431 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abed89f628c9ed807ec1faac0934bff8.mp4 389246a1851dd01c2830d6872cd9b786 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a197128cc356e394046000089c1a4d5e.pdf 3b52c211102547dd9e3e50c8fbb40fd7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Robert Hoolsema Cold War-Korean War Era 41 minutes 7 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born in 1928 in Grand Rapids, Michigan in Blodgett Hospital -Grew up in the Grand Rapids area -Father was a carpenter -During the Great Depression his father didn’t have any carpentry work -Thirteen years before he went back to carpentry -He had one sister -His mother stayed at home (00:01:09) World War II -Cousin came over on December 7, 1941 and said Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor -Followed the news of the war in the papers and the radio -The war ended while he was still in high school -Saved tin cans for the war effort -Had air raid drills -Neighbor and father were air raid wardens -During an air raid drill a siren would sound and they’d turn their lights off -Happened at night -Never thought Grand Rapids would be bombed though (00:03:37) Getting Drafted -He graduated from high school in 1947 -Became a carpenter after high school -Getting drafted interrupted that for a couple years -He got drafted in mid-1950 not long after the Korean War started -Sometime after June 25, 1950 (00:05:24) Korean War -Remembers seeing pictures of the winter of 1950 in Korea during the war -Didn’t pay as much attention to the Korean War as he did to World War II (00:06:08) Basic Training -Sent to Camp Carson, Colorado at the end of October, 1950 -Travelled to Detroit then, Fort Sheridan, Illinois then took a troop train to Camp Carson -Met National Guardsmen from South Dakota -Assigned to the 196th Regimental Combat Team -Had to fill the ranks of the 196th with draftees -He wound up training with a lot of men that he knew from Grand Rapids -The men from South Dakota were welcoming and friendly -Some were officers, some had fought in World War II -He was part of a rifle company -Trained to live in foxholes and to prepare for infantry warfare -Started off with marching, learning to follow orders, running, and hiking �-The area was dry and could be very hot, or very cold -Also had to adjust to being 6,000 feet above sea level -It was hard for him to adjust to Army living -He complied with orders though -The drill instructors were reasonable people -He wound up spending nine months at Fort Carson (00:13:41) Infantry Training -Part of those nine months were spent in infantry training -Trained with the M1 Garand rifle -Familiarized himself with the .30 caliber and .50 caliber machine guns -Trained with hand grenades -Trained with the Browning Automatic Rifle, but didn’t do much with it -Remembers that it was a heavy weapon -Went on maneuvers in the foothills -The artillery units would train by shooting over them as they advanced on a hill -Also worked with tanks and “Weasels” (M29, tracked vehicle for traveling in the snow) (00:16:44) Orders for Alaska -Didn’t know if they’d be sent to Korea or not -They eventually received orders to go to Alaska -They kept receiving draftees that wound up getting sent to Korea -The men that were sent to Korea were the ones that caused problems (00:18:40) Downtime during Training -Didn’t spend much time in Colorado Springs -Did visit Denver on leave during the weekends -Hitchhiked there and hitchhiked back (00:19:49) Traveling to Alaska -He was given five days of leave before being sent to Alaska -The men were happy being sent to a place where they wouldn’t be shot at -Took a train up to Seattle, Washington -Spent five days there -Boarded a troopship in Seattle and sailed north to Alaska -Traveled via the Inland Passage to Haines, Alaska (00:20:50) Maneuvers in Alaska and Canada -After landing at Haines he and the 196th maneuvered through Yukon Territory -Making their way towards Fort Richardson, Alaska -The maneuver took about one month -Did it in later summer/early fall 1951 -Remembers that it rained a lot and there were some nice days -It was a 500 mile trek to Fort Richardson -Traveled on foot as well as in trucks -Took part in simulated combat with troops from Alaska (00:22:36) Stationed at Fort Richardson -Fort Richardson was near Anchorage -They were supposed to be living in brand new, 500 man barracks -They weren’t ready when they arrived -Had to live in tents until late fall 1951 �-Moved into the new barracks when they were completed -They continued to do drills and war games when they were settled in in Alaska -Once winter came they were given skis -Became ski troopers -It was incredibly difficult -Had to carry a 9 pound rifle and a 60 pound pack -Did cross country skiing -Only rifle companies became ski troopers -Used snow shoes to get around as well -The skis were easier for travel though -The snow in Alaska stayed around, as opposed to gradually melting like it did in Michigan -The snow was two – three feet deep on average -It could get down to -40oF -Had to watch for signs of frostbite on the face where it was most susceptible -The coldest it got while he was in Alaska was -50oF -They were working so hard that they were still sweating in the cold -Had to camp out in the cold -They had portable heaters -The rations would freeze and had to be thawed -Slept in sleeping bags on top of the snow because the ground was too cold (00:29:38) Downtime in Alaska -They had pool tables at the fort -They were busy all day, so they would write letters at night -Also had to was their own clothes, so “downtime” was used for that as well -He would go into Anchorage which was still a frontier town -Met a man who drove a semi-truck and would travel with him around Alaska -The roads were unpaved, so sometimes they traveled on frozen riverbeds -Alaska has changed since he was there -The soldiers were treated well by the Alaskans, better than the Coloradoans -This was because in Colorado Springs soldiers would cause trouble -Some men would go hunting and fishing in Alaska -They would use their bayonets to go spear fishing -Some men would go rabbit hunting -Allowed for a variety of food (00:33:40) Cold War -Remembers the Elmendorf Air Force Base was basically next door to Fort Richardson -Fort Richardson’s purpose was to protect Elmendorf from being attacked by the Soviets -They would have had to hold out for three days before reinforcements could arrive -The only way the Russians could have successfully invaded would have been with paratroopers -In retrospect this seemed ridiculous -Also monitored Soviet troop movements in Siberia (00:36:01) End of Service -Stayed in Alaska for thirteen months (time in Alaska most likely ended in late 1952) -He was sent back to Camp Carson and was discharged from there -A lot of the men he served with were discharged at the same time �(00:36:53) Life after the Army -He returned to Grand Rapids and continued to work as a carpenter -He worked for a contractor then started his own contracting business -He bought a furniture factory and ran that for twenty years -Retired after that -Made chairs and then did wood bending -His sons run the factory now (00:38:45) Reflections on Service -His service was good for him -Maybe not good for everyone though -It taught him to appreciate being a civilian -It taught him good values -Learning how to live with different people and get along with them -He gained life experience and independence -It helped him later when he went into business -He met a lot of men that were good to serve with � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HoolsemaR1737V Title A name given to the resource Hoolsema, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-03-31 Description An account of the resource Robert Hoolsema was born in 1928 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He grew up in Grand Rapids and graduated from high school in 1947. He was drafted into the Army in mid-1950 and began training at Camp Carson, Colorado in late October, 1950. He received basic training as well as infantry training there, and after nine months he and the rest of the 196th Regimental Combat Team were sent up to Fort Richardson, Alaska. During his time in Alaska he went on maneuvers and prepared for the possibility of a Soviet invasion of Alaska, specifically protecting Elmendorf Air Force Base. In late 1952 he was sent back to Camp Carson, Colorado and was discharged from the Army. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hoolsema, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/435026884709aabf0ca6d4fbd554a711.mp4 3096be6369ed8a32805c914f431f354d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9dd55831ff62f464f2ed81b00dfd48f6.pdf 44c9ffcdfaf4177b8b49edceb53f78af PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Gerald Hopkins World War II 32 minutes 17 seconds (00:00:12) Early Life -Born in Blanchester, Ohio in 1927 -Grew up on a farm -Went to Morrow High School in Morrow, Ohio -Graduated from there -Went to Wilmington College for a year and a half -Parents were farmers and worked on two farms -Able to keep their farm during the Great Depression -Raised cattle and dairy cows and delivered milk -He had a younger brother -Graduated from high school in 1944 -Studied coaching and mathematics in college -Wanted to become a teacher (00:02:05) Getting Drafted, Basic Training, End of the War, & Deployment Pt. 1 -Got drafted on June 19, 1945 -Went to Columbus, Ohio then got sent to Indiana then down to Texas -Received basic training in Texas -Played basketball for the battalion team during basic training -Atomic bombs were dropped on Japan while he was in basic training -Dramatically changed things because they were planning on invading Japan -Received a thirty day leave in November 1945 -In December 1945 he received orders to go to Germany for occupation duty (00:03:18) News of the War -Followed the news of the war -Knew in Texas they were training for the invasion of Japan -Remembers hearing about the attack on Pearl Harbor -Sitting on the living room floor doing his homework and he heard the news -Attack came as a shock -Didn't think about getting drafted, just tried to focus on the present -Knew he would probably get drafted though and wanted to get some college before that (00:04:45) Basic Training & Deployment Pt. 2 -Sent to Camp Walters, Texas for basic training -Enjoyed his time in basic training and found it fun -Enjoyed going on marches and playing baseball -Learned how to climb down rope ladders into landing craft -Only specific training he got pertaining to the invasion of Japan -When it came time to be deployed he went to New Jersey and boarded a ship -Remembers passing the White Cliffs of Dover in England en route to Europe �-Pulled into Le Havre, France on Christmas 1945 (00:06:19) Occupation Duty in Marburg Pt. 1 -Assigned to office duty in Marburg, Germany -Worked as a special orders clerk -Processing paperwork for soldiers returning to the United States -Stationed there for a month (00:06:41) Arrival in Europe -Remembers standing in line in Le Havre for Christmas dinner and it was raining -Remembers going by train to Germany -Passed through Paris (00:07:06) Evidence of the War Pt. 1 -Didn't see damage from the war until he got into Germany -No damage from the war in Marburg (00:07:52) Vacation in Switzerland -Went to Switzerland for a week's vacation while stationed in Marburg -The vacation only cost him $75 -Paid for lodging, food, transportation, and skiing -Went skiing on the Matterhorn -Stayed in Zermatt (00:08:16) Show Business Duty Pt. 1 -Transferred to Kassel, Germany -Planned on going to Berlin -Saw a GI song and dance show and decided to get into that -Requested a transfer to 3rd Special Services to do song and dance -Request was granted -Went to a city on the Rhine River (possibly Ochsenhausen) in May 1946 -Rehearsed during the summer -Played shows around Germany as part of "Script and Score" -Soldiers' show with the 3rd Special Services -He performed a magic act -Performed in PXs (post exchange) -Visited Stuttgart (00:10:17) End of Service & Coming Home Pt. 1 -Offered a chance to reenlist and go home -Decided to go back home and return to college -Sent to Bremerhaven, Germany and took a ship back to New Jersey in late November 1946 -Discharged in December 1946 -Got a ticket to Tucson, Arizona -Parents had sold their farm and moved there -Visited his parents then returned to Ohio because he had a girlfriend there (00:11:55) Evidence of the War Pt. 2 -Never got to see Berlin -Saw Kassel, Munich, Stuttgart, and Wiesbaden -There were a few places, like Nuremberg, that had sustained heavy damage �-Other places, like Stuttgart, had been spared -Kassel had sustained some damage -The city he went to on the Rhine River was virtually untouched (00:12:52) Contact with Germans and British -The German people wanted to trade and buy things from American soldiers -He had no trouble with the German people -Met some British soldiers in a British hospital when he was having trouble with his feet -He wasn't comfortable around them -Found them too proper (00:14:15) Living Conditions & Downtime -Once he got into show business he got to stay in hotels -Slept and ate in hotels -Had bands of Displaced Persons (refugees) play music for them in hotels -While in Marburg he got treated to music with dinner -Went to nightclubs and beer halls -Went to dances with German girls -Didn't have a lot of downtime while he was in show business -Spent all day preparing for shows -Performed at night (00:16:02) Occupation Duty in Marburg Pt. 2 -In Marburg did a lot of paperwork -Had a German secretary help him and was a good typist (00:16:26) Crime in Germany -Never ran into any crime -Aware of black market activities in Germany (00:16:59) Gypsies -Met some gypsies in Marburg -They set up camp near the base -He visited the gypsy camp and performed magic tricks for the children -The gypsy children all smoked and he gave them a few of his cigarettes -None of the gypsies could speak English -The most they knew how to say was, "Cigarette, Joe?" -They stayed in Marburg for three or four days then left (00:18:42) End of Service & Coming Home Pt. 2 -He was pressured to enlist in the National Guard after getting discharged in New Jersey -Remembers walking to the train station after getting discharged -Failed to salute a lieutenant -The lieutenant yelled at Gerald about failing to salute an officer -Gerald proceeded to explain that he was a civilian and walked away -Discharged in December 1946 (00:20:07) Life after the Service -Went back to college in January 1947 -Got married in 1947 -Took a half semester of college in Kentucky then returned to Wilmington College �-Graduated from college in 1949 -Qualified to be a teacher, but there were no job openings in August 1949 -Got a job with GM -Retired from that after thirty years -Lived in Ohio until 1972 -Moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan and worked at the GM factory on 36th Street -Retired in 1982 -GI Bill paid for his college -When he got discharged he was completely out of the Army -As a result, the Korean War had no effect on him -Noticed a major change in public opinion during the Korean War and Vietnam War (00:22:30) Life during World War II -Remembers rationing during the Second World War -Gas was rationed -Because they were farmers they were allowed extra gas (00:23:22) Veterans' Group -He was part of the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) when he lived in Ohio -Helped organize bingo games -Ran a blackjack table at the VFW (00:24:08) End of the War Pt. 2 -The news of the atomic bombs being dropped on Japan came as a shock -Realized that Japan was going to surrender and the invasion was called off -Knew he would get called up for occupation duty -On Victory in Japan Day there were big celebrations in Texas -On Victory in Europe Day there were celebrations, but the war with Japan muted them (00:26:04) Talons Out Honor Flight -Note: The Talons Out Honor Flight was an organized tour and event for WWII and terminally ill veterans that brought them to Washington D.C. to commemorate their service and show them the National Mall in May 2015 -He enjoyed his trip -Full day that began at 5:30 AM and ended at midnight -Felt that it was done well -Went with men from his retirement home that are friends and also veterans of World War II -A memorable day (00:27:46) Show Business Duty Pt. 2 -Did a Ted Lewis style routine and sang "Me and My Shadow" -Combination of comedy and song -Some soldiers did a dance routine -A lot of slaptstick comedy -Their goal was to get the soldiers to laugh a little and not be homesick -Performed in opera houses (00:29:06) Reflections on Service -Feels that it was a great vacation opportunity provided to him by the Army -Chance to be young and see parts of the world he probably wouldn't have gotten to see �-Everything was good, for the most part -There were some bad experiences, but nothing too traumatic � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HopkinsG1866V Title A name given to the resource Hopkins, Gerald (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-07-16 Description An account of the resource Gerald Hopkins was born in Blanchester, Ohio in 1927. He was drafted on June 19, 1945 and was processed in Ohio and Indiana before going to Camp Walters, Texas for basic training to prepare for the invasion of Japan. When the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan and Japan surrendered the invasion plans changed and he was assigned to occupation duty in Germany. He was deployed to Germany in December 1945 and arrived in Le Havre, France. He was stationed in Marburg, Germany for a month working as a special orders clerk (processing soldiers being sent home) before applying for the 3rd Special Services as a performer. He traveled around Germany with the GI song and dance troupe "Script and Score" performing in German cities all around West Germany. In November 1946 he took a ship back to the United States and was discharged in New Jersey in December 1946. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hopkins, Gerald Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jones, Adam (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/02ea36ecb69977b609e7896d83ef34d4.pdf 3354bf07bf8f0e7ed54270cc73c97446 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Korean War Donald Hopper 17:33 Introduction (01:01)      Donald was born in Sault Saint Marie, Michigan on December 14, 1933. He had three brothers and three sisters. His older brother was in the Air Force and his younger brother was in the Army, but received a medical discharge due to a knee injury. Prior to his service, Donald was a student at the Michigan College of Mining and Technology, known today as Michigan Technical University (Michigan Tech). He enlisted in the Marine Corps because he wanted to be as prepared as he could prior to going into battle. Military (02:27)              The training was rigorous, strenuous and well worth while. Donald went to boot camp in San Diego, California and after that he went to Camp Pendleton where he learned advanced combat training. This lasted for eight additional weeks after boot camp. It was not difficult for Donald to adjust to military life. He got up at 3am and worked all day until they went to bed at 9pm that night. When they went to the mess hall, they stood outside in formation. They were admitted by platoon, and they were given five minutes to get in, get their food, eat it, and then be back out in formation. Not many people were able to really eat a full meal. (04:28) Donald served in California and Virginia. When Korea ended, he was stationed at Quantico, Virginia. The attitude was different back then, everybody was expected to serve. You were either drafted or enlisted but everyone served in some way. Adjustment back into civilian life was different, but it did not take long to shake off the military lifestyle and rejoin the civilian ranks. He restarted his schooling right after his discharge, so he didn’t have time to not adjust. (06:33) Over the years, he maintained contact with some of his friends from the service, but most of them are dead now. Going into boot camp, they were told that they would be there for over three months. And during that time, they were molded into Marines. After all these years, Donald still considers himself a Marine. One lesson that he learned was love of country. Also he learned that if he put his mind to doing something, he could do it. (08:27) �World War II Memories (08:45)       Donald was seven years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed, and he remembers when it happened. His dad was in his forties at the time and he had to register for the draft. He also fought in the first World War in France. He did not have to serve in the Second World War Sault St. Marie was a strategic location because of the locks that transported iron ore. Near his house, they had barrage balloon sites. These balloons were the size of a house, and were run up a cable and discouraged aircraft from flying around. (10:46) He and his friends would run errands for the soldiers stationed nearby, such as getting them ice cream and other things. His parents would also invite the troops over to their house for Sunday dinner. Marine Corps (12:15)         After completing advanced combat training at Camp Pendleton, most of the men that trained with Donald were sent to Korea. Donald missed out on the fierce fighting that was still going on in country. He was sent to an Army base, Fort Belvoir, in Virginia and took a course on topographical surveying. It was his function to layout where artillery was set and relay positions. He was then sent to Quantico, Virginia where he was assigned to the Marine Corps Equipment Board. They were sent new gear and equipment, such as ammunition, rifles and other combat gear. They would test this new gear and find out if the Marine Corps wanted to purchase it. Donald tested heavy construction equipment such as bulldozers, scrapers and loaders. He would go all over the country building roads with the new machines and testing them out. (14:55) He did that until the time he was discharged. One piece of advice Donald would like to share with future generations is to love your country, and do what you can to make it better. Think of the country and not think about yourself. America is a great place and we’re very fortunate to live here. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hopper, Donald (Interview outline), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hopper, Donald Description An account of the resource Donald was born in Sault Saint Marie, Michigan on December 14, 1933. He was seven years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed and remembers well life around his town during the war. When the Korean War erupted, he decided to join the United States Marine Corps. He was sent to boot camp in San Diego, California and then to Advanced Combat Training at Camp Pendleton, California. After his training, Donald was sent to Virginia where he took a course on topographical survey and later tested new construction equipment for Marine Corps use. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Zaenglein, Michaela (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-23 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HopperD1509V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/20124f715cd4c4d0fa9dfde36e2aa9c3.mp4 7de9d0caf9156cb836fbe178a36008ff https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8568a8e18db2d5416f474f382702eedc.pdf 8a2871766d43d6fa4cf136989281e9e7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Cold War Name of Interviewee: Daniel Horon Length of Interview: 00:56:10 Background:             He lives in Sparta, MI. He was born in Chicago, in 1939, in February. He lived in the south side of Chicago. At the age of 6, his dad moved them to Bridgman, Michigan. His dad had a job near there, working as a machinist and then in a laundry company, setting up washing machines. He would attend Bridgman High School and would graduate in 1957. In 1956, he joined the Navy Reserve and would go to meeting in Benton Harbor. He had a few uncles in the Navy in WWII. He figured he would go in because he had always wanted to. He and his friends would spend a lot of time together. They would take speed boats out on Lake Michigan, they would go hiking and look for arrowheads and other things. He was expected to serve 2 years of active duty. He would join in November 1957. He would take his first airplane to Washington D.C. and got in just at sunset. It was a very beautiful sight. He would train at Great Lakes Naval Station in Illinois. Training (3:30)         During training, they instructors were really tough on them. They trained a lot in a pool. Before they were allowed in, however, they had to scrub their feet really well to get any fungus they may have had off of them. The instructors would then have them get onto a diving board almost 15 feet above the water. Some of the guys there had never been in water before and had to be thrown off. He and an officer had come to the barracks one night to make inspection rounds when he had found a bucket with someone’s clothes in it. He made them all get up and gave them 10 minutes to clean everything up. When the officer came back in and said that that was better, one of the men said “Goodnight Daddy!” He thought they were all done for, but the officer just grinned and walked away. He and the others were eventually put into a gas chamber, making sure that they had their masks on tight. And his was on very well. After making sure that everyone had it on, they had them take it off to take a good whiff of the tear gas was in there. They were not allowed to leave until the last man took his mask off. When they did get out, they couldn’t see anything. �                  There was a lot of marching and pushups, carrying those antique rifles that weighed about 15 pounds. They also did a fire drill where they were put into a building and the building was set on fire. You had to go and put that fire out. They also set an outdoor tent on fire and had them put it out. He would also have some classwork during basic training as well. In these classes he would learn how to fire a 5-inch naval gun. (9:30) He would practice loading those things and it was a lot of work. He came out of basic about 25 pounds heavier. Boot camp lasted about 2 weeks. From there he was flown out to Washington D.C. In Washington, he was put right into mess cooking. It was an old barracks and there were a lot of cockroaches around. They would make bets on which was faster and so on. It was a temporary duty. For the most part he would stay in the barracks and on weekends he would go down and see the capital. He bought his first camera when he was down there and he took lots of pictures. He had a great time looking around. The next thing he did was to put him on an overnight train to Brooklyn, New York. And then they sent him to Newfoundland. It was very cold there. At first he thought he was going to Argentia, but it was actually a city in Newfoundland. The trip to Newfoundland was not very nice in the North Atlantic during the winter. It was very breezy and you could not be out there very long. But if you got sea sick, you had to go up on deck, and he got seasick. He did not get seasick at first, but then they gave him the job of moping the front head, which is the frontward toilet area. It was really bad. Newfoundland (15:00)         When they finally reached the harbor, some tugboats had come out to meet them to help bring them into the harbor. All you could see were snow covered hills. The barracks there were very old. He would be assigned to work at the post office. At midnight they would wake you up to get mail off a plane. The DEW Line, or Distant Early Warning Line, would be placed there. It was a series of aircraft with radar on them that would fly out to the Azores, and make a 12 hour run. Below them were radar picket ships. They would come back with ice almost 2 feet thick and they would have to chip it away in order to keep their radar working properly. He got into the Air Intelligence Office by going to school for it in Norfolk for 4 weeks. He ended up hitching a ride back earlier than he had originally planned and was put on fire watch. He walked up and down the hallway, and he heard a plane come in and crash. That was the original flight he was supposed to be on. 13 men were lost that day, and he knew of one of them. �                         This crash was about 1200 ft off the runway in the water. They had sent more people out to go and try to find survivors. 12 or so were rescued. While they were there, they wore these fleece coats, with an inch of fleece in the middle. It was always breezy and cold there. The snow would hit your eyes and you would almost need safety glasses, it would cut them. One time he was trying to find his way to a barracks, but he missed the door. The wind had blown him down a ways and he had to go towards the wind in order to find the door again. They lost guys who would just get lost outside and freeze to death because of the weather there. Especially guys who got drunk. They recommended that at least three people travel together there during the winter time. The Air Intelligence Training he received in Washington D.C. was all about secret rockets and stuff like that. We kept wire recordings of the Russians, and had to patch them up. He became quite a graphic artist, taking pictures of ships and aircraft, and making a presentation. One of the presentations was for the lieutenant governor of Newfoundland. They showed slideshows of aircraft and things like that. One time the Russians cut the Atlantic cable with a fishing boat, or somehow. So he was sent out to go take pictures of it. They put him in a rubber suit that would allow him to live 30 minutes in the water; otherwise it was only 10 minutes. They wanted him to take pictures of the Russian trawlers. He would also get pictures of icebergs and other ships out there. He would go out in a plane that would have a bubble on it for him to take pictures. The suit was for in case they crashed in the water. At first, the maneuvering of the plane would cause him to drop his camera equipment and he would miss his shots. But after some time he finally got used to it and was able to anticipate the moves of the plane. One time while they were developing some photos, some guys from LIFE magazine had come in and taken some photos of their own. They had it really easy. Each had their own camera with different lenses and about 100 rolls of film, open and ready to go. There was a secret report on the cable that had got cut, and there was still debate on whether it was an accident or not. (27:30) The Russian trawlers were suspected to try and spy on the radar of the Americans. They had radar on their ships that was not necessary to fish. Instead they may have wanted to keep track of the different carriers and such. The Grand Banks were there. A picture that he got shows the mountains there and such. They would use the radar there to keep an eye on the ships that come and go. It was a dangerous time. Everyone kept missiles prepare in case they were needed. One of the guys who were flying him around had to dodge something, though he doesn’t know what it was. No one had the capability of firing a missile in the middle of the ocean. People at home were digging bomb shelters. The guy who started the Hungarian Revolution was executed by Russian in 1958. There was a lot of talk of war. �                     During that time there were troubles in Lebanon, and some small military aircraft stopped at their base en route to Lebanon A Soviet ship put in at the port because a crewman had appendicitis, and one of the officers from the base put on civilian clothing managed to get aboard and look around. There were a lot of spies and things going on. They did find some spies in Newfoundland. He had a top secret clearance for the base, but mostly to keep things regulated and under control, people did not talk about what they were doing. There was a town nearby where he and others would go. There was a bar there where he and some of the guys would go and drink some English ale. (33:00) It was not very strong, and the bar owners would make a lot of money if someone was going there to get drunk. There would be fights between the natives and the soldiers. There would be fights between the sailors and the Marines. It was a dark and dreary place. In the summer, you had to be in bed by 9pm and the sun would be shining. In the winter, you were up and to work by 8am and it would still be black outside. Around noon, the sun would come up for an hour or two, and by the time you got out at 4pm, it was dark again. It was cold, miserable, and rainy and there were lots of blizzards. Although it did hit 60 degrees, maybe twice while he was there. One time he was walking back into the barracks and he walked up a mound of snow and fell into a hole where a care had been parked. The snow came up to his shoulders and the guys in the barracks had to pull him out. When the weather was better he could get out and see a little more. There was silver mine a few miles out and he and the others would hike around and go up there. There was an 8-inch gun left over from WWII that would help to protect the bay from Submarines. Behind them were the steel doors that mostly likely held the ammunition for the gun. They thought about exploring more, but decided not to. While they were in the silver mine, they grabbed a few rock samples. While they were there, they had a chance to go to St. Johns, the capitol. It was 80 miles by gravel road. The gravel was really sharp and they had a really old vehicle. A stone had come up and shot through the radiator hose. Luckily one of the guys had said he could fix it. The guy had ended up creating his own radiator hose and building it from scratch. It was very creative. (37:15) St. Johns had little rooms in the house and small doors. The houses there were painted strange colors. He thinks it was to find them in the winter. There were a lot of different people up there, from all different nations. He met a man called Jim Crowe who worked on the base for a while, but was a native. He gave a pretty rock and would introduce him more into the ways of their culture. He even showed him an anti-American song, but it was really funny. He remembers that you could buy a whole pot of tea for a nickel, but a cup of coffee was a quarter. They didn’t drink coffee, so it was kind of rare. �                     When the natives would go out fishing, they would have to bring fog horns in order to find their way back to the land. They would go out in little dories and hand line codfish. He remembers that one man took a spoon and made it into a fishing lure and caught a codfish with it. Another guy went in with a diving suit and got a lobster. One time when he was getting food, his tray had held a lobster that hung off of either end. The man handed him a napkin full of tools to help him in his mission to get the meat from that thing. He had plier, pincher, and a couple of picks. It was good but scary. He would also have a couple of other people to land on the secret base as well. One of the soviet government officials would land there and it made quite a stir with the soldiers there. If you had a car out there it was a challenge. One time one of the officers had parked his car, and the water had come up to the bottom of the frame of the car and froze. He had to haul buckets of water out there in order to get it unfrozen from the ground. They had snow blowers that you would not believe. These things would throw snow almost 200 feet. They had to keep the runways clear and it was difficult to keep them clear. It was dangerous being there because the weather was so unpredictable. One minute the wind would be coming from one direction, the next hour it would come from another. He was surprised there weren’t more casualties. There were 29 men who died altogether while he was there. One time a plane had crashed and gone up in flames right on the runway. He would go to the mess hall the next day and see some of the guys from the crash. They had worn flame protective gear under their coats, but they looked pretty roughed up. A few ships were lost as well. There was a tower there to help guide the ships into the harbor, so there were not so many problems there. When he was working at the post office he had to go aboard the ships to deliver mail (47:00) He went aboard a couple icebreakers, a supply ship, the auxiliary repair ships and a submarine once. The guys in the sub had been running under water for 40 days and they were all on deck and breathing air. He finally got his mail pouch down the hatch, and he explored the ship. It was a pretty happy bunch of guys. As his time in the service was running out, he wanted to go to college. So when they asked, it was tempting, but he still said no. They even offered him to go to nuclear training school. But he still said no. After he worked in the post office, he worked for the Admiral who ran the base. Admiral Martin was a quiet man. He had a sword and stuff. One day he had left it in the office and he got a picture of it. When his time was up, the Admiral stopped his car and gave him a ride to the airport. While he was there, they did not get anyone get away with anything. It was a strict base. All the formalities of the barracks were supposed to be followed. �  You learn how to get along with people and you get into fights along the way. You learn how to fight your own battles as well. He learned how to judge people a little better and you learn how to go on your own. Post Duty (54:05)  When he got out he went right into college at the University of Detroit. It was quite a shock.  He was on his own; he had little money and no GI benefits.  He finished 2 years of college and worked as an engineering technician for about 8 years.  He would move around to Newaygo and finally end up in Sparta. CD 1  Contains images of the harbor, broken pipeline, ships, architecture and scenery from Newfoundland. CD2  Contains images of different aircraft, him up in the plane, crew and visitors and their aircraft, different ships, overhead views of the scenery and harbor. CD3  Contains images of a town, architecture in the town, different statues, scenery, flowers, and different parts of the town. CD4  Contains images of people, ships, aircraft, paper cuttings, cars buried in snow, equipment, icebergs, a hangar, scenery, sunset, the town, plant life, buildings, statues, architecture, the old gun from WWII, more people. CD5  Contains images of people, ships, scenery, aircraft, equipment, the runway, paper cuttings, ice covered planes, the Admiral’s sword, the town architecture, statues, more people, plants, � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Horon, Daniel (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Horon, Daniel Description An account of the resource Daniel Horon served in the Navy during the Cold War, from 1957 to 1961. He trained in communications and photographic intelligence and was sent to an air base in Newfoundland. He performed a variety of duties, including aerial reconnaissance, and provides detailed accounts of both life on the base and of the assorted tensions brought on by the Cold War as they played out in Newfoundland. He also took large quantities of pictures while there, and many of these are included in his file. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-12 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HoronD Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09534ac5cad0c3de04430a392a308d4b.m4v 34e524624d277662d6dc1c5934bc2b74 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/149a9b4cd9d722443da7e47d52fdd06f.pdf de582ea70840b72f5d636aa3a16fa60b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Katie Horstman Length of Interview: (01:08:34) Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 20, 2010 Interviewer: “What is your name and where and when were you born?” My name is Katherine Teresa Horstman known as Horsy or Katie and I go by the name of Katie and I was born in Minster, Ohio on April 14, 1935. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like, before high school, in the early days?” The early days—I had five brothers, two sisters, born on a farm east of Minster, Ohio and I’ll tell you, I had a lot of cows to milk every morning and that’s how I got my wrist strength, so Jimmy Foxx said. I helped with the chores because my brothers all were in service at one time, so the three girls had to help out with the farm work, help dad. Interviewer: “So your dad was a farmer?” Oh yes. Interviewer: “A dairy farmer?” We had everything. It was a hundred acres at that time, about a hundred acres it was all small. Small town, German town, talked German, didn’t talk in English, I was brought up speaking German. 1:19. Interviewer: “So the early day before the war you had your brothers around you?” They were all older I was the second youngest. Interviewer: “Ok, so you didn’t play games with your brother—they were already older.” Except for one brother, John and he was a good ball player, but whenever I could, whenever I didn’t have chores to do or anything, drive the tractor or whatever, John and I would hit balls. We had a lot of neighbor kids and every Sunday it was known that we would take turns going to each other’s houses and play baseball, not softball because the boys didn’t want to play softball, we had to play baseball. 2:03 If you weren’t any good you sat on the sidelines, but if you were good they asked you to play. 1 �Interviewer: “So did you sit on the sidelines?” No way, no I was pretty good otherwise they wouldn’t let me play. Interviewer: “In school were there any kinds of sports for girls?” Not at all until—it was a Catholic community, 99.9 percent Catholic, and a young priest came into town and he started the CYO, which was a Catholic Youth Organization. The girls didn’t have anything and he felt sorry for us and he was a good ball player, so he started it. We had softball, so I started in the sixth grade and ended up a freshman because at fifteen years I was scouted by Fort Wayne, Indiana. 2:56 Interviewer: “We’re jumping too quickly—so he set up a softball team that was not just for boys?” No, not at all, they didn’t play softball they played baseball. Interviewer: “So there was a softball girls team that you played on in high school?’ Exactly. Interviewer: “Did you hear about out did you know about, for example, professional men’s baseball? Were their newspapers that you red or radio?” Oh my gosh, Wally Post is from around us, played for the Reds and Pete Rose was born on April 14th, same as my birthday, so that was my hero, my idol. Interviewer: “So you actually knew about baseball outside of just the people you were playing with?” 3:39 Oh yeah. Interviewer: “You followed the teams?” Radio, we always had the Reds on—big Reds fans. Interviewer: “When did you hear, I don’t mean the exact date or anything, but do you remember when it was that you heard there was a women’s team?” Well, in one of the papers, Dottie Schroeder was in the Sidney Daily News and said that Charlie Grimm would pay her fifty thousand dollars if she was a man. I cut it out and I had a little scrap book that I kept all the clippings in because we had a weekly paper, The Minster Post, and they would always put the scores in and what we did, and I pasted those in and I put Dottie’s picture right on the front and put under it, My Ambition, not knowing, I was only fourteen then when I saw this picture in the paper, and I cut it out and I always dreamt that hopefully I would meet her. 4:35 Interviewer: “So once you saw that picture, you cut it out and put it in your scrapbook. When did the actual opportunity come up?” 2 �The next year—my father passed away that year, when I was fourteen, so I was tired of milking the cows for my brother and the chickens and everything else that we had to do and I thought—I just kept praying on the dream that I gotta find. So we were playing St. Henry in Ohio in May during school time and a scout from Fort Wayne happened to be there and he told the coach from St. Henry, “Hey, I think that girl can play ball and she can play on the Fort Wayne Daisies team”, and he said, “who are the Fort Wayne Daisies? He had never heard of Fort Wayne either or girls baseball, so his daughter was a senior, so he said, “I would like to see those two try out for the Fort Wayne Daisies.” 5:45 He’s the one that took me after school was out, which was like May 23rd and we went to Fort Wayne and I started pitching and infield practice. Max Carey was the coach, hallo of famer, and he said, “Yes, you can stay”. 6:02 Interviewer: “What did your mom think about this?” Well, I came home, I had to get clothes and stuff, and I told her about it and she said, “As long as you go to church every Sunday you can go, but as soon as you don’t you’re back here”, so I never missed a Sunday in my life because I always remember my mother, she was very, very strict. Interviewer: “What was the actual process? How did you get there and once you got there what actually happened? I know you want to get into the game and all that, but for our purposes we want to know the exact details.” Okay, I was fifteen years old, I couldn’t drive, I didn’t have a car, my dad had passed away, and nobody could take me except Tony Bernard, who was from St. Henry, the coach, he took me and then I started and I had another roommate from Philadelphia and we stayed in somebody’s home, you couldn’t stay in apartments, we always stayed in private homes that wanted some ball players to stay with them. 7:16 Interviewer: “Did you sign a contract?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “At fifteen?” At fifteen I signed a contract. Fifty dollars, the rookies got fifty dollars a week, okay this was great money since I was only making forty cents for mowing the neighbors’ lawn, an acre. I could have cared less about the money I had no idea. I think the first year, until I turned sixteen; I was paid under the table. They gave me cash because they weren’t allowed to write out a check. 7:47 Interviewer: “So, had you traveled at all any distance before you went to Fort Wayne?” 3 �Probably Dayton, Ohio was forty-five miles and that took an hour and a half in a 1936 Ford because I remember the escalator that’s all I remember. I had never been on an escalator and I was petrified to go up that escalator and I finally did and it was okay. Since we had chores, you had to be there, it was a responsibility and we didn’t know any better and loved it as long as I could play for CYO once a week that was great to me and I loved to hit. 8:29 Interviewer: “What was your first impression of Fort Wayne when you got there?” Well, when I got there it was funny because Max Carey had me pitch right away. He wanted to see my arm. Well, I had a pretty good arm and I was very accurate and I pitched and pitched for at least thirty minutes batting practice and Lefty Alvarez was picking up the balls and giving them to me and she was talking and I couldn’t understand her and I thought, “what kind of a language is she talking and what am I getting into?” She kept saying, “are you tired, are you tired, are you tired?” I thought, “gosh” and I finally turned around and asked somebody because I couldn’t understand her and they said she was saying, “are you tired”, and they said she was from Cuba. 9:16 I said, “Cuba, where’s that? I had no idea. I really paid attention to the history lessons after that. Interviewer: “Did you feel at all intimidated at that age? Here’s these girls you know who are playing professional ball.” I was more intimidated by the big city life. That just threw me you know, all these cars and all these people, I had no idea, but as far as playing ball, no, they were all very nice. Dotty Schroeder was on that team, so I was happy, Jo Weaver, the sisters, Jean Weaver and Betty, super nice because most of them came from farms like me, so I could communicate and we talked farm life mostly and baseball and that’s all I remember. 10:09 Interviewer: “ Now rookies are usually treated like rookies, so how were you treated when you first started?” Not bad at all because they knew I had an arm and knew I could hit, so we had no problems. Jo, Jeanne and I, there were four of us that were fifteen, sixteen years old and that helped. With her sisters being older and Betty was a super player, and they played two years before I did, Betty did, So she had the car and she took us all around and that’s how I got my transportation. 10:54 Interviewer: “That must have been amazing to be with some players and one of them has a car?” I know, it was unreal, well she was making a hundred and some dollars a week and cars, you could buy a band new car at the end of the season for two thousand five hundred, so she always had a brand new car and a big one you know. We were in seventh heaven and didn’t know it. 4 �Interviewer: “I know this is going back a long way, and I don’t want to jump ahead too far, but what were the first few, say days or weeks like? You didn’t start playing in a game right away did you?” No, no. Interviewer: “What were the first days kind of like?” 11:31 Just more or less getting acquainted with the girls and getting use to playing every day and a regular schedule. Interviewer: “What was the routine? I know it was different sometimes, but what was the routine?” The routine was that a four o’clock you would be at the ballpark and we would warm up and stuff and seven o’clock was game time and the crowd would come in. Fort Wayne had one of the biggest crowds in the whole league and then we would watch the game or participate for the first couple of weeks or month. I didn’t play very much, but just watched to see how everybody was playing their position. I was very versatile because I could play outfield or whatever, but I never considered myself a pitcher because I didn’t pitch underhand, I always threw overhand. 12:35 Interviewer: “At that time, when you first started, were they still pitching underhand?” No, no, in softball in the CYO, that’s the only position I never played. Just to get acquainted with the bigger city and the fans and the rules, that’s what threw me, I couldn’t believe the rules. Lipstick on every day all the time because the chaperone would remind you and I mean she was strict, Tetzlaff from Wisconsin and every time we would try to get out of it or something she would say, “Okay, either wear it or you get fined”. The fine the first time was five dollars and then ten dollars and then twenty dollars and then suspension, you were out and man, I didn’t want to go home. Although I did get homesick and I was surprised, but you get over that. 13:32 I think my room mate, Jeanne Geissinger, who was sixteen, she helped me a lot, we were both together and like I said, the Weaver sisters really helped me. Interviewer: “I’m kind of curious about this, had you worn lipstick before you had gone into the league?” No, you normally didn’t wear lipstick in our town until you were sixteen. Sixteen was like a magic number, you could wear lipstick, you could have a date, you never dated before and that was another thing because some guys would come up and ask me for a date and I said, “well I don’t know, I have to ask the chaperone”, and she said, “Only if I go along”. Go along, I thought, “wow” and I said, “No, I’ll wait until I’m sixteen”. Interviewer: “Well, who taught you how to put lipstick on?” 5 �Well, I just did it you know. It wasn’t that hard and I thought it was amazing and then we had curfew and I wasn’t use to that either because on the farm we went to these dances and we had huge dance halls and we had Guy Lombardo, the Eagles and all and that was very famous in our town, we had big dances. 14:46 So, I don’t know, I just got to learn how to put lipstick on and everything and that was it. Interviewer: “ What were some of the other things you had to do besides lipstick? Did you have to wear your hair a certain way?” It had to be a certain length. You couldn’t wear boyish hairdos. You had to be in two hours on a road trip and that was another thing, we got to travel to Rockford, Illinois and all these places, but if you got off the bus to get a coke, you had to put a skirt on. You could wear shorts and slacks on the bus, and I thought--my god, we stopped at a little town and I said, “who in the world is out here at two thirty in the morning? I don’t see anybody”, and she said, “if you want to pay the five dollars, it’s up to you”. No way. 15:41 Interviewer: “Was there, when you first started, did they kind of sit you down, you and a couple others, to kind of go through this little school—this is what you have to do, you have to have on lipstick etc.?” The chaperone did. Interviewer: “So right away from the beginning they told you?” Right away on the very first day. Interviewer: “Okay, so like you said, there were certain rules and regulations and if you didn’t you were fined.” Yes, I told you what the rules were on that. Five, ten, twenty and suspension. Interviewer: “How far did you get?” Oh no, I paid attention believe me, I wanted to play ball. I did everything they said and my mother would have been really proud of me because I would always question her. 16:31 Interviewer: “So let’s kind of put ourselves, you’re on the bench over the first couple of weeks, watching and seeing how the game is being played, what was your experience when you first got your opportunity to play?” Well, the first opportunity I remember playing outfield, right field, and I think I pitched too. I did real well in hitting and Max Carey liked the way I hit, so I played outfield and I think I pitched the very first year too and I won three games. I pitched three games and 6 �won every one of them, so that was great. The next year Jimmy Foxx came in as our manager in 1952 and he didn’t want me in the outfield. He thought I had super arms, so he put me on third base in the infield and I really liked the infield. I moved around and then he needed pitchers, so then I pitched and played third base. 17:35 I didn’t get a day’s rest like these pitchers do now, I went right to third base, if he needed me I was right there. Interviewer: “Let’s stay in the first season, you got a chance to pitch and one of the things I found from some of the interviews that I have done with the other players, is when they became a rookie there was certainly the sense that they were the rookie, but once you played and the other women saw you playing well, you no longer were the rookie. Did you ever get the feeling or sense that you were no longer the rookie?” No, I guess it didn’t bother me. Interviewer: “So you just wanted to play baseball?” Exactly, that’s all I wanted to do. I just wanted to play ball. I was a pretty good punter in football. 18:29 Interviewer: “You had played before with the Catholic Youth Group, but now you’re playing in professional baseball and I would imagine there’s a few more fans in the stands, how were the fans?” Oh yeah, but we had a lot of fans in CYO. It was a small town and that’s all you had to do in the evening, we always played at night, so people from work, this was there entertainment. We had a semi-pro baseball team, boys, but they only played on Sundays, so during the week we played and we drew a pretty big crowd. 19:00 Interviewer: “So you were used to the fans?” Well not ten thousand like the fans they had Interviewer: “Was that at all intimidating to you, the fact that there were that many people?” Not at all, I loved the fans. That’s why I liked third base because I could talk to them like Rosie O’Donnell, I was one of those with the fans and I always loved to talk to them. Interviewer: “How was that? I remember from the movie that happening, but did you actually talk to people during the game?” Not during the game, no, no, but right after or before mostly before and you would sign autographs. You never refused because you knew they paid for your work. 19:52 7 �Interviewer: “Was there a mixture in the audience or was it mostly men or women?” Amazingly and what was amazing, lots of young men and that amazed me. Same thing with these autograph sessions—that really amazes me—young man, what do you want my old autograph for? Like I said today, lots of historians are young men and they collect a lot of memorabilia. Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights that you can remember from your first season, the first time out?” First season—well, that we were in the playoffs, we were in the play offs and so I had— well, you know I was supposed to be back in school after Labor Day, that’s when school started, so I thought that was going to be a big problem, but the superintendent liked me and he said, “Oh well, women don’t ordinarily get an education anyhow, so you might as well just go and as long as you have good grades”, and that was the thought because the women over there hardly anybody went to college at that time. You’re talking about the fifties and the philosophy over there was that women get married, have kids and are in the kitchen making meals or working on the farm. 21:22 Interviewer: “But you got to play baseball.” Yes I did. Interviewer: “So the first season you did the playoffs. Did you play in the games?” Oh Yeah, and I called the superintendent and he said to go ahead and he was really nice, he understood, but I only missed like two weeks as long as I made it up, but then I came back and spring training was like the first of May and we were going to Newton, North Carolina in 1952. I approached him as soon as I found out, which was in February, and he said, “Okay, this next semester, I notice your conduct is going down and if you can get your conduct up you’re allowed to go”, so I had to button up a little. 22:21 Interviewer: “Shall we get into the conduct part of this or not?” I was a prankster and I got that from my brother. Interviewer: “So no more pranks?” No, I was an angel believe me. It was hard but--Interviewer: “So the first season when you came back from playing, what was the reaction, you say it was a small town, what was the reaction from your family, from the town, were you treated differently?” Well, in a way I was and they were very happy because after that we had spring training and the teams came through, like I said, that one night with Kenosha, Wisconsin and Fort Wayne released me to play with them and I pitched in front of my home town and we had 8 �three thousand people and our town was only two thousand five hundred, so the neighboring people came and baseball was very popular. My brother played for Minster, so we played against each other one time. 23:22 They treated me perfect and I was a star. Interviewer: “So you got past the rookie status even though you didn’t feel that way, but you got past that and now we’re going into 1952 and it’s your second season. Tell us about that, was there anything different about coming to play” Oh yeah, we heard that Jimmy Foxx was the manager, the Jimmy Foxx, he was like Babe Ruth and we thought wow, you know we’re playing under this guy? He was super nice just unbelievable, he couldn’t believe it that the girls were so good and coming from him you had to be pretty good. He was just—he was like a second dad to me, we really clicked and he brought me in from outfield and he said, “you’re going to play third base because you got that arm and that long distance”, so I had accuracy, that was the biggest thing and then he was running out of pitchers and they didn’t have savers or what they have now days, and so I would also pitch and because I had accuracy and fast ball was my main pitch. 24:58 Interviewer: “Tell us about being the pitcher, what was the strategy there? Did you have many different types of throws?” No, I didn’t have very many—I didn’t have a curve ball, knuckle ball or anything like that. All I had was a fast ball and then I found out from the other pitchers that if you slowed it down a little, different speeds, change up would throw the batters off, which I noticed some did because we had a lot of good pitchers and if they changed up, my gosh, you were way ahead waiting for that fast ball to come in and you would strike out. I tried it and it really worked for me and also my catcher was very, very intelligent, she knew all of the players and what they liked—inside ball, outside ball and since I was so accurate, because I had really worked on accuracy, I think I hit one person ever and I felt so bad I never threw another inside pitch. 26:04 That was mostly it and I think my ERA speaks for itself because I think I only lost two games the second year. Interviewer: “Was there a difference, in terms of your playing, between the first manager and then when Jimmy came in, did you feel that you played better?” I played better because Jimmy was a hitter and I loved to hit the ball. I remember one time I was up to the plate and he said, “Gosh, did you live on a farm and milk cows?” I thought, “Wow, does it show?” I was thinking about smelling the manure and all that and thought, “wow” and he said, “no, because I was on a farm and you got a wrist action like a farmer”, like milking cows because that’s where I got my wrist action. 27:00 I thought, “way to go”, and I hated to milk those cows and here it was the greatest thing I ever did. I’ll never forget that though because I looked at him and I thought, “wow”, I thought maybe I looked like a farmer, I didn’t know. 9 �Interviewer: “Did he actually show you specific things to do that maybe you had not done before, techniques and things like that?” He just told me that I was a natural, a natural hitter and my last—1954 I was only eighteen or nineteen years old and I was batting three twenty eight and that was my final batting average. 27:41 Interviewer: “52”, are there any highlights that you can think of? You mentioned having a new manager and that was a big thing, but in terms of plays, in terms of games you may have played, is there anything that sticks out from that year?” I played more, I played a lot of games, I was in every game, except when I pitched, and normally he gave me a night or two off. I also played different positions if somebody got hurt, like second base, he would put me in or first base, whatever-- because again, we heard rumors that pretty soon there wouldn’t be girls baseball, but we just thought they were rumors because Fort Wayne did real well, but South Bend, Studebaker went out, so they were no longer there and that really affected the crowds in South Bend. 28:34 Interviewer: “We’ll get back there in a minute, but I want to get back to the idea that Jimmy was having you go to different position. Was that unusual? Did all of the girls have that ability—just put them here, put them there?” A few, just a very few. Most of them just had their regular positions, like Dotty Schroeder, she would always play shortstop. I never saw her play any other position. Willy Briggs, left field, Tybee Eisen, center field—the outfielders were sort of set. Interviewer: “You were kind of, for Jimmy anyway, if he really needed somebody.” Oh yeah, he could rely on me and besides he didn’t like me on the bench. 29:20 Interviewer: “So now the second year—how were the crowds the second year? Still the same numbers?” Fort Wayne was great, the same numbers. People really—and we didn’t get harassed at all, called “tomboys” or anything like that. Those people—well, the early forerunners in the forties set the tone and we didn’t have any problems. Everybody else knew that it was still a men’s game, but we never got any kind of harassment call or you know. 29:57 Interviewer: “Now the first year and the second year, you were going on the road too, right?” Yeah Interviewer: “So, what were the road trips like?” 10 �Oh, they were excellent, we would get in the bus and everybody would try to get in the back of the bus, but they were excellent and we would start singing our songs and everything like that and South Bend wasn’t too far, but in Rockford, Illinois we would leave after the game and all night and get there maybe like four o’clock in the morning, go to the hotel and sign in at the hotel. Again, we wouldn’t play or be at the ballpark until four o’clock, so normally we took in a movie. 30:42 That was normally it and after the game we had two hours before our curfew and we would have to be in because the manager was right there and the chaperone was right there and we knew when to come in. 30:56 Interviewer: “You hadn’t traveled very much in terms of from your childhood and now you’re traveling. Did you get an opportunity to spend any time in the towns that you went to other than to see a movie or something?” Well, sometimes, but not really, but spring training, that was my first spring training and we got to go to Newton, North Carolina and I got my first train ride and I was excited. Then when I went down south they had a whole different language, you know that drawl and especially in Newton, North Carolina I remember people would---and I was playing outfield and there was one kid in the stand near right field and he said, “hey Yankee go home”, and I said, “Yankee, I’m a Reds fan”, and he said, “communist”, and I thought, “what is this?” 31:48 I had no idea, but we made it and it was nice. People treated us great, but again the food was different you know, hominy and grits, hominy and grits, oh yuck. I was use to cereal, bacon, eggs and stuff like that. They didn’t have it; they had hominy and grits everyday. I used to go across the street and get a hamburger. 32:21 Interviewer: “Where in the south did you go?” Newton, North Carolina and played around, like another team like Kenosha or another team that would train there. We would stay at a big boarding house, one team, and again we were not allowed to fraternize with another team, so even though they stayed down a block or whatever, we weren’t allowed to talk to them. After the game we never shook hands or say, “nice game”, because they thought we would throw the game or something, I don’t know what their thinking was. That was also in the men’s though and actually it still is, but the media now is so great that they have to talk back and forth. I think that’s what happened. 33:05 Interviewer: “So, after your second season, were you making fairly decent money by that time?” Oh yes, at that time I was making seventy dollars. I went up twenty dollars. Interviewer: “What were you doing with the money?” Well, I saved my money and I paid for my own—well, we didn’t have too much book money then for school and I was still in high school, but I paid for my own clothes and everything like that and the rest I just saved until I could buy a car. Interviewer: “Were you sending money home?” 11 �No, not really, I kept my own. My mom let me keep it, she said, “you’re in charge”, so I put it in the bank. Interviewer: “That’s great. Now, 1953—I know, of course we all know now that we’re getting to the end of the league although, you didn’t know it.” It just never dawned on us, we just thought it was rumor, but 1953 was a good year. Bill Ellington was my manager, and again we went down south and played ball and I was use to that and the train and that was to me like having an airplane ride. I got on the all-stars for third baseman and won the all-star game by pitching up to the thirteenth inning, I think I pitched from the ninth inning to the thirteenth and we won the game four to three. 34:49 Interviewer: “How does one get chosen for the all-star game?” They take everybody in the league and compare their averages and everything with everybody else—hitting, fielding, so I played more third base then because what threw me off on the other years was because I also pitched, so I had double duty, but I was hitting well, I hardly had any errors and they brought me on the all-star team. 35:27 Interviewer: “What was your reaction when you found out?” I was ecstatic, but I didn’t know I was going to end up pitching in the game you know. Interviewer: “Mostly you’re a third baseman.” I was chosen for third base and then he needed a pitcher because it was extra innings and he put me in because he knew I was accurate, so I went in pitching and won the game. My roommate hit the home run to win the game. 35:53 Interviewer: “Tell us about the game.” Oh, it was exciting and there’s a picture in one of the books that somebody wrote. I was just so happy, my roommate and I, we had big headlines in the paper. Interviewer: “Walk us through the game. How did it open up? How was the beginning, the first inning?” Well, we always start it with the opposing team lining up on third base and we were on first base V for victory, we always honored the veterans and the American flag, the whole ball of wax just like the regular ball games and I was playing third base and you’re asking me who we played, but it was the second team that was next to us, that’s who we had to play. All the other all-stars, Fort Wayne, we were in first place, so I played with Fort Wayne and we played against the all-stars, so our team playing against Fort Wayne as the 12 �all-stars. We beat the all-stars and like I said, we were very young. A lot of us were young and I think the oldest one was twenty-five, so anyway, it was thrilling. 37:18 Interviewer: “How did the game open? How were the first few innings? Was it a slam-dunk from the beginning? Well it was—nobody could get a hit. I think Winsch pitched and she was good, so she pitched and she was the number one pitcher and she was excellent. She had curve balls, drop balls, you name it, and she was good. Interviewer: “How did you do against her?” I think I did all right; I had two for four, so I thought that was pretty good. Interviewer: “How was the middle of the inning? Were you still going?” Oh, we were battling; it was a terrific game for the fans because they just enjoyed it. It probably was the longest game you know, we didn’t have all these gizmos like helmets to put on and knee wraps or anything like that. It bothers me and I noticed somebody said our games were two hours or two and a half hours and that game was like three hours and that was really long and like I said, we speeded it up because we didn’t have all that although, our pitching style is totally different from what they do now. 38:31 I had a full wind up going like this then throwing the ball in. Interviewer: “So when was the moment when it really determined the game was going to go your way?” Well, not until Jeanne hit the home run. I mean it was deadlocked and it looked like we were going to be there all night until Jeanne Geissinger hit the home run and we were in happyville. Interviewer: “That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful—when that was over, and the season was over and when you went home, was there a different reaction this time?” 39:10 Well, we got in the playoffs, but we never won the playoffs for some odd reason, I don’t know what it was—just tired, so actually it started the beginning of 1954 when we went to spring training we came through Ohio and some games in all of these little towns that would bring the fans, so they would look for the players and another town that was pretty good and semi-pro teams were there, so we played in my home town. My nephews came out, they were just little like four or five years old and I played against my brother. That’s when we played against the men and the men would pitch against the men and the women would pitch against the women and then we beat them. 40:11 That was terrific and like I said, there were like—there’s only like two thousand five hundred in our town and I think there was a crowd of two thousand eight hundred and that was terrific because I pitched and I won. 13 �Interviewer: “You said your cousins, were other members of your family there?” No, my nephews and my brothers were there and my family and of course all my classmates. I was pretty nervous and that’s the only time I remember being really nervous because everybody was counting on me. 40:53 Interviewer: “What about the catholic… was it the priest?” Yeah, he was there and he was praying for me. Interviewer: “That must have been a pretty proud moment for you.” Yes, very emotional and everybody talked about that game. They had flyers out, Katie Horstman and Armstrong Airport which is just five miles down the road took a plane and threw out flyers saying that we were coming into town. 41:23 Interviewer: “Do you remember after the game whether the father came up to you? Did he?” I think he came to the Wooden Shoe Inn, which is a big restaurant right in town and they treated us to a chicken dinner. They were famous for chicken dinner and he came and was very proud of me. Interviewer: “He had to be considering the fact that he started the game when you were there.” He’s still living and I still go back there and see him. He does mass every once and a while and he’s retired, but excellent. Interviewer: “Wow, wow, we should send him a copy of this.” Oh yeah, he would love it. His name is Father Shuey, ordained and handsome, everyone went out for CYO. I never even knew half the kids could play you know. I think about fifty kids came out and we couldn’t take care of fifty and we ended up with twenty. 42:18 Interviewer: “So, are there any other highlights from 1953 that you can think of?” Just that I was becoming more involved and playing more games, like everyday unless I pitched and I would get time off and my batting average kept going up, I think it was like two eighty nine, but again the ball was a little bit bigger than the regular ball. Now, coming into 1954 they couldn’t find those balls anymore and they weren’t going to make them because they didn’t know if the league was going to fold in the middle or when, so they didn’t want all these balls, so then we played with a regular baseball. Oh my god how easy, I mean girl’s hands are smaller then men and I could grip that ball, wow, and 14 �hit it. 43:14 We were hitting home runs galore, so it was the best thing that ever happened. Bill Allington became our coach and he was strict. When we went on the road, he would have thirty questions and you better read that rulebook and you better answer them right or you had laps to run. He was strict, which was very good and I believed in discipline. I had discipline from my mom and dad and of course with eight kids you have discipline. I had nuns in school although, it was a public school, Precious Blood where the father came in, and they were strict, with rulers, the ruler sisters, and when I came into baseball and saw all those rules—I was born with discipline, so I didn’t mind it. Although, you always try to see if you can beat the system, right? 44:21 Interviewer: “So, coming into 1954 was the atmosphere at all different in terms of either the moral of the teams?” No, except that we were all praying that it wouldn’t end because then they kept—like in the middle of the season they said they didn’t think it was going to continue because they couldn’t afford it and you know, different ownerships of different teams. Fort Wayne was great, For Wayne was solid, but the other teams—television came in and people would go to see the guy’s play and we also, couldn’t find girls. We had like Jr. Daisies, Blue Sox, and Jr. Blue Sox similar to a minor league team and they were anxious to come up, but we didn’t have enough of them. They only had like two teams and they would play against each other in each town. 45:21 Interviewer: “How about the fans, was there any difference? I don’t mean about being enthused or anything like that, but number?” Well, that went down because they were watching television. They had more things to do and in wartime it was very restricted like gas rationing and all of that stuff, so that was no more and they could go place and you know, more things to see. Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you a question that at the time you might not have been able to answer, but I’ll just pose it anyway. Was there anytime up until 1954 that you actually thought this would be a career you would be doing? You were a really young girl.” 46:07 Oh I know, I was just getting in my prime. No, I thought it would last forever. To me I prayed everyday that it would last forever, but after 1954, most people don’t know, but then Bill Allington got a group of us, eleven of us, twelve with him, two cars and we went all over the United States, except for the east, and we played against the men. We had a bookie out of Omaha, Matt Pascal was his name, and he would get the schedule maybe two weeks ahead of time so we would know. We would play a game, go to the next town, play another game and we had a hundred and ten games, the same as we did for the Daisies. We played every day, but we had to travel. You only had a duffle bag, that’s all you could have, your uniform and whatever. We were always in the laundry room, but like I said, we weren’t like the Silver Bullets, like Phil Niekro did, they played against the men. 47:13 At that time that never would have worked because nobody would come to the game and we didn’t want to say that, “hey, we’re stronger and better than you”, the men, although a lot of times we were except when we played the triple A 15 �teams, the semi-pro teams, they were good, but we had their pitcher and catcher and they would pitch against them and we would pitch against the girls, so we won most of our ball games. Every four o’clock we would advertise, beside the posters that we had, that map. We would go in the fire truck and run around town in the fire truck telling people that the game was at seven o’clock they would announce it. It was thrilling and I saw the whole United States except for the east. 47:55 That was wonderful to me because I loved traveling. Interviewer: “This is after 1954 though?” This is after 1954—55,56,57 we did that for three years. Interviewer: “Let’s go back to 1954 though, when did you find out and how did you find out that it was over?” Well, I think it was after the play offs and then they said, “count on not being here next year. I think that we may not have teams”, and we all knew that was the end 48:34. Interviewer: “What was the reaction?” The reaction was very, very sad, we counted on it, especially the very young ones, and we were just getting into our prime. I thought, “my god, what are we going to do? We got to work”. That was our biggest reaction, what are we going to do? Here I just got out of high school and I thought, “wow, not I got to look for a job”, so that was most of us, we were very, very upset. 49:09 Interviewer: “How was your last year though playing?” My last year, my god, I batted three twenty eight, I think, and pitched and won I don’t know how many games, but it was excellent because I loved that little baseball you know. The size changed to a regular baseball and it was tremendous you know. You just could hit it harder, throw it harder, everything, I just enjoyed it. When I was a kid playing with my brothers that’s the ball we used and I was use to it, so it came back and I was very happy about it. 49:49 Interviewer: “Any highlights that you can think of from 1954? What really sticks out to you that may have been the big ones?” Well, just my hitting, I hit a lot of home runs and I was a long ball hitter because I didn’t like sliding in the short skirts. I did that once at second base and oh my god that hurt. I always made sure I get a single, a double, a triple or a home run. I wanted to make sure I would get to that base without sliding. Interviewer: “You say you went through three years of playing with this kind of team that was kind of put together after the end.” Yeah, Bill Allington and we had spring training—like we went to Arlington, Texas, that’s where we had our first spring training and we played amongst ourselves first to warm up 16 �and then we played all the teams coming through Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico you know, he had them all booked for us. 50:55 Interviewer: “This is still professional ball though and you’re still getting paid?” Oh yeah, we changed our name to All American that was it, All American Girls Professional Baseball rather than saying Fort Wayne Daisies or something like that, but we had the same uniforms. Interviewer: “What did you end up doing after you—did you continue to play baseball after three years or what?” Well, I was in Fort Wayne, Indiana and I didn’t want to go back to school because it was so much fun it sort of spoiled me from going to get my education or further my education you know, so three of us rookies went to the cookie factory in Fort Wayne, Archway I think it was called, and anyway two days was like an eternity and I couldn’t take it anymore watching the cookies and besides I would have gotten thrown out because we started throwing cookies you know, we were bad and we didn’t like that kind of work. I went right to IUPU extension and signed up—I’m going back to school, so I started college at IU Purdue. 52:03 Ernie, I can’t think of his last name now, Ernie Burns or Ernie anyway, he was the general manager for the Daisies and he was also the general manager for the Fort Wayne Comets hockey team, and so I needed a part time job while I was going to school ,so he signed me up that I could work in the office with the tickets and I got to meet all the players and stuff and went to the coliseum. It was great and I had a good part time job and went to school, to college. I did that for two years and then—gosh I don’t know what I did afterwards, after school, anyway, I was twenty-five years of age. 53:00 When I was twenty-five years of age I went to medical records--oh, I worked at Burnham City Hospital and stayed with Dotty Schroeder’s parents and I went part time to Illinois State University then and came back and worked at Burnham City Hospital for a year in admissions because I was always interested in medicine and everything and I was sort of in pre-med. Then the medical record librarian came to me and she said, “you can make a lot more money being in medical records”, so I talked with her and sort of worked with her on weekends and everything. 53:38 I went to St. Elizabeth’s Hospital in Danville, Illinois and spent a whole year with the Franciscan Sisters of Sacred Heart from Mokena, Illinois and she was our instructor and only ten people could enter the school and you had to have two years of college and then a year of practice at the hospital to become a Registered Medical Records Librarian. 54:09 They were making good money, like a hundred dollars a week, and at that time it was super money, so I was all for that, but then I got to know the sisters and I thought they were super, and then I got a calling to go to the convent, so two days after I graduated from there I entered the Franciscan Sisters of the Sacred Heart in Mokena, Illinois. I went to the convent, was a nun five years, it was really a nursing order except for some elementary schools, so the reverend mother decided to have a Sacred Heart Academy, a high school and she didn’t want any lay people and she understood that I played baseball and she asked me if I wanted to be a phys-ed teacher, well she didn’t ask me you just did it—some more discipline for me. 55:04 So I went to DePaul, Loyola and Illinois—I 17 �don’t know, it was another university there because I needed drivers ed and DePaul didn’t have driver ed, so I went to that other college and got my driver ed and went to DePaul and graduated from there in 1965. I taught at the academy because I had two years of college I could do that in that private school and I taught in a private academy and the girls were super. 55:44 Interviewer: “Did the girls know? Did you let them know?” Well, later on they found out—DePaul grads you know, my picture was in the Sun Times with my habit playing soccer, so I made headlines. I also got in a lot of trouble with those state students because I would—one day I drove the reverend mother into town and I could drive because I was I was older. Most nuns who were becoming nuns were under twenty-five, like eighteen, nineteen, twenty and she knew I could drive since I was teaching drivers ed anyhow. I had to drop her off downtown and I went up town to Fullerton Avenue to DePaul University and the state student saw that I had a car, a big Cadillac, you know people give stuff to the religious, so eleven o’clock came around and they said, “hey Sister John Anthony, (that was my name) hey, let’s go to the baseball game today the Cubs are playing”, and I said, “Cubs, yeah, but who are they playing?” And they said, “The Reds, the Cincinnati Reds”. Because I was always talking about Reds, Johnny Bench, Pete Rose and I said, “I can’t go, I don’t have any money and I don’t think I’m allowed to go and I don’t think the reverend mother would like it”. 57:09 “We’ll never tell, you don’t need money and we’ll pay your way in”, and I thought, “ oh gosh, should I or shouldn’t I? Well, what can it hurt, kids want to go”, so guys and gals, we all piled in the car, I think I had ten of them and the Cubs ball park wasn’t too far from Fullerton Avenue, so I wouldn’t use much gas, so we come up there, the parking is horrendous, so I went right up there and he said, “hey lady what are you trying to do?” And I said, “I want to know where I can park?” he saw my habit and he said, “oh, sister the vice president isn’t here today, so you can park right here. Wow, the co-eds, “way to go Sister John Anthony”, and I was a hero. 57:57 He said, “do you have tickets?” I said, “tickets, I don’t even have any money”, and he said, “well he wasn’t going to be there, so we could have his box seats”, so here I was, I was a hero. I mean I felt so good. The Cubs were beating the Reds you know, so the ninth inning, the Reds and I was going “way to go Cincinnati”, and I’d get all excited. I didn’t think anything about it—came down, went and took them back to school ok, picked up reverend mother. The Archbishop came into town, new Archbishop, so she had to meet him or something, so we went back to Mokena and during vespers, it was just after six o’clock we would pray the vespers, and all at once I get this tap on the shoulder and it’s the reverend mother. We went out in the hall and she said, “Where were you this afternoon?” I said, “why? You know I was at DePaul University I had things to do, study, went to my classes and everything. 59:04 She said, “then how come I saw you on television cheering for the Reds?” I never thought about it and I said, “mother, we’re not allowed to watch television”, and she said, “the Archbishop was in town and I met with him and she was on television. They interrupted the program saying that one of your nuns was cheering the ball game”. Well, she didn’t like that too well and that was only one incident, so anyway in 1965 left the convent before my final vows. Then I worked at the medical records library in Dyer, Indiana and then taught in Gary, Indiana the next following and 18 �spent my summers and a year at Miami University in Ohio because I got my masters degree and if you taught there your education was free at the college. :08 I took a big deduction coming from Indiana to Ohio, but it all worked out the same. I got my masters then I worked five years teaching phys-ed and science at Kendallville Jr. High in Kendallville, Indiana. Then I came back to my home town, that’s when title nine was trying to come out, 1972 to 1975, so I became the phys-ed teacher there and actually jr. high school and high school that’s all I would have, but I said, “why do you want to start a program in jr. high? Why don’t you start it?” Illinois has a super phys-ed program, they still do, they have phys-ed every day from the first grade to the twelfth, but these other states don’t have that, once a week or whatever, and Minster, my home town, didn’t even have a phys-ed program for the elementary. They only had jr. high and freshman and sophomore and I said, “What do you want to do that for? Start with the little kids”, so I did, I had the whole nine classes per day; I really loaded myself up, but stayed there a long time. 1:23 So then the teams started coming out where we could play state tournaments and that’s what I wanted, I wanted to be a coach, I had a great desire. So we had track the very first thing in Ohio and that was in 1975, so we had a track team and came in runner up in the state. The kids didn’t know anything about running. They had no idea what a discus or a shot put looked like because we didn’t have boys track either, until we started the girls track program. Then we were very successful, 1976 through 1980 we were the state champs in our division, three divisions in track, and then 1982, 1985 and 1989, so we got eight state track titles and they talked me into cross country. The first year, 1982, the girls, state champions, so I was very successful in that. 2:23 The town loved me and I loved them, that’s why I go back there all the time. Interviewer: “You stayed in sports, of course you stayed in education, stayed in sports, when did you start to realize that other people were recognizing what you had done when you were just a teenager in your early days with the All American Girls. Was there a time when you started to realize that people were knowing about that?” You mean as far as playing baseball? Interviewer: Yes Well, it was sort of dead because we all went our own way, we communicated, and I communicated with the Weaver sisters and Dotty Schroeder and some of the others. We always wrote Christmas cards, that was one thing we always did. To our teammates, but eventually that falls apart too, so until they started the reunion and I think that was in 1982, it was forty years after we quit, well, yeah forty years I think. 3:40 We met in Chicago for reunion, everybody was sort of hesitant, like in the movie, should I go or shouldn’t I, I probably won’t recognize anybody, but everybody remembered the voices or the walk or whatever and it was hilarious you know. “Is that really you?” Because everybody changed so much and got so much older. The people that were twenty were in their sixties—grey hair, white hair and thank God we had name tags. Once we got use to it all these memories flowed back, but that was one heck of a nice thing to do. 4:27 19 �Interviewer: “You look back on that period of time as just part of the evolution, I imagine, of your becoming the person that you are now. That was just one part of it right? When did you realize that other people were looking at that period as something very unusual and very special? Am I making myself clear?” Oh yeah, first of all there wasn’t professional baseball for women—ended, it’s the only time in history that was an organization where you got paid and professional. Jo Weaver was a super runner, but she couldn’t enter the Olympics because the Olympics at that time was amateur, so she couldn’t go to Olympics and she could have made it easily. We had to understand that from that period until about 1970, girls athletics were taboo except for CYO, anything voluntary, GAA, Girls Athletic Association, that’s all that kids had. 5:35 When I came back to Minster I thought, “wow, these kids don’t have anything, at least I got something playing baseball and I got an education and I was taught in Illinois where the phys-ed system is super”. I never played soccer or field hockey or anything like that, so I came back there and I wanted to give something back to my town where they appreciated me and so I started the whole program. 6:04 Interviewer: “Looking back on that period, and you have a lot of things to smile about, do you think that particular period had an affect on you and the person you are today? You were a teen and a young girl at that time. Was there anything that happened then that you can look back on and say, “That helped me get here?” What I did then, I wanted my girls in Minster to feel the same way that I did, that they had an opportunity, they got a chance, “ok girls let’s go out”. It wasn’t easy , now you’re talking about Germans, and the boys were still on one side of the room and girls were on the other side. Phys-ed was still segregated; girls only, boys only and boys had a hard time with it. 7:03 We didn’t as much and I was very fortunate to have some super athletes that didn’t even know it because they never had a chance. I know how they felt because I thought I was going to be stuck on the farm. I thought, “whoa, we gotta do something”, and if we do something great people and if you have discipline—I put rules out, no drinking, no this or you’re suspended, I didn’t even give them one chance. I said, “this is it, if you want this we’re going to have to do it right and get on top immediately”, so that’s what we did. 7:37 Like I said, “My athletes do it now because they’re continuing my tradition over there because we twenty-three titles in that town and one title for boys”. We showed them. Interviewer: “Thank you so much, it was wonderful and you were wonderful.” I don’t know, but I did get in five halls of fames with Annie Oakley, who was one of my idols, The Ohio Women’s Hall of Fame with Doris Day and I was real happy about that and of course and the National Track Coach Hall of Fame and the Ohio Track Hall of Fame and in the Western Buckeye League. 20 �21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_KHorstman Title A name given to the resource Horstman, Katie (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Horstman Katie Description An account of the resource Katie Horstman was born on April 14, 1935 in Minster, Ohio. Before joining the All American Girls Professional Baseball League she played baseball with her brother John. She started playing softball with the Catholic Youth Organization (CYI). At 15, Horstman started her professional career when Max Carey signed her to play for the Fort Wayne Daisies. In her first season of 1951 she played for the Kenosha Comets and the Fort Wayne Daisies as a pitcher and outfielder. Under Coach Jimmy Foxx in 1952, During her second season, in 1952 she played under Jimmy Foxx who switched her to play as a utility infielder. In 1953, she played for the Fort Wayne Daisies and the All Star Team as a third baseman and pitched part of an all-star game. Her biggest highlight was finishing her final season with a batting average of three twenty eight just as the All American Girls Professional League was ending. Afterwards, Horstman went on to become a Physical Education teacher. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Indiana Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7f557900793211aa7f56c1e7c82cebe7.m4v 358c7facb71e3867489b09e588533994 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d3822c283ef9e881f0436359490972a9.pdf 7068b035c13e1c96833a85fd9a623ac0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Annemarie Hortman World War II – Civilian Part 1 – 1 hour 56 minutes 24 seconds (00:00:18) Early Life - Rangsdorf -Born in Rangsdorf, Germany, on April 14, 1939 -Mother worked before Annemarie’s birth, but stayed home to care for her -Father served in the Wehrmacht in Italy -Uncle served on the Russian Front and was killed-in-action -Father beat her, because he hated her -It was a relief for him to report for service and go away -Forced her to goosestep like a fascist soldier, and he hit her if she didn’t walk right (00:03:34) Early Life – Ingolstadt -Moved to Ingolstadt (near Munich) when she was a year old and mother was pregnant with brother -Traveled there by train -Remembers the train stopping by a ditch, and the passengers being ordered off the train -Heard an air raid siren -Didn’t know what it meant -Stayed in Ingolstadt until September 1940 -Stayed with her mother and grandmother -Put a blanket in front of the windows at night because of air raids -Never remembers her mother giving the Nazi salute -Remembers a siren at night -Told to put on two pairs of underwear and socks, a winter coat, boots, a hat, and gloves -Mother and grandmother had bag full of important documents and family jewelry -Went to the bomb shelter in Ingolstadt -Built into a hill -Went through an iron door, down a flight of concrete steps into a concrete chamber -There were wooden benches along the walls -Noticed there was no other exit, and started to cry -Then she looked up and saw air vents, which comforted her -Came back to her grandmother’s house after the raid and saw it was fine -Brother was born in Ingolstadt in August 1940 (00:18:40) Early Life – Return to Rangsdorf -Moved into another house when they returned to Rangsdorf -Remembers an old man that was their neighbor -All of the children called him “uncle” and loved him -Lived in a duplex house on the ground floor -Remembers a woman that lived there that her mother instructed her to call “aunt” -She and her brother were never allowed to go too far from the house -Remembers she and her brother breaking their mother’s umbrella by using it like a small boat -The house they lived in belonged to a Nazi officer -The woman they called “aunt” was the officer’s wife -Father came home during this time -The Nazi officer came back, and they never saw him or the “aunt” ever again -Her mother was allowed more food because she had two children �-Father brought home canned fruit from Italy, but didn’t give any of it to the family -He brought it to his mistress instead -Lived in several different houses in Rangsdorf -Only moved personal belongings, never furniture -Moved from cottage to cottage (most likely former vacation homes of wealthy Germans) -Always had the feeling that someone lived there, and there were forbidden rooms -Most likely Jewish citizens hiding in the houses -Stayed in a larger house for one night in the last two years of the war -Stayed with an older man -She and her family lived upstairs (00:32:34) The Fall of Germany Pt. 1 -Russians bombed them day and night -Always going up and down the stairs, stopped bothering to change clothes -Remembers a Russian bomb landing near the house -Adult went upstairs and went outside -She got a bloody nose -Possibly from the concussion -All but that house and one other house survived -The rest of the neighborhood was destroyed -Numerous neighbors killed in that raid -Last major action she remembers of the war (00:38:09) Food in the War -Mother usually bought flour, sugar, and other basic food items -Remembers her younger brother expressing his younger -Knows that some neighbors got extra food -Most likely feeding hidden Jewish citizens -Near the end of the war, resorted to eating beets, dandelions, and wild nuts -The old man they lived with found some fresh tomatoes and gave them to Annemarie’s mother (00:41:45) The Fall of Germany Pt. 2 -In 1945, the war came closer to Rangsdorf -Russians were on the offensive, pushing toward Berlin -Dealt with five or six months of near continuous air raids and bombardment -Starvation was more of a problem for her during the war than direct violence (00:43:03) Russian Occupation -Russians came into Rangsdorf and labeled anything they wanted as “contraband” -Confiscated the “contraband” for themselves -Remembers a Russian soldier choking her, her brother, and her mother -Neighbor got her and her brother away from the soldier -The Russian soldier gave up the intimidation and left -She told her mother that she hated the Russians -Mother told her never to hate anyone just because of their country of origin -Stuck with her her whole life -Also told Annemarie to question why the Russians were so violent -Possibly getting revenge for how Germans treated Russians -She and other children hid in a neighbor’s rabbit cages when Russian soldiers came around -Remembers playing near a bomb shelter -Russian soldier ordered her to get away from it -There was a live bomb near the shelter; soldier didn’t want Annemarie to get hurt -Russians took food from the grocery store �-German men tried to get some boxes of food while a Russian plane strafed them -Mother went down to the grocery store and grabbed a box of food while being shot at -Wound up being a box of candy, not real food like she wanted -Russians came the next day and took everything, even Annemarie’s backpack -One of the Russian soldiers broke a candy bar in half -Gave each half to Annemarie and her brother -Russian soldiers routinely searched their house -Cut open the mattress to look for mattress (00:53:38) Living in Post-War Rangsdorf -Moved into an abandoned villa -Father came home briefly after the war, then visited periodically to steal food -Bringing the stolen food to his mistress in Berlin -Got Annemarie’s mother pregnant -Her mother found out the name and address of the mistress -Confronted the mistress, said she was pregnant, and to leave the father alone -Mistress refused -Moved to another place in Ramsdorf around Christmas 1946 -She and her brother gathered pine branches to give to their mother to make her happy -Father tried to take away the pine branches, but her mother intervened -Mother took the pine branches to Berlin, and traded them for a little food as a Christmas gift -While her father was home, Annemarie got in a fight and lost -She came home from the fight, crying, and her father beat her -Told her to go find the boy, fight him again, and win (which she did) Tape stops here, and starts at (00:00:00) for Part 2, however this is not the “Part 2 disc” (00:00:11) Living in Post-War Ingolstadt -Father visited only to steal food -Mother decided to leave Rangsdorf in 1947 -Moved back to Ingolstadt and stayed with her grandmother (mother’s mother) for a while -Ingolstadt had been bombed, but was in better shape than Rangsdorf -Occupied by American soldiers, not Russian soldiers -Collected coal from trains -She and her brother took a train to Berlin for an adventure -Brother decided they should climb across the bridge’s structure to get over the rail yard -Police officer caught her and her brother at the other side of the bridge -Put them on a bridge back to Rangsdorf (00:05:02) Getting to Ingolstadt -Mother decided they needed to leave Rangsdorf to get away from the father -Went to Berlin and got stopped by German officials -Ordered to return to Rangsdorf -Mother, Annemarie’s infant sister, little brother, and herself started walking on the highway -Remembers sleeping under an overpass -Kept walking and got to the East/West German border -Russian soldiers forbade them from going through the checkpoint -An old German man told them to go off the road, under a bridge, into the woods -Stayed quiet and walked through the woods -Waited for the Russian guard to pass, then they continued -Ate a can of cold soup then passed into West Germany �-Stood at the top of a hill and could still see the Russian checkpoint -Picked up the highway and continued walking until they reached a train station in Bavaria -Mother put them on a train and planned on joining them later -Annemarie and her brother got off the train, but their mother wasn’t there -Red Cross officials cared for them until their mother came back to the train station -Finally boarded a train together and got to Ingolstadt (00:19:50) Interactions with Russian Soldiers -Remembers learning a Russian swear word from watching Russian soldiers trying to ride a bike -They heard her repeating it and told her not to say it because it was a bad word -Some of the Russians spoke limited German -One female Russian soldier taught them how to ask for food from Russian soldiers -Taught them a word that would endear them to the Russians -Showed her that not all of the Russian soldiers were bad (00:22:56) Living in Ingolstadt (Post War) Pt. 1 -Grandfather had everything confiscated by the Nazis, for speaking against Hitler -Lost his home, job, and truck -Sent to an insane asylum, then jail, then used for hard labor -In 1947 he built a new house in Ingolstadt -Grandfather had been a baker, but also made money dealing in scrap metal and scrap clothing -Released from custody after the war -Found his confiscated vehicle in the possession of a Nazi officer -Officer’s mother sold it to him -Officer came home and forced the grandfather to buy it again -By 1947 he had rebuilt his life -They stayed with her grandfather in Ingolstadt -Grandfather had a cow that Annemarie cared for -Built a barn and got a piglet -Insects chewed off the piglet’s ears, so they let it live in the house -Put it back in the barn once it was grown -Someone shot and killed the pig -Grandfather had the meat processed, but she and her family couldn’t eat it (00:32:54) Going to School Pt. 1 -Had only six months of school in Rangsdorf -Lost her hearing due to abscesses in her ears (possibly caused by bomb concussion) -Eventually resolved itself, but never completely regained her hearing (00:36:17) Living in Ingolstadt (Post War) Pt. 2 -Grandfather was self-sufficient and built everything he needed -This included buildings and necessary machines -Step-grandmother was Swiss -People disliked her because she was brutally honest and Swiss -Annemaried liked her step-grandmother because she was good and kind to Annemarie -Had trouble finding an apartment in Ingolstadt due to Germans that fled East Germany -They refused to leave Ingolstadt and returned to East Germany -Mother finally got an apartment in Ingolstadt -Remembers watching motorcycle races -There were a lot of American soldiers in Ingolstadt -Majority of them were good -Some of them were bad and committed rapes -American soldiers gave them food �-Russian soldiers had just thrown food on the ground -Amusement to watch children fight for food -Noticed some economic and social changes happening in Germany -Immediately after the war people had to buy food on credit -Grandfather gave them candy and made his own liquor -The apartment they moved into had been a former soldier’s home (00:48:57) Going to School Pt. 2 -Began going to school normally in Ingolstadt -Forced to speak High German, not Bavarian German -7th grade teacher didn’t like her very much -5th grade teacher liked her and defended her from the 7th / 8th grade teacher -Allowed her to graduate as an 8th grader despite only finishing 7th grade -Went to occupational school -Studied business for one semester, but decided she didn’t like it -Studied engineering, but didn’t complete the course -Got married before she got an engineering job -Thinks the 7th grade teacher may have been a former Nazi officer -Didn’t like Annemarie because she looked Jewish (darker hair, non-Aryan features) Part 2 – 1 hour 52 minutes 34 seconds (00:00:28) Finding a Colt -Right after the war ended they went looking for her paternal grandmother in Rangsdorf -Saw a field of dead soldiers and dead livestock -Found half of a dead soldier -She and her brother wanted their mother to fix him like a doll -Didn’t understand that a human couldn’t be fixed like that -A colt came up to them and started following them -Little brother wanted to keep the horse as a pet -Passed a wooded area and saw six dead German soldiers -Got to the village where the grandmother lived -House was bombed out and abandoned -Mother went inside and found some sugar -Went to an aunt’s apartment and it was bombed out too -Russian soldier came up and demanded the horse -The children refused -Another Russian soldier wanted to make a deal: a can of meat for the horse -Their mother insisted they make the exchange -Mother could read English -Knew it was canned pork from the United States (00:07:08) Finding a German Grenade -In a swamp near Rangsdorf she and some other children found a German hand grenade -Didn’t know what it was and they started playing catch with it -A teenager came up to them and took the grenade -Threw it into the swamp where it exploded (00:08:55) Collecting Apples -She and her brother went to the swamp near Rangsdorf to scavenge for mushrooms -One of Annemarie’s friends came along and told them where they could find apples -Brought them to an abandoned house with an apple orchard �-Filled their bag and began walking home -A Russian soldier wanted an apple, and Annemarie agreed to sell to him -He bought two apples for 20 Deutsche Marks -When she got home her mother told her to never deal with Russian soldiers again (00:12:50) Acting in Ingolstadt -Maternal grandmother and grandfather were divorced, but saw them both in Ingolstadt -Grandmother had been an actress -Got Annemarie involved with acting -She did skits where she played an old woman or another skit where she danced -Started acting when she was 12 years old and did it until she was 17 years old -Performed at beer gardens doing song and dance routines -Remembers dancing with a professional foxtrot dancer -Didn’t know she could keep up with him -Later learned that that dancer had been her grandmother’s dancing partner in the acting days (00:24:23) Meeting Her First Husband -Met her first husband through a gypsy friend -She had been at a move and three boys followed her home, and her friend drove them off -After that incident she was at a dance hall late into the night -Friend’s boyfriend’s friend (an American soldier) offered to drive her home -After that he started pursuing her -The American soldier started visiting her every weekend and writing her letters -Her mother and stepfather grew to like him -Met her first husband in 1957 -At the time she was going to school for engineering and working as a seamstress -Took an engineering test and tried to get a job with Audi -They wanted her, but the quota was filled -Asked her to come back next year, but she got married in that time -One weekend Charlie (the GI) didn’t visit or write her any letters -She worried that he was in trouble -When he showed up she realized she loved him and wanted to marry him (00:35:42) Marriage to First Husband -Made an agreement to live in Germany for a few years then move to the United States -Had a good marriage with Charlie when they lived in Germany -Had a daughter together and they were a happy family (00:37:40) Divorcing First Husband -In 1960 they moved to the United States -He flew back to the US with the Air Force -Annemarie and her daughter flew to New York City then to Pittsburgh -Her in-laws picked her up at Pittsburgh and mother-in-law instantly disliked her -Charlie showed up three days later -She found out that he was going with other women behind Annemarie’s back -Found his wallet and realized he lied about how much money he made -Gave her a meager stipend and spent the rest of his money on mistresses -Found one of his mistress's phone number -Started the divorce process and kicked him out of the house -Called the mistress and said she could have Charlie, because she didn’t want him -Moved into a trailer with her daughter, but couldn’t find a park -Ex mother-in-law had connections and kept Annemarie out of the parks -Found a private park and moved there �-Ex-mother-in-law found out where Annemarie lived -Started sending men to Annemarie to proposition her for sex to harass her -Ex mother-in-law stole Annemarie’s television -Ex mother-in-law started picking up Annemarie’s daughter from the babysitter -Had to go through five babysitters to avoid the woman -Friends advised her to get legal help -Charlie had a powerful lawyer though, stopping Annemarie from taking legal action (00:51:42) Second Marriage -Got tricked into marrying another man -Lived together from 1963 to 1964 -He abused her and her daughter -In spring 1964 she called her parents to get plane tickets to Germany -Returned to Ingolstadt with her daughter -Husband followed them two weeks later -Fortunately they worked opposite shifts in Germany -Met her old friend’s fiance and befriended him -Husband was convinced the fiance was pursuing Annemarie -Her husband tried to slit her throat then started to beat her -He left and she immediately started packing to get out of the house -He came home and punched through the door’s window -She woke up in an ambulance en route to a hospital -Wrote a letter to his boss in the US and got him sent back to the US -He left then sent tickets to her to go to the US -She couldn’t stay in Germany or he would come back -Moved to New York City -Stayed with a cousin for a couple weeks then got a job as a housekeeper for a lawyer Tape starts over at 00:00:00 however the story continues (00:00:04) Living in New York City and Oregon -Worked for the lawyer and cared for his baby girl -She had a terrible diaper rash and Annemarie cured it -Worked for the lawyer for a while until private detectives started coming to the house -Looking for Annemarie on behalf of the second husband -Went out to Oregon to be with an old friend on her wedding day -Friend decided not to get married, but fortunately it got her out of New York City -Did odd jobs and got assistance from welfare (paid for rent and electricity) -Got food from a pantry once a month -Met a couple through a friend -They were good people, had children, and Annemarie’s daughter got along with the children -Couple wanted to move back to Michigan and have Annemarie and her daughter join them -They could live with them (00:08:26) Living in Michigan -Lived with the family from Oregon -Got a job in Grand Rapids, Michigan, as a seamstress -Experienced discrimination for being an immigrant -As a result she befriended other shunned, immigrant workers -Did good work as a seamstress and got a better job �(00:14:33) Marrying Bill Hortman -Met a man named Bill through one of her coworkers -Started dating him, but was worried he would be like her previous husbands -Realized he was a good man -Married Bill Hortman -He taught her how to golf -They had two sons together, and Bill adopted her daughter -Had to get the adoption approval from Charlie -Ex-mother-in-law and her sister showed up demanding that Annemarie come home -To get married to Bill she had to get divorced from her second husband -They had separated, but never gotten a divorce -Told him that she was pregnant and that prompted him to divorce her -He dragged his feet for a while, then began the process -Annemarie told the ex-mother-in-law to leave her alone -Charlie’s mother tried to manipulate her by saying Charlie was in an abusive relationship -Annemarie told her that he could deal with it -Also had to deal with her second husband’s car payments because he couldn’t make them -She had cosigned -Eventually got away from that -Charlie’s mother stopped bothering her after seeing how Annemarie and Bill loved each other -She and Bill fought, but he never held a grudge or followed other women -Bill served in the Marines as an aircraft mechanic in World War II (00:36:57) Relationship with Parents (Adult Life) -Her mother and stepfather started visiting in 1972 -Visited every three or four years -During a visit in 2000 her stepfather had a stroke -Stepfather enjoyed the US and always wanted to stay -Flew stepfather back to Germany for treatment after his stroke for treatment by his doctor -He recovered from the stroke -In 2005 she flew back to Ingolstadt because her stepfather was in bad shape -Her mother took care of him at home -It was wonderful to see her mother in such a loving relationship (00:44:34) Annnemarie’s Biological Father -She never had contact with biological father in her adult life -She has a photo of him from the 1950s -Only keeps it as a part of the family record -Biological father had tried to molest her in Ingolstadt -Grandfather stopped him -Not long after that incident Annemarie’s mother divorced the father -He came back once to try and take her brother -Her brother had lived with him for a few years -He never let him get any gifts from Annemarie or her mother � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HortmanA1944V1 Title A name given to the resource Hortman, Annemarie (Interview outline and video 1), 2016 Description An account of the resource Annemarie Hortman was born in Rangsdorf, Germany, on April 14, 1939. When she was only a year old she moved to Ingolstadt and stayed there until September 1940. At such a young age and that early in the war she remembers getting off a train during an air raid, and going into a community bomb shelter in Ingolstadt. For the rest of the war, Annemarie lived in Rangsdorf. During the last six months of the war she experienced daily bombings due to the Soviet Union’s invasion of Germany and final push toward Berlin. After Germany’s surrender, she and her family stayed in Rangsdorf during part of the Soviet occupation enduring the random and often arbitrary brutality of the Soviet troops. In 1947, Annemarie, her mother, her brother, and sister fled Rangsdorf on foot and sneaked across the East/West German border. They walked to Ingolstadt where she lived until she got married to an American serviceman. Annemarie and her first husband had a child and moved to the United States in 1960. Due to her husband’s infidelity the first marriage failed, and after moving around the country and a second divorce, she met Bill Hortman and settled down with him in Walker, Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hortman, Annemarie Boettner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-09-16 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f3f7e8d8b716855bb7d55f9deb9abbf.m4v bea81b94a4fd3d77f6792f423f56ec74 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bbe61ac1090882b5b1630a9a57a064ee.pdf 7068b035c13e1c96833a85fd9a623ac0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Annemarie Hortman World War II – Civilian Part 1 – 1 hour 56 minutes 24 seconds (00:00:18) Early Life - Rangsdorf -Born in Rangsdorf, Germany, on April 14, 1939 -Mother worked before Annemarie’s birth, but stayed home to care for her -Father served in the Wehrmacht in Italy -Uncle served on the Russian Front and was killed-in-action -Father beat her, because he hated her -It was a relief for him to report for service and go away -Forced her to goosestep like a fascist soldier, and he hit her if she didn’t walk right (00:03:34) Early Life – Ingolstadt -Moved to Ingolstadt (near Munich) when she was a year old and mother was pregnant with brother -Traveled there by train -Remembers the train stopping by a ditch, and the passengers being ordered off the train -Heard an air raid siren -Didn’t know what it meant -Stayed in Ingolstadt until September 1940 -Stayed with her mother and grandmother -Put a blanket in front of the windows at night because of air raids -Never remembers her mother giving the Nazi salute -Remembers a siren at night -Told to put on two pairs of underwear and socks, a winter coat, boots, a hat, and gloves -Mother and grandmother had bag full of important documents and family jewelry -Went to the bomb shelter in Ingolstadt -Built into a hill -Went through an iron door, down a flight of concrete steps into a concrete chamber -There were wooden benches along the walls -Noticed there was no other exit, and started to cry -Then she looked up and saw air vents, which comforted her -Came back to her grandmother’s house after the raid and saw it was fine -Brother was born in Ingolstadt in August 1940 (00:18:40) Early Life – Return to Rangsdorf -Moved into another house when they returned to Rangsdorf -Remembers an old man that was their neighbor -All of the children called him “uncle” and loved him -Lived in a duplex house on the ground floor -Remembers a woman that lived there that her mother instructed her to call “aunt” -She and her brother were never allowed to go too far from the house -Remembers she and her brother breaking their mother’s umbrella by using it like a small boat -The house they lived in belonged to a Nazi officer -The woman they called “aunt” was the officer’s wife -Father came home during this time -The Nazi officer came back, and they never saw him or the “aunt” ever again -Her mother was allowed more food because she had two children �-Father brought home canned fruit from Italy, but didn’t give any of it to the family -He brought it to his mistress instead -Lived in several different houses in Rangsdorf -Only moved personal belongings, never furniture -Moved from cottage to cottage (most likely former vacation homes of wealthy Germans) -Always had the feeling that someone lived there, and there were forbidden rooms -Most likely Jewish citizens hiding in the houses -Stayed in a larger house for one night in the last two years of the war -Stayed with an older man -She and her family lived upstairs (00:32:34) The Fall of Germany Pt. 1 -Russians bombed them day and night -Always going up and down the stairs, stopped bothering to change clothes -Remembers a Russian bomb landing near the house -Adult went upstairs and went outside -She got a bloody nose -Possibly from the concussion -All but that house and one other house survived -The rest of the neighborhood was destroyed -Numerous neighbors killed in that raid -Last major action she remembers of the war (00:38:09) Food in the War -Mother usually bought flour, sugar, and other basic food items -Remembers her younger brother expressing his younger -Knows that some neighbors got extra food -Most likely feeding hidden Jewish citizens -Near the end of the war, resorted to eating beets, dandelions, and wild nuts -The old man they lived with found some fresh tomatoes and gave them to Annemarie’s mother (00:41:45) The Fall of Germany Pt. 2 -In 1945, the war came closer to Rangsdorf -Russians were on the offensive, pushing toward Berlin -Dealt with five or six months of near continuous air raids and bombardment -Starvation was more of a problem for her during the war than direct violence (00:43:03) Russian Occupation -Russians came into Rangsdorf and labeled anything they wanted as “contraband” -Confiscated the “contraband” for themselves -Remembers a Russian soldier choking her, her brother, and her mother -Neighbor got her and her brother away from the soldier -The Russian soldier gave up the intimidation and left -She told her mother that she hated the Russians -Mother told her never to hate anyone just because of their country of origin -Stuck with her her whole life -Also told Annemarie to question why the Russians were so violent -Possibly getting revenge for how Germans treated Russians -She and other children hid in a neighbor’s rabbit cages when Russian soldiers came around -Remembers playing near a bomb shelter -Russian soldier ordered her to get away from it -There was a live bomb near the shelter; soldier didn’t want Annemarie to get hurt -Russians took food from the grocery store �-German men tried to get some boxes of food while a Russian plane strafed them -Mother went down to the grocery store and grabbed a box of food while being shot at -Wound up being a box of candy, not real food like she wanted -Russians came the next day and took everything, even Annemarie’s backpack -One of the Russian soldiers broke a candy bar in half -Gave each half to Annemarie and her brother -Russian soldiers routinely searched their house -Cut open the mattress to look for mattress (00:53:38) Living in Post-War Rangsdorf -Moved into an abandoned villa -Father came home briefly after the war, then visited periodically to steal food -Bringing the stolen food to his mistress in Berlin -Got Annemarie’s mother pregnant -Her mother found out the name and address of the mistress -Confronted the mistress, said she was pregnant, and to leave the father alone -Mistress refused -Moved to another place in Ramsdorf around Christmas 1946 -She and her brother gathered pine branches to give to their mother to make her happy -Father tried to take away the pine branches, but her mother intervened -Mother took the pine branches to Berlin, and traded them for a little food as a Christmas gift -While her father was home, Annemarie got in a fight and lost -She came home from the fight, crying, and her father beat her -Told her to go find the boy, fight him again, and win (which she did) Tape stops here, and starts at (00:00:00) for Part 2, however this is not the “Part 2 disc” (00:00:11) Living in Post-War Ingolstadt -Father visited only to steal food -Mother decided to leave Rangsdorf in 1947 -Moved back to Ingolstadt and stayed with her grandmother (mother’s mother) for a while -Ingolstadt had been bombed, but was in better shape than Rangsdorf -Occupied by American soldiers, not Russian soldiers -Collected coal from trains -She and her brother took a train to Berlin for an adventure -Brother decided they should climb across the bridge’s structure to get over the rail yard -Police officer caught her and her brother at the other side of the bridge -Put them on a bridge back to Rangsdorf (00:05:02) Getting to Ingolstadt -Mother decided they needed to leave Rangsdorf to get away from the father -Went to Berlin and got stopped by German officials -Ordered to return to Rangsdorf -Mother, Annemarie’s infant sister, little brother, and herself started walking on the highway -Remembers sleeping under an overpass -Kept walking and got to the East/West German border -Russian soldiers forbade them from going through the checkpoint -An old German man told them to go off the road, under a bridge, into the woods -Stayed quiet and walked through the woods -Waited for the Russian guard to pass, then they continued -Ate a can of cold soup then passed into West Germany �-Stood at the top of a hill and could still see the Russian checkpoint -Picked up the highway and continued walking until they reached a train station in Bavaria -Mother put them on a train and planned on joining them later -Annemarie and her brother got off the train, but their mother wasn’t there -Red Cross officials cared for them until their mother came back to the train station -Finally boarded a train together and got to Ingolstadt (00:19:50) Interactions with Russian Soldiers -Remembers learning a Russian swear word from watching Russian soldiers trying to ride a bike -They heard her repeating it and told her not to say it because it was a bad word -Some of the Russians spoke limited German -One female Russian soldier taught them how to ask for food from Russian soldiers -Taught them a word that would endear them to the Russians -Showed her that not all of the Russian soldiers were bad (00:22:56) Living in Ingolstadt (Post War) Pt. 1 -Grandfather had everything confiscated by the Nazis, for speaking against Hitler -Lost his home, job, and truck -Sent to an insane asylum, then jail, then used for hard labor -In 1947 he built a new house in Ingolstadt -Grandfather had been a baker, but also made money dealing in scrap metal and scrap clothing -Released from custody after the war -Found his confiscated vehicle in the possession of a Nazi officer -Officer’s mother sold it to him -Officer came home and forced the grandfather to buy it again -By 1947 he had rebuilt his life -They stayed with her grandfather in Ingolstadt -Grandfather had a cow that Annemarie cared for -Built a barn and got a piglet -Insects chewed off the piglet’s ears, so they let it live in the house -Put it back in the barn once it was grown -Someone shot and killed the pig -Grandfather had the meat processed, but she and her family couldn’t eat it (00:32:54) Going to School Pt. 1 -Had only six months of school in Rangsdorf -Lost her hearing due to abscesses in her ears (possibly caused by bomb concussion) -Eventually resolved itself, but never completely regained her hearing (00:36:17) Living in Ingolstadt (Post War) Pt. 2 -Grandfather was self-sufficient and built everything he needed -This included buildings and necessary machines -Step-grandmother was Swiss -People disliked her because she was brutally honest and Swiss -Annemaried liked her step-grandmother because she was good and kind to Annemarie -Had trouble finding an apartment in Ingolstadt due to Germans that fled East Germany -They refused to leave Ingolstadt and returned to East Germany -Mother finally got an apartment in Ingolstadt -Remembers watching motorcycle races -There were a lot of American soldiers in Ingolstadt -Majority of them were good -Some of them were bad and committed rapes -American soldiers gave them food �-Russian soldiers had just thrown food on the ground -Amusement to watch children fight for food -Noticed some economic and social changes happening in Germany -Immediately after the war people had to buy food on credit -Grandfather gave them candy and made his own liquor -The apartment they moved into had been a former soldier’s home (00:48:57) Going to School Pt. 2 -Began going to school normally in Ingolstadt -Forced to speak High German, not Bavarian German -7th grade teacher didn’t like her very much -5th grade teacher liked her and defended her from the 7th / 8th grade teacher -Allowed her to graduate as an 8th grader despite only finishing 7th grade -Went to occupational school -Studied business for one semester, but decided she didn’t like it -Studied engineering, but didn’t complete the course -Got married before she got an engineering job -Thinks the 7th grade teacher may have been a former Nazi officer -Didn’t like Annemarie because she looked Jewish (darker hair, non-Aryan features) Part 2 – 1 hour 52 minutes 34 seconds (00:00:28) Finding a Colt -Right after the war ended they went looking for her paternal grandmother in Rangsdorf -Saw a field of dead soldiers and dead livestock -Found half of a dead soldier -She and her brother wanted their mother to fix him like a doll -Didn’t understand that a human couldn’t be fixed like that -A colt came up to them and started following them -Little brother wanted to keep the horse as a pet -Passed a wooded area and saw six dead German soldiers -Got to the village where the grandmother lived -House was bombed out and abandoned -Mother went inside and found some sugar -Went to an aunt’s apartment and it was bombed out too -Russian soldier came up and demanded the horse -The children refused -Another Russian soldier wanted to make a deal: a can of meat for the horse -Their mother insisted they make the exchange -Mother could read English -Knew it was canned pork from the United States (00:07:08) Finding a German Grenade -In a swamp near Rangsdorf she and some other children found a German hand grenade -Didn’t know what it was and they started playing catch with it -A teenager came up to them and took the grenade -Threw it into the swamp where it exploded (00:08:55) Collecting Apples -She and her brother went to the swamp near Rangsdorf to scavenge for mushrooms -One of Annemarie’s friends came along and told them where they could find apples -Brought them to an abandoned house with an apple orchard �-Filled their bag and began walking home -A Russian soldier wanted an apple, and Annemarie agreed to sell to him -He bought two apples for 20 Deutsche Marks -When she got home her mother told her to never deal with Russian soldiers again (00:12:50) Acting in Ingolstadt -Maternal grandmother and grandfather were divorced, but saw them both in Ingolstadt -Grandmother had been an actress -Got Annemarie involved with acting -She did skits where she played an old woman or another skit where she danced -Started acting when she was 12 years old and did it until she was 17 years old -Performed at beer gardens doing song and dance routines -Remembers dancing with a professional foxtrot dancer -Didn’t know she could keep up with him -Later learned that that dancer had been her grandmother’s dancing partner in the acting days (00:24:23) Meeting Her First Husband -Met her first husband through a gypsy friend -She had been at a move and three boys followed her home, and her friend drove them off -After that incident she was at a dance hall late into the night -Friend’s boyfriend’s friend (an American soldier) offered to drive her home -After that he started pursuing her -The American soldier started visiting her every weekend and writing her letters -Her mother and stepfather grew to like him -Met her first husband in 1957 -At the time she was going to school for engineering and working as a seamstress -Took an engineering test and tried to get a job with Audi -They wanted her, but the quota was filled -Asked her to come back next year, but she got married in that time -One weekend Charlie (the GI) didn’t visit or write her any letters -She worried that he was in trouble -When he showed up she realized she loved him and wanted to marry him (00:35:42) Marriage to First Husband -Made an agreement to live in Germany for a few years then move to the United States -Had a good marriage with Charlie when they lived in Germany -Had a daughter together and they were a happy family (00:37:40) Divorcing First Husband -In 1960 they moved to the United States -He flew back to the US with the Air Force -Annemarie and her daughter flew to New York City then to Pittsburgh -Her in-laws picked her up at Pittsburgh and mother-in-law instantly disliked her -Charlie showed up three days later -She found out that he was going with other women behind Annemarie’s back -Found his wallet and realized he lied about how much money he made -Gave her a meager stipend and spent the rest of his money on mistresses -Found one of his mistress's phone number -Started the divorce process and kicked him out of the house -Called the mistress and said she could have Charlie, because she didn’t want him -Moved into a trailer with her daughter, but couldn’t find a park -Ex mother-in-law had connections and kept Annemarie out of the parks -Found a private park and moved there �-Ex-mother-in-law found out where Annemarie lived -Started sending men to Annemarie to proposition her for sex to harass her -Ex mother-in-law stole Annemarie’s television -Ex mother-in-law started picking up Annemarie’s daughter from the babysitter -Had to go through five babysitters to avoid the woman -Friends advised her to get legal help -Charlie had a powerful lawyer though, stopping Annemarie from taking legal action (00:51:42) Second Marriage -Got tricked into marrying another man -Lived together from 1963 to 1964 -He abused her and her daughter -In spring 1964 she called her parents to get plane tickets to Germany -Returned to Ingolstadt with her daughter -Husband followed them two weeks later -Fortunately they worked opposite shifts in Germany -Met her old friend’s fiance and befriended him -Husband was convinced the fiance was pursuing Annemarie -Her husband tried to slit her throat then started to beat her -He left and she immediately started packing to get out of the house -He came home and punched through the door’s window -She woke up in an ambulance en route to a hospital -Wrote a letter to his boss in the US and got him sent back to the US -He left then sent tickets to her to go to the US -She couldn’t stay in Germany or he would come back -Moved to New York City -Stayed with a cousin for a couple weeks then got a job as a housekeeper for a lawyer Tape starts over at 00:00:00 however the story continues (00:00:04) Living in New York City and Oregon -Worked for the lawyer and cared for his baby girl -She had a terrible diaper rash and Annemarie cured it -Worked for the lawyer for a while until private detectives started coming to the house -Looking for Annemarie on behalf of the second husband -Went out to Oregon to be with an old friend on her wedding day -Friend decided not to get married, but fortunately it got her out of New York City -Did odd jobs and got assistance from welfare (paid for rent and electricity) -Got food from a pantry once a month -Met a couple through a friend -They were good people, had children, and Annemarie’s daughter got along with the children -Couple wanted to move back to Michigan and have Annemarie and her daughter join them -They could live with them (00:08:26) Living in Michigan -Lived with the family from Oregon -Got a job in Grand Rapids, Michigan, as a seamstress -Experienced discrimination for being an immigrant -As a result she befriended other shunned, immigrant workers -Did good work as a seamstress and got a better job �(00:14:33) Marrying Bill Hortman -Met a man named Bill through one of her coworkers -Started dating him, but was worried he would be like her previous husbands -Realized he was a good man -Married Bill Hortman -He taught her how to golf -They had two sons together, and Bill adopted her daughter -Had to get the adoption approval from Charlie -Ex-mother-in-law and her sister showed up demanding that Annemarie come home -To get married to Bill she had to get divorced from her second husband -They had separated, but never gotten a divorce -Told him that she was pregnant and that prompted him to divorce her -He dragged his feet for a while, then began the process -Annemarie told the ex-mother-in-law to leave her alone -Charlie’s mother tried to manipulate her by saying Charlie was in an abusive relationship -Annemarie told her that he could deal with it -Also had to deal with her second husband’s car payments because he couldn’t make them -She had cosigned -Eventually got away from that -Charlie’s mother stopped bothering her after seeing how Annemarie and Bill loved each other -She and Bill fought, but he never held a grudge or followed other women -Bill served in the Marines as an aircraft mechanic in World War II (00:36:57) Relationship with Parents (Adult Life) -Her mother and stepfather started visiting in 1972 -Visited every three or four years -During a visit in 2000 her stepfather had a stroke -Stepfather enjoyed the US and always wanted to stay -Flew stepfather back to Germany for treatment after his stroke for treatment by his doctor -He recovered from the stroke -In 2005 she flew back to Ingolstadt because her stepfather was in bad shape -Her mother took care of him at home -It was wonderful to see her mother in such a loving relationship (00:44:34) Annnemarie’s Biological Father -She never had contact with biological father in her adult life -She has a photo of him from the 1950s -Only keeps it as a part of the family record -Biological father had tried to molest her in Ingolstadt -Grandfather stopped him -Not long after that incident Annemarie’s mother divorced the father -He came back once to try and take her brother -Her brother had lived with him for a few years -He never let him get any gifts from Annemarie or her mother � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HortmanA1944V2 Title A name given to the resource Hortman, Annemarie (Interview outline and video 2), 2016 Description An account of the resource Annemarie Hortman was born in Rangsdorf, Germany, on April 14, 1939. When she was only a year old she moved to Ingolstadt and stayed there until September 1940. At such a young age and that early in the war she remembers getting off a train during an air raid, and going into a community bomb shelter in Ingolstadt. For the rest of the war, Annemarie lived in Rangsdorf. During the last six months of the war she experienced daily bombings due to the Soviet Union’s invasion of Germany and final push toward Berlin. After Germany’s surrender, she and her family stayed in Rangsdorf during part of the Soviet occupation enduring the random and often arbitrary brutality of the Soviet troops. In 1947, Annemarie, her mother, her brother, and sister fled Rangsdorf on foot and sneaked across the East/West German border. They walked to Ingolstadt where she lived until she got married to an American serviceman. Annemarie and her first husband had a child and moved to the United States in 1960. Due to her husband’s infidelity the first marriage failed, and after moving around the country and a second divorce, she met Bill Hortman and settled down with him in Walker, Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hortman, Annemarie Boettner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-09-16 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/53f3427ce03b2760f78d6159713cdc09.m4v 358c7facb71e3867489b09e588533994 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7578daea86a9bff784895a814e912940.m4v bea81b94a4fd3d77f6792f423f56ec74 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/15832424601167c3e4b8d9d442a37b0a.pdf 7068b035c13e1c96833a85fd9a623ac0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Annemarie Hortman World War II – Civilian Part 1 – 1 hour 56 minutes 24 seconds (00:00:18) Early Life - Rangsdorf -Born in Rangsdorf, Germany, on April 14, 1939 -Mother worked before Annemarie’s birth, but stayed home to care for her -Father served in the Wehrmacht in Italy -Uncle served on the Russian Front and was killed-in-action -Father beat her, because he hated her -It was a relief for him to report for service and go away -Forced her to goosestep like a fascist soldier, and he hit her if she didn’t walk right (00:03:34) Early Life – Ingolstadt -Moved to Ingolstadt (near Munich) when she was a year old and mother was pregnant with brother -Traveled there by train -Remembers the train stopping by a ditch, and the passengers being ordered off the train -Heard an air raid siren -Didn’t know what it meant -Stayed in Ingolstadt until September 1940 -Stayed with her mother and grandmother -Put a blanket in front of the windows at night because of air raids -Never remembers her mother giving the Nazi salute -Remembers a siren at night -Told to put on two pairs of underwear and socks, a winter coat, boots, a hat, and gloves -Mother and grandmother had bag full of important documents and family jewelry -Went to the bomb shelter in Ingolstadt -Built into a hill -Went through an iron door, down a flight of concrete steps into a concrete chamber -There were wooden benches along the walls -Noticed there was no other exit, and started to cry -Then she looked up and saw air vents, which comforted her -Came back to her grandmother’s house after the raid and saw it was fine -Brother was born in Ingolstadt in August 1940 (00:18:40) Early Life – Return to Rangsdorf -Moved into another house when they returned to Rangsdorf -Remembers an old man that was their neighbor -All of the children called him “uncle” and loved him -Lived in a duplex house on the ground floor -Remembers a woman that lived there that her mother instructed her to call “aunt” -She and her brother were never allowed to go too far from the house -Remembers she and her brother breaking their mother’s umbrella by using it like a small boat -The house they lived in belonged to a Nazi officer -The woman they called “aunt” was the officer’s wife -Father came home during this time -The Nazi officer came back, and they never saw him or the “aunt” ever again -Her mother was allowed more food because she had two children �-Father brought home canned fruit from Italy, but didn’t give any of it to the family -He brought it to his mistress instead -Lived in several different houses in Rangsdorf -Only moved personal belongings, never furniture -Moved from cottage to cottage (most likely former vacation homes of wealthy Germans) -Always had the feeling that someone lived there, and there were forbidden rooms -Most likely Jewish citizens hiding in the houses -Stayed in a larger house for one night in the last two years of the war -Stayed with an older man -She and her family lived upstairs (00:32:34) The Fall of Germany Pt. 1 -Russians bombed them day and night -Always going up and down the stairs, stopped bothering to change clothes -Remembers a Russian bomb landing near the house -Adult went upstairs and went outside -She got a bloody nose -Possibly from the concussion -All but that house and one other house survived -The rest of the neighborhood was destroyed -Numerous neighbors killed in that raid -Last major action she remembers of the war (00:38:09) Food in the War -Mother usually bought flour, sugar, and other basic food items -Remembers her younger brother expressing his younger -Knows that some neighbors got extra food -Most likely feeding hidden Jewish citizens -Near the end of the war, resorted to eating beets, dandelions, and wild nuts -The old man they lived with found some fresh tomatoes and gave them to Annemarie’s mother (00:41:45) The Fall of Germany Pt. 2 -In 1945, the war came closer to Rangsdorf -Russians were on the offensive, pushing toward Berlin -Dealt with five or six months of near continuous air raids and bombardment -Starvation was more of a problem for her during the war than direct violence (00:43:03) Russian Occupation -Russians came into Rangsdorf and labeled anything they wanted as “contraband” -Confiscated the “contraband” for themselves -Remembers a Russian soldier choking her, her brother, and her mother -Neighbor got her and her brother away from the soldier -The Russian soldier gave up the intimidation and left -She told her mother that she hated the Russians -Mother told her never to hate anyone just because of their country of origin -Stuck with her her whole life -Also told Annemarie to question why the Russians were so violent -Possibly getting revenge for how Germans treated Russians -She and other children hid in a neighbor’s rabbit cages when Russian soldiers came around -Remembers playing near a bomb shelter -Russian soldier ordered her to get away from it -There was a live bomb near the shelter; soldier didn’t want Annemarie to get hurt -Russians took food from the grocery store �-German men tried to get some boxes of food while a Russian plane strafed them -Mother went down to the grocery store and grabbed a box of food while being shot at -Wound up being a box of candy, not real food like she wanted -Russians came the next day and took everything, even Annemarie’s backpack -One of the Russian soldiers broke a candy bar in half -Gave each half to Annemarie and her brother -Russian soldiers routinely searched their house -Cut open the mattress to look for mattress (00:53:38) Living in Post-War Rangsdorf -Moved into an abandoned villa -Father came home briefly after the war, then visited periodically to steal food -Bringing the stolen food to his mistress in Berlin -Got Annemarie’s mother pregnant -Her mother found out the name and address of the mistress -Confronted the mistress, said she was pregnant, and to leave the father alone -Mistress refused -Moved to another place in Ramsdorf around Christmas 1946 -She and her brother gathered pine branches to give to their mother to make her happy -Father tried to take away the pine branches, but her mother intervened -Mother took the pine branches to Berlin, and traded them for a little food as a Christmas gift -While her father was home, Annemarie got in a fight and lost -She came home from the fight, crying, and her father beat her -Told her to go find the boy, fight him again, and win (which she did) Tape stops here, and starts at (00:00:00) for Part 2, however this is not the “Part 2 disc” (00:00:11) Living in Post-War Ingolstadt -Father visited only to steal food -Mother decided to leave Rangsdorf in 1947 -Moved back to Ingolstadt and stayed with her grandmother (mother’s mother) for a while -Ingolstadt had been bombed, but was in better shape than Rangsdorf -Occupied by American soldiers, not Russian soldiers -Collected coal from trains -She and her brother took a train to Berlin for an adventure -Brother decided they should climb across the bridge’s structure to get over the rail yard -Police officer caught her and her brother at the other side of the bridge -Put them on a bridge back to Rangsdorf (00:05:02) Getting to Ingolstadt -Mother decided they needed to leave Rangsdorf to get away from the father -Went to Berlin and got stopped by German officials -Ordered to return to Rangsdorf -Mother, Annemarie’s infant sister, little brother, and herself started walking on the highway -Remembers sleeping under an overpass -Kept walking and got to the East/West German border -Russian soldiers forbade them from going through the checkpoint -An old German man told them to go off the road, under a bridge, into the woods -Stayed quiet and walked through the woods -Waited for the Russian guard to pass, then they continued -Ate a can of cold soup then passed into West Germany �-Stood at the top of a hill and could still see the Russian checkpoint -Picked up the highway and continued walking until they reached a train station in Bavaria -Mother put them on a train and planned on joining them later -Annemarie and her brother got off the train, but their mother wasn’t there -Red Cross officials cared for them until their mother came back to the train station -Finally boarded a train together and got to Ingolstadt (00:19:50) Interactions with Russian Soldiers -Remembers learning a Russian swear word from watching Russian soldiers trying to ride a bike -They heard her repeating it and told her not to say it because it was a bad word -Some of the Russians spoke limited German -One female Russian soldier taught them how to ask for food from Russian soldiers -Taught them a word that would endear them to the Russians -Showed her that not all of the Russian soldiers were bad (00:22:56) Living in Ingolstadt (Post War) Pt. 1 -Grandfather had everything confiscated by the Nazis, for speaking against Hitler -Lost his home, job, and truck -Sent to an insane asylum, then jail, then used for hard labor -In 1947 he built a new house in Ingolstadt -Grandfather had been a baker, but also made money dealing in scrap metal and scrap clothing -Released from custody after the war -Found his confiscated vehicle in the possession of a Nazi officer -Officer’s mother sold it to him -Officer came home and forced the grandfather to buy it again -By 1947 he had rebuilt his life -They stayed with her grandfather in Ingolstadt -Grandfather had a cow that Annemarie cared for -Built a barn and got a piglet -Insects chewed off the piglet’s ears, so they let it live in the house -Put it back in the barn once it was grown -Someone shot and killed the pig -Grandfather had the meat processed, but she and her family couldn’t eat it (00:32:54) Going to School Pt. 1 -Had only six months of school in Rangsdorf -Lost her hearing due to abscesses in her ears (possibly caused by bomb concussion) -Eventually resolved itself, but never completely regained her hearing (00:36:17) Living in Ingolstadt (Post War) Pt. 2 -Grandfather was self-sufficient and built everything he needed -This included buildings and necessary machines -Step-grandmother was Swiss -People disliked her because she was brutally honest and Swiss -Annemaried liked her step-grandmother because she was good and kind to Annemarie -Had trouble finding an apartment in Ingolstadt due to Germans that fled East Germany -They refused to leave Ingolstadt and returned to East Germany -Mother finally got an apartment in Ingolstadt -Remembers watching motorcycle races -There were a lot of American soldiers in Ingolstadt -Majority of them were good -Some of them were bad and committed rapes -American soldiers gave them food �-Russian soldiers had just thrown food on the ground -Amusement to watch children fight for food -Noticed some economic and social changes happening in Germany -Immediately after the war people had to buy food on credit -Grandfather gave them candy and made his own liquor -The apartment they moved into had been a former soldier’s home (00:48:57) Going to School Pt. 2 -Began going to school normally in Ingolstadt -Forced to speak High German, not Bavarian German -7th grade teacher didn’t like her very much -5th grade teacher liked her and defended her from the 7th / 8th grade teacher -Allowed her to graduate as an 8th grader despite only finishing 7th grade -Went to occupational school -Studied business for one semester, but decided she didn’t like it -Studied engineering, but didn’t complete the course -Got married before she got an engineering job -Thinks the 7th grade teacher may have been a former Nazi officer -Didn’t like Annemarie because she looked Jewish (darker hair, non-Aryan features) Part 2 – 1 hour 52 minutes 34 seconds (00:00:28) Finding a Colt -Right after the war ended they went looking for her paternal grandmother in Rangsdorf -Saw a field of dead soldiers and dead livestock -Found half of a dead soldier -She and her brother wanted their mother to fix him like a doll -Didn’t understand that a human couldn’t be fixed like that -A colt came up to them and started following them -Little brother wanted to keep the horse as a pet -Passed a wooded area and saw six dead German soldiers -Got to the village where the grandmother lived -House was bombed out and abandoned -Mother went inside and found some sugar -Went to an aunt’s apartment and it was bombed out too -Russian soldier came up and demanded the horse -The children refused -Another Russian soldier wanted to make a deal: a can of meat for the horse -Their mother insisted they make the exchange -Mother could read English -Knew it was canned pork from the United States (00:07:08) Finding a German Grenade -In a swamp near Rangsdorf she and some other children found a German hand grenade -Didn’t know what it was and they started playing catch with it -A teenager came up to them and took the grenade -Threw it into the swamp where it exploded (00:08:55) Collecting Apples -She and her brother went to the swamp near Rangsdorf to scavenge for mushrooms -One of Annemarie’s friends came along and told them where they could find apples -Brought them to an abandoned house with an apple orchard �-Filled their bag and began walking home -A Russian soldier wanted an apple, and Annemarie agreed to sell to him -He bought two apples for 20 Deutsche Marks -When she got home her mother told her to never deal with Russian soldiers again (00:12:50) Acting in Ingolstadt -Maternal grandmother and grandfather were divorced, but saw them both in Ingolstadt -Grandmother had been an actress -Got Annemarie involved with acting -She did skits where she played an old woman or another skit where she danced -Started acting when she was 12 years old and did it until she was 17 years old -Performed at beer gardens doing song and dance routines -Remembers dancing with a professional foxtrot dancer -Didn’t know she could keep up with him -Later learned that that dancer had been her grandmother’s dancing partner in the acting days (00:24:23) Meeting Her First Husband -Met her first husband through a gypsy friend -She had been at a move and three boys followed her home, and her friend drove them off -After that incident she was at a dance hall late into the night -Friend’s boyfriend’s friend (an American soldier) offered to drive her home -After that he started pursuing her -The American soldier started visiting her every weekend and writing her letters -Her mother and stepfather grew to like him -Met her first husband in 1957 -At the time she was going to school for engineering and working as a seamstress -Took an engineering test and tried to get a job with Audi -They wanted her, but the quota was filled -Asked her to come back next year, but she got married in that time -One weekend Charlie (the GI) didn’t visit or write her any letters -She worried that he was in trouble -When he showed up she realized she loved him and wanted to marry him (00:35:42) Marriage to First Husband -Made an agreement to live in Germany for a few years then move to the United States -Had a good marriage with Charlie when they lived in Germany -Had a daughter together and they were a happy family (00:37:40) Divorcing First Husband -In 1960 they moved to the United States -He flew back to the US with the Air Force -Annemarie and her daughter flew to New York City then to Pittsburgh -Her in-laws picked her up at Pittsburgh and mother-in-law instantly disliked her -Charlie showed up three days later -She found out that he was going with other women behind Annemarie’s back -Found his wallet and realized he lied about how much money he made -Gave her a meager stipend and spent the rest of his money on mistresses -Found one of his mistress's phone number -Started the divorce process and kicked him out of the house -Called the mistress and said she could have Charlie, because she didn’t want him -Moved into a trailer with her daughter, but couldn’t find a park -Ex mother-in-law had connections and kept Annemarie out of the parks -Found a private park and moved there �-Ex-mother-in-law found out where Annemarie lived -Started sending men to Annemarie to proposition her for sex to harass her -Ex mother-in-law stole Annemarie’s television -Ex mother-in-law started picking up Annemarie’s daughter from the babysitter -Had to go through five babysitters to avoid the woman -Friends advised her to get legal help -Charlie had a powerful lawyer though, stopping Annemarie from taking legal action (00:51:42) Second Marriage -Got tricked into marrying another man -Lived together from 1963 to 1964 -He abused her and her daughter -In spring 1964 she called her parents to get plane tickets to Germany -Returned to Ingolstadt with her daughter -Husband followed them two weeks later -Fortunately they worked opposite shifts in Germany -Met her old friend’s fiance and befriended him -Husband was convinced the fiance was pursuing Annemarie -Her husband tried to slit her throat then started to beat her -He left and she immediately started packing to get out of the house -He came home and punched through the door’s window -She woke up in an ambulance en route to a hospital -Wrote a letter to his boss in the US and got him sent back to the US -He left then sent tickets to her to go to the US -She couldn’t stay in Germany or he would come back -Moved to New York City -Stayed with a cousin for a couple weeks then got a job as a housekeeper for a lawyer Tape starts over at 00:00:00 however the story continues (00:00:04) Living in New York City and Oregon -Worked for the lawyer and cared for his baby girl -She had a terrible diaper rash and Annemarie cured it -Worked for the lawyer for a while until private detectives started coming to the house -Looking for Annemarie on behalf of the second husband -Went out to Oregon to be with an old friend on her wedding day -Friend decided not to get married, but fortunately it got her out of New York City -Did odd jobs and got assistance from welfare (paid for rent and electricity) -Got food from a pantry once a month -Met a couple through a friend -They were good people, had children, and Annemarie’s daughter got along with the children -Couple wanted to move back to Michigan and have Annemarie and her daughter join them -They could live with them (00:08:26) Living in Michigan -Lived with the family from Oregon -Got a job in Grand Rapids, Michigan, as a seamstress -Experienced discrimination for being an immigrant -As a result she befriended other shunned, immigrant workers -Did good work as a seamstress and got a better job �(00:14:33) Marrying Bill Hortman -Met a man named Bill through one of her coworkers -Started dating him, but was worried he would be like her previous husbands -Realized he was a good man -Married Bill Hortman -He taught her how to golf -They had two sons together, and Bill adopted her daughter -Had to get the adoption approval from Charlie -Ex-mother-in-law and her sister showed up demanding that Annemarie come home -To get married to Bill she had to get divorced from her second husband -They had separated, but never gotten a divorce -Told him that she was pregnant and that prompted him to divorce her -He dragged his feet for a while, then began the process -Annemarie told the ex-mother-in-law to leave her alone -Charlie’s mother tried to manipulate her by saying Charlie was in an abusive relationship -Annemarie told her that he could deal with it -Also had to deal with her second husband’s car payments because he couldn’t make them -She had cosigned -Eventually got away from that -Charlie’s mother stopped bothering her after seeing how Annemarie and Bill loved each other -She and Bill fought, but he never held a grudge or followed other women -Bill served in the Marines as an aircraft mechanic in World War II (00:36:57) Relationship with Parents (Adult Life) -Her mother and stepfather started visiting in 1972 -Visited every three or four years -During a visit in 2000 her stepfather had a stroke -Stepfather enjoyed the US and always wanted to stay -Flew stepfather back to Germany for treatment after his stroke for treatment by his doctor -He recovered from the stroke -In 2005 she flew back to Ingolstadt because her stepfather was in bad shape -Her mother took care of him at home -It was wonderful to see her mother in such a loving relationship (00:44:34) Annnemarie’s Biological Father -She never had contact with biological father in her adult life -She has a photo of him from the 1950s -Only keeps it as a part of the family record -Biological father had tried to molest her in Ingolstadt -Grandfather stopped him -Not long after that incident Annemarie’s mother divorced the father -He came back once to try and take her brother -Her brother had lived with him for a few years -He never let him get any gifts from Annemarie or her mother � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HortmanA1944V Title A name given to the resource Hortman, Annemarie (Interview outline and video), 2016 Description An account of the resource Annemarie Hortman was born in Rangsdorf, Germany, on April 14, 1939. When she was only a year old she moved to Ingolstadt and stayed there until September 1940. At such a young age and that early in the war she remembers getting off a train during an air raid, and going into a community bomb shelter in Ingolstadt. For the rest of the war, Annemarie lived in Rangsdorf. During the last six months of the war she experienced daily bombings due to the Soviet Union’s invasion of Germany and final push toward Berlin. After Germany’s surrender, she and her family stayed in Rangsdorf during part of the Soviet occupation enduring the random and often arbitrary brutality of the Soviet troops. In 1947, Annemarie, her mother, her brother, and sister fled Rangsdorf on foot and sneaked across the East/West German border. They walked to Ingolstadt where she lived until she got married to an American serviceman. Annemarie and her first husband had a child and moved to the United States in 1960. Due to her husband’s infidelity the first marriage failed, and after moving around the country and a second divorce, she met Bill Hortman and settled down with him in Walker, Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hortman, Annemarie Boettner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-09-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/31f5bde6706b1691f21d606fc6afa0ae.mp4 dd1d696f083a056a738bf0146f8d48f9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c665ae4490434dfeabbe9bacd9f8721a.pdf 62b2f2b7ec42d873dd4e2b852d06ce5e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans Project Interview Melvin E. Hospital (01:35:00) [Note on time coding: Mr. Hospital jumped around quite a bit between topics, and the outline below presents some parts of the interview out of order so as to make more sense to the reader. The time codings preserve the original order of the interview.] Pre-Enlistment (00:05) • Early life (01:10) o Hospital gives background as to how he was adopted. (01:30) Was dropped off at Harmon Keeper Hospital; kept for 2 weeks by an adapted family & then was sent to live in a Catholic orphanage in New Boston, MI. (02:23) o Hospital then moves on to mention the conditions faced by boys and girls in Germany living in orphanages and the type of work they were expected to do. (05:02) o Melvin Hospital, finally mentions, that he was born on Sept. 24th, 1920. (06:03) • Enlistment/Training (42:03) o Why did they join/influences (42:05) •  When he went down to the draft board he received an eligibility form which made him eligible to join. (42:25)  Hospital first joined the Navy, 21 days after the invasion of Poland. (48:44) Doesn’t mention anything about basic training. (48:44) Served for a year in the Navy and then came back and was transferred to the Navy Reserve. (51:56)  Hospital goes on to mention that he served with the Naval Reserve for 4 yrs, 4 months, & 14 days.  When Pearl Harbor was bombed he was coming back from Carolina To L.A. (53:20)  Briefly mentions that his POW camp was liberated by an English general. (55:44) Active Duty (06:35) �o Prison Camp Experience (06:40)  Approximately 3,000 prisoners dug potatoes and defenses for the Germans. After this the Germans loaded them onto trucks. Once they had done so they stuck a pipe coming from the muffler into the truck and then gassed all 3,000 and then burned their bodies. (06:43)  Hospital tells this experience because he was responsible in helping dispose of the bodies. After his experience here, his job was to organize soldier’s shoes which were then sent to neutral countries like Switzerland (08:05)  He relates several experiences where he played tricks on his German captors. (09:17) • In one instance, Hospital received cigarettes which he gave to a German commander but didn’t give him any matches. (11:16) • In another instance he intentionally started a fire and called the Germans to put it out. (12:55)  In one instance, Hospital finds eggs in someone’s lawn and shares them with a German solider. Meanwhile, some German kids come to the fence and start speaking German to Hospital. Eventually he learns the German language. (15:33)  The commander of the German camp calls him into his office and tells him in German that these kids like him and within 10 minutes writes something in Latin which Hospital cannot understand. (17:10) From then on, the Germans use Hospital as a means to find out about America. (18:07)  Eventually, Hospital and the other prisoners go down to an international trade center island in Spain. (19:10)  Hospital eventually ended up back near Frankfurt. While here, he performs a variety of tasks such burial of soldiers and cutting of twigs which the Germans then put together in bundles and use them to float across rivers. In contrast, the Americans used pontoon bridges to get men & equipment across rivers. (21:38)  When American forces crossed rivers they used bailey bridges. The Germans would hide in nearby farmhouses and would open up on the approaching Americans from their machine gun emplacements. (22:20) � Hospital briefly describes a hill called the Berchtesgaden where Hitler stayed. Also, mentions that the Germans told him about the Panzetta. (25:13)  Hospital briefly describes how the Germans would hide and disguise their tanks so that when the Americans walked by all they would see would be unsalvageable tank parts. (27:02)  Hospital mentions Rommel’s failures in Africa and then goes into how Rommel committed suicide since Hitler had fired him. (28:02) Also describes how Rommel’s strategy to repair his tanks during nighttime met with failure when American efforts disrupted this process because of previous intel provided to the Americans by local peoples. (29:45)  Hospital goes on to mention that Rommel used apricot [cyanide] to commit suicide upon Hitler’s request. (30:51)  He briefly mentions German women who trained hundreds of dogs to catch escaped prisoners. To avoid them, a prisoner could open a car door, let them in, & then exit on the car on the other side so as to trap the dog. (31:43)  Hospital briefly describes the German health system. (33:44) Afterwards, he goes on to talk about various cooking techniques incorporated by the Germans to prepare prison food. (36:40) Briefly discusses what food was like in the 22 countries he traveled through. (37:05)  Makes reference to some of the various poisons employed by the Germans and that trains in Germany were exclusively used by German troops. (40:10)   Hospital then makes reference to how Germany’s food production worked. (48:17) Making brief mention of the Monarchy 12-pound chicken whose egg helped to feed the German people. (46:59)  Upon landing in Algiers he was captured by the Germans and sent to a POW camp. (49:44) Doesn’t make mention to how it happened. (49:44)  In reference to his POW experience, Hospital mentions that he was in/out of various prison camps in Russia, Poland, and Germany. (50:05) Spent 4 months in Russia. After that he was sent to one where his job was to burn the dead bodies. (50:13) � Hospital mentions that an English general liberated his prison camp. (55:30) His job at the time of his liberation was to sort different pairs of shoes. (56:17)  Describes that the prison rations usually received by POWs included cabbage, hard-bread, and potatoes. (56:59) o Other Relevant Information (40:55)  Briefly mentions that Hitler got his power from a Volkswagen Union and afterwards invaded Poland. Following this, Hospital mentions that Hitler stole the Lipizzaner Stallions. (40:55)  Briefly describes a variety of assortment of facts regarding American bombing campaigns & ways the Germans employed to protect their weaponry. (59:10) After the Service (1:00:43) • After being discharged, Hospital discusses in great detail his part in helping with the construction of the Mackinac Bridge. (1:01:24) Working as a ribbet heater, he describes what his job entailed. (1:01:37) Worked on the bridge until they closed the project down due to their being no safety groups and the loss of 11-crewmen working. (1:02:56) • Went on to work as a personal secretary for Henry Ford. Worked 3-5 hours a day for him. Further mentions his responsibilities & many encounters with Ford. (1:12:27) Worked a year for Ford and briefly mentions that Ford died of pneumonia. (1:14:29) • Hospital reiterates, first how he was hired to be part of the Mackinac Bridge crew and then his work with Henry Ford. (1:15:10) After working for Ford, he served in a variety of roles first as a ticket holder at a local township park and then later as a firefighter. (1:23:16) • Hospital then briefly discusses how he came to the nursing home. (1:29:41) • Briefly retells his story of escape and near-encounter of being recaptured by a German squad looking for escaped POWs, mainly him. Mentions how he hid under pine needles and foliage to evade detection for several days. (1:35:12) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hospital, Melvin (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hospital, Melvin Description An account of the resource Melvin Hospital enlisted in the US Navy in 1939, and was captured by the Germans during the initial allied naval attack on Algiers in 1942. He spent the rest of the war in different German prison camps in Russia, Poland and Germany before being liberated by British forces. After the war, he helped build the Mackinac bridge. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-29 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HospitalM Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7ac15f7a54127d1052b5a10da21da2ea.mp4 3dcf65c5d550298dc1069aef3884dce4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69d6e5fefc17dbcb22981a893c8e0598.pdf 69d5a7ca8c7c55707791e1173b323ebd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Arthur Hotchkiss Cold War/Vietnam Era (39:26) Entrance into the Military (00:40)        At the age of 17 Arthur had an interest in going into the military. (00:44) He joined the Naval Reserve. A year later he was placed on a 2 year active duty stint. (00:48) Due to his love for the Navy, Arthur enlisted for another 6 years after his 2 year active duty was up. (1:10) While in the Navy Arthur was involved in the Cuban Messily Crises as well as President Kennedy’s flight to Europe. (1:16) After he enlisted, Arthur was sent to 2 weeks of reserve boot camp at Great Lakes Naval Base in Illinois in 1958. (1:39) In 1959 when he was placed on active duty, he was required to take 4 more weeks of training at Great Lakes. In June of 1959 Arthur was placed in active duty aboard the destroyer USS Charles P. Cecil. (2:00) Active service (2:20)   Being a new sailor, Arthur was often questioned as well as put through initiations. (2:25) He was made a 3rd class radio man and then a petty officer. (3:38) Life on the Destroyer (3:14)    Men woke up at 6 AM.(3:16) If not on duty during the day, men were assigned to clean the ship or chip paint. (4:10) The destroyer had approx. 200 crew members. (5:14) The Cuban Missile Crisis (5:50)        Arthur recalls receiving many messages via radio about the buildup of missiles in Cuba. (6:21) In September/October of 1962 the men were told the ship was going near Cuba for training excises. The men knew that this was not entirely true. (7:36) Arthur recalled hearing several low flying planes. These planes carried marines to Guantanamo Bay. (8:35) In mid-October, the ship was to patrol Guantanamo Bay. The ship had lights placed on it at night. (11:24) When moving out of Guantanamo Bay harbor, he witnessed a ship collision between a military vessel and a wooden ship. It was rumored that the wooden ship was taking pictures of Guantanamo Naval base. (12:50) While in the blockade, his ship picked up a Russian freighter. (14:05) Arthur sent a call out to the Russian freighter. After 5 minutes the Russian ship responded. So the destroyer did not fire upon her. (15:23) �Kennedy’s Flight to Europe (17:54)         The ship was then sent to the North Atlantic to put out a homing beacon for when President Kennedy flew to Europe in June 1963. Arthur’s ship was placed near Ireland. The ship was part of a string of destroyers placed across the Atlantic to track President Kennedy’s flight to Europe. (18:40) During Kennedy’s flight, the waves were said to be 100 ft. (19:13) It was not uncommon for the splash from the waves to knock sailors off their feet. (20:33) Pumps on the ship had to be running 24 hours a day on the destroyer so that it would not flood too quickly. (21:20) The ship was ordered to go back to Virginia after Air Force One flew over so that it could be repaired. (22:54) Due to the speed of Arthur’s destroyer, the ship was the first to arrive in the U.S. (24:26) Due to the extent of needed repairs on the ship, Arthur was transferred to the USS Murray. (25:20) Service on the Murray (25:50)    In February of 1964 he was placed in the Mediterranean. (25:52) One of the petty officers on the USS Murray began to drink and was an alcoholic. This man one time played a prank on an officer that involved the man being hit in the rear with a broom. (26:35) While at Guantanamo Bay, one of the men thought they saw a body in the water. It was actually a garbage bag full of water. (31:00) End of Service (33:00)    Arthur was discharged in June of 1967. He later received a job in a radio shop. (33:10) He decided to leave the Navy due to the need to make a change in his life. (33:30) Arthur received a job at the post office in Muskegon where he was born and worked there for 45 years. (34:00) Map (34:09) Pictures (34:52)    Arthur with a high frequency receiver. (35:37) Author transmitting mores code. (36:18) Picture from Life Magazine. (37:06) Medals (37:57)  Arthur received medals of the blockade, good conduct, Cuban Missile Crisis. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hotchkiss, Arthur (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hotchkiss, Arthur Description An account of the resource Arthur Hotchkiss, born in Muskegon, Michigan, served in the U.S. Navy from approx. 1961-1967. During his service, Arthur served in both the Cuban Missile Crisis as well as President Kennedy's flight to Europe. Arthur served as a radio operator on 3 ships while in the Navy, and went on cruises in the Caribbean, Atlantic and Mediterranean. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Huffman, Dave (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-06-06 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HotchkissA1258V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e3060ad3c9817949db93065812beaab.mp4 04bb307c429a360ba2897474fc57673f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fd1f2332f77263d074293ffb1bf63627.pdf c1c8c401bc2679806abe0336d635c008 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Other veterans & civilians Interviewee name: Robert Hotelling Length of Interview: (00:25:26) Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Robert Hotelling Length: 25:26 (00:25) Background Information      Robert was born in Hollywood, Florida on February 19, 1958 He lived with his grandmother until he was 9 years old and then moved to Michigan In high school Robert was in the marching band and played basketball and football Robert graduated from high school in 1976 and then went to a recruiter station in Alpena to learn more about the Marines He entered into an open contract with the Marines in April 1977, signing on for 4 years of active duty (4:25) Marines  Robert was told he could go through boot camp in New York or California and he chose the latter  He went through boot camp in San Diego for 7 weeks and it was very rough  The men had to get up every day at 5:30 a.m. to go running before they had breakfast  The food was “nasty,” with powdered eggs for breakfast  Robert’s platoon had started out with 80 men and about half of them washed out  He had gone through infantry training and became an expert marksman (8:30) Administration School  After boot camp Robert had remained in California for an additional 30 days  He went through administration school to learn how to type  Robert was then assigned to a base in Hawaii; he thought Hawaii was a very nice and enjoyed the change in scenery  Robert was in Hawaii for four years working as a clerk  He had top secret security clearance, working with secret documents and delivering them to superiors (11:30) Average Days �      Usually Robert got up at 7:30 for breakfast and was to work by 8 in the administrative G1 Office They had 1 hour off for lunch at noon and they usually watched soap operas at that time The men would be out of work by 4:30 and then either go to the bar or the beach At one point a group of MPs had searched their barracks for suspected marijuana Everyone had known who the suspect was, but no one would speak up, so they were all reduced in rank Robert was reduced from corporal to lance corporal, but eventually made it back up in rank (15:55) End of Service  Robert received a free ticket to go back to Michigan  He decided to go live at his grandma’s house in Lansing and began looking for work in 1981  Robert found work in truck driving, but eventually moved to Northern Michigan to work on a sawmill  He later worked for Meijer in Grand Rapids, MI as a semi driver  Robert now lives at the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hotelling, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hotelling, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Hotelling was born in Hollywood, Florida on February 19, 1958. He moved to Michigan when he was 9 years old and graduated from high school in 1976. Shortly after graduating Robert signed on for active duty with the Marines for 4 years in 1977. Robert went through boot camp in California and then through administrative school in the same area. After training, Robert was stationed in Hawaii for about four years working as a clerk with top secret security clearance. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-07-21 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HotellingR Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a7fecd84721b8ea304167f3f1fc3a702.m4v f96d129cc573dc29a09b57fc137da723 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a4d50d1daa280483e1e2007f47200f93.pdf 17c99595aa53b89541c1fdfa0c90942b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Milo "Mike" Houghton World War II 58 minutes 56 seconds (00:00:15) Early Life -Born in Sand Lake, Michigan in 1924. -Grew up in Sand Lake as well. -After getting into a fight at school his parents elected to have him put into the military. -He was 17 at the time. -Restricted him to serving for four years. -Entered the service at the end of December 1941. -Father and mother were farmers. -Father owned their farm. -Raised turkeys and chicken and grew crops. (00:05:00) -Had some basic machinery. -Attended grade and high school until 17. -For the most part didn’t follow news from the War. -Decided to enlist to the Navy. -A neighbor was enlisting as well. Pearl Harbor and Brisbane Australia with the USS Sperry -Sent to Great Lakes, Illinois for basic training. -Training lasted about a week. (00:10:00) -Took a train from Illinois to San Diego, California. -Prepared to board the USS Sperry. -The ship was a submarine tender. -Worked as a crane operator on the USS Sperry. -Duration of stay in San Diego was less than a week before preparation was completed. -The Sperry was newly completed and launched. -He was never seasick at all. -The trip to Pearl Harbor took about a week. -Once at Pearl Harbor he observed the docked ships were giving off smoke. (00:15:00) -Saw his brother in Pearl Harbor when they arrived. -His brother was in the military aboard the USS Virginia in Pearl Harbor. -The attack on Pearl Harbor caused him to be thrown from the ship into the water. -He survived but was badly burned. -Their stay in Pearl Harbor didn’t last long. -The USS Sperry next headed to Australia. -Docked in Brisbane harbor. -Local people were very welcoming. �-No stops along the way. -The ship traveled by itself without a convoy. (00:20:00) -At that time the submarine torpedoes were powered by alcohol. -USS Fulton was their sister ship, across the port. -Often spoke to the submarine crewmen. -A particular Captain he got to know well. -He was well respected for the amount of Japanese submarines they would destroy. (00:25:00) -Were not allowed to have cameras to secure information about submarine technology. -Their stay in Brisbane lasted for quite a while. -During that time they were not attacked by Japanese aircraft. -Did not have access to news or communication from the US. -Did not stop at Pearl Harbor on the return trip. -Directly to San Diego. -After crossing the International Date Line, the veteran crew hazed the newer crew members. -Upon returning to the US received two weeks of leave to go home. South Pacific and Okinawa with the USS Kittson (00:30:00) -Took a train to Michigan with another military friend. -Upon returning to San Diego he was assigned to the USS Kittson. -He was assigned to the job of transporting the landing crafts. -USS Kittson was new at the time. -Group of Army soldiers would climb rope nets down to the boat. -Training for the Higgins boats took place in San Diego. -The boats took quite a bit of muscle power to row. -Especially weighed down with crew and materials. -He embarks on the USS Kittson. -The year is still 1944. (00:35:00) -Ship’s destination is for the South Pacific and Okinawa. -Can’t recall whether the voyage was solo or part of a convoy. -At Okinawa the Kittson picked up members of the US Army. -The first day present in Okinawa was a “beautiful day”. -When dusk came about the Japanese aircraft attacked. -His role was rowing the boats with men to and from the ships. -During this span of three weeks all he had to eat was rice. (00:40:00) -At Midway he recalls the sight of the Albatrosses near the runway. -Required him to chase them away from the danger of the runway area. -The type of boat he was manning was not retrieved to the carrier at night. -His boat stayed in the water the entire three week period. -Kamikaze pilots would fly so low that the pilots were recognizable. -During his time ferrying Army crew they did receive water from the ship or on land. (00:45:00) �-After Okinawa the Kittson was prepared and situated to be part of the invasion of Japan. -Since the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the War it wasn’t necessary. Post War Life -After the War ended the military very much wanted him to re-enlist. -He had no interest in returning. -He was honorably discharged and given a Ruptured Duck lapel pin. -He was not given transportation home. -Had to hitchhike on ships back to the US. (00:50:00) -In San Diego he “hitchhiked” on a train, riding on the outside. -After his experiences in Okinawa he had contracted Jungle Rot. -After a Dr. treatment it soon cleared up. -After returning home he attempted to return to farm work. -Crops didn’t turn out as expected. (00:55:00) -Instead he became a carpenter. -Mostly building of small houses. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HoughtonM1900V Title A name given to the resource Houghton, Milo (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-18 Description An account of the resource Milo "Mike" Houghton was born in Sand Lake, Michigan in 1924. At the age of 17 he enlisted in the Navy in December of 1941. At Great Lakes Illinois he received his brief basic training. He was bound for the USS Sperry departing out of San Diego, California where they headed to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. The attack on Pearl Harbor had taken place so recently that ships were still smoking. There he was relieved to encounter his brother who was injured in the attack, but survived. Next the Sperry took him to Brisbane, Australia where they remained for some time. Eventually the Sperry returned to San Diego and Houghton would next be departing on the USS Kittson. In 1944 the Kittson traveled the South Pacific and on then to Okinawa. It was at the battle of Okinawa in 1945 where Houghton worked to ferry members of the Army to and from the ships. Although on board the Kittson and prepared to invade Japan, the end of the War made this unnecessary and he was soon honorably discharged thereafter. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Houghton, Milo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/466098295a92204ff01d6617cef00c2e.mp4 0726ba93a6b0b9c8780c53443053fe5b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97620d8dd38248df8e8655d0b1d1f4e9.pdf 6c4482f8515e4050608d929de3d1a76a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Joseph Hovinga World War II 58 minutes (00:00:10) Early Life -Born on January 3, 1923 in Dorr, Michigan -His father worked at Nash-Kelvinator in Grand Rapids, Michigan which made refrigerators -His mother was a housewife -They moved to Grand Rapids so that his father could walk to work -His father was able to have regular work throughout the Great Depression -There were eight children in the family, but two of them died -He attended South High School in Grand Rapids, but eventually left -Worked at Nash-Kelvinator with his father (00:03:16) Start of the War & Awareness of It -Remembers hearing about the bombing of Pearl Harbor on the radio -Prior to Pearl Harbor he hadn’t paid attention to the war in Europe and Asia -This meant that when Pearl Harbor happened it was a shock (00:04:07) Enlisting -Initially he didn’t plan on enlisting -His friends started to enlist or get drafted which motivated him to enlist in the Army -He went to Kalamazoo, Michigan to enlist and get sworn into the Army -Chose heavy weapons to be his specialization -Enlisted in 1942 (00:05:40) Training -Sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for training with heavy weapons -If they weren’t training with the artillery guns they would be marching -During training at Fort Sill he and another recruit went into town -The other recruit got drunk and a fight ensued -After Fort Sill he was sent to Fort Ord, California -Travelled from Fort Sill to Fort Ord by way of train -Remembers on the way they passed by a group of girls -He threw his military address out the window hoping that one would write -Wound up receiving a letter from one of those girls -At Fort Ord he trained with the 81mm mortar -He also received training at Fort Indiantown-Gap, Pennsylvania with the 105mm howitzer -Stayed at Fort Ord into 1943 -They were allowed to go off the base while at Fort Ord -There was a nearby town that could be reached by bus, but it wasn’t very large -He was paid $21 per month while in training -Fort Ord was located in farm country -While at Fort Ord they would routinely go out to the firing line to practice with mortars (00:14:52) Aleutian Islands Campaign -From Fort Ord he was sent to Hawaii �-From Hawaii boarded a troopship and sailed to the Aleutian Islands in Alaska -En route they were given winter clothing to prepare for the cold temperatures -He took part in the fighting on Attu Island in May 1943 -Landed on Attu Island by using a landing craft -They were told there wouldn’t be much of a Japanese presence on the island -When they arrived they found this to be false -The Japanese would come down out of the mountains using the low hanging clouds for cover -Usually came down in small groups to attack them -He only had his rifle at this point because they didn’t have mortars yet -He was part of H Company 32nd Infantry Regiment 7th Infantry Division -Specifically attached to a mortar unit, but fighting as a rifleman at this point -Stayed on Attu for about one month -Remembers that it was daylight all the time which made sleep difficult -He saw a lot of dead Japanese soldiers on Attu -The surviving Japanese were evacuated by a submarine -He drove a truck around to collect the dead Japanese to be buried in a mass grave -Attu Island was his first exposure to combat -H Company had not taken any casualties though -After the island was secured they took over Japanese construction equipment and built roads (00:20:44) Returning to Hawaii -After the Aleutian Islands they returned to Hawaii for further training -Stationed at temporary barracks located next to Schofield Barracks, Hawaii -Hawaii was a good place to be -Remembers seeing a lot of American planes flying overhead going into the Pacific Theatre -He was able to visit Honolulu a few times -Remembers that some of the men would go into town and drink and cause trouble -He was not one of those men though -Generally returned to Hawaii between campaigns for further training -Only exception was when they went to Okinawa from the Philippines -The main focus of their training was to prepare for amphibious assaults -This included learning how to swim and how to climb down into a landing craft (00:24:57) Marshall Islands Campaign -On February 1, 1944 his unit took part in the invasion of Kwajalein, Marshall Islands -It was a very easy battle -There was hardly any enemy resistance on the island -Able to take it very quickly -The entire battle only lasted five days -They only notable enemy contact he remembers was a Japanese sniper -H Company didn’t take many casualties during this battle either -At night they would set up trip flares -If a Japanese soldier tripped one it illuminated the area and they could shoot him -After the island had been secured they spent most of their time training and relaxing -They returned to Hawaii afterwards and were given more training to prepare for further attacks (00:28:04) The Philippines -After the Marshall Islands they were sent to take part in the liberation of the Philippines -This would have been in October 1944 �-By the time he arrived the fighting had already begun -On the Philippines he saw the brutality the Japanese inflicted against the Filipinos -Landed on the island of Leyte -H Company’s duty was to act as a support unit if the units on the frontline needed help -Gave him a chance to be in the rear and eat hot food as opposed to rations -On the Philippines they were given a malaria vaccination -Afterwards told to go exercise to allow the medicine to circulate better and faster -At night there was always the threat of Japanese soldiers breaking through their perimeter -He remembers one night four or five enemy soldiers got up to the perimeter -He had to make sure he didn’t shoot his own men in the process -On the Philippines mortars were used more often -First they would get coordinates and fire smoke rounds to cover the infantry -Next they would fire regular mortar rounds at the coordinates given -Sometimes it was sustained fire, other times it was only a few rounds -Didn’t run the risk of the mortar tube overheating and melting -The Philippines were pretty bad for a while -They wound up being tasked with pursuing the Japanese inland -Had to travel on foot -Each mortar crew had four men (on average) -He fought alongside the same group of men throughout the war (00:37:44) The Battle of Okinawa -After the Philippines the 32nd Infantry Regiment was sent to Okinawa on April 1, 1945 -They arrived after the invasion had commenced -Japanese resistance was stiff and they had retreated into the caves on the island -First they tried to convince them to leave the caves and surrender -They wouldn’t give up, so they had to burn them out with flamethrowers -His unit was tasked with mop up operations -Gathering prisoners of war and killing any Japanese soldiers that chose to fight -On Okinawa they would encounter groups of civilians that were surrendering to U.S. troops -Had to treat them with caution and suspicion because they might be combatants too -Remembers finding a coral cave that was occupied by a Japanese soldier -All he had on him was a sword and he finally surrendered after some coaxing -Joe confiscated the sword and was able to take it home with him -He found a Japanese doctor that spoke fluent English -He had studied in America and returned to Japan to visit his family -When the war began he was conscripted into the Imperial Army against his will -He surrendered immediately -He was on Okinawa when the news came that Japan had surrendered (00:42:40) End of the War & Coming Home -He was one of the first men to go home because he had enough “points” -Points were awarded based on rank, length of service, and action seen -As an enlisted man he needed eighty five points to be discharged -By June 1945 the fighting on Okinawa was over -Spent most of their time building roads and cleaning up the island -He left Okinawa with a few other men -The rest of the 32nd was sent to Korea to oversee the surrender of Japanese forces there �-He remembers watching a movie on Okinawa when the Japanese surrender was announced -Everyone cheered and fired their guns into the air because the war was finally over -He was placed on a troopship and went directly to San Francisco then to Fort Ord, California -From California he was sent to Camp McCoy, Wisconsin to be discharged -When he arrived he was allowed to go home because his paperwork wasn’t ready -After a week he returned to McCoy and he was discharged from the Army (00:46:10) Life after the War -He returned to Grand Rapids, Michigan -When he got back to Grand Rapids he had a confrontation with a woman on a bus -She had assumed that he hadn’t served and was upset because her son was still overseas -He clarified that he had already served for three years and she was kicked off -He took some time off from work and was in Michigan’s “52-20 Club” -Given $20 a week for fifty two weeks as part of the GI Bill -He met his wife in Grand Rapids when he went to a roller skating rink -He returned to work for Nash-Kelvinator for a while -After that he got a job working for A&P driving semi-trucks (00:50:40) Getting Wounded -When he was on Okinawa he was wounded and received a Purple Heart -He had been standing next to another man talking when a mortar round landed on them -The one man was killed and he (Joe) was wounded and evacuated -He was taken to a Landing Ship, Tank that was being used as a hospital ship -He had been hit in the head by a piece of shrapnel that had travelled along his scalp -He stayed on the ship for a month and then returned to Okinawa (00:52:53) Reflections on Service -Feels that his service made him more intelligent -You had to learn things fast when you were in the Army -Survival depended on being able to pick things up quickly and apply them (00:54:06) Interacting with Japanese Civilians -When he was on Okinawa he met a little Japanese boy that was starving -Joe decided that he would take care of him and would get extra food to share with him -He was always very grateful -Remembers that there were a lot of orphans on Okinawa -On Okinawa there was a Japanese woman that had a gaping leg wound with maggots in it -Joe decided to treat the wound by putting a powder in the wound that killed the maggots -Afterwards he bandaged up her leg -He doesn’t know whatever happened to her � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HovingaJ1733V Title A name given to the resource Hovinga, Joseph (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 Description An account of the resource Joseph Hovinga was born in 1923 in Dorr, Michigan. He grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan and enlisted in the Army in 1942. He trained at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, and Fort Ord, California. He was sent to Hawaii and was assigned to H Company 32nd Infantry Regiment 7th Infantry Division. He saw action on Attu Island in the Aleutian Islands Campaign, on Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands Campaign, on Leyte in the Philippines, and on Okinawa. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hovinga, Joseph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dabe84866104b53750de88665a93477a.pdf 7e0539b1761cbb0fac350b814261e209 PDF Text Text ���� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-83161 Title A name given to the resource D.S. Howard to father Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1853-05-29 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Howard, D. S. Subject The topic of the resource Natural resources Michigan Wisconsin Upper Peninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Letter from laborer and carpenter working in Michigan's Upper Peninsula to his father. He describes the Carp River area, its natural resources in comparison to Wisconsin, his daily routine, and his prospects for work. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db198d3a6c49afb408100f9249746811.pdf 259726aba4427e8a2200892ec98bcb27 PDF Text Text ����� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW16500 Title A name given to the resource Mark Howard to his wife Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1860-11-23 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Howard, Mark, 1817-1887 Subject The topic of the resource Howard, Mark, 1817-1887 Hamlin, Hannibal, 1809-1891 Welles, Gideon, 1802-1878 Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865 Lincoln, Mary Todd, 1818-1882 Trumbull, Lyman, 1813-1896 Judd, Norman B. (Norman Buel), 1815-1878 Howard, Angelina Lee United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Chicago (Ill.) Hartford (Conn.) Description An account of the resource Letter by Mark Howard, insurance company president and Lincoln political appointee, describing his meeting in Chicago with Abraham Lincoln and other prominent Republicans shortly after Lincoln's election in 1860. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/20155d6c3f6b76a9f46c8c1e0f054923.pdf 217430b7475451ac9ab062332956d24c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Robert Howard Vietnam War 15 minutes 33 seconds (00:00:05) -Born on August 3rd, 1942. -Enlisted in the Army from 1962-1965. -Served in Vietnam. -Highest rank achieved was sergeant first class. -Born in Mt. Pleasant, Michigan. -At that time the economy was doing well, life was comfortable living there. -Wasn’t enthusiastic about college at Central Michigan University. -Became enthralled with ROTC and decided to join the military. -Enlisted for airborne operations. -Father died while he was in basic training. -Missed candidate school entry, waited 4/5 months to go to the next class. -Assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. -Served in the 187th Airborne Regiment. -Went through jump school to be a paratrooper, and ranger school. -Went to further training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. -Trained for a field artillery data computer. -Sent to Vietnam with the military assistance crew, specifically in order to make maps. -Attached to a Special Forces team. -They were located at the Annam plateau in Vietnam. -Surveyed the drop zone. -Returned to 82nd Airborne division. -Became a Staff Sergeant at a liaison section directing artillery fire. -The computer he was trained to use allowed them to make maps of south east Asia. -At that time there were no usable maps. (05:00) -Granted the capability to map without use of chains and benchmarks. -After returning to the 82nd Airborne division, they were activated to go to the Dominican Republic. -Took a liaison section, including naval artillery fire directed by Marines, Air Force, and his own section of men with seven men and four vehicles. -Politicians insisted they not fire on buildings in Dominican Republic due to the fact that Christopher Columbus landed there and there was historic value. -Ran simulations four times a day in case they needed to be called to action. -One of his crewman was killed, and 28 others. -Part of their purpose was also humanitarian. -Distributed U.N. rice. -Did medical calls, vaccinations, cleaned up remains -Following this he was discharged from the Army. �-Civilian life; everyone was three years ahead in life and felt like he needed to catch up. -Took work in Lansing where he met his wife. -Began having children and starting a family. -Most memorable moments in service: selected for Trooper of the Year. -Also Trainee of the Year in basic training. -Received the American Freedom Medal. (10:00) -Advice to those considering military: join the best. Trusted and highly skilled. -82nd Airborne Division has incredible respect and close bonds. -Does not regret choosing to join the military. -Cites inspiration from JFK’s inaugural address (“Ask not…”). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HowardR1833V Title A name given to the resource Howard, Robert E (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-29 Description An account of the resource Robert Howard was born in 1942 in Mt. Pleasant, Michigan. His enlistment with the Army lasted from 1962 to 1965 while he was part of the Vietnam War. Robert was assigned to the 82nd airborne division in Fort Bragg, North Carolina where he undertook paratrooper training and ranger school. At Fort Sill, Oklahoma he would continue training in order to use a field artillery data computer. In Vietnam he was attached to a Special Forces team with the purpose to make maps where none yet existed. In the Dominican Republic he directed artillery fire as well as helped to distribute humanitarian aid. After his time there he was discharged from the Army. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Howard, Robert E. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Howard, Adam (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. ArmyOral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/47fd51af2fdf8a44d9a575f4c8c2d586.mp4 9547efe3308bdbe197271dc642226563 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97c31c5b38bbdcea82a9e2eb670481f5.pdf 37a0a61ee2472fc0a124b9808263c11f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Ron Howell (1:35:54) Background Information (00:15) • • • • • • Born in Flint, Michigan on May 15th 1948. (00:18) His father worked for AT&T. His job required them to move to Indianapolis where Ron registered for the draft and graduated high school. (00:28) His family moved back to Detroit and Ron got a job as a cable splicer. His frustrations with life lead him to join the Marines. (1:24) Ron enlisted in 1966. (2:21) Ron was told by a man he worked with who was in the marines that Ron’s choice was fine but he would break his legs unless he signed up for only a 2 year stint. (3:24) In August of 1967 Ron sighed papers and took a physical. He did not get sent to Fort Wayne in December of 1967. (4:42) Basic Training (5:15) • • • • • • • • • • When he arrived at the San Diego training center in a bus, the men were shocked by a drill sergeant who came on and yelled at them. As they were ordered out of the bus and told to stand at attention, those who did not do so were punched. (5:39) Shaving of the head, issuing of cloths, shots, and the establishment of unity were all done with in the first couple of weeks. (6:42) Boot camp conditioned the men to military discipline. If a soldier said “can’t” they were sent to motivation school. This consisted of moving a pile of sand by buckets. (7:20) Whenever someone in the group messed up, the meanest member of the platoon was beaten by the drill sergeant. (8:35) Ron had played sports through high school so the physical training was not too difficult. The weapons’ training was more difficult. (9:21) There were some people who struggled understanding orders or the intensity needed to show that they were giving 110%.(11:36) The men who enlisted were separated initially form those who were drafted. (12:44) One drill instructor had been to Vietnam already. (13:06) Boot camp lasted 12-16 weeks with 4 weeks at Pendleton rifle range. (15:12) Ron was very rebellious as a child and joining the military was defiant and not a surprise to his parents. (16:13) Radio School (17:50) • • • • Ron was trained on larger radios to start then smaller back pack ones. (18:00) Radio school lasted 4 weeks. (18:05) He was given leave before being sent to Vietnam. (18:58) During his 30 day leave Ron worked downtown during a strike in Detroit, Michigan. (19:45) Arrival in Vietnam (20:33) �• • • • • • • Ron landed in Da Nang Vietnam. The heat was very overbearing. Ron was assigned to the 27th Marines. (20:35) He arrived in Vietnam in July of 1968. (21:05) Ron sat at a radio and received radios with a team, would decode it, and then would give them to his officer. (22:15) Ron didn’t stay at HQ for very long because he was frustrated with not serving out in the bush. (23:09) The base at Quang Tri was a massive bunker complex with lager tents housing 8-10 people. (23:46) Ron received a report that VC were moving up a river but it was difficult to get the message to the officers that needed it in a timely matter. (25:02) Ron asked to be transferred to a field unit. He was assigned to Company C of the 3rd Shore Party. A Shore party where he worked as the field radio operator assigned to a unit and called in helicopter support. (26:51) Service in the 3rd Shore Party (29:40) • • • • • • • • • • • • • Ron was taken to his assigned company by truck. (29:46) He was assigned to an artillery unit at one point. At the base he was stationed in the bunkers the men used were constructed by the French. (31:00) Though he was there to protect the people from communism when he arrived, at the end he didn’t trust any civilian in Vietnam. (32:24) Marines had liquor crossed out on their ration card and could not obtain it. (33:35) Ron was given three days leave to register for a college entry exam in Da Nang. (34:24) While Ron was staying in Da Nang during his three days later he met a man who was part of the Phoenix Team. (36:01) Ron felt like the men in his unit looked out for him and others. (38:26) When shooting opened up while Ron was in the field he was able to react using his training. His first big action was with Alpha Company in the DMZ. The unit was constantly mortared. After taking a hill, the unit was engaged. (40:16) He recalls the Navy Corpsman of the unit running in to the fire to take care of the unit. Ron had a high respect for these men. (42:17) Ron had to call in helicopters to evacuate casualties. (43:40) Ron was able to call in airstrikes or gun strikes but he did not have the training to properly give coordinates. (46:10) Ron often had problems calling in helicopters unless the area was cleared. There was a particular concern about having aircraft shot down in the DMZ. (48:00) Men spent a week in the read before being sent back out to the bush. During the monsoon seasons, men often spent more time in the rear. (50:12) Life in Vietnam (51:30) • • Ron was never with the same platoon twice. (51:35) There was about 6-8 people that Ran was able to get close with and even wrote a little bit after he was out of the service. (52:18) �• • • • • • • • • • • • • Ron was very aware of the anti war movement. He was a big fan of Motown and made friends with some black soldiers. They were later unable to talk to Ron due to the Black Power movement. (54:06) Marijuana was a problem in the bush. In fact, men would wear gas masks with marijuana in it while in the bush. (56:20) There was a general understanding that while on an operation the men were not to spoke. (57:55) There was great fear for being captured. (59:25) The people in Da Nang often had very exotic dress. (1:00:22) Ron was sent to China beach on a three day R&R. much of this time was spent drinking. (1:01:19) Ron waited to use his R&R until the end of his service. When he heard that he had a chance to go home in mid 1969, he tried to go to Hong Kong. However, if he took his R&R he would have been sent home later than original so he decided to give it up all together. (1:02:12) Ron was on hill 950 which served as a large communications area. Ron was assigned to a company protecting the hill. (1:04:24) Ron did receive some mortar fragment in his left leg. It did not strike his bone but was immobilized. (1:05:54) The men who flew the helicopters often varied in characters. Somewhere very professional and businesslike when delivering supplies. Others were wilder when coming into an area they knew was hot. (1:06:55) Ron did not encounter helicopters getting shot down too often. (1:08:49) Ron had some experiences that still trouble him psychologically. (1:09:49) After returning home, Ron found that he received his deferment two weeks after he enlisted. (1:10:30) Voyage Home (1:11:20) • • • • • • The Marines stopped at Fort Hanson Okinawa on the way back to the U.S. (1:11:20) One man tried to go AWOL on Okinawa. He was recovered 3 days later. (1:12:40) Ron was then flown from Okinawa to Treasure Island in San Francisco Bay to be processed. (1:14:22) Once arriving on California, Ron immediately changed into civilian clothes. (1:15:11) Ron was required to serve 5 more years in the reserve after being discharged. (1:15:45) Ron arrived back home to Michigan in August of 1969. (1:16:45) Life after Service (1:17:45) • • • • He did claim his cable splicer job back until the January of 1970 when Ron attended Northern Michigan University. (1:17:50) He received a bachelor of science with heavy emphasis on administration. (1:19:22) The Dean of Students addressed the men directly at Northern Michigan University and said no female was to be in the dorms past 10. A Vietnam veteran spoke up against this. They did not like being told what to do. (1:19:40) Ron spoke out publicly against the war on one occasion. Another Vietnam Veteran who heard this detested Ron as a result. (1:21:15) �• • • • • Ron did have some trouble readjusting. Joining school helped with his ability to adjust to normal life. (1:22:30) To this day when it is hot and there is a warm rain at night, Ron has a heightened sense of alertness. (1:24:04) His is thankful for his wife for staying with him and for staying busy and driven in order to distract himself from his troubles. (1:25:00) Ron still has difficulty seeing small children, particularly if they are oriental. (1:26:41) He feels sympathy for the men who go to the Middle East and experience a very similar situation as to what Ron experienced in Vietnam. (1:30:08) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Howell, Ron (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Howell, Ron Description An account of the resource Ron Howell, born in Flint, Michigan in 1948 He enlisted in the Marine Corps and served from 1967 to 1969. Trained at San Diego as a radio operator, he was sent to Vietnam in June, 1968 and assigned to a headquarters unit in Da Nang. He later requested duty in the field, and became a radio operator with the 3rd Shore Party near the DMZ, and went out with different combat units to call in helicopter support. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Marine Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-09-13 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HowellR1439V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9bbc20d51110550c51ffe28dc43c8711.jpg 5bbb89e59739ca237f8cb56e200c8dae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. PR6003.U13 W58 1927 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0184 Title A name given to the resource Witch Wood Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hoyle (Designer) Description An account of the resource Binding of Witch Wood, by John Buchan, published by Houghton Mifflin Co., 1927. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1927 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a9fb9cc6fa2f1eee1c1212ffb4f410b6.pdf 43b2dd654081f5694e7b75e7192ce841 PDF Text Text [M]O~@ @(ill~ W@ G{]@y) D J , pJ ____ ffiltiill1 O~ ffiPl CJ tJlll [3[fl3}[[i/}Cim]jN&o[f[ffel1Jmgf}~ THIS EVENT IS FOR SORORITY WOMEN, WOMEN & GENDER STUDIES STUDENTS, FEMINISTS, AND ANYONE WHO FEELS A GROUP HAS BEEN MISREPRESENTED BY tABELS. SNACKS AND REFRESHMENTS WILl BE PROVIDED. BRING AN OPEN MIND AND SOMETHING TO WRITE WITH. CONTACT BRITTANI HUDSON FOR MORE INFORMATION - HUDSON.BRITTANl@GMAIL.COM � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_WGS_2012_Claiming-Our-Names-Workshop.pdf Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hudson, Brittani Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-01 Title A name given to the resource Claiming Our Names Workshop: How Labels Help and Hurt Us Description An account of the resource Poster of the event, as well as the location, time, date and synopsis of the event. Subject The topic of the resource College students Bias-free language Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies Department Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2492bb380411c7367d45cde80fd4c6c2.mp4 815f5401c92cb289414b7c74f5ec4ef2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c250a9d44c970ab12697958944a2b7f.pdf 8aa765b134644954807a83f4df1a7192 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW GABE HUDSON Born: April 3, 1942 St. Joseph County, Michigan Resides: Grand Rapids, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 27, 2012 Interviewer: Gabe, can we start by you giving us a little bit of background on yourself? Where and when were you born? I was born down in St. Joseph County, down in a little town called Sturgis, in 1942, April 3rd 1942. Interviewer: What was your family doing at that time? Well, my father was working in the war machine for Kirsch drapery hardware, and they were making war parts, airplane parts and the like, and he was a tool and die maker. My mother was a homemaker—I had six brothers, no, one brother and four sisters, so there were six of us. When I was six we moved to a farm in Michigan, and we were there until I was fifteen. Great, great, growing up on a farm, and I wish everybody had the opportunities I had when I was growing up because we had eighty-three acres that was ours, and then we had the run of several sections, my brother and I. 1:20 We could hunt, and we worked the land, and milked cows, and did all those good things, it was just a great time growing up. We moved back into Sturgis in 1956, and I graduated from high school in 1960. I went to Western Michigan, went up there, and I was going to become a businessman since farmers were out of the question now. I was going to be a businessman, and of course the Vietnam War was just kind of kicking up in 1960, and one thing led to another. I met a lovely lady there in 1962, and her and I were married in 1 �1965, so that makes it forty-five years this year. 2:06 In November of 1965 I should have graduated already, but my majors the first couple of years were kind of “wine, women, and song”. By the time I got married I said, “I’ve got to crack down and go to work, and get a degree”. I was going to school full time and working full time, and I came home one day and my wife was working, she had completed her degree requirements, but was working an internship at Borgess Hospital. I walked in the door, and she said, “You have a funny letter here from a draft board in St. Joseph County. We don’t live in St. Joseph County do we?” I said, “no, but that’s where I registered for the draft at”. I opened it up and it said, “congratulations Mr. Hudson”, so what are we going to do? We talked it over and--all right, we're going to get drafted, we’ll go for two years, come back, and pick-up our lives and go. 3:07 So, I went to basic training-Interviewer: Let’s back up here a little bit from all of that. Now how was it, did you have a deferment while you were in school, or how did that work? I was—you’re—that’s an excellent question. I had a deferment, I was 2F or F2, 2F it was, I think, deferment, and that deferment expired at four years. But, with four years plus, I got married at the time they weren’t taking married people. So, I told my wife we didn’t have to worry about the draft, so when I got the letter I called St. Joseph County and said, “Hey, what’s going on? I’m a married guy and I’m a student, and I’ve been a student for a long time, I don’t want to be a soldier, and I’m married”. They said, “we don’t care, were out of single guys, and St. Joseph County is just a small little county, and your number’s up, good luck”. 4:07 Interviewer: That was it for you, all right That’s how I ended up. 2 �Interviewer: Now, were you drafted into the Army? Well, the Army, yes sir, and the funny thing about that is that in 1968 I was in the middle of Camp Eagle, I was part of the 1st Airborne Division, and I got a letter from our draft board in Centerville, Michigan that said, “If you do not report your status, you will be immediately drafted in the United States Army”, so the government was just as screwed up then as it is now. Interviewer: So, let’s go back to 1965, the end of the year you get your draft notice, and then where do you report for basic training? Well, I went to a lovely place called Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. Interviewer: How would you describe or characterize that place? Well, they called it “little Korea”, but there’s other ways of describing that we probably shouldn’t want to talk about on tape here for somebody to listen to. 5:05 But, basic training was relatively easy, I wasn’t in really bad shape, and got in and got kind of lucky on a couple of occasions. I was the first sergeants driver and had a great basic training. We finished basic training—well, now when I got into basic, I had to do a bunch of testing and all this other stuff. Well, the master sergeant, Fackus was his name, I’ll never forget him, I’m still looking for him, he called us in this little room, five or six of us, and said, “all you people, you’re all college kids, you’ve all scored very, very highly, and you can do anything you want to do in the United States Army”. 6:00 I thought, “that’s kind of neat”, but I said, “sergeant, you get two years, and we’re all going home”, “yeah, yeah, yeah”, and they all applaud. He said, “that’s ok guys, you’re all going to be “eleven bushes”, which is combat infantry, and most of you will be dead in six months”. I said, “Can we talk?”, and he said, “sure we can talk”. I started going through this book, and 3 �said, “this is a kind of interesting thing here, what’s this photo interpreter's job?” He said, “man, that’s a great job, you wear a suit and go to foreign lands, and they give you a camera and you take pictures”. That lying bastard, I said, “ man, I’d like to do that, just like James Bond, you know, I want to be like James Bond, you know”. He said, “sign the papers”, so I signed the papers, and I became a photo interpreter, but you sit at a light table with ten thousand feet of film going through it looking at jungle. 7:02 That was rather boring, but I came home from basic training, I picked up my lovely wife, and reported to Baltimore, Maryland, that school was at Fort Holabird, which no longer is. As we were packing up to leave Kalamazoo she said, “you know, the couple of years will be an adventure, Gabe, we’ll have an adventure, let’s look at it as an adventure, all right?” Twenty-seven years later we came home. It all was an adventure. Interviewer: Tell me a little more about the photo interpreter’s school. I got there and the very first thing that happened—and that was very instrumental in my whole career, because I got there and read the school rosters, and my name was not on the rosters, so, of course, you go over to your NCO, and say, “my name's not on there”, and he said, “what’s your name kid?” 8:06 I tell him, and he said, “oh, hell, yeah, you can’t start school yet, go talk to that sergeant over there”, so I do and he said, “you can’t start school, your wife doesn’t have a clearance”, and I said, “my wife’s not in the Army”, and he said, “it doesn’t make any difference, your wife needs clearance”, and I said, “How do we do that?” He said, “fill out this paperwork”, so I take it home that night, and her and I—she said, “I’m not going to fill out that paperwork”, and I said, “you have to, if I want to go to school you have to fill out that paperwork”, and she said, “I’m not in the Army”, and I said, “never mind, don’t argue about that, that’s the government”, 4 �and she said, “all right”, so we filled it out, it was submitted, and they said, “this is going to take somewhere between three and four months to complete, so you’re going to just hang around”. “I don’t want to hang around, you know”, and they said, “well, that’s it you’re going to hang around”, and this guy said, “Do you know how to type?” I said, “yeah”, and he said, “all right , go to work in that office over there”, so I went to work for that office, and I was working for a Sergeant Major. 9:05 He kind of liked me because I got there at 6:30 in the morning, and the office was opened at 7:30 in the morning, and after I worked there two or three days I said, “you know, if you give me a key I can open up, clean the ash trays, make the coffee, and kind of do all the cleaning and things like that, and we won’t have to do it at 7:30 when the office opens”. He gave me a key and I started doing all that, and he thought, “that’s the cat's meow, you’re a good kid, man”, so he kind of took me under his wing, and in the process of a couple of months he got me promoted a couple of times. Then he came in with a piece of paper and he showed me how in 1966, I could make thirty-five hundred good dollars by going to OCS and extending my three years about five months. Thirty-five hundred dollars, you’re not old enough to remember 1966, but that was a new Corvette. 10:05 I told my wife, “Man we could, wow”, and she said, “whatever you want to do, “, and I said, “that’s a new Corvette, and all I have to do is go to school”, so I put my hand up and I said, “yeah, I’ll go to Officers Candidate School”, and they said, “great, great, great”. I went to OCS, down at Fort Benning, Georgia, and got there in March of 1967, and graduated in August of 1967. Hot, jeez, Fort Benning—like Fort Leonard Wood, I had my own words for Fort Benning, but I graduated from OCS on the 31st of August, and immediately went to airborne school and became a paratrooper, because I was being assigned to the 101st 5 �Airborne Division as a military intelligence officer out of the infantry school at Fort Benning. They said, “If you want to go and get jump qualified, all you need to do is sign this paper. 11:03 “Sure, I’ll go, I might as well, I belong to the division”, well that was worth $110.00 a month jump pay, so I went to jump school and finished jump school. They said, “hey, you’re going to get at least thirty days leave, you go home and you guys are all going to go to Vietnam. The 101st had been over in Vietnam, but we had two cars by that time, not a Corvette, not a Corvette, I was saving the Corvette. I said, “look, we could leave one car at Fort Campbell, we’ll take the other car back home to Michigan, we’ll enjoy the family, and spend thirty days up there, it’s going to be autumn and it’s going to be really, really great”. So, I went to Fort Campbell, I found out that unit, went in and said, “hey, I would like to leave a car”, and they said, “You’re not Hudson by any chance are you? I said, “yeah, I’m Hudson”, and they said, “The old man wants to see you”. Man, I don’t have a uniform on, I’m in civilian clothes, you know, I probably need a haircut, nah, nah”, and they said, “that’s all right, he understands what you look like in uniform, go on”. 12:08 So, I interrupt this Major, and this Major says, “am I ever glad to see you, we’ve got a kind of special job for you”, and I said, “Oh, you do, what is this special job?” He said, “Were you planning on going on leave?” I said, “yes sir, I haven’t had any leave in about a year, you know, and my wife and I, thirty days”, and he said, “Will you take five?” I said, “wait a minute”, and he said, “you’re going to take a boat to Vietnam”, “A boat?” “A boat”, and I said, “I don’t know anything about a boat, and he said, “you don’t need to, all you need to do is ride in the boat”. Interviewer: Before we go on to the boat and discuss what was going on with that. I want to go back a little bit to some of this training that you did. When you did the 6 �standard OCS at Fort Benning, what was the atmosphere there like? I mean, do you have a bunch of guy, who expect, probably, are going to go off and be platoon leaders in Vietnam or something? 13:05 Absolutely, we all knew that, we all knew that, our morale was high, feeling were good, you know, none of us were going to get greased, we’re all going to make it. Interviewer: Were the people who were training you, ones who had been there already? "Son, if you don’t learn this you’re going to die in Vietnam”, that was their thing. “You got to learn this or you’re going to die in Vietnam, don’t go to sleep on us here, or you’re going to die in Vietnam”, and of course we started duty day about 4:30 AM, and went to bed sometime between 11:00 and 12:00 PM, you know. We would go into airconditioned classrooms at Fort Benning, and immediately the sleep machine would come on. The atmosphere was good, the morale was high, I had a good bunch of people that I trained with, and some of them I still correspond with. We email, and that makes it so easy now. We lost, probably forty percent in Vietnam. 14:06 We had a very high attrition rate of people that got killed over there. Interviewer: In 1967, even much of the news reporting etc., was still fairly positive. The military’s expectations were still pretty positive at that stage. Yes they were, of course, that was the build-up—LBJ was just sending division after division over there, and the build-up was going on very, very rapidly. Interviewer: Tell me a little bit about how jump school worked. What did you do there? 7 �It was a three-week school, and the first week you run, that’s all you do. You run and you learn how to put on a parachute, and you learn how to put on a harness, and you do training on how to get out of your harness, how to get into your harness, you go through the jump commands. The second week you go to tower week, which you jump out of a thirty-four foot tower with you harness on and you ride a wire down to the ground. 15:07 That’s basically a lot of fun, and I was in absolutely phenomenal shape—I had just finished OCS, and your “charging airborne”, they all wore black hats, and that’s what you called the sergeants, “charging airborne”, and they were really on the Second Lieutenants. There were a couple of us there, I was a little short guy, and I went through jump school with another guy, Flaherty, who was four foot nine, and they use to accuse us of looking for thermals, so we could stay up in the air longer and wouldn’t have to run, during our jump break. Interviewer: Right You went through tower week, and then on Monday morning you went to jump week, and jump week was a five-day week. We finished on Wednesday, two jumps on Monday, two jumps on Tuesday, and one jump on Wednesday morning. 16:11 We graduated on the drop zone, and we were done. Interviewer: Now, what proportion of the people who started the jump school finished with you? About ninety-nine percent, ninety-eight percent, and most of them were was due to injuries. If you got hurt or something like that, they would push you back, or drop you out, but there weren’t a lot of dropouts. 8 �Interviewer: Now, the people in jump school were you just with other officers or were there others? No, there were all ranks, all ranks, and in fact, my stick buddy on the airplane, was a Marine private, and on our fifth jump we were riding in a C119, an old twin engine, rattle trap of an airplane. We finally got airborne after a couple of tries, and he said, “Sir, have you ever landed in an airplane?” 17:05 “Sure”, and he said, “Is it like taking off, or is it more fun?” He was a Marine, and he was our soldier—he was a Soldier of the Cycle, because he was a good kid, and it was very unusual for a Marine, but he was a good kid and the officers, and NICO’s that were in the class, we voted him “Soldier of the Cycle”, and we all voted for that Marine, and I can’t remember his name anymore. He was on his way to Vietnam, and he going recondo, to a recondo unit over there, and I said, “Are you going to jump over there?” and he said, “oh, yeah sir, yes sir, I want to jump, recondo, recondo, great, great”. Interviewer: Now, recondo, is that a version of reconnaissance or something else? It’s a Marine version of reconnaissance. 18:05 They were good, they were very, very, very good, and on my second trip I got to support them a little bit. Interviewer: Is that a cross between reconnaissance and commando? Is that what the-do-part would be do you suppose? Like the Rangers or Special Forces? Yeah, I don’t know, but they would drop them in somewhere and pick them up in five or six days. We did that with our LRPS, Long Range Patrol Special Forces, I’m not exactly sure what it was. He was a good soldier, a good Marine. I’d say, “you’re a good soldier”, and he would say, “No sir, I’m a Marine”. 9 �Interviewer: So, that kind of fills in some of the blanks. Go back, and you’re informed that you’re going to go ride a boat. Ride a boat—you know, there’s one thing I want to throw in here. As a high school kid I was not the Valedictorian, I had a lot of fun in high school. 19:08 I played sports, had a little part time job, had a couple of girl friends, but I started a typing class, I think it was my junior year, and the first semester went well. I was getting B’s and C’s, you know, and the girls were typing fast, so the second semester the girls just pushed the throttles home, you know, they were doing seventy words a minute, and I’m still over there at ten and eleven words. I said to myself, “I’m going to fail this class”, and I never failed anything in my life, so I went to the teacher, the teachers name was DeHaven, Cecil DeHaven, a little bit taller than I was, and I said, “Mr. DeHaven, I want to drop this class”, and he said, “no, you’re not”, and I said, “you don’t understand, I’m going to fail, and I want to go to college, and I don’t want that failure on my records when I apply to college”. 20:10 He said, “I don’t care, you’re going to complete this class”, and I said, “I’m going to go and see the principal”, and he said, “sure, come on”, so we went up there to see Mr. Miller, Bob Miller, and I said, “I want to drop this typing”, “Why?” I said, “I’m going to fail it”, and he said, “So what?” I said, “listen, I’ve never failed anything in my life Mr. Principal, I don’t want to do that, I don’t want a failure”, and he said, “well, I’m sorry son, you’re going to hang in there, so I won’t let you drop it”, and he was God, all right? So, we walked out of there and DeHaven told me, when we got back to the typing room, “Gabe, just learn the keyboard, you’re going to fail the course, and I don’t care if you write papers for the class, write letters to your girlfriends, I don’t care what you do, but when you come in, sit there and learn the keyboard and learn to 10 �type”. 21:06 Well, it was because I knew how to type that I got the job that I did when I got to Fort Holabird. I found that Sergeant Major that said, “hey son, you can do a little bit better than the average Joe”, and it was because of that guy. I went back a couple of years ago, and of course, he’s dead, but I found his son, and he had married a classmate of mine. I told him the story, and he said, “you know Gabe, as I get older, once or twice a year somebody will grab me and say, “your dad really did something””, and it’s a little anecdote, but those teachers, and it’s today because I taught for a while, those teachers really do care about kids, and they do the very, very best that you want, you know, that they think that they’re going to do for you. 22:00 Anyway, that’s another thing, you’re question was? Interviewer: We’re back to the boat. Yeah, yeah, I got on this boat, and we went to Mobile, Alabama, from Fort Campbell, Kentucky, and if you steer from Fort Campbell, Kentucky about 180, you're bound to run into Mobile. We got down there, and there were sixteen of us, and twelve were going to go in one boat, and then four of us were going to go on another boat. “All right, we’ll go”, and one of the Majors told me as we were going down there, he said, “now you watch them how they load that equipment, and make sure that they don’t bang it up or anything else”. I said, “Al lright, yes sir, we can do that, we’re Lieutenants, you know”. Well, the other Lieutenant outranked me by maybe a week, you know, we were both brand new green Lieutenants. We got down there, and the very first morning we were there, we were sleeping on these ships, or boats, or freighters, freighters is what they were, and they were hauling, putting all this equipment on there. 23:02 They didn’t handle it with chains or anything else, they would put a truck on there, and then they 11 �would cut logs and timbers and lodge those things into place. Now it’s all chains, and they can load a ship in a few hours, where it took days to load that thing. Anyway, they banged a deuce and a half against this wall and put a big dent in it, so this guy said, “we better go over and talk to that operator”, and I said, “maybe we aught to just let him do his job”, and he said, “no, we’ve got to go talk to that guy”, so we went over and said, “you better be careful with that”, and of course that operator, a big teamster you know, he kind of told us where we could take the truck, and the ship, and his crane. So, I said, “you know Tony, we ought to go downtown and have a beer, I think they can do this by themselves”. They left in about a day or two days, and thry said, “all right Hudson, you and those three guys, two sergeants and a black kid, Reggie Pruitt, you guys are going to come later when they get that ship loaded”. 24:08 “Ok”, so a day or two went by and nothing happened, so I went and found this Major and said, “What’s going on?” He said, “were missing a train”, and I said, “Wait a minute, how can you lose a train?” And he said, “We don’t know where it’s at. It left Fort Campbell”, and I thought, “Wait a minute, what kind of government operation is this?” Now I know about those things, now that I’m older, but how can you lose a train? A couple of days later I tell this guy, “we're doing nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing”, so this Major comes, and he finds us, and said to me, “we found the train it’s in Chicago”, and I said, “Wait a minute, how did it get to Chicago?” “Don’t ask questions, Hudson, it’s going to be here in two or three days, and they’re going to work around the clock to get it loaded, and you’ll probably be leaving in seven or eight days”. “Ok”, and I went and got my people together and told them. 25:06 This one NCO said, “you know we got rent-a-car on our orders, we ought to rent a car so we can get around Mobile”, and I said, “I don’t know anything about 12 �that”, and he said, “It’s on there, do you have a credit card?” I said, “yeah, I got a credit card”, and he said, “you can rent it, Lieutenant”, and I said, “all right, I guess that’s all right, it says so on the orders”, so we rented a Camaro convertible, and had a ball with it. This Reggie Pruitt came to me and he said—he was an artilleryman—“I haven’t been home, and I’d like to go home and see my children before I go to Vietnam”, and I said, “I can’t grant you a leave”. He lived in Alabama, and we were in Mobile, and I said, “I can’t grant you a leave, you’ve got to... I don’t know what to do”, and he said, “I’m going to Vietnam, I know that, and if you let me go home—I’m not doing anything here”. 26:08 I said, “Well, will you promise to come back?’ He said, “oh yes sir, I promise I’ll come back”, so I said, “all right, here’s the telephone number of that office in there, and you call every two or three days, so you go one home”. He called his parents, and they came down, and it was like four families came down to pick him up, and they took him home. He kept calling, and finally I said, “you need to come back because we’re loading the ship and getting ready to go”, so they all came back, all the families, and his father came up and thanked me. He said, “it was very nice to see Reginald before he goes to war, he had a chance to see his kids, and see all us, and we appreciate it, and we would kind of like to do something for you”. 27:03 I said, “you can’t do anything for me”, and he said, “we’ll say a prayer, we’ll say a prayer for you, that’s good”, but Reggie never came home, he was killed over there, as did the two NCOs, one was a medic and he took it in Bien Hoa when we were at Bien Hoa with the 101st, and the other one died in an airplane accident. Out of the four, I was the only one that came back home. That weighs heavy on my mind sometimes, of why I came home. We had a great time going over there on the ship. The very first or second day I was up on the bridge and was 13 �sitting in the Captain's chair, and I found out that I shouldn’t sit in the Captain's chair. Just before we got into Panama, we were in some really, really, rough seas there, in the gulf, and we sat down for breakfast, and I kept looking out this porthole—up and down, up and down, popping Dramamine. 28:10 I was taking Dramamine by the handful, and one of the cooks, we all ate in the officers galley, that was a decision, whether we were going to eat with the men, or whether we were going to eat in the officers galley, and I made that—I said, “look, were all going to war, let’s take a table for four in the officers galley”, and they said, “wherever you want to be, that’s fine with us”. So, that morning I cut into my eggs, and they were just a little bit raw, and that was it. I said, “man, I’ve got to get out of here”, and I started running for the door. I knew if I got to the door, I could get right to the side, because I was going to throw up. Just as I opened the door and started in, this great big Captain Brown was coming in, and he was probably 10 foot 5, and I ran into him, looked right at his belt buckle, said, “I’m sorry sir”, and threw up all over his leg. 29:09 Oh, I felt so bad, I threw up things I ate as a baby, and they helped me upstairs, I laid down in my room, and we had this old black steward that came up about a half an hour later and he gave me some water, and told me to just lay down and rest. He said, “if you feel like throwing up, throw up, just keep on throwing up”, and about lunch time the same guy came back, and he had been at sea for two hundred years, or something like that, and he had a plate of raw onions and soda crackers, and said, “eat these”. I thought, “you’re out of your mind”, “eat them”, and I ate them, and I was never seasick after that, not a bit. 30:04 We get in and start up the Saigon River, and I drew a 45 out of the arms room, the supply room, we didn’t have an arms room, and I had to buy my own ammunition for it because all the ammunition was packed. I thought, “if we’re 14 �going up this river we ought to get a 45, at least you have some kind of arms, you know, going on the river”, so I went and got a 45. I don’t know if you ever shot a 45 before, but the 1911 army 45, in my capabilities with a weapon, could maybe hit that wall. So, I got this thing and I stuck it in my belt, I walked out on the deck and some guy said, “What the hell are you doing with that?” I said, “What happens if we get attacked?” He said, “put that thing away before you hurt somebody”, and I said, “yes sir”, and I tucked it back in my duffle bag. We rode up river, got there and started to unload the boat. 31:01 Interviewer: Had you stopped anyplace along the way? No, no, we took thirty-seven days, thirty-seven days. My wife said, “let’s go on a cruise”, and I said, “I’ve been on a cruise, and I don’t care to go on any more”. The food was outstanding, the people that were on the ship were outstanding, they were all—they knew we were going to war. The cook, he was a guy named Pierre, and it was a good trip. It was really, just a fantastic trip. 32:02 Interviewer: So, basically, at this point, we have gotten to Vietnam, your on the boat, you’re heading up the Saigon River, now do you unload yet at Saigon, or outside of it? We unloaded at Saigon, and they motored all of that equipment through the streets up to Bien Hoa, which was about twenty to twenty-five miles to the north. Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there? It stunk, diesel oil and heavy in the diesel oil and diesel fumes. Around all the military installations they mixed human waste with diesel oil and burned that, so that was always a very appetizing thing wake up to in the morning. Very, very crowed streets, and I didn’t expect anything like that. It was a real eye opener. We were there two or three 15 �days, and we finally decided we were going to go see of we could get something to eat other than on the ship, and everything else. 33:09 We wandered into a, like a French coffee house and had some French espresso, and I determined right there that I didn’t like French espresso at all. But, there was some great food over there, and I found my way around Saigon a little bit, and learned my way around. I got to go back to Saigon quite a bit while we there the first couple of months at Bien Hoa. Then right after Tet in 1968, which was late January 30 or 31 of January, the division moved north, and we move up to Hue Phu Bai, which later became Camp Eagle. Interviewer: What were you doing while you at Bien Hoa? I was a military intelligence officer, and we were working in the imagery interpretation section of the 101st military intelligence detachment. 34:04 There were about twenty of us that worked in that section. Interviewer: Were you there when the Tet offensive started? Yes, yes Interviewer: So, what, if anything, happened around, to your unit, or around it? Well, we were on Bien Hoa army base, which was right next door to Bien Hoa air base, and the Bien Hoa air base was attacked by a sapper battalion, and after the attack we found—after the fact, we found our barber we use to go to, Fred the barber we called him, and he had a little barber shop, he was in the wire with a satchel charge on him, so I guess he had cased it pretty well, you know. Anyway, he was dead in the wire. They hit us pretty hard with a lot of rockets, and a lot of mortars. My wife, and of course, she was home here, and she heard on the radio that Bien Hoa army and Bien Hoa airbase had been overrun, and there were hundreds of casualties, which is not true, but we had a hell of a 16 �battle there. 35:11 We were not overrun, and I don’t think any, except for a couple of them, even got inside the wire. They did do something that really hurt us though, they blew up a class six store, that’s a booze store, they blew that up and they hurt one of the clubs. The army in Vietnam was a little bit different than the army in Iraq and Afghanistan now, where they shy away from alcohol and everything else. It was pretty readily available, like a dime a beer, you know, and a dime a mixed drink, they had clubs for everybody. Interviewer: Was the army base under attack for just a short amount of time? It lasted about a day and a half. Interviewer: What were you doing during that day? 36:02 We were inside the wire enough that we continued our mission, but we put a sentry outside to kind of keep an eye on what was going on, but we were also at division headquarters, so we were pretty well protected. Nothing other than bullets fling over your head every so often, or a mortar going off, we continued to do our work. We were pretty busy and you try to do—they were taking some photos of what was going on that day, and some of that stuff was coming back and was pretty hot, and we were taking a look at that, and putting reports out on that. Interviewer: So you were looking at pictures of the Saigon area and what was going on there? We were looking at pictures of the Bien Hoa area, and that was kind of interesting. That all died down and you kind of went back to business as usual. We also started flying a little bit over there. 37:07 We had a—it was very hard for us to get imagery, photographs, or negatives, or whatever it was. The priority that the 101st had was not 17 �real, real high, so we decided among us in the imagery and interpretation shop, that if we got some cameras, we could go out and shoot some sites ourselves, on points of interest to the division, and we could build those inks or photo maps, or whatever we needed to do, from that hand held stuff. We ended up with three or four Pentex cameras, and that’s how most of us started flying over there, laying on the floor of a helicopter, or hanging out the window of a Bird Dog, and snapping pictures. We opened our own development center where we would develop our own film, and we did that, and that was a lot of fun. 38:09 Very, very interesting, and then you begin to fly with the same people again, and again, and they would say, “hey, if you’re going to fly with me, and if something happens to me, you better be able to take that stick in the back and at least put us on the ground, you know”. “Do you think I could fly? Put that stick back in there”. Puts the stick back and were out of the Bird Dogs, you know, and “hey man, this is great”, and I thought, “I’d really like to do this”, and I fell in love with flying over there. When we moved up north to Camp Eagle, we had flew by, and we had four hours, like four hours of Bird Dog a day, and we normally had two hours of helicopter first and last hour of the day. Interviewer: Can you explain what Bird Dog refers to? 39:00 It was an L-1, it was a little single engine old Piper Cub, starch wing, not a lot of power, but we hung a couple rockets on each wing and go looking. It was aerial reconnaissance, recon; we would do some aerial recon, visual recon, and it was a good mission, we did a lot of good work, and wasted a lot of fuel too, wasted a lot of fuel. We got up north and I was with the division until July, and then they sent me down to a brigade, 2nd Brigade, I was doing the same thing at the brigade as I was doing at the division, and ended up getting a couple of aircraft hours every day, and we’d take a look at prints of interest that 18 �the old man, the brigade commander wanted, or targets that we thought might be worthwhile, and also, some helicopter time. 40:05 Flying the helicopter, I began flying with the same kid day after day, after day, and a young kid, both about the same age, and he was a warrant officer and I was a Lieutenant. I said, “Can I fly this thing?” He said, “Do you think you know how?” We would trade off and the more I flew, I just really, really loved it, so I told my wife, “one thing I would like to do when I get back to the states, I’d like to go to flight school and learn how to fly”. Interviewer: Did you spend a full year over there doing this kind of work? Fifteen months Interviewer: Fifteen months? Yeah, I had the pleasure of being extended. When we first got there, of course we were all aware of the “Screaming Eagle”, we’re all tough as nails, and the boss, the detachment commander said, “some of you guys, you know we’re not all going home the same week, so some of you guys have gotta leave and go to other units”, “not me, not me, not me, not me”, so the boss did, he left, and he went to another unit. 41:13 We get this new guy in, and this new guy said, “All right, you guys gonna hang around? You can hang around all you want. Draw straws, some of you are going to go home early, and some of you are going home late”, and I got to go home late. Interviewer: so, they were setting it up so they could rotate in replacements, and not move the whole group out at the same time? Right, you could lose a couple of people a month and never lose any kind of continuity, or mission accomplishment, or anything like that. You could keep everything on the up and up, and keep on moving. 19 �Interviewer: How dangerous was the work you were doing at this point? What was the risk of getting shot down? They shot at you quite a bit. They weren’t very good shots, but they shot at you, and they didn’t like you taking pictures. If you shot at them they would normally shoot at you. 42:05 We carried an M16, and a 38 in your survival vest, so we didn’t have a lot of fire power, but we did have a couple of rockets. Normally with white phosphorus, which we called “Willie Pete” for marking targets on the wings, and it was on a regular basis, those gommers didn’t like you shooting at them. We got our helicopter shot up one time, and we had to put it down on the ground because they hit the transmission, and “psst”, sixty pounds of pressure in there and all the oil was coming out. Later I learned later that the immediate reaction is “land now”, so we set it on the ground, and the little gomers were not too far away, and another bird came in and picked us up. There was no way we were going to get that out of there, so the guys called some Cobras in and they blew the machine in place. 43:01 We got the radio heads, the radio heads we got--the pilots did that, they had the radios, they pulled those out of there, and the machine was destroyed on the ground. Interviewer: You didn’t want to leave anything behind that the enemy could use? No, because they used everything, they used whatever you left behind they used, and we had an incident in—it must have been August or September of 1968, and I was out with this kid in this chopper, Hughes 500 helicopter, and we found an artillery shell, a 175, pretty good size shell, and it was laying beside a trail, and somebody had moved it. It’s not unlikely, when you shoot a artillery barrage, that some of those rounds don’t go off, so what those clowns would do, they would go and dig those things up and make booby 20 �traps out of them. 44:01 We found this thing, it was laying—obviously somebody had carried it, because it just didn’t roll there, and we tried—it was right on the division—the boundaries between the 1st Cavalry, the cavalry was still there at Camp Evans, and the 101st Second Brigade. We laid there for a fuel load, trying to get somebody to blow it up, give us some artillery, do something in there to blow that thing up. They said, “It’s not our responsibility, no, we don’t have this—we gotta get clearance from this”, and finally my buddy, Bill said, “Hey, we got enough fuel to get home on, we’re going home”, and he said, “we’re not going to shoot at that with an M16”, so we went home, and I was angry, talked to my boss, “eh”, and I’m “yeah, yeah, yeah”, and he said, “settle down Lieutenant, things like that happen, you know”. 45:03 Well, five days later a 175 blew up and took out five guys from the 101st on a patrol, and I don’t’ know if it was the same shell or not, but it happened within a kilometer of where that thing was at, and you really carry anger. I still carry anger about that, that was so dumb—a couple of rounds could blow it up, you know. Interviewer: When you flew your missions, did you—were you coordinating closely with the units that were on the ground, scouting out things for them, or were you doing more reconnaissance for sort of longer distance planning? Most of ours was for long range planning, but if somebody got into trouble, we would lend them as much support as we possibly could, and they appreciated it, they always appreciated it. “Hey, you got some eyes overhead, you know”. “What’s in that brush line over there?” “You don’t want to know”. 46:02. There was—we had Marines up there us north of where the 101st was at. There was a Marine platoon that got into a hell of a firefight one afternoon, and they were requesting air support. We were in a Bird 21 �Dog, single engine, fixed wing, and the pilot said, “hey Gabe, we could go up there and at least take a look, you know”, because the guy was on guard talking to us, and we said, “we’ll come up and take a look”, so we went up there and made a couple of passes, and threw a couple smoke grenades out, and I told the Marine officer on the ground, I assume he was an officer, and I said, “you got heavy machine guns up there you know, don’t’ do anything until you get some air or something up here to take care of those things. Where’s you fire support?” Where’s this where’s that, and he said, “we don’t have any, we don’t have any”, and they ended up charging them, and it was slaughter, absolute slaughter, and another thing that made me very, very angry. 47:10 When I came back from Vietnam I was ready to get out, and just throw the whole thing to the side. I was so dumb, some of the things. Of course there were no fly zones, free fire zones, you go here you can’t shoot, you go here you can shoot anybody that’s in the area, disgusting. One story—we were up at, the Bo River ran through there, where we were at,--I think it was—I think the Bo was down—I don’t remember—I’m getting old. There was a river anyway, we went up there, and we were at LZ Sally with the 2nd Brigade, and we get a report that there’s pink elephants up at a certain coordinate, and they’re carrying ammunition, and carrying equipment. 48:12 My boss, he threw the thing over to me, and he said, “Have you got an airplane today?” I said, “yes dir”, and he said, “go look for the pink elephants. You know, the brigade commander wants to know where the pink elephants are”. “Jesus, don’t these people—ok, I’ll go look for pink elephants”. Well, we flew up there, and sure enough, there were some elephants, and they had rolled in that red clay over there, and they looked half way pink. “They’re really pink elephants”, “What are you smoking?” “That’s enough, there are pink elephants up here, you know”. 22 �So they called the air force team in, and killed a whole bunch of them. 49:02 Well, we got some rains that night, and got four or five days of rain, and those elephants floated down the river, bloated up and floated down the river, and one of them got stuck just outside our gate, at a bridge, well, you could smell that elephant for miles away down wing, and the people from the village were out carving that elephant up, and it took like two hours and it was gone. They took all of that meat and took it away—an interesting little story. Interviewer: while you were there, on that first tour, did you get any R&R time, or leave time, or anything like that? I met my lovely wife in Hong Kong. 50:01 She was living here in Grand Rapids, working at St. Mary’s Hospital, and I said, “we got five to seven days of R&R, and why don’t you come, and we’ll meet each other in Hong Kong?” We did that at eight months. I was there for eight months before that happened, and she came over there, and we met in Hong Kong, and we had a really great time. Hong Kong is a beautiful, beautiful city. I was supposed to get up and leave at two o’clock in the morning to meet my flight back, and I didn’t go. My wife left the next day about eleven o’clock, or something like that, so I put her on an airplane, and she was flying to Seoul, Korea, we had friends in Seoul. I went to the R&R center, and I said, “I missed the flight”, and they screamed, “LIEUTENANT”, and they screamed, and screamed, and screamed at me. 51:02 Well, there was a navy Lieutenant over there and he said, “Why did you miss the flight?” I said, “my wife was here, I met my wife here, came time for me to go, and we were snuggling and snuggling, and I said, “screw it, I’m not going to go””. He said, “I’m going to get you a ride, and if you miss this ride, I’m going to Court Martial you” and I 23 �said, “don’t worry, I won’t miss the ride”, so I was walking out of there, and you’ve heard of Air America? I went to the Air America thing over there and said, “Hey, you guys going anywhere near Da Nang soon?” They said, “yeah, were going over there tonight”, and I said, “Mind if I ride along?” And they said, “no”, no orders, no nothing, so I ride to Da Nang, catch a helicopter the next day and fly up to Camp Eagle. 52:05 I go in there, sign in, and tell the old man I’m back, and everything else, and he said, “Gabe, you’re a day early”, and I said, “yeah, well, I went into Da Nang rather than—“, so about three months later they get a report that I had missed the airplane. The old man comes down and says, “What is this? You missed the airplane”, and I said, “No, I came home a day early remember?” He said, “ah, stupid Army”, and he threw it down. That was a great trip that was a great, great trip when I met the wife, a great R&R, a great R&R. Interviewer: Are there other things that happened in that first tour that kind of stand out in your memory that we haven’t covered here? No, not particularly. When I came home I landed out here at the airport, and met my lovely wife, I had my first encounter with the “Peaceniks”, because I got spit at walking down the ramp, so I said, “baby killer and the like”, and spit back. 53:10 Interviewer: Was this late 1968 or 1969 then? This was late 1968. My wife pacified me, and she said, “let it go”, and I said, “ok”. Interviewer: Now were you coming down, at this point, in uniform? Oh yeah, you had to travel in uniform, and a little story about that—we—I was being assigned to Fort Lewis, Washington, and I knew that, but my wife was in Michigan. When I went over to start filling out the paper work they said, “we’ll send you to some 24 �place in California and then you can just go to Fort Lewis”, and I said, “I don’t want to do that, I would rather go back to Fort Dix, to the air force base there, that’s where I want to go”, and the guy said, “sir, were supposed to sent you the closest to wherever you’re going”. 54:04 I had just come from the class six store and I had a case of Budweiser on my shoulder, and he said, “of course, we may be able to fix that “, and I set it over on his desk, and he typed it in, and said, “that’s where you’re going”. We get over there and we get home, of course we’re traveling in khakis, we didn’t have any greens with us, so they process us, and we get all the way through customs, you know, and everything else, walk out into the terminal, and run over to—there’s two warrant officers and another Lieutenant, and we kind of paired up together. We walked over to a ticket desk, and I told them I needed to go to Detroit and this guy was going someplace, and we were kind of going all over the place, and she said, “well, there’s a ride out of the Philadelphia airport at eight o’clock for Detroit, but I don’t know how you’re going to make it”. 55:05 I said, “Well, how do we get there?” She said, “well, you’re going to have to go out there and probably catch a limo, and they’ll take you over there”, so these other guys, were all going to go about the same time, but we got to get to Philadelphia. The first limo we got to, we opened the door, and said, “we need to go to Philadelphia”, and the guys said, “well, I normally go with twelve”, and I said, “you have twelve”, and he said, “Right, get in”. Of course you’ve just been paid and you have a pocket full of money, and you don’t even remember what money is. As we started out the door, this little skinny airman, he was maybe ninety pounds, stepped in front of me and said, “Sir, before you leave, you must report to Fort Dix in an army green uniform”, and I said something like, “I’m going to stuff his head somewhere”, and to get out of the way, and he said, “yes, sir”, and he 25 �stepped aside. 56:05 I always kind of felt sorry for that little kid because we weren’t very kind to him, and he was just doing his job. We came home and then I started—we went to Fort Lewis, Washington, we had our first child out there, I started looking for a job, and I had no college degree, because I was drafted. Ok, I want to do something with the training I had, which was photo interpreter, and oil companies, and all of that, were supposed to really be hot on that thing right now. Well, I sent out fifty resumes, and I got two answers. One from the CIA, and one from Defense Intelligence, and I thought, “I don’t want—oh man, what am I going to do?” I was with an aviation unit out at Fort Lewis, and the old man out there was a Lieutenant Colonel, and he really liked me. I used to fly with him a lot in the evenings, because the only time he could really fly, was in the evenings. 57:05 He said, “Why don’t you go to school? Why don’t you?” I said, “well yeah, yeah, I don’t know”, and he said, “Why don’t you go to flight school?” I was sitting at my desk one day, the phone rang, it was the Military Intelligence branch, and a major up there said, “Gabe, you expressed an interest at one time in going to flight school, I can put you in an OV-1”, that’s a twin reconnaissance airplane, which was state of the art at that time, and I said, “you’re kidding”, and he said, “no, I can do it, do you want to go?” “Yes”, “talk to your wife”, “no, I know she’ll approve”, so I hung up, got in my car, left the hangar, drove over to where the headquarters was, and walked in, and had just gotten my boss, and I said, “hey, branch just called and they can get me an OV-1 slot”. 58:01 He opened his desk drawer, and he had all my paper work filled out, he had everything all filled out, and he said, “I knew it, I knew it, sign here”. The next day I went and got a physical, and that afternoon I got on an airplane and we flew it to 26 �Washington, flew the application to Washington, and I left there with orders to go to flight school, and I was very, very happy. Interviewer: Where did they do flight school? Well, we left Fort Lewis, and we were determined that we were going to save money, we were not going to call home. We had to go over to Fort Stewart, Georgia, opposite end of the country. The baby was like three or four weeks old or something like that little baby Carl. We stopped one night in a driving snowstorm in Pueblo, Colorado. 59:00 Pulled off the road and found a place, and we thought we would go over and get a bite to eat, and there were two little old ladies in there, in this restaurant, and they came over and said, “Why do you have a little child like that, out on a night like this? You should be at home.” “We don’t have a home, were in the military and were on our way to school”. Those ladies just shook their heads and walked off, but ok, we get to Fort Stewart, now that’s like five or six days that we were driving, stopped to see one friend along the way, never bothered to call home—we’re going to save money. So, we walk into Fort Stewart, it’s Friday afternoon, I’m supposed to sign in on Monday, but to save a couple days leave, I signed in on Friday afternoon, it’s late and they can’t screw with you. By this time I’m a Captain, I walked in and said, “hey, I’m here for school, I just want to sign in to save some leave”, and this sergeant looks up and said, “You wouldn’t be Hudson would you?” 0:04 “yes”, “Where in the hell have you been?” I said, “driving here”, and he said, “Do you realize that the whole army is looking for you?” I said, “What do you mean, the whole army is looking for me?” He said, “here, a list of messages, 1, call your mother, 2, call this guy before five o’clock at branch, call him first”, so I called him, the same guy that sent me to school, so I called him and he said, “Where are you?” I 27 �said, “I’m at Fort Stewart”, and he said, “Why?”, and I said, “because that’s what the orders say, Fort Stewart, Georgia”, and he said, “the fixed wing course is closed, you’re going to helicopter school”, and I said, “Where’s that?” He said, “Fort Wolters, Texas”, and I said, “oh no”, and he said, “yes”. 1:04 I told my wife, I said, “ok”, when I was going into the building, I said, “at least our travels are over for a while”. And I walked out, and I got in the car, I sat down, and she said, “What’s the matter?” I said, “we’re in the wrong place”, and she said, “What building do we go to?” I said, “Texas”, and only a wife can go off on the army like that. “Hey, it’s not my fault”, so I called my mom, my mom, and dad, and my dad said, “Where have you been?” I said, “traveling”, and he said, “Gabe, the whole army’s looking for you, and they call here every day. Are you in trouble?” “No, I’m not in trouble, I had a change of orders”, and he said, “Why didn’t you call home?” “Saving money, ok?” So we go to Fort Wolters, Texas, get involved in helicopter training, and fell in love—just fell in love with it. Every day was something new and exciting, I had a new baby, and a wife that understood. 2:08 We were in a class of officers, I think there were twelve Captains or so, and we all had Vietnam experience. We're all at least one time losers, sometimes two, a bunch of young kids, and we’re going to learn how to fly army airplanes, and we’re going to contribute to the war effort. Morale was high, we had a great time—we only lost, out of the class, we didn’t lose any of the Captains, we should have lost one Captain, but we didn’t, we didn’t lose the Captain. He couldn’t fly, and he ended up going to Vietnam, and he flew into a mountain with a loaded Huey, and that makes me mad, too. We went through training, had a lot of fun, all of us knew—as soon as you finish you’re going to go right back to Vietnam. 3:02 When I finished helicopter training, I went back to Fort Stewart for a 28 �transition to fixed wing airplanes, and flew the single engine T-41, learned on that, and I was there for eight or nine weeks, and went back to Rucker, and went through a multiengine instrument course. Then I went through a combat surveillance course with the OV-1, and that was just a—what a neat airplane. I’d had a little time in there anyway, stick time, and I knew I was going to an OV-1 unit, and it was a great airplane. I knew I was going to go to an OV-1 unit in Vietnam-Interviewer: You were training to be a pilot? Yes, I was training to be a pilot at that point. The OV-1, we had a bunch of cameras, radar systems, side looking airborne radar, an infra-red system that kind of like low light TV, and all of it was, almost all of it was real time except for the photography. Interviewer: Did a plane like that have a crew, or was it just the pilot? 4:02 The pilot, and he had a tech observer on the other side, and he ran the equipment. He ran the cameras and IR systems, and everything else, but you were aware of what was going on because you had been through the same classes that he did, and you could troubleshoot it. You flew it every day, and they would rotate two or three times a week, so there were just the two of you. A great airplane, fully acrobatic, and the older models had enough power to fly. I got to Vietnam, got assigned to a unit and flew for two or three weeks, and they made me a platoon leader, because of my rank. I was a Captain with a little more seniority than a lot of the guys, so I became a platoon leader, and flew in the mornings, and normally flew at four o’clock. 5:03 Interviewer: Where were you flying out from? We were flying out of Phu Bai first, which is back in I Corps, and we were there for three or four weeks and then we moved down to a place called Marble Mountain, a little 29 �Marble Mountain air field, about a 3500 PSP strip, perforated steel plate, and it was a great, great air strip, kind of short. You’ve got an old airplane ready to gross out at about nineteen thousand pounds, a full load of fuel, and in the afternoon you’re trying to get that thing off at density altitude, you know, and it’s bouncing along, and you’re pulling up, suck up the gears, and get it up, and that’s not altogether true, but it was hard to get off there sometimes with the density altitude, and short runway like that, but it was a lot of fun. Interviewer: Now, were you doing missions similar to what you had done before, just with a better plane? 6:01 No, no, we weren’t doing any of that. We were working mostly for the Embassy down in Saigon, and sending a lot of the stuff back to the states. The mission that I few a lot over there, we had radar, and we would fly off the north coast. We would fly out about fifteen to twenty clicks, we were feet wet, and with side looking radar we looked over to North Vietnam, and we flew up just north of Vinh, and turned around because we couldn’t go any further because we were slow movers. With the radar mission that I had you could pick-up convoys and things like that, and we did a lot at night. Then you would go through a controlling agency, and say, “hey, I got moving targets over here”, and so, and so, and nothing was supposed to be moving. They would say, “ok”, and for a couple of months I worked with a navy call sign “streetcar”, and they loved us because we would pass those targets to them. 7:06 They would go in and—of course you’re sitting there at fifteen thousand feet, and put it on auto pilot, and sit there and looking over there, and “yeah, yeah” listening to the net, you know, how they were going to roll in, and “boom”, you see an explosion, so we did some good work there. 30 �Interviewer: So, were you shooting at a— We didn’t shoot Interviewer: No, but the people who were doing the shooting, you were observing? Yeah, we were observing Interviewer: Were they firing at naval targets or were they on land? They were from a carrier, working the coastal highways. Interviewer: All right, so they were areas where the enemy was not supposed to be moving thing, so they were targets? So, the whole North Vietnam was—you weren’t supposed to move anything. If it was in a big long—if got a long stretch of moving target indicators, it was a convoy, you know it’s a convoy, so you call that in and somebody would go look at it, and it’s a convoy. 8:00 Unfortunately those convoys could shoot back. Interviewer: Now, were you flying mostly at night? I did a lot of the nighttime, but early morning, and then I could do my platoon leader job during the day, and I also was a tech supply officer over there, with the maintenance. Interviewer: Now, did the North Vietnamese have any aircraft they were using in that area? They had MIGs, and I was just north of Vinh one time and we had a MIG call, and I rogered the MIG call, and I probably had ten miles to go, and I was going to go the ten miles and then turn around. Chugging along, fat and happy, and I hear the MIG call, controlling agency came up and our call sigh was “spud”, and they said, “spud, did you get the MIG call?” “Roger, got the MIG call, I got it, I got the call”. 9:05 “Well, he’s about fifty clicks, and moving, at you”, I pull the throttles back and turn that thing over 31 �and got out of there and back on the deck, and learned a lesson that day. Then we flew out of Thailand for a while, and I was over there for ten weeks, and we worked for the Laotian military attaché, we were flying over the Plain of Jars, mostly low light TV or infra-red, and photography, and we did all of that at night. We would take off about ten or eleven o’clock and fly a fuel load, because we did not have capability of in flight refueling, so four hours was a fuel load. You could get—squeeze three and a half out of it, and we did a lot of good work up there, working with the air force in finding targets. 10:06 That was a fun mission, and it was very, very rewarding. I had an incident that happened, and I had a kid come over, and he was running up the system while you were running up the airplane, he said, “I got a problem here, I got a problem”, so I stopped and went back, and fixed his problem with the system, we worked through it, and went back. I always use my book, always use my checklist, and an old friend of mine, he got me into flight school, and he was this guy that said, “Always use your book Gabe”. I picked up the book, and did the whole thing, and we went out and got shot at, not hit, but we were shot at several times, came back landed, we were at Udorn, on roll out, and once you put your gear on the ground, you know, you’d steer with your feet, so you reach up and undo your riser. We had an ejection seat in the airplane and I’m messing with it, and I turn around and the risers were still connected to the seat—I had never connected them. 11:17 I had my lap belt on. We got over to taxi, taxi, shut it down, and I could hardly get out of the airplane. What a dumb thing, what a dumb, dumb thing to do, and that ate on me for five or six days—just really ate on me. Interviewer: So, what could have happened to you? 32 �You pull the handle, read the prayer, and go out of the airplane. The seat went one way and your chutes gone another way. Oh, geeze, you know—nobody else to blame except me. I interrupted my book, and I did not go back to a point that I should have. 12:02 Interviewer: You mentioned that you’re flying over Laos, and the plane is going farther into the country, were you also flying over the Ho Chi Minh Trail area, or the areas along it? No, we did not fly the trail. We were a slow mover, and no, that was left up to the navy and the air force with the fast movers. We did not fly the trail. There were some lucrative targets right in there that we had a lot of fun at. Interviewer: You mentioned there, that you were working with the Laotian Military Attaché. He was American Interviewer: Oh, he was American? He was a military attaché in Vientiane. Interviewer: Ok That was quite a trip. They invited us up there a couple of times for dinner. “Come up and have dinner”, you know, and we would go up there and travel on classified orders with Air America. 13:03 They would tell you what to wear. Wear this color shirt and this color pants. The first time I went to Vientiane, we landed at the airport, on Air America, and I got off, and I met my counterpart, you know, and he said, “Do you want to get any kip?” Kip is there money, and I said, “ yeah, while we’re here I want to get some gold for my wife, you know. I want to go gold shopping and everything else. He said, “ok, they got an exchange booth right over here”, so, I went over there, and a cute 33 �little girl in that booth, and she said, “You want to exchange money?” I said, “yeah, I think I’ll get fifty dollars worth of Kip”, and she said, “How much”, and I said, “fifty dollars”. “Fifty dollars?” “Sure, fifty dollars”, and she said, “just a moment please”, and she went in the back, and when she came out, she had a paper bag full of money. 14:05 She said, “here”, and there were big bill like this, and little bills like this, and I thought, “What is this?” I walk over there with this paper bad, and the guy said, “What did you do?” I said, “I got fifty dollars worth of Kip”, and he said, “Gabe, what are you going to spend fifty dollars worth of Kip on, nobody wants it?” So, we spent as much as we could, and I tried to buy gold with it, but they didn’t want any kip, they wanted a credit card. They wanted a credit card. I went to a gold thing in Vientiane, and I got some gold for my wife, and I said, “I got this Kip”, and they said, “No, you have credit card? You have credit card?” I said, “yes, I have a credit card”, “you give us credit card, and don’t worry, we won’t cheat”, “ok”. That was a good mission over there. 15:00 Interviewer: How long did you spend, then, in Southeast Asia, total in that? I had another fifteen-month tour, because I got back from Thailand, and went back to Da Nang. The unit had moved to Da Nang main at that time, and we were flying out of Da Nang Main, and that was probably late September. Interviewer. What year? 1972, and then we got orders, we were going to stand the unit down, and send it home, so everybody was, “hey, we get to go home, we get to go home”. So, there were four of us in the unit, we’re all doing our jobs, and everything else, and the group commander walked over and asked to see us. Stan Cass, Lieutenant Colonel Stan Cass, he went over there—he and I had done some things together, and I had flown him a couple of times, 34 �and everything else, and he said, “you guys are really lucky”. 16:04 “Colonel, what do you mean?” “Well, you’re all dual rated, right?” “Yes”. “Hudson, you’re going to be my logistics officer”. “I want to go home”, “you can’t go home, I’ve got your body, and you’ve been reassigned. As soon as you get this unit stood down over here, packed up and sent home, come on over, I got a job for you”. So, you sit down and write a letter to the wife, “Not coming home with the unit, you know, I’m being reassigned”. “Why?” When I told her, when we got ready to go, when we were at the airport, I said, “at least they can only get 365 days out of me”. It was a bad thing to say, because I got another fifteen months. Ok, all right, I went over with the 11th Combat Aviation Group, started flying with them, got checked out in helicopters again, and was working for a Major. 17:02 The Major came in one day and said, “listen Gabe, I got to run to the states for just a couple of days, and I’ll be right back”, “yeah”, and he never came back, so Cass said, “your turn in my unit, you’re my fourth”, and I said, “oh man, I want to go home”, and he said, “you can, you and I will go home together”, so we were on the last airplane out of Da Nang. I can truthfully said, I can truthfully say, sir, that I turned the lights off at Da Nang. When we got ready to leave the compound that morning, we turned over the last of the equipment, and everything else, turned it over to a Vietnamese unit, and I said, “Colonel, are you ready to go to the airport?” He said, “I’m, ready to go to the airport” and he flipped the switch. I said, “I turned the lights off at Da Nang”. We went to the airport on 28 March of 1973. Interviewer: So, you were in Vietnam at a time there was—the North Vietnamese lost a major offensive in the spring of 1972, and were you there during that? 18:07 Yes, yes 35 �Interviewer: Did that offensive affect the kind of work you were doing? We did a lot of photo work when they were—they had actually open tanks, at that point, and they had tanks up north, and somebody said, “hey, there’s tanks up there, you know”. “Go up there and look around, and see if you can find any tanks”. Well, they didn’t appreciate us looking around, and they shot up some airplanes. Didn’t hurt anybody, but they shot some of our airplanes up really, really bad. Went back and said, “they have tanks, they have tanks, I have pictures”. “Oh, they don’t’ have tanks”, and I said, “They have tanks. I developed the pictures of tanks”. “Damn, tanks, the North Vietnamese got tanks, right there”. “Sir, we told you that for a long time”, so that was—we worked very hard during that thing there, and there were some very long hours and days. We were just trying to keep them up there in the Dong Ha area. 19:05 Quang Tri, they leveled those areas there. Interviewer: In that second tour then, did you have much of a sense as to what was going on with the war, or how well it was going, or was there a different atmosphere than the first time you were over? Morale wasn’t as good with the soldiers. Aviation units, the morale is usually quite a bit higher than it is with the ground pounders out there. Yeah, you kind of knew what was going on, and of course, you got mail from home, and read the Stars and Stripes, and you kind of felt like we were getting our buts kicked, and we’re going to get out of there, because the politicians at home were just dead set against everything. Washington and the White House were running the war at that point. 20:02 Interviewer: Did you have a sense of how well the South Vietnamese were going to be able to do on their own? 36 �Oh yes, we had—that’s why we were feeling so bad. They were infiltrated so heavily, as we found out, hindsight was twenty-twenty, but we were pretty sure that once we left, once we pulled our combat troops out of there, it was going to just be a matter of time until it fell, from 1973 to 1975, 30th of April. Interviewer: Did you have much contact with the Vietnamese military personnel, especially when you were turning things over to them? Yes, we were on a regular basis, once they got to the camp. We were turning airplanes over to them, and they would come and look at an airplane, and they would want us to change the windshield from Plexiglas to glass, because that was a new thing they were adding to the UH-1 at that time. 21:00 We couldn’t get glass for helicopters, but we were putting glass in their machines, and it really, really made a lot of people angry. Because you fly at night, and you got all this Plexiglas that’s been rubbed raw with thirty thousand rags trying to keep it clean, and all you got is circles and haze, and everything else, and you’re trying to see at night, or during a rain storm and it was just a—“These helicopters, you put glass in windshield? Tomorrow I come back, I take that”. I had a unit, a Cavalry unit that was up north, and they were standing down, and they owed me six airplanes, which we were going to take, and you turn them into the maintenance facility, and they fix them up, and they turn it over to the Vietnamese. 22:01 So, we got this thing all straightened out, they’re going to bring these six airplanes down, set them on the ground, they’re going to do it early in the morning, the Major talked to me and said, “now look, were going to bring these things in, were going to crews and everything else, we’ve got a ten o’clock flight out of Da Nang, were all going home, I don’t want any B.S, I don’t want anything done, I want to come in, get the paperwork done, and 37 �leave”. I said, “as long as your paperwork is done sir, we can do all of that in fifteen or twenty minutes, you know. Check some tail numbers, check a couple of things out, and I’m counting on you to be straight”. “I’m straight”, and he got in there about twenty minutes later, “all done”, and I said, “Major, that machine you flew in over there”, and he said, “What machine?” I said, “that machine over there”, and he said, “I didn’t fly that in”, and I said, “sure you did, you flew that machine in”, and he said, “I didn’t fly that machine in. What’s the matter with you Captain?” I said, “you flew that machine in here”, and he said, “no, I didn’t do that, were leaving, I don’t know, it was here, it was on the pad”, and I said, “sir, there was nothing on the pad when you guys came in here”. 23:05 He said, “look, I owe you six helicopters, and there’s six helicopters”, and I said, “there’s seven helicopters”, and he said, “I don’t know what that one is, that’s your problem Captain, not mine”, and he took his people and left. So, my buddy and I went to take a look at it, and it was a pretty nice machine, a B model, and not one serial number on it anywhere, and no book. John McGee said, “Do you think it will start?” I said, “it flew in here, see if it will start”. Hmm, hmm, a smooth machine, man, we flew that thing for a month and a half, we had our own airplane. We were getting ready to leave, and he got notice that he was going to leave two days before I was, and he called me and he said, “hey I’m going home tomorrow morning at five o’clock”, and I said, “Why are you calling?” He said, “I’m not going to be there anymore”, and I said, “What am I going to do with that airplane?” He said, “come on over and we’ll drive it over and park it in the ARVN POL point”, and I said, “That’s a great idea”. 24:09 We drove it over to the POL point, filled it up full of fuel, got out, had a driver pick us up, and were gone> Interviewer: So, you made your own donation? 38 �It’s probably still sitting there, still sitting there. Interviewer: while you were there, how much contact did you have with any of the civilians in Vietnam? Did you see much of the civilian population? Yeah, when I got to be with the 11th CAG, Combat Aviation Group, we made a regular run downtown for a couple of good restaurants, and we would have dinner once or twice a week, and got to know several of them there. I had a very close relationship with a Vietnamese orphanage, and I adopted a daughter from Vietnam, who just gave us our ninth grandchild a week ago, a week ago yesterday, so I did quite a bit with the civilian population, selectively, selectively. 25:08 Interviewer: Did you have any sense of what their attitude towards Americans was, or was it just kind of where you were, or when? They didn’t want us to leave because they didn’t know what was going to happen, and many of those people supported the effort, the Vietnamese, the effort of us being there, and they knew they couldn’t hang on to it, and they all wanted to get out. They said, “Will you help me go to the states? Help me go to the states?” “Sure, I’ll help you”, but you just couldn’t do it. Interviewer: How complicated was it to arrange to adopt a child from there? Well, I went to the orphanage one morning because I was with the 131st, the OV-1 company, and I was the orphanage officer. 25:59 It was up to me, at the end of the day, to divide the spoils of the mess hall into three different piles, so that the Buddhist orphanage, the protestant orphanage, and the Catholic orphanage all got the same amount. If they didn’t get the same amount they would complain, so it took an officer to do that. In the process of doing that, I got to know the nuns, I’m a Catholic, and I got to 39 �know the nuns fairly well, in the Catholic orphanage. I went in there one day, and I said, “sister”, Sister Rose was her name, and she was about three feet high, I think. I said, “I’d really like—my wife and I want to adopt a little baby out of Vietnam and take it to the states”, and she said, “wait, wait, wait”, and she left, it was just that fast, and she came out carrying this baby. “Here’s your baby”, and I said, “wait a minute, no, not now, I can’t take a baby now”. 27:04 She said, “I know, this is your baby, this is your baby, this is your baby”, and I said, “I thought maybe I would get to choose”, and she said, “no, you don’t get to choose, this is your baby, I know this is your baby”, and I said, “ok, I guess so”. And there was a—she had a contact; there was an American worker over there that helped with some of the paperwork in the Da Nang area. I had to hire a lawyer here in the states and he worked pretty cheap, almost gratis. My wife found him, she was at Lewis at the time, Fort Lewis, and he did most of his work for nothing. A lot of the paperwork—all it needed was a red stamp and a lot of the red stamp was done in Saigon, they couldn’t do it locally, you had to go down to Saigon. 27:59 So, of course, I had an airplane at my disposal, and Saigon was two and a half hours away, so I said, “I’ll fly it down”. You go to these ministries down there, all these different ministries and everybody wanted a bribe, everybody wanted ten buck, or twenty bucks. Well, when I got ready to leave country the said, “oh no, you—baby? Baby go? Two hundred”. At that point---I said, “I ain’t paying”, and they said, “all right”, so she didn’t come home with me, and I got home, and my wife said, “Where’s the baby?” I said, “still there”, and I explained the situation, and she said, “you should have paid”, and I thought, “oh, God”. You had to be there, you know, everybody had their hand out, everybody, and you get to the point where you say, “I’m not going to do this anymore”. So, that was March, and in 40 �about June, I think, we got a letter from this girl over there, to send six hundred dollars for plane fare. 29:08 They wanted a cashier’s check, or something, not a personal check, so we sent six hundred dollars, and never heard another word. In august, about this time, right around this time of the month, one Sunday evening, we had already gotten to bed, two boys, and the phone rang. They said, “this is so, and so, and I’m in Los Angeles, and I’ll be in Phoenix tomorrow morning at nine. I have your baby”, and we said, “What? What?” they said, “yeah, I have your baby, and we’ll be in Phoenix at nine”. So, I was at school, and called my class leader, and said, “I got to go and pick up my baby”, and he said, “most people do at the hospital, Gabe”, but we drove to Phoenix, and she was one sick, she was one sick puppy. 30:03 She got taken care of and she turned out to be a delight. She graduated from high school Summa Cum Laude, graduated from college Summa Cum Laude, and she has worked, almost since 1994 for Delta Airlines. She’s a special education teacher, she works two jobs, and she’s married to a Marine Lieutenant Colonel who’s in Iraq for his sixth tour. She’s the one that just had a baby, and she ended up—it was a delight. She came and proved to be a very worthwhile young lady. Interviewer: So, you kind of—what was it like to come home the second time from Nam? You talked a little bit about the reception the first time, was it different? It was a little bit different, you came home, and the war effort had died down considerably. We changed clothes in Hawaii, so we were traveling in civilian clothes, we weren’t carrying anything like that, and you’re just glad to get back home. 31:10 Glad to get back home, and spend a couple weeks before you go back to the army. 41 �Interviewer: By this time, had you basically decided you were going to have a career in the military, or were you looking to get out? No, it was already—you know, with each school you learn fixed wing, you learn rotary wing, each of those carry an obligation, you know, so by the time the obligations going to be up, it’s going to be eight or nine years in the service, and it’s not too bad. I could have gotten out, gotten out, and a lot of my friend did. They said, “hey, you know, you’ve got some skills, go with the airlines”, but I had a bunch of kids at home, and military life wasn’t that good, but it wasn’t that bad either, so I said, “we’ll hang around for a while”. 32:06 I just decided that was going to be it, and after—I came back from Vietnam, went to school, advanced course, military advanced course, and then the Department of Army said I needed a degree, and they sent me to college for a year to St. Benedict's out in Atchison, Kansas. That was a good year, full pay, full benefits, they picked up everything, and all I had to do was go to school, and that was a fun year that was a great family year. So, then it was to Fort Bragg, we went to Fort Bragg, and I got a company there, I commanded a company there for a while. I was at Bragg for three years and we went with the reserve components up to Wisconsin, and I got a chance to really learn how to fly helicopters up there. I was with an attack unit, and was an advisor. 33:06 I had never—I was flying an attack machine like ten hours, but I was an advisor, and I told the people at DA, I said, “Why are you sending me, a fixed wing pilot, I’ve got 300 hours in a UH-1, 0 hours in a Cobra, and you’re sending me there?” They said, “you’ll learn, you’ll be all right”, and it was a great tour, it was a great, great tour. From there we went to Korea and we were in Korea three and a half years--three years. Interviewer: When was that? 42 �We got to Korea--went to Korean language course in 1981, so we went to Korea in 1982. We spent a year out in Monterey, in the language course, and learned to speak Korean. 33:58 A difficult language, and now I’m thirty-five years old or something like that, and maybe even older than that, and I’m not too good at language anyway, and can barely speak English. So, they sent me to language school, complete the whole thing, get my diploma, and go to Korea. End up over there, my first night in Korea, they put me up in this hotel, well, the flight from Seattle to Seoul was seventeen hours, or something like that, and I got to Seoul, and got to this hotel, so now you’re running at about twenty-one to twenty-two hours that you’ve been up, and all I really wanted was a cool beer, and something to eat. They put us in a hotel, Korean hotel, U.S., supposedly U.S., so I go down to the bar with my very, very best Korean, and ask for one beer in Korean, and this cute little thing said, “What?” 35:07 I said it again, and she said, “What? You speak English?” “Yes”, and she said, “Do you want a beer?” I said, “that’s what I would like”, but the rest of the tour I worked in a combined headquarters over there with Koreans, and it was a great tour. The Korean people are absolutely outstanding people, and they like Americans. All you need to do is show a little bit of interest in their culture and their country, and they love you, and they’ll do just about anything for you, so we had a great time. By this time we had some kids, and had little blond haired, blue-eyed girls, and take them to a market, and the mamasans would just go absolutely crazy. 35:59 They would come over there and pull on their hair, and my wife was a blond, and they would sneak up behind, and pull their hair, feel of their hair, and they would turn around and look in your eyes, you know, and they were yak, yak, yak’n, and someone would look at your eyes. I told my wife, I said, “don’t worry, they’re not going to hurt 43 �you, they’re interested in you, and they don’t see very many blond babies”. We had a baby in Korea, and that was very interesting because we had a maid, and the maid assumed that it was her baby, and my wife and her use to fight “cat and dog” over who’s going to get that baby. She loved it, she loved the family, and she was just like another mom. The kids would come home from school and walk in there, “take shoes off, you no walk in this house with shoes on, take your shoes off”. 36:54 I would come home, “hi Mrs. Kim, bring me a beer”, you know, and she would say, “daddy’s home, daddy’s home”, and never said anything to me—she treated me like a king, and I loved it. Interviewer: What impression did you have of the South Korean military officers that you dealt with? South Korean? Outstanding, they were—they all wanted to speak English, they all worked very, very, very hard, and all of them very dedicated to their country. Interviewer: This was a period when South Korea was sort of in transition toward a more democratic kind of state, or that kind of thing. To what extent were you aware of that? Not at all, we didn’t get involved in the political thing at all. You hear about it, and the Korean counterparts would talk about it, and they tell you what’s going on downtown, and what was happening to who, and then they would say, “don’t go in this section, stay away from here”. 37:54 For one year over there, I was out at a Korean headquarters, I spent a year at a Korean headquarters, and that was very, very interesting there, because the guy that I worked for didn’t like Koreans. It took them about ten minutes to figure that out , and he told me, he said, “you’ve got, Colonel, you’ve got all the social issues, I don’t want to hang with these people”, and they basically, just shut him out of the net, but 44 �boy, I had some great, great times. They were very, very dedicated, and when a Korean officers says, ”this is where we die, North Korea come, we die here, kill me some before we go”, very dedicated, and all proficient, they’re Korean, and their culture is different. 38:54 A couple of times, the chief of staff out there, who was a graduate of the University of Kansas, him and his wife both, Park e-Doh, the Lieutenant General, the commanding General, who was a graduate of the University of Kansas, a graduate of the Army General Staff School, the Army War College, spoke fluent English, his wife had her masters from somewhere in the states, spoke fluent English until they got with their Korean counterparts, and then it was totally Korean and nothing else, but they were great people, they were great people. I was very, very happy to have worked with them, and the night before we left, we had dinner with Park e-Doh, General Park e-Doh, and his wife, and just a great guy. The chief of staff would call me, and say, “tomorrow’s holiday, American holiday?” “No, colonel, we don’t have a holiday tomorrow”, “I think maybe American have holiday tomorrow, don’t come to compound, we have Korean things to do”. 40:04 “Yes sir, I understand”, so I hang up the phone and say, “holiday tomorrow, nobody work tomorrow, Sunday”. It was always on Saturday, so they had normally discipline time, and they had to discipline soldiers, and they didn’t want us around, you know. They would shoot them or whatever it was, but it was always public, beat them—you go back on Monday and somebody would say, “three deserters, we shoot them dead”, “ok, I don’t want to know that”. It was a good tour. Interviewer: So what was your next step after that? I came back to Forces Command—I went back to Atlanta, and when I left Korea they wanted to send me to the Pentagon. I was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel, and they said 45 �I needed a tour at the Pentagon, and my wife said, “no”, and I said, “no, we're not going to the Pentagon”. 41:08 And they said, “then you’re going to retire”, and I said, “if need be”, I was right at twenty years and I said, “ if need be, I’ll retire”, so we were negotiating back and forth what I was going to do, and they called me, and they said, “alright, were going to send you to Fort Gillem, Georgia, you’re going back to the reserve components”, and I said, “ok”, and they said, “don’t ever expect another good assignment”, and I said, “I wasn’t really expecting a good assignment this time, you know”, “alright”. So, I go to Fort Gillem with a readiness group down there, and I walk in. The full Colonel was in command there, Dan Campbell, and he looked at me and he said, “Are you an aviator?” I said, “yes sir”, and he said, “What do you fly?” I said, “both fixed and rotors”, and he said, “You got any OV-1 time?” 42:05 I said, “I do”, and he said, “they have an OV-1 unit here in Georgia, and they need an advisor, do you want to be on flight status?” I said, “yes sir”, so I spent five years with that unit, on flight status, and it was a very, very rewarding time. You’re almost two years into the tour, and the commander had a heart attack and died on a track, and I was a deputy, so we did all the things, got him planted, and all that taken care of. I was working for a General Betkey, and he came down—we were in the 2nd Army together at Fort Gillem, and he walked into the office unannounced. Normally, general officers will always call and say, “hey were coming, we’ll be in your area”. 42:59 He walked in unannounced, and the secretary said, “General Betkey what are you...?” And he said, “Where’s Hudson? I want to see Gabe”. “Well, he’s back in his office”, and he said, “Why isn’t he in this office? He’s the commander and he should be in that office there”. He was very loud, a very loud—he was a good man, a Major General, so he comes walking down the hall, 46 �“Hudson, where the hell is Hudson?” So, I stuck my head out and said, “General, what are you doing—why didn’t you call?” He said, “I don’t need to call, I’m a General. What are you doing down here?” I said, “I’m doing my work”, and he said, “listen, I want to talk to you, let’s go up to the office”, so we walk into the commanders office, and he sits down at the desk, and I pulled up a chair, and got him some coffee. He said, “you did a good job putting Dan in the ground, excellent, excellent job. You really like this don’t you?” I said, “Like this?” And he said, “like being the commander”, and I said, “absolutely, sir”. 44:03 He said, “ You know, it’s an O-6 position, and were going to start looking for one, and in the meantime take acting off of that commander, and we’ll let you know”, so I had it for a year, they gave me a year, and I was in “hog heaven”, I was commander, and still flying. A commander called and said they needed a helicopter to go visit a unit, and we said, “whatever you need, sir”, and he said, “we need a crew too”, and we said, “whatever you need”, so it was a great tour. Interviewer: You did that for a year, and after that were you back to second in command again? Yes, I went back to second in command for a year, and then I had an eye problem, and I lost part of this right eye, and lost my flying seat, so I was supposed to go to Turkey, and take an aviation unit over there. 45:01 Well, I had a medical problem, and I also had a bunch of kids, so they said, “we can’t take you, or we can’t take the kids, and we can’t take you at all”, so they gave me a battalion at Forces Command, and I became a battalion commander with a security battalion at Forces Command. We took care of special intelligence, and I did that until I retired. 1993, it was—we went through the Gulf War, it wasn’t fun, and not being able to fly anymore. 47 �Interviewer: So, what were you doing while the Gulf War was going on? We were working with special intelligence, and it was our job as a security battalion commander, I had something like thirty-seven different detachments, and our job was to secure special intelligence. Interviewer: Where was that? Was that everywhere” We were all over CONUS, we had one in Panama, and one in Alaska, we had a detachment, and we were headquarters out of Forces Command. 46:02 Interviewer: Where is that? In Atlanta, at Fort McPherson, we stayed right there, so the kids—to the younger kids, that was home. We lived in Atlanta for about eight years. “This is home, I don’t remember moving, this is home”. Then in 1993 I just said, “I know I’m never going to get promoted, I’ve got an eye problem, I’m getting out”. I retired, and we retired for—I had two jobs, and I was working for the state of Georgia, and then Ken Scott from here in Grand Rapids called me, and said, “I got a job opening as a ROTC instructor, do you want to do that?” I said, “What does it pay?” He said, “not much”, and I said, “How are the hours?” He said, “not good”, and I said, “When are you interviewing?” 47:05 He said, “Thursday”, and I said, “Are you paying for the ticket?” He said, “no”, so I called the wife, and I said, “What do you think?” She said, “well, if we get to go back to Michigan”, and I had a mother here, my mom was still alive, and I had a brother who was over in the Detroit area, and he was sick, he had cancer, and I said, “let’s do it”, so I flew up, and was here fifteen minutes or so in the interview, and they offered me the job, and I said, “yeah, I’ll come back to Grand Rapids”, and it was a very rewarding time. Regardless of what they say on the news about Union High School right now, we had a 48 �good program over there. We did a lot for the school, a lot for kids that were in my program. About fifteen, sixteen hundred of them went through my program the thirteen years that I was there. Interviewer: What did the ROTC do for them, and what did the kids get out of it generally? 47:57 Leadership, citizenship, kids got to do—kids who couldn’t be a jock because they were too small, or they’re—they just didn’t want to be a jock or something, but they learned a little bit of leadership skills, you give them a project to do and, “hey man”, and they do one or two of those little things, and we competed. We had some drill teams, and we competed in a three or four state area here. Of course, they took their competition very, very seriously, and then we took all of our military duties. Whenever we moved the colors or anything like that, it was very meaning, and we did a lot of volunteer work for the school. The principal would call and say, “I need this done”, and we always said, “yes”. Interviewer: Did it sort of encourage the students to stay in school, and finish, and go on from there? A couple of them it did, sometimes it didn’t have a great effect. We weren’t recruiters, we couldn’t teach tactics, or anything like that, but I’ve still got probably ten students that are in the military, that e-mail me, and I got two in Iraq right now. 49:10 Interviewer: Just in terms of encouraging them to just finish school, and actually graduate, and that kind of thing? A couple of them, yes, but you don’t touch everybody, you don’t touch everybody, but if you get two or three a year that you can change around. One kid came in there one time, 49 �and he had a couple of piercing, like one of these “metal” freaks that you see, and by mid year, he had gotten rid of all his piercing, had gotten a real good haircut, and he was—“I want to do it, this is fun, Colonel, this is fun, and I feel important”, and I said, “hey, have at it”. Interviewer: Your wife followed you through this extended military career, and all these moves and changes etc, in a basic level, what did she think of our army life, or military life? How did she respond to it? 50:07 She hated it—a lot of traditions she didn’t, she did not like to follow the traditions. “I’m not putting on white gloves to go visit the battalion commander”. “Yes you are honey”. “Ok”. She was an excellent military wife, absolutely superb. I don’t know if I told you this the last time or not, but for twenty-seven years, airplanes, mission, and then came family, and my career was in there too, and that was all-and now we’re trying to make up on that. She understood that, the kids understood that, and I’m not particularly proud of that, but that’s the way it was. She was one hundred percent supportive of anything I ever wanted to do. 51:01 Interviewer: How much of the tradition sort of stuff did she actually have to deal with? Was that mostly early in your career? Early, earlier in my career, and once I became a battalion commander, and things, we didn’t do a lot of those things. We were always kind of laid back. We had a house with a nice pool, and you invited everybody over. “We’re going to have the pool, well have some beers, we’ll throw some burgers and brats on the grill, we’re going to relax. We’re not here for white gloves and hats”. Early in the career, during Vietnam, we got invited to a thing on New Year's day, at Fort Lewis, and we arrived, and the Mrs. opened the 50 �door and said, “There are some very important guests here right now, so just wait outside”, and it was raining. We were probably there ten minutes, and she opened the door and said, “Come in, see the colonel, and leave. Don’t eat anything because we have very important people coming later”, and I said, “Yes ma'am”. 52:06 As we were leaving she said, “I’ll never do that again”. She was drenched, and one couple went home. He had some very choice words, and he turned around and went home. Interviewer: Another thing, somewhere in the course— near the end of your career, you worked with Colin Powell? He was, he was—yes, Colin Powell was CinC Forces commander, commander in chief, forces command, and he came down to forces command. Just a superb man, a superb man, regardless of his politics, you know. One thing about Colin Powell, he had a 1967 Dart, that’s what he drove, and his first day on the job, he drove that, drove it over to forces command. 53:04 He was one to get to work fairly early, and he parked his Dart, and went upstairs to go to work. The M.P.’s that were out in front of the building, you know, were saying, “Whose car, whose car?” And they towed it away. Powell looked around and said, “Where’s my car?” “What kind of a car was it sir?” “A 1967 Dart”, and they said, “oh God, we towed it away”. Powell, he was—he’d get in the elevator, and other command staff, the commanders, they all had their own elevators, you know the important VIP elevator, two or three times a week he would just get on board with us, and say, “Good morning guys, how are you all doing today?” He was just very, very, personable, and very easy to talk to, and he was a great guy, a great guy. 54:00 Interviewer: Now, we’ve covered quite a bit of material, and had it for the better part of two hours, and we’ve done pretty well here, and hey, tape is cheap. I’m not 51 �here to think for BCTV, but that’s the basic rule on this. Now, if you look back on the course of your military career, I guess first of all—are there particular episodes, or things that kind of stand out in your mind about that, that we managed to leave out of the story at this point? Whether it was in Vietnam or in the states, or other stuff that would be good to get on the record? You could talk for three days, four days because there’s—I know when I get home I’ll say, “jeez, I should have done this, I should have done that”. There are a lot of very, very personal things that I don’t share, and I probably should someday, but I don’t. It was just—my time that I spent with the U.S. Army was all very, very rewarding. I never asked for the moon. 55:03 I always asked for a job rather than a location, and the people that I worked with, the people I worked for, and the people that worked for me, were all outstanding people. There was—well, one or two along the way, but across the board, outstanding, outstanding American citizens. Hard working, dedicated, with one thing in mind, you know, we’re here to protect the country, and at any time we could have been called upon, you know, “call in the check, we’re going to cash your check”, you know, up to, and including, one life for the country, because every vet wrote that check, and I was just very, very glad, and very happy to serve, and I had an excellent time doing it, it was fun. 56:03 I really was fun. Interviewer: do you see a different attitude, in this country, these days toward people in the service, as opposed to back in the Vietnam era? Oh absolutely, absolutely, you know when you come through an airport now, or something, and five or six service men get off of an airplane, it’s not unusual to have a bunch of people stand up and applaud them, you know. You see one serviceman get on 52 �an airplane and the captain will say, “move him to first class”, “move that guy to first class”. It’s a lot different than the Vietnam days, and I’m glad of that. You tell people now, “What did you do?” “Spent some time in the military”, and they say, “thank you for your service”, and you don’t know how much that means. It really helps you right there in the heart when somebody says, “thank you for your service”. 57:06 “Were you ever in Vietnam?” “Yes sir, I was”, and they say, “thank you”, and I think, “Where the hell were you thirty or forty years ago, you know”. Interviewer: Sometimes we learn something from history. Yes, and it’s so great for the military to have that change in attitude. People deployed overseas now, and you’ve got these people sending them pillows and bears, and sending them treats, and things like that. It’s really, really great. Interviewer: I think that makes a pretty good note to close on, and I want to thank you for coming in and talking with me today. Again, my pleasure, I totally enjoyed it. 57:44 53 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hudson, Gabriel (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hudson, Gabriel Description An account of the resource Born in Sturgis, Michigan in 1942, Gabe Hudson joined the U.S. Army in 1967 following several years of college. After completing training as a photo interpreter, Hudson deployed to Vietnam served with 101st Airborne Division for fifteen months. After returning to the United States, Hudson continued in the military, training with the OV-1 reconnaissance aircraft. Once he completed that training, Hudson redeployed to Vietnam for another fifteen months and was on the last flight of American troops out of Da Nang. Following Vietnam, Hudson served at a variety of different posts, including in Korea and several throughout the United States before finally retiring after twenty-seven years of service. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-09 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HudsonG Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99bd3032b6fd6bab3b14d7be368ede04.mp4 728784ffce5e762efdbf2fb9ddb5aff6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e2c5d895a29aa14f6912c331a658c89.pdf 11191d7be5ef4da6aa09a45055ead003 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Ron Hudson Vietnam War Time: 1:50:42 (00:00:21) Early Life -Born in Three Rivers, Michigan on February 8, 1950 -Father was a commercial pilot -Had flown a bomber in WWII -Mother had grown up in Texas -Met Hudson’s father there during WWII -Moved up to Michigan after the war -Has two older siblings -Sherry Anne Hudson -C. Gilbert Hudson -Grew up in Sturgis, Michigan -Went to high school there -Wrestled, played football, and played baseball -Graduated in 1969 (00:03:15) Pre-enlisting and Enlisting -Knew a lot about Vietnam -Father followed it very closely -All the neighborhood men had served in WWII or Korea, so they followed the war -Father had arranged for him (Ron) to get a pilot’s license -Looked for jobs within the military that involved piloting -All branches needed a college degree -Army did not need a college degree -Enlisted in the Army for Warrant Officer Flight School -Enlisted in February or March of 1969 -Told to report for duty on August 20, 1969 (00:07:15) Fort Polk, Louisiana for Basic Training -Alpha 3-1 training company -Not very grueling training, but it was aggressive -Had “Tigerland” training course -Good basic training -Almost all of the drill sergeants were from Vietnam -His had been with the 173rd Airborne Brigade and seen extensive combat in 1965-66 -Discipline, team effort, and weapons qualifications were stressed -A wide array of people were there -Some were from the country; others were from the city, National Guardsmen as well -Spent ten weeks there, eight of which was dedicated to actual training �(00:11:35) Fort Walters, Texas -Assigned to Fort Walters, Texas -Given thirteen day delayed route -Made destination: Michigan -Spent time with his fiancée from high school -Time went by very quickly -Went to Fort Walters for primary helicopter training -It was meant to be 6-8 weeks of training -Given snowbird status: too many troops to be trained -Never actually got into a training helicopter -Army strongly encouraged people to go into infantry -Specifically infantry officer training -Opted out of that -At least a few companies worth of soldiers left in waiting -Mandatory physicals were done to thin the numbers of prospective pilots -Warrant officer training -Conducted by graduated, not yet warranted, officers -Had to “pre-flight” uniforms the night before -Part of discipline -Deemed physically unfit to fly due to a perforated eardrum -Took part in multiple interviews -Officers wanted him to go into officer training -Declined again -Had to pick a new MOS -Wanted to go into computers -Picked a computer related MOS: 13 Echo 20 (00:20:15) Fort Sill, Oklahoma -Deployed to Fort Sill, Oklahoma -Learned that 13 Echo 20 is Field Artillery and Intelligence Assistance -Computers are involved, but not the primary focus -Learned how to conduct recon, calculate firing data, and engage in fire exercises -Lots of classroom instruction -Heavily mathematic focused on geometry Finally told they would be given two days of orientation with FADAC -Field Artillery Digital Analytic Computer -Roughly the size of a stereo -Came inside a big, plastic box -It was essentially a giant graphing calculator -Could do automatically what they had been taught to do manually -Plot the target, determine elevation -Manually involved the use of instruments and a map with a grid -Spent eight weeks at Fort Sill plus a Christmas break -One of the best Christmases that he can remember �(00:27:45) Deployment -Went back to Fort Sill to graduate -Sent to Oakland to get ready to go to Vietnam -Did not know where he was being sent specifically in Vietnam -Only knew that he was being sent to Long Binh -Given less than two weeks to report to Oakland -Father flew with him to San Francisco -Drove him to Oakland Army Terminal -Mother was not present (parents had divorced early on in life) -Doesn’t believe that she understood the gravity of the situation -Flew commercially to get to Vietnam -It was a long flight -Stopped in Hawaii then Wake Island, then Japan before Vietnam (00:39:35) Arrival in Vietnam -Opened the door and was blasted by the heat, humidity, and smell -Placed on buses -Taken up to Long Binh -In Long Binh they assembled in a gravel parking lot -Assigned to numbered poles for organization purposes -Mostly free rein on the base -Stayed there longer than most did -After four days his group was called into formation and given their assignment -He was being sent to Dong Ha -Located just below the demilitarized zone -Took four days to get there (00:47:30) Dong Ha and LZ Nancy -Attached to the 108th Artillery Group supporting 24th Corps -Specifically assigned to HQ Company 1st Battalion 39th Field Artillery -Taken to LZ Nancy on a small truck -Past Quang Tri City -Went down a dirt road about one kilometer -LZ Nancy -Not a very large base -Heavily fortified artillery -Given the task of being a clerk for a few days -LZ had four guns to a battery: 8 inch howitzers and 175 millimeter howitzers -Also had a M577 command vehicle (00:51:23) Attack on April 13 -At 2:30 in the morning on April 13th LZ Nancy was attacked by NVA sappers -Grabbed essentials (rifle, helmet, flak jacket, and boots without socks) -Ran outside and saw a hut explode in front of him -Thrown ten feet -Ran to a designated bunker -Decided that the bunker was not safe and laid behind the dirt mound that covered it -Assault lasted until 7:00 AM -Was picked up by an officer to clear headquarters of sappers �-Identified three sappers -One was captured and the other two were killed -After the fighting he was tasked with putting dead NVA in cargo nets (00:59:04) General Zais Arrives -After the fighting on the 13th General Zais showed up to survey things -Three star general commanding 24th Corps -Basically ignores the officers and talks with the infantry -Asks if they have any requests -One soldier asks for a PX (military store), hadn’t seen one in 6 months -Four to six hours later a CH47 Chinook lands -Temporary PX was made with fifty five gallon drums and a cash register -Loaded with candy, soda, etc. -Soldiers were mostly allowed to take what they wanted in that case -Stayed on LZ Nancy until the 28th of April (01:04:10) Camp Evans -Went from LZ Nancy to Camp Evans -Massive base in the north -Battery was located on the southwest portion of perimeter -Given M79 grenade launcher and a .45 pistol and assigned to M577 communications vehicle -Worked as a chart operator -Pulled twelve hour shifts -Told he would be the first up to be RTO (radio telephone operator) for forward observers -Got comfortable with call signs, long shifts, various codes, securing communications -Conducted raids -Cross open plain to the jungle line with artillery and ammo to Firebase Jack -Provide added range for support in the jungle -8 inch gun: 10 mile range for pinpoint support (accurate) -175mm gun: 18 mile range for harassment (inaccurate) -Went out with a Lieutenant Drennen to be a forward observer -Originally went out as RTO -Helped with adjusting a myriad of other batteries (01:11:03) Firebase Rakkasan -In May was told they would be sent to Firebase Rakkasan -Inaccessible due to jungle -Airborne firebase -Had to cut a road deep into the jungle to reach them -Extremely vulnerable -Only five miles from Firebase Ripcord -Desperately needed artillery support -Had to manually carry shells to the guns -He carried powder canisters because they were lighter and more humanly possible to carry -Fired all serious missions from Firebase Rakkasan -Was concerned they would be targeted after the NVA was through with Ripcord -Created bunkers and dug in as best as they could �(1:19:00) Pulling out of Firebase Ripcord -Helped with the retreat from Firebase Ripcord -Was acting as station chief at the time -Had to conduct a TOT (time on target) mission -Mask the fire of other units with your own fire and hope for a synchronized strike -Needed clearance from everyone at Ripcord before it was safe to fire -Filled an 8.5 x 11 in piece of paper with call sign initials approving clearance -Gave the order of Tango Oscar Tango: All batteries clear to fire at their appropriate time -Had to stay in FDC (fire direction center) during initial barrage -Was able to go out and see Firebase Ripcord engulfed in flames afterward -Kept barrage going until the B-52 bombers arrived -Most likely were able to wipe out two battalions of NVA troops (01:24:39) R&R and a Wedding in Hawaii -Was granted leave after Ripcord -Went to Hawaii and wanted to meet fiancée there -She was not allowed to go because her religious parents didn’t approve -Asked to marry her -She agreed and planned to meet him in Hawaii -Got married in Hawaii -Only together for a week (Tapes are changed at (01:27:10) story of wedding picks up again at (01:27:50)) -Got married in Fort DeRussy Army Chapel -Last remaining structure from base today -Remembers meeting her at R&R center -Went from orderly to chaotic as families reunited -At first they didn’t recognize each other -He had lost weight, gotten tan, and grown a moustache -She had cut her hair and had lost weight (01:32:35) Camp JJ Carroll -Returned to duty after leave -Battery had been relocated to Camp JJ Carroll -Far western part of Quang Tri Province -A few kilometers south of the DMZ -Had to support the 1st Brigade, 5th Mechanized Infantry -Engaged in artillery duels with the NVA -Had missions to fire into the A Shau Valley and the Ho Chi Minh Trail -Would split off guns to support other groups -FDC remained stationary -Had to document fire missions with clearance from forward observers and commanders -One type was “political clearance” -Usually got “negative clearance” from these -Usually took the longest to receive clearance from (15-20 minutes) -Left them vulnerable and unable to return fire -First experience with “political clearance” was at Camp JJ Carroll �(01:40:05) More on the DMZ -Spent the rest of his tour on the DMZ -Supported South Vietnam’s invasion of Laos during Lam Son 719 -Went up to old Khe Sanh base for increased range with the 1st and 5th Mechanized - Worked with two APC’s (armored personnel carriers) and a platoon of troops for security -Artillery raids were either very short or very long -Half a day to five days -Operational involvement was eight weeks (01:44:25) Leaving the DMZ -From Camp JJ Carroll was sent back to LZ Nancy -Monsoons had made roads ineffective for moving artillery -Troops on Firebase Barbara needed to be cycled out -Took essential gear and flew out to Firebase Barbara to relieve the troops there -Firebase Barbara was always in cloud cover due to its 800 meters of elevation -Last station of duty in Vietnam (01:46:50) Leaving Vietnam and Coming Home -Left Vietnam in March 1971 -Went to Cam Ranh Bay to depart for the United States -Went from there to Japan, then to Hawaii, then to San Francisco -Was processed in Oakland, California -Released from active duty there -Went to college on the GI Bill -Got a degree in public finance and administration from Ferris College -Relocated to Virginia because of stagnant economy -Worked in local government and banking (01:49:15) National Guard Reserve -Went into the National Guard Reserve -Became a 2nd Lieutenant -Served twenty seven years of active duty -Called up for duty in Desert Storm -Given command of a battery -Didn’t even leave Fort Bragg before the war was over -Told young soldiers who were disappointed it was a good thing � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hudson, Ronald (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hudson, Ronald Description An account of the resource Ron Hudson was born in Three Rivers, Michigan in 1950. In the spring of 1969 he enlisted in the Army and after training in Fort Polk, Fort Walters, and Fort Sill he became a field artillery specialist. He was attached to the HQ Company 1st Battalion 39th Field Artillery which was a part of the 108th Artillery Group 24th Corps. He conducted fire missions predominantly on the DMZ and his unit helped provide covering fire during the pullout from Firebase Ripcord. After getting married to his high school sweetheart in Hawaii and finishing his tour in 1971 he returned to Michigan for college at Ferris, relocated to Virginia, and eventually served with the National Guard Reserve for twenty seven years up to and including Operation Desert Storm. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-10 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HudsonR1537V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e281e3846623774bdbe1cbe612c32c8a.mp4 bce4286b3a75828efcb7323ab5663aac https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6636b9988bb5308e269590f8073fa836.pdf 451062c7ef8642ab7076ed064afe3ae9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Korean War Octavio Huerta Interview Total Time: (45:42) Background  (00:09) Born in Crystal City, Texas in 1931 o Lived here until he was almost six o Accidentally found a cigar box full of money, gave it to parents o They used the money to get to Michigan o They heard that Michigan residents were making money  (1:23) Went to school o Potter’s Street School  (1:59) Remembers one winter they went to school out in the country o Parents couldn’t afford to go back to the city after summer  (2:45) Remembers a teacher telling him to answer when she calls him “Tommy” o Was confused by this o In 2nd grade when this happened  (3:19) Moved to Saginaw, Michigan, the year after  (4:10) Remembers that other teenagers his age enjoyed hanging out with him because of his spirituality o Contributed to his choice to not drink or do drugs o They made a baseball team  (6:10) Says the white kids didn’t ever pick on him in school, but black kids did o Mr. Huerta said he always won fights o Word got around “not to pick on Tom” o This was just because he enjoyed boxing, not anything serious  (7:45) Was three weeks into the 10th grade, he wanted to quit school o Graduated early  (8:10) Mr. Huerta got a job at a co-op supermarket  (10:58) Eventually got another job that he really wanted  (17:49) Eventually got his own office at this job Drafted  (19:07) Got married, and got his draft notice in the mail shortly after  (19:20) Had to go to Detroit for a physical  (19:47) He and all the others were lined up and had to undress � (20:08) Remembers that his blood pressure was high because he was very nervous o He didn’t pass because of this o A couple months later was called back and passed the second time o Was drafted into the Army Training  (20:40) Told that he would be sent to Ft. Knox, Kentucky  (21:20) Taught how to use many different guns  (21:40) Remembers being the only Mexican in his company – which was large sized o This put pressure on him to do very well because he wanted others to think well of Mexicans  (22:11) There were inspections often  (23:45) Mr. Huerta and some other guys were asked if they wanted to go to a more specialized military training course o This lasted a few months o They were taught to train other soldiers  (24:37) Eventually asked to go to reconnaissance military training o Here, they learned how to get behind enemy territory and how to find out where the enemy was, what they had, etc. o Felt good about receiving this diploma and the other one  (25:52) Had to wait for orders  (26:11) Told the guy in charge of mail that next time he got orders to send someone to Korea, etc. to replace his name with Mr. Huerta Shipped to Korea  (27:09) Remembers how huge the ship was with all the equipment o Canadians were with them as well o 13 days to cross the ocean o Never got seasick, but saw many others get seasick  (27:51) Had to wait to receive orders o While waiting, made some friends and played baseball  (29:18) Got assigned to be a mechanic  (29:29) He and the others got five tanks to take care of o Had to change oil, spark plugs, grease it, oil it, etc o Had to learn how to tighten the tracks  (30:55) Remembers once that the last tank stopped at the gate o Didn’t make it because a belt was thrown, had to be replaced  (31:22) Enjoyed being in the service; learned a lot about working with people �          (31:35) About three times in the military he was supposed to get a stripe, but didn’t receive it o This was because of prejudice against Mexicans o Tried not to let it bother him, Mr. Huerta went above and beyond expectations because of this (33:14) Mr. Huerta and a group of guys cleaned a ping-pong table and played with it (34:30) Remembers the food being very good (35:40) The highest rank Mr. Huerta received was Private First Class (37:50) Remembers during the next inspection, his platoon passed everything with flying colors (38:20) Recalls another man earning a stripe that was supposed to go to Mr. Huerta (39:00) At one point, got a jeep with a driver and a gunner o Had a black driver and a white gunner o Mr. Huerta was the chief o These three men got along very well (40:15) They once had a break and went to Kobe, Japan o Big hotel – everyone got their own room, free food, etc. o The food was excellent o Lots of places to shop, etc. o Here for about a week (42:14) Mr. Huerta says that he wanted to come home at this point because his wife just had a baby o If he hadn’t been married, Mr. Huerta would have stayed and had a military career (44:45) Proud of military service; learned a lot o Found it very enjoyable � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Huerta, Octavio (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Huerta, Octavio Description An account of the resource Octavio Huerta was born in 1931 in Crystal City, Texas. His family eventually moved to Michigan to find work. After graduating from high school early, Mr. Huerta worked for a couple of years before getting drafted into the Army during the Korean War. He received training at Ft. Knox, Kentucky, and did well enough to stay on for reconnaissance training. He volunteered for duty in Korea, and when he got there, he was assigned as a mechanic for a tank platoon. Despite encountering prejudice that kept him from receiving promotion, he found his military experience to be very enjoyable. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Short, Mike (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-02-21 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HuertaO1208V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/911d0ad556cf6140e1bf015c44b0d375.pdf 6e05c579dfb1767be70f4aee018b6c16 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Erica Huggins Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/13/2013 Runtime: 01:24:45 Biography and Description Oral history of Erica Huggins, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on March 13, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMINEZ: Okay, Ericka, if you could give me your name and where you were born and that? ERICKA HUGGINS: I’m Ericka Huggins. I was born Ericka Cozette Jenkins. I was born in Washington D.C. on January 5, 1948. JJ: (inaudible) Now it’s taping. It wasn’t taping. Okay, so go ahead. EH: I have three children. My oldest is my daughter, who is also the daughter of John Huggins, who was assassinated on January 17, 1969 by the FBI COINTELPRO. My older son is also the son of James Mott, one of the Lumpen, the Black Panther Party’s revolutionary singing group. And my younger son is too young to have been [00:01:00] anywhere near anybody connected with the Black Panther Party, he’s twenty-five, and he is a poet and a teacher, and very much a revolutionary from his heart outward. So, I really dedicate this interview to them. JJ: Thank you, that’s good. Now you mentioned John Huggins. Can you describe -I know he was in Los Angeles; can you describe who he is? EH: Well John Huggins was born in New Haven, Connecticut and we met at -- John and I met at Lincoln University in Pennsylvania, about an hour outside of Philly. He had left the Navy and was coming back to college and I was in college [00:02:00] thinking about why I was there. Long story short, we both read about the Black Panther Party for Self Defense, that was its original name, and we decided to leave that college campus and drive across country to become a part of the Huey Newton Defense Committee and to join the Black Panther Party. 1 �And so we did. So at the end of 1968 -- no, at the end of 1967 we joined the Party, and we spent a year working with the Los Angeles chapter of the party. We visited the Oakland headquarters a few times. Our daughter was born on December 27 [00:03:00] and she was three weeks old when he was killed. He was a very compassionate man. And I think I want to say that the Black Panther Party drew lots of compassionate and kind people to it. Of course, though, we were median age nineteen or twenty, so there was a way in which we knew exactly what we were doing, and there was a way in which we didn’t know the consequences of what we were doing. We were just brave and ignorant at the same time. But John taught me a lot about serving people because his courage preceded him wherever he went. He wasn’t just courageous when it came to [00:04:00] standing up to and telling truth to power, he was also courageous in his relationships with people, and cared about people in a really deep way. So that’s who he was. He came from a family of people who worked at Yale. They were not faculty or professors, but they worked at Yale, and they were a part of a long-standing New Haven Black community. JJ: Okay, now, you say he was strong with people and courageous, but what was the conversation? Why all of the sudden you decided to go to the Black Panther Party? EH: Yes. I read Ramparts magazine and saw the picture of Huey Newton strapped to a hospital gurney with a bullet wound in his belly. And I decided that I was going to leave Lincoln University and join the Black Panther Party. And I asked John if he was coming, we were friends, and he said, “Yes.” You’re going to pause it? I 2 �think this is -- (break in recording) So my parents were similar in a way to John Huggins parents, and completely different. By that I mean that my mother was raised on a farm one of the two oldest of eleven children. They were very poor. And she finished [00:06:00] part of high school before she left the farm to come to Washington D.C. to kind of make it. She wanted a different life for herself. She met my father as she was continuing high school to get a GED -- she met my father who was just finished the eighth grade. He refused to complete high school. And she says that she fell in love with him because he was so handsome and she knew that they would make beautiful children. I was like, “Mama, that’s not a good reason to be with anybody,” because my father -- I’ll tell you in a minute more about my father. [00:07:00] My father was born and raised in Washington D.C. in a very -- not wealthy or prominent Black family, but a wellknown Black family in Washington D.C. in Northwest, near Howard University. But all of them worked government jobs. And I was telling you earlier that the Huggins’s worked at Yale all of their career, but it wasn’t at a faculty level or in education, it was serving the faculty and serving the students, both in the Yale Men’s Club, Mr. Huggins worked there, and Mrs. Huggins in the Yale library. The similarity between both our [00:08:00] parents is that both of our parents were very interested in their children having education. And the other similarity is that both sets of parents had very rebellious children. So John and I were drawn to each other because we had a similar outlook on the world. We both really cared about people and we knew that there was something wrong, there were inequities, there was an imbalance. Actually, John left the Navy before his time 3 �was up, and one of the things that was prompting him to leave is that while he was on the ship, the four little girls who were killed in the church in Birmingham, and he was in the Philippines at the time, and felt, “What the hell am I doing here? [00:09:00] I should be at home; there’s a war at home.” So by the time we met at Lincoln University, we were both thinking about freedom for Black people and other people of color in a very strong way. And I think that that’s important to know about John and I because in both instances we could see the history of Black people in the United States was the most horrific and long-standing, that so many groups of people were suffering abuse at the hands of the United States government. So, my parents encouraged me to look out for my people. My mother told me that almost every day. And as a result of that, I went to the March on Washington when I was fifteen [00:10:00] years old. By myself. And it transformed my young life. It was there at the March on Washington that I decided to serve people for the rest of my life. JJ: What did you see? EH: What I saw was thousands and thousands of Black people. I’d never seen that except when people gathered for a concert or a church conference or because something had happened. This was the best gathering of people I’d ever witness and the most diverse. People of all classes, all ages. I would say every kind of person gathered that day. And there were Latinos and Latinas there, but not very many. [00:11:00] This was 1963. There were White students there. I assumed them to be students because they were older than me but not functioning in any leadership capacity in the movement that I could tell. They 4 �seemed to be college students who came together to be there. And there were older White movement people. But it was very Black and White. I remember that distinctly because when I look back on it, where I live in California it’s not Black and White at all. Nothing is Black and White in our world actually. But it was that way then. And I think it needed to be because of the history of enslaved Africans in this country. [00:12:00] So I’m standing there with my fifteen-year-old self, by myself, looking out at the sea of people, and I found this mound of dirt kind of like the mound of dirt out there in the construction area, out of our beautiful window. And I stood on the top of that mound of dirt so that I could see all the people gathered. And I could also see their transportation. People came in pick-up trucks that looked like my grandfather’s truck that he took tobacco to sell. They came in church buses. They came in vans. They came in rickety station wagons and hoopty cars. They came on foot because many people marched to get there from parts of the metropolitan area of D.C. [00:13:00] There were people on bicycles. There were people on motorcycles, groups of people on motorcycles. There were just all kinds of people. And then there were the speakers. JJ: How did you find out about it? EH: It was the talk of the city. I don’t remember watching the news, I don’t remember hearing it on the radio, but I know that it was the talk of the city, and my mother was talking about it. And I don’t remember friends at school talking about it. I was very singular in that way. My peers did not seem interested. I’ve reflected a lot on why I went by myself that day. I’m glad I did because I was meant to 5 �experience this inner commitment that I experienced that day. [00:14:00] My mother talked -- when I asked her about the March on Washington and what it was for, after she explained that it was happening, she told me that Black people were gathering together to put -- to make everyone aware that, as she called us, Negros couldn’t be treated in the awful way that they’d been treated for hundreds of years, and that it had to stop. No more Jim Crow. And I knew what she meant. Although I wasn’t learning much about history in school, I learned a lot from my mother. Not details, not dates, not names, but the flow of history. Because she grew up in a very violently segregated South with the Ku Klux Klan absolutely active. So she was my [00:15:00] go-to about the Negro people. JJ: What do you mean, she saw them, the Ku Klux Klan? EH: Oh yeah. They burned crosses on peoples’ lawns, they shot up peoples’ houses, they were crazy. You know, my mother’s 94 and there are times -- there have been times in her life when she was in her 80s. She has no short-term memory anymore, so she’s absolutely happy, doesn’t remember the horrible things, but she was afraid to look a White person in the eye because of her training. She was so proud that I could hang out with everybody and that I wasn’t afraid of anyone. She taught me not to be afraid and to stand up. But I didn’t realize until I talked to her later in [00:16:00] my life that her let’s say socialization, her social training was such that you whispered around White people. You didn’t have to ask their permission anymore, but there was a subtle way in which she always did. But she really wanted life different for her children and her grandchildren, and I think that life is different. So when I had questions, and I always had lots of 6 �them, “Why did the people on Capitol Hill live with such wealth, and why did the people in South East live in such conditions of poverty? Why are there housing projects? Why is it that people have to sleep in their cars? Why is that the White House is so big and beautiful?” I remember asking her one day, “Can’t some of the people from the housing projects [00:17:00] live in the White House? They’ve got lots of space.” But I didn’t understand how it all worked, and she helped me to understand that no, Ericka, Negros can’t live in the White House. And so, of course, when Barack Obama became president, she was absolutely convinced that 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue would never be the same again. There was nothing in her history or in her present experience that would lead her to believe that an African American man could become President of the United States. She did her best with her limited knowledge to let me know that there was a way that I could help to change things. She said, “You’re smart. You ask a lot of questions. You keep [00:18:00] asking those questions, maybe we’ll get some answers.” And so when I went to her to say, “Okay, I’m going to the March on Washington.” And she said, “No, you’re not.” I said, “Yes, I am. I’m getting right on the bus. I’m going to go. It’s just two buses away.” She said, “No, something could happen to you.” I said, “Something could happen to me anywhere.” I said, “You’re the one who told me I should help the Negro people.” Maybe she said colored people. (laughs) I can’t remember. Both of those terms were annoying to me. She said, “Yes, I asked you help them, but I didn’t ask you to put yourself out there in front. Not you. Not my daughter. Go ask your father.” And I told him I was going, I didn’t ask him, and that was really different 7 �because I had to always ask my father’s [00:19:00] permission for any and everything. I just told him I was going. I had such conviction about it. I know now why I did. It was where I was meant to be on that day in that time in my life. And so against my parents’ wishes -- my father didn’t want me to go either -- I went. I got on the bus, I asked if I could take my brother and sister, who were younger than me, and they said no, and I said, “I’ll be back. I’ll be fine. I know the bus route.” And what I didn’t say is how many police were out there that day. And because of where I grew up, I was used to the police, sort of like, it was occupied territory where I lived in Southeast Washington. So I was used to seeing the police around, but this was a new way of seeing them. I knew that they were there not to protect the people who were gathered, but in case [00:20:00] the people who had gathered were going to do something to harm property, D.C., I don’t know, I couldn’t figure it out. I didn’t have any systemic understanding at that time, although I had some ideas. So I listened to all of the speeches, and there were many of them, and I can’t really remember the speeches. But there is one thing that I do remember and it kind of locked -- it gelled for me the sense that I must serve people. Two of my favorite people, because they were always on TV, and I also knew from my mother that they always spoke up on behalf of Black people and people of color in general, Harry Belafonte, and Lena Horne were there, and they both spoke. I don’t remember except that they were -- [00:21:00] I just loved them. I loved seeing them there. I loved seeing “stars,” as my mother called them, standing up for Black people. That just did something for me. More than all of the movement leaders, these 8 �two stood out to me. And the most poignant moment for me was Lena Horne said some words, I don’t remember what they were, but then she sung the word, “Freedom.” She just sung it. And the word took so long to exit her being and into the air and people became really quiet as it landed on their ears, and of course it entered my heart. Just that word: “Freedom.” And it was right at that moment of the word ringing out like that, that I said, “This is it. This is [00:22:00] what I have to do. I have to fight for freedom.” And little did I know what form it would take and what challenges I would face. JJ: What about your dad? EH: Oh yeah, I said I was going to tell you more. So my father was a Washingtonian. Very handsome, just like my mother said. Very brilliant. But he’d given up on life after World War -- during World War II when he was in the Army he started to drink and came back from the war an alcoholic. He was an abusive alcoholic. So when I say that I had to ask his permission for everything, I really meant it, because I never knew which way was up. [00:23:00] He wasn’t the kind of alcoholic who would drink and then fall asleep. He beat me, he beat my mother, we broke up fights. My sister, my brother, and I broke up fights between the two of them. That’s how it was. We didn’t think it was normal for families to live like that, but we didn’t feel like we had any ability to change it. And that was another thing that prompted me -- there were two prompts that come out of living with my father. One was I don’t want to be like my father. I don’t want to be an alcoholic is what I mean. I wanted to be an artist like him. I wanted to be able to open my mouth and sing like he could. I found out after he died that he was a poet also, 9 �and I’m a poet. [00:24:00] I didn’t want to abuse my children or whoever I loved. And I think I already knew by that time that I loved both -- that I could fall in love with both men and women. That wasn’t something that I could share with my Christian mother and my unpredictable father. But I also knew that I didn’t want to give up on life. That I wanted to -- if I was challenged, I wanted to meet the challenge, face it head-on, and then move through it. So, this is important to know because later, after John was killed -- he never got to meet John. My mother didn’t meet John either, which is sad. There wasn’t time. But after John was killed, [00:25:00] three months later, I was arrested in New Haven, Connecticut for conspiracy charges. A bunch of charges, but conspiracy to commit murder was the charge that stuck. JJ: Can you explain what that was about? EH: I will. But my father never came to visit me in prison. Not because he was mean, he couldn’t face it. He lived in a lot of denial. He just couldn’t face it. So, why was I in prison in New Haven, Connecticut? JJ: And that was your first arrest, that was -- EH: Oh, that was the second -- that was the third time I was arrested. The first-time: arbitrary arrest. And there were other instances where we were routinely -- Party members were routinely [00:26:00] stopped and searched, and that happened lots of times. The second time that I was arrested was the day that John and Alprentice “Bunchy” Carter were killed. The police just picked us up, charged us with malicious mischief, and put us all in jail. And that was because they didn’t want the plan that they’d hatched with the FBI to get exposed because we 10 �already knew. I don’t want to say that we had definite knowledge, but we knew that the FBI was involved, just like we knew that our phones were bugged, we knew that we were followed at night, and we knew that the people following us were not the police. The police followed us and stopped us. JJ: How did you know? I mean -- EH: It’s like sixth sense. However, [00:27:00] we knew that -- at first, I thought these are detectives working with the Los Angeles Police Department. And then Bunchy educated us to -- JJ: You talking about the US Organization? EH: No, I’m not talking about the US Organization, I’m talking about the FBI. I’ll talk about the US Organization in a minute. Long before we had anything much to do with our communications with the US Organization, we realized that the government wanted to kill us. The US Organization couldn’t have wiretapped our phones, they didn’t leave notes on our cars, they didn’t follow us at night, they didn’t shine spotlights on us when we were getting ready to leave the Party office. That was the FBI. And LAPD [00:28:00] was such a wonderful tool for the FBI because they were so backward, ignorant, and overtly racist. I have friends from Texas who said that there were billboards in Los Angeles -- pardon me, in Texas saying, “Join the LAPD.” And the billboards would say all kinds of things. Who paid for this kind of advertisement, I don’t know. At any rate though, by the time John and Bunchy were killed, we knew that the government was set on killing all of us, and we knew that people wearing dashikis and bald heads, which was the [00:29:00] signature of the US Organization member’s, men and women, 11 �that they were not entirely at fault. We knew this. We knew that Black men pulled the trigger on the gun that killed John and Bunchy, but something more was happening. And I think we also had an inkling of it because we knew that one man with a gun didn’t kill Martin Luther King. We knew that one man with a gun didn’t kill Malcolm X, or John Kennedy, or Robert Kennedy. But we didn’t know what we didn’t know about until after John and Bunchy were killed or maybe even almost half a year later was the Counterintelligence Program. We didn’t have a name for it. But Bunchy made it clear to us -- [00:30:00] I will tell you this story. Bunchy was -- have you talked to anybody who ever met Alprentice “Bunchy” Carter? JJ: No, not yet. EH: Well, there’s a lot I could say. We don’t have time, but I could tell you this: That when you met him, that if you had the good fortune of meeting him, you knew immediately that you were in the presence of royalty. That was the distinct feeling I had. And I didn’t know it, but other people had the same sense. He carried himself like a king. He taught himself about African American and African history in prison. He was the head of a gang called the Slauson’s. And from prison, he politicized them. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? Because the Young Lords came out of a similar [00:31:00] base. He just got the word out, “Quit killing each other. It’s time for us to uplift our people.” And so when John and I joined the Black Panther Party, Bunchy was still in prison or back in prison for a while, I don’t remember, we didn’t meet him right away. But as soon as we did, he sort of took us under his wing. He wasn’t that much older than John or me. 12 �It’s just that he had a great leadership power. I’m not saying that I didn’t, I’m not saying that John didn’t, but he was charismatic and powerful, and hundreds of young men and women, all over Los Angeles, if Bunchy said it, it was true. If Bunchy said we don’t need to be killing each other, we’re not going to kill each other. They didn’t even understand why. Bunchy said it. And that was a good beginning, wasn’t it? I’m talking like I’m having a [00:32:00] conversation with you, but I’m really not. I’m talking to the camera. So one day Bunchy came to the office that we worked out of, a building called the Black Congress. And the Black Congress was an office building that had small offices down a long hallway. And the US Organization had an office three doors from the Black Panther Party office. They were always there; we were always there. And though we teased one another, there was no animosity. What was the teasing about? They believed that culture would uplift people, we believed that the whole system of capitalism needed to be overthrown. And not just for the benefit of Black people, but all oppressed people. [00:33:00] So there wasn’t any changing the Black Panther Party’s view, there wasn’t any changing the US Organization’s view, so we teased one another. Well one day Bunchy came to the office, and the office had those little sort of cubicle spaces that had a desk and a phone, but it also had a community meeting room, and he called ahead of his arrival and said, “Tell the comrades to meet me in the community room.” And we were like “Uh-oh.” So we got there, Bunchy walked in, and we knew that something was up because he walked in with his coat slung over his shoulders and his house slippers on. In other words, he left immediately because he was always 13 �impeccably dressed, not a hair out of place, his clothes were always put together, and he would not show up [00:34:00] anywhere in slippers. He walked into that meeting room and he had papers in his hand. He often led -- by the way -- he often led our political education classes. It was with Bunchy that I first really -- I didn’t understand African and African American history in college. It was through Bunchy that I came to understand colonization and imperialism and the economy of the slave trade. So he walked in and we were all sitting there waiting for him. He said, “Comrades, see this?” And he held up those papers. And we looked and those of us sitting in the front row, I believe I was sitting with Elaine Brown and Joan Kelly, and what we saw were cartoons drawn supposedly of Ron Karenga, the head of the US Organization. And we all [00:35:00] wanted to laugh! This was not the time to laugh. But we wanted to laugh because the cartoons could not have been drawn by anybody Black. You could tell that they were made up, they were fake. And there were letters in slang trying to replicate Black street dialect, it was hilarious. But we bit our lips, we didn’t laugh, and Bunchy said, “We didn’t draw these cartoons, and we didn’t write these letters to the US Organization. Here’s what I want to say. You may not tease any members of the US Organization about their bald heads, about what African clothes they wear, or their ideology. You will not do anything but say “hello,” “good morning,” “good evening,” and keep going. We are all Black people together. We don’t have any beef [00:36:00] with the US Organization. I am on my way now to apologize for these letters and to let Ron Karenga and his organization know that not only did we not write these letters, that the FBI is 14 �writing them.” We found out later that, of course, in Oakland the Black Panther Party was receiving the same kind of letters from organizations. So there was an interest, the FBI had an interest in marketing both organizations and many others to be like enemies, and in creating conflict, and that’s what they did. I’ll never forget that day because when people say, “Oh, what happened on January [00:37:00] 17th was just a fight between the US Organization and the Black Panther Party, two rival groups.” Or some people say two rival gangs. No, it wasn’t. It was the FBI. And it was later that I found out through an FBI informant who met with me that we were right because he told me what was happening on the UCLA campus and in the local office at the FBI to set up situations that would leave the leadership of the Black Panther Party and, I would imagine, the US Organization, diminished. It’s unfortunate that people had to die and that the setup included people [00:38:00] firing at each other. But it was orchestrated by J. Edgar Hoover’s Counterintelligence Program. JJ: Has there been any information later (inaudible)? EH: Yes. About a year later The Los Angeles Times printed an article saying that there was proof that the US Organization wasn’t entirely to blame, nor was the Black Panther Party for what happened on the UCLA campus. Utilizing the student desire to find a director for the High Potential Program (it was an EOP program), the FBI just orchestrated a conflict, and used operatives [00:39:00] to carry out the conflict. So the LA Times wrote this. I don’t have the article anymore, but I used to keep it. Also this informant who met with me said that the director of the field office there in Los Angeles, near Westwood, kept saying 15 �aloud when he went back to the office that day on January 17th there was chaos. And he said that the director there kept saying over and over again, “We fucked up, we fucked up. Nobody was supposed to die.” Why would I believe an FBI informant? An operative? Because he sought me out, and with great sincerity, and a lot of guilt and sadness, he told me this story. [00:40:00] I try as much as I can to pay attention to human beings when they’re talking to me, and I believed him. I didn’t have any reason not to believe him because it really affirmed a belief I already had, that the US Organization did not do this alone. And I think that Black people are so used to fighting with one another that that’s easier to believe, that so and so pulled the trigger, and then so and so pulled his trigger, and then some people died. But, you know, the person who pulled the trigger, and my husband John Huggins, and Bunchy Carter were all pawns in some bigger game. The sad thing, and the almost idiotic thing about all of this, is that the FBI [00:41:00] and the United States government actually thought that they would kill the movement by killing leaders. That never really happened. It didn’t happen. If that were true, then movements wouldn’t continue to pop up everywhere ever so often. But it certainly didn’t stop the Los Angeles chapter of the Black Panther Party and it definitely did not stop me. JJ: Why -- I know the [US?] Organization was involved with Kwanzaa-- EH: Kwanzaa? JJ: Why did they target the Black Panther Party in Los Angeles? What were they afraid about? What were the Panthers doing that they were afraid? EH: US Organization? 16 �JJ: No, the government. The government. EH: Oh, okay. You know it’s fine if you [00:42:00] wear your cultural outfit and talk about Puerto Rican independence, right? That’s fine. You dress up and dance and sing. They’re not going to come after you. You start talking about creating an equal balance in the imbalance of wealth, that wealth needs to be redistributed, and that people shouldn’t be pushed out, shoved out, otherwise left out in the cold without food, shelter, clothing, healthcare, education? Then the government, at that time the government was really upset with that, and considered us communists -- whatever that meant to them. And [00:43:00] their narrative, their story, was that we were a threat to internal security. We were the greatest threat to internal security. Wait a minute, the Breakfast for Children Program that the Black Panther Party started was a great threat to national security. It’s because we were talking about wealth, and power, and privilege, and we were wise enough -- because of Huey Newton and Bobby Seale -- we were wise enough to know that skin color was utilized as an excuse for making it okay in the American mainstream story. “Look, they’re not intelligent, look, they’re less than human, look, they’re the descendants of slaves, it’s okay, we know what we’re doing here.” And we said “No, it’s not okay. No, [00:44:00] wealth needs to be redistributed.” And we also talked about overthrowing the government. We really didn’t, except in rhetoric, talk about killing anybody, and that was mostly, I’m sorry to say, the men of the Black Panther Party talked like that. But we continually talked about overhauling the whole system. And I remember many, many times when we spoke about changing the conditions 17 �(coughs) that create poverty. So, hope that answers that question. JJ: Were you working with some of the other groups there in Los Angeles? EH: We worked with everybody. We worked with the Socialist Workers Party, the Communist Party, we would have worked with US Organization if they -- they were a little bit sequestered. We worked with the Brown Berets when they began, [00:45:00] the labor unions, student movements. That’s why John and Bunchy were on the UCLA campus. They had both become students and had become a part of the Black Student Union, so to speak, so that they could help the students to feel empowered to have their needs met. This was at a time when Black and Brown students were just being allowed to be on UC campuses with financial aid. We worked with the Women’s Movement, the Gay Liberation Movement, the Vietnam vets, the Anti-War Movement, we worked with the Black Police Officers Association. There wasn’t any organization I can think of we did not work with, [00:46:00] unless we knew that their leadership was infiltrated by the FBI, and that was often the case. You know, organizations where they came to create chaos where there was none. And we didn’t all like each other, we didn’t agree with each other’s ideologies, but we knew that united, “a united front” as we used to say, was better than one organization working in a singular fashion. JJ: What about the case in Connecticut? What was that about? EH: Wow, that case in Connecticut was about a lot. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. There was an FBI informant, [00:47:00] George Sams -- now, the leadership of Black Panther Party didn’t know that he was an FBI informant, nor 18 �did I when I first met him. So, by this time I am twenty years old, I have a three week -- well, almost three months, give or take a few weeks, baby, and I’m a widow. And I was living in a traumatized state. I do remember that. I was sad, and when I wasn’t sad, I was withdrawn, and when I wasn’t withdrawn, I was just making it through the days. John was my best friend. He wasn’t just my husband, he was my best friend, and he’s my baby’s father. And I [00:48:00] kept doing Party work because I knew it would make me feel like I was of use. You know, when John -- when we buried John, I wanted to -- I tried actually, literally, to crawl into his grave. And I remember somebody just sort of pulling me from behind from my jacket and I kind of woke up. I couldn’t bear that he wasn’t around anymore. And so, when I met this FBI informant, George Sams, he came -- it was the first time I’d ever seen him in my life -- he came into the New Haven office of the Black Panther Party, which was, by the way, in the home of a man, Warren Kimbro, it was in his apartment. And the chapter of the Black Panther Party was started because when I went to bury John [00:49:00] and to be with his family, the members of the Yale student community and faculty, as well as members of the New Haven Black community asked me to stay and start a chapter of the Party. And so I contacted the Party’s chief of staff, David Hilliard, and I said, “Should I do this?” And he said, “Yes.” And so I did, with the help of so many people. And again, I’m in this state that’s almost -- it’s an altered state. Breastfeeding widow, right? That’s a doubly altered state. New widow, twenty years old. And in walks this strange -- [00:50:00] he was one of the strangest people I think I’d ever met to that point in my life. He walks into the Party office. 19 �He’s pushing in front of him a young man, who seemed to be maybe a year younger or older than me, I don’t know. I had never met the man before. And he’s pushing him, and I see that he, George Sams, has a gun, and he’s got it focused on the back of this young man. And he says to all of us gathered there - and I don’t remember exactly who was in the room, I distinctly remember that I was there -- he said, “This man’s name is Alex and he’s an FBI informant. And we’re going to hold him because we can’t turn him over to the police, we’re in a state of war.” This is how we talked then. All of that rhetoric. [00:51:00] I can’t say that I believed George Sams right in that moment because with the state that I was in was a certain level of cynicism and bitterness. “Well, if he’s an informant, then maybe we should hold him. Well, then the government just killed John…” Those were the kinds of thoughts I was having. The ones that I can remember. And then he sat Alex down somewhere and all of us kind of just were quiet, waiting to see what was going to happen. And George Sams, from that moment forward, kind of took over the Party office. He bossed Warren Kimbro around, he bossed me around, he treated the young -- there was -- very young women joined the Party and I want to say right here and now [00:52:00] that men in the Party didn’t always treat women in the Party as fully capable, as equal. At that time. And people were afraid of George Sams because he wielded a gun. He didn’t have any reservations about hitting someone in the head with the gun butt. He was sadistic. He enjoyed inflicting pain. How do I know that? I saw it. And that was the environment we were in and so eventually Alex Rackley was held under house arrest. He wasn’t allowed to go. He wasn’t treated like a 20 �human being. And I was there. And one night, George Sams and two other people took [00:53:00] Alex Rackley out for the first time I guess in days. It seemed like years to me. It just seemed like it was so -- such a long period of time. And I felt like I couldn’t tell anybody what was going on. I certainly wasn’t going to ring up the police and say guess what. And I didn’t tell my family, I didn’t tell John’s family. I was living in a state of fear and confusion. And you know what? There isn’t a day that goes by all these decades later that I don’t wish that I had stopped this chain of events that occurred in some way. I look back at it and I say, “Well, what could you have done?” [00:54:00] And I think of lots of things I could have done, but would it have been helpful? Would I have died in the process? Probably. But it wasn’t like a had a fear for my life actually. I didn’t feel that my life was worth that much, the state that I was in. But I held myself responsible for Alex’s death because there must have been something I could do. JJ: Even though George had the gun and all that. EH: And took him out and we know now that he had someone else -- this is the thing about George Sams, he didn’t even do it, he had someone else kill him and dump his body in the swamp. The night after Alex Rackley was taken away from that little house in New Haven, that little apartment, I was having trouble sleeping [00:55:00] so I was up. It was a warm summer night, it was May, mid-May, a very warm night. I’m sitting there holding my baby and just waiting. There was a -- I want to say I had an intuitive feeling and there was an energy in the air like something was about to happen. That’s the best way I can explain it to you. And 21 �Party members slept some of everywhere. When we came together people had little pallets on the floor, people were sleeping on the couch, I was sitting on the couch holding my baby, there were three other moms there with their children, there were people upstairs in the bedroom sleeping. We were going to just wake up, brush our teeth, and do Party work. Right? That’s how it was. The windows were all open. The door is locked, but the windows are open to let in fresh air, and all of a [00:56:00] sudden I hear rapid footsteps coming and I knew without a doubt it was the police. Not the FBI, the police. And I could see them coming up the -- there was a little walkway before you got to the apartment door and I could see them running to come, and they knocked the door in, and they came in with their guns pointed. It felt like there were a thousand of them, but there probably were in reality ten or fifteen, and they woke up -- they ran over the women sleeping on the floor, and startled and awakened them, so we have women screaming, you have babies crying, and I’m sitting there just waiting… It's funny how an incident so long ago can be absolutely gone from memory [00:57:00] and in the same time frame an incident so long ago could be absolutely indelible, every second of it, in your brain, and I can remember that night so distinctly. They began overturning -- there were cannisters in the kitchen because Warren had lived in that apartment with his wife before she left him. And so there were flour cannisters, and sugar cannisters, and it was a real little kitchen. And they were throwing flour and sugar everywhere looking for drugs, they said. They were turning over everything they could. It was chaos. And then within about -it seemed like a really long time, but I know it wasn’t, these two suited men came 22 �in, and I knew they were FBI. And they looked directly at me and they said, “Good [00:58:00] evening, Huggins. Come with us.” And I didn’t move. And they said, “Come upstairs with us.” So one of the women who wasn’t so afraid took my daughter and held her for me and I walked up the -- it was a two-floor apartment and I walked upstairs with these men. And, you know, good guy, bad guy. That was the good cop, bad cop thing. To get -- I think they thought they were going to get some information from me, and they asked me what had happened, and I didn’t respond, and they asked me again, and I didn’t respond, and they asked me again and I didn’t respond. And the bad guy leaned forward to me and he said, “We’re going to see burn in the chair, Huggins!” And I said, “Are you done now?” [00:59:00] And he said, “Yes,” and I went downstairs and got my daughter. I held her and I waited. I was so sad… There was a very kind police officer who came to where I was sitting. And he’s an African American police officer and he said, “Miss Huggins?” And I said, “Yes?” He said, “I just want to say that I’m so sorry for your loss. I knew the Huggins family, New Haven’s not a big Black community, but I knew them. I am so sorry and I’m so sorry for tonight.” [01:00:00] And he indicated without words that he was doing what he was told to do, come in and tear up the office, and ransack, and scare people. We were all taken off to jail. There were fourteen of us. Then Bobby Seale, who was not staying in that apartment at all, but who was in town to speak at Yale, was also arrested. So the next morning I was in prison with four other women, and Bobby Seale, and a few other men were arrested and put in prison. Long story short, the people who stayed on trial were myself and Bobby, the 23 �minor [01:01:00] women, meaning they were under eighteen years old were released, and the two people who were accused of actually firing the gun were tried separately. George Sams’ the state’s witness. JJ: So you never got out on bond or anything like that? EH: No, there was no -- there was no bail for that. It was a capital offense. First we were arrested for kidnapping, murder in the first degree, conspiracy with the intent to commit murder, and binding, meaning tying someone up, restraining them, with the intent to commit a crime. It was an ancient law that had been on the Connecticut law books since the 1800s. They dropped that one immediately. They dropped murder one for Bobby and I. [01:02:00] Because they knew full well we didn’t murder anybody. They said that we conspired to have Alex murdered and that Bobby ordered that he be murdered. Bobby did not do any such thing and neither did I. But the charge that stuck, all the other charges were dropped against us, conspiracy with the intent to commit murder. And once again there was no bail. And not only was there no bail, Bobby was sequestered from the rest of the men in the inmate population, and when I was arrested with four other women, we were sequestered from the main inmate population as well. And then when those women were released, I was by myself. There was a period of time when I was in solitary confinement as well. And then the two men who were accused of killing Alex Rackley, and Warren Kimbro was one of them, Lonnie [01:03:00] McLucas, the other, I don’t remember the name of the prison they were in. It was a men’s prison in Connecticut, but they were not anywhere near Bobby Seale. And so we were fourteen months awaiting trial with motions 24 �from time to time, no bail, and six months on trial. JJ: And what came in the trial, what -- ? EH: What came out was that -- JJ: Fourteen months is a long time to be -- EH: I know. New Haven -- well, New England is a very sort of -- at the time was very rigid. What is the word I’m searching -- I’m searching for a word -- it was a very conservative [01:04:00] culture, New England. And so, this was the first trial of any kind in New Haven like this that wasn’t just a hit and run or an outright murder. This was the Black Panther Party. And Yale got very involved. As a matter of fact you might know that President Kingman Brewster came out on behalf of Bobby and I and got shit for it. He almost got fired because he supported us. People marched on the New Haven green in the thousands to free Bobby, free Ericka. And you know, the whole time I never really felt like I deserved any of that attention because I felt responsible for Alex’s death. I don’t think [01:05:00] Bobby Seale ever felt responsible for Alex’s death. Why should he have? He didn’t do a thing. But I was there in that house and though I didn’t harm him directly, I did not stop it, and I didn’t say to George Sams, “You are the craziest butthole I have ever met in my life, and no, you shouldn’t pour boiling water on this man.” I acquiesced, so therefore I felt I was a part of it. So in the trial all of this was brought up to make me seem like -- not even Bobby -- but I was demonized. Now that I’m talking to you about it I can see something that hadn’t really dawned on me before, that it was easier to demonize, to make the jury believe [01:06:00] that it was so wrong for a woman to be doing anything of 25 �this kind. Actually I took the stand on my behalf because it was important that I do so because if New England and New Haven were very conservative, imagine their views about women in leadership of a revolutionary organization. Which in New Haven, one of the reasons why it took so long to pick the jury, trial was six months, it took three months to pick the jury, and the reason why was there was so much bias. We were called a militant hate group, we were called a gang of thugs, all of this. So here I am this woman who supposedly orchestrated the murder of this young man, so the DA was bent on demonizing me. That was the easiest way to get me [01:07:00] and Bobby because they couldn’t say that Bobby was there. They could say that I was there and I was at fault. And I believed it. I didn’t believe I had killed anybody, but I believed the demonization. So what came out is that this man -JJ: What do you mean that you believed the -- EH: I believed what was being said about me. I believed it. Just like we believe in slavery -- I’m talking about internalized oppression. In slavery we believed that we were after a while, after maybe the first fifty or so years, we believed that we weren’t worthy as human beings. So I began to believe it because it’s what I heard all the time. My lawyers didn’t tell me that. My friends [01:08:00] didn’t tell me that. But there was something in me that believed it. Because I so believed that I should have been able to know better, to not co-sign George Sams. JJ: So did you feel you were going to lose the case? EH: M-mm. [No.] JJ: You never felt -- 26 �EH: I didn’t think about it like that. I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life in prison. JJ: That’s what I mean. EH: But I didn’t feel like we were losing. I wasn’t in that kind of state, lose or win. JJ: You thought you were going to be (inaudible). EH: I felt like they’re going to find a way to keep me here. And so what I did was I taught myself to meditate. That’s how I got through it and began to feel a sense of myself again. Eventually the jury hung when it came time [01:09:00] for a jury deliberation. The judge sent them back, “No, we need a verdict.” They hung again. He declared a mistrial and set us free. And he said when he did it, I wish I had it in writing, he said something like, “The Connecticut taxpayers have paid enough for this trial. There’s no evidence against these defendants, they’re free to go.” And there really wasn’t any evidence. There was a tape admitted. I don’t know if it got heard in the courtroom or was admitted as a transcript, I can’t remember. But it was of George Sams trying to get Alex Rackley to admit that he was [01:10:00] an informant. And my voice is on the tape. So that was why -that was one reason why they thought that there was a case against me and it was also another reason why I believed that I was responsible for this young man’s death. So every day I think of him. Every day I send blessings to his family because I know that I was not then in the state where I could have been helpful to anybody, not even to myself. JJ: Could you mention the Party work? What do you mean -- what was the chapter doing there [01:11:00] at the time? 27 �EH: We started a breakfast program, a clinic, we were helping people with cases of police brutality. It was only a short time that I had been there. I got there in January, right after John’s death. JJ: So you had a breakfast program and a -- EH: And a clinic. JJ: But how many kids were attending at that time? EH: I don’t remember. A lot of them though. And the clinic was named after John Huggins. So it was January to May, so that’s a relatively short time. I guess I -- JJ: What section of town that you were -- ? EH: The Hill area. JJ: It was called the Hill? EH: Yeah, and the Hill is just like any other barrio or ghetto in any other city. JJ: So you were picking barrios or ghettos? EH: Oh yeah, we wanted to go where the people were in most need. That’s where the Black Panther Party always went. [01:12:00] The Party office in Oakland, the first office in Oakland, was in West Oakland, which is really poor. Well the people are living in conditions of poverty. The schools, the health, the housing, the food is substandard. JJ: So you just wanted to give away food or? EH: Well, the breakfast program did give away food, they gave breakfast, and sometimes lunch. But what were also doing is awakening people to their own power. That yes, there’s a breakfast program, yes, there’s a clinic, but you have the power to change your destiny. You don’t have to live in these conditions. 28 �You can speak up; you can ask for more. And New Haven is a very rich immigrant community as well. I didn’t know that until I was there [01:13:00] then. And it’s even more so now but it was like African Americans, immigrant Italians, immigrant Irish, Haitian, Dominican, Puerto Rican, and African. And wherever these groups of people were, there was poverty! But instead of working together they were pitted against each other for whatever little poverty program crumbs fell off the cake plate. And so we tried to help people the same thing we did wherever we were -- the Black Panther Party did the same thing everywhere because the Ten Point Program was about clothing, food, shelter, education, the end to police brutality, justice, peace. Are we out of time? [01:14:00] JJ: I think we were just when we’re getting into the program. (break in recording) EH: (cellphone ringing) There’s another whole room right there that’s back -- you can close the door in the bathroom. I’m just directing her all around your apartment. (laughs) I did come to terms with this feeling of unworthiness. I did recognize through my practice of meditation in prison and since then -- I meditate every day -- that it’s important for us to recognize our mistakes and keep moving. [01:15:00] It’s important to have love for ourselves, not just for “the people.” We’re part of the people! And I was thinking back to that period of time when I meditated in prison and I would do so every day. I would just sit -- I didn’t know what I was doing, nobody taught me. I just read a little book that said if you sit quietly and notice your breath, your mind will become calm. I’m glad I thought that that was possible for me, because that’s what happened. It isn’t that my thoughts stop, and like magic I was immediately in a thought-free state or quiet, 29 �it’s just that the thoughts had less power over me. Those emotions of sadness, [01:16:00] and the feeling of unworthiness, and “I-shoulda-woulda-coulda,” kind of dissipated, and I was able to just be right in the present moment. As a result of my practice of meditation, I started an in-prison organization called Sister Love. It was just a way for women in the prison to connect with one another and support one another rather than waiting on the pimp who was supposed to bail them out or the husband that had beat them or to be so terribly sad because they were separated from their children, just like me. I could only see my daughter for an hour once a week on Saturday. The way Sister Love worked, because it couldn’t be an overt political organization, that’s why it had that sweet-sounding little name, is that the [17:00:00] prison allowed us to do each other’s hair. Well, I’m glad they did. Because what they didn’t know that we knew, it was primarily Black and Puerto Rican women, is that around the doing of hair, a lot of conversation can happen, and a lot of transformative education occurs. So every -- once a week we would get together and we would do each other’s hair and we would end up talking about our communities. And it was quiet, and it was under the -- it was beneath the radar of the guards, the prison guards, and the prison authorities. But we actually started an organization in the prison that one of the things we did was to help women who had been brought in addicted to heroin, we would smuggle things to them so they wouldn’t have to kick cold, which is horrific. It’s just horrific to [01:18:00] kick that kind of habit without any medication and no support, which is what the prison did. We watched women die in there. And so we did that. What I’m saying to you is, and what I would like 30 �anyone who uses this interview to help them in their studies, or in their life, or in their activism, it is important to merge spiritual practice and social justice. One without the other doesn’t work. I’m not talking about religion. I’m talking about some kind of practice that uplifts your spirit because activism will burn you out for sure if you don’t have something that holds you from the inside out. JJ: And a final thing, you did some other programs, too right, the liberation school later? [01:19:00] EH: Oh yeah, my life is a series of… doing! (laughs) The Oakland Community School was by far one of the most outstanding things I’ve ever participated in in my life. And someday I’ll write a book about it. When I first was released from prison and after a month collected my daughter and moved back to Oakland, I became one of the teachers, a writing teacher, and then a creative writing teacher, at the Oakland Community School. It was called the Intercommunal Youth Institute at the time because of Huey’s theory of a boundaryless, community-based world. And it was named after Sam Napier, who was the Party newspaper’s distribution manager, who was killed [01:20:00] once again in one of those set-ups that was based in this effort of the COINTELPRO. I’m not talking about who actually pulled the trigger, I’m talking about what was at the foundation of it. Anyway, so then one of the grandmothers of one of the students said why don’t we have -rather than having this big wonderful house, it’s wonderful, to educate the children, why don’t we have a dedicated school building. She said this to Huey. And he formed the Educational Opportunities Corporation to buy a school building, and we opened in the school year 1973-1974 as the Oakland 31 �Community School. And I became the director because the prior director left the Party. And it was student-centered, community-based, tuition-free, [01:21:00] and really taught children how to think. Not what to think, how to think. There were a hundred -- there were ninety children when we first opened our doors and almost immediately a hundred and fifty, which was our capacity. And we always had children on the waiting list, including unborn children. This is how much the community loved it. And we all loved it because our children were not just surviving, they were thriving. We served three meals a day, we had martial arts, we taught them -- after a while we taught them to meditate. Every day, everybody from age four and a half to twelve would sit in the multipurpose room and just sit quietly. I was the most amazing wonderful thing. We didn’t discipline children by demeaning them, yelling at them, [01:22:00] putting them in a detention room, and making them feel terrible. We taught them Hatha yoga postures that they would have to leave and do. Because in doing the posture they had to focus and maintain balance, and so it brought them back to center so that they could come back to the classroom feeling okay, I’ll all right now, I’m a human being again. And those young people are now in their forties. I interviewed them for my master’s thesis, you might want to read it at some point. And they all say, every single one of them, that the Oakland Community School was the high point of their lives. And they’ve gone every which way in their lives, some of them went to jail -- how would they not? They grew up in our communities -- some of them became doctors, some of them became CEOs of organizations, [01:23:00] some of them became actors or actresses, some of 32 �them became lawyers, one became a museum docent, a number of them became teachers. All of them say the same thing, that “The reason why Oakland Community School worked is because you loved us enough.” We took care of them, we loved them. They were individual human beings. And there was nothing they could do that would make us stop loving them. They could make a mistake, but we would still love them. They could get in a fight, but we would still love them. They could not love themselves and we would still love them. And that made an imprint on their hearts. So it was really wonderful to work on that thesis because of them. Being in the academy wasn’t that fun, but interviewing them was really wonderful. JJ: Final thoughts, and then we’ll stop. [01:24:00] EH: One day I was talking to a young poet and he asked me about love. And for some reason I responded with this, that’s now become a quote attributed to me, “Love is a great expression of power. Use it to transform your world.” JJ: That’s great. Thank you very much. EH: Thank you very much! END OF VIDEO FILE 33 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1c1aa03937b2ebbf465a87d5822de9fd.mp4 98026b3d70e1bf17cd325fc7e09eceeb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Erica Huggins vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Erica Huggins, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 3/13/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Huggins_Erica Title A name given to the resource Erica Huggins video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Huggins, Erica Description An account of the resource Oral history of Erica Huggins, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 3/13/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-03-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/344ed46fa86eed32d47c29c51b12467b.mp4 94e6c05cc2b518a8814b25cce6a793f7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d6f0b7acacdb4082925464dc90b4970.pdf fbca2a8e47f63749781cfbe108f4d1ce PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Other veterans & civilians Interviewee name: Robert Lee Hughes Length of Interview: (00:31:25) Background (00:00:20) Born on June 17, 1956 in Detroit, MI Was a shy child and was held back in kindergarten because of that  Lived in Leonard, MI at that time (northeast of Detroit) Went Oxford High School His father had bone marrow cancer, so he passed away at 42, 1970 Hughes’ mother then had to move back to Reed, MI for work  She had been going to college to get a degree in psychology, but had to quit after her husband was diagnosed Hughes had a half brother that fought in the Vietnam War (drove with “The Crazy Eights”)  At age 27, Hughes’ half brother was in an accident when fixing a truck (1977)  Hughes had just been married when this happened When going to Oxford, in 7th grade, he was in a ½ day program  Ran track, played softball, was a cub scout  In Reed, MI, was a part of the wrestling team (8th grade) His mother was remarried in 1973 After his father’s death, they moved to his grandfather’s horse farm Did vocational education (outdoor education) in school Graduated in 1975 Service (00:12:02) Enlisted into the Marine Corps in 1978 �Was in there for three years Enlisted at in Reed City, went to Detroit for the physical Went to San Diego for basic training Was overweight when he arrived there (300lbs.) Arrived for training in March and graduated in August weighing 170lbs. Training (00:14:01) Every day was physical conditioning; a part of the Physical Conditioning Platoon  Trained with Bugle Sticks Awoke at 5 AM everyday Kept everything in his footlocker Was treated like the overweight man in “Full Metal Jacket” Went to Fort Lee, Virginia for Laundry/Bath training (field sanitation) (00:16:20)  Was there for about 3 months Went to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina (00:17:27) Continued 11-71 Field Sanitation Engineer  Had additional duties, a part of the Motor Pool End of Service (00:18:43) Stayed there until he left the service in 1981 Lived off base with his wife and child Had also done Beach Detachment Duty for 6 weeks  When in the service, his hours were 7 AM to 10 PM (00:20:30) Discharged from Lejeune and went back to Reed, MI where he worked at the Yoplait factory Did not see much action because he was in the service during the Cold War (00:29:23)  If he had stayed on until 1982, he would have been sent into Lebanon �Feels like he was matured due to his time in the service � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hughes, Robert Lee (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hughes, Robert Lee Description An account of the resource Robert Lee Hughes served his time in the Marine Corp. from 1979 until 1981. He trained mainly in Field Sanitation (Laundry/Bath Training) in Fort Lee, Virginia and Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. He did not see combat due to his time being served during the Cold War. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-07 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HughesR Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives