423 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bdc7e461c0a1da099ad96f7c72014b16.mp4 33ecec5eb0b6e73a7f3117905bf3d795 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b10d692d6202fb160f2d3b77b2a7591a.pdf 6cff390439c80e53f8902f988fe172e9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Jasper “J. J.” Harrington Date of Interview: 06-10-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] FRANK BORING: Kunming going back to Rangoon to relieve the 3rd Squadron that had seen some battle. J. J. HARRINGTON: 2nd and 3rd. FRANK BORING: Right. And when you arrived. You arrived in the thick of battles. There was battles going on there was fighting going on when you finally got over there. I wonder if you could from your perspective on the ground describe the bombing and the effects on you. J. J. HARRINGTON: We had left Kunming - I don't recall the actual date - to go to Rangoon to relieve the 2nd and 3rd Squadron they were pretty well worn out so was the airplanes at the time. So the 1st Squadron went down to Rangoon and then relieved the 2nd and 3rd Squadrons which they located back to Kunming. As we left to go Rangoon. We flew Chinese National Airways into Lashio and then they wouldn't fly any further down towards Rangoon than that. Then we got on this train at Lashio and then see sawed down the mountain and then 'til we got level land territory and then went on down to Rangoon and we didn't have any problem I mean with the Japanese on the way down. We made that all right and then it was a matter of some place for us to stay and get bedded down. And we could not leave the airplanes on the airdrome there at �Mingaladon because the Japanese would come over and bomb it every night. And so the P-40's came in after we got settled down and we found some place where we could have them and be convenient for the pilots during the day time and then try to find some place at night I mean so that we could get them off of the field and park them somewhere. After we got down then we saw some formations of Japanese airplanes coming over. I mean they come over in the morning and then before noon and then get all the P-40's up and they would take up after them. Most of the time late in the afternoon they come over with another formation of bombers. Sometimes they would be bombers sometimes they would be fighters and bombers. They first started off coming over bombers and then the bombers couldn't outrun the P-40's so then they starting bringing a formation of fighters and bombers They only thing that when the bombers dropped their bombs well then they would take off and they could outrun I97 escort that they had. The P-40's would leave the I-97's sitting back there and take off start shooting down the bombers again. And then they at times they have nothing but fighters and there would be circling over the field, by gosh, I don't know the numbers there were a lot of them, but just fighters. And then the P-40's would climb up and get above them and then come down thru them I mean in a dive and I mean there ain't no way you gonna catch a P40 if you put it in a dive. So all the tactics that the Japanese came up with I mean the Flying Tigers they counteracted with something else to minimize the efforts of the Japanese have gone to. And this went for day in and day out. At night when we couldn't fly at night we didn't have no landing light, well, we didn't have no landing lights. They absolutely didn't have any lights on the field I mean that were permitted. And I mean by the same token it was too dangerous because the Japanese gonna be over there and bomb you when you gone in. So what we would do the crew chiefs would get P-40's and taxi them off the field and up a road I mean and in behind some house or under a tree �somewhere and then we would go off the base where we had a place to sleep out in the jungles I mean and that's where we set up a little housekeeping out there and the mess officer that we had I mean he fixed it up and we had meals out there I mean the evening. So then we would get up before daylight the next morning and get back down and then the crew chiefs would go out and get the airplane and taxi it back of the field. One of the reasons we taxied those airplanes off of the field in the evening and back on to the field in the morning is to save the pilots the effort to going out there and getting the gad blame airplanes. There was no use of them to go to the trouble of going out there and getting the airplane and taxing it off. I mean and I was always under the impression that if a guy going to be a mechanic on a darn airplane I mean he can sure taxi it back and forth on the ground. He ain't no pilot gad blame but he can taxi it around I mean for maintenance purpose. So anyway we did that and then later the Japanese got to bombing so much around there until they found a dispersal area that the pilots could fly the P40's out to a dispersal area quite a little ways from the airport and then have transportation pick them up out there. But during this period of time they had some British airplanes down there the Hurricanes. In the evening when they would get ready to take to get their airplanes off the field they had to I felt for those British ground personnel they had to push the gad blame airplane off of the field and they had to push it up a hill pretty steep hill to get off of the field. I'd be taxing an airplane off and they be pushing a Hurricane up and there would be maybe 10 or 12 of them trying to push this gad blame airplane up and I couldn't wait on them so I just go ahead and give it throttle and I guess just dust them off good and I'd go apologize to the British ground personnel, but I said believe me there should be a better way for you all to do that, but unfortunately we don't time to stand behind you. Well, they understood what we were talking about but that was one thing that differed from the way the British did and we did We �tried to work together with the pilots and the pilots I don't know why they required them to do that I'll never know. But why we were down there we had everybody had a jeep. We lived quite a ways off base at night and the British had actually pulled most of the stuff out and only an insane asylum I mean and just let the people out. I know one morning I was heading down to the strip and I saw this white sheet sort of we had these black out lights on the jeep so you couldn't see very well. I got up pretty close and we found out it was one of people out of the insane asylum down there that they had just turned loose. I mean I thought that was pretty brutal type things. The guards on the gates, they had gates there, with a guard on it as you were going into the airport at Minagladon and we'd go in wide open with the jeep by gosh and holler AVG and just keep going. Well, once in a while they would get a new guard on the gate and nobody told him this was a signal and password that we was supposed to use. I had been going in the gate and hollering AVG and all I'd hear was Halt and I just kept going and don't make no difference how much noise that jeep is making when that bolt slammed that cartridge in the chamber the guard has got you can hear that by gosh and then you start putting on brakes. Then I get across to him who I was and wanted to get in there and go to work. Meantime I'd look up that head of the guard out there and said by gosh let's get this password bit straighten out before somebody gets shot. By anyway they did and natives over there were just as nice by gosh and they could possibly be. Now the British had a little problem with the natives off and on at times, but so far as I know we never had any problems with them. FRANK BORING: Let's go back just a little bit to the bombing itself. The bombing and the strafing which the Japanese did on you. Give us from your personal perspective what happened when they came over. What you needed to do to protect the airplanes, slit trenches, whatever it is. We do it from your �point of view. What it was like on the ground to get strafed and bombed. J. J. HARRINGTON: After we arrived at Rangoon and then actually started into combat had the [?] and the Japanese were going to come over in the morning. They was going to come over wave in the afternoon and then they were going to come over again at night. Well, there's no going to be anybody on that airdrome I mean at night if we could help it the airplanes or anything else. But during the day time they would come over in a formation of bombers and if they had a fighter escort I mean the fighters would be there a long with them. What we would do and we didn't have very many people, we had about 8 or 9 mechanics at most that we had down anyway. Well, we had already picked out a place where we could find a place by gosh. You had to get a hole deep enough that you could get your head down below the surface. Because they started off dropping demolition bombs and you can have a demolition bomb drop as far from here to that wall and it won't bother you a bit it you just lay down on the ground. I mean because it goes up at an angle. But then they started dropping these frag bomb now they would just go parallel to the ground and that's the reason you had to get your head down under the something deep enough so you could get your head down below the surface of the ground. It was difficult and you knows that it was going to happen I mean then by the same token I mean I don't know of anybody that there was panic I mean that type bomb. And they'd do the same thing with strafing. I mean with the fighters. And so you got down where you could hid your head I mean down below the surface of the ground and then you are relatively safe I mean that. Just like when they started dropping those frag bombs, well, you knew that you had to get your head down below the surface, by gosh, because they were going out horizontal to the ground anyway. We didn't have anybody get killed there with any of the bombs or the strafing either one that was going on but the �British did lose some people. It turned out to be more of a big game type situation except that it was for real, by gosh, but we had to be there when the airplanes came back in I mean, because we couldn't be lost somewhere get in a jeep and just hide somewhere. You can't do that. You have to be there where you could see the airport. So we just tolerated that and in our squadron we didn't have anybody get killed by strafing or by bombs dropping. They come real close I mean but that was it. It was not desirable that was for sure I mean but then by the same token I mean you got to do a little something on your own I mean try to prevent this sort of stuff from happening. FRANK BORING: Give us an idea of the bombers or the fighters came over. The Tigers are already up in the sky ready for them to battle-- the battle happens. The Tigers either run out of ammunition or gasoline or whatever, they land. The battle still going on what is it that you had to do at that point. J. J. HARRINGTON: Well, now when airplanes at Rangoon were in the air in combat and we were setting down on the ground around the strip down there if a P40 run out of gas or had some problem there's no way that he could land on the airport there at Rangoon. He had to land at an auxiliary place away from all the bombing and strafing that’s going on. Lot of time we had to go out to the one of these dispersal areas and either take them some gas out there or go out and fixed whatever maintenance problem that this pilot had, but it would have been suicide to try to land there with the bombers and the fighters going on at the same time. FRANK BORING: You had mentioned about the British there. I wonder if you could give us an idea of the way that you did business in the AVG did you work, your standard routine type of maintenance work and the way the British did. I mean in your interview you guys didn't take time out for tea. �J. J. HARRINGTON: Actually while I was at Rangoon we worked fairly close with the British. I mean in a lot of respects they had their own airplanes, and primarily the Hurricanes, they did have Buffalos to start off with then they tried to dogfight with the Japanese and they lost all of those. But basically maintenance of airplanes is basically the same - the way we doing it, the way the British are doing it. Except the concept is a little bit different and the procedures just like I mentioned except for letting the British taxi their Hurricanes off the base, by gosh, well then they had to push them off. But one big difference that the British had which was an advantage over us they were getting spare parts I mean thru their system which we were not. And that was a big, big plus for them. We got along beautiful with the British, I mean they charged our batteries for us they filled our oxygen bottles. They were just real accommodating. We had one Canadian crew that operated gas trucks for us and then after we went back into China they followed us all the way back to China. We got along well with British ground troops as far as I knew they got along well with the pilots British Air Force. I don't have any quarrel at all with them. With the exception of one thing the latter part of the time when we were down at Rangoon we were not worried about the air force I mean cause as I said before we could get in a hole under a sewer pipe anything I mean as long as we could get out of the way, but the ground troops just kept moving slowly from Thailand toward Rangoon and [?] Bay. Now Bob Neale and the pilots were flying [?] reports for the British ground troops with the P40B with two 50's and 4 30's doing what they could and they were working close together with the British and everything that they did. But anyway, one morning I had to go I needed an oxygen bottle, battery or something, I forget what. So I went over, got I the jeep went charging over to [?] and everything was sort of scattered around sort of helter skelter, and I couldn't find a soul not a darn soul, normally there was somebody over there �working. But anyway, I found a battery that was charged and I picked it up and put it my jeep and went over and put it in the airplane. Then I went down and looked up Bob Neale. I said Bob do those British tell you that they were going to move out last night? Nope, he hadn't heard nothing about it. I said they did and there ain't nobody down there but us by gosh. Anyway, he got on the radio and called Chennault which Chennault was in Kunming of course and Bob told him the situation and said that they had all move out of Rangoon and we were down there with about 9 airplanes, 9 P-40's at the time. And one thing speaking of Chennault I can inject this some of it here, that selected these squadron leaders I mean based on their capability and he had some good ones. Chennault had confidence in them. And Chennault was the type leader that he would not dictate what these squadron leaders did and the decisions that they made and him up and Kunming and like Bob Neale down at Rangoon. So Chennault told Bob well, if I don't know the situation up here you down there and you do know the situation. Just use your own good judgment I mean as to when you leave Rangoon and evacuate. Well, that put a load on Bob's shoulders, but it also relieve him too, by gosh, that's the way Chennault operated. I mean he left it up to the people, he didn't try to make decisions I mean unless he knew the facts. So he left it up to them and we probably stayed down in Rangoon a little longer than we would have if Chennault would have been involved in it. But nobody was involved and when we left out of there except Bob Neale. And we stayed on down there until Japanese ground troops. When they come to the Martaban [?] Bay well of course that’s the offshoot of the Salween River so they just turned and went up ground troops went up the Salween River and then about 50 miles and then cut across the Salween River and were still heading west. And after they got about half way across Burma well then decided that that is about time for us. Because we couldn't come up the Burma Road that was primary route to get vehicles what �we had and gas trucks and what ammunition we had up that road. So anyway decided to go ahead and evacuate, Bob did, and I started taking some [?] convoys, two or three trucks at a time that night and going around the Japanese ground troops. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Harrington_JJ_1991-06-10_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrington, Jasper J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-10 Title A name given to the resource J. J. Harrington interview (video and transcript, 6 of 14), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of J. J. Harrington by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Harrington served in the AVG as Line Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." After experiencing some confusion with his recruitment for AVG and discharge from the U.S. Army Air Forces, he traveled to Rangoon, Burma where he was met by Col. Chennault. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Kunming, China. In this tape, Harrington discusses his journey back to Rangoon during a time of battle with Japan and the bombing and strafing that was taking place there. He also describes his experience working with the British during those times and how their maintenance work compared with their own. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f1ec272e8c8fd80c3b95b837d773e9a.mp4 f276aae3ebb6cfc98ded86f1bf938e01 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/27e7374a68f337c62685c38db67762a2.pdf 1cf86adb853c9248c1e28032abbebb78 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Jasper “J. J.” Harrington Date of Interview: 06-10-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] J. J. HARRINGTON: During the time we were at Rangoon and just prior to the time that we left for Kunming, the British had pulled out and left us a couple of days before and Bob Neale had got in touch with General Chennault as to what he should do, since the British had pulled out their troops and Chennault told Bob Neale "Well you're down there and you know the situation a lot better than I do and so you just use your own good judgment - I mean you should pull out if the ground troops get too close." And I repeat again that was one of the reasons that Chennault in my opinion was such a good leader. He selected good people and put them in responsible positions, but then by the same token he gave them the responsibility to make decisions on their own. He did not hinder them - I mean - I'll put you in a responsible position, but I'll reserve the right to make a decision. Once he put them in responsible positions, they had the authority to make decisions within the capability of the assignment they had and that was one of the things I thought that Chennault - he was a brilliant individual in doing that. So many people will not do that. During the raid that we had - and that was after the British had left - our entire squadron of about 8 planes took off and went on a raid and everybody came back except Bob Neale and we didn't see another P-40 or hear another one and I think it was Charlie Bond, one of the other pilots said the last time he saw Bob Neale he was down on the deck heading out to sea with an I- �97 on his tail and that is not the most attractive position for a P-40 to be in, because if he's down on the deck flying straight and level he just does not have enough power to pick up a lot of speed from anything. But also this I-97 that was on his tail, he did not have enough power, so if he could go outside and start shooting from the side and you had to shoot straight in from the tail, then he couldn't overtake Bob Neale either. So as a result, the I-97 broke off for some reason, he either ran out of ammunition or he'd run out gas and then Bob Neale come on him and we heard this roar of his P-40 coming in and it had to be Bob Neale because everybody was accounted for except him. So he came buzzing over the field and rolling over and then he let his gear down to come in for a landing and of course I had my jeep and was watching him and I knew that the planes were pretty well filed up by gosh because even before he touched ground I could see fabric flying on the ailerons and the horizontal stabilizer - I mean the rudder really and they had fabric made out of those and they later made them out of metal. But these were all fabric, the ailerons and the elevators and the rudder. And they had all kind of strange flapping and then when he touched down, why I noticed that by gosh both landing gear - wheels were flat - I mean the tires were flat, had been shot up. But Bob Neale was the type pilot that by gosh that you didn't see any swerving or anything, he was a smooth pilot, he set the thing down and rolled down the runway just real straight and of course I was behind him in my jeep and come to a stop. So I drove up there and stopped and got out and jumped up on the wing and usually when Bob would come back from a mission, he had a lot of nervous tension. When he was in a situation of combat or any type situation, you couldn't tell if he was nervous - his nerves didn't bother him any at all - but usually when he'd come back from a mission, I'd jump up on the wing and help him off with the chute and he'd sit there and he'd be fussin' and cussin' and everything else - a pretty foul-mouthed individual anyway, but this time when he came �in, I jumped up on the wing and when I got to the airplane I could see holes all in that P-40. So anyway I jumped up on the wing and helped him off with his parachute, of course Bob was cussin' Japs and just carrying on a narrated type fussin' campaign. Then he said "These Japs they can't hit the side of a red barn" and he punctuated that with a bunch of profanity too. I didn't even open my mouth and he kept talking about they couldn't hit anything. So I got him in the jeep and I still hadn't said one word to Bob and I never did. So I got him in the jeep and carried him over where the pilots had a little ready room so he could get some coffee or a little something to eat. So then I just dropped him off and went on back out to the airplane and I still didn't say nothing to him. So I was working on the airplane for a couple of hours. I figured he'd sort of settle down by then so I went back over to the little ready shack and told Bob I says "How about getting in the jeep and I want to take you out and show you something." "Where in the devil are you going to take me" growling at me and I said "Well just hush growling and get in the jeep and I'll show you." So he got in the jeep and I rode him out to his airplane and I told Bob - I said "Well Bob, you know these Japs might not be able to hit a red barn, but they sure know how to hit a P-40 by gosh." We counted 74 holes in that P-40. But as I say this Japanese - this I-97 being right on the tail of the P-40 and the bullets had to go straight into the tail - and the tail and the metal parts that the bullet had to go through - and they were 303 bullets - they were not 30 caliber bullets. But they didn't have any 50 caliber bullets on those airplanes and so they'd spin a little bit going through the tail section and the metal back there and then you had all the communications gear sitting back there and then in front of that you had a self-sealing fuel tank that this bullet had to go through and then a little bit further back you had the armor plate right behind Bob Neale. Well all that metal and the interference that this bullet had getting in, it wouldn't go past there to get into fuel lines, hydraulic lines, that would be �buried in the cockpit. So apparently the Japanese that were in this I-97 either just completely run out of ammunition or just run out of gas and broke off. Then when it did, why then Bob could go ahead and break off. But Bob could not break off from that Japanese and give him a side shot from that P-40. But anyway he came screaming in and the only damage that was done to that airplane - see one reason was - well it was difficult in a way - but if we could have had spare parts it would not have been difficult. Now the damage to that airplane and that was 74 holes in it, all we had to do was replace the control surfaces, the elevators, ailerons and the rudder and then we had to replace the communication equipment, it was tore up when the bullets went in there and it had about 6 or 7 dents right in behind the armor plate, but the bullet was almost spent and all it did was make a dent in the armor plate. So then we had to replace the fuel tank and other than that the airplane was ready to go. The whole thing while we were over there was the fact that the parts had us stymied from actually doing a better job than we did, it would have been a lot better. But anyway it was a good thing that Bob got out of that one. But there's reasons why he got out of it which I've just explained, with the type bullets they were using in the I-97's and the obstacles it had to go through. FRANK BORING: Why do you think you were not being provided with equipment and spare parts? J. J. HARRINGTON: One of the things that I feel in my own mind that we were not provided spare parts and support from the hierarchy, I mean back in the United States, the War Dept. specifically, is the fact that they had fought so hard to prohibit and prevent Chennault from getting any American products, both material and personnel. (break) �J. J. HARRINGTON: The Army and the War Dept. had fought so hard against giving anything to Chennault for operations in China and they went to President Roosevelt and they were dead set against giving him anything and President Roosevelt overrode the recommendations of the War Dept. and the military hierarchy and did go along with Chennault and was recorded before the spring of 1941, that President Roosevelt did issue an executive order over and above the objections of the military to permit the recruit, enlistment and discharge of people for the purpose of going over there. My feeling that the reason they never did give us any support is the fact that they'd made a prediction to not only President Roosevelt, but everybody that would listen, that they absolutely cannot fight a war, under the conditions and circumstances for which they were trying to get airplanes and people. You're taking 100 airplanes over there and putting them in combat, that they would not last a week and then they would be gone. Since we stayed more than a week in combat with all 3 squadrons, I still believe that the War Dept. and the military power, if you decide to still keep supplies from going to China for the support of the Flying Tigers, is the fact that if you cut off the supplies sooner or later they're gonna dry up anyway and then we will be right. The time phased sequence might be a little bit off but at least we will have been right in our assessment. I still believe that was primarily the cause because General Chennault did not get along with them when he was on active duty and that goes back quite a ways further because General Arnold was the chief of the Army Air Corps at the time and him and Chennault never got along when he was a Captain with his air tactics. Now General Arnold I think was a good Air Corps officer, but he was a student of Billy Mitchell and Billy Mitchell was a bomber pilot, but now Chennault was a pursuit pilot and there's a heck of a lot of difference in a pursuit pilot and a bomber pilot. Billy Mitchell showed the Navy that he could sink battle ships out in the ocean with aircraft, but by the same token Chennault was trying to show �them that they needed pursuit aviation to protect these bombers, which they never did get through their heads. FRANK BORING: Let's this Bob Neale thing first and then we'll go on to… J. J. HARRINGTON: Actually during our entire operation over there - as far as Bob Neale being the Squadron Leader, I've never had any more respect for a military officer or a pilot or even a man himself, than I have Bob Neale. He was one of the most courageous pilots I've ever known. The airplane that we had - of course we tried to give all the pilots an air worthy aircraft to fly. We didn't do a lot of window dressing and stuff like that on these airplanes because we left it go, but as far as the safety of flight items we did correct the safety of flight items before we would release an airplane to go. But all the Flying Tiger pilots were eager pilots and if you did not have an airplane ready for them when the raid came over, why then they were growling at you. Well I told them they could go ahead and growl at us if they wanted to, but we were going to try to give them the best that we could and then they could have a better chance to do what they were going to do. But then Bob Neale flew this #7 all the time, that was his airplane and I took special care of Bob Neale's #7 airplane. But then at times I had problems with that airplane that I didn't know whether I was gonna get it fixed before the next raid came or not by golly. I figured that Bob Neale was a little partial to #7 anyway and I sort of dreamed up a little plan of what I would do if I couldn't get that #7 ready for Bob Neale and had an air raid. I'd just get a bucket of paint with a paintbrush and paint out #7 and go paint #7 on another airplane and Bob came running down to the airplane and I started hollering at him "Well Bob you airplane's not parked where it usually is, it's over here" and let him have it. But the occasion, thanks to the good Lord, the occasion never did come up where I had to use that tactic, but I would have. �FRANK BORING: You walked up to the wreckage and saw the aircraft, was that correct, this was in Rangoon? J. J. HARRINGTON: Well, I'm not sure exactly what you have there. FRANK BORING: Now you actually witnessed what they could do, could you give us an evaluation how they changed your opinion? J. J. HARRINGTON: While we were still at Rangoon involved in combat, just the First Squadron against what we felt like was primarily the entire Japanese Air Force. The Second and Third Squadrons were back at Kunming recouping and getting their equipment back in shape. But before I went to China in the first place, all I'd heard about the Japanese equipment, the Japanese pilots, the military and the Japanese airplanes, that they were substandard type and inferior to anything the United States had and in fact the United States back then didn't have nothing to speak of. P-40 was it as far as the first line fighters and I was associated - and especially down at Rangoon, while we were still down there. Now the I-97, that's the airplane that we run into first and that was what they had the most of until they all got destroyed, now those airplanes were built - there was nothing wrong with the way they were built and nothing wrong with their engine, but their [?] between the wing and the fuselage where we screw ours in so that we can take them off for inspection, now they didn't have screws in theirs, they put rivets in it so they didn't plan on tearing in there to inspect nothing, they planned on an expendable airplane really. But as far as the engine and the construction of the wings and the landing gear system that the - in fact I had an occasion to inspect those personally - and they were good, they were well built as far as I was concerned, and good workmanship. The same on the Zero that they came up with. Now the Zero was actually a superior type airplane to the P-40 and of course the workmanship on a Zero was good, it was a light airplane and it had more fire power than the I-97 did. But as far as the �quality of equipment they don't - I never did see anything that I could pick a quarrel with the Japanese on. As far as the Japanese pilots, now the pilots themselves can give you a lot better input than I can because I was looking at them from the ground coming over and been involved in them taking a strafing pass at me once in a while, but actually the Japanese, they were fanatics I would say in a lot of respects because they got their airplanes shot up and they started down with it and they couldn't go - now they were gonna dive that airplane into some piece of equipment on the ground, whether it be an airplane, a truck or what have you. Now we seen that happen quite a number of times. And I don't know the reason behind that except since it come up with the Kamikaze pilots and that sort of stuff, I put them in the same category. But they were going to destroy something - if they were gonna go, they were gonna take something along with it. They did that on quite a number of occasions. But as far as the equipment, I mean that's… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Harrington_JJ_1991-06-10_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrington, Jasper J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-10 Title A name given to the resource J. J. Harrington interview (video and transcript, 7 of 14), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of J. J. Harrington by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Harrington served in the AVG as Line Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." After experiencing some confusion with his recruitment for AVG and discharge from the U.S. Army Air Forces, he traveled to Rangoon, Burma where he was met by Col. Chennault. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Kunming, China. In this tape, Harrington explains the backstory as to why the AVG and General Chennault didn't receive sufficient supplies and support from the United States War Department. He also discusses his respect and admiration for Squadron Leader, Bob Neale. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d9cddf0c5b4b8d492f41b3763ee1178b.mp4 c659394b6bebe5c61fe617dc2be9856f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b355b78fceb9d8ca017e3bcdba649354.pdf 98c099a0a2e9efaa5e97b0ea6781006f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Jasper “J. J.” Harrington Date of Interview: 06-10-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 8] FRANK BORING: It was real chaos which eventually you escaped from, you know, to get out of, but at any rate. Just before we get to that, though. A part of the story we think is very, very important is that in combat during this period of time, planes were damaged and you've already described the kind of things you had to do to get them back in shape and air worthy, but now what we're looking for, you've got no supplies, you've got no real support, there's only a few of you working on the airplanes, what is this attitude of getting down to basics and getting the job done? J. J. HARRINGTON: You're talking about getting down to basics, getting the job done. See the British were not providing us anything except oxygen and batteries. We were providing the equipment. (break) J. J. HARRINGTON: I'd like to follow on the last days that we were down in Rangoon and especially the city of Rangoon. The British had pulled out, therefore the law enforcement officials, they didn't have any law enforcement in the city of Rangoon. I rode down through Rangoon during this period and everything was completely torn up and everything had gone completely haywire as far as law and order. There was no law and order in Rangoon at all and it was just looting all over the city. So �that was a sad situation and then there was just complete turmoil and no control over the people at all that was down there. From that one time that I went down there, I never did go down into Rangoon anymore, we stayed out on the airdrome out there. Since the British pulled out and in a way with their capability for batteries and oxygen support that they were providing, that we had quite a few things that came up that we needed some help and primarily it was the lack of parts and as I've told many people that wanted to know how we made out without the spare parts that would normally be supported - that you'd get support for you - my approach was and it went pretty much all through the entire time we were over there - my approach then was that if you've got a can-do type attitude and if you work hard enough and long enough you'll get something done and that's the first thing that we found out was that ingenuity wasn't a lost art. Believe me, I still believe it. If you've got a can-do type attitude and if you work hard enough and long enough you're gonna accomplish something and that's basically the theory that we went on. Some of the things that we did to try to save airplanes, there might be a small item that was wrong with an airplane - in fact one example at Rangoon - the generator just completely blew up on the P-40, for what reason I don't know and it was in pieces. Well the only thing I did was take the generator off the back of that engine and get me a plate and bolt it on the back of that engine then you didn't have any electrical power it should be in the generator - the only electrical power you had was from what was coming out of the battery. So I told Bob Neale that I had this airplane but I need the [?] to fly up to Kunming and I said we got to have somebody to pay attention to what I tell him when he gets in the airplane. Anyway he gave this pilot who was ready to go anyway, he was ready to get the heck out of Rangoon for any reason. Anyway I told him you ain't got no electricity except what's in that battery, that P-40 had electrical props on it, they also had radios and if - I was sitting up on this cockpit with this �pilot and I said "You don't need it to operate the props, you've got a manual lever over here that you can operate the prop with, you didn't have to push a button to use electrical power to operate it" and I said "You don't need the radio, all you're doing is going from here straight to Kunming just as fast as you can" Yep, yep, he understood, he understood and so we got the airplane cranked and he run out and took off and there's a lot of trees at Mingaladon and so he got out of sight and I heard this terrific roar, I knew what it was and I knew who was doing it too. And it was a prop running away on that P-40 that just took off and he come around and the pitch - the lower the pitch had got the fighter the prop was turning and it was just screaming - one engine blew up completely. But then by the same token you're not getting no bite and the tail slowed this thing and about like an old rooster's tail that sometimes get over a fence - anyway I looked and I was just hoping that character could make the end of the strip, which it did. So I run out there in the jeep and if this guy would have had a gun he'd have shot me right there when I jumped up on the wing. "What are you trying to do, kill me?" I didn't say nothing and I looked over in the cockpit there and he had the radio turned on, he had the propeller switch turned on automatic. I said "If I had a ball bat, I'd beat your head in too." So I told him to get out of the airplane and I said "I'll get somebody else to fly it, but I'll be darned if I'll lose an airplane on account of something like that." I was upset really. So I didn't want to lose an airplane for just something like that happening. So anyway he talked real sweet. I went over and got another fully charged battery and he was following me around. He wanted to get out of Rangoon. So anyway I didn't say nothing to Bob Neale about what happened. I did get another fully charged battery and put it in this airplane. He got in the cockpit and I got back up on the side of the cockpit with him. I said "You think you can keep your fingers off of the switches until you can get from here to Kunming?" "Oh yeah, yeah, I understand now." But the only �thing about it that hurt me, the first time he wasn't paying attention to what I was trying to tell him. The second time he was and he took off and he went on into Kunming and we saved an airplane as a result of it too, which we darn near lost. But things like that that happened that you had to use your own good judgment and do things - that was not the safest flight not having the generator on there, providing you get a little cooperation from the guy that's flying the airplane. So anyway we saved an airplane by that and that we'd done on a number of occasions - to try to do the best we can with what we had. FRANK BORING: Could you tell us the story about the propeller that had two holes in it and you had to - you said that to get that propeller back in shape you had to shoot a hole through the third. J. J. HARRINGTON: Going back to some of the things that we did - and getting back to the ingenuity - we're still not losing safety of flight items on airplanes. We had a P-40 down at Rangoon and we had two props that had holes in them - two blades and then we had one blade that didn't have a hole in it, well we didn't have another blade, we didn't have another two blades to put in - putting the blades in the hub of a prop is supposed to be a shop type work, but I've been to aircraft maintenance school and all the rest of them had too…… (break) FRANK BORING: We [?] the airplane blade and basically you don't have to give us the background of the in…… (break) FRANK BORING: The prop - you don't need to preface it or anything - just tell us what you actually did - you had the two blades that were shot. �J. J. HARRINGTON: Another problem that we had that spare parts would have come in mighty handy on during our operation over there - in one incident it was at Rangoon where we - due to the synchronized 50 caliber machine guns we had on the P-40B, they'd occasionally if they got out of sync just a tad, why they'd shoot a hole direct through the prop. The sequence that they fired is direct dead center and by the time the bullet got there they were shooting through the space. This one particular incident at Rangoon we had one P-40 it had a bad prop, it had two blades that had holes in them, and one blade that didn't have any holes in it. Now we could change the blades inside the hub if we would have had a blade to put in it, but we didn't have a blade to put in it, so actually the next best thing to do was to get this airplane out of the way and hid it in a direction where it wouldn't do harm to anybody and then pull this good blade up dead center and then pull the trigger and shoot a hole in it. Some people would wonder why did you want to do that. If we shot a hole in it with a machine gun it would be similar to the holes that were already shot in it, they went with a 50 caliber slugs through it and then we could take a file and smooth off the rough edges so all three holes and then let that airplane take off go back to Kunming on a one-way flight so to speak, but not get in combat because we didn't trust that type of operation in combat because it didn't have to go full throttle on the trip back from Rangoon to Kunming. And by so doing, we at least saved the airplane and when we could get a prop with some blades to go on it why we'd do it. FRANK BORING: Could you just make a comment on the statements and you don't need a preface on either side, just make the statement that you had made in your interview before that you had heard that the Japanese didn't need to cross the bay they could just go across on the wreckage of all the airplanes that were [?]. �(break) FRANK BORING: Japanese wouldn't need to build a bridge across the bay they could just… J. J. HARRINGTON: While we were still at Rangoon and before we left the Japanese still came over every day, every morning, every afternoon and at night and someone made the comment that the Japanese ground forces had not reached Martaban Bay, they were still in Thailand and the comment was made that when the Japanese did reach the Martaban Bay - the shores of Martaban Bay, they would not have to build a bridge across to Rangoon in Burma, but all they'd have to do is just drive their vehicles across on the Japanese airplanes that fell in Martaban Bay from being shot down by the Flying Tigers. FRANK BORING: You'd left Rangoon, describe the trip up the Burma Road. J. J. HARRINGTON: Still at Rangoon things were getting mighty hectic because the ground troops were getting closer to the Martaban Bay and the Salween River and instead of trying to cross the Martaban Bay, why the Japanese elected to go up the Salween River about 50 miles and then go across the Salween railway heading west and they had gone across and cut off the Burma Road north of us about 50 miles and they say the ground troops was about the only thing that we were really worried about because we could not get in a hole and hide from them so we had to stay away from the ground troops and so Bob Neale decided that we would go ahead and selected that night that we would get our gas trucks and vehicles with ammunition around the ground troops and we picked out a little town just north about 50 miles north of Rangoon and so that night I went ahead and led a couple of convoys…… (break) �FRANK BORING: Just start at that night. J. J. HARRINGTON: That night I led some convoys, ones that we could cut loose at the time we did and then so I carried them on up to this little town and just parked them and said just stay put until they get back. And I made about 3 trips up there. As you're going up this little road there's one road that headed straight and another road that was sort of a Y and I explained everything it never looked crooked to those people and so I'd lead the trip up there and I happened to look back and I didn't see one of the troops and the chief, so I headed back on down this road to the right, here this little light was waiting on the road blinking, so I speeded up went on down there at just full bore as I could go because we were expecting one minute some Japanese ground troops down there if you'd have kept going for a little ways - got him back out on the road. Anyway we got everybody put at this little town and so I went back and told Bob Neale that we were all set as far as all their supplies and ammunition and the gas trucks and stuff and then all we had to do was to get out and make sure he could start the airplanes the next morning, which he did. I headed back on up the road to meet up with the troops that was already there and Bob Neale and the rest of the pilots, they flew top cover for us till we could get away from the - on up the road and make sure that the Japanese Air Force didn't come over and strafe our few little trucks we had. See we couldn't go up the Burma Road, that was our prime route to get our vehicles up, so we went up on the road west of there, which was a Prome road. That was up the side of the river and that was the last road in western Burma that we could get out with our vehicles so we went in convoy up there and they flew top cover to make sure we didn't get shot up on the road and went up to the little town of Magwe. Now the British had stopped at Magwe also with their aircraft and so that's where we set up operations again. �FRANK BORING: At this time, before the Third Squadron relieved you, you made a comment that Bob Neale came to you after one of the flights and he said that you're running out of equipment, you're running out of - you guys are really getting tired, that you needed help. Do you recall that conversation you had with him? He was saying you need relief, you need help. J. J. HARRINGTON: I don't really recall that - I recall the semblance of that conversation, but I don't know where it was at. FRANK BORING: That's all right just go ahead and give us the comment. J. J. HARRINGTON: See that was a B-17's that came in there when we were at Magwe too - brand new ones. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Harrington_JJ_1991-06-10_v08 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrington, Jasper J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-10 Title A name given to the resource J. J. Harrington interview (video and transcript, 8 of 14), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of J. J. Harrington by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Harrington served in the AVG as Line Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." After experiencing some confusion with his recruitment for AVG and discharge from the U.S. Army Air Forces, he traveled to Rangoon, Burma where he was met by Col. Chennault. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Kunming, China. In this tape, Harrington discusses what it was like working to keep airplanes in the air with limited supplies and support, in addition to the last days spent in Rangoon without law and order. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ae213d775f8247548b7ae419b9e0217c.mp4 e744b9afe8efbefbc15ecb619052f44e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6dcee901bb595e60c319f1750a0bd0e3.pdf c86eba0b04c1fa70a5a6a360d582824e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Jasper “J. J.” Harrington Date of Interview: 06-10-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 9] (Edited retakes at the start) J. J. HARRINGTON: I'd like to make one comment that Bob Neale said while we were still at Rangoon when things were getting so hot down there. He would take off in the morning… (break) FRANK BORING: Let's just start at Bob Neale would take off in the morning, don't worry about the preface part of it. J. J. HARRINGTON: Bob Neale would take off in the morning on a combat mission and then he'd come back at noon, would replace his fuel, his ammunition and take off that afternoon, if he didn't shoot up all his ammunition and come back and load up and get prepared for the next day and do the same thing all over again. Bob Neale made the remark that he said "Gee we're sort of fighting a lost cause and a losing battle. Go up shoot all our ammunition, come back, load up, go up and shoot all the ammunition again" He said "By gosh it's time we got a little help over here." (break) J. J. HARRINGTON: After we left Magwe - I guess about a week - our airplanes were shot up and beat up and we were worn out and beat up also and General Chennault sent the Third Squadron down to �relieve us and then we left and went back into Kunming with the personnel we had and also our aircraft. FRANK BORING: When you got to Kunming, at this point the crew was resting - resting or were you still trying to fix up the airplanes that were brought in? J. J. HARRINGTON: No, we didn't get no rest we…… (break) J. J. HARRINGTON: When we left Magwe and went back to Kunming, that was not for R&R that's for sure. We went back and when we arrived at Kunming and got bedded down in our barracks or where we normally stayed at the second hostel, we started working on our airplanes and we had a lot of work to do on those airplanes. Not only patch holes but some engines needed replacing and while we were at Kunming, we did have a shop there that we could tear down an engine. These engines could be torn down and we could grind the valves by hand and make sure that we could get compression. We had some airplanes that the compression was pretty low and when you get the compression low like that, why then it's either from rains or seepage between the valves, so you grind the valves and the only way you can grind them is by hand and I used to work over at the shop quite a bit tearing these things down and then putting them back together. In the meantime trying to grind the valves and you could do it - it just takes a long time, but you'd take and you'd grind and grind - in and out, in and out and sooner or later you can get it to where you don't have any - you first start off you pour gas in the cylinder and it runs right out. So when you get it to the point where it's just a stain, why that's good enough. �FRANK BORING: Around this time Chennault asked you to go to Karachi and I was just wondering what was the reason for him sending you there and what actually transpired when you arrived? J. J. HARRINGTON: Shortly after arriving at Kunming from Magwe, we were out working on the airplanes and General Chennault came out and there were quite a few people around and he was just carrying on a general discussion and I was listening to him and Chennault came over to me and said "Harrington, do you know anything about a turbo super charger?" and he shut up, he didn't say no more and I didn't know from Adam what he was talking about. So there was just a little pause and I said "Yes, sir, I know all about them things" and I shut up. I knew that was not a good enough answer for General Chennault but then by the same token I still didn't know what he was talking about. But then he asked me, he says "Well how come you know all about them things or how did you get to know all about them things?" I told him I'd been to school in airplane engine mechanic school. I had worked on airplanes at PB-2's that did have a turbo super charger on them. I'd replaced them, I'd installed them, I'd adjusted them and basically that's all you could do on a turbo super charger. You can adjust it, if that don't satisfy the problem, why you've gotta replace it. It's a real high speed turbine wheel that improves the compressions on the engine. So anyway I explained to General Chennault and he seemed to be perfectly satisfied that I had worked on the turbo super charger and then he said "Would you - the Chinese have about 35 P-40E's in the dock at Karachi and would you like to go over there and get them off the ship and get them assembled so we can fly them back into China?" I thought for a minute. I said "Yes sir I certainly would. I'd be proud to go over there." So in fact I had to rush to get my stuff together, I got my bags packed and headed out. But what they wanted to do - we had about 5 or 6 AVG pilots and then I was the only mechanic that went along. But they had about 12 or 15 Chinese pilots, so the purpose of the �Flying Tiger pilots was to - when we got the airplane assembled, they had to get checked out in the airplane itself first and then they were gonna check the Chinese pilots out and so then they were going to take about 5 or 6 Chinese pilots and one or two Flying Tiger pilots and then escort them on the way back to China. So we left and headed out and General Mao was in the group. There were a lot of Chinese and he was a brilliant man, I've always had the utmost respect for him too. Anyway we went over - we were flying in a Sunderland Flying Boat across the desert and there's one lake in between Calcutta and Karachi and we made a passenger stop there. But then we went on into Karachi and as we were flying over there I noticed a lot of tents down on the desert there's nothing but desert over there anyway - they were scattered all over that place. But I didn't see the first airplane, there was just nothing but tents and no airplane. So anyway we got off the airplane and got bedded down at the hotel and went out to the airport and I wanted to go by and see what was in those tents out there. So the first time that I could I went out to the tent city and there was a lot of tents out there, but they had a hangar lying with some hangars, there was no activity there either. I went out there and lo and behold I run into a bunch of my old buddies that I left Hamilton Field with and they joined this pursuit group and told me how stupid I was to go to China in the first place. They were sitting out there in tents and didn't have the first airplane in the entire group - a fighter group and didn't have the first airplane out there and that triggered off all kinds of light bulbs in my head when I ran into that. As soon as I could I went into see Jim Brady. They had a factory rep - a Republic Factory rep there and a Pratt and Whitney rep so I met them and got acquainted with them and then went into see Jim Brady. He was a commander there and a heck of a nice fellow so I introduced myself and told Jim Brady that I had a big problem and I'd sure like to chat with him and I'm sure that he could help me too. So I told him what the situation was with these airplanes �down on this ship down there - still in the dock. I says "I walked through that tent city out there and I run into a bunch of my old buddies that I left in the States. They asked why I ever came with the AVG in the first place and I said I know they're good mechanics because I grew up with them and I said "The bottom line of my sad story is that I need help." So General Brady said he'd like to put them all to work because he didn't have anything for them to do. Anyway they had a big old balloon hangar there at Shagrin [?] and the three squadrons in this group - they put two squadrons, one on the assembly line on one side of the hangar and one assembly line on the other side of the hangar and when they would get one completed, they'd get it out to the end of the hangar, why I'd get in it and taxied out to an old balloon tie down stake out there away from the hangar and run it up and set the manifold pressure on it and that's all you do to a turbo super charger, just set it whatever reading it's set for the airplane. Once I did that, I taxied this airplane over to one of the hangars where another squadron was, another bunch of my good friends, and I turned it over to them to put a shake-down inspection on it to make sure that all the people over in the balloon hangar had done what they were supposed to do and once they put the shake-down inspection on it, why then the Flying Tiger pilots would fly the airplane first and they'd get checked out in it and then they would start getting the Chinese pilots checked out. Once they got 7 or 8 Chinese pilots checked out, why then they would head out back to China. So that went on for quite a long time. Of course they didn't assemble those airplanes very fast under the circumstances. Even though they had a lot of manpower. But when we did get pretty close, why about that time I got a wire from Chennault and he said some of the P-40E's are back in China and having problems. If one of you can turn loose over there, how about coming on back in. So we were finished as far as I was concerned because the group had everything under control and I was acquainted with the B-17 crew there at Karachi, in fact I got real well �acquainted with the people that were flying those B-17's, and I asked the pilot could I fly to Calcutta with him from Karachi and he said "Oh sure, but we don't have a parachute for you, but we have plenty of room" I told him that it was news to me that the Air Force still isn't using parachutes, because we never used them in China but he said no you can go, so I put my tool box aboard the airplane and then I flew from Karachi and went into Calcutta with them on the B-17 and during the trip, we stayed overnight in Rau and then picked up a load of bombs on this B-17. But anyway taking to them, what they were gonna do was go down to Calcutta and then they were gonna run a bombing mission to Rangoon and that's a long, all night mission from Calcutta to Rangoon. So in a way I went out there to the airport and saw all these airplanes, P40's and P-40E's scattered around the woods and those pilots they were about to go if they could at all set an airplane down out in the desert somewhere, they were gonna have half of their cylinders firing, they'd go staggering into Calcutta, but Calcutta was a nice place to spend some extra time and that was a mess and I didn't have no help to do any of this work. The Chief of Maintenance with Continental Arch man there, he got sorry for me and says I've got a good Chinaman I'll let you have to give you some help and he came out there and he turned this Chinaman over to me and he spoke English fairly well. So I'd had a battery on a P-40E that had boiled over and just made a big mess so I'd already disconnected batteries and I wanted him to take the battery and go wash it off while I did a few little piddling things with it and then the airplane would have been ready to go across the hump. I got finished and the boy never did come back and I went around the side of the building and about half way up the side of the building was a faucet and a tub up there and this Chinaman had taken this battery and filled this tub full of water and he pushed it all the way down in the water and then he'd pick it up and turn it over and just shake it and I stood there and looked at him and he did the same thing and he'd been doing it for about 30 �minutes. I was just laying up next to the wall and I was thinking of doing bodily harm to that young man. I just didn't know what to say, but anyway I went over to Sol Dishey [?], he was the Chief of Maintenance there and I said "Sol, would you please take your help" so then I was left without anything but I continued to work until I got the airplanes ready to fly back across the hump. I run into some problems there with the [?] for the P-40E. On the fuel pump in any airplane - and it's for the P-40E, you've got an inlet side and then you've got a pressure side. You build up pressure inside this pump and it goes out one side. Well on this particular pump in this P-40E they did not have a bead on that pump so you could squeeze a hose down it tight enough to prevent it from leaking. If you build up pressure in that, in all probability that thing is gonna go, it's gonna go sooner or later, it might go just as soon as you put pressure on it. But anyway they had a note from the factory saying that it needed a bead on this pressure side of this fuel pump. Well they didn't have no beading tool down at Calcutta there and you can make a bead on a tube and what I did was get a spike - a big nail and used the head of the nail and put it in the pipe and put it on a piece of wood in the vise and sit there and keep pecking at it and just keep going round and round and if you keep pecking on that thing you will get a bead on that sooner or later. It seems that nothing's gonna happen, but you will get a bead on it. Well with all the P40E's down there I had to spend anywhere from 2 to 3 hours to put a bead on this tube so that I could put a hose on it, put a hose clamp on the other side of the little bead that I put on there and if you don't, you just have to lose the airplane. So anyway I finally got the P-40's, the P-40E's all ready to go across the hump back into China, so I went back on the CNAC back across the hump. I got back into Kunming and went and reported to General Chennault and explained why I was delayed on the [?] in Calcutta. He said "Well I'm glad you got in, all the P-40E's are grounded" so I said "What for?" He said "I don't know what they're grounded for - �they're all grounded. The prop is out of kilter and they won't work." I went over there and was checking out these Chinese officers in these P-40E's. I went over and talked them, a lot of them spoke English. So I always carried a screw driver and a pair of pliers in my pocket anyway and a pair of wire cutters. Didn't know what I would run into anywhere. I went over and talked to these Chinese. They explained what was wrong with this propeller on this P-40E. On an airplane, on the pitch of the prop you've got from high pitch to low pitch and it gives you the amount of RPM's all the way down to low pitch, high RPM, or high pitch you get low RPM and it's supposed on this P-40E if I remember right, it's supposed to go from about 1800 RPM all the way down to 1100 RPM, that's the max travel from low to high RPM. Well it liked 50 RPM going before travel. It was the travel that you would never use in flight of any type of reasons, but the Chinese when they run into something like that, this is wrong, it's got to be fixed. So they grounded all them airplanes. They could have gone out to the line and got any mechanic to go over do it, but they got to sit there and wait until I get all the way from Calcutta back up there to go out there and do it. So anyway I got my screw driver and we got the cowling off this airplane that had been running up and sure enough they were riding like 50 RPM's and they were telling me Yep, yep, it's right and I said "Yeah I know it's right, it's right" We took the cowling off the thing and you've got a governor on it and if you want to adjust a higher or lower pitch you take your screw driver and you've got a little set screw there, you turn it to set it. So I did and then run it up again and it was all right. Anyway they showed them in the book where this is wrong and I said yes it sure is. And all these Chinese officers being checked out, they was getting around me and getting back to General Mao, he always put his head in once in a while too, he was interested in what the devil these airplanes - what was wrong with these airplanes. Of course I met him when I went over to Karachi. So after it was all fixed then the Chinese got around there and �they show them in the book, well it says back there in the book, you do it. So anyway you get a part in the technical [?] that says what it's supposed to do and that's where the pilots to have this is the range. But you turn over to the dash 2 on the same tech order that tells you how to fix it. Anyway I sat there and nodded my head, yep, yep, that's right. But then I thumbed over about two or three pages and I said "This is what you're supposed to be looking at, this is where you're supposed to fix that thing." By golly, so anyway I turned and left them. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Harrington_JJ_1991-06-10_v09 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrington, Jasper J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-10 Title A name given to the resource J. J. Harrington interview (video and transcript, 9 of 14), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of J. J. Harrington by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Harrington served in the AVG as Line Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." After experiencing some confusion with his recruitment for AVG and discharge from the U.S. Army Air Forces, he traveled to Rangoon, Burma where he was met by Col. Chennault. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Kunming, China. In this tape, Harrington discusses his squadron's return to Kunming from Magwe during a time when it felt as though they were fighting a losing battle. He also goes into detail about the time General Chennault sent him to Karachi to assemble 35 P-40E fighter planes. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/07222a9e1743785352ca94e89254d038.mp4 231160de94c6fbfce24bea21d0275774 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/184da83e9b0951ec183fd1bf5ffde7ba.pdf db712a9280e84892a29c3eb8dd4fb37d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Jasper “J. J.” Harrington Date of Interview: 06-10-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 10] J. J. HARRINGTON: I've made the comment several times that the shortage of personnel that we had in addition to the shortage of equipment and parts and I've been asked many times why didn't we utilize the Chinese a lot more with the aircraft maintenance than we ever did and really I have worked with the Chinese, especially around Kunming they would assign these young fellows to us and I would try to work with them. The only thing, they were smart people, they were intelligent people and they were just clean-cut young Chinese, however, they had not been to mechanical school and especially a school on the mechanics of airplanes and one of the simple problems of maintenance that we had on the P-40 was valves. We had to check those valves quite often and sometimes about every time they came down from a full throttle flight, which is about every time they took off. So about once a day we'd check those valves. They were easy to check. You had to take two valve covers off of the top of the engine, they were readily to get to and then you could reset the clearance to what it was supposed to be on these valves. And I worked with these Chinese and sometimes when I didn't have anything to do and I worked with them patiently to try to get them to learn how to check valves, well they could get the clearance adjusted properly, but then to hold the retaining nut and get the thing to hold the clearance nut and then tighten the retaining nut to hold it in place. Then I'd check it after �they got through with it and sometimes it would be too tight, or it'd be too loose, very seldom got one that was exactly right. Then I explained to them how they were supposed to do this again and so they'd do the same thing and once in a while they'd get one right and once in a while they wouldn't. Well when we were out there - now we did not have airplanes that we could set aside for instructional purposes. The airplanes that we were working on, as soon as we got an air raid, we could put the airplane back in commission right then and it would be available by the time the pilot got out there. Well we couldn't tear down an airplane and have a school for these students and I tried and tried and just never could do it. It was more time trying to teach them than there was for us to go ahead and do the job in the first place. That's the reason really that I never did get any productive work to speak of out of the Chinese helpers. Now they did have a place there where they did major maintenance at Kunming, that we called Grandma's Old Graveyard, a wooded area off the strip down there. If we had some major maintenance to do on an airplane, why we would take it down there and now they had some people that worked with them down there that they was in no hurry and they didn't have to get it out at a moment's notice and start running again. They did get a little productive use out of those people. But out on the line where you had to have the airplane ready it was just impossible to get the airplane back in commission. You couldn't tear it down very much, you had to tear it down just a little so you could get it right back in commission. So that was - I would attribute to the lack of training to the Chinese youngsters and of course after they started getting some updated equipment and went to some technical schools, then they got sharp. It's a different situation completely now than it was when we were over there. FRANK BORING: Your next stop was to go to Kweilin, I wonder why were you sent there and what were your duties during that period? �J. J. HARRINGTON: Well after we had our equipment in as good a shape as we could get it in there at Kunming, it was about time for us to move out someplace. We were back healthy again as far as our own selves and airplanes - as healthy as we could get and it was decided that they would send the First Squadron to Chungking and this was more of a diversion than anything else. We went to Chungking and stayed up there a few days and then one night this Chinese pilot, he was with the Chinese National Airways, I forget his name, but he was an old, mature pilot and a darn good one, he was as good as Bill McDonald. So anyway he came up and picked the ground troops up so we headed south and kept going, and going, and going and I began thinking, well I'll look out and see water sooner or later, but he starts letting down and making a turn like he was coming in for a landing and everything was just black outside and so he let his gear down and started letting his flaps down, you could hear them, so just before he touched down, then here comes two streaks of light down this strip, so he just clump, clump and then the lights went out and he was down on the ground. These two streaks of light was lanterns and there were Chinamen and lanterns on both sides of the runway all the way down there at Kweilin and as soon as we touched down those lights went out, so he taxied back on over and parked it and we got out, they had a truck there and we went out about 3 or 4 miles a little bit farther away from the strip and found a place to sleep and got a few winks of sleep and got up the next morning and met up with the Station Master to find out where we could get some gas and where we could park the airplanes which were gonna be in the next day. So once we started getting it all straightened out then we had an air raid. So they'd put up the Jingbao balls and so here comes this observation plane that came in and circled around Kweilin and then in a little bit here comes this formation of bombers with a five escort and we were sitting in a hole on the side of the hill there and there's rock formations down there and you could find a pretty good hole �and just sit there and watch them just bomb and strafe everything around there. So after they got through they left and headed on back after quite a long while. So anyway we did what we could and found out where everything was and then late that afternoon, just before dark our P-40's, the First Squadron came in and so we had a place already picked out where we could put them and refuel them and what maintenance had to be done and so that's what we did as soon as the P-40's got in and that was the one time that I run into refueling problem that I hadn't experienced before. The fuel that we had at Kweilin came out of caves in 50 gallon drums and it had been there for God knows how long. There was so much water in the fuel that the - we had a large funnel and then on top of that we had an insert to go in this funnel and then a chamois skin, we could put chamois skin off in the insert to go in it, well you just covered that up so you could run the fuel through this funnel and chamois skin until the gas wouldn't run and so then you had to take it out and squeeze the chamois skin out and put it back in and do it all over again. So it was quite a lengthy operation to refuel airplanes. Now we started off doing that and then later they did get a fuel truck in that helped out a heck of a lot. And even the fuel truck didn't have the capability of siphoning out this water with a filter so much as still run it through a chamois skin and going through chamois skin like that, you don't get all the water out of the fuel, but you can get it in and fill up your tanks and then wait for an hour or two and then you can drain the sump plugs underneath the [?] part of the tanks on these P-40's and then you could get a good portion of the water out of the fuel. But anyway the P-40's got in so we immediately got in and scattered them around these rock formations and under trees and got all the airplanes fixed and ready to go. Then the next morning, here was this alert, the same little observation plane came tooling out up from Canton so Bob Neale and the P-40's they took off and headed up north of the field and Chennault was down there for this little operation �too. Anyway we were sitting over the side of the hill in the rock formation where we could see the strip and all the time that we were over there we tried to get someplace when they had a raid so that we could see the strip and it's happened, the P-40 had problems and the pilot had to make an emergency landing and then the other P-40's would fly top cover for him to try to protect him from any strafing. We'd run down with the jeep and try to get the pilot out and get him in a hole somewhere. So I was in a hole next to the hill and these bombers were coming in from behind us and they saw the P40's coming and they salvo'd [?] all their bombs right on top of this hill right behind everybody. I've never seen such a rock slide in my life. I just hopped up in the hole a little closer to let all these rocks rip by and they shot down about 16 airplanes and graduated them [?] and from there on out then the Japanese were in there en mass. So later Tex Hill came down with his squadron and he was up at Hengyang, which was quite a ways from - the airplanes, the Japanese were coming in from Hankow into Hengyang, well it let up on us at Kweilin and doubled up on them at Hankow - I mean in Hengyang from Hankow and so the First Squadron then went up to help out outfit up in Hengyang. Since we were the first airplanes, the Flying Tigers that had gone into Kweilin, nobody bothered them, they'd been coming over and bombing Kweilin and bombing the Chinese cities at will, just like they had up around Kunming and they didn't have any interference at all. They stopped it, but then by the same token the Japanese increased their activity to knock out the Flying Tigers too but they never did. FRANK BORING: Could you describe the caves themselves and the conditions that you were working under in Kweilin? J. J. HARRINGTON: While we were at Kweilin, the terrain was rock formations scattered all around and imbedded in these rocks were shells as if it was on the water some many, many moons ago. But �they had a lot of caves in those rocks and our actual operations center was in a cave and that had been in a cave for many, many moons really, so that's where they actually operated from and we had a communications radio and it's tied in with the system. In another cave, 3 or 4 miles from that main one, that was where we had the communications set up. But anyway in this cave is where they had the communications from the network on the movement of aircraft. In fact, they had this huge chart on the wall and it would get reports from the time an airplane would take off at Canton we'd get a report on it there and he would put a little flag on it and then kept putting them on the board to see what direction they were going. So anyway we stayed down at Kweilin from the time we went down there until the 4th of July came around and we disbanded. FRANK BORING: Let's go into the - during this period of time there's pretty [?] bombing raid could you just talk about that? J. J. HARRINGTON: While we were at Kweilin, we still ran into the parts problems that the P-40's and one thing about - that we did not have a shortage over anywhere in China was manpower. Now that was in abundance. So when the Japanese would come in on a bombing raid, even at night, if you come in at night, the holes were repaired before we could get out there in the morning. If they came in during the daytime, as soon as the bombers got out of the way, those holes were repaired immediately by coolies. I don't know where they all came from but they just sprouted out of the ground around there, as soon as the raid was over with they'd done it so much until they were really proficient in it and so the coolies would go over and cover all these holes with a mixture of gravel and dirt and have it all packed down. It didn't take them very long to do it. Now it didn't make any difference when they came over and bombed, whether it'd be night or in the daytime, now that bunch of people was there. So the lack of manpower was not a problem �at all as far as manual labor and that type stuff. It was more than adequate. FRANK BORING: Right around this time there was a party given to you by the Kweilin City Fathers. I understand that it was kind of a humorous situation which you noticed about the Chinese. J. J. HARRINGTON: Right after we got down to Kweilin, the Japanese had bombed the cities Kweilin and the cities surrounding that area without any opposition whatsoever and at the time the P-40's attacked this bomber formation and shot down 16 airplanes, that was the first time that any airplane had done anything to the Japanese formations trying to bomb that place. So after that the P-40's were there and they did not have no problem with the bombing the city or any cities around there. After the Flying Tigers shot down about 16 of their airplanes they were more concerned about knocking out the Flying Tigers than they was dropping bombs on innocent people and cities. Well the mayor and city fathers they were appreciative of what the Flying Tigers had done and Kweilin was a beautiful city. So they wanted to do something and they were gonna have a big banquet for the Flying Tigers and Bob told me we couldn't go down town for a banquet because the Japs might come back and we have to be out there. Anyway they were gonna come out there and they come out with truckloads of fancy food and must have gone into their cellars and got all the kind of booze that you can imagine and they had a big spread there in this building where we slept. It was a wonderful thing for them to do but they brought out - this was American whiskey and you'd have to remember that in a Chinese dinner that you usually have about 30 courses and about 90% of them are liquid. So anyway they were [?] by on me to this and that, well they had downed a glass of just straight whiskey. Of course Neale was sitting next to the mayor and the dignitaries, I was sitting close to them and he says "Drink up back in the United States you people drink gallons of this" Bob says �"Yes, we do, but over a long period of time and not in one sitting." It was not too long, you never seen like a drunk people in your life, because they were just not accustomed to drinking that hard liquor straight and every time somebody wanted to toast somebody then there was another glass full of whiskey. They started to have to drag them out and drag them out, but the intentions were good and they were a wonderful bunch of people. But they couldn't quite take this straight whiskey, by gosh, toasted by gosh, by a bunch of people as often as they toast people was what it amounted to. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Harrington_JJ_1991-06-10_v10 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrington, Jasper J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-10 Title A name given to the resource J. J. Harrington interview (video and transcript, 10 of 14), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of J. J. Harrington by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Harrington served in the AVG as Line Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." After experiencing some confusion with his recruitment for AVG and discharge from the U.S. Army Air Forces, he traveled to Rangoon, Burma where he was met by Col. Chennault. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Kunming, China. In this tape, Harrington discusses why they weren't able to utilize the Chinese workers with aircraft maintenance around Kunming, in addition to the communications network that was established within the rocky caves in Kweilin. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/17f374734e6c1578531f26e8b16eb778.mp4 c3d741582504fac5fa183d1ee1342222 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75a96e4ca3689d199df9a220bdfdc13e.pdf 4bbb639b2f3105f4c00cd47529938073 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Jasper “J. J.” Harrington Date of Interview: 06-10-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 11] FRANK BORING: We'll have that as a separate thing, but you talked about hearing from Chennault about the B24 bomber? You said it was also B-25's, and then there's the B-17. You flew, I believe in a B-17? J. J. HARRINGTON: Yeah, we could have used that a lot better but they were coming in to - that was after Magwe and the B-17's - looked out one morning and here come these brand new B-17's into Magwe and I couldn't hardly believe - I thought I was seeing so we went out and was talking to the crew and they were coming in from India just for evacuation purposes I guess, that hauled people from - women and kids and whoever from Burma back out into India. So we went out and talked to the crew and it's just so hard to believe that a brand new B17 coming all the way from the United States. You could put bombs in it and go out and do what it was manufactured to do in the first place. But I know they did not - at Magwe they did not have any early warning systems, period, and Bob Neale the reason he was - I could just keep naming names and put good things on Bob Neale, I guess, but just like when those B-17's come in, the British was there, but they didn't have an early warning, but nobody was taking any steps at all to protect incoming aircraft like those B-17's. That would have been a real jewel, I guess, for the Japanese coming over and tore up three or four of those, brand new ones on the strip. So �Bob then got up and said, "Let's go and get the airplanes, and spread out, get up there and fly top cover for them and at least have a warning system, the P40's, and extend it far enough that they can get airborne and get the heck out of here, before the Japanese come in." But the British weren't going to do anything like that, so Bob Neale just took it on himself. But incidentally, those B-17's was - I talked earlier about my trip to Karachi - those were the same B-17's that had started flying in to Burma, before I went to get those P-40E's, because that was one of the B-17's I flew from Karachi to Calcutta, so I talked to the people and those were the same ones that started flying bombing runs from Calcutta all the way in to Rangoon but they couldn't fly a bombing run because that would mean when we needed them [?] and the ground troops were trying to come in on Rangoon. I don't understand the logic in a lot of things that took place over there is what it amounts to. FRANK BORING: Give us any stories that you may have before Bissell addressed you to get you to come back into the army air corps, one that relates to a B-24 and another to some B-25's. J. J. HARRINGTON: I would like to bring to your attention some personal experiences I've had - with our association with General Bissell as our 10th Air Force Commander and General Chennault. As most people know that General Bissell was promoted to General and at the same time General Chennault was except General Bissell was promoted just ahead of General Chennault so that he would outrank General Chennault. General Bissell - he was under the - Indo China [?] was under the 10th Air Force and General Bissell had his headquarters at New Delhi, India. That's a pretty good piece from a combat zone in New Delhi, but anyway, that was the situation and General Chennault got to go through 10th Air Force Headquarters and General Bissell, before he did anything - and that was - General Bissell had instructed him instructed General Chennault to do that. It wasn't the point in �time - there was the B24 that came in from North Africa and some Major, I forget his name, but he came in for the sole purpose of making surveys of airstrips in China that larger airplanes could be used on them. I was out on the parking lot in Kunming and talking to the engineer about the airplane and one thing and another and what they were doing - they were from North Africa but and General Chennault came by in his car - his chauffeur drove him by and he got out and came over to the B24 where we were sitting talking - standing on the wing, and General Chennault asked me, "How long would it take you to get all that mess out of that airplane so we can hang some bombs on those bomb racks?" I knew what he had in mind, when he mentioned - I said, "Sir, I'd just as soon - I guarantee one thing, we'll have that stuff out by the time Hoffman can get over here with a load of bombs, to start hanging them." Which we did. He left and in a little bit we had the entire aircraft, this B24, off -loaded and the stuff out on the wing. General Chennault came back in a little while and then seeing the [?] with the bombs coming over. General said, "Forget about using them B-24's, I decided I'd better check with my spares before we load it with a load of bombs and my superior informed me that it was not practical to bomb with one bomber and he told me that I would not use that B24 for any combat purposes and said, he not only told me not to use it, he gave me a direct order not to use it, and so I guess that project went by the wayside. Another instance that - conflict between General Bissell and… FRANK BORING: Before you get to that, let's do that story again. J. J. HARRINGTON: As I was underneath the wing of this B24 talking to the engineer that came over from Africa with it, Chennault drove up and got out and come over to where we were at and he spoke to us and he wanted to know, he says, "Harrington, how long would it take you to off load all this stuff you have in that B24 so we can use it?" Jim [?] says. "By the time �Hoffman can come out here with some bombs, we'll have it cleaned out and I can assure you of that." So he left and the engineer and myself went ahead and cleaned the stuff out, but no too much - and Chennault didn't come back. Hoffman [?] the bombs, but later Chennault did come back with a long face, more so than normal, and he said, "I'm sorry to cause you the trouble but I decided before we use that airplane, I'd better check with General Bissell and get authority to use that airplane, since I'm supposed to go through Generals and as General Bissell was the 10th Air Force Commander - and General Bissell informed me that it was not practical to bomb with one bomber, and he told me that I would not use that airplane for any bombing mission at all. In fact, he gave me a direct order not to use that airplane, and says, "Therefore, I guess we have to cancel our little project that I had in mind." So then he left, but another instance of the difference of opinion of what should be done between Bissell and General Chennault. We did have four or five B-25's, that was the entire bomber fleet that we had in China, and General Bissell was going to send six additional B-25's into China but he was going - that's after we had evacuated Burma and the Japanese had taken over Lashio which is in northern Burma, but they were going to send them on a live bombing run to Lashio and then turn and go on up to Kunming, and General Chennault tried to talk him out of taking some crews that had never flown in that territory and run a live mission from India via Lashio, drop the bombs and then turn north and head on into Kunming. Of course, General Bissell didn't pay any attention to what General Chennault said, and that was typical of the relationship between the two the time that I was over. So I was in Kunming the time this did take place, and I was out there on the flight line when two of the B-25's came in, and one of the did have a radio operator killed and in talking to the crew - there was a few puffy clouds scattered around and they were coming into Lashio they got attacked by some Zeros, so they ducked into the clouds to try avoid contact �with the Zeros, and one of the pilots said he just happened to look through the haze of those clouds and he saw some green right in front of him and he just turned and pulled the stick back as far as he could and it just barely missed the mountain and he said that the people who were on the left of him just went clonk, clong, right into the side of the mountain. So they lost four of those B-25's and two of them actually arrived in Kunming with one of the crew dead. That was a sad state of affairs because we could ill afford to lose airplanes which we needed so bad. FRANK BORING: Now if you could tell us about the meeting that was called by Bissell to talk to the AVG about staying on in China. J. J. HARRINGTON: While I was still at Kunming, we were still getting our equipment in shape, and we still had a ways to go with General Bissell. They had reorganized the entire theater, and we came under the 10th Air Force which was organized, and their headquarters was in New Delhi, India, and General Bissell was the Commander of the 10th Air Force and therefore we came under his command, being in China. General Bissell decided to make a trip to China, his first trip to China and I guess it was the day that he came in that they called a meeting of all the Flying Tigers and General Bissell was going to address the group for the first time that he'd ever addressed the group. So I happened to be at Kunming, of course, and it seemed like it was either two squadrons or part of another one there. We met in the first hostel, that was the big building on the other side of town from the airport that most of the people were housed. We were in this conference room, it was a good sized room, and General Bissell and General Chennault were sitting at the table in the front, and were all in the back, and General Bissell got up to address the Flying Tigers that were there and they were quite a number of them. His approach was that, to start off with - and it was addressed to us - that we really hadn't done anything in China, �that the people back in the States were so hungry for information, they'd come up with a little small tidbit of information, and then they'd blow it out of proportion and he said that's the way it gets them in the headlines - the Flying Tigers - he says, "Really, you haven't really accomplished anything over here. They were just hungry for information. Then by the same token, if you people had not joined the Flying Tigers and been discharged from the service, you would have been discharged from the service before the war started in the first place. Most of the people that joined the Flying Tigers were incompetent, incapable people and were not the type of people that were needed in the professional military association." He just implied that we were just a bunch of eight balls, and we took that as a way out, to get out of the military, rather than being discharged, court-marshalled or something. Actually, when he said that we were just a bunch of eight balls, the majority of the people - everybody just come out with a big loud boo and most everybody left. I didn't leave, I didn't get up and leave, I just wanted to sit back and see what else he had on his mind, that he'd like to play on to us. After about three fourths of the people got up and walked out, then there wasn't anybody much left to talk to. But General Chennault sat at the table and General Bissell referred to General Chennault as "Lieutenant". Why I don't know, tried to embarrass him or something. And General Chennault, he didn't change expression, one iota, the whole time that he was there. It was just typical of General Chennault - there wasn't anything hardly he could say under the circumstances, and I know he was boiling inside, but he just sat there with that blank expression on his face. You couldn't tell what he was thinking about. That resulted in a lot of the people heading back home rather than staying over there, I'm sure of that. FRANK BORING: If Chennault had stood up and asked you guys to stay, do you think people would stay? �J. J. HARRINGTON: Actually at that meeting that we had with General Bissell, I think he had already made up his mind what he was going to say before he came over there, because, for some reason, he and General Chennault never got along, even from way back in the States, and since General Bissell outranked General Chennault, I don't know whether he took that as a way to sort of get back at General Chennault for something that happened way back, years ago, or what. But everything that Chennault came up with General Bissell was against. But then [?] telling us that we hadn't accomplished anything, since they'd already shot down way over 200 airplanes with the few airplanes we'd got and we still were not getting supplies from anywhere, and everybody knew that - so I was just at a loss to know whey that approach was taken. It was the first entry into China by our commanding General, which he was, the Commander of the 10th Air Force at the time. FRANK BORING: If you could repeat again - you don't have to give any of the context or anything, but just make the statement because I've never heard this before from anybody, that he kept referring to General Chennault as a Lieutenant? J. J. HARRINGTON: His mind must have been out somewhere, maybe there were together as Lieutenants at one time, but he didn't refer to him as a General, he just referred to him as Lieutenant. He knew that Chennault was a General, no doubt about that because he had big stars on his shoulder, they got promoted at the same time, except General Bissell was put on the promotion list a little ahead - I think one day, ahead of General Chennault. FRANK BORING: What would have happened if Chennault would have asked at that meeting for you guys to stay on? J. J. HARRINGTON: I don't think - if General Chennault would have got up - I couldn't hardly see how he could under the circumstances, but �if he had got up and said, "Ignore what General Bissell said, and I would like to have you gentlemen stay on," and as General Bissell being the overall commander of the China theater at the time, I think it would have been quite a confused mess, more so than it turned out to be. FRANK BORING: But wasn't Bissell asking you guys to stay on? J. J. HARRINGTON: No sir, he didn't ask one time for us to stay on. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Harrington_JJ_1991-06-10_v11 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrington, Jasper J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-10 Title A name given to the resource J. J. Harrington interview (video and transcript, 11 of 14), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of J. J. Harrington by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Harrington served in the AVG as Line Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." After experiencing some confusion with his recruitment for AVG and discharge from the U.S. Army Air Forces, he traveled to Rangoon, Burma where he was met by Col. Chennault. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Kunming, China. In this tape, Harrington describes his personal experience working between General Bissell and General Chennault, in addition to the meeting Bissell called addressing the AVG and their accomplishments in China. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/429b5032e39cf57459594d6138b33788.mp4 5e0f83243e448bfd079fb366142901e3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c661abc70205b439fb1c5fdf3ebe8e86.pdf a6f65e945b260ae24caab85d774aca50 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Jasper “J. J.” Harrington Date of Interview: 06-10-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 12] J. J. HARRINGTON: As far as the session with General Bissell and General Chennault, it was a strange meeting in the first place - for the first time for the Commanding General to come in and visit the unit that had been fighting a war for almost a year and did have an outstanding combat record and they had been sending in good reports, and I just still cannot comprehend the reasoning for it. They never did send - we were not getting parts and they knew that we were going to be - that the Flying Tigers were going to disband on the 4th of July - that was the end of the contract, but they still did not send active duty people over there to replace the ones that we were losing, and that required Chennault then to ask for volunteers to stay an additional two weeks combat, instead of quitting on the 4th of July when it did. During that two week period we lost two outstanding pilots, Petach and Shamblin, that would probably have been on their way home, and Bob Neale - I forget how many volunteered to stay for an additional two weeks, but Bob Neale was one, he was a top ace over there too. We still did not get replacements in, even though they knew that we were going to be gone on the 4th of July and I didn't understand that either. FRANK BORING: Before we get too far into the last days of the AVG and meetings that you had, apparently there was a time when Stilwell came over, and you personally overheard a �discussion between Stilwell and Chennault, I wonder if you could relay that on to us. J. J. HARRINGTON: There were quite a few instances that came up during my stay in China with the Flying Tigers - actually a lot of them I couldn't comprehend, and I just mentioned some of the things between General Bissell and General Chennault that should not have come about - the two commanders. By the same token, the overall commander in the theater over there was Lieutenant General Joe Stilwell. He was placed as overall commander of the theater over there which encompassed the air corps and nearly everything else - it was operating in that theater. General Stilwell was strictly a ground soldier and General Chennault was strictly an airman and General Stilwell did not understand air power at all and I know that I saw them get into arguments. I was under the wing of an airplane one time and General Stilwell with his campaign hat on and General Chennault was out there - they were both a little foul mouthed when they got bad and excited and General Stilwell, he just told General Chennault, he said, "Claire, by golly the boys in the trenches are going to win this war yet." And General Chennault would extend that courtesy of letting General Stilwell finish whatever he had to say and how long he wanted to talk about it, then once he quit, then it was time for General Chennault to have a few words. He would sort of shake his finger in General Stilwell's face, and he called him "Uncle Joe", and he says, "Uncle Joe, what I'm trying to get through your head is, we don't have any men in the trenches over here and we don't intend to have any men in the trenches over here, and all we have is a handful of little airplanes." And that went on for a long time, and finally - not only did - General Stilwell didn't get along with General Chennault, he didn't get along with Generalissimo, and would insult Generalissimo, calling him "Peanuts", and when you insult the Chinese and they lose face, that's a horrible thing to do to a Chinaman. Generalissimo was one of the most �brilliant Chinese, I think, they've ever produced over there, and he knew what he wanted in the way of a military. It was how to go about getting it that he was striving for, and I know that the relationship between General Chennault and Generalissimo had always been real close, for the last five years, including the four they spent over there, before we went there - but any correspondence or any dealings with Generalissimo - it was "His Excellency" as far as Chennault was concerned. He treated Generalissimo and the madam with the courtesies due a head of state which General Stilwell, for some reason, did not extend that courtesy to a head of state even though he was assigned over there as the overall theater commander, but still Generalissimo was the head of state in China. FRANK BORING: Try and describe for us the what the last days of the AVG was like, going to the induction boards, and the mood of the AVG in terms of fatigue, and then this thing with Bissell and now they're going to this induction board system. What was the mood like? What was the morale like? J. J. HARRINGTON: As we were still down at Kweilin and prior to going to Kweilin - when we were down there - we were coming to the end of our tour of duty over there on the 4th of July, and as I mentioned previously, that Chennault did ask the AVG people that did not plan to stay over there, to extend for two weeks, which a lot of them did, and in respect to Generalissimo and the [?]. The problem that existed because [?] duty to fill the slots that were going to be vacant on the 4th of July, and the induction board came around and General Chennault was pretty much head of the induction board but then had a Colonel Homer Sanders that was active duty Colonel that came around with him, and at Kweilin, they set up office in a cave there with the operations and the ones that were there went in to see him and at the time I went in, General Chennault introduced me to Colonel Sanders as head �of the induction board. I knew Colonel Sanders because he was squadron commander of mine as a Lieutenant Sanders. So Colonel Sanders asked me, "Harrington, you're making a pretty big jump from a Staff Sergeant to a First Lieutenant and Chennault just butted in and told him that he had a letter on his desk from the Chinese Air Force headquarters that requesting I be transferred to their headquarters as a [?] and says, "I told Harrington that I'd probably get him a commission and if he doesn't get a commission, that's where he's going." He was setting the point down that really I was - I don't what I'd have done if I hadn't got a commission. I was going back to the States anyway. So anyway, General Chennault cut Colonel Sanders short and I could have told Colonel Sanders, "Sir, back at the time you knew me, you'd gone from a First Lieutenant to a full Colonel also," but I didn't, I kept my mouth shut. But anyway, they didn't say any more after Chennault butted in and when he hadn't approved Chennault's recommendation. So then I didn't see any more of the induction board, but later on, at the time we disbanded, someone came in to Kweilin after I got off work on line. I went back to the hostel where we stayed, I met this gentleman when I was going from my place over to the place to get something to eat, and it was getting a little dusky dark, and this gentleman - I can't think of his name now - he wanted to know if my name was Harrington and I said, "Yep" and he says, "Jasper J?" and I says, "Yep". He says, "Hold out your right hand," so I did, and he read the oath of office to me and I says, "I do" and shook my hand and said, "Now you're a First Lieutenant in the Army Air Corps. That was the first time I ever saw him and I've never seen him since. But he didn't have the courtesy of bringing me some insignia that I could put on. My job didn't change any, I still had my tool box and I still worked with the people on the line until we could get enough people left to support us. FRANK BORING: Could you tell us that story you were telling us… �J. J. HARRINGTON: I'd like to make a comment before you report. I'd like tell of an incident that happened a Kunming just before I went down to Kweilin. General Chennault called me in the office and wanted to have a talk with me. He showed me a letter from General Mow, requesting that I be transferred to Chinese Headquarters as a technical adviser. That was as a result of, as I've quoted previously, my contact with General Mow and going to Karachi to get the P-40E's and doing the work on the P-40E's after they came back into China. After reading that, General Chennault informed me that really, he'd worked with the Chinese for a long time, and pretty much knew the requirements and the situation I'd be in and requirements that I'd have to live up to if I went over there by myself. After considering the situation - I was familiar with the personnel man at Chinese headquarters anyway - I told General Chennault that I would really prefer to stay with the American troops, and we let it go at that. FRANK BORING: I wonder if you could just make a quick comment on - you had heard a speech that Churchill had made about the fighters in the Battle of Britain, and that the AVG was compared by Churchill to the men in the Battle of Britain. J. J. HARRINGTON: The RAF? There had been a lot of quotes and statements made by a lot of important people as far as I'm concerned. I remember one particular quote of Churchill and he was making a comparison of the Flying Tigers that they were similar to the problems and the odds that the RAF went through in the Battle of Britain. His approach was that it was similar, if not in scope - and of course, the RAF had a larger scope than the Flying Tigers, which was understandable, but they were similar as far as the activity and what they were up against. But the only thing I made reference to regarding Churchill's quote - I know he meant well, but he didn't go back far enough - I didn't want to take anything at all away �from the RAF pilots, that was undoubtedly up against odds, no fine, young - had ever been placed before, and they say the British people as a result of it - but the only difference, if you look at it a little bit further, at least when the RAF pilots were on the ground from a mission - but at least the slept in clean beds, clean sheets, and the mechanics - due parts, and plenty of parts to replace the old, worn parts which were on the aircraft at the time, and that was where the Flying tigers came up a little light in that we did not have the accommodations as far as the sleeping quarters are, the parts to put on the airplanes when they were worn. FRANK BORING: Can you describe the July 4th party given by Madam Chiang Kai-shek and Chiang Kai-shek, and if you could comment you've already commented on Chiang Kai-shek, but comment also on your impression of Madam Chiang Kai-shek. J. J. HARRINGTON: That was the party… FRANK BORING: The last party where you played musical chairs or something like that. Were you at that? J. J. HARRINGTON: I've got to say something about the Madam because she was a wonderful lady. FRANK BORING: Let's get that little bit first because I think that's kind of humorous, the day of the party boys and I think they were getting a big kick out of it. J. J. HARRINGTON: I'd like to bring up something about Madam Chiang Kai-shek, while we're discussing the Chinese portion of it. Madam was a wonderful lady and she told all of us that there were occasions that we were her boys with or without wings, and she was just a gracious lady, and she visited the areas where the Flying Tigers were. On one occasion that she had a party for the Flying Tigers, for the work they did and they �accomplishments as far as reducing the Japanese inventory of aircraft that were flying over Rangoon, and just to give thanks to the Flying Tigers for all they did in supporting the Chinese cause. It so happened that the time they had this party, the 2nd and 3rd squadron were at Kunming and they had a party and there some - I understand it was a nice party except we were down at Rangoon fighting for our lives down there about eight or nine airplanes, fighting the rest of the Japanese air force. One other time that they did have another party at Kunming and that was the deactivation of the Flying Tigers it was going to be deactivated on the 4th of July, and Madam Chiang Kai-shek had this party which was a nice thing to do. As the night went on and it was nearing midnight, everybody was counting the minutes to the end of the contract that we had with the Chinese government and counting them right on down to midnight, except that was the 2nd and 3rd squadron. The 1st squadron was fighting for their lives down at Kweilin because we were the only combat to combat duty in all of China at the time. So anyway, we were referring to the 2nd and 3rd squadron as - they took care of the social activities, the parties for the entire group, sort of left the 1st squadron out on the side. We remind them about that once in a while. FRANK BORING: The last few days in Kweilin, you said that there still was battle activity going on. Can you give us an idea of what that was like the few days? J. J. HARRINGTON: During the actual last days of our contract, it was still at Kweilin, the Japanese knew exactly when the Flying Tigers were going to disband the unit and quit, but I don't think they knew that they were going to get volunteers to stay with the unit for another two weeks, and we were still down at Kweilin - that was a hectic time for us because the Japanese were still coming out of Canton and then they would still run flights out of Hankow into Hengyang and Ling Ling to do what damage they could in that area, and so really the activity �intensified the latter part of the time of the Flying Tigers was - and being over there, and then past the 4th of July is when these additional people stayed on and volunteered for the additional two weeks, the Japanese knew when the contract was up, they would not be any more Flying Tigers in that area, and the 5th of July, they went out and intensified their bombardment and activity, and try to knock out these unskilled pilots, and probably come over there and take over the Flying Tigers, but they were a little disappointed when they found they did have material pilots and people with a lot of know-how in control of those P40's, so I think they were quite surprised when they ran into that situation. FRANK BORING: What was your impression of the new personnel… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Harrington_JJ_1991-06-10_v12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrington, Jasper J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-10 Title A name given to the resource J. J. Harrington interview (video and transcript, 12 of 14), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of J. J. Harrington by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Harrington served in the AVG as Line Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." After experiencing some confusion with his recruitment for AVG and discharge from the U.S. Army Air Forces, he traveled to Rangoon, Burma where he was met by Col. Chennault. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Kunming, China. In this tape, Harrington describes the last days of the AVG and the morale among the Flying Tigers at the time. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/54a8438c47260734d822fb6a19953292.mp4 80e4fce75e20789f1b4629c4986b3453 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/639f948bbd6b0d54213c768f12388462.pdf 1499e9909197b45cfae6eac07c9e0a5e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Jasper “J. J.” Harrington Date of Interview: 06-10-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 13] FRANK BORING: I wonder if you could give us your impressions of the new personnel that started to come in to replace the AVG towards the latter part of the two weeks. J. J. HARRINGTON: While we were still down at Kweilin, as I mentioned, I did get discharged really from the Flying Tigers and accepted in the regular air force, then the extension of the two weeks of quite a number of people that Chennault asked if they would extend it to regular duty - that people could come in. We were not getting regular duty people in and at the end of the two weeks - and then all of the Flying Tigers left., we were down to the bare bottom of the barrel, then we did start getting a few people in, the highest rank that we got in for a long time was a Staff Sergeant, and that was not sufficient, we should have been given a lot higher rank. To take over not only what we were doing but active military unit consists of more than just mechanics and pilots, you had specialists and stuff like that involved in it which we never did. We were being short changed on the specialist support that came in and I never did get rid of my tool box for quite a long time, and I was still basically the line chief of the squadron down there. Actually I don't think that they really started manned fully until the - it was reorganized into the 23rd Pilot Group and Tex Hill had the 2nd Field Squadron and Frank Schiel had the 74th and Ed Rector had the 76th which I was with down at Kweilin. The �76th moved back to Kunming and I was left down there by myself to repair [?] and try to get the airplanes that were still located there in shape so they could be flown back or maybe bring some of the parts like engines, back to Kunming. At the time, I did get back to Kunming, where the 76th had received additional personnel, manning, which did bring it up to what it should have been that it started with. But that was three or four or five months from the time that we disbanded, before we could ever get adequate manning of the organization. FRANK BORING: If you could explain somewhat of the difference in attitude between these new recruits coming in and the AVG spirit. J. J. HARRINGTON: When I think back over the personnel that we received, that came in, the active duty personnel after the Flying Tigers had disbanded, the majority of them were not as skilled in their specialties as we were when we went to China in the first place, and I don't really understand why the skill level was little bit lower than I had anticipated, but instead of working on their own like we did from the time we got over there, they needed additional help from somebody when they ran into a complicated job, and by the time I - and that remained in effect to just before I left China, that the units were manned as they should have been on the 4th, or 5th of July, the year before. FRANK BORING: I'm going to go through a few different points of people and incidents and whatnot and then we'll finish up with the last few questions. How did - first of all, a comment that you had mentioned in your interview, you said that one thing that Chennault wanted to do while he was out there was to stop the merciless killing of the Chinese civilian population, this is what he saw one of his purposes of being out there. Can you comment on that? �J. J. HARRINGTON: Actually a lot has been said about Chennault, from the time he received a letter from Generalissimo to go to China in the first place, and actually the goal that he had in mind after surveying the situation over there, and I would think that really, his goal - he had a burning desire to help the Chinese people and he'd seen - the four years that General Chennault was over there, he had seen a lot of horrible things happen to the Chinese people, and it was perpetuated on them by the Japanese, and one of his goals and it had always been, to relieve the pressure on the Chinese that had been inflicted on them by the Japanese, and really I think that he had accomplished a lot of that the time that he was over there, and to what degree that he would think he had accomplished that, I don't really know, but I think the facts point out that he did help the Chinese people an awful lot. FRANK BORING: If you could, two of your - at the very beginning of this interview, two pilots that you admired a great deal in the States that eventually became Tigers in the AVG, were Merritt and Mangleburg, I wonder if you could comment on the affect that it had on you when you'd heard they'd been lost. J. J. HARRINGTON: My experience in China, and we lost a lot of people over there, and I mentioned about Lieutenant Merritt and Lieutenant Mangleburg which were in my organization on active duty prior to the time I left to go to China in the first place… FRANK BORING: Just begin along that line - of Merritt and Mangleburg. J. J. HARRINGTON: The two pilots that I admired a great deal that I was associated with prior to going to China in the first place, Lieutenant Merritt and Lieutenant Mangleburg - they did all they could after they became Flying Tigers, and as far as I'm concerned, they did all they could while they were on active �duty in the United States Air Force, the army air corps at the time, and we lost a lot of people over there, while we were over there, but those two officers at the top of my list - of the people that - I later heard - to lose - because I had known them longer than others, also I thought that Lieutenant Merritt and Lieutenant Mangleburg had really not been given a fair shake really, and I don't think that their capabilities were fully utilized while they were on active duty in the army air corps because I was personally aware of the capabilities of those two officers. I thought they were both outstanding. FRANK BORING: Comment if you will on a friend of yours, a person you worked with, who had the nickname, "Herman the German." J. J. HARRINGTON: I would like to make a few comments regarding unusual incident that happened in the Flying Tigers, and that was appeared on the scene a guy by the name of Neumann, and he and his mother were in China, and they'd lost all this family in Germany when the Germans made their… FRANK BORING: Stop, stop… J. J. HARRINGTON: That was not really a problem in the communication between me and Herman because the things that we were talking about finally were things of maintenance and repairing the machines, and that he thoroughly understood. FRANK BORING: We'll start from the top with Gerhard Neumann. J. J. HARRINGTON: Herman. I'd like to make a comment regarding some of the personnel that Flying Tigers were associated with while I was in China and I was surprised to learn when I was in Kunming and I met Gerhard Neumann and come to find out that he was an outstanding engineer, he was a good mechanic, and fortunately he was assigned to the 1st squadron, and I thought - Herman, we used to just call him Herman the German - but �he fell in good and got along good with everybody in the squadron and he did his share, not only the maintenance work that had to be done - hours were no problem because we never did go by any type of hours done, we'd just work until the job was done, then we'd just quite until the next day, and if it took all night to do it, that's what we did too, and Herman just fell right in with everything that we had to do and he was liked and respected by everybody, and there will always be a warm spot in my heart for Herman the German as a result of our contact and association. FRANK BORING: During the last two weeks, one of the men that had actually married one of the nurses from the AVG, Red Petach and Petach himself, Petach got killed. I'm just wondering what kind of reaction you had, what you observed to the death of Petach. J. J. HARRINGTON: What was that nurse's name? FRANK BORING: Red, she was Red Foster. J. J. HARRINGTON: In looking back over some of the personnel, that were members of the Flying Tigers organization, and going back to the end of the contract, and things seemed to be going along real smooth and coming up to the end of our contract on the 4th of July, we had a couple of members of the Flying Tigers, a guy named Petach, he married one of our nurses, and we just referred to her as Red, her last name was Foster - they were two wonderful people and they were liked and appreciated by all the members of the Flying Tigers Association, and at the end of the contract, we did not have sufficient active duty military people to take over the responsibilities and operate the equipment that we had hoped for, and General Chennault had asked for volunteers if they would extend for two weeks active duty until such time as the active duty army air corps could get some people in there. I �forget the number of people that actually volunteered for additional duty but one of those that did volunteer for additional duty was Petach. He was a pilot and he was married to one of our nurses, we always just referred to her as Red, and on the mission, during this two weeks active duty, then Petach was killed along with another pilot, Shamblin, and that was one of the horror stories that we encountered during the time that we were in operation for a year over in China. As far as Red, she was just an outstanding nurse to everybody over there and Petach was just as fine a gentleman as you ever want to meet. So the loss of Petach put a deep cloud on the deactivation of the Flying Tigers. It did more to put a cloud than any one item than I can think of at this time. FRANK BORING: If we could just have a few comments or stories that you may be able to tell us about a man they called Tex Hill. J. J. HARRINGTON: In thinking back on some of the personnel that were with the Flying Tigers, I'm always reminded of one individual with the name of Tex Hill. He was in the navy at the time he started and went with the Flying Tigers, and he was operating off the aircraft carrier at the - Tex was the son of missionaries in Korea… FRANK BORING: We have his whole background… what we're looking for mainly is your - something you can remember… J. J. HARRINGTON: We went over on the same… FRANK BORING: Just one story? Is there any one story that you can think of that - about Tex? J. J. HARRINGTON: Can you cut that off for a minute? I have so many of those it would be difficult to relate to specifically to what but he and I went over on the Bloemfontein together and he was one of a kind, you'd never see another one like him. He was just like - �Johnny Allison talking about Tex Hill - him [?] with a Zero on a collision course and just lucky that Zero blew up, before him and Tex just run together but that happened after the Flying Tigers, but John Allison says he was hoping that Japanese would break off. "I know darn well," he said "that Tex was so bull-headed that he wouldn't break off for nothing, he just went right to get him," and I guess he would, he's just that type of individual. But I don't really know of anything, see, he was in one squadron and I was in another when we were over there, and even though we worked - I worked on a lot of Tex's airplanes and just like that little item that I quoted about when Tex went up to Hankow, taking off from Hengyang and going up to Hankow, then missing the turn to go back to Hengyang. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Harrington_JJ_1991-06-10_v13 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrington, Jasper J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-10 Title A name given to the resource J. J. Harrington interview (video and transcript, 13 of 14), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of J. J. Harrington by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Harrington served in the AVG as Line Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." After experiencing some confusion with his recruitment for AVG and discharge from the U.S. Army Air Forces, he traveled to Rangoon, Burma where he was met by Col. Chennault. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Kunming, China. In this tape, Harrington discusses his impressions of the new personnel that arrived to replace the AVG during the two week extension and their differences in attitude in comparison with the Flying Tiger spirit. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e2f23bcc75fc94f3a8070afe59df5472.mp4 af0d401eaf01aea13f2a730d3bbe490a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ade48d179094be0fc3461cb60c0324a1.pdf 6240387a20a48328b8da554e71caa8c8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Jasper “J. J.” Harrington Date of Interview: 06-10-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 14] FRANK BORING: What do you think the AVG accomplished in its brief history? J. J. HARRINGTON: I think the AVG accomplished an awful lot during the years that they were in existence in the China theater. One thing that it brought out loud and clear that the air tactics and strategies that General Chennault had tried to teach over the many, many years was proved to be fact and not something of Chennault's imagination from the time that he was in the service, and that was brought out loud and clear, at least, finally proved that he was right, regardless of the criticism he might have received over many, many years. I think it also proved that the air tactics that were used by General Chennault proved beyond a question of a doubt that you cannot have a ground force without air superiority to support it, and that was the big argument that General Stilwell and General Chennault had at length all the time. It takes a combination of two and I don't think air power alone can do it and I don't think ground troops alone can do it, but it's a combination of two will win out, and I think that certainly was proven in China as we did not have an active ground force and we did not have sufficient air force. It takes a combination of a ground force and an air force to accomplish a mission. �FRANK BORING: It was said in the beginning that the AVG wouldn't last a week. Why do you think the AVG didn't collapse and all the Japanese come over? J. J. HARRINGTON: The consensus of opinion of a lot of people in the War Department that the Flying Tigers were going to fold up - I don't think they really took into consideration the caliber of people that the Flying Tigers were made of in the first place, not because I was with - a small part of it, but the people that we had were the type of people that didn't say "no" and "I can't do it" - they put forth an effort and did what had to be done regardless of the time and hours that they took to do it, and one of the things too - after the Flying Tigers had disbanded, and I had gone to Chunking and checked with Skip Adair to finalize the number of airplanes that the Flying Tigers had of the original group that we turned over to the army air corps at the time we disbanded, so in figuring all these airplanes up, and I'm not talking about wreck of airplanes, I'm talking about operational P40B aircraft, and we finally came up with a total of 35 P40B aircraft. They were turned back over to the army air corps at the time we disbanded and at that time we were winding up our figures on this, General Chennault came in and we told him and showed him a list of the P-40B's that we originally [?] at Rangoon that we finally turned over to the army air corps when we disbanded on the 4th of July, '42, General Chennault's comment was, "I wonder where those people that said we would only last for a week became experts and how they became experts in the first place." So, he just said "That's good, that's better than even I expected, under the circumstances." FRANK BORING: What do you think the AVG accomplished in terms of the Chinese? �J. J. HARRINGTON: During our stay, the Flying Tigers' stay in China, we made an impact on all Chinese, whether they be Nationalists or whether they be Communist. As most people know, the Chinese at one time, were trying to fight one another and fight the Japanese all at the same time. They finally had a meeting of the minds and decided they couldn't do that, then nobody would survive and they joined forces to fight the Japanese, but shortly after the war was over with, then the Communists were better organized than the Nationalists were and therefore, that's the reason they took over at the end of the war. But while we were over there, we worked both with the Communists and the Nationalists and we won the friendship and the gratitude of both the Nationalists and the Communist, and even though we - I'd like to see a united China, the way it should be - and just like when we go on a tour - I've never been on a tour because of difficulties that I've had - but the tours that the Flying Tigers and still do make of China, the red carpet is rolled out at any place they ever stop. FRANK BORING: The next question, I want you to, in a sense, not worry about talking about yourself. So many of the Tigers we've talked to are proud of what they did - feel what you personally accomplished during that period and what effect did that have on the person that you are now. J. J. HARRINGTON: My own personal experience as being a member of the American Volunteer Group and the Flying Tigers - I can tell you one thing, I matured in a heck of a hurry. I was 24 years old when I left to go over there. I had never been to a foreign country, I'd never been out of the United States, and the closest thing I'd ever come to combat was maneuvers - but to get over and run into the situation that we did with the lack of parts, or no parts - initially I thought we were going to go over and maintain P40's and have support. When I get over there and find out that we're not going to have spare parts, we're not going to have support, you had to sit back and take �a hard look at the situation and just like I've said before, I think all of us matured in one heck of a hurry. When you get over there and start - and it's for real, it's not maneuvers, it is for real, and to run into a dedicated bunch of people, not only the pilots but the ground crew, I've never seen a more dedicated bunch of people in my life, and they could talk about what their - I mean about the caliber of people over there, but they were outstanding from one end to the other, and I'll always have a debt of gratitude for all of them to the day I die, and I think the feeling is pretty much mutual with the entire clan of the Flying Tigers. FRANK BORING: How do you react - how do you feel to be called a Flying Tiger? What does it mean to you to be a Flying Tiger? J. J. HARRINGTON: I take pride in being a Flying Tiger. I think all the Flying Tigers take pride in being a Flying Tiger and I'm sure I can speak for all the other Flying Tigers that we don't want some credit that's not rightfully due the accomplishments of the Flying Tigers. I think that we have accomplishments that we're rightfully proud of and that is all that we care about, but we do sort of take exception from the little nitpicking to reduce what we feel was our own capabilities, and for them to be exploited then that leaves a bitter taste in their mouth. But I'm proud to be associated with the Flying Tigers and I will to the day I day, and I think that we did accomplish a lot over there under the most adverse conditions of any actual fighting unit and the circumstances that we encountered. J. J. HARRINGTON: During my tour with the Flying Tigers - I had never been overseas, I'd never been in any type of combat other than maneuvers in the military and I might have had some illusions when I signed up to go China in the first place because I was not really briefed on the exact duties that we were going to be required to perform, and then after I did get to China and run into the obstacles that we ran into, I think �that we all matured real rapidly. I know that I did, very much so, and instead of throwing up our hands and saying we're just going to have to call this whole darn thing off, we can't make it. And as I said to a lot of people before, that anybody, regardless of the obstacles that they run into, if they have a can do type of attitude and if they work hard enough and long enough, they will accomplish something and by the same token, and just like when we first got over there, that we found out that ingenuity was not a lost art and we applied it. And so if you apply the ingenuity and if you work hard enough and long enough, you're going to accomplish something and the degree of it is how much effort that you put into it. I want to tell you more on how that did affect my life after the Flying Tigers. Most certainly it did, I matured in a hurry when I first got over there and we worked for a year and were pretty much in combat on a continuous type schedule, except for just a few break periods, and during that entire time we were over there, there were a lot of people quitting and coming home and people that I knew that I was very much disappointed in them quitting, but they did and that was a fact of life. I had always been a conservative, I was a conservative before I went to China with the Flying Tigers, I became more of a conservative after I was with the Flying Tigers until what could be done if you apply yourself, and that benefitted me in later years, and after I came back to the States, by then I was still in maintenance - until the main time in the service, but then when I came back to the States [?] and of course I was on the line getting acquainted and this airplane was out of commission, I mean out on the line, so I asked him why this had an electrical problem and I said, Are you doing anything about it?" and they'll be waiting on an electrician, and I stayed for quite a while, had a lot of airplanes there and before I really started sort of stepping on the people that don't wait for electricians. I said, "You went to airplane mechanic school and you should be able to actually analyze a lot of these problems and not wait for a specialist. �That type attitude I carried throughout the entire service career and I know my last assignment was directed mainly through our headquarters [?] and that had all the reserve forces in it. I was in Germany at the time, I had received my assignment and those material losses [?] and I wasn't too happy about being assigned to [?] I figured that would be the last step before you jump off the cliff and disappear, but anyway [?] was setting the table - we were having lunch - and I was griping about it. He said, "If you go into headquarters [?] you must have a pretty good report card. When you get over there take a look at your files and see if General - I can't even think of his name now but - Timberlake's initials are on your record, if it's not on your record, you wouldn't have been going to [?] in the first place. He left the Pentagon - he has to go down and straighten out some of the dead wood." So I did shut up when I did look in Personnel and saw his initials on my record. I visited all the reserve units that they had in the system and at the time I went to [?] in '62, you got to thinking, if only half of the reserve forces and eliminate them, you wouldn't have lost any of your capability whatsoever, and my job as Director of Maintenance - I've travelled a lot and I want people to take a look at me and I want to look at their operation, because you can do business if you get personally acquainted. I knew that General Timberlake was going to back me up because he was a maintenance and material type anyway, but my primary job in this and all these units was to make sure that there was only one standard of maintenance and that was an air force standard. For so many years they had used a standard of maintenance up so high for the air force and a somewhat lower standard for the reserves, so my approach was that we only had one standard of maintenance and so we can forget about the other one. I mean we've got one standard of maintenance and that's an air force standard and I never did - in maintenance you don't get involved in politics and if that's the only purpose I had in mind - if somebody wanted to bring up politics in the reserve unit, I �told them you have to see General Timberlake on that. But basically that's what we did and I had to leave the service at 65 to do the disability. But now, I'm proud to say that the reserve unit can perform equally as well as I could do the units and that is the product of people like General Timberlake could get in and change it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Harrington_JJ_1991-06-10_v14 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrington, Jasper J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-10 Title A name given to the resource J. J. Harrington interview (video and transcript, 14 of 14), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of J. J. Harrington by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Harrington served in the AVG as Line Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." After experiencing some confusion with his recruitment for AVG and discharge from the U.S. Army Air Forces, he traveled to Rangoon, Burma where he was met by Col. Chennault. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Kunming, China. In this tape, Harrington discusses the accomplishments of the American Volunteer Group and the pride he feels in being a Flying Tiger. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec1da02afee306309dfe4f8e3e253717.mp4 37d2abfd8b5e12d462fe5254768d636b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75e1db8090a907e650a1ebbaf6cfd722.pdf ee4e6235f14443bee00b0a2cf07275d0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Korean War Jack Harris Length of interview (00:45:32) (00:00:18) Introduction & Pre-War Life  Childhood (00:00:18) o Born in Lucas, Ohio to a family of farmers in 1933 o Father was a bootlegger o He was seven when World War II started  Education (00:01:38) o Attended High School in Buckley, Michigan, south of Traverse City o He then went to Michigan State  Remembering World War II (00:02:30) o He remembers seeing newsboys selling extras right after Pearl Harbor was attacked o His father entered the army, serving in Italy as a cook in Patton’s army  Korean War Era (00:04:35) o He finished high school in 1951 o Jack was in the ROTC while at Michigan State o He struggled with college and eventually dropped out and was almost immediately was drafted into the army in April of 1953 (00:06:00) Training  Jack went to Camp Atterbury, Indiana, for basic training (00:07:55) o He remembers it being a rather active training camp, having maybe as much as 30,000 troops there at one time o Jack had sixteen weeks of basic infantry training  How to throw grenades, shoot a machine gun, how to use a bayonet, and rifle training o He remembers having no fear of going to Korea  He was in his fifteenth week of infantry training when news of the armistice came (00:09:25)  He was on a march to where they were going to bivouac when a jeep came up and the driver announced “it’s over”  Jack remembers that after the armistice, training was pretty loose and the army had difficulty with discipline (00:10:04) o He remembers that discipline was relatively lax to begin with o Jack also remembers some corruption at the camp, with the officers giving men leave and then renting their cars to them so they could travel to Detroit for $50 to $100 a piece  Most of the camp cadre had been to Korea (00:11:37)  Jack remembers there being propaganda that they were soon going to have to fight the Russians and they had to be ready, however he and most of the men knew this wasn’t likely to happen (00:12:16) � After basic, Jack was assigned to keeping the fires going in a coal fire furnace that heated the barracks (00:13:00)  Jack was interviewed by a corporal, who was trying to figure out where to send him (00:14:08) o During the interview the two built a rapport and the corporal moved him from the list of men being sent to Korea to the list of men being sent to Europe (00:15:15) Atlantic Voyage and Active Service  He reported to Camp Kilmer, New Jersey, getting there by train, before being sent to Europe on a troop ship (00:15:20) o Spent ten days crossing the Atlantic o He remembers the weather being spring-like o Jack was sea sick for some of the voyage  They landed at Bremerhaven, Germany where the men were then dispersed in Germany (00:16:37)  Jack was sent to Frankfurt, Germany (00:16:56) o Germans were very friendly towards Americans o He was a part of a German-American club, which was a social club with German citizens, American serviceman, and German students  He was assigned to the 4th Infantry Division (00:17:40) o Jack doesn’t remember himself as being a very good soldier, never making it farther than private first class  Jack was assigned to division ordnance, where they had him keep track of where all the division’s broken down vehicles were (00:18:35)  He stayed in what had been a German barracks in Frankfurt (00:19:25) o He recalls going by the opera house, which was a shell of a building, having been hit with fire bombs during World War II o There was still a lot of destruction left over from World War II despite the rebuilding that was going on  They were on combat alert at least once a month, treating the alert as if war had been declared (00:20:55)  Jack had thirty days of leave that he used to travel Europe (00:21:27) o The cost of travel was very little with his military pass o Jack also remembers the black market being big in Europe at the time and the American dollar having high value  Jack served with primarily other draftees who were quickly processed and discharged (00:23:00)  Jack remembered having a Major who was reverted back down to Sergeant First Class after the Korean War (00:23:34) o Promotion could be rapid in war time, but with the war over the Army was diminishing in size and there were a lot of cut backs  Having grown up in Northern Michigan, Jack’s service in the Army was his first time around African Americans (00:24:15)  Jack recalls more of his training o He recalls half of the men in his basic training group were from poor African Americans from Detroit o He remembers getting along with the other men well � Prostitution was wide-spread in Germany due to the lack of jobs (00:26:20)  Almost all the officers and non-commissioned officers had German girlfriends, which were called “Class B Dependents” (00:26:40) o Not all of these women were prostitutes however and some serious relationships did develop  Jack never really learned much German, because most of the Germans spoke English (00:27:40)  Jack was deployed in Germany for a year, roughly half his time in the service (00:30:00)  He was anxious to get out of the army, because he knew that he had the GI bill to take advantage of when he returned home (00:30:20) o The GI bill paid for his education nearly all the way through his master’s degree o He remembers the GI bill wasn’t a lot of money, but due to the relatively low cost of college, that didn’t matter (00:32:20) Returning Home and Post-War Life  Although some of the men were flown back to the United States, Jack had to take a troop ship home (00:32:30)  Jack was discharged in Chicago at Great Lakes Training Base, having disembarked from New Jersey and taking a train to Illinois (00:33:07)  He immediately returned to college after being discharged (00:33:50) o Jack was a much better student this time as he was more mature and serious about his education o Initially, he went to a community college in Traverse City, earning an associates degree o Jack returned to Michigan State where he earned a baccalaureate degree in political science and a teaching certificate  Jack spent his first five years as a teacher, first teaching government and then later English and social studies (00:35:46)  Making very little money, Jack took a series of different jobs (00:36:38)  Jack eventually returned to education after returning to school and earning a master’s degree (00:37:14)  Jack feels that his time in the Army was beneficial for him, especially because of the GI bill, although he didn’t enjoy it at the time (00:38:15)  He remembers that during the Korean War Era, he and most of the other men viewed the war as “the right thing to do” (00:39:10) o Jack did not feel the same way about the Vietnam War and shared the growing sentiment that it was “not the right thing to do” o He recalls Kent State happening during his years in graduate school and demonstrating in Washington � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HarrisJ1716V Title A name given to the resource Harris, Jack (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-12-16 Description An account of the resource Jack Harris was born in 1933 in Lucas, Ohio to a family of farmers. His family later moved to Michigan where he attended high school in the town of Buckley, graduating in 1951. He later attended Michigan State for a time, but left before finishing a degree. In 1953 he was drafted into the Army, where he took basic training at Camp Atterbury, Indiana. During his training, the armistice was signed, ending the Korean War. After training, Jack was sent to Frankfurt, Germany where he was assigned to Division Ordinance in the 4th Infantry Division. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harris, Jack Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cc571b8ca888f772c01e656c2c6716ff.mp4 60d923946aded01ae8e32b34219e9597 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3572081f85593ed295e550631fbba53c.pdf 5e11726c3cb06aebbf4862dd33eda674 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam Jim Harris Total Time – (01:17:00) Background • • • • • • • • • • He was born in South Dakota on December 29, 1941 (00:27) When he was eight years old, his family moved to Minneapolis He graduate from Richfield High School in Minneapolis in 1959 (00:37) His father was a physician o He grew up expecting to a doctor as well (00:51) He attended Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota (00:57) o He majored in chemistry o He was a captain on the wrestling team Growing up he had some thoughts of going into the military o Having a family and being in the military appeared to disruptive for him (01:20) He graduated from Carleton College in 1963 (01:28) In Fall of 1964 he started at the University of Minnesota Medical School where he eventually graduated from in June of 1968 (01:37) The military, at this point, was not taking anyone directly out of medical school (01:58) He had four years of medical school and one year of internship (03:04) o He finished his internship in 1969 Enlistment/Training – (03:13) • • • • • • • He had orders to report – he had been drafted (03:18) o He had taken his physical before he was done with his internship There was an assumption that the military would use him as a doctor (04:13) He is sent for training at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio, Texas (04:14) o At training, there were field drills as well as classroom work In basic training, the military did not expect the doctors to be like everyone else (05:03) He is kept at Fort Sam for six weeks Nearly everyone in his unit had received their orders to report to Vietnam before they had finished training (05:24) There were a couple hundred men in the classes together (06:06) �• • o They were pretty much herded through the process He had orders to report to Vietnam o They had a week of leave before they were sent After his leave, he planned on taking a bus from San Francisco Airport to Travis Air Force Base where he would leave from (06:49) o The bus traveling to the base had sold eighty tickets for fifteen seats o The last ticket on his plane to Vietnam was given to the guy in front of him (07:11) Active Duty – (08:04) • • • • • • • • • • • • He then took a plane from San Francisco, California to Hawaii (08:08) o The plane refueled at Wake Island before going to Tan Son Nhut, Vietnam (08:26) He landed in the middle of the night o It was quiet when they landed After they landed, all of the soldiers loaded up onto buses to go to Long Binh, Vietnam (08:49) o Here they filled out all of their paperwork He then caught a ride to the 44th Med Brigade (09:07) His assignment was the 2nd Mobile Army Surgery Hospital in Lai Khe, Vietnam (09:13) His first impression of Vietnam was that it was not very much different than he expected o It was somewhat difficult to adjust to the military life but not necessarily to Vietnam (10:28) o It was the realization that he was in Vietnam that was strange He remembers talking to a Medic that was at Pearl Harbor and all he could say was that “it was awful” (11:30) o It is hard to be able to fully relay the experience to someone that was not there o He does not have the communication skills to explain exactly what it was like The reception in Lai Khe was typical o They lived in hooches (13:29) o The doctors got more space than other soldiers When he was there, it was a main base camp for the 1st Infantry Division (14:05) o The 1st Infantry was in the process of being withdrawn o Once the 1st Infantry got to a low level, the hospital was closed (14:24) He was at work within twenty-four hours of being there They took care of a lot of Vietnamese and civilian casualties (14:54) o There G.I.’s would come in during the evening There were very few casualties or injuries that were inflicted by the Vietnamese or American armies (16:00) �• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • o The majority of the civilian injuries were intentionally inflicted by the North Vietnamese (16:11)  They targeted the civilians to intimidate them so they would help them out The MASH Unit had three operating rooms and fifteen to twenty doctors (16:41) o There were also a couple of wards with nearly twenty beds in each one They did most of the stabilization The military did a good job of spreading the casualties around (17:04) There was an emergency room where there were six stretchers that were sometimes all filled up (17:19) The majority of the patients that he saw needed major amputations in their lower limbs (17:41) The Vietnamese are sent to Vietnamese hospitals for stabilization They had heard that the Vietnamese hospitals were not very good (18:03) Sometimes they cared for North Vietnamese prisoners (18:07) The North Vietnamese were treated the same as everyone else (18:38) o There were Military Police (MPs) with the NVA soldiers at all times  The MPs were there to protect the NVA soldiers from other patients or soldiers (19:06) Beyond the fifteen doctors, there were some extra technicians, lab people, three anesthesiologists, and some others (19:42) o There was a nursing staff as well (20:02)  There were male and female nurses From where he was, he knew that Nixon was pulling soldiers out, but they did not know that he was trying to pull everyone out (21:56) o The morale of the soldiers on the field was poor o He was busy enough taking care of patients that he did not pay attention to many other things There were not many interesting places to visit off the base (22:34) He spent the majority of his time on the actual base He was able to stay in contact with those at home through letters and a tape recorder (24:04) He stayed with the MASH unit for roughly three months (24:13) When the MASH unit was taken down, he was transferred to Phu Loi, Vietnam (24:21) Phu Loi was the head air strip and a maintenance base His job at Phu Loi was one of two physicians in dispensary that would function as an office that would take sick calls (24:45) o There were several thousand people on the base There was not very much enemy activity at Phu Loi (25:39) They treated mostly American military people and occasional civilians (26:08) He was at Phu Loi for a couple of months when he heard that he was going into the 101st Airborne Division (27:25) He never recognized the drug abuse if there was any around him o The soldiers realized that they could not come to work drugged �• • o The soldiers were doing their jobs properly (28:32) He moved to the 101st after the middle of May He joined them at Camp Evans (30:08) Active Duty – Firebase Ripcord – (30:12) • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • He then went with his unit [2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry] to Firebase Ripcord (30:22) o He knew very little about Ripcord at this point When soldiers did not go to the firebases, they would hang around aid stations and rear areas (31:36) Unlike many of the other soldiers, he was not resistant to going to Firebase Ripcord (31:54) As he approached Ripcord, it looked like a sand pile on the top of a hill The mountains were not high but they were steep (32:39) o The nearest American road was ten miles away o The nearest North Vietnamese road was four miles away The aid station was divided into three areas o There was one room that was just big enough for a stretcher o The other rooms were slightly larger – one of them held supplies and it was where they would sleep (34:25) At the aid station, he had a one year medic, several field medics, and himself (34:37) He gets to Firebase Ripcord at the end of May of 1970 At this time he had heard about everything, but they did not take much incoming resistance o He was told that “you are at the firebase, but the firebase is not the field.” (35:33) Before the siege proper began, he would go out on the hill and look around Casualties on the field were medevaced to other areas (36:18) o The casualties that he dealt with were those on the firebase He was able to get to know many of the soldiers at the firebase pretty well (37:09) The weather was perfect on top of the hill (38:16) Initially it did not seem like it was a bad place to be Around the 1st of July the first bombardments began taking place (38:50) o It was several days before anyone on the hill had been injured (38:52) Nearby on Hill 902, the Charlie company was being hit hard o Hill 902 was close to Ripcord o Some of his men had been in Charlie company (39:55) If medics were in the field for six months, they would try and pull them out (40:35) After the fighting on Hill 902, the last three weeks on Ripcord, soldiers rarely went outside (41:12) �• • • • • • • • His aid station was blown up by a Chinook Helicopter that had crashed (41:16) When the Chinook crash occurred, he was outside and could hear the impact of the bullets hitting the side of the helicopter (41:49) o He could see the Chinook falling and knew he had to get cover Before the Chinook crash there were many casualties that came in o They would receive them in bunches (43:40)  There were three days that were particularly bad o The casualties log book burned when the Chinook crashed (44:03) o He suspects that twenty men were killed on the hill and nearly one hundred were injured (44:13)  The hill only had roughly three hundred men As time went on, the bombardments occurred more frequently and they were increasingly more accurate Because the aid station was blown up, they worked off of large metal canisters that had aid supplies (46:51) o The used the TOC (Tactical Operations Center) as the new aid station (47:09) The aid station simply gave soldiers basic treatment before they were flown out He believes that it would have taken an entire brigade to reinforce them if they were to stay They were then ordered to pull out (48:52) Active Duty - Firebase Ripcord Evacuation & Remainder of Service – (49:24) • • • • • • • During the evacuation, there were still many casualties He remembers his experiences with Colonel Lucas that he was an excellent leader, communicator, and would give up his life for his fellow soldiers During Ripcord he was injured the day before they evacuated (55:06) o There were some casualties from a mortar round so they loaded them up and saw a mortar round hit where the helicopter was  He realized that the NVA would send the next mortar round right where they wanted it o They then loaded a second helicopter full of casualties  An NVA mortar round hit exactly where that helicopter had been (55:58) o He was running away from the site when he was hit in the back of the leg with a small piece of shrapnel (56:04)  He never told anyone about it until later There was a lot of confusion during the evacuation (56:55) There was a ten second time span between mortar rounds o Soldiers would wait for the ten second period and load up the helicopter and then take off as quick as possible (57:15) He remembers jumping into his helicopter and having to pull someone else on with him (57:51) He was in one of the middle crews to evacuate �• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • The helicopter that he was on had been hit with a frag and was leaking hydraulic fluid (58:20) o He landed in Camp Evans At Camp Evans, the soldiers just sat around for a day or two and then went back to work (59:22) He still had four months remaining in his time of service (59:57) He then went to Firebase Katherine for nearly a month (01:00:04) o He was then sent to Firebase Rakkasan before going on R&R for a week (01:00:12) On R&R he went to Hong Kong o He was able to go around and buy camera lenses, take pictures, and enjoy his time (01:00:55) o It was not very tough for him to get back on the plane to Vietnam (01:01:01) There were casualties after Ripcord, but the war had quieted down quite a bit There were many men that had jungle sicknesses and cuts on their hands from grabbing wildlife in the jungle (01:02:10) He was not expected to take care of the really bad situations Near the end of his service, the majority of the men in his unit were new (01:02:40) o It was a different war at that point (01:03:37) Many of the men realized that using drugs in the field would get them killed (01:04:01) o There was an amnesty program that began for soldiers for drug abuse Heroin showed up in his place in the beginning of September in 1970 (01:05:01) o There was no heroin use in his unit o Many did not realize that cocaine was addictive  Some of the men could not even stand up when they went into the amnesty program (01:05:26) o It was 95% pure o Many of the men thought that it was cocaine and did not realize they were snorting heroin o Soldiers could buy drugs just outside the gate to Camp Evans (01:06:09) o Drug abuse could not be prevented When he was at the end of his tour he was not counting down the days until the last few (01:06:56 He leaves around Thanksgiving of 1970 (01:07:25) He traveled from Cam Ranh Bay to Seattle and then on to Minneapolis (01:07:34) o He traveled by plane until Minneapolis and then drove home He did not experience any protestors at the airports (01:08:01) When he gets home he is on holiday leave On January 4, 1971 he had to report to Fort Lee in Virginia (01:08:14) o He was supposed to be there on the first or second of January but called to see if he could stay at home longer �• • He spent some time at Fort Lee before spending nearly four months at Fort Pickett in Virginia (01:09:40) o There was only one doctor at Fort Pickett o During the summer, it was a National Guard training area o He would treat soldiers with field injuries from field exercises (01:10:27)  There were men that had to be treated from breaking their legs playing baseball o One of the troops took part in a local rodeo and got gored by a bull (01:10:53) He virtually dismissed any anti-war movements (01:11:26) o They did not respect the movements After the Service – (01:12:35) • • • • • • His day to leave for home was in October of 1971 (01:12:41) He began his Surgery Training Program in January at the Hennepin County General Hospital (01:12:44) The Army did not make an effort to get him to stay in the service o He one day felt pressure when the hospital commander wanted to talk to him The Surgery Training Program was five years long (01:14:18) After he passed his boards, he started his own practice o He is still a practicing doctor in Worthington, Minnesota (01:14:42) He feels that war can conditions a person's attitude (01:15:24) o You have a different attitude of what is important and what is not o You also have a different attitude of what is risk and what is not � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harris, James (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harris, James Description An account of the resource Jim Harris was born in South Dakota on December 29, 1941, and later moved to Minneapolis. After college, medical school and a year of internship, he was drafted into the Army in 1969. He trained at Fort Sam Houston in Texas, and was then sent to Vietnam. He served initially in a MASH unit with the 1st Division at Lai Khe, and when the division pulled out, he was transferred to Phu Loi, and then to the 101st Airborne Division at Camp Evans. In May, 1970 he voluntarily set up the battalion aid station on Firebase Ripcord, and stayed there until the base was evacuated in July. He remained with the battalion for the rest of his tour, serving on several different firebases, and went home late in the year. He completed his enlistment at Fort Pickett, Virginia. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-01 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HarrisJ1445V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a1bda66d14e6843e00210a641a2191b2.pdf 7da93ae59ade883956fd2b01e582b03b PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Terrence Harris Interviewers: David Bauer, Eric Pete, Stephanie Homan and Victoria VanDragt Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/23/2012 Biography and Description Terrence is African American and Atheist. He grew up in a neighborhood that is predominately White, Christian. He discusses religion. Transcript The person were interviewing today is Terrence Harris from Grandville, Michigan. We’re going to start by having Terrence tell him about himself. Let’s see. I grew up in Wyoming. shoot. I was born in Grand Rapids. I lived there for about three years, then came to Wyoming which is like a bio-center. Then, I lived there for about eleven years, then moved to good ole Grandville. that was probably when I would say I became the person who I am now because of moving to Grandville. Did you participate in any activities in Grandville, extracurriculars, sports? Yep! I played basketball. I actually got cut from the 7th grade team in Wyoming when I was in Newhaugh. Which is pretty sucked, (Laughter). But, actually I liked Grandville after I made the team in eighth grade. So, I played basketball in high school for all four years, and I played track in high school for two years. How was the atmosphere for sports in Grandville? The atmosphere for sports? Well, pretty good. Not too bad. I would say as far as during the games or during the practices. Like what do you mean? Sure. Now lets just jump right in here. We’re interviewing you because you may have been discriminated. Can you tell us why you may have discriminated in a community like Grandville? Ah. (Laughter). It’s a funny thing and its ironic at the same time. Because when I went to Grandville I was instantly like because I was black which is very, very weird. (Laughter). It’s like “oh, you’re black you’re cool”, and I was like what’s up. (Laughter). I don’t know if it was more discrimination than just an annoying stereotype. I would probably say that was the biggest thing in Grandville. Was stereotypes and, then once certain people get close to you, like a lot of my white friends, when they get to a certain Page 1 �comfort level, then they’ll start to say certain discriminatory things that does not sound so hurtful since I know them. I guess they were just testing the waters to see how I’d react., eighth grade I was very immature. Ninth grade, I was very immature. Tenth grade, ehh. Eleventh grade, I just didn’t give a fuck anymore (Laughter). Twelfth grade, is the person I have become now. Did you ever call your friends out on things they said that may have seemed discriminatory? Let’s see. I would say I have a few times. I will try to not let it get to me. I wanna keep my composure and let them know that I’m not gonna flip out based on something like that. But, you know, after doing a lot of research, a lot of Africans will explode on a situation because of a lost identification of themselves. So, when they’re being branded, you know, something negative, they’ll reject it of course in an ignorant type of way. Like, so I saw this film and this black chick was tripping on a professor because he cannot prove why evolution kills black people. Did you see it? I heard. I actually was gonna watch it but my video player wasn’t working. I saw that and I was like oh my God are you serious and this is why people think all black people are the same because chicks like this. Just put her in jail (Laughter). So, even though some of the way treated had positive connotation did it bother you that you were treated differently at all? Oh yeah! Even though it appeared to be positive? Oh yeah! Yep! There is always gonna be that like üh why is it me type factor. Kinda playing the victims card. it was kind of more of a them getting under skin but I won’t let them get under my skin type of thing. I’m not gonna show that it’s bothering me. So, I’m just gonna keep it cool, keep calm, collective; you know, stuff like that. What were some things that your friends said that may have offended you without them knowing it. Oh man! Just the typical things. Fried chicken, big kool-aid, watermelon. I don’t like watermelon. A lot of people get surprised when I tell them that. Like people say, “why don’t you sag your pants?”. I don’t wanna sag my pants! (Laughter). And that’s why! Does every black person have to sag their pants (Laughter) in order to be black? It seems like there is a certain level of ignorance you have to be in order to earn the title of being black which I was like I’m not gonna snoop down to that level, because I plan on being successful. One of the biggest things that drove me to where I am now, is I told myself when I was twelve years old I would not be another black statistic. You know, going to jail, selling drugs, ain’t got nothing, hardly ain’t got a job. I said flick that! Why would I want to choose that way. So it sounds like you’re almost using your race as a motivating factor for you? Oh yeah. If I were to grow up in Wyoming, if I were to stay there I wouldn’t be the same. I probably would be just like another person that went to Wyoming Park. Not saying that there is not successful Page 2 �people or successful Africans that come or have came from Park, but Grandville was a huge motivator for me. What prompted the move for your family? My mom wanted a better educational system. Wyoming Park did not provide it and my mom saw that and said I guess we’ll go to Grandville, and I was like I don’t want to and she said too bad! Let’s go! (Laughter). All of my friends were in Wyoming, so I didn’t want to do a complete new start, but my mom saw the opportunity and she went out and decided for my sister and myself, and I’m very grateful that she did. Because I don’t know, to be honest I’d probably just be in jail if I would have stayed in Park. A lot of my friends in Park are in jail, selling drugs, ain’t doing much with shit to put it in blatancy terms. I’m a very blunt person. I tell it like it is. I don’t hold back. If you see my Facebook statuses, I don’t hold back. You know Eric. Very true! I don’t play. I’m gonna tell it like it is. Because I don’t believe in holding stuff back. Tm not gonna get to the core issue if, you know, I’m softening it up a bit. We’ll touch on Facebook later (Laughter). Now staying on the subject of education, have teachers ever treated you differently or made assumptions about you. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I would say even a little bit in Wyoming too actually. The thing is, with the teachers I didn’t like, it was kind of like I’m gonna try to work with you, but if you be disruptive a few times I’m gonna brand you, point you out every time, and get you nowhere! (Laughter). And I was a hard headed little boy. Oh my gosh. I feel sorry for the teachers that dealt with me. I’m not even gonna lie. I was a hard headed, knuckle-headed, bad...whatever. I didn’t care and then it carried on to seventh grade when I left, came to Grandville, and there were a few teachers. I’m not sure, I don’t know. Have you ever had Ms. Badgearna? No I don’t know. It was very I think she just hated us all. I mean she hated everyone equally. You guys can blank that one out (Laughter). No, Ms. Badgeama was really cool teacher. I saw her a few years ago and all smiles, nothing bad. High School, wasn’t that bad. I think,, they treat everybody just like it was a college course. Do your work or you’re not gonna get shit. Just plain and simple. High School wasn’t too bad. I think probably Elementary was worst. Would you like to go into Elementary at all? Elementary. Oh man! I remember one memory I have is; a friend of mine, Erika reminded me of this story the other day. I was in class, her name was Ms. Norman, and I just saw her at my job last week. Funny that that happened. Erika, a friend of mine, last week Wednesday told me about that story and reminded. The very next day, I went to my job and I went to get some tea because I love getting tea, free tea, you know come on! And I go to my job and saw her and said holy shit, we were just talking about you last night. And what ended up happening is she, I don’t remember much, like I said I was Page 3 �immature. You know, I had discipline but I chose not to show that I had that discipline. I wanted to act out. I was a little kid. I was a little black kid. Not too many little black kids, you know, stick out, can’t blend in. You’re already not gonna blend it when you’re black (Laughter). I remember I told her, I was like, ‘Man, screaming, you’re just doing this because I’m black”! And I was screaming and I was like crying and shit, but I don’t remember too much but I probably did that. Let’s see, we actually had a black principal in seventh grade, which wasn’t too bad. I think that was one of the only incidents that I’ve had. There were a few others of course, but I don’t remember it too much. Any incidents with coaches? Coaches. Or assumptions? Ahh, no. Fifth grade; there was actually like six black people on the team my fifth grade year. First time I played basketball. seventh grade, nope. I just didn’t make the team seventh grade because I missed the first day of practice. Eight grade I made the team so no prejudice remarks there. Then ninth grade throughout senior year, I performed. So, I don’t think there was much of any prejudice or....I was gonna say prejudice and racism at the same time (Laughter). Pracism! (Group Laughter) Going outside the walls of Grandville high school, in the city of Grandville itself, going to stores, gas stations, anything like that? (Laughter). Was it different for you or tough for you? Oh! I love it! I love when I went to stores in Grandville man! Those mother flickers always think I’m about to steal something. (Laughter). I come up in the store, and I carry my backpack with me everywhere because I’m a huge reader. I read anytime. You never know when you’re gonna get a book. You can be in the store when someone’s you know robbing it and I’ll just kickback and read a book; your ass is going to jail (Laughter). You know I carry bags with me everywhere... .or books in my bag. Oh man, and Grandville’s horrible. It’s horrible. It’s extremely prejudice. God! (Laughter). I can tell you stories of my brothers man, all throughout. It’s,, you gotta watch the eyes, and you can watch it if you’re by any African American; watch like other people’s eyes and you’ll start to see them, or use your peripheral vision, if you’re really good at that, and you’ll see them tend to look maybe do it again, look again and they’ll just do a little of it a few times. I think it’s subconscious. I don’t think they try to do it, but when Africans are portrayed on T.V. as nothing but thugs, gangsters, criminals, drugdealers, thieves, you know, of course they’re gonna think that then. That’s how they portray us in the media. So, that’s the first thing that they think. Any particular stories that you would wanna share? That stands out? Page 4 �Oh, that stands out?, I wouldn’t say Walmart. They pretty much hate everybody. It’s so depressing there. My sister used to work there. It was so depressing! She’d come home with stories and stories. I would say, probably like the local stores. Not too much the local stores. They have to have, or I think they have to have diversity there. So, they just deal with it. Oh! Jenison, good old Jenison. Oh yeah! Everything in Jenison. I ain’t even gonna label something. Everything in Jenison! A little bit in Hudsonville; not too bad. Not that I’ve seen so far because I’m hardily ever out there. I would say those three areas, and my house is right dabbed in the middle too. Did your family experience any of the discrimination or prejudice like right when you moved in to like the neighborhood for example? Not when I moved to when I first moved in, oh man those were probably the worst places I’ve ever lived actually. Not because of prejudice but the landlord was just awful, horrible. In Grandville? Yeah, Grandville! That was the first place we stayed there. I don’t think I’ve ever seen my mom that mad before. My mom is a black Christian lady. (Laughter). They’re supposed to be happy, you know, according to what you see on T.V. of course, and (Laughter). Man, it was horrible. My mom. I was like, “Mom, if you want, I will find somebody, get some drugs, put them in his mailbox and call the cops on him so he can go to jail. But that was just because he was such a shitty landlord. I would say, I don’t think I had any problem with like prejudice. It was more the stereotypes. Of course, you know, we had a few ladies my neighbor downstairs, she used stereotypes. She was like, she said she was trying to hook me up with her daughters, and she was like my daughters real cute and she likes black men. I was like, ok! Cool! I’m ironically black. Did you say that because I am black? How about, she likes an intelligent man. A man who knows how to handle his business; that’s mature; that can handle his own. Nahh, she just would like a black a man. (Laughter). Stuff like that. Like I said, it would just get under my skin, or not anymore. But, I would just brush stuff like that off. Not so much at the place I live now. Oh my gosh! There was this guy who was Hispanic that made the best steak though! Oh my gosh! His name was Robbie too. His steaks were so good! He got deported, but I was so mad, I was so mad. (Laughter). Where do you live now? I live right down the street from where I used to live; Brook Meadow. It’s not too bad. yeah actually that place is not too bad at all actually; it’s a pretty nice place. I don’t think I’ve dealt with anything dramatic there. Now, we met up and our group met up and talked a little bit before this interview, and you told us about a story about what happened in East Grand Rapids. Oh yeth! East Grand Rapids. Yes! Can you tell us about that? (Laughter). Oh man! We came. It was my brother and I. Will, and another guy named Will whom I met for the first time that day; a mutual friend of ours, Sky, and we’re in East Town, you know, just chilling at Page 5 �2 o’clock in the morning. And then all of a sudden, you see like one cop roll by. No big deal. You know, they’re just chilling. They’re always watching the area. Then, another one comes. It’s like 2:01. Another comes. A few more, wow! Something’s going on tonight. (Laughter). So we, you know are just joking around, stating the obvious, but joking about it. And,, they’re just there! They’re not bothering us, they’re just there, and that was the most annoying part. I hate when like cops try to be, like they know that you know that they’re watching, but they’re like you can’t do anything about it. Watch me not do something about it! (Laughter). Man, if I knew my rights back then I would’ve been like excuse me officer is there a problem? No? Pardon me for saying this but get your ass up out of here, or something like that. Man, I think someone probably called the cops on us. We were just chilling though. No, nothing. Weren’t making any trouble, just two in the morning; nothing! But they feel the need for four PT Cruisers or bring like the SWAT team or something. Mr. President, Mr. President! (Laughter). On the subject of that, have you ever had any run-ins with the law, or have you ever had to deal with police officers? Oh my gosh! Look at Grandville man! Of course! Of course! I hate Grandville cops! I’ll get that on the record. I hate Grandville cops. They are the most prejudice mother fuckers I’ve ever met. I got, I say that and when I say that it bs me so much because that gets under my skin. They take their power for abuse so much, and all the one’s I’ve met so far are complete pricks, assholes, and they’ve probably crash their cars a few times from being pricks. I remember let’s see, my brother Carlos was with me when this happened. We were just crossing a bridge and this guy in a PT Cruiser pulls us over and tells us that someone called the cops on us for throwing a rock over the highway. I said, none of us threw a rock over the highway. Backup comes. You know, of course they’ll come for a few black people. Check this out too. Side-note, when you see someone get pulled over, check to see if they’re black. More than likely, you’ll see another cop with them, but if they’re white, only one car. I’ve never seen that happen. I’ve never been around for that so far, anytime. Just watch, Just watch! But, so, the guy pulls up and they’re trying to t us against each other saying all these lies and stuff, saying he said this and he said that. They were trying to get us to commit to something that we did not do., something that I am not a fan of at all, you know, good ole divide and conquer technique. That was one experience. Another one was when it was the whole fam. Me, my brother Carlos, Will, Mo, other Carlos, my cousin, my sister, a few other people, and we were pretending. Now we went to Steak and Shake. We always go to Steak and Shake. They know us there. We practically pay the bills. We went there that often. We pretended to jump our friend Will because you know that’s how we do; we always play around. We actually went to Steak and Shake that night because all of our hearts were broken. My ex cheated on me. My boy, my brother Mo, his ex cheated on him. Will, he, well he was just happy. He was always the happy one! He’s always happy! Never gets anything bad happen to him. I hate that. Well I guess I don’t hate it, but fuck him! (Laughter). But so we were there for that reason, and later on that night, like 3 PT Cruisers, I’m talking about spotlights, flashlights, yelling. Like, dude that’s not necessary! They,, I guess someone in Steak and Shake called saying that we jumped someone and ran, but I was like no! They know us. They know us. We tipped pretty good there too We stopped tipping that night. (Laughter). But yeah they were a bunch of complete pricks. I got pulled over No! This actually happened a month ago. I was walking home from work. I saw a PT Cruiser drive down and then t around and drive back. Page 6 �I’ve seen them six times by the time I walked over the highway. Then, I saw another one because I was taking a note of the number behind the truck, and it was a different one. They went by another three times. Then, when was just getting across the street from where I lived, I saw another one come by and I was like really. I called my mom and I was like, if you don’t see my tonight that’s because I’m in jail about to beat some cops ass! Like that is not even necessary to go back and forth almost ten times. hat’s just, that’s just, I don’t know! Makes abrother wanna really do something! That, that, can you imagine how enraged I felt? To be you know kind of pointed out that strongly. Fuck the Grandville cops! So how many times, have you counted having any problems with police total? Psht, 8 that I can say off the top of my head. How many times have you guys actually done anything wrong? Once And what was that? smokin and drivin. Only time. What happen, would you say you were treated (Yeah) worse because... Actually no that was the nicest cop I have ever met from Grandville. He said he was going to let me go, until his prick boss showed up. And I know when he who he was too, he was the other one, he was the guy that pulled me over that night at Steak and Shake. He was the one that was yelling at us. I remember because of his mustache. (snicker) Yeah that was him, wow, I just now realized that. Buth yea it is, it is besides Grand Rapids cops, Grandville has to be the worst. What about Grand Rapids police makes them worse? I would say because their downtown, were a lot of the Africans are. And they, I feel like they have such a mindset that whenever you see a black dude in the hood, they say ‘get him, he is up to no good’. Grandville give at least one percent of the downtown, at least, Er,, Grand Rapids cops none. Yeah. When I actually went to jail,h, last year forh smoking and drivin, heh, one of the guys that I was with in my holding cell he said that we wasn’t doin nothing. He just got,h, for jay walkin. Jay walkin, Two in the morning. Two in the morning! Jay walking! For real? Take him to jail for that? WOAH! I didn’t know that you get pulled over for that. Haha I thought the most that they could give you was like a ticket. Like a fine. I think he didn’t know his rights, I think that what it was. I think heh,h, did a little selfincriminating himself, maybe he had a pass, maybe he had a warrant or something. But,h, but for jay walking. What is that? So go to jail, I was like dang man. When did you start paying attention to your rights and like your experiences with the cops and being able to stick up for yourself? Page 7 �Umm it was, man, it was like last year, soh, I would say after the judge after he told me aft... I would say, NO! it was my first probation check-up. I just got off probation yesterday actually Wooh! Congratulations. Thank you very much, never wanna do that system again.I would say right after probation because you know in my mind, Yeah. I should say in my mind I chose to justify what I did. You know that I shouldn’t happen driving while I was high but still don’t let, don’t even let me get started on why it should be illegal. Don’t let me get started. I will run, I will run every single fact. You know to Chad, who was my probation officer, why marijuana should not be legal. Or Illegal or at least decriminalized because it is just a herb. It will beat out the pharmacy industry (Snap) just like that, because you can grow it. Boom. There goes all these pharisaical industries that making millions of dollars off that. You know to keep us sick constantly. Now how many deaths has marijuana had, Zero. How many from overdosing on pills? I can’t count on my hands because I don’t have that much. What they say like ten people, or at least like 10 people die every hour from overdosing on pills? That’s a fucked up statistic right there. NowI started paying attention to after that, that mindset. And I was like, h something’s not right. Why are we, why am I kind of in this bondage right here. This is a system set up to fail. Not just for Africans, but for minorities. Or I wouldn’t say minorities because the people who concerned this land was minorities themselves. So I would say the natives. System set up to enslave the natives once more. Because Christopher Columbus he came here and how many Native Americans did he kill? Whoo. And then they want to label them the illegal immigrants. For real. Haha. So after that, after that I was like I need to learn my rights because the constitutional, or well our constitutional rights that we have or so called constitutional rights, I need to know those. Because I have no idea that I could have told the officer, no do you have a warrant to search my car officer. If I would have said that I would have been good. Constitutional rights. Did not know that at all. So I was like I need to start educating myself on the land that I live. If this is, if this is really a system set up to fail for myself I need to know, I need to learn the rules, I need to learn how to play the game. So at least learn how the game works and thankfully a manager at Art Van thath, that helped me understand that. I was like, yeah learn my rights, I learned a whole bunch. flaha. I learned a lot and that is what, now that I am off probation,I know my rights. And I know what I can and cannot do. And I cannot say, and I will exercise every single rights that I have. Haha That’s so good because I cannot say that I, that I know my rights, to where if! was pulled over or something like that. I kinda wondered the same thing like I didn’t know any of my rights at all. Until I would say some time last year me and a couple buddies were just drinking in the dorms and we didn’t even have to let the cops in. And like they were saying all this stuff like oo you have to let us in like making us like rethink like what we were doing like you have to let us in. Like if you don’t right now we will break down the door. We were like shit. You know they came in there we were being completely cooperative and gave them all the alcohol we had. And they still gave us all MIPs and shit. Mhm. So I mean form like that moment on we were all like shit we need to learn like all the stuff about underage drinking and all that. Just so that like all that stuff doesn’t happen again.uu. I mean I agree with you, I mean like it is almost like not just for minorities but the system sets up to fail you just... Page 8 �Anyone who is ignorant, anyone. I would say defiantly to that to, that was like abE. Like when you go to parties, you know people are freaking out. Oh my god cops are here! Cops are here! Everybody runnin, just dippin out. Yea and what they don’t know is unless they have a warrant they can’t do anything. Exactly. Yeah you give them permission to come in. That’s a whole different topic right there. Haha right. Shifting gears, you originally, yeah we are just going to forget Segway’s. You when back to Grandville High School recently and an interesting observation you told us about a few weeks ago, about the stair case. Oh yea man, we had, we called it the cool, it was where all the cool cats went. You know. Wasn’t even discriminating against no blacks whites man. You know blacks are supposed to skip because they don’t like to go to class. Minorities come and so we are all just chillin back over there probably abouthh two and a half months ago they sealed it up. And I know that I was because it was all a bunch of minorities there you know blacks whites also. and everybody was just chilling there. I would say it was race motivated but covered up very well. You know just like they always do with everything. Haha. It is very, you know it is a distraction. Well why is it a distraction? Because you just a talking too loud about standing there. Some people have KCDC they get out of class and they would just go and chill you know like right below the stairs. You know it’s not that much of a distraction, kind of like when I I think that they were afraid. Actually I think that some of the people on the staff were afraid of a littleethnicity. I have like when I have a keffiyeh I don’t know if you ever saw it but I have like a keffiyeh wrapped around just like this you know it is cold. Seven in the morning ya’ll got, ya’ll told me I had to be here at seven in the morning. I am going to wear something to keep myself warm. I’m sorry, I don’t wanna come here in the first place. Hah. Who wants to go to high school at seven in the morning. I remember Mr. Vanderslice started chasing me down because I was like no I’m not taking it off. NO! It was a shirt, it was a shirt on top of my head. That’s what it was. I had a shirt on top of my head. That’s stupid! That’s what I am saying! I had a shirt on my head, and one of the ambassadors, chased me all the way to my class just to yell at me. And you best believe that I did not just step back. I was yelling right back. Thankfully my mind, the thought in my mind was to check out the rules. You know, understand everysingle rule, and use that against him. I was like naw there aint nothing against that code book. Your wrong, it does not say that I cannot wear something on my head that’s not seven. Lets see school starts at 7:15 and it aint 7:15 yet. So I don’t have to take the shirt off. Couldn’t do nothing about it. School started at 7:50 7:50 yeah. Couldn’t do nothing about it, I was like ppht, what are you going to do? Violate it I dare you! Page 9 �So was the anything about the shirt, or was it just a regular shirt? Plain old white t-shirt man. I just wearin it on my head, just wearin it on my head. Now moving on to the keffiyeh. Which is? Which is Middle Eastern, soyou know automatic I am Muslim. So people think automatically he is a terrorist. You know lets get, it out of the way. Anytime anyone is wrapping a keffiyeh around their head, in fast the wrap it around their heads because there’s deserts snow storms, So in order to keep the snow, ornot snow Sand storms Stand storms yeah, so they want to keep the sand out of their face. Well its Michigan, it snows I wanna keep the snow out of my face. So I used to water that tornm, when I walked in, everybody’s lookin at me. Whats he doin? Muslim. He is a terrorist. Because that all the, that’s all the media labels them. So we see Muslim terrorist, let’s be honest, let’s be real. Hahah. That’s all they see. They made a big deal about that. I was like yo, it’s not 7:50 yet. I’m not taking it off. You know this is a, I’m not Muslim or Islam, buth I do respect their culture. It is part of my history because remorse. So as part of my history, I embrace all of my culture, not just a little bit of it. So, they couldn’t do nothing about that either. Fight the power. Yeah you mentioned like the media, and how minorities seem to be misrepresented in it.do you have any thoughts about how that could change or, if it can change? Oh man was have to go to the core then because how that started was actually a break off from the Crow laws. That is how they got that in there. They intertwined Jim Crows laws with the media so that whenever someone sees a black person the automatically, you know subconsciously he is up to no good. Yeah like stereotypes Yeah exactly. He is automaticallyh, you know a grand banger. He is automatically high as hell right now. He is black, he is supposed to smoke weed. Dark lips, big dark lips you know. Lie Obama, what is it with Obama, they said that he had weed lips or something like that. I don’t remember, but they they put that, they attached that stereotype to him as well. In order to beat something like that you gotta take down the media because they have control of the mass. Everybody watches TV, everybody watches TV. So if everyone is tuned in on this psychological brainwash machine. Of course everybody is going to think that black person, he aint up to no good, no good at all. So I would say yeah, to, I like to get to the very core of everything I don’t like to,racism isn’t here you know it is 2012 we all matured (In a sarcastic voice). Really? Did you just tune into the Zimmerman case? Why aint he in jail? He shot and killed a 17 year-old who had a bag of skittles. For one the dude was 28 years-old. He shot him dead in a gated community, which was predominantly white in Florida, And why isn’t he in jail. This kid was 17 years-old and he is dead, isn’t that murder? Supposedly he is the head watchman of the, you know the supervising, you know that watch ting. So to say that racism isn’t still here in the United States, that is Page 10 �ridiculous. Racism is still here. It is just in a different way. It is just like energy. Energy was never created of destroyed, it was transformed. Racism was BOOM right in your face, now it’s you know transformed into this thing called the media and I lables every single race, not just blacks, Latinos, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, even American, everything! They have got a label for everyone. And why are we trying to be labels, im not trying to be labeled. I wanna created my own identity. That’s the problem, nobody has their own identity. On the subject of identity, earlier you said you talked about stuff that was part of your heritage. You are obviously very proud of you African American heritage. And one way you show it is through your Facebook name. It is very unique. Would you like to tell us what it is? Oh yea that’s why I tell people anytime they wanna find me on Facebook, you will not find me. I will find you. Hahah. My name on Facebook is Brotha Taffiti Savo Hakeema Jafarr . And the reason why I chose that name was it is the name Hakeema is Swahili for wisdom, and I have that tattooed on my back from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. I believe in that so heavily because without wisdom, or the name Taffiti means knowledge seeker and Savo means order and Hakeema is wisdom so you know with the right knowledge and wisdom comes order, creating your identity basically. And that propelled me into what I want to do. It gave me a new foundation for myself. how to give like a new label for myself. And not even a label but to just know who I am period. You know, growing up as a child where are all of the black figures. There are hardly and African doll figures. Identity crisis right there. You know you want to get your niece a doll, but there’s only white ones. Not saying there is anything wrong with white ones, but why give a white one to a black one who is constantly seeing all this propaganda against blacks. You know, she has no idea who she is, she is getting this false identification of herself. So just right away that shows the importance of a diverse. You know be a little diverse. Why have too much ofjust one thing? Spread it out, shave to love. You know? Share the wealth, or at least get another black baby doll damn. Put that on the store shelves jeeze (laughing). Just change it up a little you know, that all a brotha can ask. There is one other thing about you that makes you unique. Especially for Grandville is that you are Atheist.and Facebook is the biggest, most notable way that you talk about it. Have you, has anyone ever called you out on it? Oh man we have a different idea that goes against the traditional or mainstream way, no everybody believes this, but that one idea that is controversial to everyone else. It was like what’s up with this guy. What’s wrong with him?I wasespecially, I wouldn’t say. Well I learned actually that there are different forms of Atheism. There is an Atheism that does not believe in a god at all, or super natural things. And there isthe atheism that does not believe in the three main traditional religions, the Abrahamic religions, Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. That came for a lost identification of myself. I grew up as a Christian, you know my mom told me that I was going to church, I was going to like it, no if ands or buts. As a little kid I was like I have to, and ah I went not because I wanted to but because I had to. And it never gave me a change tochose what I wanted to believe in. and the problem with a lot of religions, the problem I would say is just based on my research, a lot of people do not do research on religions or what they believe. A lot of people go to history. People don’t wanna research the dark things, the positive and Page 11 �negative. Everybody is looking as the positive, which is great cool, but if you’re not looking at the negative... Well remember if you do not know you history, then you are going to repeat it. People repeating history because of their lack of knowledge, with is also the Facebook thing. Every time a see Taffiti is motivates me. Knowledge seeker you know, that’s what I am. Keep studying, keep reading, keep bringing books everywhere. Nothing is going to stop me. And that was one of the biggest thing I ever had to do. Was let go of my belief of Christianity because it was a grips of fear if you do not believe in a doctrine, you are going to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Somebody raise they hands if they wanna go to hell. (nobody moves) Exactly! That was the biggest thing for me, I had to let go of the fear of risking my sole that is eternal in an eternal place where you die even though you are already dead. You di even more I guess. So I did a lot of research of the translations of hell You know all the translations of Hebrew of actually Arabic to Hebrew to Latin to English; you know studying all those words because I am a big studier. I study every single word, I don’t do broad things. If I am going to check Genesis 101 I will check every single word in every single translation. I will get the idea, I am not just going to go skating by. That’s what most people do, well I have the King James version so. Well did you know King James was a really wicked dude. He performed bestiality, he was extremely in to.. I forgot what it was. But the dude rewrote the bible to keep his throne in power. Now anybody that reuses, or rewrite something against his or against his people or against his power, not going to be like woah what did he change so he could keep his power? A lot of people change things, I like to get to the source, like I said to the core. And I found my identity you know the furthest that I have researched so far, which is Egypt, also the Comets. The traveled for Ethiopia to Sudan, followed the Nile River and the landed in Egypt, or Comet at the time. And that is the my belief system because that is the very core that I have seen so far and it may change. I love when my, what I believe in is challeneged, because that gives me the chance to learn because I get to see another area. So that yeah especially going to Grandville to, you know there morals are all white and Christian. But my joey spiritually has not started since last year. No it was probably about a year and a half. So I would say if I want to Grandville High School with the knowledge that I have now shit would be completely different. I would probably be in college right now. Well I would be in college actually right now if I didn’t break my wrist. Was there a certain like factor that like caused you to start studying and following Atheism? Umm I would say that, I would say that I am very passionate about the black community If there is somebody that doesn’t know this I love who I am. I love being black. I love being who I am not say that being not black isn’t cool. That is just who I am and I would say that I was I questioned what is wrong with the black community today. We are not educated, we do not know our own history, I cannot even find or think of any history class that taught me that starting civilizations in Africa. I had to figure that out on my own. They didn’t tell me that my ancestors where ancient Egyptians were astrology came forum, and mathematics, and a lot of the Greeks got their information from Ancient Egypt. Where Plato always referred to Ancient Egypt. I was not told that a lot of the three religions are deep rooted in African traditions. So I questioned that. And I didn’t really have a bone to pick with Christianity so I was really upset that no one ever told me what was really going on. Because my mom didn’t know, she didn’t ask those questions. My mom actually grew up on Rockford, Oh my god my whole family actually grew up in Rockford. Now they are my age, the grew up in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s so I don’t think that they Page 12 �had time to think about that, They were having a hard enough time just getting through the day in Rockford. So I questioned my community, and the thing is they were mentally brainwashed through generations and generations and generations of slavery. A lot of Africans don’t know that their ancestors were already here before Columbus was here. I’m not talking about the Native American. I’m talking about the Africans that traveled from Africa to America and was here before Christopher Columbus came here and slaughtered them all. There’s a Holocaust that’s worst then the Jewish Holocaust. They didn’t teach me that. I can’t even tell you how many of millions of millions Columbus killed. This mother fucker got his own national day! What is going on? I’m celebrating Christopher Columbus in elementary school and I ain’t learn that this dude killed how many of my people? Did that go over your head America? (Laughter). Oh yeah by the way you know. After that I was just like wow this is bullshit I wanna learn a lot. That’s what did it. That’s what sparked that into me and I was like I gotta make my brother and sisters, I have taken it on my own personal mission to educate as many Africans, brothers and sisters, as we can. Not limited to Africans but that’s my field of study right now. So that’s what I have to focus because if one particular group is lacking you know in success and everything then that creates an off balance you know? If I can be the foundation or the starting black for that to happen then cool you know. That’s very interesting that you say that you wanna try to educate as many African Americans as you can. What means or steps are you taking to do that? Right now? Learning. Only thing I can do. I can’t teach them if I don’t know them yet. So I have to learn every single thing or as much as I can at least. The history, all the contradictions, even what I believe I have to study the contradictions against that so I can make sure that’s the right information. If Tm learning you know everything started in Africa you know blah blah blah, and Tm being hard headed for that then if Tm not having any information to go against that, then I’m just blindly following this just because I’m solely for it but if I have you know a pro and a con, you know and I can make a wise or intelligent decision based on that fact you know then I’m pretty good for it. You know ask me anything that might contradict and I’ll probably know the answer to it and I can probably overcome that projection because that’s what I study. Have any of your friends that you have shared some of your knowledge with, what is their reaction to it? Are they interested in it? Do the believe it? Man, let’s see. I would say who? More specifically my brothers and sisters or like white friends I have? Yeah Let’s start with family I guess Oh I’m always educating my mom and sister constantly. That’s kind of why they’re upset that I’m moving because I have studied a lot I think and there hasn’t been a day in the past two years that I have not been studying. I am a hard core studier. I have a fiery passion to learn and a lot people don’t do that. Especially in the black community it is considered geeky or nerdy, or they will call you one of them smart niggers. What does that mean? I’m a smart what? So it’s not cool to know you shit but it’s cool to be in jail acting all stupid, shooting you own brothers and sisters, calling your sisters hoes, bitch. Calling them Page 13 �all these names that aren’t necessary, but yet that’s cool? For real? Dog you’ve been brain washed so good and I’ve been teaching my whole family and my mom and sister. Every time I have family come home from Georgia I always give a little bit more knowledge you know. Even going out to my brothers, my brother Carlos I’m always teaching him. Sharing stuff that I’ve learned. Even if it contradicts that he’s learned but that’s the best part you know? Not forcing stuff that I know in his head, but going check this information, what have you learned about this? Does it seem right? Does it contradict? Let’s get an answer for this. My brother Will, smartest mother fucker I know so far. I think it’s because he’s half black and half white. I think that’s what it is. He has the perfect balance. (Laughter). He’s very crucial, fucking hard headed, he has facts. He’s been home schooled actually. He’s been reading since he was ten years old. I’ve only been reading, legitimately reading, for like two years now. So I have an eight year gap to catch up to him. Motivation. Pure motivation right there. What about when you tell your friends of what you know? Black or white. Leave that to Facebook my friend. Facebook, like I said I don’t hold back. I say it like it is. Why hold back you know? I’m not gonna put like a band aid solution on things I’m just gonna tell it raw. In my past I’ve been very stupid and ignorant, and one-sided with my posts just because I was in that mind where I was rebellious or I was rebellious to you know Christianity just point blank, but that’s because I’ve always known you know? I’ve only met you know certain Christians that are like love Jesus, stop saying blah, stop smoking blah. devil is real blah, you’re going to hell you know? Well fuck you. Some were my family. Some were my friends. So it was a really tough time for me. So after that, I was like hmm let me re-think this? You know, I’m acting just like the people that I do not like. So i completely re-switched the way I come out with information and it’s actually helping out. People are actually seeing it from my point of view now. Questioning. Why? Why is everything like this? That’s the big thing, questioning. You don’t question, you won’t get answers, and when you question everything until you can’t question why no more. There you go. That’s the core. When you tell a religious person that you’re Atheist what’s the typical response from them? Oh, you know I don’t even tell people I’m Atheist. Actually, it’s so funny I was on the bus before and there was this white dude and I don’t what put, what, I don’t know. It was just out of nowhere. I’m just on the bus listening to my music. You know, jamming. Out of nowhere he goes are you Christian? Im like no. Why? And this is in my time when I’m like completely anti- Christian and I’m like blah blah I don’t wanna hear it. Stop forcing this shit. Get out of my face. Stop! Stop! You know, he was just like talking about Jesus stuff like that. I was like cool, cool. Stop forcing it down. Stop. I’m gonna tell you a little bit something about yourself or about your religion and you’re not gonna like it so chill, and he got off the bus. See, I said it nicely, you know, but that kinds of like what I was giving him. I dropped a little bit of knowledge and he couldn’t even understand what I was talking about. A lot of people don’t know about Jesus. What is Jesus? Jesus comes from, if you look at the history of words, Jesus comes from the Greek god Zeus and Jahova, the Hebrew word for god. They put Jahova and Zeus together and it’s Jesus. That wasn’t his name because he spoke in Arabic at that time. Arabic is basically Hebrew. The Hebrew word that they translated from Christ which was Greek for one who’s anointed his real name was Oshua. There’s no J in the Hebrew Bible so how can his name be Jesus if there was no J in the Hebrew Bible? Oshua was his name and he didn’t even know that. So I was like people don’t research their own history. They don’t look in those dark corners. Page 14 �Going back a little, back into the family issue, you talked about earlier how your mom is a dedicated Christian. More specifically, how did she deal with you converting to Atheism? I told her gently, slowly, very calmly. Me and my mom are extremely close. She is the only female who has not broken my heart. So I’m like big ups to you Mom. Single parent you know? My dad’s out doing his own shit. He was not a big factor in my life except for buying me a lot of shoes. Go dad! Thanks for the shoes. Like I said, my mom and I are really close so wow, that was tough. I was like, I don’t know how to tell you this Mom, but I don’t believe in what you believe in anymore, but I still love you, but I’m not going to hell because I know this. Don’t judge. But, you know, it was not tough, it was really hard actually. That was the probably the toughest three months I’ve ever had, was constantly thinking, how can I tell her without being extremely upset. My mom cried because Kia got a tattoo. Now, she is definitely not gonna like when I tell her I don’t believe in Christianity. I was like holy shit. So you know Kia has a daughter. Beautiful, beautiful daughter. So how many times, have you counted having any problems with police total? Psht, 8 that I can say off the top of my head How many times have you guys actually done anything wrong? Once And what was that? smokin and drivin. Only time What happen, would you say you were treated (Yeah) worse because... Actually no that was the nicest cop I have ever met from Grandville. He said he was going to let me go, until his prick boss showed up. And I know when he who he was too, he was the other one, he was the guy that pulled me over that night at Steak and Shake. He was the one that was yelling at us. I remember because of his mustache. (snicker) Yeah that was him, wow, I just now realized that. Buth yea it is, it is besides Grand Rapids cops, Grandville has to be the worst. What about Grand Rapids police makes them worse? I would say because their downtown, were a lot of the Africans are. And they, I feel like they have such a mindset that whenever you see a black dude in the hood, they say ‘get him, he is up to no good’. Grandville give at least one percent of the downtown, at least, Er,, Grand Rapids cops none. Yeah. When I actually went to jail,h, last year forh smoking and drivin, heh, one of the guys that I was with in my holding cell he said that we wasn’t doin nothing. He just got,h. for jay walkin. Jay walkin, Two in the morning. Two in the morning! Jay walking! For real? Take him to jail for that? WOAH! I didn’t know that you get pulled over for that. Haha I thought the most that they could give you was like a ticket. Like a fine. I think he didn’t know his rights, I think that what it was. I think heh,h, did a little self incriminating himself, maybe he had a pass, maybe he had a warrant or something. But,h, but for jay walking. What is that? So go to jail, I was like dang man. Page 15 �When did you start paying attention to your rights and like your experiences with the cops and being able to stick up for yourself? Umm it was, man, it was like last year, soh, I would say after the judge after he told me aft... I would say, NO! it was my first probation check-up. I just got off probation yesterday actually Wooh! Congratulations. Thank you very much, never wanna do that system again. Umm I would say right after probation because you know in my mind, Yeah. I should say in my mind I chose to justify what I did. You know that I shouldn’t happen driving while I was high but still don’t let, don’t even let me get started on why it should be illegal. Don’t let me get started. I will run, I will run every single fact. You know to Chad, who was my probation officer, why marijuana should not be legal. Or Illegal or at least decriminalized because it is just a herb. It will beat out the pharmacy industry (Snap) just like that, because you can grow it. Boom. There goes all these pharisaical industries that making millions of dollars off that. You know to keep us sick constantly. Now how many deaths has marijuana had, Zero. How many from overdosing on pills? I can’t count on my hands because I don’t have that much. What they say like ten people, or at least like 10 people die every hour from overdosing on pills? That’s a flicked up statistic right there. NowI started paying attention to after that, that mindset. And I was like, h something’s not right. Why are we, why am I kind of in this bondage right here. This is a system set up to fail. Not just for Africans, but for minorities. Or I wouldn’t say minorities because the people who concerned this land was minorities themselves. So I would say the natives. System set up to enslave the natives once more. Because Christopher Columbus he came here and how many Native Americans did he kill? Whoo. And then they want to label them the illegal immigrants. For real. Haha. So after that, after that I was like I need to learn my rights because the constitutional, or well our constitutional rights that we have or so called constitutional rights, I need to know those. Because I have no idea that I could have told the officer, no do you have a warrant to search my car officer. If I would have said that I would have been good. Constitutional rights. Did not know that at all. So I was like I need to start educating myself on the land that I live. If this is, if this is really a system set up to fail for myself, I need to know, I need to learn the rules, I need to learn how to play the game. So at least learn how the game works and thankfully a manager at Art Van thath, that helped me understand that. I was like, yeah learn my rights, I learned a whole bunch. 1-laha. I learned a lot and that is what, now that I am off probation,I know my rights. And I know what I can and cannot do. And I cannot say, and I will exercise every single rights that I have. Haha That’s so good because I cannot say that I, that I know my rights, to where if! was pulled over or something like that. I kinda wondered the same thing like I didn’t know any of my rights at all. Until I would say some time last year me and a couple buddies were just drinking in the dorms and we didn’t even have to let the cops in. And like they were saying all this stuff like oo you have to let us in like making us like rethink like what we were doing like you have to let us in. Like if you don’t right now we will break down the door. We were like shit. You know they came in there we were being completely cooperative and gave them all the alcohol we had. And they still gave us all MIPs and shit. Mhm. So I mean form like that moment on we were all like shit we need to learn like all the stuff about underage drinking and all that. Just so that Page 16 �like all that stuff doesn’t happen again.uu. I mean I agree with you, I mean like it is almost like not just for minorities but the system sets up to fail you just... Anyone who is ignorant, anyone. I would say defiantly to that to, that was like ahh. Like when you go to parties, you know people are freaking out. Oh my god cops are here! Cops are here! Everybody runnin, just dippin out. Yea and what they don’t know is unless they have a warrant they can’t do anything. Exactly. Yeah you give them permission to come in. That’s a whole different topic right there. Haha right. Shifting gears, you originally, yeah we are just going to forget Segway’s. You when back to Grandville High School recently and an interesting observation you told us about a few weeks ago, about the stair case. Oh yea man, we had, we called it the cool, it was where all the cool cats went. You know. Wasn’t even discriminating against no blacks whites man. You know blacks are supposed to skip because they don’t like to go to class. Minorities come and so we are all just chillin back over there probably abouthh two and a half months ago they sealed it up. And I know that I was because it was all a bunch of minorities there you know blacks whites also. and everybody was just chilling there. I would say it was race motivated but covered up very well. You know just like they always do with everything. Haha. It is very, you know it is a distraction. Well why is it a distraction? Because you just a talking too loud about standing there. Some people have KCDC they get out of class and they would just go and chill you know like right below the stairs. You know it’s not that much of a distraction, kind of like when I I think that they were afraid. Actually I think that some of the people on the staff were afraid of a littleethnicity. I have like when I have a keffiyeh I don’t know if you ever saw it but I have like a keffiyeh wrapped around just like this you know it is cold. Seven in the morning ya’ll got, ya’ll told me I had to be here at seven in the morning. I am going to wear something to keep myself warm. I’m sorry, I don’t wanna come here in the first place. Hah. Who wants to go to high school at seven in the morning. I remember Mr. Vanderslice started chasing me down because I was like no I’m not taking it off. NO! It was a shirt, it was a shirt on top of my head. That’s what it was. I had a shirt on top of my head. That’s stupid! That’s what I am saying! I had a shirt on my head, and one of the ambassadors, chased me all the way to my class just to yell at me. And you best believe that I did not just step back. I was yelling right back. Thankfully my mind, the thought in my mind was to check out the rules. You know, understand everysingle rule, and use that against him. I was like naw there aint nothing against that code book. Your wrong, it does not say that I cannot wear something on my head that’s not seven. Lets see school starts at 7:15 and it aint 7:15 yet. So I don’t have to take the shirt off. Couldn’t do nothing about it. School started at 7:50 7:50 yeah. Couldn’t do nothing about it, I was like ppht, what are you going to do? Violate it I dare you! Page 17 �So was the anything about the shirt, or was it just a regular shirt? Plain old white t-shirt man. I just wearin it on my head, just wearin it on my head. Now moving on to the keffiyeh. Which is? Which is Middle Eastern, soyou know automatic I am Muslim. So people think automatically he is a terrorist. You know lets get, it out of the way. Anytime anyone is wrapping a keffiyeh around their head, in fast the wrap it around their heads because there’s deserts snow storms. So in order to keep the snow, ornot snow Sand storms Stand storms yeah, so they want to keep the sand out of their face. Well its Michigan, it snows I wanna keep the snow out of my face. So I used to water that to when I walked in, everybody’s lookin at me. Whats he doin? Muslim. He is a terrorist. Because that all the, that’s all the media labels them. So we see Muslim terrorist, let’s be honest, let’s be real. Hahah. That’s all they see. They made a big deal about that. I was like yo, it’s not 7:50 yet. I’m not taking it off. You know this is a, I’m not Muslim or Islam, buth I do respect their culture. It is part of my history because remorse. So as part of my history, I embrace all of my culture, not just a little bit of it. So, they couldn’t do nothing about that either. Fight the power. Yeah you mentioned like the media, and how minorities seem to be misrepresented in it.do you have any thoughts about how that could change or, if it can change? Oh man was have to go to the core then because how that started was actually a break off from the Crow laws. That is how they got that in there. They intertwined Jim Crows laws with the media so that whenever someone sees a black person the automatically, you know subconsciously he is up to no good. Yeah like stereotypes Yeah exactly. He is automaticallyh, you know a grand banger. He is automatically high as hell right now. He is black, he is supposed to smoke weed. Dark lips, big dark lips you know. Lie Obama, what is it with Obama, they said that he had weed lips or something like that. I don’t remember, but they they put that, they attached that stereotype to him as well. In order to beat something like that you gotta take down the media because they have control of the mass. Everybody watches TV, everybody watches TV. So if everyone is tuned in on this psychological brainwash machine. Of course everybody is going to think that black person, he aint up to no good, no good at all. So I would say yeah, to, I like to get to the very core of everything I don’t like to,racism isn’t here you know it is 2012 we all matured (In a sarcastic voice). Really? Did you just tune into the Zimmerman case? Why aint he in jail? He shot and killed a 17 year-old who had a bag of skittles. For one the dude was 28 years-old. He shot him dead in a gated community, which was predominantly white in Florida, And why isn’t he in jail. This kid was 17 years-old and he is dead, isn’t that murder? Supposedly he is the head watchman of the, you know the supervising, you know that watch ting. So to say that racism isn’t still here in the United States, that is ridiculous. Racism is still here. It is just in a different way. It is just like energy. Energy was never created of destroyed, it was transformed. Racism was BOOM right in your face, now it’s you know transformed into this thing called the media and I lables every single race, not just blacks, Latinos, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, even American, everything! They have got a label for everyone. And why are we trying to be labels, im Page 18 �not trying to be labeled. I wanna created my own identity. That’s the problem, nobody has their own identity. On the subject of identity, earlier you said you talked about stuff that was part of your heritage. You are obviously very proud of you African American heritage. And one way you show it is through your Facebook name. It is very unique. Would you like to tell us what it is? Oh yea that’s why I tell people anytime they wanna find me on Facebook, you will not find me. I will find you. Hahah. My name on Facebook is Brotha Taffiti Savo Hakeema Jafarr . And the reason why I chose that name was it is the name Hakeema is Swahili for wisdom, and I have that tattooed on my back from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. I believe in that so heavily because without wisdom, or the name Taffiti means knowledge seeker and Savo means order and Hakeema is wisdom so you know with the right knowledge and wisdom comes order, creating your identity basically. And that propelled me into what I want to do. It gave me a new foundation for myself, .n how to give like a new label for myself. And not even a label but to just know who I am period. You know, growing up as a child where are all of the black figures. There are hardly and African doll figures. Identity crisis right there. You know you want to get your niece a doll, but there’s only white ones. Not saying there is anything wrong with white ones, but why give a white one to a black one who is constantly seeing all this propaganda against blacks. You know, she has no idea who she is, she is getting this false identification of herself So just right away that shows the importance of a diverse. You know be a little diverse. Why have too much ofjust one thing? Spread it out, shave to love. You know? Share the wealth, or at least get another black baby doll damn. Put that on the store shelves jeeze (laughing). Just change it up a little you know, that all a brotha can ask. There is one other thing about you that makes you unique. Especially for Grandville is that you are Atheist.and Facebook is the biggest, most notable way that you talk about it. Have you, has anyone ever called you out on it? Oh man we have a different idea that goes against the traditional or mainstream way, no everybody believes this, but that one idea that is controversial to everyone else. It was like what’s up with this guy. What’s wrong with him?rn I wasespecially, I wouldn’t say. Well I learned actually that there are different forms of Atheism. There is an Atheism that does not believe in a god at all, or super natural things. And there isthe atheism that does not believe in the three main traditional religions, the Abrahamic religions, Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. That came for a lost identification of myself I grew up as a Christian, you know my mom told me that I was going to church, I was going to like it, no if ands or buts. As a little kid I was like I have to, and ah I went not because I wanted to but because I had to. And it never gave me a change torn chose what I wanted to believe in. and the problem with a lot of religions, the problem I would say is just based on my research, a lot of people do not do research on religions or what they believe. A lot of people go to history. People don’t wanna research the dark things, the positive and negative. Everybody is looking as the positive, which is great cool, but if you’re not looking at the negative... Well remember if you do not know you history, then you are going to repeat it. People repeating history because of their lack of knowledge, with is also the Facebook thing. Every time a see Taffiti is motivates me. Knowledge seeker you know, that’s what I am. Keep studying, keep reading, keep bringing books everywhere. Nothing is going to stop me. And that was one of the biggest thing I ever had to do. Was let go of my belief of Christianity because it was a grips of fear if you do not believe in a doctrine, you are going to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Somebody raise they hands if they wanna go to hell. (nobody moves) Exactly! That was the biggest thing for me, I had to let go of the fear of risking my Page 19 �sole that is eternal in an eternal place where you die even though you are already dead. You di even more I guess. So I did a lot of research of the translations of hell You know all the translations of Hebrew of actually Arabic to Hebrew to Latin to English; you know studying all those words because I am a big studier. I study every single word, I don’t do broad things. If I am going to check Genesis 1011 will check every single word in every single translation. I will get the idea, I am not just going to go skating by. That’s what most people do, well I have the King James version so. Well did you know King James was a really wicked dude. He performed bestiality, he was extremely in to.. I forgot what it was. But the dude rewrote the bible to keep his throne in power. Now anybody that reuses, or rewrite something against his or against his people or against his power, not going to be like woah what did he change so he could keep his power? A lot of people change things, I like to get to the source, like I said to the core. And I found my identity you know the furthest that I have researched so far, which is Egypt, also the Comets. The traveled for Ethiopia to Sudan, followed the Nile River and the landed in Egypt, or Comet at the time. And that is the my belief system because that is the very core that I have seen so far and it may change. I love when my, what I believe in is challeneged, because that gives me the chance to learn because I get to see another area. So that yeah wxpecially going to Grandville to, you know there morals are all white and Christian. But my joey spiritually has not started since last year. No it was probably about a year and a half. So I would say if I want to Grandville High School with the knowledge that I have now shit would be completely different. I would probably be in college right now. Well I would be in college actually right now if I didn’t break my wrist. Was there a certain like factor that like caused you to start studying and following Atheism? Umm I would say that, I would say that I am very passionate about the black community If there is somebody that doesn’t know this I love who I am. I love being black. I love being who I am not say that being not black isn’t cool. That is just who I am and I would say that I was I questioned what is wrong with the black community today. We are not educated, we do not know our own history, I cannot even find or think of any history class that taught me that starting civilizations in Africa. I had to figure that out on my own. They didn’t tell me that my ancestors where ancient Egyptians were astrology came forum, and mathematics, and a lot of the Greeks got their information from Ancient Egypt. Where Plato always referred to Ancient Egypt. I was not told that a lot of the three religions are deep rooted in African traditions. So I questioned that. And I didn’t really have a bone to pick with Christianity so I was really upset that no one ever told me what was really going on. Because my mom didn’t know, she didn’t ask those questions. My mom actually grew up on Rockford, Oh my god my whole family actually grew up in Rockford. Now they are my age, the grew up in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s so I don’t think that they had time to think about that, They were having a hard enough time just getting through the day in Rockford. So I questioned my community, and the thing is they were mentally brainwashed through generations and generations and generations of slavery. Yeah and she has a daughter named Zira. My first niece. Yeah uncle over here. Kia is pregnant and she gets pregnant again. So, not to mention that Zi is here and she’s pregnant again by the same piece of shit. So, I’m already talking to Mom. I’m actually talking to Kia before. She told me and I was like oh but don’t tell Morn today because I’m talking to her right now. Having a little somewhat, excuse me, somewhat of a religious argument but kind of toned down because I’m trying to have that respect level and Kia, she didn’t tell her yet, but just as were getting done Kia goes, she’s like I don’t if I should tell you this, I’m kind of nervous you know and I laughed so hard. My face was priceless. I was like Kia no! Page 20 �No! You should have waited thirty minutes. No! She flipped out when you had a tattoo. She slammed a door on your face when she found out you were pregnant with Zi. I just told her I’m not a Christian anymore in the nicest way. Now you’re about to tell her you’re pregnant again. I left the house. I was scared. I left. Kia told Mom. Silence. Dead silence. What’d I do? Get my bag, headphones, going for a walk. I’m not coming back into the house for another three hours. She did not say anything for the entire night. I was like holy shit, but that’s kind of the thing. That’s the biggest bone that I have with religion. Religion is of course can be a very good thing, I’m not dogging it, but it has that fear factor. If you do not follow this doctrine then, as I told my mom several times, Mom you know if a Christian says that an Islamic person is going to hell or a Muslim person is going to hell because he does not believe that Jesus is his savior. That means that an entire population is going to hell. Also Judaism and also people who believe in... .what were the other ones. Fuck I forgot their names. You know the one’s from Eastern China. Buddhism Yeah Buddhism. Stuff like that. So I was like they were all going to hell just because they don’t believe in a certain doctrine.That’s pretty fucked up. You know I had a heart to heart talk with her and I was like dude I’m not going to hell. I’m doing research. Mom sorry to say but I know a lot more than you do about the own Bible. So don’t tell me that type of stuff with still having that respect level, but it was very frustrating. Mom Ijust wanna tell you all this stuff that I learned, but it contradicts with everything that we grew up on especially Africans because mind you that slave masters said hey did you want to believe in this? No they forced Christianity down their throats. Broke them. Told them that they were gonna accept the white Jesus for you know Michael Angelo’s picture of Jesus you know for a kind of psychological domination type of thing. Having blacks think that if their God is white then that means automatically white people are closer to God then they are. That type of thing. I mean hey look it up thats what they did. I’m not saying that one race is better than they other. I believe in unity I just love being black you know. (Laughter). Ask all my brothers. It’s ironic. I love being black. I love my brothers and sisters. I’ve never dated a black chick. I’ve only dated white chicks. I love red heads. I love white chicks. What can I say, but that does not make me any less black since I know my history you know? Some type of people will attach that to you also. I’m a very unorthodox type of person. The more I talk, the more I’m like damn I’m fucking weird. That’s what’s up because I’m not trying to be normal. (Laughter). Alright, one last question and we’ll get you out of here. We did a project on what causes prejudice and we had a whole presentation. In your opinion, what do you think causes prejudice? Oh man. Ignorance. Ignorance is not labeled or is not limited to race, gender, color, nothing. It is pure. If you do not know your history, or if you do not know your shit then you’re gonna be ignorant and you’re just gonna accept anything you know. If you don’t have a strong foundation or a set of beliefs than you’re gonna easily be like oh this makes and oh this makes sense too. I’ll follow that. A lot of people, a lot misconceptions on what ignorance is and like I said I’ve done a lot of research. Part of my name on Facebook is Enjur and a lot of people think the word nigger or negro comes from the word ignorant. That’s completely untrue because in ancient Kemit because, you gotta remember there were gods and goddesses, you know. Technically it was not the monotheistic you know religion. Their kings, remember even Egypt. Egypt was Greek and that shows you that’s not even the real name of that body of area. The name was Kemit and the names that the pharaohs, which is Greek for like upper house or something like that. The name for the pharaohs was Enjur and they didn’t have vowels and Enjur or negro is what they Page 21 �called gods and goddesses. So nigger and negro has a connection in that word. When they got invaded by the Greeks and the Romans they twisted and manipulated that word to attach a negative vibe to that word so when they’re calling nigger, negro like slave masters are like get out of here nigger and all that shit, they’re attaching a negative you know situation or vibe on that. So, they’re gonna t away from that name. That’s why you don’t hear people go what’s up nigger? It may make people feel uncomfortable but that word all it is Enjur with a few other letters in that you know. If I went around calling other black people what’s up my Enjur they’d be like what the fuck are you saying. That’s the core word for negro and nigger and where it came from, but most people don’t know that. They just think think it means ignorance so everybody is just you know yeah blacks are saying stop saying that word. It’s got such a bad history to it. It means ignorant. It’s so negative. Then you have dumb niggers who are using it like what up my nigger, what up making a fool out of themselves. Then you actually have the intelligent ones who know, which are a very selective few, that knows the meaning of the word and they use it proudly. You know? I even have white friends that say nigga and nigger. You know, it doesn’t bother me because I know who I am. I have a pretty solid identity of myself so you know it doesn’t bother me. If someone was to say that to me in eight grade, man, I would have whooped their ass so bad. I’m not saying it’s acceptable because today especially with society now if a white person says nigger, they’re about to get their ass whooped. But that’s just because of the black community doesn’t have identification of themselves. They don’t know that. They don’t know the history of the word so they accept it as something negative so they flip out. Does anyone else have any other questions? I guess just one thing, don’t have to get too much into it. Overall, how was your experience in the conservative West Michigan like communities been with you being an Atheist? Like have people called you out on it much or has it been pretty normal? Nahh. I usually keep it to myself. i usually keep my beliefs to myself. If someone asks me then yo I’ll tell them. I’ll tell them with a smile. I love life now. I don’t hate life. So, I’ll gladly tell anyone what I believe in because I believe in unity. Were all one. Were all one consciousness. I don’t believe in religion and sadly that’s what religion does. Divide and conquer. The best technique every because even with the whole black and white thing, you’re white you’re black. So what! Cool. I drive a blue car. Are you gonna call that out to homey. (Laughter). Like, people get so attached to names and labels and stuff like that. They have to hold themselves up to a higher degree. Like yo I’m just here living, what’s up. That type of thing. That’s kind of what I believe in just like yo. I live in the now. I don’t do that prejudice shit no more. I’m glad that I’ve matured. It was a long road. Long road. through trial and error. That’s one thing I’m most interested to see is how it’s gonna be in Texas. Texas is a little different than Michigan. Actually, the job that I’m at right now my boss has traveled all across the world and he told me that Michigan is the most racist place he’s ever been to. That blew my mind. He’s been to Mississippi, Florida, he’s been to China, Australia. Africa. You know, he said that out of all the places he’s been to Michigan is the most racist place he’s ever been to. Wow! I do not know what to expect in Texas. Thank you for your time Terrence for this interview. Thank you, it’s always a pleasure. Page 22 �END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc37d171c51cabff623d9246613b1b4a.mp3 3f335172564596d90f0ad44c593a1863 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Harris_Terrence Title A name given to the resource Terrence Harris audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harris, Terrence Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bauer, David Pete, Eric Homan, Stephanie VanDraggt, Victoria Description An account of the resource Terrence is African American and Atheist. He discusses growing up in a neighborhood that is predominately White, Christian. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History African Americans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ddca108327b9407310471839aa7fa1a.mp4 fdef60fa3ff6c333f1899d3405f8334f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7e534765b5bbb87ceb287dad2a555f6d.pdf 247c58b87f14929056809627ff24246c PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW BEN HARRISON Born: 1928 -Arkansas Resides: Fieldton, Texas Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, August 5, 2013 Interviewer: Can you start us off with some background on yourself, where and when were you born? I was born in July of 1928 in Arkansas, during the Depression. My father was an MD and he was sixty-two when I was born, which was very nice, but unfortunately he died at seventy-two, so at ten years old I had only my mother, who was thirty-nine when I was born, so I started off with very old parents, and I had a sister a little older than me. WWII started right after that and I saw what was called a draft board taking care of their friends and neighbors and drafting those they didn’t want in the community. I saw how that worked from an early point of view. Interviewer: You were still—now did you finish high school? No, I—we had a very small high school in Truman. 1:02 And in the big red brick building there was one water fountain on the main floor and no inside plumbing. We had a wooden john for the girls at one end of the block and one for the boys at the other end of the block. It was a two story building and it was very friendly school. I got a chance to go to Jonesboro High School, which was a much larger, nicer high school, and in 1944 the Air Force said they had too many pilots, so they took eighty thousand aviation cadets out of the aviation cadet program and sent them off to the infantry and stopped the program. So, Arkansas State College desperately needed students and they sent out the 1 �word that any junior in high school that the principal will recommend can go to college, so I went to college when I was sixteen. One semester at Arkansas State, one summer session at Arkansas State, and then I transferred to the University of Mississippi in Oxford when I’d just turned seventeen and was a sophomore at “Ole Miss”. 2:03 I got there and, of course, no money, my mother couldn’t work, my father had been a country doctor, but never got paid, so I desperately needed the GI Bill if I was going to finish school, so in February 1946 I enlisted at the age of seventeen. I enlisted for eighteen months and I really wanted to spend more time in school than what the GI bill provided, so I extended another eighteen months. I got out of the Army in January of 1949, went back to “Ole Miss” and graduated in 1951. Interviewer: Now, back up a little bit. What was your initial experience in the Army like? Well, as an enlisted man it was very interesting. Of course, I was a skinny little undernourished little runt and made it through basic training, had to dig one six by six foxhole for punishment from the platoon sergeant. 3:03 I went to clerk school and then got involved as a records clerk in personnel. I got in bad trouble with the first sergeant and he put me on permanent KP, so I had a friend of mine in personnel transfer me to the holding company and got transferred to a machines records unit in Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia, so I could go to Europe. I got down to Fort Oglethorpe and they disbanded the machines record unit and I got sent to the AG school and they moved to Pennsylvania where I was again in personnel and then I started teaching. Then we moved to Fort Lee, Virginia with the Adjutant General School and after three years I got out and went back to “Ole Miss”. 2 �Interviewer: What did they have you teach? I was teaching personnel management. Interviewer: Which you just had learned by practical experience at that point? Yeah, I had been the officer record clerk and I’d been in personnel for a year and a half, or so, so I had some experience, and then, of course, I’d been to the schools and all of a sudden I’m an expert. 4:06 I was promoted to sergeant first class at age nineteen, well actually I was tech sergeant and then they changed it to sergeant first class, so I had a permanent warrant that I was sergeant first class at nineteen. Interviewer: And this is in the post WWII army. Where there were no promotions. Interviewer: Right I was pretty proud, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Interviewer: So then, let’s make sure we got the sequence right, and then you go back to college at this point? I went back to college and took ROTC because I needed the money. Interviewer: When did you finish college? Two years later, in 1951. Interviewer: Now, at that point—you finish and you do the ROTC, do you get another round of officer training next, is that the sequence? Well, in this case I had been, of course, to the Adjutant General School. 5:03 And I had already been accepted at the Harvard Business School where I wanted to go to, so I had a choice, do I marry my sweetheart or do I go to Harvard Business School? If I marry my sweetheart I can’t go to Harvard Business School, so I’ll go on active duty in 3 �the army, so as an ROTC commission, I applied for active duty as a military personnel psychologist. I’d majored in psychology, and that’s all it took in those days. ‘Okay you’re a psychologist” and went up to Adjutant General School at Fort Harrison right here in Indianapolis, and then my first posting was in Alabama. It was pathetic, this was the Korean War, everybody getting drafted, and thirty-five guys come on a bus, none of them pass the mental test, send them all back, so my boss comes to me and says, ‘We got a real problem, because Willie Mays flunked the mental test”. 6:03 I said, “Well, I’ll get a hold of his records”, so I got a hold of his record and in those days it took ninety two questions on the exam and you had to get twenty eight right to get CAP 4 to be eligible for the draft. He got twenty--twenty five right, not twenty eight, so I knew he wasn’t malingering, or he wouldn’t have cut it that close. I said, “Call him back for re-exam and I’ll take care of it”, and they said, “What do you mean?” I said, “I have the authority to take him in, just on my word’, and the Colonel said, “Are you sure?” I said, “Yes sir, I’m sure”, so I called Willie Mays back up, I accepted him, he was drafted and went to Fort Eustis, Virginia and played baseball until the end of the Korean War. I got tired of all that after just a few months of examining guys, after guys, and not enough of them ever passed, so I applied for my Army commission, which I was eligible for as a distinguished graduate and they put me back in the infantry. 7:03 I wanted to go to the 82nd since I was Airborne qualified as an enlisted man, so I went to the 82nd Airborne Division. Interviewer: Where were they based at the time? Fort Bragg Interviewer: Now, had you wanted to go over to Korea? 4 �Oh yeah, I applied several times, but they said, “You’re in the 82nd, a priority unit, strategic reserve”, he loses the application, so I never got to Korea. Interviewer: What was the Army, at that point, worrying about, the politicians above them, why were they keeping you there? Well, the 82nd was in strategic reserve, and in the Korean War they were still worrying about the Soviets coming in Europe, so they didn’t want to get the 82nd Airborne under strength. They wanted them to be combat ready to go to Europe in case the Soviets came across, so I couldn’t get out of the 82nd. Interviewer: Okay, then how long did you stay with the 82nd? 8:00 Well, I was assigned as infantry platoon leader for a very, very short period of time and finally they found out I could read and write and that’s the reason why I became assistant adjutant of the regiment and I was the courts and boards officer, so I did all the special court martials. I didn’t have to be a lawyer to do it. I didn’t have to be a lawyer there, I just summoned Court Martials and the Court Martial Board and everything. I really didn’t like that, so I asked the regimental commander for an interview and I told him, I said, “I’m depriving all these other Lieutenants of any experience at all in the courts and boards business, so I recommend that you demolish my position and when you need a Court Martial officer you appoint one and rotate it, so all the Lieutenants get this experience”. He said, “Okay”, so they eliminated my job. The greatest thing I ever did in the army, I eliminated one job. Interviewer: Now that you’ve eliminated your job, what assignment do you take next? 5 �I went back to the rifle company, I was there about a week and they made me the battalion adjutant, still a 2nd Lieutenant with a Captain's job. 9:03 So then a friend of mine said, “How would you like to be an aide to camp? I said, “What’s that?” He said, “Well, that’s your aide to the General”, and he was an aide to the General. He said, “The General wants another aide and he would like to interview you”, so I went up for the interview with General Aubrey S. Newman, who was a 1928 Olympic champion. He said, “I’ll give you a thirty day trial and if at the end of thirty days I still want you, you’ll be my aide, if you still want the job, and in the meantime keep your regimental brass, you’re not going to be transferred, you’ll just be up here on special duty”. So, in about two weeks later he said, “I’ve seen enough, do you want the job?” I said, “Yes”, so I was the General’s aide and this was Aubrey S. Newman, and a few months after that, did some exercises and he got transferred to Fort Benning as the deputy commander at the infantry school at Fort Benning, Georgia. 10:00 So, he asked me to go down there and help him move, so, “Yes sir, I’ll do that providing you let me go in no more than ninety days”, and he said, “Oh yes, that’s fine. I’ll get you a job on the faculty, because you shouldn’t be an aide too long”, so after the ninety days he let me go, and I started teaching operations at the infantry school. By this time I’m a 1st Lieutenant, not very old for a 1st Lieutenant, so I get a message that he wants to see me and that was about four months later. So, I want to see him and he said that he just got orders for Germany and he was going to be the assistant commander of the 5th Infantry Division in Germany and he wanted me to go with him as his aide and help him move him and his wife over there. I said, “Sir, I don’t think I can do that”, and he said, “Why?’ I said, “Well, when I left you, you told me I did a good job for you, but with my personality I should never be an 6 �aide”. 11:02 He said, “Oh yeah, that was just for me, I meant the for somebody else, You’ll be alright for me”, and I said, “Well sir, I still can’t do it because I’ve just been trained to be an instructor, I’m teaching now and I owe my loyalty to my current boss, so I’m sorry, but I can’t go to Germany”. He said, “Well, I understand”, so he went back around and a couple days later my boss came to see me, Lieutenant Colonel, and he said, “Harrison I understand you went around to see General Newman”, and I said, “Yes, he sent for me”, and he said, “What did he want?” I said, he wanted me to go with him as his aide to Augsburg, Germany”, and he said, “When are you leaving?” I said, “I told him I couldn’t go”, and he said, “You couldn’t go, why?” I said, “Because I owe my loyalty to you now, I need to teach here, I’ve been trained to teach”, and he said, “You dumb son of a bitch, get back there and tell him you’re going” , so I went back around the office and told him I was going, so I went to Augsburg, Germany. 12:00 Interviewer: Now, did you go and stay as his aide? No, he said he would let me go after three months and then I could go to a rifle company, which I did, and went with the 2nd Infantry down in Munich. The headquarters was in Augsburg, but the 2nd Infantry was in Munich, so I was a rifle platoon leader in the company there. Interviewer: How long did you stay in Germany? Well again, with my typical screwed up career, they decided to gyroscope, so the 5th Infantry Division was going to gyroscope with the 11th Airborne Division. They were coming over to Germany and we were going to Fort Campbell, Kentucky. This time I got myself transferred to a tank company and in those days they had one tank company per infantry division and I wanted to learn about tanks too, so I was the exec of the tank 7 �company and they sent me as the advance party for the tank company for the 2nd Infantry Division. We were the first ones to get to Fort Campbell, got there, got married housing, got the TV antenna up on the roof, started checking the property books, and they weren’t right. 13:04 The tank company, a very complicated book for a tank company, and they just weren’t right, and I told my boss, “I’m not planning a problem, but somebody screwed up here”, and he said, “Well, you ought to work with it”, and I said, “Sir, I can’t, I can’t accept this property”, and he said, “God damn it Harrison, why do you make trouble everyplace you go?” I said, “Sir, this property is screwed up, I can’t do it”, so he said, “Okay”, so he reported it to the 503rd regimental commander that I couldn’t accept the tank company property, so they did an investigation, and they sent the supply sergeant to prison and they relieved the company commander, because they were lying and screwed up. Then about another week later they said, “Uh, you’re supposed to be in Fort Ord, California, so the 5th Infantry division did not stay at Fort Campbell, the 5th Infantry Division went to Fort Ord, California. 14:01 I got out there and then I was assistant S3 like I’d been before and we got the rifle company out at Fort Ord and we were the first company TOE company to train raw recruits, so we took them all the way through the basic cycle, advanced cycle, and by that time I finally got promoted to Captain, because they said, “You’re the only Lieutenant commanding a company in the whole division, so I stay with my company, got promoted to Captain and then went to Fort Benning to the infantry advanced course. Interviewer: Now, when was that that you went to Fort Benning? I went there in December of 1956 and the advance course started in January. Interviewer: Now, you’ve been married all this time. 8 �Oh yeah, married Interviewer: Now, did you take your wife place to place, or did she go sometimes with others? We were always together. We had one child born at Fort Bragg, and we had another child born at Fort Ord, so we took two children to Fort Benning to the infantry advanced course. 15:00 Interviewer: What did the infantry course consist of at that time, what were they making you do? Well, the infantry advanced course was just one of those things that every infantry officer has to go through. Your first one is basic, or associate, depending on when and how you were commissioned, but if you’re a regular officer, in all branches, after about four or five years you go to the advanced course and now they call it the career course, or something, I don’t know what they call it, but at one time it was about nine or ten months long, ours, I think, was six or seven months long. By that time I had applied to the Harvard Business School while I was on active duty and they said, “We don’t send Lieutenants to the Harvard business School, reapply when you’re a Major”, so, okay give it up, so I applied for flight school five times. 16:00 Just as I got to the infantry advanced course my application for flight school was approved. I have a tendency to get airsick, so I took flight lessons there in Columbus, Georgia, soloed and got my private pilot’s license, so when I threw up going through flight school they would say, “Well, he still can fly”, so after the advanced course I went to flight school down at San Marcos, Texas, and graduated number one in the flight school. Interviewer: Now, this was regular fixed wing flight school, right? 9 �L-19 Bird Dog fixed wing, tail dragger. I still got airsick and I always carried a plastic bag with me, so my flight instructor said, “You need to go on sick call and tell them that you went to a party because everybody can see you carrying this plastic bag filling up”, so through that. 17:02 In a fixed wing you go up and you cut the power and you do a spin. Okay, the instructor showed me how to do a spin and he said, “Okay, now you take it up and do three, three hundred and sixty degree spins and pull out”, so I took it up, turned in the spin, scared to death, pulled it out, and when I pulled up smoke rushed up into the front of the cockpit and I said, “Holy cow”. I turned around and my instructor had lighted a cigarette while we were in a spin. Interviewer: I guess that was one cool customer then. Yeah, he was quite a character. Anyway I graduated number one in flight school and I was supposed to be teaching tactics at the flight school at Fort Rucker, Alabama, but I wrote a seven page critique of the course about all that was screwed up in that flight school, so they threw me out of the aviation school and put me in an infantry unit at Fort Rucker. 18:02 Interviewer: I guess you were a troublemaker then. Yeah, and I was still a 1st Lieutenant too—no, no, I was a Captain by then. Interviewer: Where are we talking to in time now, what year is that? This is 1958 and I graduated from flight school, number one in my class, and at that time Lebanon happened, they blew up the Marine barracks, so we got a top secret message down at Fort Rucker that they wanted to send the 7292nd Air Combat Reconnaissance Company alerted to go to Lebanon. They were a bunch of instructors and other guys that just put on demo’s and didn’t know anything about tactics, didn’t know how to arm 10 �helicopter companies, and the first one in the army, so since I was the only one they could find that had a top secret clearance and could understand all this, instead of becoming the battalion adjutant, I became the trainer for 7292nd Air Combat Reconnaissance Company. 19:00 Interviewer: They were using helicopters you said? Yup, armed helicopters Interviewer: Now, did you have any experience in helicopters at this point? I wasn’t a helicopter pilot. Interviewer: I didn’t think so, yeah okay. I trained this and I took them over to Fort Stern and I took them over to Fort Benning, we planned exercises and got them combat ready and then they didn’t go. By that time the infantry manager was telling me, “You should be getting a short tour over with because you should be going to Leavenworth pretty soon, but we can’t send you until you get your short tour”, and I had the long tour, supposedly, in Germany, only eighteen months, but a long tour. So, I hitchhiked to Washington and volunteered for the hardship area. No vacancy, and I said, “You surly go to need somebody someplace for a short tour”, and he said, “The only thing we got one requirement up in Iceland”, and I said, “Okay, send me to Iceland”, and he said, “I got three records on my desk here that they’ve been back from a long tour a lot longer than you have”. 20:04 I said, “You got a volunteer?” He said, “No”, and I said, “Okay I volunteer”, and he said, “Okay, you’re going to Iceland”. He’s looking at my records and said, “You’re not helicopter qualified, we got helicopters up there”, and I said, “Great, send me to helicopter school”, so en route to Iceland I went to helicopter school. 11 �Interviewer: Having done regular fixed wing aircraft, how hard was it to learn helicopters? Not a problem, it’s a little tricky, but it’s not a big deal. Interviewer: Now, do you get sick in helicopters? No, never Interviewer: That’s a good transition then? Yeah Interviewer: How long did the helicopter training take? Since we were already qualified aviators to start with, I may have been nine weeks, it may have been twelve weeks, it wasn’t really any big deal--it was just a lot of fun flying around. Interviewer: then what did you end up doing in Iceland? Well, I was the commander and chief of army aviation North Atlantic, two helicopters and one Beaver. 21:06 It was an infantry combat team of thirteen hundred people, had an engineer platoon, a tank platoon, an aviation section and an infantry battalion, and we were the Army troops there. There wasn’t anything to do, there wasn’t any place you could go, so I set up the training program and I taught everybody in the battalion air mobile operation, how to hook up and load in and out of helicopters, and with my two helicopters I took every person up in the entire combat team for a flight around Iceland, a great stint. I took them to the geyser; you know there are three places in the world with geysers and they start at Geyser, Iceland, that’s the name of the town, and we flew over the geyser, just took them up and took the families up, you know. Nobody knew, I was 12 �the commander and chief and nobody knew anything about aviation and I could do anything I wanted to. Interviewer: Were there many of the men assigned there that had their families with them? No, because it was a short tour, it was out of country tour, but you could come up on a tourist visa and bring your family, which I did. 22:06 There were probably ten or fifteen families up there and there were also quarters on the base, but you had to stay two years to get quarters on the base. Interviewer: So, where did everybody else live? They lived in a hole in the wall there in a little bitty village and it’s very, very primitive. Interviewer: How did the local population treat you people? They hated the Americans. They hate everybody. They hate each other. Iceland is the oldest republic in the world, the oldest republic in the world and never had a majority government, it always a coalition. They just can’t get along with anybody. Interviewer: It started with a bunch of quarrelsome Vikings and stayed that way. Yes, they’re all of Scandinavian descent, and the women are absolutely beautiful. It’s a beautiful bunch of people, but they don’t like each other. 23:00 They certainly didn’t like the Americans. And another weird thing, it was 19—where am I now—1959-1960, and our state department signed a status of forces agreement that would not allow any blacks to be stationed in Iceland. Iceland didn’t want any blacks, 1959-60, no blacks allowed, weird. Interviewer: So, you have a short tour, how long is a short tour? 13 �Well, it was twelve month, but fortunately they decided to pull out of NATO and move back to the states, so I only spent nine months there, lucky. Interviewer: Alright, so what do you get next? Well, since my wife came up on a tourist visa, I didn’t take the ship back home with all the troops, I bought a commercial ticket and we flew there and sure enough, I’d been selected to go to Grand General Staff College, so we went from Iceland to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. 24:03 Our son, who was our first born, went to three different first grades. Interviewer: So, how long does the course in Leavenworth go? Well, I was there as what they call a “snowbird”, because I got there in about March and the class didn’t really start until the end of August, so they assigned me to the allied personnel section to help bring in a hundred foreign students from all over the world. Most all of them were top graduates of their staff college in their army and I taught an English class to those that already knew how to speak, but they needed some improvement. I asked my boss about speed reading and he said, “Yeah, we used to teach that here, go get a Tachistoscope and you can do it yourself”. Do you know what a Tachistoscope is? Interviewer: No 25:00 It’s a little panel about like that and you set the speed and it uncovers the lines and you can set it for how fast you want to read or whatever. It covers the lines up, so you have to read or you miss the lines. I finally located the Tachistoscope’s; they were stored in the closet someplace over in the lab, and he said, “That’s great, I want you to set up a speed 14 �reading class for all the advanced English speaking people”, so I taught speed reading until the class started in August of 1960. Interviewer: How well did that work? It worked pretty well. I had a Dutch officer that—he tested out at two hundred and fifty words a minute and finished at seven hundred words a minute. Interviewer: Now, you actually get to take a course yourself? Yeah, see I enrolled with all the rest of the students and went through the regular course, and then they kept me on the faculty. 26:01 It spite of all my protest, I wanted to go back to crew, but they kept me on the faculty. That lasted for about a year and a half and then they started the air assault tests in Fort Benning and I was one of the aviators that could read and write, so they sent me down to test headquarters to design the test, the air assault test, so I did the reconnaissance clearance and functional areas. It was the first test of that kind they ever did on functional areas, logistics, reconnaissance, security, artillery, fire support and that sort of thing. It was a very interesting tour. We tested the 11th Air Assault Division, which later became the 1st Cav Division. Interviewer: So, you’re kind there on the ground floor with a lot of organizing of airmobile operations and all of that. Yeah, I wrote a lot of the final report. Interviewer: Did you stay on down there after you finished that, or what did you do next? 27:00 No, I went to the Armed Forces Staff College. Interviewer: Where is that? 15 �It’s in Norfolk, Virginia, it’s in the air/naval base, and I was just telling Mike I got a haircut there and the Navy has regular seamen that give, they’re barbers, and they do that on ship, and it cost me thirty cents. Interviewer: What rank have you made it to by this time? By that time—I was a Major when I went down there. Then while I was in the Armed Forces Staff College, I think it was in there, I was selected for a promotion to Lieutenant Colonel. Interviewer: Once you complete the staff college training, now what are you eligible for and what do you go and do next? I had a friend in personnel, of course, there in Washington, and I got him to assign me to Hawaii. 28:01 I was on the staff of commander-in-chief of the Pacific, Admiral Sharp, in Hawaii, and I was in the Southeast Asia section of the policy division J5, so we had Cambodia and Vietnam in my little section. There were four of us there, one from each branch of the service and I was kind of the ground guy for the policy section. Interviewer: So, when did you arrive out there? That would have been in the summer of 1965. Interviewer: Okay, that would probably be a fairly interesting time to walk into that job. It was very interesting, and the 1st Cav Division was deploying by boat at that time and I saw some of the guys when they stopped there for a rest stop in Hawaii. They were headed around to Southeast Asia. Interviewer: If Southeast Asia was your territory, did that mean that you actually go over to Vietnam yourself at this point to take a look at things? 16 �I was supposed to, but there was always something and they would never let me go. 29:01 I had to do this and do that and different thing. Like, I had to rewrite the plan for defending Thailand and I had that reviewed and I had to write a plan to invade North Vietnam, which I did and that was reviewed, so I just had to do all kinds of stuff like that. One of the guys that I had known during air assault test was now the commander of the 1st Aviation Brigade in Vietnam, Fitzsimons, Major General, and his wife was there in Hawaii, who we knew before, so he came back to visit every once in a while. He said, “I’ve got a battalion that really needs a command change and I would like you to volunteer to come to Vietnam, and I want you to command the battalion”, and I said, “Yes sir’, and I volunteered for Vietnam right after I got to Hawaii. I didn’t know it at the time, but it took them months and months to decide that, because when you go through a joint assignment It’s stabilized and you’re there for three years. 30:06 Well, the Chief of Staff of the Army, Harold J. Johnson, said, “Anyone in the army that volunteers for Vietnam will go”, so I knew nothing about this, but for months they argued over that policy and they finally let the Army have its way. Stabilized tours don’t count, and if a guy volunteers for Vietnam he can go, so after a just little less than a year staying back in Hawaii, I went to Vietnam. After bringing my family back to the states I go to Vietnam. Interviewer: Where do you arrive in Vietnam? In Saigon, at Tan Son Nhut, the big base Interviewer: What was your impression of Vietnam when you got there? Screwed up, busy, everybody going in different directions, and you know, this was the start of the big buildup. 17 �Interviewer: What units, specifically, were you assigned to? To the 10th Aviation Battalion 31:00 I was processing in and an old friend of mine was there and he was assigned Lieutenant Colonel and we had been class mates at Leavenworth. I said, “Well Ben, I guess you want a battalion?” He said, “I’m supposed to get a battalion”, and I said, “Yeah, you and everybody else”. So, I had lunch with him and that afternoon he sent for me and he said, “You really are going to get a battalion. General Senna has sent a helicopter for you to take you out right now”, so I went right up and took immediate command of the 10th Combat Aviation Battalion. Interviewer: Can you describe, a little bit, what the makeup of that battalion was and what its mission was? Yeah, it a—the aviation brigade had all separate aviation units. There was an aviation battalion in each division at that time, now they got a brigade in every aviation battalion and then they had several battalions, and at that time they had, probably, six other battalions and they were under the 1st Aviation Brigade commanded by a two star aviation brigade commander. 32:00 He assigned me to the 10th Battalion, which was up near Nha Trang and one of my companies in the 10th Battalion OPCON to the 5th Special Forces group and the other four companies. I had command of the other three, so that’s what we did and I supported the 1st Brigade of the 101st as my first priority then the two Korean divisions, and a Korean marine brigade and all of the ARVN units in a two corps area near Tuy Hoa, Nha Trang. Interviewer: What kind of aircraft did you have in your battalion? All Hueys, and had one company of Chinooks, but all Hueys after that. 18 �Interviewer: And were these all used for transportation purposes or did some of them carry guns? Each company had a gun platoon and I think there were eight guns in each company. Interviewer: So you had sort of your own gunships that could go to protect the other ones. Oh yeah, each company had three platoons to lift and one gun platoon. 33:00 Interviewer: And what sort of stands out in your mind about your operations that got performed or did a useful job or got screwed up, or whatever? Early on when I got there a crew took off at about nine or ten at night, in the dark and light rain and crashed and killed everybody on board, and I asked if his instrument ticket was up to date, if he was instrument qualified and they said, “No, no, in Vietnam you don’t have to keep your instruments up to date, that’s all waived and we don’t take enough of them”, so I immediately established a policy that everyone would be instrument qualified and they must be instrument qualified to be the command pilot and in command of that helicopter, and, also, that we would all have night training, because they took off at night, poor weather, crashed and killed everybody, so that was a big change for everybody and here this new chickenshit Colonel’s going to make everybody take their flight exam, when the army says you don’t have to do that, but in my battalion they did. 34:01 So, we took night training and we took instrument training. Interviewer: Did that have a notable effect? Absolutely, we had super qualified guys and another thing, the way the Huey is designed the best instrument is in the right seat. Well, by practice over there the senior pilot, command pilot, would sit in the left seat and the new guy would sit in the right seat, so I 19 �had to change that and said, “During weather and at night, the most experienced pilot sits in the right seat where the instruments are”, and I kind of got that going, and there were a lot of interesting little things. Interviewer: Now, helicopter pilots have a reputation as being kind of a crazy, or maybe, undisciplined bunch. How easy, or hard, was it to convince them to go along with that kind of regulation? I wasn’t hard Interviewer: Could they see the logic of it? They pretty well saw the logic of it, but there was no room for argument. They did what I told them to. 35:03 If they didn’t like it they’re out. Interviewer: And overall, how would you kind of rate the performance level or efficiency of your unit while you were running it? Oh, they were superb, really, really good. Like I say, you got an experienced pilot and then the junior pilot and they work up and everybody wants to be the first pilot over there, but they were highly motivated. The problem was, there was a pilot shortage and they didn’t have enough pilots to fill all the seats, in spite of the fact that in the news conference in Saigon, McNamara was asked the question, “What about the pilot shortage?” He said, there’s no pilot shortage in Vietnam. Every aircraft flying has a pilot”, that’s what he said. Interviewer: I suppose it did. The Army had to have programs in place, and they’re trying to train more pilots at this time, right? 36:01 Oh yeah, they’re pushing them through as fast as they could, but, you know, they would arrive in the country with a minimum of two hundred and fifty and some of them four 20 �hundred hours, and, of course, by that time I had a couple thousand and I really learned how to fly helicopters in Iceland. High winds, bad weather and I was very arrogant and proud of my ability to fly helicopters. Interviewer: Were there any particular difficulties, or challenges involved when you were working with the Koreans? With who? Interviewer: The Koreans Oh, they were great, great troops, they were very disciplined, and no, it was much easier working with them than with the Americans. Interviewer: So, how long have you spent commanding that battalion? As far as I know, I’m the only one that commanded a battalion twelve months. Normal was six months , but what happened was, my boss in Saigon, when my six months was up, he was worried about me getting killed or wounded or something, because we’d lost a couple of battalion commanders. 37:04 They were wounded, so he sent my replacement up and the 1st Brigade commander of the Airborne, Joe Matheson, looked at him and said, “You don’t have any jump wings on”, and he said, “No sir, I’m an aviator”, and he said, “This is an airborne unit”, and he sent him back to Saigon. That happened a couple of times, not for the same thing, but the commander of the 1st Brigade of the 101st, would not accept any replacement, so my boss said he’d leave me in command if I promised never to leave this hall and never to mark a LZ, and I said, “No sweat sir”. Interviewer: How dangerous was your job? Well, I lost twenty nine guys and thirty five helicopters. 21 �Interviewer: And what was the normal full complement to the amount of helicopter you had at one time? 38:00 Let’s see, the total number of helicopters, which would have been over two hundred, but I can’t remember the exact number off hand. Interviewer: You notice as a whole, most of them come back, but stuff can happen, and at this stage you’re going into LZ’s all over the place and different parts of the country and people are shooting at you from anywhere. Yeah, the real dangerous places were when you go in a single ship to pick up a wounded guy and you have to stay up there or hover down and let a rope down, because we rarely had the medevac helicopters where we were. They were very rare, because we were always with the 1st of the 101st on some special mission places like Dak To, Pleiku, out in the boonies, so we did a lot of medevac. Interviewer: What’s the difference between a medevac helicopter and just a regular Huey? 39:04 Well, the main difference is, on a medevac helicopter you got an aid man there that can help out, so the preference is always a medevac helicopter, but if they’re not around, you get them out and get them to an aid station as quickly as you can. Interviewer: But, otherwise the physical machinery is in the interest of how you load them up possibly and so forth. Yes and the medevac helicopters have a winch out on the side where we didn’t have that. Interviewer: So, because you were somebody who came in as a very experienced helicopter pilot and fly a lot of conditions, were you putting yourself in situations that were pretty dangerous? 22 �Every day Interviewer: So, you would go right into the LZ’s. Yeah, yeah, well, what I would do is, with each company, I would tell my S3 to take command of the controls and run the operation and I would go as “Peter Pilot” and we’d land in formation with the other troops. 40:01 Just to show them I could do it and to let them know that I knew what they were going through and that I could be as scared as they could. I flew with every company, including the Chinooks. Interviewer: It’s really the equivalent of what a line company commander would do and take the same risks his men do. Oh yeah, and again, I had a requirement for night training and I made each company conduct their own night training, as least one assault a month and then we would do one whole battalion night assault, just for training, no troops on board, just for practice, and I was told by the Chinook company, “We can’t fly at night, particularly in formation”, and I said, “Why not?” They said, “The windscreen is at such an angle that the light reflects up and it’s hard to see the instruments”. I said, “No problem, I’ll fly the lead Chinook”. I wasn’t Chinook qualified, I flew the lead Chinook, scared the shit out of them and I never had a problem again and they were ready to go the next time I told them to. 41:02 Interviewer: Now, you got to the end of that year's assignment and were you sad to see that come to an end, or were you ready to go on to something else? No, I was ready to go home. Interviewer: How much contact did you have with your family while you were over in Vietnam? 23 �None at all--on my second tour I got a chance, when I was flying one time, to get an air patch with some guy in Peru and make a telephone call back to my wife and that was the only contact I had, other than the daily letters. Interviewer: You would write to each other. They didn’t get them daily, but we wrote daily. Interviewer: So, when do you leave Vietnam then on that first tour? The first tour--that would have been July of 1967. Interviewer: What assignment do you get then when you come back? Okay, from there I went to—again my friend gave me a good assignment—went to McNamara’s office so I could get the joint staff duty and all that sort of thing. 42:02 I was the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Manpower, in the training division of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Manpower. Interviewer: Were you at the Pentagon? I was at the Pentagon--yeah, there were four of us, one for each service. Interviewer: What was that experience like? Well, it was pretty disgusting, and the first thing I was disgusted about it—McNamara had this thing with, “I’ve got a civilian staff”, so we were not allowed to wear our uniform to work, so we had to buy a whole wardrobe of civilian clothes to go to work every day and we were used to going to work at six thirty or seven o’clock, seven thirty at the latest, and I’d get in the office and the civilians would start dragging in about eight thirty or nine o’clock, so I said, “Okay, I’m going to do that too, I wear civilian clothes”, so the guy across the street from me there at Norfolk, Virginia, he was an Air Force two 24 �star General and he went to work at six thirty and I went to work at eight thirty, so I just went along with the game. 43:06 Interviewer: How much of what you were doing was political as opposed to practical, or how much political stuff did you have to deal with at your level? Not so much political because we were in the training part, but Project One Hundred Thousand was going at that time and the guy that did that was a civilian across the hall from me and that was pretty disgusting. Interviewer: Can you explain was the purpose of Project One Hundred Thousand was? Political—equal opportunity for all the dummies that come in and screwed up all the military and it was really a disaster. It cost a lot of extra money for training and it did cause a lot of problems—it was a total failure in my view. Interviewer: Did it basically take people who did not qualify for the service on the aptitude tests? Not aptitude, it was intelligence tests. Interviewer: Intelligence, yes—and then somehow or other, in principle, making them qualify at least. Did they get any kind of training or education? 44:02 Yeah, yeah, they had training programs for them and some would turn out okay, but I would say the majority of them were a problem, and we were better off without them, that’s for sure. Interviewer: In terms of investment of resources maybe not that great a idea. Exactly 25 �Interviewer: So you’re seeing that from the inside in terms of how would actually play out. Yeah Interviewer: How long did you have to do that kind of work? Well again, they’re lucky; I was there for a year and was selected to go to the War College. In those days, once you’re selected for college you went out of the Pentagon. Now, and not long after that, you have to do your full three years, get deferred and go to college and do another three years, but I got to go after one year, so I got out after one year of my first tour at the Pentagon and got out after one year of my second tour at the Pentagon, and then I had a third tour and that’s later on. Interviewer: Now, when you’re going to the college are you going there to teach at this point or study some more? 45:04 It’s a—everybody goes through the advanced course and everybody’s going to get promoted that goes to the war college, and you may go to your service war college or some other service war college, in the meantime you may got to the Armed Forces Staff College, but that’s not something that’s in the line that you have to do, but everybody that’s a professional career guy goes to the advanced course and then the war college. Interviewer: Is this sort of the process to get you from Lieutenant Colonel to Colonel? Oh yes, definitely, and it’s just part of the professional military education system. Interviewer: All right and when did you complete that course? I completed that in 1969 and went to the Air War College which was totally unchallenging. It—the air force had a policy that everybody would go to Southeast Asia 26 �before anyone would go the second time. 46:01 All the top guys, the professional level, the air force people they were with there with all of the army, navy, coast guard, marines, was below standard, it was a snap course, and so much so that I enrolled in Auburn University and got a master’s in business while I was going to the Air War College. Interviewer: And the Air War College, is that at Montgomery? Yeah, and they had a little way you could do that, so I went to night school and we had Saturdays off, so I went to Auburn and got my MBA at Auburn. Interviewer: Was that any harder than the air force program? Yeah, oh yeah, because I had to take business statistics and in those days, we’re talking 1968, they hadn’t invented little calculators yet, so I had to do all the calculations with a slide rule. 47:00 That was my biggest challenge. Interviewer: Having gone and done all that and gotten to that level, what did they send you for next? I got assigned back to the Pentagon and this time I was chief of doctrine. This time I had come out on the promotion list as a Colonel, so I was the branch chief and assistant of air force development. They have a doctrine division there and I was chief of doctrine. Interviewer: And doctrine for all kinds of air units or helicopters? No, Army Interviewer: So it’s Army Air Doctrine? Army wide yeah Interviewer: Were you making an effort to try to adjust doctrine, or whatever to fit what you learned in Vietnam? 27 �Just kind of routine stuff, special consideration and this and that, no big deal, and then I volunteered for Vietnam to command an infantry brigade as soon as I got there. 48:02 A friend of mine who was in charge of assigning infantry Colonels said, “Man, you know we got guys that have been back from Vietnam a lot longer than you have and we’ve got hundreds of guys that have applied to command a brigade in Vietnam, you’re never going to get to go”, and I said, “Okay”, so I sent a message to my old mentor, General Senna, telling him that I wanted to go to Vietnam and I would appreciate some help. So he contacted his friend who commanded the 101st Airborne Division and I was requested by name to command the 3rd Brigade of the 101st. So, I found out that my boss turned it down and didn’t even let me know when the request came in, so I called the secretary and asked for an appointment and the secretary came back and said, “He knows why you want to see him and he doesn’t want to see you”, and I said, “Tell him that I really need to see him”. 49:03 So, he finally lets me come in and he said, “Don’t bother to sit down because it’s not going to take long. You want to go to Vietnam, you’re not going to go”, and I said, “But sir”, and he said, “I’ve got thirty two Colonels in this building and you’re my best Colonel and you’re not going”, and I said, “But sir, I want to command an infantry brigade”, and he said, “I will guarantee you command an infantry brigade”, and I said, “Sir, combat might be over then and number two, I’m an aviator”, and he said, “Oh, that’s right”, and he said, “Well, okay, but if you don’t go to that brigade command, I’m going to get you”. So, he let me go after one year there and then I went to the 3rd Brigade of the 101st. Interviewer: And when did you arrive to take command? In June of 1970 28 �Interviewer: 1970, and what was the situation there of the brigade, or the brigade's mission, at the time you joined it? 50:00 The brigade was given orders to conduct an operation in the A Shau Valley area where the North Vietnamese were bringing all there troops and supplies and everything else down to. The North Vietnamese were bringing all there troops and supplies down there and it was called “operation Texas Star” and we were the brigade to conduct it and my predecessor knew they had gotten the orders and prepared for that just before I took command. Told the division commander that’s a bad area and we need more troops and he said, “Nah, nah, just one brigade, so go out there”, so that was it, that was our brigade assignment, “operation Texas Star”, and we established, before I got there, they established Firebase Ripcord and that was in April. When I got there in June there was a lot of fighting going on, it wasn’t really massive, but there was fighting going on out there and then they really started concentrating on Ripcord and I would get extra battalions. 51:03 At one time I had four of the eight battalions in the division on my operation control, I always had at least three battalions, but we just didn’t have enough troops out there because the NVA were all over the place. It was their area, their supplies and their weapon caches and they just didn’t want us there. Interviewer: At the time the Ripcord operation was going on how much did you know about enemy strength in the area, or what did you think they had at the time? Well, we knew they had a lot there, but we didn’t know where--like one time we got word that 29, I think it was 29, NVA regiment were coming across the line and the Air Cav squad went out and just wiped them out, caught them out in the open, so we knew 29 �there were a lot of them there. We didn’t know exactly how many, but we had a good idea that there were lots of them there. Interviewer: Now, were there manpower issues in the line companies by this time? Yeah, yeah, a typical company would have ninety five people in the field instead of a hundred and sixty. 52:08 Interviewer: At Ripcord some of them eventually had less than that too didn’t they? Oh yeah Interviewer: Were you getting fewer replacements coming in than they in earlier years? Well, we were getting in country transfer replacements, so we were getting fewer replacements than—we were just short of people, everybody was. Interviewer: How much contact did you have with the people on Ripcord, or how often did you go out there? Oh, every day, every day and then when they started the siege on the first of July--and I saw the buildup we were getting around there. We lost a Chinook in the middle of it, a guy killed right there and blew up a 105 battery and that was on the seventeenth of July as I recall [actually July 18]. 53:00 And then I decided to spend the night out there every night, so the last five nights we were there I stayed on Ripcord during the night so I could talk with the Navy, the Air Force and the Marines air guys and speak their language and tell them that, “No, we’ve cut the artillery off, you don’t have to worry about artillery fire, come on in and hit the targets or whatever”. Interviewer: Physically, what was that experience like? You’re on a base that’s under siege; describe a little bit just the layout of Ripcord and the terrain around it. 30 �Well, it was a sharp hill and it had been cleared off and Captain Vazquez's was the first rifle company that had to go in there and had to set it up. He was an absolutely superb rifle company commander and he just worked the hall out of his troops. Barb wire, trip wires, claymore mines and in fact, that base was never penetrated, not a single enemy ever got onto that base. 54:03 Interviewer: No sappers got inside the wire or anything like that? No, in fact none of my bases, in basecamp, were we ever surprised, because I read the action reports of all these disasters and they were always someone was sleeping and a complete surprise, so I established the policy of no overhead bunkers so they could go to sleep in and the upset a lot of people, and also that a NCO had to walk the perimeter every hour and an officer had to walk the perimeter every three hours. This was all night long, so that if you’re standing up awake and walking you’re a lot more alert. Interviewer: Those were procedures that Captain Vazquez was using with his own company before you’d gotten there. Did you pick that up from him, or did you just know that anyway? No, I just knew that’s what you had to do. I read all the action reports and they were caught napping. Interviewer: Now, you’re there, so physically what was—I guess you’re on top of this hill, where was the enemy relative to you? 55:09 Completely around us, plus we were on Hill 923 or 937, something like that, and just adjacent to us within mortar range was Hill 1000, so they had optimum terrain and they were dug into that hill and we never got them out. We bombed, and bombed, and bombed, and bombed used mortars and attacked the hill; we could never get them out of 31 �the hill. There was a bunch over there at Hill 805, the other side of them, they had troops over there, they were all around us , Hill 1000, they were in there and we were on Hill 917, or whatever, Hill 923, but we were a little bit lower and, of course, our hill was totally barren because we had the 105 battery and the 155 battery and it was all cleared out and we had bunkers and the battalion command bunker of the 2-506 was underground and sandbagged and was the aid station. 56:09 So, it was pretty well fortified up there, but there again where the troops were, no overhead cover and what we had were things they could crawl under if we got incoming mortars, but they couldn’t stand up and be covered and they had to stand up to be able to see out, so they could see. It was pretty barren and, of course, the disaster was on the seventeenth of July, I think that’s when it was, when the Chinook came in and blew up and wiped out the whole 105 battery, and a lot of shells. Interviewer: And then were they also firing certain direct fire rounds on the base with those rifles and things like that? Yeah Interviewer: They couldn’t force you off the hill by ground assault, but they could just shoot down into the position and make it—57:03 A lot of mortars and rockets and particularly the 120(mm) mortars, the 120 is really, really bad. Interviewer: And they could also hide a lot of their ordnance inside of caves and bunkers built into the side of the mountains. They had a huge supply depot right at A Shau. 32 �Interviewer: So, your artillery, or air strikes, by and large when falling, it’s not going to get them. You needed the right kind—these days we have the self-guided missiles that night go in from the front, but we’re not quite there yet. Yeah Interviewer: How close did you come to getting hit yourself? You’re on that firebase at the end of the siege. Well, I was standing just outside the TOC with four ammo boxes filled with sand and on the other side there were sandbags and a 120 mortar landed right in front of this where I was leaning and it threw me back and they guy I was talking to back about eight or ten feet, just right straight back into the bunker. 58:02 When we got up and shook off he had blood coming out of both ears and he was evacuated. I had a rather bad headache and the guy to my right who was standing behind a bunker just like that, he was killed instantly, and that was the closest call I had. Interviewer: Now, while you’re there at the end of the operation, Lieutenant Colonel Lucas is the battalion commander, so you’re right there with him pretty much? It was his TOC I was standing in front of and I slept in his TOC. Interviewer: How did he handle the situation in the last days when they were under siege, what was he doing at that time? Well, of course, we were all up very, very early. They made an early daylight extraction of A Company and he came back to Ripcord, looking around, and he was standing out in the open and not behind a thing like I was, watching the artillery over there and a round hit him in the leg and they took him out and he died before he got to the medevac. 59:03 33 �Interviewer: Before that when his—earlier on in the campaign he’s up in the helicopter observing and so forth, but then as the line companies are sort of more down—in the book he’s spending a lot more time on the ground on the firebase. Who is? Interviewer: Lucas He was in the helicopter all the time. Interviewer: Even in the very last days? Yeah, he’s in the Hiller’s H-23, which has one person and then the pilot and there’s a seat in the back. He was out there in that all the time flying at low level and right down in it. He was in the action all the time. Interviewer: You still have line units out there in the hills and in between them still? Yeah, they were patrolling and we had another battalion out there on the ground with him. We had an extra company that was OPCON to his battalion on hill 805. He was very, very much out with it all the time and he scared the hell out of his pilot. 00:03 Interviewer: You also got—now General Berry was the assistant Division commander at that time. Yes, he was the acting division commander because Hennessey was on leave in the states. Interviewer: What role did General Berry play in things, or how much did you see of him? Interviewer: Every day, didn’t miss a day chewing my ass. 34 �Interviewer: Was he able to—I guess one of the wider issues around Ripcord, sort of, that was the place where eventually a decision comes down to evacuate, and now the question is do we put more people in and actually try to secure the area and chase the enemy out, or take ourselves out? And, at least in the book version of things, most of the officers, Lucas, yourself, and Berry, were of the inclination, of course we should keep going, and eventually it goes the other way. 1:01 Was there a point where you decided, just yourself, that it just doesn’t make sense for us to stay? No, I never came to that conclusion, we had the mission to push on in to A Shau and that’s what we were doing. Closing the base never occurred to me until Berry came to that decision, and one of the main reasons he came to that decision was because we lost our 105 battery. They took them out and we couldn’t have that direct fire support that was very important and as soon as that happened that day, I requested another battalion, artillery battery, and opened up the firebase right next door there, the firebase, it started with a G—Gladiator, and I requested an engineer platoon go in and check it for mines and booby traps and requested another battery, and by about six o’clock that night we had 105 support, so we were without 105 support for just a matter of a few hours. 2:06 Interviewer: And once you have Gladiator set up, does that alleviate some of the need to be using Ripcord? No, you need both of them, we had the 155’s on Ripcord because it was a bigger place and they had the aid station there. Interviewer: Was Ripcord also becoming kind of a dangerous place? Oh--- 35 �Interviewer: Kind of hard to work out of? Oh yeah, it was very hard, because, you know, we had mortars all around us and when they started getting the 120 mortars that was when it was really bad. Interviewer: We’ve been talking about—kind of the end of firebase Ripcord and the withdrawal form there and then sort of the prospects for what might have happened. Now, having left Ripcord, I guess on some level it kind of stayed with you, because well afterwards you managed to locate your Vietnamese counterpart from that battle. 3:02 And you actually talked to him about the Vietnamese side of what went on. Now, can you describe a little bit your contact with him and what you learned from him? Yes, I got in touch with a fella by the name of Frobenius, Courtney Frobenius, and he had gone back to Vietnam and studied Vietnamese and he was there about six years and married a lovely Vietnamese lady whose father ran an English school in Saigon. He traveled all over the country by motor cycle and he was the guy who could possibly find some of these people for me, so he set up a tour for me in 2001 to go and visit the people who had been fighting against us and I made a number of contacts there, called the Ambassador and all that sort of thing, but I could not get the commanding General of the 324 NVA Division to meet me. 4:02 He was living in a little town up on the Chinese border two hundred miles north of Hanoi. It was a little dirt road, it wasn’t all dirt, but it was a little road, and no airport there that I could fly into. I got a message to him that if he would come to Hanoi that I would pay him a consulting fee and I would pay his expenses and he sent a message back to me, “If you want to talk to me you’ve got to come to my house”. There was no way I could do that, I didn’t have time and it just 36 �wouldn’t work out, because it would take at least three days to do that. A day to get up there, a day to talk to him, and a day to get back, so that was it. Then in 2004 I was contacted by the University of Southern Mississippi again, and they asked me to be one of their visiting professors and take a group of their graduate students over on a tour. I said, “If you can guarantee me that I’ll be able to interview in Hanoi, I’ll go”. It took them a while, but Courtney Frobenius said he had it set up, and he did. He provided the guide and everything for the whole tour of Vietnam. 5:02 I went back in 2004 and I left the group of students and flew up to Hanoi and got a driver. We drove two hundred miles up this little road and got to the hotel, which was so far up there they wouldn’t take credit cards and they wouldn’t take American money and that’s pretty far out in the sticks when people won’t take American money. I went out, and I had prepared a nice gift for his wife, beautifully wrapped--they think more of the wrapping than they do of the gift, and also, a gift for his daughter and I got about a sixty dollar bottle of brandy for him. So, I took those gifts out to him in the evening and he was still a little formal, a little cold. We sat around and talked and he didn’t open the brandy, we drank beer, so he probably is going to sell the brandy. 6:00 But, we talked and we talked and he got a little more friendly, so he agreed, okay, he would come to the hotel tomorrow for the interview. The next morning he came to the hotel and he said, “I can only stay one hour” through an interpreter, who was my driver so, after about three hours he said, “I must go”, and I said, “ Chung Nuy, If we had not left Ripcord, what would you have done?” He said, “Well I still had one battalion left”, he said, “We would have kept pushing in, just like we did at Dien Bien Phu and we would have kept coming in”, and that’s when he admitted that we 37 �destroyed eight of his nine battalions and it hurt, but he still had one battalion left, but that made my whole trip. Interviewer: So, the operation cost them quite a bit. Oh yes Interviewer: While they may have interfered with our own plans to go into the A Shau Valley at that point, it also interrupted whatever they were sending. Absolutely, it was very, very costly for them. 7:02 Interviewer: Now, once the Ripcord operation was over, what happened with you and the brigade? Well, we just kept on going to another firebase and we took over O’Reilly for a while, which was a joint base, and we just continued to operate, and just pulled back because, number one, the monsoon season was coming in and that helped us pull back and it got a lot quieter. Interviewer: So, you’re basically there with them for a six month tour, so you’re there until the send back? We opened a firebase in a lot closer in to Camp Evans because of the weather, it was raining all the time, and that’s when I had a little problem with the battalion commander, who wasn’t doing a good job at all. 8:00 He didn’t take the right equipment out there, he would come into basecamp, to Camp Evans, just and just stand out there on the firebase with his troops, and then I found out that two of the company commanders just happened to run into each other in Thailand, Bangkok on R&R and my exec comes to see me at the six o’clock briefing with a smile on his face and said, “Sir, we got a problem”, and I said, “What’s that?” He said, “One of your battalion commanders is queer”, and I 38 �said, “Okay, I know which one”, so I went to see the division commander, tried to call him on the emergency channel and finally got him on the emergency channel, and told him I needed to talk to him and of course, he was mad as hell and he said, “Okay, meet me back at Camp Evans”, so I went to Camp Evans. 9:03 I saw him coming down and I came alongside with my helicopter a little bit and I let him land and then I landed mine. He saw me and he put his hands on his hips and said, “Okay Harrison, what is so God damn important right now?” I said, “Just a minute sir”, so I came up to him and told him that one of my battalion commander was alleged to be queer and is making mover on his company commander. “Jesus Christ you have to talk to him. I’ll appoint the IG to investigate this and I’ll have him personally investigated”, and I said, “Sir, I need to relieve the battalion commander today”, and he said, “What do you mean? We’ve got to investigate it”, and I said, “Sir, I have two rifle company commanders and I don’t have any others and they refuse to go in the field with him. I’ve got to relieve a lot of company commanders and other people because of the battalion commander, and I recommend the battalion commander be relieved”, so he relieved him that day. Interviewer: Aside from that particular situation, how would you rate the overall effectiveness or quality of the officers in your command? 10:06 Very high, very high Interviewer: And do you think that extended down to the level of the enlisted men as well? Was the performance level of the brigade pretty good? At the company level, by that time, NCO’s are coming back for a second tour and were smart enough to avoid a rifle company, so you had to “shake and bake” the young guys being squad leaders and we suffered for NCO’s in the rifle companies because the guys 39 �on their second tour knew how to get out of it, most of them, not all of them. I didn’t even have a Sergeant Major, a brigade Sergeant Major. He was killed in fighting over Firebase Henderson. Interviewer: Now, at what point did you really start to notice the effects of this, was this event when you first got there? Every day, every day 11:01 Interviewer: This is also a period when the Americans are still drawing units out of Vietnam at this point, and my impression is, at least, that they would then take the units that were left and assign them more and more responsibilities, or larger and larger areas to cover, is that what happened? Oh sure, sure, we were covering an area that had been covered by the 101st and two Marine divisions and the two Marine divisions were gone. Yeah, we were short of people and we were short of people in our unit- more area, more problems, more NVA coming down. Interviewer: In principle, it was supposed to be happening in the Vietnamization process, was that Vietnamese army, the ARVNs, would be coming in and filling in for, and replacing American units, and to what extent was that happening? Well it happened with Lam Son 719, this was going to prove that the Vietnamization program was working and they were going to go into Laos and destroy the two big major supply areas there in Laos. 12:05 So they assigned the 1st Division, the airborne division, and the marine division to make that invasion, and the U.S. provided all the fire support, not all, they had their own artillery, but we provided all the helicopter support 40 �with air cav and lift ships and everything, and this was going to be the big proof that Vietnamization was working, well it didn’t work too well. Interviewer: What connection did you have with that operation? Well, my reward for commanding the 3rd Brigade in the last major battle in the war for U.S. forces was to be the senior advisor of the 1st Division to go into Laos. Interviewer: That was in the spring of 1971 when that’s happening? Well, I turned over command in December, came back the first of January, and became the senior advisor for the 1st Infantry Division, and by that time, the operation had already been compromised down in Saigon, the North Vietnamese knew we were coming and they poured everybody in there to greet us. 13:07 Interviewer: How well would you say that the Vietnamese 1st Division performed in that, that’s the one you had contact with? The 1st Division, where I was the senior advisor, did a superb job. They were very well trained, highly motivated, unfortunately they lost their divisional commander and two battalion commanders, they took a lot of tough fighting and the airborne division, they got across the line a little ways, but they didn’t perform all that well, and the marine division, the same way, they got across, took a hill or two, but didn’t go very far. The rangers did real well, and the marine division and the airborne division were commanded by Three Star Generals. 14:00 I Corps, who was supposedly running the operation, was commanded by a three star, but the marine division commander and the airborne division commander refused to come to the field, they stayed in Saigon. They sent the division up there, but they never came up there, so that was a little lack of leadership, and then the I Corps commander, General Lam, was a “limp dick” if there ever was one, he didn’t do 41 �anything, so he located his forward command post in the same little hole in the mountain where we were with the 1st Division, so the 1st Division kind of ran the operation, because that was the I Corps headquarters and the 1st Division, so it lacked a lot of leadership from the top, and I’d say the whole thing was compromised. Interviewer: Were you in a position to do anything to help in any way, or did you just watch? I spent a lot of time around the TOC, because the I Corps commander, General Sutherland, came to me, punched his finger in my chest and said, “You or none of your advisors will ever go across that line, not even in a helicopter. We have direct orders from Congress there will be no advisors in Laos”. 15:12 I couldn’t go out on the battlefield, but General Thieu, who was commanding the 1st Division, he went out every day and he did a lot, he did a good job. Interviewer: So you could see, in places, where the Vietnamese, if they had the right kind leadership and material they could be effective? Oh yeah, the 1st Division was as good as the 101st in my mind, they were good. Interviewer: When did your assignment in Vietnam come to an end? One year later in the fourth of July. Interviewer: So, that’s in 1971? Yeah, 1971, you know when we got back from Lam Son 719, instead of taking an hour and a half or two hours for lunch, they took three hours for lunch, so I just didn’t have much to do after Lam Son 719. 16:05 Interviewer: Now, at this point did you think the writing was on the wall for South Vietnam or what did you think was going to happen? 42 �Well, I didn’t know at the time, but in 1972 when they had the North Vietnamese Easter offensive, the 1st Division performed superbly and drove them out a way, finally, and they defended all across South Vietnam, so they proved that with U.S. air support and U.S. supplies, they could beat the North Vietnamese invasion, and they did., they defeated the 1972 invasion. Then Church and that bunch of his idiot ass holes in Congress cut off all their supplies, cut off all their equipment, and our support, and we reneged on our agreement, we let them down. We caused the defeat. Interviewer: Ultimately the politics caught up with the whole thing. 17:02 All right, now once you left Vietnam then, at the end of that tour as an advisor, you were still in the army a while longer after that. Yeah Interviewer: What other kind of assignments did you hold? Well, my mentor and my old boss, General Senna, said that he would like me to come to Fort Hood, Texas to Project Master and I said, “Sir, Fort Hood has never been on my preference statement, but I’ll be there”, so I volunteered for Fort Hood and I went down worked for him for two years when we reconducted the air assault test when the formal testing then created the air cav brigade, the 600 Air Cav Brigade, and I was in charge of field tests for the project master, the Colonel. Interviewer: And after that? Well, I got asked to be chief of the infantry branch, which I would have been the first aviator to be chief of an infantry branch and I thought that was pretty neat, so I went to my boss, general Senna, and told him about it. 18:06 He said, “Oh, bullshit, you’re 43 �going to be promoted to brigadier next summer anyway”, so he wouldn’t let me go and fortunately I was promoted to brigadier the next summer. Interviewer: Did you stay on Fort Hood or did you get another assignment? I went to Leavenworth, Kansas to be the deputy commandant running the Infantry Staff College. Interviewer: Was that your last assignment? No, almost though, and the reason I was there was because Joe Hennessey was the commandant, he was my boss in Vietnam and he asked me to be the deputy commandant, so I got to prepare for that. Then he was replaced by General Kuschman, who was a pretty wild man and I was running the college as his deputy and he had the whole combined arms center there and then what was normally a one or two year tour, I spent three years there, Kuschman left and then I ran the college for a while. I was the acting commandant and then it was finally decided that I could go to Fort Rucker to be DCG and then the CG at the Fort Rucker and run the aviation center. 19:13 So, after my three years at Fort Leavenworth, I went to Fort Rucker. I was there for about five months when they said, “Nope, you need to go to Washington”. My congressman called me and said, “Ben, I’ve done everything I can, but I can’t stop it”, and I said, “Stop what?” He said, “You haven’t heard? Well, you’re being transferred to Washington”, and so, I went to Washington and did a special study for the chief of staff, Bernie Rogers. I did a review of the educational and professional growth program for officers. So, I did that for a year and then I was supposed to command the 25th Division in Hawaii and that got changed while the commander en route to Fort Harrison, when he was on leave, decided to retire, so they changed my orders and instead of going to command the division I got a phone 44 �call from the director of the staff, a Three Star General. 20:08 He said, “Ben Harrison, you’re going to go and command Fort Ben Harrison”, and I said, “Thank you sir”, I got up and turned to my wife and said, “Were going to Indianapolis and I’m retiring next summer”. I was pissed and that was it, so I retired the next summer, several years early, about seven years early, actually. Interviewer: But you didn’t necessarily stop working at that point? Oh, no, no Interviewer: What did you do after that? Well, I did some training studies that created some simulations for unit training and working for the Department of Defense, the DOD, Department of Defense and DRE, research and engineering. Interviewer: So you’re doing this on a contract basis? Yes, yes, defense contract consulting and traveling all over the country, doing that sort of thing. 21:00 Interviewer: So, were you also signing up with Southern Mississippi University? No, no, Southern Mississippi was just to take those tours to Vietnam that was just a short tour. Interviewer: Now, to look back on things and you look at yourself as a seventeen year old army recruit and if somebody had told you at that time that you were going to have the kind of career in the army that you wound up having, would you have believed them? Of course not, even when I was a lieutenant I wouldn’t have believed it, because my idea was to just go on active duty, marry my wife, get out after a short term of active duty, and 45 �go to the Harvard Business School. I had already been accepted and I’ll tell you about getting accepted to the Harvard business School, I was only a student at the University of Mississippi, I applied to the Harvard Business School and I got a letter saying that you have to appear before the board of admissions, but instead of coming to Harvard, we have a representative who is going to be in New Orleans on a certain date and if you like you can go to New Orleans and be interviewed there. 22:06 I went down to New Orleans, interviewed and the guy said, “I’m not supposed to tell you this, but I can guarantee that you’ll be accepted in the Harvard Business School”. Well, my head was really big and then he said, “We like to have geographical representation, and right now we don’t have a single person from Mississippi at Harvard”. Okay, so I’m the token for Mississippi. Interviewer: You get an award for showing up. Then finally the army sent me to the Harvard Business School. Interviewer: So, you did manage to get there at some point? Yes, but only for one semester for, they call it the advanced management program, but it was fun. Interviewer: Well, it makes for a heck of a story here. Is there anything else you want to throw on the record before we close out the interview, is there anything else? I’m happy. 23:48 46 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harrison, Ben (Interview transcript and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrison, Ben Description An account of the resource Ben Harrison was born in Truman, Arkansas in 1926. After first attending Arkansas State College then the University of Mississippi, Harrison enlisted in the Army because he needed the money from the G.I. Bill to help finish his school. After finishing his first enlistment, Harrison returned to school, where he enrolled in the ROTC before eventually graduating. Once he graduated from college, Harrison re-enlisted into the Army as an officer and held a variety of positions, including as an aide-de-camp to a general in a variety of locations, including Iceland and Germany. Eventually, Harrison deployed to Vietnam to take command of the 10th Aviation Battalion. Once his first tour in Vietnam ended, Harrison went to Washington D.C. and worked in the office of the Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. Eventually, Harrison returned to Vietnam as commander of the 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division. While Harrison was commander, part of the 3rd Brigade fought in one of the last major battles involving American forces in Vietnam, the battle for Firebase Ripcord. After his tour as the brigade commander ended, Harrison served as deputy commandant and commandant for several military colleges and bases throughout the U.S. before retiring. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-07 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HarrisonB1273V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0cede813881518c6b1a5cb59f9e0ca0b.mp4 4b8e0e92ca462d0c4e919138aa91b2e2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1900dc3078474ed82f5aaa430982c1c1.pdf 0856db4386c7c04c0cc0bf4b71970484 PDF Text Text Interview Notes Interview Length (18:00) William Harrison Korean War US Navy Pre-Enlistment Was a grocery store clerk before joining the Navy (0:45) Joined the Navy at 17 years old (0:45) Enlisted because he wanted to serve his country (1:00) Family lived in Michigan (7:50) Training Had 13 weeks of basic training at Great Lakes, Illinois (1:20) Worst 13 weeks of his life (1:25) Had marches, learned about ships, learned about the Navy (1:40) Food was good during training (1:55) Enlistment Served from 1950-June 1954 (0:10) Served in Europe aboard ship (0:30) Wrote home every day (2:20) Spent most free time going to see movies, doing laundry (3:40) Spent holidays eating traditions holiday foods (3:45) Learned about engines and steam (4:25) Was very happy to leave the Navy (4:40) Passed a Russian battle cruiser, and had to rush to battle stations (7:00) Saw the Russian sailors at their battle stations, as well (7:30) Made water for the Navy (10:00) Bring seawater in, condense it. Repeat as necessary until it’s distilled (10:45) Was assigned to a landing party in case they needed to go ashore for battle, but never had to go (14:00) Served on a Light Cruiser, USS Worcester (16:30) Post-Enlistment Met many friends in the Navy (5:00) Had a job as a steel worker in Boston, Massachusetts after he got out of the Navy (5:30) Wasn’t too close to the war, but glad to be of service to his country (6:10) Meets up with his shipmates once a year (9:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harrison, William (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrison, William Description An account of the resource William Harrison served in the US Navy from 1950 to June of 1954. During his time in the Navy, he served on the Light Cruiser, the USS Worcester, in the North Atlantic. He was a machinist on the ship, and distilled sea water for use aboard the ship. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Risner, Shantel (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-06-06 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HarrisonW Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f3ab5c2ab77ca63f201a8dce0cf9a59.pdf a68f11b155a762908cffa11458f4fc3c PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Jack Hart Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/1/2012 Biography and Description English Jack Hart was a primary assistant to Walter “Slim” Coleman during the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign of 1975. He continues to live and work in Chicago’s 46th Ward, primarily in the Uptown Community. In the 1970s, Hart was a member of the Intercommunal Survival Committee, a white group that supported the Black Panther Party. Members of the Committee worked with Cathy Archibald and Slim Coleman in the Lincoln Park Neighborhood Information Center. They also helped Mr. Jiménez to layout, publish, and finance one of the original Young Lords newspapers, and worked closely with the Young Lords and Mr. Jiménez until Helen Shiller was elected Alderman and Harold Washington became the first African American mayor of Chicago in 1983. Mr. Hart joined Mayor Washington’s Administration as Assistant Commissioner. During that time he was responsible for administering all of the City of Chicago’s rehabilitation loan programs. He also helped to formulate and launch the Chicago Housing partnership, Low Housing Tax Credit, and the City of Chicago’s heat receiver programs. Today he is a licensed real estate broker and Chief Financial Officer of Affordable Property Management Specialists in Chicago. �Spanish Jack Hart era el asistente de Walter “Slim” Coleman durante la campaña de Jiménez para Alderman en 1975. Señor Hart todavía vive y trabaja en el Distrito 46 de Chicago que ahora es una comunidad más nueva y elegante. En los 1907s Hart era un miembro de la Intercommunal Survival committee, un grupo de gente blanca que soportaba el Black Panther Party. Miembros de esa organización trabajaron con Cathy Archibald y Slim Coleman en la el Centro de Información del Vecindario en Lincoln Park. También ayudaron a Señor Jiménez hacer, publicar y financiar uno de los periódicos originales de los Young Lords, y trabajo cerca con Jiménez y los Young Lords hasta 1983 donde Helen Shiller fue elijada como Alderman y Harold Washington fue el primer Afroamericano alcalde de Chicago. Señor Hart junto con la administración de Alcalde Washington, como Asistente del Comisario. Durante este tiempo era responsable de administrar todos los programas de prestemos para la rehabilitación de la cuidad de Chicago. El también ayudo formular y lanchar la asociación de Chicago Housing, Low Housing Tax Credit, y el programa de calefacción de la cuidad de Chicago. Ahora es un agente de urbanización y también el principal Oficial de Financias en Affordable Property Management Specialists en Chicago. �Transcript JACK HART: All right, I’m Jack Hart. I currently am the director of the Affordable Property Management Specialists which is a property management company which specializes in affordable housing. We currently manage 390 apartments on the south side, west side, and this is our -- 4040 N. Sheridan Ruth Shriman House, that’s where we’re at now, that’s one of our projects on the north side. I’ve been managing basically affordable housing since 1988, 1989, somewhere around there. Prior to that, I was the assistant commissioner of housing in the Harold Washington administration. That was from 1984 until 1989. [00:01:00] And then prior to that, I was the director of the Heart of Uptown Coalition Intercommunal Survival Committee going back to 1970. JOSE JIMENEZ: Back to 1970? JH: Yeah. JJ: What is your connection with the Young Lords, basically? JH: Well, that goes way back. In 1970, somewhere thereabouts -- well, I first met you when you were underground or something in Milwaukee. I think you were someplace like that. You were on the lam from -- JJ: What does that mean, underground? JH: That means you were hiding out from the law. Well, 1970, I think, the Young Lords had taken over the church on Armitage and -- what was that street? Dayton. Yeah. I was with Slim Coleman, and Cathy Archibald, and then what 1 �was called the People’s Information [00:02:00] Center. We were like two blocks away from the church there. At that time, there was a coalition -JJ: And who were they connected to, the People’s Information center? JH: I was going to say the coalition existed, but your Black Panther Party, Fred Hampton had basically espoused the idea that white revolutionaries or poor white people who were sympathetic to the Black liberation struggle at that time should be organizing in their own communities. So the People’s Information Center was a group of white radicals, so to speak, who were affiliated with the Black Panther Party. And our job was to begin to organize amongst poor white people with a clear connection between the political struggle [00:03:00] in poor white areas and the liberation struggle of both Black people and other people of color. The Young Lords organization had been involved with Fred Hampton in various kind of rainbow coalitions we called it back then. One of the things was to-you had what we called survival programs. So the Young Lords basically took over this church and were going to set up a health clinic there and various other community programs. So there was a natural affiliation between us, the Black Panther Party, and the Young Lords organization. JJ: So you were organizing in Lincoln Park? JH: Yeah, the first thing we were doing was, again, urban renewal in Lincoln Park. Lincoln Park, at that time, was a fairly poor neighborhood [00:04:00] particularly around Armitage and Halsted was mostly Puerto Rican. You go a little bit further south, I forget the name of the street now, but that was also Blacks, it was Puerto -- it was a concentration of Puerto Rican and Black, and hillbillies mixed in there, 2 �poor white people. So the struggle which was being developed by the Young Lords and other people was to fight the city’s plans to gentrify these areas -- to remove the people, the poor people, and to replace them with a more affluent -- I mean that’s really what happened. So Lincoln Park, if you went there today, you try to tell someone that was a poor area, they’d think you were crazy. I mean I remember we had an apartment, just as an example, on Halsted in 19-- threebedroom apartment on [00:05:00] Halsted in 1970 rented for about $95 a month. Now that same apartment today would probably cost you $3,000 a month. (laughs) JJ: What were some of the things that the Information Center did? JH: Well, we did pretty much whatever the Black Panther Party did. I mean we distributed the Black Panther party newspaper all over the city in white areas. We had various -- like a free breakfast program, and various kinds of educational programs for children, we had a health clinic which we sponsored -- free health clinic. And then we had various other food and shoe giveaways and various things like that. JJ: When did you begin your involvement? Kind of going back a little bit. JH: My first contact was in January of [00:06:00] 1970 which was shortly after Fred Hampton had been murdered. I responded to an ad in the newspaper -- in a seed newspaper it was called which was kind of like an alternative newspaper. They were looking for people to join the Venceremos Brigade which was -- at that time, it was illegal to go Cuba, so they were taking groups of college-aged students to Cuba to participate in the Cuban revolution by assisting them with 3 �sugar cane cutting and things like that. So every year, they put together a group from around the country of 40, 50 people who would then go to Cuba for three months. So I signed up to go on this Venceremos Brigade. And one of the requirements was in the six months preceding the trip, [00:07:00] which was supposed to be in July, you were supposed to be involved in active community organizing. So the people who were sponsoring us were from the People’s Information Center, so I started working with them in January of 1970. And as it turned out, I was dropped from the trip at the last minute and I just ended up staying. (laughs) JJ: And the reason that you were dropped was -- JH: They had cut the quota, there was some immigration issues with the U.S. government. You couldn’t travel to Cuba, so what you had to do was go to Canada, and then you got a visa from Canada to Cuba. And apparently the Canadian government could only take so many people, and so there were 15 of us who were dropped from the trip at the last minute, and I was one of them. JJ: Why would you answer an ad to go to Cuba? I mean (inaudible). [00:08:00] What was your development in terms of (inaudible)? JH: Well, I mean I guess the original thing goes back to -- I was pretty much fresh out of high school, but what was going on in the country -- JJ: You were in Chicago? JH: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so you grew up in Chicago? 4 �JH: Yeah, and Schiller Park was actually -- I was in Chicago until I was about fifth, sixth grade, and then we moved out to the suburbs which was Schiller Park which was right next to the airport there. I went to East Leyden High School in Franklin Park. At that time, in the country, because of the -- you know, the civil rights movement was going on, the war in Vietnam was raging, so there was a big anti-war movement, and it was a fairly active time for people who were seeking social change. [00:09:00] When I was in high school, I was enlightened to the point that I was participating in civil rights in various other things from a standpoint of justice, I guess. So I don’t know. I was just looking for some way to make a difference. I was sort of bored with college, and it seemed like something to do. I mean the consciousness in the country at that time was fairly high because there was a draft, so everybody, when you were 18 years old, graduated from high school, had to face the reality of either avoiding the Army or fighting a war which most people at the time were opposed to. So I think that was sort of the impetus to get involved. And then just one thing sort of led to another. (laughs) JJ: [00:10:00] So you’ve had involvement -- this was around ’68, ’69? JH: ’70. JJ: Around ’70, okay. So this was after -- JH: Yeah, Fred Hampton was killed on December 4th of ’69. JJ: Did you go to that? 5 �JH: That’s what sort of led me to the People’s Information Center ’cause there was a connection there between them and the Black Panther Party. In the process, they said, “Well, these same people are sponsoring this trip to Cuba.” JJ: So how long did you stay in Lincoln Park then? And did you live in Lincoln Park at all? JH: Yeah, we lived in -- I mean I lived there in various apartments all around Lincoln Park. We had an apartment on Lincoln and Little, 2400 North Lincoln, and we had one on Halsted. We moved around [00:11:00] that area. JJ: This was you or the Information Center? JH: The office was at 2154 North Halsted, so the organization, it started out, there was like six or seven of us. And then as it developed, we ended up with 15, 20 hardcore people, and three or four of us would share an apartment. 1972 is when we had a big event at the Aragon Ballroom. It was called the “Campaign to End Police Brutality and Establish Community Control” where we gave away 3,000 bags of groceries at the Aragon Ballroom. The idea there was to introduce the Black Panther party to the people of Uptown. So around late ’71, early ’72 we started circulating a petition door to door in [00:12:00] Uptown. Some still in Lincoln Park, but Lincoln Park, at that time, was already beginning to be gentrified. Uptown was more of a concentration of poor white people. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, (inaudible). 6 �JH: Okay, so what was I saying? All right, so we had this thing at the Aragon, and idea was to -- we were trying to establish a base amongst poor white people in Uptown which was a really a concentration of -- JJ: What do you mean by base? Can you explain that? JH: A political base, a place where we could establish some kind of political power. So what we did was we had this what we called this “Campaign to End Police Brutality and Establish Community [00:13:00] Control.” And we went around circulating petitions, and then all the people who signed the petition from this area, we then went to visit them at their house, and we offered them a subscription to the Black Panther Party newspaper, A, and, B, we invited them to come to the Aragon Ballroom for this rally where they would receive a free bag of groceries and they could listen to the leaders of the Black Panther Party speak. So that was our first foray into Uptown. At that time, one of the theories here was we wanted to begin to get involved in the electoral process on some level. So the first effort was to defeat Edward Hanrahan who was the state’s attorney who was responsible for the murder of Fred Hampton. [00:14:00] So the idea was to begin to get people to vote. In Chicago, at the time, everybody voted for the Democratic machine, and they controlled everything primarily because they controlled city services. So if you wanted city services, then you had to support your precinct captain and then you would get city services. And so we were trying to change some of that so people could begin to vote their conscience instead of just following the party lines, so to speak. So the idea was to begin to identify the people who we could pull into our overall program. So we used this 7 �petition, and then the idea was to visit them, get them involved in our programs, register them to vote, and get them [00:15:00] to vote against the Democratic candidate for state’s attorney who was this Edward Hanrahan who was the one who had killed Fred Hampton. JJ: So you had the food drive and then you did a voter registration drive? JH: Right. JJ: Okay, and this was in ’72? JH: It’s hard to remember exact dates. All this sort of runs together. I mean we were involved in various kind of voter registration efforts over the years. Cha, when you ran for alderman, what year was that? JJ: We announced, I believe, at the end of ’73. JH: ’73, okay. So this was this sort of Edward Hanrahan, “Defeat the Butcher” it was called, I believe that was ’72 or ’73, somewhere around there. That campaign was actually successful particularly in the Black community where people [00:16:00] in droves voted against Ed Hanrahan. In fact, the state’s attorney who was elected was Bernard Carey who was a Republican and that was like the first time a Republican had been elected in a Cook-county wide office in like 25, 30 years. We saw that success, and that people -- if the issue was right, people could be moved to go against the entrenched powers, so to speak. We opened up an office at 1056 West Lawrence around 1973, May of ’73. And then we continued to establish programs in the Uptown area. I think at this time, and the Young Lords -- JJ: That’s the [00:17:00] Heart of Uptown Coalition? 8 �JH: Yeah, we went under various -- the parent organization, the cadre organization which was the hardcore people was called the Intercommunal Survival Committee. That was a committee of the Black Panther Party. We were answerable directly to the Black Panther Party. JJ: So you had a core group called the Intercommunal Survival Committee? JH: Right. JJ: And then this was more like a mass (inaudible)? JH: Yeah, the Heart of Uptown Coalition was sort of like our public arm where anybody who shared our political viewpoint, which was basically that the people should control their own communities, they could join the Heart of Uptown Coalition which was a much broader thing. The Intercommunal Survival Committee were really hardcore revolutionaries. We saw ourselves as hardcore revolutionaries. We [were involved in?] armed struggle [00:18:00] to overthrow the government. (laughter) And there was probably an inner core of maybe 20, 25 people who were actually -- we were run sort of like a military organization. I think at that time, Cha-Cha, who was the head of the Young Lords, had just gotten out of -- JJ: So you ran a military organization, but you actually were more focused on organizing? JH: Yeah. I mean it was the idea of -- JJ: Military discipline but you were focused on organizing. JH: Right, exactly. We weren’t really -- I mean I don’t want to get into all that other shit, but (laughter) -- 9 �JJ: (inaudible). JH: The focus, of course, was organizing the community for political power. The significance of the hardcore group was that these are really dedicated people that are involved in this 24 hours a day, [00:19:00] 7 days a week, and really believed in what they were doing. So I think at that time we still had visions of this rainbow coalition which was -- JJ: Because you actually were kind of living together and everything, right? JH: Yeah. Well, we would share apartments. I mean there’s like three or four of us in an apartment. JJ: So you were really tightly knit? JH: Yeah. I mean we were on call 24/7 and involved in various -- I mean there were other things going on just other than the political organizing. Like I said, we were involved in covert activities for the Black Panthers and various other things, but that’s a whole ’nother discussion. JJ: You went to the campaign? JH: So Cha-Cha of the Young Lords had just gotten out of jail, or just returned from being underground, or something like that. I don’t remember exactly what it was. So they announced [00:20:00] that they were re-establishing an office, I think it was on Wilton and Grace. And as part of that, Cha-Cha announced that he was going to run for alderman of the 46th Ward. Given the nature of the 46th Ward, I’m not sure we ever really believed that we were going to win this election because 60 percent of the ward are fairly affluent people on the lakefront. But the idea was to use the election as an organizing vehicle to A, tighten the 10 �coalition between Hispanics and poor white people, and continue to develop this model of trying to take over the political power of this particular area. One of the theories that Huey Newton had at the time -- who was head of the Black Panther Party -- was sort of modeled after Mao’s Long March. [00:21:00] In other words, the idea was to concentrate forces in particular areas. So like the 46th Ward in Uptown, this is an area if we could take over and be the political -- take over politically, that would give us a base to then move on into broader actions. And that was sort of the springboard, was the 46th Ward. And the first attempt was when we ran Cha-Cha for alderman. And that was one of the very active political campaigns where we would give a lot of actions related to drawing attention to urban renewal, and how the area’s being gentrified, and coalitions amongst various poor people -- Hispanics, and Whites, and Blacks, and Hispanics, and so on and so forth. So the idea was to continue to develop our programs [00:22:00] and get people involved in the political process. JJ: Continue to develop the health clinic and other programs that you had? JH: Yeah. Eventually we -- JJ: What programs did you have at that time? JH: Again, time sort of runs together here, but eventually we moved our office from Lawrence over to Wilson Avenue, and Wilson Avenue’s a real large facility. And there we had a legal aid clinic, we had -- help people get on public aid, welfare assistance, we had a health clinic, we had a prisoner visitation program, we had a magazine that was published on site there, Keep Strong Magazine, and I think we had -- well, all kinds of various food cooperatives. We used to have a 11 �monthly meeting at the hall for -- sort of replaced church, where people would come and we’d discuss the events of the day. [00:23:00] And sort of the springboard for various campaigns. The main thing going on in the city at the time was certain neighborhoods were being gentrified, and people were being moved out, and Uptown was one of them. And it was a fairly [insidious?] thing. There was a lot of arson, and places being burned down, and people being moved out, and them building new condos, and so on and so forth. JJ: I remember they had a -- 20/20 did a piece, arson for profit. So you’re saying there was a lot of arson, can you name -- JH: Well, for instance, Truman College is one example in Uptown. Truman College wasn’t there. That was all housing, same type of housing as the rest of Uptown which was -- and the buildings were one by one vacated. When the owners were resistant to selling to urban renewal, [00:24:00] they were burned down. They eventually took over the whole -- from Wilson to Sunnyside, Clifton to Magnolia, that whole area was wiped out and that’s where they built the college. And there was a lot of various low-income buildings that were closed down and either torn down or re-habed but not for the benefit of the people in the neighborhood, but a new class of people being moved in. JJ: So arson was one method to get rid of some of the buildings, but any other methods used by city? JH: You would get an owner who was in cahoots with them, and they wouldn’t fix up the building, and the city would come in and close it down. Or places would 12 �become so unlivable [00:25:00] that people would have to move. So eventually they cleared out the whole area. JJ: So now you got the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign. How did you kind of restructure? How was that done? JH: Again, it was coalition -- JJ: I think that was a change, so I’m trying to see how it changed the group that you were working with (inaudible) Uptown? JH: We broadened our base, so to speak. In other words, the Heart of Uptown Coalition became a bigger organization, but we pulled in a lot of various affiliated groups. JJ: How did you do that? I mean what was the process? JH: Gee, I don’t know. (laughs) JJ: How did you directly do that? What (inaudible)? JH: Our main operation that we constantly were involved in was door to door. What we did was on a weekly basis [00:26:00] we would have a list of people who were either sympathetic or in the middle on every block in the community, and every week we would go to their house and we would bring them a Black Panther Party newspaper, and get into an argument with them over what was in there, A, and B, we would then ask them if they needed any kind of services, if they had any problems, if they had any legal problems, any other issues. And then the person who was (inaudible) would make what we called a follow-up list, and he would say, “These people need legal help,” and then we would send somebody else behind them to provide them with whatever legal -- hook them into the 13 �resources that we had developed to get them the assistance they needed. The idea being that people would then turn to us for assistance rather than the precinct captain, [00:27:00] that is you’re trying to change the focus of the politics. The same thing would be true for, say, if you had a [block club?], and they were interested in an issue on the block, say they needed a particular abandoned building torn down because it was a problem with drugs or something, then we would adopt that as one of our issues, and then pull all of the people who were involved in that into our umbrella group, and it just went on from that. I think the first thing was in ’73, ’74 when Cha-Cha ran for alderman, but I think he ended up getting 25 percent of the vote or something like that. And then I think in ’77, Helen Shiller -JJ: Thirty-eight percent. JH: Thirty-eight, okay. Thirty-eight percent. I don’t mean to sell you short. [00:28:00] (laughter) We had a good showing in our particular base areas, but if you took the ward as a whole, like I said, it was a more difficult proposition. I think we then ran again in ’77, Helen ran, lost that election. JJ: Helen Shiller. JH: Helen Shiller. Then in ’79 or something like that, we ran. We kept running in the elections, and, eventually -- and then as this particular movement which started in the 46th Ward and other places began to develop on a city-wide basis. So voter registration and trying to involve people more in the political process particularly in the poorer areas, that whole thing sort of culminated with the election of Harold Washington in 1983. 14 �JJ: So there was a direct link between -- JH: Oh, definitely. I mean maintain that without the [00:29:00] ground work that we did here that Harold Washington would’ve never been elected mayor. That was really the significance of it. I think when Harold ran for mayor -- I forget what year it was, ’82 or ’83 -- I mean we ended up registering that year something like 260,000 people to vote on a city-wide basis. At that time, in order to register to vote, you had to go downtown to register to vote. And they had one day, just like 30 days before the election, you could register to vote in your precinct; but other than that, the only way you could register to vote would be to actually go to city hall. So we used to bus people from all over the city every Saturday down to the city hall to register to vote. In that year leading up to Harold’s election, we registered I want to say about 250,000 people which [00:30:00] without those 250,000 people we never would have won that election. We started out going door to door in Uptown, and basically as you expand that, it eventually became a city-wide movement and that’s -- ended up electing Harold mayor. JJ: Now, what was your role back in the Jimenez campaign? What was your role? I mean what was your position and (inaudible)? JH: I mean it’s hard to remember. I was always the person who was in charge of the logistics of the organization. In other words, I was sort of like the administrative director. So all the people who worked for us basically went through me. I was the overall administrator of the organization. JJ: And you remained in this post all the way through -- up to [00:31:00] the Harold Washington election? 15 �JH: I mean in terms of the cadre of hardcore people then, I was always their director. In terms of the campaign, when Harold was -- (break in audio) JH: Just to backtrack a little bit -- again, the roots of this movement go back to 19691970. It actually probably goes back further than that, but it’s sort of the history of the [I don’t know if you want to call it?] revolutionary struggles, but -- so a lot of this came out of the civil rights/student protest movements of the late ’60s early ’70s. And people, at the time, are looking for [00:32:00] a meaningful way to take it to the next step. So in other words, the root of it is the civil rights movement, number one, and the Black Panther Party who was espousing the position that the Black -- the movement for civil rights was the vanguard struggle, but particularly Fred Hampton had the idea that this wasn’t really a Black -- a struggle just for Black nationalism, but it was a class struggle and should involve all oppressed peoples. So he made an effort to coalesce with other communitybased movements which had their basis in the civil rights movement, but were also involved in some kind of community struggles for control of the community. Back in the late ’60s in most major cities in the country it was true that most [00:33:00] Black and Hispanic people had very little political power, A, and B, were subject to fairly oppressive measures by the police and other people. So police brutality was a serious issue and -- (break in audio) JJ: Police brutality. 16 �JH: So there was various things going on, sort of like grassroots type movements. In Uptown, there was this group called the Young Patriots who were trying to organize poor whites. And at the time, I think the Young Lords who originally started out as sort of a street gang had begun to develop into more of a political organization patterned after the Black Panther Party. And so the Young Patriots sort of faded away, but the Young Lords and the [00:34:00] Intercommunal Survival Committee -- there was another group of white revolutionaries called Rising Up Angry -- they all sort of -- since they were doing pretty much the same things in their own community, it was sort of a natural coalition. There was a particularly a push by Fred Hampton that we should be -- I think he used to say, “Black people should be organizing Black people, and Brown people Brown people, and white people white people.” But we all have the same -- let me turn this damn thing off here. We all have the same goals. So it was sort of natural that we would work together. JJ: So you started working with the Young Lords in Lincoln Park? JH: Yeah. Again, it was on and off, but we were basically involved on a [00:35:00] consistent basis with anybody who was organizing the community along the same means that we were. So the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, and us, pretty much, in Chicago that were -- those were the three groups that spearheaded the whole movement. JJ: After Fred Hampton was murdered, and Mark Clark, was there like a vacuum or something? And did this movement kind of a take a leadership role at that time? 17 �JH: Bobby Rush who was the minister of defense for the Black -- he sort of stepped right in after Fred was -- so Fred was sort of a dynamic person. His murder actually did a lot to heighten people’s consciousness, so to speak. Whatever the powers that [00:36:00] be had intended -- they thought that that was going to wipe out the movement, and it actually had the opposite effect. JJ: So the movement grew? JH: Yeah. I mean, again, the whole impetus for the first foray into electoral politics in Chicago which eventually ended up in the election of Harold Washington was the murder of Fred Hampton, beyond a doubt. It was that movement of getting rid of Ed Hanrahan which was the first serious effort to challenge the actual political process. Prior to that, it was protest movements and marches. JJ: And was there also an Oakland election going on also? JH: Well, yeah, Bobby Seale who was head of the Black Panther Party was running for mayor of Oakland. Elaine Brown was running for councilwoman. That was part of what I call like the grand march theory. In other words, the idea was -what the Black Panther Party [00:37:00] did was they closed most of their chapters all over the country and moved everybody to Oakland. And the idea was to establish a base of operations in Oakland to eventually seize political power in the city and to use that as a model to show the rest of the country that this is what we can do as revolutionaries. This will be the difference in terms of how people control their own community. They had a ten-point platform and various things -- people have a right to food, and clothing, and shelter, things like that. The Intercommunal Survival, we adopted a similar strategy, the idea was to 18 �pull in all various people from all over the country who were involved in this struggle with the Black Panther Party to work in Chicago, in the community, in the 46th Ward, and then try to use that as a base [00:38:00] of power. You know, one of the things with the 46th Ward, again, in this community, was it was a very diverse community. You had a concentration of Appalachian whites, but you also had a concentration of Puerto Ricans in northern Lakeview. So it was sort of a natural -JJ: It was sort of segregated then. JH: Yeah. I mean the city was tremendously segregated, always has been. It still is to some extent, but even more so back then. Uptown was the white ghetto, and Lincoln Park, Lake View, West Town were Puerto Ricans, and Pilsen is where Mexicans lived, and Black people lived on the south and west side, you know, certain [00:39:00] defined areas. And people didn’t mix very well. So part of the thing was you would organize your own community, but it wouldn’t be an isolated thing. In other words, Puerto Ricans should order Puerto Ricans but they shouldn’t only stay amongst Puerto Ricans. We need a place where we can come together and coalesce because we share the same problems. (laughs) JJ: What were some of the events of that campaign that you recall? Any specific ones? JH: The Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign? JJ: Yeah. JH: It’s hard to remember, that’s 40 years ago, but I mean I remember we used to -the guy who was running against him was Chris Cohen, and he was sort of a 19 �victim of our -- he probably didn’t turn out to be such a bad guy in the end. His daddy was the head of HUD or something. [00:40:00] We used to follow him around. Anytime he had an appearance, we would show up with 200 people. We had the anti-arson thing, I think that was during that campaign. I don’t know, I can’t remember. I remember following Chris Cohen around. (laughs) The main thing, I think, was the voter registration thing. It doesn’t seem like that’s significant now, but, again, you got to go back 40 years and see that the whole voter registration process was completely controlled by the Democratic machine. This was the first attempt to break that. They made it real difficult for anybody to register to vote unless you went through them. I remember every [00:41:00] Saturday we would rent six vans and each load them up with 15 people and we’d bring 100 people downtown to register to vote. That was a big deal back then. JJ: So there was this campaign, the Jiménez campaign, and there were other -- the Shiller campaign came after that? JH: Yeah, a couple of Shiller campaigns. JJ: Did you see any impact of all these campaigns and all this organizing? JH: I mean, again, ’79 is when Jane Byrne got elected mayor, so that was first time someone other than Democratic machine got elected in Chicago. That was sort of a fluke because it was based on the weather and other things. [00:42:00] I mean I think the grassroots organizing that went on culminated in, again, the election of Harold Washington in ’83. That was a real candidate who was based in the community. In addition to that, we won a number of aldermanic races all over the city. Bobby Rush was elected alderman of the 2nd Ward, Helen Shiller 20 �was elected in the 46th Ward, and Luis Gutiérrez was elected in -- I can’t remember the name of the ward -- 29th, maybe. Dorothy Tillman was another one. These were all grassroots people who were elected outside of the power that had existed prior to that. And that election, we basically, [00:43:00] with Harold Washington, took over the city government. In 1983 when Harold was first elected, he didn’t have a majority so the fight between the -- I think it was the 29 and the 21 -- there was 21 alderman who were with Harold and 29 who were with right white wing, mostly white, mostly racist. Interestingly enough, most of the Puerto Rican alderman sided with Harold and the Mexican ones with the white people and the white power structure. In the subsequent election which was ’87 -- I think there was a special election in ’85 where we were actually able to gain a majority in the city council. And the city was beginning to change directions. The machine was being broken up and there was real [00:44:00] political power in city hall, the people had a real voice. Unfortunately, Harold died and then the whole thing sort of fell apart. There was a time that even the reactionary Black politicians who had sided for the machine for so long, they even sided with Harold because that’s where the power was rooted. His power was really rooted in the community. Again, the political organizing that started in 1971 was really the basis of it without a doubt. (break in audio) JH: You can edit this if you want. I guess what happened here is that the -- when Harold was elected -- 1983, 1984 the Black Panther Party and [00:45:00] similar organizations who had been victimized for a number of years by the FBI, and the 21 �COINTEL Program, and drugs in the community -- I mean this was a concerted effort to demonize certain persons who were the leaders of the movement. Fred Hampton was murdered, but Oakland, California and the base of the Black Panther Party was inundated with drugs. Crack cocaine made its appearance in the ghettos in the early ’80s. This was not an accident. One of the problems in our community, in particular amongst poor people, has always been we’re susceptible to certain vices. Part of it is because of the difficulty of living in poverty. Drugs, alcohol that’s a natural -- [00:46:00] I’m not trying to make excuses for people, but this is a natural phenomenon. It seems that certain powers that be -- I’m not a great conspiracy theorist, but to me it’s factual that these communities are inundated with drugs. A lot of the leaders of the Black Panther party and Young Lords, other organizations fell into the trap, and got addicted to drugs, or got involved in drugs, or the money was alluring, or the gangster lifestyle, or whatever it was. But at the same time that the political movements are becoming more successful to some extent, a lot of the leaders of these various -- are being picked off, and the organizations are having a difficult time sustaining themselves. The Black Panther Party -- basically Huey Newton was continually arrested, and [00:47:00] harassed, and fighting trial after trial. And all the resources of the organization are going into defending the leaders, and, eventually, the organization begins to fall apart. After the last round of arrests and murders of various Panthers, the organization just sort of disintegrated so that by ’83, ’84 the model of these cadre type organizations is -were beginning to fall apart. In some places where they were able to achieve 22 �some political power it continued on other levels. I say that because by 1984 when Harold was elected, I pretty much dropped out of the movement, so to speak, but took a job with the Washington Administration as, the way I saw it, payback for all the years that I spent [00:48:00] in the struggle. So I went to work in the housing department, and went back to school, and got a degree in finance. Seeing this as sort of a victory -- in other words, all these years of struggling on the streets culminated in us now being part of the government. So we worked for the government for five, six years. And a lot of the people I had worked with all these years were now -- you know, all got government jobs in the city administration at some level or other. When Harold died, the struggle again was sort of bought off to some extent, and there was really no leaders to sustain the movement, so it sort of faded away. Most of us who were active took jobs in [00:49:00] various types of fields that were still of benefit to the community, but we could make a living. So I’ve been basically involved in affordable housing partly because I worked for the city for five, six years under Harold, and worked in the housing department, and so it was sort of natural that I would -JJ: What was your perspective when you were in there? I mean you said you were in a different level now. You’re working as part of the government even though you -- of course, you’ve always been progressive, (laughs) you’re still progressive. (inaudible) see any other type of perspective? (inaudible) activist? JH: The idea was that the resource of the government can now be used to directly benefit the people rather than -- so in other words, we’re not fighting the government, we’re now the government who was going to dole out the resources 23 �and that we would be able to come up with a plan that would really have an effect on the [00:50:00] community, which would improve the lives of the people. Now, you know, we were a little bit naïve because we didn’t realize how entrenched the political power was. So even though you took over -- nominally you took over the government, you didn’t really because the people who actually run things on the underneath are still there and they’re going to fight you tooth and nail. But, see, that whole movement has a lot of significance. Because we were so close to achieving political power, and there was a cultural change developing in the country, that caused a backlash. So what’s happening today with the Republicans, and the whole Reagan revolution and all that, that was a direct result of the push from the left that caused the right to push back. [00:51:00] In other words, the rich actually felt threatened by these movements, these attempts for people to seize political power, to seize the means of production. So they determined not to let this happen, and so this is -- the whole Tea Party movement and the whole Republican entrenchment of the right is a direct result of these movements of the ’80s and ’90s. So I don’t think I’ve ever really lost my perspective on this. I think part of the problem is we were able to get a certain level of community control, but we weren’t able to get to the next step. Part of that is because of the way the system is set up. We’re still in a class struggle, and the rich still control the means of the production, and even probably more so than was true 15, 20 years ago. [00:52:00] But to a large extent it’s still the same struggle. It’s still a struggle for community control, it’s still a struggle for control of 24 �the resources, to use the resources to benefit the majority of people rather than the chosen one, two percent. JJ: There was this housing plan, right? And there was like a 50-year housing plan, a master plan, for the city? JH: Yeah, Plan 21. JJ: Plan 21 and all that. Looking at it from that perspective of being within the government, you kind of mentioned that we still didn’t have any control. We still didn’t have any power. It didn’t change at all, did it? JH: Well, it changed to some extent, but, again, you see, one of the problems was it was a very small window here. In other words, when Harold seized control of the city hall, [00:53:00] he died four years or five years later and we were never really able to effect the change that we had wanted to effect although it did -- see, the original thing was -- I mean you can go back to the ’60s and ’70s in Chicago, the idea was to concentrate resources in the inner city and make that -- that was Chicago, downtown. Well, the neighborhoods were suffering, and all the resources of the city were directed at the inner city, the downtown area and immediate areas around it at the expense of the neighborhood. I think what the movement for community control represented was an attempt to shift some of those resources back to the neighborhoods [00:54:00] although it probably didn’t go far enough. You can see the difference between Richie Daley Sr. and Richie Daley Jr. Richie Daley Sr. didn’t care, “Screw all you, we’ll do it my way.” Richie Daley Jr. was able to buy off most communities because he did see the need to distribute some of the city’s resources back to the neighborhoods. 25 �JJ: What do you mean he bought them? How did he do that? JH: For instance, every alderman was given a fund of, say, ten million dollars a year to use in the community. That would’ve never happened under Richie J. Daley. That was a result of the community organizing. There was a certain attempt to listen to some of the local representatives, and give that money for streets and sidewalks, and there was housing developed [00:55:00] in the communities, you know, not for profits, low-income housing, the tax credit program, there was various use of various federal housing programs, an attempt to rebuild public housing. It was more -- JJ: But did the plan change at all or (inaudible) -- a new revamped plan? JH: I mean the essence of it probably didn’t change. I mean I think we slowed down the process. We were able to strengthen the neighborhoods to some extent, we probably didn’t go far enough, but I think without that movement no telling what would have happened. JJ: (inaudible). JH: I think the city’s probably much more open. JJ: They slowed it down, but there’s still (inaudible) -- JH: I mean the money [00:56:00] is still there. JJ: More poor people on the lakefront. JH: Well, that’s true, but that has to do with the whole focus of the country to a large extent. The class thing has become more pronounced than it ever has been. But, again, you could argue that that’s a result of our movement, not them winning, but there’s a pushback to what -- like I said before, the campaign for 26 �community control hasn’t ended. I think the government in the city is much more responsive than it was 30 years ago, but did we succeed? Probably not. But did we have an effect? Yeah, definitely. JJ: What about like today there’s a whole thing about foreclosures and stuff like that. How does [00:57:00] the past relate to today -- today’s housing situation? JH: I have a hard time making the connections between the movements back then and what’s going on today, but the thing there was that -- the part of the pushback was to deregulate, to give the banks and other people more power. That was the whole Reagan revolution. Greed was good. Greed is good. That’s the American thing, and no one should be ostracized for that. [00:58:00] The big bankers and stuff saw a way to make a lot of money and they used the people as ploys in a game. It was only a matter of time before -- it was like you’re building a house of cards, well, eventually, it’s going to collapse. The fundamental question we’re faced with now is not that much different than it was forty years ago: are the majority of people going to have any control over the political process or the use of resources in the community or is everything going to be controlled by the top one or two percent? And that’s really the same struggle that we had back then. We probably lost ground to some extent because that one percent is more entrenched and they own more resources than they ever did. I mean I see this [00:59:00] presidential election as pry the most critical election we’ve ever had in this country. And to me, the election of Barack Obama was the result -- that’s like a direct extension of what happened in Chicago with the election of Harold Washington. The people are dissatisfied, they’re looking for an 27 �alternative, they elect the alternative, and then the powers that be do everything they can to attack everything that he does and make sure that nothing he does can be successful, and then they go around saying, “Everybody see? He can’t do this. You got to stick with us.” And that’s sort of what -- we need to take this to the next step. I think what happened here was that we got there but didn’t know what to do when we got there. (laughs) In other words, we got political power to some extent, but now that we’re sitting there in the seat, “Now what do we do?” Eventually, we were going to figure this out, but the other side [01:00:00] pushes back on this and they will use every opportunity to attack, attack, attack. And since they control the media and other things, we’re up against it. The problem today is that people are more easily manipulated because the media and everything is so much more invasive. They’re bombarded 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and a lot of the safeguards that were built in, protecting people from falsehoods and certain people controlling the media have all been removed. I mean you have Fox News, that has no journalistic value at all. They just say whatever the hell they want to say. You keep repeating the same thing over and over again, people will believe it. The whole idea of these super PACs where they can -- [01:01:00] one millionaire can put a billion dollars into Romney’s campaign and control the message. So we’ll see. We’ll see how gullible people are this year. Can people be manipulated to vote against their own self-interest or in the end will people -- we’ll see. (break in audio) 28 �JH: I guess the lesson here is that the campaign for community control was an important step. The problem was that maybe we didn’t take it far enough. And again, like I just said, I think where we’re at now is we’ll see what happens in this -- this presidential election will say a lot [01:02:00] as to whether or not we had any -- whether the movement was minimally successful, or are we going to continue to advance the rights of the people? Or are we going to go backwards? JJ: What you’re trying to say is that this presidential election is a result of all these (inaudible)? How is (inaudible)? JH: Well, I think it’s a culmination of where we started. In other words, this was a grassroot movement for people to seize political power, to allow people to have a voice in their own government, in their own communities, to make the institutions of government serve the people. I think we were able to get to a certain point and certain places in this country where that was successful. Because of the pushback by the right wing and other people, we basically regressed a little bit so people [01:03:00] had to retreat. People continue to have an effect through other means by being involved in housing, or healthcare, or other issues. I think on a national level, various progressive people that were put in place all over the country were able to elect a fairly progressive president, but, again, you can see the pushback over the last four years from the right wing trying to reverse that. So now we’ve come to the point -- are we going to step forward or are we going to allow ourselves to pushed all the way back into the pit again? Again, I’m sort of at the point where it’s sort of -- judgment is still -- the jury is still out on whether or not we were successful in what we were attempting to do back in the ’60s and 29 �’70s. [01:04:00] I know that one success was the -- I mean racism and the ability of people of different types of ethnic backgrounds to interact, a lot of doors were opened that weren’t open before, but, again, are we going to take that on to -- it really comes to the point are you going to wipe out the middle class in this country? Are you going to have a third world country where one percent of the people control everything and everybody else lives in crime and poverty? Or are you going to continue to build a movement where people have some control over their resources and are able to improve their lives? We’ll see. That’s sort of where we’re at. I think that’s where we started and we’re sort of back there again. If we can take the next step and continue to build a power base in the communities where people have [01:04:00] some control over their lives then we’ll be there, but maybe not. (laughter) END OF VIDEO FILE 30 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fafc6bef264cec85a57843bfc1316a5.mp4 fd820427b039148751dd8f1378f322d6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Jack Hart vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Jack Hart era el asistente de Walter “Slim” Coleman durante la campaña de Jiménez para Alderman en 1975. Señor Hart todavía vive y trabaja en el Distrito 46 de Chicago que ahora es una comunidad más nueva y elegante. En los 1907s Hart era un miembro de la Intercommunal Survival committee, un grupo de gente blanca que soportaba el Black Panther Party. Miembros de esa organización trabajaron con Cathy Archibald y Slim Coleman en la el Centro de Información del Vecindario en Lincoln Park. También ayudaron a Señor Jiménez hacer, publicar y financiar uno de los periódicos originales de los Young Lords, y trabajo cerca con Jiménez y los Young Lords hasta 1983 donde Helen Shiller fue elijada como Alderman y Harold Washington fue el primer Afroamericano alcalde de Chicago. Señor Hart junto con la administración de Alcalde Washington, como Asistente del Comisario. Durante este tiempo era responsable de administrar todos los programas de prestemos para la rehabilitación de la cuidad de Chicago. El también ayudo formular y lanchar la asociación de Chicago Housing, Low Housing Tax Credit, y el programa de calefacción de la cuidad de Chicago. Ahora es un agente de urbanización y también el principal Oficial de Financias en Affordable Property Management Specialists en Chicago. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Chicago (Ill.). Alcalde (1983-1987 : Washington) Discriminación en la vivienda--Illinois--Chicago Housing--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Hart_Jack Title A name given to the resource Jack Hart video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hart, Jack Description An account of the resource Jack Hart was a primary assistant to Walter “Slim” Coleman during the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign of 1975. He continues to live and work in Chicago’s 46th Ward, primarily in the Uptown Community. In the 1970s, Hart was a member of the Intercommunal Survival Committee, a white group that supported the Black Panther Party. He worked closely with the Young Lords. Mr. Hart joined Mayor Harold Washington’s Administration as Assistant Commissioner and was responsible for administering all of the City of Chicago’s rehabilitation loan programs. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Chicago (Ill.). Mayor (1983-1987 : Washington) Discrimination in housing--Illinois--Chicago Housing--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/72ebbba97c9749c8a3a038f29de89dcf.mp4 e967024c375b1a495df4ed4eb96fca73 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d0b55cba3fe8597a666cbb6202002d87.pdf 2107037f989728a32f81c88c97034517 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Robert Hartman (01:00:30) Interviewer: “Can you state your name, when you were born and the regiment you served with.” I served with Service Company and “E” Company of the 126th Infantry, 32nd Infantry Division, and the “Red Arrow” group. Interviewer: “Now, you’ve had an interview before and you went through your boot camp, so we’re going to jump ahead this time to when you left the United States. You were at the Cow Palace in California, can you tell me what happened there?” Well, the Cow Palace is what the name implies; it was where they had rodeos. It just had a dirt floor in the middle with cement seats around the sides and fold up chairs. We were there for a week or 10 days and it rained all the time we were in Frisco, the weather was miserable. 1:00 So I never had a good impression of San Francisco. We had to sleep in the seats and the lucky ones slept out on the floor in cots, but they gave us fold up cots and told us to stretch them across the seats and there was no way in the world, if you have ever been in a theater, you can stretch a folding cot across the seats and sleep, so we all slept sitting up with our coats and clothes on, that’s the way we stayed for the week or 10 days that we were there. 1:33. Interviewer: “Now, did you have any sense or idea where you would be going or what you would be doing?” We had no idea. We had no idea what country we were going to, we just knew we weren’t going to England like they planned. We knew we were headed some other place, 1 �but nobody had the faintest idea who we were going to fight, but we figured it would probably be the Japs seeing we weren’t going to be fighting the Germans. That’s about all we knew and that was just common sense to figure that out. 2:02 Interviewer: “Now, you were given orders to board the luxury liner the U.S.S. Lurline, can you tell us about that?” Well, the Lurline was a luxury liner that they hadn’t even completed converting to a troop-ship because they used the state rooms for the men and they were putting anywhere from 2 to 5 men in a state room and we were lucky because we got the ballroom up on the A deck where they had all of their dances and that and there was a hardwood floor and they had the big windows there and during the day they could roll those big windows down and we got this nice breeze. 2:43 The only thing was, myself and about 90% of the guys were seasick just about all the way across. Interviewer: “Was there anything you could take for that? What did you guys do to fight that?” Nothing. Ed Szudzk swears by lemon drops and the purser on the ship was going around selling jars of lemon drops and he said, “lemon drops will stop seasickness”, but what it did was made me sicker on the lemon drops, but Ed Szudzik swore by them and he said that they kept him healthy all the way across. Even my company commander, who told us that it is just a matter of mind over matter, for the first 2 or 3 days he was going around making fun of us and all of a sudden he’s just as sick as the rest of us, so we turned the tables on him that way. 3:40 Interviewer: “Now, when you crossed the equator was there a celebration?” 2 �Yes, we had what they called—one of the sailors was King Neptune and then you were a pollywog or, I’m trying to think what the other term was that—they shaved your head, a lot of them went around and grabbed a bunch of guys and shaved their heads and I thought it was so cool that I had mine shaved and I kept my head shaved for about 65 years after that. 4:13 I never did wear my hair long again. Interviewer: “So, were you initiated?” No, I wasn’t, they didn’t bother me, but they did some of the others, they pulled all kinds of pranks on them and I don’t remember what they all were, but they had us all up on deck going through this, but I was too seasick to even care what was going on. 4:35 Interviewer: “So you didn’t leave your room much? You just basically stayed in bed?” Not if I could help it, I lived on bread and coffee because they had fresh bread on board and they had coffee, but you went down into the mess hall and the food was all steam cooked like a pressure cooker and just the smell of it, I would leave the mess hall and grab a slice of bread and a cup of coffee and go back up on deck. 4:59 Interviewer: “How long did this trip take?” Well, roughly 30 days. I’ve heard every—if I go by my discharge papers it was 32 days, other guys got the same discharge papers, were on the same boat I was, they got on the same day, they got off the same day and some of them their discharge papers say 25 days. 5:24 It’s hard to tell, every time I read about it it’s a different time, so it’s anywhere from 25 to 32 days, but I have always said 30 days and in my mind that’s the way I figure it. Interviewer: “Did you have any idea where you were going?” 3 �We had no idea until we were almost to Australia and they told us we were going to land in Adelaide Australia. The reason we landed in Adelaide instead of Brisbane where we were supposed to, was because the battle of the Coral Sea was going on and the Americans were battling the Japanese for the Battle of the Coral Seas and we had to detour out around it to avoid getting caught in there with our troop ships because there were probably 5 troop ships in this convoy along with a bunch of other small cruisers that were there to convoy us over. 6:22 Interviewer: “You said you landed in Port Adelaide?” Yes, Port Adelaide was called the city of churches and it was a nice little town, but they didn’t expect us, but they treated us real well there. Interviewer: “What was your first impression when you landed? What did it smell like? What did it look like?” Well, it was just warm there and we got off the boat and we’re dressed in woolen clothes. They issued us woolen clothes to go to England and they issued them in Massachusetts and when we got to Adelaide the temperature was 85° roughly and we’re standing there with big overcoats on and woolen coats and all dressed up like we were going to the North Pole. 7:00 Interviewer: “Was there a crowd out there, people out?” No, just us, I don’t remember, but there probably were some other people around, but there wasn’t any welcoming committee or anything. We were just so happy to get back on land that we didn’t care; we just wanted to see dry land. Interviewer: “Where did you go from there?” 4 �We stayed at Sandy Creek for a couple of months and then we started up to Brisbane, Australia and we were loaded on trains and every state, there are 5 states in Australia, and every one has a different gauge track, so you go so far and you have to unload the train and load it onto the next train and go from there. We had all of our trucks and supplies and troops and it took us 4 or 5 days just to go from one end of Australia to the other. 7:58 Australia, of course, is as big as the United States. Interviewer: “Now, you said you stayed in Sandy Creek for a couple of months, what was that?” Yes, Sandy Creek was just the name of a place, I guess there was a town there or something, but it was just called Sandy Creek and where they got the—it was all sand I know that and it was a nice little place. 8:25 We were there in the summertime, our summer, but their winter and it got cold there and we didn’t have any stoves, but the coldest it got was if you put a bucket of water out at night, it would have a skim of ice on it in the morning, but by noon it was up to 75 or 80 again. We didn’t suffer or anything, we had nice warm bedding and that to sleep in and they did issue us summer clothing so we kept anything we wanted to of the warm stuff, so it wasn’t too bad. 9:03 The food was good there and there was a little German village right near us where they made wine, German wine from the people from Germany and a lot of the guys were buying wine by the barrel and drinking their wine, but I’m not much of a wine drinker, so I didn’t do much of that. It was nice there and we could go down to Adelaide once a month or so. 9:34 You took a train down there and coming back on the train, because they had added on so many cars to accommodate the soldiers that the train couldn’t make the hill coming back up. It wasn’t a big hill, it was just a long grade and we would have to get out and 5 �walk alongside the train so the train made the top of the hill and then we could get back on and ride again. 9:59 We would have maybe 4 or 5 thousand GI’s on the same train and they only had one little bitty engine and all the other good engines, of course, were hauling supplies for the war, but the Aussies were good people. 10:21 They are one of the countries that still thinks the United States is a pretty good country. Interviewer: “So, you guys got along, the soldiers and civilians?” We got along, especially with the soldiers when we met them in New Guinea. Of course, when we got there the soldiers, most of the soldiers of the Australian army were over in Africa fighting. They were fighting the Germans over there and they were called “The Rats of Tobruk” and they went through one heck of a thing over there and they brought them back and they rearmed them and sent them back up to New Guinea with us. 10:57 They had 2 separate armies in Australia, which differs from ours. When you sign up over there, you sign up for either part of the expeditionary forces or you can sign up for the militia. The militia never had to leave Australia, they were there for the duration and if you joined the AEL they could send you overseas, which they did. 11:28 There was quite a bit of antagonism between the 2 armies, the militia were looked down on, the others who had gone over to Africa and fought the Germans and then came back and had to rearm again and go right back up to New Guinea and help us, but they were terrific fighters, they were darn good men. 11:50 Interviewer: “What kind of interactions did you guys have when you were at Sandy Creek? Did they tell you about the fighting you might run into? Did they say anything about Japanese tactics?” 6 �No, nothing. We had no idea what we were going into, I don’t think anybody knew and we didn’t train for it, we just went out in the field. They didn’t do any special training for the jungle. I don’t even think they knew what the jungle was going to be like. 12:15 See, our company command was the one that did the training, it wasn’t—they didn’t bring in any Aussies from--there were a few Aussies up in New Guinea at that time already, trying to hold back the Japanese, but they couldn’t do it, there weren’t enough of them, so they needed our help in a hurry, so as soon as they could they flew “E” Company from Brisbane up into Port Moresby, which happened to be the first time in United States history that an American force had ever been flown into combat and that’s another first for the “Red Arrow”. 12:50 Interviewer: “Before we get to New Guinea, what kind of training exactly did they have? They didn’t quite prepare you for jungle warfare, but what were they preparing you for?” Just regular combat training like practicing with bayonets, which we never use, most of the guys threw their bayonets away, we marched back and forth and we listened to speeches and all that stuff, but they never really got into any real basic training. 13:21 One of the things we were trying to do was bring our group together because when we got on the Lurline we had a bunch of recruits that came out of California and they hadn’t even finished their basic training and they’re finishing up their basic training over in Australia. 13:42 So then we went up to Brisbane and from there we went on into New Guinea. Interviewer: “How long were you in Brisbane?” A month or two. 7 �Interviewer: “Just continued the same basic training?” Same thing, same thing all over again. Interviewer: “Did you have contact with the Aussies there also?” No, the officers might have had, or the high command might have had, the Generals or something, but as far as any of the men or—we never saw an Aussie soldier except the militia and they were no help because they never got into combat. 14:16 So, we never talked to anybody until we got up into combat and started talking to the Aussie troops that were up there and they told us what was going on and they gave us a lot of good information, but until then we were just as green as anybody coming off the boat. Interviewer: You left for New Guinea from Brisbane? Yes. Interviewer: “How did you get there? You said one company flew over, how did you get there?” We went by boat. Interviewer: “Can you tell me about that?” Well, they had liberty ships at that time, they were putting ships together that were welded instead of bolted and it was an innovation by a man—I’m trying to think of his name, it was Kaiser from the United States here and he started making the ships here in the United States and turning out 1 or 2 a day and they were just little tramp steamers all welded together and just solid steel all the way and there was nothing to them except the hold and the motor and that was it. 15:22 They put us down in this hold and just a steel plate between us and the ocean and you could see that steel would sweat from the cold water and it was warm on the inside and cold on the outside and the boat creaked and 8 �moaned all the way across there and it took us a couple of days to go from Brisbane up to Queensland and to Port Moresby. 15:51 Interviewer: “Where did you land in Port Moresby?” Well, Port Moresby was the port where we landed and there was nothing there except a couple metal sheds and one of them was a hotel, just a 2 story thing made out of rusted corrugated iron and I think it had a bar, we never got into the town really to look it over. They marched us right through the town and out on the—about 5 miles out of town and we stopped and everyone started walking over the Owen Stanley Mountains. Interviewer: “After you got off your ship and started walking farther inland where you guys were staying, did you have any contact with natives? Were there any Australians there? Did you see anybody? What did it look like?” Well, there wasn’t too much jungle around Port Moresby. 16:44 It was wide open and in fact they had an airstrip there and we were lucky enough, the first night there they sent us into this airstrip, right at the end of it and these Ausies, there were Americans there too on this airstrip and they were flying and trying to fight the Japanese in the air and at night the Japanese would come over and bomb this airstrip and they missed the airstrip and they were bombing us half of the time. 17:15 The first day there they told us that we better dig a foxhole and the ground was just as hard as a rock and we didn’t have pick axes so everybody just went out and dug a hole about 6 inches deep and said, “that’s enough” and that night they bombed us and they killed a couple of guys in the regiment and the next day everybody was out and the holes went down in a hurry that day. 17:42 We had big ones by nightfall, but just a few days later we started moving up. Interviewer: “How far out of Port Moresby were you camped?” 9 �Just 5 miles. Interviewer: “What was the name of the camp?” It had no name; we just called it the 5-mile airstrip. There must have been a name for it, but I don’t remember any. Interviewer: “How many days were you there?” Well, maybe 2 or 3 weeks. Everybody got dysentery that was there. The flies were so think, I have never seen flies that thick in all my life, it must have been the breeding season or something because you couldn’t eat your food, you had to keep waving the flies off your food all the way up to your mouth and everybody got dysentery and all of the sudden a breeze came up a few days later and all these flies were gone, just like they had never been there. 18:40 The wind just took them out into the ocean because they all disappeared and we never did know what happened. Interviewer: “For those of us who aren’t familiar with the symptoms of dysentery, can you explain that a little?” Well, it’s diarrhea and everybody knows what diarrhea is. Interviewer: “Did you have a cold? Did you have a fever?” No, no, nothing with it, just diarrhea and it was so bad that the men were passing blood some of them and they had nothing in those days to give them. The medics, they had nothing and they didn’t know what to do because they had never run into this before and they had run into cases of diarrhea and that in the states I suppose, where somebody would get sick and have diarrhea, but not where the whole regiment came down with diarrhea. When you got 2 or 3 thousand men with diarrhea there is nothing, the medics couldn’t—there was no store to go and get anything from. 19:38 They couldn’t get it 10 �from Australia because Australia didn’t have anything to help with it either and they would have to fly that if they could have got a plane to do it. Interviewer: “During that 3 weeks, were you waiting? Were you training? Were the Australians giving you any tips on how to fight the Japanese at that time?” No, there weren’t any Aussies there. Interviewer: “Did you have any information yet?” Nope, but the officers must have had some because they started moving up, the 2nd battalion started across the Owen Stanleys, the 3rd battalion and the 1st battalion and the artillery battalion stayed behind, but we were supposed to fly up later, which we did, but the 2nd battalion, plus the anti-tank, cannon company and part of the medics and part of the Signal Corps, all went over the Owen Stanley Mountains, which was a story in itself. 20:31 I wasn’t there, I didn’t go over—I didn’t walk over the Owen Stanley. Interviewer: “You flew in?” I flew in. After they came down the other side, they took the airstrip there and they enlarged it and they flew in these C47’s, which is just a 2 motor plane, but it was a big cargo plane at that time and it was the backbone of the army for years. 20:59 Interviewer: “So, when you flew in, can you explain that? Did you have to go back to Port Moresby to the airstrip or were you able to fly out from the 5 mile strip?” No, we were right at the end of the strip like 100 yards from the end of the strip and we just walked over the strip and got on the planes. Interviewer: “How long did it take you to get there?” Maybe 45 minutes. 21:23 Interviewer: “And it took them 45 days to get over the mountains?” 11 �Oh yes. It was a scary situation flying over because they flew between the mountains and we could look out the windows, there wasn’t any seating and we just sat on the floor because there wasn’t anyplace to sit in this plane, it was a cargo plane. They put us in there and we were just tight together, but we could look out the windows, a little bit of windows and you could se the mountain on one side and you looked out across the plane and you could see the mountain on the other side and it looked like the plane tips were almost touching, but they were probably a half a mile away, but to us it looked like they were going to crash any minute. These pilots deserve a lot of credit; we always said that, for flying the “hump” they called it. Interviewer: “Where did you land?” Dubador airstrip. Interviewer: “Was there any firing going on when you landed?” No, it had all been taken. It had been taken pretty mildly at first then once they got past that is when they really started running into trouble. 22:36 Interviewer: “When you landed did you stay there for a while?” No, we started right up for the front and we took one day of marching and we got up there and right away they put us right on the line and said, “well, this is it”. Interviewer: “while you were marching, what equipment did you have? What kind of gear did you have?” We had our full packs and we didn’t have to throw anything away, but it wasn’t long after that we found out that half of the stuff we didn’t need. We threw away our gas masks and blanket we started out with we threw away and rain gear we threw that away, we threw away—every day that you’re up there, every day that we were in combat we 12 �threw away more and more stuff. I would say that within a couple of weeks, January, I can’t remember, but in 2 or 3 weeks we were down to the bare necessities. Like myself, I just carried my rifle, my ammunition, my canteen, a first aid kit and a little pouch with some food in it. 23:54 Interviewer: “How were you getting food at this time?” They would bring it up by what we called them, the “Fuzzy Wuzzies”, the natives would bring it up and the Ausies who had worked with these natives, these were apparently missionary types that worked with these natives and the natives would bring the food up and the one thing that we lived on and I was lucky because we had these little cans, I would say a 4 inch can, one of them had beans and one of them had hash and one had stew and the 4th can had a little hardtack and a little soluble coffee and a couple of pieces of sugar and a couple of hard pieces of candy and that was it. And that was supposed to last us for 3 or 4 days and mainly what we wanted the most was just the coffee. We finally got them to bring us up some coffee in bagfuls and we would make our own coffee. Somebody would go back with a little Billy can and this was just an ordinary can with wire in it, and heat it over a fire, if you could get a fire going, and throw in a handful of coffee and drink it like that. We learned to drink it black and strong. 25:21 Interviewer: “From the airstrip, you said you began marching right away, where did you go and how long did it take?” Just one day, about 16 hours we marched straight and we got there and they bedded us down and the next day we started, I don’t remember exactly, they never told you too much because they didn’t know too much, they said, “ok here’s this line and there’s these 13 �guys over here and you guys gotta take this line here and hold it.” If we tell you to move up, you move up so that’s what we did. Interviewer: “What was the training like? You said down by Port Moresby there wasn’t too much of a jungle setting. Up there were you hitting dense jungle?” There was no training we just went into combat and that was our training, on the job training. 26:11 Interviewer: “The land, what was the land like?” Well, it was a jungle and a rain forest, a typical rain forest. When we were there, which happened to be during the monsoon and they get 300 inches of rain a year and most of it comes at this 3 months that we were there, October, November and December and part of January. Interviewer: “As you were marching in, was there a path for you to follow? What were you marching through?” Most of it was mud, but there was a path, probably an old—the natives had tracks allover New Guinea and you follow these tracks because the natives live there and it was a Buna village and it was where the natives had there little village and they had these little grass huts, they were made out of bamboo and they built them 4 or 5 feet off the ground and had little stepladders going up into them and they had a thatched roof on them and the natives would live in them a while and when they would get tired of them they move on. They just pick up their stuff, the women would carry it and they would walk ahead and somebody in this group always carried a little fire, a little bamboo with some moss in it and it had a little core of fire in there and when they would get to another place they would just dump some out and go on and start another fire. I don’t know what they did if 14 �they ever lost their fire because when we were around we would give them matches or anything they needed, in fact we were—the Americans were too good to them because we felt sorry for them and we would give them food and everything and the Aussies would tell us not to give them too much food because if we gave them enough food, they would just disappear for 2 or 3 days and they didn’t want to work. It was the natives way of doing things, they lived for the day not for the next week, they just lived for today. 28:18 They did, we called it the “betel nut smile” because they all had this—it’s an opiate of some type that they chewed on and their gums were all just bright red. It looked like they swallowed a cherry pit or something, we called it “the betel nut smile” because it was a betel nut they chewed, but it was an opiate of some type. I never did see it growing and I don’t think anybody tried it and nobody wanted to, but the natives probably needed it to keep going because the life expectancy was probably between 35 and 40 years old. 29:06 The girls would have babies at 12 or 13 because they matured early in the jungle there and by the time they were 25 they were down hill already. Interviewer: “Now, you were marching to Buna?” Well, we didn’t really march; we just followed one another through the jungle. Interviewer: “ Did you hear any sounds? Did you know you were getting closer to the front lines?” Well, almost from day one we could hear firing going on somewhere, it was just rifle fire mainly, machine guns, we could hear them, but the sound carried—sometimes it carried good and other times you couldn’t hear anything and you never knew which way it was coming from in the jungle. It was hard to know which direction was which. I would 15 �have gotten lost, but in my squad I had a guy that was pretty darn good at knowing which direction was north and south and I kept him close by me, so when they said to go over so and so, I would tell him, “we’re going to head south here for a ways” he would say, “ok’ and he would take off and meet me and he was usually right. 30:22 Everybody was getting lost at one time or other, there was nobody around to guide you unless you had a guide and half the time the guide couldn’t remember which trail he took because there are so many little trails that the natives had and the animals had theirs. We didn’t see many wild animals, but we did see the tracks of them. I heard there were lions and that, but I never heard of any, but I do know there was monkeys up around the tree tops and a lot of birds and a lot of little piglets like running around, but mostly those belonged to the natives. 31:07 Interviewer: “When you first got to Buna, did you go right into battle or was there a camp set up? What happened when you first arrived on the front lines?” No, we never had a camp set up, nobody ever had a camp set up and I don’t understand that myself. Everybody went in a different direction and everybody was fighting somebody and somebody knew where we were all the time, apparently somebody in the general headquarters knew. We had the maps that I showed you, but we had no idea and to this day I have talked to some of the guys and I would say that I didn’t know—they were talking about some of the guys were on the Sanananda Trail and some of them— like I was at the “bloody triangle”, that’s where I first got hit and I didn’t know how far that was from Buna Village, I don’t think I ever saw Buna Village. 31:55 We just called the whole area Buna like the whole area around here is Grand Rapids even though you never did get downtown to see Grand Rapids. I never saw the village, some of the guys 16 �did, but half the guys never saw Buna Village because all there was were just a few little native huts. There wasn’t any village; there wasn’t any staging area. Where the brass, the Generals stayed, I have no idea where they stayed. 32:29 I know we had Majors and Colonels with us, a Colonel from the regiment would be with the regiment and the Majors and the Captains and everything, but beyond that, I don’t know where the main headquarters was and I don’t think hardly anybody knew. We communicated by phone because we had radios, but they quit working after 2 days in the jungle because they weren’t made for the rain forest. 32:55 The instruments would get all wet and they would just fall apart and we would just throw them away, they weren’t any good, they were huge phones, they were probably 15 pounds apiece and if you tried to carry a cell phone that weighted 15 pounds apiece, you wouldn’t see many people using a cell phone. 33:15 Interviewer: “You said your first combat experience was at the “bloody triangle”?” Right, well, we fought some before that, but it was just piecemeal, at a distance, firing at vague shapes and stuff and we never really got into anything until we got to the “triangle” and that was on the 19th of December. 33:41 Interviewer: “Can you tell me about that?” Well, there was a pillbox up there and the Japs had been holding it and 2 or 3 outfits had tried to take it and because we were fresh troops they thought we could go in there and do it, but they just told me, “Sergeant, take your men and there’s a pillbox right up there (they pointed) and go out there and see if you can take it” so, I said’ “yes sir” and I said to my men, “let’s go” and we started, we got down and started crawling through the Kunai grass, which was probably 3 or 4 feet high, Kunai grass is just a sharp bladed grass 17 �and if you don’t watch it will cut you, it’s sharp on the edges and you have to be careful with it. 34:32 We had our long sleeves on and our jackets and we’re crawling along and all of a sudden, I’m in the lead, and I saw this place where the grass had been cut and I thought well, I’m going over here, it’s a lot better crawling so, I started crawling down around that and all of a sudden it dawned on me that this was a fire trail. It’s not cut for my benefit, it’s cut for somebody else’s benefit and it had to be the Japanese down at the end of it with a machine gun and when I thought of that I jumped for the side, from a prone position I leaped and they cut loose with their machine gun and I felt it hit my rifle and knock that out of my hand and I got hit in the arm and in the leg. 35:24 I got on the other side and I knew I was hit and I was scared to look because I didn’t want to know how bad it was, but finally I looked and it wasn’t that bad so, then I hollered at my men when I got over there,” for cripe sakes don’t jump across, don’t get in that fire trail”, so they stayed over there and after a while, I laid there a while, I jumped back across before they could start their machine gun again and I got to the other side again. 35:56 I went back and got a band-aid on it and came back and we crawled around there for a while trying to get close, but they kept us pinned down and we never did get up to the pillbox and finally they came and told us to come back, so we went back and I guess we tried again a couple of days later, we had reinforcements at that time and we still didn’t make it. 36:20 finally I don’t know how they did get that pillbox out of there, they took us out of there and put us over someplace else and like I say, they came along and said, “come on Sergeant get your men, were going over here”, of course I had a Captain, but I didn’t see him that often because he was busy with 2 or 3 other platoons out and he had to watch all 4 platoons of us. 18 �Interviewer: “Now go back a second, you said when you were in that precut fire lane it just dawned on you, you didn’t have any training or hadn’t talked to anybody who had warned you about these things, you just made sense out it, it was just common sense?” It made common sense because if I had laid there much longer they would have cut me up because that’s why they cut this fire lane and how they cut it I have no idea, but they had cut it real short, almost like my lawn, it was only about that high and I could crawl on it and I could see where I was going and in Kunai grass you can’t see 2 feet ahead of you, so I thought, “man, I can see where I’m going now” and all of a sudden I realized that this has been cut and it wasn’t cut for my benefit so it had to be for somebody’s and I was sure it wasn’t mine so, I knew right away that—those things flash through your mind in just an instant and it took me just long enough to gather myself and dive to the other side because I was closer to the other side than from where I started. 37:55 Interviewer: “How wide was the trail? Probably 10 feet wide. Interviewer: “You said you were hit in your arm and leg? Were those just flesh wounds, were they bad wounds?” No, they were just flesh wounds, they bled, but once I got back they put a band-aid on them and I never even got to see the medic or Captain, but somebody must have wrote it up. Interviewer: “Once you got back where?” I went back to the officers that sent me out there and I got a band- aid because I told them I got hit and they said, “that ain’t going to stop you” and I said, “no, but they got my rifle too.” They even clopped my bandolier of ammunition and I had to get a new bandolier, 19 �so they gave me another rifle and I went back up and joined my men. Of course I took a razzing from them because they didn’t know what a fire trail was either until I told them, but that’s the way we did things, you learn by experience and that’s what the whole thing was about, you either learn or die. 39:07 That’s what the whole Buna campaign was about. That’s why we had too many men die because you had to learn and if you didn’t learn you died. Interviewer: “How did the terrain affect your fighting?” The terrain? Interviewer: “The land.” Well, you couldn’t see anything. You could be 10 feet away from the Japanese line and you wouldn’t know they were there and at night one of the scary things was that at night we have to put up OP’s, listening post, and we put a man out there with a telephone 2 at a time and they had to sit out there all night long and report what was going on in case the Japs tried to come in during the night. 40:00 That was another thing that was scary and why we did it, I don’t know because I was out there myself a couple of times and you sit there just back to back with a buddy and that’s the way you sit there all night long. You sit there and your backs are touching each other, you’re leaning against each other and then you will say, “you sleep for a while and I will keep guard” and you take turns sleeping, but you don’t really sleep because if his back was to me and if I would shift a little bit, he would be wide awake and that’s the same thing I would be doing to him. 40:42 If he shifted a little bit, I would be wide awake and you would have your rifle up before you knew what was going on. 20 �Interviewer: “Now, I have heard the Japanese would tie themselves to the trees. Did you have any experience with this?” No, I never did. I never shot at a Japanese in a tree, I never go a chance to, I’ve shot at a lot of Japanese, but I never saw one in a tree. The one time I should have shot, I looked up in this tree and it looked like a guy was standing there on a limb and I said, “naw, that’s just my imagination” and I looked away and when I looked back there was an empty space there and I knew that I had missed him. 41:27 They did, at first they didn’t tie themselves to the trees and they would fall of course and that was it, but when they wound up tying themselves to the trees, they wouldn’t fall and then you didn’t know it and so you would keep on firing and firing and firing and then other Japanese would see you firing and then they would fire at you. 41:50 It was their way of getting back at you for firing at them I guess. They did a lot—we had one guy, kid, was killed because the Lieutenant told him to go up and see what he could see out of this tree and this kids name was Kent Frarry, he was from Grand Rapids here and Kent once told the Lieutenant, “Lieutenant, I don’t like climbing trees with the Japs” and the Lieutenant said, “don’t worry, I’ll be right here” and Kent climbed the tree and his own men shot him out of the tree, they thought he was a Jap. 42:31 That’s the way things went. Interviewer: “From Buna where did you go? How long were you in Buna?” Three months. Interviewer: “Just continuously going to the front lines and coming back?” No, we stayed on the front lines period. Interviewer: “How did you get supplies?” 21 �Somebody would bring them up or we would send somebody back to get just ammunition and food. We drank out of any stream that we found. Water was no problem of course, we would fill our canteens and we had little pills, I’m trying to think of the name of the pill, you put in your water to purify it. Interviewer: “Chlorine tablets?” Chlorine, that’s it, but after you drank enough out of your canteen you had to let the canteen dry out and you would have that much dirt in the bottom of your canteen because drinking out of holes and streams or whatever because we had no—they didn’t bring up any water to us, it didn’t make sense to bring up water to us when it rained every day. 43:42 It rained twice a day. You could figure on it raining about twice a day, especially about 4:00 in the afternoon, you could see the—we were between a mountain and the ocean and the land was real level or low there and the jungle was so just so thick that once you dug a foxhole and the tide was out, you could dig down a couple of feet and you could sit and when the tide came in, the water level would rise and pretty soon you’re sitting in 6 inches of water in your foxhole. 44:21 We complained, but it didn’t do us any good because nobody wanted to get up and run around and it wasn’t worth your life to get up and move, so you just stayed there and got wet. It would rain and it’s like when you get wet here in the rain, first the rain don’t feel bad, it’s 85 or 90 and the rain feels pretty good, but after you get soaked through and all of the sudden you get chilly even if it’s 90 degrees out and we would get there and the temperature wouldn’t drop very much, maybe down to 80 and your getting chilly and your clothes are all soaked and pretty soon they would dry and by the time they were dry the heat would come up and you would start sweating again and your clothes would get wet from the sweat. 45:17 Our clothes 22 �were damp almost all the time. Our shoes were damp and your shoes would rot right off of your feet, but it wasn’t just leather, it was the binding in the shoes that they sewed the soles on with that would just come apart and you would have the soles fall off of your shoes because they came right apart there. The bottoms would stay good and the sides would stay good, but it was the binding that they were sewn or glued with that just came apart. 45:52 Later on we did get jungle boots and that which wasn’t too bad, but that was over a year later before we got that stuff . Interviewer: “Were the men getting sick at this point?” A lot of them got sick. At first we lost a bunch of them due to malaria, dengue fever and there was another one that they got. They used to send them back with 100°, 101, they sent them back to Australia and the early guys were lucky, they got the fever right off the bat, malaria, they got sent back to Australia and they never did come back, but the rest of us, like myself, I didn’t catch malaria until way late and I’m up to 103° or better and I just went back to an aid station where they were bandaging people up and I told the aid man, cause he knew what I had, he sees me shaking and they give me 29 grains of quinine, laid me down on the ground and covered me up with a piece of canvas. 47:02 I stayed there for 24 hours and the fever broke and I went back to the line again. I wasn’t alone like that; we were getting to the point that we couldn’t afford to lose another man. We were outnumbered as it was by the Japanese to start with, but we whittled the odds down a lot, but we couldn’t afford to lose any more men. Interviewer: “So the men would stay on the front lines with malaria?” Oh yes, I stayed there—in fact I had reoccurring malaria, even after I got out of the service I would have reoccurring malaria. Every 30 days I would get sick. It would start 23 �with the chills and then you would have the fever and then the chills and then the fever and you would just lay in bed and suffer and I brought home—I was lucky, when I came home on furlough I went to my family doctor and he gave me a whole jar of quinine and so I was able to take that for quite a few years afterwards. 48:05 Interviewer: “How did it affect your fighting though if you’re in the middle of the jungle and you’re getting the chills and getting cold, how did this affect the battle?” I don’t know, you just hung on and you did what you could. You had to put it in the back of your mind I guess. I didn’t really have the chills up in the line, but I was weak because I was back there for 24 hours and you go back in the line and you’re as weak as a kitten and I don’t remember too much about it, but I know I went back in the line and I did my share and I had other guys come back and do the same thing. 48:50 Interviewer: “Did it make it difficult to hold your rifles, to do the marching and walking?” Ya, sure, oh yes, you’re just so darn tired, you just wanted to lay down and sleep and even if you could lay down you wouldn’t sleep anyway and everybody got the same stare and you could tell a man who had been in combat just by the look in his eyes. He just had that—his eyes were wide open and they just had sort of a glazed look to them and all I had to do was look at a guy and say, “That guy just came out of combat” you didn’t have to ask where he had been, you could just tell by looking at him. We got so we knew, it was sort of a brotherhood that we could look at each other and tell what this guy had been through. 49:38 Interviewer: “What happened after Buna?” 24 �Well, they took us back to Brisbane and then we started training there and they started training us to make beach landings. Interviewer: “Were you getting an introduction to jungle warfare training? You said that Australians at some point told you a little bit about it and were helpful.” Well that was when we were up there at Buna. Interviewer: “What did they tell you? What kind of advice did they give you?” Just everyday advice, keep your head down, I can’t remember all the things they taught you, it was just common sense things and nobody ever told me about the fire trail and I wish they had and I wouldn’t have crawled out there, but as it was, it was more of a good experience than a bad one. 50:34 Interviewer: “What kind of training did they give you in Brisbane then? Landings?” We had the ships, the small landing craft and we did beach landings and this is the way we were going to go on from there on. That was 6 months later and we landed at Saidor first and made a beach landing there and the navy was out there and the air corps and they bombed the beach and they raked it with these huge shells that the navy throws in there. It’s just like you see in a movie, all these little ships coming into the beach at once and the front end comes down and everybody rushes out and the only thing was that we didn’t run into too much opposition. 51:23 None of the beach landings that I made, I made 2 of them, there was no opposition, I won’t say none, but very little because the Japanese who had been there got out of there in a hurry when the navy started shelling and those that were left didn’t have much of a chance to put up much of a fight when we landed. 51:53 Interviewer: “Now when you landed and you got off the landing craft, where did you go? Did you go right into the jungle?” 25 �Oh ya, into the jungle, right—it was almost ridiculous, it looked like somebody had taken a bulldozer and went through there. Some of these big shells, they went through there and it was like taking a big bulldozer and clearing a path except that the stumps were this high where the shells had leveled them right off. They had gone through there and leveled them off pretty good. Like I say, the navy did quite a job for us and we were more worried over what we were going to get than what we got at that time. The first time we weren’t worried because we thought we were going into combat and we were going to go up there and show the Japs, we’re going to show them how to fight and they showed us, but we adapted, which is one thing that I think the American can do, they adapt and most of them are self reliant, they learn fast and it’s either learn or die and the Japanese are just more or less puppets. If you shot their officers they were at a standstill, if you shot their officers and they thought the same thing if they shot our officers, that we would come to a halt, but we didn’t because there was always somebody right there willing to take their place and I mean somebody capable of taking their place. 53:30 Maybe not as capable as the officer, but able to take over and stop things from going bad. Interviewer: “When you landed in Saidor, how long were you there? How long did this battle go on?” Maybe a month. Interviewer: “Did you go into the land quite a bit or was it on the outskirts?” No, we were just on the outskirts, up to the mountains and then we stopped there and we stayed there a while and we went back and we stayed there a while and then we got on the ships again and made another landing at Aitape. 26 �Interviewer: “Now as you were going into the jungle, you said you were at the base of the mountains, were there any rivers you had to cross? What was the land like?” There were always rivers. Interviewer: “How did you cross them? Did you just wade across?” Wade across or they put a rope across a lot of times and some of them were easy to cross and others were terrible because they would be in flood stage or something and if you didn’t hang onto this rope you fell in and we did lose a few men I suppose because you had your pack on and your rifle and everything and if you lost your footing and lost hold of the rope you could be swept out to sea before you knew what happened. 54:53 They tried to safeguard that, they had other guys down there below us trying to stop anybody that—I know they did that one time, they had some troops down there, back ups, if anyone lost their footing or lost their hold on the rope they would catch them farther down and drag them out. There was probably a stream every quarter mile or so because everything hit the mountains and started running down and it ran towards the ocean, but the jungle itself was just—I mean if it wasn’t for the tracks that the natives and the animals made you would have a hard time fighting. 55:40 As it was, I kept my bayonet and I sharpened that and used that and a lot of the guys were issued machetes which were 3 feet tall and had about 6 or 8 inches of blade and they were fine if you were just hacking your way through the jungle, but these things weighed 6 or 7 pounds and nobody wanted to carry anything on their back that weighed 6 or 7 pounds, when you’re going through the jungle you don’t need any extra weight on your back, so everybody dumped their machetes and they would either use little knives or a lot of them like myself and others, we sharpened our bayonets and used that if we had to hack our way through the 27 �jungle and so much of it was just green bamboo and green bamboo cuts fairly easy. 56:37 Interviewer: “Were you just being supplied by the troops that were coming in? Were there any airdrops? How did you get food?” They brought it up to us, especially from Aitape on, they had kitchens following us and at Aitape and Saidor we could go back and they actually brought the kitchens far enough up, but at Buna they couldn’t bring up any food, we had no hot food all the 3 months we were there we never had a hot meal, nobody. 57:05 I was lucky because I’m one of these people—I was brought up during the depression, but I like beans, I like stew and I like hash and those were the 3 main ingredients of the “C” rations that we had at Buna and to this day in my cupboard here, I’ve got cans of beans, I’ve got stew and I’ve got hash and I’ll make stew myself, I love stew and I love baked beans and some guys can’t stand that stuff, they can’t even stand to look at it. 57:46 Then we had bully beef, which was the secondary thing that came up, which is corned beef, I call it bully beef because a lot of it came from Australia and part of it is mutton and it’s greasy, but you eat it and you don’t like it, but when you get hungry you will eat most anything. That’s why everybody lost so much weight up there, I think the average weight loss they said, was like 40 pounds. I know I went out of there less than—(trouble with the microphone) I wasn’t much over that when I went in. I was just a little guy to start with. Interviewer: “How old were you when you went in?” How old? 21 58:30 Interviewer: “You said you were in Saidor for 1 month?” I believe it was about a month, yes. 28 �Interviewer: “What did you do from there?” We went to Aitape. Interviewer: “How did you get there?” By boat, we made another beach landing. Interviewer: “Was it the same? Did you have much opposition when you landed there?” No, the same thing as Aitape a little bit more there because they were—not on the beach landing, but later on they had some hard core Japanese there and I was moving up to the front and I got hit by a sniper and from then on I was out of it, so I didn’t see too much of Aitape after the first week or 2 I guess. 59:14 Interviewer: “How did you get hit by a sniper? What were you doing?” I was just walking up to the front and the sniper was behind our lines, so he got me and I always figured it had to be a sniper because I got hit and I don’t know how else I got hit. I was walking and the lines were 100 yards ahead of me yet and I’m walking along as carefree as anything and I’m going to the line and “boom” all of a sudden I get hit. The next thing I know I’m on a stretcher being carried out of there. 59:46 Interviewer: “Where were you hit?” In the stomach. Interviewer: “Did they get to you fast? Did they get you on a stretcher and brought you to where?” They took me to a base medic station there and operated on me and the only thing they did—the wound wasn’t too bad, the bullet—I was always curious—the bullet couldn’t go in too far because it hit my amo belt and went through—it forced it’s way between the 29 �cartridges of my amo belt and my regular belt and my clothing and into my stomach here and it only went in about an inch or 2 from what they tell me. 01:00:30 anyway, they dug it out and the next thing I know I was being shipped back to Australia and they patched me up and everything started going good and I got back to the states and I started having problems with, not gangrene, but anyway I had to go into the hospital every time and they put sulfa on it. They didn’t have penicillin in those days they used dry sulfa powder. 30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hartman, Robert (Interview transcript and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hartman, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Hartman joined the Michigan National Guard in 1938, and served in Company E, 126th Infantry Regiment during World War II. Originally trained and equipped to fight in Europe, his unit was sent to Australia and New Guinea in 1942, and fought at Buna, Saidor and Aitape. He was wounded at Aitape and shipped home, and was discharged in June, 1945. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brockschmidt, Kelly (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-06 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HartmanB1 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/58f8a93d5fd03cf65b38ae2662e2c1cd.mp4 1b6201a66426978816e8ddc0a5c1bf37 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2f0330218d0ae3f596495232d21d39e.pdf 9e1132e0c9f89298cf15e751ea7256c6 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW Born: Chicago, Illinois in 1919 Resides: Battle Creek, Michigan Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, December 26, 2011 Interviewer: Bob, if we could start out with what is your name and where and when were you born? I’m Bob Hartman and I was born in Chicago, Illinois. Interviewer: What year were you born? 1919 Interviewer: Can you tell us what your early schooling was like? Well, I went to school in Muskegon through the kindergarten and stuff like that, and the Hall School here in Grand Rapids, and I wound up at South High School where I graduated from in 1937. Interviewer: How did you first hear about the Guards? My brother talked me into it. He was in the Guards, and he said it’s a good way to make a buck or two a night, so—things were tough back there, so—I’d been in a CCC camp for six months, so later on, in 1938, I joined the Guards with him. Interviewer: What is a CCC camp? Civilian Conservation Corps Interviewer: For those of us that don’t know what that is, what is that? Well, it’s a group and they take you up in the forest up here and you plant trees. 1:28 That was our main objective, planting trees. We got thirty dollars a month for going to 1 �camp, and they sent twenty-five of it home to our parents, so we lived on five dollars a month, and we enjoyed it. Interviewer: What was the appeal of the National Guard? Just being there with all the guys, talking and learning things. You start right from the beginning, you learn how to take a rifle apart and put it back together, and drill, and march in step, and obey commands. One of the bad parts of it was that we use to wear the old wrap leggings in those days, and they were from WWI. They were wide bandages that you wrapped around your legs all the way up to the knee, and then you tied them and tucked them, which is fine, but when you were in a parade, and you were scared they were going to come unwrapped. That was the worst part of it, when you’re marching down Monroe Avenue, and you’re so afraid that thing was going to come loose, and they did if you didn’t do it right. 2:38 Interviewer: How old were you when you joined the guards? Eighteen. Interviewer: Tell us a little bit more about you experience with the National Guards. This was seven days a week or was it four days? One weekend a month, and other times they would call us up and we would report, and go on maneuvers like down in Holland, which is thirty miles away, or to Muskegon, and we would interact with the troops from down there, and be gone for the week-end, and we enjoyed it because that meant extra money for every day you were gone. 3:21 Interviewer: Was there a sense of danger going on in Europe? Did you have any feeling there was a war coming on? 2 �Not that we thought much about, and being that age we didn’t think much about it, and we didn’t read the paper. We didn’t get the coverage, you know, like they do now. We had radios, of course, but most people read the paper. Interviewer: What was the training it’s self like? You mentioned the leggings from WWI, was this more of a training for WWI type tactics? Yes, they trained us to fight like they did in WWI, trench warfare, and that was the idea, if we ever got into combat we would fight in Europe like they did in WWI. Interviewer: When did things change for you in terms of the actual war starting in Europe? What was your reaction to that? 4:24 Well, when they started things in Germany they said we were going to go away, we had our choice. We could go away, and they were going to draft everybody for a year, and they told us if we wanted to go now and get our year in we could go for a year and come back and evade the draft this way, so most of us said, “we’ll go now”, and in fact, I planned on getting married, so I said to my wife to be, “I’ll go and put my year in now, and after I come back we can get married”, and she said, “ok”, so I went for the year, we thought, and it was five years later that we came back. 5:14 Interviewer: Let me ask you about—at this point were you formed into companies yet? Yes, we were all in companies. Interviewer: Could you tell us, before you were telling us about the individual companies and where they came from? That was wonderful, and I wonder if you could go through that again? 3 �Well, in the 126 we had three battalions and ABCD were the first battalion, EFGH was the second battalion, and the milk battalion was MILK. A Company was from Coldwater, B Company was from Adrian, C Company was from Kalamazoo, D Company was from Holland, E Company was from Big Rapids, G Company was Muskegon, F Company was Grand Haven, H Company was Ionia, and MILK Companies were from Grand Rapids, plus Service Company, the band, and the medics were all from Grand Rapids. 6:19 Interviewer: What Company were you with? I was with Service Company to start with. Interviewer: What was the Service Company? Well, they had the trucks, most of the trucks, and they moved troops around, and they also furnished all the clothing. They we like a small quartermaster outfit only in the regiment, and we supplied the ammunition and the food, clothing, and everything else that was needed. Interviewer: What did you do specifically? I drove a truck part of the time and part of the time I was Supply Sergeant. Interviewer: So, you had already achieved the rank of sergeant by this time? Oh yes, when I got married I was a sergeant; a year later, I was made sergeant. Interviewer: Well, this might sound like a stupid question, but what were your duties as a sergeant? At that time, I just handed out supplies from the supply tent and that was mainly clothing and ammunition, and rifles. We took care of all the rifles and all the armament. 7:19 The only armament we had in the Supply Company was rifles. Some companies had 4 �machine guns and mortars, but we didn’t have any, and we had side arms, a lot of us had side arms. Interviewer: Try to give us an idea of what daily life was like at this particular time. You got up in the morning, you went to breakfast, tell us a little bit about that. Well, if you were in a line company, you got up in the morning, stood in line for breakfast, and depending on how long you might be in line, anywhere from ten minutes, to forty-five minutes, depending on the amount of time it took you, and then after breakfast you got in line and you marched out in the field and you went through a lot of training. It was basically a round of fire, and fall down like they did in WWI. 8:17 Interviewer: Give us an idea of what the food was like at this particular place. In Louisiana? Interviewer: Yeah The food was pretty good, and it depended on your cooks. The meat they served was good meat and it depended on what the cooks did with it, and we had men that went to baker’s school and could bake bread, and pastries, cake and doenuts. If you had good bakers and good cooks, you got good food. Ours would vary depending on the mess sergeant and the cooks. We would go from poor to good, but most of the time it was fairly good, and we didn’t have very many complaints. Interviewer: Was there any kind of schooling going on besides the training? Was there any kind of training about where you were going? No, never a word, never a word, except for the training. 9:16 We went out on maneuvers, and that lasted a month or two, and we ranged over in Texas, Louisiana, and as far over as Alabama and back. It was truck movements and you had the red army and 5 �the blue army fighting each other. Out of this came a lot of good officers that went to Europe, like Patton was in the maneuvers, Bradley was in the maneuver, Eisenhower was part of the maneuvers, and I can’t think of all of them, but it helped these officers, plus we had a lot of officers from WWI. We had, our company commander at that time was Captain Henry D. McNaughton who was the principal at Ottawa High School here. Our Chaplain happened to be Reverend Dorr, who was the principal at South High School when I went there. 10:25 We had Colonel Howe, who was a teacher over at Union High School, and we had a lot of other men that were involved in the city of Grand Rapids that went with the Guards. Interviewer: Just so people have a better understanding of the guys that you were with, were some of these people you knew or at least you knew their families? No, I didn’t know anybody or any families. Well, I had a friend that I met his family, and I knew his family. His name was Clayton, Clayton Van Amberg when he was drafted. Our first draftees came in April, and we were there in October and our first bunch of draftees happened to come from the Grand Rapids area, and we were lucky there because a lot of guys met their friends. I was told that Clayton was going to be in the draft, so I went over and saw him, and I got him transferred to my company, so we became buddies. 11:25 Interviewer: When did things change for you in terms of the training and all that, now that you got the word that you’re going to go to war? Right, and that was December 7th of Pearl Harbor day and Clayton and I were up in Jackson, Mississippi to they use to come by and give us free ticket to go to different places, so we got some tickets to go up to, and another fried of ours had a car, and so the 6 �three of us went up to Jackson, Mississippi, which was a hundred miles away, and we saw, in Jackson, “Old Miss” play football. We came out of there and later we found out they had bombed Pearl Harbor, and for everybody to get back to camp as soon as they could. 12:18 Interviewer: What was your reaction? The same as everyone else, “oh, oh, we’re in for it now”, so we headed back to camp, and they just scattered us around. A lot of troops were put guarding various bridges and water supplies and things like that. We stayed there for a few months and then they shipped us up to Fort Devens, Massachusetts. Interviewer: What happened at Fort Devens, Massachusetts? Well, we were there for about a month and then they turned around and put us all on a train and sent us back to Frisco. This was a fiasco because we landed in Frisco and they had no place to bunk us, so they had the Cow Palace, which was an arena where they have rodeos. It’s all dirt floor and seats all around, and it’s all cement. 13:24 They said, “you’re going to stay here for a while”, so the troops that were lucky got set down on the floor, some were in the aisles around there where the refreshment stands use to be, and our company was told we were taking the seats. They gave us folding cots and said, “spread them across these seats”. Now if you’ve ever been in a place where you sat down in these folding seats and tried to put an army cot across them, it’s impossible, so we tried it and it was just ridiculous because they stick up and there was no place for the legs, so we would up sleeping sitting up in the seats for the ten days we were there. Interviewer: Give us an idea of the number of people that were at this Cow Palace. Probably five thousand, that was our regimental strength, roughly. 14:17 7 �Interviewer: So this is a lot of people in a Cow Palace basically? Right, and some were in the dog track, which was next door, and they only housed about three or four hundred people. I don’t know what the dog track was, just a building where they raced dogs, I guess. Interviewer: What was the “scuttlebutt” going around during this time? You were anticipating getting into war, but what were you guys talking about? There was not much that we could talk about, we were just waiting our time and wondering when we were going to go. We knew we weren’t going over to England like they planned and we had never heard of Australia, much less New Guinea. Then they took us over to Angel Island, which is an embarkation point, and we were loaded on the Lurline there. 15:18 Interviewer: What were you told before you got onto the Lurline? Were you told where you were going? No, we had no idea, they told us part of the time over there, and I think it was quite a ways out before we ever found out we were going to Australia. Interviewer: So lets talk about getting on this Lurline. Describe what this Lurline was. Well, the Lurline was a luxury liner like they have today; only it was not as high class. The cabins were small, and they had two bunks in them, and they had a small bathroom and a sink, and that was about it. I was lucky, my company, we were put up in the ballroom, and they were making the ballroom into a first aid room to bring back wounded, so they had double bunks, which were nice hospital type bunks that were stacked two high. We had huge windows which you could look out during the day, and 8 �the floor was magnificent, it was a dance floor that we were setting on, and it was nice during the day, but at night they had the windows all painted and you had to pull it up, and you couldn’t see anything out. 16:32 the only thing is, most of us were seasick. I got on board and by the time we had gone under the Golden Gate Bridge, I was seasick. I was seasick almost all the trip over, and the only thing I could keep down was bread and coffee. They steamed the food in this place, and just the smell of steamed food made me sick, but I wasn’t alone, and my CO said, it’s just in your mind, and you guys just think you’re seasick, but two days later he was leaning over the rail just like the rest of us, so we had no problem there. 17:16 Interviewer: There was an understanding that a buddy of yours decided that he thought he had a cure for it and it was called “lemon drops”? Oh yes, that was Ed Szudzick thought lemon drops—and the Purser, I think, was making money off of selling lemon drops because they were a good deal, and they would sell you a jar of lemon drops for a buck and a half, and I put down four or five of them and just got sick on lemon drops, and I’m heaving up lemon drops instead of everything else, but Ed swore by them, and they helped him, so there must be something in the lemon drops. They had no Dramamine, they had no Dramamine in those days, in fact, we had very little supplies like they have now, and so we were not too lucky there. Interviewer: When you crossed the Equator, and you had not crossed it before, there’s a ceremony that goes on, an infamous ceremony, and I wonder if you can tell us about the King Neptune ceremony? 18:16 They shave your head and you’re a Pollywog until you get your head shaved, and all this, and then you became a, what is it, I forget the term now, but it’s quite a ceremony 9 �and one of the sailors dresses up like Father Neptune, and he has a spear and a thing and they go around and they drag people out of the crowd and they shave their heads, and I didn’t get my head shaved then, but I liked it so well that I had my head shaved and I kept it shaved ever sense. Interviewer: So, the trip over is quite difficult because of the seasickness and all. Where did you land finally? We landed in Adelaide, and it was thirty one or thirty two days for this trip because we had to detour out around, way out around, and don’t ask me how, but we detoured way out around and came in at Adelaide, which is at the other end of Australia, because the battle of the Coral Sea was going on with the Navy. 19:24 Thank God we had a Navy out there to stop them because we’d have probably been torpedoed. Then you zigzagged every day. They had two or three ships carrying troops. The 126 was on one troop ship I know, the 127 was on another, and the 128 was on the other one, so there were three ships all from the Matson Line carrying troops and later on they took these same ships and practically dismantled them and put on these old, these standby things where you bunk five or six deep, one on top of the other, but we were lucky there. Coming back the troops slept like that, but I came back on a hospital ship. Interviewer: We’ll get into that later. When you arrived in Australia did you have any interaction with the Australians? Not too much, we landed and we were dressed up in our full wool uniforms, we had these old army coats that hung down to your ankles, we had army wools on, we had winter underwear even, that they issued us in Massachusetts because we planned on going over to England. 20:38 It was going to be cold over there and we got to Adelaide and it was 10 �like eighty-five or ninety degrees in Adelaide because you’re close to the equator. It took us a few days before we could get the regular type of uniforms. We liked the Aussies, the men, the Aussies, were real good fighters and they were good friends to us. Interviewer: Is this the group that came from Tobruk? Yes, they called them “the rats of Tobruk”, and they fought in Africa. For a couple of years they had been fighting the Germans, and they stopped Rommel, and they were practically wiped out. They came back to Australia and reorganized, and then they were sent up to New Guinea. 21:29 They were up to New Guinea ahead of us. We were not the first troops in New Guinea, the Aussies were there and they went over the Owen Stanleys ahead of us, and they also helped—we used them as guides over the Owen Stanley. Interviewer: Now did you go through any kind of training or maneuvers at this time? Not very much—we trained a little bit, but not too much because I don’t think they knew what to train for. They had no idea—they would go out in the morning and train, but the training was minimal. Interviewer: The interesting point here is, the actual training you had was WWI trench style warfare and here you are about to embark in the jungles. Right, and then when we moved from Adelaide, we went by train up to Brisbane, which is on the other side of Australia, and they had—the trouble there is they have different gauges of trains, so you have to unload everything. 22:34 You go so far—they have five states in Australia, and you go to one state and you have to unload because the tracks were a different gauge. You would have to take everything off and go around and carry 11 �it, put it on another train, go so far, and we had three stops like that going to Brisbane. Now I understand it’s all one gauge they had the same problem here, back in the 1800’s. Interviewer: So, in Brisbane then—I have a note here about the uniforms and the camouflage. What kind of camouflage did you have or what did you do? Well, we had no camouflage, just old green fatigues they didn’t want us to wear dress khakis, of course, so we wore our green fatigues, and somebody came up with the fright idea, this came down from headquarters, they brought down some paint. 23:34 What kind of paint it was, I don’t know, but they made us stand in line with our fatigues on and they took brushes and they would dip them into the red, and they would splash some here, and they would splash it around, green, blue, yellow, just enough to make us camouflage. The only thing is that is you get paint on cloth it just stiffens, and then later on when you sweat, the paint goes through and winds up on your skin and itches. It drives you crazy. There were one or two companies that did that, and my company was one of the ones that had to go through this painting thing. We finally dumped all these old things and went back to wearing our old green fatigues in the jungle. 24:25 Interviewer: So you’re now in Australia, you still don’t know where you’re going, when was the turning point? When did you start to get into battle? When they took us up to Port Moresby. We landed at Port Moresby, which is just a couple of shacks, and one of them was a hotel, and a bar, the hotel had a bar in it, and the other was a small grocery store. I think there were three buildings there, and now they’ve got motels ten stories high and everything else. Interviewer: Well, lets get an idea of the numbers here. This is still the entire regiment arriving here, five thousand of us? 12 �Yes, it was the entire division, but the 127 and the 128 came up behind us, the spearhead of the spearhead. They picked the 32nd—let’s see—there were three outfits that were picked to go. 25:23 The 32nd, the 41st, and the 37th, three divisions, and they made the 32nd the spearhead of the three, and then they came along and said, “ we’ll pick the 126 to be the spearhead of the division”, and then they came along and they said, “we’ll pick the 2nd Battalion to be the spearhead of the battalion”, and then they came along and said, “we’ll pick E Company to be the spearhead of the battalion”, and it wound up like that, so we were the spearhead of the spearhead, of the spearhead. Interviewer: We had talked before about your being a sergeant and involved with trucks. What was your rank at this point and what was your responsibility? Platoon sergeant, which was a staff sergeant in those days, and then they elevated it to tech sergeant. Staff sergeant had one stripe underneath, and a platoon sergeant had two. 26:18 Interviewer: So, you have a lieutenant above you? Yes Interviewer: A captain above that? Half of the time Interviewer: Let’s get back to you then, what were your specific responsibilities? To make sure my platoon did everything right, and I looked after them like you would anybody that you’re in charge of. You are in command of the platoon and the lieutenant gives you the orders. I had buck sergeants underneath me and they each had a squad and I had four squads when we were full strength. We would up with—my platoon, at one time, was a total of twenty men, and three of them were sergeants, you know. My buddy 13 �that was killed was a sergeant at the time, and he was a squad leader, but we had no squads really, we were just fighting men. 27:17 Interviewer: We’ll get to that as well, I’m trying to get an understanding of what the whole structure was before you actually went into battle. So, you arrived at this small little island [town] with a couple of shacks and that. I’m just trying to get a vision in my own mind of five thousand plus men arriving at this place. How did you actually get to the beach? It was the beach. Interviewer: Right, but how did you actually get there? Oh, E Company flew, and they were the first company. They would fly into combat, and of any company during WWII, they never heard of it, but they needed somebody in a hurry, so they flew us up to Port Moresby, and then we moved over to, we called it Kalamazoo because we couldn’t pronounce the name. That was our base camp going over the Owen Stanley, was Kalamazoo. 28:18 At that time the tune that was popular was Kalamazoo, “I Got a Gal in Kalamazoo”, and that’s why they picked it. Another reason we picked it was—see we picked all code names for passwords with an L in them because the Japanese could not pronounce L’s. I don’t think it did us any good, but we used the word “Roosevelt” more than we did any other word for a password. Interviewer: Now that you’ve arrived with this whole group of people on this beach, where did you go? We went five miles—we were just—there was an airport there that the Aussies had, and then of course the Americans took it over, and it was called “a five mile strip”, and from 14 �there we had a base down at the end of it, and we started walking over the Owen Stanley Mountains. 29:17 Interviewer: So, you’re literally getting off an airplane and starting a march. Yes, that’s about it Interviewer: So, tell us about the walk across the Owen Stanley. Well, it was a nightmare, and it’s like climbing up a steep mountain. It was just a trail that was probably made by the natives for years, for the thousands of years that the natives were there. They had one place there at Kalamazoo; they had a mission there, a small mission and a couple Aussie missionaries, and they started us out. We had native guides and a couple Aussies leading us, but you clawed your way up this thing and you would slide back down. Three steps forward, two stops back, and it took us thirty some days just to travel this distance. 30:22 Interviewer: Let’s give an idea to people who have never been there. First of all, when you started the trip was it in the morning, the afternoon, the night? When did you actually start? About noon when we first started going because we landed and then we started right away. Interviewer: What was the weather like? Well, when we first started it wasn’t too bad; it was rainy because we were on that side of the cliff, but the higher up you got it rained all the time. You couldn’t even light a fire to warm your food, so you ate it cold. We ran out of food—they used to drop C rations, and they would drop them out of the sides of these planes, but they would crash and break. Then they tried parachutes, and we lost a colonel who was on a plane like that because 15 �the parachute got wrapped around the tail fin, so then they came and asked if anybody knew how to pack a parachute, and it turned out that we had—in our company we had a fellow named Doc Slaughter, and his father and him use to have the balloon ascensions out at Reeds Lake here in the summer when I was a kid. 31:37 Doc was probably in his thirties at this time, but he knew how to—his dad use to take this balloon and these hot air balloons would go up and his dad would parachute out in the water or on the land. So, doc was promoted to sergeant and all he did the rest of the time was pack parachutes for the air corps, and they dropped them out of the parachutes, which was a lot better. Interviewer: What was the terrain like? Oh, jungle types all the way up and down, and you just grabbed a tree and pulled yourself up, and just kept on going. You slung your rifle across back and you kept your cartridge, but you threw away everything you didn’t need. 32:22 Interviewer: Let’s get into that—you’re fully packed when you actually get off the airplane, so give us an idea of what started to happen as you go through the jungle with a full pack. The first thing to go was our gas masks because they were useless, and the next things to go were your blankets. We had what they called a shelter half, and maybe some of the guys held on to them, but I threw mine away because I was wet all day long and you couldn’t sleep hardly at night anyway, so we threw away our shelter half’s, we threw away our tent stakes, we threw away everything but our ammunition and our rifles. We even threw away—they use to give us big Machetes, and those were cumbersome, so I threw mine away and kept my bayonet, and I sharpened that in case I wanted to cut my way through and cut something, I could use my bayonet, and that’s all I used my bayonet 16 �for. I don’t think I ever put it on my rifle like we were taught back in the states. Put it on your rifle and charge forward with the bayonet. 33:32 We had to go through bayonet drills, stabbing and thing like that, we didn’t use them for that. Interviewer: We’re still looking at thousands of men going through this. Try to give us an idea of—can you see the people around you? You could see the guys ahead of you and behind you, and that’s about it, that’s about all. It wasn’t thousands, it was just one battalion—the rest of them flew up. When we got over there we took the airstrip, the old airstrip that they had over there, and fixed it so that they could land planes on it, and they started flying in the rest of the outfits. Interviewer: Were there any casualties or skirmishes or anything as you were--? No, the bad part was—I was lucky I didn’t get—some of the guys got malaria and they just suffered along with the rest of us going over. 34:34 But, there was no way to evacuate them; there was no way to evacuate anybody. If anybody had broken a leg, I don’t know what they would have done, but as far as I know, nobody was—we had a lot of small injuries where the guys would fall and hurt themselves, but as far as—climbing up was—once you got to the other side you kind of slid down on your rump. Interviewer: What happened after you got to the bottom? Well, then we got—some of the companies got into combat, but the Aussies had kind of cleared out most of it, and then a couple days later we were taken over to the Bloody Triangle. 35:22 There was a pillbox there, and we were supposed to take this pillbox. Interviewer: Before we get into that, let’s back up just a little bit. You said some of the companies got into battle. Did you actually hear the sounds of battle? 17 �Oh yes, we weren’t that far apart. We couldn’t see each other, but you could hear gunfire all the time practically. Interviewer: So, this might sound like a stupid question, but what did you hear? I know this was many, many years ago, but do you remember the first time you heard gunshots, and the sounds of battle knowing you were literally about to get into battle? Probably about that time, and that’s when your stomach starts to knot up, and if anybody thinks they weren’t scared, they’re crazy. We were all scared, but the way I looked at it—I was scared just as well as anybody else, and most of us were, but most of us hid it. We acted like, “what the heck, this is nothing”, you know, and especially being in the position of platoon sergeant, I had to let my men know that I was their leader and I wasn’t scared. 36:30 If they only know how scared I was we’d of all ran, you know, you just hide it and you act as if this is an everyday thing, you know, and you cuss, and things go on as normal. Interviewer: So, as you’re approaching the battle—the thing that I think is really important for people to realize is this is dense jungle. Dense, you couldn’t see twenty or thirty feet ahead of you. There were times when you could see—there would be patches of Kunai Grass where you could see across them, but you never knew what was on the other side of that. See that was—what we found at the Triangle. There was a Kunai patch there and right at the other end of it was a pillbox and we’re trying to take it. 37:22 Interviewer: For people who don’t know, what’s Kunai Grass? 18 �It’s a grass that grows anywhere from two feet to twelve feet high, and it’s sharp as a razor. If you don’t watch yourself you can cut yourself and make you bleed. I mean, it can make you bleed, and sometimes if you went through there fast you come out of there with cuts all over your hands and face, and most of the time they show pictures of these men in the jungle without shirts and bare to the waist, and it’s just the opposite, we covered ourselves up for that simple reason that we kept the bugs and everything off of us, and it was as warm with a wet thing on as it was with nothing. We’d go through this Kunai Grass and we’d have scars all over our body from it. Interviewer: So, you’re now approaching this pillbox. Now, you were told to take the pillbox or did you just come upon it? 38:26 No, I was told to take it. “Sergeant, there’s a pillbox out there, go get it”, so I went out there with my men, and I’m leading them, and I come across—they pointed in the general direction, and I came across a path that was cut. It was cut way down low, and I said, “Why am I going through this tall grass? Now I can see where I’m going”, so I started crawling down this path that had been cut like it had been mowed, and all of a sudden it dawned on me that this is not a path, this is a precut path. It’s a fire lane, and at the other end of it is a machine gun trained on me. 39:26 The minute this thought hit me I just instinctively dove for the other side, and as I did they cut loose with their machine gun, and I got hit in the arm, but they clipped my bandolier and knocked that off. Luckily I had my rifle like that, and they hit the stock of the rifle, and that might have been dangerous. I got to the other side, and I knew I was hit. I’m laying on my arm, and all I could think of is, “How bad am I hit?” I knew I was hit, and it turned out it was just a minor flesh wound, and I’ve still got it right there. [points to his forearm] It’s scary, you 19 �lay there and you’re afraid to look. So, finally I lay there, and I hollered at my men, “don’t come out here, don’t come out here, it isn’t safe, for Christ's sake, don’t come out here”. So, finally I made a mad dash across, and I got across before they could fire again. Then we went up through the tall grass, but it got so bad we had to pull back, and we lost a couple men there. 40:26 Interviewer: From the gunfire? From the machine gun, so we pulled back. Interviewer: What happens to the guys that get shot in a situation like that? We dragged them back, and then the burial unit took over. Interviewer: This group that you were leading, approximately how many men? Started out with about thirty Interviewer: At the pillbox there were thirty guys? Yeah, I had no lieutenant at that time either. Interviewer: Why not? Well, they put him somewhere else. I mean, they were so short on officers, the officers— when we first got up there the officers use to wear their badges and insignias, there second lieutenant bars, and their captains and all that, and finally everybody smartened up, and they took these off and dressed like the regular men because the Japanese were told to pick off the officers first. 41:30 That’s what we tried to do, to get their officers first because when we got their officers they were disorganized, and they didn’t realize that in the American army, you might get an officer, but you have men qualified and we could think for ourselves. The Japanese were not allowed to think for themselves, and I think that made a big difference, plus out firepower was greater than theirs. We only had 20 �the M-1 rifle, which fired eight rounds at a time, one shot at a time, and they had—we trained with the old 03 where you pulled the bolt back and slammed it in, fired again, and pulled the bolt back, which was a fine rifle for target practice, but it was no good in combat because it was too slow. 42:23 Just before we got to Australia they issued us the M-1’s, which were—one clip held eight shots, and you could pull off eight shots without doing anything, and then the clip would fly out, and you would throw another one in, and you were all set. The M-1 never jammed either it was a good gun. Ed Szudzick, my friend, carried a Tommy gun and we wouldn’t carry one because they jammed. Ed said that one time his jammed when he needed it bad because—they were the old Tommy guns that the “G Men” use to carry, and that type of thing, that’s what we had, and they weren’t too good for jungle warfare. Interviewer: We’re not talking just hours, we’re talking days that this is going on, give us an idea of—it wasn’t constant battle every single moment, there were moments you could sit down to eat. What were you eating? 43:26 Three months it went on, and we ate C-Rations, which was, one can of beans, one can of stew, and another small can that had three or four hard cookies, plus a can of instant coffee. It wasn’t as good as the instant coffee today, and pieces of sugar, and a couple pieces of candy. We got to the point where we were living on one can of C-Rations a day, which was four ounces, but we couldn’t carry more, and we didn’t want to carry more. When you dive for the— when we were out on patrol, or something, and all of a sudden they cut loose, you want to hit the ground, and you don’t want anything between you and the ground. In fact, there were times when you didn’t even want to carry a pack 21 �of cigarettes because it kept you away from the ground. 44:22 It might sound silly, but not when you got bullets flying at you. Interviewer: So, there were several skirmishes throughout this period of time? Oh yes, we were in combat all the time. We would go back maybe a day—one guy would go back, and this is another thing we did—I did it a couple times myself, we’d pick one guy and take his helmet, and we’d go back and get some canned heat, it was hard to get, otherwise if we could build a fire with something we would, and we’d use his helmet for a cooking pot. The first thing you had to do was cook all the paint off the inside of the helmet, because you didn’t want to eat that. Then we would throw in a handful of rice and a can of beans and mix them up and four or five guys would share it. one time I went back and I was going to really do something good. 45:26 I took a can of beans, I got one guy to give a can of stew, and a can of hash from another, and two handfuls of rice. It was all over the place, but it was a mixture of all these things with rice, and we ate it. Anybody told me today that I would eat that I would tell them they were crazy, but when you’re hungry you eat what you get. Interviewer: Where did you get water? Oh, out of the streams, out of the rivers, out of anything. We had canteens, of course, and we would fill our canteen, and we had chlorine tablets we put in there about—if you got a chance, or got any time off, you would knock the mud out of the bottom of your canteen because you would probably get a half inch of mud in the bottom of the canteen. One time , and this wasn’t the only time, we were drinking this water, and come to find out there were some dead Japs in the stream up ahead of us, but this wasn’t isolated, this was common. 46:24 We drank any water we could, no water was carried in, we drank the 22 �water that was there, and most of the time it was pretty good. You got to hate the taste of the chlorine in it, but you weren’t going to take any chances. Interviewer: Now, what about change of clothes, socks, boots? You took them down to the local Laundromat? We stayed with the same clothes all the time, and we didn’t bathe, we didn’t shave, we didn’t—I didn’t shave for almost three months. Everybody grew a beard because they kept the mosquitoes and that off your face, and that helped with malaria. I didn’t get malaria until almost towards the end of the campaign. Interviewer: Let’s go into that, in addition to the danger of fighting the Japanese, and in addition to just getting through the jungle, infections, diseases, and all that, tell us about the effect of malaria and dysentery on your group. 47:33 Dysentery, you just put up with. You just had it, and with malaria, at first they were just sending them home with a 98, 99, or 100 fever, and then it got up to 102, and they were sending them back to Australia. Some of the guys we got our worst casualties from was malaria, and I got up to a fever of 103, and by that time they just took me to the first aid tent, it was a canopy, and laid me down, and gave me 25 grains of quinine. I took that and I was practically delirious from the quinine and the fever, and I was there for twentyfour hours and the fever broke, and I went back to the line. 48:27 We all did this, that were left, because they couldn’t afford to send us back. If they had sent everybody back we would have been over run and been annihilated. We were told, in fact General Harding, who was out first general, wanted to pull the 32nd Division out, and he told McArthur, these men have gone through too much to stay here. McArthur pulled Harding back off the line and sent up Robert L. Eichelberger, who was a three star 23 �general, and he told Eichelberger, and I found this out later because I was at the hearing. Eichelberger was told to either keep going or don’t come back, and Eichelberger had no choice, but we realized it later, anybody that had any sense realized it later, that if we’d have stopped fighting, and waited for reinforcements, that the Japs would have overcome us. 49:29 We just kept pushing, pushing, pushing, and that’s the only thing that saved us, because we were outnumbered about seven to one [the Allied forces at Buna actually outnumbered the Japanese], but like I say, our firepower was better than theirs. Interviewer: But, you didn’t know you were out powered seven to one. We knew we were out powered, we didn’t know what the number was. We just knew there were more Japs there than there was of us. Interviewer: What is it like to have malaria in battle? Oh, your ears ring, and your eyes water and you just keep going. It’s like having the flu or something, you just keep going, but it’s worse than the flu. I had reoccurring malaria after the war, and for every thirty days I would come down with malaria, and I had that for about five years, and it decreased every year until finally it went away. 50:22 Interviewer: Now, I’ve talked to some of your fellow Red Arrows who talk about the heaviness of the rifle when you’re sick like that, it’s so heavy. Oh yes, but it only weighted –was it seven pounds or something like that, I forget what it was now, and it seemed a lot heavier, but still you hung onto it, that was—that was your bread and butter, you didn’t get rid of your rifle, and that’s one thing we liked about the M-1, you didn’t have to clean them very often, you could drop them in the mud and pick them up, wipe them off, and they would still keep firing. I didn’t hear of a one that stopped, and even some of the marines used the M-1, and they swore by it too. 24 �Interviewer: In your opinion, how did you adapt to jungle fighting when your entire training has been trench WWI type warfare? It’s either you adapt or die, it was that simple. 51:34 You make up your mind you’re going to do it, so you do it. Interviewer: Did you see a lot of men around you getting killed? Not too many because you’re in your own little battle, and it’s that way though Vietnam and all those other wars. There might be a huge—for instance, Normandy, these men don’t see all these men down the beach dying, they see just this group that’s ten feet on either side. You lose your peripheral vision, you just focus on going ahead and doing what you please, you watch the guys on this side, and you watch the guys on that side. You don’t have time to look around and see what the other guys are doing. And that’s the way it was, but I saw a few men dying, too many. 52:24 Interviewer: In terms of this jungle warfare, you’ve got the guy on the right, you’ve got the guy on the left, and you can hardly see anything in front of you, what was the sound like? I’m picturing bullets whizzing through the leaves. I mean, what was the sound of the battle like? There was a lot of noise, and the Japanese rifle, they shot a 25 caliber, and it was faster than ours, it moved faster, which didn’t make any difference, but it cracked, it made a cracking sound almost like a firecracker, and it wasn’t a loud sound, but we could tell. We could tell when the machine guns were firing, just from hearing them, which machine gun was the Japanese, and which was our 50 caliber, and which was our 30 caliber. They had a little thing there they called the knee mortar, NEI was printed on this thing, and it was a little mortar about eighteen inches high with a little tube like that. 53:34 We 25 �overtook some Japanese that had these mortars and they had the shells in there, and somebody was looking at these and said it’s a knee mortar. On the base, it’s oval shaped on the base like that, and somebody thought a knee mortar you could put on your knee and fire, but I think somebody did try to fire it like that and broke their leg, but it was just the manufactures name was NEI. You could put them against a tree, is what it was, they put them against a tree and fire the mortar shells. They used--their hand grenades were not as good as ours, they were just as dangerous, but they had a wooden plug in their hand grenade, and they had a pin through it with a string around it. They would take and unwind the string and pull the pin out, and they had to turn the hand grenade over and hit it on something hard, and drive that pin on the end of that wooden plug into the explosive to set it off, and then they had about three seconds to get rid of it. 54:39 Where ours, we just pulled the pin and let the handle fly, and threw it, but we liked the Aussies' better than ours because the Aussies'—our grenades were five second grenades, and if you pulled the pin and threw it, sometimes the Japanese would pick it up and throw it back, so we used the Aussies', which was another three second grenade, and you pulled the pin on theirs and threw it, and it went off when it hit. With things like that you learned to count, but most of the time when you pull that pin you don’t want count. You don’t want to take time to say one thousand one, one thousand two, you’re afraid it will go off in your hand because some of them would premature. 55:26 The same with our mortar shells, our mortar shells had little packets that you dropped down in there and they ignited and shot the mortar fires up. Those things got damp in the jungle and half the time they would only go half as far as they were supposed to, which was the only heavy weapon we had in the jungle was the mortar. We had machineguns, 30 calibers, and 50 calibers, but 26 �no cannon or anything else like that, mostly just rifle. One time up there— I went up there one time we got a shipment in, where it came—I think it was supposed to be for the MP’s—they got in some crates of rifles, but they weren’t rifles, they were shotguns, and we thought, “this is the best weapon they ever came out with”, and the minute they found out they came and took them right away, and took them back because it was against the Geneva Conference. 56:25 Can you imagine what a shotgun would have done in a jungle compared—it would have been ten times better than a rifle. Interviewer: You were injured the first time with superficial wounds, which I assume they just patched you up and they had to heal by themselves, what was the next incident? It was when we made a beach landing at Aitape. First we made a landing at Saidor, and our beach landings were nothing like Normandy. The navy came in and shelled the beaches, and the planes came in and dropped bombs on the beaches and that, at points where the Japs had congregated. The Japs, they didn’t know any more than we did, they were waiting to be picked up by the Japanese navy, and the Japanese navy was not around to pick them up, and they weren’t going to. As far as the Japanese were concerned, these were all dead men on the—but the Japanese didn’t know they were dead until—they were left there and finally surrendered. 57:35 There were too many of them at Saidor, so when we landed there was some skirmishing and some fighting, and a few guys got killed, but mostly Japanese. We pushed them right back, and then a month or two later we landed at Aitape. I was behind the lines then, I was walking up, and all of a sudden I got hit, and I think it was a sniper, I’m not sure if it was a ricochet or what, but it went through my cartridge belt, and it’s lucky it didn’t set off any of the ammunition in 27 �there, went through my web belt, my cartridge belt, my regular belt, and my clothing, and lodged in my stomach, right in here. 58:23 They took me out on a stretcher and took me to the hospital, the base hospital there, and they operated on me. They took the bullet out, and apparently it hadn’t gone in too far, or something, and then they took me back to Australia, and from there I went back to the United States, and I was in the hospital for various times at various camps. I started at Brooks General in San Antonio, I was in the hospital up in Illinois, and I wound up spending about six months down here in Percy Jones, which is here in Battle Creek. Interviewer: Now, when you returned back to the sates, your family was informed that you were ok? Oh yeah Interviewer: So, there was no worry that you were dead or anything like that? No Interviewer: When did you first see your family again? When I got back—when they let me out of—they let me go home, I was able to go right back home, and I had to report right back to Brooks General in San Antonio. 59:30 Interviewer: What was the reaction of your family when you came home? I guess they were glad to see me, but we had no brass bands or anything like we have now. The only ones that met me at the depot were my mother and father, and my wife and her mother and father. It was that way with all of us, and we didn’t care, we were back and we didn’t care. It was two and a half years later. 28 �Interviewer: There are a couple more questions I wanted to ask you. What is the distinction of the Red Arrow compared to any other battle unit? What is the one big distinction? 0:10 We put in more combat time than almost any other outfit in combat, and we went through some of the toughest of the fighting without any experience at all. We were green troops, and I heard a commentator say one time on the radio that the troops are green and going over to Iraq, and what they need is experienced troops. That’s not true, you’re going to fight, just to save your own life, you’re going to learn and adapt. Steve Janicki and I both agree that you’re not fighting for your country, you’re fighting for yourself, is what it comes down to. If somebody had come up to me halfway through Buna and said, “hey Bob, you can leave here now and go home”, I’d have gone home, so would everybody else. You stay because you have to stay; nobody’s going to say you can go home. You adapt, I mean, and we got some time off in Australia, and we learned to make beach landings in Australia 1:18. Then we went up, we landed at Milne Bay, and then we went over to Goodenough Island. There was a little set to on Goodenough Island. I was in charge of, and I knew the colonel, Colonel Schnepke, and we were there at Thanksgiving in 1943, and we had just landed there and it was a couple days before Thanksgiving, so we went back to the quartermaster because we heard they were giving out turkeys, and the quartermaster said, “you guys can’t get turkeys because these are for the base people here, and you guys are going to be leaving in a few days”. I went back and told the colonel, and he was furious. He went to General Harding, and General Harding blew his stack. It wasn’t General Harding, but it was the general, and they went back down there and we got the turkeys that were meant for the base people. 2:17 We 29 �had turkeys up the kazoo. We had cooks—everybody was cooking turkey, and there was like a turkey for every two men. They gave us every turkey they had on hand. That was before we made our beach landing at Saidor. Interviewer: Bob, to wrap up here I just wanted to ask you a question. It’s more of a personal question. What do you feel personally, what was the effect of your being in the Red Arrow, the battle experience you had, the experience you had in the military, how did that affect the rest of your life? Oh, it didn’t affect it much except I found a lot of buddies, we all had the same thing in common, and we had a kinship that nobody else can have, and that’s why--we’re a dying outfit, you know, and we don’t want to bring in anybody else. 3:15 They talk about bringing in our sons and that, and I have a son, but I’m not going to ask him to become a member of this because we have something that even by son could not achieve, you know. I have a son-in-law that was in Vietnam, and I lost a brother in Korea, and he was in the infantry. He wasn’t in the infantry, he was in the combat engineers, and I lost him in Korea, and it’s been tough on my mother. Interviewer: I have been very honored to meet all of you when you got together the first time, and I was very pleased the museum was able to put on that symposium that all of you were at. I am very honored sir that we are here and that your family, and your future family, is going to be able to have the same kind of joy of saying that I had a chance to know you. I appreciate it 30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HartmanR0341V2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hartman, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-12 Title A name given to the resource Hartman, Robert (Interview transcript and video), 2003 Description An account of the resource Bob Hartman was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1919. He graduated high school in 1937 and joined the Michigan Army National Guard in 1938, assigned to the 126th Infantry Regiment, Service Company. His company’s task was to transport troops and provide them with ammunition, food, and clothing. He began as a truck driver and later became a Supply Sergeant. His regiment went on maneuvers that lasted up to two months, traveling to places such as Texas, Louisiana, and Alabama. When Pearl Harbor was bombed, Hartman was in Jackson, Mississippi to see a football game and was ordered to go back to camp immediately. He was then shipped to Fort Devens, Massachusetts for about a month before taking a train back to Frisco, Texas. After that, he was shipped to Angel Island and boarded the Lurline to head for Australia. He landed in Adelaide and then took a train to Brisbane. Later, he flew to Port Moresby where he marched across the Owen Stanley Mountains and saw jungle combat as a platoon sergeant. Hartman suffered from malaria during battle, and the sickness continued to recur every month for about five years. Hartman later was flown to Papua New Guinea. He made a beach landing in Saidor, where he experienced a few skirmishes before arriving at Aitape a month or two later. At Aitape, he was shot in the stomach presumably by a sniper. He was hospitalized on base before being shipped back to Australia and eventually the United States, where he spent time at several hospitals in San Antonio, Illinois, and finally back home in Battle Creek, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brockschmidt, Kelli (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b93c8610dade654b749b847dbf1a72a.m4v 92ace895f96e03b02c561cda6b37349f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75156d96c45b61e7434f05690f2a6764.pdf eb43b65c1b46636d79e230e0201c2228 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Duane Harvey World War II 1 hour 36 minutes 44 seconds (00:00:11) Early Life -Born in Smelter City, Oklahoma in 1924 -Father worked at the Eagle Pitcher Zinc Smelter -Worked part time during the Great Depression -Also worked odd jobs to supplement his income -Area did not get greatly affected by the Dust Bowl -Had “dusty days” but not the massive dust storms like western Oklahoma -Stayed in the same town growing up -Had two brothers and one sister, he was the youngest -Finished high school in 1943 (00:03:53) Start of the War and Getting Drafted -Heard about Pearl Harbor via the radio and by word of mouth -Aware of the war in Europe prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor -Local newspaper would cover the conflict -Didn’t expect the United States to get involved -A lot of the men in town enlisted after Pearl Harbor was bombed -National Guard members were mobilized -Didn’t consider enlisting -Felt he was too young and wanted to complete high school first -Draft was instated in 1942 [1941, but he was only old enough to be eligible in 1942] -Draft boards had quotas to fill which meant all men became eligible for drafting -Meant that when you turned eighteen you had to report to your local draft board -Granted deferments for thirty or sixty days before you were classified -Classified as 1A (fit for service) or 4F (unfit) for example -Still had to complete high school before you began basic training though (00:08:50) Basic Training -Started basic training in July 1943 -Got inducted at Fort Sill, Oklahoma -Took tests to determine which part of the Army you would serve in -Got sent to Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland for ordnance -Had a specialized replacement training center there for new draftees -Got issued his fatigues at Fort Sill before going to Aberdeen Proving Grounds -At Aberdeen got assigned to a barracks and his training unit -Basic training lasted eight weeks -Typical morning consisted of physical training, drills, and introduction to Army protocol -In the afternoon they were given firearms training which led to rifle qualification -Discipline was very strict in basic training -For infractions you had to do pushups or were given extra kitchen patrol duty -For him it was easy to adjust to living in the Army �-Had grown up with simple meals and few, to no luxuries -Had more clothes as a soldier than as a civilian -Didn’t have trouble with following orders -Grew up obeying teachers and parents and felt that the Army was no different -Recruits and draftees came from all over the United States -Trained with men from New York City, Chicago, and California -Got introduced to Poles, Italians, and Jewish men -Lived with these men so you bonded with them and ignored the differences (00:18:40) Ordnance and Other Training at Aberdeen Proving Grounds -After basic training began training to specialize in small arms, field artillery, and vehicles -Got assigned to a new group of trainees at Aberdeen Proving Ground -Ordinance training lasted about eight to twelve weeks -During this time got sent to Fort Meade, Maryland as part of a special training group -Showed promise of being a leader so he was put through Noncommissioned Officer School -Learned how to lead and how to teach other soldiers -Specifically requested not to be assigned to be a drill sergeant though -Final part of training was an urban combat course (00:22:05) Deployment to England -After training got sent to a staging area in Pennsylvania -From Pennsylvania got sent to New York City to board a troop ship in May 1944 -Wound up arriving in England just before D-Day -Had been granted a two week leave home prior to being deployed -Sailed over to England aboard the S.S. Argentina -Traveled with a convoy of other ships -Weather wasn’t bad and doesn’t recall getting seasick -At night no one was allowed on deck, and during the day the deck was extremely crowded -Led to not having much to do in the way of occupying time (00:26:21) Arrival in England -Ship stopped at Glasgow, Scotland -Did not disembark there and instead boarded a ferry bound for Liverpool, England -From Liverpool got sent to Birmingham -By now D-Day was well underway -In England he was assigned to Litchfield Barracks as part of an antiaircraft unit -Part of the 10th Replacement Depot -Started to receive word about how many troops had been lost in Normandy -Noncombatant soldiers were being reassigned to be riflemen -Others were offered the chance to join the 501st Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division -He volunteered because it would let him stay in England longer (00:31:06) Paratrooper Training -After volunteering to join the 501st he was sent to a “jump” (parachuting) school in England -Led by the well-known (from Band of Brothers) Captain Sobel -He never had any problems with him though -Carried out mock jumps on the ground -Repetitive drills that involved pretending to jump out of a C47 plane -Physical training was intense -Command wanted to wash out the volunteers that weren’t suited to be paratroopers �-Learned how to pack their parachutes a few days before a live jump -During the second week of training he did his first live jump -Did five jumps at varying altitudes and qualified to be a paratrooper in one day (00:38:12) Deployment to France -By now the 101st Airborne and 82nd Airborne were in Holland as part of Operation: Market Garden -Because it was a British operation American replacements weren’t being sent to Holland -He got sent to Mourmelon, France to join B Company of the 501st Regiment for a couple weeks -Wound up getting assigned to an S2 Squad in Headquarters Company -Job was to man the observation posts and to deal with prisoners of war -Upon arriving in France got advised to wear warm clothes for where he was being transferred (00:44:02) The Battle of Bastogne -Joined an S2 Squad with 327th Glider Infantry Regiment in Bastogne, Belgium in December -When he arrived there snow was already on the ground -Within a couple days he was selected to be part of a team to establish a roadblock -Set it up on the east side of Bastogne -First day there didn’t have any contact with the Germans -The next day they were shelled and lost a few soldiers -He spent most of his time on the back side of Bastogne -Didn’t get attacked by the Germans as bad as the front position did -Knew that Bastogne was surrounded by Germans -Word that they were surrounded traveled quickly -Knew that the possibility of being surrounded came with being a paratrooper -Had to dig into frozen ground to create their foxholes -The best way to survive was to dig a foxhole and hunker down in it -Unit was poorly supplied during the German siege of Bastogne -Stayed with the 327th Regiment for about a week before being rotated out (00:50:35) Alsace-Lorraine Pt. 1 -After Bastogne he rejoined his original S2 Squad -For three days he would man an observation post then get rotated back to headquarters -In their observation post had a field telephone, but no radio -Had to rely on calling a radio operator to make a longer range call -Remembers operating in an observation post in Alsace-Lorraine when he encountered Germans -Observed a German mortar crew that was nearby, but of no real threat -Sergeant ordered him to shoot them -Refused on strategic and ethical grounds: saw no reason to shoot them -Sergeant ordered another soldier to fire and that soldier did -Alerted the Germans to their position -Germans began to mortar their post and they were forced to move as a result (00:55:40) Detail about Bastogne -While in Bastogne he got the chance to stay in a nearby castle a few times -Helped provide security for the officers that were being kept there -Secure position and optimum for protection of high ranking soldiers -While there he found an officer’s down sleeping bag unattended in a hallway -Managed to grab it while no one was looking -Kept him warm throughout the winter in Europe �-Still has the sleeping bag to this day (00:58:05) Returning to France Pt. 1 -In March 1945 he was able to return to Mourmelon, France -Given a chance to shave and shower -Also given a haircut -Essentially given a small psychological reprieve from living in the field for months -Despite what his unit went through morale was always good (01:00:42) Alsace-Lorraine Pt. 2 -In Alsace-Lorraine during the Battle of the Bulge the objective was to maintain the frontline -Didn’t want to make any grandiose advances against the Germans -Just wanted to make sure that the Germans didn’t break through their line (01:03:50) German Prisoners of War -While his division would press an attack the S2 Squads would follow behind to collect POWs -His job was to guard them and transport them for later holding and interrogation -Saw most of the prisoners as just Germans, not as young or old, just as Germans -Most of the Germans were complacent with becoming prisoners of war -Knew they’d be treated well and were ready to stop fighting -Occasionally German prisoners would be shot if they weren’t worth transporting -Made no distinction between rank or affiliation with infamous units like the Waffen-SS (01:08:10) Returning to France Pt. 2 -After being sent to Mourmelon, France in March 1945 the 501st was kept there -Idea was to help keep the Soviet advance in check -Also began to pull German POWs away from the frontline to the rear -Concerned about the prospect of the Russians massacring German POWs (01:11:44) Interactions with Civilian Populaces -Had more interactions with the English civilians than with most European civilians -Language barrier in mainland Europe made communication more difficult -Initially found the French to be welcoming, but soon noticed they were opportunistic -The price of goods being sold by French merchants was being driven up -Had disdain for that behavior -Passes were handed out for visiting Paris and visiting the French countryside -Most men opted to stay on their bases though -Had no reason to go into cities or villages because food was too scarce (01:14:00) Occupation Duty in Germany Pt. 1 -At the end of the war he was sent to join the 101st Airborne in Berchtesgaden, Germany -Objective was to help carry out occupation duties and maintain an American presence -Helped to keep the Soviets from advancing out of their prescribed zones -Personnel in the 501st were being rotated to the 101st’s frontline positions -Men like Duane were being used to relieve the men who had been in longer -He was assigned to the 81st Airborne Antiaircraft Glider Battalion -After the end of the war in Europe the 101st Airborne was slated for the invasion of Japan -After the atomic bombs were dropped and Japan surrendered the 101st was deactivated (01:17:20) Coming Home -After the 101st was deactivated he was reassigned to the 82nd Airborne Division -Completed his service with them and returned home with them -Sailed from Southampton, England to New York City �-Marched in a 5th Avenue Victory Parade in New York City with the 82nd Airborne -Still considered himself to be a “Screaming Eagle” of the 101st Airborne though -When he got home it was January 1946 (01:18:00) Occupation Duty in Germany Pt. 2 -While still in Europe he remembers at the end of the war staying in “cigarette camps” -Military camps that had been named after cigarette brands -After the war ended he was assigned to be part of the force carrying out occupation duties -Still viewed the Germans with suspicion and disdain -Fraternization with the Germans was not allowed at least at first (01:19:30) The Death of Don Fair -Remembers one soldier by the name of Don Fair that he knew from high school -Got killed during a German artillery attack near Bastogne -Often wonders about what Don Fair could have been and done in life? -What could he have contributed to the Army and to the larger war effort? (01:21:26) The Death of Gulick -Near the end of the war he was attached to A Company for a raid across an ice covered river AT 01:22:00 to 01:22:20 SOUND CUTS OUT -Got placed in charge of six replacements -Basically told to keep them out of the way -Once the raiding party crossed the river he instructed the replacements on what to do -Follow his lead, don’t get in the way and follow the guy in front of you -Five of the replacements wound up missing -During the raid captured three German soldiers -Missing replacements returned with one soldier severely wounded -On the way back to base that soldier died -Last soldier killed in the last action of the war his unit saw -Later in life met a sergeant who happened to know who the wounded soldier’s name was Gulick -Learned that Gulick had survived D-Day and Operation Market Garden -Struck by how this soldier had survived so much only to be killed in the last action -Wondered what this man’s life could have been like had he survived (01:27:10) Reflections on Russian Contribution -Astounded by how much the Russians lost in fighting the Germans -Believes that had it not been for their sacrifice D-Day would have failed -Feels that mainstream culture needs to recognize what the Russians did for the war effort (01:30:04) End of Service and Life after the War -Went to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas and was discharged from there -Even in January 1946 when he was discharged men were still being drafted -Struck by how young the draftees that he saw looked -Felt that the war had forced him to grow up -Went to college after the war -During that time got married and had children -Knows that without the GI Bill he would not have gotten to go to college -Got married to a woman who became a doctor -He studied geology and went on to do various work -His wife was the “bread winner” of their household -Uncommon at the time, but he didn’t mind it �(01:34:50) Reflections on Service -Life as a civilian during the Great Depression wasn’t much different than being in the Army -In some ways being in the Army was an improvement -Serving with people from different backgrounds made him able to be more tolerant -Showed him that it was better just to get along and work together on a goal � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HarveyD1597V Title A name given to the resource Harvey, Duane (Interview outline and video), 2014 Description An account of the resource Duane Harvey was born in Smelter City, Oklahoma in 1924. He grew up there and finished high school there in 1943. He was drafted in 1942, but allowed to complete high school and was inducted into the U.S. Army at Fort Sill, Oklahoma in July 1943. He was sent to Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland for basic training and for ordnance training. In the spring of 1944 he was sent over to England and arrived just prior to the D-Day Invasion. He was stationed at the Litchfield Barracks part of the 10th Replacement Depot until he volunteered to join the 501st Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division and become a paratrooper. After completing paratrooper and “jump” (parachuting) training in England he was sent over to Mourmelon, France where he was first assigned to B Company and later joined an S2 Squad in Headquarters Company dealing primarily with observation posts and processing German prisoners of war. He saw action at Bastogne and in Alsace-Lorraine during the Battle of the Bulge and after the war ended was part of the American occupying force in Germany, and returned home in January 1946. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harvey, Duane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-06-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ae7e979262c2f7c6c26d6d437c5809b9.mp4 00ca6b853b1818e74b8b1c6d671f10c4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fa8de4c3e9d49e210fa858a67116ceb1.pdf 4f3ca218e9974dda84567ed5df7b765e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Ralph Hauenstein World War II 1 hour 16 minutes 35 seconds (00:03:03) Beginning of Military Service -Working as a city editor [for Grand Rapids Herald] in Grand Rapids, Michigan before the war -Called into service by the War Department in September 1940 -He was a reserve officer at the time -Sent to Fort Sheridan, Illinois -This was the beginning of his duty as an intelligence officer -At the time the Army’s intelligence capabilities were very limited -He was made the Public Relations officer for Fort Sheridan -He worked alongside intelligence officers -Worked with an intelligence officer who had worked in the FBI -His duty as a PR officer was to insure that Fort Sheridan had a good public reputation -One of his first duties was to investigate a fire that had broken out at Fort Sheridan -This fire then resulted in some promotions being withheld -Ralph suggested calling in the FBI to find out who, or what, caused the fire -As per his suggestion the FBI was called in and the cause of the fire was discovered -A soldier had been stealing gas, and smoking a cigarette while doing so -Worked in conjunction with Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois -Acted as a liaison for the Army with the Naval intelligence there -Another job was to work in counter subversive operations -Select an informant from the lower ranks to report any subversive talk among soldiers -He felt that it was insidious -Eventually the operation was eliminated -At the time he had access to top secret radar detection systems -This was because one of Fort Sheridan’s primary duties was antiaircraft -When the machines arrived they were broken -It was initially thought to be the work of sabotage -Learned that it was just poor materials (00:09:27) Deployment to Iceland -He learned early on that the United States would eventually get into the war -He was made part of an intelligence team to be sent to Iceland with a Marine brigade -They were going to relieve British troops that had occupied Iceland -Iceland was technically in the zone of combat -The objective in going to Iceland was to stop Germany from taking over Iceland -If Iceland was lost German U-Boats could work from there to stop supply convoys -The British that they were relieving had been the ones that fought at Dunkirk, France -Went to Iceland in September 1941 -His assignment was to be an assistant G2 (intelligence) officer (00:13:00) Awareness of the War -He was convinced early on that the United States would go to war �-Thought that it would be because of German aggression, not Japanese aggression -Remembers when the Germans torpedoed the USS Kearney in October 1941 -This happened before the U.S. was even formally in the war -He had to take an Icelandic tug boat out to where the ship had been attacked -He made a report to be sent back to President Roosevelt -Tried to keep the incident quiet in Iceland so that the news couldn’t report on it -Had the news reported on it the U.S. could have gone to war much earlier (00:15:14) Living Conditions in Iceland -Slept in Nissen huts -Helped build up the infrastructure of Iceland -Building roads and setting up telephone lines -Had to live on spam for a few months -He worked with a good staff in Iceland (00:17:16) Start of the War -He was largely unsurprised that the United States was finally dragged into the war -The only thing surprising about it was that Japan, and not Germany, had attacked -This was simply because the focus had been on Europe, not on Southeast Asia -Immediately concerned about a possible German attack on Iceland -There were a few German battleships operating in the area -Had to hope that the British Navy would be able to aid them if necessary -Early on Germany began to send over bombers to gather intelligence -If they flew low enough to take accurate photographs they were shot down -He was sent to investigate a German bomber that had been shot down over the glacier -Went out with a team and discovered German naval codes had been onboard -He was sent to London to deliver the code book to the British intelligence -They realized the value of what had been found (00:20:47) Wartime Operations in Iceland -The main purpose of forces in Iceland was antisubmarine warfare -Remembers watching convoys of 50 ships being sent to aid the Russians -Only seven or eight would return -He was promoted to be the commanding intelligence officer in Iceland -Worked as the liaison between Washington D.C. and London -Part of his new duty was to oversee the recon operations being carried out in Norway -Worked with Norwegian troops that had retreated to Iceland -Helped them infiltrate Norway to gather intelligence on German forces there -Began working with two Norwegian agents: Beetle and Cobweb -They would later become instrumental in the success of D-Day (00:23:20) Transfer to London -He expected to be sent back to the United States in 1943 -Instead he was transferred to London to begin working on a special mission -He was placed on an intelligence task force to handle the invasion of France -Planning the intelligence aspects of the invasion -Working with French resistance groups to aid in the invasion -When he got to England he was allowed some leave time in London -His task was to plan a phantom invasion of France -A ruse to distract the Germans from Russia long enough for Russia to counterattack �-Unfortunately Germany didn’t take the bait and stayed in Russia -His new position in London was to be the assistant to the chief of the Intelligence Branch -Worked with him on numerous projects, but namely D-Day -Placing new officers in new positions created in the Army -Translators, interpreters, and intelligence officers specifically -Worked in the G2 (intelligence) and G3 (operations) sectors of the Army -For the most part the British had commandeered the intelligence operations of the war -Relied on a “bodyguard of lies” to protect the truth -Essentially, deceive the Germans as much as possible to trick them into making mistakes (00:29:29) Intelligence Operations in London -Project Bodyguard was a two part intelligence operation -Fortitude which focused on Northern Europe -Zeppelin which focused on Southern Europe -He would liaison with British intelligence staff, but worked with an American staff -Aided by the British “Body of Twelve” -Designed plans to deceive the Germans -Submitted the plans to American intelligence to review -Look for any possible flaws or logistic problems (00:32:54) Operation Fortitude -He helped work on the plan to convince Germany the invasion would happen at Pas de Calais -Had to insure that 2,000 German tanks were kept away from Normandy -Specifically wanted to deceive Hitler into staying away from Normandy -They were always successful in tricking Hitler -They were able to know what the Germans were going to do, before they actually did it -Used British “Ultras” to intercept communications between Axis leaders -Always made sure to never underestimate Hitler -Managed to keep the bulk of Hitler’s forces in Norway and Denmark and out of France -Created “phantom” divisions and real divisions of troops as part of the deception -Managed to convince Hitler that the invasion would happen through Norway -Worked in conjunction with the Russians and the Swedes to pull this off -Started setting up a phantom division in southeast England to be led by Patton -Used inflatable vehicles and mannequins to convince German recon aircraft -Relied on the help of German double agents to gather intelligence from occupied Europe -Convinced Germany that nonexistent forces were going to be involved with the invasion (00:40:48) Preparing for D-Day -On the eve of the invasion the biggest concern was whether it would be successful or not -Took part in a council of intelligence officers from the U.S. and the British Empire -Organized by Lord Mountbatten -He was one of the two American officers at the council -Addressed the council and told them that battleships would be needed for the invasion -His idea was dismissed at first, but later implemented -Held in the Scottish Highlands -Watched as British Royal Marines prepared to scale the cliffs of Normandy (00:43:05) Logistics of D-Day and the Liberation of France -The logistical preparations were led by General CH Lee -Convinced Hitler that they would invade with 87 infantry divisions and 7 airborne divisions �-In reality they only had 37 infantry divisions and 5 airborne divisions -The only logistical problem during the French liberation was the gasoline supply -Patton was advancing so quickly they couldn’t keep his vehicles fueled (00:45:10) D-Day -On June 6, 1944 he was in the war room watching Operation Overlord play out -It was a somber environment -Everything wound up going according to plan for the most part -The only snag was a German reserve infantry division showed up at the last minute -Had gone up to Normandy to train and was there during the invasion -Another problem was that some troops were being unloaded too quickly -Got dropped off in high water and drowned -Began receiving reports that the bombardment and paratrooper missions had gone well -He knew at the end of the first day that this was the beginning of the end for Germany -Received reports that the French resistance had done their part in aiding the invasion -They had managed to destroy roads and railroads necessary for German movement (00:48:51) Liberation of France -After D-Day the next major strategic moves would be in the hands of Allied generals -The intelligence forces were able to keep a good order of battle -Basically knowing exactly where Allied and German forces were at all times -His job became to oversee the analysis of aerial photographs and the interrogation of prisoners -He was sent to Normandy and from there flew into Paris -Landed at a soccer field -Met with the French Forces of the Interior who escorted him through Paris -It was a grandiose entrance for the French forces to reenter Paris -He was taken to the Majestic Hotel in Paris which had served as the German headquarters -He converted it into his own intelligence headquarters -Throughout the war gathered intelligence about newly liberated areas (00:53:17) Battle of the Bulge -By December 1944 he knew that Hitler would ultimately be defeated -The only reason Hitler’s bulge strategy worked was because of communication discipline -He had ordered all German units to maintain a communications blackout -As a result that is why the German offensive caught the Allies off guard -After the Bulge failed in January 1945 Hitler was, for all intents and purposes, defeated -Knew it was just a matter of crushing German opposition (00:54:43) Beginning of the Cold War -As World War II neared its end he could see the Russian advance across Europe -There was concern that the USSR would turn on the Allies and start a whole new war -Stemmed from Russian troops occupying areas they were not supposed to occupy -Patton wanted to strike Russia first as soon as the war with Germany was over (00:56:10) End of the War -At the end of the war in Europe there was a chance he’d be involved in the invasion of Japan -There were concerns about morale for infantrymen that were going to be redeployed -At the end of the war he was back in the United States working in the War Department -Helping to get the CIA established and the placement of intelligence officers -He was anxious for the war to come to a complete end and to get out of the Army -The main purpose in establishing the CIA was to insure the U.S. had a concrete intel service �-At the start of the war there had been nothing until the OSS came along -The OSS being the precursor to the CIA -He was overjoyed when the war finally came to an end -At the end of it didn’t think of himself as being anyone that special in the war effort -Just one man that was part of a larger force for a higher good -Feels there are so many heroes that suffered so much for the cause (01:00:27) Meeting with German Officials and the Holocaust -At the end of the war he was involved with interrogating German officers -The purpose was to gather as much intelligence from them as possible -He met with Field Marshal Von Rundstedt of the Wehrmacht -Amicable to talk with -Von Rundstedt had wanted to surrender even before D-Day had happened -Confessed that he had had no faith in Hitler whatsoever -Said that he should have stayed in the mountains tending a farm -Met Herman Goering commander of the Luftwaffe -Found him fat, arrogant, and narcissistic -He was part of the Allied force that liberated Dachau -Saw the unbelievable atrocities that the Nazis had committed -Saw rooms filled with corpses and lye waiting to be burned or buried -Saw the gold fillings ripped from the mouths of victims (01:05:19) Postwar Duty and Reflections -One of his last duties was to help with the organization of the occupying force of Germany -Getting intelligence officers from the U.S. to Europe and in position -Felt a sense of accomplishment with the war being over -Went from working behind a desk becoming a colonel in the Army -Because of what they achieved there was a sense of accomplishment in everyone 01:08:38 INTERVIEW ENDS � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HauensteinR1701V Title A name given to the resource Hauenstein, Ralph (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-31 Description An account of the resource Ralph Hauenstein was working as a newspaper editor in Grand Rapids, Michigan in September 1940 and in the Army Reserved when he was called to active duty was assigned to be the public relations officer for Fort Sheridan, Illinois. In September 1941 he was assigned to an American intelligence task force, along with an American brigade, that was being sent to Iceland to relieve British troops that were stationed there. He worked as an intelligence liaison between Washington D.C. and London and oversaw the recon operations being conducted by Norwegian troops into Norway. After the outbreak of war he was transferred to an intelligence task force that was based in London that was preparing for the invasion of Western Europe through France. In the time leading up to D-Day he was involved in deceiving German forces stationed in Europe namely in the hugely successful Operation Fortitude which drew the bulk of German forces away from Normandy to Pas de Calais. He served as an intelligence officer during D-Day, the liberation of France, and the Battle of the Bulge as well as witnessed the results of the Holocaust. At the end of the war he took part in the interrogation of high ranking German officers and helped build the CIA out of the OSS. After the Second World War his time with the Army ended and he left with the rank of colonel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hauenstein, Ralph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d210618c51b05372960617886f9f831.mp4 f19d4d1639385f30ee84ec6ea653fa95 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f67c898b04d8d4e070573e818cdaf2f1.pdf 60f9485f522aa2734acff3df08eab661 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Albert Havinga 1:02:18 Background information (00:10)  Born in the city of Groningen, the Netherlands, in 1921 (00:17)  His father worked as a tool maker (00:17)  There were 5 children in his family, 4 boys and 1 girl. He was the 4th child in the family (1:04)  His father had job during the Great Depression in spite of economic hardship (1:27)  He was in school until age 15 but had to stop due to the start of the war in 1936 [the Germans invaded in 1940] (2:42)  He had chance a after the war to go to the U.S. and took it (3:26)  He attended evening School for 2 years (equivalency of High school) and worked several jobs before the invasion of Groningen in 1940 (4:19)  Resided with parents at this time (5:16)  much attention had been paid to the aggressive actives of Germany (5:37)  radio and news paper was used to inform public of German activates and advances (6:23)  Was married July 27th 1948 (47:00)  The following spring he moved to the U.S. (in 1949) (47:27) German Invasion (7:00)  German invasion of his town in May of 1940 had been unexpected (7:29)  Very little destruction had been witnessed during the invasion (8:14)  Germans seen on first day of offensive (8:40)  Germans appeared very orderly, and sang as they marched into town (8:48)  Originally there had been few demands imposed upon the native peoples by the Germans, but slowly buildings had been seized and a curfew was set at 8 o’clock (9:32)  Not known if any soldiers had had been stationed in his town, but many German soldiers were present (10:04)  Germans had not been very polite to the native people (10:44)  In May of 1940 the bank he worked at was told that 1 of 2 people had to be sent to Germany to work. This encouraged him to quit the bank and go into hiding (13:00)  He took a job at a mental institution as an orderly for a year (13:40)  Many Jews had been committed there pretending to be insane but were not (13:45)  Germans needed more men to fill jobs that had been left so that men could fight in the war (14:33)  Germans did not attempt to recruit the Dutch as troops but some had volunteered in support of Hitler (15:16) �    After working as an orderly he traveled to the northern part of Groningen and worked in a grocery store (16:13) His cousin was a state trooper and was asked to apprehend several individuals but did not want to. This lead to the imprisonment of him as well as his parents by the Germans (17:38) Havinga came back to central Groningen in 1944 (17:40) Returned to lives with his parents (18:00) Effects of the Occupation (20:11)  no news papers were circulated within the last two years of the occupation 19421944 (20:55)  no radios, Germans demanded all radios be turned in (21:01)  no cars were aloud (20:06)  there was very limited if any gas available (21:13)  no bikes, due to the German seizing of tires (21:15)  no negatives (film) (21:40)  there had been no public transpiration within the last two years of the occupation 1942-1944 (21:45)  no train transpiration (21:50)  no toilet paper (21:56)  no gas for home heating or cooking (except for 2 hours in the middle of the night) (22:11)  In spite of the ban on radios, a lot of people had still owned one. Often they were hidden so they would not be taken away (22:46)  collection days where set up by the Germans for resources such as copper (23:50)  Food was not as scarce as in other more populated areas but still limited during the occupation (24:35)  Some bartering of goods and food had been done in Groningen. (26:63)  almost every night bombing could be heard overhead (28:48)  no air attack had been directed against Groningen specifically but some bombs had been accidentally dropped on the location (28:57) German treatment of the Jews and foreigners (30:03)  A close family friend had hidden a Jew from the Germans. (30:31)  Paper stars had been used in the town to identify Jews. (31:47)  Future wife was apprehended in 1941 as a result of having lived in the U.S. She was transferred to Amersfoort then Germany then to a camp in France. She was freed in 1943 (33:12)  She had been arrested as a result of technically being a U.S. citizen as it was where she was born. (33:43) Near the end of the occupation (35:40)  nearing the end of the war, German attitudes had been more bitter due to losses in other nations (35:45) �   In one instance, he had been used to transfer ration coupons for the underground. These were to be used to feed individuals that the underground kept in hiding (36:33) Germans often interrupted with the actions of the train to “clean” cars or check them for suspicious individuals. (37:00) Some friends and family had been sent off to Germany in order to fill work positions (40:50) After the War (42:40)  He re-met with very few individuals who had been taken to Germany or prisoner camps during the occupation (42:48)  It had been very difficult to get around due to the disarray of the country and transportation (42:53)  After he got engaged to his future wife, there was great difficulty in finding a home because none had been built for ten years (43:13)  Residents with no children were forced to take couples in (43:22)  He was placed on a waiting list to move to the U.S. with a projection time of 5 years. However after marrying his wife who had already been a U.S. citizen, he was able to move in 1949. (43:36) The Liberation of Groningen on April 13th-16th of 1945 (44:30)  Mortars and other weaponry could be heard so he and others took cover on the floor of a house (45:01)  The House took a direct hit from an explosive round. When he went over to investigate another round hit the home and plaster shrapnel was blown into his eyes making him unable to see (45:30)  Small airplanes where spotted overhead (45:50)  The liberation of Groningen by the Canadian army could not be “enjoyed” by him as he was unable to see (46:20)  The day after when his eyesight returned there were still German bodies on the ground and others had been surrendering and were taken away (46:30) Life after the Liberation (48:00)  Worked as an inspector of the distribution of fresh fish (48:08)  Worked in the office for a wine business for a year (48:46)  In this shop, a false wall was constructed during the war to hide all the oldest wines (49:10)  Worked in a cigar shop (49:43)  Cigarettes had been scarce. To cope with this some people even smoked dried grass (50:00)  A short time after he came to the U.S. in 1949 (50:08)  Took private lessons at this time to become an accountant (50:17)  Regular jobs in Groningen had been scarce during the war however these businesses and positions quickly resurfaced after the war’s end. (50:57) �Life in the U.S. (52:48)  His first job was at a bakery (Moe’s bakery) in Grand Rapids (54:00)  He worked this job for about 6 months (55:17)  After words he worked at Mueller’s bakery on 28th street for 12-15 years (55:30)  Parents came to the U.S. from the Netherlands in 1956. (56:06)  at this time he had 3 kids (56 26)  he had been running low on funds so looked for a part time job (55:33)  began working at the post office (56:46)  Worked at the post office for 7-8 years for 3 hours at night (57:37)  he began working full time at the post office ~45 hours a week (58:00)  children went to colleges including Michigan State University and Hope College (58:45)  Was unable to speak English when arrived in the U.S. (1:00:03)  Wife stayed at home and took care of the children (1:00:27)  The first house he and his wife bought was a two family house on Madison Ave. in Grand Rapids (1:01:15)  They lived there for 22 years till it had been paid off (1:01:26)  After that at age 55 he purchased another home in 1976 (1:01:45) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Havinga, Albert (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Havinga, Albert Description An account of the resource Albert Havinga was a civilian residing in Groningen in the Netherlands during World War II. In this Interview Albert gives an account of the invasion, occupation, and liberation of his city from 1940-1945, as well as the recovery of the state after the occupation had ended. In addition, Albert describes many social and economic hardships that where encountered as a result of the Nazi invasion. He also briefly touches upon his immigration to the U.S. after the war had ended. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-18 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HavingaA1283V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74b965fc4808b144c14d233dc348d8ff.m4v 640f378cfe2b4b075bb66279db5ceb30 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cf5703acd434a5e6bfbffa44bcb01276.pdf 820b7633f9fedf24271680a3d223b4ed PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Raymond Hawkins, Jr. Length: 37:44 (00:10) Background Information       Raymond was born on July 7, 1956 in San Juan, Puerto Rico His father had been in the Navy and stationed in Puerto Rico when Raymond was born Raymond was a student at Michigan State University, training in the ROTC before he enlisted in the Army He was commissioned once he graduated and he became a 2nd Lieutenant Raymond was sent to Fort Riley, Kansas for about 1 month of basic training while in the ROTC and also went to Jump School at Fort Benning, Georgia Once he became a 2nd Lieutenant, Raymond was sent to Oklahoma for artillery officer basic training (3:20) Louisiana  After training Raymond was stationed at Fort Polk, Louisiana where it was very hot and there were tons of mosquitoes  Each individual unit there had their own cook and the food was very good  Raymond spent 3 years at Fort Polk before he was sent to Germany for another 3 years  While in Europe he was also able to travel to Spain and Italy  Once Raymond was finished in Germany he was sent to Oklahoma for more advanced training (5:35) Traveling  Once Raymond was off duty he worked as a defense contractor during the beginning of Desert Storm  He later worked in the Reserves through the latter part of Desert Storm  He was also in the Reserves after the 9/11 attack and then called up to serve in Bosnia  He felt Bosnia had once been a “westernized” country and had been torn apart by the war  There were elementary schools that had been turned into refugee areas for homeless people  There were graves everywhere and the men were threatened mostly by snipers  There were seldom ambushed, but there were also landmines everywhere left over from the Cold War  Part of their job was to remove the landmines and take weapons away from civilians (8:35) Working in Bosnia �     Raymond got along well with the other men he was working with and also the Bosnian civilians They used the internet for communications; telephone calls were too expensive They were seldom off duty for leisure and usually working 18 hours a day The men did a lot of logistics work, shipping supplies to soldiers in Afghanistan Overall Raymond had a good experience in Bosnia (11:45) Iraq  After Raymond was sent home from Bosnia, his unit was immediately mobilized again and he was sent back to Oklahoma  They began training other units that were to be deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan  Later that year his own unit was sent to Iraq, which was a very different atmosphere from Bosnia  They were never working at night, but it was still very noisy from all the bombs going off and he was never able to get any sleep  There were always rockets and mortars going off and IUDs on the roads  His unit continued working on logistics and supporting ground troops, driving civilian vehicles  To avoid the IUDs they go very fast, usually 90 MPG  Raymond spent 6 months in Iraq before he was once again sent to Oklahoma (15:55) After Service  Raymond continued training soldiers before they were to be shipped to Iraq or Afghanistan  He was overseas for 3.5 years and only spent 40 days of that time in his actual home on leave  Raymond had been married while overseas and had children, but they were a bit older and only one of them was still in school  His leave was hard on his wife and she was always very worried about him  Raymond found he had become pretty impatient in civilian life  He was used to having to make split second decisions and act quickly (21:41) Looking Back  Raymond is now retired and does not expect to ever be called up again  He felt very good once the Iraqis had their first election and was glad that they were showing the courage to get out and vote  He learned great problem solving skills, leadership, analytical and people skills from being in the Army  Raymond also learned to appreciate the many things Americans take for granted � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hawkins, Raymond Jr. (Interview outline and video) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hawkins, Raymond Jr. Description An account of the resource Raymond Hawkins, Jr. was born on July 7, 1956 in San Juan, Puerto Rico. His father was in the Navy and stationed in Puerto Rico at the time. Raymond went through ROTC while attending college at Michigan State University and was commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant once he graduated. He went through basic training at Fort Riley, Kansas and then through jump school at Fort Benning, Georgia. While in the service Raymond was stationed in Louisiana, Bosnia, and Oklahoma before he was discharged. He then worked as a defense contractor during Desert Storm and was serving in active duty in the Reserves during the second Iraq war. Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HawkinsJrR Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d27134d717332874b038e65e530a5b2.m4v 9b00d96e474e6a6f327facbfaad9dc49 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be3510ae1f1b4a763cade1b7b0bb41a6.pdf 52b692701b3bba4a8c1067329e6f56a1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Raymond Hawkins, Sr. Length: 24:09 (00:30) Training     Raymond was serving in the Navy towards the end of the Korean War, working as a communications technician He had enlisted in the Navy in hopes of traveling all around the world, and also because he had not wanted to be drafted into the Army Raymond went through basic training at Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago and was then stationed in Alaska He did not think that training was very fun, but it was very educational, learning nautical skills, Navy terms, weaponry, swimming, and survival skills (2:50) Average Days  While working in Aleutian Islands, the men would fish for salmon with their bare hands  He made many good friends and enjoyed working with them  Raymond did not ever see any combat and was able to keep in touch with him family by writing frequent letters  They lived in barracks in Alaska and often went bowling on their time off or watched movies  To learn survival skills they often had to sleep outside in the snow and it was freezing  In Puerto Rico they were able to spend time on the beach during their time off (6:20) Working in the Navy  Raymond had started off in Chicago, and was then sent to California for radio school and security training  They were often working on top secret information with the NSA and he thought many strange things were going on  Raymond got along well with the other men he worked with and his officers  Once he received orders that he was going to be discharged, he was sent from Puerto Rico to Norfolk, Virginia  Raymond had been married while he was in the service and had a son (9:20) Life After Service  It was a very nice day when Raymond was discharged, but he had hoped to travel more while in the Navy  Raymond decided not to re-enlist because his family needed him �     He went back to working at his father’s dental business and was expected to take it over one day, but he wished he had gone to college Raymond still keeps in contact with the men he served with and often emails them He continued to work in his father’s dental business for 40 years and is now retired Raymond has been retired or 12 years and keeps busy with his grandchildren and traveling He spent 4 years in the Navy and now thinks that every young man should spend a few years in the service � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hawkins, Raymond Sr. (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hawkins, Raymond Sr. Description An account of the resource Raymond Hawkins, Sr. served in the Navy during the end of the Korean War. He enlisted in the Navy with hopes of traveling and avoiding being drafted into the Army. Raymond went through basic training at Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago, Illinois. He then went through radio school and security training in California before he was stationed in Alaska. Raymond served as a radio technician in Alaska and Puerto Rico and was in the Navy for a total of 4 years. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacobson, Zachary (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-03 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HawkinsSrR Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a66e078944717745ebbb1b2e38288e40.pdf e8cd485d67e09f97f8e7b239d09ba103 PDF Text Text Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department Edward and Gretchen Hawley Interview Interviewed by Nora Salas and Paul Kutsche June 18, 2016 Transcript NS: Melanie got this water for you. I don't know if you wanted some coffee or something. EH: Well, I don't like bottled water. NS: Uh oh. EH: So, I do not want the water. NS: Okay. EH: And I don't think I need any coffee right now, so I think we'd better go ahead... NS: Okay. EH: ...with what we need to do. NS: Sounds good. Yes, well, we have some questions, but of course, you know, it’s up to you, also, what direction you want to take things. We do need to say a couple of things right at the beginning just so we 1 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department get it on the recording. And then if the recording were ever separated from the records, for some reason in the future, they would be able to know who was here and what they did, et cetera. EH: Alright. NS: Okay so, and we'll have to put your name in, too… when we say the interview name. EH: Anyway, should I say… this is what I thought I would say at the beginning here… NS: Okay. EH: ...if it would work in. Do you want me to say it here now or? NS: Well, right, maybe right after I say our names and the dates and such. So, this is Nora Salas and... PK: Paul Kutsche NS: ...and we are here today with... EH: Ed Hawley NS: ...Ed Hawley at the Hart… PK: City Hall [laughter]. NS: ...City Hall? EH: Well, it’s a Commons. Don’t they call this the Hart Commons, back here behind the City Hall? NS: Yes. EH: I think. NS: Yes, in Hart, Michigan and today, which is June 18th, 2016, this oral history is being collected as part of the Growing Community Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Of course, thank you for agreeing to come and be interviewed and talk with us today. And we are interested in talking more about your family history and your experiences in Oceana County. Before we go into this, can you please state, again, your full name and spell it? EH: Yes, my name - well, if you want the whole thing - is Edward Adair Hawley. E-d-w-a-r-d A-d-a-i-r H-aw-l-e-y. NS: Sounds great. EH: OK. NS: Why don’t you go ahead? EH: When the topic for today first appeared in the Oceana Herald Journal, I knew that the Hawley Nursery and Fruit Farm is an important part of that history. I also knew that there are only four of us left with personal experience of that history. The other three are my sister Martha Ann Piegols, my nephew John Hawley, and my niece Joann, who with her husband David, own and operate the fruit farm. My 2 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department sister always defers to me in things like this and she has a conflict today anyway. Well, Saturday is the busiest day of the week for the other two and their businesses. So here I am ready to share what I can. NS: Awesome, thank you. So, we have questions... we don't have to go by these questions, especially if you get started on a particular topic… EH: Oh, I have a bunch... NS: ...or you want to have your own things. Why don't we start with what you brought, I think would be better. EH: Okay, well, I went in yesterday - no, Wednesday - to the Chadwick Munger House, office of the OCGHS. And they were pointing out to me that on their curb lawn, there is a cherry tree that was given by my father, Monroe Hawley, to Dr. Munger and he still... he finished his practice but was still living in the Munger House. And that tree still blooms every year and has cherries every year, so that is a connection. And then another connection that might be missed. This book that I have brought with me is a history of the Robinson and Hawley families by Duane Robinson, who was a cousin of mine and the family connection goes back to the Hart High School class of 1907 because Morris Robinson and he was a Morris who spelled Morris: M-o-r-r-i-s, but my dad is a Maurice and he spelled / it’s spelled: M-a-u-r-ic-e. The connection is that in 1892, my grandfather, who had just graduated from an institution then known as the Michigan Agricultural College in East Lansing, and his brother, who Harry Edward Hawley came from Ganges, much further south down near Fennville, up to Oceana County, and leased eightyseven acres because there was a railway track that kind of angled and made a boundary of it that was owned by the Hubbard family. And they leased this farm from the Hubbard family and began the Hawley’s Nursery and that was in 1892. My Uncle Ed, we called Uncle Ed... I just sent a big email off to the Robinson family members who live out in Seattle, Washington - another long story that I need to tell - and but that Morris Robinson went to Hart High School and my men in our part of the family call him “Uncle Ed” stayed up here and rented a house on the same road that this eighty-seven acres was on. And his daughter, Hazel. Oh, this is my wife Gretchen… [?]: ...who wants to come and add to the story. NS: Okay, we need a chair. [?]: I will get one for her. NS: Gretchen, did you sign the release form at the beginning? GH: No, I didn't expect that I would be doing anything. NS: Do you want to say something? Maybe you should sign it just in case you need to sit to interject. GH: Okay. NS: Because I think if you interject and you haven't signed it, I think we might have to try to edit you out or something and it could get really complicated. [?]: OK, should I take her back out there to do that or bring it in here? NS: Just to the beginning station where… what’s that young woman's name? 3 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department [?]: I don't know. NS: I don't know either. [Laughter] [?]: [Laughter]. Okay. NS: Then we would, of course, welcome you to come in. GH: Oh, thank you. Thank you. I’ll sign... NS: Yes. PK: Good morning. I’m Paul Kutsche. Remember we met last year? GH: We did. PK: And this is Nora Salas, who is conducting the interview. NS: Hi, I'm sorry, what's your name? GH: I'm Gretchen Hawley. NS: Gretchen. Hi, Gretchen. PK: Oh yes, Mrs. Hawley. GH: Yeah. NS: Yeah, I got that part. [Laughter] GH: Fifty-eight years this summer. NS: Oh, my goodness. GH: Well, of course, we started late, that’s really amazing. [Laughter] PK: By the way, the two of you have Michigan State in common. Dr. Salas got her Ph.D. in History, was it not? NS: It is true, yes. PK: From Michigan State. PK: Your fellow alumni. EH: Oh, an alum. Mine is also... NS: Oh, really? EH: ...but that was much longer ago. NS: Well, yes. 4 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EH: Specifically, in nineteen forty-three. I think I have that right. So, but I...and it was a strange situation because it was wartime and I was studying for the ministry so I had a deferment for that purpose. And I felt because all my friends were going into the service or were conscientious objectors, that I should since I had this deferment, that I should get to college as fast as I could. Well, all these friends were in danger one way or another. And so, Michigan State had a requirement that you could only take twentyone credit hours and, from the time of Pearl Harbor, I began to do that in order to get through as fast as I could. And also, being the school it was - MSC, as it was when I was there - had a requirement that you could only take twenty-one credit hours in a semester, or not, a quarter because they were in the quarter system. And so, I was trying to do that, but also, we had ROTC and that was a credit and a half. And so, I wound up taking twenty and a half credits each semester and goes right through the summers. And then I was going on from there to Chicago Theological Seminary on the University of Chicago campus by Rockefeller Chapel. And I should remember his name - began with a “K” - my History major professor. Oh, I suddenly relaxed for my last term since they would not let me take twenty-one and a half credits. PK: [Laughter] EH: “No, you can’t do that, you have to go to summer school.” So, they gave me a blank sheet of paper, they let me stand in line for graduation, but I had to write one more paper. So, I… ten o'clock on a Saturday morning, I went in with my last paper and left it on my history professor's desk and went out and hitchhiked to Chicago with everything that I needed on a backpack. And amazingly, the University of Chicago and Michigan State were on exactly the same schedule, so I arrived on a Saturday evening and on Monday morning I took my first course at eight o'clock in the morning in seminary. So that was my transition and how they could be on exactly that same term schedule. And also have an intensive sixweek summer school divided in half was amazing, but that's what happened. PK: Did you happen to be a contemporary in the seminary with Duncan Littlefair, who became… EH: No, I know Duncan Littlefair from Grand Rapids, but he was in divinity school and I was in Chicago Theological Seminary, which were a part of a federated faculty and this gets so complicated. PK: Oh, I see. That, of course, has nothing to do with the project… [Laughter]. PK: Since I’m a member of Fountain Street Church, I was curious whether… EH: Yeah, well, that's right. I certainly knew Duncan Littlefair, but that was the connection. He was younger than I. NS: Before we go too much farther, Gretchen, just in case you do have something to add, at the beginning you missed the part where we ask people to state their name and spell it. Just in case, at some point in the future the written record were to be separated from the recording, then people would always know who was here. So, if you could do that, that would be really helpful. GH: Alright. I'm Gretchen Hawley. G-r-e-t-c-h-e-n H-a-w-l-e-y. And I'm Ed’s wife. We were married on the Fourth of July, nineteen fifty-eight. NS: Thank you. Easy day to remember. 5 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department GH: I was a town girl and I married a farm boy. PK: Which town? GH: Lowell. PK: Oh! NS: So, one of the first questions on here… we’re moving around a little bit, but... Ed, you grew up here in Hart, right? The relationship with the nursery? EH: Well, on a farm outside of Hart. NS: The seventy-eight acres? EH: Yes. Yeah, eighty-seven. NS: Sorry, yeah. It says, “tell us about where you grew up, some of your most vivid memories from childhood.” EH: Okay. Well, I, believe it or not, can...I have a memory of my sister's birth. There was no hospital in Hart or Shelby at the time I was born, which was in 1923, and my sister was born two and a half years later. But our doctor, who was Dr. Nickelson, a contemporary of Doctor Munger's, the house where his office is still down here on Main Street. And he… when my mother went into labor, he sent a midwife out to help deliver the baby. And I don't remember when that happened to me. But I was aware enough as a two-and-a-half-year-old because we had bedrooms upstairs separated by just a passageway. Same house is still there in Iona now. But anyway, I have this distinct memory of my… my bed was by my parents' bed, but when she went - my mother went - into labor, they put me in the back room, of course, but I still remember that the midwife came and when I went back in, I was shown this new baby sister that I had and I am always amazed how things like that can somehow stick in our heads. But I do feel I… PK: Were you the oldest? EH: What? PK: Were you the oldest? EH: I was the oldest. PK: Uh huh. EH: And then we have another sister, Lucy, who is five years younger than Martha Ann. So, she was born in the hospital; by then, an old building that had been a family restaurant down by the… well, kitty corner from Ace Hardware, down there was the hospital and it had a big front porch. And another memory I have was my grandfather had appendicitis and went to the hospital and died at the age of sixty-two. And I can remember going down and, as a child or children, Martha and I weren't allowed to go into the hospital, but the big plate glass window from when it had been a house was in the same room that my grandfather was in, and we could stand on the porch and wave to him from outside the window of the hospital. So those are some ancient memories, but I don't know we need to go into them 6 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department with the Holly Nursery because I do want to get to the...specifically, the Holly Nursery part of this. And aren’t we supposed to be doing this out there or at this time or what’s the schedule? NS: To try to scan that stuff? EH: No, no, I’m not worried about scanning. We can do that… GH: No, you do it all here, Ed. EH: We do this all here? NS: Where you talk about it? EH: Oh, yeah. NS: The nursery? EH: Oh, okay. NS: Yeah. We can, if you want to go in that direction we can do that, but there's a couple of questions too. We don't have to do all the questions, though. EH: Okay. I definitely want to get into the Holly Nursery part of it. NS: Yes. Yeah, so we can go ahead and do that if you want to. And then afterwards, they have a couple of stations set up to scan the documents that you have there. So, if you want to take them out and talk about them then... if that's what you wanted to do. EH: I have one question about this, and that is about copyright, because this book, which I would very much like to get a lot of into the Historical Society record, is... I think has a copyright by… I can’t recall his name, my cousin. NS: Robinson? EH: Well, he's the author of this thing. GH: Duane. EH: Duane, yeah, Duane Robinson. And so… NS: I think we have to ask Melanie. EH: He’s gone and when I got into this, I remembered. Let me go back to give this part of the history, to get the Robinson / Hawley connection and why this is that way. Because Morris Robinson went to Hart High School and my uncle Ed’s daughter, Hazel, also went to Hart High School. I had thought they were in the same class, but they weren't. That's where they got to know each other. And they got married and Morris went on to get a law degree at Ann Arbor, to the University of Michigan, and then went to work for Sears Roebuck. And Sears Roebuck sent him out to Washington State and that's where he never really practiced law because he was too busy selling Sears products, I guess. [Laughter] 7 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EH: But I suddenly realized, having looked at this, that Duane finished this in 1974 and that some of us who are still living ought to update it. Well, he had five kids and so I sent an email off to all of them yesterday saying that it suddenly struck me that some of us needed to bring this up to date while we’re still around. And I don't think they’ve… well, I haven't heard back from any of them yet. And there's a son who was a rather famous jazz musician. Well, a cousin of mine. So anyway, I hope that some of us will be willing to bring it up to date. And I can't imagine any of them would object and probably would never know anyway if I had some of us stand... PK: What is the date of the copyright, Ed? EH: What? PK: What is the date when this is copyrighted? NS: Because the law is different depending on when the copyright was. GH: It just says 1974. PK: Oh, so the copyright may still be enforced. NS: We can... I think that when we get to the part of scanning it, if we ask Melanie then… EH: Okay, NS: ...we can see what she has to say. Is there a copy of this in the historical society? EH: No. NS: Okay, just for your family? EH: I wish there were and I don’t know if there’s any loose copies around, there might be now because some family members may have died and their offspring have no interest it, but I'm not sure of that. Ideally if the whole thing could be in there... GH: We need to get it. We have a copy at home and this one at the cottage. EH: No, this is Steve's. GH: Oh, no, that's the one I took out of our bookcase. EH: Oh, it is, okay. This... we have it then; one in each place. PK: Well, of course, you know that you're at liberty to deposit this with the historical society, quite apart from scanning it. EH: Yeah, okay. PK: Whether it's, you know, whether the copyright’s enforced or not. NS: Yeah, especially if you fear later it might not be preserved, you know, down the line, then that could be a good idea. Sometimes people save a lot of things and then, you know, not everybody saves it after they're gone, unfortunately. 8 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department PK: It's awfully hard for families to keep things and let them get destroyed. And I'm right in the middle of it in my family. So, if I may, I urge you to… if you have a spare copy to deposit it with the historical society… NS: Think about it. PK: ...then if you want to update it, there's no reason you can't do that. Then they might eventually have two versions. The earlier and the later. All the better. NS: Yeah. Sometimes families, even if they want to preserve it, though, you know, the basement floods or something, you know, things are accidents. People move, lose track of things. PK: Well, I've been desperately trying to keep family records together, and I find that little bits of paper just sort of wander off. And so, the earlier they get deposited in a place that professionally can keep them the better, I think. NS: Now, what's this one that you have there? Is this about the nursery? EH: Indirectly. This is my dad here in the picture. And I made copies of this yesterday. And the historical society has one already so… GH: They copied that, you’re saying. EH: No, but was one thing, well I guess, we found. NS: So, this nursery… EH: Yeah. NS: ...when your family worked on that, what can you tell? What do you think is really significant? What do you remember about it? EH: Well, the fact is that a high percentage of all of the fruit trees in Oceana County and up and down the west shore of Lake Michigan were originally produced and sold by Hawley’s Nursery - the Hawley Nursery is the correct name. And so, in order to have the trees to sell, we had to get rootstock from someplace out in Oregon or Washington state, I'm not quite sure which. And then someone in March of each year, we'd have to have a field where they would plant all of this rootstock. And then come August, some of us - including me and a lot of kids from high school and all of my relatives of roughly the same age, my cousins - all crawled on our hands and knees up and down fields all over this county, because my dad needed fresh ground not to do this on the same field every time. So, he would lease land all over the county, really. And then send us… we had some very experienced and very fast and good budders [?]. But the technique was - having cut off the tops of these and dropping the root stock - was to... the budder [?] would go down the aisle and make a cut in the rootstock, and then he'd have a bundle that my dad would have or somebody going out into the orchards where there was fruit, true to name on a tree, and cut off a stick of buds. And as he crawled down, the person crawled down the aisle, pulled one out from behind and made a slip behind it, kind of a pointed slip. And then he would cut like this and slide that down into the rootstock. And then some of us would crawl along behind with a specific length of rubber band and wrap that up tightly. And then it would be left until the next spring when that bud 9 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department would sprout and grow. And I think it was usually a year later when those were dug out of the ground and sold to farmers. And I was intrigued just a year ago now that a friend, a near contemporary of mine in high school, Todd Novles [?] died and he had written his own obituary and he spent his adult life basically over on the other side of the state. But he wanted his obit[uary] because he would come over, he had a cottage… his family had a cottage on Pentwater Lake and it’s still in the family. And so, Tom, when he wrote his own obituary, and wanted one in the Oceana Journal, what he talked about in his obituary was how he crawled up and down the aisles budding [laughter] or tying rather behind the budder. PK: Does this then produce hybrid stock? EH: What? PK: Does this produce a hybrid, the rootstock plus what's going in? EH: No, the root stock… GH: ...it doesn’t influence it. EH: ...it doesn’t influence it. PK: Oh, it's merely the host! EH: Yeah. NS: It’s like grafted together. GH: Yeah. PK: Okay. NS: What kind of fruit was it? EH: What? NS: What kind of fruits? EH: Basically plums, pears, cherries - I think I’m onto five - and peaches… PK: And apples! EH: And apples, yeah. But then we always had I think usually just one quince among all of these. But and so those were all true to name and the people that bought them would be confident that they would be producing the same kind of peach or apple. My dad said it was, so… NS: Do you think it changed over from when you were smaller till later? Like, what kinds or different varieties? EH: Well, they were intended to be fewer and fewer. My sister still has in her house a catalog from the Hawley Nursery from something like 1907 that lists at least twenty-five different varieties of - I think it's 10 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department nearer a hundred different varieties - of all five of these. And because not all of them were sold commercially, that list got smaller and smaller as the years went on down to maybe forty varieties. NS: What do you think was the most biggest change from when it first started until now? EH: Well, the biggest change is that small nurseries like this were gradually forced out of business by the big commercial ones. What’s the one down in Kansas… near Kansas City? I should remember. Starcrow's [?] is one, but there are several of these that have pretty much forced all of the smaller nurseries out of business. PK: Hawley Nursery no longer is in business? EH: It's no longer in business. The fruit farm is because David and Joann Rennhack operate the fruit farm… live on and operate the fruit farm and have the Rennhack store now down across from Hansen’s where they sell all of their stuff. PK: Rennhack inherited or bought your business? EH: They inherited it; Joann is my niece so… PK: Really? EH: Yeah. PK: Wonderful family. EH: So, and Martha Ann… technically, Martha Ann and I are the inheritors in that generation, but Martha Ann passed hers down to Joann, and then Joann married David, so that's the connection there. NS: Do you remember roundabout when that stopped being able to be a nursery and went more to just the fruit farm part? EH: Yeah. John Hawley who his… my dad was Monroe Hawley. And then he had a brother, Morris, who died in the flu epidemic in the First World War in 1918. And then there were three girls in that family. And then my uncle, Herb, who has two daughters and a son, John, who's still… and John kept the nursery going for quite a while and had a place over on Polk Road for a while. But he and his wife were living in what is now the clubhouse for the Colonial Golf Course over on 72nd here. And that was a fruit farm which John also inherited when his dad died. He had kept it going because Herb wanted it to keep going, I think. And so, John took out all the fruit trees and made a golf course instead and he now is the manager of the golf course. And that's where Gretchen went to see if he had any Hawley Nursery stuff. GH: He didn’t, but he said hello. [Laughter] NS: When did the golf course go in? EH: What? NS: When do you think the golf course went in? EH: I think it's fifteen years ago, roughly, I'd have to… 11 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department PK: There was a restaurant there also for quite a while, was there not? GH: Well, there still is. PK: Oh, still is? That’s still running? GH: Inside Herb’s… that was the Herb Hawley house, that's the clubhouse. PK: You mean that beautiful, beautiful house there? GH: That was Herb’s house. EH: Before that, we always think of it as the Russell House because the original owner of that land, the man who built the house, was Judge Russell and Russell's Creek flows through and down and eventually into Hart Lake. And my uncle, Herb, bought that from the Russell family after Judge Russell died, and then he and Lucille, well, they built a smaller house for themselves and had John and Sandy living in the other house, in the big house. But Herb and Lucille are long gone. There was almost an even thirteen year difference between my dad and Herb, and then I’m about thirteen years beyond that. There’s all these girl children in between. NS: And this is ‘52 and this is your dad? EH: Yeah. NS: And it says he was a nursery man. EH: Yeah. NS: And he had the nursery through maybe the [nineteen] sixties, seventies or longer? EH: Well, he had… he and Herb together had the nursery. And then John took over when both of them were gone... NS: And he still had the nursery. EH: ...and he still had the nursery. NS: And then part of it became a golf course. PK: How many acres of trees did the Hawley Family have at the maximum, would you say roughly? EH: Well, there was that original eighty-seven acres, and then my dad bought what we called the Turner Farm across the street, across the road from that original property. And the reason he bought it is the man that did these wonderful postcards and note cards for the historical society just died a few weeks ago. PK: You don't mean Ed Ricketson, do you? EH: I do. PK: Oh! 12 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EH: Yeah. Because he worked on all those cards and I read his obit[uary] and didn't catch the fact that that’s whose obit[uary] I was reading, somehow. But, yeah, it was Ed Ricketson. And anyway, where was I going with that? [Laughter] PK: How large the enterprise was… EH: Oh, yes! And the reason for the Turner Farm. And that is that my mother grew up in Adrian, Michigan, which is down close to Toledo... closer to Toledo than any other sizable place. Anyway, she’s from Adrian. She went to Adrian College, then she got a master’s degree from the University of Michigan, and then she got hired to come up and teach high school in Hart. And it happened my dad's sisters were in her classes and dad, my grandfather, had been in… no, now we’re with my dad. My dad was in the Second World War and was with an army unit that went over to France. GH: Well, that would be the First World War, Ed. EH: Oh, my memory is... GH: [Laughter] NS: It's okay. EH: ...playing tricks on me. GH: It is. PK: There wasn't much time between the First World War and the Second. It’s easy to conflate them. NS: He met your mom, then, when she was at the school? EH: Yeah, that's right. This is the First World War, as Gretchen says. And so, my dad, Monroe, had missed going to Europe because he had scarlet fever, and the unit went without him, but he got discharged then after the armistice and came back to Hart. And his sisters had Doris Hawley as their teacher and she said they liked her very much and thought that they should introduce her to their brother. And so, one of the funnier stories about that is that he began dating Doris at his sisters’ encouragement and it was in the middle of the winter for them when this was happening and he had a sleigh and a horse. And so, he took her out in the winter with lots of rogues [?] for this ride in the sleigh and the horse knew the way and they got acquainted with each other as they went. And he suddenly realized to his embarrassment that the horse had turned in at the driveway of the girl that he had dated before. [Laughter] GH: The horse knew the way. NS: It seems like the sisters overruled the horse, though. GH: [Laughter] Yeah. NS: The horse had an opinion about this, too, I guess. [Laughter] EH: He made some kind of excuse, which I probably once knew, but no longer. 13 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department [Laughter] PK: Well, they got married anyway! [Laughter] EH: Yeah, right. [Laughter] GH: Dorris' maiden name was Adair and that's Ed's middle name. PK: Now, all this had something to do with the growth of acreage because that's where we started from. EH: Oh, yes, the Turner Farm. The original farm was in the Gulliver [?] School District. One of the things that - oh, what was it - the man we were just talking about produced is a card that there were one-room schools that sometimes got expanded to two rooms all across the county that served grades one through eight. And I just signed off this morning to a friend of mine that's helping me write my memoirs, because right where we're sitting here in the bottom center of that card, there's a picture of a building that ran from up here all the way back to the playground at the back down there that’s above Courtland Street, where I went to school from kindergarten through senior in high school and all in the same building. And so, and then it has pictures of several of these country schoolhouses on that same... GH: Yeah, but the reason your dad bought the Turner farm? EH: Yeah, oh, that's where we were going was that my mother was still teaching in high school. And so instead of us kids having to walk up the road half a mile to the Garver [?] School, which our neighbor kids did have to do because Dad bought the Turner Farm across the street, it was in the Hart District. And my mother was still teaching in Hart, so she could take us into Hart School and we could go to a single-grade classroom because he was paying taxes on that property. PK: How big was Turner Farm? EH: Turner Farm, I think - it’s been expanded some - but I think initially it was pretty much a standard ninety-acre quarter section. PK: So, all together then you had at that point maybe one hundred eighty acres or so? EH: Something in that neighborhood. And then they bought some other additional that was beyond that, too. NS: And maybe, you said before, maybe leased some other? EH: Huh? NS: You said before, maybe leased some other lands sometimes? EH: Oh, yeah, almost every year. For example, one year I can remember he’d leased land out in Elbridge Township in what had been the American Indian Reservation. Gretchen grew up in Lowell and Cobmoosa, who was a chief of one of the Indian nationalities, actually lived in Lowell in a regular house. She’ll correct me if I'm wrong. GH: [Laughter] EH: But then because the federal government decided that they should give these people some of their historical land, they made this Indian reservation; all of Elbridge Township, originally, was American 14 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department Indian. And so Cobmoosa decided that he should come up because he was a chief of his people, he should come up and live on that land. And his log house is now down in the Hart Historical District down here. But I can remember when it was still out in Elbridge Township and my dad had rented probably something like twenty acres across the street from it for budding. So, for about three weeks in August, we would take lunch and go over. By then, no one was living in the Cobmoosa house. But we would have our lunch over there and then go back to crawling up and down the aisles across the street. And then eventually they carefully took it apart and reconstructed it down here in the historical district. GH: Before you did budding in high school and all, your dad hired you kids to hang out in the orchards. EH: [Laughter] Oh, I knew she wanted me to tell this story. GH: [Laughter] EH: Child labor. GH: [Laughter] EH: And this is when Martha Ann and I and our neighbor kids - the Nickleson girl and a boy, we were roughly the same age - that played together. Dad had a cherry tree that was out in the orchard with lots of other cherry trees, but that bloomed about a week earlier than the others. And as soon as it would have fruit on it, the Cedar Waxwings would all come in to eat the cherries off the tree. So, my dad offered us a nickel a day - the four of us - if we would go out and play under these trees to scare the Cedar Waxwings away. So that is child labor laws [laughter] were being violated for a nickel a day. NS: What about the other… aside from the important job that you all did when you were kids, were the other people who worked for your dad and worked for the nursery… where did they come from? High Schoolers? EH: I hope Walter has lined up... because the house that Martha Ann and I were born in, I still own, but it’s kind of… my dad just pulled it out of the farm when it went over to the Rennhacks and eventually it has to get back into their hands. But I'm renting it currently to Tommy [?], who works at the La Fiesta restaurant and her brother now runs it or her father. But that family all came up in the summer to work on my dad's... on the nursery and the fruit farm for my dad. As did a, for example, this is sometimes forgotten, a white family from Alabama who were also part of this migration of people that went around picking crops and that white family whose name will come to me and should eventually, stayed here in Hart and of course, because they learned the nursery and fruit business, were doing some of the same things on their own. And that same thing was true with Tommy and her family and that family named her brother now inherited from her father, who was the original one who came up and worked seasonally, is down in the valley between the golf course and Polk Road and he keeps the place up beautifully. And so, we have that connection also with the history of Mexican ancestry people who have now settled here. And I think Walter has him on schedule to be a part of this. PK: Ed, a couple of people whom I interviewed, particularly Floyd Fox and Velo Burmeister, both of whom were in their mid-nineties when I interviewed them... 15 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EH: And Floyd is still around, I think. PK: Yes, he is. I understand he's still healthy, as a matter of fact. EH: That’s right. I go to Shelby Church and he's five years older than I am. PK: Still driving his own truck, as a matter of fact. EH: Yeah, right. PK: Well, each of them told me the succession of waves of pickers started, as you have already told us, with the kids in the family. EH: Uh huh. PK: And then they moved on to different categories. With the Latino pickers, they were all Mexicans to start with, were they not? EH: Yep. PK: Came in... EH: Well, no, some of them were Texicans, actually, that they were born in Texas, but of Mexican ancestry. PK: But they were of Mexican ancestry, not Honduran or Guatemalan or Puerto Rican. EH: No. PK: Can you give us an idea of the succession of categories of people who picked and otherwise worked on your family's acreage, starting with the family and then… NS: When you were a kid, did they hire people outside the family to work? EH: I think so. NS: Do you remember? PK: And who were they? I don't mean their names, but were they other Anglos or were they? EH: There was... I don't ever remember any black families. PK: Oh, blacks did not pick for you. As you know, they did for other families. EH: Uh huh. There was one black family and one black man, Gabe Crocket [?], and one black family, the Reeds [?], that lived in Hart when I was a small kid. But how they got here… they were just here. Oh, but I think the Reeds had to have probably come up from Muskegon and probably did start working. But my memory, because at one point they lived in the Garver School District and there were two girls - Fanny and I'm not sure I can remember their name - and i think two boys. But there was a time when they were living in the Garver School District and would walk past and further to the north because they would walk past our house and the Nichols [?] house to go up to Garver School. And Fanny had a great voice and was a wonderful singer. And Estelle, I think, Estelle was mentally challenged and she kept being left behind so she'd be much bigger than the other kids in her class, but Fanny, Mrs. Nichols [?] 16 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department would invite them to come into her house. She had a piano and she would get Fanny to sing. And I remember as small kids, they were somewhat older than we were. We would be fascinated by listening to her sing. GH: But they never worked in the orchards for your dad? EH: No, I don't think they ever worked for my dad, but they were here and Gabe had the house in Hart and I know right where it is, still. And he was a very short man. He probably was only five [foot] two [inches] or something like that. And he allowed himself to be the butt of people's jokes at the county fair. But I remember the men coming up to him and pinning prize bull or something on his collar and he would just smile and go on. PK: But he didn't work for you? EH: He didn't work for us. PK: You mentioned a family from Alabama. EH: Yeah. PK: They were white people. EH: They were white. PK: And you remember when that would have been? What decade, at least? EH: That would have been in the late 1930s or early 1940s. PK: Now, as you know, they were great, at least one, maybe two prisoner of war camps here for Germans. EH: There were. PK: And they worked for a lot of people. Did they work for you? EH: No, I don’t think they did. I remember walking by there on our way back and forth from school because one of them was just south of what is now Polk Road, which wasn’t then called Polk Road, I don’t remember what it was. But I do remember that they were there, but they didn't... I don't think Dad ever had any of them working on the farm. PK: Well, then was the Vasquez family the first of the Latino families who… EH: I think so, yes. PK: That would have been when? 1950s, perhaps, or? EH: Better ask Tommy or her brother. Let me think, it was earlier than that in the 1940s, probably. NS: During World War Two. EH: What? NS: During World War Two, the federal government had a program where they brought workers from Mexico directly. Sometimes they called them “braceros.” 17 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EH: Oh, yeah. NS: And they were mostly all men. They were supposed to be all men, not families. EH: Yes. NS: Do you remember them coming? EH: Not to Michigan, but I remember them coming to California and how they... NS: Were you in California? EH: Oh, the folk singer had this... John Denver had the song, I think… NS: Guthrie? EH: ...which would be later. NS: Guthrie, maybe? GH: Not John Denver. EH: Who was it? GH: Woody Guthrie? EH: Woody Guthrie. It was Woody that had this… PK: John Denver would be flattered to be compared to Woody Guthrie. EH: Yes, Woody Guthrie had this… oh, I thought I could sing the words to that song even about being forced to go back to Mexico. NS: Yeah, that continued for a while until 1964 for that program. EH: Yeah. NS: And then it ended, so yeah. PK: Did you help the Vasquez family get started in the restaurant business? They're so successful now that it's very interesting to a lot of people how they made the transition from migrant laborers to solid members of the commercial community here in Oceana County. Was your family instrumental in helping them make that transition? EH: Well, I don't remember any specific instances of it, but just the fact that they knew they’d always have employment on the nursery or the fruit farm. It gave them, I think, the stability to be able to develop their talents along that line and create their marvelous chips that are now probably even more the part of the business than the restaurant. [Unknown]: Slide past. I’ve got to use the restroom. NS: [Whispers] It’s okay. [Unknown]: Sorry about that. 18 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department NS: Sorry, so you mentioned some people who came to work from different places. EH: Uh huh. NS: And then sometimes high schoolers would come and you would go when you were in high school and when you were younger. How were those people recruited, especially who came from other places? How did they find out? Or at first, you know, like, they get in their car in Alabama and how do they end up at the Hawley’s? EH: I'm not sure I know, they just appeared! [Laughter] NS: Well, after a while, they must… they came back year after year. EH: Yeah. NS: Right? But if a family decided not to come back, then you needed more people to replace them. How would they… how would your dad or other family recruit people? EH: I think we would say to the ones already here, “do you know anybody else?” And they would then say, “well, yes, there’s so-and-so, and I'll tell them.” So, that's how that would happen. NS: Do you know what time of the year when they would arrive? Usually? EH: Usually, I think in June. I doubt that any arrived much earlier than that, but I would need to think about that more to be sure. A lot of them had a routine that would then eventually take them down to Florida to pick tomatoes after stopping in New York State to do something or other. So, it was a big circle, Texas, and maybe with the stuff in Missouri on the way to Michigan, I'm not sure about that but… it was Missouri or Iowa, but. PK: Did any of the… well, how many Mexican pickers did you have at one time at the maximum, do you think? It wasn’t just one family, I'm sure. EH: Oh, boy. I think John Hawley is the one that really could answer that better than I. PK: Do you happen to know, to remember...? EH: Once I finished high school, I was here so little. John was on the ground all the time, so he would be a better person to ask. PK: Do you recall whether any of them moved into supervisory positions, at least field bosses or managers or anything other than the pickers on the ground? I know that's fairly rare, but I do know of a case or two where somebody who started picking ended his career managing. Chico Longoria, for instance, who worked for the Fox’s for a long time, whose obituary appeared in the Herald Journal last year, was a conspicuous case. Are there any such people who worked for the Hawley’s? EH: Oh, well, the Vazquez’s, of course. PK: But were they in a managerial position for you or is it only after they left Hawley to go on their own? EH: Well, as I say, when I graduated from high school, which was 1941, I do not recall, but after that, I just wasn't around enough to be aware because I was going straight through school. 19 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department NS: After school, after you went to school in Chicago, too, then what did you do? EH: What? NS: After you went to the school in Chicago, then what was the rest of your life? EH: Well, the first thing that happened... NS: How did you end up back here in Hart? EH: The first thing that happened is that once the war was over and I no longer had this compulsion to keep going to school, I had in 1946, I had connections with what our denomination called the Congregational Christian Service Committee. And Jim Flindt, who was on the staff of the big congregational church in Madison, Wisconsin; Jim was also on the board of the Congregational Christian Service Committee. And the congregational churches in Great Britain - and we did have an international congregational organization - were completely closed down, their theological schools, during the war and with the bombing and everything going on. And the tradition had been that young people who were studying for the clergy in Great Britain would go into various inner-city programs to work with kids and youth and children, and that just completely shut down. So once the war was over and the seminarians were going back to school. [Cough] Well, I may need… well, all right. [Inaudible] They recruited seminary students from here to go over to Britain for a year and work in these places. [Cough] And Jim Flindt knew me from the Pilgrim Fellowship, which was the youth group of the congregation. [Cough] He asked me if I would like to go and I jumped at the chance to do something besides study. And so, in September of 1946, I got on the Queen Mary - which was still a one-class ship at that point because it had been a troop ship during the war - and went to Great Britain and wound up at the Crossway Central Mission in South London, near what is still called the “Elephant and Castle,” which is the name of a pub in Southwark. And the New Kent Road connects up with the Elephant and Castle and Crossway Mission was at New Kent Road. Bill Martin, W.B.J. Martin, who was a Welshman who had been working in London inner city in the height of the bombing over on the East Side and somehow got through all that. He was then the minister and that building after the old city missionary [?] had a tower that had three apartments in it… maybe two apartments. But anyway, Bill Martin and his wife, who is also an ordained minister, were on the one floor and the caretaker who lived on the top floor - the last name was Vassie (V-a-s-s-i-e) - and they would come to me and they had a spare room. So then, as it turned out, for two years I lived with the Vassies on the top floor. And so, there are lots of connections with that. I'm not sure how far we’re going in terms of Hawley’s Nursery now but... NS: Well, but then you were in London and then, for two years, and then… EH: Yeah, I was at Crossway Mission for one year, but stayed with the Vassies because I had been national president of the Pilgrim Fellowship, which was the youth organization for the congregational 20 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department churches in this country. And the Congregational Union of England and Wales had a youth division and decided they wanted to have something similar in Great Britain. So, they asked me to stay a second year and travel around to all the different counties and meet with the youth of the churches in those areas to help them form. That was the pattern of Pilgrim Fellowship. Each different confluence had its own organization so that was the connection there and was fantastic because… oh, and in between these two things was the Second World Conference of Christian Youth, which was held in Oslo, Norway. And I had been doing the work at the Crossway Mission and their work with the youth program really wasn't going to start, so I had that summer fairly free and because each of the denominations had people that would go to this Second World Conference of Christian Youth, and I was closer so, at least, I think it was easier for them to make me one of them because it wasn't going to cost as much to get me there from London as it was from New York City or California or someplace or Hawaii. And so, I did, I was able to spend two weeks there and again, these marvelous connections. And this is certainly a long way from where we started. The Congregational Churches Worldwide had the foresight to call a pre-Oslo conference, which was held at… there was a Congregational College at Cambridge University, and they got Congregationalists from all over the world to come together for a week there. And one of the people who came was Russell Chandran from the Church of South India, and he was from Bangalore. Russell and I not only got to know each other at the meeting in Cambridge, but when we got to Oslo, that program was divided up with small groups. And he and I wound up in the same group for two weeks in Oslo. So, we got to know each other quite well and he eventually came to do some additional study. He and his wife, Vicki, from South India, came to Chicago Theological Seminary, which was my seminary. By then, I was the minister of the interracial and bilingual church on the west side of Chicago and the… NS: What church in Chicago? EH: It was the Warren Avenue Congregational Church. It no longer exists, though. It merged with the Presbyterian Church on the next corner. And the building now is a Black Baptist Church and it’s still there. But that was another marvelous experience because… EH: Oh. NS: It's OK. EH: Is it okay? GH: Well, you've gotten far afield. NS: You find all kinds of things. PK: So, you went with the merger? EH: Yeah. GH: But you were in Chicago then, not Oberlin. PK: And Bruce, as you know, went with the congregational holdout. 21 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EH: Over to the church, yeah, there’s still a Continuing Congregational Church out in Grand Rapids, isn’t there? PK: Mayflower. EH: Mayflower, yeah. PK: One of my relatives went there, the rest of them stayed at Park [?]. I'm happy to tell you they still went together for Christmas. EH: Oh, good. [Laughter] Well, that’s amazing. PK: And we almost overlapped in London, apparently; I arrived in London in September 1949 and went to work for the United Press and stayed there until 1951. But you had already left by then, had you? EH: Yeah, but I came back in the summer of [nineteen] fifty-one for the Festival of Britain. PK: Oh, how wonderful! EH: And also, to direct a World Council of Churches work camp in Deptford south of the river and which was one of the stranger work camps anyplace because the minister of this church... PK: An inner-city slum work camp, huh? EH: Yeah, it was decided that the building should be restored. But they had once had a much bigger piece of land and had a graveyard outside. And way back in history, they had brought all the bones from the graves outside into the basement. And when the minister decided he wanted to restore the building, he had to get to the foundations and all these bones were down there. So, our work camp and the kids from Germany and Denmark, World Council of Churches people from all over, a German guy and I were co-directors of this, where our whole job was getting these bones out from around the foundations that had to be supported. PK: What did you do with the bones? EH: Nothing ever came of it, in terms of actually getting the building changed. PK: What did you do with the bones? Did you throw them in a pile? EH: No, we were reburying them, but away from the pillar, we had to get the pillars cleared so that they could be reinforced to hold up the rest of the building. GH: So, they're still there; the bones are just relocated? EH: They were the last I knew! But I have not kept up with that. [Laughter] EH: I don't follow bones around. PK: You know, there’s something that struck me: are we sort of freewheeling now or do you have a part of this you want to get back to? Because I think Ed and I are sort of going way past Oceana County. NS: Well, you've discovered new things now, connections that you didn't know before. 22 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department PK: Yeah, but I don't want to interfere with the core. NS: It doesn't have to follow a linear path, necessarily. I think that might be kind of hard for us to… PK: Well, I think Ed’s getting tired and I’m getting tired. NS: Yes, that could be. EH: Didn't Walter have other people that you're supposed to be interviewing lined up? NS: Yeah. I think… are there things you wanted to talk about that you didn't get to yet? Before you came, are there things you said, “Well, I'm going to…” because I don't want that to be missed out. EH: Well, let me look at my notes. I’ll tell you what I wrote down. NS: I don’t want him to leave not having talked about things he wanted to talk about. I doubt most people got to all of these questions. EH: This is pretty peripheral, but it's interesting how, again, things come together because Duane Robinson, who put this book together… I had to come up here to do a lot of interviewing and, of course, Duane, having been part of this branch from Seattle or West Seattle from our family, had come here knowing that his dad, Morris Robinson, was from here. And at that point, when he came, Ivan Robinson was still living and was on a farm just south of the farm that Martha Ann is still living on, and she and I grew up on kind of on top of the hill. And all of his family, Duane had talked to them and had listed by name in the book all of the Robinson family members that were living right in our neighborhood here in Oceana County. I broke the femur in my hip two summers ago and wound up in the Oceana County Medical Center. And there was a man there… actually, two people that relate to this and I'll get to the other one, maybe two. We’re a little more back to what we originally were aiming at anyway. And I discovered that one of them who was a patient then in the medical center was named Manley Robinson. And he and I would eat lunch together while I was in there rehabbing from my hip. And I eventually thought that I'd better go look at this book. And sure enough, here was Manley’s name and Ivan… Duane had interviewed Ivan and he listed all his brothers and who they were and where they were. So, again, I copied out of this book that page where Manley’s name appeared and I was able to produce it for him at the medical center. And he was so pleased and amazed he actually had his name in print. PK: [Laughter] That’s great. EH: He’s gone now, too. But, I’m glad before he went, he knew that he was remembered. GH: Have you interviewed any of the families that are here now that worked in the orchards who came up from Texas? PK: I decided when Andy Schlewitz came up and interviewed a number of people who worked in the orchards, that I would carve out something. At that time, nobody else was doing that, they were interviewing the growers. So, I have not interviewed any pickers. GH: When we were married in ‘58, the Hawley’s were still tapping all those old - well, now they're really old - maple trees along 72nd Avenue and to make maple syrup. 23 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department PK: Oh! GH: And so those trees… PK: Well, those are sugar maples then? GH: Uh huh, those are all sugar maples. PK: That's a pretty big industry in Oceana County. GH: And they had, what was it called where you boiled the… EH: An arch is what we called it. GH: An arch. And they had the big pans that are about twice the size of this table. And they’d use old... PK: That’s where they boiled the sap down? EH: Yeah, right. GH: They’d use old wood from the orchards, trees that were cut down, to keep the fires going. And Ed was showing me this arch where the syrup was... EH: We’d have the big pan... PK: So, your family was in that business, too, then. EH: Well, it wasn’t a business. We were just doing it for ourselves. PK: Oh! EH: Yeah. NS: Home use. PK: You didn't put your label on…? EH and GH: No, no. EH: No, it was all canned by my mother and we… PK: I wondered where maple syrup came from. GH: It takes a lot of sap to make the maple syrup. And those trees are still there, but no longer tapped. But it was in that arch that you presented me with this engagement ring. EH: Oh, that’s right! GH: And I didn't fall into the fire. [Laughter] It was a great surprise. PK: How many gallons of sap… [Inaudible] [Laughter]. GH: I don’t know. Yes, but besides that, did your mother can a lot of fruit or not? EH: Yes, we had that whole basement… well, you've been down in the basement. 24 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department GH: Oh, that’s right. EH: Remember, we had all those cupboards of things she’d canned that would be used during the winter. NS: But when you were a kid, she still worked at the school? EH: Well, not too long. NS: Just a little? EH: Long enough to get us established going there. But I think by the time I was in second grade, she had stopped teaching and was just homemaking, but we were still going. And of course, often we would walk to town to school and walk back on the railroad tracks. And that was always a challenge to try to walk on the rail and not fall off as we were walking home from school. GH: The tracks that are now the Rail Trail? EH: The tracks that are now the Rail Trail. GH: Okay. PK: Which run right through what I think of as the Rennhack... EH: What? PK: The Rail Trail runs right through the… what I have always thought of as the Rennhack orchards, right? EH: Uh huh. GH: Yeah, those were the Hawley… PK: Which were the Hawley orchards. GH: Uh huh. Those were the Hawley orchards. PK: Your niece is married to a Rennhack? Or is her maiden name Rennhack? EH: No, that’s her married name. PK: She's a Hawley who married a Rennhack? EH: No, she’s a Piegols. Because she’s my sister Martha Ann Piegols… Martha Ann Hawley Piegols’ daughter. So, her original name was Piegols and now it's Rennhack. PK: May I drop your name the next time I'm there? GH: Absolutely! [Laughter] EH: Well, certainly. PK: They're wonderful people. EH: Yeah, we agree. 25 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department PK: I’m all done; are you all done? NS: We can be; it's kind of up to you. I could ask you, frankly, I could sit here and ask you both questions all day. [Laughter] NS: All day. But I think that, you know, there's a limit to what you can... I could think of more and more. It's up to you. GH: I remember something that has to do tangentially with the orchards and apparently what they produced and financially. And that is that when we went to East Africa with our World Board and I had a baby three months after we got into Tanzania, they had to... they flew over to visit their new granddaughter. And I remember Monroe Hawley saying that he did that because he had a good apple crop. So that was an apple trip financed by the apple crop. And then when we moved up six years later to Nairobi, they decided to come again and he said that was a plum trip. EH: Oh, that's right. I had forgotten that! [Laughter] PK: Did you hear echoes of that rhythm from other families? I'll give you an example, but I'm wondering if… well, let me tell you the example and you can tell me whether you have other examples. I interviewed Barbara Bull and Barbara Bull, as you know, is an alumna of Mount Holyoke College. Her younger sister is an alumna of I don't know what, but at any rate, it’s not one of the seven sisters. And I said to Barbara, I said, “your sister is a brilliant pediatrician, I believe. Now, how come you went to Mount Holyoke and she went to some state school?” And Barbara's answer, just like that, was: “because we had a very good cherry crop the year I went to college.” And you're echoing that. GH: Uh huh. PK: Do you find that with other picker families, excuse me, other grower families, too? That, of course, your income is so totally dependent on the weather and other things you can't control that there must be an enormous variation from year to year. EH: Yeah. PK: Whether you can go to East Africa or wherever. GH: Yes, they make two trips over. He also went to horticultural meetings in England - Monroe did. PK: And were those on the years that there were good crops? GH: I expect they would have been, but I don't know. And the horticulturalist from England that he met there came and visited the Hawley Nurseries here. PK: Really? GH: In fact, you're still in touch... EH: Well, Duane is, anyway, with one of the families because they’ve had kids come over and work on the farm. The man that Dad knew was the editor of a gardener magazine in England. Thought I would have the name of it come to mind, but it didn't. And so, I think he had come to the States first and 26 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department somehow met Dad at a meeting. And then they got to corresponding and so that got quite to be back and forth and went on to the next generation. That's the son of the man that my Dad knew that Joann keeps in touch with and who we've been over to visit and had their kids come over or a kid come over and spend the summer working on the farm. GH: So, there's an international exchange that goes on. PK: I thought I was all done, but I guess I'm not because each of you and Gretchen have just touched on something that surprised me very much. I’m, as you know, I'm only a summer person here, but I was brought up on the shore of Lake Michigan in Ottawa County at Port Sheldon. And I expected when I bought my cottage thirty-two years ago, and I expected when I bought it, that the citizens of Oceana County would be people whose worlds were very small, very circumscribed by just the local environment. And I was surprised the very first year and have been surprised ever since repeatedly by the breadth of connections in the world of people in Oceana County. And do you think… have you just told me what the answer to this dilemma in my mind is? That it's because of commercial and agricultural missions and visits, do you think that’s what really is essentially behind it? GH: And going to conferences over in England and all. And I remember Monroe saying none of the apple varieties in England were what he grew here. They were all different. PK: Well, you probably noticed that there is an unusual - I think it's unusually high - student exchange between families in Oceana County and families abroad. Is this part of… do you think that this mood for wanting such exchanges was set by these earlier...? GH: I don't know. PK: And of course, I don't know whether it's higher than it is in other countries in Michigan now, because I left Michigan when I was sixteen years old and didn't come back until I was seventy, so… [laughter]. GH: Oh, my. PK: I don’t know what’s happened in the meantime. GH: I remember when - I don't remember the year, but - when the cherry pickers first… the picking machines first came in, that Monroe, very excitingly, had us watch how they operated. EH: The shakers. GH: The shakers... that picked all the cherries at once. Not the sweets, they still had to pick the sweets by hand. Is that right? EH: Yeah. GH: But the tarts, they could use the shakers and they’d come down in a curtain of red down to a canvas. NS: Was he happy with how it worked? 27 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department GH: Well, the old orchards, when the trees would be shaking, the old branches would go flying. You had to be careful not to get hit. But now they're planting the orchards and with shakers in mind because that's what they use. And so, you don't have the old twigs hitting you on the head when they use them. And of course, the trees now are much shorter than they were. And they had three-legged ladders that the pickers used. And you can still see some of those around because they could fit under the tree. They had the regular ladder with a third leg. PK: Are those sweet cherries still picked by hand? Even now? GH: I don't know, are they? EH: I think so, but I'm not sure about that. GH: Well, during the last few years, didn't you and your sister have to pick cherries and leave the stems on because he got more money for them if they were on the stem? EH: Yeah, that's true. GH: Yeah. NS: I guess one of the questions that was on there, too, that some of what you had said does remind me of, I wonder if we might get to it a little bit, is your dad and some of the other people went to meet with other horticulturalists, maybe trade varieties or talk about different techniques or even find out about the cherry picker machine shaker thing. Did they participate in different organizations that were for nurserymen or growers or farmers? EH: There’s a Michigan Horticultural Society that meets every December and usually in Grand Rapids, I think, maybe in other places. And Dad was always active in that. And he and my mother would plan to go down to Grand Rapids. We had, well, my sister, Ruthie, was down there anyway, so they had a place to stay. And they would spend those three days in Grand Rapids for the Horticultural Society meeting. And Dad was the one who went to the meetings, and my mother and Ruthie did whatever they wanted to do. I'm going to mention one more thing that's on my list, and it's not really very direct, but we would... because the nursery actually had a southern branch that my uncle, Ed - all of his side of the family called him Harry, I never quite figured out why - he was Uncle Ed to all of us, but he was Grandfather Harry on that side. But anyway, his wife, I was a little embarrassed when we would go down because Uncle Ed would have some areas for budding patches and we would go down to spend maybe four or five days in his budding patches. And it was always an adventure because he’d put us all in the back of the truck and, of course, no seatbelts or anything and then drive madly down these country roads to where we were going to be working that day. PK: Where was that? In southern Michigan? EH: Fennville. PK: Oh. EH: He, actually, his... PK: You mentioned Ganges. 28 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EH: Well, originally Ganges is where our family came from. PK: That's right on the lake, isn’t it? EH: Right on the lake, that's right. In fact, Dad showed me the house once that I think I remember correctly. There was a river or big creek or something that empties into Lake Michigan and just on the south side of that creek is the house he said is the family house, but I don't know if I could go back and find it. PK: I hope that house is still in the family because lakefront property at that latitude is worth an awful lot of money. [Laughter] EH: We have kind of shirttail relatives who live in a house in Douglas County that is south of where the road got washed out many, many years ago. But they don’t have lakeshore property, but they are part of a common area of homes that do have access to Lake Michigan. And they're trying to sell their house now, and even though the lake is so high and there's so much erosion, just the fact that they're hoping to visit us next month. And he's a very skilled jazz musician. PK: Oh, wonderful. EH: But they're trying to sell their house and it's tied to the fact that there is this lake access, even though it's down a lot of steps to get there. NS: So, what you wanted to tell us about going to the farm in Fennville? EH: Oh, yeah. The connection is that Uncle Ed's wife was a Plummer - her family name was Plummer. And I didn't know that until later. I had stayed with her, but what her maiden name was never came up. And when I finally learned it, I realized that I lived in a co-op house at Michigan State and one of the other members of that co-op house was also a Plummer and probably we had some kind of an indirect connection there with the two families. But then Charlie Spencer was [inaudible] but Uncle Ed's grandson still was when he was living. And he died maybe fifteen years ago, so fairly recently, and his second wife had land on the west side of Fennville. The train to Grand Rapids goes through his land, basically, by Fennville. And so, he had that connection and we had stopped to see him, at that time we were in Chicago and driving back and forth and stopped to see Charlie. He always wanted me to meet his wife's daughter, Ginny, who we would never quite stay long enough. He’d tell her to come. But she's the one now we’re going to be meeting on the Fifth of July, when they head up to a jazz event up in Leelanau County and they’ll come by to see us. PK: Excuse me, see you later. NS: Yes, I think we might be wrapping this up here. EH: Yeah, well… NS: I’ve tired you… we’ve tired you both out, I think maybe. [Laughter] Thank you. GH: ...quite far afield. 29 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EH: Oh, I did… I copied out and these are from the book and not the memorial society. This page and a little bit here are the Hawley… and there was one strange… I may try to talk to Walter about this, because it gives my grandmother's maiden name as Render. NS: Mm hmm. EH: But it was actually Bender. NS: Oh, it's not correct. EH: So, somebody couldn’t read somebody’s writing, obviously. NS: That happens sometimes. EH: In fact, it goes on here later to talk about her brother, Jim, and calls his name Bender. GH: Are you leaving that with her? EH: No. NS: Well, let's go over to the place where they have the scanning machine. EH: Okay. NS: And we can talk to the woman who might know about the copyright thing you said earlier and see what they have to say. EH: Okay. NS: I don't know, but I'm going to make sure I'm not supposed to say anything at the end. NS: Thank you both for your time. I’m supposed to say… GH: He's so excited about doing this. NS: Oh, thank you. I'm supposed to say, officially, this concludes the interview. EH: Okay. 30 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a8c8a7bd816438fe21727bff5eccef2b.mp3 f25b14434abd191b9ea0af332a1f4d17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oceana County Migrant Labor History Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell-Weiss, Melanie Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Growing Community: A Century of Migration in Oceana County." This project was a collaboration between El Centro Hispano de Oceana, the Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society, and Grand Valley State University funded by a Common Heritage grant from the United States National Endowment for the Humanities. The materials in this collection document the history of communities in Hart, Shelby, and Walkerville and explore themes of migration, labor, religion, family, belonging, national and cultural identities, regional, national, and international connections, and citizenship. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceana County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource El Centro Hispano de Oceana; Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Image Sound recording Language A language of the resource eng spa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Shelby (Mich.) Farms Farmers Migrant agricultural laborers Hispanic Americans Account books Diaries Oral history Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06_Hawley_Edward_and_Gretchen Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hawley, Edward Hawley, Gretchen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-18 Title A name given to the resource Hawley, Edward and Gretchen (audio interview and transcript) Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Edward A. Hawley and Gretchen Hawley. Interviewed by Nora Salas and Paul Kutsche on June 18, 2016 in Hart, Michigan. English language. Edward Adair Hawley was born in Hart Township, Michigan in 1923. He graduated from Hart High School in 1941, followed by Michigan State University in 1944, and a joint degree from Chicago Theological Seminary and the University of Chicago in 1949. Edward married his wife, Gretchen Hahn Hawley, in 1958 and was a part of the family business known as Hawley Nursery, which played an important role in the agricultural heritage of Oceana County and was responsible for producing a high percentage of all the fruit trees in the county and the west shore of Lake Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Salas, Nora (interviewer) Kutsche, Paul (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Farms Farmers Fruit growers Nursery growers Michigan State University Chicago Theological Seminary University of Chicago Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8de518680720f73b32a93ce6bd9dc291.mp4 452adf839826a8c6f61e129da18f9abd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/748b59d1ec75a01f8dc07b8b8022acd7.pdf dc8f86aa77762e105228fda1e8559f49 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Richard Hawley (33:22) Background information (00:10)         Born in Michigan in 1932 (00:12) He lived with his grandparents who farmed (00:20) He went to live with his mother in Traverse City, Michigan, in 1937. (00:50) He then moved to Kalamazoo, Michigan, where he attended school until 11 grade. He then dropped out and joined the Air Force at age 17. (approx. 1949) (1:10) He picked the Air Force over the Army. (1:46) He decided to enlist due to his fear of eventually being drafted. (2:06) During his childhood he paid close attention to the conflicts in Europe and in the Pacific. (2:30) He had family in the armed forces. (2:48) th Basic training (3:15)  For basic training he was sent to Lackland Field in San Antonio Texas. (3:16)     Basic lasted 12 weeks and consisted of shooting, marching, and learning discipline. (3:20) He was able to adjust to the discipline but other men had more difficulty. (3:40) He attended basic in January of 1950. (4:30) During basic, Richard was given aptitude tests. He was originally assigned to engineering but later became a welder for aircrafts. (4:58) He was next sent to Selfridge Michigan where he worked as a welder on maintenance. (5:34) He was in Selfridge Michigan for approx. 6 months. (6:06) He was in Selfridge Michigan at the beginning of Korean War in June of 1950. Most of the soldiers were “fired up” about this news. (6:32) He spent 19 weeks at a welding school before being assigned to Selfridge. (7:27) Richard Volunteered to serve in the Far East. He was hoping to work in Japan but instead was sent to Korea. (7:48)      Service in Korea (8:14)     He sailed on a troop carrier to Japan and then was flown to from Japan to Korea. (8:16) The voyage to Yokohama, Japan, took 9 days in spite encountering 2 typhoons. (9:38) He was stationed in K-2 (10:15) Bombers primarily flew missions out of this air field. (10:38) �     He worked on aircrafts as well as on the runways, particularly on the runway planking. (10:54) The pressure of a heavy aircraft was what did most of the wear on the runway. (11:48) Every night K-2 came under fire. (12:05) The Air field was hit about twice a week by aircraft. (12:44) K-2 was located about 150 miles from the front lines at the time of Richards’s service. (13:23) Life in Korea (13:42)                   At K-2 the men lived in tents. The men were often cold and wet with oil heaters used for warmth. There were about 8 beds in a tent. (13:45) There was a mess hall for food. (14:20) There were many Koreans working on the bases, one of whom Richard taught how to weld. (14:45) Richard picked up pieces of Korean as well as Chinese during his service in the Far East. (15:23) Korean soldiers were used to guard the base as well. (16:04) There were about 200-300 aircraft stationed at K-2. (16:24) Richard spoke often to the pilots and the officers and as a result had a good perception of what they were doing. (17:11) Several air craft where lost a day at K-2. (17:56) Some pilots had shot down 20-30 MIG fighters. The pilots often thought that the MIG pilots were Chinese because the North Koreans were not as good at maneuvers. They did not think they were Russian. (18:29) For R and R the men at K-2 often went to Japan. During this time most men went to bars. (19:00) Richard thinks that most of the Koreans were surprisingly kind to the U.S. soldiers. He thinks this in spite of being hit by a jeep by a Korean and being out of service for 1 week as a result. (19:52) Most men Richard worked under were career officers and mostly disciplined. (22:26) He spent 1 year in Korea (approx 1950-1951). (23:06) The base had trouble with crime. One soldier sold his truck 3 different times. (24:00) Richard used the radio to inform himself on the state of the Korean War. (24:34) He thought that the reason for the war was to protect South Korea not to stop Communism from spreading. (25:30) Men were constantly being cycled out. This, however, led to trouble with training new men because too many experienced soldiers would leave at one time. (25:49) He was very anxious to return home. When he returned home he was taken by boat. (27:49) Service in the U.S. (approx. 1951-1953) (28:17)   After returning to the U.S. Richard continued his work as a welder and maintenance man. (28:34) He left the military 4 months early in approx. 1953. (29:12) �Life after Service (29:40)    Richard worked as a welder after service. He did many contracts for different (29:48) He believes that the military gave him much more experience and a different perspective of the world. (30:25) After Korea he arrived in San Francisco, California. He then took a train to Michigan but it ran in to trouble when the track was damaged due to an earthquake. (31:39) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hawley, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hawley, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Hawley, born in Michigan in 1932, served in the U.S. Air Force from 1949-1953 in both the U.S. and Korea during the Korean Conflict. During his service in Korea, Richard worked as a welder and maintenance man at the K-2 air base, mainly repairing runways and aircraft. After returning to the U.S. he continued his job as a welder in Selfridge Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Air Force Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-26 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HawleyR0343V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives