424 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5f4f3709edbac807c9294c862ea6fb8.m4v 824b0779830da12e22bad39b3da6d887 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/73edb6b94b7cb12aed0dfb6caf66e05f.pdf aa1502059f8fea763b5250d015cce51a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Billy Hayes Vietnam War; Cold War (Post-Vietnam) 18 minutes 46 seconds *Note: Times are referring to the time code at the tape’s start (01:40:19) Deployment to Vietnam -Assigned to the 27th Surgical Hospital while at Fort Lewis, Washington -Originally planned on deploying to Vietnam in November 1967 -Got moved to spring 1968 -Allowed him to see the birth of his daughter -Enough time to move his wife and daughter to southern California -Flew to southern California and boarded the USNS Geiger -Set sail for Vietnam on March 5, 1968 -Arrived in Vietnam on March 26, 1968 -Chance to get acquainted with the men in the 27th Surgical Hospital -Hadn’t gotten that chance while at Fort Lewis -Sailed over with a Navy chaplain and three other Army chaplains (01:43:14) Arrival in Vietnam -First offloaded an artillery battalion at Nha Trang before he disembarked at Da Nang -Learned about the Tet Offensive that had happened in late-January 1968 -Forces at Da Nang were still recovering from the attack (01:44:03) Stationed at Chu Lai -Sailed down the coast in a Landing Ship, Tank, to Chu Lai -The 27th occupied the abandoned Marine hospital while their hospital was built -Six weeks later moved into their new hospital near Highway 1 -He stayed at Chu Lai until late-November 1968 (01:45:12) Stationed at Phu Bai -Swapped units with plans to be stationed at the base on the old Michelin rubber plantation -Swapped units again and was assigned to the hospital at Phu Bai (01:46:26) Casualties -Saw a lot of casualties serving as a hospital chaplain -Focused on doing his tasks and trying to ignore the blood and gore -Stayed with men while they were in the operating room -Answered their questions, eased their anxieties, and prayed with them -Remembers one African-American Marine who had lost his leg above the knee -Stayed with him, on and off, for several days -The man’s stoicism and faith helped ease Billy’s anxieties about seeing wounded men (01:48:44) Easter Service 1968 -Held an Easter sunrise service in Chu Lai �-The Americal Division was holding their own Easter sunrise service nearby -As he finished his service, a soldier came up to him and said a chaplain had been wounded -Billy went to see the wounded chaplain in the operating room -The man had given the prayer invocation and sat down when a bullet hit his arm -A bullet had fallen out of the sky and hit with just enough force to break skin -Nothing too serious, but serious enough to warrant a Purple Heart (01:51:49) Stationed at Fort Gordon -After his tour in Vietnam, he was stationed at Fort Gordon, Georgia -Served as the basic training chaplain and worked with soldiers bound for Vietnam -Transferred to the garrison side of the base after the basic training program ended -Worked with the post chaplain and as the religious education chaplain -Worked with a rabbi, Catholics and their programs, and the Sunday school -Spent about 2 ½ years at Fort Gordon (01:53:35) Chaplain Career – Stateside -Accepted to the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas -Studied there for a year and got his master’s degree in religious education -Went to Fort Lewis, Washington -Managed their religious education program for three years -By this time the Vietnam War had ended -Served there for 3 ½ years -Attended the Chaplain Advanced Career Course at Fort Wadsworth, New York, for a year (01:54:54) Service in West Germany -Sent to West Germany -Served with the 1st Brigade of the 1st Armored Division for a year -Became the brigade chaplain and served at Ray Barracks, Friedberg, Germany for two years (01:55:55) End of Service -Returned to the United States and went to the Army Chaplain’s School to be in the faculty -Worked in various capacities at the school for three years -Focus on combat and logistical exercises -Final assignment was at Fort Ord, California -Nearing his 20-year mark, and as a reservist he would’ve had to retire -Wife convinced him to get out of the Army -Better chance of getting a job as a Baptist minister at 45 years old -Wonderful way to end his career (01:57:32) Reflections on Service -Exposed him to other Christian denominations and made him more openminded -Realized other Christians were just as faithful and convinced of their beliefs -Privilege to administer and help the wounded soldiers in physical and emotional pain -Found he had more in common with other sects than he thought he did � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HayesB2059V Title A name given to the resource Hayes, Billy M (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-28 Description An account of the resource Billy Hayes deployed to Vietnam with the 27th Surgical Hospital on March 5, 1968, and departed by ship out of San Diego. He arrived at Da Nang on March 26, 1968, then sailed down the coast to Chu Lai. He served at the hospital there until late-November 1968 and was reassigned to Phu Bai. Upon completion of his tour in Vietnam he returned to the United States and was stationed at Fort Gordon, Georgia, for 2 1/2 years. Over the course of his career he studied at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary worked at Fort Lewis, Washington, in the religious education program attended the Chaplain Advanced Career Course at Fort Wadsworth, New York served in West Germany with the 1st Brigade of the 1st Armored Division. He returned to the United States and served at the Army Chaplain's School as part of the faculty, and completed his 20-year career at Fort Ord, California. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hayes, Billy M. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keizer, Herman Jr. (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/64cb0b6055503f44c5449522ebc5e985.mp4 30097b5cb4425469f267212c5cb18bb6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9aa8ab1611c614b0ca4221e4668dcd56.pdf f4d9d8e355e3b89f3143b2178c76e7e5 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW ROBERT HAYHURST Born: Resides: Interviewed by: Maxine Sarafino, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 18, 2014 Interviewer: My name is Robert Edward Hayhurst. Interviewer: My name is Maxine Serafino and I’ll be interviewing Robert Hayhurst today for Lake Michigan College. We’re doing this for the Library of Congress and the Lest We Forget group. Interviewer: Robert, could you tell me about your family, where you grew up, and siblings? I was born in Waukesha, Wisconsin on February 2, 1943. I’m the oldest of four children; I have a brother Richard, a sister Carol and a sister Janet. Most of our childhood was spent in northwestern Wisconsin, in New Richmond, Wisconsin and I graduated from high school there. After graduation from high school I attended the University of Wisconsin Stout in Menominee, Wisconsin 1:03 Interviewer: Did you graduated from there? Yes Interviewer: What degree? A degree in industrial technology, the Vietnam War was going on and the draft was on everyone’s minds, and I decided to enlist in the army and pursue activities as a special agent in the military intelligence. 1 �Interviewer: Why the army? I guess—my father was a first sergeant in WWII. I had an uncle that was killed in Italy in WWII, but mainly, I guess, because of the military intelligence that I wanted to get into. That field as opposed to--most of my friends and colleagues, at the time, were being drafted and sent right to the infantry. 2:01 Interviewer: What years did you serve? 1966 – 1969, and after basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, I was sent to Fort Holabird, Maryland—Baltimore, Maryland and the intelligence training right there at Fort Holabird. Interviewer: How long did that take? I was about a five month course, almost twenty-four hours a day, in all aspects of intelligence from information gathering, to counter intelligence, to interrogations, to just a lot of different areas of intelligence. From there, the graduating class, which was, and consisted of a hundred and nine, a third was army. 3:04 Another third were marines, and then there was a smattering of civilian intelligence from the National Security Agency, the State Department, some naval intelligence personnel, because this was thee military intelligence training school that the government had. Interviewer: Did you get any survival type training? Yes, a little bit, but not much. Intelligence, at that time, we’re talking forty-two years ago, or forty-three years ago, you’re put into lots of different types of units, so they had to train you for different things. Some were combat units, doing intelligence work for a certain unit. 4:03 I guess I was very fortunate, in my three year career in the army. Following graduation from the intelligence school, I was sent to Germany. The cold war 2 �was still going on; I spent a year in Stuttgart, Germany at the 66th Military Intelligence Group Headquarters outside of Stuttgart. There the intelligence in Germany at the time, Europe, all of Europe, was counteracting intelligence efforts from the Russians and from the East Germans. There was, at that time, offensive intelligence and counter intelligence, and then in counter intelligence there was offensive counter intelligence and defensive counter intelligences. 5:00 How you’re dealing with the enemy and how you are throwing off their plans, and then how you’re protecting you own personnel, or your own units by providing good background investigations for security clearances and that sort of thing. That was one type that was going on in Germany. At the end of 1967, I volunteered, because the war was going on and I wanted a little different kind of action, I volunteered for a transfer to Vietnam. I was sent to Vietnam and there I was, after an initiation period, or a period of, I guess, being familiar with the country and what was happening in Vietnam, I was sent up to Hue, the city of Hue, to be a member of a five man team, military intelligence team, which was the 1st Battalion of the 525th MI Group. 6:05 Hue is an old imperial city about sixty Kilometers south of the demilitarized zone. The five man unit, we lived in a house, an old French provincial house, upstairs were our bedrooms and downstairs were our offices. We were probably three, or four, blocks from the local MACV compound, a military compound, we were given civilian identification, United States civilian identification, not part of the military, because we were doing a lot of other types of intelligence work over there. Primarily gathering intelligence about the enemy, about the Vietcong and about the North Vietnamese troops that we infiltrating. 7:00 But, at the same time we’re doing intelligence work, counter intelligence work for our military. All ranks, high officers, full colonels and on down, anyone needing security 3 �clearance has to get these background investigations and our unit would provide that also. So, the way the military is, in the rank and file, when we were sent to an artillery unit, or infantry unit, or whatever, and you had to interview, or investigate a member of the unit to update their clearance, sometimes we had to wear different uniforms. Sometimes we had to wear a captain's uniform, or a major's uniform, lieutenant's uniform, sometimes just a sergeant's uniform. 8:03 Interviewer: So you fit in more? So the people we are talking with are more comfortable. There were a number of high ranking army officers that would not want to talk to a sergeant or a lowly lieutenant, so then we had to put a different uniform on, a different ID, and they felt comfortable then, they wouldn’t want to talk to someone low anyway. Interviewer: What did you think of Vietnam when you got there? You’d been in Germany. This was a whole different experience, intelligence wise a whole different experience, but that part of Vietnam was culturally very interesting. The city of Hue was the—it meant a great deal to the South Vietnamese and to the North Vietnamese. 9:00 The University of Hue was there, leaders from both the north and the south were graduates of the University of Hue. It would be like years ago in our Civil War where members of the south and members of the north both graduated from West Point together, and that’s what the University of Hue had in common with those folks, and the old imperial city with the Citadel and the seat of power for the rulers of the time. It was a very interesting city, very compacted, maybe a hundred and fifty thousand people living in an area much 4 �smaller than—much, much smaller than Benton Harbor, or St. Joseph, but anyway, it was very interesting, very interesting. Interviewer: Is that what you did most of your time there? 10:00 Yes, until the Tet Offensive broke out, the 1968 Tet Offensive. Part of my function before the Tet Offensive was work with Australian troops, Korean troops, and of course, our own units and South Vietnamese units in the area. We were the first unit that would do interrogation of captured NVA soldiers, or NVA soldiers that defected. With the help of interpreters we would interrogate them for information. Interviewer: Were they brought to you where you were at? How did that work? We were brought to them, they were being held in confinement and we were brought to them to get as much information as we could about why they were there and what was happening on their side, and then turn that information over to authorities. 11:01 The units that needed that information. It was a real different mixed experience in the intelligence services in Vietnam, much different than Germany, much different, because you’re fighting a different—there’s a different purpose, there’s a different enemy, there’s a different kind of action, you know. Also, we were involved in—because of the civilian identification that we had, we were being posed as American advisors to the South Vietnamese government, helping them build bridges and roads, improving their crops and better rice and all those different things, that was our cover, but we were there for intelligence purposes. I’m not giving away any secrets, this was a—I’m sure it has changed greatly since then. 12:00 The effort of the intelligence service, you know, very interesting. 5 �Interviewer: Anything else happen while you were there? How did it go? You had your job to do. I had a chance to visit a lot of different units in that I Corps of South Vietnam, up to Khe Sanh, up to Quang Tri, those are quite remote units , or areas, and there were some battles and things that took place while I was visiting for a couple of days doing jobs in Khe Sanh. They were invaded. Interesting, you were flown in up there and flown back in various size planes, not helicopters, fixed wing aircraft. A lot of our other travels were through—Air America would take us around in small planes. 13:01 Interviewer: What was Air America? It was a government funded, sponsored, type of civilian air unit. Small planes, two and four passenger planes that could take off and land very quickly, very powerful, could take off on a short runway not much longer than this room, and just get airborne and travel, you know, as opposed to helicopters. They must have contracted, contracted with our government to do this sort of thing, shuttle individuals around. At the end of January 1968, we were all caught by surprise when the 1968 Tet Offensive hit. Would you like to hear a little bit about that from my perspective? 14:03 It all started the evening of, as I remember, January 30th, or early in the morning of the 31st. Leading up to that, most every night--our house is in the city, on the western bank of the river, the new part of the city, and a half mile, or maybe a quarter mile from the actual outskirts of Hue, we’d hear machine gun fire and mortar fire almost every night for a while. It was NVA units interacting without either our military or the South Vietnamese military, but it’s very commonplace, except that particular night it started and didn’t let up. 15:01 It kept on all night long and more and more guns and all of a sudden some planes were activated. 6 �Normally, planes weren’t activated, but the planes were activated, South Vietnamese aircraft and American aircraft trying to repel the enemy. When daybreak hit early in the morning of January 31st, our bedrooms were on the second floor and we look outside and we see columns of troops, North Vietnamese army troops, walking up the street, just like they own the street. I thought, ―Oh man, we’re behind enemy lines already‖, you know, and the platoon took a position at the corner up the block at an intersection. You could tell they were not Vietcong, they were units of the NVA and how they were dressed. 16:06 They had branches of--tree branches and stuff stuck in their helmets and backpacks. We were five men in this unit, and we just waited for them to contact, or interact, with us and right next door there was a naval intelligence unit with four men there, so we joined forces in their house. There were nine of us and when the North Vietnamese troops started going house to house getting everybody out, whether you’re South Vietnamese or Americans like we were, we resisted and we pooled our weapons together. We didn’t have that many weapons, a few boxes of hand grenades and fourteen rifles, 45 caliber pistols, and three, or four, 45 caliber sub machine guns. 17:09 We also had some phosphorus grenades. We were in a pretty big house, a concrete type of house now, and it had a third floor and we fought from the third floor. We destroyed our intelligence files by dropping phosphorus grenades into our file cabinets and melting those. Some of the fellows decided to keep their civilian ID’s. I did and another fellow said, ―No, we’ll put our military ID’s on‖, so we put our dog tags on and destroyed the fake cover ID’s and kept our military ID’s. 18:04 I figured that if we were going to be killed, or captured, I’d just go out as United States Army. We fought them off that day, different surges they made and two of the fellows were killed. All night long, of just 7 �sporadic firing all night long of January 31st, and then the 1st of February, in the morning, late morning, we ran out of ammunition and we had to surrender. We had killed a number of their men and they killed two of ours. We had a number of injured, three injured. 19:03 It’s a scary feeling when--we’re on the third floor, going downstairs not knowing what’s ahead of you, you know, if you’re going to be shot on the spot, or what. All they knew is we were Americans, they didn’t know what our roles were; I don’t think they knew what our roles were, but we’re the enemy, we’re Americans. They took us down the street, three or four blocks behind the houses, because they had to protect us, because the South Vietnamese and the American forces were fighting to get that part of the city back, so they had to protect us and they put us in a house. A house they occupied, a pretty good size house, and the house was occupied by Phillip Manhart. 20:00 He was a federal service officer for the state department and was a very—the highest ranking state department official in that part of Vietnam. He had been captured some time before; anyway, we spent that day in that house. That night six of us in a shower, a six by six shower tied up with communication wire holding our elbows back, you know, tied at the elbows. They took our boots away from us and that was it. The next day, on the 2nd of February, the night of the 2nd, they took us out of town under the cover of darkness. 21:00 But, all the time we were in that house there are dive bombers from our Air Force and marines and the South Vietnamese Air Force, fighting in that part of the city, so they had to protect us from being shot by our own people, you know. They marched us out of town, the evening of the 2nd, my birthday, my twenty fifth birthday, and under dark, obviously. We were barefoot, arms tied behind our backs, and we marched out, I’m guessing it was to the west. I thought to the west and north of Hue, 8 �through some fields, roads, we had to cross a river, they put us in boats and took us across the river. 22:00 Bombing and shelling is going on all the time and they knew where to take us so we wouldn’t get shelled, or bombed, by our own forces that night. We went through some villages and we spent the next day in a little village, and we’d sleep in the day and march at night until they got us into the foothills west of Hue. A few more days march and we made it to a camp in the lower part of the mountains that was a staging area for the North Vietnam army coming into South Vietnam, and sort of a hospital unit for their wounded, you know. By that time they had gathered twenty-six of us two civilians, two ladies, one was a doctor, and one was a school teacher from Holland, Michigan. They had been over there five, or six, years in their civilian work, being a medical doctor, or a teacher in a South Vietnamese school, but they’re foreigners and they got picked up. 23:03 There was a French Canadian that did not speak English, he was from Montreal, and there were a number of civilian contractors from the Pacific Architects and Engineers that were captured. They were builders and different things and they were captured, and then there were Marines and Army personnel that made up the twenty-six of us all totaled. Some were injured, four, or five, were injured pretty badly. After two weeks in this camp, with interrogations every day, they finally found an English speaking person to come down from Hanoi that could speak English and talk to us. We could communicate with our guards by the limited knowledge of the language of Vietnamese that we knew, but for the most part when we really wanted to communicate with our guards that were holding us, they spoke French. 24:01 Some of our personnel had French in high school, French language training, so we spoke French until this English speaking person came. Then the interrogations got a little stiffer, and it 9 �was something, because of my training, we just knew that this is part of the game, you know. We were interrogating there men, so it was something we expected. After two weeks at that camp they gave us our boots back, and the twenty-one healthiest ones, they put us on a march heading straight west to Laos. They told us that this march was going to take ten to twelve days and we got a gunny sack with twenty pounds of rice to carry on our back and we set out. 25:01 Now we’re in the jungle and in this jungle we’re traveling at night and it was up hills, craters and river and everything else we’re crossing heading towards Laos. We’re going to the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos and then they were going to take us north and then into North Vietnam--North Vietnam to continue on the Ho Che Minh Trail and then eventually to Hanoi. Well, after four days of that march another fellow and me, Edward Dearing, who’s a member of our office, of our unit, we decided to make a run for it and escape. We talked to all of the other twenty-one to see if they wanted to come with us. Civilians, no, some were injured; some didn’t know how to swim, some were afraid and said, ―Well, we’ll take our chances, and they may release us in a couple months‖. 26:04 They said, ―The war’s going a certain direction and let’s not endanger ourselves, let’s just see what happens. We’ll be captives and we’ll be released in a few months‖. That’s what they kept telling us, ―You’ll be released, you’ll be released‖, but I was worried, because of my intelligence training and my job, and what we knew about the other units in the whole area that it wouldn’t be a good experience to be seriously interrogated. So, we got the blessing of our appointed commanders, ―Yes, go ahead, it’s your duty to escape‖. We took off right after breakfast, if you call it breakfast, the morning of the 23rd of February. 27:00 The daily routine on the march is such that we’re on these trails going through the jungle, the mountainous jungle, we’re in 10 �the mountains now, and the trails are not any more than, maybe, six feet wide and it’s a thick jungle wall on both sides. In this march, two, or three, times a day they would have us get off the trail. Get off the trail and sit in the bushes and just wait, because the North Vietnamese units are going the other direction and this is one of their highways we’re on, and the North Vietnamese troops are going the other direction. They’re looking at us and we’re looking at them. They’re carrying their weapons and they’ve got, in some cases, women and children carrying rockets for them, and mortars. We get off the trail and let them pass and we keep going the other direction, you know. 28:00 They’ve been doing this for years and they know how to work, so they—early in the morning they’ll start a campfire covered by a hutch that they make of branches and leaves, and everything else, to hide the smoke, and they’ll cook enough rice for that meal and to make rice balls the size of a big snowball. That’s your breakfast in the morning, a bowl of rice with a little rock salt, and you pack another ball in leaves and carry that with you and stop halfway through the day and that’s your lunch too. At nighttime, when it gets dark, you stop walking and they build another fire and cook rice for the night time, and that’s what the twenty pounds of rice that everybody had to carry was for. There had to be enough rice for all of us to get to the next camp, which was I don’t know how many miles away in North Vietnam. 29:00 We did not wait for that, after the 23rd of February, after that first meal, we’re down by a creek washing our utensils and the guards, they’re washing their utensils, and we’ve been captured now for over three weeks and we’re way inside enemy territory, and I think they knew that if we tried to escape someone will pick us up, someone will recapture us, shoot us, whatever, you know. They didn’t really have to worry about us like they did early on. There were a number of us washing our utensils by 11 �the creek and the guard turned the other way and went back around the bushes to his campsite, or packing things up to move on that morning. We took off in the other direction down the trail and got to this river we had crossed the day before. 30:01 We jumped in the river, swam across, got on the bank on the other side, and we just didn’t move for about two hours, it seemed like quite a long time, to see if anyone was following us. No one followed us, so then we crept back down to the river. This is a river that’s fifty, maybe a hundred feet across, a fast moving river out of the mountains, cold, but flowed very fast, so we got in the river and floated on the river out of the mountains. We knew that pilots, back then, that were shot down in Vietnam were told to get to the seacoast and you’ll be picked up at the seacoast. Planes are up and down the seacoast and they’ll find survivors that way, so we figured, ―Well, our best chance is to get to the seacoast‖. Vietnam, being a narrow country, parallel, right along the ocean there, and all rivers flow to the sea, so well just ride this river to the sea, you know, that was our idea. 31:02 We floated out of the mountains, stopped about every hour, or hour and a half, just to warm up a little bit and pick leaches off of us, rest a little bit, and then get back in and keep floating down. Towards the end of that day, almost dark, we heard some noise ahead of us and it was a North Vietnamese Army unit back off that river, oh, maybe fifty yards, or so. They were near the river, but not on the river, but we could hear them and we peeked up so we could see them, so we stayed in the water and floated real slowly by the back where they couldn’t see us. We were on their side, because if we were on the other side they could see us. 32:00 So, we went past them and kept on going and the river started getting slower and slower and wider and wider, and we spotted a road on the other side of the river with a lot of American boot prints all 12 �over it, fresh boot prints. We swam across the river and looked it over and said, ―We’ve kind of had it with the river‖. We were really cold and this is February and cold temperatures and everything, of course, and we decided to walk that road and see where that took us. I’m not sure, a couple of miles maybe and we got to a Marine outpost, an artillery outpost. We didn’t know it was Marines, we just could hear, we could hear Americans talking in the dark, and the dusk, we didn’t know who they were, but they were Americans, so we thought, ―Well let’s just walk into this unit and see what it is‖. 33:02 It was a Marine military artillery unit and we were lucky again, because we—one fellow stopped us and said, ―What are you doing here? You just walked right through a mine field to get to us. They just had a big killing zone‖, and we said, ―We were just following the boot prints‖, and he said, ―We put those there for a purpose‖. We missed all these mines. These posts, out in the countryside where these units were, they had their rows of tents and their different buildings, there communications and their soldiers units and whatever. 34:01 But, then they had a fence with machine gun units all around and then they had their artillery guns pointed in various directions and then they had this big, almost a hundred yards of killing zone, all cleared, so that anybody coming, they could certainly see them and they were hidden, anybody had to come across that open field to— and that was called a killing zone. That’s what—we walked right through it on this road. The other fellow and myself were both the same, six foot three, so we didn’t not look like an indigenous Vietnamese person. We stood as tall as we could, so they could see who we were, and we had beards. They let us come right in and we made it. 35:00 We figured-we talked with the commanding officer, a young Captain, we looked at aerial photos of the whole area and he kind of new the river we were on and he had aerial 13 �photos at his disposal. We were there a couple three days, because they were so far out in the area that they did not—they had not had a meal in a week and they were down to two C rations a day, they were getting low on ammunition, and it was so far out that the, in that time in February, that the air cover, I mean the cloud cover, was so low that their supplies, they wouldn’t fly them in to them, because it was so dangerous, they had to fly so low. So, we had to wait three days before someone came to pick us up and fly us out of there. 36:00 We got to know those fellows pretty well and he figured we were very close, if not in Laos, very close to Laos when we escaped. We had to make our way across the northern part of South Vietnam and I’m guessing it was thirty-five to forty miles that we traveled, you know, before we found this unit. Interviewer: How did they treat you when you were on your march? Oh, there were only four armed guards and the English speaking leader—good, they didn’t beat us, or anything else. They were—they helped us get across various rivers, they knew, obviously, where they were going and how long it would take us. 37:04 The one river we escaped in, we had to cross that river, we crossed that river the day before we escaped. They kept warning us about that river, but they said, ―Don’t worry, we’ll help you get across, we’ll carry the rice for you across the river‖, and it was deep, wide and no bridges, except they had a bridge. Their bridge was a steel cable about three, or four feet below the water, tight, all the way across the water, under the water. Part of it was a log and part of it was some cable and then there was a cable about a foot above the water that you couldn’t see from the air. You hung onto that cable, the water is up to about your waist and you just went along on that bridge underneath the water and that’s how they went across, that’s how the troops went back and forth, so a little bit of 14 �engineering out there to keep it camouflaged. 38:00 They were helpful and did their job. You know, I thank my lucky stars that we were captured by the North Vietnamese as opposed to the Vietcong that was in the area, because they did not take prisoners. These we were captured by professional soldiers, young, they were younger, some were, I’m guessing, were seventeen, eighteen, twenty years old, but they were very organized and very professional in their job, you know. Interviewer: What were your accommodations like when you were with them, traveling? You sleep out I the open, raining, cold, on the ground. 39:00 And three of us slept together, front to back, front to back on the ground and about every hour we would rotate and put another person in the middle and we would take turns on the outside and keep doing that, because it was so cold at night. Thirty-five to forty degrees was the average night time temperature up in the mountains and raining lots of times, so you’re just shivering and shivering and wet. The guards had little tents, hammocks that they would put between the trees, but we’re on the ground, we’d just lie on the ground. In that three plus week period, I went from two hundred and fifteen pounds to a hundred and fifty five pounds when I checked into the first hospital they took us to. 40:02 I had a wound on my foot, infection, but you were burning so many calories and that’s where—the rice didn’t help you and just keeping warm you’re burning calories, so that’s where the weight loss came. The movement and then you’re just cold and shivering, so your body is trying to generate heat. That’s what I thought was why we were losing weight so fast, and you didn’t drink water, you didn’t dare drink their water. In the evening they would finish cooking the rice, we all shared the big pot, took turns, all of us, guards, captives, all 15 �captives shared and when the rice was done they’d fill it up with water and throw in a few handfuls of tea leaves and boil it, and then we all drank that tea, you know, because we figured it was going to be safe then. 41:00 the guards said, ―Don’t drink the water, wait until we cook this rice and make the tea, then drink the tea‖, so that’s the only water we had. Interviewer: Did you have dysentery or anything like that? No, I don’t know what you call it, I think it was very common, at least I did and a few others, and I did not have a bowel movement for sixteen days. I’m sure part of it’s the emotion and part of it’s the—I’m guessing your body might have shut down a little bit, or whatever, but didn’t ever have the urge to go. You’re eating this rice and that’s the only medical problem, that and the infection. 42:02 Interviewer: How did you get the infection in your foot? By walking on the rocks and different things, back when we first left town. Interviewer: Before they gave your boots back? Yes, before they gave our boots back for that long march. They marched us for three, or four, days barefoot, because they didn’t want you to escape, you know. Interviewer: where did you go from there, after you got picked up from the Marines? Yes, they kept on calling the Marines to come and get us, because that was a marine unit and they wouldn’t come to get us, so this young captain said, ―Well, to heck with that noise‖, and they called a unit of the 101st Airborne, army, and these guys said, ―We’ll be right over‖, so they came right over, picked the two of us up, brought their mail for them, brought big bags of mail that the unit hadn’t had for a week, or so, or a couple of weeks, 16 �and they brought some rations for them, just as if they were a marine unit. 43:02 there was a lady, a Vietnamese lady that was in the camp, I’m not sure what her job was, but she got a ride with us when we left and they took us to Phu Bai, a military unit that was close, a compound that was close. In the 101st Airborne group, was a helicopter, it was a gunship, had room enough for us, the three of us, in the middle of it, the doors were open with a door gunner and the pilot and co-pilot up front. They picked us up and I thought they were going to fly us straight to Phu Bai about ten miles away. I’m just guessing that’s where, but no, these fellows were flying just above the trees and zigzagging back and forth, back and forth, so I said, ―What are you guys doing? Why aren’t we going straight?‖ Well, they were just looking for some action and I thought, ―That’s pretty good‖, the Marines didn’t want to come in there, but This army group thought they would just have a little fun that day. 44:04 We didn’t see anything, but we got there and got put into a hospital. Members of our unit, we were all part of the same group, and they started debriefing us. We took showers, of course, and all that for the first time, and we slept with tape recorders for a couple nights there, and tape recorders were running all the time in case we mumbled something, or whatever, you know, debriefing us. Then we went from there to Da Nang for a day or so, and then to another hospital and from there we got flown down to Saigon. That was another couple weeks down there in the hospital at Long Binh. Interviewer: What was the main reason they had you hospitalized so much? Was it weight loss? 45:00 Weight loss and infection and everything else, yeah, and checking us out thoroughly, plus the debriefing. The debriefing took a good couple of weeks, you know, constantly going 17 �over and over what we saw, describing everyone, all of our captors, the people that were captured with us, obviously their names, everything we knew about them, our captors, what the NVA was like, how many, who they were and even markings. It was just so much information to give, there was an awful lot and maybe we were trained to be very observant, I don’t know--routes, and buildings and everything to be helpful, just to be helpful, you know. We finally got that report finished and mine was twenty-eight pages. 46:02 I had to read it and It was single spaced and twenty-eight pages and they had to go through and proof it, and proof it, to make sure they got it right and then sign it. Interviewer: What did you do after that? They gave us a choice and they said, the Army--and we met some high ranking officials and stuff , because we, at the time, 1968, they told us we were the tenth and eleventh prisoners to escape in the whole history of the war. That’s all, from the time it started, heavily started, back in the early sixties, you know, so we were kind of the oddities there. They came in one day and said, ―You’re going to get a choice, the choice of an assignment in Vietnam, or the choice of assignment anywhere else in the world‖. 47:03 they knew I came from Germany and the other fellow, he was assigned in the states, I think it was in Portland, Oregon, so he said, ―You get three choices, give me your three choices right now‖, and I said, ―I’ll take Milwaukee, Wisconsin, as my first choice, Chicago second, and Minneapolis/St. Paul the third, my family was close and all that. Okay, they took right down and the other fellow says, ―Portland, Oregon, Portland, Oregon, Portland, Oregon‖, and he was from New Jersey, but anyway, so we got our first choices. They shipped us back and I had a year or so, a year and a half, a year and four months to go before I was—my three years were up. So, I’m back in the army again and 18 �I’m in the Milwaukee field office. It was an eight man unit there, civilian clothes and because I was coming in they had to kick somebody else out of that office and send them someplace else. 48:07 One of the civilians I would guess—so that year in the United States military intelligence was another whole different picture that I was not familiar with, so I got to see three different types of intelligence operations. I thought I was very fortunate, you know, Europe was different, the war zone was different in Vietnam, and now we’re in the United States and very interesting. It came down to the end ,in 1969, to get released and then they made me big offers to stay in, you know, re-up bonus money and the choice of assignments, more schooling, and much more rank. 49:02 I said, ―No‖, so I left the military in 1969 and went back to Stout, to Wisconsin Stout and got a master degree in communications technology and got married and started having children and ended up here in Michigan. Interviewer: Did you know about the war protests going on over here when you were in Vietnam? Yes, we saw it going over. When I flew to Vietnam we left from the Oakland army base near San Francisco. There was a lot of protesting done there and that was in 1967. When we came back from Vietnam we landed in San Francisco—a big three hundred passenger, both trips, over and back, a big three hundred passenger commercial airline we were on and most of them were military people that were on there. 50:07 They were in uniform, all services, all ranks, and some civilians. To and from Vietnam, we stopped in Hawaii, and that kind of thing, we stopped in Guam, you know, and we came back to San Francisco, the plane lands out on the tarmac, not up at the terminal, but out on the tarmac. We walked down the stairs and across—a couple of hundred yards across to the terminal, 19 �and the airline people said, ―Now, when you get to the terminal, when you walk in that gate, expect to find an awful lot of people there, protesters and stuff, stay away from them. We’ll have guards lines up and ropes, so you stay within the ropes, don’t get over them‖, so sure enough, we—and there were fifty, or so. 51:02 For every plane coming in, that was their job, to harass the troops. We were getting spit at, yelled at, and stuff thrown at us, signs, you know, but spitting mostly. I’m walking in and I have my uniform on—I’m walking in with a bunch of other fellow that I don’t know what— Marines and Army and stuff, and I thought these guys—these guys were hardened killers and just served a year in Vietnam, in their units, and I thought, ―Jeez, I wonder if these protesters really know how close—these guys wouldn’t think twice, if they were touched, or grabbed, of turning around and attacking them, eliminating them with their bare hands, not with guns‖. 52:12 But, how dangerous for those protesters it could be—you know, these fellows coming back from a war zone, they’re—they have a whole different outlook on life, because they’ve been, for the most part, killing people for a year. Some of the jobs, not all of them, but some of them were like that. Anyway, that was really hard to listen to, you know I think because of our experience, we were given a month off before we were to report to our next assignment in Milwaukee, so I went home and I don’t even know what happened to that month. 53:00 You just came from the experience I had and what really happened, and I’m here, I’m back home, sitting in my parents living room and watching TV at night getting the update on the war and the war is still going on. Walter Cronkite is showing the battle for Hue every night and how they’re trying to recapture the city and I was just there. I was just in all that sort of stuff, you know, a few weeks before and it just—―What just happened to my life?‖ That’s what you think. 20 �Anyway, you report to Milwaukee in a month and I had a real good assignment there. My commanding officer was a fellow that had just returned from Vietnam in a different military intelligence unit, so we had a lot in common and we got along great. 54:04 It was a good experience, it really was. Interviewer: Do you think you might have had an advantage, being older than the average eighteen? Maybe, being twenty-five, yeah, I don’t know, just—probably. Interviewer: How do you feel about that whole experience, now, looking back over the years? How has it affected your life? Well, I think it’s had a pretty good outlook, I mean I had a—I think from my perspective, in the jobs I’ve had, I see co-workers getting very, very frustrated, or uptight, or have high levels of anxiety in their jobs to get the job done right, and worrying about this, or this, I never had that. 55:08 I thought, ―Gosh, what we’re worrying about here on our job is not a life or death situation, we’ve got more things to worry about than that‖, and I think that helped me prepare, take me through the day, and the months. I was a professional educator. The last twelve years I worked, I was the assistant superintendent of schools and you’re dealing with boards of education and all types of things on a professional level, and the stress level is high, but I never let it bother me, not a bot, you know. So, I think it probably helped me. Interviewer: Did your family do anything special when you came home? 56:00 My dad was an old first sergeant, very, very tough and had served in the army in the invasion of North Africa and ended up in Sicily, in Naples, Pala Naples, and yeah, there were some parties in the town, the small town I was from, some nice parties and stuff. 21 �57:10 Excuse me—but up until about five years ago, my mother and father were the only ones that said, ―Welcome home‖. I think there was some other-- maybe high school--some of my friends might have said ―Welcome home‖, but no one else did, you know. Yeah, there were some nice—in that month I was home there were a few events and they wanted me to speak and it was difficult for me to speak. 58:00 Over the course of my professional career I was asked to speak a couple different times to high school classes, history classes, and maybe a few others, but there I’m talking to some students, high school students, about ancient history. They weren’t even born yet, let alone and that’s—it would be like the interest I might have had as a kid in the 1st WW, or the Spanish American War. It happened decades ago, so it meant nothing to them, you know, they just had to sit there and listen to this guest speaker who came in, that the teacher got in , but some kids were interested and some asked good questions, but I guess that, you know. Like I said, I had a year to go in the army yet and had to get back in the game, you had an obligation to do. 59:05 About that time, in Milwaukee, we were having some riots, there were riots here in Detroit. There were riots, if you want to call them riots, in Chicago at the 1968 presidential convention. Being an intelligence unit, civilian clothes, we had to come over and help the units that were over here in Detroit and Chicago. I was assigned to guard, but not really guard, because the secret service was also in that game, but to be on the outskirts of a lot of the action in the crowd, and assigned to Senator Musky while he was in and around Chicago. These were all the jobs the military was providing, working with the FBI office and the secret service offices. :09 In the riots in Milwaukee, about Martin Luther King’s death and in Detroit with the burnings and stuff, we had to go over and help those units out. The intelligence unit is 22 �not very big, you know eight or ten men and that’s it, there’s not a whole company of them, so you’re questioning all kinds of people, and taking pictures--all these ―rebel rousers‖ from out of town that would bust in there to cause the trouble--from the south, or wherever they were coming from. We had to identify these people, and in essence something that was changed because of that, shortly after that, and the Ellsberg Papers, we were spying on American citizens and the military had to stop that, as a result of those kinds of actions. 1:00 Students for Democratic Society, we had to keep an eye on that group that were in the various colleges, and Madison, Wisconsin was a big, another big group over there. I mean, it—the country was going through quite a change, you know, with these protests and the whole bit. I guess from an experience level, it was really something to be a part of it, just trying to do what you’re told to do, and now that’s all changed, history and the operation policies all changed and the military can’t do that anymore. Now it’s civilian agencies that are in charge of that, not the military. Interviewer: Anything else you would like to talk about your experience in Vietnam? 2:00 Five years later, May of 1973, I get an invitation, beautiful calligraphy, an invitation to the White House for dinner. I was married then, two kids then, and the government flew my wife and I out for five days in Washington DC, dinner at the White House with the President, and all the ex-prisoners that were released in February and March from Hanoi were there and there were close to six hundred ex-prisoners and their wives, or their girlfriends, or their mothers. The State Department put this big function on, and like I said, it was four or five, days we were there. 3:00 We were at the State Department for some real nice meetings with the President and Secretary Kissinger, a lot of military 23 �officials and then we were at various functions at the place we were staying. The put us up in the Washington Hilton, and the other big hotels, because there were so many people, we’re talking fourteen, fifteen hundred people, counting the spouses, or whatever. I got to meet the fellows I was captured with, the ones that survived. Three were killed, died on the trail, heading to Hanoi. None of the group I was with was kept in Hanoi, the famous ―Hanoi Hilton‖. The intelligence team members that I was with were kept about sixty miles north of Hanoi, in a small village. 4:07 Five years and two months, with two to three years, each one of them, in solitary confinement and no contact with any other Americans. All of them had real bad intestinal problems from the food and disease and whatever else, and mental problems. It was good to see them; they didn’t know that we had made it, so we had some nice parties with those folks and their wives, and stuff. We were told, when they got on the planes in Hanoi to be sent back, one of the first things they said was ―What ever happened to Hayhurst, whatever happened to Hayhurst?‖ They said, ―He made it back, he made it out‖, and they were real happy. 5:03 I got to talk with them and I said, ―When we left that morning and took off, what did yo folks do? What really happened to the rest of you?‖ he said, ―The guards didn’t know you were gone until later in the afternoon‖, because this is a long skinny trail going up and all over and they can’t keep track of the twenty-one of us spread out, maybe, over three hundred yards probably, and they can’t see—and they weren’t counting or whatever, you know. We’d been together with them for how many days then, and they weren’t worried about any of us attacking tem, or escaping, so the guards were real lax. They said, ―No, they didn’t know you were gone until later in the day and we’d taken your bags of rice and divvied it out, so there was nothing left‖, so they covered for us, but 24 �they were told that we were finally captured by another unit on the trail and executed immediately, so nobody else try it. 6:06 That is the story they were told, but they were tickled to death that we made it. We’ve been in contact over the years, and it’s been a very good association. All the ex POW’s from Vietnam, once a year, have a—you go to the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Florida for a physical, and there’s been data collected on these six hundred—now there’s probably five hundred and fifty left, because some have passed away, from all services. You don’t all go together and you have a whole year to get down there and go through a three, or four, day physical, where they’re collecting information on mental and physical conditions, so they have a big research study, so the fellows that I knew, we try to time ourselves, so we can get there at the same time and have some fun for the week and go back home, and that’s been a nice experience. Interviewer: Anything else? No, I can’t think of anything. Interviewer: Thank you You’re welcome 7:30 25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hayhurst, Robert (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hayhurst, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Hayhurst was born in Wisconsin in 1943. After completing college, he enlisted in the Army in 1966 and trained in military intelligence. He was initially posted to Germany, but requested a transfer to Vietnam in 1967. He was assigned to a military intelligence unit based in Hue. His unit was small and headquartered in the city rather than on a military base, so when the Tet Offensive began in 1968, his unit were besieged in their house and eventually captured by the North Vietnamese and smuggled out of Hue. While being marched overland toward Laos, he and one other prisoner escaped their captors and made it back to American lines. After extensive debriefing, he accepted reassignment to the United States for the last year of his enlistment, and was discharged in 1969. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Serafino, Meg (Interviewer) Lest We Forget Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-17 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HayhurstR1031V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/34b1c119d051f5986d0f40ae1df2dcee.jpg 13b9001bbf09a9b82de2b2409393de7a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_LS00835 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1939 Title A name given to the resource Wyoming. Grand Teton from Snake River Description An account of the resource Color lantern slide of Grand Teton mountain taken from Snake River, Wyoming. Subject The topic of the resource Lantern slides Grand Teton (Wyo.) Grand Teton National Park (Agency : U.S.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Haynes, Jack Ellis, 1884-1962 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c51c2e787998f55c284c3697f86d867c.jpg 644e91fed772fa71fc6ca45d590f80b2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_LS00836 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1939 Title A name given to the resource Tee-Win-Ot from Jenny Lake Description An account of the resource Color lantern slide of Grand Teton mountain taken from Jenny Lake, Wyomoing. Subject The topic of the resource Lantern slides Grand Teton (Wyo.) Grand Teton National Park (Agency : U.S.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Haynes, Jack Ellis, 1884-1962 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0de800d7c288b26e9261fd2d9139be52.pdf f5de962f432dfa52e3cdfdfc84efd64c PDF Text Text Sydney Hayward COVID-19 Journal Entry Being a senior in college my friends and I were really looking forward to our last couple months of being college students. We had plans set as well as plans to celebrate graduating. COVID-19 changed all those plans and memories. We have not got to see eachother even though we are still all at our apartments near campus. It has been hard adjusting to these changes and disappointing not being able to create final memories. It has also been hard to adjust to online classes. Also as a senior with the last set of finals and classes my roommates and mine motivation has been low to excel in our classes. Online classes have not helped with this and have hindered my learning. I was going to finish out my lease and stay in Allendale for the summer but with everything going on in May move home and try to find a job there. It has been hard with everything being so up in the air and not having any set plans. It has been exciting not knowing exactly what lies ahead but also caused some anxiety. All in all it has been nice to step back from the stresses of daily tasks but has added a different stress of uncertainty and missing out on experiences. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journals Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled. The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context COVID-19_2020-04-26_HaywardSydney Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hayward, Sydney Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Covid Journal Description An account of the resource Journal of GVSU student Sydney Hayward's experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic. Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/98d4c011387b89363e9b775ce4dee83e.mp4 a600b7110b25adf10bccc1e249a061d3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/af1c7a6917f1049a7430f4f2d8f2763e.pdf 022494108f7cd560f473c253360977ab PDF Text Text Haywood, Breyound Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Iraq War Interviewee’s Name: Breyound Haywood Length of Interview: (1:23:23) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Breyound Haywood of Lowell, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. We’d like to begin at the beginning, so let’s start with where and when were you born?” I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, February 28, 1973. Interviewer: “Did you grow up in Grand Rapids or did you move around?” For a few years I lived in [the] East Kentwood area, and then I moved to Ada when I was about four. Then I grew up, went to high school when I lived in Ada. Interviewer: “And, what did your family do for a living while you were growing up?” My mom was a stay-at-home mom. My father worked at Georgia-Pacific as a laborer and that was out in Walker. He worked there with his dad, so that was a nice, steady place to work. Interviewer: “And then, did you finish high school?” Yes, I did. I graduated from Grand Rapids Christian in 1991. Interviewer: “And what did you do after you got out?” When I first got done with high school I was going to go to Grand Rapids Junior College, but I signed up for classes and I never went. So, I worked at Brandywine Restaurant in East Grand Rapids for a little while, and then I decided that I really didn’t want to do that. So, a few of my friends were fans of the Grateful Dead and a couple of us bought an RV and before they left, were like, “Hey, put in $1500. We’re gonna go follow around the Grateful Dead for a while.” And I kind of went the opposite direction and joined the Marine Corps later. (2:01). �Interviewer: “So, when do you join the Marine Corps?” I left for boot camp in January of ‘93, but I joined about six months earlier–– the Delayed Entry Program. Interviewer: “And why did you select the Marine Corps?” You know, they had some commercials. I was into athletics. I had an uncle that was in the Marine Corps–– I also had a grandfather in the Army Air Corps. But, it just intrigued me as being a little bit like a challenge. It’s a challenging thing. As my uncle might have said, more people could make it through the Army than in the Marine Corps. It just appealed to me and the bases were on the coast of California [and] North Carolina, so I’d thought I’d give it a shot. Interviewer: “So, where do you go for boot camp?” I went to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego. Usually, this side of the Mississippi we would have gone to North Carolina–– Interviewer: “Parris Island, South Carolina.” Yes. Parris Island, right. But, I went to–– probably a numbers thing–– and so I went in January to Southern California. Interviewer: “Now, when I talk to people who went out there in the Vietnam Era, there’s a particular pattern or sequence that normally happens with what time of day they arrive and showing up at boot camp, and so forth. So, take us basically from Michigan to San Diego. How do you get out there?” Well, we took a bus to Lansing where they had the military and processing station. We stayed the night there and the next morning–– provided you passed all your physicals and all that–– got on a plane and flew out to the San Diego Airport. (4:06). Interviewer: “So, were you on a regular commercial flight at that point?” Yes. It was a regular commercial flight and I remember I had the envelope with all the people’s names in it. I had to take a roll call on the plane. Interviewer: “How do you figure you got that job?” �You know, I don’t remember. I think it just got handed to me. I might have been the older one because I was like 19. Interviewer: “So what time of day do you show up in San Diego?” It was daylight. I know they were three hours behind us. It would probably be the mid-afternoon. Interviewer: “Did they take you right to the Depot from there?” You know, that’s a little blurred. I remember–– yes–– getting on the bus. At first, everybody was very cordial and then once you got on the bus [it] started boot camp. Interviewer: “So what happens then?” Well, the voice gets elevated a little bit and the sense of urgency starts to get installed in you then. Interviewer: “My understanding is that the Depot is pretty close to the airport.” It is. Interviewer: “Yeah. In the Vietnam Era they drove you around in circles at night for a while before they took you there, but did you get to go straight there?” Yeah we went straight there. One thing I will remember is while at basic training, any time a plane took off–– if you were outside–– they would make you stop, they would make you scream out so you couldn’t hear the airplane. Interviewer: “Now, what kind of reception do you get at the Depot?” You know, it was very fast. It was like, “Here’s this, here’s that.” We went to a reception area for a few days–– waiting for probably enough people to form a platoon. And there was a bunch of instruction going on there, but it seemed like there was always some manual labor that needed to be done. (6:13). Interviewer: “Now, the guys in here earlier talked about coming out and they’re rushed off a bus and they stand on yellow footprints.” Yes. They did that then and that was kind of an intense thing that was like, “Yeah, okay. I’m really here. I’m really doing it now. This is it.” �Interviewer: “And, are they yelling at you the whole time?” I do not remember yelling when you’re on the footprints, but before and after absolutely. Interviewer: “But how many days do you think you’re hanging around before training actually starts?” It was probably about four days, I think, for us. Like I said, I think they just had to get enough people for a platoon. Interviewer: “So, once things start, now what happens?” Well, I mean, first thing is you have to learn how to get up right when the light comes on. You know, as a teenager, making your bed is not a big priority and I just remember that was one of the things–– one of the first things they did–– is teach you how to make your bed. And if you didn’t do it right, they would tear it apart and you would start over. And you never wanted to be the last one finished. Interviewer: “And what kinds of things are they actually teaching you when you’re first there?” When you’re first there they teach you about the rank structure. They teach you a bunch of acronyms. They teach you how to march, how to properly do a pull-up and sit-ups and how to properly wear a uniform and shave and those sorts of things. Interviewer: “And what happens when you mess up?” When I was in boot camp, you got extra physical fitness things to do. They would yell at you to reinforce whatever they were telling you–– try and instill that in there. But, most of the time it was push-ups and those sorts of things. (8:27). Interviewer: “What kind of people were training you? In terms of how old they were, what kind of backgrounds did they have, the extent that you knew anything about them?” In the Marine Corps they were fairly young drill instructors. They ranged in ranks from E4 to E6 mainly. There were some more senior people there, but I would have to say that everybody–– all the drill instructors in my platoon–– were under 30. Interviewer: “And did they have a kinder and gentler approach than what you saw in the movies?” �No. No. Full Metal Jacket would probably be an accurate representation–– only there would have been four of them instead of one you see primarily. They see-saw a couple others, but from day-to-day you would have three to four and then the senior drill instructor. They made it plain to you that you didn’t want to see him actually out there, starting to train, because that meant you guys were messing up. Interviewer: “Now, how long is the basic training?” It’s about three months. Interviewer: “Now, does it get more sophisticated as you go on? Do you get into weapons training or other things?” Well, the first month was a lot of physical fitness, marching, just basic instruction, first-aid. Second phase was weapons qualifications and you go out and do field exercises, stay in the tent, do the marching up the hills. So, there was a lot. The second phase was a lot more hands-on and outside. (10:21). Interviewer: “And there’s a third phase after that?” So, the first phase is at the Marine Corps Recruit Depot. The second phase is at Camp Pendleton for us. Interviewer: “And where is Camp Pendleton relative to the depot?” It’s about 50-miles north. So, you got to take a bus and see people on your way up which was–– you know. Interviewer: “Alright. So you have four weeks at Camp Pendleton and then the last part. Is that back at the Depot again?” It was back at the Depot. That was more like polishing up the skills that we learned and graduation. Interviewer: “Now, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Marine Corps?” It was fairly easy. Like I said, some people didn’t have an athletic background [and] maybe had a disadvantage because that was probably the hardest thing that people had to adjust to, was being able to be physically fit. Once you got that out of the way, it was easier to work on the other things. �Interviewer: “And did people have trouble with the discipline? Following orders?” There would be. But, they were trained really well. I mean, we had, I don’t know, out of 50 or so, we maybe had one that just couldn’t cut it because [they] just couldn’t handle that. People telling you what to do all the time. Interviewer: “And were there people who dropped out or got hurt because of the physical stuff?” There was. I had a friend of mine I later met–– he actually went in a month before I did–– and the guy was injured for about a month and then ended up joining us in the end. I got injured for a couple of weeks, but I was retained so I didn’t get recycled which was great. (12:21). Interviewer: “So you were far enough along that they’d thought you’d be okay or you had time to catch up?” Yeah. I don’t know exactly why they spared me. During the first phase they have a platoon guide–– which I got the job. It’s kind of like a platoon leader sort of thing, and the first thing when we went to Camp Pendleton was I got injured. So, I was the guide for the first phase and then got there–– and I think the position I had made them retain me. Interviewer: “So, you kind of got through all of that. You have… I mean, had you picked a specialization for yourself or do you wait for them to tell you what you’re going to do?” Right. When I went in, you had to pick three things. I–– despite the advice of the recruiters–– I wanted to really be in the infantry. So, I picked all three as infantry tech jobs. But, when you go into boot camp they also test you for special skills and they found out that I played an instrument. Perhaps the first mistake I made in the military was when I–– they didn’t force me to try out–– but they convinced me it was in my best interest to try out. And after the tryout, I declined to go to the concert band. I played the piano from when I was five until I left my parents house. Interviewer: “So, the Marines were upset that you don’t want to be a piano player?” They were. Interviewer: “So basically, you were gonna get assigned to the infantry at that point?” Yes. Interviewer: “So after those 12 weeks were up, now what happens to you?” �You’d get about a week off. And then for the Marines–– all Marines regardless of your MOS–– had to go to Marine Combat Training which was about a month long. Interviewer: “And where was that?” That was back at Camp Pendleton. So, that was less intense as far as having drill instructors. You got Saturday off, which was a big deal–– [and] half of Sunday. So, that was good training. (14:43). Interviewer: “And what were you actually doing?” You polish up on the small arms. Learn how to use the heavier weapons–– the Mark-19–– which was a machine gun for grenades, basically, and those types of weapons systems. We just learned a little bit of team and squad tactics. Interviewer: “And what was the standard infantry weapon at that point?” It was the M16A2. Interviewer: “So, slightly improved from Vietnam.” Yeah, a little bit. It’s really–– I had that for a long time. It was very reliable. I mean, they were trained–– you know, the average Marine could hit a person from 500-yards away without any assistance devices on the weapon itself. So, that’s pretty good–– I think. Interviewer: “And how long does the combat training go on?” It’s about 4 weeks. Interviewer: “And then do you get assigned to a unit from there?” You do not because everybody has to do the combat training and then after the combat training you go to your specific school. In my case, it was across the street at the infantry school which is basically the same thing as Marine Combat Training, but twice as long. (16:08). Interviewer: “Do you have more extended periods out in the field or things like that?” Yes. Instead of maybe going for two-days, you go for the whole week. Or, just more times with the weapons, more drilling with the squad, and team tactics. �Interviewer: “And are you being trained by anybody who has any practical combat experience, or is the timing wrong for that? It’s after Desert Storm at that point, but that was pretty short.” Yeah. I don’t remember. Most of the guys were fairly young, so if I look at their rank I would probably say they probably had not had much combat experience. Interviewer: “So, when do you actually finish all of the training? So you’re back–– you have your infantry school. When are you done with that?” So infantry school was about eight weeks long, and then towards the end–– when you’re going to graduate–– you get your unit assignment. And mine happened to be three miles down the road. Interviewer: “Okay, and what unit did you join?” I joined the 1st Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment right there at Camp Pendleton. Interviewer: “And you know what Marine Division that was a part of?” 1st Marine Division. Interviewer: “And what were they doing at that point?” That particular regiment that was in–– we had four battalions and they would train through a cycle. So, we would be deployed to the Pacific Ocean area of the Middle East. So, while one unit was going out, one was coming back. One was in a full training cycle, and the other was maybe in a recovery cycle. Between the four units, one of us was always deployed. (18:25). Interviewer: “So, where was your battalion in the sequence when you joined it?” I got there in 1993, so it was probably six months before I deployed for the first time. So, they were in the “train-up” cycle. Interviewer: “For clarification purposes, you said you enlisted in June of ‘93––” January. Interviewer: “January. That was it. There we go, that works better. So that time there, when you’re on the base, what’s daily life like?” �Daily life is [you] wake up about six, go to breakfast, you come back and do physical fitness. And from there, depending on if there’s any administrative requirements for the company that you’re in, you’re going to start working on that. But, being in the infantry, a lot of the time you’re going to go and you’re going to do physical training twice a day. Or, you’re going to go work on cleaning your weapons or you’re going to go out for the day in a squad and try to find the other squad to practice tactics and stuff. Interviewer: “Do you ever participate in anything that the trainees are going through? Or is that a separate cadre that does all of that?” It is separate. At the time when I was [there], they didn’t like to mix recruits with Marines. Interviewer: “Is there a point in the process where you go from being a recruit to a Marine?” Yes, and that would have been in the third phase of boot camp. They made a big thing about, “This recruit requests permission to do this.” When you’re in the third phase, you’re not doing that any longer. (20:25). Interviewer: “Now, you are there with them for a certain chunk and then basically–– then you’re living on the base. Do you get liberty or whatever? Can you go off base?” So, unless you’re going out in the field overnight, then it’s almost a six-to-six job. So, by dinner time, usually, you wouldn’t have anything else you’d have to do–– unless you had to stand watch somewhere. So, yes. You would have liberty everyday and usually on the weekends, unless there was training that had to be done. Interviewer: “Now, are you far enough away from things at Camp Pendleton that it would take some effort to find something to do if you left the base?” No. Oceanside–– they had a bus system. A lot of the guys didn’t buy cars when we were there, but they had a bus that would go to Oceanside in San Clemente and then you could take the train to San Diego if you wanted to–– the Amtrak train. Interviewer: “Which I guess would work on the weekend, not so much overnight.” Right. Yeah, absolutely. Interviewer: “Now, did you go on deployment with your unit?” �I did. Interviewer: “And what was that like? Or what happened?” It [was] probably two months before the whole battalion got deployed. They were trying to start a new concept for a new platoon. They had the–– there’s a lot of specialized forces. They got the Army Rangers and the unit I was in was a Zodiac Assault Company and they wanted to come up with another specialized platoon. So, they basically drafted a few of the Zodiac guys and–– the other unit was like helicopter trained troops–– and then the other part was amphibious tracked troops. The last ones were like the heavier weapons with the mortars and the heavy machine guns and stuff. (22:40). Interviewer: “Now Zodiac, that is referring to the inflatable rubber boats?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay. So, small motor boats––” Small motor boats. So, the primary goal for that would’ve been to assault a beach objective or like an oil platform or something like that. Interviewer: “So, they’re pulling guys out of the different companies and trying to create this other platoon. So you’re a part of that?” Right. Yes. So, they wanted to do that so that the platoon had all four of the elements within just one platoon rather than having to pull… Interviewer: “And what’s the point of doing that?” You know, I don’t know. They called it Special Operations K-Pool Platoon and we also–– and we had our name for it. We called it the “slaves on call platoon.” It seems like we had a lot of extra duty because we were no longer affiliated with a company. We were a detachment, so were really, like, kind of, on our own. Interviewer: “So where would your orders come from?” In a battalion they would have–– it would have come from the operations who we were actually under–– the S3. So the S3 had the Scout Sniper Platoon and then they had us. Interviewer: “When the deployment starts–– what actually happens to you? You get on ships?” �We get on the ship and once you get on the ship, it’s hard to do a lot of training. So, there’s a lot of weapons cleaning–– like all the time. There’s a little bit of reading. I remember we had to do book reports on famous battles–– which I did not anticipate having to do when I first wanted to join the infantry. But, we would eventually end up on an island or Tinian and then we’d go do some training, come back. Go to Singapore, do some training. So, we kind of bounced around from place to place like that, going out to train three, four, five [days], a week at a time. (24:54). Interviewer: “And what kind of ship were you on?” I was on a–– it was the USS Tripoli and the USS Tarawa. Tripoli was a ship that had a helicopter squadron on it and also, at the time, had Harriers, which was a big deal at the time because they could take off vertically from the ship. Interviewer: “They’re jet-fighter aircraft, but they can take off by going straight up and don’t need a long runway.” Right. Yeah. Interviewer: “And the Tarawa–– was that a helicopter carrier?” Yes it was. Interviewer: “How long was this tour?” This tour is about six-months long. We stopped in a lot of places: Saudi Arabia, Kenya. We stopped in Somalia, which was the first time we had to land and perhaps perform for real. Interviewer: “What’s the context of that? Or what actually happens?” We went to Somalia in early ‘94 and it was sometime after they had the event–– the Black Hawk Down thing–– but they were relocating the embassy that was in Somalia to Mombasa in Kenya. So, we were there to help cover that movement. So we went ashore–– and it was kind of like a show for us–– “Hey, we’re here. Don’t mess with the guys that are leaving.” (26:33). Interviewer: “What do you remember about that, or what did you see there?” I remember that we were instructed that the bandits–– the Somali bandits are what they called them–– would likely try to use civilians as shields. And we had specific rules and engagement then. I also remember we went to a place–– I don’t remember exactly where it was now–– and �we had to dig in, anticipating seeing some of these guys. Ultimately, we never did, but digging in and making a fighting hole for the first time for real was pretty intimidating. Interviewer: “And then did you get to go ashore any place where you were on your own? So, did you get to tour anything?” Oh, absolutely. We got time off in Singapore and Phuket, Thailand–– United Arab Emirates. We stayed in Mombasa for about a month and so it was almost everyday for a month. We went to Saudi Arabia, Jordan. Interviewer: “Were there rules that you’re told what you can and can’t do when you go into these places?” Oh, absolutely. A lot of the Middle East countries–– they talked about [how] they were dry as in no alcohol. If you wanted to drink beers and stuff, you could do that right in front of the ship. They had–– they called it a beer garden–– and you could just stay there. But, they said when you had drinks like that they didn’t want you to leave. They didn’t want you to go into the town. And they didn’t want you to develop pictures in town either. (28:37). Interviewer: “Did they tell you not to talk to their women or anything like that?” I know that that would’ve been in something, especially in the Middle Eastern countries. Yeah. The other countries–– Thailand, Singapore, Kenya, no. Interviewer: “Now, are there any other particular things that happened in that tour that stand out in your memory.” We went to Hong Kong when it was still occupied by the British and we had a friendly game of rugby with the Royal Black Watch which was from Scotland. And that stood out to me because they were stationed there, they had their families there, and halfway through the game I remember we had to–– because they were so much better than we were–– we integrated the teams half and half. Then after the game, the person that played your position on the opposite team, they paired you up and they took you and showed you town. So, I thought that was pretty cool. Interviewer: “And when do you get back from that trip?” So, it would have been about six-months later. And they actually produce sort-of a yearbook for that, and it had the whole timeline. I can’t recall what month we got back. (30:06). �Interviewer: “Now, you don’t actually stay in the Marine Corps too much longer after that.” Right. I do one more deployment with the Marine Corps, so in 1996. Interviewer: “I guess, in the original clock you said it was through 03/94 or was it 03/96?” The deployment was through ‘94. But, I got out of the Marine Corps in March of ‘97. Interviewer: “‘97. Okay. Let me make sure I have my numbers there right. So, basically, you’re doing the whole hitch you signed up for.” Right. I did like three extra months. They kept firing my replacement. And when you get towards the end of your enlistment, you can take what they call terminal leave, which is you sign-out on vacation and you never come back. Well, in my case I put in [for] it, got approved, they fired my replacement, and then they would cancel my vacation. Interviewer: “Now, fired your replacement. So you’ve got a particular position now?” Right. Later on, I ended up–– the infantry battalions are always short on administrative and logistical personnel so I ended up doing mail, which was a really good job for me. I got my own office as a very young Marine. Interviewer: “What rank were you at that point?” I was an E3, so I was a Lance Corporal. So, I had that and I had one other guy that worked for me and we did the mail. It was all hand-sorted at that point. Interviewer: “And when did you get that job?” I got that, probably, on my way back from deployment. I, kind of, got marked for that job. So, it’d have been probably early ‘95. Interviewer: “So coming back from the second deployment.” No. Coming back from the first deployment. During the second deployment I did mail during that deployment. Interviewer: “Now, between deployments are you just back at Camp Pendleton again?” �Yeah. You go back to Camp Pendleton and when you first get back you’re kind of in a–– a lot of people take vacation, a lot of people will actually move around to different units/different jobs, you start getting a lot of the new people and then before you know it, you’re back into a training cycle to get ready to get deployed again. (32:41). Interviewer: “And is there any difference–– aside from having you get the mail job–– in terms of otherwise, your daily life for your second stint there at Camp Pendleton as opposed to the first? Do you see things any differently than you did before?” Yeah. It was a very big difference from being in the infantry than to be in one of the staff sections. It was a lot less intense. Especially with the training because the infantry guys were out doing training–– I was just doing the mail that way. So, my job got more monotonous–– more predictable, you know. I had a very set schedule where the other guys had more training and spur-of-the-moment lifestyle. Interviewer: “So, were you happy with this change or did you miss the rest of it?” I actually did–– I liked the change. I liked having a more predictable schedule. I like taking a shower every night. Interviewer: “So that was alright with you at that point. Then, now you get a second deployment. Does that follow pretty much the same system as the first or are there things that stand out that are different?” It’s pretty much the same. I mean, we had some interesting layovers with some operations that we had to do. Also, on my second deployment we were supposed to go to Australia but we ended up getting diverted to go to the Philippines–– which worked out for me because my uncle lived there. So, halfway around the world, at a last-minute stop, I was able to say, “Hey. I’m going to go to my uncle’s house.” So, that was really big for me–– being away from home for so long and then just happening to go someplace where I have relatives. It’s pretty cool. (34:56). Interviewer: “Where else did you stop on that tour?” A lot of it was the same, so Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Djibouti, the East Coast of Africa, Bahrain, a lot of countries in the gulf again. Oman and Thailand again, Singapore. The ones that stood out right now. Interviewer: “Now, when you go ashore in different places, how do the civilians or the people around seem to view you or treat you?” �Well, most of it was actually pretty good because we were restricted to certain areas. And they treated us well because we always were cooped up and a lot of people wanted to spend a lot of money. So, they treated you very well. Interviewer: “Were there some places where you’d kind of go off on your own or be less restricted?” Pretty much when you get outside of the Persian Gulf, just about any other countries we went to. China–– we went to Hong Kong–– and Singapore, Thailand. We still had a zone, you know, we could go in, but as long as you could say, “Hey. I’m going to the Holiday Inn in Phuket, Thailand.” They’ll say okay. (36:21). Interviewer: “So when do you come back from that?” So that would have been–– I don’t remember the date, but I remember a football season was still in effect. Because that was one of the first things I did when I came back from that second deployment–– was went and saw a football game in San Diego. Interviewer: “Now, at this point, have you basically decided to leave the Marine Corps?” I did. I decided that I was probably going to go in the Reserves afterwards because you always had a commitment of up to eight years, and I felt like if they could call me back, then I might as well practice the skill they’re going to call me back for. So, I decided that I was probably going to join the Marine Corps Reserve–– probably back in [the] Grand Rapids area. Interviewer: “Now, when do you actually get discharged from the Marine Corps?” So, I think it was March of ‘97. Interviewer: “Then, so what do you wind up doing at that point?” Well, a few months before that I actually met my wife in Long Beach, California. So, I ended up joining the Army National Guard in California. The Marine Reserve was too stringent as far as the annual training period–– I had gotten a job and was selling pools and pool supplies and of course during the summer is when you’re going to do most of your work. And I remember the Army National Guard was going to be more flexible with the summer training, saying [I] could do it in the spring, [I] can do it in the winter. (38:14). Interviewer: “So, you join the Army National Guard–– do you have to now get Army training?” �No, but I should have. There’s a lot of terminology and customs and–– just, it’s different. There’s some similarities, but it was a learning curve. They were used to that because the Army Guard is made up of all kinds of different people–– from the Navy Guard people, Army, Marine Corps, whatever. It’s mixed so, I think, they have a better understanding of it. Unlike when I went to active duty for the Army a few years later. It was a bit–– that terminology block manifested itself pretty much there. Interviewer: “So where were you living in California at that point?” I was living south of Camp Pendleton. Interviewer: “But still in the San Diego area?” Yes. Interviewer: “So, how long do you stay with the guard unit then?” So that was probably about a year. And then, when I was getting married, I needed to get a better job so I ended up–– I was looking for jobs and I ended up coming back to Holland, Michigan to work for Prince Corporation. So, I transferred to the Michigan Army Guard–– back to the infantry. (40:02). Interviewer: “And so when do you get back there?” Let’s see–– I got married in ‘98, so I would have to say it would have been about September of ‘98. Interviewer: “And then it’s not too long after that that you wind up active duty in the Army. So, how does that happen?” Well, it happened a couple of ways. One, my wife got homesick for California and when I was looking to get jobs out there, I really didn’t know where to look as far as getting a decent job. But, I knew they had some Army bases around, so I went and I looked and they had one that was in Fort Irwin, which was about two hours from where my wife’s family lived. So I said, “Well, if you want to go out to Fort Irwin in the desert, I’ll do an enlistment there.” And so that’s what I did. Interviewer: “Now, when you go out there are you infantry or something else?” �I am in transportation now. So, I had to go back through Army training–– and this is where the terminology difficulties came into play. Interviewer: “So what happened?” My first day that I showed up for Army training–– in the Marine Corps they did not have drill instructors at schools. The Army at the time had drill sergeants at basic training and at the schools. So, when I got there, I walked up to–– what I later found out was a drill sergeant–– I told him, “Hey. I’m looking for Alpha Company. Can you help me out? Where is it at?” I’m in my uniform [and] he was in a physical fitness uniform, so I couldn’t tell what rank he was or anything. And he looks at me and he tells me to “beat my face,” which is a thing that they said at basic training in the Army. It means do push-ups, because, you know, you do push-ups till you touch your nose. I guess that’d be “beat your face.” So I told him, “Look man, if you don’t want to help me out just say it.” So, I didn’t know he was a drill sergeant and I walked away from him and that led to some further instruction. (42:40). Interviewer: “So, how quickly did you adjust, I guess?” Probably–– it was like that for the first few days and finally I spoke to the senior enlisted person, the First Sergeant, and then I said, “Look, I was in the Marine Corps. I’m in the Army now. Is there a book or something? Is there something that I can get because there’s all these terms [and] I just don’t know what they are.” And when I asked, most people looked at me like I’m retarted or something because they see that I have a certain rank. And they say, “There’s no way you can get that rank and not know these terms.” So, he worked with me for about a day or so and gave me a list of terms, and from then on it got better. Interviewer: “Did you make peace with the original drill instructor or just not see him anymore?” Yeah. I just didn’t really see him that much anymore. But, I’m sure he found out, you know, the whole story there–– or the rest of the story. Interviewer: “Yeah, because you were really the new guy, but not a kid.” Right. Interviewer: “So, what rank are you at this point?” I was a specialist–– an E4. So, when I was in the Marine Corps I was a Corporal–– which, you know, was considered an NCO–– and in the Army E4 is not. So, it was a little bit of a pride thing �to take the step down, even though it was the same pay. Then, when you switch over like that, you kind of start from day one as being an E4 again. Now you’re E4 with one day of service. But, it was still all right. (44:33). Interviewer: “Now, what unit were you with now that you’re on active duty?” I was with the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment and I was in the Supply and Transportation Platoon. So, we had vehicles and supplies that we would take out to the troops that were training. Interviewer: “And what kind of vehicles did you have?” They were like the military’s version of semi-trucks. They would haul tanks. We had a platoon that would haul tanks, we had a platoon that hauled water and fuel, and ones that had these trailers that had showers. It was like the whole trailer had eight showers in it. Interviewer: “And this was at Fort Irwin.” Fort Irwin is the National Training Center. It’s in the desert. Units would come out there for about a month at a time and the training unit there–– we would do ten training cycles a year and then we’d get Christmas time off and one month in the summer where you wouldn’t have any units in for training. Interviewer: “But is your regiment based there?” Yes. Interviewer: “So, that is your permanent base and other people come through and train there?” Yes. Interviewer: “And, how did that assignment work out?” It was okay. The job wasn’t bad. Once again, because I was in a transportation unit this time, they were also short on administrative people, so they found my background and I was with the transportation unit for like two weeks and then they put me in the orderly room where they did administrative stuff. (46:29). Interviewer: “So your mail clerk time came back to haunt you?” �It did. It did. Once again though, this was better for me because I wasn’t doing the grunt work anymore. Interviewer: “So you’re not going out and doing as many exercises anymore. Do you have a regular, daily schedule?” Right. Absolutely. Interviewer: “So you had like a grown-up job type of thing.” Yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Now, you’re doing this when 9/11 happens?” Yes. Interviewer: “So, tell me what happens that day and afterward?” So, the day before 9/11–– two days before 9/11 I was on leave. My wife had to have surgery so I was taking care of my wife. She’s on medication, she’s been up half the night. So, in the morning she’s out on the couch and she said, “The Pentagon’s on fire.” And I said, “That’s nice honey. Let me turn the TV off.” Because at that point, I hadn’t heard anything yet. But, it was about half-an-hour after that I got a phone call saying, “I know you’re on leave, but you can’t leave the base.” Then, that’s when we found out what was happening. Interviewer: “So were you living on base?” We were. We were living on base and they closed it down so anybody that was off-base could not get on, and anybody that was on base could not get off. Very quickly–– I think the next day or two–– I don’t know if they canceled school for a day or not, but I remember when the kids went back to school they were being escorted by soldiers–– like with weapons systems. They were doing extra patrols in the streets of the neighborhoods we lived in. They doubled or tripled the guards on the perimeters of the base. So, it was an intense time. (48:41). Interviewer: “Now, does the operation of your unit change at all after that or do you keep doing what you’ve been doing?” Well, we kept doing what we were doing. But, shortly after that–– when we started to go to Iraq a platoon of mine got pieced together with some other transportation units, and then we went to Iraq. �Interviewer: “So, did you go to Iraq with them or did you send them and stay?” I went with them. Before I got sent, one of my jobs was [that] I was the nuclear biological chemical advisor. Everybody hated that guy. Nobody wanted to do the training with the gas and this and that and the other thing. But instantly, overnight, I became the most popular guy there. “Hey man, can you take a look at my mask? I just want to make sure it’s working properly.” “Am I doing this right?” But, I got reassigned to transportation to be like a driver, and that’s when I went over to Iraq. Interviewer: “Now, what kind of preparation do they put you through before they send you to Iraq?” Well for us, our whole training at the National Training Center was prepared for something like that. That’s why you’re in desert conditions and you’re preparing. You’re fighting a simulation war, so, in retrospect, our units would have been the best units to send because we’ve been training for this ten months out of the year for every year. (50:22). Interviewer: “Now, do you go straight from Fort Irwin out to the Middle East? Or do you join other units somewhere else?” We did. We joined three other platoons in Colorado for about a month/month-and-a-half and then we arrived in Kuwait on April Fool’s Day, 2003. Then, shortly after that we were running back and forth in Iraq and Kuwait and other places. Interviewer: “So, by the time you got there, the invasion had already started, right? You were already––” Right. And our equipment–– we were supposed to be there earlier. We were supposed to go through Turkey and somehow that deal didn’t go through and then they rerouted our stuff to Kuwait. So, we had to fly to Kuwait and catch up to our equipment there. Interviewer: “And then do you leave Kuwait right away or do you stay and train there for a while?” We were there–– maybe–– not more than a week. And we were going, taking tanks and moving equipment. When we got there it was–– I considered it to be a little disorganized because they would send us out with some tanks to go somewhere and then when we’d get there somebody in a position of authority would say, “Hey. Can you help us out with this?” And then we’d do that and then we’d get to another place and the person with some authority would say, “Can you do �this?” So, it was kind of that whole deployment–– it was pretty much like that, where you’d get somewhere and you were just–– I mean, it could have been Marines, it could have been anybody–– and you would help [with] whatever they needed and then when nobody asked you for anymore, you went back to your original base or wherever we came from originally. Sometimes that would be a week, sometimes that would be like a month. (52:26). Interviewer: “Did you have a permanent base?” We did, and probably two-to-three months in we had a–– yes, we had a base that was Camp Speicher in Iraq. And what we did [was], the stuff that we didn’t take–– [or] absolutely need–– we kept there. But, we really didn’t spend much time there because we were mostly on the road. Interviewer: “And so were you up in the area around Baghdad or were you farther south?” We went all the way from the port in Kuwait all the way up to Tikrit, and we even went up to Mosul. And we went all the way up to–– pretty much, I’m sure–– the border with Syria. Interviewer: “So, you’re back and forth. Now, during the time frame that you’re doing this– – it’s gotta be mostly in 2003? How dangerous was that job?” It was pretty dangerous. Our unit was pretty fortunate as far as suffering casualties. But, it was really stressful because we were going through–– a lot of the time we’re going through cities and you don’t know–– you don’t know where the next guy is going to take a shot at you from. You’re going down a little street and there’s buildings on either side–– you’re like, “Okay. A bad guy could be in any one of those windows.” So, it was a little stressful that way. (54:07). Interviewer: “So, you’re worried at that point about snipers. Were there IEDs yet or does that come later?” We didn’t really encounter very much of the IEDs, but what we encountered were small groups– – just kind of out of nowhere–– trying to take shots at you. But, yeah, the IEDs were not big for us when I was there. Interviewer: “So, if somebody does shoot at you, do you have a response or protocols to follow?” Yeah. For us, the detained crews manned their weapon systems–– not the big gun–– but they had machine guns and stuff like that. We, halfway through our deployment, had infantry reinforcements that would ride with us. But, our primary job was just to navigate through and not to return fire. Which is kind of like, counterintuitive sometimes. You’re starting to get shot at �and the first thing you want to do is fire back, but for us our job was not to do that. It was to get the equipment to its needed position. Interviewer: “What does Iraq look like to you?” Well, you know, first coming to Iraq through Kuwait is [it] looked like Fort Irwin–– desert, a bunch of nothingness. Then, you start getting towards some of the cities and the first thing I notice is the signs on the highway are in Arabic and they’re in English. And that striked me because I thought they hated English/Western civilization. But, all of their signs are in English and Arabic. (56:20). Interviewer: “Because those were things that were left over from the Saddam regime–– not just new things we put up since we got there.” Right. Absolutely. Interviewer: “Now, were you pretty much at a distance from the Iraqi people just because of the nature of your job?” No. I mean, you’re going through towns and unfortunately, sometimes, they would try to interfere with operations. When I first got there, people would see kids in tattered clothes and be like, “Oh my god, slow down.” [And] would slow down their convoys and once you slow down, the adults would jump out from somewhere and jump on the back of your truck and try to steal anything that wasn’t ratcheted down properly. That was hard for a lot of us to get over because it was a tactic they were using to just try to steal stuff. There were some people that would cheer when we would come and there were some people that would gesture whatever they were gesturing–– I’m guessing they didn’t like us for whatever reason. But, yes. We did have some interactions–– some of those good and some that weren't. Interviewer: “Now, did you have vehicles that would break down on these convoys?” We did. Interviewer: “And what do you do when that happens?” So, on a convoy we would–– if you had eight pieces of equipment, you’d have maybe two or three extra that were empty to, what we call, “self-recover.” Say my truck broke down, they would haul it up on the trailer–– the empty trailer–– and then that truck that didn’t have a trailer on it would come take our trailer. So, we had a lot of that. Now, the only problem with that is the first safe place they would find, they would stick to it and just say, “We’ll report your location, �try to get it fixed, and we’ll pick you up on the way back.” So, one time that happened on our way down to Kuwait, when we were going to pick up some stuff and my truck broke down. They put us up on the trailer, took our trailer, and we got to Kuwait and they said, “We’ll be back.” [It] turned out to be about three weeks. (58:51). Interviewer: “But at least they left you in Kuwait, not on some small operating base in the middle of Iraq.” Right. But we did get left in a small operating base in Iraq though too, which was–– it’s like you felt by yourself but there were other US forces there–– different from our unit, but they still took care of you, they still fed you, and helped to get your vehicle going again. Interviewer: “And how long do you think you were in Iraq?” I was there for about six-months. Interviewer: “Now, did the situation seem to change at all while you were there or were you just doing the same thing at the end as you were at the beginning?” I was doing the same thing. When I first got there, my contract was coming up to be done in early 2004 and they instituted the Stop-Loss meaning your contract got up in March, but we’re extending that indefinitely because we need you. About five-months into my time in Iraq they said, “You can leave now.” So, I was there for about another month and then I came back home. (1:00:10). Interviewer: “And then when you got back home, did you change your position?” When I got back home I basically was getting ready to be discharged. So, there’s a lot of medical stuff that we had to go through from being overseas. So, that took–– actually–– a few months and then I had two months of vacation that I had saved up. So, I went and got my job back in Holland, Michigan–– although it wasn’t Prince Corporation anymore it was Johnson Controls–– and I ended up coming home. Interviewer: “Okay, we’ve taken your story to the point where you’ve come back from Iraq in 2004 and you’re going off to active duty. Now, when you get back from Iraq–– does the Army do anything to help you kind of reprocess or reorient out adjusting to civilian life?” At that point, I came back individually, so in my experience there wasn’t anything set up. I was just–– it was just time for my contract to end. So, when I first came back from Kuwait I landed in Fort Hood, Texas and didn’t have my records. I was like “Yes. Just because I’m from Fort Irwin �in California.” They’re like, “Well, we’re going to send you to [Fort Carson]. We’re gonna go to Fort Carson, we’re going to send you to Fort Carson because that’s where you deployed from.” I’m like, “Okay.” I wasn’t from there. So, when I got to the airport with my ticket to Fort Carson–– the airline that I was on was gonna charge me for my excess baggage. It’s like all my combat/deployment stuff. Well, I had been gone so long my ATM card expired and I wasn’t able to get anything. So, I missed the flight and long story short I ended up–– couldn’t get ahold of my wife initially–– [and] I got ahold of my mom and I got a flight on Southwest Airlines and I didn’t go to Fort Carson–– I flew to Las Vegas and had my wife pick me up. So, I went straight back to Fort Irwin. So, talk about reintegration again–– no. They were not ready for anything for me. I mean, they wanted me to go to a place I wasn’t even stationed at. So, I came back to Fort Irwin and I was there for a few months and then I checked out. (1:02:59). Interviewer: “So, now you’re going back to Michigan again?” Yes. Interviewer: “Is that basically because that’s where a good job was?” Yes. With the–– I forgot the particular law, but I had not quit my job. I [had] said I am going on active duty. So, they, by law, have to give you your job back within a certain number of years. What was nice about that was I got all of the raises that I would’ve gotten if I was there–– you know, seniority and all of that. So, that was nice. So, we moved back, I took a break for about six-months–– from the military–– then I was like, “You know what? I’m almost halfway through.” Let me at least go into the Reserve or the Guard or something to get the 20-year retirement. So, I did that. I went in the Michigan Army National Guard as a paralegal, working in the JAG Department, and about six-months/eight-months or so after that, I got asked to apply for a full-time position. I said, “This sounds like a good idea.” So, I did it. And then I spent about the next eleven-years as an AGR–– Active Guard Reserve–– which was pretty interesting. (1:04:27). Interviewer: “And where did you work out of?” For about the first four years I was in Wyoming on 44th Street with the 126th Armored Battalion. I did various assignments there working in operations and administration. And then I went and worked at the joint force headquarters in Lansing. [I] did that for about four years or so. That was a unique assignment as well. Then, after–– I’m gonna back up a little bit–– about my third year with the 126th Armored, we got deployed to Iraq again. Interviewer: “Did you go with them?” I did, yeah. �Interviewer: “Yeah. We should be talking about that.” And that was–– I went to a staff position. I worked with safety. I was like the safety noncommissioned officer, so I worked with an officer and his job was to–– because the IEDs now were big–– and his job was all the convoys going out, he was checking the electronics, making sure. Basically, they had devices that if you were going over an IED and they were trying to remote detonate it with like phones, it jammed all of that stuff so that it wouldn’t explode when you got past it. So, his job was to make sure the electronics were working. And part of my job was to make sure that the soldiers would actually wear their protective gear. So, how could I do that if I didn’t go with them? It was really hard. So, sometimes I did what I called “ride-alongs.” Just as, “Okay. Here’s the guy that’s going to tell on you if you’re not wearing your stuff. He’s here with us, so everybody wear your stuff.” (1:06:34). Interviewer: “So, where did you spend most of your time on that tour?” I spent most of my time in Kuwait. We were a few miles from the border and our guys were going back and forth all of the time. Interviewer: “So you basically have kind of a permanent base camp there?” Yes. Interviewer: “And do you have buildings or connexes or tents?” Yeah, we had all of that. Initially when we got there I was in a tent with a wood floor. Then, we got the connexes [where] if you were a certain rank you could use that. I also worked with some logistics guys and in our logistics building we actually had a refrigerator and a microwave–– which was pretty nice to have in the middle of the desert. Interviewer: “Then, how often would you actually go with the convoys?” Not that often because I had a meeting I had to do every week at Camp Arifjan which was the big, permanent base in Kuwait. But, I would go. Either when the boss said or I wanted to get out. Interviewer: “And then how far afield would you go?” You know, I couldn’t tell because when I went I had to sit in the back. Interviewer: “So you didn’t know where you were.” �I didn’t know where we were, where we were really going. I mean, I would kind of listen in on the headset, but we weren’t going that far. I mean, we’re going a couple of hours and a lot of the time we were escorting supplies. So, we had to escort them from Kuwait, you know, [a] safe area–– somewhat–– then we would escort them into Iraq and then somebody else would take them to where their final destination was. (1:08:37). Interviewer: “Now, were IEDs a problem on the stretches of road that you covered?” Yeah–– sometimes. I don’t recall–– maybe a couple of times our guys were involved in that. But, once again, we were pretty fortunate in that area. Interviewer: “Okay. And it was probably less activity in that sector than there were in some of the others. You didn’t have a lot of population around.” Right. Yeah. But, sometimes, you know, they had to go to the airport in Iraq–– Baghdad Airport. Those were some of the longer ones. Interviewer: “While you’re out there in Iraq, or Kuwait for that matter, how much contact did you have with home?” So, the last deployment–– 2008–– it was remarkably different than the other ones because I actually bought a cell phone and I could call home when I wanted to. It was expensive, but they also had–– at Kuwait–– they had a phone center. They also had email. That was something we used. Interviewer: “How much did you use that yourself? Was it better not to talk to home too much?” Yeah. I mean, I probably called home once a week [and] maybe email once or twice a week. But, yeah, you didn’t want to get like–– you kind of wanted to keep it separate because if you start talking to home too much, the kid misses you, you miss the kid and that sort of thing. So, it’s kind of tough to walk that line, I guess. (1:10:42). Interviewer: “Because you still got to keep your head in your own business over there.” Absolutely. Interviewer: “Now, in total, how many times did you go to Iraq then?” �I went to Iraq twice. Interviewer: “So one tour regular and one with the Guard Unit?” Yes. Interviewer: “Now the second tour, I mean, now you're getting into a period [where] you had more IEDs, you had more insurgency–– the surge thing had started or whatever. So, there’s a lot of news back home about people blowing up and getting killed and that sort of thing–– casualties being taken. Did your family worry about that or did you have to reassure them that that’s exaggerated?” Yeah. You know, I kind of downplayed my level of activity or the unit's level of activity. You kind of really didn’t talk about what you were doing but I kind of said this is what my job is, this is what I’m doing most of the time, and I wouldn’t necessarily say, “Hey, I just got back from Iraq” or “I’m leaving tomorrow.” Interviewer: “Yeah. ‘Hey, don’t worry. I’m in Kuwait.’ Now, how well did you understand at that point–– in that second tour–– how much understanding did you have of what was actually going on in Iraq, or what the bigger picture was?” To me, it was actually irrelevant because at my level I wasn’t concerned with that. I was just concerned with what my job was and just doing that properly. And I’m sure I watched the news or whatever when I could, but yeah. Whatever was going on, it just really didn’t matter because it wasn’t–– as far as I looked at it, it wasn’t gonna affect what I was going to do day-to-day until I was done. (1:12:40). Interviewer: “And are there other particular things that happened in that second deployment? Or impressions you’ve got that sort of stand out for you?” I remember there was a big push for people to get people to vote and a lot of that didn’t work out, just because we didn’t prepare for it properly and people [were] trying to get absentee ballots–– it was a mess. Interviewer: “So they’re not really coordinated for that.” Right. Now, we have–– since then–– the unit I was in instituted an additional job for somebody as a voting officer. And it’s their job–– if the unit gets identified to be deployed–– to figure all of that out we leave. �Interviewer: “So they made, at least, that much of an adjustment. So, you come back in 2008 or was it 2009?” Yes. Interviewer: “Now this time when you come back, are you going back with the whole unit?” The whole unit. Interviewer: “Now, do they get any kind of reorientation when they come back?” It was minimal at that point. I left a few days before the rest of the guys did, but, I mean, we all went to Kuwait for like a week or something and then went back to our mobilization center–– Fort Hood–– again. But, I don’t think we were there for more than a week. (1:14:24). Interviewer: “But, do they give you any lectures or information––” They did. They did present information–– I don’t know how much we really listened, you know. For us–– you know–– for me, it was my fourth time coming back and forth. I did go home during the middle of the deployment once for a couple of weeks. Interviewer: “How does that work?” It’s strange to do that. Yeah–– it was just strange. Interviewer: “Do you put in a request to do that or [do] they put your name in a hat somewhere and then say it’s your turn?” Well, it kind of goes on how long you’re projected to be deployed. So, they’ll say it’s supposed to be eight months, so then starting within the third month there, the third through the fifth month they try to say, “Anybody that wants to go home, we’re going to send all the people that want to go home, home.” But, they had to do it at like five percent of people at a time. So that was strange. I was out of the first one that would go and you kind of think you want to break it up, like you want to go halfway through or something like that. But, yeah. I didn’t really have control of that. Interviewer: “And so once they tell you [that] you get to go, what’s the process to get you home?” �At that point they would fly you, basically, anywhere you wanted to go. So, you fly out of Kuwait and it's, “Where do you want to go?” Of course, I went home because I had family but some people went to other places. They didn’t have family and they went to Ireland or wherever. (1:16:25). Interviewer: “So an R&R kind of thing. Now, are you flying in uniform?” We did. Interviewer: “And how were people treating you? If they see you in uniform, what do they do?” Well, during the initial flight, everybody was in uniform. But, like when I got–– I flew into Atlanta. You know, I don’t really remember people at that point interacting with me–– probably just because I want to go home. But, other times I would fly for training and stuff, you know, [and] people would talk to you, offer to buy you a drink, you know, that sort of thing. But, definitely [a] much different experience than my father-in-law had [as a] Vietnam vet. I did not ever have someone, you know, come up and be negative towards me–– at least to me. Interviewer: “So, it’s not an uncomfortable thing to do–– to have to travel around in uniform?” It’s not uncomfortable, some people just don’t like talking to people and if you’re wearing a uniform–– at a time like that, you know, war time–– people are gonna want to talk to you. And sometimes that bothers people. They’re like, “I just want to go get a coffee, leave me alone.” Interviewer: “And how many kids did you have at that point?” So, at that point I had three. My youngest one was–– he had turned one during that 2008 deployment. And I talked to him on the phone and that’s how he knew my voice–– was on the phone. And when they came to pick me up from the airport, I got in a van and I sat next to him and when I started talking to him and was just freaking out, looking at me. So, I took the cell phone, gave him the cell phone, went in the back, and I just started talking to him. And I just remember doing that. (1:18:36). Interviewer: “The other ones were old enough to remember you?” Yeah. The other ones were old enough to remember me. �Interviewer: “So, now you’re back and then how long do you stay in your job with the Guard after that?” So, when I got back I stayed all the way up till retirement. So, I retired December 31st, 2016. Interviewer: “And that’s how many total years in?” It was 23 in total. Interviewer: “Since then what have you been doing?” Well, I’ve actually been recovering–– physically–– and had a few surgeries right after I retired, so that’s been taking up a lot of time. Interviewer: “Did any of those relate to the military service?” Yeah, all of them. Interviewer: “Okay. So, what happened to you?” So, my last couple of years, you know, with being in my middle 40s–– it’s kind of a bit older to be out with the troops doing training and everything. So, I tore my achilles tendon and I broke my ankle. I tore my rotator cuff and bicep muscle. So, subsequent surgeries to follow up on those. Interviewer: “But you changed your assignment though, with the Guard, because you were with the Armored Battalion first and then you kind of moved on to more conventional staff positions.” Right. But after that, I decided that I wanted to go back out with the troops and that’s what I did. I came back to the transportation unit. And that–– in hindsight–– was a mistake on my part. (1:20:23). Interviewer: “Found out you were too old, after all. So, basically, you had to get put back together after all of that stuff. And then [do] you have a job now?” I do not. I had a job, initially, at the post office. But, after a few months of doing that is when I realized that my shoulder was messed up, so I was on medical leave for like a year/year-and-ahalf and they’re like “Hey. You know, it’s been a year-and-a-half. We’re not firing you, but we need to hire somebody.” So, I decided last January–– I started going to college. �Interviewer: “And where are you going to school?” GRCC. Interviewer: “Back where you didn’t quite start.” Yeah, that’s right. Interviewer: “So, to look back on it now, after all this time you spent in the service, what do you think you’ve really taken out of that or how did that affect you?” Yeah. You know, I thought about that when I was getting ready to be finished–– before I retired. You know, it was a unique experience and I know that we need people to do that. You look back like, “Did you influence anybody” and “yes” and “no” and “I’m sure you did.” But, that’s what people always ask. They say, “Would you do it again?” And I am like, I would probably do the first 18 years. And then if I probably wouldn’t have gone back into the field, maybe just stayed at headquarters after that because that last couple of years really took a toll as it turned out. But, yeah. I don’t know if I really answered your question on that one. (1:22:25). Interviewer: “Yeah. Well, that’s a very open-ended question, people say all sorts of stuff. The thing is, this was your career. So, it’s not like you had this two-years out of your life that marks you in this way and then you go on, you know? That’s been your adult life.” Yeah. It was interesting when I was coming upon retirement just thinking about [how] now my time is my own, you know? Every weekend, if I want to do something, I get it. One thing I found interesting is having to pick clothes to wear. I didn’t have to do that. I had the same kind of thing to wear all of the time. And I remember the months up to my retirement, going and buying different things of clothes–– regular clothes. Interviewer: “All right. Well, you’ve done a good job for us. So, thank you very much for coming in and sharing your story today.” Oh, thank you. (1:23:23). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HaywoodB2299V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Haywood, Breyound Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04 Title A name given to the resource Haywood, Breyound (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Breyound Haywood was born on February 28, 1973 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Haywood graduated high school in 1991 and enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1992. In January of 1993, he was flown to Marine Boot Camp for three months in San Diego, California. He then moved onto rifle training and field exercises at Camp Pendleton, California. After attending Marine Combat Training and then Infantry School back at Camp Pendleton, Haywood was assigned to a Zodiac Assault Company in the 1st Battalion, 4th Regiment, 1st Marine Division. On his first deployment, Haywood was redirected into a detached Special Operation Capable Platoon and was shipped around the Pacific and Middle East on the USS Tripoli and USS Tarawa for six months. His Company was also deployed to Somalia and stopped at various Middle Eastern ports as well as British Hong-Kong. He ended up staying in the Corps for longer than his tour, so he was assigned to the mail department in early 1995. On his second deployment, Haywood was sent to the Philippines as well as other stops in Africa, the Middle East, Persian Gulf, and Asia. After that, Haywood decided to leave the Corps, was discharged in March of 1997 in California, and joined the California Army National Guard. In 1998, he married and later enlisted in the Army Infantry out of Fort Irwin, California. On active duty, he was assigned to the 11th Armored Cavalry Unit, Supply and Transportation Platoon based out of Fort Irwin before being transferred to the Orderly Room, administrating the platoon. He was then deployed to Iraq and Kuwait, stationed at Camp Spiker with his Transportation Platoon and ran supply routes throughout Iraq. After five months on active duty, Haywood was allowed to return to the United States in 2004 and was discharged from the Army at Fort Irwin. He then returned to Michigan where he resumed his work for Johnson Controls and joined the Michigan Army National Guard. He later applied for a full-time position within the Active Guard Reserve, working out of Wyoming, Michigan, in the 126th Armored Battalion. With this Battalion, Haywood was again deployed to Iraq and Kuwait in a staff position. In 2008, he and his unit returned to the United States where he stayed with the Michigan National Guard until his retirement in December of 2016, totaling twenty-three years with the Guard. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d9a026c138b82cb0b23a7397cb7edd1d.jpg ae8a7d32c2f12df056f0e565f7bffdde Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Regional Historical Collection. F479 .T42 1904 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0170 Title A name given to the resource How George Rogers Clark Won the Northwest and Other Essays in Western History Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hazenplug, Frank (Designer) Description An account of the resource Binding of How George Rogers Clark Won the Northwest and Other Essays in Western History, by Reuben Gold Thwaites, published by A.C. McClurg & Co., 1904. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1904 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee5b97e5542605a72ef368a23f4ba705.jpg 9115d641e85f239f807780118935c964 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. PS3531.E255 P56 1897 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0445 Title A name given to the resource Pippins and Cheese Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hazenplug, Frank (Designer) Description An account of the resource Binding of Pippins and Cheese: Being the Relation of How a Number of Persons Ate a Number of Dinners at Various Times and Places, by Elia W. Peattie, published by Way and Williams, 1897. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1897 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7cb3b494022c81d79fb578c0522d9879.pdf 274424eb40c72b6844ff644586b7b3b6 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Father Donald J. Headley Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/21/2012 Biography and Description Fr. Donald Headley was first ordained as a Catholic priest in 1958 and is resident priest at the St. Mary’s of the Woods Faith Community in Chicago. He recalls meeting with Saul Alinsky and working with Rev. Jack Eagan, the founder of urban Catholic activism. He also recalls a great deal about the Puerto Rican community in La Clark that grew up through the 1950s. Fr. Headley’s work in Chicago also prompted him to spend 13 years working with the poor in the San Miguelito Mission in Panama during the late 1960s and 1970s. The mission was an experimental parish, based on the practice of liberation theology, organized by the Archdiocese of Chicago in 1962. By 1980, when the project was terminated by the Archidiocese amidst controversy involving questions of theology and liturgy, the mission had assumed control over 53 parishes and base communities. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Father Dan Headley, if you can tell me your name, and -- DONALD HEADLEY: Yeah, sure. JJ: -- when you were born, and where. DH: Okay. I was born in Chicago on July 11, 1932. My name is Don Headley, and I’m not Irish. I am English and American Indian -- Pequot, actually -- and I am Kashub and Polish on my mother’s side. My mom’s family came over in 1903. She wasn’t born yet. And my dad came -- moved up from around Pontiac, and he fell in love with my mother, and that’s how I came into existence, so (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: Oh, Pontiac, Michigan, over by Detroit. DH: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Okay. And so, you were born in the -- DH: In Chicago. JJ: And you grew up where? Where did you grow up? DH: I grew up -- I was on the Southeast Side of Chicago, near Wentworth [00:01:00] Avenue, which is Clark Street on the North Side, but I don’t remember that very much. I was too small, and -- but I actually grew up just a block south of Garfield Boulevard. Fifty-sixth Street, actually, in Winchester, where we lived in a building that my grandfather and grandmother, who were Kashub and Polish respectively, owned. So, we were on the first floor. JJ: So, was that a Polish community then, or --? 1 �DH: No. No, it was just a regular community. JJ: (inaudible). DH: [It was?] St. Basil Parish. JJ: St. Basil, okay. DH: Yeah. Now, it’s pretty much just a clinic, a health clinic. The church was torn down, and other things were changed there, but it’s right down the block from Visitation, where a lot of the people who used to be on 63rd Street -- Puerto Ricans -- still live. [Riveras?], for instance. [Cesar?] Rivera’s family is still there, I think, [00:02:00] on -- near Garfield Boulevard, in Halsted Street, actually. I was between Damen and Ashland Avenue, actually. That’s where I was raised. JJ: Now, you mentioned [La Sesenta y Tres?], 63rd Street. There was a community there at that time? DH: Where? I’m sorry. JJ: Puerto Rican -- Sixty-third Street or -- DH: Oh, 63rd. Well, I don’t think there was much of a community [right at that?] time, of Puerto Ricans, anyway. That was like -- I was there between 1932 -- JJ: Oh, ’32. (inaudible) DH: -- and nine-- they weren’t there yet. Actually, the Puerto Ricans came in because of a deal between President Roosevelt and Muñoz Marín. Any Puerto Rican that came over meant 10 dollars in the budget for Puerto Rico to do urbanization programs and stuff like that, so there was this big -- they needed people to work in the Chrysler plant, for instance, where people were building tanks for the Second World War. That’s when the Puerto Ricans really had their great influx. 2 �JJ: The Chrysler plant in [00:03:00] Detroit or --? DH: No, in Chicago. JJ: In Chicago, okay. DH: Right. JJ: And what area was it? DH: I think that was around Western Avenue somewhere. I’m not sure where -- JJ: But on the South Side? DH: -- but near the Midway Airport. JJ: [Midway?]. DH: That time, Midway was the only airport in the city. There was no O’Hare. JJ: Right. Okay, there was no O’Hare. DH: But the Puerto Ricans were living pretty much, at that time, during that particular war period -- Leo was ordained -- Father Leo Mahon -- JJ: You said the ’40s? You’re talking about in the ’40s? DH: Father Leo Mahon was ordained in 1951, and he was a Holy Cross Parish -- he went there so that he could work with the Afro-American community, and, all of a sudden, Puerto Ricans came into the rectory and said to him, “We are not recognized in this city, and -- what do we do? We don’t know anything about our religion. We don’t know anything about what we’re doing here. We have no concept of what we’re supposed to be doing.” And so, Leo went downtown to talk to the cardinal. The cardinal said, [00:04:00] “Well, do something.” JJ: Which cardinal at that time? DH: Cardinal Stritch at that time. 3 �JJ: Stritch, okay. DH: And he said, “Well, do something. It’s okay. We have to take care of all the people.” I don’t think he knew what he was saying, but Leo then got promoted into what was eventually called the Cardinal’s Committee for Spanish Speaking, and it was -- thank God it was not in the vicar general’s office for the archdiocese, nor in the chancellor’s office for the archdiocese -- JJ: Why do you say -- why do you --? DH: -- but it was backed by Catholic Charities. JJ: But why do you say that? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: Well, because those people were -- pretty much, they worked on manipulation of power, and Catholic Charities was a little different item with Cooke at that time, who was the -- Vince Cooke was the head of it, and he raised funds for it. He was a tremendous businessman beside being a great priest -- Monsignor Cooke, Vincent Cooke -- and he had all kinds of staff there, and he made Leo part of his staff. [00:05:00] So, Leo was the executive director. Gilbert Carroll was sort of liaison between Leo and Catholic Charities. And Leo began to look for ways in which he could actually affect the Puerto Rican community, and he said, “Well, what about community organization? How is that possible? [Do we have to?] organize as a community? You have leaders, don’t you?” He said, “Oh, yeah. We have leadership, but they don’t know what to do,” which was normal. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: Yeah. They needed somebody to help. So, he went to Saul Alinsky, and Saul Alinsky was -- at that time, he had the -- I’m sorry. 4 �JJ: That’s okay. DH: Saul Alinsky had the -- course, his organization. So, he lent two people to us. Nick von Hoffman was one of the people, who is now a writer and who’s retired. He wrote for the Washington Post after he left Saul Alinsky’s organization. And Lester Hunt, who also, before, [00:06:00] I think, he was here, or just after he was here -- he was here in Chicago, working with the Puerto -- I’m not sure exactly when that happened, but he lives, now, in Chicago, Lester does, and he became a high school teacher eventually. If you want to -- it might be a good idea to talk to him. He’s a really great guy, and he lives on Randolph Street, East Randolph Street. But these people helped to form people like Juan Sosa, [Calvino?] (inaudible), José Valentín, [Julio Vides?], all these people that eventually -- Cesar Rivera, the Chevere brothers. All these people were together in this -- [where that?] really began on the Southeast Side, you know, around 63rd Street and near the parish where Father Leo was. But Leo then, eventually, took up an office. He had one office that was right on Wacker Drive, and then they moved to the [corner of?] what was the -- 1300 Wabash, [00:07:00] which was the big place, which we occupied for a while. We even put murals in there for the [Cursillo?], for the chapel, for the Cursillo, and, on the first -- primer alto, the first floor, we had other things redolent of what was the -- representative of what was the immigration flux into Chicago, not only Puerto Rican, but -- at that time, there were Mexican as well and other communities as well. Pretty much -- you know, when I think of my own passage, I was circumstantial because I used to take 5 �people down from St. Patrick’s, where I -- was my first particular assignment as an associate, and -JJ: St. Patrick’s (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: St. Patrick’s on Adams and Des Plaines. JJ: [Adams and?] -- okay. DH: And what I found there was a community that was pretty much broken people. [There were?] pimps, prostitutes, drug addicts. There were [00:08:00] drunkards, you know, but -- alcoholics, actually, and it was Skid Row, and I was sent there because, supposedly, I was being punished because I wouldn’t do something for some professor in the seminary. I guess that was why they sent me there. After five years, though, after working there for five years, they wanted me to go teach history at Quigley, and I was going to go to Quigley, when they told me that, well, Leo was going to Panama, and they wanted me to take over the Hispanic office in Chicago, which was the Cardinal’s Committee for the Spanish Speaking. That time, we were organizing the community. So, it was pretty much circumstantial, the way I got involved in all this. That’s what happens in life, you know. You sort of plan for certain things, and it goes in another direction, which is fine. I’ve been very happy in what I do. But, while I was at St. Pat’s, my acquaintance with people was really wonderful and spectacular. I learned more in the [00:09:00] five years that I was at St. Patrick’s than I had learned in twelve years in seminary [presence?], I think. The people taught me a lot, and that people who were on the edge could also put people who cared and loved and who had a lot 6 �of hope -- Puerto Ricans that were coming in, living at the [West Hotel?] -- it was -- horrible situation. JJ: The West Hotel? DH: West Hotel was -- there’s now a hotel on Madison Street, a big, you know, motor hotel. JJ: Right there on Madison? DH: Right there on Madison. Well, that -- JJ: And Des Plaines? DH: -- used to be the West Hotel, which was -- JJ: Madison and Des Plaines there? DH: -- hot and cold, [running roaches?]. That was what it was, and these people had to live in that situation. There was a women there who kept cats, and, when she died, the people went into her room to [find out?] -- she must have a lot of money, and what they found were little packages filled with cat poo, you know. That’s what they found in there. So, it’s pretty awful [in many ways?]. But the place was terrifying, and yet, these people were holding their families together and doing marvelous things with them, and they [00:10:00] would come to Eucharist on a Sunday, and they would participate in spite of the fact it was in Latin, you know, and maybe a homily in Spanish. I would try to fight my way through it. But then, besides that, I began to (inaudible) people coming together in meetings and groups, and I tried to find out where something was going on that would get people involved, get people talking to one another. And so, some of the Mexicans, some of the Puerto Ricans that were pretty much together, they 7 �came together. We would go, on one night, to what was the office at 13th and Wabash, and, at 13th and Wabash, we participated in what was the formation [meetings?], which was how to really run a dialogue in your community. How do you really sit down with neighbors and get them to really talk to one another? Now, I had some acquaintance with Spanish. I was just beginning to really use the language pretty well. [00:11:00] When I was helping out over summer, for instance, with Leo’s office, ’cause I was interested in that even then, in 1956 and ’57 -- ’56, I think, was when the first Puerto Rican parade happened. They keep talking here about it starting in the ’60s. It never did. The first night was (inaudible). JJ: [I think it was?] ’53. I saw a -- DH: [It was really?], yeah. JJ: -- photo of that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: Right, yeah. It was tremendous, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). DH: Right, (inaudible). That was where it was, and -- JJ: (inaudible). DH: -- it was just a marvelous thing, and I was involved in that, you know. I was there, and I was calling people, and talking to them on the phone, and making sure that they got their people out in the Caballeros de San Juan, which already existed, and all the Concilio de los Caballeros San Juan were involved in that thing. So, this is where I was, and I didn’t know that I was going to eventually be involved in all of this. 8 �JJ: But they were at 13th and Wabash, the Caballeros? DH: They were at 13th and Wabash. Well, the office was [00:12:00] actually, at that time, on Wacker Drive. That’s where I was making the phone calls from. JJ: By 1953, there were some Caballeros at -- DH: There Were Caballeros around somewhere, yeah. JJ: Somewhere. DH: I’m not sure where they were. Probably council number one, two, and three. JJ: [What’s this?] -- one, two -- DH: Two was like San José, St. Joseph’s, with the two Spaniard priests that were there, Spanish priests that were there. JJ: St. Joseph’s was on the West Side? DH: And council three was being founded at that time with the help of Kathrein, John Kathrein -- JJ: [Father Kathrein?]. DH: -- with the Redemptorists. Wonderful old guy, like 112 years old at the time, and he -- learning Spanish for the first time in his life in -- the age of 70, I think, he learned Spanish. He’s a great guy. But that was in the ’50s, but I’m talking about a time like -- closer to 1968. I was ordained in 1958, and that was when I went to St. Patrick’s, and that’s where I began, really, to get involved and to take people to meetings at the center, which, at that time, ’58, [00:13:00] ’60, or -- [it was?] ’59, ’60. I was already at the Cardinal’s Committee for Spanish Speaking on Wabash Avenue, 1300 Wabash. So, this was a really fascinating sort of meeting because I met, there, [Don Sierra?], who eventually became a deacon in 9 �the church here in Chicago, and, eventually, Jesús Rodríguez. Actually, the person that probably taught me most Spanish in the world was [Chuy?] Rodríguez. He was a really conflictive sort of person. He had abandoned his family for a while, living with another woman, and he had children with that woman as well. Wonderful girl. She was a great woman. Both his wives at different times were just wonderful people, but he went back to his first wife and was working with his family. He was doing his best he could. Eventually, though, he had a terrible nervous breakdown. He had had a terrible youth, where his father or grandfather would make him [00:14:00] kneel on stones and pray the rosary, and the sense of religiosity [he had?] -- so, listening to us, you know, priests that were with this whole business of the council that was gonna begin, the Second Vatican Council -- all of a sudden, he got a different image of church. Church became, for him, not so much a religious item, but an item for people’s faith so that they would be able to take steps into their own future and really form their own culture, their own traditions, their own history, and the basis of that -- live what Paul taught us about in his Letter to the Galatians, which is spectacular. He says, “Don’t you understand what the gospel is really all about? The good news of Jesus Christ. It’s that all of us, together, equally -- equally -share the life of the risen Christ. Men and women, Jews and Greeks, slaves and free.” What that means in what is evangelization is that you have to lose all sexism, all racism, and all economic [00:15:00] privilege. Now, not even the Roman Catholic Church has done that [always?]. Look at the conquests, or look at some of the -- our Protestant brothers and sisters who listen to the word, but 10 �I’m afraid, you know, they really treat women poorly, and so do we. I mean, we still have not ordained a woman in the Roman Catholic Church, which is kinds weird, I think. And, also, with racial problems, we’ve had difficulties, as everyone else has had too, and, with regard to economic privilege, well, we all like to have a dollar in our pockets, you know? And that’s the problem. If those are the things that really run our lives, then we are in real trouble. So, the idea is the gospel [is one?] -- when Gregory the Great first, in Rome, was trying to send missionaries to England, by the way, [who were my?] ancestors -- at that time, my ancestors -- not like the Maya. The Maya were building huge pyramids at that time, in that particular century, which was, like, the end of the sixth and the beginning of the seventh century. [00:16:00] He was sending missionaries there, and he said, “Don’t you dare transfer what is Roman culture there. They have their own culture. Honor that culture, but take the gospel and put it into that culture, so, then, the culture will lose its sexism, its racism, and its economic privilege.” And we’re all called by Paul, I think, in his letter [as though?] -- First Letter to the Corinthians, for instance, tells us that the real human being -- human being Adam, which is not a individual at all. He’s the whole human race. “We don’t know how to be human,” he says. It’s Jesus Christ who shows us how to be human, ’cause -- why? ’Cause he’s totally related to God and totally related to one of us. So, the idea was, coming out of the council, the Second Vatican Council, was to help people actually become totally human, to understand that [insertion?] into Christ at baptism, for instance, for the Catholics, is not a separation from the rest of the world, but it’s the way Christ relates to the rest of 11 �the world -- [00:17:00] with total justice, total love, and total compassion. So, I mean, this is the way our office was being organized. We were taking people from different communities, ethnic communities. We had to understand how this was going to work out in a whole archdiocese of Chicago sort of way. And so, by the time I got into the office, Leo went to Panama to found basic Christian community there, transformed all of Latin America with that, and we were doing the same thing in Chicago with these small meetings -JJ: It spread to other areas in Latin America? DH: Right. To get people involved in what was life, not so much -- they didn’t have to be involved so much in the [sacristy?] of the churches. That wasn’t what our interest was, but to get people to really transform the whole community in which they were living. In other words, to be present to that community. Whether they were young, whether they were old, whether they were men, whether they were women, this is what they had to really be involved in. [00:18:00] So, we tried to base their theology on that, so that wouldn’t be a religion-based theology. In other words, go back to the past. Cling to the columns of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, and then you would be fine. No, it was an item of how do we create a church now, today, that’s -- with people of faith who are not afraid of the future and who will actually form their lives? All of these things have to work in the circumstances of people’s lives. By the time I took over that office, we already had in process -- we had people meeting on a Monday night and talking about scripture, and theology, and pastoral ways of acting with other people in the community. How do we get people to become what they’re supposed to 12 �become in the world? How do we get them to live their marriages totally, completely, with total love shared between two people, raising their [00:19:00] family with great appreciation and hope for their children, making sure that all their children are well educated and have an opportunity to do something with their lives in the future, not afraid of taking a step into that future, who will not lose, maybe, their whole Latino culture and language, but will also learn the languages that they need here? You know, people have to be bilingual, actually, here, and they are. The only ones that aren’t bilingual are the gringos, you know? But the Latinos certainly are. You know, even the Mexican people in my classes today are all people who are totally bilingual, and they have their kids on the street who are becoming -- they’re not so much of the Latino culture. They’re more of the McDonald culture, you know? “Let’s go get a Big Mac.” That sort of thing. But the people are changing all the time, and they’re in multiethnic settings. So, in other words, the church cannot be a [00:20:00] one-ethnicity sort of reality. It’s got to be a reality that’s going to offer itself to make the changes necessary for people today to tomorrow. This is what it has to be. And so, this is pretty much what we were working on. Course, other people had other approaches to that. José, you had the groups of young people on Division Street and North Avenue that were affecting the young people, and getting them together, and making them talk to one another. [As yet?], when you were there, the drug problem did not really hit everybody. There was some heroin in place, but crack and the other stuff, cocaine, the shoot-ups that people had to go through with sharing needles and bringing AIDS into their family and themselves, 13 �all those things did not exist yet. That didn’t happen until after I left in ’68. That pretty much was just [00:21:00] beginning at that time. It was very disturbing and very horrible, what happened to the communities after that, but that’s where the world is today, and how do we affect that kind of world? That’s another problem. But, at that particular time, we did not have that particular difficulty. I’m sorry. JJ: Going back to Jesús Rodríguez and the -- DH: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. JJ: -- Second Vatican Council -- so, you were -- DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: -- talking about that during that time. It was that period. DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: So, how did that impact him? [I mean, what did he say?]? DH: Well, José -- JJ: What was his role? What was his role in the church? DH: His role in the church was actually -- everybody wanted to be like him, like Jesús, like Chuy, because Chuy was one great, great speaker. He could move an audience, you know. Talk about somebody that [was able to?] move a mountain from one place to another and throw it into the ocean, like Jesus says in that [pretty good parable?]. That’s what Jesús, Chuy, could do. [00:22:00] Tremendous preacher at the Cursillos. He taught me how to preach. He taught me how to do everything, actually. I (inaudible) how to use the language. It was just absolutely spectacular. [Juan Cierro?] is another one. They were really great people, and you had others that had other skills, of course, like Juan Sosa 14 �had a great skill for getting people to talk to each other, and Calvino (inaudible), who had a sense of -- still has today a sense of service for people that’s absolutely excellent. José Valentín, who [they all?] accused of being [council went crazy?], he -- but he was the guy that -- he, with Julio Vides, eventually organized the youth groups around baseball, really good baseball. They had great leagues going on here. JJ: (inaudible). DH: [José?]. All those things ran -- we ran retreats in Cursillos and everything else. Jesús was the master preacher at the Cursillo, and, besides that, when Leo went to [00:23:00] Panama, we let Jesús go a couple of times over summer when we weren’t doing any Cursillos. He would go there and talk to the people there. Of course, when they listened to him speak in Panama, they said, “Oh, my God. We want to be like him,” you know? And this was a great thing. It was like the nuns that went to Panama too. We had three Maryknoll nuns that went there, and all the women wanted to be like the nuns ’cause they were absolutely -- I mean, they were absolutely wonderful with people, and all the guys wanted their wives to be like the nuns too, you know? ’Cause they were just so open, and alive, and filled with hope, and this is the thing that I think we really have to remember. No matter where you are in a parish or in a parish setting for a church, you’re not trying to get people to hang out in the sacristy, or in the building, or -- that’s not what you’re doing. Eucharist is something for us that is meant to send people out the door. The most important thing in the church is the exit [00:24:00] sign, you know? You’re supposed to be able to go out the door 15 �and go do something. If you’re not gonna do something, why are you here? Don’t come in here and tell me that you’re here because God’s gonna give you something. God doesn’t give us a lot of stuff. God’s already given us the gift of life, and our job is to turn it into the task of grace. We’re supposed to go out and share it with the people around us. So, I think this sort of thing -- Jesús got that - Chuy Rodríguez, for instance, got that idea. He also absorbed other people into his group. Like, Chuy García was a Mexican kid. He came in to eventually end up in Panama, eventually got exiled by the government at that time back to Mexico, and I don’t know where he ended up. I don’t know where he is. We never saw him again, but I know he was safe, but that’s not the point. Why did they do this? Because they were against us at that particular time in Panama. Panama became a conflictive place, but that was normal, you know. You expected [00:25:00] that to happen. JJ: I mean, what was going on in Panama? I mean, [I don’t?] -- DH: Well, eventually, in Panama, in -- I went there in 1968. About a little while after I got there, they had elections, and the president that won was eventually -- they had a coup against him. Arnulfo Arias was the president at that time, and he was elected, and then they kicked his butt out of there, and he was a guy that had really transformed Panama. He developed a social security system, a system of hospitals for social security. He developed labor unions. He had developed [at?] different times [when he was?] president, and, every time he was president, someone threw him out. The army came in and threw him out. So, they threw him out on October 12, 1968, and we, in our communities in San Miguelito in 16 �Panama -- our people organized and did a march, and we eventually told the -they [already had?] machine guns in the street against us, [00:26:00] but they did not kill us. They let us go where we were going. We were going from one parish at that time, which was [Cristo El Redentor?], to Cristo Hijo del Hombre. It was at the other end of the community. We’re just gonna march there, and we were gonna do that, and we would sing the national anthem of Panama, and that was the end of it. But they said, “Well, what do you want?” Torrijos, who was the guy in charge at that particular moment -- they called Leo and said, “What do you guys want? What do you think this is? You have no right to do this.” He said, “Oh, yes, we do. We’re not doing it. The people are doing it,” you know, and people were ready to do it. This was after several years of real organization. We had several parishes, and people were really organized to do (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: When you started, there were no parishes, or --? DH: Well, we went there. There were no -- there was one big parish called San Miguelito, but people were just coming into the area at that time. That was one thing. As soon as people come into an area, you have to be there, and that’s what we learned in Panama. You had to be there right away. I eventually ended up in Panama because [00:27:00] I couldn’t work with Cody, but before that -Cardinal Cody -- but I worked with [Meyer?] really well here while we were organizing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JJ: Why couldn’t you work with Cody? DH: Pardon? 17 �JJ: Why couldn’t you work with Cody? DH: Well, he just never accepted what we were doing. He was so intent on doing what the mayor wanted, who was one of the Daleys, [a father for?] Richard Daley -- Richard J. Daley at that time. It was not the M. Daley of the present, but he -for instance, the Puerto Rican -- the whole business of the riots that happened here 40 years ago -- a little bit more than 40 years now. Those riots were really partially provoked by the police, and the response by the young people’s community especially was terrific. I was so proud of -- JJ: It was terrific, you said? DH: Oh, I thought it was terrific, and, I mean, I was on top of a police car on Division Street, and they were gonna burn the [00:28:00] police car, and I said, “Don’t do it ’cause the guys that are egging you on are cops.” I knew the cops from Monroe Street District when I was at St. Pat’s. And they burned the car anyway, of course. Of course, I jumped off the damn car. But then, all the police were in the gangways in the neighborhood on Division Street. They came out. They’d beat up everybody on the street, you know, and we were on the street for three days, [the Hermanos en la Familia de Dios?], which was the group of people who were organizing for lay ministry in the church. Caballeros de San Juan were not always that. They were pretty much a community organization at that time. But the Hermanos, they were saying, “We want to learn something about our religion.” And so, they learned stuff on their religion through dialogue and discussion, and that’s the way they taught it to the people in their parishes. And then, at the end of each series of discussions, they would have a Cursillo, which 18 �was a retreat. Sort of tied things together. And that’s the way things were organized out of the [00:29:00] office, and I would meet with them on Monday night. We would have discussion on scripture or whatever. On Wednesday night, we’d go visit a particular parish area, and on Thursday or Friday following that Wednesday, I would go and visit the pastor there, and I would say to the pastor -- this was during Meyer’s time. Cody sort of put an end to this, and that’s why I couldn’t work with him, because we had to keep organizing people. JJ: So, he put an end to the organizing, or --? DH: What he did wasn’t in accord with what we were doing, going in and visiting the pastors afterward. Meyer backed me with the pastors, but Meyer died of a tumor in the brain. So, when he died, Cody came in. It was over, pretty much, but, when he was there, he really supported everything we were doing, and I would go in and talk to the pastor. I said, “You know, you have a lot of [Latinos here.” Pastor said?], “Well, we don’t have any Latinos here.” “Oh, really? Well, this is a list --” JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: Yeah, pastors. Some of the pastors would say that. JJ: Some of the pastors. DH: I would say, “Well, this is a list of the people in your parish who are Latinos, [00:30:00] and they are going to have a Spanish Mass after July, when a new priest will come in here and be your associate, and he will do a Spanish Mass, and he knows a lot about the culture because we’re training him now.” We trained him, usually, at Dominican University for the language, and we had 19 �people coming in from Latin America and from Puerto Rico, from all over, to really train them culturally [to understand that?] -JJ: Who paid for these people to -- DH: Oh, the archdiocese. JJ: [Oh, they did?]? DH: Catholic Charities. JJ: Oh, [they did pay?]? DH: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah. JJ: For them to come from Puerto Rico and Latin America? DH: Oh, yes. Definitely. Yeah. All kinds of wonderful people came in, and I had them coming in all the time. JJ: So, the archdiocese was supporting it, but there was some resistance? DH: Right. Well, there was probably some resistance, and, when Cody came in, he just stopped it all. But what was really bad was the fact that he stopped this business of really changing the parish structure so that the pastor would have to recognize [people that were?] -- we would invite the -- I wasn’t abusive to the pastors. I would just say that, “You know, you are welcome [00:31:00] [in any of? these homes. Next Tuesday night, one of the Hermanos is gonna be there, and they’re gonna have a discussion on scripture and on what it is to be a parish so they can support the parish and be with you in the parish, and you’re welcome to go to that home and have a cup of tea with them, (Spanish) [00:31:18].” We said, “You can do that if you want to, so go and do this, you know. You’re welcome to do it.” At the same time, there’s all kinds of other things happening in 20 �the community, I think. You had your guys, the Young Lords. They were organizing, and they were doing all kinds of wonderful -- I think they were doing wonderful things, and -JJ: (inaudible). DH: No, I think so because they were getting young people organized. We had another aspect of that. [We’re out on the?] baseball games and the retreats that we had at [Liberty Bell?]. We had a whole series. We had Liberty Bell retreats every single summer. JJ: [Who was?] (inaudible)? DH: There was a center there that we could use. It was not a [00:32:00] luxurious place, but it was a good place, and we had room for people, and we would have - Las Hijas de María would go out, and then we would have the kids go out, the young boys go out, the guys go out for the different levels of baseball. Everybody would have a retreat every single summer, and we would run a couple of meetings for older people out there. JJ: You mean each group, each parish? DH: They would come from the parishes, but the kids were -- JJ: [And the councils?] (inaudible) -- DH: The kids were organized as baseball, so they crossed parish lines ’cause they built their teams, you know. They wanted people who could hit and people who could pitch. That’s what they wanted. So, they would have cross-parish stuff, and, in a certain sense, what we were doing was -- we weren’t building just the parishes. We were building the archdiocese of Chicago with regard to Latinos, 21 �and this is what we wanted to do. We wanted to be aware of one another. So, this was kind of [00:33:00] important, really important at that time. That was pretty much stopped when Cody came in. And so, people were struggling with stuff, and I was just disappointed and discouraged, and I decided, well, maybe I can do some good in Panama, so I asked Leo if they needed something, and he said, “Oh, yeah. We need somebody for scripture and for formation here, and you can also be in charge of one of the parishes. That would be fine. You know, we need somebody.” So, he asked for me, and I asked to go, so that was the way it was. But it was good, and things changed then. JJ: You mentioned there was a difference between the Caballeros [as an?] organization and the Hermanos. DH: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). DH: Well, some of the members of the Caballeros came in. You know, people like [Antonio Villalobos?], who was from council number eight. We had people like -well, you had other people from other [ones of?] the councils would come in, and they would say, “You know, [00:34:00] our wives go to church, but we don’t know anything about our religion. What is it all about? Can we talk about that?” This was way early, when Leo was still in charge of the office -- JJ: (inaudible). DH: -- before he went to Panama in 1963. He left for Panama in 1963. He got there in February of 1963, but he was here from nineteen fifty-- like, two, three, four, until 1962 and pretty much into 1963. So, at that time, you know, this is where 22 �they came. The Caballeros de San Juan would come down for meetings, and some of these guys took Leo aside, said, “We need some help.” So, people like [Juan Sierra?] helped with that. So did Chuy Rodríguez, tremendously so, and, you know, all these people who were involved in the Hermanos Cheos from Puerto Rico, they were the heart of the whole matter. The Hermanos Cheos were one of the finest groups in all of Puerto Rico. They really saved the islands -- for whatever’s left of the Catholic Church there, [00:35:00] they’re the ones that saved it. [They were?] -JJ: I heard about them. So, what were they? I mean -- DH: The Hermanos Cheos? JJ: Yeah, [I’ve heard about them?]. DH: Well, they were a group of guys, lay people. When the priest sort of left and went back to Spain -- a lot of them left. They went back to Spain, where they came from, and there weren’t that many Puerto Rican priests around. And so, these guys got together and said, “We have to save this island for our culture, and our Puerto Rican heritage, and our church, our religion, and all the [stuff?] that we are,” because what happened was the United States government, the president at that time, sent all kinds of missionaries from the Protestant groups into Puerto Rico to break up the culture and the community and take away what people were as Catholics. They didn’t want people to be Catholic. So, they sent that here. [Actually what happened?]. This was in the nineteenth century when the -- JJ: These were sent from -- DH: -- war with Spain was over, and that’s what happened. 23 �JJ: Sent from the United States after the war against Spain? DH: After the war with Spain, yeah. JJ: [00:36:00] (inaudible). DH: After the war with Spain, where they took over the island. And so, Puerto Rico’s very small. You know, it’s built like an ice cream cone, actually. It’s got a very small base and a very large top, and Aibonito’s at the very top of it, but that’s [what it is?], you know, and it’s very small, but it’s the gate to the Antilles. It’s the gate of everything. It’s out there, in the Atlantic Ocean, in the Caribbean, and it’s really -- that’s why the United States wanted [the thing?], and they put their naval bases there and everything. So, it was really kind of an important island for the United States, but it was also important for the people that lived there, and these guys were trying to save what was their faith and their religion. So, people like Jesús Rodríguez and Juan Sierra descended from that group that we call the Hermanos Cheos. They went through the island, you know, praying the rosary, and doing meditations on the rosary, and all these kinds of stuff, really invoking Mary more [00:37:00] than anything else, and they went from place to place, town to town. They established things, like people have the great visits of Christmastime, when they go from town to town with music. JJ: Las Parrandas. DJ: Las Parrandas, yeah. Those are absolutely marvelous things from the culture, and it’s much richer than just saying they’re Catholic. It’s a whole cultural reality that is so beautiful and so wonderful, and watching people do it, it’s just spectacular. It’s just like -- or waking up on the beach in the Fiesta of San Juan 24 �or on Tres Reyes, [Para los Reyes?]. All that stuff is really cultural, and it may have come from the Spaniards, but it’s more than just Spanish. It’s become a cultural inheritance, and this is where people are. JJ: And so, when the development of the Caballeros -- DH: Yeah. JJ: Where did the idea come from? I see a little bit came from [00:38:00] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- DH: It came, pretty much, from Saul Alinsky’s group. JJ: Oh, can you explain that? DH: Pretty much from that. In other words, you have to organize, and you have to develop leadership. In other words, there is always an outside agitator. So, Leo was kind of like the outside agitator, you know, and so was Nick von Hoffman. So was Lester Hunt. But, eventually, the leadership arose in the Puerto Rican community with Juan Sosa, with Calvino (inaudible), with Cesar Rivera, all those people who took on leadership in the different councils. JJ: [How?] -- DH: I think there eventually were 13 councils. JJ: So, did the Cardinal’s Committee reach out to them, or did they reach out? DH: Right -- no. Well, both. Both ways. It was a two-way street, and people had their meetings in their own area. They had to have a chaplain with them. [If they?] had a chaplain, they were very much organized on the basis of the parish in which they were living. Pretty much that. And so -- JJ: They had to have a -- 25 �DH: [00:39:00] Yeah. JJ: -- chaplain to -- DH: Right. JJ: -- be accepted. DH: Right. Right. JJ: I mean -- DH: They were accepted in the parish, yeah. JJ: They were accepted [in the parish?]. DH: Oh, definitely, yeah. But the whole business of lay ministry developed out of these guys. JJ: [Did the?] (inaudible)? DH: Well, eventually, the diaconate came out of it. There were a lot of guys ready for the diaconate when I left for Panama. I asked Cody -- JJ: What does that mean? DH: -- if I could have those guys ordained. JJ: I don’t understand that. What does that mean? How does that --? DH: Oh, okay. Sure. Yeah. Well, lay ministry is one thing. That means laypeople -men, women -- they are in charge of different ministries in a parish, different ways of approaching people, working with them, helping them, being a blessing for them, taking care of the catechesis -- the catechetics that you have to teach children for their participation in sacraments or in life of the parish, the organization of young people. There should be some adults involved in that, as well as the young people organizing things themselves. So, you have all these 26 �different ministries that appear. When I was at [00:40:00] Mercy, for instance, for 20 years after I came back from Panama, we developed -- there must be 3,000 ministers there of different levels of doing things, and working with life, and doing retreats, and, by the time I was three years in the parish, I never gave a retreat at Our Lady of Mercy, but the people gave the retreats. I would just give an introduction to the retreat, and they were in charge of the whole thing. They did all the training for baptism for parishes -- for families. They trained the couples who were -- so that they could train their children for first Communions. The confirmation was built out of not so much the eighth grade, but out of going into high school and saying, “I want this particular reality because it’s the end of my baptismal process, and I want to be like my parents. I want to be what they are. I want to be like what my godparents are. I want to be like that.” So, okay. Fine, kid. Then, sign up. So, we began with [00:41:00] 50 people, 50 kids from high school. We ended up, now, with 250 there every year, 250 kids who become confirmed and who have to choose a ministry once they are confirmed. They have a two-year course with three courses every year. First course is on Saturdays at one o’clock in the afternoon, maybe. I’m not sure when they’re doing it now. I think that’s when they do it. I’m out of the parish, so I don’t know. And then, the second year of the course is for kids that are, like, 16, who can work on weekends, so they have a Friday night class. It’s ’cause they can work on the weekend to help their family a little bit. That’s the second year. Three courses that year as well. So, it’s a really serious project, and it really takes account into what people are and what they want to do in their life. You know, 27 �where they want to go, how they want to -- we would want them to stay in school, for instance. We would want them to work in the community with other young people, really share things with them. [00:42:00] That’s what we would want. That’s what Mercy -- but this is pretty basically the way we approached things in Panama and basically the way we approached things out of the Cardinal’s Committee [when we were?] just beginning the organization. Everything had to be done with conscious effort to put people in charge. In other words, I’m not gonna absorb everything. Now, Saul Alinsky did the same thing. In the organization of communities, you don’t absorb everything. You hand it over to a leader, somebody who’s from the community itself, and they will organize their own leadership as well. Same thing was true with pastoral work. How do you get people actually to be involved? Well, you develop them as people who can organize their own group, their own team, in order to do a particular job. This is what you try to do. So, I’m sorry. I’m, maybe, meandering a bit. JJ: No, no, I think that’s exactly what we’re [looking for?]. DH: But that’s pretty much where it is, I think. [00:43:00] So -- JJ: So, it was -- because we called it self-determination, but -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- [by the?] Young Lords. DH: Yeah, sure. JJ: But, it sounds -- I mean, it’s similar -- DH: It’s pretty much the same. JJ: It’s pretty much the same? 28 �DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: We got a lot of ideas -- DH: Sure. JJ: -- from the Caballeros de San Juan. DH: I’m sure you did. Everything crosses over. JJ: Right. Right. DH: It all crosses over. JJ: So, okay. So, you were creating the leadership, and this is how the whole movement -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- of the Caballeros was beginning to form. DH: That’s right. JJ: I know that my mother gave catechism classes -- DH: Sure. JJ: -- in her home (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- DH: I know, yeah. JJ: -- and I’m trying to -- so, this is where that fits in. I mean -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- it’s connected to -- DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: -- what the Caballeros were doing -- DH: There was a lot of connection. JJ: -- at that time. 29 �DH: Yeah, all that stuff. JJ: And so, what about the retreats? I mean, how -- (inaudible) Wisconsin. What was that about? DH: I don’t know much about that. JJ: You don’t know too much about that? DH: No. JJ: Okay. DH: [00:44:00] By the time I was there, we were running the Cursillos right there in the 13th and Wabash address. [In other words?], there were some people that were still being drawn out by the Claretians to go to Indiana (inaudible) [negative?] at that time with -- JJ: The [De Colores movement?] or --? DH: Well, De Colores was us. JJ: Oh, that was you. DH: That was the Cardinal’s Committee for Spanish Speaking. But what they did there -- they moved these people out. They were not quite as attuned to what was going on in Vatican II, and [Peter?] was pretty much against what we were doing. They thought that everything should come through the Claretians, you know? But it wasn’t sufficient at that time. Claretians had done a great job -- JJ: [The Claretians is a?] -- DH: -- in the previous -- JJ: -- [priest?]? 30 �DH: Oh, yeah. (inaudible) priest. Yeah. Peter [Rodríguez?] was a wonderful guy, actually, and he eventually -- when I came back from Panama, he never had a Lenten retreat without inviting me to do the talks. So, he was a good friend, then, after that, but, at the [00:45:00] time, he called me a communist. JJ: Okay. You were called a communist? DH: [Meaning the?] organization. Yeah, right. Called me a communist. He called Jorge Prieto too. JJ: So, I don’t feel alone in that. DH: Wonderful doctor [from the?] Mexican community, was a great friend of Puerto Ricans too. Jorge Prieto. Jorge Prieto’s a wonderful man. JJ: [Oh, Dr. Jorge Prieto?]. DH: Great human being. Yeah. And so, he founded the clinics for the county hospital, and the lady that was my -- [Carmen Mendoza?], who was my secretary and Leo’s secretary, she left the office when I was leaving the office, and went and organized for the union for the city, and also helped -- she eventually helped Jorge Prieto to start the clinics for the Cook County hospital, actually. But Jorge was a great friend. When Jorge and I went to California to accompany Cesar Chavez’s march from Delano, California to Sacramento, well, some of the Hermanos went with us, and -- JJ: [00:46:00] [That’s very?] -- DH: -- some Protestant minsters went with us. JJ: I didn’t know that the Hermanos from Chicago -- DH: Right. 31 �JJ: -- went to Delano -- DH: Went there as well, yeah. JJ: -- with Cesar Chavez. DH: And we all went together, and we accompanied all -- the whole march was all Holy Week, actually, that they did this in, so I was not in a parish, so I could do this on Holy Week. So, even on Friday, I named every person that was in the group there, the marchers, actually, themselves, the people -- the Campesinos -to really do a meditation on each of the Stations of the Cross. So, we did it as we were going towards Sacramento on Good Friday. It was a tremendous experience for people, and, you know, somebody would read this passage from the text, and then they would give their own meditation based on what their life as Campesinos [was all about?], as grape pickers or as lettuce pickers, whatever they were doing. It was a tremendous opportunity. So, these people also got an opportunity to see the way [00:47:00] other people were acting, and moving, and doing things that were significant on a faith level. Some of the people were not even Catholic, but they were -- on a faith level, they were the same as everybody else was. It was a good thing for people to see, I thought. JJ: Now, you had -- Jesus Rodríguez was also from council number three. DH: Pardon? JJ: (Spanish) [00:47:22]. DH: Three. Yeah. Right. JJ: Okay. So, were you at all familiar with that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 32 �DH: Oh, yeah. Sure. I used to go there all the time. A lot of people, I baptized there. When Kathrein wasn’t there, they would invite me to come in and baptize. My dad would always go with me too. My father would always go. Lot of the people from the different councils would come into my mom and dad’s apartment. They would play dominoes, right? There’s a great game. Capicúa (inaudible). It was hilarious, you know? But, beside that, they would wait for my mother’s lemon cream pie because my mom made great pies. She made this huge lemon merengue or lemon cream pie. JJ: I didn’t get your mom’s name. DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: [00:48:00] What was your mom’s name? DH: Virginia. Virginia, yeah. JJ: Virginia. And your father? DH: My dad was Everett. JJ: Everett, okay. DH: [It was a name from?] southern Illinois. JJ: Any brothers and sisters? DH: I had one brother, Dennis, yeah, but he was already married and off (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: But she made great cream pies, you said? DH: Oh, yeah. She had great pies, and my dad would pour coffee, you know? My dad would pour the coffee, and my -- my dad died in 1968, while I was doing a Cursillo, one of my last Cursillos before I was leaving for Panama, and it was two 33 �in the morning when they called me that my dad had died. Died of a heart attack. But, you know, he was very old, so -- he died at the age of 64. My mother did not die until 92, but she knew all the people in the community. When my dad died, as a matter of fact, there were four buses that came from Waukegan. Puerto Ricans. JJ: Oh, wow. (inaudible). DH: They were [lined?] around (inaudible) Funeral Home on 53rd and Kedzie for three blocks [00:49:00] ’cause they all knew my dad. They all knew my father. JJ: (inaudible) Puerto Ricans in Waukegan? DH: Oh, yeah. From everywhere in the city, actually. JJ: From everywhere in the city. DH: All the councils. Everybody was there. Everybody came. It was like two-night wake. It was just tremendous. It was really a great tribute to my dad, great tribute to the community that we worked in, actually, we loved very much. This Puerto Rican community was -- they taught me everything I know. (Spanish) [00:49:27]. That’s what they told me. JJ: (inaudible). DH: (Spanish) [00:49:30]. I didn’t know anything. I was green. I was green. They were trying to tell me that, and I recognized that fact, you know. I really was green, and I learned from them not only a way into that particular culture but into the Mexican culture, and, when I came back from Panama, I went into a parish eventually, Our Lady of Mercy, that had 60 countries represented and 46 languages. That was Our Lady of Mercy, [00:50:00] Albany Park. So, this is the 34 �way the city is, you know? And so, you have to be very sensitive to what you’re working with and who’s coming in your door. JJ: Now, was Saul Alinsky hired? How does he [figure in?]? DH: That group was hired by Catholic Charities to help organize -- JJ: The Saul Alinsky group? DH: -- at the beginning. Yeah, that was, like, way back in the ’50s. JJ: Yeah, this was in the -- DH: And then, eventually, they -- JJ: And they were hired to do that. DH: We didn’t need them anymore. Once the Caballeros were organized, we didn’t need them very much anymore, so they left, of course. JJ: So, they were hired to help -- DH: Right. JJ: -- organize the Caballeros. DH: [That’s what they were?]. JJ: Actually, so the Caballeros -- DH: Not the Hermanos. JJ: Not the Hermanos. DH: No, the Hermanos were organized within the Caballeros -- JJ: On their own. DH: -- for the different parishes. JJ: On their own, but they -- DH: Yeah. They -- 35 �JJ: But the Caballeros were definitely organized by the -- DH: By -- JJ: -- Saul Alinsky -- DH: With Saul Alinsky’s help. JJ: With Saul Alinsky’s help. DH: Though, they were not recognized by Saul Alinsky. JJ: They weren’t? Okay. DH: Saul never organizes anybody. It’s the leadership that’s formed that organizes the people. So, it was Juan Sosa and -- JJ: So, how did -- DH: -- [00:51:00] Calvino (inaudible). Those people. JJ: So, how did that form? I mean, did he start meeting with some of the leaders? DH: Well, yeah. I’m sure they did, yeah. Leo said, “I want you to meet with this particular group of people.” And so, he met with them, and then they would just sort of say, “Well, okay. Fine.” “Now, where are you guys living? What’s your story? [Where do you want to eat?]? Where do you want to be? How are you gonna get your people involved? What are you gonna go?” You know? Saul Alinsky always asked crazy questions. There’s a great interview after his death. Studs Terkel ran an interview after his death, which is marvelous. It’s Saul asking somebody, “Do you live in this building?” And the guy said, “Yeah, where else am I gonna live?” He said, “Well, why do you live here? Do you have rats?” “Of course we have rats.” “Well, do you have any locks on the windows?” “No, there’s no locks on the windows. What are you talking about?” “Why are you 36 �living in here?” “Well, because where else am I gonna live? [I got no other place?].” And then, Saul would say to the guy, “Yeah, but [anybody else?] live with you?” “Oh, yeah. Why?” “Well, do you pay rent to live here?” “Yeah.” He says, “Of course. I don’t pay rent, they’ll kick my butt out of here.” He said, “Yeah, but if nobody pays rent?” [00:52:00] And that was the question. “Nobody pays rent. You put it all in some kind of an [grow?] fund, you know, and then we make this guy fix the damn building. That’s what we’ll do.” That’s organizing. So, that’s what you do with people when -- and you do the same thing with the church. People come in and tell you that, well, their wife goes to Mass, but they have to reason to go to Mass. Well, let’s see what Eucharist really is. Let’s see what you think it is, first of all, and then we’re gonna -- we ask questions. I don’t think you can go into a parish or into a people and ever tell them answers before they ask any questions, but you have to ask questions. You have to find out where they are first. If you can find out where they are, then you have to go with them where they are, and you grow together with them. Okay? Spirituality is nothing if it’s not solidarity. Solidarity is something very special. Solidarity means that you are willing to [00:53:00] be with this particular group or person for the rest of your life, actually. You’re willing to give yourself away to them. You’re willing to change the gift of your life into the task of what grace is. [You really need to do this?]. In Pauline theology, what Paul writes in his letters, he tells us that the nature of God is not gathering. The nature of God is giving away, that God always empties God’s self. Kenosis is the word he uses in Greek, and God gives God’s self away, but, besides that, that’s why we can be the image of God. 37 �If we give ourselves away to the people we love and truly care about, then we are what we’re supposed to be. We are human. If we relate to the people, in other words. That’s what relationship’s all about. It’s the power to give yourself away to someone else. That’s really what it’s all about. So, if you don’t understand that, you’re never gonna become human, you know? So, that’s just the way it is. JJ: So, it’s [00:54:00] not being individual. DH: Yeah. No. JJ: Individualist, I mean. DH: You have to be a person who gives one’s self away within the community and to the people you care about. That’s, I think, the way it’s supposed to be. But that’s what you do when you’re working with the Hermanos. You sort of teach them how to do that. That’s what you do when you do a retreat or a Cursillo. You try to help them to see how that’s the most important thing in their life. JJ: So, there’s a retreat. There’s a Cursillo. It’s not the same thing? DH: No. Retreats can be on any subject, but a Cursillo is a very definite thing. Here, in Chicago, it was how do you get to be a Latino who is a person of faith? In other words, how do you understand sacraments in the right way? How do you understand church in the right way? It’s not a building, and it’s not a group of people that go to a building. That’s not the church. The only word for church, Iglesia, [00:55:00] comes from a Greek word that the people that made a translation of the Hebrew Bible used for only one thing: the group of people around Moses’s tent, waiting for Moses to say, “Okay, we’re marching towards 38 �freedom today. Let’s go. Let’s go toward the promised land.” So, we’re always people on the march. We’re never people who have the security of sitting in some place. We’re the people who look for the opportunity to escape from the church and go out the door, the exit sign being above us, and we walk out, and we go change the world. That’s what we’re supposed to be doing. So, I mean, that’s pretty much what it was all about. And then, in Panama was the Cursillo de Iniciación Cristiana, [and?] people began a whole different way of looking at what their religion had been and make it into an opportunity of faith, of building something out of where they were, and going into a future that they did not know, and not being afraid of that. That’s pretty much what happened there. JJ: I want to ask you what you’re doing [00:56:00] now, but I also want to -- I just want to try to get a little more description of -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- those first Puerto Rican parades and that community around -- DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: -- Wabash and Holy Name Cathedral. DH: Oh, sure. Right. Yeah. The cathedral. When they began the parade, for instance, it was a matter of bringing in all the different elements of the Caballeros de San Juan, the Knights of St. John, and all those guys -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: That’s right, and -- JJ: It was 1953. That’s what I -- DH: Right. 39 �JJ: -- discovered was the date of -- DH: Was the date of the parade. JJ: -- first parade, okay. DH: First parade. Right. And then, the second year, they went to St. -- to the parish on -- oh, where was it? What’s the matter with me? The basilica that’s -- JJ: The South Side, or is it North Side? DH: No, no, it was on -- JJ: West Side? DH: Yeah, it’s right in the middle of -- it’s actually right near the Loop, actually, but it’s on the West Side. JJ: Oh, okay. DH: It’s on the West Side. JJ: On Madison. On Madison. DH: Not on Madison, no. JJ: [00:57:00] By the Loop on the West Side. DH: Yeah, it’s on the West Side. yeah. JJ: [What’s that?]? DH: What’s the name of the parish? I know the name of the parish more than I know my own name, but I can’t [really?] think of it now. The first one began at the cathedral and did the march, and I’m not sure where it ended up. I was there, but I can’t remember where -- JJ: Well, I read that they had a dance at the Chicago Armory. I don’t know if it -- DH: That’s right, yeah. 40 �JJ: -- ended up there. DH: They did. Yeah. JJ: So, did it end up there? DH: I think it probably did. I don’t know. I don’t remember that. JJ: You think so? But I know I have -- there’s a picture of the cathedral, Holy Name - DH: Yeah. JJ: -- Cathedral, and there’s a dance at the Chicago Armory also. DH: [It was that same year?], yeah. Right. I don’t know where. This stuff confuses me (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: But you said, at that time, there were already Caballeros. DH: Oh, yeah. There were different [councils?]. JJ: And several churches. Do you have any idea where they were at, or --? DH: No, I would imagine one of the places would have been St. Michael’s -- JJ: St. Michael’s. DH: -- with Kathrein. I would imagine that would be -- [second one?] would be St. Joseph’s, who had two Dominican priests. JJ: St. Joseph’s by Cabrini Green? DH: The other would be -- right. And on the South Side would have been [00:58:00] 63rd Street. That’s where they would have been. JJ: And I believe [Spanish Mass?] (inaudible). DH: I think it was either four or five councils at that time. JJ: There was a movement for Spanish Mass at Holy Name Cathedral. 41 �DH: Right. JJ: I’m asking a little difficult question. I know that the -- DH: Yeah. JJ: It was St. Michael’s. Some people said that some of the people did not want the people at the church at first, and so -- at the main chapel, so that was a reason for using the hall. DH: I don’t know. JJ: Other people explain it also that they just wanted to be separate -- DH: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: -- at that time, that they felt more comfortable, and that’s why they -- DH: Well, they had to do a Spanish Mass. JJ: Yeah, they -- was there (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: Sometimes, things started in the basement, but they would eventually end up in the church. JJ: Was there any of that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: I don’t know what provoked that. Kathrein would have been managing that, I wound imagine, but I’m not sure what happened. JJ: [He didn’t?] notice any type of discrimination or anything that --? DH: Not that I know of. JJ: Okay. All right. DH: Not that I know of. The people -- JJ: I mean, there was discrimination in the city, [I know?]. DH: People are sometimes -- in [00:59:00] themselves, they’re racist. 42 �JJ: Well, I don’t mean the church. I mean individuals. DH: Yeah, no, as far as the church was concerned, it wasn’t -- it was [thought of?] how people can be more comfortable in what they’re gonna do. JJ: Okay, so it was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: That was pretty much the idea, I think. Yeah, I think that was what they were thinking of. At the Cardinal’s Committee, all you had were Latinos, which was great. It was wonderful. It was great. JJ: Okay, so the Cardinal’s Committee was definitely -- DH: Yeah, it was all Latinos. JJ: -- all Latinos. DH: Actually, the -- JJ: And it was [opened?] by Cardinal Stritch -- DH: It began with Cardinal Stritch, went through Meyer, and then, when Meyer died, Cody came in and pretty much let it go on, but it was a little bit different agenda. JJ: What was his reasoning for opening it up? DH: He had different ways of looking at life. He didn’t understand the council, that the theology there was gonna be different now. He didn’t understand that too well, but Meyer did understand. Meyer was also a scripture scholar, person who understood scripture very well, and he became a person who was very much against the [01:00:00] clericalism that, at times, afflicts the church, where the priests are, like, separate from the people, and would have approached more the Hélder Câmara way of looking at things. Hélder Câmara, the great bishop of Brazil, Recife, who took off all the fancy garments, you know, and carried a 43 �wooden cross and a regular suit, and went around the world that way. This sort of thing was kind of important, I think, for people as they began to look at the church. What Vatican II did was to bring out the ideas of collegiality. Now, I’m afraid the Vatican is trying to erase that, but -- which is too bad. I think it’s a shame, but that -- if you have collegiality, that means everybody’s talking to everybody, and clericalism says these people that are people that run everything, supposedly, are -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: -- the only ones that talk to one another, you know? JJ: Everybody in the church is talking to everybody? DH: Well, you have [01:01:00] collegiality -- JJ: Within the church or outside? DH: -- [would mean?] everybody’s talking to everybody. JJ: Within -- DH: Collegiality would be that. JJ: Within and outside the church? DH: Within and outside, right. JJ: Yeah. Okay. DH: Well, Our Lady of Mercy -- when I was there, we eventually had the group there found a neighborhood organization. Well, the one meeting that I was there for before I moved out of Our Lady of Mercy -- JJ: Was it at Lady of Mercy? 44 �DH: At Our Lady of Mercy. It was, like, in -- oh, maybe 1997 or so, I’m sure. I left there in 2002, but, in the end of the 1990s, we had a big meeting. There must have been six, seven hundred people in the basement, and there were people from Islam. There were Jewish people. There were people from all the different languages that were there. We had at least four or five translations going on with earphones for people so that everybody would be understood. This was [01:02:00] the people that were in that neighborhood. That was in the basement of Our Lady of Mercy Church, in their hall. You know, this was kind of important, that you look at the church as something that is much more than one particular group. I think there are three things that the church has to understand no matter who they’re working with. First of all, they’re not the reign of God. The church is not the reign of God. It’s just a group that’s supposed to live the norms of the reign of God, justice, love, and compassion, ahead of time because we’re not there yet. A better world doesn’t exist yet. Every generation has to look to create a better world. Every generation is gonna have to do that. Second thing is we’re one, but we’re many. One faith, one baptism, one Eucharist, and all that, but we still have different ways of celebrating and different ways of thinking. At Our Lady of Mercy now, for instance, every single Mass has its own choir because each Mass is different, although each Mass is the same. [01:03:00] So, it’s a tension. It creates tension in the community, but that’s good tension and not bad tension. Third thing is we are -- this church, we are also an institution. In other words, we have a pope, and bishops, and all people that are supposed to be the organizers, and then we have the people who are at the door, who are 45 �new people, sometimes, and they have something to offer, and, if these people are not accepted to offer what they have to offer, the trouble is that, the danger is that the institution would become [a cadaver?], and you don’t want that to happen, ever. That make sense? I think, pretty much, those are the principles that ran the organizations of the Knights of St. John, the Caballeros de San Juan, the Hermanos en la Familia de Dios, the parishes at that time in Chicago, the way in which, I think, the Young Lords tried to support one another and act in the world ’cause they had to confront what was a white, powerful, money-possessing [01:04:00] reality in the city, you know, that they had to really confront and to live with, or against, or over. They had to be there, and they had to get something for what was the community that was being left out. There was an interesting passage that comes up in Deuteronomy all the time that the king has only one job. In other words, a leader has only one job. It’s to make sure that these people have a job, food, and roofs over their head. Who are they? Widows, orphans, and the strangers in the land. In other words, they’re supposed to look out for those who are on the edges. If they take care of the people that are on the edges -- which is something we don’t seem to understand in this country anymore, but if they take care of people on the edges, then everybody in the middle is okay. Think about it. You know, when you think about it, it’s true, but we don’t take care of the people on the edges anymore, and there are people in government and outside of government that would like to eliminate everybody that’s on the edges. [01:05:00] That’s not fair. 46 �JJ: So, how did you see the whole thing in Lincoln Park, where a lot of the -- after the community organized. DH: Yeah. Well -- JJ: The Caballeros and [Damas?] organized, and -- DH: Yeah. JJ: And then, they were displaced. I mean, how did you see that? DH: I think, in Lincoln Park and the other park area, like, even -- JJ: [In other parks?]. DH: Yeah. Well, everywhere there were Latinos, the thing was to keep them there and allow them to organize there, help them to better the community and the neighborhood in which they were living, make it a family-based community, and they seem to be doing pretty well. I think what damaged everything happened around ’68, ’69, ’70, when the drug culture began to take over, which is a horrifying thing, when you have kids becoming ill, you have people sharing needles. Even some of the greatest families in our community, you had two and [01:06:00] three children dying of AIDS, and this should never have happened. Eventually perishing, even though they were married, or they had -- but they had been sharing needles with people who had the AIDS virus, and, at that time, there were no antivirals like we have today that are helping people to survive, but that (inaudible) survive. It was terrifying. It was terrible. JJ: And why do you think that happened at that time? DH: What? I’m sorry. JJ: Why do you think that happened? 47 �DH: Why do I think that happened? Because, all of a sudden, you know, we had -- JJ: [I mean?], all of a sudden, that happened. DH: We had laws that were -- they were promoting the fact that you could not have drugs, you could not get drugs, and it was against the law to have them. And so, people started making money selling them on -- you know, where they shouldn’t be able to sell them, and you had the gangs begin, also, to take over that particular operation. JJ: Okay, but I was asking also, [01:07:00] and, again, this is [normally an?] -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- [investigative?] thing, but, because part of the project is that -- DH: Sure. JJ: -- the neighborhood was being displaces at the time -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- and they were trying to stabilize the -- DH: Right. JJ: -- neighborhood, so I wanted to know what you felt at that time because, eventually, here’s an organization that’s being built. DH: Right. JJ: Council number three -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- council number nine -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- and other councils. 48 �DH: Yeah. JJ: But, now, they’re going along with the community. They’re -- DH: Yeah. Right. JJ: -- getting displaced too. How did you think about that? DH: Well, I -- JJ: How did you see that? DH: The problem, I think, was that they eventually decided to stop the community organization reality of the Knights of Saint John, and they became a cooperative credit union, which eventually collapsed, which was sad, I thought. It was long after I left that they collapsed, but they were [01:08:00] beginning to think on that level, especially the Cheveres, and Cesar Rivera, and those people from that particular family. Gloria Chevere, who’s a judge right now, as a matter of fact. But that family decided to move the Knights of Saint John into this area of credit union, which was a good thing for people, in a sense. People could take loans and build homes, and they did, except that, then, people began to take what they were getting, and going out to a suburb, and building a home there so that, eventually, they would move out of the community in which they were. Something similar to what happens to people in Panama when you build a bridge in a community. Stuff doesn’t come into the community. All the kids escape. All the young people go somewhere else. They certainly, as the country in general, prospers. They may become doctors, and lawyers, and Indian chiefs, but the point is, you know, there they are, but [01:09:00] you thought you were building the bridge so people would be able to get their products out, and, all of a sudden, 49 �you find people not growing rice and beans anymore, doing something else, escaping, going somewhere else. So, things change. JJ: So, you didn’t see them [off?]? So, there was a push factor, and then you didn’t see the [push factor?]? DH: Well, I don’t -- JJ: I mean, [you don’t?] -- DH: -- know whether that’s possible. I think, when people decide they’re gonna be moving out, they’re gonna move out anyway. The thing is, what do they have as an instrument for living as they move out of where they are? For instance, there are people that went with us before I left for Panama to the dedication of the churches in Panama. We went there the year that Cody went there too. Cody went there and left before Martin Luther King came into the city, and we went to Martin Luther King’s presentation in the Soldier Field, and then, after that, we left for Panama. It’s okay. Take your time. (break in audio) DH: (inaudible)? JJ: Yeah. DH: Well, I think, [01:10:00] when the riot occurred, for instance, I think that Daley used it in order to put the wrong people in charge of the Puerto Rican community. They had no Hermanos or Young Lords on it. They had [Claudia Flores?] on it. Remember Claudia Flores? JJ: I remember Claudia -- 50 �DH: One of the biggest crooks in the whole city. [They were?] stealing money from people that were trying to go back to Puerto Rico to visit family, and he would -egregious, terrible costs that he would give people [and stuff?], or doing their taxes. I do not like the man at all, but those are the kind of people that Daley put on his committee after the riot ended, you know? It lasted for three days. It was over. One kid only was shot, but he wasn’t killed. He was just shot, wounded, and this all began when some kid was shot in the park by a policeman, you know? There were no cops that were sympathetic to the Puerto Rican community. None. There were no real [01:11:00] Puerto Ricans on the [committee?]. That didn’t happen until years later, when we began, in the office, actually, a preparation for young guys from the Mexican and Puerto Rican community to prepare for the exam to become a policeman and to become a fireman. JJ: You say “we” -- the Caballeros or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: Well, not so much the Caballeros. By that time, they were already moving towards becoming a cooperative credit union, but the Hermanos were promoting that. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), okay. DH: And that’s [fruit?] of the Caballeros anyway. Everything goes back to the Caballeros. JJ: Right, ’cause -- right? Today, it’s the Hermanos that are doing the work. DH: Right. Well, the Hermanos -- I don’t know whether they’re doing work now. The -- 51 �JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: -- group that meets at St. Hedwig’s, for instance, is like a hundred years old. Every once in a while, I go there and give talks to them, but they didn’t call me and remind me about June. I was supposed to go back there in June, but they didn’t call me this June. I have to find out what’s going on there. I’m not sure they’re still meeting. I hope they are, but they’re really an older group. But, [01:12:00] eventually, you know -- when I left, also, the charismatic movement began to come and take over for the Cursillo movement. JJ: Right, my mother was involved with that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: Right. And [that’s the?] charismatic movement. JJ: What is that? What is that? Can you explain (inaudible)? DH: Well, charismatic movement is more on a Pentecostal level but in the Catholic church, where people get together, and they pray, and they sing, and they speak to God and -- supposedly in languages so that nobody understands or something, but the point is that’s fine, but that’s all emotional stuff, but we -when I went to Mercy, there was a group at Mercy that was there, but I used every single person that was in that group to become [ministry?] in the parish, and I would make sure that they got better scripture, and they got better formation, and they got all that stuff. So, they stayed in the charismatic movement, but they also became part of the parish as ministry. That’s why they have 3,000 people there now who are ministers, because you don’t tell people, “You can’t be here because you’re charismatic.” [01:13:00] What you do is you say, “Okay, fine. You want something more? Let me see how you can be a 52 �better charismatic person,” you know? “How can you do this?” So... But all this stuff -- everything comes with change, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, but you have to know how to ask the questions about the change with faith that people are basically going to be able to make good decisions with their life. That’s what you really want, and, to do that, they have to be people of faith, whether the charismatic movement lends that to people or some other movement. Whether it’s in the church or out of the church makes no difference, but that’s what you want to have happen for people’s benefit and for the benefit of their communities and their families. So, that’s pretty much the way it is, I think. JJ: Okay. You’re at the church here now, at St. Mary of the Woods Church, or what are you doing now? I know [01:14:00] you’re retired. DH: Well, Our Lady of Mercy Church -- I just sort of live here. I do Mass in the mornings and weekends, and do the homilies, and -- but I mostly -- my particular job is to teach for the archdiocese. I teach scripture, and history, and pastoral training for people in the diaconate program and people in the lay ministry program. So, September, I start a course out in [Midland?], at the seminary, but for people up in the northern suburbs from Waukegan, and from that area, and from up near Harvard, Illinois and those places, which are really far north. So, I start a course for them on what is the Christian scriptures, the 27 books of what we call the New Testament. I did a course at the end of last year -- well, I think it was the end of last year -- at St. Stanislaus Parish for people in the Hebrew scriptures. [01:15:00] I will do a Hebrew scriptures course for people, but they 53 �meet at St. Philomena’s Parish, which is a little bit west and south of here. You know, it’s all work to be done. Get people ready, and then they graduate from that, and they eventually decide whether they’re going into the diaconate or going to be pastoral ministers in their parish area. So -JJ: So, once they graduate and become diaconate -- DH: Well -- JJ: -- [will they?] -- DH: Diaconate program is a lot longer than this particular program. It begins with this program, but this program goes on for two years. And then, if they want the diaconate, they have to do that in consultation with their parish staff, and then they get permission to start the program for diaconate, which requires a little bit more reflection, and a lot more formation, and more scripture, and more theology, more liturgy, more understanding of how to preach, how to talk to people, how to give a homily, for instance. All that [01:16:00] stuff is included, and they have, like, a five-year preparation. But what I do with the archdiocese on these occasions is the two-year course. Actually, when I came back from Panama, there was nothing. Everything had stopped. It was all in English. Everything was done in English. So, I talked to some of the priests, and we said, “Are you satisfied with this?” And they said, “No.” I said, “Well, let’s start something else.” So, [Juan Retrato?], who’s a priest from Mexico, and [Tero Keef?], and several other priests from the archdiocese here, we decided we were gonna start a course. I got [Larry?] -- [forgot?] Larry’s last name. Damn. It’s at Maternity B.V.M. Parish before we began it. We began to do courses there on 54 �scripture, and history, et cetera. We were all trained people, so we could do it. And so, we started it, and the archdiocese was questioning this. “Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this?” Well, because [01:17:00] you need this in the archdiocese. Eventually, they took it over. It became the Instituto de Liderazgo Pastoral for training for people in the entire diocese, and, also, we began a catechetical program for Latinos because they had all kinds of North American people teaching Latino kids. That’s ridiculous because Latinos [have?] just as much catechism as anybody else. Besides that, if you train them, they know a lot more. And so, the thing was, we began to train people in catechetics in Spanish, and people who were from that culture, and every child needs someone from his own culture to speak to him or her, you know? And you want parents to be involved. So, eventually, I ended up in Mercy, and we just did that constantly in Mercy. Everybody had to have their own way of doing things. Like, we had a Hispanic group. We had Filipino groups. We had Korean groups. We had everything there, and we had some things that were bilingual, some things that [01:18:00] were unilingual for a particular Mass, and other things that were trilingual. Like, the liturgy for Holy Week was always three languages -- Spanish, English, and Tagalog -- and that’s what we would do, and people -- they did the best they could with it. They did a great job, and people wanted to be there, so it was good. But that’s the way we thought it had to be, so it was a matter of rebuilding something that I thought existed when I left in 1968 but that they had destroyed in the meantime. JJ: So, you were gone from ’68, and you came back --? 55 �DH: I came back in 1982. JJ: 1982, right. (inaudible). DH: 1981, actually, but, 1982, I went to Our Lady of Mercy, and, by that time, we were trying to organize something new. JJ: I know that the Hermanos are -- you said St. Hedwig’s? DH: St. Hedwig’s now. They live there, yeah. JJ: And -- DH: Well, they work there. They go there. JJ: So, that’s their base right now? DH: Their base. Usually, they meet on Monday nights. Have you talked to them at all? JJ: [01:19:00] I talked -- DH: To those guys? JJ: -- to one of them. DH: Did you? Okay. JJ: And I do want to talk to some other -- DH: Okay, that’s good. JJ: -- people (inaudible). This project will go on for another year. DH: Yeah. Sure. Sure. JJ: So, we definitely [will contact them?]. DH: That’s good. JJ: Any final thought that we should --? 56 �DH: No, I don’t think so. I just hope that people understand what we’re trying to say, but let’s see what happens. I hope they do. JJ: (inaudible) everybody’s perspective, you know? That’s what we’re trying to do. DH: No, I think it’s a good idea to do this. I think it’s important for people to know where the organizers of things were at that particular time, and we hope people [would be now?]. So many of the Puerto Rican community has gone back to Puerto Rico and moved to suburbs, or they’re more separate now from one another than they were at that time. At that time, they were together, very much together, but, now, they’re pretty much separate, [01:20:00] or they’re gone back to Puerto Rico, where they really are together there, but that’s not the point. And, here, now, in the city, we have so many different communities. Like I mentioned before, Lady of Mercy has 60 countries, and 46 languages, and different varieties of Spanish. You have people from Quechua communities or Aymara communities, from Peru and Bolivia. You have people from all kinds of other places in Latin America. You have people from Asia, people from everywhere, so it’s [a great world?], and it’s a multiethnic church, and you have to pay attention to it. You have to help people to grow in their own culture and celebrate in their own culture, I think, and you have to help them to do it. That’s about it. JJ: I appreciate [it?]. Thank you [very much?]. DH: Thank you very much. JJ: Appreciate it. DH: Oh, you’re welcome. I don’t know whether it was very good, but -- JJ: It was very good. 57 �DH: -- we’ll see. JJ: It was very good. Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 58 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e7da8217ca2c257cc82af026c681f92.mp4 19b3328c47dccb17dcb6ae765d00eda8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Father Donald J. Headley vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Iglesia Católica. Arquidiócesis de Chicago (Ill.) Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Headley_Donald Title A name given to the resource Father Donald J. Headley video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Headley, Donald Description An account of the resource Fr. Donald Headley was first ordained as a Catholic priest in 1958 and is resident priest at the St. Mary’s of the Woods Faith Community in Chicago. He recalls meeting with Saul Alinsky and working with Rev. Jack Eagan, the founder of urban Catholic activism. He also recalls a great deal about the Puerto Rican community in La Clark that grew up through the 1950s. Fr. Headley’s work in Chicago also prompted him to spend 13 years working with the poor in the San Miguelito Mission in Panama during the late 1960s and 1970s. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Catholic Church. Archdiocese of Chicago (Ill.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0951ecf3d3be47f371e30bb278526f13.mp4 06582e6e9926cbcf057a2e755c521a89 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c798b0c59c8d9427fcf98bc25acb6160.pdf 8f58ca9f2c6a6deb9e3b2949266caa2f PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Roger Healy Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Roger Healy of Gobles, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Roger, begin with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born in Allegan, Michigan. We lived in Bloomingdale my first 5 years of my life. Interviewer: And what year were you born? Veteran: 1949. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I was put into school at 4 years old. I was next to the youngest person in there. But I went to kindergarten in Bloomingdale and then we moved to a farm in Gobles. And I lived there on that 5-acre farm for 10 years until I was 14. Graduated from Gobles. Interviewer: Okay, high school? Veteran: Mhmm. Interviewer: Okay. And what year did you graduate from high school? �2 Veteran: ’67. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do after you got out of high school? Veteran: I went to one year college at Southwestern Michigan in Dowagiac. I was 17 when I got in and there is no way I should have been. I always felt that I have been one step behind and trying to catch up. I was the biggest. That’s why they put me in there, at 4. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But I wasn’t up to speed on things and that. I never had a brother. I had 2 sisters. So, I never was able to experience that. So, I have a lot of brothers that they don’t know that they are my brothers, but I don’t have a lot that many anymore. But my best brother is right over there and that. [referring to fellow Vietnam vet Chester Johnson, who sat in on the interview session] He’s here right now. But… Interviewer: Okay. So— Veteran: Drafted on July 15th, ’69. Interviewer: Okay. So, you had basically about a year between when you left school and when you got drafted? (00:02:23) Veteran: No, I went to school for a year and decided that it wasn’t for me. So, I went to work for an electrical company, IBW, building steel towers and streetlights. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Different things like that when I was drafted. �3 Interviewer: Alright. Now, this is a point when you are—you have finished high school in ’67 and then you try college, and you go to work. That’s when Vietnam—the Vietnam War—has really heated up and the draft is going full blast. Were you basically expecting that you were going to get drafted at some point? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And what was your attitude toward that? Were you just going to take it when it came? Or…? Veteran: I didn’t necessarily come from a military family, but I grew up knowing the system and knowing, you know, you enlist—or not enlist, when you turn 18 you… Interviewer: Register for the draft. Veteran: Register, yeah. And I just rode the wave, you know? I just did what I was told. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I had planned for it, I guess, my whole life more or less. Interviewer: Okay, so you just kind of expected that was something you were going to do at that time. Okay, did you pay any attention to the news before you went in? Did you follow the stuff about what was happening in Vietnam? Veteran: Not a lot. One—you only needed to see it once. You knew what, you know, you kind of knew what was going on and just prayed to God and crosses your fingers and all that stuff. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you get drafted in the middle of ’69. What’s the process now? You get the draft notice. What do you do next? (00:04:13) �4 Veteran: Well, a friend of mine got his notice—in school, a classmate of mine—and he had 30 days. And so, we were doing a normal riding around out on the back roads, feeling sorry for him and all that. Well, 2 weeks later, Nixon gave me a letter for the same day. So, those two weeks we are going, “Oh man,” and this and that. So…And when the time came, we…at least I had a friend, a classmate, that we were good friends. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we went through basic training at Fort Knox. Interviewer: Where did you report to first? Veteran: Paw Paw, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: A small house that had the office and a… Interviewer: Just like a— Veteran: Still there. Just went by it yesterday. Interviewer: Was that like a recruiter’s office? Or…? Veteran: Yeah, I guess it probably was. Interviewer: Yeah. Or an armory or something. Veteran: No, just a small stucco house. Interviewer: Not an armory. Okay. Alright. And then they send you then to Fort Knox? Veteran: Well, we went to Detroit. �5 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that is where we were inducted and then we went by bus down to Fort Knox. Interviewer: Did you get a physical at Detroit? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Now, sometimes you hear stories about people trying to game the system and do things to— Veteran: All around you. Interviewer: Okay, so did you observe any of that? What were people doing? Veteran: Yeah. Sleeping with bars of soap in their armpits so their temperature would be raised so that they would just say, you know…Simple as that, they were doing you know. Interviewer: Okay. Did that fool anybody? Veteran: I don’t know. I didn’t pay attention. I was just…just kind of doing my own, you know, in my own world. Interviewer: Alright. Alright, so that— Veteran: We did do—we did go to Canada. About 8 of us. Max and I, my buddy. We got on a bus and went through the tunnel. Went to Canada because you could drink at 18, I guess or something there, at that time. And so, we went over there and had a pitcher of beer. Pass it around and this and that. We looked around and we go, “Oh, what are we going to do now?” We looked at each other and we just got up and went back to the bus station and…And we just did— and you know, none of us were going to stay. We just went because we could. (00:06:46) �6 Interviewer: Sure. Okay, well that’s— Veteran: Last bit of freedom kind of. Interviewer: Alright. Well, had you reported in by then? Or did you do that kind of on the way over there? Veteran: It was after the physical and things like that. Interviewer: Okay. So, they actually let you out? Veteran: It was overnight. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we stayed in the Ford Hotel, I think they called it. And they were throwing televisions out. I mean it was…I mean it was chaos all around us but… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We were hometown, you know, back country boys. We just watched them. Interviewer: Okay, so there were a lot of people there who were not happy to be there? Veteran: Probably, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But now you take a bus down to Fort Knox? Or do they fly you down? Veteran: Yeah, we took a bus down to Fort Knox. Interviewer: Okay. And what kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox? �7 Veteran: Well, I am pretty sure it was dark. And we were tired and just wanted a place to sleep. And that’s what we was was given quarters and a place to sleep. Interviewer: Okay, so they didn’t start yelling at you right away? Veteran: I don’t think so. Interviewer: Okay. Because the Army varies with that kind of thing. The Marines always yell at you. Veteran: Back then it was kind of trying—it was being phased out a little bit. But they still got in your face a lot. Interviewer: Okay. But that didn’t start the night you got there? (00:08:14) Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did they process you for a couple days? Or what happens then? Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, processing and then they tested us. Aptitude or whatever to see what our background had been. And heck, I didn’t know what to fill in on that. I would have done it differently if I had known. But our past skills and things that, you know, I had driven truck and farm machinery and all that stuff, but I never wrote it down. When we were into firing range, I was hiding from the silhouettes and just shooting at the top instead of doing what I should have, or I probably would have been a sniper. Or they would have wanted me for a sniper because I deer hunted. I had killed 5 deer by the time I, you know, starting at 14 and that. And with one shot. And but I am glad that I didn’t. I wouldn’t have been able to do that I don’t think. I don’t think. �8 Interviewer: So, what designation do you get? Do they just—they make you an infantryman? Or something else? Veteran: Well, it was…Fort Knox is infantry but the second day, they marched us down to another company area or whatever and this and that. They marched us through. And we went in and got our—I think we got our clothes and stuff like that or whatever. But anyway, we got back into formation. And they called my name. They said, “Fall out.” I am going, what did I do wrong? Well, they said, “You are the platoon guide.” They put sergeant stripes on me and said, “Take them back to the company area.” And I am going, what?? So, somehow, I—you know, I just kind of did what the drill sergeants had been doing. You know? And so, I took them back and I was given my own room in the barracks. And I lasted…I don’t know how I lasted, how long it was….14—or a month or so, 4 weeks or something—but I had to get up before everybody else and go around and take sick call and do all this stuff and get down there. Well, I was never a morning person. (00:10:38) Veteran: Never, still haven’t—aren’t. So, I came home probably after 4 weeks, 5 weeks, I don’t know, into it. And my—it was a daily basis that my footlocker was upside down and my standup locker was…They just came in because it was—I didn’t do the right things, place my stuff right. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: If I would have been smart, I would have employed some of the other people. Max would have been a perfect one to have—he would have done that for me, and I would have, you know. And but I was back in the ranks with the rest of them. And just went along with it because �9 I, you know, I wasn’t—I am not—I wasn’t a leader. Never was. I was the, you know, I was the youngest one in every group, so I was just floating around and following everybody. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: All of a sudden, here I am leading 32 people and keeping them in line and this and that and whatever. And I didn’t do it right. Interviewer: Okay. Now, physically, was the training very demanding? Or could you handle that? Veteran: Yeah, I—it was—once we got in shape. But I was a farm—I worked on the farm. We baled hay and this and that. And when I worked, it was physical. So, yeah that worked out pretty good, I guess. Interviewer: Okay. And could you adjust to just following orders? Was that…? Veteran: Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I had readied myself for, you know…there has got to be a top of the pyramid and, you know, right there. And our main thing is the DI and the rest of us went down from there. But… Interviewer: So, you just kind of did what they told you to do when—and got through it. (00:12:28) Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, how long was basic? �10 Veteran: You know, I have never really paid attention to that because I was in—it’s hard to because what happened after that. I was in country longer than I would have if I had just gone through basic AIT and then shipped out. But I lost track of things when they…Again, when we were in AIT, I don’t know if you want to skip forward to that? Interviewer: Oh yeah. Well, we wanted it to be—so, basic training is normally at that point about 8 weeks. At least, that’s the standard course. Unless you get hurt or something and stay longer. And then from there— Veteran: Okay, that’s about right. Interviewer: Okay. And then you get the Advanced Individual Training, AIT. And where did you do that? Veteran: Fort Polk, Louisiana. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I believe we flew down there. Might have been a bus but I think we—I think that was the first time I had flown on an airplane. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we went down, and we went through that. Interviewer: And what kind of training was that? Veteran: Infantry. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Combat, Vietnam. �11 Interviewer: Alright. And what kinds of things did they do there to try to prepare you for Vietnam? Veteran: Well, the terrain and the climate kind of like that has was similar to Vietnam except for in the wintertime. When I was there, it was 17 degrees down there. When the monsoons in there in Vietnam, you felt like it was 17 degrees when the monsoon is—if you got wet. I mean, it was…You had to take care of yourself. But they had the Heartbreak Hill and several different pretty tall…. not mountains but… Interviewer: But hills or ridges or whatever? Veteran: Pretty good ones, yeah. And we did full pack and just a lot of training and more of the same. (00:14:26) Interviewer: Okay. Was there a difference in terms of how you were treated in AIT as opposed to how you were treated in basic? Or was it still pretty much the same? Veteran: It was probably about the same. It was—I think it was starting to ease up from what previous soldiers or whatever had to deal with. But I—it didn’t bother me that much. So…I just got through it somehow. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did they try to teach you anything about Vietnam in terms of the people, or the society or dealing with civilians or anything like that? Veteran: Mostly weapons. Just getting to know the weapons and that stuff. Now, I don’t really think that there was that much going on about what was there, what the people were there doing. Interviewer: Okay. Were your—any of your instructors people who had been to Vietnam? Veteran: Probably. I really couldn’t tell you. �12 Interviewer: Okay. Because if they are not telling you things about Vietnam then you might well not know. Veteran: Well, they were kind of private. There was one where—sergeant I remember that got busted to an E-1 because he borrowed money from some of us and they found out about it and that. So, they didn’t kick him out, they just busted him from an E-5 to an E-1. And so, he was back on the ladder. But he was someone who couldn’t survive on the out, you know. He had to— better than prison, he was in the service. He was able to be, you know, but he was the type of person that just wouldn’t have made it on the outside. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Back in those days you know, that was what I figured, you know. (00:16:23) Interviewer: Alright. So, the AIT is also normally about 8 weeks. Do you think that’s what—about how long? Veteran: Mhmm. Interviewer: Okay, so what happens to you after AIT? Veteran: We were standing in formation again and they are passing out—or calling names—and passing out orders. And the next thing we knew, they called 8 of us out of the formation. And they said, “We didn’t get enough volunteers for NCO school so you 8 are going to NCO school.” So, we got orders. We went home for 30 days and then reported to Fort Benning, Georgia, for NCO school. Interviewer: Okay, that is Non-Commissioned Officer school, for people who don’t really know. �13 Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, alright. And so, what was that program like? Veteran: Well, there wasn’t as much people being in your face more. It was a little bit more mature and, you know, we more or less knew what to do. We knew what was going on and things like that. So, it went a little bit smoother and that. Interviewer: Okay. And physically, what did they make you do? Veteran: The obstacle courses were somewhat more. We would, you know, using a rope to get across water. You know, and just a little bit more intense than what the basic…You know, just went up a little bit more. And then we knew, you know, it was all infantry training. So, we knew… Interviewer: Okay. And did they give you any training in leadership or in tactics or anything like that? Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, but I don’t know how far along into that was that I decided that I wasn’t going to—I didn’t want to tell anybody what to do. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They can tell me what to do and I will decide how I am going to do it. I will get the job done. But I am not going to be stupid about it. (00:18:20) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And about the same time, a buddy that had been in basic and AIT, another Michigan guy, we sat down one day, and he was married and had two kids and stuff. And he said, “Man,” he says, “I want to get this over with.” And he had more or less made up his mind that he was �14 going to go home. We dropped out, is what we did. And he went home, and I went home. And we’d keep in contact, and he said, “I am not ready.” He says, “I am not ready to go.” And I said, “Well, just call me when you are.” Well, 8 days later we finally reported. Interviewer: Okay. So, were you AWOL? Or you were talking— Veteran: It was like 8 days AWOL. Interviewer: Okay. And that—was that before you went to Fort Benning? Or was it after you got there, and you did it for a while and then went away? Veteran: This is when we—after we got our orders for Vietnam, after we quit Fort Benning and NCO school. Interviewer: Okay. Okay. I am just trying to shore up this scene. So, basically you go a certain—you go through part of NCO school, but you don’t finish. And then you are able to tell the Army, basically, “I don’t want to do this.” And then they say, “Okay, you are going to go to Vietnam now.” Was that—so, you get orders for Vietnam, and you have some time before you have to report. Veteran: We had 30 days legally and then we were about 38 days when we ended up reporting to—in Oakland. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: California. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you—when you got there, were you in any trouble for being 8 days late? �15 Veteran: We got busted to E-1s and spent two weeks in a barracks. And then we got on a plane and went to Vietnam. Interviewer: Alright. Remember, was it a—like a chartered civilian plane? Or military— Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And do you remember if you stopped anywhere? (00:20:20) Veteran: Yeah, we stopped in Hawaii. We stopped in Wake Island. We stopped in Guam. And then I think it was…and I don’t know because I actually did the whole thing twice. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I might tell you that later. But because going over there and coming back once, and then going back over and coming back, they took different routes that it was different. One time we went through Alaska. I think that is when I came home though. We came through Alaska. But… Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But Wake Island would have been on the way from Hawaii because that’s a natural kind of jump and so was Guam. So, and if the plane wasn’t big enough to fly the whole distance, then you refuel. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, where did you land in Vietnam? Veteran: Probably…Well, we got—I got assigned to the 25th infantry, which was in Cu Chi but I don’t know if it would have been… Interviewer: Probably Tan Son Nhut because that is— �16 Veteran: I was going to say Tan Son Nhut or Cam Ranh Bay but that was—I had malaria twice, so I was there for two weeks a couple times. But it was probably Tan Son Nhut. Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were going to Vietnam, did you know what unit you were joining? Or…? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay, so you are just a general replacement at that point. Okay. When did you arrive in Vietnam? Veteran: That was February… Interviewer: 1970 now. Veteran: Right. I was there 11 months and 19 days. So, I was never very good at math. So… Interviewer: Okay. So, basically the early 1970 is when you arrived there. Okay. And what was your first impression of Vietnam when you go there? Veteran: The smell. Interviewer: Can you describe it? Veteran: It was—I never smelled anything like it. It was, I guess, a conglomeration of gunpowder and latrines and…incense probably, smoke and different things. It was just hard to…it almost—it was just to the point of making you nauseous, you know, making you sick. But you sooner or later got used to it. (00:22:44) Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you land during the day or at night? �17 Veteran: I believe it was nighttime. Most every time we got transported it seemed like it was nighttime. So, I didn’t really get a good look at things coming in. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Get a lay of the land or anything like that. Interviewer: Alright. So, once you land, what happens to you? Veteran: I guess they probably issued us uniforms and some equipment. No weapons at that time. And I don’t know how long I kicked around before I reported, because I ran into people that I knew, people that had been in basic or AIT or something, and they had been there for a while because I spent the 5 weeks or whatever in NCO school. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, I was behind again. No, kind of, but it worked out. But 2 of the guys that I remembered their names and faces but I saw them coming. I was like oh man, cool, there is somebody that I can get some information on what to do here. And they, “Hey, how you doing?” and just kept on. I was like what the heck? They turn around. Well, they had been on an ambush, and they were on a poncho line, and they are in rice paddies, and everything was flying and that. And a ChiComm grenade got tossed in and they tossed—I guess they split, and they left their M60 machine gun there. And they got out of there and they weren’t injured. (00:24:33) Veteran: But they came to the rear, and they said, “We are reenlisting. We are going to Japan.” And that’s…And I am going wait a minute…I don’t know if that’s what I want to do. And then I ran into them, a buddy from high school, and this and that. And he was just about ready to ETS. He was going home. And but he let me camp out there in his hooch for a few days and that. And �18 I finally got homesick and wanted to get some mail. And I don’t know if it was a week or a month or whatever, but I finally went and reported. Interviewer: Okay, so you basically were just kind of there… Veteran: I was shooting pool, going from an NCO—or a… Interviewer: Club to another? Veteran: …club to another. And just feeling the place out and that. Interviewer: Okay. So, now you show up and they have orders for you? Veteran: They assign me to the 25th Infantry Division, 1st of the 5th Mechanized [Infantry Regiment], which I wasn’t going to kick there. So, we were able to ride to our ambush points and that. Rift during the day and then they would drop us off and we’d set up and ambush, they’d go back to the night logger. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Come back in a day, two days, a week, or whatever. You know, however long we were out there. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And what kind if vehicles did you have? Veteran: Armored personnel carriers. Interviewer: So, that is like the M113 mostly? Or…? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay, so standard. Like a big box on a tank chassis? �19 Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and that—but you still fight normally as infantry? You would dismount and—if you were going to go out and engage? Veteran: If and when we ran into it. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:26:17) Veteran: Thankfully, we didn’t get a lot of it. Towards the end but… Interviewer: Okay. So, that’s the unit you were assigned to. Now, where was the unit at that time? Veteran: Cu Chi. Interviewer: Okay. And explain a little bit about where Cu Chi was and what sort of place it was. Veteran: Well, it seems like every time I look at a map of Vietnam, it was near Saigon, but it seems like—I thought it was in one spot and it was—it is in a different one or whatever. But…And what they know about Cu Chi now is crazy. But I don’t know. I don’t really know what happened between there and the next thing I knew I was on top of an APC, and we are going out in the jungles, rice paddies, rubber plantations. We went from there towards Cambodia, Tay Giang, Dau Tieng, Camp Frenzell, Firebase Frenzell-Jones, and back to Cu Chi, which is where the 25th was based at. Interviewer: Yeah. That was their headquarters area. Okay. Now, when you—so, are you joining basically an infantry squad that has its own armored personnel carrier? Is that…? Veteran: No, it was a whole company. �20 Interviewer: Okay. So, you have a company and then—but a company isn’t going to all fit in one carrier. So, you have to have multiple vehicles. Veteran: Well, a squad was—it was a 10 man. Driver, 50 gunner, and then 8 personnel so there was 10 altogether is what the vehicle was designed for to get inside. Interviewer: Right. (00:28:06) Veteran: And…which was a no-no, we rode on top. Interviewer: Okay. So, why would you ride on top rather than inside? Veteran: Because of landmines. The concussion that would…it was better to be on top, sitting on ammo boxes full of grenades and ammos and whatever you could find to sit on for a seat. Interviewer: Okay. And were there roads and trails to drive on or did you just… Veteran: Most of the time, we’d have—we had two trackers. We were in the Michelin Rubber Plantation and BF Goodrich. We were there a lot. And surrounding areas. We’d go out on rifts; they’d call it rift. And kind of like recon or something like that. But we would all ride on the vehicle and tell the guys, “Okay, here is where you are going to…” and we’d get off just before dark and set up the ambush and just pull guard duty and… Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you are sort of there for several—a period of 2-3 months or whatever before the invasion of Cambodia happens. Because the Americans officially start going in— Veteran: Well, that was in May. Interviewer: That’s in May. �21 Veteran: May 7th. Interviewer: But you were there a couple months before that gets going. So, was that time mostly one of just sort of driving around and going back and forth? Veteran: Well, they had gone into Vietnamization. They had—instead of going out in a company, we were going out in squads. It was broken down into squads. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We didn’t—and it was a whole different ball game, and nobody really knew what was going on; even the guys that were—had seen, you know, had been in country for a while. So, we were all…We counted on our Chieu Hoi Scouts, which were—they surrendered and came over to our side and we—they were Kit Carsons. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:30:20) Veteran: Chieu Hoi. They were Chieu Hoi, which is…but we relied on them quite a bit. You just watch their eyes. If they…you know, you grabbed your weapons. And just watch that true or low, one of the two, because we trusted them. They were good kids, or good guys. They were probably older. They were older than us but… Interviewer: Alright. So, you are just going out with an individual squad with one armored personnel carrier, just going out someplace by yourselves? Veteran: Yeah. I think we probably traveled in what we had left. There was usually four armored personnel carriers to a platoon. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: A squad needs one. �22 Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And when you look—when one got destroyed, you—we jumped in, you know. Interviewer Yeah. Were your squads full strength? Or were you usually missing some people? Veteran: The squads, I guess, were—we got resupplied, you know, as far as that. But E-6s, E-5s, and E-6s and their—I’ve got a thing I printed out that we were very low in a lot of places in…as far as officers. Interviewer: Okay. So, you don’t have enough sergeants of the right rank and you don’t have enough lieutenants to lead the platoons and— Veteran: No. Spec-4s were brought up to take care of it, you know, to fill the spot and stuff like that. Interviewer: Okay. Well, was there much actual fighting going on at this point? Or just IEDs or…? Veteran: We were—the Vietnamization was for us to go out and find it. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We were in a no-fire zone that you couldn’t fire unless fired upon. And then you were supposed to get, you know, clearance. But you know that didn’t happen. We could see the Ho Chi Minh Trail. I remember watching it with the naked eye. I could—we could see them and there wasn’t a thing we could do. Interviewer: Okay, so you are kind of getting up to the Cambodian border at that point? (00:32:27) �23 Veteran: We were back and forth. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: The two months before we went in or the three months that I was there. And in the meantime, the track that I was on, 32 track, with 3rd platoon or 3rd squad, the driver said, “Man, I am done. I am leaving.” Well, we says, “Well, who is going to drive this rig?” And I was the FNG. I was the… Interviewer: You’re the new guy. Veteran: And looked around and nobody is saying anything. I am going well hell, I’ll drive this thing. I’d seen what, you know, and I had had enough farm life and stuff like that. So, they said, “There it is.” So, I was assigned to the—me and the 50 gunner were assigned to the APC. We’d take—we’d rift all day long and then drop everybody else off and then we’d go back to the night laager and then pull guard. There was just the two of us so we would have to pull guard ourselves at night. Interviewer: Okay. So, the night laagers were a bunch—a group of the vehicles will be together kind of in a circle? Veteran: I call it a wagon wheel. We’d pull in and just follow the lead all the way around so that—and then we’d do a 90 degree, so we were all facing out. And go out and set our trip flares and Claymores and put our RPG screens up at front. And… Interviewer: Alright. Now, when you were in that kind of situation, would the Vietnamese—would they probe you or attack you? Or did they leave you alone? (00:34:05) �24 Veteran: No, they would—they would…Well, they had the bomb craters. A 10,000-pound bomb leaves a big hole and that. Well, they would hide in those and then just hold their AKs and fire above us over the top. Well, it was a diversion. They’d—on the other side of the night logger, they would crawl in and turn the Claymores around and things like that so when you hit the clacker, it would blow 100,000 BBs at us instead of them. And they would do things like that. I got to say the only one I guess that we got in was…pulled into the night logger one night, or one afternoon, and I just got off and everybody had to haul the duffel bags and everything on a litter just so, you know, all their belongings, everything and that. And I went over and laid down on them and I fell asleep. And I dreamt that there were Cobra jets and… gunships. I mean, I dreamt that all this…I woke up in the morning and looked around and it had actually happened, and I slept through it. I was so tired that I slept through that. But the—I was actually… Interviewer: You dreamed a fire fight and there was one. Veteran: Yep. Which would have been a nightmare. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, so did they—did that do much damage to your unit? Or…? did you— Veteran: There were some people missing and it was all small arms. Well, it must have been more than just small arms fire from the NVA or VC whichever it was. We—I don’t know if we ever found out. Excuse me. But I was very lucky I didn’t have—we didn’t have a whole lot of contact. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We did a lot of time guarding things. Like I say, the rubber plantations and things like that. We went out one time at night. We had never—nobody had ever done that before. You �25 know, black light, dark, and that was a trip. But I was—I got to say that it could have been a whole lot worse. (00:36:42) Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you—aside from the Kit Carson Scouts—I mean, did you work with any of the South Vietnamese military? Veteran: ARVN. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: I am…Now, did you work with them before the Cambodian incursion or only after that started? Veteran: I think we probably worked with them. We were—it was a—the whole year I was there, it was off and on. but they just didn’t want to. You know, they…when something happened, they’d go the other way. And 100 yards or something where they were safe, and they would be just sitting there going oh man. And you couldn’t blame them. I mean for crying out loud, it was…it was, you know. Interviewer: Yeah, I know a lot of—most of them would have been draftees and probably didn’t want to be there either. And then, didn’t necessarily have the level of training that you did or anything else. But so, they were there but you didn’t see them as a particularly effective fighting force at that point. Veteran: They had brand new M-16s. They had brand new fatigues, they had brand new armored personnel carriers that had never been off the road. Ours were—we had busted jungles. You could pull up on a tree that big around and knock it down. �26 Interviewer: Alright. So, how—what’s it like to drive an armored personnel carrier? (00:38:06) Veteran: It’s like driving a bulldozer, somewhat, only you are in the front left-hand corner instead of in the middle of it. But just laterals. We had extended laterals to ride on top. They had the motor pool made extended laterals so we could sit up. Interviewer: So, you could sort of basically stick your head out of the top and look around rather than just being out of sight? Veteran: Well, there is a round manhole cover that flips over to the rear. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: And I put a cushion or whatever on top of that. So, I was actually—had my feet on that and I went and had a long pole for the accelerator, with our 350 diesel Oldsmobile’s, I guess. I thought they were Chevys. That’s all that was moving that 13-ton vehicle. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, basically, if possible, you preferred to be up top driving rather than buttoned up inside the vehicle. Veteran: It was required. If…One time, one of my laterals broke so I had to leave them behind and I had to ride in the—down inside. But what—the first day in Cambodia I hit a landmine, a 70-pound landmine. It was right—took out the drive sprocket on my side. So, I was 5 feet above that. And it rocked us up, took my track off and everything. It knocked a couple of guys off. Everybody’s ears were bleeding but mine. I still have perfect hearing. Probably more than perfect. But I was back on the ground then. Interviewer: Okay. So, if you had been in the original driver’s seat down inside— �27 Veteran: If I had been in there, I would have…I don’t know. Interviewer: Have been killed or badly wounded. Yeah. Veteran: Probably. The closeness of it and everything, there is no place to go. Interviewer: Yep. (00:40:16) Veteran: But that’s why we were up on top. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, in the—so the big operation or whatever that you are involved in initially is that incursion into Cambodia that starts at the beginning of May. Now, did you have any kind of build-up or preparation for it? Did you have any idea that you were going to be doing it until the day it happened? Veteran: Maybe a day or so. Something like that. Interviewer: Okay. And did they tell you what you were doing or why you were doing it? Veteran: Well, we pretty much knew. We were still in the no-fire. I think it was still a no-fire zone. I remember the night before; it was dark when we got there. And they had us—they’d walk us, and they’d say, “Okay, 90 degrees. That’s Cambodia across that river.” So, we are sitting side by side like that and somebody said, “Well, there is…” “Well, no, they didn’t tell us.” But anyway, we heard movement. They said, “There is a little bridge out there, a footbridge, and it’s right out there.” I don’t know how far they said. Whatever and this and that and they said, “But that’s the only thing.” Well, there were Marines out there. And we heard the Marines and I guess I gave the command to open up with the 50. And of course, we were shooting through the Constantine wire that we had for protection on the front for RPGs. And one of them did catch a �28 fragment of the wire. One of them had to be dusted off anyway. We didn’t know they were out there. Interviewer: So, there were actually U.S. Marines there? (00:42:12) Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay because I thought the Marines were normally up north and not down in the Saigon area. But that’s where they told you they were? Veteran: It was dark and never saw anybody. It was just firing at the sound because they said there was a little bridge and that’s where it looked like they pointed from. But it was a—I don’t know how many down there, but they were U.S. Marines there, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, then do you go forward at daybreak? Or…? Veteran: Well, they were still putting the bridge together. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: A floating bridge. And I think it was about noon we started crossing that bridge. And I, at that time, I had—I was driving at that time. The 32-track. And I was the 5th one across that bridge that day. Interviewer: And how long was it before you hit the mine? Veteran: It was near the end of the day. We split up. I think half the battalion went south and half of us went north. And we would go through villages, and they were coming with arm loads of bananas and, I don’t know, anything that they had indigenous to them. They were just piling it up on the track. Just…it was crazy. �29 Interviewer: So, they were happy to see you? Veteran: Oh, it was just like it was like oh my word. Look at this and look at that. Smiling and the whole nine yards. And when we came back out two weeks later, our unit actually—we were there for two weeks. And you couldn’t give them a case of C-rations for a banana. It was—I mean, it was the Garden of Eden. When we went into Cambodia was what Vietnam used to look like. It was just like there’s a place in Arizona, Cave Creek. Up in that area there is like a mist. It’s like you’re just in someplace that you had never been before. And that’s the way Cambodia was when we went in there. Interviewer: Okay. (00:44:39) Veteran: But after the airstrikes and the B-52s, it was just bomb craters and it was just…it was hard to be in the skin. Interviewer: Okay. So, on that first day, was there any opposition, aside from the mines? Veteran: Oh yeah, there was all kinds of a lot of stuff going around. There was VC and NVA both encamped in those. And you didn’t know so everything was just being leveled. And there were a few that popped out and were killed. I only actually saw one U.S. casualty that day. But you are busy driving, you know, and you are trying to maneuver and this and that and stuff. You can’t really take in a lot of the other stuff. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, after you hit the mine, now what happens? Your vehicle is disabled. So, what happens to you when you and your squad then? Veteran: Well, I want to go back a little bit. Interviewer: Okay. �30 Veteran: Going to it, I was the 22nd vehicle in line. We were going down a two-track road. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And like I say, I was the 22nd one in line and there was one APC behind me. And I hit the mine. And Ron Siefer from Ohio was behind me, and he knew he was good, but he immediately pulled around us. And they said I was tracking. I was tracking like, you know, it wasn’t like I had drifted off, so it had to be either a step-down mine, which it clicks down so many times and then blows, or they detonated it. (00:46:42) Interviewer: Command detonated mine. Veteran: We never knew. Interviewer: So, you were tracking. It means you were following I exactly the tracks of the one in front of you. Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, people behind, everybody, and the guys on it, they said I was doing the right thing. Well, the whole company just kept on going. Our battalion. It would have been the battalion. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And Ron just pulled around and he says, “Here, let’s get the cables hooked up.” And he started hooking the cables up proper to tow me. And my track was blown apart, so it was—and it hung up on the rear bogie wheel and was dragging behind us, 10 or 15 feet beside us. So, that was like…And we are sitting on top. He’s towing us. And I am going if that thing hits a mine…and this and that. But we are following the…Well, actually, when he was driving it, we’d look—I looked back—and I saw deuce and a halfs. There was 4, 5, I didn’t know. It was so far �31 back. The doors came open and there were stars on the side. There was not supposed to be anything but mechanized armored vehicles. Interviewer: Okay. But the deuce and a half is just regular trucks. Veteran: Deuce and a halfs are not armored. And we didn’t know if an RPG was going to come our way. Turned out, I am reading—I found out in the last—actually, the last year—that there were actually retired rubbered vehicles that were there. But we didn’t know. But we just got in there and hauled ass. And finally got to the night laager where we were at. And the next day, they brought a sky hook. One of the big choppers brought that over into Cambodia and they picked my APC up and I watched it. Interviewer: Okay. So now what do you do? You lost your vehicle. (00:48:40) Veteran: Well, I had to go get on another one. And I remember we—they had a partially bombed out bridge over a river. And I have never really figured out where that was at yet. But we were left behind, I guess, because there were too many of us to go out or something. But we guarded that bridge. And the rest of them went out and they caught [unintelligible]. They were—it was some bad news that they got into that day. But I think we guarded that bridge. It must have been the two weeks that we were there. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And set up ambushes. That’s the first ambush. Well, it was the second one. I popped one. Somehow one of Papasan’s pigs had swum across the river and came and tripped one of our trip flares. And I don’t know. Well, I actually blew a Claymore on the pig. And the next morning, a hunter found it—or the farmer—found it on the other side of the river. And well, he ended up cooking it and invited us. �32 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You know, we killed his pig. I don’t know if we, if anybody, ever paid for it or not but… Interviewer: So, aside from the pig, were you left alone while you were there? (00:50:16) Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, kind of a quiet way to spend an invasion. Veteran: A 6 toed South Vietnamese general. He had 6 toes on each foot because they wore flip flops. And we had heard about him. And he come walking across that bridge one day. We just all kept looking at his toes. But we were just grunts, you know. It was…I don’t know what happened then. Interviewer: Okay. So, you are basically parked there for a couple of weeks and the rest of the battalion has moved on. Veteran: Well, they would go out on rifts and get into trouble and then come back. Interviewer: Okay, so they were still using the bridge? Or…? Veteran: We were on one side and the platoon was on the other. Interviewer: Okay. So, they are still kind of operating in that area at that point. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. And did you have any idea what was going on elsewhere? Veteran: We’d get bits and pieces when they’d get back in. They came back in. one they came back in firing. They were coming back from that bad and we were getting ricochet. We were �33 getting it friendly fire. And we hid behind the APC until they came and then turned into the night laager and that. But they were—one of the APCs hit a mine that took it up in the air and flipped it over and came down on its top. And I know the 50 gunner never got out. But we just didn’t talk about it… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: …that much. Interviewer: Alright. And so, you think you spent a couple of weeks there. And at that point, do you move on and advance farther into Cambodia? Or…? Veteran: We were only allowed 30 kilometers, I guess, or 30 miles or something. That’s all we could go in. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They stopped us before we could have really made a difference. But at the end of two weeks, we just went back to Camp Frenzell-Jones, I think. Firebase Frenzell-Jones. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now having done that, do you go back to just patrolling the area? Or what do you do next? (00:52:31) Veteran: Rubber plantations in the surrounding areas. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, were there particular rules and regulations for what you could do and not do on a rubber plantation? Veteran: Well, you weren’t supposed to damage any of the trees for sure. Because I found out, I don’t know if its true or not, Lady Bird Johnson owned those two plantations. �34 Interviewer: I don’t think she owned those. Veteran: That’s what I heard. Interviewer: Yeah. That might well have been the kind of thing somebody would say. Veteran: We didn’t know while we were there. I found—I heard it after I got home and that. But we’d go from Dau Tieng to Tay Ninh to one of the rubber plantations or whatever. We just moved around. We would have a cache of weapons and food. We had I don’t know how many tons of rice we captured. Nine-millimeter machine guns and things like that. But… Interviewer: So, you have—well, you are basically—you are patrolling, you are finding plenty of signs that there are enemy around. They have got all their caches, all their stores of stuff. But for the most part, were they not trying to fight you? Veteran: They’d take pot shots. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You know, just to make us think or whatever. And now and then, I don’t…I can’t say that I—I through a lot of ordnance down range. We had a mini gun mounted on our 50 turret. Interviewer: Okay, explain what the mini gun is. (00:54:14) Veteran: A mini gun is a top speed of 7000 rounds a minute. Run off batteries. It is a continuous belt. Every 7th round is a red tracer. Communists had green tracers, so we knew who was fighting—who was shooting at us. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And they knew who we were too by our tracers. �35 Interviewer: But a mini gun can put out a lot of lead fast. Veteran: We were called to the front to mow some brush down quite a few times. But being driving in this, you know, a majority of my time, I was driving. Because I eventually got another APC when a driver went home. I never took a bead on anything. I…it plague—I don’t know if it’s a plague or not but I don’t know if I ever killed anybody. I don’t know. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Like I say, I threw a lot of ordnance. I had an M-79 grenade launcher. On night laager, I’d—I kept them thinking. If there was anything out there, I kept them thinking. And nobody ever said anything. I’d shoot a case of grenades in a night, you know, while I was on guard duty and that. I don’t know, what was your question? Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay, and now do you basically stay with that unit your whole time in Vietnam? Or— Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you spend much time on the base at Cu Chi? Veteran: Near the end, I did. We did in—you say, some of the things we transported a lot. We— The Big Red One, 1st Air Cav…I can’t remember but we would transport units from one part of South Vietnam to others. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then come back and that. Had a lot of ARVNs. We would give them rides to different places and this and that. �36 Interviewer: Okay. And then, would you go in and out of Cu Chi when you are doing that? Or…? (00:56:21) Veteran: We’d most generally be out in the field when they came walking in and… Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: Gave them a chance to rest or whatever and that and then…We were in a—just—even though there was all this going on around. I just had tunnel vision, I guess. Interviewer: Yeah, you had a very small world that you were part of. Veteran: I—yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Did you see much of the Vietnamese civilians? Veteran: Oh yeah. When we went through the villages and that. They’d get on the back, open the back door and try and get stuff out and things like that. I remembered one time we stopped and chased them down a side street and thought what are we doing? This is stupid. So, we went back but… Interviewer: Alright. Sometimes people talk about people—are they trying to sell you things? Or prostitutes kind of following along and are getting in the vehicles. Any of those kinds of things happen? Veteran: Probably but not a lot. We were moving on. We did night laager at times near villages and that. And we’d sneak out to all the two-tracks, you know. We are going into the village, you know. So, they’d say, “Okay.” You know, they’d watch for us and stuff, whatever. But that was there, it was around, but I don’t…I don’t know much about it. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And were there drugs around? �37 Veteran: Yeah. Not out in the field so much. I mean, I know—I remember we’d smoke some marijuana, and they’d tell us—when they’d come around, the top would come around. We got some intel, you know, hold it down tonight. Yeah, okay. (00:58:27) Interviewer: Okay. So, would you sometimes do that in a night laager position or only when you— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. But not if you are out on an ambush patrol or something else like that? Veteran: No, not that I know of. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: But I mean, it’s…well. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Your awareness is…you get really aware when you are doing that. And it was I think somewhat of an advantage. Because it doesn’t mess you up, you know, other ways than that. Your awareness, like you know, even now shooting pool or doing some things like that, I mean you are—you just get tuned into it and it’s…I don’t know. Interviewer: Okay. So, in—because usually the assumption is that it can make you less prepared or less sensitive to things. Veteran: Probably could in civilian life, but when you are on—when you are on top of things, if you are not, you are… �38 Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, did you ever get an R and R while you were in Vietnam? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay. Did you know that that was a possibility? Veteran: I knew that we had a leave and that we had an R and R coming. And came up somehow a buddy of mine from New Jersey, we each got a leave, one week leave, so we says, “Okay.” So, we go to…I don’t even remember if that was Cam Ranh Bay where they flew out of there for that or not. But we were on leave. And we were in line, and they came up and they said, “We got two seats for Hawaii.” And we just stood there because that was for married. And they said, “We got two seats for Hawaii.” And we said, “Well hell, we’ll go.” Interviewer: Okay. (01:00:30) Veteran: Because we didn’t know where we was going to go. We didn’t know if we were going to Japan or Bangkok or—we had no idea where we were going. But we knew we weren’t going to Hawaii. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: But next thing we know, we are on a plane for Hawaii. And he says, “If they’ve got a flight going to New Jersey, I am going home.” We got in the terminal, and he said, “There it is.” And he went and got a ticket, and they actually stopped the plane on the tarmac and took a set of stairs out there and he got on the plane. And I watched him. I am going well, okay. And I look around: Detroit, nonstop. So, I bought a ticket. Called my sister, “Pick me up in Detroit.” “You are coming home?” “Yeah.” Well, everybody thought I was home for good. Interviewer: Yeah. �39 Veteran: I was only home for 5 days. They said, “Well, how long are you home? What are you doing now?” I said, “Well, I am going back to Vietnam.” They go, “What?!” I am going, “Well, I am AWOL right now.” I said, “You know, I could be in big trouble. I might not ever see Vietnam again if they put in brig or something like that.” But anyway, we met back up at the end of the time and I rented a motel, or a hotel room, and…Well no, I had rented a motel. I guess that’s when I got back. I rented a hotel because I remember that. But yeah, I was back on the block for—and that was around Halloween time because I brought a pumpkin back. And set it in the seat next to me and put the seatbelt around it. On everything, you know, from civilian, from Detroit, Michigan to… Interviewer: Maybe Seattle or someplace if you went by Alaska to go back? Or…? (01:02:29) Veteran: I don’t know. It might have been a nonstop to—I think it was a nonstop to Hawaii. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: I could be wrong but— Interviewer: But you mentioned that you flew through Alaska at some point. Veteran: That was on my final trip when I finally came home. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: We came in that way. Interviewer: But anyway, so you have gone and so you basically make it back to Vietnam pretty much on schedule? Veteran: Yep. �40 Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now how much time do you have left on your tour at that point? Veteran: That was around this time, and I left in February 15th so… Interviewer: About 4 months. Okay. Alright. Now, I don’t know, what was it like to go back to Vietnam after having been home? Veteran: Nothing. It was just—I—just going through the motions. Like I said, tunnel vision. I am doing what I am supposed to do and… Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: Just being a good soldier. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were those last few months any different from what you had experienced before? Veteran: Yeah. August 31st I was…actually, that would have been before I went back home. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Veteran: But I put that out of my mind. But that was the worst day of my life, was August 31st of ’70. And we rifted probably half the day, the whole company, for some reason. We were—we did a rift and that’s just traveling around, trying to kick up some incoming and… Interviewer: Yeah. (01:04:08) Veteran: …deal with it. And we had pulled up in this big wide space. It was bulldozed. You know, it was just—you could see for a long ways. And they pulled us online, all on one point, and we sat there, and I remember “Bridge Over Troubled Water” was playing on the bridge track �41 because we had a 60-foot bridge that traveled with us. And everybody is just kicked back, enjoying the song and this and that. And all of a sudden, they got a—we got a call that they wanted the lieutenant at headquarters. And they picked 33. At this time, I was driving 33 Track. And they wanted two and there was only two left out of our platoon or our squad. And so, I was leading, and they just told us, they said, “Well, you go down here,” because we had never been in that territory before; didn’t know where it was. It was pretty wide open and this and that, but some brush burns and stuff. And I remember I made a left-hand turn because the road took a 90. And as soon as I got my turn complete and started forward, I thought I had hit another landmine. Now, this is where my laterals were broken like 6 inches, so I was down inside driving off the actual gas pedal and all that stuff. And I thought I hit a—the explosion, I thought I hit another mine. So, I got up and started to come out of the turret or whatever the…I don’t even know what we called it. Interviewer: Oh, a hatch or whatever. (01:06:04) Veteran: But Sergeant Gilbert was right behind me, and he said, “Go!” so I went back down. So, when that RPG hit, there is two straps that run along each side of the—I got a bad shoulder here—each side that—you pull a lever, and the back tailgate falls down. Well, those straps are about this thick and that wide and whatever around. Well, we would take a case of each colored smoke grenades and slide the spoon into that behind that and then bend it down. So, up on top, guys could reach down and grab a color of whatever we needed. They were all there. And I would say there was about 100-150 grenades. When that RPG went through, the concussion set all of those grenades off at once. And I am down here. I was driving with my periscopes. When he said, “Go!” I still had my tracks. I didn’t, you know, I thought I hit a mine and I was dead in the water. Well, I wasn’t. I think those smoke grenades lasted for 7 minutes. I think. And when I �42 finally quit driving, they were done. And I stopped and I put it in park, turned the key off, and got up out of there and there was nobody there. There wasn’t a—nobody in sight. And I could see for a long way. I had no—I had—where in the hell am I going to go? I am out here in the middle of nowhere. My armored personnel carrier is on fire. Interviewer: So, when the smoke grenades went off inside it, were you separated from that? Or did you have smoke in there with you while you are still driving? (01:08:06) Veteran: I had to use the periscopes to drive. Interviewer: Alright. So, you are surrounded by smoke inside of this thing and you are just using periscopes to look outside to see where you are going? Because you can fit the periscope to your eyes, basically? Veteran: Well, it was a manual. It was there, stationary. It was just a square and… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And so, I am standing there, and I have got my—I didn’t have a shirt on. I am all—my weapons were—I had an M-60 mounted on my—in front of me. But you know, I wasn’t even thinking about it. I got off there anyway and I am thinking maybe I can get my duffel bag out of this thing. Because there is nobody around. Interviewer: So, the men who were on the APC, they are gone? Veteran: Some of them, a couple of them, got blown off. They—one got burnt pretty good. But— Interviewer: But nobody had ridden out there with you? Veteran: I assumed they were all there. I don’t know… �43 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I never did find out what happened to all of them. But I got—I guess I got greedy or whatever. I thought I could—I knew where my duffel bag is, so I climbed up on the track, on the—and looked over because we had the 4 by 4—I guess you would call it a…a sunroof or something. And that was always open when we were traveling and that. But I got up there and climbed up there and I looked down there and here was my 50 gunner, laying down there. And he was looking up at me. He was on his stomach, looking up at me. Just—he had been in all that smoke. And did not—had no idea what was going on with him. But he was mortally wounded. I knew he was a dead man. But I knew I had to get him out. And so, my duffel bag got—I was able to get him out. The hand grenades were starting to go off and, you know, and blasting caps. I don’t—it was just… (01:10:41) Interviewer: So, there was—okay, so the vehicle was still on fire at this point? Veteran: It burned to the ground. It burned down to the chassis. Well, they got the other, the one that was following me, before he made that 90-degree turn, they hit 50—an RPG hit the 50-turret dead on, and Jimmy Hepler was in that. And he didn’t make it. Interviewer: Okay. So, both vehicles got hit with RPGs there? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, now what happens to you? How do you get out of there? Veteran: I got Phil on the ground and his leg was just hanging on by his kneecap, one of his legs. And I tried to get him—because I got him in a bear hug. His entire back from his neck down to his belt, his organs, everything, were right there. And I got him in a bear hug, facing me, and got �44 him up and got him up over the side and I said, “If I can just get his leg…” You know, because he is in shock. He doesn’t know anything, I don’t think. And just as I got that, his leg got up there, he somehow turned around and saw it. He said, “Oh, my leg.” And this guy had two kids, he was married, is what he told me because we got a lot of time when we were at the night laager, just him and I pulling guard at night. He was an eccentric. Didn’t have a lot of things going on. Never knew that his first name was Charles. He went by his middle name Phil because he didn’t want them—because Charlie, Chuck, you know, that was the enemy. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:12:42) Veteran: Never knew that until about 5 years ago when I got some information off of a computer and it had his full name on there. I am going whoa, I didn’t—never knew that. But I turned coward that day. Because it wasn’t long but the company—or somebody from the company or platoon had—or battalion—had come and they stopped about 300 yards away because all they could see was wreckage and I was behind. And I heard them, I guess, but they stopped, and they are just going, you know, what are we going to do? And I says, “You get your—get over here.” And when Doc Dixon got there, I said, “Give him as much morphine as you can.” Because I had—I think he was on his back so the injuries other than his leg weren’t visible and that. But I didn’t stay with him. And I didn’t help go and put him on the Dustoff. I didn’t—I was afraid. I didn’t want to go. Even though my personnel carrier was on fire, and everything was going on, I was—I didn’t want to leave that spot. And somehow, I got on to another APC. I don’t know anybody on there or what, but I got a ride back to the rear, but I should have gotten onto that chopper with him. I should have been there. (01:14:31) Interviewer: You got him out of the vehicle, so that was the most important thing to do. And the doc was there. �45 Veteran: And that gives me a lot of relief. But I should have stayed with him because I don’t know if he was still alive when they got him onto the chopper or not. How he was even…how he was even alive, how he was like, I don’t know how. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, after that, was it not too long after that event—I guess it was a little while before you actually got to leave. Do you just—do they give you any kind of break after that? Or you just go to another APC and just go back to your usual business? Veteran: Business as usual. You just—so, you didn’t really try and get close to anybody because of that. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And I blocked that out of my mind for a long time, a lot of years. But see everything that I owned was in that duffel bag. My photo albums especially. When I came home, I had no— nothing to show anybody. Well, if they had—nobody ever asked me. My father. Nobody asked me anything about anything. Interviewer: Now had you been taking pictures in Vietnam? Or did you just bring stuff from home when you went over? Veteran: No, it was pictures that other guys—I didn’t do a whole lot of photography. But somebody took them and then they would have copies and pass them around and that. So, we had albums. I sent one picture—I was going to bring it today. But I got one picture standing beside my armored personnel carrier at Frenzell-Jones about two weeks before we went into Cambodia. And but I have nothing to reminisce. I have nothing. It’s an empty feeling because it was a very big part of my life, when it boils down to it. And I am an emotional basket [case] most of the time so… (01:16:52) �46 Interviewer: Alright. So, you got through that. And now, and basic—and then you basically go back to the regular business. You get your leave, you go to—you get home briefly, you come back. So, now after you are back, after you get back and you brought your pumpkin back, do you just go back to driving a track again? Veteran: I didn’t—that was a—the only two that I—I hit a landmine and then got ambushed. And I was a grunt back on the ground again. Interviewer: Okay. So, now you are just an infantryman again? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And still basically in the same area, conducting the same kinds of patrols? Veteran: Well, I didn’t find out until years later that my unit was being phased out. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We were starting to de-escalate. Because they weren’t replacing. We weren’t getting new equipment, this and that. They were just letting it—and actually, they decommissioned in…I spent more time in the rear. For some reason, I know I get up in the morning, go to morning formation, go to the motor pool, we’d get a deuce and a half full of empty barrels. And we would drive around the company area, kicking them empty barrels off and putting loaded ones on and then shuffling them up to the front and this and that. (01:18:24) Veteran: And that was our—by 10 o’clock, we were done. And we had inhabited some bunkers for hooches or something. We were living in those. I don’t remember how long. Things get fuzzy and that. We were in that position for a while. But it just really pissed me off because Phil, the �47 guy that was mortally wounded there…man, my head is going in so many different directions right now, I can’t pull one thought out of… Interviewer: Okay. Basically, you— Veteran: But…man, I can’t remember. Interviewer: Okay. Well, you were upset about something relating to what happened to Phil? Or…? Veteran: Oh. The day we went out, Phil had 6 days to go. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And he asked them if he could stay behind. And they said, “No. You are not only going out, but you are not the 50 gunner anymore. You’re on the 60 gun that had been mounted on a pole on the right side.” We were de-escalating. We were standing down, to a certain extent because of my unit—the 1st of the 5th Mechanized was being disbanded. Interviewer: You weren’t really even trying to win a war anymore, at that point. You are kind of— Veteran: We didn’t know. Interviewer: --killing time. Veteran: I didn’t know that until 4, 5 years ago, that I have gotten this information that has been on a computer of what my unit did that month. I have got it out in the vehicle. Interviewer: Yep. (01:20:34) �48 Veteran: They never should have sent him out there. Another one of my friends would have died but they put him in the 50 turret and put Phil out on the out. And especially finding out that they didn’t need him. They could have left him behind, you know. Six days. Interviewer: Alright. So, who is giving that kind of order? Is that the sergeant or is that an officer or do you not know? Veteran: Officers, I am pretty sure. I don’t think it was—I don’t know if it was talked about or not but when he came and—to join us—we were getting ready to go and he climbed on top and I think Dennis probably started to get out of the turret and he said, “No,” he says, “I am demoted. I’ve got to be over here.” Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And he was the only one on my track that was…basically the only one that was wounded. And Jimmy was cut in half. And Sergeant Robinson was trying to get him out and he couldn’t because he was still alive too and that armored personnel carrier was burning to the ground. Interviewer: Okay, so that was the other carrier? Yeah. Alright. Okay, what impression did you have of the officers that you dealt with? (01:22:11) Veteran: LT Decker was a piece of work. But he was doing the same thing because Sergeant Robinson hadn’t seen him going through the burn line. He wouldn’t have known where to go either because he was trying to rescue somebody. And everybody split. And they knew that Phil was down there. They had to have known he was down there. Because when I looked in there, I was being greedy. I was trying to get my stuff. And that…it… �49 Interviewer: Well…Alright. Okay, so I guess to back up a little bit kind of to look over this now, is there anything else that went on in the last few months there that kind of stands out in your memory? Or did you do anything that was different? I mean, or did you mostly now drive people around different places? Or did you— Veteran: No, I was doing the garbage. We were doing the company area garbage detail. And we would go to the dump, which was outside of Cu Chi. I did take a Jeep and take officers out in the bush a little bit. There is no escort. It was just me and the Jeep and him. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, there was not a threat. I don’t even know if I had a—I probably had a 45 with me and that would have been probably the only thing because my M-16, I threw that on a shelf in the APC and covered it up, because you had to turn it back in and I—it was a Mattel toy gun to me. It jammed in basic training. Well, we had it in basic and IT both. And with that spring going back and forth in there, I am going no, this is not a weapon that I have ever had. So, I had an M1, I had a M-60, I had an M-79 grenade launcher, and a 45 is what I relied on. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, as you get toward the end of your tour, are you kind of counting days or do you not really know when you are going to leave? (01:24:44) Veteran: I knew when I was leaving. I did not know anything about the early out. And when I got in line to come home, they told me I had to go get a haircut. I said, “Screw you.” Well, they weren’t going to let me on the plane, so I had to get a haircut and catch the next flight. And I don’t even remember what you asked me. �50 Interviewer: Alright. Well, I was—basically, I was just asking about that process for getting you home and how that worked. So, you basically have a date, and you get to go back to— Veteran: Yeah, I think I found—well, if I had gone back the day before, I would have had 150 days. But having to wait, get a haircut and wait for the next day, I had 149 days. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that was a definite ETS as soon as I hit Fort Dix. And… Interviewer: So, explain a little bit just—so basically, you are going to get—be able to get— out of the Army early? And so, why was that possible? Or what was going on then? Veteran: I don’t know. Anybody that had 150 days or less was in the jungle one day, on the block the next. No debriefing, no…not a damn thing. Interviewer: Okay, because normally if you had gone back the day earlier, you would have been sent to some base in the U.S. to kind of finish out your time? Veteran: I don’t—I might have, I might not have. But I think 150 days was it and I would have been right on the… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: …right on it at that time there. But… Interviewer: Alright. So, at what point do you find out you just get to leave the Army? Was that when you got to Fort Dix? Or…? (01:26:40) �51 Veteran: I knew it, I think, before we left Vietnam, but not very far. Because that would have meant—you wouldn’t want to know that because that would have been even more of a bad luck charm on your or something like that. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, this was—so, when you are flying home, this was the time that you think that you go through Alaska and then come back? Veteran: I think we went to Japan. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: And then Alaska, and I think we went straight to Fort Dix. And that was weird because coming from that way, whatever, people wonder why I went to Fort Dix but that’s just where we went. Interviewer: Well, a great circle route. You fly over Canada. Veteran: And then the buddy that had jumped ship in Hawaii and went home lived there. He actually came and picked me up. He had gotten home a month earlier and he came, him and his girlfriend, came and picked me up. I had fallen asleep. There was nobody in the room. Everybody had disembarked; they were gone. And he had to come and find me, wake me up and say, you know, “Here we go.” And I ended up spending a week there, trying to, I guess, debrief. Because I was—I am, you know, had to get that haircut. So, I am sticking out like a sore thumb. I didn’t have anybody—well, I was in civilian clothes. So, I didn’t get any of the spitting and things like that. But people looked at me and they could probably tell by my haircut. But I hung out there for a few days, a week it was. My parents had saved Christmas for me when I got home. (01:28:35) �52 Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And I told them I wasn’t going to be there for another week and oh, they were mad. They were—I don’t know if they ever forgave me for that, but it was February 15th. And I just knew that I needed some time. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: I needed to do something. So, I did. And I don’t know if it helped or not. Didn’t really but… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Went back and of course they wanted me to go to work. Go back to work. My family was…They had bought the old feed mill in town and put a hardware store in there and a lumberyard out back. And—well, they wrote me and had written me in Vietnam and wanted to know if I wanted to be a part of it. I thought hell yeah, we’d been doing that for—home improvements—for some—from the time I was 14 or less until the time I went in. I, you know, and I said, “Well yeah. I want to see that grow and that.” Interviewer: So, is that what you did then when you got back is you went to work for the family? Veteran: I drew unemployment for a couple of months. I was…I don’t know. I have always been weird and doing my own—doing different things and whatever. But I finally went to work and a year and a half later, I had worked for the IBW before I got drafted. And you have a year to reclaim your job before—after you get back. I think it’s a year. But about a year and a half into it, I plumbed a new house that we had built, and my uncle praised my—a friend of mine, who �53 was a co-worker—he said, “Hey, you did a nice job on that.” You know, he says, “I didn’t do the plumbing,” he says, “I did the electrical.” He said, “Well, who did the plumbing?” and he said, “Well, Roger.” Well, a couple of hours later, my uncle came on the job site because my uncle and my dad went together in this whole venture. And he came in and did a walk through to see how we were doing because we were doing the drywall. I mean, we were—we built the houses from… Interviewer: Yeah. (01:30:56) Veteran: …the basement up. And he started to leave. Went out and he was going through the garage, and I went out and said, “Hey Uncle Les. How come you didn’t give me an atta boy pat on the back, you know, for that?” “You’re family. You’re expected to do that.” Interviewer: Oh. Veteran: And he fired me. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: He fired me for doing a good job and me just saying, hey, you know. Two weeks ago, he had told Chuck this and…But he fired me. And I lost out on my seniority for the IBW because I could have gone—that first year, I could have gone and had four years. It basically would have been four years of…But that was gone. And I just dropped out. I dropped out. My dad said, “Well, we can go back to insulating and roofing and windows and siding.” And I did that for a while, but I said, “I am crawling around in 100, 150-year-old houses in the attics and that’s not a fun thing, you know, and then all of a sudden here we are building brand new houses.” And I said…And a group of us, four of us, just went to Colorado. Stayed there for six weeks or so and in the meantime, I had went to Arizona to visit my sister. We spent Christmas in Arizona, came �54 back to Colorado and my buddy’s wife was going to take the kids away from him if he didn’t come back home. So, I rode back with him, got my car, went back out there. Blew my engine going into Boulder. They replaced the engine, because it was under the warranty, and made it back down to Phoenix and spent New Year’s in Phoenix again. Christmas in Phoenix— Interviewer: Yep. (01:32:58) Veteran: --New Year’s in Phoenix but…But why am I talking about that? Interviewer: Well, basically we just kind of followed up. Now, did you have kind of a long—a longer career doing something? Did you find regular work for a while that you liked? Or…? Veteran: I had 23 jobs from the time I got out of ‘Nam until they took me out of the truck for sleep apnea, which I don’t have. But in 2006, I was 56, or—I was 56 years old. I haven’t worked since then. Interviewer: Okay. So, you were a truck driver for a while? That was the last thing you did? Veteran: I was driving truck. Michigan trained. Best job I ever had. Driving doubles and that. But I kicked around for several years, and I had driven truck. I started driving truck at 14 with a moving van, all around. I had been in 37 states—38 states since before I graduated high school. So, I kind of got back into that and then I don’t know if you have heard of a company in Allegan, they do health and beauty aids. I had gotten married and got a job working there. (01:34:22) Veteran: So, I drove truck for them for 8 years and then I went into management in the warehouse. They had a bid and I said—and I thought I could change things and make things �55 better, which I did, but they didn’t like that. I didn’t do it right. I was just a truck driver. I didn’t know how to do all that whatever. But I was there 14 years all together. And then they started getting crappy and I just said, “I am not putting up with this.” Come to find out, I was the second one of 100 supervisors that they got rid of that year because they were downsizing. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I didn’t know that for two years because I was the second one and I was in a satellite warehouse, away from the main stuff. So, we were kind of out of it. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: So, I went back to driving truck. And mostly, but companies would sell and get rid of everybody or they—different things and that. But I had 23 taxable jobs after I got out of Vietnam. Interviewer: Alright. And this is the kind of thing where you look back. I mean, the time in your service, clearly there were a lot of negative consequences of that. I mean, you got sort of the PTSD type issues and— Veteran: That’s only the tip of the iceberg. Interviewer: Yeah, and the jobs— Veteran: I would have paid to get out of Vietnam. Interviewer: --and the rest of it and that kind. Do you think there was anything positive for you, in terms of your service time? Did you take anything good out of it? Veteran: Well, the problem is is I took too many things from it and applied it to daily life, not knowing it really but there are things that work that can be done in civilian life that if you do it, �56 like washing dishes and this and that, the procedure that we went through, it was, you know. Well, I would try to help with housework. I had two sisters and I was the youngest and I did the outside work. I never was—I never made a bed, I never did anything like that in the house. I did the—fed the animals and all that. So, I didn’t know too much about that stuff. I knew about it, but I didn’t physically know how to do it or whatever. Didn’t desire to do it. (01:36:56) Interviewer: And did you learn some of that kind of thing in the Army? Or the Army way of doing those things? Veteran: Yep. Well see, I didn’t—I lost my job as platoon guide because of my lack of, you know, not straight enough. You know, I just didn’t do stuff. I lived on a farm for crying out loud. When you unhooked a piece of machinery, you left it there until you needed it the next season almost. You know? There was no order. You just grease it up and go. Yeah, I am just… Interviewer: Okay. Well, I did ask you was there a positive element to the service time for you or in the— Veteran: Yeah. These days, what’s going on these days, I don’t know if I would have gone. I don’t agree with a lot of things that are going on. And—but yes, there’s a lot of things that they teach you in the military. I mean, if it’s not—it’s got to be right. You know, they can’t be doing things wrong and be—excuse me. Yeah. And I think I carried that into—I lost my family. I got married a second time. I had two daughters with the first marriage and two with the second. Raised a stepdaughter. And I thought all these years, I thought I was doing good. (01:38:35) Veteran: But in fact, my stepdaughter, shortly after she—or about a year—after she graduated high school, because she moved out the next day. And she called me, and she brought chills to my spine. I actually started—I teared up. She said, “Dad,” she says, “we didn’t really care for the �57 way you raised us.” She said, “But you did a good job.” She says, “I know now.” You know? And it just like…wow. That’s—that kept me going for quite a while, to have her say that. Because we weren’t all that close or anything. But I appreciated that. But I just thought, you know, things worked. But in the military, you told somebody to do something, and they did it. You know, and the girls were just—had their heels dug in. Interviewer: Yeah. Mine were the same way. Veteran: And it caused friction and right now, to this day, I haven’t talked—I live within 10 miles of 4 of them. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And the other one is in North Carolina, but she is the only one I talk to, because she needs help. But the other ones… Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: They don’t want to run into me. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. To kind of look back over the—your military history or career, is there anything else you want to add on the record before we close out the interview? (01:40:16) Veteran: Well, I had an issue with payroll. Three months after I was in ‘Nam, they started paying me as an E-2. I wasn’t even supposed to be in the field. E-1s weren’t supposed to be in country to start with, I believe. Interviewer: Yeah. You are supposed to be an E-2 automatically once you go over. Veteran: Well, I had been busted to E-1 in Oakland. �58 Interviewer: Yeah. Right. Veteran: So, when I go there, they paid me as an E-1. Three months later they started paying me as an E-2 and I went to top. We were out in the night laager, and I says, “Top,” I says, “I haven’t—I didn’t get any orders for this.” He said, “Well, you better go back, go to the rear and get it straightened out.” So, the next chopper, I went back to the rear. And I went in and said, “Hey,” you know, I went to the finance clerk. “I didn’t get any orders for this.” He said, “Oh,” he said, “They’ll catch up with you. You are an E-2. Go back out in the field.” Okay. I go back to the field, and I look around and there is not as many carriers around and there is people missing. They got into a big one. Three months later, they started paying me as an E-3. I went to top. I says, “Top, I haven’t even gotten my E-1’s yet.” “Well, you better go to the rear and straighten it out.” So, I go to the rear, clerk tells me the same damn thing. “You’re an E-3. An E-2—or an E-3 now—go back out in the field.” So, back out in the field I go. Three months later, they start paying me as an E-4. And I still haven’t gotten any orders. I go to top. Oh, when I got back the second time, less armored personnel carriers, different people. They had gotten hit—they had got into some scunion. The fourth, I says, “I didn’t get orders.” He said, “We’re going back.” He pulled the whole company up. We went back to the rear. He said, “We are not—every time you leave, we catch hell.” I didn’t do anything. (01:42:36) Interviewer: Well… Veteran: Well anyway, next payday, and we got paid in cash out in the field, they gave me $13 and a note. “Come to finance.” And that’s—that was—and I don’t know if they pulled up then or not. Maybe I was in the rear. So, I go in there and they said, “You are a private E-1. You owe the government $1200. And until you pay that money, you will not get out of Vietnam.” And I am going, what the hell? Well, the JAG office was one hooch over. But they had boardwalks about �59 like this. And it was monsoon time. Well, I came out and went to the end, got on this sidewalk to head over and go to the JAG office. There’s a 4-star general walking. The only one around is a 4star general walking down. And he was on his tiptoes on the side of that when I walked past him. And he said, “You don’t salute an officer, troop?” and I said, “Not anymore.” And he says, “Well, what’s the matter?” he says, “Wait a minute. What’s going on?” I said, “Well…” I told him the story. He said, “I’ll fix…” Well, he ended up getting me an E-3 but I still had to write home and get six—because I had sent my money home, most of it. I had to get $600 sent to me in the mail and pay that $600 back before they would—or they wouldn’t have let me out of Vietnam. I should have tell them to take it out of my hide if you want it or whatever, and this and that, because I was going to buy a stereo, you know. I had that money that I was going to do something with. And that turned me about as bitter as anything there. (01:44:33) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: It’s just money but… Interviewer: Yeah. But they mess up your life in enough other ways, and then they want you to pay them for it. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Alright. Well, the whole thing makes for a pretty remarkable story. And I appreciate your willingness to share that. It is part of why we do this, to understand what actually happens to ordinary people who wind up in these places. And you have done a good job telling it at the end so thank you very much. Veteran: Thank you. I…I am doing anything and anything to get—I am being greedy again because I am trying to heal myself. After all these years, you know, 50 years…It took 46 years �60 for me to find out that I even had benefits coming. They don’t tell you if you don’t ask, or if we don’t tell each other… Interviewer: Yeah. Right. Veteran: So… Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And they haven’t done anything I don’t think for PTSD or Agent Orange in the last 50 years. Interviewer: Well… Veteran: I am putting myself out there and going to groups. I have been in, I think, 12 group therapy sessions. I spent 6 weeks in Battle Creek. One of the last classes they had for PC— PTC—PCT… Interviewer: PTSD, yep. Veteran: Well, they have a PCT clinic. I think it is PCT clinic. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: For PTSD but I spent 6 weeks there, just trying to fit in or whatever, and this and that. Being around other veterans is just a natural calming. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:46:17) Veteran: For that, but I have said—I don’t know how many psychologists I have seen. Psychiatrists kick me out. So, I have seen many psychologists. I am seeing one once a month now. Two of them actually. And anything I can get, anything I can grab. I have lost everything in �61 my life. I have been a failure in everything in my life. And being in the military, that has been the most constant. That’s an everyday thing. I am constantly back and forth from Vietnam. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And places in between. And… Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: I don’t think I would have ever enlisted. If I hadn’t been drafted, I doubt that I would have enlisted. But I did what they wanted me to do and… Interviewer: You are doing what you can now to get some control over it, which is a legitimate thing to do. Alright then… Veteran: And Vietnam veterans were committing suicide at 70 a day back in—when I did that clinic thing. Now it is down to I think 30-something. I don’t understand that. I mean, I can. I can. If it doesn’t go through our minds once a day or more, it’s…it is just—it’s always right there. Interviewer: It’s a reminder on some level that war is a bad business. And it does bad things to people. (01:48:04) Veteran: Yes. But we have got to revisit it. We have got to go in and hash it over because each time I do it, I don’t know if I feel better or not, but I have been able to help other veterans in the group because we will sit around there and look at each other for…and I just start talking. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: I say, “You know, if we are here…and I apologize, tell me to—” and they say, “No, go for it. Go for it.” �62 Interviewer: And you can also help ones who are younger than you are, because they are actually—I will bring the younger veterans together with the Vietnam guys and, you know, you have a lot in common with them. And they know enough to respect you, take you seriously. Veteran: It was a strange enough war that it stands out and it always will. Things were different for…on almost every plane, everything that was going on. Interviewer: Yeah. And I mean— Veteran: And…yeah. But I bend over backwards for these guys that are stepping up. When the veterans quit coming home, this country is already in deep doodoo. We have got a window right here with the president that is going on. I believe it is the only window that we had to keep our country somewhat sane. And it is being done. And yeah, I am afraid how it is going to go if we don’t get a handle on it right now. We got very few years left to get the train back on track as much as we can. Interviewer: Alright. Alright, I think that makes for a pretty good closing statement so thank you. Veteran: You’re welcome. (01:50:06) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HealyR2338V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Healy, Roger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-10 Title A name given to the resource Healy, Roger (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Roger Healy was born in Allegan, Michigan in 1949. He attended high school in Gobles, Michigan and graduated in 1967. Roger was drafted into the Army on July 15th, 1969. He completed his basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky. He did his advanced individual training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. Roger became a part of the infantry and attended part of non-commissioned officer (NCO) school at Fort Benning, Georgia, before deciding that it was not for him and leaving NCO school. After quitting NCO school, Roger was sent to Vietnam in February 1970. He was assigned to the 25th infantry division, 1st of the 5th mechanized, based out of Cu Chi, Vietnam. Roger drove armored personnel carriers in his unit. His first armored personnel carrier was destroyed after hitting a landmine and his second was hit with an RPG and burned to the ground. He was part of the incursion into Cambodia. During his time in Vietnam, Roger was involved in various skirmishes. He returned home from Vietnam in February 1971. Roger is currently involved in a Vietnam veterans’ group in Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/395f146c2e577d64f9af845ca9155286.mp4 6bc47e46ddb822b2e7f6117523adc8f2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ebd560f5d257f57cd0f72372dd4b133c.pdf 414e899a9d29bf231d2d60ca29cacdd4 PDF Text Text Heath, Robert Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Afghanistan War Interviewee’s Name: Robert Heath Sr. Length of Interview: (2:28:57) Interviewed by: Koty Leroy Rollins Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “Hello my name is Koty Leroy Rollins of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project, I’m here with Robert Heath of Allendale, Michigan and let’s go ahead and jump into it. So we’ll start off easy, where and when were you born?” So I was born September 18th, 1979 in Chicago, Illinois. Interviewer: “Alright, what was your early life like?” (00:51) Lot of moving around, my father was in the Army and so we moved to Germany, we moved to South Carolina, then we wound back in the Chicagoland, northwest Indiana area, and that’s where I graduated high school, in Merrillville. Interviewer: “Okay, when you were a military brat you lived in Germany, how old were you?” So we moved to Germany when I was seven, almost eight and then we lived there for about three, three and a half years from ‘87 to summer of ‘90. Interviewer: “Were you living on a base or were you living out in town?” Yeah we did a little bit of both, when we first got over there there wasn't base housing available so we lived in Hamburg, my dad was stationed in Vilseck so we lived in Hamburg for about six months and that was a really interesting experience because I spoke no German when I went and �Heath, Robert so learned how to play with the kids and go out and everything but it was a lot of fun, learned how to play games. Got some friends who spoke enough English and then I learned enough German so that we can make it happen and so we spent about six months on the economy and then we moved back in– On to base in, I want to say, about the winter of that year. Interviewer: “Okay, and was that a huge culture shock going from that life on the town to like the more structured military base life?” It wasn’t so much of a culture shock there just because as a kid it’s not that structured right, like you go to school, you come home, you live in a neighborhood, it’s the same idea. It was actually cool because my parents, when we lived in Hamburg it was about a half hour drive back and forth so they had a half hour commute, whereas now it was like five minutes from dad getting off to dad getting home so it was a lot cooler because we got to see him a lot more. Interviewer: “That’s pretty awesome. Do you know what your dad did in the Army?” (2:35) Yeah he was a supply sergeant so he, he did a lot of– I remember one of the things that he talked about was, because we left right in June, July time frame of 1990 which was the run up to Desert Storm and so he was sitting there and he’s like “Why are we sending all these tanks to, you know Saudi Arabia? What’s the point in that?” Because all of that was going through EUCOM and going through Germany and so he was like, he was in charge of a whole bunch of Abrams tanks and then– I can’t remember the second one, the second something with a bravo in it. Anyway, he was in charge of all of those and one of the cool things growing up as a kid was he could get us into– You know like I remember he got access for my class and my teachers and everything we took a field trip to the simulator so all of our classmates got to go and run through the simulators and be, you know the captain and all the rest of that type of stuff and the gunner and we got to simulate fire and on targets and all the rest of that type of stuff, it was a lot of fun. Interviewer: “That’s pretty awesome. How long was your dad in the Army?” �Heath, Robert He stayed in for 11 years, he wound up being a drill sergeant down in Fort Jackson and we wound up getting out a little shortly after that. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you– Was that when you moved to Chicago?” That was when we moved back home, yeah and then my dad he got into trucking, he actually owned a trucking business for a while and wound up getting out of that when the downturn happened in the late 90s, mid 90s. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah so did that have a big impact on your life, the military?” The military was a– Was a tremendous impact on my life, I remember looking back at my kind of my childhood years. That was the time that I felt kind of most– It was the best group of years when I look back at my childhood and I think a lot of it had to with the fact that there was kind of a homogenous community of not necessarily races or you know ethnicities, but because of the fact that everybody was moving towards the same target. (4:42) You had a group of Army spouses, Army soldiers and then Army kids so we all knew what– We lived the same life and had the same experiences. Interviewer: “Yeah, and I guess that was pretty different once you were going to high school.” Yeah it was a completely different thing and high school was interesting too because like I said I’m from Chicago, all my family’s in Chicago, we lived in Merrillville which is about 30 minutes outside Chicago just across the Indiana border but all of my social life was Chicago so high school was kind of a split experience. Interviewer: “Yeah, so what’d you do after high school?” So then I went to college at the University of Illinois down in Champaign Urbana and I graduated a little bit early. So I graduated when I was 16 so I went down to college at Chambana �Heath, Robert and then I studied and got my degrees in economics and speech communications with a minor in Spanish. Interviewer: “Okay, so when did you decide you wanted to join the Marines?” That came a lot later actually, I had always wanted to serve in the military but always tell everybody when I graduated college I was not military material, I was not in the place where anybody was going to be telling me to do anything and so I graduated in 2001 and I wanted to impact and be able to have an impact on community– On my community and to give back. So I went and got a master’s degree in teaching, I taught Spanish and coached basketball for six years and really the Marine Corps came about, as I call it, during my quarter life crisis period. I went through and I was looking at some of the things that I had wanted to do in my youth, I was about 27 when I decided to join and things that I had wanted to do and that I wasn’t able to do or that I didn’t complete for whatever reason because I wasn’t disciplined enough, because I didn’t care enough, because I didn’t want to go through all the red tape to do whatever it was and I decided that wasn’t going to be the case anymore and I had always wanted to serve in the military but like I said I had to become ready to serve in the military. (6:40) Interviewer: “Yeah, you weren’t quite up to taking orders yet.” Yeah you can’t really be anti-authoritarian and serve in an organization where you gotta follow orders, it just doesn’t work. So at that point in time I looked at my life and I said, you know there were a couple things I had always wanted to do that I hadn’t done yet. I’d always wanted to go to law school, I’d always wanted to– And to become a lawyer and I’d always wanted to be in the military and so I went and I saw a recruiter and it was actually happenstance I was– I had a bit of bronchitis, I was at a clinic getting checked out and there’s a recruit office right next to that office and I was in this moment. So I was like “Hey let me go and walk over and see what the Marines got to say.” So I walked over and this was actually an enlisted recruitment station but the RS just happened to be there so he came in and he talked to me about the officer programs and he was like “Oh you’re interested in law and you want to be a Marine Corp officer? We’ve got a program for that.” And so he got me set up with the OSO out in Murfreesboro, this is when �Heath, Robert I was living down in Memphis, Tennessee and so he got me set up with the OSO officer selection officer down in Murfreesboro and we started the work to become a Marine Corps officer and it took a while because I was not in the shape I needed to be in to be a Marine. Interviewer: “So did they have to put you in like a special program for that because I know for the enlisted they have the delayed entry program where they sort of fine tune you into– ” Yeah, no there’s not a– You’re called a pool lee, so you’re in the pool of people who are thinking about being officers and I stayed in that pool for the better part of a year but it’s really you doing the work because on the officer side a lot of it is them– The whole goal is it’s a screening process until you get designated as someone who can actually be an officer. So all the way before officer candidate school and through officer candidate school the concept is not we’re gonna make you into a Marine the concept is are you good enough to lead Marines, and so there’s programs or there’s groups, like there’s group runs, there’s workout programs and all the rest of that type of stuff that the officer selection office will attach you to. (8:57) One of the things that I did that was extremely helpful to me and I appreciated the camaraderie and the help that I got, the University of Memphis has a Navy ROTC program and so they do, you know workouts in the mornings, PT just like any other unit and so they allowed those of us who were part of the pool who were wanting to become officers to go and work out with the ROTC group so I was able to get in shape and work out with those groups and then I did workouts on my own as well to just kind of improve and get better. Interviewer: “That’s actually kind of funny because when I was going through my A school I was in the Navy and I worked out with the Marines because they were the ones that were actually working out whereas the Navy guys were just kind of like lazy, that is pretty funny though.” It was interesting because there were four ability groups and what you saw– Because it’s a Navy ROTC program so you got the Marines and the Navy all together in the ROTC program but what you would generally see is that ability group one, ability group two was full of Marines and then �Heath, Robert there were the Navy guys who wanted to be SEALs or wanted to be submariners or wanted to be a nuclear tech, and then ability group three, and ability group four were full of a lot of the Navy ROTC regulars and so it was interesting because I started out, when I first went there they were like “Here run with ability group four we’ll see where you are.” And then I moved to ability group three and then I was making my way up to ability group two when I was getting ready to go to officer candidate school because just the standards are so much different. In the Marine Corps like for officer candidate school in order to get in to get selected you have to run three miles in less than 24 minutes. Now that’s just to get there, what you see is most of the people that are there run it in 18, 19, 20 minutes, you might have a 21. I was the guy that was still bottom of the barrel pushing it because I was doing, I think my best time pre-ship was 22:46, 22:45 so like I was under the 24 minute mark but I was still not fast and my best time ever was 22 minutes so I never really got fast in long distance, but I was really good like I could do my pullups, I could do crunches, I could do anything short distance and I could carry a pack a long way so I was good that way. Interviewer: “So before we jump into your OCS experience I do have to ask, why the Marines, why not the Army?” (11:13) That’s a great question, I actually sat down with my dad and part of what led me into revisiting serving in the military is I wanted to be a better leader. As a teacher one of the things that I saw that really bothered me was the high attrition rate in the teaching profession and when you think about it right we’ve got these people who have a passion for helping young people and helping young people to grow. Most teachers I knew had grown up their entire lives wanting to be teachers, that was what they wanted to do any they wanted to, you know help their society, help their community, and the attrition rates were, you know 50% of teachers leave before five years, 80% of teachers leave before ten years and what I noticed was a lack of leadership. It wasn’t that the teachers weren’t good in their professions, that they weren’t good at dealing with the kids, but what you saw was from the administrative perspective administrators in our schools across the country really struggle because normally you’ve got an administrative staff of about four or five administrators tops that are running a hundred teachers. So you know if you break that down you’re looking at 20 personnel per administrator right and so they’re overwhelmed and they’re �Heath, Robert not really taught a lot how to deal with– How to deal with their peers, how to lead those people, and how to lead them effectively and something that I’ve noticed and now with what I do I see it everywhere but at the time I saw it and I was like if this profession where you’ve got people who love the work, who are comfortable taking a sacrifice in how much money they can make and all the rest of this type stuff to do this work and they’re leaving at such crazy rates right, what does the rest of the country look like, what does the rest of you know the things that we’re doing for societal good what does that look like and what does leadership look like, and I knew if I wanted to be able to have the type of impact in society that I wanted to have, because I wanted to be– Eventually I was on the track to becoming the superintendent because I thought that, you know schools were a place where we can make a positive impact in society, and what I saw was the school system in general didn’t have the infrastructure that it needed to be as good as it could be and to impact society. So that was kind of how I went and realized I needed to first understand how the systems work, how we decided our laws, how we design these systems, where our levels of power are in society, and then I also need to be a better leader and the Marine Corps is the greatest leadership academy in the history of the world and that was one of the things, interestingly enough my father was the person who recommended me going to the Marine Corps. (13:50) Story that went behind that he was like “So what do you want from your service? You want to join the military, what do you want to do?” And I told him, I was like “I want to be challenged physically, I want to be challenged mentally, and I want to learn how to lead people, large groups of people, to do great things.” And so he, you know he looked he said “Son here’s the deal, you want to be taken care of, your family taken care of, and have a good life, the Navy and the Air Force they take care of their officers, they have really great experiences, it’ll be great you can join those. If you want, you know to be able to see the world and go lots of different places the Army is an awesome place, I mean it’s got lots of bases and you’ll get promoted pretty– Relatively quickly and you’ll get a decent challenge as an Army officer, you know physically and all the rest that type stuff, but if you want to walk into a room full of service people and everybody in the room know that you’ve done some stuff and know that you earned your title, you want to join the Marine Corps.” And that was it, I was sold. Interviewer: “Alright, so what was OCS like?” �Heath, Robert Oh wow, yeah so by the time I got to OCS I was 29 years old, so I– Interviewer: “What year was that?” This was 2009, I was almost 30 so my birthday’s in September, I was going to turn 30 that September. I got selected for officer candidate school in March of 2009 and I shipped at the end of May 2009 and so that was an interesting ten weeks. It was by far the hardest thing that I had ever done physically but what was more difficult I think was the mental strain, because the way OCS or officer candidate school is set up is it’s a screening and evaluating school. Their job is to train you but also to screen and evaluate whether or not you can lead Marines, whether or not you can be trusted with the privilege of leading Marines and so the entire time you’re aware of the fact that you can go home at any time. If at any point in time they feel like you’re not good enough or you don’t cut it, you’re not ready, whatever the case may be you can go home and that’s the way they do it and so every day you’re under that constant kind of pressure. Which for me right, I was as old as I could be in the program that I was in, so I didn’t have a come back next year type of attitude or idea. (16:10) I would age out and so then I would have to go into– I’d have to wait till I got out of law school and then I’d have to go back after I graduated law school and then I would have to get an age waiver and some other stuff, like there was a lot of paperwork and it was basically I was either making it this summer or I wasn’t making it and so that coupled with the fact that I was in a, what they called a platoon leaders course. So the majority of people in my platoon were 18,19, 20 year old sophomores, juniors in college who the reason that they do this course is because they can get through and get screened and then when they graduate they can commission, it’s almost like a delayed entry program and so I’m in the age cohort of some of the most in shape people but I’m on the upper end of that cohort and I’m not great at distance running. Now I was in shape for every– Like I was in the top of my platoon in everything we did that was short, so if it was the obstacle course, you know if it was the short martial art stuff all the rest of that type stuff, I had been a martial artist for, at that time, about ten years. So anything that we were doing in those realms I was good, but all of the stuff that was distance and endurance I wasn’t, like I said I ran a 22 to 46, not super fast, like don’t get me wrong we’re running 7–7:15 mile pace but nonetheless when you got guys that are running 19 minute three miles and 18 minute– One guy in our platoon used to run cross country in college �Heath, Robert and he ran like a 16:20 three mile, it was just stupid. Right so you’ve got that big a gap so OCS was a lot of– For me it was physically challenging and the physical challenge of it and the fact that it wasn’t easy physically for me created more of a mental challenge. Interviewer: “Yeah, and did you feel like pressured to perform well with all these, I mean relative kids?” Yeah, it was– There was definitely a lot of kind of Malcolm Gladwell and David and Goliath calls it relative deprivation right. So even though I was fast comparatively to the other 29 year olds my age right or in the country, in this group I was one of the worst runners. Now interestingly enough I wasn’t the worst runner, I was one of the worst runners, but what it did is it put me into a position where I wasn’t assured of victory, quote unquote, I wasn’t assured I didn’t know that I was gonna make it, I actually had to work to make it, I had to earn it and that was something that was new to me from the perspective because I had never challenged myself up until that point at that level right. I had done martial arts, I had been a national champion in martial arts, but in my arena generally it was one of those types of things where I was more athletic, more coordinated, better situated than a lot of the people I went up against. (19:09) So I went into it knowing I was good and I was going to make it, and what was interesting here was I knew how to lead, I knew how to be successful at doing things so all of the– Like I had one of the highest GPAs in the platoon because we took– You got graded on academics, on leadership, and on physical fitness right, leadership and academics I never had a problem about, never had to think about but there were some physical fitness challenges that I wasn’t sure I was gonna make like and that was one of the things that was interesting and that was the first time that I had been involved in something where I wasn’t sure if I was good enough, and so you know that was stressful but it was, on the flip side of it, it was one of the best things that happened to me because going through that experience right it shows you what you can do and how you can dig deep and how you can work harder and to be better and that’s what I was able to do. Interviewer: “Yeah, so what all does OCS consist of? Is it– Are you staying in a barracks while you’re doing this? Are you–” �Heath, Robert Yeah OCS is basically– A lot of people when you look at recruit training right OCS is a little bit different than recruit training in that every weekend after the first three weeks you get one– You get 24 hour period of liberty whereas in recruit training there’s no liberty for the entire 13 weeks that they’re in right, but the interesting thing about that is that’s a test. It’s not designed as free time, it's actually a test and there’s a number of people who got sent home because they would go out and get drunk on liberty and then come back later. They would do all the stuff that– And so the liberal period is actually a test to see how you handle freedom right, and it’s so crazy how everything is set up. So you stay in a barrack, you have squad bay with your platoon and you have to field day every Sunday when you come back from libo just like, you know everything else and we clean everything, you wake up, you muster just like everybody, get online and do your accountability, everybody gets out the door, it’s the same thing I was actually in charge of– My squad was in charge of the head so every night, basically every morning, 04:30 right muscle is at 05:00 so 04:00-04:30 we were up cleaning the head making sure it looked good, making sure it was clean and getting everybody through and then when we left the house we’d have to make sure that nobody had left anything as well. (21:30) So we did that every day for the entire time and you go– You’ve got classes during the day so you’re marching to class and taking classes, learning how to be like learning the basics of what it is to be a marine, learning the basics of the M-4– I’m sorry the M-16, A-4 service weapon and you’re doing everything to learn how to be a Marine but then you’re also going through and we’ve got PT multiple times a day, you’ve got field ops so we would go out to the field a number a various times throughout the ten week period. You’ve got humps so we had, I want to say three or four humps that we had to do throughout the time so you build progressively, we did a three mile, six mile, nine mile and then I think we finished up with a 12 mile. Interviewer: “So a hump that’s a backpacking–” Right so you got a pack and I think in OCS it was 45 to 75 pounds or something like that and you go on these excursions where you’re walking through the woods, up hills, and all the rest of that type of stuff. What else did we do? You learn martial arts, the Marine Corps martial arts program, you wind up learning the beginning phases of that, it’s just basic training to see how you do throughout the training but there’s also a lot of tests that are out there. So there’s �Heath, Robert leadership exams so after you’ve done, you know a march or after you’ve gone out and done PT and things of that nature then you’re tested on how you lead a group of people through certain things, you’re given billets or jobs during that time so everything from platoon sergeant on down in a platoon. So you rotate through being fire team leaders, you rotate through being squad leaders and you’re evaluated on your leadership in those roles during that period of time, like I said it’s a great– The way the Marine Corps has it set up is phenomenal for being able to spot and evaluate those people who have the talents to become Marine Corps officers, but the funny part about it is a lot of people don’t realize that’s the first part. So you go through ten weeks of screening and evaluation and once you make it then you commission, or you know if you haven’t graduated college you wait until you graduate college and then you commission, but then the Marine Corps actually trains you how to be an officer and that’s the basic school which is six months of similarly styled training where you get a bunch of lieutenants in a company and we’re in Quantico, Virginia again and you’re going through and you’re learning everything that it is to be a Marine Corps officer. It’s not like a lot– A number of the other different branches have you go straight to your kind of– (24:07) You go through like in the Navy they have what’s called officer development school which is about six weeks, I believe, of learning how to be an officer, understanding what it is to be an officer and then they go straight to naval justice school which is their job specific thing if you’re in the legal profession and so the Marine Corps is different, the idea in the Marine Corps is you’re an officer first. So it doesn’t matter if you’re a pilot, if you’re a lawyer, if you’re a supply guy, if you’re logistician, whatever your job is gonna be in the Marine Corps that’s great, you’re an officer, you’re a platoon commander and so for the first nine months if you go through for the first nine months of your training you’re not doing anything job specific, you’re doing Marine Corps platoon commander specific training and so that’s the ten weeks you’re doing the initial portion and then you go through six months of going to class, learning how to do everything from calling a cav evac to set up a defense to offensive structures to learning how to flank an enemy to all the different things that we do, attack an objective, call in calls for fire and everything that a Marine Corps platoon commander would need to do in the field of battle. �Heath, Robert Interviewer: “So even though you weren’t, you know logically you were probably never gonna see the field going into the legal profession that you did, they still wanted to train you to be able to do it if you needed to.” Exactly, exactly because the ethos of the Marine Corps is every Marine is rifleman, every Marine Corps officer is a platoon commander, in the Army and the Navy and the Air Force they have what’s called the Jag Corps and so that’s really a professional designation, it’s separate and it’s a different type of an officer. In the Marine Corps you have the legal support services section and you have judge advocates who are Marine Corps officers but they’re also lawyers, so for example during my Marine Corps career I was able to be a company commander, but I was a lawyer and that’s because as a lawyer I can do any billet, any job that’s an open source job or a job that’s for any officer in the Marine Corps then we’re able to do that because we have the same training, because we have the same background, because the way the Marine Corps looks at it is, it doesn’t matter what your job is, this is what your real job is. Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s a good way to do things honestly.” (26:28) Yeah I loved it, that was another reason why I joined the Marine Corps– Why I picked the Marine Corps as the branch to serve in because what I didn’t want was to just be a lawyer in a uniform. The reason I wanted to serve in the military I also wanted the knowledge and understanding of how to defend my– How to defend my neighborhood, how to defend my family, how to defend and be part of, right if anything was to ever happen and someone was invading over here I didn’t want to be like “I was in the military but I don’t know how to–” That wouldn’t– Interviewer: “I’m a lawyer!” Exactly, right like that wasn’t my goal and so joining the Marine Corps and going through that training like I know how to dig a fighting hole, I’m an expert on the rifle and on the pistol like I can shoot and I can do those things, I understand all the mechanisms of war to the level that, you know a Marine Corps officer needs to understand them. Now as I’m not anywhere near as skilled �Heath, Robert as my infantry officer brethren who go through another nine weeks of super grueling training to learn how to truly lead an infantry platoon in some of the worst things that you can think of right, but the one the thing that I love about Marine Corps training is you don’t get to say “I’m just a lawyer.” Right they’re like “So? Get your pack on and let’s go.” Interviewer: “So those six months did you also have to struggle physically or were you sort of catching up at that point?” It was less of a struggle physically, I won’t say that it wasn’t a struggle physically but it was one of those things where– And it was interesting because this was actually– Mine was split because basically the way the contract works is I was going into law school when I commissioned, so I would go on active duty during the summers but I was in law school during the years. So I was three years later, and one knee surgery later, when I went to the basic school and so there were thing that I had to deal with because I was getting older so like I had achilles tendonitis while I was there, like I had rolled an ankle so I had some injuries to deal with but what was interesting was everybody wound up getting injured sometime over that six month period. (28:37) Everybody had to deal with injuries, everybody had to deal with being tired, pulling muscles, all the rest that type of stuff. So physically I knew I could do the work and it wasn’t something where I was ever worried about not passing anymore, I knew that I could do it. What was interesting about it was TBS, whereas OCS is really a sprint you just go go go go go go go go go, the basic school is more a marathon and so you’re really trying to figure out how to make it through this entire period. So you can’t just go as hard as you can go, you have to take care of your body, you have to learn when to give, when to relax, when to kind of let other people lead, when you’ve gotta step up and when you’ve got to lead and so the basic school was a– It was a physical test but it was a different test because, you know I had a wife and I had two kids at the time so you’re living a little bit of a different life than the single bachelor Marines who were there just– Right cause you’re living in the barrack but then you also have your family and they want to see you but then we go, you know we’re in the field for a week at a time, so no communication, no talking, no texting, no any of the rest of that and so you gotta deal with it. Then when you come back there are people that are wanting to talk to you, and they’re missing you and all the rest of that type stuff so you get the experience. It was a very interesting �Heath, Robert experience because again being older you’re at a different life experience than a lot of the people that you’re going through with even though you’re having the same kind of curricular experiences that they’re having. Interviewer: “Yeah, so jumping back a little bit you said you were active duty during the summers while you were in school?” Mhmm. Interviewer: “What were you doing during those summers?” I would go and I was basically high profile internships– Or low profile internships, I would work in– For two years I worked in the legal support services section at Quantico and so I was at the University of Illinois for law school but we would go out to Quantico, Virginia and we would work. The first year I worked in the staff judge advocate's office and so staff judge advocate is the– Basically the lawyer for the base. (30:50) He does– He or she does consultations with the base commander and writes a lot of– Does the rewrites for any of the base orders that are going out and all those different types of things make sure everything’s good but then they also run the litigation shop so criminal defense and– At least at that time there was a reorganization in 2010 so this is 2009, 2010, after my summer in 2010 there was a reorganization and they changed a little bit how things work but at that time the base SJA owned, litigation owned, civil law. So understanding, you know administrative stuff, ethics stuff, all the rest of that, long story short I did my internship there, I spent a little time doing civil law work so I did a lot of researching and writing briefs, right. One of the things that I did a brief on, which was really interesting at the time, was the Posse Comitatus law and for those that don’t know Posse Comitatus is the law that talks about what the U.S military can do on U.S soil, because the idea is that the military is created to defend America against foreign enemies right and that policing powers are not relegated to the military, policing powers are designated to the FBI, the Coast Guard, the local municipalities for policing and so one of the things that’s interesting is you have military bases on federal land but in the middle of the United States and the continental U.S. So what are the rights and what are the– Where does the line end between what a base commander can do to �Heath, Robert defend his base and the people that live on the base and things like that and where does the jurisdiction begin for whatever the municipality is because at the time we had a shooter– Or a potential shooter there was a guy that had been spotted kind of scoping in around the housing area who had a rifle but he was outside the gate so technically he was not on the base and so there was a question of what can we do, can the MPs go and detain him and then wait for local law enforcement officers to come in, what was that and so I wound up doing the research on that and sending that up through the chain to the base commander. Interviewer: “Out of curiosity are you able to talk about what could you guys do in that situation?” Yeah, well I can talk about– Now I’ll caveat that with, this was almost ten years ago so laws have changed, things are different. At the time what we came down to was the self-defense powers allowed for the base commander and basically the extension of the base commander, the provost marshal's office, the military police to go and to act in defense. (33:40) So if they think that there’s a threat or something like that, they have a reasonable threat they can go ahead and detain. They can’t arrest the person but they can work with local law enforcement to then call local law enforcement in and then they would take jurisdiction of that person and do whatever needs to happen with that but if there’s an imminent threat then you don’t have to like call the police and wait for them to get there before you do anything, that’s the idea. Interviewer: “That’s good.” Yeah, it made me feel a lot safer cause we were actually, we weren’t living on base during the time but we were– My wife was always on base going to the commissary and working out at the gym, doing stuff like that with the kids and so it was something that it was definitely affecting me plus when I lived on base when we were stationed in Camp Lejeune we lived on base the entire time and so that was really important to know. Interviewer: “Yeah, so when you were going to law school were you receiving BAH, were you receiving a paycheck?” �Heath, Robert Okay so no, the way that the system was set up was I was basically inactive ready reserve during the year and so it was just like any reservist that once you get out and you execute EAS orders you’re technically still in the Marine Corps for– And still in the Navy, the Army for whatever the length of your contract is. So if we go to war you can get called back, all the rest of that, but you’re not receiving any benefits, any services, anything like that. So while I was in law school I basically, I paid for law school the Marine Corps didn’t pay for it, and I did, you know I was a law student basically by day. I still worked out with and helped out with the local OSO’s office, the officer selection officer and you know I would run morning workouts for the pool lees, people who wanted to become Marines and I would help them with different local events but for the most part I was a law student during the year and then during the summer I would execute orders, we would move out to Quantico, I would go and do the work that I was gonna be doing, basically it was pre-training, on the job training so that when you get to the fleet you actually hit the ground running and during that period of time I was getting paid. Interviewer: “Okay, so that must have been kind of a strain on your family?” (35:52) Yeah it was definitely– It was one of those things that we had prepared for but it was– I can– Looking back I can see a number of different ways that I could have done it differently which would have been better financially for my family. Interviewer: “Yeah, especially the moving back and forth had to be kind of rough.” Oh yeah, it was– Well, it was rough but at the same time it was an adventure so it was cool, my kids got to– Because my son was born he actually never made those trips but my daughter she got to live in Virginia, she got to– It was basically a vacation right, it was a two month vacation. It was a real strain for my wife because we would move and we were up and then we would go for two months and then we moved back and so she would lose touch with friends and all the rest of those things and plus basically we would move so that I could go to work all day and she could be at home with my daughter. So she had to basically figure out what she was gonna do for �Heath, Robert the day, which is a lot easier around where you’re living than it is when you move to this new place where you don’t know anybody. Interviewer: “Yeah, so you did that for three years and then what was your first full time station?” Right so when– After we did that for law school I got orders to the basic school so that was the six months and that’s Quantico and that’s when we moved to Quantico, Virginia for six months and went through the whole basic school process. After that we went to Norfolk, Virginia– Not Norfolk, Virginia we went to Newport, Rhode Island for naval justice school and then after that we were stationed permanently in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina right outside of Wilmington. Interviewer: “Okay so what was– How long was naval justice school and what was that like?” (37:40) Okay, so naval justice school was about nine weeks and it was actually, it was a great time just because like when you go through six months of Marine Corps training like naval justice school was like professional school. There was a couple of things we did, a morning run, everything Thursday morning it’s called pain before breakfast which was fun. It’s a five mile run, you go out and you run along the coast line and then we double back and come back to base. The big thing about that run if it was– Like when it was warm it was great but of course when I went to naval justice school we started in October, finished in December. So toward the end of the nine weeks it was crazy, you’d have to bundle up and have your gloves and your hat and your gator and everything. Interviewer: “Especially in Rhode Island.” Yeah, in Rhode Island it was– And you’re right off the water so like wind and there were time where you literally were just like kind of trying to see the person in front of you to figure out where you were running, but that was pretty much the extent of physical grulieness of naval justice school. A lot of it is really teaching you how to go through all the facets of being a lawyer �Heath, Robert in the naval services. So we had Coast Guard lawyers there, we had Navy lawyers, and then we had– Excuse me, we had a contingent of Marine lawyers there as well and that was where you really got to see the difference between kind of what it’s like to be a lawyer in the Marine Corps and what it’s like to be a lawyer in other services, like I said for the Navy the people that we were in class with had been in, I want to say, maybe ten weeks and then they were in naval justice school and then they were getting ready to go and get assigned to wherever they were assigned. The people that were in the Coast Guard with us had been in maybe six months and many of them less than that, and then they were doing the same thing and the average time in service for the people that were in the Marine cohort was like 18 months. Interviewer: “Wow, that’s a big difference.” Right, and all of us had been on active duty at least six months, some were kind of like mustangs, me-steps, people who had been enlisted, gone to college, and then joined the officer corps. We also had a major who was an aviator who was changing over to his designation to become a lawyer now and so he was– He has been in the Marine Corps for already ten years before he made that change and so the Marine cohort was definitely– Had done a lot– Not done a lot more, had been in a lot longer and so it was an interesting dynamic. (40:20) Interviewer: “So this was 2012 right?” This was 2013, that’s the end of 2013 so I spent– This is the other thing about the basic school, because of the way that everything works you’ve got to get a spot in a class and those spots fill up and so because as a lawyer in order to get– To earn your spot in the class you have to pass the bar, otherwise you don’t get your law designation you then just go in as kind of general population. So graduate in May of 2012, take the bar in October of 20– No take the bar in August of 2012 and then you get your results in October. So you’re not eligible for a slot until October so there’s four months after I graduated, five months after I graduated where you’re kind of in limbo, luckily I wound up getting selected as the dean’s fellow at the college. So basically I graduated and worked directly for the dean for the college of law and basically worked on a lot of special projects, we worked to develop a mentorship program between senior alumni, people �Heath, Robert who had graduated six or more years ago and had been practicing law for that time, and then recent graduated those who had three or less years out of school. So we developed that program while I was there, I did a number of research projects, I did some work on how to make college recruiting– College of law recruiting process more attractive for diverse applicants and then I did some work as well doing– Helping 1L students, beginning law students to figure out what it is they want to do and helping with their path so that was some work I did with the career development office as well. Interviewer: “Yeah, did you see a lot of diversity in the officer programs or was that really something that you wanted to jumpstart?” Right, well so this was for law school but one of the things that you see generally in these– In programs that are of higher quality or that have high screening processes right. The legal profession in order to get into law school it’s a very high bar, you gotta have good grades, you gotta have a good LSAT score, legal scholastic aptitude test score. (42:38) Same thing with the Marine Corps there’s high standards and so getting there is difficult and one of the things that is interesting when you look at the dynamics of our society right, because of the fact that you don’t have a lot of people who make it through right, I’m an African American male, there’s not a lot of African American males that graduate college, there’s a chunk but proportionately not a tremendous amount right. So once you can make– Once you can reach that level, once I can graduate college as an African American male what I represent to organizations who are looking for the perspective of African American males is considerably as an– You know vis-a-vis individual to individual than my counterparts, caucasian males, women, etc and the main reason why is because I’m so much less likely to be there. So if you want the African American male perspective there’s a smaller pool of people that you can go to that are qualified to be where you’re– Doing what you’re doing and they can do it and so what that does is it means that you actually have to, and I’ll use the term pay more but it’s not really pay more, but there has to be more value, there has to be more welcomingness, there has to be more where I can see myself being welcomed into that society, like as an African American male graduating high school or with my– When I had my credentials having a master’s degree and going to college I wasn’t going go some place where I feel like I needed to struggle to fit in. I wasn’t going to go some �Heath, Robert place where I felt like I was going to have to do work, more work than I had already done, to get to the place where I was because that was work that you have to do in every step along the way because it’s like college isn’t set up where it’s basically it’s a play– College isn’t set up in way that says, you know “We understand your experience and come on it’s gonna be just like everybody else’s experience here.” You go to a lot of these places and I mean I’ve had this experience all growing up and it’s not a bad thing, it’s not a complaint thing, it’s just a reality thing right. If you’re– And you’ve been stationed overseas you know how it is, when you’re an American in Japan there’s a different feeling, you don’t feel less than, but you know that it’s different. Interviewer: “Yeah you stick out.” Right, you stick out and people speak a language that you don’t speak and they understand things and can tell jokes and laugh and there’s a different sense of ease they have with belonging, and that’s the thing it’s not that– They treat you nice, they say hello like it’s not that they treat you bad, but you understand that you don’t– That it’s not necessarily your group, and so that was one of the things that I understood. (45:20) Growing up I was, if not a couple, generally I was the one black kid in my class, in every AP class in high school, in college, in graduate school going through and so you start to understand that experience and so that’s something where you get to a point where you’re like “I want to have an experience where I don’t have to feel like the odd person out, I don’t have to feel like this.” And the schools that are– That create that type of an environment, that can be more diverse and the programs that create those types of environments are more appealing to that small group of people who are now qualified to go there, and so you see a lot of schools really clamoring for the small groups of people who are there because it’s a perspective that’s needed, and that goes with any minority. When you look at Native Americans, again another minority that is disproportionately represented on the low end in higher education, women used to be and has now in just the last, you know 20 years really gotten back, gotten to the point where women are represented and ever over represented in higher education but for so long women were underrepresented in professions and professional education. So anyway that whole study I was doing was really on how do we show people and how do we make ourselves more welcoming, more appealing to those groups we want to attract, because the idea is that– All �Heath, Robert the studies have shown that the more diverse opinions you have in an educational setting the better the educational experience, and that’s not diversity just on the basis of color that’s diversity of experiences, that’s diversity of life challenges, that’s the diversity of how people have built up their resiliency to be where they are, and being able to do that and understand that you have to learn to attract those people who have diverse experiences but there’s an interesting thing, when you’re looking for diverse experiences you’re looking for things that are outside of the norm but if you’re presenting everything that is the norm you’re not attracting people that are outside of the norm and so there’s this kind of dichotomy that goes on there and that’s what I worked on during that kind of inter period while I was dean’s fellow. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay.” And so we used to have a lot of talks about this in the Marine Corps as well when I was in the basic school 275 officers, eight black officers, right and you would see– And it was interesting we knew, we were aware, you’d see just different things like we’d get together and there’d be the eight black– Maybe it’d be six of us, or five of us, but there would be a group of black officers talking and then you know you’d get looks like “What they talking about? What’s going on?” (48:10) Right and so every once and a while we’d do stuff just for fun, we’d grab somebody like “Hey you come here, we need to integrate this circle so people stop looking at us.” So we grab some of our friends because it was never that we got together and were like “We’re gonna exclude people.” But we would just get together, start talking and one of the things we got to see was we had to make it more comfortable for our white friends to be part of the group as well. So that’s what we would– We would intentionally pull people over and be like “Hey! Come here, let’s talk, let’s be over here to integrate it.” Because it looks weird and– Not weird, you would feel the eyes go to the one group, now there’d be a group of all white people standing over here and a group of all white people standing over here, nobody’s paying attention but when the group of all black people got together it was like “Hmm, I wonder what they’re talking about?” Interviewer: “Did you see that with any other ethnicities, were there like groups of Filipinos?” �Heath, Robert There were groups of– There were other ethnicities but there were a lot less so normally– Like there were some Latinos that were in our group and there were some descendants, Middle Eastern descendants that were in our group, there were some Asian descendants that were in our group as well but they were onesies and twosies kind of and normally what was interesting was that minority group would be all of the above, but we would– You would just notice the difference in how those groups– Any time if it was a group of minorities that were together you would just– You could see the difference and sometimes it was just pure curiosity, but nonetheless it was interesting to see that because you’d see a group of 15 white people talking and the curiosity wasn’t the same, the interest, none of that was the same and it wasn’t– Again, it wasn’t nefarious, it wasn’t anything malicious, it wasn’t anything bad, it was just different and you could notice it and those were the types of things, those are subtle cues that you notice about not being part of the norm, not being part of the regular and I mean I think the numbers right now African American officers make up, I want to say, about 2% of the Marine Corps officer corps and the numbers are a lot higher in the enlisted ranks but a lot of the reason for African Americans not making up a large portion of the Marine Corps is– (50:24) I mean the Marine Corps officer corps has nothing to do with kind of traditional discrimination or anything like that but if you look at the system for recruitment of officers in the Marine Corps what you see is that there are no, like one of my– Case and point one of the guys that was in my platoon was a former Marine, he had been in the Marine Corps ten years he was a staff sergeant, he went to Howard historically black college and university, in order to be part of his officer selection office pool he had to go and travel over to Georgetown because that’s where the office was and that’s where the majority of everybody worked and so there was no officer selection effort at Howard University. Which if you think about it right if you’re recruiting African American males you’re going to have higher propensity to get African American males who are qualified to become Marine Corps officers at Howard university which is a historically black college and university than at Georgetown university, right but at the end of the day that was one of the things that he had to deal with and if you look in Atlanta there isn’t an officer selection office that caters specifically to Morehouse and you know Atlanta, all of the different historically black colleges and universities in that area. In the recruiting mindset they’ll recruit an area and generally right if you look at the system people recruit where they’re comfortable. If the majority of officer selection officers are white then they’re gonna recruit in areas where they’re comfortable with the people, �Heath, Robert which are majorly white and once and a while you’ll get a black person that’ll trickle through whereas– So there’s a whole bunch of kind of that process in the system and don’t get me wrong like the Marine Corps is doing a good job at moving it forward. One of my friends, a former middle linebacker at Marshall University, infantry officer, African American male infantry officer, was an officer selection officer for three years and he was in the Kent State Ohio region and so you know he was doing more to do that and just having more diverse faces and all those different types of things but it’s– Ultimately I think the diversity is a lot more difficult than people give it credit for and because what it requires is for people to do and to step outside of their comfort zone on the regular which is not a normal behavior. Interviewer: “Yeah, so did you ever have a lot of struggles with that or did you sort of, because of your background, fit in so to speak?” Yeah, fitting in was easy and that’s one of the things that I love about the Marine Corps, race, color, all that rest of type stuff doesn’t really matter, it’s not– Even with those subtleties and those things that we talked about everybody was awesome, amazing. (53:15) You got people from the north, you got people from the south, you got people from the west and the east and it didn’t matter we were all Marines right. We all bleed green and so that was the basic idea and so there’s a camaraderie and there’s an esprit de corps that is developed through that training, through that time that you spend in the field with each other and learning about each other, and so I want to be clear in that description. One of the reasons the Marine Corps is so amazing is because of the fact that in the culture it’s not allowed for you to be thought of based off of where you come from. Right, like where you come from is a component of who you are as a Marine but you’re a Marine, that’s the most important component of who you are and that’s the thing that you remember that we follow. When you pay attention to honor, courage, and commitment that we are this group, semper fidelis right always faithful to one another and that’s more important than any of the other stuff and that was one of the things that is so– Was so liberating about being a Marine Corps officer that you never had to really overcome racism and those things like you would literally be laughed at if you harbored those kind of– People like “What are you talking about?” Like it’s Marines, like are you a Marine or are you not a Marine, like you want to be a racist go ahead and be a racist but like are you gonna be a Marine, you gonna not be a �Heath, Robert Marine– That was the thing that for me was– And that was the experience I had with my– You know even 20 years before with my dad in the Army it was the same thing. A lot of his best friends were white and we used to hang out and he played semi-pro football when we were in Germany it was a lot of fun and you didn’t get a sense of you’re different, you got a sense of soldier, soldier that was the way that it worked and so– But coming from society that’s one of the things that you always notice the subtleties but I love the fact that in the Marine Corps what I got to see often was what society looks like when people don’t pay attention to that. Interviewer: “That’s awesome, that’s a really good thing to hear. I'm glad that that’s true for all the branches and you know that definitely holds true with the Navy too. So you do your naval justice school and then you got sent back to Quantico you said?” Yeah– Well no,after naval justice school I went down to Camp Lejeune so then I linked up and I was attached to the defense services office east, which is the eastern region. (55:48) So legal support section east which is basically the legal support services are broken up into four regions in the Marine Corps You’ve got the national capital region which deals with headquarters of the Marine Corps, Quantico, and everything and kind of the DMV if you would and then you’ve got legal support service section east which is headquartered at Camp Lejeune but deals with Parris Island and Marine Corps Logistics Base Albany and everything– All the little kind of detachments and everything we’ve got in the southern and the southeastern region and then you’ve got Marine Corps L triple S west which deals with everything kind of west of the Mississippi and then you’ve got the Pacific region L triple S that deals with everything that is Japan, Iwakuni, Camp Butler and all of the detachments that are out in the Pacific region. Interviewer: “So did you choose this station or were you given this station?” Yes, so I was voluntold so I went and actually my first choice was to be stationed in Japan, so kind of I went Japan, Pendleton, Hawaii, and then Lejeune was my number four but I got Lejeune and I think one of the main reasons my daughter has asthma and one of the things that they look at when they’re deciding where they’re gonna station you is with your dependents they have to station you somewhere your dependents can get care and in Iwakuni there is an asthma �Heath, Robert care facility that’s feasible and so I couldn’t get stationed there so they sent me to Camp Lejeune and when I was there– And I loved it, it was a great experience and it’s interesting because although I had wanted other experience this is one of the experiences that for me really solidified what the Marine Corps means and being able to see the camaraderie because one of the things about Camp Lejeune specifically is the surrounding community has so many veterans and so many people who still love the Marine Corps, have retired, or have served and just stayed around and plus also Camp Johnson, which when I was a company commander a couple of my units were on Camp Johnson, was the site of the Montford Point Marines which were the first African American Marines to train in the Marine Corps so it was– From a historical perspective it was a really cool moment. Interviewer: “I’ll bet, did you have– How long were you there?” So I was there from December of 2013 to October of 2017 so almost a full four years. Interviewer: “Okay, and what were you doing at that time?” (58:39) Okay so the first thing– First billet that I had I was a defense counsel, so in the Marine Corps if you’re– If you’re alleged to have committed a crime if you’re indicted of anything you get access to a Marine Corps lawyer, one of the things that we pride ourselves on is the fact that Marines are defended by Marines and because the whole– We believe the idea that you’re innocent until proven guilty and the allegations are just that, they’re what people think may have happened they’re not what exactly happened and so the defense services office and actually that defense services office, defense services office east is the busiest defense shop in the Marine Corps, we run through more cases than any other defense shop in the Marine Corps and that was– At least for the three years– For the three, four years I was there that was the busiest shop during the time and I spent two years in that post and we defended Marines and sailors from allegations of wrongdoing. There are a number– And I always look at it as we didn’t just defend people and say “Okay, well you’re definitely innocent, that’s definitely the case.” We also helped to broker the deals that were in the best interest of both parties, of the service member and of the Marine Corps because there were some– There were a number of my clients, I had over, you know 200 �Heath, Robert clients that I– That I advised while I was a defense counsel, I had over 70 that were my individual clients ranging from everything from administrative separation or being fired from the Marine Corps if you would, all the way up to general court martial felony level offenses and so throughout the time that I was there there was a number of my clients that were guilty of what they had been accused of, and in those cases what I did is I helped them to navigate the process to get them the best situation for them so that they were able to admit their guilt, to deal with the consequences thereof but then also move on with their lives and be reentered back into society as productive, contributing citizens. I took that role very seriously as well because like you said I’m a Marine Corps officer first right and as a Marine Corps officer my job is to support and defend the constitution of the United States. The goal is to make sure that our systems are working so that our citizens can be as productive as possible right so as defense council one of the things that I was able to do, and you get a special kind of place and role because you’re the person people can talk to and tell you all their dirt, everything that they did. So I got to know where my clients were and what they were struggling with so I would be able to give them recommendations for help, I would be able to give them recommendations for how to move on with their lives after the fact. (1:01:17) A lot of my clients, you know especially the ones that were dealing with getting fired not so much on the criminal side, they were getting fired because of behavioral issues right, some of them were getting fired because– Like I had one client who was in a drug rehab program, he had been doing drugs and– But he had been doing drugs because of the fact that he was dealing with PTSD and he having trouble sleeping and all the rest of it. So it was he was self diagnosing and self medicating which wasn’t the system that he should’ve followed but everything about his performance as a Marine, everything about what he did was honorable, he had served, served in combat and so it was trying to figure out how to deal with these people who like– The thing that I always prided myself on and the thing that I always remembered was every one of my clients had stood on the yellow footprints, raised their right hand, and said “I swear to defend and protect the constitution of the United States.” And were even willing to give their lives to do so. So it wasn’t– We weren’t dealing with people who were morally, you know decrepit, corrupt, we were dealing with people who were good people who made bad choices, who were good people who were dealing with bad– Dealing with some demons, and so that was something that I liked about the job is that we got to work. I was an attorney and counselor at law and I got to help people to make the transition that they needed to make, maybe you don’t �Heath, Robert need to be a Marine that’s true but you’re not a horrible person, let’s get you back into society so that you’re not, you know continuing to do the same things that you’re doing but then I also prided myself on the fact that I got to protect a number of people who were innocent and who had been accused of horrible things who– They hadn’t done it so one of the things that I love about that time, I held– It was 70% and it dropped in the end of my career but when I left defense I was at 70% acquittal so I took 11– I took ten cases to trial at the time and seven of them wound up with acquittals. That turned into I got pulled onto another case later on in my career and so that wound up being a guilty verdict but even with the four that were guilty they were necessarily guilty like that case I– The last case that I took he had already admitted to one of the crimes on the charge sheet it was the other five that they had put on there that we were like “Nah, he didn’t do that.” And they were trying to end his career and send him to jail for nine years and all the rest this type of stuff and it was like that’s– No, he did this, he said he did this, we’re gonna go ahead and defend all this other stuff cause that’s crazy and at the end of the day he got convicted for what we said he did, he wound up being reduced in rank from an E6 to an E5, and he got a reprimand. Interviewer: “Wow, that’s a very drastic difference there.” (1:04:08) Right, because we were at felony level criminal court, like I said they were trying to put him away for nine years. Interviewer: “Wow, so you said you also defended sailors? Was that–” Yeah, I defended sailors, I had a couple of sailors that I defended. One was a felony case actually and this was a– This was a case that was really tough for me because it was a sexual assault case, and one of the interesting things about the case was there were problems with the case from the beginning, the NCIS went back an reinterviewed the alleged– The complaining witness to see, you know because there was text messages and there were communications back and forth between them that didn’t jive with the story that she had told and there were already problems that were, you know she had told this story a year after the alleged incident and then we went to trial a year after that, and there were a number of different issues that went to do with that and I �Heath, Robert won’t go into all of the issues but one of the things that was really difficult for me in this trial was like, and with sexual assault trials in general, I’m a martial artist instructor as well I teach women– Empowered women self defense classes, I work with a lot of survivors of sexual assault, I consider myself an advocate and an ally for women who have had to deal with sexual assault. One of the interesting things about being on the defense side is you get to see the problems that go into this area and you know I’ve talked a lot in my legal circles about the fact that I don’t think that– In most cases when were dealing with sexual assault I don’t think the criminal court is the appropriate forum to deal with the issue and one of the main reasons why is because the nature of the facts and the nature of the cases, it’s a very hard case– Even if you have a legitimate sexual assault, it’s a very hard case to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law because there’s so much that had to do with sexual assault that is– You’re listening to two people who are in a situation tell different stories about what happened in the situation, and as a third party who wasn’t there you have to make judgements about what happened and what didn’t happened and credibility determinations are very difficult, it just it puts us in a place that makes it very difficult for the third party to move forward and so what you wind up is having this skewed perception where women have actually been violated, women have actually had– (1:06:34) Women and men have actually had things happen to them that they didn’t want to happen to them but because of the fact that the bar is so high for them to be able to convince a third party, they generally wind up– I mean the success rate in sexual assualt cases– The convinction rates are something like 6 or 7% right and it’s because it’s such a difficult inquiry, not because– And I’ve been on both sides of it, like I said I was a defense counselor, I was also a company commander and sat in conversations where we had to decide whether or not to prosecute sexual assault allegations and how those case were gonna go, I’ve been on both sides of that table, I’ve dealt with– As an ally with assault survivors and so I’ve always been more of the opinion that in cases like that the court system of criminal court is not a great place to try those cases because the system isn’t set up for it. The system is set up– And intentionally so right? We as a society say “We’re gonna take away your freedom, we’re gonna take away your– Possibly, potentially we might take away your life, we’ll definitely take away your liberty and your right to pursue happiness.” Right, that– We put a high bar on that because those are enshrined in our constitution and the level of credibility and the level of evidence we need to say “Yes, we’re gonna do that.” is relatively high. We have another court system which is a tort court �Heath, Robert system which basically is a person to person, you have wronged me and I want redress of that wrong I’ve been damaged, that has a lower bar in most states it’s a preponderance of the evidence it’s 51% to 50%-- I mean 49%, if we think you did it then you can be convicted or not convicted, you can– The plaintiff can win and be awarded damages and that way they can have that kind of vindication from society saying “Yes, you’ve done this and I can now get monetary recompense from you in that vein.” But I think that one of the other things we need to do in our system is focus a lot more on support and aiding survivors in overcoming the incident. When I say all that it’s kind of prologue to– I look at this issue from a lot of different angles, and when– As a defense counsel however I was in a situation where my client had been accused, and in my opinion had been falsely accused, of sexually assaulting someone and the crazy thing about that case was, like I said everything in the system. The prosecution team was coming to me with deals trying to get us to just agree that he was in the barracks when he shouldn’t have been in the barracks so it could be something easy to get away because they weren’t wanting to prosecute this case because they were like “We don’t even believe that it happened but we have to prosecute it.” Because the way that the laws had changed and the way that things went, it had to go forward, and so it was really difficult cause basically my client was facing sexual assault charges, being a registered sex offender for the rest of his life right. (1:09:38) All of those different types of things and he was maintaining his innocence, I believed he was innocent, but we had gotten it to the point where he could’ve gotten a slap on the wrist for something that didn’t have anything to do with sexual assault and it wouldn’t even really be on his record, but he was like “No, I want to go to court, she’s lying on me, she’s besmirched me, I want vindication.” And so now I’m in a place where I’m taking a case to trial that could go the wrong way and like, so it was– I mean the level of stress was crazy because you never know what somebody– What might happen, what people might say and I’ve seen cases that should’ve been won get lost over and over and over again right. So ultimately we wound up and he wound up being acquitted of all charges but that was possibly one of the most stressful things that I had to do as a defense counsel because you have somebody who’s legitimately innocent who’s facing tremendous consequences and– Cause the conviction alone, like triggers all of these things. Even if he serves no jail time he’s a registered sex offender, there’s certain places he can’t live, certain things he can’t do, all the rest of the, but we wound up– He wound up being acquitted so that was a really good experience. I had a number of other cases kind of that were of that level. I had one �Heath, Robert Marine who had been accused of being part of a conspiracy to sell weaponry, he was stationed in Afghanistan, long story really short there was one guy who was doing a lot of bad stuff and he has some issues as well. His wife was leaving him and she was cheating and she was taking the kids and all this type stuff while he’s deployed so– She’s spending up all his money so now he’s got creditors, there’s– None of the situations are ever like “Ah you’re a bad guy, you’re just evil.” There’s always stuff that’s behind it but nonetheless he was doing some things he shouldn’t have been doing, and when he gets caught he’s facing, you know 130 years in federal prison, and he just starts naming, naming, naming everybody he could think of and the interesting thing about my client’s case was like my client went in, talked to the officers, he had never done– He had never done anything wrong so he was like “I’ll talk, I’ll say whatever you need me to say, everything’s fine.” They go and they check and the conspirator kept telling different stories about my client and it’s just like– Interviewer: “It’s not tracking.” It’s not tracking not only do you tell different stories about my client– (1:12:08) There were some people he told the truth about and they got convicted and they went through that but my client was that one that it was just like they threw him in and there were a couple other people that he named and they wound up getting kind of exonerated and they never even had charges brought against them but my client wound up having charges brought against him because there was a money transfer, but the interesting thing about the money transfer right the things that he was selling he was selling for about $200-$300 a piece. These were consistent transfers from everybody that was involved in it, my client gave him $600 right and so I was like “Hmm?” So either he was really good and duped my client into buying this thing for way more than he was selling to everybody else or the story that my client had tracks out. Now what everybody else didn’t know but what we knew was not only did my client– So the guy who came to my client right before he went on R&R so when he was getting leave to go back home to the states and he had talked about his sob story, his wife was doing the things that she was doing, he needed money and one of the reasons why he was doing all this dirty stuff is because he needed money. So he came to my client “Hey can I borrow anything, can you give me any money to take back?” What everybody else including this guy doesn’t know is that my client didn’t manage his money, �Heath, Robert his wife did. So he calls home and says “Hey babe, can we give him any money, what can we do?” She sets the standard and her number– I mean her name, is on the account that the money’s coming from. So this transfer didn’t come directly from my client to him and so in the case, long story like I said less long, what you got to see was the guy who was making up the stories didn’t know any of this background so he made up all types of “Oh we were in my room and we did this transfer and he did it right on my computer.” Etc, and it was like “Really, that’s interesting cause do you know the transfer didn’t actually happen in Afghanistan, the transfer happened from the United States to Afghanistan? Oh and did you also know it wasn’t from my client's account?” And you know the NCIS agent hadn’t done his research and so he didn’t know this either and he was trying to act like this was and open and shut case and I was like “You all have the ability to track where transfers come from like that’s a pretty standard ability for NCIS isn’t it?” And he was like “Of course, yeah.” I was like “So at any point in time in your investigation did you come upon the fact that this didn’t come from my client’s bank account but it came from his wife’s bank account?” So “Well, I’m not really sure.” “Exactly, and did you check and see that the transfer actually happened from the U.S to Afghanistan, not Afghanistan to Afghanistan right, the transfer online?” “Well I don’t know.” Long story short this kid had spent a year and a half– He was about to get promoted to sergeant, he’s about to reenlist. (1:14:52) All of that was on hold, he was getting corporal pay still and there was a number of different things that happened with his life but he was so dedicated to the Marine Corps, that all he wanted to do was stay in the Marine Corps and this was after, you know they had been threatening him and all the rest of this type stuff and it was so painful for me when I was dealing with this and one of the main reasons like the kid came to me and he was like “Sir” because at the time they were giving out deals for like three months to four months and his wife had just gotten pregnant, they had been trying to get pregnant for three years, she had just gotten pregnant and so he was like “Sir, can I just plead guilty so that I can be out by the time my baby is born?” Like I– And of course as the lawyer I’m like “Did you do it? Like because that’s different than what everything else you told me so talk to me like tell me how you did it if you did it.” He’s like “I didn’t do it but if it means that I can just get out and be there for my child then I’ll be cool.” And I’m like “But I can’t let you plead guilty to something you didn’t do. So if you can tell me you did then we good but if you can’t tell me you did it we can’t do that.” He’s like “Well I didn’t do it sir, I didn’t do anything wrong but like can I just tell them I did something wrong so I can get out?” And like �Heath, Robert that conversation was so difficult and then the second conversation which was like after he was going through all of this bad stuff. He had gotten hurt and they wouldn’t let him get surgery for his shoulder, he– Like there were so many things that he was getting denied because he was this bad guy now right and there were so many of us that were like “Hey, like we get you got out, when you get finished like we’re pretty sure that you’re gonna get acquitted, we’re gonna make that happen.” I had to work hard to do it but I figured we had this case in the bag, but it was like you might want to think about doing something different just going and– Cause you know it might not go well for you if you get acquitted of this and keep going but his love for the Marine Corps was so– He was like “Nah this is all I’ve ever wanted to do sir, I want to be a Marine.” So he stayed, I saw him a year and half after the trial he was still in the Marine Corps, still doing the thing and he loved the Marine Corps and it just– It was amazing but that was another case that really emotionally for me right– Because it’d be different if I thought that he had did something wrong, it’d be a completely different story but like I get to grill them, I get to ask the questions that nobody else gets to ask, I get to say “That doesn’t make sense, tell me again.” And over and over and over again so most of my clients, right I had a very good understanding of whether they did it, whether they didn’t. (1:17:20) This kid I know didn’t do it and to see the trauma like he wound up getting sick and gaining weight and all types of other stuff and then he wound up getting back in shape after, but you just saw like I got him acquitted but I couldn’t give him a year and a half of his life back. So that was really trying, but anyways that was my defense career. Interviewer: “So you said you advised 200 cases, you took 70, and only 10 went to trial?” Yeah, 11 over the course of time, only because like I said a number of them– So of the 70 cases I had probably about 40 of them, 35 to 40 of them were cases where they were going to get fired from the Marine Corps. So technically there were trials but there were hearings, so I did about 25 of those that wound up being hearings that I was also kind of in trial but those were– The stakes were a lot lower on those like at worst case scenario you lose your job, right like you’re not– It wasn’t– And for the person don’t get me wrong it was still bad but it wasn’t the horrific scenario of you’re a criminal when we get finished and so that was probably about a good 35 to 40 of the cases that I had and then 30 of the cases that I had were criminal cases and in those cases, like I �Heath, Robert said, 11 of them went to trial the others we either were able to get them dismissed before we even hit a trial, so there were a number of cases where they thought my client did something and then they found out that they didn’t, right. A lot of them sometimes there would be you pop onto your analysis test and they think that you did something so they charged you with unlawful use of drugs and they find out you had a prescription for the medication and they didn’t know you had a prescription so the charges go away or somebody says that you did something and then it comes out that somebody else did it, those types of things. So those cases will go away so of the 30 or so that I had we had some guilties as well, some people that were guilty and what we did is we had them plead guilty and we worked out the sentencing structure with the cases. I had a couple of cases like that, most of them involving drug use or something like that where the people were guilty and so we went and took them to plead out, to plead to their guilt and to work on what was a good sentence and their rehabilitation. So that was we– Over the course of that two years I did a lot of different work, the trials were the ones that were– That stick out the most mainly because they were the most high stakes. Interviewer: “About how long did these trials take, do they have like an average time?” (1:19:52) Yeah, so normal trial like– I want to say I did six of those or seven those those trials which are special court martials which are basically misdemeanor court, you could serve it most the year, and in those trials it’s normally about three days and then in those federal felony level courts the general court martials those are about five days and so in those trials you’re in court, you know the majority of the bulk of the day nine to five and later and you’re calling witnesses, going through testimony, doing all the rest that type of stuff and then the jury is deliberating and you’re waiting. That experience, I mean it’s interesting because it’s what I had trained for, was what I wanted, I wanted to be a litigator that was– I was on the mock trial team when I was in undergrad at U of I, we were nationally ranked, I was on the mock trial team when I was in law school so this is what I had been doing. The interesting thing about litigation is once you’re doing it for real there’s real people’s stories, real people’s lives and so it’s not– At least for me, there’s some people that can still do it and it’s just a game, it’s just, you know it’s the thrill of the battle right. For me I always got locked into the reality of my clients lives and that was one of the �Heath, Robert things that was difficult for me, it’s one of the reasons I’m not a– I don’t practice law now because the problems that they were dealing with and the things that I was dealing with, like I said, even when I won and I won 70% of the time I wasn’t able to give them back the time that they had lost by being accused and by everybody around you thinking that you’ve done something that is outside of your character and outside of the person that you are and that was something that was really difficult for me as an attorney and it was one of the reasons why I decided to request command right after that because I saw so much in the system that we were quick to say “He did something wrong, let’s send him through the system.” And a lot of that is because people were trying not the lose their jobs, they’re worried about if I let this go, if this doesn’t– Right it makes perfect sense why they would do it that way so I didn’t hold it against them but the place where I could be of most service was not kind of outside of the system railing against the machine but more as a commander and that was– Because I spoke to a lot of commanders and a lot of times I helped them to come to solutions where they didn’t have to– Where, like perfect case I had one case where there was a kid, he was a bad egg right, he was not– He didn’t need to be in the Marine Corps, he already been busted down from lance corporal to PSC or private, he was already getting ready to get kicked out, and he had popped on your analysis for oxycontin which is a narcotic. (1:22:56) Problem is, again the systems that we had didn’t show that he had a prescription for this drug and like literally I had the prescription paperwork, you know like it’s obvious that– And once you have a prescription it’s no longer a crime you’re completely doing what you’re supposed to be doing and so this was an administrative error where we just didn’t know, we his command just didn’t know that he had a prescription, perfectly fine but they were gonna try to send him to trial for this issue and it’s like, okay let’s pause for a second because I– And the kid didn’t even want to be there he wanted to get out, he was like “Just fire me, kick me out of the Marine Corps that’s fine but I didn’t do this so I’m gonna fight this because I didn’t do–” Right, there’s that argument of I’m not gonna get in trouble for something I didn’t do. Interviewer: “Yeah, he’ll take the other than honorable discharge over the dishonorable discharge.” �Heath, Robert Exactly, right and so– And being a criminal right, and so at the end of the day– Because all the stuff that he had gotten in trouble for before was like not coming back from leave on time, like a whole bunch of ne’er-do-well, you don’t need to be in the military type of stuff but not– Interviewer: “But not crimes.” Exactly, and so I helped the command to figure out okay, here’s the deal and I went in– This is towards the end of my career in defense, I’m like “Here’s two things”Number one I’m about to be a company commander so I’m thinking, and I’ve always been thinking about this, from the position of being a command, second thing I’ve won three cases like this already. It’s a really easy case to win, here’s the deal he didn’t do the crime, you’re gonna send this to trial, you’re gonna spend a whole bunch of money, we’re gonna call a whole bunch of witnesses and at the end of the day you’re gonna find out that he didn’t do the crime which I’m telling you right now like there’s no– The elements are not met, you can’t beat it, but here’s the other thing that you need to realize, we have a point of meeting. He wants to get out of the Marine Corps, he wants to go home, he wants to be back with his friends doing 18 to 22 year old stuff. You want him out of the Marine Corps and he’s already done enough stuff for you to ADSEP him, you’ve already done the paperwork. (1:24:47) So we worked it out, so it was like send that paperwork up, get it done, he can be out of the Marine Corps in two months– Or two weeks rather, and you can be getting another Marine to fill his spot, whereas if we go through this process of trying to take it to trial just administratively the trial is gonna be three or four months from now, then he’s gonna get acquitted, then you’re gonna try to ADSEP him later cause you can’t ADSEP him while he’s going to trial. So all that paperwork has to restart three to four months from now, you’re six, eight months later before this kid is out. So which one are we gonna do, and easily enough the trial goes away, the kid get ADSEPed he’s out of the Marine Corps in two weeks and the unit gets another Marine so now the unit’s better, like it was about helping to create a solution where everybody wins and that’s the thing that I think being in defense before I was in command or any other type of unit really helped me to see there are a number of solutions that work because at the end of the day even if we have these criminals right, they have done something that the majority of Americans haven’t done, which is they have stepped up and taken the oath, right. So at some point in time in their lives they had some semblance of this is bigger than me and I want to do �Heath, Robert something better than myself and if we can keep that in mind like what we were able to do like was to make solutions that work better for everybody and that was really my goal, especially towards the end of my defense career once I had seen the system in action and then once I became a company commander it was the same thing. My goal was to figure out– We had to kick two Marines out while I was company commander but those Marines left thanking me and prepared for the next chapter of their lives instead of disgruntled and thinking that the Marine Corps sucks and hating everything. Interviewer: “Yeah, so before we move too much forward into your time as a company commander, what were the trials like? Just like the bare bones of the trial, who was the judge, who was the jury?” Right, so all of those– Generally you have a jury of members that can be Navy or Marine Corps, members they’re whatever unit is conducting the trial. So for example if it’s 2nd Maintenance Battalion or if it’s headquarters regiment which is a logistic element right, they would source the members for that trial. So you’re judged not by just your peers Marine Corps wide but by your peers in your unit and then we would do jury selection and we would generally wind up with a panel of anywhere between three and ten members, sometimes there were panels even bigger 12 or 15 members but those are– (1:27:39) It’s normally not that many people and then you’d have a judge who was part of another section that’s not technically part of legal support services section it’s another administrative distinction. So you’d have a judge that would preside over the case and that was a Marine Corps officer generally or a naval officer but all of my cases were presided over by Marine Corps judges, and then you would have a prosecution team which was from the trial shop and that was just like I got assigned to defense there were people that got assigned to trial and sometimes you would go back and forth and so like a friend of mine who was a defensive counsel for his first two years at Camp Lejeune, left from defense and went to trial and became a trial counsel the next two years. So those are– It’s not as if you have a defense brain in your only defense, I had another colleague who had been a trial counsel at Parris Island and came and got transferred to Camp Lejeune and she was a defense counsel at Camp Lejeune. So if you’ve ever seen the T.V show Jag it’s not as fluid as they make it where you can be on trial one day and you can be on defense the next day but it is– It’s not one of those things where �Heath, Robert you’re a defense counsel and you’re always a defense counselor, you’re on trial you’re a trial counselor. So that’s the way the court was set up, generally there will be two attorneys on each case so I was lead attorney on a number of the cases that I did but I was also second chair and generally you’ll break the case up and you’ll do certain things depending on what your specialties are. So I was really good at cross examination I would cross examine a lot of witnesses, I would do closings because I was also good at that and ultimately you prosecute the trial, you bring people on, you have them tell their stories and oftentimes what would happen in my cases was the story that gets told in paperwork is a lot less robust and realistic than the story that actually exists and so when you get people on the stand and you actually tell– Get them telling what they know, and then you get them talking about what they just conjecture or what they just speculate about or what they just think might possibly be the case, then you start to see that the story that’s on paper sounded a lot more confident than the real story and so that was what happened in the majority of my cases, I mean even the cases that when my clients got convicted like I said I had one client that got convicted of drunk and disorderly conduct which is what we said at the beginning he was guilt of and we had been willing to do an NJP but the command thought that he was guilty of assault and hazing and all these other things, which we were like “We’ve done the investigation, we’ve talked to people like nobody says that he did this! Your witnesses–” (1:30:31) And so that was a fun case because literally the prosecution’s witnesses came on and they said– The prosecution asked them questions and then we asked them questions we were like “So the prosecution says he assaulted you, did he assault you?” “No.” “Did he ever haze you? Did you ever feel threatened? Did you ever feel in danger?” “No, no, no, actually I wanted him to be my– To be the person that pinned me on when I picked up corporal but the command wouldn’t let me because he was charged and they didn’t want it to happen. I think that he’s an amazing Marine.” That was the kind of case that that was so it was easy, basically their case made our case and so at the end of the trial we were like “So jury like we said, at the end of the day when you hear all of the witnesses you’re gonna come to the same conclusion we came to, which is why why are we here.” And they did and they had to convict him of drunk and disorderly conduct, he was drunk and disorderly, it was completely stupid they were all just rough housing and playing around. They were all drunk and disorderly though, he was just the only one that got charged and so he got convicted and he got a reprimand and it was �Heath, Robert like yay we spent three days of everybody’s life to do what we could have done in the CO’s office. Interviewer: “So these were different from NJP, non-judicial punishment, it’s more of like a captain’s mass, this is a real criminal case.” Exactly, this is a real criminal case that should have been a captain’s mass or an office hours or an NJP right but at the end of– And this was the thing that I saw over and over and over again which is why I wanted to be a company commander like I wanted to be the person making those decisions or recommending to my battalion commander what we should in those situations. I want to be in those legal meetings because a lot of times what happens is– It’s incomplete information going through the chain and so of course if I’ve got 70 problems and I’ve got something that looks a little bit like a problem I’m gonna run it through the system because I’m getting incomplete information and so I can’t rely on you’ve looked at this, you’ve thought about this, you know about this and so I can say “Nah we don’t need to do that.” Normally by the time it gets to the battalion commander he’s the person– Or she’s the person that’s having to stop the train because everybody else is just passing it along, it’s not my job, it’s not my job. (1:32:30) Hey they did something wrong, how do I cover my butt? I make sure I pass it up, never be the highest ranking person with a secret right. Right and so there’s this idea of just pass it through and let the system do it, the system will work it out, but that’s not what’s best for the Marine or sailor that’s in your charge, that you’re charged with taking care of, just because you think they might have done something wrong doesn’t mean they’re not your sailor or your Marine and that’s the thing that was so problematic for me, and so as a company commander that was what I really focused on. There were a number of times– I mean I had Marines that did stupid stuff, I had a Marine that got a speeding ticket going 75 in a 35 right. Interviewer: “Sounds like a Marine.” Right, and then– He was on a motorcycle and it was a stretch of road at 10:30 at night, what’s the harm right, that was his thought. Now we could have run him up the mast and gotten him in a whole bunch of trouble, put a 6105 on his record, all the rest that type stuff but we looked at the �Heath, Robert Marine right. Who was he, had he been in trouble, he wasn’t a troublemaker he just got promoted to sergeant, which you could look at at it one way, he should be a better example, or you can look at it like he’s 23 and he has a motorcycle and it’s Camp Lejeune at ten o’clock at night, like any single– Like these are the types of things that they do, we don’t catch them hardly anywhere near as much as it happens and so how do we make an example? We had him teach about how stupid of an idea that was and why he shouldn’t do it and what he could’ve done, we used him as a tool to make the entire unit better and at the same time we made him a better leader. Interviewer: “Yeah and you taught him a lesson, you taught him you know this could’ve been much worse if we decided to send it up but instead we’re making it better for you and the Marines.” Exactly, because my job as a company commander was to develop you into a better leader right and I don’t do that by just slapping your hand all the time, right especially at the end of the day he got a ticket, like there’s not a whole bunch we’re gonna be able to do. All the administrative stuff that we would’ve done would not have taught him the lesson that the sit down, the conversation, and the making him teach what he learned did for him and did for them. I didn’t have another speeding ticket the entire time I was commanding. Interviewer: “There you go, so what years were you commander?” (1:34:47) So I was company commander from June of 2015 to July of 2016. Interviewer: “Okay, and in the hierarchy where exactly does company commander sit?” Okay, so in the unit that I was commander of I was bravo company commander for headquarters support battalion Marine Corps installations, Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune, Marine Corps installations east. So basically if you look at the entirety of the base of Camp Lejeune, North Carolina there’s a commanding general that’s over the base and he runs all of the different sections. The G4 which is logistics, the G6 which is communications right, the G1 which is admin, all of those sections he has all of the civilians and all of the– All of the military personnel �Heath, Robert that are involved in that, and then they have– There’s a number of tenant commands like the two MEFis on– The 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force is a tenant of Camp Lejeune, 2nd Marine Division is a tenant of Camp Lejeune, there’s a number of different tenants that he works in kind of cohort with to be the support of those units and what they’re doing. Underneath the general is headquarters and support battalion for Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune, and that’s my boss who was the colonel at the time, Colonel Seagraves was my boss and during that his purview is all of the administrative work that is kind of below the colonel level or at the same level– He was peers with everybody that was– So the G4, the senior logistics person on the base or the senior kind of transportation, logistics, food services, management, all that type stuff, that person he was a peer with but he was also positionally superior to. So all of those people and all of their subordinate commands were underneath headquarters and support battalion and we were in charge of them administratively and any disciplinary, any issues like that we took care of. Anybody needed to get court martialed if anybody got in trouble, if anybody needed to get training, if anybody needed all the basic things for the upkeep and the care of the Marines we were the high point of that chain. So that was headquarter and support battalion, I was bravo company, there were four companies: Alpha company, bravo company, India company, and security company. (1:37:20) Alpha company had a number of different units and we did a reorganization during that year so that’s the reason why I’m trying to remember what it was like when I first started. Alpha company had kind of like the post office and the postal Marines were under alpha company–And this is the base post office now, Camp Lejeune had about 45 to 50,000 personnel aboard the base so the base post office was a big concern to a number of Marines. They had– Alpha company also had legal support services section east originally, and that was another 200 or so Marines, about 40 officers and then alpha company had a number of other smaller units that were part of it. The whole company I wanna say was about 230, 240 Marines when it first started, maybe 270 Marines. Bravo company I had about 25 different sections that were kind of hodge podged– A collection right. So I had the combat camera Marines, I had the G6 Marines which was the communications branch, communications arm, I had the phas-mo Marines, which phas-mo is they go and do inspections to make sure inventories are kept up, that we know where all the weapons are, that we know where all the equipment is. They go and inspect the units to make sure they’re doing the systems the right way. I had the EOD Marines, so the explosive ordnance demolition and disposal Marines, that was a unit I had �Heath, Robert that was aboard Camp Geiger, I had mizzou which was an administrative section, it was aboard Camp Johnson and then I had, like I said the G4 Marines so the food service Marines, DMO which was the transportation management and dependent management arm of the wing. So anything that got moved from Camp Lejeune somewhere else, when people PCS and everything those Marines, those were my Marines and I had a number of other different sections, like I said there were about 18 to 20 different sections that I owned across the base. We did the reorganization I also wound up getting the legal support service section that came underneath my purview and there were a couple of other sections that we added as well the– Not personnel, the base PAO office which is the public affairs office, came under my purview as well so we went from being the smallest company in the battalion, we had about 220 sailors and Marines to start off with, we had the boat crew, the Navy boat crew that was on the base. So they patrolled all the waterways and make sure there was nobody doing anything they shouldn’t be doing on the waterways aboard Camp Lejeune because there’s a number of rivers and inlets that run through the base, that was part of my group as well. When we did the reorganization we went from 220 to about 385 Marines and sailors that were part of my organization. (1:40:20) Now when I started I had a staff of five, when we did the reorganization I had a staff of five so. It was good though because my staff they were a well oiled machine, they were running it, they did phenomenal things and we actually did a great job. So we went from being the smallest company in the battalion to one of the largest companies in the entire Marine Corps, and it was a wild ride, it was a lot of fun. Camp Lejeune has a beach, we own the beach debt so I had the baywatch crew, that was my– They were my Marines as well and then we housed a number of different units, kind of the RBE, remain behind elements, for a number of different units that would– When they were deploying we were in charge of them and responsible for them as well. Interviewer: “Okay, what rank were you at this point?” Okay, so I was a captain at this time, I pinned on captain cause one of the– One of the benefits of the program that I was in was even though I didn’t wind up getting paid while I was in law school I was picking up time and service, time and grade. So I picked up captain, I want to say it was November of 2013 so while I was at naval justice school I picked up captain and so I was a captain for the majority of my active duty service in the Marine Corps. So my first year I was a �Heath, Robert butter bar when I went on eight-OS orders during the summer and then the second year I was a butter bar and then I got promoted to 1st lieutenant and I spent all of training as 1st lieutenant and then I picked up captain just as I was finishing up naval justice school training. Interviewer: “Okay, and you just stayed captain until you got out?” Yeah I stayed captain until I got out and interestingly enough like I was telling you before we started talking I got notified because I’m still in the reserves technically, like I’m on the roles in the reserves, and my wife and I talked back and forth about whether or not I’ll pick up a reserve billet here but I just got selected for major. Interviewer: “Congratulations.” Oh thank you. Interviewer: “That’s a heck of an honor for a reservist to get right?” (1:42:25) Yeah it was– Definitely I didn’t expect it and I mean I felt like my career and the things that I had done while I was in Marine Corps because– I was company commander and I received Marine Corps commendation medal for my time there and the things that we did, I also– Because– And then I went and I picked up a billet, I was the regional civil law officer so that was a major’s billet that I held after I went into– And I was still a junior captain at the time. I did that billet for six months and transitioned it over to a major but during that period of time I also revamped how we did the work that we did and shrunk our lead time on the request for information and request for documents that we would get from 14 days to about five days external, three days internal and during that period of time I ran– So the Navy Marine Corps Relief Society does an active duty fund drive every year and technically the coordination of that committee and the coordination of that event is another major’s billet that I held concurrently with the other major’s billet that I had and so I ran that and we actually were able to raise over $230,000 that year aboard Camp Lejeune and so while I was in I felt like did– I had a pretty good career, I always got good marks and I wanted to be in career designated while I was in the �Heath, Robert Marine Corps and so that kind of distinction as an officer what they do is they look at your first tour and they say, okay when you’re about two and a half, three years in they say okay they put everybody on a panel and who are we going to select that we think should remain in the Marine Corps, should be able to go basically to 20 years and so once you go through that board, you get selected, your career designate candidate it basically says that the Marine Corps thinks that you can remain a Marine Corps officer, you’ve been pretty good while you were there. Interviewer: “Yeah I can see why they’d want to keep you.” Well thank you I appreciate it, but yes I’m really excited about– Like I love my Marine Corps experience, I love the Marine Corps and I think that getting out was more, it was a family decision. It was interesting because I didn’t wind up deploying and one of the things that I realized over the time that I was there was how much anxiety that like, that possibility caused my wife. I would be remiss if I didn’t– Or I would be less than honest if I said that she was excited about me joining the Marine Corps when I joined at 27 and we had a two year old baby. She was supportive but she was definitely not excited and I think I didn’t realize how much stress and anxiety the service takes on the spouses and I learned that over the course of my time in the Marine Corps. (1:45:29) We did a lot of– I did a lot of retirements as a company commander and a lot of ceremonies for Marines and you– One of the things that always struck me was the comments from the family and there’s so many times where it was, you know we missed you a lot, we loved you a lot and one of the things we tried to do is we always gave– We always gave certificates of appreciation to the family members at the retirement because of the sacrifices they made and just hearing all those stories over and over again really put into kind of context what my wife was doing and what she was going through and so that is something that when I made the decision not to continue my career in the Marine Corps it was in large part because of the fact that my family really wanted me at home and even though I was stateside I remember it was a time period– Especially because I did defense which was lots of hours, lots of times. I was visiting my clients in the brig, I was staying up late and coming home at, you know 11, 12 o’clock cause I had these cases that were really important and the stress of it was always on my mind so– And then I went to company command, you’re 24/7 commander it’s not like oh nine o’clock to five o’clock and then I don’t got to worry about it. I get, you know messages in the �Heath, Robert middle of the night, all those types things, so even though I was home my wife would talk about I wasn’t home, I wasn’t present and that was something that she really wanted and so I kind of made the decision for my family that I’m not going to continue pursuing that track because I wanted to be home and to be available for them especially because what my wife started to realize was over the years that we didn’t deploy then the– And if it was that hard when we didn’t deploy what was it gonna be like when I’m gone for six, seven, ten months, twelve months and so I really applaud the families that have endured deployment and the spouses that you know held the home front home and those Marines and sailors that have had to do it. It’s been– It was definitely an eye opening experience to me for the tremendous toll that it takes on the family. Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s one of the driving factors for a lot of people that get out of the military is they want– They want a solid family and yeah. So when you were, just to jump back just a little bit, when you were a company commander was there any– Other than the restructuring, was there any big things that you think are noteworthy?” (1:47:55) Well I mean as far as accomplishments or anything like that one of the big things that I was proud of is our battalion in general had had a readiness rating that was relatively low and these are mainly administrative issues, number that we get from the Navy docks, numbers that we get from here and the way that things need to work. We wanted to have 85% readiness because what 85% readiness says is that 85% of the battalion at any time if we needed to go and send people to deploy is ready to go and we were consistently hovering, you know as a battalion somewhere around 82 to 86% but in my company when I took over we were at 74% and one of the things that I was struggling with was in the two months from the time I took over until I started figuring out how to get my head screwed on right we were– We dropped from 70%-- 74% to 70% and what was hardest about that was, you know I’m putting in hours, I’m doing– I’m there seven in the morning I don’t leave till seven, eight at night and like trying to figure out all these things and trying to get people to do stuff they need to do, we gotta get people to range, we got to get people to the doctor, we gotta get people taking classes, we gotta get all this stuff done and ultimately what I learned was– And this is a really important leadership point for me, I learned that, you know I’m good and I can work hard but at the end of the day leadership is about getting other people to do great things and getting other people to manifest or to bring forward the �Heath, Robert greatness that’s within them and so it didn’t really matter how hard I worked, it mattered how effective I was at bringing out the best in my people, and so when I started changing my focus and really started focusing more on putting people in positions to be successful and setting up systems that worked for my people instead of systems that worked intellectually in my head and were great for me to do, then we were able to do tremendous things. We actually increased our readiness from 70% to 90% over the course of about four months and consistently stayed above 87% and that was with an upper cap of 93%. So 7% of my company at no point in time was going to be ready because of, you know, administrative barriers. So some people were, you know hurt, they were still eligible for state side service but they could never deploy, some people were on maternity leave so they just had a baby and there’s mandatory 240 days that you had to wait before you were eligible to deploy because you have to get cleared by all the medical docs and all the rest that type stuff, you had other people who were getting ready to retire and so they’re nondeployable because they don’t have enough time left on service, that type of thing. So 7% of my company was never going to be in that administratively ready to deploy and so to get to 90% out of 93% was a tremendous accomplishment for us and especially coming from where we were at 70, so that was kind of a cool experience. (1:50:54) One of the things that happened while we were there, and there was this big push to really– To have better security around the bases. I don’t know if you remember that was when there was some of the random shooter attacks at Marine Corps recruiting stations and Navy recruiting stations and things like that so there was this big push all over the country to really reevaluate our security posture and so there was a lot of training that we did to get increased support personnel, especially when we would raise the defcon levels and force protection levels and so we were instrumental in getting people trained and figuring out how we were gonna do that and everything because being the second largest Marine Corps base there’s a lot of kind of eyes focused on what we did and so getting our people trained and going through those courses was important. There was a lot of active shooter training that we wound up doing as well and then, like I said, I got to be involved in a lot of kind of conversations about legal procedure with Marines because every meeting– Every commander’s meeting, every staff meeting that we had we had a legal meeting and what I got to see was the number of those cases that we were really struggling with start to decrease because we started learning and becoming a lot better at dealing with it at lower levels and that was something I felt really happy about being instrumental in. �Heath, Robert Interviewer: “Okay, so you said you had five support people with you as like your core group, were they all officers?” No, no I had– It was I was the only officer, normally in a company you have an executive officer as well who’s normally a first lieutenant or second lieutenant that’s working there but my company was set up it was me, my first sergeant, my company gunnery sergeant, I had my barracks sergeant– Barracks manager and then I had a clerk that was in my office and then for about the first half of that year I had a staff sergeant who was my company gunnery sergeant who was also getting ready to get out and get medically separated and so there was a little bit of an overlap with my staff sergeant when we got a company gunnery sergeant that came in and so we had– We had the six personnel for a little bit but with my staff sergeant that was– He was kind of transitioning out so we didn’t give him a lot of stuff to do because he was hitting medical appointments and doing stuff like that so. Interviewer: “Yeah, did you ever have any pushback from your enlisted guys cause I know a lot of senior enlisted don’t have the best view of junior officers? I know at that point you weren’t really a junior officer but you’d only been in like eight years.” (1:53:30) Yeah, right and at that time I had only been in five years and I had been active for three and a half– Two and half, three years, so what was interesting about it– And this is where my father being a staff NCO was really helpful to me, I always grew up everybody I knew were enlisted and staff NCOs and my father always told me, you know from the beginning whenever I thought about going to military he was like “Hey son here’s the deal, as an officer you need to go in and find the saltiest, longest standing, crustiest staff NCO that you can think of and sit at their knee and learning everything you can about leading from them.” So that was the kind of approach that I took to it, the other part that was really cool was even though I was junior in Marine Corps years to all of my staff, I was– My first sergeant I think was a year older than me and my company gunnery sergeant we were the same age and everybody else was younger than me so I still had age maturity and I also had a respect for their knowledge and their experience so I didn’t lead from a position of, alright here’s what we’re gonna do, ready go do it. I led from a position �Heath, Robert of here’s what the problem is talk to me about the solutions you’re aware of, what have you tried, what have you seen, teach me what you know and then ultimately the decision is mine to make but I loved leading by consensus because I wanted them to be invested in what we were doing. I didn’t want it to just be my plan that they were trying to carry out because that doesn’t allow them– Like I said, that doesn’t allow them to bring their genius and their greatness to the table and so the conversation that I had with my staff often times I would ask them, you know I would have them push back I would say “Okay this is what I’m thinking about doing, why is it stupid?” Right like that was a normal conversation that we would have, what’s wrong with it, what problems do you see? I didn’t want to walk around like the emperor with no clothes on, I wanted to be the type of leader that my people could feel comfortable following because they knew I wasn’t going to lead them into anything bad. I remember we watched a lot of Band of Brothers when I was in officer candidate school, in the basic school, and David Schwimmer’s character, right getting lost on maneuvers and “This fence shouldn’t be here!” And like you never want to be that guy and so I was always comfortable, I didn’t need to be the smartest guy in the room, I didn’t want to be the smartest guy in the room. (1:55:52) I was confident that I was smart and I was confident that I was surrounded by a lot of other smart guys, let’s use our intelligence and do the best thing and I feel like that’s what we did and you know my company gunnery sergeant got promoted, he’s a first sergeant now, my first sergeant is now a sergeant major and they’re leading and working with Marines and advising and helping and I’m still friend with those guys to this day. Interviewer: “That’s awesome. So that’s what you did right up until you decided to get out?” So no, after I left command I transitioned command in 2016 so I had another year, year and a half that I was in and I spent six months and it was interesting because it was about that time that I was making– That I was looking at what my decision was going to be and so I wound up getting career designated shortly thereafter and then my wife and I talked and we decided to leave the Marine Corps. So I was in legal support– Legal service I was basically, I did a lot of divorce counseling, I wound up becoming the mediator for Camp Lejeune. So there was a new pilot program we were working on to help married couples deal with their problems and instead �Heath, Robert of having to go and do, you know a divorce where both sides are kind of against each other and adversarial we started a mediation group where you could come in and we could help you to divvy all that stuff up and do a lot of stuff that you would pay a civilian lawyer to do and it would cost a lot of money on both sides, and we set up offices to do that directly inside– In the office, so I did that work, I did a lot of work with junior Marines who had kind of issues with credit card companies coming after them or you know just contracts with their lease and their tenant or their landlord and stuff like that and then we did a lot of the pre-deployment brief. So I would go to the units that were getting ready to deploy and we would give them all the information that they needed so they could be ready to deploy, how to deal with your cell phone, how to deal with your car insurance, how to deal with you know bills and all these different types of things. We would teach them about the service member civil relief act and so we had a lot of reservist units that would come in and get ready to get deployed, so they need to know can they fire me, can this happen, can that happen. We would help them and brief them on that, we would do a lot of powers of attorneys for them and so they could set up their spouses or their parents or whoever was going to take care of their estate while they’re deployed, we make sure they get will and all the rest of that type of stuff. (1:58:25) So we basically it was a lot of services and we did– I mean I briefed over 2,000 people in the six months that I was– That I was in legal support services, just getting them ready to get deployed because, like I said, the deployment rates were really high. They were– They had shrunk for lawyers but they went up for everybody else and so I was dealing with a lot of people who were getting deployed and then I got tapped. There was a major who was the civil law regional solo officer, he wound up getting deployed because at this point in time only majors were getting deployed on muse and attaching to units and so he wound up getting deployed. The colonel who was the officer in charge came to me and said “Hey look, I need somebody to do this job we don’t have any other majors that you know they can be pulled from what they’re doing and so you’re one of my senior captains, you’ve had command experience, this is an important job I need you to do it.” So I went ahead and I took that role and, you know we set about really restructuring that office to be better at what it did, do be more efficient at what it did because a lot of the weight of that– The regional civil law officer sends opinions to you know colonels, to lieutenant colonels, to generals, things that you’re going to be advising, commands out in the field and so one of the issues with that was the way that it was set up was that the officer had to do all of that work or had to at least be �Heath, Robert responsible for all of that work and because of that, like I said, system idea of thinking you know my name is on it so I have to do all of the work. That creates a funnel and it creates a choke point where that person had to do so much work, and we would have people come through the office who– You know I supervise anywhere from two to seven different attorneys at any point in time in that office and the crazy thing was these attorneys were attorneys who were coming out of law school, who were great at research, great at writing, right they were coming from some of the top law schools in the country. So they could do the work that wasn’t the question, but we didn’t have a system that was set up that allowed the officer in charge to do the part that they needed to, which is really proofreading and making sure that it was– That it was sound legal logic, we didn’t have that. So what I did is I wound up revamping the system, like I said it used to take about 14 days on some of our larger projects to get stuff out and we were able to cut that down to five days externally, three days internally where we would be able to get the work turned around, and what was even more important was I was able to remove a lot of what the officer in charge had to do so that it didn’t slow down the process as much because a lot of the slowing down of process, the old processes was they still did all the research and did everything but then they would bring it and the person would have to read through everything and decide and do all the rest of type stuff and so we created a process that was a lot more efficient so that while I was officer in charge I also wound up becoming and being chairperson of that committee where we were doing the fundraiser. (2:01:45) So I was running a fundraiser for the entire base and then I wound up getting that 11th case that I told you about, I wound up getting requested to be on another case which was a high profile case that was in Quantico. It was being tried in Quantico and it was about– It was one of the Parris Island cases during that period of time where there was a number of recruit mistreatment allegations that were going on. My case was not attached to the death of the recruit, it was not– It was in the same company not in the same platoon as the recruit that died, different staff, different people, everything else and there were no– The charges were nowhere near as severe but there was this kind of spotlight and catch all everything that’s bad and so they were trying to throw the hammer at some behavior that was really not anywhere near that level. Interviewer: “Not as bad as someone dying but still less than acceptable so to speak.” �Heath, Robert Less than acceptable but not as– Not even close to someone dying right like and so the thing that was going on and one of the things we dealt with in the case was the reality of the situation is they were trying to get people for violating the recruit training order, but when you read the recruit training order it’s so ambiguous in a lot of areas about what’s acceptable, what’s not acceptable, how you do this and where. So there’s a lot of room for discretion right, inherently when you get a lot of room for discretion what you also have is a lot of room for people to make mistakes. Now the question about your discretion and your bad judgment is not whether the judgment was bad, like we can all agree the judgment was bad, the question was is it due to recklessness, is it due to negligence, or is it just due to you making a mistake. When you look at those questions a lot of times people are making mistakes, they’re stupid actions but it’s not criminal, it’s not like you were trying to mess something up and that’s what we were dealing with in that case like there was– And my, like i said, in that case my client had already admitted in the investigation he was like “Yeah we were doing, incentive training that was illegal. We were doing incentive training that wasn’t according to the specs.” So we had him for that but that’s an NJPable offense, that’s one of those types of things where you don’t do that anymore.(2:04:07) It wasn’t anything where they were putting people’s lives in danger or anything like that so when you look at what was going on, and I want to be clear here, it’s not to minimize the behavior, the behavior was wrong admittedly by the person that was doing the behavior it wasn’t like we had to convince people that this behavior was wrong. The issue was there were a number of other things that were alleged that just didn’t happen, and there was a number of other factors that were involved like there were a couple of parents that like the reason this became a big issue was because there was a parent that wrote a red dot letter to the president. If you know anything about how that works, president gets a letter, immediately there’s an investigation right, and once there’s an investigation now everybody’s eyes is on it and immediately what starts to happen in the apparatus right is everybody starts trying to cover for themselves to make sure that they don’t get in trouble for whatever's going on. So this was an issue that I mean so much stuff happened and so many things went wrong in the administration of this because there were a lot of people who were just trying to to cover up. Understandably so like I don’t wanna– I don’t wanna act like the people who were trying to cover up were doing something bad, they were trying to make sure that they weren’t in trouble which it makes sense right, but again when you look at leadership, and this is the thing that’s so important and it’s the �Heath, Robert thing that I learned and I loved, my friends, my peers right, one of my neighbors, one of my best friends was an infantry commander, took his group, his company you know to Iraq and Afghanistan served and did things and we would talk all the time about the way that he was conflicted between what he could do for his men and what he couldn’t do for his troops and what he couldn’t do because of the fact that right you have to be worried about this constant, what if somebody thinks I should’ve done something different right, even if I’m doing what’s best for my people, even though nobody’s dying, even though all the rest of that stuff if I do it wrong I could get in trouble. There’s that part about it that makes it really difficult for a lot of people in leadership in the Marine Corps and in any large organization because you’re always– You’re held to the court of, you know subjective opinion as well as you know actual what happens. So anyway this case was a big sense of that like there was a Marine recruit that died so– Interviewer: “Big thing.” Big thing right, so these things are happening kind of concurrently in the same sequence but the way that we kind of had these knee jerk reactions like the pendulum swings all the way back to the end, that’s not rational and so anyway the basic thing that happened with the case we wound up my client got convicted for the things that he admitted that he had done and we told the story. (2:06:50) We told the story of who he was as a Marine, we told the story of what happened, like we allowed the jury to learn and we also dealt with the people who were there because there were a couple of people that the prosecution brought in who wound up– Who didn’t make it through recruit training who wound up quitting and not become Marines and let me just say that their stories were a little bit less than factually accurate right, as indicated by the other Marines who did wind up becoming Marines who were part of the unit who came on the stand and said “Nah, he’s lying. That dude he never liked him and he was always trying to make–” Like we had this stuff that happened and I mean that was one of those cases I was– We were frustrated about it a lot because it was another one of those why are we here cases, government probably spent $100,000 on that case because we had to fly people in from all over the country, I was stationed at Camp Lejeune, my co-counsel was stationed at Camp Lejeune, we had to fly to Quantico and stay in Quantico for a week to prosecute the case. All of this stuff that happened and again my client was willing to admit to what he did wrong but he wasn’t willing to admit to all the stuff �Heath, Robert they were charging him with that he didn’t do wrong and they were trying to kill his career and all this– You know in order to become a drill instructor, this is the thing a lot of people don’t realize, in order to become a drill instructor you are already one of the top 10% of Marines, enlisted Marines, like they get selected it’s not something where you just get to apply and people are like “Oh okay, sure you applied.” They’re not struggling for applications to be a drill instructor so you’re talking about very good Marines who have already demonstrated a career of service, who are sergeants or above and have demonstrated a career of service, who have already gotten reenlisted twice– You know reenlisted once and all those types of things, the Marine Corps has already said you’re good to go. Now when they get there, there are some Marines that do things that they shouldn’t do, there are people– There are things like that that happen I’m not going to act like that’s not the case but the fact that the presumption is that somebody’s doing something they shouldn’t do is the thing that bothers me because it speaks poorly about what we think about those of our service members who step up and say “I’m gonna do the hard job, I’m gonna go and do the hard thing.” And that’s what really frustrated me and that’s what frustrated me with that case and so it was really– We were really happy you know at the end when we got the verdict that we got and then we got the sentence that we got which was basically he got reduced in rank for doing something he should– (2:09:17) Right, shouldn’t have done that, that was not smart, and then he got a reprimand which said “Yeah you shouldn’t have done that, that was not smart, now go back and continue being a good Marine, learn your lesson.” Interviewer: “That’s good. Out of curiosity you mentioned incentive training, I don’t actually know what that is.” Great question, so incentive training is basically disciplinary training but it’s given a euphemistic name right. So when you’re in boot camp, and it’s changed years over years, my father-in-law was a Marine, infantryman from ‘78 to ‘82 and he came in and he talks about the differences and there’s differences even from when I went in in 2009 to now, etc, but the basic idea is when Marine recruits are not stepping up, not learning, not doing what they’re supposed to be doing there are certain approved physical punishments, for lack of a better word, that you can do. You can make them do squat thrusts, you can make them do push ups, you can make them do certain things, there are specific time frames that you can have them do those and there’s a whole �Heath, Robert procedure for it right. Now again there’s a lot of ambiguity in the procedure so I don’t want to make it seem like this is what you can do, this is what you can’t do, it’s not like that but it’s one of those things where there’s certain things that you know are acceptable or certain things that you know aren’t acceptable. That line does get blurred and– Or there are people that do things that they think are okay that aren’t okay and etcetera because I’m a lawyer I know how to read the law, they get trained in it by non lawyers and so, you ever played the game of telephone? Exactly, right but at the end of the day they were doing some training and they had been doing it long was the issue and he realized he had been doing it too long and that– So therefore they shouldn’t have done it that way and that was what he admitted to and that was the issue and the reason that it became an issue was because there was a Marine recruit who– And to spare all the details, he had wound up having a heart condition. This was a heart condition and this is the thing that is where the case became really problematic, his staff– My client and his staff were unaware of the heart condition however everybody outside of the platoon was aware of the heart condition, as a matter of fact he had gotten a waiver for the heart condition largely because his father was a sailor, was part of the– And knew how to go around the administrative tape to get him in because he had been denied to get into the Marine Corps and then they had went and went around and he had been approved. (2:11:57) So there was all of this stuff that was going on there and so normal class with normal information if he had known he had somebody with a heart condition or whatever would he have been doing that? Probably not, was it still out of the bounds, should he still not have done it? Yes he still shouldn’t have done it but this is– And this is the reason why we have rules right because you don’t necessarily know everything that can happen if you break the rules but you just need to understand that there’s a rule. That was where his judgment was problematic because if he had stayed within the bounds of what was acceptable then everything would’ve been fine, he stepped outside of the bounds and now you wind up having this kid that has a heart issue that passed out, came back everything was fine he wound up continuing, he didn’t wind up continuing training– He wound up continuing training after that but he wound up falling out because his heart condition was problematic and what it actually did interestingly enough is it put him on the radar screens because, like I said, at the base they didn’t know. So MEPS knew, MEPS is the screening organization for people to come through, MEPS knew but– �Heath, Robert Interviewer: “Boot camp didn’t.” Boot camp didn’t and so now he was on the radar and so now they watched him and they were like “Let’s do some more tests.” And he wound up getting processed out as well because he shouldn’t have been a Marine but he had been able to get through that process, but I say all that to say, again I never want to make any of this sound like these people did the right thing. Right any of my clients that were guilty were guilty, they were guilty of doing something they weren’t supposed to do, they were guilty of breaking the law, they were guilty and they should’ve been in– They should’ve had to deal with that that wasn’t my issue, my issue is always our job is not just judge, jury, and executioner, our job is leaders. We are to lead these Marines and you know there’s a letter that gets read every year from General Lejeune on the Marine Corps birthdays when we do our Marine Corps birthday balls and there’s a part of– And there’s another letter he put in the Marine Corps manual which is an officer training manual where he talked about our job as Marine Corps officers is to send back to society better citizens then they sent to us. Society sends their sons and daughters to us to train and to lead and to take care of and my big thing is when somebody does something they’re not supposed to do and they’re under my command, my job isn’t just to notice that they did something they weren’t supposed to do my job is to make sure that they leave– (2:14:20) If they wind up leaving my command, my job is to make sure that they leave my command a better person then they came to my command as and that’s something that I think a lot of people kind of shrug their shoulders at or abdicate because well we have to keep– Maintain the integrity of the unit, I’m like “Yeah we do.” But those two things are not mutually exclusive, you can take care of the troops and accomplish the mission and that was always my goal in everything I did as a Marine Corps officer. Interviewer: “That’s a good goal. So after that six month stint you processed out right?” Yeah, I finished out so I did six months in legal support and then the last eight months or so in the billet of regional law officer and then I left the Marine Corps in October of 2017. Interviewer: “Was it a difficult transition?” �Heath, Robert Yeah, interestingly enough yes and I think it was difficult for a couple of reasons, number one because I was still– I didn’t want to leave the Marine Corps, there was– And let me rephrase that. I was torn, there was a part of me that wanted to stay, there was a part of me that wanted to deploy like right I joined the Marine Corp, one of the other reasons I joined the Marine Corps was because the Marine Corps was tip of the spear, they were in the areas that we were engaged in. I joined at a time of war intentionally and it wasn’t something where– That was something that I wanted to be part of, I wanted to be part of the groups that went and to be at least supporting those people who were literally going, you know forward deployed, being the tip of the spear and one of the things that I prided myself on as a lawyer and what I wanted to was to be able to be a battalion judge advocate to talk about rules of engagement, talk about how to keep our Marines safe, how to make sure that we can take care of, you know doing our civil duties and following all of the laws and the rules of engagement but also making sure that we bring everybody back. That was an important thing all during my training, that was something that I focused on, really understanding how to have the discussion with people where they didn’t feel– Because there was so many– Like one of the cool things about Marine Corps training is every one of our enlisted advisors, every one of our officer advisors, all of them had been combat veterans they had come back. (2:16:40) You weren’t able to be in the school unless you had been over there and so a lot of the stories and a lot of the things I learned from them was, you know how difficult it was and how upsetting it was when you were in a situation and you didn’t know whether you could shoot, whether you couldn’t shoot, whether you could take care of yourself, whether you could defend yourself or whether you were just really a sitting duck and so something that was important to me and something I really focused on was understanding the rules of engagement and understand the way to teach the Marines and sailors how to keep themselves safe while still following the rules and that was something that I mean whenever I talked to people, whenever I worked with people when we had units that were getting ready to deploy, any of the rest of that, that was something I really prided myself on because a lot of people again feel like you have to toe this line and you gotta– This is how you must do it otherwise you get in trouble and I’m like alright, you’ve heard a lot of people say “Rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.” Right there’s an aspect of it that looks that way but there’s also this area where you have to be able to understand what the law says and what the law is and a lot of times there are people who are explaining the law who are explaining it to keep �Heath, Robert themselves out of trouble, to make sure they don’t get in trouble for saying something and that was something that I took pride on. I was very good at understanding the law, at reading the law right, I graduated from law school with honors, I was a dean’s fellow, I was a pretty good lawyer right, I was– During that period of time my 70% win rate was the highest win rate in the history of Camp Lejeune. So I was proud of what I did and so I wanted to make sure that I was the person that was giving that advice and I was always going to give that advice in a way that was going to keep people safe while they were in country and when they came home. So that was– So to your question that was something that I wanted to do that I didn’t get to do so getting out I was really looking at– This is when me and my wife really started having a lot of conversations because I was looking at going into the reserves, joining a civil affairs group unit, getting cross designated as a CAG officer, I had done the training I already had a seat locked in and my wife came to me and she was like “I’m just now getting my husband back like you can’t be doing this right now.” Cause I was like yeah, you know we’ll get out, I’ll be in the reserves, I’ll get a job but then I’ll be able to deploy because they deploy like every six months or so and so I’ll be able to deploy and she was like “No, like I don’t think you understand this. You just gave me the news that we’re getting out, that I’m gonna have my life back, that I’m actually gonna have my husband at home and now you’re talking about trying to leave again.” (2:19:16) And that was a really tough conversation, that was a really tough time because it was something that I really wanted to do in my Marine Corps career but I could see the pain in her eyes and I could see and hear in her voice like just it wasn’t that she didn’t want me to do it, it was that she really feared what happened and her becoming one of those– Like you talked about your father doing Caico work right? Casualty affairs counselors right and– Interviewer: “No one wants that knock on the door.” Exactly, and for her– This is what I didn’t realize, like I’m a Marine this is– I stood on the yellow footprints, I accept that possibility, for her what she saw was the light at the end of the tunnel where that wasn’t a possibility anymore when we get out and for me I’m like nah we need to make that possibility keep going because I don’t really, you know I don’t believe it’s gonna happen to me anyway like that’s the mentality. You don’t go out there like I think I’m gonna get shot or blown up or whatever and so you know you don’t process it but I could see the fear and �Heath, Robert anxiety that it brought her. So that’s kind of– Transitioning was, that was where the difficulty came in because I still was wanting to stay attached and involved and my wife was in the opposite direction and then also I wasn’t wanting to go and be a lawyer anymore like I’ve been a lawyer for four and a half, five years really and I did work in law school as a lawyer as well so really I’ve been practicing law for five and half, six years, I was– And I didn’t like the process of– For me the problems that I was solving were not actually giving relief to the people that I was solving them for. So it was a criminal law attorney right, like I said, I literally was– Seven out of the 11 people that I defended got their lives back but I couldn’t give them the time back that they had lost. Similarly the people, the other four who got convicted, all but one of them remained Marine Corps– Remained in the Marine Corps because they got convicted of the crime that they had committed, or you know whatever the infraction that they had committed, right but because it was at a criminal court then they were– They were convicted of crime, they could’ve been at NJP or office mass, any of the things that they got convicted for they could’ve been in those forms as well and so we basically got them sentences that were commensurate with that right. We got one with the reprimand, we got another he got reduced in rank one rank and was on restriction for 60 days, the other guy got reduced in rank one rank and was a reprimand, like nothing, nothing crazy but I didn’t have a passion for going out and trying to do legal work, especially for profit and I didn’t want to work in– (2:22:24) I didn’t have the emotional capacity to do any of the non profit work, like I have friends that are public defenders and like their stories are always sad and dejected because again you got people, like we got people that my friends– My wife has friends who, you know they got convicted of doing something that they didn’t do but because you don’t have enough money for bail and you’ll be in jail for two months until your trial, you plead guilty to a lesser charge so you can get back to society and still go to work and keep a roof over your head cause you got kids right and so you get a lot of people that go into the system that way and just different things that, that was something I didn’t want to be involved in and so I started a company, my company Legacy Leadership Consulting to focus on creating more leaders and building and developing more leaders in society, specifically in businesses and one of the reasons I love this focus is because the problems that I’m solving are not only helping today, they’re helping tomorrow. When I teach people and I help them to overcome the obstacles that they have to being a better leader, to manifesting, like I said, the greatness that they have within themselves and also to then teach them how to help the people �Heath, Robert that they lead to do the same. It’s so amazing because I get them past what has been plaguing them and I make their future better and the past is not really anything that we have to be concerned with, and so that has been tremendously, tremendously helpful and I always like to use the old adage right, you give a person a fish you feed them for a day, you teach a person to fish you feed them for a lifetime, and what I do with Legacy Leadership Consulting is taking that even a step further because if you teach a person to teach a person to fish you can feed the whole world, and so a lot of the problems that I saw in education, a lot of the problems that I saw good leaders dealing with in the Marine Corps by really focusing on helping people to be the best leaders that they can be and to develop systems that develop leaders we can solve all those problems because when you create a leader, when you develop a leader you don’t just transform their lives, you transform the lives of everybody that they touch for the rest of their lives. Their families, theirs spouses, their friends, their subordinates, their community because they then shine that light of leadership, they embody good leadership everywhere they go and so people get to see a different style of leadership, they get to see leadership that takes care of the person and accomplishes the mission, and that’s really– That’s the journey that we’re on now and I credit so much to the lessons that I learned in that great leadership academy, the United States Marine Corps. (2:25:13) Interviewer: “So that’s definitely had a huge impact on your life.” Oh yeah, tremendously like I cannot say enough positive about my time in the Marine Corps and how it’s affected me, how it’s affected my family, how it’s affected my outlook, serving with some of the most honorable people that walk the face of the Earth and being able to be part of that organization and the legacy that the Marine Corps has is I’m still always kind of in awe still that I’m a Marine. Interviewer: “Yeah, and once a Marine, always a Marine.” Hoorah. Interviewer: “So just a few more questions to wrap it up.” �Heath, Robert No problem. Interviewer: “I think I already know the answer to this one but I always like to ask it. If you could do it all over again would you, would you change anything?” I wouldn’t change anything, and normally I would say I would change that I would get in younger and do different things but I don’t say that because I know that I wasn’t ready younger. I would’ve washed out, I wouldn’t have been as committed, I wouldn’t have been the person that I was that needed to be– That I needed to be to become a Marine Corps officer if I had done it younger and so I wouldn’t change anything. Interviewer: “Okay, and a question I always love to ask parents. If one of your kids came to you when they were 18 and said “Dad, I want to join the Marines.” What would you say to them?” I would tell them you need to make sure that you’re serious about this and that, you know I’m all for it but you’re gonna– (2:26:42) If you’re gonna join the Marines we’re gonna make sure you’re ready to join the Marines because it’s not just a question of do you want this it’s are you ready for it are you, and I say this in all sincerity I talk to people about the Marine Corps it’s not just a job it’s a lifestyle, it’s a culture, it’s a brotherhood, it’s a sister, it’s a family and it you’re gonna be part of that family understand the role and responsibility. You’re not just taking from that family you are expected to give to that family as well, and are you ready to give what is necessary to give, and if they’re there then I’m all for it. I think the Marine Corps is a great organization I think that– I’m one of those people that’s a proponent for mandatory national service so I think that everybody should have to, at some point in time between the time that they’re 18 or 24, give two years of their life to something that is bigger than them, doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to be a service member, you know like we’ve got people who can’t do it physically I understand that but in some sort of form or fashion that you are doing something and operating in service to something greater than yourself because what it shows you and what it teaches you about who you are, about how your role interacts with the rest of society �Heath, Robert and about the inter-connectedness and the interdependence of society I think is really important so I’m a big proponent of national service in general, so if my kids wanted to go and serve in the military, I’m all for it. Interviewer: “Alright, anything else you want to talk about?” I mean I just really appreciate the opportunity to do this and what you all do with the project here I think is phenomenal and so thank you for inviting me to come and speak about my story and to all of the veterans out there especially those of you, all that have served in– The veteran of foreign wars and the veterans who have served overseas, just thank you for the legacy that you leave and I’m so proud and humbled to be part of that organization, so thank you tremendously. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HeathR2334V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Heath, Robert Sr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08 Title A name given to the resource Heath, Robert (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Robert Heath Sr. was born on September 18, 1979 in Chicago, Illinois. While living in Germany as a ‘Military Brat,’ Heath enjoyed life in Hamburg while his father worked for the Army as a supply route manager. After high school, he attended the University of Illinois where he graduated in 2001 with degrees in economics and speech communications. He joined the Marine Corps at age twenty-seven and slowly worked his way into the Officer Candidate School by 2009. While he was attending the University of Illinois Law School, Heath simultaneously worked in Quantico, Virginia, as the lawyer for the base. After graduating OCS and all additional military legal courses, Heath was stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. Over his career, Heath advised over 200 cases, taking on seventy of which twenty-five were job hearings, thirty criminal cases, and only took eleven of those to trial. Heath then served as Company Commander for B Company, Headquarters and Support Battalion, Marine Corps Installations out of Camp Lejeune from June of 2015 to July of 2016. He and his five staff members directly administered the Combat Camera Marines, Communications Marines, FSMAO (military supply) Marines, Explosive Ordnance Demolition Marines, MISO (administrative) Marines, Food Service Marines, DMO (transportation management) Marines, and several other smaller sections. By 2015, Heath held the rank of Captain since he graduated from Naval Justice School. He was later given the opportunity to rank up to Major in the Marine Reserves, but ultimately decided to leave the service due to family concerns since his wife was constantly worried about the possibility of his deployment and separation from the family. His final high-profile court case sent him back to Quantico where he worked one of the less severe Parris Island cases. Heath officially left the service in October of 2017 and found the transition back into civilian life difficult since he deeply missed the service and eventually wanted to deploy with the Corps. However, his wife ultimately persuaded him to choose family over service. He then started his own firm, Legacy Leadership Consulting. Reflecting upon his service in the Corps, Heath firmly believed great leadership takes care of both the individual and the mission at hand. He also believed that, in order to become a good Marine, one must be willing to commit as well as prepare themselves for challenge and a change in lifestyle. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3210d195f216a275311d3cdb4a89567.jpg 0b8e6712216c50983f2132565931aef7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000234 Title A name given to the resource Female student in Commons stairwell Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hedrich-Blessing (Firm) Description An account of the resource Female student in Commons stairwell. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f008420d9294ce9bdd6e153d50905b91.jpg 7a5377dd7bdd559b3a98113d4f271989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000458 Title A name given to the resource Mackinac and Manitou Halls Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hedrich-Blessing (Firm) Description An account of the resource Mackinac and Manitou Halls. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b84852d72fa340d6d47d6b4f54160c6.mp4 ceb5bb49a1869e6c14db2dd07a81e414 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2eec87443ff48dbe5c96cf44c77c720b.pdf 0fb38c81bbdec31aa6a54cd8fe5a3d95 PDF Text Text Hedrick, John Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Cold War Interviewee’s Name: John Hedrick Length of Interview: (52:36) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We are talking today with John Hedrick of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Okay, John start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” Well I was born in Wichita, Kansas, but I grew up in Newton, Kansas which is 18 miles north of Wichita. Interviewer: “What year were you born?” 1930 Interviewer: “Okay you grew up in Newton, and what did your family do for a living when you were growing up?” My grandfather was an inventor, and he had I think 17 basic patents on various devices for poultry, and hogs, and farm products in other words. And so we sold, our big item was cardboard baby chick feeders, because during the war steel was not available for the feeders and so the cardboard, we sold over a million one year, which is a lot, lot of cardboard. But they were, this was made for us or the feeders were made in Saint Joe, Michigan, by a paper box company and I �Hedrick, John worked after school, folding and mailing $1 orders for baby chick feeders. We’d sell four for a dollar, and that would feed a hundred little baby chicks during their gestation period. So my dad was into businessInterviewer: “Just to back up a little bit, so you’re born in 1930 and that’s during the depression-” Yes Interviewer: “Now in the 30’s were you living with your grandfather as well as with- or how did that work?” Yeah good question, we moved in with my grandparents in about 1929, about a year before I was born and I remember, I have a brother who’s six years older and he recalls the phone ringing at two o’clock in the morning, and Grandad answered it and then he said “Mercy! Mercy! Mercy! Mercy!” He got off the phone and said “Florence has had twins” so I had a twin sister. We lived with my grandparents for probably close to a year, and then bought a house in Newton and lived there the rest of our lives. Interviewer: “So basically the inventing business it went well enough that they could support the family during the 30’s” Yeah, very well, very very well. Interviewer: “Alright, now do you remember hearing about Pearl Harbor?” (2:57) Oh yes. Interviewer: “How did you learn about that?” �Hedrick, John Heard it on the radio, of course everything was radio in those days but yeah that was a pretty dramatic time. Probably didn't realize the full impact of that attack that it would lead right into war, but certainly remember it. Interviewer: “Now did the oncoming of the war, I mean it generated more business, but otherwise did that change the way of life in Newton or did things stay pretty much the same when you were growing up?” A lot of young men were called into service, in ‘41 I was only eleven so I had to wait until I actually went to college and graduated from college, and then went into the navy. Interviewer: “Where did you go to college?” University of Kansas, Jayhawk! Interviewer: “Now land grant schools had an ROTC requirement, so Kansas State had one. Did you do ROTC at Kansas or did you just decide to volunteer after you finished?” That’s exactly right, they had ROTC but I didn’t join it at Kansas. Seven of us, from our fraternity went over to Kansas City, we had heard that they had reopened the naval officer procurement. The OCS school, 16 weeks of school to get an officer, become an officer, so seven of us went over and applied, all passed, all went back to Newport, Rhode Island. Interviewer: “Now what year was that, that you did this?” ‘52 Interviewer: “Ok so the Korean war was on at this time?” I apologize Jim, that was ‘51, yeah the Korean war was pretty hot at that time. I was number one on the draft list so Carrie Nation was our draft officer, and I said “Well what do I do?” and she �Hedrick, John said, “Well you better enlist or I’ll have to pull you into the army” I said “Okay, I’ll enlist” So I enlisted in the navy and went back to San Diego for boot camp for about seven weeks, awaiting orders to go to Newport, Rhode Island where the school was. Interviewer: “Alright, talk about boot camp what did you do there?” A whole lot of exercises, it was a great experience really because I learned a lot of fundamental things about naval protocol and it stood me in very good stead for becoming an officer. Interviewer: “When you were doing your boot camp the unit you were training with, were you all officer candidates or were you in with the ordinary guys?” No, in with ordinary guys. I remember one young man came from Arkansas, didn’t have a suitcase, didn’t have anything, didn’t have a toothbrush. And he just arrived so they gave him a toothbrush and cut his hair, and fixed his teeth, he had terrible dental problems. But that was typical, we had an awful lot of, you know, young men from the hinterlands at boot camp. Interviewer: “Were there any black recruits in that class, or were you all white?” (6:22) Jim, that’s a wonderful question. We had no blacks in our squadron, and I was, they made me squadron commander because I had a college degree. Later on, on ship of course we had blacks, and I became good friends with a lot of them. But not withInterviewer: “But not with the training group?” Not in the boot camp. Interviewer: “The military was still sort of transitioning into being integrated, the order came out a few years earlier, Truman had desegregated the military officially but it took a while for that to kind of filter through.” �Hedrick, John It sure did. Interviewer: “Okay so you do your seven weeks of boot camp, and then Newport, Rhode Island is the next stop?” Yes Interviewer: “Okay what do you do there?” 16 weeks of very intense schooling and training, we studied the, all of the naval information that people at- Oh I’m trying to think here, oh shoot what’s the school, the navy school, Annapolis! We studied the same curriculum in 16 weeks that they studied in four years, as far as the navy’s concerned, so it was very intense and a great experience. Interviewer: “And what time of year were you there?” March. Interviewer: “Okay that could be interesting in Rhode Island.” Yeah we had some snow, but we graduated in… let’s see March, April, May, 16 weeks would be June Interviewer: “Now, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to being in the military? Did you adapt to military life quickly or was it a challenge?” (8:40) No, I think I adapted very quickly. I tell you, living in a fraternity at Kansas was a good background for going into the military because I’d learned to live with other guys and sleep in dorms, that sort of thing. So it was a good background. �Hedrick, John Interviewer: “What kinds of people were training you at Newport, were these old veterans or?” Mostly Navy chiefs. Yeah older guys, they seemed older at the time they were probably in their late 20’s, early 30’s, but we had wonderful training. Gosh, I just really treasure what we learned back there. Interviewer: “Now once you complete this what do they do with you?” When I graduated from OCS they assigned me to the AGC 12, the USS Estes, which is an amphibious group command ship and it was based in the Pacific. I requested Pacific duty so I got the AGC. Interviewer: “Describe the AGC as a ship, how big is it? What does it look like?” 368 feet long, 60 feet wide, it's a converted A.P.A which is a cargo ship or troop carrying. They made me assistant gunnery officer, we only had one gunman on this ship, and assistant navigator, and the first thing we did when I went aboard I said “What’s up?” and they said “Well we’re going out to Eniwetok” for some kind of a bomb test, and none of us knew very much about it at the time. It was really top secret, we were in a race with Russia in the Cold War. So we went out to Eniwetok, we sit in the atoll for about six weeks, I went scuba diving and snorkeling everyday, waiting for the scientific test of the H-bomb. The morning of the test we were 38 miles upwind from the bomb site which was in a shack on an island [unintelligble] or something like that was a weird name, which ceased to exist after the test, the island just disappeared. [Note: Bombs were tested on the islets of Bokonijien, Aerokojlil and Namu. The Namu bomb was tested on the surface, but the island was large enough that it was not obliterated. The Namu test was later than the other two, one of which detonated in the air and the other underwater, and these are likely the ones he is referring to.] Interviewer: “So this is a coral atoll so this is a bunch of small islets and kind of a ring around it.” �Hedrick, John Exactly. Interviewer: “So this is on one of them so it didn’t destroy the entire atoll, but it blew up that island.” Oh no. It blew up that island right, because the atoll is made up of all coral reefs and islands periodically. Interviewer: “Now when they actually set off the bomb, do they allow people to watch it, or do you have to look in a different direction while the blast happens or?” I had to look in a different direction, I was assistant navigator on that AGC so I was up on the bridge, but they didn’t have enough high density goggles to give me a pair. So I had to stand there with my head in my elbow, until they said you can look now. It was incredible the fireball went 50,000 feet high and it was a mile wide, three times as hot as the center of the sun, and it literally vaporized everything for one mile of width and 175 feet of depth. Which, you know, if we took right here that would be almost to Burton Street, on the north, and Division on the west. So that’s how big the fireball was, just gigantic it was much larger than they anticipated. Actually tested out they wanted about six or seven megatons of explosive, they got about 13 megatons. Interviewer: “Was this the first hydrogen bomb test?” (13:26) Yes. Interviewer: “So they really didn’t know what was going to happen” Absolutely not. It was all calculated, I don’t wanna say guesswork but it was, some of their instruments were actually destroyed by the severity of the blast. �Hedrick, John Interviewer: “Did you feel the shock itself when the bomb went off?” No. Interviewer: “Did the water absorb that or?” Probably Jim about two minutes after the thing went off a shock wave came across the surface, but it was very mild by then. 38 miles you know, it had dissipated a whole lot thank goodness. Interviewer: “Alright, so you join the navy and walk into a little piece of history right away” Oh, it was amazing. Then a week later, they set off a smaller nuclear bomb, only about two miles from us and that really rocked the ship and did some damage and got us quite a few roentgens of, what do we call that? Interviewer: “Radiation” Radiation, that’s correct. Interviewer: “So why were they doing that?” They detonated the hydrogen bomb, with a small nuclear bomb, they needed the nuclear bomb to get hot enough to detonate the nitrogen, so they were experimenting. It wasn’t that big of a gamble I guess, they kind of knew what they had. Interviewer: “But, so it sounds like it was bigger than it should’ve been if you were that close to it. Or in those days did they just not think that much about safety?” We didn’t, nuh-uh I remember seeing the plane and hearing bombs away and watching, and watching, and suddenly the thing exploded probably 2000 feet up in the air. Showered us with a �Hedrick, John lot of radiation and broke some antennas and that kind of surface damage. One young man, unfortunately, was going through a hatch when the thing went off and the hatch broke his arm, slammed it shut, but that was a fascinating experience. Here I was just a green young ensign, but got to be up on the bridge with officers and congressmen, generals. We had a real entourage of people out there to observe that test. Interviewer: “Now what did the- How long did you stay on that ship?” (16:32) Well that’s a good question, from there we went right back to Mare Island, which is just north of San Francisco, it’s a big Navy shipyard to repair some of the damage that had been done to the ship and we got involved with some Stanford girls and one of our, one of my shipmates lined up these girls that take us skiing at Squaw Valley. One of the girls’ folks had a cottage up there, so I learned to ski rudimentary. I'm very- from being from Kansas we didn’t have any hills in Kansas but it was a great experience. We would go almost every weekend, go up and ski and then I got emergency orders to report to the LST 914, which was down in Long Beach, California. Interviewer: “Okay, so roughly when was it that you changed ships?” In January of ‘52, yeah ‘52 Interviewer: “So how long in total were you with your first ship, was that just a few months then?” Yeah less than a year, about nine months. Interviewer: “Alright but before we move onto the LST let’s talk a little bit more about life on an AGC. What was- When you were out at sea what was the daily routine?” Well I was assistant gunnery officer and assistant officer of the deck or first lieutenant, which is in charge of the deck and the painting and all of those things. And it was really a good experience, I had a division of workers that I was supervising, and we played a lot of bridge and �Hedrick, John had a lot of fun on that ship. Interviewer: “Were there rules about the kinds of interactions you could have between officers and enlisted?” Not really. Interviewer: “So you could play bridge with enlisted personnel?” Didn’t matter no, I played with the dentist and the navigator and another guy. Interviewer: “Alright, so the officers on some level will still sort of stay together.” Yeah, we had a boardroom where we ate and kind of lounged. No we didn’t have a lot of contact other than, once you got out of the boardroom and out on the ship, then you had a lot of contact. Interviewer: “Okay you had mentioned before you had black sailors in the crew, did you have black sailors doing anything other than working as cooks or stewards?” (19:30) We had a couple in our deck game doing chipping, and painting, and so forth. We had a couple in the kitchen as we call it, we had one, in our little ward room which was where our officers hang out. We had one assigned to us daily, to prepare meals and serve us and do all of that. So it was a good experience. Interviewer: “So that was the traditional role for black sailors but the ones who were in the deck gang, that was actually something relatively new.” Yeah, it was. We had one by the name of Sap S.A.P, who I always say he looked like Stepin Fetchit, real loose limbed. We had a collision with another ship, and the bow of that ship penetrated ours, came right into the guy- the head as we call it, the bathroom and Sap had just gone off duty and was sitting on the john when the bow of that ship came, penetrated broke a �Hedrick, John steam line- now I betcha he’s still telling that story today. Yeah he’s a great, great guy. Interviewer: “Alright what kind of a, what was the work routine for you in terms of how long do shifts last, or when are you on or off duty?” Yeah I stood watches as an officer of the deck, we had six officers so we rotated. Stood watch about every two days, would stand for four hours, and of course we were there all through the night. During the day just kind of supervised the deck gang, and then our executive officer who was a full lieutenant left the ship, and they made me the executive officer. Which was wonderful because then I stood no watches of any kind. It really was a great experience. Interviewer: “Did the, did that ship have any other missions or things that it did while you were on except the trip to Eniwetok?” (22:15) Yeah, we would go out on training cruises, do mock invasions, go up and hit the beach and open our bow doors and lower the ramp. The protocol for that as you went into the beach was to drop the stern anchor, which you could then use to help pull you off of the beach. Interviewer: “Now did the AGC have doors in front of it like an LST or a ramp that came down?” No, the AGC was just a ship. Interviewer: “Okay so you would stay off shore-” I’m on the LST now. Interviewer: “Okay I was still asking about the AGC.” Oh, I’m sorry Jim. �Hedrick, John Interviewer: “While you were on it because we could cover that then move onto life on the LST. Okay so with the AGC, now the AGC was a command ship for amphibious operations?” That is correct. Interviewer: “Now while you’re with the AGC did you do any exercises, or was the only thing you did with them was go to Eniwetok and then come back?” That was basically it, because by the time we got there we were out there about three months, came back in the shipyard and I left the AGC while it was still in the shipyard. Interviewer: “Right now that gets us- where was the LST when you joined it?” It was at Long Beach, California when I went down there, then they sent me right to San Diego, to a couple of schools really. One was on ice navigation, what do you do when you’re in the ice because we were going to the arctic for a resupply expedition of the dew line defense bases, all around the northern coast of Alaska and clear over into Canada. But we were in the ice for 17 days, as I mentioned they had reinforced our bow doors and the stern so we could actually push the ice. We operated with two ice breakers, the Burton sounds and…can’t even think of the name of the other one, but they were our protection in case we got in real trouble. North wind was the other one. Interviewer: “Now when they put you on the LST, I mean what is your assignment on that, what’s your job?” First lieutenant, which means I was in charge of the whole deck force, also navigator. Interviewer: “And how many officers did they have on an LST?” Six officers, 120 men. �Hedrick, John Interviewer: “So you talked about getting ice training, what did that involve?” Really very very little, we were testing some foul weather gear because Korea was still on at the time, and we had a lot of suffering in Korea from the freezing, so we were testing alpaca lined coats, and that was about it. It was a very easy duty, just sailed up, stopped at Port Hueneme, stopped in Seattle to take on supplies and then went up to the arctic, Point Barrow. And who is at Point Barrow? The USS Estes was waiting there in charge of that group. Interviewer: “Alright so your old ship was up there waiting for you” (26:06) My old ship was there, yep. Interviewer: “Okay, now I guess describe a little bit, you’re up there the resupply missions, how does that work or what do you do?” Well, basically we took on about 50 stevedores at Port Hueneme and they rode up with us into the arctic, and they basically did the unloading of everything at the sight of a new dew line base. We carried a high octane fuel, a lot of electronic gear, our main deck was just covered with supplies for that. We were on the beach as it is, we roll up to the beach and open the bow doors and lower the ramp, and then they took the supplies out through the tank deck and left them there. We were, I think, three or four days during the unloading process, had a lot of stuff to unload. Interviewer: “So how do you spend your time, all that’s going on?” Fishing, I did an awful lot of fishing and hunting when I grew up in Kansas, and I had a fly rod I probably hiked up about a mile on this little stream, and never caught a fish. Never saw one, got back to the ship and they said “Boy you should see the fish those guys caught out in the bay!” Big silver fish, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. My dad had given me about a dozen rolls of film, he was quite a photographer, and I took a lot of pictures. Got home, had them developed, didn’t have single picture, the film was all out of date. A bad experience because I really had some �Hedrick, John treasures as far as photography. We saw a herd of caribou, probably a thousand caribou in this big herd. We watched them and I photographed them you know, I was really excited to get home and show everyone those, but not to be. Interviewer: “Were there any people up there?” Yes, we pulled up to this one site and pulled up to the beach, didn’t open our bow doors or lower the ramp, we just sort of sit there on the sand, and there was probably a 25, 30 foot high cliff right in front of us. So cliff and then down to the water. There were dozens of dogs lining the bank up on there, which was pretty exciting. We didn’t want any part of those dogs, so we ultimately backed off and went down to our site. That was the Eskimo village, we were on the north shore of Alaska at that time. We got as far east as the Mackenzie River, which would have been in Canada rather than Alaska, so we went around quite a ways. Interviewer: “So you’re part way through the north-west passage” (29:58) Yes we were. Yeah that was a fascinating experience to go up there, I really treasure my time. Interviewer: “Now once that mission is complete, what do you do next?” Went back down to San Diego for a little R&R, and then went to Japan and spent a year out in Japan. Interviewer: “Alright, now where were you based in Japan?” Yokosuka. Interviewer: “It’s a major naval base, is that Tokyo Bay or that area?” That is correct. That’s exactly right, I was navigator and it took us 32 days to get there, but we hit Tokyo Bay right on the nose. �Hedrick, John Interviewer: “So did you spend- Did you stay on the ship, did you go ashore much? What did you do in Japan?” Well I went ashore, I took two automobiles, took a Chevy and a Ford out to Japan aboard the ship. Sold the Chevy the day after we got there for exactly double what I paid for it in San Diego. I was gonna sell the ford and then I thought “No, I’ll do some driving” so I drove over 2000 miles, in Japan over the period of the next ten or eleven months. Interviewer: “Alright so where did you go, what did you see?” A whole lot, went up to Mount Fuji, went down the coast to Nagoya which is the big pottery place. I was, I had my shotgun with me as well as my fishing tackle so I went out pheasant hunting. I didn’t get one but I saw an old Japanese guy with a shotgun and he got one. But it was fun, I went out into the countryside which I would never had had a chance to do if I would not have had the car. Interviewer: “Now do the Japanese drive on the wrong side of the road?” (32:20) Yes. Oh sure, and that’s an exercise to reorient your thinking, particularly when you’re making a left turn or a right turn, that’s where you get disoriented. Interviewer: “Did you hit anything?” Never did, no. Interviewer: “Okay now what kind of condition was Japan in? Towns, countryside, X number of years after the war.” Well that would have been in ‘54, so nine years after the war. Yokohama was still devastated, awful lot of rubble, and they just hadn’t rebuilt it in nine years. Tokyo, pretty decent shape. It �Hedrick, John was, the attitude of the Japanese towards us, it was just remarkable. They were extremely warm and friendly, and just couldn’t have been better. I learned a little Japanese, enough to be gracious. That was a great experience. Interviewer: “So how much time did you spend in port as opposed to being out at sea during that year?” We probably spent about 80% of our time in port, we did a couple of operations. One was down right at the foot of Mount Fuji, did a mock invasion there we had Marines on board, and did a mock landing and mock invasion there. Which was very interesting, we were pulled in there when it was dark, and then watched the sun hit the top of Mount Fuji, and then work its way down, down the mountainside. It was just a beautiful sight so that was very special. Interviewer: “Now when you’re an officer on a ship like that, I mean do officers have to do shore patrol or are they responsible for men who go ashore and get in trouble, or do the officers do that? No we didn’t do any of that, later on in the reserves I acted as a shore patrol in Jamaica, that was interesting, but we didn’t do any of that type of thing. Interviewer: “Alright now if you’re spending a lot of time in port in a place like Japan and have a bunch of 19, 20 year old guys aboard, did some of them get in trouble while you were there or was everyone well behaved?” Some of them got in trouble. Our captain required every returning sailor to take a penicillin, he said “I don’t want any VD on our ship” He was quite a guy, our skipper, hopeless alcoholic, but a great ship handler and became a good friend. Interviewer: “Was he a World War II veteran?” Yes, yeah he was and, Lou Stilwell… often thought of him, he was married and had a nice wife, �Hedrick, John he’d been in about 20 years at that time. Interviewer: “So then, do you know what he did during the war or did he not tell you that?” You know I don’t have any idea, I should know but I don’t. Interviewer: “Alright now when you did go to sea was it just for training exercises like that invasion or did you transport things back and forth?” No, we had two different operations, one was the Mount Fuji experience. The other one was we were down on the inland sea of Japan, which is a very interesting and beautiful area, we went down there and went to a town called Kure, which no one’s heard of. When we left there we went up to Buckner Bay, for the invasion…come on Interviewer: “Okinawa” Okinawa that’s exactly right Jim thank you. We were a steaming darkened ship so no lights, no transmissions I mean really just trying to be stealthy, we were with six other LST’s and our squadron commander issued an order to turn “Abel, Oval, Zulu” and that’s a shackle code which they change every day. So our first lieutenant looked it up and said “Well that’s turning zero, zero, one” or turning just one degree, and none of us gave it a thought but the first letter of the alpha was not a one, it was a nine. So we really should’ve turned 90 degrees, and the LST that was on our port stern, broadsided us. That’s where Sap got involved with his famous incident, but we took on quite a bit of water and we limped all the way back to Japan to Yokosuka to a shipyard there and got patched up, but that was an interesting experience. The bow where there, the bow of that LST came in was through the stateroom behind mine, and that particular officer had come off duty and he was not in his stateroom at the time or he could have really been seriously injured because it went right through his bunk. But we got patched up enough we could limp back to Japan and spent about six weeks in the shipyard. �Hedrick, John Interviewer: “Alright now on the different ships that you’re with when you’re out to sea, did you ever get into any bad storms or anything like that or was the weather always okay?” We never had a typhoon, it really was alright for us. We hit- the worst weather we ever hit was in the Farallones, which is water just north of San Francisco. There we broke our bow, our deck, main deck. We spent about 24 hours going three miles at flank speed, as fast as we could go, and we couldn’t move. The winds were so strong they just held us stationary, but nothing out in the Pacific we were very fortunate. Interviewer: “Alright so when does the visit to Japan end?” When does what? Interviewer: “When do you finish in Japan?” Finished in Japan in 1955. Interviewer: “Was that sort of the end of your enlistment at that point?” (40:47) It really was, yeah in fact I had a date. Yeah we were in Japan from ‘54 to ‘55 got back to San Diego and I was discharged in March of ‘55. Interviewer: “Okay now did they make an effort to encourage you to reenlist?” Oh yes, oh sure. Interviewer: “Well what do they offer?” I was very very tempted, I love the Navy, enjoyed every minute of that experience. They didn’t offer really any incentives other than “hey it’s a great life and stay with it” but right about that time I met and then married a girl in San Diego. Bad mistake- so that made the decision easy as �Hedrick, John far as not staying in the Navy. Her father was a career naval officer and she never saw him, you know for years it seemed, one or two months of the year, and she said “I don’t want that kind of a life” and I didn’t either at that point. Interviewer: “Okay now did you go find a job someplace or what did you do once you got out?” Went back to Newton, Kansas, joined my brother who was in the oil business with his father-inlaw, and we spent, I spent just about six months there, where my wife had her first child. And then left my brother, just wasn’t enough room for three of us in that business, so then I moved up to Kansas City and joined the Marley Cooling Tower company. A water cooling towers have you ever heard of them? Interviewer: “No.” You remember Three Mile island? Those were Marley towers. Interviewer: “Oh okay so cooling towers for nuclear reactors.” Before any process that generated heat they would cool with water, and then we would cool the water enough that it could be recirculated rather than wasted. We were basically water conservation devices. Interviewer: “How long did you stay with them?” About 20 years, I thought I’d be with them my whole career but just wasn’t. Interviewer: “Did they run out, did they go out of business or did you just move on?” I moved on. I moved, we moved from Kansas City where Marley headquartered, I got orders to go to our Chicago office as a salesman, which is a good deal because that’s where the money �Hedrick, John was, was in sales. So it worked out very well, but it also meant I moved to Chicago from Kansas City, which we loved Kansas City. It was a tough move, but then I spent 13 years in Chicago, and then was going through a divorce, and came to Grand Rapids one night to have dinner with our distributor and met my wife. Just instant, instant chemistry it was really really amazing, so I’ve been in Grand Rapids ever since. Still representing Marley, we got into the- I started my own company and we got into the computer room, air conditioning, and cabling business along with the cooling towers. Two very diverse products but both very successful, so I was really blessed. Interviewer: “Now to look back at the time you spent in the Navy, what do you think you took out of that or how did that affect you?” (45:13) I matured a whole lot, I was kind of a wiseass I guess, smart aleck. I was always very young for my class and age, went to school when I was four and graduated when I was 19. So I just wasn’t real mature, and I think I compensated for that by, you know trying to be kind of a smart aleck. So I felt that the navy really was a time of maturing for me. Interviewer: “Okay well did you take the smart aleck thing with you into bootcamp? I mean did you act like that-” Probably not, I don’t recall that at all, because I was trying to earn some respect at that time, and I was an older person coming out of college. Interviewer: “That’s true, so by then you kind of figured out okay I have to do things differently” Yup, that’s right, take some responsibility. Interviewer: “Okay now to think back at the, about the time you spent in the Navy, are there other particular memories that stand out for you that you haven’t brought into the story yet, or anything you’ve got in your notes that we haven’t covered.” �Hedrick, John Yeah my reserve time. Interviewer: “Oh okay yes let’s talk about that.” I went into the reserves as soon as I graduated, or was discharged, went to a naval reserve battalion down in Wichita, Kansas, moved back to Newton in the oil business, went to Wichita when I moved to Kansas City then I transferred to a reserve base up there. I was there for six years came to, well let me think, yeah boy I’m fumbling. Wichita, Kansas City, in Chicago! Yeah, when I was in Chicago we cruised, went to a drill once a month, at the foot of Randolph street in the naval armory, and then went out for two weeks active duty for training, every year on different ships. So I was on carriers and cruisers, just all kinds of ships, great experiences. Interviewer: “Now you were in the reserves throughout the Vietnam era.” Yes. Interviewer: “Was there ever any of being called up?” Not really, nope. I felt very secure during that time. Interviewer: “Were there people in the naval reserve at that point, who were younger ones who were there to stay out of Vietnam that you noticed? It’s a standard dodge that people would have to avoid the draft if they could get into a reserve unit or a guard unit, then they wouldn’t go.” Jim I suppose there was some of that I wasn’t really aware of it but I’m sure there was some draft dodging. Yeah, bad time during it. Interviewer: “Okay now, which of the through your training stints kind of stand out for you, because you mentioned going to Jamaica once?” �Hedrick, John Yeah, that was a wonderful trip. We picked up a ship in New Orleans, and then took it to Jamaica and spent a week there, and then back to New Orleans again. Had some very interesting cruises, several of them were off San Diego because of my wife and being from San Diego she wanted to be out near her folks and take the kids out there, but those were great experiences, and our company had to give me the time off, that was a requirement. So I had kind of double vacation, it was a good experience. I probably took a dozen different active duty for training cruises, all of them different, all of them fun. Several in the San Diego area, New Orleans to Jamaica, that was a highlight. Interviewer: “Were they all working out of ports in the U.S?” (50:08) Yes. Interviewer: “Okay so they didn’t send you to the Mediterranean or something like that.” No, no they were all out of the U.S, and we really didn’t have much to do on those cruises, I’m- I can express disappointment at our lack of creating valuable time or using the time well. It was just kind of a vacation. Interviewer: “Alright, well I think that then probably finishes out the story here.” Yeah, kind of brings us up to date. When I married Birdie, my wife in ‘74 and moved from Chicago to Grand Rapids, then I dropped out of the reserves. I just felt like I had had enough, by then I was a full commander, and the jobs were very limited so I decided to get out of the Navy. Interviewer: “Okay, well alright makes for a good story so thanks for taking the time to share it.” Oh you’re welcome, I have made a calculation this morning just for the heck of it, of how much I’ve made in the reserves, and when I first joined the reserves it was partly because I just needed �Hedrick, John the money badly. We got one full day’s pay for every drill you attended, every reserve drill, but I figured that I had 18 years of that reserve at about $700 a month, that was for the cruisers about $700, and then I had, I’ve had a total of 52 years of Navy retirement. At about $1200 a month so that’s another $81,000 so it’s been very, very attractive and rewarding. Interviewer: “Alright well we won’t tell the budget hawks then that we’re spending all his money on you.” Alright well I appreciate it Jim, very much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HedrickJ2102V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hedrick, John Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02 Title A name given to the resource Hedrick, John (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource John Hedrick was born in Wichita, Kansas, in 1930. In 1951, he applied and was accepted into the Navy’s Naval Officer Procurement program, which would lead to him becoming an officer. He received basic training in San Diego, California, then reported to Newport, Rhode Island for officer training. He was commissioned in June 1952 and reported to the USS Estes (AGC-12). While aboard the Estes, he witnessed Operation Ivy nuclear tests at Eniwetok, specifically the testing of the first hydrogen bomb in November 1952 and the subsequent test of a smaller nuclear bomb. John was then reassigned to the USS Mahoning County (LST-914), most likely sometime in the spring of 1953. Aboard that ship he went up to Alaska for a resupply mission of bases on the Distant Early Warning (DEW) Line. In 1954, he was stationed in Yokosuka, Japan, and left Japan in early 1955. He was discharged in San Diego in March 1955. He joined the Navy Reserve and served with units in Newton, Kansas, Kansas City, and Chicago until he retired in 1974 as a commander. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c56fed701a4e518244923acf859564e1.pdf 19d8274fc7783db246a8a40d493b07c6 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Herbert Hefferan Interviewed on November 10, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #37 (55:16) Biographical Information Herbert Hefferan was born 16 January 1875 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the son of Edward and Ellen (Laughlin) Hefferan. Edward was born in Michigan about 1842 and died in Grand Rapids on 1 January 1900 at the Kent County Jail. Ellen died 22 May 1903 at the family home on Quimby Street in Grand Rapids. Both Edward and Ellen are buried in St. Andrews Cemetery. Herbert died March 1972 at Blodgett Hospital and is buried in Woodlawn Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: Alright. I suppose… Herbert: You will want to know my age first wouldn‟t you?. Interviewer: Yes, go ahead, how old are you? Herbert: I‟m ninety-six and a half. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: I am the oldest man here. Interviewer: Were your born in Grand Rapids? Herbert: Yes, I was born on Monroe Avenue, two blocks north of the Pantlind Hotel, it was Canal Street then, only across the road, across the road from… it was called Canal Street. Interviewer: Were (there) homes down there? Herbert: No, there were buildings. Same buildings were up until they tore them all down. It was the Crisp(?) Block, I was in the Crisp(?) Block. Now I am thinking about that, that took place, we lived on the third floor, a tenant that lived on the second floor, a store on the first floor and in the basement where my father ran a saloon. Interviewer: Hmmm. Herbert: My father had, a man had a fight with a woman and he killed another man but not in my father‟s saloon, up on the street. And the man run across the road and ran upstairs to the hallway to the top of the third floor and hid behind a chimney. Well, they put my father who was six foot �2 one and a half weighed one hundred ninety-five pounds, they put him watching down the stairs. But he didn‟t have no gun, and this fellow on the roof had a gun, so my father wouldn‟t stay any longer, so he beat it. And ever afterwards, we would jolly him about it. We used to buy ten cents worth of peanuts and Mother, I, Father and all would go down and sit in this hallway and we‟d all kid him about running away. And here is the funny part of it, twenty-five years later I come down in an electric car and Joe Smith, do you remember Joe Smith?, [He] and [Dad] were [the] only two detectives and Joe Smith was standing in front of this same hallway when I got off this electric car. I lived up on the north end on Quimby Street came down on the car and I got off there and here was Joe Smith and he had a gun out and putting cartridges into it. I said, ”What‟s the matter Joe, what happened?” Well you know Lapman that runs the tramp boarding house, a tramp robbed him last night and killed him He is up on this roof and you are just the right man, that I want. I want you to stay down here at the foot of the stairs, and (this is twenty five years later), and watch it. I said alright Joe, but make sure to bring him down. When he went away, I ran over to the store, the Heyman Furniture Company, it was two hundred feet away and our night watchman had a gun. He carried it at night and he left it in my drawer, in my desk. So I run over and got this gun, and I got back there Joe had came down from the top of the roof, and he had the guy and had manacles on him. Interviewer: I just wanted to make sure it was being picked up (apparently the tape recorder). Herbert: I‟ll have to give you another; I was always mixed up in murders. In Los Angeles, did you ever see a man kill another? Interviewer: No. I‟ve seen a man get shot, but the man didn‟t die. Herbert: But he didn‟t die? Interviewer: No Herbert: I saw two and they both died. I was going down the street in Los Angeles with Mr. and Mrs. Stonehouse, we had an apartment together down there. We were going down Sixth St., down past Jack Dempsey‟s place and we were just going to cross the road and there was a policeman in the middle of the square, he rode this way and this way, and he was in a box. This is what they would do in the old days, they would turn this way, and they wanted you to stop and let the others go. This man ran out of a restaurant and he ran right towards this policeman, and we had just got within about ten [to] fifteen feet of him, when another man came out and begins to holler, “Stop thief, stop thief!” The fellow that was supposed to be the thief ran right towards the policeman. Now the policeman didn‟t have no jury, or asked him if he done it, or tried to arrest him or anything, he just picked up his gun and took aim and shot him right through the temple, dropped dead right in front of us. I was from here to that... Interviewer: The policeman shot him? �3 Herbert: Shot him dead. Interviewer: He shot him? Didn‟t even know if he was guilty or not? Herbert: Didn‟t know anything about him, never seen him before, took shot him right through the temple, killed him deader than a door mat. Aunt Mattie, I‟ll show you my Aunt Mattie, and I got Uncle Albert. This is my family in here. You come right up here. There is my Aunt Mattie when she was twenty-seven years old; she was eighty-five when she died. This is my sister in the center here, she died two years ago. Right back, my Aunt Mattie owned them vinegar quarts back there. They were all a hundred years old, every one; we bought them brand new and gave them to her. Then she gave them to my sister in here. Interviewer: I knew your sister. Herbert: Did you? Interviewer: Sure, Mrs. Thrall, that‟s her right there. Herbert: No, that‟s Mrs. Beaton. Interviewer: This is Mrs. Thrall. Herbert: That‟s Mrs. Thrall, that‟s my sister in the center, you see. That‟s Dr. Beaton‟s wife there, and that‟s Dr. Beaton‟s child. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: This is Mrs. Thrall‟s daughter. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Now, we had the Indians, you know where the orphan asylum is? Well, you go up to College Avenue and go down the hill to the creek, you know? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Down there, that was been a woods. Now, the government had set up a place for the Indians at Ada along the river bank. They gave them tents and gave them food, but they didn‟t have any wood to burn. So they had to come down here and gather wood. Right there at that creek on College Avenue, it goes up one hill; there are two different hills there. You know how it is there? Interviewer: Right at Leonard, College and Leonard? Herbert: Right down from Leonard, College Avenue, you go down there .Well, they didn‟t have no wagon to draw it. What do you suppose they done? �4 Interviewer: I don‟t know? Herbert: They went to work and cut down two trees, the roots of the trees they cut off around like that and the narrow parts acted as fills(?) for the horse, and they put the horse inside the fills there and they had a box on top of these two trees and instead of the wheels turning around they just dragged on ground from the roots of the trees, two roots on each side and they could lead the horse. Well, they filled the box with wood and drawn it out to Ada, where they had their place. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Comical and really quite a thing to see what did with the knowledge that they used to get that. And some nights and then afterwards, they would sell… it will come to me in a minute, a common thing. I am beginning to forget a lot of this stuff. My age is going against me. Anyhow they took all that stuff and drew it out there. And then in the middle of the winter, they…in January, you know how there is a January thaw, well, they came back after more. It was warmer weather and all the snow would go and that is why they called it Indian Summer. They would draw the wood out. They had it on the other side of the river. Along the river bank was where they had their reservation. Interviewer: Now, that‟s not there anymore, is it? Herbert: No, but it was until up to ten or fifteen years ago, there were some signs of it; a sign up there told where it was. Interviewer: Yes. Where did you grow up as a child, on Monroe Avenue? Herbert: No, we lived on College Avenue, see we lived up on North College Avenue, where we had five acres of land. And black bears, wild black bears, used to come out and eat our strawberries. Interviewer: Where abouts was that on College Avenue? Herbert: The house is still standing. Interviewer: Where is that? Herbert: You know where Spencer Avenue is? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Quimby Street, right between them two, on the east side of the street. The house is still standing. Pages lived there last I knew. Interviewer: That was quite a ways out in the country then, huh? �5 Herbert: Well, no it ain‟t so very far from where they were down to Plainfield Avenue, about a half a mile or so. Interviewer: At the time your father built the house? Herbert: He had a log house, and in the winter time my father used to build a cellar like outdoors, he dug a trench outdoors and lined it with straw and then put cabbage, potatoes and stuff like that into the cellar. And then he covered it over with dirt, straw then dirt over it. He left an opening where he could reach in, on this side and pull out cabbage or this side he could pull out potatoes. Then when we butchered, butchered your hog, we had this neighbor, we knew him real well. I forgot his name now, knew it real well when we butchered the hog we would give them half the hog. Then when they butchered one, they gave us half of it. We put half of it down in salt pork for us, and the other half of it we used for fresh meat. I had quite an experience. In the olden times the horse thief was caught stealing horses, they took him out and hung him. Hi Doty was the greatest horse thief of my time; he lived across the road from us on Spencer Avenue. And they came to me one day, when I was about twelve years old and they said they were going downtown to do some shopping, they had two sons and they took one son with them and they‟d be back at five o‟clock. And I didn‟t know he was a horse thief, our folks didn‟t know he was a horse thief, but he had about twenty horses in the pasture up about half a mile from where we were standing then. Hi Doty, and Bill Doty and the son who worked with him, Jay Doty worked with the mother and didn‟t steal or anything and the other two did. Well, two men came along and wanted to see Doty. And I told them he would be back at five o‟clock. So they said, “Do they have any horses? We want to buy some horses. We want to buy some horses.” I said, “Sure come on I‟ll show you.” And I took them down, and we went to this field and I left them there and they were writing down stuff. I didn‟t know what they were doing. Five o‟clock they drove in, Hi Doty drove into the yard, I ran down to tell him there were men there and they wanted to buy some horses. Men stepped out from behind there with revolvers and took him and sent him to jail. They got life. It was written up in the Grand Rapids Herald. Did you ever hear of the Grand Rapids Herald? Interviewer: Sure. The Grand Rapids Herald? Herbert: Two or three times in was written up. Two or three write ups, must be in the library by now, didn‟t mention my name. Interviewer: Oh. He got life imprisonment for that? Herbert: He got life in prison for that. Both he and his son, they were the ones that stole those horses, instead of hanging them, he got life in prison. Interviewer: What kind of name is that, Doty? Is that Irish name? �6 Herbert: No, I think he was a Yankee, an out and out Yankee. The Press, the Grand Rapids Herald had a number of write ups about him. Jay Doty, the famous horse thief. Herbert: I, I went to work I went downtown to work in eighteen ninety-five, near as I can remember. I went to work across from the Michigan Trust Company. You know where the Michigan Trust Company is? Interviewer: Yes Herbert: The corner of Ottawa there, a carpet store Smith and Sanford, where the Michigan Trust Company is now was an apple orchard. I saw them cut the trees down and build the (Michigan) Trust Company. I saw them build the old City Hall, that they‟re tearing down and I saw them build the old Court House. Took them five years to build the Court House, they didn‟t have enough money. The last argument was they had to put a cupola on it, like a church on top and they didn‟t have enough money. It cost four hundred dollars. They were fighting it as much as they could, and finally decided to do it. And the ones opposing it said, now I kind of forget…., let‟s see the ones opposing it said it would be a home for the doves. And they argued it over and anyhow they got the four hundred dollars and built the cupola and that night the doves move in. Interviewer: Now the City Hall was built in the eighteen eighties, wasn‟t it? Herbert: Yes. Interviewer: Were you working downtown then, how old were you when you went to work? Herbert: I must have been about fourteen years old… Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: …when I went downtown to work. Interviewer: You used to go down as a child. Herbert: Now here is where I have the advantage over everybody that wrote any books was, that the city limits first extended to Wealthy Avenue and to Sweet Street and then they kept extending it, see, and anybody living down on Wealthy Avenue didn‟t know what was happening at Sweet Street, cause there was no way to go unless you had a horse and wagon to travel. But us kids went everywhere you see, we went down to the south end and went to the north end. And we went on the river when the ice, iceskating on the ice up to Plainfield and back. Use to build, used to get lumber, wood out of the yards from the factories, the logging companies, see they were cutting up pine. Pine was ten dollars a thousand, that‟s what white pine was. And I went to work in the grocery store Lafoyes for a dollar a week and they give me my meals. I had to be there at six o‟clock in the morning and had to stay until nine o‟clock at night. And I had to come down Sunday and take the horse out to give him a drink to the well, water for him, and curry him all, clean out the stable and everything for him for a dollar a week. I worked until nine o‟clock �7 during the week and twelve o‟clock on Saturday nights. Then I went downtown to work, and I worked in this carpet store across where I was talking about, that was there near College Avenue and North Avenue and Spencer. Then I got in to fracas ….that pretty near cost me my life. Mr. Heyman was head man, Mr. [A. Amos] Raven was the general manager, a man named Rankins worked in the, was manager of the carpet department. I worked in the carpet department under Rankins. They caught Rankins out, I just am mentioning this, but they let him go. They gave me the job of manager of the carpet department. I got up to fifteen dollars a week and after that, Mr. Raven was the general manager and he and I were very friendly but this Rankins and he were not very friendly, they were fighting all the time. When he fired Rankins, why he put me in place of him in the carpet department at fifteen dollars a week. I worked a couple of years that way, when Mr. Raven was taken sick and whenever he went out to dinner or he went away anywhere, he called me downstairs to take charge. So when, I was appointed general manager and received quite a larger sum. There was a Hollander, he was the oldest one there and as a salesman he drew eleven dollars a week. And when they made me manager he quit working, he was so mad because they didn‟t make him, they used to make the oldest person in the institution a head instead of the best man they thought for it. When they made me general manager, why he quit his job and went and bought a dry goods store. He and I were always friends but he was sore at, he didn‟t get the job, you see. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: I came on one day, Mr. Heyman was headman I was next, Bill Decator was next and he had a credit man he was next to okay sales. You‟d come in and buy two hundred fifty dollars worth of stuff and paid fifty dollars down, so much a week; he could okay the sale, if everything else was satisfactory. One day he okay‟d a sale that was five hundred and fifty dollars and one hundred and fifty dollars down and he took fifty dollars down and delivered the goods without the… I wasn‟t there that day, and he delivered the goods without the other hundred dollars. And he did it with only fifty dollars down. Well, doubt, he‟d have permission had I been there, but he took it upon himself. Anyhow the people didn‟t pay it and he delivered the goods. Then it was up against me to take over from there and sent over after the goods. And in come three men and three women, they were tough looking guys. One of them was a big guy. And I didn‟t know at that time, but do you remember Dillinger that was shot down by the FBI in Chicago? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Well, this guy was Dillinger‟s right hand man, robbing banks and one thing and another. He came in to see why I sent over after the goods and I told him. [He said,] “Well, I‟ll have that money tomorrow.” And I said, “That won‟t do, you promised it today and we want it today.” He said, “How the hell you going to get it?” I said, “We‟ll have to send over after the goods.” He said, “You‟re going after the goods?” And I said, “I don‟t know, I might. I‟m not sure what I would do.” And he said, “That will be the last trip you ever take.” He said, “I don‟t like the looks of your mug.” And I said, “I don‟t like yours either.” He says, “What are you �8 going to do?” I said, “I told you just what I was going to do and I‟m going to do it.” He pulled a gun out and stuck it in my chest and said, “I will blow your god damn guts out.” The girl cashier sitting on a high stool toppled off, [and] the colored man and colored woman run in the back room and I was there alone. I pulled the drawer open where the night watchman‟s revolver was and I let him see it. He said, “Pull out your gat, pull out your gat, we‟ll take ten paces here. I‟ll kill you deader than a door mat. I should have let you have it in the guts anyhow.” The others came all running down then and they grabbed a hold of „im and pulled him away and they went up and pretty soon he came down and said, “Buddy I‟ve been drinking.” And he said, “I‟m sorry and I want to apologize.” And I said, “That‟s all right, we all get that way.” He said, “Well if I hadn‟t been drinking I wouldn‟t have done it.” We shook hands and I went up with him. He said he would come in and pay it the next day. The next morning when the Grand Rapids Press came out, there was a robbery of the bank only one block from where we delivered the goods. So I knew right away who done it. So I went up and told Ab Carroll or who I told, but Frank O‟Malley, I forget now which one it was I told about it. But he said, “Okay we‟ll take over from here Hefferan.” Waited all day, didn‟t hear nothing from him, so it must have been the wrong people that I gave him the tip on. So I took three rigs and six men and sent them over to the place at night, about seven o‟clock, it was dark. And I told two of them to go up to the house and the rest to stop a block away from the house and two of them to go up to the house, and tell them they were there to make legal demand for the goods. If they didn‟t give it to them, we put it so we could re(?) them, see? Is it alright? Interviewer: Yes, go ahead. [END OF SIDE 1 31:10] Interviewer: Five men came out of the bushes? Herbert: Yes, they‟re five men and they had guns, and put them in their backs and stood them up against the wall. They asked them, you know, who they were and what they wanted. And they told him. They said, “Did Hefferan send you over here?” They said yes. “Well, come on, get away from here, these are our men they‟re detectives.” Interviewer: They were policemen, huh? Herbert: I didn‟t think, I gave him the right tip, see? They were hiding in the bushes around there waiting for these fellows to come back. The man that got the money, the one that was going to kill me, he took the money and went out of town. They got our men away and at twelve o‟clock they came home, these two brothers and three women, and they arrested them. And those two got life. Interviewer: Did they ever catch the other man? �9 Herbert: Well, I don‟t know what happened, let‟s see, he was the one that was going to shoot me is the one that shot the sheriff down in Indiana, released Dillinger and another fellow from the prison; this fellow that was going to shoot me. Interviewer: Hmmmm…. Herbert: So afterwards, he got into a mix-up and he went over to Wisconsin and there was a summer resort closed up but the help was still there, see? He and five others came over and took possession of it and the FBI heard about it and they worked a man in. Sent him in delivering some stuff in there and they kept him in there. They killed this FBI man, but before they did, the FBI man killed him, this fellow that was going to kill me. Interviewer: So, were they quite a few guns around in those days? Sounds like everybody was packing a pistol. Herbert: Yes, everybody had a gun. I‟ll tell you what we had more of anything then was, when the Civil War was over, then men brought back their old muskets, and in those days, they loaded them with powder and shot and a cap. And these soldiers, now for instance there was a mother that sent five sons, one of them got killed, and another had his legs taken off. The way they shot off his legs was they put a chain with a cannon ball on each end and put it in the cannon and they shot it and it went around and around and took the legs right off of one of the men. They were the Pages, the Page people. Page Street was named after them up on the north end. Afterwards he had a job down to Washington, as a door tender. He had wooden legs. He could take a pail of water and go up to a fence and go right over without spilling a drop. He used to do that as a feat. Interviewer: What was downtown like when you were working down there? Herbert: Well, they were all, I knew Grandpa Steketee, Grandpa Herpolsheimer. I knew Henry Spring, did you ever hear of Henry Spring? He was a great lady‟s man. He ran one store, and he was always dolled up and had a bouquet on every day and was a great lady‟s man. Henry, erFriedman, I knew all of them in my younger days. Interviewer: Were there people living above those stores downtown? Herbert: Live in what? Interviewer: Were people living in those buildings along down town those buildings? Herbert: Yes, they lived upstairs. if it were three story building with a three-story store they didn‟t do it, of course, but they lived up above over the stores. Mom and Dad nearly owned one at one time, had all the arrangements made and then backed out. Let‟s see, what can I tell you, else? Well, I‟ll tell you, when I was working in the grocery store I had to wash the windows and trim the windows on West Leonard Street between Scribner and Front, on the south side of the �10 street. I had a bunch of bananas I had to take down, and it was only about „that much‟ bananas, but it had a long stalk, you know how it curls out like that? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Well. I went to take it off and you had a rope from the ceiling and you put a knot here and you put a loop thru the bananas, hang them under that knot, you see. I went to take them off of there. While I was taking it off I shook out one of these spiders - tarantula. Interviewer: Tarantula, yes. Herbert: I shook him out and my arm was bare up to my elbow and lit on my arm and before I could knock him off he bit me. That was nine-thirty in the morning and by twelve at night, they told me they would let me know at twelve o‟clock if I would live or die. I spent quite an evening, and I went up there and the poison went this way, it was this hand right here, the fingers all swelled up. If it would have went towards the artery the other way, it would have gone to my heart and killed me. But it went this way and it saved me. The next morning they lanced me right there and black pus came out, just from that time in the morning at nine-thirty morning to the next morning at ten o‟clock, awful pain. Then I had a dog and there were a lot of rattlesnakes and it was nothing for us, we used to kill four to five rattlesnakes a day on College Avenue from Spencer Avenue up to Carrier Street there, Leonard Street. It was all stone in there, big stones, big as that bed you know, on the surface. Hot sun would heat up the stones, the snakes would come out on a cold day and lay on those stones. We used to go down and kill them, it was nothing to kill five or six of them. So one day, I was standing there and a rattlesnake struck at me. And my dog jumped between me and the rattlesnake. I had knee pants on and he jumped between me and the rattlesnake and the rattlesnake hit him right on the lip. One place, you could just [barely] see it. You know how they work; they got a sharp prong that they dive right into you and they squirt this poison into that, following in with that prong. What gets me is I never could understand how the damn snake can carry poison in his own head and not poison himself. Can you? Interviewer: I don‟t know, must have a sac that it is stored in. Herbert: Herbert: Must be something that prevents it from going to any dangerous part, but they have it in their head. My dog died that night, the next day we killed ten rattlesnakes. You can tell about the conditions of the country at that time. Lots of Blue Racers, and lots of Garter snakes. By the time I was going to St. Alphonsus. I am the oldest member of St. Andrews Church, and the oldest member of St. Alphonsus and the oldest member of St Thomas Church living today. One day I went to school and I took a Garter snake in my pocket and let him out in school, the sister grabbed up the Garter snake, she knew how to handle it, threw him out of doors and she said, “What will you think of next, anyway, what will you do anyhow?” She started to laugh, “The idea of bringing that snake, now what did you expect to accomplish by that? I said, “He got away from me.”No, you put him on the floor…” �11 You want anything out of town? Interviewer: Pardon, no, I kind of like to stay centering around Grand Rapids, if we can. Herbert: Around Grand Rapids? Do you want me to tell you about the stage coach robbery? Interviewer: Was that here in Grand Rapids? Herbert: No, it was in Yellowstone Park. Interviewer: Who robbed the stage? Herbert: Two soldiers. Interviewer: Huh! Herbert: Two American soldiers, quite interesting? Interviewer: Yeah? Tell me the story. (both laughing) Herbert: Well see, we travelled there. About a dozen coaches, one after the other, one following every so often then we would get to some place where there was something to see, why we would stay two hours for dinner. We would have our dinner and then we would go out and see the different springs, you know, Old Faithful and all of them. Well we were coming down, we came down a long stretch and we were seventh in a row, and we were held up. They came down this way and then they turned this way - north. Well some of them had been robbed before, and we were the next one up, we were here, and the others went. The first ones got down to the soldier‟s camp and they brought five soldiers back with them, armed and these fellows saw them coming and they dove into the Yellowstone River and started to swim across. And these five soldiers come up and got down on their knees and took aim them and shot all around them but didn‟t hit anybody. Those guys had waterproofed guns and when they got to the other side they begin to shoot back. We had to get out of the coaches and climb under the coaches to, for protection. Well, after we were all through with that, we started north, and made that turn north. When we got up a ways, there was a place where you could buy bread. And when you go on farther and there was a place where the black bears would come down. And they‟d come up to the stagecoach, and you‟d break off bread and feed it to them, see. Well, we got up that far when I was driving the horses; I was driving the horses for them then. A fellow taught me on the way up. I was driving the horses, we got up and here was a black bear and three little cubs ahead of them, two black bears and had three little cubs. A man ran out there and grabbed a hold of one of these cubs. The driver said give me those lines Hefferan, and get a club and another man and drive that bear off or he will kill that man just as sure as the world. I run down and got a fellow and got two clubs and by hollering see, scared him more than anything else. Anyhow before we could get to him, this bear got to him, he was holding the cub, his face was all exposed like that and she took the whole side of his face off. We were yelling and waving the clubs, we scared her �12 off. We picked him up and carried him back. I got him, I held him in the stagecoach, bleeding terribly and we went up to the hotel and brought him into the doctor and that‟s the last I ever seen him. Left at eight o‟clock in the morning, I don‟t ever know how he ever came out. Interviewer: Hmm. When was that, when did you make that trip out there? Herbert: I don‟t know. I have pictures of all of it. Another thing I went to see, I was down in El Paso. Have you been there? Interviewer: No. Herbert: The Rio Grande River runs around El Paso and the south side is Juarez, and the north side where El Paso is all up high on banks and their down below. Well, I had a friend that lived down there and wanted me to call on her when I came down. Well, I was on my way to California. I went and stayed at their place and then her husband sold goods to the… what is the fellow say of fighting the great war? Interviewer: Pancho Villa? Herbert: Yeah, Pancho Villa. They expected that night that he would cross over the river, well, he had to fight and he drove the Mexican government soldiers across the river. And the Americans put up a place a mile square, in two days, had cottages and everything for the soldiers that were driven across from the other side. It was given out that they were going to come across and attack the soldiers in this place where they built for them; the Americans had built for them. My friend said to me now, you are staying at the hote, said you have been staying in your hotel at night and up here during the day, but now you must come up here and stay at night also. We got to have all the men we can get because they are coming across to attack, and it will be a day and a half yet before the American soldiers can get in from their encampment. I said, alright, so I went up in the middle of the night, and I heard a commotion outside. They‟d asked me if I could use a gun, I said sure I can use a gun. There was a commotion outside so I got up and dressed the rest of the way, I wasn‟t all undressed. Then I went outside and there was soldier, a sergeant and five men and he had a Gatling gun, that‟s what they used to use years ago, you know? Interviewer: Yes, Herbert: In place of a cannon. I asked him, how about it, I‟ve got a gun inside but I don‟t know if you can use me or not? The man said no, we won‟t need you. I have five men here now, and every block down on the street I have a Gatling gun. We‟re up high and they„re down below, if they start anything we have it checked out like a checker board. Mine is number five all I got to do is fire in number five and in five minutes we will have Juarez wiped off the map. But they didn‟t, nothing happened. So the next day, nobody was allowed to go over to Juarez on account of, when you went over there they, if you were a stranger they grabbed you and took your clothes �13 all off, leave your underwear on and rob you of the money you had. So Mr. Heath, that was the man I was staying with at his house, he sold for a wholesale grocery. He had a big order from him, they had to get it [and] so he wanted to know if I wanted to go across with him. I said “Sure I‟ll go with you.” And he said, “I‟ll take care of you, alright.” We got going over there and going along on the street and they would stop us, he would say something in Spanish and they would leave us alone right away. We went up to this house, and Villa had his headquarters in the opera house and nobody that I knew of had seen Villa, everybody wanted to see Villa. He went into the courthouse, but I couldn‟t go in there with him, I had to stay outside. There were two Mexicans guarding, you know Mexicans are short, like Japanese but heavier; all their clothes didn‟t fit them in those days. There were two fellows with general‟s suits on and hats. Their suits didn‟t fit them, twice to big for them. And they had gone there and so, when he went in they began to talk to me, trying to ask me something. But I couldn‟t answer them because I didn‟t know what they said. They were so disgusted. And then Villa drove up, and I was as close to Villa as you are [to me]. Interviewer: Hmmm? Herbert: Everybody wanted to see Villa, and I was there looking right at him, waiting for him to come out. When he came out I told him those two guys there with the general suits on asking me, were trying to get something out of me and I don‟t know what they wanted. He said something in Spanish to them and he said they wanted a cigarette. So I gave them each a pack of cigarettes, I was smoking then. I don‟t smoke now. They bowed and bowed. And then when I left, he didn‟t attack, you know; he didn‟t attack across there. When I left he attacked a town just a mile and half below there and he killed a lot of Americans on the train. When I went on the train ahead of it, I took the train ahead of it and was alright and came back home. Interviewer: Yeah….. INDEX A H Albert, Uncle · 3 B Beaton Family · 3 D Decator, Bill · 7 Dillinger, John · 8, 9 Doty Family · 5, 6 Herpolsheimer, Grandpa · 9 Heyman Furniture Company · 2 Heyman, Mr. · 2, 7 M Mattie, Aunt · 3 Michigan Trust Company · 6 �14 P Pantlind Hotel · 1 R Rankins, Mr. · 7 Raven, A. Amos · 7 St. Alphonsus Church · 11 Steketee, Grandpa · 9 Stonehouse, Mr. and Mrs. · 2 T Thrall, Mrs. · 3 V S Smith, Joe · 2 Villa, Pancho · 12, 13 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5b1dc91a9515f4be79c621c16e3376b.mp3 6d4ba3b295654fa4e89cf173b95042a8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_37Hefferan Title A name given to the resource Hefferan, Herbert Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hefferan, Herbert Description An account of the resource Herbert Hefferan was born on January 16, 1875 in Grand Rapids. He knew Grandpa Stekete and the Herpolsheimers. He worked at Smith & Sanford. He traveled to California and had experiences involving Pancho Villa and John Dillinger's gang. He died in 1972. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ab6f4dc7a6e9b5280aaab02e5f8bf30c.mp4 93ec9b0a7fea3af7a028db9feafe1254 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f15c28e14ac1fc8733d7d80f73f8497a.pdf 98c2c912f3282b8b7212fb4bb3ecb43a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Timothy Heffron (00:28:09) (00:06) Background Information • Timothy was born in Kirkwood, Missouri on November 13, 1957 • He was raised in Pennsylvania • Went to live with his father in Grand Rapids, MI • Timothy went to Forest Hills High School • When he finished high school he joined the Marines (03:49) Training • After boot camp Timothy was a Private First Class • He joined their wrestling team because he was a wrestler in high school • Timothy graduated 3rd in his class in communications school • A major said that he would catch him with a bad drug test so he went home without permission for 38 days and got a lawyer • When he went back he was court martialed and received a 50 dollar fine and a demotion to private • They asked him if he wanted to take an honorable discharge and he agreed (10:45) After Discharge • Timothy had 2 heart attacks and on February 24, 2004 he went to live at the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans • Right after his discharge he became a chef and travelled to different cities • He got a license to be a certified industrial cook • Timothy got married right after the Marines and divorced a few years later • He then worked for a circus • His father got sick and he had to take care of him for a couple years �• Timothy bought some taxis and ran a taxi business until he sold it in 1996 • He says that boot camp made him a stronger person • Timothy thinks they are working the troops too much and wearing them out in Iraq � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Heffron, Timothy (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Heffron, Timothy Description An account of the resource Timothy Heffron was born in Kirkwood, Missouri on November 13, 1957. He was raised in Pennsylvania and then moved to Grand Rapids with his father during high school. After high school he joined the Marines. He went to boot camp and then finished 3rd in his communications school class. He didn't get along with a major and ended up leaving without permission and was court martialed when he returned. He received a 50 dollar fine and was moved from private first class to private. Then they offered him an honorable discharge and he took it. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Marine Corps Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-01-29 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HeffronT Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a8b8ad7bffecd1966e1a8d804462ac83.mp4 ca206f71aef7ffbc6c7e28085de1a4e5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/03ae64d32e0b007d498e3f3b83d01123.pdf b80a36d82f3776e145a0e4e6bc5dc98e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project John Heflin (01:00:07) (00:01) Background Information • • • • • • • John was born in Bellevue, MI He graduated high school and received his draft notice shortly afterwards Instead of being drafted he enlisted in the Air Force John trained to be a mechanic for 3 months He was then sent to Columbus, OH for 2.5 years In Columbus he worked on C-130s John was married in September 1967 and received his orders for deployment 10 days after (02:26) Deployment • • • • • • • In January 1968 he flew out to a small island in the Philippines called Mack 10 On the way they stopped in Alaska and Japan When he got to Clark Air Force Base on Mack 10 he heard about the Tet Offensive Tan Son Nhut Airbase, Vietnam was being overrun by the Viet Cong, so he had to stay in the Philippines John was the crew chief of the mechanics The planes had a crew of 5 operators Every three months they would rotate people from the Philippines to Vietnam (06:10) Vietnam • • • • • • • • • • The Tet Offensive was over in April 1968 Most people were afraid to go to war when they were drafted John didn’t know anyone who enlisted by choice He had pretty good pay when he got to Vietnam because he received overseas, hazard, combat and flight pay Most of the US troops came to Tan Son Nhut Airbase At about 1am every morning they would get mortar fire on the base from the Viet Cong John worked from 6pm to 6am He had to make sure the planes were always ready to go The Viet Cong knew where mortar and rocket targets on the base were because the Vietnamese worked on the base during the day On one occasion he had to go to Dong Ha by the DMZ to fix a tire �(25:45) How the Soldiers Felt About the War There was a lot of tension People would say that the US was not trying to win the war They asked why we didn’t just bomb Hanoi Some thought that the US was just trying to get young people killed to quiet the civil rights movement • A lot of guys went AWOL and stayed over there • The general feeling was “we got to get out of this place” • • • • (27:38) Discharge On February 26, 1969 John received orders to leave Vietnam He had just made sergeant Most people wanted out and didn’t even think about re-enlisting John was discharged as soon as he got back to the US There was a lot of drug use in Vietnam While he was in Vietnam John had heard about people shooting their commanding officers during battle because of racism, they called it fragging • The Military was segregated • • • • • • (36:47) After Being Discharged • • • • • • • • • • John went to get his wife from Ohio and they went to Detroit He went back to his old job at the hospital and worked nights at the Chevrolet plant When Martin Luther King was killed there were riots in Vietnam He joined the Black Panther Party in Detroit There were white sympathizers that helped the BPP The FBI broke them up Heroin had hit the Detroit community hard John was proud to have served in the Air Force He had a family member that was incarcerated in a prison in Muskegon, MI so he would go there to visit and really liked the area John and his wife moved there recently � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Heflin, John (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Heflin, John Description An account of the resource John Heflin was born in Bellevue, Michigan and after high school enlisted in the Air Force. He was assigned to be a mechanic and trained in Columbus, Ohio. John was deployed in January 1968 to the Philippines during the Tet Offensive. After the Tet Offensive he was stationed at Tan Son Nhut Airbase, Vietnam. It was his job as crew chief to make sure that the planes were ready to go at all times. He discusses soldiers' attitudes toward the war, racial tensions and drug use. After leaving Vietnam in 1969, he worked in Detroit and joined the Black Panther Party. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Montagna, Douglas (Interviewer) Great Lakes Naval Memorial & Museum (Muskegon, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans African-American soldiers United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-02-16 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HeflinJ Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc05f2909c3f3b6faa036c457441be2b.mp4 386cf3bc8ecb3a80b74ab42c6f7df5a0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78d560eddfc63223d0b38808b92e349a.pdf 824e278aceb5113f6eee2ee65eecf29c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korea Interviewee: Lloyd Heibel Length of Interview: 00:34:44 (00:18) Family Information and Enlistment  Lloyd was born August 19, 1931. He served in the U.S. Navy during the Korean War and his highest rank was gunners mate 2nd class (00:20).  He was born in Dorr, Michigan (00:56)  Lloyd and his brother joined the service together (01:07).  Lloyd enlisted into the service because he did not like school. He was expelled when he was 15. He wanted to join the Navy, but was too young. He convinced his reluctant father to sign for him. He signed when he was 16 and they took him 1 month after his 17th birthday (01:18).  He and his brother were shipped out to the Great Lakes Naval Training Station. They travelled by bus (02:40). (02:56) Active Duty Overview  After completing boot camp, his brother signed up for Class training in engineering. He would end up working on a ship as an engine technician (03:03).  Lloyd was supposed to attend storekeeper’s school in Bayonne, New Jersey and San Diego, California, but they were both full (03:23).  They decided to send him to the [aircraft carrier] USS Midway. Within a few weeks they were headed out to the Mediterranean Sea (03:48).  He accumulated 2 years of leave in 2 years, because they were consistently underway (04:10).  He requested a transfer the ship his brother was stationed on, the Shenandoah, because they were always and dock. The transfer was approved. (04:26)  As soon as he got aboard, they left for the Mediterranean (04:41).  He participated in 4 six months cruises, which took him as far as Panama and also along eastern seaboard of the U.S. (04:50).  They would also take congressmen out on a weekend getaway (05:20).  Most of his sea time was accumulated on the Midway. It was a very good experience (05:28).  One time, while still on the Midway, the commanders were thinking about going through the Red Sea to attack Korea, but the plan was nixed fairly quickly (05:36).  When they came back to Norfolk, Virginia for an overhaul of the ship that is when he transferred to his brother’s ship (05:55).  The Midway would continue on around the southern tip of South America to serve in the Pacific. There would be many accomplishments that those on the Midway would be remembered for (06:15).  He spent 4 years total in the Navy and believed that it was a good learning experience for him (06:58). � He would finish high school while in the Navy. He would complete two and a half years of high school work in two days, getting the GED equivalent of a high school diploma (07:06). (07:48) Life and Duty on the Midway  On the Midway Lloyd worked in the deck crew. His job was to maintain the sailing part of the ship (07:51).  He stood wheel watch on the main deck and had the opportunity to steer the ship. Although they made a big deal of it, he said there was nothing special about it. In fact, the job changes hands every four hours (08:05).  When the ship needed to be fueled, then someone with more experience would come in and control the ship (08:28).  He would end up doing many different types of jobs while he served on the Midway. It was mostly whatever they needed him for. He explained that when they would dock, he would sometimes work on the anchor detail. He describes what happens when the anchor is let down. He would take a sledgehammer to a pelican hook and jump out of the way. If you slipped, you were dead (09:05).  Ran motor launches during liberty (10:58).  Another job he did was to work with the guns on the ship, either loading or firing (11:20).  He would help maintain the ship. Since it was made of iron, it would rust very easily in salt water, so it had to be maintained very vigorously (11:30).  He would also play games sometimes, saying that there were basketball courts and exercise rooms. There was also a big band aboard the ship to entertain them as well as a few movies (11:49).  Living on the ship was the best of life to him. You always had a clean bed, hot food, dentists, barbers, and their laundry would always be done (12:10).  After his four years were up, they tried to get him to reenlist, offering him $1200 and 42 months gunnery school in Washington D.C. where he would have achieved chief gunnery’s mate (12:35).  However, he would decide that was enough (13:30).  He has with him some documents from when he was on the ship. Since Midway was like a floating city, they had everything. One of the things he shows is a Newsletter that the soldiers would get to keep them informed on what was happening (13:36).  He would also send stuff to his parent to keep them informed of what was happening as well. They had kept all the documents, which is how he has them today (14:11).  He describes a time when they were running a fueling operation and one of the fuel lines burst, a guy was thrown off the ship and into the ocean. A helicopter would save him. He also said the guy was not wearing a life jacket, which was a sin aboard the ship, especially during fueling operations. This particular event was illustrated in a comic book (14:47).  He also has some other items collected over the years from when he would dock and explore the place they landed (15:38).  Most of the places he visited were still damaged from WWII. In fact, the soldiers were given cash, which they were expected to spend to help the towns they stopped in. Essentially, an economic recovery program in postwar era (16:26). � He has a book that shows, with much pictorial representation, the last cruise that he went on before transferring off the Midway. Pictures of events the crew participated in and pictures of the personnel on board. Timeline of activity (17:30).  While he was anchored in Italy, he experienced an earthquake (18:45). (20:30) The Shenandoah  When he first entered the Navy, it was not possible for brothers to be aboard the same ship. He said that in WWII, five brothers were aboard a ship and all of them were lost. In the 1950’s things changed and brothers could be on the same ship if requested (20:40).  While he was on the Shenandoah, he serves as a gunner’s mate (21:28).  Lloyd was in charge of five 20mm batteries. He would also work on a 5-inch forward gun and he was attached to the armory, which had the small arms. Small arms were utilized by landing parties (21:36).  Armory issued weapon to men and held them until needed. Explanation of Armory (22:40).  He would also train on a radio-controlled aircraft (23:30).  Description of drones (24:20).  He would spend a lot of his time training with the different types of guns on the ship. One time while they were training and live round got jammed into a hot gun barrel. It was very dangerous, but with some caution they were able to get things right again (23:50). (28:50) Life after the Navy  After he got out of the Navy, he said that life was good. It was a civilian at age 21 (28:58).  He had to apply for the draft, where he got a classification of 5A. (29:10). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Heibel, Lloyd (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Heibel, Lloyd Description An account of the resource Lloyd Heibel enlisted in the Navy in 1948 at the age of 17. He trained as a gunner and served on the USS Midway and USS Shenandoah, operating in the Atlantic and Mediterranean at the time of the Korean War. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Poff, Chris (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-02 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HeibelL Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05c41a13688eb876f21ce551622cdf1b.mp4 0db98a40995e0ecbf78e7bf1db5699c3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2912642af7da1d4cb9f4de9fd54d3de.pdf 48b36e1da3043621fc7ed9bbdc587132 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Edwin Heiden (2015) 105 Minutes (00:00:20) Pre-Enlistment       Born in Benton Harbor, Michigan in March 1947 Raised in St. Joseph, Michigan Mother was a homemaker, father worked for Whirlpool corporation as a tool and die maker Graduated High School in 1965, went to work for Whirlpool on the assembly line Debated college, wasn’t a priority, wanted to see the world Had a friend who enlisted in the Marine Corp, eventually convinced him to join the Marines (00:04:45) Training              Signed up with a Marine recruiter in February, went to Detroit for a physical exam Eventually bussed to Chicago and then flown to San Diego and transported to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot, showed up around midnight Edwin’s friend had warned him somewhat about the drill instructors, advised him to just to what he was told First few days were mostly shock and awe for the recruits, drill sergeants establishing control, breaking down the recruits Training was intense, recruits ran pretty much everywhere, lasted 8-10 weeks All gear was Marine Corps issued, Edwin was issued a standard M14 rifle Training was the process of breaking down civilians into marines Recruits did Physical Training every day, Edwin was in fairly good shape, some tasks still proved difficult for him Classroom work entailed Marine Corps History, weapon functions and maintenance Almost all of Edwin’s instructors had experience in Vietnam, focused a lot on team tactics and working together, didn’t mention Vietnam all that much Mistakes were paid for with more PT or verbal abuse, doing it until they got it right Two individuals from Edwin’s platoon were moved to Correctional Custody, where they were treated more harshly, made to carry sledgehammers as rifles and a steel pot for a helmet Adjusting to the Marine life wasn’t too hard for Edwin, he played sports in high school and was used to firm discipline for his father (00:21:20) Advanced Training �        After graduation, Edwin is transferred to Camp Pendleton, California to the Infantry Training Regiment, short 2-3 week infantry training course Trained on different weapons, M60, Rocket Launchers, combat tactics Trained to be a mechanic at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, 4-5 week course consisting of operating, maintaining, and repairing vehicles, much more relaxed than earlier training, all classroom and hands on learning Transferred further east in North Carolina to the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing as a truck mechanic and jeep driver, shuttled pilots and luggage from planes to quarters Wasn’t sure if he was actually going to Vietnam at this point, thought he would be here for a while, had been here for about a year and was getting impatient, Eventually volunteered to go as reinforcement Spent quite a bit of time in the town off base and on the beach Marines were treated pretty well by the locals as long as they behaved In the military, racial divides were minimal, taught in boot camp that “We are all green” (00:32:30) Deployment            Received a twenty day leave before deployment, visited his family Anti-war and Anti-soldier sentiments weren’t really on his radar, people kept their distance while he was in uniform, no open hostility though Sent back to Camp Pendleton for Staging Battalion training, three weeks which consisted of combat simulations in a simulated enemy village, taught to look out for booby traps Taught Edwin about Escape and Evasion, escaping the enemy if caught and avoiding capture while surviving in the jungle Flew to Hawai’i from Travis Air Force Base on a civilian jet, and then to Da Nang Landed in Da Nang at night, rainy and muggy conditions Assigned to 3rd Motor Transport Battalion after a day or two Took a Marine Logistics flight to Phu Bai, driven from there to his new unit Assigned to Charlie Company, home of the “Rough Riders” Initially just performs miscellaneous repair work, soon offers himself as a truck driver, Assigned to a convoy going to Da Nang, does this for the first few months, driving all over Vietnam o Before the Tet Offensive, this duty was fairly quiet, many of Edwin’s comrades were wondering where the enemy was Was transferred to the 3rd Medical Battalion in the middle of January, was transporting injured children in Hue City a few days before it was attacked, closest Edwin came to real danger before the Tet Offensive (00:49:50) Tet Offensive  There was a South Vietnamese Army boot camp just outside of Phu Bai, recruits started leaving to go celebrate the Lunar New Year, found out later the Viet Cong were replacing them �       Took wounded marines off of helicopters from Hue City into the triage, civilians trying to get out caused minor traffic jam Base was shelled periodically before this, but the wounds and casualties coming in from Hue City really drove home that this was war Troops and tanks had to be transported by river because the Viet Cong had blown up bridges and mined the roads Edwin helped with the wounded and identified bodies up through March, the commander of his division, the 3rd Marine, was killed over Hue City o The flow of injured was so great that marines were being treated in the parking lot of the triage o Edwin turned 21 during this time The Tet Offensive changed the whole atmosphere of operations, soldiers were wary of trusting any Vietnamese after Hue City The South Vietnamese had their own hospital, but it lacked many of the facilities of the US military’s, so Edwin treated many Vietnamese casualties as well Edwin traveled through Hue City in April while moving the 3rd Marine Division, he was awed at all the destruction, Citadel was destroyed, Windows and doors of the University were blown out (00:57:39) After the Tet Offensive             3rd Marine Division is moved North to Quang Tri, life here is much different, Troops were living in tents Vietnamese women were paid to help fill sand bags, sand bags were faulty and would often leak or burst Diet was rationed and worked from sunup to sundown Bunkers could not be dug without hitting water, so they had to be built above ground Troops surrounded each tent with blast walls, set up a maze to offer protection from rocket attacks, which happened 2-3 times Eventually got a hospital up and running, nearby bases handled casualties while the 3rd Marine built their base, used inflatable structures called MUST units as surgical tents Supply building and hospital were finished by the time Edwin left A CH-46 helicopter landed at Edwin’s base after being shot up pretty badly, Chunks of the propeller blades were missing, the helicopter could no longer fly and yet the pilot landed it safely Witnessed an incoming AC-130 crash on the runway and erupt in a ball of flame Edwin Developed plantar warts due to the wet and dirty conditions in Quang Tri, sent to Da Nang to have them removed, stayed at China Beach for an extra day for small R&R Took a five day R&R in Japan, was going to go to Tokyo but protests over the war forced him to back out, stayed with a small group of soldiers in a mountain lake resort near Mt. Fuji, took the train to Yokosuka, canceled a trip to Mt. Fuji due to weather and tried sake instead 3rd Medical Battalion had pretty good morale, Edwin was overall very impressed and very happy with the officers and surgeons �    Once brought in a soldier whose arms and legs had been blown off by a dropped grenade, could only be picked up by his flak jacket, the blast had been so intense that it cauterized his arteries and the surgeon stopped the rest of the bleeding, the soldier was conscious for the entire surgery, actually talked to the surgeon Drug use wasn’t prevalent around Edwin, soldiers stayed too busy, got two beers a day, spent most of their free time writing letters Edwin dealt mostly with Vietnamese women, enjoyed working with them, communicated fairly well, he was struck by how poor they were and the awful conditions they lived in Five people from Edwin’s high school enlisted and went to training at different times, ended up serving in Vietnam at the same time, they set up a location network through their parents and Edwin got to visit all of them at some point, all of them survived and made it back (01:20:48) Getting Out      Edwin thought about extending his tour as a sergeant, but his experiences in the medical battalion helped him decide he was ready to go home Flew from Da Nang to Okinawa and got caught up on his shots and got a physical, stayed a few days and then flew to San Francisco, from there to Chicago and then to Michigan Still had five months left in his enlistment, assigned to 5th Marine Division in CA, taught marines how drive trucks properly, ended up being let out 30 days early Returned to work for Whirlpool for a short time and signed up for the GI Bill, then enrolled in Lake Michigan College, attended for two years majoring in political science, then went with a friend to Western Michigan University for two years, graduated in 1972 Looked for a job for a while, did some odd jobs, went back to Whirlpool, got married in this time (01:28:48) Serving as an Officer        Eventually signed up for Officer Candidate School in 1973, moved to Quantico, Virginia Was like Marine boot camp but much tougher and at a higher level, stressed the heightened responsibility of an officer Also went to Basic School, more about combat tactics, leadership, weaponry Trained with many prior enlisted men, this training was very valuable to Edwin in OCS, Hardest mental and physical work for Edwin Graduates after about six months, assigned as an Infantry Platoon Commander, sent to Camp Lejeune and assigned to 3rd Battalion 2nd Marines Rifle Platoon, mostly administrative work, four of his men were in the brig and two were missing Edwin was also in charge of a motor pool, had his hands full Led his troop in desert warfare training for a month, practiced simulated combat scenarios �     Edwin’s unit was part of special mission force as defense line security for the naval base at Guantanamo Bay, troops would do PT and watch ships come and go from the harbor, this was a six-month tour of duty, Edwin was a First Lieutenant Once received a call about a fence jumper who was stuck, he responded and pulled him down to the US side of the fence, it turned out the man was probably escaping a prison in Cuba, and Cuban officials were claiming that Edwin had kidnapped one of their civilians Edwin was transferred to the 3rd Marines in Camp Lejeune, oversaw the motor pool there The war was over and Edwin figured his service was done so he left when the opportunity arose, worked for Coca-Cola in North Carolina for a time before eventually moving back to St. Joseph, Michigan The Marine Corps changed Edwin’s life, taught him discipline, attention to detail, the brevity of life, and gave his life direction when he really had none � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HeidenE1017V Title A name given to the resource Heiden, Edwin Franklyn Jr (Interview outline and video), 2015 Description An account of the resource Edwin Heiden was born and raised in St. Joseph, MI in March 1947. He graduated high school in 1965 and joined the Marine Corps shortly thereafter. Edwin adapted to Marine life well and became a mechanic. He was deployed to Vietnam as reinforcement for the 3rd Motor Transport Battalion in Phu Bai, operating mostly as a truck driver. He was soon transferred to the 3rd Medical Battalion, where he served during the Tet Offensive, helping transport and care for the wounded coming from Hue City. His unit then moved north to Quang Tri where he helped construct a new base. Edwin then returned home to finish his enlistment by teaching marines to drive trucks in California. He then left the military for a short time to attend college and get married, before returning to the service through Officer Candidate School. Edwin became an Infantry Platoon Commander and led a unit operating at Guantanamo Bay. Edwin left the service again soon after this and moved back home to Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Heiden, Edwin Franklyn Jr. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-12-08 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5b32a58c96dc9c518120b9a845f45d2.mp4 7f2759924d4de1d34ea93f94c9193e1d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca08648a825f2583d3a8d1773f641352.pdf afc98cf70f604179f924b9a3514d4b10 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Kevin Heine Disc One (01:01:07) (00:33) Background Information • Kevin was born in Flint, Michigan on October 1, 1964 • In 1952 [1852?] Jacob Heine migrated from Germany to the US • He had a long family military history that dates back the Civil War • There were six children in his family, five of which joined the service • Kevin played baseball, football, and ran in track while in school • He graduated from Osceota high school in 1982 • About 25% of his graduating class entered into the service; it was an Air Force town and the economy was also bad, so there were no jobs (18:15) The Navy • Kevin went to basic training at Great Lakes Naval Base in Chicago for 9 weeks • After basic training he had basic engineering school in Chicago • The first two weeks of basic training were pretty rough • Kevin had enlisted in the Navy in 1982 and had not graduated yet • He remained in the reserve while finishing high school • When he was only 16 years old he knew that he wanted to be in the service (28:20) Basic Engineering • Kevin was training to be a Machinery Maintenance and Repair Technician • He trained for 13 weeks and then was allowed to go out to sea • He washed out of nuclear power school, but would have done better if he was older and more mature • Kevin was assigned to a ship outside of Georgia where he was working in a crane shop with missiles • He was also working on small arms in the weapons department (33:45) USS Julius A. Fuehrer • The ship was based out of South Carolina; it was a small frigate • Kevin was working in the engine room as a crewmember with a forward five inch gun mount while in the Persian Gulf • He later qualified as a service warfare specialist (43:10) Re-Enlistment 1988 • Kevin re-enlisted because they had offered him a very large bonus; he was married and had young children at the time • He was also provided with a college education • Kevin began working in cryogenics systems engineering; the classes were very hard • He dealt with distillation, storage, and distribution of liquefied gasses �• • The classes were demanding and he was dealing with planes hands on The classes were in Norfolk, Virginia for two years (54:50) Key West • Kevin was assigned shore duty in Florida because his superiors felt that he needed a break • He was working in the Naval air station with two others and one chief • They would go to work at 8 am and then for lunch at noon • After lunch they would mess around or play basketball; only one person would have to go back to the shop to work until 4 • Kevin was taking computer technician classes at a community college in Florida • He received his associates degree in 1994 and also re-enlisted that year Disc Two (01:04:27) (00:15) Millennium Deployment • Kevin was on the only carrier battle group that was deployed during the millennium shift • The skipper was often out of hand and drank a lot • Many in the electrical division got punishment for screwing up or sleeping on duty (06:05) Ship Duties • Kevin was temporarily assigned to the safety office as a representative from engineering • He was doing Naval occupational safety and health work • Working with noise surveys, emergency asbestos removal, and other “boring administrative crap.” • They were at sea for New Year’s Eve and had their own on board fireworks display • They were in Dubai for the Super bowl, drinking lots of beer (13:20) Naval and Marine Corps Center, Indiana • Kevin was transferred to Indiana; it would be his last assignment before retirement • He had been discharged in June, 2002 but was still on the recall list until 2012 • He had to be ready to deploy if needed on 96 hour notice (15:30) Davenport University • Kevin began taking more classes in Indiana for business administration and computer science • He graduated with a double major in 2005 • There were many other vets in the program he took part in • He was going through a divorce while taking his classes • Kevin had been a staff duty officer during the attacks of 9/11 • Everyone at the Navy base was sent home because they felt that would be more �safe than the base (26:15) Reserve Called • Kevin had to contact many men from the reserve to make sure he had their correct contact information if they had to be called to service after 9/11 • Many men were called back to active duty to serve in Iraq • Kevin had to spend about 12 hours calling people in the reserve during 9/11 • By the end of the day he had been able to contact 90% of the people on his list (35:00) Finished with College • Kevin had bad times with the economy in Michigan and Indiana in 2005 • He became more politically active • Kevin joined a citizens’ rights group and fought for sustainable energy • He also tried to help pass the Michigan Fair Tax, but had not got enough signatures to get the proposal on the 2008 ballot � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Heine, Kevin (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Heine, Kevin Description An account of the resource Kevin Heine was born in Flint, Michigan on October 1, 1964. About 25% of his graduating class joined some form of the service in Osceota because it was an Air Force town and the economy was terrible in Michigan during the 80s. Kevin joined the Navy after high school and was able to take many classes in many areas during his 20 year career. Kevin took engineering classes, cryogenics, business administration, computer science, and many others. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-08-17 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HeineK Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/579646f414faeb7faee73262740e5f01.mp4 f6e5013fa5964cdacbc31943a1dfccc0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec311636b6bf43fb987b769506b8d098.pdf 83408bb4514af8526976dc3d30caf201 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project The Iraq War Bob Heine Interview Length: (01:49:35:00) Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:17:00)  Heine was born in 1947 in Bronx, New York (00:00:17:00) o However, Heine mostly grew up on Long Island, New York before moving to Auburn, Alabama to attend Auburn University (00:00:24:00) o While Heine was growing up, his father worked as a construction superintendent for a good-sized construction firm; in 1964, the year Heine graduated from high school, his father joined the New York City school system as the superintendent for buildings and grounds (00:00:34:00)  After graduating from high school, Heine did not like what he saw in the beginnings of the “hippie” culture in and around New York and the Northeast and was simultaneously looking to get into a good engineering program, so he elected to attend Auburn University in Alabama (00:00:57:00) o Once Heine arrived in Alabama, he picked up a southern accent very quickly to blend in with the others (00:01:25:00) o The biggest shock for Heine when he arrived at the university was the blatant racism (00:01:31:00)  During Heine’s first day on campus, he was walking outside the dorms where he was staying and an elderly black man was walking in the opposite direction (00:01:36:00)  As Heine and the black man approached each other, the black man walked off the path and onto the grass while looking down at the ground (00:01:51:00)  That seemed odd to Heine and when the two had passed each other, Heine turned around and saw that the man had walked back onto the path (00:02:01:00)  When Heine later mentioned this situation to other people on campus, they were surprised that he would not expect that kind of behavior; a black person was not supposed to walk on the same sidewalk as he was walking on (00:02:12:00)  When Heine first arrived, the university did not have any black students; in fact, the university ended up getting its first black student while Heine was attending (00:02:31:00) o In the time Heine was at the university, there was very little in the way of anti-war protests, unlike schools in the north-east and western parts of the nation, where such protests were commonplace (00:02:53:00)  In fact, the university maintained a mandatory two-year ROTC program for its students (00:03:06:00)  Many of the students in the ROTC program wore their uniforms for the entire day on the days they had to do drills (00:03:13:00) �   Although the first two years of the ROTC program were mandatory, Heine elected to continue on and join the advanced ROTC program (00:03:26:00) o Heine figured he would go to Vietnam one way or another and he wanted to go as an officer, so going through the ROTC program seemed like a logical choice (00:03:36:00) o Heine ended up being the cadet brigade commander, the top cadet in the program (00:03:47:00) o When he completed the program, Heine received his commission but also received a deferment, allowing him to attend graduate school (00:03:57:00)  The first two years of the program consisted of very basic introductions to life in the Army, as well as a “lab” twice a week that consisted of drill and ceremonies (00:04:19:00)  During the last two years, Heine and the other cadets took a series of courses to learn more about the Army in-depth, all in preparation for becoming an officer (00:04:38:00) o During the drill and ceremonies portion, the older cadets took on leadership roles, where they would train and direct the younger cadets (00:04:48:00)  As well, there was a six-week summer camp where the cadets would have more in-depth training, including training with various weapons and learning infantry maneuvers (00:05:04:00) o The summer camp took place at Fort Bragg, North Carolina (00:05:20:00) o Apart from Heine’s group, there were ROTC cadets from programs all across the country (00:05:33:00) While at Auburn, Heine fully expected that once he graduated from the university, he would be going to Vietnam (00:05:50:00) o From his junior year in high school, Heine had friends who had been called up to serve in Vietnam, a couple of whom were killed in action (00:05:58:00)  As a result of this, Heine followed what happened with Vietnam very closely (00:06:13:00) After completing his undergraduate degree, Heine stayed at Auburn to earn his Master’s degree, after which, he received orders for two years of active-duty service (00:06:20:00) o However, before Heine reported in to begin his two years of active-duty, he received a letter saying that he would instead be going through a basic officer course before going to reserve-duty (00:06:34:00)  The Army had built their officer training programs too high in Vietnam and they suddenly had too many officers coming in (00:06:54:00)  Out of the thirty-nine officers in Heine’s basic officer class, only two stayed on for two years of active-duty (00:07:05:00)  Conversely, the country was going through a recession at the time and some of the officers wanted to stay behind; those who did stay had to sign on for “voluntary indefinite”, which meant at least a three-year �  commitment, although the officers had to stay until the Army was ready to release them (00:07:18:00) Heine received his officer commission in December 1968, earned his Master’s degree in August 1970, and reported for his initial officer training in March 1971 (00:07:38:00) o In the time between his graduation in 1970 and beginning the officer training in 1971, Heine moved to Cincinnati, Ohio to work as a process engineer for Proctor and Gamble (00:07:55:00) Heine was commissioned in the Army Chemical Corps, so he went to Fort McClellan, Alabama for his basic officer course; the fort ended up being only one hundred miles from Auburn (00:08:04:00) o The course was meant to train Heine and the other officers in everything they needed to do to be a platoon leader in the Army (00:08:32:00) o Each basic officer course was focused on what branch of the Army the officers were going into, be it the chemical corps, the infantry, etc. (00:08:54:00) o At the time, the Army Chemical Corps was responsible for chemical, biological, and radiological defense; the United States has a national policy that does not allow the Army to use those types of weapons offensively (00:09:08:00)  However, the soldiers still needed to be protected against those types of weapons (00:09:21:00)  For example, soldiers in the chemical corps might work in an infantry unit’s chemical section to predict the effects of possible attacks using chemical, biological or radiological weapons and advise the unit’s commander accordingly (00:09:25:00)  As well, Heine and the other officers might lead units responsible for decontamination, etc. (00:09:47:00)  Some of the work done in the corps was related to protecting against chemical weapons because they had been used previously by enemy forces; it was not based solely on what had happened in Vietnam, but what had happened in previous wars (00:10:11:00) o The instructors for the basic officer course were more senior members of the Army and most were primarily part of the chemical corps (00:10:35:00)  At the time, the chemical corps had the highest education level out of all the separate branches of the military; over half of Heine class in the basic officer course had a Master’s degree, while seven or eight either already had or were very close to their doctorates in chemistry or chemical engineering (00:10:43:00)  Of the seven or eight men named as honor graduates from the course, Heine was the only one who did not already have a doctorate (00:11:14:00) Reserve Duty (00:11:31:00)  The basic officer course lasted for three months, after which Heine returned home and began his reserve duty (00:11:31:00) o However, Heine was unable to find a chemical unit to join for his reserve duty, so he ended up joining an engineering unit; Heine transferred from the Chemical Corps to the Engineering Corps and stayed there until he retired (00:11:41:00) �   Heine made the switch between the two corps shortly after returning from his basic officer course in 1974 (00:11:55:00)  Although the Army can assign individuals to a specific unit if they have an obligation, since Heine was a volunteer, he was able to look around for a unit of his liking (00:12:17:00) Typically, Heine’s unit would meet one weekend a month, with an unpaid staff meeting on Friday night, followed by paid drill on Saturday and Sunday (00:12:43:00) o The unit’s higher headquarters were located in Fort Thomas, Kentucky, just across the Ohio River from Cincinnati; Heine and the other officers would spend one or two nights a month at the base to meet with the battalion commander and the battalion staff (00:12:59:00) o Initially, Heine was a platoon leader and company executive officer but as he advanced and took a company command, he started having to spend more time at the battalion’s higher headquarters, in Columbus, Ohio (00:13:20:00)  Eventually, it reached the point that, in the fall, it seemed like for seven straight weeks, Heine was traveling to something (00:13:47:00) o The meetings at headquarters consisted of planning, reviewing training from the previous year, looking at training for the upcoming year, etc. (00:13:49:00) When Heine first joined his new unit, there was a very interesting mix of personnel already in the unit (00:14:07:00) o There were still remnants of the draft, including soldiers who had been drafted and voluntarily stayed in the reserves, as well as people who had signed up with the reserves in order to avoid going to Vietnam (00:14:10:00)  Heine served with some very talented individuals in the unit who had signed up with the reserves hoping to not go to Vietnam (00:14:36:00)  Some of the personnel were even professional athletes who played for the Cincinnati Reds and Cincinnati Bengals (00:14:52:00)  Typically, the professional athletes were very much involved in recruiting for the reserves (00:15:25:00)  Heine did not see any tension between the soldiers who had gone to Vietnam and those who had enlisted in the reserves in order to avoid going to Vietnam (00:15:38:00)  For most of them, volunteering to serve in the military, for whatever reason, was honorable enough (00:15:42:00) o At one point, Heine had a private, first class in his unit who Heine placed incharge of creating the detailed aspects of Heine’s training program for the rest of the year (00:16:04:00)  At any one point, Heine had to have a detailed plan for that year’s training program plus outlines for the following two years (00:16:23:00)  When he gave the assignment, Heine sat down with the private and discussed exactly what Heine wanted from the assignment (00:16:32:00)  Heine’s training officer, one of the platoon leaders in the company, did not have to worry about doing anything because the private was doing the whole program (00:16:41:00)  At one point, the training officer came to Heine and asked why the private was doing all the work; Heine explained that the private �   had a Bachelor’s Degree in chemistry, a Master’s Degree in Business Administration, and had more credentials to do the job than the training officer did (00:17:11:00) During the 1970s, Heine and the other officers in the unit stayed very much aware of what was going on in the Army, although they lived in a very different culture from the active-duty Army (00:18:06:00) o During the Vietnam War, very few Reserve or National Guard units were called up to serve in Vietnam; following the end of the war, this created a significant chasm between the active-duty Army and the Reserve Army (00:18:15:00)  This was the period in which the members of the Reserve Army became known as “weekend warriors” (00:18:33:00) o Most of the contact that Heine and the other officers had with the active-duty Army was through advisors assigned to the unit (00:18:37:00)  For the most part, the “advisors” were seen as outsiders and evaluators/inspectors within the unit (00:18:47:00)  As well, the men also encountered active-duty personnel during their training exercises; sometimes those active-duty personnel worked well with the reserve personnel and sometimes they did not (00:19:01:00) o At the time, there was a culture within the Army that perceived that receiving an assignment to be an advisor to a reserve unit was a very negative thing for a soldier’s career (00:19:10:00) o Therefore, the advisors came into the reserve units feelings upset that they had been sent there and in many cases, the personnel in the reserve units did not fully accept the advisors into the units (00:19:31:00) o For the most part, the antagonism between the active-duty and reserve personnel would continue up until Desert Storm (00:19:42:00) Although Heine himself served in a combat engineer unit, which did not have any women members, the higher headquarters was opened up to women personnel (00:20:04:00) o The headquarters did eventually receive some women personnel and there were some problems as a result (00:20:32:00)  The problems did not result from poor job performance by the female personnel but from the female personnel spending too much time with male personnel (00:20:36:00) o Although Heine does not condemn female personnel and acknowledges they are more than capable of doing the job, the handful that the higher headquarters received just happened to cause problems (00:20:59:00) o As time went on and by the time Heine reached the level of battalion commander, most of the specialties within the unit were open to women and there were some very talented women at all levels (00:21:20:00) For officer promotions, there was a regular schedule for an officer to earn a promotion; just like in the active-duty, it was an “up-or-out” system (00:21:52:00) o “Up-or-out” meant that if an officer was passed over for promotion twice, then he was given his discharge; although promotions were slower in the reserves, if an officer did not make the cut, he was out (00:22:03:00) o Although of officers end up missing their promotions because they did not keep up on their military education (00:22:24:00) � At the time, there were a series of courses that officers and/or NCOs had to take; if someone did not take the courses, then they would not be selected form promotion (00:22:28:00)  Personnel could take the courses either through correspondence or going to courses at the various military schools (00:22:48:00) o After completing the basic officer course, Heine’s next course was the Advanced/Career Course (00:23:15:00)  For a variety of reasons, Heine ended up taking four different Advanced Courses; normally, an officer only needed to take one Advanced Course (00:23:24:00)  Following the Advanced Course, Heine’s next step was attending the Command and General Staff College (00:23:32:00)  Heine’s final step was attending the Army War College (00:23:39:00) o Heine did some of the courses by correspondence and some of the courses as a two-week, active-duty tour (00:23:47:00)  The active-duty tours largely consisted of going through the various courses (00:24:07:00)  The tours for the Advanced Course and the Command and General Staff College were easier (00:24:14:00)  Typically, each tour was two weeks, with eight hours of classes every day, followed by several hours of studying (00:24:18:00)  The courses could take place on any base that had the capability to hold them (00:24:35:00)  Some of Heine’s courses took place at Fort Lee, Virginia while others were at Reserve bases, such as Fort McCoy, Wisconsin (00:24:43:00) o On the other hand, the Army War College was much more intense course than the Advanced Course and Command and General Staff College; the two, two-week active-duty tours to complete the course were misery (00:24:51:00)  This course took place at the Army War College itself, located at Carlisle Barracks in Pennsylvania (00:25:02:00)  The Army War College is the highest level of education in the Army and was so intense that by completing it, Heine was able to earn a Master’s Degree in Strategic Studies (00:25:09:00)  The course was a two-year, ultra-intensive correspondence course where Heine focused on nothing but his civilian job and studying through a box of books about two feet thick, one box every six weeks (00:25:41:00)  After finishing with all the books, Heine ended up writing three research papers (00:25:53:00)  Apart from the papers, at the mid-point of the course, there was a two-week residence course in Pennsylvania and another two-week residence course at the end of the two years (00:26:07:00)  Heine’s papers ended up covering a variety of topics: the papers began by looking at management vs. leadership then continued on to studies at the strategic level, looking at the American military and political systems (00:26:22:00) �o In the papers, Heine did not look at military history just for the sake of looking at history; instead, he used the history to gain information about the strategic implications for the studies (00:27:14:00)  By the time he graduated from the War College in 1997, Heine had reached the rank of colonel (00:27:37:00) Persian Gulf War / Staff-Level Assignments / 9-11 (00:27:56:00)  When the First Persian Gulf War started in 1990, Heine was a Lieutenant-Colonel and a commander of a combat-heavy engineering battalion (00:27:56:00) o At the start of the war, Heine’s unit was very high on the list for their specific type of unit; the Reserves sent the first unit on the list to participate while placing the second unit on the list on and off alert several times (00:28:07:00) o Heine’s unit was third on the list and he largely followed what the second unit did, although without the “assistance” of the Army, a fact he figures was to his advantage (00:28:27:00)  Instead of having people coming in and telling him three different ways to do a specific task, Heine could look at the end result and attain it internally (00:28:48:00) o Heine’s unit ended up not being deployed; however, had the ground war gone for weeks instead of days, the unit would have probably mobilized (00:29:03:00)  Heine knew where his unit was in the mobilization list and was able to follow what happened with the second unit on the list (00:29:27:00)  Because Heine’s unit was located in Toledo, Ohio, not far away from the large Muslim population in Dearborn, MI, the unit received additional intelligence from them (00:30:02:00)  Since the Persian Gulf War and prior to 9/11, both the Reserves and the National Guard were heavily utilized; the war itself was a watershed in terms of the coordination and attitude between the Active-Duty and Reserves (00:30:36:00) o There were a large number of mobilizations that did not involve either the Reserves or the National Guard actually going to war (00:31:12:00) o As well, the United States’ continued operations in Bosnia and Kosovo utilized a large portion of Reserve and National Guard personnel (00:31:25:00)  Heine happened to be in the Pentagon when the hijacked airplane hit the building during 9/11; Heine was able to get out of the building and able to go home, courtesy of the National Guard (00:31:35:00) o At the time, Heine was on a committee called the Army Reserve Forces Policy Committee, an advisor committee on Reserve affairs for the Secretary of the Army (00:31:51:00) o On 9/11, Heine and the other members of the committee were in groups preparing to give a presentation to the Secretary of the Army (00:32:02:00) o When the airplane stuck the building, Heine was one side of the building away from the impact (00:32:37:00)  Although Heine and the other members did not hear the airplane flying in, they felt a shudder, heard a thump and the door of the room, which was not full closed, was pushed open (00:32:46:00) �  The man sitting next to the door pushed the door closed and the members continued on preparing for the presentation (00:33:11:00)  During a break in the preparation, the group’s note taker saw the news about an airplane hitting the first World Trade Center tower and when the group reconvened, the note taker told the others that a Piper Cub had hit the trade center (00:33:18:00)  Heine had flown Piper Cubs before and it would not have been as big a deal as it was, so he sent the note taker to find out what was going on (00:33:42:00)  Shortly thereafter, Heine and the committee meet in the note taker’s boss’ office, which had a television, just in time to see the airplane hit the second World Trade Center tower (00:33:52:00)  The group returned to work, shortly after which the airplane hit the Pentagon, which ended the meeting and forced the group to evacuate from the building (00:34:03:00)  Most of the group ended up getting home either by renting a car or flying home, which Heine himself did (00:34:13:00)  Heine flew back with a group of high-ranking National Guard personnel who were the emergency managers for their individual states (00:34:28:00)  The group received permission from the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) and DoD (Department of Defense) to fly a D.C. National Guard airplane to Detroit, where Heine and the commander of the Michigan National Guard got off; the two men board another airplane to Lansing, where the one of the commander’s subordinates drove Heine home (00:34:33:00) After he returned home from Washington, Heine was assigned to be the deputy commanding officer of Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri (00:35:01:00) o Heine managed to make it home on Wednesday, September 12th, and called his boss, the commanding general of the base, the following morning to see if they needed him to go to the base (00:35:12:00)  Although the general was the only one of the five general officers assigned to the fort, the other two were making plans to return, so they did not need Heine to travel to the base (00:35:23:00)  Heine called again on Friday and again, the commanding general said that they had things under control (00:35:37:00)  On Monday morning, Heine was paged as work, which did not happen very often; when Heine picked up the phone, it was the commanding general, who asked what it would take to get Heine to the fort because he was needed (00:35:44:00)  Heine made another phone call and within fifteen minutes, had orders in hand, so he left work, went home, packed his car, and left (00:36:01:00) o Heine stayed at Leonard Wood from the Monday following 9/11 through the end of October (00:36:14:00)  Although Heine expected to be mobilized, he never was and, ended up staying at Leonard Wood until the following May (00:36:21:00) � While at the base, Heine’s job was helping coordinate all the activities on the base and assisting with security, mobilizing both a National Guard military police company and an Army Reserve police company (00:36:44:00)  As well, the base underwent “Training Base Expansion”, which involved bringing aspects of both the National Guard and Army Reserve to the base to increase the capabilities of the base, in anticipation of an influx of soldiers necessary for any operations that would follow (00:37:08:00)  Including Heine, there were five general officers assigned to the base: the commanding general, the deputy commandant of the Engineering school, the commandant of the Military Police school, the commandant of the Chemical school, and Heine (00:37:57:00)  The commandant of the Military Police school was pulled away and assigned to oversee force protection for all the training/indoctrination posts in the Army (00:38:15:00)  The commandant of the Chemical School was pulled to Washington D.C. to work protection of critical assists throughout the country to could be potential targets (00:38:24:00)  The deputy commandant of the Engineer school was pulled away to work as part of a counter-IED (improvised explosive device) task force (00:38:42:00)  Because none of the active deputy commanders were on the base, Heine had to do all of their duties (00:38:52:00) o Heine stayed at Leonard Wood full time until the end of October, when he switch to third time and began traveling back and forth between the base and his home, through the end of May, 2002 (00:39:10:00) Pre-Invasion / The Iraq War (00:39:23:00)  On June 1st, 2002, Heine received his second star and took command of a theater-level engineer command, the 416th Engineer Command in Chicago (00:39:23:00) o When Heine received the initial phone call about the promotion, the general who he would be replacing told him “congratulations, he was receiving his second star and a command, so pack your bags” (00:39:35:00) o Heine took command of his new unit on June 1st and immediately immersed himself in the formation of war plans for the possibility of an upcoming invasion of Iraq; although the orders to invade had not officially been given, the Department of the Army still formulated contingency plans (00:40:01:00)  The unit Heine took command of was the engineering unit responsible for support to U.S. Central Command, which meant the unit was heavily involved in developing and refine the engineering components for any invasion contingency plans (00:40:24:00)  By the time Heine took command, the unit had already had a small cell mobilized that deployed on December 1st, 2001 to Kuwait along with other portions of Central Command (00:40:58:00) � The cell was actively involved in all the engineer planning while in Kuwait (00:41:13:00)  Heine had a secure telephone line to the cell and would spend roughly an hour to an hour and a half each morning reviewing the various engineer support plans for any possible invasion route into Iraq (00:41:19:00) o From the time he took command of the unit, Heine reviewed the invasion plans until he deployed to Kuwait (00:41:37:00)  Initially, Heine went to Kuwait for ten days in August, where he met with the engineering cell; as well, he went to the CentCom (Central Command) Forward Headquarters in Qatar and Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan (00:41:47:00)  As part of his command, Heine was responsible for all the Army facility engineer teams in the region and had teams deployed to: Kuwait, Qatar, Bagram, Kandahar Airport, and a support nod at Karshi-Kanabad Airfield in Uzbekistan (00:42:03:00)  During the ten days he was in the region, Heine visited all of those teams and also worked on the war plans (00:42:22:00)  As he traveled to the various locations, Heine’s mind was always on doing the mission (00:43:02:00)  When Heine was a Lieutenant-Colonel during Desert Storm, he thought about how much time he had spent in the military and lamented the fact that he would not be deploy to take part in the operation (00:43:08:00) o In Heine’s mind, if he did not deploy, as he moved forward in his career, what accolades/achievements/experiences would he have to help him deal with those men who had actually deployed (00:43:33:00)  In a way, once the situation came up that Heine would deploy to Kuwait, in a way, it was kind of exciting for him, the possibility that he might be going (00:43:49:00)  Each of the locations Heine visited was physically different from each of the other locations (00:44:05:00)  However, at each location, the soldiers were all doing their work exceptionally well; from what Heine saw, he was unable to tell the difference between which soldiers were active duty and which soldiers were reservists (00:44:09:00) o Within the engineering component of the Army, the reservists often had more engineering skills, both at the officer and enlisted levels, because that was often their job in the civilian world (00:44:18:00)  During the planning phase, Heine’s unit actually had more engineers within their small cell than the rest of Third Army at CentCom Headquarters did combined (00:44:42:00) �o For the most part, Heine did not have too much to worry about in terms of operations in Afghanistan other than the rotation of his units (00:45:48:00)  The specific operations for each individual units were decided once the units were at their assigned locations (00:46:07:00)  The only real issue Heine had with any of the units in Afghanistan was a leadership issue with a couple of the teams (00:46:12:00)  Heine had to make long-distance decisions regarding the teams and ended up taking the team leader from Kuwait and a LieutenantColonel, sending them to Afghanistan, and having them take command of the two teams (00:46:24:00) o During this command, Heine did not see any problems in regards to the leadership of the units adapting to being in a legitimate shooting conflict (00:47:38:00) o Heine eventually officially deployed to Kuwait in November 2002 along with a fairly good-sized group of reserve leadership who had been deployed to participate in war game exercises at both the Third Army level and the Central Command level (00:47:54:00)  The war games were meant to test the invasions plans that he already been developed (00:48:24:00)  Although a couple of the officers were able to leave relatively quickly due to reserve orders, the majority were involved in a fight between the active-duty component and the reserve component over who would pay to the exercises (00:48:29:00)  Most of the officers ended up being mobilized, which meant they had to go through pre-deployment training, then deploy, then get back in time to go through another process (00:48:44:00)  However, because the Army wanted to limit the officers to twentynine days of mobilization, after the pre-deployment training, the officers arrived in Kuwait on about the tenth day and had to leave by the twentieth day (00:49:00:00)  Heine himself left for Kuwait a couple of days before the other officers; because it was so close to his actual deployment date, he did not have to go through the training (00:49:19:00)  Heine believes that he and his sergeant major were the first of the group to arrive in-country and they were the only ones of the group to participate in the first war games exercise (00:49:38:00)  It was a fascinating experience for Heine to participate in the two different exercises (00:49:59:00)  At the end of the exercises, Heine’s commander, General David McKiernan, kept Heine on for a little bit longer to help with additional planning (00:50:05:00)  Heine ended up staying in Kuwait and offering assistance until just before Christmas 2002 (00:50:24:00)  Before he deployed, Heine had been warned to pack heavy because he might not be going home for an extended period of time (00:50:28:00) �   Heine took the advice and brought everything he needed, so that when he returned home, he left all his supplies in Kuwait and only brought home a small overnight bag (00:50:35:00) Heine returned home just before Christmas 2002 and was officially mobilized on January 2nd, 2003 (00:50:46:00) During planning for the invasion, the engineers were responsible for preparing information on mobility, counter-mobility, and general engineering (00:51:10:00) o The Army forces had to be able to go where they needed to go (mobility), the enemy could not go where the Army did not want them to go (counter-mobility) and the forces needed the proper facilities to make that happen (general engineering) (00:51:19:00) o Heine’s role in the planning was at the theater-level and he reported directly to Gen. McKiernan, who was the commander of Third Army, Army Component Central Command, Coalition Force Land Component Command (00:51:36:00)  Gen. McKiernan was the overall commander for the grounds forces for the invasion (00:51:47:00) o The engineers were responsible for building all of the facilities needed for the influx of soldiers and equipment coming into Kuwait (00:51:54:00)  One of the most important parts of this was constructing landing and parking areas for helicopters; without a proper landing pad, a helicopter could kick up enough dirt that the pilots would lose their frame of reference and crash (00:52:05:00)  Another key aspect that the engineers dealt with during the planning was how to get enough fuel to the forward units of the invasion (00:52:27:00)  Although Coalition forces drew fuel directly from a Kuwaiti oil refinery, the overall fuel requirements for the invasion force was roughly four million gallons per day, and neither the Army or Marine Corps had the haul capacity to carry that much fuel during the invasion (00:52:32:00)  Therefore, the engineers built pipelines that carried two million gallons of fuel a day directly to the Kuwaiti-Iraqi border (00:52:53:00)  The unit assigned to constructing the pipelines was the further deployed unit prior to the invasion, other than various Special Forces units (00:53:06:00) o The unit was well within range of Iraqi artillery and was working to store jet fuel (00:53:15:00)  The engineers also had to develop all of the plans to immediately move all of the logistic capabilities forward, move additional fuel forward, and how to deal with any prisoners of war (00:53:22:00)  During Operation Desert Shield¸ the build-up prior to Operation Desert Storm, one of the limiting factors of the timing of the invasion was the lack of availability of proper housing facilities of any POWs (00:53:36:00) �  The Kuwaitis did not want Iraqi POWs on their soil, so prior to the invasion in 2003, the engineers were unable to build facilities in Iraq (00:53:58:00) o Instead, they prepared plans to build the POW facilities in Iraq after the invasion started, which was a difficult process to plan (00:54:22:00)  The invasion route into Iraq was covered with various rivers and canals and if the Iraqi forces were able to successfully destroy the crossings over the rivers and canals, the engineers would need all of the Army and Marine Corps bridge assets to continue the operation (00:54:36:00)  In some cases, the engineers would have to put a bridge in, let the attacking force cross, remove the bridge, get ahead of the attacking force, and set the bridge up again (00:54:55:00)  However, the Iraqis were unable to destroy the bridges, so the engineers did not have to worry about that (00:55:05:00) o For Heine, prior to the invasion, there was not a period when he knew the invasion would be happening and that it was only a matter of time (00:55:27:00)  Although it looked like the forces would be going in, the actual decision to invade was not made until around the day before the beginning of the invasion actually took place (00:55:33:00)  A small group of officers, Heine included, received a phone call soon after the president had made the decision to invade (00:55:52:00) o Although Heine did not have any direct supervision over develop plans if the Iraqis used chemical or biological weapons, one of the things that he and the other commanders always made sure of was that their soldiers were properly trained in the use of their protective equipment (00:56:21:00)  During the build-up prior to the invasion, the soldiers initially carried only some of their protective equipment but eventually started carrying all of the protective equipment; at the time, the Iraqis were launching SCUD missiles and the soldiers had no way of knowing if the missiles carried chemical or biological weapons (00:56:36:00)  One of Heine’s units was given the assignment of building facilities to house Patriot missiles, which were used to shoot down incoming SCUDs (00:57:15:00) Once the invasion started, the lack of use of chemical weapons by the Iraqis came as a surprise; as well, the speed by which the invasion force was able to advance was a very pleasant surprise (00:57:35:00) o The commanders had anticipated that the invasion would take quite a bit longer than it did (00:57:46:00) o Because he took part in the support planning for the invasion, Heine knew how each of the units was supposed to work (00:57:56:00)  One of the “neatest” briefings Heine saw was when Gen. McKiernan, prior to giving a briefing to General Tommy Franks and the Secretary of Defense, had one finally rehearsal briefing (00:58:04:00)  During the briefing, McKiernan had the Army Corps Commander and the Marines Expeditionary Force Commander, commanders � of the two primary attacking forces, seated at a table at the front of the room, while Heine himself was seated in the first row (00:58:31:00)  At one point during the briefing, McKiernan had a slide where he paused for a second and his civilian contractor said, “Sir, it is on the next slide” (00:58:54:00)  At other times, Heine took part in sand table exercises, which involved massive maps that made up the entire floor of a room, where the officers laid out exactly how each individual unit was going to operate during the invasion (00:59:18:00) o The only aspect of the invasion that really surprised Heine was the collapse of the Iraqi Army and the speed with which the invasion force moved in (01:00:08:00) o There are a number of good books by the senior leaders of the invasion that talk about the pressure from the Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense to use a smaller invasion force than the Army and Marines had used during Desert Storm (01:01:32:00)  However, there was a lot of resistance to that, especially amongst the ground forces (01:01:51:00)  According to Gen. McKiernan, use of a smaller invasion force would result in a “catastrophic success” (01:01:59:00)  The fear was that a smaller invasion force would be able to defeat Saddam Hussein and his government but would be unable to maintain control of the country (01:02:12:00)  Prior to the invasion, Heine believes that McKiernan put his entire career on the line in an effort to obtain more ground forces for the invasion (01:02:34:00) Once the invasion officially started, Heine and the engineering component had responsibility for maintaining the main roads going into Iraq (01:03:32:00) o The Kuwaitis wanted as little traffic as was necessary on their one road north into Iraq, so the invasion forces used the remnants of a road that Iraqi forces had built during their invasion of Kuwait prior to Desert Storm (01:03:43:00)  A large portion of the base camps for the various invasion units were constructed along this road and would use the road once the invasion had started (01:04:11:00) o As well, the engineers had to quickly construct the pipelines out of Kuwait, theater sustainment nodes for both the Army and Marines, and the primary prisoner of war camp (01:04:25:00) o The engineers were also told to begin constructing re-deployment facilities for the equipment that needed to be sent home (01:04:45:00)  All vehicles destined to return to the United States had to rigorously cleaned and pass a United States Department of Agriculture inspection before actually being sent back to the United States (01:05:01:00)  The expectation in June 2003 was that the invasion forces would only be in-country for a short period of time, so the re-deployment facilities needed to be constructed quickly (01:05:12:00) �o The engineers under Heine’s command were not responsible for constructing the defenses around the Green Zone, a fortified area within Baghdad (01:06:12:00)  The plan was for Heine’s engineers to provide support for the invasion forces while a fortified engineering brigade would provide support once the invasion forces had pushed further into Iraq (01:06:16:00)  However, having worked together prior to the invasion, both the brigade commander and Heine sent requests to their superiors asking that the bulk of Heine’s forces be transferred into Iraq to assist the brigade’s operations (01:06:39:00)  At the time, Heine’s forces had much more planning and design capability than the brigade forces did (01:07:11:00)  However, the decision was made above Gen. McKiernan’s level that Heine’s forces would not transfer soldiers to assist the brigade (01:07:29:00)  Instead, Heine was given very clear instructions that as his individual units finished their assignments in Iraq, they were supposed to return to Kuwait (01:07:41:00)  As the units returned to Kuwait, Heine laid out what assignments still remained in Kuwait, which units would be assigned to them, and which units could be sent home (01:07:52:00) o Once the overview was complete, Heine turned over command to a colonel and returned home himself, returning to the United States in July 2003 (01:08:17:00) o Going into the invasion, Heine and the other commanders knew that nothing was going to be easy (01:08:53:00)  As part of developing the war plans, the commanders had the “capstone program”, which involved targeting specific units to complete specific missions (01:09:04:00)  Heine and the commanders knew one of their key assignments was completing the pipeline into Iraq, so a couple of units were specifically trained on constructing the pipeline (01:09:32:00)  However, both units were reservists and the decision was made at the DoD level to not mobilize the reserve units until absolutely necessary; therefore, Heine ended up using an active-duty battalion which had not received any of the specialized training to complete the pipeline (01:10:02:00)  Another large challenge that Heine and the other commanders faced was having enough spare parts for all of their equipment (01:10:53:00)  The Army’s policy was to look at an individual unit’s history in regards to using repair parts and would then authorize additional parts based on that history (01:11:01:00)  However, neither the National Guard or reserve units were authorized to receive repair parts, so none of the mobilized reserve units deployed with any repair parts (01:11:21:00) o Some of the units were able to receive some parts from active-duty support facilities, but not near enough to cover the demand (01:11:34:00) � The active-duty units did not use their equipment all that often, so there was not a large supply of repair parts (01:11:44:00)  Operating in the desert meant that the filters and hydraulic lines on the equipment, as well as the cutting edges on diggers and bulldozers, wore out much fast and there was no provision for units to receive repair parts (01:11:58:00)  Heine’s unit ended up making massive, blanket purchase orders to bring in the repair parts; within days, the orders wiped out the supply of parts in both the Middle East and Europe (01:12:16:00) o Heine never referred to the invasion as “Mission Accomplished” and that statement was frustrating to many of the commanders because they knew the tremendous amount of work that still needed to be done (01:13:37:00) Second Deployment / Post-Military Observations (01:13:52:00) Heine was kept on active-duty through August 2003 and two days after he left active-duty, he received a phone call from the Deputy Chief of Engineers saying that the Chief of Engineers wanted to talk to him (01:13:52:00) o Heine went in the next week to speak with the Chief and found out he was being sent back to Iraq (01:14:05:00) o The Chief informed Heine that the Army was considering establishing a four-star General-level command in Iraq and if/when that happened, Heine was going to “volunteer” to go back (01:14:26:00) o After receiving the news, Heine immediately began working with the senior engineer in Iraq, a one-star reserve general, to lay the groundwork for what the Multi-National Force, Iraq Engineer Section would look like (01:14:39:00)  Part of the section would come from Heine’s headquarters while the remainder would come from other parts of the Army and the other armed forces (01:15:02:00) o Heine expected that once the section was officially formed, he would deploy to Iraq to act as the section commander (01:15:10:00)  Heine received the call that he would be deploying to Iraq to take command of the engineering section in March 2004, on the same day he found out he needed to have open-heart surgery (01:15:22:00) o Heine had his open-heart surgery in April, in June his former Deputy deployed on a short tour to officially organized the engineering section, and a couple of months later, the overall commander made the decision to move the engineer responsibility back to the corps-level, while keeping Heine’s position to act as the head of the Iraq Reconstruction Management Office (01:15:31:00) o Heine deployed the following January after spending about a week receiving additional training (01:16:25:00)  Once reconstruction funding for Iraq passed in a supplemental budget, the President decided to form several new organizations, one of �which was the Iraq Reconstruction Management Office (IRMO) working out of the U.S. Embassy in Iraq (01:16:49:00) o The IRMO had the responsibility to oversee the allocation and utilization of the $18.4 Billion that had been authorized for reconstruction funding; the IRMO also had the lead role in working with the various Iraqi ministries to help develop the ministries’ ability to govern (01:17:11:00) o The original leader of the IRMO was a retired two-star Navy Admiral, who was replaced by an ambassador (01:17:34:00) o The IRMO consisted of advisory teams supporting each of the Iraqi Ministries and personnel working on the allocation of the reconstruction funding in accordance with the Congressional intent (01:18:03:00) o Heine himself was the deputy director for the entire organization and was the director of operations (01:18:25:00)  His primary job was providing leadership to all of the various advisory teams, including those assigned to the Iraqi Defense Ministry and the Interior Ministry (01:18:30:00)  However, the leadership for the Defense Ministry was meant to be led by the military, so after Heine had been at the IRMO for about six months, the leadership of the Defense ministry was transferred back to the military (01:18:45:00) o As well, four Iraqi Ministries had been formed solely to work on the reconstruction of the cities hit hardest by the fighting: Fallujah, Sadr City, Baghdad, etc. (01:19:20:00) o The IRMO constantly monitored the needs of the Iraqis to determine how to best allocate the reconstruction funding and then work with the Iraqi Ministries and the implementation agencies to ensure the funds were properly utilized (01:19:54:00)  Concurrently, the IRMO was using its own resources to encourage the Iraqi government to utilize its own resources (01:20:21:00) o While in the IRMO, Heine had daily interaction with Iraqi officials (01:20:41:00)  The Iraqi government had assigned one of their deputy Prime Minister to be in-charge of reconstruction and Heine met with the official several times a week (01:20:44:00)  One of the deputy Prime Ministers, Ahmed Chalabi, ended up forming a National Energy Committee, which oversaw oil, electricity, water, etc.; Heine himself was a part of that committee (01:21:02:00) o The biggest challenge with Heine’s job was finding ways to get the Iraqis to take additional responsibilities for making their own improvements (01:21:48:00)  The Iraqi system was rather dysfunctional, especially after the order was given to wipe out the Ba’ath party, which effectively removed the entire Iraqi civil service (01:21:58:00) �     It was very difficult to reestablish the civil service capabilities within the Iraqi ministries (01:22:24:00)  The personnel in the IRMO tried as much as possible to use the reconstruction funds and American contractors to work with the Iraqis to improve the Iraqis’ capabilities to plan and manage their own reconstruction (01:22:28:00)  The political situation and in-fighting between the various political parties made the work very difficult (01:22:50:00) The well-known “Surge” occurred after Heine had already returned home from his deployment; Heine himself returned home in June 2006 (01:23:18:00) o However, Heine sees the origins of the turnaround that happened as a result of the Surge in the work done with Sunni leadership in the Anbar province located in western Iraq (01:23:24:00)  During the time period after the invasion, Marine forces were deployed in Anbar and in both Fallujah and Ramadi (the capital of the province), the Marines were attempting to hold town meetings but were struggling to involve the city leadership (01:23:45:00)  However, over time, the Marines were more and more successful in getting the Iraqis involved, so that by the time Heine left, the Marines were sitting around the outside of the meetings while the Iraqis were running the meetings (01:24:29:00) The issue of IEDs was handled primarily at the corps level; the major effect that IRMO felt was the increase in security requirements for the contractors (01:25:45:00) o The increased security requirements were very costly and ended up forcing the IRMO to restructure the program and scale back some of the work that the organization had been planning to do (01:26:08:00) o As time passed, the IRMO tried more and more to get the Iraqis involved in the reconstruction and have Iraqi firms do the majority of the work (01:26:45:00)  One method the IRMO used to do this was posting all upcoming projects and having the various Iraqi firms bid on the projects; however, the postings were in Baghdad but a lot of people did not want firms located in Baghdad (01:27:03:00) There was a lot of politics involved in Heine’s job and he does not know a way in which he could fully train for it (01:27:34:00) From a personal stand point, after spending seventeen months on his second deployment, by the time the deployment ended, Heine was ready to go home; however, the IRMO’s mission was not complete when Heine returned home (01:27:54:00) o By the time Heine returned home, the official mission for IRMO, the allocation of the $18.4 billion, was coming to a close; the majority of the money had been allocated and remaining funds would be used on projects to had been developed after others had been canceled (01:28:08:00) �  Normally, Heine was in the office by 6:45 in the morning, unless something happened during the night that required him to be there earlier (01:28:51:00) o Every morning, Heine would go to a Battle Update Assessment (BUA) briefing every morning at 7:30, which gave him forty-five minutes to review everything that had happened overnight and be prepared for any issues that might come up in the briefing (01:29:03:00)  A couple of slides in the briefing would talk about the essential services in Iraq; if anything happened with the services during the night, Heine would wake up earlier to be “brought up to speed” (01:29:31:00) o After the BUA briefing, Heine would attend another briefing with a handful of other senior leaders, where they discussed in-depth any key issues that had developed in the previous twenty-four hours (01:29:59:00) o The remainder of Heine’s day consisted of going out to meet with various Iraqi ministries, visiting some of the construction projects on Fridays and Saturdays, and meeting with the various American units (01:30:18:00) o Typically, Heine would work until around ten or eleven o’clock at night, when he would go to sleep until early the next morning, then get up and do the same routine over again (01:30:45:00) Heine feels that he was somewhat fortunate because IRMO received “first dibs” on security teams; IRMO received a security team from Blackwater, a private military contractor (01:31:01:00) o The security team would travel with any of the four senior leaders of IRMO whenever one of the leaders went into the field; given the nature of their jobs, out of the four, Heine was in the field ninety percent of the time and the remaining three were ten percent (01:31:18:00) o The members of the security team assigned to IRMO were very talented, very through, and were not very aggressive; Heine felt safer going out with a Blackwater team than with any other contractor (01:31:37:00)  Heine was meeting with various Iraqi ministries and if the security team assigned to him was very aggressive in their approach, the Iraqis would be upset with Heine before they had even met him (01:32:11:00) o The civilians working in IRMO were often out in the field more than a lot of the other personnel in the Green Zone (01:33:08:00) o The two closest calls Heine experienced were when a suicide bomber who’s bomb failed to go off and when he and his team came under mortar attack while in the middle of the largest oil refinery in Iraq (01:33:37:00)  Heine was at the refinery with Deputy Prime Minister Chalabi and the helicopters were just coming in to pick the group up when the mortars started coming in (01:34:03:00) �  The helicopters pulled out and the group got into their vehicles to take one member who had been wounded to the nearest medical facility (01:34:18:00) Looking back, although the assignment at IRMO was very challenging for Heine, it was also very fascinating for him (01:35:10:00) o Heine was amazed to have to opportunities that he did, especially working with the senior-level Iraqi officials and just being able to view history at an up close, personal level (01:35:18:00)  Heine was in Iraq when the Iraqis held elections for the interim government, ratification of the new Iraqi Constitution, and the election of the constitutional government (01:35:40:00)  By the time of the constitutional elections, only three general officers had been in Iraq for all three of the elections, the overall commander, General George W. Casey, Jr., Heine and one other general, who ended up returning home two weeks after the final election (01:35:55:00) o Working at the U.S. Embassy as a soldier was a very interesting experience, largely due to the different philosophies of the Department of Defense and the Department of State (01:36:16:00)  One time, Heine was preparing the ambassador for a briefing to the Principles Committee, which was basically the National Security Council minus the President and Vice President (01:36:43:00)  Few military personnel were allowed to attend the briefing and just as it was getting time from the ambassador to leave for the briefing, the Deputy ambassador asked if the ambassador would like Heine to go with him, in case there were any additional questions (01:37:07:00) o Heine knew he was not supposed to be at the briefing and was hoping the ambassador would say “no” (01:37:39:00)  The ambassador said “yes”, so he and Heine walked to the room where the briefing was taking place; inside the room was a fairly wide table with seats in the back (01:37:46:00) o Heine walked into the room and went to the back with the Deputy ambassador but the ambassador motioned for Heine to sit next to him at the table (01:38:01:00)  When the briefing began, the National Security Advisor, Dr. Stephen Hadley, who was leading the briefing, gave his opening remarks and then subsequently turned the briefing over to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (01:38:40:00)  Once Secretary Rice finished her remarks, she told the ambassador to begin and the next thing Heine heard, the ambassador said that he was going to have Heine give the briefing, which was not part of the plan (01:38:56:00) �o   Roughly eighty percent of the information in the briefing was work Heine had developed and fortunately, he had been at the practice sessions so he could know about the other twenty percent (01:39:06:00)  Heine ended up giving the entire briefing and answered whatever questions were asked (01:39:18:00)  Once the briefing was over, Heine returned to his office and was not back for more than five minutes when he received a phone call from Gen. Casey’s office, telling Heine to come to the general’s office (01:39:30:00)  Heine went to talk with the general, who explained that Secretary Rumsfeld had called about Heine being at the briefing and the general explained that Heine worked for the embassy and the embassy wanted him to be there (01:39:43:00)  As a result of giving the briefing to the Principles Committee, Heine was then assigned the job of giving any reconstruction briefings, which meant he gave several briefings to Secretary Rice and met several times one-on-one with Secretary Rumsfeld (01:40:18:00) Heine believes that Gen. Casey did a better job in his assignment than Heine believes the general receives credit for (01:40:54:00) o All of the senior military leaders whom Heine worked with were outstanding, proving time and again that the military had a very good selection process for choosing its leadership (01:41:05:00) o Heine believes that Gen. Casey in particular received unfair criticism from politicians which was not warranted (01:41:40:00)  Heine believes the military provided significant leadership not just in the military effort but in the entire coalition effort (01:42:02:00)  Gen. Casey faced difficult (Heine would define it was almost hostile) questioning in his confirmation to be the Army Chief of Staff, based largely on his service in Iraq (01:42:24:00) o Nevertheless, Heine worked with a lot of good individuals who did a lot of good work and were heavily invested (01:42:41:00)  Every Wednesday, the commander of the forces stationed in Baghdad would have a three-hour briefing on the reconstruction efforts and would have details about every single project (01:43:37:00)  If the details were not up to the level that he commander wanted, then he wanted to know why (01:43:58:00)  The commander made the connection that the reconstruction efforts in Baghdad would help the overall security; not just the improved facilities but also the process of improving the facilities was beneficial (01:44:29:00) Heine returned home in June 2006 and retired from the Army at the end of July 2006 (01:45:04:00) �o   According to Army policy, as a general officer, if Heine did not have another assignment to go to after returning home, he would retire (01:45:16:00)  By the time his second deployment ended, Heine was too old to be considered for another full assignment; however, he had been considered for as Chief Army Reserve but was not selected (01:45:25:00) o After he retired, Heine was fortunate enough to be selected to assist in training senior National Guard and Reserve engineer units who would be deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan (01:46:01:00)  Heine was a contractor and traveled to wherever the various units were mobilizing out of; primarily, it was: Fort McCoy, Wisconsin; Camp Shelby, Mississippi; and Fort Hood, Texas (01:46:18:00)  Heine’s job involved working with general-led units who were going through a series of very intense exercises that placed the units in the area they would be assigned and having them go through real missions and working with real-world intelligence (01:46:37:00)  Heine’s specific job was as the senior mentor who would coach the various units through the exercises (01:47:02:00) While he was working as the mentor, Heine had to stay abreast of what was happening in Iraq, including at a classified level (01:47:22:00) o Overall, events in Iraq since he left have happened at a level where Heine expected them to happen; however, he would like to see more progress and in his mind, it is disappointing that Shia-led government has not been more accommodating of the Sunni (01:47:55:00) Heine does very little work now-in-days, spending a few hours a week consulting for a non-profit professional services company; as well, he remains in contact with the Army engineers (01:49:05:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Heine, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Heine, Robert Description An account of the resource Bob Heine was born in 1947 in the Bronx, New York. After high school, he enrolled in the engineering program at Auburn University in Alabama, and completed four years of ROTC training. Instead of going to Vietnam, he was sent to graduate school for two years, and then received specialized chemical training, after which he went into the reserves rather than active duty. He soon switched to the Engineer Corps, and pursued a professional career while advancing through the ranks in the reserves. He was assigned to command an engineer battalion during Desert Storm, but the unit was not deployed due to the brevity of the war. After 9/11, however, he was activated, working initially at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri, and then being deployed to Kuwait and Iraq in command of a unit supporting American forces in those countries, and wound up doing two tours in Iraq as a major general and working with high ranking American and Iraqi officials. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-09 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HeineB1379V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ff52b58eecaa9685f9d352dddbf64426.mp4 79026dc4ce61de880dd45fd449dc873c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ecc6f2d727d7e1eccaf4d579f7d501b2.pdf 3265fdbd7964f4cf4adaa4e00b6fde9c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee name: Bill Heintzelman Length of Interview (00:47:15) (00:00:12)Pre-Enlistment  Background o Born August 7, 1943, enlisted in 1961. o Born in Grand Rapids, MI, St. Mary’s Hospital.  Family o Father was a metal finisher, had been drafted into WWII after Heintzelman was born, mother was a housewife. o Had a brother and two sisters.  Education o Went to Godwin Heights High School. o 10 days after graduating, went to Great Lakes. (00:02:00)Enlistment and Training  Why he joined o Family tradition to join the Navy.  Where he went o Enlisted in Downtown Grand Rapids, 1961, before graduating. o Sent to Great Lakes, Illinois. o Entailed a lot about military courtesy and physical fitness, utilizing space on a ship. o In Great Lakes for six to nine weeks for basic training. o (00:03:55)Went to Radioman “A” School, a code school, in VA  There for 16 weeks.  Primarily drilled in Morse code; 22 words a minute, copy and send.  Didn’t use it after training.  Skills Learned o (00:04:46)Was taught the basics of transmitters. o When Heintzelman became a Naval Communication Station Balboa, wound up working with transmitters with high, low, and medium frequencies; time transmitters o Time transmitter- beeps every second, controlled by the atomic clock, exactly on time o (00:05:50)Was also a part of a drill team; marching and “rifle tricks” Active Duty  (00:06:07)Panama Canal o From VA, he went to a Naval Communication Station near the Panama Canal, Naval Communication Station Balboa. o (00:06:33)Day to day duty; watch-standing duty. o Had three buildings, each dealt with different speeds of frequency. �o Definitions  Low frequency (VLF) - meter readings, preventative maintenance, retuning it.  Mid frequency (VHF) - like the VLF, took transmitter readings, kept it in tune; all done by ear/guesstimate.  High frequency - changing frequencies, loading transmitters (30 or 40 different antennae); a very tough job.  Low frequency for submarines; mid frequency for normal transmissions, navigation information for both merchant ships and naval ships  o Work Responsibilities & experiences  A lot of coded messages very top secret but too “garbled” to understand; each frequency had side bands with opposing signals.  120-130 messages could go out simultaneously.  Dreadfully hot in Panama.  Transmitter site located in the jungle itself.  Dealt with a lot of snakes and scorpions.  Once ran across a 14ft. Boa. (00:11:45)Cuban Missile Crisis o Background & Experiences  October 21, 1962; everyone was called out to the High Frequency Building.  At 7o’clock PM, heard Kennedy’s speech about the Naval Blockade.  Any attack on any country in the Western Hemisphere would be considered an attack by the Soviets on the U.S.; U.S. would retaliate.  Ordered the missiles out, went to DEFCON 2 in Panama (DEFCON 1 = all out war, DEFCON 4 = peace)  Was at DEFCON 2 due to the possibility of Russian ships using the channel.  When put into DEFCON 2 had to trade his transmitting duties for patrolling duties.  Had a rifle and went along the canal watching ships then boarding a few to identify them; ship’s wheel given to a harbor pilot to go through the Panama Canal.  Went aboard Russian ships and Communist ships.  One time, the whole canal was shut down to allow fleets Destroyers and Cruisers to go through.  When aboard Communist ships, made sure radios were off and proper flags flying (American Flag or Flag of Origin); had Marines strategically placed to prevent “scuttling” or the sinking of ships.  Communist ships could sink themselves to block the canal.  (00:15:42)DEFCON 2 lasted a couple of months, even after the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis  At the time, people were afraid of Nuclear War, but believed it wouldn’t happen.  Confident in the President � (00:16:30)At the time, had an “Atomic Clock”, set five minutes to midnight; midnight meaning Nuclear War.  During the Cuban Missile Crisis, this clock was set one minute before midnight. o (00:17:50)U.S.S. Thresher  Transmitters were used to calibrate search gear for a Nuclear Submarine that had imploded when submerging.  Used VLF transmitter; delay of beeps helped with finding it.  Lasted about a week to find the remains of the sub.  No tension afterwards because it was a design flaw that caused the implosion, not sabotage. o General Feelings of the U.S. to Kennedy’s Assassination  (00:20:33)When Kennedy was assassinated, was put on alert once more, DEFCON Mode.  Rifle patrol and gun patrol for a while.  (00:21:05)Whenever something of significance happened, Panama Canal was put on alert due to its strategic importance.  The general feeling, in the U.S., about Kennedy’s assassination was grief. o Going Home  (00:22:36)They day after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, 1964, Heintzelman ended his first term of service.  Didn’t reenlist because he didn’t want to continue as a radioman; very critical job in the Navy, had a low retention rate. Further Military Experiences  Background o (00:23:28)Was previously denied to become a journalist in the Navy, but ten years later, went back and was given the job. o (00:23:46)During his ten years away, was a radio news reporter, then a radio news director in Grand Rapids. o Also did a little retail, anything to get by.  (00:24:23)Armed Forces Broadcast o In ’74 was given the opportunity to work for the Armed Forces Radio/Television Service o No military training. o Went Defense Information School. o Learned how to report, camera positions, video/audio tape editing. o Other places he served  Fort Harrison, Indiana.  (00:25:19)First duty station was in Japan.  Also went to: Adak, Alaska; then Keflavik, Iceland; then Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; back to Adak.  Finally wound up with a tour of duty in Germany, and then ended up in Washington, D.C.  (00:26:05)In Japan, they were building a T.V. station at a naval base in Sasabo from a broken down movie theater.  1st T.V. station, in that area, to broadcast television in English. �   There for about one year and a half. Was the Station Manager; mostly trained cadets coming from the Defense Information School. o (00:27:40)Armed Forces Television’s goal was to bring a little bit of home to the men overseas.  Also used to get out command information, replaced commercials/ o (00:29:15)Adak, Alaska was the same duties as in Japan, there for about one year.  Very isolated, nearest landmass was Siberia; very lonely. o (00:30:15)Loved his time in Japan, had an orientation/classes; cultural orientation, spoken language, manners.  (00:31:51)When in town, in Japan, did a little drinking, heck-raising, and sight-seeing; saw the Thousand Islands, went to the Nagasaki Bomb site. o Kind of weird, shadows of people burned into the sidewalks; area called Ground Zero, made into a Peace Park; felt sacred. o (00:33:44)Iceland was a tough duty (similar to Adak); no trees, hostile weather, people were very independent minded; not encouraged to go into the city. o One Air Station was restricted from going into town because it was dangerous. o There for one year. o (00:35:10)Went back to Adak where he met his wife; she was the Officer in Charge. o Navy has rules against fraternization, her superiors didn’t approve of the marriage, but she married him anyway. o (00:36:12)Spend another year in Adak. (00:36:21)Germany: Armed Forces Network, Europe o Went to Germany; became the Broadcast Manager for Armed Forces Network: Europe. o Included all sites in Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg, nothing with Italy; all of mainland Europe. o Responsibilities & Experiences  Monitored stations; had a lot of sensitivities in Europe.  One time had a woman that commented on the radio not having good Rock N’ Roll music in Austria, which nearly caused an International uproar; made her apologize on air.  In Iceland, couldn’t talk about alcohol or dogs on air.  (00:38:45)After the incident with the Austrian girl, had a Command Assist Visit in which Heintzelman and the Major made rounds and held classes on “Area Sensitivities.”  (00:39:12)Did not have this type of trouble in Japan; they didn’t like the mentioning of nuclear power and wouldn’t allow ships with nuclear power/devices in.  The U.S. Navy and Japan recently have an agreement to allow one carrier with nuclear devices in because it is being “moth-balled.”  (00:40:30)After being married, his wife resigned her commission; first child born in Germany.  His wife couldn’t attend classes with him because she was “too pregnant” to do so; no cultural orientation. �  Traveled quite a bit in Germany. (00:41:52)Talks about his father being in WWII; explains propaganda against the Japanese.  (00:43:34)Didn’t get a chance to visit his family roots, where his family is from, because of the split between West and East; did see the Berlin Wall, visited Checkpoint Charlie.  Gave a hopeless feeling.  Between the walls was white so guards, at night, could spot a target by watching silhouettes. (00:45:33)After the Service  In Germany for one year and a half  Went back to Washington, D.C.; retired from the Navy after two years.  Mainly did office work.  After retiring, went to work in Muskegon for a radio station; there for five years.  Went back to school, Grand Valley, and got his B.A. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Heintzelman, William L. (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Heintzelman, William L. Description An account of the resource Bill Heintzelman enlisted in 1961 and trained as a radioman in the Navy. He was stationed at the Panama Canal during the Cuban Missile Crisis where he patrolled aboard ships and along the canal. When Heintzelman went back into the Navy after a ten year gap between his first and second term of service, he worked as a journalist at several stations around the world. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Natte, Jeremiah (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-08-24 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HeintzelmanW Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5797bcb5b7f5c282be3d1b06bd3fd0a.m4v 79f91d81deeb5f6e432d8f39acb103d2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/167095013b2c7df20cebbfda33b28d75.pdf c8a5e8b55e164ea609fbfb9f3eda56cd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Henry Lee Helmink Length of Interview (01:32:05) Background Born in Holland, Michigan, April 15, 1924 Father and mother owned a small farm (near Virginia Park in Allendale) before losing it during The Depression An uncle bought an oil company; began distributing oil Later owned a station in Holland; eventually got out of it His father worked at many different places Once worked at a sugar beet factory Helmink would wait at the back door for his father to get off work; the engineer there would let him in to watch the steam engine work His mother took care of his siblings: five sisters (two older, three younger) and a younger brother Stayed in school through high school, Holland High Lived in the many parks near Virginia Park Remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor (00:02:40)  His mother called in Helmink and a few of his siblings and listened to the living room radio  “Day of Infamy”  Was a junior in high school, knew what he would be doing next year; his mother was upset and worried about it Wasn’t thinking about enlisting, at the time; talked with his buddy about it in school (00:3:40) Both went to enlist in the Air Corps with a travelling unit in Muskegon � If they didn’t make it into the Air Corps, would join the Navy instead; didn’t want to be “Dough Boys” Helmink passed the test, but his friend (Sonny) didn’t  Sonny was one point off on his written test; told he could come back in six months to try again  Ended up joining the Navy after one more failed attempt  Helmink didn’t see him during the war Graduated from high school in 1934 (00:04:40)  Had signed up in October of that year; was working at a job: machine shop  Tool-and-Die apprentice Was in the newspaper already that he was going to be called into duty  This was the first his boss (superintendent) heard of it; was a little upset as he had just hired Helmink Could have gotten a deferment (job dealt with bearings and engines), but his mind was already set Very interested in aircraft Had been in an airplane previously, in an open biplane  Before final approach, the pilot shut off the engines and all he could hear was the wind whistling through the guidelines  His younger brother was with him, as well Basic Training (00:07:00) Called in January 27 (1943) Went to the train depot in Detroit (met with his older sister and her family while there); headed off to Miami Beach Many of the men were from Midwest Remembers the train ride being uncomfortable (hard seats, arms made of grape-iron); made a bed out of the chairs with another guy named Caseman �The next morning, stopped at Cincinnati; had breakfast there that had been prepared at a depot (Army) Got a little rough near Georgia, lots of hills Some cars, in between the old coaches, were old mail cars with wooden stoves Would cook hot dogs over them and eat it with peaches and mashed potatoes By the time they would get back to their seats, the paper plate and food were a mess; was a fun time Wasn’t sure where they were going until a little ways; went right to Miami Beach, Florida (00:09:30) Put into a nice hotel, but it was all stripped, except a bed One fellow could play the single piano that was there Many of the men caught colds Put four to six men in a room; wooden bunk beds First part of training: marching on a golf course (00:10:25)  It was funny because many of the guys were in sports coats and white shirts: no uniforms, yet Had Puerto Rican drill sergeants; were really short, loud, snappy guys, very fun and tolerant Learned how to march in a week, good formation Also did calisthenics, running; got in good shape Many of the guys were Helminks’s age; some were married (23-26 years old) After a couple of weeks, went up to Wittenberg College in Ohio (00:12:05)  Studied calculus and some sciences, English courses � Did what one would do in one year of college  Had excellent instructors, college professors  A lot of emphasis in health, athletic instruction Originally, two years of college were required to get into the Air Corp.s, but pilots were needed There for four months; some men were there less time because of their experience and education Pre-Flight Training (00:14:00) Went by train to Santa Ana, California for pre-flight and classification  Learned meteorology, Morse code, more calisthenics, psycho-motor tests (lots of them)  Tests included: depth perception, reaction time, etc.; remembers a particular test with a phonograph (00:14:30)  Air craft identification; given only 1/5 of a sec to recognize an aircraft (all the German and Japanese aircraft) Being prepared for actual flying and combat conditions; learned things that became secondnature, “be part of the airplane,” reflexes Classification Center: given a sheet to sign up for a certain job (didn’t always get that job); Helmink chose to be a pilot (00:16:05) Even went to night classes for Morse code Given a note on their sacks; Helmink became a pilot; some men were navigation or bombardiers  Needed to be commissioned for these designations  Some washed out, didn’t hear of them afterwards (some end up as engineers, etc.) Flight Training (00:18:00) There for 17 weeks Hadn’t gone home; finished pre-flight Started flight training; Tucson, Arizona, Ryan’s School of Aeronautics (private field, west of Tucson) Plane developed from a racing plane, BT-12’s (low-wing, open cockpit) Six men assigned to an instructor; J.N. Taylor, civilian instructor �Remembers the first time he flew in the plane (00:19:20)  Had one square mile of black top; going in triangle formation  Had to signal in order to communicate to the pilot (instructor)  Thought that he wasn’t going to get sick; instantaneously after that thought, Helmink became sick  Had to clean the plane after landing o Very common occurrence; had a friend who got sick every time o Friend had gotten through due to his grades in high school Helmink really enjoyed the training; had fabulous ground instructors (00:21:37)  Fly during the morning, ground training in the afternoon (calisthenics)  Reverse every other day  All instructors were enthusiastic and knowledgeable Read manuals usually after supper, had much to study; would talk with the other cadets Next was basic flight training with the Low Wing Ball T: big canopy, two pilots, bigger plane (00:22:40)  A flight inspector came in, gave instructor the permission to show the plane  Very low belly, “basement;” had runners as the floor; had many instruments  Learned to use the instruments, night flying, cross-country, formations  Eventually flew solo  In Bakersfield, California; Minter’s Field (non-civilian airport); all pilots Army Air Corp.  A lot more military approach, like military school In Tucson and Santa Ana, didn’t go off base much (L.A.) (00:24:55) Advance Flight Training (00:25:40) Early February ’44; Advanced Flight Training; Douglas, Arizona (south of Tucson) �Learned to fly twin-engine airplane; Cessna UC-78, “Bamboo Bomber”  Made of metal tubing with canopy covering; good planes  More instrument and cross-country flying  Instrument tests, required once a year A squadron leader (Captain Renny) tested him; flew in an AT-9  AT-9: engines ahead of the cockpit, very streamline, all metal Passed the test, given a white card, “released from instrument flying”  The only time he flew that plane Helmink never got in an accident (00:28:00) UC-78 landing gear, after being tucked in, sticks out about half a wheel Can always hear communication between the tower and the crew (to get everyone used to the lingo) over a com Heard over the com that a plane was having trouble with their landing gear (jammed) Everyone could see what was going on On that particular plane had to crank the lever many times to pull in the landing gear (crank 1300 times) Some planes had wooden propellers and others steel; this particular plane had wooden or “twin-bested cubs” Had to glide all the way down; turned off the engine and leveled it off with the starters, propellers horizontal; instructor had managed to land the plane without a scratch Assignments (00:30:00) Assigned to a combat unit after advanced flight training Had a large graduation class (500 students); in a large auditorium where assignments were being handed out Some men were lucky to get B-25 planes; B-25’s better to fly than B-17’s Transition school: learned to fly that plane �Some men were held back to be instructors for B-25’s; had never flown one before Helmink was going to be assigned this with seven other men, but Helmink’s name was then called over the com Handed new orders to go to Louisville, Kentucky (00:31:45)  Troop-Tick Carrier Command  Got to go home for the first time; delay in route (went back to Holland)  Remembers a woman behind him saying, “I wonder why that guy isn’t over in the war fightin’.” Laughed about it Went back to Louisville had different orders Syracuse, New York (00:33:00) Had DC-3’s there or C-47’s; learned to fly them; transition  1,000 horsepower engines, weighed about 35,000lbs. (loaded)  Started to learned low level flying; flew over Lake Placid  Being trained to fly in Burma (didn’t know this at the time)  Dropping logs over clearings, “bundle dropping”  Would hope to hit a target on the ground  Night flying, formation, single engine A lot of hills there, “lawn-mowing” There for a couple of months Orders back to Louisville, Kentucky (00:34:50) Three plants producing C-46’s there (Stannerford), Helmink was going to fly them Tested out by six test pilots for the C-46’s; quite a few hours of flying with them to be checked out C-46 vs. C-47 (planes rated by horsepower)  C-46 had two Pratt-Whitney Engines with 2000 horsepower each � C-47 had only 1050 horsepower engines  C-46, fully loaded, weighed 50,000lbs; could carry 10,000-12,000lbs.  C-47 could carry only 6,000-7,000lbs.  109ft. wingspans  Built well, reliable engines Already in the service for two years, didn’t think that the war would end before they finished training (00:36:25) Fourth Combat Cargo Group formed when Helmink arrived in New York  Four squadrons (13th, 14th, 15th, 16th)  Put in the 14th Squadron  Ended up in Louisville to finish training Picked up 100 new planes in Fort Wayne, Indiana; Army Air Force Base Got a brand new C-46 with only four hours on it Went to Florida Had a co-pilot, radio operator, crew chief (very important, stayed with the plane)  Would get used to certain people and ask for them to be assigned to the plane  Before Fort Wayne, had a guy picked out for crew chief  The crew chief then had someone picked out for radio operator  Never knew who would be co-pilot, varied often o Co-pilot would sometimes take over pilot duties Spent three days at West Palm Beach (00:38:40)  Learned how to ditch; getting out life rafts, etc. � Had the whole crew training, even the ground crew (18 people) The crew sat in seats that were on the side; removed the seats when arriving overseas  Never had any paratroopers, so didn’t put the seats back in Had to get creative: would make bunks from what they had; pile bags, etc. Karachi, India After the third day of training, took off to Puerto Rico (00:39:50) Had a sealed letter that they could open one hour into the flight, their orders Being sent to Karachi, India  Puerto Rico, flew down to the West Indies  Flew west to Brazil (Belem), landed; passed the equator and the Amazon mouth  Spent a night in each place  Natal, Brazil, spent an extra day there; 25 hour inspection o Crew chief and ground crew very busy o Went into the town, a lot of jungle  Flew to Ascension Island in the middle of the Atlantic o Did all their own navigation; navigator used a sextant when flying to the island o C-47 had a bubble over the top, so the navigator could use the sun o Would chart a heading often, did an arc of 40 miles to reach the island  Had another plane following them, didn’t have a navigator of their own  From Ascension Island to Accra, Ghana (Gold Coast at the time); the navigator finally got to sleep (only did ocean hops, sent back to US when arriving in Karachi)  Flew across South Central Sahara, stayed there for a night  From there to Khartoum, Sudan �o People in Accra were much darker than the people in South Central Sahara, more Arabian  Flew around Aden (southern Arabia); couldn’t fly through it because of the danger of headhunters  Arrived at Karachi; Thanksgiving Day, 1944  Total of 13 days flying Wasn’t feeling tired, was an adventure; everything was a big adventure for him (00:44:45)  Didn’t have as many connections to worry about as other men did Got a full-fledged turkey dinner when they arrived on base, excellent meal Took off after being fuel up and flew to Selet, India  Northeast corner of India, near the foothills of the Himalayas, next to Burma Army Corp. of Engineers had set up a camp with revetments (a large circular wall on top of black top) for the planes; protection from bombings Called it “Skunk Hollow;” had a lot of hills and strange trees, a lot of wildlife, too  Tigers, monkeys, panthers, snakes, mongooses  Had cement-floor buildings with bamboo structures with thatch roofs; had excellent carpenters There for a week, then went back to Karachi (00:48:10) Flew a couple flights out of Selet; Imphal, where Merrill’s Marauders had established an area after fighting of the Japanese  Engineers had started to put down landing strips  Carrying supplies Went back to Karachi; assigned to a British airbase (00:48:50) Testing gliders; wooden gliders on C-46’s � Looks like a B-26: round fuselage, high mid-wing, tricycle gear; everything glued together  Loaded the glider with 9000lbs. of lead shot in little bags; would attach to Helmink’s plane  Made nine tows  A pedestal was bolted down to the back; engines had wire sensors on each spark plug to check temperature, etc.  The glider cuts loose on its own Got to fly in the glider once, had an Australian test-pilot who usually flew it (00:50:25) Were being towed behind a Halifax 4-engine Bomber; quite a scary ride Remembers the rope being let go (nylon rope, very stretchy); pilot let the spoilers loose and they began to drop rapidly; aiming to land in the south corner of the field Landed in the dirt and stopped after rolling for 250ft; amazing Very effective for Europe during D-Day Had excellent living conditions; barracks, large dining hall (Indian food), an officer’s club; preferred to eat at a Chinese restaurant (00:53:05) There for about a month; went back to India, south of Selet, on the Indian-Burmese border  Called Argitella  Made a flew flights from there to Burma  P-38’s stationed there, one of the guys had a beautiful dragon painted on the side of his Chittagong (00:55:05) Shortly after that flew to a place called Chittagong; rest of his flight out of there Did a lot of cargo transportation; describes his flights to Bhamo Burma was all jungle; the British would make sure to make level landing fields (bulldoze and cut the jungle down) Had to be careful with ammunition; would fly over a range of mountains they called the “Little Hump” and make sure they didn’t get tail heavy �Had to land on the dirt landing strips; Mandalay had a landing strip laid with red bricks  British had extended it with tarpaper  Japanese had 105mm canons, always out of range (British also had the same guns) Had good facilities in Chittagong; floors were woven bamboo instead of cement (00:58:35) Very hot and humid climate Took shots for malaria; atabrine in the water  Side effects: skin would begin turning yellow Food wasn’t very good; limited memories of eating there  “Milk runs” There for six months; about 480 missions (four times a day) (01:01:25) Didn’t assist in loading and unloading; would watch to make sure they didn’t load too much  One time, was loading thin sheets of iron; the tires on his plane were close to blowing, had to stop them; was going to be a tough flight  Very close call with lifting; asked for the whole strip when landing One fellow had a fire in one of his engines, burned through the wing; lost the whole crew in the crash (01:05:00) Didn’t lose very many planes Total of 100 planes, had 85 crews in the air everyday; other 15 for maintenance, etc. Had the same plane for six months Went up to Myitkyina where they ran a 24 hour clock; could be scheduled to go out at 2AM Landed in a number of fields around Kunming, China The weather was atrocious there, monsoon season  Would take the southern root over the mountains and north going back � “Saddlebacks” o Extreme updrafts and downdrafts that lasted about 5-8 minutes worth of flight o Large buildup of ice on the leads o Lightening, static First time Helmink flew this flight, he was a pilot; met another pilot from Holland, Michigan, Bud Van Lier (01:10:25)  Gave pointers to Helmink; 17,000ft. peak It was scary every time he flew through the rough weather; “scud weather” (01:11:40) Had good fields in Kunming; started with thousands of people carrying large rocks that decreased in size, put sand over it and flattened it Never stayed overnight in Kunming Usually carried 21 barrels of 100-octane gas; aviation fuel, stockpiled Communists were beginning to fight; planning to bomb, heard the sirens going off and they would get out of there as quick as possible (Kunming) Didn’t see any of the American Combat Air Forces (01:14:00)  Protected overhead by British Hurricane fighters; would fly 33,000ft overhead  Had a radio tuned specifically to them  Never saw any Japanese planes except for one time at night Moving Gurkha troops from one field to another; secret night-mission Would turn on their landing lights on as they landed, line up with the person with a weapons carrier’s light Helmink was flying 40,000ft and a plane below him was calling in when the airfield was lit up with explosions The fellow flying below him was a Betty Bomber (a Japanese bomber) which is the same size as a C-47 Had dropped anti-personnel bombs �The Japanese bomber pilot spoke perfect English, couldn’t tell Had formation lights to identify planes (blue color) Had a close call in Chittagong with a runaway propeller (01:17:40)  Curtiss Electric Propellers: four-bladed, 14ft. diameter, pitch controlled electrically  Sometimes the propellers would go into really high pitch; over speed  Was taking off nicely, when he was suddenly turning because of the high pitch  Had to hit the toggle switch to stop it  Was having a hard time stopping, ran into the mud of the unfinished airfield November 1945, Helmink and his squadron were being taken back to Chabwa (India) (01:19:40)  Had blown up the planes instead of taking them back  150lb bombs Arrived in Chabwa in the afternoon; next morning go on a DC-4 (4-engine passenger airplane) and flown to Karachi Put on a general-class troop ship; first day to see Mt. Everest Took about 28 days to make it back; went through the Suez Canal Ran into a North Atlantic storm, 40ft. waves; very harrowing Arrived in New York Harbor on Christmas Eve Taken over to Fort Dix where they got rid of their foot lockers and bags Took a cab to Times Square with some guys and ate three meals that night (couldn’t eat any of the good food on the ship due to the weather)  Once hit a monster wave that made them loose control of the gutter; could hear all of the dishes come crashing down in the galley  Heard of a troop ship leaving from South Hampton turned back after losing six sailors Next day, reported to Fort Dix (01:24:45) � Went to Camp Atterbury, Indiana, by train Arrived home on New Year’s Day; remembers coming into Holland Station His folks and girlfriend knew he was coming back Remembers thinking how everything was like a dream when seeing a crossroads of railroads Got a job in GM, tool-and-die Felt like he didn’t change much; talked with a lot of the other guys about what they were going to do afterward (01:26:35)  Helmink seriously considered staying in the Air Corp. so he could fly more planes  Got offers from 25 different airlines to fly; other pilots spoke of troubles with being furloughed  Got a letter about joining TWA; took some tests; said he would be hired and have a seat in six months o Had to move if he wanted the job; had to speak to his wife o She didn’t want to go anywhere  Given more offers for corporate flying  Got to fly some jets over the years; flew all the time  Flown, at least, 28 different planes � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Helmink, Henry Lee (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Helmink, Henry Lee Description An account of the resource Henry Lee Helmink of Holland, Michigan, enlisted in 1943 and served during World War II as a pilot in the Army Air Corps. He flew C-46 and C-47 transport aircraft between bases in Burma, India and China, and would drop supplies to troops in the field. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-04-15 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HelminkHL Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b93df45f49e67016c8c33eb84af1fbd7.m4v 76facd1033edb1c2f24d695ee6f09459 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4cd93827bbd5518489d73ba695da3a67.pdf 5aff5e1824b7cc5aadf8febcb9e2c121 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Dale Hemphill Length: 18:47 (00:05) Background Information     Dale was born in Michigan in 1942 and grew up in Niles, MI His parents got divorced when he was 8 years old and he stayed with his father until he was 10 years old He then moved to Indiana with his mother and enlisted in the Navy in 1960 He signed on for 3 years of active duty and 3 years in the Reserves (2:05) Training  Dale was sent to San Diego, California for boot camp where he became part of the drill team and had a great time  He was then sent to a different base in California where he worked as an aviation store keeper (5:10) Alaska  Dale was sent to Alaska where he went through typing courses and later began administrative work  He was also operating heavy duty equipment, and tracking flight information  Dale felt that he was pretty lucky because he never got sent to Vietnam  His whole time in the Navy he was never actually stationed on a ship (10:00) After Service  Dale now designs clothes and other merchandise that show pride in America  He is friends with the man who designed the current version of the American flag  Dale receives many flags from service men overseas that they have signed for him  He has been working on the flag project since 1979, titled Flags Across America  Dale also has his own non-profit organization called Spirit of America  He often speaks at conventions, American Legion, takes part in parades and other clubs for veterans � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hemphill, Dale (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hemphill, Dale Description An account of the resource Dale Hemphill was born in Michigan in 1942 and later moved to Indiana with his mother when he was 10 years old. In 1960 he enlisted in the Navy for 3 years of active duty and 3 years in the Reserves. Dale went through boot camp in San Diego, California and was then stationed in California and later Alaska. After his time in the service he began working on a project called Flags Across America n 1979. He also started a non-profit organization called Spirit of America and he often travels around the country working on his project and organization. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bodnar, Christine (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-10 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HemphillD Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives