397 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/601385b29aa33971b5602be3363624bf.mp4 bf163e5765a85657c712387a7c9d873d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ab6ad46edbb8793297d5f7e4aaced2d9.pdf 3661eb427bd5443cd587d61dcadaa110 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Susan Ryan Bowers Vietnam War 49 minutes 45 seconds (00:00:11) Early Life -Born in Memphis, Tennessee -Moved to Florida when her father went to fight in World War II -Lived in Florida from 1941 to 1965 -Lived in Coral Gables and Jacksonville -Went to college in Tallahassee -She met and married Steven Ryan from Grand Rapids, Michigan -They met in 1963 and were married in January 1964 -Shortly thereafter he was deployed to Vietnam -Her father was in the Office of War Information and then worked in public relations for Pan-Am -Her mother was unemployed (00:01:47) Background and Training for Steven Ryan -She taught school for a couple years before marrying Steven and having children -Steven attended Xavier University in Cincinnati, Ohio -After he graduated from college he decided to enlist in the navy -He became an officer upon joining the Navy in 1960 -He became a bombardier/navigator in the A5 Vigilante bomber -He was sent to Newport News, Virginia for training -Then to Pensacola, Florida for further training -His training in Florida lasted for six months -He began with math, physics, and engineering courses upon joining the Navy -She remembers watching Steven doing carrier qualification training in Sanford, Florida -It was thrilling to watch the jets attempt to qualify for landing on an aircraft carrier -Never saw any carrier qualification accidents -She remembers seeing a midair collision with a civilian aircraft -A friend of hers was killed due to a cold catapult on an aircraft carrier -Cold catapult: Not enough steam to launch the jet, throwing it into the water (00:09:26) Meeting Steven -He was active duty on the USS Forrestal -She was living in Jacksonville, Florida and teaching when she met Steven in 1963 -They met each other on a blind date -He was stationed at Sanford Naval Air Station, Florida at the time -Wound up getting married and living together in Sanford County on Lake Mary -At the time there was only a post office and a laundromat -He came back from a European deployment in August 1963 and soon afterwards started dating -They got married in January 1964 -In June 1964 he was deployed to Vietnam, and wouldn’t return until June 1965 -On his European deployment he had gone to Naval Station Rota, Spain and to Italy -She wasn’t dating him during this deployment though, so the details were limited �(00:14:28) Living in Sanford -She didn’t get a job while living in Sanford -She wanted to spend as much time with Steven as possible prior to his deployment -There was a very active community for Navy officers and their spouses -It was all about living life to the fullest and being close with one another -It felt like being in a fraternity -There were squadron rivalries, games, and parties -Steven was part of RVAH 5 (a reconnaissance squadron) (00:16:00) Steven’s Deployment to the Pacific -He knew in January that he was going to be leaving in June -They would count the days together and just try to make the time count -They both accepted that it was going to happen -He was sent out to join the USS Ranger -It was a rarity for an East Coast unit to go on a West Coast deployment -Pilots were needed though, and his recon squadron was one of the best -He received a week of survival training in California -Evading being captured -Surviving in the wilderness without a weapon -Living on snakes and insects for sustenance -He was eventually “captured” and placed in an underground pen -Subjected to starvation and psychological torture -Most men lost at least twenty pounds by the end of the training (00:22:44) Serving in Vietnam -He left California in June after his survival training was complete -From California he sailed to Yokosuka, Japan -He spent the majority of that cruise at sea before Vietnam escalated -In August 1964 the Gulf of Tonkin Incident occurred and the resolution was passed by Congress -As a result this was the start of heavy American involvement in Vietnam -The first phase of that was an American aerial campaign against North Vietnam -He was involved in the initial bombing campaign against North Vietnam -Even that early in the war they already started to lose jets, and with those jets they lost pilots (00:25:25) Communication -They were able to communicate with each other via mail -He would talk about friends, food, and movies being shown on the ship -Never talked about any of his wartime activities or anything that happened on missions (00:26:49) Susan Coping with the Deployment -During Steven’s deployment Susan moved back to Jacksonville to be close to her family -She kept up with the war -Because she wasn’t in Sanford she didn’t have to see when wives lost husbands -She also didn’t get to get any of the immediate information or have that support network -In Jacksonville she didn’t have to deal with any harassment from antiwar protestors -She did see the protests on the TV and saw them get worse as the war continued -Felt that the lack of cooperation was abhorrent -She understood the frustration of a lot of servicemen with the politicians -The politicians wanted to run a war that the military knew how to win �(00:32:20) End of Deployment and Retirement -He was supposed to be home by March 1965, but the date kept getting pushed back -Eventually got pushed back to June 1965 -Didn’t know that he was coming home until the week of -Remembers when the squadron returned people dressed up and there was a celebration -It was momentous occasion for the survivors to return safely -Upon coming home he was the same man that he was when he entered the Navy -After that tour he decided to leave the Navy -He felt that it wasn’t the right career for him or for his family -The other men in the squadron were supportive of his decision -He went to work for Lear-Siegler in Grand Rapids, Michigan -They were designing and manufacturing long range navigational computers -He would frequently go to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio for his work -After the war he never faced harassment for having served in Vietnam -If anything, he was a curiosity in East Grand Rapids because he had served -People wanted to know about Vietnam and invited him to speak at gatherings -He was always well received when he spoke in front of a crowd about his service (00:39:59) Dangers in Vietnam -Missiles weren’t quite a threat yet during his time off the coast of Vietnam -Antiaircraft fire was still a very real threat for him -Because they were flying low, even small arms fire was still a threat -The landscape and the environment in general was also a hazard -They had to deal with fog and deal with navigating through a myriad of valleys (00:41:08) Reflections on the War -Resentful towards politicians for steering the direction of the war in the wrong direction -They both supported the military’s policies no matter what they were -Felt that the politicians would put the military in difficult and precarious situations -Both disappointed about people’s attitude during that time concerning the U.S. and the military (00:44:00) Day to Day Life in the Navy -She found the daily routine of being in the Navy fascinating -Steven would occasionally talk about the limitations of war, but he was never specific about it -Steven commented that there was always high adrenaline when combat missions were flown -Especially when you came back to the ship, and other men did not -In his squadron four (or five) men were killed in action during Vietnam -Aboard the ship he shared a small room with another airman -They had a bunk bed, a desk, and a chair -The pilots and navigators would spend most of their time in the “ready room” -Preparing for missions, or to just relax and swap stories with each other -There was a great sense of camaraderie on board the carrier (00:47:00) Reflections on Service -His naval service was a rewarding experience -It gave Steven direction in life -It also taught him how to be a leader and solve problems -They both feel that everyone should do at least one year of military or civil service -It would help many people to become more mature after high school or college �-It would also help to make people more realistic and more selfless -It changed his life for the better � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BowersS1708V Title A name given to the resource Bowers, Susan (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-12-02 Description An account of the resource Susan Ryan Bowers is the widow of Vietnam War veteran Steven Ryan. She was born in Memphis, Tennessee and then grew up in Florida. She met Steven in 1963 after a deployment to Europe. He was in the Navy as a bombardier/navigator for an A5 Vigilante in RVAH 5 Squadron (reconnaissance). They were married in January 1964 and in June of that year he was deployed to Vietnam where he saw action flying bombing missions along the coast of Vietnam. During his time in the service she was an active member of the Sanford Naval Air Station community in Florida and ardently supported his involvement with the military and with the Vietnam War. After his tour ended in June 1965 he decided to leave the Navy and they moved up to Grand Rapids, Michigan where he worked for Lear-Siegler, an aerospace company, which allowed him to still be involved with the military, specifically the Air Force at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bowers, Susan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e57c8af7e01e462b5fc43b8361ad98a6.mp4 826ee48e4db2dbf9168229024610674c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f733618dbed47f3b21e79f69e00d4214.pdf d676a5bb9b7dd27ec90648e861d3791d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Wilbur Bouwkamp (Bill) (00:44:00) Introduction (00:15) Family and Friends (00:20) • Born in Lamont, MI on January 28th 1919. Bouwkamp describes in some detail his dad’s duties and responsibilities as a farmer. (02:40) • Further describes the activities that he and his sister had on his dad’s 13-acre farm and gas station. His mom was a homemaker. (09:28) Pre-enlistment (15:05) • Went to Lamont Christian High School up until the 10th Grade. While there he played softball and football. Graduated the 10th Grade in 1934. (11:34) • After graduation, he briefly describes working at his father’s gas station. During the course of the Depression, he mentions that since his parents owned their own farm they made it by with their own food. (14:48) Enlistment and Training (16:39) • Was drafted into the Armed Forces in 1937 but wasn’t accepted because he had high blood pressure. Was put on furlough until 1941. • Bouwkamp mentions that he was at home the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked. Soon afterwards, he reported to Fort Custer where he was finally able to join. • Went to Fort Benning, GA for basic training. While there he joined up with the 10th Armored Division. Bouwkamp mentions the great amount of drilling they did there. • From there he was sent to New York for more training. (17:51) Afterwards, he was sent to Camp Gordon, GA for more training and finally back to New York City where he boarded a boat bound for Europe. (19:01) • Bouwkamp briefly describes the type of he was in. His tank had an 81-mm gun and a boom in the front of it. He further mentions that his division was the first to go directly to France from America. �• Bouwkamp mentions that his trip over the Atlantic was uneventful. France (21:36) • Bouwkamp describes his job as a recovery tank commander and the duties his unit performed. His job was to find damaged tanks and take them to the repair depot for repair. (22:43) • Describes briefly how he was wounded. He mentioned that he was near a German position near a town. As he was getting out of his repair tank he sustained a shoulder wound. (24:55) Further mentions that he was in the hospital for a few weeks afterwards with a knee wound. (25:42) Going Home (27:36) • Following the Bulge, he received 90 days of leave from duty. Was sent home via a ship. They stopped in the English Channel where General Black boarded with wounded. Afterwards, Bouwkamp returned to Michigan. (27:36) Apparently he had enough points to return home. • After his 90-day absence he was sent to Texas. While there he took it easy fishing and eating well. (27:36) • The day that FDR died he was in his barracks getting ready to board a troop ship home. If the weather hadn’t been foggy that day they would have left. (29:38) • Was sent from Texas to Fort Custer, MI where he was discharged. (30:25) After the War (33:55) • Bouwkamp mentions that he was in the doctor’s office when VE Day happened in Grand Rapids, MI. Describes the joyous celebrations that went on and shares his personal thoughts of that day. Afterwards, he went to Detroit, MI where he worked for an auto-mechanic and was married to his wife. (33:55) Further describes his grandchildren and how he met his wife. (37:56) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BouwkampW Title A name given to the resource Bouwkamp, Wilbur (Interview outline and video), 2007 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-01 Description An account of the resource Wilbur Bouwkamp served in the US Army between 1941 and 1945. After basic training, he was assigned to the 10 Armored Division, where he served on a recovery vehicle, a tank adapted to tow damaged tanks back to friendly lines where they could be repaired. He was wounded in action in Europe but returned to his unit, and received orders to ship home shortly before V-E Day. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bouwkamp, Wilbur Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/de689de91d59e7b573c0a859539f5fba.mp4 ec790d3d394d518ad2e2e899647e4797 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ab10f141d12412daafea55b6500b4a8e.pdf 082f02426c995f5bc5e6fc9391325ed0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Wallace Bouchard World War II-Post War 36 minutes 41 seconds (00:00:22) Early Life -Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on July 1, 1927 -Lived on Delaware Avenue in Grand Rapids for the first three or four years of his life -Moved to Wilson Avenue when he was three or four years old -Had an older brother, older sister, and a younger brother -Went to St. James Catholic School for elementary and middle school -Went to Union High School in Grand Rapids -Went to Grand Rapids Junior College (now Community College) and Aquinas College -Graduated from high school in 1944 (00:01:49) Enlisting & Getting Drafted -Enlisted in the Army Air Force Reserve in 1944 -Allowed to enlist when you were seventeen years old -Enlisted in Detroit -Received testing in Detroit -Depth perception testing and how you handled a primitive flight simulator -Received a letter in spring 1945 saying that the flight schools were shutting down -Turned eighteen on July 1, 1945 -Received a draft notice shortly after his eighteenth birthday -Ordered to report to Fort Sheridan, Illinois on August 12, or 13, 1945 -Went to Chicago by train and then took buses to Fort Sheridan -Parents supported his service -Older brother was already in the Army at the time -Worked an office job -Issued a uniform at Fort Sheridan -There were a lot of German prisoners of war at Fort Sheridan used for menial labor -Rumored that a lot of them were from Rommel's Afrika Korps -He didn't have any direct contact with them -One prisoner threw a pebble at him, but Wallace was nonplussed about it (00:05:47) Basic Training -Sent to Keesler Field near Biloxi, Mississippi in August 1945 for basic training -It was hot and humid even in late summer -It was easy because the war was over and the officers were relaxed -Bivouacked in a swamp for a week -Had to watch out for the venomous snakes and spiders -Every soldier was nervous about them -Slept in pup tents -Learned how to fire the M1 Garand rifle, Colt M1911 .45 pistol, and Thompson submachine gun �-Had to be careful with the Thompson SMG because of its recoil -Given weekend passes -Got to see New Orleans -Got along well with the other men (00:09:35) Mechanic Training -Assigned to be a mechanic and receive Aircraft & Engine (A&E) Mechanic Training -Assignment based on last name, not on testing -Stayed at Keesler Field for A&E Mechanic Training -Learned about aircraft structure, electrical components, hydraulics, and aircraft engines -Learned about the different types of engines with hands on training -Instructors were good and relaxed -Allowed to go on leave during Christmas 1945 -Caught the flu and had to report to Fort Custer, Michigan -Notified Keesler Field that he was sick -Got back a day late and was yelled at, but not punished -Allowed weekend passes -Found a good bar with good music in Biloxi (00:14:29) Specialist Training -Assigned to Chanute Field, Illinois for Specialist Training -It was a good base and the food was much better than at Keesler Field or Fort Sheridan -Assigned to learn about the P-47 Thunderbolt -Still used after the war, but it was being phased out -Saw a German rocket-powered fighter plane that was being kept at Chanute Field -Most likely the Me 163 Komet -Not allowed to go too close to it (00:16:21) Stationed at Biggs Army Airfield Pt. 1 -Given a seven day leave to visit home then reported to Biggs Army Airfield near El Paso, Texas -Took a train there -Got to see the Plains States -Saw the P-51 Mustangs of the 9th Air Force -Same planes that had been used during the Second World War -Assigned to an Engineering School to learn how to work on the P-51s -Wound up assigned to Headquarters Squadron and assigned to work on a C-47 transport -Noncommissioned officers were allowed to fly on the weekends, but not during the week -Made routine flights to San Antonio to transport aircraft engines to the base there -Most likely Lackland Air Force Base -Took three or four hours to fly from El Paso to San Antonio -Repairing a single engine took a full day -A 500, or 1000, hour inspection took a few hours -Got to fly quite a bit -Most dangerous task was removing the shocks from the wheels of planes -Plane's engines had to be on, and it had to be moving to remove the shocks (00:22:45) End of Service -9th Air Force was moved to Shaw Army Airfield near Greenville, South Carolina �-Woke up one day and all of the P-51s were gone -After the 9th Air Force left Biggs Army Airfield there was nothing to do -Spent two weeks doing nothing but walking around base, smoking, and playing cards -Learned that he was three days late to be discharged from the Army -Getting processed out of the Army began in October 1946 and he was out by November 1946 -Took a train back to Grand Rapids (00:26:23) Contact with Home -Wrote his parents and his girlfriend at least once a week -Broke up with his girlfriend after going home -She wanted to get married, but he was only 19 and not ready for marriage (00:27:00) Life after the Service Pt. 1 -Used the GI Bill for college -Joined Michigan's 52/20 Club -Program for veterans to receive $20 a week for 52 weeks (00:27:40) Stationed at Biggs Army Airfield Pt. 2 -It was hot in Texas -Had to refuel planes in the scorching heat -Got to ride in a P-51 Mustang during an air show at Biggs Army Airfield -Buzzed the field and did acrobatics -Flown by a colonel -Had never flown before he was in the Army -Got to fly in various bombers like the B-25 and the A-26 (00:31:03) Life after the Service Pt. 2 -The skills he learned in the Army helped him get a few jobs -Eventually got a job with the Grand Rapids City Water Department -Made foreman after only a year there (00:31:58) Reflections on Service -Learned a few practical skills especially when it came to metallurgy -Doesn't feel that it helped him mature too much -Enjoyed being on his own and being away from home -Joined the American Legion -Good social outlet granted to him because he was a veteran -No negatives about his service in the Army -Chance to see his cousin at Chanute Field prior to his cousin getting discharged -Chance to see Tijuana and visit its bars while he was stationed in Texas -Chance to travel around the U.S. and enjoyed that � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BouchardW1869V Title A name given to the resource Bouchard, Wallace Joseph (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-07-28 Description An account of the resource Wallace Bouchard was born on July 1, 1927 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He enlisted in the Army Air Force Reserve in 1944, but was ejected from that in spring 1945 due to the Second World War ending. Shortly after his eighteenth birthday on July 1, 1945 he received his draft notice and reported to Fort Sheridan, Illinois in mid-August 1945. He went to Keesler Field, Mississippi for basic training and stayed there for Aircraft & Engine Mechanic Training. He was sent up to Chanute Field, Illinois for Specialist Training with the P-47 Thunderbolt then was assigned to Biggs Army Airfield, Texas. While in Texas he was assigned to Headquarters Squadron of the 9th Air Force and worked on the squadron's C-47 as well as the 9th Air Force's P-51s. In November 1946 he was discharged from the Army. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bouchard, Wallace Joseph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Deb (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b23c68e64b1694d7382368efa3cf740.mp4 99773e110007bcc711174acdaf4ddc6f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ad85ef716533bc8d6061213c9785cb0f.pdf aed078777835ecdd6621c2526e4cd851 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II Willard Bosserman Length of Interview (00:49:50) Background Born on a farm in New Haven Township, Michigan; 1924 Father was a farmer who graduated from 8th grade; went up to a Ferris (Teacher’s Institute) which certified him to teach school for three years When Bosserman turned four years old, moved to Carson City; the only house on the block Father continued farming and selling produce  The Carson City hospital being built one block over Attended school and graduated from high school; after service, attended Michigan State University, Bachelor’s Degree  Eventually worked for a Master’s Degree Kept close attention to what was happening in Europe (00:02:20)  Received updates from the newspaper Remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor; was delivering papers at the time  Was 17 years old (graduated from high school at 19) Enlistment (00:04:00) Wasn’t thinking of enlisting  Discussed with three seniors from his church (Church of the Brethren); were conscientious objectors, didn’t have to go into the military  Only one of them took the deferment (preacher’s son), while the other two were drafted Bossereman given a deferment until graduation but action started right away (00:05:05)  Took his examination in Greenville  Had fainted in the blood-pressure line; uncomfortable with needles �Went to Detroit (his friend was rejected due to his light weight)  Given a choice between the Navy, started right away, or the Army, which would start two weeks later Chose the Army (00:06:30) Went back to Greenville to a take a train to Fort Custer Bosserman had quite a bit of background with mechanics; wanted to go into the Air Corps  Wasn’t accepted into the Air Corps Put into the Army Ordnance  Trained to fix trucks (Bosserman’s classification: half-track engine mechanic)  Some worked on small instruments, small arms; rifles, machine guns; some worked on canons  A little training in mechanics (civilian instructors) Fort Jackson, South Carolina (by train) (00:08:40)  Always looking out the window during the train ride Very active camp Didn’t notice the segregation issue; a lot of GIs in town Served with Black Units overseas Would go to classes then go to the shop to work on vehicles (followed manuals closely) (00:10:15)  Was going to do in-field training, but had six inches of snow fall; city never had that much snow before Had physical training, calisthenics; running up and down “Tank Hill” Emphasis on following orders Didn’t have too much trouble adjusting to the military life �Did bayonet training, rifle training (how to hold and shoot it)  Had some experience shooting: 12-guage shotgun, bought from a friend, and a .22 Stayed in Jackson, off and on, for 18 months (00:12:55) Changed from medium maintenance to heavy maintenance  Only had one tank to work on  Got a chance to drive the tank; a lot of changing gears, used sticks instead of a steering wheel o Had the port open to see Went up to Tennessee to have maneuvers there; servicing an infantry company  Didn’t have much to do since they came the last day o Drove around in the jeep; given a meal in exchange for a ride in the jeep o Ran into some moonshiners; bought a bottle  Spring of 1944, a lot of big maneuvers happening in Tennessee Main job was to maintain transport, fix vehicles (00:16:30) Assigned at different times; assigned to 301st Heavy Maintenance Field Company Went back to Fort Jackson, also went to Camp Mackall  Worked with a parachute group; having trouble with their rifles, not glued properly  The Lieutenant had said the paratroopers were tough people, but they got along well with them; apparently the paratroopers had gotten a similar message about them  Camp Mackall was in North Carolina Gave service to the 87th Division, then went to Camp Rucker, Alabama  Developed a heat rash there; wrote home about it Had taken a train to Camp Rucker; were lead by an army band from the barracks Serviced an Infantry Division, 66th �Didn’t go overseas for a while due to his company having to prepare other units’ equipment (00:20:05) In November 1944, had a red alert; shipped out overseas from Camp Shanks (New York) in December  There for about a month First night, had stoves heated with hard coal, hard to start and warm up Travelled through some of the places nearby (Weehawken, New York City, etc.) Could go to the Red Cross to get food, but were already well fed  When men were coming back from overseas, they would by fresh vegetables to enjoy Went to work as stevedores in Weehawken for a few days, just something to do (00:22:40)  Helped load a ship  Were using hooks to pull goods At Camp Shanks for about a month before being sent overseas Heading Overseas (00:23:15) Boarded the SS Washington and arrived in Liverpool on 16th of February  Washington was a cruise ship; 6,000 aboard  Took 10 days to get there  Given work during the voyage o Working on the third deck galley, had the porthole open when, suddenly water came sloshing in  A lot of the men got seasick; Bosserman did not  Would dump garbage from the galley overboard Had escort ships, but no convoy (00:25:40) Once arriving in Liverpool, moved to another town to scrap tanks  There for a couple of weeks � Some people got a trip to London; Germans still buzz-bombing Went to South Hampton to board a merchant marine vessel (00:27:00)  Went over to Le Havre (France) Went to Camp Lucky Strike  A tent city; would fill cans with sand and gasoline to have heat Stayed there for a couple of weeks Two meals a day until they got their own kitchens Bosserman had made Technician, 5th Grade; KP (Kitchen Police) (00:28:15)  Thought he would be relieved of KP duty after making Tech, 5th Grade (same as a Corporal), but wasn’t  Would peel potatoes often  Didn’t do KP, as much, in field kitchens Germany (00:29:05) Moved out of Lucky Strike to Aachen  Mechanics were last to be put in a truck to fix others that had problems  One truck did fall out of line, flat tire; convoy continued ahead  Remembers Düren, Germany, looked like a plow had gone through and leveled it Were changed to the 15th [19th?] Army (were in the 2nd in the States); 64th Ordnance group; attached to the Army Had engineers in their outfit; rigged an EM (electromagnet) at the front of their truck to move debris and prevent flat tires Arrived in Aachen, Germany April/May 1945 (00:31:50) In a town called Peck when the war ended Billeted in a former resort hotel; on the third floor �Had the shop a little ways away; someone rigged a diesel engine without a starter and a jeep engine to get the diesel working Didn’t see much of the local population (00:33:00)  Had a rule of no fraternization with the citizens Met with a lot of German POWs in Europe; worked together  Picked up a few words to get by Moved out to an old glider camp Went to Camp Brooklyn (00:35:00) Being scheduled to head over to the Philippines Getting prepared to leave from Marseilles (France)  Got a chance to go to some baseball games Four days before heading to the Philippines, the bombs were dropped Japan; subsequent surrender Bosserman and his group put on Liberty Ships back to the US  Mediterranean sea was smooth as glass  Atlantic was different  Put on guard duty because he wasn’t that seasick Discharge (00:37:25) Newport, Virginia Company broken up; some went to Camp Grant, Rockford, Illinois  There for nine months to get points for discharge  Met his wife there who was working for the USO o Bosserman and some other GIs went to her parents house to have pie o Kept in touch with her; went back to Rockford, Illinois after staying in MI for a little while (discharged in Aril 1946) �o Rented a room there for $5/week and got a job Overseas Cont. (00:39:10) Saw some units that were all black; servicing vehicles for them Stayed where they were stationed mainly; would have vehicles brought in Was with the same people he had trained with until they got back to the US Had good officers  The Captain was chewed out after he told his men to pitch tents  Another fellow (Blau) was promoted to Captain afterwards  Schultz wanted to have this promotion, but was put as an Interpreter Most of the officers were citizen soldiers Their cadre (the people who trained them) was of long-time soldiers from Trinidad His company was never under fire  Not too much of a concern for them due to their location Had German POWs in Camp Grant; had restrictions (curfews, etc.) (00:43:35)  Was acquainted with a former German POW years later who was an artist Civilian Life (00:44:35) Didn’t get married right away  Had time to earn money then go back up to Lansing to attend Michigan State University  Married the summer of his freshman year Got a degree in Agriculture (Soil Conservation); became as an Assistant Agriculture Agent in Pontiac (through the school)  Assigned for livestock and fruit Transferred Port Huron, then Lake City Got involved in Planning Commissions, etc.; received awards for his work �Learned discipline and perseverance (00:47:40) Met a lot of different people in the Army  Was antagonized by a fellow and had a round of fist cuffs with him  Also did this with his friends (had boxed when he was younger) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BossermanW Title A name given to the resource Bosserman, Willard (Interview outline and video), 2010 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-09-02 Description An account of the resource Willard Bosserman served in World War II as a mechanic in the Army. He was drafted in 1943 and worked in a maintenance company attached to the 87th Division, and then to the 66th Division. His company shipped to Europe in December, 1944, and took part in the final campaign in Germany. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bosserman, Willard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/89162dba74b7052d86c46ea343dd7c12.m4v 81976db78846f78abee48e93dfd4e837 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d2a68e38166ba62d7f78ff2a1ff49cf.pdf f9dda5a2b031f688aad4e2cdd9e24270 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Robert Borey World War II 1 hour 27 minutes 31 seconds (00:00:14) Early Life -Born in Flint, Michigan in 1920 -When he was an infant his family moved to Detroit -Lived in Detroit for a while -When he was in his teens his family moved back to Flint -Attended high school there -His father worked for General Motors -Initially in the factory itself and then in the office -He had one younger brother -He graduated from high school in 1938 -Went to Flint Junior College part time -Worked at AC Spark Plug (now ACDelco) for $0.65 an hour (00:02:46) Start of the War -Before Pearl Harbor he paid some attention to the war in Europe -Remembers being out in the street playing touch football on December 7, 1941 -Someone came out and told them that Pearl Harbor had been bombed -At didn’t time didn’t know the gravity of the situation -Later learned how serious the attack had been -When he was in the Navy he met some men who had been at Pearl Harbor that day (00:04:56) Enlisting in the Navy and Basic Training -He joined the Navy shortly after Christmas 1941 -He knew for sure that he didn’t want to get drafted into the Army -Went to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training -For him basic training was a culture shock -First time that he had been subject to verbal abuse -Had to adjust to getting up at 3 AM to go on marches -He got sick in basic and had to go to the hospital for a couple weeks -Learned about how to use and to maintain a rifle -Learned general information about the Navy -Got used to taking orders and being disciplined -During the second of half of basic training you got weekends off and could visit Chicago -In basic training he got paid $21 a month -In Chicago the Navy provided you with free hotel lodging and baseball tickets -One time when he was in Chicago on leave he missed the last metro train back to the base -Cab driver helped get him back to base -People in Chicago were incredibly supportive of military personnel -Basic training lasted eight weeks -Stayed a little longer at Great Lakes because of his hospital stay �(00:12:55) Hospital Corps School -He was waiting for an assignment at Great Lakes -He was offered ten days of leave if he signed up for Hospital Corps School -He signed up for that training and stayed at Great Lakes for the training -He had classes all day -The goal was to learn a lot about medicine in a short time -That training lasted another eight weeks -Received training on first aid, pharmaceuticals, and other general medicine (00:15:28) Assignment to California -He got assigned to the Navy hospital in San Francisco -Got sent to California on an old train -Slept in the chairs -Stopped at a town in Nebraska where the people fed you -They fed every troop train that came through their town -Located at North Platte, Nebraska -Lived in a tent on the hospital lawn initially -Worked in a ward and met the men who had been at Pearl Harbor there -Learned more about medicine in the hospital -During down time would go and watch autopsies being performed -Led to him getting into the surgical program -Watched an operation and was advised to become an operating room technician -Became close with a Dr. Ogden who was from Twin Cities, Minnesota -One of the best surgeons he ever worked with in the Navy (00:23:30) Pre-Deployment -Prior to deployment went down to San Diego and then to Camp Pendleton -Receiving preparatory training through the Marines -Grueling physical training -Had to qualify on the obstacle course to be able to deploy -Went to the Navy hospital at Long Beach -Bought a 1925 Buick in Long Beach -He had nowhere to store the car when he was deployed -So he found a good spot to park the car and he left it -Before they deployed Dr. Ogden said they were short on surgical supplies -So he and another sailor managed to find and steal some more surgical supplies (00:30:02) Deployment to the Pacific Theatre -Got attached to the 1st Marine Division -Got on a ship in Long Beach -During the voyage to the warzone he didn’t get seasick (00:31:00) Guadalcanal -First stop was in Guadalcanal -First impression of the island was that it was hot -When he arrived the Battle of Guadalcanal was largely over -Spent the first night sleeping on the ground -Took care of sick call for the Marines on the island -Some Marines just didn’t want to work -Some men were contracting tropical disease �-Remembers one man coming in because of malaria and dying -Took the drug, Atabrine, to prevent malaria -After the Navy he came home and contracted malaria then (00:36:22) Northern Solomon Islands -After Guadalcanal went to a smaller island in the northern portion of the Solomon Islands -The island was going to be used for an airstrip with which to attack Bougainville -Boarded an LST (landing ship, tank) and sailed north for about two, or three, days -He was told that they would have to invade the island -Fortunately, he didn’t have to be in one of the first waves -The invasion ultimately went off without any initial opposition -Remembers when they ran into a Japanese machinegun nest -One soldier with a bulldozer drove up and buried the nest destroying it -The terrain was mostly jungle -Had to sleep on the ground because there weren’t even tents -Didn’t have any bathrooms, or outhouses, so they had to use the jungle -Finally got assigned to a tent and met one of his best friends that way -His friend wound up getting killed in the fighting on Okinawa -When he went home he talked with his friend’s girlfriend at Michigan State -He still feels bad about his friend’s death -Once they were established they started receiving casualties from different forces -Got men from the Air Corps, PT Boat crewmen, and Marines -They had a small hospital on the island -Saw some of the native populace -Friendly towards Americans -He got used to seeing native women that didn’t wear tops -Remembers when President Roosevelt died there was a lot of apprehension -No one knew how Truman would be as a president (00:47:38) Interacting with Casualties -He remembers when they brought in a soldier that had a serious head injury -The man’s brain was exposed -Called over a doctor and immediately he said the man was a goner -He remembers when an Army casualty was brought in -Told them that he was glad to be in the Navy’s hands -Said that the Army doctors were worthless (00:51:10) Downtime and Contact with Home -Movies were shown on their island a couple nights each week -They were B-Rated movies (not top quality productions) -They were fun to just laugh at and unwind with -Once a month they were given two cans of beer -Came from unknown breweries in the United States -Cigarettes were free -Spent a lot of time reading -Read whatever books were available -Also read the Stars & Stripes military newspaper -He got letters from home -He got care packages from home �-It showed that people back home still cared -Over time it just got to be incredibly boring (00:54:58) End of the War -The island he was on was essentially abandoned as the war moved closer to Japan -He was given a thirty day leave to go home -While on leave reported to a military office in Detroit for a psych evaluation -Told the doctor that he wasn’t fit for military service -Sent on a train to San Francisco and went to Treasure Island in San Francisco Bay -He was placed on a ship and sailed to Pearl Harbor -When he arrived in Pearl Harbor he saw hundreds of ships -Learned that they were massing there for the invasion of Japan -Given manuals about what to do once Japan was invaded -While he was waiting to invade the first atomic bomb was dropped on Japan -The second atomic bomb was dropped three days later and Japan surrendered -He was relieved that he wouldn’t have to take part in the invasion of Japan -He never saw so many happy people -Went to Sasebo, Japan (a naval base) -Stayed there for a few days -Went ashore and walked around the city -The whole city was in ruins due to bombing -Japanese people would not look at American soldiers -Went into a destroyed naval building and looked around -Ran into a Japanese man who ran away as soon as he saw him (01:03:30) Coming Home -Returned to his ship and was told that he had enough “points” to go home -Points were given based on duration of service, combat, and dependents -A ride was then arranged for him to get back to the United States -He boarded a ship and sailed to the Philippines -Stayed in the Philippines for a couple days -Boarded another ship that was bound for the United States -On the way home ran into a typhoon -Helmsman did well in the storm and kept the ship level throughout it -Pulled into the port in Seattle -The helmsman who had done so well in the storm managed to crash into a dock -Spent a few days in Seattle -Went back to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois -Spent a couple days there and then was discharged from the Navy -Took the metro train to Chicago and then boarded another train and went home (01:07:40) Life after the War -Took a couple weeks off -Went back to work for AC Spark Plug -Attended the General Motors Institute, which was an engineering school, on the GI Bill -Met a girl and got engaged to her on the third date -Took his engineering courses and wanted to specialize in tool design -In his third year there he decided to drop out -He got into sales and worked at a small spring company �-On his very first sales call he made a sale -The next fifty sales were not as successful -Eventually got good at sales and made a good living off of it -Got married to the girl that he was engaged to -They had three children together -Lived in a nice house in a nice neighborhood in Flint, Michigan -After his children were grown and out of college his wife got cancer -Spent $80,000 fighting the illness, but she eventually succumbed to it -After his wife died he was overwhelmingly depressed -On top of that he lost his job and had to sell the house to pay off the debt -His son worked for American Seating in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Wound up moving to Grand Rapids to be closer to his son there -Got a job at the Grand Rapids Public Museum -Started to enjoy his life again (01:21:23) Reflections on Service -The Navy definitely changed his life -At the end of his service several men told him how much they had appreciated him -He didn’t dislike his service, but was glad to get out -He had had good and bad experiences in the Navy -He learned to get along with people in the Navy -War made him mature quickly and showed how people really were -Showed the total selflessness and selfishness of people � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BoreyR1659V Title A name given to the resource Borey, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-07-24 Description An account of the resource Robert Borey was born in Flint, Michigan in 1920. He finished high school in 1938 and went to work, and enlisted in the Navy right after Pearl Harbor. He trained at Great Lakes, Illinois, and became a hospital corpsman. He was assigned first to a Navy hospital in San Francisco, and then went to San Diego to train with the Marines. he deployed to Guadalcanal in 1943, and then his hospital moved into the Northern Solomon Islands. He served as a surgeon's assistant and helped treat many sick and wounded soldiers. He got leave home in 1945, and was on his way back when the war ended. After a brief stay in Sasebo, Japan, he came home and was discharged. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Borey, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy United States. Marine Corps Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/15410dc99fc7ed5078ec808eda3a1dcf.m4v c90055343321e8b41b57df8c21045d8d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cf1b65153eacd5e3ffb6d761450c31c9.pdf 7d200fcfae94b3846e6482e9d6213be2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Bruce Bond Vietnam War 54 minutes 6 seconds (00:00:18) Early Life and Awareness of the Vietnam War -Born in Charlottesville, Virginia on December 2, 1950 -Grew up in Charlottesville -He enjoyed his high school experience -Involved in football and baseball -In high school he was aware of the Vietnam War -A girlfriend’s brother was in the military police in Vietnam -He followed the news on Vietnam -Several boys from his high school went to Vietnam -Two of them were killed there -He graduated from high school in 1969 (00:02:04) Enlisting in the Army -He enlisted in the Army when he was still in high school -As soon as he graduated he went to basic training -He knew that he couldn’t pay for college with a sports scholarship -Felt that the GI Bill would be the best way to go to college -His father had been in the Air Force, so he knew from experience he didn’t want to join that -He also had no interest in becoming a Marine either (00:03:09) Basic Training -Basic training began in early summer 1969 -He was sent to Fort Gordon, Georgia for basic training -His first thought was, “What have I gotten myself into?” after being greeted by drill instructors -He adjusted to basic training and enjoyed it -He hunted when he was younger, so rifle training came easy for him -Trained with the M-16 assault rifle, M72 LAW (rocket launcher), M-60 machine gun -Basic training lasted eight weeks -Trained with a mix of draftees, enlisted men, and National Guardsmen (00:04:35) Advanced Infantry Training -He took advanced infantry training (AIT) at Fort Gordon as well -His specialization was as an infantryman -He enjoyed his AIT experience -In AIT he trained with a wider array of weapons -Received land navigation training and how to live in the field -This also involved learning how to go out on patrols -AIT lasted another eight weeks (00:05:13) Deployment to Vietnam -At the end of AIT he was allowed to go home for thirty days of leave -After his leave he reported for his deployment to Vietnam -He had received his deployment orders at the end of AIT �-He knew from the start he would probably wind up in Vietnam -Officially being deployed didn’t shock him -In a way he was looking forward to going to Vietnam -His instructors in training had been Vietnam veterans, so they helped prepare him -Made sure that they knew how to set up ambushes, call in airstrikes, and eat rations -He reported in Seattle, Washington and stayed there for three days -From Seattle he flew to Vietnam and landed in Cam Ranh Bay -In Cam Ranh Bay he received his orders and a couple days of in-country training -The in-country training basically served as an introduction to being in Vietnam -The first two things that he noticed was how hot it was, and how the country smelled -Overall, it was a cultural shock for him -He arrived in Vietnam in September 1969 (00:09:10) Assignment to 58th Infantry Platoon (Scout Dog) -In Cam Ranh Bay he received his orders to join the 58th Infantry Platoon (Scout Dog) -It was a part of the 3rd Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division at Camp Evans -Going into his assignment he wasn’t sure of what to expect -At Camp Evans he was assigned to a dog and received handler training from another handler -Handler training lasted two weeks -The dog was a German Shepherd whose name was Jim Dandy -He had already been trained, but he had a bad attitude (bit everyone) -If he (Bruce) couldn’t get Jim to cooperate Jim would be put down -After spending two hours with Jim they became a perfect match (00:12:34) Dog Handler Training -Started off with simple commands -Sit, heel, come -Moved on to running the obstacle course together -Consisted of crawling in tunnels, jumping obstacles and getting over low walls -The simple training lasted about three, or four, days -Jim was an off leash dog which meant he could go a short distance away from Bruce in the field -If Jim was off the leash in the field Bruce would communicate with hand signals -He learned how to recognize Jim’s signals -Finding a booby trap, spider hole, enemy ambush, or a sniper -At night they walked the perimeter of Camp Evans as part of the training -Jim was incredibly good at finding the tripwires to booby traps -After they forged a bond together Jim was incredibly protective of Bruce -He had always been good with animals, so the training wasn’t too difficult -The other men were impressed by how obedient Jim was with Bruce (00:17:34) Jim Dandy’s Background -Jim came from Texas -His family had donated him to the Army -Received training at Fort Benning, Georgia and was deployed to Vietnam -Somewhere during that time is when Jim became aggressive and violent -Jim was specifically used as a scout dog -Walking point with their handler looking for ambushes, or other signs of danger -There were other dogs used for finding mines, search and rescue, or searching for drugs -Jim was never bothered by gunfire �-He was fed a mix of canned and dried dog food -This added food weight and water weight to Bruce’s rucksack (00:20:37) Operating in the Field -They would go out to the field together and meet the commanding officer of a unit -They were never assigned to a specific unit, just worked with unit’s that needed them -He served with units in the 1st/506th, 2nd/506th, and all of the units in the 3rd Brigade -During helicopter rides Jim was calm and even friendly -Allowed the helicopter crewmen to pet him -He would go up between the pilot and copilot and let them pet him -They would stay with a unit for about a week and then return to Camp Evans -The length of the assignment varied with each unit -After a certain amount of missions dogs needed to return to Camp Evans for an extended period -This was especially necessary when they were operating in the mountains -When they were in the field Jim would have to take 15-20 minute breaks -This was to keep him from getting too worn out -In the field Jim would routinely find North Vietnamese, or Viet Cong, bunkers -He was also good at finding booby-traps and enemy ambushes -There were times where they would go into the field and they didn’t find anything -In the field he always had to walk point with Jim (walking in front of the unit) -The other troops welcomed them because they knew a scout dog increased survivability -The only problem was that the troops always wanted to pet Jim -Jim was never okay with that and bit troops that tried to pet him -Difficult for the troops because a dog was a symbol of home and normalcy (00:27:07) Unit Rotation -After they got done in the field they would return to Camp Evans by helicopter -After a mission they would stand down at Camp Evans for about half a week -There were twenty man-dog teams in their platoon available for field work -Sometimes the demand for a scout dog team was so high they only got back for a day, or two -At Camp Evans Jim always stayed by Bruce’s side -Jim was only left alone when Bruce went to shower, or to the mess hall -They even slept in the same room together -During the monsoons their missions slowed down -It was too hard to get out to the field because it was too hard to fly in the rains -Aside from transportation the dogs couldn’t pick out scents as well in the rain (00:31:20) Firebase Ripcord -He and Jim were sent to Firebase Ripcord in early June 1970 -About one month before the start of the Battle of Ripcord on July 1, 1970 -They would leave the base in the morning for patrols and return in the evening -Just patrolled the area around Firebase Ripcord -Being in the A Shau Valley was a dangerous and foreboding assignment -The A Shau Valley roughly divided Vietnam and Cambodia -Had to stay alert at all times -On Ripcord the first time for about three, or four, days then they would rotate to other firebases -Whenever they returned to base they would swap information with other handlers -He always felt invincible with Jim at his side �(00:35:45) Jim in the Field -When Jim found a booby-trap he would sit -If he found an enemy position the hair on his back stood up and he looked in that direction -At that point Bruce would go and alert the rest of the patrol to Jim’s discovery -If they were in a valley it was harder for Jim to smell -If they were on a hill, or any elevated ground, Jim could pick up scents much easier -If Jim found something the patrol would then make a plan of attack to deal with the threat -Whenever the found something Jim would stay quiet and never gave away their position (00:38:10) Getting Wounded -He was with Bravo Company of the 1st/506th when he was wounded -He and Jim left to go into the field on June 30, 1970 -They went out to the helipad with another handler and his dog -As the helicopters came in the other handler and his dog boarded the first helicopter -Bruce and Jim boarded the second helicopter -Bruce had originally planned to board the first helicopter -On July 4 the other handler and his dog were killed in action by a booby trap -It has haunted Bruce to this day to think about that -Bruce and Jim were with Bravo Company in their night defensive position (field camp) -Getting ready to go out for patrols, nothing was happening in the area yet -Jim picked up a scent and alerted them to a Vietnamese presence just to their left -As Bruce went to alert the commander a satchel charge exploded in the center of camp -It was either an attempt to kill the officers, or kill Bruce and Jim -The Vietnamese knew scout dog teams were highly valued -After the satchel charge exploded they started taking rocket propelled grenade fire -In the fighting eighteen men were wounded and one man was killed -When the fighting began and Bruce got hurt Jim became frantic -By the time the medic reached Bruce, Bruce had to hold down Jim to calm him down -In the fighting Bruce had shattered his left foot and took shrapnel in his right leg and back -Jim began to lick Bruce’s foot to try and heal him -They were both medevaced out of the field -It was the only time that Jim didn’t do well on a helicopter (00:45:19) Leaving Vietnam -He and Jim made it back to Camp Evans -Before being treated for his wounds he took Jim to his quarters and made sure he was fed -He refused being evacuated because he wanted to stay with Jim -He had extended his enlistment for six months just to be able to stay with Jim -Against his wishes he was sent to the 95th Evacuation Hospital -A few days later he woke up on a C-130 bound for Yokohama, Japan -There was an ugly confrontation because he wanted to go back -Spent two months in the hospital in Japan -From Japan he was sent to Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington D.C. -He wound up spending over a year there -He had to learn to walk again -Basically, he had been in worse shape than he thought he was (00:47:48) Post-War Service -After being released from Walter Reed he was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia �-Worked with the military police and their dogs -He had tried to go back to Vietnam, but his request was denied -His wounds prevented him from going, and the withdrawal was starting -At Fort Benning he worked as a trainer for the canine units -Later on he joined the 11th Special Forces Group in Richmond, Virginia -It was a reserve unit at the time -He reenlisted and had gone into the Army Reserves -When the 11th Special Forces Group was deactivated in 1994, he left too (00:49:55) Jim’s Fate -After Bruce left, the Army attempted to reassign Jim to a new handler -No matter what they tried Jim would not cooperate with a new handler -One day Jim broke out of the kennel and started to go towards the aid station at Camp Evans -Bruce thinks that Jim was going to look for him -Eventually the troops were able to capture Jim, and he was put down -In retrospect he feels that it was a better fate than what happened to the other dogs -At the end of the war service dogs were given to South Vietnam -Intention was to have the South Vietnamese use them like the U.S. had -Instead the South Vietnamese troops killed and ate the dogs -Now service dogs are retired and allowed to be adopted by a former handler (00:53:00) Life after the Army -He got out of the Army and became a police officer -He worked in a police K-9 unit for a few years -After K-9 work he worked as a detective and on a SWAT team -He worked in Richmond, Virginia as well as in South Carolina -He made police work his career and wound up retiring from it � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BondB1690V Title A name given to the resource Bond, Bruce (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-10 Description An account of the resource Bruce Bond was born in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 1950 and grew up there and attended high school there. After graduating from high school in 1969 he enlisted in the Army. He trained at Fort Gordon, Georgia, as an infantryman, but when he went to Vietnam he trained as a scout dog handler and was assigned to the 58th Infantry Platoon (Scout Dog), which was part of the 3rd Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division, based at Camp Evans. He and his scout dog, Jim Dandy, served on patrols with different units of the brigade, and took part in the actions around Firebase Ripcord in 1970. Bruce was wounded on June 30, 1970, and was sent to the US for treatment. He requested reassignment to Vietnam, but wound up as a scout dog instructor at Fort Benning, Georgia, for the remainder of his enlistment. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Bruce Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f69aa3fcd817e5e4c3cc4fdf4f6bf39d.mp4 126556f9f0ad36e558e9d1c14748b4cf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/615f4e96c20ff2bb13bd54e569aadd8d.pdf a5495e88f5343fca9052d1b247ba9b29 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Bert Boersma World War II 1 hour 32 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born in Moline, Michigan -Most likely in 1925 -Grew up on a farm until his family moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan when he was 14 years old -Parents were not farmers by trade, but knew how to grow crops -Useful during the Great Depression because they could grow their own food -Father was a contractor in Grand Rapids -He was one of eleven children -Youngest child was born after they moved to Grand Rapids (00:01:40) Start of World War II -Paid a lot of attention to the events happening in Europe in the 1930s -Parents came from the Netherlands -When Germany overran the Netherlands, his parents were shocked -He was home and the news was on the radio -Heard President Roosevelt's "Day of Infamy" speech about the attack on Pearl Harbor -Wanted to get into the service and have revenge on the Japanese -In high school when Pearl Harbor happened -Saw a lot of young men enlisting and getting drafted out of high school (00:03:40) Getting Drafted -Finished high school in 1942 and got drafted either later that year, or in early 1943 -Reported to Fort Custer, Michigan for processing on February 26, 1943 (00:04:26) Basic Training -Sent to Camp Roberts, California for basic training -Got sent cross country by train -Got to sleep in Pullman cars with actual beds and eat in the dining car -Camp Roberts was beautiful with the mountains for a backdrop -Started basic training at the end of the rainy season, so they trained through the dry season -Most likely in early spring 1943 -The dry brush would catch fire from the artillery shells being fired into the hills -Something that he had never experienced -The trainees would be used to combat the wildfires -Knew what to expect after being processed at Fort Custer -First time that he had ever been exposed to so much swearing -Had spent some time in the Michigan National Guard, so the Army wasn't totally foreign -A lot of the training was close order drills, weapons training, marching, and 25 mile �hikes -Trained with rifles, machine guns, and mortars -Men would fall asleep while they were on the long hikes -It happened to him -Also had to eat breakfast while they were hiking -The base wasn't new, but not old either -All of the men that he trained with were draftees -A lot of them came from Grand Rapids and he knew some of them -After training they got split up -Basic training lasted ninety days (00:09:27) Assignment to the 33rd Infantry Division & Deployment -Assigned to the 130th Infantry Regiment of the 33rd Infantry Division -Illinois National Guard unit that had been called up before the war -Unit had trained on Mt. Rainier, Washington -Sent down to the Mojave Desert -He joined them before they went overseas -First duty station was on Hawaii guarding the islands -The division arrived on July 12, 1943 -Spent nine months on Hawaii -Received some jungle training -Spent six months on the island of Hawaii -Sent three months on the island of Kauai where they received jungle training -Sent to Pearl Harbor and boarded a ship bound for Finschhaefen, New Guinea -Didn't get to see Pearl Harbor because they got there, and left, at night -Sailed from California to Hawaii on a converted cruise ship -It was his time being on the ocean -Did not get seasick -Sailed from Hawaii to New Guinea on another converted cruise ship (00:12:58) Arrival in New Guinea -When they arrived, all they could see was coconut groves -Already had a base and an airfield at Finschhaefen -Arrived during the raining season -Unit arrived on May 11, 1944 -Went to a bivouac area where the mud was knee deep -Men would fall into bomb craters and nearly drown -Had to dig a drainage ditch to the ocean -Once they got rid of the water it started to look more like a camp (00:15:00) Stationed on New Guinea -Stayed there for six months -Received some jungle training and went on patrols -Some units landed further up the coast and on other islands of the Dutch East Indies -He was not involved with those landings -On patrol and followed a trail that cut through the jungle and over the hills -He found a primitive village with buildings on stilts -Villagers were afraid, but a young boy approached him -Able to speak in broken English �-Explained to Bert that, "Yanks come, Japs run" -Turned out that it was a settlement established by German Lutherans -Japanese moved farther up the coast and took over Biak and Hollandia -He did not encounter any Japanese troops while he was on New Guinea -It was wet, jungle rot was common, and malaria was rampant -Had to take atabrine to prevent malaria -Not enjoyable, but necessary -His regiment worked on the docks loading, and unloading ships (00:19:36) Stationed on Morotai -Moved to Morotai in the Dutch East Indies closer to the front line -Arrived after the invasion and the airfield was secured -Most likely in late December 1944 -Every night there were air raids targetting the runway -Could repair the runway quickly -Bombers would leave before dawn, hit targets as far away as Borneo, and return by sunset -Bombers would come back heavily damaged, hit the runway, and veer off into the jungle -There were still Japanese forces on the island -It was their job to hunt down the remnants and eliminate the Japanese -The living conditions were similar to how they were on New Guinea -Hot, and humid -Remembers on a patrol they ran out of water and found a pool of stagnant water -One soldier drank that water out of his helmet and chased it with chlorine pills -Supposed to let the pills treat the water first, but he was unharmed -Found some Japanese camps -Got rid of them -Survivors fled into the jungle -A Company, his company, took no casualties -B Company lost five men and were buried in the jungle -A Company was sent to recover the bodies a week later -The bodies were bloated and stinking -Carried them on bamboo stretchers to a stream then put them on a raft -Floated the bodies down the coast and the Navy picked them up -Worked on docks loading and unloading ships -Got moved out to a ship and would get ferried to Morotai to work on the docks -Ships began assembling to move to the Philippines (00:26:55) Stationed in Luzon -Moved to Lingayen Gulf in Luzon after the initial invasion of Luzon -By now it was early 1945 -Unit arrived on February 10, 1945 -Safe to go ashore when they arrived -Relieved the 43rd Infantry Division �-Japanese had been holding a position at an intersection for quite a while -Saw a bit of action pushing the Japanese out -He was promoted to the rank of staff sergeant and was leading a squad of twelve men -Remembers a patrol near the summer capitol of Baguio and found money on the road -Silver pesos that had been buried and an artillery shell hit the location -Reported it to the company commander -Went back out with a platoon to guard it -Marines went out to collect the money -He never got any credit for finding, or reporting, the money -Met some Filipino civilians -Saw a lot of Filipinos on the roads between the American line and the Japanese line -The Japanese had viciously oppressed the Filipinos -Tried to give them a hand whenever they could -Extra food or water -Language barrier caused some problems, but could tell they were appreciative -Had some Filipino soldiers attached to his unit -Took some Japanese prisoners -A lot of Japanese soldiers refused to surrender -Some feigned surrender and approached with a live grenade -Many would rather die for the Emperor than surrender in shame -Found some Japanese soldiers in a house that surrendered willingly -Sent them up to company headquarters -They all looked pretty sickly -Lived in tents, or in foxholes -It got cold in the mountains -Always caked in sweat and mud -Swam in streams to try and get clean -Only new clothes that they carried was an extra pair of socks -No toothbrush, or toothpaste -Would be in the field for a few days to a month at a time -Lived off of C Rations -In the rear you could get mail and write home -Chance to reassure loved ones that you were okay -Also a chance to take a cold shower (00:37:34) Hill 1802 & Mount Bilbil -Took one hill called Hill 1802 -A Company snuck around the Japanese from behind and took the hill -Stayed on Hill 1802 for a week -Started with 40 men in his platoon, and only nine when they left the hill -Probably the worst experience during the war -Had no artillery support except for the small mortars that they had brought -This was on Mount Bilbil -Survived on air-dropped supplies �-Had to resist multiple Japanese counter attacks -Ordered to hold the hill at all costs -Company commander eventually decided that they needed to get off the hill -Retook Mount Bilbil with artillery support three or four weeks later -Got his Bronze Star on Mount Bilbil -After an artillery barrage he charged a Japanese position and forced them to surrender -Took Mount Bilbil before moving on to the city of Baguio (00:42:49) Near Death Situations -Nearly got killed when a mortar exploded above him -Protected by a bandolier hanging in a tree -Multiple times when he was under machine gun fire (00:43:35) End of the War -Stationed on Luzon until the war ended, formally, in September 1945 -Receiving amphibious training for the planned invasion of Japan -Heard the news that the atomic bombs had been dropped -Didn't know what the bomb was, but it sounded like an incredibly destructive weapon -Gave them hope that the war would end -When they heard that the Japanese surrendered tears were shed -A lot of men offered up prayers of thanks -Knew that Japan would have fought to the last man in an invasion (00:46:25) Occupation Duty in Japan -Sent up to Japan for occupation duty -Landed at Nagoya on Honshu on September 25, 1945 -Had to be escorted into the harbor by the harbor master because the water was mined -Took a long time to maneuver into the harbor -Boarded landing craft and went ashore -Faced no resistance or hostilities -Saw a billboard that said, "Kilroy was Here" -Took a train to Kobe -Area had been flattened -Took over an abandoned Catholic monastery -Learned that it was a Chinese settlement -Overlooked Kobe -All you could see was rubble, and people living in the rubble -Moved to an old Japanese barracks in Himeji -Saw Japanese civilians -Showed extreme deference toward, and fear of, American soldiers on his first pass -Second time was much different -Civilians learned that U.S. troops were friendly -Biked through some villages -Met a Japanese girl fluent in English �-She invited him to meet her brother -Brother wanted to get into the black market -Bert declined because he didn't want to get in trouble -Black market was active -Men would use cigarettes to buy prostitutes -His duty in Japan was to simply maintain an American presence (00:54:06) Coming Home & End of Service -Left Japan in November 1945 on a troopship -Arrived in Portland, Oregon -Took a train to Fort Sheridan, Illinois and got discharged in December 1945 -Parents, sisters, and girlfriend picked him up in Chicago -Visited his brother at Great Lakes Naval Station which is also in Illinois (00:55:37) Life after the War -Enrolled at Calvin College in Grand Rapids -Shortly after that he contracted malaria -Atabrine was out of his system and the disease became active -Had chills, fever, and nausea -Eventually had to drop out of college after a year and a half due to the illness -Advised by his doctor to get an outdoor job to regain red blood cells -Got a job at a lumber company -Worked for Consumers Energy then went to work in auto sales for the rest of his life (00:59:09) Reflections on Service -Had a war to fight, and a battle to win -War is hell, especially for those on the front lines -Wouldn't wish that on anyone � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BoersmaB1777V Title A name given to the resource Boersma, Bert A (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-06-16 Description An account of the resource Bert Boersma was born in Moline, Michigan in 1925. He graduated from high school in 1942 and was drafted in early 1943. He reported at Fort Custer, Michigan on February 26, 1943 for processing, and was then sent to Camp Roberts, California for basic training. His training lasted ninety days, and after that he went to join the 130th Infantry Regiment of the 33rd Infantry Division. He was stationed with that unit in Hawaii for nine months receiving jungle training before moving on to New Guinea in May 1944 where he stayed for six months conducting patrols and handling cargo from ships. He moved on to the island of Morotai in December 1944 where he saw his first action routing the remaining Japanese troops. He moved on to the island of Luzon in February 1945 and saw major action there at Hill 1802 and Mount Bilbil where he received a Bronze Star. After the war ended he was part of the occupation force in Japan in Nagoya and Himeji. He stayed in Japan until November 1945 and was sent home and got discharged at Fort Sheridan, Illinois in December 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boersma, Bert A. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jones, Adam (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1197e50b9fca413e8b4643babdca5ec7.m4v 48e26c248527409bb3e104390359e265 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bef7875881a7bf8a9e60922e7c507d58.pdf 6dc8b57c42840f1da6e132563470eb91 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee name: Clyde Boerman Length of Interview: (00:54:46) (0:08:50)Pre-Enlistment     Before the war, he worked at General Motors. He quit his job and enlisted in the Navy. He was 26 when he enlisted. He enlisted in 1943. (0:00:51) Active Duty   Duty Locations o Assigned to a Naval Base in Washington. Worked on a Destroyer that was responsible for torpedoes. o Moved from Washington to Rhode Island where he trained. o He was then sent to New York to be deployed to England. They ran into some German submarines off of the coast of New York, and so they diverted to Scotland and then eventually to England. o (0:02:40) He was part of the attack on D-Day.  Recalls an episode off of the coast of France where his boat had to rescue another destroyer off of the coast of France. o He spent most of his time patrolling the waters off of the coast of France. o (0:08:15) After his time off of the coast of France, he was sent to the Pacific via Boston, MA. o (0:10:25) His first stop in the Pacific was New Guinea. He was there for 2 days then headed to the Philippines. o (0:12:35) From the Philippines he went to the Dutch East Indies where they. Experiences o (0:13:20) His main job was to take care of the torpedoes, a position called Torpedo Man. o Came into contact on one occasion with a German sub. o Recalls being very close to the shore on D-Day. o Was in the Navy for 3 years and 3 months. o (0:25:10) Didn’t come into much contact with the Japanese while he was in the Pacific. o During leave, they would go to the different cities around the ports they stopped at. o (0:29:20) Attained the rank of Third Class Torpedo Man. o Recalls while crossing the Atlantic that they once ran into forty foot waves. �o The most their boat was out was for a week at time, but usually they were in very close to shore. o They had a Filipino on their boat while they were in the Pacific that acted as a translator for their boat. (0:20:41) After the Service  After the war, he came home to Grand Rapids, MI and started to look for a job.  Had a couple different jobs after the War. He spent 50 years at one manufacturing job. He also worked on the Board of Education. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BoermanC Title A name given to the resource Boerman, Clyde Allan (Interview outline and video), 2005 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-05-09 Description An account of the resource Clyde Boerman served in the Navy in World War II. He was part of a Torpedo Boat that served in both the Atlantic and Pacific theatres. He worked manning the torpedoes on the boat. He participated in D-Day as part of the Naval team that assisted with the landings and he also served in the Philippines and the Dutch East Indies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boerman, Clyde Allan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ezinga, Ross (Interviewer) Luyk, Nolan (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6450befc817119e60e22177698383695.m4v 2689e54ea0a5b265a795f3dde6b4ca5b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ebff4a0c876f19c2ccc4516a1f10fb9b.pdf e8e5e7cc907364fb32974799193be516 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Interviewee’s Name: Lloyd Blough Name of War: World War II Length of Interview: (00:36:53) (00:05) Background Information     Lloyd was born on August 25, 1915 in Michigan He had 1 sister and 4 brothers and went to school through 8th grade Lloyd was drafted into the Army when he was 26 years old in 1941 He was already married and in the service by the time Pearl Harbor was attacked (2:00) Airplane Mechanic  Lloyd went through basic training at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan  He was transferred to Virginia 2 weeks after Pearl Harbor was attacked where he went through advanced training to become an airplane mechanic, working on P-39s  The men would work on about 24 different planes a day and then they would all be flown out at once (6:30) Africa  Lloyd was sent to Africa in August on 1942  While in Africa there was always sand getting into the plane engines, which they would have to constantly clean out and maintain  Lloyd invented a piece to cover the engine that would prevent sand from getting in the air intake  They were working with Spitfires and P-51 Mustangs  The Spitfires were British planes and hard to work on with American tools  Lloyd traveled to Algeria, Tunisia, France, Italy, and Ireland (13:55) Leaving Europe  Once Italy surrendered the Americans were taking many Italian POWs  They preferred to go with the Americans because the Germans would have killed them  Many of them were starving and they really liked the food the American men had  Lloyd spent 2 years overseas before he was sent out back to the US on a 2 week boat trip  He served in New Mexico later and spent a total of 4 years in the service (24:30) Average Days  Lloyd made many friends while in the Army and worked next to a few good friends the entire time he was in the service �  He worked with 24 different mechanics, each of whom was assigned to one particular plane and also had an assistant While overseas Lloyd sent many letters to his wife and family and the letters were always censored � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BloughL Title A name given to the resource Blough, Lloyd H. (Interview outline and outline), 2005 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-03-31 Description An account of the resource Lloyd Blough was born in Michigan on August 25, 1915 and drafted into the Army in 1941 when he was 26 years old. He went through training at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan and was transferred to Virginia two weeks after Pearl Harbor was attacked. In Virginia, Lloyd went through advanced training to become an airplane mechanic, working with P-39s. Once he was finished training, Lloyd was sent to Africa where he worked on different planes in Algeria and Tunisia. He spent a total of two years overseas and also worked in France, Italy, and Ireland before he was sent back to the United States to finish the other two years of his service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blough, Lloyd H. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Steffen, Derek (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/050ef144eac204ade90444f94b477834.mp4 bd9258571de65f262790fc8eba292e8e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09e56c1227b0d52ae60267f5b21211c8.pdf 8b1faa0926b5470038e6542a42c693ad PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Duane Beukema World War II-Post War 59 minutes 16 seconds (00:00:14) Early Life -Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1928 -Lived there his entire life -Father worked for General Motors in the stamping division at the Wyoming, Michigan factory -Worked for them for thirty five years -He was one of the first to be hired when the factory was built in the 1930s -Prior to that he was on welfare -Wound up with one of the better jobs at the factory -Setting up and running a press -He had a sister that was eighteen years younger than him -Graduated from Ottawa Hills High School in 1946 (00:01:51) World War II -Remembers the attack on Pearl Harbor vividly -Sitting in the living room reading the newspaper when the report came over the radio -Had no idea what Pearl Harbor was, or where it was, prior to the attack -Parents had read about the fighting in Europe and Asia prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor -There was very little radio coverage of the war though -He was aware of the fighting happening in Europe and Asia -Remembers that there was a lot of anger after the attack and there weren't many answers -Rationing went into effect almost immediately -Remembers that things like sugar and gasoline had to be bought with ration stamps -Despite the rationing, he doesn't remember suffering -Started seeing cars with wooden bumpers instead of chrome bumpers -Tires were rationed -His father was issued a B Card for gas which was better than an A Card -Meant that he could get a few more gallons each week -This was because he had a job that was essential to the war effort -When he got into high school he started seeing a lot of older male students joining the military -Remembers hearing about some older students being killed in the war in his junior year (00:04:37) Enlisting in the Army -His best friend since the age of twelve was drafted after graduating from high school -Decided that they would both just enlist together -If you enlisted there was a chance you would get a better deal from the �Army -Plus, they were as close as brothers and didn't want to be separated like that -Went to a recruiting center in Grand Rapids and took an aptitude test together -Asked where they would want to go -They both decided that they would want occupation duty in Japan (00:06:00) Basic Training & Field Artillery Training -Left Grand Rapids in September 1946 and got sent to Fort Custer, Michigan -Spent the night there -Boarded a train the next day and they were sent to Fort Sheridan, Illinois -Spent a few nights there -Sent by train to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training and field artillery training -Trained with the 105mm howitzer -Learning how to fire and maintain the gun -Gunner had to be able to do mental math -He and his friends were the only high school graduates in a group of 200 -As a result, he was selected to be a gunner -The men that they trained with were mostly enlistees -First things he learned was how to march and Army etiquette -Who to salute, who not to salute, ranks, etc. -There was a lot of physical training -Mostly marching and jogging -After four weeks they began to train on the howitzers -There was a high emphasis on discipline -Men that disobeyed were given extra chores -Consisted of work in the mess hall (peeling potatoes and washing dishes) -First thing you learn in basic training is not to give them a reason to remember your name -If they remember your name, you're more likely to get picked for extra duty -Received ten weeks of training -Did not have a lot of trouble adjusting to the Army -Approached a lot of the situations with a sense of humor -He was in good shape when he went into training, but was in great shape by the end of training -His job as the gunner was calculating elevation and doing some basic trigonometry -Didn't find it too difficult -Never got to fire the howitzer because he got sick in the fifth week with pneumonia -Kept in the hospital for three weeks -Got moved to a different training class, but managed to catch up quickly -Still graduated with his best friend -Given a leave home at the end of training -Training was complete in November 1946 -Did not get to spend Christmas 1946 with his family though (00:13:54) Deployment to Japan -Ordered to report to California in December -Rode the train out to California with his best friend �-Took three days to go from Michigan to California -Had to sleep sitting up -Spent a lot of time in the club car playing cards -Got off the train and got marched to a big field -Kept there for three days until they were assigned to a barracks -Had no tents to sleep in -He and his friend got a job making ham and cheese sandwiches -Meant being inside and getting to sleep inside -Once in the barracks he worked in the mess hall -Had a permanent pass to leave the barracks when he wasn't on duty -Spent almost every day in San Francisco -Got to be in San Francisco for New Year's Eve -Found the soldier in charge of shipping orders and paid him $10 to be put on the list for Japan -Wanted to get deployed in the hopes that he would get to catch up with his friend -Friend had been deployed ahead of him -Shipped out on a troop transport -Held 5,000 men -Took eighteen days to get to Japan -Eight days into their voyage they got hit by waves from a tsunami that hit Japan -Waves were over seventy five feet tall and were breaking over the bridge -Two days of rough seas -He only got seasick for one day -Learned the best thing to do to combat it was to eat (00:18:45) Arrival in Japan -Arrived at Yokohama -Ship had trouble docking because the harbor was full of sunken ships -At that time Yokohama and Tokyo were flat from the American bombing campaign -Wooden buildings that had been razed from the firebombing campaign -He was sent to a distribution center to receive his orders -Spent two weeks in Yokohama because his orders had been lost -Given some duties while in Yokohama, but passed a lot of time playing cards and reading -Not allowed to go into Yokohama -A few men snuck off the base to go to a place nicknamed "Gonorrhea Gulch" -The cost of a prostitute's services was a pack of gum (00:20:58) Stationed in Sasebo Pt. 1 -His records were found and he was sent by train to Sasebo, Kyushu -Quartered in an old Japanese Army barracks -Assigned to H Company of the 34th Infantry Regiment of the 24th Infantry Division -Handling .30 caliber machine guns, 80mm mortars, and anti-tank guns -The unit wasn't expecting new men so there was no food, and no heat in the barracks -After complaints they finally got food, hot water, and heat -Remembers being on guard duty and being approached by an old man �-He was dressed in an Army overcoat with no insignias -Asked Duane how things were and Duane answered bluntly -Said that there was no food, no heat, and nothing to do -Next day they had food, heat, cards, ping-pong tables, and a piano -Turned out that the old man was actually the colonel of the unit -Colonel would do this routinely to keep in touch with the troops -Started to receive basic infantry training -Days started at 5:30 AM -Calisthenics, showers, and breakfast then infantry training -Learned how to field strip a rifle -Learned how to fire and maintain .50 caliber machine guns -Training lasted three months -After graduating they received an extra week of infantry training -Sent back to Sasebo -At the time, communist instigators were sneaking into Japan from Korea -Trying to get the Japanese people to support a communist government -Their job, as the Americans, was to break up riots and arrest the instigators (00:26:02) Interaction with Japanese Civilians Pt. 1 -Japanese civilians in the area had never seen American infantrymen -Impressed with the steel helmets and modern rifles fixed with bayonets -Felt no animosity from the Japanese people -Not even from Japanese men that had served in their army -Treated with tremendous respect and they wanted to know all about them -Almost immediately had contact with civilians -Civilians would come up to him and talk with him while he was on guard duty -Felt tremendous sadness for the Japanese people -Realized that they had lost their homes, loved ones, and their jobs -People were being forced to sell precious family heirlooms just to survive -Mostly encountered men, but some young women, and some children -Met a Japanese man that had visited Grand Rapids -He had attended the University of Wisconsin before the war -Had spent the war in jail for protesting the attack on Pearl Harbor -Had felt that it was strategically suicidal (00:29:05) Stationed in Sasebo Pt. 2 -His regular duty in Sasebo was guard duty -Two hours on, six hours off -Six hours on, sixteen hours off -One day on, two days off (00:29:37) Travelling in Japan & Interaction with Japanese Civilians Pt. 2 -When he wasn't on duty he was allowed to travel just about anywhere -Favorite place to visit was Kyoto -Old city filled with religious buildings -Had been spared from the bombings -Visited Osaka -Very modern city that had largely been spared from being bombed �-Some buildings, and parts of cities, had been explicitly forbidden from being bombed -All of Kyoto had been off limits due to its religious and cultural significance -Always travelled with two friends -They were of the same mind as him in terms of values -Ex. They would all go to religious services together -Required to wear uniforms wherever they went -Surprised by how many civilians could speak fluent, or near fluent, English -The U.S. occupying force was trying to Romanize Japanese names of places -Basically, translating the characters into the Latin alphabet, but not rename the places -Japanese people always wanted to help, even if they couldn't speak English (00:34:40) Black Market & Theft -One of his duties as a guard was to protect military equipment and food stockpiles from thieves -First night that he was there a soldier caught three Japanese men in a warehouse -Chased them back to a boat and killed those three plus two accomplices -One night, when he was in a warehouse by himself, he could hear thieves in the building -Wasn't able to find them though -Knew that there was a massive black market -Knew the soldier that was basically running the whole black market in Kobe -You could buy a carton of cigarettes for 75¢ from the PX and sell it for 1400 yen ($28) -His mother would send him a carton of cigarettes in the mail and he would sell those -Then use that money to buy more cigarettes from the PX and sell those -Made $45 a month from the Army and sent $35 of it home to be saved -Used the rest, plus the cigarette money to travel (00:37:48) Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Atomic Bombs, & the Invasion -Saw Nagasaki and Hiroshima -Nagasaki had been flattened from the bomb and there was a huge wooden arrow at ground zero -Army estimated that the land would be sterile for twenty years -When he visited in 1947, small plants were already starting to grow again -Japanese civilians he encountered actually supported the use of the atomic bombs -Realized that, had the U.S. invaded, millions would have died as opposed to thousands -Hiroshima was a little worse than Nagasaki because the blast hadn't been contained -Read a book while he was there titled Rising Sun that detailed Japan's military capabilities -That info, plus seeing the natural fortifications proved how bloody things could've been -Also saw a destroyer and a cruiser hidden in a lagoon while he was travelling -Showed that Japan had truly been ready to fight to the last citizen (00:42:28) Communist Agitators -Had to deal with rioters -Marched in formation against the rioters armed with rifles, grenades, and tear gas �-The rioters would then disperse when faced with a military force -Met a young man that had to drop out of college because he couldn't pay for it -Met him later on and learned that the communist party was paying for his college -This was in exchange for his membership in the communist party -The communists were especially active in the bigger cities -There were communists in Korea that could easily cross the 38th Parallel -Because Korea had been a Japanese colony, the Koreans could easily get to Japan (00:44:18) Reflections on Japan -Thought that Japan was a beautiful country -Felt tremendous sympathy for the Japanese people -Japanese people that he met were tremendously friendly and even crime was a rarity -Learned that Japan had simply been desperate for land and resources -Liked being there and was anxious to go back -Has since visited Japan and has seen how much has changed since the 1940s -Japanese men that had been in their army wouldn't readily talk about their experiences (00:46:30) End of Service & Coming Home -He and his friend had signed up for eighteen months -After fourteen months they were offered the chance to go home early and keep their rank -The caveat was that they would have to be in the Active Reserves -Decided to turn it down and just stay in for the extra four months -Good decision because of the 24th Infantry Division's involvement in Korea -One of the first units into the war, and it was basically wiped out -Sent back to the United States in December 1947 -Received orders to take a train to Yokohama and board a ship there -Sailed from Yokohama to Seattle, Washington -Captain wanted to be home for Christmas 1947 -Managed to cross the Pacific Ocean in only eight days -Once in Seattle, he was discharged after two days along with his best friend -They had reconnected on the return voyage -Learned that his friend had been promoted to the rank of corporal -Took a train back to Grand Rapids and arrived on Christmas Eve 1947 at 11 PM -Friend's younger brother met them at the train station -He was the only one that knew they were home -He got to his parents' house at 11:45 PM on Christmas Eve -Remembers that it was a great time to come home (00:52:04) Life after the Army -Got a job with his best friend -Neither of them wanted to start college in the middle of the school year -Went to Calvin College in Grand Rapids in September 1948 -Started off studying pre-med, but then switched to studying engineering -Got married after two and a half years of college -Began taking courses through WMU, MSU, and the University of Michigan -Never did get a degree in engineering, but got a job in engineering �-Started off working as a draftsman -Worked for Steelcase for twenty five years -Eventually moved up to being a product engineer -Met a Japanese high school student through the Talons Out Honor Flight in May 2015 -This young man, named Yuki, knew almost nothing about WWII -Only knew that the two countries had fought, and Japan had lost -He wrote to Duane and asked him to tell him more about the war -Duane agreed and taught him what he knew about the war -Told him that he enjoyed being in Japan and didn't regret his service -Has since maintained contact with Yuki (00:56:40) Reflections on Service -Feels that his time in the Army was worthwhile -Feels that it was an enlightening experience, and showed him more about the world -Met a soldier that lived a wild life that envied Duane's quiet, simpler life -Hopes that maybe he inspired the man to calm down a little bit � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BeukemaD1853V Title A name given to the resource Beukema, Duane "Duke" (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-07-08 Description An account of the resource Duane Beukema was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1928. After graduating from high school in 1946, he and his best friend enlisted in the Army. They both received basic and field artillery training at Fort Knox, Kentucky and completed that training in November 1946. They were both scheduled for deployment to Japan, but got separated in California. Duane wound up being sent to Japan in January 1947 and assigned to H Company in the 34th Infantry Regiment of the 24th Infantry Division in Sasebo, Japan. He received infantry training in Japan, regularly pulled guard duty, spent a considerable amount of time traveling (getting to see Hiroshima and Nagasaki only two years after the atomic bombs were dropped), and also getting to meet many Japanese civilians. In December 1947 he received orders to go home, and on the return voyage reconnected with his best friend. They were both discharged in Seattle and back in Grand Rapids by Christmas Eve 1947. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Beukema, Duane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f2f7b73f721eae1f96d954f01ec48f0.m4v 6e33bb8cf61ddabf427b9359a9c9e660 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/521d894a22b253c624837d7d6fbdb1cb.pdf beb3ea29e53c702e454084e025fdf91b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee name: Robert Berles Length of Interview: (00:57:15) Robert Berles (57:15) (00:15) Background Information  Robert was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan  His father was a sales manager in Grand Rapids and built their home in 1931  He paid $10,000.00 to have the house built and it last sold for $160,000.00  Robert went to Aquinas College and was drafted during his sophomore year in 1943  He was not happy about being drafted and did not like the idea of his future being held in someone else’s hands  Robert was interested in a Navy program and traveled to Detroit with a friend to get more information  The program would allow him to finish his sophomore year and continue with school after his time in the service (7:15) Training  Robert began taking training classes at Western Michigan University on July 1, 1943  They went through one year of physical training and classes  Robert though it was similar to boot camp, but without the negative drill sergeants  After one year of training Robert was reassigned and began taking supply classes for five months  He was commissioned in September and assigned to the AP 168 War Hawk Troop Ship  They left from San Francisco and traveled to the Admiralty Islands (11:30) Island Base  The base was very rugged and Robert would have preferred to remain on the ship  He was only 20, about 8 years younger than all the other officers he was working with  Robert witnessed many kamikaze attacks and had been “taught to hate the Japanese”  They invaded Luzon on January 9, 1945  The ship was hit by a kamikaze later than day and 61 men died (17:20) Leaving the Pacific  It took the ship 26 days to get back to Manus Island near New Guinea  Robert worked with a priest to provide services for the dead � Many were still worried about kamikaze attacks (23:05) Dry Dock in Manus  Robert was ordered to clean up the ship and help fix the damage from the attack  No one wanted to help him clean the area where the bodies were stored at the bottom of the ship  They had been stored there for a month and the smell was terrible  The arms fell right off of the first body that Robert tried to move  He had to cut off all their thumbs to use later for identification  The bodies were buried at Manus Island, where they had a short service  Only 19 of the 61 bodies had been identified (32:00) Back to the US  The ship headed back to the US for more repairs  Robert later helped secure Okinawa, where he was thankful that the kamikazes were no longer attacking  He also worked in Guam once the war had ended, where they helped transport soldiers back to the US  They were also bringing back businessmen back to China and working with the Chinese embassy in the US  Robert played a lot of poker in China and used the money he won to buy jewelry for his mother (36:40) Japan  Robert visited Nagoya, Japan, which was completely devastated  He went to a naval base near Tokyo and had just gotten his appendix removed, so he was not able to do much physical activity  Robert felt lucky with his experience in the service, but that there is generally much waste with regard to money and human life  He felt that he received more from the Navy than he had ever given to the service (38:25) Manus Island  Robert had been playing cards on the ship with a guy from Grand Rapids when a ammunition ship blew up right next to them  There were 300 men on the ship and all of them died, which Robert found to be another example of waste (40:55) The End of the War  Robert continued to work on the ship for one year after the war had ended  He was working on the ship altogether for 22 months  They had been taking new soldiers out to the Pacific and bringing other home  They later decommissioned the ship in Seattle  Robert had wanted to go to law school, but ended up getting his Master’s Degree in Social Work �(48:00) Social Work  Robert began working with children at Saint Johns in California  He also had been training probation officers during the riots of 1952  Robert spent one year as a parole officer and worked as a therapist in a psychiatric clinic  He also started and ran a halfway house (52:40) Appendicitis  Robert remembered working on the ship and feeling very ill  They had been in a typhoon during his surgery and the deck was completely flooded  A crash knocked all the tools on the floor and they had to be washed and sanitized all over again during his surgery � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BerlesR Title A name given to the resource Berles, Robert A. (Interview outline and video), 2007 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-28 Description An account of the resource Robert Berles was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan and was drafted in 1943 during his sophomore year at Aquinas College. Robert volunteered for a Navy program after receiving his draft notice that would allow him to finish his sophomore year before his time in the service, and also allow him to finish up college afterwards. Robert began officer training at Western Michigan University, where he attended classes all day long and physically trained. He served on a troop transport ship in the Pacific, and his ship was hit by a kamikaze off Luzon, the aftermath of which he describes in detail. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Berles, Robert A. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a6a29d0c9ea87c1258c2f666beadf0a.m4v 271947b8fbfbc14b4647c3004c4eb029 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e18898f5a7ba2373a548f84bbfa3f869.pdf 3cfe443e19eca43631bb4a6638941ce1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Mel Bajema Vietnam War Interview length: 1 hour 5 minutes 8 seconds; Tape Length: 1 hour 35 minutes 15 seconds (00:00:31) Early Life -Born in High Wycombe, England on March 12, 1946 -His father was stationed in England with the U.S. military and his mother was a war bride -When he was a toddler his parents moved to the United States -His father had been reassigned to Chanute, Illinois -His mother and he (Mel) went and lived with his father's parents in Iowa -His grandfather didn't approve of the marriage -He was a "fire and brimstone" preacher that didn't treat his mother well -His mother told his father that if they couldn't come to Illinois she would leave -He (Mel) and his mother joined his father at Chanute Air Field, Illinois -His father was in the Army Air Corps (which became the Air Force) -Served with the Air Force for eight years -After his father completed his service the family moved to Michigan -His father wanted to become a preacher, so he went to Calvin College, Grand Rapids -Eventually had to leave due to financial reasons -His father became a grocery store manager -He (Mel) graduated from high school in June 1964 -Throughout high school he had worked at the grocery store for his father -He also worked there briefly after he graduated from high school (00:03:31) Enlisting in the Air Force -He wanted to form a sense of identity and felt the military was the best option for that -The branch that he decided on was the Air Force -Influenced because of his father's service and because he felt the Air Force was the elite -Before reporting for basic training he received aptitude testing -Attempt by the Air Force to decide which position would be best for the recruits -The first stop was at Fort Custer, Michigan for processing and sorting -At this time it was June 1964 (00:04:53) Basic Training -He was sent to Lackland Air Force Base, Texas for his basic training -There were parts of basic training that were largely unpleasant -The TIs (technical instructors) were uncaring and at times unnecessarily demanding -He heard a rumor that one recruit was forced to run until he died of exhaustion -There was a huge focus on psychologically breaking down recruits -This was accomplished by forcing recruits to obsessively clean their quarters -There was one time the TIs made a mess of the barracks -The recruits were forced to clean the barracks in a limited amount of time -He was in good physical shape upon entering the Air Force -But still had to work up to a point that was acceptable for the Air Force �-The primary, overall focus during basic training was discipline and following orders -He spent six weeks training at Lackland -For him it was pretty easy to adjust to military living -Other men weren't able to adjust and were reassigned, or sent home (00:09:31) Technical School -He spent eight weeks in technical school -He was sent to a technical school in Amarillo, Texas -His specialization in the Air Force was to work in supply -The technical school training consisted mostly of classroom work -Instructors were better than in basic training, but still demanding -He finished technical school in early 1965 -He had been allowed to go home for Christmas 1964 though (00:10:49) Assignment to Selma, Alabama -He was stationed at Craig Air Force Base near Selma, Alabama -His position was to work with supplies out of a Quonset hut -He was part of Air Training Command -This meant he was in a support role for the officers training to be pilots -His job involved tracking where parts and supplies were on the base -He stayed at Craig until September 1967 -There was still animosity towards Northerners at the time -For the sake of peace he tried to adjust to, and insert himself into, the community -He heard about the Civil Rights Movement, but wasn't tremendously aware of the struggle -He saw how African Americans were treated by Southerners -He had a part time job pumping gas in Selma and saw black customers turned away -This was completely foreign to him coming from the North and not being racist -At Craig when the Edmund Pettus Bridge Incident happened -The National Guard was called in -They had to allow the National Guardsmen to stay on their base -While this was going on they were not allowed to leave the base -Aside from the Civil Rights struggle the assignment to Selma was routine and boring -Get up, eat breakfast, go to work, go to barracks, relax and repeat every day -He had wanted to take college courses, but only got around to taking one (00:17:20) Volunteering for Vietnam -After getting sick of being in Selma he expressed his frustration with his assignment -He wanted to travel with the hope of going to Europe -If he reenlisted he would get to go to Europe, which didn't appeal to him -He had only one year left, so he was offered a deployment to Southeast Asia -He took that offer -Two weeks later he received a letter telling him that he was being sent to Vietnam (00:18:20) Deployment to Vietnam -He visited home briefly before leaving for Vietnam -Travelled by air to San Francisco, then took a bus down to Los Angeles -In Los Angeles he boarded a chartered commercial plane bound for Vietnam -Stopped for gas along the way, but never long enough to get off the plane -They eventually landed in Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon, South Vietnam -First impression was being scared �-He had blonde hair which drew attention from the local girls -Prostitutes would solicit him too which shocked and intimidated him -They landed during the day -Nothing eventful was happening when they landed -He was placed in a barracks on base until he left for Da Nang (00:20:53) Stationed at Da Nang -He took a cargo plane up to Da Nang -It was a tense plane ride -The pilot didn't know how to handle the C-130, so the 2nd Lieutenant on board took over -When he arrived in Da Nang he was assigned to a quarters in "Tent City" -He met some men that he had known in Selma -The first three months were calm -It almost felt like being on a base in the United States -Over time they began to receive minor incoming fire at night -The Viet Cong's goal was to keep the U.S. troops from getting sleep and to demoralize them -It was nothing compared to what would happen in the Tet Offensive though -His daily routine was similar to the one that he had in Selma -Working in supply, but in a slightly different capacity -In a way it felt like a day job just with military etiquette -He worked in supply for six months -Didn't have to pull bunker duty, guard duty, or any duty like those (00:25:33) Enemy Presence and Relations with Civilians in Da Nang -He felt safe until he realized that they were totally surrounded by Viet Cong -Vietnamese civilians were employed on the base to do menial tasks -The Viet Cong began to kill civilians sympathetic towards the Americans -He was able to visit the city of Da Nang before it became too dangerous to leave base -No one was allowed to have their M-16 rifle on hand -Had them kept in a locked weapons locker -Seemed asinine to him because it left them completely vulnerable -Just before the Tet Offensive began the mortar attacks became more frequent -He would watch as American helicopters attacked Viet Cong mortar crews near Da Nang -For a long time it didn't even seem like there was a war being fought -It was something occurring near them, but not involving them (00:30:33) The Tet Offensive -Working in the supply hut when the Tet Offensive began -He heard explosions outside and took cover under his desk -The explosions were so close, and so powerful, that the concussion buckled the floor -After he left the hut he saw the extent of the damage and heard more about it too -Everything was orange (burning) -To him it looked like what the stereotypical idea of hell looked like -A squadron and a half of jets had been lost to the attack (27-36 jets roughly) -He wasn't aware of any Vietnamese ground troops having penetrated the perimeter -The rocket attack only happened once -He feels that the goal of the Vietnamese had been to disrupt U.S. air presence �(00:34:46) Volunteering for Air Traffic Coordinator -After six months of being a supply clerk a call for a volunteer for air traffic coordinator came -The job involved being on the flight line helping oversee the handling of cargo on aircraft -He decided it would be more interesting than being a clerk, so he volunteered -He was put on a day shift, a mid-shift, and a graveyard shift, then got three days off -He would unload and load dead soldiers and wounded soldiers -His job also involved signaling pilots and telling them where to park their aircraft -It was a more interesting job, but more dangerous as well -The flight line took small arms fire pretty consistently -One time a sniper took a shot at him and he felt the bullet go past his head -It was common for aircraft to take fire as they landed, or took off -They didn't suffer any mortar attacks on the flight line -At the time Da Nang's U S military population was 2/3 Marines and 1/3 Air Force -He worked exclusively with the Air Force, and never the Marines (00:39:11) Downtime in Da Nang -For the most part he would spend downtime sleeping and eating -He got a reel-reel recorder through a friend that took an R&R in Japan -Used it to record music on the radio at the USO Club -Martha Ray came in as part of the USO to perform for the troops -There was a base theatre that showed movies (00:40:38) Living Conditions, Morale, Race Relations, and Drugs -As the year went on he ran into more draftees -Sometime during the year he was moved from "Tent City" to an actual barracks -Felt that the tents were actually safer than a large structure that drew attention -He knew one soldier who would consistently leave base to fraternize with Vietnamese girls -This eventually led to him getting a dishonorable discharge -He always strove to do his job well because at the time he believed in the cause -Most soldiers that he worked with tried to do their jobs well -He wasn't aware of drug use until Marines started coming back from the field -Marines were using cocaine -Indoctrination and coke made the Marines act like they were invincible -He knew one Marine who had that attitude and was dead two weeks later -He would ship out seventeen dead soldiers each shift -Feels that compared to previous wars casualties were light -Working on the flight line made him painfully aware of the toll of the war -He never heard of Air Force service members using drugs -There were more whites than blacks, and few Hispanics -Everyone got along fairly well though -At Da Nang he didn't hear about the MLK assassination -News outlets provided by the military only allowed for a limited scope of information -Thus that event didn't come up in the "Stars & Stripes" -Communicated with his family through letters -When he was still in "Tent City" someone was able to get hold of a Christmas Tree -He received a Christmas care package in March 1968 -The brownies were moldy, but they all ate them anyway -They had a PX (general store) on base which largely negated the need for care packages �-On Fridays he would always try to treat himself to steak and eggs -If you wanted to get drunk you just had to go to the NCO Club and order a few drinks -The heat exacerbated the effects of the alcohol -There were no apparent alcoholics in Da Nang (00:50:14) Interactions with Officers -He didn't have any officer watching over him until he became a traffic coordinator -Even when he was on the flight line he wasn't closely supervised (00:51:10) Going Home -When he was ready to go back home an officer pulled him aside and gave him some advice -"Forget that you were here, don’t volunteer to talk about your experiences” -At the time the advice seemed strange, but as time went on he understood -He learned that the war had been futile -He wasn't aware of the anti-war protests going on in America -Heard something about 'Make love, not war' but that was it -He kept track of when he was going home by using a short time calendar -He didn't know exactly when he was going home, just one day it happened -There was no acclimation process or course on how to adjust to going home -From Da Nang he flew down to Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon -He heard men were dying from mortar attacks in Saigon -Fortunately for him, when he arrived Saigon was quiet -When he came home he wasn't harassed by protesters -He landed in Los Angeles, California then he returned to Grand Rapids, Michigan (00:56:12) Reassignment to Pensacola, Florida -He received new orders to go to Eglin Air Force Base in Pensacola, Florida -He went down to Florida with a bitter and resentful attitude -He technically had 110 days of his enlistment left -Felt that his year in Vietnam should have satisfied the rest of his enlistment -Because of his bitterness he would sleep in and be generally uncooperative -He got called into the sergeant's office and was yelled at, but not punished -He continued doing supply work, but didn't work as hard as he had at Selma, or Da Nang (00:57:39) Life after the War -After the Air Force he didn't have the direction that he thought that he would have -His mother suggested that he go to Post Office for a job -He took the test and was hired on to be a mailman -Wound up staying with the Post Office for his career and retired from it -His four years in the Air Force was added onto his thirty two years in the Post Office -He was a Federal employee for thirty six years -He feels that the Post Office was run very similarly to the Vietnam War -Inept managers making bad decisions -Leadership that had no foresight (in relation to the coming of email in the 1990s) (01:00:38) Reflections on Service -Shortly after he came home a Marine from his church was killed in Vietnam -His mother insisted that he wear his uniform to church -After that Marine was killed it became hard for him to face that family in his uniform -He wondered why he lived and the Marine died -When he returned home he talked openly about his experiences in Vietnam �-Mostly talked to the kids in the youth group at Coopersville Christian Reformed Church -Feels that because of his experiences and their interest he was more open to talk -Feels that a lot of men came home traumatized and there was nothing to help them readjust -Understood why a lot of men wound up committing suicide, or in mental hospitals -Feels that because of his experiences he was able to readjust faster and easier -Over the years ran into men that were reluctant to talk, and he understands why � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BajemaM1654V Title A name given to the resource Bajema, Melvin (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-06-26 Description An account of the resource Mel Bajema was born in England in 1946. His father was in the Army Air Corps (later the Air Force once it became its own branch) and his mother was an English "war-bride." His family soon moved to the US and settled in Grand Rapids, Michigan. After high school, Mel enlisted in the Air Force, and served between 1964 and 1968. He trained in supply, and served between 1965 and 1967 at Craig Air Force Base near Selma, Alabama, and then requested assignment to Southeast Asia. He went to South Vietnam and was based at Da Nang, where he eventually switched from supply to ground control work. While there, he witnessed the attack on the base during the Tet Offensive. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bajema, Melvin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/720fabab02def6ba84239d2d0f9c56df.m4v 1cf67b158e49fd9627685566df1932d3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/55221b7a430d9bfa081c7f7319c725ce.pdf aa6e85c3d9aad4d0a32a1a4777a1cbf2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Marc Aronson Vietnam War 2 hours 35 minutes 7 seconds (00:00:17) Early Life -Born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on September 8, 1949 -His father was an insurance agent and worked in a family insurance agency -Mother was a housewife -He attended public schools through the ninth grade -South hills of Pittsburgh at Bethel Park -He took grades nine through twelve at a military academy (00:01:16) Military Academy -For high school he attended a military academy in the Shenandoah Valley -He began attending in 1964 -His father sent him because he felt that Marc lacked discipline and respect for authority -Class sizes were about fifteen to eighteen students -He most likely had, and still has, ADD which made some aspects difficult -The school was in the South, so being from the North it took some adjusting -First time he was introduced to Dr. Pepper, grits, and Moon Pies -It was a segregated school -Even the menial laborers had to be white -Lived in dorms at the academy -The school’s curriculum and protocols were modeled after West Point Army Academy -This meant that he received a lot of military training -Reserve Officers’ Training Corps instructors -Military style classes -Carried and trained with the M1 Garand or Springfield 1903 rifles -In high school he knew how to maintain an M1 Garand rifle -Graduated in 1968 (00:06:16) Awareness of the Vietnam War -He paid virtually no attention to the Vietnam War when he was in high school -At the military academy they didn’t have access to a TV or radio -Expected to be focusing on studying during the weekdays -On the weekends they drilled or went to religious services -He grew up in a middle class neighborhood in Pittsburgh -No one paid much attention to world events (00:07:33) Enlisting in the Army -After graduating from the military academy he decided to enlist in the Army -He enlisted in the Pittsburgh Federal Building -Signed on for the one hundred twenty day delay plan -This meant that one hundred twenty days later he would report for training -Enlisted in September 1968 -When he signed up a group of girls came with him �-Crying because they thought that he was going to get killed in Vietnam -They wound up following him to the restricted physical exam area -He doesn’t recall anyone trying to get out of serving (00:10:02) Basic Training -For basic training he was sent to Fort Jackson, South Carolina -Arrived there at 3 AM -Had his head shaved upon arrival -Processing took only about twenty four hours -The base’s barracks were from World War Two -Still heated by coal -Early during training the drill sergeant asked two questions -What is a guidon and who has a driver’s license? -He knew what a guidon was and had a driver’s license -He was placed in charge of protecting the unit’s guidon from other units -A guidon is a type of military pennant that comes to a point on the end -He took a general aptitude test upon entering basic training -Started early every day -Used to it from having a paper route as a child and from the military academy -Given only about twenty minutes to get dressed, get cleaned and get in formation -Went on four or five mile runs every morning -He didn’t come from an intensely athletic background, but it wasn’t too hard -After running went to the mess hall for breakfast -Expected to cross monkey bars and do pull ups before entering -Upon entering the mess hall had to line up and eat whatever you were given -After breakfast went to a variety of different Army courses and activities -Weapons training, marching, classes on protocol, or general military information -His time at the military academy prepared him well for basic training -He was already used to being disciplined and given orders -He trained with men from all over the country and from different backgrounds -Integrated unit -He came from a Jewish background, so he didn’t believe in prejudice anyway -Served with African-Americans, New Yorkers, Southerners -Basic training lasted eight weeks (00:20:55) Artillery Training Pt. 1 -After completing basic training he signed up for artillery training -His father had been an antiaircraft artillery soldier in World War Two -He felt that being in artillery would put him near the action, but not in the action -He was given a short leave home after basic training -After leave he reported to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for artillery training -Nine month course -December 1968 is when he arrived there -He did not enjoy Fort Sill -It was an older base with older buildings -It was either very hot, or very cold -It was a larger base -There was a small town nearby that soldiers would often go to on leave �-Full of bars, pawn shops, strip clubs and liquor stores (00:23:35) Noncommissioned Officer School -While at Fort Sill the recruits were told that the Army needed more sergeants -As a result of that a Noncommissioned Officer School was created there -He was told that if he signed up for NCO School there would be certain perks -Namely having a higher rank and getting paid more because of that -It was an eight week course -He chose to become a sergeant because it seemed like a better deal than being a private (00:25:02) Artillery Training Pt. 2 -At Fort Sill they received classroom training and field training on artillery -They primarily trained on the 105mm split-tail howitzer -For field training they would go out into the middle of nowhere near the base -Learned how to properly move the gun and prepare it for firing -Because of his NCO training he was training to be a crew chief -This meant he was responsible for calculating coordinates -Not that easy for him because he wasn’t very good at math -They had access to other artillery pieces, but pretty much stuck with the 105mm howitzer (00:26:40) Army Driver’s Training -When he was still in basic training he was able to take Army driver’s training -Consisted of learning how to drive the 2.5 ton trucks that the Army used -All he had to do to pass was successfully drive a quarter mile in a truck -One time at basic training he was assigned to drive the truck to the rifle range -He started to take a turn too hard and a sergeant intervened -This led to the truck flipping over -No one was seriously injured, but a few soldiers received broken bones -He was advised to basically stay out of sight for about two weeks -The injured soldiers were not going to be happy to see him -He didn’t get in trouble for the accident -A few colonels asked him what happened, and he explained -They basically just wanted to get him out of Fort Jackson and to Fort Sill (00:32:57) Incident in NCO School -Remembers one time when another soldier training to be a sergeant asked Marc for some aspirin -Marc had aspirin and gave the other soldier his bottle of aspirin -Little did Marc know that the soldier was intending on taking the whole bottle -Last that Marc saw of the soldier he was being taken to the hospital on a stretcher -It was a way of getting out of going to Vietnam (00:34:24) Deployment to Vietnam -At the end of training at Fort Sill they were all given a “dream sheet” -A checklist of U.S. Army bases in America and around the world that you could “pick” -Most soldiers were requesting Hawaii, or Germany -Marc knew that they were going to Vietnam no matter what, so he picked Vietnam -Shortly after the “dream sheet” they all received orders for Vietnam -He was allowed to go home for a short leave -He flew out of San Francisco bound for Vietnam -Stopped in Hawaii to refuel and was allowed off the plane for a couple hours �(00:36:15) Arriving in Vietnam -He arrived at Tan Son Nhut Air Base -He, and the other replacements, was afraid of getting attacked on the runway -After leaving the plane they were placed on buses and taken to their temporary quarters -The buses had wire cages over the windows to protect from grenades -He arrived in September 1969 -When he arrived he didn’t have any unit assignment -His first task at Tan Son Nhut was to go out and clean up the old, rusted barbed wire -While he was cleaning a lieutenant approached him and told him to stop -His job was to watch over the privates doing the work, not to do the work -He remembers seeing black smoke on the horizon and asking what it was -Learned that it was human waste being burned -During the early days there he remembers seeing a Vietnamese man defecating on the road -Perfectly normal to the other Vietnamese -He spent a week at Tan Son Nhut before receiving orders (00:43:20) Assignment to the 1st Infantry Division -He was finally given a unit assignment to the 1st Infantry Division (“The Big Red One”) -They were operating in a place called Di An -While he was with the 1st they would move around to different firebases -He had a spiral notebook and would keep a record of when and where they went -He was assigned to an artillery battery and to act as a crew chief -He was just considered the new guy -Nothing fantastic was done about his entry into the unit -Firing was sporadic when he joined his unit -They tended to receive fire missions (planned artillery attacks) at random times -Most of the time they just spent time sitting around being bored (00:46:18) On the Firebase -He remembers one firebase that his unit would get stationed at from time to time -Doesn’t recall the name, but remembers that it was on a flat plain -They received fire missions once and a while -Everyone would run to the guns and fire a few rounds then go back to doing nothing -At this particular firebase there was a friendly fire incident -Fortunately no one was hurt, or killed because of the mistake -He quickly realized that it had most likely been his error which caused it -He remembers that the firebase was consistently either hot, or wet (00:48:50) Plants and Animals in Vietnam -There were a lot of rats in Vietnam -He had to zip himself all the way up in his sleeping bag at night because of that -Otherwise the rats would start to nibble on your face or your stomach -During downtime soldiers would have tarantula fights, or races -Remembers one time at the firebase there was a contest to blow up a tree -It was an eyesore and 200-300 yards outside of the perimeter -The gun crew that could destroy the tree would be awarded a case of beer -The catch was that they could only use one round to destroy it -His crew was the only crew to hit the tree, so they won the beer -Aiming had been so good that it had been a direct hit �(00:51:55) Interaction with Vietnamese Civilians -He and other soldiers would occasionally leave the firebases and go into nearby towns -This gave them a chance to interact some with the Vietnamese -He remembers getting a haircut and massage at a Vietnamese barbershop -Drugs were sold freely and cheaply by the Vietnamese -He never engaged in that though -There were prostitutes in the areas that his unit was stationed -Remembers one instance where they drove through a rural area and stopped -All the soldiers left him behind in the truck and went over to a wooded area -Soon a soldier came back and asked if Marc wanted to pay for a prostitute -Marc declined -Only time that he distinctly remembers encountering blatant prostitution (00:54:25) Holidays in Vietnam -He remembers that on the holidays hot food would be brought in for the troops -On New Year’s Eve the artillery crews would fire flares straight up into the air -Similar to fireworks -On the holidays they usually had more whiskey and beer on base -For the most part men just wanted to be home when the holidays came around (00:55:40) Transfer to the 101st Airborne Division -His service with the 1st Infantry Division ended when Nixon began withdrawing troops -The 1st Infantry Division was a unit that had been selected to be brought home -Marc had a six month deployment commitment that had to be fulfilled -He had only completed four months of service -At this point he was told that he was going to be transferred to the 101st Airborne Division -Fairly indifferent to the transfer -After receiving transfer orders he was flown up north to the 101st operating area on a C-130 -The plane ride on the C-130 was not a comfortable one -On takeoff they had to elevate as quickly as possible to avoid ground fire -On landing they had to descend at a sharp angle also to avoid ground fire (00:57:11) Introduction to the 101st Airborne Division -He arrived at the 101st Airborne’s main base at Camp Evans -He received no introductory training upon his arrival -After landing at Camp Evans he was flown out to join the unit in the field via helicopter -Remembers that when he arrived in the field that it was late afternoon -The rear base for this area was Phu Bai -After leaving Camp Evans he was flown out to one of the nearby firebases -The artillery guns looked battered and neglected -He made a comment to the crew about that which was not received well -He adjusted to his new crew in the 101st over time -They eventually accepted him as their new crew chief -He didn’t make any friends because he was advised not to make any friends -Idea was that it a friend was killed in combat you would be too upset to function -His unit assignment was B Battery of the 319th Field Artillery of the 101st Airborne Division -He was still using 105mm howitzers (01:02:28) Operating in the Hill Country -His unit mostly stayed out in the hill country of Vietnam �-He very rarely returned to Camp Evans or Phu Bai -He was much busier with the 101st than with the 1st Infantry Division -Crews were expected to move faster -There was more tension -There was not as much downtime as there had been in the 1st Infantry Division -There was always a task of some kind to complete in the 101st -The gun crews were always short on people -In the 1st Infantry Division a normal crew was about six soldiers -In the 101st Airborne Division a normal gun crew was only four soldiers -At times a gun crew was only operating with two soldiers -Soldiers could be gone on sick leave, on R&R, drunk, or high (01:07:19) Drugs and Alcohol -Substance use didn’t really affect the overall effectiveness of the unit -There were two groups of soldiers: those who used drugs and those who drank too much -He remembers finding empty capsules around base -Vietnamese children would sell capsules of heroin or cocaine to American soldiers -He saw this more in the 1st Infantry because they were closer to cities -Being closer to cities meant that it was easier to buy drugs -He didn’t see that as much in the 101st Airborne because they were in the field more -Far more difficult to get hard drugs out in the middle of nowhere -Some soldiers would pay a helicopter pilot to buy whiskey and bring it back -He would occasionally drink beer, but he never did it in excess -Being a crew chief he had to keep the drinkers and the druggies from fighting each other -He doesn’t remember many, if any, soldiers opting out of their duties just to do drugs -Essentially soldiers would be incapacitated from drug use, but not done on purpose (01:09:48) Fire Missions -He never knew what the nature of the fire missions were -The only information he was given was the coordinates and how many rounds to fire (01:10:25) Transfer to Firebase Ripcord -His unit was eventually transferred to Firebase Ripcord -One day they received orders to go to a new a firebase -Firebase Ripcord held little significance to him at the time -They flew up to Ripcord and upon arrival started receiving mortar fire -It was an indication of things to come and that enemy presence was much heavier -His unit arrived on April 18, 1970 -The firebase had been established on April 11, 1970 -It had taken three attempts to establish Firebase Ripcord -First things he noticed about Ripcord was that it was noisy, dirty, windy and smoky -One of the first matters of business was getting his gun set up and building a bunker -The landscape at Ripcord was pretty unimpressive -It was just a bare, flat hilltop -Their missions were essentially the same as before: act as artillery support for the infantry -Upon arrival they were responsible for building up the sandbag fortifications -His crew started receiving fire missions before he even had his shelter built -The type of shelter that was built at firebases was called a “hooch” -It was a dugout space in the ground with sandbags on top to protect you from mortars �(1:16:12) – (1:19:54) Disc Hiccups (01:19:54) Enemy Contact at Ripcord -At 3 or 4 in the morning the Viet Cong or North Vietnamese would try to assault the firebase -Artillery crews would lower guns to be fired parallel to the ground -They used “beehive” rounds which contained thousands of flechettes -Highly effective and devastating antipersonnel rounds -He saw a lot of U.S. Cobra gunship helicopters and F4 Phantom jets flying air strikes -He didn’t see the use of B-52 heavy bombers until later in the war -Some days were quieter than other in terms of enemy contact (01:21:10) Beginning of the Battle of Ripcord -On July 1, 1970 the North Vietnamese began what would be the Battle of Ripcord -On July 1 he was so exhausted that he was sleeping through the incoming fire -He was woken up by a superior and ordered to go to his gun -Later learned that as he ran to his gun mortars were landing directly behind him -The action on July 1 would mark the beginning of a twenty three day siege -He wasn’t aware of what was happening to American infantry units out in the field -He didn’t learn about the company that was overrun at Hill 902 until later -There was constant helicopter activity around the firebase during the battle -He quickly became desensitized to the incoming fire (01:23:55) Leadership at Ripcord -He remembers giving an order to a soldier in his crew during the battle -The soldier went to the wrong area -That area took a direct mortar hit and the soldier was killed -Sometime during the siege he was moved to a different gun -Removed him from his native unit -He lost contact with the original men that he had served with -His commanding officer, Captain Rich, had done seven tours of service in Vietnam -He was friendly to Marc -Marc learned more about the man later in life -It made him more real than the myth he’d been built up to be at Ripcord -He had little contact with Captain Rich though because of the difference in rank -Officers were kept separate from noncommissioned officers (01:28:26) The Battle of Ripcord Intensifies -Over the course of July the bombardment by the NVA became more intense -Marc’s battery, B, was eventually destroyed in the fighting -The NVA began to make use of 120mm rockets -They originally thought that US forces were firing at Ripcord as part of friendly fire -Captain Rich grabbed Marc and led him to where the crater was -Captain Rich dug up a fin from a rocket and knew that it was a 120mm rocket -This was a total game changer for the battle -120mm rockets could destroy just about anything with relative ease -They started to receive more rockets as July went on -U.S. air strikes became more intense and more prevalent -Sometime during the battle the NVA fired a CS (tear) gas round into Ripcord -Marc put on his gas mask only to find that it was essentially useless -At one point Marc and another soldier had to carry a wounded soldier to the medical bunker �-They took him into an empty room and told him to wait for a medic there -As soon as Marc and the soldier leave the room is hit by enemy artillery -The soldier inside is killed instantly -As the battle went on he remember Captain Rich even getting more nervous (01:35:00) Chinook Helicopter Crash at Firebase Ripcord -On the morning of July 18 Marc was at his battery conducting a fire mission -He saw a U.S. Chinook supply helicopter coming in to drop off supplies -Noticed that the Chinook was on fire -Saw that it was rapidly descending, so he ran for cover -The Chinook wound up crashing into the ammo cache causing munitions to go off -Marc was able to seek shelter with other soldiers while the ammunition exploded -He had to wait there for a few hours for all of the ammo to explode -At the time he felt cowardly for not doing anything to help -But in retrospect he realizes there was nothing to be done -At the time Marc thought that the crash was going to be more catastrophic than it was -The helicopter was carrying a rubber bladder -Water was carried in these giant rubber bladders -Incidentally fuel was carried in an identical bladder -Marc thought the rubber bladder was fuel and was preparing for the worst -Turned out that it was a water -By the time the ammunition had all detonated his battery had been destroyed -He had no gun, no “hooch” and no possessions -After the crash he didn’t have any real function left on the base -He was given a helmet, a flak jacket and a M16 rifle and told to stay out of the way -He was able to catch some much needed sleep and that afternoon woke in a panic to artillery fire -Learned quickly that it was American artillery fire being fired away from the base (01:42:45) Leaving Firebase Ripcord -He left Firebase Ripcord on July 22, 1970 -The next day, July 23, Firebase Ripcord was abandoned and destroyed by U.S. B-52 bombers -He left Ripcord by way of helicopter and was taken back to Camp Evans -At Camp Evans he was allowed to make one phone call, so he called home (01:43:28) Contact with Family -While he was at Ripcord he was still able to receive mail -In the process of receiving mail he started to receive “get well” cards -This confused him since he hadn’t been wounded, or gotten sick -When he arrived at Camp Evans after the Fall of Ripcord he was able to call home -This was accomplished through a short wave radio relay system -He was able to get ahold of his family in Pittsburgh at 3 AM -Told his mother that he was okay -Learned that he’d been mistakenly reported wounded which explained the cards (01:46:07) End of Service with 101st Airborne Division -After Ripcord he didn’t stay with the 101st too much longer -He had initially signed up for a three year commitment to the Army when he enlisted -He had decided to extend his time in Vietnam -He signed up for an extra six months in Vietnam, but after that he was completely done -It just so happened that a few days after he signed up for that, Ripcord happened �(01:47:49) Going Home on Leave -He was able to return home for thirty days of leave -He didn’t experience any harassment from anti-war protestors -He returned to welcoming friends and family -While home on leave he was able to attend a friend’s wedding -While home on leave he was issued his Liquor Control Board card -This enabled him to purchase alcohol in Pennsylvania -He accepted that he was going back to Vietnam -He knew that it would only be for six more months (01:50:24) Returning to Vietnam -Upon his return to Vietnam he signed up to work on a different artillery gun -He was assigned to the 8 inch and 175mm self-propelled artillery guns -Essentially a tank, but with an artillery cannon instead of a tank gun -The prospect of being in self-propelled artillery was exciting to him -He was assigned to the 25th Infantry Division -Operating in the northern part of South Vietnam, just south of the demilitarized zone (01:51:15) Serving with the 25th Infantry Division -His unit didn’t move around as much as he had during his previous tour -The artillery pieces were too big to move -It wasn’t necessary to continuously move them because of their range -The 175mm could reach up to twenty three miles -The 8 inch could reach up to ten miles -He worked predominantly with the 175mm -He learned how to properly load the gun -Learned that the recoil was so powerful you could be knocked off the tank -Powder bags for each round weighed one hundred pounds -This cannon happened to be fed with a hydraulic system -The explosion was always incredibly loud -It took much longer to load and to fire -The bases that they were operating out of were much farther away from civilian centers -One of the bases, Camp Carroll, was located directly south of the demilitarized zone -They were so close to North Vietnam they could see NVA troops across the border -They were able to raise their flag at the same time the NVA raised their flag -They would fire a few artillery rounds at each other and then take a break -To Marc the whole thing seemed fairly absurd and stylized -His last six months in Vietnam were basically spent on the demilitarized zone (01:54:50) End of Service -His time in Vietnam ended on April 30, 1971 -Towards the end of his service he volunteered to be an infantryman -He was curious about taking part in the incursions into Cambodia and Laos -He was interviewed for the position of being a general’s driver -His request was ultimately denied -At the end of his service he didn’t know whether they were firing into Cambodia or Laos -At the end of his service he noticed that the war was definitely winding down -Drug use became more prevalent in those last six months -Race issues started to crop up more between the black and the white soldiers �-To him the whole idea of being divided over race seemed pointless -Soldiers would naturally form their own groups -Rural soldiers, city soldiers, and black soldiers -By the end of his service the Black Power movement was in full swing -To him, race was irrelevant: if you can do your job, I don’t care what you are -Fragging became more prevalent -That is the assassination of a superior officer by a subordinate -The sergeant major of his unit had an attempt on his life -It was usually done using frag grenades to make it look like an accident -By the end of his tour he was just concerned with not being the last American killed in the war -He’d heard stories of men who died on their last patrol -This created animosity towards the superiors which led to fragging -He, and other soldiers, began to question whether or not the war had been worthwhile -Despite the combination of morale issues the unit was still able to work effectively (02:00:36) Leaving Vietnam and Coming Home -When it was time to go he simply saw that it was time to go -There was nothing sentimental about the departure -He flew from Vietnam to Fort Lewis, Washington -On the way over they stopped in Anchorage, Alaska to refuel -As soon as they left Vietnam everyone on board the plane was in a great mood -At Fort Lewis he was processed out of the Army and given a medical screening -Learned that he had lost about 10% of his hearing -Didn’t really affect his life though -He has a spot on his leg that causes him pain from time to time -Medical personnel didn’t have an answer for it -He attributes it to when he crashed the truck in basic training -At Fort Lewis he was given a plane ticket for a flight to Pittsburgh -When the cabin door closed it sounded like a NVA 82mm mortar exploding -Caused him and the soldier next to him to jump -They shared a laugh afterwards -When he arrived home nobody knew that he was coming -He was able to surprise his father at the insurance agency (02:04:30) Life after the War -He decided to go to college on the GI Bill -He bought a Datsun 240Z sports car -He had been sending money home to save up for it -It was only $3600 new at the time -He bought a bright orange one -He attended college at the Rochester Institute of Technology in New York -He had no real urge to go to college; it just seemed like a thing to do -He majored in business -He was placed in an engineering fraternity -During his second year a plane landed on the campus -For only $16 he could take flying lessons, so he did -During his second year of college he decided to leave -He didn’t feel like he had any direction in school �-He felt bored being in school after being in combat -After leaving college he got an apartment in Pittsburgh -Lived with a roommate who was a Liquor Control Board agent -Neighborhood was so bad they would take a pistol to go to the Laundromat -During that time in Pittsburgh he got a job at a Hickory Farms store -He was fired from that job because they wanted young girls to sell their products -He got a job at an Arby’s in downtown Pittsburgh -He was one of their first employees -Stayed there for a while -During that time he would work from 6 AM – 2 PM -After work he would go and continue his flying lessons (02:09:27) Working for the Family Insurance Agency -One day he got a call from his father saying that help was needed at the insurance agency -His first job was making rubber seals and setting type for official documents -He also did various odd jobs for the company -He started off in the mail room -This was all part of a five year apprenticeship program -After a while he was able to work his way up to the front room -He has been working for the agency for forty two years (as of the time of the interview) (02:10:59) A Good and a Bad Time in Vietnam -During his time in Vietnam he found that war has a strange beauty to it -One of the better times was the New Year’s Eve he spent in Vietnam -He remembers being on a firebase on top of a hill drinking with his comrades -The artillery and the infantry were shooting flares into the sky as fireworks -He remembers watching all the other units in the area doing the same -One of the bad times was while he was travelling from one area to the next -He was in a 2.5 ton Army truck with a group of other soldiers -One of the soldiers had to relieve himself, so he stood up and urinated off the truck -This soldier wound up urinating on a couple of Vietnamese girls going by -They were understandably upset, but couldn’t do anything to retaliate -He remembers that that was the definitive “ugly American” experience -Only other time similar to that was the incident with the prostitute (02:15:10) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -His time in the Army and in Vietnam gave him quick exposure to the “real world” -He was able to see Vietnam, Hong Kong and Australia (the last two while on R&R) -It gave him a chance to be around men from all over the United States -For him it was jarring to go back to suburban America -He feels that a lot of people would benefit from that kind of exposure -He doesn’t believe that his service necessarily made him a better person -Feels that it just made him more worldly and realistic -He never had to visibly shoot and kill anyone -There is one experience involving a Vietnamese mortar team that has stuck with him -There was a mortar team down the hill from a firebase -They fired on it and definitely killed both of them -At the time it didn’t affect him, but later on he has had remorse -Realizes that they both had families and were just following orders �-He doesn’t have any interest as being seen as an “old fashioned” veteran -Meaning marching in parades or being involved with veterans’ groups -He has never felt the need to go spend time with old “war buddies” -His service has made him more pragmatic and direct in his approach to tasks -His brother calls him jokingly “Sergeant Marc” -He doesn’t see the point in debating a task, just get it done -His approach wasn’t always appreciated because it tended to be unorthodox -This in turn has forced him to be more patient (02:23:50) Moments of Peace -He has only had two moments of peace in his life -Always had a hard time finding the chance to be still and contemplative -Once was while flying back to Pittsburgh in his own plane at dusk -The other time was in Vietnam while he was at Ripcord -There was a lull in the fighting prior to the battle -He remembers watching the sun rise and looking out at the landscape -He could see the peaceful land and the South China Sea -No signs of battle, or a human presence -It was surprisingly beautiful (02:28:40) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -He didn’t really think about his experiences too much after they were over -He had always been open about talking about his experiences -During a divorce he was contacted by Keith Noland who was writing about Ripcord -It was one of the few times that talking about Ripcord shook him -He didn’t suffer from PTSD, but that phone call had a profound effect on him (02:31:00) Ripcord Reunions -He attended the 30th Ripcord Reunion that was in Shreveport, Louisiana -Most of the men had been in the infantry, so he didn’t really know anyone -Captain Rich showed up, so Marc got a chance to see him again -He felt more emotional attachment to the event than to the people -He went to the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania reunion for a few hours -He always felt alienated at reunions having been in the artillery and not the infantry -He is (at the time of the interview) considering going to the Myrtle Beach Reunion (Oct. 2014) -He might be more inclined to go since other artillery veterans are going -The one reunion he definitely wants to attend is the 50th Ripcord Reunion -To him it seems essential since a fiftieth anniversary is always a landmark moment � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_AronsonM1657V Title A name given to the resource Aronson, Marc (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-07-09 Description An account of the resource Marc Aronson was born in 1949 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and attended a military academy in Virginia and graduated in 1968. In September 1968 he enlisted in the Army in Pittsburgh and soon after he began basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina where he also completed Army Driver's Training. After the eight weeks of basic training he attended artillery training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma beginning in December 1968 where he received training on the 105mm howitzer and also attended Noncommissioned Officer School there making him a sergeant and also making him the crew chief for a gun. In September 1969 he was deployed to Vietnam where he served with the 1st Infantry Division operating out of Di An. After four months of service he was transferred to B Battery of the 319th Field Artillery of the 101st Airborne Division. During his time with the 101st he was transferred to Firebase Ripcord where he witnessed the battle and eventual fall of Ripcord. After his time with the 101st he was transferred to the 25th Infantry Division where he worked with 8 inch and 175mm self-propelled artillery tanks near the demilitarized zone, and returned home and was discharged in 1971. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Aronson, Marc Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8669d4646ceaf826380b8a24f3d48267.m4v 49155b33c4b2a588fc1cf1aa117ff10b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e1a4ebebbc5e7959cb84604c1d6f1053.pdf 7d64c85d056e8d02c2ae70bda670a9d1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Willard "Bill" Alverson Korean War & Vietnam War 1 hour 55 minutes (00:00:43) Early Life -Born in 1929 in Olympia, Washington -Grew up in Olympia -Planned on living in Olympia for the rest of his life -His father worked in saw mills -His mother was a housewife -He had one brother -His father didn’t have steady work during the Great Depression -They had food and a house though, so he didn’t pay much attention to it (00:01:44) World War II -He was chopping wood when he heard the news that Pearl Harbor had been bombed -Immediately after the start of the war everyone in Washington was anxious -Believed that Japan would mount an invasion of the West Coast -Civilian Defense groups were formed -He was a bicycle messenger and took part in the drills -Remembers a Japanese family that he was close with being interned during the war -Never saw, or heard from them again -He hoped that the war would go on long enough for him to be able to fight in it -Felt that he owed something to his country (00:04:17) College & Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) -Went on to attend college at Washington State University in Pullman, Washington -It was a Land Grant School which meant he had to take at least two years of ROTC -Received leadership training and map reading courses -There was a six week summer camp that consisted of basic military training -A milder form of basic training -Received weapons training with rifles, pistols, machine guns, and mortars -This summer camp took place between his junior and senior year -There were 2500 ROTC cadets at the camp -Took place at Fort Lewis, Washington -Graduated from college in June 1951 (00:06:27) Becoming an Officer -After college he was offered a commission to become an officer in the Army -Initially declined because he just wanted to get out of the Army -He was eventually convinced to accept the commission -Told that he would be on a fast track to getting promoted -Went to Fort Benning, Georgia for an officers’ training course -Lasted four months -Consisted of more weapons training, leadership training, and navigation training -Introduced to the discipline and physical conditioning of the Army �-He tried to go to jump school (paratrooper training), but was declined (00:08:20) Deployment to Korea Pt. 1 -Left the United States in January 1952 -En route stopped in Yokohama, Japan (00:08:44) Assignment in Japan Pt. 1 -Before going to Korea new second lieutenants were assigned to a unit in Japan -Six months of learning how to command a unit before going to Korea -It was a chance to get introduced to being an officer -His assignment was on the island of Hokkaido, Japan -Attached to the 7th Cavalry Regiment of the 1st Cavalry Division -The commander was tough, but a good and fair man -He had served in WWII and during the 1950 march into North Korea -Focused on squad (10 soldiers) and platoon (40 soldiers) tactics -Most of the enlisted men he commanded had already seen combat -The sergeants under him taught him how to be a good and effective officer (00:11:14) Deployment to Korea Pt. 2 -In Korea he was assigned to Easy Company 15th Infantry Regiment 3rd Infantry Division -When he arrived in Korea he had a rifle, but was not given any ammunition for it (00:11:58) Assignment in Japan Pt. 2 -While he was in Japan there was a lot of training and very little downtime -Trained near the town of Sapporo, Japan -Only went into the town once while on duty -Part of courtesy patrol to pick up unruly soldiers and bring them back to base -He had little, to no contact with the Japanese civilians (00:12:49) Deployment to Korea Pt. 3 -When he arrived in Korea he saw firsthand the devastation -Poverty, poor sanitation, and pitiful people were everywhere -He was sent up to the frontline in August 1952 -Stationed near a little town called Cheorwan south of the 38th Parallel -Located in a valley about fifty to sixty miles from the coast (00:14:31) Conditions in Korea and Unit Organization -Originally there wasn’t any action when he arrived -The most fighting happened during patrols or when communist forces charged their line -Lived in foxholes and bunkers -The bunkers were sturdy and well-defended by barbed wire and landmines -Easy Company was understrength -His platoon consisted of three different groups of soldiers -Regular American GIs -South Korean soldiers -Puerto Rican soldiers from the 65th Regiment -He had an outstanding platoon sergeant while in Korea (00:17:31) Enemy Contact and Fighting in Korea -Went on patrols about once, or twice, a week -Most patrols were conducted at night -More difficult and dangerous than the daytime patrols -Objective was to gather intelligence and put pressure on the North Koreans �-Patrols were generally quite costly -A few men were taken prisoner, killed, or wounded during them -Mostly went up against Chinese soldiers -Noticed that North Korean soldiers were far more aggressive when they fought -Enemy activity increased as the war went on -Both sides were jockeying to establish the best defensive positions before the war ended -There were battles at Outpost Harry, Jackson Heights and White Horse -During fighting they held their position and the communists held their position -There was one point during the fighting where they were taking at least one casualty a day -He had access to artillery and air support -The artillery support was excellent -The air support was a little lacking especially in the area of accuracy -Chinese troops would attack in waves -The first wave had weapons, and the second wave would pick up the dropped rifles -Used a lot of fanfare while charging (whistles and trumpets) -They were persistent, dogged soldiers -They were never able to break through the American perimeter (00:23:16) End of Deployment and Miscellaneous Details -Left Korea on May 1, 1953 -A friend of his was killed, saving his life, in Korea -There was a high turnover of U.S. troops coming and going -He eventually got to know the South Koreans that he served with -Felt bad for them because they couldn’t really leave the fighting -It was their country and they were stuck there -He had a South Korean assistant machine gunner who was a good man -He called him John -During the Chinese charges they would sometimes run out of ammunition (00:26:40) Rear Duty and R&R in Korea -Generally didn’t want to go to the rear for duty -Being in the rear meant not getting combat pay -Also meant doing menial tasks like digging ditches -They would get rotated off the line occasionally -Command tried to give everyone somewhat of a break around Christmas -He got an R&R to Japan -Given three minutes to call his wife and his family -Went up to a resort near Mount Fuji -Got a chance to have some drinks and relax -He had the chance to get a few more days of R&R -Wound up declining because the regiment needed him (00:29:33) Making a Career out of the Army -His initial commitment to the Army was for three years -He fully intended to resign after his third year of service -Eventually decided to stay in and make a career out of it though -Started to think about leading soldiers as being similar to being a football coach -Before serving he had originally wanted to be a high school football coach -He began to enjoy being in the Army and wanted to strive to be a fair leader �(00:31:33) Stateside Army Career -His first assignment after coming back from Korea was at Fort Lewis, Washington -Three year assignment -Served as a rifle company commander there -He got selected to be the regimental football coach -The draft was still on while he was at Fort Lewis -They were mostly just ordinary men -Some of the draftees had been convicted of various crimes -Serving in the Army was their way out of jail -Men from a variety of backgrounds were being drafted -Learned that the key to successful leadership was having mutual respect -His next assignment was at Fort Benning, Georgia -Took the Infantry Officer Course there -Nine month course -Coincided with the normal school schedule -Allowed for his children to not get pulled out of school in the middle of it -Part of the process of getting promoted from a captain to a major -There was a lot of competition between the officers to be the best -Mostly consisted of classroom training -Also received some more weapons training and navigation training -He completed the course and went to jump school (paratrooper school) -His next assignment was being a trainer for the ROTC at Washington State University -Requested that assignment to be close to his family -His father was dying of cancer and he wanted to be near him -Three year assignment -The hours were terrible -Felt strange to be on an 8 – 5 schedule -Completed that assignment in 1960 (00:36:02) Army Ranger School -After the ROTC assignment he went to the Army Ranger School -The training was difficult -It was the only course where he was an honor graduate -Started at Fort Benning, Georgia then went into the mountains, then to swamps in Florida -Each area consisted of three weeks of training -Learned how to go on patrols in the mountains and in the swamps -Only allowed to have seven hours of sleep per week -Some men would fall asleep standing up and then fall over -Started with 225 men and only 83 men completed the course -If they were hurt, or washed out, they could not recycle and try again -Most didn’t want to try again anyway -The training required a lot of physical and mental stamina -Graduated from the Army Ranger School in the fall of 1960 (00:38:52) Assignment to Germany -Sent to Frankfurt, Germany to serve with the 3rd Armored Division -Three year assignment -Defending against a possible Soviet invasion of West Germany �-Served as a rifle company commander -Became the operations officer of one of the brigades of the division -His unit had good morale -Led by General Creighton Abrams -They were immediately put on alert during the various Cold War crises that developed -His wife and children were in Berlin when the Soviets put up the Berlin Wall -They were able to be evacuated out of Berlin without incident -His unit and the West German government reacted immediately -If there was an invasion he knew that they wouldn’t be able to hold out for long -Even with tactical nuclear weapons available to them (00:42:27) Interactions with German Civilians -The Germans held various opinions of Americans -Some were pro-American, others were not -Germans knew that American had money and spent it, which they liked -He rented a house from a German man and his wife -He and his wife got to be good friends with the couple -No German man wanted to admit that he had been in the German Army during WWII -He was just curious to see what it had been like (00:44:00) Cuban Missile Crisis and Other Alerts -The Cuban Missile Crisis was a very big deal in Germany when it happened -Checked their equipment and immediately went on alert -Some units were sent to an assembly area to prepare for a counterattack -They were better prepared than they had been during the Berlin Wall Crisis -There was not as much tension as the Berlin Wall either -For about two to three weeks they were ready for a Soviet attack -After about a month they relaxed and the routine returned to normal -They had monthly drills to check their preparedness -Always made sure to treat each drill as if it was the real thing -In a way he always kind of thought that World War III wouldn’t happen -Knew that even if it did his unit would be prepared (00:47:05) Attending the Command General Staff College -His time in Germany ended in June 1963 -He left the day that President Kennedy came to Germany -He was sent to attend the Command General Staff College in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas -It was the best family assignment -Had his nights and weekends off -It was a nine month course -He was in class when President Kennedy was assassinated -Classes were cancelled and the college was shut down -Everyone behaved appropriately -Everyone was shocked that it had happened -Any planned festivities for the weekend were cancelled -No matter what a person’s political orientation was, they mourned the loss -While at the College he paid attention to the situation developing in Vietnam -Some of his classmates had already been to Vietnam -Completed the Command General Staff College in 1964 �(00:50:45) 6th Army Headquarters -Sent to 6th Army Headquarters in San Francisco, California -It was first and only time that he couldn’t get along with his boss -He worked there for a year as a staff officer -In charge of inspecting the division and evaluating them -Wound up failing them -There were politics involved and he was told to reassess and pass them -He refused which hurt his career (00:51:47) Volunteering for Vietnam -He volunteered to go to Vietnam -He was initially assigned to be a staff officer in Vietnam -Once he arrived he requested a change of assignment and was granted it -Became a Ranger Commander for a South Vietnamese Ranger unit -Went to the Military Assistance Training Advisors Course at Fort Bragg, North Carolina -Learned about the culture, language, and climate of Vietnam -Also learned about the organization of the South Vietnamese military -The MATA Course only lasted one month -He was sent to the Army Language School -Learned at least enough Vietnamese to be able to give orders in Vietnamese -It was a six week rudimentary course (00:54:40) Arrival in Vietnam -He landed at Tan Son Nhut Airbase in Saigon, South Vietnam -Tried to talk to the Vietnamese bus driver in Vietnamese -Bus driver told him, in perfect English, that he had a Hanoi accent -Hanoi being the capitol of communist North Vietnam -He flew over to Vietnam on a military aircraft -Arrived in Vietnam in early January 1966 -Kept in a hotel while he was being processed -His initial assignment was as a staff officer in Saigon before becoming the Ranger Commander -Assignment lasted three weeks -He was sent up to Pleiku to join a South Vietnamese Ranger unit there -Flew up there via helicopter -In Pleiku his job was to serve as an American advisor -This gave him access to artillery and aerial support (00:58:30) Working with the South Vietnamese and Going on Raids -They normally didn’t have time to prepare for an operation -They would just have to get up and go -The South Vietnamese officers were generally incompetent -Used their authority to abuse their power -Conducted raids against the Viet Cong -Mostly targeted Viet Cong supply depots -Also went out on missions to kill Viet Cong soldiers, or take prisoners -Operated in mountainous terrain and in some of the lowland areas -Preferred to work in the mountains and not in the swampy lowlands -Enlisted (non-officer) South Vietnamese soldiers had to provide their own food -Even in hospitals their families had to come to take care of them �-Remembers seeing in one hospital two Vietnamese soldiers in one bed -Went on raids about once a month -Spent a lot of his time trying to convince officers that they needed to constantly train -Sometimes they would be helicoptered into the mission area, other times they had to walk -Vietnamese helicopter pilots would take breaks -Even if there was a wounded man needing evacuation they wouldn’t go -American helicopter pilots would react immediately if the situation presented itself -He saw more combat than he thought he would -Remembers once during a village clearing mission they ran into an ambush -Ultimately able to maneuver out of the situation -Some of the South Vietnamese were excellent soldiers, while others weren’t -There was always the suspicion that they were Viet Cong -If you got to know South Vietnamese soldiers they were ultimately trustworthy -He wasn’t close, but was at least cordial, with the South Vietnamese Ranger Commander -There were a few close calls while he was in Vietnam -Once was during the village clearing mission -Another time was when the enemy attacked their position at Pleiku -The enemy ran out of ammunition and he had access to heavier firepower -There was resentment between the U.S. and South Vietnamese troops -The South Vietnamese wanted better equipment -Americans wanted the South Vietnamese to be better soldiers -He spent the majority of his time on the base at Pleiku -The South Vietnamese soldiers were allowed to bring their families to the base -They were also allowed to bring them with them on patrols -The Viet Cong would use that to their advantage and attack through the civilians -Prevented the South Vietnamese from returning fire (01:10:13) Opinion of War during Deployment -Felt that the American media’s portrayal of the war was grossly inaccurate -There were allegations that U.S. troops were wantonly killing civilians -Civilians did die, but they were not being specifically targeted by U.S. troops -At the time he honestly thought that the U.S. was winning the war -Didn’t know when it would end, but knew it would eventually come to an end -He feels that the politics involved is what caused the war to be lost -On the ground it seemed like the U.S. was going to push through to absolute victory (01:11:52) R&R to Hawaii -During his time in Vietnam he was given an R&R to Hawaii -Spent five days with his wife in Hawaii -Going back to Vietnam after that R&R was terrible for him -Remembers on the return trip flying across Vietnam when the airplane began to have trouble -Eventually made it back to the base at Pleiku without incident (01:13:34) Assignment to Command General Staff College -After Vietnam he was initially given a new assignment to the 11th Brigade in Hawaii -His orders were changed and he became a staff member at Command General Staff College -His specialization was to advise on how to fight in Vietnam -Three year assignment -Trained officers on how to fight in Vietnam �-Most had already been to Vietnam and offered their own input as well -At the time he was frustrated by the leadership and the country as a whole during the war -No one knew exactly what they wanted to do; fight the war, or don’t fight the war -Wondered why we stopped the bombing campaign when it was weakening North Vietnam -He wound up speaking out against the indecisiveness of the American leadership -He was promptly advised not to do that -Thought that Nixon was a good leader, but was a dishonest man -Felt that one of his redeeming qualities was his expertise of foreign policy -Felt that Abrams replacing Westmoreland was a good move -Felt that Westmoreland’s competence was deteriorating along with the war -It was interesting to discuss Vietnam with the men who had also served there -Especially those who had seen the worst years of the war -Offered different perspectives (01:20:23) Working with a Volunteer Army -There was always the expectation that he’d go back to Vietnam for a second tour -Before returning he was stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina -Working as a trainer for a Special Forces Battalion -Stayed at Fort Bragg for one year -Felt that a volunteer based Army was going to have lesser quality - The Army was trying to make itself appealing for volunteers thus lowering standards -Felt that high standards should be maintained no matter what -The reason the Army lowered its standards was because volunteering was unpopular -The soldiers he worked with at Fort Bragg were more motivated than the average soldier -Felt that if anything was going to keep high standards it was the Special Forces (01:24:30) Redeployment to Vietnam -He was on the list to become a colonel -He hadn’t received an assignment when he should have -This led to him going to graduate school at Washington State University -Went into guidance counseling and graduated from that course -After finishing graduate school he was selected to be a logistician in Vienam -Assigned to be the Army Airbase Commander at Can Tho in the Mekong Delta -As the logistician he handled all the supplies for the base (gas, food, clothing, etc.) -Also oversaw the transportation of supplies and troops -On the base had access to propeller aircraft, helicopters, and classified recon aircraft -He got most of his information about the war from the recon pilots -Base was located on the edge of the city of Can Tho -The base had perimeter lights which he felt was a strategically bad idea -Allowed for the enemy to know exactly where they were -There was one incident where South Vietnamese Rangers hacked into the American generators -They were drawing electricity from the generators to feed Can Tho -He (Bill) invited the provincial chief to the base and brought him to a rooftop -Showed him that the U.S. still controlled the electricity -Did this by completely powering down, then restarting, Can Tho -Arrived in Vietnam in August 1972 -At the time of his arrival had an Air Cavalry Squadron and a South Vietnamese Division �(01:32:25) End of Vietnam War -By January 1973 more U.S. troops left as part of the drawdown -By February 1973 most of the base’s barracks were empty -One problem was that there weren’t enough troops to patrol the perimeter -Had to hire local people to maintain security -Didn’t even have South Vietnamese troops to protect the base -Troops had stripped the base of its electrical and plumbing components -As a result the South Vietnamese commander refused to take over the base -Said that the U.S. was trying to give him an incomplete base -Bill threatened to burn down the base if the commander wouldn’t take it -The commander eventually cooperated -Remembers when the Four Powers Peace Commission came in for negotiations -There were Canadians and Indonesians representing the U.S. and South Vietnam -There were Hungarians and Poles representing North Vietnam -One of his jobs was to set up housing for the officers from those countries -The Hungarians and Poles had to get approval from the Soviet Union -Remembers arm wrestling with the communist Hungarian colonel -At the end of the war there was very little enemy activity -They would receive a mortar round from time to time -The last mortar fired on their base was a dud -The Air Cavalry would still go out on missions to support U.S. troops in the field (01:37:24) Discipline and Morale Problems -He didn’t see any drug problems during his second tour in Vietnam -Knew that it was more of a problem for support units, not for combat units -Combat units just simply didn’t have the time to get high -The soldiers knew that the end was near which caused some problems -The primary focus became getting home and not so much the war -Only had to court martial one officer for dereliction of duty though -Soldiers still followed the orders they were given (01:39:35) Ceasefire Incident -During the ceasefire a U.S. helicopter was shot down -Resulted in seventeen U.S. servicemen being killed in action -He was responsible for getting a team together to go out and recover the bodies -He had trouble getting the necessary personnel organized -Simply didn’t have enough of the right people to do the job -Once they were out there they started receiving fire from an enemy ground force -Led to having to send out troops to protect the recovery personnel -Ran into a reporter on the base that had written a false article about the incident -Said that U.S. troops were refusing to follow orders and recover dead soldiers -Had the reporter thrown off the base (01:42:52) Race Relations in the Army -In Can Tho there was a mixed population on the base -Never saw any major race problems -Knew that if there were issues they were on a small level and dealt with -One of the finest soldiers he served with was a black soldier in Korea -Most men just wanted to work with each other to have the war end on a decent note �(01:45:10) Leaving Vietnam -When it came time to leave he had to make sure that all U.S. personnel were accounted for -Had a head count every day -By the last day there were only thirty three U.S. troops left on the base -They all flew up together to Saigon -When they arrived Saigon was chaotic as U.S. troops collected in the city -He still has the last U.S. flag to fly over the base at Can Tho -The evacuation went smoother than he thought it would -Left Vietnam in 1973 (01:47:04) End of Army Career -Stayed in the Army for five more years -During those last five years he was promoted to the rank of colonel -He was offered three assignments: -Work at the Pentagon, command Camp McCoy, Wisconsin, or ROTC duty -He chose the ROTC duty -He wanted to have a positive effect on young, new officers -Sent to Pocatello, Idaho to serve at Idaho State University -There was a large anti-war movement there -Resulted in not having enough ROTC volunteers -There were good junior officers that had a great work ethic in the ROTC there -While at Idaho State University had a run-in with a hippie -He was accused of killing civilians and words were exchanged -Always embarrassed for having even engaged the protestor -The ROTC cadets did face some harassment from protestors -It was an overall enjoyable assignment though -After completing his duty at Idaho State University he retired from the Army (01:50:57) Life after the Army -He drove a school bus -First time that someone talked back to him which was a surprise after being a colonel -Sold light airplanes for a while -Worked for a credit company based out of Denver, Colorado -Helped establish credit collection bureaus in small towns -Became a team chief and worked with his wife -He was eventually placed in charge of maintenance for a school district in Olympia, WA -One of his sons got married to a girl in Michigan, had two children, then retired -Bill and his wife moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan to be closer to the grandchildren (01:53:15) Reflections on Service -Feels that his service in the Army made him more conservative than when he began -Made him appreciate some of the problems that politicians have to deal with -In a way it made him a more tolerant person -Taught him how to work with people, especially young people � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_AlversonW1675V Title A name given to the resource Alverson, Willard (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-02 Description An account of the resource Bill Alverson was born in 1929 in Olympia, Washington and grew up there. He completed ROTC training in college and was commissioned in the Army in 1951. He went to Japan in January, 1952 and trained for service in Korea. He served as a platoon leader in E Company, 15th Regiment, 3rd Infantry Division in Korea during the last year of the war. He left Korea on May 1, 1953 and began a career in the Army serving at Fort Lewis, Washington Fort Benning, Georgia completing paratrooper training, being a trainer for the ROTC at Washington State University, and completing Army Ranger School in the fall of 1960. He served in Germany during the time of the Berlin Wall and Cuban Missile crises and studied at the Command General Staff College in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. In 1965 he volunteered to go to Vietnam and was sent over in January 1966 to be an Army Ranger advisor for the South Vietnamese Rangers in Pleiku, South Vietnam. He helped carry out raids against the Viet Cong during his time there. After his deployment to Vietnam he returned to the United States and served at the Command General Staff College and at Fort Bragg, North Carolina helping train Special Forces. In 1972 he was redeployed to Vietnam and arrived there in August 1972. He was assigned to the Army Airbase near Can Tho in the Mekong Delta commanding the Air Cavalry Squadron and South Vietnamese Division there. The second tour ended in March 1973. He returned to the U.S. and served as an ROTC instructor at Idaho State University until his retirement in 1978 retiring with the rank of colonel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alverson, Willard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb5e87df9b52898e847d4edada76b704.m4v 46bb33549ac3a5912aa2071ca405ffac https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6ef0f65b15fcb209d1b082516308a93.pdf 54d5a17006848bf23721f5c8d37a6ddd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran's History Project US Navy Paul Allen Total Time (01:23:00) Introduction (00:00:19)  Paul was born in 1926 in South Boston; his heritage includes some Irish and English (00:00:34)  His father served in WWI for the US Navy where he met his future wife in Belfast, Ireland (00:00:46)  Paul graduated from high school on February 1st, 1942; he was only 15 when he graduated as he skipped a couple of grades (00:02:19) ◦ He mentions that in middle school and high school that he was aware of what was going on in the world due to the Boston school system (00:04:15) ◦ Although he wanted to go to Harvard, Paul knew he would eventually end up in the military so he became a welder until then (00:05:42) ▪ Paul took the naval aviation exam and passed it- from there he went to Dartmouth College for mechanical engineering (00:07:00) ▪ Due to a small color blindness issue, Paul was sent to the Supply Corps by 1945; he went to school in New Jersey by the time the war was just ending (00:08:56) ▪ After he graduated from that school, he was stationed to the battleship New Jersey as the dispersing officer (00:09:07)  While he was at Dartmouth, Paul received naval and military training; in addition he took 15 hours of classes each semester (00:10:29)  Paul was the youngest officer on the New Jersey at the age of 19 (00:11:11) ◦ As a supply and dispersing officer, Paul arrived in San Diego to a pretty bad situation which he had to resolve which involved getting cash, equipment, food, and clothing for the men on board- they were headed to China for four months (00:15:08) Overseas & Beyond (00:15:08)  On the way, Paul mentions they had to refuel at Hawaii and Japan for several weeks; he mentions the trip was cold and torturous (00:16:40)  Paul said that he was almost killed while in China when it was Chiang Kai Shek's birthday but his rickshaw driver talked the men who held them up out of it (00:19:23) ◦ He didn't decide to make a career out of the Navy at that point as he mentions he was quite fed up with his captain at the time (00:22:00) ◦ Once he got back to San Diego, Paul decided to put in his papers; the Navy guaranteed he would get a masters degree out of it if he stayed on so he changed his mind; this was in 1947 (00:23:43) ▪ His next assignment was to join a destroyer based out of his hometown of Boston (00:24:05) ▪ At this time Paul held the rank of Lieutenant, which took him eight years to do (00:25:45) ▪ He was stationed on the USS Power at the time (00:26:13)  Paul trained at Guantanamo Bay for six months while he held the positions of supply �  and dispersing officer (00:26:58) He was on the USS Power for a year and a half; after Guantanamo, Paul says they did fleet exercises after that (00:28:22) In 1948 after the USS Power, Paul was asked where he would like to go next and told them he wanted to be stationed at a shipyard in Boston (00:28:49) Korean War & Beyond (00:31:06)  Paul arrived to the Eastern theater during the Korean War the day the United States invaded Inchon, South Korea on September 15th, 1950 (00:31:06)  He was primarily based out of Yokusuka, Japan at this time (00:32:05) ◦ Paul's future partner was one of a few hundred nurses that was flown over to Yokusuka; this was during the last week of November in 1950 (00:35:03) ◦ He mentions that the military was downsized considerably from World War II to the Korean War and says that there were only a few divisions from the Army and Marines as these divisions would be sent back to combat even after you were injured or received purple hearts if you were healthy enough to return to combat (00:37:52) ▪ Paul's brother joined the National Guard in Minnesota and was sent to fight in the Korean War; his brother lost seven platoon leaders in three months and became the sergeant major of the battalion at the age of 23- he passed away at the age of 59 from cancer due to the effects of contracting malaria while in South Korea (00:40:39) Back Home & Eastern Theater (00:41:35)  Paul became the deputy chief of petroleum logistics for the Navy while he worked in the Pentagon (00:41:35)  He served in the Pentagon for two years; he helped set up fueling stations throughout the rest of the world in case of another war breaking out (00:43:35)  Paul served on the USS Essex from June 1954 til 1956 as the aviation supply officer (00:44:53) ◦ After being stationed near Taiwan, Paul and the crew of the USS Essex were sent to Thailand as he mentioned it being a very touchy place; most of the missions were diplomatic and he mentions the natives of Thailand liked them being there (00:47:27) ◦ Between training and deployment, Paul says they lost 13 aircrafts and five pilots (00:49:40) ▪ After the Essex, Paul was the logistics and planning officer for the naval air force pacific fleet; he was stationed in San Diego, California (00:52:18) ▪ At this time, he made the rank of Lieutenant Commander (00:52:37)  Paul was stationed on Subic Bay in the Philippines; his wife and three of his children were there as well- he was stationed there from 1959 til 1961 (00:53:42)  He went to Monterey Bay Naval Postgraduate School; from there he went to the aviation supply office in Philadelphia- he did this from 1962 til 1964 (00:55:37) ◦ Paul mentions that when the Vietnam conflict finally came along he realized it was a big mistake (00:58:46) ◦ He made rank of captain and had a small staff of about 20; four of them were commanders and the rest were high ranking civilians (01:02:10) ◦ Even after Paul aired concerns about overspending on supplies in one event, the military went ahead and did it anyways (01:08:30) ▪ After one of Paul's flights to Da Nang, Vietnam was cancelled, a gentlemen at the hotel bar offered Paul up a seat on his flight (01:11:37) ▪ Paul's impression of Vietnam at that point was that the people were very �unhappy; people were getting killed for no reason over there (01:13:22) Back Home Again (01:13:50)  After Vietnam, Paul decided to leave the Navy and came back to the states to head the international logistics at the supply systems command as a primarily diplomatic job (01:14:18)  Paul looked for a civilian job and was hired as the head of information systems and became the chief deputy of social services for the state of Michigan (01:15:14) ◦ Paul's time in the service made him a person with integrity, honesty, and it gave him a great education (01:18:49) ◦ The service also taught him to ignore extraneous things and turn the other cheek (01:19:26) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_AllenP1652V Title A name given to the resource Allen, Paul (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-06-23 Description An account of the resource Paul Allen was born in 1926 in South Boston. His father served in World War I for the US Navy. Paul graduated high school at the age of 15 in 1942. Although he wanted to go to Harvard, Paul knew he would end up in the military he wound up being stationed to the battleship New Jersey as a dispersing officer where he would be the youngest officer on the ship at age 19. After a few years on a few different ships, Paul would arrive to the Eastern theater during the Korean War as he was primarily based out of Yokusuka Japan in late 1950. He later served assignments at the Pentagon and aboard the carrier USS Essex (1954-56), and later had assignments in the Philippines and at the naval base in Da Nang during the Vietnam War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Allen, Paul Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74544de1f7db4468596c9f56e2b370a4.pdf f66bca57f6f9773db231d8c10bb7817f PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Rivera Reyes Interviewers: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 1/12/2011 Runtime: 01:28:27 Biography and Description David Rivera’s family arrived to the Division and Clark Streets area in 1950 and from there in 1952, they moved to Clybourn and Halsted Streets between the Cabrini Green Housing Projects and the Lincoln Park Neighborhood. A few months later David Rivera arrived and the entire family moved to Don Orelio’s house on Dayton Street between North Avenue and Willow Street. They were brief neighbors with the Cha-Cha Jimenez family who lived downstairs from them. Not long afterwards the Rivera family bought a house across from the alley on Fremont Street, south of Willow where Bissell Street intersected. This was one of the first enclaves of Puerto Ricans that settled in Lincoln Park. The enclave connected with others later but stretched in the area from Halsted street west to Sheffield Ave., and from North Avenue to Willow Street. David’s grandfather became the neighborhood barber and David’s siblings built a homemade rollercoaster that came down the railing and stretched into the large backyard and back. It was basically a crate with roller skate wheels and each kid paid two or three cents with empty bottle refunds, for the ride. David’s nickname was Chicken Killer because he and his brothers worked at the live chicken store on North Avenue, of which the street had become the primary business area for the Latino section. He also worked with his cousin Orlando Davila on a milk truck as well as several other factories of the area. �While only 10 and 11 they were a part of the Knights which soon later Orlando organized them with others and they became a totally new group called the Young Lords; as a street group or gang in 1960. David also led the motorcycle group called the Sons of the Devil while still being the Field Marshall for the Young Lords political group. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Can you tell me your full name, and when you were born, and where you were born? DAVID RIVERA REYES: My name is David Rivera Reyes. I was born in Puerto Rico - Coamo, Puerto Rico. I was born in 1948, so I’ll be turning 70 in a couple of months. JJ: So you didn’t answer me, how was Coamo, Puerto Rico? What do you remember about Coamo? DRR: In Coamo, we used to live in the mountains in an area called Santa Catalina. It was a community where you couldn’t use a car to get up there, it can only go so far, and then you’d have to walk the rest of the way. I remember we having a community [00:01:00] well where people went and got their water, their potable water, carry it back in cans. I remember the big square cans that after they -cracker cans, Export Sodas cans, that was the thing that people used to carry their water. They would wash their dishes outside one of the windows in the sink. Their baths were either in the river or they would take water and go into the outhouse with soap and water in another smaller can, would bathe. People out there lived mostly off the land. Everybody worked the land. If you didn’t work your own land, you would work for someone else. Mostly likely you would go [00:02:00] out and cut sugar cane which was one of the main jobs that people had down there was sugar cane -- and building in cement blocks, but the majority would work their own land and sell their products in town to make a living. People that were able to save up some money and fly out after the big migration 1 �back in the ’40s, late ’40s. My parents were some that came -- I believe it was in 1950 when they came up to Chicago. It was my parents, and some uncles and some aunts. I remember that [00:03:00] they would live in a small hotel on North Avenue and Dayton -- North Avenue, Dayton, and Clybourn. There was a restaurant called The Golden Ox. In that building, there were lots of rooms for rent. A lot of them stayed there. Maybe sometimes even three, four, and five people in one small room. They would get jobs wherever they could. Mostly they got maintenance jobs, or jobs where they had to clean up after everybody or, if they were lucky, restaurant jobs. My mother was a lucky one. My mother was a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Puerto Rican woman. She got lucky, she got a job at a called Carbit Paint Company [00:04:00] right off of North Avenue by California. JJ: Carbon Paint -- DRR: Carbit. Carbit Paint Company. She was paid to put labels on cans. I believe she started at about $0.75 to $0.80 an hour. She worked in that company until she retired. But in that company, she was able, because of her hard work, was able to put a few of my uncles to work there, my aunts to work there, other people that would come in from Puerto Rico looking for jobs, a lot of them ended up working at Carbit Paint Company and all through her hands. JJ: Where was this located? DRR: The company was on North Avenue, [00:05:00] but they got bigger, so they moved over on Kingston by the railroad tracks. There they bought a big factory and they would make their own paints there. And then the North Avenue location 2 �became the actual store where people go and buy their paint. I remember me working at that paint company myself when I was 17. JJ: A lot of Puerto Ricans? DRR: Pardon. JJ: A lot of Puerto Ricans? DRR: A lot of Puerto Ricans. I would say 50 percent of the labor -- or even more so -practically all the laborers were Puerto Ricans, and the majority of the Puerto Ricans were from our small town in Puerto Rico, Coamo. It was more like a family thing. [00:06:00] But they were hard workers and they were liked very much -- except my father. My father worked in a lumber company. JJ: So what was your father’s name and your mother’s name? And your siblings. DRR: My father’s name was Franciso, my mother’s name was Angelica, but they called her Angie, or, as we call her, [Las Halo?]. We also had my grandfather, Gregorio Ortiz, and my grandmother, Sofia Ortiz. But my grandfather was a man of all trades. That was a man that I learned to admire. Soft-spoken, a man of few words, he was a professional barber, professional carpenter, cabinet-maker, [00:07:00] instrument-maker, he would build his own guitars and all kinds of instruments. He was very professional at what he did, and that’s how he made his living. As a matter of fact, [he who worked back?] for himself doing this actually did better than a lot of people that worked in factories, and especially married to my grandma because she used to take every penny she had and put it away which was good because it actually allowed my mother to be one of the first Puerto Ricans in the neighborhood to be able to literally buy her own house. 3 �And she bought it on Fremont Street right over there by crooked Bissell. Matter of fact, the address over there was 1705 North Fremont [00:08:00] Street, a house that had four apartments, and she would rent the apartments. And my mom was a very strong woman which made us -- we became a little -- you would say little better off families in the neighborhood. But from there, a lot of them took off, and eventually a few of them bought their own buildings, their own houses. And this is in the Lincoln Park area, right on the outskirts of the Lincoln Park area. JJ: So (inaudible) from there, did you come from -- from what house? DRR: Well, when they first came, actually, they lived around 63rd and Halsted. [00:09:00] From 63rd and Halsted, they moved down to around 43rd and Halsted. JJ: What year? DRR: I would say 1950-1951. By 1952, they had moved out to the Lincoln Park area over on North Avenue and Halsted, Clybourn. By this time, 1953, we went to school. I started going to school in 1953. I was going to Mulligan School on Sheffield, so were my brothers and my sisters. JJ: So how many brothers and sisters and what are their names? DRR: I had one sister [00:10:00] called Damari, my brother, Nelson, my brother, Jose, and my brother, Selsa, and myself. That’s where I can say I have all my real childhood memories. JJ: At Mulligan? 4 �DRR: At Mulligan, on Bissell and Dayton, on Fremont and Bissell. Even though they run parallel, Bissell -- we call it crooked Bissell because it took a turn and it ran into -JJ: What kind of memories? DRR: Fun memories. That’s when we went outside, played with our friends, building skateboards out of two by four’s and old roller-skates and using an old crate for it, [00:11:00] and putting handles on it, and dressing it up with bottle caps. Building bicycles out of parts that we found. I remember we found a tire, we needed a tire, and it had a bubble in it, so we put black electrical tape all around it. So we drove 10, 20 miles an hour on that bike, and all along it would go bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, (laughter) down the street. At night, we would play games and go to the play lot, play baseball -- mostly stick ball. We would play stick ball on the street. It was a fun time growing up. Wearing our little Davy Crockett t-shirts and our cap pistols playing war. JJ: So Davy Crockett was a big person at that time? DRR: Oh, Davy Crockett [00:12:00] was our hero. Davy Crockett -JJ: I actually had a Davy Crockett hat. DRR: Oh, yeah, the little hat with the tail, the mask of the Lone Ranger, Zorro, The Cisco Kid, all became our heroes. Those were the programs that we watched. We had a lot of channels. All four of them: Channel 2, Channel 9, Channel 7, and Channel 5. And Channel 11 you had to pay for. Those were wonderful memories. The only bad part about there was that being from a different country, a different culture, we couldn’t go into every store that we wanted to. [00:13:00] 5 �We would be told to get out. Or if we went to a hamburger stand, we would be told, “We don’t serve your kind.” JJ: You saw that? DRR: Yes. Actually, lived it. JJ: How did you see it? Give me an example. DRR: Well, I just told you. We were not allowed to go in there. I didn’t even think that it was racism, I just figured it was -- we weren’t allowed in there, and we weren’t allowed in there. What I was told, “When an adult tells you no, it was no.” You didn’t speak back to an adult. You had to respect an adult no matter who it was. That’s how we were brought up. We were brought up under the strength of a chancleta and a good leather belt. That’s how -JJ: The shoe? The chancleta? DRR: Oh, that chancleta. Yeah, the almighty chancleta. [00:14:00] It had a lot of power. You could loud mouth all you want, but when grandma took out that chancleta, you shut up. (laughs) But I guess I never realized it until later on in my -- as I got a little older what it really was. I just thought, “You can’t go in there, you can’t go in there. They don’t want you in there, they don’t want you in there.” In my neighborhood, it was mostly Latino, some Blacks, and the whites that were there, now I call them poor whites -- Appalachian whites. They were treated by everybody else just as bad as we were. So since we all played in the street, we didn’t see no difference, we just played with everybody and [00:15:00] everybody played with us. But now, as we started to move out of the neighborhood away from Mulligan School, started going to Newberry School, 6 �some of us went to Newberry School, some of us -- I got sick to where I couldn’t walk very well, so I would get bused to school, to a school called Spalding on Washington and Ashland. It was a parochial school because I had to walk on crutches. Now, I was there for about three years after I left Mulligan. When I got out of there, it was 1961. In 1961, I started hanging around [00:16:00] with the other kids that -- I let go of the crutches, so I was able to go out. And my cousin, Orlando, and Lupe, and Hector, and Blas -JJ: So your cousin was Orlando Davila? DRR: Orlando Davila. JJ: The one that founded the Young Lords street gang. DRR: Yeah. JJ: That’s your cousin that -- DRR: Yeah, Orlando Davila would work with us -JJ: And Lupe and his brothers -- DRR: Yeah, they’re from the same town we were in in Coamo. JJ: Oh, he’s from Coamo, too. DRR: Yeah, we all -- our parents all came up at the same time. JJ: Did they live near you? DRR: Yeah. JJ: Where did they live? DRR: They lived on Bissell just north of Willow. Yeah, between Willow -JJ: That’s where Orlando lived? DRR: Yeah. 7 �JJ: Okay. What do you remember of him? Do you remember anything? DRR: Oh, I remember everything of him. He was the third of four boys. He had [00:17:00] a sister named Myrna. His father, Lupe, and his mother Mercedes. His mother’s name was Mercedes. His older brother was Blas, and there was Hector, and then there was Orlando, and then there was Lupe. And Orlando and Lupe were the ones that used to hang around with us because they were the younger ones. I remember Hector, it was in the ’50s, late ’50s, when we heard the news that Hector had died. I don’t know all the details, but they found him in a chair, and he was dead. I remember when they buried him, Orlando stepping up to me and saying, [00:18:00] “Does that hole look six feet deep?” I looked at him, I said, “Man, I don’t know.” He goes, “Yeah, because they say they gotta be six feet.” I says, “Well, I really don’t know.” But that was devastating to them. JJ: So Orlando, I mean he’s the founder of the gang. So what type of person was he when he was younger? A mean guy or did he -- DRR: Orlando was not a mean guy. Him and I hung out a lot. We would walk to school together, we would get out of school together, we would go to the A&A together, we would go to the play lot together, we walked home together. You know, we were close because we lived close to each other. We even worked in [00:19:00] a milk truck together. JJ: What did you guys talk about? What did you talk about together? DRR: We talked about anything that was going on, like, for example, when he was working for the milk truck -- Orlando was a worker. Orlando always had a job. When he wasn’t at the milk truck, he was on his bicycle delivering newspapers. 8 �He always had a paper route. You know what? I never remember Orlando backing out of anything or from anybody. Orlando was a warrior. He was a softspoken, [00:20:00] a kid of very few words, but he was a warrior. And he loved his family and he loved his friends, but he stood up for what he believed in. And I believe that that’s why we looked at him as a leader because he was a fighter. Like I said, as we started branching out away from the little neighborhood, we started running into different other problems which was gang problems. Like our parents would go to Saint Teresa’s Church. When we went, we had problems because you had a group called Corp which was actually -- came out of the German Bugle Corp. Saint Michael’s -- not Saint Teresa’s, Saint Michael’s. [00:21:00] And they also had, in the neighborhood there was a street called Mohawk, so they had a group called the Mohawk Boys. And down around Dickens and Halsted was a group called Roma’s, they used to hang around Roma’s restaurant and pizzeria. And we had problems with them because the hot dog stand that we used to like to go to was Uncle Frank’s over there on Halsted and Dickens, and just down the street was the Roma’s restaurant, so that caused a lot of conflicts, a lot of fights. And that’s when we started grouping up as gangs. Now, I remember some of the first gangs were [00:22:00] the Black Eagles, the Paragons, the Imperial Aces, the Continentals which was the one that Carlos Flores belonged to, and my brother, Selsa, belonged to -- the Trojans, and then there was the Young Knights which were the ones that Orlando put together which weeks later became the Young Lords. I remember the first time that they became the Young Lords, we took white paint and painted 9 �the Young Lords name on Burling Street, right next to the border [00:23:00] play lot because we were declaring that our turf, the playground over there on Armitage and Burling. Where at that time, they had just finished building the new Arnold Upper Grade Center, that was the summer of 1962. Summer of 1962, they finished building the Arnold Upper Grade Center right across the street from Waller High School, and it was supposed to open for class at the end of ’62 and the beginning of ’63. We got t-shirts, we had black and purple sweaters which we got the colors [00:24:00] from watching the movie West Side Story. JJ: Where’d you watch it at? DRR: We watched it at the Biograph Theater. I remember the day we went to watch it, we got into a big old fight over there because the kids from Roma’s, and the Mohawk Boys, and the Corp were all there, and so were the Young Lords, so were the Paragons, the Imperial Aces, the Black Eagles -- the Black Eagles was the gang that almost all the other kids looked up to because they were like the older kids, 17, 18-year old kids. And we were just really young, we were only like 14, 15-years old. [00:25:00] A lot of gang fights. JJ: So how did the fights start? At the Biograph? DRR: At the Biograph, I really don’t know. All I know is that everybody started running, and everybody was kicking, everybody was pulling out knives, everybody was taking their belts off to use as whips, popcorn was flyin’ all over the place, soda was flyin’ all over the place. The Puerto Rican kids on one side, the white kids on the other side, everybody else was terrified. All I know is that we ran out of there laughin’. I remember stopping at the alleyway on the way down Lincoln 10 �Avenue, and that’s where [00:26:00] -- as a matter of fact, it was Orlando who pointed it out to me and said, “Hey, this is the alley they had killed John Dillinger at.” I said, “Yeah, but let’s get out of here.” So we ran down that alley all the way to Austin Street and away from there. Later that night, we got an attack by bottles from a car that drove past the play lot, and we were chasing them, and I think they were the Mohawk Boys who did that. In school, it was the same thing because they used to go to the same schools we did. JJ: They went to Mulligan? DRR: Not Mulligan, we were already going to Arnold Upper Grade Center, and some of them were first year Waller High School. Newberry -- I think he [00:27:00] used to go to Newberry. I remember my cousin, Arsenio, starting the Trojans group. Then from there, we started hanging out -- got a little older, we started hanging out -JJ: So why did they have -- like you said, your cousin started the Trojans, and they had the Black Eagles, and they had these other -- Paragon and that. Why were people starting these groups? DRR: Well, at first the groups used to get together even without a name because it was actually for protection. You did not want to walk to school by yourself. Most of the time, you walked by yourself, you ended up getting chased, by yourself or beat up. JJ: [00:28:00] Why? Why were they chasing you and beating you? DRR: Well, how should I say? I hate to say it this way but the white groups at the time felt that we were invading their territory. 11 �JJ: The gangs? DRR: The gangs, the Puerto Ricans itself. The Puerto Ricans. Remember, the Lincoln Park area was almost all white. When the Puerto Ricans started moving in, and then the Blacks started coming in from around North Avenue and Sedgwick or the Cabrini-Green projects because they couldn’t all go to Cooley, they felt threatened. They felt their neighborhoods were being taken over [00:29:00] and they wanted to fight for their territory. As far as they were concerned, it was their play lots, their restaurants, their park. And they figured, “We beat them up, they’ll go away.” JJ: So the white groups were worried about their territory, but they were attacking all the Puerto Ricans? DRR: Yeah, they were attacking anybody that didn’t belong there. JJ: Is that correct or -- I don’t want to put words in your mouth. DRR: What? JJ: I don’t want to put words in your mouth. So they were concerned, the white groups, about their gang territory, but they were attacking every Puerto Rican. DRR: Yeah, they didn’t know the difference. JJ: So they didn’t want to attack a gang, they were attacking Puerto Ricans. Is that correct or no? Or were attacking the gangs? DRR: [00:30:00] They were attacking gangs because it was teenagers against teenagers, though when older Puerto Ricans would walk down the street, they would get mugged or talked down to. A lot of people didn’t pay attention, they didn’t understand what the hell they were saying anyway. 12 �JJ: When you say older, do you mean teenagers? DRR: No, when I say older it’s your mom, your dad, your grandpa, your grandma. JJ: The moms and dads were mugged. DRR: I remember my grandfather, for example, coming out of Del Farm’s over there on Halsted and North Avenue, and how he would say that a couple of white kids would run past him and knock his bags off his hands. It was just, “Here’s an old Puerto Rican man, let’s knock his groceries out for the fun of it.” [00:31:00] They just became like natural enemies. Yeah, you know what? It’d be safe to say that it just became a racial thing because to them everybody was Puerto Rican. You could’ve been from Mexico, but if you talked Spanish, you were Puerto Rican. It’s like today everybody’s Mexican. If you speak Spanish, you’re Mexican because that’s everybody focus, on Mexico. The thing was that the groups banned could actually fight for turf, to actually fight [00:32:00] for a place to be able to go and hang out like the playground. Or when we aren’t allowed or told we couldn’t go to North Avenue beach -- every time you went down to North Avenue beach, there was always a big fight. The Puerto Rican teens, they used to go down there to play baseball, were told to get out or they couldn’t play there after they were told that they could. We were fighting for the right to live here is what you were actually doing. At the time, we didn’t see it as what we see it today, but yeah. [00:33:00] And all these groups, it was because of different friends you had, different age groups. For example, a Young Lord couldn’t become a Black Eagle because they were too young. The Black Eagles were 13 �older kids. The Imperial Aces were older kids. I’m trying to think of some other names. JJ: Was there a lot of drugs at that time? Because today the gangs are into drugs. DRR: No, they weren’t into drugs. The older ones did smoke marijuana. They used to call it reefer back then. They would smoke marijuana. Marijuana came into the city in the early [00:34:00] to mid-’60s, that I remember. I remember that’s when I started smoking when I was about 14, 15. I’m talking about cigarettes, and some of my friends were already smoking marijuana cigarettes. I don’t remember them using any heavier type of drugs. Now -JJ: But I meant at that time when you first started fighting with the white gangs? DRR: No, not at that time. Then when the Young Lords themselves moved to their hangout from Larrabee and Armitage, Halsted and Armitage, or Dickens and Halsted over there, [00:35:00] we started hanging out on Leland and North Avenue. JJ: Wieland. DRR: Oh Wieland and North Avenue. And over there near Wieland and North Avenue was a restaurant called the OK Corral, and that’s where we used to hang out at. By now, there was -- I’m looking for (inaudible). JJ: Need a break? DRR: Yeah, a break. (break in audio) DRR: But like I was talking about, we were -- we moved down to North Avenue and Wieland. The OK Corral -- because our hang out became Old Town in Chicago. 14 �JJ: What does that look like? OK Corral? DRR: The OK Corral was just a restaurant. We used to hang out there, [00:36:00] and everybody was meeting there like we used to meet at the old A&A restaurant. JJ: A&A restaurant, where was that at? DRR: That was at Armitage and Larrabee. JJ: And what did that look like? DRR: That was just a small restaurant with a counter, about three or four chairs in it, and the kids used to go in there and hang out. I remember Mary, the lady that first bought it, she couldn’t take it because she liked the kids, but the kids didn’t allow good business to come in, so she sold it to Octavio. Octavio let us hang out, but him, too, had the same problem. We were hanging in there so other folks wouldn’t go in there and eat, so eventually it just closed down. Same thing with the OK corral. [00:37:00] Now, by this time, we’re 16, 17-years old. I’ve already quit school. JJ: Were there more Puerto Ricans at that time moving in or no? DRR: A lot more Puerto Ricans. JJ: What year was this? DRR: We’re talking about 1964-’65, ’66. JJ: Why were they moving in? DRR: Why were they moving in? JJ: Yeah, what was going on that a lot of Puerto Ricans were moving in? DRR: It was just a Puerto Rican neighborhood. The people that came in, you know, that’s where people went to. They search out their own people, actually. 15 �Chicago’s very diverse, you know, everybody had like their own neighborhoods. I remember there, [00:38:00] for example -JJ: So it was segregated, they had their own neighborhoods. DRR: Right, their own neighborhoods. JJ: It was diverse, it had different peoples. DRR: Exactly. By this time, though, the Puerto Rican population now is moving east of Halsted and east of Larrabee. Now, you were going into what used to be considered, you know, a non-Latino area. You only saw -JJ: So now the Puerto Ricans are invading. DRR: Exactly. So the other groups are feeling like they were being invaded, exactly. JJ: The people felt that? DRR: Yeah. At the same time now, during this time, besides the teenagers, there was a lot of things going on also with the Latinos -- [00:39:00] the parents. Some of the parents are now doing a little bit better financially even though they are only $1.10, $1.20 an hour, they were doing -- other things were going on. What was going on? I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of a group called the Hacha Viejas. JJ: Yes. In English, what -- DRR: The Hacha Viejas? Old Axes. They were involved in other things. Now some of the Puerto Rican people are opening up stores, they’re opening up bars -- still working in factories, but they’re opening up these businesses. I never understood why. I figured they work hard for it, but later on I found out that it was the numbers -- the lotería, numeros. [00:40:00] Numero lotería china they called it. 16 �JJ: Chinese? DRR: Mm-hmm. It was just like today’s lotto, but only it was clandestine, it was underground. You sold numbers, and people were making money from it. Also, the marijuana business was growing. Besides the marijuana business growing, it was the Vietnam war. The Vietnam war was creating a new kind of animal, one that was always there but never seen as much, and that animal -- I call it animal, but -- for lack of a word, but the heroin addict. I moved away from the Young Lords [00:41:00] in about 1965, and got together with my cousin, Gilbert, Santiago, and started a group called The Sons of the Devil motorcycle club. I was with them when -JJ: Where did you start them at? What streets? DRR: At Saint Teresa’s Church, actually. (laughs) Actually, it was Saint Teresa’s Church. They called themselves the (inaudible) at first, and then they became The Sons of the Devil motorcycle club. There were only about four or five of us. But later on, that’s when Cha-Cha got locked up around that time. He came out with something new, and that was a red book by [00:42:00] Mao Zedong, Stalin, Lenin. It was very confusing to me at first because communism -- I didn’t see it as communism. I understood commune as people getting together. By now, there’s a lot of communes going because a lot of hippies, and people living together, and the free love thing came out, and everything. What Cha-Cha was talking about now was liberation. He was talking about independence. He was talking about self-determination. And I went back to work with the Young Lords -or to the Young Lords, and was being re-educated with these things, [00:43:00] 17 �reading these books and different type of mentality, different way of looking at things. Me, I always saw it as my people needs help. This is my people, this is what we’re gonna to fight for. And it became a fight. It became a war. Not like the war that my parents were fighting. My parents were fighting a whole different type of war. JJ: What were they fighting? DRR: They were fighting the war of keeping their dignity. JJ: What do you mean? DRR: Dignity as far as human beings. Not being mistreated or looked down at, less in their jobs and jobs that turn good hard-working men to start thinking less of themselves then to turn to alcohol, and wife-beating, [00:44:00] and child-beating -- to be able to still feel like men. It was something that was epidemic. Practically all the people were having problems. JJ: How were they doing that? DRR: How were they doing the -JJ: Your parents, how were they keeping dignity? DRR: Oh, no. My father was one that fell into it. My father became a drinker, a drunk. Every Friday night, yes, he brought home what he had to bring home, but he also brought home my mother a war. My mother paid the consequences of all his hardships and the things that he was going through as a man or as a person. It happened to a lot of good men like that. Meantime, now, this is causing problems between fathers and sons. 18 �JJ: [00:45:00] So he was going through some things and it was impacting her? It was affecting her? DRR: Well, it was impacting her because she was the one that was getting beat up. JJ: Oh, so he was beating her up. DRR: She was the one that had to go to work with a black eye, she was the one that always had to put up with the fact that she was told that she was nothing but dirt. Why? I really don’t know. But my mother was a warrior. She kept going. JJ: What did your mother do? How did she respond? DRR: By this time, two of my brothers went into the military. One went into the Air Force which was Nelson, Jose [00:46:00] went into the U.S. Army, 101st Airborne Division. By this time, it was 1967-68. I came home, and I literally moved my mother -- my father went to work, and I went and spoke with my brother, Selsa, and we went to talk to Luis Rivera who owned the store over there on Willow and Halsted, it was a Spanish store. He loaned us the pick-up truck, and we actually found a small apartment on Larrabee Street, and moved my mother out before my father came home from work. That’s how we pulled my mother out of that mess, together with my grandparents. By this time, things were going on in the neighborhood. JJ: So were other men doing the same thing? DRR: [00:47:00] Oh, yeah. A lot of the men. JJ: Do you know of anybody else that was doing that? DRR: I don’t want to mention names because -JJ: Don’t mention names, but can you give me an idea of what it was like? 19 �DRR: Oh, yes. My cousins were going through the same thing. My friends were going through the same thing with their parents. JJ: Why do you think men were going through that? DRR: In Puerto Rico, they went and worked a hard day’s labor and maybe made a dollar or two a day -- a couple of dollars a day, but they took pride in what they did, and men were looked at because their word was their bond. He didn’t have to have a dollar in his pocket, [00:48:00] if he had his word, he had everything. Over here, their word meant something among themselves. Outside their groups, their word was nothing. “I will pay you next week,” meant nothing. They didn’t have the education to get a higher paying job. So over here, to be able to survive, they had to take shit jobs which allowed the other people with better jobs to look down upon them, so now they’re feeling lesser. JJ: So they’re being treated lesser, looked down on. DRR: Lesser, and they went home and just took it out on their own. [00:49:00] It’s just something that it was a great vicious circle. JJ: Were the women getting any help from anything? DRR: Oh, no because if you remember, it wasn’t until the early, mid-’60s that -- you didn’t see no Latino policeman. You didn’t see no Black policeman, you didn’t see Latino firemen, you didn’t see no Black firemen. You didn’t see Latino or Black proprietors until then. It was into the later ’60s that groups like the Young Lords organization, and groups like [00:50:00] later on the Young Lords party, groups like the Comancheros, and the Patriots was the white group, and the Brown Berets, the Black Panther Party. -- it was when groups like this came out 20 �saying, “We have rights. We deserve to be able to this school to get the education we need.” JJ: So that was the older women, right? Our mothers and fathers, that’s what you’re saying. But what about the Young Lordettes? [00:51:00] How did that affect them? (inaudible) Queens? DRR: The Young Lordettes were women which actually were Young Lords, they became the Young Lordettes. When the Young Lords became political, the women became -JJ: (inaudible). DRR: Right, because they were women who were fighting for their rights as women. JJ: I mean before they became political. DRR: Before they became political? JJ: Right. DRR: Before they became political, they were just like any other women. JJ: Getting beat up, too? DRR: Yeah. Just all the gang members pulling their girlfriend’s hair or slapping them. JJ: So the gang members were doing that to (inaudible)? DRR: Definitely. That was their MO, you know? JJ: Okay, so now you’re saying that that [00:52:00] made some changes after the Young Lords became more political? Is that what you’re saying? DRR: Exactly. There was a big change. JJ: How did that happen? DRR: The change was that the women were fighting for their rights, their rights to -- 21 �JJ: What women? I mean which woman was -- DRR: For example, Angie. I admire Angie. I love that woman. One of the strongest women I ever met. She was one that fought for women’s rights, to be equals to their men, not -JJ: She was a Young Lord? DRR: She was a Young Lordette, yes. If you want to call her a Young Lordette after they became political. But she was married to Pancho Lind which was one of the comrades who fell in this, [00:53:00] I would call it, war for civil rights. Her husband was a fallen comrade just like Manuel Ramos, a fallen comrade -- Fred Hamilton, Mark Clark. JJ: So what do you remember the women doing around that time with Angie? What was she looking at (inaudible)? DRR: They were educating the other women in the neighborhood. JJ: Educating, what do you mean? DRR: Educating women in the neighborhood as far as their rights to stand up as women, that they had rights, too, that they didn’t have to take abuse, that they didn’t have to walk underneath or behind, that they were there to walk next to their man. They had equal rights as anybody else and any man there. And Angie [00:54:00] was one person who gave strength to a lot of these women. God bless her. JJ: So how did the gangs take that? DRR: Well, at first, the gangs didn’t think it was too good. Like, “What do you mean? Go make me some coffee,” “Go make it yourself.” “What do you mean go make 22 �it myself?” A lot of things changed. It got to the point where, “Hey, can you make me some coffee?” “Sure, honey, I’ll make you some coffee -- or, “You serve it,” or something. But they went because they wanted to go, not because they were told to go. You learned to treat (laughs) your woman as an equal, and she was a comrade in arms. JJ: So in the Young Lords, they learned to do that? DRR: Oh, the Young Lords did that. JJ: So these are the same Young Lordettes, but now there’s some change -- what kind of changes [00:55:00] did you see? DRR: Oh, I saw a lot of changes. Their attitudes, sure. JJ: I mean you were there with the Young Lordettes when you were a Young Lord. DRR: I saw changes as far as -- and you know what’s funny? Is that a lot of them changed, but there were a few that did not. There were a few that were still accepted being told -- or being submissive to their man. Others were submissive to their man because that’s what they wanted to be not because they had to be, but they also stood for their rights. You know what? The relationships even got stronger because the women actually respected their -- they listened to their man because they respected that man as a comrade, and as an equal, and not as a master. [00:56:00] And those are the things that changed. They weren’t being seen like that anymore. They were women, they were taught to stand up if they were abused or beaten which is what actually really started the big push on battered women. 23 �DRR: But I mean within the Young Lords. What did you see the -- difference? Did you see any difference or there wasn’t any difference? JJ: I saw a lot of difference. The difference was at first, the guys used to hang out on the corner. The girls were there if their boyfriend was there. If their boyfriend wasn’t there, she ain’t gonna hang out because it was disrespectful. How they talked to each other, how they talked to the comrades, or to their friends. [00:57:00] After this, it didn’t matter. The guys were hanging out, the girls wanted to hang out, they came out to hang out. It was okay now. It wasn’t, “You don’t do that to your man,” type of thing. Changes to the point of -- what can I tell you? I can’t really explain it, all I can tell you is that the difference was they were no longer underlings, they were equals in every sense of the word, and you learned to respect them as women and as a comrade. And they were there to help you and fight with you side by side for everything that we were fighting for because while we were doing this, we were fighting. [00:58:00] It was a war. It was a war for our rights. It was a war to be able to say, “This is ours.” We have the right to education, we have the right to choose the school we want to go to. We have the right to be able to become who we want to become. It’s a right that we didn’t have, and it was that group of kids, that half of them didn’t even understand what the hell was going on, all they knew was that they had rights and that’s what they were fighting for. And the Young Lords organization was one that took it there and above and beyond to the recognition of not only in one little spot in Chicago called the Lincoln Park area, but it spread out to New York, Pennsylvania, 24 �California, and it got to be known [00:59:00] around the world as a movement for the rights of the human being. JJ: And so your parents came in the ’50s, and they settled around, you said, Clybourn and North Avenue? DRR: Yes, North Avenue. JJ: Dayton Street, right around there. That little area, how did that build up? So that means that there was a few Puerto Ricans moving into that area. DRR: Yeah, the Puerto Ricans started moving in -JJ: How did Lincoln Park look? DRR: -- the mid-’50s. JJ: Yeah, how did Lincoln Park look? DRR: They started moving in from like 63rd and Halsted down to around Clark and Division, and they kept moving further north, and they came around the western part of the Lincoln Park area west of Halsted. [01:00:00] And then after the mid’60s, they started moving towards east of Halsted, and started actually -- Halsted and Armitage, all those big tenement buildings, Sheffield and Armitage, Racine and Armitage, that area. The high school became more Latino-populated with kids. JJ: Waller High School? DRR: Waller High School, mostly. Lakeview High School. The Lincoln Park area is what you would call a few years ago the Humboldt Park area. That’s where the majority of the Puerto Ricans lived until the late ’60s [01:01:00] the Young Lords were fighting against urban renewal. 25 �JJ: So the neighborhood grew into Puerto Ricans, it became (inaudible) all over the place. DRR: Mostly Puerto Ricans, exactly. JJ: When did you start noticing the change, and then what was taking place with other families there? When did you start noticing? We’re going the opposite way. (laughs) DRR: 1962, 1963 -- ’61-’62, that’s when the Lincoln Park area started to flourish. When Arnold Upper Grade Center opened up again in the school year of ’62 and ’63, by this time more Puerto Ricans had moved in, more families had moved in. By this time, you already had [01:02:00] like restaurants, small restaurants, Hispanic restaurants and grocery stores like Luis Rivera’s store over on Willow and Halsted. You had the stores over on Armitage and Halsted. So it was growing to the point where it was home. Actually, it was our neighborhood. It was the Puerto Rican neighborhood, really. A lot of other stores moved out. [01:03:00] But with it, came the resistance because now there was not only the white gangs to deal with, now it was politics. You’re talkin’ about McCutcheon, for example. JJ: McCutcheon, who is he? DRR: The alderman. What was his name? Big Jim or -- I forgot their names. They were more like mafias types that had to do with the government. JJ: McCutcheon, alderman? DRR: Well, McCutcheon was the one whose office was blown up over there on -JJ: You mean other organizations? DRR: Yeah, other organizations. I can’t really -- 26 �JJ: The Lincoln Park neighborhood association. People like that? DRR: People like that, yeah. It had to do more with gangster type [01:04:00] organizations. JJ: But they weren’t gangsters, they were -- DRR: Business people. JJ: They were business people. DRR: Yeah. No gangsters, (laughs) (inaudible) people. JJ: (inaudible) gangsters. I know that there were some little gangsters at Bissell Realty and the real estate company. DRR: Exactly. JJ: They were like gangsters. The real estate companies were gangsters. DRR: That’s what I always believed. JJ: How would you believe that? DRR: I always believed that because it was just the way they carried out their business, the way they -JJ: Real estate people look like gangsters to you? DRR: Mm-hmm. JJ: They’re supposed to be business, but you thought they looked like gangsters. DRR: They looked like gangsters to me. They looked like gangsters to me, unless I was stereotyping ’em. I’m not sure, I might have been. But to me, they were all in the same club. [01:05:00] And I’m talking about the real estate people, the aldermen, and everybody else in that. JJ: They looked like gangsters to you? 27 �DRR: Yeah. JJ: They didn’t look like legitimate business people? DRR: Well, they might have been legitimate because they had the paperwork. I don’t know. To me, it was all a front. JJ: Are you just saying that because you became political? Or are you just saying that because you felt it? DRR: No. I looked at them, and it was like if I was sittin’ on this side on the street looking at our group, only they were a lot better organized, that’s why. JJ: So it was like another gang -- gangsters. DRR: [01:06:00] Yeah, but better. JJ: Okay, so it wasn’t business people like you go to Walmart or -- DRR: No, definitely not. JJ: It was not like that. Okay, so we’re dealing at Lincoln Park -- we’re dealing with gangsters. DRR: Exactly. We were dealing with [other things?]. JJ: And Fat Larry (inaudible). DRR: Fat Larry, yeah. JJ: He was clearly a gangster (inaudible). So you’re saying the rest of the real estate people -- DRR: I believed they were all tied up in all of that because I’ll tell you, you think, for example, anybody that ever came to help us, let’s say -- and I’m talking about, for example, [01:07:00] when we took over People’s Church. Everybody expected 28 �Reverend Johnson to kick us out and turn against us, but instead he decided to be with us and help us. Weeks later, he was stabbed to death with his wife. JJ: Who do you think did that? DRR: Who do I think, personally? JJ: Yeah, personally. DRR: Personally think that? I think they were the ones that did it. Those gangster types because they figured they get rid of him, they get rid of us because us being there was causing them a whole lot of trouble. Their businesses, they couldn’t run ’em as they’re supposed to. People didn’t want to buy houses there. [01:08:00] We became like bad news. And, remember, what they wanted was rich people or people with money to buy those properties because that’s why they wanted us out of there. But we were resistant. And definitely they couldn’t go out and kill half of us which they did because they did kill a few of us. No matter who pulled the trigger, there’s quite a few of us that died in those battles. And I named some names before. Manuel, Pancho, Mark, Fred -- you keep on naming ’em -- Martin Luther King, Malcom X, all these were killed in this war, [01:09:00] and a lot of times others were tried. For me, how did they tear us apart? The biggest weapon they ever used was drugs. And those drugs were not introduced by our own people. In the immediate sight, yes; behind the scenes, no. They couldn’t beat us with guns, they couldn’t beat us with force because we fought back, the same way we fought back the day of the fiesta at the church. JJ: Tell me about that fiesta. What was that all about? 29 �DRR: We were celebrating People’s Church, and we were having a big fiesta right outside the church, and we had asked permission to [01:10:00] McCutcheon, as a matter of fact, to give us permission to block Dayton Street on Armitage and Dayton Street at the alley. That way everybody that lives on that side of the church could come down Dayton and pull out on the alleys and go up to the other streets. After they said yes, they said no. After they gave us the permission, they said no, and they send out the storm troopers. The storm troopers came, they arrested four or five of our guys that went out to get some gasoline for the generators, and you -- they were looking for you, so you had to go into the church, and everything going was crazy. But there must have been 200-300 policeman out there in riot gear, [01:11:00] plus the ones parked at the high school waiting, hundreds more. JJ: Oh, so they had some at the high school. DRR: Yeah, they had a lot of them. So that’s when you told me to go out there and speak because the captain wanted to -- or the commander wanted to tell us to break it up. And I did. And after him and I spoke, he ended up -- it was better to close the street, give us our wish, let us have our party, leave a few of his policeman there, if we promised to clean up and throw all the garbage away afterwards. And I gave him my word that we would, he blocked off the streets, [01:12:00] he blocked it off at the alley and on Armitage, and we had a wonderful party. JJ: And a victory for the community. DRR: Yeah, a big party for the community, yeah. And I got to hand it -- 30 �JJ: That’s the one that’s on the website of Grand Valley State University, that block party, that’s on there. DRR: That block party? JJ: That’s (inaudible). DRR: Oh, that’s (inaudible). JJ: So what other things were you involved in with the Young Lords once they became political? DRR: My job? JJ: Once they became political, what other events do you remember? DRR: Well, I went to speak at a few universities and picked up donations. I was involved in the People’s Park. JJ: What was that? What was that about? DDR: The People’s Park [01:13:00] was when they came down to tear up the -- they tore down the tenement buildings, and then they decided they were gonna start doing the groundwork, and we got hundreds of people to come that one night and we formed a human chain right in front of Halsted and Armitage and blocked the bulldozers from getting on the land. And then the next day, all through that night, we worked moving rocks and things and cleaning up the lot. And the next day, somebody donated a jungle gym and some swings and we made it into People’s Park, a playground. And so that was a stand because we stood out all night. [01:14:00] I remember doing camp fires out there with the people. I was also involved with the Venceremos Brigade. JJ: Yeah, talk about that. What was that about? 31 �DRR: I was put in charge of looking for volunteers to go cut sugar cane in Cuba. JJ: Why were you doing that? DRR: Because Castro was calling it the harvest of the ten million (inaudible), [la zafra de los diez millones?]. They were trying to get at least ten million (inaudible) sugar. Not only with their own macheteros, they were using macheteros from here, volunteers. And 1970 was the first group, 1971 -- [01:15:00] I believe it was ’70 I went to Cuba. We went down there with about 400 strong to cut sugar cane from daylight to sundown to help them with their harvest. Also, my activities with the Young Lords, my activities with the other countries also got me into a committee called (inaudible) that took me to -- got myself invited to China, and I went to Mainland China as a guest of the Chinese government. JJ: How long were you there? DRR: I was there for about three weeks. That was in 1971. As a matter of fact, while I was there, [01:16:00] that’s when Hoover died. J. Edgar Hoover died while we were sittin’ in China because China was celebrating. They actually celebrated. (laughs) I became very political and got to be well-known. And the things that I did do, like speak at the universities, what happened at the church -JJ: And your title in the Young Lords, what was it? DRR: What? JJ: What was your title? DRR: My title with the Young Lords? National field marshal. And you gave me that title from the beginning, and to this day I wear it. I’ve been national field marshal for now what? Fifty years? (laughter) 32 �JJ: So your family, what happened after Lincoln Park? DRR: [01:17:00] After Lincoln Park, well, my mother and father got divorced. My mother bought a house in Lincoln Park. It was funny because we bought that house for $24,500. JJ: Where was it at? DRR: On Howe Street. Yep, $24,500. And when she passed away, they sold that house for $110,000. That house a couple of years ago when we went down there just on a memory lane trip, I think it was going for about a million and a quarter. Same house. JJ: So the property went up through the years. DRR: (laughs) It really went up. JJ: Are there any Puerto Ricans -- DRR: Very, very, very few. JJ: today at Lincoln Park? DRR: Very few. JJ: [01:18:00] After the years went by, what do you think that they were trying to do in Lincoln Park? Why did they want to kick out the Puerto Ricans? DRR: Well, they wanted an area that was close to the lake, close to downtown. It had two diagonal streets which was Lincoln and Clark, easy exit to the Gold Coast, a short drive. They actually wanted a suburb, an inner-city suburb, you can call it. And from there, they kicked us out to -- and pushed us out towards Humboldt Park. And today, they’re kicking us out of Humboldt Park. JJ: How come the Puerto Ricans didn’t rebel? Why didn’t they [01:19:00] fight back? 33 �DRR: You know what I think it was? I believe that our parents came and they took what they had to take because they didn’t know how to fight back or they feared to fight back. It took us to fight what we really wanted for. And it took us because, believe it or not, it damaged us in a lot of ways. And soldiers of freedom fighters that we were. We took the beating in order for our children today and our grandchildren [01:20:00] today to be able to go to school the way they’re doing. We have children and grandchildren who are cops, lawyers, I got one that’s a doctor because they were able to go to these schools that they needed to. JJ: How many grandchildren do you have? DRR: I got 36 grandkids. JJ: Any great-grandkids? DRR: Yeah, about 16 of them. But today, I talk with them -JJ: And they still call you a gang member? DRR: (laughs) Well, one of them called me a sit under the tree, old type of grandpa. But what I’m saying is that we took it so that our children can enjoy what they’re doing. I speak with my grandchildren today, and I told them, “Did you know that at one time you couldn’t go to the same restaurant and buy a hamburger where this guy went?” [01:21:00] “Oh, come on, Grandpa.” “Did you know that sometimes you couldn’t go to this school just because you wanted to?” They didn’t know that. Thank goodness that somebody -JJ: Why are you telling them that? 34 �DRR: It’s like you say, why did they stop fighting? Because they believe now that they still have everything. And I hate to say it, but this guy, Trump, best thing he ever did was run for president because he sure woke up a lot of people to reality and what’s really going on. He woke them up with a slap in the face. JJ: On that note, I mean he woke them up. So the Young Lords [01:22:00] fought back in Lincoln Park, but they kicked all the Puerto Ricans out of there. So did the Young Lords win or did they lose? DRR: You know, that’s a good question. I like to feel like I won. JJ: What do you mean? Why do you say that? DRR: I won that battle, we won that battle. JJ: Why? What makes you say that? DRR: Because if you look at today’s people’s lifestyles, our people’s lifestyles, they’re 100 percent better than what they were for us, and that’s because our children and our grandchildren were able to benefit from what we fought for. [01:23:00] We moved out, but we didn’t leave everything, we took a lot with us. And our kids today are what they are today and it’s because of people like the Young Lords. And half of us really didn’t know -- we knew where we wanted to go and what we wanted, but we didn’t understand the impact of it all. How many Latino policemen do we have today? Lawyers? Firemen? How many Latino judges do we have? How many [01:24:00] Latino channels do we have? How many Latino stores? Today even Winn-Dixie has Latino stores. And it all came back from the Latino people, the Puerto Rican people -- let’s say Latino people -- because it wasn’t just Puerto Ricans, it was every single Latino nation out there that fought. 35 �If we have all this today, our kids, our grandkids, that was because of people like the Young Lords. JJ: Any final thoughts? DRR: Don’t give up. Don’t give up, keep fighting, there’s always something to fight for. There’s always something [01:25:00] that belongs to you, and you have the right to have it. JJ: What’s the most important thing that you feel that the Young Lords contributed to Puerto Rican and other people -- other oppressed people? Or just other people in general. DRR: What the Young Lords contributed? JJ: That people should know about. DRR: That a group no matter how meaningless it may seem, how meaningful and powerful it can be [01:26:00] if you’re fighting for what you believe in. JJ: Any more final thoughts? DRR: I was going to say you can tell stories, we’d be here forever. JJ: I got one. How many grandkids did you say you have? DRR: Thirty-six. JJ: And how many grandkids? DRR: Great-grandkids? JJ: Well, yeah, great-grandkids. DRR: Great-grandkids, about 16. JJ: So 16 and 36. So how many kids do you have? And we didn’t say their names, what are their names? 36 �DRR: Oh, my children, I have -- there’s David, Jr. David II; there’s Latisha, there’s Le’Von, biological. [01:27:00] My other children are Laura, Marianna, Diana -she’s with God -- and Chrissie, and Charlene. Those are my heart-so-logical children. JJ: What do you want them to know about David Rivera Reyes? DRR: Not too much, I hope. (laughter) JJ: What do you want them to know? DRR: I just want them to know that whatever might have seemed crazy, if they see this video, that they find out and keep it in mind that everything they have and the power that they have today was because of people like their dad [01:28:00] who were willing to sacrifice what they needed to sacrifice for them to have what they have today, and the rights that they have today. And they have other rights which they should continue to fight for. JJ: Okay, thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ea322b072a5625461c5331c75503bc9.mp4 a17c94fb451c10351d1a0e1c988d9003 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Rivera Reyes vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de David Rivera Reyes, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 01/12/2011 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Reyes_David_Rivera Title A name given to the resource David Rivera Reyes video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reyes, David Rivera Description An account of the resource Oral history of David Rivera Reyes, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 01/12/2011 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-01-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f7aece5be9b989cab6ba6cfbfc5fa9cd.pdf a5ebce9d3a017ff09e363a7aff1ddc48 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Celso_Rivera Interviewers: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/28/2011 Runtime: 01:16:45 Biography and Description Celso F. Rivera was born November 11, 1949 in Coamo, Puerto Rico. It is a southeastern town of the Island; agricultural with a history sugar cane production. He is one of five siblings. The mother is Angelca and the father is Francisco Rivera. When he arrived in Chicago in 1954, the family owned their first home at 1705 N. Fremont. He remembers how content they were living amongst their own culture. The Grandfather put a barber shop in the basement. His older brother built a makeshift roller coaster unto the back stairway. Kids paid a couple of pennies to climb into a wooden crate and get pushed down into a ramp. It ended in the back yard. Next door, inside another home was a Black church which filled up on Sundays and holidays. He describes that the area was primarily a Puerto Rican enclave within Lincoln Park that bordered Willow, North Ave., Halsted and Sheffield Streets. These enclaves later formed into a much larger Puerto Rican barrio which went scores of blocks from North Ave. to Addison and from Clark to Ashland. Lincoln Park was a segregated area, he describes. There were Gypsy, Italians, Black, a few Mexican families where he lived but primarily Puerto Ricans. The kids would play sports in competition at the boys, but if they later crossed into another nationality’s territory; they �would get beaten up. It was the same in Mulligan School, Newberry and at Waller High School where the clubs turned into street gangs. Celso was working as a Public Safety Officer at St. Elizabeth Hospital, which was changing over from Polish patrons to more Puerto Rican, when he first translated for a woman that he discovered was his sister from another mother. He and his older brother visited with her and they talked as if they had known each other all their lives. �Transcript CELSO RIVERA: My name’s Celso Rivera, born November 19, 1949. I was born in Coamo, Puerto Rico. JOSE JIMENEZ: Can you -- think you can give me your name, date of -- CR: My name, Celso Rivera. Born 11/19/1949. Born in Coamo, Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay, so what was -- when did you come to the United States? CR: My mom, the family arrived in Chicago in 1954. I want to say September, October of that year. JJ: Okay, and where did you -- like what neighborhood in the city? Did you arrive by yourself, or? CR: No, my mom rented a place on North Avenue near Willow and Dayton. It was Assumption between Fremont, and she purchased a home there, probably about a year after she arrived, [00:01:00] and we lived at 1705 North Fremont. JJ: Do you remember -- what was your mother and father’s name? CR: My mother’s name was Angelica Rivera, and my father’s name was Francisco Rivera. JJ: What about any siblings, any brothers and sisters? CR: Yeah, so I was the youngest of five. JJ: What are their names? CR: David Rivera, the second oldest, Jose Rivera was the third oldest. Nelson Rivera was the fourth, and my sister, Dama Rivera. JJ: Okay, and Coamo, Puerto Rico, you’re related to Orlando (inaudible)? 1 �CR: Yes, Orlando was our cousin, and there’s a few other people that were here that were brought up in the same area. Arsenio, and quite a few, and a lot of good friends, like David. We arrived at about the same time here in the United States. [00:02:00] JJ: So is Arsenio your cousin too, or no? CR: Yes he is. JJ: So he’s cousins with Orlando too, and -- CR: There was a relationship there. Of course, you know, there’s always a lot of parenthood in Puerto Rico. Sometimes you don’t realize your cousin too, but yes, very close family. JJ: (inaudible) so you kind of arrived right at around the same time, in ’54, around that time? CR: Yes. JJ: And did they all settle in the same area? CR: Yes, fortunately, we all -- Arsenio and them lived on Willow and Dayton, at the corner. David lived on Halsted and, right off of Willow. It was really nice. It was, predominantly in that area between Armitage, North Avenue, Halsted, Willow, Sheffield, and that was a prime area for a lot of Latino people that came from Puerto Rico, so. JJ: What do you mean, it was a prime area? What do you mean (inaudible)? CR: Prime I meant because when you [00:03:00] arrived there, it was -- exactly what it was, was a lot of Spanish, you know, oriented people, and then as you spread out further into the area, there were different types -- not types, but I mean other 2 �oriental-type people, there were some white people, there was Black people. And I hate to say it, but it’s like, there was were like district in series, if you went south of North Avenue, it was predominantly Black. Then you had CabriniGreen, and then if you went north of that. But if you went west of Sheffield and up north, then you had the Italians, (inaudible) Romas, and there was other names that we used to describe each other’s statuses. JJ: What you mean, names? CR: Like groups, the Italians and the Black, the wops, the spics, the shines was another different big word that was used. There was always large [00:04:00] -- I think everything was vying for their little areas to live comfortable. And yet there was this thing that we couldn’t try to move into another area, because there would be personality conflicts, or belief conflicts. It was nice, and yet it was very tough, very tough. The Spanish people and the Black people had to really strive to get to where they want to be and do things, and it wasn’t very easy. JJ: Okay, tough in terms of survival, or tough in terms of (inaudible) -- CR: I think -- tough in survival, number one, and tough physically, because there was a sense, like if you were having partial wars, like hey, we don’t want you in our group, and you don’t want us in your group. And there was this difference that sometimes led to physical altercations where, it was [00:05:00] like a norm that if you went into a different area, you knew that you would be in a fight, or the only reason you went over there was because something happened to either groups or friends that you wanted to retaliate. JJ: You wanted to retaliate? 3 �CR: Absolutely. It’s just a -- it was like, don’t come and hurt us, and we don’t come and hurt you. But if you’re looking for trouble, we’re going to give you trouble. JJ: So, this came later, right, after you moved in? Or right when -- CR: This was -- at the beginning, it was because we were young and didn’t realize it. But as time went on by, my family, we stayed over on Willow and Fremont. That eventually predominantly became Black, as we moved north into like Armitage, Halsted, Ash-- Orchard, Burling, Sedgwick and the Lincoln Park area, [00:06:00] that was predominantly Spanish, and there were crossing lines, except there weren’t crossing lines that said that. But in your mind, you knew that if you were going to an area, you knew there was going to be some kind of conflict. JJ: So let me get this -- so you’re taking about Sedgwick, all that -- towards the lake, Sedgwick. And then all the way -- CR: Almost -- all the way to Fullerton I would say, even Belmont. But beyond that was -- JJ: Okay, so from North Avenue up to Fullerton, Belmont, that area? CR: Yes, yeah -- JJ: From Sedgwick and all the way up to West, how about West? CR: West, almost up to, I want to say California. JJ: All the way to California? CR: Yeah, and even further -- JJ: At that time, (inaudible)? CR: -- at that time, that was pretty good. But even to-- JJ: So that’s a big area, you’re talking about a huge area. 4 �CR: Huge, yeah. JJ: And it was Hispanic. CR: It was Hispanic. You know, you say it now, but when you go back into time, I thought it was a tough area, but I thought it was very nice, because you felt that you were living in your own culture. And then [00:07:00] when you left Puerto Rico, I was very young. But you felt comfortable. You know, you walked down the street and you spoke Spanish, and your friends all used to eat rice and beans. Our culture, really, and our natural cultures didn’t disappear. You know, I still eat rice and beans, I’m almost 70 years old, and we still eat pasteles, and we celebrate Christmas the way it was. And it’s hard because you were brought up by your parents, and your parents worked very hard. JJ: What kind of work? What kind of work did you -- CR: My mom worked for Carbit Paint Company, it was a chemical paint -- on Blackhawk, and right off of North Avenue, it was -- fortunately, the company’s still there. JJ: Do you remember the name? CR: Oh yeah, Blackhawk -- it’s Carbit Paint Company. JJ: Blackhawk paint company? CR: Yes, and my dad worked for some wood company, but I didn’t know much of my dad -- when he left, I was like eight years or nine years old. He left and went [00:08:00] back to Puerto Rico. JJ: And then, (inaudible) in the family and (inaudible) -- 5 �CR: Yeah, and maybe my oldest brother might know a whole lot more than (inaudible), but I don’t remember much of him, so. JJ: So he never came back? CR: No, he never came back. In ’85, my mother told us that it was possible that we had two other siblings from his second marriage, and we should go meet them. And we did, and that’s when I first actually met my father where I knew that he was my dad, in some relationship. He told us that we had two sisters over here. At that time, I was working for a hospital administration. And they called me down to translate, and -- JJ: What kind of hospital, which hospital? CR: This is Saint Elizabeth’s Hospital, it was just a regular general practical hospital. And it’s amazing, because he called me -- JJ: And this is on Western? CR: Yes, on Western and Oakley, right between the -- right between Division and North Avenue, which is -- JJ: What did you do there? CR: That’s Humboldt Park area. JJ: And what did you do there? [00:09:00] CR: I was doing public safety for them. JJ: Public safety? CR: Yes, and it was really nice. JJ: As a security guard? You were a security guard? 6 �CR: Yes, we were the head of the program, we had -- it was a wild area. Humboldt Park was considered a gang-infected area as time went by. And they needed -the neighborhood’s clientele was changing from Polish to Spanish. So they wanted Spanish-speaking people so they can communicate better with the incoming crowds. And the doctor asked me to come down and translate. And it’s funny cause he says, “You see that attractive young lady over there, Cel?” I says, yeah. “I need help translating cause her son just, he fell out of the window.” So I go okay, so I go over there, and she looked at my name, and she goes, “Are you Rivera? Are you Rivera from Puerto Rico?” I says, “Yeah.” She says, “Do you know anybody, you know Francisco?” And I say, “Well Francisco, I know that he was my dad.” She goes, “Yeah, well I’m your sister.” And you know, we exchanged [00:10:00] information on each other’s family, and that evening, I says, “Why don’t you come over to my house? I just live down the street from here.” And she goes, “That’s fine, give me the address.” And then I call Nelson, and they were -- all, it’s like we knew each other forever, but we didn’t really know each other. But it was -- even today, that sister’s living with my sis out in California and North Avenue in the senior citizen’s home. She never moved out of her neighborhood. JJ: So tell me, what school did you attend? What grammar school? CR: Grammar School, I went to Mulligan Grade School on Sheffield and Halsted. And I used to cross Clybourn Street. One of the best times to go, even though I was very little. Cause we went there from up to about, I want to say, fifth grade, and it was four buildings, and it was maybe a block-and-a-half away, [00:11:00] 7 �maybe two blocks from my house, so we used to run home for lunch. So, I met a lot of great people that I’m still in contact with, which is really, really nice. But it was pretty mixed, and it was pretty tough. The kids coming from west of Sheffield, or north of Fullerton, they had to deal I think with the same problems we had to deal with, that we didn’t want the other cultures to mess with us, and they didn’t want the Spanish and Black cultures to mess with them, because (inaudible) -JJ: Would you -- I’m sorry, I didn’t -- the school, I can’t hear, the school? CR: Mulligan Grade School. JJ: Mulligan, okay, so that a few people that I know went to that school, and I think some of the Young Lords who were on that street. CR: Yes, absolutely. JJ: So what was Mulligan like? CR: Mulligan was -- to us, we were too young, and we knew there was a lot of nationalities, [00:12:00] and you know -- JJ: What were some of the many nationalities? CR: Spanish. JJ: You said Spanish and Mexican, Puerto Rican? CR: Puerto Rican, there wasn’t -- very few Mexicans lived in that area, in that particular area at that time. And then you had the Italians, because they were off of Sheffield and Fullerton, Belmont, west of that. And there was just a couple grade schools at that time, so a lot of kids -- we had a big -- four floors. You know, two small playgrounds, just like any other grade school at that time. 8 �JJ: So, I know they lived with with a couple of Mexican families, (inaudible). CR: Yeah, Daniel [Samuyo?], which is, was one of them. JJ: Oh, you knew Daniel [Samuyo?] (inaudible)? CR: Oh yeah, we’re still -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: -- (laughs) on Facebook. And of course, his sister, and we were real good friends with them. We still are. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, we still talk quite a bit. And then there was -- JJ: He lived on Dayton. We lived next door to each other. CR: Yeah, Dayton, then you had the barber right across the street on the other side. Absolutely, [00:13:00] that’s the guys. And we knew Antonio Lopez, who was an older gentleman. His kids were there even before we were. And, but there was just very few -- you know, from Mexico. JJ: It was mostly a Puerto Rican -- CR: Yes, absolutely. JJ: (inaudible) Hispanic (inaudible). CR: Yes. JJ: Okay, let me see something. Okay, if you wanna proceed. CR: Yeah, from Mulligan Grade School, it was -- nearby, we went to Newberry, which was considered a middle grade school. So we were there, which down the street, we walked, cause it was just about three-and-a-half blocks, right on Willow and Newbury, and Burling. And so we -- 9 �JJ: Was there a difference? Can you tell the difference between the schools? CR: Yeah, you know what, it’s amazing how -- what difference the school was. It was a bigger school, there was [00:14:00] more space, to do, there were better gyms. Not a whole lot better, but you know, good size. And then the nationality grouping was really, really different. Then you had the Black students, and then there was a section there between Newberry and Orchard, but south of the school was what we called Gypsy people. And they were there. And they too were very tough, because they were always -- I guess they were always being picked on by the fact that they wore different clothes, and different style. But the Spanish culture still was a big presence in that area, because that’s the way it was starting to get. And then right there from Newberry, there was a club called Lincoln Boys Club, which was a stabilizing place. It’s unbelievable that when we used to go there, it didn’t matter what grouping or nationality you belonged to. You wanted to play ball and basketball, and end up -- the fight was competition. [00:15:00] But then, as soon as that’s over, you saw each other in one grouping. You know, just coming into the other side where you’re not supposed to be, there was a fight, because you know, that’s our area. It just doesn’t change, it’s just -- JJ: It’s like a peace treaty or something? (inaudible) There was no fighting over there? CR: With peace -- you know, it’s amazing, the peace treaties -- JJ: Right, and I call it peace treaty (inaudible) -- CR: Yeah, no, no, but you’re right. We used to go and play ball, and with sports, it was okay. But if you were there, just to walk around, and you think that you can 10 �do on their, what I call territory, they wouldn’t allow you to do that. You know, that’s just the way it was. And then of course from there, we just -- we were still over on the -- living on Fremont and Bissell, and we walked all the way to what they call Arnold Upper Grade Center, which was on Orchard and Armitage between Halsted and Orchard. And that still, [00:16:00] you know, was a Spanish-oriented neighborhood. And then what happened then after -JJ: (inaudible) sorry -- what happened then, go ahead. CR: Yeah, it was still Spanish-oriented, and we graduated. And then, my same -- the same group, David [Pantoja?] and all these people were still the same together, Cha-Cha, we used to know. And the guys we used to run with. So then we went Arnold Upper Grade Center. Then we decided now we’re growing up. We’re not growing up, 13 or 14, we’re going to Waller High School, and that--. JJ: So before we get to Waller, (inaudible) so -- how were the teachers in Mulligan, and then how were the teachers in Newberry, and then Arnold? CR: You know, and to me, that’s a good acknowledgment of -- when you were at Mulligan, predominantly staff was -- I’m saying White, [00:17:00] because that’s the only way I would describe them. Because I didn’t know if they were German or Irish, but to me they were just white-oriented people. When I went to Newberry, it was the same thing. When I went to Arnold Upper Grade Center, it was still the same thing. I don’t recall seeing another nationality, I would say color-wise, other than white-oriented staff. When I went to Waller, it predominantly was still the same. I only knew my biology teacher was Black. The police administrator -- the consultant, and Franklin Lee [Toritino?], was 11 �Italian, so they had two policemen. But the culture of the school was, I want to say maybe 30, 40 percent Hispanic, about 50 percent Black, which was still -[00:18:00] it was predominantly Black because -- and then we had the mixed, we had a little bit of Italian people that lived outside of the Webster and north of Belmont, in that area which was had to be bused in, Lincoln Park, Grand Ave, and it was really diversified. And in even the school setting, we used to -- you have to group and walk very careful. Say what you got to say. And be careful what you say, because there was retaliation process, a retaliation process from the groups. And you had to really take care of yourself, and take care of who you thought were your friends. Fortunately for us, we had several groups and we had several kids, we had a couple Polish kids that were brought up with us in the neighborhood, so. But going into Waller, it was -- [00:19:00] (inaudible; break in audio) -- be great. Yeah, so the time at Waller High School, my four years, the outside environment was also taken care of by sorts of individuals that believed that the area was territorial, and we -- and at that time, we had quite a few club members, at that time they were considered gang members, as you see them today, and you really look back, it was actually club members, I personally belonged to the Continentals, and we were in the area -JJ: How did this start? CR: Well the Continentals, I went to a softball game, and I -- JJ: Where was the softball game? CR: Over at the Lincoln Boys Club, and over at (Eisen?) YMCA, which is on North Avenue, and they asked me to -- 12 �JJ: Do you know what year? CR: Oh yeah, 1966, and ’67, because I was still in my high school, and we started -the Continentals [00:20:00] were -- a few guys were going to the same high school I was and they asked me if I wanted to play ball, and I says, well I don’t really want to join a gang, I just want to play ball. It’s not a gang, it’s a club. It’s called the Continentals, we play ball, we play sports. And deep in my heart, I knew it was -- we had to use those things so that we don’t -- be seen as it’s a gang, but in the -- we used to play the Black Eagles, and Paragons used to be around, Romas used to be around. The Latin Kings. JJ: So did you guys fight the Paragons? CR: It’s amazing that all these groups were in that area, and they were sculptured by the Hispanic, but yet we saw differences, and we didn’t -- nobody wanted to go past Dayton and Seminary or that area, because they belonged to a certain group. The Continentals were on Larrabee, [00:21:00] North Avenue, and Orchard. But all these groups, in reality, was just trying to make sure that nobody from that outside perimeter would come into that area. I personally even today think that if there were big groups, and we had to, let’s say defend our territory, all these groups would get together by the fact that they were Spanish. JJ: Did that ever happen when (inaudible)? Did all the Hispanic groups get together? CR: I don’t remember. You know, cause I was a little bit younger. But I do know that if there was groups in one area, and people needed help, if Romas come over, the Scorpions come over from Webster, and, that they were willing to, hey you 13 �know, the fact that you don’t belong here and this is our area. Yeah, we’re going to run you out. You know, and then of course the Young Lords were a big party of -- the scenario there, I [00:22:00] remember because my brother was involved with them. I remember Cha-Cha was doing the interview. Manuel, I remember it when they were starting to lose some civil liberties, responsibilities, I still remember the day they killed Manuel over on Armitage, on Dayton and Fremont, I’ll never forget. JJ: (inaudible) I think the -- CR: The police killed him. JJ: Police killed him (inaudible), but (inaudible) they -- CR: Your area, right. And then the People’s Church, which was a big part, of course (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible) remember (inaudible)? CR: Oh yeah, I knew Manuel. We played ball and we played softball. And then I think they killed another person. And when we read about it, you know, we was real sad. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, and People’s Church on Dayton was their locale to relate situations to their neighborhood. JJ: How did you see People’s Church (inaudible)? CR: I thought it was a great thing. I felt that they were doing something [00:23:00] to improve, just like it is today. You know, today it’s just as difficult, I think, as it was 50 years ago. You know, the profiling hasn’t really changed that much. They 14 �just do it in different ways. I remember still when they took over the DePaul Theological -- (inaudible) the Seminary, which was right off of Halsted and Belden and Fullerton, which is still there. And they strongly built a big social service building on Halsted and between Willow and Armitage and that building, I don’t know if it was still there. But it served as a service point for -JJ: You remember when that happened McCormick Seminary? CR: I think -- I don’t exactly remember the date, but it had to be in ’67 -- JJ: How did you feel about -- CR: Oh I felt it was the right thing to do, because there was nobody going to [00:24:00] do anything for anyone at a higher level of government. You know, they -- it’s unfortunately that that’s what it is. And then, I think they really did it the right way, and I think that sometimes -- JJ: Your brother was part of that? CR: Oh yes, my brother David was a big part of that. JJ: So, how did you -- how did it resonate with your family? How did it -- CR: Well my mom was only concerned that we didn’t get hurt, or we didn’t hurt innocent people, which that never happened. I personally thought that they were striving against the system itself. You were chased off the corners, you were whiplashed if you were at the playground after eight o’clock. You had different concerns, but the concern was to make sure that we didn’t either move or strive out of that area. You know, and even though I did graduate from Waller High School and went on to [00:25:00] other schools, the -- JJ: What other schools? 15 �CR: -- Waller was ranked 33 out of the 36 high schools, as far as academics. So they knew that that school was set up for failure, you know. And I think the -- a lot of the organizations as they grew up, like the Young Lords, were telling hey, when are you going to do better for our people, our students? Which nothing really much changed then. And today, Lincoln Park High School’s a big-time academic school, so you see that. JJ: So now they call it Lincoln Park High School. CR: Yes. JJ: They changed it. Okay, so how do you see the -- you saw the Young Lords and thought it was a positive thing? CR: Oh yes. JJ: You just worried that the people were not going to get hurt, anybody was going to get hurt? CR: That was the big issue there. But our people did get hurt, yeah. [00:26:00] JJ: And you mentioned that you were a safety officer at -- CR: At the hospital, yeah. JJ: So at that time, the Young Lords were kind of militant, and they were trying to connect with the Black Panthers, and they were talking against the police and that? CR: Absolutely. JJ: How did you -- where did you get the idea for the -- cause there was a lot of police that came out of Lincoln Park. CR: Oh yeah. 16 �JJ: (inaudible) people that grew up with us. But why did you get into that? I mean, and why? CR: Well, number one, right after high school, ’68 was probably one of the roughest years in -- it was all history for everybody. You had, Martin Luther King got killed that year. There was the riots. You had the -- President -- not president, but the president’s brother Bobby, Robert Fitzgerald Kennedy got killed. And then [00:27:00] you had -- there was two other things that just -- you know, there was just, nothing going on right. They had the Democratic riots in Lincoln Park, you know. JJ: The Democratic convention? CR: Yes, and that was a nightmare. They had -- they did a curfew. JJ: Was that a big thing? CR: It was huge. I mean, half of Chicago got -- there were all kinds of disturbances, there was a lot of rioting. Mayor Daley, at that time Richard Daley had sent out a big message, telling the City of Chicago that if rioting and stealing and causing damage would continue, that he’s giving the police the authority to shoot on sight. Why would you go kill people knowing that basically what they’re doing, I know it’s wrong, but they’re just taking things that they need, because they can’t - they don’t have the jobs, and we didn’t have jobs and the opportunities that most people had. And then of course, going in the ’60s when I came back, [00:28:00] I went to the service, I came back. JJ: You went to the service? CR: Yes. 17 �JJ: What -- CR: The United States Army, and it was no different there. JJ: Did you go to Vietnam, or? CR: I went overseas to both Germany and the other place. And there was no difference. The Hispanic and Black population as you grew up, knew that there was a reason to -- and you know it now because it’s been admitted by the government, that at the time, there was a legal genocide to try to get rid of most Blacks and most Hispanics by sending them to war. Because there was no deferments for the Hispanic kids or the Black kids, but the white kids. And then there was no National Guard, or Coast Guard, and they would go and serve three months and get trained, but come back to the United States, where we had our full time of service. Myself, David [Pantoja?] went to Vietnam, we came back. Juan [Pantoja?], his brother went, my brother Jose. JJ: So you saw each other there? CR: Yeah, oh yeah, we knew [00:29:00] each other then, and we had very different times, and my best friends, Eddie Nunez, came back [from overseas?], and he was hooked up on drugs. He lasted seven months, and he passed away over there on Halsted, and it was just not a nice thing. I know that we live here in the United States, but the United States government at that time, and even sometimes today, are not doing things that you think they should be doing. When I came back in ’71, I went back to school, and that’s when I got into the medical field, this is public safety. So I worked at Swedish Covenant. I was the only Hispanic in the management group. And still the neighborhood was still in 18 �the process of going under big change, because I went back to live over there in Armitage, and then I lived on Howe Street, which is just across the street from Waller High School. So we lived there, and -JJ: It went through a change? CR: Oh, big change. [00:30:00] The neighborhood now is not totally Hispanic now. You know, and it got to the point where now -- JJ: What time did the change (inaudible)? CR: Seventy-three, ’74, ’75, ’76, (inaudible), because I remember in ’77, I met my first wife, and she lived in Humboldt Park. And so she says, why don’t you move from Howe Street -- [from my ma’s building?] -- when she was still alive. And I go, I have no problem with it, you know, if that’s what you want to do, so I did. And then, I caught myself going wow, you know, I just left the neighborhood, it was going through changes. But now you’re older, so now you’re thinking -- will it be a good change or not a good change? And I go yeah, I think a good change. It’s not the old neighborhood it used to be. And it’s amazing when I moved over there to Oakley and Hirsch, it was -- JJ: Did it improve? CR: Oh yeah, Lincoln Park, at this point -- JJ: For the people that live there? CR: Yes, if you want to live there, you have -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: No, (inaudible) very little Hispanic. (laughter) [00:31:00] They’re gone, you know. JJ: (inaudible) you can’t (inaudible). (inaudible) didn’t improve for (inaudible). 19 �CR: It didn’t improve for us because we were still struggling with getting better education, better jobs, and that didn’t happen for quite a while, even after that. But you saw the affluent people, the people with money -- JJ: I don’t want to put words in your mouth, [you understand that right?] CR: No, no, I totally agree. But the affluent people, people with money, bought out Larrabee, and it used to be a low-income place, and now it’s gorgeous townhouses. And people don’t put money into these areas if they don’t know there are going to be changes. So it wasn’t like, one person bought a nice house, and another saying oh, the white people are moving back in, let’s go buy in Lincoln Park. No, it was situated to the point where we were going to move the Black and Spanish people out of this area into areas, that’s where we -- I just want to say settled, [00:32:00] it was like in the west, well now we’re going to go to Humboldt Park, Division. And we did when I was -- there was a couple Black families on my block. But the predominantly neighborhood was Hispanic. And you got [Cooley?] High School -- Wells High School, all Spanish, and -- JJ: This is by Wicker Park, or Humboldt Park (inaudible)? CR: Yeah, this is Humboldt Park. Now I’m leaving Lincoln Park, it’s -- JJ: So people moved there. CR: Absolutely. You have a lot of people, just -- JJ: Moving west? CR: Absolutely, where they can be more affordable, or they feel more comfortable. JJ: So when Lincoln Park was kind of big with all the Hispanics, so Lincoln Park and Humboldt Park became (inaudible)? 20 �CR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: It still had some Hispanic -- CR: Oh, yeah, there’s, even today -- JJ: -- but not as many as -- CR: -- even today, you’re absolutely right. JJ: Is that correct? CR: That’s correct, that’s just the way it was. It was like, move out, in the old western days, well we settle this, and we can’t [00:33:00] keep it, because we’re trying to put new stuff there. Now we got to move and start again. And then when I was at -- I moved right across the street from Tuley at that time was a high school, and they made it into a grade school because the growth of population, Black people and Spanish people, at that time, love to have big families. And they had to make room for kids coming up. So Tuley became a grade school. They built Roberto Clemente High School on Western and Division to support the high school population, but they had Wells on Ashland and Division (inaudible). I don’t ever forget these names because you (inaudible). And then, you realize it, a lot of it’s still the same way. I go to visit my sister in California and right off the beach, and you can see the Hispanic culture there. But you also see the bistros, the outside chairs, which [00:34:00] would have never existed because people had so much fear of what going to go on. And the gang-related. And you know, at that time, you had the Cobras, you had still the Latin Kings, the -- a lot of groups. 21 �JJ: So before I ask you about, you mentioned how you kind of changed from the public safety mindset that you had (inaudible). What I wanted to know is, originally, why did you want to become a public safety officer? CR: Well again, what happened was -- JJ: (inaudible) people became baseball players, whatever? CR: Oh yeah, it was just something that happened, cause when I came back from school, I was working for Domingo, I think you remember Domingo? He was in charge of that Build program organization for social service. JJ: (inaudible) CR: I did some work for him, and I was starting to realize, man, you know, the only thing we’re trying to do is keep our kids out of jail, or if they’re going to [00:35:00] jail, try to find them something to do, keep them busy. You’ve got -- I give thanks (inaudible) Domingo for a quite a while. And the only thing I do remember is how much good he was trying to do for the kids and keep them out of trouble, starting sports -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: Did you? (inaudible) great, yeah. And the sporting equipment -- watching out for kids to make sure they stay out of trouble, he would take -- his car or two cars, and we’d go to parks, because we were much younger. And so, man, I don’t want to do this for a living, cause that’s what I went to school for, social service. So then I had a friend named Mick France who lived down on Halsted and Willow, an Italian kid, one of the few, and he became a police officer. But he was working at Illinois Masonic at security. He goes, Cel, why don’t you leave your 22 �job and come, and you got the education, you become one of the safety managers. And I go, okay, so. And I liked it so much, because at [00:36:00] that time, Illinois Masonic was still far north, but the – culture-wise was different. You had some whites, some Spanish and Blacks, because it was changing. But then eventually they asked me to go to Saint Elizabeth’s. And I told my boss, look, I’ve been over here, and I went to Swedish, and why -- can I know the reason why? Yeah, because it’s predominantly Spanish, also, and it’s changing. And we need people who are going to be able to relate to the culture that we’re going to be having. And he goes -- and I asked him really nicely, we’re not profiling anything here. He says no, we just got to live, but the fact is that Humboldt Park is almost going to become 80 percent Spanish, and your clientele going into the hospital is going to be Spanish. So we wanted them to feel comfortable, and we don’t want somebody, well, what are you talking about, what do you need, or you know, can you get somebody -- able to translate for you? [00:37:00] And that was a big thing for me. I felt, though I was in the public safety aspect and communications, that I loved it because I was able to help my people. And I’m saying “my people,” because I still believe that, I’m Puerto Rican, and I’m a Puerto Rican diehard. So I would tell -- and I felt good doing that. Or anybody who spoke Spanish, that -- cause I never ask, where you’re from, as long as they understood and we would communicate, I was happy. And so was the hospital. So then the -- at Saint Elizabeth’s, they asked me to go St. Anne’s. And St. Anne’s was -- same process, changing, now we’re all the way to Lavergne and 23 �Cicero, now that the culture’s moving. So that’s when they had their big flea market, and it was nice. So I stayed there for a few years. JJ: You said Lavergne and Cicero? CR: Yes. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Well, St. Anne’s was there. Yeah, but the culture was changing. So, and that’s the same thing, was a predominantly white, white neighborhood. JJ: And then -- [00:38:00] (inaudible) -- CR: It was Spanish and Black. JJ: So they keep moving. CR: Absolutely. JJ: The Hispanics kept moving. CR: Yes, and then from there -- JJ: Was that after Wicker Park? CR: After Wicker Park. JJ: That they cleaned (p Wicker Park? CR: There -- yes, it’s just amazing how the process was of -- if they started to look good here -- JJ: (inaudible) I’m putting words in your mouth. CR: No, no, they started to look good in here, you got to move. But no, that was normal. JJ: Can I ask you point blank, what -- that was the urban renewal program. CR: Yes, absolutely. 24 �JJ: So what do you think about that program? CR: I personally thought that, they were trying to -- in my opinion, they’re trying to control cities and, what do you call, precincts, for what they can and can’t do, as far as political. But I think you know, you probably understand the politics more than I do, because you knew it, you saw what they were really doing, where we were just part of it. [00:39:00] Then when you started realizing, why is all the Black people or Division and Halsted, or you got Robert Taylor, or you got Clybourne, which was predominantly Spanish. And then you got Halsted still, and then that area, and then it’s, people are moving out. And that’s what they wanted, because they also knew that education-wise, even today, we’re trying to get people educated to vote, to realize that we’re the only ones that can make changes, and we’ve got that right. The ones they don’t, it’s unfortunate, but the ones that we have, and there’s quite a few Hispanic people, you know. Then, from there, I was moved to Swedish Covenant Hospital. But then, Swedish was okay. And then we moved out of that area, and I was still going to the downtown area. And then, that was it, just part of history. JJ: Did you have any children? Did you get married? [00:40:00] CR: Yes. JJ: What age did you get (inaudible)? CR: I was married, I got married in -- I’ll never forget, it was ’70 -- I didn’t get married until ’79, but I had my first child at ’74, which was Felix. JJ: (inaudible) 25 �CR: Felix was his name. He’s – an anesthesiologist now, he works out of Beth Neal and Mercy Hospital. But he lives in Chicago. And -- but I had him in Humboldt Park. And his wife -- my wife at that time, she passed away, lived in Humboldt Park almost her entire life. So that’s why when she asked me to move from Lincoln Park, it wasn’t so much because we were close to the hospital where we both worked, because it was competing. It was that she didn’t want to take him out of that culture range. And she told us, no I want me kid to learn, to be Puerto Rican and be Spanish. She was a real proud lady, and spoke Spanish at home. That’s -- I mean, I haven’t forgotten my Spanish. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, I (inaudible) speak Spa-- I mean, I [00:41:00] speak Spanish all the time, and so does she. And then we had my daughter in ’77. Her name is Denine, same thing, she wanted her to -- at least have them go into high school, and let them make the decision if they wanted to go to the high schools in their areas, like Clemente, or at that time Josephinum was right next to us. Or did they want to go -- and I’m not afraid to say it, to go into a white culture environment, where they -- they say, whatever you guys decide for us, we’ll go there. Our education level to be is going to be, we want to go to college, and we want to become somebody. Want to do -- but I also -- fostered two kids. One passed away ten years ago from a sinus infection. But my foster daughter lives about 20 miles from my brother David in Tampa, she lives in Lakeland, and she’s a CPA for American Airlines, and she’s been down there 30 years, and [00:42:00] everybody’s always asking me, Celso, why doesn’t she want to come? I says, 26 �because when I fostered them, I went to Puerto Rico to get ’em, and they’re (inaudible) Puerto Rican, so they were eight and nine, and as they were growing up here, they didn’t like the cold. They just said dad, you know, we’re not going to like it here. I says, look, finish school, then you can go wherever you want. So, that’s exactly they did, they both finished school, and they both went down to Florida, one went back to Puerto Rico, my son. And then he went back to Florida, he passed away in Florida with a bad sinus infection. But my daughter, they felt the c-- not so much the culture, because -- but the environment. It was hot all year round, you know, it was -- that’s what they wanted to do, they wanted to walk on the shores, they wanted to go on the beaches. That’s what they did in Puerto Rico when they were young, and they missed that, even at a young age. But I didn’t stop them from (inaudible). I go down when I go see David, and I go stop by and see them, so. JJ: Do you go Puerto Rico ever? CR: I’ve been [00:43:00] to Puerto Rico, jeez -- JJ: Did you go back to live at all later, or -- CR: No, I didn’t -- JJ: -- cause you were born there. CR: Yes, I was born there. I never went back to live there. My brother Nelson did for two years. My brother Joe, before he passed away, was down there for five years. And I just, my kids -- JJ: (inaudible) 27 �CR: -- yeah, I stayed here, but we went to visit every year in February was our visiting day for me and Nelson and go to see las fiestas patronales. So we used to go there, and that’s where I met Miguel Rivera, he was there in Coamo, at his age, was the same age as I. He would play a band in baños. One day we were walking by, and he goes hey, I know you two guys! JJ: He was playing in a band? CR: He was, Miguel Rivera was playing in a band. JJ: (inaudible) in a band. CR: Yeah, music band, playing Spanish music, and we were at this -- not social club, it was a resort. And he -- (inaudible) turned around and went, who the hell knows us here? And he [00:44:00] goes, Celso, David, Miguel, Miguel! He says, from Chicago. And so we went up, and we BS’d for the whole night. JJ: Well you’re not related -- CR: No, not at all, we were just friends -- he grew up with us in Chicago and went to high school with us, I’m pretty sure you knew him. So, and it was just nice to talk to somebody, cause he was real close with Dave, I guess, not so much with me. JJ: So who else did you grow up with in Lincoln Park? What were some of the family names? CR: The [Pantojas?]. JJ: Was a family name? CR: Yes, Pantoja was a family -- David Pantoja, [Ismal?], Juan, [Isi?]. JJ: And what groups were they (inaudible) -- 28 �CR: Juan Pantoja belonged to the Paragons. David belonged to our group, he was in the Continentals, and then one time became the Golden Wings, because we used to hang around -- JJ: David Pantoja? CR: Yeah, we used to hang around on Halsted and Willow. They thought we were the golden boys, and instead of calling us the Golden Boys, they used to call us the Golden Wings. JJ: So Halsted and Willow was [00:45:00] you guys’ -- CR: Yeah, that was our area. Not our area, but we hung around on Willow and Halsted by Jesus’ house, Santiago. Who also became a policeman. With Carlos Flores, yes. Carlos -- JJ: Carlos Flores? CR: Yes, wow, Eddie Nunez was still there with them. Unfortunately, he passed away shortly after he came overseas, he was introduced to drugs. Mickey Rivera, another gentleman, Tony Velez, Miguel Rivera and his brother, Jose, I just talked to Eddie Sanchez, I talked to Jose Nieves, about three weeks ago after 50 years. JJ: Cause Joe Nieves later joined the Young Lords. CR: Yes, because of David. JJ: And he was my cousin. CR: Is that right? JJ: Yeah, Dave was your brother, right? CR: Yeah, I didn’t know that. 29 �JJ: (inaudible) my cousin. CR: Yeah, and Jose. JJ: And Jose. CR: Yeah. JJ: And Carmelo. CR: And Carmelo. You know it’s amazing, what a small world, I didn’t even know that [00:46:00] then, get to know him now. Yeah, he was -- we were the group, the Continentals, [exactly?]. And the [Borgias?] were our cousins. JJ: (inaudible) CR: You know, Raymond, and Jose. See, and we used to go over there, we used to hang over there by – a lot over there by North Avenue. JJ: You remember any of the girls? CR: Wow -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: The girls (inaudible). The girls I remember -- Danny’s girlfriend, don’t remember her full name, but I know (inaudible) nice girl from Carlos -- (inaudible) was his sister, I remember Miriam, Carmen, Candy, David’s wife, which was still Mary Sonia. Ella Torres, used to live right there on Willow and Dayton. It’s amazing, I can probably go through them here because we all went to high school together, so. JJ: The yearbook. CR: The yearbook, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) put it up on your camera. 30 �CR: Yeah -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: Waller 1968, and [00:47:00] it’s amazing, because -- JJ: Look at that, we’re going to have to -- CR: Yeah, absolutely. JJ: Make a few copies of it. That’s an important year. CR: It was -- ’68 was a big year. JJ: Everyone transformed. CR: Yes, it was a changing -- JJ: So, did you notice the Young Lords before, and the Young Lords after? CR: No, I knew the Young Lords probably when you guys started it from the beginning. JJ: From the gang days? CR: From the gang days. JJ: (inaudible) you remember, you didn’t remember the political? CR: Well I remember the political only, to that point where you had the big incident with, you know, the People’s Church. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, DePaul, but I also knew that -- JJ: When you say “the big incident,” what do you mean? What was the big incident with the People’s Church? CR: Well to me the big incident was, remember, the head of police, the priest -- I don’t know, I still say he got killed. 31 �JJ: The one that got killed, (inaudible). CR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so how did you see that? How did the community see that? CR: The community saw that as, [00:48:00] even if we see it today, that if you got somebody that’s trying to make changes, and the changes are not acceptable to the -- what, we used to call the machine at that time, you know, out and about, they’re gonna get rid of you, you know? JJ: Oh, so you saw them? CR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: I thought that people saw that, maybe they thought the Young Lords did it. CR: No, no, you don’t -- JJ: Not the communities? CR: No, no, the community, you know, you gotta realize, and I’m still from (inaudible) that even though we might see differences, but if -- even at that time, if a Puerto Rican did something, I’m not gonna chastise them. JJ: What? CR: I’m not gonna chastise, I’m not gonna criticize some. Because I think that he’s in the same boat we are, and we want to improve ourselves, we want to do better. But that wasn’t allowed, you know. And to many years after that, when we had to be a quota, or that company’s got to hire two Blacks and two Spanish or else the government’s not gonna fund this or fund that. JJ: So it wasn’t allowed? [00:49:00] 32 �CR: No, absolutely not. And anybody who believes that the opportunity for -- you know, dream of yours, it’s never really existed. You had to go out and do what you had to do. And even today, you know, there’s still quotas, you know. It’s amazing that you don’t look that way. But when you go to schools, you know, at U of I, I went to school on an education assistance program, because they didn’t felt that I was smart enough to get into a regular program. You know, but you gotta show them that okay, well if you want me to start and crawl up the way to get to where (inaudible), I’m gonna do it. See, and they don’t like determined individuals to take charge, because they think that they’re gonna change their way of living. You know, and I don’t care where you’re living is, the white man doesn’t want to give anything to anybody that’s his, or [00:50:00] if there’s a way to stop -- of not sharing it because they don’t want to, they’ll find it. But if there’s a government which is really -- you know, you have to have this, or else, you know, equal rights, equal working rights, equal -- those things are still looked at very heavy when you walk into any place. You know, and it’s -- and even today, look what’s happening with our politics situation. You know, at one time, we came here in ’54 and ’55, the only thing we wanted to do was -- and my parents, was work and to provide a living for us. We weren’t asking for your block or your neighborhood. We were just asking for something for us to do, to do on our own. You know, and I -- no matter what you do in life, you still see that, and you see it more often, because just the distribution factor is, you know, like Lane Tech. [00:51:00] Lane Tech was on Addison and Western, I don’t forget. And I was gonna go to Lane Tech, but I -- I don’t wanna go to Lane Tech. I want to go to 33 �my neighborhood school. I think I’ll have a more difficult time going there because it’s predominantly white. JJ: So Lane Tech was predominantly white -- CR: Absolutely. JJ: And you didn’t want to go there? CR: No, plus it requested -- JJ: Were you afraid to go there? CR: No, absolutely not. I just -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: I just -- no, I felt more comfortable with the culture that was brought up from little. We came here, we were five, and the only culture that I knew was Black and Spanish. JJ: So that makes sense. But what I’m saying is, did you -- you also were kind of saying something about, you didn’t use the word discrimination, but you said that we weren’t -- they didn’t want us to improve quickly? CR: Well no, there was -- JJ: -- (inaudible) to improve slowly. CR: And that’s why those standards were set up by schools. JJ: So you said that there some form of holding us down? [00:52:00] CR: Oh no, I don’t think. You have to know by the fact is, you had districts, school districts, districted out of the area, where you had to go live in those areas to go there, why was it that at Waller High School, all the kids from Cabrini-Green were allowed to travel? (inaudible) kids from Belmont, from as far as Armitage and 34 �Cortland and Western, we were going to Waller High School. But yet if you wanted to go to Hirsch, or not to Hirsch, but to Lakeview, or to Gordon Tech, which was a private school then. But Lane Tech, you had an 8.5, da-da-da-da, and come on, how many kids coming from -- me, Puerto Rico, coming five years old, are gonna reach levels of academic -- five years or eight years, from eighth grade or first grade, to be able to read at a 9.1 or 8.1 level, you know, which that’s what was required. [00:53:00] And I can understand if they wanted their own profiles, but I don’t think they should have stopped the kids from going to a school that they wanted to go to, why? You fail because you fail. And again, the Board of Education, they didn’t do much to have Black or Spanish professors or teachers in these locations. So I just thought that when I go to Waller, I was within my culture. I felt comfortable, I didn’t have to please or feel that I have to act more sophisticated when I walk down the hallways, because you got the kids who were all dressed (inaudible), and I’m gonna wear my same jeans, and my same gym shoes, or my same sweater, you know. Eliminating that process, I go to school, see my friends. I enjoyed my time in school, and I go, and I get educated, and I go on with my life. But my brother Nelson went to Cooley High School, which was a vocational [00:54:00] school on Sedgwick and Division, right across the street from Cabrini-Green. But yet, kids were getting bused and transferred because it was a vocational school, so. JJ: And why did he go there? CR: He went there for -- JJ: Did you guys (inaudible)? 35 �CR: -- for mechanics, and for mechanical -- cause it was a vocational school, you learned trades, yeah, just like Lane. And he did very well. He’s doing well now. I mean, he went to college, he got his degree from DePaul, and then, and he’s some VP for Honeywell Corporation. JJ: This is Nelson? CR: Nelson, yeah. JJ: Oh wow, he went to DePaul? CR: Yes. JJ: Graduated from -- CR: Yeah, he got his master’s. JJ: He got his master’s? CR: Yeah, and -- JJ: I’m getting my master’s now, (inaudible). CR: Good, yeah, good for you. But no, that was an unseen feature in our Hispanic lives, it’s like -- you gonna go to college? It’s like, you finished college? [00:55:00] And the double-take even gets bigger. Why, cause I’m Puerto Rican, I’m not allowed to go school. (laughs) And that’s the way we looked at it. And I’m pretty sure, I don’t know about you, but (inaudible). You know, I remember my friends, Cel, you’re going to school? I says yeah, is that okay? How did you get in? What you doing? You know, I just went and applied and take a test. It’s not like you gotta go in there and applying for job, cause the process of going to school is to learn, so how could they expect for you to know? And that was my concept of -- you know, why am I going to school? Because I don’t know what I 36 �want to do, and you need to teach me, when you go to college. It’s the same way when you go to vocational school. If you knew what you were going to do, why go to these schools, you know? I can go fix a car, if I knew how to fix it, but I don’t. An airplane, you know, my brother went to Air Force, and he came back. JJ: Your brother went to the Air Force? CR: Yes, and he become a aerospace engineer. [00:56:00] And he does, he got out of that. JJ: Is that Nelson? CR: Nelson, yeah. And Jose worked for Union Ditson [Tracking?] Company the one on Sheffield and Dickens, one of the hardest places to work. And when he told us that he got a job there, I told him, you got hire at Union Ditson? And he goes, yeah, why, Cel? I says no, no, I just -- I was just really surprised. JJ: You mentioned Willow and Fremont and was there -- did your grandfather have a barber or (inaudible)? CR: Absolutely, he had it on the basement of -- JJ: (inaudible)? CR: Yeah, those are things I’ll never forget. You know, that was his way of making money. We got the house, my mom got the house, and I have to tell you this, because it was -- she also used to go and clean this office. And it was the lawyer [00:57:00] who told her, Angie, you have your home yet? And she goes, no, I don’t have the money to put down on it. He says, well why don’t you find a place? And she goes -- so she did, and it was on Fremont right off of Bissell. And he was the one who gave her the $500, at that time it was a ton of money. 37 �Gave her the money for the down payment. And he trusted her enough, because he knew that he was going to work, paid her back by, off payment and you know, she was still working on Carbit [Camp?] company. And we rented the top floor, we lived on the first floor, and then my grandfather made a barber shop on the lower level. And he used to cut hair, he used to cut all our high school friends cause of the ROTC program. JJ: I got my hair cut there too -- CR: (laughs) It’s amazing history. He would be there, about from eight o’clock or nine or ten o’clock, he never said no to -- JJ: What’s his name? CR: My grandfather’s name? Gregory, Gregorio, yeah. And he had such a clientele [00:58:00] that just grew up. And my grandmother lived upstairs, so we had to make sure that we had his breakfast in the morning, lunch, and it was a big porch, and we used to hang around. When you talk about it now -- JJ: You had a rollercoaster (inaudible) -- CR: Yes, my brother Nelson -- (laughs). JJ: (inaudible) CR: Now that you mention it, yeah, that’s great. JJ: So (inaudible)? CR: My brother Nelson was such a creative guy. And he says, we got to find a way to make money. And you know in Chicago, the backyards were huge, and the big porches were huge. So he built a rollercoaster from the alley stairwell going up, all the way to the porch, and he would charge two cents. And at that time, if you 38 �brought your Coca-Cola bottles back to the store, you got two cents for the small bottles and five cents for the big ones. So he would accept bottles from the kids, and he would put them in the box. And he would just [00:59:00] let you go down, and then he would let you come back. JJ: And how did it look? (inaudible) CR: It was just one big ramp going down. I would say maybe 50 feet, and then 50 feet, it leveled off, and then it goes up about 10 feet, cause it landed right back on our porch. That’s where you would -- he made a wooden cart with roller skate wheels. He put ’em -- JJ: The roller skate (inaudible)? CR: Yes, he made a frame, and he screwed them on, and then he put a backboard on the board. Then you just put your two feet, and he just let you go. JJ: No seatbelt or anything? CR: No. (laughs) There was no safety. Even if you fell off, you knew the consequences. Kids never complained, they just loved the fact that (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, you know, and you look at-- JJ: And the neighborhood, all the neighborhood kids -- CR: Every one of ’em, and that was -- JJ: (inaudible) I knew my mother sold (inaudible). CR: Yes. JJ: A lot of families (inaudible) their own (inaudible) extra money. 39 �CR: Just to make [01:00:00] extra money. And we had a Black gentleman who lived right next door, who (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible) I know that (inaudible) school (inaudible). (inaudible) CR: (inaudible) you know our history. We used to work for him, we used to work selling tamales. In the summer, we used to sell snowcones. JJ: (inaudible). CR: Yeah, he would pay us a couple dollars here and there. I mean, people don’t realize, you know, I was working when it was eight, nine years old, the plastic company on the (inaudible). JJ: He would pay for you for work? CR: He would pay us for working, maybe 25 cents, but to us, that was a lot of money. I mean we used to buy a tamale for five cents. JJ: And that was in the Black community (inaudible) -- CR: That’s right, when that neighborhood changed from German to Black, and then we were the only few Hispanics. It was me -- our families, our cousins. Arsenio lived down the street. Pantojas just lived down -- we were, (inaudible) we weren’t gonna move. JJ: (inaudible)? [01:01:00] CR: Yes, we weren’t gonna move. And so we grew up with, and we were never really bothered by the Black people. So it was -- I made good friends with the Brooks’ families, the [Harby?], the Black girls across the street, Delilah, who’s a mean, mean girl. JJ: And then, Orlando, where did he live? 40 �CR: Orlando lived -- JJ: And his family, didn’t they live on Bissell and (inaudible) -- CR: On Bissell and Willow, right, that corner used to be a laundromat. And he -- they used to live on top. JJ: So everybody kind of lived on -- CR: Yes. JJ: -- on Willow Street, Halsted, Dayton, Fremont. CR: Willow, Dayton. Yeah cause Willow -- Bissell this way, Fremont, Willow. Then you got Dayton, and then you got Halsted. Then you had Burling, Orchard. You walked down there like if you were -- JJ: Like a line. CR: Yeah, it was your town. JJ: And then it just moved slowly up. CR: Yes. JJ: To, before Armitage. CR: Yes. JJ: So it was like a line from North Avenue (inaudible) -- CR: Yes. JJ: -- isn’t that correct? CR: Yes, you’re right. [01:02:00] JJ: And then it went to Willow, and then from Willow it goes (inaudible) -- CR: And all the way to Larrabee. JJ: And (inaudible). 41 �CR: That’s when everything -- JJ: All the way to Larrabee -- CR: Yes, I’d still say there’s some good memories. And when you talk about it now the way we talk about it, it was probably the best part of our lives. And the excitement, the changes. And today, you see people doing the same thing, but with more discipline. JJ: There was also a club, right, out of Dayton and Armitage, that belonged to -- I think Orlando’s family was part of it. CR: His father. JJ: Was it his father? CR: He owned that club over there on Dayton and Willow. JJ: Was that his father? CR: Yeah, that was -- (inaudible) JJ: (inaudible) CR: -- Arsenio owned it. And -- JJ: Arsenio, but that’s not Orlando’s father? CR: No, but Arsenio and them owned it together. There was three of them. And that’s where Arsenio shot somebody there. Yeah, cause (inaudible), [01:03:00] and -- JJ: (inaudible)? CR: Yeah. But -- cause -- (inaudible) JJ: (inaudible) was it Hacha Viejas or something? Some of them hung around there. CR: Yes. 42 �JJ: Did you know them, or -- CR: I don’t know (inaudible) you call each other or no, but Orlando I know real good, and his brother, yeah. JJ: But you know (inaudible), okay, (inaudible). CR: But there was, if you remember Mario, Mario’s on Halsted? JJ: Yeah, Mario, (inaudible). (inaudible). CR: (inaudible) JJ: Are they related or no? CR: Yeah, Luis Rivera is Mario’s son at that time. JJ: Oh yeah, (inaudible), related to your family? CR: No, not at all. JJ: (inaudible) CR: (inaudible), they’re from (inaudible). But we got along very well. Luri was a real tough kid, so. (laughs) A well-dressed tough kid, (inaudible). (laughs) (inaudible) JJ: He’s got a restaurant now or something. CR: He does. And then the Carmen Figueroa was there, [Leila?] was there. (inaudible) [01:04:00] (inaudible) you guys were there on Dayton and Willow on the other side, as you walk out of there, there’s just a lot of people that we knew. It was really good. JJ: (inaudible) kept moving up. CR: Yes. JJ: And I think everybody kind of moved in there around the same time. 43 �CR: Oh yeah, cause we grew up a lot, and we’re almost all, you know, same grade school, same high school. JJ: (inaudible) in ’56, because my father had a ’55 car. CR: Yeah, well we were there ’54, and my first (inaudible) -- JJ: Yeah, you went in (inaudible). CR: (inaudible) Mi mama bought was ’56 or ’54 Chevy. JJ: (inaudible) brother, (inaudible)? CR: (inaudible) butcher shop, La Polleria. JJ: (inaudible) did you work there? CR: Yeah I worked there for -- JJ: So can you describe that -- CR: Oh that’s -- and again, you know -- JJ: Recent one -- CR: And doing a lot of separation, the owner was Jewish. But you know, today, even today, I thought he was probably the [01:05:00] closest person to us because he hired all of us. You know, we all worked. Nelson worked, David worked, Joe worked, I was the last one who worked. David’s son -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, and David’s son -- worked there. JJ: And it was called La Polleria? CR: La Polleria, yeah, and he (inaudible) -- live chicken, live ducks, rabbits, and whatever was left -- JJ: You killed them right there? 44 �CR: Yeah, we killed them there, cleaned them there. JJ: Why didn’t people want (inaudible)? CR: Probably because he had -- a real rotation people who were really (inaudible), because we had a clientele, there was a lot of restaurants. Martinez, and then we had Ramsey Lewis’ mom who lived right there on, at, I want to say Orchard and North Avenue, and she was coming back 30, 40 -- young pullets or young chickens. And she would never go in, and she would ask us to go around because she couldn’t stand the stench from the chicken. [01:06:00] And it was great, and whatever was left over, he used to give it to us and take home. He would pick us up, because, you know, we didn’t drive, and drive us home. So sometimes, you know, I sit here, or even today I talk to people and go, I still have my prejudices. You know, I’m not -- I don’t like prejudice, a lot of people don’t understand that word, prejudice just means you don’t like, and that I didn’t like. But this man, I loved, because -- and yet it was difficult for me, though I know that he was Jewish and white, that I knew that that person was a different part of my life, cause he treated us like the way we’re supposed to be treated. And then when you cross over the line over on Halsted, past Armitage up to the other side, you knew that you had to watch yourself. JJ: Past Armitage, so there was -- CR: Yeah, Belden, north -- JJ: They didn’t let you -- CR: No, they didn’t like -- JJ: -- (inaudible) Puerto Ricans? 45 �CR: -- no, because that was still part of their -- we’re -- [01:07:00] JJ: So up to Armitage (inaudible) -- CR: Yeah, we were going into the -- wrong way, you want to come back this way. JJ: I remember on Willow and -- but it could have been before you were -- I mean, you were just going on -- CR: Yeah. JJ: But on Willow and Dayton, there was the Dayton Street Boys, I remember that. CR: Yeah, and then they had the -- JJ: Did you meet –- know any of them? CR: No, and then I remember the Folk Music -- the Folk Song Music Guitar Shop was there, forever, yeah. It was there when we were walking on the streets. But nobody -- they didn’t bother nobody, nobody bothered them. They just want to know how to play guitar. I had a friend who went there to play guitar, so you know. He’s just, (inaudible). JJ: Just like a little (inaudible) Dayton Street Boys? CR: Yes. The Dayton -- JJ: Orlando had a fight with them, that’s how it started. CR: Yes, yeah. JJ: So what else (inaudible) --? CR: What was that? JJ: What else did the Continentals do? [01:08:00] 46 �CR: Well the Continentals were -- you know, they mostly was at sporting events, you know, we lived at Lincoln Boys Club, and of course, North -- what’s that place on North Avenue by Wells Street, there was a church there. JJ: Old Town over there? CR: Oh yeah, Old Town we used to hang around -- JJ: (inaudible) by Wells Street? CR: Yeah, we used to hang around, right on the corner before Wells Street, there was a church. So we used to play softball in the back park. And it’s still there. JJ: (inaudible) CR: And there’s where -- we used to hang around most of the time. And then, Lincoln Park, Lincoln Boys Club was another place, cause we played a lot of ball there. JJ: So they were part of the Triangle Association. They had their own little center. CR: Oh yeah, yes, absolutely, and -- JJ: That takes me to another thing. So the Triangle Association, and some of the other neighborhood associations, they came up with a plan to [01:09:00] -- which you kind of touched on it before, to get rid of the Latinos (inaudible) -- CR: Oh yes, absolutely. And -- JJ: How did that affect -- CR: Well, it affect really us -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: -- it affected us in a sense that our -- I want to say our common area was getting depleted. JJ: Was what? 47 �CR: Depleted, it was just being, slowly but surely moved away to a point where -- JJ: I mean, did you think, some people thought it was an improvement. CR: It’s an improvement -- JJ: I mean some of our people (inaudible) our parents, some of our parents thought it was a good thing. CR: Yeah, but eventually, how many -- JJ: I mean, (inaudible) -- without me putting words (inaudible) -- CR: No, you’re not putting words in my mouth -- JJ: -- I want to know what you thought about it-- CR: I personally thought about it, that the improvement was, just strictly, and, oh wow, look, the street looks nice. [01:10:00] Hey, but you know what, what happened to the Nieves family who lived down the street down there? You know, their house is getting remodeled and (inaudible), but they don’t live there anymore. Santino family, the Dominguez family across the street from us, David Montoya?, I go, hey Dave, what’s going on? My dad sold the house. Why? They offered him money, and da-da-da. Then -- we never sold. We didn’t sell until my mom died in ’85. And our building’s still up, but you know, and our next-door neighbors, the Borgias, the girl Martha, her parents just, I’m not selling. When I sell, I’m getting ready to sell -- JJ: (inaudible)? CR: Oh yeah. Well we didn’t -- JJ: And your parents didn’t want to sell? CR: No, my mom didn’t sell. 48 �JJ: But she just (inaudible) -- CR: She passed away there, and we -- and the only reason -- JJ: Why was she adamant that she didn’t(inaudible)? CR: Because it was changing the culture of the neighborhood. JJ: So she wanted to keep the culture? CR: Oh yeah, absolutely. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Oh yeah, she didn’t -- JJ: Amazingly, I mean -- CR: She didn’t want [01:11:00] McNamara to move next door. She liked the way -Rodriguez sounds. JJ: Is that why she wanted to stay? CR: Absolutely. And I’m saying it now, just a simple life. You can’t be something, another color, that you think it is, and it’s not. See Cha-Cha, you live, even today when we moved -- when I moved in here, these people (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible) very strong. CR: Oh yeah. JJ: In terms of their culture, they wanted (inaudible). CR: Absolutely, yeah. JJ: And nobody paid attention to (inaudible) -- CR: No. Look what’s happening in Humboldt Park. They wanted to knock the flag down. Oh, there was going to be a war about that flag. And you know that, and I know. A lot of people don’t know that you just -- it’s not an ego thing, it’s a pride, 49 �it’s in the heart. You got people caring about what they are and what they do. I made sure that my kids never forgot how to speak Spanish. I sent them to Puerto Rico for a year to go to school and work. I said, no, you will talk, you’ll learn your culture, period. That’s just what life is [01:12:00] all about. Now I don’t care what they do with their kids, because it's a different world. But with me, my grandmother, and you know my family, my grandmother wouldn’t allow us to talk English at the dinner table. It was a smack to the jaw. Yeah, don’t talk to me in English. And I still -- see that, where people get aggravated -- like the Hindu people population’s getting big now in our schools, and us. But you still see it when you say, hey, you’re in America. Yeah, the land of the free. Why are you -- is it only the land of the free when it doesn’t affect you? Or because other people are doing something different that you don’t do? And that’s -- to understand what we do, you don’t understand our language, our habits, our cultures. It’s hard. JJ: So David Pantoja and all these people, do you still see them? CR: I see [01:13:00] David, yeah. JJ: And where do they live? CR: David lives on Montana and -- in Central Park. Jose lives in Arkansas, which I’m gonna see this, he’s gonna come up here at the end of the year. Who else do I know that goes down there? My uncle still live on Fremont. JJ: On Fremont? CR: Yeah, my mother’s brothers, in Lincoln Park. JJ: They’re still living there? 50 �CR: Yeah, and -- JJ: Does anyone else? CR: Yeah, and -- JJ: And he hasn’t sold it? CR: No, and [Martha Rovinas?], she’s in Puerto Rico, but her brother still lives on Sheffield off of Halsted, two of those (inaudible) buildings. So we -- those are people they knew that that’s what their life was. You know, and but [Ishmael?] lives in [Latport?]. But his property is there, but his family lives there, his sons live there. He’s just -- I’m not renting into -- I hate to say this, I’m not (inaudible) anybody else that’s not in my family, [01:14:00] to say it nicely. JJ: (inaudible) like the majority of the people, where did they go to? After Lincoln Park? CR: A lot of them went up north. A few went to Puerto Rico, [Ishmael?] (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, other -- and a couple went out to the suburbs. I went out to the suburbs. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Then I moved back here, which I like a lot. But there’s a lot of people still living in Chicago. JJ: When they went to the suburbs, they went to the real expensive neighborhoods? CR: No, they just -- in Chicago, to me, there was really no expensive neighborhood. It was a culture neighborhood. Because they can’t charge you any more than the other guy who got the money for it, yeah. And I think they still -- JJ: (inaudible) culture. 51 �CR: Oh yes, well that’s big. You know, and my kids -- JJ: And this developed in Lincoln Park (inaudible). CR: Yes, very strong. And even though it’s the youngest one, and I live -- today I have more respect [01:15:00] for what you guys did, because I was too young to understand what you were doing. But to see what’s going on today, I recollect, oh this is the same issues that we had 50 years ago, see? And that’s what’s sad. It doesn’t change. JJ: What are some final thoughts? For, you know, people that are gonna see this, it’s a permanent thing, so their family are gonna see this(inaudible) -- CR: I would personally let my friends know that this has happened, and when it comes out, I want you guys to let me know. And they’ll probably say, oh, why didn’t you call us, we would have gave some of our opinions. And David still thinks the same way. Jose was a firm believer, because he used to be with you guys, and with us, and I love Jose, and now he’s [01:16:00] in Arkansas, and he was one of the biggest, firm believers that it’s going to be very, very difficult to change the culture. And some of my friends have moved to Arizona, Eddie Sanchez lives in Florida, we’ll see them. And I still think today that we have a very long way to go, and the long way is that the school system has to change, because in my time, they separated the cultures, and they set them up to fail, not to succeed. And I believe that. I still do, yes. JJ: All right, thank you very much, I appreciate that. END OF VIDEO FILE 52 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01bf2443095370292c5e3f297388e58b.mp4 3593f80027509a286144b26b590dd9cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Celso Rivera vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Celso Rivera, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 03/28/2011 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivera_Celso Title A name given to the resource Celso Rivera video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rivera, Celso Description An account of the resource Oral history of Celso Rivera, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 03/28/2011 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c087142da5a69e3c13e7c14990ea6dcd.pdf b2dbbbacfc64bf7ca2c38ad76da2f9be PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Maria Aviles Interviewers: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 9/27/2018 Runtime: 01:01:38 Biography and Description Maria Isabel de la Torre (maiden name), Maria Isabel Aviles (married name), was born in Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico. She arrived in the US in 1954 to Rochester, NY, and migrated to Chicago in 1958. Her parents were Josephina Davila Vazquez and Victor Manuel de la Torre. They remained in Puerto Rico. She is one of four siblings which lived at 625 W. Webster in the Lincoln Park Neighborhood for about eight years. The family then moved to the Lake View area. Her work experience included administrative work with medical records, hospital admissions and translation (10 years); and retail. She became the co-owner of Gaslight with her husband Wilfredo, and also retired in 2008. Maria is the proud mother of four accomplished children. She describes the abundance of local dances all over Lincoln Park and the adjacent Lakeview neighborhood which was the same barrio for Latinos that stretched from North Avenue to Irving Park and between Clark Street to Racine in the late 1950’s and 1960’s. �Transcript JOSE JIMINEZ: Just start with your name, the date you were born, and where you were born. MARIA AVILES: My name is Maria Aviles. I was born 11/21/47. I’m from Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay. And who were your parents? MA: My mother was Josephina [Bache?] Davila. My father, Victor Manuel de la Torre. JJ: de la Torre? MA: Mmm-hmm. JJ: And how many -- MA: (Spanish)? [00:00:32] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:00:33] MA: I have one brother, the youngest. I’m the oldest. There’s five of us. JJ: What’s your brother’s name? MA: Alan. We call him [Papo?]. You know how that is. Papo. JJ: With the nicknames, yeah. Okay. MA: And then after me is another -- there’s three girls and one boy and myself. JJ: Right. And what’s your name? MA: Okay. [00:01:00] I’m the oldest, and it’s Maria de los Angeles. My mother named us. Then, there’s Yvonne, Marie, Josephine, and Alan. JJ: Maria de los Angeles. So your mother named you (Spanish). [00:01:13] MA: I guess, yeah. (Spanish) [00:01:16] Maria de los Angeles. 1 �JJ: (Spanish)? [00:01:21] MA: (Spanish). [00:01:24] I don’t know. Don’t ask me why. JJ: Oh, don’t ask you why? Okay. MA: I find that a little silly, but that was her wish, you know. JJ: She wanted everybody to be Mary? MA: Yeah, Mary, but we all have nicknames too. I’m Betty. (laughs) JJ: Okay, you’re Betty. MA: From Maria, I went to Betty. And then my sister has a very odd name. Her nickname is [Changele?]. Never heard of it. Then, the next one -- well, no, Yvonne has always stayed with her same name. Then, Josephine is Cookie, and then my brother, Alan -- he’s Papo, so [00:02:00] you know how... JJ: So (Spanish) --? [00:02:03] MA: It doesn’t matter. JJ: Okay. But Maria? MA: Maria, (Spanish) [00:02:08] because everybody, you know... JJ: Okay. So, Maria, did you say what year you came? MA: Oh, lord, that’s gonna be a little hard. I came to -- JJ: (inaudible) MA: -- Rochester, New York first. I was about six years old, and -- JJ: So what year was that about? MA: (laughs) In the ’50s. JJ: In the ’50s? MA: I would say, yeah. 2 �JJ: Fifty-two, ’53? MA: Yeah. I was six, so yeah. JJ: Yeah, you were born ’47, so I would think ’53? MA: But Rochester, New York -- there was hardly any Latinos. There were no Puerto Ricans. It was a very close-knit community ’cause there were hardly any Puerto Ricans, so when I went to school, I didn’t know the [00:03:00] language. And it was horrible, that I remember. JJ: So you spoke only Spanish when you came? MA: At that time, yeah. I mean, I’d go to school, and the kids would steal my lunch, (laughs) and I couldn’t say anything. And then we went to a Catholic school, and the nuns were not very nice. You know, they expected you to speak the language. How could I speak a language if I wasn’t, you know, there to speak it? And then also, I always remember I was the -- after I learned the language, I always had to go with my mom to the doctor so we can translate and, you know - JJ: So you were the translator? MA: Right, mm-hmm. Correct. JJ: So your mother didn’t speak anything? MA: At that time, no. You know, the kids learned it faster, and there were -- JJ: So you were the translator. MA: -- no bilingual schools either. JJ: You just needed somebody to translate it, you know. MA: You wouldn’t find anybody that spoke Spanish in Rochester, New York. 3 �JJ: So how long did you live in Rochester? MA: Oh, I would say about two years [00:04:00] maybe -- JJ: Two years? MA: -- then I came to Chicago. JJ: Okay. So the nuns -- you had a problem with them, or they had a problem. MA: With us, yeah. JJ: And then -- MA: We came to Chicago. JJ: -- you were the translator for your mother, and then you came -- MA: But then she learned the language when I -- JJ: So why did you come to Chicago? MA: ’Cause they wanted a better life and, like I said, almost all my mother’s family lived here, aunts and uncles, you know. ’Cause in Rochester, we didn’t have anybody. JJ: Okay. So where did you live when you came to Chicago? MA: We lived on Lincoln Avenue. JJ: Okay, you came straight to Lincoln Avenue? MA: Yeah, I remember the -- JJ: And that was about what, ’53, you said? Fifty-four? MA: Yeah, it could be, or maybe, you know, a little later, ’55. I was in fourth grade, so maybe, yeah. But the thing was we lived in a one-room apartment. JJ: On Lincoln Avenue? MA: On Lincoln Avenue. 4 �JJ: And what other street? MA: [00:05:00] Oh, God, what is that? JJ: Were you on Halsted, or...? MA: Near Clark? Does -- JJ: Okay, Lincoln and up there by Clark. MA: Near there. I don’t know if you remember Augustana Hospital. Many moons ago, that hospital -- I don’t know if you know -- JJ: Where was Augustana? Was that -- MA: It used to be. JJ: -- closer to...? MA: It’s no longer. It was somewhere near Lincoln Avenue, I remember, Augustana. JJ: And was it closer to [Bell?] Lake? MA: Pardon me? JJ: Was it by the lake? MA: Almost, yeah, I would say, because my mother -- after we settled, we used to go to -- JJ: Oh, no, Lincoln Avenue. Augustana’s over by Armitage. MA: Okay, how, you know -- JJ: Sedgwick and Armitage. MA: Right, around there. JJ: By Old Town, okay. MA: Right. And from there, we moved to -- at that time, it was a rented apartment with furniture. 5 �JJ: Yeah, you were right around Armitage. You were over there on Clark. You said Clark, right? MA: Yeah. Then, we moved to [00:06:00] 625 West Webster; Lincoln and Webster and Halsted. Webster was the street. JJ: And this was in the ’50s? MA: Yeah, ’50s. Then, I went to Lincoln School on -- I don’t know if you remember that. JJ: Yeah, I know where that school is. MA: And then I went to Saint Clement’s Catholic Church. JJ: I don’t know where that’s at [or by?]. MA: Well, there was hardly -- I used to walk on my own, but when my -- JJ: So you told us the school. You went kinda fast. You need water? MA: No, that’s okay. JJ: And don’t worry, you can stop at any -- MA: No, we went to Lincoln School. That was mainly where I graduated eighth grade, and then I went to [Waller?] from -- JJ: So if we could kind of backtrack a little bit, what do you remember of Lincoln School? MA: Well, again, there were a lot of Latinos [00:07:00] at that time ’cause Webster and Halsted was all Latinos at that time. We used to go to St. Vincent de Paul Church. DePaul University had a basketball -- I don’t know if it’s still there. JJ: Yeah, it’s still there. 6 �MA: And my girlfriend and I, when we were in high school -- almost every Friday, they had a game. We’d go there just to go, you know what I mean? A girl thing. Once I turned 15, 16, we had a routine. Friday, we’d do a little shopping. We’d go dancing on Saturday, and Sunday, we’d go to (Spanish) [00:07:41] or San Juan Theatre. See, nobody remembers those. JJ: No, I remember the San Juan. MA: No, I was saying, you know, I think that should’ve been left alone, the San Juan. JJ: So you and your friend went to that. Were there other friends, any particular friends? MA: Oh, yeah, we all had -- [00:08:00] and my sisters -- JJ: Were they Spanish? MA: We all got together on the bus -- JJ: Were they Spanish too? MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish). [00:08:04] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:08:05] MA: Yes. JJ: Okay. So did you guys go to the YMCA too or anything to the dances? MA: Well, once in a while -- when I went to those dances, they invited us. But mainly, my sister -- that’s me, her -- JJ: ’Cause that was a different crowd. It seemed very different. MA: Right. We used to go a lot to -- oh, God, what’s the name of that -- Northwest Hall. JJ: Oh, yeah, I remember Northwest Hall. 7 �MA: Northwest Hall and Crystal Ballroom. JJ: Oh, the Crystal -- okay, I remember -- WILFREDO AVILES: I remember it. JJ: -- it now. (laughter) You remember it? I didn’t know if -- MA: He was in the service, so -- JJ: Oh, don’t say that. MA: I don’t wanna tell you the story. One time, I called the men, and they told me he was somewhere else. I said, “I’m not sitting at home,” [00:09:00] so my -- JJ: I [would?] go from Washington over to Northwest Hall. MA: Yeah, Northwest Hall -- JJ: Yeah, we used to go before that. MA: -- Crystal Ballroom. JJ: The Crystal Ballroom. MA: Those were the two ones. JJ: Those were the main places? Okay. MA: Right, and St. Michael’s. JJ: Yeah, and St. Michael’s. MA: And you know what? As women, we could get on the bus. No one bothered you. We all got on the bus and went to the dances all the way to North Avenue from Webster -- think about the trip -- all of us all decked out. We danced with everybody. It was very respectful. We didn’t look at the guy. If he was big, little -- you know, we just danced. We had a good time -- JJ: ’Cause there were a lot of dances at that -- 8 �MA: -- and then we went back home on the bus. That was it. JJ: ’Cause there were a lot of dances -- MA: Right. JJ: -- at that time. What year was it? MA: Oh, God -- JJ: About? MA: -- the ’60s. JJ: The ’60s. Sixty-one? MA: Sixty-two, maybe. JJ: Sixty-three? MA: No, that was grammar school. WA: Sixty-five. JJ: Sixty-five. MA: Sixty-five, around there, yeah. JJ: Sixty-five. MA: When we were in high school. And, you know, there was no -- JJ: This -- MA: -- IDs for drinks. [00:10:00] We didn’t drink, but I don’t remember anyone ever asking us for an ID, you know, never. When we went to the clubs, it was -- JJ: What kind of music? MA: Oh, salsa, merengue, you know. That’s what we -- JJ: No English music? MA: No, not at that time. 9 �JJ: Never? MA: I used to do the English at school when they had high school dances at Walter, or the YMCA. JJ: But you went with your friends to the Spanish dances? MA: Right. JJ: And it was the Crystal -- MA: And then also, I had a girlfriend, Lydia [Laboy?]. I don’t know if you know -- JJ: Oh, Lydia, yes. MA: Laboy and her -- JJ: The Laboy family. MA: We used to go to dances a lot together, mm-hmm, and then we’d go to the Spanish. And then when they had the Christmas dances at school -- we did both. JJ: Did you go to the -- there was dances at -- where was that [one?]? The Imperial Aces and Queens had dances on Dayton. WA: Imperial Aces? JJ: In the basement. Remember The Imperial? That was (Spanish) [00:10:59] were part of that. MA: That? [00:11:00] No. They were younger to me. WA: Yeah, I don’t know them. JJ: But I mean, they were a club by that time. MA: No, I never -- JJ: So St. Vincent is a different crowd? 10 �MA: Right. JJ: Different kind of crowd. That was not a club. WA: St. Vincent had -- JJ: But I’m just saying that there were dances at the church on [Clark and?] -- MA: Oh, yeah, we went to the church dances. JJ: And there was another place on Webster. MA: Mm-hmm. We got married there, [Swiss Hall?]. JJ: Was it Swiss Hall? MA: Yes, sir. JJ: That was the name of the [venue?]? WA: It used to be a donut shop or something. JJ: That’s right, Clyde’s Donuts, yeah. MA: My mother worked at Clyde’s. JJ: That was the donuts they used to give us every day. (laughter) WA: [That was the old days?]. MA: See, all my family lived on Webster. My aunt lived on one floor. My mother lived on another floor. Next door was my other aunt. You know, everybody lived there. JJ: By Clark? MA: No, Webster near -- WA: Right, that’s -- MA: -- Waller High School. JJ: Oh, by Waller. 11 �WA: Lincoln, maybe. MA: Yeah, Lincoln. WA: Lincoln and Webster. JJ: Lincoln and Webster, right around there? MA: Yeah, and my mother worked at Grant Hospital. [00:12:00] Yeah, she worked there. I have a lot of memories. And then she would take us to North Avenue Beach. That was the spot to all the Puerto Ricans. That’s all you saw there. I don’t know. JJ: What was that like at North Avenue Beach? ’Cause I mean, if somebody had -- MA: You felt at home because, you know, you saw everybody, more or less, that you knew in the summer. My mother used to walk us from Webster to North Avenue over the bridge to the beach, but we had to clean the house before we left. (laughs) That’s the way it was, you know. Like you said -- JJ: Okay, so you had to clean the house. So, you know, the women, basically, in the neighborhood -- MA: I resented every moment. (laughs) JJ: No, we basically saw them only at the dances, so were they kept at home? MA: Oh, sure, are you kidding? You couldn’t even laugh. JJ: I’m leading you on. MA: Well, at least with -- JJ: I don’t wanna lead you on or anything. I don’t want -- MA: [00:13:00] No, but we as women, Spanish, Puerto Rican, at least my mother -- JJ: What was that like growing up as a woman at that -- 12 �MA: You couldn’t do this. You couldn’t do that. You know, you couldn’t go out with guys like that like today. Are you kidding? I had to be home by 9:00. My mother never let us stay overnight at anybody’s home, even upstairs. My cousins lived upstairs. You didn’t go up and stay overnight. That’s the way it was in those days, and you only went out with her, the girls, you know. That was -- JJ: With your mother? MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: So the girls only went out with her? MA: At that time, mm-hmm. It was very different. And then I had a job at Children’s Memorial Hospital. I worked in the kitchen while I was in high school, almost all of my four years of [00:14:00] high school, and -- JJ: So you were cooking? What were you doing? MA: Well, every floor there -- not anymore, but they used to bring these big carts with the food, and then you distribute it to each floor. JJ: Oh, okay, to the rooms and that? MA: Mm-hmm, yeah. JJ: And you did that for a while. What other jobs did you do? MA: Oh, wow. I worked at Montgomery Wards Catalog where you took orders over the phone. I did that. I did the Kelly Girl -- I don’t know if you remember Kelly Girl. JJ: I heard the name. MA: Let’s say someone needed someone in the office for a month to do stuff. Then, you would go and file or answer phones. I did that. And then what else did I do? 13 �Babysat, stuff like that, then I worked at Frank Cuneo Hospital. I don’t know if you knew that one. JJ: I heard the name of that one, [00:15:00] yeah. MA: I worked there; it’s a Catholic hospital. I worked there, mainly, 15 years. JJ: Okay. So what did you do there at -- MA: I was an admitting clerk and did medical records. Mainly, I was more -- JJ: A secretary for the -- MA: They needed a bilingual person, and you know, I got the job. JJ: But 15 years, so that was pretty good. Good pay and everything? It was pretty...? MA: Oh, no, I’m telling you I got good pay there at that time. I couldn’t complain, yeah. But I remember, you know, times were very different from today. JJ: In what way? MA: Well, you know, you respected your parents. You couldn’t even talk -- in the old days, your mother would tell you, “We’re going to visit so-and-so. You sit there. If you want to use the bathroom, you let me know.” (laughs) [00:16:00] Today, kids take over the house. You know, I don’t know. Maybe I’m wrong, but it was very different whether or not -- WA: This would never [be there?] today. JJ: What do you mean? You’d just sit there even if you had to use the bathroom? MA: That’s right. Unless she talked to you, you couldn’t get up. JJ: Do you think that was good, or today is better? MA: It was horrible. (laughter) 14 �JJ: I mean, I don’t know. I’m not gonna judge it. MA: It was horrible. You know, and then we went to Puerto Rico to visit, you know, my grandmother and that; also very strict, you know. You can’t do that. You can’t do this. Today, the kids walk in the house like it’s nothing. JJ: So you think your mother learned from your grandmother? MA: Oh, sure. My grandmother was a tyrant. (laughs) JJ: And your daughter doesn’t [pay attention?]? MA: Well, they respected us, but I don’t think I was as strict, you know. [00:17:00] (laughs) Well, in some respects, yeah, because our culture -- my oldest daughter wanted to go to the mall all the time, and I told her, “You’re not going to the mall, I’m sorry.” You know, you would go to the mall, and today, the kids go somewhere else. Who knows where they go? So I already saw that, you know, so they would get upset at me. But it’s very different, the bringing up. JJ: And you mentioned your brothers, so you mentioned your brothers’ names too, right? MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: So how were you with your brothers? MA: Well, I was the oldest, so I had to take care of these kids. (laughs) And I’m not gonna say names. There was one that would be horrible. She would make fun of me. “Oh, you have to do this.” “I don’t have to,” you know, things like that. And my [00:18:00] mother worked Saturday and Sunday at a hospital, so I had to take care of them. And then my great-aunt lived upstairs, so she would call my mother when we got into, you know, fights and that, I’ll be honest with you. It 15 �was horrible, you know. Then, when my mother got home, oh, heaven forbid. You know, you were responsible. JJ: Did your mother always work, or...? MA: Oh, yeah. My mother worked until -- JJ: She had a lot of hours [she had to?] -- MA: My God, after she retired, she worked. A practical nurse, she was, mm-hmm. And for the -- JJ: And, you know, you mentioned about translating. MA: Mm-hmm. And then she -- JJ: And you mentioned that you had to take her to the -- MA: Yeah, at the beginning. JJ: Okay, so that would -- MA: And then she -- JJ: Most of your life? MA: Well -- JJ: You were like her assistant, you know, trying to... MA: But it was very different. I mean, [00:19:00] I respected my mother. Let’s put it that way because my father lived in Puerto Rico, and my mother remarried. So, you know, whatever she told me, that was it, you know? My other sister -- JJ: You wanna share about what she told you? MA: Oh, no, she would tell me you can’t laugh at -- JJ: And they split up, you know, with the -- 16 �MA: Oh, yeah. (Spanish)? [00:19:31] My mother was a very hard worker. That, I must say about her, a very hard worker. She would make me laugh because -now, I laugh; I used to cry. She used to comb our hair the night before, and it better be like that when you woke up in the morning. (laughs) Can you imagine? Oh, my God. But she would leave your breakfast. She was very, you know, homebodied, [00:20:00] yeah. JJ: But then she left, and then you were in charge of them? MA: Right. You know, when you got out of school, I had to make sure -- and I have a sister that was horrible. She was very defiant. I was the nerd, and she was, you know -- we won’t say who she... (laughs) JJ: So what sort of things did you do with your sister? With your brothers and sisters, what sort of -- MA: Well, we had chores, you know, when my mother was working. JJ: What kinda chores? I mean, that you -- MA: Clean the house. Clean the bathroom. Make sure all the stuff is done, but there was one that always made fun ’cause if they didn’t do it, I had to do it. ’Cause then when my mother got home, I’m the one, you know? JJ: What about in terms of games and that sort of -- what are the -- MA: Oh, no, we played, at that time, the jump-roping. [00:21:00] Some of the Spanish games, I don’t even remember anymore, but -- (Spanish)? [00:21:04] JJ: (Spanish) [00:21:07] [You played?] (inaudible)? MA: Oh, yeah. JJ: You played it in your house, that stuff? 17 �MA: Oh, yeah, bingo. We played -- JJ: It wasn’t legal. MA: Pardon? JJ: It wasn’t legal. MA: I know, but it was played. I had an aunt that loved that game, and she played it all the time. JJ: But did people come over for it? MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish). [00:21:24] JJ: Oh, (Spanish)? [00:21:26] So the (Spanish) [00:21:30] would come and sell you numbers? MA: (Spanish). [00:21:31] JJ: With the numbers and everything? MA: Oh, (Spanish), [00:21:34] and (Spanish) [00:21:35] [Don Taco?] was his name. I always remember him when I was a kid. He would come. “(Spanish)?” [00:21:42] And then he’d take ’em out of his sleeves. (laughter) JJ: And then he told you your dream? MA: You picked a number. JJ: Did he tell you about your dream and all that? MA: Oh, yeah, and that was always (Spanish). [00:21:56] It never came out, but [00:22:00] they still played it, you know. Then, I had a great-uncle. He would take us on Chicago Avenue on Sundays. I think that little stand is still there, the hot dog stand in Ashland. JJ: Chicago and Ashland, okay. 18 �MA: Now, it’s called Duk’s -- JJ: It’s gotta be -- MA: -- but it used to be a little hot dog stand. WA: It would be in Ashland. MA: Yeah, and we used to go there -- WA: And we’d go to -- JJ: So that's by the Gaslight. So you guys were hanging out on Chicago Avenue and Ashland? MA: It didn’t even dawn on -- JJ: No, I don’t mean hanging out. I mean, that was the area you guys were from, or...? MA: No, I’m mainly Webster and Lincoln. JJ: But you guys would go to Chicago Avenue. MA: Right. No, my uncle would pick us up. My -- JJ: And take you there? MA: And take us on Sunday to eat hot dogs at -- JJ: Because they had the bakery and all that right there, right? MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish), [00:22:44] yeah. JJ: Yeah. Well, it was some kind of restaurant over there, no? MA: Where? JJ: On Chicago Avenue? WA: There’s a lot of restaurants. JJ: Yeah, a couple restaurants in that area. 19 �MA: But the Puerto Rican restaurants -- there weren’t too many. JJ: Not too many? Okay. MA: [00:23:00] No. WA: You had that one in -- MA: [One time?] -- WA: Cafe Central . MA: Cafe Central, yeah. JJ: Cafe Central, yeah. That’s what I was gonna say, yeah. It’s been there – it’s still there. MA: Oh, is it still there? WA: Yeah, it’s still there. JJ: Yeah, it’s still there. MA: We haven’t been around. WA: [Mike?], his wife, and his son took it over. JJ: Oh, the other guy? Okay. MA: Mm-hmm. WA: Yeah, when he [passed away?] -- JJ: Yeah, I think I was gonna go there today. MA: Yeah, but the big thing for me was we used to go to the San Juan Theatre and see all these people. See, people don’t -- JJ: That was on Division, right? 20 �MA: On Division. We used to see all the Spanish, you know, singers, actors. Mainly Puerto Rican, and then The Senate. I don’t know if you’re familiar with The Senate Theatre and (Spanish). [00:23:41] JJ: (Spanish), [00:23:43] yeah. MA: There was more Mexican down by -- what was the name -- WA: Milwaukee Avenue. MA: Yeah, but the name of that big store. WA: Where, on Lincoln Avenue? MA: No, it was near the Catholic [00:24:00] church, that big Mexican church on -- JJ: Oh, Guadalupe? MA: Uh-huh. WA: Roosevelt? MA: Right. What was the name of that? JJ: Oh, no, St. Francis. MA: Terry’s. JJ: Oh, that’s it. Okay, Terry’s. What was Terry’s? MA: That was a big department store. WA: Yeah, it’s a -- MA: We used to -- WA: -- clothing store. MA: -- go to mass and then go shopping in there. JJ: So you went to St. Francis Church? MA: We went to -- you know, it depended. 21 �JJ: You went to that mass right next to Terry’s? MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: So that’s -- MA: St. Francis. JJ: -- Spanish because they had Spanish masses. MA: Right, in those days, yeah. JJ: And it was mainly Mexican, and Puerto Ricans went there too. Oh, you went there too? My mother went there. MA: Yeah, and St. Vincent also was all Puerto Rican mass at that time because we used to go -- JJ: Right, St. Vincent would do Puerto Rican masses. MA: In those days, yeah. JJ: So they had a (Spanish) [00:24:43] there? MA: Right. JJ: [Yeah, that’s what I thought?]. MA: They had a lot of dances there, yeah. JJ: So yeah, you didn’t -- MA: It was Father -- oh, what was his name? JJ: So you were part of the (Spanish), [00:24:53] or you just went to mass? MA: No, we weren’t really -- JJ: You -- 22 �MA: -- that attached to it. But we used to go when they had the dances [00:25:00] or if they had some -- you know, they used to do a lot of baking and selling. We would go. What was the name of the father? WA: Father [Reines?]? MA: No. WA: [I remember him?]. JJ: Oh, you remember Father Reines from St. -- MA: No, Father Reines from St. Michael’s. JJ: You’re thinking St. -- WA: No, (inaudible). MA: Oh, was it? JJ: And now, it’s a -- WA: Now, it’s a park. JJ: North Park, yeah. MA: Oh, what’s his name? He married us. JJ: Father Catherine, I’m talking about. WA: Oh, [he was?] -- MA: No, he was Spanish. I forgot his last name. Guiterrez? WA: No. MA: I know that it was a Spanish -- WA: Well, we got his name. It’s on the -- MA: Yeah, but St. Vincent -- JJ: He wrote it down on the paper. (laughter) 23 �MA: -- was a big Spanish church at that time. JJ: Yeah, and it became -- MA: ’Cause Halsted was all Puerto Rican around there. JJ: Halsted and what? MA: Halsted and Webster, and all of those -- WA: North Avenue down through Webster. MA: Because my uncle -- JJ: Through Webster? MA: Maybe you know my uncle. I’m gonna -- JJ: What’s your uncle’s name? MA: -- drop his name: Domingo Davila. JJ: No, you mentioned Domingo. P1: [Erica Imez?]. MA: Erica, okay. He used to give a lot of [00:26:00] dances down there. JJ: Oh, that’s Erica’s uncle? P1: He’s our -- MA: He’s my uncle. JJ: He’s your uncle? P1: -- great-uncle, her uncle. MA: My uncle, and he used to do a lot of dances down there. JJ: You mean in the -- MA: Northwest Hall, Crystal Ballroom, and my girlfriend and I -- JJ: So that’s who did the dances here? 24 �MA: Some of the time, yeah. But the funny part is that he would give a -- JJ: Now, this is not the guy with the large -- MA: No, he’s very -- JJ: Okay, not this guy, because he had a big -- P1: Big beard? JJ: -- sideburns or something. MA: Who is that, I wonder. JJ: But that’s not him, then, that -- MA: No. JJ: -- [you’re talking about?]? MA: He’s older than us. But the thing was that he would give us tickets -- JJ: I think he bought Northwest Hall later, the guy I’m thinking about. MA: Yeah. He would give us tickets to go down Halsted Street and sell ’em. (laughs) I always remember that. JJ: Well, for The Queen when they were -- MA: Oh, don’t get me started on those ones. (laughs) JJ: What do you mean, on the tickets for The Queen? You sold those? MA: Oh, yeah, we sold [00:27:00] all of them. JJ: I heard something, but I don’t know what the -- MA: Yeah, we sold that, and we -- JJ: How does that work? MA: He did the Boys Club, my uncle. JJ: Okay, the Boys Club on -- 25 �MA: And we all got in -- pardon? JJ: On -- MA: When they -- JJ: -- Orchard, or...? MA: I don’t remember. JJ: [Verde?]. MA: Maybe, because when they did the first Puerto Rican Parade, we were a part of it because of my uncle. JJ: And you’re talking about in ’66? MA: Right. JJ: That one, okay. MA: We went down State Street, whatever it was, yeah. JJ: Okay. Oh, yeah, that was the first one on State Street. It went to State Street, yeah. MA: We were part of that parade. JJ: That was the official -- MA: Yeah, official parade. JJ: They had one in Holy Name, you know, but that was the first one here. MA: But now, you know, they don’t give it downtown anymore, I guess, so... JJ: Well, they don’t do it in the neighborhood anymore. MA: In the neighborhood on Division and -- JJ: On Division into -- MA: Been a while, mm-hmm. 26 �JJ: So the Crystal Ballroom, [00:28:00] the Northwest Hall, Domingo Davila, (laughter) and then the (Spanish) [00:28:09] and all that -- you’re involved in all the -- MA: Yeah, I’ve been -- JJ: -- Puerto Rican stuff at St. Vincent’s. Okay, so that -- MA: My mother, after she came from the hospital, worked a couple of nights at Clyde’s Donuts. See, our house was right there. JJ: Right on Webster Avenue? MA: Right by -- JJ: Yeah, it was all Puerto Rican. MA: Yeah, and then Swiss Hall -- JJ: But now, it’s Oz Park. They made it a park. MA: Yeah, now that’s all a park. JJ: Yeah, it’s a -- MA: We got married at Swiss Hall. Yeah, I remember -- JJ: And that’s the one on Webster? MA: Right, Webster. We lived at 625 -- JJ: Now, do you remember going to parties there? MA: Oh, yeah, they used to have a lot of -- JJ: A lot of dances and that. MA: -- parties. Even that radio disc jockey, WLS, used to have parties in there. I remember, as a kid, seeing them, yeah. 27 �JJ: So what was it like? So [00:29:00] that’s an important area that we’re trying to let people know about and describe what -- so you lived right on that block? MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: So what was it like in summer -- MA: Oh, it was really nice ’cause it was all Spanish, and we all sat at (Spanish) [00:29:16] to talk. JJ: On the stairs and that? MA: And, you know, that was it. It was all families. And then if it got too hot, we went to -- not Garfield. Where they had the flowers on Lincoln Park -- what is it? JJ: Oh, the flower shop? MA: The big flower -- JJ: The big flower place right outside of it. MA: And they have a fountain. JJ: And the fountain -- P1: And the fountain -- MA: And my mother would take us there to cool off, and then we’d go home and go to bed. JJ: Did you guys go swimming? MA: (laughs) Yeah, I’m -- JJ: You jumped in -- MA: -- being honest. JJ: -- the little pond, and that’s what -- MA: We’d go in the pond around eight o’clock at night and then -- 28 �JJ: I jumped in there too. MA: Right, and then we’d go home, and that was our air condition, [00:30:00] you know. That was it, and then we’d go home. JJ: And it’s just down the street from Webster, yeah. MA: Yeah, I remember that. JJ: And the zoo was free. Everything was free. MA: Everything, yep. And then remember, there were no seatbelts, so you got (Spanish) [00:30:13] inside the car, (laughs) you know? I had one. You know, the older kids held onto the little kids, and we just drove very happy. JJ: And then there were a lot of other families [living there also?]? MA: Oh, yeah. Like I told you, you know, we Puerto Ricans at that time had to take the whole neighborhood. (Spanish), [00:30:32] and everybody went, you know? Now, it’s like, “Let me call them first,” you know. It’s very different, you know. That’s what I see, you know, that my kids -- one day, they’re gonna forget. They’re more Americanized. One time, my daughter said, “Why did you come here?” I said, “Your grandmother [00:31:00] brought me here. What did you want me to do? I couldn’t do anything, you know?” We were brought by other people, you know, and that’s the way life is, you know? JJ: Well, how did you feel about being -- MA: Well, I was little -- JJ: -- brought over here? MA: -- so you know, the first year, I was really crying, I’ll be honest with you, ’cause I couldn’t talk the language. I remember I went outside, and my mother didn’t 29 �even think. I was playing with the snow. I froze my hands, you know, ’cause that’s how it was, you know? No one told us anything, you know, so that’s the way it was then. It was very different lifestyle to today. And then the holidays -you didn’t need to have a party. Everybody came over. You brought something; we all cooked. We danced in a little house. Now, today, you can’t even visit people ’cause, “Oh, no, [00:32:00] call me.” Not in those days. People used to come, and little kids, big adult -- we all danced, everybody. Didn’t matter, you know? JJ: Okay, the adults and the kids -- MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish). [00:32:14] JJ: So people were just into dancing? MA: For the holiday. Let’s say Noche Buena. You were preparing (Spanish), [00:32:23] you know, everything. JJ: Well, I mean, what did you do, I mean, for Noche Buena, for example? MA: Oh, wow. My mother -- JJ: What Noche Buena? Which one? MA: The 24th. Yeah, that’s Noche -- JJ: So what did you do? How did you do it? MA: Well, we all got ready, you know, for that day. Like I told you, they all lived -- JJ: What do you mean, ready? I mean, what did you -- MA: Oh, we made pasteles. We did (Spanish). [00:32:46] At that time, there weren’t that many big stores that sold (Spanish), [00:32:52] so my uncle -- I remember him going somewhere far. I don’t know where he would go to purchase it, and 30 �then he’d bring it [00:33:00] and cook it. And we cooked there, and we just sat around, you know, and danced. And that was it. That was our Noche Buena. JJ: In your -- MA: In our house. JJ: Right there on Webster? MA: Right on Webster. JJ: Right on there? MA: I remember we rolled up the curtains if it got too hot in the house and opened (Spanish), [00:33:21] and you had a good time, you know. Now, everything is, “What are we gonna do,” (laughs) you know. It’s very different. WA: [Some people?]... JJ: Trying to add -- so how was school? Tell me about your school. MA: It was Waller. I wasn’t -- JJ: You went to Waller? MA: Mm-hmm. I went to Waller. JJ: Did you graduate from Waller? MA: Yeah, mm-hmm. I was the last class that graduated in January. [00:34:00] I don’t know if you remember that they used to have classes graduating in January and one in June. I’ll never forget Jose [Sias?] was so -- JJ: Jose Sias? MA: Jose Sias. (Spanish), [00:34:13] they used to call him. JJ: Oh, that was (Spanish)? [00:34:16] MA: Yeah. 31 �JJ: That’s what I thought. But were they related, [Louis?] Sias -- MA: Oh, yeah, they’re brothers. JJ: They’re brothers, okay. MA: Oh, yeah, and he graduated -- JJ: Oh, so one was called (Spanish). [00:34:25] MA: (Spanish), [00:34:26] yeah. JJ: Okay, I remember that. WA: Five brothers in the family. MA: Mm-hmm, and we graduated together. And Lydia Laboy graduated with me, and I think -- JJ: So there were a lot of people in the Laboy family, right? MA: Right. Louis -- JJ: Louis and -- MA: -- Lydia, Michael. I remember -- JJ: So you guys grew up together? MA: We went to school together at Walter. JJ: What do you remember about them? MA: Oh, Lydia and I were very good friends. It’s a shame. Now, we don’t keep in contact, but her and I worked together. We went out together. She slept at my house, you know, and [00:35:00] things like that, yeah. JJ: Where are they from? Do you know where they’re from, or...? MA: No, I don’t know. JJ: Okay. But they were just good friends from school? 32 �MA: Yeah, from school, her and I. Lydia, mm-hmm. JJ: So you had a few friends that kinda hung around. What did you guys do? MA: Like girls being girls, we used to get together at somebody’s house and just listen to music and talk, you know, stuff like that. JJ: Spanish music? MA: Yeah, Spanish or English. JJ: Or English. I mean, what kinda English songs did you listen to? MA: Oh, God, all the popular ones. JJ: Who were the popular ones? Do you remember any? MA: Oh, yeah. JJ: “It’s twine time!” (laughter) I’m just kidding. MA: There was so many, oh, my God. JJ: Were the -- MA: “The Mashed Potatoes”, Chubby Checkers. JJ: Oh, Chubby Checkers and “The Mashed Potatoes”. We all knew that. MA: Brenda Lee. JJ: “Wipe Out.” MA: “Wipe Out”, yeah. JJ: So you guys remember that? MA: Yeah, sure. JJ: I know you had to remember ’cause we were at the same dances. WA: [Yeah, just about?]. MA: Yeah, I [00:36:00] used to listen a lot to WLS, Dick Biondi. 33 �JJ: Oh, Biondi, that’s who it was? MA: At that time, yeah. JJ: So that’s why I asked you about that church on Lincoln. It was The Peoples Church [later?], but they used to have dances there with the Imperial Aces and Queens. And I remember walking in there one time. Everybody was doing cartwheels and everything. MA: Oh, really? JJ: Yeah. You know, they used to do the split and all that. Did you do all that? MA: All the guys, yeah. I remember -- WA: We never went to that church. JJ: You never been there? MA: No, but we went -- JJ: And then there was that -- in Webster too, they did it. MA: Yeah, on -- JJ: It was the same crowd. WA: [It was?] -- JJ: At Saint Teresa’s, they had dances, didn’t they? MA: Oh, yeah, Saint Teresa. You’re right. JJ: So you went to Saint Teresa? MA: Some dances, yeah. It was mainly, like I said, St. Michael’s, St. Vincent, yeah. JJ: So there was dances all over that area over there? MA: Yeah, that was -- WA: [And the?] -- 34 �JJ: Do you remember that too, [00:37:00] Freddy, the dances? WA: I mean, not all of them besides the -- MA: (Spanish) [00:37:02] San Juan -- JJ: [And you went together?]? WA: Yeah, (Spanish). [00:37:04] MA: -- used to have a lot of dances too. (Spanish) -- [00:37:05] JJ: That’s right. (Spanish) [00:37:06] San Juan had a lot of dances. WA: [There was a lot?] we used to go to. MA: I think that’s why we kept busy, you know, ’cause there were a lot of activities. JJ: So was it a community, or...? MA: Yeah, I would say a community. JJ: Well, what does that mean to you, community? MA: Well, that you knew each other. When you went there, you knew everybody, you know? The majority of the people, you would know, so you knew there wasn’t gonna be any problems, you know, ’cause you knew each other. Like I tell you, we used to go to the dances, get on the bus, just the girls. We never had any problems with anybody on the bus, or that they’d look at you strange, you know. Never had -- JJ: So there really wasn’t a gang there? MA: No. JJ: It was more like a -- WA: Never. JJ: -- community with projects -- 35 �MA: Right, community. WA: That’s what I said. JJ: -- and dancing and sports and...? MA: Right. JJ: So, you know, like Freddy was saying, sports. And you’re saying about the dances that the girls went out to dance and [00:38:00] just had a good time? MA: Oh, our routine was -- like I said, Friday, we’d go shopping for what we’re gonna wear Saturday to go dancing. And then Sunday, we’d go to one of the theaters; (Spanish), [00:38:13] San Juan, or Senate. One of those three, we would go. The same crowd that we -- JJ: And were they mostly Puerto Rican? MA: Oh, yeah, mm-hmm. JJ: So you said before that Halsted and Webster, that whole area, was -- MA: It was all Puerto Ricans. JJ: All Puerto Rican. You mentioned North Avenue up to Diversey or Webster? WA: Yeah. MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: How big was the Puerto Rican community around that time? MA: I would say by us, it was, at that time -- JJ: From what street to what street? MA: Lincoln Avenue -- JJ: Around there? MA: -- Halsted, Dickens. 36 �WA: Yeah. [Ralph Comiez?] used to live on North Avenue and Halsted. MA: Yeah, all that would cover -- WA: I had a lot [of family that was?] -- JJ: North Avenue and what? WA: [00:39:00] And Halsted. JJ: And Halsted? So from North Avenue to Halsted to...? WA: All the way to Walter. JJ: All the way to -- WA: Or Webster. JJ: To Webster? WA: Yeah. Well, into -- JJ: And then from -- MA: You know where -- JJ: From Clyde to where, to Southport or Racine? MA: No, Southport wasn’t -- JJ: No Southport? WA: No, sir. MA: Southport -- JJ: And then what’s up north? WA: It’s to Clark East. JJ: (inaudible). MA: But I would say -- JJ: Oh, from Clark to Racine, would you say, or...? 37 �WA: No. MA: I would say the Puerto Rican community was up to Clark where the Century was. Remember the Century? JJ: Uh-huh. MA: There, it became more -- you know, it was different. But from Webster up to Clark -- ’cause I remember my mother would take us to the AMP there, and it was a little different crowd, you know what I mean? But I would say once you hit the Century, it was more white area. JJ: Right, okay, ’cause that’s by Diversey. MA: Right. I remember when we’d go to the Century, [00:40:00] it was a little different atmosphere. People would look at you funny like, “What are you doing here,” you know? (laughter) JJ: (Spanish) [00:40:07] hanging around by the Century. WA: [He knows I?] -- JJ: He knows what I mean. MA: It’s true. JJ: I’m joking. MA: Yeah, no, but it was like that. It’s true. You know, out of your comfort zone, you know, that you had to be... JJ: But from Clark -- MA: Halsted. JJ: -- at least to Sheffield. MA: St. Vincent -- yeah, Sheffield. Yeah, it covered all -- 38 �JJ: So that’s a big area. MA: Oh, yeah, it was. I remember Halsted was all Puerto Rican, the majority, at least that I saw. Lincoln Avenue -- JJ: And everybody just moved down and -- MA: You know, I don’t know what happened. I don’t know. JJ: -- made all their money and left. MA: It must’ve been, yeah. JJ: And what happens -- WA: I don’t know. I mean -- JJ: What do you think -- MA: I think -- WA: The areas I lived in -- MA: -- it got too expensive. WA: Sure, it did. That’s how you [00:41:00] drive people out if they can’t handle it. MA: And think about it. That used to be all homes, and now it’s Oz Park. That’s where we lived, right there. JJ: So, I mean, how do you feel -- that was your neighborhood. MA: It’s sad, you know, but that’s the way... JJ: That’s the way life is? MA: Yeah, you know, everything goes in a circle, you know. WA: Gentrification, you know? MA: It is. JJ Like Freddy said, gentrification, so... 39 �WA: Gotta go with the new. JJ: “We’re gonna buy another house.” MA: (laughter) No, we’re done. JJ: I’m joking. WA: I’m done. JJ: I’m just giving -- no, gentrification. That’s what it is. WA: That’s it. MA: Yeah, that’s what it is. JJ: It’s ridiculous. [I mean that?]. MA: Yeah. If you can’t afford it, you gotta move, you know? JJ: So do you feel any anger, or no? MA: You know -- JJ: I guess not ’cause it’s not -- WA: You can’t be remorseful because -- MA: Well, you know what? WA: -- in those old days, there was no (inaudible). MA: Certain neighborhoods, I would’ve really loved to have stayed, I’ll be honest with you. I would’ve liked to stay by Byron when we lived on Byron [00:42:00] and Southport. JJ: That’s Freddy Aviles, your husband, speaking [out of you?]. MA: (laughs) No. I can’t tell you the story -- JJ: He’s trying to speak for you. (laughter) I’m kidding. 40 �MA: No, I always liked the house there. You know, I would’ve retired there on Southport, but you know, life has other plans for you, so... JJ: So you guys had a house on Southport, is that right? MA: Southport and Byron, yeah. JJ: Okay, yeah, he mentioned that. MA: And it’s still there, and they haven’t done a thing with it. That’s what makes me laugh, (Spanish), [00:42:32] Fred? WA: Mm-hmm. MA: They haven’t remodeled it. They haven’t done anything with it. JJ: So were there any dance contests? Now, I’m taking you away from that. MA: Oh, there was all -- you know what? I don’t think there were any dance contests. WA: There weren’t any dance contests, no, that would -- JJ: Besides Freddy, who else was a good dancer? MA: Oh, God, a lot of the guys were good dancers -- JJ: Yeah, the guys were? MA: -- just like the girls. There were a lot of people that would go dancing. JJ: Which girls were good dancers? WA: [00:43:00] Half of them, who knows, were there. MA: You know, like I said, we all danced. I don’t know. JJ: Now, do you remember ever going out to other places besides the dancing? MA: Oh, yeah, we went places. JJ: Were there picnics at the high school? MA: Oh, no -- 41 �JJ: School picnics? MA: -- we had picnics from school, yeah. JJ: From the school? MA: No, we did our own picnics -- JJ: In the neighborhood? MA: -- in the school. JJ: In the school? MA: We called it a school picnic, but we did it -- JJ: Okay, so -- MA: -- the kids. JJ: -- [you did it?]? MA: Yeah. JJ: But I mean some Puerto Ricans going out and kind of -- MA: Oh, no, we did a lot of that, yeah. JJ: A lot of that? MA: (Spanish) [00:43:34] San Juan did a lot of that. JJ: So (Spanish) [00:43:37] San Juan did some picnics? MA: Yeah. And the Puerto Rican Police. WA: Police Association. JJ: Oh, the Puerto Rican Police Association? MA: They did picnics, yeah. JJ: They would have picnics? MA: Oh, yes. 42 �WA: The Puerto Rican Chamber of Commerce. JJ: Okay. And you guys were both together with them? WA: Yeah, sure. MA: Mm-hmm. WA: I was involved with ’em. JJ: With the Puerto Rican Chamber of Commerce? MA: Mm-hmm. WA: Sure. JJ: Okay. Were you involved with the Puerto Rican -- WA: The parade. JJ: -- Police Association? Oh, with the Puerto Rican Parade Committee. [00:44:00] WA: (Spanish), [00:44:00] yeah. JJ: You were with them? WA: I was in the parade. I was a director there also in the Chamber of Commerce. JJ: In the Chamber of Commerce? MA: Mm-hmm. WA: I was the treasurer. JJ: Okay. And did you go to the YMCA also with him? MA: With me? I think I -- WA: I think twice, yeah. MA: -- went to a couple of dances, but no. But my mother had my uncle pick me up at 10:00 when the fun was going on. (laughter) JJ: [Not even at midnight?]. 43 �MA: I’d be so embarrassed because I’d see him looking for me. At ten o’clock? Come on. (laughter) JJ: “Give me a break, man!” MA: Yeah. So the way -- JJ: But that’s the way the women at that time -- MA: Well -- JJ: Or just you? MA: Just me. JJ: [They didn’t let?] -- MA: We won’t go into my sisters. (laughs) JJ: Your sisters could stay? MA: They didn’t listen. JJ: Oh, they didn’t listen. They just stayed. MA: They did whatever they wanted. [00:45:00] Hey... JJ: I mean, do you think that that helped? Was it too strict? MA: You know what? I’m not gonna blame anyone. I did whatever they told me; let’s put it that way. I shouldn’t blame other people. You know, it’s just, you know, your character, I guess. I don’t know. You know, I didn’t wanna see my mom worried about us, you know. She already had enough to worry, you know? But my sisters had a great time in life. JJ: So why do you think they were that strict? I mean, what was the -- MA: I don’t know. I believe that’s the way they were brought up. I think it repeats itself. 44 �JJ: So you didn’t understand why you were -- MA: At that time? No. I was not very happy. (laughs) JJ: You were not happy, and you didn’t understand why? MA: Right. JJ: Did you try to do that with your children? MA: You know, you’d have to ask them. I think I wasn’t [00:46:00] as strict as my mother was. At least my daughters used to go out, you know, with me or with -you know who she only let me go -- JJ: They went out with you, though? MA: Yeah. JJ: That’s what your mother said. You’d go out with her. MA: Right. You know who she believed in letting me go out with? My husband. She wouldn’t let me go out with any other guy but him. JJ: But Freddy? MA: (laughs) I swear to you. I don’t know. JJ: He had a way with her. MA: Right. She liked him right away. WA: She said, “He’s a good person with, you know, a good face. He has a great face.” MA: Little did she know. JJ: That he was the worst guy you knew. (laughter) MA: (Spanish), [00:46:44] you know. JJ: So little did she know that he wasn’t that (inaudible). 45 �MA: Right. But if Fred would come pick me up, it was okay. JJ: But at least, hey, 51 years, you’ve been married. MA: Oh, right. I’ll never forget I had a friend -- JJ: Fifty-one years, you’ve been married. That’s pretty good. MA: Yeah, but then I felt embarrassed. I had a [00:47:00] friend -- he was just a friend. It was nothing -- so he came and asked my mother, “Well, can I take Betty to a dance on the South Side?” “Oh, yeah, tomorrow after she cleans the house.” Well, I got up and cleaned that house, boy. (laughter) The guy comes to pick me up. She says, “You’re not going anywhere.” And, you know, I would not argue. And I felt bad for him ’cause he came from the South Side to pick me up. JJ: Now, wait a minute. Freddy mentioned the South Side. MA: No, this was before I met Fred, you know. I was -- JJ: Oh, no, I don’t mean that. But you guys mentioned the South Side, so where in the South Side? MA: I really don’t -- WA: Fifty-fifth. JJ: On 55th? That was a Puerto Rican -- WA: That area used to be on 55th, and there used to be a lot of Puerto Ricans. Matter of fact, you got -- JJ: Yeah, there was a lot of Puerto Ricans. (Spanish)? [00:47:54] WA: No, at the (Spanish). [00:47:57] MA: The [00:48:00] (Spanish), yeah. WA: And just down by Midway Airport. 46 �JJ: By Midway? WA: (Spanish) [00:48:07] ’cause we went to -- JJ: So Midway Airport -- WA: -- Capital Bank or something. JJ: -- had a lot of Puerto Ricans. WA: In the Midway Airport. JJ: And for what year? MA: The same, the ’60s. WA: Well, this is now, recently in the -- JJ: Oh, recently, yeah. WA: Yeah, in the ’80s till now. JJ: Now and the ’80s, but I mean at that time? MA: No. WA: At that time? JJ: The ’50s? WA: When I came from Puerto Rico, I landed at Midway. You had to walk from the airplane to the house where you pick up your luggage and that. JJ: So, yeah, Midway used to be the airport ’cause there was no -- WA: There was no O’Hare -- JJ: There was no O’Hare, yeah. WA: -- when we came here. 47 �JJ: But, I mean, I know that in the late ’40s during World War II, they had an assembly line in the factories for the planes at the Midway. And a lot of Puerto Ricans [00:49:00] were hired for that. WA: They called them (Spanish). [00:49:00] MA: Yeah, that was the -- WA: That’s what they were. JJ: (Spanish)? [00:49:04] WA: Yeah. JJ: So there was a group called that? WA: Yeah. MA: You know how we -- JJ: In the ’50s? WA: No, I don’t know if it -- MA: You know who used to be in that area? WA: -- was that. But I know it was next to -- MA: (Spanish) [00:49:13] Yvette. WA: Yeah, and she’s still on 55th -- MA: In front of our -- WA: -- with Louis Sias. P1: But what year? JJ: Oh, Louis Sias? MA: In the ’60s. WA: No, it’s more like the ’70s. 48 �MA: Well, after we got married, yeah. JJ: The ’70s. MA: In the early ’70s. JJ: Yeah, the ’70s because I remember they moved all over, but there was always something there. MA: Yeah, that’s -- WA: [Yeah, that’s before?] -- MA: -- how he met his wife. She was from the South Side, Puerto Rican. JJ: So you’re talking about -- in the ’70s, they were going over to the South Side, okay. WA: No, in the ’70s, she was not going to the South Side ’cause we got married ’66, so -- MA: Well, that’s when we -- JJ: She wasn’t allowed? MA: -- met (Spanish) [00:49:46] Yvette. Then, they got married -- WA: They got married. MA: -- on the South Side. P1: No, he was asking when you were -- WA: When you were going. P1: -- going to the South Side to the dance. MA: Oh, I see. JJ: So you went in ’65, yeah. WA: Before she was married, yeah. 49 �MA: Right, but I never got to go [00:50:00] because my mother -- JJ: You had to clean the house. You were scrubbing the floor. WA: Well, that’s the way it is. In the old days, they -- MA: Who knows? You know what? Maybe -- WA: I mean, I was 16, 17. I’m in high school, and I had to be home at eight o’clock at night. I’m not kidding you when I tell you that. JJ: Okay. So they -- WA: That’s the way it was. JJ: -- were strict with the men. WA: I was not a person that was out doing bad things ’cause I didn’t get -- MA: He didn’t have the time. WA: -- you know, to go out there. I was home already. JJ: I think he’s trying to tell me something. WA: Well, no, it’s true. A lot of the guys [in the?] -- MA: See, the thing is he was the oldest in his family. I was the oldest in my family, so I think the oldest kid always is -- they’re more strict with you. I don’t know, you know. JJ: Okay. So the oldest -- MA: In my head. JJ: -- person in each family had a responsibility? MA: More responsibility, I think. WA: Sure, I used to -- JJ: Is that what they were doing? 50 �WA: My brothers, Ruben -- MA: (Spanish). [00:50:51] WA: -- and Sixto, I had to wake up in the morning. “Come on, get your butts up for school.” MA: Yeah, that’s the way it was. WA: And, you know, I used to -- JJ: You had to do that? WA: Yeah, I would. MA: You didn’t have a [00:51:00] babysitter. You didn’t have anybody coming for -- WA: My mother and father would get up at 5:00 in the morning to go to work. MA: Yeah, that’s the -- JJ: So that was part of family? MA: Right, it was a family thing. JJ: The oldest person -- MA: My mother got up -- JJ: -- had to do it. WA: You have a responsibility for the -- MA: My mother left by 7:00. Like he says, I had to get them ready for school. What could I do? I was 12, 11, you know. We walked together. No one walked us to school, you know. WA: Today, everybody drives their kids to school. They live two blocks, they drive their kid to school. I walked to school. I had to take buses when I went to high school, and you know, 20 below zero didn’t mean nothing. 51 �MA: Yeah, you had to -- WA: You waited there for the bus, and that’s it. Just make sure you’re dressed warm, you know. That’s the way it was. But I bought my first car for 75 bucks, a ’53 Mercury. Two-door hardtop with the Hollywood bumpers and all that, my own money. MA: When we first got married, we got paid every two weeks, so -- JJ: Oh, really? MA: [00:52:00] -- we didn’t have enough money between us. And the bus was 25 cents with a transfer, and we didn’t have that. And I was too proud to ask, and he was too proud to ask, so what he would do -- he had a car. He’d take me to work, then come back or -- oh, it was a big mistake. WA: We had money to go to work, but then I would come back home and pick up the car, and then I would go pick her up at work. No lunch. We had breakfast at home, and that was it, so you know... MA: And people would say, “Oh, aren’t you gonna eat lunch?” (laughs) WA: You got to, you know, earn points, and that’s the way we did, but thank God. MA: But I think there were a lot of -- WA: Today, you know... MA: -- people like that, a lot of Latinos, you know, that did that. It wasn’t just us. I believe that very much. JJ: Did you see it, or no? MA: I believe I saw, you know, a lot of people sacrifice. JJ: Like your friends? 52 �MA: [00:53:00] Oh, yeah. JJ: Oh, they did? Okay. WA: It was -- MA: Mainly, I would say my family; my parents, my mom, and my aunts and all of them. They were very hard workers too. JJ: They just ate breakfast. They didn’t eat lunch? MA: Right, yeah. JJ: No lunch? MA: No lunch, as far as I know, you know, yeah. On the weekend, they used to cook a lot because, you know, that was the thing to do. We’d cook, and then -- JJ: So when they cooked, I know that -- was it rice and beans and that? MA: Oh, yeah. JJ: I mean, they didn’t -- WA: Puerto Rican favorites -- JJ: Puerto Rican families -- WA: -- in those days, sopa de pollos and everything. MA: We used to go to his mother’s house every Sunday to eat or my mom because like he said, one lived on the first floor and second. And we’d go with the kids, and one of them would cook one Sunday, and the other one the next Sunday. That’s what I’m saying. Today is, “Let me call and see if I can come over,” [00:54:00] you know? In those days, you just came over. It wasn’t like now. And then it was all Puerto Rican food all the time. (Spanish), [00:54:14] what time is it? 53 �WA: I know, yeah. JJ: Okay, yeah, so we’re gonna kinda wind down. Okay, so what’s the biggest thing you remember about growing up in Lincoln Park? MA: That mostly, it was all Puerto Rican, and we all got along. We never had any, you know, “Don’t go walking on that side of the street,” or, “Don’t look at him.” We all got along perfect. And, you know, of course, there’s always a little mishap with people, but it wasn’t to that degree that you had to call the police or -- you know, everybody tried to get along with each other. Today, it’s hard, you [00:55:00] know? Neighbors are not that friendly. Everybody keeps to themselves, you know? JJ: Did you like Lincoln Park, or...? MA: Oh, yeah, I was happy there. JJ: That’s a trick question. That’s kinda a leading question. MA: No, at that time, you know, I was a kid. Those are memories that -- we had a family. What was their last name? Puerto Rican. They lived on top of Clyde’s Donuts. They had 22 children, so we had all kinds of kids to play with. (laughs) You’ll never guess -- and that’s the guy, Bendito. He was a very -- they all sang. They played guitar, (Spanish), [00:55:44] Fred? They were unbelievable, these people. They were from my mother’s town, Cidra. I don’t know if you’re -- JJ: Oh, the 22 were Puerto Rican. And he played guitar on the [side?]? MA: They had their own band. JJ: Folk music, [00:56:00] or...? MA: No, they had everything. 54 �JJ: (Spanish) [00:56:01] and all of that? MA: And I remember the daughter -- WA: And one of them -- MA: -- sang beautiful, Anjelina. WA: -- was a pilot in Puerto Rico. MA: Yeah, some of them moved back to Puerto Rico. JJ: So you know who else lived on Webster? This guy named [Ito?]. Do you remember him? WA: Oh, Ito, yes. JJ: What do you remember about Ito? WA: Man, Ito, Maria. MA: (Spanish)? [00:56:23] WA: (Spanish). [00:56:23] You know, he passed away. JJ: Oh, no, I didn’t know that. WA: Yeah, Ito died. He was a tall guy. We called him Ito. [That was his name]. MA: I used to remember [Fransico?]. WA: No, but Ito -- JJ: Oh, Elvis Presley. Wasn’t that Elvis? WA: Well, Ito was the one that was in -- JJ: Wasn’t he Elvis Presley in the neighborhood? WA: I don’t know about Elvis Presley, but -- MA: My cousin used to be Elvis Presley. JJ: [Oh, he was?]? 55 �MA: He used to love Elvis Presley. WA: He did, yes. MA: Hector. WA: Hector, yeah. JJ: Hector? WA: Her cousin. MA: They had a band. I’m pretty sure you knew them. JJ: What’s the name of that band? MA: I forgot the name of the band. [00:57:00] It was him, my other cousins like I told you, David -- WA: They were first cousins. MA: There used to be there with you guys, your -- JJ: Oh, us, with the Young Lords? MA: Yeah, they had a band. JJ: David -- MA: Johnny [Bettencort?] -- JJ: Vicente, the dancer? MA: That’s another guy. JJ: That was another band. MA: Yeah, I remember that name. JJ: His brother had -- WA: Yeah, so -- MA: But Hector and them -- what were they called? Darn it, I forgot. 56 �JJ: And there was some that dressed up like some kind of vampires or something like that, (Spanish) [00:57:28] or something like that. MA: Right, yeah. But that’s one -- JJ: But Ito used to get on the stage and sing Elvis. You don’t remember him -- WA: Maybe I do. JJ: -- and the dances? Ito used to get on the stage -- MA: Oh, I believe you, but I don’t -- JJ: -- and sing Elvis. You don’t remember something? Okay. WA: Yeah, I don’t know. JJ: But you said something? WA: He did Elvis? MA: Yeah, my cousin was a little -- WA: Hector. MA: Hector. He played in a band, and they used to know the Young Lords. It was David Bettencort -- JJ: (Spanish). [00:57:56] MA: -- Louis Bettencort, Johnny [00:58:00] Bettencort. They were three brothers and him, Hector Sias. He was part of the group. JJ: Okay, so they had -- WA: He played the keyboard. JJ: Okay, so I know that they had bands. Some of them looked like The Beatles. MA: Yeah, I think it was in Westley. WA: Yeah, they used to dress like that. 57 �MA: I think that was them, yeah. JJ: Yeah, that was them. MA: They used to dress with the black arrow. They had, you know, the little... WA: Yeah, it was the -- MA: Yeah, that was them. JJ: Yeah, ’cause we had our own bands in the neighborhood, all different bands. MA: Yeah, Swiss Hall, they used -- JJ: At Swiss Hall, yeah. MA: -- to play a lot. JJ: That’s where I -- MA: I remember that, yeah. JJ: So that’s them. I think [it was that band?]. MA: But I don’t -- JJ: And there was another group called The Vampire. It was a different group. MA: Oh, that one, I don’t know. But I forgot their name. JJ: And then they had salsa bands that were starting at that time too with Caribe Ruiz. He was [up there?]. MA: Oh, yeah, he was a big part of the community. JJ: Did you go to the Puerto Rican Congress? WA: (Spanish). [00:58:52] MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish). [00:58:53] JJ: Did you go to the (Spanish)? [00:58:55] MA: Oh, yeah. 58 �WA: It was down on North Avenue. JJ: What about The Post? Do you remember the [00:59:00] Legion Post for the soldiers? MA: No, that, I don’t -- WA: No, that one, (inaudible). JJ: They had [that on?] -- MA: But yes, (Spanish) Caribe [00:59:07] was very -- JJ: Yeah, he was one of the -- MA: -- influential with the Puerto Rican... JJ: Yeah, that’s right because you said you sold tickets for the parade. MA: Mm-hmm. No, but -- JJ: And that’s what they did at the (Spanish) [00:59:16] back then? MA: Right, yeah, once. WA: Yeah, at (Spanish). [00:59:19] JJ: Okay. Did you sell for that, or...? MA: No, I don’t -- JJ: Not for the -- okay. Now, there was a thing -- do you remember that St. Michael’s had a carnival? And I think there was a big fight. MA: Oh, yeah. WA: There was a big carnival. JJ: One year, there was a big fight. What do you remember of the carnival? MA: (laughs) I remember the fight. JJ: Oh, you remember the fight? 59 �MA: Don’t you remember the fight? WA: No. JJ: It was a -- MA: Wasn’t that the one with (Spanish) [00:59:45] Miguel, Louis Sias? WA: No. MA: Fred, I remember. WA: The one that you’re thinking about -- MA: Was it somewhere different? WA: On North Avenue. MA: Oh, on North Avenue. WA: Miguel’s uncle lives in that area. It’s the north area way [01:00:00] west. MA: Oh, okay, maybe I’m getting confused. WA: I can’t think of the street. Was it North Avenue? MA: I know there was a carnival, and there were some Italians or -- WA: Yeah, it was an Italian area. JJ: Oh, yeah, by the gang lords of (Spanish). [01:00:12] WA: I don’t know, but I know that’s by where the race track is. But I forgot the name of the race track already. JJ: Oh, that’s the race track? WA: On North Avenue and -- MA: Wood. WA: -- Cumberland. JJ: Cumberland? Okay. 60 �WA: That’s where it is, in Cumberland. MA: Yeah, I know where you mean. WA: That’s where -- JJ: The Hawthorne race track? WA: Not Hawthorne, though. It was in -- MA: It was in Oakwood or Maywood. WA: Maywood, yes. MA: Maywood. JJ: Maywood, yeah. That’s what I mean, that one, yeah. WA: Yeah, it was -- JJ: There was a fight in there? WA: -- in that area out there, yeah. There was a fight, yeah, and it was my (Spanish), [01:00:40] Miguel Claudio. I don’t know if you remember Miguel, Sean’s father. And -- MA: Somebody -- WA: -- he didn’t do anything. MA: Right, but they -- WA: And actually, it was a guy from the Paragons. MA: Yeah, I didn’t wanna say nothing, but... WA: And they blamed my (Spanish), [01:00:56] Miguel. And Frank Regio, you know -his [01:01:00] uncle had done that. JJ: Oh, Miguel, Crazy Johnny’s brother or somebody? WA: No. 61 �JJ: Okay, so that -- WA: He didn’t know Crazy Johnny. See, he only had two brothers, and it wasn’t him. JJ: Oh, okay, that wasn’t him. WA: Yeah, but it’s the -- JJ: No, Johnny was the Gonzales [family?]. MA: Oh, yeah, I remember him. JJ: You remember him? WA: Johnny, yeah. MA: Johnny Gonzale, yeah. WA: That’s Jose Gonzale’s brother. Johnny was in (Spanish). [01:01:21] JJ: Right, (Spanish), [01:01:23] yeah WA: That’s Jose’s brother. JJ: Mm-hmm. Anything else you wanna add? MA: No, that’s all. WA: [We gotta get outta here?]. JJ: I want to thank you very much. MA: You’re welcome. JJ: Thanks so much. MA: You gave me a lot of -- to look back. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, you can -- WA: Yeah, to remember. JJ: Okay, stop -- 62 �END OF VIDEO FILE 63 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7f46c0b34154719290123deead72508.mp4 eee7c764505b966ef67a9849ba842cad Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Maria Aviles vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Maria Aviles, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 09/27/2018 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Aviles_Maria Title A name given to the resource Maria Aviles video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Aviles, Maria Description An account of the resource Oral history of Maria Aviles, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 09/27/2018 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-09-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/184cd46bad22fec1df4e15199f10809e.pdf f058585efb09a76f2a5f5976b8e165aa PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Wilfredo and Maria Aviles Interviewers: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 9/27/2018 Runtime: 01:13:03 Biography and Description Wilfredo Aviles was Born in Manati, Puerto Rico. He arrived in the US on July 1955 to Chicago, IL at Clark and Division Streets or La Clark Neighborhood. His Parents were Angelina Tirado Aviles & Sixto Aviles, and he has three siblings. He lived in old town/Lincoln Park for about 10 years, then moved to the Lake View area. His work experience included the U.S. Army, and retail in the family owned business, The Gaslight Men's Shop, and eventually became the owner (43 years). He retired in 2008. Wilfredo was also a civic leader. He was the first Latino President of Erie Family Health Center Board (2 years); Treasurer of the Puerto Rican Parade committee (5 years); Puerto Rican Chamber of CommerceTreasurer (5 years); and the Chicago Avenue Business Association-President (5 years). He was a member of the Caballeros de San Juan. During his youth he belonged to one of the many sports clubs which often played baseball in Lincoln Park. A few times members of his group joined with other Puerto Rican youth to protect themselves from roving white ethnic gangs which had existed in Lincoln Park previous to Puerto Ricans arriving there. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: So this is just a test. If you can give me your name, and the date you were born and where you were born? Go ahead. WILFREDO AVILES: JJ: Wilfredo Aviles. April 7, 1945. Thank you. And -- MARIA AVILES: And where were -- JJ: -- where were you born? WA: Manati, Puerto Rico. JJ: Manati? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Let me just see something. (break in audio) JJ: And the day you were born. Go ahead. WA: In English? JJ: In Spanish, English, whatever. WA: Well, I’ll say it, you know -- my name is Wilfredo Aviles. I was born in Manati, Puerto Rico, April 7, 1945. JJ: Okay, Wilfredo, you look at me. And who are your parents? WA: My parents? Sixto Aviles and Angelina Tirado. JJ: [00:01:00] Tirado? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. And how about your brothers and sisters? 1 �WA: No sisters. I have two other brothers besides me, and -- JJ: And their names? WA: [Ruben?] Aviles and Sixto Aviles, Jr. JJ: Okay. And did they come to Chicago too at the same time you came? WA: No. I came to Chicago like six months before they did. JJ: When did you come to Chicago? WA: July of 1954. JJ: July of 1954? Okay. So can you kinda describe what was going on? How old were you when you came? WA: Eight; I was gonna be nine. Actually, yeah, eight. JJ: And what was going on in Puerto Rico then? WA: Actually, I was nine -- JJ: Oh, nine? Okay. WA: -- I meant to say. Yeah, nine, because 54 and 45 [00:02:00] is nine. JJ: Okay. And can you tell me about something in Puerto Rico at the time that you guys could come in? WA: In Puerto Rico? I was in school. I went to grammar school there for up to third grade. And my parents migrated to Chicago, and they sent for me. I came down here, and we lived on Division and Clark. JJ: Division and Clark? WA: Yep, Division and Clark. And -- JJ: Do you know in what house, or...? 2 �WA: Well, we lived at 1320 North Clark across the street from the Windsor Theatre in those days. And then from there, we moved to 1154 North Clark a little bit south of Division Street. JJ: So the Windsor Theatre was, you said, across the street. WA: Right from where I lived, yeah. JJ: What street was that about? WA: Clark Street. JJ: Okay, Clark. [00:03:00] But I thought they just had the Newberry Theater, and then they had the Stranahan -- WA: No, that was out by Chicago Avenue. JJ: Oh, that was -- WA: That was south, yeah. JJ: Okay. But the Windsor was more up north? WA: Just North of Division Street, yeah. JJ: Oh, was it? WA: In 1300 block -- JJ: That was the Windsor Theatre? WA: -- of Clark Street. Windsor, yes. JJ: Okay. And so did you go to that theater, or...? WA: Actually, I went more to the Newberry. (laughs) JJ: Oh, the Newberry instead of at -- WA: I’m sure that I went across the street too, but Newberry was the one that was -- JJ: Better than -- 3 �WA: -- by the post office. JJ: Okay. There was a post office there? WA: Yeah, right next to it. JJ: And so you were eight or nine years old. What was school like in Puerto Rico? Do you remember that, or...? WA: Well, you learn a little English. You learn about pencil, pen, chicken, (laughter) hen -- JJ: Hen, right. WA: -- you know, stuff like that, so you studied a little bit of English. [00:04:00] But I didn’t speak hardly any English when I came, I mean, at all, you know. But then on the other hand, you pick up fast because, you know, you’re around people all the time, and you gotta learn the lingo. And I did, you know? JJ: Okay. And so they told you you had to come over here, but you wanted to come ’cause your parents are here. WA: Sure, yeah. I mean, the -- JJ: You weren’t afraid or anything? WA: Nope. JJ: And -- WA: Never been afraid. (laughs) JJ: Okay. So you came, and then you grew up in this place. WA: I grew up. I went to William B. Ogden School on Oak Street between Dearborn and State, which is a very, you know, highly upper -- JJ: Upper class area. 4 �WA: -- class area, yeah. JJ: So it was a good school? WA: Oh, yeah. JJ: And did you feel important [00:05:00] because it’s upper class? WA: Well, I can’t complain about how fast I learned. I mean, I learned a lot of things, you know. We didn’t have, per se, big Latino students at that time. It was very few. JJ: Oh, they didn’t have that many? WA: Very few, yes. JJ: In ’54? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. But the neighborhood -- there was some Latinos, no, or...? WA: Not around there. JJ: Not around Oakland? WA: They were mainly, like I said, you know, by Division. Most people lived in the South Side of Chicago at that time, most of the -- JJ: But where did they live? WA: -- Puerto Ricans and the, you know... JJ: Where did they live? WA: South of Chicago Avenue, you know, and they lived west by the Humboldt Park - JJ: At that time? WA: -- area, you know? 5 �JJ: By -- WA: Yeah, there were a few Latinos in that -- JJ: But they were living at that time? ’Cause there used to be a neighborhood there, no? WA: Yeah, but -- JJ: At Clark or something? Do you know about that? WA: Well, there was a Latino [00:06:00] group, but believe it or not, they were more from my family from Manati. They were by Diversey and Clark Street. JJ: By Diversey and Clark? WA: Yeah. JJ: Oh, from your family. Or was it -- WA: Well, not my family, but friends and some relatives. JJ: By Diversey and Clark, there was a lot of Latinos and Puerto Ricans? Okay. WA: Latinos, yes, at 2835 North Clark. It was a whole Puerto Rican building there. JJ: Twenty-eight -- WA: Everybody was -- yeah, 2830-- JJ: Is that in [Westchester?] too or no? WA: Huh? JJ: Oh, no, that’s on Diversey. WA: Yeah, 2835 North Clark. JJ: And this is 1954? WA: Yep. JJ: (Spanish)? [00:06:32] 6 �WA: (Spanish) [00:06:34] -- to be honest, my uncles, my father’s brothers, and my cousins, you know -- JJ: That’s where they lived? WA: Yeah. JJ: Were there any stores around there? WA: There’s some stores vaguely, I remember, I mean, like Latino stores. The only Latino store that [00:07:00] was on Clark Street was [Mario Rivera?]. JJ: Mario Rivera. I remember that. WA: Okay. Mario Rivera was right across the street also by the Windsor Theatre, the 1300 block on Clark Street. JJ: Because he had -- WA: He had a grocery store. JJ: He had a grocery store. I know he had (Spanish) [00:07:20] on Clark. Do you remember that one? WA: I remember Spanish American food. JJ: His Spanish American food, yeah. I remember when he [brought it?] on the radio one time. WA: Yeah, that was -- JJ: What radio station was that? Do you remember, or...? WA: In those days? JJ: Is it -- WA: Man, I don’t know. Pelencho, maybe? JJ: Pelencho or Chapa, all that -- 7 �WA: Pelencho, yeah. JJ: Pelencho. WA: And then (Spanish) [00:07:42] also was a local duo that -- Raul Cardona was another radio announcer, you know, so there was not a lot. And there were a [00:08:00] lot of Hispanics where my grandmother used to live and my aunts. They’re from -- JJ: They lived where, on Diversey? WA: No, they lived on Fifth Avenue by Harrison Street in the South Side up there. JJ: Oh, on the west side. WA: West, yes. JJ: Or Southwest. WA: Southwest, yep. They had -- JJ: Okay. That’s where your grandmother lived? WA: Yeah, there were Latinos around there too. JJ: So at Madison, some of them had -- WA: Yeah, south of Madison. JJ: Yeah, right around there? WA: Yeah. Now, you got the Eisenhower running through 290. (laughs) JJ: Right. At that time -- WA: In that time, the -- JJ: So were you there, do you remember, before the Eisenhower was built? WA: No, it wasn’t built yet when -- JJ: Oh, it wasn’t built yet. 8 �WA: -- I was here before, yeah. JJ: So where the Eisenhower was, there were Puerto Ricans? WA: Well, there was a highway there now, but I don’t remember seeing -- JJ: But Harrison was there? WA: Yeah, the streets were -- JJ: And your grandmother was there? WA: Yeah, Fifth Avenue was my grandmother -- JJ: [00:09:00] Did you say your grandmother’s name? Did you give me her name yet or no? WA: I didn’t give you my grandmother’s name. JJ: Can we get her name? It’s up to you. WA: It’s from my mother’s side. Actually, you know, it was a stepmother, so that was the grandmother that I’m talking about. But my grandmother from my father’s side -- [Agracia Ramon?]. JJ: Agracia Ramon, okay. So both of your brothers are here now too, right, at the same time? WA: Ruben and Sixto? They came down, yeah. JJ: In ’54? WA: No, they came in ’55. JJ: Fifty-five? WA: Yeah. JJ: Was there anyone here before ’55 from the family? WA: From my family? 9 �JJ: Yeah. WA: No, just -- JJ: They all came in ’55? WA: No. Fifty-four was my father, and then a couple of months later, I came. JJ: Okay. And your father came for what reason? WA: Looking for a better [00:10:00] way of living; a better life for themselves and for us both. I’m glad that I came to United States. (laughs) JJ: Mm-hmm. So what do you remember by the Windsor, growing up there? WA: Oh, not much ’cause we only spent about -- I want to say in ’57, we moved to 1308 North Cleveland, okay? And Cabrini Green was not there yet. This is before Cabrini Green was built on Division Street by the projects there, what they used to call them. And we lived a couple of blocks north of there on Cleveland Avenue. JJ: Who lived there at that time? WA: (Spanish). [00:10:50] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:10:51] WA: Yeah, and two Spanish families. You remember Nestor Hernandez? JJ: Yeah, I know Nestor. WA: Nestor was across [00:11:00] the street from me. He lived at 1309; I lived 1308. That’s how it was, and then also Hector Molina. JJ: Oh, you knew Hector Molina? WA: Yeah, tall guy. JJ: That’s a tall guy. 10 �WA: They lived on Evergreen. JJ: (Spanish). [00:11:17] WA: Yeah, on Evergreen, so that’s our neighborhood in the ’57 era. And that one -- JJ: So any problems with the Italians? WA: No, we’re family. Nobody came and messed around, and plus the Italians had the dogs and everything. (laughter) Nobody came to mess around there. People there in those days -- everybody knew each other. JJ: [Like a family?]. WA: Everybody sat outside. It didn’t matter; Puerto Rican, Italian, whatever. But Spanish families were the first ones in there. And then on North Avenue and Cleveland, my (Spanish) [00:11:57], Sebastian [Ramiri?] -- JJ: [00:12:00] Oh, Sebastian. WA: [Sebby?] lived on North Avenue in there with his parents in the house and -- JJ: So that’s the one that used to box? WA: Yeah, he used to box. JJ: So he boxed for -- was it CYO, or...? WA: CYO, yeah. JJ: And were they doing any work in the neighborhood, or...? WA: No. I mean -- JJ: I mean, I didn’t -- WA: -- we played ball. We had teams, YMCA. We went to [Action?] YMCA. That’s where we belonged when we did our stuff, and we played baseball, mainly, you know, softball. And it was -- 11 �JJ: So you had a team? WA: Yeah. JJ: What was the name of your team? WA: Well, we were, at first, the Flaming Arrows. JJ: Okay. You were in the Flaming Arrows, huh? WA: Yep, the Flaming Arrows. The best team they had (laughter) because I made sure they practiced and -- JJ: You mean you were the coach for -- WA: I was the captain of the team, yeah, and I -- JJ: So did you get voted in? [00:13:00] How’d you get that? WA: No. I was a little bit more knowledgeable in that area than other people and -- JJ: In the sports thing? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: And so you became the captain of the Flaming Arrows. And Sebastian was part of that team? WA: No, Sebastian was with the -- actually, he hung out more with the Italians, believe it or not. JJ: Oh, he did? WA: Yeah, he was more with the Italian guys, you know. The Latinos, most of us, were -- well, Frank was Italian, Frank [Regio?]. JJ: Frank Regio, yeah. [I know him?]. WA: Yeah, but you know, he’d speak Spanish like Puerto Rican and he spoke Italian too, you know. And he lived across the street from me too. Actually, Nestor and 12 �him lived in the same building, so that’s how it was on Cleveland. And then in January of ’61, I graduated [00:14:00] from grammar school, eighth grade, and went to George Manierre. JJ: Oh, you went to Manierre. WA: After Ogden, I went to George Manierre School, yeah. And then from there, I graduated -- JJ: What was Manierre like at that time? WA: It was mixed. There were a lot of Latinos ’cause I remember we used to get people that lived a little bit south of us from Division Street and around Hill Street, I think it was; the little street on the subway, I think. And the church we went to was St. Joseph, I think it is. JJ: St. Joseph? WA: The one right on the corner almost by -- this is the church that we used to go to, most of us. JJ: So was there a thing for Puerto Ricans at St. Joseph, or...? WA: They had Spanish masses. JJ: There at that time? WA: Yeah, they had Spanish masses in those days, and we went there. We -- JJ: Any activities for Spanish people? WA: Well, I think most people kept to themselves more than anything, to be honest, about it even though they knew each other. And [00:15:00] when they met, and there was some kind of a dance or something, everybody would know about it or 13 �something, you know. But one thing about it is friends. There were no gangs laying around, I mean, at least that we didn’t know. JJ: [Moving to the?] gangs later -- but you said everybody stayed to the -- WA: Yeah, one thing about my neighborhood -- it was a clean neighborhood. It was no garbage laying around. People were clean. That’s the way it was. JJ: So everybody took care of their own apartment and their own houses. WA: Yep, everybody took care of it. JJ: And everybody got along. You said they hung out on the porches. WA: We did have block parties, you know, for the block that we were in, you know, but that was, you know, just for the block party. And we used to go to festivities at Cabrini Green when, you know, the church and all the staff had festivities up there, [00:16:00] so... JJ: So Cabrini Green was all Black at that time, or...? WA: No, it had a lot of Latinos in there too. [Migos?] Claudio lived there with his whole family. JJ: Oh, Migos Claudio [lived there?]? WA: Jose [Reyes?] lived there with his family. JJ: Toothpick? (laughs) WA: Toothpick’s brother, Jose, yeah. Well, Toothpick too because Toothpick was there. They all lived together, and the two sisters. They all lived in Cabrini Green. A lot of Puerto Ricans lived in Cabrini Green. MA: A lot of [Puerto Ricans too?]. JJ: A lot of Puerto Ricans lived in Cabrini Green? 14 �WA: Yes. JJ: And this was in what year? WA: Oh, now, we went to the -- JJ: And what do you -- WA: Fifty-seven -- JJ: Fifty-seven. WA: -- to the ’60s, more or less. JJ: When a lot of Puerto Ricans were living in Cabrini Green? WA: Oh, yes. JJ: But what part of Cabrini, by Division? WA: By Division, yeah -- JJ: The white projects? WA: -- and Orleans. JJ: They called it the white projects or something like that? WA: I don’t know if they called it the white projects, but -- JJ: Okay, Division and Orleans. I don’t want to put words in your, you know... WA: Well, because we didn’t call it the [00:17:00] white -- JJ: Okay, I asked that -- WA: I just know that it was Cabrini Green, and it was made for people that were underserved a little bit, you know, families that didn’t make enough money. And they had to go to those places and get an apartment that they didn’t have to pay as much. JJ: And then -- 15 �WA: I graduated from Walter High School in January of 1961. JJ: But you went to Manierre. To eighth grade, or...? WA: To eighth grade, yeah. I was about in fifth or sixth grade when I went to Manierre. JJ: And so you said Manierre was okay, and it was mixed? WA: Yeah, it was mixed. JJ: No fighting, none of that at all? WA: It was the Italian -- JJ: No gangs, or...? WA: That’s the thing. In the old days when we’d fight, you know, you did something to me -- if I’d beat you up, we’d shake hands, and it was over. There was no holding any grudges. There was no grudges at all, you know, and [00:18:00] nobody got into the fight. It was just you and whoever the guy was, and I grew up like that. We didn’t have 10 guys jumping on one guy. No, that came later on, but -- JJ: So that was respectful -- WA: Yeah, it was a handshake after the fight. JJ: And it was just people [getting up to something?]? WA: Yeah, that’s the way it was. JJ: Okay. So what else do you remember about Manierre? WA: No, that’s about it. A couple of girls had fights, you know. JJ: That’s the -- 16 �WA: But here, again, it’s one-on-one. It’s no bunch of people fighting, you know, jumping in. JJ: A couple of girls, one-on-one, were fighting over [you?]? WA: Yep. They’d take off their bras, and some of them -- JJ: Oh, the girls would fight each other. WA: Yeah, and the guys just enjoyed the fight. We would wait and watch. [00:19:00] (laughter) Those days were not like today. You didn’t have people coming with a knife or a gun. None of that stuff existed, you know? The worst thing you ever saw was somebody took a bat, and that’s the worst weapon anybody ever did in those days, you know, so... JJ: I know that here, we were a little different, but I always know you guys were more into sports, you said, as opposed to -- WA: Yeah, we were about sports. Actually, at the Action YMCA, we had basketball. We had dodgeball. We had the baseball teams, you know, and we competed with each other, you know. But everything was done -- you know, even if you push me or something, I’ll push you back, and that’s [00:20:00] it, you know? And there was no, “Yo, I’m gonna beat you up,” or something. JJ: But it got a little rough around the edges, though, sometimes. WA: Oh, yeah, if it was something rough. JJ: Because, I mean, in some neighborhoods, people don’t even push each other. WA: No, they didn’t. JJ: So it was a little -- was it getting rough? When did it start turning rough? 17 �WA: Not during the grammar school days. Grammar school was not rough. It started from the high school area. JJ: In the high school era? WA: When you got into high school, then you had Walter, for instance, you know, which is Lincoln Park West right now. But in those days, we were known as the school that had every nationality you can think of. I mean, you name the nationality, we had it. JJ: At Walter? WA: Yeah. [00:21:00] You know, but the good thing about the Latinos -- we were the neutral group. And the reason we were neutral is because the whites didn’t like the Black, and the Blacks didn’t like the whites, and we like everybody. (laughter) So if they had a fight or something, they’d run away -- let’s say we’re gonna fight the Blacks. Okay, the whites will come. If we’re gonna fight the whites, the Blacks will come and help us, you know? But like I said, again, you didn’t have the guns or anything like that. That’s the good thing about it. And usually, it used to be -- JJ: And what did they fight about, the Blacks and the whites? WA: Nothing, because people are like that, I guess. You know, some people don’t like Black, and some people don’t like white. And some people don’t like Latinos, so... JJ: So some people didn’t like each other because of -- WA: Their race, maybe. JJ: Their race? 18 �WA: Yeah. Mainly, it was the race issue, but [00:22:00] I don’t know. I guess -- JJ: But that’s why they fought? They didn’t fight over girls or anything like that, or...? WA: Not to my knowledge. Did they fight over girls? Sorry, my -- JJ: About race, or...? WA: Yeah, I think somebody had, you know, some -- JJ: So can you give me an example of when they said something about race? Can you talk about -- WA: A Black person can call another Black person a nigger, but a white person cannot call a Black person a nigger, you know, so they would say that. Or the Italians were dagos, so they didn’t like being called dagos. You know, that's the - JJ: So people used words like dago and spic -- WA: Yeah, spic -- JJ: -- and stuff like that? WA: Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, that was -- JJ: And they would fight? WA: Yeah, ’cause if I’m Puerto Rican and you’re Puerto Rican, and I call you spic, well, you’re not gonna do nothing. But see, if a white person calls you a spic, or a Black guy, you know, you might wanna [00:23:00] do something about it. JJ: So was there any certain parts of the neighborhood you couldn’t go to? WA: Not in my time. JJ: No? WA: We could go anywhere. 19 �JJ: Was there any certain parts of the neighborhood that you had fights in? WA: No, because -- JJ: And let me give you a good example. At North Avenue Beach, we had a baseball game -- WA: There was a baseball game that we had, and we played baseball in Lincoln Park. And somebody came in. We had these white guys come in, and they took us out of our diamond. We were already there first. At that time, you had no appointments. If the diamond’s empty, you -- and we used to practice. We had both teams, and we would practice. And the only experience I ever had was these white guys, which were already adults, most of them, college kids or something. You know, we were still high school, a little smaller, but we were not afraid either. [00:24:00] So, you know, they came in, and Darwin Fuentes, another (Spanish) [00:24:05] of mine -- I don’t know if you know Darwin. JJ: Oh, Darwin. WA: Yeah, he has a shop -- JJ: He was a business guy. WA: He had a -- JJ: He had a business. WA: -- clothing store on Broadway, yeah. JJ: Clothing store on Broadway, uh-huh. WA: And he used to work for Herb’s Men’s Shop on North Avenue and Mohawk, the little, nice store on North Avenue. And he doesn’t keep quiet, so you know, he right away got smart with one of those guys. And we see they're bigger than we 20 �are, so you know, we’re not gonna attack, you know, and get beat up for no reason. So the funny thing is that in those days, we had the Braves baseball team, and these were adults. They were not kids, you know. They had their own kids, you know? And they saw what was happening, and [00:25:00] right away, they told one guy a couple of bad words, and the guy punched him in the face. And he went down, and he got up again and said, “You guys --” he punched him again, and he cut him a little bit. So we grabbed Darwin and pulled him to the side, and said, “Look, leave it alone. You know, they’re bigger than we are, and you know, they want it. Let them have their diamond.” But all the adults were practicing also, the baseball team. They came over, and they started the rumble. Those guys ran across Lakeshore Drive. They’d rather get hit by a car than fight the guy -JJ: Running on Lakeshore Drive? WA: Yeah, right inside Lincoln Park. But they jumped over the fence and over Lakeshore Drive, and that was the only big fight I ever really -- JJ: And then the -- WA: -- participated in that was something like that. But they’re the ones that started it. I mean, we were there already, and we were younger kids. JJ: Now, I thought that you were involved with the Black Eagles. WA: [00:26:00] Well, I wasn’t that involved with the Black Eagles. When [Louis Sias?] used to be the president of the Black Eagles, and the Flaming Arrows broke up when the Paragons came from New York. JJ: Paragons came from New York? 21 �WA: Yeah. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. WA: Yeah, they came from New York, and these were wild guys, you know. MA: Don’t mention them. WA: Why? MA: Don’t mention them. WA: So anyway, these guys came, and they started -- you know, they thought they were bad, I guess, you know, being from New York or something, and they brought bad habits with them. And some of the guys -- we broke up and -- JJ: When you say bad habit, what do you mean? WA: The weed. I mean, I personally didn’t -- JJ: Didn’t do -- WA: I didn’t smoke or drink or anything like that. JJ: -- drugs or something like that? WA: Yeah, they -- JJ: I remember that, [when they’d come?], yeah. WA: Yeah, so you know, [00:27:00] they were into the gangs and stuff like that, you know. And so we had broken up the Flaming Arrows, but what happened is that some of the guys went to the Eagles. Some guys went to the Paragons, you know, and that’s how the thing started, so... JJ: But I thought that you had become president for a while of the Black Eagles, no? WA: No. JJ: Oh, never? Okay. 22 �WA: No. I, again, kept, you know, the team, though, the baseball team, ’cause that’s the only time they started winning baseball games. (laughs) I was always the -- JJ: But you were the captain of the -- WA: But I had a voice, and I would, you know, put in my two cents. If I’d see something that wasn’t right, I’d put in my two cents and I’d say, “No, that’s not how things are.” But outside of that, hey, listen, I graduated and thank God I went to the armed forces in ’65. I got drafted. JJ: So tell me about that. Tell me about the armed forces. WA: Well, I got drafted in ’65. I was one of the last group, I think, that got drafted during Vietnam, [00:28:00] and I went to Fort Knox for basic. September 1965, I got drafted, and we took basic at Fort Knox. And then I took advanced -- JJ: What’s that like? I don’t know what that is. WA: Well, you learn how to shoot the rifle. You learn how to fight, you know, with the [bungee?] -- JJ: Physical? WA: No, no fists. (laughs) They got the -- JJ: Oh, the rifle, okay. WA: -- rifle that’s set, you know, so stuff like that and shooting at a target, you know. That’s what I learned there, and you know, a little bit of self-defense, and then I went to advanced training in Fort Bliss, Texas. And in Fort Bliss, Texas, I wound up with 16B20 MOS, and that was artillery. So I finished my artillery. I [00:29:00] made sergeant in 16 months. JJ: [Congratulations?]. That’s awesome. 23 �WA: And I never went to Vietnam either, so I was lucky. I worked with the Nike Hercules. That was my M1, and I was assigned to the warhead of the Nike Hercules. It’s only eight of us that was in that group. We had no back check. We didn’t belong to the 333rd Artillery. This is a individual group, so you know, I was lucky. You know, I fell in the right places, you know, and I had good grades, I guess, when they took my test. (laughs) So that kinda helped me with that, you know, but as far as hurting somebody just for the heck of it, I would never do that. I mean, I have my -- but like I said, again, in those days, we had our own fights. But we shook hands at the end of the fight, and it was over. JJ: So you mentioned [00:30:00] Action YMCA. WA: Action, yeah. JJ: What do you remember from that? WA: Oh, that’s where we did all our sports; swimming, everything. Action was the home for -- after school, you know, we’d go there. In the summer, we had, like I said, the baseball teams. You know, we’d never played soccer, but we’d play -- JJ: So who else was in the baseball team? What are their teams? WA: Well, the Paragons was a team at that time. The Black Eagles were a team. In the days before the Paragons came, we had the Flaming Arrows, and we had the Black Eagles. What other team? I think maybe the [Youngers?] might have been around -- JJ: Yeah, the Youngers were around [back then?]. WA: -- at that time. I think they were in there too. JJ: So you -- 24 �WA: Like I said, they were younger kids. JJ: Right, they were younger back then. WA: Yeah, but the older guys -- that’s what we did, mainly. JJ: But some of these people turned into gangs later. [00:31:00] Didn’t they turn into gangs, some of them, the young boys or any of the...? WA: Well -- JJ: And the Paragons turned more into gangs, huh? WA: Well, yeah, but you see what happens. A lot of them are dead doing their own things, you know, but -- JJ: Weeds and drugs and stuff like that? WA: Yeah. You live the life, you -- JJ: So why do you think they got that deep involved? I mean, you were there. Why do you think they went from, you know, playing sports to -- WA: Doing those other things? JJ: Yeah, doing those other things. WA: Well, by that time, I was already out of there. JJ: Oh, you was out there? WA: Out of the neighborhood. I was -- JJ: So you don’t remember? Okay. WA: I always grew up, I’ll be honest, in a nice neighborhood. I never lived in a neighborhood that was bad, so I got to give you that. That’s one thing I always deal with myself. Since I have my kids now, they can’t say they live in a bad 25 �neighborhood. We always lived in a good neighborhood, had a home, you know, so... JJ: And who did -- WA: We -- JJ: -- that? Who made sure that you did that, [00:32:00] you or her? WA: My father. If I wasn’t home by eight o’clock at night, I got whipped, so -- JJ: When you say whipped, what do you mean? How did he whip you? WA: With the belt. JJ: Oh, it was a belt. WA: Hell, yeah. He’d say I was supposed to be here at 7:30, not eight o’clock. JJ: Was that normal? ’Cause today, that’s (inaudible). WA: Today, the kids come home at 12:00 midnight, but that’s why that you gotta -- JJ: But when you grew up, they -- WA: Oh, my mom and dad were strict. And in my house, not one guy gets whipped. It’s three of us, and my father whipped all three. Even though the other two [had nothing to say?], he said, “That’s in case you guys want to laugh about it,” you know, so that’s the way he was. That was good ’cause Sixto, second after me, never cried. And I always used to tell him -- ’cause my dad touched me one time with the belt, and I’m screaming. But Sixto would just [00:33:00] take it. He was very hard. He would not cry, and I would say, “Man, just cry.” But Ruben and I would start crying. One hit, and I’m crying, you know, so you don’t get -- JJ: To get him to stop? WA: Yeah. 26 �JJ: But he wasn’t -- WA: No, he just did it because, hey, what he says -- in those days, you respect your parents. I mean, you know, you don’t just tell your parents this or that in those days. You know, I never swear. I even tell my kids, “You never hear me swear, but you swear.” That’s the way it is, but that’s the way they come up. But, you know, that’s -- JJ: What about church and that? Where did you guys go to church at? WA: We went to Holy Name. I made my first communion -- JJ: Holy Name Cathedral? WA: -- in Holy Name Cathedral, yeah. I made my first communion there, and I did my -- the one that comes after the... MA: Confirmation. WA: Confirmation, [00:34:00] also. I did my confirmation at Holy Name -- JJ: At Holy Name? WA: -- Cathedral, yeah. JJ: So -- WA: So Holy Name. St. Joseph was also -- JJ: Were there Spanish people there at Holy Name? WA: Yeah, sure, there were Spanish. JJ: So there was -- WA: I went to the cathedral in my days in Ogden School ’cause it’s Ogden and State, and the cathedral was on Chicago Avenue and State. JJ: So you went to public school, and then you went to Catholic church? 27 �WA: Catechism. JJ: Catechism. WA: I had catechism. Yeah, that’s where I went to -- [well, also?] the Lawson YMCA on Chicago Avenue, you know. We went there also. I was in the swimming team there too. We had -- JJ: Were there other Spanish people there? WA: Yeah. We had really -- JJ: That’s awesome. But [what was the?] year? WA: Huh? JJ: What year was that? WA: This is ’55, ’56, yeah. JJ: And the whole neighborhood was Latino? WA: Yeah, mm-hmm. And also, like I said, we went to [00:35:00] St. Joseph -- JJ: On [Clark?]? WA: -- in Orleans, yeah. They had Spanish masses there, yeah. JJ: Were there any activities? Did anybody organize anything? WA: Not too many functions. Most of the activities was at St. Michael’s on Cleveland and North Avenue. JJ: What kind of activities did they -- WA: Everything. My wife and I, when we were high school friends, went to dance there. All the guys used to go dance there. I don’t know if you remember Jose Rodrigeuz, Joseito. JJ: Oh, Jose? 28 �WA: Yeah, that’s the -- JJ: Actually, he’s my third cousin. WA: Is he really? Okay. And his brother, you know, passed away. Was it Manny? JJ: Carmero. WA: Carmero. JJ: Carmero. WA: Carmero used to be a teacher at Roberto Clemente, and his wife. So we were the dancers. We were the guys that knew [00:36:00] all the steps with -- JJ: Oh, you were a dancer [back then?], huh? WA: We used to practice, yeah. (laughs) JJ: But did you dance Spanish or English? WA: Spanish, mainly. That’s what it was ’cause that’s where you do some nice steps, you know. English is, you know... JJ: And Jose danced particularly good too, yeah? WA: Oh, hell yeah. All of us were. Carmero -- JJ: [All of you?] too, huh? WA: We used to practice together. We used to practice dancing, you know, so -- JJ: Oh, the cha-cha-cha and -- WA: -- all the girls would want to dance with us. (laughs) JJ: The cha-cha-cha, [you did also?]? WA: Yep, I danced everything. I used to be good. I still got a little swing. JJ: (Spanish) [00:36:36] had a lot of dances. WA: Oh, we had a lot of dances there. And then also, we had it -- 29 �MA: At (Spanish). [00:36:41] WA: (Spanish) [00:36:42] had one, the one on Clark and Southport where it comes by Wrigley Field. JJ: Oh, at Wrigley Field. WA: Yeah, there used to be that -- JJ: So they had dances? WA: -- (Spanish). [00:36:53] JJ: Oh, (Spanish) [00:36:55], I see. WA: (Spanish) [00:36:56] used to be there. JJ: That’s the best one. WA: I played ball for the (Spanish). [00:37:00] JJ: Oh, you did? WA: In the old days, yeah. And I played for (Spanish) [00:37:03] at St. Michael’s. JJ: Oh, you played at St. Michael’s too for (Spanish) -- [00:37:07] WA: Yep, and then I played for the Puerto Rican Parade. I played for the -- what was those [things that?] -- JJ: What did you play? WA: Third base. JJ: Third base, [that’s the one?]? WA: Third base, yeah, the hot corner. (laughs) Good reflexes. JJ: Actually, the ball goes higher than third base. That’s the way they are. WA: Yeah, that’s -- JJ: You have to be good to play that. 30 �WA: It’s a basic corner. JJ: Yeah, basic corner. (laughs) So you played a lot of sports? WA: I was into sports, yeah. I was very athletic in my young age. That’s why my kids -- whatever kinda sport they wanna play, I tell ’em, “When you go to high school, whatever sport they have, get in it. Join. You know, try to play.” JJ: Can you describe, because somebody that’s never been there at that time -[00:38:00] what were the games like? I mean, if you went to the game -- I remember we went and [saw pasteles?] and stuff like that, so that was our thing. But other people were -- I heard noises and people singing, I mean, chants and [other things?]. [00:38:16] I mean, what do you remember? WA: Well, we had a good team, so people used to like us. I mean, a lot of people went to see the games there. They were always pulling for us. Whenever we played our games, they pulled for us, yeah. JJ: So what do you mean, they pulled for you? WA: I mean, you know, they’d cheer us more than the other -- we had a good fan, you can say -- JJ: Fans? WA: Yeah, we had a lot of fans. JJ: Were there a lot of families that came, or...? WA: Yeah, families always were there. My wife and my kids would come to see me play ball, you know. Sometimes they would walk around by North Avenue Beach and that ’cause we used to play ball [00:39:00] always at Lincoln Park. And then 31 �we’d play at Humboldt Park. You know, we also played there. I played organized leagues, you know. JJ: So you played at Humboldt Park and Lincoln Park. And then -- WA: I played at a lot of parks. JJ: Yeah. Your wife went to the beach while you guys played? WA: Well, they’d walk around the park if we had the kids and that, but you know, she would go and stay there or walk around. JJ: So were there a lot of Spanish people at that time, then? WA: Yeah, a lot of Spanish people. JJ: What does that mean? WA: A lot. At that time, we already had, at Clemente, Puerto Rican. I had Puerto Rican friends that were policemens already, you know, and a lot of the guys that I grew up with are policemens and detectives and what have you, you know, so... JJ: Some of the guys from the Flaming Arrows -- were they policemen or -- WA: Yeah, Frank Regio. JJ: Frank Regio? WA: He’s the sergeant in the police department. He retired as a sergeant down there. JJ: Who else from the neighborhood was a policeman? MA: Louis. WA: There’s so many, and I can’t -- MA: [00:40:00] Louis Sias. WA: Well, Louis Sias, yeah. He was a policeman -- JJ: Oh, Louis Sias? 32 �WA: -- too, yeah, Louis. MA: And Pete Rivera. WA: Huh? MA: Pete Rivera. WA: Oh, Pete Rivera. (Spanish), [00:40:08] yeah. JJ: Oh, yeah, [that’s the?] -- WA: (Spanish), [00:40:10] we used to call him. (laughs) JJ: I was gonna interview him. WA: Pete? Yeah, he was one of the -- MA: Down at the -- WA: -- counselors in that time. He was one of the counselors for the Latinos and stuff like that. MA: Helped them out with everything. WA: Helped the kids, you know. He was involved with all the kids. JJ: You mean with the YMCA? WA: Yeah, The Y and everything. JJ: He did that? Okay. WA: He’s always been involved with us. That’s, you know, always -- I don’t know. My thing is if you do the right thing, things good are gonna happen. That’s the way it is. If you’re doing the best thing, the best things are gonna happen, you know, so that’s... JJ: So you would tell people to do that, or that’s just -- WA: Sure, I would. 33 �JJ: -- the way you do [everything like that?]? WA: Yeah, I would tell ’em that. [00:41:00] You know, it’s like I do with my grandkids right now. You know, I tell ’em, “This is this, and this is that.” And you can only tell ’em. You know, like they say, when the kids are out, you don’t know what the heck they’re doing. You only know when you’re watching them, and that’s it. But if you show good morals -- JJ: Good morals, uh-huh. WA: -- they’ll come up with good morals. That’s the way to -- JJ: What other things do you try to tell the grandkids? WA: Study; go to school. Don’t lie ’cause lying is the worst thing you do. Once you become a liar, that’s it. People don’t believe you for anything. Be responsible. Be motivated. Always, you know, move yourself and move others with you. You know, that’s what you gotta teach ’em. Those are the things that you teach your kids right off the bat ’cause there’s three things I live by. It’s responsible ’cause [00:42:00] when I had to be at work at nine o’clock in the morning, I was there at a quarter to 9:00 ’cause if you get there at 9:00, you’re late. That’s what I tell my kids. So I got there a quarter to 9:00 so I knew that I was not late. Okay, that’s responsibility. Honesty. A guy left 10 dollars on the table? He’ll come back, and the 10 dollars will still be there. That’s another thing that I always say, you know, and then don’t lie ’cause those three things are the ones that are part of, you know, doing things the right way. JJ: Did you learn that in school? Where’d you learn that at? 34 �WA: I learned that in school. I learned how to be a businessman at Walter High School ’cause in the old days, you went to high school. And if you paid attention and did things the right way, you gonna learn to do things. And I always wanted to be a businessman. And when I went to [00:43:00] Walter, they had how, you know, to be self-employed and have your own business, and how to run a business. I learned that in high school. JJ: And they had business classes, or...? WA: They had a business class, and then I had my -- one class was in the classroom, and the other class was with a job. I worked, so I went and I practiced work while I was learning. So I was selling when I was in high school. Already, I had a job at work. When I finished high school -- JJ: And what were you selling? You already had a job. WA: I was selling -- JJ: Selling what? I mean -- WA: I was a salesman. You know, what I had, mainly, is clothing and jewelry, and I learned, you know, how to promote a sale, you know. JJ: How did you get the job of selling? WA: Well, you have to get a job in order to -- JJ: Oh, to be a part of that program? WA: ’Cause one half of the credit is [00:44:00] on job training, and the other half is in the room. The teacher would test you in this and that, and you learned how to promote a sale. You know, let’s say you would come in the store. You want to buy a suit. 35 �JJ: Oh, man, don’t get that on tape. WA: And I look at you, and I already know what size you -- JJ: Don’t put that on the tape. (laughter) WA: He owes me a suit. JJ: “That guy owes me a suit!” WA: Yeah. And, you know, I always told my guys at work, “When a customer comes in, two things you don’t do is don’t ask him what color he wants, and don’t ask him what size. ‘Cause when you [tell him the things?], you take the tape measure to his waist, and now you know what he is.” You know, if you come in and you say, “I want a shirt,” my salesman will say to you, “Well, what size do you need?” See, you don’t have to know. You should measure that person. Let ’em know you know what you’re doing, okay? [00:45:00] So I tell ’em, “You measure the person, and then you say, ‘Okay, here’s what I have in your size, all this here.’ Don’t say, ‘What color do you need,’ ’cause if he asks you for a royal blue, and you don’t have it, you lost the sale already without starting the sale. But if you show him shirts, he’ll see a bunch of colors. ‘Oh, yeah, I like this one. I like that one.’ Let him be the guy who picks the stuff, you know? You just show him, ‘Here’s what I got in your size.’” And, you know, instead of some guys -they’re 34 waist, and God forbid you give them a 36 because I see a lot of guys come in and tell me, “Oh, yeah, I’m 32.” You say, “Okay, no problem.” So I will just give them a [purple?] and say, “Here, try this one on and see how it fits.” “Oh, yeah, this fits nice.” “Oh, okay. You want me to measure the length for you?” 36 �JJ: “You’re a 38.” (laughter) WA: ’Cause that’s the way it is, you know? I knew. I can look at you, and I know what size you wear in a suit, you know, but that was my business. [00:46:00] That’s what I learned. I can sell ice to an Eskimo. That’s the way it is. (laughter) JJ: But you learned that in Walter. You didn’t learn that -- WA: At Walter. JJ: -- from your family? WA: No. JJ: That’s the -- WA: I learned at Walter the underground -- in other words, the knowledge for it. But on the job is where I learned the real thing: what’s going on and how you gotta do things like that. JJ: So Walter High School was pretty good at that time? WA: Sure. I had printing shop. I’d read backwards because of going to printing shop. I had wood shop. I used to make a lamp, you know, out of wood and all that, the base and the legs and everything else. There were a lot of things when I was at Walter. I took a lot of shop classes, so it’s why I’m handy. When I do something at the house, I [00:47:00] know how to take care of it. You know, I don’t have to get men to come and do it. I do it myself. JJ: So they had a lot of trade? WA: Yeah. JJ: And you tried to -- WA: It wasn’t a trade school, but they had a lot of -- 37 �JJ: They had a lot of [elective work?]? WA: -- things you could learn. If you want to be a mechanic, you have to go to Tuley. JJ: Oh, Tuley had mechanics [courses?]. WA: Tuley had the mechanics, yeah. They had -- JJ: What years was this? So the schools were -- WA: This was in the -- MA: Sixties. WA: -- early ’60s. JJ: Early ’60s from -- WA: Yeah, from ’60, ’61, so -- JJ: Tuley had mechanic shop, and Walter had print shop and -- WA: Yeah, we had the -- JJ: -- business? WA: -- print shop. Yeah, we had all that stuff. JJ: And home ec? WA: Business courses, typing. I’d type. I used to do all that stuff, yeah. I also did mechanical drawing; could’ve been an architect. JJ: So how far did you go into Walter? WA: All the way. I graduated. JJ: You graduated? WA: Yeah. JJ: So other people from the Flaming Arrows -- where did they graduate? WA: Well, the ones who did was from Walter, maybe. 38 �JJ: The ones -- WA: Some from Wells High School, [00:48:00] you know, but the ones that didn’t graduate -- JJ: But when you look at the Flaming Arrows, you’re looking mainly at the sports team, right? WA: Well, that’s what we liked to do. That’s what we had. We were not into fighting or smoking or drinking. That’s not what we did. We did the opposite. JJ: That’s true. That’s what I [gathered?] about -- WA: Hey, listen, to stay healthy -- I wanna be 103, so... JJ: Well, when there was a little thing you guys did, the whole neighborhood sometimes got together and had a fight or something, no? You mentioned the baseball game. WA: Well, usually, you didn’t have fights in baseball, but the fights were -- this group of guys that were older than we were came in and, that same day, showed up around there after that. And -- JJ: And then baseball usually gets -- WA: Yeah, that was the only time -- JJ: It was just one time. WA: Yep, it was a one-time thing. JJ: So did you guys go around Halsten and Dickens? WA: Oh, sure. JJ: What was that like? WA: Walter High School [00:49:00] is right there. How can we not be -- 39 �JJ: So what was Halsten and Dickens like? WA: Well, I didn’t hang around there. I went there, but I didn’t hang around. I mean -- JJ: Where did you hang around? WA: I didn’t hang around. (laughs) JJ: Not even hanging (inaudible)? WA: No. JJ: Just sports, and that was it? WA: Sports. I’d come home and, you know, do my homework and that, and that was it. I didn’t do too much hanging around. JJ: It was more the Paragons and all of them? WA: Yeah. Well, we had dances also at the YMCA. JJ: So what were the dances at The Y like? WA: All the high school guys. JJ: So the high school guys and them -- WA: The girls -- JJ: -- [would go to these dances from Walter]? WA: Yeah, they went to Walter and -- JJ: So they were decent dances? WA: Yeah, in those days, it was. JJ: No big fighting or anything? WA: No, that’s what I mean. We were a fun group. Nobody was looking for any fights or anything, you know. Everything was normal, you know, not... JJ: Did the neighborhood change at all? 40 �WA: [00:50:00] Where? JJ: At Lincoln around North Avenue? WA: Well, sure. Right now, it’s a very good neighborhood. JJ: That good? WA: It costs a lot of good money to buy a house around here. JJ: And the other Puerto Ricans neighborhoods are not so good today? (laughter) WA: Yeah, well, it’s -- JJ: I’m joking. WA: Yeah, I know, but there’s still a lot of Puerto Ricans holding onto their -- JJ: To their properties? WA: -- properties, yeah. The guy who owned just about the whole neighborhood there was the hardware store, Frank. JJ: Frank. WA: Remember Frank’s hardware store across the street from the church there? JJ: At Armitage, yeah. WA: By, yeah, [Sheffield?] and that. JJ: He owned the whole block? WA: He owned the whole neighborhood. JJ: Really? WA: He owned, you know, almost every home, building, [shops?] around there. JJ: Frank? WA: And then, you know, what’s his name Carlos Flores -- he’s dead -- had that corner building on Armitage by -- 41 �JJ: Oh, he took me to that building. WA: Yeah, a big building he had there, so you know, some Puerto Ricans -- JJ: Did Mario Rivera have any -- WA: -- did all right. Mario -- JJ: At this point. WA: Junior or the -- JJ: Junior. WA: Junior has (Spanish). [00:51:00] JJ: (Spanish). [00:51:01] WA: But his father is the original. On Clark Street, he was the original in the ’50s. JJ: And who were some of the other businesses that you remember? Who gave haircuts? WA: Oh, man -- JJ: The barber. WA: -- we used to go to -- I forget its name, God. JJ: Well, who is -- WA: We lived in the same building on Sedgwick. We lived on the third floor, and he lived on the second floor. And then he went to Puerto Rico with his wife and daughter. Well, [Omelina?] -- JJ: Omelina. WA: -- was his name, and I can’t think -- JJ: Oh, yeah, Omelina. 42 �WA: Yeah, and that’s it. And then I used to also get haircuts on Clark Street by Chicago Avenue. It was owned by Puerto Ricans and that in those days, but I don’t remember their names, really. JJ: Okay. So [00:52:00] we talked about the school, and then we talked about when you got married. How did that happen? WA: I told Maria if she wants to get married... (laughter) MA: That’s such a -- WA: I was in the service, and we were going out, you know, when I went in. And I came out in September of ’67, and we got married in November of ’66, November 5. And that was it. Decided we wanted to get married, and so we got married. And at that time, my mom lived at 2250 North Lincoln. JJ: Lincoln? WA: Lincoln Avenue, yeah. MA: It was already changing. WA: Yeah, it was already getting (inaudible) [00:53:00] in the late ’60s. Well, when I came in ’67, we rented an apartment at 1341 West Addison. That was my first apartment ever ’cause I always lived at home with my family when I was a kid. I went straight from the house to the Army, so you know, I never lived alone. First time alone was when I went in the Army, so you can say that my upbringing was because, you know, in the Army, I learned, you know, a lot of hard work. When they tell you, “Clean the latrine,” you clean the latrine and make sure that it shines when you get outta there. You don’t want to have no complaints, and that’s always been my motto. When I do something, I make sure that I clean 43 �after myself. I keep it clean. Right now, when we’re together, Maria and I, I’m always washing because I like, you know, keeping things clean. It may be two cups only, but [00:54:00] you know, I’ll make sure that they’re clean and put ’em away. So it’s a habit that you learn, and I always carry myself that way. When I do things, I do it the right way. I’m not gonna do a sloppy job, and that’s it. So we got married, and hey, it’s been 51 years. JJ: Congratulations. WA: Fifty-one years, yeah. And of course, the product that we have raised are beautiful. (laughs) And they’re all smart, and they have a good head on their shoulders. And it’s because, you know, I always said that, “You gotta go to school, you know. You wanna be somebody? You gotta do your job and do the best you can, whatever you are. You wanna be a garbage man or whatever? You make sure that you’re the best there is because that’s the way it is, you know?” JJ: What’s the best thing that you liked about growing up there in that neighborhood? WA: [00:55:00] The neighborhoods that I grew up in? JJ: Well, yeah, the neighborhood -- WA: Chicago? JJ: Yeah, Chicago Avenue and -- WA: Well, I’ve always lived in a nice neighborhood, I’ll be honest. I never lived on Chicago Avenue, you know? I always lived north. Like I said, my first apartment was in Wrigleyville on Southport and Addison, 1341. That was my first 44 �apartment. My second apartment was 3624 North Wayne a half a block north of Addison and a half a block east of Southport. JJ: So you were living in Lake View? WA: Lake View area, yeah, always. JJ: Okay. But I meant in Lincoln Park. WA: Not Lake View area. That’s -- P1: No, that’s right. WA: -- Wrigleyville. JJ: Wrigleyville. P1: More like -- WA: Wrigley, yeah. JJ: That must’ve been somewhere just -- P1: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WA: Lake View, yeah. JJ: But I meant in Lincoln Park, what was the -- WA: In Lincoln Park when I -- JJ: What do you remember about Lincoln? WA: Oh, Lincoln Park’s been a beautiful park. It’s always been a nice park. It’s -- JJ: I mean the neighborhood. WA: [00:56:00] The neighborhood’s always been nice. It’s not a bad neighborhood. I mean, you had how many Puerto Ricans on Wieland Road, Irish -- JJ: On Wieland? WA: Wieland, yeah. 45 �JJ: So did you always live around Puerto Ricans when you were there? WA: Yeah, my neighbors were Puerto Rican. JJ: So, I mean, there was a lot of Puerto Ricans around you? WA: Not when I -- see, when I got my first home that I bought -- JJ: I’m putting stuff in your head. I don’t want to do that. WA: No, the first home I bought was my second move. We moved from that apartment that I got when I came out of the Army into this home rented, okay? This was in ’68 that we moved to that house. Sixty-eight or ’69? Sixty-eight. And Maria went first before me and talked to the landlord or the owner of the house ’cause they had the apartment for rent, and [00:57:00] she said that she wanted to move there. And then Maria went and talked to the lady. “Oh, yes, I’m gonna bring my husband in the evening.” So I came with her, and when she saw me, (laughs) she said, “A little bit darker than...” And I -- JJ: Something about you being Black? WA: Yeah, well, you know, Puerto Rican. JJ: They didn’t like that? WA: Well, her sister has a building in your neighborhood. JJ: Who’s that? WA: The Germans, Streitenfeld. Her sister had a building on Dickens -- MA: Halsted. WA: -- and Halsted right in that area. JJ: Oh, they had the -- 46 �WA: Oh, you know, and that’s all Puerto Ricans around there at that time. And oh, she was so upset that, “These people are so dirty and [cockroaches?].” I said, “Well, listen, ma’am. I’m only a half a block away from here. Go check our apartment. See how it is. We’ve been there already for a year, you know, [00:58:00] living there.” JJ: So you just talked bad about my neighborhood. (laughter) WA: Yeah, well -- JJ: But anyway, at this point -- WA: -- ’cause she thought that I was that type of a person. Right away, you know, they brand you by the neighborhood. MA: On my own, [they didn’t happen?], and they were very nice. JJ: Oh, they [were good to you?]? WA: They brand you in a minute, you know, but what happened is they did rent to us, you know. JJ: So you told them, “I don’t live with those people”? MA: No. WA: No, it's not that. I want you to -- JJ: But you let ’em know at that time. WA: Yeah, and you know what? MA: [It had started?] -- WA: You can say what you want. I said, “But, you know, we’re not those type of people. You can see my apartment, how my wife and I keep our house. And we --” 47 �JJ: Yeah, ’cause that’s the -- WA: “-- have a little girl already, Melissa.” So they didn’t even come to see the apartment. They just took my word for it. JJ: And they took your word for it. MA: [And that’s what they wanted?]. (laughs) WA: And I told them that I worked in, you know, the clothing store and all that. JJ: You know, the reason I say that is because that actually happened to me. You know, I went, and they told [00:59:00] me they had an apartment. And then when I got and brought my mother, then she said, “No, the apartment is rented,” because maybe they don’t [allow that?]. And they said it was okay, but then when I brought my mother -- WA: “She’s like me.” (laughter) So that’s what happened with Maria -- JJ: You know how -- WA: -- but you know what’s nice about it? JJ: So was that going on? MA: Oh, sure. WA: Oh, sure, it happened. She right away said, “Oh, no,” and she started telling me the story about her sister with the building in Halsted. And I said, “I want you to know that I graduated from Walter High School, you know? And yes, there is people like that in that area, but I’m not like that. And you don’t have to believe me, but you can go to our apartment if you want to check references.” And we wound up getting the apartment, so we rented that apartment. And the first winter -- the owner used to come and clean the snow and everything. But then 48 �[01:00:00] what happened is that whenever it snowed, I would get up in the morning early and clean up the side. I’d clean up the front ’cause I didn’t want Maria and the baby to fall or something going down the stairs. So every time he came, the place was clean already, you know. Two years later, he decided he wants to sell the house, so he says, “Yeah, I’m thinking of selling the house.” But in the meantime, he lived on Lawrence and Hamlin. JJ: And Hamlin? WA: Lawrence and Hamlin, a corner home. Real nice home, and he invited us for dinner, so we went to have dinner at his house. So we talked, and we made the deal on the house. And at that time, you know, Maria and both worked, and we had like 5000 dollars saved. So I told him, “Well, I got 5000 dollars that I can put down, and I’ll see if I can get the bank to [01:01:00] give me the...” At that time, the house was 21,300 dollars, so he says to me, “I’ll tell you what. I’ll give you a personal loan for three years for 5000 dollars more.” So now, I got 10,000 dollars to put down on the house, and I only had to finance 13,000 dollars on that house. Double lots. Bought that house; we made the deal. I paid 171 dollars mortgage a month. I used to make 230 dollars in rent from the two apartments downstairs. MA: Those were the days, man. WA: Oil heat, 18 cents a gallon, but I used to clean the furnace myself. I used to do everything. I would come out blacker than the shirt you have on, you know, because when you’re with all the carbon and all that stuff, my face and everything was, you know... [01:02:00] And then I’m wearing gloves and a long 49 �sleeve sweater because otherwise, I’d really be -- and from that house, two years later, we bought another home. And I still kept that house, and I bought it on 5837 North Spaulding by Hollywood Park between Kedzie and Spaulding. So that’s my second home. Then, we sold that house, and we made a profit on it. In the meantime, we had a fire at the house on Wayne, and so the whole place had to be emptied. So what I did is I had the first floor opened up, you know, ’cause in the old days, they had small rooms. And the living room is small, the dining [01:03:00] room -- you know, so I knocked down walls inside the house, you know, ’cause the insurance gave me 30,000 bucks to do the work. And they put new windows and everything in it. I didn’t care about the money. The insurance is giving me money anyway, and I had, you know, the insurance that I paid. But they did everything the way we wanted it, so we moved back into the house there. JJ: And the house was located where? WA: Thirty-six 24 North Wayne. JJ: North Wayne, that’s right. WA: Mm-hmm. And then it came out that (Spanish) [01:03:34] Louis Sias and his brother had a building at 1409 West Byron, and they were gonna sell the building. So I bought that building from them, and I still kept the house there. This is in ’72, ’73, around there. And the building had three apartments because they had a basement apartment, and they [01:04:00] had the first and second floor. So I was getting rent from the building, so it pays itself. I didn’t have to pay 50 �too much, you know, and I bought it because I put her mother on one floor and I put my mother on the other floor. So I had my two -MA: Look out. WA: (laughs) Both of my moms -- MA: (Spanish). [01:04:20] JJ: (Spanish). [01:04:23] WA: So I had my two moms together, you know, and then the one apartment, I rented to this Dominican guy. He’s a CTA bus driver, so he picked up almost the tab for paying the mortgage on the building and everything because, you know, he had reasonable rent. And the area is a nice area, you know. And that building -- I sold it in 1998. I paid 115. We sold it for 400,000, but Uncle Sam killed me with the -- JJ: All the -- WA: -- tax, [01:05:00] so I said, “What are you gonna do?” But what happened after that is that before I sold the building, the store where I worked at, Gaslight, came up for sale. So I needed 50,000 bucks cash to buy half of the store. So since I already had fixed up the house on Wayne and lived there, the bus driver -- you know, I told him that, “I’m gonna need that apartment.” So I gave him two free months’ rent and, you know, said, “I’ll give you two months to move, and you don’t have to pay me anything.” And, you know, he was a nice guy. We had a good relationship, so he moved out, and I went in and I took that apartment. I sold my house on Wayne, and I got the 50,000 to buy Gaslight, that 50 percent. JJ: What year was this? 51 �WA: 1978. JJ: Seventy-eight? Okay. WA: Seventy-eight. JJ: And [01:06:00] you just got into the business of clothing? WA: Yeah, but I’ve been doing it all my life. JJ: But you were doing it all your life, so -- WA: Since high school, I’ve been doing this -- JJ: Yeah, you were selling it. WA: Yeah, selling and buying. JJ: But was Darwin connected with you at the time? WA: I had my stuff before (Spanish) [01:06:14] Darwin. JJ: Before him? WA: No, he was not connected with me at all. JJ: Okay, so he learned from you. I mean, he got connected with -- WA: No, he worked at Herb’s on North Avenue. He -- JJ: Oh, that’s right, Herb’s. WA: Oh, yeah, he worked for a long time also in the store. MA: And my brother worked for him. JJ: Oh, your dad worked for him? MA: No, my brother -- JJ: Oh, your brother. MA: -- worked for Darwin. JJ: For Darwin? 52 �MA: I don’t know if you know him. Alan or Bob used to work there. WA: Yeah, he worked with Tony. JJ: I meant that one, then, ’cause he had it there on Clark Street, didn’t he? MA: Yeah, Taurus. WA: It used to be The Windjammer -- MA: And then Taurus. WA: Yeah, but Taurus was his business when he opened it. But he worked at Herb’s, and they moved to Belmont in Central Park. JJ: Oh, Central Park, [01:07:00] okay. WA: And it became The Windjammer at that time, the store. JJ: But they have one on Clark Street, don’t they now? WA: Huh? JJ: It was on Clark Street? WA: No. JJ: Or was it -- MA: Maybe he worked there? WA: No, The Windjammer was on North Avenue. JJ: I’m trying to figure out -- then he must’ve worked for somebody. Okay, but -- WA: Yeah, he worked on North Avenue. When he was in high school, he was working for Herb. JJ: You mentioned North Avenue, but I’m saying I saw him around Clark Street or something like that. 53 �WA: Well, yeah, ’cause that’s when he opened up his own store. It was on Broadway, though. JJ: On Broadway. WA: It was on Broadway, yeah. JJ: It was Broadway, yeah. WA: Yeah, just north of Diversey. JJ: Yeah, north of Diversey. WA: Twenty-nine Hundred North on Diversey. JJ: Yeah, that’s where I saw him. WA: He had -- JJ: So that was his store. WA: Yeah, Tauru, T-A-U-R-U. MA: Yeah, Tauru. WA: Yeah, actually, that’s his month that he was born, a Taurus. MA: His birth sign. WA: His birth sign, yeah, Taurus. JJ: A Taurus? MA: Mm-hmm. WA: Yeah. But no, in ’78, I was a pioneer -- JJ: But he went to your group? I mean, you were all friends. You grew up together in Lincoln -- WA: I taught him how to ride [01:08:00] a bicycle. JJ: You taught him how to ride a bicycle? 54 �WA: At Ogden. Him and I both went to Ogden School. JJ: So you lived in the same block? WA: No, he lived by -- JJ: But you went to the same school? WA: Yeah, we went to the same school, but he lived more by Chicago Avenue. I was by Division and -- JJ: Oh, he lived by Chicago Avenue? WA: Yeah. JJ: Okay, I get it. WA: So, you know, yeah, I taught him how to ride a bicycle. But, you know, we’ve always been -- you know, growing up in -- JJ: Did he hang out at Halsten and Dickens? WA: Huh? JJ: Did Darwin hang out at Halsten and Dickens? WA: Oh, sure, he’d hang out wherever he wanted, that guy. JJ: He was one of those peoples that I don’t know. WA: Yeah, he’d hang out all over. JJ: I don’t know him, okay? (laughter) WA: But no, I kept most of my friends who are still, you know, there. You know, but that’s what happened in ’78, and then we had a contract that if anything happened to him, his wife would have to sell me the other percentage. And if [01:09:00] something happened to me, she had to sell back to him whatever, you know -- but he passed away in ’82. And then I bought out the balance of the 55 �store in ’83, and that’s it. But I’ve been running the store since ’78 by myself. He bought a motel in Florida. JJ: Okay. That’s where he’s at right now? WA: No, he’s six feet under. JJ: Oh, that’s right. He’s dead. WA: He died in ’83, yeah. But his son had the motel, and they sold it. They got rid of it, you know, but he lives in Florida. His son’s still alive. He’s 65 now. JJ: And you kind of retired now. You’re just -- WA: I retired in ’07. JJ: In ’07? Okay. WA: Yeah, 10 years already, I’ve been retired. Actually, it’s gonna be -- JJ: So what are you doing now in your retirement? WA: Nothing. I mean, when you retire -- JJ: Okay, well -- WA: I’ll tell you what I do. JJ: Fishing or anything -- you don’t fish, or...? WA: I don’t fish, no. That’s a boring -- JJ: That’s boring for you. MA: For him. WA: I play golf. JJ: Oh, you [01:10:00] play golf. WA: I play golf, yeah. That, I do. JJ: I don’t know anything about that. 56 �WA: Yeah, I play golf. JJ: Okay. I got friends that play that. I just don’t know anything about that. WA: Yeah, see, I picked that up also early in life. I picked it up in the ’60s or early ’70s. I mean, I stopped playing baseball in ’71. That’s when I started picking up golf, when I stopped playing baseball, because now, you know, I had the full-time job at the store and I couldn’t. The salesmans used to take me out, and I would, you know, play golf with them and all that, so yeah. JJ: Okay, so let’s kind of go to kind of finish up the interview and that. What’s the main thing that you want people to remember about growing up or anything like that in Lincoln Park or -- you know, not, [01:11:00] you know, to remember you by, but that you think are important? WA: I don’t care what they remember me by. JJ: Anything that you think are important? WA: All I can tell you is that if you do things right all your life -- you’re gonna make mistakes here and there, but nothing that is critical. Mistakes can be remedied, and that’s no problem. But when you go into making mistakes that are astronomical, you know, I mean, it’s out of this world, then, well, you know... But if you think, especially young couples -- they get married and have kids, and then they’re father absentee or mother absentee, you know. You gotta be there for your kids always, no matter what. They’re never too old. You always gotta take care of your kids no matter what, and my bottom line is that. I don’t want my kids to take care of me. I wanna take care of them, you know. That’s the way it is. 57 �And educate because that’s the most important thing; [01:12:00] got to have an education. Doors open up when you’re educated. JJ: And what’s the most important -- what do you remember the most of Lincoln Park, the neighborhood? WA: The most I remember is the good times I had. It was great growing up in Lincoln Park, I’ll be honest with you. I had a good time playing ball, and people were nice. I cannot complain. People always say, you know, “If you’re nice, they’re nice.” I always smile for one reason: so I can give you a smile. When I give you a smile, I don’t care if I don’t even know the person. I always smile, and it’s, “Hi.” And then they’ll look at me, but they’ll smile, and that’s one thing I always take with me. I give you a smile, and I get a smile. (laughs) JJ: And no negative things -- WA: Nothing. JJ: -- about Lincoln Park? WA: Yeah, nothing. JJ: About Lincoln Park, the neighborhood. WA: No, that’s -- JJ: Nothing negative? WA: Nothing negative, nothing. JJ: All positive? Okay, thank you, I appreciate it. WA: No problem. JJ: Can I interview your [01:13:00] wife? WA: It’s up to her. 58 �MA: I’m not a very good -- END OF VIDEO FILE 59 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5dfbcb05bd063405a9660ad4f0ded5d3.mp4 65358f16d0a987ec69228e665e53c849 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Wilfredo Aviles vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Wilfredo Aviles, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 09/27/2018 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Aviles_Wilfredo Title A name given to the resource Wilfredo Aviles video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Aviles, Wilfredo Description An account of the resource Oral history of Wilfredo Aviles, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 09/27/2018 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Wilfredo Aviles was Born in Manati, Puerto Rico. He arrived in the US on July 1955 to Chicago, IL at Clark and Division Streets or La Clark Neighborhood. His Parents were Angelina Tirado Aviles & Sixto Aviles, and he has three siblings. He lived in old town/Lincoln Park for about 10 years, then moved to the Lake View area. His work experience included the U.S. Army, and retail in the family owned business, The Gaslight Men's Shop, and eventually became the owner (43 years). He retired in 2008. Wilfredo was also a civic leader. He was the first Latino President of Erie Family Health Center Board (2 years); Treasurer of the Puerto Rican Parade committee (5 years); Puerto Rican Chamber of Commerce- Treasurer (5 years); and the Chicago Avenue Business Association-President (5 years). He was a member of the Caballeros de San Juan. During his youth he belonged to one of the many sports clubs which often played baseball in Lincoln Park. A few times members of his group joined with other Puerto Rican youth to protect themselves from roving white ethnic gangs which had existed in Lincoln Park previous to Puerto Ricans arriving there. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-09-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c548eb9cbf7118dbdf21453d11531922.jpg 01f372b99dae23b02551cf80ded6224e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walter-PG_0030 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walter, P. G. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1948-06-04 Title A name given to the resource P.G. Walter First Grade promotion certificate Description An account of the resource Certificate of promotion to the first grade at Saugatuck Public Schools for P.G. Walter, 1948 Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Certificates Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by D. Brigham as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e95a15f371cec1f65ec259fe7f133ed.jpg a2c488c458f10116c1396b913ffd0e51 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walter-PG_0029 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walter, P. G. Title A name given to the resource Big Pavillion Ballroom Description An account of the resource Photograph of the interior of Big Pavilion, advertised as the largest dance floor East of the Mississippi River. In the photograph there are two men in a dome like room. A orchestra is in the distance. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Ballrooms Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by D. Brigham as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b57631c242ad1f5f757562c4b8f3142.jpg 9cac5b1b886920608936881c7c4b2032 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walter-PG_0028 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walter, P. G. Title A name given to the resource Fishtown and Lighthouse near Kalamazoo River Description An account of the resource Copy of a foldout photograph of a lighthouse and a few houses near the mouth of the Kalamazoo River. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Kalamazoo River (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by D. Brigham as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/550919f412fa117fa3c34601941d5675.jpg f643d144d684c1ee910027032884eb80 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walter-PG_0027 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walter, P. G. Title A name given to the resource Fold-out with historic Saugatuck, Michigan photographs Description An account of the resource Copy of a fold-out with three images: "Indians of the Area," "Famous Sand Dune, Mt. Baldhead," and "Singapore - the Buried City, 1863." Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by D. Brigham as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec5287c04c2d4a64bbd73e84030c063a.jpg ff17ec4be543457e8cac646f4d69fe11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walter-PG_0024 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walter, P. G. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974-03-12 Title A name given to the resource Florence Sewers American Legion Auxiliary membership card copy Description An account of the resource White and black copy of American Legion Auxiliary membership card of Florence Sewers issued in Saugatuck, Michigan. 1974 Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) American Legion Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by D. Brigham as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives