442 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/472883a458b49796c3c16213ef0f4cd2.mp4 fae226126986cfb73d669506d2700ff2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fdfb253572e89011d44403ddf34b2a3c.pdf 6ff12016c6b802d68b45f9524f0aec0e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Keith King World War II 1 hour 7 minutes 58 seconds (00:00:14) Early Life -Born on April 5, 1921 in Greenville, Michigan -Grew up in Greenville -Went to high school in Greenville -Graduated in 1939 -The Great Depression made life very difficult for them on the farm -Three families lived on their farm -Mother died when he was two years old -Father remarried and had four more children with Keith's stepmother -Shared the farm with his uncle's family -He helped on the farm -Decided when he was a junior in high school that he would be a farmer -After graduating from high school he stayed on the farm to help his father -Wound up getting a farming job in Greenville through a cooperative program -Sent to Cleveland, Ohio to learn about how to repair farming equipment (00:02:47) Start of the War -He was working in Greenville when he heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor -He was aware of what was happening in Europe and Asia in the late 1930s -Knew about Hitler and Mussolini -Didn't understand everything, but was very aware of what they were doing -He was in a cow barn and heard the news on the radio that Pearl Harbor had been destroyed (00:03:52) Enlisting in the Army -Shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor he decided to enlist -Wanted to join the Army and help beat Hitler -Believed that the war would be over within six months after the U.S. joined it -Enlisted in the Army in 1942 -Processed at Camp Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan (00:05:00) Training -Took a train from Camp Custer to Los Angeles, California -Boarded a troop train in Los Angeles and went north to Camp Roberts, California -Greeted by a sergeant that introduced the new recruits to how the Army operated -There was the "Army way" and "your way" and the "Army way" always won -Spent three months training at Camp Roberts -He was interviewed about his civilian work experiencec and any applicable skills -Because he was a certified mechanic he was assigned to vehicle maintenance �-Received three weeks of basic infantry training -Learned how to clean and fire the M1 Garand rifle -Also learned how to fire the Browning Automatic Rifle and M1A1 Carbine -Learned how to march -Learned the fundamentals of being an infantryman -High emphasis on discipline -When the lights turned on in the morning you were expected to be up and ready quickly -Men that didn't adjust to the regimen of Army life were punished -Usually by getting yelled at and being assigned extra menial duty -He adjusted well to Army life and had no problem following orders -Learned how to work on jeeps, weapons carriers (jeep/pickup truck), and the 2.5 ton trucks -He was "first echelon" -Meant he could change oil and change bearings, but could not work on the engine -Trained with men from all over the United States -Some men were in their early thirties, but most of the men were in their early twenties -Majority of the men he trained with were draftees (00:10:35) Stationed at Camp Butner -Boarded another troop train and went north to Seattle then cut southeast -Five days later wound up at Camp Butner, North Carolina -It was a new camp -He was assigned to a service company in the 310th Infantry Regiment, 78th Infantry Division -Service company had cooks, typists, clerks, and maintenance personnel -Did regular maintenance work on vehicles while at Camp Butner -Got married while he was stationed at Camp Butner -Met a girl at a dance in Greensboro, North Carolina and eventually married her -Stationed at Camp Butner for a year -Helped keep the base functioning by keeping the vehicles running -The South was tremendously different from the North -Wife's family owned a tobacco plantation -Father-in-law was a Democrat ("Dixiecrat":pro-Southern) -Able to bond over mutual interest and knowledge of farming -Noticed the segregation in the South -Whites boarded buses first, then the blacks got on if there was any room -Saw the separate bathrooms and other public facilities -Came as a tremendous culture shock to him -Went on maneuvres in South Carolina -Acted like he was in combat and did the same job he would do in combat -Helped repair vehicles -Went on long marches -Southerners were gracious and helpful �-He got along well with the men that he served with -Had to out of necessity -There was only one older sergeant among the younger noncommissioned officers -He only pulled rank if it was absolutely necessary -Only had one bad encounter with an officer and it was the general of the 78th -Got reprimanded by General Parker for walking to work with his hands in his pockets -Allowed to live off the base with his wife because he was a sergeant -Got disenfranchised with the Army because he didn't feel that he was doing much for the war -Requested to be discharged to go back to working on the farm in Michigan -Felt he would do more good for the war effort by working on the farm -Didn't realize that he was part of a larger strategy -Army knew that the 78th needed to be kept in the U.S. until the right moment (00:24:36) Deployment to the European Theatre -In fall 1944 they received orders to go overseas -The response among the troops was positive -Went on maneuvres in Tennessee to preprare for the deployment -Went to Virginia for final training before going overseas -Sailed out of New Jersey on a repurposed English passenger ship -Hurt his ankle before getting deployed but wanted to go anyway -Managed to get a top bunk in a seven-high bunk bed on the ship -Sailed in a convoy with other transports and protected by destroyers -Woke up one day and the ship was by itself on the Atlantic Ocean -One of the engines had failed -At the mercy of the U-Boats -Repaired the engine and caught up with the convoy (00:28:00) Arrival in Europe -Arrived at Plymouth, England -Went to an encampment near the White Cliffs of Dover -Stayed there for five days and received new equipment before going to the continent -Crossed the English Channel on Thanksgiving Day 1944 -That crossing was a little rough -Saw the remains of ships in the water off the coast of France -Lectured not to talk to any French civilians -Didn't know if they were Nazi-sympathizers, or not (00:29:24) Battle of the Bulge Pt. 1 -After arriving in France they moved into Tongeren, Belgium on November 27, 1944 -From Belgium they moved into the 310th Infantry Regiment moved into the Hurtgen Forest -Moved into the Hurtgen Forest (Germany) in early December 1944 -Remembers that the whole area resembled Michigan -It was starting to get cold -Slept in tents, abandoned buildings, or captured German quarters �-Dug in and didn't move much once they hit the front line -Their objective was to protect a dam in the area and defend the area from any German attacks -Battle of the Bulge began in mid-December 1944 -Allied artillery fired over their heads into the German "bulge" -One of his jobs was putting a wooden cross on the front of jeeps -Did this to disarm wire booby traps the Germans strung across roads to behead GIs -Held their ground when the Germans made their major offensive -Always had a lot of work to do -Most vehicles sustained damage during the initial assault -There was a town with some damaged American vehicles -Ordered to go into the town and drive the vehicles out -Went out two GIs per vehicle -Drove as fast as they could to avoid getting hit by German artillery -Got back to base with four blown tires -Had to drive six miles dodging artillery -Service Company never had one casualty -Held the line through January 1945 and advanced at the end of January (00:35:56) Advancing into Germany Pt. 1 -Captured a few dams in Germany in February 1945 -Captured one larger dam similar to the Hoover Dam -Note: Most likely the Schwammanauel Dam on February 9, 1945 (00:36:40) Battle of the Bulge Pt. 2 -On Christmas Day 1944 they got some cakes to give to the riflemen -Still remembers seeing all of those young men, fresh out of high school going to battle -Knew that ninety percent of them weren't going to make it (00:37:50) Advancing into Germany Pt. 2 -Most of the German villages they encountered were shot up -Had to bombard towns to force out, or kill, the remaining German resistance -Saw a cow tied up in some rubble -Farmer wanted to retrieve the cow -GIs held him back because it was probably a booby trap -Crossed the Ludendorff Bridge at Remagen, Germany -Only one of two remaining bridges that spanned the Rhine River -Learned that the first tank to cross the bridge was driven by another man from Greenville -He survived the war and they talked about their experiences later -German Stuka dive bombers strafed and bombed the American forces in vain -He stayed on the west bank and watched the advance of the American troops -Germans had no strength to resist the advance across the Rhine -Had to wait for the pontoon bridge to be built because the Ludendorff wasn't stable -Found a damaged Kubelwagen and repaired it �-Drove across the pontoon bridge in the captured Kubelwagen -Moved north up the east bank -Fought in the Ruhr Pocket -Ran into an old neighbor from Greenville who was serving as an officer and an artillery observer -Moved into an agricultural area -Advanced into the Ruhr Pocket in April 1945 -Set up their motor pool in a farmer's backyard -Conversed with the German farmer and helped him with milking the cow -Feels that that simple action promoted a lot of good will -Learned about what motivated the Germans to support Hitler -They didn't realize what he was until it was too late -Resistance was put down brutally and quickly -Even German "Aryans" were subject to rape and execution -Younger Germans, especially young women, ardently supported Nazism -Didn't understand the barbarism the Nazis were capable of -He captured twelve German soldiers near the end of the war -They were happy to give up -They were in their thirties or forties and had most likely been forced into service -Impressed by how quickly the German civilians cleaned up their bombed out communities (00:50:16) End of the War in Europe -Barred from entering Berlin until after the Soviets captured the city -He was forty miles from Berlin when he ran into his brother -He was an officer in the Cavalry -After the war ended they stayed in the western part of Germany -Quartered in old German barracks -He got to know some of the Germans and went wild boar hunting with them -Didn't stay in Germany too long after the war ended because he had enough points to go home -Needed 85 points to go home -Points were awarded based on length of service, combat seen, dependents, and rank -Celebrated VE Day (May 8, 1945) by going onto the roof of a railroad station and drinking wine -Ran into a French brother and sister that were Displaced Persons and had been slave laborers -Learned about what they went through -The average person was ready to give up long before Germany surrendered -German civilians were very compliant with the American soldiers (00:57:52) Coming Home & End of Service -Took a ship out of Antwerp, Belgium -Got out of Europe just before men were scheduled to retrain for occupation duty in Japan �-Left Europe in September 1945 -Took fourteen days to get back to the United States -Ran into a bad storm and had to endure that for two days -Arrived in Boston -Got a steak dinner -Sent to Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania to be discharged -Ready to go home -Whole process took three days (01:02:24) Life after the War Pt. 1 -Father brought Keith's wife and son up to Michigan -Took a series of bus rides from Pennsylvania back to Greenville, Michigan -Got home at 9 or 9:30 PM -Greeted by his wife and his sister -Felt strange, and kind of anticlimactic, to be back in Michigan -Got a job with Carnation Milk -Worked for them for four years -Got back into farming with his father -Wife adapted well to life on the farm -Raised cattle, dairy cows, and grew wheat and corn (01:05:13) Reflections on Service -Feels that it was an education you couldn't buy -Learned a lot through what he experienced during the war (01:05:53) Life after the War Pt. 2 -Sold the farm to Ore-Ida in 1964 with the condition that he could live and work on the farm -Continued to work for eighteen years then retired -Wife died from breast cancer in 1985 -As of 2015 he still lives on part of the original farm and still enjoys doing a little farming � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KingK1863V Title A name given to the resource King, Keith C (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-08-03 Description An account of the resource Keith King was born on April 5, 1921 in Greenville, Michigan. After the attack on Pearl Harbor he enlisted in the Army in 1942. He was processed at Camp Custer, Michigan then went to Camp Roberts, California for three months of infantry training and vehicle maintenance training. From Camp Roberts he was sent to Camp Butner, North Carolina and was assigned to a Service Company in the 310th Infantry Regiment of the 78th Infantry Division. He went on maneuvres, got married, and worked at Camp Butner until the division was deployed in fall 1944. They crossed into France in late November 1944 and took up positions in the Hurtgen Forest on the Belgian-German border. He took part in the Battle of the Bulge then the advance into Germany, crossing the Rhine River in March 1945 and fighting in the Ruhr Pocket until Germany surrendered in May 1945. He stayed in Germany until September 1945 when he was sent back to the United States and discharged at Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource King, Kieth C. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12aa80b12b4e5d431df5d265ac861fa4.pdf 675745f12a56598e2ebb7428126c52cc PDF Text Text ����� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CWKinsley Title A name given to the resource Betsy Kinsley from Charlie Kinsley, Jun. 9, 1861 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kinsley, Charlie Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army. Michigan Cavalry Regiment, 4th (1862-1865) Romeo (Mich.) New London (Ohio) Michigan Description An account of the resource Letter written by a guitar player performing with a traveling circus in Michigan. The band plays for the 4th Michigan Regiment. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ba8ce7d8bbc356a6df340cba1d81784f.mp4 a8e29ca5802f5ccb357191e6399f29b8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f7bfdd0b881f0bcb3cb415f837cfb5c9.pdf b1c7ef04ae9595e9d5ed55bf60089e24 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State Univeristy Veterans History Project MarthaJane Kirby (00:55:47) (00:25) Background Information • Martha was born in Kansas City, Missouri on November 4, 1927 • Her father had worked for the local newspaper and played instruments in bands on the side • Her mother died when she was ten years old • She enjoyed school and remembered being a freshman in high school when Pearl Harbor was attacked • Her high school years were surrounded by the war effort and many young people she knew were being drafted into the service • Martha graduated from high school on D Day • She recalled the rationing of meat, coffee, sugar, tires, and women’s nylons • She went through mandatory ROTC training in school • After school Martha began working as a file clerk and also began doing a little modeling (07:15) Jack and Stan • Martha had been dating a young man named Jack and he was in Iwo Jima with his friend Stan. Jack and Stan agreed to start writing to each other’s girlfriends so that if something happened to one of them, the other could communicate with his girlfriend. • Jack was killed in battle and Stan and Martha started a regular correspondence • They wrote each other for eighteen months and fell in love through the process, aided by a photograph of Martha that a professional photographer had taken that she had sent originally to Jack [picture is in this collection] • Stan came back to Kansas City to visit on June 19, 1946 (12:20) Life after the War • Stan began taking classes at MSU and it was hard for him to adjust to civilian life • Martha and Stan got married the next summer after he returned from service • Martha passed the civil service exam and began working as a secretary for the highway department • Stan got his degree is art and began working for a radio station and later began working in printing sales and graphic arts (18:20) High School during the War • Martha dated many men from high school while they were visiting on leave, but would only go out with each of them once because she did not want to get too attached • She often went to the movies, dances, and sports games • She had wanted to take classes at the University of Missouri �• She paid very close attention to news of the war because she knew so many people that were overseas, including her brother (30:05) War Movies • Many movies about World War Two are historically wrong and do not correctly represent the war • Stan was pretty upset when Letters From Iwo Jima came out (31:30) Hard Times during the War • Martha’s family had to drive far out of the way just to get gas • Martha made all of her own clothes when she could actually get her hands on some material • Shoes were also hard to come by • During the war Martha was very lonely with her brother and many friends overseas while she lived with only her dad and grandma • It took her husband fifty years to write his memoirs of Iwo Jima because it was such a horrible experience [these are in this collection] (40:05) Iwo Jima • Stan remembered seeing lifeless marines all over the place in bits and pieces • The smell was horrible from all the dead bodies • There were many Japanese bodies floating in the water (41:40) Marriage • Martha was very glad that she got married to Stan and not Jack • They were married for 57 years, had two kids, and one grandson �r "LOVE LETTERS· Preface The following pages contain excerpts from some of Stan's letters to me along with a few that are longer in length. With more than 200 to sort thru it's difficult in more ways than one to write them down. My husband was Cpl. Stanley D. Kirby, born in Lansing, Michigan; joined the United States Marine Corps on April 4,1944; trained in San Diego CA and also Camp Pendleton, CA, deployed to Oahu and Maui late '44 and served in combat on Iwo Jima February 19, 1945 to March 31, 1945. Returned to Maui Rest Camp and Oahu until returned to the States and arrived in Kansas City, MO, my home town, June 19,1946. I was his wife for 57 wonderful and happy years from 1947 to 2004. My name is Marthajane (nee Farrington) Kirby, from Kansas City, MO. ' .. Stan died January 16,2004 and is buried in the cemetery at Saranac MI where our graves, eventually, will be together. He was honored January 24, 2004 by the 24th Division Marine Corps Honor Guard from Grand Rapids, MI with full military honors, this being the division of the Corps he represented. This was a beautiful ceremony with 7 Marines in full dress uniforms who saluted him with rifle fire, gave me his U.S. flag and played "Taps" .... which I felt at that time ... "This is the last time you willhear this played, Stan. Know that I willlove you forever. " -- Your Janie ++++++ i0,.,; .· Saranac, MI 48881 j L._ '~t~~~:l~~KirbY . .~_._. �, ·LOVELETTERS' Some of my friends have asked me to reveal Stan's letters to me during World War Two. I feel they were written just for me ... my eyes ... my love for him. It's a feeling that envelops me as it seems that's all I have left of him at this time of my life. They are so personal, so precious I can't bear to part with them. However, I willcopy here from his letters those that are either funny, or not too personal Peoplehave to remember that during a war, no Marine can divulge his daily life, where he goes, what's possibly on the horizon (i.e. more combat) what he does every day regarding his work with the Marine Corps. He did however say which island he was on ... Maui, the USMCrest camp between campaigns. Only by the grace ofGod did he escape going to more combat on Okinawa as he had not been in rest camp long enough. ++++ Let's begin with the beginning. While at Camp Pendleton in CA, Stan met my highschool ·steady· and they fast became good friends and went on liberty together. Stan had a ·steady" too back in Michigan while 'Jack' was from Missouri, my home state. They decided to write each other's girlfriend in order to keep tabs on what was going on and where. Jack's first letter to me about Stan: 9-18-44.....I didn't get to answer your letter last night as a guy named Kirby and I went on liberty to Santa Monica. • 11-7-44", -Kirby wants to tell you 'hello'... (had his writing there) Everytime I start to write to you he says to tell you that. He likes your picture and says he willcall you up if he evergets to KansasCity.• ,11-9-44 .... Tm sorry I didn't know about your birthday. Kirby asked mewhen it was and I told him you already hadyour birthday! He really laughed at me about that when I told him I got your letter and you already had celebrated your birthday! " Mr. Stanley Kirby 8468 Macarthur Rd. Saranac, MI 48881-9517 , ,,' . • �12-7-44.... "Igot my first letter from you since being overseas and it was wonderful to hear from you. Youprobably have the letter Stan wrote to you last night. He saidhe wanted to write and tellyou how sweet he thought you were. Stan wants me to write to hisgirl and if I ever finish writing to everyone else I'm going to. Aren't you jealous? Answer his letterif you ever get time. I11get to read it anyway, so don't try to change boyfriends. (Just kidding, darling.) Note from JK ... not only ·changed" but married!" 12-26-44 .... ·Well, Kirby went into the 24th Marines but at least we are still in the Fourth Division. It ++++ On February 19, 1945 Jack and Stan headed for combat on 1wo Jima. They were on different ships so had no direct contact. Jack was killed on 1wo the second day of the invasion ... February 20, 1945. ++++ . - My first letter from Stan .... Dec. 6, 1944. • ·Hi Martha: I am writing this just to establish a friendship as Jack and I are great pals and we have a lot of time to discuss ourgirlfriends back home. He is really in love with you, Martha. After the war, Jack and you and mygirl and I are going to meet in Chicago andgo to the Trianon or Aragon and dance and tear Chicago apart! I hope this happens. Don't ever worry about Jack as Tm sure nothing willhappen to such a greatguy!" 1-21-45 .:"1 am writing to inquire about Jack as we are on different ships now and I can't possibly get in touch with him. Would you please send me his mailing address? Thonksl" 2-15-45.... -r doubt if you received my last letter but I'd sure like to have Jack's address.. �3-21-45 ... "Dear Martha: I hope this poor excuse for a letter finds you well and happy. I can't remember if I answered your swell letter or not. I'm all fouled up anyway. "Iwo"had quite a few effects on me! I lost some very close friends there, and I guess most everyone did. Beingmy first combat experience I wish I couldhave been "broken in"a little easier!' I wish I hadyour letter here but it's packed awayat the present. Oh well! Jack and I were split up a little while after we came overseas. Ineversaw him again and IguessI never WIll Isure think the world ofhim. He was the best pal a guy could ever have. We were such close friends. We talked about each other'sgirls all the time and I guess that's why I feel I have known you for years. I wish I were back in the States now. I alwaysloved March. The smell of the woodsgets me. Mygirlfriend and I always felt t h e . same way about those things. We alwayshad a lot ofhikes and picnics. I · . alwayslike to remember those things, but she changed and I don't find myself writing to her about those memories. She might just as wellhave written me a "Dear John" letter as that's what it was. JK note: Stan's letter arrived a week before the War Dep't telegram to Jack's Mother. 4-8-45 .... "About Jack: I want you to know I'dgive my right arm to have him back I loved thatguy like a brother. It's needless to say more 'cause you know how I feel I tried to let you know in my last letter, but due to censoring I couldn't come right out and tell you tho. We are at a wonderful rest camp nowand we were given a wonderful reception when our ship docked. It reallygave me a lump in my throat. They gave us coffee, donuts, and candy. before we left the docks.. The band was playingand everyone was cheering. Being the first time I'd ever experienced such a thing it reallygave me an emotional thrill I really appreciate it and the same goes for the other fella's. I'll never forget it. Thanks for the nice compliment about my nice letters to you. Do you like Glenn Miller'smusic? I love all the slow, beautiful music. And I love sports, especially tennis. " Mart~ajane Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd. • . Saranac, MI 48881 �(Several letters in between these) 4-11-45 .... Just saw the movie 'National Velvet' ... a very good film. But it sure made me lonely at times. Everytime I see a movie like that it's just like I was back home again. Then I look around and shrink! I need to close now as my mind is playing tricks on me. • 4-14-45 .... "Tt's rathergloomy around here tonight. Just the type of night to stay in and fiddle around. I wonder what you are doing tonight? 4-15-45 .... 'A Tree Grows in Brooklyn'is playing here tomorrow night, with the originalplaywritellstarring in it. Taps is playingnowso I have to stop here. Love, Stan· 4-19-45 .... Just a few lines. I hope you don't mind my calling you 'Jane'. If you do, say so! Last night at the theater, I saw 'The Man Who Came To Dinner'... it was the real thing with Moss Hart playing the leading role. It was reallygood. Six beautifulgirls also starred in it! Youknow Jane, I wonder what you are like. Til bet you go for sports, more or less. Doyou like tennis? I should like to meet y~u someday. Doyou think that can be arranged? Of course, God only knows when Tm comingback to the states. Unless I'm wounded or something similar. Til have to put at least 20 months in over here. If I ever do get back I'm going to make a special effort to see you! OK?· Several more letters the weeks following. 4-22-45 .... Dear Jane: I've been listening to records tonight and itgot me so lonesome, I'd likely cracked up. So I just had to write to you. When I listen to music I get so, oh, I don't know, sorta moody I guess. If I were smart I'd stay away from those sweet records! Another paragraph follows: "Pooey, I can't write anymore. My imagination gets the best ofme. So Til close. Please write soon .:. until then, bye nowand take care ofyourself. Love, sran" 4-25-45 ....Please send me a picture ofyou as I onlyhad a few shortglances at the wonderfulpicture ofyou that Jack had. Janie, Tve made up my mind! �I am coming to Kansas City to meet you when I get back! And I pray I do, and you do the same!" I sure wish I could see you sooner than what I will /:i.? able to. I don't have to tell you about the people here. I have no anxiety whatsoever to search for a nice girl, even tho she might be white! I have just as much fun on liberties playing tennis, taking pictures, etc. I hope you don't think Tm a habitual drinker either. It's a waste of money, Let's talk about you ... I'm sure you don't drink or smoke. To me a girl that drinks has lost everything she could ever have hoped to have as far as respect, etc.I know you are everything a guy could ask for. I don't know why, but I can just tell I hope you'll never change, Janie. If 4-28-45 .... "Justgot 3 letters fromsn: today and the picture. I was surprisedbut even more. glad. I like the picture very well! You know, from what you tell me about where you work, you must be a designer. About the magazines your picture is featured on the cover, they have not arrived yet but when they do I'll probably rip them to pieces to get to them! I guess we're pretty much alike in all things ....music and all Get -I Dream of You"as you come to mind whenever I hear it. -Youknow, you're kinda crazy in a very likeable way! I thought I wouldsplit when you wrote about the cake and safety towels:-..(Diapers) I got the biggest bang out of that! What a girl! (JK: I took care of my cousin on occasion when my Aunt had to work late.) "Please write soon again, Janie. I can'tget enough ofyour letters ... they are wonderful p.5. NO ... I come from Lansing, Michigan!! 4-29-45 .... "Went to church services this morning ... it was a nice service but I think about home too much at such a time. Very discouraging. Janie, I believe I can tell you now about Jack. He was killed instantly with no pain whatsoever. He was sitting in a foxhole with two officers on the front lines when a large shell fell in the hole. When I saw him? he lookedjust as usual, like he was sleeping. Tm sorry for bringing it up aga/n, Janie. He was a good Marine, and I know you are proud ofhim. Youhave all my sympathies and please let me know if I can do anything for you. Begood, and God Bless You. Love always, Stan If ... . . '. • . .Martt"!ajane Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd. . Saranac, MI 48881 t{ �5-1-45 .... "This is the present and I don't like to think ahead too much. Do you think you'd like to see me at the end of one and a halfyears? But this is the present and I know I want to meet you now. In my position I don't like to think or promise into the future. Know what I mean?There's something on my mind tho, and I know you can't help but to have thought about it also. Briefly, my writing to you and etc. I want you to know I couldn't, nor wouldI ever try to, take Jack's place. I know how much you loved him and what he meant to you. It puts me in a very mean position and I don't know how you're going to feel about it. Tm hopingyou willhelp me out, Janie. Please say exactly how you feel As it is, I enjoy writing you very much and I'm hoping to meet you someday. Love, Stan" 5-4-45 ... This letter is in response to a photo I sent him that' I had used to enter a national contest, and won it too! But I didn't tell Stan at that point. "Janie, I love the picture you sent me. It's just perfect. Thanksa million. Tm gazing at it right now. The fella's in my tent here think you're very beautiful, but I think you're more than just beautiful! You expressedyourselfbetter in this letter than"!: did in my last one. You see, I wrote something on the same order. Tm gladyou feel the way you do about God having a hand in things. I feel the very same way. It does seem as if it was meant to be and not wrongat all Yet I still feelguilty when I write you as if I had no business to occupy any ofyour time, or accept your swell letters as greedily as I do, because of Jack. rll tell you nowjust exactly how I feel because I don't believe anymore in keeping my thoughts back. Even tho Tve never seen you or been with you, I know that if I were to look for the person, I wouldpick you. I canjust tell from your letters that you're the type anyguy could hope for. This is just not flattery or roses, it's just the God's truth. I appreciate your saying you hope nothing happens to me and that you are praying for me. Itgives me a solid feeling inside to know that it matters. Etc. .......AII my love, Stan" �5-6-45 .... "Two wonderful letters from you .... etc. Your records sound swell to me. I wish I could be there with you listening to them right now. Tm lonely as hell tonight. Somehow I got into this mood on liberty today. Very discouraging! I imagine lot of things ... maybe classified under dreaming. I do have one trouble tho, that I get very jealous sometimes. I always was that way but I think I'm getting over that now, more or less. However when I wrote that letter I was picturing us together ... etc. Please don't worry about some of the things I say but I believe that whatever Pve written you is the God's truth and I hope it's the same with you. Somehow I miss you, how I can without ever knowingyou I can't figure out, but it's so. Must close, Janie. With all my love, Stan" Note from JK. I'm skipping thru lots of letters because this next one is so important. 5-16-45 ... You have a wonderful way ofexplaining things, Janie, and I can understand everything you write. I know how you fee~ and if I didn't feel the same, I wouldn't understandso easily. There's something tho we both must consider before itgets too late, and that is, we've both had tough luck I lost mygirl andyou lost Jack We both are »ccustomed to someone to love and receiving accordable letters. What Tm driving at it's that we've both been in love before and now, Jack's gone, I haven't seen mygirl for a long time and it's sorta like I'm your "Jack" and you are my "girl" Don'tget me wrong tho, I could never make a go of it with her again because I now know her true selfand I found it very easy to forget her. " JK ... skipping letters again. -Yes, the picture yougot was the one I was waiting for from CA. Tm glad you like it, tho it's a little flattering. You don't know how much Tm looking forward to being with you. I think about comingback so much I almostgo crazy sometimes or at least it seems I build lots of dreams and then I realize I'll be over a long time yet, and then there's the chance rll neverget back but I try not to let it bother me too much. Which boils down to the fact that if something ever happened to me, I'dwant you to know that writing to you, and the friendship we've built has meant the world to me. It must be real and it must work out. I hope you are waiting for me when I return. And, Janie, I am so glad you want to wait for me! All my love, Stan" M~rthajane ' . Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd. '!P. Saranac, MI 48881 .. �6-4-45 .... (skipping here) ... "Just saw a wonderful show so I'll finish my letter now. Saw Gypsy Rose Lee in -Bel;'of the Yukon.' Yeow!* The show was wonderful and they played a great song: T Love You But I Don't Know Why I do. N Very fitting, isn't it? I sure wish this war was over and I could be on my way to you. This waiting and waiting is slowly driving me insane. You wait to fight, and ifyou're lucky you wait to fight again. Nothing to look forward to except of course going home someday. I guess that's what keeps mostguysgoing over here, and that's the faint prayer way down deep that you'llget back Sounds kinda 'down' doesn't it? AIImy love, StanN 6-6-45 ... I'm sorry about how you felt on Memorial Day. I wish I could have been there to comfort you in some way. Keep your chin up, honey and try to look on the better side of life. I don't want to encourage your forgetting Jack even ifit was possible. I want to play square with you, something I didn't do with mygirl She lied to me and I lied to her and we were always Gotta go, All my bucking against each other. It isn't any good that way. Love, StanN -6-9-45 ..... The tent is vacant and there's some siteet music coming from far down the way and it makes it easier to write a nice letter to you. Tonight I listened to Hit Parade and heard -Laura N... that piece I love. It's a haunting melody. Sometimes it's hard to visualize you and to impress upon myself that I know you when I don't, but everything seems so perfect, so right, that I can't help but love you now. It seems so easy to write, that I think so much ofyou and I hope I don't change my mind when we're finally together. I think the world ofyour letters and when somedays I don't hear from you for a day or two, I feel rather funny, kinda lost I guess.... Thanks a million for the pictures. I like them very much. Only every picture you sendjust doubles my desire to be with you. When I get them it seems I am right there with you..... Please write soon again ..... All my love, Stan N �b­ 1-14-45 ... ·Hi, how's mygirl? Tonight I really feel fine. I just came back from the post office where I picked up the pictures you sent in the folder (contest ones, but he didn't know that then) Janie, they're super!! The new one.llike best of all. I think the world of them and the folder is just the right size. Thanks so much for sending them. You'll never know how much it means to me. You're just naturally the most wonderfulperson in the world! Today we had a parade for some fella's that were getting medals. Boy, am I tired! Imagine standing with your feet in the same spots for 2 and a half hours! Then we paraded around again and shoved off. What a life, But the boys sure looked nice with their "silver"and "bronze" stars! The only medals I want are my dog-tags, right around my neck! ..... etc. Well, it'sgetting late so Til shove off. Til be dreaming ofyou, with all my love ... Your Stan •• V N 6-15-45.... Hello Darling ... justgot in from liberty and I sure wasglad to see 2 letters from you! I have your pictures propped up in the lid of my locker trunk and I'm thinking nice things ofyou! They're just wonderfulpictures and I wouldn'tpart with them for anything. More people who have never been in our tent before come in and gaze at your pictures and drool! You asked me to tell you how I feel and I will. I told you before but I'll try again. We'll start with mygirl. I went with her for.. 4 years and itgot so I worshipped her. I was a fool and didn't know it. It took what finally happened to snap me out ofit. Yousee, Darling, mine is a case of 'lovedand lost' because I was too stupid to realize the part I played in her life, which was damn little! When she got engaged I lost all faith ingirls ... it's not just my case, it's dozens ofotherguys whogot the same deal so it can't be said it happened as "just one of those things. " I know that your letters and knowing you how I do has changed me a lot. It gave me something to live for, something to look forward to. Your letters so often, the pictures now and then have meant a lot, Janie. In a way Tm terribly in love with you. And I hope you can understand what I've tried to explain. Gottago ... 'Taps'is sounding. So till later Darling, I'll be thinking ofyou with all my love, Your Stan N . .~. .. . Marthajane Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd. Saranac, MI 48881 '1 �The following are parts of my ·very special" love letters from Stan from the years '44 to '46. His letters averaged from 2 pages to more than 12; some days he wrote twice . 8-6-45 ..'iUy Darling: "Received your wonderful letter just now. That kiss (lipstick print I had sent in my letter) really thrilled me, Honey. How about some more of them? Andyou say you'll do better when I'm there?" "I can't exactly put a kiss down in print here, but you can bet I'm really tryingr "It's rainingagain, darnit! Last night I stoodguard duty for four hours in this mud and rain. I thought a great deal about you at that time. I dream of being in a convertible with you, and sitting in the rain with you to love while some beautiful music is playing." "But I can't help it, with this life I am leading one has to have a hope, or a prayer ofhis own that someday he hopes willcome true, in order that he may continue every day without losing his mind completely. That's the way I feel about you, Janie. You're my hope. You are that 'ray ofsunshine' I need so much in this life, being overseas and all I think so much ofyou, I respect your manne"', your ways, your-: faithfulness and commonsense. I want to be with you and laugh and talk with you. In a way I'm deeply in love with you, considering the fact we've never really known each other.................... Well, Darling I guess rll close for tonight. I love you, Janie, so be good and wait for me. I miss you with ... All my love, Stan. 8-10-45 ....JAPANSURRENDERS!! "My Darling: This is a wonderful day, I guess you know! I got the news about four AM. Guys were running around yelling and shouting. I couldn't quite collect myself and then someone yelled that "Japansarrenderedll" I fast about fell off my cot. Of course it isn't officialyet but close enough to be happy about it. I hope and pray that the armistice is signed soon. What time did you hear about it and how did you feel? That's a silly question . 'cause I know how you must have felt. The people back there must begoing wild. The radio said that in London it was worse than V-E Day! Td better hear from you today Darling (and he did) 'cause that wouldmake the day lO �really perfect!" Til close for now hoping to see you and love you soon, with all my love, " Stan 9-18-45 ... ·My Darling: Receivedyour letter and the swell picture of Jack Honey, you'll never know how much that picture means to me and Til keep it always. Thanks so much for sending it. Tonight Tm onguard duty at our communications storeroom. It's kinda desolate here ... everything is crated up andprepared to be laoded aboard ship. But the radio is playing beautiful music and Tm thinking of you so the desolation doesn't phaze me much. I hope MacArthur wasn't wrong when he said only 200,000 men over. here. That statement ofhis sure caused a lot ofexcitement among the men ... the ·big guns" in politics that is! The radio this AM said the 2nd division and the 5th Marine divsions are slated for occupation in Japan. That's 40,000 men right there and Tm sure the Army has enough men over here to make up the balance. Damn, I wish I knew just what was going to happen ... and when! I really want that "contest" picture ofyours-but I'm afraid I might be transferred soon so just keep it until Lm sure where I'll be? You haven't told me what the contest was but that you won$5OO! Tm SO anxious to know ... a beauty contest or what? Come on, Jani&, tell me!!!" They just played ·Laura"on some station. That piece gets me. There's something mystical about the melody, and I get chills every time I hear it. Did you see the movie ·Laura"? Well, like the guy in the movie, I too fell in love with a picture ... a picture ofyou. I guess that's why I love that piece so. Did you know that "way back" when Jack and I were at Camp Pendleton, that when he showed me your picture then, I seemed to know you, altho we'd never met. Well, Darling time grows short and they are about to douse the lights, so I'll secure this... Keep loving me, as I do you, always. All my love, Your Stan. " ' " !!P .. Ma,rthajane Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd. Saranac, MI 48881 If �11-14-45 ..... HDarling Janie: I received a vel)' sweet letter from you and I was so glad to hear from you. Apparently our mail from all of October and a lot of November has been delayed because the Army won't carl)' Navy mail! So you probably have received some ofyour letters to me back to you! No, I haven't received the letters with the photos and clippingsin them and it makes me so GD mad because I want them so much! Honey, Tve been watching the LihLmagazines weekly but so far your picture has not been on the cover!... Janie, I was never so sure of anything in my life as I am of the fact that I am the closest thing to being in love with you. I realized that before and was sure of that when I missedyour letters so much! I want you to know that I could love you vel)' much and all I need is to get back there and ifit isn't pretty soon, I'/Igo crazy just wantingyou! Whatever it ts, it has me going around in square circles/ I don't know why ... (my girl) wrote me but if it's for the reason you wrote (like she wanted him back?) ... well that's tough 'cause I wouldn't have anything to do with her if she were knee deep in Hell. If she's crawling~ she's crawlingin the wrong directionl" Jame, no one could ever be more faithful to me tnltn you ... when you wrote ·Semper Fidelis" at the end ofyour letter you described yourselfperfectly. I don't think there ever could be anyone more faithful to a guy than yourself, and if it should happen that someday you should love me, I'd consider myself the luckiestguy in the world. If, as you've written before Tm the onlyguy you couldget serious over at this time, I wouldn't care how many swobbies; Marines or Doggies you went out with as long as you stJ11 felt the same about mel Because even tho I've never seen you or felt your love, r m content to forget any woman over here. I don't believe in this lying and pretending .. I had enough of that with my 'last romance.' Maybe people can't fall in love thru letters, but I believe I have. I have told you I lovedyou as it seems it was written because I wanted to love you so much. It seemed like I not only felt your thoughts thru letters. but also thru some strong~ unexplainable force. Some power tl]llt only two people in love can feel and utilize. Well Janie I'm up to page 11 and running out ofstationery. Please tell me you feel the same about me and that you love me. Those things I long to hear I love you, Janie. Allmy love, Your Stan H p.. �11-24-45.... -HiHoney: I just finished developing and printing some pictures which I'm enclosing. I'm just learning, so bear with me! I know you said your "darkroom technique wasgreat .... Wow! (OK, so that's not what you meantl) Anyway, here they are..... So, you liked my song I wrote? I love to write lyrics and wish I could do that all my life. I'll sing it to you softly some night when we are together. ..... I remember you saying in one ofyour last two letters that you 'tried to make me happy' and Janie, you have. Since I've been writing you Tve been a different person. We've helped each other out so much. We helped each other to forget the kicks in the face we got. Fl! always think the world ofyou for making me forget all of it. You brought me out of a nasty rut, and made me sure that life was worth livingagain. But my trouble was nothing; you lost your love and he'll never be able to live again. I'm sorry for writing that, but you see, when you said that I made you laugh andbe happy againI feel that I have done something God would want done. And I wanted so much for you to smlle and live again; what's happened in the past has happened and it can't begone over like a play. Andyou must look for happiness in the future. That's a cold way ofsaying it, Darling, but it's God's will, I'm sure. So let's look to the future Janie and try our best to be happy andmake our friendship a lovely Godsend -I want to continue loving you with All my love, Stan H H H ' .. 1-2-46 ... -My Darling Rosebud... After about a week I finally received a letter from you and it was so good to hear from you. My morale lifted 100% when I saw your letter! Christmas on Oahu was not verygood ... no Christmas tree, lights, not even a rain to make it feel like "home.' .... It really tickles me how you write 'Hubba Hubba'in your letters. I really laughed over that. I like that characteristic about you so much ... that you're funny. Oh, Honey we'llhave so much fun together. You'rejust the kind ofgirl I like, with a sense of humor. I love to laugh and have a good time and when Tm in the proper place at the proper time I like to be serious and be loved..... I know exactly how you felt on Christmas Eve. I felt like bustin' out crying myself when the choir sang carols in our chapel here. I think they're beautiful It touched me deeply, Darling, when you said you prayed for my return and makes me love you so much more, if that's at all possibte. When you say things like that I get kinda warm all over and I feel so close to you. You'll never know how much those little things mean to me. I guess it's the little things that keep a true love aglow. Agreed? Time for some winks, so rll say: I love you, I love you, I love you, Please write me lots ofsweet letters. All my love, Stan' . Marth.!ajane Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd. .• . . Saranac, MI 48881 �Note: (from JK) This is page 13-A .... I got interrupted and didn't start back where I left off! 12-23-45 .... uHi Darling: Got a letter from you about 30 minutes ago. At present I'm down at the Navy Yard where I work I was asleep before we came down and someone woke me up and threw your letter at me, which when I saw who it was from, made me happy. All day long I wanted to hear from you! Tm still chuckling from reading that letter! I got a big honk out of it Honey. But before I go into that I want to congratulate you on the contest, knowing now what kind if was, but you won the "hps"contest with me the first time I saw your picture, in fact the most beautiful lips I have ever had the pleasure of drooling over.! The snow and winter scene you describe and the atmosphere sounds wonderful I sure miss the snow and cold weather. Christmas isn't real with me unless there's snow. As far as the "half-sleepy"peaceful evening, I do know what you mean! It's the kind of feeling you-get after you've been out skating . or tobogganing and then you come in out of the cold and snow and settle around the fireplace. Mmmmm, I do know what you mean, Darling. Yeh, just try'n wash my face with snow!! Til trim yer ears! (The rest of the letter contained a questionnaire we both had given our answers to ..... way too long (8 pages) to copy here.....JK) Well, I'd better close and look around for some work to do before they make me a "private"again! 'Bye love, and write often. I love you dearly. Yours always, Stan" �12-15-45.... Darling Janie: I have to go to chow soon and to work as I have the midnight shift. But I just finished reading three letters from you and it was so good to hear from you. Before I go any further I'll tell you I also received the registered letter from you with the LD. bracelet enclosed and I think it's swell It couldn't have been a more perfectgift, Darling, but you shouldn't have done it! Thank you so much, Janie. I can't repay you with a gift before Christmas but I'll be sure to make up for it later. It was so sweet ofyou to send me something. I wish I could kiss you for it and I will" someday!! Thanks again. (More problems with the USMCmail reaching the troops ... Army problem again!) .....Honey, I'm sorry you have strep throat and please keep special care ofyourself... for me. 1-8-46 ....Hi sweet ... here I am again, Rosebud. There's some sweet music floating thru the tents right now and it makes me in the mood for a kiss from you ... maybe more than one! Say, Honey, do you have any 'Tabu' perfume right now? If so wouldyou please put a drop of it on your next letter? I love the smell of it. (note from JK: not on your life, that wasyour girl's favorite!) I didn'tget to write you last night as we have a whole different schedule now... on 8 hours, off 8 hours, on again, each week until we have worked all shifts. I do lose a little sleep ~ it's impossible to sleep in the daytime here. The latest news here is that I might not be able to come back until late July or August, Janie. It's a long time to ask you to wait for me, but it wouldmean everything to me ifyou could. You'll never have to worry about me and girls over here. I just don't fool around with women. I never was the type to chase after them anyway. I can very easily wait until I have you to love. To me, you are worth waiting for, for years if necessary. Me again.... 'Tis nowgoing on 0700 and boy, am I tired. I don't think Tl! eat chow this morning... guess rll just hit the sack and sleep and sleep and when I'm tired of that I'll start over. Gottaget my mosquito net up, so I'll be closin' here Honey. All my love, Your Stan" �1-11-46 .... My Rosebud: I just received 14 letters from you and it was so good to hear from you finally! I am in myglory when I readyour sweet letters and I've read each and every one at least 3 times!.... About the tinted (contest) picture honey, please send it to me here if you can. I want to have it with me. Tm going to hang it up here and show you off! And, I think I'll write 'Stan's girl' right underneath it! Yes, send it to me, Honey, please!!....Now, the perfume!!!!!!! Marthajane. do you realize you almost caused a revolution here in the barracks with that elegant odor? When they brought the mail in, I knew I had a letter from you! Everyone wanted to sniffmy letter and then they'd drool! That's really a fine perfume and I love it. You said it was Tntoxication'??? You'll probably smell it on this letter too as I put the little piece of cotton in my stationery box. When I smell something like that I just want to cuddle up to it. You'll find out I really go for perfumes, Darling! Tm getting sleepy so I'll close for now but I'll say, I love you, oh so much and want to be near you terribly, so be good and wait faithfully for me and someday soon I hope to give you...... All my Love, Your Stan" (note from JK...above letter I hadgiven him advice about his camera problem and he was happy to know how to fix it.llj 1-11-46.....Hi there Rosebud: Pm down at the offi~ ....I forgot to mention in my letter last night that I received the pictures you sent. I like each one very much. They're very nice pictures ofyou. Youseem to be more beautiful in every picture you send, and Tm wondering if I deserve such a gorgeous creature? I have both of them right under my stationery box so I'll pull you out now and drool over you! Did you know that your hair is something out of this world? It's beautifuL.. There, that's done ... I finally got this messed up Zippo lighter to work (Note from JK: I bought Stan a beautiful Ronson lighter, which he dearly wanted. I told him about it but we decided to wait until he came home to give it to hlm.) Marthajane Kirby' • ... 8468 MacArthur Rd. . Saranac, MI 48881 �1-13-46 ...Hello my Darling: I have a few minutes before the lightsgo out so I'll drop you a line or two then Til write you again tonite at the office, if there's not too much work ..... There's something I want to talk about before anything else, and that is about when Til be coming back., You see, I only have 32 points which isn't a lot. Well, anyway I saw some orders the other day ....but here's the point -- I'm pretty sure ofbeing eligible to come back the 1st of A1f¢. Being eligible then Td probably be back sometime in June, if this plan takes effect. And Darling, June isn't too far away. To DH:.just the thought of being sure ofgoing home in a few months kinda makes my heart flutter andgives me something to look forward to..... not only you and us, but home and my family again. I know it seems long to you because your life as far as routine hasn't changed much ....I know you understand because you love me, and I know we see things thru the same eyes ....My only worry is you, Janie..... you've got to wait for me and notget involved with anyone else. If you were to find someone else I would feel that I'd have been robbed of someone that might have been meant to be my wife someday.... and then Fd feel that there was just no medium in faith and courage. Tm sure you understandhow I feel I guess it's just another way ofsaying I love you so darn much and needyou even more. Well, Darling, time for lights out ....I love you, Janie ~ -------- Please don't ever leave me, Janie. " --- Your Stan 1-18-46 Just came back from the movie I just received a beautiful letter from you and it made me feel so good. It was so darn sweet where you wrote about staying home alone while it snowed and playingyour records while you were writing me and thinking ofme so much. It was written so beautifully Darling that if I had any tears in me I wouldhave shed them over your sweetness. But right nowTve got to get some sleep ... back later, Honey. I lied to you, Honey! I didn't really sleep at all like I said I planned to. I couldn't ... I kept thinking ofyou in a way I never expected to. Thingsand places raced thru my mind like wildfire and I don't quite understand it. I felt shaky and alert, just like times on Iwo when I was so mixed up with fear and anxiety and ignorance of what wouldhappen that I wanted to get out of my foxhole and run, and never stop. Td better stop crying on your shoulder ... let's see, where were we . �1-18-46 .... later, at the office ..... "Sometimes I just sit and stare at your pictures and sortaget a lump in my throat when I think ·she's mygirl" .., She waits for me and no one else. She may step out once in awhile with a friend, but her heart belongs to me. " About the grass skirt ... I can buy one for you ifyou promise you willsend me the pictures when they are finished! Don't worry about paying me for it Honey; I can afford it. I want to give you all the help you need with your modeling career you have your heart set on. You are so beautiful, Janie I never tire oflookingat you." .....AIImy love, Your Stan. p.5. Is Dan (photographer) married????" 2-2-46 ....Receivedanother letter from you. Yes, I thought about that -­ about writing to you for a year. III bet I thought ofit before you did .., when the new year started I knew that along with January came something I'll never forget ...when I started writing to you. We'll call it our "Postal Anniversary" Darling! Til bet very few people ever had one! Well, we have, so on "oor anniversary" III say in the past year you have brought me dreams of happiness that I needed badly and I'll remember it the rest ofmy life. " We'llbe together soon Darling and we willlive a lifetime in that first few weeks and if things work out we'llspend the rest of our lives together. " 2-5-46 .... (The funnies) jk .....Hi there Rosebud! Smitty just came in and wants to write a few lines to you. 'Stanley is proving to be somewhat of a problem in the barracks. He has a beautiful young siren's picture displayed in a rather unique way. We didn't mind the neon lights around it which are lit all night and so is Stanley, but when he put in the whistle, which blows on the hour, that is too much! As it is we could have done without the whistle as there is enough of that done by the wolves in the barracks, of which I'm proud to say that I'm not! Wipe that sneer offyour face. ,It ••••••• Smitty 2-8-46 "Hi Rosebud: Tm so tired I can hardly see straight. These all nite shifts are killin'me! Yesterday I sent you a Valentine (flowers with a card from a HI floristl--and a Valentine card from Stan:::(Whenever I hear beautiful music I just lean back and pretend I am with you, in your arms. I never knew dreaming could be so consoling. I stillpinch myself when I look at your picture to see if Tm dreaming. I can hardly believe I could have someone like you ... it's an act ofGoel, I believe, Darling. Write and tell me you love me lots of times. " AIImy love, Stan" • Marthajane Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd. Saranac, MI 48881 �2-28-46 ..... Viis letter refers to the movie "Love Letters" ... and is 12 pages long so I'll condense it for now. "My Darling Janie: I'm down at the office now and I'm going to write you from here. Before I came on duty I saw "Love Letters".... I thought it was a wonderful movie and as you wanted me to, I paidparticular attention to the plot, scheme, etc. You know, Darling, even tho our case isn't a whole lot like the movie, still it seems to me there is a similarity here and there. Especially the idea of falling in love with a person thru letters. I've fallen in love with you in such a way, not to mention the fact that I fell in love with your picture long ago, before you'd realize. But you know, this movie, "Love Letters" holds a lot of food for thought. I've thought ofyou constantly since the show was over. It made me think of the suffering, mentally tid f' physically that you've had to go thru, since you know when ... it made me think of a lot of little things that must have tortured you, that I never thought about before and when I think of all these things, I can't help but admire you for your braveness and courage and stamina, and self-control I guess that's part of why I love you so ... the remaining reasons why I love y'/J so are hard to explain... Like you say, I believe there is something stronger than either of us, pulling us together, closer and closer. I thought once I knew the theory oflove, but this love we have fQr each other is real love. It's strong and deep and beautiful -- it's everything life is --- gay, romantic, tender, and in me, it seems to be inrooted -- part of my very soul I never want it to change, Janie, ever. I want it to continue endlessly, into eternity. Please help it be this way always. Pulling together, for each other, we can't lose and we have all the happiness andgoodness in the world to gain.....I can see nothing but happiness ahead for us, Janie. I love you much, Janie you won't realize how much until I can show you without words. I can hardly wait until that moment when I can press your lips to mine, over and over then you'llknow. Don't you forget Tm to be the first young man to caress those famous lips ofyours! Please! It's been 16 months since Tve kissed a girl and the first time you kiss me I'l/go up higher than a kiter All my love, Your Stan. 3-10-46 ... ·My Darling ....I received 3 wonderful letter from you and twelve beautifulpictures and they make me love you and want you so! You're really gorgeous in the grass skirt and luscious too! Can I have you for Christmas? Please!!! I love them all and Tm going to tack them up all around my sack so you can surround me. What a wonderful idea! Thaakyou so much, Honey. So, /...ikmagazine has the neg of the contest winner photo ofyou? �,... Be sure to let me know, Darling, if and when it appears in the magazine. I can hardly wait to see it!... Gotta go. All my love, Your StanN 3-12-46 ....Hey, Shorty! I love you. Today I received another sweet letter from you! I Ike the two pictures of the flowers ve", much, Honey. You are a fine photographer! (Valentine pictures of the flowers)... "About love Letters'.... it was sort of an education to me too, in a way: I know how you feel about not having anyone around that understands how you feel sometimes. .... You asked what particular things made me 'think' ... well, that picture even tho it was just a movie makes me sure now that it's possible to fall deeply in love thru letters. Of course, I fell in love with your picture, primarily. I remember the large coloredpicture you sent Jack, distinctly, because even then, when I first saw you, there was something about you that struck me mysteriously. .... I love you, Janie. All my love, Your Stan H --- +++++ 5-15-46 My Darling, Hello, Janie. Geez, I could hardly wait to write you tonight ... I love you so much. I received a ver, nice letter from you today which completed my day: Everything has progressedperfectly for me today! In the first place Tm leaving this damn camp Monday, the 20th. I was informed officially this afternoon. Thre is no 'probably: 'if' or 'maybe' about this! This is it and rve waited for a long time for this, and it's finally .taking shape. It all means rll be with you soon, and that means everything to me, Darling. Tm so happy I could bust! The only thing that matters to me is we'll be together soon now. Oh, Honey, Tm so anxious to hold you in my arms and tell you how much I love you. Finallyall our dreams are slowly coming true. It has been a long time, Janie but eve", second of it was well worth waiting, 'cuz I have sau. to come home to! Ive thought about you all day, Darling... and it was so pleasant. We have so much to be thankful for, I think ... I know, rm ve", lucky that I have a swellgirl like you to be coming back to. Not eve",guy has it that way. You make me terribly happy --- just think if you can make me feel this way jUst thru letters, why, rll probably bust out cryin' with joy when Fm with you. Yes Darling Tm sure this is really love. I seem to miss you and want you so ... I think ofyou constantly. Yes, Janie, this is real AII my love, Your StanN • •. Marthajane Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd. Saranac, MI 48881 ."l �3-18-46 .... Hi Hon, this is the third time I've written you today but I received the tinted picture and the other two at this evening's moil call, so I hod to write and tell you how much I liked them, especially the tinted one, and also that I hod received them. Darling, that tinted one is out of this world!I love it! I think you performed a beautiful bit of tinting on it. It's wonderful and Tm going to get a real nice frame to put it in, one of those with silver around the edge you'lllike being surrounded by silver I know! I also liked the party pictures everyone looked like they were having such fun. And you, you must have hod a -laughing jog" on! In both snaps you were beaming just as bright as could be! Ha! You must be a lot of fun and I can hardly wait to see you. Do you laugh terribly easy? I donit mean are you silly, but more, a good sense ofhumor? Geez. I can't get over that tinted picture! I sure like it. Thanks so much for sendingit. I'llgive you a 'special kiss' for sending it; a little thing I cooked up myself! I'm sure you'lllike it ... very original!! Every time I look at that picture, I think ahead to the time when we'llbe together, and I keep thinking, -Ifshe looks up at me, like in the picture, I'll kiss her every time 'cuz she's so beautiful" Plan to do that willyou Honey?... I found out today that when I get out of this lash-up, I'll rate four full years of college. I wont to toke the full four years ifI can keep mygrades up. Which brings up a problem cOl1&erning us which I want to talk with you about at some later dote, if we click together. Tm sure you understand. Well, my Darling, I only have 2 stomps with me and it'll toke both of those and maybe more to moil this, so Tl! be ctosin'.... Hope I see you soon, Honey, be good and love me lots. Bye .... Your Stan" �•• V 5-19-46 ..... My Darling Janie ... Well, Honey, time isgrowing short and by this time next week I should have my feet on Californiasoil. I'll be thrilled then, but not half as much as I willbe when I kiss you at the station. Til be walking on clouds after yourgreen eyes have cast their spell on me! Mmmm, just to write about it tortures me to the soul, and I'm not kidding either! .....Darling, I want to see you so badly it'sgetting me down. All I seem to be capable of is thinking of you all day long. I see your face before me, I see you smiling and laughing. I dream all kinds of dreams about us, the fun we'llhave and the love we'llshare. We just can't lose, Honey 'cause there seems to be a strong bondbetween us. We think the same, react the same. We see things thru the same eyes. I needyou terribly Janie ...having you would complete all I ever hoped for. I love you so much that it almost worries me. I never dreamed I could want someone so badly, that I've never actually met. Well, honey, soon we'llbe together, thank God. Remember 'til then I'm Your Stan ... I love you, I needyou, I want to hold you in my arms. All my love, Your StanN From Janie: This completes a lot of letters from S1'on, and these were my most precious. During the Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter of 1945 Stan wrote me almost daily and since that means more than 100 more, I can't type them all. This gives the reader a positive image of our love, which endured for more than 57 years. The Hand of God ... all those long long months of waiting for each other. ++++++ • There is one remaining sad fact from Jack. His Mother had saved all the letters I wrote to him (and I have no idea why she did this) and gave them to my Father, and ended up with us later on. (Stan and I after we were married.) One letter I wrote him before he went into combat was a sorta pep-talk, assuring him that I loved him and his Mom and Sister loved him too and we would be praying every day for his safety. This letter, all beat up, stained, bent, almost illegible writing of mine on the envelope, was found in his helmet when he died. I wish I had never seen it. He was only 18 when he gave his life for his country. "Semper Fi, NJack Mj Mar~hajane • Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd Saranac, MI 48881 . �II Mr. Stanley Kirby 8468 Macarthur Rd. Saranac, MI 48881-9517 MILITARY STATS 2-16-46..... "The Marine Corps point drop" .....Dearest Janie: I'm so exhausted I can hardly keep my eyes open.... "undoubtedly you read about the recent Marine Corps point drop, to 42! Damn decent of them. At such a rate I'll never get back. It all puts me in a nasty mood ---it just blasts hell out of my hopes of being home in May. No telling now, just exactly when I'll be back. Yes, you're right, it is very disappointing. Oh well, rough! As it is all over." "Well honey, can't think of anything t-write about, Darling, even if! were in the mood, so I'll secure this. I still love you..will always be ... Your Stan" 2-21-46 "Hi Rosebud: Yes, the machine 1 used was a code machine usedfor copying code by radio. 1 will probably write you on it occasionally as sometimes 1 don't have stationery down here. Yes, I know how you feel about the Marine demobilization and you're right, I can't stand it, but I can't do a damn thing about it, Honey. I doubt if that 'protest' they put up here willeverget to Truman. Three. of the fellas's that planned it were 'busted' and put in the brig. Busted from sergeants to privates -- quite a drop. A guy doe~'t dare open his mouth about it (the discharge program) anymore -- and still they insist we're living in a democracy. It's really quite funny. (And Tm glad I'm not involved in any way) The sooner I'm out of this lash-up the happier Til be, in more than one way At least Til be able to call my life my own again. Til close here Darling and write later tonite from work With all my love, Your Stan" ++++++ -Godand Faith " . 6-23-45 .... Darling: Got two swell letters from you. Yes, I have the larger pictures ofyou that you sent recently. Tm admiring them right now ... I wouldn't trade you for anyone! I do know what you mean about faith and God, Darling, and it's a wonderful thing to have faith in God, but sometimes fate doesn't worry about God . You'drealize more clearly what I mean ifyou ever sawguys killed, like I have, and had faith in God, and never harmed another person physically or mentally in their life and where are they now? �"If anything ever happened to me I'd want you to love and be loved by someone, Td want some person as wonderful as you to realize jUst how wonderful you are. Janie, life is what a person makes of it, and no matter how tough the road may be with deaths and disappointments, always strive to make the grade. I guess I'm writing all this because I1JI1L in love with you and I know it sounds mixed up but please try to understand me. Maybe r m different but it's just the way I am.... Please think over what rve written and tell me what you think~ all over again? Goodnite Honey and take care of you. All my love, Stan" 7-22-45 .... "Darling Janie: I have a few minutes before going to work so I'll write a few lines. Did you read about the Navy discharge plan in the paper? It's really quite a system. Basically it's for 'thinning out' the older men, but that's OK, but those 'older men'probably never saw combat, and what about these guys that have seen four or five battles. and have been over here for 16 to 25 months, they can't raise enough points to prick a balloonl.... Damn/ I wish this #%$% war was over so I couldgo back and live a civilized life~ like any normal human being deserves Enough of this!" Say, did you everget that Fourth Divisionpatch sewn on your headscarf? I'm anxious to see it on you .... soon! Take realgorJdcare ofyou andbe careful of the sailors and soldiers! Write soon Honey." All my love, Your Stan" A ++++++ 'VJDAYFOR THEMARINES I!! 8-15-45 ....Hi there Honey. You should feel fine and happy cause the war is over and I know you do. rm really happy, I guess you know. What a day yesterday was. I was just coming in from liberty when the news broke and it was raining like mad. My morale was low, having to walk in the rain with my clean khaki on but when I heard the good news I didn't care if it was raining pies! I listened to some broadcasts from the States from some of the cities and I guess you people really raised hell back there/ Well, rll be home sooner than I expected. Which won't be next week or next month Tm sore, but at least I don't have to worry aboutgetting knocked offanymore. I want so much to be with you, Darling~ and to love you. I wish I couldhave been with you yesterday or vice-versa, as long as we were together. We could have celebrated together and torn K.c. apart! �. Mr. Stanley Kirby ..... 8468 Macarthur Rd. .:.. Saranac, M' .....'-9517 • 8-15-45 ... continued.... Well, Tm going to church ... believe it or not! I figure I have plenty to be thankful for, Darling. Were havinga parade here today --- one battalion ofMarines participating. They are going to present the 'Battle Streamers' to the Division and units therein will fly their respective colors. It willprobably be quite an affair. I suppose you will.have a big parade there too. (In KC it was a HUGEparade on August 14, the VJ day in the States, but with the Marines their celebration was the date of this letter.) JK I wish I couldsee the smile on your face now. Smile for me!! Thanks! Janie, go ahead and open that little package I sent you and don't wait for your birthday after all! Just think of me and how much I love you. All my love, Your Stan (In a book about the Fourth Division in WW2, by Carl W. Proehl,re- printed by Nashville Press, (1988) this celebration is mentioned on page 121.) --JK It 9i-45 ... -My Darling: Well, today is V-J Day for me and the rest of the Fourth. However there's not much to say about it except we have the whole day "off" to do what we want. I slept 'til noon, had chow and slept again this afternoon! This morning I met up with a guy from.~nsas City and he told me all about the big city! He said he didn't know you, but wished he did! I was surprised, given your popularity with your modeling career! I'm glad he didn't know you ...you are mine, remember? Ha. All my love, Your Stan" ******* This ends my letters from Stan ... those I could share anyway. ************** "Some people work an entire life and wonder if they made a difference in the world.!" MARINES DON'T HAVE THAT PROBLEM! SemperFi Love forever, Stan ... Your Janie . •• Mart~ajane Kirby' 8468 MacArthur Rd. Saranac, MI 48881 , �-----r--­ ( M. Farrington 1483 East 76th Karis s s' City, Mo. VIA AIR MAIL �,r t~ '~ . ~ ) ~~t.•~.~.' ~~.i :ktt~. t l ~ 1.r o ~'"<, ~ t . . ~. j~t t " f ~..:c . ~ ,~ t ~ b ~ . .... ·.·'.. . i . "* ,~ 0""_ .~~ ~,~ ~ ~ r . t ~" \-L"{ '~ r_~' ~ ~ t ~ f' r'" &~l.~~,,~;':;" ~l y,~,.,,+ ,,'~;iQ~ / ����, ... 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" , ~ ' ' ;J , .•. , • , 1:: �~ ~ I • , J '. -. o ;".A..~ V ~-G'<- ~. ~~~~ ./ I' .....,.?--L-~. ~ ~ / .4 --e ~tZ.- ~~~ .... ­ ��'.r p My Darling Martlla: If I don't come backfrom my tour ofduty I wam you to marry someone who will love you as much as I do; who will take care ofyou like I would; would laugh wltb you like I have; will comfort you like I would; would enjoy life wlth' you /ike I wanted to •.•.....•.... Please remember me always ......I love youl Jack Wesley Layton June 17, 1944 (From my Diary. June 17. 1944 Martbajane Farrington (1-1r.;" ( f~ t Co 2{) ~'f ~ fl PS I 11 - r: w, �"CHRISTMAS, G.I., 1945" TIS' A MONTH BEFORE CHRISTMAS AND ALL THROUGH· THE SERVICE NOT A DAMN MAN IS MOVING AND WE'RE ALL GETTING NERVOUS GREAT PLANS AND NEW SYSTEMS ARE DEVISED EVERY DAY RELEASING THREE MEN: MAKING TWO MILLION STAY. FOR GEORGIE THE "MARSHALL" WITH HIS NAUTICAL MATE ARE DEFENDING "PEARL HARBOR" JUST FOUR YEARS TOO LATE OUR HEADQUARTERS HERE IS NO LONGER LONELY FOR THE "PINEAPPLE PENTAGON" HAS STANDING ROOM ONLY. MACARTHUR THE MIGHTY GREW PURPLE WITH WRATH SCREAMED HE, GENERAL, THEY'RE MOVING TOO FAST THERE MUST BE SOME WAY TO MAKE MOST OF THEM STAY SO GOD WITH FIVE STARS TOOK OUR SHIPPING AWAY. FOR A WHILE PUBLIC PROTESTS WERE GETTING TOO LOUD SO THE POWERS TOOK ACTION TO QUIET THE CROWD SAID A GENERAL (THEN A COLONEL) ,WHY, WHAT COULD BE FINER THAN TO START JUST A TINY REBELLION IN CHINA. OF COURSE THEY HAVE REASONS TO KEEP US ALL HERE FOR AS LONG AS WE STAY THEY WON'T HAVE TO FEAR THAT THEY'LL LOSE ONE OR TWO OF THEIR SO PRECIOUS STARS OR THEIR EAGLES AND OAK LEAVES REVERT TO GOLD BARS. NOW JOE DOAKES, THE WELDER, IS FILLED WITH DELIGHT FOR JOE'S TWENTY-SIX AND "TOO OLD TO FIGHT" THUS TO DRAfT THIS OLD MAN WOULD BE QUITE A CRIME SO HE MARCHES ALL DAY IN A LONG PICKET LINE. OUR TONY PASOOTA HAS JUMPED ON A PLANE (TONY PLAYS FOOTBALL AND HAS A BIG NAME) BUT POOR BROWN, THE PRIVATE, WILL JUST HAVE TO WAIT HE'S ONLY A FATHER AND CAN'T DRAW A GATE. • Mr. Stanley Kirby . -. 8468 MacArthur Rd. ... Saranac, MI 48881-9517 �FOR ALL GOOD LITTLE OFFICERS WHO POLISH THEIR BARS SANTA'S NOT WEARING WHISKERS, BUT THREE SILVER STARS, THE RECRUITS ARE SCREAMING LET US GO AND FIGHT AND TO ALL WHO WILL LISTEN, I SAY BARNUM WAS RIGHT. USMC Base, Oahu, Hawaii PFC Stanley D. Kirby Base Comm, Signal Bn FMF PAC c/o FPO San Francisco, California December 24, 1945 IJ f .. Mr. Stanley Kirby 8468 MacArthur Rd. . Saranac, MI 48881-9517 �)---/f-~ d- ~/ ~~p-O~~ ~.,£/r·~·/ ~ ~ ~ ~ . ~~~~~~~r ~.~~~~q -: ~~~~~.~~~ ~r~~~~~'/ ~~y~~~~ ~~~.~/;:t3~~~ / ~ ~ ocf}~r' ~J7~ ~~~~~/~~~. ~~~~.c:LJ~s. ~ tY '7~~. y~~~.L~ ~~~./~57~~ ~~~~~~/ ~ r" ~~~a-L~ /~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~J?~/ ~ .s«: ~ . -91/ N~~~~~~// ~/~~~r~/ ~~~ ~ /7~~~ ." (~~ ~~-~7a:: / ,s/.') �Marthaj ane (nee Farrington) Kirby October 1945 Winner, second place: $500 for "Loveliest Lips in the Land " Ju dge: Gary Cooper, Actor Contest by Clara Har r is Cosmetics ��Mr. Stanley Kirby 8468 Macarthur Rd. Saranac Ml 48881-9517 .~ Service Rerileritbrances - World War II Stanley D. Kirby Private First Class I Co;e. p()~ IIL- 11C6 Headquarters Company 3rd BattalioQ,~24th Marines Fourth Marine Division (United States Marine Corps Reserve) . The War had already been going for two or three years when the Marines and Stanley got hooked up. Both of my older brothers were in the Air Force and I entertained the thought of also being a "fly-boy"! Things were not to be that way however, as I was turned down by both the Army Air Corps and the Naval Air Service. Strangely enough, for conflicting reasons: I passed the Army mental test (Detroit) and flunked the "physical" as the person said I needed two or three teeth filled. I immediately went to the Navy Air Corps headquarters and applied - there I was told I passed the physical but flunked the mental test. So, in disappointment, I said to me, "ta hell with you guys, I'll go home and wait to be drafted." That was in the fall of 1943 (I believe). In April of 1944 I received my call to duty and asked to serve in the Navy. They said "fine" and put me in a room with some others. Shortly a guy came and asked us all to stand, With a very deliberate finger he pointed to a few guys, including me, and stated, "okay, you guys are going into the Marines". That's how the whole thing started. We left immediately for San Diego, California (Marine Base) and I never even made it back to Lansing. So I called home and told "Mom" - she was concerned but not shaken. I can't recall, but I'm sure I was anxious and apprehensive about the new adventure but then so were the other guys - so I had company. The Marine base in San Diego was vast, with a tremendous parade and training area - (asphalt) and scads of barracks and little buildings. As I recall the arrival was shortly after lunch and the first thing we did was to shed the "civies" and don the Marine garb, including those lovely field shoes which were stiff as a board when new. About this time we were getting accustomed to being ordered around and it was somewhat annoying, but it would have been more annoying if orders weren't followed. o The real initiation into "Marine ways" (especially recruits) came at dinner time­ from here on in to be known as "Chow" time. With the issued mess kit firmly in hand we were standing in line when a less than gorgeous Sergeant came dashing around yelling: ­ "You stupid people keep yourself in line for the Chow hall ..." "You guys are no-bodys and don't forget it - we are going to make 1 �Service Remembrances - World War IT somebody out of you if you're gutsy enuf..." "You are nothing, zilch, no body, but we will make something of you..: etc., etc..." This was difficult to swallow but since there were 50 or 60 other guys in the same boat it was livable. Our frame of mine ("attitude") was being structured and somehow I felt it would all work out O.K. "Boot" training was 90 days and it was a pre-determined combination of physical exercise and mental re-building. Our battalion was invited to march in the 4th of July parade in Los Angeles. This was one ofthe proudest times of my life. Our parade uniform was summer khakis, dress shirt, tie, leggings, cartridge belt (with canteen and sulfa packet) and overseas cap, instead of helmet. Our platoon was really snappy and heels were hitting the pavement with extreme precision. People were six to eight deep on the sidewalks and they were clapping, yelling and screaming beautiful things. At that moment I felt a bonding with the populous that was indescribable. What a super experience. The "boot-camp" experience was a real neat thing. Yes, lots of physical exercise, mental exercise and sore muscles. But, in looking back I guess I enjoyed it in a way. I accept the fact now that I am a "team player" - with great satisfaction in being part of a group where all are reaching for the same goals. The bonding and camaraderie were extremely enjoyable and character building. Everything-was structured and precisely scheduled. up @ 5:45, breakfast ("chow") at 6"15, calisthenics @ 8:00, 7 a.m. to 8 a.m. was shave, shower, clean up time - check gear and clean rifle. Calisthenics were generally 45 minutes to one hour. The first few weeks always had "close-order drill" in the schedule, 40-50 men in three columns learning to march as one. And we did. Boot camp was basically 90 days and I know that after the first few weeks I was beginning to feel super - mentally and physically - vibrant, alive, responsive. The aim of the U.S.M.C. One ofthe guys in our platoon was a German-Polish person from New Jersey. He turned 36 years old shortly after being in the Marines. At this stage of the war in 1945 they were still drafting men up to the age of 36, (but not over 36). He came to me one day and said, "I've told these people (superiors) that my shoes don't fit but they won't do anything about it." Three or four days later he approached me again, removed his socks and said, "look at my feet, I can't take it anymore!" Both of his feet were coveted with blood from open blisters. I told him to get down to Sick Bay (field hospital) and get them treated. He did and I never saw him again. I'm sure they mustered him out and sent him home. () In July of 1944 our outfit boarded ship for Hawaii. Having never been on the ocean before there was some trepidation, but once underway I realized it was kinda neat. Having spent many hours on boats in inland lakes, and liking the water, I adjusted well to ocean movement. Many cases of "sea-sickness" cropped up which the Naval Corpsmen 2 .. �Service Remembrances - World War IT tended to effectively. I never got sick, but rather enjoyed the ships movements, (that is until some real rough seas, which I'll get to later.) As we neared Pearl Harbor, the sunshine and balmy breeze made one feel somewhat like they were on vacation. Nearing the isle of Oahu porpoises were threading in and out of the water about 400 or 500 feet from the ship - going along in parallel- as if to welcome us to the islands. At the Marine Base in Pearl Harbor we were further organized into our combat units and shortly thereafter boarded ship again for the island of Maui for advanced training. The bunk areas where we slept contained what we shall call "racks" - they were about 24" wide and about 6 1/2 feet long and were stacked three to four high. Steel piping, rounded at comers, with canvas stretched in middle. Not very comfortable and the space between you and the guy above or below was only about 30". The aisles were narrow and you can imagine how easily the air got stale with 100 or two men in the same compartment. \~) Since we had no lockers or anyplace we could safely stow our gear, we had to keep our limited possessions in our field pack which we secured to the end of our assigned "rack". Once, while I went to take a shower, I left my watch lying on the rack and upon returning found it stolen. However, several days later I saw it on the wrist of another Marine. I located the Officer of the Day and led him to the person and we retrieved the watch as I had positive identification. I had saved the sales slip. " " On a ship at sea is a profound experience. One seems to be surrounded with a brightness and freshness that's really impressive. Boredom, - yes there was boredom but not too much as we spent many days and hours in "class". We studied maps ofIwo lima and were advised of the terrain and important topographical features which would be encountered. We passed the island (in the middle of the Pacific) where one of the early A-Bombs was detonated - I believe it was BIKINI - and there was nothing left there but a large sand bar. We stopped at Midway for awhile and then went on to Guam. The purpose at Guam was to re-fuel for the jaunt to Iwo. It was at Guam at twilight where I witnessed a most (one-of-a-kind) unusual happening. Our ship was anchored a short distance off the island of Guam and the nearest ship to us was a submarine. It was about 200 feet off the port (left) rear of our troopship and was still in the water as we were. Since our ship was pointed mostly away from the island, we who wanted to study the submarine, were gathered at the rear of our ship along the raiL (]'"" .. ' \0.,." One of the guys said, "Hey, look!" and 10 and behold another ship was on a course to go straight behind us and heading right for the submarine. It was about 600 feet away and moving very slow - but, it kept right on coming. It was only moving about 2 or 3 3 �Service Remembrances - World War IT mph. when it passed the rear of our ship and it was quite clear there was going to be a collision. About this time the sailors aboard the sub began pouring out of the hatch and anxiously watching the approaching ship. It was obvious to them the ship was going to strike the sub so the sailors all lined up on the opposite side of the sub so when the collision arrived they would use the "bump" of the errant ship to propel them in the air and away from the sub. Well, it struck and the crewmen sort of flew through the air, landed in the wet and swam swiftly clear of the situation. By the time the ship struck the sub it was barely moving and it eased up over the top of the sub about 20 feet. When all the necessary people got their brains together they put the ship in reverse and several minutes later backed off the sub. There was no apparent serious damage except perhaps to someone's ego. All sailors returned and we learned there were no injuries. While enroute from Midway Island to Guam, aboard ship I was chosen (ordered) to do guard duty in one of the storage "holds" which were crammed with war equipment. The location I drew was the "3rd hold" - three levels below the normal "top-side" deck. You had to go down 3 narrow steep metal stairs in order to get there. Since we were on a specific battle mission "war" regulations were the order of the day - therefore I was required to wear steel helmet and carry carbine and ammunition (on cartridge belt). I was escorted to my post by the officer of the day who happened to be a fresh exponent of Marine Officers' Training. He was an impressive physical specimen. And why not --- he was fresh from playing regular Guard on U.S.C. football team! Upon being settled at my guard duty post I was adtIisedof my responsibilities by the O.D. and he disappeared up the stairway and through the hold. (no doors!). As I looked around there were heavily leafed magazines and news-papers. So, I figured that you look at the printed material while keeping your eyes and ears open. I took off my helmet and leaned my carbine up against a Jeep. In the middle of a ReadersDigest a voice from above rang out - "Attention! I" It was the O.D. (Officer ofthe Day) and the Company Sergeant. I straightened up but didn't have time to get myself in order. The O.D. said "Private Kirby, you are in gross violation ofthe Guard Duty regulations. You are out of uniform and are not in command of your post." To which I said, "Well, it looks like everyone who had guard duty here did the same thing." This didn't impress him. I was ordered to put my helmet on and shoulder my carbine. I was advised I would be replaced very shortly. Upon replacement I was lead to the Brig (jail cell). At this point I realized that all of this was not a joke or fun and games! The O.D. said upon leaving, "You will stand in front of the Commanding Officer aboard ship tomorrow to be sentenced." About this time I fully realized the error of my ways. C) The "Commanding Officer" was a Major General and the ceremony was disgustinglyshort. I was the recipient of a "Field Court Martial" and sentenced to 10 days bread and water. I could only leave the cell with an armed escort, so going to the 4 �... ~ Service Remembrances - World War II restroom I always had company. I lost ten pounds and really learned how good bread could taste. My ration three times daily: 1 glass of water and two slices of bread. Surprisingly how good bread can taste after a day or two! Fortunately, "Field Court Martials" are never put in your military records. However, I assure you the above is true. Change of pace story. After "boot-leave" and back in California - we were to go on a long hike with full field pack and battle apparel. This meant a back pack (fully stuffed with clean clothes) blanket, rifle, and poncho that weighed a good 60 pounds. The "hike" was on asphalt pavement. We were never told how far we were going - and, of course, the officers and higher NCO's rode in jeeps - After 8 miles we were all dismissed from loose formation and were allowed to rest. Two or three poor souls couldn't hack it and had to be put in following 6 x 6 trucks. After the "rest" we walked another 11 miles! (How does that grab ya!) I guess you'd have to say we were in excellent physical condition. We left Guam the following day (after "Sub" fiasco) and headed for Iwo Jima. We arrived at Iwo at night and upon getting on deck the next morning I beheld the astonishing sight of dozens of ships. There were troopships, supply ships, hospital ships, Destroyers, Cruisers, Battleships to name what I can remembe1gMost likely there were many other types also. This was astounding - amazing to a'" year old kid. This was at sunrise and firepower of the ships was bombarding the island fiercely along with light bombers and P51 Mustang fighters. What a fantastic and startling sight. Landing boats were already circling and organizing for the first wave to attack the beaches. Biggest display of fireworks I ever saw! Fire, Smoke, noise and..ilctivity. Anxiety - yes - but we were extremely well prepared mentally. There was ajob to do. Fortunately our unit wasn't scheduled to load (and go ashore) until 3 p.m. in the afternoon. When the time arrived we had to climb down a rope-mesh ladder and jump into a Landing Craft Infantry, (LCI). This was "touch and go" as the LCI was bouncing up and down due to windy conditions. It would drop away and move 2-3 feet from troopship and then rise abruptly 2-3 feet and bang against the side of the ship. It would have been easy if all we were clad in were bathing suits but with 60 lb. field pack, heavy cartridge belt and 91b. rifle it was testy. While heading for the island the silence in the LCI was head-banging. Concerned faces prevailed and as we were nearing the beach the noise was something else. Explosive sounds of all dimensions and magnitude. As the "gate" of the LCI dropped down at the beach and we bounded out we immediately noted the vast array of stalled and damaged equipment - mainly due to the volcanic sand which was like wading through 12" of marbles. Navy medics were busy tending to the wounded and here and there were lifeless Marines. Unbelievable scenes. : ~-)~."" \. ..•.. In two or three hours we were able to advance about 100 yards. The first waves of infantry were already a few hundred yards inland. Mortar fire was the order of the day 5 �I .. Service Remembrances - World War II and these explosions were all around. I must admit I was plenty scared and did some serious reading of the 23rd Psalm while being pinned down by mortar fire. It was about this time something banged against my steel helmet and bounced a few feet away - it was an empty 50 mm brass machine gun shell from the P-51's which were straffing overhead. I learned later that one of the P-51 's was piloted by a high school friend of mine. I still have the shell casing among my mementos. The heavy mortar fire continued all night long. Although we (one Sergeant, one Corporal and myself) were taking shelter in a bomb crater about 20 feet wide, we were still subject to harm in case of a direct hit. Extremely heavy mortar fire started about 10 p.m. and I got to shaking so bad the Sergeant said "It's okay kid, you're gonna be fine. " When the mortar fire died down so did my shakes. The fear tends to build up because you're in a helpless position. The next morning, - after about 2 hours sleep - I raised up and noticed a piece of shrapnel about 1" x 3" had hit the stock of my rifle and caused a gouge about 1/4" deep by 2" long. This occurred about 8" from my head. You see, I was sleeping with my rifle under my head as I lay face down in the sand. The second day we moved to a safer shell crater and it was this place of refuge where a partial bomb casing about 4" wide and 15" long lay near me no more than 2 feet away when I awoke on the 3rd day. Again I thanked the "man upstairs." -, Before I forget I want to mention an incident that happened while on route to Iwo. One bright afternoon the sailors on board decided to have some target practice. They threw overboard an empty 60 gallon oil drum and let it get about 100 yards away. Then they opened fire on it with 20mm "pom-poms". They must have used 50-75 rounds and still couldn't sink it. A Marine asked permission to fire at it. Permission was granted and in two shots he sank it. (J-"\ ~ Back to the conflict. Between the 3rd and 10th day we moved several times. The mortar fire had diminished and only rifle and machine gun fire could be heard (nearby). The forward ground forces were squeezing the enemy back successfully. At night it was necessary to form a perimeter security ring. One night, - on my 4 hour shift - I heard what sounded like a cat meowing. It would be repeated and then it sounded like another cat somewhere else nearby. I could not talk or yell at my comrades so I threw a stone at my Sergeant to wake him. I whispered carefully what I had heard. Without a word he slipped away and I continued my "watch". A few minutes later several other Marines (from somewhere!) slowly edged themselves into position nearby, facing the direction of the "meows." In the early hour of day light the following morning, the infantry men who so carefully joined me crawled carefully forward and all of a sudden all hell broke loose with grenades, machine gun and rifle fire. When the noise had ceased I crawled out of my security trench and soon saw what the commotion was all about. About 25-30 yards in front of me was a bomb crater full of dead Japs (about seven). A grizzly site - some ~ 6 Gt<.tSL f �Service Remembrances - World War II ~, ) with sides offace missing, shoulders blown off, etc. A real bloody mess. It was then I learned that these particular Japanese were infiltrators and used the cat sounds to keep track of each other as they moved through our lines. Another night while on security duty my job was to guard an area in front of me that was essentially a corridor formed by rock walls on both sides about 12 - 20' feet high. I heard footsteps which seemed to be 75-100' feet away. Since no friendly forces were to be in this "corridor" I shouted "halt, and give me the password". There was a shuflling of feet and then the sounds of running. I could just barely see the outline of the infiltrator and fired a short burst from my carbine. When I asked for the password two other Marines came up beside me and they also fired. There were no further footsteps. The rifles the Jap had is the one I now have on the wall at home. It was retrieved by the two Marines who supported me when they secured the body at daybreak. Fortunately, it is not known whose bullets brought the infiltrator down. Throughout these first few days I observed war sites one never forgets: bloated Japanese bodies, dismembered bodies and the stench was almost unbearable. Another unnerving site was the day G-2 Marines ("Intelligence" squad) were bringing a prisoner into the command post area and his dungarees were ripped clear up to his crotch - out of his left upper thigh protruded a fractured bone. He was in shock but still he was hopping along on one leg. Late in the campaign the Sergeant yelled at me one day saying "hey, Kirby you wanna see the flag go up?" He handed me his binoculajs and pointed to Mount Suribachi. Sure enough, there were five or six Marines pushing up a pole upon which was the Stars and Stripes. This scene of course became the famous photo of World War n. We were 1 or 2 miles from the mountain but got a real good view. The United States needed Iwo Jima and it's two air-strips because ifheavy bombers left their base to bomb the island of Japan it was possible they may run short of gas upon trying to return. I was lucky enough to see the first B-29 land on the captured air-strip - one landing gear inoperative and it skidded to a stop at the end of runway. Myself and several "buddies" cheered - realizing and underlining the value of what the Marines had done. In this operation I was a "runner". Responsible to run messages between command posts because to use radio or telephone would be dangerous if the information fell into enemy hands. I was part of a team of 4 - Sergeant in charge, Radio Operator Corporal, another runner and myself. We worked close with the Battalion officers to articulate necessary communications. I was trained in three different methods of Code as well as semaphore flags. C) During the final stages of the battle I recall being asked to volunteer to help string telephone wire up at the front lines. My job would be to ride on the passenger side of a Jeep and hold a spool of telephone wire and let it string out while the driver charted the 7 �Service Remembrances - World War II course. This activity wasn't part of my "M.0." - I looked at the Sergeant and he said, "you don't have to do that". So, I didn't volunteer. If! would have I would not be writing these notes. The volunteer that did go was killed and the driver badly shot in the back. Another silent prayer was called for. An interesting part of the Marine communications agenda were the Navajo "Talkers". These Native Americans had a language foreign to the Japanese and were used to talk on the portable radios for the purpose of military messages - rather than use mechanical or written codes. Although I never had the chance to sit and talk with them (they conversed in English as well) they were a congenial group even though they chose to be by themselves. As the battle of Iwo drew to a close and the din of mortars and small weapons fire diminished we Marines gained more freedom to roam and relax - and it was great when it was finally and officially announced that the island was completely secured you could hear the applause and yelling all over the island. And then, as a complete surprise, within an hour or two, all Marines were treated to a celebration drink! Not very sophisticated, but a fifth of whiskey was given to every group of men - and I mean every group of four-five. (You never read that in the paper did you!!). C) The voyage ~ to Hawaii was more enjoyable although it was sad that many of our ranks were missing. Back at Pearl Harbor we were in limbo waiting for further orders or whatever. While at Pearl (Honolulu) a friend of mine decided he wanted a car, so he had "daddy" back home send him enough money to suy a 1931 Ford (Model A). We had lots of fun with it - but one night we were riding through mid-town Honolulu and were stopped by Police for not having any tail-lights. My friend Jim, who was driving, was going to get married in a week or so he quickly talked me out of my military ill card to hand to the Officer. How stupid I was. The Officer wrote the ticket up in my name, reported it to the Marine Base and I got two weeks restriction out of the deal and had to "sign-in" at the company office every two hours - Whoops! Finally we headed for California and home. As luck would have it when we reached the mouth of San Francisco Bay I was assigned to Guard duty at the very rear of the ship. It was windy that day and the ship was rolling and pitching. As I was rising up and down (like on a merry-go-round horse!) I was studying the lovely sight ofthe Bay bridge. How nice to be back. (~) Shortly after leaving by train to come home (I think maybe around Sante Fe) my jaw began to feel tender and I developed an abscessed tooth with high temperature in addition. It got so bad entering Nebraska that I lost consciousness. Some medics on board treated me temporarily and they put me off the train at Lincoln, Nebraska where I was picked up by Jeep and taken to the Air Base there. They put me in the Sick Bay (Hospital) for a few days, lowered the fever, filled me with antibiotics and eventually pulled the bad tooth. I was treated like some war hero (or something) and it was a wonder I didn't completely blowout my ego!! Whenever I went to the mess hall they 8 �· . Service Remembrances - World War n said, "Whattaya want? - we'll fix anything you want." I enjoyed lots of steak, eggs and pie! I will always be in debt 10 a first Lieutenant who, when I mustered out, said "do yourself a big favor and go on to college, you've got the G.!. Bill to help you." I did and will always be glad I did so. Other Memories' One time while in basic training someone in our barracks said they saw our drill Sergeant playing poker in the early evening. Somehow this information got to the higher ranks and the Drill Sgt. was severely chastised. (No poker playing was allowed in training area). And, "somehow" the Drill Sgt. found out it was someone in our barracks who squealed! For punishment our entire platoon had to scrub our barracks floor with toothbrushes! Oh yes, another time I was caught with sand in my bayonet scabbard. For punishment I was forced to "dry-shave" my face (~shaved before!) Upon completion they (Company Sgt. and Cpl.) splashed my face with shaving lotion. Wow! Bum, Bum, Burn. Have been shaving ever since. () Shortly after arriving on Maui (in Hawaii) a Navajo was assigned to our Message Center squad. It was said one day that he stole someone's jacket. The following day they found his body in a nearby ravine - a knife sunk deep in ~ back. Never heard any more about it. Another weird story - while in early boot camp at San Diego we had a guy from one of the Southern U. S. states get called to the Company Office. (This was an unusual thing, during training exercises). When I saw him later in the day packing his belongings I asked what "they" wanted him for - he said, "oh, I shot a nigger back home". I asked why. He said, "Well, he was walking across the grass in front of our house." I didn't press questions any further. /'''"\ \J Another scenario - the wife of my friend who got married had a girlfriend who I dated two or three times (always platonjc). One night when I was going to her house I had to take a bus and transfer to another bus - while waiting at the transfer point - which was a rather large area with a roof over it - I was standing somewhat apart from the others (mostly native Hawaiians and Orientals) when four Hawaii guys came up to me. I would guess they were in their 20's - two got in front of me and two behind me. One of those in front of me said, "Aren't you the Marine who we saw with an 'island' girl last week?" I said, "well, yes, I dropped her off here many days ago!" The speaker said further "We don't like you Marines taking out our Hawaiian girls." At this point he was about 12" from my nose and I said "She asked me to come to her house." Obviously the message was that I should refrain from dating this girl. I repeated my case that it was she who invited me and that seemed to satisfy them. The bus arrived and I pushed my way 9 �,, Service Remembrances - World War II through them and their dirty looks. I guess I took solace in the fact that it took four of them to one of me. Personally I wasn't anxious to tussle with four husky Hawaiian boys! Shortly after wwn started both of my older brothers joined the Air Force. Bob (the older) eventually became an aircraft mechanic and received notoriety for being the first Air Corps Mechanic to actually fly with the pilot to analyze the engine problems in a P-38. Next oldest brother Don became somewhat of a special envoy who's job it was to deliver specific and classified data to command posts in various parts of the war theaters. He traveled a great deal by plane. However, in his later tenure in the Air Force he somehow got on a burial detail and spent time in Northern Africa burying bodies. This duty left a severe emotional mark on him and he never really did get over it. o Once while aboard ship I was walking around the deck and I saw a guy pounding on something with a spoon. He was sitting on the steel deck and kind of hunched over ­ holding something in his left hand and pounding it with a spoon (G.!. Issue!) in his right hand. Quizzingly I asked what he was doing. He explained he was making a ring. How? He detailed that he started with a silver dollar. First step was to drill a 1/4" hole in the center - then placing the silver piece on a 1[4" piece of steel rod and striking the edge with a spoon until it flattened out (all the way around) strangely enough the hole in the center gets bigger (to ring size) and the outside gets wider and flatter. God only knows how many strokes it takes, but the result is a neat silver band about 1/4" wide. Finishing with fine steel wool and polishing on hard surface with cloth finished the ring beautifully. Did I make one? I sure did! Between Iwo and Hawaii I made one. (Got the silver dollar from Navy finance officer!). Where is it now! Probably 200 or 300 feet out in the Pacific Ocean off the northern shore of the island of Oahu. You see, a fellow Marine and I decided to go to the beach to soak up some sun. The surf was "up" - I would say 8' - 10' waves. We didn't dare go out in surfas the undertow was terribly wicked. But, the water was cold and shrunk my ring finger a little and the ring went off into the boiling undertow sand. I did take a deep breath and raked the bottom around my feet a little but a large wave knocked me over and it took eyea' bit of my leg strength to break loose of the undertow. But I managed to stand upright and I got the heck out of that surf One day at the camp on Oahu I received a message that my brother was at the airfield at Pearl Harbor - Hickam Field. I hadn't seen him for almost 2 years and was excited to hear from him. Bob was older than I by five years and a vastly different personality. He was a lover of night life, a womanizer and had heavy bouts with alcohol ­ and as handsome as any Tom Cruise or Robert Redford. (..-) After I finally got him on the phone (at his barracks) we met out on the concrete apron and I was elated to see him and I walked fast to shake a hand and give a hug. He could have cared less and was about as excited as a four year old in a room full of adults! Anyway, we went to his barracks and talked for while and that was the last time I saw of him for a couple more years. One always admires their older brothers and I was no 10 �. , '' I " Service Remembrances - World War Il exception. But, I was somewhat crushed by his lack of emotion, especially after not seeing him for such a long time. Speaking of being crushed how well I recall the day I arrived in Lansing after being gone for over two years. I had called ahead and advised of my arrival time by Greyhound bus. A whole car load of folks had come to the station but the only one to meet me as the bus was unloading was my mother. Maybe I expected too much - but on the other hand there was my Dad, my favorite Uncle and another Aunt and Uncle. I guess the problem lie in the fact they had all been drinking - apparently ~ heavily. I felt bad about this meeting. .' And then, to add a little more vinegar to the dressing, when we got home I discovered my other brother had worn out all my clothes and shoes while I was gone. What a bummer. "The other brother" was Mom's favorite so she probably waxed him into it. Stan began writing his remembrances 8/26/96. KIRBYWPS . - 11 (1­ �., ~ The following inserts are out ofsequence since I did not find them until recently ....February 2004. Stan had written them in longhandand put them with his USMCmemoirs originallypenned in 1996. These were written at that time too. They still contain many facts about his Marine Corps life .... Andare not hard to place with the other writings. Stan's wife: Marthajane (Janie) Kirby " �· ,... '/' "Will wonders ever ceaser Just recently, en e-mQiI friend of ours from PennsylvQniQ, Qfter reQding my nQme on the World War Two MemoriQI page (memoriQI being built in DC. expected to open yet this year 2003) wrote to me to express his QppreciQtion for the "MQrines" on Iwo JimQ who helped SQve his DQd. Qn Air Force tQiI gunner. 20th Air Force. nth Air Bomber Group. on Q B-29. Their crew WQS unQble to IQnd Qt TiniQn Qnd hQd to IQnd Qt Iwo JimQ due to flak dQmQge from bombing run on JQpan. "Due to the Marines. my fQther was given Q ehenee to live Qnd rQise Q fQmily Qnd I wish to hear from every Marine thQt fought there. My fQther hed difficulties putting into words whQt he SQW Qnd I guess did not WQnt to remember but WQS proud of the Itarines Qnd QlwQYs prQised them QS the best fighting men. Books are good for leQrning but the best educQtion is listening to the person who went through life Qnd lived it." '7­ (.'.\) ~-&I The miracle of this story: page. of my story talks Qbout the first B-29 landing on Iwo that I witnessedl THIS IS THE SAME -." PlANE my e-mail friend's fQther was 0", How (:Qn one ever explQin whQt hQppens in our lives? StQn Kirby ��--') pretty good protection against nearby hits of mortars and rifle fire. They were (trenches) of course temporary as we were on constant moves inland. Since Iwo was a volcanic island heat from underground disturbances came close to the surface and this provided warmth during the cool nights. Sometimes you could even see steam rising from the ground. INSERTBD """'\ ~~.J Many guys had to pull Bguard duty" (as they referred to it) and I was one of them. I had to do it twice between Hawaii and Iwo, and once on my way back. Somewhere (between Midway and Guam) I had to do some guard duty on the ship's deck, at the wee hours of the AM. My post was the very rear of the ship -- which was called the Bfan tail." .I did not have to stand still but could walk around under orders not to leave the area. After the last "bulkhead" (wall) of the super structure, the deck went uphill for about 30 feet. Not a severe rise but enough drain water. Naturally there was a railing -- solid steel from hand level to the deck about 4' high. It was a very windy night and the "seas" were rough! There was a bright moon, however, and as I went to the very end of the ship I witnessed how rough the sea can get. We were in swells that raised at1~ lowered the fan tail 20-30 feet!! Fantastic, I thought! And the movement did not make me ill. The last guard duty I pulled was when we got back to California on the way home. We were anchored just off San Francisco and my "post' was on the main deck. I never experienced such turbulent waters. The ship was pitching and yawing and just bouncing around wierdly. One of the sailors advised me, upon my asking, that the problem was caused by the juncture of two currents. Apparently one going one way and one the other. I can't substantiate that, but that is what I was told. INSERT BE" ;o~.-·· , . One thing the Marines stressed to recruits was orderliness and neatness. When we would have area inspections the foot locker, sea bag, rifle and other belongings had a specific place. They were to be in their place or you might endure doing push-ups (lots) or running around the parade ground until your legs ached. A favorite of the inspecting officer was flipping a coin over your made-up cot. It it didn't bound\, you were advised your blanket wasn't IL �:.~ tight enough. This was kind of a often. tongue-in~cheek thing as wasn't done too I don't know how it ever started but the Marines at that time (40's) were known for the "spit shine" on their dress shoes (oxfords.) This was achieved by applying coat after coat of polish in between which you spit on the area and rubbed the moisture in until it disappeared. Generally it would take six or seven coats of polish. Eventually one achieved a glass-like finish. The dress oxfords (Marine issue) were to be worn on leave and when you left camp for weekend pass. In those days (40's) you would never see a Marine whose shoes were unshined. It was part of the Marine dress code. INSERT-f" It was not unusual to have equipment inspection on a moment's notice. This . meant your rifle and bayonet had better be spotless and dustless. We would line up on the parade ground in parade formation. Neat and orderly and at "cttention." The inspecting Sergeant or Officer would very mechanically go from one recruit to another and select one at random for rifle and bayonet inspection. Unfortunately, he stopped at me and!rabbed my rifle. Nothing was found wrong and the rifle was handed back. He then asked for my bayonet (which I had cleaned immaculately.) He said: "There's dirt on the handle," see me in the Company office after inspection." Someone behind me had thrown a pinch of dirt on it I figured. Never found out who. My punishment was something they would never allow today: I had to -dry shave" in the presence of the Company Sergeant (they provided the razor.) At that age, and perhaps due to generic reasons, I didn't have much on my face except peach fuzz. It was scratchy and painful to say the least. To top if off, they splashed shaving lotion on my face and the -sting" was nasty. Why didn't I resist? Because in Marine Recruitment Training in those days you took your punishment and kept your mouth shut. If not, you might find yourself on -Iatri ne duty" for a couple of weeks. Self-control was part of the Marine training. INSERT-Gil One day aboard ship (on the way to Iwo) I noticed a fellow Marine hitting something on his shoe with a mess spoon. The scenario was this: in one hand (7 3 �,. "~ tight enough. This was kind of a often. tongue-in~cheek thing as wasn't done too I don't know how it ever started but the Marines at that time (40's) were known for the "spit shine"on their dress shoes (oxfords.) This was achieved by applying coat after coat of polish in between which you spit on the area and rubbed the moisture in until it disappeared. Generally it would take six or seven coats of polish. Eventually one achieved a glass-like finish. The dress oxfords (Marine issue) were to be worn on leave and when you left camp for weekend pass. In those days (40's) you would never see a Marine whose shoes were unshined. It was part of the Marine dress code. INSERT-F" ,,~) It was not unusual to have equipment inspection on a moment's notice. This ' meant your rifle and bayonet had better be spotless and dustless. We would line up on the parade ground in parade formation. Neat and orderly and at "cttention." The inspecting Sergeant or Officer would very mechanicallygo from one recruit to another and select one at random for rifle and bayonet inspection. Unfortunately, he stopped at me and~rabbed my rifle. Nothing was found wrong and the rifle was handed back. He then asked for my bayonet (which I had cleaned immaculately.) He said: "There's dirt on the handle," see me in the Company office after inspection." Someone behind me had thrown a pinch of dirt on it I figured. Never found out who. My punishment was something they would never allow today: I had to -dry shave" in the presence of the Company Sergeant (they provided the razor.) At that age, and perhaps due to generic reasons, I didn't have much on my face except peach fuzz. It was scratchy and painful to say the least. To top if off, they splashed shaving lotion on my face and the -sting" was nasty. Why didn't I resist:> Because in Marine Recruitment Training in those days you took your punishment and kept your mouth shut. If not, you might find yourself on "latrine duty" for a couple of weeks. Self-control was part of the Marine training. INSERT-G" () One day aboard ship (on the way to Iwo) I noticed a fellow Marine hitting something on his shoe with a mess spoon. The scenario was this: in one hand t7 3 �·, .~ I he had a round object -- about 1" in diameter and was holding it against the side of the heel of his shoe. This he was doing fast and repeatedly. I asked him what he was doing and he said he was making a ring~ This struck my curiosity and sought further info. He proceeded to tell me you take a silver dollar and drill a hole (about 1/4") in the center. Then, after holding it on the shaft of a screwdriver, you kept hitting the silver dollar until the edges knurl back and the hole in the center gets larger. Silver dollars.ace. malleable. After several hours you develop a band-like ring. Fine sandpaper and steel wool finish the job. A long and tedious undertaking? Yes!! But I decided I would try it. My ring turned out smooth and true after fine sandpapering and steel wool. I even rubbed it with wool to get a lovely shine! It actually ended up a hair larger than I desired but it stayed on my ring finger fairly well. I was proud of my efforts. However, I lost it! Some buddies and I went to the north shore of Oahu to experience the huge breaking waves (after returning from Iwo.) We donned our swim trunks and messed around in the breaki~ waves. The water was cold and I guess it shrunk my skin a little on my hand and the ring slipped off into the surf. Couldn't find it. Don't tell Uncle Sam I mutilated a U.S. coin) INSERT"H" In order to get to the troopship into the LeI's (Landing Craft Infantry) it was necessary to climb down these "nets," I'll call them. They were made of like 1" manila rope and the open spaces were about 10" square. With the LCI bouncing around and the troopship moving up and down it was difficult and tricky climbing down. Especially with rifle, field pack, ammo belt, full canteen and Sulpha pack. When you got to the bottom where the LCI was gyrating two or three buddies helped you get off. o One poor soul got a real banged-up leg when his foot slipped and his leg got jammed between the troopship and the top edge of the LCI (gunwhales.) On the spot analysis indicated a broken leg. I don't believe he went ashore. �INSERT-I" 'ht::VElLL£'\ . Recruit training usually was made up of a day that started at 5:45~reville) and ended at 10 PM C-Taps".) After reville the first responsibility was "roll call" (gotta make sure everybody is still therel) After roll call it was back to the tent (or barracks) to get mess gear and go to the mess hall for ·chow: Food was placed on your tray (compartmented) and after you were through you had to scrape off the leftovers into provided containers and be on your way back to the barracks. •Muster" (assembly) was generaIf around SAM as I recall and from there it was marching (close order drill, rifle training, bayonet training, field classes in combat readiness, and various military instruction.) Besides the M-l (Garand) training we had to also become familiar with the M-l carbine and Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR). The first several weeks of Recruit training were restricted primarily to the Recruit Depot. In my case it was San Diego Marine Base. After awhile we were moved north to Camp Pendleton which was just inland from Oceanside, CA. We got more advanced training and exercises (precise rifle training and practice and bivouacs.) One part of the rifle training was composed of simply practicing squeezing the trigger (rather than pulling!) You would line up the target in your sight and squeeze. After the "click" of the firing pin going forward, another Recruit would hit the bolt handle with the base of his palm to simulate recoil. This part of the training lasted several days. Along with the above we would go on long hikes -- usually with full field packs (40-50 pounds) and rifles. The mode of dress was the same as you would have on going into combat; fatigues, steel helmet and liner, leggings, cartridge belt. One of these hikes was 19 miles and even tho there was a 15 minute rest at the 10 mile mark it was still a very tiresome trek. During this particular stretch of training we also had to climb a 10 foot wooden wall, crawl on our bellies about 25 yds. underneath barbed wire and machine gun fire (with rifle cradled in forearms). jumping from 30 ft. tower into water. (This was to acquaint one with possible necessity of having to jump from the deck of the ship.) Insert .... II [f, fL..E S/-I/ttCP SltOdTEI( During rifle training while in Boot Camp, I earned the ·M(lfksl!\ar~hip"medal (3.+ 1.)(;1£' If by hitti ng 7 out of S bulls eyes at 500 yards. . �(~ / There were a few other exercises we were exposed to, but I can't exactly recall them right now. Finally, 90 days later, we ended our "boot" training and got our leave to go home. I thi nk it was 2 weeks. A chance to show off our Marine "greens" and nice tan. It was also an opportunity to see friends and to unite with family. I don't recall dwelling on it at the time, but of course, the fact existed that I might never see them again. After the home leave I reported to Camp Pendleton, CA where we were made ready to go overseas. INSERT"J" ..t,e.,.,lWe Iff'California at San Francisco in gorgeous sunshine and blue sky, heading for Honolulu. Never having been on the ocean before there was some trepidation but I was never afraid of the water. The seas were kinda calm and the breeze was fresh. After a day or so the seas got kinda rolling, and we did experience some pitching and dipping as well as yawing and rolling. A few guys got sick from the motion and contaminated the ocean over the side rails! What to do aboard ship for several days? The biggest recreation was reading. (The ship's store sold magaZines.) N~ to reading came card games. Beyond that there was sun-tanning and bull sessions. The approach to Honolulu and the isle of Oahu was a beautiful sight. Once again the sun was bright and the sky was cloudless. As we were going past the islands of Lanai and Maui there were perpetses threading in and out of the water -- paralleling the ship's course about 75 yards off to the starboard (righthand) side of the ship. This was fascinating and lasted about an hour. Upon docking in Pearl Harbor we were herded into -- what was called -- 6x6's and taken to the Marine Camp to await further orders. We had previously been issued a supply of clothes in California and these things (plus some personal items) were in our sea bags which we were told not to unpack except for change of "skiwies" and undershirt because we would be leaving for Maui the next dayl So be it! �t-~ '-' 1 .I Arriving at Maui we were loaded in 6x6's and taken to the Marine Camp up on the mountainside. Haleakala, by name, which was about 10,000 ft. high. The ride to the camp was fascinating as the many kinds of flowers and vines came right up to the road (asphalt.) The entire trip (about 20 miles or so) was beautiful. The camp was almost entirely a tent city. Company Headquarters rated a wooden building however. It rained upon arrival and rained quite often after that. The tents were about 24'x24' and bunked about 6 men. Because of the frequent rain and mud was a common phenomenon and wooden walkways (boardwalks) were everywhere. Reville was at 5:45AM and "Taps" at 10PM. Taps meant ·'ights out" and they did enforce that rule! Candles were taboo, but if you really had to finish that letter to home you could use a flashlight. ~) We went on a bivouac up Mt. Haleakala one time with full field pack. We went almost to the peak and made camp. It think it was Sept. or Oct. and it was cool and cloudy. This is where we learned how toatake our ponchos and fold them into a waterproof "sack." One did sleep well after that long trek --, i.n tdhe mOdrhning'de~erything around had a green cast. It may have been the a titu e an uml Ity. -.. Incidentally, in the field there was always a latrine to relieive yourself. Generally a slit trench with burlap ·walls· around it. For sit-down events there would be a small 109, elevated a little on both ends. Naturally it was adjacent to the trench. The Marines always fed well and the "cook" division (or platoon) would always arrange an effective field kitchen. Up on Haleakala,however, we were allowed only ·C" rations. This to get used to combat-type situations where there would be no "mess hall.· ·C" rations were meals 'in a can. Generally beef stew, but occasionally pork and beans. Instant coffee was provided in small tin containers which was one small ration of coffee. Just add hot water! We were provided with little can openers that folded down to about the size of a quarter. One wing was kinda oblong and flat while the other was triangle shaped with one sharp edge. You had to strongly hold the oblong side with thumb and index finger while piercing the can with the unfolded sharp edge. Actually it was a rather unique device. ~I �./ .~ ~. While on Maui we had bayonet practice em drills as well as intense physical conditioning. We were in good shape! I ~ Weekend passes were a blessing. We would don our "summer tens" 0JlI go down to Wailuku or Kahaliieu for whatever fun there was to be had. At Kahalieu they had a real nice swimming pool and they would open it to the servicemen during certain hours. When it was open to the military no females were allowed. However,one time an oriental gal did enter somehow and caused quite a ruckus. In her street clothes she ran to the diving board, sat on the end, pulled up her skirt and said, "come and get itW' The water boiled with. • sailors and Marines. Some records may have been broken doing the 20 yards! (I like to swim, but not tho1.bad! Risky for sure, for a disease you wouldn't want to get!!!) There were many things you could do on a weekend pass. It seems like half (or more) of the guys would hit the nearest bar. I thought that was a waste of time so I would go to the beach and hunt shells, go in and out of the little shops, go to the airbase and look at the P-51's and P-38's, or maybe to the usa and have a talk with a hostess and listen to some music while having a cold one. Always there were MP's to keep order..... mentioned, there was a small airfield on Maui and one time I went there with a buddy who had a brother stationed there. We were allowed on the field and the brother took us out to look over a P-51 Mustang. It was really neat and he even let me sit in the cockpit and start the engine! Man, what a thrill! You started the engine with what looked like a shotgun shell. An unforgettable experience. As In late November or early December of '44 we packed our gear and boarded ship for points unknown. We didn't know where we were headed. -- I guess for security reasons. We just tooled across the ocean waters day after day. We passed by Wake Island and the Bikini's (where atomic bomb was set off.) There was nothing left of Bikini except a pile of sand -- no trees, bushes, or anything. Many days later we arrived at Guam. We anchored offshore and took on fuel. There were manyships of varying descriptions all around. We stayed at Guam for two or three days as I recall and then took off �.... (' ' j again. Again, I say, we didn't know where we were going but after several days out at sea it was let known we were going to Iwo Jima, south of Japan. From that moment on we had several little seminars about the island -- its typography, climate, number of troops (assumed, from 63), location of pill boxes, and other military sites. It was rather amazing to us neophyte soldiers that they knew so much about the island. They (instructive officers) had a large draWing of the island which showed the two airstrips, location of bunkers, Mt. Surabachi, and other military targets. Whi le we were enroute and for weeks previous the island was bombed day after day for 75 days. It was later learned that even with all that bombing little damage was incurred to the bunkers and the mass of troops that were safely hiding in the vast network of underground tunnels and caves. INSERT·L" When I was sent to Camp Pendleton in Oceanside, CA, I met up with another Marine; Jack Layton, from Kansas City, MO. We fast became good friends and often went on liberty together. .~ Jack had a girlfriend back in KC, and I too had a girlfriend, my high school •steady" in Lansing, MI. When Jack showed me the picture of Janie (Marthajane) I looked at that beautiful face and immediately fell in love with her! (Didn't breat~a word of my feelings to Jack, however!) I felt, when looking at her, some ·mystical" . sensation, like I had already known her all my life Jack and I decided we would each write the other's girlfriend, to keep tabs on both ~ us, not knowing then where we were going. I think I wrote about 3 letters to) Janie which Jack "censored" while I was writing! I think he wrote Ji II, not sure. We headed off for combat, and found out it was going to be Iwo Jima. Jack and I were in the same outfit but going over were on different ships. We arrived at Iwo on February 19, 1945. Unfortunately, Jack was killed the second day of the invasion. I found out about it immediately and was sick at �) Heart. I wrote to Janie just after Iwo was secured, to tell her: -I haven't seen Jack for quite awhile and I probably never will.- I knew she would know what that meant! Because of censoring, I was unable to say what had happened. My letter reached her just a week before Jack's Mom received the awful telegram from the War Department. Just after I returned from Iwo Jima combat, I was sent to Maui, the USMC rest camp. After arriving, I received a letter from my girlfriend in Michigan telling me: 'Tm engaged and expect to get married soon" Well, what a blow that was!! Here we were, Janie and Stan, brought together somehow by God. I continued to write her and she did too. We fell in love with each other in a matter of weeks. She wrote me such wonderful, caring, loving letters. And I responded as well with so much love for her. I wrote her, during a period of 18 months, 200 letters. She sent me a lot of photos (wow» which I appreciated tremendously (as did the guys in my tent!) I asked her to wait for me and she did. All that time we waited for each other, having never met before. We knew it was a chance we were taki ng but we were both so sure of our love for each other. We both felt Gtremendous power bringing us together and never knew exactly what that sensation was. It was not infatuation, a pipe dream, etc.....It was, J. am sure, the Hand of God. Once before Jack died, I wrote her and said: -After the war you and I and Jack and Jill are going to meet in Chicago at the Trianon baJlroom, and tear Chicago apart! "WeJl, after returning stateside and meeting Janie in Chicago (having met her previously in KC in '46 and were madly in love) we went to the Trianon. When we were dancing, I said: -Do you know what's missing here?­ And she said: "ves, Jack and J'ill." It was painful to be so far apart and when I started college at MSC, it became more painful. We already decided we would get married, but when? I gave her my engagement ring on New Year's Eve in 1946 in K.C. We didn't think we would get married very soon. But by the end of January 1947, we couldn't stand being apart any longed So before my sophomore year at State, we got married June 27, 1947. We were so happy we were delirious! 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KirbyM Title A name given to the resource Kirby, Marthajane (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kirby, Marthajane Description An account of the resource Marthajane Kirby was born on November 4, 1927 in Kansas City, Missouri. When her high school sweetheart joined the Marines, she wrote to him regularly until he was killed. His friend, Stanley Kirby, then took up the correspondence, and when he finally returned to the US, the two were married. See other interview record for papers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c0989ba2096bc1d77b6dcc9bc6ee7c6b.mp4 ed6b6ca424e0c3fb37cb1346bae387c0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a58ed980e06b943baa84a4f1581f36d.pdf 0794ceef190406e3ee742f39d484ce5c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Gunther Kirschner (42:20) Background information (00:11)               Born in October of 1948 in Germany. (00:14) His mother was German but his father was an American Soldier who fought in WWII. (00:30) He arrived in the U.S. in 1952. (1:11) He settled in McKinney Texas. They resided there because his mother was required to have a sponsor to immigrate to the U.S. and his mother’s sponsor lived in Texas. (1:19) His mother wanted to come to the U.S. primarily for the economic environment. (2:00) He resided in Texas for about a year then moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1953. (2:11) He attended Forest Hills High School. (2:40) He was an only child. (2:48) He graduated college in 1968. (2:55) After he graduated he worked in the warehouse for Amway until he was drafted in February of 1969. (3:00) At the time he was drafted he knew very little about the Vietnam War. (3:17) He had very little dramatic reaction to his draft notice. (3:46) He was required to go to Detroit for a physical before being sworn in. (4:12) He failed to notice any blatant tempts by other soldiers to evade the draft. However, he did notice the wide variety of attitudes the men had toward the conflict. (4:33) Basic training (4:50)              Attended basic in Fort Knox Kentucky (4:55) He thought basic training was a very difficult and intimidating experience. (5:00) Men from across the country were at Fort Knox. (5:33) He believed that the drill sergeants were fair. (6:11) The physical training was fairly difficult and included many physical exercises. At the time he joined he was small and thin. (6:44) Basic lasted approx. 2-2.5 months. (7:18) During basic, men were given aptitude tests. Gunther tested highly in mechanics. (7:30) He received advanced infantry training and was not given any sort of engineer or mechanical training. (7:58) He did his AIT at Fort Polk, Louisiana. Here the base was hot and humid and it rained almost every day. (8:08) He recalls being prepared fairly heavily for combat in Vietnam including increased firing range training as well as some jungle training. (8:50) Most of the sergeants had served in Vietnam already. However they never spoke about there experience. (9:00) The men trained on the M60, M16, and M14. Upon the completion of AIT, he was given a week leave to return home. After words he would report to Oakland California. (10:11) �Arrival in Vietnam (11:00)         He flew from Grand Rapids to Oakland and then from Oakland to Vietnam in Uniform. He recalls having been treated kindly. (10:30) The ship landed in Guam before arriving in Vietnam. The men were allowed to get of the plane. (11:24) The men landed in Bien Hoa Vietnam in August of 1969. He recalls the country having a very odd scent. (11:55) Upon landing the men were given more training on jungle terrain for approx 1 week. This training was fairly applicable in the field. (12:40) He was then sent to Camp Evans. (13:40) He was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, D Company. (14:15) When he joined, his unit he didn’t think morale was too low but he did know that they were in combat fairly recently. (15:19) The men stayed in bunkers and barracks. (15:38) Service in Vietnam (16:00)               He recalls going out on patrols with his company soon after being assigned to it. (16:26) Whenever out on patrol, the men were delivered to their destination via helicopter. They often patrolled on hilly terrain. (17:43) The patrols often lasted a few days. (18:30) He did theses patrols often during his entire service in Vietnam. He never had to go into a hot landing zone. (19:05) The patrolling operations could be platoon or company sized however most often it was platoon sized. (19:50) There were approx. 8 men in his squad. (20:02) The men would sometimes utilize trails. (20:44) The unit did run into booby traps during patrols but this did not result in any casualties. (21:00) The unit set up an ambush but were never ambushed themselves. (21:16) Though he did not see any intense combat, he often heard of units engaging in heavy fire only a few kilometers away. (22:08) At night the men in the unit took turns being guards and booby traps were set up to warn of approaching North Vietnamese. They were never attacked at night. (22:30) The more experienced members had told stories of combat they saw. They were very happy that they hadn’t seen much combat after Gunther’s arrival in August of 1969. (23:05) The men were well equipped and supplied. (23:30) He stayed at Firebase Jack which was a smaller part of the larger Camp Evans. (24:42) Life in Vietnam (25:00)   He witnessed drug use while in service both in the field and during camp. (25:20) Men most often smoked marijuana. It was not uncommon for men to smoke in the field near sergeants in spite it being a court-martial offence. (25:35) �        He managed to make close friends during his service in his unit. (26:00) He accepted that he was in Vietnam and had a sense of pride about being in the armed forces. (26:54) He recalls two instances when he was very afraid for his life. One was when his unit was shelled the other was in the DNZ and he was shelled again by U.S. artillery. (27:19) There was some turnover in his unit. (28:08) He had trouble with jungle infections. When he was infected it took him a very long time to get out of the field due to it being the monsoon season. (28:30) He was flown to a hospital ship off the coast of Vietnam. Here the infection was controlled. (29:40) After having healed he was given a choice to stay in Vietnam or return to the U.S. he choose to return home. (30:52) He was then sent to a hospital in Japan before being sent to Walter Reed Medical Center.(30:58) Service in the U.S. (31:00)             After leaving Walter Reed, he was sent to Fort Meade, Maryland. Here he was made a tank driver and trained to control riots in Washington D.C. (31:30) He was never called upon to control a riot. He was however mad a bus driver for the base (32:00) He was an E4 in Vietnam and an E5 in the U.S. (32:40) He doesn’t believe drug use in the platoon caused problems in the field. (33:00) He did not witness racial tensions within his own company. (33:10) He didn’t notice any racial self-segregation on the base in Vietnam. (34:43) The officers performed their tasks and were competent. (35:08) While he served in the 101st, the company was banned from villages due to the bad reputation they had built up prior to his arrival. (35:45) Vietnamese worked on the bases and often preformed KP duty. (37:07) There were other companies at Camp Evans who saw combat and took heavy casualties. (37:40) He received in country R&R while in Vietnam in a beach area near the China Sea. He received the opportunity to go out of country but it was during a period in which we was medevaced. (38:02) When I the U.S. he did understand that the military was attempting to scale back. (40:00) Life after service (post February 1971)(40:25)     He returned to the Amway after his discharge in 1971 to work. (40:30) He used his GI bill for truck driver training. (40:35) He began his painting career in 1984.(40:50) The service left positive effects on him and he was proud to have served his country. He valued the discipline and emphases on team work the military provides. (41:15) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KirschnerG1328V Title A name given to the resource Kirschner, Gunther (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kirschner, Gunther Description An account of the resource Gunther Kirschner, born in October of 1948 in Germany, moved to the U.S. at a young age and lived near Grand Rapids Michigan. After completing high school he was drafted into the U.S. Army. Gunther served from August of 1969 to February of 1971, spending several months as a rifleman in the 101st Airborne Diviision during the Vietnam Conflict. While he was with his unit, his company was not heavily engaged, although other units in his battalion and brigade were. His tour was cut short by infections, and he was sent home for treatment, and completed his service in the U.S. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-01 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/580f1b63d93788dde92adc76f7e81103.mp4 757d7491cc08e0d76f6d5b344bf31c4c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a54d07e655b86143eafd67d188336b25.pdf 7f2058a92efafa34393e0fe5ceabc2c9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Dale Kissinger Vietnam War Total Time: 1:19:00 Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (0:00:0) • • • • • • Born in Gary, Indiana in 1948. Attended High School in Valparaiso, Indiana. Father worked in a steel mill, and he paid his way through college the same way. Attended Trinity College in Deerfield, Illinois. Joined the Air Force in 1972. He was motivated to join the Air Force because his draft number was low and recruiters came to him with the option of joining pilot school. Training (0:02:10) • • • • • • He was given the option to go into helicopter pilot training school. Attended basic helicopter pilot training at Fort Walters, Texas. They would practice maneuvers including takeoff and landing, and the basics of field landings. From there, he went to Fort Rucker, Alabama where he took Advanced Helicopter Training and learned difficult maneuvers. (0:04:30) After flight training, he attended several different survival schools, including the Water Survival School in Homestead, Florida and then did Land Survival in Washington. His wife travelled with him during this time. Was taught his specific aircraft, The UH-1 Huey, at Hill Air Force Base. His assignment was initially to go to Andrews Air Force Base. However he ended up at Indian Springs, NV. Active Duty (0:06:50) • At Indian Springs, his job was to fly over the underground nuclear test program and monitor the activity around the site. Mostly worked in a support role. • Had some experience setting up an Air Force test program which allowed him some high altitude flying experience • His base was very small, and there were around 11 or 12 men in the unit. They were around 100 miles from Las Vegas, Nevada. • (0:10:25) He was stationed there for 4 years. • (0:11:05) Was then transferred to Howard Air Force Base in Panama in 1977, where he was stationed there for 4 years. While he was there for 3 years. • While they were in Panama, he worked in the Canal Zone. • He worked as an instructor for a time for the Panamanian Air Force. �• (0:14:20) Was part of the helicopter squadron that moved the Shah of Iran around when he was in Panama. He also had to be put on alert and fly to a carrier when the Sandistas took over Nicaragua. • (0:19:00) Also did some work in Panama as a Rescue pilot. He won an award at one point by doing some hazardous mountain flying to attempt to save a stranded mountain climber. • (0:20:58) From Panama, moved to Shepherd Air Force Base, Texas where he was taught to fly fixed wing aircraft. He was qualified to fly fighter pilots, but did not fly because of his age. He instead became an instructor at Reese Air Force Base in Lubbock, Texas. • (0:24:50) Left Lubbock in 1984 to go to Scott Air Force Base, IL and did desk work. While he was there he got his Masters Degree in International Relations. Worked in the Air Rescue Coordination office. • Any search that the FAA took to the federal level, their office would get involved and coordinate the rescue efforts. • (0:29:30) They were responsible for the search and rescue efforts for the Space Shuttle Challenger crash. • (0:34:05) From there, went to Hurlburt Field, Florida in 1987, which was the base for the Special Operations forces of the Air Force, where he worked as the flight examiner. He was sent to many different bases around the world. • (0:37:02) Was promoted to the position of Flight Operations Officer in Naval Air Station Keflavik, Iceland in 1989. • They did many different things, including more rescue operations, while in Iceland. • (0:43:05) In 1992, was transferred to the Pentagon in Washington, DC in a program called Reserve Operations. He worked budgeting programs and defending these programs in hearings. • (0:44:40) Got promoted out of the Pentagon position in 1994 and was moved to Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico with the 58th Special Operations Wing. They trained these men, and their main goal was to create crews for aircraft. Got to be group commander while he was there. • (0:53:25) Transferred from there to Charleston Air Force Base, South Carolina in 1997. He ran the C-141 Special Operations Program. He was very tightly connected to the base because the importance of their planes to operations. Therefore, he was always on alert. • (0:54:45) Was moved to McCord Air Force Base, Washington in 1999 to be Vice Wing Commander of the C-71 battalion. Worked in the logistical transition from the C-141 to the C-17. • (0:56:40) Was at the base on September 11, 2001. Remembers shutting down the base and moved to DEFCON 3. • Flew into Afghanistan during the war. Flew from McCord, Washington to Europe in the C-141 and then a C-17 the rest of the way to Afghanistan. Landed in Kandahar and worked dropping Meal Ready to Eat packs to the civilians in Afghanistan. �• (0:58:40) Also worked in Bosnia during his time at Charleston AFB. He was the 437th Air Expeditionary Force Commander during a month and a half of this operation. He would both bring food and military hardware during this time. • He retired in 2002 after 30 years in the Air Force as a Colonel Post Service (1:08:50) • When he retired from the Air Force, he moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan and worked in the Avionics industry. After that, he started working for militaryavenue.com, which was started by his children. This site helps military families who move around a lot get acclimated to their surroundings. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KissingerD Title A name given to the resource Kissinger, Dale (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kissinger, Dale Description An account of the resource Dale Kissinger was born in Gary, IN in 1948 and served in the Air Force between 1972 and 2002. He decided to join the Air Force upon completion of high school and attended training to become a helicopter pilot, and later trained in fixed wing aircraft as well. He worked in Nevada, Panama, Texas, South Carolina, New Mexico, Iceland, Bosnia and Afghanistan. He did a number of different jobs, including pilot, flight instructor, and management. He retired from the Air Force in 2002, and works for a website which helps military families during their transitions from base to base. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Air Force Afghan War, 2001---Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-22 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3cd7bbf055f4d3ba58ea1b26ed471b69.mp3 57f33e14f782d2c0d3c28939cba1ecff https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/49f4aaad095c2c0b3a73a8a85e5bbbb1.pdf 9e76eaafd9b45d01229ef12102362f4d PDF Text Text Barbara Kiszonas- Interview by Tyler Smith July 21, 2018 0:02 TS: All right. So this is Tyler Smith, and I’m here today with 0:11 BK: Barbara Kiszonas 0:13 TS: At the Saugatuck Douglas History Center in Douglas, MI, on July 21st, which is a Saturday of 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment of the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I’m interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it? 0:45 BK: My full name Barbara Kiszonas. Spelled, well Barbara you know, but Kiszonas. KI-S-Z-O-N-A-S. 0:54 TS: All right. Um. Do you use any accents when spelling your name? 0:59 BK: No. 1:01 TS: All right then. Can you spell Barbara really quick to just in case? 1:05 BK: All right. B-A-R-B-A-R-A [laugh] 1:08 TS: Standard Barbara spelling 1:10 BK: Standard 1:11 TS: Perfect. Um. So we’ll start off with some basic questions. So tell me about where you grew up. Um. Yeah. 1:18 BK: Oh. All right. I grew up in Chicago on the north side, and lived there about, uh, until I had my children, my two daughters. Um, and then we moved to New Jersey around, um, I guess it was 1981. 1:38 TS: All right. What are some of your most vivid memories from your childhood? 1:43 BK: from my childhood? Oh my goodness. Um. Wow. Well, I grew up in a big family. I’m the oldest of 8 children. So there was a lot of, always a lot of activity in our house. Uh, we lived in a house on the north side of Chicago with a big yard. And um, we were pretty much our own play group, although we did have other friends, obviously. But we did a lot of things in our, in our big yard. Um, we had a big willow tree we like to climb. Um, we would play games, and we would have parties there. Um, we even would like to, we would put on little fairs and shows and sometimes the neighborhood kids would come. Um. So it was a lot of fun. �2:24 TS: [laugh] That is excellent. Uh, so, if you could tell me a little bit more about your family and family history, I guess particularly as would relate to this area. Who’s still in this area? Who travels through here? 2:39 BK: mm hm. Um, well, my family I guess you could say is kind of immigrant family. My, my father and myself actually were born in Ireland. And my mother is English, born in London. And they emigrated to Canada, uh, when I was probably about 14 months old. And so we lived in Canada for about 5 or 6 years. Um, and then my father had already left Canada already to come down to the States to look for work. He was in construction. Um, and he first went to New York and then he went to Chicago. And my mother and, at that time three children, uh, eventually followed. And made our home in Chicago. So two of my brothers and sisters, uh, one brother one sister were born in Canada as well, um. And we moved to Chicago, and that’s when the reminder of the children were born. In Chicago. 3:41 TS: All right. And what was your father’s last name? 3:44 BK: Boyd. B-O-Y-D 3:46 TS: OK. What was your mother’s maiden name? 3:47 BK: My mother’s maiden name was Kronenburg (?) 3:50 TS: Ok. That is a pretty fascinating family history 3:53 BK: [laugh] 3:56 TS: All right. Um. [clear throat] 3:59 BK: And we went by train. I remember that. I was, um, probably 7 years old, and we went by train from Canada. And I remember saying afterwards to my mother “I never knew how long the night was until we rode on that train.” Because we didn’t really sleep very well, and you know it was like it was still night outside. And yeah it was a long trip. 4:23 TS: Man. And how old were you when you came over from Ireland? 4:26 BK: About 14 months 4:27 TS: Ok. So you don’t remember that 4:29 BK: No. no. 4:30 TS: Did, how did your parents get over? Was it by boat then? 4:33 BK: By boat. Yes 4:34 TS: Ok. Wow �4:36 BK: yeah. Yeah. Actually when I was 10 years old, um, our family took a trip back to Ireland and England to visit relatives. 4:44 TS: Ok 4:45 BK: And that was the first time I’d ever been on a plane. It was Pan Am. 4:47 TS: All right. 4:48 BK: Yeah. It was great. 4:50 TS: That’s excellent. What, um, what county of Ireland is your father from? 4:54 BK: Antram 4:55 TS: Ok. Interesting. 4:58 BK: Oh, I guess. Yeah. Is that the county? Antram? I think it is. Is that the Province? 5:02 TS: Yeah. I have uh, a bare understanding of how it works over there 5:06 BK: Yeah. Northern Ireland 5:08 TS: ok. 5:09 BK: Yeah. Belfast actually 5:10 TS: Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. There, um, I don’t know if you’ve been up north in Michigan, but I think there is an Antram county. There as well 5:18 BK: Yeah. I’ve seen some of the names. Yeah. Over there yeah. 5:25 TS: All right. Let’s see. Well you would qualify as a seasonal resident then. You spent summers up here, correct? 5:35 BK: Uh, yeah, we spent summers. Like when I first went to camp I was still in grammar school. And I don’t know if you want me to get into too much of that right now, but, um, came for a couple of years and then what happened, um, when I was in high school. Some of my brothers and sisters also came, but Mom came up as a cook for the camp. 6:01 TS: Ok. 6:02 BK: Um, so then she brought the younger children with her, and they stayed up for the summer and we would visit. And I came up twice as a counselor. Once, uh, when I was in high school, once when I was in college. �6:15 TS: So then when, when would be the first time you were in Saugatuck Douglas? 6:20 BK: the first time, do you want me to say the year? And really date myself [laugh] 6:22 TS: You can if you want 6:24 BK: Um, I think it was 1961. 6:28 TS: Ok. 6:28 BK: Um. Yeah. That was my first time up here. The first time I had ever seen it. Um, one of my friends from school, um, a girl named Linda, uh, in, had gone to camp, or maybe her older sister had gone to camp. And so she invited me to come, and I did. And that was my first experience. First time being in Michigan, and first time being in a sleep away camp. 6:52 TS: Ok. How long was the camp back then? 6:55 BK: It seems to me, I was talking about this with my sister. I think it was a little less then two weeks. So I’m not sure if 10 days, 12 days, I don’t think it was full two weeks. 7:05 TS: Ok. That’s a pretty good chunk of time, though. To be away from home 7:07 BK: Yeah. It was, it was, yeah. 7:10 TS: And what was, um, what was your first impression? Especially being here for, um, overnight stay probably with your friends, you know away from everything? For a block of 10 ten days. What was it like when you arrived in Saugatuck? 7:22 BK: Um. Well, we arrived by train back then. They used to leave from, I think it was Grand Central, which is no longer there. It was down on Harrison Street I think. Anyway in Chicago. Sort of like the near south side. And so that was an adventure coming on the train with all the girls. I think we took up a whole car. And for years I’ve wondered where the train stopped. Because there isn’t a train station in Saugatuck, but there is one in Fennville or there was. And I think, I’m pretty sure it was the Fennville Station. We didn’t stop exactly in the town, because I remember getting out of the train and it was like fields, farm fields all around us. So maybe because we were towards the front and that end of the train stopped further away from the station. Um. And there would be a school bus waiting. And the school bus would take us to camp. 8:20 TS: Ok. 8:21 BK: Yeah. So I can still remember that being, looking out the train window and seeing the school bus and, um. So anyway the school bus would take us to camp. And of course I think this was the first time I ever saw sand dunes as well. So it, it was great to be out of the city. Like I said. We lived on the north side of Chicago. Um. And I guess the really great thing about it was �how close it was to the lake. Cause my family had always enjoyed being really close by the water, and it great to have the beach within walking distance. 8:52 TS: Oh yeah. It must have been pretty amazing. Especially coming down the road toward the camp, right? In the school bus on that narrow road going along the river. 8:57 BK: yeah. Yeah. Right. 9:02 TS: Man. Yeah. So. You were mostly struck by, I guess the natural area 9:07 BK: Yeah. Just the, the outdoors. The amount of time we were able to spend outdoors. I mean, my family always did like to go to parks and to the beach and that, but it was nice to have it right there at your doorstep. Everyday come out of your cabin, um, and just, you know, be able to walk outside in the, just to be in the midst of the, the trees and just nature itself. 9:32 TS: Yeah. 9:34 BK: yeah. 9:35 TS: I guess when you went back home how did you describe that to your family? 9:39 BK: Well, my mother said, it was funny, my mother said for the first few days after I got back from camp I was like an angel. It was just, I was a changed person for a few days anyway. Until I got back in with my brothers and sisters. [laugh] But, uh, it really did I think create an atmosphere of calm. Mm. Yeah. 10:03 TS: I understand that totally. Um so you’ve been coming to the area since 1961. What places have you stayed? 10:12 BK: Well that’s interesting. When you go to camp, you go to camp, and that’s it. And like we were talking before, the last day before you left camp, you would go into Saugatuck. We would walk through the woods on a trail, and come down to the ferry you know, and take the ferry across. And we were free I, I guess it was a few hours. I mean they specified a time where we had to meet back, but it was the one time were we actually had, you know, a certain amount of freedom to go, and to go to the drugstore. And we would go sometimes to the drugstore and get ice cream or, um, a phosphate. Uh. Uh yeah. And then at that time they used to rent um, like paddleboats right around the ferry area. Which they don’t anymore, so I don’t know when they stopped that. A lot of times we would get in the paddle boat with one of our friends and kind of paddle around Lake Kalamazoo, and um, also go to the post, also at the drug store we would get post cards. Post cards to send home. Although they had those at camp too, because they, you could buy them. They had a little, they called it a Tuck Shop. Kind of thing. Actually they called it Shack. Which sounds funny now. And it was outside the dining room. And every day after lunch. Oh, actually it was the rest period after lunch. But after that they would ring the bell, and then you could go to the Shack. And they had the, they had like penny candy, um, you know. Just little treats that you could get. And at the beginning of camp you came over with a certain �amount of money, which handed over for the Shack. And so they would deduct it from your account. If there was anything left you got that at the end. 11:56 TS: Yeah. That’s pretty cool. The credit system. 12:00 BK: Yeah. Yeah. It was, yeah. In fact, my sister, Jennifer who came up the next year because she’s three years younger than me, um, she later on, when my mother was up at camp being the cook, she would be, she was in charge of the shack. And she said she used to dread. The kids would come pouring out. She was afraid they were going to knock over her, because it was just about the size of um, not much bigger than a telephone booth. And it was right on the edge of the ravine. She said she just envisioned someday they were just going to push her over into the ravine. But that never happened. 12:35 TS: Oh, yeah. So it, now you said your mom came up to camp with you and your sisters, did all of the members of your family? Have they been through this area? 12:44 BK: All of them have yeah. Um [throat clear] my mom didn’t come when we were campers. She came up later on when I was in high school, and I was not going to camp anymore. Um, and I think it was then at that time we got to explore more of the area. Because like I said, when you came to camp you only came to camp. They had activities that were filling your day every day and what reason would there be to go site seeing? You know, with camp activities, and the beach, usually twice a day you can go there in the morning and then in the afternoon. Campfires at night. So they really kept you busy. Um, but then as I came up later when I was a teenager, um when my mom was at camp and my sister and I would sometimes drive up and camp the family for the weekend, then we got to explore a little bit more. You know, what was in Douglas, and at that time Douglas was, you know, nothing like it is now. Um, a lot of it had, I don’t know. I don’t want to say closed down, but there were a lot of empty store fronts. And there certainly wasn’t any artistic community. So about the only thing we did in Douglas was sometimes go over to the bowling alley. 13:53 TS: ok 13:54 BK: Yeah. Um, yeah, and then of course we walked around Saugatuck. And that was fun and taking the chain ferry, um, and then later on, um, when our daughters were very small, when my husband and I were still living in Chicago we would come up here sometimes, um. And we would stay at what was then called, uh, Shady Shores? Um, which is all condos now 14:20 TS: ok. 14:21 BK: Right at the entrance of Saugatuck. Right on the riverside. It’s all new condos. But at that time it was little cinderblock cabins. And we would stay in that. And we would walk in to town from there, um. Um, and I remember our little girls would like we would take to the playground, and Pumpernickel’s was at that time kind of a campy store. So we’d go in there to pick out candy 14:50 TS: That’s cool �14:50 BK: yeah. 14:51 TS: So how, um, would you say that Saugatuck has changed from when you first got here as a camper and you just saw it as a camp to when you bring your kids here to now? 15:00 BK: Uh. Well obviously it’s gotten more and more built up over time. I guess it always was kind of an artist’s community. Oxbow was still, or was pretty active back then. When I was a camper I didn’t know anything about it, but later on, and we visited there. Um. Certainly a lot more restaurants. Um. The waterfront has probably been improved. Uh. Lot more boats, although I can remember as a camper walking along and looking at the big boats and just being in awe of these beautiful big boats and trying to imagine what it would be like to go on one of them. Rich people [laugh] 15:44 TS: [laugh] right 15:45 BK: just a dream. 15:46 TS: I know, it’s still a dream. Walk down the board walk 15:52 BK: Yeah. Yeah. I know. It’s fun just to look at them, and it was back then. Yeah. 15:57 TS: Definitely. Well, what was um, your favorite place to eat in the summer? That could have changed. You know, several different places. 15:59 BK: Oh my goodness. What was our favorite place to eat? Um. I rem, probably the Butler. You know just because we didn’t know a lot about what else was here and we started going there, and yeah, we enjoyed going there. And it was a good place to take kids. You know? You didn’t worry about being too formal or anything. 16:30 TS: Yep 16:31 BK: Not that anyplace in Saugatuck is formal. But it was just very casual family atmosphere. And there used to be a place called the Logan Muff. Loaf and Muff Deli. Which is where Hercules, which was where Hercules is now. Yeah. And we used to enjoy going there for like a casual breakfast or lunch sometimes. 16:52 TS: Yeah. I remember that place too. Uh, did you ever get a summer job in the area? 16:58 BK: No. Other than camp? No. no. 17:01 TS: ok. 17:02 BK: I came up probably when I was about 15 and was what they called a junior counselor, and then I came back when I was in college and was a full counselor. �17:09 TS: ok. All right. Well, we’ll dive into those in a few minutes I think. 17:14 BK: ok. 17:15 TS: Um, did you spend time on or near the water? Which we know you spent some time at the beach, yeah. 17:18 BK: A lot. A lot. As much as we could 17:24 TS: Perfect. Yeah. What did you guys do? Uh. In the water? In the area? 17:28 BK: Um. Well we mostly. We would go to the beach and mostly just play in the water. Play, swim. Whatever. And I said at night we would have campfires. Sometimes. Down on the beach. And, um, actually sometimes, I forgot, there were sometimes when we’d come up for a family camp that they had. And we would come up actually after we moved to the east coast we only came a few times because it was a long trip. But we would go to the family camp and they would have campfires on the beach. It was nice. 18:01 TS: That’s excellent. Outside of the paddle boat excursions on Lake Kalamazoo, did you ever get out on a boat? 18:06 BK: Yeah. Uh. We’ve, we’ve rented a pontoon. We’ve gone, again as we came up. We sort of, my family itself as we had such a big family, um, we sort had our own little reunion, camp reunion, up, you know, up here. And we would get the canoes from Camp Gray and go out and that was fun. And we also rented pontoon, and we had we’d gone kayaking from the uh, boat launch in Douglas 18:40 TS: Ok. Yeah. 18:41 BK: We actually, my husband and I actually have our own two person kayak, which we have used I think one time in the three years we’ve owned it [laugh] 18:48 TS: [laugh] 18:50 BK: um, but anyway. We’ve used several different kinds of boats on the water. 18:57 TS: Cool. Yeah. A lot of manual powered 19:00 BK: Yeah I guess that’s why maybe I’m not too crazy about it. Um. It takes some strength in your arms. Yeah. 19:10 TS: Oh it does. Yeah. Especially in the river currents if you have to go back up 19:15 BK: Yeah. It’s nice if they drop you off. Like we rented kayaks from, um, whatever the name was that, from Douglas. And she drove us up to I think New Richmond. And then, then we came down. And that’s nice. You just come down the river and you get off. But when you take it �out yourself that’s another story because you’ve got to get yourself up the river and back down. Yeah. So we don’t normally go too far. Just kind of paddle around that little bay. 19:44 TS: Yeah. Makes sense. So how’s the river changed since the first time you’ve seen it. 19:49 BK: A little busier I guess. Yeah. More boats on it. You know. We had some friends that had a cabin off, on Lake Kalamazoo. I’m trying to think. Off of the old Allegan Road. 20:05 TS: Ok 20:06 BK: And we went out one time with them in a rowboat. But it was a very quiet area, so you didn’t really run into other boats. And I guess the bigger boats don’t really go up the river. They mostly stay in the marina and then go out to Lake Michigan. So you don’t really run across them. Although sometimes motor boats and you know, you have to watch out for them. 20:24 TS: Yeah. They don’t watch out for you sometimes 20:27 BK: Yeah. Yeah. You hope they’re watching out for you. 20:30 TS: Right? On those busy weekends though you can never tell. 20:31 BK: Yeah. So it’s usually, if you’re going to go, it’s usually better to go during the week when it’s not that busy. Like the weekend 20:39 TS: Not major holidays either. 20:41 BK: Right 20:42 TS: Um, you talked about spending time in Douglas. Um, I guess could you tell me a little more about the difference between the two towns. 20:54 BK: Oh. At the time. When we first started coming Saugatuck was really where all the action was. Douglas was, was a little sleepy backwater town. Um. There really wasn’t much to do in Douglas. You know, I can’t, there probably were some things, but like I said, um, we really didn’t venture beyond the Demonds, which, the grocery store. Um, you know, it’s been there for such a long time. Um, or the bowling alley. And that’s probably as far as we went. I don’t think we went to the library at that time, because, just because we were more oriented toward the camp. Yeah. 21:32 TS: Yeah. Yeah. All right. 21:35 BK: So I, you know. My memory of Douglas is just, there was nothing there. 21:39 TS: Yeah. 21:41 BK: In the 60’s [laugh] �21:42 TS: It’s changed a lot even in my life time, too. 21:46 BK: Yeah, yeah. It continues to change. Um, yeah. You know the buildings. They put up Center Street and just you know, things have been coming more alive. Pretty much active in the downtown area of Douglas. And even started to extend on Center Street toward the lake, which you know was never really there before. 22:08 TS: Wow. That’s pretty crazy. Yeah. Are there any other places or institutions that were important to you in the area. We talked about the camp, you talked about 22:18 BK: Um. Well. I am a member of the historical society. Um, and I always like to go and see what exhibits they’re showing in museums, so. My family has always loved going to museums, so we were really happy to see that being active, and the programs here at the school house as well. Other institutions? Um, I can’t really say I can’t think of them off hand, but you know. [laugh] 22:52 TS: Good. That’s totally fine. 22:56 BK: Great supporter of the library too. I hope they get their new building. 22:58 TS: yeah. That’d be great. Right? All right. Let’s see. So where, where is your vacation home currently in the area. 23:09 BK: In Douglas. 23:11 TS: In Douglas 23:12 BK: In Tower Marina 23:13 TS: Ok. Excellent 23:14 BK: Yeah. By the water. [laugh] Well you know, um, almost any place in Saugatuck Douglas, you’re near the water. Not far, but we really like being able to look at the marina from our patio. It, uh, yeah. 23:32 TS: It is a wonderful thing. 23:33 BK: Yeah. It is, it is 23:35 TS: That was the biggest problem I had in Tucson is that there’s no water, so it just starts to grate on you 23:38 BK: Oh yeah, I, yeah. I guess a lot of people like that, but I can’t imagine living in a land locked place. Even in Chicago had the lakefront. Which is great. You know within, within half an hour um, you could be on the beach. �23:58 TS: Yeah. Yeah. What, what neighborhood in Chicago were you 24:04 BK: uh, it, it’s called Irving Park. It’s in, it’s the Northwest side. Yeah. Well, I grew up there. Then my husband moved to live a little bit further west. Moved to Portage Park for a few years. Several years I guess. 24:20 TS: Yeah. So, Irving Park. I spent a year in Chicago, so I was up in that area, um, easy to get to the lake from there. 24:28 BK: yeah. Yeah. You can go straight down to Irving Park, although my friends and I used to go to Foster Beach which is a little bit further north. Uh. Yeah. 24:35 TS: Yeah. There’s a dog park in there now 24:42 BK: Oh is there? 24:42 TS: Yeah. You know. All right, I think we should dive into your, your camp experience 24:48 BK: Oh, ok 24:50 TS: So give me the, the breadth of your experience. You started off as a camper and ended up as a senior counselor 24:57 BK: Counselor yeah. Yeah, uh I actually went to camp as a camper for I think only two years. And my sister, my sister came my second year, and then she went a few more years. And then my brother came. Brother Jim came and brought his friends. And then, uh, I’m not sure about the younger siblings. How many of them went to camp on their own, or if they just came up with my mother. I’m not sure about that. Um, and one thing I should mention because we’ve been talking we were talking earlier about Camp Gray, um we were actually in a separate camp called Peniel Camp, that was part of Camp Gray. But it was one section, and sometimes you’ll see old pictures of the Penial Dining Hall, and it went up the hill probably, um a little bit to the north 25:46 phone starts ringing in background 25:47 TS: I guess we’ll wait for the phone to stop ringing. I have no authority to answer it, so we just have to 26:00 BK: Ok 26:05 pause while waiting for phone to stop ringing 26:07 TS: All right �26:08 BK: All right. So Peniel was on the north end of Camp Gray. And the activities were totally separate. They did not mix at all. It was a different, different, maybe population. The time we went to camp, and I can’t swear to it, but my impression was that Camp Gray, the boys and girls camp was for primarily intercity at that time, um, and we came from the north side of Chicago. And some of the kids also came in from the suburbs, so camp, Peniel Camp was much smaller, probably I’m going to say, maybe 25-30 26:45 TS: Oh, ok 26:47 BK: Yeah. Girls or boys. The girls and boys were separate. They had different camps, um, so it was a smaller group, um, and um, different activities from Camp Gray. We didn’t even share the same beach. There was, yeah, totally separate. In fact when I went to camp I did not even know what Camp Gray looked like. 27:08 TS: Really? 27:10 BK: Yeah. Never ever went over there. So it’s not til I got older that, um, that I found out about the rest of it, and we actually go over there sometimes. You know. Especially when they had the camp, the family camp, or the camp reunions we would sometimes go over to their dining hall. But when we were campers no. It was totally separate. 27:30 TS: Wow. And how’d you spell Peniel 27:35 BK: P-E-N-I-E-L 27:38 TS: Ok. So entirely separate? Separate administrations? 27:40 BK: Everything. 27:41 TS: Really. Wow. And there’s, uh, so you never actually even saw the other camp while you were there. 27:46 BK: no. No. Um, when we would go down to the beach, was as close as we came. They were up on the hill from us. And you could look up on the hill and sometimes you would see, you know, the other kids, but. Never any mixing, intermingling. Whatever. 28:08 TS: So, back then, what, what did you think of that? Another camp and you just didn’t know 28:14 BK: Um. I don’t know. They were just different kids from a different place. I don’t know. They just, we had different schedules. Maybe it was, maybe they scheduled the beach time so we weren’t on the beach at the same time. Maybe that’s why we didn’t see them. 28:28 TS: That could be. Yeah. �28:29 BK: Yeah. I don’t know. But I also think that their beach, I mean honestly the whole shoreline is beach, but I think that when they went down to the beach they were much further down then us. Yeah. So we never saw them in the water or 28:40 TS: Ok. Ok. Yeah. That’s fascinating 28:44 BK: Yeah. 28:25 TS: So then for camp, Camp Peniel, was there a specific focus for the camp, or was it mostly like get away do activities sort of basic camp. 28:54 BK: Um, they were both sort of under the hospices of the Presbyterian church. Um, I suppose they had similar programs. I mean we would start the morning after breakfast we would have chapel. And, um sometimes in the evening, but then there were various activities throughout the day. And, uh, well, here’s one difference. Peniel was started by a group of what they were called at the time Hebrew Christians. So they were Jewish people who believed that Jesus was their Messiah. So they had that distinctive about them, but really and so there was a, a block of people who had been part of this community center on the north side of Chicago who had since moved out to the suburbs. And their children continued to come. But anybody then that lived in the neighborhood, no matter what religion or background they had was welcome to come to camp. 29:50 TS: Ok 29:51 BK: So. There was at that time it was run by a couple called Mr. and Mrs. K, our camp. Uh. The K stood for Kominski but everybody called them the K’s. And Mr. Kominski would tell Bible stories during chapel. And he was such a fascinating person. He’d be telling stories from the Old Testament about David or whoever and he would just tell them in such a graphic way. It was so entertaining. Of course it was before, um, you know all of the media that we have today. But he was just a lovely, lovely person. Everyone loved him, and he was really the heart of the camp. And then later on his nephew, Larry Rich took over. And when I came as a counselor Larry was in charge, and we got to be good friends, and Larry was the minister at, uh, our wedding. 30:42 TS: [laugh] very nice 30:44 BK: So that, that is a connection there 30:45 TS: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really cool. And you mentioned you know, that one of your friends brought you up to camp and your brother brought his friends up to camp, so was it like a local neighborhood word of mouth 30:58 BK: Yeah. Yeah it was. It was pretty much because I don’t know if they, if out of the community center, outside they probably you know, promoted it. Advertised it. But, um, for us it was word of mouth. Mmhm. �31:14 TS: That’s cool. Do you know if, um, Camp Peniel and Camp Gray were on the same timeline then? Did they both, were they sold at the same time? 31:22 BK: Um, [throat clear] Camp Peniel, um, probably ended, oh my gosh, um, I don’t think they had campers past the 70’s, but they continued the family camp. And that was probably just like once a year. You know, maybe like um, I think for a long weekend. They did have like a week of family camp in between, but it got to be I think, um, like in the 2000’s, it was just maybe like a long weekend. Uh, in the summer. Mm hm. 32:02 TS: Ok. And then, so what, what activities do you remember from your time as a camper? Not necessarily the activities you did, but where did you sleep, where did you eat, you know. Anything that stands out. 32:15 BK: Ok. Yeah. Um, well we slept in wooden cabins. Had no insulation. Of course you didn’t need it in the summer. But basic, you know. The bare wooden walls. Um, pretty primitive accommodations. You brought your own bedding. Um, thin mattresses. Uh, single, single beds and in one set of cabins they had, um, they, they were probably I don’t know, three or four different types of cabins. Um, some of them would sleep like three people. Two campers and a counselor. Um, some of them would sleep 8 in bunkbeds. And I know there was one up in the hill, up in the hillside that had the sinks outside. So I think I think it had, oh gosh, um, yeah. You had to go outside to wash. I know that. And I don’t know exactly, if there was a toilet in the cabin itself or not. I mostly stayed in the other ones that had just a sink and a toilet both enclosed, but pretty, pretty primitive. But you didn’t spend much time in there. You slept in there and you were busy all day long doing stuff. Um, and the dining hall, um the meals I’m going to say again were pretty simple. The camp, camp was incredibly cheap. I mean I don’t even remember, but it seemed to me that even back in the 60’s and of course that is a long time ago, it was something like $20, $25 for a kid. So cheap. So you know they did what they could with the money that they had. They certainly, we certainly didn’t have anything that was tech because there wasn’t anything like that back then. But we had a lot of activity and the meals were pretty simple. Um, it was enough to eat. I’m not going to say that you went hungry. They had this policy that you had to sample everything. Even if you just took a tablespoon, you had to sample everything. Yeah, so if you were a fussy eater, well you might be out of luck. But that was interesting because, um, when as I mentioned the previous director’s nephew took over, one of the things he changed is no more powdered milk. He said “I couldn’t stand when I was a kid, when I was a kid, and we’re not going to have it now.” [laugh] 34:35 TS: [laugh] 34:38 BK: And also when my mom came in as cook, um, she, she introduced uh, different foods. Having raised 8 children, she knew what kids liked and didn’t like. Um. And she said her kids were the fussiest eaters. She had to make something different for every of them, every night was like running a restaurant. Well at camp they didn’t do that. Um, there would always be an alternative. If you didn’t really want to eat something you could have a bowl of cereal. Yeah. Yeah, right? And, uh. Oh yeah, I was just thinking about some of the activities. One thing that we used to do and I hadn’t thought of before we used to always have an outing, maybe two outings to Mt. Baldie. We called it Mt. Baldie at that time. I think they call it Mt. Baldhead now, �but it was always known as Mt. Baldie back then. And so then we would go over there, and we walked everywhere. We hiked everywhere. Which is another reason we didn’t go very far. But anyway we would go over to Mt. Baldie and, um, we didn’t climb the stairs but we did, I think we up the back side of the mount, the dune. From the beach. And then they would have trails that you would run down, and sort of like, yeah. Just running down them. And they had names to them. I don’t remember the names now. My brother would. But um, so and yeah, yeah. That was a lot of fun. And then you would come down. There’s a pavilion right at the bottom of Mt. Baldie, and there would be somebody there. And they would have like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches or whatever kind of sandwiches they made. And we’d all eat there before we went back to camp. One of my brothers, my oldest brother, Jim. The one that was born up in Canada, um, I think set a record. He went up 20 times, 20 or 21 times, hiked up and ran down. [laugh] 36:32 TS: Jeez [laugh] 36:33 BK: He deserves a special t-shirt for that. 36:38 TS: Yeah. Oh man. Because I’ve done it lately, and I did it three times. And I was done. 36:42 BK: I know, right? Oh, I know, he was probably about 12 or 13 then. Lot more, lot more energy [laugh] 36:48 TS: Yeah, boundless energy back then. Oh that’s cool. Um, what was like your favorite location in camp. Was there a specific spot that you enjoyed them most? 37:00 BK: Oh. Other than the beach? Cause really the beach was, I think a big draw. Um, we had like a game area outside of the dining hall. Uh. It was down the hill a little bit. And they had shuffle board and ping pong, and they had this pole with a ball attached called tether ball. Yeah. So the games were fun too. And there was free time. And we had a lot of activities scheduled, but there was also free time, sometimes after supper or sometimes in the afternoon and you could play games. And there was also a volleyball court up on the hill. And we used to play games up there sometimes. 37:40 TS: Ok. Nice. 37:43 BK: Yeah. And we used to hike. We used to play a game called capture the flag. And we would do that in the dunes. We would go over by Oval Beach in the evening 37:52 TS: Oh, that’d be the ultimate capture the flag spot 37:53 BK: Yeah. [laugh] 37:56 TS: Fantastic. Do you keep up with any of your friends from the camping days? 38:01 BK: Um. No. Not really no. Um, I’ve heard stories of some of them going around the world, but no. Actually I won’t say I actually kept up with my friend that first invited me, Linda, but um, I did get in touch with her sister on the internet one time. Her sister, who told me that �Linda married a man whose mother owned a place in Saugatuck. So I thought that was a really, really interesting connection. Yeah. 38:35 TS: Really? Yeah. Small world isn’t it? 38:38 BK: It is 38:41 TS: So having been there as a camper for just a couple years, how did you get involved in coming back as a junior counselor and then a full counselor? 38:52 BK: Um, I guess because we sort of stayed. Because of the fact that I had brothers and sisters coming in, and also my mom coming up, and so it sort of kept some kind of loose contact and um, I just, I knew that there were opportunities there. That they needed people at camp, so yeah. 39:08 TS: What were your, um, I guess tell us, tell us about your responsibilities as counselor of the camp. 39:14 BK: Um, as a counselor, oh wow. Um. Basically I believe I’d have a cabin with some girls and um, it seems to me, well as junior counselor you didn’t have that responsibility, but as a regular counselor, you’d have responsibility for a cabin of girls. And it seems to me the girls I had were a little wild. Had a little bit of a problem keeping them under control. But yeah I was responsible for them for being there, uh, making sure they got to the activities they were supposed to and talking with them if the needed someone to talk with and things like that 39:53 TS: All right. 39:54 BK: Making sure they didn’t get lost and [laugh] 39:55 TS: [laugh] yeah. Playing capture the flag 39:59 BK: Yeah. 40:00 TS: So you were a camper when you were in like elementary school, junior high? 40:06 BK: Um, junior high yeah. Yeah. 40:08 TS: And then a counselor, a junior counselor in high school, and then a senior counselor in college? 40:12 BK: Uh huh. Yeah. I think that was sophomore year in college. Yeah. 40:14 TS: All right. 40:15 BK: I came up �40:16 TS: Did you enjoy being a counselor? 40:19 BK: um. I did. Um, it’s, it was challenging. Yeah. It was challenging. But, uh, I did. Yeah. I actually before had been a counselor at this, at Peniel camp. I was a coun, not a counselor but I ran up and um. Yeah, I was actually. I’m sorry. I’m mixing things up. Um, I had gone up to a camp in Canada called Pioneer camp. Pioneer Girls’ Camp. And it was up in the north woods of Canada. And I spent six weeks up there. So that I did after my freshman year I think it was. And then I did this after my sophomore year. 40:52 TS: So this was like a walk in the park, right? 40:54 BK: [laugh] yeah. Pioneer Girls’ camp. That, that was really, um, really a bit more rugged because we slept in tents the whole time. But they, they were huge tents. They were big canvas tents on wooden platforms. Yeah. And we had, we were actually the camp was on a lake, up in the north woods of Canada. It was beautiful. Um The mornings were chilly. Especially when it got to August. Mid or late August it was pretty chilly. Um. Yeah. But that, that was a really wonderful experience. 41:34 TS: That sounds good 41:35 BK: yeah. 41:36 TS: Different weather here. Um, what would be then, like if you had to pick one singular camp memory from your time as a camper and a counselor, is there anything that stands out to you ? Like this is a story I tell 41:46 BK: Oh my goodness. Uh. Wow. Hm. I can’t, you know I can’t think so much of something distinctive when I was a camper other than just, you know, enjoying the environment and um, hm. That, that’s a hard one. Yeah, I really, you know, I have different memories of different things, but it’s hard to think of something that was distinctive. 42:20 TS: yeah. That’s understandable. Um, you talked about the Shack and the snacks 42:25 BK: [laugh] the candy shack 42:29 TS: Yeah. So, what sort of facilities were there then. So you had your cabins, and you had the game area, and the dining hall. Was there, what, what was the layout of the buildings I mean? 42:40 BK: Um, they were all on the side of the sand dunes. So you would come in on the road that led off the Oval Beach road. Is that Ferry? It has a name, but I can’t remember 42:52 TS: I think it’s Ferry 42:56 BK: Ferry goes down the bottom of it. And it might be Perryman, I think that goes up the hill. Yeah. Well at any rate, you get how, like half way up. It’s where that whole new �development is now. Um, but you go beyond their main gate and there’s another road, sort of a backroad. And that’s where you went in to Pineal Camp. That road. Um. And so you would come up the road, and it would be at like a little bit of an incline. And then to, to your right would be I think the chapel. Small building was the chapel. It was also game and craft room, so first, in the early morning it would be a chapel, and then later on it would be a craft room or a game room whatever. Pretty flexible. And on Sunday we always had a church service in there. And then across from that was the shuffleboard and the game stuff, and then above that was the dining hall. And then in between would be the director’s cabin, and then to the left of that, just on the ravine was the candy shack. And then there was the cook’s cabin, which my mom stayed in, and there was another staff cabin over there. And there was another, then you’d go up the hill and there’d be some more cabins. Smaller cabins. And then as I said there was that one big cabin up in the near the top of the hill. Which had, I think, two main rooms and probably four bunkbeds in each of those rooms. Often the younger campers would stay in those. I don’t know why they put them at the top, but whatever. So they’d have to pass everybody else when they were on their way out or trying to escape [laugh]. Something like that. Um, yeah. So basically you would come in off the road and then you would go up the hill, and then the cabins would be like up a mountainside, but a dune side. Until you got to the top of the hill. And then that was where the volley ball court was. 44:48 TS: All right. That’s excellent. Um 44:50 BK: And no showers by the way. If you wanted a shower you had to go down to the, one of the staff cabins. And then underneath was a shower area. 45:00 TS: underneath the cabin? [laugh] 45:01 BK: [laugh] Yeah. I mean it was up, I mean it was raised up on you know 45:04 TS: yeah. 45:05 BK: Yeah. But I’m just saying like the first floor, the lower floor was the shower room. Where’d you go take uh, if you wanted a shower. 45:13 TS: So you guys didn’t take your soap down to Lake Michigan and 45:15 BK: No, but that’s funny. When I was up at the camp that was up in Canada, and I know that’s a whole another story, but, um, they would wash in the lake. Mmhm. Yeah. 45:22 TS: All right. I can see the whole thing in my head now 45:27 BK: [laugh] 45:28 TS: And how did your mom get involved? 45:32 BK: I guess just because of the fact that I, um, you know she had children, several children going to the camp. I think, um I had a brother Steve who lived here. You may, may or �may not know about him. He and his partner Jen, um own the Joes and Heath (?) Colonial Inn. The B&B. Mm hm. 45:48 TS: Ok. Yeah. 45:52 BK: So, um, he, he came to camp. I’m sorry. I lost my train of thought. What I was talking about 46:02 TS: Um, oh. Your mom and having 46:03 BK: Mom. Yes. So anyway, he says he came as a camper. I don’t remember. I guess I was maybe in college by then and I didn’t, I don’t really know. Or maybe I was even married by then. Um. At any rate, yeah he came as a camper, but he also came with my mom. I guess he came with my mom first maybe, and then came as a camper. Um, and so, and also as I mentioned Pineal was managed, directed whatever, out of this community center on the north side of Chicago. And they had programs for um, children and mothers and families and whatever. So my mother would go up there sometimes to, you know. Yeah. 46:47 TS: I, I can’t remember if you said the name of that community center 46:52 BK: Pineal 46:53 TS: Pineal. That makes sense right? 46:53 BK: Pineal Center it was called [laugh]. Yeah. Pineal Center, and they ran Pineal Camp. 47:00 TS: What, um, do you remember any of the menus your mom made? You mentioned that she took a different approach to the food 47:05 BK: To the food. Yeah, yeah, well, that’s basically was her area of responsibility. So she did what she could to try and make kid friendly 47:15 TS: Yeah. And I’m sure everyone appreciated that 47:17 BK: I think so 47:18 TS: Powdered milk is out 47:19 BK: Yeah. Yeah, you know. It was different days then. I mean today people, powdered milk, what is that? Some people cook with it I guess still, but 47:29 TS: That’s true. And what, um, you may have said it already, what was your mother’s name? 47:35 BK: Reeny. Mmhm. �47:37 TS: Cool. Um, did all of your siblings pass through Camp Pineal? 47:42 BK: Um, I think so because Steven was the youngest, my, my brother. Who I just mentioned? 47:46 TS: Yeah. 47:47 BK: And he’s the youngest of the family so yeah. I guess everyone did. 47:52 TS: All right. And how many siblings did you say you have? 47:54 BK: Uh, seven 47:56 TS: 7, that’s what I thought. Ok. Yeah. Lot of kids 47:58 BK: Yeah. It was, um, it was a wonderful thing for a family of a lot of children you know, just to be able to, to do that. To go away so inexpensively and you know, have that kind of experience 48:10 TS: Yeah. And summer must have been uh fun time for your parents with 7 kids out on the loose right? 48:15 BK: [laugh] 8 actually 48:17 TS: 8. Yeah. 8 total. Yeah. 48:22 BK: Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah. There was enough space between us that the older ones took care of the younger ones. 48:27 TS: Oh that’s good 48:28 BK: yeah. 48:30 TS: I’ll bet. Yeah. Well, what um, are there any other details or images or memories or 48:37 BK: Oh goodness. Yeah, wow. I think I’ve. Let me think is there anything else. It’s funny because I was talking with my sister I said I don’t remember a lot. And she said “Oh sure you do.” And we started talking about it. But now it’s like, I think I told you everything I can remember. Um. Yeah. The only other thing—oh! You asked about the boats that we went on 49:00 TS: Yeah. 49:01 BK: The paddle wheel. I forgot that one. We, we have been on it numerous times because just because everybody that comes to visit us we take on that boat. 49:12 TS: All right �49:13 BK: Yeah. So. Wyatt and I really enjoy it. The old star of Saugatuck. Yeah. It was there when we were campers. I don’t remember if we ever went on it when we were campers. I think probably not. But certainly saw it 49:25 TS: Yeah. Ok. yeah 49:27 BK: It’s been around a long time 49:29 TS: And you, you still enjoy taking it to this day then? 49:30 BK: Yeah. Yeah. It’s probably been a year or two since we’ve been on it, but yeah. A couple years ago we had some cousins from Wisconsin come to, and we took them on it 49:40 TS: It’s a great tour 49:41 BK: mmhm. It is. It really is. We also like to go on the sunset tour. That, that. I think that’s the best, provided there’s a sunset, but even so it’s nice to take an evening boat ride 49:52 TS: Yeah, on a nice summer day. 49:54 BK: uh huh. yeah 49:57 TS: I helped out with, uh, I worked on the boat a little bit last year. 49:59 BK: oh did you? 50:00 TS: And my girlfriend works on it this year. My mom actually works on it too, so I’ve, you know, we’ve crossed paths in our various 50:08 BK: yeah. I guess so. yeah 50:10 TS: Associations around town. Yeah. All right Camp Pineal. I guess we can move toward the, the uh. These questions here. I guess an obvious one is, um, that property’s been sold, you know. What do you think about what’s happening now? 50:31 BK: uh, well, I would have done whatever I could have to try and save it. Um, a lot of emails went back and forth among my siblings and the camp. And we just felt so bad it was being sold, that other kids wouldn’t have the chance to experience what we did. Um, but probably my sister and I, my sister Jennifer and I are the oldest, and we probably feel, felt the most keenly. Um, my brothers were more philosophical, and said well, it had its time and now it’s moved on to something else, yeah, um, but yeah. I, I, am really sorry that it went. I just think it was such a fantastic opportunity for kids and families to just come and really enjoy the area and enjoy the beauty of the lake, and you know, the woods and the dunes, and now, well what could I say? Progress. Yeah. Some people call it progress. [laugh] �51:32 TS: Yup, yup 51:34 BK: but to me, um I felt really sad about it 51:40 TS: Yeah. Yeah. Well then what, I suppose this is a hard question, but if you could sum up what Camp Pineal and Camp Gray and your time there, what it meant for you, just in general in your life, and your outlook and your perspective 51:55 BK: yeah. Uh. That’s a hard one, um, it had a very positive influence on me. Um. I think in terms of my faith, I wouldn’t say that it was that strong then, but I think that it probably planted seeds in me, and just um, I mean my family had, all my family had gone to church really, but there was something about camp. There was a spirit there that, um, I don’t know. Just kind of awakened a spiritual hunger in me. And, uh, yeah I’m just always thankful um, that I had that opportunity. And it, it’s an interesting thing. Because I told you we live now in Douglas, and how that came about I mean we had been from Chicago and certainly were familiar with this area and had come up on vacation sometimes when our children were small. And then we moved out to the east coast, and I don’t think we didn’t come back again until our older daughter was in college 53:08 TS: Ok. 53:09 BK: Actually later than that. She went to law school at the University of Michigan. And so we decided one summer when she was out there in Ann Arbor, um, to all meet up for vacation. And we said “Why don’t we go to Saugatuck? We haven’t been there in years.” And so we came, and so we did. And we rented a cabin on Lake Michigan, um, actually down in Glenn. But we were right at the top of the dune where you could look down over the water. Incredible. So beautiful 53:42 TS: Beautiful view 53:45 BK: Um, my daughter had been going through kind of a stressful time. You know, law school’s not easy, but actually this was at the start of law school now that I think about it, but she had been going through some stress and it was such an incredible, beautiful, relaxing time. And so we kind of got reacquainted with the area again. And then we came up to Saugatuck and, I don’t think it was that year. It was maybe a year later, and we were looking around, and our daughters said “Why don’t, we like this place so much, why don’t we have a place here?” I said “Well I don’t know if we could afford it. I don’t” and, but we had been talking about getting a vacation home. And so we were looking around and, uh, and then we came back home and it was, the Fall um, you know we hadn’t made any decision. We had looked at a number of properties from Glen all the way up to Saugatuck. Um, and then this one condo we, we had looked at came, was up for sale, and the realtor called us and said, uh, one, the one place that we really liked. She said “Somebody else has put a bid on it.” But she said “there might be an opening for you.” And we thought, oh, we really did, did want to be here. We really did want to have a place. So we put a bid in, and the other people dropped out, and we got it. So here we are. We’ve been here 11 years now �55:09 TS: That’s great. Yeah. 55:11 BK: Yeah. So that, it was funny how, it was something like how from our past that had really been a place that we enjoyed and had good family memories from, uh then serendipitously you might say we reconnected with our daughter going to law school in Ann Arbor 55:30 TS: That’s pretty amazing 55:32 BK: Yeah 55:33 TS: And your brother’s here too, right 55:34 BK: Yeah. And then, yeah. What happened like three or four years ago, um, we always have a big family party on Labor Day. We invited everybody to come up, anybody that wants to on Labor Day, the weekend. And, um, he and his girlfriend Jen came up, and um, they stayed at uh, they stayed in town at one of the, the other rental, and um, I don’t know. They’d been thinking about it, talking about it a lot, but they found out a house was for sale. Actually it was owned by a family which we knew. We knew for years. Um, and he called me and said, uh, “do you have a contact number for them?” he said “I’d like to talk to them about, about their house.” And that’s how that started. I guess about 3 or 4 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So now my brother is like really, really cemented in the community. 56:28 TS: His inn, yeah. 56:29 BK: Yeah. He really put his heart and soul into, into building that place 56:32 TS: It’s a cool looking place. Yeah, yeah. 56:34 BK: Or rebuilding it, yeah. 56:35 TS: So he’s here year around then, huh 56:38 BK: Yeah. Well, they just opened up, um, they had their first guests I think, uh, late spring. Yeah 56:44 TS: Yeah 56:45 BK: Yeah. 56:46 TS: Excellent 56:48 BK: Spent about two years of rehabbing it. Restoring. Yeah. 56:50 TS: Yeah, that’s, that’s a big task. 56:54 BK: yeah. Incredible property, uh, so now he’s an anchor in town. �57:00 TS: You know, it’s fascinating that your friends came up to this camp, then you came up to the camp, and then your siblings and your mom, and then you guys came back later and you guys 57:07 BK: Yeah, yeah. All hinged on my one friend Linda Cahill [laugh] 57:10 TS: [laugh] All credit to her, right? That’s really cool. Um, I thought another question but I lost it. [pause] Well. We can plod at the ones on the list. What are some of your hopes for the future, for yourself, for your family members, or your community? 57:31 BK: Mm. Oh my goodness. 57:34 TS: Narrow easy to answer questions here 57:35 BK: [laugh] yeah right? Uh, well you know there’s always a balance between, um, keeping things the way they are and making progress and improving things. And so yeah, um, from a selfish point of view you want to keep as much open space as possible. Um, but then you realize that, um, in order to have the amenities that people want, changes have to happen. Things have to be, uh, old things sometimes have to be torn down. New things built up. Um, so I guess I’m hoping that as much open space can be preserved as possible. That, that, they’re, they won’t get so crowded, um, that it won’t be as enjoyable as it is. Yeah. But then you know. Why shouldn’t people enjoy it? So yeah, you know, it’s a selfish point of view just wanting to keep things just as they are, um, or wanting others to enjoy it as well without getting to the point where it’s too crowded, too busy. Um. One of the things that we love about here compared to the east coast is event when, when it’s crowded it’s never like it is out there where you sit in traffic jams on single lane roads for well hour, could be hours. It’s um, well, I love Cape Cod. But, we have not been out there in years. Probably since we bought this place. Um. But, uh, you, you have, it’s just as beautiful here as it is on Cape Cod to me. Um. With half the traffic. Half the crowds. And a lot less expense. For us to have the same condo out there would be at least twice the price or three times. 59:37 TS: Oh man. you did it right then 59:40 BK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s um no it’s one of, like some people say one of the best kept secrets. People from the east coast and the west coast too, they, they know the ocean. Which is fantastic. But Lake Michigan is not a lake. As, you know, talking to people they say “Oh lakes are nice.” It’s not a lake. It’s a great lake, it’s like an inland sea. And we have had friends come to visit as say, standing on the beach say “You wouldn’t know this wasn’t the ocean.” They don’t realize, you know you look out, as far as you can see on the horizon, it’s water. Except for the fact of course the waves and the roughness of the ocean is different, and salt water, too, but um, it’s every bit as beautiful. And, in some ways, nicer I think. Yeah. 1:00:33 understand TS: That’s a good perspective. The ocean versus the lake. A lot of people don’t �1:00:37 BK: Yeah, they don’t they, if they haven’t been to the Midwest they have no idea what it, what a great lake is like 1:00:42 TS: No. yeah. Yeah. Seeing it on the map does not do it justice in person. That is for sure. Um. Would you want your children to go into your line of work? We haven’t talked about your line of work 1:00:54 BK: [laugh] Retired 1:00:59 TS: Would you like them to be retired? 1:01:02 BK: Actually, God willing, um, um, no, so do you want to talk about what I did? 1:01:08 there TS: Yeah, we’ll talk about what was your line of work and then we can go from 1:01:13 BK: Um. Well, I worked a lot in media, in fact for the 20 years before I retired I worked in the New York Times. And, um, I worked in research. And I really enjoyed what I did. Yeah. In fact, one of the, um, big projects that I had, ongoing projects, was reader panel, where, um we maintained the, um a panel of a couple of thousand readers would give us their opinions on various things, and so I got involved in writing surveys and analyzing results and reports. And it was interesting to me because it was never the same thing all the time. So that was a lot of variety. Which I enjoyed. I get bored if I have to do the same thing all the time. As most people do 1:02:04 TS: Yeah. Yeah. 1:02:05 Yeah. BK: But, um, anyway I retired about ten years ago. So. Oh actually, nine years. 1:02:12 TS: Congratulations on that. 1:02:14 BK: [laugh] and then for a couple, and then for a few years, I actually have a degree in counseling. Masters in counseling, so for a few years I worked at a women’s community center. And that was, that was very enjoyable. Yeah. I liked that a lot. But right now I’m, I’m just doing things with my family and traveling and enjoying Saugatuck. 1:02:38 TS: Good. 1:02:39 BK: In summer. Saugatuck Douglas I should say. Right 1:02:44 TS: Um, looking back on your career as research at the New York Times and as a counselor, would that be something you would have wanted your children to go into? 1:02:54 BK: Oh, both my daughters are teachers. One is teaching at inner city school in Philadelphia. Um, the other one is a PhD candidate, and she was teaching at college level, and �this year she’s in a special program, um for graduate students, well for PhD students, um, at the university of Pennsylvania. Uh. It’s a wonderful opportunity. She’s in history. So, if I had to do it again, I think I might have become a teacher. And I’m glad that they’re teachers. Yeah. So. 1:03:33 TS: All right. I understand that. Yeah. I taught as well 1:03:38 BK: Yeah, I think it’s, uh, I did, at the community center I taught, um, work readiness program. So I, um, worked with women. Inner city women, who were, uh, trying to get back into the work force. And that was a wonderful experience. 1:03:54 TS: Very nice. Very cool. A useful profession. That is for sure. 1:03:58 BK: Mm. A challenging profession. 1:04:01 TS: Yes. Very challenging. Yeah. That’s not a job you get to leave at home. 1:04:05 BK: Yeah. Yeah. 1:04:10 TS: Um. What do you think are some of the greatest needs currently facing your family and/ or your community? 1:04:16 BK: [pause] hm [pause]. Huh. Greatest needs. Huh. I don’t know. Well [pause] hm. How to say this? Um. Saugatuck is a wonderful party town. If you like to party. There’s tons of stuff to do, you know especially being in the outdoors. Um. I’m probably going to say, I think the greatest need is spiritual. I think that sometimes I feel a little emptiness, a little shallowness, like it’s uh, yeah. Um, it’s, it’s easy to, uh, especially when there’s a lot of money, it’s easy to get caught up in just having fun, and I think there’s more to life than just having fun. [pause] [laugh] 1:05:26 TS: That is true 1:05:26 BK: Is that kind of negative? 1:05:29 TS: No. It’s not 1:05:30 BK: Um. Yeah. So you know, I think it’s important to value people, um, I think faith is important too. I believe this is not all there is. And there’s an emptiness if you think this is all there is and this is all you live for. Just to have fun. So fun is great. I’m not against fun. Or having a good time, enjoying, you know, whatever resources you’ve been blessed to have. Um, but I also think you need to care about others. You need to care about um, people in need. Yeah. 1:06:08 TS: That’s not a negative approach at all. It’s not. I think that’s wonderful advice. Um. Remembering that this interview will be saved for a long time, when someone listens to this tape, 50 plus years from now, what would you most like them to know about your life and community now in 2018. �1:06:27 BK: Oh my goodness. About the community? Um. [pause] well I hope that it becomes more and more of a welcoming place. Um. [pause] we, how should I say this? We’ve often commented, my family has commented on the fact that you hardly ever see minorities in town. Um, of course we don’t want to go back to where it was in the 60’s where riots and police had to come in. You know. And you know. Everyone wants a nice place to come to. Yeah. But I guess I would like to see more types of people just enjoying, being able to enjoy what’s here. Um. As for myself [pause] what I would like people to remember about me? Well two things are important to me: one is my love of God, and the other is my love of family. And I hope that um, that I will have had had a positive impact on other people because of those things. 1:08:02 TS: Ok. Very good. Um segwaying onto that. Any advice for a young person who may listen to this tape, perhaps 50 years in the future, or 5 years in the future. 1:08:14 BK: Oh, advice, uh, yeah. I would say that this life is not all there is, and don’t live as if, don’t live just for yourself. Remember that God created for a purpose, and you need to seek that purpose. 1:08:37 TS: Excellent. All right. Anything else that you would like to share that I may not have asked you about? Anything you want to describe, get off your chest? Put down for posterity? Any details we missed? 1:08:51 BK: I can’t think of anything else [pause] I don’t know. I, no doubt when I walk away from here I’ll think oh I could have told him about this, or I could have told him about that, or how come I forgot, but right now I think we’ve pretty well covered [laugh]. Yeah. It seems like we have. 1:09:17 TS: Well right. Well. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your memories with me. This concludes the interview 1:09:27 BK: Right 1:09:27 TS: [laugh] interview ends 1:09:29 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-KiszonasB-20180721 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kiszonas, Barbara Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-21 Title A name given to the resource Barbara Kizonas (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Barbara Kiszonas grew up on the South side of Chicago but shares memories of spending summers in Saugatuck-Douglas as a camper and as a camp councilor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, Tyler (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Camping Beaches Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ecae43eab3405843dafa7ff7069708e7.m4v 2492e61fdb717bb64225f1f9309df4b6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4f8c667b453020ca1931fa787066f47e.pdf fa29c40bc8952ab37e9421fef8184146 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Herb Kitchens Cold War (Post-Vietnam War) 12 minutes 29 seconds *Note: Times on the outline correspond with the interview’s timecode (02:48:40) Early Life -Born on October 24, 1940, in Bauxite, Arkansas -Grew up in Arkansas -Attended college in Arkansas and served a pastor in Arkansas for 12 years before enlisting -Attended the Missionary Baptist Seminary in Little Rock, Arkansas -Became a pastor part of the American Baptist Association -Got a lot of experience as a pastor before joining the Army (02:50:22) Enlisting in the Army -He was attending graduate school and a friend planned on becoming a Navy chaplain -Herb talked with his friend about the chaplaincy and some of the benefits -Wanted to work with soldiers, and felt he had a patriotic duty to fulfill -He was in seminary during the Vietnam War, so he couldn’t serve -First considered joining the Air Force, because Little Rock Air Force Base was nearby -Turned down because the Air Force had already met its quota of chaplains -Navy didn’t appeal to him because he couldn’t swim -Decided to join the Army in 1974 (02:52:10) Basic Chaplain’s Course & Stationed at Fort Hood -Attended the basic chaplain’s course at Fort Wadsworth, New York (after being at Fort Hood) -Took nine weeks to complete that course -Went on active duty after having a medical complication dealt with -Sent to Fort Hood, Texas, without a uniform and before he took the basic chaplain’s course -Signed into Fort Hood in October 1974, didn’t go to the course until January 1975 -Not unusual for chaplains to do that at the time -Spent his first three years in the Army at Fort Hood (aside from training) -Assistant chaplain in the division artillery of the 2nd Armored Division (02:54:56) Stationed in West Germany -Sent to West Germany in 1977 -Part of the 12th Engineer Battalion (attached to the 8th Infantry Division) on the Rhine River -Tour in Germany lasted three years -He loved his time in Germany -Learned how to drive a bulldozer so he could help the engineers -Inadvertently drove through a tank firing range, fortunately nothing happened -Gave him and his family a chance to travel around Europe and see the famous cathedrals -Part of a great unit �-He was made the post chaplain at Anderson Barracks near Dexheim, Germany -Worked with the German civilian clergy (02:57:40) Advanced Chaplain’s Course -Returned to the United States in the summer of 1980 -Went to the advanced chaplain’s course at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey -Lasted from the summer of 1980 to around Christmas 1980 (02:59:03) Stationed at Fort Hood (Second Time) -Sent back to Fort Hood, Texas, and was assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division -Made the 2nd Brigade chaplain -Did that for three years -First time being a supervisory chaplain -Good learning experience -Formed long-lasting friendships at Fort Hood during his second time there (03:00:22) Chaplain’s School -Received orders to go to the Chaplain’s School to serve with the staff and faculty -Had to get a master’s degree in education to be able to work at the Chaplain’s School -Choice of studying near Fort Hood, or near Fort Monmouth <Tape ends before the interview is completed> � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KitchensH2063V Title A name given to the resource Kitchens, Herbert E (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-27 Description An account of the resource Herb Kitchens was born on October 24, 1940, in Bauxite, Arkansas. Prior to joining the Army, he attended the Missionary Baptist Seminary in Little Rock, Arkansas, and served as a pastor for 12 years. He joined the Army as a chaplain in 1974. He was assigned to Fort Hood, Texas, in October 1974, but didn't take his basic chaplain's course at Fort Wadsworth, New York, until January 1975. He spent his first three years in the Army at Fort Hood and served as an assistant chaplain in the division artillery of the 2nd Armored Division. He was sent to West Germany in 1977 and was assigned to the 12th Engineer Battalion at Anderson Barracks near Dexheim, Germany. He returned to the United States in the summer of 1980 and took the advanced chaplain's course at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. He returned to Fort Hood and served as the brigade chaplain of 2nd Brigade of the 1st Cavalry Division for three years. After Fort Hood, he received orders to go to the Chaplain's School and serve as part of the staff and faculty. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kitchens, Herbert Earl Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keizer, Herman Jr. (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988--Personal narratives, American Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/82c0659dc850a3ab34a429066da42439.pdf d266ff9f98e620c643bcb3b22ed04447 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Klagen, Antworten und Urteile, gezogen aus geistlichen und weltlichen Rechten [folium 68] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_068Klagen1500 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Klagen Description An account of the resource One leaf from Klagen, Antworten und Urteile, gezogen aus geistlichen und weltlichen Rechten by Klagen. Printed in Augsburg by Johann Schönsperger in 1500. [GW M16329; ISTC ik00026000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Augsburg: Johann Schönsperger Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource de Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/557f2fb24381255ead83ed0d23d7ef2a.pdf 81935905e87e6a9ec2b084b40352fc89 PDF Text Text Geo b fv6-i1,H; 4-u-1 Is r0 Of SPl!C,IH. f1 /},y ..,, 11"1-" /(_ II-tit) e;J,( /<1/'U) 1)e l!O.$. ;::,~ rI1=-r-t , a.'/ w t SH tC yA-SSl.) ~ ,-;:. 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(li4-~,_,.. ~n,n1. f('f..v 1!,,t_ N W fvh~/l,,1U.5 IV t fCO~r;~ lJ r (,o~"lr.:.<.. 11- c~•i ' P S71>rUt L1ly1µc. conrr;RSTOFE CERE}'O"·r !S SEALING OF THt BOX S.die Gross an ' s.muel Kl ayf /0 ,+ CEREl'ONIES - -- - - - - -- - ---,:s~Y "'J,..... iB""O_L_l...c-=r...;LACirG OF THE CORNERSTO}lE-OCCIDENTAL HOTEL First row, L. TO R. - Jlrs . Sars. Ashendorf,Abe Scc.ookler , Ru ben Bernan , Sariuel Lmpm.n , J-..!orris Kantor , Joseph Strifline , Robert Cherin , Eli Snith, Herman lfencieison, Sam Rosenbaum, Tony Aron, Harry Fisher , Luiwi ? Dqrnsted ter, Maurice Friend . Top row, L. toR. - Leo s. ROSen , R~bbi Essri g of Gr~nd Rapids , Saliie Grossman , J . KeJ.!ty K.ufm.ih . �1$ ,, IIt+ ,~ ,, CORNERSTONE CEREI~ONIES AT THE SIGHT AFTER SETTirG OF THE STONE L . TO R. -H.enry Darrnstedter , Hynan Lip~.n , Hortense Berrnan , Ifarold Siverm,m , Samuel Klayf , Carl VerWert , Lyle White , Leo S. Rosen , Florence Rosen , Sid Strifldmg , Jean Berm~n,Fred Ro'off , J.ick Lipman coRrERSTOlTE CERE! mn i.:s AT THE S IGllT AFT"GR S~TTIITG OF THE STOrE L. TO R. - }'-or.ris Bernstein , Henry D~rJJl'stedter , l-~x Rosenberg , l.fax Le'bow,Abe SchrJookler , Hortense Berm:an , Eli Smith , Jean Berm~n , Hyman Lipman , Si' St rifling , Herman llenaelson ,Samuel Kl ayf , Joseph Strifling , Harry Fi sher , Fred Rodoff , Amflreu Epstein, J.ck Lipman lJ p, '-TO f..tL JL-/ t)Ci)rc lt'TIOt-• o-,::.. (_ 3 r1('t..;~ 'Tf!,) f (, I) r;..1i TP..n P1.. . r.: /t f"} K0 v. 1-..1, r'frr / ~- i) f~,) 1 t.. fl TJ O I'< (!_fA,Jz ,id If y. DEDICATION OF THE TEl- PLE- SUNDAY, TTOVE1tBER 21, 1948 Reading frv.o left to right.Sa uel Klayf , Herbert Fisher, Rabbi S 2r.uel U en , Leo s. Rosen , Professor Louir Wirth, Paul 11 . Wiener , J . Kelly Kauf an, Sa uel Lip an , Harol i Rosen . �DF I Jir1~A I U !1/! 1\I I f'.-/d oc. r1FI u /'( t,,t,-, r2TH · 11. ~o-..,lf... - {l7', 5'/,:;, ~,) 1>,../ S. ~oSP.,y TESTn~oNIAL DIN?-TER IN HONOR OF LEO S. ROSEN, NOV. 21 , 1948 L. TOR. at Speakers T~ble :-Marth~ Gu~elsky,Bea Lipm.i.n,S;;i.muel Liprnan,V.rs. Samuel Umen,Rabbi S:-rnuel Umen , s~Jie Grossman , Thelma Wiener ,Paul Wiener , ?C1 Florence tRosa~ ,Leo Rosen, Harriet Klayf ,SamuelKlayf, Hortense Berman,Harry s. Berman , Mrs . Ruben Berman , Ruben Berman , Sif Strifling ,Joseph Strifling . AT SHALL TABLE: - Bern.rd Fisher,Betty Fisher,l.erriam Fisher,Kurt Rosen , Karen Rosen �® 1.. £c / NSll)t! - '[3u 1...Lr:! n "' ,q.,,._, /\I '?ef'l-01-,t.tJ-r; p,tgip,·•Lr' S-O ..__, LS:. Tr F/4.S f v-io r,-J<,~ 17 frN"' n /1-5o1'f (+-'t '/) (\//\I~,(_ 1 W L/o f'1 IC:. '-JOU ) I 1) t; "'nr-1 . I ~ 1- ( ~'( C..D l'-l Fi.# r-11+ -r• '-.t-. 0 ,-( /.JAff.>"( f?)~t"t rt~,,., rJ ~I--IZ1'l (+-&.S G,v,)f&1,t;1, / Si"' 6- /:,A- pl r; <-4 I ~ ~ (':)ft/£ V Jr n //f.,,c.•£. ,-J/r.,tUJ /t..l-1': I"'' /}-n,;/(_ ,c.,4,,1 , SM fJ(l,t P+ ':J) . pµ~. A c;:... ~ (,J,µ"- ,::, ~10 1lf1.,1c.1,J,;t'..J\ 1l,1,!11' M ...J/5S ,,,_" 1...Jl.1,'1-l'I r y?ffc}6-,(,i'<.\I"/ Ct./-1J1Ar•1Jr.. �t , I! 1:11 ·3-::, lJ-J ; c_ j)f.c!J1>f!.. rI¥ I l.. o F- !-I fJ DI}~ s/+H ;' 'l 'p11,1rH ~> Jl~'I v~s Pits, ., ~It. 1-l-00 D pf C ~-,.s. e,. OF . S"i . y If f\J 1 jJ flD 3J ~ ?IJ 51 <..1.f II I p.,, fU\/._... , U-f,_,,;.:._n '~"' ~ {,<A. I 1e: 7 I()16 r ,~~ T(v ,,, 1tT i /fl I ... 1./-) 0:. f} SS (2.., ,-,, R~st.,i( / .J (ff- CoNr-.< t}~lt tf<5 lf'R~().).)..( '1 '- /11) IC ,;.r1 ,0(1.., -..) ~t:-F~ J....tw1 S t, -i D I ,-,. )l._n,,,., {)If_. ,, /:-(/1 'j)tf),c,tfJON 1s'-tf~'-' ;z~ot-1 0 '7 ro) ,( yov �, C) 1/J MUSKEGON HOUSE OF JEWISH WORSHIP MUSKEGON, MICHIGAN November 17, 1947 President LEOS. ROSEN Vice-President J. M. KAUFMAN Secretary JACK LAWSON Mr. Sam Klayf, President Congregation B1 Nai Israel, c/o Grossman• s Dept. Store, Muskegon, Michigan. Treasurer FRED RODOFF Dear Sam: ,~lee,J As arranged with Morris Teles, Chairman of the Committee for Corner-Stone Gere.monies, I am pleased to herewith send you, in duplicate, information contained in this letter and various enclosures for use in connection 'With the ceremonies at the time of laying the corner-stone for the l1uskegon House of Jewish Worship. Each of these is f'urther explained in the sepu-ate pi.ragraphs following: MAURICE GOLDEN SAM KLAYF SAM LIPMAN HAROLD ROSEN FRED STEIN JOSEPH STRIFLING PAUL WIENER ~l/g;~ ABE ASHENDORF CHARLES LOCKE SAM PRICE HAROLD SILVERMAN SOL SILVERMAN 1. ORGANIZATION The Muskegon House of Jewish Worship is a Michigan non-profit corporation, which was organized June 24, 1938 for the purpose of formula.ting and carrying out the necessary plans to provide our Congregation B1 Nai Israel with a Je'Wish Center Building. The accompmying sheet designated "Exhibit A11 shows the names of the original incorporators and officers. This letterhead shows the names of the officers, trustees, and members of the building committee who have functioned in their respective caIScities since 1943. /?/uttdv,'? '&mmil-Cee Co-Chairmen J.M. KAUFMAN and HAROLD ROSEN Members HERBERT FISHER SAM KLAYF PAUL WIENER 2. SCOFE OF PROJECT The enclosed brochure titled 11The Muskegon Je'Wish Community's Dream Sha.11 be Fulfilled" presents the scope and philosopey of our planning in connection with this project. 3. METHOD OF FINANCING Financing the project was accomplished by contributions or pledges obtained princil8lly from our own members over a series of sepirate camp:l.igns which were conducted in 1941, 1943, 1945, and 1947. The accompuzyi.ng list marked "Exhibit B" shows the names of these various members wb:>se contributions made this project possible. A supplemental list marked ''Exhibit C11 shows the names of non-member contributors, soma being f'riends and relatives of our members, and soma being business associates. - 1 - �Sam Klayf, President Congregation B1 Nai Israel, c/o Grossman's Dept. Store, Muskegon, Michigan. Mr. 11/17/47 - 2 - 4. ARCHITECTS, CONTRACTOR, Etc, The architects for the building were Grunsfeld, Yerkes, Lichtmann and Koenig of Chicago, Illinois. The associate and supervising architect was E. E. Valentine of Muskegon, Michigan. The general contractor was Strom and Strom of Muskegon, Michigan. They broke ground the middle of October 1946. According to present indications, the building within 60 days will have the roof on, the windows installed, and temporary heating in operation; and by late spring 1948 it should be completed. 5. PHOTOGRAPH OF OFFICERS, :OOARD AND BUil,DING COMMITTEE MEMBERS Also accompanying this letter is a picture, designated "Exhibit D11 of you, the various officers, board members, and connnittee members, whose names above mentioned are shown on this letterhead. It is :no' wish and request that one set of this material be sealed in the metal box to be encased in the corner-stone and preserved for posterity. The conception of this entire project and its execution has not been without many trials and tribulations. As a motivating individual in both conceiving and carrying out this program, and as the only one who has occupied the office of President of this organization, I p:iss on to the Jewry of Greater Muskegon the sincere hope that both the young and the yet unborn generations will find in this Jewish Center a heritage to stimulate and enrich their lives in ways spiritual, cultural, and social. LSR:LE Enc. �MUSKEGON HOUSE OF JEWISH WORSHIP In behalf of Congregation B'nai Israel Cornerstone Laying Ceremonies Program OCCIDENTAL HOTEL BALLROOM Muskegon, Michigan November 25, 1947 Kislev 13, 5708 �America . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ensemble Jnyocation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Rabbi Herman Kieval Opening Remarks .............................. Leo S. Rosen Reading of Scripture ...... ... ........... Rabbi Jacob Klitzner Acceptance of records . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Samuel G. Klay£ Presentation of records: 1. Sisterhood . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mrs. Harry S. Berman 2. B'nai B'rith . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Francis Fine 3. United Jewish Charities ................ J. M. Kaufman 4. Mona View Cemetery Association . . . . . Milton Steindler 5. Hadassah . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mrs. Charles Locke 6. Congregation B'nai Israel . . . . . . . . . . . . Harold Silverman 7. House of Jewish Worship ................ Harold Rosen 8. Zionist Organization of America . . . . . . . . Max Rosenberg g. History of Community . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mrs. Fred Rodoff Signing and depositing this program (see facing page) Sealing of Box . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mrs. Isaac Grossman Blessing of Thanksgiving Abraham Shmookler Laying of Cornerstone ........................ Paul M. Wiener Wielding of trowel ....... Robert Cherin, Morris Friend, Samuel Lipman, Herman Mendleson, Nathan Price, Samuel Rosenbaum, I. Rubinsky, Sol Silverman, Eli Smith, Jos. Strifling. Address .................................. Rabbi Harry Essrig Hatik vah . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ensemble �CONTENTS OF BOX: 1. Statement from Sisterhood. 2. Statement from B'nai B'rith. 3. U. J. C. program of 1946-47. Officers of 1947-48. 4. Statement from Mona View Cemetary Association. 5. Statement from Hadassah. 6. Acts of Incorporation of Congregation B'nai Israel. Names of present officers. 7. Statement from House of Jewish Worship. Officers and donors. Photograph of officers and trustees. Names of architects. 8. Statement from ZOA. 9. History of the Community. 10. This program. In witness of the depositing of the above records at the cornerstone laying ceremonies, we hereunto subscribe our names this 25th day of November, 1947, corresponding to the 13th day of Kislev, 5708. Mrs. S. Ashendorf Dr. Ralph V. August ................................... . Ruben Berman ........................................ . Harry Fisher .......................................... . Komma Gudelsky ..................................... . Hyman Lipman, Registrar ............................. . Dr. Phillip Miller ...................................... . Duplicates of these documents will be available for inspection in our library. �Music by \Varner Galombeck. Accompanist, Mrs. Tony Aron. Decorations and refreshments by Mrs. Harry S. Berman, Mrs. Harry Fisher, Mrs. Leo S. Rosen. Program Chairman - Dr. Morris Teles �RABBI AARON <.;OHEN Born-July 4th, 1879 Deceased-May 21st. 1944 Rabbi serving the Congregation, Sons of Israel. was possessed of a breadth of vision and a background of education. travel. and experience which projected his influence well beyond the confines of his rabbical duties. That breadth of vision made him a man of exceptional worth to his community as he freely gave of his services in civic as well as religious affairs. His opinions comn:ianded respectful attention. He recognized and accepted a responsibility for community service. Rabbi Cohen was possessed of a sense of humor-a saving grace in any individual. A man with a sense of humor is not likely to be overimpressed with his own importance. Such was the case with Rabbi Cohen. Rabbi Cohen was the type of a citizen to be valued in any community at any time. Especially in this time of crisis in human affairs when sane leadership is so urgently needed, his death is a serious loss. �Rabbi Aaron~ . Cohen ' ~ Haclcleq Art (iallerq . ·. . . ·. ~ .Januarq 28, 1945 Rabbi Aaron Cohen was- born in Nuezhin, Russia, on July 4th 1879. he was educated at Yeshivahs in Russia. In 1901 he went to England and received his rabbinical diploma from the chief rabbi of Great Britian. In London he was foreign correspondent for four Russian newspapers. He held responsible ollices there in the international Zionist movement and for a while had a synagogue in South Wales. In 1910 he came to United States and enrolled at the University of Minnesota. While there he organized the Zionist movement in the Twin-cities, and was assistant editor of "The Scribe" a Minneapolis weekly. Rabbi Cohen then went to Chicago as assistant editor of the "Jewish Record" and later was editor and publisher of the "Jewish Echo," a weekly publication. For a time he was editor of the "Yiddnh Advocate," published in Boston. Maas. Rabbi Cohen's first pulpit In this country was at Louisville. Ky. in 1912, and his second was at Peoria. Ill where he stayed until 1919. He was married to Edith Lubinsky on Sept. 14th, 1913 in New Haven, Conn. Returning to Chicago in 1919 he organized the South Side Hebrew congregation. In 1922 he transferred to the Logan Square congregation. In 1925 Rabbi Cohen went to Racine, Wis.. where he was executive secretary for the Mid-west Zionist region. which embraced eight state•. On May 1st. 1937, Rabbi Cohen came to serve the Congregation Sons of Israel and the greater Mualceqon community. where he spent the remainder of his life. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Temple B'nai Israel Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Temple B'nai Israel (Muskegon, Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital objects were contributed by Temple B'nai Israel as part of the L'dor V'dor project. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Jews--United States Muskegon (Mich.) Scrapbooks Synagogues Women--Societies and clubs Minutes (Records) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Preston, Marilyn Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource L'dor V'dor (project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Text Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Circa 1920s-2018 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-08_BI-CornerstoneCeremony Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Klayf, Sam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947 Title A name given to the resource Cornerstone Laying Ceremony notes Description An account of the resource Notes and outline for B'nai Israel Temple Cornerstone Laying Ceremony. Subject The topic of the resource Jews--United States Muskegon (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project. Relation A related resource L'dor V'dor (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eada55c0165e29ba6e22b432193ff6ff.mp4 82b8929a1ed247d1aedf5babd7b6f6ec https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/565e6b629ab2d44656baa7b568048b2d.pdf f39c38a4ad9e84a06643793a0fa8028c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Ben Kleiman (46:55) Background Information (00:35)                Born on July 17th 1918 in East Grand Rapids, Michigan. (00:38) His family ran a clothing store in Grand Rapids, Michigan (00:45) Both of Ben’s parents were born in Russia. (1:06) He grew up and attended school in Grand Rapids. (2:00) Due to poor economic climate, Ben’s family was forced to sell their house and move to another part of Grand Rapids. (3:00) He graduated from high school in 1936.(3:20) In 1937 Ben attended junior college. (3:40) Due to lack of money, Ben did not stay in college. (3:50) On Ben’s first attempt to enlist in the army after Pearl Harbor, he was turned down, so he went ahead and got married. (4:10) He was then drafted in 1943 and listed as qualified for limited service. (4:22) He was unable to register for the draft prior to 1943 due to poor eye sight. (4:49) From 1940-1943 before being drafted, Ben worked as a shoe salesman. (5:05) Ben was visiting friends when he heard the news of the Pearl Harbor attack. (6:06) Before this, he had been paying attention to what was going on in the world. (6:35) After receiving his draft notice, Ben was sent to Battle Creek, Michigan, where he received interviews and was inducted into the U.S. Army. (7:05) Basic Training (7:25)   He took basic training at Camp McCoy in Wisconsin (7:30) Basic was short, lasting only 6 weeks. (7:47) Service at Camp Reynolds (7:50)         After Basic training he was sent to Camp Reynolds in Pennsylvania and was assigned to work in an office where the soldiers were processed to be sent overseas. (7:50) Ben received an office job due to his ability to type and his experience with dealing with paper work. (8:25)] Basic training was mostly physical work. (9:12) Ben was older (at age 25 than) the other soldiers. (9:50) Camp Reynolds was close to several small towns. (10:20) Camp Reynolds was a replacement depot. Often soldiers had gone AWOL from this camp. (10:57) 70-80% of the soldiers that went AWOL from Ben’s camp were found. (12:00) Because he was married, Ben was allowed to live off base with his wife. He worked an 8-4:30 day 5 days a week. (12:35) �   Television, movies, and radio were available at Fort Reynolds for the soldiers' entertainment. (13:30) Every person in Ben’s office had a specific job. The office was well supplied. (14:59) Ben’s commanding officer kept a “tight ship.” (16:00) Service in Alaska (17:00)           The men were interviewed to replace typists at another location. The men were not told were they would be sent. (17:10) The men were not aware of where they were traveling until they arrived at a camp in Vancouver, Canada. (18:09) The men were moved to Alaska in the fall of 1944. (18:45) The men were sent to Alaska via a cruise ship. There were civilians on the ship. (19:15) He was sent to Camp Richardson near Anchorage, Alaska. (20:27) When he arrived Ben was placed in G1 (personnel) and made head of the Awards and Casualties department. He reported suicides and fatal accidents that occurred overseas. (20:33) Men were required to make, at times, 17 copies of documents to be sent to filing cabinets, Washington D.C. and newspapers. (22:27) Aside from awards and casualties, Ben was passed for top secret and worked on were particular soldiers were placed. (23:56) The headquarters in Alaska was not connected to forces in the Aleutian islands. (25:10) Ben and other office workers assigned soldiers to particular maintenance position around the base such as cooks. (25:45) Life at Camp Richardson (26:00)          His wife did not move with Ben to Alaska. (26:20) Ben lived in a barracks. (27:00) For entertainment, the men would commonly go skiing or go swimming in a lake. (29:09) There were enclosed walk ways at the camp. (30:06) There was a lot of snow at the camp but not so much that the men were unable to walk. (30:34) The men were required to work night duty. This meant that one office worker would have to sleep in the office one night to guard the paperwork. (32:54) There were a number of suicides at the base (perhaps due to weather conditions). (34:30) Ben thought himself very lucky for receiving overseas pay without being in a war zone. (35:44) The officers were “demanding and understanding.”(36:22) End of Service (37:40)     Ben was discharged earlier than his points dictated due to an invitation to his brother's wedding. (37:52) While Ben was in Alaska his wife worked for a retailer in Grand Rapids. (39:27) He was discharged in February of 1946. (39:55) Ben was given enough money to fly home to Michigan. However due to his inability to get a flight, Ben needed to take a train part way to Chicago. (40:00) �    Ben was offered a job by the shoe retailer that he originally worked for. He was soon transferred to Detroit, Michigan, and offered the chance to manage a store in Kentucky. He turned the offer down. (41:03) He operated an Army and Navy Surplus store until 1952. (42:00) He became an auctioneer after several business attempts from 1964-2011. (43:02) His career as an auctioneer involved a lot of document keeping. (44:09) Effects of Service (44:34)   Being drafted makes Ben feel that he had done his part. (44:50) He doesn’t think he learned anything in the service that he didn’t already know. (45:50) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KleimanB1252V Title A name given to the resource Kleiman, Benjamin (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kleiman, Benjamin Description An account of the resource Ben Kleiman was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1918. He tried to enlist in the Army after Pearl Harbor, but was rejected due to poor eyesight. He was eventually drafted in 1943 and put on limited duty. He worked as a clerk at Camp Reynolds, Pennsylvania, keeping track of soldiers who had gone AWOL, and was eventually reassigned to Camp Richardson, Alaska, outside of Anchorage, where he worked as a personnel clerk until discharged in 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dbd65a6ea740300e489dbac9ffe89166.mp4 6fa780ad9d2f9b4417edd8f6e56920c9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/865eedf4b4fd4eeca8bcf8f0af184365.pdf 961295df66a775fd09d2d6b645fa7d0a PDF Text Text Morris Kleiman (2:12:51) (00:05) Background Information • • • • • • • • • Morris was born in Grand Rapids and he grew up there as well His grandfather had moved to Boston before World War One His family opened up their own cleaning and pressing business His grandfather had previously been a miller, working with farmers They eventually moved to Grand Rapids, MI, where his father met his mother Morris’ parents got married right before World War One Morris graduated in 1941 from South High School He had been in the ROTC from 10th-12th grade where he was an officer His family was Jewish, but he did not have a clear picture of what was going on in Germany until after the war (08:35) News of Events in Europe • • • • Morris kept a scrapbook while in high school and closely followed the beginning of the war He used to collect foreign stamps and knew a lot about other foreign countries; he was also interested in politics Morris thought that he would eventually be drafted, but he attempted to get through as much college as possible before that happened He went to Grand Rapids Junior College for one year and to the University of Michigan for a few semesters after that (13:05) Training • • • • • • • • Morris was first sent to Fort Custer, in Battle Creek, MI The men had to take written exams to determine where they would be placed The exams were very simple for Morris and he got a high score, so more was expected of him Morris was sent to Minnesota where he stayed for three weeks He was then sent to Atlantic City because he had a broken nose, so he was put on limited service in a wait station He went to Mississippi for special training school to be a supply clerk Then to Louisiana to an Air Base to work with another supply group His job was to check air planes to make sure that they were properly supplied to travel overseas (16:40) Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP) �• • • • • • • • Morris started the ASTP in June of 1944, where there were many other college-educated men They trained here in Texas for three months The Army had been in need of infantry men and took the whole ASTP engineering program to fill the positions Morris then began infantry training, but none of the others liked him and the men from the engineering program because they were the “smart college boys” Looking back, Morris is now glad that he got the infantry experience They received little training and were sent overseas in September While in the South, Morris did not feel that he got to experience any real Southern culture because he had been alienated inside the training camp He also felt that the Germans had better training and weapons than the Americans (28:00) Barracks in England • • • Morris remembered a small brick barracks that only held three squads While they were staying there, their lieutenant had told them to get ready because they would be meeting their enemy in 24 hours After that, everyone was scared and wrote what they thought was their final letters to their family (31:15) The Trip Overseas • • • During the trip Morris was sick most of the time, but helped with paperwork when he was feeling better They only had a few U-Boat scares, in which they went into “quiet time” They traveled in a large convoy, leaving in September of 1944 and it took them 2 weeks to reach their destination (33:20) England • • • • • • They based near Portsmouth, which was very foggy, but had a beautiful country side The local people here were very friendly They marched everyday on the country roads Morris and others had to watch World War One movies to help train, but they did not help because they portrayed lots of hand-to-hand combat; whereas the Germans he fought were always at least 200 yards away They eventually met with some infantry landing craft boats on the beach Then the men were loaded up on trucks and sent to Belgium (38:20) Belgium • Morris and others moved to the front lines to take over �• • • • • • • • The men were all spread out and dug fox holes It was very cold and there was barbed wire fencing and tanks all around The Germans were better off because they were staying in bunkers Many of his superiors had little or no experience and they were only in their early thirties Morris was in the front line from October through December, until the Battle of the Bulge It snowed every day for 5 weeks and they were only given one hot meal per week Morris’ squad had 12 men, the company platoon had 40; there were 3 platoons and 1 platoon per barrack The men were spread out over a stretch of three miles, but in other areas they were stretched out over eight miles (46:30) Reconnaissance • Morris went out on reconnaissance missions once a week at night time • They had to cut through barb wire fences and get very close to German forces • Morris set up automatic rifles and helped to cover who ever might be in front of him • The Germans were less spread out and not so much in the open field • The Germans would freely light cigarettes at night because they were not worried about the Americans seeing them (51:15) Retreat • The men had been told that they had to get out of the line quickly • It ended up a big mess and no one knew what was going on • They found themselves in an open field with lots of tanks burning and carnage • Many just slept there in the field because they were too tired to go on any further • Morris woke up every morning to artillery fire (54:40) The Hospital • Morris was sick in the hospital when he heard the news that someone had tried to kill Eisenhower • Many of the men around Morris were very sad during Christmas time • Morris was sent to a different hospital in France that was very nice • He was then put in the Paris Grand Hotel, but he had been too sick to enjoy it • They crossed the channel to another hospital in England (58:00) The States • Morris was never completely healthy again until he had got home and been married for a while • He went back to Fort Custer and was married in less than a year • His wife had done office work at Fort Custer �• • • • • • Morris did not enjoy the military and could not like to get back to civilian life The Army made him appreciate everything else and be more positive; it was a necessary evil for him Morris had been receiving unemployment checks and wanted to go back to school He went back to the University of Michigan from 1946-47 and got his BBA, majoring in accounting He eventually took over his family business where he worked for 25 years, and then sold the company He has spent the rest of his life in Grand Rapids, MI working with the Jewish community � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KleimanM Title A name given to the resource Kleiman, Morris (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kleiman, Morris Description An account of the resource Morris Kleiman was drafted into the Army for WW II and started his training at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan. He had closely followed the events in Europe prior to being drafted and was also attending college at the University of Michigan. Morris had fought on the front lines against the Germans in Belgium and had done some reconnaissance work. He eventually got very sick and was sent back to the United States. After his time in the service, Morris finished his degree in accounting and took over his family business. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-11-29 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5e80ee69ef712a4f112bc4bcf5477244.mp4 30939aaf18cd7d979b21ef5c88c4f704 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e8e53bdf1ad792dc8608871ef80622e5.pdf 648450292db4b289bcda02d23097fc5b PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Bruce Klein Date: 1984 [Barbara] … So, Bruce, those are the things I want to know. [Klein] So you want to know why I came to James? [Barbara] I wonder if I can do it on this shoulder. Yeah, why… you know what I mean, we’re not into big biographies, we’re into what James was. So, when phrasing your answer… you know what I mean? Hey, that looks nice. That looks nice. Now we got you. Make sure we have you focused. There. Anytime you want to start talking, you're really clear. [Klein] Okay. Why did I come to James? That's an interesting question. I think you have to do a little biography: I was at Virginia Tech. for five years teaching and before coming up here. And Virginia Tech. is like Michigan State and I didn't like that. I didn't like the movement towards one hundred, two hundred, three-hundredperson lectures and movement away from when I started there. It was a very personal place because I was the only faculty member. There were two of us. And by the time I left there were twelve of us with a PhD program and all of what that implied. And it's a long and funny story about how I got to James. I applied at Thomas Jefferson because I felt that any college for advertising in "The New Republic" couldn't be all bad. And they correctly sent me back a letter saying: "We're not interested in you; however, we've sent your material over to William James." And that was the year before William James… that was the year when James was being founded. So, I actually applied to William James before it existed. Ken Hunter was hired instead of me. And two years later – I think it was two years later – the circle came around and I was added to the staff. And it was really, in a lot of ways… coming to James was a reaction against a standard mega-versity type education. [Barbara] Okay, let me shift here. Okay. Now would you like to talk about… I just did something, sorry. Talk about the movement of computers. [Klein] Okay, I think… [Barbara] Let me change the shot just a little. [Klein] To talk about the movement of computers from James to CAS is… I think there were two reasons. One had to do James itself. And that was the students we �were attracting were less and less interested in a linear kind of thing that computing implies. And at the exact same time, a very powerful person on the Grand Valley campus, Don Vander Jack, saw finally that computing was going to be a very important curricula item and waged a campaign to move it. And we were vulnerable because of dying enrollments in that area. [Barbara] That's real clear. Okay. Let me just check focus here. Okay. [Klein] It was interesting. When I came, there was a core of about twenty students, I think, from roughly the first year or two of James that were really interested in computing. And when I left – or when it was suggested I apply for an open position in CAS by the Provost, let’s put it that way – there were probably fewer than ten. [Barbara] Because? Well, you already said. [Klein] I already said. I don't think we were attracting… I think the message of James was not the thing that was going to attract students interested in computing. And the students that were attracted to James were turned off by "you can't take the fourth course until you've taken the first three." I think there was some real problems with that. [Barbara] Real clear. From the position of both an insider and an outsider, I was never an outsider, you know what I mean, for James… [Klein] Yeah. [Barbara] Would you care to comment on its final demise? I mean, could it have been prevented? What should we have done differently? [Klein] I don't think anything could have been done, not in the context of Grand Valley. Grand Valley was going to make itself look like every other college in the state. Because I think, at that time, there were some serious enrollment patterns though James was doing just fine. If you want to look at James vis-à-vis Seidman, the enrollment in James was – to my recollection – just as good as the enrollment in Seidman. But I think the powers that be wanted Grand Valley to look like every other college in the state because they were taking enough flak for not being like every other college in the state. [Barbara] If you were to sum up James – the key to what we were trying to do or were doing – in a sentence, what would that sentence be? [Klein] Wow. That's a hard one, Barb. Well, something that my wife and I have been talking about a lot lately – and that's growth. Personal and intellectual. And I think �to my mind that's what James was more about than anything else. [Barbara] You're a great interviewee. You say it! � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_40_Klein Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Klein, Bruce Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Bruce Klein interview (video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Bruce Klein by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Bruce Klein was faculty member in William James College who worked at Grand Valley from 1977 to 2001 and later became Professor Emeritus of Computer Science and Information Systems. In this interview, Bruce discusses his personal journey that led him to William James College and the movement of the computer program from WJC to the College of Arts and Sciences (CAS). This interview is part 1 of 1 for Bruce Klein. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Lectures and lecturing Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3fda278e6f0254fa41b42c37908ee67f.m4v fdcf768011541d5d2c15f411c09d2582 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b6a8aba5291e9c58f5afa1ba67c1bf71.pdf e9df42c2f3f2db2c219d4a642caefc12 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Barry Kleinjans Cold War & Peacetime (1960-1997) 1 hour 2 minutes 55 seconds (00:00:38) Early Life -Born in Holland, Michigan in October 1942 -Grew up in Zeeland, Michigan -Father was a Seabee in the Navy during World War II -Wasn't present during the first four years of Barry's life -Father became a general contractor after the war -Built hospitals, schools, and houses -Graduated from high school in 1960 (00:01:46) Enlisting in the Navy -Enlisted in the Navy after graduating from high school -Influenced by his father's service in the Navy and the TV show Victory at Sea (00:02:07) Basic Training -Sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training two weeks after graduating -Subjected to the process of depersonalization -Breaking down the individual and building up the unit -Taught that you are a piece of government property -Went on marches -Took classes -Learned how the Navy worked -Learned about Navy protocols -Learned how to wash their uniforms by hand -High emphasis on discipline and following orders -Taught the history of the Navy -From the Revolutionary War to the Second World War -WWII and Korea were considered too new to be considered history -Met men from all over the country -Some were so poor that the first shoes they ever got were from the Navy -Some intelligent, college-educated men -Some black men -Adjusted well to the Navy -Understood that he was totally accountable for his actions -Received gas mask training -Shown how to put one on -Went into a room with a gas mask on, then the room was filled with tear gas -Had to take off their gas masks to get a sense of what a gas attack was like -Basic training lasted between six and nine weeks (00:07:32) Sonar School -Given two weeks of leave after basic training �-Sent to a basic school for sonar training in Key West, Florida in September 1960 -Arrived in Key West just in time for Hurricane Donna -There was a brand new school and new barracks -Used those to house civilians that were at risk for flooding -Patrolled the buildings looking for lost children -Hurricane destroyed the fresh water pipes in Key West -Had to go up the Keys to repair the pipes -The USS Bushnell helped with making the new fresh water pipes -He was placed on guard on a bridge into Key West -First encounter with the Red Cross and it was a negative one -Offered him coffee and cigarettes, but they were for sale not free -Supposed to be free for military personnel -Spent almost a year training in Key West -Learned about electricity, electronics, and sonar equipment -Training concluded with doing sonar training aboard a destroyer and "hunting" U.S. subs -Equipment was still pretty basic -Essentially the same technology from WWII with slight improvements (00:12:11) Duty Aboard the USS Thomas J Gary (DE-326) -Assigned to the USS Thomas J Gary (DE-326) out of Newport, Rhode Island -Converted destroyer-escort from WWII -Assigned to be a radar picket -Part of the Distant Early Warning (DEW) Line -Watching for Soviet bombers and submarines coming over the Arctic Circle -Spent 30 to 45 days on station -Then returned to port for 10 to 12 days to resupply and rest -Spent their winters in the North Atlantic -Spent their summers in the Caribbean Sea -Worked as a school ship for Key West -Did Liberty port calls throughout the islands -Had a picket station off of the Grand Banks -Had a picket station called GIUK (Greenland, Iceland, United Kingdom) above the Arctic Circle -Worked out of Scotland -On that station for 30 to 45 days at a time -Visited Germany, Denmark, and Sweden -Treated well by the people in those countries -First American ship that they had seen since WWII -American dollar was strong, so the locals welcomed spending of the dollar -Remembers one major storm in the North Atlantic -Water temperature was 28°F -Had to remain on station -Endured 40 foot waves for 10 days -Lost material and the ship was heavily damaged as a result �-Never lost confidence in the ship's ability to stay afloat -Knew that as long as they kept water out of the ship they would be fine -Paid attention to what the veteran sailors were doing -Couldn't do much during the storm due to the weather -Never heard much activity anyway -As a sonar operator the ship would send out a "ping" to find any Soviet submarines -The problem was those submarines could hear the "ping" and stayed away from the area -Stationed about that ship for two full years -After leaving the USS Thomas J Gary he retired from active duty in 1963 (00:19:15) Cuban Missile Crisis -They had just pulled in from serving around Northern Europe and he had leave -He was hitchhiking back to Michigan when he heard about the Cuban Missile Crisis -A week after being home he was recalled for duty and the USS Thomas J Gary sailed to Cuba -Part of the blockade stopping the flow of military supplies to Cuba -Attitude on the ship was optimistic -Believed they would go to Cuba, fight if necessary, and win -Tremendous amount of material and personnel in Key West -Could see the missile bases in the hills of Cuba -Tried to stop a Russian freighter, but to no avail -Remembers sailing outside of Havana harbor (00:21:45) Sinking of the USS Thresher -In April 1963 the nuclear submarine USS Thresher sank off the coast of Cape Cod -Sank in 8,400 feet of water -USS Thomas J Gary was sent as part of the search -Searched for about one month before being relieved -Joined by a Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute ship to look for the submarine -Had a plan to use depth charges to create a seismograph to find the sub -He and one other sailor were tasked with preparing and launching three charges -Had to be tied to the ship and in three layers of clothing to do that -Depth charges fall at a rate of 28 feet per second -Set to detonate at 1,000 feet -First detonated at 500 feet -Second detonated at only 250 feet -Close enough to the ship to knock out lights -Third detonated at 1,000 feet -Rewarded with medicinal brandy for going out to do that (00:25:53) Extension of Service -Had the opportunity to extend his service -An Anti-submarine warfare officer from a sister ship offered a transfer to Barry -Could sail around the world aboard the sister ship -The catch was that he would have to extend for six months -Decided against it �-Had plans to go home, get a job, get married, and raise a family (00:26:58) Navy Recruiter & Vietnam War -Began work as a Navy recruiter in early 1964 -The draft was in effect and so many men tried to join the Navy he had a waiting list -By 1966 he had a three year waiting list of men trying to get into the Navy -As early as 1963 knew that there was American activity in Vietnam -Broke his ankle and had to be in the hospital at Newport, Rhode Island -Saw men in the hospital recovering from wounds they sustained in Vietnam -Two years before ground troops were sent in -Men in the Navy already knew that a war with Vietnam was on and going to get worse -Had a first come, first serve policy when it came to recruiting in the Navy -People tried to buy their way into the Navy just to get out of the draft -Only screening process they had was conducting physicals of recruits -Took pretty much anyone and everyone -Worked as a recruiter until 1967 -Admiral Zumwalt made some changes Barry didn't agree with and he decided to get out -Also had an executive, civilian job waiting for him once he got out (00:30:16) Navy Reserves -Stayed in the Navy Reserves, but stayed off active duty until 1980 -Did two weeks of training every year -Mostly pointless because it was only two weeks out of a year -Went to Key West for one training period -Installed radar on two PT-Boats -Both of them were used for torpedo recovery and fishing -Noticed technology advancing during that time -Moving away from vacuum tubes to solid state electronics -Progress was slow though due to a lack of proper funding (00:32:02) Returning to Active Duty -Worked in construction in the late 1970s, but due to a slow economy went broke -Had to move back in with his parents -Decided to do a voluntary recall to active duty -Got in when President Reagan was building the new 600 ship fleet -Planned on staying in for only two years -Got married during that time -Got offered a lot of money to stay in -Both factors contributed to him staying in the Navy -He was able to go in as a Petty Officer, 2nd Class (E-5) so he didn't have to be retrained (00:33:13) Assignment to USS O'Callahan (FF-1051) -Sent to Philadelphia to receive his orders -Wanted a ship and wanted a ship based on the West Coast -Got assigned to a Garcia Class Fast Frigate based out of San Diego -USS O'Callahan (FF-1051) �-Older ship, but it still ran -Got married and moved to San Diego and two weeks later was on a 10 and a half month cruise -Sailed to Hawaii, through the Aleutian Islands, and down through Japan -Buzzed by Soviet Bear and Badger bombers in the Aleutian Islands -Bombers locked missiles on them which was technically an act of war -Fortunately, nothing came of it -Sailed to Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, then to the Persian Gulf -Did a radar picket in the Indian Ocean for 108 days -Came back through Japan and picked up a battle group of 40 ships for WESTPAC -Total radio silence -Sailed up to Vladivostok then turned on their radios -Vladivostok thought it was an American invasion of eastern Russia -Soviets sent out bombers to intercept the battle group -After WESTPAC they sailed back to the U.S. and it took a month and a half to get back -Refueled every two days -Done to avoid ships running out of fuel like in WWII -Stayed in port for six months then went out for another WESTPAC exercise (00:38:46) Stationed in San Diego -Went out for the other WESTPAC exercise then left the ship in the Philippines -Received orders to go back to San Diego for school -Flew out of Clark Air Base in the Philippines -At an advanced sonar school in San Diego -Learned about new sonar equipment -More computers -Primitive by today's standards, but sophisticated at the time time -Course was so new the Navy hadn't created proper diplomas yet -Got temporary certificates that said, "You done good" (as a little joke) -Went to school from 9 AM to 5 PM, but also had some duties -Wife liked that better (00:41:07) Assignment to Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigate (1) -Transferred from San Diego to Bath, Maine to pick up a new ship -Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate -Note: Most likely the USS Carr (FFG-52) -Good ship, but cheaply made -On one occasion the superstrucure cracked down the length of the ship -Idea was that the ships could be easily broken down and salvaged -Although they were cheap they were durable -One ship was hit by a missile and another hit a mine -Both survived -Served aboard that ship in the 1980s -Home port was Charleston -Technically stationed there for two years, but only there for six months -Went to the Mediterranean Sea for a cruise �-First time being there -Spent a lot of time in Italy, Spain, Gibraltar, and Haifa, Israel -Didn't wear your uniform ashore -Civilians could still tell that you were in the service -Always went ashore with other sailors -Made a hobby of buying canes in ports -Enjoyed collecting them and they made for a good weapon (00:45:56) Assignment to Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigate (2) -Transferred to San Diego in 1988 or 1989 and taught advanced electronics there -Received orders for another Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate based at Yokosuka, Japan -Joined the ship in early 1991 -Sailed immediately for Subic Bay in the Philippines -Arrived as soon as Mount Pinatubo erupted on June 15, 1991 -Spectacular explosion that shook the ship -30 to 40 miles away from the volcano and the ship still shook -Had to hose ash off the ship -Four feet of ash fell on Subic Bay -Hurricane followed shortly after the eruption making the ash like concrete -Caused buildings to collapse under the weight -Dark as night at noon from the ash -There was a huge build up of static electricity which caused St. Elmo's Fire -Personnel from Clark Air Base were evacuated to Subic Bay -Helped bring the personnel to another base to be taken to Japan -Stayed at Subic Bay for a while -After that the Navy left the Philippines -Filipinos basically wanted the Navy to leave -Would have cost a fortune to rebuild Subic Bay and Clark Air Base -Remembers the Navy's last day in the Philippines -Said good bye to the Navy's favorite bar -Removed all Navy equipment from Subic Bay including the cranes (00:50:52) Presidents and Funding -Had plenty of money at the end of the Cold War -Through the Bush and Reagan administrations -During the 1970s the Navy had poor funding -Had to go to Radio Shack to buy electrical equipment -Funding was cut again during the Clinton administration -Remembers sitting in the Chief's Club in Yokosuka, Japan watching the '96 Election -President Clinton won the election -Next day three Master Chief Petty Officers resigned with 30 years of experience (00:52:58) Gulf War & Aircraft Carrier Service -Based in Yokosuka during the Gulf War and did cruises to the Persian Gulf -Completed his tour in Japan aboard an aircraft carrier �-Hated being on an aircraft carrier -Too impersonal, too loud, and it smelled -His berthing (bed) was right under the flight deck (00:55:37) End of Service -Left the Navy in 1997 -Got transferred back to the U.S. for instructor duty -Father died in 1996 -Navy was changing again -Yelled at a recruit for being out of uniform -Recruit handed over a "time out chit" -Meant Barry had to stop yelling at him -Barry ripped up the paper -Next day got reprimanded for yelling at the recruit -Tried to explain that recruits can't be sheltered (00:57:42) Son's Navy Service -His son got in trouble on the ship he was assigned to -Had developed a minor drinking problem and was being given the drug, antabuse -Caused a severe reaction if you even used alcohol-based shaving cream -Barry researched it and found the drug is only for severe, chronic alcoholics -His son and five other sailors were being given the drug as punishment -According to naval law, that was drug abuse -He challenged the executive officer about the abuse -Officer didn't appreciate that -Ship's doctor learned about the abuse -Confiscated the antabuse -Barry saw it as a leadership responsibility to address abuse (01:00:32) Life after Service & Reflections on Service -Returned to contracting after leaving the Navy -Better equipped to deal with people after the Navy -Learned that to get something done you didn' talk about it, you did it -Decided to get out of contracting during the Great Recession -He was drawing Social Security and retirement money from the Navy -Knew that younger men needed the business, so he retired � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KleinjansB1739V Title A name given to the resource Kleinjans, Barry (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-02 Description An account of the resource Barry Kleinjans was born in Holland, Michigan in October 1942. After graduating from high school in 1960 he enlisted in the Navy. He received basic training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois then received sonar training at Key West, Florida. While at Key West he also helped with recovery from the aftermath of Hurricane Donna. He served aboard the USS Thomas J Gary (DER 326) on the Distant Early Warning Line searching for Soviet submarines and bombers, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the search for the USS Thresher. He left active duty in 1963 and worked as a Navy recruiter in the Navy Reserves until he returned to active duty in 1980. He served aboard the USS O'Callahn (FF 1051), received advanced sonar training in San Diego, and served aboard two Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates and helped with the evacuation of personnel when Mount Pinatubo erupted in 1991. He worked as an instructor in the U.S. until he retired in 1997. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kleinjans, Barry Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f7e6a09460306f0857d8914dd4d4801.mp4 f62af69128f319771fbae86365874c06 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b056235a30093d3939a0ea142923815.pdf e0f20ee03f8e8a02642e3c2f141d1746 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Thaddeus Kling (43:17) (00:01) Background Information • • • • • Ted worked at Brunswick in Muskegon, MI before the war He finished the 8th grade and then went to work on a farm Ted plowed for 30 cents an hour on a dairy farm They didn’t hear much news so he didn’t know what was going on overseas He heard about Pearl Harbor from a newspaper when he went into town (06:22) Training • • • • • • • Ted was drafted in Muskegon and sent to Fort Custer, MI After basic training he was sent to Fort Sill, OK They sent him there because he had a high IQ He taught people how to drive and work on cars When he was in basic training he thought it was fun and was used to a lot of exercise After a year he was promoted up to a first class sergeant He helped run C Battery [308th Field Artillery, attached to the 78th Division] (14:04) Deployment • • • • • • • • • • • • • • They landed in Bournemouth, England It took them 3 days to cross the English Channel because of the bombings and U-Boats They landed in Le Havre, France towards the end of 1943 [1944] Ted fought in the Hurtgen Forest, the Battle of the Bulge, and Remagen Bridge Their first combat was in October 1943 [1944] They were hit with friendly fire when they first got into Germany by the Air Corps His unit fired 105mm and 155mm guns The observers went ahead and then came back to direct the fire up to 6 miles away Each gun had a leader and 5 helpers They were never fired upon Ted was at the Bulge for 3 months and couldn’t clean or change clothes He went forward observing occasionally After the Bulge they went to Remagen on the Rhine They fired constantly for three days and nights (33:44) War Ends • The war ended the day after they captured 5,000 soldiers �• • They got ready to go to Japan through Russia, but the war ended Ted was glad to get out of the Army � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KlingT Title A name given to the resource Kling, Thaddeus (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kling, Thaddeus Description An account of the resource Thaddeus Kling grew up working on a farm in Muskegon, Michigan. He was drafted and trained in Oklahoma where he made first class sergeant and helped run the C Battery of the 308th Field Artillery. He fought at the Hurtgen Forest, the Battle of the Bulge, and at Remagen Bridge. At Remagen Bridge they fired constantly for 3 days and 3 nights. The day before the war was over they captured 5,000 Germans. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Montagna, Douglas (Interviewer) Great Lakes Naval Memorial & Museum (Muskegon, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-06-30 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/017aef057036015a8b2787d4cb382766.m4v 55dda55bba157bcc4cab33b5607b0c8b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a59f921b0f416a6fc41ee05b67c4840f.pdf a2fc6be29f40011a22244e339c2551fc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Ryan Klingeman Iraq War 59 minutes 58 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on November 2, 1981 -When he was three years old his family moved to Allendale, Michigan -Grew up there and attended Allendale High School -Father worked for Steelcase -Mother drove a school bus for Allendale public schools -Graduated from high school in 2000 -Attended Grand Valley State University on a scholarship -Attended for two years (00:01:04) September 11th Attacks & Enlisting in the Marines -After the September 11th attacks he decided to enlist in the Marines -Remembers being at class when people started telling him to turn on the news -Watched the events of that day unfold -Less than a year after the attacks he decided to enlist in the Marines -What was Saddam Hussein capable of doing if terrorists could do so much damage? -Felt he should do his part to protect the country and stop enemies of the country -Grandfathers had served in World War II, and great-grandfathers in earlier conflicts -A lot of his friends had enlisted in the other branches, so he decided to join the Marines -Different than his friends and saw it as more of a challenge -Two weeks after enlisting he was considered ready for basic training -Most recruits take months to prepare -Being in good physical shape and having some college education sped up the process -Did various physical tests and aptitude tests -Went to Lansing, Michigan to take the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (00:03:54) Boot Camp -Sent to Marine Corps Recruit Depot, San Diego, for boot camp -When he landed at the airport he could see the obstacle course and facilities at the base -Placed on a bus and told to keep his head down -Arrived at night -Drill instructor came on board, screaming orders to get off the bus and stand at attention -Issued gear, had his head shaved, and went through processing -Did paperwork for hours -First experience with stress and sleep deprivation -Assigned to a squad bay for three days -Cleaning and waiting for more recruits to form a training platoon -Boot camp started with Phase 1 -It was difficult -Remembers the drill instructor saying something funny and he laughed -Drill instructor shoved him onto a footlocker and he realized they could hit him -Had no difficulty with the physical training -Learned that all he to do was follow orders and do what the drill instructors said -Recruits were punished as individuals, then punished as a group for mistakes �-Teaching them that mistakes in combat would affect the entire unit -Boot camp lasted 13 weeks, split into three four-week phases -Phase 1: Basics of being a Marine, learning discipline, and receiving martial arts training -Phase 2: Extensive bayonet training -Phase 3: Go to Camp Pendleton for rifle training -Had a half-hour on Sundays for relaxation -At night, the recruits had to sleep with their rifles -Told when to sleep and when to wake up -Went through “the Crucible” -Three days of marching with a full pack and three, meager meals a day -Teaching you to endure the hunger, pain, and exhaustion of being in combat -Had 110 recruits in his training platoon -Some of those men washed out due to the stress of basic training -Some of the recruits tried to escape -Some men added to the platoon because they had been held back -Graduated with fewer recruits than what they started with -Did his basic training in the summer of 2003 -Post-invasion of Iraq -Emphasis on preparing for war (00:13:54) School of Infantry -Got ten days of leave after graduating from boot camp -Parents came out to California to see him graduate from boot camp -Returned to Michigan for his leave -Went to Camp Pendleton, California, for the School of Infantry -Assigned to be a 03/11 Bravo (rifleman) -It was very difficult -Did a lot of classroom work -Learned about different weapons -Took land navigation courses -Carried 200-pound backpacks -Gained 20 pounds of muscle -Went on escape & evasion courses -Learning how to avoid being captured if stuck behind enemy lines -Went through mock villages -Similar to rural Iraqi and Afghan villages -Did gas training -Hit with CS gas (tear gas) and putting on gas masks -Fears that terrorists or insurgents might use chemical weapons -Learned about house-house searches -Platoon sergeant training him had served in Afghanistan -Gave good advice -School of Infantry lasted two months -He was eligible for Recon Training, but swimming didn’t appeal to him (00:18:28) Stationed in Michigan -He had joined the Marine Reserves -Upon completion of training he joined the 1st Battalion, 24th Marines in Saginaw, Michigan -More training and more classroom work -Majority of battalion had been deployed to guard bases along the Kuwaiti border -Spent most of his time exercising and cleaning the base �-Learned about different forms of radio communication -Given a housing allowance, but he stayed with a friend in Saginaw -Stayed at Saginaw for three months, and after one month the battalion returned -Sent to Poland for training with international forces -Stormed beaches on the Baltic Sea in World War II-vintage amphibious vehicles -Germans were disciplined -Majority of Russian soldiers were conscripts and acted like it -Woefully under-trained and didn’t want to be there -Stayed there four or five weeks -Stayed at an Air Force base -First time out of the United States -Experienced a lot of different people and different cultures -After the training in Poland he returned to Saginaw (00:23:18) Pre-Deployment Preparation -He had planned on re-enrolling in college, but there was a deployment rumor -The deployment didn’t happen -He went full-time for the Reserves -Went on field exercises and worked on the base -In mid-2005 they received deployment orders -Went on longer field exercises -Went out to California in early 2006 for extensive training -Did assault courses, had live-fire mortars and live-fire machine guns -Trained at Camp Pendleton -Went to 29 Palms for a large, combined forces exericse -Did patrols in mock villages with other branches of the armed forces -He looked forward to being deployed -Older than a lot of the other Marines -Being in 29 Palms exposed him to the desert environment (00:27:10) Deployment -Given a week of leave to say good bye to his family -Father was proud, but mother was worried -He had gotten married and was able to see the birth of his daughter -Went back to 29 Palms for four or five more weeks of training -It was beneficial -Went through mock villages -Had soldiers act as combatants and simulated rounds (similar to paintballs) -Paid a lot of attention to the news coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan -News shifted from being positive to being negative -Reports of civilian deaths, war crimes, and the torture of prisoners -Flew from the United States to Germany to Kuwait on a commercial airliner -Stayed in Kuwait for two days (00:30:42) Arrival in Iraq -Flown up to Al-Taqaddum Air Base (TQ) in Iraq on a C-130 -Located in Al-Anbar Province -Made a combat landing -A spiraling descent toward the runway to avoid antiaircraft fire -Spent a night there -It was a large base with a Taco Bell and indoor plumbing -Sent to Camp Baharia near the city of Fallujah �-Took a convoy to the forward operating base (FOB) at an abandoned train station north of Fallujah -Started the transition process to take over from the previous unit -Shown the perimeter, shown weak points, and informed about the situation -Attacks were getting progressively worse due to the Muslim holiday of Ramadan -More attacks -Insurgents attacked during transitions because units were vulnerable -Upon arrival at the FOB they took mortar fire and a suicide car hit the base -The suicide attack killed some Marines that were slated to go home (00:33:49) Operating in Fallujah -Getting to know the area and making contact with the civilians -Went on patrols and went to houses to make sure the people had military-issued ID cards -The civilians were friendly -Learned that the overly friendly people were hiding something -Within a few weeks they started encountering improvised-explosive devices (IEDs) and snipers -Had a good intelligence group that gathered information for raids -Made raids every other night to capture high value insurgents -Worked closely with local officials, the Iraqi police, and the Iraqi Army -Intelligence group worked with sheiks to get information about insurgent activity -Most of the Iraqis hated the insurgents, but didn’t want to risk retaliation from them -They wanted to give information to the Americans, but feared the insurgents -Able to call home and rest at Camp Baharia -Used abandoned buildings as outposts in the city -Stayed there for three or four days with nine or ten men -Watching routes with high IED activity and supply routes -Went on combat patrols -Mix of hunting for high value targets and looking for insurgents -Didn’t get a lot of sleep during those patrols -Did patrols in vehicles and on foot -Kept it random so the insurgents couldn’t establish a pattern -He preferred foot patrols -Able to move faster and get out of situations easier -Realized that a presence alone wouldn’t suffice -The Iraqis wanted to see results from the presence -Civilians could get compensated for damaged property -Spent his nine-month tour in that area (00:42:02) Enemy Presence in Fallujah -At first, they were attacked quite a bit -Once they started doing raids and engaging the insurgents the attacks decreased -There were two types of raids: hard and soft -Soft raid meant going in quietly (for example, going roof to roof to get into a house) -A hard raid usually meant kicking down a door or blowing up a wall to get into a house -During raids they had a fire team go up on a nearby roof to provide cover for the raid party -Civilians liked what the Marines were doing -Invited them in for tea and exuded hospitality -Civilians hated the insurgents because of things like beheading prisoners and abusing children -Started to notice large groups of civilians feeding information to the intelligence groups (00:45:45) On Base & On Outpost -The base was small, roughly the size of a football field -Didn’t have much down time �-Only had four hours a day to clean rifle, do laundry, and catch some sleep -On outposts they slept in shifts -On outposts the insurgents hit hard with RPGs and assaults -Used the RPG as a distraction then hit the other side with small-arms fire -The abandoned houses they used as outposts had belonged to wealthy Iraqis -Had walls around property -Sat up on the roof with thermal scopes -Able to stop insurgents before they crossed the perimeter (00:48:25) Casualties -Most casualties came from IEDs and snipers -Command kept them informed about the men wounded or killed -Battalion numbered at about 900 to 1,000 Marines -23 were killed during that tour -90 to 120 were wounded during that tour (00:49:32) Weapons -He carried a Benelli shotgun during raids with a lock-busting round -Carried an M-16 rifle with an M203 under-barrel grenade launcher for patrols -Sometimes carried an M249 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon); a light machine gun (00:50:26) IEDs, Snipers, & Protection -Friend got wounded by an IED nine days after the battalion arrived -Insurgents used three, 155mm artillery rounds bound together as an IED -When they got stronger armor on vehicles, the insurgents made stronger bombs -Used smokescreens to avoid snipers -Used Humvees and 7-ton trucks as personnel carriers -The trucks took IED blasts better than Humvees (00:51:45) End of Tour & Coming Home -He was still in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was executed on December 30, 2006 -The Iraqi people celebrated, but the insurgents used it as an opportunity to attack -Left Iraq in April 2007 -Returned to the United States and got 30 days of leave -Rapid transition from being in a combat zone to being in civilian society -Strange to be sitting in his living room with his wife and nine-month old daughter -Allowed to decompress for a few days in California before going home (00:53:56) Training Exercise in Haiti -Opportunity came up to train Haitian soldiers on raid tactics and drug enforcement -Did urban assault exercises -The Haitians were poorly-equipped, violent, and not friendly like the Europeans and Russians -Stayed there for five weeks (00:55:00) End of Service Pt. 1 -He found a civilian job and decided to become a member of the inactive Reserve for rest of enlistment -Wife was against him reenlisting anyway (00:55:26) Contact with Home -He had access to a satellite phone to call home -Didn’t like to call much because it upset his wife -There were a few times when the base got attacked while he was on the phone -Used email a few times -Mostly wrote regular letters to stay in touch with his family -Wrote a letter every day �(00:56:37) Readjusting to Civilian Life & End of Service Pt. 2 -Being in crowds scared him for a while (Insurgents used crowds of civilians as human shield) -Had his wife drive for a while after he came home (Insurgents hid IEDs on roadsides) -Didn’t go out in public that much after he came home -Worked as a supervisor for a distribution company until 2015 -Returned to Grand Valley State University on the GI Bill -Studying to be a high school history teacher -He is in his senior year at Grand Valley (as of the interview) -Went on inactive reserve in 2009 and was discharged in 2011 (00:58:40) Reflections on Service -Taught him leadership skills -Instilled in him a strong work ethic -Learned a lot and met a lot of different people -Difficult to reconnect with friends that didn’t serve in the military -Bonds with other friends that served in the other branches � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KlingemanR1953V Title A name given to the resource Klingeman, Ryan A (Interview outline and video), 2016 Description An account of the resource Ryan Klingeman was born on November 2, 1981, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In 2002 he enlisted in the Marine Corps Reserve, and in summer 2003 he went to boot camp at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, San Diego, California. He volunteered to be a rifleman and went to the School of Infantry at Camp Pendleton, California. Upon completion of training he joined the 1st Battalion 24th Marines in Saginaw, Michigan and went to Poland for a multinational training exercise. In mid-2005 the unit received orders to deploy to Iraq. They trained at Camp Pendleton and 29 Palms before deploying to Iraq in 2006. Ryan and the rest of his unit was stationed at Camp Baharia near Fallujah, Iraq, and they operated out of a forward operating base north of the city. He spent his nine-month tour in Fallujah. He went on patrols, conducted raids to capture insurgents, and stood watch at outposts in the city. They left Iraq in April 2007 and returned to Michigan. He participated in a joint-training exercise with the Haitians before going inactive reserve in 2009, and in 2011 he was discharged from the Marines. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Klingeman, Ryan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-09-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4593e58b2f72bd1e3974cf4be2fa132.mp4 958fe6de8b461da94c015b40877941ec https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb7956bc5e43cbd1837bad190fdabcee.pdf 8fd080dc3d2f0a20d30a6406a6b775fe PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Walter Kloc World War II Total Time: 1:02:15 Childhood and Early Enlistment (0:00:10)     Born in Cook County, Illinois but moved to Michigan when he was one. He attended High School and attended Central Michigan College in 1936. He did not graduate in 4 years as he was 2 credits short. He worked in the summer of 1940, and after the summer he decided to sign up for the Air Force {Army Air Corps], and he was called up in February 1941. He was then told he would be called up once the airfields were ready. (0:04:10) It was not until December 10, 1941, just after Pearl Harbor, that he was called up into active duty. Enlistment and Training (0:04:40)    He was sent to San Antonio, Texas where he attended basic training. This consisted of, for the most part, basic physical training and learning military life, as well as basic things about aircraft. (0:05:50) He was then sent to an airfield in the Panhandle of Texas where he took primary flight training. He was in a BT-19. During this training they were able to wash out about 80% of the class. He was washed out of the pilots training. He was given the choice of either bombardier or navigator, so he chose bombardier. (07:40) He was then sent to San Antonio and then to Midland, Texas for bombardier training. They used NT-11 planes and dropped practiced on the Norden Bombsight. They also had a mechanism on the ground that allowed them to practice on the sight. Active Duty (0:11:20)     He received a commission in July 1942 and was sent to Columbia, South Carolina where he was in charge of the training of a bombardier squadron. They completed the runway in September, and he trained the men to skip bomb and bomb at high altitudes. They were training the men in B-25s. (0:13:40) In November 1943, he was shipped overseas to The Pacific Theatre, where he flew a B-24. He shipped over in a plane to Guadalcanal where he joined a pre-existing squadron. He was squadron bombardier for this mission, and he trained the bombardiers on short bombing missions. (0:16:19) After training the squadron, he participated in bombing runs over various locations, including Bougainville. They then moved to Green Island and flew bombing missions from there. (0:17:20) They ran into anti-aircraft fire and some fighters, but they had their own fighter escorts to take care of this. �                (0:18:25) They targeted storage facilities and ships docked in harbors. They would also attack ships that were caught in the open. (0:19:50) They also worked bombing New Guinea. He was then sent to Hollandia, where he set up the base for a month. They flew bombing missions to Ceram and Western New Guinea. (0:22:10) His squadron was then transferred to Sanapur, Western New Guinea, where they made bombing runs to Borneo. (0:22:35) They were then transferred to another based, where they continued bombing. (0:23:00) After this, they moved along to Puerta Princesa in the Philippines, where they flew missions to Indochina. Here, he flew a total of 52 missions before he was sent back to the US in May 1945. (0:24:05) He got his separation papers in July 1945 and then joined the reserves. (0:24:34) His duties as lead bombardier (which were about half of his missions) included flying in the lead plane and directing bombing. During the missions where he was not the lead bombardier, he flew in the wing and let someone else do these duties. (0:25:02) They had 12 planes in their squadron, and would generally fly with other squadrons during bombing runs. The number of squadrons and where they went depended on the target. For instance, they would bomb runways with four squadrons. (0:27:40) They sometimes flew low altitude missions, where they would strafe and firebomb. These missions were the most dangerous, and they lost several aircraft on these missions. Their plane was hit on one of these missions, but the pilot was able to salvage the engine that got hit and they made it back to base. (0:31:45) Another time, his plane was hit while on a bombing mission by antiaircraft fire. They had many holes in the fuselage, one of the cables to the rudder was severed, and the tail gunner was hit in the hand. They found out that intelligence had missed some antiaircraft positions, leading to their being hit. (0:36:05) Their living conditions were usually ok. They lived in tents, and they used mosquito nets to attempt to ward of malaria. They usually ate normal K Rations, but when they got to Hollandia, they were allowed to fly to Australia to pick up fresh food to eat. For meat they were usually given mutton. (0:39:12) There were only a few issues with tropical disease in his unit. He got a fungal infection in his toes. (0:40:10) They got leave in Australia from time to time. He was able to go to Sydney. Normally GIs were forced to stay in Sydney, but he befriended a girl whose father was a government official, and this allowed him to leave Sydney. (0:43:45) They were warned not to go off of the base because there were Japanese in the area, and they were also warned that the local populations were at times hostile. (0:47:30) At one point, one of the men in the bunk next to his was killed in combat. (0:47:55) He stayed on longer than the normal allotted time. � (0:48:45) Their stay at Puerta Princesa was very nice, because they were in close proximity to some very nice beaches. Post-Service (0:49:45)   He worked as an engineer after the war in mechanical and electrical design. Also worked for General Motors � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KlocW Title A name given to the resource Kloc, Walter (Interview outline and video), 2009 Description An account of the resource Walter Kloc served in the Air Force during World War II. He joined the Air Force prior to the attacks on Pearl Harbor, and was called up for active duty on December 10, 1941. He worked as a bombardier on a B-24 aircraft in the Pacific Theatre. Some of the locations of his bombing runs included Borneo, New Guinea, and Indochina. He flew 45 missions before he was sent home, and he worked as an engineer after the War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kloc, Walter Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-19 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5aaee66ac7347e72ff90b9ce115fa8d7.mp4 c69431f02424aa8e86645eb6ca0d1cff https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1ba680797f32296c85ecd5ef1c510a3a.pdf db560ea5fc38cb45ad94fd7e5e97f910 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project The Cold War Ron Kloet Interview Length: (01:59:46:00) Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:18:00)  Kloet was born of Aug. 8th, 1936, on the west side of Grand Rapids, Michigan; as Kloet grew up, his family moved around, from apartments to one house then another, two-story house that was only two blocks away from their old house (00:00:18:00) o Kloet attended Christian school for K-9th grade and took a single year of Christian high school but did not like it because he did not know anyone and the high school was so far away from his home that Kloet had to ride a city bus, which was inconvenient, especially when the bus workers went on strike (00:00:58:00) o Instead, Kloet convinced his parents to allow him to attend Union High School and Kloet graduated from there in 1954 (00:01:20:00)  Up until the start of World War II, Kloet’s mother was a housewife and his father worked as a photo engraver for a company, making plates for newspapers, a job that last for forty years (00:01:37:00) o However, while Kloet and siblings were in school, their mother got a part-time job working at a grocery store; after the war, Kloet’s mother took a job working at a brass company (00:02:06:00)  After graduating from high school, Kloet left home and enlisted in the Air Force in January, 1955 (00:02:39:00) o Kloet had been raised the old-fashioned way, that children were expected to leave the nest, and when he graduated from high school, a lot of people suggested Kloet go to college to get a practical degree (00:03:07:00)  Therefore, Kloet briefly attended Davenport University for a semester but because he had to pay rent, Kloet needed income, so he took a job, attending classes in the morning and working in the evening (00:03:30:00)  Kloet was also not happy with the school; not that he could not handle it, he just did not like it (00:03:56:00) o Kloet was restless and wanted to get away, so he decided to enlist and join the service (00:04:01:00)  When he first enlisted, Kloet took entrance tests at the induction center and scored high (00:04:08:00)  Kloet did not want to be drafted because friends of his who had graduated from high school in 1954 were drafted and went to Korea [the armistice had been signed in 1953, but the Americans maintained a strong presence there] (00:04:18:00) o Because Kloet scored high on the tests, the military chose to send Kloet to the Air Force; when he enlisted, Kloet did not chose a specific branch to join but the military chose to send him to the Air Force security services (00:04:41:00) �  Kloet went for his basic training at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas and that marked the first time Kloet had ever been to Texas (00:05:12:00) o Kloet spent January through April at Lackland to complete the twelve-week basic training course (00:05:26:00) o The basic training was typical of the time: going to the rifle range, physical training, a lot of marching, and some classroom work (00:05:38:00) o It was not hard for Kloet to make the adjustment from a civilian lifestyle to a military lifestyle; physically, it was a little more challenging because Kloet had never been athletic, liking to read books instead (00:06:01:00) o A beautiful part of basic training was the Kloet met a cross-section of American society; before, Kloet had only known the Poles and Dutch living on the west side of Grand Rapids and not much outside of that (00:06:18:00)  When Kloet had been going to grade school, his uncle who had served during World War II lived with Kloet’s family both before and after his service and he filled Kloet’s head with stories of his experiences while serving in the Navy (00:06:52:00)  Kloet had other uncles who had served as well and they told their stories to Kloet, so Kloet was always interested in life outside of Grand Rapids (00:07:18:00)  During basic training, there were some African-American and Latino recruits but a lot of the recruits were from the South, a demographic that supplied a large amount of enlistees for the entire military (00:07:31:00)  When he first enlisted, Kloet went from Grand Rapids to Detroit, where more the recruits were picked up and some of them were African-American (00:07:50:00)  Kloet was not too knowledgeable about the race issue because he had grown up in Grand Rapids and the issue really hit home when the recruits were taking the train down to Texas (00:07:59:00) o The train stopped at a small town in Texas where the recruits were allowed to get off to get some food, as there was none on the train (00:08:13:00) o However, the African-Americans were barred from entering a restaurant (00:08:24:00)  The majority of the drill instructors were from the South, but they did not treat the African-American soldiers any differently and yelled at everybody (00:08:45:00) After the first twelve weeks, Kloet received orders for his training school at Kelly Air Force Base, which was only a few miles away from Lackland (00:09:03:00) o After the twelve weeks, Kloet received leave, so he bought a plane ticket and flew back to Grand Rapids before returning to Kelly to go through what the Air Force had termed as “technical school” (00:09:18:00)  Kelly attended the headquarters and training school for the Air Force Security service (00:09:43:00) o Kloet’s training at Kelly consisted of learning how to analyze traffic from intercepted communications using codes, which was similar to doing crossword puzzles (00:09:53:00) �  Another big part of the training was pattern analysis and Kloet worked as a signals analyst, working with collected material; his full job title was “radio intercept traffic analyst” (00:10:22:00) o Kloet’s training at Kelly lasted for another four months, from April through August (00:10:49:00) o During the training, Kloet was allowed to go off-base and into San Antonio, as well as going once to Padre Island on the Gulf of Mexico with other airmen who lived in the barracks with Kloet, if only to walk along the beach (00:11:02:00)  Kloet would go into San Antonio, which had a nice theater and several nice restaurants, although it was hot in the summer (00:11:18:00)  San Antonio was somewhat unique because there had always been Air Force bases there; there were more bases around San Antonio than any other place in the country (00:11:34:00)  There was Brooks Air Force Base, Randolph Air Force Base, Kelly Air Force Base, Lackland Air Force Base and one other one, plus the Army had Fort Sam Houston (00:10:45:00)  There was a lot of military presence in San Antonio, which made for a friendly atmosphere towards the military (00:12:03:00) After completing the training at Kelly, Kloet was to ship overseas, so he was given a thirty-day leave and he went home before reporting to Travis Air Force Base, which was north of San Francisco (00:12:22:00) o Eventually, Kloet and the others who were deploying were placed aboard a ship, the Mitchell, and taken from San Francisco to Japan, a two-week voyage that ended when the soldier arrived in Yokohama, Japan (00:12:53:00)  The Mitchell was a troop transport that was terrible, especially during any rough weather; the ship would bounce all over the place during rough weather and people would get sick (00:13:30:00)  The people onboard the Mitchell were a mix of servicemen who were all being re-assigned (00:14:00:00) o When he first deployed, Kloet did not know which specific unit he was supposed to join, be it a group, wing, or squadron; Kloet knew where to go but not which unit to go to (00:14:09:00) Deployment (00:14:30:00)  Kloet’s first impression of Japan happened when the Mitchell was getting close to the islands; as the ship got closer to the islands, the servicemen sniffed the air and asked what the smell was (00:14:30:00) o It was October and that was the time that the Japanese farmers put fertilizer on their soil; however, the fertilizer the Japanese used was night soil, which roughly translated as human excrement (00:14:50:00) o The farmers would put the fertilizer on the soil and the heat from the sun would make it so the people on the ship out at sea could smell the fertilizer before they even reached land (00:15:21:00)  After the ship landed in Yokohama, Kloet was assigned to 6902nd Special Communications Group, which was stationed at Shiroi Air Force Base, which was to the northeast of Tokyo (00:15:38:00) �   o At the time, there were several larger Air Force bases in Tokyo but Shiroi was supposedly “off the radar” and nobody outside a select group was supposed to know where it was (00:16:15:00) o As Kloet rode to the base, he looked out the windows and watched the countryside of Japan, which was pretty (00:16:38:00) o All the units at Shiroi were intelligence; there was a wing and a group, while the group had several smaller elements but they were all intelligence (00:16:49:00) While at Shiroi, Kloet did his analyst work in a building with no windows or central air, all to make sure that no signals could get out (00:17:09:00) o The work consisted of analyzing the paperwork that Kloet receive and placing the results on sheets that could be feed into an early computer (00:17:52:00)  Each analyst covered a specific area, Kloet covered the Soviet Union, and after the information came out of the computer, Kloet went over the form again to make any corrections that needed to be made (00:18:23:00)  The forms then went out by messenger to a higher headquarters but Kloet did not know anything about that (00:18:46:00) o Intelligence, and signals intelligence in particular, amounted to a 365-day-a-year job (00:19:01:00)  One of the benefits of being in intelligence was that Kloet was working at a job, not training; the only time Kloet participated in any extent to what could be described as training, was when he was with the 3rd Infantry Division in Germany between 1972 and 1973, although it was not a live mission (00:19:14:00)  On all the other assignments, there was a live, 365-day-a-year, 24/7 mission and Kloet worked a part of that mission, which helped keep his interest in the mission because he was doing something (00:19:48:00)  Kloet had to keep track of whoever the bad guys were at the time, be it the Soviets or the Chinese (00:20:13:00) The analysts operated on a daily schedule, although nobody woke them up in the morning and there were no formations; instead, the analysts had a normal work schedule where they had to be working by seven-thirty in the morning (00:20:31:00) o The personnel on the base lived in barracks, with two men to a room, although the NCOs and officers had better rooms (00:20:44:00) o After getting up, Kloet would go to the mess hall, eat, return to his room to clean up then go to work (00:20:57:00) o To get to where he worked, Kloet had to go through a guarded gate and anyone who wanted to get through the gate needed a badge with their name and picture; after the guard checked each person out, the person went through the gate, into the building and to their office (00:21:15:00) o The analysts needed to be to their jobs by eight o’clock and would be supervised by a sergeant and an officer, in Kloet’s case, a 1st Lieutenant (00:21:32:00) o A standard shift for the analysts was eight working hours plus a meal break squeezed in at some point (00:21:59:00) While Kloet was stationed at the base, he was able to leave and travel around Japan in order to see the sights (00:22:13:00) �    o The base had a bus that took personnel to a train station in the nearby town of Goko, where the personnel road on a small train down to the town of Mazado; from Mazado, the personnel took a train into Tokyo (00:22:16:00)  In total, it took roughly an hour to get from Goko into Tokyo; the trains were nice, comfortable, and always on time (00:22:40:00) o Downtown Tokyo at that time was still not the city Kloet saw when he went back to Japan in 1986, and still had open sewers running through the town (00:22:50:00)  Nevertheless, the main part of the city had some nice jewelry stores and restaurants (00:23:16:00) At the time, although there were no major conflicts in the world, things were still happening, such as the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and troubles in the Middle East (00:23:23:00) o The Hungarian Revolution was a major event and it reached the point that the personnel on the base thought they were going to go to war; the personnel had to have their duffel bags ready because the thinking was that if it went, the personnel would be shipped to Germany and operate there (00:23:40:00)  The Hungarian Revolution made Kloet’s job exciting because for a while, the Hungarians were beating back the Russians (00:24:01:00)  The strategic problem was whether the President of the United States would go to war but given the time period and the equipment available to the Americans, who had disarmed after the end of World War II, Kloet believes that the Russian could have run the Americans over just by sheer numbers (00:24:23:00) o Another crisis was when an American aircraft was shot down near the Russianheld Kurile Islands but again, nothing came of it; nevertheless, it kept the job interesting for Kloet (00:25:54:00) On one of his trips, Kloet received a three-day R&R and went to the small town of Nikko, which was a Buddhist/Shinto temple complex; Kloet ended up taking numerous photos of the temples, which were beautiful (00:25:14:00) Kloet also liked the food that was available, including a Hungarian restaurant in Tokyo run by a woman who had escaped from Hungary; it was at the restaurant that Kloet received his first introduction to real Hungarian goulash (00:26:41:00) o There were Japanese workers on the base doing a lot of support functions and there was a kiosk built on the base for Japanese food; the food at the kiosk was good and eventually, all the GIs were eating there, leaving nothing for the Japanese workers (00:27:08:00) o Although the GIs were eventually forbidden to eat at the kiosk, Kloet still went to Japanese restaurants in Tokyo and at one restaurant, tried sukiyaki made from Kobe beef, which, because the dollar was worth more than the yen at the time, was not that big of a thing for the soldiers (00:27:37:00) Kloet spent two years and two months in Japan, having extended his tour by two months over the standard two years (00:28:21:00) o If a soldier was unaccompanied, his deployment lasted two years and if a soldier was accompanied [by family], the deployment was three years, although there were not a lot of accompanied tours at the time (00:28:20:00) �  o At the time, a person’s promotion depended on which command he was in; Kloet was in the Security Command, where the promotions were terrible, although the general tests score for the personnel in the command were much higher than personnel in Strategic Air Command or Tactical Air Command (00:28:40:00)  Kloet scored extremely well in all the tests but the promotions still went to either SAC and TAC (00:29:13:00)  Kloet chose to extend his deployment because it appeared that a promotion would be coming for him with the next set of orders because he had climbed through the chain of command (00:29:28:00)  However, about a month before Kloet was to receive his promotion, a bunch of other personnel from came outside Security Command who had more seniority than Kloet and he was pushed back down the ladder (00:29:42:00) o When he was pushed back down the ladder, Kloet decided that his deployment was done after the two-month extension and he was done with the Air Force because he saw no future in remaining (00:29:56:00)  In the same time period, Kloet had applied for Officer Training School but was told he was too young and to apply the following year, which just acted like frosting on the cake for why he should get out (00:30:04:00) After Japan, Kloet returned to San Antonio but continued doing the same type of work, in the same type of buildings, although the buildings were air-conditioned (00:30:24:00) o Eventually, Kloet requested a drop from the Air Force so he could attend Michigan State University; Kloet applied for an early out and was accepted by Michigan State, so he got out in December 1958 (00:30:39:00) Once he was out of the military, Kloet packed his car and drove continually until he was out of Texas before stopping; Kloet returned home to drop his uniforms off before heading to Michigan State, which was on the quarter system at the time (00:31:09:00) o Kloet began at Michigan State as a “non-specific” student and did not have a major but was interested in Russia because of the work he had done in the Air Force; although he never learned the language, he knew some words and was interested in Russian geography and culture (00:31:32:00)  Kloet started off taking Russian language and literature before signing up for history courses and eventually declaring his major as Russian; Kloet took Russian history, Russian political science, and Soviet economics, as well as a German minor for his final two years (00:31:54:00) o When Kloet finished his degree, he thought about immediately continuing on to a Master’s Program and actually started the Master’s Program when he found out his Russian was intellectual (00:33:09:00)  Kloet had spent four years memorizing words, structure, and knowing how to put the right words in the right order yet when he started the Master’s Program, it was about the phonology of the language, which Kloet had not studied (00:33:20:00) o Going into the Master’s Program was actually Kloet’s plan “B” because he had applied for jobs, although the job pool for someone with a Russian degree and a background in signal’s intelligence was small, so Kloet applied to the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency (00:33:54:00) �  Kloet ended up with interviewing with the CIA at the University of Michigan but he heard nothing from either the CIA or NSA after that and because summer was coming, Kloet was getting anxious, so he applied for the Master’s Program, which took him in (00:34:31:00) Kloet did not even have to take an aptitude test for the Master’s Program because he had just completed four years and although the literature aspect of the program was fine, when they started discussing the phonology, he was completely out of it (00:35:29:00) The Central Intelligence Agency (00:36:01:00)  As he was going through grad school, Kloet was hating it but all of a sudden, he received a call from the CIA, who wanted Kloet to come down for an interview because they wanted to hire him (00:36:01:00) o By this time, things were getting financially tight for Kloet because he was paying for the graduate school and although he had had a small GI bill, it did not count towards anything (00:36:36:00)  Kloet agreed to the CIA’s offer and the CIA said they were going to send tickets to him via priority mail (00:36:50:00) o Kloet received the CIA offer on Monday and by Wednesday, he had the tickets, although he also received a call from the NSA, saying that they wanted to hire Kloet as well; however, Kloet decided to go with the CIA (00:37:02:00) o When they called, the CIA asked how much time would Kloet need to get there, so Kloet loaded all his possessions into a Volkswagen Beetle his father had helped him purchase and drove to Washington D.C., where the CIA paid for a hotel room in downtown (00:37:35:00) o The CIA sent Kloet and several others to school in downtown Washington for training for several months; at the same time, Kloet and the others were scheduled for polygraph tests (00:38:30:00)  That was Kloet’s first time with a polygraph test and although he has gone through several others, this was the only one where the questions were personal, asking about Kloet’s life (00:39:20:00)  There were two types of polygraphs, counter-intelligence and lifestyle; lifestyle tests covered every facet of someone’s personality, associations, feelings, and to make sure someone was not crazy (00:39:44:00) o As soon as someone passed their polygraph test, they went to a psychological evaluation and were then given a job (00:40:07:00)  Kloet passed all the tests and received a job working in the main CIA building, where he worked from January 1963 through August 1964 before he quit (00:40:23:00) o Kloet was considered a temporary employee, which meant he was only going to work at the CIA for two years, during which time he was evaluated (00:40:41:00)  At the time, the CIA had several missions and Kloet’s job was working in the Human Intelligence section; there were several support jobs in the section, such as editing paperwork, and that was where Kloet worked and it was a boring job (00:41:04:00) o Most of the workers with Kloet were in a test period and the only permanent employees were the supervisors and above; the work was simple but the supervisors were watching the workers at all times (00:41:20:00) �    o The work Kloet did was boring and the people who were the supervisors had either worked in the field but were declared persona non grata in whatever country they were stationed or the people had quirks or were divorcees or had some sort of physical or mental problem (00:41:48:00) o Kloet did not see any progress because he was not being trained for anything that he would do in the future (00:42:20:00)  Kloet would occasionally make contact with a person in another section but that was usually because there was a problem that needed to be rectified (00:42:29:00)  However, whenever Kloet would go someplace, he had to tell his supervisor because she was afraid he would try to get out of the job or was getting too smart and trying to take her job (00:42:41:00)  The other supervisor Kloet worked under was physically injured and needed mechanical assistance but always wanted to his workers were he could see them (00:42:54:00) Kloet did not like the work he did at the CIA and he eventually talked with a co-worker who was frustrated as well; the co-worker said that he was an officer in the National Guard and asked if Kloet had ever considered join the Army Reserves and getting a commission (00:43:11:00) o Kloet asked what he needed to do and the co-worker said Kloet needed to take a test and go before an officers’ review board that would evaluate him (00:43:31:00) o Kloet decided that he would try it, so he filled out the application, did all the things he was supposed to do, went before the review board, and the next thing he knew, Kloet was approved, so he was sworn into the Reserves, although he continued working at the CIA (00:43:47:00) Apart from being treated like he did not know anything, Kloet did not like working in an environment like that (00:44:21:00) o Eventually, the CIA told Kloet what their future plans were for him but he was not the type to go sneaking around, but he was told to take the offer or leave it; Kloet did not like the idea of being a spy and preferred bring in signals intelligence and doing that type of work (00:44:38:00) o Kloet’s commission into the Reserves was in the Army Intelligence Security, which was signals intelligence, which the CIA was not happy about; however, the CIA could not control the Department of the Army and which branch they gave Kloet a commission in (00:44:13:00) Due to all the frustration from his job at the CIA, Kloet eventually submitted a form requesting active duty, which was approved and he was told to report to Fort Devens, Massachusetts (00:45:37:00) o Kloet went into the CIA about a month before he was supposed to report to Fort Devens and said he was resigning, upon which the CIA immediately transferred him to another menial job within the same division, which just reinforced Kloet’s decision (00:46:00:00) When he went on active duty, Kloet went to train at Fort Devens, which used to be the home of the U.S. Army Security Service training school (00:46:25:00) �U.S. Army Security Service (00:46:46:00)  Kloet reported to Fort Devens in September 1964 and went through schooling there, which was enjoyable; Kloet stayed until December 5th then received orders to deploy over to Europe to join the U.S. Army Security Service Europe (USASE) (00:46:46:00) o Once he received the orders, Kloet returned home and dropped his car off with his father while also giving his father the power of attorney to sell the car (00:47:32:00)  After his leave, Kloet went to McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey, where the Air Force flew him and several others first to Gander, Newfoundland, then to Ireland and finally to Frankfurt, Germany (00:48:04:00)  When Kloet arrived in Frankfurt, there was a driver and an officer waiting in a sedan to pick him up and take him to the headquarters for processing, although Kloet did not know yet what his specific assignment was going to be (00:48:54:00) o During the processing, the Army placed Kloet in a building across the street from the headquarters and after he was processed, Kloet received orders to go to Berlin to be assigned to the security unit there (00:49:20:00) o Kloet was told that when he went to Berlin, he was to wear civilian clothing and would be considered a civilian; however, Kloet had his hair cut in a military fashion and only had a single civilian outfit, so he had to rush and find civilian clothes because the duty train for Berlin was leaving within a week (00:50:08:00)  Kloet also needed a passport, a civilian I.D. card, and several other items, so the Army had someone escort him around the expedite the entire process (00:50:30:00) o Once Kloet got onto the duty train, he had his passport with him and once the train crossed the border at Helmstadt, it went straight into Berlin; at Helmstadt, Russians came aboard the train and Kloet gave them his passport, although he does not know what the Russians did with it before returning (00:50:46:00)  Once Kloet made it to Berlin, he was met by members of the security team he was going to be a member of; in Berlin, Kloet was housed in bachelor officers’ quarters (BOQs) near the headquarters for the Berlin Brigade; between the BOQs and the Berlin Brigade Headquarters was a PX and a sports stadium (00:51:20:00) o The room Kloet was assigned was nice, with large windows, a kitchen, a bathroom and a cleaning person assigned to him who, for twenty bucks a month, would clean, wash dishes, and iron Kloet’s clothes (00:52:11:00)  Kloet also bought an old Volkswagen Beetle from a soldier who was leaving (00:52:43:00) o Kloet worked in Berlin from December 1964 until August 1965, when he received orders to report back to Frankfurt because his slot in the unit was vacated and no longer needed to be filled because of budgetary reasons (00:53:06:00)  After returning to Frankfurt, Kloet was assigned to a service company, but joined a detachment of the company based near the main train station in Frankfurt (00:54:11:00) o After arriving at the detachment, Kloet received the de-facto position of being the detachment commander; the previous detachment commander had rotated home, so the Army gave Kloet the position without officially slotting him into it (00:54:42:00) � o In Kloet’s particular specialty, if the Army wanted to keep a soldier, then they could keep the soldier, not matter how much the soldier fought against it; the only way someone could get out at the time was to volunteer for Vietnam (00:55:06:00) o Kloet wanted to do the work he had been doing while in Berlin, which was where his Russian and German were the most beneficial; however, Kloet did such a good job, the Army decided to keep him with the detachment (00:55:22:00) o Nevertheless, despite living like a king with the detachment, that was not how Kloet wanted to spend the rest of his deployment in Europe, doing management tasks, such as: assigning KP duty, promotions boards, and inspections (00:56:06:00) Eventually, Kloet put in a volunteer request to deploy to Vietnam and although his commanders did not like the decision, they could not stop him, so Kloet left Germany in June 1966 for Fort Bragg, North Carolina to process for overseas replacement into a combat zone (00:56:42:00) o At Fort Bragg, Kloet and the other replacements went through gas chambers, uniform replacement, and firing weapons (00:57:09:00) o The training was for roughly three months, from June until September, before Kloet left to deploy to Vietnam (00:57:34:00) Vietnam Deployment (00:58:11:00)  When he deployed to Vietnam, Kloet thought he would be flying to Vietnam; initially, Kloet and other soldiers flew from Pope Air Force Base, south of Fort Bragg, on a chartered airliner to Travis Air Force Base in California (00:58:11:00) o The next thing he knew, Kloet and the other soldiers were loaded on a boat at the Oakland Army terminal, a two-stack troop transport (00:58:54:00) o The transport sailed from Oakland to Tacoma, Washington to pick up artillery soldiers from Fort Lewis, Washington; Kloet was part of a specific “packet” of roughly fifty soldiers, officers included, deploying to Saigon (00:59:19:00) o Once the transport got out into the ocean, a few things happened: first, one of the men in the packet developed severe asthma and although there was a doctor on the transport, he did not have the drugs to take care of the asthma (00:59:50:00)  Worried about whether the soldier would survive, the crew diverted the transport close enough to Okinawa that an amphibious aircraft could fly out and pick up the soldier (01:00:48:00) o The transport continued on its course and landed in Okinawa, where everyone was given an overnight liberty; the next day, drunk soldiers were coming back to the ship and some were purposely diving over the rails of the ship and into the water (01:01:18:00) o Once everyone got back aboard the transport and had made it a good way to Vietnam, the soldiers were told that the order of debarkation had to be changed because of an enemy offensive in the northern part of the country (01:01:46:00)  The change in debarkation meant the soldiers landed in Nha Trang, in the northern part of South Vietnam (01:02:04:00) o The entire voyage took thirty-one days, so it was getting into October by the time the soldiers left the transport (01:02:12:00) �   o Apart from the soldiers on the ship, there were also supplies for the soldiers; however, because the debarkation order had changed, all the supplies were in the order for all the units as the transport sailed up the coast (01:02:20:00)  Instead, the supplies were placed on floating barges in the Bay of Nha Trang while the transport was off-loaded and re-loaded in the new order for the voyage down the coast (01:02:43:00) o In Na Trang, some soldiers off-loaded who were supposed to head north because of the enemy offensive; after Nha Trang, the transport sailed to Qui Nhon and Cam Ranh Bay before finally arriving in Vung Tau (01:02:54:00) Once at Vung Tau, the remaining soldiers off-loaded from the troop transport to a smaller landing craft, which took them to the shore (01:03:48:00) o Near where soldiers, including some tankers who were joining the 11th Cavalry, were waiting was an airstrip made from metal, PSP strips (01:03:52:00) o Eventually, C-123s picked up Kloet and sixty-three other soldiers and took them all to Bien Hoa Air Force Base, which the airplanes were not supposed to do (01:04:20:00) o When the soldiers arrived at Bien Hoa, the packet commander, a captain, went into operations with the packet’s shipping orders but the personnel in operations told the captain the packet as supposed to be in Saigon, so the personnel said that they would make contact to move the soldiers (01:04:53:00)  The soldiers waited at Bien Hoa before buses and a couple of trucks finally came up; the soldiers loaded on the buses and their equipment went onto the back of the trucks (01:05:29:00)  The temperature was extremely hot and on the bus, the windows were kept up with screening over the front of them for grenades to bounce off of (01:05:46:00) o Once aboard the buses, the soldiers rode to a compound in a district of Saigon; although the permanent enlisted quarters were already in the compound, the officers were given temporary quarters in a hotel across the street (01:06:10:00) When they arrived, the soldiers were assigned to work at the Combined Intelligence Center, which was in a temporary structure while their permanent structure was being built at the time (01:06:38:00) o After receiving their quarters at a hotel in downtown Saigon, the officers were bused to where their soldiers were stay, in an old Air Force hanger on Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base that had been partitioned into a two-floor structure (01:06:54:00) o As the soldiers started settling in, Kloet had still not adapted to the heat; it was the “dry” season, so the temperatures were elevated (01:07:22:00) Eventually, the soldiers were moved into the permanent structure on Tan Son Nhut and most of them were assigned to work in the Ground Order Battle section (01:07:36:00) o Within the section, there were teams that corresponded to the different sections of Vietnam: I Corps, II Corps, III Corps, IV Corps, Laos / Cambodia, and North Vietnam, and the sections were all headed by officers and a warrant officer, (01:07:55:00) �Kloet was a 1st Lieutenant assigned to the 1st team, which covered I Corps and worked as the night branch chief with a lieutenant colonel was the night commander (01:08:22:00) o Eventually, Kloet took over command of the Ground Order Battle section because he received a promotion; the position basically involved writing efficiency reports, supervising production, receiving distribution and controlling an incidents team (01:08:41:00)  The incidents team worked out of Kloet’s office and took the data produced by the section teams and processed the information into a computer database (01:09:12:00) The section did studies on both the South Vietnamese Army and enemy infiltrations, such as the size and weaponry of the enemy unit (01:09:49:00) o Initially, the section relied heavily on the Vietnamese data, although they were having the same problems as the Americans, an overall lack of intelligence (01:10:16:00) o In 1966, the section was using a lot of “agent reports”, which were reports write by a military intelligence group that Kloet’s battalion was a part of (01:10:36:00)  The military intelligence group had battalions that collected intelligence in the form of agent reports; however, it was very difficult to verify any information that was in the reports (01:11:00:00) o Nobody gave the agent reports much credence; the only reports that received credence, apart from reports received from the Vietnamese, was information captured by American soldiers, such as enemy orders (01:11:22:00)  There was a document translation center in the same compound as Kloet’s unit where they translated any captured enemy information (01:11:39:00)  The section did not receive any signals intelligence because nobody within the section was cleared for that (01:11:55:00) o When an American unit made contact with the enemy at specific coordinates, the information was feed into the computer and basic map was printed out with dots and numbers correlating to every incident in the country, although the numbers did not differentiate between whether a report was real or fake (01:12:31:00)  However, in the more heavily contested areas, there were large concentrations of dots and finding a pattern became difficult; nevertheless, the information from each incident was stored in a database and with program, could be extracted (01:13:19:00)  Using the information from the printouts and the database, the soldiers in the section were able to create studies (01:13:38:00) o Kloet worked in the section for a year and in that time, the soldiers made several important studies, such as the actually number of NVA (01:13:49:00) At one point, a lieutenant colonel from the production division of MACV came to the unit; the production division was a major part of J-2 and worked to print the intelligence reports (01:14:16:00) o The lieutenant colonel came down after the section did a study about the number of enemy soldiers in country (the total strength of both NVA and VC units in South Vietnam) and came up with a figure around 300,000 (01:14:44:00)    �  MACV disagreed, believing that the figure was too large, although CIA intelligence supported the section’s study (01:15:02:00) o There was to be a large conference using the section’s study, which the soldiers had meticulously created using the information from their database and the commanders wanted to make sure the information was accurate (01:15:20:00) o The section had an adding machine and one of the incidents team members was very good with it but the lieutenant colonel insisted that an officer do it, so Kloet had the lieutenant in charge of the incidents team run the machine (01:16:08:00)  When the figures were run again and they came back to what the section had first reported, so they were given to a colonel whom the soldiers in the section thought understood the information (01:16:47:00)  However, like a lot of people who thought promotions were more important than doing what was right, the colonel went to the conference, where the study, which the entire section had spent a large amount of time work on, was thrown out (01:17:05:00) o The section had compiled the report on enemy troop strength in the spring and in August 1967, a Colonel Graham, later general, came along and became the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (01:17:34:00)  Graham was a soldier whose star appeared to be on the rise and when the Army wanted a study done about the ability of the enemy to perform offensives in the South, Kloet’s section reported that the enemy could conduct divisional-sized offensives and attacks (01:18:26:00) o The section’s original reports were thrown out at the conference because Sec. Of Defense McNamara was fighting with the director of the CIA (01:19:14:00) Colonel Graham eventually left and Kloet rotated out and back to Fort Bragg; however, in January 1968, the Tet Offensive occurred, with the enemy operating in divisions and making attacks throughout South Vietnam (01:20:20:00) Inter-deployment (01:21:17:00)  Kloet stayed at Fort Bragg until March 1968 before volunteering to leave; while at Fort Bragg, Kloet managed to miss the Tet Offensive (01:21:17:00) o While at Fort Bragg, Kloet was a commander in the headquarters service company; within service units, there was a headquarters company and Kloet was the company commander (01:21:33:00)  Kloet had responsibility for all the barracks, the motor pool, and supplies for the battalion headquarters (01:21:53:00) o The battalion Kloet joined was aerial reconnaissance support, which used planes to take photographs and imagery interpreters to analyze the pictures (01:22:09:00)  However, because of the war, none of the units were at full strength; the headquarters company alone was larger than the rest of the detachments in the battalion (01:22:32:00) o There would be problems with supply or the motor pool and it did not seem to be getting any better, whereas in Vietnam, Kloet at least knew where the enemy was; nevertheless, Kloet managed to get the unit organized (01:22:57:00) �  In December, Kloet came down with an illness and spent two weeks in a hospital; although he had not thought about going back to Vietnam, while he was in the hospital, the battalion commander allowed Kloet’s supply sergeant to get an early drop and deploy to Germany (01:23:25:00) o The deployment of the supply sergeant should have taken place while Kloet was there because when Kloet returned to the company, he was given a supply sergeant who came in and told Kloet that they were in trouble because some things, such as sheets, pillowcases, and blankets, were missing (01:24:04:00)  At the time, a lot of the major equipment was moved around so much that most people did not know where it was but because they were large items, they were squared away quickly; however, the missing sheets and pillowcases indicated that some trading had been going on (01:24:34:00) o The supply sergeant was a good trader, so he went to friends who were assigned to a basic training brigade and was able to get some trainees help him with the inventories (01:24:48:00) o After new supply sergeant did the inventories, the unit wound up missing six watches, which at the time, had individual serial numbers that were kept in the property book as property of the arm (01:25:13:00)  The boxes were on the shelves but the watches were not in the boxes, so they sent a letter to Germany and the deployed former supply sergeant had to pay money for the watches (01:25:32:00) As Kloet was getting everything organized the way that the battalion commander wanted, Kloet felt that nothing looked like it was going to last (01:25:56:00) o When he first got the job, Kloet opened his desk and inside were two full and a handful of partially full bottles of Maalox; Kloet never met his predecessor but after going through the process of organizing everything, Kloet understood why his predecessor drank the Maalox (01:26:16:00) o Expect for the commander, who was a colonel, and his deputy, who was a major, Kloet was the senior officer on the battalion staff, although he was only a captain, which was not typical of battalion staffs (01:26:42:00)  As part of the battalion staff, Kloet had: a terminal infantry officer incharge of supply who was close to getting out and did nothing; a warrant officer in charge of the motor pool who, although he was in maintenance, was in artillery maintenance, which had nothing to do with working with vehicles; no personnel officer apart from a 2nd Lieutenant; and no operations officer (01:27:16:00) o Once, there was to be an inspection of the motor pool, so Kloet was ordered to get the motor pool ready, so he had sent a detail from the headquarters company to go down and maintain the vehicles; however, the soldiers in detail were misused by warrant officer, who wanted the soldiers to take care of paperwork (01:28:04:00)  Because unit would get in trouble because of the motor pool, Kloet told his first sergeant that they needed to place another sergeant in charge of the detail to supervise the vehicle maintenance (01:28:52:00)  However, the warrant officer did not go to Kloet but went to the major or the colonel and complained that Kloet was interfering with what the �   warrant officer was doing, so Kloet had to go up to explained himself and the colonel agreed with him (01:29:08:00) The situations within the battalion were making Vietnam look good, so in January 1968, Kloet put in a request to volunteer for Vietnam (01:29:39:00) o After the request, the Army sent him to Fort Holabird, Maryland, to receive training to be tactical intelligence staff officer, which was the first course the Army had done that; the Army realized they needed trained company-level captains and below in the battalions if the battalions were going to accomplish anything (01:30:05:00)  The battalions were not able to just go into the jungle, manage to bump into the enemy, and expect to be successful (01:30:28:00)  Kloet ended up being the class leader and stayed from March until the end of May (01:30:38:00) Once he completed the course at the end of May, Kloet received a leave then flew to Saigon, where he went through the Long Binh Army Replacement Depot (01:30:52:00) o From Long Binh, Kloet traveled to Cam Ranh Bay and Nha Trang; Kloet had to go to the different bases because the airlines did not fly directly to the corps headquarters in Na Traing (01:31:21:00) o From Na Traing, Kloet went to Pleiku then to the division area at Ban Me Thuot before finally joining his team (01:31:48:00) A problem Kloet and his soldiers faced at the time was determining correct figure numbers for enemy troop strength (01:32:31:00) o Many times when units would go into the field and make contact with the enemy, they did not have time to make a correct count of every enemy soldier who was killed in that particular contact; as well, it was difficult to count specific casualties if a bomb was dropped on an area (01:32:39:00) o The Army had developed a formula and although Kloet does not remember the exact parameters, for every one dead enemy on the ground that the soldiers counted, there was an assumption that so many enemy soldiers were carried away because the enemy tended to carry their wounded and killed away (01:33:03:00)  The Army also applied the formula to wounded enemy soldiers, as the soldiers would see blood trails and could make assumptions about the number of wounded (01:33:43:00) o The soldiers also managed to capture information from the enemy and as time went on, they captured more paper intelligence which helped form enemy unit structures (01:33:59:00)  For example, if soldiers captured an enemy or found a piece of paper saying the enemy was from a specific unit within a larger unit, depending of the structure, Kloet and the other soldiers might not know anything about the soldier’s unit beyond the soldier’s platoon (01:34:26:00)  However, Kloet and the soldiers were able to marry different pieces of information and come to conclusions about the enemy units (01:34:38:00) o According to the information that the Vietnamese provided would say that an NVA division had “x” number of soldiers as its strength (01:34:47:00) �o Nevertheless, following large engagements, Kloet and others had no way of comparing how the actual casualty numbers compared to the strength of the enemy unit, which was were the formulas came from (01:35:07:00)  At the time, when someone would ask for information about a specific enemy unit, Kloet and his soldiers would provide a six-month history of the unit, stating the number of engagements they had been involved in and the number of casualties, which where then subtracted from the overall enemy unit’s strength (01:35:15:00)  However, the soldiers did not know the number of replacements that the unit received in that time, although the studies on infiltration helped somewhat (01:35:52:00)  Still, the infiltration studies only gave figures once the enemy forces entered Vietnam because the Americans had been pounding the forces all the way down the Ho Chi Minh trail (01:36:04:00) o As time went on, up until 1967 and 1968, there was not a good handle on the information about the combat effectiveness of the unit, especially in the southern areas; in the northern areas, there were a lot of big contacts (01:36:21:00) o The formulas the Army developed only supplied Kloet and the other soldiers with an approximate enemy strength but the fact that the figures Kloet and the others were getting was close to what the CIA provided them made the soldiers feel like they were on the right track; however, those figures did not match up with the figures that people in the Pentagon had (01:36:45:00)  For example, if something happened in Saigon, a report had to be at the Pentagon as soon as possible and the people in the Pentagon were making decisions based on what they were given directly (01:37:07:00)  Kloet recalls one time, during his second tour, when there was a contact with the enemy; that night, Kloet was in the bunker as the staff dutyofficer and the enemy was firing mortar shells that were landing on the roof of the bunker (01:37:32:00)  Kloet received a call from the higher headquarters in Nha Trang because they were receiving reports from other units and the headquarters wanted to know what direction the mortars were coming from (01:37:59:00)  Although he wanted to go off, Kloet said he did not know, ending the conversation; Kloet then talked with his colonel, telling him that the higher-ups wanted to know the direction of the mortar fire but the colonel told Kloet not to worry about it (01:38:21:00) o Much has been written about the micro-management of the Johnson Administration and Kloet always felt that although he disagreed with Kennedy, he had a handle on the Pentagon and could control those people, whereas Johnson seemed to let the McNamara and the others control the war while Johnson focused on his social agenda (01:39:00:00)  Therefore, Kloet feels that Johnson would react to a situation instead of making policy (01:39:47:00) �  o At Kloet’s level, he and his soldiers took whatever information they had and tried to stick it into some sort of order; nevertheless, Kloet and his soldiers were not privy to the high-level signals intelligence (01:40:38:00)  The Vietnamese general in charge of intelligence would talk with the Vietnamese working with Kloet and also sat in with the higher-level American intelligence officers; often, when the American’s presented information, the general said that the Vietnamese knew the information months before (01:40:54:00) Every day during his first tour, Kloet had contact with the Vietnamese intelligence because the Vietnamese and Americans worked as a combined unit (01:41:45:00) o However, whereas the Americans rotated soldiers in and out of the unit, the Vietnamese soldiers were permanent and many of the Vietnamese soldiers were bright but they never received recognition for being bright (01:42:07:00) o For whatever reason, the decision was made to allow a coup d’etat against the ruling Vietnamese administration and the decision was made that the Americans would run the war and get it to the point that they could turn the war over to the Vietnamese (01:42:56:00)  After the decision, the fighting went from counter-insurgency to an almost full-scale, linear war with divisions against divisions and battalions against battalions (01:43:18:00)  Nevertheless, Kloet feels that the decision exacerbated the problem because the more the Americans built up, the more forces the enemy sent in (01:43:30:00) While Kloet was in Saigon from 1966 to 1967, there was not fighting within the city, although there were incidents, particularly involving Saigon Annie (01:43:50:00) o Saigon Annie was a Viet Cong who rode on the back of a motorcycle and shooting at Americans who were at bus stops (01:43:57:00)  Stories about the shootings appeared in Stars & Stripes but Annie made a mistake when, one time, she approached the bus stop just outside an American base (01:44:10:00)  One of the Air Force police was at the bus stop and was armed with a shotgun; when he saw what the happening, the officer fired his shotgun, destroying Annie, the motorcycle driver and the motorcycle (01:44:41:00) o There were several nice restaurants in the city that the soldiers were able to visit, including a restaurant that served better French onion soup than what Kloet ate while in Europe (01:45:33:00)  A friend of Kloet’s, whom Kloet had attended college with, was also assigned to Saigon as part of a transportation unit and the two would get together at various times to go to dinner (01:45:36:00) o Eventually, the Army moved Kloet and the others into Cholon, which was the Chinese section of the city, although according to the map the soldiers had, their new location was close to an enemy company (01:46:01:00)  The Army then decided it was too dangerous for the officers, so they moved the officers again and Kloet was sent to a location along the road into Cholon, where he stayed for the remainder of his tour (01:46:21:00) �  o When the soldiers moved throughout the city, they did not take their weapons; the only major threat had been Saigon Annie and she was dead (01:47:10:00)  Nevertheless, there were some locations, such as Cholon, where the soldiers were advised not to go (01:47:21:00) Once Kloet got back to Fort Bragg, although there were a lot of military people around because it was a large base, they had been considered second-class citizens for a long time up until that point, especially with the war going on (01:47:53:00) o Several times, Kloet received letters from jewelry stores saying that a soldier had purchased a diamond ring but was not paying; Kloet would go to his commanding officer to ask if the Army had become a collection agency and the officer told Kloet to the store that they would do everything the could to get the soldier to pay his bills (01:48:30:00)  Kloet would ended up writing a letter saying that the Army would trying to get the soldier to pay his bills but that was it (01:48:59:00) o In Fayetteville, outside of the base, the soldiers were considered intruders although the base had been there for a long time (01:49:28:00)  The issue never became important until there were discussions about closing the base down, which caused changes in the attitudes towards the soldiers (01:49:37:00) During his second tour, Kloet worked as the intelligence advisor to the Vietnamese intelligence officer at the province capital (01:51:05:00) o There were also district levels and they had intelligence but the Americans did not have advisors at the district level; there was one but after he left, the Army did not fill the position (01:51:16:00) o Kloet dealt with a Vietnamese captain and Kloet’s job with the captain was Kloet had funds to pay for intelligence while the captain had to provide monthly receipts for what he had spent the funds on, such as paying his sources or buying equipment for his soldiers (01:52:10:00)  Kloet then had to report and turn in the receipts before getting more money (01:52:46:00) o As well, Kloet kept a journal, the only time he was able to do so; using cryptic abbreviations, Kloet reported what happened during any given day (01:52:58:00) o Every day, Kloet and his two workers had to write an intelligence report and send it to higher headquarters via telegraph but because of the programs with the telegraphs, he would often need to make copies of the reports and send them by courier (01:53:48:00)  Other times, such as the incident with the mortars, information went out as a spot report about what had happened (01:54:30:00) o Kloet also gave briefings to visiting personnel, including current Senator John McCain’s father, an admiral (01:54:58:00)  When Admiral McCain visited, the soldiers rehearsed their presentations, including overlays and markers for enemy and friendly positions (01:55:20:00)  The soldiers had a defined timeframe for the briefing before the Admiral had to leave so Kloet began the briefing but during the briefing, the Admiral came onto the platform (01:56:29:00) �  However, Kloet was given fifteen minutes maximum for his briefing and as he got to the end of it, the Admiral came up and began asking for explanations, so Kloet was not explaining his briefing but also explaining what had happened within the last month (01:58:29:00) Kloet began talking about past operations and activities, which lasted for about half an hour (01:58:57:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KloetR1071V1 Title A name given to the resource Kloet, Ronald (Interview outline and video, 1 of 3), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kloet, Ronald Description An account of the resource Ron Kloet was born on August 8th, 1936 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. After graduating from high school and briefly attending Davenport University, Kloet enlisted in the Air Force in 1955. After completing his basic training at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, Kloet transferred to nearby Kelly Air Force Base for "radio intercept traffic analyst" training. Once he completed the training at Kelly, Kloet deployed to Shiroi Air Force Base in Japan. Because advancement in his branch was difficult, once his two-year deployment was complete, Kloet chose to get out of the Air Force and enrolled at Michigan State University to study for a Russian degree. After completing his Bachelor's Degree, Kloet briefly thought about continuing for a Master's Degree but instead decided to take a job working for the CIA. However, the job was not what Kloet had expected, so he eventually re-enlisted in the Army and after leaving the CIA and receiving additional training at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, Kloet deployed to Germany. Kloet moved around several units in Germany, eventually ending up as the de facto leader of a detachment in a town outside of Frankfurt. However, that was not the work Kloet expected to do, so he put in a transfer request to Vietnam and after training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, deployed to Vietnam. Once in Vietnam, Kloet stayed in Saigon working as part of the intelligence services, creating reports about enemy infiltration rates and troop strengths. After his tour, Kloet returned to Fort Bragg in March 1968, missing the Tet Offensive before deploying for a second tour as an intelligence advisor at a province capital. (see parts 2 and 3 for rest of career) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-02-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2011e4452200dc8c97cc962ee042e48d.mp4 1a5d98eb5acf3ff0b2f4457a68337aef https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/55d2598b8261bfbb7043af898c54e4fe.pdf 5d5eddaf65932f7d87db791e1ebe6946 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Ron Kloet part 2 Vietnam War Interview Length: (02:37:28:00) Recap / Third Vietnam Tour (00:00:57:00)  During his first tour in Vietnam, Kloet worked in the combined intelligence center in Saigon, which included both Vietnam and American personnel and personnel from all the service branches and had the assignment of creating “orders of battle” about the different enemy forces (00:00:57:00) o During his second tour in Vietnam, Kloet again worked with the Vietnamese in the Central Highlands region as an S-2 advisor to a Vietnamese captain who collected intelligence regarding enemy activity in the local province (00:01:19:00) o After returning from his first tour in March 1968, Kloet had a gap until his next assignment in June 1968 because he was in school (00:01:59:00) o When his second tour ended in June 1969, Kloet received a thirty-day leave in order to go home because he had re-upped for another tour (00:02:20:00)  After the thirty-day leave, Kloet returned to Vietnam in July and served from July 1969 until July 1970 (00:02:34:00) o During the third tour, Kloet served with the 1st Air Cavalry Division, which was where he specifically wanted to go when he re-upped (00:02:47:00) o Whereas the second tour had been peaks and valleys of action and in-action, the third tour was constant peaks, which meant Kloet was always busy (00:02:57:00)  When he arrived at the 1st Air Cav., Kloet received orders to replace a captain and two lieutenants as a battle section chief, all of whom left the following day; however, Kloet had done the work before, so he did not necessarily need help except for a short briefing on how the three officers had been running the operation previously (00:03:11:00) o Kloet meet with the assistant to the unit’s G-2, a major, and the major said that the G-2, a colonel, wanted Kloet to clean the section up regarding twenty-four, seven operation with a systematic organization (00:03:35:00) o Kloet had to come up with a proposal of how many people it would take to run two twelve-hour shifts with officer supervision and an NCOIC (NonCommissioned Officer In Charge) for all the enlisted personnel (00:04:04:00)  The design of the section was to cover all possibilities relating to enemy activity in the 1st Air Cav.’s area, from local enemy activity such as the Viet Cong, up to entire NVA divisions and echelons above divisions, as well as enemy infiltration (00:04:47:00)  At the time, the 1st Air Cav. was stationed in the “3rd Military Region” (the III Corps), which included Saigon; the actual base camp for the division was Phuoc Vinh in the Phuoc Long province, which was north of the Binh Xuyen River, north and west of Saigon (00:05:11:00) o The terrain in the region was flat and consisting of rice paddies and jungle, although to the south was some jungle, which had the designation of “war zone �   D” and extended south into the next province; to the north, there were the rice paddies that locals farmed as well as more jungle (00:05:46:00)  The locals used water buffalo for farming and one night, the buffalo herd went down a trail another unit was monitoring with electronic surveillance; to the soldiers monitoring the trail, the herd looked like enemy soldiers, so they had the artillery fire their 8 in. guns (00:06:48:00)  The next morning, the locals were angry because the artillery had destroyed twenty-eight of their water buffalo (00:07:49:00)  Part of the area where the division had it’s base camp was a rubber plantation and the buildings that the Military Intelligence (MI) company, amongst others, occupied were on the plantation (00:08:15:00) Under the concept of a military intelligence company, the unit was only supposed to be a detachment assigned to the G-2 but over time, the unit expanded to a company-sized unit configured to support the G-2 section of the division (00:08:58:00) o The G-2 was the chief intelligence officer within the division and was normally a lieutenant colonel who could also have an assistant (00:09:14:00) When Kloet arrived at the division, he “jumped into the frying pan” (00:09:44:00) o In early August 1969, the enemy conducted a major offensive in Military Region 3; at the time, Kloet’s division had the responsibility of the province from the Cambodian border to the II Corps’ boundary (00:09:50:00)  The offensive started in the Binh Long province by the 9th Viet Cong Division while other units attacked both the division base camp and a brigade base camp further to the north (00:10:29:00)  Eventually, an entire task force, code-named SHOEMAKER, was sent north in order to coordinate the activities of both the Cav. and an armored unit that was also in the area (00:11:01:00)  They took someone from Kloet’s unit to be in the task force and Kloet was thankful that he was not chosen because he wanted to “get his feet under him” before going on a mission (00:11:18:00)  The task force and soldiers went through some extremely tough fighting, with the enemy almost overrunning the base camp (00:11:39:00) o After the offensive in the north subsided, another enemy infiltration came north from War Zone D Phuoc Long province orchestrated by the 5th Viet Cong division (00:11:45:00) o Enemy activity continued through October, November and December because the division covered such a large geographic area in III Corps (00:12:12:00) When he had served as a de facto S-2 during his second tour in II Corps, Kloet talked with one company commander and his deputy and both said that they normally had around seventy-six soldiers fit for duty at any one time whereas the company had an authorized strength of around one-hundred-and-forty soldiers (00:12:34:00) o At one point, Kloet met with General Hal Moore, famous from the Battle of Ia Drang Valley and the subsequent book We Were Soldiers, and according to General Moore, when the division deployed to Vietnam, it consisted of roughly seventy percent of the soldiers who had started in training (00:13:49:00)  That amount stayed consistent until individual replacement soldiers began being feed into openings (00:14:19:00) �  With R&R’s, wounded soldiers, and other situations where a soldier was gone but still “on the books”, it was difficult to get any continuity in estimates regarding troop strength in the division (00:14:26:00) o Overall, the entire division was spread too thin, which was exhausting for the soldiers; however, the one advantage companies in the division had over regular line companies was access to a large number of helicopters (00:14:42:00)  In theory, the division could air assault an entire brigade at one time if necessary to any target area; on the other hand, line companies had to take trucks and could only travel in smaller elements (00:15:05:00)  With their air mobility, the division was able to cover a larger amount of territory which upset the abilities of the enemy; because the division could get troops to a given location rather quickly, the enemy could not plan large, intricate operations (00:15:29:00) Once he had successfully re-organized the section, Kloet began performing a day-to-day process (00:16:07:00) o At the time, Kloet’s unit had an agreement with a documentation center in Saigon so that all the paperwork Kloet’s unit obtained on one day would be taken to Saigon by liaison and returned the following day with cursory translations as to what each document contained, although if the center believed a document to be of extreme importance, they translated the entire document (00:16:16:00) o The problem for Kloet was he was dealing with an entirely new staff of soldiers who, although they were good soldiers, did not fully understand what needed to be done; therefore, Kloet himself screened the entire stack of translated documents, deciding which were important and which were not (00:16:55:00) o Initially, Kloet had two lieutenants working for him, one to command the day shift and the other to command the night shift; however, one of the lieutenants had gone through Airborne and Ranger training, considered the assignment beneath him, and decided to transfer (00:17:34:00)  When the one lieutenant transferred out, Kloet decided that he would maintain the day shift and the remaining lieutenant would command the night shift (00:18:14:00)  The arrangement did not work from the beginning because the other lieutenant, although a good soldier, did not know what exactly he was supposed to do (00:18:30:00)  Although Kloet was supposed to mentor the lieutenant in the job, it was still a war zone (00:18:51:00)  Nevertheless, Kloet believed the lieutenant could handle to job because Kloet thought back to his own experiences as a 2nd lieutenant when he just dove into his assignment because he realized that he would be held responsible for the work; however, the lieutenant never picked up on that (00:19:32:00) o Every study that went out from the section needed Kloet’s approval, which was a major job at first because in addition to teaching the new soldiers how to do their jobs, Kloet needed to proofread all their work to make sure it met the criteria for the G-2 (00:19:51:00) �  The G-2 would send out specific requirements for information, which Kloet relayed to the NCOIC, a sergeant, who told the other soldiers the requirements (00:20:22:00)  The sergeant was a benefit to Kloet because he too had worked in military intelligence before and would pick up on what needed to be done (00:20:36:00) o Every night by midnight, there was supposed to a report sent out electronically that reported on all activities that had occurred in the division’s area for the day, intelligence included, and Kloet’s unit had the assignment of putting notes on the intelligence information (00:21:06:00)  Part of the lieutenant’s job was synthesizing all the information; however, the lieutenant would take the information up and the G-2 staff would immediately call Kloet (00:21:41:00) o Kloet would go in the morning, usually around six in the morning, and would not get to bed until around ten-thirty or eleven o’clock at night, which did not include waking up from incoming enemy fire (00:21:56:00) o The lieutenant did not know how to properly synthesize the information and although he had gone through his officers basic course, it seemed to Kloet that the lieutenant had not learned anything (00:22:20:00) o Eventually, it reached the point that Kloet was staying up until the report was sent to press (00:23:04:00) o Kloet does not believe he could have handled all the work he had to do without help from the NCOIC sergeant, who took care of the enlisted men (00:23:24:00)  One time, there was a soldier who complained about not liking his job and would “disappear” from time to time; eventually, the others found him in the men’s room reading comic books and the sergeant ended up having a long discussion with the soldier (00:23:45:00) The soldiers had bunkers built behind their “hooch” and Kloet’s personal sleeping area consisted of a cot next to the back door covered by mosquito netting, a small foot locker, and a fan he bought at the PX (00:24:42:00) o Kloet believes he got the fan illegally because he did not have permission from the officer in-charge of electricity; the entire base ran off a power grid supplied by generators, so there was limited electronic power available and soldiers needed permission to have a fan (00:25:18:00)  One time, Kloet and a friend went into the PX to get the fan and because Kloet talked so quickly, the E-4 working in the PX did not know what to do, so he forgot to ask whether Kloet had permission (00:25:43:00) o The fan sat on Kloet’s foot locker and was a blessing because the temperature was hot (00:26:16:00) o There was a road behind the hooch with a huge bunker next to it; each hooch had an individual bunker assigned to it (00:26:26:00)  Kloet never once went into the bunker assigned to his hooch, even when the base came under mortar and rocket attacks (00:26:49:00)  First, Kloet had already been in Vietnam for three years and the attacks no longer seemed to phase him and he came to the � conclusion that if he heard a round and it landed, then he was still alive (00:27:11:00)  Secondly, there were snakes that loved the bunkers because the bunkers were dry (00:27:38:00) In February 1970, Kloet was involved in a “fragging” incident because for a period in December and January, the unit did not have a commander; the commander had gone home on an emergency leave because his sole surviving parent, his mother, had had a physical problem (00:28:28:00) o In companies that worked in a base camp and not in the fields as actually companies but as attachments to various sections, they could get along without having a commander (00:29:28:00)  In normal, peace-time situations, someone would temporarily sit-in for the departed commander (00:30:16:00) o However, because there was no commander, chaos very slowly began creeping into the entire unit (00:30:36:00) o At the end of January and beginning of February, the unit went through an IG inspection; however, the inspection was not like those in the United States, where everything needed to be polished and put in the right place (00:30:46:00)  This inspection was only intended to check how everything was going in the unit (00:31:09:00)  However, everything in the unit was not going well; the sandbags surrounding the bunkers were deteriorating and other things were just falling apart, something the inspectors did not like (00:31:14:00)  Once they completed their inspection, the inspectors would inform the G-2 that the area was either good or needed improvement; if the later occurred, the G-2 needed someone to take care of the problem, so the G-2 appointed a major to become the interim company commander (00:31:48:00)  However, the major did not like receiving the assignment as the company commander because he had dreams of glory and bigger and better things (00:32:17:00)  Instead of actually working at the company’s position, the major spent his time at the G-2, which meant he was not able to supervise what was happening in the company (00:32:36:00)  Instead, the major delegated tasks to the company first sergeant, who delegated the tasks to another sergeant, with orders that as men came off a shift, they were supposed to take care of the problems (00:33:11:00) o The new orders did not go over well and as a result, the soldiers would talk to Kloet; the soldiers picked up on the arrogance of the major and Kloet learned that they were blaming him for all the problems and the extra work (00:33:30:00) o Kloet had a choice: either talk to the major or not; however, the major was not apt to listen to Kloet, so Kloet went to his actual commanding officer, another major, and explained the problems with the major (00:34:13:00)  Kloet’s commanding officer told Kloet to keep track of the situation and in late February was when soldiers began throwing rocks onto the top of Kloet’s hooch because the rocks sounded like grenades (00:34:49:00) �o One night, Kloet got off work at 10:30, which was relatively early, and went to the showers before going back to his hooch and going to bed; whenever he went to bed, it took little time for Kloet to fall asleep because he knew that he was getting up the next day (00:35:07:00)  All the soldiers had developed a habit of listening with one ear while they slept and as he slept, Kloet heard the “clink, clink” on the roof, which had been going on for a while; however, the next thing Kloet knew, there was a large explosion (00:36:03:00)  The first thing Kloet did was look over and saw that his fan had been knocked to the ground and was off (00:36:35:00)  Within the hooch, Kloet’s bunk and foot looker were directly against one of the walls and near one of the doors; the rest of the hooch consisted of major’s area, which was in the center and covered with sandbags, a small common area, and the area for the interrogation section (00:36:51:00)  Following the explosion, Kloet was looking through the dust and could see pieces of wood lying about; eventually, he managed to get untangled from the mosquito net, which had collapsed on the bed (00:37:43:00)  As he got out of the bed, Kloet accidentally stepped on a board with a nail in it, which went into Kloet’s foot; after pulling the board out, Kloet saw the captain in charge of the interrogation section (00:38:07:00)  When he first heard the clicking, the captain had stepped out off his office and during the explosion, a piece of wood with three nails in it flew past the captain, scratching his face, before imbedding itself in a piece of plywood (00:38:19:00)  Eventually, the military police came around to investigate what had happened; when Kloet explained it had been grenades, the MPs said that grenades did not have fingerprints and the MPs ended up not asking many pertinent questions (00:38:52:00)  Luckily, no one was seriously wounded in the explosion; the major was in his own little bunker, while the one captain was scratched by the nails, which caused him to have a mental breakdown (00:39:38:00) o The major reacted to the “fragging” attempt by placing guards around the hooch, including one on the bunker behind the hooch and roaming patrols throughout the company area (00:39:55:00)  However, apart from their regular shifts, the soldiers were now also expected to go on guard duty, which also did not go over very well with the soldiers (00:40:35:00) o Kloet eventually found out that the soldier who committed the “fragging” was in Kloet’s unit because some of the other soldiers told him (00:40:48:00)  The soldier was a transfer from the aviation battalion, which set off a red flag in Kloet’s mind because the Army did not transfer a soldier in-country unless there was a problem in the soldier’s previous unit (00:41:14:00)  Kloet learned that prior to the “fragging” incident, the transferred soldier had pulled his pistol on another of Kloet’s soldiers; however, other soldiers suspected he might do this, so they took the magazine out of the pistol (00:42:31:00) � Eventually, the soldier ended up leaving the unit as part of the normal rotation of soldiers (00:43:47:00) Cambodia / Information Gathering (00:44:10:00)  For the most part, the intensity of the action stayed the same during the tour, with the only lull coming around December; however, following the new year, the unit began studies into new areas as other units began moving into those areas (00:44:10:00) o One soldier had made a study about a specific region and had given the study to Kloet so that Kloet could brief the commanding officers; however, Kloet had taken the position with the requirement that the soldiers who developed the studies would be part of the briefings (00:44:38:00) o Following the new year, the unit moved into Tay Ninh to set up interdiction operations to stop enemy movements from Cambodia into southern Vietnam, specifically into Region 4 (00:45:22:00) o During this time was when American soldiers were performing operations inside of Cambodia (00:45:48:00)  While the units were preparing for the operations in Cambodia, Kloet and another soldier visited fire bases around Tay Ninh as well as a special forces base near the border (00:46:02:00)  While at the special forces base, the other soldier accidentally walked into an active minefield (00:46:28:00) o Kloet himself went into Cambodia at the beginning of June (00:47:24:00)  One morning, Kloet was woken up and was told that the G-2 wanted to go to Cambodia because there had been a sapper attack on a camp that was on the border (00:47:42:00)  As Kloet and another soldier boarded a helicopter, it was foggy outside and as the helicopter climbed into the foothills of the mountains, the fog became heavier (00:48:09:00)  Eventually, the helicopter arrived at the base and the soldiers onboard got off on went through the gate into the base, where the G-2 met the commanding officer, a colonel (00:48:41:00)  While the G-2 talked with the colonel, who was his friend, he told Kloet to count the number of wounded and try to get an intelligence (00:49:15:00)  Kloet and the other soldier walked along the perimeter where the sapper attack occurred and based on the bodies, Kloet did not believe that any sappers actually made it into the base; instead, he and the other soldier counted twenty-eight bodies (00:49:27:00)  The soldiers had set out claymores around the camp with fougasses in front of the claymores; the fougases were filled with soap so that as both the fougases and claymores exploded, the burning soap particles would stick to the ball-bearings from the claymores causing the ball-bearings to burn (00:49:51:00)  In one area, an NVA soldier had been carrying a pack with RPG rounds when he was hit with the burning ball-bearings, and the lower part of his torso was in one area while the other part was several feet away (00:50:35:00) �  As Kloet and the other soldier gathered information, the found out that the majority of the NVA attackers were armed with AK-47 rifles and RPGs (Rocket Propelled Grenades) (00:51:01:00)  At the entrance to the base was a .50 caliber machine gun and the soldier manning it happened to kill an enemy officer; the officer had been carrying a Luger-type pistol, which Kloet tried to con the soldier out of (00:51:19:00)  As the helicopter had flown up to the camp, the soldiers saw where B-52 bombers had flown and decimated the area; Kloet figures the bombing attacks must have been recent because no moisture had gathered in the craters (00:52:10:00)  There had only been one injury to an American soldier from the sapper attack on the base that Kloet and the G-2 visited (00:52:31:00)  A lieutenant who had been a helicopter pilot who had been shot down ten times, which meant he was grounded, had been assigned as the air liaison officer for the brigade (00:52:37:00)  During the attack, a claymore exploded near the lieutenant and some fragmentation went into the lieutenant’s head; because of the severity of the wounds, the lieutenants was medi-vaced out (00:54:00:00) During his first tour, Kloet found very few enemy documents that needed translation but as various units had more successful contact with enemy forces, more and more documents came in (00:55:01:00) o The Air Cav. in particular, especially in Cambodia, recovered so many documents that Kloet did not have enough soldiers to go through them (00:55:18:00) o By the time it was 1970, Kloet was receiving stacks of translations and summaries of enemy documents (00:55:25:00)  One of the more valuable soldiers in any unit was the personnel officer who kept a record of all the soldiers in the unit and on some occasions, the Americans would kill an NVA personnel officer who had his information in a book in his pack (00:55:39:00)  Information in the book was valuable to Kloet and his men because it told what NVA unit and what the soldiers did (00:56:07:00)  On the other hand, the soldiers would get maps off dead NVA officers that told what other NVA units were going to do (00:56:15:00)  If the Americans attacked an NVA base camp, the enemy often fled before they were unable to get rid of all their information, which the Americans were then able to capture (00:56:19:00) o The majority of the information that Kloet and his soldiers examined came from the NVA because the Viet Cong were part of the community (00:56:40:00)  By 1970, Kloet and the other soldiers believed that all the enemy divisions were NVA, although some still carried the moniker of being Viet Cong (00:57:10:00) o Captured documents gave the analysts and idea of what enemy units were where, what the units’ strengths were, who the commanders were, etc. (00:57:26:00) �o As time when on and more documents were discovered, the soldiers made several discoveries about the enemy (00:57:43:00)  First, the soldiers found out that the enemy was working more and more in what Kloet labeled as “task forces”, where companies from different units would join together so that if the individual companies were destroyed, an entire unit was not destroyed as well (00:57:52:00)  Second, the soldiers discovered that the enemy was cutting back on the automatic weapons issued to their soldiers and had returned to issuing semi-automatic weapons (00:58:40:00)  The AK-47 was fully automatic and soldiers tended to fire their entire allotment of ammunition quickly; however, the enemy was having ammunition supply problems because the Americans were successfully performing interdiction operations (00:58:55:00) o When they went into Cambodia, the soldiers found positions where the enemy had back-loaded thousands of rifles, machine-guns, and ammunition (00:59:40:00) o Through the intelligence, the Americans learned the combat effectiveness of the NVA forces and became less afraid of them (01:00:06:00) o The best pieces of intelligence, apart from ordinary body counts and captured documents, were prisoners who could often give information (01:00:21:00)  On some occasions, an enemy soldier decided that he had had enough of being shot at and decided to surrender (01:00:43:00)  Once, an enemy reconnaissance lieutenant surrendered and told the Americans exactly where the enemy units were, which units were going to move where, and which units were going to attack which American positions (01:01:07:00) o After a while, Kloet and his soldiers had built an impressive database that was filled with good information (01:01:20:00) o In regards to prisoners, the MPs controlled the POW camps and the interrogation section had a responsibility to finish gathering any information from the prisoners quickly, before the prisoners were shipped back (01:01:37:00)  Any priority prisoners needed to identified quickly, although that was not always the case (01:01:57:00)  The division base camp was labeled as the AOT and it’s defense fell under the command of the division artillery commander, with different battalions rotating every six months as the guard units (01:02:11:00) o Once, a battalion on AOT defense captured a prisoner and without telling anyone, used the prisoner as a point man on further operations (01:02:43:00)  Normally, if an enemy soldier declared himself as a refugee, then he was not supposed to be used in any further combat operations (01:03:02:00)  Another time, soldiers captured an Vietnamese who was listening to helicopter communications (01:03:28:00) �   o Because the soldier was signals intelligence, the interrogation section of Kloet’s company began working on him; however, once word got out that the Americans had captured a signals intelligence soldier, higher-ranking government agencies wanted interrogate him and they just sent people to take him (01:04:06:00) o Normally, the interrogators were supposed to report that they had captured a signals intelligence soldier immediately but they did not because the soldier was giving them good information (01:04:54:00)  During the Cambodian operations, there were more people available to interrogate and debrief any prisoners; there was a flood of prisoners and most gave good information (01:05:18:00) Within the division headquarters base camp, there were USO girls who ran small clubs for the soldiers; however, the girls did not date the ordinary soldiers (01:06:08:00) o Normally, it was the helicopter pilots who dated the USO girls (01:06:44:00) o Kloet’s unit’s first sergeant lived with a Vietnamese woman on the base camp, but that was a highly unusually situation because civilians were normally not supposed to be in a tactical zone on a base camp (01:07:07:00) There were not Vietnamese working on the base camp during the day (01:07:24:00) To Kloet, morale was a relative term in the sense that each unit determined their own morale and there was not an over-arching moral that applied to all the soldiers and all the units (01:07:38:00) o Most of the time, the overall moral in Kloet’s unit was good, except the time with the interim commanding officer (01:07:51:00)  Kloet had four or five soldiers extend their tours once their first tour ended because they did not want to go back to the United States (01:08:03:00) o However, in the units rotating in for the base camp guard duty, there was less positive moral because the soldiers were taken out of combat and given what amounted to house-keeping duties (01:08:16:00)  At the time, Kloet was a junior officer, which meant he ate in the junior officers' mess hall; one of the other officers was a lieutenant with the headquarters company, which was in charge of the guard forces (01:08:52:00)  However, the dislike was so bad that the officers did not sleep with the company so that the guard soldiers could not find them (01:09:13:00)  The one lieutenant in particular was glad to leave the base camp, even if it meant going to an ammunition supply point along the Cambodian border (01:09:22:00)  Soldiers coming out of combat were often squirrelly (01:10:13:00)  It was difficult to diagnose stress problems unless someone had already been stressed (01:10:36:00)  Kloet does not know how much of an issue drugs were on the base camp, although he does know it was a little more difficult to get drugs on the camp (01:11:27:00) �  o The soldiers were not allowed to go into the village but helicopters pilots were able to fly around, giving them the ability to get drugs and bring them back (01:11:32:00) o When Kloet was working in II Corps, he saw more open drug usage (01:11:42:00) o Overall, Kloet did not see much in the way of racial tension amongst the soldiers, although during his final tour in Germany, Kloet definitely saw more racial tension (01:11:52:00) Apart from doing his regular work within his section, Kloet also had to do administrative duties as soldiers began rotating in and out of the unit (01:12:48:00) o One soldier did not look the job that Kloet had assigned him to, so the soldier volunteered for Ranger school; however, to get into the school, any prospective soldiers had to go through a one-week course (01:13:01:00)  Kloet knew the Ranger commander because Ranger units in the field received orders to collect any intelligence (01:14:07:00)  Kloet could not stop the soldier from going to the school and when the soldier went, but before he went, Kloet talked with the Ranger commander and told the commander to put the soldier through the same routine that any other soldier went through (01:14:28:00)  Two days later, the soldier is back and says that he wants to be a helicopter door-gunner, so he submitted the paperwork again and receives the re-assignment; however, within a month, the soldier was killed (01:15:41:00) During his first tour, Kloet went to Japan for R&R and during his second tour, he went to Australia; however, during the third tour, Kloet received two R&Rs because the Air Cav. gave R&Rs based in six-month intervals (01:16:17:00) o During one of the R&Rs, Kloet went to Taipei and during the other, he went to Hong Kong (01:16:40:00) o When he got off the plane in Taipei, local pimps were practically on the bus with Kloet; when he got to a hotel run by the R&R centers, the pimps were able to go right into the hotel (01:17:15:00)  There was a lot of culture shock for Kloet in Taipei, including the different foods he could eat (01:17:50:00)  Kloet and some other soldiers went to the Presidential Palace and upset the palace guards by taking pictures (01:18:11:00) o In Hong Kong, Kloet stayed in a large hotel and shared a room with a Marine officer (01:18:30:00)  Going on tours throughout the city as well as just walking around was all enjoyable for Kloet (01:19:01:00)  The ability to get clean water and showers was fantastic (01:19:21:00)  By the time he went to Australia during the second tour, Kloet had a permanent black mark on his forearm because the soldiers never received enough hot water to shower and properly clean themselves (01:19:27:00) �o Kloet had been in Sydney when the Australians were constructing the famous opera house, so Kloet and some others were able to get a tour of the area (01:20:10:00)  The military encouraged soldiers to meet up with an Australian family, so Kloet decided to do so and received the family of barrister, which equated to an American lawyer (01:20:47:00)  Kloet arrived at the family’s home around six o’clock in the evening believing that he and the family were going to eat dinner; however, unbeknownst to him, the family usually did not eat until later and they preferred to drink before dinner (01:21:20:00)  When Kloet arrived, the family patriarch brought him a large, dark beer, which Kloet drank, but by the time dinner came at eight o’clock, he was tipsy (01:21:30:00) o When Kloet twice went to Bangkok for R&R, he found the city to be very crowded (01:22:11:00)  One of the most interesting incidents in Bangkok was when Kloet was walking through a reptile house at a local zoo (01:22:56:00)  As Kloet was walking, a sign said “World’s Largest Sea Crocodile”, so Kloet began walking in that direction (01:23:07:00)  However, as he walked past one of the other boxes, a massive King Cobra struck the glass, scaring Kloet (01:23:27:00) o All the R&Rs Kloet went on were educational, especially with the history of the areas and because Kloet was a history buff, he enjoyed that (01:23:49:00) o During his time in Australia, Kloet had a slight physical problem that he had to deal with (01:24:02:00)  During the tour, Kloet had a slight bout of dysentery, a problem compounded by the need for Kloet to take malaria pills; as well, Kloet also had a carbuncle on one of his legs (01:24:18:00)  When Kloet arrived in Australia, one of the first things he wanted as a good meal, so he went to a restaurant (01:25:03:00)  Kloet got through about half the steak he ordered before needed to go to the bathroom (01:25:19:00) Post-Cambodian Operations (01:25:43:00)  Everything was anti-climatic once the soldiers returned from the operations in Cambodia, with the commanders trying to make work for the soldiers (01:25:43:00) o Eventually, the old G-2 left and a new colonel came in to take over the position; however, the colonel had the personality that he was better than the junior officers and they should not talk to him (01:25:51:00) o Kloet had not talked too much with the other G-2s he had served with except to brief them on what his section was doing but the new G-2 (01:26:12:00)  Eventually, Kloet’s company commander came down to warn Kloet about confronting the new G-2; instead, Kloet watched for a month period as the G-2 took the helicopter he shared with the G-3, the colonel in-charge of operations, and left (01:27:07:00) �  One day, the G-3 came into the TAC where Kloet was, asking if anyone knew where the G-2 was because he needed to use the helicopter (01:28:27:00) o One of the soldiers in the room had been screwed over by the G-2 and although he knew where the G-2 was, when asked, the soldier said he did not know (01:28:47:00) o When the G-2 came back with the helicopter, he was barred from ever using it again and instead had to go to the division headquarters and ask permission to take out a helicopter (01:29:14:00)  Because he occasionally briefed the division commander, Kloet could talk with the soldier in-charge of allotments for helicopters and the two became friendly to the point that the soldier would willing grant Kloet use of a helicopter whenever Kloet needed to go out to one of the brigade headquarters (01:30:28:00)  One time, the G-2 went to get a helicopter and managed to get an armed observation helicopter (01:30:57:00) o The G-2 was a short man and as he was climbing into the helicopter, he grabbed the handle of a machine gun but accidentally grabbed the trigger and shot a round through his foot (01:31:39:00) As much as his commanders would allow, Kloet would travel out to the different bases, including once going on a reconnaissance mission (01:32:27:00) o One thing Kloet liked about the Cav. was that none of the soldiers had to pretend that they were perfect; all the soldiers could give their all to their jobs because even though they were going to make mistakes, as long as the soldiers did not make mistakes that got other soldiers killed, it was acceptable (01:32:36:00) o One day, Kloet asked the G-2 how helicopters pilots could see a group of Viet Cong walking down a trail when the pilots were flying past (01:33:05:00)  Kloet did not realize it but the colonel had arranged for Kloet to go on a reconnaissance mission with a “Pink Team”, which was a Little Bird helicopter with Cobra gunships for coverage (01:34:02:00)  Kloet was ordered to pick up a weapon and report to a nearby unit, the 1st of the 9th (01:34:35:00)  During the flight, Kloet was in the left seat of the helicopter with an M-16 but because he is left-handed, firing the rifle out of window was awkward for him (01:34:51:00)  Once they left the 1st of the 9th, the trio of helicopters flew south, with both Cobras above the Little Bird (01:35:18:00)  All of the sudden, the Little Bird began to dive, eventually ending up below the tree line; Kloet then realized how the pilots were able to see enemy soldiers, because the helicopters was flying only ten or so feet off of the ground (01:35:28:00)  As the Little Bird is flying, the helicopter crew chief is sticking explosives into used ordinance and dropping it out the side of the helicopter; �   meanwhile, the pilot is talking with Kloet through headphones, which caused him to loss his concentration (01:36:03:00)  All of the sudden, the pilot swore and an explosion from one of the ordinances pushed the helicopter forward (01:36:50:00) o Apart from the reconnaissance mission, Kloet would also fly to the different bases in the area; as well, he once acted as a liaison with the 1st Infantry Division to coordinate intelligence sharing (01:37:17:00) While working as the liaison officer, Kloet saw that his own intelligence unit was much better than that of the 1st Infantry because his unit was better organized in the sense that the 1st Infantry either placed too much responsibility on the younger, less experienced soldiers or not enough responsibility (01:37:42:00) o Kloet viewed his unit as having a nice mix of senior supervision, including a couple of officers who rotated in and a couple of senior of NCOs (01:38:10:00)  The problem with the original lieutenant Kloet had was the lieutenant did not try and Kloet did not have time to take the lieutenant under his wing and teach him everything that needed to be done (01:39:11:00) o When Kloet first joined the Air Cav., he developed a plan with a small group of other soldiers as to what would be a good mix for the unit before talking with the G-2, who gave his approval to the plan (01:40:01:00) When Kloet first arrived at the Air Cav., the G-2 who was in the unit was a short-timer, so Kloet did not interact with him and the colonel who replaced the outgoing G-2 did not last long because the colonel was not “Cav-standard” (01:40:53:00) o One time, during the daily five o’clock briefing given by the G-2, the colonel had briefing cards with him and as he would reading each card, he would use a pointer in his other hand to point out the location on a board (01:41:17:00)  Kloet was standing near the entrance to the tent and the division’s commander officer was seated in front of the colonel along with his chief of staff and the division G-3 (01:42:04:00)  The board the colonel was using was also used by the G-3, which placed all the units in their areas along with their statuses and what their operations were; however, as the G-2’s pointer moved down the board, it pulled out all the push-pins that the G-3 had used (01:42:34:00)  Kloet looked at the G-3 and saw the G-3 was incensed; although Kloet does not know exactly what happened after that, the G-2 was eventually transferred from the unit (01:43:11:00) After the G-2 departed came another colonel who had served in the cavalry already and was a straightforward soldier who wanted the soldiers to tell it like it was (01:43:42:00) o The general staff would normally eat together, often with better accoutrements than that of the regular soldiers (01:44:16:00) o One day, the G-2 sent someone to get Kloet with orders for an overlay of all the enemy infiltration corridors in the division’s area of operations, which was a major project (01:44:41:00)  The project involved splicing together sheets of acetate in order to cover an entire wall then placing pieces of different colored tape to represent the different infiltration corridors (01:45:19:00) �   Once the soldiers finished, they rolled the entire project up and placed it behind the G-2’s desk in his office (01:45:52:00)  A couple of weeks later, the soldiers came to Kloet saying that they were running out of the acetate, which they used to make overlays on individual units’ areas of operation and everything that was going on within that specific area (01:46:10:00)  The soldiers asked permission to get back the project they had made fro the G-2 because it was a lot of acetate, so Kloet walked to the G-2’s office and asked the colonel if they could get the project because they were running low on acetate (01:46:32:00)  The colonel confessed that he could not remember why the roll of acetate was there (01:46:57:00) In early 1970, the Air Cav. was running interdiction operations in war zone three because the enemy was running from Cambodia, through what was labeled as the “elephant sphere” and into the southern area (01:47:27:00) o The Americans placed bases in order to stop the movement of enemy soldiers and the enemy wanted to destroy those bases (01:48:01:00) o One time, Kloet and some other soldiers were listening on the radio as the division talked with a battalion about enemy activity when the enemy began lobbing 122 mm mortars onto the base; because it was hot, the G-2 had been lying on top of the battalion command bunker when a mortar round landed nearby and took off one of his legs and one of his arms (01:48:05:00)  The enemy charged the base although a lot of them did not have any weapons; the enemy would drug their soldiers in order to get them to attack without weapons (01:48:50:00) o Over time, the fighting intensified and once the Cav. came back from Cambodia, Kloet and his soldiers were asked to make studies using captured enemy weaponry and equipment (01:49:23:00) At some points in the tour, Kloet became very out-of-shape because all he did was sleep, ride in a jeep up to his job, sit in a chair, and walk only short distances (01:50:08:00) Post-third Tour / The Phoenix Program (01:50:48:00)  Kloet ended his third tour in 1970 and headed towards the “career course”, a captain level course to train the captains in how to be a company commander and do more complicated intelligence functions at Fort Holabird in Baltimore, Maryland (01:50:48:00) o Kloet spent time in the career course, which Kloet believed precluded an assignment back to Fort Bragg; however, when Kloet officially received the assignment to Fort Bragg, he scoffed at it and requested assignment back to Vietnam as part of the Phoenix Program (01:51:21:00)  Kloet had previously served at Fort Bragg as a headquarters company commander, which involved, amongst other things, organizing the motor pool and billets for all the soldiers in the headquarters (01:52:22:00) o However, the headquarters company was drained due to the war, so when he came into the unit, Kloet was the senior company grade officer in the entire battalion; the only people higher ranking than Kloet were a major, who was the �o o o o o battalion XO and the battalion commander, while the personnel officer was a lieutenant (01:53:08:00) When he arrived, the first thing Kloet had to do was an inventory for the unit and when he first opened the desk in his office, he found a draw full of half-empty bottles of Maalox (01:54:01:00) After he arrived, Kloet received his orders from the battalion commander and although there were orders of what Kloet needed to do, there was no mention of where he could get soldiers to do it; however, the commander told Kloet to just use everyone in the headquarters (01:54:36:00) Once inventory was finished, Kloet asked if he and the company first sergeant were responsible for making sure every soldier kept his sleeping area in order; instead, Kloet suggested using a group of NCOs to monitor the soldiers’ living quarters (01:55:16:00)  Although the battalion commander accepted the idea, the NCOs who received the assignment grumbled and disagreed with it; the NCOs had often already served in Vietnam and were nearing the ends of their enlistments (01:56:18:00) After the living quarters were organized, Kloet needed to organize the motor pool, so he suggested developing a list of all non-critical personnel (E-5 and below) and they would work in the motor pool doing vehicle inspections (01:57:28:00)  Eventually, one of the sergeants came up and told Kloet that the soldiers in the motor pool were working for the maintenance officer, so Kloet sent another sergeant to supervise the activity in the motor pool (01:57:56:00)  However, the maintenance officer complained to the battalion S-4, who in turn, went to a higher ranking officer instead of Kloet (01:58:48:00) Kloet went into the hospital the day after Christmas, 1968 with what the doctors believed to be dengue fever, although there were no reported cases of dingy fever in the entire country (01:59:56:00)  Kloet went into the hospital for two weeks and when he returned to his unit, the battalion commander had left and his supply sergeant had rotated to Germany; however, Kloet had to do another inventory for the unit, so he received another sergeant to be the supply sergeant (02:00:14:00)  The sergeant started to do the inventory but returned to Kloet and explained that items were missing (02:00:58:00)  When Kloet asked how long it would take to fix everything, the sergeant said he could take care of it because he had “connections” with other soldiers (02:01:11:00)  The battalion commander warned Kloet against using soldiers from other units to take care of the problems but the new supply sergeant had friends in a basic training unit and was able to get soldiers to help with the inventory (02:01:40:00)  Part of the reason soldiers wanted to work for Kloet was because they received a meal from Kloet’s mess hall, which was very well organized: Kloet had been a mess officer in Germany and he knew how to make sure a mess hall ran properly (02:02:15:00) �    The supply sergeant squared everything away for the inventory and the unit ended up with only six items missing, all OD watches, and the reason they were missing was the previous supply sergeant had used them as trade items (02:02:45:00)  While the inventory was going on, Kloet filed paperwork for reassignment to Vietnam and although the battalion commander could not stop him from going, he delayed Kloet by saying Kloet needed to do an investigation into the missing watches (02:03:38:00)  After the investigation was complete, it went up the chain of command and over to Germany, where the old supply sergeant had to pay for all six watches (02:03:59:00) Kloet first went to Fort Bragg in 1966 and joined a unit preparing to deploy to Vietnam, although few of the officers or enlisted men knew exactly what they were going to be getting into (02:04:18:00) o Then, when he came back from his tour, Kloet went back to Fort Bragg before going back to Vietnam for his second tour (02:04:54:00) o Before Kloet rotated from Vietnam for his second tour, he received an assignment back to Fort Bragg (02:06:03:00) Between August 1970 and September 1971, Kloet attended two different schools, the career course and a MASA (Military Assistance Security Advisory) course (02:06:00:00) o The career course consisted of teaching intelligence officers how to be captains while maintain their intelligence skill and the MASA course trained Kloet to take part in the Phoenix program (02:06:43:00)  During the MASA course, courses included Vietnamese language classes, how to organize reports, etc. (02:07:01:00) The Phoenix program was a program designed to neutralize the communist infrastructure within Vietnam and consisted of both district- and province-sized committees made up of police and American advisors, although originally, the advisors were CIA operatives and Special Forces officers (02:07:28:00) o The committee’s jobs were to coordinate with any other organization in that area, such as the census or grievance bureaus, that might have information on Viet Cong routes, villages, or communist individuals, with the intention of neutralizing these threats (02:08:20:00) o In Kloet’s case, he was at the district level and had the assignment of gathering all the gathered intelligence and placing it into a single report, named the “Big Mac”, which listed all the communist villages and what was the status of the Viet Cong infrastructure (02:08:48:00)  Kloet also scheduled operations to maintain what was known as “the black book”, which were files and dossiers kept on a suspected person (02:09:22:00)  Once the committees had enough vetted, reliable information within one dossier, the person went onto the black list and if more reliable information came in, then the soldiers could conduct an operation to neutralize the person (02:09:53:00)  Ideally, the soldiers would neutralize a threat by arresting the suspected person (02:10:38:00) �  In Kloet’s committee, his Vietnamese counterpart was part of the Vietnamese special police (akin to the American FBI) and he warned Kloet when he first arrived that Kloet would not be able to get any operations within the sector (02:10:48:00)  The provincial leader was a military commander and there were leaks within the commander’s staff; if any operation was launched, then Kloet would not find anything (02:11:53:00)  During the training, Kloet and the others were warned that this might happen (02:12:14:00)  In order to effectively perform operations, the soldiers needed the assistance of the Vietnamese government, which was the military, and in Kloet’s case, his province was on the VietnameseCambodian border (02:12:19:00) o The consensus amongst the Americans within the province was that the provincial leader was play both sides against one another (02:12:43:00)  Kloet recognized this when his first interpreters was the son-in-law of the provincial leader and turned out to be a snitch, telling the leader everything Kloet and the others worked on (02:13:04:00)  Kloet removed the interpreter and this caused a rift with the provincial leader (02:13:46:00) o Over time, Kloet and the others were getting more neutralizations by way of killing the suspect as opposed to arresting them (02:14:00:00) o The soldiers were conducting operations within the villages and at night, there were explosions where the soldiers had set up ambushes for the enemy; after the ambushes, the soldiers would find intelligence on the enemy that Kloet and the others used (02:14:34:00) o One time, Kloet went to a district near where he had served with the 1st Air Cav. because soldiers had killed five suspected enemy personnel (02:15:04:00)  Originally, pictures were taken of dead Viet Cong or communists as verification; however, headquarters found out that in some cases, the “enemy” were paid to act dead, so Kloet was told he needed to verify any suspected enemy KIA (02:15:39:00)  When he traveled to the district, Kloet could not arrive early in the morning because the district was covered in fog, so that when he did arrive, the bodies had been laying out in the sun (02:16:40:00) o The Vietnamese were the ones conducting operations and ambushes against the enemy, not Americans (02:17:56:00) Kloet only spent about six months working in the Phoenix Program because when the Easter offensive began in Spring 1972, all hell broke loose (02:18:50:00) o Most of the fighting during the offensive took place in a province next to where Kloet was stationed but the enemy still managed to cut the roads leading out of Kloet’s province, which meant no supplies could come in (02:19:03:00) �o As well, the S-2 in Kloet’s unit had left and Kloet had to also fill that role (02:19:13:00) o Prior the offensive, Kloet’s unit received regular intelligence unrelated to the Phoenix program that said enemy tanks were to the north, just across the Cambodian border (02:19:33:00)  A lieutenant who was part of the Phoenix program was in the area and Kloet told the lieutenant that he needed to verify the intelligence; the lieutenant tried to find intelligence on the tanks and found nothing but the following day, the enemy offensive began, with tanks rolling into the neighboring province (02:19:48:00)  The enemy used a nearby bridge over the Song Be river to run tanks, so Kloet’s unit organized an air strike to destroy the bridge (02:20:22:00) o Once the offensive began, Kloet’s attention shifted to more military-centered work and keeping an eye on what was happening in the neighboring province; the work continued through April, May, and June and in July, the enemy pulled back due to the large amount of damage they had taken (02:21:01:00)  However, as the enemy pulled back, they sent a unit to attack a district in Kloet’s province and managed to cut the road; some of the Vietnamese asked permission to retreat to Saigon but a CIA officer in Bien Hoa told Kloet not to allow it (02:21:54:00)  Kloet’s interpreter told Kloet that the Vietnamese were planning to kill Kloet if he did not let them leave; Kloet reported this to his superior and his superior went to the Vietnamese leaders, saying that if they heard another word, the Vietnamese were going into the jail (02:22:52:00)  During the first part of the attack, the enemy bombarded Kloet’s area with 152 mm artillery and RPGs, so Kloet had to go out with a jeep and do crater analysis, both to determine what exactly the enemy were shelling them with and where the shellings were coming from (02:23:33:00)  Once Kloet plotted the artillery’s location, he told the provincial chief, who said he would send some soldiers out; the Vietnamese soldiers did go out and found the artillery were Kloet said it would be but there was roughly a battalion-sized force of enemy soldiers guarding it (02:24:47:00) o During offensive, a friend of Kloet had been stationed in the province where the bulk of the fighting occurred (02:25:34:00) o By July 1st, 1972, there was talk of reducing the size of Kloet’s unit, so the unit was moved out of the bunkers that the Army had built a couple of years earlier and into a couple of civilian trailers (02:26:22:00)  Kloet shared a trailer with a retired New York City cop and on the night of July 1st, when the enemy fired RPGs into the unit’s compound, the cop went crazy, grabbing a M-3 “grease gun” (02:26:51:00)  Kloet managed to get the cop into a nearby bunker and because he had been in Vietnam for four years, Kloet knew what to do, so he took his time and did everything right (02:27:43:00) �  In the morning, Kloet went out to do his crater analysis, which involved measure which directions each round came from; where all the lines intersected was where the enemy artillery was located (02:28:13:00)  Eventually, the Army managed to clear the road out of the district and the unit left via an armed convoy (02:28:49:00) o When the offensive began, the Vietnamese soldiers in the province left their equipment behind as well as some Montagnard tribesmen who were fighting with them (02:29:19:00)  Eventually, Kloet went with a CIA-owned Air America helicopter and watched as a C-130 Spectre gunship destroyed the left-behind artillery and ammunition dumps (02:29:34:00)  The Montagnards eventually made it through the jungle and were sent into an old Air Cav. base (02:29:55:00) o During the operation to clear the road, there were endless craters on both sides of the road from Air Force bombings, with very few buildings left standing, except for a pagoda that the Vietnamese then considered haunted (02:30:08:00)  The Air Force was still dropping bombs as the soldiers advanced down the road, so the soldiers would occasionally stand underneath the awnings of any remaining buildings (02:31:24:00) o From their compound, Kloet and the other soldiers could see Nui Ba Ra¸ which was a large nearby mountain with Vietnamese intercept facility on it and during the offensive, the Vietnamese reported tanks near the facility (02:31:47:00)  Kloet’s commanding officer asked why he and the other soldiers were not receiving that information from American sources and was told that he did not have high enough clearance, which upset the colonel (02:32:12:00)  During the offensive, some of the soldiers with Kloet managed to capture a couple of American-made APCs that the NVA had captured when the American forces in the area abandoned them (02:32:48:00) o After July 1st, a small Montagnard platoon occupied as small, triangular compound constructed by the Americans just to the west of Kloet’s position and the Montagnards defended that compound so fiercely that the enemy were not able to overrun it (02:33:55:00) When the offensive began in April, the Air Force talked with the soldiers and told them what types of ordinance were available, including smaller versions of gas bombs used to attack caves that had never been used in Vietnam (02:34:44:00) o The Air Force also provided a transponder so that if things ever got dicey, the soldiers could flip the switch, notifying the Air Force that they needed support while simultaneously telling the Air Force exactly where the soldiers were positioned (02:35:21:00) o After July 1st, the soldiers turned on the transponder and the Air Force sent a Spectre gunship, which was an awesome sight to see (02:35:42:00)  Instead of firing the heavy artillery aboard the aircraft, the crew mostly fired 20 mm miniguns, which looked like a laser going from the aircraft to the ground (02:35:55:00)  The Air Force also dropped a few of the gas bombs, which released a heavy gas that over-pressurized and killed anyone in the gas (02:36:22:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KloetR1071V2 Title A name given to the resource Kloet, Ronald (Interview outline and video, 2 of 3), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kloet, Ronald Description An account of the resource In July 1969, Ron Kloet returned to Vietnam for a third tour of duty. During this tour, he served as part of the intelligence section for the 1st Air Cavalry Division in the Phuoc Long Province. While with the 1st Air Cav., Kloet took part in operations within neighboring Cambodia. Once his tour with the Air Cav. ended, Kloet's original orders called for him to go to a career course at Fort Bragg. However, recalling previous time spent at Fort Bragg, Kloet instead requested going back to Vietnam for a fourth tour, which he received. Therefore, after receiving training in another career course and in a MASA (Military Assistance Security Advisory) course, Kloet deployed to Vietnam for a fourth time. During the fourth tour, Kloet served as part of the Phoenix program, a joint Vietnamese-American effort to neutralize the Viet Cong and communists at a local level. Also during his time with the Phoenix program, Kloet took part in the NVA's 1972 Easter Offensive, which occurred in a neighboring province. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-02-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/562e7572edb4523c9c0f81f4cd113d77.mp4 1053e202b5dff44e094bfd5a1cab8efe https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33cf9c099bc4c698b5402b6ea53f9a9b.pdf c0d59bfce82777e64cee93a44f8ef3bd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Ron Kloet part 3 Vietnam War Interview Length: (02:10:14:00) Recap / Fourth Vietnam Tour (00:00:29:00)  Prior to deploying for his fourth tour, Kloet attended a captain’s officer course and after completing that, rather than returning to Fort Bragg for re-assignment, Kloet decided he wanted something else (00:00:29:00) o Instead, Kloet decided to volunteer for the Phoenix Program, which, due to the on-going Vietnamization efforts, had been changed to the Vietnamese name for “phoenix”, Phung Hoang (00:01:00:00)  Once he joined the program, Kloet went to the Special Forces section of Fort Bragg for a military advisor course to study how to work in a combined center with the Phung Hoang program (00:01:22:00) o The Phung Hoang program was targeted against the enemy infrastructure, specifically individuals who were working for the Viet Cong (00:01:47:00) o During the advisor training, Kloet learned how to properly interact with his Vietnamese counterparts, how to acquire information and develop the information into dossiers, and how to execute plans to neutralize the Viet Cong infrastructure (00:02:01:00 o Although he had already in Vietnam for three previous tours, the Army also sent Kloet to a Vietnamese language course (00:02:21:00)  The course was every morning and consisted of only a small group of soldiers and an instructor going through each chapter of Vietnamese vocabulary (00:02:30:00)  However, the Vietnamese vocabulary that the soldiers learned was strictly related to the terms they would need to work with their Vietnamese counter-parts in the Phung Hoang program (00:02:47:00)  After completing the advisor program at Fort Bragg and having a short leave, Kloet deployed to Vietnam, arriving in Saigon, where he went through another orientation course given by the civilian side of the MACV (Military Assistance Command Vietnam), which was what the Phoenix Program was under (00:03:13:00) o During the orientation, Kloet and the other new members of the program were told how exactly they were supposed to report information (00:03:39:00) o Part of the course was also learning about one specific report, the Big MAC; all the soldiers were given books that showed the infrastructure of the Viet Cong, including where they were located, and Kloet took all the books with him when he reported to his unit (00:04:19:00)  From Saigon, Kloet went to the Binh Son province and the III Corps, where he received another orientation geared specifically for the region (00:04:39:00) o Kloet originally went to the Phuoc Long province and was assigned to a district in the south-east corner of the province, next to the neighboring II Corps area; once �   in the district, Kloet went through additional training to prepare him to take over for the departing Phoenix Program officer in the district (00:05:15:00) o By the time Kloet arrived in Phouc Long, the 1st Air Cav. Division, which had previously occupied the region, was gone (00:06:24:00) o During this time, the Army was consolidating its presence within Vietnam, so Kloet moved up to the province capital to replace an out-going major; this was the first time Kloet was able to spend more than a day with the soldier he was sent to replace, which meant Kloet could learn the ins and outs of the assignment and get feed-back from the major on how things were going (00:06:41:00) Once he finally took over for the major, the first thing Kloet discovered as that there was nothing going on in the province; Kloet and his soldiers would consolidate what information did come in into different reports (00:07:30:00) o At the time, Kloet had a Vietnamese interpreter assigned to him to help with Kloet’s Vietnamese counterpart, who spoke English but not the technical terminology (00:08:03:00)  The Vietnamese counterpart was of both Vietnamese and Chinese descent, thus making him less liked by pure, ethnic Vietnamese, who did not trust people with mixed blood (00:08:19:00)  Kloet’s interpreter was the son-in-law of the provincial leader, a colonel also of Vietnamese and Chinese ancestry (00:08:44:00)  Kloet’s Vietnamese counterpart was part of the South Vietnamese Special Police, which was equivalent to the American FBI and he eventually told Kloet that Kloet would never get anything done (00:09:18:00)  According to the counterpart, the military sector who controlled the province for the provincial leader would not allow any operations due to the operations being compromised (00:09:37:00)  Therefore, the only thing Kloet could do was work on different reports; as well, Kloet got intelligence clearance for his entire team because the previous intelligence officer had left and Kloet had received his job, which meant Kloet was then also working on intelligence (00:10:10:00)  For the intelligence work, Kloet had a specialist assigned to the group who took care of all the documentation (00:10:36:00) When Kloet first arrived for the tour, his unit’s living quarters and other rooms were housed in underground bunkers in the northern part of the compound (00:11:09:00) o The living quarters were very secure because some years before, during the Tet Offensive, the enemy had attacked the capital and destroyed everything, so Army engineers came in and built the bunkers (00:11:36:00)  During the time when Kloet first arrived at the unit, the unit was consolidating, moving down to a total of fifteen personnel (00:12:29:00) o Kloet himself moved in with an advisor to the regular South Vietnamese street police, a retired NYPD lieutenant (00:12:46:00) o When he first arrived, Kloet went through a daily routine of sitting in committees and going through paperwork, which was boring because Kloet had gone through the necessary training and he wanted to see something happen (00:13:13:00) While in training, Kloet had received warnings about the possibility of corruption amongst the South Vietnamese (00:13:32:00) �  o Kloet believes that the Americans were naïve in believing that all people were good when in reality, nothing happened unless “the skids were greased”, a situation common throughout the third world (00:13:35:00) o Once, during Kloet’s second tour, a local Vietnamese leader wanted to sell rice back to the Montagnards when the rice had been seized from the Viet Cong, who had stolen the rice from the Montagnards in the first place (00:14:04:00) When the unit’s S-2 eventually departed, Kloet took over those responsibilities as well, so he was working two jobs, although there was very little going on (00:14:32:00) o The majority of the people who Kloet dealt with were Montagnards, a simple people who were more anti-Vietnamese then strictly anti-Communist because the Vietnamese had treated them like dirt for centuries (00:14:52:00) o Over time, Kloet and his personnel did the things that were necessary for their assignment, although on occasion, there were some incidents where Kloet needed to go out and verify the bodies of enemy soldiers (00:15:16:00)  One time, the Vietnamese PRU (Province Recon Unit) came into contact with the enemy east of the province capital, so Kloet had to visit the location with his two interpreters, one who had been assigned to Kloet straight away and one Kloet gained when the S-2 departed (00:15:27:00)  Once at the location, Kloet had to take pictures of all the dead bodies (00:16:14:00)  The PRU did not receive any payment unless the dead enemy were verified to be Viet Cong (00:16:26:00)  Another time, there was an incident at another district headquarters where soldiers had killed another five enemy (00:16:36:00)  By the time Kloet arrived to inspect the bodies, it was the middle of the day and the bodies had been laying in the hot sun in a pile since sun-up and they stunk (00:17:01:00) The frustration of not being able to get anything done eventually caused Kloet to fire his interpreter from the Phoenix Program because Kloet thought the interpreter was a snitch for the enemy (00:17:23:00) o Everything planning to be done eventually reached the interpreter’s father-in-law, the provincial chief, and if the chief did not like it, then the plan did not go forward (00:17:41:00)  The province chief was not openly supporting the Viet Cong but was instead playing both sides, the Americans and the Viet Cong, against the middle (00:18:12:00)  Because of the province’s proximity to Cambodia, there was also politics involved in the decision-making; the province was far enough away from Saigon that there was some political leeway while there was also a strong presence of North Vietnamese and Viet Cong coming in from Cambodia (00:18:18:00)  The government did not want to remove the province chief because he managed to keep everything in the province in line (00:18:49:00) �   None of the Vietnamese who Kloet talked to particularly liked the province chief nor did they trust him but the chief was in charge and that was the way things went (00:19:05:00) When Kloet fired the interpreter, it upset the province chief, which meant nothing go done until the beginning of April 1972, when the North Vietnamese began their Easter Offensive (00:19:10:00) o When the offensive began, the enemy attacked in the next province over and managed to cut the road from Kloet’s province to Saigon, which meant no food or supplies were coming in (00:19:43:00) o Once the offensive began, the province chief and his staff began arresting people in the province who had possible Viet Cong or North Vietnamese Army connections and throwing them in jail (00:20:09:00)  The prisoners were placed into holding areas that looked like chicken coops (00:20:25:00) o Eventually, Kloet received a phone call from the representative of the Pacification Security Group for that particular area of III Corps asking on whose authority the province chief and his staff had been using to arrest those people (00:20:54:00)  Kloet talked with his counterpart about the questions and the counterpart showed Kloet a document; when Kloet asked if he could have one, the counterpart said he could (00:21:43:00)  The document dated from 1968 and stated that the province chief could arrest whomever he wanted (00:22:17:00)  The document had existed since 1968 but because of the US Army’s rotation policy, the Americans had forgotten about it (00:22:25:00) o The province chief tended not to act on intelligence because he did not want to stir up trouble with the enemy; instead, he padded his list of available suspects and once the fight began, then he could make arrests (00:22:53:00) o All the interrogations of the prisoners was handled by the South Vietnamese and Kloet does not know how they did it because the South Vietnamese never brought in Kloet or his men (00:23:12:00)  At the time, there was a South Vietnamese fire support base alongside a highway to the south and all of the sudden, the police arrested the captain in charge of the base and brought him back to the province capital but Kloet never knew where the captain went (00:23:24:00)  The South Vietnamese police acted under the guise that the prisoners had relatives in either the Viet Cong or North Vietnamese Army (00:24:05:00) o In some ways, Kloet was happy that the offensive finally did come because it offered him and his men the opportunity to do real work trying to find out what was going to happen in their province (00:24:23:00)  Once the enemy cut the roads into the province, Kloet got more approvals for operations, including a B-52 strike in the north (00:24:50:00) During the offensive, Kloet received intel from the local intelligence unit about enemy movements as well as the locations of enemy supply caches (00:25:08:00) �    However, from his experience during his first tour, Kloet could tell that must of the information was inaccurate and he had no way to substantiate the intel (00:25:32:00)  After the Easter Offensive finished, someone from the Pacification Security Group visited Kloet asking for targets for a group of defectors the man was running who went out and attacked enemy targets (00:26:09:00)  Kloet decided to use the request as a test to substantiate the claims made by the intelligence unit; it turned out that every single piece of intelligence from the unit was bogus (00:26:52:00) While still gathering intelligence for the other units, Kloet’s commanders also wanted him to still file his month reports (00:27:27:00) o The MAC report was an infrastructure report detail individual villages and locations where the enemy was located, what was their strength, etc.; however, there was no way to get all that information, so Kloet just submitted the information from the previous month (00:27:37:00) At the beginning of the Easter Offensive, there had been a South Vietnamese unit stationed along the border but when the enemy began bringing in tanks, the unit retreated, leaving the Montagnards behind (00:28:24:00) o When the Montagnards eventually made it back, the province chief decided to give them the old Air Cav. base, which was still standing (00:28:39:00) On July 1st, all hell broke loose in Kloet’s province (00:28:53:00) o The enemy had a 152mm artillery gun that was firing towards the capital; Kloet had to do crater analysis, which was how they managed to find out the caliber of the gun (00:29:03:00) o Before the enemy managed to cut the road from the district headquarters to the province capital, the Americans had issued M-72 LAWs (00:29:27:00) o At one point, a single platoon defended a triangular position against an entire enemy battalion (00:30:01:00) o Eventually, the enemy attempted to take the mountain located next to the town, where the South Vietnamese had a radio-intercept position (00:30:32:00)  Kloet’s South Vietnamese counter-part gave Kloet intelligence about communications between North Vietnamese tanks; Kloet showed the information to his commanding officer, who wondered why the American intelligence could not tell that there were tanks out there (00:30:50:00)  The commanding officer, a colonel, asked up the chain-of-command about why there was no intelligence from the Americans (00:31:23:00)  Before the offensive began, Kloet’s unit received an electronic box that when turned out, sent out an electronic beacon, to be used in case the unit was about to be overrun (00:31:32:00)  Once a unit turned on the beacon, the Air Force deployed a Spectre gunship, an AC-130 mounted with Gatling guns (00:31:46:00)  As the fighting for the mountain continued, the Air Force continuously launched air strikes against enemy positions along the side of the mountain, making it so the enemy never managed to take the top of the mountain (00:32:03:00) � o Although Air Force air strikes continued around the district capital, the road leading into the town was still cut; after about a week of fighting, the Americans mounted an armed convoy to retake the road and re-establish contact with the district capital (00:32:20:00)  Kloet traveled with the convoy and watched as the Air Force continued dropping bombs on enemy positions (00:32:43:00)  The ground around the district capital was all torn up with craters from where the Air Force had dropped their bombs (00:33:09:00)  The airfield for the district capital had taken several mortar strikes and Kloet was ordered to determine what caliber the mortar rounds were (00:33:27:00)  While measuring the mortar strikes at the airfield, Kloet heard the whistle of incoming mortar rounds, so he ran to a small shack that served as the airfield’s control tower (00:33:43:00)  Flights did not come into the airfield every day because the Air America re-supply flights landed on an old two-lane road near the province capital (00:34:01:00)  When the mortar rounds started coming in, Kloet ran to a nearby trench and hopped in, although the South Vietnamese had been throwing their garbage in the trench (00:34:35:00)  From the district capital, the South Vietnamese took vehicles captured from the North Vietnamese, all of which turned out to be American-made, and towed them back to the province capital to display (00:35:05:00)  All the destruction done to the vehicles happened from South Vietnamese soldiers armed with LAWs (00:35:43:00)  One of the vehicles had been hauling ammunition and when the LAW round hit, it was like someone took a can opener to the side of the vehicle (00:35:48:00) o During the offensive, the regular South Vietnamese Army units assigned to Kloet’s province actually fought in the neighboring province, which was where the thrust of the enemy attack was; although the South Vietnamese forces fought very well, there were two things that helped the South Vietnamese (00:36:16:00)  First, an American Air Cav. brigade from the 1st Air Cav. division was still in the province and second, there was a tremendous amount of air power, both from a Marine air wing and an Air Force air wing (00:36:51:00)  The fighting was still tough because the enemy attacked toward the capital with tanks, who’s crews had been chained inside their tanks; the crews were not stupid and they knew that driving tanks into cities was a bad idea, especially if the enemy had anti-tank weapons (00:37:17:00) In Kloet’s province, the Vietnamese forces divided into three groups: the regular South Vietnamese army, which consisted of only South Vietnamese, and the Regional Forces (RFs) and Popular Forces (PFs), which consisted of Montagnard soldiers (00:38:01:00) o The PFs were used for local defense around the various villages and they fought very well while the RFs were a mixture of both South Vietnamese and Montagnard soldiers and were under the direct command of the sector commanders, acting as a sort of Ready Reaction Force (00:38:14:00) � o From what Kloet saw, the South Vietnamese treated the Montagnards at a level that the Vietnamese would treat a dog (00:39:13:00) By the time Kloet’s tour wound down to an end in 1972, the situation had stabilized, with the North Vietnamese having pulled back into Cambodia (00:40:41:00) o In Kloet’s mind, had the United States continued to offer military support at a level akin to that of 1972, the end of the war would have turned out differently for South Vietnam (00:41:08:00) o Kloet, and as he believes, many of the Vietnamese and other veterans, feels that President Nixon and Secretary of State Kissinger sold out the soldiers in order to get a deal passed that allowed the United States to get out of the conflict without any more casualties; according to Kloet, had Nixon not jeopardized his political standing with Watergate, the United States could have pulled out of the war while still maintaining a high level of logistical support to South Vietnam (00:41:38:00)  The South Vietnamese forces had learned how to operation and how to fight as how the Americans would (00:42:41:00) Germany (00:43:43:00)  Once his tour finished in September 1972, to preclude having to go back to Fort Bragg, Kloet took an ITT (Inter-Theater Transfer) test for Germany (00:43:43:00)  After completing the test, Kloet was assigned to the G-2 section for a headquarters in Heidelberg, Germany; however, because his security clearance from 1966 had expired, Kloet needed to get it updated (00:44:05:00) o However, the Army did not want to wait for Kloet to get his security clearance, so the Army amended his orders, sending him to the Third Infantry Division in Wurzburg, where he was assigned to work as the surveillance officer in the G-2 (00:44:46:00)  The soldier commanding Kloet’s new unit was a major, eventually promoted to colonel, while Kloet’s particular section consisted of himself and two enlisted personnel, a lieutenant and master sergeant (00:45:17:00)  Because the division was operating in “peacetime”, Kloet’s section was responsible for keeping the map library for the division, establishing map policies, and establishing policies for using ground-surveillance equipment within the division (00:45:55:00)  The section’s training consisted of going into the field with the rest of the G-2 and setting up a desk inside the TOC (Tactical Operations Center) to help with surveillance requests (00:46:44:00)  Kloet arrived at the division in November 1972 and the first thing he noticed was the temperature was very cold (00:47:48:00) o Kloet went to do the standard things necessary to be issued his field gear but when he went, the supply unit did not have any of the equipment, so Kloet was told to come back the following week (00:47:57:00) o However, before Kloet could go back to get the gear, a field exercise was scheduled, so the commanding officer told Kloet he could stay behind and maintain the office, taking down incoming messages (00:48:14:00)  Halfway through the week, Kloet received a phone call from one of the other officers in the G-2 saying that the colonel wanted to see Kloet; �  however, Kloet stated that the only way he was going out was if he had some field gear because there was snow outside (00:48:47:00)  Kloet managed to get some field gear although when he was going out to the field, it was in an open-top jeep and Kloet was still cold, despite all the clothing (00:49:19:00)  Once Kloet arrived at the G-2’s position, he waited and waited and waited, until it was finally two or three in the morning before Kloet asked one of the other officers what was going on (00:49:32:00)  Someone eventually went to ask the G-2 what Kloet needed to do because he did not have a tent or any other equipment and Kloet was told just to go back (00:50:16:00)  The experience with the G-2 during the exercise did not leave a good taste in Kloet’s mouth (00:50:40:00) Most of the time, Kloet’s new job was boring because the only time he really did anything was in the field (00:50:45:00) o Kloet had an additional duty, serving as part of a two-officer team who had the responsibility of launching nuclear weapons if that time ever came (00:50:50:00)  During his career course, Kloet had received training on nuclear weapons, such as which area to drop a bomb in order to receive the largest amount of destruction, where not to drop bombs, the security of the bombs, what their guard forces were, etc. (00:51:29:00)  Kloet did this job during the day with another officer who had been given access (00:51:57:00) o At one point, Kloet received an assignment to take photographs of the division’s entire forward area of operations, running from the mountains on the division’s right flank to the city on the division’s left flank (00:52:39:00)  It took several days, during which Kloet and an assistant took Kloet’s personal vehicle and drove with camera equipment to the main areas, moving from the left flank to the right flank (00:53:20:00)  The pictures were panoramic, so Kloet and his assistant had to climb hills and mountains (00:53:44:00)  When Kloet finally came back with all the photographs, he took the division’s “general defense plan” and some maps to equate each set of images to a location on the map (00:54:06:00)  After organizing each panoramic with a map, Kloet took another picture of both the map and the panoramic, which he then organized into a slide show, first showing the picture of both the map and the panoramic then just the panoramic (00:54:52:00)  Although Kloet had been promised reimbursement for all the money he spent on gasoline and food, he never received anything (00:55:20:00) In early May, the 3rd division underwent a review, where all the officers in the division had to go to the division headquarters in Wurzburg to go through interviews with OfficerPersonnel (OP) officers (00:55:37:00) o During the interview, the OP officer reviewed Kloet’s entire record and commented on all the training Kloet had received (00:56:16:00) � o At the end of May, Kloet received word that the colonel wanted all the officers serving in the G-2 to report to his office (00:57:26:00)  Once all the officers had gathered, the colonel individually handed out letters, most of which were discharge orders (00:57:47:00)  The criteria for discharge was that if an officer had made captain between January 1st, 1968 and June 30th, 1969, then he was discharged (00:58:51:00)  After the colonel handed out the discharge letters, the only officer left in the G-2 was a counter-intelligence officer who was Regular Army (00:59:26:00)  After receiving their letters, Kloet and the other officers had ninety days before their discharge papers became official (00:59:52:00)  Kloet and the other officers also received top priority when going through out-processing, so Kloet decided to just go home, although the G-2 tried to get Kloet to stay (01:00:23:00) An issue Kloet had with the colonel in charge of the G-2 was that the colonel would order maps from Kloet for every unit in the division, not just the division headquarters (01:00:50:00) o Kloet knew the S-2s in the various brigades in the division and they all laughed at the colonel (01:01:21:00) o It eventually reached the point that Kloet had an entire storage room in the basement of the division headquarters just filled with maps for operations that nobody ever used (01:02:03:00) o Whenever the G-2 section went into the field as part of an exercise, Kloet had all the maps the section would need already rolled up and separate so that all the soldiers had to do was pick up the container, throw it into the back of the truck and go; however, the colonel did not like this (01:02:18:00) o When Kloet received his discharge orders and decided to go home immediately, the colonel was bent out of shape, so Kloet never received the reimbursement for the photography assignment and he had to go all the way to the Department of the Army to receive the colonel’s final efficiency report for Kloet (01:02:47:00) o At one point, instead of doing it himself, the colonel ordered Kloet to write a letter of reprimand against the officer in-charge of the M-I (Military-Intelligence) section of the G-2 (01:03:32:00) o During another period, Kloet and his section spent four months working on a report about ground radar, only for the report not to be published (01:04:01:00)  In those four months, Kloet gathered input from all the units who would be using the radar and incorporated the useful information into the report; however, the colonel did not accept some of the information, so Kloet had to write back to some of the units and formally explain why he was not using their information in the report (01:04:04:00)  Once he finished, Kloet put the entire report in the colonel’s in-out box and left it there (01:05:07:00) o One of the largest faults of the colonel was that in reaching that rank, he never learned how to effectively communicate with subordinates (01:05:37:00) �  At the time Kloet was in Germany, most of the lower-ranking officers, such as captains, were combat veterans, including the M-I officers (01:06:16:00) o Kloet himself was one of the first officers to go to a M-I specific officer training course, in 1964; prior to 1964, M-I officers went to infantry training first and M-I training second (01:06:40:00) o On the other hand, the colonel had always served in military intelligence and to Kloet, it seemed like the colonel was always trying to one-up someone else (01:06:59:00)  One time, the colonel threw a large, very nice, Christmas party and of the sixty-eight people invited, the only ones who showed up were the colonel’s wife, an unfit sergeant-major, and the officers; the other sixty or so soldiers had a choice of whether or not to show up (01:07:09:00)  The colonel was livid that none of the soldiers showed up but the colonel never understood why (01:07:48:00)  After receiving his discharge, Kloet followed the colonel’s career and the colonel eventually ended up at the DIA as an O-6 colonel (01:07:59:00) When Kloet returned to the United States in June 1972, he went to Fort Meade, Maryland to serve in the management office for the base (01:08:46:00) o Kloet served under a major in the management office but the first thing the major did when Kloet arrived was go to a training course in Miami (01:09:03:00) o Kloet’s job was to gather any money collected the previous night from the various officer and enlisted clubs, organize and document the money, then take it to the management office (01:09:17:00)  Kloet also inspected the clubs, listened to any problems or complaints and tried to fix the problems within the limit capacity he had (01:09:36:00) Post-Active Duty Service (01:10:10:00)  Once Kloet finally left the Army, he went to graduate school at Michigan State University to earn a master’s degree in history (01:10:10:00) o The program was divided into two tracks, A and B, with the A tract consisting of a thesis and intended for students going onto a doctorate; Kloet himself took the B track because he had no intention of going on for a PhD (01:10:30:00) o During the course, Kloet wrote roughly a paper a week while also taking classes in historiography (01:10:44:00)  Kloet ended up paying a woman who was a typist to type up all of his papers for him (01:11:06:00) o The majority of Kloet’s involved Eastern Europe and Russia, including ancient Russian history and Soviet history, along with classes about European and American history (01:11:24:00) o To fulfill his language requirements, Kloet took a Russian language refresher course, which was a great experience because Kloet had not used the language since 1965 (01:12:07:00)  Apart from the master’s degree in History, Kloet also got a teaching certificate, although he now considers that to be a waste of his time (01:12:56:00) o As part of the teaching certificate, Kloet did some student-teaching at a high school in Warren, Michigan, where he taught a couple of World History courses �o o o o o o o and a Russian History course because of the large amount of people with Slavic backgrounds living in Warren (01:13:16:00) While teaching the Russian History course, Kloet contacted his professor at Michigan State asking for a book recommendation to use as the text for the students (01:13:56:00)  The World History classes did not actually have textbooks but rather, a series of brochures (01:14:58:00) While teaching the World History courses, Kloet decided to give the students a mid-term exam, although the only thing he could do was lecture using the brochures (01:15:24:00) Most of the students in Kloet’s courses did not have any discipline (01:16:11:00) After giving the mid-term exam, which Kloet comprised of multiple choice questions taken verbatim from the texts, the highest grade was a 72% and the lowest was in the thirties (01:16:35:00)  Kloet ended up taking the average of the scores and making it the highest of the class and he still was only able to pass a couple more of the students (01:17:03:00)  Kloet individually took each student into the hall to explain their grade and what was going to be sent home, which caused many of the students to become upset (01:17:13:00) On the other hand, the Russian History course was good because the students were motivated, Type-A people going to college (01:17:38:00)  Because the school did not approve of Kloet’s textbook selection, he had to lecture for the most part, so in one weekend, Kloet outlined the entire book (01:17:53:00)  One of the students wanted to do a paper on the Russian Orthodox Church and one day, Kloet received a phone call that the mother of the student wanted to talk with Kloet (01:18:36:00)  Kloet called the mother to see what the problem was and she said that the student was consumed with working on the paper, doing nothing else (01:19:26:00) Apart from the student teaching, Kloet also had to take a courses at the Michigan Department of Education on how to properly manage a classroom (01:20:24:00)  Kloet’s advisor, PhD candidate, had never actually taught in a classroom while Kloet had taught while in the Army, which meant he knew how to operate the equipment in a classroom, so the advisor said Kloet did not have to take the course (01:20:41:00) At different times, Kloet and the other students had to go to sessions where they were supposed to “bare their souls to the others” (01:21:16:00)  Kloet was the oldest person in the group by far and he had had classes with some of the other members, including a girl whose habits annoyed Kloet (01:21:30:00)  As he closed in on finishing the teacher certification program, Kloet had to go to a final interview with his advisor, where Kloet talked about the role he played in the group seminars (01:22:15:00) �     When the advisors asked about the role, Kloet explained that he was older than all the other members and he did not see the benefit of going over his own experiences (01:22:44:00) After he neared the end of the history program at Michigan State and obtained his teacher certification, Kloet went to the employment office at Michigan State and was told to what to put down to create an effective resume (01:23:26:00) o Kloet sent the resume out to ever school district he could find in the employment office and although he obtained some interviews, by and large, Kloet received rejection letters (01:23:57:00)  The common thread amongst the rejection letters was that Kloet had too much experience and the school districts could not hire him; Kloet’s experience as at the level of Master’s Degree +, which was too high for an entry-level teaching position (01:24:22:00)  Kloet also looked at private schools and he thought he had found one opening, at a military school, but the teacher who was planning to retire decided not to retire (01:24:42:00) After graduating, Kloet tried to substitute teach, which he did not like because the school districts would call him early in the morning and on most occasions, there was never a lesson plan that Kloet was supposed to follow for that day (01:25:05:00) Eventually, Kloet decided to work on his active-duty position and began teaching summers at the various Army schools, eventually going to the Command and General Staff College for almost a year, where he eventually worked his way up to commandant of the entire college (01:25:32:00) o Although Kloet had retired, by teaching at the Army schools, he increased the amount of time he had on active duty, with the intention of reaching twenty years on active duty; when Kloet first started teaching at the Army schools, he had fourteen years of active duty and slowly added onto that amount (01:26:10:00) o Working at the Command and General Staff college was really good assignment for Kloet (01:26:52:00) o Kloet also worked at the 5th Army headquarters at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio, Texas (01:27:16:00) o Overall, the best assignment Kloet had was when Kloet was the commander of the intelligence school at Fort Sam Houston, where Kloet sent out various instructors to different reserve units to give the reservists MOS qualifications (01:27:35:00) From March 1983 until June 1995, Kloet worked as part of U.S. Army Foreign Intelligence Activity (FIA), directing the Collection/Management division (01:28:34:00) o When he joined the FIA, Kloet worked in the Collection/Management branch, which involved organizing the collection of information, so that the intelligence services would only gather the intelligence they needed to gather (01:29:20:00)  As part of this, there were collection plans listing what information needed to be collected and how to collect it, based on a certain set of requirements, such as geographic areas, technical areas, etc. (01:29:51:00)  Kloet’s Collection/Management Division was organized to go worldwide coverage to collect human intelligence (HUMINT) (01:30:10:00) �  “Worldwide” did not mean every country in the world but rather focused on specific countries relative to the master HUMINT collection plan, which was controlled by the CIA (01:30:23:00)  Apart from the Army FIA, there were also intelligence collection units in the Navy, Air Force, and Marines, although Army intelligence became the largest and most important of the units (01:30:45:00) o Army intelligence eventually became the only collection unit to use actual operations, not just debriefings and overt collections (01:30:53:00)  The other collection units had soldiers trained in this and many of those individuals were eventually absorbed into Army intelligence (01:31:29:00)  Apart from performing operations, Army intelligence also had several detachments of overt de-briefers to work with foreign personnel and technical personnel, such as American businessmen and embassy employees (01:31:46:00)  Kloet’s section worked primarily with reporting on operations that Army intelligence was performing (01:32:08:00)  Whenever a specific American group would request information on a specific area, Army intelligence would submit a capabilities statement outline what Army intelligence could do (01:32:49:00)  If a specific area or situation arose that would require long-term observation, such as the Middle East, Russia or China, then Army intelligence could develop a source (01:33:11:00)  The other side of collection/management was to publish the information to came from the various operations (01:34:11:00) o Kloet’s job was to sort through the information that came through and organize it for publishing, as well as check to make sure the initial questions that they were searching for were answered (01:34:24:00) o The period leading up to the first Gulf War was very intriguing, specifically the conflict occurring between Iraq and Iran (01:35:56:00) o Army intelligence was divided into branches, with a branch devoted to each of the Army’s commands (01:35:44:00) o The first Gulf War did not really change how Army intelligence operated (01:36:39:00)  Operations tended to develop over time and as the processes were done correctly, more information became available; if something happened to change the progression, modifications might be needed but the personnel in Army intelligence continued the operation regardless (01:36:51:00) Kloet worked for Army intelligence until 1995 as a civilian employee, at which point his unit was absorbed into a newly-formed organization; in large part, Kloet’s unit was largely a victim of its own success (01:38:05:00) �o At the time, the DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency) convinced members of Congress that consolidation of all the intelligence services’ collection units under one unit, the DIA, was more efficient and cost-effective (01:38:48:00) o After the DIA made their suggestions, units across all the services were either absorbed into the DIA or deactivated; part of the agreement was that all members of the FIA would receive positions within the new organization (01:39:14:00) o The new organization was labeled “Defense Human Service” and was technically headed by an Army Brigadier General; the organization’s first commander was Kloet’s former commanding officer when Kloet first joined the Air Cavalry in Vietnam (01:39:40:00)  When the general saw what was happening within the new organization, he told Kloet that he was going to try and leave because he did not like the situation (01:40:07:00)  After the first general retired, another brigadier took command of the organizations; however, because he still wanted to advance his career the general began spending most of his time at the White House, acting as a representative for the organization (01:40:23:00) o Within the new organization, Kloet worked as a desk officer in the Eurasian division, focusing specifically on the former Soviet Islamic republics in Central Asia (01:41:01:00)  For the five countries, Kloet had one attaché while military representatives covered the others (01:41:40:00)  The military representatives were often students trained at a former Soviet military academy that specialized in training soldiers to work within the Islamic republics (01:41:54:00)  Although there was no specific assignment for his section, the work was still interesting for Kloet because he was able to meet people and because he gained insight into why the situations within the five republics were not working properly (01:42:22:00)  Kloet’s job involved gathering information from each source about the situation within a specific republic and there were several ways of communicating back and forth (01:42:51:00)  There was the traditional encrypted communications but in one case, the counter-part in one of the republics would not bother encrypting the report (01:43:01:00)  Whenever a military advisor was scheduled to go to one of the republics, they would first talk with Kloet to become oriented with the area (01:43:42:00)  The biggest problem Kloet ran into was logistically supporting all the representatives, although there was an entirely separate section within the organization for logistics (01:44:26:00) o However, the logistics section had to take care of logistics for representatives from all over the world, not just Kloet’s (01:45:01:00) o When Kloet first joined the organization, he checked what was needed so he could eventually get out, so he talked with the woman in charge of retirements, � who said that although Kloet could retire at sixty, he did not have a large amount of civil service credit (01:45:51:00)  Kloet could get to the thirty years necessary if he converted some of his active-duty military years, which entailed paying six percent of his base salary for every year in the military that needed conversion, which totaled 13+ years (01:46:20:00)  Kloet paid for the years to be converted and that brought him up to the years needed (01:47:18:00)  Eventually, it reached the point that the continuous rigors of the job, such as waking up at 3:30 a.m. to get the train, took their toll on Kloet and he decided to put in his retirement paperwork (01:47:36:00)  When discussing retirement, Kloet asked whether it mattered if he did not fully reached thirty years and when the woman told him it would only cost a dollar a month, Kloet decided to retire (01:49:07:00) Once Kloet finally retired, he returned to Michigan to live in a house he had bought for his mother in the 1960s, although his mother had passed away in 1992 (01:49:32:00) o At the end of September 2001, Kloet received a phone call from a former subordinate from Vietnam asking if Kloet wanted to come back to work; when Kloet said he did, the soldier said Kloet need to update his clearance level (01:49:57:00) o After finishing the necessary paperwork, Kloet sent it back in and waited for a reply; eventually, in March, he received a telephone call telling him that everything was okay and he could begin working (01:50:38:00) o Kloet needed a place to live near Washington, so he contacted a friend whose wife was a real estate agent and she helped Kloet find a place (01:51:27:00) o Once he got back to work, Kloet was working in counter-terrorist operations group within the Defense HUMINT service (01:52:20:00)  Kloet enjoyed doing the work because it gave him an opportunity to teach younger soldiers (01:53:37:00)  Kloet’s section was led by a Navy Commander and she did not like the job because it was somewhat out of her comfort zone (01:53:50:00)  Pacific Command was Kloet’s area of interest and he eventually became involved in writing reports for the DIA to act in countries where the analysts thought there were credible operations (01:54:22:00)  This was the first time that Kloet saw the politics that went into the operations and he saw the large number of successful operations that went unnoticed (01:54:54:00) o Although he enjoyed doing the job, Kloet did not actually make any money because of the expenses that he incurred (01:56:12:00) o Once the time came for Kloet to extend his contract, the DIA fooled around with it and Kloet decided to just go home (01:56:59:00) o The only downside of doing the work was Kloet had to interact with analysts at the CIA and they often made it so they were the center of everything that was happening and would fight with Kloet tooth and nail (01:57:07:00) �  o At one point, the chief CIA analyst wanted a meeting with the DIA analyst and based on his previous work experience with the CIA, Kloet ventured a guess as to what type of person the analyst was (01:58:20:00)  Sure enough, when the meeting happened, the chief was a bureaucrat and it was because of him that the majority of the work Kloet and the others did was met with opposition (01:58:31:00) In Kloet’s mind, one of the positives to come out of the 9/11 attacks was the establishment of the Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) (01:59:33:00) o Prior to the attacks, there was a large amount of cooperation amongst the various intelligence agencies at the ground level; problems developed around the bureaucrats, each of whom had vested interests in maintaining their authority (01:59:56:00)  Whenever there were conflicts, it was often agency versus agency, never individual versus individual (02:00:20:00) o In a macro sense, Kloet believes that the NIO (National Intelligence Office) was very difficult to control without controlling the agency’s budget and he believes the CIA still trying to hold onto its position as the top dog of all the American intelligence agencies (02:00:56:00)  From Kloet’s perspective, it has reached the point that regardless of what the situation is, it will always be resolved how the CIA wants it to be resolved (02:01:47:00)  The dominance of the CIA amongst the intelligence agencies has led to a reduction in the multiplicity of sources; the CIA has fought tooth and nail since the formation of the different service intelligence units because the CIA wanted to control everything (02:02:27:00) o When President Bush wanted to reorganize and expand the TSA (Transportation Safety Administration), he wanted to hire outside contractors until enough personnel were trained; however, the bureaucrats in charge of the intelligence agencies forced him to take personnel from the current ranks of the agencies, so Kloet knows people who advanced several ranks by doing so (02:03:54:00) o At the local level, there is mutual cooperation between the different organizations; it is with the higher-ranking bureaucrats where the problems begin to arise (02:06:16:00) Looking back on his career, when he first joined the service, Kloet enjoyed it because he was young and his brain was full of the stories his uncles had told him about serving in World War II (02:07:09:00) o When he first enlisted, Kloet’s goal was to eventually be an officer, although he was not sure about make the military a career (02:07:41:00) o Being placed in the Air Force signals intelligence was enjoyable for Kloet and it pushed him towards going to college for degrees in Russian language and literature (02:07:54:00) o After completing his degrees, Kloet realized that his chances of finding a job as a civilian were small, so he began looking at working for different government agencies (02:08:23:00) �o Kloet always wanted a career in the military, just never a career in a specific field in the military; although he enjoyed the intelligence work, Kloet also enjoyed just being busy (02:09:03:00) o Kloet would serve again, although he would make some changes, such as keeping his mouth shut a little bit more because he irritated some people (02:09:58:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KloetR1071V3 Title A name given to the resource Kloet, Ronald (Interview outline and video, 3 of 3), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kloet, Ronald Description An account of the resource Prior to beginning his fourth tour in Vietnam, Ron Kloet initially went through officers training with the Army intending to give him an assignment at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Kloet, wanting something else, instead volunteered to serve in the Phoenix program, a specialized program in Vietnam. After finished the fourth tour, Kloet transferred from Vietnam to Germany to work as an intelligence officer. Following his tour in Germany, Kloet's military service ended and he attended Michigan State University, attaining master degrees in Russian history and Russian literature. However, Kloet found his work at graduation unsatisfying, so he began working to complete enough active-duty service time to retire with a pension. Eventually, Kloet began working for the U.S. Army Foreign Intelligence Activity (FIA) as a civilian employee. In 1995, the FIA and other intelligence agencies reorganized and Kloet, not liking his new roll, eventually retired. Then, in Sept. 2001, he received a phone call from a former colleague asking Kloet to return to work. Kloet did return for six months before retiring for good. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-02-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78707961d3dc4f133b4ab87a3825cfa9.m4v 1cb2c534c22a43348483e25cb6e025ab https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cee18bd22ed62733710bd96a18d6ad76.pdf 7e5380deaa535f7d22c63b1888ee71fa PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Donald Klooster World War II 41 minutes 51 seconds (00:00:20) Early Life -Born in Munster Indiana -Attended grade school at Munster Christian School. -Drafted in 1943 at age 18. -Served for three years. -After the War graduated from Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, after a half year. -Father worked to sell produce in Hammond Indiana. -Maintained work through the Great Depression. -Siblings consisted of three brothers and a sister. -Older brother, Fred, became minister teaching at Calvin seminary. -Deferred from military service due to being a minister. -Brother Jerry became a medical doctor. -Younger by two years. -Served in Navy out of Chicago. -In his youth hadn’t kept track of news about the War. -Worked on family farm in his youth, driving produce to Chicago. -Jim: younger brother by 2~6 years. -Served in the military post WWII with no combat encountered. -Sister: the youngest sibling, worked at home. -Graduated high school in 1942. -Remembers learning of the news from Pearl Harbor. (00:05:15) Drafted into Service -Drafted on March 18th 1943. -Sent to Camp Atterbury, Indiana for basic training. -Encountered a friend from home as they began training. -No prior experience with guns. -Discipline took a little getting used to. -One humorous example: promoted to Private First Class but quickly demoted for resisting guard duty. -Eventually returned to PFC status. -Basic training lasted around 8-10 weeks. -Volunteered for Airborne. -Sent to Fort Benning Georgia for parachute training. -Training: jumping from gradually increasing height. -Highly meticulous preparation of the parachute into the mechanism. -Women’s Army Corps members also on hand to pack and prepare parachutes. -Being part of the paratroopers qualified for extra pay, $4 more a month. [I think this is what they’re saying but it’s hard to hear] �-Training: running for several miles at a time. (00:10:00) -Training highly focused on the care and preparation of the parachutes. -Went on four training jumps. -Followed by a 14 day furlough, after which preparation began to ship out. -No knowledge that anyone was injured during training. -One bad experience: stepped out of plane in training jump a wrong way which led to him spinning as he fell. -Airborne training lasted around two months. -During airborne training was assigned to Headquarters Company, 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment. -After training had no information yet whether they would go to Europe or Pacific. (00:14:15) the Philippines and Invasion of Corregidor -Sent to the Philippines. -Plane landed on Negros Island. -Uncertain but believes they were likely flown directly from Georgia. -Prior to the Philippines, made a brief stop in New Guinea. -Philippines invaded in late 1944. -First stop Mindoro Island. -Did more training, including shooting, at the base on Mindoro. -Didn’t follow news of the War in depth, but knew generally the US was doing well. -Invasion of Corregidor. -February 1945 combat jump in Corregidor. -Island layout was a “sniper’s paradise”. -Heavy use of tunnels made invasion difficult and costly in lives. -Certain Japanese were using explosive rounds. -Winds caused some paratroopers to land in the ocean. -Suffered casualties amongst their unit. (00:20:00) -An explosive round nearby caused shrapnel damage to the shoulder. -Received a bronze star with Philippines liberation ribbon. -Japanese would come in waves out of the tunnels at Malinta hill. -A tactic of the Japanese: at night threw rocks the size of grenades interspersed with occasional live grenades. -February 21st, a Lieutenant used a tank to fire directly into a Japanese tunnel. -Ammo cache explosion caused a huge amount of destruction as massive debris injured or killed allies as well as enemies. -Encountered MacArthur as he arrived to the island. -Not too impressed. -Due to his shoulder injury he is sent home before the War ends. -Arrive home summer of 1945. -Discharged in January of 1946. (00:27:30) Post War Life and Misc. Info �-Later in Calvin College joined the Veterans Choir. -Living conditions on the Islands were terrible. -Ate rations, not cooked food. -Received letters from his family at Philippines. (00:30:00) -Sold books after graduating from Calvin. -Worked for Hekman Biscuit Company in Grand Rapids (later became Keebler). -Then worked for a furniture company which was sold to Lazy Boy. -Photographer insisted on taking his pictures as his War experience made him well known. -After returning from Pacific, discharged from Camp Atterbury. -Not part of any other social military organizations. -Attended the Honor Flight in May 2015. -War experiences overall: -Scary and thankful it’s over. -Seeing new places, particularly poverty helps appreciate good living standard. -Speaking of native living conditions –didn’t encounter natives that he can recall. Mostly away from villages. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KloosterD1879V Title A name given to the resource Klooster, Donald (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-08-18 Description An account of the resource Donald Klooster was born and raised in Munster, Indiana. He was drafted into the Army after turning 18 in March 1943. Donald attended basic training at Camp Atterbury Indiana. Afterward he moved onto Fort Benning Georgia for jump school and was assigned to Headquarters Company, 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment. His unit would be sent to the Philippines where they trained in flight jumps on Mindoro Island, and then jumped into combat for the invasion of Corregidor Island. When all was said and done he had encountered General MacArthur, survived Japanese grenade attacks as well as a tunnel cache explosion, and finally became wounded in combat from some explosive round shrapnel. He was awarded a bronze star with the Philippines liberation ribbon and sent home in the summer of 1945 due to his wound. After being discharged in 1946 he graduated from Calvin College and worked at a furniture company. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Klooster, Donald Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jones, Adam (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a61ec092a4eecb2b954b087eaef0d49e.mp4 02f3a6711f656dab552d73cbb52b612a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/41a9a06482c5ff812bd7e968bb9f7c96.pdf b2e818ae8089004765c7f882a44588c8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Jim Kloosterman (00:26:29) (08:45) Introduction • Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan 1946. • Attended elementary school in Allendale and Coopersville High School. (09:29) Enlistment • Joined the United States Naval Reserve at seventeen years old. • During his initial check up, the doctors found a cyst that would have prevented him from joining the military. His parents paid for surgery. • During Christmas break of his senior year of high school he attended training at Great Lakes Naval Training for boot camp. (10:27) Boot Camp • Describes Boot Camp as “eye opening.” • He remembers being treated like dirt by the commanding officers. (11:48) Deployment • Began his two years of active duty the January after he graduated from high school. • He went to Norfolk, Virginia at the naval base. • He was then assigned to the aircraft carrier, USS Independence • Kloosterman worked in the communications radio division. • His ship was then deployed to Vietnam. (12:23) Why he joined the Navy • He joined the Navy to see the world. • After his deployment to Vietnam, he was then sent to the Mediterranean Sea. (12:41) Active Duty • Describes his first days of active duty as confusing. • His first choice was to work on an aircraft carrier. (13:30) Aboard the USS Independence • While on the ship, they sailed the South China Sea. • The aircraft would fly missions off of the ship. • He would communicate with other bases about missions while on the carrier. • He also worked as a cryptographer on the ship. • Flights of MIG’s attempted to attack the ship, but were turned away by the United States aircraft. • Several planes were lost during his time in Vietnam. • His ship was awarded the Navy Unit Commendation for Merit us Service. • He communicated with his family mainly through letters. • Describes the food as fairly good. • To entertain themselves, the men would play cards, read, or write letters. • He would try to sight see as much as possible when on leave. �Remembers taking a new man to the mess hall and vomiting when he saw the men take a bite out of a cooked cockroach. • The men would pull minor pranks, such as setting watches ahead to wake men up earlier than they needed to, to help curb the boredom. (20:48) Photographs (21:24) Opinion of others he served with • Most of his officers were decent people. • He liked most of the men he served with. (21:53) Discharge • Stationed in the Mediterranean. • He was transferred from one base to another before flying back to the United States. (22:18) Life After Service • The first few days were like a vacation in order to become re acclimated to civilian life • Worked at Bell Telephone Co. after returning home. • Remains very good friends with a couple of men he served with. • He joined the VFW. • He is still working in communications to this day. • Describes his military experience as an overall positive experience. • He also feels that his military experience made him grow up and mature quickly. • � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KloostermanJ Title A name given to the resource Kloosterman, Jim (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kloosterman, Jim Description An account of the resource Jim Kloosterman served in the US Navy in 1965 and 1966. He served as a radioman on the carrier USS Independence, spending much of his time decrypting Soviet radio traffic. During his tour, his ship saw action off the coast of Vietnam, and then served in the Mediterranean. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-02-01 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26d01b52dc93c1ede03af442eb9b194f.m4v 5376e47b68d39280d8f44548c5031923 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0c3c45d4403629824954a5649f9c12f4.pdf 292e19f0e51fbf84a5d2205d6cbf0db7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Terry Knapp (01:00:03)  Background (00:00)  Born in Carson City Hospital (01:00)  Father was a farmer (02:00)  His parents went into baking (03:15)  He had one brother and two sisters (03:30)  He played hide and seek as a child (05:20)  He played football and ran track in high school (06:00)  After graduating high school he worked on a line at Oldsmobile for about six weeks (11:30)  Lived in Lansing (11:45)  Got married and moved back to the bakery (11:50)  Dad died in 1975 (12:45)  Military Experience (14:00)  Went to Fort Leonard Wood Missouri for basic training (14:35)  Fort Polk Louisiana for advanced training (14:40)  Married on April 27, 1967 (16:45)  Description of Vietnam: hot, smelled like rotten vegetation, there were leeches and the troops had to take quinine tablets at every meal to avoid malaria (17:30)  During the Tet offensive, there were firefights nearly every other day (19:30)  Worked with Vietnamese during the day and fought them during the night (19:45)  Had to watch out for traps and ambushes (19:55) � He witnessed some individuals killed or wounded by traps (20:10)  Sometimes they were overrun and had to fight hand to hand combat (20:20)  He was offered the Purple Heart (22:30)  They would set up sentries around their perimeter to spot enemy patrols closing in on them (23:10)  Three APCs that he rode on were destroyed or damaged while he was in Vietnam (24:30)  They had to wait for clearance, to determine no friendlies were in the area, before they could spray it (24:55)  He was in charge of the radio on the command track, and he had to communicate with the CO and other officers (26:00)  His unit suffered a lot of casualties (26:40)  When he first arrived in Vietnam the 11th Cavalry had a n entire troop wiped out (27:00)  He was a replacement (27:10)  Blaine Landers was killed after taking over his patrol (27:50)  That same night his unit lost six APCs to RPG fire (28:10)  They would normally set up trip flares and claymores around their position (29:00)  They would fight the Chinese that crossed over into Vietnam (29:40)  Long Distance Recon Patrol wore black beret and worked with Green beret units (30:50)  He was in a unit with tank and APC support (31:40)  He got out of the army in 1968 (35:20)  His unit once pursued a fleeing enemy unit but had to turn around because they had crossed into Cambodia (36:00)  He was mostly out in the field except for about a month at base camp re-arming (38:00)  Flew to Hawaii on R&R (38:50)  He had two children, one son and one daughter who died at the age of thirty one from breast cancer, but was survived by two children (39:40) � He was in Vietnam during Tet (40:40)  He will never forget his experience in Vietnam (41:30)  He suffered from post traumatic stress, a lot of soldiers did after fighting the war (45:20)  He had flash backs and still does occasionally (46:56)  His unit would pick up dead Vietnamese and return the bodies to their villages to be buried (49:10)  In his opinion he did his duty and did it well (51:05)  After the war he returned to work at his family bakery (51:27) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KnappT Title A name given to the resource Knapp, Terry (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knapp, Terry Description An account of the resource Terry Knapp joined the army in 1967. He served in Vietnam with the 11th Calvary. His unit served during the Tet Offensive and suffered heavy casualties. He received a purple heart and was discharged at the end of 1968. After the war he returned to work at his family bakery in Lansing, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-12-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b7081e6309993e6a0c3393468ee2f02.pdf 449f10165c59d9cb1e309aee80c6dd9c PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Stuart Knappen Interviewed on October 23, 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #42 (1:10:47) Biographical Information Mrs. Stuart Knappen was born Claire L. Vesey in Memphis, Tennessee on 27 October 1880. She was the daughter of Marcellus Lauderdale Vesey and Kate Shropshire. Claire was first married to George H. Walker in Boston, Massachusetts on 12 August 1905. Evidently either George died or they divorced and Claire married as her second husband Stuart Knappen on 12 January 1916 in Chicago, Illinois. Mrs. Knappen died at the age of 102 years in Grand Rapids on 4 November 1982 and is buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Stuart Edwin Knappen was born in Hastings, Michigan on 30 August 1877, the son of Loyal Edwin Knappen and Amelia Isabel Kenyon. Stuart was first married to Edna B. Pilcher about 1901 and they had a son Alvin and two daughters, Polly and Jane. Edna died at the Knappen home at 330 Washington Street on 3 February 1913 and is buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Stuart married Claire and they resided at 322 Fountain Street. Stuart died at his home 14 April 1938 and is also buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: I‟m recording this interview at the residence of Mrs. Stuart Knappen. Her residence is located in the old Albert Stickley house which is located at Sixty Prospect, North-east. It was built before the turn of the century by Albert Stickley, one of the famous furniture men of his day and was occupied by the Stickley family into the nineteen twenties. At some point a, either in the nineteen thirties or nineteen forties this house was converted into apartments. Mrs. Knappen‟s apartment is on the second floor and is a very lovely apartment and you can see the traces of the old, this beautiful framework, on the, on the walls in this room. Was this a, perhaps a bedroom? Knappen: No, it, it was Mrs. Stickley‟s living room. And a, back there was… Interviewer: It was an upstairs sitting room or living room. Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: Well we‟ll start, we‟ll start by a, I should let the listener know that Mrs. Knappen is perhaps the oldest person we‟ve ever interviewed, or almost at least, and she will be celebrating her ninety-fourth birthday the day after tomorrow. This is the twenty-third of October so she‟ll be ninety-four on the twenty-seventh. Alright. �2 Knappen: Sunday. Interviewer: It‟ll be Sunday, I see alright now, Mrs. Knappen, why don‟t you start out by telling us where you were born, what was your maiden name, and tell us about your family background. Knappen: Well, I was born in eighteen eighty in Memphis, Tennessee. And my father was Judge M. L. Vesey. V like Victor. V-E-S-E-Y. And he was judge of the Chancery Court, in Memphis. Interviewer: Had, had the Vesey family lived in Memphis for a long time? Knappen: The Vesey family originally came from England and they were in New York, he was a minister at the church right at the head of Wall Street where he‟s buried now. Interviewer: That was the first Vesey. Knappen: Yes, the first Vesey. Interviewer: Isn‟t that Trinity Church, I think? Knappen: Trinity Church. And he‟s buried in the yard there. Interviewer: And your family eventually moved south then? Knappen: They eventually moved south. My father, before the war you know, he moved to Memphis and he lived there with his first wife who was killed during that war, you know what war. Interviewer: The Civil War. Yeah. Knappen: Civil War and a, she died then and he married my mother who was twenty or thirty years younger than he was, and a… Interviewer: Where was she from? Knappen: From England. She was English. And her grandfather was the Lord-Mayor of London. Interviewer: And what was your mother‟s maiden name? Knappen: Shropshire. Interviewer: Shropshire? Knappen: S-H-R-O-P-S-H-I-R-E. And her father owned a line of Steam-boats and we were next door neighbors to Robert E. Lee, you know. Interviewer: I see, when they lived in Virginia, I take it. �3 Knappen: Yes, Robert E. Lee lived in Memphis. Interviewer: Oh I, I didn‟t know that. Knappen: Yes, he lived next door to where our house is backed up together. Interviewer: I always assumed he lived in Virginia, for most of his life, but, I‟m obviously incorrect. Knappen: No, Robert E. Lee lived right there in Memphis. And he had a daughter Royene(?) Lee and another one Ora Lee(?) and the steamboats were named for those girls, as well as the boys. And a… Interviewer: Did you have brothers and sisters? Knappen: There were four of us. Two boys and two girls. Interviewer: And these were all by your father‟s second marriage. Knappen: Second marriage. And my youngest brother, I have a picture of him right here, he was very successful. And he was in the Piano business like what‟s his name, ya, you know.. Interviewer: I can‟t think myself. Piano business in Grand Rapids. Knappen: Yes. Well, down there on Monroe it was… Interviewer: You mean it was a retail piano business. Knappen: Yeah. He sold Steinways and all kinds of musical instruments. Interviewer: Would that be like Old Grinnell Brothers downtown or,… Knappen: Same thing, that‟s what I was trying to think of. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: That kind of business. And he died a couple of years ago at Christmas. He fell, in the bath, slipped in the bathroom tub and died. Interviewer: Were you the youngest? Knappen: I was the youngest girl. There was my brother Walter, then my sister May D. M-A-Y capital D. And then I came along and then John. And Walter was the sweetest, kindest, best person in the world. But he never could make a go of anything. He, and a, can you shut that off a minute, I want to… �4 Interviewer: Sure. Knappen: Well, I went to, I never went to public schools. I went to Miss Conway‟s Institute in Memphis and then I went to a Southern college, private college in Bowling Green, Kentucky. Girls didn‟t, Southern girls didn‟t go East to school in my day. They went to some local college, like right in Kentucky, few miles from Memphis, you know, and my brothers went to military school, Colburn and so forth and my sister went the same as I did. Interviewer: I see. I‟ve always heard that Memphis was quite a social place, especially many years ago. Do you have any special memories about that? Knappen: Yes, I got, I was elected the most beautiful girl in Tennessee! Interviewer: Well… Knappen: By popular subscription but you know, the prize was to lead the Cotillion at the boy‟s social club. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: …was “the” club of Memphis. And a, just very funny these were two girls that, a, Helen Whiteside of Nashville, and, I mean of Chattanooga, and I, we ran neck and neck up „til the last week or so. But I won… Interviewer: How did they select the beauty queen in those days? Knappen: By subscribing to the newspaper. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: With a subscription to the paper you‟d get so many votes. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: And in the Nashville, a, Chattanooga paper against the Memphis paper. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: And I, these sound so silly, my family felt they were disgraced when I tried on this silver slipper at the downtown shoe store, the one that fit three, size three, and I had little feet. And I went in and tried it on and won it. And the family was, when it came out in the paper that I‟d won the Cinderella slipper, they felt they were disgraced. It was so funny you know and what difference did it make? We young girls thought it was so funny but our families didn‟t this so. And, well let‟s see, I can‟t think of anything very exciting. �5 Interviewer: Well I take it you have a very pleasant a… Knappen: Oh yeah... Interviewer: …time in those days. Knappen: I certainly did. I had more attention than any girl you ever heard of up there in your life. Interviewer: Have you ever been back, I mean in recent years? Knappen: Oh, I‟ve gone back and when I married Stuart I was engaged to seven men. Interviewer: My heavens. Knappen: Ya, and I had, the boys down south used to give you a lot of jewelry and I had thirteen rings. Interviewer: My heavens. Knappen: I had the most gorgeous pink pearl and I had all kinds of marquis and emerald cuts and everything you ever heard of. And I had so much jewelry that it was, I didn‟t hold it very dear. I remember giving a girl a sapphire diamond ring to make a blouse for me in a hurry. Interviewer: I see. Did you have to return the jewelry that the boys had given you? Knappen: No. Interviewer: It wasn‟t considered necessary. Knappen: Well I got mad at one lad and threw all is jewelry in the wastebasket but he wouldn‟t take it out. And, but oh, oh I don‟t know, we just all girls had fun(?). And the main thing we used to do was to get a crowd together on our bicycles and ride out to the little town nearby where they had a beautiful dance hall. And well, and we had Cotillions and all kinds of things going constantly, but the most fun was when it snowed once. And we didn‟t have any sleds., One of the boys got a bath tub and he fixed seats across it and we slid in that, two and four and three couples… Interviewer: I see. Knappen: …two and three and four couples in the bathtub, sliding down the hills. And streetcars in my day you know would stop at your front door and they‟d get to know you and you would say stop at my house I want to get off or it‟s stop at my grandfather‟s and you don‟t have to tell ‟em who your grandfather is, they know, by then. Interviewer: How big a town was Memphis in those days? �6 Knappen: Oh it was, we thought it was an awfully big city. And it had a lot of skyscrapers and the one club that my father belonged to was up, way up on a building into the top floor of this building and it had a bar that turned and it would gradually turn all the time and sometimes you‟d see the Mississippi River and sometimes you‟d, you wouldn‟t see it, you know. And we thought that was… Interviewer: That must have been a first. I was out in San Francisco over a week ago and I was in an entire restaurant that revolved on the top of a hotel. Knappen: Well it, it was a club. Interviewer: About, would that be about the turn of the century? Or.. Knappen: No, this was when I was in my twenties. Interviewer: Well, a little after then… Knappen: Well that was, yes, yes. Interviewer: Yeah. Knappen: It wasn‟t too long afterwards. Interviewer: Was Memphis a pretty prosperous town in those days? Knappen: Yes. And when, I remember when my father reached ninety, he lived to be ninetynine, and when he was ninety all the courts in Tennessee convened and they had a Judge Vesey day. And so when they presented him with a gold handled cane and umbrella. And he accepted the umbrella but he told them they ought to give the cane to an old man. And he was ninety on that day. Interviewer: About what year was that? Knappen: Well I don‟t know, he‟s been dead, he was so much older than my mother. Interviewer: Yes, yes. Knappen: I don‟t know. I tell ya, I don‟t know what year it was. But it was after I married Stuart. Interviewer: Oh really? Well that would take it back to maybe… Knappen: I married him in nineteen sixteen and I know that Dad, he must have been … well, about forty years ago. �7 Interviewer: Um huh. So let‟s take that and see if my arithmetic‟s any good. Oh well, I‟m not really that good, he must have been born perhaps right about eighteen thirty or there about. Knappen: Well he was, he went to the Civil war. Interviewer: Yes. thirty years or eighteen forty or somewhere in there any ways. Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: Well, now did you do any traveling as a young person? I mean outside of the South? Knappen: Yes, I went to Europe. Interviewer: Uh huh. Knappen: Just once. Interviewer: Just once? Knappen: Uh huh. Before it was many times after I met Stuart, we traveled a lot. Interviewer: How did you happen to meet Mr. Knappen? Knappen: I came up here to visit Ethel Campau. Interviewer: I see. Was she from, where, how did you happen to know her? Knappen: Well her mother and my mother were sisters. Interviewer: I see, I see. Knappen: And she invited me up here to visit her and we went to Mrs. Waters‟ for a party and Stuart was there. Interviewer: Now who was Ethel Campau‟s husband? Knappen: Denny Campau. Interviewer: Denny Campau. Dennis I presume. Knappen: Yes. Denny Campau and his father, his grandfather was the Campau that came up the river and discovered Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Well he‟s probably a great uncle because I don‟t think Louis Campau had and direct descendents. �8 Knappen: Well… Interviewer: But he had brothers who did. Knappen: Well they must have been his brother‟s. Interviewer: Would he, would he have been an uncle or cousin or Tony Campau Knappen: They were brothers. Interviewer: They were brothers. I see. Well now I can figure that out. Knappen: Yeah. Interviewer: A, so you came up here in about what year to visit a, Ethel? Knappen: I came up here, now you know I never paid any attention to dates. Interviewer: Well. Knappen: Well, a, well it was two years before I married him, still. Interviewer: Did you meet Mr. Knappen when you made your first trip up here, or..? Knappen: Yes, when I came here on a visit. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: A, as I said at that party at Miss Waters and I came back over here several times and by then I was living in Chicago. I had an apartment that was owned by Welch‟s Grape Juice people and it was an awfully nice. It had a velvet swing in the living room that looked out over the lake. And Stuart, I would sit out, Stuart, it was so romantic with that swing you know. And it was fine but then, the night before we were to be married, I changed my mind, and told him I wouldn‟t marry him. And his mother and father and sister Florence, had all arrived in Chicago. And I said I wouldn‟t marry him and Stuart took the night train over to Chicago and talked me back into it. And I remember saying “Oh I can‟t get married now.” And Ethel Campau said “Well you have to because, I‟ve got to live in that town.” Interviewer: Were you married in Chicago? Knappen: Yes, married and I‟ve got a picture of the church. But I didn‟t tell my family that I was getting married. My father came flying up there and took me home, wouldn‟t let me be married and he said I‟d better wait and think it over. And I did, for twenty-four hours. And I don‟t think his mother and father ever knew that I had changed my mind. �9 Interviewer: I see. Well now then you came right back to Grand Rapids after you were married or did you go on a honeymoon at that point? Knappen: …(?) Stuart never forgave me, I don‟t think I had the honeymoon I took him down South to the school where my son, but oh I… Interviewer: Mrs. Knappen, when you moved to Grand Rapids in nineteen sixteen, after your marriage and honeymoon, where did you first live? Knappen: Fountain Street. Interviewer: The house that I know? Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: Between Lafayette and Prospect. Knappen: And now I just came around the corner here. Interviewer: You really haven‟t strayed very far. Knappen: No, I haven‟t. And well that place looks so awful now, on Fountain that I make a point never to go near it, where I have to see it. You know, we kept it up so beautifully inside and out and the outside never was anything special, but only it was neat and well cared for. And we had a beautiful flower garden and fountain and things like that formal rose garden. I belonged to the garden club here, and I was selected to go to New York to World‟s Fair and do a flower arrangement. Which I did, and I got a prize. Interviewer: Was that nineteen thirty-nine I can‟t remember for sure myself. Knappen: I don‟t know, as I tell you, I don‟t know but I went there and did an arrangement all white and Elna Cornelius followed me there the day after I did it and she thought it was very beautiful and it was. If I do say it is, you know. But it was. Interviewer: Can you tell me, do you know who built that house? Knappen: On Fountain? Interviewer: Yes Knappen: The Crosby‟s I think, Jim Crosby. Interviewer: Well, do you mean Mr. and Mrs. James Crosby, Senior? Knappen: Yes �10 Interviewer: I see. So that house must have been built before the turn of the century? Knappen: Oh I think it was. And the Clements lived right across the street from us. That brick house. Interviewer: The Uhl house? Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: Who were the neighbors that you were closest to up in this part of town? Knappen: Well, all of them. Everybody around here knew everybody else. The Dickenson‟s next door, your family, the Judson‟s next doors to them and the Stevens, and then these two square blocks we knew everybody in every house. They were… knew them well. And then the second house… Who lived in the second house on Lafayette catty-corner across from you? Interviewer: The second house? Knappen: The first house was… Interviewer: Campbells? You mean catty-corner from us? Knappen: Yes Interviewer: Well, that was the Wylie house originally. Well not originally but it was for many years. Knappen: The Wylie house. Then next door to the Wylie‟s was… Interviewer: Well, your house? On Fountain… Knappen: Yeah, on Fountain, but I mean on Lafayette. Interviewer: Didn‟t Curtis Wylie build a house right next to the old Wylie house? That Percy Owens eventually lived in? Knappen: Yeah. Interviewer: That‟s the house you are thinking of? Knappen: No the one next to that. Interviewer: Then that was the Holt‟s? John C. Holt‟s Knappen: Yes, the Holts and then the Fullers and the O‟Briens across the street, the Stevens and that funny old man, Mr. Shelby. I‟ll never forget one time in a movie he sat down next to me and �11 he didn‟t know who I was and he started patting my knee, and I reached over and caught hold of him and I said “Hello Mr. Shelby.” And he straightened up and he stopped patting my knees then about that time Interviewer: Did you have any trouble getting used to Grand Rapids? Knappen: Yes, I visited and knew about everybody but then I felt Stuart was trying to freeze me to death the first night I spent in Grand Rapids. It was January you know, and when he opened this great big double window and the snowflakes flew in on me I thought, „What on earth is this man doing to me?‟ It was so cold. And down South we didn‟t have any snow and we didn‟t have any really cold weather. We had one snow, the one I told you about with the bath tub. But I thought the weather up here was just awful. I thought, „How would anyone in their right mind live in this climate?‟ But you know I got so I liked everything about it, especially the fishing. Stuart and I, the first time we took a trip, I thought we‟d be going to Europe and I went down, got all the literature and I found out we were going to fish - fishing. That was funny and it‟s the truth. We rode through the country side, every time we‟d pass a bridge with a little water under it we got out and made camp and fished. Oh I thought it was so terrible. But you know we finally built our own camp and I used to go in the stream twice a day. Interviewer: Where was it? Knappen: It was in Middle Branch as you turned off of Kennedy‟s Corners going up to the Indian Club before you get to Baldwin. We had big iron gates up there. You go in and you have a little drive up to our camp. And we had a deluxe camp, with two men, one white and one black, and a Negro woman cook and when we had guests she‟d meet them at the door with a little tin cup and it‟d say: „Would you give me a donation for the church?‟ And the church donations went into her pocket. We had to give her fits about asking our guests for money before they got their suitcases. Interviewer: You say it was Little Branch River? Knappen: Yes Middle Branch. It‟s a part of the Pere Marquette. We built right on the river where you could look upstream and downstream. The whole front of the place was glass and the whole back. And our living room up there was forty feet and we had heat and had a bar in the basement. Stuart bought a bar from a firm that was going out of business soon. And he even got the brass rail and the spittoons that went into it; and he and his fisherman friends used to have a lot of fun down there. Interviewer: Judging from your description of it so far I take it, it was rather a large [cabin] and did you very often have house guests? Knappen: Oh yes, we could sleep twenty people and we had an upstairs which we never used. From the front it was a one story camp but from the river side it was three stories. The basement you see it was built on a slant. And the bar was in that basement. And then we had this great big living room then, it was paneled with solid wormy chestnut, whatever that was. And we had four bedrooms and three baths on the main floor and in the basement we had that… Isaac was the �12 white man that we had and he would have ice, his refrigerator turned on and ice made every weekend ready for us. And we had a garage for our guests and our own cars. It really was a lovely, lovely place and the pictures, you‟d think it was a hotel in New York but if you got very close you‟d find it wasn‟t at all. Interviewer: How many years did you have it? Knappen: Well we must have had it ten years. Interviewer: Until the late twenties or into the thirties? Knappen: Yes, well Stuart died in thirty-eight and the last time we were there was thirty-seven. I never went back afterwards. Interviewer: Did you have neighbors that you knew nearby? Knappen: Oh, Ed Johnson‟s. They‟re right across the stream around the bend so you couldn‟t see them. But Stuart had a little bridge built there and Ed and Stuart had a telephone line that went nowhere except to each other. And they had a lot of fun; they‟d ring the thing and then say New York‟s calling Mr. Johnson, or Mr. Knappen. And we used to all meet at that bridge in the afternoon to go swimming. And once, Jack McCray was a guest up there when a little garden snake jumped off the bank and into the stream and he shrieked! You‟d thought it was a woman and a mouse. He was so frightened. You know he‟s still living. Interviewer: Somewhere in British Colombia or out in that part of the world isn‟t it? Knappen: Yeah, I‟ve been writing to him for thirty years because he was so nice to Stuart and Jane. He was a funny little fellow. But all these lovely, big men, friends of ours have died and that little tiny thing is still going. Everybody feels so sorry for me because I have to write him. I started it, now I‟ve been writing him for thirty years. Every time I get a lette rout I think now maybe he‟s died, but he hasn‟t. He‟s going strong. Interviewer: Well I know that he came from a family with legal background. His father was Judge Loyal E. Knappen and there may have been other lawyers in the family that I don‟t know about. Knappen: His father was Judge Loyal E. Knappen, was a Court of Appeals and I know he went to Cincinnati twice a month, I mean for two weeks out of each month and when Judge Dennison died Stuart was offered that Court of Appeals position but he couldn‟t afford to take it you know. It only paid something like twelve thousand dollars in those days and we had an expensive family you know. Three girls all in school at one time for instance. And then when Father Knappen died they offered it to Stuart again although they had increased the salary he still couldn‟t take it. But another thing, he didn‟t want to be away from home two weeks out [of every month, we had to go fishing together. He couldn‟t go away for two weeks out of every month in the summer. But he was a president of the Michigan Bar at the time he died. And of course he was president of the Grand Rapids Bar first. And he represented all the, most of the railroads �13 and big concerns like Simmons Hardware and oh I don‟t know. At the time he died I got him these memorials I guess you‟d call them. And some of them were suede, done in suede and some in just paper-back. They‟re very nice. Interviewer: Who were some of his law partners? Knappen: It was Knappen, Uhl, Bryant, and Snow and Upham. And when Stuart died Mr. Snow died shortly afterwards and then it, the firm was Uhl, Bryant and Upham, and somebody else now. Upham and young Bryant Dick Bryant,I don‟t know many others. Interviewer: Were some of these men close friends of Mr. Knappen, in addition to being his partners? Knappen: Oh yes, Marshall Uhl and I guess they all were. Do you remember Snap Bryant? Interviewer: Oh well, I never knew him but I knew his brother and his brother‟s son and one of them I went to boarding school with, so I used to hear about my friend Steve Bryant‟s uncle Snap. But I never, I don‟t remember ever meeting him. I used to hear a lot of stories about him. Knappen: Oh yeah, well this one time Stuart was so mad at him, he was in some other state and he wanted to charge some gasoline to himself and they wouldn‟t charge it to him and he said he was gonna have him put out of business. And the gasoline people called Stuart up and they were quite provoked and Stuart had to explain to them that he had no authority. Oh, I want to tell you something funny though. You know this chauffer of ours, Shakespeare? Well he, they were Negroes of course and he had a brother Beethoven and another one Mathelius. So now Beethoven worked at the Pantlind and he gambled and won some money but he couldn‟t get off his job to collect so he had Shakespeare to go collect it for him. And while he was collecting, the place was raided and so they were arrested. And when they came up for trial, the judge asked their names and when Shakespeare gave his name, Shakespeare and Beethoven, the judge said, “Now you little smarties, I‟ll make an example out of you two young men.” And Stuart had to go over to court and tell that they were their real names. The judge thought that they were just being little smart aleks. I thought it was awfully funny. I was kind of wishing that Shakespeare‟d get arrested, really arrested and stay in because he was so proud of that name and I asked him how did they, the boys get those names? Mathelius and Beethoven and Roosevelt and he said well his old Uncle lived with the family, he didn‟t work and he just sat around and named the children when they came. I thought it was kind of cute. Interviewer: What do you know about the Sam Young family? Seems to me they were quite an interesting family in this neighborhood. Knappen: Yes. They lived across the street from us. And Lola, did you ever know Lola? Interviewer: Yes, I remember Mrs. Young. Knappen: Well she was a character. And old Sam Young couldn‟t talk without spitting you know. He sprayed you every time. They were nice enough. �14 Interviewer: Well I always liked Elvira. Knappen: Oh Elvira, I still like Elvira. She has this little retarded child and at first they wouldn‟t put her anywhere but they have now. She‟s grown up. They‟ve put her in an institution. Alice and John Doban(?) were kind of funny, weren‟t they? Lola wore such peculiar clothes and we all like Lola but we could never laugh at her because she would wear these funny, very fancy shoes and we were all wearing high heels in those days and she was wearing flats, you know. Interviewer: Did both Mrs. and Mr. Young come from the South originally? Knappen: Yes, they came from… I don‟t know where. Interviewer: I think it was North Carolina wasn‟t it? Knappen: I think it was one of the Carolina‟s. Interviewer: Seems to me they had quite a staff over there. Knappen: Yes. Well we had Betsy and Shakespeare and do you remember the Negro man down at the Union Depot in those days? Everybody knew him. That nice old Negro man? Interviewer: I‟m not sure I can, I know which one you‟re talking about. Knappen: Yes, well we had his daughter for the second, her name was Bea, she said it was Beatriz. We just called her Bea. She was the second maid, upstairs maid. And we had three regular servants and Grace Brown came two or three days a week to clean and do laundry. Oh, and I want to tell you what a smart woman I was. I never counted the laundry in and out you know, I paid no attention. And before we got, Betsy that maid we had for twenty odd years, this woman we had was having her whole family and her boyfriend‟s laundry done on my time. You know, Stuart‟s shirts went to the laundry and so did her boyfriend‟s. And once on her day out, the laundry came in and that‟s how I discovered it. Down South you can walk out your kitchen any time and find a couple of colored people sitting there. They just come for a meal, they think it‟s their right, you know. And no questions asked. A cook down there that my mother had, used to play the numbers, and every time I‟d go down to Memphis she‟d get me to play the numbers with her. Do you know what that is? I didn‟t know, I‟d never heard of it before. Interviewer: Do you hear from Mrs. Butterfield from time to time? Knappen: Yes, she lives in some little town, Waverly, Tennessee. And yes she sent me a glass of jelly, the other day and said that I liked it so much. I never heard of it before, but she had me mixed up with a couple of other people. But I didn‟t tell her that. She, I think, oh her mother has died? Interviewer: Yes, she died last summer. There‟s some talk that she might come back to Grand Rapids. �15 Knappen: I know it and I hope she does. Somebody said that she was coming back. Interviewer: It‟s quite interesting that over the years, that especially years ago there were quite a few people came up here from the South or married people from the South. Doctor Van was from the south and Dr. William Wilson down the street. And seems there was quite a group of people here at one point. Knappen: I remember we gave a party for the Wilson‟s when they were first married. And she said at the table that night, she met him when they were in the service. And she said when I was introduced him said “I didn‟t know that he was “the” Mr. “the” Dr. Wilson.” Then Jack McCray said: “What did you mean „the‟ Dr. Wilson?” I could have killed him. Because you know as far as we knew he wasn‟t “the” Dr. Wilson, but a very nice man. I used to go across the street and play bridge with them this last, a year ago. I was going to say before he died, well naturally. Interviewer: Did you know that Elizabeth Stuart Minor and her husband have moved, bought Mrs. McCleod‟s house across the street? Knappen: Yes, they‟re going to have a meeting there on Monday, and my daughter Betty told me about it. They‟ve done quite a bit to that house. You saw the building going on? Interviewer: Well, my sister when she was here about three weeks ago, we went over to see her, and because she and Helen are very close friends. She was naturally interested that Elizabeth had come back to the neighborhood where she got started. Now you, when you did your entertaining, did you do most of it at home or did you go out to other clubs? Knappen: Here you mean or down south? Interviewer: No, in Grand Rapids. Knappen: Oh we did at home, we entertained for the (?) at the country club mostly but there are tea dances and things like that, but no, we used to have as many as seventy people at the house. And we used to have these saw horses with the planks on them put up and tablecloths or and one time I remember we were having this party for around seventy people and the first course was oysters „down the hatch.‟ But we served so many drinks before hand, they forgot to serve the oysters. So the next morning the back porch was just covered with oysters „down the hatch‟ and that was funny. Interviewer: Who were some of the other people that you knew well in those days. Knappen: Up here? INTERVIEWER: Well not necessarily in this neighborhood but around the city here. Knappen: Well I think we knew just about everybody. I can‟t think of anybody we didn‟t know, our age people. The Stevens‟, the Lockwood‟s, the Everett‟s and the Guyhouses(?), nobody �16 wanted to sit by her and I‟d always put her next to Stuart and Stuart would get so he‟d go to the dining room and look around to see where he was. And he‟d change his place and put Guyhouse next to me. We had a lot of fun over that. Interviewer: You must have known the Booth family pretty well. Knappen: The Booth‟s, oh yes and let me see, and trying to think, Dee, Ella?, that family? Interviewer: The Hazeltine girls? Knappen: Yes, the Hazeltine girls. And of course everybody in this neighborhood, we called it Knob Hill in those days. We all knew each other so well, in every house. There wasn‟t a house that we didn‟t know, the Dickinson‟s, and then well we didn‟t know Mr. and Mrs. Stickley so well but Florence we did. And then the Cur and the Hudson‟s and the Curtis‟, different ones, and the Butterfield‟s lived next door here. And the minister Dean Higgins. And the Blodgett‟s used to live in that corner house. Interviewer: Was that Delos Blodgett‟s or the Jack, or the John Blodgett‟s? Knappen: The John Blodgett‟s lived there in that kind of funny stone house. And then were you old enough to go to the party they had out at the new home when the boy was, his bride, the party was given for his bride? Interviewer: That was the first marriage? No I wasn‟t, I wasn‟t old enough but I remember hearing about it later, in later years but I didn‟t go to it. Knappen: I didn‟t know whether you were old enough or not. Interviewer: No there‟s about at least twenty years difference in our ages so. Knappen: Yes, but that was quite a party. I remember a party that Mr. Jack gave out on the lake you know. And he had the whole front yard, every bush and tree had blooms and the lawn, had little tables on the lawn. Interviewer: That‟s Reed‟s Lake? Knappen: Yes, that home on that was such a pretty looking party you know. Interviewer: Not quite apart from your social life and I know there was a great deal of it in this neighborhood in those days, I am old enough to remember… Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: …Did you have some other special interests in Grand Rapids? �17 Knappen: I belonged to the Women‟s… well what‟s now Porter Hills? What was the name of it before? Interviewer: Oh you mean Isabella Home I think. Knappen: Yes, I belonged and Stuart used to die laughing at me because I‟d take those old women and have their hair done and all, and they loved it you know. And I also furnished entertainment for them on Sundays. And I‟d get all my friends that could do anything, sing, play the piano, to go out and entertain the ladies. And I‟d buy them shoes, instead of buying them nice, sensible shoes, I‟d get them pretty fancy shoes. And then I belonged to the Butterworth Hospital‟s Women‟s Board. I got Jack McCray to furnish the Infants Department at the hospital for me, and I got somebody else to give me a big soup kitchen for the hospital. I got all kinds of things. Mrs. Bender was the president, at the time I was on the board. We used to have a lot of fun because I‟d get so much stuff donated. Interviewer: Yes, so you remember some of the other people besides Mrs. [Charles] Bender that worked with you? Knappen: Oh yes. Well Mrs. Blodgett you know. Interviewer: You mean Mrs. Lowe? Knappen: Oh yes Mrs. [Edward] Lowe of course, not Mrs. Blodgett. I don‟t know, did she ever, Mrs. Blodgett never did any kind of work like that, never heard of it. Interviewer: Well she, I think she must have taken an interest in the Blodgett Hospital, I suppose. I don‟t know. Knappen: I don‟t know either. But Mrs. [Edward] Lowe did an awful lot. And I liked Mrs. Lowe, I thought she was a lot of fun. Interviewer: Did you go by her house quite often? Knappen: Oh yes, a great deal go out there. She used to have a lot of Sunday night parties. Interviewer: What did you do during prohibition for liquor? Knappen: Oh boy, what did we do? Well, Bill Wurzburg and a Henry Heel and Stuart and Foster Stevens were all making gin. And I drove an ambulance for the Motor Corps during the war and I‟d hear the people talking and I‟d tell on them to Stuart and the men that they were making gin and what happened to them, the police got them. I was making it up and kidding him and they took me seriously and they poured out all the hard earned gin that they and bought and made and they thought that I mean it. Bill had it all at his house and he, I never told him, they‟d have killed me. How would I know, they should have known I was joking. �18 Interviewer: Was that all you could drink was a home-made or bathtub gin whatever it was called? Knappen: Oh yes but you know father Knappen had a wonderful wine cellar and he poured it all out you know. And Stuart and Stuart‟s brother begged him to let them have it. No he said it was against the law. Just like the cook that caught the little mouse in the kitchen one hot summer day. And she had it, caught it in a trap and she, so she said to mother Knappen, “What‟ll I do with it?” And she said just take it and throw it, bury it in the back yard. Father Knappen said no, you can‟t do that, that‟s against the law to bury animals on the premises. And that hot day he wouldn‟t consider anything. But he went to the basement and built a fire in the furnace to burn up this little mouse. We always thought that was funny. He was a stickler for the law. Interviewer: Was Judge Loyal Knappen born in Grand Rapids or did he come here? Knappen: No, he and Mother Knappen both were born in Hastings. Interviewer: Raised here. And Mr. Knappen, your husband was born in Hastings then? Knappen: Yes, he was born there and he said that one cold winter day. Father Knappen‟s office in those days was upstairs over some place, and they had a stairway with an iron banister and Stuart stuck his tongue on the iron rail and it stuck to it one cold winter day and he couldn‟t get his tongue loose. And he pulled it away, took all the skin off his tongue. Interviewer: Mrs. Knappen, we traditionally think of people from the South as high-brow democrats, could I presume on your friendship to answer my question as to how you vote? Knappen: Well I‟d like to tell you something. My brother John the younger one, worked harder than anybody you ever heard of for the democrats of course and they used to say you couldn‟t get a job in Memphis unless John said so. And the last time Roosevelt ran, you know, was elected of course, my mother called me up on the phone and said, “John got Roosevelt elected again.” She thought it was all her boy‟s doing. Interviewer: Oh, the Knappen‟s were probably Republicans, were they not? Knappen: Oh yes, I just said go with Nixon and I still am mad because they treated him so badly. And I was so glad that he was pardoned. Interviewer: How do you like Mr. [Gerald] Ford? Knappen: I like him But they tell me I like everybody. But how do you like him? I won‟t tell. Interviewer: I tell this to posterity, I like him very much. Knappen: Well so do I. Interviewer: I happen to agree with him on a lot of things… �19 Knappen: I agree with him on everything. Interviewer: …but I think he‟s handled his new office very well and I think he‟s having an awful rough time right now. But I‟ve had occasion to be with him and rather closely know him over a period of years from time to time. And I know he‟s a man of great integrity and complete honesty. Knappen: I don‟t think anybody can doubt that. Interviewer: And I think he‟s much more able then we gave him credit for. I didn‟t come here to talk, you‟re supposed to do the talking. Knappen: No, no, no.But I just was so glad when he pardoned Nixon, and I don‟t care those other men were just jealous. I put it down, I really do, think they persecuted him. What I‟d like to know is why they didn‟t do something to that Edward Kennedy when he drowned that young girl. Interviewer: Well, many people will ask that question for a long time and I‟m sure that if he ever does run for president it would be a… Knappen: Well he better not. I said I was going to have them get out pamphlets and mail them to every state in the Union, because I think he was such a coward. Interviewer: Now the other question that sometimes people think people shouldn‟t discuss and I‟ll just throw it out, I gather you have an association here with the Episcopal Church? Do you remember Saint Mark‟s? And do you know the new rector there. Father Howell? You haven‟t met the new rector? Knappen: Yes, I have. When Laura Blackman died he performed the ceremony and you know now that I have difficulty in walking those steps. Interviewer: Those steps are hard to get up. Knappen: Going up is easier for me than going down, that‟s my excuse. Interviewer: Was your family an Episcopalian family in the South? Knappen: Oh yes, always. And my brother John, the one that remains. He was in the little boy choir as a singer for the time he was a little fellow. And he had a magnificent baritone voice. And he played the piano so beautifully. When he was a little boy, little tiny boy in his nightshirt he used to get out of bed and go sit at the piano and play. Interviewer: What are you going to do on your birthday? �20 Knappen: Well, now let me see. If I‟m lucky I‟ll be doing nothing. If they drag me out, Betty Knappen has gone to Oregon and she came down here, she just left yesterday. Interviewer: Who is Betty? Knappen: Betty Oakland. Betty Knappen married to Paul. Well she came yesterday and brought me a cake that I was to have for my birthday when she said if you have somebody drop in. I have never told anybody when my birthday is because I don‟t want them dropping in making work for me. And not long ago Betty and Cynthia, my grandchild, came here to see me one day and they couldn‟t get in. They knocked on the door and the telephoned and no answer and they thought I was dead. And Cynthia got to crying and she went out in the back and looked in the window, said, She hasn‟t even been to bed, she‟s probably just lying there.” I was out to the county club playing bridge. And they got the police up to break down the door but he wouldn‟t break down the door he went around the back and looked in the window and said that, the fact that everything is neat and clean doesn‟t look like she‟s dead. And he could see from the bathroom in through probably course he couldn‟t see over that but they got a ladder and put up in front and discovered I wasn‟t there. [Recording ends] Interviewer: Do you play in one of those bridge marathons? Knappen: Yes I‟m playing in that again this year. Betty Rango(?) and I won the place three years. Interviewer: Who‟s your partner now? Knappen: G.B. Vanberg(?), she‟s a good player but she plays her cards beautifully but I don‟t think, who am I to just talk about G.B., she‟s supposed to be one of the best. But I don‟t think she always bids so beautifully. Interviewer: Did you play bridge a lot when your husband was living? Knappen: Oh yes, well let me show you something. Can you open that drawer? Interviewer: Yes, here‟s a picture and I don‟t have a date on it, but it‟s a picture from the Grand Rapids Press. A yellow clipping and it shows four people playing bridge. Knappen: They are the Alexander‟s. Interviewer: Now were they from Grand Rapids? Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: I don‟t remember them. �21 Knappen: Well we didn‟t know then either. It started out with the city tournament. And there was, oh I‟ve forgotten how many couples. Interviewer: I‟m going to guess this was taken about nineteen thirty or maybe thirty-one or there abouts because the name Dykhuizen appears as the photographer and I think he was in the photography business along with a Mr. LeClear, and I don‟t think that‟s LeClear either, at about that time. Knappen: This was at the University Club, the last night of it and I just found that stuck in a book. And I used to have all kinds of bridge books, but now I don‟t look in them anymore. Well I‟ve been playing bridge for seventy years, I ought to know a little something about it. But, it changes a lot you know. But I gland through the latest book once in a while to make sure I‟m up on things, that‟s all. Interviewer: Well I think it‟s past the hour of five and I think I‟d better go home. But I must say it‟s been delightful. Knappen: Well it‟s been fun. Interviewer: I‟d sort of like to come back and start over again. Knappen: You just do that. Interviewer: Well, maybe one day we will get together again. Maybe I‟ll think of some other questions to ask you but I want to thank you very, very much for your hospitality and for telling me… Knappen: Oh my goodness, I never offered you a drink. Interviewer: Well, I don‟t think I‟ve got time. I‟ll take a look at the clock and if there is a little time I‟ll take one in a hurry, how‟s that? Knappen: Well, yes you do that. What would you drink? I usually drink scotch. I‟ve got some. Interviewer: And I‟ll close on… Knappen: … but you know what. I don‟t have any ice. Interviewer: That‟s alright, I‟ll be English. Knappen: Oh well, you be English. �22 INDEX B K Bender, Josephine · 18 Blodgett Family · 17, 18 Booth Family · 16 Bryant Family · 13 Bryant, Mr. · 1 Butterfield, Mrs. · 15, 17 Kennedy, Edward (Ted) · 11, 20 Knappen, Judge Loyal E. (Father-in-law) · 13 Knappen, Stuart (Husband) · 1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 C Lee, Robert E. · 3 Lockwood Family · 16 Lowe, Mrs. Edward · 18 Campau Family · 7, 8 Campau, Ethel · 9 Clements Family · 10 Crosby, Mr. and Mrs. James · 10 D Dennison, Judge · 13 E Everett Family · 16 F Ford, President Gerald R. · 19 G L M McCray, Jack · 12, 15, 17 Miss Conway‟s Institute · 4 O Oakland, Betty Knappen · 16, 20, 21 R Reed‟s Lake · 17 S Guyhouse Family · 16 Saint Mark‟s Episcopal Church · 20 Shelby, Mr. · 11 Snow, Mr. · 13 H U Hazeltine Family · 16 Holt Family · 11 Uhl, Marshall · 13 University Club · 22 Upham, Mr. · 13 J V Johnson, Ed · 12 Vesey, Judge Marcellus Lauderdale (Father) · 2, 3, 6, 8, 9, 13, 18 Vesey, Kate Shropshire (Mother) · 2, 6, 7, 15, 18, 19 �23 W Y Waters, Mrs. · 7, 8 Wilson, Dr. · 15 Young Family · 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e22ed5052d7dfbcc953fc194c8bc7be.mp3 3da14399df38905c3e507d3428271566 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_42Knappen Title A name given to the resource Knappen, Claire Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knappen, Claire Description An account of the resource Claire Vesey was born in 1880 in Memphis, Tennessee. She married Stuart Knappen in 1916. Stuart was part of a law firm in Grand Rapids and president of the Michigan Bar Association. Mrs. Knappen was a member of the Flower Garden Club and was on the Butterworth Hospital Women's Board. She died in 1982. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/403f8b82f3eb268e1be15d85d47d7fe6.mp4 529de23af154d2e9d46a241ccd907925 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3df6684853f99fed74927c775e12a47.pdf 642cd80816b589b7729d147ad3097134 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II - WAV Merle Knight Length of Interview: 13:38 (00:10) BS: My name is Brittany Steffans and I’ll be the interviewer and recording is Holly Strong. Mrs. Knight is 81 years old, having been born on April 14, 1923. (00:33) BS: Please state for the recording what war and branch of service you served in. What was your rank and where did you serve? MK: I took my boot camp at New York City, at Hunter College. I lived on about the sixth floor. I have to tell you something a little bit funny. I never ate breakfast, so when I got there, I wasn’t going to eat breakfast either. That’s not the way it works. You march to breakfast, whether you eat or not. Now I forgot the next question. After that, I went to Cecil Field, in Florida. And later on I went to Banana River, also in Florida. There both south of Jacksonville. BS: Umm, what war and branch of service did you serve in? MK: That was World War II and I was a Navy WAV. BS: Can you state what WAV means? (01:30) MK: Women Accepted for Voluntary Service. BS: What was your rank? MK: I ended up Seaman First Class. BS: Were you drafted or did you enlist? MK: I enlisted. BS: Why did you join? MK: Oh…they took my husband. To-be husband, was drafted. My brother was gone. Maybe I had to find myself. BS: Why did you pick the service branch you joined? MK: Navy blue. (laughs) I didn’t like the WACs color. �BS: Oh, okay. Do you have any experiences from boot camp that you remember? Or training? Other than the breakfast. (02:32) MK: Oh, we got to go into New York City and see things. I’d never been to New York before. Statue of Liberty, all those kind of things. And then before I was sent down to Florida, I got to work in the Officer’s mess hall and I thought that was kind of interesting. BS: What was your job assignment? MK: That’s what this little book is sitting here for. (Picks up hardback book.) When I went to Cecile Field, umm, I logged in pilot flight time. And every pilot had one of these. And when they came to our office, they had to tell us what plane they were taking and we had to log in what time it was. And then they took the plane, and when they come back, they had to come back to our office and log back out. And there were some that didn’t come back. And that’s how we knew. I don’t have flight time in mine, so I ended up using mine as a joke book. I have a little bit of flight time in there. I got to fly. I didn’t fly the plane. (04:04) BS: Oh. Can you tell me a couple of your most memorable experiences during the war? MK: Belonging to the Fast-Bit softball team, probably was my most fun. BS: Were you awarded any medals or salutations? MK: After playing ball, I was awarded a silver baseball. It’s hanging up there. (Points) From Admiral Kincaid. BS: How’d you get it? MK: Well, that was from playing baseball. BS: Did you stay in touch with your family while you were in Florida? MK: Writing letters. I never made phone calls. (05:01) BS: What was the food like, while you were there? MK: (shrugs) It must have been all right. I gained a few pounds. BS: Did you feel any pressure or stress while you were in the service? MK: I don’t think so. �BS: How did you entertain yourself? Other than baseball. What did you do for fun? MK: Well, I was in a room with about ten girls. And it wasn’t hard to find entertainment with ten girls back there. (laughs) You could go off base, if you had liberty. And we used to go out and run an obstacle course. BS: Do you recall anything humorous or unusual events that happened? MK: Well, I went off base once, without liberty. I got caught. And I had to clean…I cleaned the biggest linen closet you’ve ever seen. (laughs) That was my punishment. But, you know, I’ve always remembered that. (06:35) BS: Did you and your friends ever pull pranks on others? MK: On April Fool’s Day, I did. I got them all up too early. Told ‘em it was six o’clock and it was five o’clock. And…they threw me in the shower. (Laughs) BS: Can you show us what some of your photographs are here? MK: (Holds up class photo) This was taken, I think, right after we got to New York. And this one (holds up another photo or women lined up) was at Cecile Field. And it was, I think, most of those girls I roomed with, in one room. BS: How big was the room? Was it… (07:24) MK: It was big. (Looks at photo) Some of them left and went to smaller rooms, which they were allowed to do. BS: What about this one? (Hands MK a photo) MK: This was taken just when we went on liberty, in Jacksonville, Florida. We went to St. Augustine, a few other places. BS: What did you think of officers’ or your fellow soldiers? MK: Well, the only trouble I ever got into was when I went off base and I wasn’t supposed to. (laughs) BS: Do you recall the day of your service ending? (08:20) MK: Hmmm. Well, I was discharged at Miami, Florida. That’s probably all I remember. And then I got on a train. You know, we didn’t get to fly on a plane. We had to ride the train. And I guess I came home. �BS: What did you do in the days and weeks afterwards, after you were out of the service? MK: Probably went back to roller-skating. We roller-skated at North Lake. That has since burned down. And then tried to find a job. BS: Did you make any close friendships while you were in the service? MK: Yes. I still write to four or five of the girls. Of course, some of them have died. (09:24) BS: Did you join a veterans organization? MK: No, I never did that. BS: What did you go on to do as a career after the war? MK: I got married the same…a few months after I got home. My career was five kids. BS: Did your military experience influence your thinking about the war in general? (10:24) MK: This war right now. We’re both against it. BS: Do you attend any reunions? MK: No. I don’t know why…I don’t know why our outfit never got together. BS: How did your service and experience affect your life? MK: I learned discipline. Probably helped me a lot in training my kids. (11:11) BS: Is there anything you’d like to add that we didn’t cover in the interview? MK: I was thinking about this a lot before you came, but you gave me some questions there I wasn’t thinking on. (laughs) BS: So how old were you when you enlisted? MK: I was twenty-one. BS: And you weren’t married at the time, right? MK: No. �BS: Your husband was drafted, correct? MK: Yeah, he was drafted. BS: So you didn’t see each other. MK: No. We never saw each other for nearly three years. BS: Was that hard? (11:53) MK: It was probably harder on him than me, because where I was a little more fun. And no fighting. BS: So you didn’t see any combat while you were in the service? MK: No. No. BS: How long were you in? MK: I was in a year and a half. I would have stayed in longer. A bunch of us girls were going up for assignments, and we were going to take one more assignment and then we were going to go to Pearl Harbor. And then the war ended. And we would have had to stay in at least another six months. So we all gave up on that. Since then, maybe I’ve regretted that a little bit. (Laughs) (12:43) BS: So how long was it between when your husband to be was drafted and the point when you decided to enlist? MK: That was probably a year and a half. BS: So if you had the opportunity to enlist back then, would you have done it? Gone back to war. MK: Yes. I would have recommended it to most girls. Unless they have to go over there and fight, like what’s going on now. That I don’t agree with. BS: Is there anything you’d like to add that we have not covered? MK: Not that I can think of. But those were nice, fun days that I had. And I enjoyed it. BS: Thank you. (13:38) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KnightM Title A name given to the resource Knight, Merle (Interview transcript and video), 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knight, Merle Description An account of the resource Merle Knight served in the Navy WAVES during World War II. She was a volunteer who spent all her time on the East Coast of the US, primarily at a naval air station. Although she wanted to go to serve in Pearl Harbor, she would change her mind due to the war ending Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Steffens, Brittney (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Naval Reserve. Women's Reserve Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-04-12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives