426 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e322a3aabef747b2b2e4faa6334a85c.pdf c3ce516eeeede172debbf4f167fe8dc1 PDF Text Text �����Cities Towne and Villages I covered in Europe Entered France Sept. 7, 1944 .at; Utah Beach Montebourg Cartaret Fontainebl en Hoeville Arrocourt Vic Sur Sa1lle Hampont Wuisse Bassing Albestro.ff Altwiller Sarre Union Ormingen Achen Metz Luxembourg Waltzing Eishen Redange Grosboua Bonnell Esc-hd_o rf Bavigne Doncols Boevange-Les-Clervax France Boulay Germany Krenzwald sarrbu.rg Serr1g Broldorf Huttersdorf Dirmingen Ottweiller Laudotuhd .Alzey Neider-Olm Leeheim Darmstadt Jugesheim Hanau Waltiensberg Rosenfeld Fulda Geisa Roesdorf Suhl Sehleusingen Schalkau sonneberg Helmsbreoht s Stamm back Bayreuth Kemna.ch Pressath Freihung Schwarzenf~ld Bodenwohr Falkenstein Mitterf'els Fgg Zenting Tittling Hauzenberg Austria Lembach Aigen Rohrbach ••••** END Czeohosl ovak1a Prachat1tz " �Germany Passau Wildqad Kreuth Munchen (Munich) ' Ulm Karlsruhe l(annhe1m Ludw1gshafen Kaieerelautern Homburg France ' - - - ~ -___,,=- -~- Nancy Camp New Orleans Near Mailly Champagne Troyes Paris Re1ms Lyon Val D'Ieere Camp Pittsburg Calas Marseille � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource James Ochs collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ochs, James W. Description An account of the resource Collection includes a photo album of images taken by Ochs, 16 photos taken by the Army Signal Corps of the 26th Infantry Division, and document his tour of duty in France with the 26th Division, friends he acquired in France, and his leisure time activities Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1942/1945 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/482">James W. Ochs World War II collection (RHC-55)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945 United States. Army France Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-55 Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JWO_Ochs_1945-06-06 Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945 Michigan--History, Military United States. Army. Signal Photo Company, 166th United States. Army. Infantry Division, 26th Soldiers Military life Correspondence Description An account of the resource Letter from James W. Ochs to his parents, June 6, 1945. Letter reads: "June 6, 1945. Prachtitz, Czech. Dear Mom & Dad, Being just one year ago that the invasion came off, today was a holiday for us so all I did was take a walk and went swimming twice. Where was the river. Well just a small stream that has a dam across it. It was fairly good swimming with the water just cool. The other time I told you I went swimming was in another small stream back near Aigen, Austria. Today I got two letters from you and last night there were a couple too. Also today I got one Free Press and believe it or not but it was for only nine days ago. It came with the air-mail of the same date. Also thanks Dad for renewing the subscription for another three months. The last four letters I have are dated May 25, 27 & 29 are your Mom and yours Dad of May 19. Also the stamps came as always. You asked about how many points I have. Well I have 49 but with the two campaign stars which I should get it will make it a total of 59. No, not too good but there are worse. I hope that my letters are going through better now than they were when you wrote those letters. By the way did I tell you Dad that the money order came through O.K. Thanks a lot. Today I also got a couple of letters from Mary written the 26 and 28. She didn't have anything special to say except the next week-end she was planning on going to Detroit for a few hours she could have there. The old boats sure bring in the money when they come in. That helps anyway. Now Mom here is a little advise. Don't rent our house. We aren't that hard up at any time and they would probably do more damage in the end that it would be worth. And if I did happen to get home this summer remember I'd like to live in our house. Of course that is just speculating but then you never can tell. I'm glad my box got there O.K. with al the winter things in it. Well what do you think of the German Air Corps Jacket. I hope it got there O.K. I'm waiting to hear if it was underneath when you unpack the box. Prove(?) what Doris wrote you Frank must be making a pretty good housekeeper & cook. But then they both got pretty good bargins. About now the spring house cleaning should be just about now so I guess I can come home now for a few days. I only wish I could. Goodnight & Love, Bill." Amended to the letter is a typescript list of cities and towns Ochs visited in Europe. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ochs, James W. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1945-06-06 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived James W. Ochs WWII collection, RHC-55 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Title A name given to the resource James Ochs letter Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5236bf4c3da5225acffe7f677f8c5072.pdf ef0d33fb0808bff8eddc261fb02131b8 PDF Text Text ������������������������������������������������������ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource James Ochs collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ochs, James W. Description An account of the resource Collection includes a photo album of images taken by Ochs, 16 photos taken by the Army Signal Corps of the 26th Infantry Division, and document his tour of duty in France with the 26th Division, friends he acquired in France, and his leisure time activities Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1942/1945 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/482">James W. Ochs World War II collection (RHC-55)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945 United States. Army France Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-55 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-55_JWOPhotoAlbum Title A name given to the resource James Ochs photograph album Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945 United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military United States. Army. Signal Photo Company, 166th United States. Army. Infantry Division, 26th Scrapbooks Photographs Soldiers Military life Description An account of the resource Photograph album containing 524 black and white photographic prints (3"x4", 2"x"2", and 4"x4") documenting the European travels of James W. Ochs during and post- World War II. The album contains a portrait photo of Ochs, as well as images of French cities and countryside, buildings, street scenes, nature, soldiers, Ochs' friends and acquaintances, a parade and entertainment show, skiing in the Alps, planes and ships. Content Warning: Some photographs in this album depict mass burials, death, and human remains. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ochs, James W. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1944 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived James W. Ochs WWII collection, RHC-54 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/85dd72dce53b2a3d37359f497433f1bf.jpg e5cd869c37d2cc3e9988411785efc002 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JamesDante_Photo01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1980 Title A name given to the resource James, Dante Description An account of the resource Dante James, WGVC-TV Operations Manager Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng 1980s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9a4842add91c481d490a096a4ed1b610.jpg 6c73b089ce94801dcde2763f57d099e2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JamesDante_Photo02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource James, Dante Description An account of the resource Dante James, WGVC-TV Operations Manager Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2918a555c90130bbfa04aa564b0907a7.pdf f3ffc870db418f1f3e51b81c82310bb5 PDF Text Text James: The Best of Conservatism From the series: Varieties of Religious Experience Scripture: Acts 15:1-21; James 2:14-26 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Eastertide, May 16, 1999 Transcription of the spoken sermon We have been noting in the Eastertide season that there is a variety of religious experience. When one surveys the landscape of the Church, that must be obvious. And it is obvious, as well, in the early leaders of the Christian movement as we find them in the New Testament documents. I have dealt with Paul in regard to his recognition of the Spirit/flesh civil war that rages with the human being and in regard to his misreading of the time line of history where his generation was in the unfolding drama of history. I will come back to him in a few weeks, but I mention him now because today our focus is James, and James and Paul are studies in contrast. Both were of the strictest observants of Judaism. Paul was encountered by a vision of the risen, ascended Christ and made a radical departure from his former Pharisaic Jewish observance. James was given an appearance encounter by Jesus after Easter, according to Paul, convincing him that Jesus was the Messiah, but he remained an observant Jew until his execution in the 60s, having become the Bishop of the Jerusalem Mother Church, a "Christian" Church of observant Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah, crucified, raised from the dead, ascended to the presence of God from whence they expected his imminent return. Paul, the radical innovator. James, the conservative guardian of tradition. Reflecting on these matters is not simply for the purpose of historical interest; it has everything to do with how we today conserve the core insights and truths of the Christian tradition and at the same time incorporate the ever growing knowledge available to us from ancient times, from historical study of Christian origins, from biblical research, and the exploding knowledge of the world of © Grand Valley State University   �James, Best of Conservatism Richard A. Rhem Page 2   which we are a part, and how we accommodate the tradition to new understanding. Think with me about James, the brother of Jesus, whom I point to as representing the best of conservatism. Conservatism has become a label we put on political parties or parties within an institution such as the Church. Conservative is usually paired with liberal as its opposite. But, that is really unfortunate. I have carried with me since the 60s when I first read it, a statement by Walter Lippmann: Every truly civilized and enlightened man is conservative and liberal and progressive. He is conservative because the roots of our civilization lie in those three ancient kingdoms of the Mediterranean: Israel, Greece, and Rome. He is liberal because the laws must be administered with charity and magnanimity. He is progressive because the times change and we must act in the world as it is and as it is becoming. Here, liberal points to a liberal spirit as open and magnanimous, while the word progressive is probably what we think of as liberal - at least in the Church. If we agree, then we would see Paul as progressive and James as conservative. But, if we believe Lippmann, a civilized and enlightened person will hold in tension conservatism and progressivism and that, because we are shaped by a tradition that is rooted in history when certain core values and understandings come to expression, and we are in the stream of history whose one constant is change, evolution, and emergence of the new. Unfortunately, in times like ours, marked by culture wars and in the Church by the rhetoric of the religious right and defensiveness of the mainline, we tend to label and to engage in name calling and we fail to recognize that there are truths and values that shape the tradition that must be preserved and yet must be allowed to evolve with the changing landscape of history. I use conservative in that proper sense of the word as the concern to learn the roots of the tradition and preserve the core values and insights in order that they may be passed on and not lost. Note: Such an understanding of conservatism is not at all fundamentalism which is simply the reiteration of yesterday’s answers to today’s question. James was a Conservative in contrast to Paul who was a Progressive, but both James and Paul were both conservative and progressive - one more this, the other more that, but both struggling with a very real and still present struggle preserving the best of the past while opening to the needs of the present and openness to the future. © Grand Valley State University �James, Best of Conservatism Richard A. Rhem Page 3   The James we are talking about is the brother of Jesus, the author of the Letter of James in the New Testament, called James the Just or the Righteous. I’ve never really thought about James in terms of his religious experience, but it is fascinating to think about where he came from and where he moved. Because it is so difficult to think about Jesus as a real flesh and blood human being, I suspect we don’t think much about what it must have been like in the home of Mary and Joseph while he was growing up. James grew up with him. They must have played together, worked together, argued, fought. All of that is without record. We do know, however, that when Jesus left home for his ministry he proved embarrassing to the family. Mark 3 tells how the word was out that he was mad and Mary and his brothers came to take him home. He did not go out to talk to them. Rather, he said, "Who is my mother, my brother, my sister - the one who does the will of God." Obviously, there was alienation and estrangement. From non-canonical sources we know that James was an ascetic, perhaps a Nazirite, one who life long follows a very strict rule of holy living. If James was a Nazirite, would he not have been shocked and incensed at the loose practices of his brother? Would he not have been scandalized by Jesus’ overturning the conventional wisdom of the day - his open table fellowship and his disregard for the ritual purity laws? While we have no way of knowing, I find it fascinating to think about how contrasting were these two brothers out of the same home. Of course, we can simply say the radical newness Jesus proclaimed and lived out was the consequence of the Spirit that filled him. He saw something; he acted on it. James remained faithful to the whole tradition that was part of their parental home. But, Paul tells us the risen Christ appeared to James and we know from Paul’s letters and the Book of Acts that James became the leader of the Jerusalem Church. If we follow the story in Acts, Paul goes on the missionary journey with Barnabas, sent out by the Church in Antioch. Now, Antioch was a great metropolitan center. It was there that non-Jews, Gentiles, were first evangelized and it was in Antioch that followers of Jesus were first called Christians. Now you have a mixed congregation, an integrated congregation - Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. The burning issue was whether the Gentiles would have to become Jews by practicing circumcision and observing the food laws. Some Jewish Christians came to Antioch from Jerusalem, saying there was no salvation except by observing the Jewish law. Paul strenuously objected. He had quite another vision. © Grand Valley State University �James, Best of Conservatism Richard A. Rhem Page 4   To settle the issue, a Council was called in Jerusalem. Each side presented their case – Peter told of his experience with Cornelius and the obvious lesson that God showed no partiality. Paul and Barnabas told of their experiences of God’s grace experienced by Gentiles on their mission trip. It was then James, leader and conscience of the Council, who spoke. He went to the Hebrew scriptures which pointed to a time when the Gentiles would be included and he made the decision ... we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God – He did counsel that they abstain from certain practices that would be especially offensive to the Jewish Christian congregants. The decision was affirmed. There you have James the Conservative who was also progressive – a new situation, new times, therefore modifications - Gentiles received as members of the Christian Church, recipients of the grace of God, possessors of the Holy Spirit, but not having to become observant Jews. James was conservative in that he searched the scripture tradition and found a basis for this innovation. But, what of James; what of James’ religious experiences? I am looking forward to the weekend in November when the Jewish scholar, Amy-Jill Levine, is with us. Her theme will be the breakup of Judaism and Christianity - What was lost? What was gained? We have in Paul and James the dilemma of two differing visions – Paul remained a Jew and the God of Israel was his God. But, the traditional religious observances came to be for Paul, and I suspect Peter, matters of indifference - to observe or not to observe; it was not something of critical import. Not so for James; he remained to his death fully observant and he was the leader of a Jewish Christian community, fully observant. He has an Epistle in the New Testament. It is interesting to read it next to Paul’s letter to the Galatians, for example, or Romans. James’ famous claim is Faith without works is dead. Paul claimed we are saved by grace alone through faith alone without any religious observance. Good works follow, worship follows, righteous living follows, but no religious observances or good works are elements of our salvation. Paul said Faith without works; James said Faith was demonstrated in works. What James calls for is certainly what we would claim as the proper response of grace - if a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, you supply those bodily needs. Faith without such works of compassion is dead. Certainly Paul would agree. But, where then was the difference? © Grand Valley State University �James, Best of Conservatism Richard A. Rhem Page 5   It was nuance; yet it was not without consequence. It created two different tone qualities in the religious communities. James was the best of the conservative end of the Christian spectrum because he made room for new practice and conditions in a new situation. But, he was conservative in that he remained in the original mold. Martin Luther with his explosive experience of God’s grace loved Paul and strongly disliked James. He called his letter an Epistle of Straw, although later in life he wondered if he had been too hard on James. Human society, political institutions, educational establishments, religious traditions are always in tension because all are enmeshed in the stream of history which is ever moving into new territory, gaining fresh perspective, discovering new information, creating novel experiences that call for innovative solutions and creative adjustment. For example, one of the great institutions of this nation is under siege - the Public School. Governor Jeb Bush has apparently succeeded in his intention to make Florida a total voucher system state. The Walton Foundation, created by the success of Wal-Mart, is behind a scholarship program to provide money for some 40,000 students to afford private schooling. These are simply examples of a sharp debate going on currently and destined to become more intense between advocates of public education ad advocates of private schooling. Where will it lead us? The conservative impulse warns about losing what has been a great shaper of the American ethos. The progressive reformers point to the weaknesses and failures of the public school. The Conservative will not stand pat, refusing change, but will insist that certain values and truths not be lost. The Progressive sees much that could well be left behind in the realization of a new vision. It is not so dangerous to speak of education in the Church; it is a step removed from the center of the religious community and thus not of such emotional intensity. But, what if we speak of confessional loyalty, biblical interpretation, congregational practice? It is the same kind of tension. That is why we have established the Center for Religion and Life and that is why we are bringing in the best of scholarship and people on the cutting edge of theological reflection and historical research. We are committed to conservatism and progress in a spirit of liberality. James lives here. He says with a sigh and some fear and trembling, "Well, okay. But remember, don’t forget!" He knows movement, evolution of knowledge and practice is the rule of life, but he is committed to preserving the light and truth of the founding vision. © Grand Valley State University �James, Best of Conservatism Richard A. Rhem Page 6   Marcus Borg, who will be with us next weekend, is not a James; he is rather a Paul in terms of a new vision. But, while his scholarship pushes him to a new vision, he clearly brings to that scholarship the experience of communion with God; he is a deeply spiritual person. His most recent publication is in collaboration with an English scholar, N. T. Wright, who is James all over again. In The Meaning of Jesus, they each write on the same question in each chapter, for example, "What Did Jesus Do and Teach?," "The Death of Jesus," on resurrection, virgin birth, "Was Jesus God?," "The Virgin Birth," the Second Coming and the Christian life. They were students together at Oxford University and they remain good friends, holding each other in high esteem and affection. And they take differing views on all the cardinal points of these biblical and theological questions. Thus, they are a model of civil discourse, of civility and humane value. From their conversation comes insight and fresh understanding. I read The Meaning of Jesus and have no question but that Marcus Borg has pursued the critical analysis of Christian origins, discerned the implications and created a fresh paradigm of the Christian vision. Wright’s scholarship is not in question, but he refuses to follow the data and continues to hold to an understanding of the Christian message not much different than I held when I left seminary 39 years ago this month. What makes a James, a Paul, a Marcus, a Tom Wright? What determines how we receive fresh insight, new information? How we respond to the implications of new knowledge? Some of us have conservative genes, some progressive genes, perhaps. Some of us float above with no earth-shaking experience; for some of us the earth moves beneath us and we see something radically different than we ever saw before. We need each other. We need to be in conversation. We don’t need fundamentalists, those who refuse to open themselves to new knowledge, refuse to think and simply reiterate yesterday’s answer to today’s question and most often with defensiveness and hostility born of insecurity. But, we need those like James who recognizes the need for new ways for new situations in the unfolding of history, but who holds to the ways of the past, finding there still that which keeps him in conscious communion with God. James was a really good person, serious, faithful, trustworthy - and you could talk to him. He was the best of conservatism. © Grand Valley State University � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c5e92c2efeb003348d8a10bed0dcfe50.mp3 188182a38f3a3f02ede6491c19500da4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Eastertide VII, Ascension Sunday Series Varieties of Religious Experience Scripture Text Acts 15:1-21, James 2:14-26 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19990516 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-05-16 Title A name given to the resource James: The Best of Conservatism Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on May 16, 1999 entitled "James: The Best of Conservatism", as part of the series "Varieties of Religious Experience", on the occasion of Eastertide VII, Ascension Sunday, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Acts 15:1-21, James 2:14-26. Conservative Grace Inclusive Progressive https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ad6625823fa6514267ac37e836073210.jpg 93a7b3a22da0d54db53de4af340393cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000400 Title A name given to the resource Jamie Dahlstrom congratulated by Pres. Lubbers Description An account of the resource Jamie Dahlstrom congratulated by Pres. Lubbers. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Events Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33eda27d48947a600e80e3cab1603008.jpg 6f4628109031ef7d4ccdcd635b147883 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001052 Title A name given to the resource Jamie Hosford Description An account of the resource Jamie Hosford. He was a 12 letter winner of National Championship Wrestling, 4 time All-American wrestler, football All-American. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Sports Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f60478ed28c483a4fd7e8bd72306c978.mp4 a1fd3aa1e6f707b099bc1318cdb0657c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/007f755410111ad46080ff9fb90ad0c5.pdf 49d1d3906c686f098297897a44053cb8 PDF Text Text Jamieson, Jimmy Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Jimmy Jamieson Length of Interview: (2:11:08) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Jimmy Jamieson of Kentwood, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Jimmy start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Newport News, Virginia in 1946, my dad was in the service, he got back from the war and we lived there. Moved to Michigan, that’s where he’s from and went to four schools here, ended up graduating from Rogers High School, went to Grand Rapids junior college. Interviewer: “So Rogers is in Wyoming, Michigan which is a Grand Rapids suburb, yeah.” Correct, yeah. Interviewer: “And what was your father doing for work then once you’re up in Michigan?” (1:18) He was a- He worked for Johnson’s Furniture he was a foreman in the yard there, yard foreman, and then he ended up working for Erb Lumber and it became Carlisle Lumber and stuff like that, so I went to Lee, Grandville, Newaygo, and then Rogers which is, there was a Wyoming Park High School and then a Rogers High School and they combined the two a few years ago, couple years ago, and that’s where I went. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Okay, so as you grew up in west Michigan- Alright, and then when did you finish high school?” I graduated in ‘65 and then I went to Grand Rapids junior college then, we nicknamed it “Raider High” of course, and wanted to be a school teacher. I wanted to do industrial arts, shop teacher, and so I was taking engineering classes there, and then I got drafted in February andInterviewer: “Okay, now if you’re in college did you not have a deferment or?” No, back then if you were single and over 18 they didn’t care what your grade point was, they didn’t care what you were doing. I went to the draft board and they gave me an extension so that I finally got drafted in July, they let me finish the semester. Interviewer: “Right, well how many credit hours were you taking?” (2:42) I was going full time, I had 12, I mean that’s full. Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean because that was cause I’ve interviewed other people who get drafted around the time you did and as long as they had a full load then they didn’t get drafted, but they didn’t do that for you. No, they- Myself, a couple of my high school buddies we were all going to J.C we all got drafted at the same time and he ended up going to Korea and another one went to Germany andInterviewer: “So you go in, in July of ‘66 then where do they send you for basic training?” Well I guess I was kind of important because they sent me to Fort Knox in Kentucky, which is armor, Hell on Wheels, and I was there for 13 days and that didn’t work out so they sent me down to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the 101st Airborne, I took my basic training there. Interviewer: “Okay but when you’re in basic, I mean Fort Knox is sort of the standard �Jamieson, Jimmy place for guys from Michigan to go for army basic training or pretty much anything, and then same with Fort Campbell at that point it was setting up to do the same thing and they took the overflow from other places. So what did your basic training consist of?” At Fort Campbell, Kentucky they trained us as airborne, hopefully they could- Cause airborne is volunteer only and so our instructors were all rangers, our captain, company commander was a green beret guy so you didn’t walk on base, you ran. Airborne ran everywhere and so that’s how we were trained on Paul Bunyan’s gym stuff, that was- We stayed in barracks that hadn’t been used since 1951, no windows in them, no doors are on them, we had to nail doors up with two by fours and, you know it’s just old stuff and that was our basic. So they pretty much convinced us that we were indestructible, I mean the bullets would bound off our chest they had us so convinced. Interviewer: “Okay, so at this stage it’s still the hundred and first guys who were doing a lot of the actual training, you haven’t yet created a conventional training cadre for larger numbers of guys, and they’re just opening this up for basic. Okay, so you get the benefit of that I guess. How much of an emphasis was there on discipline, following orders, that kind of thing?” (5:08) Very much so, then they could hit you over the head with a nightstick, you know if you’re marching you’re out of step, call you names of course, it was- They really couldn’t hit you, but if you were out of step they’d reach in with a night stick and rap you on the- Cause you wore a helmet liner- Pardon me, and if you were out of step they’d put the stick in between your legs and of course you’d fall, then the next guy would fall, and then the next guy would fall, and as far as the discipline went if you were screwing up they would make the whole squad, platoon, do push-ups while you stood there and watched. So they created teamwork, they wanted you to depend on each other and protect each other, and so that was real mind opening, that was an experience that I had never experienced before is learning to depend on somebody. Interviewer: “Okay, now how long did it take you to kind of adjust to that, or adjust to life in the army?” �Jamieson, Jimmy You gotta remember I’m from a military family so about three weeks once you get over the being homesick and you learned to meet your fellow troopers, and that was the heart- In my case, I stuttered, I could hardly get a word out sometimes. I had a hard time in high school, I went to four different speech schools because I stuttered so bad- Man, so when you take harassment from your friends supposedly and guys in the Army would pick on you, the bullying affect you know, and so I wouldn’t talk much but when your platoon sergeant or your squad leader heard what was going on he would jump all over them because he’s your fellow teammate, you don’t pick on your teammate. So that was learned by the company, the squad, the platoon, that even though I stuttered you didn’t make fun of them. So you worked as a team, you learned that real quick. Interviewer: “Okay, now was following orders something that came fairly naturally?” (7:44) Yeah, I had no problem following orders. Interviewer: “Now were there some other guys that you were training with who had more trouble with that?” Oh yeah, you know they’re the alpha male, I say the “alpha male” and I was all- I turned 21 in Vietnam, so I was older than a lot of the folks in our outfit so- And coming from a military family I learned not to volunteer for anything and it was- That was, I’m not gonna say easy for me, but I knew how to play the game if that’s what you wanna call it. Interviewer: “Right, and were you in good physical shape when you went in?” Yes, in high school I wrestled for four years and played tennis, ran track, played one year of football. I was too small so I did the other stuff, but I was in pretty good shape yeah, it didn’t take long for me to- You know, on your marches and your runs, here again in airborne,you know, I say airborne. I was not in airborne but I was trained by airborne so. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “So they just took the kind of had-nosed approach that we associate with Airborne training.” Yep, you run in place or you do a double time thing, you didn’t- Once we learned how to march that was fine, but then if you were gonna go to the rifle range or you was gonna go you had to go get your shots, you didn’t march you double time jog in place, and you better be in step. So the airborne runs no matter where they go. Interviewer: “Alright, now how long did the basic last?” (9:25) Eight weeks I believe it was. Interviewer: “And where do they send you next?” Fort Meade, Maryland. Interviewer: “Okay, what were you doing there?” Field artillery- No, scratch that. Fort Sill, I’m ahead of myself, Fort Sill, Oklahoma and there I was trained on the 105 howitzer, and that was- Here again we stayed in barracks that were used in 1950, old, wooden barracks, nothing new, all Vietnam instructors. At the end we were- They put up on a board, you know like Germany, Korea, here and here, and Hawaii, and Vietnam and so I looked at all that- Now this is where you guys are gonna go, they didn’t know who was gonna go but this is where this unit is gonna send troops. So I had heard stories about Korea is 13 months, Germany is 18 months, and they only wanted like five people to go to Hawaii, and that was like 13 or 18 months. So I didn’t- So a whole bunch of us guys said- Of course you gotta remember now, we’re invincible okay, the bullets are gonna bounce off his chest and blah blah blah blah blah. So we volunteered for Vietnam. Interviewer: “Okay, now before we move forward let’s go back, what does the artillery training consist of?” �Jamieson, Jimmy The artillery? Interviewer: “Artillery training, so what are you doing while you’re at Fort Sill?” Oh, you’re learning the velocities of the 105 howitzer, how it works, what the projectile, you know, how all that is put together. The projectile is 33 pounds it’s a semi fixed, in other words it comes in a wooden box and then your powder charge is there, your projectile, and your brass. So whatever the fire mission is, whatever the F.D.C Fire Direction Control and wherever the mission is. They will tell you how far, what elevation, it’s deflection quadrant, then you would pick the right powder charge, or they’d tell you what powder charge, and then you would put that in the canister and then affix the projectile to it, and then the fuse whatever fuse that they wanted, impact fuse, HE explosive round and so on. A delayed fuse or if you’re gonna shoot white phosphorus, you know, Willie P we call it. (12:00) So you learn all that and how to lay the guns depending on how you want the rounds to hit, you would lay the gun in that fashion. One gun in base piece, so in other words that’s the most accurate gun, of the six guns base piece is the most accurate, and then- So then they would lay the gun in a lazy W if they wanted the rounds to hit like that, or straight line effect, or in behind each other. So you learn all that and then you would go out into the prairie and the airborne was to infiltrate us, and that was one of their night jumps they had to do, and so you could see these guys falling out of the sky, and we would break up into three and four man teams and we’d go out and capture them. Now they were supposed to infiltrate us, but we captured most of them. Interviewer: “Okay, the parachute is a little bit of a giveaway.” Well it was supposed to be a night jump but it really wasn’t a night jump so we could see them and we knew where they landed and stuff like that so yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you learn all the different jobs on a gun?” Yes, there’s a powder man, and a gunner, and a radio man, and because I stuttered I couldn’t be a �Jamieson, Jimmy radio man, because you have to repeat deflection and quadrants and if you’re- I have trouble with like nines, and you don’t say nine you say niner or n-n-n-niner, s-s-seven, you know. So they kept me off the radio, I could answer the radio and say “Fire mission, fire mission.” So I can do radio watch, you’d stand watch and that kind of thing, but yeah they kept me off the radio because we didn’t want to blow somebody else up. Interviewer: “Alright, now was this a towed weapon, something you’d pull behind a vehicle?” The 105 is a towed vehicle- Or a towed howitzer, yes. Interviewer: “And it was with that, the variety, they had a split trail where you open up the two-” (14:15) Yep, the trail split up and then they had spades on the back and they would hog into the ground, and you would put it up on a jack and set on a pedestal, so the wheels were off the ground. Same thing with the 155 howitzer, towed vehicle, you had a deuce and a half truck that towed it and that’s what I had in Vietnam, started out on. Interviewer: “Alright, okay and with the- How many men would normally be on a gun crew, or what’s the official number?” Seven on a 105, 11 on a 155, but in Vietnam the most we ever had was six if you include the sergeant, or the chief, the gun chief. He made seven but he was the talley and we’re the dewey so. Interviewer: “Right, and then did you have- Would you have a machine gun with the gun or any kind of defensive weapons or just what your personal weapons would be?” Once I got to Vietnam- Now I really don’t know what’s in a 105 gun battery, because I was never sent to one of them in Vietnam, but when I got to Vietnam and we had the one pipe I’d- �Jamieson, Jimmy You’d have the 50 caliber mounted on a tripod, and then each gun section has a 50, an M60 which is the 308 M60 machine gun, and then you have a M79 grenade launcher which is called a thump gun, we called it that, or a blooper infantry calls it a blooper, and then you had your individual rifle, which then was an m14, and mine was an m14 with a selector switch on it. So we also had a full automatic, and each gun section has a 12 gauge shotgun and mine happened to be a Stevens. Interviewer: “So in Vietnam you had a lot of firepower with you, which you enabled but we’re not all the way there yet. Okay, but basically you’re training only on 105’s at Fort Sill?” Yes, yep. Interviewer: “Okay and how long does that training last?” (16:20) Eight to ten weeks I believe how long- I think that’s about how long. Interviewer: “The standard is eight weeks. Okay, now once you’ve completed that now what do you do?” Well the last two weeks that I- They asked for people who wanted to be rangers, and there’s ranger airborne and then there’s straight rangers back then. So, I thought “Oh what the heck.” you know, so I volunteered rangers. So we’d get up at 4:30 in the morning, before everybody else gets up, and you’re in your green t-shirt, your green boxer shorts, and your black combat boots, and you’re running, and you run, and you do ranger training for a couple three hours and then you go do your stuff and that went on for two weeks, and then I got sent to- I don’t know if we’re that far yet or not, but I got sent to- After I volunteered and home on leave I got sent to Pleiku, which is up in the northern part of Vietnam, but the 75th Rangers. Interviewer: “So you did your- So the only ranger training you had in the states was actually at Fort Sill?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Correct. Interviewer: “As part of your A.I.T okay, and then how long a leave do they give you home, was that a month?” I had 30 days. Interviewer: “Okay, and then how do they actually get you to Vietnam?” On a C-141 troop transport, there was 150 of us in there and then jeeps, they had jeeps in there, and then pallets of duffle bags. So you marched in you had rows and rows and rows of seats and then you’re looking, you’re sitting backwards and you’re looking, at duffle bags and a couple of jeeps they had sideways and wooden skids or metal skids and that’s the whole flight. Interviewer: “Alright, so no chartered commercial plane for you, you get- Where did you fly out of?” (18:15) California- What is that, right out of Los Angeles, not Clark Air Force Base what- I can’t remember the name of that base. Interviewer: “Let’s see, Edwards or El Toro, El toro’s marines.” No, San FranciscoInterviewer: “San Francisco is Travis-” Travis! Travis Air Force Base, there you are, yep. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you stop any place on the way?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Guam, to refuel, we got out, stretched our legs, a couple hours dilly-dallying around and then get back on and flew. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you landed in Pleiku.” Pleiku, yup, and there- I was there for just a short time did some ranger training, we- The chinook helicopter and they would drop the cargo net out the back, and you’re loaded up with your rucksack and your rifle and you’d climb down this net. Then you’d run along the ground for 50 yards and then you’d climb back up and practice your compasses. Basic infantry stuff, and that didn’t last because I was going to be in field artillery attached to the 75th ranger battalion. Interviewer: “Okay, so you did a little bit of what the rangers do but the expectation is that you’re not really running around in the jungle with them.” Right, I’m not gonna be a ranger, wear ranger tabs, and stuff like that so, lurps or whatever they call them now. Interviewer: “Alright, so now you do the training with the unit and then now what do they do with you?” (19:57) Well they were getting ready to assign me to a unit, well then somehow somebody got a call that said “1st infantry division needs replacements.” So they loaded up 18 of us on a Caribou 16 and flew us down to Dĩ An, or actually it’s camp alpha in Saigon, and then I got assigned to the 8th Battalion, 6th Artillery in Vietnam, 1st Infantry Division. Interviewer: “Okay, and now this was gonna be- And then what kind of guns do you have there now?” There they flew me out in the field cause they were out in the field, they weren’t in a base camp, and I’m on a towed 155 howitzer, and I was assigned to the base piece number four gun. Sergeant Morgan was our gun chief, section leader, and so that was my home for the next year �Jamieson, Jimmy and three days so. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you join that gun crew, what role do you have on the crew?” I was considered- They just assigned me a number, I was a number two man which is the powder man, but an 11 man crew there’s six of us so you’re the powder man, you’re the projectile man, you’re the truck driver, you’re the machine gunner on top, you’re- You do everything, the radio man, everybody does everything, and so numbers didn’t mean anything. Interviewer: “Alright, and what’s your- When they first, when they fly you out, you’re going out in a helicopter to join the unit in the field?” Yup, on a huey. Interviewer: “Okay and when you kind of first come in and join what is your impression or what do you see when you land?” (21:47) Holy- What am I getting into. The helicopter ride was kind of cool, you know you take off from a base camp and it’s just really nice but when you go out into the field because of these snipers and what not. Now you gotta remember this is not a- There’s no- The perimeter is not much there’s no concertina wire, very seldom concertina wire. It’s just- Oh geez, there’s howitzers there and what not, you know and holy crap, but they come in and they go around and they land like right now. It’s just like you’re a rock falling right out of the sky because they don’t want to get shot at, and yeah so when they come in, they come in fast, tail down, set it down. When they take off the nose drops and man they’re gone, they’re- Yeah it’s like riding in an elevator about twice as fast, you know. Interviewer: “Alright, and so they just get you off the helicopter and then what kind of reception do you get when you join the unit?” �Jamieson, Jimmy “Oh are you the new grunt? Are you the new guy?” Alright where’s the C.P? “Over there” and “Go report in.” So you’d go report in to the first sergeant and tell them who you are and they welcome you into the beautiful southern vacation land, you know and blah blah blah blah blah, grab your blankity blank and come with me, and you know. So the first sergeant took me down there, he introduced me to Sergeant Morgan and that was it, and then he did the rest. Interviewer: “Alright, so did Sergeant Morgan and the other people in the crew, did they actually try to orient you and tell you what to do?” Oh yeah, yep they were very friendly “Where are you from?” You know, “What do you do?” Blah blah blah blah blah so you know it’s like reading a- “Oh we finally got something to read, we got a new guy we’ll ask him questions.” Interviewer: “Alright so you’re not being shut out by the group or anything else like that, you’re right in there.” (24:00) Nope, they were very friendly guys, got to know them a lot yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and so now- And how many guns were in the battery?” Six. Interviewer: “Okay and were they all together at the time you joined them?” Yeah, we were- Of course they’re all laid out and what we- Usually we use what they call a lazy W, and the bursting radius of a 155 howitzer is 65 meters, so they’re laid out in a lazy W like this and then back and then like this, and we’re base piece we’re number four gun here. So everything overlapped, so the guns are like 30 yards- 30 meters apart, so that when the shells land they overlap and anything in that bursting radius is dead. If the shrapnel doesn’t get you, the concussion will, it’ll blow your eyeballs right out of your head. So yeah that’s how you laid the guns, and they weren’t GPS like they are now, this was aiming stakes so you’d have to put �Jamieson, Jimmy aiming stakes out and stuff like that. So yeah it was really interesting to- And here again the 155’s, they’re up on a pedestal too just like the 105’s with the spades, and so you hope you don’t end up in a base camp someplace where they’ll fall through, which ours did, but anyway yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and now in the field like would they dig gun pits that the guns would go in, or were they just sitting up there on the ground?” Just sitting up in the air. Interviewer: “So high profile and people could see it?” Very high profile. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the first night like?” (25:43) Scary, very scary. It’s- On my part, the guys had been there for a while were old hat, you know, and you keep score. Well “I’m a short timer.” or “I’m a long timer” You know, and you keep calendar and- But, jumpy, very jumpy “What’s this noise? What’s that?” Oh that’s just somebody over there, a sniper or guns would go off and you’d come up off the floor, and very nerve wracking which didn’t help my stuttering any, and you know “Fire mission! Fire mission!” Well then okay now what- You know, I’ve never trained on a 155. So they didn’t put me on powder right away because putting the proper powder charge in there, I was a loader for quite a while, you just picked the round up and threw it, and now you have loaders but they’re too slow. So you gotta remember I’m like 118 pounds, and I’m picking up a 97 pound projectile, and you put on a three pound fuse so it’s basically 100 pounds, and I’m picking it up and putting it into the tube and then launching it, loading it with– And you gotta jam it into the lands and grooves so it doesn’t fall back out, then put your powder charge in, then close the breach block, and then you’ve gotta put a primer in there, which is actually a blank of a 38 special. So you put that in there, close the primer thing, and then there’s a lanyard, and then the gunner would, you know, if they say “Fire!” then you’d pull the lanyard and the gun recoils back. So I did– I was a loader and I’d pull– I’d fire the gun, stuff that didn’t have a whole lot of responsibility to it because I �Jamieson, Jimmy was the newbie. Interviewer: “Right, did you have fire missions that first night?” Oh absolutely, almost every night you’re shooting H & I’s, harassment and interdiction. Interviewer: “Interdiction, yeah. What’s the purpose of that?” Suspected BC concentrations, whether the bird dog or a patrol had seen a Viet Cong patrol out some place or N.V.A and so you would just shoot out and hopefully there’s somebody still there yet or stop them from coming in. So you would shoot– Each gun was assigned, and whether you shoot two rounds, three rounds, if there was a fort observer out there and if he noticed some action during the day and all of a sudden there was more action then they would plan– And it wouldn’t be like nine o’clock at night or at ten o’clock we’re gonna shoot. It’d be some weird “At 11:37 we’re gonna shoot three rounds.” or it was at 2:18 in the morning, I mean. So you just never knew, and then if you get a fire mission in between there then you’re up, so it was not at all uncommon for us to go a couple days without sleep. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you join the unit what area are you operating in?” (29:13) I believe then I was around Quan Loi up by the Black Virgin Mountain, Tay Ninh, Quan Loi. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re kind of to north and a little bit maybe west of Saigon?” Yeah, 40, 50 miles north of Saigon. Interviewer: “Okay, about how far from the Cambodian border do you think you were?” We were east of the border probably about the same, 40, 50, 60 miles. Interviewer: “Alright, and what kind of activity was going on or what sort of enemy �Jamieson, Jimmy presence was there?” Our job was to– Amongst different specific operations, our job was to kind of keep the supply line on Highway One, Thunder Road, Highway 13, Ho Chi Minh Trail, it has many names, but our job with the– For quite a while we were attached to the special forces guys, or they attached to us. Our battery commander, Captain Pierpoint wanted to skip major and go right to lieutenant colonel, and so he volunteered us to be their main gun support. So wherever those folks went looking for trouble, and they usually found it, that was our job and they would attack supply routes or they had to go get some N.V.A person or whatever, and try to get some prisoners and so a lot of times they would fly into us and then go out in the field for a couple days or they’d be dropped off out in a field and then come into us. So I’ve got pictures of an A team or a B team marching off into the– They would follow our night patrols out, ambush patrols out, and then once they get into the jungle– I mean it looks like holy cow look at all these guys going out there, you know. Well they would break off and go on their mission but if there was people watching, Viet Cong watching, it’s just one group going out and so you’ve got to be careful because you really didn’t know a lot of time who was where, and so if we got hit you just kind of spray and pray out there and hopefully you don’t hit your own folks, you know. Interviewer: “Alright, now you’re talking about patrols going out so would you have infantry that were with you that would be going out?” (31:44) Yeah, when we got our– Once we get rid of the toads, in April of ‘67 they gave us M-109 or 155 propelled howitzers, self propelled, they’re now called the paladin and they’re GPS oriented, but anyways, we had the CAB with us the quarter CAB, and they would go out on ambush patrol when we had the towed howitzers, the commo section or the ammo group, you know. Those guys would go out on patrol, it’s more of a listening post an L.P Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re not– You basically, so the people who are part of the artillery would be going out doing small patrols as opposed to the larger–” Yeah the CAB, sometimes the CAB would go out with an 8 man patrol, 10 man, 12 man �Jamieson, Jimmy depending on what kind of ambush it was, and how much activity there was in the area, as to how many men went, and they would let us volunteer to go with them. Just to get off the guns, so we could get some sleep because ambush patrol they get more sleep than we do. So it was an experience, the CAB guys couldn’t figure out why we wanted to go on ambush, you know because they thought we had it made and you know tell them “How much sleep do you get?” Interviewer: “So we’re looking at your year in Vietnam so you have about a four month period when you got the towed 155 howitzers and so at that point is this before you start supporting the Special Forces, or do the Special Forces connect with you while you still have those?” The Special Forces guys we got connected with them with the self propelled howitzers. Interviewer: “Okay, so initially you’re supporting those regular line infantry units that are up kind of patrolling. Okay, and then do they get, during that first four months there, do they get involved in any kind of large operations or sweeps?” (33:45) Yeah we got– Just before we got our self propelled they were danger close and so they wanted one gun to fire. So they called on us, our base piece, and we fired 120 continuous rounds just as fast as we could fire them. Once we had zeroed in on them– And that was quite a mission, 120 rounds you’re hustling, and so that’s when I got my first Army combat/ACM it’s called Army Commendation Medal. One of the brigadier generals came to our gun club, or gun camp battery and each one of the guys in the gun section got one, so all six of us got a– Interviewer: “So why were they using just one gun?” Because of the area they were in, if you got– Remember the bursting radius, so we were danger close so they wanted the rounds danger close. So if you get six guns firing now you’re– It’s too much. Interviewer: “It’s a bigger area you’re blanketing.” �Jamieson, Jimmy So one gun is what they wanted and so they would give us the corrections either bring it in, left, right, you know out, back, but we just keep firing. Once we were on, keep them coming, so apparently we had a bunch of them in the open or something and so that was probably one of the hardest missions that we had to do. Interviewer: “Okay, now with the towed guns did you have trucks that would pull them or track vehicles?” The deuce and a half Army trucks. Interviewer: “Okay, and then how easy or hard was it to move around with those? Was there a decent road network there?” (35:33) No, gravel roads the– What we could tell was the Corps of Engineers, combat engineers. A lot of the times the mine sweeper would go out ahead of us because of the land mines, now they call them IEDs or something so, but they’d sometimes put a tank out in front of us on a convoy, and if the land mines weren’t large enough to take out a tank that’s fine but they’d take out our deuce and a half’s and stuff like that. So armored personnel characters, but then when we got the self propelled– Now you gotta remember we’re only 27 tons as opposed to 60 ton tank. So with two inches of aluminum armor, it opened us up like a sardine can. So we had two layers of sandbags on the floor and we would alternate, Jerry Putnam and I would alternate being the driver because if one driver all the time, well chances of him getting killed so we alternated. So if you’re not driving then you’re the machine gunner on top, so that 50 became–My deuce and I became real good friends. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you have the towed guns, in that period, you’re maybe not as close to the Cambodian border as you would be later?” Right, yep. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Okay, now did you normally have any infantry that stayed with you or do you provide your own security?” Yep, that was the 2nd Infantry, there was a unit called Light Horse which was a mortar platoon, they were with us but when you get attacked from the rear the mortars aren’t much good up close. So then they sent up a couple of armored personnel carriers, and then they gave up a couple of jeeps with M-60’s on them. So we were just kind of a– Whatever our commander could grab, you know, and we spent most of our time up around the Michelin Rubber Tree Plantations along the Cambodian border keeping that open, trying to– Cause we owned it during the day and the Viet Cong and NVA owned it at night, and so we had a lot of fire missions all along there and at that point with the towed vehicles we didn’t have any need to go into Cambodia so to speak. Interviewer: “Yeah, so you were– But now while you were with the towed vehicles, would your camps get attacked at night?” (38:20) Oh yeah, we– There we did have concertina wire, you would put– You would put claymores out, guys would hang stuff on the wire, you know empty pop cans with stones in them, you know stuff like that. So we put out an LP, we call it a listening post, and then we’d put other guys way out and there’s other stories that when we got self propelleds other things that we had done with the Cav, but yeah with the towed vehicles and then you gotta remember to that when you have to really swing guns around you gotta lift those spades up, and then twist the gun, and then relay it again. So you gotta run these flashlights out and so that the gunner can lay out– Line the sights up on the two flashlights. Well I was running the back one out and there was some concertina wire back there that I had forgotten about and I got tangled up in it, you know, and the flashlight goes flying and that’s how I got all these scars on my face and so they literally had to cut me, the more I thrashed around the more I got tangled up in it. So you’re of course just sweating the adrenaline, it’s hot, it’s at night, and they were cutting me out of it because I’m just full of blood. They thought I got hit by something and so they cut me out of it and the medic he’s wiping me off and he’s “Awe Jesus Jamie,” He says, “You know you just got puncture wounds, get out.” You know, no big deal. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Now, so again– Well in that first phase there while you’re still with artillery, did you face any serious attacks or just very stray sniper fire or mortars?” Oh yeah, we would have mortars, rockets come in. They would come in danger close where you would actually have to open up with an M-60,guys would come up and lay between the guns and it– Usually we were firing over a ravine, so you can see the flashes from the mortars and then you hear the shh-tump! You know and then you could see the rocket taking off and so you’d duck, you know and I’m not one much to duck, I’d go for the gun. Interviewer: “Okay, but would they actually make any ground attacks, would you get people trying to infiltrate the wire and getting through?” (40:50) Yeah, we never had anybody with the towed vehicles come in that close, which is good for me because it acclimated me into Vietnam. Your body has to get acclimated to the humidity and the heat and the monsoon seasons, and so of course you’re spitting tacks because, you know, “What the hell we just get here we gotta fill all these damn–” You know with the towed vehicles, the howitzers, you have to fill a lot of sandbags, and then when you get marching orders to move out you can’t leave them sandbags. So somebody else would come in and pick them up, or they’d say “Just take a machete and slice them up.” and some of the stuff, flashlight batteries was one of them, we change flashlight batteries and just throw them away, well come to find out flashlight batteries the Viet Cong would pick them up and then solder them together and then use it because in the sunlight they would recharge a little bit, enough to ignite a landmine or a booby trap. So we had to take a machete or a knife and cut the batteries up so they couldn’t be used, I mean– And the brass sometimes with the 105 guys they would leave their brass, well they would take that brass and cut it up and use it for shrapnel. Interviewer: “So every time you move you’ve got to police the area and clean everything up.” Yup. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Okay, alright and now you then make the switch– I guess, now while you were again with the towed unit and you’re kind of more in the middle of the country, were there a lot of civilians around?” Yes, sometimes just set up alongside the road, sometimes you’re out adjacent to the rice paddies, you could generally tell if you were gonna be hit at night because the civilians– There wouldn’t be any, they’d be gone, and then usually during the day “Okay it’s gonna be a good night, we’re not gonna get hit tonight.” Because the civilians and their oxes, you know, and their water buffalo– But if you didn’t see anybody, you knew you were gonna get hit. Interviewer: “Okay, now did the civilians make any effort to interact with you, either sell you things or anything else like that?” (43:07) Oh my goodness, yeah pineapples. It got to the point where they would inject pineapples with formaldehyde or battery acid, try to sell you beer, the tiger 33 beer because we didn’t have any ice, you had to drink it warm but what we ended having to do is take the beer bottle and tip it upside down and then watch the glass go to the neck before you bought it, because what they would do is pop the top on it, and then take a clear like– I’m just gonna use like a mayonnaise jar cause it’s clear glass, and pulverize it to a powder and pour that in your Coca-Cola or whatever and then you would think it’s sand. “God I’m so thirsty” You know, and what do you do you’re drinking that glass and it gets into your intestines and then it lacerates your intestines and your bowels and all that kind of stuff. So now you’ve gotta get out of the field, so we learned that real quick and eating pineapples and you know you just didn’t buy it. They’d give you sugar cane, you’d buy short stocks of sugar cane that had glass in it and of course you’re chewing on it you’re thinking “God it’s sand.” Well we learned otherwise. So now we can’t– We couldn’t buy anything from anybody. Interviewer: “And were there– Was there other kinds of stuff available and would prostitutes try to approach you?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah, yeah that was– $5, $5 you know, G.I number one girl and G.I number one– No you’re number 10, $5, you tried to chew them down and once the battery commander found out about them coming in then of course that stopped real quick, but we had a few guys that caught VD, thankfully I– That’s not worth it for me but yeah. We’d have a barber come in, cut your hair, you’d stand there with a rifle while he cuts your buddy’s hair, and I got a picture of Tom Novickus getting his haircut and then it was my turn. So I’d give him the rifle and then he’d stand there and watch him because they use these hand clippers and then they take a razor to trim around and they didn’t want you to slit your neck– Throat. So you’d make sure that he didn’t do that. Interviewer: “And was this a period where they were also selling drugs and that sort of thing?” (45:40) They tried to sell us drugs, you could get a bag of marijuana about that big around, about that tall for a dollar and a half, and I was talking this with another fella yesterday on the radio, on these T.V shows I don’t know where they get that from– This guy I was talking to was a colonel and he was a– You know who he is, but he was a battery commander or company commander and he was a brigade commander and– With the big red one, and we never saw that, we weren’t allowed to smoke it in the first place, but you had to be on your toes. I mean you had to be alert 100% of the time, and you had to depend on your partner, your buddy, and other guys in the gun crew. I mean if they needed help you went over there and helped them, if our gun wasn’t picked for the fire mission then you helped them. I mean that was– So you had to be alert you had to be in touch with all your faculties. Interviewer: “And that’s pretty consistent and even in periods where drug use got a lot worse the units that were actually out in the field, and you’re out in the field you’re not in some big base camp, there you had relatively low amounts of that sort of thing and not when anybody needed to be on. So anyway, but I can ask these questions in part because they’re part of the stereotype and so forth and I don’t know well okay do you see that or not see that and so forth. Okay, so are there other things that happened while you were �Jamieson, Jimmy with the towed unit or other impressions from that period that kind of stand out in your mind?” Yeah, when you’d move into an area we would try to have the combat engineers go in, because you don’t know what you’re moving into because you’ve got to lay these guns and sometimes there’d be a 105 unit with us, sometimes the eight inchers would be with us or the 175s the long toms. So you had to be real careful of what you’re moving into, one time we moved into an area that was a Viet Cong base camp, and so we set the guns all up and we’re in fire mission and our right spade fell through a tunnel and– The spade broke through the tunnel unbeknownst to us, you know, the gun tipped over and went “Oh my God!” So of course now everybody’s grabbing their rifle, they ceased the fire mission, they sent the infantry out the tunnel rats, you know, just maybe 40, 50 yards away and there’s a tunnel right there that was missed. So now the tunnel rats are going in there with their flashlights and their 45s and you’d hear a thunk! You know there was actually BC in the tunnels yet. So that was one of the more hair raising– You know a howitzer tips over, I mean you know, we broke through the tunnel we’re right on top of them after we’d blown it– You know, that’s kind of what you did you just blow the hell out of an area and then move in there, well it got missed. Interviewer: “If they’re underground then they may still be there, okay. Alright, now you make the switch over now and you start– And now you get self propelled guns, now they’re on– You have tracked vehicles with the guns mounted on them and you can kind of drive around more and– Initially did the battery, when you first started supporting the Special Forces, was the battery kind of on its own?” (49:16) Yeah, we were– Here again you gotta remember who our battery commander was, was Captain Pierpoint who through ranks– This is a– I don’t wanna say a pilot program because I don’t know how long it had been going on whether they were using the gun’s other units, but he volunteered us to do this one. So it was probably three months and so we would go on what they called S&D’s, search and destroy, recon missions where you just go through a village and sometimes are 85% VC sympathizers or maybe they’re on our side sympathizing. You could pretty much tell if they were a VC sympathizer, you would see male, guys, boys around. If they were �Jamieson, Jimmy sympathizers for the United States there wouldn’t be any males around because the VC would either kill them or draft them into their– So there’d just be a bunch of women around. So you learn these little things but yeah when you’re going through with the self propelled and then they put the CABs with us because we were getting hit from the rear a lot. Interviewer: “Okay, and you’ve heard of them as the Quarter CABs, 1st Battalion, 4th Cavalry Regiment, but an armored cavalry unit so they–” Armored cavalry unit, yep. Interviewer: “So they have tanks and armored personnel carriers.” (50:50) Yep and– Yeah you don’t mess with those boys, we have them– They shoot first, ask questions later, we like them, they– We didn’t have to pull any night guard, they did everything, they would lead the convoy. Yeah we got in trouble on a convoy, Captain Pierpoint was leading the convoy in a jeep and he was shooting monkeys with his personal– We could carry personal sidearms then, shooting at monkeys with a 38 special snub nose, and so when you hear that you recon by fire. So this one shoots this way and every– You know, so the command and control chopper had a colonel in it up above, over seeing the convoy, and so he stopped the convoy. Wanted to know what the hell was going on and of course everybody opened up, you know the CABs opened up with the 50s and the 60s and we opened up with the 50s and so on, and come to find out he was just shooting at monkeys as we were going. Interviewer: “I take it he only did that once?” Yes, yeah he was– He got his butt reamed right in front of us so they– I got pictures of the chopper landing cause we’re like the 2nd vehicle back and– But we had no clue what was going on, I mean. Interviewer: “Alright, was there a period there where you were operating with Special Forces before you had the CAB attached to you?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah, that’s where we got the CAB, we had a mortar platoon and some infantry guys but when you’re shooting support for the CAB– Or for the Special Forces guys then the Viet Cong surmise that if we take a small contingency and attack the howitzer unit from the back, they’d have to swing tubes around to protect themselves. So that would draw the fire away from the Green Berets and then they figured that they could get the Green Berets. Well sometimes we were in Cambodia and sometimes we weren’t, but try to find another artillery unit that would relieve us takes time, and then they gotta get acclimated to shooting over there too. So in the meantime we’ve got a fire fight going behind us because we can’t swing tubes around so you take your M60 or whatever and your thump-gun and you’d go help the infantry out and then now that’s reducing the amount of folks we have to run our guns. So somebody- Apparently Captain Pierpoint got the idea that maybe we should have a CAB unit, something that’s mobile. Interviewer: “Alright, now you got involved at a time that isn’t actually using machine guns and so forth to defend your position with him. You’ve got some pictures that we were looking at before the session started, can you talk about that incident and what happened there?” (54:00) Well we had been hit several times as you saw in the pictures. So the rockets and mortars started coming in and the guys were going towards the mortar holes, well I was pretty cocky back then, well I still am but– I wasn’t gonna die in a mortar hole. So I ran towards the gun and I got into the gun and I was loading it up and then in ours you can– The turret on the 50 goes all the way around and then the hatch cover flops up and you can put the gun on either side of the hatch cover, and since I’m right handed I had the hatch on this side to the left of the gun in case they’re shooting at me. So I went in there, and each gun carries 1500 rounds of 50 cal, so I was splicing you pick a cartridge out and put the next link in there and put it in. So I was hooking up a couple of machine gun belts, and then I took off the top. Well then here comes Sergeant Morgan our staff sergeant and he’s just “What blankity blank are you doing?” I said “I’m not dying in a fox hole, so he says “I’ll feed you.” So he’s linking belts together while I’m firing, and I’m strafing that jungle that you saw there, and the bodies are coming, cause there’s no concertina wire. We pulled our listening posts in, so they’re coming in and we’re spraying. Well once I started firing �Jamieson, Jimmy then other guns, guys went to the 50s and they were close where you couldn’t drop tubes down and shoot. So now we’ve got M-60’s going, we've got thump-guns going, gun personnel are now infantry, and so I fired all 1500 rounds of my 50, burnt the barrel up, changed barrels out, and got sick as a goat. You saw the thing that I– This was part of my PTSD, the nightmares and flashbacks and through counseling and other things that I’ve done I can talk about it. Humans, animals period, are not designed to kill their own if you look at two rams battering their heads and then two deer– Two bucks fighting, they don’t kill each other they just wear each other out and the strongest survives. Humans are the same way, we are not designed to kill our species. So when you do that, in my case, I got sick I mean over the side of the gun. Interviewer: “And did that happen at the time of the fight or was it the next day?” (57:07) Right the minute I saw that body, and the adrenaline is going and you’re shooting and– Here I am I’m still shooting, see that’s part of it, I puked all over the side of the gun and what not and then daylight came and you see the carnage out there– Now this is field artillery, according to the psychiatrist I talked to that I’m not supposed to see that because I’m artillery, you know. You put guys' intestines in because they got hit by shrapnel so they’re laying there and you put it in, but anyways so Captain Pierpoint came over and asked me if I had hit anything and I said “Yeah, I’m pretty sure I did.” And so you can see the puke on the side of the gun and he says “Well, when you calm down” He said “Clean the gun up, pick up your brass.” You know but he was a– Anyways, that’s where I got my first Bronze Star. Interviewer: “Right, and that was when you– One of the pictures you have shows this big swatch of cloth that someone’s holding up and there’s a bunch of rows, parallel lines, of bullet holes and that was from one of these guys you hit.” Yes. Interviewer: “Can you explain what that was or what the cloth was?” �Jamieson, Jimmy The Viet Cong and NVA, NVA have you know, Viet Cong don’t but they wear like a cumberbund, a sash, and they normally carried two, three days of rice and then this sauce called nuoc cham or something like that and it stinks it’s just fish, ground up fish and it stinks, and then they carry water and then on the back of the cumberbund they have have like a poncho liner, about the same size. That’s something that they wrap up in when they sleep and it’s folded all up and then folded in half and it’s– The cumberbund sash holds it on their back and it comes around. (59:09) Well I had raked this guy with the 50 and literally cut him in half and so when you went out to do the body count, you’re again– Say what you want about body counts, either they’re inflated or deflated, they took a few of us from each gun section and you’d go out and do a body count, and so the guys took this off and then we picked up all the grenades and machine guns and everything that was there and we put it on a couple of big mortar holes and took photographs of it to show what we had captured, and it’s in the 1st Infantry Division yearbook, it’s in there and so, not that I’m making this stuff up but they– I had a couple of the fellas open it up so I could take a picture of it and so that’s kind of the proof that I have and other pictures were confiscated because they could be used for, you know, body counts and you can’t show them so. Interviewer: “Yeah, but you basically have the cloth where you have these lines of bullets because the cloth was folded over on itself and the bullet just went through the fabric multiple times and made that bizarre kind of pattern. Yeah, so that is something that’s not what we associate with artillery units but one thing about Vietnam is different people do different things at different times, and in your case you had a battery that was pretty much on its own out in the field and it came under enemy attack, but the other thing then is one thing the Army did more of then it gets credit for is it adjusted. So now you’ve got some armored cavalry supporting you and they’re providing security and they let you kind of go where you need to go.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you had the cavalry unit with you did the enemy make further attempts to attack you?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Oh sure, they– At one point the Cav guys, now I don’t know where they got this stuff from, but they brought in a twin 40. Interviewer: “Which is?” Off the anti-aircraft, off a ship. Interviewer: “So a 40 millimeter had anti-aircraft cannons that could be repeating fire.” Right and this– It was on a– It was a twin 40 off a ship and they mounted it in an M-48 tankInterviewer: “Chassis.” (1:01:35) Chassis, okay they brought in a quad 50. Interviewer: “So a 50 caliber machine gun, four of them.” Four of the 50 cals and so– Because we were getting hit so much, apparently we had pissed off somebody and so when we get hit they’d open up with those twin 40s and the quad 50s, and it was interesting. At night you never knew what was gonna happen, very seldom did we ge hit during the day so– And the armament that came in to protect us was– And then there’s a thing called a mad minute and we got to go online with the twin 40 and shoot at trees out there and that was just– It was a relaxing time, just before dark you’d do a mad minute. Interviewer: “And that’s when everybody fires at the same time?” Everybody fires whatever you wanna bring up and shoot and then we had a competition between the twin 40 and our 155 howitzer shooting at a tree, a big tree out there in the jungle and you could see when the twin 40s would hit it [shooting noise] but when we hit it, now you got about �Jamieson, Jimmy a seven inch 100 round going through this tree, the tree just literally exploded, I mean– So that kind of shut the guys up on the– “You guys can’t hit that” Oh yeah? Interviewer: “Alright, now what sort of impression did you have of the Special Forces people?” Respect the hell out of them, we didn’t get a chance to talk to them, they were in and gone or they’re in us and gone but they just looked like people you didn’t want to mess with. I mean they were– They were proudly off duty, they were kindest people you ever wanna meet, but when they came into us either from the jungle or– And then going to the jungle, they didn’t associate with us, we had no idea what their mission was, they weren’t there just but a few minutes and if they were there for say an hour or more they were up by the CP, the command post. So as an individual on the gun sections we had no idea what they were doing, we had, you know we had no idea what their mission was. Interviewer: “Now you mentioned at times operating around the rubber plantation, were there rules about what you could do or not do because those were still functioning plantations sometimes?” (1:04:20) They had little white signs, stakes in the ground like that, that said “U.S government do not destroy rubber trees.” Yeah right, you know, okay fine you know. So we’d– The CAB wanted to get into a particular place where they thought they might get ambushed, so they would try to get a tank in there. Well you can’t, you know, get in and then maneuver around and turn the tubes and so on, well a couple of rubber trees were in the way, they had to back up, drop the tube that 90 millimeter, and blow the tree right out of the ground, you know. “There, okay now we’re good.” I mean they didn’t give a real– I mean. Interviewer: “Would the enemy use the plantations as places to recover or have bases in them?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah, you would normally– Rubber trees are, because the ground is kind of cleared and it’s single canopy, and so in our case we can’t be near the rubber trees because you can’t– We gotta be able to back off so we can shoot over them, okay. So the CAB guys would get in by the rubber trees, and then we’re more out in the open. So we could protect anything in the open here but not coming out of the rubber trees so that’s where they were and they would move their tanks and APs around every night, you know, if we’re there for a week on a mission then they would tank here tonight, well they’d be over there or be further in or be back out and APCs would be over here maybe and they were never in the same place twice. Interviewer: “Okay, do they not want the enemy to mark their positions was that the–” Right, right we– One night we got rocketed and a tank probably 40 yards behind us, seven guys got killed, they were sleeping on and around the tank and they took a rocket right in the turret. Never knew it was coming and the turret came off and that was– That’s another time, you know you see flashbacks, but you know just unexpected all of a sudden here’s this big explosion. Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re in Vietnam basically, what end of ‘66 to end of ‘67? Is that–” (1:06:40) Right, just before the Tet I left. Interviewer: “Okay, now was there any kind of rhythm or pattern to the amount of activity? Were there phases? Was there some chunk of that time where it was busier or it was all pretty much the same?” Yeah, let’s see Tet was January 31st, probably around October when the build up started. They were probing the weak spots and pretty much every other night we’d get hit, and they were– Because the supply work– They were coming in and so for the build up for the Tet in January, January 31st was Tet, and I was supposed to leave the field December 9th and we got hit December 8th just after midnight, and we lost three howitzers. I mean they hit us hard, and that’s when I got my second Bronze Star, so they extended me three days. Only choppers in and out �Jamieson, Jimmy was for ammo and water and we were eating MREs–Well they’re not MREs it was K rations then, so– And Captain Palmer was our battery commander then, and he said “If you want out” You know, if you want out “The only way you’re gonna get outta here Jamie is if you’re the gunner on-” Our ammo tracks then was an Amtrak was a track vehicle, so I’ve got pictures of me sitting up there. I’ve got to be a machine gunner on a convoy, I can't take a helicopter outta there so I’m a machine gunner on a 50 on an ammo– Going to get ammo, and that’s how I got out. I was three days late getting home. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you get the Bronze Star for?” (1:08:30) Basically killing people, I mean that’s what they give medals for. Interviewer: “But was it working the artillery piece or was it for working the machine guns?” It was the machine guns on the 50 and the ACM was working the artillery with the towed vehicles. So it wasn’t for valor or anything I didn’t do anything that heroic, I was just doing my job and I kind of initiated– Okay, I shoot first, ask questions later I learned that from the CAB, you know it’s better to– Instead of asking permission to ask for forgiveness. So, what are you gonna do, send me to Vietnam? I’m already here. What are you gonna give me an article 15? At least I’m alive, so that was my whole deal. Interviewer: “So you basically started shooting on your own and it turned out to be a good idea?” Yep, and the company commander, battery commander, would say– You know because I’d start where I could see and then work my way up into the tree for snipers, and then every gun has a field of fire– And I equate this when I teach my hunter safety classes that if you’re hunting with people you have a field of fire, you don’t overlap– You know, so when you lay the gun and you get in a position every– Myself and a couple other guys we’d all talk about “Okay, I’m gonna cover from here to here, and you’re gonna cover overlapping from there to here.” And so if we �Jamieson, Jimmy get hit you’re not gonna be, you know, and then you’re supposed to know where the listening posts are and stuff like that but the battery commander says “Well what happens if we had listening posts out?” I said “Well I had hoped that by the time this ruckus started that you had called them in already.” And with the CAB– What CAB would do is they would send out their LPs and then put claymores out. You did that every night, put claymores out, well then what they would do is after dark they’d call them back in, and what happened is the Viet Cong would go out there and turn the claymores around, so that if you heard a ruckus and you fired the claymore you’d blow yourself up. Well the CAB they’d bring the listening posts back in and then they had infrared, so they could see them out there. So they’d take the tube and they’d get three or four of them lined up and they’d cut loose with that 90 and blow them all, you know that you’re engaged, rules of engagement you know you gotta be fired upon–No, no. Interviewer: “Not out there.” (1:11:30) No, so they just– Interviewer: “Now you mentioned going into Cambodia, do you know that your own unit actually went into Cambodia and did you know that at the time?” We did not know it, Captain Pierpoint might have, but how we found out is that Fire Direction Control, you know they know where they are in order to give you the inflection and quadrant but as being on the gun we did not know that until afterwards. They would tell us, I mean, “Well we’re in Cambodia now.” You know five clicks, ten clicks, half mile, two miles, five miles that’s about as far as we ever got, but see that’s where the Green Beret guys were and Johnson is telling everybody that there's nobody in Cambodia. Yeah, okay. Interviewer: “Now you’ve mentioned here a couple of different battery commanders, a Captain Pierpoint and a Captain Palmer, was there a changeover then while you were with the unit?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah there was in ‘67 they split the batteries up so that when people rotated in and out of the battery that you wouldn’t have a whole battery of young people. So they split us up but apparently when I came there they served a year tour like I did but their tour ended. So then we got a new battery commander, we got a new executive officer, new first sergeant, all that kind of stuff. So Captain Palmer was West Point and– Or Captain Pierpoint was West Point, Captain Palmer was OCS and– Difference, big difference in commanders, battery commanders, Captain Pierpoint is one of those guys where you would like to salute out in the field, he wanted to do the field inspections, he– You know, and field inspection on what I have a mess kit, a couple of canteens, a bayonet, you know backpack– And I don’t have any of that stuff, we didn’t have any trenching tools, we didn’t– We don’t have enough to have an inspection, you know, but what are you gonna lay it out on a sleeping bag? I mean– Interviewer: “Would he actually do this or was it–” (1:13:50) Oh yeah, you know “Clean it” Clean it with what? You know we haven’t had a shower in a week I mean what do– You know that dust and dirt gets in your pistol belt and your canteen cover, you know cleaning rifles, we’re always cleaning our rifles– Oh geez, so– No way to stop that either. Interviewer: “Well it’s not that loud so–” Okay, so anyways they– We’d do an inspection and what I did is the VFW would send me cans– You can edit this out. Interviewer: “Oh yeah.” They would send me cans of Dri-Slide– There, so it’s like a little can of three in one oil and what it is, is liquid graphite. Okay and so it’s got a long needle on it, well they would send me that and I would clean my M-14 with it and when you stood inspection the guy– All we had to clean stuff with is fuel oil. So put your rifle in the fuel oil and you clean it and of course then the flash suppressor would rust and that sort of thing. Well mine didn’t have any rust on it, so I’m standing in inspection and Lieutenant Eckert who was the new– He was ROTC, reserve officer– �Jamieson, Jimmy So he’d look at my rifle and said “Jamie that’s dirty.” and I said “No sir, that's Dri-Slide.” “That’s what?” and I said “Liquid graphite.” And he says “Well you see me after formation.” Now we’re out in the field, so okay he had come down to the gun battery and he says “I wanna see this Dri-Slide.” So I took out this little can, black and white can that says Dri-Slide on it, so he says “Well I’m gonna have to confiscate that.” So okay he takes it, goes up to the CP, you know, and he’s cleaning his side arm with it and stuff, you put it on, wipe it off and it’s just slippery– You can’t wipe it, it just spreads. So here comes Captain Palmer, he says “Lieutenant Eckert said you had this Dri-Slide.” “Well, no sir, he has it.” “Oh, okay.” So unbeknownst to them the VFW sent me a box and there’s six cans in a box, so I’m– You know, our gun section is cleaning it, so now we’re inspection again and all our weapons are all clean, and so Captain Palmer wanted to know if I had more of that, I said “Yeah.” He says “Well that’s not authorized, I’m gonna have to confiscate that.” So now he has a can, Lieutenant Eckert has a can, so I’m passing stuff out so I get another box at mail call. So they wanna know if that’s Dri-Slide, rattle rattle, open it up, yup. He made me give each gun section a can of Dri-Slide, so there went my six cans. So that’s the kind of stuff– You know depending on who– Interviewer: “Okay, well you had said initially Pierpoint was the one that was a stickler for this stuff, but now you’re mentioning Palmer.” (1:17:20) Captain Pierpoint would– If you had a little bit of rust on your bayonet, I mean he would– And we had our own personal knives too that we carried cause I mean it’s pretty hard to throw a bayonet but we could carry our personal knives, boot knives and stuff, some guys had throwing knives. We would practice throwing, here to the curtain we could throw knives, we put a Lucky Strike package up on a target, sliding board, and I got real– Most of us got real good at throwing knives and so– But Captain Pierpoint was, you know, “Polish your boots.” With what? You know, “Wipe the dust off them.” Jungle boots, you’d wear the same boots for so long that your feet would bleed and crack and you very seldom took your boots off, but he was a stickler he wanted, not so much clean uniforms, but boy you better be shaven and you know, if nothing else wash your face. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Now was he good at his job? I mean in terms of actually commanding a battery.” Yeah, he was good at that cause he volunteered us for everything, well then we would get guests and other commanders, you know, and so that’s how he wanted to skip major and go right to lieutenant colonel and so we had to be sharp. I mean, you know blouse your pants, you know don’t roll them up and fold them up, you know. Yeah it was– Interviewer: “So was it a relief to get Captain Palmer instead?” Yes, he ran a tight ship but somehow we got a volleyball net and a volleyball and so we could play volleyball, no baseball, no softball, none of that stuff because we just didn’t have the room for it, but we could put a volleyball net up and play volleyball and we’d have little competitions between the gun sections or if there happened to be another unit like with the CAB guys. Lieutenant Eckert must’ve got that cause he spiked the ball and drove a guy’s two fingers over their knuckles and that guy went to Japan, never heard from him again. So yeah there was a big difference in commanders and an old Apache saying “There’s many roads to the same–” I guess that’s Apache, I don’t know I heard that some place but you can– So he got– Captain Palmer got just as much work and stuff out of us but not the animosity. (1:20:00) I mean if we could’ve saluted Pierpoint in the field we threatened to do it many times because you don’t wear rank, nobody wore rank, and Captain Pierpoint didn’t even like to have a radio man follow him around because that means you’re a person of interest, you know, of command if you have a radio man. So a lot of times he’d leave the radio man back at the CP and he’d just walk around like– But he strutted, he was tall and skinny and you just wanted to throw him a salute, you know, when you’re out in the boonies, you know. Sergeant Morgan would say “Don’t you even think about it.” You know. Interviewer: “Alright, so he fits at least some part of the West Point stereotype at that point.” Yep, yep. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Fortunately they didn’t all.” No because Colonel Gillem, that we both know, he’s a West Point-er and he’s a great guy, I mean he is super. Interviewer: “He’s somebody who learned from the people around him and understood when he came in he didn’t know anything.” Yeah, yeah he was one “Okay I’m the platoon leader but I don’t squat so you continue running the ‘ploon. Interviewer: “Platoon, yep.” And so Captain Palmer was like that, he would let the first sergeant run or the XO if the XO was here before he was, you know. So he would just wander around and Captain Palmer would take his– Well you saw him, he had his t-shirt on and the first sergeant had his blouse on or his jungle shirt on, but you’d never know Captain Palmer was a captain. I mean he was– You know didn’t wear a cover, didn’t wear a hat most of the time. Interviewer: “Okay, say a little bit more about just living conditions in the field, on a day to day basis you’re with the battery, you know not a big thing happening. What’s going on, what are you doing?” (1:21:56) We had– They gave us tents for a while, these little umbrella type tents, you needed sandbags around them. Here again, military not thinking, howitzers have concussion, concussion blows things apart. So the tents didn’t last very long either the mortars would blow them apart, rockets, or a concussion of our guns was always ripping them wouldn’t blow them down but just ripping them, and so they took those away from us and then we ended up living in bomb craters or shell craters. You’d kind of flatten them out and then– We carried PSP or PT–PSP it’s what they build runways out of. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Yeah, steel matting, yeah.” And so we carried that on trucks and what we would do is drive steel fence posts in the ground and laid that stuff on the roof and then put a tarp over it, and then two layers of sandbags and then– We had a cot, and then you put your cot in there, and then that’s where you slept. So now you gotta contend with snakes and scorpions and all that stuff cause it’s a shady spot and you didn’t like taking your boots off cause scorpions would go in your boots and sometimes people would forget to empty them out, but that’s how we lived whenever we were out in the field. One fella didn’t want to do that, he just put two sandbags around him and he got stung by a scorpion on his testicle and so his swelled– I kid you not they were black and this big, and they put him in a chopper and flew him off to Japan, never saw him again don’t know if he lived or died, but yeah if you’re not looking out for Viet Cong you’re looking out for bamboo vipers or we call them a two step, scorpions, snakes, cobras– King cobras, cobras you’d try to capture and then the medic would milk them and then use that for snake venom the HID sent it to the hospital on a helicopter and they’d make snake venom out of it– Or, you know. Interviewer: “Anti-venom, yeah the serum. Let’s see, now were there rats out in the field?” (1:24:24) Not with us, we weren’t in one place long enough for the rats to find out we were there. Here again we talked to folks that are in a base camp where there’s rats in the guard stations and conex buildings and all that kind of– No, we never encountered rats, that was– Interviewer: “Alright, and what were you eating?” If we were long enough in a place they would bring a mess hall out, so we did eat pretty good. A lot of times they would fly us out meals in those thermal– Interviewer: “Yeah marmite cans.” �Jamieson, Jimmy Marmite cans and so– Or if it’s monsoon season they had chinooks or huey’s would fly out food for us and if we’re only gonna be in a place a day, day and a half, then we would eat the K rations and stuff like that so– Or if you’re on convoy you ate K rations. Interviewer: “Alright, and then where did you get your fresh water from?” They would fly it out, you’d get a lister bag or a water trailer, they’d bring it out in a water trailer, a 200 gallon trailer, you know, it’s a trailer and it looked like a sprinkler sometimes. So you’re finding sticks to poke in the holes so the water doesn’t, you know, sniper shooting up at them as you’re bringing it in– Awe geez, sorry about that guys– [shuffling] (1:25:55) So, anyways. Interviewer: “Okay so we were talking about the– People would shoot up the water containers and so forth, and you hear stories about how bad the water tasted, would you put things in it to make it taste better?” (1:27:05) Yeah, iodine tablets, this is another thing where if you’re talking to a psychiatrist and you’re trying to get your PTSD and all this other kind of stuff is that sometimes you’d come to a stream and you’d think it’s fresh water so you’d put your canteen in there and put in iodine tablets and drink it, well unbeknownst to the medics and the doctors or a lot of people that Agent Orange had been sprayed, and it’s in the water so you’re drinking Agent Orange now okay. It’s just not only in the trees but it’s also in the water, or if you come to a pond and clear the– And get some fresh water. I had prostate cancer at the age of 56, which is real young for prostate cancer, and they took 12 biopsies they were positive and the government admitted that it was from Agent Orange and we were in Agent Orange, I mean they sprayed that whole area where we were in several times so– But they never thought about the water apparently, you can drink that stuff let alone just being on the foliage so– Interviewer: “But then when you got the stuff out of the water tanks or the bags and things like that, did that have a bad taste to it?” �Jamieson, Jimmy Yeah it tasted– Sometimes they put it in a lister bag and brought it out and it tasted like canvas, you know like drinking out of a garden hose, don’t know where they got their potable water from, who knows what chemicals they put in it. Some of the problems we had too is that the indigenous people would sell ice, we could buy ice okay, so we had no ice so we would get cokes or pops and you’d lay it on that ice and spin it. Well what you’d do is you'd take your canteen cup and knock off a chunk of ice and put it in your canteen cup and pour coke over it so you drink it. Well, here again unbeknownst to us they had put glass in that ice, so now you’re drinking it and you’re chewing on that ice, crunch, crunch, crunch “Oh God.” you know you don’t understand it, well now you’re eating glass again, so it got to the point where you could buy ice but don’t– Just put your can on in and spin it to get it cool– You never get it cold but you get it cool, and drink your pop. So that’s– I mean they was always trying to poison you somehow, you know, and there’s razor blades and booby traps and– Interviewer: “Okay, now did you spend any time out of the field?” (1:29:48) Geez, I say in the field for 11 and half months because I went to Hawaii for R&R for a week, and then you get to– If we’re in sympathetic towards us town where you could get a half a day pass, where you’d jump on a chopper and they take you in, drop you off and then at dusk you had to get back on the chopper because at night that town belonged to the Viet Cong. So you could do that once and a while and that’s the only time that I ever– If you went to a base camp like on an ammo run, they would put ammo guys on your gun and then you would go in on an ammo truck and you had a list for the guys, you wanted stamps, writing paper, if you could get batteries for your radio, or shaving, whatever you had a big list and so here again I got in trouble there for steel pot, black vest, personal sidearm, my pants were rolled up, black vest on. I mean just– In a base camp you don’t carry weapons and, you know, that kind of stuff. So I was smoking a cigar, rifle slung on my right shoulder, and me and another fella, Larry Martin walking into the PX, and a warrant officer and a lieutenant came walking by us and they probably went eight, ten feet and they stopped and yelled at us “Hey trooper, don’t you know how to salute!” So we turned around and I saluted with my left hand with a cigar in my mouth, that’s a no-no, you know, and of course there’s no rank, no names, no nothing on your– and “What are you doing with those arms?” And blah blah I mean they just gave us a rough day and we weren’t even standing at �Jamieson, Jimmy attention and so they wanted to know what unit we were with, and he says “Oh, you those guys up north?” “Yes sir.” “Ah, get out of here.” Apparently our reputation preceded us, they know– So that was, I thought “Oh boy, here we go a bunch of snobs, rear echelon people you know. They might have been pilots for all I know. Interviewer: “Pilots probably wouldn’t have done that.” No, one was a warrant officer and one was a lieutenant so– But because I got a cigar in my mouth– So, but you know I was probably older than they were, I turned 21 in Vietnam so they called me Pappy. Interviewer: “Right, now one of the other stereotypes about Vietnam is issues with race and so forth, I mean what was the ethnic mix of your battery? Did you have black guys there or Spanish?” (1:32:46) Yeah, Guadalupe Tobias was– He was in our gun battery and him and I got along poking fun at each other all the time. Washington, George, Alexander, he had about five president’s names after his last name was Washington and we made fun of him. I got a picture of him where if he wasn’t smiling you wouldn’t see him, it was a black and white picture and– George Washington. We had a good time, we had a lot of– We had quite a few blacks, Hispanics in our outfit and we had a couple blacks in our gun battery and we had a ball, and here again I– Here again it’s trust, you know, and we associate with them they didn’t do their black thing, white thing I mean it was– You know like on full metal– Not so much on full metal jacket. Interviewer: “But it is you know again it’s the stereotype or the assumption, and there were times and places where there were racial issues but usually in base camps or rear areas and more often later in the war than when you were there.” Yeah, maybe in the 70’s when they were dialing down but, no we didn’t see any of that even with the Cav guys. No one even really hardly smoked cause you didn’t have cigarettes a lot, when you did get a care package I didn’t smoke I like to chew on a cigar– Well I had a pipe but �Jamieson, Jimmy that got blown up, my uncle Bill sent me a pipe and that got blown up and my writing material– Everything, my radio, everything got blown up. Yeah that was the other thing if you had a record player or a transistor radio, if it lasted a month cause of the concussions of the gun would blow the speakers all apart, you know. So it was just pretty quiet out there. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you get hurt yourself?” I broke my shoulder, I fell in a ditch and broke my right shoulder unbeknownst to me, I didn’t know it was broke they just tied it to my– And put me on light duty until I can move it but I found out it was broke when they did– I had elbow surgery on it a few years back. I had bone on bone on this side and it was because this didn’t heal but they showed me right on the x-ray where I broke it and they had to grind all the scar tissue off. He said “Oh you must have broke this years ago.” And I said “Well it had to been in Vietnam.” So– But that’s minor stuff, you know. Interviewer: “Yeah, and then did your ears get affected?” (1:35:35) I got caught under the muzzle of the 155, the self propelled, in a fire mission and it blew my eardrums out and here again it knocked– It ripped the shirts– Myself and another guy, actually it was Larry Martin, we were getting ammo and running it– Because we were shooting over the back of the gun, so turn tubes around and shooting over the back of the gun, and so the ammo was there. So we’d run around, grab it and then throw it in the door and then run around to the front of the gun and “Ammo! Ammo!” So we’d run around and we got caught, boom! Interviewer: “So somebody pulled the lanyard at the wrong time.” Well it was the right time for them and wrong time for us. We got caught and the tube was almost perfectly flat, so instead of being up like this the tube was like this, of course we’re maybe four feet from the end of the gun and that muzzle blast goes this way but it also goes like that, and it just ripped– It’s like hitting yourself in the back as hard as you can and it just ripped our shirt and it just basically knocked us out and they drug us out of there and medic came over �Jamieson, Jimmy and wiped the blood off. So, you know it’s like you I could sit there and watch and I could see your mouth move but I couldn’t hear anything until it grew back so it’s… Interviewer: “Okay, now as you got towards the end of your tours you got short, did your– Either your duties change or your own attitude change at all?” You just get more conscious, you try to do things that won’t get you hurt. In our unit they did not send you out of the field, some units if you had 30 days left they sent you back, our unit you went full bore until– Like I told you I was supposed to leave December 9th, December the 8th we got hit and it didn’t matter, you know, you ain’t going anywhere until it’s your time. So nothing changed that was just day after day after day, but consciously yourself you start thinking “Okay now.” You’re just more and more– Instead of doing it automatically you have more of a tendency to stop and think about it. “Okay now, what happens if–” You know, “Okay it’s getting dark– Okay well, oh boy where’s the most likely spot–” Usually you just wait for it to happen, so now you think “Well, okay last night we got hit from over there and they won’t do that again.” You know, you’re just– You’re overly conscious and sometimes that’s not good either because then you’re not thinking about– Interviewer: “Or you’re thinking too much.” (1:38:30) Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay now how much contact did you have with people back home while you were in Vietnam?” Just letters, I went to Hawaii for R&R and I called my– I had gotten, like a lot of guys, I got a dear John while I was there and so I went with this other girl in highschool I ended up– We ended up getting married– My high school sweetheart, she just called me, and so I called her from Hawaii instead of my ex-girlfriend and we chit chatted but then we started writing letters and– But other than that I had no contact, I couldn’t call home like the folks can now. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Yeah, well did your parents send you things?” Yes, mom course the baked goods but Kool-aid and Jiffy Pop popcorn were the big things. I would get Jiffy Pop popcorn and you take some C-4 and throw it in a cup, canteen cup or if you could get a can, and pop the Jiffy Pop. Okay well the XO came down and he says, you know “What are you doing?” And I said “Popping popcorn.” “Well don’t you know we’re on light restriction, noise restriction, you know they can smell that popcorn.” I says “Yeah.” He says “Well, you know you’re giving our position away.” and I said “LT” I says “Six howitzers, four tanks, four or five armored personnel carriers, all this vehicles here. You don’t think they know we’re here?” I mean, you know, all these– This popcorn is gonna make squat difference. “Ah, give me some of that.” So he takes a handful and walks away, but mom was sending me six Jiffy Pop popcorns in a box, so I’d give one to the CO and so I could get away with being really mouthy because you know– And Kool-aid the guys liked Kool-aid we would put it in our water. Interviewer: “Yeah that kind of thing. Alright, are there other particular memories or impressions from the Vietnam tour that you haven’t brought into the story here yet that you want to add?” (1:41:05) Other than the fact that the camaraderie was great, certain officers were like enlisted folks, I had a lot of good times there, a lot of fun, sometime you’re scared crap outta ya but– To say I was glad I did it, yeah I would do it again if you know. I feel sorry for the folks that are in Afghanistan, who volunteered to go there and don’t have the respect of the people that are there, like we didn’t have respect in Vietnam, but rules of engagement are different there, we had rules of engagement that we didn’t necessarily abide by all the time but we wouldn’t get in trouble like they would now. It’s more of a political scuffle and I call it a scuffle because it’s not a war, we didn’t declare war since World War II. I talked to the Vietnam folks and some of the state representatives that I have talked through LZ Michigan and stuff, that I have talked with ask them why we do not declare war and I asked this because does it change the benefits, if you declare war on somebody would it change the benefits that the service men get even though they call it a conflict, and it’s a war basically but it’s not a war war. So what’s the change in benefits �Jamieson, Jimmy maybe and is that political and stuff like that, so it’s– And then of course they way you’re treated when you get back, they put me in the riots in ‘68 when I got back– Interviewer: “Yeah, well we’ll get to that, I’ve been trying to sort of close out– There’s a part where you’re actually in Vietnam and you mentioned to get out of the field you basically had to go out in a convoy rather than a helicopter. Now once you’re out of the field how do they get you back home?” I was in a base camp at Dĩ An and then– Now it’s spit and polish time, so you’ve gotta be shaved, hair cut, clean pressed clothes, and you have to make the rounds– If you’re gonna ETS out you’ve gotta go to the chaplain, and I’ve never been to the chaplain but you’ve got to go there, and you have a card, he’s gotta sign it, you gotta go to the PX in case you owe them some money, they gotta sign it. You go to the NCO club and they have to sign off, you gotta go to the doctor and they give you a physical and they signed it, and there is where I run into another problem is that– Of course my eardrums were blown out, that’s not on my record, they flew me in from the field into Lai Khê, pulled a tooth, never put it on my record. So that’s not on my record, so now when I get home I got to go to the dentist, I gotta get a bridge made, well “It’s not on your record.” Well I’m sorry but they put me on a helicopter and Norm Chapin who was a family friend of ours was the adjutant at Lai Khê and so I went in and talked with him cause he’s a friend of my dads and blah blah blah blah blah, but they pulled my tooth and I got back to the helicopter and the blades were still going around it so that’s how long it took. (1:44:53) Give me a shot, pulled the tooth and I really didn’t get numb yet until I got to the field so I mean, you know record keeping was terrible. Interviewer: “Alright, but anyway so you’re making the– You’re at Dĩ An the division’s main base and you’re processed? Okay, and then what happens after that?” You have to turn in your equipment, this is another farce, they have a checklist just about canteen, helmet, helmet liner, weapons, poncho liner, and sleeping bag, and cot, and all this stuff– I– Cot, hell that’s out in the field yeah, my sleeping bag that’s out in the field yeah, “Well where is it?” Well it’s out in the field! Call the battery commander, have him ship it, call the first �Jamieson, Jimmy sergeant you know. “Well you, you gotta turn this stuff in.” Bayonet, bayonet sheet, I mean are you kidding me, you know then I had an M-16 supposedly “Well, where’s your rifle?” “Combat loss.” “What do you mean combat loss?” “Well it got blown up.” Or “It got thrown in the swamp.” “Well what’d you use?” “Well I had a 12 gauge shotgun.” “Where’s that?” “Well it’s in the field I left it with the gun section, you know it stays with the gun section.” The battery commander didn’t do any paperwork, you know it’s combat loss it’s wrote off as a combat loss, well it doesn’t follow you, you know so. Interviewer: “Well did they eventually let you go?” Oh yeah, they “Well alright.” So they just sing it, you know it’s not like I’m the first one that said that I mean– But they’ve got it– You know it’s some sergeant and he’s gotta give you a wrap, the BS, you know make it look like he’s doing his job and, you know everybody’s got their job but don’t take it out on us if you’ve never been to the field. I mean just like cleaning kits, one in five people get a cleaning kit with an M-16, well rear echelon people all have cleaning kits but the people in the field that need them don’t. That’s how so many guys get killed trying to fix the jams in their rifles cause they don’t have a cleaning kit. So– But anyways they basically got it out, or got me out, I flew out on another C-141 troop transport, five of them flew in they unloaded the whole company of 101 Airborne, the commander that was a colonel a full bird, a light colonel, and a major, and I don’t know what– Those were the officers that flew the plane, they were turning around and going back. (1:47:35) So they put 14 of us on this C-141 and we’re flying home okay. Big airplane, completely empty, and we sat on web seats that folded down okay, that’s where you slept too. So we’re going to San Bernardino is where we’re flying into. So we’re flying in– Well we stopped at Okinawa to refuel, landed, refueled, go to take off, landing gear doesn’t lock up, lights don’t come on. So we do a fly by, “Yeah your gears up.” So they put them down, bring them back up, doesn’t look like they’re– “Well you better land, we'll check it out.” Okay, so they just took 8000 pounds of fuel or whatever, 8000 gallons, we’re spraying it over the ocean, foaming the runway in case the landing gear doesn’t lock. Oh my god, a year and three days in Vietnam and I’m gonna die in Okinawa, so we’re sitting in our seats and we’re strapped in and– You know, and we land, foam all over everything, you know. “Well it’s gonna be a while for us to check it out.” So they put us up in a hotel in Okinawa, my �Jamieson, Jimmy first bath in a year and of course they’re little baths but oh my God that felt so good, hot water and you know and the red clay just comes out of you– It looks like you’re bleeding the water has a tinge of red to it. Get back on the plane, it was a couple on sensor, one on the landing gear and then the light, a couple faulty switches and stuff. So we take off, we land at San Bernardino, what the hell am I doing in San Bernardino and I gotta be way up here in California. So Red Cross gets me a flight, free, up to Travis Air Force Base so now I’m held up there 12 hours. Why? Well this is December, it’s seven below in Michigan, all I have on are my summer khakis, no winter clothes at all. So they take all that crap and they give me all brand new dress greens, I had no dress greens I had, you know, whole new shoes cause mine were moldy and everything. So they tailor fit your dress greens and then I had to go to debriefing on what I can and can’t talk about, how to talk at the table, you know it’s not “Pass the effin’ butter” So I’m going through a debriefing, acclimating back into social life and getting all new clothes and everything and so– And now I’ve caught a cold, I’ve got this cold, okay so now I get on my– And your leave doesn’t start until you get home. So I’m already 12 hours or more late, I was extended three days, that put me three days behind, now I’m late leaving Travis. (1:51:00) So okay now I’m on this flight and I’m flying home, Grand Rapids is snowed in, so they send us up to Muskegon. Well they had called my folks to tell them that our flight was being delayed, okay I’m gonna take a bus or a taxi– Bus from Muskegon. So okay, well we get up to Muskegon, and the storm quit in Grand Rapids so they turn around fly us back to Grand Rapids. So now we land in Grand Rapids and I got a call home “Hey Pops, I’m home.” “Well where’s that?” “Well I’m at the airport.” So you know back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, so I was three or four days late getting home and what a fiasco that was. I mean just one problem after another. Interviewer: “Okay, and now you’re not done with your enlistment yet either.” Oh no. Interviewer: “Okay so you get leave home, how long were you sick you had your cold?” I had a cold I could not– My eyes were watering so bad but I bought some contacts– �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Cold medicine yeah.” I took a couple– Now they’re 12 hour right, so I pop a couple of them and my eyes finally dried up. Well I happened to be sitting next to a fella that owned the Ford tractor place in Grandville, Michigan, they sold Ford tractors and he happened to know my dad because my dad’s from Grandville the Jamieson homestead is there and everything. I had to be sitting right next to him and we got to talking and I couldn’t buy a drink. I mean they were buying me drinks I got– Couse I’m in uniform, and I– I wouldn’t say I was drunk but with the cold I wasn’t feeling any pain when I got home and so that was– That made it a nice flight. You know I think– You know everybody says that, you know, you’re treated like crap while on the airplane and in the airport, I was treated pretty good, people were buying– Of course there’s a lot of service men in there but people were buying me a drink and stuff, thought “Hell this ain’t gonna be bad.” Until I got home, even in the Grand Rapids area here it was not good but– So I’m home on leave for 30 days and I already know where I’m going, I’m going to Fort Meade, Maryland 6th Armored Cav, so that’s after my leave. We had a good time at home I got re-hooked up again with my girlfriend and bought a snowmobile, and I had them paint “Cong Chaser” on it, I don’t know if you wanna get into this or not– Interviewer: “Oh yeah.” (1:53:43) So I don’t know if you know of Michigan Out of Doors with Mort Neff, Bruce Grant on the radio, well those are friends of my dad’s they’re all from Grandville, and so Roger Perrin owned a snowmobile dealership in Grandville, Perrin’s Marina, my dad knew him. So I worked for him the 30 days I was home just putting snowmobiles together, you know a couple hours here a couple hours– It wasn’t never a job he would pay me spending money. So on Sundays Bruce Grant would come to Roger Perrin’s and bring a bottle and my dad would have coffee, and well I bought a snowmobile and had them paint “Cong Chaser” on it, then I had it hopped up a little bit. So Roger would use my snowmobile as a demo and people thinking the snowmobile they buy like this is gonna be as fast as mine was, well it wasn’t of course. So anyway Mort Neff had a safari between Croton and Hardy Dam in the winter time and he landed in his ski plane and the camera crew got out and they’re taking pictures and well they happen to look at my snowmobile �Jamieson, Jimmy and it says “Cong Chaser” on it, well that was the name of our howitzer. He didn’t know what that meant so I explained to him so I ended up on Michigan Out of Doors– Morton Neff, they were doing a show of the safari. They had hot dogs and snowmobiling and then one of the segments was on my snowmobile. So that– So I got to go on– But yeah, so home was fun. Interviewer: “Okay and now off to Fort Meade.” Off to Fort Meade, I get there at night and that’s fine, they stick me in the 6th Armored Cav, nobody there I got there on a Friday night. Cool, okay so no duties, no nothing. I’m assigned to the gun battery, the howitzer battery, so I got the whole weekend to screw off. Well my cousin Chuck Devries lived in Chevy Chase, so I called him up. So I took a cab over to his house, so I actually spent the weekend with my cousin at Chevy Chase and he took me all around and everything, and then I reported back– I had to sign out, and I reported back in again. Well then on Monday morning then you get assigned where you’re gonna be and what gun battery you’re on– Or gun crew and all that kind of stuff and so I was there for a while. (1:56:18) Well then the 1st Army is there also, and they wanted recruits for the rifle team, so hell I’ll sign up– I’ll try out for it, so there’s like 200 of us trying out for the rifle team, and you have to shoot expert every time you shoot and they needed eight slots filled. So I kept shooting expert, expert, until they wittled us down to eight. So by the end of the day I was on the 1st Army national rifle pistol team, if my battery commander would release me, and he did. So I’d get up in the morning and go to chow and then I’d make the 0-600 formation, you know all present and accounted for, make up my bunk, and my reporting station was the 1st Army national rifle pistol team. So I’d get a ride and I’d spend all day on the rifle team shooting, shooting, shooting, and if you weren’t in a competition then you were an instructor. So the guys on AIT, when they’d have to march to the rifle range and learn how to shoot kadri, that was us. You’d wear the steel– Or the helmet liner that says “Kadri” on it and so– Or “Instructor” and that’s what I did when the rifle team people were the kadri, and so that’s what I did for the time that I was there. I traveled up and down the east coast, shooting rifle competitions. I had two match grade M-14s, instructing on the M-60, M-16, M-14, the thump-gun, demonstration on the 50 we didn’t teach the 50 just the demonstration. So that was fun until the riots started, Martin Luther King had been assassinated in April but it started out as a Vietnam protest and so the 101st Airborne I believe had the �Jamieson, Jimmy Capitol building, 82nd Airborne had the White House, or vice versa I can’t keep them straight, 6th Armored Cav had the surrounding area. Our unit had from Louisiana, and this is on Concord, the main street, Louisiana to Pennsylvania, that’s where I had to patrol, and different guys had different streets and we were all spread out. So for three days we would patrol that in rioting, people were throwing jars of urine at you, bags of feces, you know dog manure, human crap and stuff like that. You would form a V and then you had fixed bayonets and you just marched right into the crows and dispersed them if they would, but they had us– The 6th Armored Cav was in dress greens, now we weren’t Airborne but we were in dress greens with bloused pants, in other words you wore your combat boots with– Like the Airborne would. Black leather gloves, pistol belt, helmet liner, no steel pot helmet liner, and the Cav wore an ascot, like the Cav wore– The regular the 1st and the 4th wore a yellow ascot, ours was red, and so instead of wearing a shirt and a tie you wore your shirt- Khaki shirt under your greens but you wore a red ascot. It’s like a turtleneck thing, and then you wore your pistol belt and two ammo pouches with loaded magazines, we had 80 rounds, and then you wore your bayonet and two canteens of water and that’s what we wore, and so you were spit and polished. (2:00:30) They wanted the people to see that you weren’t a bunch of reserves– There was no national guard, no reserves, so you would– You wore all your medals, and you were dressed to the hilt, I mean. When we pulled up into the group we were on the back of a deuce and a half with a canvas off, and they’d have us stand up and then left and right detail, you know left turn, right turn whatever. So they’d have us take out our bayonets and that was, you know “On my command fix bayonets.” So you’d fix bayonet, you’d take your bayonet out and then you would mount it and they’d say “Fix bayonets!” You’d have like 20 some guys on the truck go chhh-kkk and there’s people all around you and they’re looking up at you watching, thinking “Okay now what are these guys gonna do?” “On my command load magazine.” So you’d undo your pouch, take out a loaded magazine and we’d wrap it on our heads to make sure the rounds were all in the back and they’d say “Load magazine!” And then you’d go chh-kk everybody would go chh-kk at the same time “On my command load one round.” So you’d put your hand up and they’d say “Load one round!” Chhkk! People could see that round going into the magazine. So then they’d have us exit the vehicle or the truck, demount they called it cause you’re in a cab, you mount your truck you don’t climb it. So and then we’d form the V and then there’d be guys in here with the thump-guns, with tear gas, and so whether they had us use tear gas or not you had your M-17 protective gas mask, but �Jamieson, Jimmy we would just march into the ground and if they wouldn’t move you’d put the bayonet right here and stand them up right on their tip toes and then if they came down, call an ambulance you know haul people away but, they would disperse and get out of our way but you know we didn’t put up with any bullshit, and that was the first three days. When the looting started- Now the police are with us okay, or actually we’re with them because we had rules that we had to abide by. So when the looting started, then now the police are with us cause Congress declares martial law, or somebody did usually it’s Congress cause they’re running- DC is run by Congress. So now they’re– We don’t need search warrants, so when you see a car loaded with stereos and TVs, or a quarter of a cow sticking out frozen, you’d just point the rifle at them at an intersection, they’d stop, jerk them out, put handcuffs on them. They’d put them in a paddy wagon that had 10 or 12 people, hands over the bar, they’d drive away, empty them out then come back. (2:03:30) So we did that for eight days, and throwing tear gas, we had CS1 riot teargas grenades. We’d go through buildings cause they’re block-long apartment buildings and you would just start at one end, pull the pin and throw it– Cause they’re fiberglass, they would break, and then people were putting towels under the cracks of the doors, and we got credited for saving a baby. The tear gas came through it, and CS1 riot it’s a tear gas but it also cause nausea and vomiting and dry heaves, and now your stomach ruptures now you’re vomiting up blood, I mean it could kill you. So they handed this baby out and one of our sergeants laid the baby on the hood of the car and started doing CPR and supposedly saves this baby life and of course he gets accolades mades for it, but we didn’t put up with that crap I mean– We were in Arlington Cemetery in tents for 11 days and the rioting and yeah it was not fun, I mean here you go through a year of Vietnam and this is how you’re treated? What a rude awakening that is and you get– This is part of my PTSD I can’t stand guys with ponytails, it just drives me absolutely nuts, and it’s taken me a long time to get over that and Asians– It’s just the flower power people, the hippies, it just– Interviewer: “You associate that with that experience.” With the riots, yup. It’s just– Yeah I don’t get nightmares over that it just pisses me off, it upsets me. �Jamieson, Jimmy Interviewer: “Alright, now before that happened were you giving any thought to staying in the Army?” Yeah, in the meantime I had taken an OCS test, three hours and something long, and I passed it. So you’ve got like 30 days or whatever to make up your mind if you wanna enlist, so my wife now her and I were talking, we weren’t engaged or anything but yeah talking marriage and stuff like that and she says “Well if we’re ever thinking about marriage–” She says “You and Vietnam was too hard, you barely made it through the first year–” And I told her I was guaranteed one more year because once you become an officer you gotta serve three more years, I was guaranteed one more year in Vietnam, maybe two and she says “You barely made it through the first one.” She says “So if you’re thinking about getting the service then there’s no chance of us getting married.” and “Aww geez, what do I, what do I, what do I?” And the thought of still being a school teacher that came into mind, so I elected not to go back into the service, and as it is the girlfriend then we’ve been married 48 years now and so she’s put up with a lot of stuff from me, the counseling and what not. So as it is I ended up with a good job at the– I ended up being an engineer anyways. Interviewer: “Yeah so what kind of job did you get then when you get out?” (2:07:17) I bounced around, I was a mechanic, I was– Worked in the septic tank business with my cousin, the Plummer’s Septic Tank Service. Millionaire now, the boys are, but anyway I bounced around being a truck mechanic and a car mechanic and finally got a job with the phone company in 1974 and I worked as a top craft splicer and then a crew leader, it’s called a technical leader, I did that for five years and then they promoted me to an engineer. I was still taking classes, I never did get a degree but they would hire engineers out of college and put them with me for two or three weeks to teach them the ropes and so finally Dorothy Debane the fourth level over in engineering she said “We just might as well make you an engineer.” So even without a degree– And then they needed an engineer in Marquette in the Upper Peninsula, so– This is back in ‘93, and my wife said “Yeah, sure we’ll go to Marquette.” So I was up there for eight years and then I came back down here, and I was an engineer and then a training development manager, I hired 25 splicers they were starting up a new construction department and I hired two first level managers �Jamieson, Jimmy and got them trained and equipped. Went back to being an engineer and then I ended up being an air pressure manager and I says “I’ll do it for two years, then I’m gonna retire.” So I retired at age 57, after I got over my prostate cancer I said “Life’s too short.” I put my 30 years in and so I retired at 57. Interviewer: “Okay, but you’re still a busy man. What are you doing now?” I’m volunteering for LZ Michigan, that’s got me quite busy, I do a lot with schools; my grandson is going into 9th grade but I was his daycare person when he was a year and a half old, he was high end autistic I had to take him to Mary Free Bed five days a week for two hours for oral, motor skills, and speech therapy. So him and I are, I mean we’re really close and that was my wife calling to say that Travis won’t be over till 4:30, him and I are gonna make a platform for a shed, but he’s a big boy, big kid, 15, he’s in what they call Peaks Class so he’s been taking– In the 8th grade he took 9th grade classes and now he’s in 9th grade he’s taking 10th grade classes. He was in the Grand Rapids Youth Symphony, he’s in orchestra, and symphony, and jazz band at Kentwood. He’s hoping to get a scholarship, he plays the stand up bass, electric bass, and guitar. So I do a lot of volunteer work at school, I go on field trips, I help the orchestra, I also teach gun safety, hunter safety for the DNR, I’ve done that for 38 years. So I do instructional shooting, rifle shooting, I’ve worked with some SWAT folks on their rifle shooting and people they just want to learn to shoot their rifles better so I am with a gun club here in town. I have a fifth wheeler at Selkirk Lake so I fish, I hunt all the time, I go out west, I shoot prairie dogs, the wife and I both ride motorcycles, she rides a three wheeler and I ride a motorcycle so I’m not home much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JamiesonJ2143V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jamieson, Jimmy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07 Title A name given to the resource Jamieson, Jimmy (Interview transcript and video), 2025 Description An account of the resource Jimmy Jamieson was born in Newport News, Virginia in 1946. He graduated high school in 1965 and began college classes. He was drafted in the Army in February of 1966 but was allowed to finish the semester before being sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky in July. Shortly after, he was moved to Fort Campbell, Kentucky for basic training, where he was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. After basic, he was sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for artillery training and ranger training. He then had 30 days of leave before flying out of Travis Air Force Base to Vietnam. The plane stopped in Guam for a couple hours to refuel, and then landed in Pleiku, Vietnam. Originally assigned to field artillery for the 75th Ranger Battalion, he was instead flown to Camp Alpha near Saigon and assigned to the 8th Battalion, 6th Artillery in Vietnam, 1st Infantry Division. Nearly every night he had fire missions known as harassment and interdiction, where they fired at suspected Viet Cong or North Vietnamese Army at random times. After he joined the unit, they moved to Quan Loi Base Camp. There, his main job was to keep the supply line on track, but he also provided the Special Forces with gun support. Being close to the Cambodian border, Jamieson’s unit would sometimes cross into Cambodia. While on deployment, Jamieson visited Hawaii for a week for R&R. In late 1967, he finished his deployment and was processed at Dĩ An, the division’s main base camp, before being flown back to the U.S., stopping in Okinawa to refuel. He arrived in San Bernardino and took another flight to Travis Air Force Base, then another flight to Grand Rapids. After 30 days of leave, he went to Fort Meade, Maryland. Originally assigned to gun battery for the 6th Armored Cavalry Regiment, Jamieson took a shooting test and landed a spot on the 1st Army National Rifle Pistol Team. During the Vietnam protests, his unit patrolled the area surrounding the White House and Capitol. At the end of his service, he decided not to enlist. Instead, he got married and worked several odd jobs before becoming an engineer. He also worked as a training development manager and an air pressure manager. After he retired, he took up volunteer work for LZ Michigan and his son’s high school as well as teaching gun safety for the DNR. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2aec4f5e32e7bcadc47001017a0dcfd5.m4v 3116963fbf4da33107730a6e606a9175 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/37a065b42dc6b63837e5e8e38ae6177b.pdf 90f4648df22427e0c74c8983d518b99b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Dwight Jamison Korean War 26 minutes 54 seconds (00:00:02) Early Life -Born in Big Rapids, Michigan on February 15, 1928 -Brother enlisted in the Army Air Force in 1943 -Served in India during World War II -Base with aircraft that brought supplies into China (00:01:15) Enlisting in the Army -Interested in joining the military since youth -Served in the Michigan National Guard -Father served in the National Guard in the 1920s -Wanted to enlist before he turned 18 years old, but father forbade it -Enlisted in the Army -Father's National Guard service prompted him to enlist in the Army -Lived across from the recruiting center in Big Rapids -Enlisted on his 18th birthday -Two weeks after enlisting he went to Detroit to take his physical exam -Went to Detroit with his friend who had also enlisted -Dwight passed the exam, but his friend failed it (00:03:16) Basic Training -Sent to Camp Polk, Louisiana for basic training -Watery and swampy location -Basic training lasted eight weeks -Time in the National Guard prepared him for basic training -Went on a bivouac -Remembers being woken up at night by the drill instructors -Raining and ordered to march 20 miles through swamp -Had to hold rifle over his head -Saw a five foot long water moccasin (00:05:04) Stationed in Japan -Deployed to Japan -Served in southern Japan at an Army hospital during the Korean War -Worked in supply -Brought wounded soldiers from the air strip to the hospital -Would rather have been fighting in Korea -Remembers bringing in one soldier that was severely wounded -New nurse put a wound tag on the soldier -He asked if it would hurt and she started crying -Had been hit by an artillery shell -Hit in the ribs, arm was hanging by a strand of muscle -Worked on a hospital train three times -Going between south Japan and Tokyo -Had a Turkish soldier in his train car -Couldn't speak English and played a harmonica �-Only song he know how to play was the Turkish national anthem -Cared for the wounded in his car -None of them were too severely wounded -Remembers a B-29 bomber en route to Guam after a bombing run over Korea -Severely damaged, lost its landing gear, and had wounded aboard -Had to land without its landing gear -Navigator, tail gunner, and one other crewman was wounded -Bomb exploded under the navigator and injured his feet -Stripped the wounded and collected their personal belongings for storage -Navigator had a beautiful pair of boots -Cleaned the boots for the airman and held onto them -Airman told Dwight he got the boots in Monaco (00:14:32) Japanese Civilians -In Japan he met an older Japanese man who worked as a mechanic -Helped repair Dwight's jeep -Had two daughters -Often spent evenings with him and ate dinner together (00:15:48) Christmas in Japan -Remembers one Christmas all of the cooks in his unit were gifted bottles of rum -Indulged with them to celebrate the holiday -Decided that he preferred sake over rum (00:16:39) Friendship & Exploration of Japan -Is still in touch with a friend he made in the Army -Friend's parents lived in Tokyo -Explored the parks and monuments in Tokyo -Saw the place where many Japanese had committed seppuku (ritual suicide) (00:18:10) Downtime in Japan -During one winter he went skiing in northern Japan -In the summer the Japanese grew crops in the mountains -Ran into cornstalks buried under the snow -Went head over heels and a ski hit him in the back of the head (00:19:57) Rank -Made the rank of corporal before the Korean War (prior to June 1950) -Tried to get promoted to staff sergeant, but there was no need for another sergeant at the time (00:20:22) Contact with Family -Kept in touch with his family while he was in Japan (00:20:35) Hospital Duty in Korea -Sent to an area near Pusan, Korea -Established a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (MASH) field hospital (00:21:23) Coming Home & Life after the War -He was back in the United States by the time the war ended in 1953 -Glad it ended -American people didn't pay much attention to the returning veterans though -At Camp Stoneman, California -Had flown back to the United States from Japan -Flight took 36 hours -Stopped at Wake Island and Honolulu, Hawaii -Arrived at Camp Stoneman early in the morning -Didn't recognize the towers on the houses �-Didn't know what TV antennas were -Hadn't been in the United States for four and a half years -Left the United States in 1946 and got back in 1951 -Visited the nearby town of Pittsburg, California to get a meal -Got heckled by a group of locals for being in the Army -Lost faith in the American people -Made him want to return to Japan -Took a train across the country back to Michigan -Trip took two and a half days -Left his experiences in the Army behind him -Had trouble finding a job -Went back to Big Rapids, Michigan Interview ends abruptly � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JamisonD1835V Title A name given to the resource Jamison, Dwight Carson (Interview outline and video), 2015 Description An account of the resource Dwight Jamison was born in Big Rapids, Michigan on February 15, 1928. He served in the Michigan National Guard as a teenager and enlisted in the Army in 1946. He received his basic training at Camp Polk, Louisiana and after that was deployed to Japan. He served at a hospital in Japan during the Korean War, helping with supplies and bringing wounded soldiers from a nearby airstrip to the hospital for treatment. He was also sent to an area near Pusan, Korea to help establish a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital. In 1951 he returned to the United States after four and a half years in Japan and served at Camp Stoneman, California. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jamison, Dwight Carson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hansen, Mia (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0a972603bdf9a82c6fca2f4addf3a6c3.mp4 db9d0719272022b08cbf1b8e8eff3cb6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d80d4d084bbfc788813ad79aaa5dd3e6.pdf 2c0bd0885f52f2cb6b35179a78381c8a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Name of Interviewee: Edwin Jamros Name of War: World War II Interview Length (01:58:00) Pre-Enlistment  Born on May 1st, 1918 in Detroit, MI (0:50)  Enlisted in the Coast Guard on October 1st, 1940 (2:20)  Selected the Coast Guard because he knew we would go to war, and the lines were too long in the Army and too long of an enlistment for the Navy and Marines (3:00)  Lived in Brighton, MI at the time (3:40)  Farmed with his parents (1:20:40) Training  Went to Ellis Island, NYC for Basic (4:00)  Learned how to march, handle firearms and military code of ethics over 2-3 months  Assigned garbage detail during this time, which took 30 minutes each meal (5:15)  Drill instructors were First Class Boatswain’s Mate (5:30)  Had a hard time keeping in step with everybody else (5:45) Enlistment  Electrician’s Mate, First Class (2:00)  Mainly served in the European Theater, but was in on some of Africa, as well (6:30)  Also made a trip to Australia (6:50)  Served in the Armory at Ellis Island after Basic Training (7:40)  Did guard duty at the Captain of the Port’s office (7:55)  Pulled 12-8am duty sometimes, had to crack a few heads together (10:00)  Married on May 23, 1941, and wife came to New York to visit him in the fall, but he was deployed the same day (12:00)  Wife went back home to Detroit (13:00)  Was assigned as an Apprentice Electrician on the USS Joseph A Dickman (13:40)  Africa o Initially sailed for Nova Scotia and took on 18,000 British soldiers headed to Cape Town, South Africa (15:40) o Treated royally in Cape Town, and was on shore patrol during the first night (16:45) o Went to Bombay, India after Cape Town (18:30) o Three fastest ships took the troops to Singapore, but surrendered two days later because the Japanese had already taken the land (19:00) o Stayed two weeks in Bombay (19:20) o Learned many things about British rule in India (21:00) o Stopped back in Cape Town to pick up a load of graphite (23:15) �   o On the way home, stopped in Brazil for fuel during Carnival (23:30) o Stayed in Brazil for 2-3 days before coming back to New York (24:40) o Arrived home in January, had liberty every third day (25:30) o Met General Patton while conducting maneuvers off South Carolina (28:00) Australia o Took troops from New York to Panama (29:15) o Ship in front of his hit a rogue mine and disabled it (29:45) o Dropped new troops off in Panama, picked up veteran troops and brought them to Brisbane, Australia (30:00) o Had 320-350 sailors on the ship, but then it moved up to 5,000 people when troops were on board (32:10) o Had a three day party after they crossed the Equator (32:45) o Used a dunk tank for men that had never crossed the Equator before (35:10) o Stayed at port in Brisbane for 1 week (35:40) o Dropped off sailors and barges in New Caledonia (36:00) o Headed back to the Isthmus, and liberty on Balboa for three days (39:00) o Went back for repairs to Norfolk, VA, and he was sent to the Brooklyn Navy Yards to go to Motion Picture School (39:45) o Lived with his wife in a flat in Brooklyn (40:30) o Went to school because he was a projectionist on board his ship (41:00) o After war broke out, projectionist pay was taken away (42:00) Return to Africa o Rejoined the Dickman after repairs were finished (43:00) o Heard before he got his orders that his ship was going to North Africa to invade (45:15) o Was part of a massive convoy (45:30) o Invaded at Fedala in North Africa (46:00) o Initially on the outer ring of ships, but eventually moved to the inside ring so they could unload faster (47:15) o During unloading, ships in the convoy were torpedoed at exactly 6 pm (48:00) o After Fedala, they finished unloading at Casablanca (49:45) o Had to do it in the dark because of snipers (51:15) o Went to Mers el-Kebir for more training after that, and then home to Newport News for repairs (51:45) o Ships crew had to chip barnacles off the side and repaint it (53:30) Sicily o Went to Bermuda for supplies, but were fired upon by torpedoes before they got there (53:45) o Went home for supplies, but then went to Sicily after that (55:30) o Carried Darby’s Rangers on board his ship (55:45) o Participated in the landing in Sicily (58:00) Tape 2   Always landed troops at night (1:01:00) USS Dickman was bombed, had 23 shrapnel holes when the landing was over (1:03:15) �    Came back stateside after the landing in Sicily, had 10 days off and came home to Detroit (1:04:45) Had to check running lights every time they went stateside, only used in port (1:09:25) Took more troops back to Italy, brought supplies to Naples and landed troops at Salerno (1:06:45) Post-USS Dickman o Left the Mediterranean Sea, took troops to Scotland, preparing for D-Day (1:12:00) o Left the USS Dickman in 1944 and was transferred to the Tamarack out of Manitowoc, WI (1:15:00) o Stayed on the Tamarack for 5 months, entirely on the Great Lakes, as a submarine rescue ship (1:15:30) o Transferred to shore duty in Milwaukee, WI for 5 months (1:17:00) o Was transferred to Fort McHenry in Baltimore, MD to do guard duty just before discharge (1:24:00) o Discharged in Cleveland, OH on May 22, 1945 (1:25:00) o Kept in touch with family before the war by mail and phone calls (1:26:10) o Used V-Mail during the war. Mail was censored, but it was free postage and could only use one side of the sheet (1:27:00) o Most of the time, food was very good (1:29:00) o When there were troops aboard, they played a lot of poker, blackjack or other card games (1:38:30) Post-Enlistment  Adopted a child in December of 1949 (1:40:45)  Had two more boys (1:42:45)  After the Coast Guard, he bought 40 acres in Brighton, MI (1:47:00)  Sold the farm, moved in to Fowlerville, MI (1:47:45)  Moved to Ionia, then to Lansing to become an electrician inspector for the State of Michigan (1:48:25)  Retired in 1980, moved to Texas and Arkansas (1:49:15)  Moved to Potterville in 1992 (1:49:50)  Attended several reunions for the USS Dickman (1:50:30)  Never joined any veteran’s organization because he is a Mason (1:52:35)  Ribbons, medal and photographs shown (1:53:35) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JamrosE Title A name given to the resource Jamros, Edwin Francis (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jamros, Edwin Francis Description An account of the resource Edwin Jamros joined the US Coast Guard in 1940 because he knew the United States was going to war. After going to Ellis Island for basic training, he was assigned to the USS Joseph Dickman as an electrician's apprentice. While on the Dickman, he traveled to Africa, Australia, Italy and Scotland. His ship participated in the invasions of North Africa and Sicily. Edwin was discharged as an Electrician's Mate, First Class on May 22nd, 1945. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erichsen, Wallace J. (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Coast Guard Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-03-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb141af9ea8f550f0169d26c4a42a322.jpg 32f6c6416a3e925e9fbb16d76d1b0692 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Brigham-D_0148 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brigham, D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1988-07 Title A name given to the resource Jan and Geoff Brigham in beach tent Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Jan and Geoff in the shade of a 3-sided beach tent. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Children Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by D. Brigham as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87b461bdaca12d8d880a721dcd837b37.jpg bf469fa00dcde83bf0fe800451ab6cf3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Brigham-D_0141 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brigham, D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1988-07 Title A name given to the resource Jan and Geoff Brigham on beach Description An account of the resource Sepia-toned photograph of Jan sitting in the shade of a tent on a beach towel with son Geoff running into the sand. Circa 1990s Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Children Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by D. Brigham as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5ccc88cd58d6d469c6b46dffeb52b841.jpg 4eb0ed783b5ed6f5371fede5e36ee3a3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/37f5caddf6f2f48bf29b86bfa0d82536.jpg f22f8198c84747f59a5b14eb2647ef82 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_PHOT_1967-Jan-Termaat-recto_img090 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Unknown Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967-04 Title A name given to the resource Jan Termaat, 1967 Description An account of the resource Portrait photograph of Jan Termaat. Subject The topic of the resource Dutch Portrait photographs Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6e2e89cdfa1d5ad704d54383fba68093.jpg b6fe741768358d97f42d82a8810f1949 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000635 Title A name given to the resource Jan Zimmerman Description An account of the resource Jan Zimmerman with WGVC-TV equipment. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Faculty Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aac8b731d4dc43b0dbd427a14e25df6c.mp4 ed938dca55165e99bc76d3b7210b8371 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/baa25344f77443fa5ffe54e1c8078ad2.pdf d608b165b6e69d084ca9a67b5197a66c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Name of War: World War II Interviewee Name: Don Jandernoa Length of Transcript: (01:45:15) Interviewer: ―Don, I wonder if we could start off with, when and where you were born.‖ I was born in the little town of Pewamo on the 29th of January 1924, a town of about 500 people. My father was a veterinarian and we always wanted to have farms also, so when I was about seven, he bought a farm on the edge of town and that’s where I grew up. 1:35 Interviewer: ―What was your early childhood like? Were you a farm boy so to speak?‖ Oh yes, we had chores from the time we moved to the farm and by the time I was ten or eleven, I was milking cows and running tractors. As a matter of fact, we got my grandpa’s Model T and at the age of eleven I was running that Model T around the farm and at the age of 14, in those days, you could get a full-unrestricted license, of course there weren’t a lot of cars in those days, so it was quite a different thing. (02:30) Interviewer: ―Now you are very tall, were you a tall child? I got most of my height by the time I was 14. I about 6’2 ½‖, I’m shrinking a little bit with old age. (02:42) Interviewer: ―What was your early schooling like?‖ One year in the Catholic school and then it was depression time and they couldn’t afford to keep the school open, so we went to the public school, which was very strict. I remember, for example, when I was a sophomore one of my buddies came out of the principal’s office with blood running down his cheek. We couldn’t get away with things. In those days you got disciplined. The worst thing that could happen was if you got in trouble in school and your parents found out because you got more discipline at home, but that was a different era and physical punishment was not unusual. (03:15) Interviewer: “So just for your grandchildren’s sake, did you end up in the principal’s office at all?‖ One time when I was about in the third grade and I thought I would die. I was told to go upstairs to the principal’s office. I can’t recall the reason anymore, but I survived. Interviewer: ―Your father was a farmer and your mother was a homemaker?‖ Yes, my mother came from Holland at the age of 20 and she spoke English so well that most people didn’t know that she was an immigrant. They met here in Grand Rapids; my father came here to veterinary school and graduated in 1916. The Grand Rapids Veterinary School also was part of a medical school and the five of us [children] are all still alive, all 70-88 and all in good health even though we have fought cancer and heart 1 �disease, one has had a kidney removed, but for the grace of God, I lost a brother at 46 from cancer, but that was 25 years ago. (04:39) Interviewer: ―What was farm life like during the depression?‖ It was tough, but you didn’t know it. We were poor, but nobody told us. We had a good time. We had six horses and a big old Fortson tractor with steel wheels. Later we got a better tractor, we got down to four horses and then 2 horses and then in 1940, my dad traded the last team of horses in for another tractor and the word spread around the community that ―doc Jandernoa, the veterinarian, he’s gone daft because you can’t farm without horses.‖ That’s the way it was in those days, if you had 80 acres that was considered to be a pretty good-sized farm. We had everything, some of us milked cows, we had a few beef cattle and we had sheep, horses, 450 chicks every spring and a couple hundred hogs. We never suffered for lack of food. We also had two big gardens and I don’t feel about those so fondly because I was the oldest boy and I had to do most of the hoeing, but I survived it and it didn’t hurt me. (05:50) Interviewer: ―Did your parents and your home have a radio?‖ Yes, we had one of those old models with the arched top. There are probably some of them still around, but we would crowd around it in the evening; of course we didn’t have any TV then. As a matter of fact we had a radio out in the barn and it was December 7th, a Sunday evening, and I was milking the cows and all of a sudden I heard on the radio that the Japs had attacked Pearl Harbor. I don’t know where the milk went, but I ran into the house and said, ―Turn on the radio, war!‖ and of course I wanted to go to war, but my dad had other ideas. (06:30) Interviewer: ―Let’s back track a little bit. The reason I got into the radio part of it was, were you aware of the rumblings of war that were going on in Germany and Japan?‖ Primarily, because we had an outstanding superintendent of our schools who also taught civics and history and he delighted in talking about current events. So we watched Germany, I started in school in ―37‖ and Germany was building up it’s armed forces and it was 1938, I believe when Neville Chamberlain went over and signed documents with Hitler. We had that paper in school and it said at the tip, ―Peace in Our Time‖ and it showed Chamberlain getting off the plane waving the papers and he thought he had peace. Then within six months Hitler just moved on you know. (07:20) Interviewer: ―It’s a very famous picture, I know just which one you are talking about.‖ ―The reason I asked that is, I’m trying to get at the heart of the reason why you would eventually want to join. You had some knowledge of what was going on, did you have, even at that age, any kind of opinion if it was wrong?‖ Hitler was very wrong and we were very anti-Hitler, but on the other hand there were a lot of Americans who said, ―Well that’s their war and we don’t want to get involved‖, including Senator Vandenberg, who was from Grand Rapids and a very powerful man in the house and senate at that time, he changed his mind and became very pro-war. (08:00) 2 �Interviewer: ― People don’t realize that Charles Lindbergh, a very famous major American hero at that time, was touring the country was saying that we shouldn’t get involved in another war in Europe. So the radio announcement was a shock to you and your family as well. What about your neighbors were there talk amongst your group at church or something?‖ Interviewer: The draft started, see Roosevelt saw the war coming on and a few others did, so we started building up machines and armaments. I remember, we started the draft and one of my friends, who is still alive, went into the army back in 1940 as I recall and he was in for five years, so as a few more guys got drafted, you became more and more aware and thought is that going to happen to be etc, etc. (08:47) Interviewer: ―What about your father? You alluded somewhat to there being a disagreement as to whether you should join. What was behind that?‖ Well, dad was in WWI as a Veterinarian with about 200 guys, and would you believe that in WWI they still had a few battles where they fought with cavalry with horses and sabers and his job was to keep the horses in shape for that and horses were used a lot to pull the trucks out of the mud because they had those trucks with chains that drove the back wheels etc. He had been over there and he had survived, he had pneumonia, he didn’t get injured, but he just said, ―Hey I was in the last was, we’re just going to skip this one‖. (09:26) I didn’t feel that way because I wanted to get in there, you know. I just wanted to get away into the military. Interviewer: “Eventually you did get into the military. What was the process in all of that and how did it happen?‖ Well, I graduated from school on May 15th of 1941 and my dad said, ―If you stay on the farm for a year and work, I’ll help you go through Michigan State, which was Michigan State College in those days and is now a University, and become a veterinarian, which seemed like a good deal, but then on the 7th of December when the Japs attacked, everything changed. My dad was opposed to my going and I kept working on the farm. On the 5th of September in 1942 I heard the air corps was having a test in Grand Rapids, I mean in Lansing, and it was in the afternoon about 1:30 or something like that. Anyway, I hitchhiked, now dad probably thought I was on one of the farms and my mom thought I was on another farm, but in those days you could hitchhike. I had hitchhiked to New York and Minnesota and everyplace, so I hitchhiked to Lansing and I walked into what I think was the Elks building and as you walked in you were about four feet above the main level and it was about the size of a basketball court out there and I first saw U of M, I saw Michigan State, I saw U of D, Aquinas, I don’t know about Aquinas, but Notre Dame and these guys had obviously been at school for at least a year because you don’t get a letter when you start college, you get it when you have been there a year or two. (11:07) I was thinking I was in over my head, just a high school kid with no extra training and I paused and thought, ―nobody knows I’m here, my mother doesn’t know I’m here and my dad doesn’t know I’m here and I can turn around and nobody will ever know except me and God.‖ By the grace of God, I went in and took the test. The test took a couple of hours and I think the only reason I did well was because I used to read, I read an awful lot and we got a good education, but not a broad education. I was short for example on calculus; I’d never had that. So when everyone had their test and they’re 3 �calling people half the guys had left and I went up to the table and I said, ―Sir I’ve got to milk the cows, can I leave?‖ He said, ―What’s your name?‖ I told him and he looks over here and he said, ―Oh ya, you got a good score, you stay.‖ So, out of 83 only eleven passed, think of the odds. (12:08) Then they started giving us physicals. You had to have perfect eyesight, 20-20, so out of the eleven only four passed and one had to come back for a recheck on his eyesight, one guy had a bad cold, one guy had a hearing problem and I was the only guy that could go right then. The guy said, ―sign right here‖ and I said, ―I can’t.‖ He said, ―You want to go into the air corps don’t you?‖ and I said, ―Ya‖ and he said, ―Well sign.‖ I said, ―I can’t, my dad will kill me‖ and I meant that because in those days you weren’t an adult until you were 21 and I’m only 18 now. My dad used to say, ―As long as you put your feet under my table, I make the final decisions‖ so, I hitchhiked back home and I started working on my father to let me go and finally in November he said, ―Look you’re not a very happy camper, you might as well go.‖ On the 11th of November 1942, I went to join the air corps. (13:00) Now they said, ―Were too busy, we can’t take you now‖ and I didn’t get in until January. Interviewer: ―Why the air corps as opposed to the army or navy?‖ At the age of eleven, I went to the Ionia Free Fair and I had a few dollars and there was a Ford tri-motor and it went across this rough parking lot that is still there and I thought it was very interesting and I went over there and my sister gave me my money because they didn’t want me to tag along with them so, they said they would meet me at so and so at (05:00). I stood out there for a while and a guy was there with a card table and I sign and I said, ―Mister, how much would it cost for me?‖ He said, ―Three dollars.‖ I had three bucks so that was my first flight. I can still remember that it was corrugated steel and it was like going into a corrugated steel building. There were steel ribs and there was no insulation or anything. It pounded across the field, but we got up in the air and I swear the guy started turning for the landing the minute he got the wheels off, but that’s the way they made money. (14:02) That was my first experience. My dad had a farm which was across the road from the Lansing Airport and as a little kid I used to go over there with him and I am talking about 5,6 and 7 now, and I would stand under a tree and watch those planes take off. I used to say, ―Lord, I don’t want anybody to get hurt, but if there’s going to be an accident anyway, why don’t you have it right over there so I can see it?‖ Kind of odd, but I remember that very well. Interviewer: ―I have heard from Army Air Corps guys from WWII tell a whole myriad of stories, but they all came down to sometime in their childhood, they either saw a plane or they got into a plane and that was it. They had to get into an airplane and they had to fly. Some of them washed out and ended up as bombardiers, navigators, etc., but a few of them became pilots. So what was the next step then? Your father finally relented, what was your mother’s opinion of all this?‖ Mom was very supportive, I think she wanted me to stay home, but she wouldn’t block me and I had an older sister who was very much in my corner and she worked on dad I’m sure. (15:10) Finally I got a telegram, in those days a lot of people didn’t have telephones, but we did because my dad was a veterinarian. I got a telegram and it said to report on the 28th of January 1943, in Detroit at the old Fort, Fort Wayne, which is still there today, and so for the first time in my life, my dad and my mother and the 6 children 4 �went out to a restaurant. First time, you didn’t do those things in those days because you didn’t have the money. We went to ―Chicken in the Rough‖, which was a block east of Grand River and Michigan Avenue in Lansing, on the NW corner. What you got was you got a basket with chicken and French fries and no utensils. We thought that was fantastic you know and I got on the bus and went to Detroit and then got on a train, coal fired, and it took us 56 hours to go from Detroit to Miami Beach and everyone had on white shirts, we didn’t have green shirts or blue shirts in those days. You were told to bring one set of underwear, that is all so, we got down there and we didn’t get our regular uniforms for eleven days. Did you ever see shat a white shirt looks like after it has been washed out eleven nights? Anyway, they put us up in a hotel, which was a dream because I expected we were going to be in tents, but during the service, the armed forces took over a lot of the civilian things. Well, they took over some of the nice hotels and ours was a three-story hotel, it was kind of inconvenient because I had to walk a whole block over to the ocean and I had never even seen the ocean before, and we had to walk a mile up to the golf course where we did our training. (16:52) Then we had mail call and for mail call we would line up in front of the hotel, there were just a few civilians, and we would line up in three ranks and you had to be very proper and turn etc. We had a guy by the name of Klink, a guy by the name of Clank, a guy by the name of Damm, a guy by the name of Jordan, whose fiancé wrote behind his name ―The man I love‖ and they couldn’t pronounce my name so, mail call went like this: Klink, Clank, Klink, Damm, Damm anybody seen Damm? The man I love, and finally Geronimo, and that was me. (17:22) so that was an experience I can---there were two little guys, Sammy and the Greek and they were not more than 5’6‖, but they had voices that were 10’10‖ and you could hear them for 10 miles. A great experience, good discipline, a lot of effort, sweat like mad, but just a great start. Interviewer: ―Let’s back up just a little bit to your arrival at the hotel. You’re with a group of people from where?‖ Michigan I believe. Interviewer: ―This is a new experience to you though, what were your first impressions of the army life so to speak?‖ I loved it because of the discipline you know, I loved to run and we did a lot of running, a lot of exercise. The guy that led the exercise was the coach at Yale, I can’t remember his name, but he was a rather stout guy and he was only about 5’8‖ and they had an elevated bench, not a bench, but a stand out there and he’d get up on there and he’d have a couple of hundred guys out there and he would say, ―Were all going to do push-ups and I would look out of the corner of my eye and he would say one and stop and he would say two and stop and catch his breath, three and stop and then we had to do 50 push-ups and then we had to do 50 sit-ups, but it was great because we were young and strong, we were selected, we had good health and they pushed us hard and we enjoyed it and the challenge. (18:48) Interviewer: ―Mostly when you think of ―Boot Camp‖ you think of barracks, you think of the parade ground, but you are saying this was different for you, you were training on a golf course. I have only met one other veteran that had an experience like that. 5 �You gotta be pretty darn lucky. I have a dear friend, he was with me here about a month ago and he tells everybody, ―I was in a tent and the water was running right through the tent and I’m down here in Louisiana and it’s muggy and he’s in that hotel.‖ (19:19) Interviewer: ―What about chow?‖ Chow was good. Chow was so good, in some places that if we were in town, we would go back to camp to eat and then go back to town. On the other hand, in Nashville Tennessee, the food was so bad that we would go through the line and dump it out, we weren’t assigned, all we had to do was pick up cigarettes because we were waiting for assignment, and we would go buy our food at the PX. I think I found a reason for that and didn’t say anything at the time, but I watched as a guy took a pound bag of sugar and put it in the back of a private car and I got a hunch there might have been a little bit of hanky-panky going on because sugar was scarce. Interviewer: ―So how long was basic training at the hotel and the golf course and that area?‖ That lasted for two months and then we got shifted to a college training detachment and they had so many people in the ―funnel‖ we call it, that they decided to put us in college for twenty weeks, and twenty weeks was to equal a year of college. We had sixteen classes. I went to North Carolina State and the only thing that bothered me was Calculus. I worked really hard because I didn’t have any college and I trained myself all through my service, to get up a few minutes before reveille, I don’t know how I did it, but I did. I would get up a few minutes early and get a shower and get going before the other guys. I studied hard and I got only ten weeks because at the end of ten weeks they shipped us out, but that counted as a year of college. (20:54) Interviewer: ―During this period of time, basic training and as you went through this college, were you aware of what was going on in the outside world, were you able to read the newspaper and things like that?‖ Oh, very much so, very much so. We lived in the college dorms with two to a room, which there would usually be, we had good food, excellent teachers and we were ―GungHo‖, we took speech, history, everything we had in high school, but on a higher level and those grades counted for a half a year of college. (21:26) Interviewer: ―Was there an elimination process in this period? Because I know that later on there was a washout process.‖ Next you go to Nashville, Tennessee and now you go through the physicals and other tests, and all of a sudden they say, ―‖Sorry buddy, but you’ll make a good navigator.‖ Everybody wanted to be a pilot, or they would say, ―Sorry buddy, we just got too many and you’re going to be a bombardier.‖ That is what actually happened. You were sent there and then you were sent on to Montgomery, Alabama for another two months in the summertime, very warm, very muggy, and we had to run seven miles. I loved that because I was a good long distance runner. They had 204 guys and I would beat 200 one time and 201 sometimes. There was one little guy about 5’8‖, I call him little, and I couldn’t beat him and I’m still mad at him, but that was great because you sweat like a 6 �hog and then we had so much salt, you come back in and you empty your pockets and walk in the shower with your clothes on and rinse them out and hang them up and put them out on the line and put another fatigue suit on and go to class. That was classless mostly. (22:45) That was a great experience. You talked about the parade grounds. It was the 4th of July that year and the general said, ―Were going to have a parade here.‖ It rained and it rained and he put us our on the field with these brooms, sweeping water off of the field and we finally had our parade and there were other generals there etc. and I would say there were several thousand guys, but I can’t remember the exact number. I can still remember that we had to stand at complete attention and you weren’t supposed to move a whisker and a guy falls over here and a guy falls over there and you wouldn’t dare pick him up. Someone would come up from the rear and carry them out. That was discipline. (23:27) Interviewer: ―Fainting because of the heat?‖ Yes, but the thing is, they locked their knees. When you’re standing, never lock your knees. You got to have a little give there. Interviewer “You moved from a small farm, Grand Rapids was not nearly the size that it is today, just in terms of perspective, you were from a very, very small town, you’re in this area and now you’re in the south. Did you notice any difference being in the south as opposed to being where you grew up?‖ A town of 500 people and yes, I got on this bus, I think it was a spur of the moment deal and there was nobody up front. There were at least four and if my memory is right, there were five blacks in the rear of the bus, so I decide heck I’m going to try this system so, I go to the back and sit down and the bus driver says, ―Hey young man, officer sir, you in the uniform, come up here.‖ I said, ― I’m comfortable where I am‖, and he said, ― You sit up here.‖ I said, ―Look, I’m sitting here.‖ He said, ― I won’t move the bus until you come up here.‖ The people around me said, ―Sir he means it, you go up there, we got to get home.‖ That was my first experience because I didn’t—there were no blacks where I grew up. I had not seen blacks except when we went to Grand Rapids and very rarely even then. (24.51) Interviewer: ―Were there other experiences in the south, not necessarily with blacks, but just in terms of--the culture is different, they talk differently?‖ We found that charming, they have a different language, you might say. They had the USO dances, you know, and you get acquainted with the girls and that was part of the fun of it and if you were in the air corps, well, that was real good. Later on when you got your wings—oh man, that meant a lot to a girl. ―I want to marry a man who has silver wings‖ or something like that or a ―Man who has silver wings‖, there was a song something like that. Interviewer: ―Once you completed your training there in the south, where did you go from there?‖ Then I went to Georgia and I got basic training in a PT 17, which is an open cockpit, twowing, a great plane, that was so good that they said, ―If you get into trouble, get your hands off because it will fly itself ―, and it did. From there we went to a PT 13, which is 7 �more like a fighter plane and it had sliding glass in the cockpit and you were enclosed and it would go about 250 miles an hour, which was a big step up and then from there, I hoped to get into the fighter planes, everybody wanted to be a fighter pilot. I couldn’t, the said, ―You’re too tall.‖ They sent me to a twin-engine plane flying at Moody Field, Georgia and that field is still open today, by the way. When I graduated from there, I was in class 44C, which means A, B, C, and would be March. Then I had ten days to come home, strut around in my Lieutenant bars— Interviewer: ―Let’s for the family’s sake, and I know you’re a modest man, but this is the opportunity, OK—come home in your uniform to the farm, your mom and dad and everyone is there—Come on Don what was that like?‖ Oh, picture in the paper, you know—the first guy that had, in that area, ever become a pilot and this was big time and I called some of my old girl friends and had a date here and had a date there, in fact, one of them was a nurse at St. Mary’s Hospital and I came over to see her and I took her out to Ramona Park, they still had a roller coaster there and I think they still had a the steamer on Reeds Lake there that you could go out for a ride on etc. (27:11) Then I went back and now they sent me back to Montgomery, Alabama for training in a B-24 , which is a four-engine plane. Now, this is where you got into the more serious, I mean if you couldn’t handle that plane you got weeded out, but that was successful. While I was there, they took a bunch of us and they flew us up to Topeka, Kansas and they said, ―We want you to look at this B29‖, which was far bigger. That’s the one that dropped the Atomic Bomb on Japan and that was the main plane for bombing Japan during the war. They said, ―You can fly this as a co-pilot or you can go back and fly your B-24’s.‖ I said, ―I want to be a pilot, I want to be in charge.‖ We went back and continued with the B-24’s and from there they sent us to Lincoln, Nebraska where we picked up a crew, I didn’t know any of them, a nine man crew, and we went to Boise, Idaho to Owen Field, which is now the main airfield for Boise, Idaho. (28:14) Interviewer: ―Now, was this crew from all over the country?‖ See, we were in the so called eastern command, so I had two from New York, two from Pennsylvania, one from Detroit, one from Minneapolis, one from Chicago, and one from Indiana. Interviewer: ―You’re in charge of this group. You’re not only responsible for their discipline etc., but their lives?‖ Yes. Interviewer: ―What was your first impression of this group? I realize it is a long time ago, but what was your impression?‖ Well, some of them shaped-up real quick. I had one guy who was quiet, you never could quite figure him out, he was a loner, but he was just a gunner so, he got by. My co-pilot, he was a very—he was a better pilot than I was, but he didn’t want to be first pilot, what he wanted was ―Wine, women and song‖. That proved to be a problem so, I kind of broke him of that, he came in one day and we were practicing in Boise, Idaho and we are practicing as if we were in combat and you come into this room and you got 28 crews there and they’re all lined up in rows of ten, ten, ten, ten and it’s 5:00 AM and you’re 8 �supposed to stand-up and say ―All present and accounted for sir‖, and fortunately my initial is ―J‖ so I’m in the middle of the alphabet so, they get down to ―D‖ or ―E‖ and he’s not there. He’s not home from the night before and all of a sudden this barrel of whiskey goes right by and sits down next to me and I said, ―All present and accounted for sir‖. So, I decided, by the grace of God, that I got to break him of this so, he was a good pilot and we were flying number two in that particular formation and we have to be a little bit above and behind this guy, and were supposed to be out here where if you overshoot, you hit him. Well, I tucked it in and were flying with oxygen masks, this is combat flying supposedly, and I said, ―Bill you’re taking over‖, and he had to put his seat up and he had his oxygen mask on and he’d sweat and sweat and I’d look over at him and take mercy and I’d say ―Bill, I’ll take it‖ and would take over just long enough to get the sweat wiped off and then I’d say, ―Bill, it’s all yours‖, and I just wore him out and he didn’t say anything. The next morning he came in and he said, ―Jando‖, you win. (30:26) And that was the last time that happened. Interviewer ―Jando?‖ They couldn’t pronounce my name so they called me ―Jando‖. Interviewer: “It took me a long time to figure that one out myself.‖ We thought it came from the Alsace Lorraine, but were not sure, were still trying to trace it. Interviewer: ―Anytime during this period of time, you could have washed out, right?‖ Yea, at this point –yea, I didn’t realize it, but there were some pilots that washed out. I’ve got a friend who was a co-pilot, he is very close to me and he was in our group. He said to me that he lost two first pilots that washed out, which really surprised me because you’d have thought that by the time they got that far—but that happens. Interviewer: ―So, at this point in time, how aware of the war are you? Do you know if you’re going to Japan, do you know if you’re going to Europe? (31:17) We wanted to—I think inherently I wanted to go to Europe. Japan—first of all, I couldn’t swim very well. Secondly, Japan is long distances and Europe; you’re more familiar with that because of your background and studies. So, they ship us from there, Boise, Idaho to Topeka, Kansas and we got up there and they said, ―Were going to shoot you out of here in four days on a train bound for Newport News, but you’re going to get a four day pass. You’re not going to get a four-day pass, we’ll give you a one day pass and a three day pass, but don’t show the three day pass to anybody until it’s valid. The one day is for the first day.‖ Well, these guys—we didn’t know this and we thought about how we were going to get home, two guys got to go to New York, two guys got to go to Pennsylvania, one to Detroit, one to Chicago, Minneapolis—so, I called my sister and I said, ―I’m going to write a check for $400.00 and I’m going to give each one of these guys 50 bucks that don’t have money so they can go home. (32:19) The guys from New York had to actually go home, get home at night, spend the night with their family and get on the train the next day to get back, but it was home and we didn’t know if we were ever going to see home again. It was very well done and it was a great experience and I often wondered how they got by because if the M.P. on the train says, ―I want to see your 9 �pass‖, and with a one day pass he asked where you were going and the soldier said, ―I’m going to New York‖, ―On a one day pass, baloney.‖ From there we went to Newport News and then shipped over. (32:50) Interviewer: ―I want to go back to something you kind of ran right over. You said that you didn’t know if you were going to see home again. I think in terms of your crew, they probably thought those thoughts as well, but you have to be thinking of it even more so because you’re in charge of this. Was that something you were aware of, even at that young age?‖ That’s the responsibility of being an officer and especially being a pilot and I was lucky, I was—I wouldn’t say I was cocky, but I was sure. I had a great deal of confidence in myself, I had a great relationship with the lord and I just figured that if I did everything they taught me and use what God gave me, it was going to work out all right. There were times in combat when I began to wonder if he was trying us a little bit too much, but we did get back. (33:41) Interviewer: ―I wanted that point made, that there was an awareness on your part that your responsibility to these men and the fact that it wasn’t playing games, this was for real.‖ Well, that ran—if you were a leader, so you’re an officer, say you’re a Colonel or a General, the guys that really did the job; they bled almost when we bled, and we were a team. The guys in England got far more early, they were there earlier than we were in Italy, see we were in southern Italy and we would read the Stars and Stripes, everybody read that, Bill Mauldin was always in there, Ernie Pyle was always in there, I’ve got a few of those and I wish that I had kept every one, but you try to keep current and you think, ―Gosh they got the heck shot out of them.‖ (34:32) These are our buddies, and I wondered if any of them were guys from the group I went to school with. Interviewer: ―So you’re now on the brink of going into actual combat. Where did you go from there?‖ We went to southern Italy to Taranto, this is by boat and going over you zig zag going like this and going like that to avoid the submarines. It was beautiful; we didn’t have any storms or anything on the way over. The officers were allowed on deck and you get up there on deck and you weren’t allowed to have any lights and you can see the other boats over there and you keep looking and wondering if that’s a periscope or is that a submarine. We got there and it took us 13 days, which was an awful long time. (35:14) Interviewer: ―Had you ever been on a ship that size before?‖ No, I never had been on a ship before. Interviewer: ―Did you get sick?‖ No, by the grace of god I didn’t get sick. So, we pulled into Taranto and Italy is like a boot and Taranto is way down here in the arch and it’s Taranto as I recall and there are half a dozen boats as I remember all side by side and we’re talking back and forth and we’re there about three or four hours and the word is that this is just a stop over and we 10 �will go on to India and we’re going to be flying the ―Hump‖. All of a sudden the word came to grab your bags and get off. We got off, walked about a quarter of a mile and got on a train, this was a cattle car train, open slats on the sides between the wood and straw in there to sleep on. We got in there and about dark, I would say we weren’t in there more than a half hour, it was a car close to being a cattle car and to the old cars from WWI and then the train moved. (36:16) I woke up and there are an awful lot of unhappy people outside and I didn’t like some of the language, I didn’t know what it was, it was Italian. So, my friend Frank Batami was from Lodi, New Jersey, right across from New York City and I said, ―Frank, you speak Italian, what’s going on?‖ He said, ―Don, sir, somebody stole the signal lantern and we ain’t moving until they get it back.‖ I said, ―Oh gosh, put your shoes on, put your shoes on.‖ So, we jumped out and had to jump about that far to the ground and we went to the first car and knocked on it and said, ―Hey guys, somebody stole the signal lantern and if we get it back with no problems, we won’t even care, but if we have to come in after it‖---nothing happened. (37:00) We went to the second one and then the third and the door opened about eight inches and a hand came out, I took the lantern, the door closed and I gave it to the signal man and we went. If not, we might be there yet. Interviewer: ―This was at night?‖ Yes, this was at night. It was 1:30 or 2:00 in the morning. Interviewer: “Where did you arrive at?‖ Went to Bari, which was the headquarters for the 15th Air Force, it is a coastal city. Italy has a thorn over on the side and Bari is right there. Rome is way up here and we are directly across from Naples. And that was the headquarters and we were fill-in troops, we didn’t have our own complement so, some went to this field and some went to another. Whoever lost the most crews, that’s where we went. We went to the 454th, which was near Charignola and the first night they didn’t have a place for us to sleep, but they said they had no tents set up for us, but they had a new dining room cafeteria, the cement was a little green, but they said it would be all right. We put several layers of blanket down and slept on green cement. We’re all 18, 20-22 and I never got up so stiff in my life as I did from sleeping on that green cement. (38:21) the food was good there, but it was very limited. We had bread, always-good bread and that was good, lots of canned peaches and Spam, Spam, Spam. Never got any fresh meat, never got any fresh milk, but we survived. Interviewer: ―Give us an idea what this area was like. Did you have barracks there, was it a town, what was it?‖ A town of tents and there was a big old farmhouse and apparently it was sort of like a southern plantation. This farmhouse was so big that you could get 200 men in the basement for briefing, so that’s where we—they had a big map on the wall. This is where we’re going to bomb and this is the time and then you get this confidential information and they say, ―You got to be here at this time, there at that time and if you can’t see it, you go over to this alternate target‖ and that sort of thing. (39:08) 11 �Interviewer: ―Walk me through the routine. What time do you get up? You go to the farmhouse, you get the briefing, who is at the briefing.‖ My memory is that we had to be at the briefing by 5:30, but you are supposed to have a meal before that and either walk over there or if you were late, you might even get a Jeep ride. You get out to your plane, check everything, get your parachutes, in fact we got parachutes before we went to the plane, and we would ride ten guys on a Jeep, plus the driver. It was crazy. You’re hanging on. You’re standing in front of the driver or anywhere at all and then you would get everything together and eventually they would say, ―Start your engines‖ and you test each one and then you’re all set and you’re talking back and forth. You have a check list two pages long, you have to check every engine for this, this and this and now you release the brakes on top of your pedals and you taxi out. You get in a long line of 28 and there is a man standing there in a Jeep and he’s got a flare gun, he checks the time, 7:42, and he shoots the flare and the first guy takes off and he waits so many seconds, I think it was a full minute and the second guy takes off. You have to circle and circle until everybody catches up because you want to fly in formation for a pattern bombing because you are not each one using your Norden bomb sight, you got two or three and you drop the formation based on the first plane. (40:58) You have to go round and round and then you also want to be in formation because each plane had 10 guns and if we got 28 ships in one group, that means we got 280 guns. In that way if you get attacked you got a real chance, but if you’re all alone, a fighter has much more maneuverability and your chances are not so good. (41:19) Interviewer: ―What was your first flight like?‖ They couldn’t find me and this guy shakes me and we were in a new tent. It was the 5th of December and we had been there since the 6th of November and it was a brand new tent and they didn’t know where I was and I was right close to the headquarters and this guy shakes me and on a first flight, you don’t fly with your crew, you fly with an experienced crew. So I’m the only guy and he shakes me up and he said, ―You only got 20 minutes and you got to be there or it’s a court martial offense, grab your clothes.‖ So I’m putting my clothes on in the Jeep and we get down there and of course I had no breakfast and I get in the first briefing with the crew, don’t know the crew and I sat down next to Al Faxton, who was a veteran of a pilot. I didn’t know this until many years later that Al had gotten into trouble. He got drunk and had stolen a Jeep, not a good thing for an officer. I understand that they put him in jail for a while and so he was on the bad list and so we got the worst plane that was there. (42:16) Everything is going fine I’m sitting over in the co-pilot’s seat and he is in the pilots seat and he said, ―Everything Ok?‖ and I said, ―Yup.‖ ―Ok, let’s go‖, and he releases the brakes and he falls over backwards. This was this old formed metal it wasn’t steel. In other words, it was formed and it broke off in the front. This was an old plane and he is lying back like this and the crew chief and the radio operator and I think maybe we won’t fly. No, he called to see if there were any machine gun boxes on the plane. They had about a half dozen and he told them to bring them up to the front. So, they moved his seat forward and put the boxes behind him and pushed the seat back. He said, ―Ok, let’s go.‖ If we had gotten shot up, we had no way of getting out. Anyway, we took off and were flying ―tail end Charlie‖, last place, the worst place and were going to Poland, the longest flight we ever made, so when you go that far you worry about gas and the last guy has the most amount of adjusting to do 12 �because the lead guy, he doesn’t make any adjustment and the next guy makes a little adjustment and the next a little more etc. and you got seven more over here and seven more over there and some down below and the further you are back the more jockeying you have to do. When we came off the target two guys went to Russia because they didn’t have enough gas. (43:42) Interviewer: ―Was that an ultimate target?‖ Well, no we went to Russia for safety. Russia was on our side. We were going to Auschwitz in Poland, which was within three miles of the concentration camp, the worst concentration camp, where they killed millions. We were told and I remember that yet, ―Don’t hit the camp, if you can’t see your target, which was the railroads yards, don’t drop.‖ Well, it was clear so we could see the target. After the war a lot of people thought it would have been better if we had bombed Auschwitz. We would have killed people, but we would have saved a lot of lives because we could put those ovens out of commission and we would have saved lives. (44:16) Interviewer: ―So, you’re ―tail end Charlie‖ and this is your first flight, not with your crew, what was the experience?‖ A lot of flak and I have never been sick on an airplane, but would you believe this was the only time and I always feel this is a sign of weakness, but not having had any breakfast and we’re on a bomb run and you have to keep it level and I have to ―Pitch my cookies‖ and I have my oxygen mask on and I take it off and I have a steel helmet on and I hold it like this and the only thing that would come up was green you know and that is why I didn’t wear it anymore after that, but anyway the pilot, he was very understanding and that is the only time I ever got sick and it was on my first mission. I think, ―Is this a sign of cowardliness or what?‖ But, as I remember, not having any breakfast might have had something to do with it. I just put the helmet aside and put the oxygen mask back on and went we got home. Some planes just didn’t make it back because they ran out of gas. (45:20) I don’t know how many we lost over the target, but I don’t recall that we lost very many that day. That wouldn’t be a prime area for the Germans to defend. They wanted to defend their big factories and their gas making facilities. (45:38) Interviewer: “What was the experience of flak on that mission? You had never experienced it before had you?‖ No. Interviewer: ―You had been told about it, you knew about it, how was the actual experience?‖ Just, people think about it. They’re shooting at you and they want to hit you, not exactly. As an example, flak was a shell, if I recall, that is about 3 ½‖ in diameter and it didn’t burst on contact, it burst at a certain height. They were all the time trying to figure out, ―Let’s see, they are 20,000 feet, they are 22,300 ft., and they crank that into their guns and into the shell and the shell goes up to that height and breaks, it explodes and if you are within a couple of hundred feet of it, I don’t know just how far, but a couple hundred feet you get bounced. The worst I remember was coming back with 85 holes in my plane, but a lot of guys had a lot more than that and if the plane, Bill, I can’t remember his last name, but I still remember, it was a day I didn’t fly and he said, ―Don, you have 13 �to come down to the flight line.‖ I had just got back and I said, ―Fine‖. We walk down the flight line, we go through the bomb bay, go up on the flight deck and here is his seat right there and right here within 8 inches of the back of his seat you could look down and see the ground right there. There was a hole about this big and then he said, ―Look up‖ and there’s a round hole right above it. Now this shell, we’re going over 250 miles an hour and the shell, gosh, who knows how fast that’s going, but it missed him by a tenth of a second. (47:13) It didn’t burst because it burst at a certain altitude. By the way, most of them were black, I don’t know why, but every now and then they send up a red one or a white one. Maybe that was for celebration or something. Interviewer: ―On that first flight, it is your first experience in combat, flak is going off, did you see other planes getting hit and going down?‖ I didn’t see anybody going down on that first run, that happened later on I saw a lot of them go down, but not on that one. You know, on average we might have lost 10% , but there might be some flights where you would lose 30% and early in the was they even lost more. By the time I was there, the good part of it was that we had fighter protection. They had taken the P-51, the P-38’s in particular and put extra gas on them so they could fly with us and they would go with us almost to the target and then they would wait and when we got off target. Our flight guys were the Tuskegee Airmen and these were black guys, bright guys, great pilots and they had a wonderful record, but this is segregation time and there were many people in the armed forces who said, ―We don’t want them in the armed forces, they’re just going to screw up. They can’t handle it. They don’t have the brains.‖ That is pure malarkey. These guys recognized, I forget how many hundred distinguished flying crosses they got, they got all sorts of records and while they protected our bomb groups, we never lost a bomber, they were that good. (48:53) Interviewer: ―when did they come into the picture? You went on this first raid and then there were other raids that you went on.‖ Ya, they were with us by the time I started the first raid. I don’t know whether they went all the way to Auschwitz with us or not, I can’t recall that, but if we would go to Vienna or Munich or Bratislava, Czechoslovakia or Ploesti, they would be with us and we would get within the bomb run and the last two minutes you got to be on level and that’s where the flak is. They would leave and after, they would come back. (49:32) Interviewer “So, standard operating procedure was not only because of the gasoline on the fighter, but their job was to escort you to the target and then you were on your own?‖ Yes, and then when you came off, they were back to escort you back again. Interviewer: ―Obviously the German fighters aren’t going to go into the flak either. They are going to be hitting you either before or after.‖ Right. They’re sitting up there waiting for us and they were particularly looking for the stragglers and even if you lost an engine, you tried to stay in formation because you had more safety. The guys that got shot down at that time in the war were mostly the guys that had a problem that they couldn’t keep up. (50:07) 14 �Interviewer: ―Over the next few missions, were there any ones in particular that you recall? Were there any experiences that you felt were new to you?‖ We went to the St. Valentines Tank Works and we had a new guy, you know, what do you call him? The officer who explains what you’re going to do, I forget the name for that. He’s up there and he is a Captain and I don’t know what his background was, but he said, ―Guys it’s a milk run.‖ And we sigh and think a milk run, no problem and he said, ―Here’s Linz, here’s Steiger and here’s Graz ―, as I remember. He said, ― Here is the St. Valentine Tank Works right in the middle‖, now, the St. Valentines Tank Works has no defense, no guns, so if you come in on this level, I think it was 40 or 50 degrees, you come in like this and you drop your bombs and you turn over here and you come out with say 140 degrees going this way, they can’t touch you because you are just out of range. Wow, we think this is pretty good. We go t up there and I tell you, that was one of the worst missions I ever saw. Three guys ahead of me got shot down and what happened, the mistake he made was this—he thought we were out of range of these guns, but forgot that those guns were not at sea level, he was figuring everything was at sea level and they were up here on the side of a mountain, 5-10 thousand feet high. They just peppered us. That was a bad one and another one was—we got a new guy from the United States who was a Major (51:41) and he had been training in the United States and a good pilot I was told and he was leading his first flight and he wanted to become a Colonel and so he had to lead. We’re going after a bridge up in Hungary as I remember that was April of 1945 and we’re carrying 3,000 lb. Bombs, just one per plane, normally we would have several 100 lb bombs., a few 250’s, several 500 lb. Bombs, but we were trying to get this bridge in the mountains, this railroad bridge and every plane had one 3,000 lb. bomb and they said, ―If we can pattern bomb, all we have to do is break off one part of that bridge, but don’t drop your bomb in the Adriatic if you can’t drop them on target. We haven’t got anymore and we have to keep these.‖ So, we get up there and I’m flying number 3, number 4, pardon me. You have three planes here. This is the lead plane and these two are on his wings. There’s three more like that and I’m number 4 down here, so I got a guy on the wing and there’s a guy below me. I’m in Charlie box over here. (52:45) The target is just behind this wall of weather, were out and everything is clear and we’re going higher and higher and it’s like somebody said, ―Hey, here is a wall and all you have to do is get up here and it’s all ok.‖ But, it was over 25,000 feet and we couldn’t be sure so, were weaving like this and when you get at 24,000 feet and you’re hanging on your ―Pops‖ as they call it. You just don’t have enough thickness of the air, I guess density is what they call it, and at the last minute he turns off. He didn’t turn off in time. We’re in Charlie box and we go into the clouds. Now, you talk about praying, as we go into the clouds, he also dropped his nose and we did too so, we’re going and going down and I’m thinking, ―What should I do? There’s a guy on each wing below me, there’s three up there, I better not do anything.‖ I didn’t do anything, I didn’t do anything and finally I said, ―Lord, I’m going to count to ten, I got to pull this thing out—we’re going over 450 miles an hour and we’re not supposed to go that fast.‖ At the count of 9, we broke out. This guy’s gone, this guy’s gone that guy down there’s gone the guy back there’s gone, but this guy is right there and if we would have pulled up we would have hit him so, you talk about prayer. Again, that’s part of the training, you learn to make decisions and you never know—you have to know how to parachute, you don’t practice that, but you have it in your mind. (54:25) 15 �Interviewer: ―Was there a sense the training was so accurate, the training was so intense and you had this definite focus, that it almost became 2nd nature, there were these things that you did.‖ It was but, it was also fear and we have to admit and it will be in the annals. You see, the Norden bomb sight, that was the bombardier and at that particular time everything was connected to that and he’s controlling the plane and he’s the lead one and if he gets shot down, his right hand man is doing the same thing. So, everybody’s flying off of him, ok? Now, if the flak is getting real bad and he gets afraid, all he has to do is turn the bombsight forward and when it hits a certain spot the bombs drop. Sometimes guys got afraid and dropped their bombs here instead of there. (55:23) That could happen. I was afraid many times and I wanted to get the heck out of there, but I said, ―No, I accepted this, I signed up and I was in for the duration.‖ Interviewer: “There did come an incident though that was far more dramatic than any of the other experiences.‖ Well, this is more of personal experience. We’re going to Mussbayrbaum oil refinery, which is right on the edge of Vienna, by the way, I want to bring this out into today’s world, Hitler produced approximately 90% of their petroleum from coal and they did that at Mussbayrbaum and what was the one over in Hungary? It will come to me in just a minute. They defended these very well so, we Re going over the Mussbayrbaum oil refinery and this is the first time I went over there, I went back twice getting shot bad and they get our wing tanks. We got sealing wing tanks normally, but we were losing gas, so we come down off Vienna, off Mussbayrbaum and we go over to Yugoslavia and we head down the Adriatic Sea, just off Yugoslavia. They wouldn’t shoot at us there because if you go over land, there might be a gun in there. We’re watching this gas and pretty soon oh, oh, we Re trying to make it to a landing strip with a 3,000 ft. runway, which is too short for our plane, but it was an emergency and maybe if we could get in there, we could put the parachutes out on each side and stop the plane before it hit the mountain at the end of the runway. (57:02) I’m glad we didn’t get there because when I did get there the following day, I found two B-24’s plastered against that wall up there, that mountain. So, by the grace of God, we ran out of gas 13 miles short and naturally I’m saying, ―Let’s get back over to land because we can’t get down there.‖ I turned left toward Yugoslavia and I could see a few mountains there and I know the Isle of Alavar was right there—Alavar is about 22 miles long and 2-4 miles wide and the peaks are up to, they say, 24-28 hundred, something like that, but there was a cloud cover almost solid, not quite solid, so we could see a few mountains so at 17,500, I told the guys to start bailing out. Well, it’s my job to hold the plane, so when I left the cockpit we’re at 7,500 feet and the ten crew member I had, they all drifted over the island. I didn’t have enough time, there was a strong North wind more by the grace of God than anything else. There was one other problem. In the plane, and this almost cost me my life, here is the cockpit and there’s a red button right down there and the only purpose of that red button is to give an S.O.S. if you are in dire need and we had a radio tower in southern Italy and we had one in Yugoslavia, or somewhere in our territory, and we had one close to the German lines and they would intersect like this, there is a name for it, but it escapes me, and they would say, ―We say 16 �it’s there and we say it’s there and he says it’s there.‖ They would find the spot and send out rescue people. (58:47) That day I had a strange, it wasn’t my regular pilot and that was his job and he didn’t push the button, so nobody looked for us. I bail out and I can’t make it to land, so I land in the water, get rid of my parachute, open my sea drop marker, which makes an area of about 50 –100 ft. in diameter, which is yellow, so if you are flying over you look and see it. Interviewer: ―Now, looking back for just a minute. What about your crew?‖ They all went out before me and they all drifted. Interviewer: ―You gave the order for them to go, so they went out and you came out last?‖ I came out last. Forty years later when I joined my association, which I didn’t even know existed, my name was listed in the magazine and I got a phone call from a guy and he said, ―I’ve been looking for you for over forty years and I only flew with you one time. You don’t know me, but I was your substitute bombardier and I only flew with you one time and then you bailed out. I’m not only looking for you, but I’m looking for the nose gunner because I want to see if the implant of my boot is still where I put it because he hesitated when he was supposed to bail out.‖ (60:00) Those guys fortunately all lit on land. One had an injured and the rest of them had only minor things. My navigator was a very religious guy and the only married man on the crew and he hit his head when he was going through an apple tree and he said, ―I can remember this, I was at attention on my back, with my hands folded in prayer and I’m looking up there’s this parachute up here and it’s waving in the wind and I don’t know if I’m in heaven or on earth.‖ Anyway, I lit in the water got rid of my parachute and I opened my ―Mae West‖, that was what we called the life jacket, and it came around your collar like this and around the front like this. It kept you back to keep your mouth out of the water and if you swam, you had to go like this. Then realizing that as I got soaked with water, I got heavier and heavier, I threw away my gun, threw away my knife, threw away my boots, threw away my gloves, threw away my hat or helmet or cap and started to swim. (01:01:10) It’s the 31st of January, I’m a quarter of a mile from shore and I’m not a good swimmer and I swam and swam and swam and yelled and yelled and prayed and prayed and swam and now I’m getting blue. Interviewer: ―It was cold?‖ The temperature is below 45 degrees. That’s the average temperature. They say it’s probably around 44 or 43. Pretty soon you can’t move anymore and so I’m still praying and still yelling as long as I could and finally I got to the point where I couldn’t talk and I look up and here comes a Spitfire, one of the best planes ever made. This is a British plane and he sees that air sea dye marker so, he comes down like this. Since we were all gone about an hour late, they finally sent people out looking for us. (01:02:03) He comes down and he goes back up like that and I said, ―Too bad, you could have been a hero—wait—if you drop a raft, I can’t get in it, you can’t land, you could have been a hero. Too bad.‖ He turns around and he comes back down and I said, ―Pull out, pull out you damn fool, you’ll kill yourself.‖ He goes up and he goes off. He sees something that I don’t see and as he disappears, somebody grabs me on the back and here was this fishing boat with four men in it, three of them were—one guy could barely stand, as a 17 �matter of fact he was in his 80’s, and only one guy under 65 and a 14 year old boy. My crew are bailing out over here and here is Havar and they walk this way, they knew we were in safe territory, I was over here on this side, so these guys were from this town of Storygrad and there getting wood and they debated whether they should help me. The week before, somebody had been out in the water fishing and a German patrol plane came down and riddled it and four guys got injured. So they are debating if they should go or not. The other problem was that the German patrol planes usually came down about 3:00 and they hadn’t been there and it is now (01:03:15) and is he late or isn’t he coming? They supposedly, after debating, the 14 year old boy said, ―We got to, we got to.‖ They prayed, I believe in prayer, but I’m glad they didn’t pray too long, and they started rowing. They say I was in the water for an hour. It’s been debated whether you can live that long in the water, but then more recently I have talked to doctors who said that if you’re young, in good health and have a desire to live, you can survive. (01:03:54) So they grabbed me at the last minute, pulled me in the boat, took all my clothes off except my shorts and this 14 year old boy had two pair of leggings, I call them, that came down to the knee and he took one of those off and put those on me, somebody gave me a shirt, somebody gave me a sweater and they start rowing. I’m sitting on the boat and I can’t talk and I can’t do much of anything and they row for a while and I’m beginning to feel a little bit and I smile a little bit—It’s funny, I don’t know why I did this, but I said ―Americanski‖, why I put the ski on it, that’s in Poland that is 500 miles away, maybe 800 , but later on, in fact last year, I met a guy who had a similar experience and he said, ―The first thing I said to the Yugoslav’s was ―Americanski‖.‖ So, I guess that’s us American. Anyway, they said, ―Ya, ya.‖ I said, ―Germans‖ and they said, ―That way.‖ They couldn’t speak any English. (01:04:51) They kept rowing and this kid kept massaging my legs and we got back to shore and they took me down—this town is built—it’s about three miles to this point down here and this town is built right around that little dot there and it’s an old town and this island was settled before the time of Christ. It’s all rock, beautiful water, good fishing, but all rock and very difficult to raise any food. They carried me like a guy who’s got a bad leg from football and they carried me down the street. We go upstairs and this is a building like you might see in any small town. Go to Lowell for example, the first floor of this building has got—it’s a retail store—tall 16-18 feet high and there’s going to be stairs outside where you can go up. The shopkeeper lives up above. So, they take me up there and they get me into a kitchen, which is surprisingly large. I would say maybe 14x14, which is large for a kitchen you come up the stairs and you go just like this there’s the kitchen and in that corner, in the opposite corner, is a stove just like we had back on the farm. It was a cook stove and you put the wood in here and the ashes are down here and here’s the oven and the smoke and the fire go around the it heats the reservoir of water over here and then goes on up. (01:06:16) So, they took me over there, opened the oven door and put a couple of sticks of wood in and set me on a chair and put my feet in the oven. Now, I don’t believe in cooking your legs, but that felt pretty good at the time and they really stuffed this stove. Then they took off everything I had up here and they started rubbing me. Then George arrived and George and I became good friends real quick. George was 75 years of age and I’m 21 and he had lived in St. Louis, Missouri from 1900 to 1925, so he spoke English very well. George sits where you are, I got my feet in the oven and everybody in town had to see me. This is the first American you 18 �know, so everybody clump, clump, clump up that stairs and they stand over there and they talk to George and George to me and back and forth , so were getting better and I’m feeling a little better and George says. ― You got a phone call.‖ ―Phone call? You got telephones?‖ ― Ya.‖ ―Where is it?‖ ―Down the street, can you walk?‖ ―I don’t know, but let’s try.‖ So, we go down there and the phone is on the side of a building and this is the part you speak in and the other part is on a rope and you put it up here, it’s the old stuff, so I said, ―Hello‖, and this voice said, ―Jando, oh it’s good to hear your voice.‖ And I said, ―Al how are ya‖, he was my navigator, and he said, ―Fine, how many you got with ya?‖ I said, ―I’m alone, how many you got?‖ and he said, ―Nine with me.‖ And I said, ―Wait a minute, nine and one is ten, what happened? Who’s missing?‖ He said, ― Batami.‖ ―Oh god‖ I said, ―How many parachutes did you count?‖ He said, ―I counted nine beside myself.‖ I said, ―that’s what I counted, do you suppose his parachute didn’t open?‖ (01:08:03) So, he said, ―look we got a Brit here and he’s got a stripped down American PT boat and he’s going to take us around in the morning. We’re going to come around and pick you up and we’re going to go back around the island and then we’re going to go down to Vis, where we wanted to be anyway, and then we’ll fly back to Italy.‖ But, he said, ―I guess all we can do is pray, are guys are ok, banged up a little bit.‖ So, I said, ―We have to pray.‖ So, we go back upstairs and George is talking and I’m still sitting by the fire and George says, ―Don,‖ by the way, they fed me something that looked like a Lima Bean, it was about that big and it was purple. I hated them, but when you’re in Rome you know—I ate it and they did have a little brown bread and they had chicory for coffee. That’s a green weed that has almost no leaves on it. That’s what their coffee was. And so I ate and their people kept coming up and finally George says, ―Don, this is very important. You are our guest and I want you to listen to me, you are our guest and we’re going to make you a gift. To my knowledge it’s the only one on the island and you must accept it. Do you understand me?‖ Ok. I trusted him. So, a man steps out of the line over here and he comes up and he’s got his hands like this. Just pretend you never heard this story. It’s the only one on the island, it’s the 31st of January 1945, and these people have known nothing but war since 1938, what’s in his hands? A thousand dollars if you guess it. He had a can of Spam. Of all the things that I didn’t want—I hate Spam. I had Spam for breakfast that morning; I had Spam the night before and the day before I didn’t fly and as I remember we had Spam for lunch. That was a part of our regular meal, we never had any fresh meat. We had a place to eat and a place to sleep, which wasn’t true of a lot of guys who were on the ground. 10:13 Anyway, I ate Spam. Now they want to have a drink and I didn’t drink in those days and I said, ―I’m sorry, I don’t drink.‖ Then he said, ―Oh, I got some good news, your man has been found and he is ok.‖ Well, Batami thought we were above the German lines and as he hid out it got colder and colder and there was a little snow on the ground, but not much and he got to thinking we were above the German lines and then he got to thinking, ‖Earlier in the evening I heard some of our guys laughing, so if they’re laughing it must be ok.‖ So, he walks into town and they call over etc. Now George says, ―You got to have a drink.‖ And I said, ―Ok.‖ So they gave us little glasses like this you know and 6 or 8 men over here by the wall and they line up everybody and they put this white lightning in there. I had never drank before, they had beer back on the farm as a kid, but I just decided in the service that was one thing I didn’t need to do. (01:11:05) So, now we have a toast to the three leaders of the free world. I asked the high school kids this and I 19 �laugh at how few of them can figure it out I say free world because if I just say world, some of them will say Hitler and we’re not going to toast Hitler. So, we would say, ―To Churchill, to Stalin, to Roosevelt.‖ They would leave and more guys would come in and we would do it again. ―To Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill.‖ It was funny; I would love to have a picture of that. We were really excited I mean we were boisterous. ―To Churchill, to Roosevelt, to Stalin.‖ Finally I got to thinking, ―You know I’m probably the only American they have ever seen so, I can’t be a fool.‖ So, I sipped the stuff instead of drinking it and finally I said to George, ―I’m tired.‖ And George said, ―Ok.‖ I don’t think I was tired, I think I just wanted to get away. (01:12:05) Interviewer: ―How many shots did you have?‖ Oh gosh, I don’t know, I don’t know. I felt that we were warm on the inside I can remember that part. I would imagine it was pear juice or something like that. It was powerful. They put me to bed and they put me on a tick mattress and most people don’t know what a tick mattress is, but you take two pieces of canvas and you stitch them together all the way around and you leave one side open and you put rope through that and you stuff it with straw and you sleep on it. When the straw gets all matted down, you throw that away and put more straw in it. Then they gave me a cover and I swear it was that thick and it felt so good. (01:12:41) The next morning I had breakfast and about 10:00 the other guys came over there. I have some pictures of us on this ship that I should have brought along. We’re waving to everybody as we leave. They took us to this Brit, who later on became a good friend, and he came to America and we were good friends until his death about five years ago. We went around the island, down the beach, got on a C-47, flew back to Italy, had to do through a check at the hospital and five days later we are back over Germany. I figure the logic behind that was to get you back over that before you lose your cool. Interviewer: ―Did you have very many missions after that?‖ That was mission number five and from then on I flew with my own crew. I felt more comfortable then because I knew the men and I had a total of 23, so I had 18 more missions. We flew northern Italy, northern Yugoslavia, Bratislava, Czechoslovakia Munich, Linz as I remember, Steiger, St. Valentines, Vienna a couple three times, Hungary that one time we couldn’t drop the bomb that way that time. We couldn’t see the target. We had to carry that bomb home. (01:14:01) That was the difference, usually when you land you’re empty and you got little or no gas left, your bomb load is gone so you know how to land because that is the way you have been landing this plane all along, but if you got a heavy bomb load in there and you come in I thought, ―Boy you got to bring this thing in low‖, and I almost greased it. I think I was within two feet of the runway when I pulled the throttle back and it really hit hard. It wasn’t my fault, it was just that—and of course those bombs, just for the record, when we took off those bombs were not activated and when we landed they weren’t activated. What you did was—they had a little propeller in the front and they had a little wire through them so it couldn’t turn and as long as that wire was in there and you crashed, we had plenty of planes that crashed, the bomb wouldn’t burst unless it broke up on the ground. (01:14:51) So, when you got ready to drop them you had that wire out and if you 20 �brought them back, you had the wire back in, but just the idea that it’s back there is not the most comforting thought though. Interviewer: ―Give me an idea of—I’m not, I hope I’m not being callous here, you get up in the morning to go on another mission, you’ve got a crew of people at you’re responsible for, you know you’re going into danger—first mission, second mission you have to bail out at one point and after that you still have many missions to go. Does it become ritual? Does it become rote? Or is it that you are constantly on, are you worried about things or are you on automatic pilot? I’m trying to get a sense of what the experiences of going one mission and then another mission and another mission, it’s not like you got an end in sight, you’re going on these missions and people are being shot down.‖ Our objective was to get 35 missions in and whatever guy got 35, we celebrated and he could go home. Of course that’s what we were all hoping for, but then as the war went on we had more and more guys and more and more planes. We would put up the 15th Air Force on an all out day about 1500 planes. Normally it was about 1,000 and so you hoped that you would get your 35 in, but as the war went on and after our troops made the landing, they did that after we got over there, on the beaches of Normandy, but we’re fighting and it looks like we’re going to win, so we just said, ―Will we get done or not?‖ I think the test was near the target, you remained pretty well relaxed, you weren’t allowed to talk to one plane or another, you could talk within the plane and you had what we call an oxygen check about every ten minutes. (01:16:55) The problem was, you had to have oxygen. These planes were not pressurized and the way we kept our warmth is we had electric gloves and pants and jacket and they hooked that into the plane. We also had to have oxygen because we’re flying, you know, 22-24 thousand feet, so if you got disconnected from the oxygen , you could easily pass out and in the time I was there, I can only remember a couple that died that way. That was the idea of the oxygen check, you’re supposed to do it every so many minutes. (01:17:32) It wasn’t my responsibility, it was one of the crew members and if somebody didn’t do it and the guy was without oxygen long enough, that was it. Interviewer: ―So really, from my understanding is that you had enough routine things that had to be done before you got to target, but once you got to the target, you didn’t have control anymore? You were going to be shot at, you had control, but not the same kind of control you had getting up there?‖ You got control, you want to stay with your lead plane, you stay close and you don’t do any maneuvering at all as you get near the target. Later on as you are coming back home you might move out and you don’t have to be so careful, but the closer you get to the target, that’s where the stress is and a lot of prayers and when you saw a guy go down the first thing you do is get on the intercom and shout, ―Count the parachutes, count the parachutes.‖ You hope for ten and you didn’t always see ten. The problem with getting shot down is that say the plane loses a wing and starts into a spin, the chances of getting out are almost nil because it forces you up against the wall of the plane, so you prayed that you wouldn’t get into a gyro like that and have to go down with it. (01:18:56) If you bailed out you had a pretty good chance—I talked to two guys that bailed out, one broke his ankle, but he could still walk and they come down from the mountain in Germany and get a farmer and the farmer tells them to follow him into town and they 21 �near the town and here comes out a policeman and he tells them to kneel down and he puts his gun to their head like this and he pulls the trigger and it goes ―click, click‖ and he looks at it , points it in the air and ―Bang‖, and then the farmer says, ―Nix, nix.‖ You’re not supposed to kill an innocent—we’re enemies and he was a prisoner, but you’re not supposed to kill a prisoner. That was a guy that I knew, but I found this out long after the war. (01:19:46) The worst part when you bailed out was the fear that you would get shot from the ground or sometimes by a fighter plane. Last fall we had out annual reunion and we had about 150 guys there, this was of the bomb group and I had them sign in as a testimonial to the Tuskegee Airmen. I said, ―If you want to leave a message, I would like to know your name, what you remember and your message.‖ One guy said, ―Thanks for saving my life twice.‖ One guy said, ―thanks for saving my life, they were going to shoot me because I was in a parachute coming down in Austria and the German Messerschmitt was after me and you chased him off.‖ Messages like that. Interviewer: ‖I read every one of them because you gave me a copy. It was very moving.‖ That’s right, I gave you a copy. I wish I had thought of that, it should have been done 60 years ago. There is still the problem of racial. When we got out of the war we didn’t know any blacks. These guys saved out lives, but we weren’t supposed to mingle with them. Ridiculous. (01:20:55) Interviewer: ―To touch upon that, were you aware of, within your group, not just your crew, the group of people that you were around, initially there was a shift that went from, they didn’t want the Tuskegee airmen in there because they didn’t think they were competent, to the point that they were being asked to be on missions. Were you aware of that?‖ No, we were not aware of that, but it became apparent. We heard a little bit, but they kept those things quiet. I only know of one guy who met the Tuskegee Airmen before he went overseas and he was in Montgomery Alabama and he said that he knew the Chaplain real well and the chaplain took him down there and he met a few guys. He is the only man in all of my life—then I know of another guy who met one overseas, probably in town, but these guys, their bases weren’t near ours. They could be much closer up north because they didn’t have to fly as far. They didn’t have to get up when we did. We had to get things formulated and they just had to take off and fly. (01:21:58) they were very dedicated guys and I’ll tell ya, they had ―Red Tails‖ P51’s, a single engine plane, I think and most people think was the best fighter plane the U.S. had and they had red tails. That’s what they were distinguished by and they did one heck of a job. Interviewer: ―I think it’s commendable that you’ve made an effort to not only contact them, but you’re now a member of the Tuskegee Association.‖ Well, that came about; I have to tell you about it. I met one of them about six years ago and we became friends, he lives in Detroit, and I said, ―Dick, how many missions did you make?‖ He said, ―Eighteen and a half.‖ I Said, ― What do you mean eighteen and a half?‖ He said, ―I didn’t get back from the last one.‖ I said, ―Were you a P.O.W.?‖ He said, ―Yes, I remember waking up in this plowed field, I bailed out at low altitude. I was strafing in southern France and I had a broken leg and I’m lying in this muddy field that 22 �had been plowed and that helped. They healed my leg and they put me in prison.‖ I said, ―How many people were in that?‖ He said, ―Over ten thousand. Airmen, almost all of them were Airmen.‖ I said, ―How many were black?‖ He said, ―Seven.‖ I said, ―Only seven? How did your American officers treat you in the P.O.W. camp?‖ He didn’t answer me right away and then he said, ―Let’s put it this way, the German guards treated us better than our own fellow officers.‖ You can almost cry at that because these guys were risking their lives just like we were. (01:23:43) As I got to know these people and I went to a couple of their dinners down in Detroit, they are different than our group. We either charge no dues or charge $10.00 just to get the bulletins. They charge $85.00 a year. I said, ―What do you do with the money?‖ He said, ―Well, we have a program out at the Detroit city airport. We have four training planes and if a kid wants to learn to fly, we teach him to fly. We sponsor ROTC in the Detroit high schools because our kids need discipline.‖ They’re talking about black kids. He said, ―If they learn to fly and they like flying and they want to go on to become a commercial pilot, we’ll put them of to Western Michigan University at their flying school over there.‖ Last fall they got 30 new planes and I had no idea the program was that large, but WMU got 30 new planes for training. I said, ―Dick, how long have you been doing that?‖ He said, ―Oh, quite a while, some guys have gone through the program and become commercial airline pilots and retired. We started in the early 50’s.‖ They don’t tell anybody this and this is something so positive. I said, ―I would like to join an outfit like that.‖ To my knowledge, I’m the only white member of the Detroit chapter. (01:24:57) I carry my membership with me as a matter of fact. Here it is. I’m very proud of that. It is interesting to see that somebody—they are leaving a legacy and let me tell you what is happening to my two groups. I belong with these guys that all learned to fly at Douglas, Georgia in these little puddle jumpers with open cockpits, different classes, but we have that in common and we’ve got a carload of memorabilia and thank god we got a place, they finally put together a museum there and were going to take it down there, but the other group, which is all the people that flew in the 454th in Italy, a much larger group, we got carloads of stuff and nobody knows where to put it. There’s a legacy, but there is no legacy. These guys are leaving a continuing legacy because anybody who wants to support their ideas can join their group. We hold ours to members or their widows they have a great idea. Interviewer “I had the honor of meeting the Southern California Chapter of the Tuskegee Airmen because of my documentary on the Flying Tigers, I would go to air shows and hawk my product and I would be there with the Flying Tigers and there would be the Tuskegee airmen and the Navaho Code Talkers. For a period of about three years I had a chance to sit next to them and talk to them and my great honor with them is that I have a picture that was in their newsletter of me handing a copy of the Flying Tigers to the head of their organization in southern California and having them hand a copy of the Tuskegee airmen to me, so we were shaking hands and I still have that and I am very proud of that?‖ Interviewer: “I want to wind up with the first of all you were mentioning earlier that you figured that America was winning the was. Was there a point when you realized it was ending? Did it come at V-E day or did you actually see that it was ending very soon?‖ (01:27:15) 23 �I think we realized it. To become a Captain at that time, I was now a first Lieutenant and I had been there six months and to become a captain one of the requirements is that you had to lead a mission and they said, ―You’re ready and we’re going to schedule you.‖ I think the date was the 5th of May. Well, in April you’re having fewer flights, you’re reading that we’re advancing our troops and we think the end of the war is pretty close. We still lost guys on the very last mission, but anyway that flight that I was supposed to lead never went because we were winning the war. The war was over as I remember it the 10th or 12th of May. So, I never made that mission and I guess philosophically I would rather be a live Lieutenant than a dead Captain. (01:28:14) We realized it because there were fewer flights, they were less intense, we lost fewer planes and we had brought Germany to her knees by cutting off her fuel. Interviewer: ―What happened on the announcement of victory in Europe?‖ The camp went wild. I think there were some contrived fireworks, I don’t know where the beer came from, but there was a big party. We were ecstatic. It’s over, it’s over, it’s over. Then you got bored because you had nothing to do, so about a week or ten days later I got a letter from my friend Jack Daverin, who just died about a month ago, less than that, two weeks ago, and Jack was on a Red Cross ship. He was in the Army, but that was his job, going back and forth bringing back people who are injured. He had written to me three weeks earlier and said, ―I’m headed for Europe.‖ I thought he was giving me a message and I went down to one of my Captains and I told him my men were getting a little anxious and that I would like to take them out for a little gunnery practice, he said to take a plane, the war is over, so we go out and we shoot a few gunnery practices and then we flew over to Naples and we got binoculars with us and sure enough there’s his plane sitting in the harbor, so I go back and put the plane down and the next day I hitch hiked over there and he gave me some steak. Now, it’s three weeks old, but it was steak and he gave me some milk and that was three weeks old. I don’t know how they kept it, it wasn’t the best, but it was the first I’d had in a long time. We spent a night together and that was a great experience. (01:30:08) You did some stupid things too, I remember we’re cruising along, I don’t know if it was that flight or another one, we’re cruising along the shoreline watching everybody on shore, just looking. You’re supposed to be flying the plane and it’s awfully easy to get distracted, so I’m glad nothing happened. I could’ve easily, and some guys did, they got too low and ―Bingo.‖ Interviewer: ―Was there any talk about going to Japan?‖ All of us thought we were going to Japan. We flew back from southern Italy, the end of June we flew to Marrakech Africa, from Marrakech we flew to the Azores and the Azores were socked in. there are a few island around the mountains and the main runway was 11,000 feet long and it’s socked in and we’re coming in on radio. You have signals like this one is dod-dit and this one is dod-dit and in-between it buzzes and that’s the best thing you had for landing, but you didn’t know if you were on that side of the landing field or that side, so we’re in a storm and it’s raining like mad and we let down and I got nine guys with me and their all looking on and we get down to 300 feet and we finally saw water and all of a sudden we see a wall in front of us and it’s too late to turn either way, so what I did is bring it up and right there’s the runway. (01:31:43) I was about 200 feet below the runway. I have since talked to a guy who was there and I knew him for 24 �two years in the Air Corps and he said, ―Don, you weren’t the only one, that happened more than once. What a sigh of relief, it’s got to be there I hope. The first thing we did by the way and I haven’t asked this in a long time, but ―What do you think we asked for?‖ Interviewer: “Milk?‖ Milk and ice cream, those two things are what we wanted, we didn’t want no beer, we wanted milk and especially ice cream. I think everyone had two malted milks. Interviewer: “It was a taste of home.‖ A taste of home and from there we flew to Gander Newfoundland and from there to Westover Field where we parked our planes and they kept flying them out to Arizona where they put them in a row out there and let them set there for years and years. (01:32:36) We didn’t know that because we thought we were going to Japan. We get processed, we get on a train and there’s 13 cars in the train, the last one is not a sleeper, all the other 12 are sleepers, it takes off and it takes most of the day to get to Chicago, they let the last car off and the other 12 went to Seattle and I’m in the last car. It’s 3:00 Friday afternoon and I’m going through processing and this guy is looking at my stuff and he said, ―Sir, you can get out.‖ I said, ―Get out?‖ He said, ―Ya, you got all these points.‖ I said, ―Let’s do it.‖ He said, ―Oh no, I can’t do it today.‖ I said, ―Why?‖ He said, ―Haven’t got enough time. I’ll give you a three week leave and you come back and we’ll process your discharge.‖ I stood there for a minute and I said, ―Sergeant, what would happen if I stayed over the week-end?‖ He said, ―We would discharge you on Monday.‖ I said, ―I’ll be here.‖ (01:33:28) I thought as long as I could get out I’d had enough. I stayed overnight and the following Monday after discharge, I got home. Interviewer: ―Had you been communicating with your family on a regular basis?‖ One sister in particular and my mother and my dad would write. When my dad would write, he wrote a good letter. I doubt that he wrote more than six the whole time, but usually it was a long letter and then a few friends, guys that I knew that were in various parts of the world and you know every now and then you would get one that they had censored. Interviewer: ―Did you get the black mark or did you get the cut out?‖ Both types. But that’s what you had to do. I have a friend, who his first duty got overseas and they said, ―You’re going to censor these letters.‖ And he said, ―I’ve never done that.‖ He is still living. He is in Naples and he said, ―I have never done that.‖ And the guy said, ―Oh, you know what it’s all about.‖ This is December--November of 1944, and he said, ―I had to sit there and decide--.‖ By that time they had relaxed the rules, but they still had that idea. (01:34:44) Interviewer: ―So, when you left Chicago after being discharges, did V-J day happen anytime during that period?‖ I’m still in uniform and this is funny, I had an aunt and she was a nun, a Carmelite nun in Detroit and her duty in life, she had done this since she was in her 20’s, she was cloistered, whish means all they did was pray, and she was my godmother also, and so I decided to go down and visit her and thank her for her prayers etc., so I stayed over in 25 �Detroit and the next day was V-J Day. That’s where you want to be on V-J Day. I never got so many kisses by so many different women in all my life. I don’t know if I could go through that again or not. I have no complaints. (01:35:34) You walked down Woodward Avenue and they would grab you and hug you and you see the good thing was, I had my uniform on. They didn’t know that I was technically home for final discharge. I had a few more days to go, but it was a good place to be at the right time. Interviewer: ―The country celebrated, it was an outpouring of joy like you had not seen before?‖ Oh, I tell ya, it went on for a couple of days you know, but it was an outpouring of joy, I don’t know if anybody got any sleep that night, all I can remember in Detroit was the celebration and things being thrown out of windows. That was one of the things that worried me. I think somebody was drunk up there, but I had a wastepaper basket half full of water that landed two feet from me and I thought, ―Holy cats, what are we trying to do?‖ People do stupid things under those circumstances, but it was wonderful, the newspapers, I don’t know if I have any newspapers from that day, I should have. I probably do, I got a lot of things I haven’t got time to go through. When I get old, I’ll go through those. (01:36:39) Interviewer: ―For our final questions, there are actually two of them, One is and with as much detail as you can, and keep in mind that this is for your grand children who never met your parents, I would imagine. What was the experience, and you can be as emotional as you want, what was the experience of coming home safe, uninjured, in your uniform. You have done your duty for your country?‖ The grand children met my mother. You have a feeling of gratitude that you survived, you inquire again about the guys that didn’t make it, the guys who are missing in action. It is so good and you take off your uniform and you put on civilian clothes, you take the car if you have one, I didn’t, but my dad had one, or you take the pick-up and you go and visit your friends and you stop at the local tavern and you talk to anybody. (01:37:50) Everybody wants to talk to you. As I say, I didn’t drink in those days, I learned that later on and fortunately it never took over, but visiting friends. I got out in August and I could have gone to college that fall, but I thought, ―Hey, I got to have a little time.‖ I hitch hiked to Detroit and talked to the University of Detroit, I went over to Michigan State College, I hitch hiked over there and talked to the people over there and then I thought, ―Well, I’ll wait until next semester.‖ Then my dad wanted me to go deer hunting with him up north and I had never done that, I went small game hunting and worked on the farm and just tried to get back and relax and kind of put it out of your mind, but I remember the Blue Star Mothers and the Gold Star Mothers with the little—it was almost this size, a little bit smaller than that and the gold stars meant they had lost a son in service and the blue star was for having a son in service. (01:38:48) They put those in the windows and some people had 2,3 or 4 of those in the window. My mother was very active in the Blue Star Mothers and they were a fraternity you might say, they would meet and they would tell stories and my I wrote a letter one time about that experience of us bailing out and that got in the paper. I didn’t plan that or I would have written it a little bit better I guess. (01:39:15) 26 �Interviewer: ―Let me just get one more question in. Looking back on the experience you had in the military and I don’t mean just combat, I mean the whole experience of being in the military, how did that effect the person that you are today? How did it influence the person you are today?‖ Fortunately I came from a disciplined family, but I remember a lot of guys didn’t, but I think we had more discipline in our schools, I know we did in those days, and the guys that couldn’t knuckle under, they did things to you that you wouldn’t want done. I mean they made you drill when you didn’t want to drill. You might be dead tired and you still had to do thing. You had to do push-ups etc. A few guys rebelled, but they got weeded out. It got to a point where, now your getting near being an officer and a pilot and if they didn’t think you were good leadership material or a good pilot, they would call you a flight officer and that means that you could fly the plane, but you wouldn’t be the commander. Well, this one guy, a friend of mine was a flight officer and I thought, ―Gee, I like him etc.‖ We were flying B-24’s and he and I went up one day with just the crew chief and we’re practice flying and we went out and we did instrument flying etc. and we came back and there was a heavy cross wind and were going 90 degrees due east on this runway with this heavy crosswind and he’s flying. We got down on the ground, were in a crab like this, you had to in order to stay even and he gets within 40 feet of the ground and he panics. He gives it full throttle and he said, ―I can’t land this darn thing.‖ I said, ―Take it up, I’ll land it.‖ We circled around, came in on the same runway, got within a few feet, kicked the rudder real hard and the plane swung around and down we went. I thought afterwards, ―Now here’s a guy who panicked when the chips were down, when he had to make a decision.‖ Then I knew why he was not the commander, a nice guy, but you had to learn to make decisions and you had to do a lot of this stuff in advance and that is why they taught you—you didn’t ever practice parachuting, but you got out forward, the way the plane is going, so you get away from the plane. (01:41:35) You don’t pull your ripcord until you count ten and things like that and a lot of rules. It taught me a lot. I teach kids these days that if you’re going down a two lane highway and there’s a guy coming for you and all of a sudden there’s a guy in your lane, your job is to get off before he does and you hit him, you get to that shoulder. I’ve had to do that twice and the funny part of it was that it was within a mile, but it was going in different directions over near Ionia. One time the guy was drunk and the other time it was a farmer and I don’t know what he was doing, but he was passing and it was all fog. My point is it taught me to plan my life a little better, be prepared; I would like to think that a lot of the good things that have happened to me is because of that discipline. You have to—life is getting a hold of yourself, life is attitude. This is a B-24, I don’t care what kind of plane it is-- this would the kind that I flew. Here’s a plane it’s got four propellers and it’s got power. It’s loaded with gas and if I had the right attitude that plane is going to go up, but if I have the wrong attitude, it’s going to go down. The same is true of life. If we have a bad attitude, if we always think it’s going to go wrong, you know, I have had people—I know a lady, a nice lady and if you have a cold, she has a cold, if somebody’s got the flue, she is sure she has the flue. They always think about the worst. I was fortunately taught the other way. You think about the best. (01:43:09) I’ll just go into a quickie, because all of a sudden I see this thing over here. This story was written by the fourteen year old boy who I saved my life and so I brought him over—he was now sixty and his wife is now sixty, they are both teachers, his daughter thirty was a teacher, his son 27 �twenty eight went to work for Avis. I brought him over here in 1990 as my guests, took them all around Michigan, three weeks, Niagara Falls, Toronto, New York, Washington D.C. The boy and his sister could speak English fairly well. Two years later the Bosnian War breaks out and Vinko writes to me and says, ―Don, my son was in the army, they want him to go back in, I want you to bring him to the United States, I don’t want him to go back and get killed.‖ I thought, ―Ok I’ll bring him over here.‖ But then I talked to my friend Vahid, from Detroit, a very bright guy who has been over here since 1986 and an American citizen now and he said, ―Don, don’t do it.‖ I said, ―Why?‖ and he said, ― He doesn’t have an education and he is going to be flipping homburgs and be a very unhappy man.‖ I said, ―That makes sense.‖ (01:44:22) All of a sudden the thought struck me, and I swear to god it came from him and I appreciate that, now this kid is thirty years old, single, handsome, he could dive forty feet to spear a fish without a lung or anything, he can speak English, he has been to the United States, lets get him a job in the U.S. Embassy in Zagreb and Paul Henry was our congressman at the time and Paul helped me do that. He want in as a guard and within two years he is in charge of the motor pool and within five years he is in charge of not only the motor pool, but also the distribution of relief supplies. I talked to him in November and he is still doing that. (01:44:58) This has been fourteen years. Interviewer: “I think that is a great place to stop. I really appreciate this Don, I have been looking forward to this for a long time and I hope it wasn’t too much of an ordeal.‖ It was an ordeal for you. (01:45:15) 28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JandernoaD Title A name given to the resource Jandernoa, Donald (Interview transcript and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jandernoa, Donald Description An account of the resource Donald Jandernoa served in the Army Air Corps from 1943 to 1945. He trained as a B-24 pilot and flew missions for the 15th Air Force, based in Italy, in the later stages of the war. He describes the training process and his combat experiences in detail, including a mission on which he and his crew had to bail out along the Yugoslav coast and were rescued by local villagers. He also discusses the role of the Tuskegee airmen in protecting his unit. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-03-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5ceb5544737274ad0354aed8dbe3e81.mp3 938739238408867d8ab6517f3b439088 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5da0b5d332168fcb4707391a86c00ca.pdf 3acf8258def39fae93587d76f6897712 PDF Text Text Jane Osman- Interview by Margaret Mason July 21, 2018 0:02 JO: Push it. Oh. Now it’s, it should be working now 0:03 MM: All right. 0:04 JO: Because it the solid thing 0:05 MM: Ok. So 0:07 JO: So then we should probably start with that right over there 0:08 MM: Yeah. All right. Thank you for coming, Jane 0:10 JO: You are welcome. Very welcome 0:13 MM: You just finished doing an interview yourself, so I appreciate that. Um, so. I should, your name is Jane 0:18 JO: Jane Osman 0:20 MM: Jane Osman. Thank you. O-S- 0:26 JO: M-A-N 0:27 MM: M-A-N Thank you. All right. And I’m Margaret Mason. 0:30 JO: Mmhm. Margaret 0:31 MM: Thank you. Um, and today is July 21, 2018. And we’re collecting these stories as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported by a grant by the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for coming. I appreciate it very much. So, do, let me, tell me where you grew up? 0:52 JO: Well, actually I was born in, uh Grayling. I spent my very early years in Kalkaska, MI, because my father was superintendent there. Then we moved to Utica. That’s where I began my schooling. Which was over near Detroit. And we were there until second grade. And then in second grade we move to Fennville, and my father was the superintendent there. And I graduated with Fennville High School, and that’s where I came into contact with Saugatuck. And I was always a cheerleader there. Um, Fennville was much larger than Saugatuck. I would say 5 times or larger as far as the school, the graduating class. Everything like this. We had football, we had basketball. We had baseball. Um. We had a tennis court, well, we didn’t have a tennis team or anything, but we had no girls’ sports. No girls’ PE or anything, and it wasn’t until I went to college that “Gee. I have to take PE?” I didn’t even know what PE was �1:56 MM: Right. Wow. 1:57 JO: Physical Education. When we were at Fennville, we were the Fennville Blackhawks, and we were always the rivals of Saugatuck and the Saugatuck Indians. And I can remember when, and Cynthia just told me a short time ago that it was in the late 50’s I guess, um, er, er no. I guess it was the early 50’s that the high school in Saugatuck burned. And I remember my dad getting a phone call because, oh what was his first name? Mr. Waugh. Dr. Waugh. Um, W-A-UG-H. Was the superintendent here, and he called my dad, and the high school was burning. And I know that they had to go to different churches and then different buildings to have classes until they kind of remodeled it in the gym and put classrooms in there. But that was when it burned. But we were always the biggest rivals. So Fennville played Saugatuck, and Saugatuck only had a basketball team. 2:52 MM: Oh my gosh. 2:55 JO: They didn’t have football. They didn’t have any of the others. And Cynthia told me that her graduating class, I think she said they were 10. 3:00 MM: Oh my goodness. 3:01 JO: And 3:01 MM: How big was your graduating class 3:03 JO: Ah. In our graduating class I think we probably had maybe 55 3:07 MM: yeah 3:08 JO: but that’s still pretty small 3:08 MM: Considerably bigger. Yeah but, but much bigger than Saugatuck for sure. 3:10 JO: But much bigger than Saugatuck. But, uh, it was always fun to come over and the Fennville girls would always, whether it was good or bad, we liked to date the Saugatuck boys because it was exciting because this was kind of like, um, the bad place over here [laugh] 3:27 MM: Oh that’s funny. Be, be with the bad boys 3:32 JO: Yes. That’s right. We called the basketball team the Nicotine 5 3:35 MM: oh! [laugh] 3:36 JO: Isn’t that terrible? 3:37 MM: No. It’s probably true �3:28 JO: And Cynthia’s cousin Frank Lamb, Frank Lovejoy, Will Hedgeland, um, Bob Frankenridge, Ralph Burcoss, um, I think Rex Francis for a while and, well, he was, I think he had an altercation or something over here and then he went to school in Fennville. But anyway, we always were rivals. It was always very, very exciting to come to a game. I was always a cheerleader for Fennville, and, um, I can remember some of the cheerleaders from Saugatuck too. Um. Kerry Wicks, I think was one, um, oh my word. The names escape me right now. But anyway, what I did over here was I put myself through Hope College working for Joe and Cathy Hetacheck. 4:25 MM: What did Joe and Cathy Hetacheck do? 4:27 JO: Well, Joe and Cathy had, when I was first working there, the Frost Mug. And the Frost Mug was where the old Tara (?) was, and then there, I guess it was Center Street? Is that the one that goes right through? The Old School House 4:37 MM: Yeah. Uh huh. Uh huh. Center Street. Yeah. And then Terra was right over here 4:41 JO: Over here. Behind it. And that was there. Then you cross Center Street, and there was this bar, whatever. I never went in it 4:50 MM: Because you were a young innocent young girl 4:51 JO: Oh, yes, and I would never be around to go in that. But I was not the kind who “Oh gee, if it’s bad I’m going to do it” 4:55 MM: Yeah. Right. 4:59 JO: It was called the Woodshed. And then, um, there was the Frost, there, there was the, I think they called it the Dairy Queen, or the Tasty Freeze. It was the Tasty Freeze. And then Joe and Cathy had a square building that was probably maybe, maybe 30X30 or maybe 20X20 5:15 MM: Oh. Small. 5:17 JO: And it, very small, and it had shelves around the outside. And it was called the Frost Mug. And they called it the Frost Mug because we had the Root Beer Mugs, and we kept them in, we put them in chest freezers 5:30 MM: Sure 5:31 JO: And they were all frosty 5:31 MM: They were frosty, yeah. 5:35 JO: And, my first year that I worked there, I had just graduated from High School, and so I worked at the fruit canners in the morning from 7 o clock until 5 o clock I guess. Or maybe it was 7 to 3. And picked rotten cherries off the belt �5:50 MM: Oh gosh 5:51 JO: And that was in Fennville. And I don’t know how much I got paid per hour, but that was just for cherry season. And cherry season lasted only for maybe, oh, middle of June to end of July. But before that summer was over, so it probably had to have been about the first part of, or the end of June, I got a job with Joe and Cathy, and 6:10 MM: How did you get that job? How did you find that job? 6:13 JO: Probably somebody told me 6:14 MM: Uh huh. 6:15 JO: That they were hiring. They wanted waitresses. And this was not the kind of waitress where you put out silverware or anything like this. It was, I was a car hop. And I can remember that we all wore dresses. You didn’t wear pants. And I would wear, uh, I made, what would you call them, like pantaloons? 6:34 MM: Yeah sure. 6:35 JO: So that when you bend over, because you had to bend over to get in the freezer, nobody could see your underwear, you would wear these. But 10 cents, oh we were paid 50 cents an hour if you worked outside, but it was a dollar an hour that you made if you worked inside 6:52 MM: Oo 6:53 JO: So that was a lot of money 6:54 MM: Yeah. Yeah. Actually that, that really was 6:55 JO: Well it was back, probably about 1959 when I started. I worked there for four years, until 1963. And the first year I worked there it was this small building called the Frost Mug. And it was the busiest, I could only work from 5 until 3 in the morning because I had this other job uh picking rotten cherries off 7:16 MM: the cherries 7:17 JO: So I would come, and I would serve at 5 o clock. And then we would have the supper hour. Then it would get really, really slow until about 9 or 10. And then we would get a little bit of a rush before 11. And then we would stand around, and we would tell jokes, and Joe would tell and they were probably very dirty jokes. Um, the only one I can remember right now is “Get off the table, Myrtle. This here quarter is, is for beer.” 7:42 MM: [laugh] �7:43 JO: isn’t that terrible? And we would all stand around and we’d laugh. So it was dumb, because we had this dull time from about 11 until 1, and then the bars close at 2. And then we would just have a rush of people coming after the bars closed because they were going to sober up before they went home. We were open until 3 o clock in the morning. So we just put out lots and lots of pots of coffee. And we would sell all kinds of coffee. And coffee was 10 cents 8:13 MM: wow. Not root beer though, at that time of day, typically 8:15 JO: And, oh well, they didn’t need the root beer to sober up 8:20 MM: Yeah. Right. I’m sure. I guess not. 8:22 JO: But I just remember that we would, uh, put the tray on the, the car window. They’d have to roll it up, so that there was this ledge that you could put it on. And coffee was 10 cents, so they would often throw out their whole pocket full of change, and that’s when you made your money and your tips 8:38 MM: Right. Sure. 8:40 JO: And I’m sure sometimes I would make as many as, oh $20 a night. And that was really, really big bucks 8:45 MM: Yeah sure 8:46 JO: I cannot believe that I was able to put myself through Hope College for four years doing that 8:51 MM: That is really incredible. And you paid your tuition and 8:56 JO: Yup. Yup. And board 8:59 MM: Wow 9:00 JO: and 9:01 MM: Do, working, so you work there 12 months of the year, or just in the summer? 9:02 JO: Nope, because it was only open 9:04 MM: Ok. Yeah 9:04 JO: It was only open in summer. And so he probably opened a little bit before Memorial Day, and then he would close, you know, I can’t really remember, but I can remember working after Labor Day, and then coming home and working the weekends, uh, afterwards. Um, but he would close during the winter time. And Joe and Cathy lived on Pleasant Street. So you’d go up the hill, and the house is still there. And Joe and winter clothes and summer clothes. Because in �the summer time he’d work so hard that he would lose all this weight in, and then in winter time, when I would see him, when I would come back in May, I’d say “Oh my word! It’s like Santa Clause is here” 9:44 MM: That’s funny. And then he would lose it all again. 9:48 JO: All again in the summer. Yeah 9:49 MM: Summer. Well that’s an impressive story, that you could put yourself through college. Room and board and books and everything. 9:56 JO: But that was 50 years ago, you’ve got to remember 9:58 MM: I know, but I’m still, that’s still very, very impressive. That’s incredible 10:00 JO: And of course you would get uh loans. And because I was a teacher, then we got, what were they called? Some kind of a loan. And you only had to pay half of it back 10:08 MM: Yes. Because you were going to teach yeah 10:12 JO: You were going to teach. Yeah. I can’t remember what it was called right now. I don’t remember. But Joe and Cathy had no children, but they were just really, really a nice, nice couple 10:20 MM: Did they seem like kind of aunt and uncle like to you or parents or? 10:23 JO: Oh they were, they were parents to us, because uh, when we would have the Venetian nights. Or not Venetian night. It was called, um, oh, uh, Jazz Festivals. And the Jazz Festivals I think that’s what was last year at the Pump House event there this year, and I think it’s kind of a continuation of that. They were out at, they were supposedly out at the race track out here. South of town. But this is where you would have all these kids coming, college kids, I can remember it was always in July during they called it Jazz Festival Week. It was kind of like Venetian Festival Week. And it would be so crowded that we, that, uh, they closed off the whole town. And I can remember that Joe would have us stay with him at their house. And he had permission for us. And we’d all just pile in two cars, and then drive to his house and sleep at his house because we had to be at work here at 11 o clock the next morning. 11:22 MM: Right 11:23 JO: and so we would sleep there. Cathy was the organist at St. Peter’s 11:25 MM: Oh gosh. Yeah. 11:29 JO: Very talented. Just a really, really neat couple �11:34 MM: What a wonderful memory to have, to have the comradery of the people you worked with. Is there anybody in particular who you worked with that you can think of 11:42 JO: I remember I worked with Franny Benkin. And there was a large Benkin family in Saugatuck. I worked with Kay Schretigas (?). And she was older than I, and she was teaching already when I was in school, so therefore, after school started, Joe would let me go early because I was still in school 12:02 MM: Yeah 12:03 JO: And Kay was out of school, so she was smart. She didn’t have to do any homework or think. And that was probably very unfair. And I worked with Kerry Wicks. And I think her father was Frank Wicks of the Wickwood Inn 12:11 MM: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. 12:12 JO: And Jerry Muehlenbeck. Her older sister Joy is still in, in uh Saugatuck. Jerry, um, lives around here someplace. I think she lives around the Fennville area. And Joy still sells popcorn and such. She’s a popcorn lady. 12:28 MM: Yes. Right Sure. 12:29 JO: And I, so those are four that I do remember working with. And I can remember on the menu it was, uh a hamburger was 35 cents. And a cheeseburger was 40 cents. You paid you paid five more cents for that piece of cheese 12:42 MM: [laugh] for the cheese 12:44 JO: Canadian Bacon was 55 cents. A hot dog was a quarter. I remember for Mother’s Day; it was always kind of embarrassing because we would always get lots. So we had to open early in May then for Mother’s Day 12:55 MM: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. 12:57 JO: For Mother’s Day we would order three times as many hot dogs because that’s what everybody, when they, the father would bring the mother and all the kids in for Mother’s Day 13:05 MM: Oh. And all the kids for a hot, yeah 13:05 JO: So she didn’t have to cook. Hot dog 13:08 MM: She, the kids would get a hotdog. 13:12 JO: Root beer was a dime. Coffee was a dime. Doughnuts were a dime. Um, we had two dinners. We had a shrimp dinner and a chicken dinner. And they were a dollar and a quarter. And �it was a shrimp dinner, uh, I think there were 9 pieces of shrimp, salad, and then French fries. How much were French fries? Maybe, were French fries were, 20 cents? I don’t really remember 13:30 MM: But if you got the dinner the French fries came 13:33 JO: Fries go with it. Yeah. But we also sold fries separately. And you could get whatever you wanted on your hamburger. And I know sometimes we would grill and then we, then we would have somebody else standing on the counter, but this after, the first year I worked there it was called the Frost Mug. And then the next year, he had, I think it was the next year he had built what he called the Red Wood. It had red sides, redwood sides on it. Much larger. And then he had this big cement out in front with parking on both sides. And it was that way. And parking in the back too. It also had tables inside. I think there were about maybe 6 tables inside. It was much, it was probably four times bigger than it was before. But the prices were still the same. Joe and Cathy worked there all day long. Every single day we were open, 7 days a week. It was amazing 14:28 MM: And so and you, when you were able to work inside you got more money. 14:30 JO: Right. 14:35 MM: And, but there were only 6 tables inside? Or something like that? 14:37 JO: When, when you worked inside that meant you, you were the garbarger, and you put all the stuff on the hamburgers or 14:38 MM: oh. Right. Yeah. Right 14:42 JO: Whatever. Or you washed dishes and you ended up with 14:45 MM: chapped 14:46 JO: Uh, hands that looked like all wrinkles. Or you worked down in the basement, and, oh now I remember two others who worked with us. Two, Anne Hutchinson and Sharon Fleming. And Sharon Fleming would work downstairs because she had contacts. Because when you peel the onions, otherwise we would all be crying 15:00 MM: Everyone’s weeping. Yeah. 15:03 JO: Just because she had contacts she didn’t cry and 15:07 MM: Contacts were new in those days 15:09 JO: Oh they were new. That’s right. And we also had to peel potatoes. So we had great big, this is probably a terrible thing to say, but this great big pile of potato peelings down in the basement. And every night we’d have to scoop them and put them in garbage bags. Because if you didn’t do it, you got maggots. �15:24 MM: Oh yeah. 15:24 JO: It was terrible. And we would peel all the potatoes you had to be careful because you didn’t want to take your thumbnail off. And then when you put these slippery potatoes in water and carry them up in buckets. And we had this potato thing. And you put it in, and you pulled the thing down and made them all. Then so we made our own potatoes. 15:40 MM: Oh you, the lever pulled them to turn them into French fries’ size 15:42 JO: You pulled on this lever and they went into this container. And then you had all your French fries. And if you worked inside you could also work the fryers. I never liked to do that because you always burned your toes because when you pulled the, the baskets out of the hot grease, then it would drip before you got it over onto the counter to put it into the little containers. And so the tops of your tennis shoes were always all stained 16:10 MM: Covered. Oh really? 16:12 JO: Burn. Burned up too. It was, it was interesting. Um, the best kind of a, we never sold this, but we would drink it ourselves because we could have one thing to eat and one thing to drink and it was free. So because we worked there the seven 16:20 MM: Yeah. Should be. Yes right 16:27 JO: You would take, we sold chocolate milk too. So I don’t know if that was a dime. So you take a frost mug and you would fill it half full with chocolate milk and put root beer in the top 16:37 MM: Oo 16:38 JO: And was that ever good. It was great 16:40 MM: oh. Like a root beer float 16:41 JO: float. Yes. Except there was no ice cream 16:42 MM: Except it was milk and wow 16:44 JO: And in the front of it, facing 31, I guess the blue star high way, we had 1, 2, we had 4 big chest freezers full of layers of frost mugs of the, um, of the glasses 16:58 MM: Right to serve the root beer 17:02 JO: To serve it �17:03 MM: Mm hm, so he, so they changed the name of the place and expanded it in between one season and another as far as you remember 17:08 JO: They must have just, they must have done it very, very quickly. I don’t I remember working first when it was the frost mug 17:17 MM: Right 17:18 JO: And then it was called the Red Wood 17:19 MM: Right, but it was bigger and had more inside seating 17:23 JO: That’s right were, um I think it’s called the Tasty Freeze I think is now called Way Point. Because it’s still, it’s still the same building 17:30 MM: Yeah, sure. I know that. Yeah 17:34 JO: And there’s a building behind it, and that, that was, uh, Red Wood 17:37 MM: I see 17:37 JO: And I think it’s kind of reddish wood, or is it red brick? 17:40 MM: My, yeah. So Way Point is sort of back and it’s the M&M’s on the left 17:48 JO: On the left hand side 17:51 MM: M&M’s or what is now called the Blue Star Cafe is the one right facing, uh, 31. And then Way Point is kind of behind it, I think 18:01 JO: Ok. Way Point. Ok. See, I, and they have really good ice cream sodas in there now. But that’s where the Tasty Freeze was because it was in the front, so if you had 31 here, then the Tasty Freeze was here, Terra was over there, uh, what did I say it was called? The Wood Shed was over here, uh, 18:14 MM: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. The Red Barn. The Red Wood 18:22 JO: Joe’s Red Wood was right over here, or the Frost Mug was right over here and the, um, kind of like um, uh, what would you call it. A [pause] you can rent rooms. Like 18:37 MM: Oh, like a little Bed and Breakfast or motel ish thing. Yeah 18:39 JO: It’s a little motel thing. It’s over farther south on that same side 18:42 MM: And now Douglas elementary school is sort of back there, back �18:47 JO: But it’s much farther back behind, but it’s much further back on 18:49 MM: Correct 18:51 JO: Center Street. So that was not there then. At all. We just had a parking lot behind. Hm. That’s interesting. I can’t remember. It must have been just, I think it was only one year that I worked there that it was the Frost Mug. It was that small square building 19:10 MM: And, and then it grew and the number of people you worked with increased? 19:13 JO: Oh yes. It grew, yeah. But I usually worked the 5-3 shift 19:20 MM: That is a long day! My goodness. If you’re getting up in the morning to do the cherries 19:23 JO: Oh I, so I only did that one year. Much more profitable to be at the Red Wood working with Joe and Cathy but go ahead 19:26 MM: Oh, yeah. Sure. Right. So when you graduated from Hope College did you continue to work there in the summer? 19:38 JO: I think I worked there just one summer before I started teaching. And then after that, of course, I had to go to school in summer sometimes to keep up my certification. 19:45 MM: Right. 19:47 JO: So I, I think I only worked there from 59 to about 63. I think that’s it 19:52 MM: Yeah 19:53 JO: But it, but those were good experiences. But another thing you had to do was clean, well, you had to take, well, clean off all the trays and then, but you also had to clean the latrines, and there was a guys’ and a girls’. And this was in the new building. It was awful and we hated to do that. But that was one of our jobs 20:10 MM: ooh. Yeah. Right. 20:13 JO: Clean the latrine [groan] 20:15 MM: And washing the dishes. No dishwasher? 20:17 JO: [laugh] No. no really. No 20:20 MM: Hmm. Dishwasher hands 20:22 JO: Well see the only thing we had to wash though �20:23 MM: The mugs 20:23 JO: Were the glasses. Everything else was paper 20:24 MM: Because it, paper. Ok. Gotcha 20:25 JO: And, uh, I imagine there were plastic forks or something to eat your chicken 20:30 MM: The, go back to the chicken dinner and the shrimp dinner. What, what was included? 20:34 JO: Oh. It was, a, probably like a, uh, school tray like what you would use to go through the cafeteria. 20:40 MM: Right. 20:41 JO: And, uh, they were both a dollar and a quarter. And it was probably a, uh, three pieces of chicken I guess. Like a small thigh, a leg, and uh, I don’t know. But anyway three pieces of chicken. They were 20:53 MM: Fried? 20:55 JO: yes. Fried. It was all deep fried. 20:58 MM: And who had to fry, you had to? 20:59 JO: No, Kathy was in charge of the fryers, and she did that usually. But sometimes, uh when she would have to do something else, or she would go play the organ for a funeral or something then we would have to do that. And we didn’t like to do it. But the, the fryers were all on the opposite side. So they were on the south side. On the north side was the grille. And actually Joe and two or three grilles there, and then a big long table. And that’s where we did all the garbaging took it all. And then we had another big table at this end. At that’s where you picked up your orders because you had to right everyting down. 21:28 MM: Right. 21:29 JO: And then you had to abbreviate it. And you could have whatever you wanted on your, on your hamburger or your cheeseburger or Canadian Bacon. But you had to write down if they wanted no onions or everything, or everything but, and there were all, 1, 2, 3, about 6 fryers there. With the, with the baskets just like you see if you look in the window at McDonald’s. 21:52 MM: Right. Sure. �21:53 JO: where they fry the stuff? And but we had a tossed salad. So she must have, I can remember chopping tomatoes. And she must have purchased lettuce and the chopped that all up. I know that Cathy often had bandages on her hands 22:07 MM: Oh dear. Chopping. Yeah. 22:08 JO: From her fingers. But she would also wear the plastic gloves 22:12 MM: Yeah. 22:13 JO: That are, but I’m sure we didn’t know at the time when we were. But that was back then too. 22:18 MM: Yeah. Right. Well. That was back then. You didn’t yeah. And people 22:20 JO: Did you wash your hands? Yeah. So we would 22:22 MM: were probably smoking in the restaurant and everything. 22:24 JO: I’m sure. Yes 22:26 MM: So, I’m sorry, you had, she, the fried chicken that Cathy made 22:30 JO: Mm hm. She did everything over on that side 22:30 MM: Ok. All by, from, from scratch 22:34 JO: Yep 22:34 MM: It wasn’t by, and then French Fries, and a salad. And then the shrimp was fried 22:40 JO: There was, I think there were 9 pieces of shrimp. And they were small shrimp. They had little tails on them. And they were in, so it was this, I don’t know, about 8 by 11, or something like. Kind of about the size of a piece of paper. And then divided into three sections. So you had your fries and salad. And then the larger section held your chicken or your shrimp 23:00 MM: yeah. And you would serve that to people, but you didn’t have to actually prepare it 23:05 JO: No 23:06 MM: But you did have to get the potatoes ready to be fried 23:08 JO: Right 23:10 MM: And take them out of the oil �23:11 JO: But, see, that was all done, you only did that if you were inside. The inside people did the potatoes, did the onions, did everything else. And those of us who were outside we just simply took orders. And would write it down on our little pad. You had to wear an apron. And we had to handle the money because handling the money was. You know, where did we put the money? 23:32 MM: Did you have little pockets in 23:34 JO: we must have had a till. Oh we had, I had several aprons with pockets in them, but we must have had a till where put the, I don’t remember that. We didn’t have a cash register. We must have had a till that we put the money in someplace. There was 23:47 MM: At the end of the day, or 23:48 JO: Oh. We had to turn it in all the time because we had to taking. I don’t know how 23:52 MM: More money and yeah. 23:55 JO: We did that. I bet somebody else, maybe Jerry would remember. I don’t remember how we did it. With the money 24:00 MM: And obviously they just trusted you so much to be honest with the money. You never felt they were questioning you 24:08 JO: No 24:09 MM: And would never have thought of helping yourself to the money. 24:10 JO: No. We just didn’t, you didn’t do those sort of things back then 24:16 MM: No. Because there was a whole system of trust. And I love, love the idea of back to, well, you stay at our house at this time when we’re going to have a lot of business. And we’ll look after you and what a wonderful memory. That is great 24:30 JO: It was, and Cathy died, oh I think maybe 3 years ago now. Maybe it was 2 years ago. And it was really, really sad. Uh, her funeral. Joe had died earlier. And I went to her funeral. It was at St. Peter’s. And I don’t know which funeral home did it. But they had somebody else’s picture 24:54 MM: [gasp] 24:54 JO: It was, I said “This is not Cathy!” They said, “No. We know. We mixed this up.” 25:00 MM: Oh my gosh 25:01 JO: It. That was really, really sad, and �25:04 MM: disturbing 25:04 JO: There were very few people there. There was nobody else that I knew from working there. But that was from 50 years ago too. But I would have thought that some people who still were around would have come. 25:15 MM: Because the people you mentioned, who you did work with, many of them are still here. 25:19 JO: I assume so. I haven’t seen Franny probably in 50 years. I don’t know if Kay Schretigas (?) is still living or not. Kerry I assume is still around. I don’t know. Jerry Muehlenbeck I do know is around. I see her every once in a while. I see her older sister Joy more often. But it was really sad because I couldn’t believe. I said “This is not Cathy.” And they said “no no.” And afterwards, um, I guess nieces, nephews, because they had no children, um, had everybody go down to the Mermaid. And they, you could order hamburgers, French Fries, or whatever you wanted reminisce of the days, and I thought that 25:58 MM: Oh. That’s sweet. Yes 25:58 JO: That was really, really special 26:01 MM: I think that is too. Do you know how long the, this place was in operation? 26:05 JO: Well, when I first started working there, they had been there at least 4 or 5 years I’m guessing. I’m sure if we would look in the records it would say. And I know it was there, oh probably into to the 70’s even. I’m guessing 26:20 MM: Yeah. Yeah. Good long 26:22 JO: I don’t, I really don’t know. When we, you move away, and then we were in the Detroit area, you don’t, don’t pay any attention 26:28 MM: Right. Right so. You then left, uh, Saugatuck. You left this area? What, you, when you graduated and you were teaching, did you not stay around in the area 26:39 JO: No, I was in the Detroit area then. I spent one year in Grand Haven, and then I was in the Detroit area until the late 60’s. Til 70’s. So 26:48 MM: Mmhm. And then did you come back here? 26:50 JO: And now we live in Holland. We have lived in Holland since 1960, actually. No. I told a lie. We came back in 68. Just before our son was born. So. And he was born in August, so we came in July of 68. �27:02 MM: Right. But really, Holland, in terms of being part of the Saugatuck Douglas community, you’re not that far away in terms of, of having your memories, of this wonderful community of this 27:14 JO: Mmhm. That’s why I like it so much. And that’s why I belong to the Saugatuck, um Historical Center now it’s called. Rather than Holland’s I belong to that. But this is so much more organized. Starts on time, um, has, is so much more vibrant, um, I hate to put down my own city, but this one has much more life. And that’s why I participate here. 27:32 MM: Well, that’s wonderful. We’re very lucky that you do. 27:38 JO: Well, I think I’m lucky because it’s available 27:40 MM: And I, we’re brand new in town. We’ve only lived here 27:42 JO: Oh, I didn’t know that 27:44 MM: Yeah, we just have lived here for a year. So, um, I love hearing these stories and these memories and trying to picture where things are, and your descriptions were so picture perfect. You know, I can picture you in your pantaloons and the lower apron with the change 27:58 JO: Ooh you wore a dress over it though 28:00 MM: Oh yeah. Of course. Of course. Yes 28:02 JO: And they looked like then they had ruffles on the bottom. Oh my word. And we would all wore tennis shoes. I remember somebody asking me “Did you wear, were you roller skating?” Oh Heavens no. That was cement. But I remember it was Thelma Naughton who had the, um, the Tasty Freeze. And she had a daughter, Corky. And I think they had a boat, boats or fishing or something. Maybe you’ve heard of that. I don’t know. 28:27 MM: No, No, I haven’t 28:29 JO: Naughton N-A-U-G-H-T-O-N. Thelma and Corky Naughton. And they had that Tasty Freeze. It was there for a long time 28:39 MM: Right. So all I can picture now is what locals call M&M’s and really is now called the Blue Star Cafe, but they still have that window where you can soft or hard ice cream or something 28:52 JO: Ok. Ok. That must be it. 28:54 MM: Like that. But there was a picture of a cone. You know if you look at the Blue Star Cafe it looks like it’s just a drive in for ice cream. But it’s really the little restaurant beside it that has, uh, Greek food �29:00 JO: Oh, Greek food, even 29:04 MM: Yeah. Hm. I mean, it’s kind of 29:07 JO: I’ll have to go there 29:08 MM: Oh it’s fun. It’s a nice little, again, local, family run place. Um, and then behind that is the Way Point. Where they have big breakfasts, uh, uh 29:20 JO: That must be the, I, I guess I should drive over there and just look because I’ll bet that’s the old Red Wood 29:26 MM: I bet. It seems from your description 29:26 JO: A big building. It’s, it’s 29:29 MM: Long. Yeah. 29:30 JO: Longer the way of the road. 29:32 MM: Yes. Exactly. 29:34 JO: And, cause we would, we had swinging doors you’d always boop your way because you had two trays. So strong we could, I could carry, it sounds like bragging, but I could carry a tray with 6 root beers in on hand 29:46 MM: oh, a, a mug 29:48 JO: Yes. 6 mugs in one hand, and then burgers and whatever else in the other. So you went out, and so there were no handles on it. You just booped your way out. And then you had an out and an in. And you never went out the in or you’d have a 30:01 MM: Right, and Jane, just because the recording won’t show this, you are not a large woman, so 30:05 JO: [laugh] 30:07 MM: So being able to do that must have been so 30:08 JO: Oh we were strong 30:10 MM: Yeah. Obviously 30:12 JO: But, but your thumb, you just hooked on the, and I remember now too. One thing I did not like, when the cars came out with automatic and they pushed the button. And so then �they’d accidentally hit it with their elbow. And everything would fall off. And all these things would smash. But Joe and Cathy never made us pay for 30:26 MM: Oh no. 30:27 JO: The smashed 30:30 MM: It wasn’t your fault 30:30 JO: Well no, but I mean otherwise it could have been “Oh sorry. You didn’t tell them” We never liked that because back then it was all the hand cranks 30:40 MM: yeah sure. 30:41 JO: And we’d say “now, don’t touch that.” But every once in a while somebody would accidentally hit it with an elbow. And then the thing would go down and dinner’s all smashed 30:48 MM: Oh now. Right. And then you’d have to start all over again and clean up the glass and. I wonder how many mugs they had in there. Your description is chest freezer 30:58 JO: Well. You know how big a chest freezer is? 31:00 MM: Yeah. Sure. 31:03 JO: And we had several layers in there. Oh we must have had, a thousand, or more. I mean 31:09 MM: I remember those mugs. Those glass, and then the handle on it, and then 31:12 JO: Glass handle. Big glass handle. It was all froze, and then it had the, a bottom on it that was kind of up on the inside. It was a false 31:20 MM: Yeah. Sure. Indented. Yeah. 31:22 JO: Bottom, but they were, that was a bigger mug then you get. And ten cents, but that’s what it was 31:28 MM: And what kind of root beer was it? What was the brand? Do you know? 31:32 JO: I have no idea because it came in, he would get a, that’s what you would do. You as the waitress or the car hop got your own drinks. Everything else would come out and then you got your drinks. Unless they were really busy, and then they got someone else doing drinks. Cause drinks were on the side. I don’t know what it was, but I know it came in big things. And we didn’t have to fill it because Joe, Joe would always do that. 31:54 MM: Right. Right �31:55 JO: He was strong enough, and he could get it up there. And I know you have to put the stuff in something else 31:57 MM: You have to put the syrup and the whatever 32:00 JO: And I couldn’t tell you what kind of chocolate milk we had either. I think we had, we must have had white milk too. Why would he just have had chocolate milk? 32:08 MM: Well because chocolate milk is a big treat and root beer is a big treat and 32:10 JO: Yeah I guess that’s it. But we didn’t have Coke. We didn’t have 7-up or any of that 32:15 MM: Right. No. No. No. No. It’s clearly, and you think of those mugs as root beer 32:20 JO: as a root beer mug 32:21 MM: when you think of them. Yeah 32:22 JO: Just like the root beer barrel that’s over there 32:24 MM: Sure. Yeah, and it, it wasn’t there at the time. It was there at the time? 32:28 JO: It was there. It was still 32:30 MM: It was still open and selling root beer also? 32:32 JO: It must have been 32:33 MM: Seems like 32:37 JO: I remember going there in high school. But see, that was over in Douglas 32:38 MM: yeah 32:39 JO: and that was a much smaller operation. I think they just did hotdogs and root beer. But I could be wrong too. I don’t know. 32:38 MM: so small you can’t imagine that it would 32:50 JO: and ours was much larger. I can remember that. Oh my word. Sometimes we were just really, really, really busy there. And all the trays would be piled up and you just couldn’t keep up. 32:58 MM: Right �32:59 JO: But that was good and time went fast, so 33:00 MM: yeah. Yeah. You’re right. You weren’t bored. And no time for jokes when it was really busy 33:03 JO: Well not always. It was usually the dead time from about mid night till quarter after one and then that was time for. Oh! That’s when Joe’d call “OK. Gather round. It’s time for the dirty 30.” 33:14 MM: [laugh] 33:15 JO: and I mean it was really stupid, but you 33:18 MM: but you loved it 33:21 JO: to have something to keep you entertained 33:23 MM: Were you tired? Do you remember thinking “Oh my gosh. I’d like to go home” or 33:27 JO: Oh probably. And at that time, um, I was staying north of Holland where my parents had had, well, it’s still in our family. It was my great-great-great grandfather’s cottage. And we lived out there. And so it was a good 35 40-minute drive for me to get there 33:45 MM: Yeah. 33:45 JO: And, so I’d get home probably 4:30 in the morning 33:50 MM: Oh my goodness 33:50 JO: See I didn’t start again until 5 o clock in the afternoon. So I would sleep probably until noon. Then go to the beach 33:55 MM: Yeah. Right. [laugh] 33:58 JO: And just go down our steps to the beach and then I was at work by 10 to 5 or so. 34:00 MM: Right. That’s a love, sounds like an idyllic life. 34:04 JO: It was, it was fun 34:05 MM: being a, being a teenager and early 20’s, um, that you had, and, uh, and I don’t mean to exaggerate when I call it meaningful, but it is meaningful when you’re serving people and you know, it’s not like you’re reading to the blind or something. But you are providing a service and people �34:22 JO: And we got to know people too. Some of them would come in all the time. We had a couple that would come in from Saugatuck. And we called them Salt and Norma. And sometimes Salt and Pepper. They would come in about 10 o clock at night, and we could never do this now. I mean it’d be illegal. They wanted their hamburgers, and these were big quarter pound hamburgers. Joe would make them himself. And they wanted them just on the grille, so they were raw really. Just, and with just onions. And that was it. And so it would be just an order for Salt, we’d say “S & P order” and they knew what it was 34:54 MM: when they, yeah. 34:57 JO: and they put them on and just 35:00 MM: barely warmed up 35:01 JO: barely warmed them up 35:03 MM: they’re eating raw meat basically yeah 35:03 JO: yeah 35:04 MM: Steak tartare only 35:05 JO: oh that would be! 35:07 MM: you wouldn’t. No. And, well nothing you’re talking about would be allowed now. You would have all had to be wearing gloves, you couldn’t handle the money and handle the food 35:10 JO: gloves. That’s right. food 35:16 MM: And they would never let kids do the stuff with the potatoes and the basement, and work the fryer and all that. Is interesting. And yet you thrived, and people had good food and they weren’t dropping dead of food poisoning. 35:30 JO: [laugh] not that we knew of anyway 35:33 MM: That you knew of, yeah. 35:35 JO: And Joe and Cathy were just such nice people. And hard workers. Oh 35:40 MM: and that sounds like it, it was their, uh, imprimatur (?), their, their symbol of, you know getting you all in and getting this place for regulars and. Did you have some regulars from the bar at when people came in at? 35:54 JO: Oh sure, and you just knew you’re just like, oh 3 coffee and, oh gee, I hope you get home on time �35:54 MM: At when people came in after drinking and you just knew like, oh. Yeah. Right 36:04 JO: And, in fact, I can still remember, and that’s why I’m a tee totaller to this this day. Because I would have friends come in and upchuck. It was just awful. I thought I don’t need that in my life 36:10 MM: Right. Why would anybody want to do that? 36:17 JO: And it was, it was an eye opener. But I’m sure we were extremely naive to everything else that was going on. And, do bars still close at 2 o clock now 36:27 MM: No idea. 36:28 JO: I don’t know either 36:29 MM: I don’t go to bars 36:30 JO: Maybe. I know in England everything is at 10 o clock or 11 the pubs close 36:32 MM: They call hours yeah. That’s right 36:34 JO: But I don’t know now. But that’s when we would get this influx 36:38 MM: Right. It might be earlier than that, but of course, you know. When you think about it the restaurants here in Douglas and Saugatuck mostly close, you know 11 at the most 36:48 JO: at the most 36:50 MM: they’re closed. So they’re not, and I don’t really know of an actual just place that’s just a bar. The places I know in the limited time we’ve lived here are all restaurants. And they have, they typically close at 10 or maybe 11 on weekend, weekend. But they’re certainly not just drinking establishments. But it was a wilder time too. You talked about the jazz festivals 37:14 JO: that’s right. Sure. And that’s when all those kids were there and all the riots 37:18 MM: yeah. Do you remember the violence, the motorcycles? 37:22 JO: I, I just heard about it. That’s all. Um, because we weren’t involved. We were outside of town. And I know that, I shouldn’t say I know, I heard that the problems were not out there with the jazz festival because they were just doing their thing there. But the problems were in town. And there are a lot of other people who can tell lots more about that. But I’ve heard stories about how they were come in, and they had their paddy wagons, and they’d take them off to Allegan or whatever because there’s not a jail here. 37:48 MM: right. Right, right. �37:50 JO: And I don’t know. I 37:53 MM: But they didn’t find their way up to where, they didn’t come to, to where you were working and get anything to eat. Because it was off the beaten path where you were 38:02 JO: It was. I assume so, because they were doing their 38:02 MM: from their perspective because 38:07 JO: And by 2 o clock in the morning they were all [laugh] 38:08 MM: Lying down in the dirt somewhere. Yeah. Wow. What wonderful memory. That is great 38:10 JO: It was fun. It was fun 38:15 MM: Well 38:16 JO: So we enjoyed it. And I did, I’ve given you what I can remember, most as far as my, my time working there. And I think just right here at is where we should do our 38:28 MM: Any, any advice for any young person listening to this tape? 38:33 JO: Oh. Do your thing 38:35 MM: [laugh] 38:36 JO: Do your thing. It’s, get as much of an experience as you possibly can. Um. Life is wonderful, and you meet so many people doing things that you never would think you could do 38:47 MM: Right 38:48 JO: And so what if, I learned that I didn’t want to spend the rest of my life being a waitress 38:54 MM: Right. Or to become an alcoholic. At least with that 38:57 JO: Uh, that’s for sure, for sure 39:00 MM: And with that, that the warmth that was offered to you and your fellow workers by this couple who were childless, but you were their children, and 39:08 JO: we were their children. That’s right. Joe and Cathy �39:10 MM: And you felt that you were Joe and Cathy’s children. I mean you felt obviously you loved your parents and your family, but this was uh, 39:18 JO: Actually spent much more time with them then you did with your own family 39:20 MM: Of course 39:20 JO: And I can remember Cathy’s birthday in the summer time. And so we pulled our money and there was a beautiful dress that she liked that was next door because, oh there was kind of a little shop in amongst these hotel rooms. And she’d seen this dress, so we bought this dress for her. And I don’t know where or when she could have ever worn it because she was always working. She always had this apron all full of grease, and she, uh, poor Cathy. But we bought the dress for here, and she was just absolutely thrilled. 39:50 MM: What a sweet thing that you did that. Because you loved her 39:52 JO: We loved her 39:54 MM: you totally loved her. And Joe 39:55 JO: yes 39:56 MM: And it’s nice, I think, as a, as a psychologist, which I am 39:59 JO: Oh, I didn’t know that. 40:02 MM: I am a retired, um, anyway, to have another set of parents. Because we love our own parents, but part of the job of growing up, as you know, teaching 40:10 JO: It’s a little tough 40:13 MM: is to, well, you need to have another perspective and you need to have other people who love you. Who love you for you are, not because you’re their child, but because they love who you are 40:25 JO: you are 40:26 MM: And that’s just a blessing. You are very, very lucky. It’s a very sweet story. Anything else I didn’t think to ask you or 40:35 JO: No. I think not. So 40:36 MM: I was, one teeny other thing. The ketchup and stuff. Did you put it on? Did you have little packets and, I mean were you able to just �40:42 JO: No, nothing was, we didn’t have packets at all. We had the big containers of ketchup and mustard and relish 40:45 MM: So if they asked for ketchup you’d put it all on 40:50 JO: Yeah. It was already on the hamburger on the, or on the, um, no. That’s right. We did have little packets. And we would put a thing of ketchup with the French Fries. That’s right. A little just like they do that, so they could dip 41:03 MM: oh so they could dip it in 41:04 JO: That’s right, I had forgotten, but that was over on the, with the French Fries 41:07 MM: So when you got the French Fry order you had to fill the little 41:10 JO: They already filled them. It was filled up to the top, and so we put it on their tray. That’s, oh I’m glad you asked that question because I’d forgotten that 41:18 MM: I’m just picturing the whole process. It just sound 41:20 JO: That’s right 41:22 MM: Those little, uh, cardboard boats that French Fries and those things would be in those 41:30 JO: Yeah. Same thing that they are served in today. And hamburgers wrapped up just as it is wrapped up today. 41:35 MM: Yup. Well that is a wonderful memory. And thank you so much 41:37 JO: Oh, thank you very much, Margaret. And I’m glad to meet you 41:37 MM: I’m really. I’m glad to meet you too. And we’ll see you here at the History Center 41:42 JO: Oh yes. Definitely. Come to Tuesday Talks, oops. I guess we 41:44 MM: I do recording ends 41:46 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-OsmanJ-20180721 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Osman, Jane Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-21 Title A name given to the resource Jane Osman (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Jane discusses working as a waitress in the Saugatuck Douglas area at the Frosted Mug and, later, the Red Wood. She discusses her relationship with the restaurants' owners and the atmosphere of working as a server at that time Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mason, Margaret (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Waitresses Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db8c556ec34f40d5fdd858402b00bc2a.mp3 823b012ab485d3ffa05d112e3595a836 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac41182e39d0662fa48c3ecb0a6e95c7.pdf 5d53b77f656dc27c6abbc7d4c8d66c7f PDF Text Text Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 1 Katelyn Bosch: This is Katelyn Bosch and I'm here today with Jane Underwood at the Saugatuck Douglas History Center in Douglas Michigan on the 8th of October 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I am interested to learn more about your family experiences in the summer at Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it. Jane Underwood: Okay. Jane Underwood J A N E U N D E R W O O D KB: Alright, so Jane, when and how did your family first come to Saugatuck Douglas? JU: Well, my father’s family would spend the summer. There were two hotels up in Macatawa on either side of the channel and my grandparents and my father and his sister and older brother would spend the summer up there. My grandmother loved the idea of the hotel, she could play bridge with her friends in the afternoon. They had all their meals there and one afternoon according to family lore my grandfather announced that he had bought property in Saugatuck and they were going to build a tent there. Well my grandmother, Mae [inaudible] Underwood was not very happy about that. Saugatuck was considered very bohemian with all those artists. [KB laughs] JU: I think my grandmother was a bit of a snob. [KB laughs] JU: But, as it turned out. My grandfather pushed ahead and they started out in what was called a tent. It had a wooden floor and about three feet was wood and then they had canvas and but they had a real roof. Eventually, it became my large playhouse. As the years went on they built a cottage and seemingly every years, they added a room onto it, and as my father told me my grandfather wanted some peace and quiet, so he’d add another bedroom or two, for guests, and that was the family cottage until 1960 when unfortunately it burned out after the building was burned down. But, in the meantime the family summered in there, and enjoyed it. My grandfather used to row my grandmother down the river to the big pavilion where they would dance. It was quite a place. That’s the building that burned down that caused my cottage, family cottage to burn down. KB: So, your cottage burned during the same fire as the pavilion? JU: Yes. KB: Oh, okay. JU: The embers went across the river. There was a window switch and uh, my family cottage was the other building to burn but there were numerous fires in the woods. KB: Oh, okay. JU: But, the family enjoyed the cottage. My grandparents died and my father bought his sister out of her share so it became my family’s college and we always came up the end of, well the last week of April to open up the cottage. And we were there until, uh I would go back to school, and I was starting school and we’d close the cottage up, usually Columbus Day weekend which would be today. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 2 KB: Oh, yeah! JU: Yes, so, because the cottage really wasn't winterized. KB: Oh, yeah. At this time of year, you don't want to go much past this time of the year, in a cottage that’s not winterized. JU: We had a furnace, but it wasn’t insulated or anything. But um, growing up, spending the summers in Saugatuck, it was just a magical time, basically. There were all kinds of things for children to do. Um, as I got older I would start taking dance lessons from the Gallis’, ballet and tap. Art classes from Cora Bliss Taylor usually uh, Saturday and Wednesday for art classes and I’ve often said that Cora Bliss Taylor, all teachers and professors I had through way past post graduate work, she was probably the best teacher I ever had. She could take a group of oh, kind of let’s say rambunctious children, we weren’t unruly, well there might have been one or two. But she could settle us down, and we would produce art work. I, I will never be exhibiting at the Art Institute but it certainly made me appreciative of artwork and in my travels I never miss an art museum. [00:05:02] KB: Absolutely, yeah. JU: All over the world. But, um, there's [pause] ceramics lessons from Jean Goldsmith, um, I think I really did know how to swim but I did take swimming lessons over at Oval Beach. KB: Oh, wow. JU: And uh, there was all a old man as a lifeguard and there was an old wooden row boat and he took us, he dropped us in the water. You know what? Everyone started swimming, of course they wouldn't do that today. KB: Yeah! No! JU: I mean thinking about it, it’s just kind of like, oh my gosh. [KB laughs] JU: You know the liability and that. KB: Right. JU: But, those were different days and usually the, all the classes were in the morning and in the afternoon we’d go over to the beach and I'm paying the price now with skin cancers. Uh, 73 over at Oval Beach, but I still go over there and then I started sailing. We had an outboard boat which I learned how to run even though I wasn't supposed to take it out. But, I’d get my friends and we didn’t always have life preservers but we had fun on the water, and then my parents bought me the sailboat and I started sailing at the Saugatuck Yacht Club, and I’m still sailing there. KB: So you got some good use out of all the resources in Saugatuck. JU: Oh! It’s a, Saugatuck, its, for children in my day and I think it's still true today. It was just so many things to do. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 3 KB: Mhm. JU: And one thing that is different now, families came up and stayed for the entire summer. KB: Right. JU: The fathers might stay in the city and come up on weekends, but the mothers and children were here for two, two and a half months. KB: Mhm. Yeah. JU: And that's not the case anymore. People only come up for a short period of time because so many of the children are in soccer or, whatever else there in. KB: Yeah. It's, too many obligations back. JU: Yeah, exactly. KB: Yeah. JU: But we still have a lot of children at the yacht club taking sailing lessons. It’s fun. KB: Well what was your in initial impression? Do you remember what you, when you first saw Saugatuck? JU: I was an infant. [Laughs] KB: Oh, okay so you don’t have any memories then? JU: No, but always coming when I’d get off, well now especially getting off the expressway and going down Ferry Street and Park Street, it's always felt like home. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: Even though I had a home in Chicago. KB: Yeah. JU: It’s just this was the place, a friend of mine said Saugatuck’s always been her happy place. It just, there’s a feeling of, I don't know optimism, and fun, and friends and just a lot going on, its fun. KB: yeah. JU: My friends in Chicago when I said I was going to live most of the time in Saugatuck after I retired said well what are you going to do? I mean, I said well, there’s plenty to do, in the winter it’s just there's [pause] right now. This week I’m going to be out, oh let’s see, I've been see in the last six nights and I got three more nights to go. KB: [Laughs] busy social schedule. JU: Yes, exactly. KB: Yeah, uh, can you share any particular memories about living here? Things or moments that are especially memorable for you either good or bad? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 4 JU: Well, I can remember when a building across the road from my cottage was fire and we thought our cottage was going to go. KB: Oh. JU: Yeah, my father moved the car down to Mount Baldhead and we went and sat in our boat, which was right on the river there. Uh, they seem to have a lot of fires. KB: Yeah it sounds like it. JU: Exactly, exactly. KB: And it was ultimately taken by a fire. JU: Mhm, well wooden buildings, it’s, it’s always been a problem. KB: Yeah. Um, were there any other places or institutions that were important to you in Saugatuck Douglas? Or places, key places that you hold dear memories? JU: So many places, Oval beach. The yacht club, sailing and the Pump House Museum. Um, just, there's just so many nice things in this community. KB: Mhm. JU: and so many people. KB: Yeah. JU: And uh, and people work together. KB: Right. JU: We're trying to save as much of the environment as we can. Um, we lost the Presbyterian Camp, to development. So many of the huge big trees have been cut down and taken out, it’s just, it’s kind of worrisome. KB: Yeah. JU: Although someone said, well your family is here and they probably cut down some trees to build the cottages. [00:10:06] KB: Yeah. JU: But [pause] I guess that's life. KB: It feels worse when it’s a larger development then? JU: Yeah. KB: One cottage, or? I, I, understand. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 5 JU: And then they’re just tearing up the, the dunes, the dunes have always just been so beautiful and the wildlife, I mean just now coming over here I saw some deer, I saw some wild turkeys the other day. KB: Mhm. JU: It's just kind of a, a special place. KB: Yeah, definitely. [Pause] How do you think, things other, well you’ve kind of talked about how somethings have changed in your whole experience with Saugatuck. Are there anything else that stick out as things that have changed or stayed the same in this area? JU: Well, people used to come as I said, and stay for longer periods of time, especially the cottage people. Now, so many of the cottages are seasonal rentals. Just around my house, my cottage, um, I live by a summer hotel which has been there even before my family college was built over a hundred years ago. But the cottages are all, for the most part seasonal rentals, and you don't know people who own it anymore. KB: Right. JU: You have to kind of go find out who it is. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: And it's kind of worrisome because I think a community can kind of lose its cohesiveness, when you have so many summer, or rentals, short term rentals. KB: Right. JU: I know people want to make money, and uh they buy property and they figure then can, you know rent them out, pay the mortgage or whatever. KB: Mhm. JU: I think that's something that maybe the city fathers really need to look at. KB: Yeah, definitely. Did you have any summer jobs while you were here? JU: No, not when I was here, I started working uh, when I was in college at the Museum of Science and Industry. KB: Okay. JU: And uh, if you quit during the summer they were, not going to hire you back. Well I quit my first year in the middle of August and um, I wanted some time before I went back to college, and my mother called me and said she’d gotten a call from the museum, would I work Thanksgiving and Christmas. So, I did that for, for the four years. KB: Oh, okay, yeah. JU: It was a great job, I mean my highest salary was 99 cents an hour. KB: [Laughs] When was that? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 6 JU: This was in 1963. KB: Okay. JU: and it wasn’t much, but it was just so interesting. I got you to do back up VIP tours. Which means I walk with the, um, Secret Service. KB: Oh. JU: Visiting dignitaries coming to Chicago that was one of the favorite places to take them because Museum of Science and Industry is world famous. KB: Yeah. JU: It's patterned after the Deutsches Museum in Munich and um, that was really kind of interesting. KB: Yeah. JU: One of the best parts was I’d get to have lunch in the executive dining room. KB: Really? JU: The director of the museum would be would be with the VIP and then I will be tagging along with the secret service. That was fun, I enjoyed that. KB: [Laughs] That sounds fun. So you were a teacher by training? JU: Yes. KB: So you taught in Chicago? JU: I taught in Chicago, at my Alma Mater! KB: Oh! JU: South Shore High School and there's quite a few of us here in the Saugatuck area who graduated from South Shore High School on the South side of Chicago and um. KB: You all ended up in Saugatuck? JU: Well, for various, and yeah, if you, Chicago, if you lived on the South side, you’d go away in the summer to Michigan. If you lived on the North side, the chances were very good you’d go up to Wisconsin. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: And if you lived on the West side or the west suburbs, [pause] you had a choice. KB: Yeah. JU: But many of them can to Saugatuck. Shorewood, which is a development over on the lake is mostly people from the Oak Park area originally. I don’t know if you've interviewed anyone from there or not. KB: I'm not sure. I haven’t, but we might have somebody else who has. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 7 JU: Okay, I have a friend who probably should have interviewed because um, their family cottage I think was started in 1926. KB: Oh wow. JU: In Shorewood. KB: Okay. JU: And they still have the, the original cottage. I was just talking to her this morning. KB: That’s amazing, what’s her name? JU: Uh, Lucy Reinege Hoight. [00:15:00] KB: Okay we’ll see if we can get her interviewed. JU: Yeah, she’d have to come up here and uh, she was supposed to come up this last weekend to help out with the benefit that we had but she had a cold and so better stay in Barrington. KB: [Laughs] Yeah, um if you stayed in Saugatuck, did you ever go to Douglas? Or if you stayed in Douglas did you ever go to Saugatuck? JU: Well, Saugatuck and Douglas have a rather unusual relationship. Um, childhood friend of mine, she was born in Chicago but she came here when she was quite young with her parents and she fell in love with a gentleman from Douglas. Before they got married she said, Jane I can’t live in Douglas! I mean, I’m from Saugatuck! Well, they eventually did live in Douglas, but it's kind of, it’s kind of hard to explain. I mean if you're from Saugatuck, you're from Saugatuck. KB: Mhm. JU: If you’re from Douglas, [pause] what can I say? I mean I have go through Douglas to go to downtown Saugatuck. KB: Yeah [Laughs] JU: Because I live across the river. KB: Oh yeah. JU: And Campbell road is the dividing line. KB: Yeah. JU: I, I met some friends at church recently and I said where do you live and she said Douglas, I said oh that’s too bad, and then we all started to laugh. I shouldn’t have said that. Douglas is a neat town, and I have many friends in Douglas too. KB: [Laughs] JU: But there’s that rivalry. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 8 KB: Hm, yeah. JU: I don't know if you heard it from other people or not, but uh. KB: I have. JU: Oh, okay. KB: It’s interesting because they’re so close, but yet very distinct. JU: Well, Saugatuck’s always been the tourist town. KB: Yeah. JU: And Douglas was more of, you know, people who lived here, and for a long time downtown Douglas looked like kind of, well, then a group got together. Really it’s just the, you know, the main street is here, its lovely. KB: Yeah. JU: Interesting stores, and they, you know, they decorate and you might have heard about big parade over holiday, the 27th. KB: I have. JU: Yes. KB: Yes. JU: We call it the adult parade. KB: [Laughs] JU: There was a children's parade in Saugatuck in the afternoon, and we have fun over here every evening. KB: Yeah, interesting. JU: I can remember when I’d practically know everyone in the Douglas parade. But now it’s gotten so big that it’s just, humongous. Just to find a place to park to go and stand on the sidewalk is, a major undertaking. KB: Is it because of out of town people? Or because the town has grown? JU: It’s a lot of people from up for the weekend. KB: Okay. JU: It’s, it's the last big weekend really of the season. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: And a lot of people come from the surrounding communities. KB: Okay. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 9 JU: Saugatuck Douglas we have kind of a, [pause] risqué kind of, many people feel we’re [pause] Sodom and Gomorrah? KB: [Laughs] That’s an interesting comparison. JU: Yeah, I, there’s some people, there are people that are very very religious and strict. I can remember when Holland was dry. I can remember when Holland, nobody would even answer their telephones on Sunday. All the stores were closed. KB: Mhm. JU: And people in Holland would come down to Saugatuck to make merry. KB: [Laughs] JU: And then Holland started relaxing. Meijer’s opened on Sunday. KB: Oh. JU: Woo! That was, and then just maybe the last 15 or 18 years Family Fare opened up on Sunday. KB: Mhm. JU: And you would think the world was coming to an end. I mean some people were just, so, they were just terribly, terribly upset. KB: Hm, I can imagine. JU: Holland’s changing. I mean you, I think you can even get liquor in Holland on Sunday now. KB: During certain hours, I think there are still some hours like in the morning where you can’t. JU: Well there’s, there’s laws, I think. KB: That might be Zeeland. JU: Okay, DeMond’s cannot sell liquor until noon on Sunday. KB: Yes, yep. JU: So you don't want go there around noon to get, you know, a, a loaf of bread, because the line sometimes can be… KB: Oh really? JU: Way too long, yes. From the people who are going to buy. KB: Interesting. JU: Liquor. But I mean, the whole country is, I don’t know, we have these laws, new laws and things like that, that just [pause] Saugatuck always did well with the Holland people coming down to drink. [00:20:05] KB: Huh, they didn't have any animosity towards them or anything? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 10 JU: The Holland people? No, they just take the money to the bank. KB: Yeah. JU: Money is money. KB: Money is money. I want to go back to what you said about taking lessons from Cora Bliss Taylor. Did you get any other interactions with our community? JU: Well we used to go down to Oxbow, um, at the end of the season they always had what they called the burial of the year. They would have a cement plaque that they would bury and walk about what went on through the year, and uh, that was always kind of fun ceremony. KB: Oh, interesting. JU: Recently they’ve had um, what they call the open studio nights, on Friday nights? KB: Right. JU: Where it’s Oxbow but you can go down there. I mean I've wondered around there, probably legally and illegally all my life. Uh, I met a woman at a meeting or something and I said, you know, when you met someone around here, where you live and she said on Oxbow Lagoon, and I said oh! With the pier? And she said yes, I said, oh, I’ve, I’ve sat on that pier. Well the fact of the matter is that there's several no trespassing signs there… [KB laughs] …and she looked at me, and I said well, you know, I, I’ve gone down there and she said, you and everybody else in this town!... [KB laughs] …well we’ve become very good friends. Even though I was trespassing on her property… KB: [Laughs] She could see past that. JU: Yes, eventually. Yeah, you wander around as kids you, you just, you know, you kind of go where you’re going to go. KB: Mhm. Um, did you spend time, near the water? And did you participate in any activities around the waterfront? JU: Oh, yes. Always. My parents had a little wooden outboard motor boat and as soon as I was strong enough to pull that cord on that 5 ½ horsepower Johnson, I was off. [KB laughs] JU: My parents never caught me at it, I was, I was careful and then course I’ve been sailing. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: Since I was twelve years old. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 11 KB: Yeah. JU: I love to go out sailing. KB: It’s a good place for sailing. JU: Yes it is. KBL Yeah. JU: I’ve tipped the sailboats over a few times and uh, maybe I’ll do it again, who knows? KB: [Laughs] Maybe. How, how would you describe Saugatuck Douglas to somebody never been here before? JU: Well, it's kind of a world away. Some people call it the New England or the Cape Cod of the Midwest. Its community where people, we have artists, we have sailors, we have environmentalists, uh we have tree huggers, which I'm one of. Um, and we can come together on a project. Sometimes we can fight each other on the things, um, but it’s a community that cares. KB: Mhm. JU: And that's I think, the most important thing. KB: Mhm. JU: Sometimes in big cities you kind of lose out that, you know caring for people, you know, what can you do to help people. KB: Yeah. JU: In a small town you know people. When you hear a siren, you kind of wonder, you know, uh oh, could it be somebody you know. When they're racing up to Oval Beach past my cottage, I’m, I’m kind of worried that someone in trouble in the water. KB: Yeah. JU: You know, you just, things like that bother you. KB: Absolutely. [Pause] Um. Can you tell us some of your, well, we’ve talked about memories of being here in the summer. Do you have any favorite memories that stand out? JU: Well see let's my mother had a rule that she did not, since the kitchen in the cottage was not like kitchen in Chicago. Oh, I can remember when we had an ice box when I was very very young and the ice man didn't come and was it hot. KB: Oh. JU: And my mother said, we’re getting an electric refrigerator and we did that afternoon. But, my mother had a rule, we ate out, Thursday night, Sunday night, and Tuesday night, for dinner. So we would frequent the various restaurants in town because my mother said it was no vacation for her. KB: Right. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 12 JU: If she had to cook every night. Exactly, and um… KB: So she spread it out. JU: Oh yes, we would eat out three nights a week. KB: Did you have a restaurant? [00:25:00] JU: Well, Louise Easton had a great restaurant on water the front. It's, walked a plank to get there, it’s where the Mermaid is now, and we used to go to Tera and let’s see, where else was a favorite place? Mount Baldhead Hotel a Thursday night, they called French Buffet, it was good. KB: That sounds good. JU: It was really good, ah, and you could sit on the swings on the porch. The Mount Baldhead Hotel burned in 59 as I remember it, 58 or 59, sounds about right. But, um, and we’d often go out for breakfast. The old rail grill had really good French toast. It was just yummy, we’d take the ferry across and the old rail was right there at the other side by the ferry. And um, we used to eat out a lot. As I said, my mother just, it was no vacation for her. KB: Yeah, that makes sense. JU: Yes, she enjoyed eating out. We did a lot of eating out in Chicago too as I remember. KB: In everyday not vacation life. JU: Yeah, it, hey, makes life easier. KB: It does. JU: We’ve always had good restaurants here in Saugatuck. KB: Yeah. There’s still some good ones. JU: Mhm. KB: Did you get into any types of shenanigans? And were you a participant, instigator, or bystander? JU: Hm, let’s skip that question. KB: [Laughs] JU: I’ve, I’ve gotten into things over the years, uh, probably still getting into things. But uh, no I had a group and we had fun, let’s put it that way. KB: You enjoy it. JU: Yeah, we’d be out by the boat, and we’d see the police patrol, and uh more than once I had to beach the boat because we were probably lacking in life preservers. KB: Oh. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 13 JU: Yeah, that's, that's one of the things. KB: What was your impression of law enforcement? Did you feel comfortable around them? JU: Yeah? I mean, I didn't have much interaction with them. KB: Okay. JU: The Justice of the Peace was a family friend, um, he used to hold court. Um, just, we did have an intruder one time. Uh, on our porch in the middle of the night and we called the police, they came and he ran off. He did two or three times and then finally our neighbor Bill Bors who owned the Beachway Hotel at the time, came with his old civil war rifle. [KB laughs] And held him until the police came. And they got him down, I think he, the guy was high on drugs. KB: Oh. JU: Took him over to Allegan, and the police said, well you don’t have to go over, I mean, it’s like 3 o’clock in the morning. But he got bailed out the next day. [KB laughs] Turns out he was some kind of a big wig from some company over in Detroit, I think he had some acid or something that made him just nuts. But he, was just coming up on our porch and there were no steps, you had to kind of swing up on it. KB: That must have been kind of scary. JU: It was, I went down and got a rake, a metal rake, and I was going to go swinging at him. [KB laughs] Now people, Saugatuck’s gotten kind of wild but you know the riots that they talk about, they passed over my head. The, you know, the Jazz festival things and stuff like that. Living over on the other side it was always, we didn’t really hear about it. We’d read about it in the newspaper. The next day or something like that but it was, it was kind of world of its own. It was the summer people. KB: Mhm. JU: And your friends, and that was about it. KB: Yeah. JU: We’d go to town every day to get the mail. I still have to get my mail at the post office. As a friend of mine, who’s since died said, you can spend half a morning going to the post office and meeting your friends and talking, finding out what's going on. It’s true. KB: [Laughs] That actually leads well into my next question, which is, what do you remember about the social life, uh, being here in the summer and who did you socialize with? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 14 JU: Well let's see, um, people that I would take classes with. There were parties, parties, church parties, uh, yacht club parties. Bonfire parties on the beach. Um, it was always just kind of, a, a gang of kids. KB: Okay. JU: And you just had a great time. KB: Yeah. JU: Some of them are of still around. [00:30:00] KB: [Laughs] That’s awesome. So now um, I have a few questions about looking into the future. JU: Okay. KB: For Saugatuck and what your hopes are. So, um, well my, my first question is what are some of your hopes for the future for yourself and for your community? JU: Well, I would like to see [pause] more people living here and not just renting out their homes because I think you lose the sense of community. KB: Right. JU: Um, some neighborhoods up on the hill are mostly rentals and people are getting concerned about that. Now my area has been rentals for a long time. But, I think they're going to have to some rules and regulations on the rentals. KB: Hm, yeah. JU: It’s not going to be popular with the people that are doing it, but uh, the community could lose its soul. KB: Right. JU: If we have too many people moving in an out all the time. KB: Yeah. [Phone rings] JU: Julie let me you call. KB: And what you do think you have the greatest needs currently are facing, the community, which is kind of a similar question. JU: Well I do know the school needs more children if they’re going to continue in running really excellent educational program. I’m saying this as a teacher too. KB: Right. JU: And that they need families. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 15 KB: Mhm. JU: And that's a problem because property in Saugatuck and Douglas is expensive. KB: Right. Right. JU: The tourist trade and the second home people. Um, very few children come from Saugatuck and Douglas, most of the children's in the school, I think are coming from the township. KB: Oh yeah. JU: But they need, need more families, with children in the schools. The schools, I mean they’re incredibly um, talented teachers, administrators, they just need more students. KB: Yeah. [Laughs] JU: That’s, the problem is the cost of housing. KB: Yeah, absolutely. JU: I see that definitely just looking at the prices of homes in the newspapers and the ads and things like that. KB: Mhm yeah, big problem. JU: And we have to protect our environment. KB: Mhm. Yeah. JU: That’s, that’s really so important. That we [pause] we don’t want to lose the beauty of the area. I mean that’s what attracts people. KB: Right. JU: The fact that we were able to protect the property from Oval Beach to the piers was amazing, and the late senator Patty Berkholtz was so important in that, in raising money. She died this past spring. We’re mourning her loss because she was so important in that, trying to protect the property. KB: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, remembering that this interview is going to be saved for a long time. JU: Mhm. KBL Uh, when somebody listens to this tape, say in 50 years from now. What would you like them to most know about your life and community right now? JU: My life in the community? Well I think everyone in a community has to give back to their community. In volunteer work, or donating money for good causes, that’s what makes a community vibrant and I hope I can continue to do that. KB: Yeah. That’s great, and also do you have any um, advice for a young person who might listen to this tape? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 16 JU: Get involved in things. Work for good. Whether its social issues, political issues, whatever, whatever you can do to make it a better world. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: Because the people that are just for themselves, I feel sorry for them. You’ve got to give back. KB: Absolutely, that’s great. JU: Okay. KB: So that concludes my questions, do you know anything else that you want share that you didn’t get a chance to? JU: Well, let’s see. [Pause] I can’t think of anything, I think I’ve hit all the points I wanted to make. KB: Okay. Sounds great. Well thank you so much for being here and sharing your memories with me. This concludes our interview. [00:34:58] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-UnderwoodJ-20181008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Underwood, Jane Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-08 Title A name given to the resource Jane Underwood (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Jane Underwood's grandparents and father came to Saugatuck during the summertime. They stayed in a hotel in Macatawa before buying property in Saugatuck. In this interview, Jane reflects on her own experiences summering and sailing in the area and then moving to Saugatuck during her retirement. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bosch, Katelyn (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Holland (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Sailing Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/272dda5142eba839ef7d8a0af5b47368.pdf 87a84c3d75905a382c2ef7812570295c PDF Text Text How Popular Culture Influences Women 's History Jane 11 Hobson University of Albany Historical Consciousness and the Black Feminist Imagination March 17, 2015 Russell Kirkhof Center 2204 Pere Marquette 6:00 PM For1nd1v1dualsrequ1nngspec1alaccommodat1onspleasecalllhe Women's Center at 616-331-2748 or email: womenctr~gvsu.edu � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_WGS_2015_InvitedSpeaker_JanellHobson.pdf Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Women, Gender & Sexuality Studies Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-03-17 Title A name given to the resource Janell Hobson: Historical Consciousness and the Black Feminist Imagination Description An account of the resource Flyer of the talk, including the location and time. Subject The topic of the resource Women's studies African Americans--Study and teaching Feminist theory Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies Department Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/93c75b6782b3cdab8871c7519f5e29fd.jpg 2097e22ee2b1752c157efca5130e5b58 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_EastmanAlbum_2_1909-1911_006 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909-11-26 Title A name given to the resource Janet horseback, Fultonville Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Janet on horseback in Fultonville, New York. Subject The topic of the resource Portraits Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c090eb8f93704e8e980b0917bd6c5dc1.mp4 577664d50e4eba78641701fe857d65e1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f7e5d2f9c02a6fe59fff288630f2d9c.pdf eab4a7e27057cfd7545da2cfd225c865 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Steven Janicki (00:20:15) Transcribed by: Joan Raymer July 13, 2007 Interviewer: “Steve, can you give your name and where you were born?” Steven Anthony Janicki, I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on February 4, 1924. Interviewer: “Where did you go to school and what was your early schooling like?” I was going to Sacred heart School on Grand Rapids, from the first grade to the ninth grade. From there I went to Davis Tech for the tenth grade period. Interviewer: “Right about this time how old were you when you went to Davis Tech to school?” Tenth grade, I was 16 years old and I went to school for one month in September. Interviewer: “Who were some of the guys you were hanging around with, and what age were they?” Bob Norton, Earl Williams, Bob Stevens, they were all 17 or 18 years old. They were going to Union High School and they belonged to the National Guard. Interviewer: “Was this something that appealed to you?” Not really, a lot of my friends that I hung around with, they went to CC Camp, because times were pretty tough and that the only place where they could go more or less to get a job. 2:32 The government fed them and gave them a little spending money, which they sent home. Interviewer: What was CC Camp?” The Civilian Conservation Corps. They went up north and planted trees in the forests and that’s about what that amounted to. Interviewer: “ Lets begin here, when did you start thinking about the National Guard?” I think maybe in July, because the fellas I told ya I was hanging around with, they were in the National Guard getting ready to go to Camp Grayling for 2 weeks and to me camp sounded pretty good. They had a Lake Marguerite at Camp Grayling where they could go swimming and the government fed them and gave them clothes and I thought that was a pretty good deal, but I was only 16 and when they did get back from camp they were telling me how great it was and how much fun they had and boy I thought that was the best thing that ever happened to anybody, so that’s when I started thinking about getting into the National Guard. 3:43 They also told me that there was a swimming pool at the armory and if I signed up or got in, I could use the swimming pool any time I wanted to. And for an indoor pool at that time, man, that was a luxury and a half. 4:02 They finally got me in there –I signed up on October 12, 1940 that was on a Friday and the fellas that 1 �helped me get in, they figured if I signed up on a Friday then once I signed the papers, Saturday and Sunday came along and nobody bothered about it because they all wanted the week-end off so, I was in. So I did, I signed up on Friday and I figured I was in and by Monday morning we were mobilized. 4:38 So there was no way they were going to kick me out because they were short on members, men and I think they were glad to have people come in. They never checked me; they never worried about my age. Interviewer: “What was the reaction of your family that you were joining up?” It kind of went over their head. I don’t think they realized what was happening. There was no response. It was hard times; it was still kind of depression like. Interviewer: “If you were 16 years old, did you look 16?” I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that one. I tried to—you know, I tried to act big. It’s like these kids today that try to go buy a bottle of beer, they’re 18 or 19 years old and they try to look 21 so I don’t know how to answer that one. 5:46 Interviewer: “So your mobilized, lets get a better idea of what that means, what does it mean to be mobilized?” Well, you went out of the Michigan National Guard into the United States Army, that’s what it amounted to. You were under now the Federal Government’s jurisdiction. We started training, they gave me some clothes that didn’t fit, shoes that didn’t fit and we used to go up to Lookout Park, that’s up off of Division Avenue and we use to train there, march, close order drill and the usual stuff. 6:33 I think we did that for a couple of weeks and they started making plans to ship out to Louisiana. Interviewer: “Now this is for more formal training or basic training?” Well, the close order drill is generally what the army or any military service does right from the beginning. It teaches you coordination as a group, but it was the basic training. 7:07 Interviewer: “So now you’re being gathered up to go to Louisiana and these friends, these are guys you grew up with in this group?” Yes. I was in the same company with the people I hung around with mostly, all except the older ones that were married or—anybody that was 19 or older, they were out of my class, to me they were like “old men”. 7:39 Interviewer: “So give us an idea of how many people we’re talking about, that part of your group.” I think maybe 80, give or take 5 or 10 guys. Interviewer: “So how did you get to Louisiana?” We went to the Union Station, we boarded trains, I was in the baggage car, I stayed with the baggage, and the rest of the fellas they were in day coaches. I think it took us, I don’t know, it’s hard to recollect, maybe 2 or 3 days, but we marched up Monroe Avenue and 2 �right down to the train station and boarded the train, I think we left towards evening, maybe 7 or 8 o’clock. 8:34 Interviewer: “Why were you in the baggage compartment?” We took the baggage and I dumped our stuff and everything, uniforms, blankets, all our equipment that was all thrown in the baggage car. Interviewer: “Why were you there instead of in front with the rest of the guys?” There were a few more with me, the lowly ones, I was a “dog face”, they didn’t call them “dog faces” then, but that’s what you were considered, the “lowly one”. Interviewer: “So you arrive in Louisiana, describe what you found for us when you got there.” Well, we got out there and we got on some trucks and I think we went to Camp Beauregard and it was hot and we had OD clothes on, which are olive drab, woolen clothes and it was hot. I remember going into camp, they had tents up and I think there were 8 men to a tent. So, I think it was each squad had there own tent and we put all our equipment in there and that’s where it all became. 9:52 Interviewer: “Now this squad you’re referring to once again, are these your close friends that you grew up with?” No, no, There was only maybe one of them that I grew up with, the others were in different squads, maybe in the next tent or 2 tents down, but after a little bit you got to know everybody. Interviewer: “ Now just so—especially considering that this is so close to home, here in Grand Rapids, the guys that are in the tent next to you, maybe you didn’t know in grand Rapids, when you started to talk to tem, you found out what street they lived on, these were all Grand Rapids people, right?” All Grand Rapids people, ya, boy it’s kind of hard to recollect what we talked about. 10:41 Interviewer: “Just thinking as your getting to know people and they ask, “where are you from?” and you say, “I’m from Monroe Avenue or I was on Kalamazoo Avenue—I guess what I’m trying to get across is that during this period of training, you became good friends with these guys?” Right and I think the first thing you ask them was, “where did you go to school?” and it varied, some of them went to Creston, some of them went to Davis Tech, some of them went to Union High School, those that went to Union High School, our commanding officer was one of their teachers and I think that’s the reason they got into the National Guard and that was Captain Merl Howe. 11:30 Some of them went to South and Ottawa. Interviewer: “ So, your now in Louisiana, your in a squad, you’ve got a tent, give us an idea what your daily routine was like during the first stages of your training.” 3 �Well, you woke up in the morning at 5:30 and you had to fall out for roll call and after that you went back in your tent and you made up your bunk and cleaned up out in the bath house, you washed, I can’t say shave because I didn’t shave. Interviewer: “ I was just going to say, you didn’t mention shaving.” 12:21 No, no, I didn’t shave, but you cleaned up and then you went back to your tent and you waited for the mess call and then we went to eat breakfast and after breakfast we had about a half an hour or so and then we fell out, the company and we had back packs, our rifles and we went out in the field to drill. 12:54 That was more or less normal for the time we were there. Interviewer: “How would you describe the training? What kind of training did you have?” Well, the training, it was more or less something based on what the officers went through in WWI, nothing about trenches, but you know you kind of ran and zigzagged as if somebody was shooting at you and we hid behind trees and you crawled on the ground, but that was basically about it. Interviewer: “Now we mentioned shaving earlier, I understand there was an incident in which the shaving was brought up, would you talk about that?” We had our first full field inspection and the Lieutenant came out and he stood right—he come up to you and he stood right in front of you and he would look you right in the face and he looked at me and I thought Oh, Oh, and he said to me, “when was the last time you shaved?” and that struck me so funny, I busted out laughing and he called me a few choice words and he put me on KP for a week, which is Kitchen Police, and I still thought that was pretty funny and he called my squad leader who was Adrian Bush and he told him to take this kid out to the bath house and teach him how to shave. 14:45 That’s when I knew I was accepted. I thought that was the greatest thing that ever happened to me, somebody taught me to learn how to shave. That was the beginning. Interviewer: “I take it though, you really didn’t need to shave at that age?” Well, I had “peach fuzz”, that’s what we called it, but I didn’t think I needed to shave, but I think they did. 15:12 Interviewer: “ So, after this basic training in Louisiana, where was your group sent from there?” Well, we were there until, I don’t remember the month we got there, but we were there until April and while we were there they were building up Camp Livingston and we went from Camp Beauregard to Camp Livingston which was actually much better than Beauregard. We had gas stoves in our tent, the tents were elevated off the ground, they had wood floors and there we got our first bunch of draftees. 16:00 People that were brought in on the first draft and most of them were from the Grand Rapids area, which made in pretty nice, because some of the fellas that came in there, I knew them from Grand Rapids, they lived on the West side where I lived and I knew the. I was very surprised and shocked to see they were drafted, those that came in. 4 �Interviewer: “I want to continue from there, but before we do there was an incident you referred to back at Camp Beauregard, you talked about one of the officers wanted you to build—asked if you were a carpenter or not.” Oh ya, the Lieutenant he came up and that was the same Lieutenant that told the Corporal to take me down and teach me how to shave. He asked me if I was a carpenter and I told him no and he said, “well you are now” and he wanted me to build him a clothes rack and I told him, I said, “I have no idea on how to build a clothes rack” and he said, “well, your going to learn”. 17:14 They had officers tents, one man officers tent and the poles in there must have been maybe 2 ½ inches in diameter so, I went to the Supply Sergeant and I told him I had to build a rack and I had no idea how to do it and he told me to get a plank and nail the plank to the post in the back of the tent and get a wire and put it from one end of the plank up around the post and down the other end, put some nails in that plank and that’s the clothes rack. 17:49 Well I did that and that night it rained and this Lieutenant he just got his brand new set of “pinks”, officers clothes and in Louisiana it is all mud and clay and that clothes rack fell down and again, he came out storming and called me a few choice names and he put me again on KP, but this time for 30 days and like I say, at that time I kind of figured that I was “accepted” so, I took at the way it was. 18:28 Interviewer: “So, where is the other camp that you went to? You said that you went to Beauregard then you went to?” We went to Beauregard to Camp Livingston and we were there for up until Pearl Harbor. Interviewer: “Where is Camp Livingston?” In Louisiana. Interviewer: “Louisiana—was there a difference in the training or the routine from Beauregard to Livingston?” No, the training was the same. Everything was based on what these officers went through in WWI. We didn’t have a lot of the equipment, we simulated Jeeps, we didn’t really know what a Jeep was. If you were going down and we were out in the field you know, some of the G.I.’s would pass ya and they would holler, “peep, peep, I’m a Jeep” you know, everything was simulated. 19:33 Some of the machine guns were simulated. We weren’t build up with equipment the way we should have been, but then nobody knew this was coming on, but everything was pretty much based on what these officers went through during WWI, minus the trenches. Interviewer: “Do you need some water?” Please. Interviewer: “All right, so were at Camp Livingston and you said that the training is still pretty much the same, WWI related tactics and whatnot, what happened on Pearl Harbor day? What was your reaction to that?” Well, the week before Pearl Harbor they had a convoy going to New Orleans so, anybody that wanted to go could go for the weekend, we left on a Friday and we were heading out to a school in New Orleans and one of the friends from our company, his dad lived in 5 �New Orleans so, we went in a convoy and we stayed at his place, he lived over an oyster house in the French Quarter, but we were there for the weekend and had a good time and then Sunday morning about noon, we were scheduled to go back to Camp Livingston, so we had to meet at the school and we got into these army trucks and a car pulled up behind us and a woman showed us papers saying, ”War Declared” and I don’t know where she got that, but I remember when we were going through the south there by these gas stations they used to have a little bird cage and they had a couple of spark plugs tied up in there and underneath they had a sign that said, “War Declared on Old Spark Plugs” and I thought it struck me kind of funny that she had this sign that said “War Declared’ and that was the first thought that come to mind. 21:46 and after that I ignored it and we never heard anything about it until we got back into Camp Livingston and we went to our tents and everybody running around camp and somebody was hollering that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor. 22:09 We got into our tent and our cots were gone, the mattresses were piled up in the tent, we were told to get our stuff and meet at the Company Street and we got into trucks and we went into, I don’t even remember the town, but we were guarding a lake that supplied the water to Barksdale Field and we were there for I think, a couple of weeks. At that time I drove a truck which took—I come back into camp and took the meals that were cooked at the camp over to the fellas at the lake and they ate and then I brought the stuff back and I’d be taking their meals to them. 23: 00 Interviewer: “Where did you learn to drive?’ At home, we had a 1927 Buick. My dad walked to work and he left the car home and at times I sneaked off and drove the car. Interviewer: “ Ok. I was just thinking, a 16 year old already driving a truck to the lake and back, that’s pretty amazing. What was the mood like amongst your group?” Quiet, somber, maybe a lot of guys were in deep thought. To me, I had no thought one way or another. To tell you the truth, I don’t think I could figure out what was going on. 23:50 I thought if anything, that we would be sent someplace to kind of stay in the country and never thought about leaving the country, that was the farthest thought from my mind. Interviewer: “Did you have any information about the devastation of Pearl Harbor? Did that have an effect, that a lot of American died there?” Not at that time, I don’t think we got too much of that. All we knew was that it was bombed and I don’t think it was really stressed, there wasn’t any TV or anything, everything we heard was over the radio and then when President Roosevelt got on the next day and he declared was on Japan and talked about a lot of devastation, a lot of killings and that was about it. 24:51 Interviewer: “So, you actually heard the speech live?” From Roosevelt, yes, on the radio and I remember him saying, “This day will live in infamy”. I think at that time he spoke to Congress and everybody was glued to the radio, but it was still far away. 25:14 I know it was our territory, but it wasn’t that close to home. 6 �Interviewer: “What was the next major change, where did you go from there?” Well, we were told that if we got foot lockers to send them home, which we did, we took them over someplace, I don’t remember where and they were going to ship them out for us and then we were going to Fort Devens, Massachussets, we were going to go—I thought we were going to go to Europe and a lot of the troops went by train. 26:02 I, with others, went in a convoy, we moved our trucks and I drove a truck with another fella by the name of Claire Earlywine, it was a gasoline truck, we were the last ones in the convoy and in case a truck ran out of gas, we supplied the gas, but we made a lot of stops between Alexandria Louisiana and Fort Devens and people along the way, when they saw us, they come out and they had cookies and milk and coffee, they were great. 26:44 We did get to Fort Devens and we stayed there for a while, I think it got pretty cold, I think I remember it snowing and then I think it was about February or March we moved out of there and we got on trains and we were heading out for California. 27:19 Interviewer: “Were you already formed into companies at that time?” All companies. Interviewer: “What Company were you in?” I was in company K, 126th Infantry. 27:36 Interviewer: “Where in California did you end up?” The Cow Palace, that is still there. I think that is the greatest trip I ever experienced. All the cars we traveled in were sleepers, we had Porters that lowered the berths, they did the berth for us, when we woke up in the morning they came back and they raised the berths up, they treated us like kings, that was quite an experience. 28:17 Interviewer: “Where in California did you end up?” San Francisco at the Cow Palace and we were there for, I don’t know, maybe a week. Interviewer: “It’s interesting because ending up on the West coast, was there any suspicion that maybe you weren’t going to go to Europe?” Well, we knew we weren’t going to go to Europe, but then again we didn’t know where we were going. 28:50 Europe was out of the question once we left Massachussets, going to California, I thought maybe we would more or less be guarding the coast and I had no idea we were going overseas. Interviewer: “So when did you find out you were going overseas and what was your reaction?” Well, we got on trucks and they took us to the pier and there was this luxury liner, the SS Lurline and man we looked at that and it was a huge ship. It was white, were the first troops that boarded it, there was still no talk about where we were going, but we knew we were going overseas, but as far as combat, I don’t think we give that much of a thought, because we didn’t know where we were going. 29:52 We could have been going to someplace that was out of the range of the Japanese or something, we never gave it a thought that we were going someplace that we were going to be fairly soon into combat. 7 �When we got on the Lauraline, man that was luxury. They still had civilian cooks on there, the swimming pool was drained of water and they put bunks up in there, our company, we slept on the fantail. 30:28 The food was out of this world, some of the guys had staterooms and it was really a luxury. Interviewer: “Now there is an ancient tradition crossing the International Date Line, did you go through any kind of a ceremony?” They had what they called initiation of going over the equator, we had King Neptune and we were shellbacks or pollywogs or something like that and once you got initiated you were—oh man, I can’t remember what they called it then, but we had guys that were walking around in grass skirts and they painted them, some of them had their hair shaved off their head, it was just really a crazy time, I think it was worse, I mean better, than Mardi Gras because when you have something like that when your on land or at home you don’t want to look like a complete idiot, but when your at sea and the only person that is going to see you is another guy, you don’t care what you look like, it was fun. 31:50 Interviewer: “So, what happened to you personally? What did they do to you?” Nothing, I was a bystander, I watched all of this. One of the guys that was in our tent, Frank Buise, he had all, his hair wasn’t shaved off, but it was zigzagged you know and he was a redhead and he looked like “Woody the Woodpecker”. You made fun of it, you joked of it, but after a couple days everything started getting back to normal. Interviewer: “How did you get out of this, you never crossed the equator before?” No, everybody wasn’t initiated, they didn’t have the time to—because there were so many troops on there, I don’t know how many thousands were on there, but there were quite a few. 32:37 To initiate each one of them would have taken, I don’t know, maybe a couple of days or so. Interviewer: “All right, so what about, this is your first time on a major ship or even a boat, what was your physical reaction to being on a boat for that long?” Well, I don’t know, I kind of enjoyed it, we would get out and you would see nothing but ocean and water and everybody seemed to have been in a, I don’t say a jovial mood, but it was a, I want to say, contained. 33:21 We did have our division orchestra on board ship and they played in the afternoon and in the evening, we had a fella that was a very good singer and I think his name was— I know his last name was Fisher and don’t get him mixed up with Eddie, I think his first name was Frank, in fact he just died maybe 4 or 5 years ago, but the going song at that time was “Tangerine” and of course the “Beer Barrel Polka” and we had some good entertainment. 33:59 That kind of took the worries off of everybody. Interviewer: “You know Bob Hartman talked about eating lemon drops because he was so seasick, did you have any reaction to seasickness?” A little bit, not too much, but some of the fellas in the bay when we left a harbor to get out into the open ocean, San Francisco bay was pretty rough and a lot of them got sick big time. I think I got maybe nauseated, but not to a point where I was really sick. 34:37 8 �Interviewer: “So, now where did you land?” Adelaide, the southern part of Australia, we landed there and people came out and they greeted us, people were very warm and friendly, of course they realized they needed us, we really went there to save them. We unloaded the ships, we went to camp, I don’t remember the name of the camp we went to, but that was our initial point and then from there we went to Brisbane and from Adelaide to Brisbane we had to change trains 3 different times. They had 3 different gauges of railroad, I think that’s the way the government operated, it was like going from Michigan to Ohio and the minute you hit the Ohio border, they had a different gauge railroad, you had to get off here, take off all your equipment and put it on the next train and go to that one and when you hit say Pennsylvania, you had to stop the train, get off, take your equipment and put it on another train because they had a different gauge railroad. 36:03 Interviewer: “By now you must realize your going into battle, you’re on foreign soil, did anybody tell you what you were going to do next?” No, no, we went into Brisbane and we did have some Australian officers come in and they were telling us about the way the Japanese operated, their experience with them, they told us about the Japanese tying themselves up in the trees, so that if you did walk into combat everything wasn’t on the ground, you had to be careful because they were up in the trees and even if you shot in the trees and killed one of them they wouldn’t fall out because they strapped themselves in, so that was something that had to be considered or thought about when we were going into combat. 37:08 Interviewer: “Now Steve, you’re training up to this point were WWI type tactics and now your entering into jungle conditions, did you have any clue what jungle conditions were going to look like?” No, not a thing, nothing at all, when we were in Brisbane all we had was some of the remarks that the Australians came in and told us about and they stressed that the Japanese are cunning, they’re ruthless, you had to be on the alert and realize that they are in trees. This was the initial point because when you go into combat you know, your scared and at the first burst of fire, your first thought comes that they are in front of you, but then again by them telling us, “you have to watch out for the trees” and everything else involved, your not going in there half cocked. 38:20 Interviewer: “So at this point in time, you’re in a totally different environment than Louisiana, where you issued any kind of clothes or camouflage for the jungle campaign?” They weren’t camouflage, we had, boy I’ll tell ya, I don’t even remember what we had now. Khakis maybe. Interviewer: “Well some of the guys had talked about some officer that had an idea about painting camouflage on.” It didn’t happen to us, it didn’t happen to us and I don’t know, I think we had dungarees, but I’m not quite sure, it doesn’t come to mind. 9 �Interviewer: “That’s all right. So where did you go from there? Oh, one other thing, I understand that the Australians that you were talking to actually had experience outside of the jungle, they were called “the rats of Tobruk” or something?” They fought in the middle east, they were in Tobruk and some of them did fight the Japanese and they came in—those that were in Tobruk and did fight the Japanese, their the ones that came and told us kind of what to expect because most of the Australian troops were still in the middle east. 39:56 They didn’t get home until sometime in 1943. Interviewer: “So, where did you go next?” We boarded liberty ships in Brisbane and the way I understand it, we were brought out into the Coral Sea as bait to try to draw the Japanese Navy out and our Navy engaged them in the battle of the Coral Sea as we were going towards Port Moresby, New Guinea, you could stand on the deck of the ship in the evening and see the reflections of the guns that were being fired in the sky. 40:46 Interviewer: “So, you arrived safely?” Well we had quite a storm in the Coral Sea, I’ve never seen a storm like this in all my life, we had a boat that was strapped down on the liberty ship, which I thought at the time was a yacht, but they called it a dingy I guess and there were a couple of soldiers sleeping in there and the wind pulled that boat right off the deck of the boat, pulled the bolts right off and the thing flew back maybe 5 or 6 miles and one of the other ships picked up the Australians that were in there, but it was quite an experience. 41:33 Interviewer: “So, where did you arrive?” Port Moresby. Interviewer: “What did you find there?” There wasn’t too much there, there were some G.I.’s there, but I don’t remember if they were ours or Australian. The first thing I remember as we were getting off the ship was there were a couple of bombers in the sky, but really, I don’t remember whether they were Japanese or they were our. 42:04 I think they were Japanese, but there was no firing going on and we moved from there to someplace about maybe 20 miles, I would say, north and west of Port Moresby. Interviewer: “At any time were you informed as to where you were going and what you would be doing?” Well, we knew we were going into combat, but we didn’t know how many troops we were facing, I don’t think anybody knew how many troops the Japanese had on the island, all I knew was that we were told that we’re going to have to take Buna and of course us being Americans you know, you figure well, were Americans, not going to be a bid problem, but we found out in a hurry that it would be. 43:07 Interview: “So how did you get to—were you marching on Buna at this point? What happened next?” No, after we got into a staging area, we were there I think a couple days and then they took us to the airport by truck and some of us flew about maybe halfway above the—into 10 �the Owen Stanley Mountains and we landed in a little airstrip there and from there on, we started trekking over the Owen Stanley Mountains. 43:44 Interviewer: “How was the weather?” The weather was hot, where we landed it was fairly decent, the clearing was pretty serene, but once we got out of that clearing and got into the jungle, the path towards Buna was maybe the width of a hand and a half or 2 feet or so. That is when we started running into rain, mud, the conditions started getting pretty rough. 44:17 Interviewer: “I’ve been in the jungle before, were there bugs and noises? Give us an idea of what it was like walking through there?” There were Macaws, what are they Parrots? Cockatoos, you hear all of that stuff, it’s kind of like what you see in a jungle movie, this is what you heard, the same sounds, but the deeper you got into the jungle, the Japanese where they were—we started coming in at one point and the Japanese were already in there and pushed back by the Australians, you didn’t hear too much of that anymore. 45:03 When we come into a village, the people knew we were coming, the natives, they moved their women right out of there and the kids, I think they were abused by the Japanese and they wanted no part of any outsider coming in so, they were out of the little villages, but we slogged through that stuff and then we got to a point to where, when your coming through the fields, it was nothing but mud and it rained every day at 3:00 in the afternoon and again at night about 11:00 and it was just indescribable, I don’t know how to put it, just mud, just plain mud. 45:48 Interviewer: “Now your climbing a hill or a mountain, so how do you, with all this equipment you got on and it’s muddy, you take a couple of steps up and what happens?” You take 2 steps up and you slide back about 50 feet, after a little bit you start taking your equipment and the stuff your pretty positive you’re not going to use, you start throwing it away. We took—the first thing I took off was the leggings, then you cut your pants off and you throw your razor away, you throw some of your other stuff away that you’re pretty sure you’re not going to need—mosquito bar, you throw that away, and after a few days, just before we hit the front line, some of the fellas started throwing away their rifles and their pistols, it was too heavy to carry. When we did finally get within 3 miles of the front line they realized that a lot of the equipment we had was gone, but they started airlifting it to us and by that time a lot of the guys were sick and they were sick big time. 47:04 Malaria, dengue fever, diarrhea, every imaginable disease that you would catch in a jungle, we started getting it. Interviewer: “So, what would happen to those soldiers that got sick?” Some of them that did get malaria, they were fortunate, they sent them back to a field hospital and they either sent them back to Australia and I understand some of them were sent back to the United States. 47:38 The others, once we got into the front line, we were desperate, we weren’t getting any replacements, unless you had a 105° fever or passed out, you stayed on the front line. 11 �Interviewer: “Before we get to the front line, let’s talk about how long did it take for you to get to the front line? Was it a couple days? Was it a week?” Oh, no, a couple weeks that I know of, a couple of weeks, I can’t give an exact amount. Interviewer: “I just want to get a general idea.” I would say a couple of weeks. Interviewer: “What were you eating?” They would drop us “bully beef”, which is corned beef, we had some I think “C” rations, they were little cans about that big, the best one was beans and hamburger. We did have some rice, they gave us—each of us had a handful of rice and they told us that when we stopped for the evening we could build a fire and we’d cook up our rice and we would share it, but you couldn’t built a fire because everything was saturated with water, so the rice didn’t do us any good. 49:03 The corned beef that they dropped us, a lot of guys got sick on it, it was actually putrid. Interviewer: “What about fruit? Bananas?” No, nothing like that. After a little bit we did see some banana trees, but they were all chopped down, not by machetes, but by machine gun fire, they were no fruits. 49:50 Interviewer: “So, when did you—what was your first indication that you were nearing the front lines? Did you hear machine gun fire? Did you hear guns? How did you know that you were right there at the front line?” Well, I don’t remember hearing any gun fire, if I’m not mistaken, I think we heard some artillery fire and we started walking—there was a clearing and when we got out of this clearing, we walked onto the jungle and we followed this path and then that’s when all hell broke lose. 50:38 That’s when we knew we were in big trouble. Some of the guys that walked in there never knew what hit them, we weren’t in there maybe 3 or 4 minutes and we lost quite a few guys, there was no screaming, no hollering, we were dumb founded, we didn’t know what to do, we actually didn’t know—we knew we were in a fight, but we didn’t know what was happening, we didn’t know which way to go, right or left, straight or back or whatever, but after a little bit we start thinking and we know were in big trouble. 51:30 So, we’re running for cover, we’re firing as we’re laying on the ground then you start realizing and thinking about what the Australians told ya, they’re not only in front of you, they’re above you, so you start shooting into the trees that are up, hoping you got some of them. At one time some of the Japanese would fire or they would shoot off fireworks and the fireworks would land behind you and that would scare the hell out of you because you didn’t know whether they were behind you, in front of you, it was quite an experience the first day. 52:16 Interviewer: “You know it’s hard to describe this kind of battle because if you were in Europe for example, you have an open field and you see guns ahead of you and you see the soldiers out, what was it like in your type of battle, could you see the guys to your right and your left, or in front of you, what was your field of vision like?” Limited, you could see somebody maybe 2 feet away, but the jungle was so overgrown that if they got about 4 feet away you had to make sure that it was them that you were— 12 �you knew they were on either side of you, but you weren’t sure, you had to be awfully careful that you didn’t lose your senses and shoot at anything that’s moving because after a little bit the least little movement, you’re raising your gun and your shooting. 53:12 Interviewer: “You know I have walked through the jungle many times, never in combat, but in the Boy Scouts and it can be a pretty noisy experience, tromping through—it’s not like you have a path there, so kind of give us an idea what the sounds were like at this time, did you hear rustling leaves around you and bullets going off, what’s going on?” You don’t hear so much of the rustling leaves, you hear the bullets going off, you hear some hollering, somebody would probably holler that it’s coming from the right or it’s coming from the left, so you kind of start shooting wherever the voice is coming from and then if your moving along you had to watch out because this was all swamp and if you stepped over say a log and you fell into a hole and you were in mud and water up to here, you’re wondering “how am I going to get out of this?” You certainly don’t want to let go of your rifle because that’s the only thing you got for protection. 54:15 You do, you turn around and you try to crawl back out and overall I would say it’s just instinct, you’re doing anything to keep yourself from getting killed and if you have to just dunk into your neck in this swamp and whatever, you do that to give yourself a push to get yourself up over the stump or whatever it is that’s laying there and then you’re—I don’t know how to finish that. 54:59 Interviewer: “Was there a point, you say in terms of instinct, was there a point where you could tell the difference between the sounds of their guns and your guns?” Well, their guns, you could tell if they were firing their rifles, the 25 caliber had kind of a snap to it, our guns had a hard bang, you could tell the difference between our rifles and their rifles, but when it came to the machine guns, the sounds were, I would say the same, you don’t pay no attention and all you knew was the machine guns were going off and you better duck someplace, you don’t know who’s firing, it could be them or us, but you were going to lay down and make doggone sure that you didn’t get it. 56:01 Interviewer: “What about things like hand grenades and mortar, what other kinds of weapons were being used?” Well, hand grenades, I don’t think we used hand grenades because we couldn’t see the enemy. We didn’t know where to throw them. I do understand that some guys would throw a grenade if they did see the Japs wherever they were and the Jap would pick it up and throw it back at them. I haven’t seen it, I haven’t done it, I don’t know. Interviewer: “Did you ever see a Japanese?” A couple of them, I saw them and you shoot and they’re not there no more. Interviewer: “Did you ever-- at some point, the battle either wound down or ended, how did it end?” It was quiet and all your doing is, your starting to move forward and you’re just wondering when is the next one going to start, because you’re always, you know that this one here was a little experience, but what are you going to hit on the next one, because they regroup also and they were wise in their ways, so each one ahead was going to be a little bit stronger than this one. 57:37 13 �Interviewer: “Now how were you organized at this time and was there a Sergeant or Lieutenant that come upon you and said we’re moving in this direction?” No, you would hear the Lieutenants say “we’re coming this way” or “we’re going that way” so you followed his voice, but there were no groups, I mean once it started you were kind of more or less on your own, you knew where the other guys were, but there was no regrouping and saying, were going here or were going there. I remember one time towards evening, the lieutenant came up and he said that a squad killed an officer and they left him there and he wanted 3 or 4 fellas to go down and guard this, it was a Japanese officer, so he sent 3 or 4 of us out and we thought this Lieutenant was crazy, we’re going to go guard a Japanese officer that was dead, but we were told that they do come back and do bury their officers, so when we got there, this officer was laying there and we stood there and looked at him and the guy said, “hey, to hell with him, he’s dead, we’re not staying here leaving ourselves wide open”, so we went back and the Lieutenant says,” well, was he taken care of? ”. We said, “ya”, and he said, “What happened to him?” We said, “we don’t know what happened to him, he was gone”, and we let it go at that. 59:22 Interviewer: “So, when nightfall came, what happened?” You dug a foxhole and you got in the foxhole and you stayed there. You didn’t dare move because if you moved, even your own men, not knowing who you were, would fire and then when you were in a foxhole, as long as the tide was out you were ok, but the minute the tide came in, the water from underneath came up into that foxhole and you’re laying in that water and mud too, so it was pretty rough. 59:57 Interviewer: “What kind of clothes were you wearing at this time? Was it cold or was it hot at night? What was it like?” The clothes we had on was what we left Port Moresby with, I would say they were dungarees or uh, mostly dungarees. 0:20 It wasn’t cold, but it did get cold when it rained. It was cold during the night, but not to a point where it’s freezing, very uncomfortable, but then in the morning when the sun came out you dried out in no time at all, it got pretty hot. 0:39 Interviewer: “So, did you have to dry your sox or anything like that?” No they rotted off of you, you didn’t worry about them. Your clothes actually started rotting off of you. At the last I did contact malaria, I passed out and I remember waking up in a field hospital on Townsville, Australia. They tell me that I was out for maybe 2 weeks. I did leave the front line with a 105° fever and if it was less than that you couldn’t leave. 1:26 I woke up in the hospital in Townsville and I’m sure when I left them it was the first part of January 1943. After a little bit in the hospital in Townsville, they sent me down to Sidney. I was in Sidney for a while and then I joined the 32nd again in New Castle, we were there taking boat training landing and after a while there I ended up back in the hospital with malaria and I don’t know how long I was in then. 2:21 After I got out, I was going to join our outfit back and they went up into New Guinea into Saidor. I didn’t join them there, I ended up back in the hospital, I must have been in and out of the hospital in Sidney for about a year’s time off and on. 2:46 14 �Interviewer: “A lot of people are not going to know what it’s like to have malaria, but describe the actual malaria, what it did to your body.” Malaria, when you get malaria you’ve got a 105 or whatever fever you got, you’re sweating, you’re clothes are saturated, you’re soaking wet and you’re freezing to death. 3:11 They’ll put blankets on you, they’ll put 10,12,15 blankets on you and it makes no difference, you’re freezing to death and all of a sudden you’re so hot, you have to take these covers off and you’re sweating and before you know, you’re getting delirious. Between sweating and freezing and delirium, you pass out and how they bring you to, I don’t know. 3:38 Interviewer: “So, over a period of time, you’re in bed, you recover and they take you out of the hospital.” Right. Interviewer: “You said in and out of hospitals.” In-between time, they put you—I was put in a base section outfit in Sydney. It was a dog track, they use to run Greyhound dogs there and a lot of these people that were in there, they worked in the offices for the government, they were all G.I.’s, they worked in the offices in Sidney, some of them worked in the motor pool, some of them were in transportation, they drove officers around, they drove visiting dignitaries and after a little bit, they put me in the motor pool and I worked in a part where they painted the automobiles, if they had an accident with them, they had a body shop and the guys repaired the things and we re-painted them olive drab. 4:46 Between that and back and forth to the hospital, back here and back there, it was kind of a regular routine, you would work for a while and you got sick and ended up in the hospital. 5:00 Interviewer: “So, the sickness would come on you gradually?” Oh, it came on, it didn’t come gradually, it came on when you started shivering you knew it was coming on and by the time they got to you, you were really more or less out of it. Interviewer: “Just jumping ahead, how long after the war did you continue to have that?” 5:23 I think I ended up in the hospital, rather I should say, I didn’t end up in the hospital here, I had malaria once, but it was no place near what it was when we were overseas and after I had it in Australia and I got into the motor pool there and after a little bit, I felt like I was doing pretty good so, I kind of requested that I go back to my outfit, I don’t know why, I think a man is a damn fool to do something like that, but they were starting to send men home on points and I don’t even know how they figured out their points, but if you had enough points you were next in line to go home so, I thought, “well, if I go back to my outfit, I should have more points than some of the replacements that just came in there, I just might be able to get sent home”, so I went and I joined them in New Guinea and we made a beach landing in Morotai. 6:37 Interviewer: “Why don’t you describe that because you said you had some training, some beach training already?” 15 �Ya, we had beach training then, we got on the LCI’s, landing craft infantry, and there was very little opposition on Morotai. So, I don’t say it was a piece of cake, but it was something that when the ramp dropped and you got off and ran onto shore, you made it. There wasn’t that much fighting there. 7:07 We were there for a while and we boarded liberty ships again and we went over to the Philippines and we landed at Leyte. We got off the liberty ship in Leyte, landed on the island of Leyte and I went up to the little town of Tacloban. There was a pineapple plantation there and by this time the jungle is entirely different from New Guinea. 7:48 It’s no more jungle, these are pineapple plantations, bananas, coconuts and whatever, but I ended up in a pineapple plantation and after about a week of fighting there, again I got malaria. 8:07 They took me back to the field hospital and they treated me and I started feeling pretty good so, I went along the beach there, walking around wondering what my next move will be, what’s going to happen to me and that’s when I saw 3 LCI’s coming in and 2 of them as they neared the shore, they went like this and they left a great big stream, that wake and everything, the 3rd one come in straight and they dropped the ramp and 2 guys come off and I looked and it was MacArthur, 2 guys grabbed him and took him off that ramp and put him in the water and they almost fell over and another guy had to come back and steady MacArthur and they figured the water was too deep, so they got him back on that ramp and they got him back on the LCI and they backed up raised the ramp and they brought him back in and they got closer and they lowered the ramp and 2 of the guys brought him out and they set him down in about a foot of water and he put his glasses on, he put his pipe in his mouth and he said, “I have returned” and some of the guys said, “well, where in the hell have you been?” 9:40 At that time, I just turned around, to me it made no difference, he had led us into slaughter in New Guinea and a lot of guys didn’t have any respect for him at all and I went back to the field hospital and the doctor came up and he said, “how are you feeling?” I told him, I said, “you know, I’m sick and tired of this whole damn thing” and he said, “boy you’re kind of”, I forget how he said that and I said, “well, I’ve been here a long time” and he said, “how long have you been here?” and I said, “I’ve been here since September of 1942” and I told him that I fought in New Guinea and Morotai and he said, “I think you’ve been here quite a while, I’ll make some arrangements for you” and I came down with malaria again and they got me on a hospital ship and I left the Philippines on a hospital ship and landed in San Francisco and from there I went to, on a train, well from there I went to what was that, Letterman General Hospital, I think that’s the one that’s in San Francisco, Letterman. 11:07 I was there for maybe a week and they sent me over to Camp Atterberry and when I got in Camp Atterberry they right away said that I could go home on furlough and I got home--I landed back in the states maybe the first week in January, the second week, then I got home, I think it was the last day of January. 11:35 I went into a bar on Coldbrook and Ionia, Kelly’s Bar, and I said, “I’d like a shot and a beer” and the guy looked at me and he said, ‘I can’t serve you, you’re not 21”. I was going to be 21 in 4 days, February 4th, so he said, “If you want anything to drink, you go upstairs, the refrigerator is full, help yourself”. I don’t want to drink that way, I want to drink with these people, but he let it go at that and my birthday was February 4th and my sister was going to bake a cake for me and she had no sugar so, I went to a little food store on the west side, about 2 blocks from where we lived and I bought 5 pounds of sugar, he sold it to me, you need a coupon and I didn’t have any, but I 16 �bought 5 pounds of sugar and it cost me $10.00. 12:40 I was glad to get it and she made me a birthday cake and that’s when things started to get a little bit better. Interviewer: “Describe your arrival back home. I mean, did they know you were alive?” They knew I was alive because I called home from San Francisco. I told them I was home, I was on American soil, I didn’t know when I was going to get home, but when I get home I will call you, or something to that effect. When I left Indianapolis on a train, it was day coach and we were pulling into the Union Depot in Grand Rapids and I knew that nobody was going to be at the depot for me because my dad was working in the furniture factory and my mom was home, my older sister, she was working in a defense plant, it was Applied Arts, I knew there wasn’t going to be anybody there, so when the train slowed down instead of getting off this side to go through the depot, I jumped off this side and I walked over Fulton Street bridge and I walked up Fulton Street and I just kind of took my time and I looked around and cried and I got home. 14:13 When my ma saw me, she cried and I cried and that was about it. Interviewer: “Steve, in your study there you’ve got several medals, one of them is a Bronze Star, was there a ceremony when you got it, did it just come in the mail?” All these medals that I got, I had to go through the legion in order to get them and it took me about 4 years to get them. I had to write to the Department of Records in St. Louis and then I got quite a few letters back from them stating that they had a fire there and they couldn’t find my records and I had to go through a board and as they were getting all this stuff together, I did have statements from officers from the 32nd, here in Grand Rapids, that were with me going through the islands, that verified that I was with them and fought with them in these different places and we sent all of that back into the department of records and they sent all of my medals to me. 15:43 There was no ceremony. Interviewer: “Why did you win the Bronze Star?” I think for being there. Interviewer: “That was enough?” That was enough I guess. Interviewer: “One of the questions I always ask at the end of an interview is, what did you personally feel you accomplished out there?” “Everlasting friendship.” 16:23 You never have friendship like this anyplace. The people you fought with, the people you live with, we know each other better than their parents know them or their wives, even to this day. You have a lot of faith in them, you have a lot of trust, you have a lot of respect and I think that’s all the guys’ want is respect. 16:50 Interviewer: “Steve, what do you think you personally got out of this experience, when you came back? Obviously, you were a 16 year old kid when you went there, what do you think—what changed, who was the Steve that came back?” 17 �Well, I grew up, I realized that you’re not as cocky as you were when you were home, you realize that people have feelings, you have to watch out how you approach people, you gotta treat people or you’ll learn to treat people the way—in short, you don’t want to hurt people. You want to treat them the way you would like to be treated and you have to realize that there are so many different people in this world, different religions, you have to respect their religious beliefs and I think you’re no better than the next person, you are who you are and when you go to bed at night and wake up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror, you know who you are, you know what you did and what you have gone through, it gives you a damn good feeling that you accomplished something that you’re not ashamed of. 18:55 That’s it. Interviewer: “Recently the Michigan Military Museum hosted a seminar, The Great Lakes History Conference and a couple of you actually had a chance to get up in front of an audience and I just wanted to hear your reaction to that. It was the first time you guys ever got up in that kind of a situation and how do you think the audience responded and how did you guys react to the response?” Well, I think that’s a good thing that happened. It brought back a lot of memories, it brought back a lot of things that should be said that weren’t said and it brought back the openness of all of us getting together and talking about, a little bit, what we did or what we tried to do without making yourself, or trying to make yourself a hero, we’re not hero’s, we were all in this together and we all helped one another and I think the biggest word there is help. 20:15 That’s about it. Interviewer: “So, did you ever swim in that swimming pool?” You know they tore the dang thing down for the freeway. I never did get to swim in that pool. You know, I laugh about it now, it’s awful funny, but I don’t regret one thing, nothing that I went through, nothing, I don’t regret anything. Interviewer: “Very good.” 18 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JanickiS Title A name given to the resource Janicki, Steve (Interview transcript and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janicki, Steve Description An account of the resource Steve Janicki served in the 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division, during WW II. His history includes some colorful accounts of his joining the guard and going through basic training (he was 16 at the time, and not even shaving yet). He covers the trip to Australia by ocean liner, additional training in Australia, and the difficulties of fighting in the jungle. Illness took him out of action at Buna in New Guinea, but he rejoined his unit for some of the later battles, and tells of seeing MacArthur on Leyte in the Philippines. His history was featured in the documentary Nightmare in New Guinea. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/58d96391215d364ea92bbe172b28558b.jpg 5509a4b2f00b577410dc3f6aa37649fe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_H145-0025 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967-08 Title A name given to the resource Janis Ian Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Janis Ian at a piano in a recording studio, wearing sunglasses and holding hands with a man at an organ. Photograph taken in August 1967 by Douglas R. Gilbert. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Ian, Janis Folk singers Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2ca48791d0bfd67627a7743450b46ecd.jpg fcb7a30417791d86c0245fdb14bf4be9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_H184-0017 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967-08 Title A name given to the resource Janis Ian Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Janis Ian taken in August 1967 by Douglas R. Gilbert for LIFE magazine. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Ian, Janis Folk singers Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1dbe83c67538965d1a69abe76fca6eae.jpg e3600de875b6802f35e6abf65b7c093b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_H203-0016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967-08 Title A name given to the resource Janis Ian Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Janis Ian standing in front of a shop window filled with circus posters. Photograph taken in August 1967 by Douglas R. Gilbert for LIFE magazine. Scanned form the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Ian, Janis Folk singers Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74806fb3af9f10a4ebc41bfaa82446d7.jpg f1f9b0ff0ef92af5ddaec8258709d7f0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_H203-0019 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967-08 Title A name given to the resource Janis Ian Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Janis Ian standing in front of a shop window filled with circus posters. Photograph taken in August 1967 by Douglas R. Gilbert for LIFE magazine. Scanned form the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Ian, Janis Folk singers Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives