434 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abf6d6cc41156f889b88021ffde02c49.mp4 cdb90822c24bfe3df5f9705e9e12172e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75afc84b994e7d7a318d863c41619c98.pdf 89911b46ff223d61d8cb35c7ac717db6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project George Jager (55:39) (00:30) Background Information • • • • • George was born in Kalamazoo, MI He moved to Imlay City, MI when he was 10 years old There were 9 kids in his family and his father worked on a farm George also worked on the farm and in a factory during the winter He was drafted in October of 1943 (02:06) Training • • • • • George was working on a farm when he heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor from the principle of his school He was sent to Fort Custer, MI and then to Camp Blanding, FL Many of the men he trained with were from the east coast They were trained to be replacements in Europe George was sent to Camp Shanks, NY to be deployed (08:50) Deployment • • • • • • • • • • • • • • He boarded the Ile De France, a troop ship convert [former luxury liner] with 8,000 men They left in April of 1944 and travelled without a convoy The ship landed at Glasgow, Scotland George went to south east London He was chosen to go to chemical warfare school In June he went back to his unit and they crossed the English Channel They landed on Omaha Beach on June 16, 10 days after D-Day George was taken to Cherbourg to join the 4th division They fought at St Lo He was considered a heavy weapons machine gunner At Mortain the Germans made a counter attack George was hit in the leg by a bullet and taken to a field hospital After he was treated he was sent back with his unit When he got back to his unit most of the men had been replaced (26:55) Germany • George went through Luxemburg and Belgium �• • • • • • • He was right next to the battle at Bastogne They went to Maastricht in the Netherlands and then up to the Hurtgen Forest in Germany On November 1, 1944 they were surrounded in the Hurtgen Forest with a lot of shelling going on George had a shell hit next to him and he coughed up blood for 3 days They were liberated by the 9th Division A doctor checked him out and he had swamp foot, so he was sent to a hospital in Belgium for 2 months After Belgium he was put on a hospital ship (31:42) Back to the US • • • • • • The hospital ship went to Boston and he mostly played games while aboard George was sent to a hospital in Durham, NC for a month He took 30 days leave and went home After his leave he went to Miami Beach, FL and was assigned to Camp Grant, IL in April, 1945 At camp grant he was assigned to be a squad leader for people coming back from Europe that were going to Japan George was discharged in December of 1945 (45:09) After Being Discharged • • • • • • • He has visited France and seen the cemeteries for soldiers When he was in Europe during the war he didn’t know what was going on in the concentration camps His faith and his girlfriend helped him through the war He got married on June 5, 1949 George lived in Grand Rapids, MI and worked for a mason Then he got his GED and went to Calvin College George started teaching after college �.lIl C f OotU ,::t•. . ," r~ :F TH[ H"aut IUtNHt),4 1l0TT(JlID",.. G7 WORLD WAR II CEM, ffi WORLD WAR I CEME .v,r- WORLD WAR I MONI ~ WORLD WAR liMON R M A N y ",08LlNl ' .....lIlIr'_. .~RG[N'AN . t • rO UG( ltn . 1t£t.lNl S o MILES 10 20 30 40 $0 60 70 80 90 100 Ed tftO·MB"ERSE3 cemetery memorials at these burial sites; controlling as to d esign and materials, providing regulations for and supervising erection of all monuments, memorials, buildings and other structures in permanent United States cemetery memorials on for eign soil; and controlling the design of U.S. private monuments 22 E3 and cooperating with American citi­ zens, states, municipalities, or asso­ ciations desiring to erect war memo­ rials outside the continental limits of the United States. It is not responsi­ ble for construction, maintenance or operation of cemeteries in the con­ tinental United States or its terri­ tories and possessions. COLMAfit • liPtNAL<:f) <: After World War I, the American Battle Monuments Commission erected a memorial chapel in each of the eight military cemeteries overseas already established by the War Department, as well as twelve monuments and two bronze tablets on the battlefields and elsewhere, to record the achievements of our Armed Forces. In 1934, the , War I overseas cemeteries transferred to the Commission l ecutive Order. The names and locations of World War I cemetery meme the number of burials and number of missing recorded at memorials are: �Hitler's Battle Against the Ten Commandments By Gary De M~r A s an unapologetic, bibliophile" , ", I am always on the lookout for long-forgotten books that contain flashes of wisdom that offer counsel for our day. While on a trip to Mi~hi­ gail, I spent the day at John K. King Used and Rare Books 'in downtown Detroit and another fun day rummag­ ing through the used book depart­ ments at Kregel Christian Books and Baker Book House in Grand Rapids. , Searching for books on-line has its advantages, but there is nothing like seeing tens ,of thousands of books you didn't know existed, apdyou've got to havel During this latest book hunt, J came across The Ten Command­ me~ts~' Te~. Sh.~~t No':eis '~j; Hitler S War Againstthe Moral Code written byRauschning in l 943'." I was shocked,at what! read in light of the present controversy overthe Ten Commandments, Just a week before finding The Ten Commandments, I had read the following from Harold O. J. Brown's book The Sensate Cul­ ture: Western Civilization Between Chaos and Transformation: , If there are no laws made in heaven, by what standards would human society organize itself? We do need.laws by.which to organize and structure our lives, but if God has not given them, where shall they come .from? There is only one an­ swer: We must make them our­ selves. Of course, if we make our own laws they will have .no more authority or force than what we our­ selves possess and can assert by means of the power at our disposal. In other words, law comes to repre­ sent not the will of the Creator but the will of the strongest creatures, This became the wide spread view, sometimes unexpressed but fre­ quently explicit, of mostWestem ' societies in the first partofthe twen­ tieth century, America's great legal statesman, Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., thought no differently in this re­ spect from the great dictator; Adolf . Hitler. Both of them believed that laws simply represent the will of dominant majority. Holmes was a courteous, urbane, sophisticated gentleman, but his idea oflaw would have offered no opposition tothe en­ actments of Hitler, wlio fora time reflected the will ,6i 'Ger~any,'s dominantmajoriry ',' : ,.Can such a comparison be made? Holmes and Hitler? Through its abor­ tion laws alone, America has killed nearly ten times the number Hitler killed. Appeals can no Ioiiger be made to a higher' law in defense of the unborn or anyone' else for that matter. To cite any of God's mandments is a violation of th'e court'scommandments. lri '1991, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court over­ turned a murderer's death sentence because the prosecutor quoted the' Bible in his closing arguments. A similar thing happened when a pros­ ecutor quoted the Bible's instructions on the death penalty for murder. A fixed law anchored in the character of God must be censored so a flexi­ ble law can replace it, a law that can be shaped and molded to fit the agenda of the new gods, whoever they may be. com­ ' , Hitler and his malleable henchmen hated God 's law. They knew that it was the only thing that stood between them and their new world order. The God of the Bible is described by Hitler as "that Asiatic tyrant." True freedom is freedom from God's law. Rauschning recounts the following ravings by Hitler while spending the . evening with him and other Nazi party loyalists at the Reich chancery: The day will come when I shall hold up against these commandFACTS PAGE 4 FEBRUARY 2004 ments the tables of a new law. And history will recognize our move­ ment as the great battle for humanity's liberation, a liberation from th~ curse ofMount Sin~i, from the dark stammerings of nomads who could no more trust their own sound instincts, who could un­ derstand the divine only in the form of a tyrant who orders one to do the very things one doesn't like, This is what we are fighting against: the . masochistic spirit of self-torment, J the curse of so-called morals, idol­ ized to protect the weak from the strong in the face of immortal law of battle, the great law of divine nature. Against the so-called ten commandments, against them we are fighting." , Sound familiar? For now, the ma­ terialists will' permit us to hang our displays ofthe Ten Co~andments in our homes and churches, but there can be no such standard forthe State. People of goodwillin Germany and beyonddid. no! believe Herman Rauschning. in 1937, and there are too many Christians today who won 't be lieve me about the Ten Command" ments battle today and wh~re it migh]:f\ lead. The courts are doing legalli~ what Hitler did through terror. ,~ ~ , least three supreme court justices, have declared that international la~ should be America's standard ofjus-, tice. tAnd what is the foundation of international law? Are Americans willing to adopt the moral world view of Europe? If Christians do not wake up, America is headed down the same dark path to destruction. BiblicalJVorld Views, December, 2003 - Dread Sovereign let my evening '~ ong like holy incenserise; Assist the offering of my tongue to reach the lofty skies. Isaac Watts � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JagerG Title A name given to the resource Jager, George (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jager, George Description An account of the resource George Jager grew up in Michigan and was drafted in 1943 and trained in Florida to be a replacement infantryman. In April of 1944 he went to England on a converted troop ship. George received chemical warfare training and then landed on Omaha Beach 10 days after D-day. He was a machine gunner and fought in battles at Normandy, Mortain, and the Hurtgen Forest. George was injured once at Mortain by a bullet and again at the Hurtganen Forest by a bomb. He was sent to a field hospital and then a back the US because of his swamp foot. He served for a short time after arriving home and then was discharged. After he was discharged he went to college and became a teacher. A map and magazine article are appended to interview outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-01-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/188f9a7602ee01a05bbc5f5ca8e53141.mp4 1d6da459297dd8842998898e47d476df https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/82815f107330c33267496c94da1c06b6.pdf b335674d7f7cfd4de3b9d992dd0262a3 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Richard Jakubczak Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Mr. Richard Jakubczak of Holland, Michigan. And the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now, can you start us off with some background on yourself. To begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. St. Mary’s Hospital, 1946, May 20th. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you grow up in Grand Rapids? Veteran: Partially. I went to Holy Name of Jesus School. And then in about the 7th grade, we moved to a little town by Ada, Michigan, called Parnell. And went to a school called St. Patrick’s until the 10th grade. And then eventually, graduated from Lowell Senior High School. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because St. Patrick’s closed their high school. Interviewer: Alright. Now, what did your family do for a living while you were growing up? Veteran: My father worked for Irwin Seating Company and my mother was a housewife. Interviewer: And how many kids were in the family? �Veteran: There was—I have—had an older brother, a younger sister, and I have a younger brother who is 17 years younger than I am. And my older brother has passed away. And he was about 15 months older than I was. So, we hung around. We did everything together. Interviewer: Alright. So, in what year did you graduate from high school? Veteran: I graduated in 1965. Interviewer: Okay. And then, what did you do once you graduated? Veteran: Well, that was the summer to play. I did have a job at a place called Lowell Engineering, when it was still located in Lowell. And besides that, it was just a summer of typical summer—what all kids are doing. After they graduate, you’re free. But you know, we used to live by a lake so we did a lot of swimming. I worked for the farmers. Threw a lot of hay bales in my time so…And just hung around. Interviewer: Okay. And did you have any plans beyond that for what you wanted to do next? (00:02:02) Veteran: I actually started at Kendall School of Design. And I went there for a year to try to get into—well, art design and that. And either the professors didn’t appeal to me or the structure that they wanted me to do didn’t appeal to me. So, I left. And once I left, I became A-1 for the draft. So, we were having some family problems about that time and I had an awful lot of arguments with my father. And after one argument, I just walked out of the house and said, “I am going to go join the Marines.” My father was in the Air Force. All his brothers, all my uncles, were in the Marines. My grandfather was in the Army. So, it was almost a tradition. But this—I was just leaving. I was going to go join the Marine Corps. And my older brother said, “No, no, don’t. We will go join the Navy. I will go join the Navy with you.” So, we both went down, saw the �recruiter, and joined the Navy. And 10 days later, we were on a 120-day delay plan. And about 10 days after we had signed up for the Navy, I got my draft notice. So, I called up and said, “Well, who has got me?” They said, “So, where do you want to go?” So, I just stayed with the Navy and went in. And when you go to boot camp at Great Lakes Naval Hospital—or Great Lakes Naval Yard, they gave you a list that you could put in and sign up for, to see what you want to do while you are in the Navy. Well, I had just passed the test for aviation. And I put that on the top of my list. And my older brother, again, said, “Corpsman! Put corpsman down. Just put it down the last—last on the list.” And little did we know, that they were drafting corpsmen at that time, just to go to replace the ones that were in Vietnam. So, we did and the next thing after graduation from boot camp, we went to corps school. Both of us. (00:04:17) Interviewer: Alright. Now, let’s…Go through the beginnings of the process. Now, did you a physical in Michigan? Or was your first physical actually done at Great Lakes? Veteran: Well, the first physical was in Detroit, Michigan. Actually, the second physical was also in Detroit, Michigan. When we got to Great Lakes, we had another physical. Interviewer: Alright. Now, at the first one—at Detroit—did you have people who had been called up for the draft and things like that there? Or…? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: During the physical, or right after the physical, was taken, we were in this large auditorium. And there was quite a few of us. And they lined us up. And they said, “1, 2, 3, 4 Marine. 1, 2, 3…” Well, we ended up being Navy anyway. So, that’s why we went to Navy bootcamp. First, they asked for volunteers. �Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then they said, “Okay, every 4th man is going to be a Marine.” Interviewer: But you were already enlisted and headed for the Navy so that— Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: --that didn’t matter for you. Veteran: But most of these were guys that had joined the Navy. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And technically, the Marine Corps is part of the Navy. Interviewer: It is? Oh, okay. Veteran: So, they had just went 1, 2, 3, 4—that’s the Marine. Interviewer: Alright. Because like I said, in other situations they have general troops and draftees who come in and then it’s Army and Marines and they do the same thing. Okay. Veteran: And— Interviewer: But this was a largely Navy group that you were— Veteran: That is correct. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I mean, most of the guys there signed up. There was very little, back in 1966, there was very little people being drafted. [Note: There was a massive draft from Michigan later in the year] Most of the ones that we were around all joined at that point. �Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now when you got down to Great Lakes, they did a physical there. Was that more thorough than what you had in Detroit? Or was it the same thing all over again? (00:06:05) Veteran: It was—if you didn’t have anything major wrong with you, you were going to pass. It was the same thing as in Detroit. It was quick. And the whole thing—that day kind of like whizzed by. You get there at 5:30 in the morning. And they say, “Well, you’re going to sleep there. Make your bunk. And you’re going to get up at reveille.” Well, by the time you made your bunk, you’re going to lay down for about 5 minutes. So, we just kind of like laid down on the mattresses and slept for about 20 minutes. And then, the rest of that day was the physical, the haircut, getting your clothes, ID cards. All of that within the first few days—or the first day, I mean. Interviewer: Alright. And what was the—kind of the daily regimen like? What were you doing from day to day in boot camp? Veteran: Well, actually I got very—myself and my brother got very lucky. On the train going to Great Lakes from Grand Rapids, or from Detroit, a guy told us—he said, “Volunteer for morning clean up.” And what that did is we got to get up earlier than everybody else, have breakfast, and come back. And then, by that time, everybody else was up getting ready to go do physical therapy—or, physical education, doing your exercises and all that, doing personal inspections and everything else while all we had to do was—we made sure all the bunks were the right way, as cleaned up as—all the clothes were folded the right way. We had to wash our own clothes and tie them on lines. We had to make sure the knots were okay. And then we joined the rest of the company for the schooling because in the Navy, most of it was very little physical and a lot of education. And—because you had to learn the ways about the Navy. And so, the only time that I �stood a personal inspection was when the whole company stood a personal inspection. I didn’t have to do it every morning. Interviewer: Alright. Now, was there a lot of emphasis placed on discipline while you were there? (00:08:17) Veteran: I think—yes, there was. More discipline, I think, than a lot of the guys were used to. Because we had people from all over and believe me, some of those guys were extremely naïve. And didn’t meet a lot of different people. I mean, we had people from New York, California, Texas, Florida. We had them from all over. And the discipline in our small company was really not that hard. It just, to me, hearing other guys talk that have gone in through the Army and the Marine Corps, the Navy bootcamp is nothing compared to what the Army and Marine Corps go through. It was very lax. We did—you had to march and do all that kind of stuff. But mostly it was learning about the Navy. About ships. And of course, that was something I had never walked on. I never set foot on a ship the 4 years I was in the Navy. So, it was an interesting time. I actually was looking forward to boot camp. We worked for farmers the last 5-10 years and got pretty well-built. And we were strong. We threw a lot of hay bales. And actually, Navy boot camp got us out of shape. Interviewer: Alright. Well, I think that’s a first. But okay. And how long did the boot camp take? Veteran: Our boot camp was 12 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. And then when you complete boot camp, what’s the next step for you? (00:10:03) �Veteran: Got orders on the last week. And that was to Corps School. And you had 2 weeks off, 15 days off, and then you had to come back and we reported to Corps School. And basically, that’s what it was. It was a school. You marched to your classes but it wasn’t like boot camp at all. It was—that was your job. You just had to do it the military way. And so, Corps School was also 12 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Now, what did they actually teach you? What specific sort of skills or things did—information—did they give you? Veteran: Basically, they taught us about the same things as an LPN, or Licensed Practical Nurse, is taught. How to work in a hospital. How to make beds the right way. The different diseases. Not so much first aid. Mostly, it was just working in a hospital. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And the different jobs that you would have to do in a hospital. They went through operating assistance all the way to emergency room assistance and just working on a ward. And we did that for a little bit too. Interviewer: But you weren’t really, at that point, getting trained to go into a combat situation and… Veteran: No. Interviewer: Accompany a Marine unit in the field, things like that? Veteran: Nothing. There was no combat. This was strictly to get you ready for the medical field in the Navy. Period. We did learn first aid. I think there was a—they spent about 3 to 5 days in �classrooms talking about it and showing you what the different wounds were. They also spent a couple days going over what the venereal diseases were. So, I mean, first aid was very little. Interviewer: Alright. What sort of people did they have teaching you at Corps School? Veteran: They were all lieutenant commanders or a little bit lower but all officers and nurses. And pretty much, it was a nurse that was in charge of the whole Corps School. And they worked at teaching us but they also spent time at Great Lakes Naval Hospital. Interviewer: Now, were the nurses men or women or both? (00:12:19) Veteran: When I was going to the Corps Schools, it was all women. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then at the point when you complete Corps School, do they then ask you—give you any choices about what your assignment might be? Or what happens at that point? Veteran: In the military, they don’t give you—they don’t ask you anymore. They just say, “This is what you’re going to do.” Unfortunately, they were—myself and my brother had an MOS of 84-04, which meant it was a field corpsman. And which also meant that you, after Corps School, you would go to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and learn the Marine Corps way of doing things. Believe me, it was a lot different than the Navy. Interviewer: Oh, I bet. Veteran: We—in February of ’60— Interviewer: 7 now? Veteran: 7, I flew down—well, we flew down to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. And we got in and their instructors were all staff sergeants or above. And they all were Vietnam veterans. Some �of them had more than one tour. And they had one goal and one goal in mind: to try to keep us alive when we have to go to Vietnam. So, they were hard on us. And they got us back in shape. I had—we had to follow a Marine who was probably 50—in his mid-50s. And he could do physical stuff that all us 19 and 20-year-olds and 18-year-olds, we could not keep up with this man for nothing in the world. And I think that always made his day, if he could get everybody just to finally get pooped out. Because he just made sure that—his goal was to get us back in shape and he really did. He got us in very good physical condition. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you get some of the sort of the boot camp experience of the people screaming at you and all of that sort of thing? Or was this just a lot more focused on the actual training? (00:14:33) Veteran: This was actually focused on the actual training. They wanted to teach us how the Marines act in the field so we could know what was going on when we were there. And how to react under fire and what to do under fire. They also had medical staff there that—they were the ones that taught us actual first aid. You know, I can recall that we were practicing lots. And they gave us different people that were supposed to be injured in different ways. The scenario was it was an atomic blast and so you had wounded people and dead all over the place. And I started working on this one who has supposedly a stomach injury. And another corpsman was helping me when the instructor came up and he said, “Why are you working on this guy? Is he seriously hurt?” He said, “In a time of war, you leave him be and find the ones that are least injured, to get them back on the firing line.” That, for me, was one of the hardest things to try to adapt to. The ones that are hurt the worst are the ones that you want to help the most because a lot of those guys were going to die because they had to wait for you to take care of somebody who wasn’t �going to die but could still fight. So, that was one of the hardest lessons we had to learn. And even when I went to Vietnam, that was one of the hardest things we had to do. (00:16:26) Interviewer: Alright. Now, when you are in the training here, did they expect corpsmen with the Marines to carry weapons? Or was that not part of it? Veteran: Technically, according to the Geneva Convention, I was told that we were going to carry a 45, which we did. But it was not for us. It was for the protection of the wounded. That is how they got around the Geneva Convention. And I needed to use an M-16 a couple times when I was in Vietnam and there was always one on the ground. So, when I needed it, I didn’t have to carry it. They were already there. Interviewer: Did you have weapons training, beyond the 45? Veteran: We…I shot the M-16, the M-60, .50 caliber machine gun, the M-79 Blooper, which is a grenade launcher. I shot everything that I could possibly shoot just to get used to shooting it. I shot an AK-47. The Marines were very happy to let us shoot. But most of my shooting was done in Vietnam during fan fires. And at Camp Lejeune, we had an M-14 which we shot. Nice weapon, by the way. Little heavy for jungle fighting. And the 45. And I was—nobody was very good with the 45. They had to be really close for you to hit anything with the 45. The M-14 was an outstanding weapon. And I didn’t get to shoot the M-16 until we were actually in Vietnam. Interviewer: Alright. Now, how long did the Corps School last? (00:18:08) Veteran: In Camp Lejeune, it lasted 6 weeks. And most of that was learning how the Marines act in the field, how to move with the Marines and what to do under certain conditions. As an example, if you’re caught in an ambush, the whole goal is to have the suppressing fire so you’re not tied down, you’re actually going to the enemy. And that came to play because some—our �staff sergeant—sorry, I don’t remember names. I had made it a habit not to remember names and now, for the life of me, I can’t—the names I want to remember, I can’t. This staff sergeant that was our instructor taught us that when you get ambushed, you attack. So, they have this 3-day outing at the end of it before you graduate and we are a company of corpsman playing Marine. And we get ambushed by the Marines. So, we attacked. And we followed our instructor’s words to the letter and we actually pushed our attackers back into the swamp. And our staff sergeant came up and he was just angry as hell. And we couldn’t figure out why. We did what he did. He said we were supposed to die. We were not—he wanted to make an example of us and we were all supposed to die. We weren’t supposed to do what we did and I just—I was the one that spoke up because I have a big mouth. And I just says, “Sergeant, didn’t we do what you told us?” He said, “Yeah, damn it. You did.” He was a nice guy. He was a great guy. These guys were unbelievable. When we were out in the field for the training, these guys would come out of nowhere. And if I am laying in this one position, he would come up and say, “No, doc. Not there. Go to this hollow part right there. That puts you down a little lower and if they can’t see you, they can’t kill you.” And I turned around to thank him and he’s gone. I mean, these guys had one thing and one thing only: we are going to get you through Vietnam as best we can. So, we loved them. Interviewer: Okay. Now, at this point—you know, late into ’67—how much do you actually know about Vietnam and what was going on over there? (00:20:45) Veteran: That’s a very nice question. Absolutely nothing. I just knew we were going to Vietnam when…We were told in boot camp, “Don’t put down corpsman,” but we did anyway, “you’re going to go to Vietnam.” We didn’t know what Vietnam was. What’s Vietnam? And that was the �way it was all the way through. We started—you know, right about this time, we got more and more knowing that it was not a nice place to go. But by then, it was way too late. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, once you complete Corps School, what’s the next step for you? Veteran: The next step, I went back to Great Lakes Naval Hospital. I was the lucky one of the two. My brother got assigned to 3 North, which was an orthopedic ward. I got assigned a SOQ, which was a sick officer’s quarters. These were all semi-private rooms to private rooms up there on the 12th floor, looking over everything. And my brother had a ward that had 60 patients in it. These were all mostly guys that were wounded in Vietnam. And—because Great Lakes took an awful lot of patients from there. And in retrospect, I actually wish I would have gone with him to that ward. It would have got me better prepared to do what I had to do when I went to Vietnam. He was changing an awful lot of dressings down there. And gaining experience. And at that time, I thought I was the lucky one. But in fact, my brother was. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how long did they have you do this duty? (00:22:34) Veteran: We were supposed to work there for at least a year before we went to Vietnam. But we had been at that hospital less than—maybe 10 months. And we had—I got a call. I was working on the 12th floor and I got a call to go down to personnel. And when I got down there, my brother was down there. And I looked at him and he looked at me and said, “What’s up? What did we do?" First thing in the mind. And the chief came up and said, “Well, a Jakubczak got orders to go to Vietnam.” And we asked, “Which one?” Because his serial number was B510022. Mine was B510023. And he said, “It’s your choice.” We asked the chief what would happen. He said, “One of you would go and when he finishes his tour, he’ll come back and then the other one will go.” And my brother and I didn’t like that because if I go first, he’s sitting there wondering what’s �going on. And then when I come back, I know what’s going on so I am going to be worried about him. So, we talked the chief into taking us both. Me and my brother had the 2-2. He got the orders and I got volunteered but we were already on the list. All the corpsmen that went to Vietnam during my time, that I know of, were all volunteers. That was a job that we were supposed to do. So, that—we got time off. 30 days off in January. And towards the end of January, we flew to California to get shipped to Vietnam. Interviewer: Now, when you got to California, did they give you any kind of preparation? Any shots? Or any other training? Or…? (00:24:37) Veteran: I had already gotten my shots at Great Lakes before I left. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Everybody would—if they were in the medical field, they got them right there. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And when I got to California, all it was was just okay, we got to get you some green clothes like the Marines and a uniform and some combat boots and fatigues. And then it took a few days and we were only in California 4 days. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then we—once we flew out, and I believe that was El Toro that we flew out of. We flew—I was in Japan for about 40 minutes while they fueled us. We never left the plane. And then we took off and ended up in Okinawa. Interviewer: Now, was this a military aircraft or a charter? Veteran: Yes. To get there. �Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. Veteran: From Okinawa to Vietnam, it was Continental. And the stewardesses were pretty goodlooking. And they were all volunteers, by the way. Greatest bunch of people. They knew where we were going because they had—they often did this many times. And made us as comfortable as they could possibly make us. And joking around the whole time there. It was a very nice flight. Interviewer: Now, was the flight all corpsmen? Or were there different personnel, kinds of personnel there? Veteran: It was all enlisted. Interviewer: All enlisted. (00:26:08) Veteran: There might have been some—there were some officers there but…maybe 10 or 12 officers. But the rest of the plane was full of enlisted men. Interviewer: Alright. But were they—were there just a few of you who were medical corpsmen and the rest were just regular grunts? Or…? Veteran: It was mixed. There were corpsmen on there, there was infantry, there was probably people there that were going to be in tanks. Artillery people. I mean, it was a mixture of everything. Interviewer: Alright. And you’re going over there essentially as replacements. You’re going go and join units that are in the field? Veteran: We were all replacements. Interviewer: Alright. �Veteran: And it was…We flew from Okinawa and landed in Vietnam. We are now in the Republic of Vietnam. Interviewer: And where did you land? Veteran: And it was in Da Nang. Interviewer: Da Nang. Okay. Veteran: And he was taxiing down the runway and it’s just getting hotter and hotter in the plane. And we were going, “I hope he turns the air conditioning on before too long.” And he comes to a stop and he says, “We are now turning the air conditioning off.” And it—as soon as he turned it off, the heat index immediately went to the roof. We had 4 men pass out from the heat. We could hardly wait to get out of the plane. It felt like you were being baked. It’s what it did. And when we got to the outside, it was just as hot outside as it was inside that plane. There was very little relief. There was a little bit of wind but it was—it was—they told us it was 110. So, it—leaving Michigan in February, it was 28 degrees and now we were in 110 degrees. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: I believe in 1968, the average temperature for the whole year was 115. Interviewer: The average high probably. Veteran: The average—yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, now what did they do with you? You get off the plane. Now what happens? (00:28:13) Veteran: When I got off—when we got off the plane—we went into a large room and just sat around. This was where you were going to get your orders and where you were going to go. And �we are just sitting around, waiting for them to call our names. And they called out they were looking for volunteers. And we need corpsmen to go to Force Recon. And so, I said, “Okay.” I said, “I’ll do that.” And I was getting up to go and they’re—I am sitting with 4 other Marines and they all said, “Doc, sit down. You’re not volunteering for that.” I said, “Oh no? Why?” He says, “Trust us. You’re not volunteering for that.” So, I sat down and I ended up being assigned to a company called 4th Shore Party, an HST Company which was—they handled the logistics for the Marines out in the field. And they usually send—there was like 4 or 5 guys that would go on every operation or any large sweep that they needed to resupply with. And all—whatever they needed, they gave it to our radioman and he called it in and they’d send choppers in to resupply them. Whether it was ammo, medical supplies for me, food, anything that they needed was coordinated through 4th Shore Party in this area. So, that’s where I was assigned. And pretty much, I went with the company—people and companies—I went with was like the 3rd Marines. On one operation with the 5th Marines, the 27th Marines, the 9th Marines, and the 26th Marines. So, I was with a lot of different units for short periods of time when they needed to be resupplied. And that’s where, when we went out in the field, and whenever we had action, I would leave my small unit and go to where the fighting was so I could help the other corpsmen do their job. (00:30:24) Interviewer: Okay. So, you’re there nominally as corpsman for the people out of your own unit? Veteran: Right. Interviewer: But then when something happens, then you’re a corpsman— Veteran: That’s what I do. �Interviewer: --and you kind of go where needed. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, where did they actually have you based when you get to Vietnam? Veteran: We were actually based—4th Shore Party was actually right across from a place called Freedom Hill, where we called it Freedom Hill. And it was just outside a village we called Dog Patch. That is—I believe it was southwest of Da Nang. Interviewer: Alright. And physically, what was the country like around there? Veteran: Where I was, it was a lot of rice paddies that were dry. Some of them had water in them but very few. It was an extremely dry year in 1968 apparently. Mountainous. And once you got towards the mountains, there was a jungle. Pretty much that was about it. Interviewer: Okay. Now, what was the date when you arrived? Veteran: I arrived in country February 4th, 1968. Interviewer: Okay. And that’s going to be right after the start of the Tet Offensive. Veteran: It was 4 days after the start of the Tet Offensive. Interviewer: Now, was there much going on in your sector at that point? Or was it elsewhere in the country? Veteran: No. Actually, the other corpsmen said, “Boy, you just missed it. Last night they blew up an ammo dump and you could see it: flames and everything.” Yeah, we were just—they hit further north. Now, I know in Tet they hit a lot of different areas all the way down. But they didn’t do Da Nang quite as bad as what they did other places. So, I guess it was—we were kind �of like, you know, lucky. In a little bit lucky area. The areas around us, some of them, which were called Happy Valley, which by the way was not a happy valley. A lot of Vietnamese there. Elephant Valley, Dodge City, Arizona Territory. That was in an area called province—I think it was a province called Thuong Duc. And that—all of that was west and—west and southwest of Da Nang. (00:32:50) Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you in a base camp of some kind that you reported in? Or…? Veteran: I was in a battalion. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that’s a large base camp. A company is roughly 187 men. And a battalion takes up or makes up 3 companies and a command group. So, yeah, there was about 400, maybe a little more, plus or minus to be exact. About 400 men there. Interviewer: Okay. At least as long as the units are at full strength, which they are not always. Veteran: My first assignment was—the first thing I did was they brought me to supply and I got a helmet, I got the flak jacket, and I got a .45 with a one clip for the .45 and two spares and a box of .45 ammo. Which, okay, that was fine. And everything—I am still in the mode that this is— we are still playing soldier. And so, they said, “Well, it’s time for you to go to your first assignment. We want you to go on a mine sweep because this is one of the things that this battalion also did.” So, I said, “Sure. Let’s go.” And then we went to by Marble Mountain. There was a battalion area there of 3rd LVTs. (00:34:23) �Veteran: And right outside Marble Mountain. And then there was a little village right next to that, right in front of the camp. So, that’s where we stayed when we were on this mine sweep. So, we would sweep the road through the village and go around up Highway 1 for about a mile and a half. And we would do that every morning. And that is not—it wasn’t bad duty because that is all you had to do all day. You could play cards. You could go to Enlisted Men’s Club. You could do anything. So, that’s not so bad. And that’s what I did for about 4 days. It was great. On the 5th day, this truck hit a mine. Now, the Marine’s mine sweepers were great for picking up metal. But they weren’t great for picking up hard, solid objects that weren’t metal. And the gooks knew this. So, they would build a mine out of wood with the explosive. Well that’s what this—it was a command detonated explosion. And it blew up a truck. And the first guy that I got to looked like he was slumped over in the front seat, or what was left of the front seat. And there was just—it was a bloody mess all over. And I reached over and pulled him and he had lost—he was—lost his head. It had a crooked jawline up here like this to the lower part, middle part, of the ear and all of this was gone. That was my first casualty. First guy I turned over. It…That was a shock. To say the least, that was a shock. But there was another guy there that I had to treat. So, I treated him. (00:36:18) Veteran: Actually, the one that was killed was horrible but the guy that was right next to him had two new deep cuts in his arm and that was it. Which was nice for this guy but—so, I put a battle dressing on and took care of him. But we looked for this man’s head for about 20 minutes and we couldn’t find it. And then I started to get scared. This was a place where I might not be able to get out of…alive, anyway. Now, I knew I stopped playing soldier at that moment. And then it was quite serious from that point on. �Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were on a mission like this, were you spending nights out in the field? Was there another base camp or…? Veteran: They had—this aid station had 12 other corpsmen. But there was 3 of us that we were alternating in and out of the field. And I would work—they—this was easy duty usually, the mine sweep team. So, you would go out there and spend a week or two then come in and go on an operation. And I actually left after that incident. 5 days later, I went back to my base camp and they asked me would I go on operations and I said yes. So, my first operation was nice. It was not bad. It was off of Hill 110, which to be honest with you, I am not sure the location. But it is in around Hill 55. It is all south—south and southwest—of Da Nang. So, we jumped off Hill 110 and we were gone about 4 days out in the field. Couldn’t—didn’t see anything. It was just— turned out to be, you know, a long, hot walk in the middle of the jungle and then we came back. (00:38:29) Veteran: And we were going to stay on Hill 110 for a day and a half so they could come pick us up with trucks because they weren’t sure if they were going to use us on another operation right off the bat or not. So, that night they woke us up and we were in a tent on cots and they woke us up and said, “Get in the holes.” A hole is a foxhole. And so, we all did. Apparently, military intelligence, which later we would call an oxymoron, but military intelligence says there was a lot of movement around Hill 110. And we may be getting hit. So, we are all in there, waiting around. It’s—waiting for something to happen. And I get called, “Corpsman! Corpsman!” Nothing happened yet. And so, I run down to this other foxhole and apparently—I mean, I am getting nervous up there and apparently this guy was really getting nervous because he was hyperventilating. And the only way I could get him to stop was I took a large battle dressing and I—they were encased in plastic. So, I just—I took one, I took the plastic off the battle dressing �and I made a little bag out of it and I said, “Blow on this. Just breathe in and out with this and it will slow you down.” And then, the guy next to him, I said, “If he passes out, don’t worry about it because his breathing will go back to normal and he is just going to wake up.” But this guy is blowing in this bag and he’s slowing down. I said, “The only thing I want you guys to know is if you see gooks coming our way, shoot straight.” And then I went back to my hole. (00:40:28) Veteran: Well, about an hour and a half later, we start getting hit with mortars. And the mortars just—they came in from everywhere and they were hitting all areas of Hill 110. And we had a couple wounded and we got them to the aid station. I threw a battle dressing on them and we got them to the aid station where there is a doctor on the hill. And then, went back to the hole. And it died down for about what seemed to be like a half hour. And then they started walking them in on the wire. Now, there is concertina wire which is the same thing as barbed wire only it is a lot sharper, razor sharp. And it’s, the area where we are, it’s got concertina wire all the way around in front of us. And they walked the mortars in and they knocked one of the largest holes in that fence. And we just knew that we were going to be seeing gooks any time. Well, nothing happened. And it really, I mean, it was wide open but nothing happened. Well, as it turned out, later that—earlier that day—General Westmoreland was actually visiting the commander of Hill 110. And General Westmoreland left. And we thought that when the gooks still thought he was there and they were trying to get him. And when they found out that he wasn’t there, it wasn’t worth their sacrifice to try to take the hill. So, the attack never happened. (00:42:22) Veteran: But the next morning, when we went back to the tent where we were sleeping, and that tent was just like swiss cheese. And the cot that I was sleeping in, you could not—there was not a space open. If I would sit on it, I would fall through. It was like a—it was just riddled with �holes from shrapnel. So, that was—I considered myself really, really lucky. And then later that morning, we got picked up and I went back to our battalion headquarters again. Interviewer: Now, in this area, were you going in and out on trucks or did they use helicopters? Veteran: Both. Most of the time, if you took a truck, you were going to a specific location, some battalion area where you were going to kick off the operation. We did that on a number of occasions. They would drive you to Hill 110 and then you started humping from Hill 110 to wherever you wanted, wherever you were going to go. And on one occasion, they did that. It was—they gave us a USO Show. We were already there, waiting to get ready to go. And then all of a sudden, they decide we are going to throw you a USO Show. And everybody is having a good old time and, all of a sudden, it started dawning on everybody: why are they doing this? Why are they making these things so nice right now? And all the levity, it totally changed. And it didn’t matter what those people did on stage, it was dead quiet. Everybody was starting to think about what was—where we were going. And it was a good thing because we ended up going to Happy Valley that night. humping into it. (00:44:20) Interviewer: Okay. Now to back up a little bit, when you got into Vietnam, did they give you any kind of ‘Welcome to Vietnam’ orientation? Was there any sort of training that you got to prepare you to go into the field? Veteran: No. They did orientate us about Vietnam and the biggest thing they were worried about was syphilis. Gonorrhea. Venereal disease. “You will stay away from the women. Because if you don’t stay away from the women”—this was a big speech that we had— “you will get black syphilis. And if you get black syphilis, you can’t go home. They’re going to send you to an �island and they’re going to tell your parents that you died.” And this is what they were trying to tell me and I knew better. And I kind of like laughed it off. And but these guys, some of these Marines were paying really close attention. And there was no such thing as black syphilis. Never was. But they were trying to keep them away from the villages, is what they were doing. Interviewer: Alright. So— Veteran: Or, trying to keep—let’s—they were trying to keep the venereal disease down. Interviewer: Right. But they weren’t doing anything in terms of jungle survival training or other stuff like that? Veteran: No, they didn’t do—no. That’s…Unfortunately, that’s on the job training. And you learn really quick. Interviewer: Alright. So, take us into Happy Valley then. Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, that was…That was where I got introduced to more mortar fire and small arms fire. It was a no-named operation. It was just—just a sweep. And it lasted 7 days. Maybe. 6 or 7. You lose track of time real easy. And we got into free fire fights. And we had to medevac 4 or 5, which wasn’t bad. Nobody was killed. We had 4 or 5 wounded. (00:46:32) Veteran: Never saw anybody that we killed. If we killed anybody. You know, it was just hard fire fight, stopped, and when we got over to the ground, sometimes you could see blood trails. Sometimes you couldn’t see anything at all. A blood trail would tell us okay, well at least we either wounded somebody or they carried away their dead. And they liked to carry away their dead so you don’t know what you’re getting. �Interviewer: Alright. Now, when they got into fire fights, would they then bring in artillery or air support? Or were you just the guys on the ground? Veteran: Sometimes the fire fight would start and finish so fast…A lot of people think, you know, if they see a battle on tv or something, they think it lasts for hours and…But a lot of times, the fire fight alone will, you know, it will only last for a minute or so or less sometimes. It is just like bang! And then it is done. Sometimes it did last a lot. We were in certain areas under certain conditions where you needed artillery, you needed helicopters to come in for—with their support. Our artillery was pretty good. And if you give them the correct coordinates, and emphasis on correct coordinates, they would hit and they would hit what you wanted them to hit. And it was—they were ready to help if you needed help. There was also a time where Snoopy came in and Snoopy was a 130 cargo jet [note: the C-130 was propeller driven] that was fitted with mini guns and just kind of like flew in the—flew around. I mean, he could hit anything you wanted. And each mini gun fired, I was told, 5000 rounds a minute. And there was one time where we were hunkering down waiting and it didn’t look good until all of a sudden out of this clear blue sky, here comes Snoopy and things changed dramatically then. It’s—he made all the difference in the world. (00:48:51) Interviewer: So, do you have kind of a fairly regular cycle then of going on short and long patrols? And so forth? Veteran: You didn’t know if it was going to be a long patrol or short patrol. There was—it would depend on contact, mostly. Because the goal of the Marines was to make contact and kill the enemy. So, you really didn’t know whether you were going to be out for 4 days or 4 weeks. I know I went on one operation that, actually, it strung out for a real long time. Went on one operation and we went up in the hills. They called it ‘hill.’ A 1275. It was a mountain. But we �had to climb to the top because the enemy was supposed to be on top of this hill and we were going to climb up there and take it. Well, it was muddy and the mud was clay. So, every time you got so far up, you would slide down and you actually had to grab ahold of vines and roots from trees in order to get yourself up. And it took us all day to get to the top of that hill. And thank God, there was nobody up there when we got up there. The worst casualty I had that day was in the middle of the night, a Marine got—woke up screaming because he got cramps in both his legs and he couldn’t stop it so I had to sit on him in order to straighten out his legs so we could relieve his cramps. And that was the worst part of the casualty. (00:50:35) Veteran: And it was cold and rainy. And when I say it’s cold, it had to have been about only 80 degrees. And believe me, it is amazing how you can shiver in 80 degrees. It was very cold. But we searched the place; found nothing. And they said, “Okay, we are going to take you off the hill.” And so, choppers came to pick us up and we are going to put you on another operation that’s in the Go Noi Island area. That was a—they called it Go Noi Island because it wasn’t really an island. It was usually dry and had a couple rivers running by it. But in a rainy season, they would flood and it would totally make it an island just during the rainy season. So, they called it Go Noi Island, or at least that’s what our powers to be did. And so, when we finally got down into the heat and we were relaxing a little bit, they said, “Okay, we are going.” And then we took off. And it turned out to be we were going to be—it was a search and destroy. We were going to sweep through 3 villages, relocate the people, and then we were going to destroy the villages. They were all confirmed VC. So, that’s what we started: we started sweeping in off of Liberty Bridge. Liberty Bridge was a bridge that was very—just southwest—I keep saying southwest but it was just southwest of Da Nang. I forgot the name of the river that we needed so �that we could cross into the Go Noi Island. And we started our sweep and we started and we took 3rd LVTs with us. These were like landing crafts, like ducks. (00:52:36) Interviewer: Yeah. Were they tracked? Veteran: Yep, with tracks. And so, they were with us with this sweep. And we started getting harassing mortar fire and small arms fire. And it was strictly harassing. And that happened all afternoon and stopped and started again about early evening. And they called in jets in order to drop some bombs. But it was kind of unusual this time because usually when they see the jets, you know they are running. This time, they were shooting back at the jets as they were diving down. You could hear the small arms fire going—and they weren’t going towards us. They were shooting at the jets as they were coming. And made us a little nervous because that was unusual. At least, we thought it was unusual. So, we weren’t sure what to expect. And the next day—well, we made camp, dug in, and then we picked up in the middle of the night with very little noise and moved about 200 yards away from where we were. And about 2 hours later, or a short time later, mortars just started dropping in on our old position. And the arc light—we must have had a pretty smart colonel that was leading us. And we went back to the area first the next day. We went back to our old area and in the foxhole that I had dug, a mortar blew up. And I tell you, I had cold chills going down my back. (00:54:30) Veteran: So, we started our sweep again. Picked up from where we left off. And we were getting close to the first village and we start receiving small arms fire. And so, there was a fire fight that lasted about 20-25 minutes when we finally got started into that first village. Didn’t find anybody. Saw some blood. Didn’t find anybody, not even villagers. And out there were animals and that. It was like everybody fled. And so, they burned all the hootches. And dropped explosive down the well to blow the well up. And burned anything that could be used as food or �whatever. And continued on with our sweep. We got to the outskirts of the second…Just—or, the outskirts of that first village and we ran into, the small group that I was with, we ran into a family that was hiding in a bomb shelter. And we had an interpreter with us. And they pulled them all out and they started questioning them and I just was kind of like watching what they were doing when we started getting fired upon. Our area, you know, we all hit the ground and scattered for whatever protection we could find. And I crawled next to a bush line. Usually you talk about tree line? Well, this was a bush line and a hedgerow. And I tried to get down as low as I could because the firing started coming in my direction. (00:56:20) Veteran: And I was on my back and I am trying to dig in like this with as far—to get down as low as I could. And I am right next to the hedge line. The bushes were hanging over my head. And it made it very difficult to see me. And—but that was still—shots were still coming in my direction. And I just happened to look up and I was—I have this leaf about this far over my nose. And I just kind of focused on it. And then it was gone. That’s how close they were coming. And the Marines—there was like 4 or 5 others with me that stayed to interrogate these people. And they started firing in all directions because they weren’t quite sure where it was coming from. And I shot—I was shooting my .45 just, you know, okay I might not hit anything but maybe the noise will scare them. And they were close enough to where you could hear them messing with their weapons. You couldn’t see them but they were close enough to where this one had his—it must have been an AK-47—because it was an automatic that was shooting. And as—it was jammed. And we rose up instantly and started leaving the area, running out of the area, which was a good thing because they were—we no more than got out of where we were, mortars were dropping in the area where we were and they were walking them up behind us. And we were running. Ended up running through a cemetery. Vietnamese, I was told, they bury their dead �sitting up. Most of the old ways, they bury their dead sitting up. And I don’t know the religious reasons why but their gravesites are about 3-4 feet, maybe 4 feet, in diameter. They are round. And maybe 18 inches high off the ground. (00:58:35) Veteran: And we were running through this cemetery and jumping over graves and these mortars are getting really close. And I just fell behind one of the graves and a mortar hit on the other side of the grave. Run my clock, so to speak, really well. And when I looked up, I think I passed out for a couple seconds. There was dirt everywhere. And I just decided I couldn’t hear. And—but it was all—it was too quiet. I couldn’t hear nothing. So, I got up and ran. Outran the mortars but I still couldn’t hear anything. I could see other Marines and that but I couldn’t hear them. And I couldn’t even hear myself talk. And a guy came up to me and he said, “Doc! Someone is hurt!” And I had to yell at him, “What?!” And then he had—he finally had to—knew it, and yelled back loud enough to where I heard muffled. My hearing was coming back but it was just…It was— really shook my hearing. So, he said, “No, there’s a—one of the guys got wounded. And he’s back where you came from.” So, I said, “You stay here. I don’t want to work on two guys.” So, I ran back through the mortars. And the guy had a sucking chest wound. He was laying on his— laying up against a small hill and when we got there, we checked him over and it was his left side. You could see the air bubbling out of his chest. (01:00:26) Veteran: And it sounds really serious. For first aid, it is a real easy fix. You just plug up the air loss where the air—you’re losing air in your body. And then, I did that with the plastic on a battle dressing and just tightened. Put a battle dressing on him really, really tight. You know. And made him lay on that side so he could breathe easier. And then we picked him up on his good arm and another corpsman had come up just at the same time. And he grabbed the other �arm and we ran through the mortars again until we could get safely—him safely—out of the way. But you couldn’t stay there. So… Interviewer: Alright. This tape is about up. Did you find that at least once you had your job to do, did things kind of go automatically? I mean, you shift out of your own shock or fear or whatever that was when you were first running away, now into something else? Veteran: Actually yeah, your training kind of like takes over. For us, the training was there is a guy that needs you. You got to get to him. And you forget about everything. What is going on around you. You just concentrate on one thing: you are going to get to that injured guy. Because seconds count. And so, you kind of put blinders on. And it’s kind of cute when you see these movies and they are running like this through battlefield explosions. No, you go in…It is a straight line and that’s it. You make a beeline and that is it. None of this kitty corner things. And it has always worked. I am here today to talk about it so it has worked. (01:02:22) Interviewer: Now after this particular point in the action, did things quiet down for a while or did this just keep going? Veteran: No, we—for the night, it was still. We still got—I medevaced—memory is not so good. Approximately 16 WIAs, Wounded In Action. And we had 4 dead. Interviewer: Now, was this a company-sized sweep or a battalion? Veteran: This was a battalion-sized sweep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I did not—I don’t know where, I didn’t know where, all the companies were. So, I am not sure exactly where they were but it was a whole battalion. Yes. And I believe it was 1-7. �1-2-7. Yeah, 1, 2, and 3 of the 7th Marines. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Battalion of the 7th Marines. And this was 2-7. And so that night, there was harassing mortar fire. Not so much small arms fire, just mortar fire. And one of the LVTs was extremely lucky. RPG, Rocket Propelled Grenade, went through—was fired—at one of these landing craft. And it actually went through one wall and out the other and blew up. And it went through just above where a guy was sleeping. And we thought we were going to have to medevac him just for his nerves because he was really shook up. And he was just lucky enough it went through. Usually, they will go through one wall and blow up. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:04:13) Veteran: But apparently, I think, this gook got close enough to where the momentum of the rocket just pushed it all the way through. And then blew up. Lucky for this guy. But that’s—that next morning, we started going into the second village. And the second and third villages were almost together. They were very close so you almost—looks like one huge one. But there was supposed to be two. And we started getting very hard fire. And again, so there was another fire fight. And it took us about 40 minutes to get into the village. And when we did get into the village, we killed 5 old men. 4 old men and 5 really old ladies. And these—I am talking like grandpas and that and didn’t look like they could have been the ones that were shooting at us. And they had them all lined up. And I saw this mother holding her baby, crying. And I thought she was probably crying for someone who had died. And I noticed that she was holding a baby. And the arm was kind of out flung like this and it wasn’t moving. So, I went over there and I took the baby from the mother and—to see if it was okay. And well…it wasn’t. It was—we killed this infant. Had to have been about no more than 2 days old. I didn’t need to, after I took �her, I knew she was dead. And that was really hard. That was…That was—we killed total innocents with this. There was no enemy here. (01:06:24) Interviewer: Now, were these casualties from bombardment or from small arms fire? Veteran: Small arms fire. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I gave her—I gave the baby back to the mother and I tried to tell her that it was…I was sorry and—but she was just not paying attention to anything. She’s…just was crying full out then. And with—that baby has bothered me since that day. I had her blood all over my hands and my shirt. And that infant had a profound affect on me. Now, did I pull the trigger? No. But we were the ones that did it. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And I didn’t really think it was going to be bothering me after I got out of Vietnam but it effected the way I—for my own kids, I couldn’t hold them when they were babies. I kept seeing this little girl. And that was really hard. That was exceptionally hard. I couldn’t believe we did this. And then, the Marines now are going through all the hutches—the hooches—and setting them on fire. They’re blowing up the wells. They are kicking over the food, collecting all—the villagers were in these villages and they were collecting all the people and putting them all over in one area where trucks were going to come and relocate them. And when we were doing this, what snapped me out of it a little bit…A Marine came up to me and said there was this little girl and she was really sick. (01:08:31) �Veteran: And this little girl was about 13. 12 or 13—something like that. She was young. And she had extreme pain in the lower right quadrant. And she had a fever and another corpsman was—came up at the same time that I was, or came with me—and we felt her and then I felt her lower quadrant and it was extremely hot. And the only thing that we could think of is her—she is having an appendicitis attack. And the way it feels, it is going to burst. So, I told a Marine that was nearby, “Go get an interpreter.” And we started getting her ready so we could get her a chopper in here for emergency medevac to get her to a hospital. And this mother is just fighting with us. She just knows we are going to do the worst things to her daughter and end up killing her. But we are—I showed her my—I tried to show her my caduceus to, you know. I wore it on the collar. It is a battlefield caduceus. It is black. But I tried to show her that. She didn’t understand. But we were—we were—we got a cot and put the baby, or the girl, down and we were going to just bring her over to a chopper once the chopper started coming. And we couldn’t find the interpreter. The guy was not coming so we said, “We got to get her over to the area where the chopper is coming.” So, we went over to the area and the mother is coming with us. And she’s crying and she is fighting with us. I got a Marine that is holding her, her arms pinned. And she is fighting with all she can with this guy to try to get her daughter. She just says— knew—that we were going to kill her. That’s all she thought. (01:10:31) Veteran: And then, to get to the landing zone, we went right by these 200 villagers. And they were old men, old women, young women, and kids. And it was unbelievable. They all thought the same thing. And they all started crying. And I mean, it was more like a wail. I mean, tears were just pouring out of their heads. They were screaming. And all we wanted to do was just try to save this little girl. And it was the hardest thing. It was surreal. I couldn’t believe what was going on. We finally got an interpreter. He was coming up as we were putting the girl on the �chopper and this mother, right now, still doesn’t know what’s going on. She is hysterical. And finally, it took about 10 minutes for this interpreter to convince this mother we were trying to help her rather than kill her. And she was so worried that when she goes, I will never see her again. And I looked at the crew chief, I said, “Mother is going too.” And so, we—then the mother really calmed down a lot when we got her into the chopper with her daughter. But that whole…there had to be close to 200 people there, and they are all crying. They think now we are going to kill the mother and the daughter. And it was like…That was a time where I felt like I am up here watching me down there do whatever I had to do. (01:12:23) Veteran: It was—I just couldn’t believe I was seeing what I was seeing. That was hard to take. Those poor villagers. They just knew we were going to…We were going to kill them. I mean, after all, hell, we just went in there and destroyed their livelihood. Why would they think we were doing something good? And so you know, I actually thought at that time, you know, if we are doing this, we are on the wrong side. We are supposed to be helping these guys and we are not making friends here. We are making enemies here. I really figured we were going to lose back in 1968 at that time. And this was early May. That—because we were fighting for the wrong people. It was a really hard time for me. Interviewer: Now, after—now does the operation then kind of wind down after that? Because you have got— Veteran: No, this operation finally got a name and it was called Allen Brook. Allen Brook… Apparently, Go Noi Island was an area where the North would like to build up troops. And we had heard then that they were going to hit Da Nang like they did Huế in a mini Tet when half the year, I guess it was, instead of New Year it was half the year. And they were going to hit Da Nang like they did Huế. And we actually went, accidentally, right into them. They—I think they �were surprised and we were surprised. Now, after we went through this village, we started going into the tree lines. And when we were approaching a tree line, we got in a horrendous fire fight. (01:14:27) Veteran: And I have to tell you at the time, the temperature in Allen Brook really had a strong effect on…It was hot. It was extremely hot. It was above—around 110 or hotter. And in some valleys, it got as hot as 120, I guess. At least that is what I was told. But when the guys would fall on the ground in order to protect themselves and shoot back, the heat would come up and hit them in the face and they would pass out. That fire fight lasted a good hour. I ended up medevacing 44 wounded and 16 dead. And that was just the start of it. We started getting harassing mortar attacks, constant ambushes. But we had good—the colonel that was in charge of that battalion actually called up division and said, “Is it okay? We will pull out. We are getting an awful lot of contact.” They said, “No, you cannot pull out just because of the contact. It is good contact. You’re going to stay.” And I was still in there for about 10 days. And it was constant fire. We would march in a line and when we were coming up to a tree line or a hedgerow, we would get ready as best you could. And because when we got close enough, we were going to get into a fire fight. (01:16:21) Veteran: They had control of the ground area. They had caves everywhere. They knew the whole layout of the land and it was all…You know, we are here for the first time, like…And we weren’t fighting just the VC, we were fighting NVA soldiers. And they knew what they were doing. We—about the 4th…Time screws things up. After that fire fight, I medevaced all those guys. There was 9 corpsmen that started that operation with me. And we were down to 2. And there was a corpsman that had more time in country than I. He and I were talking and decided that okay, if he sees me going after a guy, he stays back. Or if I see him going after a guy, he �stays back because if we both go, until we get more relief and more corpsmen in here, we are the only 2. And we also made it a pact that as soon as everything was quiet, he and I would check all the wounded, just to make sure they were going to be good before—they would still be alive when the choppers came to get them out. And we went and were checking the wounded towards—it was like late afternoon, about this light out. It had about 3 hours of light left in the day and everything had quieted down so we were checking the wounded before the choppers came to lift them off. And I walked up to this one guy and he had both legs blown off above the knees. It was all in shreds from about mid-thigh down. And I immediately went to the tourniquets and, unfortunately, I could slide my hand under one and so I tightened them up like they should have been, as tight as I could get them on both of them. (01:18:42) Veteran: And checked his pulse. He wasn’t…I could feel a pulse but very faint. But he wasn’t doing good. And I called over for the other corpsman and I said, “Check his pulse. I think I felt one. I am not sure.” That is how light it was. “And I don’t feel it.” And so, we started CPR on him right away because I felt again and I might have felt my own pulse because I really pressed hard into his neck in order to feel it. And so, we started CPR on him. I was doing the heart and he was doing the breathing. And after a while, we switched because I was getting tired. And another Marine came up and was also helping us as best that he could. And I said, “You got to breathe for him for a little bit because we got to do a cutdown. We got to try and get some blood into him.” And—or, blood expanders. And that’s all we had. And I tried to get a vein and I couldn’t find a vein anywhere. And I—the other corpsman said, “Maybe we should do a cutdown.” Which is—we would take a scalpel and slice his arm here and then find a vein that way. And then put the needle in the vein. And so, that’s exactly what I did and I still couldn’t find a vein. I cut him really deep and I couldn’t find the vein. And he died. I don’t know if he �was dead already but he had to have been…I wanted so bad to find the guy that put the tourniquet on. I wanted to kill him. I know the guy was trying to save him. But you really got to put a tourniquet on good. (01:20:39) Veteran: You’re going to hurt the person to stop that blood. And you know, it was like we worked on this guy. It was dark, just about dark, by the time we stopped working on this guy. And I never felt more down in all my life. Interviewer: Now, did they get you out after that? Veteran: Because he…Hmmm? Because he…They count on you to save them. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: You know? I mean…And it is really hard when you can’t. I don’t remember the guys I saved. I remember the guys I lost. So, it was a pretty bad time. In fact, I was so low I…We were going back to our little area where we were going to spend the night and a guard yelled out, “Who goes there?” And I said, “Well, if you’re really good, you can shoot 2 corpsmen.” And I didn’t—at that time, I didn’t care if he shot me or not. That’s how bad I felt. But the next day, it is…There is going to be somebody that is going to need you. So, you just kind of like suck it up. That’s what you do. And that’s what I did. I sucked it up. And—because the next day wasn’t any better than the last. And we were in constant fire fights for going back and forth on that island. That’s all we did. We went from east to west and west to east. And got in all kinds of fire fights. Got in mortar attacks. And they finally decided, you know, these landing craft are pretty damn good targets. Why don’t we send them out of here. And so, they sent them out of here. 2 hours later we get a call—they get a call—on the radio saying that they got hit. (01:22:43) �Veteran: They’re in an ambush, they need help. So, we dropped everything. We have tanks with us so we are running behind the tanks in all this heat. And it takes us almost 2 hours to get to them. And once we link up—well, the ambush wasn’t for them. Interviewer: Oh… Veteran: The ambush was for us. They just kept going at them until we came and they had everything zeroed in. And when the mortars came down, it was direct hit all over the place. And it was in the middle of a dried-out rice paddy. And everybody is going for cover and I am going for cover. And I fall on my knees and I am going into a dike to get as close to the bottom of the dike as I could to get as much protection. And a mortar went off on the other side and I am on my knees and the next thing I know I am shaking my head and I am facing the other direction. It felt like someone had taken a baseball bat and hit me in the face. Well, I got a piece of shrapnel right here. And I was extremely lucky it didn’t go through my eye and into my brain. So…But I am bleeding really good. And I am really dazed and I don’t know what is going on yet. And I got one of my Marines yelling, “Corpsman!” So, I turn around and he’s working on some guys that are wounded. And he looks at me and says, “No, stay there. It’s okay.” (01:24:26) Veteran: And I just…I finally came to my senses and just said—I just said, “Fuck it.” And I grabbed my unit 1, which is the first aid kit. In the Navy, that is what we call our aid kits, is unit 1s. And I grabbed my unit 1 and went to the wounded, who turned out to be my lieutenant who was out there in the field with me. And I am working on him and he got up wounded and he is in shock and his right arm. And I am working on him and he is not—he’s out. He’s not with it at all so he had to have had part of a concussion or at least a severe concussion at the time. And I am just getting a battle dressing on and they start walking in mortars again and there is no place to go because I can’t leave him and he can’t go. So, I spread my flak jacket out and I lay over on �top of him and just covered my—I had my helmet on—and just covered it up like this. And stayed that way and got lucky nothing was…No shrapnel anywhere. And so, he started coming around finally and I finished the battle dressing on. And I figured okay, I am going to have to carry him. So, I start to pick him up and the mortars start coming in again. So, I lay him back down and I go right back over on top of him, just like I did before. It’s a 50/50 chance: 50% you could get hit, 50% you can’t. Well, I was on the good side again so when the mortars started letting up, I started to go to pick him up and he opened up his eyes and he said, “Doc!” which was a good sign. And I said, “Yeah, we got to get the hell out of here.” And I got him on his feet and put his good arm around my shoulder and around his waist and we got to a safer place. We…At the same time, there were 14 other wounded, 2 of which were very bad. And we had a really hard time stopping their bleeding. (01:26:42) Veteran: In fact, we stopped the—both of them were leg wounds. And one, his arm was almost tore off. And we got the bleeding stopped once and then it just started up again. And so, we worked hard and really had to almost put a tourniquet on him. His leg. But we got it stopped. The battle dressing—let’s just say the battle dressing was extremely tight. And I was wounded. And a chopper came in and picked up the other guys and I was putting them on, you know, and that other corpsman said, “Get on the chopper.” I said, “Get on the chopper?” He said, “Get on the chopper! We got 2 guys down there that if that bleeding starts again, they’re going to die and you’re wounded. So, get on the chopper.” And so, I was medevaced to the hospital. In fact, I helped the other corpsmen once we landed at the hospital. They come rushing into help you and I helped them carry these guys in on stretchers. I had one guy—he checked my face. He said, “Damn! You’re lucky. Another quarter of an inch and that would have gone right through.” I said, “Tell me. Yeah, I know. I was really lucky.” I didn’t feel really lucky. But I guess I really �was. And I wanted to get back out in the field. Okay, I did what I was supposed to do. So, I was going to spend the night at this hospital. And this is the hospital that was near Marble Mountain. (01:28:34) Veteran: Extremely safe. The bunkers there—a rocket could hit on top of them and you would just get dust. I mean, they were that strong. And we were…I was going to spend the night there at the hospital. Well, they started getting rocketed. And I got in a bunker and I was—it was a bunker that I was all by myself. It was pitch black in there. Or at least, I thought I was all by myself. And I am leaning up against the wall with my legs crouched up and my arms around my legs because I couldn’t—I was holding myself so tight, I couldn’t stop shaking. And I wanted to stop shaking. And I felt…bad because I was shaking. I felt like a coward because I was…I was that afraid. I was just glad that nobody could see what I was doing. I mean, I was humiliated. I couldn’t…You know, I had to stop shaking. Well, I stayed there the whole night. And about dawn the next morning, I climbed out of the bunker and went to the road and hitchhiked. Picked up a truck, or the truck picked me up. And I said, “I want to go to 4th Shore Party by Freedom Hill. Can you get me there?” “Yeah, no problem. Going that way anyway.” And he drops me off. And I walk in—I am walking into my battalion area—and they are all looking at me. They are all surprised to see me because word came in, they radioed it in, I was medevaced out, shrapnel to the face. And the first thing you think of if you got shrapnel to the face, like half his face is gone. (01:30:42) Veteran: And my doctor had to look at me, the doctor that’s in charge of the brigades, and he said, “You’re really lucky.” I was finally getting to the point, “Yeah, I was really lucky.” And I said, “I just—I got to get back out to the field. There is only one guy there, one other corpsman, and we need more.” So, they rustled up an ambulance and brought me to Hill 55. That’s where �this operation was jumped off at. And that’s where all the supply choppers came and that’s where we put all the supplies on. So, I waited for a CH-46 to come in, which is a banana shaped helicopter, and I hitched a ride back out there when they were bringing supplies. And the first thing everybody that I was with, they looked at me and said, “What the hell are you doing back out in this field?” I said, “Well, we are needed.” And we started joking around and the tank was moving in the back. And I—maybe 50-60 yards away all of a sudden, a huge explosion. And I looked up and I saw the tank up like this. And it came back down. So, I grabbed my unit 1 and I went over there. Someone was going to be hurt. Well, other than concussions, which we medevaced them out for because some of the bleeding was coming out their ears and they were bleeding through the nose, and a lot of them had bumps and bruises. We med—the crew of 4, we medevaced 2 of them. The other 2 were bumped up but they were okay. And we really felt that these guys got to get out of here. So, we shipped them off. (01:32:31) Veteran: And I went back to the guys and I said, “See? That’s why I am here.” They were a good bunch of guys. They always looked out for me. And one of the guys names that I do remember, and I will tell you why later, his name was Pool. Melvin Pool. He was an extremely close friend. And well, he ended up dying later. And he would—he was going to make sure that I had my hole dug first. When we stopped for the night, I would go around and check everybody; make sure that they had their salt pills, their malaria stuff. I would make—if we were going through water, I would check their feet, make sure that they didn’t have immersion foot or anything else that was wrong. And he would be—his hole—my hole was dug first and then he would dig his. We did everything. When we were on the mine sweep teams, we would play poker together. I mean, we’d spend up nights, just talking. Interviewer: So, he was a guy actually in your unit or in your— �Veteran: He was. He was with 4th Shore Party. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Yeah. He was one of the guys that used to go out in the field with me. And he was a super nice guy. And about this time, the Marine Corps had started another operation and it was in close to the same area. In fact, the operations were so close, I wasn’t sure if I was on Allen Brook and this other operation, which was named Mameluke Thrust. And both these operations were so close and in the same area. Both of them were in…I guess you could say that when Allen Brook was winding down, Mameluke Thrust was picking up. (01:34:31) Veteran: And this one, Mameluke Thrust, was really in Thuong Duc Province. And that’s where Happy Valley is. And apparently, they were—we thought at Go Noi Island, it was what they were going to hit, Da Nang. Well, it wasn’t. It was Thuong Duc area where they were building up to hit Da Nang. And it just, it was the same thing: it was one fire fight after another. It was mortar attacks. It was always harassing. It would be a voracious fire fight. And then there wouldn’t be anything. I finally got relieved, only because of my brother. He’s got—he had malaria. And I—the only reason I got relieved was I got this call saying, “You better get back and see your brother. He’s got malaria.” So, they relieved me. And I’d go in and I’d see my brother at the malaria ward. And he tells me that, “I am glad that—I knew you were in a lot of shit,” he said. “Your guys from your battalion came over here to see you and the only Jakubczak they had in the hospital was in the malaria ward and they are telling all these people that he came in here with shrapnel to the face. And he—they finally brought him to the malaria ward and told him we are looking for a Jakubczak with your—a guy with your last name.” And he said, “Is that Dick?” Because that’s what he always called me. And they said, “Yeah.” He said, “That’s my �brother.” So, they searched that hospital from top to bottom, including the morgue. They were looking for me. And I didn’t tell anybody hey, I was leaving. I just left. (01:36:26) Veteran: And so, I went and saw him. He said, “Don’t worry about it.” He said, “When I knew you went back, I figured you were okay so I wrote the folks at home. I said, ‘Dick got hit with shrapnel to the face but don’t worry about it; he’s okay.’” My older brother was like that. I had to write a letter to say, ‘Yes, it was a very small piece of shrapnel. You can’t even see it where it hit my face. So, don’t worry about me.’ In other words, they would have been worried too. But from there, I went back and forth to either Mameluke Thrust or Allen Brook. Because they gave me a few days off and then I went back and I joined another corpsman that usually went out like that. His name was—his nickname was Mississippi. And—because he was from Mississippi. Now, he was an old Hillbilly. Tough old bird too. And he and I stayed together for a few more days and then he finally said, “Okay, you have had enough. You come back. Mississippi is taking over.” Because I had been in the field from end of April all the way through—this was in June. And so. they decided to give me some rest. So, I went back on the mine sweep team. And you—we considered that light duty. And it really was light duty. And we are sweeping the road and it was an unusual morning: no people were around. (01:38:23) Veteran: And usually, when we are going through the end of the village that we passed through every time, we carried fruit for the kids. And the kids would be out there begging for it. They weren’t out there, which made us really, really nervous. And so, we kind of like spread things out a little bit, got further apart, and started our sweep and we were on Highway 1. And we got to this one area where it was a lot of trees and shrubs on the one side and rice paddy on the other. And then, out of the blue like, small arms fire opened up. And 7 guys dropped. And that left me and the radioman. I don’t know why they didn’t get the radioman but they left him and he was �calling for help and I am dragging 1 Marine off the road to the other side for cover. And I grab his M-16 and I am shooting into the woods. Some of the other wounded Marines were shooting into the woods as they crawled off to the other side of the road, because it dropped down and it gave us protection. And the radioman was shooting into the woods as well. And we are all down there and it was just luck that there was a reactionary platoon forming up at the battalion area that was further up the road, no more than ¾ of a mile away. And they were already there. The trucks were there and I think they were there within 5 minutes, or less. And it seemed like 4 hours. A long time. Well, it could have been a whole day but it was only about 5 minutes. And they came in, started spraying the woods, and it was over. There was nothing, you know. (01:40:26) Veteran: And I started working on the wounded. And they came out and I don’t know if we got them or they got them because there was so much shooting. They came in and said, “Hey, we got 4. And got their IDs right here.” They were pulling them out and I said, “Holy crap.” I said, “They were young.” They said, “Yeah, their IDs say they are 11 and 12-year-olds.” Interviewer: Wow. Veteran: And when they opened up, they had AK-47s and they just—I mean, 7 men dropped, just like that. And I don’t know why I wasn’t hit. And I am sure the radioman doesn’t know, especially, doesn’t know why he wasn’t hit. And he’s talking on the radio. So, after that, it was quiet. Then it was a little nicer. But we—afterwards, the guys and I were playing pool, or poker, and because some of them were wounded and went down but they—we just patched them up and they stitched them up and they came back. And we are playing poker. I said, “So much for light duty.” It wasn’t light—it wasn’t so, there was no light duty there for anybody, I don’t think. Yeah, go ahead. �Interviewer: Now, does this…Do things wind down at a certain point? I mean, you had these larger operations that are ongoing. You are dealing with major concentrations of enemy forces but eventually those enemy groups normally will get shot up or leave. Does that calm things down or does it just continue with more of the same? (01:42:12) Veteran: For those, it did calm things down. But those were the two major operations that I was…The biggest. And I think it was the largest in I Corps in 19—for 1968. At least for the Marines that I was with. I guess it turned out that we were supposed to have killed, at the end of those operations, just Allen Brook, we killed 917 of the enemy. We had 187 killed and 1100—a little over a 1100 wounded. And then I think…I know I medevaced when it came to heat. And either heat, it was insect bites, it was—could have been illness. Or somebody just fell and broke a leg or whatever. I think we medevaced of them—had to have been—about another 200. So, I would say that Allen Brook was by far, for me, it was the largest operation I had ever been on. And it lasted, actually, it lasted all the way, I believe, to the end of July. And I wasn’t with it the whole time but and I think Mameluke Thrust started early June and went into October. And Mameluke Thrust killed almost as many Vietnamese as what we did. The other operations that I was on in company sweeps weren’t terribly bad. I mean, you’d medevac a few wounded, maybe 1 or 2 dead sometimes. Maybe no dead, just wounded. I know I medevaced a lot on different sweeps from just heat. (01:44:12) Veteran: There was one time where guys were passing out in the shade. We couldn’t go anymore and so they just said, “Sit down, drink water, and we are going to wait until when the sun goes down to leave.” And the guys were passing out. So, the only way I could cool them down is, luckily there was a river right where we were, was to immerse them in the water totally. So, everything was covered but their face. And I had the Marines, the other guys, holding the guys �up to keep them that way. And I had other Marines hitting the water with sticks because the water was full of water snakes and they are a very curious snake; not necessarily aggressive but very curious. And these guys are knocking the water like this. I medevaced 14 guys that afternoon just from the heat. It was either heat—most of it was heat stroke, a little bit of heat exhaustion, but out of the guys, there had to have been 10 heat strokes. And that’s unusual because you started drinking water in the morning and you, you know, as long as you could get water, you drank it. On one of the sweeps that I was on…And this—these are company sweeps. And so, you don’t really run into—if you’re by, you know, a company by itself doesn’t—isn’t really looking to see a run into a battalion or anything. But we are sweeping the hills and the captain that was leading us said, “We are going to go through a Montagnard village. So, pay respect. They are our allies and they like Americans a lot.” So, we got up to the village and it was really quiet. (01:46:04) Veteran: And we saw bodies laying around. And then we saw arms and we saw heads and we saw parts of legs. The North didn’t like the Montagnards. And I don’t know if they were trying to make an example of them. But they had hacked the whole village apart. I said—it sounds like there was 40 of them…villagers. Men, women, and children. And that was surreal. One of the guys said, “Don’t they believe they have to be whole? They got to be, in order to get into their heaven. They have to be all together.” And so, we spent the next, I don’t know, it was a while. A couple hours maybe, picking up pieces and parts and matching them up with…So they would be all together. That was hard. You’re walking around and you got this young kid’s arm in one hand and you got this one older guy’s leg in the other. And you’re walking up to them and you’re going—the way you’re doing it is by the way they were hacked so if it matched it, it was close. It might not have been the right one but if it was hit the same way, we put them together. And �picked up their heads and put them in place. And just had them all lined up in a straight row. And we left. (01:48:15) Interviewer: That’s— Veteran: That was hard. Interviewer: Yeah. That’s pretty ghastly. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: You heard it told by many good guys out there. Yeah. Veteran: But you know, that…We shouldn’t have…I don’t believe we should have been there in the first place. Maybe. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that is sort of a hard call to make. But it is important to know kind of what goes on. And that…Certainly, the North and the Viet Cong had had their share of travesties. Veteran: They must have hated them. Interviewer: And more deliberately, you know, than most of anything we came up with. And that goes on too. And so yeah, you run into that. Now, do you spend your whole year in Vietnam, kind of continuing to walk through these things? Do they give you any breaks of any length or any R and R or anything like that? Veteran: R and R. Went to Bangkok. Greatest place I ever went, only because it was out of Vietnam. I came off one operation and I walked into the aid station. I just looked up at the chief and I said, “Get me out of the country.” I mean, I had had it. And he said, “I will see what I can do.” Came back, he said, “You want to wait 7 days, you can go to Australia.” And I said, “No. �get me out of this country.” He said, “You got it.” And they did. I don’t know how they did it. They got me a Marine green uniform because the corpsman can do that. They’re the only MOS in the military that can wear Marine greens or Navy blues. And they got me a whole uniform, a green Marine uniform, so I would be dressed the part to go on R and R. And went to the airport. Everything was done. This was like 2 days they did that. And went to the airport and this is how naïve I was: pot. The guy said, “You’re going to Bangkok. You get caught with pot in Bangkok, you’re going to go to jail for 10-15 years.” (01:50:41) Veteran: “No if, ands, or buts. You’re going to jail. We are going to put this basket in the room and turn the lights down. And then we are going to come back in about a minute and then you’re going to be on your own and no buts. We see pot, you don’t have to worry about a thing. Nothing will be done.” He did that and I got to tell you, he filled a whole bushel basket up with pot. I didn’t—I have never smoked my entire life. So, I didn’t have any pot. I was flabbergasted there was that much there. But then we went to Bangkok. I had a great time. Got away from the damn country, Vietnam, for 5 days and I was amazed. I went to a movie there and they tell you that at the end of the movie, they are going to show you a picture of the king and queen, then they are going to play their national anthem. You will not leave that theater early. And you will stand and give the proper salute that is needed. So, I was amazed. I was—I watched this dumb movie. It was 2000—2001, I believe. Interviewer: Space Odyssey? Veteran: Yes! Space Odyssey. And it was—it took me away from everything I wanted. That was the nice part. But at the end of the movie, I just, I purposely was watching to see if anybody was going to leave early. And they went through all the credits; nobody moved. And right at the last, �bam! There was a picture of the king and queen. Everybody stood up, they played the national anthem, their national anthem, and then we left. (01:52:34) Veteran: That was kind of—I mean, I was amazed at that. I said, “If they said, you know, we are going to play the national anthem at the end of a movie here in the United States, there wouldn’t be a seat that was occupied in that movie theater.” But that? Nobody moved. Nobody wanted to. It’s amazing. Bangkok has got some beautiful sights. Like the reclining Buddha. It’s like 100 feet long. And they had a Buddha that is maybe this high. Solid jade. Beautiful temples. Interviewer: Now, how far into your tour was the R and R? Veteran: This was around July. June: end of June. No, when I came out of the field, I said, “Get me out.” And so, I was kind of relaxed when I came back. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Everybody is. Interviewer: Now, what was it like to have to go back? Veteran: You were fine. Everybody was, on the plane, was, you know, bullshitting and yelling and screaming and talking. Having a good old time. When you got about halfway home…Well, I don’t know what to call it; you’re not home. When you got about halfway back, it started quieting down. And when you were landing, it was dead silence. Because we knew what we were going to get into. Interviewer: Now, you went back to the same place that you left from and your unit it still there? �Veteran: That was continuing. Actually, in Allen Brook and Mameluke Thrust, I ended up going. I was on both those operations twice. Interviewer: So, you get to rejoin them while they are still— Veteran: Yep. I got lucky enough to be on both of them twice. (01:54:15) Interviewer: Did you get to a point where a lot of this was sort of routine or it kind of ran together? Or…was it always sort of different? Veteran: It is always different. The wounds were always different. The ambushes were kind of always different. I did get really down on Mameluke Thrust. I actually wrote home to my wife. I had a son that was 4 months old when I went to Vietnam. And I didn’t have any letters, letter writing paper and that, so they would—told us that they would mail anything; as long as you had the address on it, they would mail it. So, I took a C ration box and I was, I don’t know, I was really down. And I wrote a letter of goodbye to my son because I really felt that I wasn’t going to make it. I told him that I was sorry that I wasn’t going to be there to see him grow up. I never knew…I don’t know what happened to it because I put it in my pocket and I knew that they would find it because they check your bodies when you’re killed. And they would send it. That’s what I was figuring. But it wasn’t to be. It wasn’t to be. And it was constant like that. The mine sweep was nice. It was kind of—this was kind of fun. I am on the mine sweep team. And this is in end of…in July. I was on the mine sweep team and we were watching—they get the movies in at the battalion area—and we were watching To Sir, with Love. And watched the whole thing. Everybody is sitting around in the sand, having a good time. And they said, “No! Play that last song over again.” So, To Sir, with Love. So, they backed the film up and they started showing that and we started getting sniper fire from everywhere. And we all started running to our �hooches to get our weapons and stuff. And we are all looking at—we made the comment, “They must not have liked the movie.” (01:56:38) Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, we are—everybody is in the holes all around because everybody is at 100%. So, the whole perimeter is chocked full of guys. And this is at 3rd LVTs. And on one side of 3rd LVTs is Marble Mountain and a village and on the other side is a beach. And we were at 100% that whole night. And off the beach usually came—there was a morning mist or early fog that was…usually hung around. And my hole happened to have been on the beach side. And early in the morning, the mist was there as usual only it started to lift a little earlier. I think it was just a little warmer and it started to lift. And you could see little…you could just barely see little dots out there. And they have reed boats that are about 4 feet in diameter. They are round. And in each one of those boats were 3 men. And they were like 40 or 45, something like that, of them. And I just all of a sudden heard .30 caliber machine guns opening up. And because, that mist had gotten raised a little bit too quickly and their surprise was not a surprise and they were just sitting ducks. And I think there was 60 bodies washed up on shore. And it was…there was no worry. I mean, everybody opened up. When those .30 calibers started shooting, it was…it wasn’t really a battle. It was really a massacre. They could shoot back but there was no place for them to go and there was no cover. And that morning, we had 60 bodies. It was one of the easiest fire fights that I was in. And no wounded. Nobody on our side got scratched. And—which was even the best thing in the world. (01:58:50) Interviewer: Now as this is all going on, what would you say the morale in the units you were serving with was like? Both your own and the ones you were attached to? �Veteran: The morale with the Marines was always high. I have never seen it low. If you’re in with a group of guys, there is always going to be one out of the group that is going to say something, that is going to crack everybody up. And you could be all morbid but that one guy is going to do something, somehow, and it is going to be laughter and…I think it is normal. It is okay. It…The Marine Corps? I have never seen anybody get low. Even in the battlefield, when you are putting your friends away. They were there to do a job. And the Marine Corps is very, very good at doing their job. It—the last operation I was on, it turned out to be mostly a really long walk, which was fine. We started off at midnight and we walked until, humped, until noon. Had a 10-minute lunch then we—then it was about 6 pm. And we were going to split up. (02:00:28) Veteran: And the guys that I—2 of the guys that I was with—said, “Hey! Come on with us.” They were going to go up and over a hill. And I said, “No. I’ll see you on the other side.” I wanted to take the easy route. Well, those 2 guys that went there, one was named Parker and the other one was named Melvin Pool. And we heard the explosion. It was a 250-pound mine. And Pool was…Mel was killed instantly. And Parker was…He was the one that tripped it. And he lived about 3 days. Never regained consciousness, but he lived for about 3 days. And I just keep thinking why? If I would have gone there, maybe I could have done something. Maybe they wouldn’t have tripped the booby trap. And those words are really unique: I’ll see you on the other side. And it’s hard because you are…you feel guilty you didn’t go with them. And why didn’t I go with them? Well, I didn’t want to hump the hill. I just spent 18 hours humping and I wanted to do the easy route. But…couldn’t be there to help them. I wanted to. There were times where I wanted to. I would have died with them, easily. And it wouldn’t have mattered to me one bit. (02:02:24) �Interviewer: How much time did you have left when that happened? Veteran: This was September. Latter part of September. They only—they kept me on mine sweep team after that. I would go back to my regular battalion area for a while. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And they would then send me back to a…the sweep team. They didn’t…They said, “Nah, you did your share. You don’t need to go out in the field anymore.” And October and November and December mostly was a sweep team. Interviewer: Now by this time, had the personnel in your unit pretty well turned over with men rotating in and out? Or were there still guys that you had served with all along? Veteran: Oh, I am glad you asked that question. We had a Nicky New Guy who thought he knew everything. And you do. If you’re a corpsman, you have to think that way. Interviewer: Alright. We have kind of gotten toward the later stages of your tour. I’ve got a couple of kind of broader questions to ask. I mean, I have kind of asked about unit morale and things. Was there a difference in atmosphere between being in a base camp someplace and being up at the front lines, in terms of just attitudes of people or how they behaved? Veteran: I think that if you talk with most military guys, they would prefer the field versus being in the camp. You had to play soldier in the camp. You were a soldier in the field. And there is a big difference between the two. It was all spit and polish back at the base camp where you were doing what you were supposed to, what you were trained to do, in the field. And especially with the Nicky New Guys. (02:04:29) �Veteran: Nicky New Guys were…We called them FNGs. And they were a lot of fun. They were just as gung-ho as hell. We had this one that, he was 18 almost 19, but he was still 18 and he was going to go on his first operation. So, myself and 2 other corpsmen that had been on a lot of operations, we are telling him what to do and what not to do. One of the things was at night, when the mortars are going off, you stay in your hole. The guys will still be there and you’ll still be able to work on them after they stop. Don’t get out of your hole; it is the safest place to be. Well, he goes on this overnight operation and they get mortared. And someone yells, “Corpsman!” and he just gets up and takes off. Well, he gets hit with a piece of shrapnel and he gets hit with a piece of shrapnel in the head of the penis. And the body is a wonderful thing: everything went numb. He didn’t feel any pain but it bleeds a lot. So, you think you are dying. And he gets medevaced. He gets into the hospital and the first thing they do with wounds is debride them. They scrub them with a scrub brush. Unfortunately for him, the numbing went. They had to numb him with shots in order to make sure that he was going to be—he could take it. Well, the long story short, he thought he was—he didn’t even have sex yet—and he ended his sex life in Vietnam. And there is nothing there but nerves and they are still alive and it is mostly up here in your head. But you couldn’t convince this guy of it. And we gave him so much shit. We asked him if you wanted us to change his battle dressings. (02:06:39) Veteran: And as it turned out, it took about 4 weeks and finally healed. And he’s looking at one of these Playboy magazines in the crap room and he gets a hard on. And he tells everybody in the whole camp. He goes walking—he even told our commanding officer he got a hard on. Oh my God, was that embarrassing. He was—but it was not—we knew that he was going to be fine. That the only reason why nothing was working the way he wanted it to was because it was still �healing. And but, we made him pay for that the whole time. Told him, “Next time, you will listen. You will stay in your hole until it is done and then go take care of the wounded.” Interviewer: Yeah. So, you had a fair number of new guys coming because they were rotating men in and out all the time? Veteran: Yes. You are always…We came in individually. We left individually. And throughout that whole time, people are coming and going. I think there was…They probably left a month after I did. The 5th Marines came in and took part of 4th Shore Party. 5th Shore Party became 4th Shore Party. We occupied the same place because they didn’t have any other place to put them. And I think there was a couple of guys there that they came in country 30 days after I did and they were still there. But in between, the guys that were there when I showed up, they were all gone. And when I left, I was the oldest. I had the most seniority. (02:08:31) Interviewer: Right. Now, in principle, part of what they thought they were doing was you’d always have a veteran element on the ground. When you rotate the new man in, they could learn from the older ones and so forth. And so, you’d be able to maintain morale and unit performance and so forth. How well do you think that actually worked in practice? Veteran: Not worth a crap. Being honest with you. That works very well if you keep the guys there and the veterans are going to be there the same—the whole duration. When you send someone in individually, like they did us, you go through stages. And I think the first stage is you want to get in and blend in and be like the other guys. Then you become a veteran, either going—go out in the field once, you become a veteran. In about…You work well with others for about a few months. And I think from about 6 months on, then you—something clicks in the back of your head and it says, “You are over the hump. You got, you know, you’re on your way �down. All you have to do is survive.” And unfortunately, I think that’s what the vets, the veterans, the guys that knew what they were doing because they did it, started thinking: “I don’t care what I got to do. I am going to survive this. I am going to get the hell out of here.” And you did. Did it make me hesitate to go get a guy? No. But did I think about my own safety? You bet. Matter of fact, every man did, I think. (02:10:18) Interviewer: Now, did you keep an actual calendar for yourself and count days down? Veteran: Everybody kept a short-timer’s calendar. Mine was this nice little lady up there. Colored a little circle each time and she was fully covered by the time you left. Everybody had a short-timer’s calendar. Interviewer: Alright. Now, you mentioned sort of being back in the rear area and so forth. The spit and polish stiff, did you have officers or sergeants or whatever who got on your case if you didn’t look right or do something properly? Or…? Veteran: Medical is a little bit different. You still had to be reasonably, you know, spit and polish. But they kind of left medical people alone. We were there to treat them. They didn’t want to hassle us because they may have to come and see us one day. And so, I guess we were kind of lucky that way. In fact, when we—when I did fly back and landed in Okinawa to get shipped out, this gunny sergeant—we are all standing up—he said, “Attention!” And we all just look at him. “Attention!” and we just looked at him. He said, “Guys, I know you just came back,” he said, “But this is the States now and you got to do it. So, come on.” He was nice about it and he must have gone through several times. And so okay, then we did the soldier thing for him. But once I got back to Great Lakes, it was…They just want…It was spit and polish because you were in the Navy; back in the Navy. �Interviewer: Yeah. (02:12:06) Veteran: You had to wear the shine—your shoes didn’t have to be spit shined but they had to shine. And your clothes better have been looking pretty good. Interviewer: Alright. Now back in Vietnam, you had mentioned at one point when you were heading off to R and R, guys all started to produce their pot and so forth. Did you notice much by way of actual drug use in the places where you were? Veteran: Not where I was. I had heard that later in the latter part, in the mid ‘70s, they started really heavily. And I know they had problems with it but no, nobody…When you went in the field, you were cold stone sober because you needed to be cold stone sober. Nobody went—there is no such thing as a hallucination out in the battlefield. And you would not stand for it if anybody else was like that. He could get you killed. And you wouldn’t allow that. Interviewer: yeah. Now, would that go on if you were back on a base some place? Would there be…would you smell pot or were there guys lighting up or things like that? Or…? Veteran: Not…Actually, you know, no. Most of the Marines that I was with, at least in 1968, they were…We were drinkers. We had an enlisted men’s club that we could—you could drink beer. Now, they didn’t allow—the officers did not allow the enlisted to have liquor, hard liquor. They could get the beer but they couldn’t get the liquor. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: The Navy, however, especially Naval corpsmen, could get the liquor. Interviewer: Yeah. �Veteran: And when they got their monthly shot, or ration cards, they had a place for liquor on there. Well, they would give us that part of the ration card with the money and we would go and buy the liquor for them. Our ambulance would be full. There was only one requirement: we got one bottle off every case. And we had a well-stocked liquor cabinet, let me tell you. And they kind of—the officers really didn’t—if you got caught with it, you were in trouble. But they didn’t go looking for it. And most of the time, the guys spent their time in the enlisted club with Schlitz or Miller High Life or Budweiser. (02:14:35) Interviewer: Right. Okay, because you are also there—you are in Vietnam. You get through ’68 and ’68 is a pretty dramatic year back at home at the same time. You have Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy assassinated, you have race riots, you have the Democratic convention, you have all of this stuff going on. Were there any echoes or reverberations of any of that where you were? Veteran: I was going out in—we were going out in operations. We were in the back of a 6 by [6X6 truck] heading out when word came down that Martin Luther King was killed. And that was a shock for all of us, not just the guys who happened to have been black, but for all of us. I didn’t notice any repercussions. And again, they might have looked at me differently because I was medical. That I don’t know but I didn’t see it from across the way. When you go out in the field, one thing is going to happen: I am going to cover your back and you’re going to cover my back. And I’ll tell you what, I treated a lot of wounded and it’s all red. Their blood. And that’s the way they looked at it. You are brothers when you are out there. There’s no such thing as black and white when you’re out there. It was I will cover your back, you cover mine. �Interviewer: Okay. You get to the end of your—you survive your 12-month tour in Vietnam so you get into the early ’69. When do you actually physically leave Vietnam? (02:16:10) Veteran: Say that again. Interviewer: When did you actually leave Vietnam? Veteran: I left the…I actually left the—February 9th. I actually stayed, extended my tour, about 10 days because they were going to have a test for second class hospital corpsmen and so I stayed there because I would have been in transit when they gave the test. They give it all over the Navy at the same time. So, I took my test for second class in Vietnam before I left and left February 9th. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And it was really quiet in the plane until, came over the loudspeaker, “We are now leaving the Republic of Vietnam.” And then there was one huge party. It was great. Best thing. I mean, we just had a good time. And again, it was Continental. The stewardesses were there and they just had a good time. I mean, they were super nice ladies. Made you feel really good. And they’re, back in 1968, they were only the ones that really kind of welcome you home. Interviewer: Where did you land? Veteran: I land…To be honest with you, the base—I thought it was El Toro, near the LA airport. Driving distance to the LA— Interviewer: Right. �Veteran: And we got there about 3:30 in the morning. Got down, actually kissed the cement. I actually did when I landed. And they marched us into this huge hangar and told us, “We need you to be quiet. We want you to know we are going to have everybody here processed out. You will be heading towards the airport by 6 in the morning for leave.” And I just said, “Okay, we will follow your orders.” And you just do it. And they did. There was like 250 of us. And they processed all; everybody out. And we were, myself and like 5 other guys, climbed into a cab and headed for LA. (02:18:23) Veteran: And we thought they were doing us a favor. Well, they were in a way because around 7 o’clock, the protesters would show up. And the guys there told us they are pelted with tomatoes, eggs, and yelled at and cussed at. And they were not happy so we are—you’re not going to see that. So…And we didn’t; not there. We got in that cab and that cab driver…Oh my word. That was the scariest cab ride I ever saw. I didn’t know what smog was but you couldn’t see the end of the car. I mean, you couldn’t even see the hood of the car. And he’s going at 75 miles an hour and we knew we were going to die on a California highway after making it through Vietnam. That was like a 40-minute drive before he got us to the airport. And he dropped everybody off and I was almost as relieved to get out of that cab as I was getting on that plane to leave Vietnam. It was all—I mean, it was a nice feeling. But he must have known what he was doing because he got us there. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: The first—you know, I got in the airport and we already got military tickets and that. So, we are guaranteed we are getting on the plane. And I get to the window really early but there is a guy right there from the airport. And he looked at me and said, “Just back from ‘Nam, huh?” �I said, “Yep.” “You’re going to be lucky enough to get on the plane.” And it didn’t sink in that…I didn’t really care. (02:20:13) Veteran: They have bars here and nobody is shooting at me. I don’t have to duck mortars. I didn’t really care. Didn’t bother me then. Until I started thinking about it later. And you know what? I was the very last person to get on that plane. And he sat me—I don’t know how he did it—next to an Oriental. And she saw me and she said, “You come back from Vietnam?” I said, “Yes.” She asked the stewardess if she could move. And the stewardess said, “Okay. Yeah.” And she came back and she said, “You know, if there was a place in first class, I would have put you in first class but it was full.” And that kind of helped a little bit. But didn’t sink in. I mean, I didn’t get no tomatoes or eggs or spit on like a lot of guys. But there were certain little digs that, when you start to think about it, that it wasn’t a warm welcome. And a lot of—I know a lot of guys took their uniforms off, put on civilian clothes. But it is kind of hard to show that you weren’t over there because you have a very deep tan and you’ve got short hair and there’s only one place you are getting that. You’re automatically put in the military. So, I was damn proud of that uniform. That Marine green uniform? I bled to get that. And I wasn’t about to take it off. No. Interviewer: Now, are you—do you get a leave to go home for a while here? And then you have to report back? Or how does that work? (02:22:08) Veteran: I…No, when you left, they gave you 30 days. We had 30 days off. And I had to report back to Great Lakes Naval Hospital. And I got there and there’s a group of corpsmen there and they are all being assigned and I am the last guy in the room. And I am kind of like waiting. Now, how come I am last? And a lieutenant commander nurse came up to me and she said, “We have a problem and we are not quite sure how to handle it.” And I said, “Well, what is the problem?” “Well, we are going to assign you to Ward 10 North, which is upper respiratory, �hepatitis, mono, and pneumonia.” And I said, “Well, I don’t see a problem with that. I’ll get the hang of it.” And she said, “No, that’s not the problem. The problem is there is a guy up there who has been running this as a senior corpsman, because that is what you are going to be: a senior corpsman. He’s been running it for the last 2 months…” And I don’t know why they didn’t—I mean, this is the military for Christ sakes. You go up there and say, “You’re not senior corpsman anymore, this guy is because he is more senior than you are.” And I am a third class, waiting to get my second class stripes. Third class is E-4 or corporal in the Marines and E-5 is a sergeant. And if you, you know, you just go in there and tell him. That’s the way the military does things. But they didn’t want to do that. They thought it was real touchy. So, I go up there and I let the guy run the ward a little bit until I knew what I was doing. And slowly but surely, I didn’t have to do—I didn’t have to tell him anything. The fact that I had more experience than he did. I could draw—I could start IVs a whole heck of a lot quicker. I could do tests that he— they—hesitate to do. And he just realized that I was more senior. And he just kind of like took the role as the guy, the second guy, in command, which he would have been anyway. (02:24:21) Veteran: What really did it was on this ward, this guy—he was a thief. He stole some cars. And the other corpsmen were afraid of him. Big guy. I mean, he stood about 6 inches taller than I am. And so, I had to look up to talk to him. And we had to give him a test. We had to put a tube down his nose, into his stomach, and draw out some fluid so we could test his stomach fluid. And 2 corpsmen I sent down to do it. I am the senior corpsman; I am not supposed to do things. And so, I sent them down there. And they came back and they said, “We couldn’t do it.” I said, “Why?” “I was afraid.” I said, “Okay, come on.” So, I grab the glass of water and the tube and a cup for the test fluid. And I walk up to the guy and look at him. I said, “See this tube? I am going to put it in your nose. You’re going to drink the water to make it easier. I am going to put it in �your stomach and clear out some fluid. Got it?” “Yep.” “Okay.” So, I start putting it in his nose and he started drinking and it was done in 5 minutes. It was not a big deal. And I said, “Thanks.” I left the room. That was…turned the page. Okay, you’re the boss and we follow whatever you say and that was that way. The ward was pretty nice. Every once in a while, I got to help out on 9 North at the Great Lakes, which is isolation. And that’s where they get the meningitis and things they don’t know what to do [with] and they are afraid that they might be catching. And I assisted the doctor a couple times with spinal taps. Only this guy…He was out of it. And he needed a spinal tap because that’s the only way you can tell what he’s got. (02:26:34) Veteran: And so the doctor, who I really got to know really good, said—told me—“Come on down. I need your help.” So, I came down and, “I need to do a spinal tap on this guy and he is moving around in his bed.” And I said, “This is going to be difficult, isn’t it?” He said, “Yeah, I think it is going to be difficult.” And I thought for a second and I said, “No sir, it’s not. You just get ready and I’ll tell you when.” And he got all his packages ready and got his gloves on. And I got up on the bed with the guy and I stuck my knee into his stomach, hard. That made him double over and then I put one arm over around his head and neck and the other one behind his knees and I pulled him around like that with both my knees in his…So, he was right there and I said, “Can you do it now?” And doc says, “I’ll do it in a hurry.” And he did. I asked him to because when he was about done, I said, “Can you hurry up?” He said, “Why?” I said, “Well sir, he’s biting my leg and he’s not through the clothes yet but he’s going to be soon.” And so, he said, “It’s done.” And he pulled the needle out and we straightened him out. But I had teeth marks in one leg. But it was…It was an interesting time. Interviewer: Alright. Now, do you get—did you spend the rest of your time in the Navy at Great Lakes then? �Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you get—was it more like having a civilian job in a lot of ways now? (02:28:04) Veteran: Actually, yes. Once you were there. And that’s the way it usually is once you are out of boot camp. And once you are done with all of your training, it becomes a regular job. I drove back and forth and lived off base. And drove back and forth just like a regular job. And that was—that part was really nice. Yes, there was inspections. Yes, you had to be military appearance and—which was okay, that is what you are supposed to do. But it was—in the medical field, it’s like a regular job. And the officers are a lot easier to talk to. And you didn’t always have to call them ‘sir.’ Interviewer: Yeah. Now, did they make any effort to get you to stay in? Veteran: Actually, no because when…They had so many of them at that particular time. That— when I left, it was try to reduce the number of people. And so…And there were so many corpsmen that they didn’t need anybody. They had all they needed already. So, nope. It was— and it was really nice to run through that hospital doing all the final checks to get out of the service. Almost the same feeling as when you were getting ready to leave Vietnam. It was okay, this part of my life is done and I got to start over. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Very anxious to start over. Interviewer: So, what did you do when you got out? �Veteran: About a month before I got out, I took leave. And this was the hard part. I mean, I couldn’t believe that in near Grand Rapids, on the south side, a lot of industry. And I applied everywhere. And on the applications at that time, you had to put whether you were a veteran or not. And of course, you put veteran down. And after about—you fill out about 45-50 of them and they don’t want nothing to do with you because you’re the veteran, you stop putting veteran down. (02:30:11) Veteran: And they knew you were a veteran anyway. Just—my looks didn’t change that much. You still have that military appearance. And so, I actually thought I was going to have to draw unemployment but I had a brother-in-law that the only reason I got a job was because of the brother-in-law. And then I just…All I wanted to do was work. Get on with my life. Interviewer: What kind of job was it? Veteran: I actually—it started off as a processor for LB Johnson in Holland. Because when I came back, that’s where I ended up living: here in Holland. And worked there for a long time and went to a place called Acrofab in Zeeland. I tried selling insurance. I did a lot of different jobs and then I finally ended up at Padnos Iron and Metal: a scrap recycler. And I worked there for 30 years. And now I am retired. Been married for 33 years to my wife. Got 3 great sons. I had 4 but one of them died. But the 3 I got are still with me and going great. Proud of them all. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you get involved eventually with any veterans groups or things like that? Or…? Veteran: I am glad you asked that question because I probably would have not brought anything up. It was amazing how the veterans groups treated veterans when they came back. We tried to join a VFW. You couldn’t join a VFW because it wasn’t a war. Tried to join the DAV; couldn’t �do that because this was just a police action. So, we just said, “Screw it. I mean, I don’t need you.” And a few years later, late ‘70s, early ‘80s, Vietnam Veterans of America started. (02:32:26) Veteran: And my wife Pat, she saw this small little article; hey, there is some vets getting together. Vietnam vets going to start a chapter. And I said, “No, I am not going to go because they’re just a bunch of cry-babies. Going to say oh we got robbed. We did this.” She said, “Well, just go anyway and if they do that, just leave.” So, I went there and there was 7 of us. And we were the original members of the Holland chapter. And make a long story short, our chapter just celebrated its 30th anniversary. And we have 93 members, active members. It’s hard to get them out because Vietnam veterans aren’t necessarily joiners now. And we act—we are very proud: we have a Michigan Wall with all the names of all those that were killed. And it’s been highly received around the area or wherever we bring it. And we just upgraded it. We went—we actually had another wall made so you can do imprinting better. And we also are—it’s just about done with getting the names. And they are going to send it in and we are going to have a section of the wall for the last few wars from the Gulf. In fact, it will all—it will go back down to Saudi Arabia and Africa when we lost those 200 Marines? All the Michigan names are on it and all the newer names are on that wall. So, then we display it wherever we are asked to. (02:34:12) Veteran: It is well-received. I am very proud of it. We really reach out to the veterans. And I am very proud of the fact that I lead a group, myself and one other guy, we lead a group support group for veterans, for all wars. It is called ‘Vet to Vet.’ And it doesn’t replace the VA for taking care of them but what it does do, it offers a safe haven so-to-speak to come in and talk. And while it is endorsed by the VA, it’s not part of it. And—but the VA likes us to do this so the guys will want to get to the VA to get some more help. This is to help bring out their problems. �Interviewer: Right. Now, did you find yourself having to deal with levels of things like survivor’s guilt or other kinds of PTSD symptoms eventually? Veteran: Anger. I still flinch at loud noises. I hate fireworks. Every Vietnam veteran I know, most of them don’t like fireworks. It’s hard to…Other than anger, it is hard to show emotion. I have a lot of the—I am 70% PTSD. And we are working out of it. What’s nice about the ‘Vet to Vet’ is not only am I helping other veterans but I also help myself at the same time. And I’ve gone through the VA. And it’s because of the VA that I am doing the ‘Vet to Vet.’ They were looking for a couple guys and I volunteered again. So…But it is very nice to see the guys when they come in and you know you’re helping them. So…I have actually been helping vets since ’68 anyway. (02:36:15) Interviewer: Now, do you see, as you look back to your time in the service—I mean, you brought some baggage out with you but do you see positive effects on you? Are you in some ways better or wiser because you had that experience? Veteran: Yeah, it’s affected us in a lot of bad ways. We know. But in the good ways? Yeah: selfconfidence, self-assurance, you’re not afraid to tackle things. If, you know—there are no problems that are bad. I’ll take you back to Vietnam and I’ll show you problems that are bad. But in the workforce? There is nothing bad. They’re just obstacles to overcome. And I don’t think I would have thought that way if I hadn’t gone through what I did. It’s a…It was a big help. It’s amazing because when—in fact, we talked about this at the last ‘Vet to Vet’ meeting. When we came home, we felt like we were grown up. And everybody around us were still kids. They didn’t mature. And I just believe that, in a way, yeah, Vietnam did make you stronger. Weaker in a lot of places but, overall, I think it made us stronger. And would we do it again? I haven’t met a �Vietnam veteran that said, even given the same circumstances and knowing what was going to go, we would still go back. Interviewer: Well, it makes for a very powerful story so I’d like to close here by thanking you for taking the time to tell it to me today. Veteran: You’re welcome. Thank you. (02:38:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JakubczakR1329V Title A name given to the resource Jakubczak, Richard (Interview transcript and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jakubczak, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Jakubczak is from Grand Rapids Michigan and was born in May of 1946. After high school he worked at Lowell Engineering and as a farmer. He briefly attended Kendall School of Design, but dropped out in 1966 and he and his brother joined the Navy and volunteered for training as medical corpsmen. He completed his basic training and medical training at Great Lakes, Illinois, and then went to Camp LeJeune, North Carolina, for field training. He then worked at Great Lakes Naval Hospital for ten months, and went to Vietnam in February, 1968. He was assigned to the First Shore Party, which provided logistical support to Marine combat units in the field, and was regularly attached to combat units when on operations. He was based near Da Nang, and supported Marine units involved in Operations Allen Brook and Mameluke Thrust. He left Vietnam in February, 1969, and completed his enlistment at Great Lakes. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Marine Corps United States. Navy Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56d2555bc0232db486f6335d789957c3.mp4 cda97747f0fedf3d9c133a3c6f92d43f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/08df525b5cee1c521c3cca183ce1b892.pdf bf258dd6daacfb7f976ea2e237226660 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Marvin Jalving (00:50:51) (00:10) Background Information • • • • • • • • • Marvin was born in 1924 in Holland, MI His parents had 8 children, six of whom were in the service during World War Two He entered the service in July of 1943 Marvin’s father had been a school teacher and then later became a banker They moved from Montana to Michigan when his father stopped teaching His mother had been a house wife His family did not suffer much during the depression because his father’s bank stayed open the whole time Marvin did not pay much attention to news of the war while he was in high school Marvin did not enjoy school or do well in his classes, but graduated in June of 1943 (3:30) Enlistment in the Air Corps • • • • • Marvin was very interested in flying and found the Air Corps to be more glamorous with better conditions than other branches of service He traveled from Holland to Chicago and then took a troop train to Miami, FL He trained through the fall of 1943 Basic training was demanding with marching, calisthenics, and waking up very early every day It was a nice area for training with good food and nice weather (6:15) Advanced Training • Marvin began student aviation training in New York • He then left on a troop train on New Year’s Day to travel to Nashville, TN for placement • The men could place into positions of gunner, pilot, navigator, or bombardier • Marvin took another train to Colorado for armament training • The classes were very different and difficult • He had gunnery training in Texas • He took another train to Nebraska and was assigned to a B-24 for flight training • They flew over Colorado and New Mexico dropping fake bombs over targets • Marvin began flying in B-17s, which were much safer and newer • He then went to Kansas for outfitting for overseas (11:00) Going Overseas • Marvin took a troop train to New Jersey for orientation and then boarded the Queen Elizabeth • The food on the ship was English and horrible and there were thousands of men on the ship • They traveled with a convoy and landed in Scotland • On Christmas Eve of 1944 they took a train to England • They stayed at a base near Ipswich and his sister worked in a nearby hospital �(17:40) Flight Missions • Marvin began flying missions in 1945 toward the end of the war • They were shooting out railroad yards and gasoline refineries • Most of the missions were in Germany with a few in France and England • The Germans were no longer sending up fighters because they were out of fuel • The Germans were still sending up a lot of flak (23:40) Missions Gone Wrong • Marvin had been flying over France when the oxygen stopped working and he had to eject • He woke up disoriented and was found by a French farmer and his son • They rolled him a cigarette out of some newspaper and his wife gave him some apple brandy, which made him pretty drunk • An Army truck came and picked him up and it took them six days to get back to England • They continued flying missions, which began to take a psychological toll on many of the men (29:45) Free Time on the Base • Marvin often rode bikes, exercised, went to church, wrote letters, and spent time in the recreational hall • After the war he was still in England doing boring jobs, such as KP • He took a liberty ship to Boston and was on furlough in December of 1945 • He had furlough for one month and had been with his family during VJ day (33:15) the Pacific • Marvin was sent to Santa Ana, CA and scheduled to go to the Pacific • He was angry that he might have to go overseas again • He spent more time on KP in CA and soon found that he had enough points to be discharged • He was sent back to Wisconsin and relaxed until he was finally discharged in October of 1945 (34:25) Michigan • Marvin moved back with his parents and began taking classes at Hope College • He did not like school and began working in transportation /trucking • His overall service experience was good, but many men got psychological problems because they could not accept the things that happened (39:35) Air Corps Reunion • The 34th bomb group has a reunion every year • Marvin has been to reunions in Tennessee, Colorado, Cincinnati, and Michigan • They are harder to attend as he gets older • He feels that he had been brainwashed by the Air Corps, but was fortunate that he was never wounded and that all his family members are ok (43:05) Showing of Pictures �/0/:' /'6 --r:o tq OLD I:. \1 13 r d~=< !-' C ;/2. /y fI c..1-l1 e 'f 6-A rJ uj:; IN ~:< /: ii!. <.~ (p (L.j.! 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I~!A/IJ, 1D ~T 1-\ A5S;6-r,J ~''):, TrfE, ~r!\ $.k O~ C.-J~,4rl6:£ 6- SOf<'t;:: ~Y'5HIP '1'-~4~1<,;:~ To /-~ \r CJ 'v 0. rf LA!~ Rf:-AS~/GJ-j­ t tJ ~ 4~. \lJ,l+iL.~f4t'>Me: \(~ PI1lHAPPr:,..,\ F-.'h. .r H-/t D 10 KEPOt<-! 'f"OrZSANTA A"!~I C/iLlFoItNIA,. t1HEte.. /v1'1 <u{2../-O!JGf1, Wfi/LEIvVAS n+t:?f~E I\, Y\! H I L.E ) POI titS- NoT Iv{ OCrl 0 f II>( l\! , [1, ~~,'.p__ , /",'\,,!, (:)(7:' 11 tJp K1 1) VT'! n y{//!.>: j DIS.c.rU1;:'&::=. r wAS &O','\!~ TO 1{'2..U!~,>~ '::'5LJ;; rtY. MADISON; 't-"/r;,e.,1"NJ) f3E!/'':c TvjO OTI-}£\Z &-·U'/s f!6-A/ JUST "ToO,"" IT f:/\S:; Vf../-nL r 'ilA.5 I fd?" � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JalvingM Title A name given to the resource Jalving, Marvin (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jalving, Marvin Description An account of the resource Marvin Jalving enlisted in the Army Air Corps in July of 1943 and was discharged in October of 1945. He went to England late in 1944 and flew 23 missions in B-17s, most of which were in Germany taking out train yards and gasoline refineries. After flying missions in Europe, George had been sent to California and scheduled to leave for the Pacific. He was relieved when he found that he had enough points to be discharged before he was sent to the Pacific. Personal narrative appended to interview outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCauslin, Kelly (Interviewer) Spring Lake District Library (Spring Lake, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army. Air Corps World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/578d84c3e207eb36b8478c39ed9fe494.pdf 28eb236eb1efb14536f6cfdc5a355566 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Michael Gaylord James Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/14/2012 Biography and Description A resident of Chicago’s Roger’s Park neighborhood, Mike James was the first leader of Rising Up Angry, a white, working-class group formed in the late 1960s and early 1970s that sought to organize residents of Lakeview/Uptown and offer a range of free or low cost services to the community including a free legal clinic, free health service, a women’s discussion group, occasional free pet-care clinic, and a variety of community events. The group also published a newspaper, the only underground newspaper aimed specifically at white, blue-collar greaser youth in Chicago at that time. The paper presented a combination of international news with news from local Chicago neighborhoods. Rising Up Angry members were also known for their distinctive way of dressing – dark banlon shirts, leather jackets, baggy pants, and pointed toe shoes. The group modeled its efforts off community-based programs run by the Black Panther Party, Young Patriots and Young Lords. They also sought to convince white, working-class youth not to fight with other rival groups but to unite with the Panthers, Young Lords, and others to fight racism, injustice, and the forced displacement of poor and working-class families from their homes in Uptown, Lakeview, Lincoln Park, and the other near downtown and lakefront areas of Chicago. The organization lasted until 1975. Today, Mr. James owns and operates, a theatre, a journal, a general store and the Heartland Café in Chicago’s Rogers Park Neighborhood and features a progressive Saturday morning live Radio Program on WLUW 88.7 FM. �yl_James_Michael JOSE JIMINEZ: Give me your name, date, and date of birth, and then we can start from there. This is an oral history project. MICHAEL JAMES: Well, good morning. I forget that we don’t know what time of day it is. Hi, I’m Michael James, actually Michael Gaylord James, and I was born in 1942, January 16, 1942 in New York City. JJ: Okay. And Gaylord, that’s your -- MJ: Middle name. JJ: That’s your middle name. MJ: I got a lot of nicknames. But that’s my whole -- Michael Gaylord James. I’ve gone by Michael Gaylord James, I’ve gone by Michael James, by Mike James, and then I had some aliases over time. JJ: So okay, your parents, were they active at all in the movement? Who were they? MJ: My dad is Hal James, born in St. Joseph, Missouri. My mother is Florence James, she was born in the Bronx. They got married a few years before I was born. They had both worked in [00:01:00] advertising in radio production. My father I would have to say was a liberal Democrat. My first political campaign, I remember, was Adlai Stevenson, who was a very distant relative of our family. But that was -- my dad was real active in that campaign. I know that my dad had a number of friends who were activists in the Communist Party because when I became involved in the movement he basically said, “This is serious stuff and you just want to be really careful.” And he knew people who were blacklisted 1 �through the 1950s through the McCarthy Era and he would not buy any products from Wisconsin during the McCarthy time. That’s Senator Joe McCarthy back in the 1950s. JJ: And he was from Wisconsin. MJ: So his favorite beer was Miller High Life, he stopped drinking that, etcetera. Later he had a beef with Lyndon Johnson [00:02:00] over some TV deal that he was involved with and he wouldn’t buy anything from Texas, which probably was really good. My mom? I don’t think of my mom as political. My mom passed away in October of 2011, she was 97 and a half. I think she had really good values and was principled, certainly around race and the gay issues as it came up in our family. She had -- her mom, my grandma, was a Republican in the old school sense of Republicans, but my mom was, as far as I know, always a Democrat, and was quite supportive of our work in Civil Rights, Anti-War Movement, that kind of thing. My dad played more of a devil’s advocate. I remember him when the Montgomery Bus Boycott [00:03:00] was happening in 1956, which would have made me fourteen, I remember my dad kind of asking what I would call challenging questions. I could have even called them racist. But I think that was pretty much helping me in his sense of how to get me to think more. Because we -- in our family is an adopted brother who is an African American and my dad I think in the times of the 1960s, he was out of work -- JJ: What was his name? MJ: Hal James. He was out of work and he produced -- JJ: I mean your brother. 2 �MJ: Jim Arden is my brother and he was a hot shot -- he is a hot shot weight lifter. He’s in his seventies. He was Junior Mr. Connecticut fourth over forty Mr. America. My dad did produce a concert I remember with Odetta in the 1960s and then he produced a play called Hallelujah Baby with Leslie Uggams. And so I think in his way [00:04:00] he was trying to stay in tune with the times. My mother actually when Dr. King was killed, she and some other women started a daycare in the Saugatuck Congregational Church in my hometown of Westport, Connecticut. She always prided herself on doing Civil Rights kind of oriented work and helping with fundraising for Tougaloo or Tuskegee, one of those colleges. So that’s my folks. JJ: And what about your -- you mentioned that there was a gay issue in the family. MJ: Actually the gay issue is my son Jesse, who was around in the early days of Rising Up Angry, when he was thirteen or so he came out. That was interesting for me. I was certainly already aware of gay rights and basically supportive. [00:05:00] But then when you have it in your own family it’s like ooh, you do a double-take, and that -- there was some challenging moments for Jesse growing up and some situations he got into. He ended up marrying his boyfriend, whose dad was a Greek communist, and they have a daughter. They live in New York City. He was married in California back when it was legal to do that. I guess it is again. Then I have a daughter, Coya Paz who teaches at DePaul in the theater department, and she was the co-founder of the Teatro Luna, and is quite a playwright, and a good actress herself. And she married her girlfriend, Nina, so it’s my daughter in law. I don’t know if they’re legally married, but they have a 3 �baby, Coya actually carried the baby, Ida Rocket. I have two of my [00:06:00] six blood -- my five -- how many blood kids? Five blood kids are gay, three aren’t, and then my other kids from my marriages are not gay either. JJ: What are the other names? What are some of the other children? MJ: My first son was Jesse James, Jesse Hampton Nathaniel William Floyd Robin James, and then Coya Paz is my daughter, and those are my two gay kids. And then Casey Blue James, who just graduated from Yale, and is in New York looking into the publishing industry. She’s quite a good poet. Then I have a son Hal James, Hal Coltrane Cadien James, his name is, and he toured with a band that was getting a lot of play, the Smith Westerns. He toured Europe, Japan, the United States, a bunch of times in both the States in Europe. He didn’t really enjoy the life of the road and he wants to be a screenwriter, [00:07:00] so he’s taking screenwriting classes, working on some screenplays, and works at the Heartland Café, which is a restaurant I co-founded in 1976. Then my youngest son is Cadien Lake Jack Henry James. He’s eighteen. He just graduated from Jones Commercial-- excuse me, Jones College Prep -- it used to be Jones Commercial -- in Chicago. He has a band called Twin Peaks and they are currently on the road. They played in Tacoma last night. They’re in Seattle and Redmond, Washington today, tomorrow, which will be the 15 of July they’re in Portland, and then they go down the coast. They go across to Austin, Texas, and then they go up to Topeka, Omaha, Lawrence, Kansas, back to Omaha. I’m going to join them for the last four days of the tour. They had a kick-off concert last Sunday here in the backyard. It was quite a scene, the police only came 4 �once. They’re quite good, so you might [00:08:00] want to go to Twinpeaksmusic.blogspot.com to see his stuff. I always thought my kids would be athletes, but they’re musicians and poets. I also have, through my first wife Stormy, I have two stepsons Chuck and David. Both of them were around during the Rising Up Angry period. Then I have my wife Paige had a daughter Molly Cane is her name, now she’s married, her last name is Dodin, and she’s a teacher in New York City, and about to have a baby, it could happen today. JJ: What about your brothers and sisters? MJ: Oh, my brothers and sisters. JJ: Who are they? MJ: I’ve got -- beside my adopted brother Jim Arden, who I talked about. He adopted our family. He and I had met in the weight room in the YMCA in my hometown. [00:09:00] I have a brother Beau James and he is in the toy business. He’s not a political activist but is certainly a good thinker and would have to be called a Democrat of some sort. Then I have a sister Melody James, who is an actress and a teacher. After all the stuff that went on at San Francisco State in the old days she came to work with JOIN Community Union, which was a predecessor to Rising Up Angry, which is an organization I founded. Melody has a daughter and a husband. She was there for a number of years in the San Francisco Mime Troupe, so she did a lot of political plays, she wrote and acted in both. JJ: Okay, you mentioned Rising Up Angry. We’re going to get to that. How [00:10:00] long -- New York, how long were you there? MJ: I was in New York for the first two years of my life. I grew up in Connecticut. My 5 �dad was in advertising at that point. He had been an actor. He came out of St. Joseph, Missouri, grew up in Chicago on South Shore, went to the University of Chicago, went to Reed out in Oregon for a while, I guess he had screwed up at U of C. Then he went back to U of C, got involved in theater, knew Edgar Lee Master, Thornton Wilder, a number of people, Sherwood Anderson, and ended up producing Man of La Mancha, Hallelujah Baby, etcetera. When I was two -- I don’t really remember anything about New York City except that I think I was born in a hospital near the UN, which for me was always symbolic that I was near people from different places, and getting along, and working together. We moved to Westport, Connecticut [00:11:00] to a little house on a place called Red Coat Road. One of the most distinct activities I had beside helping the farmer down the road butcher cows and pigs, and riding around on a Harley Davison at the age of ten with his son who had just come back from the Korean War, Victor, I remember really being hostile to New York. I kind of took New York as wealth because there were wealthy New Yorkers in our town and people who would come for the summer. And when people would ask directions from a Cadillac with New York plates, we would always give them the wrong stuff. We had a little group called The Night Riders. Actually, we were kind of -- this was before I was ten, so we were really young juvenile delinquent types, because we would try and sabotage construction. I don’t think we ever did anything that mattered, but sabotaged construction of new houses that went up in the area. The other thing I remember very distinctly has to do with the notion of revolution. Growing up in New England, [00:12:00] there was a lot of attention to the Revolutionary 6 �War, and in my hometown down at the beach there were some cannons on the beach. And we had always heard how the British troops marched up what is now Route 7 to Danbury to burn the hat factories. The road I grew up on was Red Coat Road, which is the Red Coats were the British, who were the enemy at the time. And so we basically saw ourselves as defenders of the good people, the small people, the regular folks, and anti to colonialism and imperialism at an early age. JJ: When did you move to Chicago? MJ: Well, Cha-Cha, the first time I came to Chicago was in December of 1942. I would have been eleven months old. I came to visit my grandparents who lived on Euclid Avenue along South Shore. I’m not sure of the exact place. I went by there [00:13:00] a couple of times in my life. I came back to Chicago when I was thirteen or fourteen with my father, who was in radio and TV advertising business, and we came out, and while he was working, I remember we stayed at the Executive House down on Wacker Drive, and I took a bus up -- JJ: What year was this? MJ: Well at fourteen, let’s say I’m fourteen, so it’d be 1956 or so. I was already in hot rod cars, which took a lot of my time. Football, girls, hot rod cars, and early political consciousness. I took a ride on a bus up Lake Shore Drive to Irving Park, and I took a bus west on Irving Park to a place called Ray Erickson Speed Shop, which I do not believe is still there. But it was a shop where you would get equipment for your hot rod car. I remember as a kid [00:14:00] walking in and kind of looking at the stuff. So that was my second visit to Chicago. I had been 7 �with family, I think, in Michigan. I don’t know if we came to Chicago earlier than that. But I came back to Chicago in the fall of -- into the Chicago area in the fall of 1960 to go to Lake Forest College. I ended up there kind of by accident. I had applied to -JJ: Where are you living? By Lake Forrest? MJ: I lived in Lake Forest in a dormitory and then I lived in some wealthy folks’ home doing work for them in exchange for room and board. I did that at two different places. And I also lived at Arden Shore Home for Boys, which were kids who were smart but were a little troubled or wise ass. It was up in Lake Bluff, just south of the Great Lakes Naval Training Center. And I worked there -- JJ: Were you sent there or did you -- MJ: No, I worked there. (laughs) I worked there. We would -- and I also worked at Lake Forest Academy [00:15:00] washing dishes in the fall of 1960, I believe. The first time I lived in Chicago was in the summer of 1964. I had graduated from Lake Forest with honors. I got a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship to the University of California Berkeley, is where I took it. I could have gone to -- I had applied to U of C, to Columbia in New York, to Brandeis, but I was interested in -already then I think I was kind of interested in the more radical sociologists. JJ: So you were studying sociology? MJ: I was studying sociology. So I got a job in the summer of 1964 working for a guy named Mel Diamond who was working with Notre Dame Anthropology Department. They were doing a study on Southern White Migrants. I didn’t know a lot -- I don’t know what ever happened with that study, I’m not in touch 8 �with Mel Diamond, [00:16:00] but I spent that summer in Uptown not too far from where I saw you one time on Montrose, on Kenmore Avenue, and I would hang out with these people. An old guy named [Penny Menzer?], who taught me how to roll cigarettes. Which I have not rolled many cigarettes in my life, but I’ve rolled a lot of other things, but I learned that skill when I was there in Uptown in 1964. I also remember drinking Jim Beam from little bottles under the L Track and learning to do various picks on the guitar. I learned how to make biscuits and gravy. I would just hang out, and then go home, and then write notes for these guys. What they did with them I’m not sure. JJ: When did you -- you mentioned political consciousness -- I know it was in the family, but when did you start to do that? MJ: I think I always had [00:17:00] an inclination to stick up for the downtrodden and poor people. I remember at the age of ten being in Florida with my relatives. My dad’s family, a lot of them lived down there, they had moved down there. I remember we were playing with two of my cousins, maybe more of them, and the maid -- they had a maid who was African American -- and the maid’s daughter was there. We were all playing together. I remember my Aunt Helen telling us to go play in the backyard. I asked her why did we have to play in the backyard. She very matter-of-factly said that the neighbors wouldn’t like it in the front yard. That was my first kind of awareness. On that same trip with my father, we went to a business partner of his and a good friend whose stepmother and I guess father had a [00:18:00] turpentine plantation up near Jacksonville -- up there Tallahassee, Florida. We were out on this plantation and I remember driving 9 �around with the foreman in a pickup truck with a rifle in the back. There were all these literally shacks where the Black plantation workers lived. And just being kind of aware of that. That same time on that trip, I think it was probably sitting around, it could have been at a restaurant somewhere, or somewhere with my father, but I think it was actually on this plantation, I referred to the African American waiters, the help, as, “Sir”. My dad called me out on that and of course I held it against my dad for a long time. He said, “You don’t call people who are waiting on you, sir.” And maybe you don’t. I did as a kid. [00:19:00] So that was a real kind of an eye opener. When the Montgomery Bus Boycott started, I was totally involved in that as a young kid, reading about that, following that. In a lot of ways, Black people were my heroes. It took me till much later to realize there were plenty of Black people who were not so noble and all that. But I remember following the Civil Rights Movement. JJ: How -- through books or? MJ: Through the news. My dad was in radio TV so we had a TV from 1948 on. Then when all the stuff was coming down in the South, watching that. I actually as a kid started reading The New York Times. We got The New York Times on Sunday and I would look at the sports section and the ads in the back of that and I obviously read some other stuff. [00:20:00] I also -- my first hero I remember, it was Jackie Robinson of the Dodgers. My dad was a Dodger fan and we went to a guy named Barney [Carlin?] who worked for Castro Convertible Sofas in New York, who was one of my dad’s clients. They took me to a Dodgers game in probably 1947 or 1948. Maybe 1949, I’m not sure, but I could look it up. It was 10 �nine to eight going into the second inning, or was nine to nothing, nine to eight, when the Cardinals were beating the Dodgers, and the Dodgers came back and won it by a run. So Barney Carlin considered me to be a good luck charm, so I got to go to a lot of Dodgers games and they always won. He took me to a game in I think 1952 when Bobby Thompson of the Giants hit the homerun off [00:21:00] of Ralph Branca and the Dodgers lost the pennant. I remember as a kid crying. I had eaten about ten hot dogs, I had my Dodgers hat, I had my Dodger flag, pennant, and I was just totally devastated. Then I was the jinx in my mind. I was even hesitant to go when the Bears won the Super Bowl down in New Orleans, I had tickets, I went with my business partner Katie Hogan, took the train down there, it was a hell of an adventure, and I remember being really kind of worried that I would jinx the team. But the jinx was off, the Dodgers won - excuse me, the Bears won. Since then the White Sox have won, the Bulls have won, I’ve been to some games, I don’t think I have much to do with the determination or the outcome of these great sporting events. You asked about becoming politically aware and socially conscious. I have to say that in high school I had some teachers who were pretty good. I had a guy [00:22:00] named Gordon Hall who -JJ: What high school? MJ: Staples High School in Westport, Connecticut. I graduated in 1960. I was head of the -- I lost the run for the president of the high school, so I was head of the hall patrol, and I think we were a little corrupt because I think we probably smoked in the parking lot. I also was involved in hot rod cars, and to me that was 11 �kind of a class issue. I remember writing these kind of -- I look back on them now, I might be a little critical -- but it was talking about how we built our own cars, and we raised money to fix our cars, and that kind of stuff. Clearly I was a middle class or upper middle class kid, but there were kids in that town who were a lot wealthier, and there were people who had sports cars that their parents bought for them. We saw that as a cutting-edge issue. A little bit later, I don’t know if you want to address it, but I did go to Mexico on a motorcycle trip during 1962, and that a big [00:23:00] eye-opener. JJ: What happened there? MJ: Well even before I get to that, let me go in chronological order. In 1960 I’m applying to colleges. My dad had these great notions that maybe I would go to prep school for an extra year and then I’d play football at Stanford. I don’t think I was that good. I applied to University of Virginia on my dad’s insistence. His friend, the same one whose relatives had this plantation in Florida, had a daughter named Joan Bennett, who married Teddy Kennedy. While we were in - I’m going back to the Florida trip -- I remember hanging out with Joan as a kid and she had skinned her kneecaps while falling through a cattle crossing. My dad -- I’m getting a little lost here. In the summer of 1960 -- [00:24:00] we’re talking about my college. You’re going to have to edit it. JJ: We can move back and forth. MJ: Okay, so my dad wanted me to go to the University of Virginia. I got a nice letter from Joan Bennett Kennedy telling me what a great place it was, how they had tennis, and golf, and all this stuff. And I was just totally turned off my it. On my 12 �application I put down what books had you read, I put Native Son by Richard Wright, I put Strive Toward Freedom by Dr. King, in a lot of ways I think I did sabotage my application. I was on the waiting list to go to University of Virginia. I wanted to go to University of Connecticut where my girlfriend Susan [Lumm?] was going to go. My dad didn’t really want -- he wanted me to go away to school, leave Connecticut. I had applied also to University of Arizona and Arizona State, but I applied to the College Placement Service. It was an outfit that takes a single application and sends it to a number of places. Lo and behold I got accepted at many colleges here in the [00:25:00] Midwest. I had never heard of any of them. But on a Saturday morning when the letter came from Lake Forest, my dad said, “Oh, that’s a great place. I used to go to dances up there.” Okay, dad. Having graduated from high school, not sure where I’m going to go to college, got in my 1940 Ford hot rod car with its 1953 Olds engine with another guy named Buzz [Willouer?], and we took off to work in a cannery. My dad had set me up with this job. His dad had worked for Libby, had come out of - my dad was born in St. Joseph, Missouri, had come to Chicago. JJ: Libby, Indiana, right? MJ: Libby Food. My grandpa Roy had gotten my father jobs at various places, so my dad had the same notion that he could get me jobs. He did. He got me a job in Sunnyvale, California, just outside of San Jose, working in a Libby plant in the summer of 1960. [00:26:00] I leave home, I drive across to Lake Forest where I just gotten this acceptance letter, I stopped in late afternoon, I meet the director of admissions, took off, that night we crossed the old bridge going across the 13 �Mississippi River at St. Louis and into Missouri -- or into Iowa -- no, into Missouri. Iowa is another trip. And I headed west. I had a lot of adventure on that trip. That was an eye opener too. The car overheated in Joplin, Missouri. My friend Buzz got left there in the hospital because when it overheated, I was taking the cap off the radiator as he came bopping over to say what’s happening, and it exploded, and he got burned. I then drove on myself. I stopped in Oklahoma City. I had just seen the movie Psycho with my girlfriend in Connecticut, so I thought that was the same road to California that I was on [00:27:00] in that movie. I distinctly remember being in a shower at a motel with my back to the wall with my fists ready if any mother came after me. (laughs) I drove -- I picked up some hitchhikers, people going to join the Marine Corp in San Diego. I went through some towns in Arizona with Native people on reservations. I remember being at a truck stop in California as you come out of the desert, not too far from Mexicali, where there were Blacks, and Latinos, and whites, and it was the morning. I remember driving up the coast. Then I ended up letting another hitchhiker, a migrant worker who was going to pick peaches in Fresno, he wanted to get off -- I was taking the cut off to San Jose. I pulled over, the car apparently stalled, and we had to jump start it. I think we had just jump [00:28:00] started it, he was out of the car, I jumped back in the car, the lights were not on, I got rear ended by people coming home from a wedding on a Sunday night. I was pulled out of a burning car by a truck driver. I remember waking up on the other side of the road. This would be Highway 101. There’s a song back in the time called The Fool was the Terror of Highway 101. I 14 �remember saying, “There’s a guy in that car!” And I started to go run across the street and the truck driver grabbed me and said, “If he’s in there now, he’s dead.” Turns out he was okay and the police had talked to him later. That summer though I worked for just a number of weeks because I wanted to go back and see my girlfriend, which was an issue. My dad was disappointed I didn’t stay longer. But I did work at the Sunnyvale Cannery for a period of time. I have my union card still. I joined the teamsters, the Cannery Workers Union. I worked with a Black kid and a [00:29:00] Mexican kid and we worked with the garbage dump. I had to go into these vats in the giant freezer buildings to clean out the sludge of the antifreeze in these big moon suits kind of gloves keeping us warm. It’s twenty below zero in there. It was an eye opener for me. Because the main thing, the distinct thing I remember was I showed up to work and there were lines of lines of people waiting for jobs, Mexicans, Blacks, white, probably some Filipinos, that was the nucleus of what formed the Farm Workers Union later, so I’m assuming there were Filipinos there too. Maybe, maybe not. But I showed up to work and I had a job. I got to walk right in, I got to fill out my papers, pay my union dues, all that stuff, and all these other people are waiting for a job. That’s a distinct [00:30:00] memory that I have talking about that and saying I really understand privilege and in this case probably white-skinned privilege, which is a term [Nolan Nathan?], who we both knew, he used to -- he’d bring up and it’s probably still really relevant today. So that summer was kind of an eye opener for me. I went back to home. My dad picked me up at the airport, the car had burned up and was in the junk yard. I do have photographs of it. My dad 15 �gave me that kind of look that dads give their kids when they’re disappointed. I got to see my girlfriend Susan and then my parents and I drove out to Lake Forest College where they left me. My first distinct memory at Lake Forest College was someone coming up to me and telling me I’m supposed to wear this beanie. They had the little red and black thing you put on your head. I had been voted the coolest in my high school. There’s a photograph in my high school yearbook of Casey Cutmore and myself shivering [00:31:00] like we’re the coolest. But I thought of myself as a cool dude and I certainly was not going to wear this beanie. Then my dad said to me, he said, “I don’t think things have changed that much in twenty years. You should wear it.” I said, “Maybe thirty years, dad, or forty.” I don’t know how long ago. But Lake Forest was a great place to go. I went there by accident. They were recruiting kids from the east who didn’t get into probably better prep schools or better colleges, but had come out of prep schools, so there were a number of those folks. There were a number of what I would call North Shore screw ups, people from some wealth and money from the North Shore who had gone to eastern schools or other schools, and were living at home for some reason, or had screwed up. Then there were a number of people who were kind of upwardly mobile working class. One example was a beer truck driver’s kid who I knew. [00:32:00] Lake Forest was sort of changing its vibe. They had a number of young teachers out of University of Chicago, older teachers, all kinds of interest-- I’m sure at every school there are really interesting professors. A guy named Dr. [Roose?], Jerry Gerasimo, [Tomasovic?], there just were a lot of people that I think gave me 16 �some direction. Because I wanted to be I thought at that time -JJ: You had conversations or -- MJ: Oh yeah. And there was a lot of opportunity to hang out with your teachers at that small school. I had gone off to college thinking I was going to be a minister. I had grown up in the congregational church. I guess I looked up to a minister named Ted Hoskins and kind of wanted to be a minister. The only hitch was I couldn’t get the Jesus part. I would say, “Why is Jesus --” [00:33:00] This is me in high school, “Why is Jesus anymore the son of God than Dr. King or Ghandi?” And the only answer they would give me is I just know. The other thing I was interested in was social work, helping people. I wanted to help people so I figured social work. JJ: And major, that was the major for you -- MJ: Well I’m still figuring out -- I ended up going into sociology because that’s what I thought was going to be social work. I had a professor named Dr. Roose who really broke my heart when I came back a few years later from Berkeley, and was involved in the movement, and the Anti-War Movement, and maybe he was being a devil’s advocate, but he was challenging me around the War in Vietnam. But before that, he really gave me a lot of direction. He basically said, “So you want to help people.” He said, “All right, that’s great, but who’s going to concern themselves with the structural forces that shape peoples’ lives? The social, the economic, the political conditions, the environment in which people are reared that leave them to end up [00:34:00] one way or another. Or at least influence it.” So that was how I ended up wanted to be a sociologist or a minister. I ended up 17 �in sociology at Lake Forest. Over the course of a few years I definitely think I’m going to become a sociology professor. I liked the participant/observer in sociology where you go into a situation and kind of are one with the people. I certainly read about sociologists studying poor communities in Chicago and other places. I did a lot of anthropology. I did end up getting a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship. I went to Berkeley. That’s another segment we can get to. But I also did still entertain this minister notion. I believe I was offered a Danforth’s Fellowship [00:35:00] to go to divinity school. It was designed for people who were open to being a minister but weren’t planning on it. I think there was the Peabody Divinity School at Harvard, I think I was thinking about going there. But when I got into Berkeley, I thought that would be the hippest of all of sociology, and I ended up going to Berkeley. Now in this time one of the things I haven’t addressed yet was taking a motorcycle trip to Mexico. As I had mentioned earlier I was into hot rod cars. I also liked motorcycles. I had driven all over eastern Connecticut at age ten on Saturday or Sunday mornings with Vic [Birchy?], who would have been as the third on the back of a Harley. He’d have one woman in the morning and then he’d have another date in the afternoon. He had warned me not to mention the morning to the afternoon. So I was being introduced to the conniving [00:36:00] sneaky ways of men. Which I try not to do too much of. But at Lake Forest I bought a motorcycle up at Sunset Cycle Sales in -- what’s that little religious town up to the north here? JJ: Zion. MJ: Zion, Illinois. It was yellow. It was a 1956 Thunderbird. It kind of had the license 18 �plate on the front wheel, had a kind of a windshield on it. I had wanted to, as I say, help people, and one of the things that -- I did apply to the Vista and the Peace Corp, that kind of thing, but they weren’t really happening yet. I remember also looking at American Friends Service Committee actions that were going to happen or activities in Mexico. Anyway, I ended up [00:37:00] applying to Mexico City College, which is now Universidad de las Américas. I think it’s in Puebla. But it was kind of a school for hippies and gringos up on the Carretera México Toluca outside of Mexico City. I rode my bike down there. I drove from here to Peoria where my girlfriend Lucia lived and then the next day I drove to Little Rock, Arkansas. The next day I drove to Victoria, Texas. The next day I drove through Brownsville-Matamoros to Ciudad Victoria. And then the next morning I ended up -- by the afternoon I ended up in Mexico City. Obviously for a young kid once you cross the border it’s just complete contrast. Everyone trying to sell you Chiclets, kids with their hands out, beggars, [00:38:00] people, you know, it’s just a border scene. You can probably find that in a lot of borders on both sides in many ways. But Mexico really opened my eyes up. The Cuban Revolution had just happened, so while I was certainly a supporter of President Kennedy at the time, I also dug the Cuban Revolution. While I was there, Kennedy showed up with Alliance for Progress, where they let all the Latin American countries except Cuba in. It turns out Lopez Mateos, the President of Mexico, and their policy was they cleared the streets of the leftists, there was a big welcome for Kennedy. I took two photographs of that that I have, as well as the scene, more of those, and lots of pictures in Mexico which I have put together 19 �over the years in an exhibit called Mexico ‘62. That was fifty years ago this summer. [00:39:00] Actually on this date, the 14th, back in 1962 I think I had been in San Miguel de Allende, and I wrote some notes about it. I have a lot of writing. I have these beautiful photographs. Tonight at a gallery called Phantom Gallery over at Berteau and Damen is an opening of some of my photos, a selection from that show, along with other peoples’ stuff. So that just happens to be happening tonight. That kind of covers the Lake Forest years. One of the other really important things I guess I should mention is we would go to -- we would go down to Chicago to check things out. We’d go to the University of Chicago. I remember seeing the great socialist Norman Thomas at the University of Chicago. I remember the book The Other America by [00:40:00] Michael Harrington, who I got to meet later and hang out with a little bit at a party at Berkeley. But that book had a big impact on me. I saw him speak at the University of Chicago too. I remember dropping people off. I couldn’t go because I was in a play, they needed a big guy to play the executioner in Anouilh’s The Lark, and I was a football player at Lake Forest. I was six-two, I was in better shape than now. I didn’t get to go to Washington to the first big peace march, but I did drop people off down there who were from Lake Forest who were going. So obviously at Lake Forest we had a lot of things starting to happen. One of the things that really popped for me is I had wanted to join the Marine Corp and I had applied -- I had grown up wanting to be a Marine. You know, we played Marine crawling on our stomachs and all that. There was a guy named Buzz [Bailey?] I think his name was, worked at the [00:41:00] Sport Mart. 20 �It was a local independent in the old days called the Sport Mart. He had come back from the war, and Iwo Jima, and these kind of images, and I just wanted to be a Marine. At Lake Forest I joined the Platoon Leader Corp, which meant I would spend summers at Quantico training to be a Marine, and then I would be an officer in the Marines when I got out. Fortunately, I think, in the course of those probably around 1962 or so, 1963, maybe 1962, a group of demonstrators called the Moscow to San Francisco Peace March who were a lot -- I think there were a lot of Brits -- came through. They had just been up to the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, which is just north of Lake Forest. They came to campus and they talked about -- that’s the first time I saw the peace symbol. You know the -- and they talked about war [00:42:00] and they talked about peace. And that was it. I flipped. I was not going to be a Marine anymore. I didn’t go through with it. That was -- from then on I was consciously part of the movement. I was reading about the Civil Rights Movement. I was SNCC, Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee showed up in Chicago to do a benefit or to raise money with the Freedom Singers. I remember we invited them to Lake Forest College. We had them perform at the college and I was the guy who got to drive them back down to Hyde Park. So I met James Foreman there, Willy Peacock. I remember people asking for money to get back to Mississippi and the performance gives them twenty-five bucks a piece. One of them says -Bernard Lafayette or Willy Peacock, somebody says, “We can’t get there on that.” He says, “You have to.” And I’m not sure who the family was that was having it there, some socialist that I know I have the same somewhere. 21 �[00:43:00] But that was big influence on me. I remember when Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner were killed. I followed the SNCC people all along. It was only a couple of years later till I would start meeting a lot of these people coming out of Mississippi and working in other projects in the north. I don’t think I have any more great stories at the tip of my -JJ: What about -- where does SDS come in? MJ: The first time I heard of SDS was at Lake Forest College because we had taken over the school newspaper called the Stentor. The Stentor were always a rahrah college paper and we started putting challenging the sororities and the fraternities. There was a service called the College Press Service. College Press Service came out of [00:44:00] the National Student Association, which later we learned was implicated in working with the CIA and bringing foreign students over here. But we did get their weekly releases. I remember reading about a conference in Hazard, Kentucky of unemployed miners, SNCC workers, Northern Student Movement people, which was another group that Danny Schechter the News Dissector, who does a lot of media stuff in New York, he was the leader of that as I recall, and also Students for Democratic Society. You had these people meeting together talking about students, and Civil Rights, and unemployed white workers, you know, miners, and it captured my attention. I go off to Berkeley summer of 1964. As I say, I worked in Uptown that summer, finished up, got in my -- I had a 1957 Ford convertible. I got it from a guy at Lake Forest [00:45:00] named Richard Simon. And I drove that car across the eastern sector back to Connecticut and then I headed back west to Berkeley. I showed 22 �up at the University of California Berkeley and when I went to register and get all squared away, there was a police car sitting in the middle of the campus surrounded by students. The guy in the car was a guy named Jack Weinberg, who was a long-time activist, and I think he may still work with Green Peace, and lives over on the shore somewhere of Lake Michigan in Indiana. I haven’t see Jack in a while. I think he probably was in -- I don’t know if that’s true he was in the International Socialists. That was one of the first things at Berkeley, all of the sudden there were a million tables. There were the SNCC people, there were the DuBois Society, [00:46:00] there were SDS. Not so much SDS right away. But there were all these political groups out there talking to you in Sproul Hall in the plaza. And I showed up and there was already this police car was surrounded. And what happened was the university was trying to say you could not raise money on campus for off-campus activities. I had believed in the Civil Rights Movement, I believed in SNCC. SNCC captured my heart. Bob Moses or Bob Paris, you know, who was really -- did a lot of the key voter registration, leadership stuff. These were my heroes. So what do you mean you can’t raise money to support off-campus activities? From the first moment I got to Berkeley it was going on. I’m living out in a little town called Canyon with it’s little hippie town a few miles out of Berkeley. [00:47:00] A guy name Skip [Richeimer?], who was -- I had known. He had a motorcycle, he took a lot of photographs, he was a graduate student at the University of Chicago, and I had met him through some people at Lake Forest. And I had gotten into the motorcycle stuff, Danny Lyon, the famed photographer who did the book The Bikeriders and a lot of Civil Rights 23 �stuff was one of those guys. Skip was a contact I had at Berkeley, so when I got out there, I stayed with him and his then wife out in Canyon. Soon after I met Davey Wellman, who was the president of the Graduate Sociology Club, whose father was a commissar in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, was the head of the Communist Party in Michigan. Davey had over the next course of time shared a lot of information about having a -- his mother was from Canada, which he was from the States, being followed around by the FBI. [00:48:00] I was learning a lot about the left pretty quickly. I moved in with Davey at 5600 Telegraph in Berkeley, in Oakland, there was a bar downstairs next door. I remember meeting Lou Rawls there one night. Around the corner I saw Little Junior Parker play. It’s not there anymore, but we had our crib there, and while I was starting graduate work in sociology this police car was still there surrounded by these students. We ended up having the Free Speech Movement. Every day there would be a rally on campus and there would be a speaker. Whether it was Willie Brown, who was a state rep. JJ: You were there when it began? MJ: I was there when it began. I remember -- you asked about first hearing about SDS. Besides reading about it in the College Press Service, I remember someone saying -- sitting around in this demonstration scene, someone saying, “Oh there’s the SDS.” [00:49:00] And I found on the ground a little pamphlet in the course of that first period of time at Berkeley. The pamphlet had an older Black gentleman, not old, was a lot younger than I am now, with a box with apples. He was selling apples. The pamphlet said, “Build the interracial 24 �movement of the poor.” I had always had this kind of -- from college at Lake Forest I had written a paper where I envisioned a world where you would be wearing a Dutch shoes, a kimono, a yarmulke, eating Chinese food while listening to the John Lee Hooker sing the blues. I was always into this kind of rainbow coalition notion. SDS talked about building a movement in poor communities in both Black and white [00:50:00] and I assumed Latino, although that wasn’t -- there was a Puerto Rican community in New York, there was one in Chicago, Toledo, obviously there were some Puerto Ricans who had been taken to Hawaii, but the Latino thing was not like it is today where the Mexicans have come everywhere, and the Puerto Ricans have expanded, and you’ve got a lot of other countries too. This is my dog Che. (laughter) JJ: Che? Che’s (inaudible). So what you’re saying, it sounds like it was they were there, it was just that they weren’t speaking out or? MJ: I don’t think there were as many Mexicans. You had a small Mexican community in Chicago, or not that small, 18th Street, and you also had down by the Bush, who actually were silver miners that were brought from Colorado to work in the steel mills. Or after silver closed up, or however it worked. [00:51:00] That’s where -- I remember reading this. You certainly had Mexicans. But you go anywhere in this country today and there are Mexican restaurants, there are Mexican kids in school, there are Mexican lawn people. You didn’t have that in the 1950s and 1960s. You had it in a few places, I’m sure California, Arizona, but it wasn’t widespread. And this was before the Brown Berets, before Caesar Chavez, that kind of thing. However, correcting myself. When I first drove to 25 �Berkeley in 1964, I stopped in Delano -- is that where -JJ: Delano, yeah. MJ: Delano, Delano. Delano is a Roosevelt. Delano. We knew about the farm workers. Obviously we did know about them then because I stopped there and I had a meeting with Caesar Chavez. I had my Lake Forest College football jacket, which I remember leaving as a donation. I’d love to have it back. I got one later from a guy [00:52:00] who was selling it on the street near here and it was a little small on me. So the farm worker stuff was already starting to happen and I was aware of it actually. I did meet Chavez again. Later, as you know, during the Rainbow Coalition, we all did a lot of work around the Great Boycott, etcetera. But Chavez showed up at the Heartland Café one time. He told me he was interested in jazz. I have, you’ll notice here I have, I don’t know if anyone wants to pan on it, but I have a lot of jazz and a lot of other music. But this was all in my office. I took him in the back and I showed him my jazz collection. There are records here from the 1950s on. (laughs) He said, “Would you make me some tapes of some of these?” I said, “Sure.” He made a pile literally three feet high of my records that he wanted me to convert to tapes for him. Whether or not I would have done that, who knows. [00:53:00] They have technology that does that these days. But unfortunately he passed away. I don’t think I have any pictures of him at the Heartland, but he was there. We were talking about SDS and we were talking about first getting involved with SDS. I heard about SDS. I found the pamphlet that said, “Build the interracial movement of the poor.” I was already trying to figure out how you would bring Black, white, Latino, Asian, 26 �American Indian together. I really had this notion, this melting pot notion, of America. This Rainbow Coalition notion of America. I wrote to SDS and said, “I would like to build the interracial movement of the poor. How do I get involved?” I got a letter back I think from Paul Booth, who has been an activist for a long time with AFSCME Union, and he wrote back, “Well, you have to build it.” [00:54:00] I remember a guy named Mike Davis showing up and Mike Davis has written a lot of interesting books. And he was an SDS traveler. He was the guy that signed my card, my SDS card, and we joined up. My interest in studying sociology was beginning to wane. We had the Free Speech Movement happening, we had the Vietnam Day Committee happening, we had massive marches into Oakland, and I wanted to start a project. So a number of us who were in the Sociology Department who were forming this little SDS network, we ended up moving into West Oakland. I think it was the wrong time for mostly whites. There was one African American guy who had been involved in SNCC a little bit. [00:55:00] I think his name was John Thomas, I’m not sure. I somewhere have a photograph of him. We moved into a place at Seventh and Henry Street in West Oakland, not too far from the Southern Pacific Yards. I remember a band of people from the Peter Maurin House, which is the Catholic Worker Anarchists, and they were mostly Black, and mostly drunk, and they were coming around, and wanted to know what the action was, and what was happening. I remember walking around with an older Black gentleman who would try and shield me from the young kids and the younger tough people. “Oh, you don’t want to talk to those people.” He saw these white kids coming in to try 27 �to help. We worked in an issue in Peralta Village, which I think was public housing, about them tearing down fences or putting up fences, I’m not quite sure what it was. But it was not really the time to be [00:56:00] necessarily working in a Black neighborhood when you were mostly white. We did go to the Newark Poor Peoples Conference, which was all of the SDS projects. So the Oakland people, we drove across country. We drove across with a guy named Doy Gorton, who had worked with SNCC a little bit, a white kid out of Mississippi who is now married to Jane Adams, who was an SDS national officer at one time. They were living in Carbondale. He was a young kind of SNCC photographer, a connected guy. We all drove to Newark for the Poor Peoples’ Conference. I think the JOIN people were probably there, there were some other projects. I met a woman on the way there who was here at JOIN, we stopped at JOIN, named Casey Hayden. Now Casey Hayden was married to Tom Hayden. She was one of the first white woman working in the South and one of the white people who were moved out of SNCC at the end when Stokely came on with Black Power. [00:57:00] I met Casey in Uptown and we hitchhiked to Cleveland and we stayed at the Cleveland Project for a few days. Then we hitchhiked to Newark. So I drove as far as Chicago with Doy Gorton and some people, after that we hitchhiked. After the conference, she and I and a sociology student named Nigel Young from England and his wife Antonia, had a drive away car that we drove -- we were driving back to Berkeley. We did go through Idaho, and we saw a lot of the country, and took some pictures. Casey was really in a place where she was kind of mourning leaving SNCC. She wrote a lot of poetry 28 �[00:58:00] along with Mary Varela about that time. That’s what was occupying her time. I was a graduate student and I also had this Oakland project and we were going to move back into Oakland. Myself and Barry Kalish, who had worked in Newark, and I think a woman named Robinson, a Black woman who had worked in Newark, they were a couple, and myself, and Vivian Rothstein. She had a different name then. She’s been active in LA for years. We moved back to another place in West Oakland. But it just wasn’t happening because what was going on even that summer was the Anti-War Movement and stopping the troop trains. So you had a situation where those of us working in West Oakland were always going to these demonstrations with lots of other people from the Bay Area trying to stop the troop trains. [00:59:00] I remember these trains coming through very slowly as they cleared us off the tracks. Later some guys lost their legs, years later, trying to stop troop trains going to Iraq or -- this was Vietnam. So there’s been a lot of people trying to stop troop trains. I remember these shaved head white kids in the train just kind of laughing but with this fearful look as we were slapping these signs against the window and saying, “No, Vietnam! Get out of Vietnam! Bring the troops home!” Whatever we were yelling. But clearly the move was to the Anti-War Movement. And then the antiuniversity oppression movement, schools as factories movement. There weren’t a lot of people at the time, the Civil Rights Movement was going on, but moving into poor neighborhoods. I went to a SNCC benefit at the Filmore in San Francisco. It was a Bill Graham kind of [01:00:00] production. Richard Pryor was there, the Grateful Dead were there, the Jefferson Starship were there, 29 �Airplane were there, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Richard Pryor the comedian, the great Black comedian, and Stokely Carmichael. I remember talking to Stokely and I said, “Stokely, I’m going to leave graduate school. I’m going to go get involved in one of this SDS project, not Oakland, that’s ended. I’m either going to go to Newark and work with Tom Hayden or I’m going to go Uptown and work with JOIN Community Union, Rennie Davis,” and people who were here then. Very clearly he says, “Work with whit e people.” He says, “We’ve got a lot going on in the Black community, we need more happening in the white community.” And that was my decision to go back to Uptown where I had [01:01:00] worked with this anthropologist in the summer of 1964, it’s now the spring of 1966, and I decided to do this. I was in the middle of writing a paper at Berkeley. As I say, I was already trying to figure out before I got involved with the interracial movement of the poor, I was always trying to figure out how you brought people together. I was studying conflict theory and try to figure out how you would overcome peoples’ negatives, bring them together, find the positive things. I was writing a paper on organizing the poor and I was comparing three attempts. I was comparing the government efforts with the war on poverty, Alinsky’s work with the Woodlawn Organization, [01:02:00] and the SDS projects. Of course the SDS projects came out the best in my writing. I basically completed enough work, all I had was a couple incompletes I think, to have gotten a Masters, but the decision of the department was that in order for me if I wanted to continue to get a PhD at Berkeley, I would 30 �have to write another paper about something other than poverty. I was not up for that. In the spring of -- April of 1966 I think I turned in this paper on organizing the poor and I drove back in that 1957 Ford convertible back to Chicago with a guy named Burt Steck, who was already working in JOIN, to work in Uptown. And I showed up on a summer -- I had a few adventures [01:03:00] traveling across country, but basically end up in Uptown. Well, the only real adventure I’d like to share is we stopped in Des Moines. There was a guy named Fred Stover at the United States Farmers Association. Stover had been the -- whatever you call -- the Secretary of Agriculture under Roosevelt. He had come out as opposing the Korean War, so that probably ended his career. But he had this kind of radical farmers organization. We had set up to meet him and talk. Carl Davidson of SDS, he’s an active dude to this day, thank you, Carl. He I think had made the initial contact with him. I ended up waiting for his office to open, and we were sleeping in the car, and the police rousted us, and they [01:04:00] -- we had kind of longer hair and they wanted to know if we had dope or marijuana. I said no way. It was -- I always get along with cops pretty much. Not always, but I have with a lot of them. We had a little chat and then Stover took us out to eat. We talked about farming, and agriculture, and the Anti-War Movement. Then I drove on to Chicago where the JOIN people were active up on Argyle in front of Price Right TV, some brothers named Price, southern guys. The protest was all about Mrs. Hinton, who was an Indian from India. She had had her TV repaired there and she said she was ripped off. We were demonstrating that she should get her money back or some kind of justice. These guys were very hostile. I 31 �remember they came out -- I was a welcome sight on a picket line anywhere. I was a big guy, had worked [01:05:00] out, I’d played football, and thought of myself as someone -- I’ve certainly always been aware that plenty of people I get into situations with that could probably wipe me up, but you also don’t show a lot of fear, and you do talk and reason, and then -- so anyhow, I ended up engaged in these guys and later they became involved in JOIN Community Union, and you win them over. You always try to win the enemy over, win the opposition, or overcome what we call false consciousness. Marx called it that first where people act in the interests that’s opposed to their real interest. Which is why you have workers going for the Republicans. That was the beginning of my life in Uptown. JJ: So now joining -- MJ: Can I get -- can I get you to get me another hit of this coffee? JJ: A small -- (break in recording) MJ: Okay, we’re talking about JOIN. I was sharing with you the life and times of JOIN Community Union. [01:06:00] JOIN was one of the projects of SDS, Students for a Democratic Society, and it was before SDS really became the big major group that it was around the Anti-War Movement. Before that it was about poverty. And this was fifty years, I believe, since the Port Huron Statement, so there’s a lot of talk about the Port Huron Statement, which was written by the early SDS people, Tom Hayden and some others. That’s going on around the country right now. SDS was very much concerned with poverty at that time. They initiated the projects to build the interracial movement of the poor. As I was saying a little bit 32 �earlier, I got involved. I was attracted to [01:07:00] the project as a whole. Stokely Carmichael encouraged me to go work with poor whites and I did that, I went to Uptown. JOIN had originally been a joint effort of both the Students for a Democratic Society and the packing house workers, particularly with Jesse Prosten, who was the head of the packing house workers here in Chicago, to my understanding. The idea was to work around jobs or income now. In other words, we need jobs or we need some money. They tried to organize unemployed people. That’s why the original pamphlet I’d seen is a picture of a Black guy selling apples in front of an unemployment office. What they used to do is the student volunteers here in Chicago, they would go out to Lawrence Avenue over by the unemployment comp office, and they would get names, and talk to people. [01:08:00] They didn’t really see it as a real movement developing, so they ended up taking the contact cards, and they determined that most of them, or the majority, or the largest number, came out of Uptown, which was 60640. They decided to move into Uptown with a concept of a community union. So instead of jobs or income now it became JOIN Community Union. Join the community union, just like a labor union works in the plant, or the factory, or wherever it is to secure workers’ rights and better conditions, a community union would do that in community. You would organize people around issues of welfare, housing, police, food, you name it. So when I showed up it was now JOIN Community Union. [01:09:00] And we actually over the course of 1966 to -JJ: It’s union organizing at the community level. 33 �MJ: Yeah, tried to build this kind of one big union notion. On every issue we’re going to have some action on it. What JOINT actually did was have an office -- they had a couple offices. One up on Argyle, that’s -- and then one on Sheridan Road, 4431 North Sheridan, on the east side of the street. What happened, when I showed up there all these welfare people would be coming in. Welfare was a real issue. JOIN had a welfare union that included Black, white, Native American, Latinos, it was a whole lot of different people. Mainly southern white, but the leadership were these two Black women, Big Debbie and Little Debbie, Debbie [Coleman?] and Debbie [Thurman?], both who I think have passed away. [01:10:00] We had demonstrations at the welfare office. You can’t treat people with disrespect, people have rights. These student activists were actually working with the clients, so to speak, to help make sure they got their just do. Then other than that we had developed rent strikes. We took on some buildings on Kenmore, various other places. I spent time, I remember, going into basements and turning on people’s electricity and gas that had been turned off. I learned that skill early. Then we found that the majority of the people around who were involved were not so much the men but the women and the young guys. Not the young girls. Little girlfriend action. It was mainly young guys. So what we ended up doing was starting a thing called -- the young guys [01:11:00] put together the Good Fellows and there was a Good Fellows Hall on Wilson Avenue. This was across from where Reverend Morey had had an outreach center where initially people -- we met people. And the Good Fellows were a part of JOIN but were kind of independent and they had a march on the police. 34 �There were a lot of repercussions from that. The police came back and were busting a lot of people, but it was over harassment of kids, people in the neighborhood. A number of these people who were involved in the Good Fellows and in JOIN, young guys, became the nucleus of what were the Young Patriots, which comes along a little bit later, as well as Rising Up Angry. These things overlapped a lot. We’ll get to that history in a minute. But JOIN had developed a food buying co-op, we had the rent strikes, we had the [01:12:00] marches and the demonstrations at the welfare office, we had talked about police brutality, and we put out a newspaper. I’ve always been involved and started newspapers, but this one was called The Firing Line. It started as a newsletter. We recruited a local welfare mother who turns out had had a little bit of political indoctrination, Peggy Terry. Peggy Terry has been written up and featured in a number of Studs Terkel’s books, she was on a PBS thing about people coming north in the 1940s around the war time. She was out of Oklahoma; she says she was a racist. But she ended up linking up with a guy named Gil Terry, who was in some political sect later on, and they were in Birmingham, so she was down there in Birmingham during the [01:13:00] bus boycott and that kind of stuff, and she got turned around. She was living in Chicago, she had some kids. Her older son, who has passed away, guy had been in trouble. He became a real leader with the Young Patriots early on. That’s Doug Youngblood. There’s another kid who I think is in prison still, but about to get out. There’s a daughter who did really well and has been active over the years. Peggy and I became good friends and she became the editor of The Firing Line and we turned it into a 35 �newspaper. We’d have little stories about like there’s one [Fawn?] Madden who was related to Junebug Boykin who was a name that comes up around JOIN and the Patriots, even Rising Up Angry. Fawn, I remember interviewing Fawn about life in Hazard, Kentucky and coming up to Chicago and what it was like. So we had a lot going on. [01:14:00] The police raided JOIN. They busted my sister and Pat Sturgis, who had showed up not too -- he had gone to Lake Forest with me and he was coming to help out. Then my sister came and left college and was going to work and do a community theater, which she did. We had the JOIN Community Theater, which put on plays at our meetings, put on plays in empty lots over let’s turn this lot into the Hank Williams Memorial Playground. The plays were really kind of evil landlord, you know, and virtuous tenants. They were great. But she had just shown up -JJ: What was the raid for? She had just shown up. MJ: The raid is the police are getting pissed off at us. She had just come to Chicago. Or Patrick, one of them had. There were two in the office and they got busted. If you look in a book called JOIN or Uptown, called Uptown by [01:15:00] Nancy Hollander or Nancy Gitlin and Todd Gitlin. It’s not so much about JOIN, but it’s about life of southern white migrants in Chicago. In that book is a picture -- I believe that’s where that picture is -- of the office wrecked by the police. There’s also a couple pictures of me at a welfare demonstration at Hilliard’s office. Hilliard was the head guy of welfare then. Later on every one got off of that case because they planted dope. It was really blatant. But it was an issue we had to deal with. Out of that came a group called Citizens -- or no, Citizens Alert. 36 �Today on my radio show I had John -JJ: Conroy. MJ: John Conroy. Today I had John Conroy on my radio show and I know that he’s the guy that broke the John Burge [01:16:00] story and the police torture over 22 years -- he followed it. But one of the groups that was active around that whole issue was Citizens Alert. Citizens Alert is not unlike what the Black Panthers did right around that time, but we didn’t know about, where they followed police around. We followed the police around in Uptown. They didn’t like that a whole lot. So that was going on back then. There was a lot of really interesting activity going on in Uptown. In 1968 the focus shifted from poverty to the war. I myself, I would say I was a little backward. I didn’t want the Democratic Convention to come to town and the demonstrations around it. I thought that would interfere with what I considered to be the very long slow arduous process of becoming one with the people, winning people’s trust, winning them over time, so that they could be about social change. That was [01:17:00] the thought. You had to spend a lot of time with people. However, once the Democratic Convention was coming to town it was pretty clear that young people were getting into this and it was happening. But Rennie Davis, who was the de facto leader, one of them, of the JOIN Community Union, went over to Bratislava to meet with the Vietnamese and with the National Liberation Front. This was all going on. The war was starting to happen big time. Rennie is gone and a number of other people decide to leave. The young guys in the neighborhood, influenced by a really treacherous dude named Tom Mosher, who had been -- he is the son of a 37 �teamster enforcer, he had gone to Stanford, he had worked Al Lowenstein in Mississippi around SNCC stuff, and he [01:18:00] was hanging around Reverend Morey’s haul in Uptown, and with the young guys. He became a little bit involved with JOIN. He went to Cuba with the SDS people and then wrote about it for the Reader’s Digest. He was involved in all kinds of stuff at Stanford. I think he was involved in the murder of Mark Comfort and other people in early organizing prePanthers out there on the West Coast. There was an article recently in a French magazine by Steve Weissman from SDS, which goes through the details on this guy you wouldn’t believe. Later on he works for (inaudible), so tell you where he’s at. But Mosher is -- I think he’s fanning the flames of division between the students organizers and the young guys in Uptown. Because at the SDS convention in Bloomington, Indiana with Peggy Terry as their front person, and Youngblood, and Dave Puckett, and Junebug, and Bobby Lee -- not Bobby Lee. [01:19:00] Bobby McGinnis, etcetera, Bobby Joe they called him. They declared their independence. JJ: Hy Thurman, was he involved? MJ: He was around too. His older brother had been involved more, Melvin Thurman, I think. Anyhow, they declared their independence from SDS. You can find this in the New Left notes if you really want to dig through the history. Then they kicked out all of the remaining students. JOIN kicked out all of the remaining students except for me. I’m still in their good graces. (laughs) And there had been a guy who showed up at that time whose nickname was Preacherman. What is his real name? 38 �JJ: William -- MJ: Fesperman. JJ: Fesperman, yeah. MJ: Now William Fesperman [01:20:00] and his wife -- JJ: Hold on a second. (break in recording) MJ: All right. I was sharing about the young guys in Uptown, I think under the influence of Tom Mosher, they kick out all of the JOIN people, all of the students, except for me, and at the same time Preacherman shows up. I only vaguely remember this guy being around. He was a divinity student. He was at McCormick Theological Seminary. He had a beret and they thought of this Young Patriots. The Young Patriots, as you know, in Mike Gray’s American Revolution 2 there’s a lot of footage of Bobby Lee meeting with these young kids in Uptown, these young white kids. Well, some of them were not southern whites like Jimmy Cartier, who was a football player from Lake Forest out of Waukegan with me, [01:21:00] who was one of the early Rising Up Angry people, he’s in that movie. Bobby Lee in the movie is talking about how we’ve got to work together and all of that. There’s these young kids who become the Young Patriot. Fesperman, along with Doug Youngblood, Hy Thurman, Junebug, some other people, they ended up having an office, they ended up taking the Firing Line, which was the JOIN paper, and it really was very hard for me to take. They put out a thing that said, “White power”. They certainly meant it in the sense that okay, Fred used to talk about red power to red people, brown power to brown people, black power to black people, white power to white people, you know, 39 �brown power to brown people, and he would do that rap, and that was we have to kind of -- it’s hillbilly nationalist. There’s a new book out called [01:22:00] Hillbilly Nationalists: Urban Race Rebels and Black Power. There was the -- and I actually flirted with that too. Uptown was like hillbilly migrant’s Harlem. One of the things that distinguished us from other groups that worked with the Panthers, other mainly white groups, is that we were not about just being a support for the Panthers, we were about fighting for the rights, the integrity, the justice for oppressed white people or exploited white people. That was clearly a different -made us different than I think some of the groups like the National Committee to Combat Fascism, which came out of the Panthers and led to whatever Slim’s groups were. They were mainly support groups. We certainly played that role, but we were also about white people got to get organized too around their own self interests. I think the Young Patriots tried to [01:23:00] do that a little bit. So there was a big splash. The Panthers, particularly when Preacherman went to Oakland to some conference and gave a speech. You had the Young Patriots with confederate flags on their backs, that kind of stuff, showing up and talking about getting along with the Black Panther Party. But there was a split after that. I don’t have a lot of the details. I know that there were some internal issues with some of the people of the local Young Patriots and the police, some not too hip stuff. It kind of left some people disenchanted with each other and there was kind of a split. The Young Patriots did go to New York, had something going, and there was a Young Patriots thing up in Washington state, Oregon, or something. And they had an office for a while over on Racine because the 40 �landlord was Irv Birnbaum who had been a landlord and a supporter or lawyer for JOIN. [01:24:00] I kind of split places then. I had this notion, I had this vision really, of -- I drew a picture. It was a picture of a flower and it said Wildwood Flower, which was a famous country tune by the Carter Family. I said who knows about Wildwood Flower? Not a lot of college students, but millions and millions of Americans living out there. Now it’s not a political song but to me it was just like there are a lot of white people that were -- I thought of people listening to country music as poor, that kind of thing. Not that it has the mainstream aspects today. I had made the decision to work with white people. I guess I flirted with some kind of nationalism. It wasn’t nationalism in the sense of us versus them, it was like you can love yourself and love the whole. And that was always my -- in fact, I’m going to say it right now, the way I put [01:25:00] things to students, I say the best hope for white people is at some time in the world they will be viewed as an international minority that works for the good of the whole. You can say that about the United States. Hopefully the United States gets viewed in the world community down the line as a country made up of people who work for the good of the whole and not for the good of just one race, or one nationality, or one class. I had this idea of we needed to build a new organization of basically white working class youth initially to ally with the Panthers, to ally with the Young Lords. These are the groups that are influencing us at the time, and were in our environment so to speak. We held a conference in Fairborn, Ohio in 1968. Hamish Sinclair was there, who had worked in Hazard, Kentucky, [01:26:00] and has been active on the West Coast with 41 �prisoners I think since then. Some other people. Basically the conference was what are we going to do next, JOIN is kind of over, and where are we going to go. We held it in Fairborn, Ohio on a farm, but we went to Yellow Springs, Ohio, where Antioch College was, to see a movie that night. I will confess we were a little smoked up, we’d been drinking, we basically were out of control. We went into the movie theater without paying. This is the rowdier -- we all have parts in our life where it’s sort of cool but it’s got its negative aspects. (laughs) I remember this kind of Andy Frain usher guy, security guy, who we just totally ignored. I remember being drunk up in the [01:27:00] photo booth. I’m not sure this can go on air. (laughs) In the projection booth. And the movie was Wild in the Streets. Wild in the Streets is made by the same people who made the FBI series, who made the anti-Mao movie called The Chairman, who made a movie about Malcolm X that was critical, you know, hostile to Malcolm X, and I think they may have done I Live Three Lives, the FBI thing on TV. But they -- Wild in the Streets the premise was these little white kids who were into rock and roll and stuff were challenging the older people, and they took it over, and everybody who was over thirty was written off. Then the little kids come along and wipe them out. But in the movie there was a song that goes, (singing) “There’s a new song rising up angry in the sky.” And that’s where I got the name. So I had been influenced by the Young Lords, this is crucial, [01:28:00] that they started putting out a paper. Whether that was here or New York, but I think it was the New York people, and a guy that says, “To liberate you got to educate. Educate to liberate.” That came from here. It came from right here in Chicago. So I was 42 �very much influenced by the Young Lords here in Chicago and they were talking about you’ve got to educate to liberate. So Rising Up Angry was my notion of a newspaper that would do that. I didn’t just get it from the Young Lords, I had read Lenin. Lenin talked about the role of a newspaper in a pre-party situation. You’ve got to educate people. That’s why now in this decade, I just turned 70, well seven months ago, I’ve put out a newspaper called The Heartland Journal over the years, and whether it’s called that or something else I’m going to do another online as well as printed and video, a lot of kind of journalism stuff. So that’s just a little advance warning. [01:29:00] We started a newspaper called Rising Up Angry. It was all things cool. What’s going on? The Black Panthers is cool, Young Lords is happening, we like the movie Bullet with Steve McQueen because the cops are chasing him. We had the stuff happening in Berkeley where the People’s Park was going on. I liked hot rod cars, so drag racing, all that stuff. All of that is in the first issue of Rising Up Angry. What we had been doing was since I had left Uptown, and I don’t know what’s going with the Patriots much and all that, but they’re active now because they aren’t active by 1969 when we actually started the paper, they’re done. I was delivering groceries up here in Rogers Park with Jimmy Cartier, and Patrick Sturgis, and [01:30:00] people who had been involved in my life. Patrick goes back to a little bit of JOIN. JJ: What about Diversey and the bookstore? MJ: Diversey and --? JJ: In the -- it was Diversey or Fullerton, you had a bookstore. MJ: That’s in Rising Up Angry. We aren’t there yet. 43 �JJ: Okay. You’re in Rogers Park. MJ: I’m living in Uptown, but I’m delivering groceries up here, and we’re getting to know these young kids on the corner, young greaser kids, who are -- now they’re firemen, now they’re train engineers, conductors. But they were working class youth in the neighborhood. Everybody wore -- the style of clothes then was baggy work pants, t-shirts or Ban-Lon shirts or Italian knits, black leather jackets, your hair was kind of short but growing longer, greased back, A1 stay press pants [01:31:00] or those baggy points, and pointy toe shoes, and black leather jackets. And that was the greaser style. There was a Black style like that too, the Gousters. And I’m sure the Puerto Rican -- everybody wore that style. And everyone’s listening to the same music. There was still Black on white, Latino, all that shit, but everything was starting -- the groundwork was being laid for the Rainbow Coalition. What I used to do is I’d take young kids and we had other contacts too. I remember meeting some people from the South Side, Billy Bonner and other people who went to Central [Y?] High school. A guy named John Starr, who still eats at the Heartland, he’s an actor and a teacher. He’s in his eighties. I think he’s in his eighties now. He was teaching at Central Y and we went to talk to them. I would go talk to students, people on the corners, we said, “Look, Black and white, Latinos, are all fighting each other, we’ve got to get along. The man is sticking to it to us, all of us.” [01:32:00] You know, the classic rap. The working class is oppressed, we have to overcome our false consciousness, we have to work together in our interests, and there’s a lot of singularities between us. You’ve got to go beyond the color of the skin. 44 �JJ: And the reaction is what? MJ: There’s some people say, “Oh, fuck the niggers.” Or, you know, “Spics this.” Some people go, “Yeah, I hear ya, man, right on!” So we would take these young kids to other events. If you had a demonstration or a march going on, this was before we became officially an organization, we would lay the groundwork for the paper. We went to the Panther office. We were kind of just hipping people to the cross-racial, cross-cultural fertilization that makes this country wonderful and probably makes the world wonderful. On July 28, 1969 we came out with the first issue of [01:33:00] Rising Up Angry, which I described a moment ago. That was really the way we reached out to a lot of people. We would jump out of the car, we’d drive around neighborhoods, three or four of us, and we’d pull up to Kosciuszko Park, we’d go down to the Gas for Less at Armitage -- at Sedgwick and Lincoln over there. That’s where the Mohawks, the Hudson’s, the North Parks come, commonly known as the [CORE?], who used to go to the same school with guys who became parts of the Young Lords. JJ: We used to fight them (inaudible). MJ: You used to fight when you were kids. JJ: With a gang, yeah. MJ: Yeah. And we would hang out with them. My sister in law Kimmy was going out with those guys. We’d drink a little ripple, we’d smoke a little smoke, we’d talk about revolution. When the Weathermen did their Wild in the Streets action, what was it called? Days of Rage. We took a bunch of CORE guys to that. But it wasn’t just [01:34:00] here, it was South Side, it was everywhere. We would go 45 �places. We would pass out the paper or we’d sell the paper. I spent hundreds of hours, maybe more. I would be at the corner of Lincoln and Belmont. I would be at Milwaukee near Kedzie and Diversey and I would be on the corner say, “Okay, it’s time to take a change from the brain. It’s time to get back in the peoples’ camp. It’s time we move it from the lower level to the higher, from the shallower to the deeper, from the one-sided to the many, from the abstract to the concrete. All power to the people, brothers and sisters. All power to the people. Rising up angry. Get your Rising Up Angry. Twenty-five cents, Rising Up Angry, you need this information.” So I would be -- you know, that’s what I did. I was the king of selling the papers on the corner. And we had quotas. Some people did work in the legal program. They didn’t have to sell as many papers. I was the head of outreach. I would be the guy who would -- [01:35:00] we would organize meetings at the old Wobbly Hall or other places where we would recruit as many kids as we could from around the city, come and watch us -- watch the Battle of Algiers, which is a great movie about the Algerian revolution, and secret cells, and militaristic stuff. We would show them that movie. There was an operation, outfit, called Newsreel who were filmmakers out of New York and San Francisco and Chicago and they would make short movies about all kinds of issues. Jimi Hendrix, it starts out come to San Francisco with flowers in your hair, and the next thing you know there’s riot scenes fighting the police. And were a little left wing adventurous, a little militaristic. All of us, the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, Rising Up Angry, everyone was buying guns in those days. You got your gun card. Clark Kissinger, who he was [01:36:00] a moderate kind of SDS 46 �guy who later is now in the RCP, Revolutionary Communist Party, and pushing Mao to this day. He opened a gun store. I remember going to Bell’s Gun Shop on Manheim Road in Franklin Park and the Lords would be there, the Panthers would be there, the cops would be there, Rising Up Angry would be there. It was like hairy times. We all had High Standard Riot pumps, just like Huey Newton in the photo with Bobby Seale. We had Browning 9mm. I was so grateful when my guns were stolen by some Native American guys. I’ve got to say, I didn’t ever like guns a lot. I’ve been trained in the use of guns at my Y camp and people who were shooting skeet down in this gravel pit, but I just -- the guns was not my favorite thing. But I did have some guns. Some guys I know [01:37:00] they stole my guns and they were going to Wounded Knee, maybe they went to Wisconsin, I have no idea where they are, I hope it never comes back on me. (laughs) JJ: Would you say the emotion at that time was? MJ: Arms struggle. I had grown up Adlai Stevenson kind of Democratic Party, Kennedy. I did vote for Johnson. Then we were down on politics later. Later on it was okay to vote for McGovern. I ran the Peggy Terry campaign for Vice President with Eldritch Cleaver in 1968 with the Peace and Freedom Party. We didn’t even talk about that part of the history. We had gotten more and more disillusioned, we had gotten more left wing adventurous, infantile radicalism, I’m not sure what the Lenin term is for that. But we thought we were actually going to take over the country and it was going to be an armed struggle. [01:38:00] I got to say that we were not the only ones that thought that because the year after 47 �the Bears won the Super Bowl, I think it was 1995, I went with my friend Dave Meggyesy, who had played for the Cardinals and was an organizer for the Player’s Union, and is a very close friend to this day. I was in San Francisco; we went to see the Bears. They lost to the 49ers. We ended up at a bar that night. This was 1995. At the bar, while the rest of us are sneaking around doing illicit activities, (laughs) there’s a guy named -- he’s an FBI agent and I’m blocking his name. It will come back to me. I’m so sorry I’m blocking his name. But he was the FBI agent on the Delorean case where the guy that made those Delorean cars was busted on cocaine. This guy has an Irish name. He also was after the Weathermen. So here [01:39:00] we are, I’m with a bunch pro-football -- former pro-football players. And so somehow, we’re all chumming it up with this FBI guy who says to me, he says, “We thought you were going to win. We thought it was coming down.” I went like -- I said, “Well, you know, I guess on a scale of however you measure it, it was perceived as a major movement. We were for real. We engendered these reactions from the forces that be in the government to try and wipe us out.” Which in many ways they did. If you think about COINTEL Program and the Panthers and the murder of all kinds of people by the government and the FBI, including our beloved Fred Hampton in this town in, and Mark Clark, it just -- the movement that you and I, all of us here, [01:40:00] were involved with was serious, it was real, it had ramifications both positively and negatively. JJ: When Reverend Bruce Johnson -- because it was like thirty days before Fred Hampton. Were you around at that time? When Bruce Johnson -- 48 �MJ: When Bruce Johnson was killed? JJ: Yeah. MJ: I remember him getting killed. I remember the march, I think, on Armitage Avenue. We were involved in -- Rising Up Angry was involved, like the Panthers, in free health clinics. I think the Young Lords had one for a while; the Panthers had them, Doc Satchel was the Minister of Health. He had been wounded in the raid on the Hampton apartment. I think probably the most -- the Patriots and the Uptown people had an Uptown people’s health clinic too. But I think the most successful clinic to be honest was the Fritzi Engelstein Free People’s Health Center which I think Slim had been -- Slim Coleman had been involved with. Then the Rising Up Angry people [01:41:00] basically ended up taking it over, running it, and for years we had this Free People’s Health Center at the corner of Wilton and Diversey at the Church of the Holy Covenant. The reverend was Jim something. JJ: Was it Jim Reed? MJ: Jim Reed is the minister there. I remember him. The other minister, Bruce Johnson, over -- that was involved at your church where you had your offices on Armitage. I don’t remember a lot of stuff about that, to be honest with you. But he was assassinated, he was killed. JJ: Like Manuel Ramos, were you involved -- MJ: I remember the march on Manuel Ramos. JJ: What do you remember about that? MJ: I don’t remember much other than he was a figure in your literature. Then we put 49 �him in Rising Up Angry and there were marches. He was an activist with you guys, he had come out of the Young Lords gang, became part of the Young Lords organization. I don’t know much other than that. I’ve got to say that I held you [01:42:00] in high esteem and probably -- I probably wasn’t aware of my own potential early on, but when I met the Fred Hamptons of the world and the ChaCha Jimenez’s of the world, they were guys I looked up to. I think everyone who looks at this kind of thing, you can look to leaders for guidance, advice, and inspiration, but leaders are leaders. A lot of people who follow leaders have a lot of real serious potential themselves. You want to say okay, I’m learning from these guys, I look to them as a leader, I too can be a leader. Back to where I started on that, I was a little shy talking to you. I don’t think it was until I saw you of altered consciousness one time that I realized you were a human guy. JJ: You’re talking about altered -- MJ: You were messed up. (laughs) In the night on Montrose one night. “All right, Cha-Cha!” (laughs) It was like -- we all go [01:43:00] through our periods. Some people probably have seen me out in the world -- well, I’ve been married for a good amount of time now, which probably saved my life in many ways. All of us guys are lucky to hook up with some really fine wives. (laughter) I remember I spent a lot of nights out running around. Which was part of the deal though. Where did Bobby Lee first start talking to people when he was a Panther organizer? I’d see him in Oxford Pub. He was the guy that got sent to work with the white people. We’d be out there drinking and later on there was a period of time when people were snorting and weed and weed from then until today even. 50 �I would be an advocate of not only medical marijuana but recreational use. I think that a lot of drugs can be pretty harmful. But also I think there is a positive side to all of that. I will refer people to the Andrew Wild book The Natural Mind. In that he talks about the -- every culture on the planet uses some [01:44:00] chemical substance to alter consciousness except the Eskimos, because they didn’t have it. They didn’t have fermented this or fermented that or they didn’t have some kind of plant growing. Everybody has used it. In the book he talked about it can help you in many ways. But then he talks about going beyond it. You don’t really need it. You can reach consciousness and awareness at higher levels without the aid of some kind of substance that alters your consciousness. I’m not an anti-drug guy. I tend to be kind of pro the use of recreational drugs. I think it’s better than people getting drunk. But that’s an issue that’s going on today. Back then it was, back now. JJ: And you were organizing greasers who were on the corners. MJ: They were on the corners. They were just -- they were drinkers but then they started [01:45:00] to be smokers. Because what happened was the older brothers started coming back from Vietnam. The older brothers had been in Vietnam and they had gotten along with Black guys and Latino guys. They’d all smoked weed over there. You had all of the sudden the greasers in the neighborhood are growing their hair long and they’re smoking weed. And like I said earlier, they’re listening to the music. Then you’ve got Rising Up Angry, you’ve got the Young Lords, you’ve got the Black Panther Party, you’ve got the American Indian Movement, you’ve got I Wor Kuen, which was an Asian group 51 �for a while. They were pretty serious Maoist types and pretty critical of anyone -I remember I wrote a -JJ: Were they more like in New York? MJ: They were in New York and the West Coast, but they were here in Chinatown too. Yeah. Because I remember I was invited to speak at something, I had written a piece that had been put out in a benefit -- I brought [01:46:00] a band called XIT (Crossing of Indian Tribes) to Chicago to do some shows for Rising Up Angry to raise money. There is footage of all of that, there’s a movie of them. In the program I wrote a thing about the American Indian Movement. And the line is, “To the place where we share one heart.” I always kind of mixed a lot of the little New Age stuff, with Marxist politics, with American populism, whatever I read or am looking at I’m influenced by. So I had this phrase, “Where we work together --” blah, blah, blah, “Where we join together to go to that place where we share one heart.” And I was asked to talk at the I Wor Kuen thing and I basically gave this talk where I used that line and they attacked me. It’s not being hardassed Marxist enough. [01:47:00] So I wasn’t fond on that organization. And then they disappeared. But they were around here for about that much time. I don’t include them in my discussions or talks about the Rainbow Coalition. I do include the Young Lords, and the Panthers, and the Patriots were the original. The Patriots were so short-lived and it kind of merged with the Rising Up Angry. I do mention the American Indian Movement was around too. There was also in the Mexican community there were the Brown Berets. JJ: Because they spread to other cities too. 52 �MJ: The Brown Berets, they were short-lived here. The leader became a kind of conversative -- JJ: The Young Lords were learning from that. We were learning from the Brown Berets. MJ: You had Brown Berets here? JJ: They came before us but you know, we went to the West Coast. MJ: I remember you were with Corky Gonzales. When you and I were at Rainbow Coalition of Elders meeting, I remember we were at the same camp, and Corky Gonzales, who had been an influence. JJ: And the children of Corky Gonzales came to visit us. MJ: I got photos of that. [01:48:00] I’ve got a lot of photos so show you guys. JJ: Okay, so the impact of the Rainbow Coalition, what do you think? MJ: The Rainbow Coalition was just the real deal. It was what we were about. Enjoying -- there had been white people working in the welfare union, working with the Kenwood Oakland Community Organization, which goes till this day. So there were Black people, so you had Blacks and whites. Then once Rising Up Angry comes along, Rising Up Angry is not only influenced by the Panthers and the Young Lords, but we go to the demonstrations, and people start talking about each other. I remember the Panthers being -- I was introduced at a Panther event where someone was referring to having seen this name written on the wall, Rising Up Angry, who are they, what are they? Well it was kids first out of Lincoln Park, Logan Square, because we were in both places in Uptown [01:49:00] coming out of Uptown. We began an organization and we had some 53 �skills at getting press, and we did have a newspaper that put out 20,000 copies of the paper every three weeks. We would sell it all over town. In that we pushed -- we didn’t use the term Rainbow Coalition a lot. I think the Uptown -the Patriot guys did and they made those buttons early on. There’s these handpainted buttons of red, brown, black, yellow, and white, which were kind of the Rainbow Coalition. I don’t remember talking about the Rainbow Coalition until years later when you’re working on the kind of the history of the Young Lords and the Black Panthers, and Ray Santisteban started coming and making his interviews for his movies. Since then it’s become the way we describe those [01:50:00] times. You correct me if I’m wrong, but other than maybe Bobby Lee using the term, I don’t even know if in the movie it’s Rainbow Coalition. JJ: Bobby Lee was working with the Patriots and then when we started working with the Panthers Fred asked us to join the Rainbow Coalition, so that’s how the original group -- then it spread to other cities. MJ: Then Fred’s dead, then the Patriots are gone. JJ: Yeah, but then spread to other cities for a while. It just said we were supporting each other. MJ: Yeah, and so we did that. The way the history is described now, and I did an article which hopefully becomes the basis of a book by the same name, it’s Rising Up Angry and Chicago’s Early Rainbow Coalition. I don’t talk a lot about it, but I do talk about the influence of the Lords, the Panthers, and then Rising Up Angry. The way I came up with that article to become a book was because you, Cha-Cha Jiminez, [01:51:00] were doing something at DePaul where you were 54 �going to have -- they were going to talk about the Black Panthers and the Young Lords, leaving us guys out. So all of the sudden, someone knew I had photographs. Because the photographs they were using in the exhibit were of the Panthers in New York or on Oakland. JJ: We told them. MJ: Okay, good. And the stuff on the Young Lords was stuff in New York, of the Young Lords Party in New York. I remember they all came up here from -what’s that guy’s name? JJ: Masud, Felix Masud. MJ: Yeah, Felix. How do you say his name? JJ: Felix Masud Piloto. MJ: And then Maria? JJ: Maria Isabel Ochoa. MJ: Yeah, and one other woman? JJ: Jackie Lazú. MJ: No, it wasn’t her. JJ: Christina -- MJ: Christina. JJ: -- Rodrigeuz. MJ: Okay, so all of these people, Christina, and Maria, and Felix, [01:52:00] they came up to the Heartland Café and I took them in the back into the Michael James archive section/studio/prairie dancer gallery, whatever we’re going to call it. I did have from the Rising Up Angry files not a lot of pictures I shot myself, 55 �although I’ve shot plenty of pictures, but also during that period I’ve got to confess, while I shot some photos early on in Angry, I was considered -- I’m the organizer, I’m doing stuff and other people take the pictures. But I have the archives and I still have the archives. That’s why the people making the Black Panther movie, who also did the Freedom Rider movie, just came and talked to me because people want to look at the pictures. Lo and behold, you came up -or they came up and they wanted to do this show on the Panthers and the Lords. I showed them the stuff, so it became, okay, [01:53:00] it’s going to be the Black Panthers and the Young Lords and Rising Up Angry. And as you know we had an exhibit at DePaul a few years back of photos -- of not only the Panthers from New York and the Young Lords from New York, but Panthers and Lords from Chicago, and some Rising Up Angry and some Young Patriots. It’s still a great exhibit. There’s this book out, as I said earlier, Hillbilly Nationalists, Urban Race Rebels, and Black Power, and certainly when I get my Rising up Angry book out, I’ve got all these photos, they’re all framed, they’re ready to go, it’s an exhibit, it can go anywhere anytime. It’s getting hot. JJ: Any final thoughts? Any final thoughts? MJ: Let’s think. Yeah, let’s try to stab at some final thoughts. In 1975 things came to a transition. The War in Vietnam [01:54:00] was coming to an end, Rising Up Angry closes, there’s a debate in Rising Up Angry whether we’re going to end the organization. I voted to have a new organization called the Rising of Us All. I still think that’s a good title. I was outvoted. We sold the building on Belmont at Racine, which is where we had Right On Books. Right On Books was a little 56 �bookstore. We actually had -- it was two floors, we had big meetings there, we showed films there, put out the newspaper there, we owned the building. Actually the reception area when you walk in had a steel plate about this thick because we were concerned with -- it was a militaristic time on a lot of fronts. So the building gets sold and I’m -- the vote doesn’t go with us having a new organization [01:55:00] so I started a thing called Freedom Road Delivery. Freedom Road Delivery was a number of things. It was going to be a musical production thing and during the Rising Up Angry time we had done the People’s Dances. That was really a popular thing where you’d have all these little contacts from these little gangs and peer groups on corners, some Latinos from Lawndale down that way and 18th Street, some Black people, we’d have bands, and we’d get together, and we’d dance our asses off, get along. We’d serve food, we’d have poetry, and folk music in another room. We did these at the Midland Hotel. They were pretty far out. After Rising Up Angry closed though, those People’s Dances didn’t happen as much because they didn’t have the base of organizers that were pulling all of these people together. I tried to put on some [01:56:00] concerts and we started to -- what are we going to do now? I was interested in sports, I was interested in music, I was interested in politics. We started what we called Freedom Road Delivery to put on events and to distribute magazines and newspapers. I was also teaching at Columbia College. I was teaching a course called Organizing for Social Change. In the course of that course I started talking about building the mini progressive economy. I had been reading Mao on the base areas in China, I’d been reading about the Nation 57 �of Islam with businesses, I had been reading about the role of small businesses and credit unions in the independent struggle in Kenya, and I just had this idea that we would -- we had to start businesses that would not only provide people with work, but would serve the community [01:57:00] and would give the workers time to go do political work. At the heart of this was a restaurant. So I’m teaching this class, I said, “We’re going to have a restaurant, we’re going to have a daycare center, we’re going to have bicycle repair co-op, automobile repair coop, we’re going to have art galleries, we’re going to have free people’s health clinics, anything the people needed we were going to do. Someone offered to give me money, which they did not do, to open a restaurant. It was either going to be called -- I was doing a lot of running, I was eating healthy food, I was influenced by Frances Moore Lappé, Diet for a Small Planet, how you cannot meet the world’s protein needs on a meat-based diet. You had to do like a Chinese restaurant, a lot of vegetables, and rice, and a little bit of meat. And I started talking about the restaurant. She said she’d offer some -- she offered us money to do it, didn’t give it to us, but that got us going. In August, on August 11 in 1976 Katie Hogan and Stormy Brown, [01:58:00] who was my ex-wife already, along with her mother Jean, started working on the place, and we opened August 11th. We started working on it May 1st. It was the first time we didn’t do any May Day stuff. JJ: You’re talking about the Heartland Café. MJ: We opened the Heartland Café. It was either going to be Sweet Home Chicago or Heartland Café, so it became Sweet Home Chicago’s Heartland Café. We 58 �opened August 11. We had 43 customers. JJ: In Rogers Park. MJ: In Rogers Park. We’ve been here since then. We’re just about to complete our thirty-sixth year on August 11 and I’m very happy to say that Katie Hogan and I, who have been there carrying on for many years, we have taken in a business partner named Tom Rosenfeld. He has an organic farm in Michigan, sells cider under the name of Earth First Cider. He clearly made some dough somewhere else. I think he will keep the integrity of the Heartland, the tradition, and obviously there will be some little bumps in the road, but [01:59:00] Katie and I are still part owners, and we are still working there for another year, and we’re about to engage on our reupping our -- not only keeping our radio show going, but selling the Heartland Journal, finishing some books, holding some events. I kind of envision a big space with art on the walls and you coming to talk, you showing some film, speakers. JJ: Let’s hear the different components of it, because you had the radio show. MJ: Yeah, we have the radio show, I have books in the works, we have certainly a lot of contacts with people who need to share what they’ve got going. JJ: And this came from the bookstore also, it’s kind of like an extension. MJ: Yeah. JJ: Of that time. MJ: Our bookstore in Rising Up Angry, we had a bookstore, general store, at Heartland, and what I do next will be more like education, art, advocating, social justice, etcetera. [02:00:00] I don’t know what this will be called and when it will 59 �happen. JJ: It also kind of comes from the base area of Mao, so I mean -- MJ: Everything the people need. JJ: Everything what? MJ: Everything the people need. Kind of where I was always at. I said if the people want -- the people are -- I believe in something I would called comprehensive consciousness. A lot of people are focused on one thing or another. To me -some people use the term renaissance person, renaissance man, where you’ve got a lot of interests and you do a lot of different things. I think that that’s a -- it’s okay if you’re focused on one or two things in your life, it’s okay if you try and handle a lot of stuff. But I think that for people who are consciously political organizers and activists, you want to not exclude anything out there or any group of people, and you want to include lots of things that will help make a better world, make a better society, make a more comprehensive -- so I use this term [02:01:00] comprehensive consciousness to include not only social justice issues, but art, but music, the food we eat, everything. You know, everything has a place in this -- as Huey Newton used to call it the many layered onion. It had lots of layers. We’re the many something or other something or other. We’re working on the rap on it. I want to help to not only foster interest and learning from the things that you and I, we’ve all experienced and done, but to do it in a way that reinforces the new activism, the new forces of social justice. I used a slogan on our radio show that says, “Do good in the world because the world needs all the good that you do.” “Do good in the world because the world needs 60 �all the good that you do.” And I believe that. I think that we want to encourage people to do good in the world [02:02:00] and I think we want to continue to try and take on people who we consider our adversaries and win them over to make them see the ills of what they’re about or to just clearly know that they’re on the other side. As well as reinforce people who are expanding their own awareness and their own consciousness, they’re just beginning to grasp what the world is all about, what’s already happened, what’s about to happen, what could happen. I like to use the thing we’ve got to know where we’re coming from. We’ve got to really know where we’re at in order to have a really clear vision about where we’re going to go. JJ: In 1975 I ran for alderman in the 46th Ward. MJ: I would have voted for you but I wasn’t voting at that time and I wasn’t living in that ward. JJ: Right, so you also had been working with the alderman in this area. MJ: Joe Moore. David Orr. JJ: (inaudible) the committee for a while? MJ: No, I’m not the committeeman. I’m actually the President of the Democratic Party Organization [02:03:00] in the 49th Ward. It’s elected by the membership but it’s not elected by the populus as a whole. In Chicago you have 50 wards, every ward as an alderman, and every ward has a representative both to the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, which doesn’t really matter in this town. Or the Green Party. Any party that’s running. In this ward we have Joe Moore is our long-time alderman and David Orr is the board committeeman who 61 �is like the rep from the party to the central committee of the Democratic Party. JJ: He’s a progressive -- MJ: He’s kind of progressive, yeah, he’s progressive. Joe Moore’s been one of the most progressive. I think Joe’s having to figure out how he deals with this mayor, Mayor Rahm Emmanuel, who does some really neat things, and does some stuff that makes us crazy. I’ve got to say that when he showed up at the Heartland for an event that was going on, [02:04:00] he talked to a number of students, and Emanuel lauded the Heartland as this historic institution, it’s been so important to the community. He then turns to me at the end and he says, “How was that?” I gave him a five and then I jumped up and hugged him. Where is security? But I also -- there’s many things he’s doing that I do not like. So it’s a mixed bag. But I don’t think it’s an easy job. And back then we would say that’s good, don’t vote, we’re against this, we’re against that, we’re for some altruistic utopian vision. I think you have to be realistic in real life. You’ve got to work with what you’ve got, you’ve got to defend what you have. Even in left theory, whether it’s Mao, whether it’s Lenin, anyone, at times you’ve got to be in the united front where you’re going into the lowest common denominator of inclusiveness [02:05:00] of people who are on your side in order to keep out some more reactionary forces. If you are solidified and you have power -- let’s say Obama was not under such attack from the forces on the right with so much money, then maybe we could be -- I would be more critical of Obama, and I would be pushing him to left more. But right now you’re defending what we got, holding on, so that we have a sea that’s not too polluted to swim in during the next four years after he’s re-elected. 62 �That’s kind of the way I think about it. So I don’t mind being associated with the Democratic Party. I make jokes, say I am the President of the 49th Ward Democratic Party Organization, which was a move to my right. (laughs) And I’ve also -- I’ve got to say I’m good at mixing things, influences together. [02:06:00] I’m not necessarily an original thinker, although I’ve put together stuff that are unique from parts of things and given them my own twist. If I hang around with you, I’m going to take on some of your stuff and filter it and utilize it. Same thing with you. And I think that’s just way it is. JJ: Kind of you as Paul -- MJ: You as Paul Wozniak who came up out of Rising Up Angry and is the videographer, along with his lovely wife, Mary Wozniak. Not the same Mary Wozniak from the old Rising Up Angry but Mary Wozniak who’s married to Paul now. They worked closely with me on the Life in the Heartland Show. They’re in on all the plans of where we’re going next and how that’s going to be. We’ll include you too, Cha-Cha. JJ: Any final thoughts? MJ: I think I’ve said enough. (laughter) END OF VIDEO FILE 63 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/895f7cee838f871865322b48dee6a11e.mp4 1746257879ebee38fc494a01870e03f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Michael Gaylord James vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_James_Michael Title A name given to the resource Michael Gaylord James video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James, Michael Description An account of the resource A resident of Chicago’s Roger’s Park neighborhood, Mike James was the first leader of Rising Up Angry, a white, working-class group formed in the late 1960s and early 1970s that sought to organize residents of Lakeview/Uptown and offer a range of free or low cost services to the community including a free legal clinic, free health service, a women’s discussion group, occasional free pet-care clinic, and a variety of community events. The group also published a newspaper, the only underground newspaper aimed specifically at white, blue-collar greaser youth in Chicago at that time. The paper presented a combination of international news with news from local Chicago neighborhoods. Rising Up Angry members were also known for their distinctive way of dressing – dark banlon shirts, leather jackets, baggy pants, and pointed toe shoes. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f60478ed28c483a4fd7e8bd72306c978.mp4 a1fd3aa1e6f707b099bc1318cdb0657c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/007f755410111ad46080ff9fb90ad0c5.pdf 49d1d3906c686f098297897a44053cb8 PDF Text Text Jamieson, Jimmy Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Jimmy Jamieson Length of Interview: (2:11:08) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Jimmy Jamieson of Kentwood, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Jimmy start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Newport News, Virginia in 1946, my dad was in the service, he got back from the war and we lived there. Moved to Michigan, that’s where he’s from and went to four schools here, ended up graduating from Rogers High School, went to Grand Rapids junior college. Interviewer: “So Rogers is in Wyoming, Michigan which is a Grand Rapids suburb, yeah.” Correct, yeah. Interviewer: “And what was your father doing for work then once you’re up in Michigan?” (1:18) He was a- He worked for Johnson’s Furniture he was a foreman in the yard there, yard foreman, and then he ended up working for Erb Lumber and it became Carlisle Lumber and stuff like that, so I went to Lee, Grandville, Newaygo, and then Rogers which is, there was a Wyoming Park High School and then a Rogers High School and they combined the two a few years ago, couple years ago, and that’s where I went. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Okay, so as you grew up in west Michigan- Alright, and then when did you finish high school?” I graduated in ‘65 and then I went to Grand Rapids junior college then, we nicknamed it “Raider High” of course, and wanted to be a school teacher. I wanted to do industrial arts, shop teacher, and so I was taking engineering classes there, and then I got drafted in February andInterviewer: “Okay, now if you’re in college did you not have a deferment or?” No, back then if you were single and over 18 they didn’t care what your grade point was, they didn’t care what you were doing. I went to the draft board and they gave me an extension so that I finally got drafted in July, they let me finish the semester. Interviewer: “Right, well how many credit hours were you taking?” (2:42) I was going full time, I had 12, I mean that’s full. Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean because that was cause I’ve interviewed other people who get drafted around the time you did and as long as they had a full load then they didn’t get drafted, but they didn’t do that for you. No, they- Myself, a couple of my high school buddies we were all going to J.C we all got drafted at the same time and he ended up going to Korea and another one went to Germany andInterviewer: “So you go in, in July of ‘66 then where do they send you for basic training?” Well I guess I was kind of important because they sent me to Fort Knox in Kentucky, which is armor, Hell on Wheels, and I was there for 13 days and that didn’t work out so they sent me down to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the 101st Airborne, I took my basic training there. Interviewer: “Okay but when you’re in basic, I mean Fort Knox is sort of the standard �Jamieson, Jimmy place for guys from Michigan to go for army basic training or pretty much anything, and then same with Fort Campbell at that point it was setting up to do the same thing and they took the overflow from other places. So what did your basic training consist of?” At Fort Campbell, Kentucky they trained us as airborne, hopefully they could- Cause airborne is volunteer only and so our instructors were all rangers, our captain, company commander was a green beret guy so you didn’t walk on base, you ran. Airborne ran everywhere and so that’s how we were trained on Paul Bunyan’s gym stuff, that was- We stayed in barracks that hadn’t been used since 1951, no windows in them, no doors are on them, we had to nail doors up with two by fours and, you know it’s just old stuff and that was our basic. So they pretty much convinced us that we were indestructible, I mean the bullets would bound off our chest they had us so convinced. Interviewer: “Okay, so at this stage it’s still the hundred and first guys who were doing a lot of the actual training, you haven’t yet created a conventional training cadre for larger numbers of guys, and they’re just opening this up for basic. Okay, so you get the benefit of that I guess. How much of an emphasis was there on discipline, following orders, that kind of thing?” (5:08) Very much so, then they could hit you over the head with a nightstick, you know if you’re marching you’re out of step, call you names of course, it was- They really couldn’t hit you, but if you were out of step they’d reach in with a night stick and rap you on the- Cause you wore a helmet liner- Pardon me, and if you were out of step they’d put the stick in between your legs and of course you’d fall, then the next guy would fall, and then the next guy would fall, and as far as the discipline went if you were screwing up they would make the whole squad, platoon, do push-ups while you stood there and watched. So they created teamwork, they wanted you to depend on each other and protect each other, and so that was real mind opening, that was an experience that I had never experienced before is learning to depend on somebody. Interviewer: “Okay, now how long did it take you to kind of adjust to that, or adjust to life in the army?” �Jamieson, Jimmy You gotta remember I’m from a military family so about three weeks once you get over the being homesick and you learned to meet your fellow troopers, and that was the heart- In my case, I stuttered, I could hardly get a word out sometimes. I had a hard time in high school, I went to four different speech schools because I stuttered so bad- Man, so when you take harassment from your friends supposedly and guys in the Army would pick on you, the bullying affect you know, and so I wouldn’t talk much but when your platoon sergeant or your squad leader heard what was going on he would jump all over them because he’s your fellow teammate, you don’t pick on your teammate. So that was learned by the company, the squad, the platoon, that even though I stuttered you didn’t make fun of them. So you worked as a team, you learned that real quick. Interviewer: “Okay, now was following orders something that came fairly naturally?” (7:44) Yeah, I had no problem following orders. Interviewer: “Now were there some other guys that you were training with who had more trouble with that?” Oh yeah, you know they’re the alpha male, I say the “alpha male” and I was all- I turned 21 in Vietnam, so I was older than a lot of the folks in our outfit so- And coming from a military family I learned not to volunteer for anything and it was- That was, I’m not gonna say easy for me, but I knew how to play the game if that’s what you wanna call it. Interviewer: “Right, and were you in good physical shape when you went in?” Yes, in high school I wrestled for four years and played tennis, ran track, played one year of football. I was too small so I did the other stuff, but I was in pretty good shape yeah, it didn’t take long for me to- You know, on your marches and your runs, here again in airborne,you know, I say airborne. I was not in airborne but I was trained by airborne so. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “So they just took the kind of had-nosed approach that we associate with Airborne training.” Yep, you run in place or you do a double time thing, you didn’t- Once we learned how to march that was fine, but then if you were gonna go to the rifle range or you was gonna go you had to go get your shots, you didn’t march you double time jog in place, and you better be in step. So the airborne runs no matter where they go. Interviewer: “Alright, now how long did the basic last?” (9:25) Eight weeks I believe it was. Interviewer: “And where do they send you next?” Fort Meade, Maryland. Interviewer: “Okay, what were you doing there?” Field artillery- No, scratch that. Fort Sill, I’m ahead of myself, Fort Sill, Oklahoma and there I was trained on the 105 howitzer, and that was- Here again we stayed in barracks that were used in 1950, old, wooden barracks, nothing new, all Vietnam instructors. At the end we were- They put up on a board, you know like Germany, Korea, here and here, and Hawaii, and Vietnam and so I looked at all that- Now this is where you guys are gonna go, they didn’t know who was gonna go but this is where this unit is gonna send troops. So I had heard stories about Korea is 13 months, Germany is 18 months, and they only wanted like five people to go to Hawaii, and that was like 13 or 18 months. So I didn’t- So a whole bunch of us guys said- Of course you gotta remember now, we’re invincible okay, the bullets are gonna bounce off his chest and blah blah blah blah blah. So we volunteered for Vietnam. Interviewer: “Okay, now before we move forward let’s go back, what does the artillery training consist of?” �Jamieson, Jimmy The artillery? Interviewer: “Artillery training, so what are you doing while you’re at Fort Sill?” Oh, you’re learning the velocities of the 105 howitzer, how it works, what the projectile, you know, how all that is put together. The projectile is 33 pounds it’s a semi fixed, in other words it comes in a wooden box and then your powder charge is there, your projectile, and your brass. So whatever the fire mission is, whatever the F.D.C Fire Direction Control and wherever the mission is. They will tell you how far, what elevation, it’s deflection quadrant, then you would pick the right powder charge, or they’d tell you what powder charge, and then you would put that in the canister and then affix the projectile to it, and then the fuse whatever fuse that they wanted, impact fuse, HE explosive round and so on. A delayed fuse or if you’re gonna shoot white phosphorus, you know, Willie P we call it. (12:00) So you learn all that and how to lay the guns depending on how you want the rounds to hit, you would lay the gun in that fashion. One gun in base piece, so in other words that’s the most accurate gun, of the six guns base piece is the most accurate, and then- So then they would lay the gun in a lazy W if they wanted the rounds to hit like that, or straight line effect, or in behind each other. So you learn all that and then you would go out into the prairie and the airborne was to infiltrate us, and that was one of their night jumps they had to do, and so you could see these guys falling out of the sky, and we would break up into three and four man teams and we’d go out and capture them. Now they were supposed to infiltrate us, but we captured most of them. Interviewer: “Okay, the parachute is a little bit of a giveaway.” Well it was supposed to be a night jump but it really wasn’t a night jump so we could see them and we knew where they landed and stuff like that so yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you learn all the different jobs on a gun?” Yes, there’s a powder man, and a gunner, and a radio man, and because I stuttered I couldn’t be a �Jamieson, Jimmy radio man, because you have to repeat deflection and quadrants and if you’re- I have trouble with like nines, and you don’t say nine you say niner or n-n-n-niner, s-s-seven, you know. So they kept me off the radio, I could answer the radio and say “Fire mission, fire mission.” So I can do radio watch, you’d stand watch and that kind of thing, but yeah they kept me off the radio because we didn’t want to blow somebody else up. Interviewer: “Alright, now was this a towed weapon, something you’d pull behind a vehicle?” The 105 is a towed vehicle- Or a towed howitzer, yes. Interviewer: “And it was with that, the variety, they had a split trail where you open up the two-” (14:15) Yep, the trail split up and then they had spades on the back and they would hog into the ground, and you would put it up on a jack and set on a pedestal, so the wheels were off the ground. Same thing with the 155 howitzer, towed vehicle, you had a deuce and a half truck that towed it and that’s what I had in Vietnam, started out on. Interviewer: “Alright, okay and with the- How many men would normally be on a gun crew, or what’s the official number?” Seven on a 105, 11 on a 155, but in Vietnam the most we ever had was six if you include the sergeant, or the chief, the gun chief. He made seven but he was the talley and we’re the dewey so. Interviewer: “Right, and then did you have- Would you have a machine gun with the gun or any kind of defensive weapons or just what your personal weapons would be?” Once I got to Vietnam- Now I really don’t know what’s in a 105 gun battery, because I was never sent to one of them in Vietnam, but when I got to Vietnam and we had the one pipe I’d- �Jamieson, Jimmy You’d have the 50 caliber mounted on a tripod, and then each gun section has a 50, an M60 which is the 308 M60 machine gun, and then you have a M79 grenade launcher which is called a thump gun, we called it that, or a blooper infantry calls it a blooper, and then you had your individual rifle, which then was an m14, and mine was an m14 with a selector switch on it. So we also had a full automatic, and each gun section has a 12 gauge shotgun and mine happened to be a Stevens. Interviewer: “So in Vietnam you had a lot of firepower with you, which you enabled but we’re not all the way there yet. Okay, but basically you’re training only on 105’s at Fort Sill?” Yes, yep. Interviewer: “Okay and how long does that training last?” (16:20) Eight to ten weeks I believe how long- I think that’s about how long. Interviewer: “The standard is eight weeks. Okay, now once you’ve completed that now what do you do?” Well the last two weeks that I- They asked for people who wanted to be rangers, and there’s ranger airborne and then there’s straight rangers back then. So, I thought “Oh what the heck.” you know, so I volunteered rangers. So we’d get up at 4:30 in the morning, before everybody else gets up, and you’re in your green t-shirt, your green boxer shorts, and your black combat boots, and you’re running, and you run, and you do ranger training for a couple three hours and then you go do your stuff and that went on for two weeks, and then I got sent to- I don’t know if we’re that far yet or not, but I got sent to- After I volunteered and home on leave I got sent to Pleiku, which is up in the northern part of Vietnam, but the 75th Rangers. Interviewer: “So you did your- So the only ranger training you had in the states was actually at Fort Sill?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Correct. Interviewer: “As part of your A.I.T okay, and then how long a leave do they give you home, was that a month?” I had 30 days. Interviewer: “Okay, and then how do they actually get you to Vietnam?” On a C-141 troop transport, there was 150 of us in there and then jeeps, they had jeeps in there, and then pallets of duffle bags. So you marched in you had rows and rows and rows of seats and then you’re looking, you’re sitting backwards and you’re looking, at duffle bags and a couple of jeeps they had sideways and wooden skids or metal skids and that’s the whole flight. Interviewer: “Alright, so no chartered commercial plane for you, you get- Where did you fly out of?” (18:15) California- What is that, right out of Los Angeles, not Clark Air Force Base what- I can’t remember the name of that base. Interviewer: “Let’s see, Edwards or El Toro, El toro’s marines.” No, San FranciscoInterviewer: “San Francisco is Travis-” Travis! Travis Air Force Base, there you are, yep. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you stop any place on the way?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Guam, to refuel, we got out, stretched our legs, a couple hours dilly-dallying around and then get back on and flew. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you landed in Pleiku.” Pleiku, yup, and there- I was there for just a short time did some ranger training, we- The chinook helicopter and they would drop the cargo net out the back, and you’re loaded up with your rucksack and your rifle and you’d climb down this net. Then you’d run along the ground for 50 yards and then you’d climb back up and practice your compasses. Basic infantry stuff, and that didn’t last because I was going to be in field artillery attached to the 75th ranger battalion. Interviewer: “Okay, so you did a little bit of what the rangers do but the expectation is that you’re not really running around in the jungle with them.” Right, I’m not gonna be a ranger, wear ranger tabs, and stuff like that so, lurps or whatever they call them now. Interviewer: “Alright, so now you do the training with the unit and then now what do they do with you?” (19:57) Well they were getting ready to assign me to a unit, well then somehow somebody got a call that said “1st infantry division needs replacements.” So they loaded up 18 of us on a Caribou 16 and flew us down to Dĩ An, or actually it’s camp alpha in Saigon, and then I got assigned to the 8th Battalion, 6th Artillery in Vietnam, 1st Infantry Division. Interviewer: “Okay, and now this was gonna be- And then what kind of guns do you have there now?” There they flew me out in the field cause they were out in the field, they weren’t in a base camp, and I’m on a towed 155 howitzer, and I was assigned to the base piece number four gun. Sergeant Morgan was our gun chief, section leader, and so that was my home for the next year �Jamieson, Jimmy and three days so. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you join that gun crew, what role do you have on the crew?” I was considered- They just assigned me a number, I was a number two man which is the powder man, but an 11 man crew there’s six of us so you’re the powder man, you’re the projectile man, you’re the truck driver, you’re the machine gunner on top, you’re- You do everything, the radio man, everybody does everything, and so numbers didn’t mean anything. Interviewer: “Alright, and what’s your- When they first, when they fly you out, you’re going out in a helicopter to join the unit in the field?” Yup, on a huey. Interviewer: “Okay and when you kind of first come in and join what is your impression or what do you see when you land?” (21:47) Holy- What am I getting into. The helicopter ride was kind of cool, you know you take off from a base camp and it’s just really nice but when you go out into the field because of these snipers and what not. Now you gotta remember this is not a- There’s no- The perimeter is not much there’s no concertina wire, very seldom concertina wire. It’s just- Oh geez, there’s howitzers there and what not, you know and holy crap, but they come in and they go around and they land like right now. It’s just like you’re a rock falling right out of the sky because they don’t want to get shot at, and yeah so when they come in, they come in fast, tail down, set it down. When they take off the nose drops and man they’re gone, they’re- Yeah it’s like riding in an elevator about twice as fast, you know. Interviewer: “Alright, and so they just get you off the helicopter and then what kind of reception do you get when you join the unit?” �Jamieson, Jimmy “Oh are you the new grunt? Are you the new guy?” Alright where’s the C.P? “Over there” and “Go report in.” So you’d go report in to the first sergeant and tell them who you are and they welcome you into the beautiful southern vacation land, you know and blah blah blah blah blah, grab your blankity blank and come with me, and you know. So the first sergeant took me down there, he introduced me to Sergeant Morgan and that was it, and then he did the rest. Interviewer: “Alright, so did Sergeant Morgan and the other people in the crew, did they actually try to orient you and tell you what to do?” Oh yeah, yep they were very friendly “Where are you from?” You know, “What do you do?” Blah blah blah blah blah so you know it’s like reading a- “Oh we finally got something to read, we got a new guy we’ll ask him questions.” Interviewer: “Alright so you’re not being shut out by the group or anything else like that, you’re right in there.” (24:00) Nope, they were very friendly guys, got to know them a lot yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and so now- And how many guns were in the battery?” Six. Interviewer: “Okay and were they all together at the time you joined them?” Yeah, we were- Of course they’re all laid out and what we- Usually we use what they call a lazy W, and the bursting radius of a 155 howitzer is 65 meters, so they’re laid out in a lazy W like this and then back and then like this, and we’re base piece we’re number four gun here. So everything overlapped, so the guns are like 30 yards- 30 meters apart, so that when the shells land they overlap and anything in that bursting radius is dead. If the shrapnel doesn’t get you, the concussion will, it’ll blow your eyeballs right out of your head. So yeah that’s how you laid the guns, and they weren’t GPS like they are now, this was aiming stakes so you’d have to put �Jamieson, Jimmy aiming stakes out and stuff like that. So yeah it was really interesting to- And here again the 155’s, they’re up on a pedestal too just like the 105’s with the spades, and so you hope you don’t end up in a base camp someplace where they’ll fall through, which ours did, but anyway yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and now in the field like would they dig gun pits that the guns would go in, or were they just sitting up there on the ground?” Just sitting up in the air. Interviewer: “So high profile and people could see it?” Very high profile. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the first night like?” (25:43) Scary, very scary. It’s- On my part, the guys had been there for a while were old hat, you know, and you keep score. Well “I’m a short timer.” or “I’m a long timer” You know, and you keep calendar and- But, jumpy, very jumpy “What’s this noise? What’s that?” Oh that’s just somebody over there, a sniper or guns would go off and you’d come up off the floor, and very nerve wracking which didn’t help my stuttering any, and you know “Fire mission! Fire mission!” Well then okay now what- You know, I’ve never trained on a 155. So they didn’t put me on powder right away because putting the proper powder charge in there, I was a loader for quite a while, you just picked the round up and threw it, and now you have loaders but they’re too slow. So you gotta remember I’m like 118 pounds, and I’m picking up a 97 pound projectile, and you put on a three pound fuse so it’s basically 100 pounds, and I’m picking it up and putting it into the tube and then launching it, loading it with– And you gotta jam it into the lands and grooves so it doesn’t fall back out, then put your powder charge in, then close the breach block, and then you’ve gotta put a primer in there, which is actually a blank of a 38 special. So you put that in there, close the primer thing, and then there’s a lanyard, and then the gunner would, you know, if they say “Fire!” then you’d pull the lanyard and the gun recoils back. So I did– I was a loader and I’d pull– I’d fire the gun, stuff that didn’t have a whole lot of responsibility to it because I �Jamieson, Jimmy was the newbie. Interviewer: “Right, did you have fire missions that first night?” Oh absolutely, almost every night you’re shooting H & I’s, harassment and interdiction. Interviewer: “Interdiction, yeah. What’s the purpose of that?” Suspected BC concentrations, whether the bird dog or a patrol had seen a Viet Cong patrol out some place or N.V.A and so you would just shoot out and hopefully there’s somebody still there yet or stop them from coming in. So you would shoot– Each gun was assigned, and whether you shoot two rounds, three rounds, if there was a fort observer out there and if he noticed some action during the day and all of a sudden there was more action then they would plan– And it wouldn’t be like nine o’clock at night or at ten o’clock we’re gonna shoot. It’d be some weird “At 11:37 we’re gonna shoot three rounds.” or it was at 2:18 in the morning, I mean. So you just never knew, and then if you get a fire mission in between there then you’re up, so it was not at all uncommon for us to go a couple days without sleep. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you join the unit what area are you operating in?” (29:13) I believe then I was around Quan Loi up by the Black Virgin Mountain, Tay Ninh, Quan Loi. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re kind of to north and a little bit maybe west of Saigon?” Yeah, 40, 50 miles north of Saigon. Interviewer: “Okay, about how far from the Cambodian border do you think you were?” We were east of the border probably about the same, 40, 50, 60 miles. Interviewer: “Alright, and what kind of activity was going on or what sort of enemy �Jamieson, Jimmy presence was there?” Our job was to– Amongst different specific operations, our job was to kind of keep the supply line on Highway One, Thunder Road, Highway 13, Ho Chi Minh Trail, it has many names, but our job with the– For quite a while we were attached to the special forces guys, or they attached to us. Our battery commander, Captain Pierpoint wanted to skip major and go right to lieutenant colonel, and so he volunteered us to be their main gun support. So wherever those folks went looking for trouble, and they usually found it, that was our job and they would attack supply routes or they had to go get some N.V.A person or whatever, and try to get some prisoners and so a lot of times they would fly into us and then go out in the field for a couple days or they’d be dropped off out in a field and then come into us. So I’ve got pictures of an A team or a B team marching off into the– They would follow our night patrols out, ambush patrols out, and then once they get into the jungle– I mean it looks like holy cow look at all these guys going out there, you know. Well they would break off and go on their mission but if there was people watching, Viet Cong watching, it’s just one group going out and so you’ve got to be careful because you really didn’t know a lot of time who was where, and so if we got hit you just kind of spray and pray out there and hopefully you don’t hit your own folks, you know. Interviewer: “Alright, now you’re talking about patrols going out so would you have infantry that were with you that would be going out?” (31:44) Yeah, when we got our– Once we get rid of the toads, in April of ‘67 they gave us M-109 or 155 propelled howitzers, self propelled, they’re now called the paladin and they’re GPS oriented, but anyways, we had the CAB with us the quarter CAB, and they would go out on ambush patrol when we had the towed howitzers, the commo section or the ammo group, you know. Those guys would go out on patrol, it’s more of a listening post an L.P Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re not– You basically, so the people who are part of the artillery would be going out doing small patrols as opposed to the larger–” Yeah the CAB, sometimes the CAB would go out with an 8 man patrol, 10 man, 12 man �Jamieson, Jimmy depending on what kind of ambush it was, and how much activity there was in the area, as to how many men went, and they would let us volunteer to go with them. Just to get off the guns, so we could get some sleep because ambush patrol they get more sleep than we do. So it was an experience, the CAB guys couldn’t figure out why we wanted to go on ambush, you know because they thought we had it made and you know tell them “How much sleep do you get?” Interviewer: “So we’re looking at your year in Vietnam so you have about a four month period when you got the towed 155 howitzers and so at that point is this before you start supporting the Special Forces, or do the Special Forces connect with you while you still have those?” The Special Forces guys we got connected with them with the self propelled howitzers. Interviewer: “Okay, so initially you’re supporting those regular line infantry units that are up kind of patrolling. Okay, and then do they get, during that first four months there, do they get involved in any kind of large operations or sweeps?” (33:45) Yeah we got– Just before we got our self propelled they were danger close and so they wanted one gun to fire. So they called on us, our base piece, and we fired 120 continuous rounds just as fast as we could fire them. Once we had zeroed in on them– And that was quite a mission, 120 rounds you’re hustling, and so that’s when I got my first Army combat/ACM it’s called Army Commendation Medal. One of the brigadier generals came to our gun club, or gun camp battery and each one of the guys in the gun section got one, so all six of us got a– Interviewer: “So why were they using just one gun?” Because of the area they were in, if you got– Remember the bursting radius, so we were danger close so they wanted the rounds danger close. So if you get six guns firing now you’re– It’s too much. Interviewer: “It’s a bigger area you’re blanketing.” �Jamieson, Jimmy So one gun is what they wanted and so they would give us the corrections either bring it in, left, right, you know out, back, but we just keep firing. Once we were on, keep them coming, so apparently we had a bunch of them in the open or something and so that was probably one of the hardest missions that we had to do. Interviewer: “Okay, now with the towed guns did you have trucks that would pull them or track vehicles?” The deuce and a half Army trucks. Interviewer: “Okay, and then how easy or hard was it to move around with those? Was there a decent road network there?” (35:33) No, gravel roads the– What we could tell was the Corps of Engineers, combat engineers. A lot of the times the mine sweeper would go out ahead of us because of the land mines, now they call them IEDs or something so, but they’d sometimes put a tank out in front of us on a convoy, and if the land mines weren’t large enough to take out a tank that’s fine but they’d take out our deuce and a half’s and stuff like that. So armored personnel characters, but then when we got the self propelled– Now you gotta remember we’re only 27 tons as opposed to 60 ton tank. So with two inches of aluminum armor, it opened us up like a sardine can. So we had two layers of sandbags on the floor and we would alternate, Jerry Putnam and I would alternate being the driver because if one driver all the time, well chances of him getting killed so we alternated. So if you’re not driving then you’re the machine gunner on top, so that 50 became–My deuce and I became real good friends. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you have the towed guns, in that period, you’re maybe not as close to the Cambodian border as you would be later?” Right, yep. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Okay, now did you normally have any infantry that stayed with you or do you provide your own security?” Yep, that was the 2nd Infantry, there was a unit called Light Horse which was a mortar platoon, they were with us but when you get attacked from the rear the mortars aren’t much good up close. So then they sent up a couple of armored personnel carriers, and then they gave up a couple of jeeps with M-60’s on them. So we were just kind of a– Whatever our commander could grab, you know, and we spent most of our time up around the Michelin Rubber Tree Plantations along the Cambodian border keeping that open, trying to– Cause we owned it during the day and the Viet Cong and NVA owned it at night, and so we had a lot of fire missions all along there and at that point with the towed vehicles we didn’t have any need to go into Cambodia so to speak. Interviewer: “Yeah, so you were– But now while you were with the towed vehicles, would your camps get attacked at night?” (38:20) Oh yeah, we– There we did have concertina wire, you would put– You would put claymores out, guys would hang stuff on the wire, you know empty pop cans with stones in them, you know stuff like that. So we put out an LP, we call it a listening post, and then we’d put other guys way out and there’s other stories that when we got self propelleds other things that we had done with the Cav, but yeah with the towed vehicles and then you gotta remember to that when you have to really swing guns around you gotta lift those spades up, and then twist the gun, and then relay it again. So you gotta run these flashlights out and so that the gunner can lay out– Line the sights up on the two flashlights. Well I was running the back one out and there was some concertina wire back there that I had forgotten about and I got tangled up in it, you know, and the flashlight goes flying and that’s how I got all these scars on my face and so they literally had to cut me, the more I thrashed around the more I got tangled up in it. So you’re of course just sweating the adrenaline, it’s hot, it’s at night, and they were cutting me out of it because I’m just full of blood. They thought I got hit by something and so they cut me out of it and the medic he’s wiping me off and he’s “Awe Jesus Jamie,” He says, “You know you just got puncture wounds, get out.” You know, no big deal. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Now, so again– Well in that first phase there while you’re still with artillery, did you face any serious attacks or just very stray sniper fire or mortars?” Oh yeah, we would have mortars, rockets come in. They would come in danger close where you would actually have to open up with an M-60,guys would come up and lay between the guns and it– Usually we were firing over a ravine, so you can see the flashes from the mortars and then you hear the shh-tump! You know and then you could see the rocket taking off and so you’d duck, you know and I’m not one much to duck, I’d go for the gun. Interviewer: “Okay, but would they actually make any ground attacks, would you get people trying to infiltrate the wire and getting through?” (40:50) Yeah, we never had anybody with the towed vehicles come in that close, which is good for me because it acclimated me into Vietnam. Your body has to get acclimated to the humidity and the heat and the monsoon seasons, and so of course you’re spitting tacks because, you know, “What the hell we just get here we gotta fill all these damn–” You know with the towed vehicles, the howitzers, you have to fill a lot of sandbags, and then when you get marching orders to move out you can’t leave them sandbags. So somebody else would come in and pick them up, or they’d say “Just take a machete and slice them up.” and some of the stuff, flashlight batteries was one of them, we change flashlight batteries and just throw them away, well come to find out flashlight batteries the Viet Cong would pick them up and then solder them together and then use it because in the sunlight they would recharge a little bit, enough to ignite a landmine or a booby trap. So we had to take a machete or a knife and cut the batteries up so they couldn’t be used, I mean– And the brass sometimes with the 105 guys they would leave their brass, well they would take that brass and cut it up and use it for shrapnel. Interviewer: “So every time you move you’ve got to police the area and clean everything up.” Yup. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Okay, alright and now you then make the switch– I guess, now while you were again with the towed unit and you’re kind of more in the middle of the country, were there a lot of civilians around?” Yes, sometimes just set up alongside the road, sometimes you’re out adjacent to the rice paddies, you could generally tell if you were gonna be hit at night because the civilians– There wouldn’t be any, they’d be gone, and then usually during the day “Okay it’s gonna be a good night, we’re not gonna get hit tonight.” Because the civilians and their oxes, you know, and their water buffalo– But if you didn’t see anybody, you knew you were gonna get hit. Interviewer: “Okay, now did the civilians make any effort to interact with you, either sell you things or anything else like that?” (43:07) Oh my goodness, yeah pineapples. It got to the point where they would inject pineapples with formaldehyde or battery acid, try to sell you beer, the tiger 33 beer because we didn’t have any ice, you had to drink it warm but what we ended having to do is take the beer bottle and tip it upside down and then watch the glass go to the neck before you bought it, because what they would do is pop the top on it, and then take a clear like– I’m just gonna use like a mayonnaise jar cause it’s clear glass, and pulverize it to a powder and pour that in your Coca-Cola or whatever and then you would think it’s sand. “God I’m so thirsty” You know, and what do you do you’re drinking that glass and it gets into your intestines and then it lacerates your intestines and your bowels and all that kind of stuff. So now you’ve gotta get out of the field, so we learned that real quick and eating pineapples and you know you just didn’t buy it. They’d give you sugar cane, you’d buy short stocks of sugar cane that had glass in it and of course you’re chewing on it you’re thinking “God it’s sand.” Well we learned otherwise. So now we can’t– We couldn’t buy anything from anybody. Interviewer: “And were there– Was there other kinds of stuff available and would prostitutes try to approach you?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah, yeah that was– $5, $5 you know, G.I number one girl and G.I number one– No you’re number 10, $5, you tried to chew them down and once the battery commander found out about them coming in then of course that stopped real quick, but we had a few guys that caught VD, thankfully I– That’s not worth it for me but yeah. We’d have a barber come in, cut your hair, you’d stand there with a rifle while he cuts your buddy’s hair, and I got a picture of Tom Novickus getting his haircut and then it was my turn. So I’d give him the rifle and then he’d stand there and watch him because they use these hand clippers and then they take a razor to trim around and they didn’t want you to slit your neck– Throat. So you’d make sure that he didn’t do that. Interviewer: “And was this a period where they were also selling drugs and that sort of thing?” (45:40) They tried to sell us drugs, you could get a bag of marijuana about that big around, about that tall for a dollar and a half, and I was talking this with another fella yesterday on the radio, on these T.V shows I don’t know where they get that from– This guy I was talking to was a colonel and he was a– You know who he is, but he was a battery commander or company commander and he was a brigade commander and– With the big red one, and we never saw that, we weren’t allowed to smoke it in the first place, but you had to be on your toes. I mean you had to be alert 100% of the time, and you had to depend on your partner, your buddy, and other guys in the gun crew. I mean if they needed help you went over there and helped them, if our gun wasn’t picked for the fire mission then you helped them. I mean that was– So you had to be alert you had to be in touch with all your faculties. Interviewer: “And that’s pretty consistent and even in periods where drug use got a lot worse the units that were actually out in the field, and you’re out in the field you’re not in some big base camp, there you had relatively low amounts of that sort of thing and not when anybody needed to be on. So anyway, but I can ask these questions in part because they’re part of the stereotype and so forth and I don’t know well okay do you see that or not see that and so forth. Okay, so are there other things that happened while you were �Jamieson, Jimmy with the towed unit or other impressions from that period that kind of stand out in your mind?” Yeah, when you’d move into an area we would try to have the combat engineers go in, because you don’t know what you’re moving into because you’ve got to lay these guns and sometimes there’d be a 105 unit with us, sometimes the eight inchers would be with us or the 175s the long toms. So you had to be real careful of what you’re moving into, one time we moved into an area that was a Viet Cong base camp, and so we set the guns all up and we’re in fire mission and our right spade fell through a tunnel and– The spade broke through the tunnel unbeknownst to us, you know, the gun tipped over and went “Oh my God!” So of course now everybody’s grabbing their rifle, they ceased the fire mission, they sent the infantry out the tunnel rats, you know, just maybe 40, 50 yards away and there’s a tunnel right there that was missed. So now the tunnel rats are going in there with their flashlights and their 45s and you’d hear a thunk! You know there was actually BC in the tunnels yet. So that was one of the more hair raising– You know a howitzer tips over, I mean you know, we broke through the tunnel we’re right on top of them after we’d blown it– You know, that’s kind of what you did you just blow the hell out of an area and then move in there, well it got missed. Interviewer: “If they’re underground then they may still be there, okay. Alright, now you make the switch over now and you start– And now you get self propelled guns, now they’re on– You have tracked vehicles with the guns mounted on them and you can kind of drive around more and– Initially did the battery, when you first started supporting the Special Forces, was the battery kind of on its own?” (49:16) Yeah, we were– Here again you gotta remember who our battery commander was, was Captain Pierpoint who through ranks– This is a– I don’t wanna say a pilot program because I don’t know how long it had been going on whether they were using the gun’s other units, but he volunteered us to do this one. So it was probably three months and so we would go on what they called S&D’s, search and destroy, recon missions where you just go through a village and sometimes are 85% VC sympathizers or maybe they’re on our side sympathizing. You could pretty much tell if they were a VC sympathizer, you would see male, guys, boys around. If they were �Jamieson, Jimmy sympathizers for the United States there wouldn’t be any males around because the VC would either kill them or draft them into their– So there’d just be a bunch of women around. So you learn these little things but yeah when you’re going through with the self propelled and then they put the CABs with us because we were getting hit from the rear a lot. Interviewer: “Okay, and you’ve heard of them as the Quarter CABs, 1st Battalion, 4th Cavalry Regiment, but an armored cavalry unit so they–” Armored cavalry unit, yep. Interviewer: “So they have tanks and armored personnel carriers.” (50:50) Yep and– Yeah you don’t mess with those boys, we have them– They shoot first, ask questions later, we like them, they– We didn’t have to pull any night guard, they did everything, they would lead the convoy. Yeah we got in trouble on a convoy, Captain Pierpoint was leading the convoy in a jeep and he was shooting monkeys with his personal– We could carry personal sidearms then, shooting at monkeys with a 38 special snub nose, and so when you hear that you recon by fire. So this one shoots this way and every– You know, so the command and control chopper had a colonel in it up above, over seeing the convoy, and so he stopped the convoy. Wanted to know what the hell was going on and of course everybody opened up, you know the CABs opened up with the 50s and the 60s and we opened up with the 50s and so on, and come to find out he was just shooting at monkeys as we were going. Interviewer: “I take it he only did that once?” Yes, yeah he was– He got his butt reamed right in front of us so they– I got pictures of the chopper landing cause we’re like the 2nd vehicle back and– But we had no clue what was going on, I mean. Interviewer: “Alright, was there a period there where you were operating with Special Forces before you had the CAB attached to you?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah, that’s where we got the CAB, we had a mortar platoon and some infantry guys but when you’re shooting support for the CAB– Or for the Special Forces guys then the Viet Cong surmise that if we take a small contingency and attack the howitzer unit from the back, they’d have to swing tubes around to protect themselves. So that would draw the fire away from the Green Berets and then they figured that they could get the Green Berets. Well sometimes we were in Cambodia and sometimes we weren’t, but try to find another artillery unit that would relieve us takes time, and then they gotta get acclimated to shooting over there too. So in the meantime we’ve got a fire fight going behind us because we can’t swing tubes around so you take your M60 or whatever and your thump-gun and you’d go help the infantry out and then now that’s reducing the amount of folks we have to run our guns. So somebody- Apparently Captain Pierpoint got the idea that maybe we should have a CAB unit, something that’s mobile. Interviewer: “Alright, now you got involved at a time that isn’t actually using machine guns and so forth to defend your position with him. You’ve got some pictures that we were looking at before the session started, can you talk about that incident and what happened there?” (54:00) Well we had been hit several times as you saw in the pictures. So the rockets and mortars started coming in and the guys were going towards the mortar holes, well I was pretty cocky back then, well I still am but– I wasn’t gonna die in a mortar hole. So I ran towards the gun and I got into the gun and I was loading it up and then in ours you can– The turret on the 50 goes all the way around and then the hatch cover flops up and you can put the gun on either side of the hatch cover, and since I’m right handed I had the hatch on this side to the left of the gun in case they’re shooting at me. So I went in there, and each gun carries 1500 rounds of 50 cal, so I was splicing you pick a cartridge out and put the next link in there and put it in. So I was hooking up a couple of machine gun belts, and then I took off the top. Well then here comes Sergeant Morgan our staff sergeant and he’s just “What blankity blank are you doing?” I said “I’m not dying in a fox hole, so he says “I’ll feed you.” So he’s linking belts together while I’m firing, and I’m strafing that jungle that you saw there, and the bodies are coming, cause there’s no concertina wire. We pulled our listening posts in, so they’re coming in and we’re spraying. Well once I started firing �Jamieson, Jimmy then other guns, guys went to the 50s and they were close where you couldn’t drop tubes down and shoot. So now we’ve got M-60’s going, we've got thump-guns going, gun personnel are now infantry, and so I fired all 1500 rounds of my 50, burnt the barrel up, changed barrels out, and got sick as a goat. You saw the thing that I– This was part of my PTSD, the nightmares and flashbacks and through counseling and other things that I’ve done I can talk about it. Humans, animals period, are not designed to kill their own if you look at two rams battering their heads and then two deer– Two bucks fighting, they don’t kill each other they just wear each other out and the strongest survives. Humans are the same way, we are not designed to kill our species. So when you do that, in my case, I got sick I mean over the side of the gun. Interviewer: “And did that happen at the time of the fight or was it the next day?” (57:07) Right the minute I saw that body, and the adrenaline is going and you’re shooting and– Here I am I’m still shooting, see that’s part of it, I puked all over the side of the gun and what not and then daylight came and you see the carnage out there– Now this is field artillery, according to the psychiatrist I talked to that I’m not supposed to see that because I’m artillery, you know. You put guys' intestines in because they got hit by shrapnel so they’re laying there and you put it in, but anyways so Captain Pierpoint came over and asked me if I had hit anything and I said “Yeah, I’m pretty sure I did.” And so you can see the puke on the side of the gun and he says “Well, when you calm down” He said “Clean the gun up, pick up your brass.” You know but he was a– Anyways, that’s where I got my first Bronze Star. Interviewer: “Right, and that was when you– One of the pictures you have shows this big swatch of cloth that someone’s holding up and there’s a bunch of rows, parallel lines, of bullet holes and that was from one of these guys you hit.” Yes. Interviewer: “Can you explain what that was or what the cloth was?” �Jamieson, Jimmy The Viet Cong and NVA, NVA have you know, Viet Cong don’t but they wear like a cumberbund, a sash, and they normally carried two, three days of rice and then this sauce called nuoc cham or something like that and it stinks it’s just fish, ground up fish and it stinks, and then they carry water and then on the back of the cumberbund they have have like a poncho liner, about the same size. That’s something that they wrap up in when they sleep and it’s folded all up and then folded in half and it’s– The cumberbund sash holds it on their back and it comes around. (59:09) Well I had raked this guy with the 50 and literally cut him in half and so when you went out to do the body count, you’re again– Say what you want about body counts, either they’re inflated or deflated, they took a few of us from each gun section and you’d go out and do a body count, and so the guys took this off and then we picked up all the grenades and machine guns and everything that was there and we put it on a couple of big mortar holes and took photographs of it to show what we had captured, and it’s in the 1st Infantry Division yearbook, it’s in there and so, not that I’m making this stuff up but they– I had a couple of the fellas open it up so I could take a picture of it and so that’s kind of the proof that I have and other pictures were confiscated because they could be used for, you know, body counts and you can’t show them so. Interviewer: “Yeah, but you basically have the cloth where you have these lines of bullets because the cloth was folded over on itself and the bullet just went through the fabric multiple times and made that bizarre kind of pattern. Yeah, so that is something that’s not what we associate with artillery units but one thing about Vietnam is different people do different things at different times, and in your case you had a battery that was pretty much on its own out in the field and it came under enemy attack, but the other thing then is one thing the Army did more of then it gets credit for is it adjusted. So now you’ve got some armored cavalry supporting you and they’re providing security and they let you kind of go where you need to go.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you had the cavalry unit with you did the enemy make further attempts to attack you?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Oh sure, they– At one point the Cav guys, now I don’t know where they got this stuff from, but they brought in a twin 40. Interviewer: “Which is?” Off the anti-aircraft, off a ship. Interviewer: “So a 40 millimeter had anti-aircraft cannons that could be repeating fire.” Right and this– It was on a– It was a twin 40 off a ship and they mounted it in an M-48 tankInterviewer: “Chassis.” (1:01:35) Chassis, okay they brought in a quad 50. Interviewer: “So a 50 caliber machine gun, four of them.” Four of the 50 cals and so– Because we were getting hit so much, apparently we had pissed off somebody and so when we get hit they’d open up with those twin 40s and the quad 50s, and it was interesting. At night you never knew what was gonna happen, very seldom did we ge hit during the day so– And the armament that came in to protect us was– And then there’s a thing called a mad minute and we got to go online with the twin 40 and shoot at trees out there and that was just– It was a relaxing time, just before dark you’d do a mad minute. Interviewer: “And that’s when everybody fires at the same time?” Everybody fires whatever you wanna bring up and shoot and then we had a competition between the twin 40 and our 155 howitzer shooting at a tree, a big tree out there in the jungle and you could see when the twin 40s would hit it [shooting noise] but when we hit it, now you got about �Jamieson, Jimmy a seven inch 100 round going through this tree, the tree just literally exploded, I mean– So that kind of shut the guys up on the– “You guys can’t hit that” Oh yeah? Interviewer: “Alright, now what sort of impression did you have of the Special Forces people?” Respect the hell out of them, we didn’t get a chance to talk to them, they were in and gone or they’re in us and gone but they just looked like people you didn’t want to mess with. I mean they were– They were proudly off duty, they were kindest people you ever wanna meet, but when they came into us either from the jungle or– And then going to the jungle, they didn’t associate with us, we had no idea what their mission was, they weren’t there just but a few minutes and if they were there for say an hour or more they were up by the CP, the command post. So as an individual on the gun sections we had no idea what they were doing, we had, you know we had no idea what their mission was. Interviewer: “Now you mentioned at times operating around the rubber plantation, were there rules about what you could do or not do because those were still functioning plantations sometimes?” (1:04:20) They had little white signs, stakes in the ground like that, that said “U.S government do not destroy rubber trees.” Yeah right, you know, okay fine you know. So we’d– The CAB wanted to get into a particular place where they thought they might get ambushed, so they would try to get a tank in there. Well you can’t, you know, get in and then maneuver around and turn the tubes and so on, well a couple of rubber trees were in the way, they had to back up, drop the tube that 90 millimeter, and blow the tree right out of the ground, you know. “There, okay now we’re good.” I mean they didn’t give a real– I mean. Interviewer: “Would the enemy use the plantations as places to recover or have bases in them?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah, you would normally– Rubber trees are, because the ground is kind of cleared and it’s single canopy, and so in our case we can’t be near the rubber trees because you can’t– We gotta be able to back off so we can shoot over them, okay. So the CAB guys would get in by the rubber trees, and then we’re more out in the open. So we could protect anything in the open here but not coming out of the rubber trees so that’s where they were and they would move their tanks and APs around every night, you know, if we’re there for a week on a mission then they would tank here tonight, well they’d be over there or be further in or be back out and APCs would be over here maybe and they were never in the same place twice. Interviewer: “Okay, do they not want the enemy to mark their positions was that the–” Right, right we– One night we got rocketed and a tank probably 40 yards behind us, seven guys got killed, they were sleeping on and around the tank and they took a rocket right in the turret. Never knew it was coming and the turret came off and that was– That’s another time, you know you see flashbacks, but you know just unexpected all of a sudden here’s this big explosion. Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re in Vietnam basically, what end of ‘66 to end of ‘67? Is that–” (1:06:40) Right, just before the Tet I left. Interviewer: “Okay, now was there any kind of rhythm or pattern to the amount of activity? Were there phases? Was there some chunk of that time where it was busier or it was all pretty much the same?” Yeah, let’s see Tet was January 31st, probably around October when the build up started. They were probing the weak spots and pretty much every other night we’d get hit, and they were– Because the supply work– They were coming in and so for the build up for the Tet in January, January 31st was Tet, and I was supposed to leave the field December 9th and we got hit December 8th just after midnight, and we lost three howitzers. I mean they hit us hard, and that’s when I got my second Bronze Star, so they extended me three days. Only choppers in and out �Jamieson, Jimmy was for ammo and water and we were eating MREs–Well they’re not MREs it was K rations then, so– And Captain Palmer was our battery commander then, and he said “If you want out” You know, if you want out “The only way you’re gonna get outta here Jamie is if you’re the gunner on-” Our ammo tracks then was an Amtrak was a track vehicle, so I’ve got pictures of me sitting up there. I’ve got to be a machine gunner on a convoy, I can't take a helicopter outta there so I’m a machine gunner on a 50 on an ammo– Going to get ammo, and that’s how I got out. I was three days late getting home. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you get the Bronze Star for?” (1:08:30) Basically killing people, I mean that’s what they give medals for. Interviewer: “But was it working the artillery piece or was it for working the machine guns?” It was the machine guns on the 50 and the ACM was working the artillery with the towed vehicles. So it wasn’t for valor or anything I didn’t do anything that heroic, I was just doing my job and I kind of initiated– Okay, I shoot first, ask questions later I learned that from the CAB, you know it’s better to– Instead of asking permission to ask for forgiveness. So, what are you gonna do, send me to Vietnam? I’m already here. What are you gonna give me an article 15? At least I’m alive, so that was my whole deal. Interviewer: “So you basically started shooting on your own and it turned out to be a good idea?” Yep, and the company commander, battery commander, would say– You know because I’d start where I could see and then work my way up into the tree for snipers, and then every gun has a field of fire– And I equate this when I teach my hunter safety classes that if you’re hunting with people you have a field of fire, you don’t overlap– You know, so when you lay the gun and you get in a position every– Myself and a couple other guys we’d all talk about “Okay, I’m gonna cover from here to here, and you’re gonna cover overlapping from there to here.” And so if we �Jamieson, Jimmy get hit you’re not gonna be, you know, and then you’re supposed to know where the listening posts are and stuff like that but the battery commander says “Well what happens if we had listening posts out?” I said “Well I had hoped that by the time this ruckus started that you had called them in already.” And with the CAB– What CAB would do is they would send out their LPs and then put claymores out. You did that every night, put claymores out, well then what they would do is after dark they’d call them back in, and what happened is the Viet Cong would go out there and turn the claymores around, so that if you heard a ruckus and you fired the claymore you’d blow yourself up. Well the CAB they’d bring the listening posts back in and then they had infrared, so they could see them out there. So they’d take the tube and they’d get three or four of them lined up and they’d cut loose with that 90 and blow them all, you know that you’re engaged, rules of engagement you know you gotta be fired upon–No, no. Interviewer: “Not out there.” (1:11:30) No, so they just– Interviewer: “Now you mentioned going into Cambodia, do you know that your own unit actually went into Cambodia and did you know that at the time?” We did not know it, Captain Pierpoint might have, but how we found out is that Fire Direction Control, you know they know where they are in order to give you the inflection and quadrant but as being on the gun we did not know that until afterwards. They would tell us, I mean, “Well we’re in Cambodia now.” You know five clicks, ten clicks, half mile, two miles, five miles that’s about as far as we ever got, but see that’s where the Green Beret guys were and Johnson is telling everybody that there's nobody in Cambodia. Yeah, okay. Interviewer: “Now you’ve mentioned here a couple of different battery commanders, a Captain Pierpoint and a Captain Palmer, was there a changeover then while you were with the unit?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah there was in ‘67 they split the batteries up so that when people rotated in and out of the battery that you wouldn’t have a whole battery of young people. So they split us up but apparently when I came there they served a year tour like I did but their tour ended. So then we got a new battery commander, we got a new executive officer, new first sergeant, all that kind of stuff. So Captain Palmer was West Point and– Or Captain Pierpoint was West Point, Captain Palmer was OCS and– Difference, big difference in commanders, battery commanders, Captain Pierpoint is one of those guys where you would like to salute out in the field, he wanted to do the field inspections, he– You know, and field inspection on what I have a mess kit, a couple of canteens, a bayonet, you know backpack– And I don’t have any of that stuff, we didn’t have any trenching tools, we didn’t– We don’t have enough to have an inspection, you know, but what are you gonna lay it out on a sleeping bag? I mean– Interviewer: “Would he actually do this or was it–” (1:13:50) Oh yeah, you know “Clean it” Clean it with what? You know we haven’t had a shower in a week I mean what do– You know that dust and dirt gets in your pistol belt and your canteen cover, you know cleaning rifles, we’re always cleaning our rifles– Oh geez, so– No way to stop that either. Interviewer: “Well it’s not that loud so–” Okay, so anyways they– We’d do an inspection and what I did is the VFW would send me cans– You can edit this out. Interviewer: “Oh yeah.” They would send me cans of Dri-Slide– There, so it’s like a little can of three in one oil and what it is, is liquid graphite. Okay and so it’s got a long needle on it, well they would send me that and I would clean my M-14 with it and when you stood inspection the guy– All we had to clean stuff with is fuel oil. So put your rifle in the fuel oil and you clean it and of course then the flash suppressor would rust and that sort of thing. Well mine didn’t have any rust on it, so I’m standing in inspection and Lieutenant Eckert who was the new– He was ROTC, reserve officer– �Jamieson, Jimmy So he’d look at my rifle and said “Jamie that’s dirty.” and I said “No sir, that's Dri-Slide.” “That’s what?” and I said “Liquid graphite.” And he says “Well you see me after formation.” Now we’re out in the field, so okay he had come down to the gun battery and he says “I wanna see this Dri-Slide.” So I took out this little can, black and white can that says Dri-Slide on it, so he says “Well I’m gonna have to confiscate that.” So okay he takes it, goes up to the CP, you know, and he’s cleaning his side arm with it and stuff, you put it on, wipe it off and it’s just slippery– You can’t wipe it, it just spreads. So here comes Captain Palmer, he says “Lieutenant Eckert said you had this Dri-Slide.” “Well, no sir, he has it.” “Oh, okay.” So unbeknownst to them the VFW sent me a box and there’s six cans in a box, so I’m– You know, our gun section is cleaning it, so now we’re inspection again and all our weapons are all clean, and so Captain Palmer wanted to know if I had more of that, I said “Yeah.” He says “Well that’s not authorized, I’m gonna have to confiscate that.” So now he has a can, Lieutenant Eckert has a can, so I’m passing stuff out so I get another box at mail call. So they wanna know if that’s Dri-Slide, rattle rattle, open it up, yup. He made me give each gun section a can of Dri-Slide, so there went my six cans. So that’s the kind of stuff– You know depending on who– Interviewer: “Okay, well you had said initially Pierpoint was the one that was a stickler for this stuff, but now you’re mentioning Palmer.” (1:17:20) Captain Pierpoint would– If you had a little bit of rust on your bayonet, I mean he would– And we had our own personal knives too that we carried cause I mean it’s pretty hard to throw a bayonet but we could carry our personal knives, boot knives and stuff, some guys had throwing knives. We would practice throwing, here to the curtain we could throw knives, we put a Lucky Strike package up on a target, sliding board, and I got real– Most of us got real good at throwing knives and so– But Captain Pierpoint was, you know, “Polish your boots.” With what? You know, “Wipe the dust off them.” Jungle boots, you’d wear the same boots for so long that your feet would bleed and crack and you very seldom took your boots off, but he was a stickler he wanted, not so much clean uniforms, but boy you better be shaven and you know, if nothing else wash your face. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Now was he good at his job? I mean in terms of actually commanding a battery.” Yeah, he was good at that cause he volunteered us for everything, well then we would get guests and other commanders, you know, and so that’s how he wanted to skip major and go right to lieutenant colonel and so we had to be sharp. I mean, you know blouse your pants, you know don’t roll them up and fold them up, you know. Yeah it was– Interviewer: “So was it a relief to get Captain Palmer instead?” Yes, he ran a tight ship but somehow we got a volleyball net and a volleyball and so we could play volleyball, no baseball, no softball, none of that stuff because we just didn’t have the room for it, but we could put a volleyball net up and play volleyball and we’d have little competitions between the gun sections or if there happened to be another unit like with the CAB guys. Lieutenant Eckert must’ve got that cause he spiked the ball and drove a guy’s two fingers over their knuckles and that guy went to Japan, never heard from him again. So yeah there was a big difference in commanders and an old Apache saying “There’s many roads to the same–” I guess that’s Apache, I don’t know I heard that some place but you can– So he got– Captain Palmer got just as much work and stuff out of us but not the animosity. (1:20:00) I mean if we could’ve saluted Pierpoint in the field we threatened to do it many times because you don’t wear rank, nobody wore rank, and Captain Pierpoint didn’t even like to have a radio man follow him around because that means you’re a person of interest, you know, of command if you have a radio man. So a lot of times he’d leave the radio man back at the CP and he’d just walk around like– But he strutted, he was tall and skinny and you just wanted to throw him a salute, you know, when you’re out in the boonies, you know. Sergeant Morgan would say “Don’t you even think about it.” You know. Interviewer: “Alright, so he fits at least some part of the West Point stereotype at that point.” Yep, yep. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Fortunately they didn’t all.” No because Colonel Gillem, that we both know, he’s a West Point-er and he’s a great guy, I mean he is super. Interviewer: “He’s somebody who learned from the people around him and understood when he came in he didn’t know anything.” Yeah, yeah he was one “Okay I’m the platoon leader but I don’t squat so you continue running the ‘ploon. Interviewer: “Platoon, yep.” And so Captain Palmer was like that, he would let the first sergeant run or the XO if the XO was here before he was, you know. So he would just wander around and Captain Palmer would take his– Well you saw him, he had his t-shirt on and the first sergeant had his blouse on or his jungle shirt on, but you’d never know Captain Palmer was a captain. I mean he was– You know didn’t wear a cover, didn’t wear a hat most of the time. Interviewer: “Okay, say a little bit more about just living conditions in the field, on a day to day basis you’re with the battery, you know not a big thing happening. What’s going on, what are you doing?” (1:21:56) We had– They gave us tents for a while, these little umbrella type tents, you needed sandbags around them. Here again, military not thinking, howitzers have concussion, concussion blows things apart. So the tents didn’t last very long either the mortars would blow them apart, rockets, or a concussion of our guns was always ripping them wouldn’t blow them down but just ripping them, and so they took those away from us and then we ended up living in bomb craters or shell craters. You’d kind of flatten them out and then– We carried PSP or PT–PSP it’s what they build runways out of. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Yeah, steel matting, yeah.” And so we carried that on trucks and what we would do is drive steel fence posts in the ground and laid that stuff on the roof and then put a tarp over it, and then two layers of sandbags and then– We had a cot, and then you put your cot in there, and then that’s where you slept. So now you gotta contend with snakes and scorpions and all that stuff cause it’s a shady spot and you didn’t like taking your boots off cause scorpions would go in your boots and sometimes people would forget to empty them out, but that’s how we lived whenever we were out in the field. One fella didn’t want to do that, he just put two sandbags around him and he got stung by a scorpion on his testicle and so his swelled– I kid you not they were black and this big, and they put him in a chopper and flew him off to Japan, never saw him again don’t know if he lived or died, but yeah if you’re not looking out for Viet Cong you’re looking out for bamboo vipers or we call them a two step, scorpions, snakes, cobras– King cobras, cobras you’d try to capture and then the medic would milk them and then use that for snake venom the HID sent it to the hospital on a helicopter and they’d make snake venom out of it– Or, you know. Interviewer: “Anti-venom, yeah the serum. Let’s see, now were there rats out in the field?” (1:24:24) Not with us, we weren’t in one place long enough for the rats to find out we were there. Here again we talked to folks that are in a base camp where there’s rats in the guard stations and conex buildings and all that kind of– No, we never encountered rats, that was– Interviewer: “Alright, and what were you eating?” If we were long enough in a place they would bring a mess hall out, so we did eat pretty good. A lot of times they would fly us out meals in those thermal– Interviewer: “Yeah marmite cans.” �Jamieson, Jimmy Marmite cans and so– Or if it’s monsoon season they had chinooks or huey’s would fly out food for us and if we’re only gonna be in a place a day, day and a half, then we would eat the K rations and stuff like that so– Or if you’re on convoy you ate K rations. Interviewer: “Alright, and then where did you get your fresh water from?” They would fly it out, you’d get a lister bag or a water trailer, they’d bring it out in a water trailer, a 200 gallon trailer, you know, it’s a trailer and it looked like a sprinkler sometimes. So you’re finding sticks to poke in the holes so the water doesn’t, you know, sniper shooting up at them as you’re bringing it in– Awe geez, sorry about that guys– [shuffling] (1:25:55) So, anyways. Interviewer: “Okay so we were talking about the– People would shoot up the water containers and so forth, and you hear stories about how bad the water tasted, would you put things in it to make it taste better?” (1:27:05) Yeah, iodine tablets, this is another thing where if you’re talking to a psychiatrist and you’re trying to get your PTSD and all this other kind of stuff is that sometimes you’d come to a stream and you’d think it’s fresh water so you’d put your canteen in there and put in iodine tablets and drink it, well unbeknownst to the medics and the doctors or a lot of people that Agent Orange had been sprayed, and it’s in the water so you’re drinking Agent Orange now okay. It’s just not only in the trees but it’s also in the water, or if you come to a pond and clear the– And get some fresh water. I had prostate cancer at the age of 56, which is real young for prostate cancer, and they took 12 biopsies they were positive and the government admitted that it was from Agent Orange and we were in Agent Orange, I mean they sprayed that whole area where we were in several times so– But they never thought about the water apparently, you can drink that stuff let alone just being on the foliage so– Interviewer: “But then when you got the stuff out of the water tanks or the bags and things like that, did that have a bad taste to it?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah it tasted– Sometimes they put it in a lister bag and brought it out and it tasted like canvas, you know like drinking out of a garden hose, don’t know where they got their potable water from, who knows what chemicals they put in it. Some of the problems we had too is that the indigenous people would sell ice, we could buy ice okay, so we had no ice so we would get cokes or pops and you’d lay it on that ice and spin it. Well what you’d do is you'd take your canteen cup and knock off a chunk of ice and put it in your canteen cup and pour coke over it so you drink it. Well, here again unbeknownst to us they had put glass in that ice, so now you’re drinking it and you’re chewing on that ice, crunch, crunch, crunch “Oh God.” you know you don’t understand it, well now you’re eating glass again, so it got to the point where you could buy ice but don’t– Just put your can on in and spin it to get it cool– You never get it cold but you get it cool, and drink your pop. So that’s– I mean they was always trying to poison you somehow, you know, and there’s razor blades and booby traps and– Interviewer: “Okay, now did you spend any time out of the field?” (1:29:48) Geez, I say in the field for 11 and half months because I went to Hawaii for R&R for a week, and then you get to– If we’re in sympathetic towards us town where you could get a half a day pass, where you’d jump on a chopper and they take you in, drop you off and then at dusk you had to get back on the chopper because at night that town belonged to the Viet Cong. So you could do that once and a while and that’s the only time that I ever– If you went to a base camp like on an ammo run, they would put ammo guys on your gun and then you would go in on an ammo truck and you had a list for the guys, you wanted stamps, writing paper, if you could get batteries for your radio, or shaving, whatever you had a big list and so here again I got in trouble there for steel pot, black vest, personal sidearm, my pants were rolled up, black vest on. I mean just– In a base camp you don’t carry weapons and, you know, that kind of stuff. So I was smoking a cigar, rifle slung on my right shoulder, and me and another fella, Larry Martin walking into the PX, and a warrant officer and a lieutenant came walking by us and they probably went eight, ten feet and they stopped and yelled at us “Hey trooper, don’t you know how to salute!” So we turned around and I saluted with my left hand with a cigar in my mouth, that’s a no-no, you know, and of course there’s no rank, no names, no nothing on your– and “What are you doing with those arms?” And blah blah I mean they just gave us a rough day and we weren’t even standing at �Jamieson, Jimmy attention and so they wanted to know what unit we were with, and he says “Oh, you those guys up north?” “Yes sir.” “Ah, get out of here.” Apparently our reputation preceded us, they know– So that was, I thought “Oh boy, here we go a bunch of snobs, rear echelon people you know. They might have been pilots for all I know. Interviewer: “Pilots probably wouldn’t have done that.” No, one was a warrant officer and one was a lieutenant so– But because I got a cigar in my mouth– So, but you know I was probably older than they were, I turned 21 in Vietnam so they called me Pappy. Interviewer: “Right, now one of the other stereotypes about Vietnam is issues with race and so forth, I mean what was the ethnic mix of your battery? Did you have black guys there or Spanish?” (1:32:46) Yeah, Guadalupe Tobias was– He was in our gun battery and him and I got along poking fun at each other all the time. Washington, George, Alexander, he had about five president’s names after his last name was Washington and we made fun of him. I got a picture of him where if he wasn’t smiling you wouldn’t see him, it was a black and white picture and– George Washington. We had a good time, we had a lot of– We had quite a few blacks, Hispanics in our outfit and we had a couple blacks in our gun battery and we had a ball, and here again I– Here again it’s trust, you know, and we associate with them they didn’t do their black thing, white thing I mean it was– You know like on full metal– Not so much on full metal jacket. Interviewer: “But it is you know again it’s the stereotype or the assumption, and there were times and places where there were racial issues but usually in base camps or rear areas and more often later in the war than when you were there.” Yeah, maybe in the 70’s when they were dialing down but, no we didn’t see any of that even with the Cav guys. No one even really hardly smoked cause you didn’t have cigarettes a lot, when you did get a care package I didn’t smoke I like to chew on a cigar– Well I had a pipe but �Jamieson, Jimmy that got blown up, my uncle Bill sent me a pipe and that got blown up and my writing material– Everything, my radio, everything got blown up. Yeah that was the other thing if you had a record player or a transistor radio, if it lasted a month cause of the concussions of the gun would blow the speakers all apart, you know. So it was just pretty quiet out there. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you get hurt yourself?” I broke my shoulder, I fell in a ditch and broke my right shoulder unbeknownst to me, I didn’t know it was broke they just tied it to my– And put me on light duty until I can move it but I found out it was broke when they did– I had elbow surgery on it a few years back. I had bone on bone on this side and it was because this didn’t heal but they showed me right on the x-ray where I broke it and they had to grind all the scar tissue off. He said “Oh you must have broke this years ago.” And I said “Well it had to been in Vietnam.” So– But that’s minor stuff, you know. Interviewer: “Yeah, and then did your ears get affected?” (1:35:35) I got caught under the muzzle of the 155, the self propelled, in a fire mission and it blew my eardrums out and here again it knocked– It ripped the shirts– Myself and another guy, actually it was Larry Martin, we were getting ammo and running it– Because we were shooting over the back of the gun, so turn tubes around and shooting over the back of the gun, and so the ammo was there. So we’d run around, grab it and then throw it in the door and then run around to the front of the gun and “Ammo! Ammo!” So we’d run around and we got caught, boom! Interviewer: “So somebody pulled the lanyard at the wrong time.” Well it was the right time for them and wrong time for us. We got caught and the tube was almost perfectly flat, so instead of being up like this the tube was like this, of course we’re maybe four feet from the end of the gun and that muzzle blast goes this way but it also goes like that, and it just ripped– It’s like hitting yourself in the back as hard as you can and it just ripped our shirt and it just basically knocked us out and they drug us out of there and medic came over �Jamieson, Jimmy and wiped the blood off. So, you know it’s like you I could sit there and watch and I could see your mouth move but I couldn’t hear anything until it grew back so it’s… Interviewer: “Okay, now as you got towards the end of your tours you got short, did your– Either your duties change or your own attitude change at all?” You just get more conscious, you try to do things that won’t get you hurt. In our unit they did not send you out of the field, some units if you had 30 days left they sent you back, our unit you went full bore until– Like I told you I was supposed to leave December 9th, December the 8th we got hit and it didn’t matter, you know, you ain’t going anywhere until it’s your time. So nothing changed that was just day after day after day, but consciously yourself you start thinking “Okay now.” You’re just more and more– Instead of doing it automatically you have more of a tendency to stop and think about it. “Okay now, what happens if–” You know, “Okay it’s getting dark– Okay well, oh boy where’s the most likely spot–” Usually you just wait for it to happen, so now you think “Well, okay last night we got hit from over there and they won’t do that again.” You know, you’re just– You’re overly conscious and sometimes that’s not good either because then you’re not thinking about– Interviewer: “Or you’re thinking too much.” (1:38:30) Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay now how much contact did you have with people back home while you were in Vietnam?” Just letters, I went to Hawaii for R&R and I called my– I had gotten, like a lot of guys, I got a dear John while I was there and so I went with this other girl in highschool I ended up– We ended up getting married– My high school sweetheart, she just called me, and so I called her from Hawaii instead of my ex-girlfriend and we chit chatted but then we started writing letters and– But other than that I had no contact, I couldn’t call home like the folks can now. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Yeah, well did your parents send you things?” Yes, mom course the baked goods but Kool-aid and Jiffy Pop popcorn were the big things. I would get Jiffy Pop popcorn and you take some C-4 and throw it in a cup, canteen cup or if you could get a can, and pop the Jiffy Pop. Okay well the XO came down and he says, you know “What are you doing?” And I said “Popping popcorn.” “Well don’t you know we’re on light restriction, noise restriction, you know they can smell that popcorn.” I says “Yeah.” He says “Well, you know you’re giving our position away.” and I said “LT” I says “Six howitzers, four tanks, four or five armored personnel carriers, all this vehicles here. You don’t think they know we’re here?” I mean, you know, all these– This popcorn is gonna make squat difference. “Ah, give me some of that.” So he takes a handful and walks away, but mom was sending me six Jiffy Pop popcorns in a box, so I’d give one to the CO and so I could get away with being really mouthy because you know– And Kool-aid the guys liked Kool-aid we would put it in our water. Interviewer: “Yeah that kind of thing. Alright, are there other particular memories or impressions from the Vietnam tour that you haven’t brought into the story here yet that you want to add?” (1:41:05) Other than the fact that the camaraderie was great, certain officers were like enlisted folks, I had a lot of good times there, a lot of fun, sometime you’re scared crap outta ya but– To say I was glad I did it, yeah I would do it again if you know. I feel sorry for the folks that are in Afghanistan, who volunteered to go there and don’t have the respect of the people that are there, like we didn’t have respect in Vietnam, but rules of engagement are different there, we had rules of engagement that we didn’t necessarily abide by all the time but we wouldn’t get in trouble like they would now. It’s more of a political scuffle and I call it a scuffle because it’s not a war, we didn’t declare war since World War II. I talked to the Vietnam folks and some of the state representatives that I have talked through LZ Michigan and stuff, that I have talked with ask them why we do not declare war and I asked this because does it change the benefits, if you declare war on somebody would it change the benefits that the service men get even though they call it a conflict, and it’s a war basically but it’s not a war war. So what’s the change in benefits �Jamieson, Jimmy maybe and is that political and stuff like that, so it’s– And then of course they way you’re treated when you get back, they put me in the riots in ‘68 when I got back– Interviewer: “Yeah, well we’ll get to that, I’ve been trying to sort of close out– There’s a part where you’re actually in Vietnam and you mentioned to get out of the field you basically had to go out in a convoy rather than a helicopter. Now once you’re out of the field how do they get you back home?” I was in a base camp at Dĩ An and then– Now it’s spit and polish time, so you’ve gotta be shaved, hair cut, clean pressed clothes, and you have to make the rounds– If you’re gonna ETS out you’ve gotta go to the chaplain, and I’ve never been to the chaplain but you’ve got to go there, and you have a card, he’s gotta sign it, you gotta go to the PX in case you owe them some money, they gotta sign it. You go to the NCO club and they have to sign off, you gotta go to the doctor and they give you a physical and they signed it, and there is where I run into another problem is that– Of course my eardrums were blown out, that’s not on my record, they flew me in from the field into Lai Khê, pulled a tooth, never put it on my record. So that’s not on my record, so now when I get home I got to go to the dentist, I gotta get a bridge made, well “It’s not on your record.” Well I’m sorry but they put me on a helicopter and Norm Chapin who was a family friend of ours was the adjutant at Lai Khê and so I went in and talked with him cause he’s a friend of my dads and blah blah blah blah blah, but they pulled my tooth and I got back to the helicopter and the blades were still going around it so that’s how long it took. (1:44:53) Give me a shot, pulled the tooth and I really didn’t get numb yet until I got to the field so I mean, you know record keeping was terrible. Interviewer: “Alright, but anyway so you’re making the– You’re at Dĩ An the division’s main base and you’re processed? Okay, and then what happens after that?” You have to turn in your equipment, this is another farce, they have a checklist just about canteen, helmet, helmet liner, weapons, poncho liner, and sleeping bag, and cot, and all this stuff– I– Cot, hell that’s out in the field yeah, my sleeping bag that’s out in the field yeah, “Well where is it?” Well it’s out in the field! Call the battery commander, have him ship it, call the first �Jamieson, Jimmy sergeant you know. “Well you, you gotta turn this stuff in.” Bayonet, bayonet sheet, I mean are you kidding me, you know then I had an M-16 supposedly “Well, where’s your rifle?” “Combat loss.” “What do you mean combat loss?” “Well it got blown up.” Or “It got thrown in the swamp.” “Well what’d you use?” “Well I had a 12 gauge shotgun.” “Where’s that?” “Well it’s in the field I left it with the gun section, you know it stays with the gun section.” The battery commander didn’t do any paperwork, you know it’s combat loss it’s wrote off as a combat loss, well it doesn’t follow you, you know so. Interviewer: “Well did they eventually let you go?” Oh yeah, they “Well alright.” So they just sing it, you know it’s not like I’m the first one that said that I mean– But they’ve got it– You know it’s some sergeant and he’s gotta give you a wrap, the BS, you know make it look like he’s doing his job and, you know everybody’s got their job but don’t take it out on us if you’ve never been to the field. I mean just like cleaning kits, one in five people get a cleaning kit with an M-16, well rear echelon people all have cleaning kits but the people in the field that need them don’t. That’s how so many guys get killed trying to fix the jams in their rifles cause they don’t have a cleaning kit. So– But anyways they basically got it out, or got me out, I flew out on another C-141 troop transport, five of them flew in they unloaded the whole company of 101 Airborne, the commander that was a colonel a full bird, a light colonel, and a major, and I don’t know what– Those were the officers that flew the plane, they were turning around and going back. (1:47:35) So they put 14 of us on this C-141 and we’re flying home okay. Big airplane, completely empty, and we sat on web seats that folded down okay, that’s where you slept too. So we’re going to San Bernardino is where we’re flying into. So we’re flying in– Well we stopped at Okinawa to refuel, landed, refueled, go to take off, landing gear doesn’t lock up, lights don’t come on. So we do a fly by, “Yeah your gears up.” So they put them down, bring them back up, doesn’t look like they’re– “Well you better land, we'll check it out.” Okay, so they just took 8000 pounds of fuel or whatever, 8000 gallons, we’re spraying it over the ocean, foaming the runway in case the landing gear doesn’t lock. Oh my god, a year and three days in Vietnam and I’m gonna die in Okinawa, so we’re sitting in our seats and we’re strapped in and– You know, and we land, foam all over everything, you know. “Well it’s gonna be a while for us to check it out.” So they put us up in a hotel in Okinawa, my �Jamieson, Jimmy first bath in a year and of course they’re little baths but oh my God that felt so good, hot water and you know and the red clay just comes out of you– It looks like you’re bleeding the water has a tinge of red to it. Get back on the plane, it was a couple on sensor, one on the landing gear and then the light, a couple faulty switches and stuff. So we take off, we land at San Bernardino, what the hell am I doing in San Bernardino and I gotta be way up here in California. So Red Cross gets me a flight, free, up to Travis Air Force Base so now I’m held up there 12 hours. Why? Well this is December, it’s seven below in Michigan, all I have on are my summer khakis, no winter clothes at all. So they take all that crap and they give me all brand new dress greens, I had no dress greens I had, you know, whole new shoes cause mine were moldy and everything. So they tailor fit your dress greens and then I had to go to debriefing on what I can and can’t talk about, how to talk at the table, you know it’s not “Pass the effin’ butter” So I’m going through a debriefing, acclimating back into social life and getting all new clothes and everything and so– And now I’ve caught a cold, I’ve got this cold, okay so now I get on my– And your leave doesn’t start until you get home. So I’m already 12 hours or more late, I was extended three days, that put me three days behind, now I’m late leaving Travis. (1:51:00) So okay now I’m on this flight and I’m flying home, Grand Rapids is snowed in, so they send us up to Muskegon. Well they had called my folks to tell them that our flight was being delayed, okay I’m gonna take a bus or a taxi– Bus from Muskegon. So okay, well we get up to Muskegon, and the storm quit in Grand Rapids so they turn around fly us back to Grand Rapids. So now we land in Grand Rapids and I got a call home “Hey Pops, I’m home.” “Well where’s that?” “Well I’m at the airport.” So you know back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, so I was three or four days late getting home and what a fiasco that was. I mean just one problem after another. Interviewer: “Okay, and now you’re not done with your enlistment yet either.” Oh no. Interviewer: “Okay so you get leave home, how long were you sick you had your cold?” I had a cold I could not– My eyes were watering so bad but I bought some contacts– �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Cold medicine yeah.” I took a couple– Now they’re 12 hour right, so I pop a couple of them and my eyes finally dried up. Well I happened to be sitting next to a fella that owned the Ford tractor place in Grandville, Michigan, they sold Ford tractors and he happened to know my dad because my dad’s from Grandville the Jamieson homestead is there and everything. I had to be sitting right next to him and we got to talking and I couldn’t buy a drink. I mean they were buying me drinks I got– Couse I’m in uniform, and I– I wouldn’t say I was drunk but with the cold I wasn’t feeling any pain when I got home and so that was– That made it a nice flight. You know I think– You know everybody says that, you know, you’re treated like crap while on the airplane and in the airport, I was treated pretty good, people were buying– Of course there’s a lot of service men in there but people were buying me a drink and stuff, thought “Hell this ain’t gonna be bad.” Until I got home, even in the Grand Rapids area here it was not good but– So I’m home on leave for 30 days and I already know where I’m going, I’m going to Fort Meade, Maryland 6th Armored Cav, so that’s after my leave. We had a good time at home I got re-hooked up again with my girlfriend and bought a snowmobile, and I had them paint “Cong Chaser” on it, I don’t know if you wanna get into this or not– Interviewer: “Oh yeah.” (1:53:43) So I don’t know if you know of Michigan Out of Doors with Mort Neff, Bruce Grant on the radio, well those are friends of my dad’s they’re all from Grandville, and so Roger Perrin owned a snowmobile dealership in Grandville, Perrin’s Marina, my dad knew him. So I worked for him the 30 days I was home just putting snowmobiles together, you know a couple hours here a couple hours– It wasn’t never a job he would pay me spending money. So on Sundays Bruce Grant would come to Roger Perrin’s and bring a bottle and my dad would have coffee, and well I bought a snowmobile and had them paint “Cong Chaser” on it, then I had it hopped up a little bit. So Roger would use my snowmobile as a demo and people thinking the snowmobile they buy like this is gonna be as fast as mine was, well it wasn’t of course. So anyway Mort Neff had a safari between Croton and Hardy Dam in the winter time and he landed in his ski plane and the camera crew got out and they’re taking pictures and well they happen to look at my snowmobile �Jamieson, Jimmy and it says “Cong Chaser” on it, well that was the name of our howitzer. He didn’t know what that meant so I explained to him so I ended up on Michigan Out of Doors– Morton Neff, they were doing a show of the safari. They had hot dogs and snowmobiling and then one of the segments was on my snowmobile. So that– So I got to go on– But yeah, so home was fun. Interviewer: “Okay and now off to Fort Meade.” Off to Fort Meade, I get there at night and that’s fine, they stick me in the 6th Armored Cav, nobody there I got there on a Friday night. Cool, okay so no duties, no nothing. I’m assigned to the gun battery, the howitzer battery, so I got the whole weekend to screw off. Well my cousin Chuck Devries lived in Chevy Chase, so I called him up. So I took a cab over to his house, so I actually spent the weekend with my cousin at Chevy Chase and he took me all around and everything, and then I reported back– I had to sign out, and I reported back in again. Well then on Monday morning then you get assigned where you’re gonna be and what gun battery you’re on– Or gun crew and all that kind of stuff and so I was there for a while. (1:56:18) Well then the 1st Army is there also, and they wanted recruits for the rifle team, so hell I’ll sign up– I’ll try out for it, so there’s like 200 of us trying out for the rifle team, and you have to shoot expert every time you shoot and they needed eight slots filled. So I kept shooting expert, expert, until they wittled us down to eight. So by the end of the day I was on the 1st Army national rifle pistol team, if my battery commander would release me, and he did. So I’d get up in the morning and go to chow and then I’d make the 0-600 formation, you know all present and accounted for, make up my bunk, and my reporting station was the 1st Army national rifle pistol team. So I’d get a ride and I’d spend all day on the rifle team shooting, shooting, shooting, and if you weren’t in a competition then you were an instructor. So the guys on AIT, when they’d have to march to the rifle range and learn how to shoot kadri, that was us. You’d wear the steel– Or the helmet liner that says “Kadri” on it and so– Or “Instructor” and that’s what I did when the rifle team people were the kadri, and so that’s what I did for the time that I was there. I traveled up and down the east coast, shooting rifle competitions. I had two match grade M-14s, instructing on the M-60, M-16, M-14, the thump-gun, demonstration on the 50 we didn’t teach the 50 just the demonstration. So that was fun until the riots started, Martin Luther King had been assassinated in April but it started out as a Vietnam protest and so the 101st Airborne I believe had the �Jamieson, Jimmy Capitol building, 82nd Airborne had the White House, or vice versa I can’t keep them straight, 6th Armored Cav had the surrounding area. Our unit had from Louisiana, and this is on Concord, the main street, Louisiana to Pennsylvania, that’s where I had to patrol, and different guys had different streets and we were all spread out. So for three days we would patrol that in rioting, people were throwing jars of urine at you, bags of feces, you know dog manure, human crap and stuff like that. You would form a V and then you had fixed bayonets and you just marched right into the crows and dispersed them if they would, but they had us– The 6th Armored Cav was in dress greens, now we weren’t Airborne but we were in dress greens with bloused pants, in other words you wore your combat boots with– Like the Airborne would. Black leather gloves, pistol belt, helmet liner, no steel pot helmet liner, and the Cav wore an ascot, like the Cav wore– The regular the 1st and the 4th wore a yellow ascot, ours was red, and so instead of wearing a shirt and a tie you wore your shirt- Khaki shirt under your greens but you wore a red ascot. It’s like a turtleneck thing, and then you wore your pistol belt and two ammo pouches with loaded magazines, we had 80 rounds, and then you wore your bayonet and two canteens of water and that’s what we wore, and so you were spit and polished. (2:00:30) They wanted the people to see that you weren’t a bunch of reserves– There was no national guard, no reserves, so you would– You wore all your medals, and you were dressed to the hilt, I mean. When we pulled up into the group we were on the back of a deuce and a half with a canvas off, and they’d have us stand up and then left and right detail, you know left turn, right turn whatever. So they’d have us take out our bayonets and that was, you know “On my command fix bayonets.” So you’d fix bayonet, you’d take your bayonet out and then you would mount it and they’d say “Fix bayonets!” You’d have like 20 some guys on the truck go chhh-kkk and there’s people all around you and they’re looking up at you watching, thinking “Okay now what are these guys gonna do?” “On my command load magazine.” So you’d undo your pouch, take out a loaded magazine and we’d wrap it on our heads to make sure the rounds were all in the back and they’d say “Load magazine!” And then you’d go chh-kk everybody would go chh-kk at the same time “On my command load one round.” So you’d put your hand up and they’d say “Load one round!” Chhkk! People could see that round going into the magazine. So then they’d have us exit the vehicle or the truck, demount they called it cause you’re in a cab, you mount your truck you don’t climb it. So and then we’d form the V and then there’d be guys in here with the thump-guns, with tear gas, and so whether they had us use tear gas or not you had your M-17 protective gas mask, but �Jamieson, Jimmy we would just march into the ground and if they wouldn’t move you’d put the bayonet right here and stand them up right on their tip toes and then if they came down, call an ambulance you know haul people away but, they would disperse and get out of our way but you know we didn’t put up with any bullshit, and that was the first three days. When the looting started- Now the police are with us okay, or actually we’re with them because we had rules that we had to abide by. So when the looting started, then now the police are with us cause Congress declares martial law, or somebody did usually it’s Congress cause they’re running- DC is run by Congress. So now they’re– We don’t need search warrants, so when you see a car loaded with stereos and TVs, or a quarter of a cow sticking out frozen, you’d just point the rifle at them at an intersection, they’d stop, jerk them out, put handcuffs on them. They’d put them in a paddy wagon that had 10 or 12 people, hands over the bar, they’d drive away, empty them out then come back. (2:03:30) So we did that for eight days, and throwing tear gas, we had CS1 riot teargas grenades. We’d go through buildings cause they’re block-long apartment buildings and you would just start at one end, pull the pin and throw it– Cause they’re fiberglass, they would break, and then people were putting towels under the cracks of the doors, and we got credited for saving a baby. The tear gas came through it, and CS1 riot it’s a tear gas but it also cause nausea and vomiting and dry heaves, and now your stomach ruptures now you’re vomiting up blood, I mean it could kill you. So they handed this baby out and one of our sergeants laid the baby on the hood of the car and started doing CPR and supposedly saves this baby life and of course he gets accolades mades for it, but we didn’t put up with that crap I mean– We were in Arlington Cemetery in tents for 11 days and the rioting and yeah it was not fun, I mean here you go through a year of Vietnam and this is how you’re treated? What a rude awakening that is and you get– This is part of my PTSD I can’t stand guys with ponytails, it just drives me absolutely nuts, and it’s taken me a long time to get over that and Asians– It’s just the flower power people, the hippies, it just– Interviewer: “You associate that with that experience.” With the riots, yup. It’s just– Yeah I don’t get nightmares over that it just pisses me off, it upsets me. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Alright, now before that happened were you giving any thought to staying in the Army?” Yeah, in the meantime I had taken an OCS test, three hours and something long, and I passed it. So you’ve got like 30 days or whatever to make up your mind if you wanna enlist, so my wife now her and I were talking, we weren’t engaged or anything but yeah talking marriage and stuff like that and she says “Well if we’re ever thinking about marriage–” She says “You and Vietnam was too hard, you barely made it through the first year–” And I told her I was guaranteed one more year because once you become an officer you gotta serve three more years, I was guaranteed one more year in Vietnam, maybe two and she says “You barely made it through the first one.” She says “So if you’re thinking about getting the service then there’s no chance of us getting married.” and “Aww geez, what do I, what do I, what do I?” And the thought of still being a school teacher that came into mind, so I elected not to go back into the service, and as it is the girlfriend then we’ve been married 48 years now and so she’s put up with a lot of stuff from me, the counseling and what not. So as it is I ended up with a good job at the– I ended up being an engineer anyways. Interviewer: “Yeah so what kind of job did you get then when you get out?” (2:07:17) I bounced around, I was a mechanic, I was– Worked in the septic tank business with my cousin, the Plummer’s Septic Tank Service. Millionaire now, the boys are, but anyway I bounced around being a truck mechanic and a car mechanic and finally got a job with the phone company in 1974 and I worked as a top craft splicer and then a crew leader, it’s called a technical leader, I did that for five years and then they promoted me to an engineer. I was still taking classes, I never did get a degree but they would hire engineers out of college and put them with me for two or three weeks to teach them the ropes and so finally Dorothy Debane the fourth level over in engineering she said “We just might as well make you an engineer.” So even without a degree– And then they needed an engineer in Marquette in the Upper Peninsula, so– This is back in ‘93, and my wife said “Yeah, sure we’ll go to Marquette.” So I was up there for eight years and then I came back down here, and I was an engineer and then a training development manager, I hired 25 splicers they were starting up a new construction department and I hired two first level managers �Jamieson, Jimmy and got them trained and equipped. Went back to being an engineer and then I ended up being an air pressure manager and I says “I’ll do it for two years, then I’m gonna retire.” So I retired at age 57, after I got over my prostate cancer I said “Life’s too short.” I put my 30 years in and so I retired at 57. Interviewer: “Okay, but you’re still a busy man. What are you doing now?” I’m volunteering for LZ Michigan, that’s got me quite busy, I do a lot with schools; my grandson is going into 9th grade but I was his daycare person when he was a year and a half old, he was high end autistic I had to take him to Mary Free Bed five days a week for two hours for oral, motor skills, and speech therapy. So him and I are, I mean we’re really close and that was my wife calling to say that Travis won’t be over till 4:30, him and I are gonna make a platform for a shed, but he’s a big boy, big kid, 15, he’s in what they call Peaks Class so he’s been taking– In the 8th grade he took 9th grade classes and now he’s in 9th grade he’s taking 10th grade classes. He was in the Grand Rapids Youth Symphony, he’s in orchestra, and symphony, and jazz band at Kentwood. He’s hoping to get a scholarship, he plays the stand up bass, electric bass, and guitar. So I do a lot of volunteer work at school, I go on field trips, I help the orchestra, I also teach gun safety, hunter safety for the DNR, I’ve done that for 38 years. So I do instructional shooting, rifle shooting, I’ve worked with some SWAT folks on their rifle shooting and people they just want to learn to shoot their rifles better so I am with a gun club here in town. I have a fifth wheeler at Selkirk Lake so I fish, I hunt all the time, I go out west, I shoot prairie dogs, the wife and I both ride motorcycles, she rides a three wheeler and I ride a motorcycle so I’m not home much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JamiesonJ2143V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jamieson, Jimmy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07 Title A name given to the resource Jamieson, Jimmy (Interview transcript and video), 2025 Description An account of the resource Jimmy Jamieson was born in Newport News, Virginia in 1946. He graduated high school in 1965 and began college classes. He was drafted in the Army in February of 1966 but was allowed to finish the semester before being sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky in July. Shortly after, he was moved to Fort Campbell, Kentucky for basic training, where he was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. After basic, he was sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for artillery training and ranger training. He then had 30 days of leave before flying out of Travis Air Force Base to Vietnam. The plane stopped in Guam for a couple hours to refuel, and then landed in Pleiku, Vietnam. Originally assigned to field artillery for the 75th Ranger Battalion, he was instead flown to Camp Alpha near Saigon and assigned to the 8th Battalion, 6th Artillery in Vietnam, 1st Infantry Division. Nearly every night he had fire missions known as harassment and interdiction, where they fired at suspected Viet Cong or North Vietnamese Army at random times. After he joined the unit, they moved to Quan Loi Base Camp. There, his main job was to keep the supply line on track, but he also provided the Special Forces with gun support. Being close to the Cambodian border, Jamieson’s unit would sometimes cross into Cambodia. While on deployment, Jamieson visited Hawaii for a week for R&R. In late 1967, he finished his deployment and was processed at Dĩ An, the division’s main base camp, before being flown back to the U.S., stopping in Okinawa to refuel. He arrived in San Bernardino and took another flight to Travis Air Force Base, then another flight to Grand Rapids. After 30 days of leave, he went to Fort Meade, Maryland. Originally assigned to gun battery for the 6th Armored Cavalry Regiment, Jamieson took a shooting test and landed a spot on the 1st Army National Rifle Pistol Team. During the Vietnam protests, his unit patrolled the area surrounding the White House and Capitol. At the end of his service, he decided not to enlist. Instead, he got married and worked several odd jobs before becoming an engineer. He also worked as a training development manager and an air pressure manager. After he retired, he took up volunteer work for LZ Michigan and his son’s high school as well as teaching gun safety for the DNR. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2aec4f5e32e7bcadc47001017a0dcfd5.m4v 3116963fbf4da33107730a6e606a9175 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/37a065b42dc6b63837e5e8e38ae6177b.pdf 90f4648df22427e0c74c8983d518b99b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Dwight Jamison Korean War 26 minutes 54 seconds (00:00:02) Early Life -Born in Big Rapids, Michigan on February 15, 1928 -Brother enlisted in the Army Air Force in 1943 -Served in India during World War II -Base with aircraft that brought supplies into China (00:01:15) Enlisting in the Army -Interested in joining the military since youth -Served in the Michigan National Guard -Father served in the National Guard in the 1920s -Wanted to enlist before he turned 18 years old, but father forbade it -Enlisted in the Army -Father's National Guard service prompted him to enlist in the Army -Lived across from the recruiting center in Big Rapids -Enlisted on his 18th birthday -Two weeks after enlisting he went to Detroit to take his physical exam -Went to Detroit with his friend who had also enlisted -Dwight passed the exam, but his friend failed it (00:03:16) Basic Training -Sent to Camp Polk, Louisiana for basic training -Watery and swampy location -Basic training lasted eight weeks -Time in the National Guard prepared him for basic training -Went on a bivouac -Remembers being woken up at night by the drill instructors -Raining and ordered to march 20 miles through swamp -Had to hold rifle over his head -Saw a five foot long water moccasin (00:05:04) Stationed in Japan -Deployed to Japan -Served in southern Japan at an Army hospital during the Korean War -Worked in supply -Brought wounded soldiers from the air strip to the hospital -Would rather have been fighting in Korea -Remembers bringing in one soldier that was severely wounded -New nurse put a wound tag on the soldier -He asked if it would hurt and she started crying -Had been hit by an artillery shell -Hit in the ribs, arm was hanging by a strand of muscle -Worked on a hospital train three times -Going between south Japan and Tokyo -Had a Turkish soldier in his train car -Couldn't speak English and played a harmonica �-Only song he know how to play was the Turkish national anthem -Cared for the wounded in his car -None of them were too severely wounded -Remembers a B-29 bomber en route to Guam after a bombing run over Korea -Severely damaged, lost its landing gear, and had wounded aboard -Had to land without its landing gear -Navigator, tail gunner, and one other crewman was wounded -Bomb exploded under the navigator and injured his feet -Stripped the wounded and collected their personal belongings for storage -Navigator had a beautiful pair of boots -Cleaned the boots for the airman and held onto them -Airman told Dwight he got the boots in Monaco (00:14:32) Japanese Civilians -In Japan he met an older Japanese man who worked as a mechanic -Helped repair Dwight's jeep -Had two daughters -Often spent evenings with him and ate dinner together (00:15:48) Christmas in Japan -Remembers one Christmas all of the cooks in his unit were gifted bottles of rum -Indulged with them to celebrate the holiday -Decided that he preferred sake over rum (00:16:39) Friendship & Exploration of Japan -Is still in touch with a friend he made in the Army -Friend's parents lived in Tokyo -Explored the parks and monuments in Tokyo -Saw the place where many Japanese had committed seppuku (ritual suicide) (00:18:10) Downtime in Japan -During one winter he went skiing in northern Japan -In the summer the Japanese grew crops in the mountains -Ran into cornstalks buried under the snow -Went head over heels and a ski hit him in the back of the head (00:19:57) Rank -Made the rank of corporal before the Korean War (prior to June 1950) -Tried to get promoted to staff sergeant, but there was no need for another sergeant at the time (00:20:22) Contact with Family -Kept in touch with his family while he was in Japan (00:20:35) Hospital Duty in Korea -Sent to an area near Pusan, Korea -Established a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (MASH) field hospital (00:21:23) Coming Home & Life after the War -He was back in the United States by the time the war ended in 1953 -Glad it ended -American people didn't pay much attention to the returning veterans though -At Camp Stoneman, California -Had flown back to the United States from Japan -Flight took 36 hours -Stopped at Wake Island and Honolulu, Hawaii -Arrived at Camp Stoneman early in the morning -Didn't recognize the towers on the houses �-Didn't know what TV antennas were -Hadn't been in the United States for four and a half years -Left the United States in 1946 and got back in 1951 -Visited the nearby town of Pittsburg, California to get a meal -Got heckled by a group of locals for being in the Army -Lost faith in the American people -Made him want to return to Japan -Took a train across the country back to Michigan -Trip took two and a half days -Left his experiences in the Army behind him -Had trouble finding a job -Went back to Big Rapids, Michigan Interview ends abruptly � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JamisonD1835V Title A name given to the resource Jamison, Dwight Carson (Interview outline and video), 2015 Description An account of the resource Dwight Jamison was born in Big Rapids, Michigan on February 15, 1928. He served in the Michigan National Guard as a teenager and enlisted in the Army in 1946. He received his basic training at Camp Polk, Louisiana and after that was deployed to Japan. He served at a hospital in Japan during the Korean War, helping with supplies and bringing wounded soldiers from a nearby airstrip to the hospital for treatment. He was also sent to an area near Pusan, Korea to help establish a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital. In 1951 he returned to the United States after four and a half years in Japan and served at Camp Stoneman, California. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jamison, Dwight Carson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hansen, Mia (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0a972603bdf9a82c6fca2f4addf3a6c3.mp4 db9d0719272022b08cbf1b8e8eff3cb6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d80d4d084bbfc788813ad79aaa5dd3e6.pdf 2c0bd0885f52f2cb6b35179a78381c8a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Name of Interviewee: Edwin Jamros Name of War: World War II Interview Length (01:58:00) Pre-Enlistment  Born on May 1st, 1918 in Detroit, MI (0:50)  Enlisted in the Coast Guard on October 1st, 1940 (2:20)  Selected the Coast Guard because he knew we would go to war, and the lines were too long in the Army and too long of an enlistment for the Navy and Marines (3:00)  Lived in Brighton, MI at the time (3:40)  Farmed with his parents (1:20:40) Training  Went to Ellis Island, NYC for Basic (4:00)  Learned how to march, handle firearms and military code of ethics over 2-3 months  Assigned garbage detail during this time, which took 30 minutes each meal (5:15)  Drill instructors were First Class Boatswain’s Mate (5:30)  Had a hard time keeping in step with everybody else (5:45) Enlistment  Electrician’s Mate, First Class (2:00)  Mainly served in the European Theater, but was in on some of Africa, as well (6:30)  Also made a trip to Australia (6:50)  Served in the Armory at Ellis Island after Basic Training (7:40)  Did guard duty at the Captain of the Port’s office (7:55)  Pulled 12-8am duty sometimes, had to crack a few heads together (10:00)  Married on May 23, 1941, and wife came to New York to visit him in the fall, but he was deployed the same day (12:00)  Wife went back home to Detroit (13:00)  Was assigned as an Apprentice Electrician on the USS Joseph A Dickman (13:40)  Africa o Initially sailed for Nova Scotia and took on 18,000 British soldiers headed to Cape Town, South Africa (15:40) o Treated royally in Cape Town, and was on shore patrol during the first night (16:45) o Went to Bombay, India after Cape Town (18:30) o Three fastest ships took the troops to Singapore, but surrendered two days later because the Japanese had already taken the land (19:00) o Stayed two weeks in Bombay (19:20) o Learned many things about British rule in India (21:00) o Stopped back in Cape Town to pick up a load of graphite (23:15) �   o On the way home, stopped in Brazil for fuel during Carnival (23:30) o Stayed in Brazil for 2-3 days before coming back to New York (24:40) o Arrived home in January, had liberty every third day (25:30) o Met General Patton while conducting maneuvers off South Carolina (28:00) Australia o Took troops from New York to Panama (29:15) o Ship in front of his hit a rogue mine and disabled it (29:45) o Dropped new troops off in Panama, picked up veteran troops and brought them to Brisbane, Australia (30:00) o Had 320-350 sailors on the ship, but then it moved up to 5,000 people when troops were on board (32:10) o Had a three day party after they crossed the Equator (32:45) o Used a dunk tank for men that had never crossed the Equator before (35:10) o Stayed at port in Brisbane for 1 week (35:40) o Dropped off sailors and barges in New Caledonia (36:00) o Headed back to the Isthmus, and liberty on Balboa for three days (39:00) o Went back for repairs to Norfolk, VA, and he was sent to the Brooklyn Navy Yards to go to Motion Picture School (39:45) o Lived with his wife in a flat in Brooklyn (40:30) o Went to school because he was a projectionist on board his ship (41:00) o After war broke out, projectionist pay was taken away (42:00) Return to Africa o Rejoined the Dickman after repairs were finished (43:00) o Heard before he got his orders that his ship was going to North Africa to invade (45:15) o Was part of a massive convoy (45:30) o Invaded at Fedala in North Africa (46:00) o Initially on the outer ring of ships, but eventually moved to the inside ring so they could unload faster (47:15) o During unloading, ships in the convoy were torpedoed at exactly 6 pm (48:00) o After Fedala, they finished unloading at Casablanca (49:45) o Had to do it in the dark because of snipers (51:15) o Went to Mers el-Kebir for more training after that, and then home to Newport News for repairs (51:45) o Ships crew had to chip barnacles off the side and repaint it (53:30) Sicily o Went to Bermuda for supplies, but were fired upon by torpedoes before they got there (53:45) o Went home for supplies, but then went to Sicily after that (55:30) o Carried Darby’s Rangers on board his ship (55:45) o Participated in the landing in Sicily (58:00) Tape 2   Always landed troops at night (1:01:00) USS Dickman was bombed, had 23 shrapnel holes when the landing was over (1:03:15) �    Came back stateside after the landing in Sicily, had 10 days off and came home to Detroit (1:04:45) Had to check running lights every time they went stateside, only used in port (1:09:25) Took more troops back to Italy, brought supplies to Naples and landed troops at Salerno (1:06:45) Post-USS Dickman o Left the Mediterranean Sea, took troops to Scotland, preparing for D-Day (1:12:00) o Left the USS Dickman in 1944 and was transferred to the Tamarack out of Manitowoc, WI (1:15:00) o Stayed on the Tamarack for 5 months, entirely on the Great Lakes, as a submarine rescue ship (1:15:30) o Transferred to shore duty in Milwaukee, WI for 5 months (1:17:00) o Was transferred to Fort McHenry in Baltimore, MD to do guard duty just before discharge (1:24:00) o Discharged in Cleveland, OH on May 22, 1945 (1:25:00) o Kept in touch with family before the war by mail and phone calls (1:26:10) o Used V-Mail during the war. Mail was censored, but it was free postage and could only use one side of the sheet (1:27:00) o Most of the time, food was very good (1:29:00) o When there were troops aboard, they played a lot of poker, blackjack or other card games (1:38:30) Post-Enlistment  Adopted a child in December of 1949 (1:40:45)  Had two more boys (1:42:45)  After the Coast Guard, he bought 40 acres in Brighton, MI (1:47:00)  Sold the farm, moved in to Fowlerville, MI (1:47:45)  Moved to Ionia, then to Lansing to become an electrician inspector for the State of Michigan (1:48:25)  Retired in 1980, moved to Texas and Arkansas (1:49:15)  Moved to Potterville in 1992 (1:49:50)  Attended several reunions for the USS Dickman (1:50:30)  Never joined any veteran’s organization because he is a Mason (1:52:35)  Ribbons, medal and photographs shown (1:53:35) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JamrosE Title A name given to the resource Jamros, Edwin Francis (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jamros, Edwin Francis Description An account of the resource Edwin Jamros joined the US Coast Guard in 1940 because he knew the United States was going to war. After going to Ellis Island for basic training, he was assigned to the USS Joseph Dickman as an electrician's apprentice. While on the Dickman, he traveled to Africa, Australia, Italy and Scotland. His ship participated in the invasions of North Africa and Sicily. Edwin was discharged as an Electrician's Mate, First Class on May 22nd, 1945. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erichsen, Wallace J. (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Coast Guard Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-03-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aac8b731d4dc43b0dbd427a14e25df6c.mp4 ed938dca55165e99bc76d3b7210b8371 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/baa25344f77443fa5ffe54e1c8078ad2.pdf d608b165b6e69d084ca9a67b5197a66c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Name of War: World War II Interviewee Name: Don Jandernoa Length of Transcript: (01:45:15) Interviewer: ―Don, I wonder if we could start off with, when and where you were born.‖ I was born in the little town of Pewamo on the 29th of January 1924, a town of about 500 people. My father was a veterinarian and we always wanted to have farms also, so when I was about seven, he bought a farm on the edge of town and that’s where I grew up. 1:35 Interviewer: ―What was your early childhood like? Were you a farm boy so to speak?‖ Oh yes, we had chores from the time we moved to the farm and by the time I was ten or eleven, I was milking cows and running tractors. As a matter of fact, we got my grandpa’s Model T and at the age of eleven I was running that Model T around the farm and at the age of 14, in those days, you could get a full-unrestricted license, of course there weren’t a lot of cars in those days, so it was quite a different thing. (02:30) Interviewer: ―Now you are very tall, were you a tall child? I got most of my height by the time I was 14. I about 6’2 ½‖, I’m shrinking a little bit with old age. (02:42) Interviewer: ―What was your early schooling like?‖ One year in the Catholic school and then it was depression time and they couldn’t afford to keep the school open, so we went to the public school, which was very strict. I remember, for example, when I was a sophomore one of my buddies came out of the principal’s office with blood running down his cheek. We couldn’t get away with things. In those days you got disciplined. The worst thing that could happen was if you got in trouble in school and your parents found out because you got more discipline at home, but that was a different era and physical punishment was not unusual. (03:15) Interviewer: “So just for your grandchildren’s sake, did you end up in the principal’s office at all?‖ One time when I was about in the third grade and I thought I would die. I was told to go upstairs to the principal’s office. I can’t recall the reason anymore, but I survived. Interviewer: ―Your father was a farmer and your mother was a homemaker?‖ Yes, my mother came from Holland at the age of 20 and she spoke English so well that most people didn’t know that she was an immigrant. They met here in Grand Rapids; my father came here to veterinary school and graduated in 1916. The Grand Rapids Veterinary School also was part of a medical school and the five of us [children] are all still alive, all 70-88 and all in good health even though we have fought cancer and heart 1 �disease, one has had a kidney removed, but for the grace of God, I lost a brother at 46 from cancer, but that was 25 years ago. (04:39) Interviewer: ―What was farm life like during the depression?‖ It was tough, but you didn’t know it. We were poor, but nobody told us. We had a good time. We had six horses and a big old Fortson tractor with steel wheels. Later we got a better tractor, we got down to four horses and then 2 horses and then in 1940, my dad traded the last team of horses in for another tractor and the word spread around the community that ―doc Jandernoa, the veterinarian, he’s gone daft because you can’t farm without horses.‖ That’s the way it was in those days, if you had 80 acres that was considered to be a pretty good-sized farm. We had everything, some of us milked cows, we had a few beef cattle and we had sheep, horses, 450 chicks every spring and a couple hundred hogs. We never suffered for lack of food. We also had two big gardens and I don’t feel about those so fondly because I was the oldest boy and I had to do most of the hoeing, but I survived it and it didn’t hurt me. (05:50) Interviewer: ―Did your parents and your home have a radio?‖ Yes, we had one of those old models with the arched top. There are probably some of them still around, but we would crowd around it in the evening; of course we didn’t have any TV then. As a matter of fact we had a radio out in the barn and it was December 7th, a Sunday evening, and I was milking the cows and all of a sudden I heard on the radio that the Japs had attacked Pearl Harbor. I don’t know where the milk went, but I ran into the house and said, ―Turn on the radio, war!‖ and of course I wanted to go to war, but my dad had other ideas. (06:30) Interviewer: ―Let’s back track a little bit. The reason I got into the radio part of it was, were you aware of the rumblings of war that were going on in Germany and Japan?‖ Primarily, because we had an outstanding superintendent of our schools who also taught civics and history and he delighted in talking about current events. So we watched Germany, I started in school in ―37‖ and Germany was building up it’s armed forces and it was 1938, I believe when Neville Chamberlain went over and signed documents with Hitler. We had that paper in school and it said at the tip, ―Peace in Our Time‖ and it showed Chamberlain getting off the plane waving the papers and he thought he had peace. Then within six months Hitler just moved on you know. (07:20) Interviewer: ―It’s a very famous picture, I know just which one you are talking about.‖ ―The reason I asked that is, I’m trying to get at the heart of the reason why you would eventually want to join. You had some knowledge of what was going on, did you have, even at that age, any kind of opinion if it was wrong?‖ Hitler was very wrong and we were very anti-Hitler, but on the other hand there were a lot of Americans who said, ―Well that’s their war and we don’t want to get involved‖, including Senator Vandenberg, who was from Grand Rapids and a very powerful man in the house and senate at that time, he changed his mind and became very pro-war. (08:00) 2 �Interviewer: ― People don’t realize that Charles Lindbergh, a very famous major American hero at that time, was touring the country was saying that we shouldn’t get involved in another war in Europe. So the radio announcement was a shock to you and your family as well. What about your neighbors were there talk amongst your group at church or something?‖ Interviewer: The draft started, see Roosevelt saw the war coming on and a few others did, so we started building up machines and armaments. I remember, we started the draft and one of my friends, who is still alive, went into the army back in 1940 as I recall and he was in for five years, so as a few more guys got drafted, you became more and more aware and thought is that going to happen to be etc, etc. (08:47) Interviewer: ―What about your father? You alluded somewhat to there being a disagreement as to whether you should join. What was behind that?‖ Well, dad was in WWI as a Veterinarian with about 200 guys, and would you believe that in WWI they still had a few battles where they fought with cavalry with horses and sabers and his job was to keep the horses in shape for that and horses were used a lot to pull the trucks out of the mud because they had those trucks with chains that drove the back wheels etc. He had been over there and he had survived, he had pneumonia, he didn’t get injured, but he just said, ―Hey I was in the last was, we’re just going to skip this one‖. (09:26) I didn’t feel that way because I wanted to get in there, you know. I just wanted to get away into the military. Interviewer: “Eventually you did get into the military. What was the process in all of that and how did it happen?‖ Well, I graduated from school on May 15th of 1941 and my dad said, ―If you stay on the farm for a year and work, I’ll help you go through Michigan State, which was Michigan State College in those days and is now a University, and become a veterinarian, which seemed like a good deal, but then on the 7th of December when the Japs attacked, everything changed. My dad was opposed to my going and I kept working on the farm. On the 5th of September in 1942 I heard the air corps was having a test in Grand Rapids, I mean in Lansing, and it was in the afternoon about 1:30 or something like that. Anyway, I hitchhiked, now dad probably thought I was on one of the farms and my mom thought I was on another farm, but in those days you could hitchhike. I had hitchhiked to New York and Minnesota and everyplace, so I hitchhiked to Lansing and I walked into what I think was the Elks building and as you walked in you were about four feet above the main level and it was about the size of a basketball court out there and I first saw U of M, I saw Michigan State, I saw U of D, Aquinas, I don’t know about Aquinas, but Notre Dame and these guys had obviously been at school for at least a year because you don’t get a letter when you start college, you get it when you have been there a year or two. (11:07) I was thinking I was in over my head, just a high school kid with no extra training and I paused and thought, ―nobody knows I’m here, my mother doesn’t know I’m here and my dad doesn’t know I’m here and I can turn around and nobody will ever know except me and God.‖ By the grace of God, I went in and took the test. The test took a couple of hours and I think the only reason I did well was because I used to read, I read an awful lot and we got a good education, but not a broad education. I was short for example on calculus; I’d never had that. So when everyone had their test and they’re 3 �calling people half the guys had left and I went up to the table and I said, ―Sir I’ve got to milk the cows, can I leave?‖ He said, ―What’s your name?‖ I told him and he looks over here and he said, ―Oh ya, you got a good score, you stay.‖ So, out of 83 only eleven passed, think of the odds. (12:08) Then they started giving us physicals. You had to have perfect eyesight, 20-20, so out of the eleven only four passed and one had to come back for a recheck on his eyesight, one guy had a bad cold, one guy had a hearing problem and I was the only guy that could go right then. The guy said, ―sign right here‖ and I said, ―I can’t.‖ He said, ―You want to go into the air corps don’t you?‖ and I said, ―Ya‖ and he said, ―Well sign.‖ I said, ―I can’t, my dad will kill me‖ and I meant that because in those days you weren’t an adult until you were 21 and I’m only 18 now. My dad used to say, ―As long as you put your feet under my table, I make the final decisions‖ so, I hitchhiked back home and I started working on my father to let me go and finally in November he said, ―Look you’re not a very happy camper, you might as well go.‖ On the 11th of November 1942, I went to join the air corps. (13:00) Now they said, ―Were too busy, we can’t take you now‖ and I didn’t get in until January. Interviewer: ―Why the air corps as opposed to the army or navy?‖ At the age of eleven, I went to the Ionia Free Fair and I had a few dollars and there was a Ford tri-motor and it went across this rough parking lot that is still there and I thought it was very interesting and I went over there and my sister gave me my money because they didn’t want me to tag along with them so, they said they would meet me at so and so at (05:00). I stood out there for a while and a guy was there with a card table and I sign and I said, ―Mister, how much would it cost for me?‖ He said, ―Three dollars.‖ I had three bucks so that was my first flight. I can still remember that it was corrugated steel and it was like going into a corrugated steel building. There were steel ribs and there was no insulation or anything. It pounded across the field, but we got up in the air and I swear the guy started turning for the landing the minute he got the wheels off, but that’s the way they made money. (14:02) That was my first experience. My dad had a farm which was across the road from the Lansing Airport and as a little kid I used to go over there with him and I am talking about 5,6 and 7 now, and I would stand under a tree and watch those planes take off. I used to say, ―Lord, I don’t want anybody to get hurt, but if there’s going to be an accident anyway, why don’t you have it right over there so I can see it?‖ Kind of odd, but I remember that very well. Interviewer: ―I have heard from Army Air Corps guys from WWII tell a whole myriad of stories, but they all came down to sometime in their childhood, they either saw a plane or they got into a plane and that was it. They had to get into an airplane and they had to fly. Some of them washed out and ended up as bombardiers, navigators, etc., but a few of them became pilots. So what was the next step then? Your father finally relented, what was your mother’s opinion of all this?‖ Mom was very supportive, I think she wanted me to stay home, but she wouldn’t block me and I had an older sister who was very much in my corner and she worked on dad I’m sure. (15:10) Finally I got a telegram, in those days a lot of people didn’t have telephones, but we did because my dad was a veterinarian. I got a telegram and it said to report on the 28th of January 1943, in Detroit at the old Fort, Fort Wayne, which is still there today, and so for the first time in my life, my dad and my mother and the 6 children 4 �went out to a restaurant. First time, you didn’t do those things in those days because you didn’t have the money. We went to ―Chicken in the Rough‖, which was a block east of Grand River and Michigan Avenue in Lansing, on the NW corner. What you got was you got a basket with chicken and French fries and no utensils. We thought that was fantastic you know and I got on the bus and went to Detroit and then got on a train, coal fired, and it took us 56 hours to go from Detroit to Miami Beach and everyone had on white shirts, we didn’t have green shirts or blue shirts in those days. You were told to bring one set of underwear, that is all so, we got down there and we didn’t get our regular uniforms for eleven days. Did you ever see shat a white shirt looks like after it has been washed out eleven nights? Anyway, they put us up in a hotel, which was a dream because I expected we were going to be in tents, but during the service, the armed forces took over a lot of the civilian things. Well, they took over some of the nice hotels and ours was a three-story hotel, it was kind of inconvenient because I had to walk a whole block over to the ocean and I had never even seen the ocean before, and we had to walk a mile up to the golf course where we did our training. (16:52) Then we had mail call and for mail call we would line up in front of the hotel, there were just a few civilians, and we would line up in three ranks and you had to be very proper and turn etc. We had a guy by the name of Klink, a guy by the name of Clank, a guy by the name of Damm, a guy by the name of Jordan, whose fiancé wrote behind his name ―The man I love‖ and they couldn’t pronounce my name so, mail call went like this: Klink, Clank, Klink, Damm, Damm anybody seen Damm? The man I love, and finally Geronimo, and that was me. (17:22) so that was an experience I can---there were two little guys, Sammy and the Greek and they were not more than 5’6‖, but they had voices that were 10’10‖ and you could hear them for 10 miles. A great experience, good discipline, a lot of effort, sweat like mad, but just a great start. Interviewer: ―Let’s back up just a little bit to your arrival at the hotel. You’re with a group of people from where?‖ Michigan I believe. Interviewer: ―This is a new experience to you though, what were your first impressions of the army life so to speak?‖ I loved it because of the discipline you know, I loved to run and we did a lot of running, a lot of exercise. The guy that led the exercise was the coach at Yale, I can’t remember his name, but he was a rather stout guy and he was only about 5’8‖ and they had an elevated bench, not a bench, but a stand out there and he’d get up on there and he’d have a couple of hundred guys out there and he would say, ―Were all going to do push-ups and I would look out of the corner of my eye and he would say one and stop and he would say two and stop and catch his breath, three and stop and then we had to do 50 push-ups and then we had to do 50 sit-ups, but it was great because we were young and strong, we were selected, we had good health and they pushed us hard and we enjoyed it and the challenge. (18:48) Interviewer: ―Mostly when you think of ―Boot Camp‖ you think of barracks, you think of the parade ground, but you are saying this was different for you, you were training on a golf course. I have only met one other veteran that had an experience like that. 5 �You gotta be pretty darn lucky. I have a dear friend, he was with me here about a month ago and he tells everybody, ―I was in a tent and the water was running right through the tent and I’m down here in Louisiana and it’s muggy and he’s in that hotel.‖ (19:19) Interviewer: ―What about chow?‖ Chow was good. Chow was so good, in some places that if we were in town, we would go back to camp to eat and then go back to town. On the other hand, in Nashville Tennessee, the food was so bad that we would go through the line and dump it out, we weren’t assigned, all we had to do was pick up cigarettes because we were waiting for assignment, and we would go buy our food at the PX. I think I found a reason for that and didn’t say anything at the time, but I watched as a guy took a pound bag of sugar and put it in the back of a private car and I got a hunch there might have been a little bit of hanky-panky going on because sugar was scarce. Interviewer: ―So how long was basic training at the hotel and the golf course and that area?‖ That lasted for two months and then we got shifted to a college training detachment and they had so many people in the ―funnel‖ we call it, that they decided to put us in college for twenty weeks, and twenty weeks was to equal a year of college. We had sixteen classes. I went to North Carolina State and the only thing that bothered me was Calculus. I worked really hard because I didn’t have any college and I trained myself all through my service, to get up a few minutes before reveille, I don’t know how I did it, but I did. I would get up a few minutes early and get a shower and get going before the other guys. I studied hard and I got only ten weeks because at the end of ten weeks they shipped us out, but that counted as a year of college. (20:54) Interviewer: ―During this period of time, basic training and as you went through this college, were you aware of what was going on in the outside world, were you able to read the newspaper and things like that?‖ Oh, very much so, very much so. We lived in the college dorms with two to a room, which there would usually be, we had good food, excellent teachers and we were ―GungHo‖, we took speech, history, everything we had in high school, but on a higher level and those grades counted for a half a year of college. (21:26) Interviewer: ―Was there an elimination process in this period? Because I know that later on there was a washout process.‖ Next you go to Nashville, Tennessee and now you go through the physicals and other tests, and all of a sudden they say, ―‖Sorry buddy, but you’ll make a good navigator.‖ Everybody wanted to be a pilot, or they would say, ―Sorry buddy, we just got too many and you’re going to be a bombardier.‖ That is what actually happened. You were sent there and then you were sent on to Montgomery, Alabama for another two months in the summertime, very warm, very muggy, and we had to run seven miles. I loved that because I was a good long distance runner. They had 204 guys and I would beat 200 one time and 201 sometimes. There was one little guy about 5’8‖, I call him little, and I couldn’t beat him and I’m still mad at him, but that was great because you sweat like a 6 �hog and then we had so much salt, you come back in and you empty your pockets and walk in the shower with your clothes on and rinse them out and hang them up and put them out on the line and put another fatigue suit on and go to class. That was classless mostly. (22:45) That was a great experience. You talked about the parade grounds. It was the 4th of July that year and the general said, ―Were going to have a parade here.‖ It rained and it rained and he put us our on the field with these brooms, sweeping water off of the field and we finally had our parade and there were other generals there etc. and I would say there were several thousand guys, but I can’t remember the exact number. I can still remember that we had to stand at complete attention and you weren’t supposed to move a whisker and a guy falls over here and a guy falls over there and you wouldn’t dare pick him up. Someone would come up from the rear and carry them out. That was discipline. (23:27) Interviewer: ―Fainting because of the heat?‖ Yes, but the thing is, they locked their knees. When you’re standing, never lock your knees. You got to have a little give there. Interviewer “You moved from a small farm, Grand Rapids was not nearly the size that it is today, just in terms of perspective, you were from a very, very small town, you’re in this area and now you’re in the south. Did you notice any difference being in the south as opposed to being where you grew up?‖ A town of 500 people and yes, I got on this bus, I think it was a spur of the moment deal and there was nobody up front. There were at least four and if my memory is right, there were five blacks in the rear of the bus, so I decide heck I’m going to try this system so, I go to the back and sit down and the bus driver says, ―Hey young man, officer sir, you in the uniform, come up here.‖ I said, ― I’m comfortable where I am‖, and he said, ― You sit up here.‖ I said, ―Look, I’m sitting here.‖ He said, ― I won’t move the bus until you come up here.‖ The people around me said, ―Sir he means it, you go up there, we got to get home.‖ That was my first experience because I didn’t—there were no blacks where I grew up. I had not seen blacks except when we went to Grand Rapids and very rarely even then. (24.51) Interviewer: ―Were there other experiences in the south, not necessarily with blacks, but just in terms of--the culture is different, they talk differently?‖ We found that charming, they have a different language, you might say. They had the USO dances, you know, and you get acquainted with the girls and that was part of the fun of it and if you were in the air corps, well, that was real good. Later on when you got your wings—oh man, that meant a lot to a girl. ―I want to marry a man who has silver wings‖ or something like that or a ―Man who has silver wings‖, there was a song something like that. Interviewer: ―Once you completed your training there in the south, where did you go from there?‖ Then I went to Georgia and I got basic training in a PT 17, which is an open cockpit, twowing, a great plane, that was so good that they said, ―If you get into trouble, get your hands off because it will fly itself ―, and it did. From there we went to a PT 13, which is 7 �more like a fighter plane and it had sliding glass in the cockpit and you were enclosed and it would go about 250 miles an hour, which was a big step up and then from there, I hoped to get into the fighter planes, everybody wanted to be a fighter pilot. I couldn’t, the said, ―You’re too tall.‖ They sent me to a twin-engine plane flying at Moody Field, Georgia and that field is still open today, by the way. When I graduated from there, I was in class 44C, which means A, B, C, and would be March. Then I had ten days to come home, strut around in my Lieutenant bars— Interviewer: ―Let’s for the family’s sake, and I know you’re a modest man, but this is the opportunity, OK—come home in your uniform to the farm, your mom and dad and everyone is there—Come on Don what was that like?‖ Oh, picture in the paper, you know—the first guy that had, in that area, ever become a pilot and this was big time and I called some of my old girl friends and had a date here and had a date there, in fact, one of them was a nurse at St. Mary’s Hospital and I came over to see her and I took her out to Ramona Park, they still had a roller coaster there and I think they still had a the steamer on Reeds Lake there that you could go out for a ride on etc. (27:11) Then I went back and now they sent me back to Montgomery, Alabama for training in a B-24 , which is a four-engine plane. Now, this is where you got into the more serious, I mean if you couldn’t handle that plane you got weeded out, but that was successful. While I was there, they took a bunch of us and they flew us up to Topeka, Kansas and they said, ―We want you to look at this B29‖, which was far bigger. That’s the one that dropped the Atomic Bomb on Japan and that was the main plane for bombing Japan during the war. They said, ―You can fly this as a co-pilot or you can go back and fly your B-24’s.‖ I said, ―I want to be a pilot, I want to be in charge.‖ We went back and continued with the B-24’s and from there they sent us to Lincoln, Nebraska where we picked up a crew, I didn’t know any of them, a nine man crew, and we went to Boise, Idaho to Owen Field, which is now the main airfield for Boise, Idaho. (28:14) Interviewer: ―Now, was this crew from all over the country?‖ See, we were in the so called eastern command, so I had two from New York, two from Pennsylvania, one from Detroit, one from Minneapolis, one from Chicago, and one from Indiana. Interviewer: ―You’re in charge of this group. You’re not only responsible for their discipline etc., but their lives?‖ Yes. Interviewer: ―What was your first impression of this group? I realize it is a long time ago, but what was your impression?‖ Well, some of them shaped-up real quick. I had one guy who was quiet, you never could quite figure him out, he was a loner, but he was just a gunner so, he got by. My co-pilot, he was a very—he was a better pilot than I was, but he didn’t want to be first pilot, what he wanted was ―Wine, women and song‖. That proved to be a problem so, I kind of broke him of that, he came in one day and we were practicing in Boise, Idaho and we are practicing as if we were in combat and you come into this room and you got 28 crews there and they’re all lined up in rows of ten, ten, ten, ten and it’s 5:00 AM and you’re 8 �supposed to stand-up and say ―All present and accounted for sir‖, and fortunately my initial is ―J‖ so I’m in the middle of the alphabet so, they get down to ―D‖ or ―E‖ and he’s not there. He’s not home from the night before and all of a sudden this barrel of whiskey goes right by and sits down next to me and I said, ―All present and accounted for sir‖. So, I decided, by the grace of God, that I got to break him of this so, he was a good pilot and we were flying number two in that particular formation and we have to be a little bit above and behind this guy, and were supposed to be out here where if you overshoot, you hit him. Well, I tucked it in and were flying with oxygen masks, this is combat flying supposedly, and I said, ―Bill you’re taking over‖, and he had to put his seat up and he had his oxygen mask on and he’d sweat and sweat and I’d look over at him and take mercy and I’d say ―Bill, I’ll take it‖ and would take over just long enough to get the sweat wiped off and then I’d say, ―Bill, it’s all yours‖, and I just wore him out and he didn’t say anything. The next morning he came in and he said, ―Jando‖, you win. (30:26) And that was the last time that happened. Interviewer ―Jando?‖ They couldn’t pronounce my name so they called me ―Jando‖. Interviewer: “It took me a long time to figure that one out myself.‖ We thought it came from the Alsace Lorraine, but were not sure, were still trying to trace it. Interviewer: ―Anytime during this period of time, you could have washed out, right?‖ Yea, at this point –yea, I didn’t realize it, but there were some pilots that washed out. I’ve got a friend who was a co-pilot, he is very close to me and he was in our group. He said to me that he lost two first pilots that washed out, which really surprised me because you’d have thought that by the time they got that far—but that happens. Interviewer: ―So, at this point in time, how aware of the war are you? Do you know if you’re going to Japan, do you know if you’re going to Europe? (31:17) We wanted to—I think inherently I wanted to go to Europe. Japan—first of all, I couldn’t swim very well. Secondly, Japan is long distances and Europe; you’re more familiar with that because of your background and studies. So, they ship us from there, Boise, Idaho to Topeka, Kansas and we got up there and they said, ―Were going to shoot you out of here in four days on a train bound for Newport News, but you’re going to get a four day pass. You’re not going to get a four-day pass, we’ll give you a one day pass and a three day pass, but don’t show the three day pass to anybody until it’s valid. The one day is for the first day.‖ Well, these guys—we didn’t know this and we thought about how we were going to get home, two guys got to go to New York, two guys got to go to Pennsylvania, one to Detroit, one to Chicago, Minneapolis—so, I called my sister and I said, ―I’m going to write a check for $400.00 and I’m going to give each one of these guys 50 bucks that don’t have money so they can go home. (32:19) The guys from New York had to actually go home, get home at night, spend the night with their family and get on the train the next day to get back, but it was home and we didn’t know if we were ever going to see home again. It was very well done and it was a great experience and I often wondered how they got by because if the M.P. on the train says, ―I want to see your 9 �pass‖, and with a one day pass he asked where you were going and the soldier said, ―I’m going to New York‖, ―On a one day pass, baloney.‖ From there we went to Newport News and then shipped over. (32:50) Interviewer: ―I want to go back to something you kind of ran right over. You said that you didn’t know if you were going to see home again. I think in terms of your crew, they probably thought those thoughts as well, but you have to be thinking of it even more so because you’re in charge of this. Was that something you were aware of, even at that young age?‖ That’s the responsibility of being an officer and especially being a pilot and I was lucky, I was—I wouldn’t say I was cocky, but I was sure. I had a great deal of confidence in myself, I had a great relationship with the lord and I just figured that if I did everything they taught me and use what God gave me, it was going to work out all right. There were times in combat when I began to wonder if he was trying us a little bit too much, but we did get back. (33:41) Interviewer: ―I wanted that point made, that there was an awareness on your part that your responsibility to these men and the fact that it wasn’t playing games, this was for real.‖ Well, that ran—if you were a leader, so you’re an officer, say you’re a Colonel or a General, the guys that really did the job; they bled almost when we bled, and we were a team. The guys in England got far more early, they were there earlier than we were in Italy, see we were in southern Italy and we would read the Stars and Stripes, everybody read that, Bill Mauldin was always in there, Ernie Pyle was always in there, I’ve got a few of those and I wish that I had kept every one, but you try to keep current and you think, ―Gosh they got the heck shot out of them.‖ (34:32) These are our buddies, and I wondered if any of them were guys from the group I went to school with. Interviewer: ―So you’re now on the brink of going into actual combat. Where did you go from there?‖ We went to southern Italy to Taranto, this is by boat and going over you zig zag going like this and going like that to avoid the submarines. It was beautiful; we didn’t have any storms or anything on the way over. The officers were allowed on deck and you get up there on deck and you weren’t allowed to have any lights and you can see the other boats over there and you keep looking and wondering if that’s a periscope or is that a submarine. We got there and it took us 13 days, which was an awful long time. (35:14) Interviewer: ―Had you ever been on a ship that size before?‖ No, I never had been on a ship before. Interviewer: ―Did you get sick?‖ No, by the grace of god I didn’t get sick. So, we pulled into Taranto and Italy is like a boot and Taranto is way down here in the arch and it’s Taranto as I recall and there are half a dozen boats as I remember all side by side and we’re talking back and forth and we’re there about three or four hours and the word is that this is just a stop over and we 10 �will go on to India and we’re going to be flying the ―Hump‖. All of a sudden the word came to grab your bags and get off. We got off, walked about a quarter of a mile and got on a train, this was a cattle car train, open slats on the sides between the wood and straw in there to sleep on. We got in there and about dark, I would say we weren’t in there more than a half hour, it was a car close to being a cattle car and to the old cars from WWI and then the train moved. (36:16) I woke up and there are an awful lot of unhappy people outside and I didn’t like some of the language, I didn’t know what it was, it was Italian. So, my friend Frank Batami was from Lodi, New Jersey, right across from New York City and I said, ―Frank, you speak Italian, what’s going on?‖ He said, ―Don, sir, somebody stole the signal lantern and we ain’t moving until they get it back.‖ I said, ―Oh gosh, put your shoes on, put your shoes on.‖ So, we jumped out and had to jump about that far to the ground and we went to the first car and knocked on it and said, ―Hey guys, somebody stole the signal lantern and if we get it back with no problems, we won’t even care, but if we have to come in after it‖---nothing happened. (37:00) We went to the second one and then the third and the door opened about eight inches and a hand came out, I took the lantern, the door closed and I gave it to the signal man and we went. If not, we might be there yet. Interviewer: ―This was at night?‖ Yes, this was at night. It was 1:30 or 2:00 in the morning. Interviewer: “Where did you arrive at?‖ Went to Bari, which was the headquarters for the 15th Air Force, it is a coastal city. Italy has a thorn over on the side and Bari is right there. Rome is way up here and we are directly across from Naples. And that was the headquarters and we were fill-in troops, we didn’t have our own complement so, some went to this field and some went to another. Whoever lost the most crews, that’s where we went. We went to the 454th, which was near Charignola and the first night they didn’t have a place for us to sleep, but they said they had no tents set up for us, but they had a new dining room cafeteria, the cement was a little green, but they said it would be all right. We put several layers of blanket down and slept on green cement. We’re all 18, 20-22 and I never got up so stiff in my life as I did from sleeping on that green cement. (38:21) the food was good there, but it was very limited. We had bread, always-good bread and that was good, lots of canned peaches and Spam, Spam, Spam. Never got any fresh meat, never got any fresh milk, but we survived. Interviewer: ―Give us an idea what this area was like. Did you have barracks there, was it a town, what was it?‖ A town of tents and there was a big old farmhouse and apparently it was sort of like a southern plantation. This farmhouse was so big that you could get 200 men in the basement for briefing, so that’s where we—they had a big map on the wall. This is where we’re going to bomb and this is the time and then you get this confidential information and they say, ―You got to be here at this time, there at that time and if you can’t see it, you go over to this alternate target‖ and that sort of thing. (39:08) 11 �Interviewer: ―Walk me through the routine. What time do you get up? You go to the farmhouse, you get the briefing, who is at the briefing.‖ My memory is that we had to be at the briefing by 5:30, but you are supposed to have a meal before that and either walk over there or if you were late, you might even get a Jeep ride. You get out to your plane, check everything, get your parachutes, in fact we got parachutes before we went to the plane, and we would ride ten guys on a Jeep, plus the driver. It was crazy. You’re hanging on. You’re standing in front of the driver or anywhere at all and then you would get everything together and eventually they would say, ―Start your engines‖ and you test each one and then you’re all set and you’re talking back and forth. You have a check list two pages long, you have to check every engine for this, this and this and now you release the brakes on top of your pedals and you taxi out. You get in a long line of 28 and there is a man standing there in a Jeep and he’s got a flare gun, he checks the time, 7:42, and he shoots the flare and the first guy takes off and he waits so many seconds, I think it was a full minute and the second guy takes off. You have to circle and circle until everybody catches up because you want to fly in formation for a pattern bombing because you are not each one using your Norden bomb sight, you got two or three and you drop the formation based on the first plane. (40:58) You have to go round and round and then you also want to be in formation because each plane had 10 guns and if we got 28 ships in one group, that means we got 280 guns. In that way if you get attacked you got a real chance, but if you’re all alone, a fighter has much more maneuverability and your chances are not so good. (41:19) Interviewer: ―What was your first flight like?‖ They couldn’t find me and this guy shakes me and we were in a new tent. It was the 5th of December and we had been there since the 6th of November and it was a brand new tent and they didn’t know where I was and I was right close to the headquarters and this guy shakes me and on a first flight, you don’t fly with your crew, you fly with an experienced crew. So I’m the only guy and he shakes me up and he said, ―You only got 20 minutes and you got to be there or it’s a court martial offense, grab your clothes.‖ So I’m putting my clothes on in the Jeep and we get down there and of course I had no breakfast and I get in the first briefing with the crew, don’t know the crew and I sat down next to Al Faxton, who was a veteran of a pilot. I didn’t know this until many years later that Al had gotten into trouble. He got drunk and had stolen a Jeep, not a good thing for an officer. I understand that they put him in jail for a while and so he was on the bad list and so we got the worst plane that was there. (42:16) Everything is going fine I’m sitting over in the co-pilot’s seat and he is in the pilots seat and he said, ―Everything Ok?‖ and I said, ―Yup.‖ ―Ok, let’s go‖, and he releases the brakes and he falls over backwards. This was this old formed metal it wasn’t steel. In other words, it was formed and it broke off in the front. This was an old plane and he is lying back like this and the crew chief and the radio operator and I think maybe we won’t fly. No, he called to see if there were any machine gun boxes on the plane. They had about a half dozen and he told them to bring them up to the front. So, they moved his seat forward and put the boxes behind him and pushed the seat back. He said, ―Ok, let’s go.‖ If we had gotten shot up, we had no way of getting out. Anyway, we took off and were flying ―tail end Charlie‖, last place, the worst place and were going to Poland, the longest flight we ever made, so when you go that far you worry about gas and the last guy has the most amount of adjusting to do 12 �because the lead guy, he doesn’t make any adjustment and the next guy makes a little adjustment and the next a little more etc. and you got seven more over here and seven more over there and some down below and the further you are back the more jockeying you have to do. When we came off the target two guys went to Russia because they didn’t have enough gas. (43:42) Interviewer: ―Was that an ultimate target?‖ Well, no we went to Russia for safety. Russia was on our side. We were going to Auschwitz in Poland, which was within three miles of the concentration camp, the worst concentration camp, where they killed millions. We were told and I remember that yet, ―Don’t hit the camp, if you can’t see your target, which was the railroads yards, don’t drop.‖ Well, it was clear so we could see the target. After the war a lot of people thought it would have been better if we had bombed Auschwitz. We would have killed people, but we would have saved a lot of lives because we could put those ovens out of commission and we would have saved lives. (44:16) Interviewer: ―So, you’re ―tail end Charlie‖ and this is your first flight, not with your crew, what was the experience?‖ A lot of flak and I have never been sick on an airplane, but would you believe this was the only time and I always feel this is a sign of weakness, but not having had any breakfast and we’re on a bomb run and you have to keep it level and I have to ―Pitch my cookies‖ and I have my oxygen mask on and I take it off and I have a steel helmet on and I hold it like this and the only thing that would come up was green you know and that is why I didn’t wear it anymore after that, but anyway the pilot, he was very understanding and that is the only time I ever got sick and it was on my first mission. I think, ―Is this a sign of cowardliness or what?‖ But, as I remember, not having any breakfast might have had something to do with it. I just put the helmet aside and put the oxygen mask back on and went we got home. Some planes just didn’t make it back because they ran out of gas. (45:20) I don’t know how many we lost over the target, but I don’t recall that we lost very many that day. That wouldn’t be a prime area for the Germans to defend. They wanted to defend their big factories and their gas making facilities. (45:38) Interviewer: “What was the experience of flak on that mission? You had never experienced it before had you?‖ No. Interviewer: ―You had been told about it, you knew about it, how was the actual experience?‖ Just, people think about it. They’re shooting at you and they want to hit you, not exactly. As an example, flak was a shell, if I recall, that is about 3 ½‖ in diameter and it didn’t burst on contact, it burst at a certain height. They were all the time trying to figure out, ―Let’s see, they are 20,000 feet, they are 22,300 ft., and they crank that into their guns and into the shell and the shell goes up to that height and breaks, it explodes and if you are within a couple of hundred feet of it, I don’t know just how far, but a couple hundred feet you get bounced. The worst I remember was coming back with 85 holes in my plane, but a lot of guys had a lot more than that and if the plane, Bill, I can’t remember his last name, but I still remember, it was a day I didn’t fly and he said, ―Don, you have 13 �to come down to the flight line.‖ I had just got back and I said, ―Fine‖. We walk down the flight line, we go through the bomb bay, go up on the flight deck and here is his seat right there and right here within 8 inches of the back of his seat you could look down and see the ground right there. There was a hole about this big and then he said, ―Look up‖ and there’s a round hole right above it. Now this shell, we’re going over 250 miles an hour and the shell, gosh, who knows how fast that’s going, but it missed him by a tenth of a second. (47:13) It didn’t burst because it burst at a certain altitude. By the way, most of them were black, I don’t know why, but every now and then they send up a red one or a white one. Maybe that was for celebration or something. Interviewer: ―On that first flight, it is your first experience in combat, flak is going off, did you see other planes getting hit and going down?‖ I didn’t see anybody going down on that first run, that happened later on I saw a lot of them go down, but not on that one. You know, on average we might have lost 10% , but there might be some flights where you would lose 30% and early in the was they even lost more. By the time I was there, the good part of it was that we had fighter protection. They had taken the P-51, the P-38’s in particular and put extra gas on them so they could fly with us and they would go with us almost to the target and then they would wait and when we got off target. Our flight guys were the Tuskegee Airmen and these were black guys, bright guys, great pilots and they had a wonderful record, but this is segregation time and there were many people in the armed forces who said, ―We don’t want them in the armed forces, they’re just going to screw up. They can’t handle it. They don’t have the brains.‖ That is pure malarkey. These guys recognized, I forget how many hundred distinguished flying crosses they got, they got all sorts of records and while they protected our bomb groups, we never lost a bomber, they were that good. (48:53) Interviewer: ―when did they come into the picture? You went on this first raid and then there were other raids that you went on.‖ Ya, they were with us by the time I started the first raid. I don’t know whether they went all the way to Auschwitz with us or not, I can’t recall that, but if we would go to Vienna or Munich or Bratislava, Czechoslovakia or Ploesti, they would be with us and we would get within the bomb run and the last two minutes you got to be on level and that’s where the flak is. They would leave and after, they would come back. (49:32) Interviewer “So, standard operating procedure was not only because of the gasoline on the fighter, but their job was to escort you to the target and then you were on your own?‖ Yes, and then when you came off, they were back to escort you back again. Interviewer: ―Obviously the German fighters aren’t going to go into the flak either. They are going to be hitting you either before or after.‖ Right. They’re sitting up there waiting for us and they were particularly looking for the stragglers and even if you lost an engine, you tried to stay in formation because you had more safety. The guys that got shot down at that time in the war were mostly the guys that had a problem that they couldn’t keep up. (50:07) 14 �Interviewer: ―Over the next few missions, were there any ones in particular that you recall? Were there any experiences that you felt were new to you?‖ We went to the St. Valentines Tank Works and we had a new guy, you know, what do you call him? The officer who explains what you’re going to do, I forget the name for that. He’s up there and he is a Captain and I don’t know what his background was, but he said, ―Guys it’s a milk run.‖ And we sigh and think a milk run, no problem and he said, ―Here’s Linz, here’s Steiger and here’s Graz ―, as I remember. He said, ― Here is the St. Valentine Tank Works right in the middle‖, now, the St. Valentines Tank Works has no defense, no guns, so if you come in on this level, I think it was 40 or 50 degrees, you come in like this and you drop your bombs and you turn over here and you come out with say 140 degrees going this way, they can’t touch you because you are just out of range. Wow, we think this is pretty good. We go t up there and I tell you, that was one of the worst missions I ever saw. Three guys ahead of me got shot down and what happened, the mistake he made was this—he thought we were out of range of these guns, but forgot that those guns were not at sea level, he was figuring everything was at sea level and they were up here on the side of a mountain, 5-10 thousand feet high. They just peppered us. That was a bad one and another one was—we got a new guy from the United States who was a Major (51:41) and he had been training in the United States and a good pilot I was told and he was leading his first flight and he wanted to become a Colonel and so he had to lead. We’re going after a bridge up in Hungary as I remember that was April of 1945 and we’re carrying 3,000 lb. Bombs, just one per plane, normally we would have several 100 lb bombs., a few 250’s, several 500 lb. Bombs, but we were trying to get this bridge in the mountains, this railroad bridge and every plane had one 3,000 lb. bomb and they said, ―If we can pattern bomb, all we have to do is break off one part of that bridge, but don’t drop your bomb in the Adriatic if you can’t drop them on target. We haven’t got anymore and we have to keep these.‖ So, we get up there and I’m flying number 3, number 4, pardon me. You have three planes here. This is the lead plane and these two are on his wings. There’s three more like that and I’m number 4 down here, so I got a guy on the wing and there’s a guy below me. I’m in Charlie box over here. (52:45) The target is just behind this wall of weather, were out and everything is clear and we’re going higher and higher and it’s like somebody said, ―Hey, here is a wall and all you have to do is get up here and it’s all ok.‖ But, it was over 25,000 feet and we couldn’t be sure so, were weaving like this and when you get at 24,000 feet and you’re hanging on your ―Pops‖ as they call it. You just don’t have enough thickness of the air, I guess density is what they call it, and at the last minute he turns off. He didn’t turn off in time. We’re in Charlie box and we go into the clouds. Now, you talk about praying, as we go into the clouds, he also dropped his nose and we did too so, we’re going and going down and I’m thinking, ―What should I do? There’s a guy on each wing below me, there’s three up there, I better not do anything.‖ I didn’t do anything, I didn’t do anything and finally I said, ―Lord, I’m going to count to ten, I got to pull this thing out—we’re going over 450 miles an hour and we’re not supposed to go that fast.‖ At the count of 9, we broke out. This guy’s gone, this guy’s gone that guy down there’s gone the guy back there’s gone, but this guy is right there and if we would have pulled up we would have hit him so, you talk about prayer. Again, that’s part of the training, you learn to make decisions and you never know—you have to know how to parachute, you don’t practice that, but you have it in your mind. (54:25) 15 �Interviewer: ―Was there a sense the training was so accurate, the training was so intense and you had this definite focus, that it almost became 2nd nature, there were these things that you did.‖ It was but, it was also fear and we have to admit and it will be in the annals. You see, the Norden bomb sight, that was the bombardier and at that particular time everything was connected to that and he’s controlling the plane and he’s the lead one and if he gets shot down, his right hand man is doing the same thing. So, everybody’s flying off of him, ok? Now, if the flak is getting real bad and he gets afraid, all he has to do is turn the bombsight forward and when it hits a certain spot the bombs drop. Sometimes guys got afraid and dropped their bombs here instead of there. (55:23) That could happen. I was afraid many times and I wanted to get the heck out of there, but I said, ―No, I accepted this, I signed up and I was in for the duration.‖ Interviewer: “There did come an incident though that was far more dramatic than any of the other experiences.‖ Well, this is more of personal experience. We’re going to Mussbayrbaum oil refinery, which is right on the edge of Vienna, by the way, I want to bring this out into today’s world, Hitler produced approximately 90% of their petroleum from coal and they did that at Mussbayrbaum and what was the one over in Hungary? It will come to me in just a minute. They defended these very well so, we Re going over the Mussbayrbaum oil refinery and this is the first time I went over there, I went back twice getting shot bad and they get our wing tanks. We got sealing wing tanks normally, but we were losing gas, so we come down off Vienna, off Mussbayrbaum and we go over to Yugoslavia and we head down the Adriatic Sea, just off Yugoslavia. They wouldn’t shoot at us there because if you go over land, there might be a gun in there. We’re watching this gas and pretty soon oh, oh, we Re trying to make it to a landing strip with a 3,000 ft. runway, which is too short for our plane, but it was an emergency and maybe if we could get in there, we could put the parachutes out on each side and stop the plane before it hit the mountain at the end of the runway. (57:02) I’m glad we didn’t get there because when I did get there the following day, I found two B-24’s plastered against that wall up there, that mountain. So, by the grace of God, we ran out of gas 13 miles short and naturally I’m saying, ―Let’s get back over to land because we can’t get down there.‖ I turned left toward Yugoslavia and I could see a few mountains there and I know the Isle of Alavar was right there—Alavar is about 22 miles long and 2-4 miles wide and the peaks are up to, they say, 24-28 hundred, something like that, but there was a cloud cover almost solid, not quite solid, so we could see a few mountains so at 17,500, I told the guys to start bailing out. Well, it’s my job to hold the plane, so when I left the cockpit we’re at 7,500 feet and the ten crew member I had, they all drifted over the island. I didn’t have enough time, there was a strong North wind more by the grace of God than anything else. There was one other problem. In the plane, and this almost cost me my life, here is the cockpit and there’s a red button right down there and the only purpose of that red button is to give an S.O.S. if you are in dire need and we had a radio tower in southern Italy and we had one in Yugoslavia, or somewhere in our territory, and we had one close to the German lines and they would intersect like this, there is a name for it, but it escapes me, and they would say, ―We say 16 �it’s there and we say it’s there and he says it’s there.‖ They would find the spot and send out rescue people. (58:47) That day I had a strange, it wasn’t my regular pilot and that was his job and he didn’t push the button, so nobody looked for us. I bail out and I can’t make it to land, so I land in the water, get rid of my parachute, open my sea drop marker, which makes an area of about 50 –100 ft. in diameter, which is yellow, so if you are flying over you look and see it. Interviewer: ―Now, looking back for just a minute. What about your crew?‖ They all went out before me and they all drifted. Interviewer: ―You gave the order for them to go, so they went out and you came out last?‖ I came out last. Forty years later when I joined my association, which I didn’t even know existed, my name was listed in the magazine and I got a phone call from a guy and he said, ―I’ve been looking for you for over forty years and I only flew with you one time. You don’t know me, but I was your substitute bombardier and I only flew with you one time and then you bailed out. I’m not only looking for you, but I’m looking for the nose gunner because I want to see if the implant of my boot is still where I put it because he hesitated when he was supposed to bail out.‖ (60:00) Those guys fortunately all lit on land. One had an injured and the rest of them had only minor things. My navigator was a very religious guy and the only married man on the crew and he hit his head when he was going through an apple tree and he said, ―I can remember this, I was at attention on my back, with my hands folded in prayer and I’m looking up there’s this parachute up here and it’s waving in the wind and I don’t know if I’m in heaven or on earth.‖ Anyway, I lit in the water got rid of my parachute and I opened my ―Mae West‖, that was what we called the life jacket, and it came around your collar like this and around the front like this. It kept you back to keep your mouth out of the water and if you swam, you had to go like this. Then realizing that as I got soaked with water, I got heavier and heavier, I threw away my gun, threw away my knife, threw away my boots, threw away my gloves, threw away my hat or helmet or cap and started to swim. (01:01:10) It’s the 31st of January, I’m a quarter of a mile from shore and I’m not a good swimmer and I swam and swam and swam and yelled and yelled and prayed and prayed and swam and now I’m getting blue. Interviewer: ―It was cold?‖ The temperature is below 45 degrees. That’s the average temperature. They say it’s probably around 44 or 43. Pretty soon you can’t move anymore and so I’m still praying and still yelling as long as I could and finally I got to the point where I couldn’t talk and I look up and here comes a Spitfire, one of the best planes ever made. This is a British plane and he sees that air sea dye marker so, he comes down like this. Since we were all gone about an hour late, they finally sent people out looking for us. (01:02:03) He comes down and he goes back up like that and I said, ―Too bad, you could have been a hero—wait—if you drop a raft, I can’t get in it, you can’t land, you could have been a hero. Too bad.‖ He turns around and he comes back down and I said, ―Pull out, pull out you damn fool, you’ll kill yourself.‖ He goes up and he goes off. He sees something that I don’t see and as he disappears, somebody grabs me on the back and here was this fishing boat with four men in it, three of them were—one guy could barely stand, as a 17 �matter of fact he was in his 80’s, and only one guy under 65 and a 14 year old boy. My crew are bailing out over here and here is Havar and they walk this way, they knew we were in safe territory, I was over here on this side, so these guys were from this town of Storygrad and there getting wood and they debated whether they should help me. The week before, somebody had been out in the water fishing and a German patrol plane came down and riddled it and four guys got injured. So they are debating if they should go or not. The other problem was that the German patrol planes usually came down about 3:00 and they hadn’t been there and it is now (01:03:15) and is he late or isn’t he coming? They supposedly, after debating, the 14 year old boy said, ―We got to, we got to.‖ They prayed, I believe in prayer, but I’m glad they didn’t pray too long, and they started rowing. They say I was in the water for an hour. It’s been debated whether you can live that long in the water, but then more recently I have talked to doctors who said that if you’re young, in good health and have a desire to live, you can survive. (01:03:54) So they grabbed me at the last minute, pulled me in the boat, took all my clothes off except my shorts and this 14 year old boy had two pair of leggings, I call them, that came down to the knee and he took one of those off and put those on me, somebody gave me a shirt, somebody gave me a sweater and they start rowing. I’m sitting on the boat and I can’t talk and I can’t do much of anything and they row for a while and I’m beginning to feel a little bit and I smile a little bit—It’s funny, I don’t know why I did this, but I said ―Americanski‖, why I put the ski on it, that’s in Poland that is 500 miles away, maybe 800 , but later on, in fact last year, I met a guy who had a similar experience and he said, ―The first thing I said to the Yugoslav’s was ―Americanski‖.‖ So, I guess that’s us American. Anyway, they said, ―Ya, ya.‖ I said, ―Germans‖ and they said, ―That way.‖ They couldn’t speak any English. (01:04:51) They kept rowing and this kid kept massaging my legs and we got back to shore and they took me down—this town is built—it’s about three miles to this point down here and this town is built right around that little dot there and it’s an old town and this island was settled before the time of Christ. It’s all rock, beautiful water, good fishing, but all rock and very difficult to raise any food. They carried me like a guy who’s got a bad leg from football and they carried me down the street. We go upstairs and this is a building like you might see in any small town. Go to Lowell for example, the first floor of this building has got—it’s a retail store—tall 16-18 feet high and there’s going to be stairs outside where you can go up. The shopkeeper lives up above. So, they take me up there and they get me into a kitchen, which is surprisingly large. I would say maybe 14x14, which is large for a kitchen you come up the stairs and you go just like this there’s the kitchen and in that corner, in the opposite corner, is a stove just like we had back on the farm. It was a cook stove and you put the wood in here and the ashes are down here and here’s the oven and the smoke and the fire go around the it heats the reservoir of water over here and then goes on up. (01:06:16) So, they took me over there, opened the oven door and put a couple of sticks of wood in and set me on a chair and put my feet in the oven. Now, I don’t believe in cooking your legs, but that felt pretty good at the time and they really stuffed this stove. Then they took off everything I had up here and they started rubbing me. Then George arrived and George and I became good friends real quick. George was 75 years of age and I’m 21 and he had lived in St. Louis, Missouri from 1900 to 1925, so he spoke English very well. George sits where you are, I got my feet in the oven and everybody in town had to see me. This is the first American you 18 �know, so everybody clump, clump, clump up that stairs and they stand over there and they talk to George and George to me and back and forth , so were getting better and I’m feeling a little better and George says. ― You got a phone call.‖ ―Phone call? You got telephones?‖ ― Ya.‖ ―Where is it?‖ ―Down the street, can you walk?‖ ―I don’t know, but let’s try.‖ So, we go down there and the phone is on the side of a building and this is the part you speak in and the other part is on a rope and you put it up here, it’s the old stuff, so I said, ―Hello‖, and this voice said, ―Jando, oh it’s good to hear your voice.‖ And I said, ―Al how are ya‖, he was my navigator, and he said, ―Fine, how many you got with ya?‖ I said, ―I’m alone, how many you got?‖ and he said, ―Nine with me.‖ And I said, ―Wait a minute, nine and one is ten, what happened? Who’s missing?‖ He said, ― Batami.‖ ―Oh god‖ I said, ―How many parachutes did you count?‖ He said, ―I counted nine beside myself.‖ I said, ―that’s what I counted, do you suppose his parachute didn’t open?‖ (01:08:03) So, he said, ―look we got a Brit here and he’s got a stripped down American PT boat and he’s going to take us around in the morning. We’re going to come around and pick you up and we’re going to go back around the island and then we’re going to go down to Vis, where we wanted to be anyway, and then we’ll fly back to Italy.‖ But, he said, ―I guess all we can do is pray, are guys are ok, banged up a little bit.‖ So, I said, ―We have to pray.‖ So, we go back upstairs and George is talking and I’m still sitting by the fire and George says, ―Don,‖ by the way, they fed me something that looked like a Lima Bean, it was about that big and it was purple. I hated them, but when you’re in Rome you know—I ate it and they did have a little brown bread and they had chicory for coffee. That’s a green weed that has almost no leaves on it. That’s what their coffee was. And so I ate and their people kept coming up and finally George says, ―Don, this is very important. You are our guest and I want you to listen to me, you are our guest and we’re going to make you a gift. To my knowledge it’s the only one on the island and you must accept it. Do you understand me?‖ Ok. I trusted him. So, a man steps out of the line over here and he comes up and he’s got his hands like this. Just pretend you never heard this story. It’s the only one on the island, it’s the 31st of January 1945, and these people have known nothing but war since 1938, what’s in his hands? A thousand dollars if you guess it. He had a can of Spam. Of all the things that I didn’t want—I hate Spam. I had Spam for breakfast that morning; I had Spam the night before and the day before I didn’t fly and as I remember we had Spam for lunch. That was a part of our regular meal, we never had any fresh meat. We had a place to eat and a place to sleep, which wasn’t true of a lot of guys who were on the ground. 10:13 Anyway, I ate Spam. Now they want to have a drink and I didn’t drink in those days and I said, ―I’m sorry, I don’t drink.‖ Then he said, ―Oh, I got some good news, your man has been found and he is ok.‖ Well, Batami thought we were above the German lines and as he hid out it got colder and colder and there was a little snow on the ground, but not much and he got to thinking we were above the German lines and then he got to thinking, ‖Earlier in the evening I heard some of our guys laughing, so if they’re laughing it must be ok.‖ So, he walks into town and they call over etc. Now George says, ―You got to have a drink.‖ And I said, ―Ok.‖ So they gave us little glasses like this you know and 6 or 8 men over here by the wall and they line up everybody and they put this white lightning in there. I had never drank before, they had beer back on the farm as a kid, but I just decided in the service that was one thing I didn’t need to do. (01:11:05) So, now we have a toast to the three leaders of the free world. I asked the high school kids this and I 19 �laugh at how few of them can figure it out I say free world because if I just say world, some of them will say Hitler and we’re not going to toast Hitler. So, we would say, ―To Churchill, to Stalin, to Roosevelt.‖ They would leave and more guys would come in and we would do it again. ―To Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill.‖ It was funny; I would love to have a picture of that. We were really excited I mean we were boisterous. ―To Churchill, to Roosevelt, to Stalin.‖ Finally I got to thinking, ―You know I’m probably the only American they have ever seen so, I can’t be a fool.‖ So, I sipped the stuff instead of drinking it and finally I said to George, ―I’m tired.‖ And George said, ―Ok.‖ I don’t think I was tired, I think I just wanted to get away. (01:12:05) Interviewer: ―How many shots did you have?‖ Oh gosh, I don’t know, I don’t know. I felt that we were warm on the inside I can remember that part. I would imagine it was pear juice or something like that. It was powerful. They put me to bed and they put me on a tick mattress and most people don’t know what a tick mattress is, but you take two pieces of canvas and you stitch them together all the way around and you leave one side open and you put rope through that and you stuff it with straw and you sleep on it. When the straw gets all matted down, you throw that away and put more straw in it. Then they gave me a cover and I swear it was that thick and it felt so good. (01:12:41) The next morning I had breakfast and about 10:00 the other guys came over there. I have some pictures of us on this ship that I should have brought along. We’re waving to everybody as we leave. They took us to this Brit, who later on became a good friend, and he came to America and we were good friends until his death about five years ago. We went around the island, down the beach, got on a C-47, flew back to Italy, had to do through a check at the hospital and five days later we are back over Germany. I figure the logic behind that was to get you back over that before you lose your cool. Interviewer: ―Did you have very many missions after that?‖ That was mission number five and from then on I flew with my own crew. I felt more comfortable then because I knew the men and I had a total of 23, so I had 18 more missions. We flew northern Italy, northern Yugoslavia, Bratislava, Czechoslovakia Munich, Linz as I remember, Steiger, St. Valentines, Vienna a couple three times, Hungary that one time we couldn’t drop the bomb that way that time. We couldn’t see the target. We had to carry that bomb home. (01:14:01) That was the difference, usually when you land you’re empty and you got little or no gas left, your bomb load is gone so you know how to land because that is the way you have been landing this plane all along, but if you got a heavy bomb load in there and you come in I thought, ―Boy you got to bring this thing in low‖, and I almost greased it. I think I was within two feet of the runway when I pulled the throttle back and it really hit hard. It wasn’t my fault, it was just that—and of course those bombs, just for the record, when we took off those bombs were not activated and when we landed they weren’t activated. What you did was—they had a little propeller in the front and they had a little wire through them so it couldn’t turn and as long as that wire was in there and you crashed, we had plenty of planes that crashed, the bomb wouldn’t burst unless it broke up on the ground. (01:14:51) So, when you got ready to drop them you had that wire out and if you 20 �brought them back, you had the wire back in, but just the idea that it’s back there is not the most comforting thought though. Interviewer: ―Give me an idea of—I’m not, I hope I’m not being callous here, you get up in the morning to go on another mission, you’ve got a crew of people at you’re responsible for, you know you’re going into danger—first mission, second mission you have to bail out at one point and after that you still have many missions to go. Does it become ritual? Does it become rote? Or is it that you are constantly on, are you worried about things or are you on automatic pilot? I’m trying to get a sense of what the experiences of going one mission and then another mission and another mission, it’s not like you got an end in sight, you’re going on these missions and people are being shot down.‖ Our objective was to get 35 missions in and whatever guy got 35, we celebrated and he could go home. Of course that’s what we were all hoping for, but then as the war went on we had more and more guys and more and more planes. We would put up the 15th Air Force on an all out day about 1500 planes. Normally it was about 1,000 and so you hoped that you would get your 35 in, but as the war went on and after our troops made the landing, they did that after we got over there, on the beaches of Normandy, but we’re fighting and it looks like we’re going to win, so we just said, ―Will we get done or not?‖ I think the test was near the target, you remained pretty well relaxed, you weren’t allowed to talk to one plane or another, you could talk within the plane and you had what we call an oxygen check about every ten minutes. (01:16:55) The problem was, you had to have oxygen. These planes were not pressurized and the way we kept our warmth is we had electric gloves and pants and jacket and they hooked that into the plane. We also had to have oxygen because we’re flying, you know, 22-24 thousand feet, so if you got disconnected from the oxygen , you could easily pass out and in the time I was there, I can only remember a couple that died that way. That was the idea of the oxygen check, you’re supposed to do it every so many minutes. (01:17:32) It wasn’t my responsibility, it was one of the crew members and if somebody didn’t do it and the guy was without oxygen long enough, that was it. Interviewer: ―So really, from my understanding is that you had enough routine things that had to be done before you got to target, but once you got to the target, you didn’t have control anymore? You were going to be shot at, you had control, but not the same kind of control you had getting up there?‖ You got control, you want to stay with your lead plane, you stay close and you don’t do any maneuvering at all as you get near the target. Later on as you are coming back home you might move out and you don’t have to be so careful, but the closer you get to the target, that’s where the stress is and a lot of prayers and when you saw a guy go down the first thing you do is get on the intercom and shout, ―Count the parachutes, count the parachutes.‖ You hope for ten and you didn’t always see ten. The problem with getting shot down is that say the plane loses a wing and starts into a spin, the chances of getting out are almost nil because it forces you up against the wall of the plane, so you prayed that you wouldn’t get into a gyro like that and have to go down with it. (01:18:56) If you bailed out you had a pretty good chance—I talked to two guys that bailed out, one broke his ankle, but he could still walk and they come down from the mountain in Germany and get a farmer and the farmer tells them to follow him into town and they 21 �near the town and here comes out a policeman and he tells them to kneel down and he puts his gun to their head like this and he pulls the trigger and it goes ―click, click‖ and he looks at it , points it in the air and ―Bang‖, and then the farmer says, ―Nix, nix.‖ You’re not supposed to kill an innocent—we’re enemies and he was a prisoner, but you’re not supposed to kill a prisoner. That was a guy that I knew, but I found this out long after the war. (01:19:46) The worst part when you bailed out was the fear that you would get shot from the ground or sometimes by a fighter plane. Last fall we had out annual reunion and we had about 150 guys there, this was of the bomb group and I had them sign in as a testimonial to the Tuskegee Airmen. I said, ―If you want to leave a message, I would like to know your name, what you remember and your message.‖ One guy said, ―Thanks for saving my life twice.‖ One guy said, ―thanks for saving my life, they were going to shoot me because I was in a parachute coming down in Austria and the German Messerschmitt was after me and you chased him off.‖ Messages like that. Interviewer: ‖I read every one of them because you gave me a copy. It was very moving.‖ That’s right, I gave you a copy. I wish I had thought of that, it should have been done 60 years ago. There is still the problem of racial. When we got out of the war we didn’t know any blacks. These guys saved out lives, but we weren’t supposed to mingle with them. Ridiculous. (01:20:55) Interviewer: ―To touch upon that, were you aware of, within your group, not just your crew, the group of people that you were around, initially there was a shift that went from, they didn’t want the Tuskegee airmen in there because they didn’t think they were competent, to the point that they were being asked to be on missions. Were you aware of that?‖ No, we were not aware of that, but it became apparent. We heard a little bit, but they kept those things quiet. I only know of one guy who met the Tuskegee Airmen before he went overseas and he was in Montgomery Alabama and he said that he knew the Chaplain real well and the chaplain took him down there and he met a few guys. He is the only man in all of my life—then I know of another guy who met one overseas, probably in town, but these guys, their bases weren’t near ours. They could be much closer up north because they didn’t have to fly as far. They didn’t have to get up when we did. We had to get things formulated and they just had to take off and fly. (01:21:58) they were very dedicated guys and I’ll tell ya, they had ―Red Tails‖ P51’s, a single engine plane, I think and most people think was the best fighter plane the U.S. had and they had red tails. That’s what they were distinguished by and they did one heck of a job. Interviewer: ―I think it’s commendable that you’ve made an effort to not only contact them, but you’re now a member of the Tuskegee Association.‖ Well, that came about; I have to tell you about it. I met one of them about six years ago and we became friends, he lives in Detroit, and I said, ―Dick, how many missions did you make?‖ He said, ―Eighteen and a half.‖ I Said, ― What do you mean eighteen and a half?‖ He said, ―I didn’t get back from the last one.‖ I said, ―Were you a P.O.W.?‖ He said, ―Yes, I remember waking up in this plowed field, I bailed out at low altitude. I was strafing in southern France and I had a broken leg and I’m lying in this muddy field that 22 �had been plowed and that helped. They healed my leg and they put me in prison.‖ I said, ―How many people were in that?‖ He said, ―Over ten thousand. Airmen, almost all of them were Airmen.‖ I said, ―How many were black?‖ He said, ―Seven.‖ I said, ―Only seven? How did your American officers treat you in the P.O.W. camp?‖ He didn’t answer me right away and then he said, ―Let’s put it this way, the German guards treated us better than our own fellow officers.‖ You can almost cry at that because these guys were risking their lives just like we were. (01:23:43) As I got to know these people and I went to a couple of their dinners down in Detroit, they are different than our group. We either charge no dues or charge $10.00 just to get the bulletins. They charge $85.00 a year. I said, ―What do you do with the money?‖ He said, ―Well, we have a program out at the Detroit city airport. We have four training planes and if a kid wants to learn to fly, we teach him to fly. We sponsor ROTC in the Detroit high schools because our kids need discipline.‖ They’re talking about black kids. He said, ―If they learn to fly and they like flying and they want to go on to become a commercial pilot, we’ll put them of to Western Michigan University at their flying school over there.‖ Last fall they got 30 new planes and I had no idea the program was that large, but WMU got 30 new planes for training. I said, ―Dick, how long have you been doing that?‖ He said, ―Oh, quite a while, some guys have gone through the program and become commercial airline pilots and retired. We started in the early 50’s.‖ They don’t tell anybody this and this is something so positive. I said, ―I would like to join an outfit like that.‖ To my knowledge, I’m the only white member of the Detroit chapter. (01:24:57) I carry my membership with me as a matter of fact. Here it is. I’m very proud of that. It is interesting to see that somebody—they are leaving a legacy and let me tell you what is happening to my two groups. I belong with these guys that all learned to fly at Douglas, Georgia in these little puddle jumpers with open cockpits, different classes, but we have that in common and we’ve got a carload of memorabilia and thank god we got a place, they finally put together a museum there and were going to take it down there, but the other group, which is all the people that flew in the 454th in Italy, a much larger group, we got carloads of stuff and nobody knows where to put it. There’s a legacy, but there is no legacy. These guys are leaving a continuing legacy because anybody who wants to support their ideas can join their group. We hold ours to members or their widows they have a great idea. Interviewer “I had the honor of meeting the Southern California Chapter of the Tuskegee Airmen because of my documentary on the Flying Tigers, I would go to air shows and hawk my product and I would be there with the Flying Tigers and there would be the Tuskegee airmen and the Navaho Code Talkers. For a period of about three years I had a chance to sit next to them and talk to them and my great honor with them is that I have a picture that was in their newsletter of me handing a copy of the Flying Tigers to the head of their organization in southern California and having them hand a copy of the Tuskegee airmen to me, so we were shaking hands and I still have that and I am very proud of that?‖ Interviewer: “I want to wind up with the first of all you were mentioning earlier that you figured that America was winning the was. Was there a point when you realized it was ending? Did it come at V-E day or did you actually see that it was ending very soon?‖ (01:27:15) 23 �I think we realized it. To become a Captain at that time, I was now a first Lieutenant and I had been there six months and to become a captain one of the requirements is that you had to lead a mission and they said, ―You’re ready and we’re going to schedule you.‖ I think the date was the 5th of May. Well, in April you’re having fewer flights, you’re reading that we’re advancing our troops and we think the end of the war is pretty close. We still lost guys on the very last mission, but anyway that flight that I was supposed to lead never went because we were winning the war. The war was over as I remember it the 10th or 12th of May. So, I never made that mission and I guess philosophically I would rather be a live Lieutenant than a dead Captain. (01:28:14) We realized it because there were fewer flights, they were less intense, we lost fewer planes and we had brought Germany to her knees by cutting off her fuel. Interviewer: ―What happened on the announcement of victory in Europe?‖ The camp went wild. I think there were some contrived fireworks, I don’t know where the beer came from, but there was a big party. We were ecstatic. It’s over, it’s over, it’s over. Then you got bored because you had nothing to do, so about a week or ten days later I got a letter from my friend Jack Daverin, who just died about a month ago, less than that, two weeks ago, and Jack was on a Red Cross ship. He was in the Army, but that was his job, going back and forth bringing back people who are injured. He had written to me three weeks earlier and said, ―I’m headed for Europe.‖ I thought he was giving me a message and I went down to one of my Captains and I told him my men were getting a little anxious and that I would like to take them out for a little gunnery practice, he said to take a plane, the war is over, so we go out and we shoot a few gunnery practices and then we flew over to Naples and we got binoculars with us and sure enough there’s his plane sitting in the harbor, so I go back and put the plane down and the next day I hitch hiked over there and he gave me some steak. Now, it’s three weeks old, but it was steak and he gave me some milk and that was three weeks old. I don’t know how they kept it, it wasn’t the best, but it was the first I’d had in a long time. We spent a night together and that was a great experience. (01:30:08) You did some stupid things too, I remember we’re cruising along, I don’t know if it was that flight or another one, we’re cruising along the shoreline watching everybody on shore, just looking. You’re supposed to be flying the plane and it’s awfully easy to get distracted, so I’m glad nothing happened. I could’ve easily, and some guys did, they got too low and ―Bingo.‖ Interviewer: ―Was there any talk about going to Japan?‖ All of us thought we were going to Japan. We flew back from southern Italy, the end of June we flew to Marrakech Africa, from Marrakech we flew to the Azores and the Azores were socked in. there are a few island around the mountains and the main runway was 11,000 feet long and it’s socked in and we’re coming in on radio. You have signals like this one is dod-dit and this one is dod-dit and in-between it buzzes and that’s the best thing you had for landing, but you didn’t know if you were on that side of the landing field or that side, so we’re in a storm and it’s raining like mad and we let down and I got nine guys with me and their all looking on and we get down to 300 feet and we finally saw water and all of a sudden we see a wall in front of us and it’s too late to turn either way, so what I did is bring it up and right there’s the runway. (01:31:43) I was about 200 feet below the runway. I have since talked to a guy who was there and I knew him for 24 �two years in the Air Corps and he said, ―Don, you weren’t the only one, that happened more than once. What a sigh of relief, it’s got to be there I hope. The first thing we did by the way and I haven’t asked this in a long time, but ―What do you think we asked for?‖ Interviewer: “Milk?‖ Milk and ice cream, those two things are what we wanted, we didn’t want no beer, we wanted milk and especially ice cream. I think everyone had two malted milks. Interviewer: “It was a taste of home.‖ A taste of home and from there we flew to Gander Newfoundland and from there to Westover Field where we parked our planes and they kept flying them out to Arizona where they put them in a row out there and let them set there for years and years. (01:32:36) We didn’t know that because we thought we were going to Japan. We get processed, we get on a train and there’s 13 cars in the train, the last one is not a sleeper, all the other 12 are sleepers, it takes off and it takes most of the day to get to Chicago, they let the last car off and the other 12 went to Seattle and I’m in the last car. It’s 3:00 Friday afternoon and I’m going through processing and this guy is looking at my stuff and he said, ―Sir, you can get out.‖ I said, ―Get out?‖ He said, ―Ya, you got all these points.‖ I said, ―Let’s do it.‖ He said, ―Oh no, I can’t do it today.‖ I said, ―Why?‖ He said, ―Haven’t got enough time. I’ll give you a three week leave and you come back and we’ll process your discharge.‖ I stood there for a minute and I said, ―Sergeant, what would happen if I stayed over the week-end?‖ He said, ―We would discharge you on Monday.‖ I said, ―I’ll be here.‖ (01:33:28) I thought as long as I could get out I’d had enough. I stayed overnight and the following Monday after discharge, I got home. Interviewer: ―Had you been communicating with your family on a regular basis?‖ One sister in particular and my mother and my dad would write. When my dad would write, he wrote a good letter. I doubt that he wrote more than six the whole time, but usually it was a long letter and then a few friends, guys that I knew that were in various parts of the world and you know every now and then you would get one that they had censored. Interviewer: ―Did you get the black mark or did you get the cut out?‖ Both types. But that’s what you had to do. I have a friend, who his first duty got overseas and they said, ―You’re going to censor these letters.‖ And he said, ―I’ve never done that.‖ He is still living. He is in Naples and he said, ―I have never done that.‖ And the guy said, ―Oh, you know what it’s all about.‖ This is December--November of 1944, and he said, ―I had to sit there and decide--.‖ By that time they had relaxed the rules, but they still had that idea. (01:34:44) Interviewer: ―So, when you left Chicago after being discharges, did V-J day happen anytime during that period?‖ I’m still in uniform and this is funny, I had an aunt and she was a nun, a Carmelite nun in Detroit and her duty in life, she had done this since she was in her 20’s, she was cloistered, whish means all they did was pray, and she was my godmother also, and so I decided to go down and visit her and thank her for her prayers etc., so I stayed over in 25 �Detroit and the next day was V-J Day. That’s where you want to be on V-J Day. I never got so many kisses by so many different women in all my life. I don’t know if I could go through that again or not. I have no complaints. (01:35:34) You walked down Woodward Avenue and they would grab you and hug you and you see the good thing was, I had my uniform on. They didn’t know that I was technically home for final discharge. I had a few more days to go, but it was a good place to be at the right time. Interviewer: ―The country celebrated, it was an outpouring of joy like you had not seen before?‖ Oh, I tell ya, it went on for a couple of days you know, but it was an outpouring of joy, I don’t know if anybody got any sleep that night, all I can remember in Detroit was the celebration and things being thrown out of windows. That was one of the things that worried me. I think somebody was drunk up there, but I had a wastepaper basket half full of water that landed two feet from me and I thought, ―Holy cats, what are we trying to do?‖ People do stupid things under those circumstances, but it was wonderful, the newspapers, I don’t know if I have any newspapers from that day, I should have. I probably do, I got a lot of things I haven’t got time to go through. When I get old, I’ll go through those. (01:36:39) Interviewer: ―For our final questions, there are actually two of them, One is and with as much detail as you can, and keep in mind that this is for your grand children who never met your parents, I would imagine. What was the experience, and you can be as emotional as you want, what was the experience of coming home safe, uninjured, in your uniform. You have done your duty for your country?‖ The grand children met my mother. You have a feeling of gratitude that you survived, you inquire again about the guys that didn’t make it, the guys who are missing in action. It is so good and you take off your uniform and you put on civilian clothes, you take the car if you have one, I didn’t, but my dad had one, or you take the pick-up and you go and visit your friends and you stop at the local tavern and you talk to anybody. (01:37:50) Everybody wants to talk to you. As I say, I didn’t drink in those days, I learned that later on and fortunately it never took over, but visiting friends. I got out in August and I could have gone to college that fall, but I thought, ―Hey, I got to have a little time.‖ I hitch hiked to Detroit and talked to the University of Detroit, I went over to Michigan State College, I hitch hiked over there and talked to the people over there and then I thought, ―Well, I’ll wait until next semester.‖ Then my dad wanted me to go deer hunting with him up north and I had never done that, I went small game hunting and worked on the farm and just tried to get back and relax and kind of put it out of your mind, but I remember the Blue Star Mothers and the Gold Star Mothers with the little—it was almost this size, a little bit smaller than that and the gold stars meant they had lost a son in service and the blue star was for having a son in service. (01:38:48) They put those in the windows and some people had 2,3 or 4 of those in the window. My mother was very active in the Blue Star Mothers and they were a fraternity you might say, they would meet and they would tell stories and my I wrote a letter one time about that experience of us bailing out and that got in the paper. I didn’t plan that or I would have written it a little bit better I guess. (01:39:15) 26 �Interviewer: ―Let me just get one more question in. Looking back on the experience you had in the military and I don’t mean just combat, I mean the whole experience of being in the military, how did that effect the person that you are today? How did it influence the person you are today?‖ Fortunately I came from a disciplined family, but I remember a lot of guys didn’t, but I think we had more discipline in our schools, I know we did in those days, and the guys that couldn’t knuckle under, they did things to you that you wouldn’t want done. I mean they made you drill when you didn’t want to drill. You might be dead tired and you still had to do thing. You had to do push-ups etc. A few guys rebelled, but they got weeded out. It got to a point where, now your getting near being an officer and a pilot and if they didn’t think you were good leadership material or a good pilot, they would call you a flight officer and that means that you could fly the plane, but you wouldn’t be the commander. Well, this one guy, a friend of mine was a flight officer and I thought, ―Gee, I like him etc.‖ We were flying B-24’s and he and I went up one day with just the crew chief and we’re practice flying and we went out and we did instrument flying etc. and we came back and there was a heavy cross wind and were going 90 degrees due east on this runway with this heavy crosswind and he’s flying. We got down on the ground, were in a crab like this, you had to in order to stay even and he gets within 40 feet of the ground and he panics. He gives it full throttle and he said, ―I can’t land this darn thing.‖ I said, ―Take it up, I’ll land it.‖ We circled around, came in on the same runway, got within a few feet, kicked the rudder real hard and the plane swung around and down we went. I thought afterwards, ―Now here’s a guy who panicked when the chips were down, when he had to make a decision.‖ Then I knew why he was not the commander, a nice guy, but you had to learn to make decisions and you had to do a lot of this stuff in advance and that is why they taught you—you didn’t ever practice parachuting, but you got out forward, the way the plane is going, so you get away from the plane. (01:41:35) You don’t pull your ripcord until you count ten and things like that and a lot of rules. It taught me a lot. I teach kids these days that if you’re going down a two lane highway and there’s a guy coming for you and all of a sudden there’s a guy in your lane, your job is to get off before he does and you hit him, you get to that shoulder. I’ve had to do that twice and the funny part of it was that it was within a mile, but it was going in different directions over near Ionia. One time the guy was drunk and the other time it was a farmer and I don’t know what he was doing, but he was passing and it was all fog. My point is it taught me to plan my life a little better, be prepared; I would like to think that a lot of the good things that have happened to me is because of that discipline. You have to—life is getting a hold of yourself, life is attitude. This is a B-24, I don’t care what kind of plane it is-- this would the kind that I flew. Here’s a plane it’s got four propellers and it’s got power. It’s loaded with gas and if I had the right attitude that plane is going to go up, but if I have the wrong attitude, it’s going to go down. The same is true of life. If we have a bad attitude, if we always think it’s going to go wrong, you know, I have had people—I know a lady, a nice lady and if you have a cold, she has a cold, if somebody’s got the flue, she is sure she has the flue. They always think about the worst. I was fortunately taught the other way. You think about the best. (01:43:09) I’ll just go into a quickie, because all of a sudden I see this thing over here. This story was written by the fourteen year old boy who I saved my life and so I brought him over—he was now sixty and his wife is now sixty, they are both teachers, his daughter thirty was a teacher, his son 27 �twenty eight went to work for Avis. I brought him over here in 1990 as my guests, took them all around Michigan, three weeks, Niagara Falls, Toronto, New York, Washington D.C. The boy and his sister could speak English fairly well. Two years later the Bosnian War breaks out and Vinko writes to me and says, ―Don, my son was in the army, they want him to go back in, I want you to bring him to the United States, I don’t want him to go back and get killed.‖ I thought, ―Ok I’ll bring him over here.‖ But then I talked to my friend Vahid, from Detroit, a very bright guy who has been over here since 1986 and an American citizen now and he said, ―Don, don’t do it.‖ I said, ―Why?‖ and he said, ― He doesn’t have an education and he is going to be flipping homburgs and be a very unhappy man.‖ I said, ―That makes sense.‖ (01:44:22) All of a sudden the thought struck me, and I swear to god it came from him and I appreciate that, now this kid is thirty years old, single, handsome, he could dive forty feet to spear a fish without a lung or anything, he can speak English, he has been to the United States, lets get him a job in the U.S. Embassy in Zagreb and Paul Henry was our congressman at the time and Paul helped me do that. He want in as a guard and within two years he is in charge of the motor pool and within five years he is in charge of not only the motor pool, but also the distribution of relief supplies. I talked to him in November and he is still doing that. (01:44:58) This has been fourteen years. Interviewer: “I think that is a great place to stop. I really appreciate this Don, I have been looking forward to this for a long time and I hope it wasn’t too much of an ordeal.‖ It was an ordeal for you. (01:45:15) 28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JandernoaD Title A name given to the resource Jandernoa, Donald (Interview transcript and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jandernoa, Donald Description An account of the resource Donald Jandernoa served in the Army Air Corps from 1943 to 1945. He trained as a B-24 pilot and flew missions for the 15th Air Force, based in Italy, in the later stages of the war. He describes the training process and his combat experiences in detail, including a mission on which he and his crew had to bail out along the Yugoslav coast and were rescued by local villagers. He also discusses the role of the Tuskegee airmen in protecting his unit. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-03-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c090eb8f93704e8e980b0917bd6c5dc1.mp4 577664d50e4eba78641701fe857d65e1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f7e5d2f9c02a6fe59fff288630f2d9c.pdf eab4a7e27057cfd7545da2cfd225c865 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Steven Janicki (00:20:15) Transcribed by: Joan Raymer July 13, 2007 Interviewer: “Steve, can you give your name and where you were born?” Steven Anthony Janicki, I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on February 4, 1924. Interviewer: “Where did you go to school and what was your early schooling like?” I was going to Sacred heart School on Grand Rapids, from the first grade to the ninth grade. From there I went to Davis Tech for the tenth grade period. Interviewer: “Right about this time how old were you when you went to Davis Tech to school?” Tenth grade, I was 16 years old and I went to school for one month in September. Interviewer: “Who were some of the guys you were hanging around with, and what age were they?” Bob Norton, Earl Williams, Bob Stevens, they were all 17 or 18 years old. They were going to Union High School and they belonged to the National Guard. Interviewer: “Was this something that appealed to you?” Not really, a lot of my friends that I hung around with, they went to CC Camp, because times were pretty tough and that the only place where they could go more or less to get a job. 2:32 The government fed them and gave them a little spending money, which they sent home. Interviewer: What was CC Camp?” The Civilian Conservation Corps. They went up north and planted trees in the forests and that’s about what that amounted to. Interviewer: “ Lets begin here, when did you start thinking about the National Guard?” I think maybe in July, because the fellas I told ya I was hanging around with, they were in the National Guard getting ready to go to Camp Grayling for 2 weeks and to me camp sounded pretty good. They had a Lake Marguerite at Camp Grayling where they could go swimming and the government fed them and gave them clothes and I thought that was a pretty good deal, but I was only 16 and when they did get back from camp they were telling me how great it was and how much fun they had and boy I thought that was the best thing that ever happened to anybody, so that’s when I started thinking about getting into the National Guard. 3:43 They also told me that there was a swimming pool at the armory and if I signed up or got in, I could use the swimming pool any time I wanted to. And for an indoor pool at that time, man, that was a luxury and a half. 4:02 They finally got me in there –I signed up on October 12, 1940 that was on a Friday and the fellas that 1 �helped me get in, they figured if I signed up on a Friday then once I signed the papers, Saturday and Sunday came along and nobody bothered about it because they all wanted the week-end off so, I was in. So I did, I signed up on Friday and I figured I was in and by Monday morning we were mobilized. 4:38 So there was no way they were going to kick me out because they were short on members, men and I think they were glad to have people come in. They never checked me; they never worried about my age. Interviewer: “What was the reaction of your family that you were joining up?” It kind of went over their head. I don’t think they realized what was happening. There was no response. It was hard times; it was still kind of depression like. Interviewer: “If you were 16 years old, did you look 16?” I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that one. I tried to—you know, I tried to act big. It’s like these kids today that try to go buy a bottle of beer, they’re 18 or 19 years old and they try to look 21 so I don’t know how to answer that one. 5:46 Interviewer: “So your mobilized, lets get a better idea of what that means, what does it mean to be mobilized?” Well, you went out of the Michigan National Guard into the United States Army, that’s what it amounted to. You were under now the Federal Government’s jurisdiction. We started training, they gave me some clothes that didn’t fit, shoes that didn’t fit and we used to go up to Lookout Park, that’s up off of Division Avenue and we use to train there, march, close order drill and the usual stuff. 6:33 I think we did that for a couple of weeks and they started making plans to ship out to Louisiana. Interviewer: “Now this is for more formal training or basic training?” Well, the close order drill is generally what the army or any military service does right from the beginning. It teaches you coordination as a group, but it was the basic training. 7:07 Interviewer: “So now you’re being gathered up to go to Louisiana and these friends, these are guys you grew up with in this group?” Yes. I was in the same company with the people I hung around with mostly, all except the older ones that were married or—anybody that was 19 or older, they were out of my class, to me they were like “old men”. 7:39 Interviewer: “So give us an idea of how many people we’re talking about, that part of your group.” I think maybe 80, give or take 5 or 10 guys. Interviewer: “So how did you get to Louisiana?” We went to the Union Station, we boarded trains, I was in the baggage car, I stayed with the baggage, and the rest of the fellas they were in day coaches. I think it took us, I don’t know, it’s hard to recollect, maybe 2 or 3 days, but we marched up Monroe Avenue and 2 �right down to the train station and boarded the train, I think we left towards evening, maybe 7 or 8 o’clock. 8:34 Interviewer: “Why were you in the baggage compartment?” We took the baggage and I dumped our stuff and everything, uniforms, blankets, all our equipment that was all thrown in the baggage car. Interviewer: “Why were you there instead of in front with the rest of the guys?” There were a few more with me, the lowly ones, I was a “dog face”, they didn’t call them “dog faces” then, but that’s what you were considered, the “lowly one”. Interviewer: “So you arrive in Louisiana, describe what you found for us when you got there.” Well, we got out there and we got on some trucks and I think we went to Camp Beauregard and it was hot and we had OD clothes on, which are olive drab, woolen clothes and it was hot. I remember going into camp, they had tents up and I think there were 8 men to a tent. So, I think it was each squad had there own tent and we put all our equipment in there and that’s where it all became. 9:52 Interviewer: “Now this squad you’re referring to once again, are these your close friends that you grew up with?” No, no, There was only maybe one of them that I grew up with, the others were in different squads, maybe in the next tent or 2 tents down, but after a little bit you got to know everybody. Interviewer: “ Now just so—especially considering that this is so close to home, here in Grand Rapids, the guys that are in the tent next to you, maybe you didn’t know in grand Rapids, when you started to talk to tem, you found out what street they lived on, these were all Grand Rapids people, right?” All Grand Rapids people, ya, boy it’s kind of hard to recollect what we talked about. 10:41 Interviewer: “Just thinking as your getting to know people and they ask, “where are you from?” and you say, “I’m from Monroe Avenue or I was on Kalamazoo Avenue—I guess what I’m trying to get across is that during this period of training, you became good friends with these guys?” Right and I think the first thing you ask them was, “where did you go to school?” and it varied, some of them went to Creston, some of them went to Davis Tech, some of them went to Union High School, those that went to Union High School, our commanding officer was one of their teachers and I think that’s the reason they got into the National Guard and that was Captain Merl Howe. 11:30 Some of them went to South and Ottawa. Interviewer: “ So, your now in Louisiana, your in a squad, you’ve got a tent, give us an idea what your daily routine was like during the first stages of your training.” 3 �Well, you woke up in the morning at 5:30 and you had to fall out for roll call and after that you went back in your tent and you made up your bunk and cleaned up out in the bath house, you washed, I can’t say shave because I didn’t shave. Interviewer: “ I was just going to say, you didn’t mention shaving.” 12:21 No, no, I didn’t shave, but you cleaned up and then you went back to your tent and you waited for the mess call and then we went to eat breakfast and after breakfast we had about a half an hour or so and then we fell out, the company and we had back packs, our rifles and we went out in the field to drill. 12:54 That was more or less normal for the time we were there. Interviewer: “How would you describe the training? What kind of training did you have?” Well, the training, it was more or less something based on what the officers went through in WWI, nothing about trenches, but you know you kind of ran and zigzagged as if somebody was shooting at you and we hid behind trees and you crawled on the ground, but that was basically about it. Interviewer: “Now we mentioned shaving earlier, I understand there was an incident in which the shaving was brought up, would you talk about that?” We had our first full field inspection and the Lieutenant came out and he stood right—he come up to you and he stood right in front of you and he would look you right in the face and he looked at me and I thought Oh, Oh, and he said to me, “when was the last time you shaved?” and that struck me so funny, I busted out laughing and he called me a few choice words and he put me on KP for a week, which is Kitchen Police, and I still thought that was pretty funny and he called my squad leader who was Adrian Bush and he told him to take this kid out to the bath house and teach him how to shave. 14:45 That’s when I knew I was accepted. I thought that was the greatest thing that ever happened to me, somebody taught me to learn how to shave. That was the beginning. Interviewer: “I take it though, you really didn’t need to shave at that age?” Well, I had “peach fuzz”, that’s what we called it, but I didn’t think I needed to shave, but I think they did. 15:12 Interviewer: “ So, after this basic training in Louisiana, where was your group sent from there?” Well, we were there until, I don’t remember the month we got there, but we were there until April and while we were there they were building up Camp Livingston and we went from Camp Beauregard to Camp Livingston which was actually much better than Beauregard. We had gas stoves in our tent, the tents were elevated off the ground, they had wood floors and there we got our first bunch of draftees. 16:00 People that were brought in on the first draft and most of them were from the Grand Rapids area, which made in pretty nice, because some of the fellas that came in there, I knew them from Grand Rapids, they lived on the West side where I lived and I knew the. I was very surprised and shocked to see they were drafted, those that came in. 4 �Interviewer: “I want to continue from there, but before we do there was an incident you referred to back at Camp Beauregard, you talked about one of the officers wanted you to build—asked if you were a carpenter or not.” Oh ya, the Lieutenant he came up and that was the same Lieutenant that told the Corporal to take me down and teach me how to shave. He asked me if I was a carpenter and I told him no and he said, “well you are now” and he wanted me to build him a clothes rack and I told him, I said, “I have no idea on how to build a clothes rack” and he said, “well, your going to learn”. 17:14 They had officers tents, one man officers tent and the poles in there must have been maybe 2 ½ inches in diameter so, I went to the Supply Sergeant and I told him I had to build a rack and I had no idea how to do it and he told me to get a plank and nail the plank to the post in the back of the tent and get a wire and put it from one end of the plank up around the post and down the other end, put some nails in that plank and that’s the clothes rack. 17:49 Well I did that and that night it rained and this Lieutenant he just got his brand new set of “pinks”, officers clothes and in Louisiana it is all mud and clay and that clothes rack fell down and again, he came out storming and called me a few choice names and he put me again on KP, but this time for 30 days and like I say, at that time I kind of figured that I was “accepted” so, I took at the way it was. 18:28 Interviewer: “So, where is the other camp that you went to? You said that you went to Beauregard then you went to?” We went to Beauregard to Camp Livingston and we were there for up until Pearl Harbor. Interviewer: “Where is Camp Livingston?” In Louisiana. Interviewer: “Louisiana—was there a difference in the training or the routine from Beauregard to Livingston?” No, the training was the same. Everything was based on what these officers went through in WWI. We didn’t have a lot of the equipment, we simulated Jeeps, we didn’t really know what a Jeep was. If you were going down and we were out in the field you know, some of the G.I.’s would pass ya and they would holler, “peep, peep, I’m a Jeep” you know, everything was simulated. 19:33 Some of the machine guns were simulated. We weren’t build up with equipment the way we should have been, but then nobody knew this was coming on, but everything was pretty much based on what these officers went through during WWI, minus the trenches. Interviewer: “Do you need some water?” Please. Interviewer: “All right, so were at Camp Livingston and you said that the training is still pretty much the same, WWI related tactics and whatnot, what happened on Pearl Harbor day? What was your reaction to that?” Well, the week before Pearl Harbor they had a convoy going to New Orleans so, anybody that wanted to go could go for the weekend, we left on a Friday and we were heading out to a school in New Orleans and one of the friends from our company, his dad lived in 5 �New Orleans so, we went in a convoy and we stayed at his place, he lived over an oyster house in the French Quarter, but we were there for the weekend and had a good time and then Sunday morning about noon, we were scheduled to go back to Camp Livingston, so we had to meet at the school and we got into these army trucks and a car pulled up behind us and a woman showed us papers saying, ”War Declared” and I don’t know where she got that, but I remember when we were going through the south there by these gas stations they used to have a little bird cage and they had a couple of spark plugs tied up in there and underneath they had a sign that said, “War Declared on Old Spark Plugs” and I thought it struck me kind of funny that she had this sign that said “War Declared’ and that was the first thought that come to mind. 21:46 and after that I ignored it and we never heard anything about it until we got back into Camp Livingston and we went to our tents and everybody running around camp and somebody was hollering that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor. 22:09 We got into our tent and our cots were gone, the mattresses were piled up in the tent, we were told to get our stuff and meet at the Company Street and we got into trucks and we went into, I don’t even remember the town, but we were guarding a lake that supplied the water to Barksdale Field and we were there for I think, a couple of weeks. At that time I drove a truck which took—I come back into camp and took the meals that were cooked at the camp over to the fellas at the lake and they ate and then I brought the stuff back and I’d be taking their meals to them. 23: 00 Interviewer: “Where did you learn to drive?’ At home, we had a 1927 Buick. My dad walked to work and he left the car home and at times I sneaked off and drove the car. Interviewer: “ Ok. I was just thinking, a 16 year old already driving a truck to the lake and back, that’s pretty amazing. What was the mood like amongst your group?” Quiet, somber, maybe a lot of guys were in deep thought. To me, I had no thought one way or another. To tell you the truth, I don’t think I could figure out what was going on. 23:50 I thought if anything, that we would be sent someplace to kind of stay in the country and never thought about leaving the country, that was the farthest thought from my mind. Interviewer: “Did you have any information about the devastation of Pearl Harbor? Did that have an effect, that a lot of American died there?” Not at that time, I don’t think we got too much of that. All we knew was that it was bombed and I don’t think it was really stressed, there wasn’t any TV or anything, everything we heard was over the radio and then when President Roosevelt got on the next day and he declared was on Japan and talked about a lot of devastation, a lot of killings and that was about it. 24:51 Interviewer: “So, you actually heard the speech live?” From Roosevelt, yes, on the radio and I remember him saying, “This day will live in infamy”. I think at that time he spoke to Congress and everybody was glued to the radio, but it was still far away. 25:14 I know it was our territory, but it wasn’t that close to home. 6 �Interviewer: “What was the next major change, where did you go from there?” Well, we were told that if we got foot lockers to send them home, which we did, we took them over someplace, I don’t remember where and they were going to ship them out for us and then we were going to Fort Devens, Massachussets, we were going to go—I thought we were going to go to Europe and a lot of the troops went by train. 26:02 I, with others, went in a convoy, we moved our trucks and I drove a truck with another fella by the name of Claire Earlywine, it was a gasoline truck, we were the last ones in the convoy and in case a truck ran out of gas, we supplied the gas, but we made a lot of stops between Alexandria Louisiana and Fort Devens and people along the way, when they saw us, they come out and they had cookies and milk and coffee, they were great. 26:44 We did get to Fort Devens and we stayed there for a while, I think it got pretty cold, I think I remember it snowing and then I think it was about February or March we moved out of there and we got on trains and we were heading out for California. 27:19 Interviewer: “Were you already formed into companies at that time?” All companies. Interviewer: “What Company were you in?” I was in company K, 126th Infantry. 27:36 Interviewer: “Where in California did you end up?” The Cow Palace, that is still there. I think that is the greatest trip I ever experienced. All the cars we traveled in were sleepers, we had Porters that lowered the berths, they did the berth for us, when we woke up in the morning they came back and they raised the berths up, they treated us like kings, that was quite an experience. 28:17 Interviewer: “Where in California did you end up?” San Francisco at the Cow Palace and we were there for, I don’t know, maybe a week. Interviewer: “It’s interesting because ending up on the West coast, was there any suspicion that maybe you weren’t going to go to Europe?” Well, we knew we weren’t going to go to Europe, but then again we didn’t know where we were going. 28:50 Europe was out of the question once we left Massachussets, going to California, I thought maybe we would more or less be guarding the coast and I had no idea we were going overseas. Interviewer: “So when did you find out you were going overseas and what was your reaction?” Well, we got on trucks and they took us to the pier and there was this luxury liner, the SS Lurline and man we looked at that and it was a huge ship. It was white, were the first troops that boarded it, there was still no talk about where we were going, but we knew we were going overseas, but as far as combat, I don’t think we give that much of a thought, because we didn’t know where we were going. 29:52 We could have been going to someplace that was out of the range of the Japanese or something, we never gave it a thought that we were going someplace that we were going to be fairly soon into combat. 7 �When we got on the Lauraline, man that was luxury. They still had civilian cooks on there, the swimming pool was drained of water and they put bunks up in there, our company, we slept on the fantail. 30:28 The food was out of this world, some of the guys had staterooms and it was really a luxury. Interviewer: “Now there is an ancient tradition crossing the International Date Line, did you go through any kind of a ceremony?” They had what they called initiation of going over the equator, we had King Neptune and we were shellbacks or pollywogs or something like that and once you got initiated you were—oh man, I can’t remember what they called it then, but we had guys that were walking around in grass skirts and they painted them, some of them had their hair shaved off their head, it was just really a crazy time, I think it was worse, I mean better, than Mardi Gras because when you have something like that when your on land or at home you don’t want to look like a complete idiot, but when your at sea and the only person that is going to see you is another guy, you don’t care what you look like, it was fun. 31:50 Interviewer: “So, what happened to you personally? What did they do to you?” Nothing, I was a bystander, I watched all of this. One of the guys that was in our tent, Frank Buise, he had all, his hair wasn’t shaved off, but it was zigzagged you know and he was a redhead and he looked like “Woody the Woodpecker”. You made fun of it, you joked of it, but after a couple days everything started getting back to normal. Interviewer: “How did you get out of this, you never crossed the equator before?” No, everybody wasn’t initiated, they didn’t have the time to—because there were so many troops on there, I don’t know how many thousands were on there, but there were quite a few. 32:37 To initiate each one of them would have taken, I don’t know, maybe a couple of days or so. Interviewer: “All right, so what about, this is your first time on a major ship or even a boat, what was your physical reaction to being on a boat for that long?” Well, I don’t know, I kind of enjoyed it, we would get out and you would see nothing but ocean and water and everybody seemed to have been in a, I don’t say a jovial mood, but it was a, I want to say, contained. 33:21 We did have our division orchestra on board ship and they played in the afternoon and in the evening, we had a fella that was a very good singer and I think his name was— I know his last name was Fisher and don’t get him mixed up with Eddie, I think his first name was Frank, in fact he just died maybe 4 or 5 years ago, but the going song at that time was “Tangerine” and of course the “Beer Barrel Polka” and we had some good entertainment. 33:59 That kind of took the worries off of everybody. Interviewer: “You know Bob Hartman talked about eating lemon drops because he was so seasick, did you have any reaction to seasickness?” A little bit, not too much, but some of the fellas in the bay when we left a harbor to get out into the open ocean, San Francisco bay was pretty rough and a lot of them got sick big time. I think I got maybe nauseated, but not to a point where I was really sick. 34:37 8 �Interviewer: “So, now where did you land?” Adelaide, the southern part of Australia, we landed there and people came out and they greeted us, people were very warm and friendly, of course they realized they needed us, we really went there to save them. We unloaded the ships, we went to camp, I don’t remember the name of the camp we went to, but that was our initial point and then from there we went to Brisbane and from Adelaide to Brisbane we had to change trains 3 different times. They had 3 different gauges of railroad, I think that’s the way the government operated, it was like going from Michigan to Ohio and the minute you hit the Ohio border, they had a different gauge railroad, you had to get off here, take off all your equipment and put it on the next train and go to that one and when you hit say Pennsylvania, you had to stop the train, get off, take your equipment and put it on another train because they had a different gauge railroad. 36:03 Interviewer: “By now you must realize your going into battle, you’re on foreign soil, did anybody tell you what you were going to do next?” No, no, we went into Brisbane and we did have some Australian officers come in and they were telling us about the way the Japanese operated, their experience with them, they told us about the Japanese tying themselves up in the trees, so that if you did walk into combat everything wasn’t on the ground, you had to be careful because they were up in the trees and even if you shot in the trees and killed one of them they wouldn’t fall out because they strapped themselves in, so that was something that had to be considered or thought about when we were going into combat. 37:08 Interviewer: “Now Steve, you’re training up to this point were WWI type tactics and now your entering into jungle conditions, did you have any clue what jungle conditions were going to look like?” No, not a thing, nothing at all, when we were in Brisbane all we had was some of the remarks that the Australians came in and told us about and they stressed that the Japanese are cunning, they’re ruthless, you had to be on the alert and realize that they are in trees. This was the initial point because when you go into combat you know, your scared and at the first burst of fire, your first thought comes that they are in front of you, but then again by them telling us, “you have to watch out for the trees” and everything else involved, your not going in there half cocked. 38:20 Interviewer: “So at this point in time, you’re in a totally different environment than Louisiana, where you issued any kind of clothes or camouflage for the jungle campaign?” They weren’t camouflage, we had, boy I’ll tell ya, I don’t even remember what we had now. Khakis maybe. Interviewer: “Well some of the guys had talked about some officer that had an idea about painting camouflage on.” It didn’t happen to us, it didn’t happen to us and I don’t know, I think we had dungarees, but I’m not quite sure, it doesn’t come to mind. 9 �Interviewer: “That’s all right. So where did you go from there? Oh, one other thing, I understand that the Australians that you were talking to actually had experience outside of the jungle, they were called “the rats of Tobruk” or something?” They fought in the middle east, they were in Tobruk and some of them did fight the Japanese and they came in—those that were in Tobruk and did fight the Japanese, their the ones that came and told us kind of what to expect because most of the Australian troops were still in the middle east. 39:56 They didn’t get home until sometime in 1943. Interviewer: “So, where did you go next?” We boarded liberty ships in Brisbane and the way I understand it, we were brought out into the Coral Sea as bait to try to draw the Japanese Navy out and our Navy engaged them in the battle of the Coral Sea as we were going towards Port Moresby, New Guinea, you could stand on the deck of the ship in the evening and see the reflections of the guns that were being fired in the sky. 40:46 Interviewer: “So, you arrived safely?” Well we had quite a storm in the Coral Sea, I’ve never seen a storm like this in all my life, we had a boat that was strapped down on the liberty ship, which I thought at the time was a yacht, but they called it a dingy I guess and there were a couple of soldiers sleeping in there and the wind pulled that boat right off the deck of the boat, pulled the bolts right off and the thing flew back maybe 5 or 6 miles and one of the other ships picked up the Australians that were in there, but it was quite an experience. 41:33 Interviewer: “So, where did you arrive?” Port Moresby. Interviewer: “What did you find there?” There wasn’t too much there, there were some G.I.’s there, but I don’t remember if they were ours or Australian. The first thing I remember as we were getting off the ship was there were a couple of bombers in the sky, but really, I don’t remember whether they were Japanese or they were our. 42:04 I think they were Japanese, but there was no firing going on and we moved from there to someplace about maybe 20 miles, I would say, north and west of Port Moresby. Interviewer: “At any time were you informed as to where you were going and what you would be doing?” Well, we knew we were going into combat, but we didn’t know how many troops we were facing, I don’t think anybody knew how many troops the Japanese had on the island, all I knew was that we were told that we’re going to have to take Buna and of course us being Americans you know, you figure well, were Americans, not going to be a bid problem, but we found out in a hurry that it would be. 43:07 Interview: “So how did you get to—were you marching on Buna at this point? What happened next?” No, after we got into a staging area, we were there I think a couple days and then they took us to the airport by truck and some of us flew about maybe halfway above the—into 10 �the Owen Stanley Mountains and we landed in a little airstrip there and from there on, we started trekking over the Owen Stanley Mountains. 43:44 Interviewer: “How was the weather?” The weather was hot, where we landed it was fairly decent, the clearing was pretty serene, but once we got out of that clearing and got into the jungle, the path towards Buna was maybe the width of a hand and a half or 2 feet or so. That is when we started running into rain, mud, the conditions started getting pretty rough. 44:17 Interviewer: “I’ve been in the jungle before, were there bugs and noises? Give us an idea of what it was like walking through there?” There were Macaws, what are they Parrots? Cockatoos, you hear all of that stuff, it’s kind of like what you see in a jungle movie, this is what you heard, the same sounds, but the deeper you got into the jungle, the Japanese where they were—we started coming in at one point and the Japanese were already in there and pushed back by the Australians, you didn’t hear too much of that anymore. 45:03 When we come into a village, the people knew we were coming, the natives, they moved their women right out of there and the kids, I think they were abused by the Japanese and they wanted no part of any outsider coming in so, they were out of the little villages, but we slogged through that stuff and then we got to a point to where, when your coming through the fields, it was nothing but mud and it rained every day at 3:00 in the afternoon and again at night about 11:00 and it was just indescribable, I don’t know how to put it, just mud, just plain mud. 45:48 Interviewer: “Now your climbing a hill or a mountain, so how do you, with all this equipment you got on and it’s muddy, you take a couple of steps up and what happens?” You take 2 steps up and you slide back about 50 feet, after a little bit you start taking your equipment and the stuff your pretty positive you’re not going to use, you start throwing it away. We took—the first thing I took off was the leggings, then you cut your pants off and you throw your razor away, you throw some of your other stuff away that you’re pretty sure you’re not going to need—mosquito bar, you throw that away, and after a few days, just before we hit the front line, some of the fellas started throwing away their rifles and their pistols, it was too heavy to carry. When we did finally get within 3 miles of the front line they realized that a lot of the equipment we had was gone, but they started airlifting it to us and by that time a lot of the guys were sick and they were sick big time. 47:04 Malaria, dengue fever, diarrhea, every imaginable disease that you would catch in a jungle, we started getting it. Interviewer: “So, what would happen to those soldiers that got sick?” Some of them that did get malaria, they were fortunate, they sent them back to a field hospital and they either sent them back to Australia and I understand some of them were sent back to the United States. 47:38 The others, once we got into the front line, we were desperate, we weren’t getting any replacements, unless you had a 105° fever or passed out, you stayed on the front line. 11 �Interviewer: “Before we get to the front line, let’s talk about how long did it take for you to get to the front line? Was it a couple days? Was it a week?” Oh, no, a couple weeks that I know of, a couple of weeks, I can’t give an exact amount. Interviewer: “I just want to get a general idea.” I would say a couple of weeks. Interviewer: “What were you eating?” They would drop us “bully beef”, which is corned beef, we had some I think “C” rations, they were little cans about that big, the best one was beans and hamburger. We did have some rice, they gave us—each of us had a handful of rice and they told us that when we stopped for the evening we could build a fire and we’d cook up our rice and we would share it, but you couldn’t built a fire because everything was saturated with water, so the rice didn’t do us any good. 49:03 The corned beef that they dropped us, a lot of guys got sick on it, it was actually putrid. Interviewer: “What about fruit? Bananas?” No, nothing like that. After a little bit we did see some banana trees, but they were all chopped down, not by machetes, but by machine gun fire, they were no fruits. 49:50 Interviewer: “So, when did you—what was your first indication that you were nearing the front lines? Did you hear machine gun fire? Did you hear guns? How did you know that you were right there at the front line?” Well, I don’t remember hearing any gun fire, if I’m not mistaken, I think we heard some artillery fire and we started walking—there was a clearing and when we got out of this clearing, we walked onto the jungle and we followed this path and then that’s when all hell broke lose. 50:38 That’s when we knew we were in big trouble. Some of the guys that walked in there never knew what hit them, we weren’t in there maybe 3 or 4 minutes and we lost quite a few guys, there was no screaming, no hollering, we were dumb founded, we didn’t know what to do, we actually didn’t know—we knew we were in a fight, but we didn’t know what was happening, we didn’t know which way to go, right or left, straight or back or whatever, but after a little bit we start thinking and we know were in big trouble. 51:30 So, we’re running for cover, we’re firing as we’re laying on the ground then you start realizing and thinking about what the Australians told ya, they’re not only in front of you, they’re above you, so you start shooting into the trees that are up, hoping you got some of them. At one time some of the Japanese would fire or they would shoot off fireworks and the fireworks would land behind you and that would scare the hell out of you because you didn’t know whether they were behind you, in front of you, it was quite an experience the first day. 52:16 Interviewer: “You know it’s hard to describe this kind of battle because if you were in Europe for example, you have an open field and you see guns ahead of you and you see the soldiers out, what was it like in your type of battle, could you see the guys to your right and your left, or in front of you, what was your field of vision like?” Limited, you could see somebody maybe 2 feet away, but the jungle was so overgrown that if they got about 4 feet away you had to make sure that it was them that you were— 12 �you knew they were on either side of you, but you weren’t sure, you had to be awfully careful that you didn’t lose your senses and shoot at anything that’s moving because after a little bit the least little movement, you’re raising your gun and your shooting. 53:12 Interviewer: “You know I have walked through the jungle many times, never in combat, but in the Boy Scouts and it can be a pretty noisy experience, tromping through—it’s not like you have a path there, so kind of give us an idea what the sounds were like at this time, did you hear rustling leaves around you and bullets going off, what’s going on?” You don’t hear so much of the rustling leaves, you hear the bullets going off, you hear some hollering, somebody would probably holler that it’s coming from the right or it’s coming from the left, so you kind of start shooting wherever the voice is coming from and then if your moving along you had to watch out because this was all swamp and if you stepped over say a log and you fell into a hole and you were in mud and water up to here, you’re wondering “how am I going to get out of this?” You certainly don’t want to let go of your rifle because that’s the only thing you got for protection. 54:15 You do, you turn around and you try to crawl back out and overall I would say it’s just instinct, you’re doing anything to keep yourself from getting killed and if you have to just dunk into your neck in this swamp and whatever, you do that to give yourself a push to get yourself up over the stump or whatever it is that’s laying there and then you’re—I don’t know how to finish that. 54:59 Interviewer: “Was there a point, you say in terms of instinct, was there a point where you could tell the difference between the sounds of their guns and your guns?” Well, their guns, you could tell if they were firing their rifles, the 25 caliber had kind of a snap to it, our guns had a hard bang, you could tell the difference between our rifles and their rifles, but when it came to the machine guns, the sounds were, I would say the same, you don’t pay no attention and all you knew was the machine guns were going off and you better duck someplace, you don’t know who’s firing, it could be them or us, but you were going to lay down and make doggone sure that you didn’t get it. 56:01 Interviewer: “What about things like hand grenades and mortar, what other kinds of weapons were being used?” Well, hand grenades, I don’t think we used hand grenades because we couldn’t see the enemy. We didn’t know where to throw them. I do understand that some guys would throw a grenade if they did see the Japs wherever they were and the Jap would pick it up and throw it back at them. I haven’t seen it, I haven’t done it, I don’t know. Interviewer: “Did you ever see a Japanese?” A couple of them, I saw them and you shoot and they’re not there no more. Interviewer: “Did you ever-- at some point, the battle either wound down or ended, how did it end?” It was quiet and all your doing is, your starting to move forward and you’re just wondering when is the next one going to start, because you’re always, you know that this one here was a little experience, but what are you going to hit on the next one, because they regroup also and they were wise in their ways, so each one ahead was going to be a little bit stronger than this one. 57:37 13 �Interviewer: “Now how were you organized at this time and was there a Sergeant or Lieutenant that come upon you and said we’re moving in this direction?” No, you would hear the Lieutenants say “we’re coming this way” or “we’re going that way” so you followed his voice, but there were no groups, I mean once it started you were kind of more or less on your own, you knew where the other guys were, but there was no regrouping and saying, were going here or were going there. I remember one time towards evening, the lieutenant came up and he said that a squad killed an officer and they left him there and he wanted 3 or 4 fellas to go down and guard this, it was a Japanese officer, so he sent 3 or 4 of us out and we thought this Lieutenant was crazy, we’re going to go guard a Japanese officer that was dead, but we were told that they do come back and do bury their officers, so when we got there, this officer was laying there and we stood there and looked at him and the guy said, “hey, to hell with him, he’s dead, we’re not staying here leaving ourselves wide open”, so we went back and the Lieutenant says,” well, was he taken care of? ”. We said, “ya”, and he said, “What happened to him?” We said, “we don’t know what happened to him, he was gone”, and we let it go at that. 59:22 Interviewer: “So, when nightfall came, what happened?” You dug a foxhole and you got in the foxhole and you stayed there. You didn’t dare move because if you moved, even your own men, not knowing who you were, would fire and then when you were in a foxhole, as long as the tide was out you were ok, but the minute the tide came in, the water from underneath came up into that foxhole and you’re laying in that water and mud too, so it was pretty rough. 59:57 Interviewer: “What kind of clothes were you wearing at this time? Was it cold or was it hot at night? What was it like?” The clothes we had on was what we left Port Moresby with, I would say they were dungarees or uh, mostly dungarees. 0:20 It wasn’t cold, but it did get cold when it rained. It was cold during the night, but not to a point where it’s freezing, very uncomfortable, but then in the morning when the sun came out you dried out in no time at all, it got pretty hot. 0:39 Interviewer: “So, did you have to dry your sox or anything like that?” No they rotted off of you, you didn’t worry about them. Your clothes actually started rotting off of you. At the last I did contact malaria, I passed out and I remember waking up in a field hospital on Townsville, Australia. They tell me that I was out for maybe 2 weeks. I did leave the front line with a 105° fever and if it was less than that you couldn’t leave. 1:26 I woke up in the hospital in Townsville and I’m sure when I left them it was the first part of January 1943. After a little bit in the hospital in Townsville, they sent me down to Sidney. I was in Sidney for a while and then I joined the 32nd again in New Castle, we were there taking boat training landing and after a while there I ended up back in the hospital with malaria and I don’t know how long I was in then. 2:21 After I got out, I was going to join our outfit back and they went up into New Guinea into Saidor. I didn’t join them there, I ended up back in the hospital, I must have been in and out of the hospital in Sidney for about a year’s time off and on. 2:46 14 �Interviewer: “A lot of people are not going to know what it’s like to have malaria, but describe the actual malaria, what it did to your body.” Malaria, when you get malaria you’ve got a 105 or whatever fever you got, you’re sweating, you’re clothes are saturated, you’re soaking wet and you’re freezing to death. 3:11 They’ll put blankets on you, they’ll put 10,12,15 blankets on you and it makes no difference, you’re freezing to death and all of a sudden you’re so hot, you have to take these covers off and you’re sweating and before you know, you’re getting delirious. Between sweating and freezing and delirium, you pass out and how they bring you to, I don’t know. 3:38 Interviewer: “So, over a period of time, you’re in bed, you recover and they take you out of the hospital.” Right. Interviewer: “You said in and out of hospitals.” In-between time, they put you—I was put in a base section outfit in Sydney. It was a dog track, they use to run Greyhound dogs there and a lot of these people that were in there, they worked in the offices for the government, they were all G.I.’s, they worked in the offices in Sidney, some of them worked in the motor pool, some of them were in transportation, they drove officers around, they drove visiting dignitaries and after a little bit, they put me in the motor pool and I worked in a part where they painted the automobiles, if they had an accident with them, they had a body shop and the guys repaired the things and we re-painted them olive drab. 4:46 Between that and back and forth to the hospital, back here and back there, it was kind of a regular routine, you would work for a while and you got sick and ended up in the hospital. 5:00 Interviewer: “So, the sickness would come on you gradually?” Oh, it came on, it didn’t come gradually, it came on when you started shivering you knew it was coming on and by the time they got to you, you were really more or less out of it. Interviewer: “Just jumping ahead, how long after the war did you continue to have that?” 5:23 I think I ended up in the hospital, rather I should say, I didn’t end up in the hospital here, I had malaria once, but it was no place near what it was when we were overseas and after I had it in Australia and I got into the motor pool there and after a little bit, I felt like I was doing pretty good so, I kind of requested that I go back to my outfit, I don’t know why, I think a man is a damn fool to do something like that, but they were starting to send men home on points and I don’t even know how they figured out their points, but if you had enough points you were next in line to go home so, I thought, “well, if I go back to my outfit, I should have more points than some of the replacements that just came in there, I just might be able to get sent home”, so I went and I joined them in New Guinea and we made a beach landing in Morotai. 6:37 Interviewer: “Why don’t you describe that because you said you had some training, some beach training already?” 15 �Ya, we had beach training then, we got on the LCI’s, landing craft infantry, and there was very little opposition on Morotai. So, I don’t say it was a piece of cake, but it was something that when the ramp dropped and you got off and ran onto shore, you made it. There wasn’t that much fighting there. 7:07 We were there for a while and we boarded liberty ships again and we went over to the Philippines and we landed at Leyte. We got off the liberty ship in Leyte, landed on the island of Leyte and I went up to the little town of Tacloban. There was a pineapple plantation there and by this time the jungle is entirely different from New Guinea. 7:48 It’s no more jungle, these are pineapple plantations, bananas, coconuts and whatever, but I ended up in a pineapple plantation and after about a week of fighting there, again I got malaria. 8:07 They took me back to the field hospital and they treated me and I started feeling pretty good so, I went along the beach there, walking around wondering what my next move will be, what’s going to happen to me and that’s when I saw 3 LCI’s coming in and 2 of them as they neared the shore, they went like this and they left a great big stream, that wake and everything, the 3rd one come in straight and they dropped the ramp and 2 guys come off and I looked and it was MacArthur, 2 guys grabbed him and took him off that ramp and put him in the water and they almost fell over and another guy had to come back and steady MacArthur and they figured the water was too deep, so they got him back on that ramp and they got him back on the LCI and they backed up raised the ramp and they brought him back in and they got closer and they lowered the ramp and 2 of the guys brought him out and they set him down in about a foot of water and he put his glasses on, he put his pipe in his mouth and he said, “I have returned” and some of the guys said, “well, where in the hell have you been?” 9:40 At that time, I just turned around, to me it made no difference, he had led us into slaughter in New Guinea and a lot of guys didn’t have any respect for him at all and I went back to the field hospital and the doctor came up and he said, “how are you feeling?” I told him, I said, “you know, I’m sick and tired of this whole damn thing” and he said, “boy you’re kind of”, I forget how he said that and I said, “well, I’ve been here a long time” and he said, “how long have you been here?” and I said, “I’ve been here since September of 1942” and I told him that I fought in New Guinea and Morotai and he said, “I think you’ve been here quite a while, I’ll make some arrangements for you” and I came down with malaria again and they got me on a hospital ship and I left the Philippines on a hospital ship and landed in San Francisco and from there I went to, on a train, well from there I went to what was that, Letterman General Hospital, I think that’s the one that’s in San Francisco, Letterman. 11:07 I was there for maybe a week and they sent me over to Camp Atterberry and when I got in Camp Atterberry they right away said that I could go home on furlough and I got home--I landed back in the states maybe the first week in January, the second week, then I got home, I think it was the last day of January. 11:35 I went into a bar on Coldbrook and Ionia, Kelly’s Bar, and I said, “I’d like a shot and a beer” and the guy looked at me and he said, ‘I can’t serve you, you’re not 21”. I was going to be 21 in 4 days, February 4th, so he said, “If you want anything to drink, you go upstairs, the refrigerator is full, help yourself”. I don’t want to drink that way, I want to drink with these people, but he let it go at that and my birthday was February 4th and my sister was going to bake a cake for me and she had no sugar so, I went to a little food store on the west side, about 2 blocks from where we lived and I bought 5 pounds of sugar, he sold it to me, you need a coupon and I didn’t have any, but I 16 �bought 5 pounds of sugar and it cost me $10.00. 12:40 I was glad to get it and she made me a birthday cake and that’s when things started to get a little bit better. Interviewer: “Describe your arrival back home. I mean, did they know you were alive?” They knew I was alive because I called home from San Francisco. I told them I was home, I was on American soil, I didn’t know when I was going to get home, but when I get home I will call you, or something to that effect. When I left Indianapolis on a train, it was day coach and we were pulling into the Union Depot in Grand Rapids and I knew that nobody was going to be at the depot for me because my dad was working in the furniture factory and my mom was home, my older sister, she was working in a defense plant, it was Applied Arts, I knew there wasn’t going to be anybody there, so when the train slowed down instead of getting off this side to go through the depot, I jumped off this side and I walked over Fulton Street bridge and I walked up Fulton Street and I just kind of took my time and I looked around and cried and I got home. 14:13 When my ma saw me, she cried and I cried and that was about it. Interviewer: “Steve, in your study there you’ve got several medals, one of them is a Bronze Star, was there a ceremony when you got it, did it just come in the mail?” All these medals that I got, I had to go through the legion in order to get them and it took me about 4 years to get them. I had to write to the Department of Records in St. Louis and then I got quite a few letters back from them stating that they had a fire there and they couldn’t find my records and I had to go through a board and as they were getting all this stuff together, I did have statements from officers from the 32nd, here in Grand Rapids, that were with me going through the islands, that verified that I was with them and fought with them in these different places and we sent all of that back into the department of records and they sent all of my medals to me. 15:43 There was no ceremony. Interviewer: “Why did you win the Bronze Star?” I think for being there. Interviewer: “That was enough?” That was enough I guess. Interviewer: “One of the questions I always ask at the end of an interview is, what did you personally feel you accomplished out there?” “Everlasting friendship.” 16:23 You never have friendship like this anyplace. The people you fought with, the people you live with, we know each other better than their parents know them or their wives, even to this day. You have a lot of faith in them, you have a lot of trust, you have a lot of respect and I think that’s all the guys’ want is respect. 16:50 Interviewer: “Steve, what do you think you personally got out of this experience, when you came back? Obviously, you were a 16 year old kid when you went there, what do you think—what changed, who was the Steve that came back?” 17 �Well, I grew up, I realized that you’re not as cocky as you were when you were home, you realize that people have feelings, you have to watch out how you approach people, you gotta treat people or you’ll learn to treat people the way—in short, you don’t want to hurt people. You want to treat them the way you would like to be treated and you have to realize that there are so many different people in this world, different religions, you have to respect their religious beliefs and I think you’re no better than the next person, you are who you are and when you go to bed at night and wake up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror, you know who you are, you know what you did and what you have gone through, it gives you a damn good feeling that you accomplished something that you’re not ashamed of. 18:55 That’s it. Interviewer: “Recently the Michigan Military Museum hosted a seminar, The Great Lakes History Conference and a couple of you actually had a chance to get up in front of an audience and I just wanted to hear your reaction to that. It was the first time you guys ever got up in that kind of a situation and how do you think the audience responded and how did you guys react to the response?” Well, I think that’s a good thing that happened. It brought back a lot of memories, it brought back a lot of things that should be said that weren’t said and it brought back the openness of all of us getting together and talking about, a little bit, what we did or what we tried to do without making yourself, or trying to make yourself a hero, we’re not hero’s, we were all in this together and we all helped one another and I think the biggest word there is help. 20:15 That’s about it. Interviewer: “So, did you ever swim in that swimming pool?” You know they tore the dang thing down for the freeway. I never did get to swim in that pool. You know, I laugh about it now, it’s awful funny, but I don’t regret one thing, nothing that I went through, nothing, I don’t regret anything. Interviewer: “Very good.” 18 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JanickiS Title A name given to the resource Janicki, Steve (Interview transcript and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janicki, Steve Description An account of the resource Steve Janicki served in the 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division, during WW II. His history includes some colorful accounts of his joining the guard and going through basic training (he was 16 at the time, and not even shaving yet). He covers the trip to Australia by ocean liner, additional training in Australia, and the difficulties of fighting in the jungle. Illness took him out of action at Buna in New Guinea, but he rejoined his unit for some of the later battles, and tells of seeing MacArthur on Leyte in the Philippines. His history was featured in the documentary Nightmare in New Guinea. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7600366fb362af4350574a711b6b2e1d.pdf e857f4cb4c276e4dd027efe53f703e31 PDF Text Text ·· ( J ~ (/ Guesthouse Bed and Breakfast Accomodations Built in 1879 I Round the Comer Ice Cream Shoppe Serving 50 Flavors 132 Mason Street Saugatuck, Michigan 49453 Phone (616) 857-8851 Bill and Joyce Jann �Rates Rooms 1 and 3 ..................................................................... $40.00 (One full bed) Shared Bath X Room 2 ......... ~ .. ~ ........................................ $46.00 (Two full beds) Private Bath Room 4 ........ ········································· ······················ ......... $44.00 (Two twin beds) Private bath Room 5 ................................................................................ $44.00 (One full bed) Private Bath Room 6 - Apartment with cooking facilities ......................... $49.00 (One full bed) Private Bath 1986 Rates - Subject To Change Our building was built in 1879 and has been a guest house for over 75 years. We are located downtown in the heart of Saugatuck, within walking distance of all shops and restaurants. You can find us by looking for 'Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe, the only pink building in town. Our guest rooms are beautifully furnished with a blend of antique and wicker furniture. Rooms have private baths and air conditioning. Complimentary bakery goods are served each morning in our Country Breakfast Room. Children welcome. Reservations recommended. Open all year. All rooms are non-smoking. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0021 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jann, Bill and Joyce Title A name given to the resource Jann's Guesthouse pamphlet and rates of stay Description An account of the resource Notecard advertisement for Jann's Guesthouse Bed and Breakfast featuring their rates of stay, origin in 1879, and location adjacent to 'Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe. In the bottom right hand corner of the advertisement are the names "Bill and Joyce Jann" and in the lefthand side there is the address of the location: 132 Mason Street Saugatuck, Michigan 49453. Phone (616) 857-8851. The pamphlet has the rates of stay listed on the interior and at the bottom there is a message describing the establishment. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Bed and breakfast accommodations Advertising fliers Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6118a9682d44d06bac564b406a594497.m4v 6730bea2b3a189061abea05102197ab2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/135cc00d5d00aa7f6ebcdee77f93e70a.pdf dd07be137732f4ec412addf827a57c12 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Donald Jansen Cold War; Vietnam War 28 minutes 9 seconds *Note: Times in outline correspond with timecode on video (01:59:23) Early Life -Born in Holland, Michigan, on May 6, 1937 -Grew up in Holland and lived there until he was 29 years old -Moved back to Holland in 2011 (02:00:07) Joining the Army & Becoming a Chaplain -Joined the Army in 1967 -Graduated from seminary in June 1967 -Spent the summer at Detroit General Hospital studying clinical pastoral education -There during the riots -Ordained in September 1967 -Went on active duty at Fort Hamilton, New York, in October 1967 -Part of the Reformed Church in America -Graduated from Western Theological Seminary -Took his basic chaplain’s course at Fort Hamilton (02:01:00) Stationed at Fort Bliss -Sent to Fort Bliss, Texas -Assigned to basic training brigade and had some duties at the reception center -Most soldiers went to advanced infantry training, and the majority went on to Vietnam -Caused the men and their families a lot of stress and anxiety -Parents called to ask questions, and the some of the men were married -He did more individual counselling than marriage counselling -Spent a year at Fort Bliss (02:02:23) Tour in Vietnam -Deployed to Vietnam in fall 1968 -Assigned to the 184th Ordnance Battalion -Second largest ammunition dump in Vietnam (had 120 “pads” of ammunition) -Supplied outlying areas -He had area coverage including a maintenance battalion and the 84th Combat Engineers -Travelled by convoy or helicopter -Went to Dak To on the Cambodian border -Base was located southwest of Qui Nhon -Travelled as far north as An Khe and Pleiku -Experienced ambushes on convoys -Travelled in a ¼ ton jeep covered in sandbags �-Went through the Mang Yang Pass -Viet Cong stayed on the cliffs and dropped grenades on the convoy -Travelled via the 8th Transportation Group -Gun trucks went with the convoy to offer better protection -Never stopped to engage the enemy, just kept shooting and driving -Their base camp was vulnerable to sappers -One night, they lost $20-30 million worth of ammo, and a lot of troops -Constantly dealt with penetrations -Rocket and mortar attacks -Saw the devastating aftermath of the Tet Offensive -Not safe anywhere in Vietnam -Had friends in the infantry who experienced a lot of combat -The best memory of Vietnam was the camaraderie he experienced with the troops -Saw evidence of PTSD long before effective treatment was implemented -He is active with the Vietnam Veterans of America and veterans’ support groups (02:07:54) First Tour in West Germany -Sent to West Germany and attached to the largest armored maneuver brigade in the Army -Had four battalions of armor, artillery, and other support units -A lot of the men had been to Vietnam and suffered from PTSD -No treatment options available to them in Germany -Operated 30 miles north of Frankfurt -Did a lot of field duty -Tanks from his unit were sent to the Middle East during a conflict -Note: Most likely the Jordanian-Palestinian Civil War -Stationed in Germany for three years (02:09:23) Stationed at Fort McPherson -Due to his interest in training and the war on drugs, he was sent to Fort McPherson, Georgia -Took drug & alcohol abuse classes, and developed a treatment and prevention program -Got his doctorate of ministry degree with a focus on pastoral counselling -Focused primarily on family counselling -Paid for by the GI Bill -At Fort McPherson at the beginning of the all-volunteer Army -Felt that it shouldn’t have happened -Saw a lot of soldiers take advantage of the high enlistment bonuses (02:11:14) Advanced Chaplain’s Course and South Korea -Sent to the advanced chaplain’s course at Fort Wadsworth, New York -Deployed to South Korea for two years (02:11:41) More CPE & Stationed at Fort Sam Houston -Sent to Yale New Haven Hospital, Connecticut, for further clinical pastoral education -Utilized that training at Brooke Army Medical Center at Fort Sam Houston, Texas -Spent most of his time in the burn ward -Had 75 beds -Felt like being back in combat �-Nothing more horrifying than severe burns -Sent to the main post chapel at Fort Sam Houston -Served there for six (or eight) months (02:12:33) Final Tour in Germany -Returned to Germany for his final tour -Attached to the 207th Military Intelligence Brigade (largest MI unit in the Army at the time) -Had a battalion that flew out of an airport near Stuttgart for recon flights -Had a human intelligence battalion -Monitored communications -Served with the 207th for three years -Served at the Pattonville chapel for most of a year -Note: Pattonville was a large housing area for Army personnel near Stuttgart -Had a community of 5,000 residents during his time there -1,000 students attended the local school -The 207th gathered top secret information from East Germans and other communist states -Sifted through the raw intelligence to try and find anything noteworthy -He did a lot of family counselling and held a lot of family retreats -Had a “rolling retreat” for the soldiers -Started with a prayer breakfast, then a tour down the Autobahn to Munich -Pointing out different kinds of religious architecture -Always stopped at the Dachau concentration camp -Never got any easier to see that place -Worked with Lieutenant Colonel John Koehler -Became the White House Director of Communications during the Reagan administration -Learned a lot about the lives of the troops he ministered to -Multi-ethnic, multi-religious environment and he thrived in it (02:17:25) Life after Service Pt. 1 -Retired from the Army in late 1987 after 20 years of service -Ministered at three churches over the span of 10 years -There was an opening at the VA Hospital in Battle Creek, Michigan, so he took it -Worked there for 10 years then permanently retired -Saw the VA make progress -Veterans received good care, but still had to wait a long time to actually get that care -Mostly did psychological work -Had four nursing homes -Two that specialized in hospice and dementia/Alzheimer’s care -State-of-the art facilities -Had a psychological ward -Dealt with PTSD and substance abuse -Learned a lot from the veterans -Incorporated skills he’d learned in the chaplaincy to connect with them (02:20:50) Work with the 3rd Armored Division & Memory from German Tour -Worked with a lieutenant colonel in the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Armored Division �-Went on to become the commander of forces in Europe -Had a high expectation of the chaplains under his command -Expected them to know the Bible and preach a positive message -During a tour in Germany, he remembers when his chapel almost burned down -His chaplain’s assistant accidentally left the stove on while they were gone -When they returned, the stove pipe was red hot and the room felt like an oven (02:23:22) Reflections -Feels it’s important for chaplains and other troops to tell their stories -Helps humanize soldiers and remind people that soldiers have lives before the military -Always played on softball teams as a way of bonding with troops -Needed good stamina as a chaplain to keep up with the rest of the soldiers (02:25:04) Marriages -Married to his first wife 19 or 20 years, but divorced 10 years after he left the Army -Single for 13 or 14 years, then he married a former Army chaplain -Have been married for 12 years (as of the interview) -She worked on the Family Advocacy Council and taught noncommissioned officers -Did that for 12 years in the Army -Still a very patriotic couple (02:26:10) Life after Service Pt. 2 -Still does committal (burial) services for the Veterans of Foreign Wars and American Legion -Remembers doing 30 committal services in two months at the VA Hospital in Battle Creek -There was a national cemetery conveniently located next to the hospital -At one time, he had four remains in need of a burial -Not one family member came to claim them or be part of the burial -Always committed to ensuring those veterans were buried with full military honors < Tape ends before the interview does > � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_JansenD2061V Title A name given to the resource Jansen, Donald J (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-29 Description An account of the resource Donald Jansen was born in Holland, Michigan, on May 6, 1937. He graduated from Western Theological Seminary in June 1967, was ordained in September, and went on active duty at Fort Hamilton, New York, in October 1967. He was sent to Fort Bliss, Texas, to serve as the chaplain for a basic training brigade and did that until he was deployed to Vietnam in the fall of 1968. He served with the 184th Ordnance Battalion and operated out of Qui Nhon. He ministered to soldiers in his unit as well as troops in a maintenance battalion and the 84th Combat Engineers. Despite being a chaplain, he experienced ambushes on convoys, rocket and mortar attacks on the base, and sapper attacks. After Vietnam, he was sent to West Germany for three years, then returned to the United States for service at Fort McPherson, Georgia. He also served at Fort Wadsworth, New York, and in South Korea for two years. Donald served at Brooke Army Medical Center then at the main post chapel in Fort Sam Houston, Texas, before doing a final tour in West Germany with the 207th Military Intelligence Brigade. He retired in 1987. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jansen, Donald J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keizer, Herman Jr. (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc367cc9704d97db109f624931822d38.mp4 e3297fd7c9d1bb34140779423a4a630d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0cd69a4ccab40bbd6aee4b05543a56b.pdf 80c05bb4f7d3c55789b57fd5c04a036b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project John Janssen (53:28) (00:25) Background Information • • • • • John was born on April 30, 1922 in Wisconsin His father bought a farm in Michigan in 1928 and they moved John graduated from high school in 1940; before that he had never paid attention to the news of what was going on in Europe He began working in a factory for 35 cents an hour and then moved to Kalamazoo, MI John enlisted in the Marine Corps on October 29, 1941 (4:20) Basic Training • • • Training was a big change in John’s life and it was hard for him to get used to They spent time drilling, doing calisthenics, and marching through swamps in South Carolina John was in South Carolina for about 3 months and then was shipped to Quantico, Virginia for guard duty at a Marine Corps base (8:40) Quantico • John was in Quantico from January 1942 through March 1943 • He helped directed traffic in five lanes by the main gate • In the year that he was in Virginia, he was on liberty once in Washington, DC (10:15) Working on an Air Craft Carrier • John was working with the gunnery crew on a Navy ship • They left from Virginia and traveled to South America to drop off supplies • They crossed through the Panama Canal while headed towards Pearl Harbor • John worked with Air Group 5 in Pearl Harbor and then headed towards Marcus Island (17:05) Marine Gunner • John remembered many kamikaze attacks while fighting in the Pacific • They hit back with radar-guided missiles, automatic rifles, and armor piercing shells • John felt all the men he worked with performed well while under attack (25:05) Ship Life • John spent two years altogether on a ship and found it to be very boring �• • He was a sergeant and had to guard deck every three days John spent his spare time reading and boxing (33:10) Time on Leave • While on leave John visited the New Hebrides and the Philippines • They brought their own beer because there were no bars on some of the islands • John really enjoyed spending time in the New Hebrides because they were many nice and interesting people • There were many USO shows on the islands (38:40) Okinawa • Near the end of the was kamikaze attacks increased • The US had been planning the invasion of Japan • No one had known anything about the atomic bomb and they all heard the surprising news on the radio • John landed in Japan to help take over an arsenal after the bombing • They took over Yokosuka and took all the arms away from Japanese soldiers • When they left Japan, they all had to strip down and were deloused with DDT (45:30) Traveling Back to the US • John rode in a small ship, stopping in Pearl Harbor, and then San Diego • The weather was rough for such a small ship and John was sick most of the time • John waited at the Great Lakes naval base in Chicago for two months; they had lost his papers and was not able to be discharged without them • Afterwards John began working in a factory and then started driving trucks � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JanssenJ Title A name given to the resource Janssen, John (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janssen, John Description An account of the resource John Janssen was born on April 30, 1922 in Wisconsin and moved to Michigan in 1928. He graduated from high school in 1940 and joined the Marine Corps on October 29, 1941. John went through basic training in South Carolina, where they spent a lot of time marching through swamps. John then began working on an aircraft carrier as an anti-aircraft gunner and served in a series of battles in the Pacific, concluding with Okinawa. After Japan was bombed, John worked there breaking down an arsenal and taking weapons away from Japanese soldiers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Marine Corps World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-08-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/70f81937519714ae928e15875039ae14.mp4 e0866bcec35f5e93511e5af18b692b0b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5e762643ee4dcdfdd9f3113141ca34a2.pdf fd74b4b7863ff8f908808f064b70d3a8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Ray Janssen (00:47:03) (00:15) Background Information • Ray was born in Wisconsin in 1923 • They later moved to Michigan and his father bought a 40 acre farm, and also worked in a factory • They had almost lost the farm during the depression • Ray graduated in 1942 and began working until he was drafted in 1943 • He had not paid much attention to the news before Pearl Harbor was attacked (5:00) Training in Alabama • Ray trained at Camp Rucker in Alabama; the camp was very large and the weather was terribly hot • The marched and did many other activities while wearing gas masks • Ray trained for eight months in ordinance duties • Most of the sergeants were easy to work with as long as you did what you were supposed to do (11:20) Australia • Ray took a train from Alabama to San Francisco • They trained in California for another three weeks • They then boarded a liberty ship and headed for Australia • The trip lasted 30 days through the month of October, and they had to travel in a zigzag path the whole way • Ray lived in a tent with the 168th ordinance company outside of a large city in Australia • They were working with Australian civilians in supply warehouses and had nights off (18:50) Leyte • Ray left Australia after one year and headed for a Leyte in the Philippines, arriving a few weeks after the initial landing there • Their ship was attacked by kamikazes that caused great damage to the engine of the ship and killed their captain • Ray was hit in the thigh with shrapnel and taken to an old school house on the shore • He then stayed on a hospital ship for three days and was transferred to and aid center in New Guinea for four months (24:50) Philippines • Ray went back to work with his company and was working in light duty and supplies �• • • • He worked with civilians at the air port, who he though were all very nice people and all spoke perfect English Ray had time off to visit his brother in the Navy as his ship passed by From August till December Ray worked to evacuate all US supplies from the area They were breaking down the base and actually sunk or destroyed many of their supplies (34:05) Discharged • Ray boarded a ship and reached California on December 24th • He arrived in Fort Sheridan on January 4th and was discharged • Ray worked many odd jobs after his time in the service • He worked for three years in a muffler company and then was dye casting for another 5 years • He later went into manufacturing for 27 years before retiring � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JanssenR Title A name given to the resource Janssen, Raymond (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janssen, Raymond Description An account of the resource Ray Janssen was born in Wisconsin in 1923 and then grew up on a farm in Michigan. He graduated from high school in 1942 and was drafted shortly after in 1943. Ray trained in terribly hot weather in Alabama for eight months and then trained in California for about three weeks before leaving for Australia. Ray worked with Australian civilians in supply warehouses for one year before traveling to Leyte, where he was wounded in a kamikaze attack on his ship. He recuperated on New Guinea and returned to duty in the Philippines at the end of the war, where he helped to destroy leftover supplies and munitions. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-08-15 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/19f5a09be86e323d30089c19169aad36.mp4 78b1f1f52f2e9e35572d87061d40bc17 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/965764cce73b108c28ccc21cf8e947e0.pdf 2e7670f6cb5ccab79fa80beaac23d05e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: (58:55) Charles Jarocki Persian Gulf War, June 1986 to March 1997 United States Air Force (00:05) Pre-War Training • • • • • • • Enlisted in the United States Air Force in 1986 Was sent to a military processing station in Fresno, CA He had been living in Clovis, CA, but had been bored with life and getting nowhere Had dropped out of college before enlisting and he felt that he had to get his life back together He wanted to follow in his father’s footsteps, who had fought in the Korean War Charles did well on his first test, so he was asked to take an electric data processing test Afterwards, he was chosen to go into the computer programming field (01:36) The Training Process • • • • On June 3rd, 1986 he left for the Air Force base in San Antonio, TX He went to basic military training in the 3707th training squadron with 50-60 other men Basic training lasted one and a half months and Charles found training enjoyable He next went to Keisler Air Force base in Biloxi, MS (02:25) Computer Programming School • • • • • Charles attended programming school for three months after he had gotten orders for his first permanent duty station at the Holloman Air Force base in New Mexico He was assigned to the 6585th test crew, in the computer science division, which did not pay well, but was a fun job Charles provided support to a central inertia test facility where they test inertial guidance systems for Air Force platforms There was a test range and a high speed test track Charles stayed in New Mexico for four years and had planned on going back to college (4:00) Re-enlistment • • In 1990 the Air Force had convinced Charles to stay longer in the same career field He then dropped out of New Mexico State University (4:35) Training Culture Shock • • Charles was from a large family and he was used to being around lots of people, but it was hard for him to get used to military life Everyone was made to be, act, and look the same in the Air Force �• • New Mexico had a much more different climate than he was used to, with very high humidity and equally high temperatures His job in basic training was to do typing in the office area where the drill instructors worked because he had learned to type in high school (6:30) Jeff Barkley • • • • • • Jeff was his assistant in San Antonio Jeff’s nickname was the “rat” and Charles’ nickname was the “house mouse” Charles had to study a lot in training in such areas as jobs, politics, insignia, and physical training There were some people that hated physical training so much that they would hide in the bathroom or the barracks for hours No one really wanted to do the running for miles really early in the morning Charles trained and had classes with females, who were called the “sister flight” (9:30) Pickles • • • • • • • Men became pickles after three days of training in which they would be allowed to obtain their fatigues Then they would go to the barber, get all their hair cut off, so that everyone looked completely different and Charles could not recognize anyone They then became “canned pickles” once the tailor sewed their nametag onto their uniform Air Force training is less physical than other armed forces, but there is more mental training Many people could not past their mental tests because they had not studied enough They were not allowed to make phone calls very often, which left Charles feeling very alienated The highlight of the day was receiving mail (12:40) Graduation • Graduation was a big deal, in which everyone got all dressed up and lots of guests attended (13:15) Tech School • • • • • • After graduation, Charles was shipped to Biloxi, MI where he spent three months in computer programming classes He had classes all day long, yet he felt he had more freedom on that base He did well on all of his tests and graduated from his computer programming classes There are only 20 bases world wide in which programmers can work He was then sent back to Holloman Air Force base in New Mexico for air fighter training Charles was in the 6585th test group for munitions and electronics on air-craft navigation systems �(16:50) One Stripe • • • • Charles started off as a one stripe, E-1 airman, and became a first class airman after a couple of years He also did test group photography and gained much experience in that field Charles went to the Air Force Community College for skill levels in his career field Charles won lots of competitions, such as Airman of the Quarter (19:15) White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico • • • • • A very large range with lots of space There was great flying weather so that plains could fly about 350 days/year Charles liked to take pictures while flying Once a pilot did an aerial Dive-Bomb, which made him feel like he was sick and suffocating They had been flying in a T-38 because Charles had won a competition (22:00) Animal Experiments • • • • • • • • Charles had gained a bonus for re-enlisting He went to the Air Force base in Dayton, OH There he worked on the Harry G. Armstrong Medical Research Laboratory They did tests to find out what would effect the Air Force personnel For example, they would do research on chemicals to learn what, if any, were the effects of exposure They experimented on animals: rats and mice Yet they wanted to do less experiments on animals, so they wanted to use computers for simulation Charles’ job was to support mini main frames which they were running simulations on (24:20) Wright State University • • • • While working in Ohio, Charles also attended classes to work on his Bachelors Degree in computer programming He went back to New Mexico to marry his wife Liz When they got back from their honeymoon, Charles received orders to travel over seas He had earlier volunteered for world wide extended tours (25:10) The Gulf War • • • • His lab in Ohio began to focus on chemicals to send to the war zone Everyone was constantly watching CNN and Charles felt very patriotic He was amazed at the sheer force applied and how quickly the Iraqis had given up There was a very decisive bombing campaign and the problems quickly deteriorated (26:45) Rhamstein Air Force base, Germany �• • • • • • The headquarters for the Unites States Air Force base in Europe were located in Germany Charles was assigned to the 1856 computer systems group, which provided all the computer support for the command Liz went with him to Germany, in which they both experience an immediate culture shock They both took two months worth of German lessons They lived near a massive military community with 35,000 Americans Charles and Liz had to live off the base because there was no vacant housing for them, which left them feeling isolated (31:10) 3186 Computer Systems Group • • • • • • • • They provided lots of support for the Air Force in the Persian Gulf However, they were not as busy when Charles arrived because the war was winding down There were lots of programmers with not much to do, which left many of them disgruntled, bored, with no work There was about twenty computer programmers and they were all experiencing low morale Charles found this to be a bad environment that did not sit well with him He worked on a system for the Surgeon General in order to manage their personnel He also worked on a mapping system for the air crafts called the Advanced Planning System He then began learning new types of programming and new languages (35:00) Real Work • • • • • • • • • He finally felt like he was actually part of the Air Force in Germany, whereas earlier he had just assisted in research There was new concern regarding the civil war in Yugoslavia, between the Serbs and the Croatians, in which many were left starving The Advanced Planning System helped air drops of food for relief, called “Provide Promise” They dropped Meals Ready to Eat, or MREs, off a C-130 aircraft It felt good to contribute and save lives He also worked on Operation “Deny Flight” to keep others from flying over Yugoslavia He worked on operating programs in Northern Italy He helped to keep the system up and running, wrote programs to extend the functionality of the system He spent five months in Italy and then went back to Germany (40:28) Joint Forces Air Commander • Charles helped to keep track of whom was flying in a particular area • The computer system helped him in air campaigns • He received good training in Germany and good discipline �(41:50) His Brother Larry Joins the Navy • Larry flew EP-3s for the Navy • They needed linguists in Yugoslavia, and Larry spoke Russian, which was similar • Larry traveled to Germany to receive more language training • There was a shortage of dictionaries from Yugoslavian to English • His brother liked the Air Force base better than his previous Navy base • In Germany, there were many universities to take classes at • The Air Force paid for Charles’ and his wives’ education; Charles finally received his Bachelor’s degree in Germany • He also received an Accommodation Medal and Meritory Service Medal • They made good friends in Germany and in France • Altogether he had traveled to the Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, Lichtenstein, Germany, and France (46:30) New Mexico • He received a binding request for employment from old officers in New Mexico • Began doing operational testing of C-Taps and other new systems • With the birth of both his children, he decided that he finally wanted out of the Air Force • He began taking classes for his Masters degree when officers asked him to work for the company TRW, on C-Taps, modeling and simulation (49:00) New Options after the Air Force • Charles became a Republican and greatly values the Department of Defense • He has a high opinion of people in the Armed Forces, especially those in combat • He was proud to be part of the greatest Air Force in the world • He is now a Department of Defense contractor and works for other aero-space companies • He lost his sense of security when he left the Air Force, which was difficult for him because he had been in the Air Force for eleven years • He was eventually awarded ten percent disability because he had got asthma from being stationed in high altitude areas � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JarockiC Title A name given to the resource Jarocki, Charles (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jarocki, Charles Description An account of the resource Charles Jarocki joined the United States Air Force in 1986 and was stationed in many different parts of the United States and Europe for eleven years. While in the Air Force, Charles received his Bachelors degree and his Masters degree in computer programming. He never experienced hands on combat because he had been called out over seas just as the Persian Gulf War was ending. Charles still works in the computer programming and engineering field and believes that the Air Force was a great experience for him. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Olson, Katie (Interviewer) Schiller-Jarocki, Elizabeth (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military United States. Air Force Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-03 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/701d72bb521d7dd482e0b9bd5bca0f61.mp4 b2de105e582bb5a20fd9effbe1e4acb5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8325d5cfbd4525d7a48a928bbbb47519.pdf 3420f92c7e1a26e3c9b1c0434452208a PDF Text Text Jedlowski, Ray Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Ray Jedlowski Length of Interview: (1:10:31) Interviewed by: Steve Hammond Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “Hello, my name is Steve Hammond and I’m here representing the Grand Valley State University's Veterans History Project and today we have the privilege of sitting here interviewing Mr. Ray Jedlowski. He’s from Caledonia which is actually kind of close to Kentwood but anyway, Ray thank you for letting us interview you and–” Well thank you Steve. Interviewer: “We’ll start out right away with when you were born and where you were born.” (00:32) I was born in 1942 in Portsmouth, Virginia and at that time my dad was a chief in the Navy so I’m kind of a Navy brat and this kind of disappointed when I chose the Air Force versus the Navy. I just told him “Dad it’s too much water, I don’t want to do that, I want to fly.” So anyway that’s kind of how that happened, went to Fordson high school in Dearborn, Michigan, graduated 1962 and at that time you couldn’t find a job cutting a lawn, cleaning gutters and there were really no opportunities for me when I graduated from high school and I recall having an old car that my dad got a good price on and it would hurt me very much that I had to ask him for gas money time and time again, and what made it worse is he’d always give me that $10 with a smile and at that time I decided, you know it’s time for me to do something else because I couldn’t find a job. So I decided that I would go down to the recruiting office to see what was available. Interviewer: “So, I’m gonna just stop you right there for just a second because I want to go back further.” �Jedlowski, Ray Okay. Interviewer: “Okay, you were born in Portsmouth, Virginia? What was your mother’s and father’s names?” Raymond and Helen Jedlowski. Interviewer: “Did you have any brothers or sisters?” No, only child. Interviewer: “Okay, good and you said your dad was a Navy man? What’d he do 20 years in it, 30 years in it?” He spent ten and a half years in the Navy and oftentimes he’d always assign a sailor to me on the destroyer while he was attending a function or something and dad would tell him “Make sure he’s here when I get back.” Interviewer: “You were actually on a destroyer?” (2:30) Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Oh, would you go out to sea or were you just at port?” No, in port. Yeah, he was stationed in Virginia Beach, the naval center there and so yeah been on a lot of ships. I don’t remember a lot of it but I remember some of it. Interviewer: “What– Was your dad in during the Korean war?” Second world war. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “He was in the second world war? Oh okay, was he in any battles at all?” Oh yes, but dad didn’t like to talk about it much, so. Interviewer: “Do you know which ones they were or what ship he was on?” I had to pull things out of him and every time I would ask him things about that he would become sad, so I just stopped, I decided if he wanted to tell me then he would. So I didn’t press him anymore than that. Interviewer: “Did he ever tell you before he passed away? No he didn’t? Okay, was he at Pearl Harbor at all or was he–” No, he was out to sea– I don’t know where but it was not near Pearl Harbor at the time. Interviewer: “Okay, well we can all say thanks to your dad for his service, I mean I know he’s not here or anything.” (3:44) It just seems like the whole family was, I mean my dad’s uncle was in the Army and all his brothers were and all my cousins were all in the service and it brings me to the point of these draft dodgers. These ones that would want to go to Canada and not serve the country, well if you can live with that the rest of your life I guess that’s your choice, I can’t. I thought it was my duty as it was my dad’s to do whatever it takes to protect the freedom of this country because as we all know freedom is not free. Interviewer: “That is true, and thank you very much too I appreciate that.” You’re very welcome, I’d go again if they needed me. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “I would too, I don't blame you. You mentioned an uncle that was in the Army during World War II?” Yes and he was under Patton. Interviewer: “Oh what was his name?” Walter Jedlowski, he was a tank commander and when they went to Sicily and Palermo– Interviewer: “Okay, now we come up to– You’re born in ‘42 you said, and okay you were stationed in– Your dad was stationed in Virginia and you were living in Virginia. What made you come up to Michigan?” Well my dad at that time just told us all he wanted a place to call home and didn’t want to be out to sea all that length of time, especially just when he had a son and so he just decided to get out of the Navy and then we moved from Virginia Beach to Dearborn Heights, Michigan and bought a home there. Interviewer: “Well I mean did you have family up in Michigan?” (5:30) Yes, yes his brothers and sisters were in Dearborn in the Garden City area. Interviewer: “Okay, alright cool. Alright so what did your dad do for work after he got out of the service?” He– In the service he was in diesel, in the engine room was his job there he oversaw the running and keep the ship going and keeping it running properly, and then after that he decided he wanted to become a mechanic and went to mechanic school. Interviewer: “Wow and what did your mother do?” �Jedlowski, Ray My mom worked at Burroughs Corporation in Livonia, Michigan and they made things for the cars and things like that, circuit boards and things. Interviewer: “Were they like a subsidiary like the big three automakers or were they just–” Not at that time, no. I’m glad she worked there because they had a beautiful resort for the employees only called “Burroughs farm” where you could play golf, swimming, you could camp out there and really, really cool. Yeah in Kensington Park area, Michigan. Interviewer: “Okay, and you said you graduated at Portsmouth High School?” Yeah, Fordson in Dearborn. Interviewer: “In Dearborn, okay how was that down there, growing up in Detroit?” When I was there? Interviewer: “Yeah.” (7:00) Great, ask me what it is now. Interviewer: “No, I won’t, I know about Detroit so– But anyway, were you a big sports fan?” Yes. Interviewer: “Any of those teams down there?” Well I played football. Interviewer: “Oh did you?” �Jedlowski, Ray Yes. Interviewer: “What’d you play?” Running back. Interviewer: “Okay, alright.” I was as fast as I appear, I didn’t weigh much so we did well. Interviewer: “So you a big Tiger fan, Lions fan, Red Wings?” I like the Red Wings and disappointed in the Tigers but [unintelligible] Interviewer: “How about back then did you go to any games at old Tiger Stadium with your dad?” (7:40) Yes, I did yeah. My god those were such enjoyable memories. Interviewer: “Wasn’t it though?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Who did you see playing, anybody famous?” I saw Al Kaline and Norm Cash, Freehan the catcher, Northrup and Mickey Lolich. Interviewer: “Good ‘68 crew.” Yeah. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Then of course I see you’re a big Michigan fan, was your family all into Michigan football back then?” My whole family’s just crazy Michigan, they just bleed blue I’m telling you, and then my dad’s aunts and uncles of course State. So here we go, that lit the candle, so here it goes, here it goes. Interviewer: “Yeah, I am the same way mom’s a State fan and brother’s a Michigan fan so yup.” Yeah, but you know what we have to be opposites because there wouldn’t be a rivalry would there? Interviewer: “There you go.” It’s gotta happen. Interviewer: “But it’s better than Notre Dame and Ohio State right?” (8:40) I’m for anybody that beats Ohio State. Interviewer: “Anyway we’ll get back to that stuff but anyway– Okay, so you graduated high school ‘62 and then you decided to enlist in the Air Force?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you mentioned before but go over again why you decided that instead of any other branch.” Well, actually just a vivid– When I walked to the recruiter’s office a long hallway and I seen signs that said “Navy, Marines, Coast Guard.” And I saw just walking straight down the hallway �Jedlowski, Ray was the Air Force recruiter, I said “I guess I’m meant to go there.” So I just walked in the Air Force recruiters office and here I am. Interviewer: “So and then you said your dad had comments about that?” Yeah, I didn’t even tell my dad so I come home I said “Dad guess what I did.” He says “What?” I said “I enlisted.” He says “Oh, in the Navy?” “No.” He says “No?” I said “Too much water Dad, I’ve been there done that, you know with you. No, Air Force, I want to fly.” So– But he was just messing with me, whatever I chose to do he was always supportive but he was surprised. Interviewer: “Sure, well it was the same with me, my dad was in the Navy too and I wanted to sign up in the Army Guard. So we’re in the same boat here, well the same plane whatever you want to call it.” Well it was cool on Halloween, I didn’t have any outfits so I’d wear his Navy clothes, you know with the 13 buttons, and the shirt, and the white nice T-shirt. (10:25) Interviewer: “While you were growing up that’s what you did on Halloween? Yeah, well that’s pretty neat. Okay, so then you sign up there in Detroit right?” Yes, Fort Wayne. Interviewer: “Okay, now at that time– I can’t remember my history of that time but there was a draft right at that time, but your number probably wasn’t coming up quite yet was it?” No, I enlisted. I did not get drafted at all, I wanted to go. I think there was a draft at that time, yes. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Now at this time President Kennedy was in office in 1962 when you enlisted and Vietnam was still pretty fairly early at that time. What did you know about Vietnam before you went over there, when you enlisted in the Air Force? Did they tell you anything or did they–” No, not really but just before that when we had the Cuban Missile Crisis, I was involved in that baby. Interviewer: “How was that?” Well because on our base we had B-52s, they were all gone and we were convinced that we were going to war. Interviewer: “Against Cuba or Russia?” Russia, at that time and so they called us in and we had, you know, debriefing about what to expect, what we’re gonna do, so that was a little scary. Interviewer: “I bet, well we’ll get back to that later but we got to back to your basic training at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. Alright tell me about that.” (12:00) Hot, very very hot, and you know it just– I can remember the kids on the bus, I call them kids because that’s how they run the process, you’re a kid when you get off the bus and you’re a man when you walk out of there. You know they taught responsibility, everything had to be just so, wake you up in the middle of the night, run 5-10 miles, just doing campaign, just policing the area– The same area day after day after day and then one day we found a jack rabbit there so we all surrounded them and the jack rabbit surrendered he just laid down flat like “No, I can’t, I’m too scared to do anything.” But yeah it wasn’t bad, I mean we would have a three day pass once in a while and went to town, do what most guys do had a couple beers– That’s another story, wanna hear about that one? �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Sure, this is all after basic training or during your basic training?” This is tech school. Interviewer: “Okay, oh you went up to Amarillo after that right?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay tech school, let us know what tech school’s about.” Administration, you know everything we need to do, all the particulars, learn the regulations and then 6/14 the form and just, you know everything that you need to know to make it run. So we graduated from– That night on a Friday so we went to town, well unfortunately we weren’t 21 so we– The elevator operators that needs to have operators that took them up and down offered to get us some beer. So we paid an absorbent amount of money for beer and we’re enjoying the cocktails in the room and then in turn he calls the Texas rangers on us. Yeah, so we had to go back to the air base and in an open air pick up truck and riding in the back in December, cold. Interviewer: “Even down in Texas that’s pretty cold.” (14:15) Oh yeah, very cold. Interviewer: “Did you have snow down there at that time?” No just bitter, bitter cold, but that didn’t stop the parades every Saturday though. We were out there every Saturday passing in review. Interviewer: “Oh, every Saturday huh? How long did you have to stand there, in formation?” �Jedlowski, Ray Felt like eternity but probably about an hour and a half, would give you awards and decorations and that kind of stuff, and drill pad every day. Why is it you always get one guy that’s got two left feet, you know and just– You know we’re out there extra time because he don’t get it. Interviewer: “It always happens no matter what branch you’re in.” I know. Interviewer: “Okay, so you got your administrative training at tech school there in Amarillo, then where were you stationed after that?” My work is to go to Washington, D.C Andrews Air Force Base, that’s the home of the Air Force 1 and went to the American Society of Civil Engineers. Interviewer: “Okay, and let us know what– I know what civil engineers are but let everybody else know what civil engineers are in the Air Force.” (15:30) Alright, civil engineers is your plumbers, electricians, carpenters, just all the skilled trades that are necessary and great bunch of guys, really hard working guys. Knew their stuff that this was a trade they could take out on the outside and immediately begin working anywhere. Interviewer: “Oh definitely, kind of like the Navy Seabees really.” Yeah, actually yeah, so it was really cool. Interviewer: “Now you mentioned about the Cuban Missile Crisis, what– Tell us about that right from the beginning. What you heard then all of a sudden– You mentioned the bombers too, mention everything about that if you can.” Well, we didn’t hear it formally, I mean you know we would hear it from our peers or lieutenants or captains openly talking about it, you know and rushing around when we see all the B-52s are �Jedlowski, Ray gone and all you have is your T-33 trainers on the pad and that’s all you got on the base, something’s up, you know and that’s when we heard Kennedy make a speech that we’re not backing down. Russia you want to bring it, what you had to do we were gonna have missiles 90 miles from us, yeah that’s not happening. Interviewer: “Yeah and now did he go on the nation and do it or did he address just the armed forces? I think he went on the nation didn’t he?” Nation, yeah but that’s when Khrushchev was in charge and backed him down. Interviewer: “What did you all think when you finally got the word that they’re gonna move the missiles?” We were– We were delighted we thought that that was great stuff because, you know in nuclear war there’s no winners so– And there will never be winners it’s gonna be total chaos so– Interviewer: “What– Do they have a plan in case unfortunately a missile did come your way for you guys to go?” (17:33) There were bunkers, yeah we were okay. Interviewer: “Have you been– Did you see any of them or go in them?” No, if they were to launch we would’ve immediately been evacuated to the bunkers. Interviewer: “Especially in D.C area too I mean–” Yeah, there was bunkers everywhere . Interviewer: “Now Air Force 1, that’s their home like you said, did you see it a lot?” �Jedlowski, Ray Yes. Interviewer: “Did you ever get to see President Kennedy or his family or the vice president Johnson or any of them?” No, not a big fan of Johnson either. Interviewer: “Alright, we can talk about that later.” Oh I won’t talk about it. Interviewer: “But anyway–” But no I did not. Interviewer: “Okay, then when did you actually go to Vietnam?” (18:15) 1965. Interviewer: “Okay before that you mentioned to me– Before I started interviewing you, about when Kennedy was shot. Tell me about that day that he was shot and when you guys heard it and how everybody felt and you too of course.” Oh it– I was just at my desk and when we heard the news it’s like your body is drained and you got no interest in working anymore. It was just like you just amble out of there and just walk to try to process it, you know it was just unbelievable. Interviewer: “Now was it like that for the high NCOs and officers, did they feel the same way?” �Jedlowski, Ray Oh yeah, everybody was just like “What?” You know “What just happened?” So yeah it was total shock and it was just amazing how that news like that just drains your energy, just numb trying to process that. Interviewer: “So were you there when they brought his casket and body?” Yeah. Interviewer: “How was that?” I was down the flight line. Interviewer: “Okay, when Air Force 1 came in with Johnson and Mrs. Kennedy and them? Okay, did you know that was them there?” No doubt. Interviewer: “So tell me about that if you want to.” (19:40) Well, I just wanted to see for myself, you know just to validate it that that was true. Interviewer: “Historians have said many times and even include a couple professors at Grand Valley State that said the two worst days in American history is when President Lincoln and President Kennedy were shot, would you agree with that?” I do, Kennedy was a good man, a good man. Interviewer: “I know Lincoln was way before our time but do you think that still holds together today?” �Jedlowski, Ray I do because he meant what he said. No, I mean I guess I could have made that call, I mean that cannot happen you cannot– He’s putting missiles 90 miles from our home land, no you’re not gonna do it. I mean you do what you have to but we’re not gonna allow it. Interviewer: “Sure yeah, okay now after did you have to do any security thing for Kennedy’s funeral or was things all tight and locked down when all that happened that week?” Oh yeah the bases locked down absolutely, yeah if you weren’t on the base you weren’t– Nobody was getting in and they had dignitaries of course for when the body was brought and unloaded and put into a hearse. Interviewer: “Did you– Anybody on the base provide security when he was lying in state in the Capitol or anything like that during the funeral?” (21:12) I’m sure that happened, yeah I’m sure that happened. Interviewer: “Did you all get to watch his funeral at all?” No, I guess I knew enough didn’t want [unintelligible] So sad, good man. Interviewer: “We’ll get back to Kennedy later and then of course Johnson took over. Now we’ll get back to you, when did you actually go to Vietnam?” 1965. Interviewer: “Okay and what– When did you get the orders to go to Nam?” Well it’s interesting because my job was to process volunteer statements to go to Vietnam, I didn’t put– I didn’t process myself at all but those guys that filled out volunteer statements to go �Jedlowski, Ray to Vietnam– They didn’t go! It just seemed like the ones that did not volunteer were the ones that went. So I was very surprised when I got my orders to do that. Interviewer: “I’m gonna have to stop it just for a second here. Alright we’re back, go ahead you just got your orders for Vietnam.” Yes and so– Which I was pretty shocked because I certainly didn’t volunteer to go but I certainly would go and I had approximately 21 days before the deployment and– Can I back up one more part from before? Interviewer: “Sure go ahead, yeah.” Alright when I went to Fort Wayne to– You know they’re supposed to fly us Lackland, well some of us took the– Had to be put on a train and took the train to Texas, air conditioning went out two or three times, the food was awful, I just got the air conditioning working and the next station went out again. That was one horrible ride to Texas, anyway. (23:25) Interviewer: “No it’s fine you can go back and let us know, fill in the gaps as soon as you remember.” Most of them got to get flown there but no this little segment here took the train and why? I don’t know, okay I’m done. Interviewer: “Okay, so now obviously did they activate the whole unit or did they just parts of the unit?” All civil engineers went, our whole group everybody, the plumbers, electricians, everybody went, everybody was gone. Interviewer: “And how many was that?” �Jedlowski, Ray About 45. Interviewer: “Okay, alright okay so you got your orders to go to Vietnam, how did you feel, did you tell your parents you were going there?” Yes. Interviewer: “What’d they say?” Well, mom cries, dad shakes your hand, that was kind of “I gotta do this dad, just like you did it’s my turn.” Interviewer: “Did he give you any advice or anything to say to you? No, nothing at all?” No pep talk, no. Interviewer: “Okay, now at that time, and you said 1965 you went? Okay, at that time they were just starting– We were just starting to get into it, what did you hear about Vietnam up to that time you got your orders?” (24:45) That we were just sending advisors, trying to help them train their military. We weren’t painting a war picture at that time, maybe you hear a skirmish or something but not what was really there but no wasn’t anything. Interviewer: “Nothing like that?” No. Interviewer: “Okay so you took off from Andrews Air Force Base, where’d you go from there?” �Jedlowski, Ray Hawaii. Interviewer: “Hawaii. Straight from– All the way to Hawaii or did you land in the west coast first?” All the way to Hawaii. Interviewer: “B-52?” 141 Starlifter I think it was called, it’s a great, great big plane. Oh we didn’t get seats like this we got the leather straps. Interviewer: “The cargo seats.” Cargo seats. Interviewer: “Yeah, I had that too.” (25:44) Yeah, so we get to Hawaii everybody said “You ever been to Hawaii before?” Sort of, I was on the ground for an hour while they refueled and then we took off again. So never forget I think I had a quarter on the counter for a cup of coffee, she says “You know it’s 35 cents.” Back in ‘62 that’s big money, for coffee? Yeah, so they– Interviewer: “Yeah, so how long do you stay in Hawaii?” An hour. Interviewer: “An hour, okay. Right at Hickam Air Force Base?” Yup. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Yup, then off to Vietnam?” There we went. Interviewer: “Alright so then when you got there, you mentioned to me earlier, was there some kind of skirmish just outside your base– Oh but name the base you were at in Vietnam.” It was called Pleiku Air Base. Interviewer: “And where was that at in Vietnam? Near Saigon or some other place was it?” About an hour to Saigon. Interviewer: “North?” North. Yeah so and then when the pilot landed he said “You know you guys are earning combat pay now?” I said “Oh yeah why’s that?” He said “Cause we got bullet holes in the wing.” Interviewer: “Did they shoot while you were in the air?” (27:00) Sure, oh yeah they always did. Interviewer: “They shot you while you were in the air?” No, they shot our plane. Interviewer: “Oh they shot your plane, okay. Alright so– But did you know about it at the time?” �Jedlowski, Ray Only when he landed and told us. Interviewer: “You couldn’t feel the bullets hit?” No, it was a big plane. I don't think we were in any danger but just make it more aerodynamic is all. Interviewer: “Yeah, well so how did you feel after you found that out?” I didn’t– Actually I thought it was kind of humorous because, you know I’m pretty darn young and “It’ll be alright, no big deal I don’t care.” But the guys would never plan for tomorrow. We always did what we did today and plan something for tomorrow, well we’ll see, that kind of attitude. Interviewer: “So you mentioned to me earlier there was like a skirmish or battle near the base?” (27:58) Yes, yes there was, nothing that we were involved in. We got there but we had the– The A1E jets were at that base and they would drop bombs in the jungle on the perimeters, you know just trying to thin the out some and then next to my boots we had a 105 howitzer that would go off at eight o’clock every night and if you can get used to sleeping– From me to the wall and there’s a howitzer over there going off you can still sleep, good for you but you get used to it. Interviewer: “Wow, must have been pretty loud.” Yeah, it was, yeah it was and then so they would change commands and one of the bone heads forgot to pass on the firing pin. So they’re sitting out there with the campfire and everything, just one of the silly things that happened. Interviewer: “But you got to have a lot of humor and laughs and all that.” �Jedlowski, Ray Oh yeah, or you won’t make it, and then we’re out in the field we’re building billets for the 1st Cav that’s pushing their way through. Well we got the monkeys coming out of the trees and stealing our hammers and went up the tree and throw them. Interviewer: “Real monkeys?” Yeah, oh yeah very real. Interviewer: “What kind of monkeys, they weren’t chimpanzees were they?” No, the– Interviewer: “Spider monkeys?” Spider monkeys, yeah or they’d take the nails they thought that was great fun. So then we all had to wear the hard hats because they’ll dunk you with those hammers. Interviewer: “Did anybody get hurt?” (29:30) No, and then the guys made the mistake of feeding them, well you start doing that then you make a mistake. Interviewer: “Yeah you don’t feed wild animals like that even though they seem pretty tame, still. Well they always want to be with you cause you’re the food source now. Interviewer: “Sure, what other animals did you have contact with out there? Any dangerous ones?” No. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Cause you hear all kinds of stories about snakes and other things out there.” Fortunately not, there could’ve been some in that trench that was around our perimeter. We had lights that would show into the trench and out in the field so in event of an alert we would all go in there, and we were still upset because they shine the lights on us. Well that’s like shining it on the ducks in a gallery, you put your lights out there not on us. So we swore the next time we get hit, those lights are coming out. Interviewer: “So did you hear that battle that was going on near the base at all?” Oh yeah, well you can hear it every day. Interviewer: “Oh yeah?” Yeah, I mean I wasn’t involved in it at that time but you can hear them. Interviewer: “Was it the– So it was the Viet Cong trying to infiltrate the base basically.” (30:50) Right. Interviewer: “Now obviously– Was it the 1st Cav that drove back, was it?” They– At that time the 1st Cav was pushing through so that’s what all the problems– All the noise was, it was because they were out there. So our job was to go in and to build quarters for them which was made out of wood and then the canvas top. So that was our job to build– I don’t know how many we built, 100 or so I’m not sure. Then we had an on base guy who wanted to be a barber so some of the engineers said “Look it, we’ll build you this barber shop but you gotta give us a good deal.” “Oh yeah I’ll give you a good deal.” So they build a nice one, this thing is nice, two weeks later it burnt down because of the hot plate on there. They said “We’re not �Jedlowski, Ray building you another one.” So and then we had a house mamasan who did our washing and take care of our clothes and stuff. They had the best inside information about what’s going on everywhere because they’re women and they’re washing clothes just at the well when y’all scrub and use the washboard and then she’d come back and say “No go to town, trouble in town tonight.” Don’t go, stay, stay on base, sure enough. Interviewer: “They had the information I’m sure.” She shared it with us because, you know, we were a meal ticket, we paid her handsomely so she wanted to take care of her job. Interviewer: “What was the name of the town you were close by, do you remember?” Well the town of Pleiku but it wasn’t much of a town, no they had thatch huts and dirt floors but I’ll tell you what’s cool, they asked us to take a load of gravel off the Montagnard villagers and take these– About four dump trucks out there full of gravel. (33:00) Well– So I’ve never drove a dump truck before but, oh well here’s the keys figure it out. So we go out there and Steve it was like going– Jumping into a history book, like a page of thatch huts, women weaving baskets on the side of the road, and you know the mountain yard people. They have an interesting wedding ceremony, they– The groom knocks out her front teeth to signify that she is married, truth. Interviewer: “Wow, her front teeth?” Yeah, that’s the signal that she’s spoken for and then the chief invited us to drink rice wine and he would have a line and “You drink down the line or you a baby.” Well we weren’t big drinkers, we were kids. So I’m rolling around in the back of the dump truck with two grenades, two clips of M-16s and I don’t feel good. So anyway, but that turned out alright cause the Montagnard– Montagnard and Vietnamese people have never gotten along, never ever ever, centuries never gotten along. Interviewer: “Really?” �Jedlowski, Ray Really, always come back. Interviewer: “Think they still are?” Oh yeah for certain, I don’t think it’s ever gonna quit– And hygiene for them, limited, got to go to the bathroom you go. Interviewer: “Right out in public?” Wherever you are. Interviewer: “Male or female?” (34:50) Yup, and the Montagnard women didn’t have bras, saw sleight of their under breast they don’t care. Edit that one out. Interviewer: “Sure, your bathrooms or latrines weren’t there.” Yeah. Interviewer: “And you had a dining facility there too did you, or basically a tent like mesh or something like that?” We just had a room and all the meals were C rations, not MREs, no, packed in 1942. Interviewer: “Wow.” Yeah, Beanee Weanees, ham and egg, you take the lid off the only thing you want to eat, even if you’re gonna shit dice for it, is Beanee Weanees. The rest of it they can keep, grease was this thick. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Wow, anybody get sick off that?” No, but you had a lot of skinny guys because we wouldn’t eat the stuff, it was awful, you know so when we’d write home “Don’t send cakes or cookies cause it’s all gonna be broken when we get it, send us canned goods please.” You know something that we knew was edible and then on, you know Christmas day, you know we had C rations and really always had beer. Interviewer: “You had alcohol?” (36:28) Oh yeah, yeah we couldn’t get toothpaste but we could get alcohol and I went to work for a major castle airline and the commander he says “I’m gonna get a combination safe.” I thought to myself “Oh sure you are, we can't even get the basics and you’re gonna get that.” Well sure enough he got it. So I had to set the combination, I said “Well you want me to tell you what’s the combination?” “No, you just keep the combination if I need to get in there I’ll call you.” That was a mistake, he must’ve had insomnia two o’clock in the morning rookie runners coming to get me because the major wants to get in the safe. So I gotta get up, get dressed, go unlock it for him, open the drawer, and then I gotta go back. So somewhere in southeast Asia there’s a safe that nobody can open. Interviewer: “You think it’s buried somewhere?” It could be but I’ve got the combination. Interviewer: “You’ve got the combo, okay. Anything valuable in there you think anymore?” Probably special orders or probably secret stuff but you know. Interviewer: “So anyway lately I’ve seen on the travel channel and the Food Network they have on cable TV some– Not veterans, I know veterans who have gone back to Vietnam but �Jedlowski, Ray people in food they go to Vietnam specifically Ho Chi Minh City which used to be Saigon, and they say on there that there’s over like 200 different fruits and vegetables in Vietnam. Did you see any of them out there at all?” You know the saddest part of that war? 535– Something like that 548,000 men, are you serious? That’s too much. Interviewer: “It is.” And we didn’t win, to me you owe us– First one of our guys that drops we’re expected to win at all cost, there’s no such thing as ties in war. Interviewer: “I agree, but anyway did you ever do any fishing out there or anything like that?” (39:05) No– Interviewer: “Were you even near a river or a lake that you could do that?” Well we went swimming on Christmas day. Interviewer: “Where the Mekong delta or?” No, we found a lake. Interviewer: “Did you?” Yeah, of course the Viet Cong swim in there too but anyway– Interviewer: “Did you see any over there?” �Jedlowski, Ray No way we had on– Here we had 40 guys right, okay and there’s 20 on the perimeter of the lake and 20 swim with– Our stuff was real close to us and everything. Okay when we’re done swimming we get out, get dressed, and they go in and swim but no fortunately we didn’t– We must have got our schedules okay because they didn’t come in then but if they did it would’ve been a mess, we’d have been in it but it was so hot there. That’s the poorest piece of real estate, they didn’t get their rainy season man it rains every day, mildew, mosquitoes that could probably beat you up. Interviewer: “Did you guys get any bug spray that helped you out?” Well we had netting, each bunk had nets but, you know still you’re out in the field, out in a construction area I mean you gotta deal with it. Interviewer: “Anybody catch the malaria or any kind of–” No, other guys coming back did, that’s it. Interviewer: “Okay so when did you leave Vietnam? Actually before we do that, did you ever go to Saigon?” (40:30) No. Interviewer: “Did you see the Mekong delta or anywhere else like that?” No, we were pretty much confined there because our job was construction so we didn’t get to– We didn’t get to go anywhere or do much of anything other than– Oh we had that– Told you about that day room? We had one movie, Annette Funicello in Bikini Beach Party, we saw that– I could almost recite the dialogue, I mean that was the only movie we had. We watched it 30 times or something and tried to– Interviewer: “In the whole year that’s all you saw?” �Jedlowski, Ray Yeah and we’re trying to trade movies with others. “No, we don’t have any.” Or “No, we’re not trading.” So that was it, and we didn’t have chairs in there either, you sat on the floor. Yeah, and then Christmas day we got our C rations, sit on the floor. Interviewer: “Christmas day of ‘65?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, what– You said there was a mamasan that did your laundry right?” Mhmm, Interviewer: “Is that the only contact you had with any civilians or?” Yeah, you know– And supposedly all the on base Vietnamese are screened, I doubt it, I don’t think that’s true. I mean– See that’s just the problem with that war, you didn’t know a good guy from the bad guy. (42:00) I mean there’s good Vietnamese and bad Vietnamese, it’s not like shirts and skins, I mean you don’t know. So you watch everything and everybody. Interviewer: “Did anybody ever come on base that the kids– Bombs on them or anything like that?” No, that’s why I stayed out of Saigon cause they’d walk in the restaurant and blow it up, and then we had a Vietnamese guy who would run our lawn mower and the lawn mower got clogged with weeds so he put his hand in there to unclog it. So we had to rush him over to the hospital cause half of his hand was missing cause he put it in the blades, he didn’t turn it off. Interviewer: “Well, did he save his hand in the end?” Yeah. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “That’s good.” You know, teach them– It was probably the first time he ever saw one. Interviewer: “Probably, yeah.” But can they make crossbows, those folks are carpenters I’ll tell you they can really, really make things. I tried to bring mine back but they wouldn’t let me [unintelligible] Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t go to Saigon you basically stayed on Pleiku whatever and stuff.” One of the things about– We had the club that we went to, whether– Americans are pretty cool people because when you get into a situation like that, they don’t care how much money you got, they don’t care what branch of service you’re in, you’re American we’re together and we’re on the same team. (43:35) I mean nobody was a stranger any time you went in there whether you knew them or not, you know and I’ve had 1st Cav guys switch T-shirts just for luck and just, amazing, amazing camaraderie, it’s just it’s a wonderful friendship. Interviewer: “Do you still keep in touch with any of them today?” No, I started to do that and I found out some were gone so I said “I’m not doing it.” Oh I went to the wall in Washington, D.C and I didn’t use the book because I want to remember what I remembered last and I didn’t want to change that. Interviewer: “Sure, before we get into your trips after the war like the wall, we’ll get back to the wall again.” Okay. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Okay, when you got your orders to leave Vietnam how did you feel?” Oh I was happy, well just before then I got the reenlistment– Spill “You gotta stay in we’ll make you major, captain, everything. Make you staff sergeant within six months.” I wanna go home, I wanna go home so yeah I was very very happy and very happy to get back. Interviewer: “So they tried to convince you otherwise.” Oh yeah, they want me to stay. I said “I am so not– No, I’m going home.” But now going home, no one talked about the chip. Interviewer: “Sure, real quick I think there’s something I ain’t asked about, about Vietnam. Did you know how the war was going? Did anybody tell you anything, what was going on?” No, because we were so busy doing our jobs that we really– That didn’t really– I guess I didn’t want to know at that time cause I had my job to do, you always had to do it for the war effort. (45:30) So I would hope we were, I mean you know, no I didn’t say what the score you know I was in it but– Interviewer: “Did you have any like– You could listen to any music over there at all?” We made our own with some guys who could sing, play the guitar. Interviewer: “Did you? Yeah, did you have any favorite music back then or favorite bands, songs or whatever?” I’m gonna have to think on that one. Interviewer: “Okay, if you think later that’s fine. There’s a lot of talk of drugs over there, did you see any of that?” �Jedlowski, Ray No and you know what? That’s what ticks me off about that movie Full Metal Jacket, that’s bullshit it wasn’t that much going on and boy did they sensationalize that for the audience. Interviewer: “How about Platoon? That was another one.” Yeah, no I could tell you we had our beer and we had whiskey but there was no– And I ran with all the guys there was no pot and nothing else going on. That’s why I would never watch that movie again, that was a travesty, that did not depict them at all. There was no stoners on there stumbling around. Interviewer: “We’ve had some vets say there was but as you know Hollywood likes to–” Sensationalize. Interviewer: “Big time, yeah.” (46:53) Well all I can say is for our group, civil engineers, it was not. Interviewer: “Just alcohol.” Yeah we had beer, well beer was a quarter, shot of whisky was a quarter so, you know. First of all we didn’t have a place to get it, I mean other than on the construction site or you’re taking a shower or going to the chow hall to eat and then you don’t get a lot of free time to do much, remember we worked 12-13 hours a day. Yeah I mean there was no– And you’re tired. Interviewer: Did you have any time off, like weekends off? Even Sundays?” Sundays we got off and the only we had that we could play was horseshoes and we had one base football and someone kicked it in the minefield and one of the Vietnamese that used to work on the base tried to get it, blew himself up, so that left us with the horseshoes and that was it. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Did you see that happen?” No, no I heard it though. Interviewer: “You heard it go off?” Yeah, so– Interviewer: “But it was a Vietnamese that went out there?” Yeah, he thought that he could get the football and keep it or sell it back to us, that was a mistake. Interviewer: “Okay, so then when you went home did you fly out of Saigon or right off the base you were at?” (48:15) I flew out of Pleiku, yeah the 141 Starlifter again. Interviewer: “Okay, then you went back to Hawaii did you?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and then back where after that?” Back home to Dearborn, Michigan. Dearborn Heights, Michigan. Interviewer: “Okay, you didn’t have to go back to Andrews Air Force Base?” Oh yeah I’m sorry, yeah Andrews– Yeah we had to fly back to Andrews fist and then I got discharged but when people– Is it time for the chip yet? �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “What’s that?” Time for the chip part? The chip is when you come home and you’re still there. Interviewer: “Okay, go ahead.” Okay, you know physically you know you aren’t but man I had a hair trigger temper. My mom and I went out to dinner at this lounge and then the bartender wouldn’t serve me because he told, you know told me I was too young to have a beer and I showed him an I.D– My I.D, a military I.D and he still wouldn’t and I’m not proud of it but I punched him and my dad of course defended me and my mom saying “Just get the hell out of here.” And so we got up, threw over some tables, he was out taking a nap and same as my daughter, she got back from Afghanistan and she’s an MP in the Army and I stood behind her. She asks me to be in front of her even though clearly she knows I’m dad but you’re not– It takes a while for that to go away. (50:15) I mean I had that for about six months, I mean just hair trigger, you know we’d fight over the drop of a hat because I was just wired I guess but it got better, I mean in time. Let me say just cause they’re back don’t mean they’re really back. Interviewer: “So you got back, you got discharged in ‘66 you said? And at that time Vietnam really started to kick off.” Yeah. Interviewer: “You saw the protests obviously around the country, Johnson and McNamara escalating the war big time. How did you feel about that when you got out? Did you feel you should go back in or did you just feel– Knowing what those guys are probably heading to, how did you feel?” I think we could’ve done a better job, I know it– First of all the French were there and they got their ass kicked, there’s a statue of the French– For the French because they couldn’t win there �Jedlowski, Ray and so we’re there I mean I got no issue with McNamara, yeah okay. We– It wasn’t our war, you know but be that as it may we were told to go, we’re going. So you know I see the draft dodgers and burning their draft cards or going to Canada, you know this is your country. You don’t want this anymore, you don’t want to pay the price for freedom? Well good luck in Canada. Interviewer: “Then when– What was that– Did you even watch the news when the war really got going?” No, I figured it was out of my hands. I did what I could while I was there and, you know that’s all I could do. I had a clean conscience and I felt good about what I did. Interviewer: “Now Johnson wouldn’t run again and probably because of–” The lame duck? (52:22) Interviewer: “Well yeah, because of the pressure from protestors and the Vietnam war very escalating that him and McNamara did. Then Nixon won the election though, how’d you feel about that, did you think he’d do something well over there, did you think– What did you think?” No, I didn't think that Nixon was gonna change anything. I just, you know he was in politics and with him in the Watergate thing and I’m sure there’s other– He’s very political just do whatever will pacify you and play the game, so no I don’t think so. Interviewer: “I know he ordered some strikes against Cambodia because of supply lines there from the Viet Cong.” Well you know what they bombed Hanoi twice, there was a Viet Cong general that said “If you had bombed us one more time we were gonna surrender.” And then they stopped the bombing after two bombing runs. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Wow, and then all of a sudden, you know Nixon resigned, Watergate and then our local man Gerald Ford took over.” Good man. Interviewer: “Yep, he was, I even had the chance to meet him once too.” Did you? Interviewer: “Yes I did, but anyway did you feel Ford was– Did you feel sorry for Ford with the mess that was given to him?” I did. Interviewer: “Did you think there was any way out of Vietnam at that time or did you think he had to just go right through with it and continue the evacuation, anyway how did you feel?” (54:05) I don’t think we should have evacuated anything, I think if we would’ve followed through and quit having it be a political war than a real war we wouldn’t have had to evacuate. They would’ve been gone, Hanoi would’ve surrendered, everything would’ve been different but no, that’s on us. Interviewer: “But was there anything you think Ford could’ve done, he got denied Congress any aid to solve Vietnam but by that time pretty much the war was probably over with, don’t you think?” Yeah, and then when we got back you know the cat calls we got. Interviewer: “Did you get any people say anything to you when they knew you was in service?” �Jedlowski, Ray Mhmm, I reacted to it. Interviewer: “I mean you’re good to share with me, if not if you don’t that’s fine. A lot of veterans have told me what they did to so.” I punched him, I did and I’ll punch every god damn one of them that does that. How dare you, how dare you spit on me, how dare you call me a name. Were you there? Did you put any skin in the game? No, you did not, that's why I’m gonna knock you on your ass, that’s just the way I feel about it too. Interviewer: “Well it’s a normal reaction, you know.” Yeah and then– I gotta– 580,479 I just remembered what we lost, are you kidding me? I mean God bless desert storm, desert shield and all those, and they got ticker tape parades and then they have the audacity to take us down to Fifth Third Ballpark and honor us? (55:45) That’s like, Steve if I forgot your birthday and 30 years later “Hey Steve come on out listen about your birthday, here.” No stick it, you know I don’t– What? That’s even [unintelligible] I mean that’s crazy and– Interviewer: “But anyway, what did you feel about the Vietnamese refugees that Ford helped get over here, get them homes? Did you think– Did you think that was a good thing he did, Cambodian refugees too?” I don’t know how I feel about that, I got a neighbor who’s Vietnamese, I got trouble with that. I hear them talk in Vietnamese and I speak a little Vietnamese. I’m not comfortable you know not that they’re bad people, nothing to do with them at all I just– Interviewer: “Does it bring back memories?” It takes me back, I don’t want to go back. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Yeah I don’t blame you.” So yeah, that bothers me. Interviewer: “One thing I have to tell you though, this is coming from a couple of them I know, one’s a friend of mine he’s a cop at Grand Valley, another they helped run the First Wok restaurant there on Alpine, they wanted me to tell you and all the Vietnam veterans thank you very much for helping them.” And God loves them, yeah I would help them again but let’s do the job. Interviewer: “Yeah, so anyway Vietnam war ended and stuff and all this ridicule and stuff like that, then of course you’ve told me how you felt about those that dodged the draft. Now there’s different types of draft dodgers back then there’s all the ones that went to Canada, those that went to college and then those that joined the National Guard. How did you feel about all that?” (57:55) I’m okay with two out of the three, the ones that went to Canada stay there. Yeah if you’re in college, you get a deferment for college God bless you, National Guard God bless you, but don’t go to Canada and run out on your country, don’t do that. Interviewer: “Yeah, so anyway you mentioned the Vietnam wall, when you found out they were gonna build something like that, and it was by a woman named Maya Lin I think she was Vietnamese that designed that really great design, fantastic–” It’s gorgeous. Interviewer: “Anyway how did you feel about the wall when it went up finally?” �Jedlowski, Ray When I went there, again I told you I didn’t look for my friends in the book, but I did kneel down for about 20 minutes and just reflected and said prayers for those that aren’t here, some because they were my buddies and God bless you guys. Interviewer: “Definitely is something worth seeing in D.C right there that was a long time coming.” But I’d recommend, even though you think you would want to see if your friends were on the wall, just remember them the way that they were and then you won’t be disappointed. Interviewer: “Exactly. Did you leave anything at the wall?” Yes. Interviewer: “What’d you leave?” (59:22) A Rose, yeah they had vendors on the street. Interviewer: “Good location too, right by the Lincoln Memorial.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Very good location. Alright now we're back up past ‘82 cause that’s when the wall was put up and stuff, and– Anyway your personal life again, when did you get married?” First time 1968 and that lasted for 17 years but alcohol got the best of her so we divorced. Interviewer: “Okay, any children from that?” Yes, three sons and a daughter. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Okay, what are their names?” Jeff, Cheryl, Wayne, and Trey and Wayne’s a police office in Westminster, Maryland, my daughter’s an x-ray tech, and my other two work for a couple factories there,so doing well. Interviewer: “Now you mentioned up comes Desert Storm when it started– When it came up, I mean we were building forces and stuff over there to stop Saddam Hussein and kick him out of Kuwait. President Bush, first President Bush, H.W Bush being a World War II vet himself he promised the nation this is not gonna be another Vietnam. Do you think he fulfilled that promise after we did victory in Desert Storm or how do you feel?” I think he did because we went in there and took care of business, we did not finish Vietnam, that was never finished. Yes I think he did, now it’s not Colin Powell but who was that other– Interviewer: “Schwarzkopf.” (1:01:17) Yes, smart man and he said that this won't be a Vietnam, we’re gonna do this. Interviewer: “Colin Powell said that too.” Okay. Interviewer: “A couple good generals there.” Yeah, no kidding and no one like since. Interviewer: “And Vietnam veterans too, cause I think they were like either majors or captains during the Vietnam war and stuff.” Schwarzkopf was no dummy, he was very smart. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Very good.” So yeah, I do remember that when our tank was assaulted they were holding up their hands and surrendering and one of them said “What took you so long?” They didn’t want no part of this. Interviewer: “You mean over at Desert Storm?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah I got some friends that was an MP unit from Owosso and they said that they were surrendering in droves coming to their plant.” Yeah like “Hey over here!” Interviewer: “Yeah they were given– My friends that were there as MPs they were giving them money and stuff and ‘Here you can have this.’ You know.” (1:02:15) Yeah just take me away. Interviewer: “Yeah, but anyway then of course came the Iraq war and the Afghanistan, did you– You said you had a daughter that was there?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, what branch was she in?” Military police. Interviewer: “Army?” �Jedlowski, Ray Yes. Interviewer: “She active duty was she?” Oh yeah, very active duty. Interviewer: “She wasn't guard or reserve?” No, she was there. Interviewer: “How was it for her?” Well, she to straighten them out I guess she told me she’s tired of hearing, this is Afghanistan the folks go “Well why are you here, you’re supposed to make babies.” And you know just that condescending stuff. So, her name is Liza, Eliza straightened them out very quickly and then she was on patrol with an Afghanistan soldier but there was a dog underneath a tree trying to stay cool. (1:03:10) Well this Afghanistan soldier is throwing rocks at him, my daughter turn the saw– You know what a saw is, that machine gun that just throws out a thousand rounds a second or something, she turn it on him said “You throw one more rock I’m taking you out.” They have no– Everything is defined women are low as can be, dogs are– Interviewer: “Even lower?” Yeah, even lower. Interviewer: “Yeah a lot of middle eastern countries are like that, I noticed that when I was in Saudi and Kuwait, same thing. Not the dogs but I noticed the women, our women got treated pretty bad, not by us but by them.” Yeah, and if any of the other MPs notice that she’s having a bad time with one of the Afghanistan soldiers, well it’s not good something’s gonna happen, but no she did good. �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “Did you give her any kind of talk when you found out she was going over there or did you just wish her well, give her a hug and a kiss.” I actually wanted to break her leg so she wouldn’t have to go. She’s tough, she’s got good genes in her she’ll be fine, but stubborn, God she’s stubborn. Nope, she did good and she’s an NCO now. Interviewer: “Oh is she still active duty?” Yeah, still active, she’s at Fort Knox. Interviewer: “Oh Kentucky.” Yeah, Elizabethtown, Kentucky. Interviewer: “Is that still the Armored Division is it or is it just– Is it something else now.” (1:04:50) No, there’s tanks there but I don’t think– As a matter of fact I think it is, right outside the base is Fort Knox. So she’s doing well. Interviewer: “Oh good, yeah.” But I guess she had a– When she got promoted to NCO her duties changed and all of a sudden she’s got people looking for her, well she never had the experience before. So she got a little flustered with the beginning you know, I said “Just like having kids.” I said “You just gotta see what they need, take care of their needs, get them to do what you want to do.” I said “It’ll be an investment.” So, she’s fine. Interviewer: “You remarried again I take it after–” �Jedlowski, Ray Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and just tell me about that briefly. How’d you meet her– I mean how’d you meet your first wife, first?” Met her at a USO dance and went together and just things clicked and we got married and I was in the military then too. Interviewer: “And what was your second wife?” That’s the one that liked the alcohol. Interviewer: “You mean your second wife, the one you’re married to now?” Both of them did. (1:06:15) Interviewer: “Okay, what’s your wife’s name now?” Christie. Interviewer: “Christie?” Yup, she’s wonderful. Interviewer: “Where’d you meet her at?” I used to work for Grabber [sounds like] in Grand Rapids and I worked there for years and she worked there and I did too. We were friends for 10 years, 15 years so finally did it right. Interviewer: “And that’s your second marriage?” �Jedlowski, Ray Third. Interviewer: “Third okay, alright third marriage okay. Alright then real quick we’ll mention the presidents cause I feel your commander in chief is basically how a military runs pretty much.” Yeah. Interviewer: “We’ll start with Kennedy there, how do you feel he ran the military?” Excellent, I do. Interviewer: “Cause he was your commander in chief then.” Yes. (1:07:10) Interviewer: “There was a interview by Walter Cronkite a few months before he was assassinated and he asked him straight out about Vietnam and he says– I don’t know how much, whatever you can get it on Youtube or something like that the interview itself and he pretty much said it’s going to have to be up to south Vietnamese to take care of this war. “I don’t want to send more troops there or back them up” And all that stuff, do you feel if Kennedy would’ve lived on do you think Vietnam would’ve ended the way it did or you didn’t think it made any difference?” I think it would have made a difference because again as great a president as he was he was no nonsense, if he saw a need “Okay the south can’t handle this they need some help.” Maybe because they’re out gunned or something we’d been in it but if he did call that, make that call we’d have won it, oh yes, oh yes. Interviewer: “Real briefly on Johnson.” �Jedlowski, Ray Pass, [unintelligible] Interviewer: “Okay, no problem. Nixon?” Tricky Dicky? Interviewer: “Yeah, same thing? How about Ford?” Yes, good man. Interviewer: “Okay, I’ll briefly go through the next few presidents and then that’ll be it. Carter?” Pants were good. Interviewer: “Okay, Ronald Reagan?” (1:08:33) Great actor. Interviewer: “Alright, you think he did good with the military?” Yes. Interviewer: “George H.W Bush?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, I don’t know if I want to mention the next one or not, should I?” Start with a T? �Jedlowski, Ray Interviewer: “No, Mr.Clinton.” I think him and Hillary are the two crookedest beings walking the Earth, there’s so much– If they dug up all of the real dirt, are you kidding the people wouldn’t believe it. Interviewer: “I was referring to how do you think Clinton ran the military?” He was too busy with– Interviewer: “Other things, we’ll leave it at that. Okay well we’ll stop right there as far as– ” How about Trump? Interviewer: “Well Trump’s still young yet in the office we’ll put it that way.” (1:09:25) Okay. Interviewer: “How about George W. do you think he did alright?” Yes, he did. Interviewer: “Okay, how about Mr.Obama what about him?” I think he was trying to make everybody happy, you know he wanted to be all things to everybody, yeah I think that was– Interviewer: “He didn’t do too bad actually.” �Jedlowski, Ray No, no I’m not– But I think he’s a little short in the spine area where I think he could, I mean could’ve been more decisive. Interviewer: “Sure, alright anyway thank you very much for your service Ray, I appreciate it.” You’re very welcome. Interviewer: “And I’m glad to meet you, I’m glad you let us have this interview and basically anything else you’d like to add, like to say?” Just God bless America. Interviewer: “Okay, are you– You mentioned a little bit earlier, before we end this interview, that you’re finally getting recognition and it’s like salt in the wound. It’s turned around now how people are viewing the Vietnam war, especially veterans.” (1:10:25) Yeah. Interviewer: “How do you think– Why do you think that is?” You know what, I don't have an answer. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JedowskiR2181V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jedlowski, Ray Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02 Title A name given to the resource Jedlowski, Ray (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource Ray Jedlowski was born in Portsmouth, Virginia, in 1942 before his family moved to Michigan where he graduated high school in Dearborn in 1962. Jedlowski’s father was in the Navy during the Second World War and gave his son plenty of exposure to military life in port even though he was not fond of the seas. Since he could not find steady work after high school, he went down to the recruitment office and decided to enlist into the Air Force. He was then sent to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, for Basic Training before graduating onto Amarillo Air Force Base for technical school and administrative training. Jedlowski was then stationed at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland as a Civil Engineer. He recalled how the base went into lockdown following the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963. In 1965, he was deployed to Vietnam and was stationed at Pleiku Air Base near Saigon. Shortly after his arrival, the base experienced a small skirmish, but the new arrivals were not overly concerned for their safety. Jedlowski’s unit was tasked with constructing billets and lodging for the First Cavalry Division after its arrival near Pleiku. At the end of his tour, Jedlowski was relieved to go home and was flown to Hawaii and then back to Andrews Air Force Base where he was formally discharged in 1966. Back home, Jedlowski described the ‘chip’ effect where he was physically at home, but his mind was still as paranoid, wired, and irritable as he was in Vietnam. Disappointed with how the war was escalating and how some Americans looked to dodge the draft, he refused to watch the news, but was still proud of his contribution to the war effort. He was disappointed that presidents Nixon and Ford abandoned the war so quickly and that, combined with the intensified anti-war protests at home, the U.S. war effort fell apart. He was also conflicted by the construction of the Vietnam “Wall” Veterans Memorial in 1982 in Washington D.C. since he thought the sincerity of the project was mixed. After the end of Operation Desert Storm in 1991, Jedlowski thought the U.S. military and government did a far better job of handling the war effort than during Vietnam. However, Jedlowski is grateful that the general, domestic attitude toward veterans of the Vietnam War has changed for the better. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hammond, Steve (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/34987d470face9b58599784142077064.mp4 6e283d4ad9fc2a8a5d8375f893db47ad https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f98e2da1cde7a61b070bbb42f97cde7.pdf 435e680b74fece730899cb21838f4a67 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project James Jefferson (00:47:13) (00:15) Background Information • • • • James was born in Newark, NJ on July 13, 1924 James grew up in a community where Italians, Jews, and African Americans all got along He worked while in high school and had always wanted to be in the Navy He decided he wanted to join the Merchant Marines and lied about his age to get in (1:30) Basic Training • • • • • • • James had basic training in Rhode Island He worked with maintenance and operations of marine engine equipment It was November and very cold near the New York harbor James took classes where he learned the operations of engines and boilers He was then tested to work in the engine room James was the only black man out of 95 people in the class, but never felt any discrimination He did began to feel discrimination once he began working on the ship (6:20) First Ship Assignment • • • • • • • James was assigned to work on a golf oil tanker His first day entering the steam engine room was amazing His title was fireman, but had been told by the chief engineer that no blacks could operate as the fireman James challenged him by pointing out that the union shop steward who had given him the assignment would not like being overruled, and the chief signed him on James had a very rough time on the ship, due to constant supervision from the still unhappy chief, but it helped him to become a strong fireman and learn the job quickly James went on a voyage to Liverpool in February of 1944 James was also the youngest man on the ship (18:25) Crewmen • James got along with most of the other men on the ship from the engine room • He felt that there were a few ignorant and racist people on the ship, but most of the men were civil to him • James thought that the natives from Spain, Italy and the Middle East were all very friendly �• He was disturbed by the “untouchable” population in India and the way that they were treated (31:10) End of the War • In May James had been coming back from a trip in the Pacific • He arrived in Los Angeles and everyone was celebrating • The government had been storing oil and supplies on barges and offering commissions to merchant seamen to live on the barges and keep them secure • James had been thinking about taking the commission, but was discharged shortly after the war (36:50) More traveling • James continued to sail until 1971 • He traveled near the Suez Canal, around Africa, and to Somalia • James felt that the liberty ships were the worst because they were slow and cheaply made • The US began to focus more on speed and outsource ship building to other countries • There are no more merchant marines and the US buys all their ship from foreigners • After retiring from the Merchant Marine, James began doing industrial maintenance for the military at Fort Dix � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JeffersonJ Title A name given to the resource Jefferson, James (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jefferson, James Description An account of the resource James Jefferson was born in New Jersey on July 13, 1924 and grew up in an integrated community. After high school James joined the Merchant Marines and was trained on Hoffman Island in New York Harbor. He enjoyed the training and did not feel discriminated against there, despite being the only black man in his class. When he signed aboard his first ship, however, he had to deal with a racist chief engineer who tried and failed to keep him off the ship. He describes some of his experiences in sailing around the world during and after World War II. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Merchant mariner World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Merchant marine--United States Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/640b065d26d6919cd6b79514957581af.mp4 1516c05f68cfc32e41cbad34797fda60 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4d49b9ee8293c7a27b139ac7a7429138.pdf 9395dc1d44c0df6332e8e3319df35fbf PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Harry Jelsema World War II Total Time: 0:52:30 Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (0:00:15) • • • • Born on a farm in Allegan, MI Father was a vegetable farmer Went to school through the 8th grade. He was the only brother who worked on his father’s farm. Was able to obtain several deferments which allowed him to stay out of the service for a time to help out on the farm, but was finally drafted into the Army in July 1944. Training (0:04:51) • • Was sent to Camp Robertson, AR near Little Rock. This was where he got his basic training here. After basic, was sent to Camp Kilmer, NJ which was a staging Area. He then boarded the Queen Mary and crossed the Atlantic in January 1945. Active Duty (0:08:01) • • • • • • • • • • • • Landed in England, and stayed 3-4 days and then went on boats to Le Havre and there they got on troop trains to the front lines of combat. (0:12:13) Was taken to a replacement depot, and was directed by officers to their assigned units. Hi3s unit was in the Hurtgen Forest off of the immediate front line. He got there after the heaviest of the fighting. Joined a rifle company of the 121st Infantry Regiment of the 8th Infantry Division . It was snowy and cold when they got there. They would keep warm by putting on extra clothing. They moved out from their holding pattern after 10 days. This was when they moved out of the forest. (0:21:40) They crossed the Ruhr River and then the Rhine River and fought some with the retreating Germans. The terrain in this area was mostly a farming region. He had some contact with civilians. (0:25:15) Took many German prisoners during this time. (0:26:20) Saw different units of black troops during his time over there. (0:28:05) Ended up in the northern part of Germany, where they made contact with the Russian Army. Lived in un-occupied houses after the War officially ended, and their unit did not have any specific assignment while they were there. �• • • • • • • (0:30:20) Got back on a boat to come to the states, where he was supposed to do a week refresher course and then was supposed to be shipped over to Japan, but they surrendered before they could get to the Pacific. He was subsequently shipped to Fort Leonard Wood., MO where the 8th Infantry Division was disbanded. He was taken into the 2nd Infantry Division. He was then sent to Camp Carson, CO and was there for 6 months. While he was at Camp Carson, he was transferred into the Company HQ and was assigned to what amounted to essentially a 9-5 job. He would occasionally hitchhike to Denver on his time off. Was discharged in middle 1946. Was assigned to carry a bazooka, but never actually used it in combat. Post-Service (0:36:40) • After he was discharged, went back to Michigan and worked in a factory and as a truck driver. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JelsemaH Title A name given to the resource Jelsema, Harry (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jelsema, Harry Description An account of the resource Harry Jelsema was born to a farmer in Allegan, Michigan and served in the Army during World War II. He was drafted in 1944, and sent to basic training and after that to Europe, where he was a bazooka man. He fought in Northern France, Belgium, and Northern Germany, eventually meeting the Soviets. He was then shipped back to the US and was supposed to go to Japan, but the war ended before this could happen. He worked a desk job at Fort Carson, Colorado until he was discharged in 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-11-11 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a021bf5af175360e617cb9bf2f1731fe.mp4 e78dccfb87fac6953ea01aeb246ffc79 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c9e2853ef112be8fad9745b9ec3ca633.pdf e7725b2ce302134f434dca928ca91849 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Richard Jeltema (32:32) (00:22) Background Information • • • • • Richard was born in Grand Rapids, MI in 1927 His father worked in local trucking He went to Davis Tech high school Richard heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor on the radio He was going to be drafted into the Army so he enlisted in the Navy (03:54) Training • • • • • • • • • • Richard was sent to Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago, IL He didn’t get to finish high school, but he got enough credits from enlisting so he did graduate Boot camp was about 2 months long Richard chose to go into the submarine service He was sent to New London, CT to go to sub school Richard took classes on all of the systems of the sub for 3 to 4 months When he was in high school he was in machine shop They trained on WW2 subs He was first in the engine room and then moved into the auxiliary systems room Richard was stationed at New London for about 5 months (12:35) Deployment • • • • • • • • • • Richard shipped out on a troop transport ship to San Diego, Ca and then to Pearl Harbor He joined the Sea Dog sub with about 6 other new men on a 65 person crew They would go out to sea for 4 to 6 weeks at a time About 75% of the time they were on the surface He went to Guam, Okinawa, Australia, China, and Russia In China they were hit by a destroyer and it bent the periscope, so Richard had to make a plug for the hole when they took the periscope off Richard thought that China was dirty and poor, but things were quiet there They looked for mine fields off the coast of Russia for a week The sub didn’t stay in one place for that long They went to Melbourne, Australia and were able to go swimming on the beach �(20:19) Conditions • • • • • • • Richard liked being on a sub There were not any African Americans on board because everything was still segregated The officers were very friendly They would play cards, read, and ate well Sometimes they would be accompanied by other ships Richard was on the sub for over 2 years; most of the time the sub was at ports The sub had pretty much the same crew the whole time (27:51) Discharge • • • • Richard finished his service in December 1948 Richard went home and managed a gas station Then he worked at GM until he retired The Military made him more mature and built up his confidence � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JeltemaR Title A name given to the resource Jeltema, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeltema, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Jeltema was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in December 1927. He enlisted in the Navy during high school. Richard chose to go into the submarine service and was stationed in New London, Connecticut. He was assigned to a submarine in Pearl Harbor and went to places like Guam, Okinawa, Australia, China and Russia between 1947and 1948. While working on the sub Richard was a mechanic in the auxiliary systems room. The sub mostly patrolled, but on one occasion searched for mines off the coast of Russia. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-02-17 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/89121350956e19449a4a6cf3d60c4433.pdf 6c979ca3886396a56e6072f153ac0876 PDF Text Text Jodilyn Jenkins Prompts Did you move off campus suddenly due to COVID-19? What was that experience like, what kind of help did you have? Do you still have personal belongings on campus? 04/01/20 On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, I drove twenty minutes from Grand Valley State University to my hometown, Grandville, to vote. I stopped by my house and ate dinner with my younger siblings and parents, then waved goodbye and told them I would see them in a month or so. Maybe I would come home for Easter. Even though I lived so close to campus, I didn’t go home very frequently. But I was about to be back home much sooner than planned - a lot can happen in 24 hours. The next morning, the atmosphere around campus and in classes had shifted. People, myself included, were paying close attention to the news and watching as colleges and universities began closing in an attempt to slow the spread of COVID-19. I wasn’t caught completely off guard; I had been following the spread of the virus quite closely, as my hostbrother is from China and was concerned about his parents. I knew that the new cases of the coronavirus kept popping up, and that many more cases were probably left undiagnosed. It still felt strange how quickly everyone’s attitudes changed once they started realizing that this global pandemic would have very real, close-to-home impacts. I got back from my run with a few other girls from the running club that Wednesday evening, and as we were stretching and casually talking, someone opened their email and read the letter sent out to all Grand Valley students, staff, and faculty: school would be closing and students living on campus were recommended to leave as soon as possible. All attempts at stretching were abandoned - the indoor track was bursting with storytelling and shouting and nervous laughing. The sprinters and distance runners even started talking to one another. That night I said goodbye to my “freshmen squad” (we chose to tap feet instead of hug), and I realized I probably wouldn’t see them for a while. I called up my brother and we decided to pack up and leave that night. I could have stayed an extra day, but there was one silent reason I was happy to be headed home: I hadn’t slept for a few nights in a row, and had gotten an average of three hours of sleep a night for the past weeks. I was struggling with insomnia, and sleeping at home seemed to help slightly. I packed quickly and messily, throwing clothes into bags and tossing school books into my backpack. I craved some sleep, even though I knew that was a pretty narrow-minded and selfish reason for feeling relief to be headed home. I picked up my brother, Ben, from his dorm. Ben’s friend, Finn also came with us, as he planned to stay at our house for a few days until he could find a ride to his home in Eastern Michigan. Our tiny car was jam packed with bags, which showed what was left unspoken between the three of us: even though school had technically only shut down for twenty days, we knew it wasn’t likely we would be back. Throwing all of our things into the car that night was a strange feeling. There were people carrying laundry baskets and suitcases out of their dorm rooms. The campus roads were lined with cars. People were moving. Everyone was jittery and anxious. When I got home, �the jitteriness and anxiety stayed with me that night and didn’t give my insomnia a break. Although I assume even people without insomnia weren’t sleeping well that night. The next morning, I drove back to Grand Valley and rescued my plant (lovingly named Ursula). I didn’t want her dying! More importantly, I picked up necessary medication that Finn had left in the refrigerator in the dorm kitchen. While picking up his medicine, I ran into my good friend Bri, a girl on the running club who I ran with and ate dinner with every day, including the night before. Bri had already told me she did not plan on coming back to Grand Valley the next semester. She lived in a single parent home with many siblings, and the cost of Grand Valley was just too high. It was then when I realized I probably wouldn’t see much of Bri again. I had spent my last day in the running club with her. I had eaten one last dinner in the cafeteria with her. “No, Jodi, don’t you worry, I’ll be seeing you in two weeks!” she shouted before shutting her car door and driving away. I laughed. I wished I had her confidence. I glanced at the window to my dorm, glad I had said goodbye to my roommates last night. Finally, I bought a bag full of granola bars from the convenience store on campus, figuring I should get the most of my meal plan. I drove home, gave Finn his medicine and plopped down in my room, unpacked bags surrounding the floor. My sister came into my room, smiling and singing that she was happy I was back so soon. “On Tuesday you said you wouldn’t see me for a while, and now here you are! How crazy is that?” She couldn’t quite wrap her eleven year old mind around the seriousness of the whole situation. “You’re right,” I agreed, “pretty crazy.” How are your online classes going? What kinds of messages have you received from professors? How are other students handling the changes? How are you handling it? Are you involved in student organizations, sports or clubs? How has COVID-19 and campus response affected those? What is happening in your daily life at home? How are your parents/friends/partners/etc. doing? 04/03/20 During the first week of online classes, my average day was spent behind a computer, at the dinner table to take a break and eat a meal, then finishing more work on the computer and heading to sleep. I have never been busier with assignments and video calls, and my inbox has never been fuller. After the chaos of that first week died down, I began to fall more into a routine. I wake up around eight in the morning, do a few hours of school each day, leave time to help my younger sister with her elementary school work or to play outside with her, do another hour of homework, and make sure to run. I don’t run because I think it’s good for me, or I am trying to get in shape, I run because that’s what I have been doing for the past five years, so it’s one thing that feels consistent. I have control over it. I may not have control over how certain family members are interacting with each other, or over how the nation feels more divided than �ever, or how the government is handling this global pandemic, but when I am running, I decide how fast to move my legs, how far they will take me, and where I will go. I know a racing heart and difficult breathing are symptoms of anxiety - something I only struggle with when trying to sleep - but when I run my heart rate can increase and my breath can quicken and my body allows it all to feel natural. So I keep it in the routine. I also try to connect with a few friends each day, whether through a quick text or a video call. My family is also adjusting to this new “routine,” but in many different ways. My mom, a biology professor at Grand Valley, wakes up early and films videos on mitosis and meiosis and transcription and translation and then attempts online office hours. She has set up a card table in her room and a “do not disturb” sign on the door, which is perfectly reasonable, as there are seven other people roaming around our one-story house. My dad, an administrator at an elementary school, also uses the card table to run his meetings, interviews and phone calls, and whatever other business administrators attend to. My two brothers are back home from university as well, and are adjusting to online learning. Like me, they are both freshmen in college. Yes, we are triplets. No, we are not identical, and if that was the first thought that crossed your mind, I would suggest popping in on my mom’s video class for a quick lesson in biology. Anyways, Ben also attends Grand Valley, and seems to be adjusting very well (he is a computer science major and is having no difficulty dealing with technology), but Chris, on the other hand, attends a small school in Indiana and is a music education major. The majority of his classes are music lessons, usually accompanied with other instruments. The switch to online learning has been more of a challenge for him, but I am happy to hear our house ringing with music again, whether it’s the powerful piano, the squeaky violin he is trying to learn, or (his favorite) the confident and swinging saxophone. To be honest, I am not very pleased with the violin, but it felt rude to leave out. My host-brother, John, is a senior in high school and also switching to online learning. His parents live in China, and he has been caught up with all the coronavirus news before anyone in West Michigan was even talking about it. John moved in with my family the same exact day Ben and I moved out to live on campus at Grand Valley, and was planning on going home before Ben and I returned. It wasn’t until the night Ben and I drove back that we realized we did not have enough beds in our house for everyone! Ben cleaned out and dusted the closet under the stairs and has been sleeping there, much to my mother’s concern about his allergies. My two younger siblings, Nathan and Faith, are also starting online learning. Nathan is a freshman in high school, and Faith is a 5th grader. Nathan sleeps in and does as little work as possible to achieve a high grade. He seems to have “natural intelligence” and can get away with it. Online learning is more of a challenge, however, for a 5th grader. I am impressed with Faith’s teacher, who is providing worksheets and books to read. But the school can hardly expect every student to have a computer, especially if that student is eleven years old. Faith does what she can, but with a learning disability in math and a mother who is practically a mathematician and certainly not blessed with the patience of an elementary school teacher, Faith’s daily routine usually ends with a door slam and crying. To add to the noise, the family dog recently recovered from pancreatitis, and now has the energy of his puppy days, barking nonstop at every person who walks by - and given that there isn’t much else to do except take a walk, there are a lot of families who walk by. I love my noisy home. It is not very big, it has fights (with eight stubborn people under one roof, that’s no �surprise), it runs out of hundreds of dollars worth of groceries in a day, but it is home. I love the people around me, and my neighborhood has some wonderful neighbors. I know that with the “stay in shelter” order that is necessary right now, many people are returning to abusive homes, or homes without food, or homes that cannot even be called a home at all. Even though living this new routine feels strange to me, and I know I should be back on campus, and nothing feels “ideal” right now, I know I am fortunate to feel safe and loved where I live. Do/did you have a job on or off campus? What kind of work did you do, and how has that been affected by COVID-19, lock-downs, and quarantine? Are you or anyone you know sick? What symptoms, response from medical personnel? Getting COVID testing? 04/03/2020 No one I know has tested positive for COVID so far. However, I have a feeling that my uncle had the coronavirus, but it went undetected. He flew to L.A. to visit a good friend about a week and a half before Grand Valley went into online learning. I visited him over my spring break, and he seemed to be in great health, but a few days later, he came down with an awful fever and a cough. He wasn’t in bad enough shape to have to be admitted to a hospital, but with his travel to California, and the fact that he rarely catches the common cold, he was suspicious that he had COVID. He wanted to get tested because when I had visited him, my grandparents had come with me. He had hugged them and exposed them to whatever germs he was fighting. He called multiple hospitals and doctor’s offices, but could not get a test. He has since recovered, and neither my grandparents nor I came down with any symptoms. My grandma, never one for long phone calls, called me up and told me and the rest of my cousins that we shouldn’t come visit, because “if either me or your grandpa gets sick, we’ll both be goners,” then proceeded to hang up the phone. I have had the chance to video call my grandparents, and they (thankfully) are taking the “stay home, stay safe” order very seriously. They are having groceries delivered to their front door, and using gloves to get the mail. My grandma is working on sewing masks that she could donate to hospitals and my grandpa is taking the time at home to learn a new skill that he hadn’t practiced much in all 79 years of his life: cooking. He told all of this to me in an email, the only form of “social media” my grandparents have. I am extremely grateful for their health. It does feel strange, though, a bit like I’m leaning over an edge and waiting for the fall that hasn’t yet come. Everyone I know is healthy, in comparison to other counties, Kent County, where I live, doesn’t have a huge sickness or death rate. Everyone is outside enjoying the nice weather, staying six feet away from neighbors, calling friends, stressing about work and jobs and how to manage with no paycheck, and all wondering: when is it going to hit? And I’m sitting on the floor of my room, sun shining through my window, typing out my thoughts, waiting right along with everyone else. 04/04/2020 �I Could Use A Kate Hug Right About Now We have an “I’m happy to see you” hug, An “I love you so much” hug, A “laughing too hard and need someone to lean on” hug, A “before a nerve wracking event” hug, An “after it’s all over” hug, An “it’s going to be okay” hug, An “I’m so proud of you” hug, An “I will cry with you” hug, A “you are so strong” hug, An “I don’t want to say goodbye” hug. I miss them all. So promise me, when this is all over, To hug me for a very very very long time. I am a hugger. I hugged one of my best friends, my roommate, goodbye almost a month ago, when we packed up our things from our dorm room and headed home. She lives less than ten miles away from me, and I have been to her dad’s apartment to drop off a few things. I stood in the doorway and we talked, but made sure to not get too close. On March 21, I ran with three girls I went to high school with. One of the girls, Kate, is another big hugger, just like me. Even though it is fairly easy to stay six feet away while running, that day was the last day I ran with her (or anyone) because we decided it was safer and more responsible to run alone. We ran ten miles that day, down a wide trail, and at some point one of the girls stopped to use the bathroom. As we were waiting, Kate, standing at the opposite end of the trail, looked up at me and asked, “how are you?” I shrugged my shoulders. “I am just okay.” She hugged the air and I did the same, wrapping our arms around our own shoulders. That would have to do for now. It seems selfish and ignorant of me to be writing about a hug right now, when there are a million problems that are worse and I am in an extremely privileged position. But if this writing is ever going to be read in the future by anyone other than myself (which is far-fetched, but an exciting idea nonetheless) then my advice - no matter the situation, or where you live, or what you believe - is to show appreciation and love to the people who mean the most to you. Does it sound naive of me to say? Yes. If anyone is reading this, are their eyes rolling into the back of their head? Probably. I don’t care. I write for myself, so I’m going to go ahead and take my own advice. 04/08/2020 Fragments of the world are calm, in a lull. Kids draw chalk hopscotch courts, hearts, and rainbows on driveways. �Families ride bikes down quiet roads. Neighbors wave and stop on sidewalks to talk. Dogs receive more walks than ever before. Runners, both new and old, fill the trails. Grandchildren sit on their decks calling grandparents. People of all ages read in hammocks, Lounge in porch chairs, And enjoy the sun. I stay outside, journaling in the grass. When I go inside, the constant news updates, The political arguments, The sewing of masks, The “I miss you” texts, And the bombardment of emails Remind me that peace is not as present as it may seem; Remind me that I am not living in a springtime out of a storybook. But at least I have the fragments. I walked the dog this afternoon with my mom, something I did everyday when I lived at home. Now that I’m living with her again, it's a habit I picked right back up. Walking is a habit many people have adopted nowadays. I don’t live in a crowded city, in fact, it’s quite the opposite, I live in a very small, quiet town, so walking outside is not a health concern. I never knew such a small town could hold so many people. I see new dogs, new bikers, and new runners every day. The sun has come out and people are itching to get outside. “It is almost like the perfect spring day with a perfect small town feeling, you know what I mean?” my mom asked as we walked. I knew exactly what she meant. Everyone was smiling, waving, acting more neighborly and polite than ever. Almost perfect. Selfishly, I wonder when I can drive to my best friend’s house and throw myself on her couch again, when I can drive to the beach with no empty seats in my car, if I’ll sit around a bonfire this year with a group of friends - not six feet away - intertwining legs and holding hands. On a more serious note, and a more pressing note, I anxiously wonder if my grandparents will stay safe, if my brother with intense asthma will return to his job at UPS this summer, if my friend in Detroit is staying healthy (and sane) taking care of her younger sisters while her mom works at a packed hospital, if the death rates around the globe will begin to decrease, or if the nation will ever mend its political divide. I never thought I hated the unknown. But I am learning that I hate the unknown only when it was once known and is known uncertain. And those are the thoughts of an 18 year old girl on a walk with her dog this particular “almost perfect” Wednesday in April. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journals Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled. The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context COVID-19_2020-04-08_JenkinsJodilyn Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jenkins, Jodilyn Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-04-08 Title A name given to the resource Jodilyn Jenkins Journal Description An account of the resource Journal of GVSU student Jodilyn Jenkins of her experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic. Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b7a66745ea215e0bc2736060a6b0bdd4.m4v 383bb850d6fc9dd58b65ac321c047f4c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04972d69a48528b42796da7289189efe.pdf 371474edf275f985a93aaeefc2b19f2e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Marilyn Jenkins Interviewed by: Frank Boring Transcribed by: Joan Raymer August 15, 2008 Interviewer: “ Marilyn, if we could begin with your name and where and when were you born?” (02:46:25) I’m Marilyn Jenkins and I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on September 18, 1934. (02:46:29) Interviewer: ”What was your early childhood like?” (02:46:38) Well, I had one sister who married when I was four years old and so I was like an only child within a sense. Probably that was good because times were touch then coming out of the Depression and anyway, I grew up on the near south side of Grand Rapids near the corner of Cass and Hall Street, which was about a long block and a railroad track from South Field where the “Chicks” played. I had a good childhood. During the war dad would pile the neighborhood kids in the car and take them to the lake swimming etc. I have a lot of fond memories of my childhood. Growing up in the neighborhood, it was a neighborhood then and you knew everybody. There was a lot of porch activity at night and it was a good time. (00:02:46:48) Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?” (02:47:42) MY father sold meat for Swift and Company and then again coming out of the depression, at night he would cut the meat for Jim Nader at Nader’ss grocery store on Hall Street, which was right around the corner. I kind of fed into that too because I would go and visit him there and he would bring me candy bars. (02:47:43) Interviewer: “How about your mother?” (02:48:05) She was pretty much a housewife except I remember for a short period of time during WWII she was a “Rosie the Riveter” at a local place here in Grand Rapids. I don’t remember what it was called at that time, but I remember her in the bib overalls and the hat. (00:02:48:06) Interviewer: “Just like the picture.” (02:48:23) Just like the picture, right. She didn’t like it, but she did it for a while. (02:48:24) Interviewer: “When was your first exposure to baseball, or sports of any kind?” (02:48:35) 1 �Well, dad was a real sports fan and frequently on Sunday afternoons he would take me to Valley Field to watch the black leagues play over there and I met some of those fellows that played there. In fact I met one just the other day. Anyway, I liked baseball—he taught me to like baseball—he played catch with me and all that. He wanted a boy, but he got a girl and consequently he was doing something in his short life that he lived after I was born. (02:48:38) Interviewer: “This period of time in America was very difficult economically. How did your family fare?” (02:49:11) Well, dad worked two jobs and mother went to work there for a period of time. We were coming out of the Depression and I don’t know that I was anticipated product there. I don’t know that they wanted another child, but dad would—I think we fared—we always had enough to eat. Dad would exchange coupons for meat, gas and all that. For gas he would exchange with neighbors. They would switch back and forth because he had all the meat, because he was in meat. We got along all right, we weren’t wealthy by any means, but we made it. (02:49:15) Interviewer: “You mentioned the black leagues, but were there other baseball related activities going on around you?” 02:50:00) I don’t recall any. (02:50:04) Interviewer: “So the exposure was through your father and seeing these other players?”(02:50:07) I was always interested. I remember I use to—all sports—scour the Sunday papers for pictures. I’m a U of M fan and I would study those and baseball—different seasons and different sports and I really got into it big time. 02:50:11) Interviewer: “Did you have a radio?” (02:50:30) Yes, we had a radio. (02:50:31) Interviewer: “So, did you hear broadcasts?” (02:50:33) Broadcasts of sports. I would sit and cross my legs in front of the radio and watch— listen to them. (02:50:35) Interviewer: “You said watch, this is before TV.” (02:50:40) This was watch—we had one of the upright radios. (02:50:45) 2 �Interviewer: “I understand from an earlier conversation that tragedy struck your family when you were still quite young and in your teens. What actually happened?” (02:50:50) Dad—when I was thirteen, I think the summer when I was thirteen, he was diagnosed with Leukemia and that fall he passed away and of course that changed the whole dynamics of the family. Now there was just mother and I because my sister had married a Navy man and they were stationed in Long Beach. Anyway, there was mother and I and it changed significantly. I remembered we struggled. I think she got a small pension because he had been in WWI, dad had, and he had been injured in WWI, nothing that affected his walking or his thinking or anything, but I think it was frozen feet and a few other things. Anyway, it changed our lives and what it did to me was—I was thirteen and I was going to South High School. I had to cut right through the alley to get to the high school and I got a job. I don’t know if I was thirteen or fourteen, but I got a job up on Division at a sundry store, a Quick Mart today, and I worked there, not during the summer because that was the “Chicks”, but I worked there after school and I think I was making 50 or 40 cents an hour maybe, but it helped. Mother was—one thing I remember is that we had a car, we had a 1939 Chevrolet and if my memory is correct, in 1947 when my dad died, cars were in great demand. It was in the garage, mother didn’t drive, which was not unusual for women at that time and I wasn’t driving yet, and she had them lined up at her door to buy that car. I remember she got a thousand dollars out of it and it was eight years old. Anyway, that helped. A thousand dollars went a long way then. Anyway, I got a job and I worked right through graduation from high school. (02:01:00) Interviewer: “What did you—I realize you were very young at that time and young people don’t always know what they want to do with their lives, but what were you thinking about? What were you going to do?” (02:53:17) What was I going to do? Right. Well, one thing I had to do was I had to play baseball. Anything more secure or substantial than that wasn’t on my money. I knew there was no money to go to college, there weren’t scholarships and all that business and in what? I wasn’t qualified. I was a good student in high school, but anyway, I had to play ball. When the ball league ended in 1954 I went to x-ray school. I became a radiology technologist at Butterworth Hospital and I worked at that until 1972 I think, but in that interim period of time, I also went to Community College, I went nights. (02:53:28) Interviewer: “Lets get back to that a little later. You’re in high school and at what point did you discover that there was a baseball league? That there was a women’s league?” (02:54:39) I have to go way back. In 1945, dad was still alive, and he saw in the Sunday paper that there was going to be a women’s baseball league coming to Grand Rapids and it was going to be at South Field, which was just a short distance from my house. Summers were kind of—I remember playing softball at Jefferson School grounds, but he told me that I should go over to the field and see if I could get a job, doing what I didn’t know at eleven years old. (02:54:41) 3 �Interviewer: “Let me go back. You said you were playing softball?” Yes, I played on the school grounds there. Interviewer: “But there was no team?” No, just the neighborhood boys, and we set up teams and played there a lot. (02:55:56) Interviewer: “Were you the only girl?” I was the only girl. Interviewer: “So, you already felt that you liked the game? Yes, I liked the game. Interviewer: “What position were you playing when you played with the boys?” Any position. It was just a lot of neighborhood kids and we had a good time. Interviewer: “So there was no official high school girls baseball team?” No, in high school at South, our gym activities included square dancing, kickball, badminton, volleyball, but nothing organized. There may have been archery that was organized, but nothing that interested me. 2:56 Interviewer: “So now your father sees that there is a team in Grand Rapids and he suggests to you to go and check this out. Tell us about the day you went there.” Well, I don’t remember the specific day I went there, but I was pretty timid and I met the groundskeeper there, I didn’t know anybody, it wasn’t a case of who you know, I didn’t know anyone, but I just went over there and I met the grounds keeper and his name was “Chick Batts”. Has anybody else mentioned that name to you? He was probably a fifty year old man at that time and he had a little helper by the name of Pete something, I don’t remember, but the interesting thing about “Chick” was that he only had one arm and I was amazed as I watched him throw a ball by switching the mitt between his underarm of the stub to his good arm. Anyway, I asked him if there was any work I could do and he said, “sure”. 2:57 Well, the first job I did was—this is right at the beginning of the league now, they had cut the grass out because South Field was a football field at that time. They cut the grass out and the diamond, the dirt was full of stones so I picked stones out of the diamond. I don’t know how long I did that. Another job I had was cleaning under the bleachers, which was kind of a fun job because you would find nickels and dimes out of people’s pockets. Anyway, in that period of time, it was just a short period of time, and somebody, I don’t recall who it was, asked me if I would be batgirl so, would I be batgirl, of course I would be batgirl. I was privileged to be in that 4 �position. I became batgirl and I was batgirl from the time I was eleven, which was 1945, until 19—through 1951. 2:58 Interviewer: “Back up just a minute. During the period of time that you were picking up the stones and all that, did you actually meet the players?” Absolutely. Interviewer: “Let’s talk about that.” Talk about being in awe, I got into the game—I don’t know who was batgirl in the beginning, but I became batgirl pretty quick. Anyway, I got into the games free, that was Dad’s purpose in sending me over there so, if I worked I could get into the games free. These women, I was just in awe and thunderstruck by them. A bunch of wonderful women, and I remember they were nice to me too, every one of them was. When I saw that Connie Wisnewski back in 1945, it’s too bad that Connie is still not alive because she would be a wonderful interview. She was the pitcher at the beginning there, and Gabby Ziegler and I don’t know, I could go on with lots of names, but I was just awestruck by them. 2:59 Interviewer: “So, I don’t expect you to remember exactly this moment, but when the first games were being played, what was your reaction to seeing these women playing baseball?” Just astounded. Dad would come over to a few games too. He had to make sure that I was in an all right sitting there because he was that kind of a dad. Anyway, it was just amazing, and then to see the people in the stands was another amazing think. Have you been by South Field here? Interviewer: “Yes.” Of course you can’t tell where it was right now. It had a short right field porch, but anyway—when I think back to the period of time when I was batgirl, the box seats that were right around where I was sitting, the prominent people in Grand Rapids were there and they were supporting this at that time. 3:00 The stands would be full and at one time they built more stand out in the left field because it used to be that you could hit the ball forever out there. The women playing ball—it was phenomenal. I think it progressed though, it progressed from a game of softball to a game of baseball, we know that. Interviewer: “Yes, because they were pitching underhand and side hand and eventually overhand.” In 1947 it went sidearm and then overhand, that’s when Beansie came in, she never would have made it if it hadn’t and she says that. 3:01 Interviewer: “She did say that, yes. Did you have any inkling at this point you’re the batgirl there, that you could eventually play baseball?” 5 �Absolutely, and I had a lot of opportunity too, that’s one thing that was given to me. Batting practice sometimes, as I got a little older, I’d throw batting practice and sometimes I would even catch at batting practice, that’s how I ended up being catcher, or I would roam in the outfield. Oh yeah, I had to—if I hadn’t, not that I was that good, but if I hadn’t had the opportunity in 1952, that’s when I graduated from high school, to play, that probably would have been the biggest disappointment of my life. 3:02 Interviewer: “This might be a stupid question, but what does a batgirl do?” Well, a batgirl goes out and gets the bat after the hitter hits, you see them in the major leagues today too, they have batboy on their back, and you got out and get the bat or they bring the umpire balls, or they also, to get into this a little bit more, you shine the shoes, you carry the bats and balls down to the field from the club house, and you run errands, and you’re in very close contact with the ball players and man did I admire them. Interviewer: “From that period, and I realize that we’re going back quite a distance and you were a very young girl at that time, what were some of the things that you saw that really amazed you? I understand that you’re in awe and you’re watching these women, but somebody hit a homerun or something happened.” 3:03 Well, it would hard for me to be specific, but when I saw the home runs, I saw the no hitters, which in softball was not uncommon, and the competition, that was—I think I really developed the competitive spirit then, although I think it’s calmed down as I’ve gotten older. It was phenomenal. I can tell you, but maybe I should wait until later, one of my biggest thrills playing. So you want to hear it now?” Interviewer: “Sure, while you’re in the mood.” At one point, I don’t remember if it was the last year or the year before—1953 or 1954, we converted to a regulation baseball. Now I loved that because my hands were small and I could throw it better and everything. I think my first time at bat, if I remember correctly, with a regulation baseball; I hit one out of the park. Oh man, what a thrill and I don’t remember if it was South Bend or Kalamazoo, it was one of those two cities. That was a thrill. Interviewer: “Going back again to being a batgirl. You were an only child basically, your father died while you were very young, you’re struggling with your mom to survive, but you go to this baseball team and you were batgirl. These were amazing women, did you get a sense of family or a feeling of family?” 3:04 Maybe a little bit, I never thought of it that way, but I was batgirl when dad died and I remember Dotty Hunter, our chaperone, was living in town then, and I remember she came to see me then and man, that meant a lot. They sent me cards etc., and yeah, they were sort of my family. I never thought of it that way. That was my purpose in life at that time other than looking after my mother at home. 3:05 6 �Interviewer: “When did it—did you develop an idea that you wanted to play on the team or did something just happen, how did that transition from batgirl to trying out?” Well, as I said, I had been terribly disappointed, but I was encouraged by many of them along the way too. I had a pretty good arm, not for pitching because I didn’t have good control, but it was something that I had to do. It was a huge part of my life after dad died and maybe even before. You brought up family and that could be it. Interviewer: “Did you consciously, as you’re watching, you have a job to do of course, you’ve the bats and all this and we can’t downplay this because it’s an important part of the game and you have to do these things, but were there moments when you thought—I’m going to do that?” I don’t know if I ever thought that, but I knew that I wanted to play. I had some thrills, Beansie probably told you about her favorite story about her game in Kalamazoo—well I was catching that game and I wanted to do it, in fact, if I had a choice when I graduated from high school of playing for the “Chicks” or going to college, I’d have taken the “Chicks”. Later on I probably would have taken going to college, but I did that anyway. 3:06 Interviewer: “So, what was the actual transition? When did this transition from batgirl to—did you have to tryout?” Yes, I had to go through that and there were others trying out too. It was in the spring of 1952 was when I was graduating from high school and there were other people there trying out. 3:07 Interviewer: “What were the tryouts like?” Well, they put you through the drills. Interviewer: “So you were at the same field you were at before?” South field—at this point the league had changed significantly and it was at South Field. There were local girls trying out. too. Interviewer: “About how many do you think?” About ten. Interviewer: “So, now you got the baseball field, the manager, was he the one that was setting everything up? 7 �Yes. Interviewer: “So what did you have to do to tryout?” They would hit fly balls, you would bat, you would take infield practice, they would talk to you and I think one of the things, as the league was losing its popularity there, which it did significantly we know that, they wanted a local girl, which makes sense to me. They figured I would bring in some people, but I don’t know if I did or not. Getting back there a little bit, I remember when it was in June of 1952 we were playing—I remember my first game well, but anyway, it was a matter of if I was going to play or graduate from high school. Well, I did the smart thing and I graduated. I went through the ceremony. It was a quandary. My first game I played was at Bigelow Field, I’m sure it was, anyway, I remember well the first batter up was Dotty Key of the Rockford Peaches. I was playing center field then and she hit a line drive right smack at me. 3:08 I think the thing was going up and man, am I glad I caught it. If I hadn’t, it would have gone to the fence and been history. That’s just a side there. I had to play, that was the key. I had to have the opportunity and I’m still thankful for it. 3:09 Interviewer: “Your first game and you caught the line drive, wow.” It came smack at me and if it had gone over my head, it would have gone forever at Bigelow Field. 3:10 Interviewer: “How do you feel about your first game?” Nervous, very nervous. Here I was—the gals were all nice to me, they had known me a long time, but here I was having the first opportunity to do what I wanted to do, full uniform, full everything and butterflies. Interviewer: “But, when you caught that ball?” That helped. That helped a lot. That was the big difference there. Interviewer: “ I played little league and so I do understand the camaraderie. I have never played professionally, but I know that when I pitched and I got right into that zone and the guy swung, it was a feeling of excitement and when you caught that ball?” It was a feeling. You hit that—like this rookie catcher for the Tigers the other night, his first hit is that triple that wins the game. He’ll never forget that, he’ll never forget that. If he never gets another hit, he’ll never forget. 3:11 Interviewer: “Tell me about the uniform.” Well, I think the uniform was in the 1940’s a significant part of the drawing of the crowds, the fans that came to the game. As I remember the 40’s, women didn’t wear 8 �shorts, not in public, I don’t know if they wore them, but they didn’t wear shorts in public. You come out with this—a lot of these gals were really attractive, too-- and you come out in this short uniform with these good looking legs and that uniform was it. There whole purpose of developing this league, or beginning this league, that uniform was a significant part of it, as I see it. 3:12 Interviewer: “I grew up in the 60’s when the mini skirt became very popular and this is pretty close to being a mini skirt and this is the 40’s and 50’s.” Right, I mean the legs are bare from up here to the top of your socks and you know it’s silly to talk about that today, isn’t it? It’s history I know, not that I wear shorts that much anymore, but what you see the girls in today. Interviewer: “Then it was significant, because it was something you didn’t see normally. Rosemary talked about how she was embarrassed to come out.” I sensed that because I had the experience before, you’re embarrassed. Interviewer: “What about as a practical, this is the part that always amazed me, because I’ve seen pictures and film footage of girls, I should say women, sliding into a base. Now, the men had these long protected pants. What was that like?” 3:13 You know, I think it was something that—it wasn’t pleasant and I had some pretty good “strawberries”, as we called them, but it was expected of us. That was—I think and I can say this with a reasonable amount of certainty too, that if you would have put these women in 1945, in a pant, forget it, it wouldn’t have worked. That’s the way I see it. I would have been easier on their legs—I think that was—I’ve heard Dotty Hunter talk about this. That was the magic. Phil Wrigley was really sharp and his advisors there, the way they put things together. The movie depicted that well too. 3:14 Interviewer: “We’ll talk about that a little later. So, you got through your first game. What was the reaction of your fellow teammates to the fact that you caught that ball?” I don’t know that they reacted because they expected me to do it. That’s what I was out there for. I wasn’t any hero. They’re pros and they were good ball players. I wish there was more footage, film footage, of some of those games. 3:14 Interviewer: “But, the cameras were there on occasion, right?” They were there on occasion, right. I remember seeing the only motion picture, so to speak, it was the Kalamazoo Klouters, I’m sure you’re aware of that aren’t you? Interviewer: “We have a whole list of all the teams, yes.” It’s one that Kalamazoo put out and that’s the one thing we’ve seen in the last few years here, but there wasn’t a lot. There were stills, but think back to what film was like then. 9 �My colored pictures that I took in the early fifties are kind of faded. 3:15 Interviewer: “ So, lets go through some of the games you played. You got through the first one, and I imagine your confidence level must have gotten better, so what were the other games like?” Well, I played that first game in center field, but I actually was a catcher, I had been made into a catcher, and one of the first games I caught, Marge Silvestri was pitching and I’m not exaggerating, this was overhand, she had a drop ball that dropped 8-12 inches and of course I didn’t have any experience calling a game so to speak, so she called the game from the mound and told me what she was going to throw, and we won. That was a big thrill too, catching, I came through it pretty good. I don’t have any trouble with my knees so to speak and the only thing I have is a crooked finger right here that was dislocated and never put back in, but I loved catching once I got into it. 3:16 Interviewer: “I never could understand it myself. I was a pitcher.” You’re part of the game. With every pitch you’re part of the game. Interviewer: “What were some of the games like? You quoted one already.” I have a problem pulling that out. They were competitive. I don’t think I specify any particular games. I can’t. Interviewer: “Well, who were the main rivals?” Oh, the main rivals, toward the end—Fort Wayne, Fort Wayne always had a good team, Rockford always had a good team, I think those were the main rivals as I remember. Interviewer: “The one game that Beans was talking about, you were catching. Let’s go into detail about that particular game.” Well, here’s the deal that happened. Mamie Redman was pretty much the regular catcher and I never—my statistics—I caught a lot of games, but Mamie would go back to college when the playoffs started, so I was thrown in as the catcher. She was much more experienced than I was and I tell her to this day—“Mamie, I could hit better and run faster”. 3:17 So, Mamie went back to college and I was thrown in to be the catcher and it was a championship game in the playoffs that year that Beansie pitched and it was in Kalamazoo and it was forty degrees. It was really cold, really cold. Anyway, and I don’t want to take away from her story, but she struck out that last batter and we won it. That was probably both of our biggest thrills. Interviewer. “What about the tension? That was the playoffs, what did you experience?” 10 �A lot of tension. The one thing that I always thought and I still think to this day, catcher’s gloves were hard to break in and we used the regular catcher’s glove—hard to break in and they were expensive. The first one I bought, which we had to buy ourselves, burned up in the fire at Bigelow and I had to buy another one. 3:18 Well, it wasn’t broken in and Beansie thought the ball popped out of my mitt too much. I had a crease in it and in fact, that glove is in the museum here in town now and you can still see that crease. When they had that exhibit I noticed it and I could never work that out. They weren’t as flexible as today’s. Anyway, that three-two pitch that she threw, there was a lot of tension. Beansie was kind of nonchalant on the mound, tall, both she and Connie Wisnewski probably were two of the taller ones in the league. Anyway, she was nonchalant and she fired it and it stuck in my glove. That ball is in Cooperstown today, right where it should be. 3:19 Interviewer: “What were the crowds like when you first started?” They were phenomenal. 10,000 people at South Field, I don’t know where they put them all, but going back, that’s wartime again. Tickets were cheap, people didn’t have cars, but it was on the near south side and a lot of people could walk to the games, including me. Anyway, it really, really was—I think it hit its real popularity in the late 40’s after the war, but then as cars became more available and television hit the scene, it had an affect on it. I think historians say that television and availability of the auto, really changed the success of the league. 3:20 Interviewer: “Just a quick question, how much was your salary working as a professional?” I think it was fifty-five dollars a week, which wasn’t bad. Interviewer: “That was a lot of money back then.” It was a lot of money back then, yes. Interviewer: “And that was helping to supplement your family, your mother?” Right. Keep me going. As you get a little older and in your teens, you need things. You think you do anyway. Interviewer: “What did you do with your money?” Well, I don’t think I had that much, I’m sure. While I was playing, my mother had remarried, so I had a stepfather, so my money I used for myself. Whatever I needed. I think I bought a car. A hundred dollar whopper. Interviewer: “While you were playing as a professional baseball player, did you get an opportunity for travel?” 3:21 11 �Yes we did, we traveled a lot on road trips. One thing I will say—even when I was batgirl, after my dad died Dotty Hunter was a remarkable woman, she was a Canadian, I’m sure you know more about her maybe than I do—anyway, she was out chaperone and I think in the summer of 1948, she took me on a road trip and I think it was to Racine, Wisconsin. Now I hadn’t, we didn’t travel back then, and the one thing I remember about it—I was there and somebody famous died. She took care of me—in 1948 I was fourteen. I had a room in a hotel, with a cardboard suitcase with stickers on it. It was a wonderful experience. 3:22 Interviewer: “Later on you’re playing professionally, do you travel also?” We traveled either by bus or the last couple years, I think we were in these cars and on the side of one of the cars it said, “Here come the Grand Rapids Chicks”. Interviewer: “So, during that period of time then, it was the first time you had been outside Grand Rapids?” Well, very far outside Grand Rapids. When my dad died in 1947, he was buried in Allendale, but no we didn’t do that—you didn’t have drive-in, you didn’t have McDonald’s, you didn’t have all that stuff. Interviewer: “Did you travel out of the country?” No, I never did. Interviewer: “I know they had the American and the Cuban leagues.” I think Beansie did. 3:23 Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about the crowds being huge, 10,000 people. Did you notice the drop off?” Absolutely, I noticed it to the point where, as 1952 was approaching, I was thinking as the crowds were dropping off, I might never have the opportunity to play because they might end the league and by 1954 we could really see that coming. One of the things I remember, was one of my last paychecks was handed out to me in one dollar bills. That tells you a lot. That even told me a lot as a kid because I was only nineteen when this was all over. 3:24 Interviewer: “I know that when we interviewed Rosemary, she was taken completely by surprise of course and she only played at the last.” Yes, she was only there the last three months or so and that was the last season. No, I wasn’t taken by surprise at all. There were rumblings about this—they tried different cities, but each city had its core fan base. There were fan clubs and all that and it didn’t surprise me, really at all. I could see it coming. 12 �Interviewer: “Well, if you did see it coming, were you thinking about alternatives?” 3:25 Probably, quietly—what I did during the years that I played—in the winter I would work at Wilson athletic goods—I think that was the only place I worked. It was a job you could get making golf clubs, putting grips on them—a dirty job, a dirty job, standing in a spot where the glue would drip and your shoes would be stuck to the floor, but when I think back on that, it was piecework and it was good money—good money. When it was over with I had to do something and I had been encouraged—I was a good student in high school and I had been encouraged to do something. Well, Beansie got into x-ray, I don’t know how she did, but she encouraged me and I got into it and actually worked at it—I started in 1955 with my training, that went through 1957 and then I became an RT, a Registered Technologist, and then after that I started going to night school and then I while I was going to night school, I worked for Dr. Stonehouse and Dawson, right over here in the Medical Arts building. I completed Community College and then I went back to Butterworth Hospital and I got into the teaching program there, of x-ray students. 3:26 I had a degree then etc. I probably shouldn’t say this, but I got very disillusioned in the 70’s and I might have been an activist too in the 70’s, but I just was dismayed with patient care. That was after Medicare had come in and the situation kind of changed, but we won’t go into that. Anyway, then I left that and I went to work for a person injury attorney in town. Bill Reamon, he has passed away, but he was one of the hot shots in town and I had a lot of respect for him. I worked for him from 1972 through 1977 and then that firm split and then I did a lot of work for other attorneys because I had learned to put together a settlement brochure that was quite popular with them at that time. 3:27 I worked for Bill up through 1988 part time, but also in 1981 I started doing estate sales in town. I was always interested in antiques so, I was doing estate sales and I am still doing them today. In fact I’m working on a big one right now. 3:28 Interviewer: “Looking back on the last year, 1954, you said that you heard the rumbling and you kind of figured that this was starting to happen and you started to think about what you are going to do next. How did it actually happen to you? How did you physically know? Was it a letter? How did you know that it was over with?” I think it was through the press. I don’t remember a letter or anything. 3:29 Maybe, but I don’t know. If there was one—in 1978 I donated all my stuff to the public museum here and it would be in there if there was. I don’t remember that. Interviewer. “What was your reaction?” Well, I expected it. You can’t deny what you expect can you? It wasn’t the end of the world for me. I was nineteen years old and I had to do something with my life anyway— the funs not going to go on forever, right? Maybe, if you get the right job. Anyway I just went on. Beansie was terribly disappointed and she expressed that to you, and I’m sure a 13 �lot of the others were too. It was like—it was a fact of life, but she stayed here and she has done well here in town. 3:29 Interviewer: “Looking back, how do you think the specific experience of baseball affected you and the person you are today?” Well, I think probably significant to that was and to how it affected me was that it made me competitive, but I think in a good way. It also taught me winning and losing and winning isn’t everything. The way you lose can mean a lot too. I said that before about winning and losing and competitive—having the opportunity to meet all these wonderful women, who at that time that the league ended, we had no idea that all this would be happening. It was over, it was over, but as out association got going and we got—I only saw the local people here after that, but when the association got going, we have had more fun at these reunions than you can believe. 3:30 I wish some of you could have been at the reunion in Fort Wayne in, I want to say, 1984. There was more enthusiasm there and more good times. There were other ones too, we had a wonderful one in Grand Rapids in 2001 which Dolly Wisniewski was the chair person of and she said we helped her, but I don’t know if we did that much, but basically it taught me a lot. It taught me how to travel, how to pack a suitcase, which I don’t know today, how to eat out, because we didn’t eat out, I didn’t anyway. My family didn’t and yours probably too. Anyway, it matured me in a lot of ways. 3:31 Interviewer: “ If you look back on that time when girls, women didn’t really have a whole lot of options. You could basically become of course a mother, a homemaker, you could become a nurse, perhaps a teacher, but there weren’t a whole lot of other things available. After the women’s professional baseball that seemed to change and there are baseball teams and there are girl’s sports and whatnot. How much do you think your experience and the experience of the baseball league had on girls doing things today?” 3:32 Well, I’m led to believe that it had a great effect. My personal experience or contacts haven’t shown me, other than what I have read or seen, but I guess it’s like Title IX or whatever, and all this and I have a good friend who taught in college and she is a good example of this. She had the opportunity to go to college right out of high school and she could either be a nurse, a teacher or homemaker. Well, she wanted to be an engineer, but women didn’t do that so, she became a teacher and had a successful career. She has enlightened me about a lot of the changes because she taught at the local college here. 3:33 I see changes—I’m watching this Olympic team and I’m watching even some sandlot stuff and there’s a lot of women out there that could be playing baseball and they have tried it, but it doesn’t catch on and I’ve said, I don’t think it ever will. It might in another hundred years or something and I want to stress something—there were good ball players, but there are today too, but the skirts, the uniform, the timing, it’s in a little pocket there of history where it fit in perfectly and I don’t know where your going to find another pocket like that. You could make some changes that would be significant, but this was wartime and wartime then was a lot different than wartime now--much different. 3:34 14 �Interviewer: “Penny Marshall decided to make the movie called “A League of Their Own”. How were you contacted about that? How did you find out about it?” I wasn’t personally, but June Peppis in Kalamazoo, she had started the players association and we were getting together someplace and having a great time once a year or twice a year. Anyway, she had these two writers come over one year, I don’t remember their names, but they developed the storyline, never dreaming it would lead into this, but it did. I don’t know how Penny Marshall got involved myself, but I do remember in Cooperstown in 1988 when they recognized us, that Penny Marshall was there. What a brilliant mind. 3:35 She’s brilliant and the way she put together that movie and all the little twists and innuendos and everything else—it’s phenomenal—even to “There’s no crying in baseball”, I don’t think anybody had said that before had they to your knowledge? Anyway, we didn’t even dream at that point yet before the movie, what it meant to other people as whole, as a unit there. Interviewer: “I know and I’ve been told this by other baseball player, the storyline itself was very much fictional account, but overall, did the film express, did it show the experience?” I think it showed the experience beautifully, but I think that the experience that it depicted was more at the beginning of the league. I’m not sure why I say the, I just feel that way. I think it did an exceptional job. Then to get gals that could play ball and all— it was wonderful. 3:36 It was wonderful and it’s going to be a movie that’s going to be around forever I’m sure. It’s going to be a good fill in forever, isn’t it? Interviewer: “I think so and it kind of becomes like the 1940’s classics—it has the flavor of that period and it doesn’t have all the stuff you see in so many movies today. It stands on it’s own. How did the movie affect the association, affect you and the association?” 3:37 The movie had a fantastic effect on the association, not just monetary, although there was some there, but it found players that were off in somewhere, although there had been great searches trying to locate people. It strengthened the association and almost gave the association a purpose. I sometimes struggle with that—what’s the association s purpose right now? Well, it’s to perpetuate the league, but I’m one of the youngest. Rosemary, I said, is younger than I, but I was one of the youngest that was around from the beginning. It isn’t going to be many more years—the associate members are beginning to take over control, which has to be, but they’ve been around long enough where they’re picking up the stories etc. It’s hard to put into a few words what the experience meant to each and every one of them. To Beansie it meant getting out of Okalahoma, to me, I’ve always been here. I went to South High School, played on the same South thing and the connection with Jerry Ford—I’m into Grand Rapids history. 3:38 Interviewer: “That’s why you get along so well with Gordon Olson. He has a love for this place.” 15 �Yes, he’s done a lot for us too. There are a lot of people who have stepped up and really made us feel like somebody again as we get into our older years. Interviewer: “I think one of the things that I found as a documentary film maker, I’ve done films about the Flying Tigers, film about the Red Arrow and during the experience itself you know you’re doing something and in your case your playing baseball and your enjoying it and all that, but you don’t think in terms of what it is going to mean fifty years from now.” 3:39 Absolutely not ever had a thought that way. Interviewer: “But at the same time I think it’s important that historians do take the tie and sit back say, “Guess what, this had an effect and this happened because of what you did during that period.” A time when you were just a teenager.” I was just a teenager, but I’ve had a good life since. I haven’t—I participated in the meeting and the association and the reunions etc., but it hasn’t encompassed my life like some others. Interviewer: “But it’s an important part of your life.” I haven’t forgotten and I never will. I know that dad would have been proud of me had he lived to see me playing. 3:40 Interviewer: “I think it’s important that he encouraged you to begin with.” That was and the boys in the neighborhood added to it too. I remember about ten days before dad died, it was in November, he had me out between the houses in our neighborhood where I grew up, throwing a football. Interesting—that was almost his last day of consciousness. He had just come home from the hospital and he was built-up a little bit. Interviewer: “But your mom got a chance to see your success.” She wasn’t interested in baseball, not at all. I think she knew though—one thing she said, I remember and it was when I graduated from Community College, she said, “You’re the first person in the family to get a degree.” It was only an Associates Degree, but it was a degree, it was putting two years together. I think she was, but I don’t think she ever came over to see a game. I’m not sure about that, maybe she did. 3:41 Interviewer: “Do you have other family?” No, I have cousins that I don’t know—not really. Interviewer: “I’m an only child also.” You miss a lot. 16 �Interviewer: “You do, but on the other hand there’s a comfort level being by yourself that have families don’t have.” That is true. You think a little differently. Interviewer. “I think so and if you actually take time to improve yourself and your independence, it strengthens you, but I have very close friends.” I do too, a lot of wonderful friends and that means a lot. Interviewer: “Are there any thoughts that you want to add?” No, I can’t think of any unless you want to ask me more questions. I feel like I did a decent job for you. 3:42 Interviewer: “This has been a wonderful time.” Do you tell everyone that? Interviewer: “No, but each one is that unique.” We are all different, right. Get Dolly going and you will enjoy her. Interviewer: “Thank you very much and good-bye” Thank you Frank, it was nice meeting you. 3:42 17 �18 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MJenkins Title A name given to the resource Jenkins, Marilyn M. (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jenkins, Marilyn Description An account of the resource Marilyn Jenkins was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1934. She grew up in Grand Rapids and played baseball with family and friends, and played softball with the neighborhood kids. When the Grand Rapids Chicks arrived in 1945, she talked her way into a job with the team and quickly became their batgirl, a job she held through the 1951 season. She played as a batgirl from 1945 thru 1951. Upon graduating high school in 1952, she became eligible to play in the All American Girls Professional Baseball League and went on to play with the Grand Rapids Chicks from 1952 to 1954 as a catcher. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-07-01 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/035dd9ec4996646df9df97cab29de420.mp4 95e8619f52b08c41b878a2b2fb0117e7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d686200e48deeaecfed7b1a2f5b4eedc.pdf f084e88e97b90403e31204167e7e292d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Stuart Jennings (1:00:29) (00:05) Background Information • Born in Benton Harbor, Michigan on 03/28/1926 • Stuart was born into a normal middle class family • The depression had struck while he was growing up and it taught him to share, do things on his own, and treat people well • He was the Lieutenant of Safety School in fifth grade and First Lieutenant in sixth grade • Stuart played baseball in elementary school and was on the track team in high school • He graduated from high school in 1943 (2:20) The Air Corps in Texas • Stuart was a cadet in the Air Corps and became barracks corporal • He served in this position for 2.5 years • Stuart helped wounded patients from hospital to hospital by flying them in a C-47 (4:40) Building Houses • After serving he built houses because there was a housing boom in the US • Stuart found it interesting that you could take a pile of lumber and turn it into a house • He took a break from building houses and traveled to Mexico (6:00) GM • Stuart was a foreman in Dayton, Ohio for 4 years • Yet they eventually asked him to work third shift, so he quit and moved to Florida • He eventually retired and built a cabin in the mountains of North Carolina • Afterwards he and his wife moved back to Florida because they got lonely living alone in the mountains (7:00) Marriage • Stuart and his second wife had six children combined • Together they had nine grandchildren • All six of their children have successful jobs • They taught them to work hard, be honest, and to give 110% (10:30) Working in Florida • Stuart was the manager of a RV manufacturing company • He was the chairman of the research and development product planning committee • He was able to buy a forty foot yacht in Key Largo �(14:15) Hobbies • Stuart enjoyed working with wood • His father and grandfather both worked in the wood business • In his past, he has built 12 airplanes, 16-foot long canoes, furniture (19:20) Experimental Air Association • This group put on yearly air shows and many pilots were volunteers and those who had retired from the service (24:00) Life in the Masonic Home • Stuart and his wife could not easily take care of themselves anymore • Their kids did not feel that they were ready to move there (28:30) His Second Marriage 1959 • His wife, Dorothy, is from Lansing • She was a singer in many different Michigan bands • They met through her brothers (36:15) The Depression • The Depression effected many different people in very different ways • It taught many people his age important values (41:50) The Masonry (42:15) Relatives in the Service • In 1766 Stuart’s family immigrated from England to Virginia • He had two relatives that fought in the Revolutionary War • His two grand fathers fought in the War of 1812 and in the Civil War • His dad was in World War One, he was in World War Two, and two of his sons were in Viet Nam • He has a grandson in the Marines stationed in Africa (50:15) Air Force Training • Stuart was not drafted; he enlisted because he liked planes • Speaking of the men he transported to different hospitals, Stuart said that “some men were wounded so badly, it was pathetic.” • Stuart never went overseas • He thought that joining the service was a good experience, but he would never repeat it • He also feels that every many should have to serve some time in his life � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JenningsS Title A name given to the resource Jennings, Stuart (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennings, Stuart Description An account of the resource Stuart Jennings was born during the beginning of the Depression in Michigan. He said that growing up through that taught him to share, to do things on his own and to treat people well. After graduation Stuart became a cadet in the Army Air Corps in Texas and eventually a Barracks Corporal in the Air Corps. Stuart never experienced combat or went overseas. His job was to fly wounded men back and forth from hospitals in the United States. After his time in the service, Stuart got involved in the post-war house building boom after the war. The business allowed him to make a good living and travel. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-05-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eeef805cd9ebbe7a8780537423b2ec77.pdf a449980cf01283aa623dc5572f7cd1f0 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vitae sanctorum patrum, Sive Vitas patrum [folium 145] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_145Hieronymus1482 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jerome, Saint, d. 419 or 20 Description An account of the resource One leaf from Vitae sanctorum patrum, Sive Vitas patrum by Hieronymus. Printed in Strassburg by the Printer of the “Antichristus” (Heinrich Eggestein) circa 1482. [GW M50968; ISTC ih00222000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Strassburg: Printer of the “Antichristus” (Heinrich Eggestein) Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource de Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1482 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be0ae97d10ce59d0b01fd36e450ea112.pdf 2365a0266705dc1c033dd4fe8b89d777 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vitae sanctorum patrum, sive Vitas partum. [Italian] Vite de sancti padri [folium 185] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_185Hieronymus1475 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jerome, Saint, d. 419 or 20 Description An account of the resource One leaf from Vitae sanctorum patrum, sive Vitas partum [Italian] Vite de sancti padri, by Hieronymous. Printed in Venice by Gabriele di Pietro not after 1474. Illustrated with red and blue rubricated initials. [GW M50938; ISTC ih00228300] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Venice: Gabriele di Pietro Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource it Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1474 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8d7bc1e9b559642765329dbbca36e14.mp4 f09d8774c5b52e8dee4540943b38ac5e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7e21c315e611d5d30274fdb24ab921f2.pdf e5a76fd0e0733e138271130bcbd3c11b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Ben Jerzyk Vietnam War 40 minutes 41 seconds (00:00:32) Early Life -Born in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan on October 6, 1945 -His father was serving in the military at the Soo Locks -His mother was eighteen or nineteen when he was born -His father was on deployment in the South Pacific when he was born -His father was from Chicago and his mother was from Canada -They were married in Canada in 1944 -He is the first and oldest child of the family -He had seven other siblings (six brothers and one sister) -His youngest sibling was born in 1968 while he was in Vietnam (00:03:02) Education -He graduated from Marquette High School in the Upper Peninsula (of Michigan) in 1963 -He attended Northern Michigan University for one year -After that he went down to Menominee, Michigan where his parents were living -Parents couldn’t afford to send multiple children to school at the same time -Went to school on a rotational pattern of school one year, work for one year -He attended Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan -He went to Battle Creek, Michigan for a six month course for physical therapy -This was from January 1967 to June 1967 (00:03:58) Getting Drafted -He was drafted at the end of June 1967 after completing the physical therapy course -From Battle Creek, Michigan he was bussed to Fort Knox, Kentucky -There he was processed into the Army -From Fort Knox he was bussed to Cincinnati, Ohio -From Cincinnati he was flown to Fort Sam Houston, Texas -He was a conscientious object due to being a Seventh Day Adventist -This led to his placement into the medic training program (00:04:52) Medic Training -He was placed into the HUMMRO: Human Military Medical Resource Organization -His training was basic and advanced infantry training combined into one long training session -His class was the first to use electronic education as a means of teaching course material -He and the other recruits would be brought into a room and watched instructional tapes -He also received hands on medical training as well -How to properly apply bandages and give shots -His training class had a total of eighty recruits -Seventy eight of them went to Vietnam -Two brothers were sent to be stationed in South Korea (00:06:05) Deployment to Vietnam -He was deployed to Vietnam in mid-December of 1967 right before Christmas �-Wound up spending Christmas in Vietnam -He was assigned to the 133rd Medical Detachment Company -Worked with two transportation battalions -They had two doctors, a pharmacist, ambulance drivers and other medics on staff -His job was to give patients a preliminary medical screening before being sent to doctor -Check their temperature, blood pressure and other rudimentary conditions -Never ran into any severe illnesses or injuries -He was stationed at a place called Cat Lai -It was on old French military base from the 1950s -Located north of Saigon and south of Bien Hoa -His unit also had access to ambulances and medevac helicopters (00:07:40) Enemy Contact -The Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces stayed away due to the high amount of U.S. troops -At night the Vietnamese would fire six to ten mortars at their base -Afterwards they would immediately retreat -They never consistently damaged anything -A few buildings were damaged once in an attack -He felt fairly safe where he was stationed -Never had to go out into the battlefield (00:08:10) Downtime -He met some soldiers that he befriended and would spend off duty time with them -During downtime there were a variety of things to do -He would play ping pong -The base had a swimming pool and a movie theatre -There was a chapel that soldiers could attend on Sunday -Some days it didn’t even really seem like you were in a warzone -During the day he would never hear any signs of combat (00:08:54) Tet Offensive -During the Tet Offensive in early 1968 the base was mortared every other night -During the Tet Offensive the medical tent and dispensary were hit by mortar fire -He was advised to stay in one spot and make himself as small as possible -Minimized the chance of getting hit while running for cover -Just had to hope that a shell didn’t land close to him, or directly hit him (00:10:17) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -He feels that his two years of military service was an overall good experience -He didn’t want to make it his career, just fulfill his obligation -Advises that any young person that doesn’t have any direction in life to join the military -He enjoyed his time in the Army (00:10:57) Fort Carson, Colorado -His last five months of service were spent at Fort Carson, Colorado -While there he got to see Pike’s Peak -He was there when former President Eisenhower died (March 28, 1969) -Remembers that all the flags were lowered to half staff -Relatively close to the Air Force Academy headquarters there which he found interesting (00:11:22) Training in Saigon -While he was in Vietnam he got to go to Saigon for further medical training �-His education in physical therapy allowed for him to go to the 3rd Field Hospital -He received further physical therapy training there (00:11:38) Medical Career -When he was at Fort Carson he was allowed to go to Denver for further medical training -Went to Fitzsimmons Army Medical Center in Denver for physical therapy training -After the Army he wound up not going into physical therapy as his career field -He went on to become a radiology technician -He had always had an interest in the medical field -He had originally wanted to go into nursing after serving -Kellogg Community College didn’t have any openings so he went into radiology -He wound up having a career as a radiology technician for thirty five years (00:13:15) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -He wouldn’t have enlisted in the Army if he hadn’t been drafted -This is because if he had enlisted he was worried he would have been in a combat role -Due to his religious beliefs that would not have set well with him -Proud and willing to have served his country -He was among a lot of other conscientious objectors in Vietnam -He just had a total aversion to killing, or causing harm to, anyone (00:16:45) Travelling in the Army -When he flew from Cincinnati to Fort Sam Houston he got plane sick -First time that he had ever been on a plane -When he flew over to Vietnam the jet stopped in Hawaii -He remembers that the airport they stopped at had beautiful natural décor -The flight to and from Vietnam was fairly uneventful -When he returned home he was allowed to bring a little less than 400 pounds of souvenirs -He had bought a high end stereo and music, so he brought that home with him (00:19:52) Arrival in Vietnam -His first thought upon arriving in Vietnam was that it was warm -He met a soldier from Battle Creek, Michigan his first day in country -After arriving he had to wait two days to receive his assignment -After receiving those orders he was transported to Cat Lai by jeep (00:21:12) Life at Cat Lai -In Cat Lai they were next to the Saigon River -Transportation battalions would unload barges at Cat Lai -Used Vietnamese and Filipino workers to do the supply handling -American soldiers would oversee the workers -His main job was to aid U.S. troops who got sick, or injured at Cat Lai -Never ran into anything too severe -Gave him a chance to do physical therapy -Feels fortunate to have been at a place where nothing extreme happened -He slept in a tent for medical personnel, but the base did have barracks -He doesn’t recall any American soldiers getting killed while he was at Cat Lai -A few men received minor shrapnel wounds during the mortar attacks -Three or four foreign workers on a barge were killed during the Tet Offensive -Distinctly remembers the smell of the bodies after being pulled from the water �(00:27:44) Medical Work at Cat Lai -He administered a fair amount of penicillin shots during his time there -U.S. soldiers would fraternize with local women and contract diseases -His main function as a medic was to carry out basic processing -Collected information from soldiers who came in requesting aid -After that ran a preliminary check up on them (temperature, blood pressure) -Medical facility that he worked at would close by about 8 PM -They were able to react quickly at any time if they were urgently needed though (00:29:26) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -He has good memories of his two years of service -He feels that being older helped him cope better with being in the Army -Knew how to respect superiors and be disciplined -Understood why the war was being fought (00:31:23) Coming Home and Readjusting -Readjusting to civilian life was very easy for him -When he came home from Vietnam he was allowed two weeks to visit his family -After that he went to Fort Carson, Colorado for five months -He had no problems with PTSD upon coming home -Attributes that to not being in the field and witnessing combat -He never experienced any harassment from people who were anti-war -On the contrary he was actually routinely thanked for his military service (00:33:10) Reflections on Service Pt. 3 -Looking back he isn’t happy about how American leadership allowed for the war to turn out -Tries to remind himself that there’s nothing to be done about those decisions now -Glad that he was able to serve his country -Feels that most who served are happy to have done their part -He feels that his service enforced having a good work ethic, being disciplined and ambitious -He also attributes his time in the Army to furthering his interest in medicine -He feels extremely lucky to have made it through psychologically and physically unharmed � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JerzykB1630V Title A name given to the resource Jerzyk, Benjamin (Interview outline and video), 2014 Description An account of the resource Ben Jerzyk born in 1945 in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. He was the oldest of eight other children and his father was a World War Two veteran. He attended college and trained as a physical therapist and was drafted into the Army in June 1967. He trained as a medic at Fort Sam Houston, Texas. He was deployed to Vietnam in mid-December of 1967 and was stationed at Cat Lai with the 133rd Medical Detachment Company. He spent eleven months in Vietnam during which time he lived through the Tet Offensive in early 1968. After returning home from Vietnam he completed his service at Fort Carson, Colorado in early 1969. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jerzyk, Benjamin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jerzyk, Isabel (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-05-22 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives