majority of the Pacific Ocean (00:36:10) Stationed on the USS Bennington (CVS-20) -Asked where he would like to be stationed for the last six months of his service -His preferences were not taken into consideration -Placed on a ship headed for Vietnam -Allowed to visit home in March (or April) 1965 before reporting for duty -Shocked to be back in cold weather -Spent one or two weeks at home -Visited his parents and his future wife (girlfriend at the time) -Knew Vietnam War was escalating -Viet Cong and North Vietnamese were getting more aggressive �-Assigned to the USS Bennington (CVS-20), an aircraft carrier -Antisubmarine squadrons on board -Boarded the ship in June 1965 -Joined the ship at Pearl Harbor -Assigned to VS-38, an antisubmarine squadron -Flew the S2E -Twin-engined and effective aircraft -Went on the WESTPAC Exercise -Sailed to Yokosuka, Japan then to the Philippines then to Bangkok, Thailand -Made very few flights as the plane captain -In charge of the entire aircraft -Had to make sure repairs were made and everything on the plane worked -S2E carried two pilots and two technicians -Had some experience with observation work -Flew night missions that lasted four hours -Flew search and rescue patterns over the Mekong Delta and the Vietnamese coast -Took pictures of boats in the Mekong Delta and off the Vietnamese coast -Viet Cong were using sampans and small boats to offload supplies from trawlers -Flew very low and fast -Did visual observation -Radar didn't work with wood boats like sampans -Had to avoid getting shot at -Never got shot at to his knowledge -Never saw any muzzle flashes (00:43:23) End of Service & Coming Home -Left the USS Bennington in August 1965 -Ship resupplied in Yokosuka, Japan and that's where he left it -Wanted to go to college and was allowed to leave early because of this -Given two hours notice that he could get off the ship and go home -Stopped at Naval Station Treasure Island, California -Not a lot of encouragement to reenlist -Released from service just before Secretary of Defense McNamara extended everyone's service -Worked in an office at Treasure Island before being discharged -Had to find sailors with “bad time” (spent time in the brig) and extend their service -Families were waiting for their servicemen -Watched as they received their extensions and were deployed to Vietnam -Probably the worst day of his life -Discharged so he could attend college at Grand Rapids Junior College (now Community College) (00:47:09) Life after Service -There was not a lot of antiwar activity in Grand Rapids -Remembers blood drives being held at Grand Rapids Junior College for the troops in Vietnam -Transferred to Western Michigan University -More antiwar activity there -Stayed quiet about being a veteran -Married by the time he got to WMU and lived in married housing -He and his wife befriended another veteran and his wife and spent most time with them -Started with a major in Drafting Technology -GI Bill went into effect, so he decided to go to college for four years instead of two -Changed his major to Industrial Education �-Taught for Grand Rapids Public Schools for 20 years -Taught at Grand Rapids Community College and at Jordan College as an adjunct professor (00:49:15) Progress of Vietnam War -Followed the news on the Vietnam War -Friend from middle school/high school was killed in action in Vietnam -One or two month(s) after Harry got out of the Navy -Brother-in-law enlisted in the military in June 1967 -Watched everything that happened in Vietnam (00:50:07) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -He wasn't a good student in high school -Navy taught him that he had to be a good student -Learned how to study -Got the second highest exam score on his final electronics exam -Lonely time in the Navy -Being in the Navy prompted him to reconnect with his high school girlfriend -Led to them dating and eventually getting married in November 1966 (00:52:49) Contact with Home -Wrote his girlfriend the entire time he was in the Navy -There was a two week delay in getting letters when he was in the Navy -Had to pick up letters at Midway or at Hawaii -Called collect to phone home -Cost $1 per minute to call his family or his girlfriend (00:53:53) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -Learned about how different people live -Appreciation for different individuals -Made friends in the Navy that he is still friends with -People he would die for, and he knows they would die for him -Completely different mindset than being a civilian -A lot of civilians, especially now, don't understand the military mindset � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KooymanH1897V Title A name given to the resource Kooyman, Harry (Interview outline and video), 2012 Description An account of the resource Harry Kooyman was born in the Netherlands in 1944 and his family moved to the United States when he was four years old. He grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan and after high school he enlisted in the Navy in 1962. He received basic training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois and naval aviation electronics training in Memphis, Tennessee and Naval Air Station Glynco, Georgia. He was assigned to a patrol squadron at Naval Air Station Barber Point, Hawaii from June 1963 to March/April 1965 where he flew patrols from Midway to the Aleutian Islands in search of Soviet aircraft. In April 1965 he was assigned to the USS Bennington (CVS-20) and served with VS-38 an antisubmarine patrol squadron. He flew observation missions over the Mekong Delta and along the Vietnamese coast until he was discharged from the Navy in August 1965. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kooyman, Harry Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4082562b74fda8c6e7fa1ca29763d9a0.jpg 598a7334d61e7507b39042d3b309f9bf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000714 Title A name given to the resource Seidman House exterior Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Korab, Balthazar Description An account of the resource Exterior of Seidman House Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bce290d8c4ec2bf284ce3278534c09fc.jpg 1f63b303f20eb2717e45a4e422d08387 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley Ravines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Krohmer, Stanley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Institutional Marketing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Grand River (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Land use Nature trails Outdoor recreation Architectural rendering Facilities Maps Photographs Publications Description An account of the resource Collection of digitized photographs, graphic materials, and documents related to the physical environment and history of the ravines on GVSU’s Allendale Campus. The items curated for this collection were digitized from the Grand Valley Ravines Natural Area collection and the Stanley Krohmer Photographs collection, in addition to other materials from University Archives that illustrate the significance of this natural feature to the GVSU campus community. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000715 Title A name given to the resource Seidman House. Looking at Lake Michigan Hall Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Korab, Balthazar Description An account of the resource Lake Michigan Hall from Seidman House windows. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d774f9e027d9bd352e27c1d415f4767.jpg fcdecca378d719e9c26b223867adb180 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000716 Title A name given to the resource Lake Superior Hall. Viewed from exterior of Seidman House Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Korab, Balthazar Description An account of the resource Lake Superior Hall viewed from exterior of Seidman House. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/36f12f5016a5e8d3b8d1d1b0951e08b6.jpg 11ad518db1bafbf5c6f968d8d29679ea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000717 Title A name given to the resource Seidman House. Student lounge firepit area Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Korab, Balthazar Description An account of the resource Seidman House student lounge firepit area. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cd00a23961e44697ad37cc93acffc51a.jpg f3b5cf2372cd7a765309062585313e56 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000718 Title A name given to the resource Lake Superior Hall from Lake Michigan Hall Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Korab, Balthazar Description An account of the resource Lake Superior Hall from Lake Michigan Hall windows. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a1d4b0d0bc630445145fbb27c94d63d0.jpg 2b18c6f1376c52f5afdf7c156a9f34c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000719 Title A name given to the resource Seidman House. Student lounge Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Korab, Balthazar Description An account of the resource Seidman House student lounge with fixed seating. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Grand Valley State College Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9021a04ec1ec2c1bcf81cb8165f71d6c.mp4 eb4057df76ce50dc047b0e323c3a4eb7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f295b995b9051fe61575462a6bd8fa88.pdf 99983daec1f4b19dab3a9407a5f96dd6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Duane Koshork (43:12) (00:08) Background Information • • • • Duane was born in Wisconsin in 1925 His family moved to Chicago, IL when he was a baby Duane’s father was a machinist He enlisted in the Army Air Corps (02:35) Training • • • • • • • Duane did basic training at Jefferson Parish, Missouri in 1943 He signed up to be a cadet but was denied because of high blood pressure Duane was assigned to be a sheet metal worker He went to San Antonio, TX to do fundamental sheet metal training After that he was sent to Akron, OH for supplemental training on fuel cell repair Basic training lasted 3 months; he was in Texas for 6 months and Ohio for 1 month Duane was sent to Riverside, CA for deployment (07:18) Deployment • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • They loaded onto a troopship and crossed the Pacific Ocean in 30 days Along the way they stopped once for a day in Melbourne, Australia The ship landed at Bombay, India There were 10,000 troops on the ship and they sailed alone Duane’s first day on the ship he did kp duty, but was too sea sick to do it the rest of the time At Bombay they boarded a train and went across India for a week He was stationed outside of Calcutta, India so he would go there on his days off The people of Calcutta were nice They stayed outside of Calcutta for about a month They loaded all of the trucks onto a train and headed to Ledo Road, which was connected to the Burma Road Duane was a rider in the truck and had to do kp and guard duty His unit was divided into 3 convoys and they would stop to camps at night to sleep They went through the jungle and didn’t see anything but a tea plantation Their destination was Kunming, China and it took them about a month to travel 1,079 miles The convoys hauled gas for planes �• One night they heard shooting and found out it was American GIs shooting to celebrate VE Day • On the trip they saw the aftermath of an air drop bombing (21:48) Kung Ming and Shanghai • • • • • • • • • • They reached Kunming and were put into barracks Kunming’s population was about 500,000 at the time Duane was put into a radiator repair shop and fixed C-46, C-47, P-40, and P-51 planes The living arrangements were nice There were USO plays and movies He spent almost a year in Kunming Duane visited the Western Hills Temple on leave When they heard about the atom bombs being dropped, they didn’t believe it at first and then they were glad that the war was ending Duane was moved to Shanghai and was assigned to be a MP from December until April, 1946 They could go into Shanghai and go to the race track to play golf or ride horses (31:48) Discharge • • • • • • • • There were less people on the way home and it took less time The ship landed in San Francisco and they unloaded Duane was discharged in May, 1946 He stayed with his parents for a while and then got married Duane went to Northern Illinois State Teachers College for 3 years He then went to Michigan State University for a masters degree in therapeutic recreation In 1989 he retired Now that he is retired he reads, plays golf, travels, and attends WWII reunions (37:25) Old Memories • • • On one of his first nights in India he went on guard duty and saw eyes coming from the jungle, when he yelled halt he found out it was civilians going back to their villages with lights on sticks for seeing snakes A friend of his went to the latrine at night and they heard him yell so they went to check on him, they found him frozen with fear because there was a giant python above him Another night when he was going on guard duty he heard a noise in the kitchen and asked the guard who was getting off duty what it was; the guard said it was a gorilla, so they went to check on it and it was a spider monkey banging pots together �DUANE W. KOSHORK. was born on May 6. 1925 at Pardeeville. WI. His family resided in Chi­ cago. IL where he at­ tended South Shore High School. He enlisted in the U.S. Army Air Corps in 1943. received basic training at Jefferson Bar­ racks. MO and ground crew training at Chanute Field. IL and Kelly Field. TX . Koshork was a mem­ ber of the 69th Depot Repair Sqdn, of the 30 Ist Air Depot Group assigned to the China Theater. He was based in Kunming. China after traveling across India and the Ledo-Burma Road . In 1945 he was transferred to Shanghai where he served in the mili­ tary police. Upon discharge in 1946. he attended Northern lllinois University. receiving a &emf} $4pIIl. degree in education. followed by an MA degree from Michi­ gan State University. During this period he married Gloria and they have three children: Barbara. David and Lori. Koshork was employed by the Veterans Admin­ istration as a corrective therapist; was State Director of Day Treatment Centers for the severely mentally handicapped; served as adjunctive therapy director and held administrative and executive positions with the Michigan Dept. of Mental Health. He retired in 1989. and he and Gloria reside in Grand Haven. MI. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KoshorkD Title A name given to the resource Koshork, Duane (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koshork, Duane Description An account of the resource Duane Koshork was born in Wisconsin in 1925 and grew up in Chicago, Illinois. He enlisted in the Army Air Corps in 1943 and did sheet metal training. After about 10 months of training in the US Duane went to Bombay, India on a troopship and then travelled by train across India. They got to Calcutta, India and loaded their trucks on to a train. Then they unloaded their trucks and hauled plane fuel from the Ledo Road to the Burma Road. Duane ended up in Kung Ming, China where he worked at a radiator repair shop on an airbase until the war was over. He was then sent to Shanghai to be a MP and sent home in April, 1946 to be discharged. Newspaper clipping about Koshork is appended to interview outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCauslin, Kelly (Interviewer) Spring Lake District Library (Spring Lake, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Air Force World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-11-28 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9cfbda3aab441a94659ff2a0baba46f4.m4v 64fc47310662c650a85ed6140eb16a01 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ccecabe8fbead858b809e7ab0c69206d.pdf bb90889f957a9a363a63b1e104840ac2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Lawrence Koster Length of interview: (54:58) (00:37) Early Life       Lawrence (Larry) was born on May 13, 1935 in Grand Rapids Michigan His father was an auto mechanic and his mother was a housekeeper o Lawrence had an older brother and a younger sister o Three of his uncles served in World War Two; two served in Europe and one served in the far east He remembers that most goods were rationed during the war. He graduated high school in June 1953 o Though the Korean war was going on, he didn’t think that he would be drafted After graduating, he went to Calvin College for two years and took math and science courses o One of the classes he took was a correspondence course. He learned about radio theory and television Larry couldn’t continue with this type of coursework at Calvin but he saw that he could do similar work in the military o He decided to enlist for three years; eleven months of his enlistment was going to consist of schooling (5:15) Military Life     Larry was able to select his job in the military as long as he could manage the work He reported for duty on April 26, 1956 o He traveled by train to Detroit and from there, they were taken to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri o There they were placed in a coal-heated barracks and issued army cloths. While they were at Leonard Wood, they had to complete tedious tasks such as leveling off large piles of rocks After three to four days, they were sent to Fort Hood, Texas for basic training o Fort Hood was located in a desolate area. Larry was placed in Company C (out of four training companies) (10:10) The training consisted of marching, learning how to follow rules, exercising, and firing weapons o Drill sergeants yelled at them frequently in order to keep the men in line. Some of the instructors were veterans of the Korean War o During the months he was training (May and June), Fort Hood was extremely hot. He had to opportunity to go off base but he wasn’t interested in leaving �        o Though he was assigned to the 4th Armored Division, he didn’t receive any armor training After eight weeks of training, Larry returned to Grand Rapids for a short leave (14:10) When his leave was up, he was sent to Fort Bliss, Texas for Air Defense School o He bunked in a large room with eight other men. The buildings were nice than the ones at Fort Hood The schooling began with basic math o The men taking the classes ranged from high school to college graduates. A lot of them had little knowledge of basic math so the first 12 weeks were spent on core skills o After the basic skills, he went on to complete an additional 30 weeks of schooling. This additional schooling was for learning the computer system of the Nike Ajax Missile o There were a series of tests that determined what sort of problems the system was having. Vacuum tubes caused the most problems. Although there were a lot of dust storms in the area, the equipment stayed relatively clean and secure from the weather The Nike Ajax was an air defense system o It had a radar that showed all aircraft in a particular area. An additional radar allowed the operators to lock on to a particular aircraft and follow its course. When the missile was fired, the radar would lock on to the target, allowing the missile to hit its mark (21:55) The schooling was more relaxed that basic training o Larry attended classes for 40 hours a week and when they transitioned to the Ajax System, his class time decreased o They didn’t go out to the range at all during the schooling. It was comparable to attending civilian college. He wrote a lot of letters to his girlfriend Nancy and exercised at the gym When he was sent home on leave for Christmas, Larry married his girlfriend Nancy o There were no accommodations for married couples on base so he rented a small house located several miles from Fort Bliss o Lawrence’s wife had worked as a secretary at an insurance company in Grand Rapids; this experience allowed he to land a job at Prudential Insurance Company in El Paso People in El Paso treated servicemen well Larry completed his training in June 1957 o A lot of the men were given the opportunity to go to different Ajax sites around the United States. he was given the chance to stay in El Paso, and he accepted o He was assigned to a radar park, which was a large field where a lot of the radar systems were located. There were three large vans (large trailers) where each type of radar was placed o They tracked aircraft flying near the El Paso Airport and Biggs Army Airfield but they weren’t working with live missiles �     (30:40) During this time, the Soviet Union was creating its own missile systems o When Sputnik was launched, Larry and his group was put on alert. There was speculation that the carrier part of the rocket would land in the south western part of the United States. Larry and several other men watched for several hours to see where it would land; however, they never saw it In the radar park, there were five or six men assigned to each radar set o The men worked in shifts. Every day, they went out and checked the equipment to make sure everything was functioning properly for each class that came in o The people he worked with were from various backgrounds and not all of them were college graduates He taught students how to maintain the Ajax system. He showed them how to run diagnostics and pinpoint particular issues On several occasions, he would cause issues to occur so that the students could learn how to fix them o This was often done by installing a bad vacuum tube. He sometimes exited the vans from a window and disconnected a wire outside. It took the students some time to figure out how to solve the problem (39:40) When his time was up, he was encouraged to reenlist but decided to finish college instead o A year after Larry was married, his wife gave birth to a baby girl o In April 1959, his time in the service was up. Three months before that, the army started to offer proficiency pay to those who qualified. Larry took a proficiency test and got the highest score in his battalion. This earned him an additional 30 dollars (42:20) Post-Army Life    After leaving the military, he accepted a job at IBM o He had to go to Kingston, New York for five months of training. The training was done on the Sage Computer, an air defense system built by IBM and operated by the air force. o IBM had a contract with the air force to maintain the system (some of the largest computers ever built). Larry worked for IBM for 36 years full-time o He worked in Syracuse for a year and worked on a large system that consisted of two computers working together for air defense o He eventually got into software programming and was able to code his own programs. o After his son was born, he transferred to Poughkeepsie, New York and worked in a lab. He also finished his degree in mathematics While he was working in the lab, he helped research new computer chip technologies In 1984, the software organization he was with moved to North Carolina o Larry worked in computer design and programming. In the late 1980s, several overseas companies started to make products with similar codes as IBM. He was involved in litigations work until his retirement from IBM in 1995 �o   In 1996, he continued to work three days a week at IBM In 2010, he and his wife moved to Michigan to be closer to their children Larry is grateful for his time in the military because he met a lot of good people and it allowed him to have a career at IBM � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KosterL1763V Title A name given to the resource Koster, Lawrence R (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-14 Description An account of the resource Lawrence Koster was born on May 13, 1935 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. After attending Calvin College for two year, he enlisted in the army with the idea that he would be allowed to finish his degree. Since his test scores were high, he was given special training to maintain the Nike Ajax Missile system. Once he completed his training, he was stationed in Fort Bliss, Texas where he trained recruits in the maintenance of the Ajax Missile System. He discusses the tensions between the United States and the Soviet Union during this time. When he left the military, Lawrence took advantage of his electronics experience and went to work for IBM. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koster, Lawrence R. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a498043ee4b6ef6f075ca9075f19afb3.mp4 3115c2663e480a6c5b9c877a3ae4475b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97b26097aa6649c22a20c9b0897c1f8f.pdf ad8441662756e52ad81a9aff83e866af PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Nickoli Kotchka (00: 29:25) (0:45) The early years (West Virginia) • Born July 26, 1915 • Lived in East Gulf, West Virginia which was a coal mining town o Father was a coal miner • Attended school in a two-story building that had a total of 8 classrooms • Moved from West Virginia to a farm in Michigan o Attended 7th grade in Michigan (3:35) The Michigan farm • 40 acre farm • 2-3 cows and some chickens, pigs, horses o Sold the cream and eggs in town o Horses were used to pull the plows—there were no tractors back then! (5:30) Life in Michigan • Mom had cancer so Nick dropped out of school to help his dad take care of the farm and his mom • Used to go to the 7th Street Drug Store in Grand Rapids for medicine for his mom o A Polish family ran the store which is why Nick’s family went there (since they were Polish too) o The adults would often talk in Polish ƒ Nick spoke both English and Polish (7:15) The Depression • Lived off the farm and vegetable gardens (8:35) Jobs • Worked at Grand Rapids Brass for 2 years and then went to war (9:05) Pearl Harbor • Heard about it on the news and heard FDR’s speech o Nick always listened to the news (9:45) Draft • Drafted into the Army in 1942 • Went to Africa and then on to Sicily • Basic Training took place at Camp Horner, Texas (11:15) Italy • Germans were staked out in the mountains • Nick’s division went around behind the Germans • Nick’s division did not suffer too many casualties • From Italy went to France and then on to Austria (15:35) The end of the war (Austria) • Stopped in Austria because the war was over �• • In Austria, Kotchka saw lots of German soldiers marching and surrendering Did not see any fighting in Austria since the war was over but did see fighting in Italy and France o Did not see any fighting while in Africa either • Kotchka never was injured, “never got a scratch” (18:37) After the war • Stayed in Europe all summer • Did not have to do anything o Did a little bit of sight seeing but mostly slept (19:40) The ship ride home • Traveled home by ship o Kotchka never got sea sick but he was one of the lucky few. He saw practically everyone else on his ship get sick. (20:20) Home • Worked at Sparta Foundry for 30 years o Making piston rings, etc. (21:25) Marriage • Got married in 1947 o Kotchka knew her family growing up however they did not start dating or taking interest in one another until after Kotchka returned from war • Had 3 sons – Bill, Tom, and Joe o One set of twins and then another boy • Plane Crash involving Joe o Joe was going to Florida for a bowling tournament with a friend o Left Sparta Airport at 8 am but while flying over Tennessee, they encounter a terrible storm o While flying at 200 feet, the storm flipped the plane over and the plane crashed o Both Joe and the friend lost their lives in the crash (24:50) Grandchildren • Has 7 grandchildren o 6 girls and 1 boy (25:40) How the Army Impacted his Life • Kotchka felt the service was like a vacation since he never got a scratch while serving (although there were a few close calls). (26:28) Food in the Army • Food was pretty good o Lots of spam (27:50) Letters from home • Received quite a few letters from home during the war • Still has some of the letters � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KotchkaN Title A name given to the resource Kotchka, Nickoli (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kotchka, Nickoli Description An account of the resource Nickoli Kotchka is a World War II Veteran who served in the United States Army from 1942 to 1945 in Africa, Italy, France, and Austria as a member of the 15th Infantry 3rd Division. Soon after Pearl Harbor, Kotchka was drafted into the Army and sent to Europe. Kotchka discusses his time in Europe and some of the fighting in Italy, as well as his life after the war. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c00297a8894e22ee3797fd79a10e8b11.m4v 37f497b1e1baff90b3bf89692fa82645 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa8dbabb714f1ee4a3ff44991bc32709.pdf ff1dfb7492b70e9e162e6aeaa508fa3f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Alfred Kowalewski World War II 1 hour 8 minutes 9 seconds (00:01:13) Early Life -Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on Memorial Day, 1925 -Father had lived in Poland and Russia before moving to America when he was 18, or 19 -Mother was born and raised in Grand Rapids -Older brother was killed in action in World War One just before the Armistice -Family was paid $300 by the government -Father worked at a furniture factory -He was a meticulous worker -Had three sisters and one brother -Brother died in 1972 from a heart attack -Older sister died in a car accident -Husband and her children survived the crash -Other sister is still living -Other sister has since passed away from cancer -Went to St. Isidore's Catholic Elementary School -Went to Catholic Central High School -Graduated from there in 1942 (00:08:07) Enlisting in the Navy -He studied at a National Youth Administration school in Grand Rapids -After graduating from high school in 1942 -Welding and machine school -Decided to go into the Navy as opposed to getting drafted -Enlisted in July 1943 -Given a basic physical exam to make sure he was healthy enough to serve (00:10:23) Basic Training -Sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training -Enjoyed basic training -Did a lot of marching -Did gas training with tear gas -Learned how to put on a gas mask in a gassed environment -Received survival training -How to use pants or a sheet as a floatation device -Discipline didn't bother him -Tried to volunteer to be a tailgunner on a torpedo plane at the end of basic training -Not old enough (00:12:11) Diesel School -Sent to Chicago for Diesel Mechanic School -Stayed there for six weeks -Visited his aunt a lot and went to Mass �-One time sat through three Masses waiting for his aunt to pick him up (00:13:30) Amphibious Training -Sent to Little Creek, Virginia for amphibious training -Got up in the morning and started the landing craft -Went out on Chesapeake Bay for maneuvres -Half of the landing craft wouldn't start -Did that for six to eight weeks -Sent to Fort Pierce, Florida for advanced amphibious training (00:14:29) Deployment to the European Theatre -Went to Panama City, Florida to wait for a ship -Got redirected to New Orleans to pick up a ship there -Received more training there -Boarded a ship and sailed up the East Coast -Went to Nova Scotia then sailed to Iceland -On April 6, 1944 at 2:30 in the morning he was in the engine room of his ship -Part of a 40 ship convoy -Heard explosions -General quarters were sounded and he went to his gun position -Germans had torpedoed the ships on each side of his ship -Couldn't stop to help any of the men in the water (00:17:00) Training in England to Prepare for D-Day -Went to Falmouth, England -Operated out of Weymouth, Portland, Southampton, and Plymouth -Training how to move supplies between England and France -Heard reports of Landing Ship, Tanks being sunk off of Slapton Sands, England -Happened on April 28, 1944 during Operation Tiger; preparation for D-Day -The ships were attacked by German E-Boats (similar to PT Boats) -Over 700 men were killed in the attack -Note: 946 killed, 200 wounded -The attack during Operation Tiger was kept secret for years (00:19:37) D-Day Invasion Pt. 1 -Started loading troops and supplies for D-Day -England was a massive staging area on the eve of the invasion -Ships, guns, and supplies spread out all over England -Saw British Spitfires flying out to intercept German bombers -Started moving across the English Channel, but had to turn around due to bad weather -Orders changed and they received word to launch the attack on June 6, 1944 -Unreal to see 5,000 ships sailing toward France -His ship was carrying 25 tanks as well as jeeps and soldiers -Had breakfast on the morning of June 6 and a priest held Mass for everyone -Boarded a landing craft along with 30 infantrymen and they were lowered to the water -Rendezvoused with the other landing craft waiting for the order to attack -Received the order to invade; they formed a line and charged toward the beach -Water was deeper than expected -Men stepped off the landing craft with 70 pound backpacks -Half of them drowned before they got to shore �-German machine guns opened up on them immediately -Soldiers were ripped apart before they got to shore, body parts flying everywhere (00:23:22) Stationed on Omaha Beach Pt. 1 -After the beachhead was secured his crew stayed on Omaha Beach for about one month -Unloading supplies from ships to sustain the advance into France -Remembers a massive storm on June 19, 1944 that sank more ships than the Germans on D-Day (00:24:30) USS Cheboygan County (LST-533) -He was stationed on the USS Cheboygan County (LST-533) -Landing Ship, Tank (nicknamed Large, Slow, Target by the men) -Carried 25 tanks -Carried two Higgins boats (landing craft for infantry) -Could carry 32 infantrymen and 4 sailors -Had a plywood body and a steel ramp -Very little armor and no protection from machine guns or mines -Underwater Demolitions Teams tried to clear out the mines -Unable to get all of them though -Saw a Higgins boat vaporized by a mine on D-Day (00:26:33) D-Day Invasion Pt. 2 -The sector he landed at on Omaha Beach was the place where 2,000 men were killed -Most likely Easy Red -His position was the engineer tending to the motor on the Higgins boat -Not allowed to try and rescue the wounded, or recover the dead during the invasion -Had battleships bombarding the German positions -Could feel the concussions from the artillery -Tried to get tanks ashore using a large inflatable skirt -Called Duplex Drive tanks (nicknamed Donald Duck tanks) -Dropped off too far from shore and only two made it to shore -Communications were limited to walkie talkies and hand signals -Remembers that it was chaotic and there were bodies everywhere -Explored Omaha Beach after the invasion -Saw bodies and personal possessions scattered everywhere -Saw family photos, realized the men had been husbands and fathers -Got no sleep, and just had to keep going -General Eisenhower prepared two letters -One saying the invasion failed and he took full responsibility -The other saying the invasion was successful and a new front had been opened (00:33:00) Stationed on Omaha Beach Pt. 2 -Stayed with the Army on Omaha Beach as Allied forces advanced inland -Slept in a pup tent and ate canned soup -Also had K Rations and C Rations to eat -Liked C Rations better because they had more substantial food items -K Rations were basic and meant for survival �-Ate better when he was on a ship -Spam, fruit cocktail, and bread (00:35:17) Prisoners of War -Brought 700 German prisoners of war to England -Mix of German regulars and Polish conscripts -Some of them spoke English -Brought 300 liberated Polish prisoners of war and 18 Polish nurses -He could talk to them because he was raised speaking Polish -They were surprised that an American spoke fluent Polish -They thought he was in the Polish Navy -Remembers a Polish prisoner talking to an American soldier -Pole asked if the American was a German -American said yes and the Pole started choking him -Didn't understand that the American's heritage was German -The Poles had tattoos on their arms from when they were in a German prison camp (00:38:08) Stationed in England -After a month on Omaha Beach he returned to England aboard a Liberty Ship -Upon returning to England he boarded the USS Cheboygan County -Sailed between England and France delivering supplies -Got to visit London twice -Saw Westminster Abbey, St. Paul's Cathedral, and the Coronation Chair -Germans started to use V1 and V2 missiles against England -Targeted London most of the time -The British people took all of it in stride -Learned they were good people that would do anything to help their allies -Got to know some British civilians and soldiers -Went to pubs with them -Remembers that the English had superb ale (00:41:13) Battle of the Bulge -On Christmas 1944 he sailed with the LST-533 to Le Havre, France -Sailed up the Seine River to Rouen -Armed and ready to fight if necessary -Mission was to bring supplies to Allied troops fighting in Belgium during the Battle of the Bulge -Belgians and Allied troops were desperate (00:43:44) Contact with Family -Able to write his family a lot -The day after D-Day he wrote home and told his parents about the invasion (00:44:17) Reflections Pt. 1 -Enjoyed England and the English people -Never felt terrified during his time in the Navy because he always had a love of adventure -Felt that joining the Navy afforded him more safety -Felt natural being in the Navy since he grew up fishing and being on the water �-Had a lot of good men in his crew -Mix of Minnesotans, New Yorkers, and Michiganders; everybody got along -Had a good captain (00:46:04) Downtime -A lot of men gambled to pass the time -Played cards and threw dice -Heard about one soldier that made $2000 before D-Day -Spent it all because he didn't think he would survive the invasion -Got to go home on leave before being deployed -While waiting to go overseas he was in New York -Boarded a train and learned it was going to Canada -Eventually got off the train at Buffalo, New York -Shared a bottle of whiskey with a Canadian soldier (00:48:37) End of Service, End of the War, & Post-War Duty -Got disharged in March 1946 -Came back to the United States in late May 1945 -War was still being fought in Japan -In December 1945 the crew of LST-533 received orders to take supplies to Florida -Crew was angry that Christmas leave was cancelled -Sailing out of Providence, Rhode Island -Ran into a bad storm off the coast of New York -Had to turn back because the ship was taking on water -Ship was put in dry dock and the men got to have Christmas leave -In July 1945 he got 30 days of leave -Preparing to go to the Pacific Theatre for the invasion of Japan -At the end of his leave the atomic bombs were dropped and Japan surrendered in August -People were running around in Grand Rapids celebrating the end of the war -When the war ended all of the men expected to be discharged immediately -Learned that they needed 85 points to be discharged -Points given for length of service, combat, rank, and dependents -In March 1946 he went from New Jersey to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois -Got discharged there (00:52:48) Coming Home -Took a train from Chicago to South Bend, Indiana with his friend -Friend decided to drive him back to Grand Rapids from South Bend -Ran out of gas around 3AM and they pushed the car to a gas station -Friend had to turn back and Alfred hitchhiked back to Grand Rapids -Parents were happy to see him and celebrated his homecoming (00:54:46) Reflections Pt. 2 -People were willing to sacrifice for the war effort -Men enlisted without hesitation -Civilians donated scrap metal, grease (to make explosives), and live on rations -Father and sister worked at a B-24 factory -Relatives and and men from his neighborhood were in the service �-A classmate was was overboard in the Atlantic Ocean -A cousin was killed in action -A neighborhood friend was killed in action when the USS Houston sank -People gave up a lot to help out during the war -After the war, things improved and jobs came back -Believes that the Great Depression prepared people to help each other and live with less -Working on farms with his brother and brothers-in-law prepared him for work in the Navy -People helped each other, and he feels that we have lost that -He was able to talk about his experiences without problems, but most men didn't -Feels that the war traumatized other men more -Initially tried to get into the Army Air Force as a pilot -Took the test and passed, but there weren't any open slots -Enlisted in the Navy after that -In retrospect, he's glad that he didn't become a pilot since so many died in the war (01:02:36) Monkey Story -While working on Omaha Beach he spent some time sleeping on a ship -The man in the bunk above his had a pet monkey -The man was away on duty and the monkey was screeching -Al grabbed the monkey and covered it up like a baby, and it fell asleep with him (01:04:34) Life after the War -He didn't use the GI Bill after the war -Went to work after getting out of the Navy -Worked in an automotive factory for a while and various other jobs -Met his wife, Helen, and started a family -He was part of the American Legion for a while, but got busy with raising his children -He is now part of a new veterans' organization -Still busy around the house though and babysitting his great-granddaughters � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KowalewskiA1779V Title A name given to the resource Kowalewski, Alfred Eugene (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-06-05 Description An account of the resource Alfred Kowalewski was born on Memorial Day, 1925 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In July 1943 he enlisted in the Navy and was sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training. He went into Chicago for Diesel School then on to Little Creek, Virginia to receive amphibious training. In March 1944 he boarded the USS Cheboygan County (LST-533) and sailed to England. En route he witnessed the sinking of multiple ships in their convoy. He trained in England preparing for the invasion of Normandy on June 6, 1944 and on D-Day took part in the invasion. He served aboard a Higgins boat as an engineer and helped land troops at Easy Red Sector at Omaha Beach. He helped with supplies on Omaha Beach after the beachhead was secured and then operated out of England helping transport supplies and troops to mainland Europe and also bringing German prisoners of war, and freed Allied prisoners of war back to England. During the Battle of the Bulge he transported supplies to Allied forces in Belgium. In late May 1945 he returned to the U.S. and prepared for the invasion of Japan. After Japan surrendered in August 1945 he was stationed on the East Coast until he returned to Great Lakes Naval Station in March 1946 and got discharged there. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kowalewski, Alfred Eugene Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Deb (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/acd038172e18bcd1123cb0a3c648fbac.mp4 257387d169c3b9900616c49f4e25307f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7202d58e1f1676eabcbf4fe062f83b61.pdf 78e9be9ee2cda2a54f2bdc968fb1b282 PDF Text Text Bernard Kraai United States Army World War II – European Theatre 1:17:00 00:07 Introduction: - Born in Grand Haven, Michigan in 1919. - Graduated from high school in 1936. - His father worked at a piano factory. - During the depression, his father lost his job, so his mother assisted financially by baking bread and taking in the wash. - He worked for Western Union while in high school. - He also worked in a shipping department of a factory right out of high school until 1942. - He worked at Keller Tool Company making pneumatic tools for the war efforts. - There was a major gender shift in the workforce during the war, including in the factory at Keller Tool. - He felt pressure to enlist in the military before he was drafted. - He does not remember any of the women having any problems while working in the factory. - Single and married women worked in the factory. - Received his draft notice in March 1944. - Had to go to Detroit, Michigan for his physical. - There were many men who did not pass the physical. 06:10 Basic Training: - Received his notice to report in June 1944. - Went to Fort Sheridan, Illinois to receive clothing and equipment. - He remained at Fort Sheridan for 4-5 days. - He was then sent to Camp Croft, South Carolina by train. - The train ride took 2 days. - The drill instructors were good to the men. - Half of the training period was sent in one battalion, and then sent to another to finish the training. - Basic training consisted of a lot of exercise as well as weapons training. - He was trained on an M-1 Rifle. - He had no problem with the training, he felt the food was good and the officers were polite. - Spent 17 weeks in South Carolina. 10:30 Voyage Overseas: - After basic, he had a 10-day furlough. - He was then sent to Fort Meade, Maryland, for processing. - He was then sent to New York to load the Queen Elizabeth to go overseas. - The ship did not need an escort across the ocean. There was an air escort for one day out of New York and one day before England. �- The voyage took four days. He landed in Scotland. They could only have two meals a day because there were so many troops aboard. He crossed the ocean in November. Once they arrived, they took a train to Glasgow, and then to Southampton England. They remained in Southampton in four days. 14:50 Moving to the 80th Division: - Was part of a replacement unit in France. - Took a train to the 80th division. - The 80th division was in the south of France and was supposed to go to the East to Germany. - The replacements trained for a few days with the troops before heading out. - The division had taken many losses at the battle at the Moselle River. - The company had been replaced over six times, since they made their way into France, until the end of the war. - He joined a mortar unit. - He was the gunner in his unit, with a 60 millimeter mortar that weighed 42 lbs. He had to carry the entire mortar through France. 18:45 Battle of the Bulge: - Did not know exactly what was about to happen. - The weather was not bad when they began to move towards the battle. - The men traveled to a small town in Luxembourg and stayed in the homes of residents. - They walked from Luxembourg onward. - Made first contact with the enemy a day or two before Christmas. - The Germans fired one shell in the troops’ direction; this is when he realized this was really war. - On Christmas Eve, the men could hear Silent Night being played over a loudspeaker. - On Christmas, they started to move into position. - The day after Christmas, they began their move towards Bastogne. - They began taking mortar fire from the Germans. - At one point, he got down into a depression from a tank. - He was hit in the head by a piece of shrapnel, it missed his helmet and went into the side of his head, and it did not penetrate his skull. - He was unconscious, and had a concussion. - A medic came to him, bandaged his head and he was sent to the aid station a couple of miles away. - The field hospital was set up in tents. - He was laid up for 8 or 9 days due to his wounds. - He went straight to his unit after being released from the hospital. - On the way back to the front, he received a 1903 rifle, which was more accurate than the M-1. �- More replacements had joined his division while he was in the hospital, due to heavy losses during the attacks. 30:00 Movement through France and Second Injury: - While moving through France, Luxembourg and Belgium, the towns were basically deserted. - The men spent many nights outside in the snow. - To keep warm, the men would wear two pair of long underwear, two sweaters, field jackets, and overcoats to sleep. - There were very few times that the men could bathe or wash their clothes. - The food was scarce while moving, they would live on K rations and C rations. - The men would eat the chickens left in the towns to eat. - While the men were beginning their push toward the Rhine, the men traveled through pitch-black conditions. The men began crossing a swamp and came to a fence. Once the men cut the fence, a parachute flare erupted. - Nothing happened after the flare erupted. - They came across a group of German troops, who didn’t fire at the men at all. The Germans were then taken prisoner. - They came into contact with more Germans, who shot large mortars at the allies. He took a piece of shrapnel in the arm after a mortar exploded after hitting a tree. - His injury required surgery due to the amount of debris in the wound. - He took a plane to Paris and remained in the hospital for seven weeks, until the end of the war. - Recalls the hospital being very modern at the time. - Toward the end of his hospitalization, he took part in physical exercises to maintain his fitness. - The mobile injured would sneak out of the hospital to go to downtown Paris. - There were also organized trips for the troops, including a trip to the Notre Dame Cathedral. - The relationship between the Parisians and soldiers; many of the soldiers did not speak French. - The soldiers were told not to mix with the civilians. - He was in uptown Paris on the day the war ended in Europe. - There were many people walking around with a bottle of wine on V-E day, but not a large celebration that he saw. 47:00 Germany and Yugoslavia: - Returned to his division soon after the end of the war. - His division was on the Italian border in Austria. - They were ready to move into Yugoslavia in case of attack by Tito. - The German Fourth Army came up from Italy and surrendered their equipment to the 80th division. - Many of the men in the 80th division took many weapons from a large pile of equipment in a field. - The German military was still in full uniform, and were of regular military age. �- - There were rumors of German SS troops in the mountains surrounding the 80th division ready to shoot the allied troops. They moved into Germany after Austria. They were supposed to guard the Radio City Rockettes for two days while they were in Germany entertaining the troops. They were stationed in middle Germany for about two weeks, and then moved into Bavaria for occupation duty. He was placed into a civilian home with another soldier that could speak German. The son of the homeowners came home from the Russian front and was given the job of town policeman. The people he stayed with were very nice, and they would do favors for them in return for their kindness. They found out about the atom bomb from the German civilians. At first, the soldiers didn’t fully believe it until they heard the news from military men. He tried out for a choir with a chaplain, and moved daily from town to town to perform. Once the chaplain left, the chorus disbanded, but division headquarters wanted entertainment for the troops so they got back together again. They then lived in hotels while they traveled and performed. At one point, they performed for Generals Eisenhower and Patton. While traveling, he was able to tour castles in Bavaria and traveled into Czechoslovakia. 1:00:30 Czechoslovakia: - There were no fears of Soviet occupation while he was in Czechoslovakia. - He lived very well in the area, they lived in a hotel, and had a barber cut their hair once a week and shave them every day. - He found out that he had word be sent home on a emergency return. He had no idea why he was being sent home at the time. - Once he went to the division headquarters, he was told to head home. - He wanted to go to Munich to the 3rd army headquarters to find out why he was being sent home. They had no more information than anyone else. - He took a train to Paris, contacted the Air Corps to see if he could take a plane home, however it would have taken over a week. - He met with another soldier who was trying to get home, they went to the coast and got aboard a ship to head home. - Once he arrived in the states, he found that his father was dying of cancer. - Because his father was not going to die imminently, he waited for a week to be discharged. - Once he was discharged, he received a travel ticket that was supposed to pay his way home, but once they arrived in Indianapolis, they found Greyhound was on strike. - They took a small bus to South Bend, Indiana, and another to Benton Harbor, Michigan. - The five guys heading for Michigan started hitchhiking. - They flagged down a taxi that brought the men north to Muskegon. �1:08:00 Returning Home and other memories: - He returned to work at Keller Tool Company. - He divorced his first wife, and married his second, who he is still with. - He became a supervisor at Keller and remained there until he retired. - Many of the German soldiers would wear American uniforms during combat. - The company that he worked for gave all of the men who served a large book to record their military memories in. - He has served on the honor guard for 25 years. ����������������������������������������������������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KraaiB Title A name given to the resource Kraai, Bernard (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kraai, Bernard Description An account of the resource Bernard Kraai was drafted into the US Army in 1944, and served in Europe with the 80th Division in late 1944 and 1945. His unit participated in the Battle of the Bulge and the advance into Germany. He was wounded twice, but rejoined his unit each time, and at the end of the war his unit marched into Austria, to the Yugoslav frontier, and eventually into Czechoslovakia. After the war ended, he joined a choir recruited from his unit and toured the region with them until he was discharged. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Kentwood, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-06-30 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives