425 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bbeafed1aeec1f5b67e43cae8647809e.mp3 a7b1f50eab2126bcd08ae8e05894ebc1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/15f7d80541dc3bf9ff2e3c9ae017f1ee.pdf e59d94c1a8e350f873d0cedaf66e4058 PDF Text Text Jacob: The Conquest of a Wheeler-Dealer From the sermon series: No Stained Glass Saints Text: Genesis 32: 24, 28 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan October 12, 1986 Transcription of the spoken sermon So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him… Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel… Genesis 32: 24, 28 The biblical story is not about what extraordinary people can do to effect the purposes of God, but rather, what God can do through very ordinary people in the establishing of His Kingdom. And in the Church, I am sure, the sin of preachers and Sunday School teachers is to get the focus all wrong, to lift up biblical characters and to make of them heroes and heroines, to put them in stained glass, to remove them far from ordinary folk like us, to make them exemplary models to strive after and to emulate, thereby robbing us of the common humanity that we share with the people that God has used through the centuries in the unveiling of the biblical drama. The Bible is not about saints in stained glass. It's about ordinary people, just like you and me, people with clay feet exposed, people who could be described as mixed bags, people with strengths and weaknesses, with good points and bad points, people who perform nobly on occasion and fail miserably the next moment - unsteady people. The story is not about faithful people who were able to effect the purposes of God, but a faithful God Who is able to use unsteady people for the realization of His Kingdom purposes. So, for a few weeks we're going to look at some of these biblical characters who have been put in stained glass and removed far from us, not really to shatter their image, but simply to be honest with the biblical narratives before preachers cleaned them up. Biblical characters have been set before us for so long as those exemplary persons whom we ought to emulate, and we in our own experience have felt so far removed from the faith of Abraham, the devotion of Peter and Paul, the loving commitment of a David, that we've written ourselves off as ordinary people as though there was a day when spiritual giants walked the earth, © Grand Valley State University   �Jacob: The Conquest of a Wheeler-Dealer Richard A. Rhem Page 2   but now is the time for ordinary peasants to make their way as best they can, as though there was a day when God did spectacular things, when He was really here, using great spirits, noble people for the effecting of His purpose. And now it's just business as usual with ordinary folk like you and me to whom God really wouldn't give a second look, or be able to do some great thing. This series of messages is not intended to debunk the saints, but to cause us to see that the biblical story is not really about extraordinary individuals far removed from us through whom God works, but rather about ordinary people through whom an extraordinary God can effect great things, because the Bible is not our story, but His story. And the Bible is a story, not about the great achievements of a few saints, but the marvelous grace of a God Who will never give up, in spite of the material with which He has to work. The likes of Abraham and Jacob and David and Peter and Paul and Mary and, well, John and Scott and Susan and Nancy, and all the rest here this morning – the likes of us – that's what the Bible story is made of, and I want us to get that focus right. For when we get that focus wrong, we make it a human drama. Then we sense our own lack and our own falling short, and we have pressure, that sense of oughtness, a legalism and moralism that distort the biblical drama. The wrong focus breeds pride, because if I am successful, I can congratulate myself for having been so faithful, so steady, so committed, so devoted, having such great faith. And if I fail, I despair of God's mercy, because then I write myself off thinking, if only I had more faith, if only I could pray with greater devotion, if only I could serve with deeper commitment, if only I were a better person, then maybe God would heed my prayer, then maybe He would heal my ill, then maybe He would rein in my child, if only I were better, if only I were like so and so. On the one hand, there's pride: "Look what I have accomplished. Look how God has blessed me." On the other hand there is despair: "Who am I? What good am I? Obviously, God wouldn't do anything with the likes of me. Obviously, my prayers go nowhere. Obviously, I might as well give up on myself, hope to get in by the skin of my teeth, because I'm just an ordinary peasant, full of ambiguity, light and darkness, good and evil." Both the pride and the despair are out of place, because the point is not what we can accomplish in the Kingdom of God for the purposes of God. The biblical story is about what God does through us, around us, in spite of us – all to His glory and according to His purposes of Grace, which He established before the foundations of the world. The Bible is God's Story, and we and Abraham and Jacob and David and Peter and Paul and Mary and Rahab and Ruth are just all the minor characters caught up in this great drama that is God's story. So, let's look at one of these biblical characters who can teach us a lesson or two, to encourage us in our own pilgrimage of faith - Jacob. Jacob is the story of God's conquest of a wheeler-dealer. I might have entitled it, "The Con Artist of the Covenant." Jacob is about as unsavory as the mess of © Grand Valley State University �Jacob: The Conquest of a Wheeler-Dealer Richard A. Rhem Page 3   pottage he cooked up was savory. Jacob is the kind of guy you hope never moves next door. He's the kind of guy you hope never comes home dating your daughter. He's the kind of guy who puts you on your guard, turns you off and raises suspicions that he can never be trusted. Jacob is one of the Patriarchs! We pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, who gave his name to that Old Testament people. Jacob – what a person on whom to found a nation that was supposed to be the special instrument in the hand of God for the effecting of His purposes. Think about it for a moment. Think about how ridiculous it is - Jacob. Who would have chosen Jacob? Who would have trusted Jacob with anything? Who would even have wanted to be identified with one like Jacob? If I were God, I could have made a better choice than that. Give me somebody who is trustworthy, somebody who is stable, someone who has unquestioned integrity and tested authenticity. If I'm going to identify my cause with somebody, I want that person to be of sterling character - like Peter! Or John. Certainly not Jacob. I don't really want him on my team. For one thing, he'll be after my job! And for another thing, he'll probably be draining off your capital gains. No, Lord, You could do a lot better than Jacob. What are You doing with Jacob, when there's Esau! Now, who wouldn't like Esau? They are twins, and already in the beginning there is the clue that this is not an ordinary story. Rebecca had a very difficult pregnancy. That's how rotten Jacob is. He began kicking before he was born. They called him Jacob, which meant "heel," which is maybe because, so the story goes, he reached out and got Esau's heel, as Esau was being born ahead of him. But it's also possible in that translation that he was named heel because he was a kicker and a screamer. And the word has to do with heel; maybe we associate heel with deceiver, supplanter, because this guy was a con-artist, a conniver, a manipulator, a liar and a cheat. Rebecca said, "I don't know if I'm going to make nine months or not. I'm going to die!" And there was an announcement, a prophecy. Two nations in your womb, two peoples, going their own ways from birth! One shall be stronger than the other; the older shall be servant to the younger. Where did it come from? Who heard it? There was something strange about those two children already in the womb, and what is the biblical story pointing to? Isn't it pointing to the fact that when it comes to the purposes of God, things are not left to chance or to accident, but that in and through the things that happen in the natural course of events there is already a word spoken by God that reflects an eternal purpose of God that God is about something in this world and history. I don't know why Jacob was chosen. Frankly, I'd rather have Esau in my tent. But just as in the case of Isaac, the child of promise who came to Abraham and to Sarah who was barren, by the promise of God so here it is repeated. Rebecca was barren. Why? Because, just in case the point was missed in the previous generation, God will establish it again in the third generation that there is to be © Grand Valley State University �Jacob: The Conquest of a Wheeler-Dealer Richard A. Rhem Page 4   an heir, the chosen one who will carry on this purpose of God spoken to Abraham. It will not be through fleshly desire or Isaac and Rebecca, but because God said, "I will open the womb. I will give a child of promise." That is pretty heavy, but that is what this story is telling us. Let's follow Jacob through for a moment. Next scene, Momma's boy close to the tent, is cooking up a bowl of soup. Esau comes in from the field, hungry. The firstborn, the rightful heir to the rights of the firstborn, says, "Give me a bowl of soup." Jacob says, "You like the soup? Smells good, eh? You want a bowl of soul, Esau? Give me your birthright." Birthright. Spiritual blessing. Intangible goods. Something for the future. Esau says, "Man, if I don't get that bowl of soup, I won't have a future. Give me a bowl of soup and you can have the birthright." Well, not too commendatory, Esau, but I can identify with that. How many of us haven't preferred a present, tangible gift rather than a future spiritual blessing? And then, having moved into position at that point, having taken advantage of a brother in his vulnerability, we get that most dastardly of all scenes where he tricks his old, blind father and robs Esau of the blessing. Now, if this is a good, moralistic sermon – I mean a good, moralistic story like most sermons and most Sunday School lessons – then we would say, "Jacob did this and now Esau's angry and Rebecca's worried for Jacob's life, and so she is going to send him away and now he's going to get his. Be sure your sins will find you out. The way of the transgressor is hard." Right? Wrong! Jacob goes off into the wilderness, fleeing for his life. He lies down in the wilderness alone, guilty, afraid, and has a nightmare. Right? Wrong! He falls asleep like a baby and sees a ladder with angels going up and down and Almighty God saying, "You're my boy. I love you, and I'm going to be with you and I'm going to protect you and I'm going to bring you home." Just exactly what we said, isn't it? Be sure your sins will find you out. The way of the transgressor is hard. This liar, cheat and deceiver goes off in the wilderness with a whole burden of guilt, enough to spread over the whole world, and what happens? He gets a marvelous revelation of a gracious God. Well, the Bible story could make it easier for us, couldn't it? I could say at this point, "Go thou and do likewise," but that wouldn't exactly be the point, would it? But, listen to this point. It's not a story about human behavior and human conduct. The Bible's not a story about, "Be good and you will be blessed, and be bad and you will suffer." The story of the Bible is not about the little moralisms and legalisms that either make us proud of our righteousness or scared of our unrighteousness. The story is about God Who does something in the world through us, around us, in spite of us, according to His own purpose and His own good pleasure and His own sovereign Grace. © Grand Valley State University �Jacob: The Conquest of a Wheeler-Dealer Richard A. Rhem Page 5   Jacob is no stained glass saint. He's a miserable and abominable cheat and deceiver, the last person on earth who ought to see a revelation like that, which doesn't point to the fickleness of God, but to the grace of God Who says, "I chose you and I've got ahold of you and I'm going to stick with you and I'll protect you and I will effect everything I have said that I will effect through you because I am God." I like that kind of God, really. He blows my mind. He shatters all of our little pedestrian categories. He's a God Who is about something in this world that is greater than any one of us and transcends all of our strengths and all of our weaknesses, Who uses us in spite of ourselves, in our highs and in our lows, Who never gives us reason to be proud. "Let him that boasteth, boast in the Lord," said Paul. After he had said that God had called the things that are despised, the things that are not, in order to effect His purposes, he concluded, "Let him that boasts, boast of the Lord." No room for human pride, and no room for human despair, for there is no one, no one so wicked and raunchy, no one so meanspirited but what he can be the instrument of the Eternal God for the effecting of His purposes for the glory of His name. Now, that reduces us to where we ought to be reduced - to a position of humility before the Sovereign God Who was doing something in this world. Blessed be His name, and He'll do it with the likes of us - you and me, mixed bags that we are, filled with ambiguity, bubbling with enthusiasm, motivated by high ideals, falling flat on our faces, fickle and feeble, dedicated one moment, dry as a bone the next, unsteady, unfaithful, flawed and fallible. Blessed be His name, Who takes clay like this and does His thing! Well, Jacob went to Laban, got into real conflict there with his father-in-law. He met his match. They really drained all their mutual energy trying to outfox one another. And Laban was pretty good at it, but God was with Jacob, and when they finally parted, Jacob took Laban's daughters, his grandchildren, and his flocks and fled, Laban coming after him. God said to Laban, "Don't you touch him." And when they finally did part, after Laban had caught up with him, they parted with what I once thought was a nice benediction. Did any of you ever go to Junior Christian Endeavor? That was a youth organization a hundred years ago when I was young. We closed the meetings every week with a Mizpah Benediction. "The Lord watch between me and thee, while we are absent one from another." I thought that was so marvelous. Isn't that marvelous? We could all say it, couldn't we? Every Sunday. "The Lord watch between me and thee, while we are absent, one from another." I always had a warm, cozy feeling about that benediction, but you know what it really meant? That was what Laban proposed to Jacob. He said, "The Lord watch between me and thee while we are absent one from the other because you've ripped me off time and time again, and I don't want you to come near me again!" That's Jacob. © Grand Valley State University �Jacob: The Conquest of a Wheeler-Dealer Richard A. Rhem Page 6   Finally, he comes to the great crisis in his life. He struggles all night alone the day before he's going to meet Esau and something good happened there. If you go home and read that story, you will find a real prayer of a man who was afraid and vulnerable. I think God was eventually getting through to Jacob. I think he was finally at a point where he knew that he couldn't always connive his way through all of his life, and he offered a beautiful prayer and made all the preparations he could, and then, before he met Esau, he was encountered by a man who wrestled with him all the night. It's a very mysterious story. We must assume that it was a wrestling with God, not that God is a man or that God is a physical being, but however that story is to be conceived, it is obviously the point at which Jacob came to terms with the Sovereign God Who wrestled with him and allowed him to hold on to Him all night long, but when push came to shove, with a touch, crippled him. And old Jacob went off into the rising sun that morning limping, and I think that God finally conquered that wheeler-dealer. Although, even after he meets Esau and Esau beautifully forgives him, embraces him, kisses him, invites him to come along, I'm still not sure Jacob was playing it straight. He said, "Ah, no, Esau, look, I've got a lot of animals that can only move along slowly, and I've got these little children and you go ahead, Esau. Thanks a lot, but go ahead." ("Get out of here, Esau. Leave me alone!") So, I'm not sure, even at the end... But you see, wouldn't it be nice if I could say, "Ah, now finally God had His way with Jacob and here's Jacob, the saint. Put him back into stained glass." And then I've got to say to you, "It's not that nice." God conquered him. God did His thing with him. Jacob trusted Him. Jacob loved Him. And Jacob never did amount to much to his dying day. He's no hero, friends, just a person God used. I wonder why God sometimes - seems like all the time - chooses the weak and despised things of this world, the things that are not, to confound the things that are. Maybe it is so that finally we will learn the lesson that all is of Grace, all is of God, all is gift. And all we can do is, in the ambiguity of our own muddy way, cast ourselves on His mercy and wait on the Lord. Let us pray. Father, we might ordinarily, in ordinary days and in ordinary church services, and in ordinary messages, conclude by saying, "What a man was Jacob! Help us to be like him." But today we've seen another face of Jacob who saw Your face, and so we can only say, "Lord, we are like him. We're schemers and connivers and manipulators and we're cheats. We fudge the truth; we hedge the facts. We take things into our own hands, we try to manage and control, and we try to put the best face on everything that we do and the persons that we are, and underneath, we're Jacob all the way." And so, we don't pray, "Make us like him." We acknowledge that we are. We pray, "Reveal Yourself to us as You did to him. Say to us, 'I will be with you. I will protect you. I will bring you home.'" And then, © Grand Valley State University �Jacob: The Conquest of a Wheeler-Dealer Richard A. Rhem Page 7   Father, from lisping lips and divided lives, we will praise you with all we have. Through Jesus Christ, our Lord, Amen. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XXI Series No Stained Glass Saints Scripture Text Genesis 32:24, 28 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19861012 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-10-12 Title A name given to the resource Jacob: The Conquest of a Wheeler-Dealer Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on October 12, 1986 entitled "Jacob: The Conquest of a Wheeler-Dealer", as part of the series "No Stained Glass Saints", on the occasion of Pentecost XXI, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Genesis 32:24, 28. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Covenant God of Grace Hebrew Scriptures Jacob https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6591c1de3f5b6c1ca07088f0e492532.m4v 741bd196de955df96ff611b419cb7d74 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/17d8d55a5f744e39bd29ca47c7a700e9.pdf 8d668df6c69e160b4ab58b55be52eeb5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Art Jacobs Disc one: (1:06:00) Disc two: (00:59:08) Disc one (1:00) Growing up in Michigan • • • • There was a lady that lived at the end of the road that gave music lessons He was interested in music and attended music lessons His father bought a general store in Morengo, MI He attended school in Morengo and had to walk a mile every day for school (3:00) The School House • • • • • The school held all grades through eighth He walked to school with his sister every day He remembers there were lots of windows in the school The school had a modern bathroom, while most buildings at the time were using outhouses They burned wood to heat the building (5:00) Morengo, MI • • • • • • • His mother was the post-master in this town He loved to go to his father’s store after school and get treats One time an alcoholic broke into the store in the middle of the night and drank a bunch of anti-freeze; he died There was a large room upstairs where they held dances They went bob-sledding in the winter There was a Native American family in the neighborhood and Art thought it was so cool that one of their sons could catch fish with his bare hands His parents sold the store in 1928 and used the money to move to Battle Creek and buy a gas station (9:00) The Gas Station • There was a really bad winter one year and his father had to work all through it • His father got a bad cold, which turned into pneumonia • His father passed away shortly after because penicillin had not been in use yet • His father died when he was six • His family then went through a series of moves, but his mom was able to keep the family together (10:28)1932: The Depression �• • • • • His mom only received 10% of the total money they had saved in the bank The depression wiped out all of their savings His sister helped the family making the most money at seventeen years old His mother worked as a seamstress His mom cooked very well (12:30) His Older Brother • He moved out early because he got married • His brother bought a new 1932 Ford Model A Roadster with a rumble seat (15:00) News from Europe in the 30s • He was young at the time and his interests were elsewhere • He does remember the Hindenburg explosion • There was no television for the news • The ship had left Germany for New Jersey • It blew up in an instance; it was gone in seconds • It was the first real disaster that left an impression on him (17:30) His Sister Gets Married • Art had to drop out of school in 1939 to go to work • His mother was alone and needed help with money (18:05) Pearl Harbor • He was at a friend’s house when he heard the news • He had been working at Eaton Manufacturing, in charge of blueprints when he was drafted for the war • It was a busy company because it was making valves for airplanes • To get his diploma, he went to summer school • He needed to take a test for the Navy Air Corps • His teacher was Mr. Van Andel, whose son was in the Naval Air Corps • He received A’s in his classes and passed them in weeks so he was able to get his diploma (21:25) September 30, 1943 • Art was called to active duty at the Wayne Hotel in Detroit • There were 435 cadets assembled in Detroit • Of 435, only 32 graduated with wings • Art graduated with wings (22:35) First Days in the Naval Air Corps • He went to Wesleyan University in Ohio • He continued his education to prepare to be a pilot in the Navy, which require more education and time than an Army pilot would need because they had to learn to fly off ships �• • They had to learn water, land, and celestial navigation as well as how to be a gunner, navigator and a pilot Training in the Army took 9 months while training in the Navy took 18 months (25:30) California • They were sent to the US Naval Air Station in Livermore • They were to learn advanced flying and were then sent to Corpus Christi Texas for the second largest Naval Air Station in the US • In July of 1944, he received his gold wings as a Naval Air Pilot • The rest of the 435 cadets had been washed out or re-assigned to another area • He then received a 30 day leave for vacation time off (28:20) Marriage • Art married his high school girlfriend on July 30th, 1944 • “I was one hot tamale.” • He then went to Atlanta for Instrument Flight Instructor School because his past instructor for Instrument Flying recommended him for the position • His wife went with him to Atlanta • They lived off base where he completed his instructions • His first naval assignment was in Beeville, Texas where he taught Flight Training School for cadets • They lived in a nice unit and he has good memories (31:00) Waldron Field Corpus Christi • He was in Advanced Fighter Pilot school teaching advanced flight tactics • He was even assigned his own unit • He eventually became the oldest instructor at Waldron Field (32:35) Tour of Duty Expires • He received orders to report to Seattle to board the Saratoga and his wife went back home to Battle Creek • D-Day occurred two days before he was supposed to ship off and his orders were cancelled • He then continued to train cadets • He was once again ordered to report to Seattle in August, and again his orders were cancelled two days before he left because they had dropped the bomb in Hiroshima (34:25) Overseas • He went on vacation with his discharge bonus for training so many; they went to Aruba and the Caribbean • Yet the Navy really discharges a certified pilot because it costs them $80,000.00 to train someone • He really just received a Release from Active Duty Certificate; he was still required to participate in reserve training �(36:25) Reserve Training in Battle Creek, Michigan • He became a “weekend warrior” • Every other weekend their unit was at Groes Field in Battle Creek, working through Friday, Saturday, and Sunday • Art became the Executive Officer of his unit, which is second in command • They were able to fly a lot of nice airplanes (38:00) Getting Into Trouble • “the more you fly, the more careless you get;” people become over-confident • Art had gotten a job as a district manager in Ohio • He had been home to see his relatives on the weekend • It was the fourth of July and there were thousands of people at the Battle Creek Fair while they were staying with their in-laws • He was on his way home when some guy was taunting him and caused him to fly too close to Bailey Park • The state police got the numbers off his plane and he got in trouble with the CEO for flying below 1500 feet in a congested area, for doing acrobatics over a congested area, and for doing acrobatics in a commercial flight lane • He had to report to the FAA guy I the tower, who also lived in Freemont, Ohio • He had to lay his hand on a Navy Regulation book and swear to never fly that way again in the future (45:45) 1954 Reduction in Force • The reserve weekend warrior program was abolished and he was just two years away from receiving his retirement pay • He was discharged early so he did not receive any retirement pay • He believes that every male should join the service to become a better man and to get straightened out • He was in the Navy for more than fourteen years and was full Lieutenant when he was done, which is equivalent to being a captain in the Army (48:20) A Member of the Masons • He was 27 years old when he joined the masons • He was good friends with a guy who was part of the Battle creek Lodge and he talked about the Masons a lot, but he was still in the reserves at the time • Art became part of the Bedford Lodge and also joined the Scottish Right, in which he became the Commander in Chief in Grand Rapids and received his 33rd degree • He was also part of the Red Cross and a life member of the Eastern Star (55:55) His Wife During the Service • She was always with him while he was in the service and she worked for Wolverine Insurance Company • She was also a nurse’s aide at Fort Custer; “she is a natural born care taker” • Art has a son and a daughter, four grandchildren, and ten great grandchildren (56:45)The Masonic Pathway �• • He had always been interested in music and carpentry Art had three heart attacks after his children moved out of the house (1:00:00) The Home • He and his wife moved to a home in 1999 and it was the best decision they had ever made • They both really enjoy living there and have made lots of friends (1:00:35) How the Service Has Influenced His Life • It taught him the principles of good living • The service left a great influence on Art and he has benefitted endlessly throughout his life • He was taught how to manage his problems • Art is very grateful to the Navy and to the Masonic Order Disc two (1:25) The Roaring Twenties • “They weren’t roaring for me.” • His sister had a good job and his mom was a seamstress • Art played lots of sports like basketball and baseball • His mom was steadily employed and never remarried when his father died • The only good memory he has of his dad is him laying in a casket with his big Masonic ring (5:20) The Stock Crash • His mom lost 90% of their money through the bank, the prohibition was in effect at the time and his dad always brewed his own beer (7:35) The Hindenburg Crash • It was the biggest, lighter than air ship ever (9:15) Meeting famous Baseball Players • They taught him how to throw a curve ball • At the time, he did not think to ask for their autographs (10:30) Tobacco Experience • He tried some chewing tobacco because he had seen baseball players chewing it; he tried it and it gave him a buzz and then he fell out of a tree house • Art has never tried tobacco again (11:45) Playing Stick Hockey • Art played stick hockey in his backyard, but without ice or a puck • Instead they used a carnation milk can for a puck • Once he was hit in the face and lost a tooth �(12:55) Cars • His mom did not drive • Art’s brother worked for a coach company in Battle Creek • Street cars disappeared from Battle Creek around 1935 (17:00) His Great-Great Grandmother • She was a famous lady from England who opened a spiritual camp in Vicksburg • She was a doctor who was known for her music and she played for three different presidents at the White House • She was also a spiritual advisor to President Lincoln • Charlie and Lewis were her sons and they were both Civil War veterans • Art’s grandmother received pension from them being in the Civil War (21:15) Charlie • Charlie “was a bit of a rogue.” • He wrote checks in his moms name and she prosecuted him for that • He then went to Jackson prison and was very upset about that • He killed himself in prison by ingesting sulfur (24:00) Lewis • He owned a newspaper in Vicksburg called the Union • He was a renown speaker and traveled a lot (25:00) Joseph • Joseph was his great-great grandmother’s husband • He was a Jew, also from England, who allegedly owned his own island (27:15) The 30s • In 1938 his sister got married and at the age of sixteen he had to drop out of school and work to support his mother • He only went to high school through the eleventh grade • Yet without a diploma he could not join the Air Corps of the Navy, so he had to go back to take classes in the summer • His mom then moved in with his sister when she had a baby and she was able to help to take care of the baby since his sister and her husband both worked (31:40) His Mother Dies • She died when she was 63 years old, yet she had never been sick • She died out of nowhere while she was giving his sister’s baby a bath on the kitchen table • The baby had been on the table alone for about two hours before his sister and her husband came home from work (34:25) The 30s �• • • • • His family did not own a car and they traveled by bus At the age of 16 he ran away and went to California on a freight train Art lived in hobo camps and was away from home for eight months He had left with his brother’s wives cousin They washed windows at hotels and begged for food (40:38) Art Comes Home • He was like a celebrity in high school for running away to California • He had a good time in California • His mom was not mad at him when he came home; his sister and her were both happy to see him again (45:00) The Navy • In the Navy he learned how to be a real man (45:50) Masonry • He always had that picture of his father with his huge Masonic ring stuck in his head • Art lived in the jurisdiction of Bedford and on September 3, 1948 he became a Master Mason • He went through the program very quickly and finished in two months (51:20) He was a commander of the Scottish Right (51:50) He helped in the Red Cross and was a member of the Eastern Star � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JacobsA Title A name given to the resource Jacobs, Art (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jacobs, Art Description An account of the resource Art Jacobs joined the Naval Air Corps in the 1930s. He was one of only 32 men that graduated with wings out of the original 435 men. He stayed in the Navy for a long time and eventually taught other young men advanced air fighting tactics. While he was called out to fight in World War twice, in both times his orders eventually were cancelled before he was actually shipped out. Art Had a rough childhood because his father died when he was only six and then he and his siblings had to help support their mother. Art enjoyed being in the Navy and believes that every male should serve at one point in their life. After life in the Navy, Art also became part of the Masons, the Red Cross, and the Eastern Star. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-11-17 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e6c9545bbce93ff840cf0d2bf5d701e.jpg 1f2780f5a7b3513732d414fa8f3eb6e4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JacobsenAllvar Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Jacobsen, Allvar Description An account of the resource Allvar Jacobsen, Sociology Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3c505f6863f004afd609f583bd32caa1.pdf 5bb9124d21c881e7eacf778241323098 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jacqueline Decker Interviewer(s): Emma Jack Supervising Faculty: Danielle Lake Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: October 26, 2011 Runtime: 01:08:05 Biography and Description Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband’s job at Gerber, while being a sports journalist for the Grand Rapids press. After several years she felt a calling to return to school and become a teacher. On July 18th, 1989, her first [adopted] child Zachary Michael was born. She and her family then moved to Rockford to start her new job as a teacher. On July 22, 1991, her second [adopted] child Andrea Lin was born. On August 16th, 1992 her last [biological] child Samantha Louise was born. She has been an English teacher at Rockford High School for 20+ years. She has also provided a home for several pugs over the years, those now being Molly (8 years old) and Crissy (11 years old). Transcript JACK: Hi, my name is Emma Jack and I’m here today with: Brooke Davis, Brittany Renninger, Kevin, Samantha Decker; and we are going to be speaking with Jackie Dekker today at GVSU. We are here today to talk about your experiences with education in west Michigan. DECKER: How are you today? JACK: I’m great, how are you? DECKER: I’m great, thanks JACK: So tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. Page 1 �DECKER: My name is Jackie Decker I was born in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids on 3/2/59. My parents were college sweethearts form Comstock park, I have two brothers one 9 years older, one 5 years older, from Comstock park and Byron center respectively. JACK: What was it like to grow up in west Michigan? DECKER: It was a typical 60’s lifestyle. Two parent homes and my elementary was just a neighborhood school until 4th grade and then a bunch of kids were bused in. 456 grade were an integrated school. Middle school was typical only two families that weren’t Caucasian. One family was black, and one family was Asian. I went to Creston high school, which was pretty much considered an inner city high school, which was 2/3 of the neighborhood. JACK:x What made you decide to stay in west Michigan? DECKER: I didn’t think I would because Grand Rapids was a dying town when growing up, and I wanted to move as far away as possible. But once your from west Michigan its hard to get away. I currently live in Rockford with surprisingly a lot of my classmates from Creston High school. I believe a lot of people like west Michigan not only for the lakes, which are great. It has changed a lot since the 50’s 60’s lifestyles but the same family values that I grew to appreciate are still intertwined in society. JACK:x How would you describe your own identity? If you were to describe yourself to someone else how would you describe yourself? DECKER: I grew up congregational, I now go to a Methodist church, but I could probably go to any Christian church and feel good about myself while doing so. I have strong family values, I like it when people get married and have children and family life. I wouldn’t discriminate against people who don’t live that way but I still have some of those same strong family values. Very strong work ethic put forth the very best effort I can. Its still surprising that some people can get away with what they can by doing so little work. JACK: How would you describe your identity in the school system? DECKER: Probably in the same way. I usually don’t leave the school until about 4:30 compared to some others who take off right after class, etc. They know that I participate in students’ athletic events, speaking at special events (fellowship Christian athletes). I have the gay/straight association in my classes. Most kids would say that I’m a very challenging teacher because I make them work hard but at the same time they would consider it a safe haven. JACK: What do you teach? DECKER: I teach honors English 10 and regular English 11. JACK: Can you explain a little more about the fellowship Christian athletes? DECKER: It’s not always athletes; we have a huge contingent of students in the school who really go to a Baptist church. A huge mega Baptist church, and a lot of them start and have gotten involved in that. They get together pray. We get together talk and ask how I got into teaching, and I felt led to go into Page 2 �teaching. They meet on wed and I have two groups of kids that meet in my room on Mondays. On Fridays about 20 kids come in and sing praise songs. JACK: So you really have open doors to any organization. DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Would there be any kind of organization you’d keep your door closed to? DECKER: The anime club, because I don’t know how to draw hahaha just kidding JACK: Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adult hood where you felt you were treated differently because of your profession or your gender? DECKER: I would say even though there are more female teachers in our school system at Rockford it is a male dominated school system. The principal at my building is a female, and most buildings have female in some capacity in a leader figure. JACK: How would you describe the differences between men and women in the school system? DECKER: Men get away with so much more than women. If I swore at children or made a racist joke I would get in a lot more trouble than a guy would get in trouble for. JACK: Did your school system have a male superintendent or a higher up male personnel? DECKER: We never had a female in any of those higher positions, we have a superintendent and two assistant superintendents, both male. People are almost fearful to speak out a lot with these issues. JACK: So its something that has been noticed in your community? DECKER: Our school board is eclectic. But any time someone runs for the school board they all say they’re going to make changes, but they just ultimately do what the superintendents want them to do. JACK: Do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things you want to do in your classroom? DECKER: It doesn’t inhibit me from doing things within my classroom for the most part. I’m not a buddybuddy with the principal. Him and the other teachers know what I stand for and they know I’m doing a good job so they leave me alone. I’m in a hallway with only one other teacher. JACK: I know your in a system where all the other English teachers are all male, do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things that you wish you could do, do you feel intimidated? DECKER: No not really. They’re big sci-fi fans so they want to read all these sci-fi books, but I’m not afraid of them at all. This past year some of them honored me for teaching and said I really deserved it. In there own way they have there own little boys club too. JACK: But they respect you? DECKER: Absolutely, I don’t have that at all from any of the men in our department. Page 3 �JACK: Is it true that you did not start your career in education? DECKER: Nope I started my career as a sports reporter for the Grand Rapids press covering high school sports. JACK: What do you think led you to become a teacher from that? DECKER: I just got a feeling that god wanted me to be working with high school students in a different way. When I was in high school I didn’t like the other students because I had brothers that were much older and parents who were much older. I thought they were kind of stupid and did dumb things. I kind of grew up old. I felt that there was need there and this will be my 22nd year. JACK: Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the treatment of diverse individuals in society? DECKER: I had an uncle who he really had a negative view of people that were diverse. He said a derogatory statement at the table, and I ended up standing up and leaving because I was really mad. He had a very negative view of blacks. I had a great 5th and 6th grade teacher, he really made an impact on me on how these people are just different than I am with really no difference. About 5 years after i moved onto high school he became a defense attorney in grand rapids and defended the people who couldn’t get anyone else to defend them, he really changed the way I look at people. JACK: Have you kept in contact with him? DECKER: I used to seem him at road races (we were both runners.) I haven’t seen him in a long while, but every now and then there’ll be case where nobody wants it and he’ll swoop in and take it on. He is a champion for the underdogs and different races. He really changed my life. JACK: Would you say he’s a big impact on how you treat students today? DECKER: I would say so. Just the way he looked at people, I look at people differently because of that. My parents had prejudices, but they didn’t have mean prejudices, they just had prejudices born on ignorance and I wouldn’t say that they were like my uncle. But they were prejudice. One young man asked me out on a date that happened to be black, and I said it wasn’t a very good idea because of the fact that neither of our parents were going to think that it was a good idea. But I would say that Mr. Dorian? Changed my view of things. JACK: Is it difficult for you now to come into a society where everything is so mixed and you have to be accepting? DECKER: No. Teaching has been a great place for me to be. I see all different types of students that really open my eyes to how diverse people can be. I have grown to be accepting of these students, because they’re great kids. I have a daughter (not Sam) that came home a month or so ago with a pierced eyebrow and now kids are piercing their ears, and various other facial parts. We are adoptive parents. Our son was adopted when he was 2 days old from Tacoma Washington. He’s Caucasian. Our daughter Andrea’s birth mom is 100% Vietnamese, and she was a student at Calvin college. She gave birth to Page 4 �Andrea and now she is a part of our family. My mom lost a brother, he was in a control tower on a naval vessel, and a kamikaze hit the control tower so she had a total distrust of people who were Asian. In 9th grade my dad had surgery and his doctor who saved his life was Asian. I think that was all healing and when our daughter Andrea was born we asked “are you going to be able to love an Asian child?” and she said this may be really good for me. Unfortunately she only lived to when Andrea was 2 and Sam was 1. She didn’t get a chance to really meet them. I’m very accepting to everyone. I’ll admit that some people who make decision like gauging out their ears I think to myself “woa, can you sew that back together?” But overall I have to be very accepting with the position that I’m in. (starting at minute 14)-----and Sam was one so…she didn’t get a chance but I am very accepting of—but, I ya know, people have big holes in their ears I admit and it’s like, woah, can you cut that thing off and sew it back together? (laughs) But I have to be very accepting in the position that I am in. JACK: Would you say that there are still some teachers today even in your school system that are not very accepting of those students? DECKER: Absolutely. And the kids know. The kids know who cares about them and who’s accepting and not and I would say one of the issues, one of the issues that is still fairly big, probably, is kids in Rockford who are gay. You know? And kids—most of them just try to fly under the radar. They just—I mean I, ya know, fly under the radar. And we have the Gay, Straight Association and stuff like that, but there’s only about seven kids who go to that. You know, not that many kids go but they find acceptance there—but, ya know, I—and I know that, you know, there are a lot of jokes made and things like that and I always feel for those kids. JACK: Do you feel that their studies suffer because--? DECKER: Oh yeah, I’m sure they—they’re always just trying very hard not to be gay—to show that they’re gay. JACK: So you think that there is a lot of stress there that is taking away from what they could be because they’re just trying not to be something that society doesn’t want them to be? DECKER: They don’t want to be noticed. They really don’t want to be noticed. So I would say yeah, absolutely that’s stressful. They don’t want to go to school—and, and these aren’t even the kids who have identifies themselves as gay. They are just, just trying to get out of there as quietly as possible. And then there are other kids that are really embraced—the king, they boy who was just nominated homecoming king is gay. And a couple years ago—a couple years was? Yeah. So it’s not like the student body is not accepting. The student body is fairly accepting—you know, overall—I think they’re even more worried about some of the teachers not being accepting. It’s still West Michigan, conservative West Michigan. So yeah—but the student body will vote for 12 guys [for homecoming court] and pick the guy who is gay for their king and he’s pretty accepting. JACK: Do, like, some of the teachers openly, like, make statements that are derogatory to them? --or so they know which—or is it making the student uncomfortable if they were in their class? Page 5 �DECKER: I—I think people will try to be very politically correct—I think they just let kids say things that, you know I would say, “hey, don’t say that.” Um…um and you know, I think that’s more—I think that kids, um, it’s not that teachers necessarily will say things, um, ‘cause they’ve been trained not to say anything that’s not politically correct. But I think they’ll let the kids get away with things. JACK: Do you feel that you are trying to stand up for the kids because some teachers won’t? Like you said, some teachers will allow students to say things or let students get away with things, but do you feel that you try to go out of your way to help these students because your faculty members don’t? DECKER: Probably—it’s funny that, you know, that I’m going to talk at an FCA, but then you’ve got GSA, and in—in some ways—and I’m—I’m thinking that I might talk to the FCA about—Fellowship of Christian athletes—about hey, love everybody. You know, don’t just love the kids who go to your church, and that’s easy to do, but to love everybody, you know. Really, how are you reaching out to the handicap kids in our building? We had a girl last year who was blind—and I don’t think there were very many people who even said hi to her and it’s like, you know she was a really really smart girl and very nice and I just think that, um, I just want—I just think—I guess I’ve always just kind of loved people and—and want them to feel safe. I think that’s the best way to put it. JACK: Have you experienced things that—where there has been, say, a specific situation where there has been discrimination against a student that you have been witness to? DECKER: Particularly, I don’t think so. I haven’t, like, seen anybody get beaten up. I haven’t seen anybody, um—we are a—at Rockford High School, I brought something with me that said that…we have 1881 white kids in nine through twelve. We have 40 Hispanic, 39 black or African American, 21 Asian, three American Indian-Alaskan, and then I think we have 2 Hawaiian or Pacific Island. So it’s really a white school and I—I haven’t seen, like, any of the white kids picking on the black kids or the Hispanic kids…but over the course of the years I think the kids have become more politically correct too—I haven’t seen that, haven’t necessarily seen anyone pick on anyone who is gay, or Asian, or anything else like that—haven’t seen anyone pick on anything like that but you know, I just—I want to make sure that my room is a pace where anyone can come in and feel safe. So I haven’t seen any particular incidents where kids were like, you know, I mean like I said, we have a king who is gay—people aren’t going to boo.—they’re not going to boo or anything they’re very polite…it’s a polite community. JACK: So would you say that’s changed over the years? We’ve become—that our society has become more tolerant towards them? DECKER: Oh yeah—you’re generation is so much more tolerant than ten years ago or twenty years ago when I first started teaching—I’m more tolerant. I would’ve let those jokes go twenty years ago, I admit it. And you know—and my family they used to make—there used to be, like, racial jokes or stuff like that and I would—I—it’s only as an adult and the more I’ve worked in the school system that I’ve become more open minded myself, you know? But I don’t know, your generation’s a whole lot different than my generation was—and I went to a school that was integrated…but there were fights sometimes and that—there wasn’t a lack of safety but it wasn’t—there was always a lack of ignorance. I don’t think you’re so ignorant of each other anymore. And I push not being ignorant of each other—okay so it’s like, Page 6 �so, so that person’s black? He’s got more pigment—we’re always trying to get tan (laughs) I mean really? Why does this matter? You know? So, I guess I think your generation is a ton more tolerant. I’ve seen a lot of change—Rockford when I first started was class size of about 350. And my *first+ daughter’s class was 680. I think this year we only have 600, but, you know, when you go from 350 who all grow up on farms around Rockford and the few people who live in downtown Rockford, um, and then all-asudden you start bringing in this diversity of economics …we have some really really rich people there and some really really poor people and we have a lot of people in the middle—we have school of choice—we just have to be very flexible. JACK: Do you think that a lot of the different racial or ethnic groups kind of clump together? Is there a lot of mixture with the students? DECKER: There’s a lot of mixture—they don’t have a choice. There are only 39 black students in the school? They can’t all just hang out with black kids. I mean, truly, they don’t—and Hispanic—I’m thinking really? We have 4000—you can’t tell! Everybody mixes. I mean my one daughter’s Asian—she really grew up white. You know it wasn’t like there was a bunch of Asian kids to hang out. So I think they have no choice—they have to—when—as I was telling my friend when we had dinner, kids who come in who are black, if they come in from outside the community, they may act like they’re inner-city for about a year and then they’re Rockford. Everybody just mixes…I don’t think that’s the big deal. It used to be a big deal but it’s not a big deal anymore. JACK: What kinds of organizations are available for kids at Rockford that really promote diversity within the student body? DECKER: We have a diversity club, but I don’t know if it’s met at all this year. Then I said, we have GSA, Gay-Straight Association?—or I think its Alliance—I think that’s what it is. Um…and then like I said, the anime club which sometimes will get, like, your skaters and people like that—but, um, I mean— they’re—and we have FCA and we have chess club and eco club and stuff like that so there are a lot of different clubs—but as far as diversity we just have the one diversity club. So…there isn’t a lot—what else is out there that’s available. JACK: Do you think it’s important for students to really, kind of up that? Or make it better? DECKER: You know, I think that would be probably helpful. I think—umm—the entire student body has been trained with guest speakers and things over the years to kind of look at each other as oh, yeah we’re just all equal. We do a good job of bringing in guest speakers. JACK: I have heard that at Rockford you have to be either really good at sports or really good-looking or really good in the arts or music or something to kind of… I guess, get along there and if you don’t have one of those, you’re going to have a tough time at Rockford. Would you say that that is true? Would you say that it was true and it’s changing now? Do you have any opinion on that subject? DECKER: I think it’s changing now…when you mention sports…or, like we have band…a lot of band kids hang with band kids and a lot of choir people hang with choir people. Um—I think it’s changed a lot though over the years…um I think if kids spend time doing those things in which they have to be good Page 7 �at—it’s just they spend so much time with those people that they become their friends but I think it—I think there’s a pretty decent mix—I don’t think people are necessarily prejudice. When I put groups together I always try to put people of different—you know, groups together but I don’t think it’s as…mmm…. Let’s see but I’m not in it, I’m not in a click, I don’t have to worry about “clicky-ness”. I don’t notice that so much…you may know more about that than I do JACK: How has your faith influenced the way you think about diversity and the way your present yourself in situations? DECKER: Um, you know, what I think that my faith has a lot to do with it because I just grew up when, you know, “Jesus love the little children” everybody, you know, we’re supposed to love each other and do unto others as you would have others do unto you and so i think my faith has a lot to do with it. Not to say that people who don’t have faith wouldn’t have the same attitudes towards people. I think sometimes if kids realize, you know, I’m a Christian, sometimes I think people might go, “oh, well she’s going to be like, judgmental” and things like that and I’m not and then it takes them by surprise and they’re glad about that. And so then I think we get along quite well. JACK: Can you tell us more about your schooling when you were younger and maybe about things that you came across with diversity? DECKER: Well, I went to Aberdine Elementary School …um which was three blocks from my house and as I said, it was just a neighborhood school until fourth grade they—um many kids were bused in—I’m not even sure where they were bused in from, but somewhere else in Grand Rapids. Um, and it was a mixture, it wasn’t just…um…busing in black kids, but it was to integrate the school system and the law said integrate the school system and um, so—you know when you’re a little kid? And kids are kids are kids, you know? You’re not even like, “oh my gosh” you know, it’s not that big of a deal, it’s more what your parents say that you start to notice things. But, um, you know, so I think growing up in that elementary and then—and I went to a junior high that was back to being a neighborhood school, you know, and there was the one Asian family and they were really smart, and there was the one black family. And then we went to the high school and that was very integrated. So, I think that I just realized—and I went on to college and was on teams, you know, I was on track in high school and in middle school and then in college I was on sport—I was on track and cross country and track was a very integrated sport. So, I think I just kind of grew up knowing that, you know—you know we’re all just athletes at that point. So—I don’t think I—but I, you know, there are still a lot of people who still have prejudices and things like that. JACK: Was there anything that stands out to you—I don’t know if you remember—in like, when you were growing up in like, elementary school, you said that you went to a, um, integrated school—was there any, um, like with the adults, like the teachers there, did they have any, like, that they were against it? Being—? DECKER: I think my fourth grade teacher she was – she did not have good control of the unique classroom that we had, she probably had decent control over, you know, when it was all just this whiteneighborhood kids and things like that. When you bring in a different culture, she did not have—she did Page 8 �not have good control over that. But then that fifth and sixth grade teacher that I had—he was a champion for the people—and I know our class was—had some integration in it and so I would say that his influence probably filtered down to some of the other teachers. But sure, there were some teachers who didn’t want to be teaching at an inner-city school. So, Aberdine was one of the farther north elementary schools, and so I think that was a big shock for them and hard to control. In high school, I don’t remember…I mean I do remember a couple fights between kids, but I don’t think the teachers…I don’t remember anything. And we had—we had more------------ non-Caucasian teachers when I graduated in 77 at Creston. We have, we don't have any non-white teachers at Rockford that I can think of in the whole system. We have a couple of security guards who are non-white and we have a pool manager who is non-white. And every teacher in the system, that I can think of is white. That says something. JACK: Is that including like the school board and superintendent and everybody? DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Wow. Do you think that has an effect on the students? DECKER: Absolutely, I think, you know, if I was black and the only people I ever saw at the building were white I think that would make me have to be somewhat white because I don't have anyone from my culture. Although we bring in speaker and stuff we still don't understand each other's cultures so when people come into our school they have to basically become white. JACK: Do you think it would be good for you school system to bring in some diverse teachers? DECKER: Yeah, there's got to be someone who has applied for a position in Rockford, who isn't white, who maybe is in a wheelchair or something you know so that people can say that people who have handicaps are able to have positions and someone who is um Asian. I mean when I was in high school we had some foreign teachers who were in there who didn't quite speak English the same way we did. And I'm just amazed that there is not some rule that says you have to have some diversity. JACK: With who's running the school system now do you think that's going to change? DECKER: If somebody different was running it? JACK: With who you have now. DECKER: O, no, I don't think so. I don't think there will be a push for that. And right now there is a hiring freeze for the most part so no one is hiring anybody. I was hired in with about 30 people in 1991 and we were all white. and... JACK: So even your, I didn't mean to interrupt sorry, your foreign language teachers, they're not like, or your Spanish teachers, they're not like Hispanic or anything like that even? DECKER: No, we do have a Hispanic teacher at our building, Mrs. Shordsma, you know who she is? no, no, no, she teaches social studies. And she was the one who had started up the diversity club, and she is the only Hispanic in our building. Page 9 �JACK: Well we have a Japanese teacher DECKER: O yeah if forgot about her, she teaches English. She struggles but, she's not very good with English but she's a great Japanese teacher. I forgot about Meg. Yeah, other than that but, our German Teacher, he's not German, none of our Spanish teachers are Spanish, the French teachers, they're not French and they are very white. Women, for the most part. JACK: That's really interesting, like for me where I went to school we had at least two out of the three Spanish teachers were Hispanic, they knew the language very fluently. And not to say that your teachers don't know the language fluently. DECKER: Well they don't know it in the same way. JACK: Right, but and the culture. DECKER: Well they can talk about the culture but... JACK: They don't know it. DECKER: They don't know the culture. They've never lived the culture. JACK: Do you think that maybe the teachers and the faculty should kind of join together to bring more diversity, or do you think that it's kind of between a rock and a hard place in that situation? DECKER: We're always, you know, and often we've had meetings that we've had to go to that were about diversity. That's just, well look at us you know, we look around there, if we get the whole staff together from the district, there are probably about 500 teachers, and they're all for the most part like I said, a bunch of white people. Who, most of whom probably grew up in West Michigan. So, um, it would be nice to have diversity but probably, I mean truthfully nobody would push for that. JACK: That's very interesting. DECKER: uh huh JACK: Teaching for the past twenty years have you witnessed changes in diversity being the amount of it within the school and the amount of it becoming more prominent? DECKER: I think school of choice is going to continue to impact a lot of schools. I think Rockford will get more and more diverse, um, I don't want to say clientele which sounds kind of weird, um, but I don't think we will ever, I don't think our district will ever be diverse like Kentwood, or the Forest Hills Northern schools, when, when, people move in from foreign countries like Bosnia and things like that, they are not going to pick Rockford. We don't have the, um, we don't have the manpower to help them learn the language. We have a Spanish Immersion class that started in Kindergarten and now, I think, those kids are up to 8th grade. But those are still white kids learning Spanish. And there actually might be a couple of Hispanic teachers in there. But see I'm not in elementary school, so I haven't seen it. I, I think that school choice makes a difference, but I don't think that we are ever going to become diverse. Like even, my brother's at Comstock Park high school, they have become, that used to be just a middle Page 10 �class white school system. And with the influx of students who are living on Alpine like in York Creek or something like that said it's very diversified, I have a friend I met with tonight that teaches at Sacred Heart Elementary she says that her population went from mostly middle class white people to Hispanic, because the neighborhoods have changed. I don't see that happening at Rockford. I say, that if you talk to me 10 years from now and I'll say we have 59 black students, maybe more, but not, not, it will not become a diverse school system. So, not for a while, I'm not quite sure why maybe there is not jobs out there or something. JACK: Why would people choose Rockford as a school choice? DECKER: Great education. I mean, I talked to somebody last week and he said that you know, we ,we did not, my wife and I were not in private education, we were pretty eerie about putting our kids into a school system and he said I have no complaints with Rockford, the teachers all care about kids and they want them to have a good education so that's why people would want to move to Rockford so I'm just surprised that more people don't come North to Rockford, they just don't. JACK: Do you think it's, um, people aren't choosing that because education isn't as important to people as maybe other things as like sports and stuff like that? DECKER: Well it's a huge sports school though, I mean we have, you know, we joke about how many state championships we've won over the years and things like that. Um, I think that maybe people are afraid maybe that if they come to Rockford they won't be accepted. And I think that, you know, we don't have any choice I mean you're going to accept people because you do. That's just the way the world is, it's a, you know it's a very accepting world so I think maybe that's the reason, a lot of people at Rockford actually has a little bit of a bad reputation because we are so good in sports, kind of like Grand Valley, and um, know that our sports teams, you know everybody is successful and things like that. Um, but I think that people are afraid of the lack of acceptance, but, I don't think, It's harder I think for kids who are poorer and for kids who are of a different race. At Rockford. JACK: Do you think Rockford prepares like most of your seniors who are going off to college, do you think that your school prepares them for the amount of diversity that they are going to experience in college or do you think that? DECKER: I think we try but I don't think we can do that, I mean, my daughter when she left Rockford and went to Michigan State, she said all these Asian people were trying to say hi to her and make conversation with her. Well she couldn't do that because well, you know she speaks English. But she never said it was a shock for her, and Michigan State is a lot more diverse than Grand Valley is, Grand Valley's a lot like Rockford. Um, Michigan State is really diverse but I don't think she's ever said that she's had any problem with anybody of different race. So I don't think, I think she was prepared; we do the best that we can with what we have. JACK: Have there been any landmark events that have changed your opinion dealing with diversity? DECKER: You know, um, landmark as in my own classroom or landmark like something that happened in the nation? Page 11 �JACK: Basically anything that you, I know you discussed more of your family when you were younger but in the nation or... DECKER: You know, landmark events that kind of changed my opinions, really, um, would be the "I have a dream" speech by Dr. Martin Luther King I was probably 8 or 9 at the time, that made quite an impression on me, um, in my classroom I think just, you know, seeing, seeing that it doesn't matter what kids look like they're still kids, um, I think that's made a huge difference in my life. But, as far as like something, you know like, getting or having a black president or something like that will you know, I'm like, it's about time. You know, are you kidding me, you know, slavery ended in 1860s so you know, um, I guess that, you know, the big things for me would have been like my teacher and Dr. Martin Luther King's speech. JACK: Do you have any students that in particular stood out to you or I know over the years you said that your own children have changed your views on teaching, or, how you deal with students in the classroom, anything like that? DECKER: um not necessarily just... Just you know, like I can remember this one guy he had hair longer than I ever dreamed of having and there all the boys were wearing their hair short. I just remember thinking, I mean that changed my way of looking at people with long hair, guys with long hair. And having a student, you know say, you know my dreams for my future are this and knowing that this kid is one of those gay kids who's just trying to slide under the radar so he's making up what he thought I would want to hear, but you know that makes, that changes the way I feel about kids and I just think you know, just being with kids all the time. As I said, kids are kids are kids and I felt that way around the world; people are people are people nobody's my enemy necessarily, um, you know just because they come from a different country doesn't mean they're my enemy, their government might be an enemy of my government but people in Afghanistan are not my enemies. JACK: Would you say your views are constantly changing or your... DECKER: They're improving. JACK: Yeah. DECKER: Growing, yes, I have a lot of years left hopefully to grow but I'm getting better and better. Like I said, when I first started teaching I probably have some of those same prejudices and things like that and now I'm not afraid to say to kids, hey you know, why, you know that doesn't fly here. We don't talk like that, or you need to apologize or you're not going to act that way. And it's not o.k. that it's o.k. with you and him between you to say those kinds of things, it's not o.k. with me. You know, but I say it in a nice way. You know, instead of, I mean, maybe years ago I would have said it in a meaner way, but now I say it in a very nice way. JACK: You said that there were people in your family that used to be prejudice towards other people, have you seen them change at all? DECKER: Um, one of my brothers would probably fly a Confederate flag if he could. Um, but, you know and it's funny because my mother in law, I wouldn't say she's a prejudice person but she still refers to Page 12 �people that are black as colored. And you know she just never evolved with the times. I had a student last year though, her dad is black and her mom was white and this girl's quite, she's quite white actually and she said I would identify with black and would you want to be called African American and she said no, I'm not African American, I'm an American; a black American and I don't want to be called African American which has been really interesting. But as far as family members go I don't think really, I mean, besides this one brother of mine and I think he's had to evolve, um, he still will say things but not in the same way that he used to because he's had to become more politically correct. My other brother, he's a counselor and he's, he's, he's fairly open minded so, I think that um prejudices, there still are more prejudices toward gender identity and things like that, but I don't anybody would be so rude to in the family to say things. JACK: I know in education a lot of times teachers have to deal with parents, has there been any issues with parents or have you connected with any parents over diversity in school? DECKER: I, um, I think most parents know, I, I, I, a good thing. They know that um, it's a safe place to be, in my room and things like that. So I haven't had to deal with that, um, in a negative way. Just in a positive way. But mostly everybody's just like well thanks for making them work really hard and that type of thing. JACK: Have you had any students come to you and thank you for what you've done and opening your doors and things like that? DECKER: Oh yeah, this one girl gives me a hug like every single day. (Laughing) Oh hi Mrs. Decker. This one junior that I had last year, she is part of GSA, and I am like your fine its great your fine and I think that that group it’s kind of weird for me to connect with that group not because I’m prejudice or anything like that just because you know I am not the teacher in charge of that group but I think that group and the kids in that group have connected with me a lot, and it is like I said this one girl gives me a hug every day and hangs around my room and stuff like that. But I have kids who will come in my room and just eat at lunch. I mean because they don’t have anywhere else to go and I am like ok yeah know come on in my room and eat and sit there. And yeah know this year I don’t, but I have had like foreign exchange students who will just hang out until they got a group they could meet and things like that. So, I think that they just know I am a friend, and I am a teacher, and even though I work them really hard. Most kids I tell them they are not going to like me when they have me, but the year after they have me they will like me. But no, I think most kids know I am very safe. I guess the only prejudice I have is that they are not allowed to wear Western Michigan stuff in my classroom. It was college day today because it is our spirit week, and this one girl walks by and says Mrs. Decker I almost wore my Western Michigan shirt just to bug you. I went to Central and Grand Valley. But no, I think that you know I do have kids that come to me and kids feel comfortable with me. And I like I said I but a GSA sign up and I put and FCA sign up if I had to and a diversity club sign up, so I just think everyone feels pretty comfortable. But, I don’t know that that was true twenty years ago. So, I think I have changed. JACK: I know that you mentioned that you have adopted children. What led you to adoption? Page 13 �DECKER: Umm…You know even when I was little I think that in the back of my mind I thought I would do that. I thought I was going to grow up and be a missionary or something like that. But some of those countries have really big bugs. And that’s the truth. But you know when my husband and I weren’t able to have children we had no problem; we wanted to have children so we were willing to adopt. But I’ll have to say that before our son was born and he is twenty- two the doctor who had been my OBGYN person moved out to Wautoma, Washington and she called us with a possible adoption, and the child was going to be black. And I said we can’t do that. And she said I am so surprised I thought you could love any child. I said I could love any child but we were living in Newaygo we weren’t living in Grand Rapids. We were living in Newaygo, Michigan and I don’t think that child in Newaygo, Michigan in this day and age can be accepted. I said I will not do this to a child, and at this point in time we had no plans to move anywhere else. My husband worked at Gerber in Fremont and I was a sports reporter covering sports in that area and we had no plans to move. So, then I said no I won’t adopt that child just because it won’t be good for that child. Now living in Grand Rapids and Rockford it would not have been a problem at all. Then, when our daughter when she was going to be born and we were chosen to be her birth parents we went through Bethany Christian Services for Andrea. I said the only person who we need to call and say is this ok is my mom. I said can you love this Asian child or are you going to reject this Asian child. So we just wanted to have children and things like that. And race would not have made any difference, but location made a difference. We had a pretty honest feel for that situation; there were no black kids in Newaygo. So, being a black child at that time was not going to be well received. So, we just knew that. JACK: Have you felt any discrimination toward your adopted child Andrea? Is that… DECKER: You know I did not. I did not. And I had known about it till years later that a parent said did you know a student called her a derogatory term. And she never told me that. She was always very good at handling her things and things like that. And I said no. So then I asked her about that and I said well what happened with this; this like last year and what happened and she said yeah so and so called me a spic, and I said she didn’t even get her derogatory term correct you’re not Hispanic yeah know. That’s a derogatory term for someone who is Hispanic and that. So I said well what was your reaction and she said well I just decided that that person wasn’t really a friend. Then, a couple years later I found out that there was a little bit more to it than that because she wrote a paper when she was a senior and I said you never told me any of this. And so there was not necessarily that kind of terminology and it was some other things like that, but she was always good at handling that. But I think she pretty much grew up white. Yeah. And not because we didn’t like when the girls were little I put them in summer class for a week and they learned Vietnamese. Do you remember that at all? JACK: No DECKER: No. (Laughter) Andrea learned the Vietnamese, and she has connected in the last years with her birth mom. Who lives in um Texas and she a half sister and two half brothers, and she met the half sister this summer that is fifteen years old and things like that. But their white too because their birth mom was adopted straight out of Tycoon and was raised in the US by a white, English School teacher. So, she was raised pretty white too. Not like we tried to take her to Buddhist temples and things like Page 14 �that. Yeah know we never did anything like that. And our son is Caucasian. So, um but I don’t think she felt really prejudice against do you? You’d no better than I do. JACK: She said she feels like a white person. DECKER: Absolutely I am sure she feels like a white person; she grew up very white. JACK: And she went to Michigan State? DECKER: She is at Michigan State. JACK: She is. DECKER: And her dorm; her first dorm was totally integrated. People from everywhere. But I don’t think she met many people. I think pretty much her roommate was dad was white mom was black they got along great and things like that. I think she mixes well with various races. But she is still probably hanging out with white people because she is living with white people. So. Is there anything else? JACK: Where do you think the members of the diverse student body have made the most progress in the school system? DECKER: I would probably have to say acceptance. Right. It is interesting, we used to stereotype somebody, if you’re this color your good at this sport or that sport or something like that. And I just think that it’s a huge mix and everybody just mixes in at Rockford and I think just that just being accepted is where we have made the most progress. JACK: Where do you think the least amount of progress has been made? As far as you said that most gay kids still try to fly under the radar. DECKER: Yeah I think that is where the least progress has been made. For somebody who is a different gender identity. Racial isn’t a big deal, but genderism is a deal. JACK: So you would say this community has become a lot more tolerant. I don’t know if you would go as far as saying that don’t mind but they like a gay or lesbian population or something like that. So, why would you say that these students are still just trying to get out of there without being noticed? DECKER: I think it’s a societal thing. I think it’s still that society is not accepting or the different and I don’t think it is so much the students. We have had some kids that are openly gay, who were incredibly popular. So, I don’t think it’s the students so much, it’s a societal thing. I don’t think you are going to get beaten up in the bathroom because he’s gay or she is gay. And I would say it is probably the guys who are gayer that slide under the radar and the girls don’t really care. It is hard to know, girls are friendly with each other anyways, I mean it’s not just like you will see someone who is just best friends hanging out or putting their arm around each other. So I don’t think it is as noticeable with girls as it is with guys. Looking at it is a societal thing. JACK: Would you say that that is less in Michigan? You know compared to a different state like California, or Chicago. You don’t think that that would have much of an issue as in west Michigan? Page 15 �DECKER: I would say I think it is huge in west Michigan. It’s just a real conservative this side of the state. Which is good and which is bad. But it is changing, because we are forced to change. I would say your generation changes the most because of the media influence. With the media it is no big deal. The shows that are on today that you watch would have been unheard of when I was growing up. The people, the people you see living together and you see people who are actually gay or are pretending to be gay you see that a lot. And so I just think that your generation is changing things. JACK: In a good way? DECKER: I think it is a great way. Absolutely. People are People and People. Somewhere I learned along the line that judging is not good. I am not going to be judging someone because of who there are. I really don’t try to judge people because of their gender identity or something like that. I try not to. And yeah I still want people to have some of my same conservative views, but as far as…people are meant to be loved. JACK: So you don’t think bullying is a problem in Rockford or west Michigan at all? At some schools they bullying this huge thing; I never really saw it at my high school. DECKER: I don’t think so. I mean I have never had someone come to me and say I have been bullied or anything. I mean I don’t think so. I don’t even think when we have a three or four classrooms with special education kids and I don’t think those kids are bullied. They are just maybe left alone. But I don’t think they are bullied. I don’t think kids are mean to them. I think overall we are a pretty nice society. JACK: What kinds of changes do you hope to see in the future? DECKER: Well I would like to see more diversity as far as staff. Uh, I think that’d be great, you know, I would feel really uncomfortable if I like went to a school and everyone was not my race; you know it would be nice to have somebody, a secretary, somebody in the counseling office, somebody, you know, coaching; I think I think all the coaches are white, even, even all the football coaches, the basketball coaches, you know, you name it, whatever we have, everybody the custodians, nothing that’s all pretty homogenized. So, I think it would be nice to change; bring some people in that are qualified. See somebody, see a teacher in a wheelchair, you know, and um we had somebody apply one time, that’s all I remember, I don’t even think, I don’t think people even apply to Rockford sometimes; they probably think it’s a real white society. I would like to see that change. JACK: How do you see that change taking place? DECKER: Very slowly. The only way it’s going to change is if people just start, people who are more diverse than what we have just start applying and applying and applying and eventually, you know, you have got to say, “come on, these people are qualified.” I mean you can’t be turning those away. But, I think that maybe if we had somebody different in, um, the administration or something like that, um, but, I don’t know; it’s just going to change really slowly, because it’s just the way we are. I don’t think we are necessarily not hiring people who are diverse, but I think most diverse people would probably not apply at Rockford or they aren’t related to someone who is already in the system, to tell you the truth, I mean we have a lot of people – there is a lot of nepotism at Rockford, you know like an assistant Page 16 �superintendent whose son is a principal and whose wife does this and this and then they have family friends that they get in, I mean I’m not even sure how I got in… yeah, I know that I got in because the principal at one of the middle schools had gone to my high school and the principal at the high school was a teacher at my high school: they knew me and they knew me as a sports reporter. And they knew, well she was a decent sports reporter, we will get here in and it looks like a choux. So, I think that’s how I got in, I don’t know. Um I don’t know. I was one of the people hiring, or interviewing people for hiring and it was all white people. So, the only way it will change is if people start applying, and keep applying and keep applying. We had a student teacher last year, one student teacher, and I have had an assistant teacher one time that was a really nice girl. A gal who was black, and we had a student teacher last year; and I thought for sure that we would hire her. She was really great, but we are not hiring anybody. So that makes a difference too. JACK: Do you think that maybe Rockford doesn’t have the diversity in teachers and the staff at the school because the community isn’t diverse? DECKER: Probably, probably not even with school of choice we are getting a few people coming in, but the community is not very diverse either. No, I don’t think there is much diversity at all; do you? So, that’s probably it. It would be nice to see the community become a little bit more diverse; people move in. It’s a really nice small town. <pause> Do you want me to say something controversial? [Laughing] JACK: Do we want to talk about education a little bit too? Well, we discussed in class about the education system and some faults and some positives, but we were wondering maybe some of your views of the standards that you have to live up to as a teacher… and the government standards if they are different and the government influence on the system. Just elaborate. DECKER: First of all, I don’t think that some of the people in the government who are coming up with these standards really have any understanding of what it is like in the classroom. Now they have decided that the principal should evaluate each teacher twice a year. So, we have three principals in our building and we probably have about 130 teachers. So, if you look at that, and they are dividing it up, you know you get thirty, you get forty, you get forty, you get forty-five or whatever. So it means that they are trying to come into the classroom twice a year. And it sounds great, it really sounds like, woah, yeah those teachers should be evaluated twice a year; but they also have all of their other administrative positions too. And like last year I was evaluated and they are supposed to spread in out throughout the year. So, the assistant principal; I said to my husband with nine days to go, “He hasn’t been in yet, I bet he is not going to come in because he is going to be going over to an elementary and becoming a principal.” So I saw him on like a Thursday and I said, “Are you planning on coming in to my classroom at all?” and he said, “Yep, I’ll be in tomorrow. What are you doing?” And I said, “Okay, well we are going to be doing a quiz and we are going to have food because we had this one thing going on,” and then I said, “and I will be talking about Lord of the Flies with my tenth graders.” And he said, “Okay, great. I’ll come in.” So he came in and sat through the quiz, had a doughnut or something like that; and then he never stayed to see me teach. And so then, the next week; we are running out of time. We are basically to exam week. And I saw him again and said, “Are you coming back in?” and He said, “Yep, what are you Page 17 �doing tomorrow?” And I said, “Well I’m giving the test. We just finished The Things They Carried and we just finished Lord of the Flies, so I’m giving tests in those classes.” And um, he said, “Well, what about Monday?” And I said, “Well, we are going to watch the Lord of the Flies and we are going to be watching a movie on the Vietnam War because now we are at exam week. We are not going to teach two days before exams, you know. We are going to do something low key. And he goes, “Okay, well I will come in for the test.” Well, I’m not teaching during the test, I hand out the test and oh she did a great job like that (motions applause). So he evaluates me and I said, “You got this wrong.” I said, “You praised me on an area I’m not that strong at: contacting parents; because once we went an automated system where all the grades are online and the parents can see things, they basically told parents: the principal basically said, “If your kids are doing well in school, you don’t have to come to conferences.” So people quit coming, and now everybody can see everything online. The kids know, they come into class, I put grades in before school and they come into class second hour and say, “I saw my grades online.” So everybody knows everything. I am not great at connecting parents if their kids aren’t doing well. You know, if they’re failing yes, but if they are getting a D I don’t necessarily contact them because they can see it. Why do I? You know, if they are interested they can contact me, and I said “but you messed up in this one because I am very proficient on how I evaluate them in many different ways.” And I said, “So you messed up on that one.” He had the dates wrong and everything because I think he was trying to cover his tail because he was supposed to spread them out and he came in basically like five days apart. And I said that I am going to impend a letter to tell you those things that you do not have on this sheet that qualify me, you know, as a proficient teacher. And so now they are supposed to come in twice a year, one announced and one unannounced, and one of the math teachers said, “You know we are going to have to provide every one of the benchmarks that we’re meeting with the states says we are going to meet.” Rockford is an excellent system, but we don’t all have these benchmarks memorized that we are supposed to. So now, if he tells me that he is coming in on Thursday or if he doesn’t tell me, and he walks into my class and he says, “You’ll have those benchmarks on my desk by the end of the day.”, I can’t do that because I don’t- that is not how I do my lesson plans. I have these huge folders and there are things that I add every year or change every year, but I don’t necessarily qualify them by a bunch of benchmarks; but I know that when kids leave my classroom I am doing a good job because I’ve asked them: “Is there anything? What can I do differently?” I just had an email with a girl who is at Western. I said, “Mary, let me know what I could do differently to make you that much better of a student.” You know, she is a freshman, so I haven’t heard back from her; but I always ask kids, and I asked this one kid and I said, “Did I prepare you for college?” and he said “No, Mrs. Decker.” And I said, “What do you mean?” and he said, “College is so much easier than your class ever was.” So, it’s like why do, I know I am meeting those benchmarks. And there are ninety-two benchmarks where there used to be for English, and when I was at the Rockford Freshman Center, our principal told us we had to meet all ninety-two that year. We’re like, “You’re nuts!” We can’t do that. This one benchmark has like ten different areas of writing that you are supposed to cover. That would be a year’s worth of benchmarks. You know like: character analysis, autobiography and narrative, a research paper, you name it. One benchmark could take the year to cover. And there were ninety-two of them. And now they say, “Well, no. You cover those ninety-two in four years.” Well okay, but what qualifies, because my students are reading The Crucible aloud; so does that qualify as I am teaching them how to speak? Not really; but, they are learning intonation, things like that. So, I think it’s nuts. They just told us that all the M.E.A.P. Page 18 �qualifiers or the M.M.E. qualifiers: how Rockford did last year, how many of our kids were proficient last year; next year or this year when they take it because the standards have been raised this high, only 76% of them would be proficient versus 93% of them. Now if Rockford, which is a fairly consistent, stable society and community; if we can’t meet those benchmarks - how is inner-city Detroit going to meet those benchmarks? And plus, we have computers, and our teachers have computers in our classrooms; most my kids have, you know, cell phones and iPhones and stuff like that. I talked to my friend who is a teacher at Sacred Heart, and they do not even have computers in their classrooms for the teachers. And it is like if we have that and somebody up in Everett, Michigan doesn’t have that; how can they meet those benchmarks if we’re worried about them. Inner-city Grand Rapids-- You know; how can they meet those benchmarks? Yeah, it’s great, but you’re not changing the family structure; so how can you expect the teachers. We’re expected, our special ed. kids are expected to as well as our regular ed. kids on the ACT. Really? I had a girl last year with a seventy-four I.Q. She could read a paragraph and not remember a thing that she read at the end of it; and they are supposed to meet the ACT requirements or else our school is not proficient and if my special ed. students don’t get the same score that you would get on the ACT than I am going to be evaluated differently? You know like, you’re not a very good teacher. She has a seventy-four I.Q.! And I can’t help if people have lazy butts either. I have slums in my classroom that sit there and ask me to entertain them. So, I just think the state: good intentions, we lost our manufacturing so now we are going to be a smart state, gene pool hasn’t changed, you know, let’s be realistic here. So, I just think the government should be taking care of the economy and work on the bad schools and let the good schools continue to do a great job. JACK: Do you think that maybe, with the state having such high standards is, in a way, hurting us? DECKER: Yeah because I don’t think that we can meet those high standards. This is a manufacturing state. And, I think we have, years ago, a lot of people would go through school and kind of get through school and then go to manufacturing positions and things like that, and I think that nation-wide I think the standards are hurting us. We are competing against people; I think like Switzerland has some of the highest standards and they meet those, but they don’t ask their special ed. kids to take those. When you see those polls where the United States is way down here and those other countries are way up here, they usually take just the cream of the crop and give those kids the test. And I think the standards are hurting us. I just think it is making us look dumber and dumber and dumber. And in some ways society is getting dumber. JACK: So you’re saying that at Rockford they make all the special ed. students take the ACT, even the ones with like Down syndrome? DECKER: No we don’t have any, I think we have one student that might be slightly downs; um, other than that they have learning disabilities and some low I.Q.’s. We do have a couple self-contained classrooms. They get-- Somebody will like read it to them or something like that, but it’s still the remembering. If you would have to study a month’s worth of notes before any exam, you know how hard that is. Now we are asking them to read and just cognitively understand something that they might read the sentence and they don’t even understand it. So, I think the government is well meaning, but I don’t think it is necessarily realistic. Page 19 �JACK: One of our big focuses in class lately has been about textbooks and information being altered or changed or showing the positivesDECKER: Oh instead of showing some of the negative things JACK: And I know that you’re an English teacher, and you read a lot of books- do you notice that? DECKER: The books we read are fairly old books. JACK: Sadly, this is where our recording device died. The remaining part of the interview, we discussed how Jackie did not really see that the books her students read in English class were biased, but she did agree to the idea that all textbooks should relay all of the facts, not just a positive portrayal of history. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1e24581e1e75528d1ec66da24b68fab7.mp3 261bc57128a099ad8d34bb05bcad4d11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Decker_Jacqueline Title A name given to the resource Jacqueline Decker audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Decker, Jacqueline Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jack, Emma Description An account of the resource Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Age discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abf6d6cc41156f889b88021ffde02c49.mp4 cdb90822c24bfe3df5f9705e9e12172e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75afc84b994e7d7a318d863c41619c98.pdf 89911b46ff223d61d8cb35c7ac717db6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project George Jager (55:39) (00:30) Background Information • • • • • George was born in Kalamazoo, MI He moved to Imlay City, MI when he was 10 years old There were 9 kids in his family and his father worked on a farm George also worked on the farm and in a factory during the winter He was drafted in October of 1943 (02:06) Training • • • • • George was working on a farm when he heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor from the principle of his school He was sent to Fort Custer, MI and then to Camp Blanding, FL Many of the men he trained with were from the east coast They were trained to be replacements in Europe George was sent to Camp Shanks, NY to be deployed (08:50) Deployment • • • • • • • • • • • • • • He boarded the Ile De France, a troop ship convert [former luxury liner] with 8,000 men They left in April of 1944 and travelled without a convoy The ship landed at Glasgow, Scotland George went to south east London He was chosen to go to chemical warfare school In June he went back to his unit and they crossed the English Channel They landed on Omaha Beach on June 16, 10 days after D-Day George was taken to Cherbourg to join the 4th division They fought at St Lo He was considered a heavy weapons machine gunner At Mortain the Germans made a counter attack George was hit in the leg by a bullet and taken to a field hospital After he was treated he was sent back with his unit When he got back to his unit most of the men had been replaced (26:55) Germany • George went through Luxemburg and Belgium �• • • • • • • He was right next to the battle at Bastogne They went to Maastricht in the Netherlands and then up to the Hurtgen Forest in Germany On November 1, 1944 they were surrounded in the Hurtgen Forest with a lot of shelling going on George had a shell hit next to him and he coughed up blood for 3 days They were liberated by the 9th Division A doctor checked him out and he had swamp foot, so he was sent to a hospital in Belgium for 2 months After Belgium he was put on a hospital ship (31:42) Back to the US • • • • • • The hospital ship went to Boston and he mostly played games while aboard George was sent to a hospital in Durham, NC for a month He took 30 days leave and went home After his leave he went to Miami Beach, FL and was assigned to Camp Grant, IL in April, 1945 At camp grant he was assigned to be a squad leader for people coming back from Europe that were going to Japan George was discharged in December of 1945 (45:09) After Being Discharged • • • • • • • He has visited France and seen the cemeteries for soldiers When he was in Europe during the war he didn’t know what was going on in the concentration camps His faith and his girlfriend helped him through the war He got married on June 5, 1949 George lived in Grand Rapids, MI and worked for a mason Then he got his GED and went to Calvin College George started teaching after college �.lIl C f OotU ,::t•. . ," r~ :F TH[ H"aut IUtNHt),4 1l0TT(JlID",.. G7 WORLD WAR II CEM, ffi WORLD WAR I CEME .v,r- WORLD WAR I MONI ~ WORLD WAR liMON R M A N y ",08LlNl ' .....lIlIr'_. .~RG[N'AN . t • rO UG( ltn . 1t£t.lNl S o MILES 10 20 30 40 $0 60 70 80 90 100 Ed tftO·MB"ERSE3 cemetery memorials at these burial sites; controlling as to d esign and materials, providing regulations for and supervising erection of all monuments, memorials, buildings and other structures in permanent United States cemetery memorials on for eign soil; and controlling the design of U.S. private monuments 22 E3 and cooperating with American citi­ zens, states, municipalities, or asso­ ciations desiring to erect war memo­ rials outside the continental limits of the United States. It is not responsi­ ble for construction, maintenance or operation of cemeteries in the con­ tinental United States or its terri­ tories and possessions. COLMAfit • liPtNAL<:f) <: After World War I, the American Battle Monuments Commission erected a memorial chapel in each of the eight military cemeteries overseas already established by the War Department, as well as twelve monuments and two bronze tablets on the battlefields and elsewhere, to record the achievements of our Armed Forces. In 1934, the , War I overseas cemeteries transferred to the Commission l ecutive Order. The names and locations of World War I cemetery meme the number of burials and number of missing recorded at memorials are: �Hitler's Battle Against the Ten Commandments By Gary De M~r A s an unapologetic, bibliophile" , ", I am always on the lookout for long-forgotten books that contain flashes of wisdom that offer counsel for our day. While on a trip to Mi~hi­ gail, I spent the day at John K. King Used and Rare Books 'in downtown Detroit and another fun day rummag­ ing through the used book depart­ ments at Kregel Christian Books and Baker Book House in Grand Rapids. , Searching for books on-line has its advantages, but there is nothing like seeing tens ,of thousands of books you didn't know existed, apdyou've got to havel During this latest book hunt, J came across The Ten Command­ me~ts~' Te~. Sh.~~t No':eis '~j; Hitler S War Againstthe Moral Code written byRauschning in l 943'." I was shocked,at what! read in light of the present controversy overthe Ten Commandments, Just a week before finding The Ten Commandments, I had read the following from Harold O. J. Brown's book The Sensate Cul­ ture: Western Civilization Between Chaos and Transformation: , If there are no laws made in heaven, by what standards would human society organize itself? We do need.laws by.which to organize and structure our lives, but if God has not given them, where shall they come .from? There is only one an­ swer: We must make them our­ selves. Of course, if we make our own laws they will have .no more authority or force than what we our­ selves possess and can assert by means of the power at our disposal. In other words, law comes to repre­ sent not the will of the Creator but the will of the strongest creatures, This became the wide spread view, sometimes unexpressed but fre­ quently explicit, of mostWestem ' societies in the first partofthe twen­ tieth century, America's great legal statesman, Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., thought no differently in this re­ spect from the great dictator; Adolf . Hitler. Both of them believed that laws simply represent the will of dominant majority. Holmes was a courteous, urbane, sophisticated gentleman, but his idea oflaw would have offered no opposition tothe en­ actments of Hitler, wlio fora time reflected the will ,6i 'Ger~any,'s dominantmajoriry ',' : ,.Can such a comparison be made? Holmes and Hitler? Through its abor­ tion laws alone, America has killed nearly ten times the number Hitler killed. Appeals can no Ioiiger be made to a higher' law in defense of the unborn or anyone' else for that matter. To cite any of God's mandments is a violation of th'e court'scommandments. lri '1991, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court over­ turned a murderer's death sentence because the prosecutor quoted the' Bible in his closing arguments. A similar thing happened when a pros­ ecutor quoted the Bible's instructions on the death penalty for murder. A fixed law anchored in the character of God must be censored so a flexi­ ble law can replace it, a law that can be shaped and molded to fit the agenda of the new gods, whoever they may be. com­ ' , Hitler and his malleable henchmen hated God 's law. They knew that it was the only thing that stood between them and their new world order. The God of the Bible is described by Hitler as "that Asiatic tyrant." True freedom is freedom from God's law. Rauschning recounts the following ravings by Hitler while spending the . evening with him and other Nazi party loyalists at the Reich chancery: The day will come when I shall hold up against these commandFACTS PAGE 4 FEBRUARY 2004 ments the tables of a new law. And history will recognize our move­ ment as the great battle for humanity's liberation, a liberation from th~ curse ofMount Sin~i, from the dark stammerings of nomads who could no more trust their own sound instincts, who could un­ derstand the divine only in the form of a tyrant who orders one to do the very things one doesn't like, This is what we are fighting against: the . masochistic spirit of self-torment, J the curse of so-called morals, idol­ ized to protect the weak from the strong in the face of immortal law of battle, the great law of divine nature. Against the so-called ten commandments, against them we are fighting." , Sound familiar? For now, the ma­ terialists will' permit us to hang our displays ofthe Ten Co~andments in our homes and churches, but there can be no such standard forthe State. People of goodwillin Germany and beyonddid. no! believe Herman Rauschning. in 1937, and there are too many Christians today who won 't be lieve me about the Ten Command" ments battle today and wh~re it migh]:f\ lead. The courts are doing legalli~ what Hitler did through terror. ,~ ~ , least three supreme court justices, have declared that international la~ should be America's standard ofjus-, tice. tAnd what is the foundation of international law? Are Americans willing to adopt the moral world view of Europe? If Christians do not wake up, America is headed down the same dark path to destruction. BiblicalJVorld Views, December, 2003 - Dread Sovereign let my evening '~ ong like holy incenserise; Assist the offering of my tongue to reach the lofty skies. Isaac Watts � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JagerG Title A name given to the resource Jager, George (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jager, George Description An account of the resource George Jager grew up in Michigan and was drafted in 1943 and trained in Florida to be a replacement infantryman. In April of 1944 he went to England on a converted troop ship. George received chemical warfare training and then landed on Omaha Beach 10 days after D-day. He was a machine gunner and fought in battles at Normandy, Mortain, and the Hurtgen Forest. George was injured once at Mortain by a bullet and again at the Hurtganen Forest by a bomb. He was sent to a field hospital and then a back the US because of his swamp foot. He served for a short time after arriving home and then was discharged. After he was discharged he went to college and became a teacher. A map and magazine article are appended to interview outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-01-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3231342bbafcb95fbcf21278dd890fa7.jpg 76c548e7aef1c78e1c0cde4e14f5934f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/051c82ea2b25086a8af793a92110ecde.jpg 81d24549c3c6d15ef3f3f214d29ca025 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Insel-Bücherei Series Description An account of the resource The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904-1987 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource ger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05_IB0618b Title A name given to the resource Jahrhundertmitte: deutsche Gedichte der Gegenwart Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</A> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Description An account of the resource Cover of Jahrhundertmitte: deutsche Gedichte der Gegenwart, published by Insel-Verlag, 1955. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 618 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.618 Language A language of the resource de Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/188f9a7602ee01a05bbc5f5ca8e53141.mp4 1d6da459297dd8842998898e47d476df https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/82815f107330c33267496c94da1c06b6.pdf b335674d7f7cfd4de3b9d992dd0262a3 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Richard Jakubczak Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Mr. Richard Jakubczak of Holland, Michigan. And the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now, can you start us off with some background on yourself. To begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. St. Mary’s Hospital, 1946, May 20th. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you grow up in Grand Rapids? Veteran: Partially. I went to Holy Name of Jesus School. And then in about the 7th grade, we moved to a little town by Ada, Michigan, called Parnell. And went to a school called St. Patrick’s until the 10th grade. And then eventually, graduated from Lowell Senior High School. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because St. Patrick’s closed their high school. Interviewer: Alright. Now, what did your family do for a living while you were growing up? Veteran: My father worked for Irwin Seating Company and my mother was a housewife. Interviewer: And how many kids were in the family? �Veteran: There was—I have—had an older brother, a younger sister, and I have a younger brother who is 17 years younger than I am. And my older brother has passed away. And he was about 15 months older than I was. So, we hung around. We did everything together. Interviewer: Alright. So, in what year did you graduate from high school? Veteran: I graduated in 1965. Interviewer: Okay. And then, what did you do once you graduated? Veteran: Well, that was the summer to play. I did have a job at a place called Lowell Engineering, when it was still located in Lowell. And besides that, it was just a summer of typical summer—what all kids are doing. After they graduate, you’re free. But you know, we used to live by a lake so we did a lot of swimming. I worked for the farmers. Threw a lot of hay bales in my time so…And just hung around. Interviewer: Okay. And did you have any plans beyond that for what you wanted to do next? (00:02:02) Veteran: I actually started at Kendall School of Design. And I went there for a year to try to get into—well, art design and that. And either the professors didn’t appeal to me or the structure that they wanted me to do didn’t appeal to me. So, I left. And once I left, I became A-1 for the draft. So, we were having some family problems about that time and I had an awful lot of arguments with my father. And after one argument, I just walked out of the house and said, “I am going to go join the Marines.” My father was in the Air Force. All his brothers, all my uncles, were in the Marines. My grandfather was in the Army. So, it was almost a tradition. But this—I was just leaving. I was going to go join the Marine Corps. And my older brother said, “No, no, don’t. We will go join the Navy. I will go join the Navy with you.” So, we both went down, saw the �recruiter, and joined the Navy. And 10 days later, we were on a 120-day delay plan. And about 10 days after we had signed up for the Navy, I got my draft notice. So, I called up and said, “Well, who has got me?” They said, “So, where do you want to go?” So, I just stayed with the Navy and went in. And when you go to boot camp at Great Lakes Naval Hospital—or Great Lakes Naval Yard, they gave you a list that you could put in and sign up for, to see what you want to do while you are in the Navy. Well, I had just passed the test for aviation. And I put that on the top of my list. And my older brother, again, said, “Corpsman! Put corpsman down. Just put it down the last—last on the list.” And little did we know, that they were drafting corpsmen at that time, just to go to replace the ones that were in Vietnam. So, we did and the next thing after graduation from boot camp, we went to corps school. Both of us. (00:04:17) Interviewer: Alright. Now, let’s…Go through the beginnings of the process. Now, did you a physical in Michigan? Or was your first physical actually done at Great Lakes? Veteran: Well, the first physical was in Detroit, Michigan. Actually, the second physical was also in Detroit, Michigan. When we got to Great Lakes, we had another physical. Interviewer: Alright. Now, at the first one—at Detroit—did you have people who had been called up for the draft and things like that there? Or…? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: During the physical, or right after the physical, was taken, we were in this large auditorium. And there was quite a few of us. And they lined us up. And they said, “1, 2, 3, 4 Marine. 1, 2, 3…” Well, we ended up being Navy anyway. So, that’s why we went to Navy bootcamp. First, they asked for volunteers. �Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then they said, “Okay, every 4th man is going to be a Marine.” Interviewer: But you were already enlisted and headed for the Navy so that— Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: --that didn’t matter for you. Veteran: But most of these were guys that had joined the Navy. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And technically, the Marine Corps is part of the Navy. Interviewer: It is? Oh, okay. Veteran: So, they had just went 1, 2, 3, 4—that’s the Marine. Interviewer: Alright. Because like I said, in other situations they have general troops and draftees who come in and then it’s Army and Marines and they do the same thing. Okay. Veteran: And— Interviewer: But this was a largely Navy group that you were— Veteran: That is correct. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I mean, most of the guys there signed up. There was very little, back in 1966, there was very little people being drafted. [Note: There was a massive draft from Michigan later in the year] Most of the ones that we were around all joined at that point. �Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now when you got down to Great Lakes, they did a physical there. Was that more thorough than what you had in Detroit? Or was it the same thing all over again? (00:06:05) Veteran: It was—if you didn’t have anything major wrong with you, you were going to pass. It was the same thing as in Detroit. It was quick. And the whole thing—that day kind of like whizzed by. You get there at 5:30 in the morning. And they say, “Well, you’re going to sleep there. Make your bunk. And you’re going to get up at reveille.” Well, by the time you made your bunk, you’re going to lay down for about 5 minutes. So, we just kind of like laid down on the mattresses and slept for about 20 minutes. And then, the rest of that day was the physical, the haircut, getting your clothes, ID cards. All of that within the first few days—or the first day, I mean. Interviewer: Alright. And what was the—kind of the daily regimen like? What were you doing from day to day in boot camp? Veteran: Well, actually I got very—myself and my brother got very lucky. On the train going to Great Lakes from Grand Rapids, or from Detroit, a guy told us—he said, “Volunteer for morning clean up.” And what that did is we got to get up earlier than everybody else, have breakfast, and come back. And then, by that time, everybody else was up getting ready to go do physical therapy—or, physical education, doing your exercises and all that, doing personal inspections and everything else while all we had to do was—we made sure all the bunks were the right way, as cleaned up as—all the clothes were folded the right way. We had to wash our own clothes and tie them on lines. We had to make sure the knots were okay. And then we joined the rest of the company for the schooling because in the Navy, most of it was very little physical and a lot of education. And—because you had to learn the ways about the Navy. And so, the only time that I �stood a personal inspection was when the whole company stood a personal inspection. I didn’t have to do it every morning. Interviewer: Alright. Now, was there a lot of emphasis placed on discipline while you were there? (00:08:17) Veteran: I think—yes, there was. More discipline, I think, than a lot of the guys were used to. Because we had people from all over and believe me, some of those guys were extremely naïve. And didn’t meet a lot of different people. I mean, we had people from New York, California, Texas, Florida. We had them from all over. And the discipline in our small company was really not that hard. It just, to me, hearing other guys talk that have gone in through the Army and the Marine Corps, the Navy bootcamp is nothing compared to what the Army and Marine Corps go through. It was very lax. We did—you had to march and do all that kind of stuff. But mostly it was learning about the Navy. About ships. And of course, that was something I had never walked on. I never set foot on a ship the 4 years I was in the Navy. So, it was an interesting time. I actually was looking forward to boot camp. We worked for farmers the last 5-10 years and got pretty well-built. And we were strong. We threw a lot of hay bales. And actually, Navy boot camp got us out of shape. Interviewer: Alright. Well, I think that’s a first. But okay. And how long did the boot camp take? Veteran: Our boot camp was 12 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. And then when you complete boot camp, what’s the next step for you? (00:10:03) �Veteran: Got orders on the last week. And that was to Corps School. And you had 2 weeks off, 15 days off, and then you had to come back and we reported to Corps School. And basically, that’s what it was. It was a school. You marched to your classes but it wasn’t like boot camp at all. It was—that was your job. You just had to do it the military way. And so, Corps School was also 12 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Now, what did they actually teach you? What specific sort of skills or things did—information—did they give you? Veteran: Basically, they taught us about the same things as an LPN, or Licensed Practical Nurse, is taught. How to work in a hospital. How to make beds the right way. The different diseases. Not so much first aid. Mostly, it was just working in a hospital. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And the different jobs that you would have to do in a hospital. They went through operating assistance all the way to emergency room assistance and just working on a ward. And we did that for a little bit too. Interviewer: But you weren’t really, at that point, getting trained to go into a combat situation and… Veteran: No. Interviewer: Accompany a Marine unit in the field, things like that? Veteran: Nothing. There was no combat. This was strictly to get you ready for the medical field in the Navy. Period. We did learn first aid. I think there was a—they spent about 3 to 5 days in �classrooms talking about it and showing you what the different wounds were. They also spent a couple days going over what the venereal diseases were. So, I mean, first aid was very little. Interviewer: Alright. What sort of people did they have teaching you at Corps School? Veteran: They were all lieutenant commanders or a little bit lower but all officers and nurses. And pretty much, it was a nurse that was in charge of the whole Corps School. And they worked at teaching us but they also spent time at Great Lakes Naval Hospital. Interviewer: Now, were the nurses men or women or both? (00:12:19) Veteran: When I was going to the Corps Schools, it was all women. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then at the point when you complete Corps School, do they then ask you—give you any choices about what your assignment might be? Or what happens at that point? Veteran: In the military, they don’t give you—they don’t ask you anymore. They just say, “This is what you’re going to do.” Unfortunately, they were—myself and my brother had an MOS of 84-04, which meant it was a field corpsman. And which also meant that you, after Corps School, you would go to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and learn the Marine Corps way of doing things. Believe me, it was a lot different than the Navy. Interviewer: Oh, I bet. Veteran: We—in February of ’60— Interviewer: 7 now? Veteran: 7, I flew down—well, we flew down to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. And we got in and their instructors were all staff sergeants or above. And they all were Vietnam veterans. Some �of them had more than one tour. And they had one goal and one goal in mind: to try to keep us alive when we have to go to Vietnam. So, they were hard on us. And they got us back in shape. I had—we had to follow a Marine who was probably 50—in his mid-50s. And he could do physical stuff that all us 19 and 20-year-olds and 18-year-olds, we could not keep up with this man for nothing in the world. And I think that always made his day, if he could get everybody just to finally get pooped out. Because he just made sure that—his goal was to get us back in shape and he really did. He got us in very good physical condition. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you get some of the sort of the boot camp experience of the people screaming at you and all of that sort of thing? Or was this just a lot more focused on the actual training? (00:14:33) Veteran: This was actually focused on the actual training. They wanted to teach us how the Marines act in the field so we could know what was going on when we were there. And how to react under fire and what to do under fire. They also had medical staff there that—they were the ones that taught us actual first aid. You know, I can recall that we were practicing lots. And they gave us different people that were supposed to be injured in different ways. The scenario was it was an atomic blast and so you had wounded people and dead all over the place. And I started working on this one who has supposedly a stomach injury. And another corpsman was helping me when the instructor came up and he said, “Why are you working on this guy? Is he seriously hurt?” He said, “In a time of war, you leave him be and find the ones that are least injured, to get them back on the firing line.” That, for me, was one of the hardest things to try to adapt to. The ones that are hurt the worst are the ones that you want to help the most because a lot of those guys were going to die because they had to wait for you to take care of somebody who wasn’t �going to die but could still fight. So, that was one of the hardest lessons we had to learn. And even when I went to Vietnam, that was one of the hardest things we had to do. (00:16:26) Interviewer: Alright. Now, when you are in the training here, did they expect corpsmen with the Marines to carry weapons? Or was that not part of it? Veteran: Technically, according to the Geneva Convention, I was told that we were going to carry a 45, which we did. But it was not for us. It was for the protection of the wounded. That is how they got around the Geneva Convention. And I needed to use an M-16 a couple times when I was in Vietnam and there was always one on the ground. So, when I needed it, I didn’t have to carry it. They were already there. Interviewer: Did you have weapons training, beyond the 45? Veteran: We…I shot the M-16, the M-60, .50 caliber machine gun, the M-79 Blooper, which is a grenade launcher. I shot everything that I could possibly shoot just to get used to shooting it. I shot an AK-47. The Marines were very happy to let us shoot. But most of my shooting was done in Vietnam during fan fires. And at Camp Lejeune, we had an M-14 which we shot. Nice weapon, by the way. Little heavy for jungle fighting. And the 45. And I was—nobody was very good with the 45. They had to be really close for you to hit anything with the 45. The M-14 was an outstanding weapon. And I didn’t get to shoot the M-16 until we were actually in Vietnam. Interviewer: Alright. Now, how long did the Corps School last? (00:18:08) Veteran: In Camp Lejeune, it lasted 6 weeks. And most of that was learning how the Marines act in the field, how to move with the Marines and what to do under certain conditions. As an example, if you’re caught in an ambush, the whole goal is to have the suppressing fire so you’re not tied down, you’re actually going to the enemy. And that came to play because some—our �staff sergeant—sorry, I don’t remember names. I had made it a habit not to remember names and now, for the life of me, I can’t—the names I want to remember, I can’t. This staff sergeant that was our instructor taught us that when you get ambushed, you attack. So, they have this 3-day outing at the end of it before you graduate and we are a company of corpsman playing Marine. And we get ambushed by the Marines. So, we attacked. And we followed our instructor’s words to the letter and we actually pushed our attackers back into the swamp. And our staff sergeant came up and he was just angry as hell. And we couldn’t figure out why. We did what he did. He said we were supposed to die. We were not—he wanted to make an example of us and we were all supposed to die. We weren’t supposed to do what we did and I just—I was the one that spoke up because I have a big mouth. And I just says, “Sergeant, didn’t we do what you told us?” He said, “Yeah, damn it. You did.” He was a nice guy. He was a great guy. These guys were unbelievable. When we were out in the field for the training, these guys would come out of nowhere. And if I am laying in this one position, he would come up and say, “No, doc. Not there. Go to this hollow part right there. That puts you down a little lower and if they can’t see you, they can’t kill you.” And I turned around to thank him and he’s gone. I mean, these guys had one thing and one thing only: we are going to get you through Vietnam as best we can. So, we loved them. Interviewer: Okay. Now, at this point—you know, late into ’67—how much do you actually know about Vietnam and what was going on over there? (00:20:45) Veteran: That’s a very nice question. Absolutely nothing. I just knew we were going to Vietnam when…We were told in boot camp, “Don’t put down corpsman,” but we did anyway, “you’re going to go to Vietnam.” We didn’t know what Vietnam was. What’s Vietnam? And that was the �way it was all the way through. We started—you know, right about this time, we got more and more knowing that it was not a nice place to go. But by then, it was way too late. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, once you complete Corps School, what’s the next step for you? Veteran: The next step, I went back to Great Lakes Naval Hospital. I was the lucky one of the two. My brother got assigned to 3 North, which was an orthopedic ward. I got assigned a SOQ, which was a sick officer’s quarters. These were all semi-private rooms to private rooms up there on the 12th floor, looking over everything. And my brother had a ward that had 60 patients in it. These were all mostly guys that were wounded in Vietnam. And—because Great Lakes took an awful lot of patients from there. And in retrospect, I actually wish I would have gone with him to that ward. It would have got me better prepared to do what I had to do when I went to Vietnam. He was changing an awful lot of dressings down there. And gaining experience. And at that time, I thought I was the lucky one. But in fact, my brother was. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how long did they have you do this duty? (00:22:34) Veteran: We were supposed to work there for at least a year before we went to Vietnam. But we had been at that hospital less than—maybe 10 months. And we had—I got a call. I was working on the 12th floor and I got a call to go down to personnel. And when I got down there, my brother was down there. And I looked at him and he looked at me and said, “What’s up? What did we do?" First thing in the mind. And the chief came up and said, “Well, a Jakubczak got orders to go to Vietnam.” And we asked, “Which one?” Because his serial number was B510022. Mine was B510023. And he said, “It’s your choice.” We asked the chief what would happen. He said, “One of you would go and when he finishes his tour, he’ll come back and then the other one will go.” And my brother and I didn’t like that because if I go first, he’s sitting there wondering what’s �going on. And then when I come back, I know what’s going on so I am going to be worried about him. So, we talked the chief into taking us both. Me and my brother had the 2-2. He got the orders and I got volunteered but we were already on the list. All the corpsmen that went to Vietnam during my time, that I know of, were all volunteers. That was a job that we were supposed to do. So, that—we got time off. 30 days off in January. And towards the end of January, we flew to California to get shipped to Vietnam. Interviewer: Now, when you got to California, did they give you any kind of preparation? Any shots? Or any other training? Or…? (00:24:37) Veteran: I had already gotten my shots at Great Lakes before I left. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Everybody would—if they were in the medical field, they got them right there. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And when I got to California, all it was was just okay, we got to get you some green clothes like the Marines and a uniform and some combat boots and fatigues. And then it took a few days and we were only in California 4 days. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then we—once we flew out, and I believe that was El Toro that we flew out of. We flew—I was in Japan for about 40 minutes while they fueled us. We never left the plane. And then we took off and ended up in Okinawa. Interviewer: Now, was this a military aircraft or a charter? Veteran: Yes. To get there. �Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. Veteran: From Okinawa to Vietnam, it was Continental. And the stewardesses were pretty goodlooking. And they were all volunteers, by the way. Greatest bunch of people. They knew where we were going because they had—they often did this many times. And made us as comfortable as they could possibly make us. And joking around the whole time there. It was a very nice flight. Interviewer: Now, was the flight all corpsmen? Or were there different personnel, kinds of personnel there? Veteran: It was all enlisted. Interviewer: All enlisted. (00:26:08) Veteran: There might have been some—there were some officers there but…maybe 10 or 12 officers. But the rest of the plane was full of enlisted men. Interviewer: Alright. But were they—were there just a few of you who were medical corpsmen and the rest were just regular grunts? Or…? Veteran: It was mixed. There were corpsmen on there, there was infantry, there was probably people there that were going to be in tanks. Artillery people. I mean, it was a mixture of everything. Interviewer: Alright. And you’re going over there essentially as replacements. You’re going go and join units that are in the field? Veteran: We were all replacements. Interviewer: Alright. �Veteran: And it was…We flew from Okinawa and landed in Vietnam. We are now in the Republic of Vietnam. Interviewer: And where did you land? Veteran: And it was in Da Nang. Interviewer: Da Nang. Okay. Veteran: And he was taxiing down the runway and it’s just getting hotter and hotter in the plane. And we were going, “I hope he turns the air conditioning on before too long.” And he comes to a stop and he says, “We are now turning the air conditioning off.” And it—as soon as he turned it off, the heat index immediately went to the roof. We had 4 men pass out from the heat. We could hardly wait to get out of the plane. It felt like you were being baked. It’s what it did. And when we got to the outside, it was just as hot outside as it was inside that plane. There was very little relief. There was a little bit of wind but it was—it was—they told us it was 110. So, it—leaving Michigan in February, it was 28 degrees and now we were in 110 degrees. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: I believe in 1968, the average temperature for the whole year was 115. Interviewer: The average high probably. Veteran: The average—yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, now what did they do with you? You get off the plane. Now what happens? (00:28:13) Veteran: When I got off—when we got off the plane—we went into a large room and just sat around. This was where you were going to get your orders and where you were going to go. And �we are just sitting around, waiting for them to call our names. And they called out they were looking for volunteers. And we need corpsmen to go to Force Recon. And so, I said, “Okay.” I said, “I’ll do that.” And I was getting up to go and they’re—I am sitting with 4 other Marines and they all said, “Doc, sit down. You’re not volunteering for that.” I said, “Oh no? Why?” He says, “Trust us. You’re not volunteering for that.” So, I sat down and I ended up being assigned to a company called 4th Shore Party, an HST Company which was—they handled the logistics for the Marines out in the field. And they usually send—there was like 4 or 5 guys that would go on every operation or any large sweep that they needed to resupply with. And all—whatever they needed, they gave it to our radioman and he called it in and they’d send choppers in to resupply them. Whether it was ammo, medical supplies for me, food, anything that they needed was coordinated through 4th Shore Party in this area. So, that’s where I was assigned. And pretty much, I went with the company—people and companies—I went with was like the 3rd Marines. On one operation with the 5th Marines, the 27th Marines, the 9th Marines, and the 26th Marines. So, I was with a lot of different units for short periods of time when they needed to be resupplied. And that’s where, when we went out in the field, and whenever we had action, I would leave my small unit and go to where the fighting was so I could help the other corpsmen do their job. (00:30:24) Interviewer: Okay. So, you’re there nominally as corpsman for the people out of your own unit? Veteran: Right. Interviewer: But then when something happens, then you’re a corpsman— Veteran: That’s what I do. �Interviewer: --and you kind of go where needed. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, where did they actually have you based when you get to Vietnam? Veteran: We were actually based—4th Shore Party was actually right across from a place called Freedom Hill, where we called it Freedom Hill. And it was just outside a village we called Dog Patch. That is—I believe it was southwest of Da Nang. Interviewer: Alright. And physically, what was the country like around there? Veteran: Where I was, it was a lot of rice paddies that were dry. Some of them had water in them but very few. It was an extremely dry year in 1968 apparently. Mountainous. And once you got towards the mountains, there was a jungle. Pretty much that was about it. Interviewer: Okay. Now, what was the date when you arrived? Veteran: I arrived in country February 4th, 1968. Interviewer: Okay. And that’s going to be right after the start of the Tet Offensive. Veteran: It was 4 days after the start of the Tet Offensive. Interviewer: Now, was there much going on in your sector at that point? Or was it elsewhere in the country? Veteran: No. Actually, the other corpsmen said, “Boy, you just missed it. Last night they blew up an ammo dump and you could see it: flames and everything.” Yeah, we were just—they hit further north. Now, I know in Tet they hit a lot of different areas all the way down. But they didn’t do Da Nang quite as bad as what they did other places. So, I guess it was—we were kind �of like, you know, lucky. In a little bit lucky area. The areas around us, some of them, which were called Happy Valley, which by the way was not a happy valley. A lot of Vietnamese there. Elephant Valley, Dodge City, Arizona Territory. That was in an area called province—I think it was a province called Thuong Duc. And that—all of that was west and—west and southwest of Da Nang. (00:32:50) Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you in a base camp of some kind that you reported in? Or…? Veteran: I was in a battalion. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that’s a large base camp. A company is roughly 187 men. And a battalion takes up or makes up 3 companies and a command group. So, yeah, there was about 400, maybe a little more, plus or minus to be exact. About 400 men there. Interviewer: Okay. At least as long as the units are at full strength, which they are not always. Veteran: My first assignment was—the first thing I did was they brought me to supply and I got a helmet, I got the flak jacket, and I got a .45 with a one clip for the .45 and two spares and a box of .45 ammo. Which, okay, that was fine. And everything—I am still in the mode that this is— we are still playing soldier. And so, they said, “Well, it’s time for you to go to your first assignment. We want you to go on a mine sweep because this is one of the things that this battalion also did.” So, I said, “Sure. Let’s go.” And then we went to by Marble Mountain. There was a battalion area there of 3rd LVTs. (00:34:23) �Veteran: And right outside Marble Mountain. And then there was a little village right next to that, right in front of the camp. So, that’s where we stayed when we were on this mine sweep. So, we would sweep the road through the village and go around up Highway 1 for about a mile and a half. And we would do that every morning. And that is not—it wasn’t bad duty because that is all you had to do all day. You could play cards. You could go to Enlisted Men’s Club. You could do anything. So, that’s not so bad. And that’s what I did for about 4 days. It was great. On the 5th day, this truck hit a mine. Now, the Marine’s mine sweepers were great for picking up metal. But they weren’t great for picking up hard, solid objects that weren’t metal. And the gooks knew this. So, they would build a mine out of wood with the explosive. Well that’s what this—it was a command detonated explosion. And it blew up a truck. And the first guy that I got to looked like he was slumped over in the front seat, or what was left of the front seat. And there was just—it was a bloody mess all over. And I reached over and pulled him and he had lost—he was—lost his head. It had a crooked jawline up here like this to the lower part, middle part, of the ear and all of this was gone. That was my first casualty. First guy I turned over. It…That was a shock. To say the least, that was a shock. But there was another guy there that I had to treat. So, I treated him. (00:36:18) Veteran: Actually, the one that was killed was horrible but the guy that was right next to him had two new deep cuts in his arm and that was it. Which was nice for this guy but—so, I put a battle dressing on and took care of him. But we looked for this man’s head for about 20 minutes and we couldn’t find it. And then I started to get scared. This was a place where I might not be able to get out of…alive, anyway. Now, I knew I stopped playing soldier at that moment. And then it was quite serious from that point on. �Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were on a mission like this, were you spending nights out in the field? Was there another base camp or…? Veteran: They had—this aid station had 12 other corpsmen. But there was 3 of us that we were alternating in and out of the field. And I would work—they—this was easy duty usually, the mine sweep team. So, you would go out there and spend a week or two then come in and go on an operation. And I actually left after that incident. 5 days later, I went back to my base camp and they asked me would I go on operations and I said yes. So, my first operation was nice. It was not bad. It was off of Hill 110, which to be honest with you, I am not sure the location. But it is in around Hill 55. It is all south—south and southwest—of Da Nang. So, we jumped off Hill 110 and we were gone about 4 days out in the field. Couldn’t—didn’t see anything. It was just— turned out to be, you know, a long, hot walk in the middle of the jungle and then we came back. (00:38:29) Veteran: And we were going to stay on Hill 110 for a day and a half so they could come pick us up with trucks because they weren’t sure if they were going to use us on another operation right off the bat or not. So, that night they woke us up and we were in a tent on cots and they woke us up and said, “Get in the holes.” A hole is a foxhole. And so, we all did. Apparently, military intelligence, which later we would call an oxymoron, but military intelligence says there was a lot of movement around Hill 110. And we may be getting hit. So, we are all in there, waiting around. It’s—waiting for something to happen. And I get called, “Corpsman! Corpsman!” Nothing happened yet. And so, I run down to this other foxhole and apparently—I mean, I am getting nervous up there and apparently this guy was really getting nervous because he was hyperventilating. And the only way I could get him to stop was I took a large battle dressing and I—they were encased in plastic. So, I just—I took one, I took the plastic off the battle dressing �and I made a little bag out of it and I said, “Blow on this. Just breathe in and out with this and it will slow you down.” And then, the guy next to him, I said, “If he passes out, don’t worry about it because his breathing will go back to normal and he is just going to wake up.” But this guy is blowing in this bag and he’s slowing down. I said, “The only thing I want you guys to know is if you see gooks coming our way, shoot straight.” And then I went back to my hole. (00:40:28) Veteran: Well, about an hour and a half later, we start getting hit with mortars. And the mortars just—they came in from everywhere and they were hitting all areas of Hill 110. And we had a couple wounded and we got them to the aid station. I threw a battle dressing on them and we got them to the aid station where there is a doctor on the hill. And then, went back to the hole. And it died down for about what seemed to be like a half hour. And then they started walking them in on the wire. Now, there is concertina wire which is the same thing as barbed wire only it is a lot sharper, razor sharp. And it’s, the area where we are, it’s got concertina wire all the way around in front of us. And they walked the mortars in and they knocked one of the largest holes in that fence. And we just knew that we were going to be seeing gooks any time. Well, nothing happened. And it really, I mean, it was wide open but nothing happened. Well, as it turned out, later that—earlier that day—General Westmoreland was actually visiting the commander of Hill 110. And General Westmoreland left. And we thought that when the gooks still thought he was there and they were trying to get him. And when they found out that he wasn’t there, it wasn’t worth their sacrifice to try to take the hill. So, the attack never happened. (00:42:22) Veteran: But the next morning, when we went back to the tent where we were sleeping, and that tent was just like swiss cheese. And the cot that I was sleeping in, you could not—there was not a space open. If I would sit on it, I would fall through. It was like a—it was just riddled with �holes from shrapnel. So, that was—I considered myself really, really lucky. And then later that morning, we got picked up and I went back to our battalion headquarters again. Interviewer: Now, in this area, were you going in and out on trucks or did they use helicopters? Veteran: Both. Most of the time, if you took a truck, you were going to a specific location, some battalion area where you were going to kick off the operation. We did that on a number of occasions. They would drive you to Hill 110 and then you started humping from Hill 110 to wherever you wanted, wherever you were going to go. And on one occasion, they did that. It was—they gave us a USO Show. We were already there, waiting to get ready to go. And then all of a sudden, they decide we are going to throw you a USO Show. And everybody is having a good old time and, all of a sudden, it started dawning on everybody: why are they doing this? Why are they making these things so nice right now? And all the levity, it totally changed. And it didn’t matter what those people did on stage, it was dead quiet. Everybody was starting to think about what was—where we were going. And it was a good thing because we ended up going to Happy Valley that night. humping into it. (00:44:20) Interviewer: Okay. Now to back up a little bit, when you got into Vietnam, did they give you any kind of ‘Welcome to Vietnam’ orientation? Was there any sort of training that you got to prepare you to go into the field? Veteran: No. They did orientate us about Vietnam and the biggest thing they were worried about was syphilis. Gonorrhea. Venereal disease. “You will stay away from the women. Because if you don’t stay away from the women”—this was a big speech that we had— “you will get black syphilis. And if you get black syphilis, you can’t go home. They’re going to send you to an �island and they’re going to tell your parents that you died.” And this is what they were trying to tell me and I knew better. And I kind of like laughed it off. And but these guys, some of these Marines were paying really close attention. And there was no such thing as black syphilis. Never was. But they were trying to keep them away from the villages, is what they were doing. Interviewer: Alright. So— Veteran: Or, trying to keep—let’s—they were trying to keep the venereal disease down. Interviewer: Right. But they weren’t doing anything in terms of jungle survival training or other stuff like that? Veteran: No, they didn’t do—no. That’s…Unfortunately, that’s on the job training. And you learn really quick. Interviewer: Alright. So, take us into Happy Valley then. Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, that was…That was where I got introduced to more mortar fire and small arms fire. It was a no-named operation. It was just—just a sweep. And it lasted 7 days. Maybe. 6 or 7. You lose track of time real easy. And we got into free fire fights. And we had to medevac 4 or 5, which wasn’t bad. Nobody was killed. We had 4 or 5 wounded. (00:46:32) Veteran: Never saw anybody that we killed. If we killed anybody. You know, it was just hard fire fight, stopped, and when we got over to the ground, sometimes you could see blood trails. Sometimes you couldn’t see anything at all. A blood trail would tell us okay, well at least we either wounded somebody or they carried away their dead. And they liked to carry away their dead so you don’t know what you’re getting. �Interviewer: Alright. Now, when they got into fire fights, would they then bring in artillery or air support? Or were you just the guys on the ground? Veteran: Sometimes the fire fight would start and finish so fast…A lot of people think, you know, if they see a battle on tv or something, they think it lasts for hours and…But a lot of times, the fire fight alone will, you know, it will only last for a minute or so or less sometimes. It is just like bang! And then it is done. Sometimes it did last a lot. We were in certain areas under certain conditions where you needed artillery, you needed helicopters to come in for—with their support. Our artillery was pretty good. And if you give them the correct coordinates, and emphasis on correct coordinates, they would hit and they would hit what you wanted them to hit. And it was—they were ready to help if you needed help. There was also a time where Snoopy came in and Snoopy was a 130 cargo jet [note: the C-130 was propeller driven] that was fitted with mini guns and just kind of like flew in the—flew around. I mean, he could hit anything you wanted. And each mini gun fired, I was told, 5000 rounds a minute. And there was one time where we were hunkering down waiting and it didn’t look good until all of a sudden out of this clear blue sky, here comes Snoopy and things changed dramatically then. It’s—he made all the difference in the world. (00:48:51) Interviewer: So, do you have kind of a fairly regular cycle then of going on short and long patrols? And so forth? Veteran: You didn’t know if it was going to be a long patrol or short patrol. There was—it would depend on contact, mostly. Because the goal of the Marines was to make contact and kill the enemy. So, you really didn’t know whether you were going to be out for 4 days or 4 weeks. I know I went on one operation that, actually, it strung out for a real long time. Went on one operation and we went up in the hills. They called it ‘hill.’ A 1275. It was a mountain. But we �had to climb to the top because the enemy was supposed to be on top of this hill and we were going to climb up there and take it. Well, it was muddy and the mud was clay. So, every time you got so far up, you would slide down and you actually had to grab ahold of vines and roots from trees in order to get yourself up. And it took us all day to get to the top of that hill. And thank God, there was nobody up there when we got up there. The worst casualty I had that day was in the middle of the night, a Marine got—woke up screaming because he got cramps in both his legs and he couldn’t stop it so I had to sit on him in order to straighten out his legs so we could relieve his cramps. And that was the worst part of the casualty. (00:50:35) Veteran: And it was cold and rainy. And when I say it’s cold, it had to have been about only 80 degrees. And believe me, it is amazing how you can shiver in 80 degrees. It was very cold. But we searched the place; found nothing. And they said, “Okay, we are going to take you off the hill.” And so, choppers came to pick us up and we are going to put you on another operation that’s in the Go Noi Island area. That was a—they called it Go Noi Island because it wasn’t really an island. It was usually dry and had a couple rivers running by it. But in a rainy season, they would flood and it would totally make it an island just during the rainy season. So, they called it Go Noi Island, or at least that’s what our powers to be did. And so, when we finally got down into the heat and we were relaxing a little bit, they said, “Okay, we are going.” And then we took off. And it turned out to be we were going to be—it was a search and destroy. We were going to sweep through 3 villages, relocate the people, and then we were going to destroy the villages. They were all confirmed VC. So, that’s what we started: we started sweeping in off of Liberty Bridge. Liberty Bridge was a bridge that was very—just southwest—I keep saying southwest but it was just southwest of Da Nang. I forgot the name of the river that we needed so �that we could cross into the Go Noi Island. And we started our sweep and we started and we took 3rd LVTs with us. These were like landing crafts, like ducks. (00:52:36) Interviewer: Yeah. Were they tracked? Veteran: Yep, with tracks. And so, they were with us with this sweep. And we started getting harassing mortar fire and small arms fire. And it was strictly harassing. And that happened all afternoon and stopped and started again about early evening. And they called in jets in order to drop some bombs. But it was kind of unusual this time because usually when they see the jets, you know they are running. This time, they were shooting back at the jets as they were diving down. You could hear the small arms fire going—and they weren’t going towards us. They were shooting at the jets as they were coming. And made us a little nervous because that was unusual. At least, we thought it was unusual. So, we weren’t sure what to expect. And the next day—well, we made camp, dug in, and then we picked up in the middle of the night with very little noise and moved about 200 yards away from where we were. And about 2 hours later, or a short time later, mortars just started dropping in on our old position. And the arc light—we must have had a pretty smart colonel that was leading us. And we went back to the area first the next day. We went back to our old area and in the foxhole that I had dug, a mortar blew up. And I tell you, I had cold chills going down my back. (00:54:30) Veteran: So, we started our sweep again. Picked up from where we left off. And we were getting close to the first village and we start receiving small arms fire. And so, there was a fire fight that lasted about 20-25 minutes when we finally got started into that first village. Didn’t find anybody. Saw some blood. Didn’t find anybody, not even villagers. And out there were animals and that. It was like everybody fled. And so, they burned all the hootches. And dropped explosive down the well to blow the well up. And burned anything that could be used as food or �whatever. And continued on with our sweep. We got to the outskirts of the second…Just—or, the outskirts of that first village and we ran into, the small group that I was with, we ran into a family that was hiding in a bomb shelter. And we had an interpreter with us. And they pulled them all out and they started questioning them and I just was kind of like watching what they were doing when we started getting fired upon. Our area, you know, we all hit the ground and scattered for whatever protection we could find. And I crawled next to a bush line. Usually you talk about tree line? Well, this was a bush line and a hedgerow. And I tried to get down as low as I could because the firing started coming in my direction. (00:56:20) Veteran: And I was on my back and I am trying to dig in like this with as far—to get down as low as I could. And I am right next to the hedge line. The bushes were hanging over my head. And it made it very difficult to see me. And—but that was still—shots were still coming in my direction. And I just happened to look up and I was—I have this leaf about this far over my nose. And I just kind of focused on it. And then it was gone. That’s how close they were coming. And the Marines—there was like 4 or 5 others with me that stayed to interrogate these people. And they started firing in all directions because they weren’t quite sure where it was coming from. And I shot—I was shooting my .45 just, you know, okay I might not hit anything but maybe the noise will scare them. And they were close enough to where you could hear them messing with their weapons. You couldn’t see them but they were close enough to where this one had his—it must have been an AK-47—because it was an automatic that was shooting. And as—it was jammed. And we rose up instantly and started leaving the area, running out of the area, which was a good thing because they were—we no more than got out of where we were, mortars were dropping in the area where we were and they were walking them up behind us. And we were running. Ended up running through a cemetery. Vietnamese, I was told, they bury their dead �sitting up. Most of the old ways, they bury their dead sitting up. And I don’t know the religious reasons why but their gravesites are about 3-4 feet, maybe 4 feet, in diameter. They are round. And maybe 18 inches high off the ground. (00:58:35) Veteran: And we were running through this cemetery and jumping over graves and these mortars are getting really close. And I just fell behind one of the graves and a mortar hit on the other side of the grave. Run my clock, so to speak, really well. And when I looked up, I think I passed out for a couple seconds. There was dirt everywhere. And I just decided I couldn’t hear. And—but it was all—it was too quiet. I couldn’t hear nothing. So, I got up and ran. Outran the mortars but I still couldn’t hear anything. I could see other Marines and that but I couldn’t hear them. And I couldn’t even hear myself talk. And a guy came up to me and he said, “Doc! Someone is hurt!” And I had to yell at him, “What?!” And then he had—he finally had to—knew it, and yelled back loud enough to where I heard muffled. My hearing was coming back but it was just…It was— really shook my hearing. So, he said, “No, there’s a—one of the guys got wounded. And he’s back where you came from.” So, I said, “You stay here. I don’t want to work on two guys.” So, I ran back through the mortars. And the guy had a sucking chest wound. He was laying on his— laying up against a small hill and when we got there, we checked him over and it was his left side. You could see the air bubbling out of his chest. (01:00:26) Veteran: And it sounds really serious. For first aid, it is a real easy fix. You just plug up the air loss where the air—you’re losing air in your body. And then, I did that with the plastic on a battle dressing and just tightened. Put a battle dressing on him really, really tight. You know. And made him lay on that side so he could breathe easier. And then we picked him up on his good arm and another corpsman had come up just at the same time. And he grabbed the other �arm and we ran through the mortars again until we could get safely—him safely—out of the way. But you couldn’t stay there. So… Interviewer: Alright. This tape is about up. Did you find that at least once you had your job to do, did things kind of go automatically? I mean, you shift out of your own shock or fear or whatever that was when you were first running away, now into something else? Veteran: Actually yeah, your training kind of like takes over. For us, the training was there is a guy that needs you. You got to get to him. And you forget about everything. What is going on around you. You just concentrate on one thing: you are going to get to that injured guy. Because seconds count. And so, you kind of put blinders on. And it’s kind of cute when you see these movies and they are running like this through battlefield explosions. No, you go in…It is a straight line and that’s it. You make a beeline and that is it. None of this kitty corner things. And it has always worked. I am here today to talk about it so it has worked. (01:02:22) Interviewer: Now after this particular point in the action, did things quiet down for a while or did this just keep going? Veteran: No, we—for the night, it was still. We still got—I medevaced—memory is not so good. Approximately 16 WIAs, Wounded In Action. And we had 4 dead. Interviewer: Now, was this a company-sized sweep or a battalion? Veteran: This was a battalion-sized sweep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I did not—I don’t know where, I didn’t know where, all the companies were. So, I am not sure exactly where they were but it was a whole battalion. Yes. And I believe it was 1-7. �1-2-7. Yeah, 1, 2, and 3 of the 7th Marines. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Battalion of the 7th Marines. And this was 2-7. And so that night, there was harassing mortar fire. Not so much small arms fire, just mortar fire. And one of the LVTs was extremely lucky. RPG, Rocket Propelled Grenade, went through—was fired—at one of these landing craft. And it actually went through one wall and out the other and blew up. And it went through just above where a guy was sleeping. And we thought we were going to have to medevac him just for his nerves because he was really shook up. And he was just lucky enough it went through. Usually, they will go through one wall and blow up. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:04:13) Veteran: But apparently, I think, this gook got close enough to where the momentum of the rocket just pushed it all the way through. And then blew up. Lucky for this guy. But that’s—that next morning, we started going into the second village. And the second and third villages were almost together. They were very close so you almost—looks like one huge one. But there was supposed to be two. And we started getting very hard fire. And again, so there was another fire fight. And it took us about 40 minutes to get into the village. And when we did get into the village, we killed 5 old men. 4 old men and 5 really old ladies. And these—I am talking like grandpas and that and didn’t look like they could have been the ones that were shooting at us. And they had them all lined up. And I saw this mother holding her baby, crying. And I thought she was probably crying for someone who had died. And I noticed that she was holding a baby. And the arm was kind of out flung like this and it wasn’t moving. So, I went over there and I took the baby from the mother and—to see if it was okay. And well…it wasn’t. It was—we killed this infant. Had to have been about no more than 2 days old. I didn’t need to, after I took �her, I knew she was dead. And that was really hard. That was…That was—we killed total innocents with this. There was no enemy here. (01:06:24) Interviewer: Now, were these casualties from bombardment or from small arms fire? Veteran: Small arms fire. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I gave her—I gave the baby back to the mother and I tried to tell her that it was…I was sorry and—but she was just not paying attention to anything. She’s…just was crying full out then. And with—that baby has bothered me since that day. I had her blood all over my hands and my shirt. And that infant had a profound affect on me. Now, did I pull the trigger? No. But we were the ones that did it. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And I didn’t really think it was going to be bothering me after I got out of Vietnam but it effected the way I—for my own kids, I couldn’t hold them when they were babies. I kept seeing this little girl. And that was really hard. That was exceptionally hard. I couldn’t believe we did this. And then, the Marines now are going through all the hutches—the hooches—and setting them on fire. They’re blowing up the wells. They are kicking over the food, collecting all—the villagers were in these villages and they were collecting all the people and putting them all over in one area where trucks were going to come and relocate them. And when we were doing this, what snapped me out of it a little bit…A Marine came up to me and said there was this little girl and she was really sick. (01:08:31) �Veteran: And this little girl was about 13. 12 or 13—something like that. She was young. And she had extreme pain in the lower right quadrant. And she had a fever and another corpsman was—came up at the same time that I was, or came with me—and we felt her and then I felt her lower quadrant and it was extremely hot. And the only thing that we could think of is her—she is having an appendicitis attack. And the way it feels, it is going to burst. So, I told a Marine that was nearby, “Go get an interpreter.” And we started getting her ready so we could get her a chopper in here for emergency medevac to get her to a hospital. And this mother is just fighting with us. She just knows we are going to do the worst things to her daughter and end up killing her. But we are—I showed her my—I tried to show her my caduceus to, you know. I wore it on the collar. It is a battlefield caduceus. It is black. But I tried to show her that. She didn’t understand. But we were—we were—we got a cot and put the baby, or the girl, down and we were going to just bring her over to a chopper once the chopper started coming. And we couldn’t find the interpreter. The guy was not coming so we said, “We got to get her over to the area where the chopper is coming.” So, we went over to the area and the mother is coming with us. And she’s crying and she is fighting with us. I got a Marine that is holding her, her arms pinned. And she is fighting with all she can with this guy to try to get her daughter. She just says— knew—that we were going to kill her. That’s all she thought. (01:10:31) Veteran: And then, to get to the landing zone, we went right by these 200 villagers. And they were old men, old women, young women, and kids. And it was unbelievable. They all thought the same thing. And they all started crying. And I mean, it was more like a wail. I mean, tears were just pouring out of their heads. They were screaming. And all we wanted to do was just try to save this little girl. And it was the hardest thing. It was surreal. I couldn’t believe what was going on. We finally got an interpreter. He was coming up as we were putting the girl on the �chopper and this mother, right now, still doesn’t know what’s going on. She is hysterical. And finally, it took about 10 minutes for this interpreter to convince this mother we were trying to help her rather than kill her. And she was so worried that when she goes, I will never see her again. And I looked at the crew chief, I said, “Mother is going too.” And so, we—then the mother really calmed down a lot when we got her into the chopper with her daughter. But that whole…there had to be close to 200 people there, and they are all crying. They think now we are going to kill the mother and the daughter. And it was like…That was a time where I felt like I am up here watching me down there do whatever I had to do. (01:12:23) Veteran: It was—I just couldn’t believe I was seeing what I was seeing. That was hard to take. Those poor villagers. They just knew we were going to…We were going to kill them. I mean, after all, hell, we just went in there and destroyed their livelihood. Why would they think we were doing something good? And so you know, I actually thought at that time, you know, if we are doing this, we are on the wrong side. We are supposed to be helping these guys and we are not making friends here. We are making enemies here. I really figured we were going to lose back in 1968 at that time. And this was early May. That—because we were fighting for the wrong people. It was a really hard time for me. Interviewer: Now, after—now does the operation then kind of wind down after that? Because you have got— Veteran: No, this operation finally got a name and it was called Allen Brook. Allen Brook… Apparently, Go Noi Island was an area where the North would like to build up troops. And we had heard then that they were going to hit Da Nang like they did Huế in a mini Tet when half the year, I guess it was, instead of New Year it was half the year. And they were going to hit Da Nang like they did Huế. And we actually went, accidentally, right into them. They—I think they �were surprised and we were surprised. Now, after we went through this village, we started going into the tree lines. And when we were approaching a tree line, we got in a horrendous fire fight. (01:14:27) Veteran: And I have to tell you at the time, the temperature in Allen Brook really had a strong effect on…It was hot. It was extremely hot. It was above—around 110 or hotter. And in some valleys, it got as hot as 120, I guess. At least that is what I was told. But when the guys would fall on the ground in order to protect themselves and shoot back, the heat would come up and hit them in the face and they would pass out. That fire fight lasted a good hour. I ended up medevacing 44 wounded and 16 dead. And that was just the start of it. We started getting harassing mortar attacks, constant ambushes. But we had good—the colonel that was in charge of that battalion actually called up division and said, “Is it okay? We will pull out. We are getting an awful lot of contact.” They said, “No, you cannot pull out just because of the contact. It is good contact. You’re going to stay.” And I was still in there for about 10 days. And it was constant fire. We would march in a line and when we were coming up to a tree line or a hedgerow, we would get ready as best you could. And because when we got close enough, we were going to get into a fire fight. (01:16:21) Veteran: They had control of the ground area. They had caves everywhere. They knew the whole layout of the land and it was all…You know, we are here for the first time, like…And we weren’t fighting just the VC, we were fighting NVA soldiers. And they knew what they were doing. We—about the 4th…Time screws things up. After that fire fight, I medevaced all those guys. There was 9 corpsmen that started that operation with me. And we were down to 2. And there was a corpsman that had more time in country than I. He and I were talking and decided that okay, if he sees me going after a guy, he stays back. Or if I see him going after a guy, he �stays back because if we both go, until we get more relief and more corpsmen in here, we are the only 2. And we also made it a pact that as soon as everything was quiet, he and I would check all the wounded, just to make sure they were going to be good before—they would still be alive when the choppers came to get them out. And we went and were checking the wounded towards—it was like late afternoon, about this light out. It had about 3 hours of light left in the day and everything had quieted down so we were checking the wounded before the choppers came to lift them off. And I walked up to this one guy and he had both legs blown off above the knees. It was all in shreds from about mid-thigh down. And I immediately went to the tourniquets and, unfortunately, I could slide my hand under one and so I tightened them up like they should have been, as tight as I could get them on both of them. (01:18:42) Veteran: And checked his pulse. He wasn’t…I could feel a pulse but very faint. But he wasn’t doing good. And I called over for the other corpsman and I said, “Check his pulse. I think I felt one. I am not sure.” That is how light it was. “And I don’t feel it.” And so, we started CPR on him right away because I felt again and I might have felt my own pulse because I really pressed hard into his neck in order to feel it. And so, we started CPR on him. I was doing the heart and he was doing the breathing. And after a while, we switched because I was getting tired. And another Marine came up and was also helping us as best that he could. And I said, “You got to breathe for him for a little bit because we got to do a cutdown. We got to try and get some blood into him.” And—or, blood expanders. And that’s all we had. And I tried to get a vein and I couldn’t find a vein anywhere. And I—the other corpsman said, “Maybe we should do a cutdown.” Which is—we would take a scalpel and slice his arm here and then find a vein that way. And then put the needle in the vein. And so, that’s exactly what I did and I still couldn’t find a vein. I cut him really deep and I couldn’t find the vein. And he died. I don’t know if he �was dead already but he had to have been…I wanted so bad to find the guy that put the tourniquet on. I wanted to kill him. I know the guy was trying to save him. But you really got to put a tourniquet on good. (01:20:39) Veteran: You’re going to hurt the person to stop that blood. And you know, it was like we worked on this guy. It was dark, just about dark, by the time we stopped working on this guy. And I never felt more down in all my life. Interviewer: Now, did they get you out after that? Veteran: Because he…Hmmm? Because he…They count on you to save them. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: You know? I mean…And it is really hard when you can’t. I don’t remember the guys I saved. I remember the guys I lost. So, it was a pretty bad time. In fact, I was so low I…We were going back to our little area where we were going to spend the night and a guard yelled out, “Who goes there?” And I said, “Well, if you’re really good, you can shoot 2 corpsmen.” And I didn’t—at that time, I didn’t care if he shot me or not. That’s how bad I felt. But the next day, it is…There is going to be somebody that is going to need you. So, you just kind of like suck it up. That’s what you do. And that’s what I did. I sucked it up. And—because the next day wasn’t any better than the last. And we were in constant fire fights for going back and forth on that island. That’s all we did. We went from east to west and west to east. And got in all kinds of fire fights. Got in mortar attacks. And they finally decided, you know, these landing craft are pretty damn good targets. Why don’t we send them out of here. And so, they sent them out of here. 2 hours later we get a call—they get a call—on the radio saying that they got hit. (01:22:43) �Veteran: They’re in an ambush, they need help. So, we dropped everything. We have tanks with us so we are running behind the tanks in all this heat. And it takes us almost 2 hours to get to them. And once we link up—well, the ambush wasn’t for them. Interviewer: Oh… Veteran: The ambush was for us. They just kept going at them until we came and they had everything zeroed in. And when the mortars came down, it was direct hit all over the place. And it was in the middle of a dried-out rice paddy. And everybody is going for cover and I am going for cover. And I fall on my knees and I am going into a dike to get as close to the bottom of the dike as I could to get as much protection. And a mortar went off on the other side and I am on my knees and the next thing I know I am shaking my head and I am facing the other direction. It felt like someone had taken a baseball bat and hit me in the face. Well, I got a piece of shrapnel right here. And I was extremely lucky it didn’t go through my eye and into my brain. So…But I am bleeding really good. And I am really dazed and I don’t know what is going on yet. And I got one of my Marines yelling, “Corpsman!” So, I turn around and he’s working on some guys that are wounded. And he looks at me and says, “No, stay there. It’s okay.” (01:24:26) Veteran: And I just…I finally came to my senses and just said—I just said, “Fuck it.” And I grabbed my unit 1, which is the first aid kit. In the Navy, that is what we call our aid kits, is unit 1s. And I grabbed my unit 1 and went to the wounded, who turned out to be my lieutenant who was out there in the field with me. And I am working on him and he got up wounded and he is in shock and his right arm. And I am working on him and he is not—he’s out. He’s not with it at all so he had to have had part of a concussion or at least a severe concussion at the time. And I am just getting a battle dressing on and they start walking in mortars again and there is no place to go because I can’t leave him and he can’t go. So, I spread my flak jacket out and I lay over on �top of him and just covered my—I had my helmet on—and just covered it up like this. And stayed that way and got lucky nothing was…No shrapnel anywhere. And so, he started coming around finally and I finished the battle dressing on. And I figured okay, I am going to have to carry him. So, I start to pick him up and the mortars start coming in again. So, I lay him back down and I go right back over on top of him, just like I did before. It’s a 50/50 chance: 50% you could get hit, 50% you can’t. Well, I was on the good side again so when the mortars started letting up, I started to go to pick him up and he opened up his eyes and he said, “Doc!” which was a good sign. And I said, “Yeah, we got to get the hell out of here.” And I got him on his feet and put his good arm around my shoulder and around his waist and we got to a safer place. We…At the same time, there were 14 other wounded, 2 of which were very bad. And we had a really hard time stopping their bleeding. (01:26:42) Veteran: In fact, we stopped the—both of them were leg wounds. And one, his arm was almost tore off. And we got the bleeding stopped once and then it just started up again. And so, we worked hard and really had to almost put a tourniquet on him. His leg. But we got it stopped. The battle dressing—let’s just say the battle dressing was extremely tight. And I was wounded. And a chopper came in and picked up the other guys and I was putting them on, you know, and that other corpsman said, “Get on the chopper.” I said, “Get on the chopper?” He said, “Get on the chopper! We got 2 guys down there that if that bleeding starts again, they’re going to die and you’re wounded. So, get on the chopper.” And so, I was medevaced to the hospital. In fact, I helped the other corpsmen once we landed at the hospital. They come rushing into help you and I helped them carry these guys in on stretchers. I had one guy—he checked my face. He said, “Damn! You’re lucky. Another quarter of an inch and that would have gone right through.” I said, “Tell me. Yeah, I know. I was really lucky.” I didn’t feel really lucky. But I guess I really �was. And I wanted to get back out in the field. Okay, I did what I was supposed to do. So, I was going to spend the night at this hospital. And this is the hospital that was near Marble Mountain. (01:28:34) Veteran: Extremely safe. The bunkers there—a rocket could hit on top of them and you would just get dust. I mean, they were that strong. And we were…I was going to spend the night there at the hospital. Well, they started getting rocketed. And I got in a bunker and I was—it was a bunker that I was all by myself. It was pitch black in there. Or at least, I thought I was all by myself. And I am leaning up against the wall with my legs crouched up and my arms around my legs because I couldn’t—I was holding myself so tight, I couldn’t stop shaking. And I wanted to stop shaking. And I felt…bad because I was shaking. I felt like a coward because I was…I was that afraid. I was just glad that nobody could see what I was doing. I mean, I was humiliated. I couldn’t…You know, I had to stop shaking. Well, I stayed there the whole night. And about dawn the next morning, I climbed out of the bunker and went to the road and hitchhiked. Picked up a truck, or the truck picked me up. And I said, “I want to go to 4th Shore Party by Freedom Hill. Can you get me there?” “Yeah, no problem. Going that way anyway.” And he drops me off. And I walk in—I am walking into my battalion area—and they are all looking at me. They are all surprised to see me because word came in, they radioed it in, I was medevaced out, shrapnel to the face. And the first thing you think of if you got shrapnel to the face, like half his face is gone. (01:30:42) Veteran: And my doctor had to look at me, the doctor that’s in charge of the brigades, and he said, “You’re really lucky.” I was finally getting to the point, “Yeah, I was really lucky.” And I said, “I just—I got to get back out to the field. There is only one guy there, one other corpsman, and we need more.” So, they rustled up an ambulance and brought me to Hill 55. That’s where �this operation was jumped off at. And that’s where all the supply choppers came and that’s where we put all the supplies on. So, I waited for a CH-46 to come in, which is a banana shaped helicopter, and I hitched a ride back out there when they were bringing supplies. And the first thing everybody that I was with, they looked at me and said, “What the hell are you doing back out in this field?” I said, “Well, we are needed.” And we started joking around and the tank was moving in the back. And I—maybe 50-60 yards away all of a sudden, a huge explosion. And I looked up and I saw the tank up like this. And it came back down. So, I grabbed my unit 1 and I went over there. Someone was going to be hurt. Well, other than concussions, which we medevaced them out for because some of the bleeding was coming out their ears and they were bleeding through the nose, and a lot of them had bumps and bruises. We med—the crew of 4, we medevaced 2 of them. The other 2 were bumped up but they were okay. And we really felt that these guys got to get out of here. So, we shipped them off. (01:32:31) Veteran: And I went back to the guys and I said, “See? That’s why I am here.” They were a good bunch of guys. They always looked out for me. And one of the guys names that I do remember, and I will tell you why later, his name was Pool. Melvin Pool. He was an extremely close friend. And well, he ended up dying later. And he would—he was going to make sure that I had my hole dug first. When we stopped for the night, I would go around and check everybody; make sure that they had their salt pills, their malaria stuff. I would make—if we were going through water, I would check their feet, make sure that they didn’t have immersion foot or anything else that was wrong. And he would be—his hole—my hole was dug first and then he would dig his. We did everything. When we were on the mine sweep teams, we would play poker together. I mean, we’d spend up nights, just talking. Interviewer: So, he was a guy actually in your unit or in your— �Veteran: He was. He was with 4th Shore Party. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Yeah. He was one of the guys that used to go out in the field with me. And he was a super nice guy. And about this time, the Marine Corps had started another operation and it was in close to the same area. In fact, the operations were so close, I wasn’t sure if I was on Allen Brook and this other operation, which was named Mameluke Thrust. And both these operations were so close and in the same area. Both of them were in…I guess you could say that when Allen Brook was winding down, Mameluke Thrust was picking up. (01:34:31) Veteran: And this one, Mameluke Thrust, was really in Thuong Duc Province. And that’s where Happy Valley is. And apparently, they were—we thought at Go Noi Island, it was what they were going to hit, Da Nang. Well, it wasn’t. It was Thuong Duc area where they were building up to hit Da Nang. And it just, it was the same thing: it was one fire fight after another. It was mortar attacks. It was always harassing. It would be a voracious fire fight. And then there wouldn’t be anything. I finally got relieved, only because of my brother. He’s got—he had malaria. And I—the only reason I got relieved was I got this call saying, “You better get back and see your brother. He’s got malaria.” So, they relieved me. And I’d go in and I’d see my brother at the malaria ward. And he tells me that, “I am glad that—I knew you were in a lot of shit,” he said. “Your guys from your battalion came over here to see you and the only Jakubczak they had in the hospital was in the malaria ward and they are telling all these people that he came in here with shrapnel to the face. And he—they finally brought him to the malaria ward and told him we are looking for a Jakubczak with your—a guy with your last name.” And he said, “Is that Dick?” Because that’s what he always called me. And they said, “Yeah.” He said, “That’s my �brother.” So, they searched that hospital from top to bottom, including the morgue. They were looking for me. And I didn’t tell anybody hey, I was leaving. I just left. (01:36:26) Veteran: And so, I went and saw him. He said, “Don’t worry about it.” He said, “When I knew you went back, I figured you were okay so I wrote the folks at home. I said, ‘Dick got hit with shrapnel to the face but don’t worry about it; he’s okay.’” My older brother was like that. I had to write a letter to say, ‘Yes, it was a very small piece of shrapnel. You can’t even see it where it hit my face. So, don’t worry about me.’ In other words, they would have been worried too. But from there, I went back and forth to either Mameluke Thrust or Allen Brook. Because they gave me a few days off and then I went back and I joined another corpsman that usually went out like that. His name was—his nickname was Mississippi. And—because he was from Mississippi. Now, he was an old Hillbilly. Tough old bird too. And he and I stayed together for a few more days and then he finally said, “Okay, you have had enough. You come back. Mississippi is taking over.” Because I had been in the field from end of April all the way through—this was in June. And so. they decided to give me some rest. So, I went back on the mine sweep team. And you—we considered that light duty. And it really was light duty. And we are sweeping the road and it was an unusual morning: no people were around. (01:38:23) Veteran: And usually, when we are going through the end of the village that we passed through every time, we carried fruit for the kids. And the kids would be out there begging for it. They weren’t out there, which made us really, really nervous. And so, we kind of like spread things out a little bit, got further apart, and started our sweep and we were on Highway 1. And we got to this one area where it was a lot of trees and shrubs on the one side and rice paddy on the other. And then, out of the blue like, small arms fire opened up. And 7 guys dropped. And that left me and the radioman. I don’t know why they didn’t get the radioman but they left him and he was �calling for help and I am dragging 1 Marine off the road to the other side for cover. And I grab his M-16 and I am shooting into the woods. Some of the other wounded Marines were shooting into the woods as they crawled off to the other side of the road, because it dropped down and it gave us protection. And the radioman was shooting into the woods as well. And we are all down there and it was just luck that there was a reactionary platoon forming up at the battalion area that was further up the road, no more than ¾ of a mile away. And they were already there. The trucks were there and I think they were there within 5 minutes, or less. And it seemed like 4 hours. A long time. Well, it could have been a whole day but it was only about 5 minutes. And they came in, started spraying the woods, and it was over. There was nothing, you know. (01:40:26) Veteran: And I started working on the wounded. And they came out and I don’t know if we got them or they got them because there was so much shooting. They came in and said, “Hey, we got 4. And got their IDs right here.” They were pulling them out and I said, “Holy crap.” I said, “They were young.” They said, “Yeah, their IDs say they are 11 and 12-year-olds.” Interviewer: Wow. Veteran: And when they opened up, they had AK-47s and they just—I mean, 7 men dropped, just like that. And I don’t know why I wasn’t hit. And I am sure the radioman doesn’t know, especially, doesn’t know why he wasn’t hit. And he’s talking on the radio. So, after that, it was quiet. Then it was a little nicer. But we—afterwards, the guys and I were playing pool, or poker, and because some of them were wounded and went down but they—we just patched them up and they stitched them up and they came back. And we are playing poker. I said, “So much for light duty.” It wasn’t light—it wasn’t so, there was no light duty there for anybody, I don’t think. Yeah, go ahead. �Interviewer: Now, does this…Do things wind down at a certain point? I mean, you had these larger operations that are ongoing. You are dealing with major concentrations of enemy forces but eventually those enemy groups normally will get shot up or leave. Does that calm things down or does it just continue with more of the same? (01:42:12) Veteran: For those, it did calm things down. But those were the two major operations that I was…The biggest. And I think it was the largest in I Corps in 19—for 1968. At least for the Marines that I was with. I guess it turned out that we were supposed to have killed, at the end of those operations, just Allen Brook, we killed 917 of the enemy. We had 187 killed and 1100—a little over a 1100 wounded. And then I think…I know I medevaced when it came to heat. And either heat, it was insect bites, it was—could have been illness. Or somebody just fell and broke a leg or whatever. I think we medevaced of them—had to have been—about another 200. So, I would say that Allen Brook was by far, for me, it was the largest operation I had ever been on. And it lasted, actually, it lasted all the way, I believe, to the end of July. And I wasn’t with it the whole time but and I think Mameluke Thrust started early June and went into October. And Mameluke Thrust killed almost as many Vietnamese as what we did. The other operations that I was on in company sweeps weren’t terribly bad. I mean, you’d medevac a few wounded, maybe 1 or 2 dead sometimes. Maybe no dead, just wounded. I know I medevaced a lot on different sweeps from just heat. (01:44:12) Veteran: There was one time where guys were passing out in the shade. We couldn’t go anymore and so they just said, “Sit down, drink water, and we are going to wait until when the sun goes down to leave.” And the guys were passing out. So, the only way I could cool them down is, luckily there was a river right where we were, was to immerse them in the water totally. So, everything was covered but their face. And I had the Marines, the other guys, holding the guys �up to keep them that way. And I had other Marines hitting the water with sticks because the water was full of water snakes and they are a very curious snake; not necessarily aggressive but very curious. And these guys are knocking the water like this. I medevaced 14 guys that afternoon just from the heat. It was either heat—most of it was heat stroke, a little bit of heat exhaustion, but out of the guys, there had to have been 10 heat strokes. And that’s unusual because you started drinking water in the morning and you, you know, as long as you could get water, you drank it. On one of the sweeps that I was on…And this—these are company sweeps. And so, you don’t really run into—if you’re by, you know, a company by itself doesn’t—isn’t really looking to see a run into a battalion or anything. But we are sweeping the hills and the captain that was leading us said, “We are going to go through a Montagnard village. So, pay respect. They are our allies and they like Americans a lot.” So, we got up to the village and it was really quiet. (01:46:04) Veteran: And we saw bodies laying around. And then we saw arms and we saw heads and we saw parts of legs. The North didn’t like the Montagnards. And I don’t know if they were trying to make an example of them. But they had hacked the whole village apart. I said—it sounds like there was 40 of them…villagers. Men, women, and children. And that was surreal. One of the guys said, “Don’t they believe they have to be whole? They got to be, in order to get into their heaven. They have to be all together.” And so, we spent the next, I don’t know, it was a while. A couple hours maybe, picking up pieces and parts and matching them up with…So they would be all together. That was hard. You’re walking around and you got this young kid’s arm in one hand and you got this one older guy’s leg in the other. And you’re walking up to them and you’re going—the way you’re doing it is by the way they were hacked so if it matched it, it was close. It might not have been the right one but if it was hit the same way, we put them together. And �picked up their heads and put them in place. And just had them all lined up in a straight row. And we left. (01:48:15) Interviewer: That’s— Veteran: That was hard. Interviewer: Yeah. That’s pretty ghastly. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: You heard it told by many good guys out there. Yeah. Veteran: But you know, that…We shouldn’t have…I don’t believe we should have been there in the first place. Maybe. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that is sort of a hard call to make. But it is important to know kind of what goes on. And that…Certainly, the North and the Viet Cong had had their share of travesties. Veteran: They must have hated them. Interviewer: And more deliberately, you know, than most of anything we came up with. And that goes on too. And so yeah, you run into that. Now, do you spend your whole year in Vietnam, kind of continuing to walk through these things? Do they give you any breaks of any length or any R and R or anything like that? Veteran: R and R. Went to Bangkok. Greatest place I ever went, only because it was out of Vietnam. I came off one operation and I walked into the aid station. I just looked up at the chief and I said, “Get me out of the country.” I mean, I had had it. And he said, “I will see what I can do.” Came back, he said, “You want to wait 7 days, you can go to Australia.” And I said, “No. �get me out of this country.” He said, “You got it.” And they did. I don’t know how they did it. They got me a Marine green uniform because the corpsman can do that. They’re the only MOS in the military that can wear Marine greens or Navy blues. And they got me a whole uniform, a green Marine uniform, so I would be dressed the part to go on R and R. And went to the airport. Everything was done. This was like 2 days they did that. And went to the airport and this is how naïve I was: pot. The guy said, “You’re going to Bangkok. You get caught with pot in Bangkok, you’re going to go to jail for 10-15 years.” (01:50:41) Veteran: “No if, ands, or buts. You’re going to jail. We are going to put this basket in the room and turn the lights down. And then we are going to come back in about a minute and then you’re going to be on your own and no buts. We see pot, you don’t have to worry about a thing. Nothing will be done.” He did that and I got to tell you, he filled a whole bushel basket up with pot. I didn’t—I have never smoked my entire life. So, I didn’t have any pot. I was flabbergasted there was that much there. But then we went to Bangkok. I had a great time. Got away from the damn country, Vietnam, for 5 days and I was amazed. I went to a movie there and they tell you that at the end of the movie, they are going to show you a picture of the king and queen, then they are going to play their national anthem. You will not leave that theater early. And you will stand and give the proper salute that is needed. So, I was amazed. I was—I watched this dumb movie. It was 2000—2001, I believe. Interviewer: Space Odyssey? Veteran: Yes! Space Odyssey. And it was—it took me away from everything I wanted. That was the nice part. But at the end of the movie, I just, I purposely was watching to see if anybody was going to leave early. And they went through all the credits; nobody moved. And right at the last, �bam! There was a picture of the king and queen. Everybody stood up, they played the national anthem, their national anthem, and then we left. (01:52:34) Veteran: That was kind of—I mean, I was amazed at that. I said, “If they said, you know, we are going to play the national anthem at the end of a movie here in the United States, there wouldn’t be a seat that was occupied in that movie theater.” But that? Nobody moved. Nobody wanted to. It’s amazing. Bangkok has got some beautiful sights. Like the reclining Buddha. It’s like 100 feet long. And they had a Buddha that is maybe this high. Solid jade. Beautiful temples. Interviewer: Now, how far into your tour was the R and R? Veteran: This was around July. June: end of June. No, when I came out of the field, I said, “Get me out.” And so, I was kind of relaxed when I came back. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Everybody is. Interviewer: Now, what was it like to have to go back? Veteran: You were fine. Everybody was, on the plane, was, you know, bullshitting and yelling and screaming and talking. Having a good old time. When you got about halfway home…Well, I don’t know what to call it; you’re not home. When you got about halfway back, it started quieting down. And when you were landing, it was dead silence. Because we knew what we were going to get into. Interviewer: Now, you went back to the same place that you left from and your unit it still there? �Veteran: That was continuing. Actually, in Allen Brook and Mameluke Thrust, I ended up going. I was on both those operations twice. Interviewer: So, you get to rejoin them while they are still— Veteran: Yep. I got lucky enough to be on both of them twice. (01:54:15) Interviewer: Did you get to a point where a lot of this was sort of routine or it kind of ran together? Or…was it always sort of different? Veteran: It is always different. The wounds were always different. The ambushes were kind of always different. I did get really down on Mameluke Thrust. I actually wrote home to my wife. I had a son that was 4 months old when I went to Vietnam. And I didn’t have any letters, letter writing paper and that, so they would—told us that they would mail anything; as long as you had the address on it, they would mail it. So, I took a C ration box and I was, I don’t know, I was really down. And I wrote a letter of goodbye to my son because I really felt that I wasn’t going to make it. I told him that I was sorry that I wasn’t going to be there to see him grow up. I never knew…I don’t know what happened to it because I put it in my pocket and I knew that they would find it because they check your bodies when you’re killed. And they would send it. That’s what I was figuring. But it wasn’t to be. It wasn’t to be. And it was constant like that. The mine sweep was nice. It was kind of—this was kind of fun. I am on the mine sweep team. And this is in end of…in July. I was on the mine sweep team and we were watching—they get the movies in at the battalion area—and we were watching To Sir, with Love. And watched the whole thing. Everybody is sitting around in the sand, having a good time. And they said, “No! Play that last song over again.” So, To Sir, with Love. So, they backed the film up and they started showing that and we started getting sniper fire from everywhere. And we all started running to our �hooches to get our weapons and stuff. And we are all looking at—we made the comment, “They must not have liked the movie.” (01:56:38) Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, we are—everybody is in the holes all around because everybody is at 100%. So, the whole perimeter is chocked full of guys. And this is at 3rd LVTs. And on one side of 3rd LVTs is Marble Mountain and a village and on the other side is a beach. And we were at 100% that whole night. And off the beach usually came—there was a morning mist or early fog that was…usually hung around. And my hole happened to have been on the beach side. And early in the morning, the mist was there as usual only it started to lift a little earlier. I think it was just a little warmer and it started to lift. And you could see little…you could just barely see little dots out there. And they have reed boats that are about 4 feet in diameter. They are round. And in each one of those boats were 3 men. And they were like 40 or 45, something like that, of them. And I just all of a sudden heard .30 caliber machine guns opening up. And because, that mist had gotten raised a little bit too quickly and their surprise was not a surprise and they were just sitting ducks. And I think there was 60 bodies washed up on shore. And it was…there was no worry. I mean, everybody opened up. When those .30 calibers started shooting, it was…it wasn’t really a battle. It was really a massacre. They could shoot back but there was no place for them to go and there was no cover. And that morning, we had 60 bodies. It was one of the easiest fire fights that I was in. And no wounded. Nobody on our side got scratched. And—which was even the best thing in the world. (01:58:50) Interviewer: Now as this is all going on, what would you say the morale in the units you were serving with was like? Both your own and the ones you were attached to? �Veteran: The morale with the Marines was always high. I have never seen it low. If you’re in with a group of guys, there is always going to be one out of the group that is going to say something, that is going to crack everybody up. And you could be all morbid but that one guy is going to do something, somehow, and it is going to be laughter and…I think it is normal. It is okay. It…The Marine Corps? I have never seen anybody get low. Even in the battlefield, when you are putting your friends away. They were there to do a job. And the Marine Corps is very, very good at doing their job. It—the last operation I was on, it turned out to be mostly a really long walk, which was fine. We started off at midnight and we walked until, humped, until noon. Had a 10-minute lunch then we—then it was about 6 pm. And we were going to split up. (02:00:28) Veteran: And the guys that I—2 of the guys that I was with—said, “Hey! Come on with us.” They were going to go up and over a hill. And I said, “No. I’ll see you on the other side.” I wanted to take the easy route. Well, those 2 guys that went there, one was named Parker and the other one was named Melvin Pool. And we heard the explosion. It was a 250-pound mine. And Pool was…Mel was killed instantly. And Parker was…He was the one that tripped it. And he lived about 3 days. Never regained consciousness, but he lived for about 3 days. And I just keep thinking why? If I would have gone there, maybe I could have done something. Maybe they wouldn’t have tripped the booby trap. And those words are really unique: I’ll see you on the other side. And it’s hard because you are…you feel guilty you didn’t go with them. And why didn’t I go with them? Well, I didn’t want to hump the hill. I just spent 18 hours humping and I wanted to do the easy route. But…couldn’t be there to help them. I wanted to. There were times where I wanted to. I would have died with them, easily. And it wouldn’t have mattered to me one bit. (02:02:24) �Interviewer: How much time did you have left when that happened? Veteran: This was September. Latter part of September. They only—they kept me on mine sweep team after that. I would go back to my regular battalion area for a while. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And they would then send me back to a…the sweep team. They didn’t…They said, “Nah, you did your share. You don’t need to go out in the field anymore.” And October and November and December mostly was a sweep team. Interviewer: Now by this time, had the personnel in your unit pretty well turned over with men rotating in and out? Or were there still guys that you had served with all along? Veteran: Oh, I am glad you asked that question. We had a Nicky New Guy who thought he knew everything. And you do. If you’re a corpsman, you have to think that way. Interviewer: Alright. We have kind of gotten toward the later stages of your tour. I’ve got a couple of kind of broader questions to ask. I mean, I have kind of asked about unit morale and things. Was there a difference in atmosphere between being in a base camp someplace and being up at the front lines, in terms of just attitudes of people or how they behaved? Veteran: I think that if you talk with most military guys, they would prefer the field versus being in the camp. You had to play soldier in the camp. You were a soldier in the field. And there is a big difference between the two. It was all spit and polish back at the base camp where you were doing what you were supposed to, what you were trained to do, in the field. And especially with the Nicky New Guys. (02:04:29) �Veteran: Nicky New Guys were…We called them FNGs. And they were a lot of fun. They were just as gung-ho as hell. We had this one that, he was 18 almost 19, but he was still 18 and he was going to go on his first operation. So, myself and 2 other corpsmen that had been on a lot of operations, we are telling him what to do and what not to do. One of the things was at night, when the mortars are going off, you stay in your hole. The guys will still be there and you’ll still be able to work on them after they stop. Don’t get out of your hole; it is the safest place to be. Well, he goes on this overnight operation and they get mortared. And someone yells, “Corpsman!” and he just gets up and takes off. Well, he gets hit with a piece of shrapnel and he gets hit with a piece of shrapnel in the head of the penis. And the body is a wonderful thing: everything went numb. He didn’t feel any pain but it bleeds a lot. So, you think you are dying. And he gets medevaced. He gets into the hospital and the first thing they do with wounds is debride them. They scrub them with a scrub brush. Unfortunately for him, the numbing went. They had to numb him with shots in order to make sure that he was going to be—he could take it. Well, the long story short, he thought he was—he didn’t even have sex yet—and he ended his sex life in Vietnam. And there is nothing there but nerves and they are still alive and it is mostly up here in your head. But you couldn’t convince this guy of it. And we gave him so much shit. We asked him if you wanted us to change his battle dressings. (02:06:39) Veteran: And as it turned out, it took about 4 weeks and finally healed. And he’s looking at one of these Playboy magazines in the crap room and he gets a hard on. And he tells everybody in the whole camp. He goes walking—he even told our commanding officer he got a hard on. Oh my God, was that embarrassing. He was—but it was not—we knew that he was going to be fine. That the only reason why nothing was working the way he wanted it to was because it was still �healing. And but, we made him pay for that the whole time. Told him, “Next time, you will listen. You will stay in your hole until it is done and then go take care of the wounded.” Interviewer: Yeah. So, you had a fair number of new guys coming because they were rotating men in and out all the time? Veteran: Yes. You are always…We came in individually. We left individually. And throughout that whole time, people are coming and going. I think there was…They probably left a month after I did. The 5th Marines came in and took part of 4th Shore Party. 5th Shore Party became 4th Shore Party. We occupied the same place because they didn’t have any other place to put them. And I think there was a couple of guys there that they came in country 30 days after I did and they were still there. But in between, the guys that were there when I showed up, they were all gone. And when I left, I was the oldest. I had the most seniority. (02:08:31) Interviewer: Right. Now, in principle, part of what they thought they were doing was you’d always have a veteran element on the ground. When you rotate the new man in, they could learn from the older ones and so forth. And so, you’d be able to maintain morale and unit performance and so forth. How well do you think that actually worked in practice? Veteran: Not worth a crap. Being honest with you. That works very well if you keep the guys there and the veterans are going to be there the same—the whole duration. When you send someone in individually, like they did us, you go through stages. And I think the first stage is you want to get in and blend in and be like the other guys. Then you become a veteran, either going—go out in the field once, you become a veteran. In about…You work well with others for about a few months. And I think from about 6 months on, then you—something clicks in the back of your head and it says, “You are over the hump. You got, you know, you’re on your way �down. All you have to do is survive.” And unfortunately, I think that’s what the vets, the veterans, the guys that knew what they were doing because they did it, started thinking: “I don’t care what I got to do. I am going to survive this. I am going to get the hell out of here.” And you did. Did it make me hesitate to go get a guy? No. But did I think about my own safety? You bet. Matter of fact, every man did, I think. (02:10:18) Interviewer: Now, did you keep an actual calendar for yourself and count days down? Veteran: Everybody kept a short-timer’s calendar. Mine was this nice little lady up there. Colored a little circle each time and she was fully covered by the time you left. Everybody had a short-timer’s calendar. Interviewer: Alright. Now, you mentioned sort of being back in the rear area and so forth. The spit and polish stiff, did you have officers or sergeants or whatever who got on your case if you didn’t look right or do something properly? Or…? Veteran: Medical is a little bit different. You still had to be reasonably, you know, spit and polish. But they kind of left medical people alone. We were there to treat them. They didn’t want to hassle us because they may have to come and see us one day. And so, I guess we were kind of lucky that way. In fact, when we—when I did fly back and landed in Okinawa to get shipped out, this gunny sergeant—we are all standing up—he said, “Attention!” And we all just look at him. “Attention!” and we just looked at him. He said, “Guys, I know you just came back,” he said, “But this is the States now and you got to do it. So, come on.” He was nice about it and he must have gone through several times. And so okay, then we did the soldier thing for him. But once I got back to Great Lakes, it was…They just want…It was spit and polish because you were in the Navy; back in the Navy. �Interviewer: Yeah. (02:12:06) Veteran: You had to wear the shine—your shoes didn’t have to be spit shined but they had to shine. And your clothes better have been looking pretty good. Interviewer: Alright. Now back in Vietnam, you had mentioned at one point when you were heading off to R and R, guys all started to produce their pot and so forth. Did you notice much by way of actual drug use in the places where you were? Veteran: Not where I was. I had heard that later in the latter part, in the mid ‘70s, they started really heavily. And I know they had problems with it but no, nobody…When you went in the field, you were cold stone sober because you needed to be cold stone sober. Nobody went—there is no such thing as a hallucination out in the battlefield. And you would not stand for it if anybody else was like that. He could get you killed. And you wouldn’t allow that. Interviewer: yeah. Now, would that go on if you were back on a base some place? Would there be…would you smell pot or were there guys lighting up or things like that? Or…? Veteran: Not…Actually, you know, no. Most of the Marines that I was with, at least in 1968, they were…We were drinkers. We had an enlisted men’s club that we could—you could drink beer. Now, they didn’t allow—the officers did not allow the enlisted to have liquor, hard liquor. They could get the beer but they couldn’t get the liquor. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: The Navy, however, especially Naval corpsmen, could get the liquor. Interviewer: Yeah. �Veteran: And when they got their monthly shot, or ration cards, they had a place for liquor on there. Well, they would give us that part of the ration card with the money and we would go and buy the liquor for them. Our ambulance would be full. There was only one requirement: we got one bottle off every case. And we had a well-stocked liquor cabinet, let me tell you. And they kind of—the officers really didn’t—if you got caught with it, you were in trouble. But they didn’t go looking for it. And most of the time, the guys spent their time in the enlisted club with Schlitz or Miller High Life or Budweiser. (02:14:35) Interviewer: Right. Okay, because you are also there—you are in Vietnam. You get through ’68 and ’68 is a pretty dramatic year back at home at the same time. You have Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy assassinated, you have race riots, you have the Democratic convention, you have all of this stuff going on. Were there any echoes or reverberations of any of that where you were? Veteran: I was going out in—we were going out in operations. We were in the back of a 6 by [6X6 truck] heading out when word came down that Martin Luther King was killed. And that was a shock for all of us, not just the guys who happened to have been black, but for all of us. I didn’t notice any repercussions. And again, they might have looked at me differently because I was medical. That I don’t know but I didn’t see it from across the way. When you go out in the field, one thing is going to happen: I am going to cover your back and you’re going to cover my back. And I’ll tell you what, I treated a lot of wounded and it’s all red. Their blood. And that’s the way they looked at it. You are brothers when you are out there. There’s no such thing as black and white when you’re out there. It was I will cover your back, you cover mine. �Interviewer: Okay. You get to the end of your—you survive your 12-month tour in Vietnam so you get into the early ’69. When do you actually physically leave Vietnam? (02:16:10) Veteran: Say that again. Interviewer: When did you actually leave Vietnam? Veteran: I left the…I actually left the—February 9th. I actually stayed, extended my tour, about 10 days because they were going to have a test for second class hospital corpsmen and so I stayed there because I would have been in transit when they gave the test. They give it all over the Navy at the same time. So, I took my test for second class in Vietnam before I left and left February 9th. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And it was really quiet in the plane until, came over the loudspeaker, “We are now leaving the Republic of Vietnam.” And then there was one huge party. It was great. Best thing. I mean, we just had a good time. And again, it was Continental. The stewardesses were there and they just had a good time. I mean, they were super nice ladies. Made you feel really good. And they’re, back in 1968, they were only the ones that really kind of welcome you home. Interviewer: Where did you land? Veteran: I land…To be honest with you, the base—I thought it was El Toro, near the LA airport. Driving distance to the LA— Interviewer: Right. �Veteran: And we got there about 3:30 in the morning. Got down, actually kissed the cement. I actually did when I landed. And they marched us into this huge hangar and told us, “We need you to be quiet. We want you to know we are going to have everybody here processed out. You will be heading towards the airport by 6 in the morning for leave.” And I just said, “Okay, we will follow your orders.” And you just do it. And they did. There was like 250 of us. And they processed all; everybody out. And we were, myself and like 5 other guys, climbed into a cab and headed for LA. (02:18:23) Veteran: And we thought they were doing us a favor. Well, they were in a way because around 7 o’clock, the protesters would show up. And the guys there told us they are pelted with tomatoes, eggs, and yelled at and cussed at. And they were not happy so we are—you’re not going to see that. So…And we didn’t; not there. We got in that cab and that cab driver…Oh my word. That was the scariest cab ride I ever saw. I didn’t know what smog was but you couldn’t see the end of the car. I mean, you couldn’t even see the hood of the car. And he’s going at 75 miles an hour and we knew we were going to die on a California highway after making it through Vietnam. That was like a 40-minute drive before he got us to the airport. And he dropped everybody off and I was almost as relieved to get out of that cab as I was getting on that plane to leave Vietnam. It was all—I mean, it was a nice feeling. But he must have known what he was doing because he got us there. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: The first—you know, I got in the airport and we already got military tickets and that. So, we are guaranteed we are getting on the plane. And I get to the window really early but there is a guy right there from the airport. And he looked at me and said, “Just back from ‘Nam, huh?” �I said, “Yep.” “You’re going to be lucky enough to get on the plane.” And it didn’t sink in that…I didn’t really care. (02:20:13) Veteran: They have bars here and nobody is shooting at me. I don’t have to duck mortars. I didn’t really care. Didn’t bother me then. Until I started thinking about it later. And you know what? I was the very last person to get on that plane. And he sat me—I don’t know how he did it—next to an Oriental. And she saw me and she said, “You come back from Vietnam?” I said, “Yes.” She asked the stewardess if she could move. And the stewardess said, “Okay. Yeah.” And she came back and she said, “You know, if there was a place in first class, I would have put you in first class but it was full.” And that kind of helped a little bit. But didn’t sink in. I mean, I didn’t get no tomatoes or eggs or spit on like a lot of guys. But there were certain little digs that, when you start to think about it, that it wasn’t a warm welcome. And a lot of—I know a lot of guys took their uniforms off, put on civilian clothes. But it is kind of hard to show that you weren’t over there because you have a very deep tan and you’ve got short hair and there’s only one place you are getting that. You’re automatically put in the military. So, I was damn proud of that uniform. That Marine green uniform? I bled to get that. And I wasn’t about to take it off. No. Interviewer: Now, are you—do you get a leave to go home for a while here? And then you have to report back? Or how does that work? (02:22:08) Veteran: I…No, when you left, they gave you 30 days. We had 30 days off. And I had to report back to Great Lakes Naval Hospital. And I got there and there’s a group of corpsmen there and they are all being assigned and I am the last guy in the room. And I am kind of like waiting. Now, how come I am last? And a lieutenant commander nurse came up to me and she said, “We have a problem and we are not quite sure how to handle it.” And I said, “Well, what is the problem?” “Well, we are going to assign you to Ward 10 North, which is upper respiratory, �hepatitis, mono, and pneumonia.” And I said, “Well, I don’t see a problem with that. I’ll get the hang of it.” And she said, “No, that’s not the problem. The problem is there is a guy up there who has been running this as a senior corpsman, because that is what you are going to be: a senior corpsman. He’s been running it for the last 2 months…” And I don’t know why they didn’t—I mean, this is the military for Christ sakes. You go up there and say, “You’re not senior corpsman anymore, this guy is because he is more senior than you are.” And I am a third class, waiting to get my second class stripes. Third class is E-4 or corporal in the Marines and E-5 is a sergeant. And if you, you know, you just go in there and tell him. That’s the way the military does things. But they didn’t want to do that. They thought it was real touchy. So, I go up there and I let the guy run the ward a little bit until I knew what I was doing. And slowly but surely, I didn’t have to do—I didn’t have to tell him anything. The fact that I had more experience than he did. I could draw—I could start IVs a whole heck of a lot quicker. I could do tests that he— they—hesitate to do. And he just realized that I was more senior. And he just kind of like took the role as the guy, the second guy, in command, which he would have been anyway. (02:24:21) Veteran: What really did it was on this ward, this guy—he was a thief. He stole some cars. And the other corpsmen were afraid of him. Big guy. I mean, he stood about 6 inches taller than I am. And so, I had to look up to talk to him. And we had to give him a test. We had to put a tube down his nose, into his stomach, and draw out some fluid so we could test his stomach fluid. And 2 corpsmen I sent down to do it. I am the senior corpsman; I am not supposed to do things. And so, I sent them down there. And they came back and they said, “We couldn’t do it.” I said, “Why?” “I was afraid.” I said, “Okay, come on.” So, I grab the glass of water and the tube and a cup for the test fluid. And I walk up to the guy and look at him. I said, “See this tube? I am going to put it in your nose. You’re going to drink the water to make it easier. I am going to put it in �your stomach and clear out some fluid. Got it?” “Yep.” “Okay.” So, I start putting it in his nose and he started drinking and it was done in 5 minutes. It was not a big deal. And I said, “Thanks.” I left the room. That was…turned the page. Okay, you’re the boss and we follow whatever you say and that was that way. The ward was pretty nice. Every once in a while, I got to help out on 9 North at the Great Lakes, which is isolation. And that’s where they get the meningitis and things they don’t know what to do [with] and they are afraid that they might be catching. And I assisted the doctor a couple times with spinal taps. Only this guy…He was out of it. And he needed a spinal tap because that’s the only way you can tell what he’s got. (02:26:34) Veteran: And so the doctor, who I really got to know really good, said—told me—“Come on down. I need your help.” So, I came down and, “I need to do a spinal tap on this guy and he is moving around in his bed.” And I said, “This is going to be difficult, isn’t it?” He said, “Yeah, I think it is going to be difficult.” And I thought for a second and I said, “No sir, it’s not. You just get ready and I’ll tell you when.” And he got all his packages ready and got his gloves on. And I got up on the bed with the guy and I stuck my knee into his stomach, hard. That made him double over and then I put one arm over around his head and neck and the other one behind his knees and I pulled him around like that with both my knees in his…So, he was right there and I said, “Can you do it now?” And doc says, “I’ll do it in a hurry.” And he did. I asked him to because when he was about done, I said, “Can you hurry up?” He said, “Why?” I said, “Well sir, he’s biting my leg and he’s not through the clothes yet but he’s going to be soon.” And so, he said, “It’s done.” And he pulled the needle out and we straightened him out. But I had teeth marks in one leg. But it was…It was an interesting time. Interviewer: Alright. Now, do you get—did you spend the rest of your time in the Navy at Great Lakes then? �Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you get—was it more like having a civilian job in a lot of ways now? (02:28:04) Veteran: Actually, yes. Once you were there. And that’s the way it usually is once you are out of boot camp. And once you are done with all of your training, it becomes a regular job. I drove back and forth and lived off base. And drove back and forth just like a regular job. And that was—that part was really nice. Yes, there was inspections. Yes, you had to be military appearance and—which was okay, that is what you are supposed to do. But it was—in the medical field, it’s like a regular job. And the officers are a lot easier to talk to. And you didn’t always have to call them ‘sir.’ Interviewer: Yeah. Now, did they make any effort to get you to stay in? Veteran: Actually, no because when…They had so many of them at that particular time. That— when I left, it was try to reduce the number of people. And so…And there were so many corpsmen that they didn’t need anybody. They had all they needed already. So, nope. It was— and it was really nice to run through that hospital doing all the final checks to get out of the service. Almost the same feeling as when you were getting ready to leave Vietnam. It was okay, this part of my life is done and I got to start over. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Very anxious to start over. Interviewer: So, what did you do when you got out? �Veteran: About a month before I got out, I took leave. And this was the hard part. I mean, I couldn’t believe that in near Grand Rapids, on the south side, a lot of industry. And I applied everywhere. And on the applications at that time, you had to put whether you were a veteran or not. And of course, you put veteran down. And after about—you fill out about 45-50 of them and they don’t want nothing to do with you because you’re the veteran, you stop putting veteran down. (02:30:11) Veteran: And they knew you were a veteran anyway. Just—my looks didn’t change that much. You still have that military appearance. And so, I actually thought I was going to have to draw unemployment but I had a brother-in-law that the only reason I got a job was because of the brother-in-law. And then I just…All I wanted to do was work. Get on with my life. Interviewer: What kind of job was it? Veteran: I actually—it started off as a processor for LB Johnson in Holland. Because when I came back, that’s where I ended up living: here in Holland. And worked there for a long time and went to a place called Acrofab in Zeeland. I tried selling insurance. I did a lot of different jobs and then I finally ended up at Padnos Iron and Metal: a scrap recycler. And I worked there for 30 years. And now I am retired. Been married for 33 years to my wife. Got 3 great sons. I had 4 but one of them died. But the 3 I got are still with me and going great. Proud of them all. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you get involved eventually with any veterans groups or things like that? Or…? Veteran: I am glad you asked that question because I probably would have not brought anything up. It was amazing how the veterans groups treated veterans when they came back. We tried to join a VFW. You couldn’t join a VFW because it wasn’t a war. Tried to join the DAV; couldn’t �do that because this was just a police action. So, we just said, “Screw it. I mean, I don’t need you.” And a few years later, late ‘70s, early ‘80s, Vietnam Veterans of America started. (02:32:26) Veteran: And my wife Pat, she saw this small little article; hey, there is some vets getting together. Vietnam vets going to start a chapter. And I said, “No, I am not going to go because they’re just a bunch of cry-babies. Going to say oh we got robbed. We did this.” She said, “Well, just go anyway and if they do that, just leave.” So, I went there and there was 7 of us. And we were the original members of the Holland chapter. And make a long story short, our chapter just celebrated its 30th anniversary. And we have 93 members, active members. It’s hard to get them out because Vietnam veterans aren’t necessarily joiners now. And we act—we are very proud: we have a Michigan Wall with all the names of all those that were killed. And it’s been highly received around the area or wherever we bring it. And we just upgraded it. We went—we actually had another wall made so you can do imprinting better. And we also are—it’s just about done with getting the names. And they are going to send it in and we are going to have a section of the wall for the last few wars from the Gulf. In fact, it will all—it will go back down to Saudi Arabia and Africa when we lost those 200 Marines? All the Michigan names are on it and all the newer names are on that wall. So, then we display it wherever we are asked to. (02:34:12) Veteran: It is well-received. I am very proud of it. We really reach out to the veterans. And I am very proud of the fact that I lead a group, myself and one other guy, we lead a group support group for veterans, for all wars. It is called ‘Vet to Vet.’ And it doesn’t replace the VA for taking care of them but what it does do, it offers a safe haven so-to-speak to come in and talk. And while it is endorsed by the VA, it’s not part of it. And—but the VA likes us to do this so the guys will want to get to the VA to get some more help. This is to help bring out their problems. �Interviewer: Right. Now, did you find yourself having to deal with levels of things like survivor’s guilt or other kinds of PTSD symptoms eventually? Veteran: Anger. I still flinch at loud noises. I hate fireworks. Every Vietnam veteran I know, most of them don’t like fireworks. It’s hard to…Other than anger, it is hard to show emotion. I have a lot of the—I am 70% PTSD. And we are working out of it. What’s nice about the ‘Vet to Vet’ is not only am I helping other veterans but I also help myself at the same time. And I’ve gone through the VA. And it’s because of the VA that I am doing the ‘Vet to Vet.’ They were looking for a couple guys and I volunteered again. So…But it is very nice to see the guys when they come in and you know you’re helping them. So…I have actually been helping vets since ’68 anyway. (02:36:15) Interviewer: Now, do you see, as you look back to your time in the service—I mean, you brought some baggage out with you but do you see positive effects on you? Are you in some ways better or wiser because you had that experience? Veteran: Yeah, it’s affected us in a lot of bad ways. We know. But in the good ways? Yeah: selfconfidence, self-assurance, you’re not afraid to tackle things. If, you know—there are no problems that are bad. I’ll take you back to Vietnam and I’ll show you problems that are bad. But in the workforce? There is nothing bad. They’re just obstacles to overcome. And I don’t think I would have thought that way if I hadn’t gone through what I did. It’s a…It was a big help. It’s amazing because when—in fact, we talked about this at the last ‘Vet to Vet’ meeting. When we came home, we felt like we were grown up. And everybody around us were still kids. They didn’t mature. And I just believe that, in a way, yeah, Vietnam did make you stronger. Weaker in a lot of places but, overall, I think it made us stronger. And would we do it again? I haven’t met a �Vietnam veteran that said, even given the same circumstances and knowing what was going to go, we would still go back. Interviewer: Well, it makes for a very powerful story so I’d like to close here by thanking you for taking the time to tell it to me today. Veteran: You’re welcome. Thank you. (02:38:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JakubczakR1329V Title A name given to the resource Jakubczak, Richard (Interview transcript and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jakubczak, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Jakubczak is from Grand Rapids Michigan and was born in May of 1946. After high school he worked at Lowell Engineering and as a farmer. He briefly attended Kendall School of Design, but dropped out in 1966 and he and his brother joined the Navy and volunteered for training as medical corpsmen. He completed his basic training and medical training at Great Lakes, Illinois, and then went to Camp LeJeune, North Carolina, for field training. He then worked at Great Lakes Naval Hospital for ten months, and went to Vietnam in February, 1968. He was assigned to the First Shore Party, which provided logistical support to Marine combat units in the field, and was regularly attached to combat units when on operations. He was based near Da Nang, and supported Marine units involved in Operations Allen Brook and Mameluke Thrust. He left Vietnam in February, 1969, and completed his enlistment at Great Lakes. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Marine Corps United States. Navy Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56d2555bc0232db486f6335d789957c3.mp4 cda97747f0fedf3d9c133a3c6f92d43f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/08df525b5cee1c521c3cca183ce1b892.pdf bf258dd6daacfb7f976ea2e237226660 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Marvin Jalving (00:50:51) (00:10) Background Information • • • • • • • • • Marvin was born in 1924 in Holland, MI His parents had 8 children, six of whom were in the service during World War Two He entered the service in July of 1943 Marvin’s father had been a school teacher and then later became a banker They moved from Montana to Michigan when his father stopped teaching His mother had been a house wife His family did not suffer much during the depression because his father’s bank stayed open the whole time Marvin did not pay much attention to news of the war while he was in high school Marvin did not enjoy school or do well in his classes, but graduated in June of 1943 (3:30) Enlistment in the Air Corps • • • • • Marvin was very interested in flying and found the Air Corps to be more glamorous with better conditions than other branches of service He traveled from Holland to Chicago and then took a troop train to Miami, FL He trained through the fall of 1943 Basic training was demanding with marching, calisthenics, and waking up very early every day It was a nice area for training with good food and nice weather (6:15) Advanced Training • Marvin began student aviation training in New York • He then left on a troop train on New Year’s Day to travel to Nashville, TN for placement • The men could place into positions of gunner, pilot, navigator, or bombardier • Marvin took another train to Colorado for armament training • The classes were very different and difficult • He had gunnery training in Texas • He took another train to Nebraska and was assigned to a B-24 for flight training • They flew over Colorado and New Mexico dropping fake bombs over targets • Marvin began flying in B-17s, which were much safer and newer • He then went to Kansas for outfitting for overseas (11:00) Going Overseas • Marvin took a troop train to New Jersey for orientation and then boarded the Queen Elizabeth • The food on the ship was English and horrible and there were thousands of men on the ship • They traveled with a convoy and landed in Scotland • On Christmas Eve of 1944 they took a train to England • They stayed at a base near Ipswich and his sister worked in a nearby hospital �(17:40) Flight Missions • Marvin began flying missions in 1945 toward the end of the war • They were shooting out railroad yards and gasoline refineries • Most of the missions were in Germany with a few in France and England • The Germans were no longer sending up fighters because they were out of fuel • The Germans were still sending up a lot of flak (23:40) Missions Gone Wrong • Marvin had been flying over France when the oxygen stopped working and he had to eject • He woke up disoriented and was found by a French farmer and his son • They rolled him a cigarette out of some newspaper and his wife gave him some apple brandy, which made him pretty drunk • An Army truck came and picked him up and it took them six days to get back to England • They continued flying missions, which began to take a psychological toll on many of the men (29:45) Free Time on the Base • Marvin often rode bikes, exercised, went to church, wrote letters, and spent time in the recreational hall • After the war he was still in England doing boring jobs, such as KP • He took a liberty ship to Boston and was on furlough in December of 1945 • He had furlough for one month and had been with his family during VJ day (33:15) the Pacific • Marvin was sent to Santa Ana, CA and scheduled to go to the Pacific • He was angry that he might have to go overseas again • He spent more time on KP in CA and soon found that he had enough points to be discharged • He was sent back to Wisconsin and relaxed until he was finally discharged in October of 1945 (34:25) Michigan • Marvin moved back with his parents and began taking classes at Hope College • He did not like school and began working in transportation /trucking • His overall service experience was good, but many men got psychological problems because they could not accept the things that happened (39:35) Air Corps Reunion • The 34th bomb group has a reunion every year • Marvin has been to reunions in Tennessee, Colorado, Cincinnati, and Michigan • They are harder to attend as he gets older • He feels that he had been brainwashed by the Air Corps, but was fortunate that he was never wounded and that all his family members are ok (43:05) Showing of Pictures �/0/:' /'6 --r:o tq OLD I:. \1 13 r d~=< !-' C ;/2. /y fI c..1-l1 e 'f 6-A rJ uj:; IN ~:< /: ii!. <.~ (p (L.j.! 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I~!A/IJ, 1D ~T 1-\ A5S;6-r,J ~''):, TrfE, ~r!\ $.k O~ C.-J~,4rl6:£ 6- SOf<'t;:: ~Y'5HIP '1'-~4~1<,;:~ To /-~ \r CJ 'v 0. rf LA!~ Rf:-AS~/GJ-j­ t tJ ~ 4~. \lJ,l+iL.~f4t'>Me: \(~ PI1lHAPPr:,..,\ F-.'h. .r H-/t D 10 KEPOt<-! 'f"OrZSANTA A"!~I C/iLlFoItNIA,. t1HEte.. /v1'1 <u{2../-O!JGf1, Wfi/LEIvVAS n+t:?f~E I\, Y\! H I L.E ) POI titS- NoT Iv{ OCrl 0 f II>( l\! , [1, ~~,'.p__ , /",'\,,!, (:)(7:' 11 tJp K1 1) VT'! n y{//!.>: j DIS.c.rU1;:'&::=. r wAS &O','\!~ TO 1{'2..U!~,>~ '::'5LJ;; rtY. MADISON; 't-"/r;,e.,1"NJ) f3E!/'':c TvjO OTI-}£\Z &-·U'/s f!6-A/ JUST "ToO,"" IT f:/\S:; Vf../-nL r 'ilA.5 I fd?" � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JalvingM Title A name given to the resource Jalving, Marvin (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jalving, Marvin Description An account of the resource Marvin Jalving enlisted in the Army Air Corps in July of 1943 and was discharged in October of 1945. He went to England late in 1944 and flew 23 missions in B-17s, most of which were in Germany taking out train yards and gasoline refineries. After flying missions in Europe, George had been sent to California and scheduled to leave for the Pacific. He was relieved when he found that he had enough points to be discharged before he was sent to the Pacific. Personal narrative appended to interview outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCauslin, Kelly (Interviewer) Spring Lake District Library (Spring Lake, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army. Air Corps World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/077718ddbc62f76b083c814a382e21a9.jpg 18bb034c75cd12efeafa170eed0228fd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-July-1962-8 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1962-07 Title A name given to the resource Jam Session Description An account of the resource A sign on the side of the Blue Tempo. It reads: "Combo Dixie, Jazz, Dance, Wed. thru Sun. Jam Session, Dancing nightly." It also expresses that it starts at 4:00 on Saturday and 3:00 on Sunday. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file collected by the Kutsche Office of History as part of the Stories of Summer Project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4cabfa9cb3db29243054f517e58186b8.jpg 297ec651d7c103d2cb272176bff5f213 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d97a191cbaa0fdfb4c0f5da14d42a9e.jpg 07e6f97b30a5241c999b6aa875a435fc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-July-1962-13 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1962-07 Title A name given to the resource Jam Session, Gold Description An account of the resource A full color image of a group of men in shiny gold jackets. There is a man on the drums, an electric and acoustic guitarist, and a saxophonist, all of whom are actively playing their instruments. Other instruments hang on the wall behind them, and some sort of netting is on the ceiling. The back side of "Jam Session, Gold." It reads: "This is a Kodacolor Print. Made by Kodak, February 1961." 2017.13.04e is written along the bottom. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Musicians Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file collected by the Kutsche Office of History as part of the Stories of Summer Project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e2fc16263e27674d96914de424cfa42.jpg abae24207447602cf3e7fe14f10c5bba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oceana County Migrant Labor History Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell-Weiss, Melanie Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Growing Community: A Century of Migration in Oceana County." This project was a collaboration between El Centro Hispano de Oceana, the Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society, and Grand Valley State University funded by a Common Heritage grant from the United States National Endowment for the Humanities. The materials in this collection document the history of communities in Hart, Shelby, and Walkerville and explore themes of migration, labor, religion, family, belonging, national and cultural identities, regional, national, and international connections, and citizenship. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceana County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource El Centro Hispano de Oceana; Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Image Sound recording Language A language of the resource eng spa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Shelby (Mich.) Farms Farmers Migrant agricultural laborers Hispanic Americans Account books Diaries Oral history Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06_Oceana_MoulE_photo-003 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Unknown Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1950 Title A name given to the resource Jamaican field workers, circa 1950 Description An account of the resource Photograph of male workers on family farm. Workers are from Jamaica. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Moul, Esther Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage Project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Farms Farmers Migrant agricultural laborers Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives 1950s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec37c34aa3debc35f9ee72915e8be357.pdf 3be65af69da44b68f13c0e92e882cfc0 PDF Text Text � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6e402c23d6fe3863fdaf6c6f85aefe74.pdf 73379c8eba6bc57ef9a5e10e065fd499 PDF Text Text [Official Muster Certificate] Grand Rapids, Oct. 21, 1861 I Certify That James B. Sabin has enlisted in Company F in the 2nd Regiment of Michigan Volunteer Cavalry for three years or during the war and has been mustered into the service of the United States Arvine Peck, Captain W.C. Davies, Col. Commanding. �[Medical Examination] I certify on honor That I have carefully examined the above named recruit, James B Sabin, agreeably to the General Regulations of the Army, and that in my opinion he is free from all bodily defects and mental inferiority, which would in any way disqualify him from performing the duties of a Soldier. F.S. Henderson Army Surgeon �[Muster Notice] To whom it may concern, This is to Certify that James B. Sabin is a soldier regularly mustered into service in the Second Cavalry Reg. of Michigan – Camp Anderson Oct. 11, 1861 A. Peck, Capt � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4907-1 Title A name given to the resource James B. Sabin Civil War papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1861-10-21 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sabin, James B. Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army. Michigan Cavalry Regiment, 2nd (1861-1865) Description An account of the resource Official documents and correspondence of James B. Sabin, Company F, 2nd Michigan Volunteer Calvery, 1861-1863. Certificates and oath of identity, and correspondence from Camp Benton, St. Louis, Missouri, and an article from the Grand Rapids Press, May 10, 1961. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b9700c98022724c5e60fbbaf778f5848.pdf 8936b8954f8afbb1f59a3de0cedf96a0 PDF Text Text � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b0808440af8c145fe14a8dd2e29e1251.pdf 4d0a36bc7def39347710391c8684c7fc PDF Text Text [Discharge Certificate] To all whom it may concern: Know Ye, That James B. Sabin a Private of Captain Dan J Fargo Company F 2nd Regiment of Mich. lear. Who was enrolled on the 29th day of August one thousand hundred and Sixty One to serve Three years is hereby Discharged from a service of the United States this Twelfth day of April, 1863, at Franklin, Tennessee by reason (No objection to his being re-enlisted is known to exist.*) Said James B. Sabin was born in Madison Co. in the State of New York, is 44 years of age, 5 feet 7 inches high, light complexion, Grey eyes, Brown hair, and by occupation, when enrolled, a [?] . Given at Franklin, Tennessee this Twelfth day of April 1863. A.P. Campbell Col Comdg Regiment *This sentence will be erased should there be any thing in the conduct or physical condition of the soldier rendering him unfit for the Army. Govt. Print. Office. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4907-2 Title A name given to the resource James B. Sabin Civil War papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1863-04-12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sabin, James B. Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army. Michigan Cavalry Regiment, 2nd (1861-1865) Description An account of the resource Official documents and correspondence of James B. Sabin, Company F, 2nd Michigan Volunteer Calvery, 1861-1863. Certificates and oath of identity, and correspondence from Camp Benton, St. Louis, Missouri, and an article from the Grand Rapids Press, May 10, 1961. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/16eb1138f43f6299d12c69231e74d100.pdf 69eacf8c9e38f3f7bd15b14afcce9021 PDF Text Text ���� https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dd208fb947aec6353307be9debb77581.pdf 5d90fcd04e5d1ce0066036cda6b0f88a PDF Text Text Camp Benton (St. Louis) Nov 17, 1861 after having my letter mostly written I found that I could buy this sheat [sheet] for five cents and it being a view of our camp I thought it would Do you more good than any thing else, it being the first letter that I send you from hear. I wish you would keep it until I return if ever I do the house in the center is hed quarters, those on the sides are barracks for Soldiers it is a beautiful place one that General Fremont took from the rebbels [rebels] and fitted it up. Thare [There] is about twenty thousand [?] in about four miles of hear and expect about twenty fiv thousand more soon. St. Louis is a vary large plase I was Disapinted [Disappointed?] in it. There are a grate many more lates hear than I ever see in my life before and that is not a few you know. Butt I shall half to begin to [?] or I will have none[?] I convinced before breakfast to write to you them if I fall then if I fail to write all I will try again wal I guess you all know that we started from the Rappids the 14 of November 1861 but you dont know I felt when I saw you at Lowel joined hand in hand �[?] that you may ever be so, but not with sutch ancious fais [such anxious face?] an hured step what was it for I wan to se my husband and Father perhaps for the last time if my paper us blotted with tears you will not find [?]. I should stop and give vent to my felings if thare was not so many around me not on my account but your sum times I almos wished that I had not of sen you at Low’l but then you would of bin Disapointed so I will try to be satisfied but the vision will never leave me if I should fall on the field I have no doubt but that it wil be in my last thoughs as far as I am conserned it makes no difference whare I fall if it is on the field it will be in a good cause I shall Do all that I can so that the war may son clos, and I be with you agane. The firs tears that I have shed in a long time was after we started from Low’l sine the thoy seam to earn eany[?] perhaps it will do me god I that I am sorry that I have come here although we are in about 25 miles of whar thay had a battle the other day and the los was heavy on both sides before I forget it I want you to take the Grand River Eagle if you have to do without sumthing else than you will know all about us, get Brother [?] to send for you and get back numbers so as far back as the 13, than you will have the hul of the presiding now for the jurney soon after we started from Low’l the car we were in began to heat so that by dark the oil on these[?] would blase so that we could see the fense[?] as plane as day and the [?] melted so that it run on the ground tride to run to Detroiet but had to leave it at Pontiack. how mutch better you was wee than thousands than uthers �That night at Iona and at every uther Station that night thare was many that expected to see thare friends but it seemed that we went faster thare than any whare else with what feelings thay saw thare friends pass we were cheared in every town and almost every house that was in sight you would see the woman and children waving those hankercheives [handkerchiefs] as we have in sight arrived in Detriote at 6 Oclock the table was was [?] with bread and [?] with butter on it and slis of [?] ham between two peacies aples crackers and coffee hear thay toll us to fill our hoversacks wit sectles and our canteens with coffee as veer thay said thare had not bin [?] a Regiment in the plase before by the way thay treated the boyes wit segares left about 11 o clock at night slep also at half or our arive at Decater, 10 AM all left theares called the role thare were some lades had a flag went throu the rankes and shok handes with the solder and kissed many of them the canon was fired a number of times arived at Niles 11 AM, thare was about 2000 people thare wat in for us with almost all kindes of provisions for usthay passed throu thee cares with it telling us to take all that we could abd aples and coffee two arrived at Mich City 2.P.M. thare was perhapes 1000, wating for us thare with provision for us we tole them we was not hungry but they begged us to take it so we accomodated them the lades at both places were paning[?] out side of the cares all of the time that we war thare (about an our) shaking handes with us as we put our head and hanites[?] out of the window telling us goodby and wishing us good �luck arrived at Jolliett 5 PM and crackers and coffee butt not good we[?] war dissatisfied in passing through Ilanois not many chearing for us thare the story is this morning that the Men and the Horses were attacked in that St and made bad worke but dont believe it for Curnll Davies was along[?] here a little while ago and said that he had got to detale men to go Down town after the horses he would not of dun it if he had not of known whare they war we passed through thar thar vary slow in the night arrived at Alton on the Missppa about sum Six left 1[?] AM sailed on the Soawaw[?] shore about 5 miles then we came to Missria O how the Folkes would leave thare houses and run to the bank to chear us arrived at St Louis 11 AM landed and stood in the dust about 1 our then we started for Camp in the [?] I believ that I ever saw just think of 100 men walking in sutch dust with as lite [?] we did not look lik men it seamed that would choak and we ware swetty and stut[?] in the wind until we got chillers we expected to get such when our rigament was called out for ralecalelinco[?] this morning I never herd so mutch coffing in my life but after breakfas thay seamed to feel [?] and [?] thay seam to feel as well as [?] and fel ancous to see the ennime, thay haye sham fifes[?] hear onse in awhile, at Joliett thare was 2 or 3, [?] that talked seckion it was told to all company and [?] Rosmarv[?] and to or three more went back to whip them but thay [?] so thay let them go this morning as sum of our officers was coming from town thare for the slelery two men said he must be a fol to carry any thing to them for thare had oll ought to be [?] offerser could not sand it so thay went them and made them cave in, as we passed along through the City and camp we would hear the men say that it was the best rigment that thay had seen for all solers are so [?] hear people would stand and Cook as so thay wareammased, and [?] it is most time to go on Dres parad I must close you will egrese[?][?] for my hand shakes with tecole[?] I will finish anothe time pleas Direct to Mssura Camp Benton James B Sabin Comp F 2. Mich Calvary � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4907-3 Title A name given to the resource James B. Sabin Civil War papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1861-11-17 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sabin, James B. Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army. Michigan Cavalry Regiment, 2nd (1861-1865) Description An account of the resource Official documents and correspondence of James B. Sabin, Company F, 2nd Michigan Volunteer Calvery, 1861-1863. Certificates and oath of identity, and correspondence from Camp Benton, St. Louis, Missouri, and an article from the Grand Rapids Press, May 10, 1961. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a770bd64a99c85210cdd6a226996f5a.pdf 44c9edd97e89efcb32d26b1a06a44ef4 PDF Text Text ���� https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/68f5d0d7c15284e04856cfa49310f6ce.pdf dea1aaa2f303da6bc4c813752ebc73d8 PDF Text Text Benton Barracks, Dec. 3, 1861 The first snow came the nigh of the firs to day we are a having more and very cold this morning as Javert[?] to see to my horse my whiskers ware froze and before thay can wash and wipe the Dickies thay wil befrose so you see that it is cold hear as wel as thare but we are in good barracks have a stove and a plenty of close so that you may know what we have to do I wil tell you what we have in the first plase we have a horse to feed water and clean and go nearly a mile to do that you may think strange of that but you must remember thar is many of them and me in hear and cant be all in one plase, then thare is a holter[?] saddle, tow bridles, one brush, one sursingle two blankits, one cap, one hat �one pare of shuse two p stockings four of shirtes two of Drawers one suit of close one pair of overhales covers me up except a small plase on our back [?] saber revolver and Carbine that is a short rifle when we get them our seales[?] besides gloves and uther little things if we lose the we have them to pay for them thare is our Dril and eating besides so you see that we have something to do. I herd sum of the boys say last nig that since they had bin hear thay had spent sum six sum ten dollars for something to eat whiles I had spent five centes and that for milk the most that I spend is paper invelopes and stampes. 4t.[?] night before last the grand froze sum six inches one boy in our Big [?] with inflammation on the lunges[?] thare was 50 fifty Dollars rased to take him home near Loil[?] before you receive this he wil be home thar his name is Davidsin thare was a peas in the paper last eavning stating that all Cavelry that was not compleat was to be mustered out un les thay joined the infantre if that should be true you wil see me home the fifth fary plesant snow goin[?] Don’t know how sutch a Dir charges will agree with me just bin a washing my [?] yesterday strolled around the country sum. Thare is a plenty of hickrenuts yet on the ground The papers state this morning that thare is five men appointed to settle the matter I would say we shal not Draw our pay just staped [stopped?] to by 5 centes worth of apples [?] thay last) (the wind just beloed of of ov the table and Durted it) �before the first of next month and perhaps not then so you had better hurry up those that ow you and use it to the best advantage pay Davis[?] [?] eavning just received your letter I had givup receiving one until next weak felt mutch better for receiving it [?] mine suted for I rote as I felt I told you that I was out yesterday you know that I am lucky thare was fore of our Co got cetched[?] out today & Sargen & Corprals I wish you could see the little Drummers lois. Thare is sum as smal ant yes smaller than Ed Covites boy and sum like George and bin battles to it is quite amusing evry night at nine oclock. The bugle soundes hed quarters and it is taking up a round the camp by Drumes and bugles to how many [?] I do not know it is the same at 6 A.M. the [?] as pleasant as sumer to day yesterday our Saddles and bridles ware condemned so you see how fast we get a long as I was a comming is at noon I saw a Corperal marching a woman ant two girles to the gard house. I wish you could see the artilary trane thay have six harsis attached to one gun and thay wil be a going say east on a good trot and sumer than you could turn one horse and bugge thay would be a going west on the same gate you say that my folkes want to hear from me thay dont think that every letter that I sind on sutch paper as this costes me sum seven centes and I want you should �eatch kind. You say that are a going to be Disappointed in mony you must [?] them sum and I should pay Mr Canady last I think he is the caus of your not Drawing you did not say whether you ware on the plase or not. my wife fales almost evry day I think it is consumtion & I shoul for old you that we all have a good tick filed with straw. the seventh vary rany and muddy we ware orded out an quartaly review at mine this morning we ware to have all of our thinges, with is as though we ware a going to take a tramp this is to learn us how I suppos this morning we all received a rope about fifteen feet long and an iron spike sum fortin inches long to drive in the ground the rope being attached to it to hitch our horsis to and let them feed in the summer I am thus particular so that you may know as near as possabel what we have and what we are a doing Dalielein[?] that I am lucky not with standing all the rain I believe I have not bin on gard in it once or twise and I am always in a good plase always at the first table anough to eat sum complaining all of the time. Thare is Stabbing for thurty nine horses in each company mine is in of corse. I wish that I could see you walk in the mud hear once just a little wayes you would think that you ware Drawing you land and you and indeed you would slip around for thare is no girt on the land hear just Drawed a new saddle and curracomb[?] and the saddle [?] compleat is composed of 91[?] plases ware care are strap is on the fore side of the saddle with a snap in the end so if I get a ceceshoase[?] I can just snap it in his bets and I have him perhaps I had ought to of spoke of my shuse handkerchiefs [?] for I have found two wallit and nightcapes James B Sabin � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4907-4 Title A name given to the resource James B. Sabin Civil War papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1861-12-03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sabin, James B. Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army. Michigan Cavalry Regiment, 2nd (1861-1865) Description An account of the resource Official documents and correspondence of James B. Sabin, Company F, 2nd Michigan Volunteer Calvery, 1861-1863. Certificates and oath of identity, and correspondence from Camp Benton, St. Louis, Missouri, and an article from the Grand Rapids Press, May 10, 1961. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cfc391c0a3b419a39e8784ee4e006180.pdf c066aec705be486dfd880603d9da8228 PDF Text Text ���� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4907-5 Title A name given to the resource James B. Sabin Civil War papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1861-12-11 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sabin, James B. Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army. Michigan Cavalry Regiment, 2nd (1861-1865) Description An account of the resource Official documents and correspondence of James B. Sabin, Company F, 2nd Michigan Volunteer Calvery, 1861-1863. Certificates and oath of identity, and correspondence from Camp Benton, St. Louis, Missouri, and an article from the Grand Rapids Press, May 10, 1961. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/260868aab3dca295c38886356facc67b.pdf 852394939bf09e35d4a3562260263785 PDF Text Text ���� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4907-6 Title A name given to the resource James B. Sabin Civil War papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1861-12-14 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sabin, James B. Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army. Michigan Cavalry Regiment, 2nd (1861-1865) Description An account of the resource Official documents and correspondence of James B. Sabin, Company F, 2nd Michigan Volunteer Calvery, 1861-1863. Certificates and oath of identity, and correspondence from Camp Benton, St. Louis, Missouri, and an article from the Grand Rapids Press, May 10, 1961. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e4e94dc41b28553a4fcf1ef32cd0a75.pdf 3939bb39dc6efb45af801468084a1a17 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4907-7 Title A name given to the resource James B. Sabin Civil War papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1961-05-10 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sabin, James B. Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army. Michigan Cavalry Regiment, 2nd (1861-1865) Description An account of the resource Official documents and correspondence of James B. Sabin, Company F, 2nd Michigan Volunteer Calvery, 1861-1863. Certificates and oath of identity, and correspondence from Camp Benton, St. Louis, Missouri, and an article from the Grand Rapids Press, May 10, 1961. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5760583b925689b2c98d5d980573c065.mp4 6b249415649bc6696649acb6b04500ae https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fd7d786f3cbf7cce24d046644f115567.pdf bdbcedba3ba569a7d63b12f04669892a PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: James Clover Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 2 [Clover] You do edit this, right? [Barbara] Of course, I do edit this one for you. Tell me, sum up in one sentence, you've got one sentence: What is the essence of William James College? [Clover] Interdisciplinary experience. [Barbara] What does that mean? I'm not sure. [Clover] It means that I got to rub shoulders with a whole lot of folks, all headed in different directions, and we exchanged information about our directions. [Barbara] Hi Dallas! [Dallas] [Inaudible] [Clover] And it was- I don't know. It was a willingness of a group of people to come together and try and understand what each other- what we were doing. What each of us were trying to do. That opportunity to talk about it, compromise. [Barbara] Did you come here to be in alternative college? [Clover] Yes, I've been in alternative arts school, but I had no idea what an alternative college would be about. And the first year I was here I stood around with my mouth hanging open. I did! I didn't- I don't know. I guess what William James did for me was it helped to make me listener. [Barbara] What do you mean? [Clover] I was so into being an artist and being an art teacher that it seems to be that art information was what I was primarily dealing with and I found out that I needed outside information to support my ideas. [Barbara] Like what? [Clover] [Laughter] Like what? Like anything. Life. Anything at all. I think when I came here, I was pretty, as far as art information goes, I was pretty burned out and I �needed to make contact with other people, with society as a whole, and the throwing together of many kinds of people in the William James situation gave that to me. [Barbara] What did we do wrong? [Clover] I don't think we did anything wrong. I think that we were, that the people… you mean administratively, what did we do wrong? I think that people didn't understand what we were trying to do. And maybe it was our fault that we didn't communicate it to them, or maybe they just didn't want to know. I don't know if that's a really good answer. What did we do wrong? I think we did… I don't know. Maybe we were in the wrong place [Laughter]. [Barbara] Okay, um- [Clover] You know, I don't know. I mean, I can sit here and talk to you about this and as soon as you get the camera on, I get strange. [Barbara] Well, don't get strange. [Clover] I know, I'm trying try not to. [Barbara] You're doing a good job, you don't look strange. [Clover] Well, I'm trying not to get [Strange Noise], you know. [Barbara] Now, that's strange. [Clover] Okay, well you know what I mean. [Barbara] Don't worry, we'll make it through this. Some people think we weren't doing a quality education for some of the students. Some of the students just slid through and didn't do shit. [Clover] Yeah, but see I think that's alright. I think it's okay to slide through and not do shit. I think that's a choice of the individual you know. If they don't get turned on during the process, tough. I think the same thing happens in the structure that we now operate under. And -it's just a different kind of symbol that's all. There are symbols there that say, you know, you did this, this and this, you then can slip by on C's and everything's just fine. It's really easy to get the C symbol, and we eliminated a symbol. I didn't see any problem with that at all. Because [Noise] you know, the people involved in the structure wanted it made use of it. It was there, they learned how. It was very creative. �[Barbara] So the key to what we were doing that people didn't understand was that we were inter-disciplinary. [Clover] I think so. I think that people never bothered to find out and you know when some kind of attempts were made to find out what we actually did… you can't drop in for thirty minutes and make a judgment on what's going on here. And I think that there should've been an element of trust involved. Just, you know, based on the experience of the group of people that are gathered together in William James they should have trusted us and said: "Hey, you know, they aren't stupid. They must be willing to do something right. I mean why are they here, you know? They're doing something, it was going well." It's a farce actually. I don't know. We were outnumbered, politically. We were never able to establish ourselves because it was a numbers thing, you know, the credibility thing. Thirty against how many? � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_18_Clover Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clover, James Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource James Clover interview (1 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with James Clover by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. James Clover was an art instructor of William James College and a renowned sculptor whose work can be seen on Grand Valley State University's campuses, including the "Heaven and Earth" sculpture located in the heart of Great Lakes Plaza. In this interview, James discusses the essence of William James College, his experience transitioning from an alternative arts school to an alternative college, and the misunderstandings surrounding being interdisciplinary. This interview is part 1 of 2 for James Clover. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Art Study and teaching Interdisciplinary approach in education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ca6b1b55e7c8698aa271047e7431d64.mp4 0ad93e83685e5d9deb8dd5ad1718d6b2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e35e47ad033009e1b411fd9e76c14363.pdf 40175bec014cfd18354f8e456169fb20 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: James Clover Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 2 [Clover] William James was an information exchange for all the people that were involved. And I think that in any disciple that you're pursuing, that you need information and that it was a good way to get it. And I don't know, you know. It was the first time that I had ever been involved with engineers, environmentalists, writers. Did we have musicians? We had some amateur musicians. [Barbara] [Inaudible]. [Clover] Right. We had philosophers, psychologist preachers, historians. All in one place. [Barbara] You know what, that was good. Keep thinking- keep talking. Repeat it to me. What was some… [Inaudible]? [Clover] Not bad. [Barbara] What can't you do now, Jim. I mean, here you are in your studio, it looks like your [?] totally. What can't you do now? Why do you need a structure? [Clover] Now, all I do is go to art faculty meetings and talk about problems that all art faculties have been dealing with since nineteen fifty-six and not getting any answers at all. I go to faculty meetings and no one ever talks about teaching. And I wonder about that and I'm still waiting to meet the first person that says they can't teach. And I don't know. I'm just sort of… I'm in an isolated kind of situation right now. As far as artists use information, by the ton. They need lots of information. More, and more, and more, and more information. I mean they eat it up. Now I have… now I'm having to go elsewhere for my information. I have to… I do, I leave the community. As far as productivity of my art goes, there's a lot more happening because I have to drive to Atlanta to find out what's going on. And I have to go to Chicago. And I keep six or seven shows going so that I remain active as an artist. To get the information I have to read more, which is not fine, I mean, I probably should have reading more anyway. I have to… I find myself seeking out things that were available in the William James situation. I have to find somewhere else, and they're spread all over the place. [Barbara] Did you find being at James absorbed so much of your energy you weren't as active in art as you are now? �[Clover] Yes. My involvement at William James was a much more intense teaching situation than I'm currently involved in. Yes I had found myself using the majority of my energy in the James situation. [Barbara] Do you resent that? [Clover] No, I don't resent that. I consider that a real growth process for me. [Clover] I was genuinely burned out as far as creativity goes, when I came to James and that kind of experience gave me a renewal that I'm using now. [Barbara] Well, it sounds like it worked out alright for you that James closed. [Clover] Pardon? [Barbara] It sounds as though it was opportune that James closed. [Clover] No, I don't think so. I think that I would rather have that and less art involvement. I mean it was very important for me. Or I'd like to have some of each. Or I would like to have the opportunity to jump out of the James experience, be an artist, for a while, and jump back in. Which would have been ideal. [Barbara] Can you see ways that students needed the structure… let’s put it, forget the way I asked that. You said you're isolated. How are the students different under the current structure of James? We've been talking a lot about your feelings at James, but what about the people coming through? [Clover] Well, the students were actively involved in the total process of the evolution of the James experience and through community meetings and interactions with the disciplines there was a lot of student involvement. The difference I think is that there was a more complete… for the James student, it was a more total involvement in what living is all about, rather than jumping from specialty to specialty or from building to building. And there seemed to be a relationship there and interaction that doesn't take place in a traditional education. My students come in for three hours a day and then they run off somewhere else. [Barbara] Goodbye. [Clover] Goodbye. Whereas at James we were involved, you know, ten, twelve hours a day. And I knew what they were doing and I knew who they were. And I knew their joys and I knew their troubles. [Barbara] Therefore could teach them better? �[Clover] Sure. Of course. They knew me. I was willing to tell them about me and they were willing to tell me about them. [Barbara] Why did you ask me if anybody cried? [Clover] I don't know. I have a real sadness about the closing of it because it seemed to be an expanding structure, whereas traditional education expands much more slowly. And it’s very difficult to communicate across disciplines in a college situation. Very hard to get their attention. They don't listen. Seems like, you know, whatever the popular education mode is the time, an example, computers, I mean where the interest goes. And there's a great expense to people who think a liberal education is important because of the jumping around from disciple to disciple. I'm sure in ten years it might be something else. I have no idea what it might be. Who knows. Restaurant Management, Nursing, all career-oriented stuff. I talked to a nursing student the other day in the faculty lunchroom: the Oak Room. Which I swear I'd never go into. Because somehow, I thought that it was better for me to eat with the students because we could interact that way and they would know who I am. Now I go to the Oak Room, my friends go there. This girl was talking to me, she butchered the English language, I corrected her, she was embarrassed. And I asked her what level student she was and she said she was fourth year nursing. And I said Lord girl you need to learn how to speak the English language. And she apologize all over herself. And somehow it leaves a void in me when I run into people like that who are supposedly getting an education and I wonder what happened. How did she miss English 110, how did she miss literature, how did she miss writing? And it's not required for her? I think that she leaves us in ways that will hurt her later on. I think that she could have a better life. I think she could be a better decision-maker by being multi-disciplined. Or at least multi-aware. Aww man. So that what I think William James is about. [Barbara] [Inaudible] of shit. Nobody said that. Not one person has said that. [Clover] It pisses me off, it does. [Barbara] What? [Clover] It pisses me off that people categorize themselves and limit their experience. I can't stand. I don't know any of the philosophy people here. I don't know any of the historians here other than ex-William James people. I don't know any of the English people, other than Robert Mayberry. And Ros. Is Ros in the English department still as an adjunct person? Committed lifelong adjunct. And they never come by, you know. But then again, I never go by either. So, who knows, you know. So, it's just these isolated pockets. I go to all college faculty meeting and the politics are so involved that there is no exchange of information. Pure politics. And it seems to be some kind of, I don't know, I find it really interesting �that for the salaries, for the amount of money that people make in higher education, that they are that cutthroat about their interactions and relationships with others. It all seems to be territory protection. [Barbara] Do you think that happened at William James College? [Clover] I don't know. It was like it was not allowed, or it couldn't happen, or the nucleolus of faculty was all small. And the fact that we were all thrown together dissolved that. And it also… outside pressures forced us to us stick together. And we did, as much as possible. I think we really did. And the, you know, the exchanges of information in the James situation. I mean it's, you know, I'm not trying to make this all sound like it was a glorious, wonderful, la la la la la, whatever. It wasn't. It was intense. Oftentimes unnerving. You know, a willingness… my biggest problem was the willingness to listen to other people and what they really had to say and trying to figure out what they're really saying and then deal with that in a reasonable manner. It's not my nature to do that and I was forced into that, and it was super. And I watched that happen to the students. The place allowed you to shoot your mouth off and make a fool out of yourself and people would still back you. Which was kind of neat. I guess while I was there I didn't feel like I really had to protect myself, career-wise. Or I did not have to be as careful what I say or what I do. Probably in that case, you know, when you have that kind of feeling there's a better exchange of information between you and the people you're dealing with. And I don't know and I also I felt a certain kind of protection. I felt like I could go into a class and say what I and can talk about what I felt I knew at the moment, or what I know, and not have the kind of kick back or reaction that I would have in students who weren't oriented in that way. A lot of misunderstanding and I find myself being more careful in class. I don't swear anymore. I gently tell people… I gently try to tell people what it's like to try and be an artist, rather than, maybe I'm not as pushy or demanding. I don't think. Something happens, you know, something happened there. Yeah, we used to just, I don't know, it seems to me like you know, we used to just really it. Get down on what trying to make a drawing is all about. Or what trying, you know, dealing with design principle, what it's all about. And I guess the students, they intuitively understand that we were trying to help them and did not… whereas in the standard kind of teaching situation, it seems like a lot of people come there to be offended. And they're looking for that, and they're offended easily. And they complain. And you end up in the chairman's office, trying to explain what you were trying to do. And it seems real crazy to me that I should have to justify being what I am or what I'm trying to express. And I think these are real cheap shots of people who do not have much background or who really don't understand, and maybe don't want to. Or at least, I don't know. I don't know if the opportunity is there for them to understand. Seems like the schools are afraid of the students. I mean they're so afraid that they aren't going to have enough, that they are going to fill the classroom. And we're told that, you know, numbers are important and �we keep cramming in more and more numbers and there's less and less interaction between us and the students. And it's kind of sad. And I guess I understand the numbers game, the numbers mean money. [Clover] But maybe that's the wrong way to go about it. Maybe you should risk it and maybe you would have the numbers if the information was flowing correctly. [Barbara] We did in the Media Department. We did. [Clover] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We still do. [Barbara] We still do? [Clover] Yeah, like crazy, you know, which is really neat. And I really feel really bad about that. I feel bad that the Art Department at Grand Valley State College is separate from the Media Program is just absolutely ludicrous to me, and it was a pure policy. It was a numbers game. And some of us who happened to be titled artists lost. And we were thrown into an Art Department. Whereas we really preferred to have the whole thing evolve as a cohesive group, and I certainly hope that could happen. [Barbara] [Inaudible] the sculpture now? [Clover] Sure. [Barbara] Is there anything else you want to say? I think we're near the end of the tape. [Clover] No, I, you know, I miss it. And when I walk, you know, I walk across campus and I see some of ex-faculty members of William James, you know, I kind of feel like, you know, God, I used to really know this guy and feel like I really knew him in a professional way and now I don't, you know, it's slipped away and that's too bad. So, we all… we meet each other shake hands and say how's going it and everybody says is going just fine. And I guess it is, you know. Life goes on and it evolves. So, what? Life's a bitch then there's death. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_19_Clover Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clover, James Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource James Clover interview (2 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with James Clover by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. James Clover was an art instructor of William James College and a renowned sculptor whose work can be seen on Grand Valley State University's campuses, including the "Heaven and Earth" sculpture located in the heart of Great Lakes Plaza. In this interview, James discusses how William James College was an "information exchange" for its faculty and students, the importance of working with a community of diverse backgrounds, and the eventual separation of the Arts and Media concentration into two departments at Grand Valley. This interview is part 2 of 2 for James Clover. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Art Study and teaching Interdisciplinary approach in education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75c1ac275fe6e4eccb1b4b70ad087c1f.pdf 122bfec583fec1e67ed661b45363013a PDF Text Text � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e455db43f3a7bec3521f61079da1ea0.pdf e645ce89bcfc42650a0f05fb82d36e94 PDF Text Text Steubenville Ohio April 10, 1847 To the President, Sir; The Rev John Scott, Principal of the Grove Academy of this place, and a minister of high standing in the Presbyterian Church, desires to be appointed Chaplain in the Navy. Mr. Scott has been a resident of this place for many years and has acquired a high character for piety, learning and professional attainments. He was recommended during the late [?] by the democratic members and Senator from Ohio, and also by the Rev Dr Edgar of Nashville to whom he is personally known. His appointment would secure faithful & efficient services to the government, and gratify the people of this state, to whom his merits as a minister and instructor are very generally known. With great respect Your Obt Sert Edwin M Stanton � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4381 Title A name given to the resource James K. Polk from Edwin M. Stanton Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1847 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stanton, Edwin McMasters, 1814-1869 Subject The topic of the resource Stanton, Edwin M. (Edwin McMasters), 1814-1869 United States. Navy Military chaplains Polk, James K. (James Knox), 1795-1849 United States--Politics and government--19th century Steubenville (Ohio) Ohio Description An account of the resource Letter to President James K. Polk from future Lincoln Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton recommending Rev. John Scott for Chaplain of the Navy. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/870ffcd062432be3aac10b9c3adc8e72.jpg f97179b6ba757fbe9afed864e7590e81 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000325 Title A name given to the resource James M. Copeland House Description An account of the resource James M. Copeland House, now Copeland Living Center. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/37c67765aba76ddb894c011ee7e8e80a.pdf 4548d3f60f89f4bd71fa9e04521fbf64 PDF Text Text Grand Valley Writers Series Dramaturg and Author of the Novel Sugarless Jarries Magruder "A Life in Theatre" Thursday, Jan. 21, 2:30pm Performing Arts Center 1506 "Becoming a Novelist" Thursday, Jan. 21, 4pm LG BT Center, Ki rkhoff Sugarless A NOVEL James Magruder teaches translation and adaptation at the Yale School of Drama and dramaturgy at Swarthmore College. He wrote the book for the Broadway musical Triumph of Love, and his fiction has appeared in The Gettysburg Review, The Harrington Gay Men's Fiction Quarterly, Bloom, Subtropics, and the anthology Boy Crazy. All are welcome to attend. Sponsored by the Department of Writing � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_LGBTQ_2010_Writers-Series-James-Magruder-Poster.pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-01-21 Title A name given to the resource James Magruder: Dramaturg and Author of the Novel Sugarless Description An account of the resource Poster with information on the author, and information of the event, including the place, time and date. Part of the Grand Valley Writers Series. Subject The topic of the resource Sexual minorities Community centers Drama--Technique Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Rainbow Resource Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1c0b68ede4de520b37a6a69daa6608a.pdf d8d9bddd88c90ede36718c3e84dfeae4 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: James Morton Interviewers: Seph Morkes Supervising Faculty: Kim Buechek Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/16/2012 Runtime: 00:41:58 Biography and Description James Morton talks about his family’s experience immigrating to the United States during the big flight of Puerto Ricans of the 1950s. He also discusses his experiences with discrimination in both Queens, New York and West Michigan. Transcript Seph: I am Joe Morkes. I am interviewing James Morton. James, would you, uh, be so kind as to tell me about yourself? James: How much do you want to know? Seph: Well, I’ll probably go through it, but um, any, anywhere you want to start. Because I’m going to ask you where you were born, family life, stuff like that. So you could just take it from the beginning. James: Well, I was born November 11, 1986, uh, in Saint John’s Hospital in Queens, New York. But I was raised from the very next moment in Manhattan. I stayed in Manhattan until I left for college at the University of Buffalo in New York. And then I currently live in Allendale, Michigan pursuing my Masters Degree at Grand Valley State University. I am the son of James Edward Morton, Sr. and Carmen ***. Uh, my mom is of Puerto Rican background born in, um, Guadal, Puerto Rico. And my father is of African American descent and was born in Brooklyn, New York. My parents split when I’m.. Must have been around 2 or 3. So I was raised in a primarily single parent household however my dad was still around, so.. Weekends and that kind of thing. Uh, raised predominately by women. Ah, my mom, my older half sister, and my grandmother, and an assortment of cousins and aunts. Seph: Ok. Um, now you said, uh, your mom was of Puerto Rican descent? James: Uh huh, yep. Page 1 �Seph: Now, is she a first generation, um, Puerto Rican? Um, how was that, like how? James: I guess I would be technically first generation, born here. Seph: Ok. James: I guess I don’t really know how the first and second, um, works. I guess I would be first generation, American born, Puerto Rican. But she was born there, again, in Guadal, Puerto Rico, and I think she moved here, I think she moved to New York when she was 8 years old. Seph: Ok. James: So, during the 50s, during that big flight of Puerto Ricans… Seph: Gotcha. James: … to the United States. Seph: Ok. Um, now, um, are you bilingual, then? James: Naaa, not officially, I wouldn’t say I’m fluent in Spanish but I know when it’s being yelled at me. Seph: Ok. James: No, I mean I’ve obviously picked up some given that half of my family speaks it but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t claim that I’m bilingual but as far as Spanish, that’s the closest other language that I know. Seph: Mmm hmm. Ok. Um. Now I guess, um. Do you know where, um, your parents met? Um. James: Yea, um, they actually worked, um, I think it was landlord and tenant court for Manhattan. Um. My dad, actually, I believe substituted for her supervisor one day, something like that, and that’s how they initially met. And then, um, they met, um, in the criminal court system. The United Courts of New York. Seph: Ok. Very cool. Um. James: Oh, the Unified Court System of New York. I think that’s what it’s officially called. **** Umbrella companies. **** Seph: Now how about, um, childhood, like as far as schools? Um. Did you go to a public private school? How about telling me a little about that? Page 2 �James: I guess for my first bout with schooling, I went to this program that they had started because my mom worked for the court system so they had this program called “Fed Kids” which was essentially a day care program for employees of both New York State and the Federal Government, uh, essentially day care for civil servants. And, uh, I must have started that, I mean, I may have been, two or three I guess, it’s at whatever age you start interacting with people. And, uh, I mean, that was obviously finger painting and toys. But then I started going to Catholic school in pre-kindergarten. And I assume that must have been, maybe, that might have been three, maybe three into four, because I have a late birthday in November, so. I was always the youngest kid in my class for the most part. And um, did pre-K and Kindergarten at Immaculate Conception School, which was very old school Catholic, and complained about it pretty much every day. I used to stage escapes. I was once found, uh, trying to push open the door at the front of the school. Meanwhile my class was on the 2nd floor, so, no one knows how I got away. Um, and then went to public school for 2 years. That’s where I learned how to fight and to curse and how to be a terrible human being. So I actually volunteered to go back to Catholic school because I realized I was pretty much on the fast track to hell at that point. And, uh, in 3rd grade returned to Immaculate Conception School. It was a K through 12, no a K through 8, and stayed there until I graduated in 8th grade. Then I went to LaSalle Academy, which was a Catholic High School, um, run by the Christian Brothers, which were started by, uh Saint Jean Baptiste de LaSalle and, um, I really enjoyed it. Um, my four years it was one of those, it was, it was very tough obviously, it was a very particular years in a person’s life. Definitely grow and learn a lot. Um, girls were introduced into the mix sorta, but it was an all boy’s school, so, uh. Actually, it’s in hindsight, I actually appreciate that because I feel like it actually kept me focused. And um school wasn’t so bad. Then after that, I went to the University of Buffalo for 5 years. Now I’m at Grand Valley for grad school. Seph: Ok. Um. Then, uh, I’ll probably get a little bit more specific with that, um, as, I might, I might jump back to, um before college, but uh, as far as University of Buffalo, uh, what made you decide on that? What made you decide to go to the University? Was it something that was expected? Was it something that you… *** James: Essentially, uh, I feel that universities and colleges, at least from, I guess the New York perspective.. From like a city like New York where there’s a high demand for higher education, um, and is such a financial center of the world that going to college, it was expected. I mean, I uh, I would have to say that I went to school with a lot of people at, um, at Buffalo that probably were not cut out for college but you weren’t really given too many other options. I remember even for my graduating class I think there were only two or three guys that were just going straight into the work-force, you know, like obviously, I feel it is generally less common, um, but I feel just like in a Metropolitan area like that that Page 3 �it’s, even, you know less so. And um, I actually chose Buffalo kind of, it sounds terrible, but um we have the State University of New York application, but um, because we have our state schools, and you’re supposed to choose 4 schools. I had Stonybrook University was my number one. Um, the University at Albany was my number two. And, uh, SUNY Gennesea *** which was in the middle of nowhere but is a fantastic school was my third. Those were the solid three, like, those were the ones I really wanted to go for and then I was all like, I need a fourth one and I heard Buffalo was alright. So I put down Buffalo and um I get in. They’re interested. They think, um, they think I’m doing um, I could do well. And I got into, um, well I got into all of them actually and just decided… I feel like Buffalo would be a nice change, that it would be different and um, and it’s also the second largest city in New York and I felt um it would be less drastic of a change from home to Buffalo. Uh, that was entirely incorrect. Um, the difference in population, I think… New York City was somewhere around 9 million and Buffalo was about 2 or 3. Seph: Right. James: Which is sounds foolish, but. But uh, it made a huge difference. Also it was an entirely different walk of life. But um, I mean, it was interesting and I’m glad I ended up there. I mean it obviously had its ups and its downs, but. I would say generally it was a nice second home, you know, I’d say for the time being. Seph: Um. When you were in high school, did you play any sports? Or even before? James: No. I guess, um, as far as through the high school, um, theater club, um like drama club was actually my big thing. But, if I had a say a sport throughout high school, um, martial arts I guess would be my sport. Um, I wasn’t really into it for the competitive purpose. I was more into it, I guess, I mean obviously for self-defense. Not that I had really any, any issues with that. It wasn’t like I had the uh hard knock life upbringing, but, um, I really respected the idea and the culture that kind of came along with it, so. It became a really big part of my life. I kept up a little bit during um, my undergraduate at Buffalo, but, just through all the other stuff that I had to do, it kind of died down a little bit. Seph: Was that, um, something you did outside of school? James: Yea. I, uh, I took Kung Fu at a school. It was, um, it was called **** Kung Fu, it was out of Chinatown. And um, I think their system is like the Black Tiger system or something like that. That was like their specialty. But, um, almost every Kung Fu school does like the, they almost have like the geneds of, you know, like Kung Fu, and then I, um, actually started taking up this martial art called ******** from Indonesia. And um, I learned that. One of my sister’s really good friends, he was a uh, a teacher from the Warrior System. Which is this international group of martial artists that, basically take a Page 4 �little bit from different forms of martial arts and put them together because they feel that all martial arts systems for the most part are pretty incomplete. So, put the strengths of all of them together and put a little bit from here and there and you’d make one martial artist that is better rounded than someone who is married to one system. And uh, eventually got exposed to ****** and it’s such an, it’s such a little known system here that he uh basically started hand-picking students to kinda just start working sort of like out of his house was like the original studio. And um, that’s, uh, that was the last system that I learned from. And I really enjoyed it. I still like, remember some stuff, but um. Yea. So that was my sport, I guess. No football. Unlike everyone, uh, every other guy in Michigan. Seph: And that, um, last system… That was when you were in college? James: No, no, no, that was, uh, I’d say junior and senior year of high school. Seph: Ok. Um, now theater… Is that something that uh, you did all throughout high school? James: Yea, for the, for the most part, uh, I was pretty heavily involved from the get-go. I heard it’s where you met girls, so… Kinda jumped at that. But acting had always been something that I liked doing. I did it a few times, actually, before high school. Um, and I don’t know. I guess it just drew me in and I felt like I was actually pretty good at it so. It was something to do. Seph: Ok. Very cool. And now you said a way to meet girls was a, but you were at an all boy’s school.. James: Right. We had girls come from the other, come from the all girls’ schools. ****** girl spots because…Yea, we didn’t want any guys in dresses. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Seph: Um. Ok. Let’s uh, I might be back to some of that stuff in a little bit. James: Ok. Yea, that’s fine. Seph: Um, but, as far as Western Michigan goes, how did you end up coming to Michigan? How did you end up figuring on Grand Valley? And just tell me about that. James: Uh. I guess I would have to say, uh, embarrassingly enough, my biggest motivation was, I saw Grand Valley compete at a cheerleading Nationals in Daytona. Uh I guess it was what? 3… Yea, about three years ago, I guess. And um, I just saw them and kind of thought cheerleading was a sport that I got into really late in college. Um, I played rugby before that, as you know, and, um, I just thought, well I mean I had thought about obviously school after college, especially because I was a history undergrad, so… There’s not much that you can do with that by itself and I decided that well, maybe I can get this cheerleading thing to start paying for some of my education and I looked into Grand Valley and found Page 5 �that they actually had a Masters of education program for adult and higher ed. It was basically half education, half history. I thought “Wow, that’s actually pretty perfect.” Because I think that I should have some sort of education background as well as history. And, um, I basically, I had a talk with one of my old teammates. I was just looking for something new. I mean at that point I had pretty much outgrown Buffalo. And I wasn’t ready to go back home yet. Not out of an I don’t want to move back in with, you know, my mom, but more of a, I felt like I still had some growing to do and I didn’t think, I didn’t think I was going to get, um, I was going to get back home, so… I had even contemplated just moving somewhere, like maybe like Nebraska, or you know, like one of those white states that we don’t know much about. And then Michigan came up with Grand Valley, so I thought “Grand Rapids? Michigan? Never heard of it. Maybe I should.” ***** should do it. I wanted to see if I could transplant myself to some place and um, you know, make it work. Work around it and see how the rest of the country was and get out of my New York state of mind, so… That’s essentially how I kind of ended up out here. Seph: Ok, and uh… I don’t mean to take a step back, but you mentioned that you cheer. James: Yea. Seph: You mentioned rugby. Um, and a little bit about outgrowing Buffalo… But um, taking a step back to Buffalo, um, how was your experience there? Um, your undergrad experience. Uh, you know, can you tell me any funny stories or anything you want? James: Right. Seph: About how you got into dabbling with rugby and how’d you get into cheer? James: Well, I guess I’ll tell the rugby and cheer stories first because those are, I feel like, the easiest ones. Um, rugby had been one of those sports, growing up in New York City, we had field sports, but not to the same degree as like, I guess, places with space for them. So, rugby had been um that sport that I would randomly catch on tv, you know, like, other like random cable, you know, ESPN like channels that show, those kind of, those kind of channels. And um, I saw rugby and every time I saw it, it was just so exciting. You know, I instantly was just instantly enthralled, just completely, just, it would, all my attention would be invested in rugby and I thought it was the most amazing sport. But, I guess in a sense, coming from the United States, it’s not around the corner, you have to kind of look for rugby. It’s a little more difficult to track down. And um, I would have to say a big downside to places like New York City is because of how, I guess, urban they are. It’s so expensive to do quote unquote like special sports. Like hockey, um, I think to just to join a league is like $3,000 a year or something like that. And that’s just, Page 6 �that’s just hockey, which is something people around here just do for fun. So, um, so rugby had always been something that interested me and then I ended up in Buffalo. Found out that they had a rugby team. And um, one of my fraternity brothers was on it. And so, talked to him and he was just like “Oh, you could come out to a practice.” And that’s how, you know, I got involved. Uh, really loved it. Had nothing, nothing negative about it at all. Like I mean, obviously, there’s like that rowdiness that comes along with rugby but, I didn’t mind it with them so much because they were rowdy, but they were good. So, it was nice to, it was, it was almost like cheating to instantly like walk onto a good team. And, um, obviously, I wasn’t on the A team, like you know, initially, just, you know, kind of went on and the coaches just said to go out there and figure it out. So… I mean it was fun. Um. It was a good season. And then, I, uh, dabbled in um, stand-up comedy, actually, for a while. And the president of our University of Buffalo Stand-Up Comic Society, the acronym UB SUCS, which they never caught on, um, he shows up to one of our meetings one day and he’s telling us, he’s like “Oh, I’m gonna go out for cheerleading tomorrow.” So we’re just like “Wait, what are you talking about?” and apparently his roommate had gotten approached by a girl in the gym. She said that she was a cheerleader and he should come out. So he goes home, and he’s like “This girl asked me to try out for cheerleading so this kid Andrew is all “I’m gonna go out and do it, you know, tell me the time.” So I hear about it, and I’m just like “That’d be brilliant for material. Like I should go to, like I should have a story about cheerleading tryouts that’s like ridiculous, obviously.” So I went there totally for the wrong reasons. Went there entirely to just drudge the hell out of them and make jokes about it and like, actually, you know, just try to push this, like, comedy career, um, off of it. And, um, from day one, it was one of those, like wow, this is actually pretty cool *** and, um, eventually and I didn’t know *** These are teammates that I still value their friendship, like amazingly, today. They’re just, um, some of, I would say, the best friends I ever made in my life and it’s probably how I got pulled into cheerleading. It was basically on a, not even on a, not a dare, just like on a joke, essentially. It was a joke and then I stuck with it. Um, but as far as my experience in Buffalo, I mean, I feel like, for the most part, it was definitely a generic experience, you know, you get like exposed to drinking and stuff, you know, very early. And everyone is like “Oh my God, this is awesome!” But I was part of that, um, small number of people that, I would say after a little bit, I was all like “I’ve had enough of this and I think there’s more to life than getting drunk every night.” And um, it definitely put a lot of weight on me to better myself. Um. Not like I was going down a bad path, but just, um, it definitely gave me the realization that if there was something out there that I wanted, I just had to go out and take it. And I had to work at it. And, if you put the work in or you put, or if you have the drive enough, like anything is possible. Um, I would have to say Buffalo, the University of Buffalo, was a fairly diverse school. Um, majority white, as, I would say that Buffalo is almost like a mid-west colony. So it kind of reminds me of schools around here. But, um, very diverse. Even Page 7 �internationally. Um, my freshman year, I lived on the international floor of my dorm which was because they ran out of rooms for normal people, so.. I ended up there and my roommates- one was from Turkey and one was from Hong Kong. And that was sweaty, so… ** laughter ** So I mean, it was, it was a little rough- the transition in the beginning. It was, I would have to say, one of those first nights in college. Just wasn’t awesome, but, um… I remember, actually, the 2nd night of my college career, um, my roommate had gotten invited to a party at the German house, um, on campus, well, not on, like right off campus and that was, I guess, if anything, that was essentially, like my first party of my freshman year, and everyone was from a different country and like it was, but it was cool. You know what I mean? It was just very different, um, and obviously I thought that I was going to meet like different people at college. Had no idea that it would be like that different so quickly. And, um, then, once I started getting into the swing of things, I started meeting everyone, made stupid freshman mistakes that I will spare from this interview, but, uh… I mean it was, it was good. There was no, um, I didn’t have any I guess, terrible situations, um… I tried the fraternity thing my first semester. You weren’t supposed to because first semester freshman aren’t supposed to pledge at UB. Um, so I thought I was such a bad ass, and… But then I mean, it was weird though, because I remember being in it, and I was in there for maybe 2 or 3 weeks, and I mean, we’re talking about like sleepless nights, just up late doing stupid shit the entire time and um, I like went to, uh, … the fraternity I was pledging had a party and they were just um, ripping on these girls like for no reason. Just ripping on these girls going just like *** our pledge master actually came down and he was like super drunk and he was talking about like these girls that he just, like, “Oh, I got her to blow me, you know, and I just tossed to her the side and like whatever…” And I realized, and I was like “I think the fraternity thing is really cool and all but *** misconstrued notions on how awesome it is.” Um, but I just thought, um, what means more to me? Getting letters on a shirt or being associated with these guys and I told *** “No disrespect, but I don’t think this is for me.” I mean, it was primarily because I thought that they were just terrible people and I figured, like, a fraternity is, like, it, it runs deep. It’s like the closest thing to a family that you have. I don’t want to be “your” family. It’s just not, I don’t, I don’t stand for the same things “you” stand for. So, um, I quit them. Obviously, I was like blacklisted from them the rest of my college career. And uh, then I ended up joining a business fraternity the next year. Um, the next fall, actually. And that was Alpha Kappa Psi (sp??) and I finished through that one. Um, it was co-ed so it was a little bit different. A lot cattier. And um, I mean I liked it because it was a fraternity and I still got that sense of brotherhood and had hilarious stories. I mean I, I feel like I have like classic fraternity stories with um AK Psi (sp??). Um, but I felt like it was a fraternity with purpose. You know, I mean, it wasn’t just a matter of, it wasn’t just a social group, it was a uh, it was a coming together of like-minded people for, I guess, to ah, pursue like personal passions and personal like motivations and um… I really enjoyed it and… Yea, I mean Buffalo was interesting because it wasn’t New York. It Page 8 �wasn’t like New York City at all. Um, it was an entirely different walk of people. Um, one of the girls, actually, from AK Psi (sp?), she told stories, joked around, but she wasn’t joking about how I was her first black friend. And um, actually, um, I dated one girl while I was up there and she was saying that I was pretty much like her third black friend or something like that. Like it always came up. *** Yea, exactly. And um, you know? It was, it was, it was the time, I mean, it was one of those… Yea, I guess class happened, um, for the most part, I was just figuring out who I was and stuff. And um, I guess ironically, um, I kinda became who I was while I was there but I didn’t realize it until I got here. Because, if anything, Michigan has been like the final exam and it’s… I would have to say it’s tough to go somewhere new and not… I guess, and not assimilate completely because, I guess I’ve reached a point in my life where I know certain things about myself that I like or at least I, that I value in my head as good. And… Those are things I just won’t let go of, you know what I mean? I mean it’s… on some degree it could be considered stubborn but I feel… I guess because I’ve been transplanted a couple of times now… You start to grab onto the things you feel identify yourself. You know what I mean? Um, I mean… My skin’s brown, so that’s always a *** for the identity issue but there are certain ideals and certain things I hold, I guess, I guess, I would say I hold dear to my heart that I feel um, you know, define me as a person regardless of like I guess the obvious stuff or you know, like, where I’m from. There’s just like the characteristics or the, uh, principles I hold… that um, I guess you don’t find everywhere. I didn’t realize that was one of those, I thought, I just assumed everyone learned the same set of values— some people just choose to ignore them. But, I have also learned that’s not always the case. And there are other values, you know, there are other values out there that, I mean work for some people, and there are others things that I’ve seen that are good, but, you know, aren’t for me necessarily, so… Seph: Um, actually that leads *** into, um, I mean, how would you, how would you uh, describe your own identity? James: In what respect? Seph: I mean, um, well you were just talking about how there’s things you hold onto and uh make you, I guess, the person that you see yourself as… James: Ok, yea… Seph: And I mean honestly, that could be whatever you want to do with that question. James: Well, I mean, I guess, uh, I’d have to say, I guess there’s, there’s two identities I feel we all have. We all have our American identity and then our universal identity in my opinion, um… As far as identifying myself, I’m… African American, Hispanic American, American American. And uh, I mean, Page 9 �but I would have to say, universally I’m I guess, in a sense it was like hard to accept, but like at the end of the day, um, as far as like upbringing goes, it was very ordinary, um, you know, I feel like I, I could be wrong but I feel like I had an upbringing just like anybody else, um… You know, forced to go to church every Sunday. You know, hating on it every Sunday. Um, you know, learning about all these traditions and all these, I guess, um, traits of gentlemanly conduct that were like infused into my brain and the thing I didn’t get was I didn’t see it anywhere else and I didn’t know what was like going on. And um… Oh, I forgot to mention this before… My dad is, um, my dad is 88 years old, so.. my dad’s up there. And um, I mean, truth be told, it was like one of those things that, when I was younger, you don’t notice the difference but I realize, now that I’m older, THAT definitely was like a huge thing because like my dad’s coming from like literally the old school. He’s coming from a very, like, almost structured gentlemanly uh code of conduct, you know, that we don’t have anymore and you know, I mean it really is.. um… And now we do the whole “We know what you meant.” Or you know, just get to the point… Like we almost have less patience for this almost societal dance, I guess that *** you know like being a gentleman is. And um, a lot of it communicates in the way that I dress and a lot of it communicates in um, like formal attire and stuff. Like I don’t *** all the weird little rules and stuff, and I don’t mean this in a condescending way at all, most people my age don’t know that they would even have to look for rules, you know, regarding this. Um even uh, even I would have to say, uh, like dating… There are certain things I just um, won’t do.. One thing that apparently blows the mind of everyone around here is um, I guess I come from a background where, let’s say I have a friend and he’s in pursuit of Girl X, or something like that. No matter how beautiful, or how amazing Girl X is, my friend has made it clear that is the girl for him and he’s chasing after her… I’ll, I’ll help him… I won’t pursue that. I feel like it’s ungentlemanly to go for another man’s girl, in a sense. And I don’t mean that in an ownership way at all. But I feel that it is more like a respect from one individual to another. Um, also, um in treatment of women… I feel like there’s, I’d have to say I’m an owner of like a modified chivalry. Um, I feel that women should be respected. Uh, and as far as, uh, female roles in society, I’m entirely against subservient women, um, I mean, I came from an all women’s household so, um, I obviously have a different view of the abilities and strengths of women and um… I truly feel that there, um, biologically obviously there’s a lot of difference, but, as far as ability goes, I mean if you’re thinking about sports, yes there’s a few hurdles that girls have to get past that, um, men don’t, but… um, for the most part I feel, you know, they’re, I guess almost to an extent *** should almost treat women better than men because I’m coming from a different, I’m almost educated from that old school on how to treat women. Um, but even in, um, the way you approach people, um, like not gender specific at all, uh, one thing I notice I do is, if I’m wearing a baseball cap or like that… When I talk to someone, like, let’s say at a store and I need to ask someone a question, I always take off my hat. And it’s a very weird thing. I mean even I noticed it Page 10 �like once in a Subway, you know, like restaurant. I take my hat off and ask someone a question, or like I tell them my order type of thing. I just feel there are certain little, there are certain little like, quirks to me that I um attribute to my upbringing and stuff. I mean it’s one of those, at first I thought it was weird, but I guess now, I guess now that I don’t see it so much I kind of value it as being a part of me. Um, little stuff like that. I’m sure there’s thousands of more little instances but, I mean I guess I’d have to identify myself as a generally good and moral person. Obviously not perfect at all. Um, but I feel that generally my motivation is the betterment of myself on the, you know, universal scale- like, so, morally, academically, professionally, etc. Um, and, I mean, as far as cutthroat nature, especially in the business world today, I’m just not about that. I, I’m.. I guess I’m more, I guess I’m more focused on like harmony and peace… Not in a hippie way, but, obviously I accept that, you know, things can’t always be happy… Things can’t, no, everyone can’t always win. But, you know, there’s no excuse for mistreating other people. I mean, even if they deserve it sometimes, I mean, essentially there’s, you know, there’s some occasions where there, *** essentially but, um, like just little stuff like being rude.. I just feel life’s too short to treat anyone less than anyone else in a sense, you know. Don’t just talk to people when you want something from them. Don’t just talk to people when you want their money. You know, just talk to people. In a sense, just enrich your human experience. That’s kind of, I guess, how I identify myself as just being a, I guess, in a sense, almost like a humanist romantic kind of thing, like… Everything is beautiful. Everything is terrible but you just have to make it work and get along, you know, make things keep going. Essentially. Seph: Ok. That’s awesome. Um. And then, I mean, I guess, I’m going to ask you a few more things. I don’t mean to pigeon hole you but, it’s just uh. Um. That was great. Um. But I guess, um, you mentioned a little bit um, on sort of religious upbringing. Do you… uh… how do you feel about your religion? How would you say *** ? James: Religious upbringing was uh, it was a little, it was a little awkward, I guess, because I was born and baptized Catholic. My mom was Puerto Rican, so… Obviously any place in the world that is Spanish influenced is Catholic for the most part. They were very good on selling Jesus and Company. But, um, when I was about, I must have been 5, my uh, one of my mom’s good friends invited her to her church and it was a, uh, nondenominational church. Um, however, I believe it had more of a Pentacostal style so, Protestant, and um… My mom went to it. And my mom is very, very religious. Very, she was very strict Catholic but she played it by the book, you know, she was very structured, you know, everything had to go along with uh what the Bible said. Once she got this experience of this more, in a sense organic, religious experience to her, she converted to Protestantism and um, I was caught in the middle because I was going to Catholic school. So I’m going to Catholic school 5 days a week and then I’m going to Bible Page 11 �school at this new place one day a week trying to relearn everything that I just learned over the last week essentially. And um, obviously when you’re 5, you get dragged into whatever your parents get dragged into, so… I, uh, became, uh, Pentacostal eventually I was baptized in the Pentacostal church. And, um, I would say up until high school is about when my mom was a little, I guess, less adamant about me going to church. Made it more about oh, if you want to go. And um, it would be one of those things where once in a while I’d like go, um… Actually just had a flashback to the one night, there was a very special like teen focus thing, um, I must have been 16 and I think that was the first night I ever got drunk. So I didn’t go and I felt really terrible cuz when my mom asked me how it was and I said “Ya had to be there,” and… Which is the most, uh, appropriate lie, but… *** (laughter) But it was um, I guess it’s one of those things where, um… Went to Buffalo *** obviously more churchy things. I eventually just kind of just lost the taste for um my mom’s church. I, I didn’t really like the people that were there. At least the more obvious people that were there and I, um, kind of resting in a school of thought where, I mean, I went to Catholic school my whole life. I, um, I know all of the moves, um you know all of the ideas, I know all of the principles and… I always, I guess, I always refer to myself as a freelance Christian, where if anyone were to ask me what am I, I would say a Christian. I wouldn’t deny it or anything like that. It’s like, nothing ever changed but I am less vocal about it because, for me personally, it’s kind of just my personal guide. It’s just how, it’s, if anything, it’s a system of morals that I choose as, um, as like my, um, moral structure but… um, I just, I guess I never mix with a group that I’m like that very big into and… Church always gets too religious. It becomes, just, um, it becomes just very routine and very perfunctory. Part of me thinks that’s not really the idea. You know what I mean? I mean I feel like we’re supposed to believe in a living deity doing the same thing at the same time every week may not be exactly what he’s into. And I mean, uh, it could be. I guess that’s like obviously the idea that most people like have. But I feel, if you live your life and, I guess, I, let’s say, let’s take a week out of your life and you can reflect and you see that every interaction you had with someone, a stranger or someone from *** and look at how you dealt with the situation. Look at how you deal with situations placed upon you. What did you act.. I feel if you act kind of with that, um, Christian background, that kind of like moral push behind you, I feel in a sense you’re always at church in a sense. You know what I mean? Like, you don’t just have to just be good because you’re singing songs and you know, doing all the prayers in front of other people. Like if you kind of have that, um, that Christianity in your life and in your normal actions, I feel essentially that’s like the main point, you know what I mean? So… Seph: Awesome. Um. How about, uh, politically? James: Politically what? Seph: Which way do you swing? Page 12 �James: Oh. I mean, it’s weird, actually. I guess if I had to choose for myself, I would have to, probably claim moderate. Which is weird because I’m black. But, um, I feel as far as liberalism goes, I’m definitely more into *** well, I once took a class that was divided into liberalism and conservatism *** Being a conservative is like being a father. You’re not as forgiving as the mother. You want people to kind of like toughen up and get themselves like out of their situations. And then liberalism is more like the mother, the nurturer, the one, oh you know, you fell down, let me help you up… That kind of thing. So obviously programs like welfare, that kind of thing would be under the Liberal umbrella. But, personally I feel there’s a mix. I mean with every dichotomy you can’t ever truly pick one side. I mean, even, I mean even between things like good and bad. I mean yea, you can try to be good all the time, but there’s some situations where you have to be a little rough. You know, you don’t necessarily have to do the nice thing. Well, nice and mean, I guess, would be a little more appropriate than good and bad. But, um, so I would say moderate. I agree that some people, well, I guess that all people should be given the opportunity to have some sort of assistance, uh, especially, I mean economically, like obviously it happens, you know, I mean as far as programs like *** what welfare used to be and like um, obviously are very good in my opinion. I do feel that while given assistance, people should not necessarily be held unaccountable. So, and more of like, I guess like a Republican or a Conservative view… You still have to get yourself out of it, but we’re willing to help you. It’s almost like… It’s like I am a fan of helping those that will help themselves kind of thing. So… I’m kind of right in the middle where, especially, um… Like, uh, I guess, uh, I guess since we’re in Michigan, the whole auto industry situation. Um, I understood and didn’t understand the whole bail out thing. However, I guess, in the long run, I guess I appreciate that it happened because… On the one hand, you can’t, you can’t disregard the well-being of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people based on the wrong-doings of certain corporate head men, you know. But, um, by helping them out, things have actually kind of turned around, so… Like you can’t punish them because of them, but you have to give them the money in order for it to get to them. So there’s almost like a catch-22 type of situation where the people that mishandled the money are the ones that are getting the money again, which, you know, doesn’t make sense, but, um… It sounds as though the federal government held them a lot, um, very accountable for everything that’s going on. I heard that, um, GM is now, um, back to number one car producer, um, brand in the world again. So, I mean, it’s one of those… It worked out, though, I would say it was more of a Liberalist idea. Um, and, I mean as far as the whole, I mean like the big Republican thing is like picking yourself up from the boot straps. Like, oh my family was poor, my grandfather worked really hard, so that’s how we got our money. That kind of thing. I mean that’s like the generic, like, you know, Conservative, like background story. And, um, I guess it’s like one of those things where I’m *** I’ve been in a lot of situations like where uh, you know, I’ve been blessed with a lot of assistance, like, from my family and just like a lot of support, but… when Page 13 �it comes down to actually doing things, like nothing was like handed, you know, to me. Like you have to actually work at it, you actually have to put the effort in. And, um, I guess… Seph: Well…I heard you were a vegetarian… James: well a pescetarian; I had the unfortunate duty of cleaning out a meat locker filled with rotten meat. Back in August my mom got our apartment painted and the painters forgot to re-plug the freezer and I am the one who discovered it and so obviously as a service to my mom, I cleaned it up and it was terrible. So ever since then I chose not to eat meat; just one of those…I was kind of traumatized and just thought: I don’t feel comfortable eating anything that could become what I saw so…I am a pescetarian, and I guess I realized that in a weird way, I kind of justified being a pescetarian after the fact of becoming one, just to see if there were any good enough reasons to return back to it; to meat eating rather, and I actually realized it sounds dumb...but I guess…you always hear about all the hormones and additives that they add to...rather that they put into beef and chicken and um I’d have to say in my daily life I feel: I guess I feel better, its easier to wake up in the morning; you don’t feel so crappy or lousy the next day and I mean its one of those where it could be a placebo effect or I guess I like to think that its not given that I wasn’t expecting it and then after a while I just kind of felt: ohh I feel a little better, um I don’t feel as lousy, I mean not that I woke up every morning feeling achy, but I just didn’t really feel…I guess as held down as I had previously and uh I like to attribute that to the… I guess lack of all the other stuff in my diet and being a pescetarian had an inadvertent advantage where as far as going to McDonald’s and stuff there is nothing for me there…so you kind of just cut out your crappy eating just by getting that. And I mean again, that just comes down to food and regulations and that kind of stuff but I mean I guess if I had to have a view on it: I understand that obviously preserving food but I guess I disagree with the effects on my body, that I assume are occurring…so I am not an obnoxious vegetarian. I don’t bash people that eat meat; I don’t try to talk people out of it at all. If I have people ask me, I’ll tell them but I mean I try to keep it pretty flexible; its easy to eat around stuff…I mean every restaurant has salads luckily and usually does have fish, so its pretty easy. Seph: Uh…well I guess last question on identity and this can be background or economically…how was growing up? What kind of…I guess…you know, rich? Poor? James: well, I guess from what my mom used to hint, we were the middle-middle class; we were at that point in the middle class where I mean obviously I guess that upper-middle class is not even a bad place to be now a days; like upper-middle class you’re doing really well, living comfortably, you know…you can afford to do things you like to do, but I guess in a sense you still have that discipline where you know…you obviously cannot spend frivolously. Then there’s lower-middle class, where it’s like yay! We Page 14 �live in a good neighborhood but we still live paycheck to pay check. Then there’s middle-middle class, where everyone neglects you; you are not comfortable enough to live like the upper-middle class but your not poor enough to get any help like the lower-middle class, and so it was definitely a struggle…I mean on my mom’s part…like it wasn’t like one of those things where I’ve been working in a store since I was eight years old or anything like that. Um…my mom was very big on providing for my sister and myself…I mean I guess I would have to say as far as how I was raised…I don’t know if it was a product of my upbringing but I guess I never really grew up wanting more but I also didn’t ask for stuff all the time…you know what I mean? Seph: yeah James: So…I guess there’s really nothing else that could have been added to my childhood that I thought would have made it so much better. But I guess I wasn’t the kid who was asking for a playstation…playstation 2, at every holiday when one came out…you know what I mean?...so I would say I was happy; like I said there was never a time when I was just wanting anything just because…I guess it was instilled in me to appreciate what you have…so it was easy like as far as eating and stuff; like there was always food on the table…you know…always family around, so it wasn’t a bad cake to be born into. Seph: Okay, were gonna take a slight change in pace…I want to know about how much you’ve traveled…and if traveling has basically affected your identity or just uh…affected your life…? James: well, I guess as far as far as the obvious travels: moving from New York to Buffalo and Buffalo to here; uh they were different. I guess as far as moving here particularly, it added to my identity because it in a sense identified my identity; it really gave it shape because I was able to contrast it with what was around me. In my life I’ve traveled…I guess I’ve traveled a bit. I have family in California, went over there. I have family in Atlanta…around Atlanta, so I’ve been down there. I’ve been to Philadelphia a few times, went to Texas a couple of years ago, just went to Hawaii last year. I mean I guess as far as the United States goes I still have a lot of sight seeing to do…but uh I’m interested in it, I feel when you…its one of those…traveling is one of those interesting things where yeah there’s people everywhere but its kind of different when you see them everywhere. You know what I mean…and its weird to think that were all human beings, were all built the same way but were not the same in any way, shape, or form. When I was 10 years old I went to London, actually I went to England for the first time, I haven’t been back there since but that was the first time out of the country…and obviously been to Canada a few times. And Canada was a good time; in Canada we had some good family friends and met some people up there and uh, London the same thing; actually London was a weird situation because my dad and his uh Page 15 �girlfriend took me and every…I was 10…so as far as eating goes all I ate was pizza and chicken nuggets…you know what I mean…like you’re a picky eater, even though you don’t really know what you like and you think you hate everything. I found uh…there was a pizzeria at the base of our hotel that served…well in England I guess the rest of Europe…what we know as a plain slice, is a margarita of pizza. Has nothing to do with margaritas but…you know…so I was like oh margarita! Cause I look at it…and I look at the description and I'm like this is normal pizza…and I uh ate every night that we were in London, by myself, at this one place because they had pizza. And like my dad and I went the first night, and my dads like “I’m not gonna come to London and eat at the same place every night”, so he sends his 10 year old son into the world by himself to do this. And, I remember…I don’t know if it was my first taste of…what do you call it…I don’t know…maybe socializing with the opposite gender. But I remember I had this one waitress every night, then like the day before I left I was like I’m leaving soon, and decided to start talking and um I guess that was one of the first times I was out of my element, had sort of gotten a little bit comfortable, and decided…what’s the worst that could happen if you just talk to people. And I mean your 10 so its not like I’m trying to sleep with her…you know what I mean…you can just talk to people. Uh…and I guess the next big trip. I used to go to Puerto Rico as well…I forgot to mention that; I used to go to Puerto Rico almost every summer and spend some time with my grandma for about 2 or 3 months every summer. How I don’t know Spanish is embarrassing but it kind of happens…so uh what do you call it…well I guess my next big trip was when I was 14...no I was…yeah I must have been 14; I went to Australia and New Zealand, which was really exciting and also with the rugby thing it was a little bit more prevalent over there so it was exciting to watch that and soccer. And I…uh well I mean Australia was a blast, but one experience that’s always been with me is…I went to stay with the Mayoree people when I was in New Zealand, and we stayed there for 2 nights and it was actually really interesting; we had a big group, I think there was maybe 20 of us or something like that. And we all slept in one room on the floor, I mean it was a big room…but we were just like on the floor, just like a communal hall type of thing and um the Mayoree people that we stayed with were just …it was the strangest thing…I have never had such a familiar feeling with people…like I met them and they kind of felt like family type of thing; like very easy to talk to, very friendly, just like very caring. And in my head I'm just like wow I am meeting you for the first time and we are getting along; like it is going both ways and it was I guess in a weird sociological way I'm just like wow people are pretty awesome you know what I mean…you can go all over the world and people are just people…you know…I don’t know anything about them and they don’t know anything about me, but we can get along and realize that we have things in common; like meanwhile our backgrounds are entirely different and I guess in a sense that was a part of…that may have been one of the things that I started emphasizing who am I, what am I offering the world in a sense, and also I guess as more as a support it kind of makes me think and reaffirm Page 16 �the fact that alright maybe I am doing something right, like I am meeting these people for the first time and their like alright with me type of thing…you know…I wasn’t trying to like kiss ass cause I was 14…you know…but yeah like I would have to say traveling has definitely added a lot to my identity because it reinforced the need for an identity as well as maybe even pushed me a little bit to be more concerned about what my identity was as far as what other people were seeing. Seph: very cool, and then going on the subject of identity…I guess growing up or in adulthood did you ever feel like you were treated differently? James: oh absolutely! I mean, I would have to say the story of my life is: I was never black enough and I was never Hispanic enough…like definitely a huge thing and then obviously I wasn’t white so I couldn’t play with them…but I mean…whoa…uh..but I mean its not like I grew up in Jim Crow south or anything like that. But it was one of those things were I guess when I was really young, you were…I was always the black kid playing with white kids; it wasn’t like a kids playing with kids type thing. But my neighborhood was actually very diverse, which I appreciated; id have to say the 2 most prominent nationalities…not nationalities…I’d say ethnicities were um…Irish and Pilipino actually. Which were obviously different ends of the spectrum, but I feel like if anything that definitely eased me into everything a lot easier. Hanging out with my dad on the weekends, I guess my weekends were a little more ethnic for me, but then my Puerto Rican side of my family has always been very involved. And it’s a very big family as well so; I mean that was always awesome. I would have to say I would have to identify more with my Puerto Rican roots then my black roots but, that’s also because my Puerto Rican roots are a little bit fresher because my mom is from Puerto Rico, so it’s a little bit easier to connect to that. And as far as growing up in high school, yeah, like it was one of those: oh, you’re black but you’re like not that black, like you act white you know that kind of thing, or like oh!, you’re Puerto Rican but you’re kind of black so, eh, you know what I mean. So like basically because I didn’t speak in the same, I guess, tonovenacular as everybody else, so that off the bat was a little bit weird. But, my mom; its almost like her mission in life was to make sure that I spoke properly, and I guess I feel like coming from where she’s coming from type of thing; to have someone speak properly and if anything, kind of like assimilate socially as far as like having tools to succeed, I mean like I would have to say in a messed up way, I think it has given me an advantage because lets say I have the same requirements as someone who is ethnically exactly like me but they talk with a little bit more of a, like you know, they have like a, they act like you know I’ve got a little bit more swagger, I have a little bit more, like you know…attitude in their speech but I can speak the language and speech properly. Eh I’m gonna have that little bit of that like, off the bat, like kind of like a push and personally I guess I really admire language and I think that language is very important and I also feel when you learn enough about language, you…like, I don’t know…language in Page 17 �itself is its own art form. And I feel that you can continuously learn more about a language which is in a sense I feel like my bastardized justification for why I don’t speak any other languages; is because I’m not done learning English is how I guess I kind of face it, you know what I mean so uh…its just one of those weird things where just growing up; I guess I’ve always been different and just because, like I said, I wasn’t black enough and wasn’t Puerto Rican enough, but I wasn’t trying to be anything else either so…for I guess a long part of my identity, I just thought that I was like by myself, you know what I mean and its kind of…but its like I worked with other people but I was never really part or anything else. I mean I guess its one of those: something that’s kind of carried on with me a little bit more, you know, my entire life, but I mean I guess its one of those that used to bother me a lot but now not so much. I guess I just figure there…like I said it is part of my identity; its part of who I am, and I can obviously mix with other people but there are going to be some things that are just for me, which I guess isn’t a bad thing… Seph: Going kind of on that same line, not to kill that subject, but uh…moving to West Michigan, was there a shift? Did you notice maybe a different sort of treatment? James: I noticed, well I would have to say one of the things I noticed right off the bat was that I felt that well generally the population is much whiter over here which…um…I mean, its like I’ve been to white towns before and stuff like that so it wasn’t even a matter of like oh, I don’t feel comfortable here, its just like oh, I happen to notice everyone here is white, that kind of thing. And one thing I noticed when I started coming here though, is I felt that everyone that saw me at a public place like a supermarket or something like that was… (door creaks open) Seph: what’s up? Ha, of course I'm doing an interview. James:…everyone that saw me, I felt was like very nice, so I felt that like especially, with me rolling in: my car has New York plates, I don’t look like I’m from around here or anything like that so I guess in a sense I stuck out, but people were…like overly nice to maybe compensate for it, which I don’t know if they were maybe other motivations for it but it was just like one of those: oh, everyone here is like really nice, I guess, you know its kind of how it worked. And I guess there were just simple traditionalist and ideological differences I noticed when I came to west Michigan, such as I mean, well I guess its like really religious based around here, which is cool, I mean whatever works, and um…everyone gets married when they are like 17 which is kind of different, I mean…kind of weird but um…I mean if anything I guess I was like walking in…it was almost like…okay it sounds dumb: its like whenever you see a sci-fi movie; I felt like I was the guy, who like came from the past or from the future, you know, I’m the guy who’s here so everyone has to explain what’s going on. I’m a straight man so that everyone can Page 18 �explain, oh this is how things work around here and have them explain to me. And it um, baffled my mind; I'm just like what is happening? What is this place? …It was very strange, I mean especially learning different things; one thing that blew my mind was the amount of confederate flags in this union state you’ve got here. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Its one of those hahaha, Michigan…you’re in the union…kind of. In fact, my roommate my first year…he had a big confederate flag over our couch and it said “redneck” on the bottom and I realized this is home but not really. It was just like one of those: this is really happening; it’s a little strange but you know.... alright I guess, and I mean at the very least I…my yearning to be open-minded I guess was very tested here and I mean its like one of those like...obviously I have no negative views of white people in general, but I realized that there are some pretty trashy confederate white people around here, and which is…well that’ll happen. And then on the other side too, which I feel like Grand Rapids is particularly guilty of …I feel like with the black and Hispanic population I mean, I feel like everyone wants to blame the media but I…every time I see a hood part of town in like Grand Rapids, it seems like a scene out of a movie and I’m just thinking: are you like this? Or are you acting like this, because it’s how you’re supposed to act? Cause Grand Rapids you’re not hood! I’m sorry; you know what I mean? Like Grand Rapids does not know struggle the same way that like places like Detroit know struggle, you know what I mean? And it’s one of those; oh we’re from Michigan, Detroit’s hard, so let’s be hard too. No that’s not they way it works; if you’re happy smile, you know what I mean, like if you’re having a good life you don’t have to pretend you’re not, kind of thing. Its one of those things; like I came over here and I feel like everyone kind of has their roles that they feel are…they are dealt in a sense, and I mean I’m kind of learning it, and learning to get along with it and work around it, but I mean its been different, it’s been very strange. I’d have to say; like I’ve been to Australia, New Zeeland, and Michigan is definitely the weirdest place I’ve been to yet, and its baffling, but I truly feel like its um…it’s definitely…what’s emerged at the other end of everything is a little bit more of who I am, and like I said I realized which principles I’m not willing to give up, you know? And it’s been a little bit difficult but um…I mean looking back at it now; it’s just like, I’m glad, you know; I could’ve just changed and been like everyone expected me too, or you know…done what I needed too to fit in. But I don’t fit in, so I pretend that I do. Seph: All right, well you got a couple more minutes? James: yeah. Seph: okay. I guess I’m going to just to civil rights, cause were dealing with that a lot in class right now…so were gonna move into that real quick to finish. But, I guess when it comes to thinking about race or ethnicity, are there any articles, books, films, features, performances…that stand out or maybe influenced you? Page 19 �James: ewh..uh… Seph: well…I mean you mentioned media and how it’s like how were supposed to act in Grand Rapids, but I mean is there like anything that was ever uh… James: ehhh Seph: we can come back to that. James: well I guess…well no. I’ll stick to it, I won’t pass, I’m not a pussy. No I guess…it sounds dumb…but…I guess I’ve avoided letting other ideas or I guess other influences define who I am. Um...growing up I’ve I always been like lone wolf status; always into things that other people weren’t, always just interested in different areas. And I mean; I guess if I had to say…I couldn’t pick a particular art form or piece of work that maybe helped me with my identity, but uh…I guess I would have to say; things that interested me were unlike what everyone else was into, not necessarily weird different, just not…I mean I didn’t meet too many other people for instance when I was younger…I guess its like I just cant close on a genre or a type but I guess the fact that I was always a little bit of a nonconformist and a little bit…uh well walked to the beat of a different drum, that, helped define me. But I could say that there was any piece of work that pushed me to better myself; in an identity point of view, you know. Seph: a couple more, bear with me. James: that fine. Seph: About discrimination…did you ever face any kind of discrimination growing up? Or even more recent? James: Eh, not to my face I guess, I mean I’m sure it was there; it’s always lurking in the shadows. But…uh…one time…my old teammate and I…his name was Wiccub (not sure if that is really what he says..?); I don’t know if you can use that so we’ll call him Joe, so me and Joe were in the car going from New York City back to Buffalo and we got pulled over by a cop and it was…we had been speeding…but it was one of those things where it was early in the morning, and I didn’t realize I was speeding and I was kinda just like keeping up with traffic and it was just one of those; ohhh in my head and he was like oh you were speeding so I’m thinking oh wow that sucks but what can you do…I got caught speeding; you know what I mean; like I wasn’t trying to be…you know shifty about it at all and um…so the cop checks my i.d. but then checks Wiccub’s i.d. and its just you know…which is weird cause… Seph: cause he’s a passenger… Page 20 �James: yeah as a passenger; you know checks his i.d. as well. So he runs us through the system. He comes back and then he uh…he says…well he basically asked me to get out of the car and I’m like okay fine, its not a big deal; all my papers and stuff were up to date and he just goes…uh…can you come to the back of the car; so I’m in the back of my car, I mean like behind the car…um which I thought was alright because of like the dash-cam thing so I’m not going to do anything; and the video will show that I’m not going to do anything and um…he’s like “I couldn’t help but notice that when you rolled down the window I was hit by the overwhelming odor of marijuana” and so…and I didn’t smoke, like I didn’t and so I was just like ohhh that’s weird cause I don’t smoke…and I guess the cop was like trying to…I assume the cop was trying to trick me into giving him permission to search my car cause he says “oh so if I were to look through your car I wouldn’t find anything” and I go “officer there is nothing in my car” and he’s like “but if I were to look through it, I wouldn’t find anything?” and I go “sir there is nothing illegal in my car” and so he’s like ohhh okay. It’s just like one of those why are you asking that over and over. I feel like he probably just wanted me to be like “fine go look through my car”, you know what I mean, but I know my rights a little bit better than that and um we weren’t giving him any time of reasonable cause or anything so…uh…yeah he gave us like a really hard time and um…were sitting in there car just like; what is going on? As cars are going like 90 past us; we’re just like, you know what I mean; like what is happening right now?! So we’re just sitting there and I’m like wow I’m actually kinda pissed off about this; cause it’s one of those; I never actually play the race card, cause I think it’s dumb, but I was like actually just seemed really fucked up, you know. And so I would have to say if there was one situation; that was…that was the one what was pretty…I guess black and white as far as…you know whether or not there was any discrimination…like I said I guess if anything its been more interracial versus interracial; as far as oh not black enough or not Hispanic enough, you know what I mean; you’re like ohh…you’re not really down with us; so in a sense I’ve been discriminated on all fronts, which is exciting, not many people can say that; usually you have one race to run back to, I had none, so… Seph: any discrimination for being a cheerleader? James: usually well um…I was a bouncer at Raggs to Riches, in down town Grand Rapids and I actually found out when they saw my resume, they saw cheerleader, and they initially were just like, NO! hahaha until one guy goes wait a minute these guys are usually kinda big; they’re usually kinda strong cause they have to like toss these girls; so then they’re like alright we’ll go check him out and I walk in and they’re like “big guyyy!” and then they’re like that’s who we’re hiring and I’m like and I have martial arts experience and they’re like alright that’s cool…um but that’s really the only instance that I know of particularly. But people usually look at me and are like ohh you look athletic, its not like ra-ra-shish-kebah like everyone assumes I do… Page 21 �Seph: okay, how about family? Did your family ever experience discrimination? Mom or dad? James: oh yeah. Um my mom when she first moved here she didn’t speak any English; so I mean like kids find any reason to make fun of other kids…so she was pretty much…she was screwed over when she showed up, she was made fun of; she spoke Spanish, broken English, you know, she like really didn’t know anything but um…however I guess on the inverse of everything there was a girl in her class that was like “Carmen, I’ll teach you how to…like after school let’s hang out for like an hour or whatever and she was like teaching her how to speak and stuff like that…so um yeah…my mom had good and bad experiences as far as like getting to school without any type of you know I guess formal instruction for speaking but I mean just imagine going anywhere and living there you know…and not knowing the language…like that’s one of those things were you can sort of think about it…but if you really think about it in an instance you think like oh that would be annoying but then you got to think about it as like a lifestyle; that’s entirely different, like its…baffling so…I’m sure that’d suck but you can’t really explain it any other way. Seph: All right, and final question: what comes to mind when you think of civil rights? And do you have any civil rights heroes? Local or national? James: well, I mean I would have to say when it comes to civil rights; civil rights are right up there with common sense; like I guess in a sense my problem with civil rights is I feel like when you start making a legislation that is assigned to a certain type of population while it does grant them certain powers it also alienates them because when you write and law and it says like “all men are created equal” type of thing just like very simple like tenants of American society; that should mean all men, are all mankind, you know what I mean, like some type of language use for everyone, but when you start specifying: alright this is for African Americans or this is for you know homosexuals and marriage now, its one of those: well yay! to do the right what everyone else could but you’re also writing a law that’s naming them as a type of person which I feel like that’s kind of…it’s one of those two steps forward, and one step back kind of thing, you know what I mean so uh…as far as civil rights I guess legislation wise, I would hope it was unnecessary but since it is necessary, I’m all for it but I don’t understand…I guess I don’t understand putting any type of human being down; like that’s just a concept that doesn’t register to me at all. As far as civil rights heroes...so stereotypical, I guess I don’t have to pick a celebrity, but whatever, one activist that stands out to me is Malcolm X. Solely on the fact that a lot of people are into Malcolm X because of how powerful of a speaker he was, how adamant he was with his beliefs; which obviously are very good points but he was able to, I don’t know how familiar you are with Malcolm X but his…the first, I would say…the fist major portion of his career he was very militant, very aggressive, and thought; he truly thought that blacks and whites could no co-exist; he felt there should be a black America and a white Page 22 �America, and you know kind of figure out the paperwork later, you know, and he wouldn’t deal with white people, he wouldn’t even mix with the population and he went on the Hajj to Mecca and while he was there was with Muslims from all over the world and he realized there were some darker than me, some my completion, and some white with blonde hair blue eyes and he’s like you know white people were Muslims; and he’s like their faith was at his level, you know what I mean; like at his level or more, so it wasn’t just like oh they’re tourists, they’re not just like checking it out, they are thoroughly invested in a belief system that he is thoroughly invested in. and I guess I admire him because he came out and was basically kind of like “I was wrong”, you know what I mean…and changed his views on everything and went about making those views more public, as far as what should be done. So I guess I admire him for being such a prominent figure in pretty much saying I was incorrect, you know, which no one does that; no one ever says that they’re wrong. So I guess as far as what’s been dug up and exposed about him: he was always what he said he was…you know what I mean…it’s not here’s the Malcolm X we thought we knew, here’s random exposé, you know that kind of thing. No, like he changed who he was but he stayed who whomever he said he was, that’s who he was at the time; you know and especially a man of his stature and position that’s very difficult to do; to say that, I mean essentially he lost his life as kind of a result of it. So, I guess if I had to pick one I would say him, and then obviously I guess another example would be Gandhi, who I guess would be a very general one. He’s another one who is a very generic answer and I mean obviously Martin Luther King was a big fan of him as well, but…he…I mean I guess in a similar light to Malcolm X, he was another one where; he was born and raised in India, educated in England, its when he moved to South Africa that he became invested in civil rights. He didn’t realize there was a difference in a sense, of the way people were treated because in India; Britain may have pulled the biggest, fastest trick on every body by convincing Indians that they had equal stake in their own country. And so Brittan realized there are so many Indians here, we have to get them on our side and working for us, versus a partite where it was very segregated and very like militarized on how they separate everything; they had to kind of work a little bit of a different system, and his experience was he went to South Africa because he was of Indian decent; I mean he was pure blooded Indian, and he was mistreated because he was brown, he was not a white person. So you have whites and non-whites essentially was how South Africa worked during the partite and he basically, once presented with the situation in seeing it; things literally black and white changed his views on everything and made it very, very vocal about it. It was almost like an over night change; where he goes “people should not be getting treated this way” and I mean, it’s one of those, he wasn’t as vocal about civil rights prior to this situation but once it happened that’s when he became I little bit more…he became louder and publically changed his views and really…you know…started his quest in and again eventually lost his life again because of it. Page 23 �Seph: All right sweet. Thank you, that is all the questions I have. And James, thanks for doing this and letting me get to know you better. James: No problem. END OF INTERVIEW Page 24 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78289888f09488506831e83e45151990.mp3 8a63606f7a06519687c6130861b35702 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Morton_James Title A name given to the resource James Morton audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Morton, James Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Morkes, Seph Description An account of the resource James Morton talks about his family" Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Discrimination against Hispanic Americans Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives