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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Fred Guild
World War II
1 hour 50 minutes 37 seconds
(00:00:11) Early Life
-Born in Gratiot County, Michigan on October 2, 1925
-Grew up in Gratiot County
-Attended a one room, one teacher country school through the eighth grade
-16 years old when he left school
-Went to work for a company that made house trailers
-Father did a lot of jobs to supplement the family farm during the Great Depression
-Had a 25 acre farm
-Had six siblings
-Fred and his siblings helped on the farm
-They were able to keep the farm through the Great Depression
(00:02:29) Start of the War
-Heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor on his father's radio
-Kept up with the news of the fighting in Europe and Asia prior to Pearl Harbor
-Didn't think the United States would get involved
-Knew where Pearl Harbor was and why it was significant
-War industry cropped up in the Saginaw area of the state
-Mother went to work in a carbine factory
-The company he worked for did not switch over to producing war goods
-Wages were frozen though which led to Fred quitting
-One brother went to work at one of the relocation centers for Japanese-American
civilians
-Followed his brother out west to do the same thing, but couldn't find him
-Hopped trains back to Chicago then hitchhiked back to Michigan
-Prior to enlisting he traveled around the country
-On one occasion he spent nine days in jail in Texas for hitchhiking
-Worked in Texas and New Mexico
(00:08:59) Enlisting in the Army
-Returned to Michigan and enlisted in the Army when he was only 17 years old
-Had to tried to enlist in the Navy and the Marines when he was working in
Florida
-Denied because he didn't have his parents' permission
-Enlisted in July 1943 and reported for duty in August 1943
(00:11:24) Basic Training
-Reported to Fort Custer, Michigan in August 1943
-Sent to Camp Wolters, Texas for basic training
-Received infantry training at Camp Wolters on top of basic training
-Learned about rifles, mortars, and antitank guns
-37mm antitank gun was effective against Japanese tanks

�-57mm antitank gun was effective against German tanks
-Received a lot of physical training and went on long marches
-Some marches were twenty miles long and they didn't get back to camp until
midnight
-Even later in the summer it was hot in Texas
-Men passed out due to the heat
-Had to take salt tablets to help combat passing out
-High emphasis on discipline and following orders
-If you made a mistake, or failed to follow orders you were punished
-Usually punished with cleaning toilets or other menial duties like that
-He adjusted well to the Army and enjoyed it
-Wasn't bothered by taking orders and was in good shape when he went in
-Stayed in Texas until December 1943
-Got passes on the weekends to go to Mineral Wells, Texas
-Got a tattoo even though he wasn't allowed to
-This was because, as a soldier, he was government property
-Got a Native American style mohawk even though that wasn't regulation either
(00:17:37) Airborne Training
-Signed up for Airborne Training
-Had to watch an introductory video before committing to Airborne Training
-Showed recruits subjected to intense physical training and tough
instructors
-Even with that information he decided to stay in
-Thought it would be an interesting experience jumping out of planes
-Sent to Fort Benning, Georgia
-First couple weeks were spent doing eight hours a day of physical training
-Had to run almost all the time
-Crawled on infiltration courses
-Crawling under barbed wire, through mud, while live rounds were fired over
your head
-Also had fake explosives set off next to you to make it even more realistic
-He was assigned to a training platoon
-Half of the men did not complete the training
-Either washed out or were failed out of the program
-Learned about how to use a parachute and how to properly jump out of a plane
-Started out by jumping out of a 35 foot tower and sliding down a cable
-Learned how to pack his main parachute and the reserve parachute
-Had to do "penalty push ups" at random
-Went up in a 250 foot high tower and slid down a cable while wearing a parachute
-Learned how to land properly so you didn't break your legs
-The 35 foot tower was designed to look like a C-47 transport
-Introduction to the feeling of getting yanked out of a plane
-Did his first training jump at 2,200 feet
-He was the first man out of the plane
-It went well
-Parachute was hooked to line that opened the chute when you left the plane

�-This was so you didn't have to worry about when to open your chute
-Did 16 jumps during training because he enjoyed them so much
-Only needed five jumps (four in the day and one night) to get your paratrooper
wings
-After the initial part of Airborne Training he was assigned to the Demolitions School
-Only did it for a week then quit
-Convinced to stay in and got placed with a different class
-Learned all about explosives
-Different types, how to set them up, and the actual chemistry involved
-Four week course
-Didn't like the men he trained with in the first class
-Mostly men from cities
-In the second class most of the men were from the country and he enjoyed their
company
-Found them to be better soldiers
-Completed Demolition School in early May 1944
(00:30:18) Deployment to the European Theatre
-Left out of New York on the RMS Queen Elizabeth
-500 nurses and 18,000 troops aboard
-Spent most of his time in the brig because of a minor disciplinary issue
-Wanted to go to the brig so he could have some time to himself
-Brig wasn't crowded
-Talked with British soldiers and learned about England and their currency
-Had escorts to a certain point then sailed alone
(00:32:58) Stationed in England
-Arrived in Glasgow, Scotland then took a smaller boat to Liverpool, England
-Sent to Wiltshire County, England where the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment had its
camps
-Part of the 101st Airborne Division
-E Company of the 506th made famous by the TV miniseries Band of Brothers
-Joined the 506th just prior to D-Day, but he did not participate in the jump into
France
-Had a lot of free time in England
-Went into London
-Experienced the German buzz bombs being launched into London
-One hit so close to his location it knocked plaster off the ceiling
-Saw Buckingham Palace
-Didn't hear too much about D-Day when it initially happened
-Heard more about the fighting in France after the men returned in July
-He was assigned to a demolition platoon in Regimental HQ Company of the 506th
-30 men in his platoon
-Heard stories from the veterans about the fighting they experienced in
France
-Went on marches at night and prepared for the next major operation
-Function of the demolition platoon was regular infantry duty and demolition duty
-This meant finding German positions and supplies and destroying those things

�-Later in the summer of 1944 they prepared for Operation Market Garden
-Allied invasion and liberation of the Netherlands
-Learned about what his unit's duty would be once they got on the ground
-Establish a position, scout the area, and destroy German positions and
supplies
-Trained with magnetic anti-armor explosives
-Had to get under a tank and stick the explosive to the underbelly of the tank
-Trained how to disarm and dispose of German booby traps and explosives
-Objective was to capture a bridge in the Netherlands
-In the case of the 506th it was the bridge at Zon
(00:41:50) Operation Market Garden-Dropping into Holland
-On the morning of Sunday September 17, 1944 they took off from England
-It took four hours to get to the Netherlands
-Remembers they changed directions multiple times
-Men had to urinate in a bucket and the bucket got knocked over
-He made the jump without a reserve chute because he didn't want the extra weight
-Carried ammunition, supplies, explosives, grenades, rations, and his rifle into battle
-Flew in formation with other planes
-Once they were over the Netherlands his plane took three direct hits from antiaircraft fire
-Could see flames from one of the engines going past the door
-All 12 paratroopers and their supplies got off the plane successfully
-Plane eventually crashed and burned
-They landed ten miles from their drop zone
-The group of 12 men got separated from each other and had to regroup
-Fred found three other men from his group and linked up with them
-He landed in a tree and lost some of his gear
-Remembers the sky being lit up with antiaircraft fire
(00:50:48) Operation Market Garden-Battle
-Eventually made their way to Zon only to find the Germans had already destroyed the
bridge
-Stayed there for the night
-Moved with the bulk of the 506th to the city of Eindhoven
-Constantly had to deal with Germans capturing bridges and major portions of the
highway
-They would secure one area only to lose another area to the Germans
-Went on patrols and launched assaults against the Germans until a stable line formed
-Instructed not to take prisoners of war
-Did not have the resources or the manpower to deal with prisoners
-Ordered to fight until the Germans retreated or were all dead
-Went on artillery scouting missions
-Got incredibly close to German positions
-Relayed the coordinates to a rear position with a radio
-Radio called in the coordinates to mortar teams further in the rear
-After the British got cut off in Arnhem the 506th helped get the British out of the area
-Didn't see many German tanks or other vehicles in the area they operated in
-Too many dikes

�-Germans cut off the only highway [bridge] that led into Arnhem
-Meant the British had to be pulled out on boats
-Operation was supposed to take three days
-Wound up fighting in the Netherlands until late November 1944
(00:59:26) Battle of the Bulge
-Pulled back to an old French military base near Mourmelon, France
-Only there a couple weeks before the Battle of the Bulge began
-Did not get substantial supplies or replacements before fighting in the Bulge
-Knew that at least three men from his platoon had been killed in
Eindhoven
-On December 16, 1944 the Germans launched their offensive beginning the Battle of the
Bulge
-Received orders to go to Bastogne, Belgium
-He was supposed to get a tooth taken care of, but got sent to the front anyway
-Took trucks up to Bastogne
-It was cold and they didn't have proper winter clothing
-Saw a lot of American troops going away from Bastogne as they went toward it
-Mission was to get into Bastogne and its surrounding area and defend it
-Important crossroads
-They stayed outside the town and linked up with elements of the 705th Tank Destroyer
Battalion
-Slept in foxholes and bomb craters
-Remembers one German plane harassed their position
-Low enough that Fred could hear the bomb release mechanism
-The weather was bad and they couldn't get resupplied
-Germans attacked them on the ground
-Bastogne was effectively surrounded
-Germans gave them two options: surrender or be wiped out
-They shared ammunition and any supplies that they could scavenge
-Hunted German tanks around Bastogne with tank destroyers from the 705th Tank
Destroyers
-Lost two tank destroyers on the first mission
-The German tank they went up against was on the high ground
-Rode on the tank destroyers when they were on the move
-Got off when the Germans shelled them
-Officer commanding the tank destroyers was incompetent
-During the Siege of Bastogne around 40 German tanks were destroyed
-On December 26, 1944 General Patton's Third Army broke the siege and they were
saved
-By the end of the Battle of the Bulge approximately 75% of Bastogne was destroyed
-In late January 1945 they moved into the Alsace-Lorraine Province of France then
Haguenau
(01:18:25) Advance into Germany
-Encountered pockets of German resistance as they advanced into Germany in spring
1945
-Captured Berchtesgaden, Germany in early May 1945

�-Found a lot of champagne
-Captured a lot of German vehicles and used them to their advantage
-At the end of the war groups of German soldiers surrendered as soon as they saw U.S.
troops
-Looked tired and hungry
-Mix of young men, young boys, and old men
-Even captured some women serving as clerks for the Luftwaffe
-After they crossed the Rhine River in spring they encountered limited resistance
-They were following other infantry units that were spearheading the advance
-Got into Austria a few days before Germany surrendered
-He went up a mountain in a cable car and went skiing
-By that time the war was effectively over
(01:22:20) End of the War &amp; Occupation Duty
-They were in Zell am See, Austria when Germany surrendered May 8, 1945
-Stayed in Austria until August 1945
-Went to Joigny, France after Austria
-He left Europe by way of Antwerp, Belgium in December 1945
-Men with enough points could go home, or volunteer for more occupation duty
-Men without enough points were sent to Berlin to join another unit for
occupation duty
-Needed 85 points to go home and be discharged
-Awarded based on rank, length of service, combat seen, and dependents
-By December 1945 Fred had enough points and was ready to go home
-While in Germany and Austria he didn't see too many German or Austrian civilians
-Quartered in a house in Austria
-Family was not allowed to be in the house during the day, but could be at night
-Went elk hunting in Austria and shared the meat with the civilians
-Did that until a hunting party killed a farmer's cow and they were forbidden to
hunt
-Scavenged for extra food because they weren't getting enough rations
-Captured an SS officer who was holed up in a resort
-He had no intention of fighting, but didn't want to be captured
-Carried a pistol with him whenever he went into town because he felt defenseless
without one
-Saw displaced persons and refugees
-Remembers seeing the Landsberg Concentration Camp
-Let the prisoners go because they pitied them
-Found out many of them were not healthy enough to be on their own
-Learned that those healthy enough wanted to exact revenge on their German
tormentors
-Had to collect the prisoners and bring them back to the camp for their own safety
-Saddened the GIs, but they understood the practicality of that decision
-Learned more about the death camps and concentration camps after the war was over
-When he was at Joigny, France he got to see Paris and Marseilles
-Also got to visit his brother who was at a camp near Paris
(01:32:19) Coming Home &amp; End of Service

�-The voyage home was rough
-Hit a lot of storms
-One day they were only going one mile per hour
-Also rough because he sailed home on a Victory Ship
-Experienced 40 foot waves
-Ship almost capsized multiple times
-Took 12 days to get back to the United States
-Pulled into New York Harbor
-Sent to a camp near New York City
-Some men went into New York for New Year's Eve, but he just wanted to sleep
-Sent to Fort Sheridan, Illinois and was discharged in January 1946
(01:35:45) Life after the War &amp; Serving with the 82nd Airborne Division
-Visited his family
-Moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan and got a job at Kelvinator
-Became bored with civilian life and reenlisted in the Army into the 82nd Airborne
Division
-Given a 90 day delay en route before reporting to Fort Bragg, North Carolina
-During that time met and married his wife
-Assigned to G Company of the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
-Lived off base with his wife
-Worked in the offices in Fort Bragg
-Stayed in the 82nd from April 1946 until October 1946
-Got sick with tuberculosis in July 1946
-Stayed in the Army for as long as he could
-In and out of hospitals for two years due to TB
-Got his high school degree through Alma High School
-Able to test out of all the classes necessary to graduate
-Went to Ferris State University
-Got a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry and Teaching
-Worked as a teacher for one semester then resigned
-Four years after that he got a job as a principal in Mecosta Schools
-Did that for a semester and planned on continuing with the job the year after that
-Got offered a job for Lear Siegler and decided to do that instead of be a principal
-Worked for them for 33 years
-Gave presentations at Grand Valley State University on chemistry
(01:46:06) Reflections on Service
-Experience with explosives in the Army helped him with learning about chemistry in
college
-Enjoyed learning to work with people
-Taught him to be fair and honest when working with people
Interview ends at 01:48:38

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                <text>Fred Guild was born on October 2, 1925 in Gratiot County, Michigan. He enlisted in the Army in July 1943 and reported for duty at Fort Custer, Michigan on August 1943. He received basic training and infantry training at Camp Wolters, Texas until December 1943. He volunteered for Airborne Training and received that training and demolition training at Fort Benning, Georgia. He was deployed to the European Theatre in May 1944 and arrived in England prior to D-Day. He was assigned to a demolition platoon of the Regimental Headquarters Company of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. He trained in England with the 506th through the summer of 1944. He participated in Operation Market Garden and the Battle of the Bulge. In April 1945 they moved through Germany and captured Berchtesgaden and were in Zell am See, Austria from May 1945 to August 1945. He stayed in Joigny, France until December 1945 then returned to the U.S. from Antwerp, Belgium. He was discharged in January 1946 at Fort Sheridan, Illinois. He briefly served with the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, North Carolina from April 1946 to October 1946.</text>
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nl &#13;
de</text>
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            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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            <description>An account of the resource</description>
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                <text>One leaf from Opera by Episcopus Parisiensis Guillermus Alvernus. Edited by Petrus Danhauser and printed in Nuremberg by Georg Stuchs after March 31, 1496. [GW 11862; ISTC ig00708000]</text>
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            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
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            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
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            <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
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            <description>An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource</description>
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            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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            <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
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            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
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                    <text>ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
FELIX GULLICK
Born: Haskell, Oklahoma
Resides: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither and Louis Moore
Grand Valley State University History Dept.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 11, 2009
Interviewer: ―Mr. Gullick, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself? To
begin with, where and when you were born?”
I was born in Oklahoma in a little town they call Haskell. It was March 12, 1922. My
mother and dad lived there about four years and we moved to Kansas. At that time, if
you had more than one child, you had to pay five bucks for each kid to go to school, but
they had free school in Kansas, so my family all moved to Kansas. :55 That’s where I
grew up. I was about four years old when we moved there. I stayed there until I was
seventeen and that’s when I came to Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?”
They were farmers like most people back in them days… were farmers.
Interviewer: “Did they have their own land, or did they work on someone else’s
farm?”
Well, my grandfather left Tennessee when Oklahoma was a territory and he had two
farms in Tennessee and he would rent one of them out. When Tennessee [Oklahoma]
was a territory, if you went out there you got land, the government let you stake for land,
so my grandfather sold his dang land and went out there and after he got out there,
because he wasn’t born and raised out there, he couldn’t get land. 1:39 He had to start
share cropping himself. That’s where my dad grew up and got married. My grandmother
and grandfather had sixteen kids, eight girls and eight boys.

1

�Interviewer: “Now how much… did you go through high school, or did you leave
school?” 1:59
I quit school when I was in the eighth grade, seventh or eighth grade out in Kansas. A
little old high school they called Wayside. We didn’t have a football team there, but we
played softball. That’s how I got interested in softball and baseball. My uncle played
baseball. My uncle was a pitcher and he could pitch eight innings with his right hand and
go nine innings with either hand, and he had a brother who was a left handed catcher and
the Kansas City Monarchs wanted to sign him to play in that league. The Monarchs was
organized back in 1922, I think it was, but my uncle wouldn’t sign with the Monarchs
because they wouldn’t take his brother as a catcher because he was left handed. 2:47 My
uncles and my dad, all of them were baseball players. Back in those days, there wasn’t
any tennis or golf and you either went to the poolroom and played pool or you played
baseball. It worked.
Interviewer: “Did you go to work after you left school?”
Oh yes, I was working before I got out of school. We worked on the farm and I had to
stay out of school sometime, two days a week. I would go to school on Monday,
Wednesday and Friday and Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, I worked the farm. 3:22
That was before I came to Michigan. After I came here, I worked in the foundry. I was
seventeen years old and I worked at that old foundry over there on Front St. They called
it Libman and Geidem, a couple of Jews owned it, but they gave a lot of black guys jobs.
They would go south and pick up a black guy and bring him here and put him to work. I
had a couple of uncles, one of them was in WWI and he came in and worked for the city

2

�and that’s how my family got here. 3:54 He came in 1918 or 1919, somewhere around
there.
Interviewer: “Now, when your family moved out here to Michigan, where did you
live?”
When I first moved here they had a street down there off Ionia that they called Millis
Court, now they got factories and stuff in there, then I lived on Grant Street and my aunt
and uncle bought a place on Logan near Eastern and that’s where I lived until I was
drafted. 4:17 When I went into the army and came out, my brother got married and he
had a place up there on Neland and I stayed with him for a while before I got married and
the next thing I knew I was nuts.
Interviewer: “Let’s go back to the period before the war started. What year did
you come to Grand Rapids?”
1939.
Interviewer: “You got a job in the foundry etc., now do you remember hearing
about Pearl Harbor and America entering the war?” 4:49
I lived it. Pearl Harbor was born on December 7th, 1941. I lived on Miller Street and I
heard it on the radio. I’ll never forget, Roosevelt got on the radio and he said, ―your sons
and my sons will go to war‖, and I was eighteen or nineteen at the most and I said, ―well,
it will last six or eight months like WWI, and I’m not old enough to go into the army, I’ll
never make it‖. Well, that dang war went on four or five years. 5:26
Interviewer: “Did you have friends or know people who actually enlisted after
Pearl Harbor or did most of the guys you knew wait to be called to go?”

3

�Before the war they had a draft and if you were twenty or twenty-one years old, you went
into the service and were supposed to stay 6 months or a year and you get out of the
army, but a lot of them went in the dang army, the war got worse so they froze them and
they had to stay in there. Way late they started drafting guys twenty years old or older
and that’s how they got me. 6:07
Interviewer: “With the job you had, were you still working in the foundry until you
got drafted?”
No, I left that and went to the hotel. The Rowe Hotel, down there by the Post Office
now, but I ran the elevator down there for a while and they were good jobs then.
Working in a hotel was like a professional job. I worked there for a few weeks and
months and then I went to the Morton Hotel and I started bussing dishes up there, bus
boy, and that’s how I started and learned how to wait tables. I went to Mackinac Island
and served up there at the Grand Hotel. About eleven or twelve of us went up there and
they closed up for the season. That was in 1948 I believe. It was right after I came out of
the service. 6:47
Interviewer: “If you had been in the foundry, it’s possible that you had a job that
was more essential and maybe there’s a deferment or something like that, but with
the other jobs, once your number comes up you get drafted, so you’re drafted in
early 1943 then, is that right?”
I stayed at the foundry, you see they had a pouring gang over there, they would melt
brass and they would pour it and they had a pouring gang and the guys worked every
other day. They would close the furnace up every so often to brick it. That’s why I got
out of the foundry, I got laid off. A friend of mine came from Kansas City, but he was

4

�one of the head men down there at the Rowe Hotel and he heard about me looking for a
job and that I was from Kansas City and he gave me a job running the damn elevator.
7:40
Interviewer: “While you were living in Grand Rapids before the war, did you also
play some baseball or catch on with any of the teams?
Oh ya, I tried to play baseball. We had a guy out here, he was from East Grand Rapids
and they called him Stricklin or something like that, anyway I was down in Kalkaska, not
Kalkaska, but about ninety miles south of here?
Interviewer: “Kalamazoo?
No, further south.
Interviewer: Cassopolis?
Ya, that’s it, Cassopolis, they had a lake down there, Paradise Lake, and this one guy
would take teams down there and play, so I went down and played with him once or
twice. That was before the war too. 8:31 He wasn’t known like Jesse Elser was, Jesse
was known all over the United States it looked like.
Interviewer: “Now, when you were living in Grand Rapids, was there a black team
based there? Were there negro teams in Grand Rapids before the war?
No, well they did, old Jesse Elser, the guy I played with, he’d have a team every year and
he would get the better black ball players to play with him and then he would go to
different towns every year. In 1946 when Frank Lamar and Ted Raspberry came in
existence, they organized the Black Sox. 9:12 They took the better ball players. See,
they went all over the United States and got ball players. We had a league here that they
called The Grand Rapids---I know Muskegon had a team in that league and Flint had a

5

�team in that league. Elston Howard, he played with the Yankees. He was with one of
those teams here and I sue to go out and watch him play. 9:40
Interviewer: “I was going to go back to the wartime story. We get to the point
where you get drafted. Now, tell us what’s the process, you get a letter in the mail
saying Uncle Sam wants you or…?”
No, what happened was, you had to go down and get a classification and I had a couple
of old religious aunts here and I hadn’t been classified and it worried the hell out of me
every day. I would go to the draft board to see what my classification was. They could
put you in 1-A as a single and they had another classification if you were married and had
a kid, if you had two they put you in another classification, but they misplaced my
classification when I applied for my registration. 10:23 One day during lunch hour, I
went down there to check it out and the old gal had misplaced the thing. A week later I
got a notice to report to the draft board here and be sent to Detroit for an exam for the
army. There were ten or fifteen of us and we went down there. Well, I’d had pneumonia
and I had a spot on my lung and when they x-rayed me that spot showed up. When we
came back, they were telling guys, ―you’re in the army now, get in this line‖, or they
would tell you to wait and they would send you home. Well, they run me back through
the line and the thing showed that everything was ok. 11:06 He told me, ―you stay in
this line and go home for a week and then go to Battle Creek‖.
Interviewer: “Were they putting you on buses to get you to Detroit and Battle
Creek?”

6

�Oh we had a train, Pere Marquette, the station was over where the Post Office is at now, I
believe it was, and they had the New York Central and they were downtown. Most of the
people going in and out of Grand Rapids came on the New York Central. 11:43
Interviewer: “So, they sent you down to Battle Creek?
They sent me down to Detroit first and I came back here and stayed a week and then went
to Battle Creek.
Interviewer: “When you got to Battle Creek, what did you do there?
They stayed there two or three days, they issued you a bunch of GI equipment, clothing
and all that crap, and I was down there about a week and they put us on a troop train and
sent us to Frisco. 12:07
Interviewer: “Now, before you made that trip, had you ever---you had taken the
trip to get from Kansas to Michigan—
That was by car. My folks would come to visit my grandmother and a lot of them came
by automobile and that’s how I came, by automobile.
Interviewer: ―Ok.”
My brother and one of my cousins, some relative died in Kansas City they went to the
funeral, and after they came for the funeral, I was wanting out of Kansas City, so they
came by and picked me up and that’s how I got to Grand Rapids. 12:37
Interviewer: “So this was the first really long train trip you had taken, out to San
Francisco?”
Oh ya, back in them days, the only way you could take a train was you had to hobo. A
young fellow would leave Kansas and hobo to California. Oh my, them dicks would
knock you off them trains and beat you up and whatever. I was going to go hoboing

7

�myself once to California, but one of my buddies got killed on the railroad track up there
near Kansas City and after that train derailed the track and he got killed, I said, ―heck
with that hoboin’ business‖. 13:11
Interviewer: “With every trip you took from Grand Rapids to Detroit and then
from Battle Creek to San Francisco with the draftees, were you guys segregated?”
Oh yeah, see when I went in service they had a hotel in Detroit where all the black guys
would have to stay at. It was called the Gotham Hotel and you would stay down there a
day or two, well hell I had been around here and worked at a hotel. So all the guys get up
in the morning and go to be examined and classified and I’m laying in bed being asleep
and I call the desk and ask what time they serve breakfast and they ask if I was one of the
guys to be examined with that group from Grand Rapids? I said yes and they said, ―Man,
get the hell down here because everybody’s going to get an exam and classification
whatever.‖ 14:00
Interviewer: “When you were being examined and when whatever else they were
doing in Detroit and Fort Custer, did they always keep the black troops separate
from the white ones or were there places where you were all kind of mixed
together?”
Oh no, see when I went in the service we were segregated and I’ll never forget when we
got out in Texas, maybe Oklahoma, Arizona, well you pull the shade down at night
because the damn Japs had just bombed Pearl Harbor and they thought they were going
to hit the west coast. Man we went to bed that night and the next morning I woke up I
was in Frisco. 14:41 I left here February 10th I think it was, cold, snow and ice

8

�everywhere, and when I got to Frisco the grass green and the sun was shining, I thought I
was in heaven. I said, ―oh my god, where am I at now?‖
Interviewer: “What happened then? You get off the train, where did you go and
what did you do next?”
I got to California and we were there a few days, we didn’t have basic so they gave us
basic training. We had a C.O. sixty five years old, he was too old to take troops back
overseas and he had a young bunch, we was 541st Engineer Quartermaster [Battalion], we
must have had 250 guys in there. We had an A and B Company, maybe another
company, but he knew the commander-in-chief down in Los Angeles that ran the port of
embarkation cause they were both West Point men and when he found out they needed
soldiers down there to load and unload them dang ships, he had us sent to L.A. 15:48. I
stayed down there a year. The only reason I had to go overseas—some dummy up there
in Washington got the bright idea—them guys been over there two or three years and
they need replacement. If you were a 1-A man here in the service, man they would send
you over there as a replacement and that’s how I happened to get sent overseas. 16:08
Interviewer: “In Los Angeles, did you have time to go out to the city? Did you go
like to Central Avenue?
Oh yeah man, I use to be up there on 45th and Central, Dorothy Lamour and Hedy Lamarr
was two white girls in the movies and they use to come to them theaters regular. I stayed
in this little town they called Wilmington, we built tents down there and I stayed down
there a year and I’d drive a truck hauling different soldiers and stuff from Long Beach to
L.A., San Pedro and different places, but I was in L.A. about a year before they had any
expressway down there. 16:50

9

�Interviewer: “Let’s back up a little bit to the training part. Where did you actually
do your basic training?”
I got it up there in Frisco, in Oakland. See [Camp] Stoneman was in Oakland, you
crossed the bridge and you was in Frisco. We got our basic training and after I got my
basic training—we had been in the army like six months and we hadn’t had a furlough
home and you was entitled to one before they sent you overseas, so I was in that
category. I finished getting my basic and I went on the rifle range and I qualified, so they
give me a furlough home. 17:30
Interviewer: “But you hadn’t been in six months at that point.”
I had been in long enough to get basic training and then get a furlough home before they
sent me overseas.
Interviewer: “Describe the basic training process a little bit. What sis they have
you do in basic training?”
Oh my god, the first thing you have to do is to learn how to stand up like a soldier and
salute your dang officers. Then you had to respect your officers. They court martialed
you if you didn’t do right in the dang army and put you in prison for the rest of your
natural life. I was one of those young guys that was taught to always obey, so I didn’t
have a problem or nothing like that. There was a boy in my outfit, they would go out
drinking and come back at night at eleven or twelve o’clock at night and raise a lot of
hell. The CO told them, ―you got guys in the army here, they got to get their rest
because they got to get up in the morning and they got to sleep. When you guys come in
from pass be sure you’re quiet.‖ Some of them didn’t do it and the first outfit comes
through, going overseas, they was short of men, so they took ten guys and put them in

10

�outfits and sent them down there. One boy from Grand Rapids went in there with me and
his ship got blowed up down there around Australia somewhere and we never seen or
heard of him any more, but I know his brothers and stuff. 18:48
Interviewer: “All right, so after that happened, guys who made too much noise or
got themselves in trouble, they get sent overseas. Did the other guys figure out that
it was a good idea to behave, or did they keep on making trouble?”
Well, there was just a few of them and we was in Frisco at that time, so I didn’t stay there
much longer and we went down there to Los Angeles and when I got on that, peaches and
cream. 19:13 The C.O. told us, ―if you guys got a wife or a girl friend, and you want
them to come out and spend some time with you, send for her because we’ll be here for
the duration.‖ I thought I would never go overseas, but I was there eleven months.
Interviewer: “What kind of pay did you draw when you were down there?”
Well, went I went in the service I think they were paying a buck private fifty dollars a
month and out of that you had to take your insurance, which was five or six bucks, and
maybe you got the rest, but if you had a family, you could sign up and I sent my dad an
allotment and he got thirty seven dollars and some cents a month for three years and they
probably take eight, ten or twelve dollars out of my check and put in the rest to send him
this allotment. He got thirty-seven bucks a month. 20:08 The army did a lot of people a
lot of good if they took advantage of the----I’ll tell you another thing. See, when I got
married that GI Bill of Rights was the worst thing that ever happened because you take
Monroe Avenue from down town, Michigan, and go out toward the Old Soldiers Home,
all them homes was being built and you go out Lake Michigan Drive up on the hill there,
all them homes were being built. Well, I got married and had two kids and I went to a

11

�bank to apply for a G.I. loan and that sucker wouldn’t loan me no money to buy a house
in them areas. I had to buy a house between Division and Fuller, from Fulton down Hall
Street.
Interviewer: “Is that where the black people lived?”
That’s where all of them lived.
Interviewer: ―You weren’t allowed to—you basically had red lines, there were
certain places where—“
If you were a doctor or something, he might have had a home in East Grand Rapids or
something, but the majority of them, 98% of them lived in this area. 21:15
Interviewer: “Now when you guys were on base in San Francisco and Los Angeles,
did you notice any types of difference between like racial treatment than here in
Grand Rapids?”
Oh man, L.A. as far as that racial business is concerned, was 20 years ahead of Grand
Rapids. The white girls and the black guys got together out there then and how they got
over---see, the Japanese use to own a lot of homes, a lot of businesses, they run that port
of embarkation in L.A. and when the war started the government took all them Japanese
and put them in a concentration camp there somewhere and the Japs let the black people
have them home, cars and everything else. 22:04 When I got out there I see these blacks
with all these nice homes and I wondered, what the hell is going on here?‖ I found out
that the Japs owned a lot of that stuff and practically gave it to the blacks. Integration
was well under way back in 1945 and 1946 when I was out there, much better than it is
here. 22:23 I know at night, when I was in Pittsburg, California, we’d get a pass to go to
Oakland. Service men first and the bus would come up out there and the women worked,

12

�they had a lot of white girls, they’d be working and GI’s would get on the dang bus and
get all the seats and stuff and a white girl would get on and she would have to stand up
and pull her dang shoes off, but that’s the way it was when I was out there, but back here--never happen. 22:54
Interviewer: “You’re in L.A. for the better part of a year, was there a group of
guys, a platoon or section of men that you normally worked with, so did you have a
group of friends among them that you would go out and do things with or hang
with?”
One of the experiences I had when I was in L.A. was—we was in a camp down there and
they captured a lot of Italian soldiers and one German and they treated them damn Italian
soldiers much better than they did black guys, because every night they would get a pass
and go to Long Beach, come back—they dressed them good and everything and we
would maybe get a pass once a week and I asked them, ―how the hell you guys get
captured?‖ The one German fella, I’ll never forget him, he drove an old tank and they
had him down in the valley like and had him surrounded and I said, ―How did you let
these American capture you?‖ He had a white flag and he waved that flag and they
captured him and sent him out there. 24:09 At that time the Italian prisoners of war were
treated a hell of a lot better than the black soldiers
Interviewer: “Did you guys talk about that? How upset you were about it?”
Oh man yes, well you see, if you were from the south—you probably heard stories about
the southern states bases and that—you got to L.A. and I talked to guys from Mississippi,
Alabama—things were so nice out there, one of them told me, ―Gullick, I’ll never go
back to Alabama‖, because he was treated so nice out there. A lot of them out there was

13

�born and raised on a farm and they did a lot of logging and they had a white guy riding
around on a horse telling them what to do and that they better do it otherwise they put
them in prison and they might kill them. 24:59
Interviewer: “The unit you were serving with there, the quartermaster unit, so the
soldiers were all black, the enlisted men were all black?”
Everybody was black except the officers. We had white officers and if you were
intelligent in the service—when I got overseas I run my outfit because I had a little
Lieutenant, he was a young fella and I think he was afraid of the black guys because he
let me run the motor pool. See, I was, let me see, what was my job? Anyway, I assigned
trucks, all the vehicles that it took to build a road and maintain a road, I was in charge of
that equipment and I had a Lieutenant, I had a Jeep and I run him down the road every
day in the Jeep. 25:49 Different guys, I would assign them to a job and that’s what they
had to do. I would take my Jeep and go out on the road and see how they were doing at
everything.
Interviewer: “that’s getting a little bit ahead of the story because that’s the stuff
overseas, but back in California, your officers, were they mostly older men or kind
of like that fellow back in Stoneman or were they men in their twenties and just
recruits too?” 26:10
Well, we had some guys that just came out of—what did they call it?
Interviewer: “Officers candidate school? Ninety-day wonders? West Point?
West Point, I’ve had young guys in the service about twenty, twenty-one, they might
have been twenty-eight or thirty, but you talk about some nice fellows—man them guys,
West Pointers, some of them were excellent just like the guys are right now. 26:37 It is

14

�kind of hard to believe—now them older fellows you run into one forty, fifty years old,
oh, he’s nuts anyway and they treat you like you are a fool. But, that’s the way it was
and we had some real nice officers when I was in Stoneman—not Stoneman, but when I
was down there in L.A.
Interviewer: “When you got the news that you had to ship out overseas, what was
your reaction to that?”
Interviewer: I’ll tell ya, I had left L.A. and was in Sacramento and they had a detail
there where you could go out and pick peaches every day and the government paid you.
Well hell, I’d shoot craps and play poker and I made more money than the guys working,
so I wouldn’t go pick no damn peaches. 27:24 I had an old first sergeant and he begged
me to go out and pick some peaches. He said, ―Gullick, if you don’t go out and pick
peaches, I’m going to put you on special orders and send you overseas‖. I’d been in the
army over a year and wasn’t overseas. I didn’t think I would ever go, but I wasn’t going
to go pick no damn peaches. So, one day they called us at attention and they said, ―the
following names of enlisted men will report to the orderly room and get a new issue of
equipment because you are going to be shipped overseas‖. They called my name,
Corporal Felix Gullick, 36566937, that was my old dog tag number, report to the orderly
room to get shipped overseas. Man, it was like I had a heart attack, but I went over there
and got my crap and the next thing they shipped me right back to L.A, and we got on the
boat, I think, the twenty fifth of September in 1944 and I went to Bombay, India. 28:26
Interviewer: “What kind of boat did they put you on? Was it an old Liberty Ship
or a converted liner or something else?”

15

�Well, it was the S.S. General A.E. Anderson and I think the thing had been converted to
all passengers. It might have been a… I don’t know.
Interviewer: “A freighter or something like that?”
Something like that, But I went to Melbourne, Australia, we left L.A. in September and
got to Melbourne, Australia, we got off the boat—we had to be there two and a half days
to refuel that ship, so they wouldn’t let the black soldiers off, they put a rope around this
area and you could get in that area and that was it. You go down there in Australia and
the white girls go crazy about the black boys. Anyway, we were there two and a half
days and Tokyo Rose, you heard of her? She was with the Japanese, she got on the damn
radio one morning and said, ―you guys left L.A. the 25th of September, you’re in
Melbourne, Australia and your destination is Bombay, India‖. We didn’t know where the
hell we were going and she wished us a lot of luck. 29:39 She said our buddies that
were supposed to leave L.A. the next day will never make it because them damn Japs
blew them out of the ocean down there last night. No kidding, they never got over there.
We were torpedoed the first night I left Melbourne, Australia going to Bombay, but the
dang thing missed us. 30:02 We survived. Another thing, see back in those days they
convoyed all the soldiers; five, eight, ten of those ships would get together. The sent us
over there on a boat by our dang selves and we didn’t have any escort until we got within
four days of Bombay. We were very fortunate, I went through Corregidor, Bataan, not
Bataan, let me see, I forgot some of those names.
Interviewer: “That’s in the Philippines, was that on the way home?”
That was on the way over there. We left Melbourne, Australia and I went through
Singapore, and different islands like that.

16

�Interviewer: “A lot of those places at that time were still controlled by the Japanese.
Singapore, they held on to until the end of the war. [The ship may have gone past
parts of Indonesia and Sri Lanka, but not Singapore or the Philippines—ed.] Anyway,
tell me a little bit about the trip on the boat. What was that like?” 30:56
Oh my god, we were in a damn hurricane—three days it was. Man, that damn boat
would go straight up and come back down, we couldn’t go from here downtown in eight
hours, that’s about how far that thing would go. They had to close off the compartments
and they would lock them doors and stuff, but this one guy would get in the crow’s nest,
you know they go a crow’s nest that’s up there and that guy would come out on deck and
he had to crawl around to get on this ladder to go up in there, but we couldn’t even come
up on deck for about three days. 31:54 During that storm, we ate seagulls and baked
beans for breakfast. They’d tell us we had chicken or something. They fed you twice a
day, but I was twenty one or two years old in good health and everything, I could eat
anything and never go seasick, but a lot of guys with a weak stomach, well they probably
didn’t follow orders anyway, but we would go to the mess hall and you had to stand up
and you’d get a tray and I seen guys heave in the trays all the way back down to the
compartment and you would walk in that crap. I stayed on that damn boat thirty some
days and never got seasick and I did real good. 32:35 Then coming back, see we
stopped in Guam to refuel, and come back, but I went through Melbourne, Australia and I
don’t know how many islands we went through and you could see land and on one of
those islands you didn’t have to have no permission to dock a boat there. I forget the
name of that dang thing, but most places if you docked a ship anywhere, you had to get
permission. When I came back home from overseas we stopped out there within three

17

�blocks of Alcatraz. An officer was supposed to come and inspect the boat and let us get
off the thing, but them suckers were uptown there having fun and we had to stay there all
night looking over there at Alcatraz. The next day they examined the thing and let us get
off the ship. 33:26
Interviewer: “Let’s go back to your trip there. You left Melbourne and the
Japanese submarine tried to torpedo your ship and you kept going and you sail on
up to Bombay. Is that where you get off? What impression did you have of
Bombay when you got off the ship?”
Oh my god, that’s one of the worst, the poorest nation on earth because those natives over
there—you see kids running up and down the railroad tracks, three, five, six years old and
on up, without a stitch on and ain’t seen their mother or father in six or eight months and
here’s Americans, we have a lot of coins and we’d throw coins out in the damn river and
they would dive down and get the coin. I was in Bombay overnight or something like
that and we got on troop trains and went up to India and Burma—there was a station up
there, but they were narrow gauge tracks, they didn’t have no wide railroad tracks and
man, it would take you a whole damn day to go forty miles. They got kids running up
and down the railroad tracks every day without a stitch on begging you for something.
34:48 ―Give me something please, you very rich, me very poor, no mama, no papa, no
sister, no brother, nothing, please give me something‖. I gave them all the coins I had in
my pocket and one woman came up to me one day and she had a baby and I hadn’t seen
no lady and a baby in I don’t know how long, so I’m just standing there admiring the
baby and I asked her to let me hold the baby. She did. See over there they had rupees and
a rupee was like a dollar bill and it wasn’t worth but thirty three cents, so I run out of

18

�coins and I gave her one of them dang rupees and she left me with the baby and started
away from there. 35:28 I asked somebody what happened to the mother of the child and
they said, ―man you just bought that baby‖, and I said, ―hell no‖, I had to go catch her
and give the baby back to her, but I’d bought me a baby over there for thirty some cents.
Interviewer: “All right, now you get up onto Burma and you’re going out—what
unit did you join when you got up there?”
I got with the 45th Engineers and they were building and maintaining about sixty-five or
seventy miles of that road. In the Himalaya Mountains and it was in what they called the
―hump‖. That’s the lower part of the Himalayas and after you went through a certain
level part of the country there, you went through the bump; the high part and you’re
getting up near China then. I was up there in-between there because we built and
maintained about sixty-five miles of that road. 36:21 Of course we had six outfits in my
regiment and I was in F Company. I happened to be a dispatcher in the motor pool, that’s
how I got to know all the vehicles and everything.
Interviewer: “How many men were you in charge of at this point?”
Oh, at that time—I’ve had seventy-five dump truck drivers under me in one day. My
mechanics, the guys that run the heavy equipment – Caterpillar graders, low range
shovels and all that kind of crap, all that was under the motor pool. My first, not my first
sergeant, but my Lieutenant, he allowed me to run the dang motor pool. So, I was in
charge of practically all of them guys. 37:07
Interviewer: “Now the 45th was that an all black unit or were there black
companies in it?”

19

�It was all black. They had white officers and after the war, after old Roosevelt died and
old Truman got to be the president of the United States, the war is over now and I’m
getting ready to come home, but a lot of guys came home a lot sooner than I did. He
integrated the dang army. You’re in the army according to your last name A, B, C etc.
and they put you in outfits according to that. I’m in an outfit in the service with I think,
three or four white boys. When I left Calcutta coming back to the states. We had one
boy, I called him ―little rebel‖, he was from Missouri and another guy, one of them was
from Pittsburgh or maybe from New York, but you know the white boys, north at that
time were much different than those from the south. 38:03 This young white fellow
from Missouri, he was very timid and everything and we get ready to go to lunch and I
said, ―come on get your mess kit and let’s go eat‖ and them other two white boys said
they already had gone, but I took him like a brother and his mother had gave him a bible
and he gave me the bible and told me he wanted me to keep it and I never forget him, but
he was a nice kid. I was three or four years older, but I have been around and had
experience. I had a lot of life before I went in the army and a lot of them guys eighteen,
nineteen years old ain’t been nowhere. 38:42 They were way away from home and
didn’t know what the heck to do. My mother died when I was seven and I lived with my
grandmother and my aunts and I never did see my dad much, so I’d been out there in the
world getting it for myself.
Interviewer: “Tell us a little bit what life was like up there in Burma. What did
you do?”
Well, it rained like a son of a gun, the monsoon, man you would go to bed at night wet
and you get up wet. They had these old tents, they had American tents and British tents

20

�and like it rained today and the sun would come out and it would be hot as heck. The
ground might crack it was just that hot. Then too, them old tents would rot and water
come through tem things. I know the Air Force had a parachute and I got me a parachute
and I put it up over my bed at night and the water would come through and hit that
parachute it would drain off. I was up there a year and a half and we would take a five
gallon container of fuel and light it and set it right by your tent cause at that time the
animals, tigers and lions and whatever, man they would attack some of them guys. Three
guys in my outfit got attacked by lions and tigers. 40:08 So that one morning I knew I’d
take me that five-gallon thing and I would light it at night and put it right by the head of
my bed. One morning I got up and got ready to go to breakfast and I looked at the side of
my tent and a lion or tiger or something his old paw marks were up there and he was
going to get in there and attack me I guess. One thing about the service, we had our rifles
you know, it’s a piece they call it, but I had an M-1, boy, I could hit you as long as I
could see you. That was my ―piece‖ and that was my brother and I kept that old rifle
along side of my bed at night. 40:51 That’s the way it was up there and during the day
things were a little different because I would make out trip tickets and give them out to
the guys telling what they had to do and everything. We would be at the motor pool
seven or eight o’clock in the morning and they would go out on the road and go to work.
I had to go out there and see of all them vehicles were still in good shape and if they
wasn’t I’d dead line them and have a mechanic come and take them—it had a name—we
had a place where we sent stuff –1st, 2nd, 3rd echelon and if it wasn’t bad the mechanic
would do it right there in my motor pool and if it was, they might have to send it to one of
them other places. 41:27 If the transmission or something would go out on it.

21

�Interviewer: “Working on the road, were both blacks and whites working to build
that road?”
Well, we had thirty-three engineering outfits up there. Thirty of them were black and did
most of the work. Now, the white boys, they might have built the bridges across them
rivers and stuff, but there wasn’t too damn many of them.
Interviewer: “Did you have either Chinese or Indian laborers who were doing a lot
of the manual work?
No, I seen Japanese one day. I was on the road—I thought he was a damn Chinaman and
when I got to him I said, ―Boy, how you doing?‖
Interviewer: “Was he a Japanese prisoner?”
He got lost from his outfit and he was lost up there in the jungles and he was trying to
find his outfit I guess cause I passed him on the road and I spoke to him and I said, ―Hey
Joe, how ya doing?‖ He spoke, but kept going. That guy had ammunition and I don’t
know what all he didn’t have on him. I walked on up to my company and he did too and
he went down the road about a quarter of a mile and the next thing I heard were shots.
Well, some of them Americans seen him and they recognized him and they killed him.
43:18 They knew he was Japanese—I didn’t know he was Japanese. He had been up in
them jungles I don’t know how long, but he got lost from his outfit.
Interviewer: “When you were out there in the jungles, did you see anything of the
local population? Were there any villages around or anything like that?”
Well, they had a village quite away from us and they had—I called them the whores up
there and they was socking it to you for 35 Rupees or something. I was 20 or 30 miles
from a village where they had any women. I was up there twelve months and never seen

22

�a woman. When I did see one, she was like a half-mile or so from me and she dressed
like the men. 44:00 She had on a damn uniform and you couldn’t tell whether she was a
man or a woman.
Interviewer: While you were up there working on the road, did you have much—
did you know much about what was going on in the rest of the war or anything, or
did someone just tell you one day that the was over?”
Well see, I had a radio and we had newspapers come out occasionally. I had a radio and I
could get the news darn near every day. I kept up with the war especially in Europe and
down there in the Pacific and I know when the war ended. Well, the war ended in Europe
and they were sending all those guys from Europe over to Burma and a lot of them didn’t
get there before the war ended in the CBI, China, Burma, India and they let them go
home. 44:58 I know when they dropped that bomb on Nagasaki, they blowed that damn
thing right out of the face of the earth and we celebrated like the war’s over. And that was
the greatest thing that ever happened during the time that I was in the army because the
Japs said, ―to hell with ya, if you want the war that bad you can have it‖, and they quit.
45:21
Interviewer: “Once the war ended, did you continue working on the roads and
doing the same things?”
When the war ended, I’ll tell you what the federal government did, now they tore up the
damn roads, see I was over there when they took graders and everything, the highways,
the road we built going through Burma and India, they cut that thing up and destroyed it
so the people couldn’t use it no more. A lot of the equipment we used to build that road
with, some of them guys, they might have been rich Indians or something, but they

23

�bought a lot of the equipment and when I left, I was one of the last guys that left, I went
to a staging area in Calcutta and we had to wait two or three weeks for a boat to come
there and pick us up and bring us back to the states. 46:08 A lot of my guys got away
from there a lot sooner than I did.
Interviewer. “Why do you think you had to stay so long?”
Well you see, they let you go home on a point system. If you had a wife and babies you
got fifteen or twenty points for each one of them and I didn’t have a wife or baby or
nothing. You got one point for being in the army and maybe two points for each year,
each month you were overseas. Well, I didn’t have enough points, so I was one of the
last guys that got to go home.
Interviewer: “When you were in the staging area in Calcutta, did they make you
stay there, could you go into the city or what did you do?” 46:52
Oh no, we was in a camp and they had women that drove around in them rickshaws, them
old Chinese gals that had them slits in their dresses and man, they would ride by the camp
and they would pull their dress up and you could see those big thighs and shit and a lot of
my guys jumped over the fence and go down to the whore camp and buy a piece of ass. I
said to heck with it. The Chinese women carried a disease they called the ―Chinese rots‖
and your privacies would drop off and I’ve been in the hospital and seen some of them
that lost their privacies and nuts and the whole damn thing—they got a big sore spot
down there. The Chinese women only have one kid. I said to heck with the Chinese. I
would fuck anything over there but the dang Chinese. One day I seen one come by there
and I had to go over the damn fence myself. They had a prophylactic; a place where you
could go and take a pro kit and I did and I went to praying to god I kept clean. 47:55 I

24

�did alright. That malaria fever, they give you a pill in the morning before breakfast and
it was a yellow tablet. It turns your skin yellow and a lot of guys would take that dang
pill and throw it behind them, but I took that pill every day and I never got the malaria.
48:13
Interviewer: “That was the atabrine and that was the stuff that was intended to
prevent you from getting it. Once you got it, it didn’t help you much. For you
anyway it worked. Now, did you need to take those pills when you were up in the
jungle, or was that above where the mosquitoes were?”
When I was in Burma. All the while I was in Burma, I remember taking them pills every
day. 48:32 We had a medic, the guy was a medical man, when you got ready to get in
line to get your food you were supposed to have some water in your mess kit—it might
have been—but some container that had water in it and you were supposed to have water
and when you got to that medic he gave you that dang pill and you were supposed to take
it when you went in there to get your food. I did. 48:58
Interviewer: “Now, were their other diseases or medical problems that the men up
in Burma had? Were their other jungle diseases and things they got?”
Man at that time they had more different diseases that our medical people in this country
have never heard of and I don’t know half of them.
Interviewer: “Did you have a lot of guys that wound up being sick and they
couldn’t go out to work or would they just go out anyway?”
When you got sick up there, they put you in the hospital, but you didn’t have to go to
work, especially if you had a fever and were sick enough. I was very fortunate, I stayed

25

�over there a year and a half and man I worked every day. Rain like a son of a gun, Jesus
Christ, that monsoon season lasts about six months a year and it rained every day. 49:55
Interviewer: “Now the time you were up there working on the road, did they ever
give you a leave or a furlough?”
Ya, I got one after I was up there a year and I went to Calcutta and man I think I had
1500 or 1800 Rupees when I got down there. When I got down there, man things were so
good and shit, I threw them Rupees away so fast and after I was there about a week I took
inventory and I said, ―I got to ease up on the money otherwise I’ll be broke before I even
leave here.‖ I did some touring in Calcutta. See, I went to the temple down there and
you talk about some beautiful churches, the temples—those Indians, they put out some
marvelous work and some of those places you to, you couldn’t wear shoes, you had to
pull off your dang shoes and the largest tree in the world, I bet it is as big around as this
dang room almost, but I seen that in India. Another thing, Hindustani, Hindu people over
there—Mohammad and Anglo are the three main tribes of India, now the Hindustani are
the poorest ones out of the bunch and they call them natives. 51:11 When somebody
died they take and build a dang place up there like that and they burn him and they tell
me—everything burns on a human being but his navel string and those dang old Indians
over there, they believe this shit. When somebody dies they take that navel string and
throw it out there in the middle of the river and call it washing the sins away, but it was
quite an experience over there. 51:41
Interviewer: “Now, you get to the end of the time, you come back down to Calcutta,
what kind of a boat did they put you on to send you home?”

26

�Well, I’ll say there was a passenger ship because it was built for a lot of men, but the boat
we was on was like that too. Now, you take that Queen Mary, it was one of the largest
ships afloat at that time, well, it wasn’t nothing but a passenger ship and some of the
boats I was on, two different ships, the U.S.S. General A.E. Anderson and I forget the
name of the other boat I was on coming back, but they were both nice. 52:20
Interviewer: “Was it on the ship going back then, was the segregation breaking
down, did you have black and white soldiers on the same ship?”
Oh ya, see, when I left Calcutta they put you on a boat according to your last name and
we were together, go eat together, you had a bunk, either me on top of you or you on top
of me and stuff like that. Harry Truman, he made it possible. [Truman ordered the
desegregation of the armed forces in 1947—ed.] Truman made that statement when he
got to be president of the United States. When he got to his desk he said, ―the buck stops
here‖, that means the bullshit to someone else. I’ve been to his museum down in Kansas
City once or twice, but he’s got a heck of a lot nicer one than the one we got here in
Grand Rapids. 53:09 It’s a whole lot better than that Gerald Ford thing we got.
Interviewer: “Now you sail back, you stop off at Guam, were there other stops
along the way?
No, that’s the only place we stopped coming back and we got within two hundred miles
of the Hawaiian Islands and there was a floating mine out there and it looked like a tea
kettle and that dang old boat stopped and started circling and the guys on there that was
in the navy and in the other branch of the service-Interviewer: “The Marines?”

27

�Yeah, the Marines, they started firing at this thing, I’ll bet they fired at that thing twentyone times before they hit it. The waves were bobbing up and down and the ship—finally
that thing blew up and man, I was standing out on the edge of the ship and it knocked me
back up against the rail on the back of the boat and we were 2000 miles out of Hawaii
and I came on in Frisco and we spent the night up there watching that dog gone Alcatraz.
54:23 I had been stationed in Oakland and I could see Alcatraz every day and we’d go to
Frisco at night. Well, on the train we would go by where you could see Alcatraz real
easy.
Interviewer: “So, they get you home and they finally let you off the ship in San
Francisco, then, how long before you got to go home?”
Well, I’d say two to three days maybe. The doctors would examine you to be sure you
didn’t have no disease or whatever. The next thing you knew, they would send you to
your nearest separation center. Well, I went into the army from Battle Creek, but there
were so many guys being discharged in Battle Creek, they had to send me to Atterbury,
down in Indiana somewhere or to McCoy in Wisconsin, so they sent me to McCoy. My
brother, he had been overseas in Germany and I hadn’t seen him in three or four years
and he and a friend of mind, they met me in Chicago and we got together and came home
here to Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: “Now, once you came back home again, were you staying with family
again once you got back to Grand Rapids?” 55:32
Ya, I stayed with my brother. I lived with my aunt and uncle before I went in the service
and my brother, he was married and had an apartment and I stayed with him, I don’t

28

�know, two or three months or something. The next thing you know I got a girl pregnant
and I had to get married and then I got my own place.
Interviewer: “Tell us about some of the things you did when you got back, what
kind of jobs you were working.”
Let me see, when I came out of the service--well see, they had a program, the
government had a program and they called it ―the fifty-two twenty club‖ and if they
didn’t give you the type of job you had in the army you didn’t have to accept it and you
could draw that unemployment, every week for fifty-two weeks. So, I applied for a
dispatcher job—they wouldn’t hire no black guys in this town doing that type of work, so
I drawed unemployment for seven months. 56:23 The old bank roll was getting bad and
I blew $2,000.00 dollars down to about $500.00 and I said, ―I better get me a job and go
to work‖, so I went to work at General Motors right over here, the one fixin’ to close up,
man I got out there and they told me about all the type of opportunities for advancements
and what not—so I believed them—so I got out there and they give me a job that was
nasty—I was just grinding metal on the side of a car—me and another guy, but they hired
the white boys and they gave them a much better job than I had. 56:59 I never did get
there until on a Monday, so that third week I went out there, I’d been sick with a strep
throat or something and I had been sick for two or three days and the foreman said,
―Gullick, you’re taking too much time off work‖. Well, he didn’t know I had just got up
from a poker table that night, went home and got dressed, I’d been drinking all night and
I said, ―man what you talking about, you look, I’m right here now‖. Well they had been
going south, picking up black guys and bringing them back and giving them jobs and
stuff, so me and him had a few words and I asked him, ―can you go to the office and get

29

�my check?‖ He said, ―oh no, we can’t do that‖, and I said, ―well, that’s the only thing
you can do for me because I’m leaving this god damn place. I ain’t staying in the army
no three years and two months and come back out here and try to make these damn cars
in one day and that’s what you people are trying to do‖. 57:48 If you went to the
restroom, the foreman would work in your place while you’re gone. After three weeks I
quit. My brother, I told him about it and he quit the same day I did, but he had been there
three or four months. We got on the bus right out here at 36th and Division going
downtown the old bus driver kept looking in the mirror—me and my brother were sitting
in the back and we got down around 28th Street somewhere and the old bus driver said,
―well fellas you don’t have to tell me what happened, I used to work there myself and I
wouldn’t go back out there if they gave me half interest in the place‖. 58:30 That’s
when I started driving cab for the black guys.
Interviewer: “That was for the Victory Cab Co., the black cab company?”
Yes. I stayed there until they went out of business and then I went to Diesel in 1950. I
stayed there until 1980 and I retired. I’ve been out for twenty-eight years.
Interviewer: “That second job was a better one than the stuff they had down at
GM?”
At Diesel man, everything was nice. Precision work, clean—everything, but over there at
General Motors, hell, all they built was top and doors and crap and you had to lift them
and do all that crap and on top of that, you didn’t get no break. See, in the army they give
you a ten minute break every hour whatever you did, but here you just kept on working.
59:17 If you had to go to the restroom, the dang old foreman would work in your place,
so I said, ―to hell with this noise‖.

30

�Interviewer: “Tell us a little bit about how you wind up getting involved with the
baseball club?”
Well, when I came out of the service—I always loved baseball see, before I got in the
service and I played a little before I went in the army. After I got out, they had this team
and I got involved with them and every week-end they would go somewhere to play
baseball and you would get two or three bucks, maybe seven or eight at the most, and I
got to know a lot of the guys and I got to know the old manager because we had a pool
room around here where we all met and they had a restaurant there and a hotel upstairs
and everybody would be there and those guys would be playing ball somewhere this
week-end and they asked me if I wanted to go and I said, ―heck ya‖, and I went. That’s
how I got involved with baseball, but I was up there in Kalkaska and Traverse City. I
was up there two days and come back to Bowen and the third day I was away from here
playing ball and I got seven or eight bucks up there and I got three dollars in Bowen and I
said, ―to heck with the ball business‖, because I was married and had two kids and they
would rather have food than baseball. I came back here and I went to work for General
Motors Diesel and they had a softball team and I played softball with them until I was
forty-five years old. :43 When I went there, the ball team, everybody was on the team
and I met the manager and after I met him we started talking about the game and I said,
―everybody out here is trying to manage the team, why don’t you give one of them the
job and you be a player?‖ He made me the captain, so I told them, ―look fellas, we’re
going to play ball, now you’re either going to play or you’re not‖, and I had my own team
around here once and I told them then, there aint going to be only one manager and I be
the manager‖.

I had a raffle and bought them all Cincinnati red uniforms and give them

31

�to them and stuff. 1:23 I had three black guys and the bastards wouldn’t do right, so I
fired them and got three white boys in their place. We had a lot of fun back in them days.
Interviewer: “Now, when you played and went to colored baseball games for the
Negro leagues, did they play on Sunday or Saturday and Sunday?”
See the Black Sox and Bob Sullivan’s team, I forget the name of them now, but they used
to have baseball here every Sunday because different teams from out of town played. I
seen Homestead Braves and the Kansas City Monarchs, they was a traveling team and
they come through here every year and I would see them play. They had a softball team
here they called King and His Court, have you ever heard of them?
Interviewer: “No .” 2:05
It was a four man team, Ed Finger was the pitcher and his right arm was dang near twice
as big as his left arm and he traveled all over the United States pitching softball and I
seen him play three or four times. Baseball use to be the thing if you was working and
living in Grand Rapids on a Sunday when them ball teams came in here to play, you had
to be there.
Interviewer: “Everybody look’n their best, their best clothes?”
Ya, ya, and old Ted Raspberry, you heard of him, see he use to have an east, west game
in Kaminski Park every year and old Paul Goebel, when he got to be the mayor of Grand
Rapids—he was a republican and he tried to get Ted Raspberry to campaign for him.
Ted was a democrat and Ted wouldn’t do it, but he would have his All Star game in
Chicago every year at Comiskey Park and Ted would make five or ten thousand dollars
from that one game, so old Goebel told him, ―if you don’t campaign and support me in
this election coming up and if I get to be the mayor, I’m going to bust you‖, and Ted

32

�worked up to have a team in new York in Yankee Stadium. 3:25 One day him and me
was talking and he told me he was going to New York and he was going to make
eighteen thousand dollars off of that one game in Yankee Stadium and the next thing you
know, Goebel got to be the mayor and he busted Ted and he had to pay ten thousand
dollars cash money because Ted had prostitutes, teams, a basketball team, a baseball
team, a football team, running the numbers and all that kind of crap, so they popped him
and he paid ten thousand like that and two or three weeks later he popped him again—he
had to pay five thousand and he couldn’t handle this, so they stopped his action and Ted
had to go to selling cars around here. 4:08 He introduced me to Buck O’Neill, then on
the Monarchs, and I go to Kansas City and Buck died a couple of years ago and when I’d
go down there he would let me and any of my friends go through there. They got a heck
of a nice museum in Kansas city and that Hall of Fame, Ted Turner was the first man that
invested some money starting that hall of Fame because ABC, CBS, NBC, none of them
wouldn’t invest even a quarter. After Ted Turner made his investment, these other
businesses started doing likewise. Man, they got a beautiful place down there.
Interviewer: “When Jackie integrated baseball, how did you feel about that?”
Well, I didn’t know what to think, but I figured it was going to happen eventually. Just
like this old boy now that is running for president, who the hell ever thought he would
make it to be the president. It was amazing when he came out of Pasadena. See, Jackie
Robinson played with the Monarchs too, I think, before he got in the majors, but Jackie
was an educated man just like Obama, and Branch Rickey, who owned the Dodgers,
knew Jackie’s background and everything and told him what to do and how to do things.
5:23 He joined the Brooklyn Dodgers and man I’m telling you, he made the game a

33

�whole lot better than it was and he did some things on the diamond that a lot of people
never seen or heard of. I seen Jackie play two or three times. Old Roy Capanella and
Duke Snyder and I forget all them guy’s names. Anytime they would be in Detroit I
would come down to see them. The All Star game, if I could get tickets to the game, I’d
be going.
Interviewer: “Now, back in Grand Rapids there was also a women’s baseball team,
the Grand Rapids Chicks, did you ever see any of their games or know any of those
players?”
I seen Marian Ladwig, she played with the Chicks before she turned to bowling, but
when I met her she was down at the Sanatorium and Morrisey, he’d sit in a chair like this
and every time she would go up there and roll the ball she would come back and he
would say something to her. I got to know his sons real well, a couple of them
especially and then I got to know Marian Ladwig. 6:28 We was at a Hall of Fame thing
here, I say for or five years ago, the last time I seen Marian Ladwig to talk to. She was
interested in one of these bowling alleys and bought an interest in that thing. A while
back I asked somebody about it and she is still living. I’m 86—86 now, but she’s close to
90years old. That hall of Fame, that Bowling Hall of Fame there in Kansas City and now
they are building a new one in Dallas Texas, Fort Worth and I intend to go down there
next spring and see what it is like. I bowled in New Orleans, New Jersey, California,
Detroit and darn near everywhere in-between. I followed that circuit man, I been doing it
man for thirty some years. 7:21
Interviewer: “You have certainly done quite a few different things—think back to
the time you spent in the army, how do you think that wound up affecting you in the

34

�way you see the world or deal with people, what sort of effect do you think it had on
you?
I think if you travel and meet different people, it’s the best education you can get. I heard
once that if you could afford get your kids graduated from high school and give them a
trip around the world, it’s equivalent to four years in college, but I was fortunate enough
to be half way around the world, I met a lot of people and one thing about me, I’ve
always tried to increase my education. I read papers, the Washington news, go places,
see things and do things and I believe that contributes to my good health and my way of
being now. A lot of people retire like I did and they go sit on the porch and watch the
birds fly by and watch television and All in the Family and that kind of crap. I promised
God when I retired I would never be a couch potato and sit there and watch TV all the
time. I’m going to find something to do, go somewhere and be active. I love to bowl, I
love to play golf and I play baseball and stuff and I been going practically all my life. I
really enjoy going and I think one of the best things in the world a man can do is meet
different people.
Interviewer: “Thank you very much for coming in and talking to us today.”
It’s been a pleasure, I enjoyed it because that baseball career I had and I think about some
of those boys get twenty million a year to play baseball and a lot of them after they get
that money, like the Tigers here, man the payroll they had last year, they give some them
people all that money and they aint played a game, they didn’t do a damn thing, but they
got paid. I think about the times I played and I was out in that hot sun boy, it was
something, but we made it possible for them to do what they’re doing.
Interviewer: “You certainly did.”

35

�36

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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Steven Gunn
Vietnam War
1 hour 14 minutes 45 seconds
(00:00:17) Early Life
-Born in Austin, Texas, in 1946
-Spent some time in El Paso, Texas
-Family moved to Clinton, Mississippi, when he was in second grade
-Grew up there
-Graduated from high school in 1964
-Attended Mississippi College for one year, then Houston Baptist University, then Baylor University
-Completed his bachelor degree in 1968
-Went to the University of Chicago to get his master’s degree in social work
(00:02:04) Getting Drafted &amp; Awareness of Vietnam War
-Draft board contacted him in the middle of his year at University of Chicago
-Allowed to complete the year
-Reported for duty in Chicago in August 1969
-He disagreed with the war and didn’t want to contribute to the killing
-Applied for conscientious objector status, so he wouldn’t be a combatant
-Could have applied for non-military service, but didn’t think he would get it
-Didn’t want to move to Canada
-Being a conscientious objector meant he would serve as a medic
(00:05:05) Basic Training
-Sent to Fort Sam Houston, Texas, for basic training
-Trained with other conscientious objectors
-They weren’t harassed by the drill sergeants for being conscientious objectors
-Did physical training
-Learned some basic land navigation skills
-Went on marches and learned about military protocol (rank, who to salute, etc.)
-Didn’t receive any weapons or hand-to-hand training
-Lasted eight weeks
(00:06:56) Medic Training
-Stayed at Fort Sam Houston for medic training
-Trained how to be an orderly in a hospital, how to treat sucking chest wounds, and basic First Aid
-Lasted ten weeks
(00:08:21) Deployment to Vietnam
-Given a leave home before deploying to Vietnam
-Sent to Vietnam in January 1970
-Flew from the United States to Japan to Vietnam on a chartered civilian airliner
-Landed at Cam Ranh Bay
-Didn’t make much of an impression on him
-Hot, but not oppressive
-Went through processing and issued jungle fatigues and boots
-Received his unit assignment at Cam Ranh Bay
(00:11:17) Assignment to 101st Airborne Division
-Assigned to the 101st Airborne Division at Camp Evans

�-Initially assigned to Headquarters (HQ) Company of the 2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment
-Battalion headquarters was at Camp Evans, and Camp Evans was located near Phu Bai
-Unit was in the field operating near firebases in the area
-Didn’t have any problems joining his unit
(00:14:58) Operating around Camp Evans Pt. 1
-Went into the field with Delta Company
-Served in the field with them for six months
-Doesn’t remember much about his first few days in the field
-Patrolled, slept in the field, and ate C-rations
-Handed out anti-malaria pills
-Remembers finding a pit that led to an underground bunker complex
-Doused it with gasoline then set it on fire
-Treated a man who had gotten singed
-Nobody commented about him not carrying a weapon
(00:17:00) Operation Texas Star – Establishing Firebase Ripcord
-In March 1970, the 101st Airborne Division launched Operation Texas Star
-Reestablishing Firebase Ripcord on the A Shau Valley
-Went into that area via helicopter
-Feet dangling out of a Huey helicopter
-Dropped off at the landing zone
-When they landed they got shot at a couple times
-Moved to wherever they were told to go
-Company operated as a full unit, but the platoons split up while in the field
(00:20:05) Operating around Camp Evans Pt. 2
-Participated in one ambush in the Flatlands
-Only five or six men
-Considered a low risk situation, otherwise he wouldn’t have gone with them
-Had a Chieu Hoi scout with them
-Note: Chieu Hoi scouts were North Vietnamese defectors working with US forces
-Nothing happened
(00:21:25) Patrols in the Mountains
-In the mountains they walked single file with some space between each soldier
-Follow the man in front of you
-Used trails and also forged their own paths
-Jungle was thick, but it looked more like a forest than a stereotypical jungle
-Saw a beautiful, green bamboo viper
-It was a rocky, steep, and forested areas
(00:23:35) Leadership in Delta Company
-The first platoon leader was incompetent
-More concerned about how much peanut butter he had than anything else
-Didn’t know how to use night vision goggles
-Basically focused on himself
-Captain Rollison took command of D Company and dismissed the incompetent platoon leader
-Steven joined a platoon under the command of Jim McCall
-At first he found Captain Rollison to be intimidating and thought he was a redneck
-In retrospect, he realizes how competent and strong he was as a leader
-Positive and respectful man
-Steven came from a college town, with college-educated parents
-Had a negative perception of anyone that behaved like a redneck

�(00:27:27) Patrols around Firebase Ripcord Pt. 1
-From March through June 1970 D Company patrolled the area around Firebase Ripcord
-Not too many injuries
-He was sent with a squad to collect the bodies of men killed in a helicopter crash
-Carried the body bags back to a company command post
-Treated a soldier that contracted a venereal disease while on R&amp;R
-Administered penicillin
-Issued daily anti-malaria pills
-Had anti-fungal medication available to him
-Most of the medical work he did involved carrying dead soldiers back to base
(00:30:40) Awareness of Firebase Ripcord Area
-Squad leaders had regional maps
-He knew where Hill 1000 was in relation to Firebase Ripcord
-He didn’t know too much else about their area of operations
-He followed orders and didn’t pay attention to their locations
-Doesn’t remember having any constant feeling of paranoia
(00:32:05) Extracting Alpha Company &amp; Battle of Hill 1000
-Remembers when D Company went into the field to rescue Alpha Company
-Camped near the helipads the night before they went into the field
-Scared about going up Hill 1000
(00:32:50) Staying on Firebase Ripcord
-Slept in a bunker made of sandbags and wood on the perimeter of Firebase Ripcord
-Remembers eating rice and fish with South Vietnamese artillerymen
-Took mortar fire and treated a sucking chest wound until the man could be evacuated
-Stayed on Firebase Ripcord between patrols
-D Company stayed at Ripcord for a few weeks pulling base security
(00:35:14) Patrols around Firebase Ripcord Pt. 2
-Saw some action in May 1970
-Moving up a hill and stopped to rest
-He looked up and saw a North Vietnamese soldier walking toward him
-Lieutenant McCall shot the enemy soldier
-Close enough that some blood and gore splattered on Steven
(00:37:20) Battle of Firebase Ripcord – Hill 1000
-On July 1, 1970, the North Vietnamese attacked Firebase Ripcord
-Remembers being told they were going out to take Hill 1000
-Walked single file up to Hill 1000
-Treated a man with a shrapnel wound in the butt
-On July 7 D Company attacked Hill 1000, and got stopped
-On July 8 D Company and C Company attacked Hill 1000 again
-C Company got up their side of the hill, but D Company was unable to get up their side
-Remembers a conscientious objector medic with C Company getting killed at Hill 1000
-First day in the field
-Colonel Lucas ordered Jeff Wilcox (commander of C Company) to attack Hill 1000 again
-Wilcox blew up at Lucas and refused to send his men in for a suicide attack
-One of the men killed at Hill 1000 was Lewis Howard
-Knew him best out of the men killed in action
-Had to leave his body behind at Hill 1000
(00:44:00) Battle of Firebase Ripcord – Extracting Delta Company &amp; Alpha Company
-On July 22, D Company went out to extract D Company of 1st Battalion of 506th Infantry Regiment

�-On July 23, D Company went out to extract A Company of 2nd Battalion of 506th Infantry Regiment
-Flew out to a landing zone near Alpha Company’s position and started walking toward them
-Heard explosions and small-arms fire, but the bulk of North Vietnamese had retreated
-At Alpha’s position he saw a lot of dead soldiers
-Started making poncho litters (litter made of sturdy branches and ponchos)
-Loaded the dead soldiers and their weapons onto helicopters
-Delta created a landing zone at Alpha’s position to extract everyone
-Heard some random small-arms fire at them, but nothing direct
-Pulled out of the area and went to Camp Evans
-On July 23, Ripcord was evacuated then destroyed by B-52 bombers
(00:49:19) Downtime Pt. 1
-Went to Eagle Beach in late June 1970
-Note: Eagle Beach – secured area on South China Sea for 101st Airborne men to relax
-Had a few stand downs at Camp Evans
-Chance to get haircuts, get new fatigues, and drink beer
(00:50:52) Medical Service at Villages
-He was pulled out of the field to work in medical staff at Camp Evans
-Went on med caps – sending out medical personnel to service villages
-He also recorded statistics from med caps
-Got to villages via trucks
-Had a South Vietnamese soldier as an interpreter and some troops for protection
-No hostilities
-Treated civilians
-Remembers a lot of children being around
-Reminded him of his experience doing a medical mission in Honduras during college
(00:53:00) Contact with Vietnamese
-The South Vietnamese interpreters were educated, friendly, and fun people to be around
-Chu Hoys were rough and focused on surviving the war
-Children were friendly and asked American soldiers for candy
-Villagers were old, led rough lives, and smoke terrible smelling cigarettes
(00:54:50) Life at Camp Evans – Drugs &amp; Race Relations
-Operated out of Camp Evans for six months doing med caps
-Chance to relax
-Avoided contact with officers
-Remembers a sergeant tried to get the men to do morning formations
-The men refused
-He insisted until someone threatened to kill him
-Smoked a lot of marijuana during his time at Camp Evans
-White and black soldiers had a place they called, “the Hole”
-Friendly environment to smoke pot together
-Quite a few men addicted to heroin
-They nodded off during guard duty
-Leadership didn’t do anything about it
-One black soldier got sent to Long Binh Jail for attempting to kill a sergeant or an officer
-Seemed like black and white soldiers got along well
(00:59:20) Contact with Home
-Got one phone call home
-Didn’t write home too much

�(00:59:40) Downtime Pt. 2
-Spent a lot of time doing photography while at Camp Evans
-Passed the time by reading, smoking pot, meditating, and playing guitar
(01:00:44) Bronze Star
-Remembers an award ceremony at Camp Evans
-He got a Bronze Star for his work during the extraction of Alpha Company
-Doesn’t understand why he got one, he felt like he was just doing his job
-Felt honored that Captain Rawlinson put in for Steven to get a Bronze Star
(01:02:25) End of Service
-He counted the days he had left on his “FTA” calendar (Fuck the Army)
-Wanted to get out of the Army as soon as possible, so he added three months to his tour in Vietnam
-This would allow him to get discharged as soon as he returned to the United States
-Didn’t want to do six months of stateside duty
-Got an early discharge in March 1971
-Flew out of Cam Ranh Bay
-Missed his original flight, so he waited two days for another flight
-Met a soldier with a severe heroin addiction hiding in a bunker
-Arrived at Fort Lewis, Washington, and given a steak dinner
-Rather than see it as a reward, it came off as insulting
-Out-processed at Fort Lewis
-Dental exam, physical, told he had hearing loss due to his exposure to gunfire
(01:07:50) Life after the War
-Went to Los Angeles to visit a friend the hitchhiked up to San Francisco
-Hitchhiked back to Mississippi to visit his family
-Returned to San Francisco and lived there for the summer of 1971
-Got an apartment and attended meditation sessions at a zen center
-Went back to Chicago to finish his master’s degree
-Got a job at KidsPeace, a children’s behavioral health association, in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
-Worked there as a social worker helping emotionally disturbed children
-Lived at a local zen center for a while
-Worked at KidsPeace for 36 years
-Still lives in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, as of 2016
(01:11:45) Reflections on Service
-His time in Vietnam led to a spiritual awakening
-Led to him meditating daily and having a holistic view of spirituality
-Didn’t have typical PTSD, but had a form of it
-Various addictions, worked a lot, occasional depression, and jumpy from loud noises
-Attended a Ripcord Association Reunion in 2013 and again in 2016
-Chance to reconnect with the men he served with, and talk about their similar experiences

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Mary Ann Gwatkin

Total Time – (58:27)

Background

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She was born November 10, 1920, in Grand Rapids, Michigan (01:47)
There were seven children in her family
Her older sister died at the age of 13 from strep throat
She her father was the mayor of East Grand Rapids, Michigan for 22 years
(04:03)
She attended elementary school at St. Stephen's School (04:51)
o It was only half of a block from her home
o Every day was started by going to mass (05:53)
o There were only thirteen students in her class
After she graduated in 1933, she went to Marywood Academy in Grand Rapids,
Michigan (07:10)
She played basketball in school
She graduated in 1938 (07:59)
During the summers her father rented a cottage in Grand Haven, Michigan
Her dad frequently asked her what she was going to do (08:58)
o She told him that she wanted to become a nurse (09:05)
She went into nurses training at St. Mary’s School (09:21)
o It was called the Mercy Central School of Nursing (09:29)
She was in nursing school for three years
She graduated in 1941 (10:12)
After she worked at St. Mary’s, she received a position at Ferguson’s Sanitarium
(11:25)
o She made seventy dollars every month
In 1941, the general feeling was that everyone wanted to help (13:44)
o She had a younger brother that was drafted into the war before the attacks
on Pearl Harbor

Enlistment/Active Duty – (14:35)
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She quit her job and enlisted in 1943 (14:38)
She enlisted into the Army Nurse Corps (14:44)

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She chose to go to Gulfport, Mississippi where she received her uniform (16:08)
o She automatically became a second lieutenant by taking the oath
 It was probably an incentive to have women join the Nurse Corps
There were nearly 120 women at Gulfport (17:03)
The women had easy access to New Orleans, Louisiana, and would go into town
after work
She was working in a hospital at Gulfport (17:25)
She served in both the Surgical and Contagious Wards (17:33)
At this time, she was 23 years old

Active Duty – Overseas Duty – (18:53)
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She then had the option of volunteering for overseas duty (18:56)
o She decided to sign up
In March of 1944, there were ten women that went up to Fort Bragg, North
Carolina, to prepare to go overseas (19:18)
She learned basic marching skills in Fort Bragg
After Fort Bragg, she was sent to Fort Kilmer, New Jersey (20:34)
o She lived in barracks while in New Jersey
 They were there for nearly three weeks
 The women were able to travel and visit New York City (21:04)
She then got on the Queen Mary to head overseas
On the Queen Mary she stayed in a small, single, state room (22:33)
There was no fresh water on board to bathe with
There were 15,000 troops on board the ship (23:19)
The trip only took four and a half days (24:41)
On the last day, some of the sailors were given tea
o It was the best tea she had ever had
She met a fellow sailor on board from Charlevoix, Michigan whose sister she was
friends with (25:18)
The ship landed in the Firth of Clyde off the coast of England [Scotland] (25:40)
When the sailors woke up they could see the English fog
o They were taken by tanker into shore (25:56)
Once she was ashore, she then took a train south to Colwyn Bay, Wales (26:52)
The military paid families to house the women by giving them money and coal to
keep their homes warm
She was assigned to the third floor of a home
o She took a bath in cold water
o The home owner turned off their electricity at 9:00 at night (27:56)
Every morning all of the soldiers would meet at a mess hall for breakfast (28:13)
The Army had lectures every day that were mandatory
They would go to mass on Sundays (28:58)
o Some of the church members opened up their homes for soldiers to be able
to take baths

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Once she left Colwyn Bay, she was sent to Oswestry, England (29:35)
o At Oswestry, she was assigned to the 68th General Hospital
The 68th General Hospital was a new hospital that had recently been built
The nurses quarters were extremely nice
She went to Liverpool, England while she was in Colwyn Bay (32:31)
Before she went to Oswestry, she was on detached service in Hatfield, England
(32:56)
In Hatfield there was a huge tent that had cots along all the walls
When she was there she could see the B-17 turning from the continent on their
flights (34:15)
There was one time when an air raid made her wet her pants because she was so
scared (35:01)
After Hatfield, she was then assigned to the 68th General Hospital (35:36)
She was assigned to a psychiatrist (35:41)
o She did not know anything about psychiatry
She applied for a leave on what would have been D-Day
When she was signing in to a hotel she heard Winston Churchill speaking on the
radio about the invasion of Normandy (36:35)
The American soldiers were not supposed to be in London at this time
When she returned to the hospital, they began receiving casualties and injuries
(38:41)
o They were flown back
o The triage was out on the lawn of the hospital
o Doctors would go along and decide who goes where (39:00)
As troops moved forward in Europe, the hospitals nearer the coast would receive
more soldiers than their hospital would
One of the Major’s at the hospital would use medicines and battle re-enactments
to relate to soldiers and get them to talk about their experiences
She was sent on detachment to train for two weeks in Portsmouth, England
(41:53)
She crossed the English Channel during the summer of 1945 (43:21)
o They landed in Le Havre, France
o The buildings were bombed out (44:53)
She was sent to Neufchatel, France
One night she was invited to an Air Corps party where there was great food and
beer
There were no patients in Neufchatel
She was then sent to a staging area that had a hospital in Mourmelon-le-Grand,
France (47:06)
She worked at the hospitals in Mourmelon-le-Grand
It was here where she met up with her brother (48:08)
o She continuously tried to communicate with her brother so that she could
meet up with him
She was invited to a party when he brother was visiting and she was able to bring
him along (49:36)

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After her time with her brother, she received a 3-day pass to Paris (50:38)
o It was V-J Day when she went
o She enjoyed her time in Paris
Before V-J Day, it was rumored that the European forces would go through the
Panama Canal and invade Japan (52:20)
She then traveled back to Mourmelon-le-Grand and then boarded a ship to leave

After the Service – (53:25)
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Her ship landed in Boston, Massachusetts (53:30)
o It was an extremely thrilling day
From Boston, she traveled by train to Fort Dix, New Jersey where she received
her discharge papers (54:07)
She was then put on another train and traveled to Detroit, Michigan and then
eventually to Grand Rapids, Michigan (54:26)
o She was in home for Christmas of 1945
Because of the pension that she received from the military, she took a couple of
months to enjoy her time (55:39)
o Her father continued to ask her if she was going to go to work
Once her money ran out she went to St. Mary’s and took a position there
She worked at St. Mary’s for nearly a year and a half
She was asked by another local doctor to go and work for him (56:24)
o She began working for him in Lowell, Michigan in 1947
She did not have a way of getting back and forth to work so she went and bought
a car with her savings (58:01)
The car salesman and her began dating and got married a year later in 1948
(58:27)

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                    <text>Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Dani DeVasto
Interviewee: Laureen Hackett
Date: June 16th, 2021
DD: I am Dani DeVasto and today, June 16th, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Loreen
Hackett. Hi Loreen.
LH: Hi.
DD: Loreen, can you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live?
LH: I am from and still live in Hoosick Falls, New York.
DD: And, have you lived there your whole life?
LH: Mostly, on and off I moved around a little bit but, I’ve been here, like, 45 years [chuckles]
combined, so.
DD: Alright, Loreen can you tell me a story please about your experience with PFAS or with
PFAS in your community?
LH: The PFAS awareness issue began here in basically it was presented to the village board in
August of 2014 and then began the debacle of how the state did not [chuckles] help Hoosick falls
for almost a year and a half, they didn’t even tell us to stop drinking the water until EPA stepped
in end of November 2015 is when we finally got the do not drink order. Our levels here were
extreme and blood testing that started in February with results coming in April, May, also
revealed extraordinary levels, scary levels in our- in our blood in all our residents. And from then
on, we started a Twitter page, PFOA Project New York, and we- it was in the beginning to, one
bring awareness but two we were also clamoring for hearings on what went wrong with the
department of health and all that. So, it was sort of to bring shame but also, you know,
awareness- my grandchildren were in the top 3 [chuckles] tested for their levels and at the time
they were age 4 and 6. I am in the top 50 and- once the do not drink order came about in, we’ll
say December 2015, I started doing research because I have all these health problems that are
just weird. They’re nothing that none of my family has and whatnot, so I’ve always been
wondering what happened. Well, I got some answers once I started doing research on PFAS and
health effects, and I have continued to do that for the last 5 years, and it gets more and more
[chuckles] dire every day to the point now that I’m working with- a university, we’re collecting
health studies as part of our site study that we were worded through CDC and so we- we had
been sharing the monthly and we’re starting on their site, now we’re going to weekly because so
many studies are now coming out fast and furious and none of its good news. So, I- as- at the
beginning I thought my Twitter page was finite, I thought once we got our hearings and once we
started getting some regulations I could lay off, but this issue has just, literally popped since. So
I’ve continued it, my page has grown, and I almost feel obligated because so many communities
are going through what we went through in the beginning. So, you know, I want my page to be
1

�reflective of awareness for a mom or dad that just found out that their water has too much PFOA
in it and they can go to my page and it's easier reading stuff. I do post health studies I find if they
feel like delving into those. But more, you know, general here’s a, you know, a video, here’s
what this states doing here, you know so that you can understand- so that someone who- cause
this is not easy stuff to [chuckles]- to understand by any means with so many acronyms, I mean
that took 2 years to get them all down.
Both: [laughter]
LH: You know, and with more coming out now as we start digging into replacement chemicals,
so I try to keep it as user friendly as possible, although I will post the health studies that I find.
DD: Mhm
LH: So, it’s been a job, it’s been a full-time job for me for the last 5 years and now I’m on, I
don’t even know how many committees. I’m working with National Academy of Sciences as a
community liaison, I was invited to speak at their East Coast panels they just had the last month
or so, I am a co-chair of our community working group here because we have 3 federal super-fun
sites, the 1st in the nation for PFOA, there’s 2 state sites and their looking at 5 more, so this tinyyeah, we got Chernobyl-d with PFAS. So, among that, I’m part of the national coalition for
PFAS- oh gosh, I’m on our cap committee for our site study, [chuckles] so it just goes on andI’m always- and now, the last couple years I’ve been writing and helping draft legislation,
whether it be in New York state or federally and we have some great partners inside our general
brands office, which is the next bill I’m working on and New York state I work with a lot of the
environmental orgs, been to D.C., I think 7 times, I’ve submitted testimony at 2 congressional
hearings, [chuckles] I’ve been invited to Alaska to do seminar there, I’ve been to- I’ve beentravelled all over the place for conferences and it’s just- I dove in head first, head first because I
just feel like I need- given this is our health, this is the health of my family, this is the long term
health of my grandchildren, I’m one of those, I’m a nerd, I need the data, I need the info, I’ll read
as much as I can of it even though it’s sickening and depressing and arduous at times I just keep
doing it.[chuckles] So, but until the issue stops, until it’s banned or I don’t need it, you know, we
don’t need to do it anymore. So, that’s one of the things I’m working really hard on and also, you
know, I’m a- I’d like to think I’m the biggest advocate for children’s health, because if you look
at Hoosick Falls, you know, a lot of us, good majority of us have been here our whole lives.
We’re toast, there’s no helping us at this point. But if we can help our children to not end up like
us and give ‘em half a chance, and it may already be too late given, you know, the levels that
they were drinking. But man, that’s the goal, you know, if not for us, you know, older folks, then
for the kids. They didn’t sign up to drink poison, you know, so whatever I can do to help just
keep pushing that.
DD: Mhm, so what happened in Hoosick Falls? Why is it the Chernobyl that you call it?
LH: So, the history of Teflon, it really goes back to the history of Teflon. We had our first plant
open here in 1956, so-.
DD: Wow.
2

�LH: Yeah [laughs], it was called flea dodge and then, we- it just was a little industrial town. We
had like 8, 10 factories running all at the same time at one point so, now all these factories have
contaminated, are still contaminating, we still have 2 sites of Saint-Gobain that are still
operating, and this is becoming a huge battle now too because, while New York state has
declared them hazardous substances, and they did that back in 2016, which allowed them to get
state super-fun site status then onto federal in July of ’17. But they’re still operating, and while
PFOA and PFAS have been stewardshipped out, [unclear] the replacement chemicals, which we
are finding, which aren’t regulated. So, we’re back to square one and we also know now through
all the ongoing health research, that the replacement chemicals are just as bad, if not worse. So,
this is going to be an ongoing- we just literally 2 weeks ago, 3 weeks ago had a PRAP from
DEC, a Proposed Remediation Action Plan, for new water sources. So, we had a municipal gack
filtration system on the municipal water and all the well owners got POET’s, which is Point-ofEntry Treatment systems on their wells. But we’d been looking and looking and looking for a
new water source for 5 years.
DD: Wow.
LH: And so- yeah so, they’re- the proposal’s out now with comment due, I think at the end of
the month and then we roll from there and however many years it’s gonna take to get those going
and. But, in the meantime, we’re back to square one with the replacement chems and we had this
argument with DEC while we’re still being contaminated [laughs]. Until they’re regulated, I
can’t think of a better term than we’re shit outta luck. Which is, I suppose, you know where most
industrial communities contaminated are too, until they’re- till more regulated we’re just gonna
keep breathing them in. And the stacks from these plants is what contaminated us in the first
place, all this stuff literally, the best explanation is, came outta the- it snowed on us for decades.
Snow hit the soil, it came through the soil and hit all our water tables and aquifers and it’s still
snowing. There is no regulation to make them put controls on the stacks to control the emissions,
it’s not regulated. So, this is the next battle, or current battle, actually.
DD: Wow. [laughs]
LH: Yeah.
DD: So, it sounds like you were able to get some movement, some help- some help from kind of
local governments and things but not- not all the way.
LH: So, our water’s filtered, ok so that- you know, alright so we’ll at least stop the exposure that
way. But the exposure happened because of what’s coming out of the stacks hasn’t been
remedied, other than the 2 being phased out by 2015, and EPA did an air stack test here last year
which showed the replacement chems, the shorter chains, plus, I don’t remember if it was 15 or
20 long chain PFAS that all, you know, seems like every researcher will tell you are worse for
the humans. There were C8’s through C18’s that they couldn’t even identifyDD: Wow.

3

�LH: -that we’re being exposed to this very minute 3 blocks from my house, and nothings been
done about it. So, [laughs] you know you- you’d think with what we’ve learned even just the
past 5 years, you know, you look at Rob Bilott’s story right, he’s been doing this for 20 plus, and
I can’t imagine 15 more years of this and being no further along, that man must be a saint
because [laughs] I have the patience of a fence post.
Both: [laughter]
LH: I’m thinking 5 years and I’m still [unclear] I’d be banging my head off the wall, I’d
probably give up which is maybe what they’re hoping for, you know.
DD: Mhm.
LH: But I’d like to think that the last 5 years with community after community, you know with
us and p’s and West Virginia and [cape fear] and, you know, now it’s all Michigan, it’s all
headline news. So, I don’t think we’ll slide backwards, so that’s good news but we still need
more regs and hopefully a non-essential use ban on all of them, the EU is doing it between 2023
and 2025. Maine just passed, a week ago, a non-essential use ban by 2030 in all products, so now
there’s precedent so, bills are coming, I can tell you that, on non-essential use bans and we have
the PFAS Action Act out now and Senator Jill Brand has done some wonderful bills with us. I
did a Facebook Live event with her and Rob Bilott and Mark Ruffalo to announce the PFAS
Accountability Act that she came her and introduced as well. So, they’ve been- Congressman
Delgado has been great, he’s on the PFAS Task Force, he was just here 2 weeks ago, so they’ve
been- we’ve been lucky to have some really attentive elected, you know, representatives.
Congressman Tonko, he’s right on this and he’s right here in Albany next to us. Senator Schumer
is well behind all the ‘get rid of PFAS’ stuff, so we’ve been lucky there, luckier than a lot of
states. But, again, are we lucky that we’re still being contaminated? [laughs] You know, they’re
coming down on DOD now, you know, it’s the head of the snake, and it’s a whole different
animal. And that was from, you know, the firefighting foams and whatnot. So, once you stop
using firefighting foams and clean up the contamination, then your exposures could- supposedly
done, yeah? Well, ours isn’t.
DD: Right.
LH: So, it’s 2 different battles but the same dragon, right?
DD: What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward?
LH: That they’re not doing enough quickly to stop exposure. Number 1, you have to stop the
exposures any way possible, knowing how even the lowest doses, the lowest grains of salt in this
bioaccumulate in children and cause health problems. There is no doubt now that they cause
health problems, so stopping exposure has to be first and foremost and whether that’s in the air,
water, food, cosmetics, wherever it’s coming from, especially contaminated communities. Cause
we’ve been told by our health departments we have to lower our exposures, right so I have this
huge level, in parts per trillion it’s 266.

4

�DD: Wow.
LH: Yeah, so I have to go out of my way to not eat microwave popcorn, use Teflon- right cause
I have to do- it’s gonna take me 20, 30 years to get that down to the [chuckles] EPA accepted
level of 70 at the time, right? Well, if I can’t find it in the products, how am I supposed to lower
my exposures? And they keep accumulating. So, will I die with this stuff in me? Likely, yes.
Likely, yes. I’m gonna have just an extraordinary amount and I’ve never stepped foot in a
factory. So, until we know where it’s coming from and stopping exposure, it’s just gonna keep
building up and making people sick. So, that’s gotta be number 1. So, that would entail, right,
you know, regulating all of them coming into any drinking water sources, all of them coming
through the air because, you know, inhalation and dermal exposure and all that. Things in kid’s
products, any- all of it it’s just- and there hasn’t been one found to be non-toxic out of the 92
hundred that are out there that we know of. Not one has come out and say, ‘this is absolutely
non-toxic’. NTP and IEHS, they haven’t found that list yet. So, it’s frustrating to see
congressional people saying ‘you don’t need to- we can do these 1 by 1’ yes, it’ll take 1,020
years. [laughs] okay, you know. But yeah, you have to stop the exposures, however it has to be
done. Whether it’s rewriting all of Tasca, cause it’s ass-backwards. We have to start taking a
precautionary principle, especially with this class of chemicals. They’re horrid.
DD: Did you have any- you said that was number 1 concern that you had.
LH: Number 1, we have to stop the exposures, yeah. And then, you know, then we have to look
at clean up and that’s only once [chuckles] we can get the exposures stopped. Can’t clean it up if
you’re still getting exposed. For here, for some place like Hoosick falls, we’re never gonna clean
up our soil and stuff it just- you can’t dig down 30, 40 feet around every single house and bring
us all new dirt, you know, so that won’t happen. And even though we have superfund sites, it
only is site specific. We’ll only clean up around that site, not the homes 3 doors down from it,
you know. So, you know, in stopping- I mean this stuff lasts forever, right? Its hundreds and
hundreds of years in the soil, lord knows you can’t get it out of an entire aquifer, at least
technology’s not there yet. Even trying to destroy it or, you know, burning it. We just had an
issue nearby at Norlite, Cohoes and we found that they were burning it without telling anybody,
the PFAS, A triple F foam. [laughs] So, that was a whole nightmare. The county executives put
out a moratorium for a year to stop them from burning it, and then we passed a bill in New York
State to ban burning it temporarily unless EPA comes up with some new-fangled method that
would make it safe. So, this is- I often refer to PFAS as the mutant octopus, because once you
think you’ve cut off one arm, 8 more grow out and it’s constant it’s always an evolving issue, it’s
not a simple, ‘we can do this, this, this and have it stop’. Well, we did this and then 2 other issues
came out of that and then once we did those, we got 4 more, so it’s a ever-evolving mutant
octopus whose arms, they can never quite get wrapped around. So, it’s just regulation after
regulation and hopefully they’ll smarten up and do them in a class and ban them, just ban them.
DDT and PCB times 100, it’s that much worse.
DD: Before we wrap up today, is there anything you’d like to add that we haven’t touched on or
that you would like to go back to and say more about?

5

�LH: I think, you know, people don’t generally call their congress people for things. People are
reluctant advocates, unless it’s an issue like this that hits close to home. I think the more people
that yell, the better off we’ll be. The more pressure we put on them- elections matter. So, things
that you might’ve taken for granted before, it’s time we step out of ourselves and start really
yelling. And the more normal people- ‘normal’ [laughs]- ordinary citizens that say we’ve had
enough of this, we’re sick of being- having all these toxic chemicals in our stuff, then that will
change. And I think that those of us that’ve been advocating for this issue for the past 5 years
have proven, we can make change. And we’re moms, we’re, you know, grandmas, we’re sisters,
you know. We’re not anybody special, but it’s just a topic that hit us, and we proved that we can
change, we can make change if we’re loud enough. So, I’d like to think that, as more people
wake up to the nightmare of this, it’s in 49 states, everybody’s gonna be facing- if they look
they’re finding it, so that’s the sad part, that everybody needs to just start yelling to make things
happen, and it can be done. I think that’s it. And, you know, again we have to help our next
generation, we have to help our children, we have to help our grandchildren. This just isn’t- and
the more we learn about PFAS, suddenly the more you’re learning about other toxic chemicals
that are coming to light, like phthalates and, you know, all these other things that are also
harming endocrine systems and immune systems. You just can’t help but notice it when you’re
reading health studies, these other ones pop up on the side, you know, and you’re like, ‘oh man
BPA’ and you’re like, ‘ah geez we’re just- we’re screwed’ [laughs] and unless we make some
changes, you know, you start with one issue and I still even have a hard time- this is like 30
hours a week on just a Twitter page reading health studies, I haven’t even delved into these other
things yet but I know, you know, anything they have seen [unclear] immune system is horrific.
But [chuckles] how did this happen, you know, how does this keep happening? It’s cause our
laws are backwards. So, maybe, you know, that’s something everybody else can keep focusing
on as we talk about climate change and effects of bad regulation or no regulation, this really
needs to be looked at too, or we won’t be here for the climate to change, cause we’re all gonna
have cancer and die, [laughter] you know. And I’ve had cancer, so I kind of speak from
experience on that one. I just don’t want it for my grandkids.
DD: Yeah, absolutely. Well Loreen, thank you for taking the time to share your story today.
LH: Thank you for having me and thank you for this project. All necessary awareness is vital
and dire now, so it’s great.
DD: Thank you.

6

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'ED:

-----A.D.1948;

-AAY

'

'

1-f:tJ t)

',

�..

ORIGI NAL

►,

... ..

LAW OFFI CES OF

JOSEPH T. RILEY

,/

MUSK EGON, MICHIGAN

UBE;

363 PAGE 338

THIS MORTGAGE, made a.s of the
BETWEEN::

28th

day of May, .A. D• .,1948

MUSKEGON HOUSE OF JEVVISH WORSHIP,Va non-profit corpora-

tion organ.iz€d and exi.sting under and by virtue of the laws of the
State of Michigan., with it ' s principal office in the City and
County of Muskegon.,. M:,9higan, as JtMORTGAGOR", and THE HACKLEY
UNION NATION.AL BAN'~Jtf Muskegon, a National Banking Association
with it ' s principal office in the City and County of Muskegon, Mich
igan, as -"MORTGAGEE",

That the mortgagor for and in consideration of the sum of
Sixty Five Thousand ($65,000.00) dollars, to it paid by the
mortgagee, the receipt whBreof is hereby confessed and acknowledged
and for the purpose of secur-ing the repayment of said sum, with
interest, as hereinafter provided, and the performance of th€
covenants of the mortgagor her•e inafter contained, her€by grants,
bargains, sells, aliens, releases, conveys.,. assigns, transfers,
mortgages and warrants unto the mortgagee all those certain
:pieces or parcels of land situated in the City of Muskegon, County
of duskegon and State of Michigan, more particularly described as
follows, to-wit:
Lot 1 of Block 336 of the Revised Plat
of the City of Muskegon, adopted .April
9th, 1903 and of record in the office
of the Register of Deeds for the County
of Muskegon, Michigan.
together with all reversions and remainders in and to said pt'emises
and each and every part thereof, and together with any and all
buildings, additions., improvements and appurtenances thereunto
appertaining and now or hereafter con~.t ructed or placed upon
LAW OFFICES OF

JOSEPH T. RI LEY

the aforesaid description of real estate., or any part thereof:

715 HACK i.EV U NION
NAT'L BANK BLDG.

MUSKEGON, MICHIGAN

-1-

�tt8E~

3(j3 rAG£33'-J
.

TO HAVE AND TO HOLD, ,the.
jfropei; ty above mortgaged and con.
veyed by the mortgagor as aforesaid unto the mortgagee and to
it's successors and assigns, to the sole and only proper use,
benefit and behoof of the said mortgagee, it ' s successors and
assigns, FOREVER.
And the said mortgagor for itself, it ' s successors and
assigns, hereby covenants with the said mortgagee, it ' s successors
and assigns, as follows, to-wit::
1.

Said mortgagor will pay to the said mortgagee, it's

successors and assigns , the said sum of sixty five thousand

($65,000.00) dollars with interest at the rate of four (4%) per
cent per annum , according to the terms of a certain promissory
note bearing even daiEherewith, executed by the

mortgagor to the

mortgagee, and payment of said sum of sixty five thousand ($65,000.00)
dollars to be in manner and form as follows: The sum of six thousand
or more
.,, ,./"J;/
($6,000.00) dollars/on the
J,d _.
day of November.,, A. D., 1948, and
or more
.-1 (/:,,;{
the sum of one thousand ($1,000.00) dollars/on the
,✓-d
day of
December, A. D., 1948, and like sums of one thousand ($1,000.00)
or more
dollars;each on the same and corresponding date or dates of each
and every succeeding and successive month after the month of
December 1948 until all sums secured by this mortgage have been
fully paid.

The interest mentioned above shall be computed, monthly

~ith the first payment of interest to be due on the

!'&gt;"l--, 7

/

Jf_

day of

June, A. D., 1948 and monthly thereafter on the same date of each
and every succeeding and successive month thereafter until principal
payments become due hereunder and then monthly interest payments
shall be made at the same time as the principal payments are required
to be made under the terms and provisions hereinbefore set forth. ~
Principal or interest not paid \hen due shall bear interest at the
rate of five (5%) percent per annum: provided however that all of
the principal and any interest thereon shall be paid in full not
later then five (5) years from the date of these presents.
- 2. It is further understood and agreed that this mot'tgage
shall be and stand as security for the repayment of the present
-2-

�indebtedness of the mortgagor to the mortgagee as represented
by the promissory note aforesaid, as well as for any extensions
or renewals, of the same, should such extensions or renewals be
subsequently agreed upon by the parties hereto.
3.

The mortgagor further covenants and agrees that it is

lawfully seized and possessed of the mortgaged property free of
liens and encumbrances, and that it has good right and lawful
authority to convey and mortgage the same, and that it will
warrant and defend the same unto the mortgagee, it ' s successors
and assigns, against all demands or claims of any person, firm
or corporation whatsoever, and that it will not at any time create
or allow to accrue or exist any othet' lien having priority to
this mortgage upon the mortgaged property, or any part thereof.
4.

The mortgagor further covenants and agrees that it

will at all tim-e s preserve and maintain said mortgaged property,
and every part thereof, in thorough repair, working order and
condition, and that it will, from time to time, make all needful
and proper repair and renewals so t hat the efficiency of the
mortgaged property and every part thereof, shall at all times
be maintained and the mortgage security will not in any.wise
be impaired.
5.

Said mortgagor further covenants and agrees that it will

pay ' and discharge any taxes, assessments or governmental char-ges
at anytime levied upon or existing against th€ mortgagor, the
mortgaged property or any interest therein, and that it will not
do or suffer to be done any matter or thing whatsoever whereby
the lien of this mortgage may be impaired, provip_ed however, that
the mortgagor .shall not be required to pay any such taxes,
assessments or any other govermnental charges so long as it shall in
good faith contest the validity thereof, and if such contest is
made, the mortgagor shall provide for the payment thereof, in a
manner satisfactory· to the mortgagee.
-3-

�L;. •

6.

/

Said Mortgagor covenants and agrees that it will at

all times keep the mortgaged premises insured against loss and
damage by fire and against such other risks to the mortgaged
p~operty as the mortgagee shall determine, with insurers

and

to an amount approved by the mortgagee and will deliver such
policies of insurance with receipts showing full payment of

v'

all premiums upon such policies to the mortgagee.
7.

If the mortgagor shall make default in the payment

of any of the aforesaid taxes or assessments, or in procuring
or maintaining insurance, or in making necessary repairs, as
above covenanted, said mortgagee, it's successors and assigns,
may pay such taxes, effect such insurance and/or make such repairs, and the sums so paid shall be a further 11,e n upon said
property under this mortgage, payable forthwith, with interest
at the rate of 5% per annum.
8.

The mortgagor covenants and agrees that at any time

upon the request of the mortgagee that it will execute,
acknowledge and deliver all necessary further assura nces of title
and such additional papers and instruments and will do or cause
to be done all such acts and things proper and reasonably
necessary for effectually carrying out the provisions of this
mortgage, and any evidence of indebtedness secured hereby, as may
be requested by the mortgagee.
9.

·.1.·he mortgagor covenants and agrees not to suffer or

commit waste upon any of the mortgaged property, and to comply
with all governmental regulations and instructions concerning
said premises., or the use or occupancy thel'.'eof, or in any.wise
applying to the same.
10.

Bhould default be made in the payment of said principal

or interest or taxes or insurance premium, or any part thereof,
or any installment of principal or interest when the same are
-4-

�UBE?.

363 fAG£ 342
' '

payable as above provided, or 'in' any of ·' the other covenants of
the mortgagor hereunder, then the aforesaid principal sum, with
all arrearages of interest, taxes and insur ance premiums,
together with all other sums secur-ed hereby, shall, a t the option
of the said nortgagee, it's successors and assigns, without notice,
become payable immediately "bherBafter although the period above
noted for the payment thereof shall not then have expir-ed, anything
herein contained to the contr-ary thereof in any.wise notwithstanding.
11.

Upon default being made in any of the aforesaid

covenants, or in the terms of the note or notes secured her-eby,
the said mortgagee, it's successors and assigns, a r-e hereby authorized and empowered to grant, bargain, sell, rel·e ase and convey the
said mortgaged property at publ ic auction or vendue, and on such
sale to execute and deliver to the purchaser or purchasers good, ample,
and sufficient deed or deeds of conveyance in law pursuant to the
statute in such case made and provided, rendering the surplus money,
if any, to the mortgagor , it's successors and assigns, after- the
payment of the moneys due hereon, and the cost, fees and charges
of such proceedings, vendues and sales aforesaid, including the
maximum attorney fees allowed by law over and above all legally taxed
costs, and at the option of the mortgagee , all property covered
hereby may be sold in one lot or parcel as an entirety.
12.

All the covenants and agreements herein contained

pertaining or applicable to the real estate shall run with the
land and all shall be binding upon and inure to th€ benefit of
the respective successors and assigns of the parties hereto.
I N ViITNESS WHEREOF, the said mortgagor has caused these
presents to be signed by it ' s President and Secretary acting under
authority of the ,Board of Trustees of said corporation and has

-5-

�affixed : ereto it's corporate seal all as of the day first above
written.

Signed, sealed and
delivered in the
presence of:

STATE OF MICHIGA,

)

COUNTY OF MUSKEGON) SS

4th

On this

day of June, A. D., 1948, before me a Notary

Public in and for said County and State, personally came Leos. Rosen
and Morris Teles, who being by me duly sworn, did each for himself
depose and say that they are the President and _Secretary respectively
of the :Muskegon House of Jewish Worship, a non-profit Michigan
corporation, and that they e:xecut-e d the foregoing mortgage for and on
behalf of said corporation and had authority so to do from the
Board of Trustees of said corporation, and that the execution and
delivery t hereof was the free act and deed of said corpor ation and
.'.J hat the seal impressed thereon is the corporate seal of said

,.,
, _; STATE

i

c.orporation.
1"·
MICHIGAN I

County of Muskegon

5• L/- )).

"

ReceiveE o
Record
r
this_.,,.._ ½A'
A. D. 19.•~

J:·--- -..........
and recorded
I. , Lib -~" .oL. .•
--··-4h➔t,
:?,_.1 .

dar

c.t

~,~?r-·-el._M.

~

e - ___ ___

t.

--,i';,,~ ~

~arA.

Register of Deeds

-6-

�ORIGINAL

LAW OFFICES OF

,,

JOSEPH T. RILEY
MUSKEGON, MICHIGAN

1

�</text>
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                  <text>Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue.</text>
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                  <text>Synagogues</text>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan</text>
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                  <text>Preston, Marilyn</text>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives</text>
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                <text>Hackley Union National Bank of Muskegon</text>
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                <text>Muskegon House of Jewish Worship mortgage</text>
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                <text>Muskegon House of Jewish Worship mortgage with the Hackley Union National Bank of Muskegon, May 1948.</text>
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                <text>Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                  <elementText elementTextId="879123">
                    <text>NORTGAGE

MUSKEGON HOUSE OF JEWISH llORSHIP
A non- pro::'i t Mi~higo.n corporation

to

~
HACKLEY UNION !JATIOHAL BAI:K
OF MUSKEGO!J, MICHIGAN
A National Banking Associntion

Dated :
December

__

3d ,

)

A. D. , 1952

)

STATE OF MICHIG AN .
County of Muskegon

1

Received J~r K'eccrd thi.
day of ..- ~ ·- . 4 [)

aL ___(;_~f!__-~ o·c1cck

_J':'~
0

_..$- ~

A·

1 : •

. 1-// /
.,,
~ /"/·:r""'4-9''-"'

.

GISTER OF UEEOJ

~

·.'•.•,

.

�LAW OFFICES OF

JOSEPH T. RILEY

....

MUt.,st!W014.1WtcHIGAN

ewww:,

~-

~;~□

422 rAGE1_ru-

MO R T G A G E
**➔}~➔!-•?t-•~ ➔!-

THIS MORTGA&lt;"'' made as of the Third

day of December

A. D. , 1952, betwec,14:~GON HOUSE OF JEWISH WORSHIP, n nonprofit corporation organized and existing under and by virtue of
'
th laws of the State of Michigan, with its principal office in
City and County of Muskegon, Michigan, as

11

MORTGAGOR 1:, and

HACKLEY UNION NATIONAL BANK OF MUSKEGON, a National Banking
Associatlon, with its principal office in the City and County of
Muskegon, Michigan, as

11

MORTGAGEE 11

,

WITNESSETH:
That the mortgagor for and in consideration of the sum
of Twenty-seven Thousand ($27,000.00) Dollars, to it paid by the
mortgagee, the receipt whereof is hereby confessed and acknowledged, and for the purpose of securing the repa.yment of said
sum, with interest , as hereinafter provided, and the performance
of the covenants of the mortgagor hereinafter contained, hereby
gre.nts, bargains, sells, aliens, releases, conveys, assigns,
transfers, mortgages and warrants unto the mortgagee esll those
certain pieces or parcels of land situated in the City of
Muskegon, County of Muskegon and State of i.fichigan, more
particulcrly described as follows, to-wit :
Lot One (1) of Block Three Hundred Thirty-six
(336) of the Revised Plat of the City of
Muskegon, adopted April 9, 1903, and of record
in the office of the Register of Deeds for the
County of Muskegon, Michigan •. .. .. . ...........
ogether with all reversions and remainders in and to said
1·e111ises and each and every part thereof, and together with any
-1LAW OFF ICES

JOSEPH T. RILEY
7 15 H A CKL EY U NIO N
N AT ' L B ANK B L OG.
M USKE GON, MI C H IGAN

(

�LIBE1

422 PAGE420

and all buildings , additions, improvements and appurtenances
thereunto appertaining and now or hereafte~ constructed or
placed upon the aforesaid description of real estate, or any pa rt
thereof:,
TO HAVE AND TO HOLD the property above mortgaged and
conveyed by the mor tgagor as aforesaid unto the mortgagee and to
its successors and assigns, to the sole and only proper use,
benefit and behoof of the said mortgagee, its successors and
assigns, FOREVER.
And the said mortgagor for itself, its successors and
assigns. hereby covenants wi th the said mortgagee, its successors
and assigns, as follows, to-wit:,
1.

Said mortgagor will pay to the said mortgagee, its

successors and assigns 7 t he said sum of Twenty-seven Thousand
($27,000.00) Dollars; with interest at the rate of four per cent
per annum, according to the terms of a certain promissory note
bearing even date herewith, executed by t he mortgagor t o the
mortgagee, and payillent of said sum of Twenty-seven Thousand
($27,000.00) Dollars shall be in manner and form as follows~
The sum of Two Hundred Fifty ($250.00) Dollars per month for a
period of sixty consecutive months from and after the date
hereof, and at the expiration of said sixty month period, the
monthly payments shall be Three Hundred ($300.00) Dollars per
month for forty consecutive months.
due on the

The first payment shall be

28th day of December A. D., 1952 and subsequent

payments as above set forth shall be due and payable on the same
date of each and every succeeding and successive month thereafter
until all sums secured by this mortgage have been fully paid.
The interest mentioned above shall be computed monthly on all

LAW OFFI C E S

JOSEPH T. RILEY
715 HACKLEY U N ION
N AT'L BAN K BLOG.

MUSKEGON, MICHIGA N

-2-

�✓

uiER

422 PAGE 4.21

sums unpaid f rom ti me to t:.me and i nte re s t p2.yments shall be
made in additi on to th

,J rinci pal payments and at the s ame time

p rinc i pal payment s are requir ed to be made under t ne terrns and
p rovisi ons he reinbefor e set for t h .

P r inci pal o r i nter es t no t

paid ~hen a ue shall bea r interest at the r a te of f i v e pe r cent
pe r annum.
2.

lt i s further uncierstood anci. ag reed t hat t his

mo rt gag e shall be anci s t a na as secu rity f o r t ne repayment of t he
resent indebtedness of t he mo rtg ag or t o the ino rt gagee a s
re p rese nted by t he ~r omis so ry no t e afore sai d , as ~ell as fo r a ny
ext en s i on or r enewal s , of t he s ame , should s uch extens ions o r
renewals be sub se quently ag reed upon by t he pa rties hereto .
3.

The mo rtg ago r furt her covenants and a grees that i t

is lawfully seized and possessed of t ne mortgaged ,) ro _p erty fre e
of liens and encumbr anc es, except a certa in mo rtg ag e dat ed
May 28, 1 948, between t he pa rt ies ne reto and rec orded in Liber
363 of mo rtgages a t pag e 338, in the office of Reg i s t e r of
Deeds for tne County of 111.uslcegon, iilli chigan, and furt her referred
to herein , and that it has good ri ght anc l awful a utho rity to
convey and mortgag e t he same , a nd tha t it vd ll 1;.- arr ant and defen
t he s ame unto the rnortgag ee, its succe ssor s and assigns , against
all demands or clai ms of any pe r son, firm , or co r po r a t ion wha t soever, and. tna t it v, ill no t a t a ny time create o r allow t o a cer e
or exist any other l ien having ~ riority to this mortgage uJ on
the mortg aged p ro perty, or any pa rt t he reof .
4.

The mo rtgago r f urthe r covenants and ag rees tha t it

~ il l a t all times p reserve and maintain said mortgag ed p roperty,
and every part t hereof, in thorough re pair, working o r de r and
condition, and ti."1at it wi ll , from ti me to time, make all needful
and p ro per repai r and renewals so tha t t he efficiency of the

LAW OFFICES

JOSEPH T . RILEY
71!5 HACKLEY UNION
NAT'L B AN K BLDG ,

MUSKEGON, MICHIGAN

- 3-

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✓

mortgaged y r o::i erty and every pa rt tnereof , shall at all ti mes
be maint ained. and the mo r tgage security vdll no t in any wise
be impaired .
5.

Said mortgagor furt he r covenants and agrees that it

will pay and di scharge any taxe s, assessments , or governmental
cha rges at anytime levied u pon or existing against t he mor t gago r ,
tne mortgaged p rope rty or any i nterest therein , and that it
will not do or suffer to be do ne any m tter or t hing whatsoever
wnereby the lien of thi s mo rtgage illay be impaired , ~rovided
hov,ever, that tne mortgagor shall not be re q_ui red to _)ay a ny
sucn t axes , assess1i1ents o r any other governmental c harges so
long as it shall in good faith contest the validity tne reof ,
and. if such conte s t is mad e, the mo rt gag or shall p rovi d e for the
payment t L1e reof , in a. manner satisfactory to the mortgagee .
6.

Said mortgagor covenants and agrees that i t will

at all ti mes keep t ne

ortgaged p remises insured agains t loss

and damage by fire and agains t such othe r risks to t he mortgaged
property as the ,110 r t gagee shall deter.mine , -,, i th insu rers and
to an amount app r oved by the mortgagee and will deli ve r such
policies of insurance v, i th recei pts showing full payment of
all p remium s upon such pol icies to the mortgagee .
7.

I f the mortgagor shall make default in t he payment

of any of t he afo res a i d t axes or assessments , or in p rocur ing
or Qainta ining insurance , or in making necessary repai rs , as

above covenanted , said mo rtgage e, its su ccess o rs and assigns ,
may pay such taxes , effec t such i nsur ance and/or make such
repairs , and the sums so paid shall be a further lien upon s a id
property unde r this mortg age , payable forthwith, with intere s t
at t he rate of 5% per annum .
8.

The mortgagor covena nts and agrees that at any

time upon the request of the mo r tgagee tha t it ~ill execute ,

L A W OFF I CES

JOSEPH T. RILEY
7 1 !5 HAC KLEY UNIO N

N AT'L B AN K BLOG.

MUSKEGO N , MICHIGAN

-4-

�.,.

/
UBE~

422 FAG£ 423

acknowledge and deliver all necessary further assurances of
title and such additional pape rs and instruments and ~ill do
or cause to be done all such a cts and things ' roper and
reasonably necessary for effectually carrying out the p rovisions
of this mo rtg ag e , and any evidence of indebteoness secured
hereby , as may be re qu ested by the mortg&amp;gee .
9.

The mortgagor covenants and ag rees not to suffe r

or commit ~aste upon any of the mortgaged proper ty, and to
co~p ly with all governmental regul a tions and instruc ti ons
concerning s a i d p remises , or the use or occupa ncy thereof, o r
in any wise applying to the s am e .
10 .

Should default be made in the payment of said

principal or interest or taxes or insu r ance premium , or any
pa rt thereof , o r any installment of p rincipal or interest when
t he same a re payable as abo ve p rovided, or in a ny of the othe r
covenants of the mo rt gagor he reunder, then the aforesaid
princ i pal sum , v, i th all a rrea rages of interest , taxes and
insurance p remi ums, together v, i th all other sums se cured he reby,
s hall , a t the option of the s a id mortgagee, its successo rs and
assigns , without notice , become payable immed i a tely thereafter
although the pe riod above noted for ti:le payment thereof shall no t
then have expired, anyti:ling herein contained to the contrary
t nereof in any ~ise notwithstanding .
11.

Upon default being made in any of t he afo re said

covenants, o r in the terms of the note or notes secured he reby ,
the said mo rtgage e, its suc cessor s and assi gns , a re hereby
authoC'ized and empowered to grant , bargain, sell , release and
convey the said mortgaged property at public auction Qr vendue,
a nd on su ch sale to execute and delive r to the purchase r or
pur c hasers good , ample , and suffici ent deed or deeds of conveyanc
i n law pu rsu ant to the s t a tute in such case made and provided ,

LAW OFFICES

JOSEPH T. RILEY
71

!5 HACKLEY UNION

N AT'L B A NK BLDG.

MUSKEGON, MICHIGAN

-5-

�.,

I

-~L

✓

IJRl=Q

r endering the su r plus money , i f any , to t ne

422 PAr.rt.124
··rfs' · -

;-;t gag~ r-,

successors a nd as s i gn, a ft e r t he payment of t he moneys due nereon ,
and t n e cost , fees and cha r ges of such p r oc eedings , vendu es and
sales afore said, i ncluding t he maxi mum at torney fees allo~ed by
law over and above all legally taxed costs , a nd a t the op ti on of
tne mortgag ee, all p roperty covered he reby may be sold in one
lot or pa rcel as an entirety .
12 .

All the covenants a nd ag r eements he rei n contained

perta ining o r applic able to the real estate shall run ½ith t he
l and and all shall be binding upon and inure to the benefit of
t.e t'es pective successors a nd a ssigns of the pa rties here to .
1 ;:., .

The p t&gt;incipal of thi s mo rt gage rep re sents the

amo unt unpa i d on tha t c e rta in mo rt gage of the s s.me p r emi ses and
between the same pa rties da ted Ji/l ay 28, 1 948, and record€d i n
Liber 363 of mo rtg ag es a t pag e 338 in tne office of Registe r of
Deeds for t he County of Mus kego n, 111lichi gan and t his mortgage
re pl a ces the mo rt gage of May 28, A. D., 1 948 in tha t the ea rl i er
mortgage became due ~ithout bBing ful ly ~a id, and the pa rties
ag reed to a ne~ mortgage for t he p resent unpaid bal ance on t he
earlier mo rtgag e.
I N 'v, ITN88S v. ,;, J::tU,OF ., the said mo rtgago r nas ca us ed t hes e
p re sents to be signed by its .1:-' resident and Secreta ry a cting.ynder
autnority of the Boa r d of Trustees of said
affixed nereto its corpo rate seal all as of the
written . Received for Record •

...!_~.!:" ·

A. D.,.t.?.,~~ at. j";.30 AM.

r:E~~

Si gned , s e a led a nd d el ivered
in the presenc e of :

)t/~~

ATTEST:,

Wilhelmina Klont

L A W OFFI CES

JOSEPH T. RILEY

!)_~

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t # ~--

Dora E. Hansen

715 HA C KLEY UN ION
N AT ' L B AN K BL DG .

MU S KEGON, MI C H IGAN

-6-

Rose Lawson ., It s Secretary

�I
') •
..IBE.,

STATE OF MICHIGAN

491)
,...,,,1-,; PAGE 42,;
u

)
)

COUNTY OF MUSKEGON)

ss

On this Thi rd

day of December , A. D. 1952 , before

me a Notary Public in and for said County and State , personally
came Leos . Rosen and Rose Lawson, who being by me duly sworn,
diu uepose and say that they are the President and Secretary

respectively of the Muskegon House of Jewish Worship , a non-profit
Michigan corp~ra tion , and that they executed the foregoing
mortgage for and on behalf of said corpmration , and that the
execution and delivery thereof was the free act and deed of said
corpo1°ation and that the seal impressed thereon is the corporate
seal of said corporation .

Helen R. Booth
Notary Public
Muslrngon County , Michigan
My Commission expires:
May 23 , 1956

- 7LAW OFFICES

JOSEPH T . RILE Y
71!5 HACKLEY UN ION
NAT'L BANK B L DG .

MUSKEGON, M I CHIGAN

�LAW OFFICES OF

JOSEPH T. RILEY
MUS.~ l C H I G A N
,

/

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�</text>
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                <text>Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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                <text>DC-08_BI_1969-01-03_Temple_Mortgage_Paid</text>
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                <text>Discharge of mortgage document for the Muskegon House of Jewish Worship, 1967-1972.</text>
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                <text>Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>_.....,.. ---------~--~-----~------~----------~~ ----'\

$ie,OOO.OO

Muskegon, Michigan, W.ay

28,

1948

)

FOR VALUE RECEIVED, as hereinafter provided after date, we promise to pay to
THE HACKLEY UNION NATI&lt;NAL BANK OF MUSKEGON, MICHIGAN
or order, the sum of
~
SIXTY-FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($65,000 .OO)
1/-' cJ - - ~ .
with interest at the rate of four percent
per annum, as follows:
the sum of Six Thousand( $6,000.00)Dollar~7 on tfie
28th
day of November, A.D.1948
and the sum of One Thousand($1,000.00)DollaBE/ij8rJh§0 r~8th day of December, A.D.1948,
and like sums of One Thousand ($1,000.00) Dollari7e~cn on the same and corresponding
date or dates of each and every succeeding and successive month after the month of
December 1948 until all sums secured by this mortgage have been fully paid. All
interest s ~ l be computed monthly with the first payment of interest to be due on
the
~ , : ; day of June, A.D.,1948 and monthly thereafter on the same date of each
and every succeeding and successive month thereafter until principal payments become
due hereunder and then monthly interest payments shall be made at the same time as
the principal payments are required to be made under the terms and provisions hereinbefore set forth. Principal or interest not paid when due shall bear interest at
the rate of five (5%) percent per annum; Provided however, that all of the rinci al
eu1&lt;l t1.cry--tntefrtfs~1, tl'ffil'.'eon snalT"'bepa.Ya in mi- not Tater than f'ive
) years rom t;
date of these presents. This is according to the tenor of a certain real estate mortgage bearing even date herewith and being collateral hereto.

&lt;iil

This note is secured by a certain real estate mortgage of even date herewith executed
by the Muskegon House of Jewish Worship, a Michigan non-profit corporation to The
Banking Association of Muskegon,
of the mortgagee, First

-

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, .,,•

11227

INTEREST PAID

DATE PAID

PAID TD

,;

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AMDUNT

.

...
INTEREST PAID

PRINCIPAL
PAID

BAeLANCE

DATE PAID
PAID TO

PRINCIPAL
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AMOUNT

BALANCE

65,00C 00

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                  </elementText>
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                  <text>Temple B'nai Israel Collection</text>
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                <elementText elementTextId="792635">
                  <text>Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue.</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
            </element>
            <element elementId="48">
              <name>Source</name>
              <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="792636">
                  <text>Digital objects were contributed by Temple B'nai Israel as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
            </element>
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              <name>Rights</name>
              <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="792637">
                  <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
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            <element elementId="49">
              <name>Subject</name>
              <description>The topic of the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
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                  <text>Jews--United States</text>
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                  <text>Muskegon (Mich.)</text>
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                  <text>Scrapbooks</text>
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                  <text>Women--Societies and clubs</text>
                </elementText>
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                  <text>Minutes (Records)</text>
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            <element elementId="45">
              <name>Publisher</name>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
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              <name>Contributor</name>
              <description>An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource</description>
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                  <text>Preston, Marilyn</text>
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                <elementText elementTextId="792646">
                  <text>Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives</text>
                </elementText>
              </elementTextContainer>
            </element>
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              <name>Relation</name>
              <description>A related resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="792647">
                  <text>L'dor V'dor (project)</text>
                </elementText>
              </elementTextContainer>
            </element>
            <element elementId="43">
              <name>Identifier</name>
              <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="792648">
                  <text>DC-08</text>
                </elementText>
              </elementTextContainer>
            </element>
            <element elementId="42">
              <name>Format</name>
              <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="792649">
                  <text>Image</text>
                </elementText>
                <elementText elementTextId="792650">
                  <text>Text</text>
                </elementText>
              </elementTextContainer>
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              <name>Type</name>
              <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
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                  <text>image/jpeg</text>
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              <name>Language</name>
              <description>A language of the resource</description>
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              <description>A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource</description>
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      <name>Text</name>
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        <name>Dublin Core</name>
        <description>The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.</description>
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          <element elementId="43">
            <name>Identifier</name>
            <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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            <name>Creator</name>
            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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                <text>Hackley Union National Bank of Muskegon</text>
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          <element elementId="40">
            <name>Date</name>
            <description>A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource</description>
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          <element elementId="50">
            <name>Title</name>
            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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                <text>Mortgage Details</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="41">
            <name>Description</name>
            <description>An account of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="879513">
                <text>Document detailing the mortgage for the Muskegon House of Jewish Worship, May 28, 1948.</text>
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            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="49">
            <name>Subject</name>
            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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              </elementText>
              <elementText elementTextId="879515">
                <text>Muskegon (Mich.)</text>
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          </element>
          <element elementId="48">
            <name>Source</name>
            <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="879516">
                <text>Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="46">
            <name>Relation</name>
            <description>A related resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="879518">
                <text>L'dor V'dor (project)</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="47">
            <name>Rights</name>
            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="879519">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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            </elementTextContainer>
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            <name>Type</name>
            <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
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                <text>Text</text>
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            <name>Format</name>
            <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>$42-, 7-50 . 00 ·

Muskegon, Michigan

December ,,2

? , 1949

FOR VALUE RECEIVED , \'le promise to pay to THE HACKLEY UNION
NATIONAL BANK OF ~•1USKEGON at its office, First Street ana_ Western Avenue ,
Huske c on , Michi gan , or order , the sum of Forty Two Thousanc Seven Hundred
Fift ,r and no / 100 ( $42 , 750 . 00) Dollars with interest at the rate of four ( 4)
per cent per annum , payable in □ onthly installments as follo1vs : Four Hunc1rea.
Fifty and no/100 ( $450 . 00) Dollars or more on the 28th day of December, 1949
and Four Hundred Fifty and no/100 ( $450.00) Dollars or more on the 28th day
of each and every month thereafter until the nrincipal and interest ar f' fully
paid , except tha t the final payu ent of ~rincipal and interest , if not sooner
paid; shall be due and payable on or before I-lay 28 , 19 58 . Interest shall be
computed. and paid monthly on the same d.c.te as principal payments are due .
In case of default in the payment of t'l''O monthly payments as above provia_ed ,
the entire sum then unpaid sha.11 become due and payable forthwith upon such
default .
·

This note is secured by a certain real estate mortg,,ge df!ted Mey 28, 19l.18 .end
is executed nnn d.e.Liverec -Dy ~cne ,1a7.rn1 '-' 16- c cSc-ep1, e-C- oy 1.,he I)ayee .ur .L.1.e-a.- u:i. ..,,...a
certain note a_a tea. Hay 28 , 191+8 in the principal sum of Sixty Five Thousand
and no /100 ( $65 , 000 . 00) DollP.rs uhich said n o te has been paid a_o1-m to the
princiual amount of this note .

~ra-.~7
Add ress :
Fourth Street and West
Muske gon, Michi gan

febster Avenue

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                  <text>Temple B'nai Israel Collection</text>
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                  <text>Temple B'nai Israel (Muskegon, Mich.)</text>
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                  <text>Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue.</text>
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                  <text>Digital objects were contributed by Temple B'nai Israel as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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                  <text>Preston, Marilyn</text>
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                <text>DC-08_BI_Temple_Mortgage_Monetary_Details_2_1949-12-28</text>
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                <text>Hackley Union National Bank of Muskegon</text>
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                <text>Document detailing the mortgage for the Muskegon House of Jewish Worship, December 28, 1949.</text>
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                <text>Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Russell Hage
(02:37:00)
Pre-Enlistment (00:10)
•

Childhood (00:11)
o

•

Hage was born on May 20th, 1919 near Ravenna, MI. (00:26)

Family (00:48)
o Father served @ Fort Custer for 7 months during WWI. Grew up in East
Muskegon with 3 younger sisters. (01:20)
o

•

After the war, his father worked at a jewelry store. Discusses his father’s
childhood and his family in general. (03:58)

Education (02:22)
o Graduated high school in 1937. Mentions extra-curricular activities.
(02:27)

•

His Job (04:22)
o

After graduation, he went and worked in his dad’s jewelry store and
played baseball. Discusses his work responsibilities. (04:22)

Enlistment/Training (06:54)
•

Background (06:35)
o 1940: Hage describes the pre-war sentiments of friends and family alike.
(06:36)

•

•

Why he joined (06:54)
o

Hage mentions that he and his whole group volunteered ahead of time
before the draft was instituted. (07:43)

o

When he enlisted, the army was the only service recruiting men, so Hage
joined the army. (07:55)

Where they trained and what company they were in (08:54)

�o Went to Fort Custer where he was for a few days. (09:01)
o From there, he went by train to Chicago, where he joined up with other
recruits, (10:16) and from there went to Fort Worden, Washington where
he underwent basic training. (10:53)
o

Briefly describes the chain of command in battalions. (11:05)

o Received his basic training at Fort Worden but briefly waited at Fort
Flagler until it was built. (12:23) Was pulled from G-battery to the newly
formed L-battery. (12:44)
o Went to Puget Sound after basic training. Briefly describes its defensive
features. (13:38) Mentions in brief detail command exercises and then
mentions that his main job was to put fused into 12-in. mortar shells &amp;
12in gun shells. (15:47) Briefly mentions that they were issued WWI
uniforms. (16:18)
o

Hage briefly describes the army’s battlefield readiness at the brink of
WWII. (17:12)

o

Briefly mentions what the effects of tide conditions were like on Puget
Sound for various ships coming into the sound. (19:30)

o October ’41 - Briefly goes into some detail regarding an instance of the
British battleship Warspite entering Puget Sound unnoticed. (21:28)
o

A week later a message was intercepted from the navy informing them
that an unidentified submarine possibly German was entering the sound.
(23:36) This news was never broadcast. (25:47)

o

December 1941, all Army and Navy personnel’s shore leave was
cancelled before the attack on Pearl Harbor. (27:40) The general
American feeling was that something big was going to happen. (28:45)
Army personnel had 6 hrs shifts daily 24/7. (29:40)

o Hage mentions that he was trained in the use of 50-caliber machine guns
and the building of underground shelters 15ft. deep which were built at
Puget Sound. (30:02)
•

Other training (31:05)
o

At this point, Hage backs up and mentions that following basic training he
changed to hydraulic duties. (31:20) It was that this point that Hage
applied and was accepted into officer’s training. (32:29)

o

May ’41 – Hage received orders to report to Camp Davis near
Wellington, NC. (33:14) Stayed there for 3 months and training to be an

�anti-aircraft officer. (33:35) Conditions on base were very stringent
because the army didn’t have many junior officers. Trainees lived in 4
assigned barracks. About ½ of them dropped out, while the other ½ stayed
and took advanced math &amp; other subjects near Holly Ridge, NC. (35:22)
o

In his 1st month there, officers learned how to show common soldiers
how to carry rifles, achieve discipline, and marching. (36:30)

o

Hage further mentions working with 90 and 40-mm anti-aircraft guns at
Camp Fisher learning how to operate and repair them. (37:16) Graduated
anti-aircraft officer training in 1942. (37:31)

o

Took a 2-week leave afterwards to marry his school sweetheart. (37:52)

o

Afterwards, Hage and some friends went by car to Camp Hahn, CA.
(39:50) It was here that the army organized the formation of units and
battalions. (40:24)

o July ’42 -- While stationed here, Hage was assigned to the 440th Antiaircraft battalion which was a 40-mm gun unit. (41:11) Mentions that he
was assigned to C battery.
o

The 440th was formed @ Camp Hahn &amp; the first of its kind. (42:10)

o Camp Irwin/Desert training (47:35)


Describes in some detail his training with the 40-mm anti-aircraft
gun at Camp Irwin in the California desert. (44:35) Briefly
discusses what training entailed here. (47:35)



In one instance, the 440th anti-aircraft unit accompanied a convoy
to Camp Young where Patton set up a desert training center.
(49:12) Further mentions the various military installations that
dotted the California desert region. (49:43).



Oct. ’42 -- Conducted a training maneuver towards Iron Mt. where
4th Armored Division was posted, to condition themselves for
conditions in desert environment. (53:03)



From there they moved up to the bullhead border b/w California,
Nevada, &amp; Utah with the 9th Armored Division. (53:40)
Stayed at Camp Ibis for a short time. (54:46) Mentions a variety
of other desert exercises they conducted for that year. (55:51)

o Getting ready to disembark (56:15)

�

Traveled by train to Michigan and then by air on to Camp Pickett,
VA. Later on he underwent the final phase of his training at Camp
Stuart, VA. (56:36)



Went down to Savannah, Georgia &amp; trained there for 5 weeks.
(56:50) Spent 20 months here. (57:30)



Afterwards, went to Camp Shanks, NY in preparation for overseas
journey. (57:40)

Active Duty (59:05)
•

Where the subject went and how they got there (59:34)
o

Spent Christmas crossing the Atlantic not knowing where he was end up.
(57:50) Traveled by convoy and arrived at Liverpool, England. (59:05)

o From there he went by train to southern England. (59:25
•

In England (1:00:45)
o

Upon landing, he took a train from Liverpool for Dartmouth on the coast,
up to Reading. Underwent further training here. (1:01:20)

o Afterwards, went to the west side of England. Used the training ground
here for various combat units of the armed forces to practice different
drills. (1:02:42)
o Hage and a friend from battery A underwent further training in landing
craft operations. (1:03:46) Landing crews were assigned to officers who
would be able to work well with their crews. (1:04:41) Hage was soon
training units in landing craft operations (1:05:37)
o Soon afterwards, his battalion transported batteries to Paton, England.
(1:09:30)
•

•

Activities in England (1:10:20)
o

During his training breaks he often made visits to Oxford. (1:10:20) .

o

June ‘44 – The details of June 6th are described in brief detail. (1:16:54)

Normandy (1:11:12)
o June 8 – Normandy: The previous day, the Allies had climbed Utah cliffs
and pushed inland for about a mile until being stopped by German
opposition. (1:20:02) Hage &amp; his unit landed at Omaha Beach when they

�were supposed to have landed on Utah. Mentions what they did to solve
this. (1:19:29)
o While in the hedgerows his unit briefly stopped to light up an area so
bombers would know where to drop their payload. (1:21:16)
o After pushing up the Normandy peninsula &amp; through the hedgerows, they
were called upon to protect an airstrip so fighter planes could land.
(1:22:34) Part of his unit’s job was to protect some of the airstrips in the
area so fighters could land. If German artillery was positioned in the area
they would fell trees to make room for gun emplacements. (1:23:00)
o Briefly mentions the bombing on St. Lo that Omar Bradley had ordered.
Hage describes what the shear sound of thousands of fighters and bombers
flying overhead sounded like. Goes on to mention his part in protecting
another airstrip. (1:26:28)
o

•

In his next encounter, Hage is positioned at a chateau overlooking a
bridge that crosses the Seine River at Melun. His job here was to
safeguard this bridge so the Allies could cross safely. (1:27:21)

On the March through France (1:27:47)
o

In preparation of a massive tank advance, Patton was gathering up
gasoline. (1:27:47) The 79th Inf. Division, meanwhile, took the road north
in pursuit of the retreating Germans. (1:28:42)

o In one single day the Allies pushed 60 miles going through the towns of
Charleroi, Paris and on into Belgium. (1:28:20)
•

Descriptions of various missions in France (1:29:20)
o Hage and his unit were given a mission to protect an important bridge over
the Meuse River so the 9th Inf. Div. could cross. (1:29:20)
o

While on reconnaissance through Charleroi, Hage and his unit decided to
cut through the city itself to avoid the heavy-congested traffic situation.
(1:29:56) After being welcomed by locals (1:30:14) his battery unit turned
alongside the Meuse River out in the open, where they were exposed &amp;
started getting shelled by German artillery firing from across the river.
(1:30:58)


Hage, meanwhile, ordered one of his gunners to direct their fire on
specific machine-gun emplacements and a church emplacement

�which he took out. (1:31:40) All the while Hage was loading 4 to 5
guns at a time while his gunner was firing. (1:32:46)


In that same experience, a sniper took out one of his gunners and
injured 3 others. (1:33:56) His unit finally pulled back to the safety
of the woods. (1:34:34)

o Briefly mentions that a unit of non-combatants captured 12 Germans who
surrendered to them. (1:35:39)
•

Belgium (1:36:02)
o

Hage’s experience here was in protecting various ammunition dumps,
corps artillery, self-and propelled artillery, while getting often times
getting shelled by German artillery in the area. (1:36:18)

o On one occasion, German guns shelled and destroyed a few of their jeeps
very close to Hage’s position. (1:37:54)
o Briefly mentions that he had been stationed in the field as an executive
officer with his men from August 1942 to October 1945. (1:38:10)

•

o

From Aachen, the Army went into the Hurtgen Forest region where they
buckled down for the winter. (1:39:02) Hage &amp; his unit only stayed here a
week and then were moved back to the town of Honsfeld, Belgium.
(1:39:59) His mission here was to shoot V-1s (a robotic-aircraft attached
with explosives) down from reaching their destinations. (1:40:56) His unit
stayed here for 2 weeks. (1:41:34)

o

Hage describes what it was like marching over those dusty roads; all the
while the line of the Army’s deployment was spread out for a mile. The
106th Inf. Div. &amp; 99th Div., fresh divisions from the U.S. were in the
front. (1:41:58) Hage’s unit was positioned very close to the 106th when
the Battle of the Bulge began. (1:42:40)

Battle of the Bulge (1:43:24)
o

On the 16th of December they heard the sound of 12 V-1s exploding
nearby. (1:44:06) They soon realized that something big was going to
happen. They soon got orders to move up to Honsfeld. (1:45:10)

o

Briefly discusses the book “The Longest Winter” which talks about the
course of events as seen through the eyes of the 99 Inf. Div. (1:45:51)

�o

Makes mention of another book “We were each other’s Prisoners” which
discusses some more things. (1:48:15)

o Hage mentions receiving minor shrapnel wounds &amp; is treated in a hospital.
(1:48:47) From Malmédy they started heading down a dirt road towards
St. Vith when Battery B came into contact with a contingent of Germans.
(1:50:47) The 7th Armored &amp; 106th with the 99th faced off with the
Germans. The 99th Inf. Div. suffered heavy causalities. (1:51:20)
o Christmas Eve – Hage &amp; unit made contact with the 75th Div. who were
the next division that they were assigned too. (1:52:22) The 75th Div. got
assigned the northern section of the Bulge. The fighting at the Bulge as
Hage mentions a little touch &amp; go for a while. (1:53:24) Hage mentions
that his unit supported the tanks &amp; field artillery of 105-mm guns.
(1:54:06)
•

•

Other missions/activities in Europe (1:54:21)
o

Afterwards, the 75th Div. was given a clean-up mission in the Colmar
sector, about 30 miles from the Swiss border which it was attached to the
French Army. (1:54:22) The 75th Div. took position in the center line; the
28th Div on another side; &amp; another division coming up from Italy on the
other. (1:55:33)

o

Hage’s next mission took him to the Netherlands where the 2nd British
Army was stationed. While here they placed different color banners on
their trucks so they were able to differentiate between the trucks. (1:56:43)

Rhine River Campaign (1:56:58)
o The Allies were building pontoon bridges up near Wesel to cross the river.
Hage describes briefly the various encounters he had on their side of the
river. (1:58:04)
o

•

Hage went to  Duisberg where they blew up the factories there. From
there the 75th Div. went to a camp @ Siegen near Frankfurt. Hage’s
mission here was to take care of 32,000 displaced detainees which
included many different nationalities. (1:59:30) Stayed here for quite a
while. (2:02:42)

Germany (2:07:09)
o

Briefly describes what daily life was like in the various camps he was
stationed at in Germany. (2:03:54)

�o Went to Bonn, Germany for a short time to protect a supply line that ran
from there to Bingen, Germany. Afterwards, he made preparations to go
home. (2:09:07)
•

Going Home (2:09:59)
o Briefly highlights some of his interesting experiences on his 12 day trip
from Antwerp to England and then 10 day passage across the Atlantic
home to America. (2:10:56)
o

Landed at Camp Shanks, NY, where he briefly celebrate d with a steak
dinner the end of the war. (2:11:46) Oct. 1945 - Soon after, Hage reported
at Indiantown, PA where he was discharged. (2:11:37)

o Rising tensions &amp; fear in the US with Russian communism were very
high. (2:11:47)

After the Service (2:13:26)
•

Adjusting to Home (2:13:27)
o Upon being discharged, Hage goes into accounting for several years
(2:13:45) Also mentions how he developed his interest for it. (2:15:40)

•

Military involvement after the service (2:17:29)
o Hage joins the U.S.Reserves &amp; ends up with a service-type of unit whose
job it is to take care of exploded ammunition (2:17:46) Trained in Grand
Rapids for a year in these duties and then spent 3 years around the areas of
Indiana, Savannah, &amp; Chicago. (2:18:09)
o 1954 -- Hage became a major and was stationed at Camp McCoy near
Muskegon for the next 13 years. (2:19:46) Much of his service here, Hage
describes the various units he commanded, the places he often visited, &amp;
his promotion to lieutenant colonel. (2:21:30)
o 1969 -- Hage became a colonel. Briefly discusses the national discussion
of combining the Reserves with the National Guard. (2:24:30)
o

•

Previously in 1967, Hage had an encounter with a Frenchman who
discussed his experience in Vietnam. (2:27:30)

Concluding thoughts (2:28:57)

�o

Mentions a variety of his achievements, specifically playing ball in
Belgium &amp; Germany. (2:30:20)

o

Hage wrapped up first, by mentioning that his 34-yrs of military service
helped him to become a good businessman and secondly, of his
recommendation to young people about spending some time in the armed
services. (2:30:40)

o

Backs up and further mentions more of his Camp Hahn days (2:33:05) &amp;
discusses various comrades in the process. (2:35:27)
End – (2:37:10)

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RMGER'S RESIDENCE

t='ORT FLAGLER

,- I=ort Flagier State Park is located on the northeast comer of the Olympic Peninsula at the
entrance to Admiralty Inlet and Puget Sound near Port Townsend. It is one of nearly forty
herltage sites administered by the Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission.
Its 800 pius acres are virtually surrounded by water. Facilities include picnic tables,_
stoves, campsites, boat launch, moorage, and a group camp. Swimming, fishing, clamming,
and hiking: are popular activities. Space is available for .trailers although there ar~ no hook­
ups.
A display Shelter interprets the history of this one-time coastal defense fort and its two
counterparts, Forts Casey and Worden. Two 3-inch guns, obtained from Fort Wint in the
PhilippineS, have been installed as a reminder to the visitor of the weapons that were once
a vital part of Fort Flagler. For furthur infonnation contact:

•

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Lynn Hahn
(1:41:05)
(00:20) Background Information
•
•

Lynn was born in 1931 in Beaverton, MI
His parents were both Methodist ministers and he moved around a lot when he was
younger

(1:40) World War Two
•
•

Lynn had been in boy scouts and remembered often gathering canned goods for the war
effort
He also remembered rationing of sugar, tires, and gasoline

(2:40) Graduation from High School 1949
•
•
•
•
•

Lynn attended Alma College where he played football, basketball, and baseball
Lynn got bad grades and was put on probation
He quit school and began working in a factory
He met his future wife and they began talking about marriage, but were worried that he
would be drafted
Lynn had many friends that were being drafted, but decided to get married before his
time in the service

(5:00) Lynn Received his draft papers in December of 1951
• He was inducted on January 2nd at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, MI
• Lynn was brought into an office to help type release records
• He was told he could only keep that position for 30 days
(8:30) Basic Training in Virginia
• Lynn began quartermaster training and spent 8 weeks in Virginia
• Training took severe discipline to wake up every day at 5 am
• Lynn continued with school for graves registration
• He was told he would be categorizing bodies in cemeteries in Europe
• Graves registration lasted another 8 weeks in which they were handling actual bodies
• They learned how to evacuate the dead, search battlefields for bodies, and identify bodies
• Lynn began realizing that he would be going to Korea and not Europe
(15:40) Lynn arrived in Korea in 1952
• He traveled on a victory ship to Korea that was about 500 feet long
• The ship was jam packed with troops and many of them were sea sick before the ship
even took off
• Lynn was often worried about being hit by a torpedo
• Once in Korea, the soldiers were told they were there to stop communism from spreading

�•

Many were worried that Russia may get further involved in the war

(24:20) North Korea
• Lynn was working at the 23rd group headquarters near the middle of the peninsula, about
15 miles from the front line
• He then began working for 148th graves registration
• They were staying in Quonset huts and the area smelled horrible because the natives used
human waste for fertilizer
• Lynn got started working in the mortuary and found that it was very different from his
training
• They had to remove the clothes from the body, take fingerprints, and record all their work
• The bodies were refrigerated until there were enough of them to put in a flight to Japan
• In Japan the bodies were identified, embalmed, and sent in a casket back to the US
(30:50) Search and Recovery
• There were many dead left to recover from fighting with the Chinese
• Lynn would receive a battle report of all the men that were missing
• They would travel with South Korean interpreters and first ask natives if they had seen
any of the missing men
• Then they would travel to the area where the battle took place to look for bodies
• Lynn worked every day of the week and barely had time for church on Sundays
• They had no contact with the Chinese, but gathered many Chinese bodies
• They handled the foreign bodies the same and established temporary cemeteries for them
(35:00) One Week Trip to Japan
• Lynn stayed in a nice hotel, got to take a warm shower, shave, and change into clean
clothes
• He spent time swimming, bicycling, and riding a motor cycle
• He wrote to his wife and parents almost every day and his wife kept all the letters
(37:50) War Progression
• Lynn continued on many search and recovery missions
• Often there were air alerts when unidentified planes flew over the area
• The men would then hurry and jump into their fox holes, but it was always a false alarm
• Activity had begun to slow near the cease fire
• About 3 months before the cease fire, the men began separating all the foreign bodies so
that the exchange would go more smoothly
(42:00) Operations Section of Graves Registration
• Lynn received a new job at the end of the war working in an office
• This occurred during Operation Glory, which was the exchange of foreign bodies with
Koreans and Chinese
• About 4,000 American bodies were obtained from the Chinese, and the Americans
exchanged about 15,000 Chinese
(45:00) Passing of Time

�•
•
•
•
•
•

Many men had to remain in Korea for another six months before they would be
discharged
They spent time building a club house and a bar
Lynn continued working in the office and filling out paperwork
He took an even larger liberty ship home and got sick again
The ship arrived in San Francisco and Lynn took a train to Chicago
He waited a long time to be discharged

(49:00) Time After the Service
• Lynn and his wife saved a lot of money and bought a new house and car
• He went back to school and paid for it with the GI Bill
• Lynn got better grades the second time around and made the Dean’s List
• He majored in chemistry and continued to play baseball
• After graduation, Lynn began working for the Michigan Chemical Corporation
(56:00) Research facility
• Lynn worked in a different research facility in 1957 in Saint Louis
• He moved to Ann Arbor in 1975, and then moved again to Chicago
• He became the chief chemist in Whitehall and worked there for 13 years before retiring
in 1993
(58:03) Civil War Activities
• Lynn had family members that fought in the Civil War with Sherman
• His great grandfather was captured by confederates for foraging
• Lynn did lots of research on his family history and their involvement in the Civil War
(1:01:00) Reunions
• Lynn wrote an article in 1996 for the Korean War Memorial in Washington DC
• He has gone to many graves registration reunions
• Showing of pictures

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Rick Hahn
Vietnam War, Cold War, &amp; Gulf War
1 hour 43 minutes 4 seconds
(00:00:20) Early Life
-Born on November 9, 1949, in Howell, Michigan
-Grew up there
-Lived there until he was 23 years old (save for two years in the Army)
-Father worked for a local telephone company
-Mother worked for city hall
-Graduated from high school in 1967
-Worked during the summers and attended Grand Rapids Community College
-Found that college wasn’t for him and got a job instead
(00:01:53) Enlisting in the Army
-Talked to the draft board to ask when he would get drafted
-Told he would be drafted in June 1969
-Decided to enlist in the Army in February 1969
(00:03:19) Basic Training
-Sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for basic training
-At the time, drill sergeants could strike recruits
-He was in good physical shape
-The emphasis on discipline was the hardest part of adjusting, for him
-Required orders and permission for every part of life
-Every night they had to wax and buff the floors of the barracks
-Treated better by drill sergeants near the end of basic training
(00:05:35) Awareness of Vietnam War
-He was aware of the situation in Vietnam
-Later found out that 1969 and 1970 were some of the worst years of the war
-Didn’t know that at the time
(00:06:34) Advanced Infantry Training
-After eight weeks of basic training he went to advanced infantry training (AIT)
-Went to Fort Gordon, Georgia, for AIT
-Learned infantry tactics
-Taught how to use mortars and work in the fire direction center (getting coordinates for mortars)
-Only one man from his AIT group didn’t go to Vietnam
-Trained with a mix of draftees and enlistees
-Treated a little better during AIT
-Maintained discipline
-Lasted eight weeks
-Completed in June 1969

�(00:08:32) Deployment to Vietnam
-Given one month of leave before deployment to Vietnam
-Went to the Oakland Replacement Depot in Oakland, California
-Processing center for outgoing soldiers
-Flew over in a chartered commercial flight (same airline he flew over during the Gulf War)
-Stopped in Alaska and Japan
(00:10:38) Arrival in Vietnam
-Landed at Tan Son Nhut Airbase in the afternoon
-Vietnam was hot, hotter than Georgia
-Sent to an in-processing center
-He got picked for guard duty
-Heard incoming rounds around the perimeter
-Didn’t know it was incoming fire
-Next day the incoming men were placed in formation to be sorted into units
-Stayed at the processing center for about a week
-Waiting for assignment and learned about customs in Vietnam
(00:13:58) Joining the 101st Airborne Division
-Assigned to the 101st Airborne Division
-Unit operated in I Corps (northernmost part of South Vietnam)
-Sent to Camp Evans
-Flew up to the base in a C-130
-Did more in-processing and paperwork
-Assigned to Headquarters Company, 2nd Battalion, of the 506th Infantry Regiment
-Joined his unit in early August 1969
-Part of a mortar platoon
-Had three sections (or nine mortars) with five men per gun
(00:17:16) Patrols &amp; Operations
-Went into the jungle and stayed there for about two weeks
-Sometimes went to landing zones, and sometimes went in with line companies (regular infantry)
-If they went with a line company, they went with C Company
-The five men had different roles in the field
-Squad leader carried the gunsight
-Gunner carried the tube
-Assistant gunner carried tripod
-Ammo bearers carried base plate and rounds
-Infantrymen gladly carried an extra mortar round or two
-Mortarmen stayed in the middle of the perimeter at night
-Operated in the hills of I Corps
-Supported the withdrawal of the 3rd Marines from the Demilitarized Zone
-Operated out of various firebases
-Periodically rotated to Camp Evans
(00:22:50) Enemy Contact
-When he first joined the 101st, he learned the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong feared the 101st

�-That fear lasted until the Battle of Firebase Ripcord in July 1970
-Experienced short-lived ambushes or the occasional sniper
-Patrolled in the A Shau Valley
-Note: Part of the Ho Chi Minh Trail that got supplies to communist forces
-Saw “Hamburger Hill” where that battle happened
-Basically, in the same amount of danger as a regular infantryman
(00:25:15) Morale in the Mortar Platoon
-Morale seemed pretty good in the mortar platoon
-Had a couple draftees that didn’t want to be there
-Didn’t notice any larger morale problems like drug use, insubordination, or racial tension
-Men did their jobs and took care of each other, even if they opposed the war
-Spent his entire tour with that mortar platoon
-Didn’t remember a high turnover of personnel
-Just the standard rotation of men joining and leaving the unit
(00:27:18) Establishing Firebase Ripcord
-In March 1970, 2nd Battalion launched Operation Texas Star to establish Firebase Ripcord
-He was on either Firebase Bastogne or Firebase Rakkasan to support the operation
-In mid-April, C Company took the hill and began to establish a firebase
-His mortar platoon got to Ripcord in June
-Helped build mortar positions
-No enemy activity at the time
(00:29:33) R&amp;R
-Went to Thailand for his second R&amp;R
-Went to Sydney, Australia, for his first R&amp;R
-Got a second R&amp;R by total happenstance
-Bumped into the man in charge of R&amp;Rs, and let him take a second one
(00:30:33) Battle of Firebase Ripcord Pt. 1
-He got back to Ripcord on July 2nd or 3rd
-The battle had already begun on July 1st
-They had started getting fire missions in June and the frequency picked up through July
-Fired every day from July 1st until the 23rd
-Infantry fed coordinates to the mortars if they spotted enemy artillery positions
-The actual mortar was set in the middle of a pit with sandbags and ammo boxes around it
-Next to the pit the men had built a bunker into the side of the hill
-The mortar pit didn’t have any protection save for the sandbags
-His mortar pit took an incoming round and set a box of fuses on fire
-Rick left the bunker and put out the fire before it ignited the actual mortar rounds
-Started taking more and heavier North Vietnamese mortar fire
-On July 18th, the North Vietnamese shot down a Chinook helicopter
-It crashed on the artillery batteries and the artillery ammo dump
-Rick stayed in his bunker for four hours until all the ammo cooked off
-Remembers stray rounds hitting the side of his bunker
-Only one man was killed, but the artillery batteries and ammunition were destroyed

�(00:38:50) The Fall of Firebase Ripcord
-The decision was made to abandon, and destroy, Firebase Ripcord on July 23rd
-Remembers running up to the top of the hill with the mortar pieces to get to the helicopter
-He caught a man before he fell out of the helicopter
-Held onto him all the way back to Camp Evans
-He was on one of the last helicopters off Ripcord
-Saw the North Vietnamese troops coming out of the jungle and advancing up the hill
(00:40:58) Battle of Firebase Ripcord Pt. 2
-Days on Ripcord were fairly routine except for the bombardment and fire missions
-Ate and bathed around the incoming fire and the fire missions
-Enemy bombardment made it difficult to move around the base, and draw food and supplies
(00:41:45) End of Tour
-Only had a week left in his tour after the fall of Firebase Ripcord
-Started his out-processing after he left Ripcord
-Went to Eagle Beach with the rest of the battalion for two or three days
-Eagle Beach was a secure beach in Vietnam for soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division
-Asked if he wanted to go into the field his last three or four days
-He declined and would have refused if they had tried to make him go
-At Camp Evans, he watched the destruction of Firebase Ripcord
-B-52 bombers carpet-bombed the firebase
-Fighter jets followed that up with napalm
-A soldier that went to Ripcord after the bombardment said the hill had been flattened
(00:44:40) Coming Home
-He left Vietnam by way of Cam Ranh Bay
-Landed at Seattle
-Processed, given a new uniform and a steak dinner
-Given a leave home to Michigan
-Saw protesters at the Detroit airport
-Didn’t mind the anti-war protesters until one of them spit on him
-Police officer intervened to stop a fight
-Sympathized with Rick, but told him a fight wasn’t worth it
-He expected protesters
(00:48:15) Stationed at Fort Hood &amp; End of Enlistment
-Sent to Fort Hood, Texas, to be in a mortar unit with other Vietnam War veterans
-Had daily work and not much else to do
-Saw more racial tension at Fort Hood
-There were problems between soldiers
-All the mortarmen lived on one floor of the barracks, and other units on separate floors
-A few men on the next floor didn’t like the mortarmen
-They dealt with the issue internally without getting command involved
-The Black Power movement and KKK were present, but not in abundant numbers
-Men in Vietnam had smoked weed, but he didn’t partake
-Stayed at Fort Hood for the rest of his enlistment

�-Spent 30 days at home because of a broken hand
-Returned to Fort Hood in October 1970
-Left Fort Hood in February 1971
-Encouraged to reenlist, but he didn’t feel pressured to reenlist
(00:52:50) Life after First Enlistment
-Went back to Michigan and took off a few weeks before getting a job
-Got a job then worked various jobs
-Married in 1973
-First child in 1974
-Had a job with PepsiCo, but the economy wasn’t stable
-Wanted a job with better stability
(00:53:50) Reenlisting in the Army
-He decided to reenlist in the Army to have a more stable job and a consistent paycheck
-Reenlisted in 1975
-Didn’t know what to expect when he reenlisted
-He wanted to get a position in the engineers, but wound up back in the mortars
-Sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, for refresher training
-Lasted three weeks
-A condensed version of basic training
-Reminded of Army regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice
-Sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana
-Part of the training command for refresher training on mortars
-That training only lasted five days
(00:58:23) Stationed at Fort Ord
-Sent to Fort Ord, California, where he joined the 7th Infantry Division
-Stayed at Fort Ord for a little over a year
-Easy adjustment because the Army had gotten easier
-Better pay and less discipline
-Wife stayed in Michigan to have their (second?) baby
-She waited a few months after having the baby, then came to Fort Ord
-Lived with his wife off-base in the town of Salinas
-Enjoyed being in California
-There wasn’t much to do except train and do guard duty
(01:01:28) Tours in South Korea
-He went to South Korea for a tour
-Joined Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 38th Infantry Regiment of the 2nd Infantry Division
-Headquarters Company had mortars, snipers, and the recon platoon
-Based near the Demilitarized Zone
-Arrived in South Korea in 1978 (or 1979)
-North Korea tried to make trouble every day during that tour
-Rotated on and off the Demilitarized Zone
-Set up mortars near Panmunjom
-Remembers a patrol got lost in the Demilitarized Zone and wound up in a minefield

�-Had to send in a helicopter to recover the patrol
-Took the lost patrol to Camp Howze
-Helicopter pilot had served in Vietnam
-Very close to North Korea
-North Korea tried to probe the line
-Never had fire missions, but almost had one
-South Korea was a confused state
-Tension between the people and the government
-North Korean defectors
-There was an observation post the North Koreans shot at on a regular basis
-Never shot directly at the post, but around it
-He did three tours in South Korea in four years
-His family had come with him
-South Korea was transitioning into democracy during his time in the country
-Got divorced, and married a South Korean woman
-Got to see more of South Korea and learn about the culture
-In the rural areas, the Koreans stared at him because Americans were such a rarity
-He enjoyed Korea
-Between his tours, he was at Fort Hood and Fort Ord
(01:12:30) Hardship Duty in Sacramento
-Got hardship duty in Sacramento, California, because he and his wife lost their baby
-Baby was born two months early, and died after about 24 hours
-Wife returned to South Korea to be with her family for about a month
-Thought it would be a chance for her to recover, but it didn’t work out
(01:14:45) Tour in West Germany
-Sent to Aschaffenburg, West Germany, in the mid-1980s
-Served with the 3rd Infantry Division
-Supporting Allied and other American forces in the event of a Soviet invasion
-Enjoyed his time in Germany
-Good economy for American soldiers
-Germans treated Americans well, at least they treated him well
-Discipline in the Army had changed even more
-Treated the troops under his command fairly
-Quality of troops increased by making the Army an all-volunteer force
(01:18:38) Stationed at Fort Riley
-After his tour in Germany he was sent to Fort Riley, Kansas
-Part of mortars, but also the S3 non-commissioned officer (part of operations)
-Planned training schedules
-Part of the nucleus of the battalion
-Worked with staff officers
-Got along better with higher-ranking officers (majors and up)
-Possibly because he was closer in age to them than younger officers

�(01:21:24) Operation Desert Shield &amp; Deployment
-Placed on alert when Iraq invaded Kuwait on August 2, 1990
-Transferred back into mortars and started doing more training
-He had combat experience, and was made platoon sergeant
-Went to Fort Ord for more pre-deployment training
-Put their equipment on a train to Houston, so that it could go by sea to Saudi Arabia
-Flew over to Saudi Arabia
-Stopped in Greece
-Landed in Saudi Arabia and moved to a staging area
-Gathered personnel and equipment to get organized before the war
-Took about a month for everyone and everything to arrive
-He and a few other personnel went ahead of the main body to establish the staging area
-He deployed with the 1st Infantry Division
(01:26:10) Operation Desert Storm
-Remembers hearing the B-52s flying into Iraq and he knew the war had begun
-Stationed on the Saudi Arabia/Iraq border
-Stared moving into Iraq during the aerial bombardment
-Told nothing about what to expect going into Iraq
-Had some nuclear/biological/chemical (NBC) weapons training
-How to put on an NBC suit and survive an attack
-Knew that Iraq had chemical weapons and used them in the past
-Advanced into Iraq
-Stopped at Safwan, Iraq, where the Iraqi military signed the ceasefire agreement
-Did some fire missions to counter Iraqi artillery and mortars
-His section destroyed an Iraqi artillery position
-His section used self-propelled mortars (most likely the M1064 mortar carrier)
-Took Iraqi artillery fire
-It was good to have Rick in the unit, because he had combat experience
-Captured an abandoned Iraqi position
-Grabbed an Iraqi mortar in case they needed extra firepower
-The war didn’t last long due to the aerial bombardment and superiority of Coalition forces
-The Iraqis were outclassed and outgunned
-Iraqi survivors said tanks had been destroyed without seeing the enemy tank
-Heard about an American unit that lost men because they played with unexploded ordinance
-Significant number of casualties due to friendly fire or accidents
-Main concern during the war was the deployment of chemical weapons
-Stayed in the Middle East for five months
(01:38:27) Retirement from Army
-He retired from the Army in 1993
-Served at Fort Riley after the Gulf War until his retirement
(01:38:45) Reflections on Service Pt. 1
-Diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder in 2000
-A friend helped push him to get help

�-Had struggled with alcohol to cope with some of the memories
-It was a different life experience getting to see places he never thought he’d see
-Enjoyed the travel he did in the Army
-Has now been out of the Army longer than he was in the Army
(01:40:58) Life after Retirement
-He got a job driving semi-trucks
-Worked with his wife
-Did that for about a decade
-Permanently retired after ten years of driving truck
(01:42:00) Reflections on Service Pt. 2
-Discipline was the most drastic change in the Army
-Believes the lack of discipline is the cause of problems in the modern Army

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Rick Hahn was born in Howell, Michigan, on November 9, 1949. He enlisted in the Army in February 1969, and received his basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky. He went on to receive mortar training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. Upon completion of training he was deployed to Vietnam in August 1969. He joined the mortar platoon in Headquarters Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 506th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Infantry Division. For the rest of 1969 and the early part of 1970 he went on patrols around Camp Evans. In June 1970, he and his unit were stationed on Firebase Ripcord, and he participated in the Battle of Firebase Ripcord from July 1, 1970 – July 23, 1970 when the firebase was evacuated. Shortly thereafter, he returned to the United States and was stationed at Fort Hood, Texas, until his enlistment ended in February 1971. He reenlisted in the Army in 1975 and served for another 18 years at a variety of bases with a variety of units (Fort Ord, California, with the 7th Infantry Division; three tours in South Korea; a tour in West Germany with the 3rd Infantry Division; and at Fort Riley, Kansas). He also served in the Gulf War with the 1st Infantry Division. Rick retired from the Army in 1993.</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Mike Hale
Vietnam War
1 hour 28 minutes 51 seconds
(00:00:41) Early Life
-Born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1946
-Lived there all his life
-Attended Muskegon schools until eighth grade
-Attended Barbour Hall Academy (junior military academy) in Nazareth, Michigan
-Went to Marmion Military Academy for high school in Aurora, Illinois
-Father was a dentist
-Mother was a stay at home mom
(00:01:30) Military Academies
-IQ tested and decided to attend the military academies for the challenge
-Public schools wouldn’t have been difficult enough
-Spent five years all toll in military academies
-Introduced him to military life and the concept of survival
-Twenty four hours military
-Regimented living
-Woken up at a certain time every day
-Inspected before each class
-Received rudimentary military training
-Similar to ROTC (Reserve Officers’ Training Corps) training
-Graduated in June 1964
(00:03:44) Enlisting in the Army
-Returned to Muskegon to attend Muskegon Community College for a year
-In July 1965 after President Johnson began Vietnam War he decided to enlist
-Thought that he would be safer as an enlistee as opposed to being a draftee
-August 1965 enlisted in the Army to go into communications
(00:05:45) Awareness of Vietnam War
-Didn’t know a lot about Vietnam War
-Knew there was combat going on
-Aware of the fact that soldiers were getting killed and wounded
-Knew that there would be a low chance for survival if he was sent to Vietnam
-Wanted to avoid becoming an officer
(00:07:06) Army Physical and Basic Training
-Given an Army physical in Fort Wayne (outside of Detroit), Michigan
-Standard physical as well as other tests
-Took two days
-Lots of shots and paperwork involved
-Sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri for basic training shortly after August 1965
-Got assigned to a training company
-Some repetition of what he had already learned in the military academies

�-Took part in live fire training exercises, marksmanship training, and grenade training
-Hand to hand combat courses and obstacle course training
-They stayed in WWII barracks
-Assigned to be a “fireman”: Loaded coal into furnaces
-Being a “fireman” meant he didn’t have to go through as much training
-Training emphasized killing
-Shocking for a late teenager, early twenty year old
-Finished basic training in November 1965
(00:11:00) Advanced Infantry Training
-Sent to Fort Devens, Massachusetts for advanced infantry training
-Focus was on radio training and cryptology training
-Official job designation was Morse code interceptor
-Sitting for eight hours listening to Morse code and writing it down
-Washed out
-Kept in communications by the Army
(00:12:34) Back to Fort Leonard Wood and Deployment Orders
-Sent back to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri
-Attached to radio unit in training
-Stayed there from February 1966 to June 1966
-Got orders to report to Fort Riley, Kansas with the 9th Division for deployment to Vietnam
-Trained how to use large transmitters for base to base communications
-Radio operator not a radio repair man
(00:14:02) Fort Riley, Kansas
-Reported to Fort Riley, Kansas and was attached to the 9th Division (formed in February 1966)
-Assigned to be in Headquarters Company of the 15th Combat Engineer Battalion, 9th Division
-Close friend from Fort Devens was assigned to HQ Company as well
-Trained as a unit at Fort Riley
-Command wanted to make sure they could function together as a unit
-Instrumental in forming a bond between them
-Vehicles were sent to Vietnam before the soldiers were
-Remembers the Fort Riley PX (general store) having great pizza and great beer
-Did field training to prepare for Vietnam
-The cold and the rain in Kansas didn’t match with Vietnamese weather
-Conducted training for Vietnam in the winter while in Massachusetts
-Neither scenario made sense to him
-Some experienced men in the unit, but for the most part they were all fresh soldiers
(00:18:25) Deployment to Vietnam
-Went over by boat to Vietnam with the primary task of building a base camp for rest of division
-Departed mid-October
-On the trip over they were trained to be in the proper mindset
-Trained to believe that the Vietnamese were subhuman
-Weather wasn’t bad on crossing
-Took eighteen days to cross over
-Traveled with Marines
-There was camaraderie with a slight hint of friendly rivalry
-Stopped in Okinawa, Japan and took a twenty four hour liberty there

�(00:22:17) Arriving in Vietnam
-Offloaded the Marines at Da Nang
-Traveled south to Vung Tau
-Left ship by barge and then taken to an airstrip by truck
-Left by the airstrip for a few hours completely exposed without ammo
-Flown to Bearcat outside of Long Thanh
-Bearcat was attached to Camp Martin Cox of the 4th Infantry Division
-Later worked in conjunction with the 18th Engineering Brigade
-Worked there from mid-October 1966 to December 1966 when the rest of the division arrived
(00:25:07) Adjusting to Vietnam Pt. 1
-Three weeks after arriving the monsoon season began
-Filled sand bags constantly
-One night after dinner he heard a boom and saw a fireball rising on the horizon
-Shocking and gut wrenching to see that and know he had a year left of being there
(00:27:15) Main Assignments in Vietnam
-Main assignment was to build the base for the rest of their battalion
-Also conducted some basic engineering patrols
-First objective was to get a drainage system established to contend with the monsoons
-Built wooden platforms to put their tents on
-Underneath the platforms they built mortar trenches for cover from bombardments
-Main field task was to clear the jungle
-Used modified bulldozers and Agent Orange to clear foliage
(00:30:35) Adjusting to Vietnam Pt. 2
-Terrain was mostly flat with sporadic hills and mountains
-Beautiful country when it wasn’t raining or hot
-Dry season caused it to be unbearably hot and dusty
-Adjusted to Vietnamese weather relatively quickly
-Considered seventy degrees to be cold
(00:32:46) Life at Bearcat Pt. 1
-Spent a lot of time on the base
-Went into the field to provide support for construction crews
-Bridge builders, road builders, jungle clearing crews
-Stayed at Bearcat until January or February 1968
(00:34:21) Mekong Delta Pt. 1
-Moved to the Mekong Delta to Dong Thap to build up base there
-Brought dredges in to drain the sand from the river and build a base there
(00:34:45) Life at Bearcat Pt. 2
-At Bearcat they had a pool, library, large PX, an average sized hospital, helipad
-Safer assignment than being elsewhere, but still vulnerable to attack
-Being in communications offered even more protection
(00:36:02) Being in Communications
-Learned to concentrate while on radio
-Felt fortunate not having to be in the field after hearing transmissions from the field
-Engineering units did get ambushed and sniped at
-Knew how to defend themselves and bulldozers offered protection
-Focused on staying alive and getting home in one piece

�-Knew that they took casualties
-He and his friends kept each other alive
(00:39:27) Supporting the 173rd Airborne Brigade
-Assigned to help the 173rd Airborne Brigade in the field
-Communications were placed in vulnerable position on the perimeter, didn’t make sense
-Remembers hearing something in the bushes during a late night watch
-In the morning saw that nothing had been actually been there
-APCs (armored personnel carriers) had flamethrowers attached to them
-Felt secure being behind that kind of firepower
-Radio antennas made them exposed
-Constantly worked to make them as inconspicuous as possible
-Primary target of Vietnamese snipers
(00:42:56) Traveling in Vietnam Pt. 1
-Traveled via trucks and helicopters
-Thrilling to travel 150mph at treetop level in a helicopter
-Rode in Caribou transports and Huey, and Chinook helicopters
-Riding in a Chinook was like riding in a washing machine
-On the Mekong Delta they lived and traveled on boats
-Barges that had been turned into barracks
-Landing craft that were used like trucks
-Gunboats that could move quickly, but drew a lot of fire
(00:45:20) Mekong Delta Pt. 2
-Managed to, to his amazement, build a two story wooden barrack on the Mekong Delta
-Took enemy fire pretty regularly (nightly or bi-nightly basis)
-Built rocket shelters while on the Mekong Delta
-During one bombardment ran from his tent to a shelter
-Determined to survive
-Bombardments were slightly organized, but also random
(00:47:37) Relations with the Vietnamese
-At Bearcat during the Tet Offensive there were Vietnamese workers
-After the Tet Offensive those workers seemed to vanish
-Suspected them of being Viet Cong
-Suspected that members of the South Vietnamese Army were part of the Viet Cong
-Got to see the lifestyle of the Vietnamese civilians during R&amp;R and traveling
-Could smell a village before you actually saw it
(00:50:42) Leave in 1967
-Didn’t feel disconnect with friends on returning home for leave
-Lost contact with them and just wanted to enjoy life while home
-Busy with going to Chicago on the weekends to meet with girl there
-Wanted to spend as much time with his family as possible
-Always knew in the back of his mind that he would have to go back to Vietnam
(00:51:40) Returning to Vietnam
-Traveled to Fort Dix, New Jersey
-From Fort Dix went to Anchorage, Alaska for refueling
-Flew over the Pacific to Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon, Vietnam
-Took a convoy back to base

�-Got back to Vietnam in August 1967
-Saw Bob Hope perform for Christmas
-Not a lot of guys got to see him
-Show lasted an hour or two
-Kept their mind off of things
-Humor was a morale boost
(00:54:50) Replacements
-New soldiers were apprehensive
-His job was to train, watch over, and essentially protect them
-Still had to carry out his own duties
-New soldiers still had to fine tune their combat abilities
-Being in combat situations with new soldiers caused a great deal of stress
-Had to answer their questions and carry out your own duty
(00:57:09) Drugs and Race Relations in Vietnam
-Drugs weren’t a problem while he was in Vietnam
-Racial issues didn’t come about during his deployment
-Saw each other as equals in combat
-There were a few minorities in his communications unit
-Camaraderie eased, if not erased, tensions
-Tremendous reliance on one another to survive
-Increase in draft led to an increase in tension and a drop in morale
-This didn’t happen during his deployment
(00:59:40) Death of a Friend
-Close friend from Fort Devens and Fort Riley was killed in April 1968 during bombardment
-He had swapped assignments with him
-Survivor’s guilt has haunted him for years
-Their mutual friend escorted the remains home
-Remains were lost in transition
-Deceased friend’s father worked for Pentagon and had had them taken to Arlington
-Eventually got the chance to get closure at the Vietnam Memorial and at the grave site
(01:03:24) Martin Luther King Jr. Assassination
-The MLKJ assassination was shocking and unbelievable to him
-Northerners were mortified by the aggression
-Doesn’t recall the way black soldiers reacted to it
-Primary focus at the time was getting home in April
(01:04:47) Traveling in Vietnam Pt. 2
-Traveling in well defended convoys led to safer travels
-Improvised explosives and landmines were still a threat
(01:06:00) A Company at Bearcat
-Worked with A Company briefly at Bearcat shortly before moving to Mekong Delta
-Placed in charge of communications
-Much smaller scale than base sized communications
-Localized work with platoons, not nearly as extensive as at battalion headquarters

�(01:07:02) Movies about Vietnam War
-Ending of “Platoon” always brings up survivor guilt about his friend
-Movies are accurate, but also dramatized and thematic
-“We Were Soldiers” is, in his opinion, the most accurate depiction of combat in Vietnam
-Actually met the writer of the book, Joseph Galloway
(01:09:11) Coming Home
-Returned to the United States in mid-April 1968
-Midst of high anti-war sentiments
-Landed in Oakland, California at 2 A.M.
-Advised (unofficially) to change into civilian clothes upon leaving the base
-Didn’t have to deal with name calling or harassment from protestors upon returning home
-Flew from California, to Chicago, to Muskegon
-Didn’t run into many protestors
-When they departed from Vietnam everyone was in great spirits
-Given thirty days of leave upon returning home
-Focused on getting used to being a civilian again
-Didn’t tell people that he was a Vietnam veteran
(01:12:08) Fort Sheridan, Illinois
-He was going to be sent to Germany for a year as part of enlistment
-Got sent to Fort Sheridan, Illinois (north of Chicago) instead
-Headquarters of the 5th Army
-Worked communications there
-Easy assignment
-Eight hour shifts
-Could go into Chicago after work if you had the first or second shift
-Made shift supervisor which meant that he and the other soldier on duty could relax
(01:13:51) Democratic National Convention 1968 and Anti-War Sentiments
-Stationed at Fort Sheridan at the time of the Democratic National Convention of 1968
-Placed on alert in case the National Guard needed back up dealing with the protests
-Believes there was some righteous indignation felt by the protestors there
-Shocked by the anti-war sentiments
-Felt that the troops were being wrongly persecuted
-You don’t have to support the war or the government, but the troops you should
(01:15:40) Leaving the Army
-Got out of the Army early in May 1969 to go back to college
-Younger soldiers on base had been asking questions about Vietnam before he left
-What could they expect over there?
-Most of them were anxious about being deployed
(01:17:10) Muskegon Community College
-Went back to Muskegon Community College after the Army
-Stood out because of being former military
-Older than most students (he was twenty two or twenty three years old)
-Still had a military haircut
-Professor asked him to do a class on Vietnam after finding out that he had been in Vietnam
-History of Vietnam, not his own personal experiences
-Students were in awe of him having served in Vietnam

�(01:18:30) Careers Post-Army
-Got a part time job in radio broadcasting
-Muskegon in 1969 or 1970
-Disc jockeying
-Enjoyed the work
-Got his 1st Class Radio Telephone License to be a broadcast engineer
-Meant job security, more money, and more responsibility
-Stayed in radio for about eight years
-Moved to Grand Rapids after college in Muskegon for a while
-Wound up helping Wyoming Public Schools in 1973 building up communications
-Got a job in public relations
-Worked with them for twenty years
(01:21:03) Reflections on Service and Veteran Involvement
-Positives of service were being able to serve his country, doing his duty, and surviving
-Started getting involved with other veterans in the early 1990s
-Rise of pride of having been in the military
-Asked questions by other veterans
-Usually asked if he had PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder)
-Finally went to veterans’ center and got counseling
-Much to his surprise he realized that he had PTSD
-Recognizes now how inaction in dealing with it could be tremendously negative
-Now attends group and individual therapy
-Negative of realizing that was that he now looks back on all the mistakes he had made
-Also had to have his wife go through rough times with him
-Healthy, open, and helpful therapeutic sessions
-Has learned how to manage his triggers and his temper
-Proud to have been a part of the veterans that pushed government to help soldiers
-Now the government actually helps new veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan
-Believes that the government needs to reevaluate how quickly they get into war
-Being a Vietnam veteran now has pride attached to it
-Helped force positive reform in the government

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                  <text>Smither, James&#13;
Boring, Frank</text>
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              <description>A related resource</description>
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                  <text>Veterans History Project (U.S.)</text>
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                  <text>eng</text>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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            <name>Title</name>
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                <text>Hale, Michael (Interview outline and video), 2013</text>
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                <text>Hale, Michael</text>
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                <text>Mike Hale was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1946. He attended Barbour Hall Academy and Marmion Military Academy until graduating in 1964. In August 1965 he enlisted in the Army for communications and attended training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, Fort Devens, Massachusetts, and Fort Riley, Kansas. He was attached to Headquarters Company of the 15th Combat Engineer Battalion of the 9th Division at Fort Riley and was deployed to Vietnam in mid-October 1966 where he served at Bearcat and at Dong Thap in the Mekong Delta until he was sent home in April 1968. Upon returning home he served at Fort Sheridan, Illinois until May 1969.</text>
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                <text>Smither, James (Interviewer)</text>
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                <text> WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)</text>
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                <text>Oral history</text>
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                <text>Veterans</text>
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                <text>Video recordings</text>
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                <text>Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American</text>
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                <text>United States. Army</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Moving Image</text>
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            <description>A related resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="542164">
                <text>Veterans History Project (U.S.)</text>
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            <name>Date</name>
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                <text>2013-12-05</text>
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            <name>Identifier</name>
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                <text>HaleM1562V</text>
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            <name>Source</name>
            <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="567479">
                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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            <name>Format</name>
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            <name>Publisher</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="1031073">
                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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  </item>
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