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                    <text>1

Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mrs. John Hodgen
Interviewed on October 4, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #29 (26:43)
Biographical Information
Ruth A. Grinnell was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 26 September 1890. She was married
to Dr. John T. Hodgen in Grand Rapids on 28 January 1921. Her husband, John was the son of
Harry A. Hodgen and Agnes H. Hart and he was born in 1884 at Rye Beach, Rockingham
County, New Hampshire. Ruth was Secretary-Treasurer of Grinnell-Row Company for 62 years.
Her death occurred 2 March 1978. Her husband preceded her in death in 1954.
Ruth Grinnell’s father was Charles L. Grinnell born in August 1857 in Grand Rapids. His death
occurred in July 1925. Her mother was Meena Baker, born in Canada about October 1860. Her
death occurred in September 1931. Ruth’s brother, Henry L. Grinnell died in Reed City in
October 1932.
The mother of Charles Grinnell was Henrietta Squier. He was grandson of John Wickliff Squier
who built the Squires Opera House that operated in Grand Rapids from 1859 until it burned in
1872.
___________

Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. John Hodgen was recorded on October fourth, nineteen
seventy-one….. (put this on the floor.) You were saying you were born in Grand Rapids.
Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, I was born in Grand Rapids and my father was born in Grand Rapids, Charles
Lawrence Grinnell. And my brother was born in Grand Rapids, Henry Lawrence Grinnell, Olive
Grinnell Merrell. And then my Grandfather [John W.] Squier built the first opera house in Grand
Rapids which was Squire’s Opera House down on Monroe and it turned into the Grand Opera
House finally. And that, I remember that, don’t you? Do you remember it?
Interviewer: No.
Mrs. Hodgen: Anyway, it was still in existence some years ago and then my Grandfather
Grinnell built the Grinnell Block and it was one of the first sprinklered buildings in Grand
Rapids, at the corner of Monroe and Crescent.
Interviewer: It was a sprinkler building?

�2

Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. It was sprinklered afterwards and it was one of the first sprinklered buildings
downtown, so they told me anyway.
Interviewer: What does that mean, sprinklered?
Mrs. Hodgen: Well, it was the sprinkler system all through the building and if it caught fire the
sprinklers worked. It was one of the first buildings in Grand Rapids and it was occupied by
Wurzburg’s store for a great many years. And then when Wurzburg’s moved on into the Fuller
Building which was built before they moved up on Monroe Street, let’s see here…Say Eloise, do
you remember who were the people that were in the Grinnell Block Building, a men’s, men’s
and boy’s store?
Eloise: I know who you mean but I can’t think of the name. Wasn’t it George Booth…wasn’t in
there was him on Monroe Street afterwards? Not the MBM? Afraid I couldn’t help you.
Mrs. Hodgen: Well, then that’s terrible, because they bought the building…. And they owned it
when it was torn down for the complex in there.
Interviewer: Was that on the east side of the street?
Mrs. Hodgen: It was on the corner of Monroe and Crescent, on the east side of the Monroe and
Crescent.
Interviewer: I don’t remember who that was either. But that’s, that’s not important exactly who
was there.
Mrs. Hodgen: Isn’t it?
Interviewer: No, that’s alright.
Mrs. Hodgen: Then the house on College Avenue was built, about eighty-two or three years ago.
And is still is in very good condition. But that’s apartments, two or three apartments in it, I think
now.
Interviewer: Whereabouts is that house?
Mrs. Hodgen: Forty-five North College, it’s in that Hill District there, between Fountain and
Fulton. That was the loveliest part of Grand Rapids that many years ago.
Interviewer: You grew up there as a child?
Mrs. Hodgen: Yes.
Interviewer: What was it, what was it like, growing up in that neighborhood?

�3

Mrs. Hodgen: Well, it was just perfect, I mean everybody knew everybody else and it was
beautiful houses all lovely houses in there and everybody went to Fountain Street School in those
days. All the people belonged to the Gamma Delta Tau Sorority in the high schools would walk
every Saturday night to Gamma Delta Tau Town meeting if you could believe it now. All the
girls walked alone to that meeting. And everybody was interested in what everybody else was
doing and it was perfectly delightful neighborhood to belong to. In fact, you knew everybody in
the block and the next block and the next block.
Interviewer: Was that a paved street then... College Avenue?
Mrs. Hodgen: It was paved ever since I can remember it. But I remember after school we all
used to, all used to catch bob-sleds first to home and take off our good clothes and put on old
clothes and catch and catch bob-sleds.
Interviewer: What were the bobs used?
Mrs. Hodgen: Well, they were delivery wagons on, on a delivery wagons that had runners, I
mean on bobs. We used to that was one of the things, and then I remember going out to the
Wilcox’s, the Wilcox’s lived across the street and all that property there which was their farm.
And…
Interviewer: The one on Lake Drive?
Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, on Lake Drive, that was their farm and then we used to go over to the end of
the street car line then walk out to their farm for Saturdays. It was a farm.
Interviewer: How far did their land, extend out there? How big of a farm was it?
Mrs. Hodgen: Oh, I don’t know. It was all the property that they have now out there. All, Mrs.
Wilcox gave the children their five houses out there now. And some of the Wilcox family, one of
the Wilcox family I think, there’s one of them still lives there on the property.
Interviewer: Who, which Wilcox is that, do you know off hand?
Mrs. Hodgen: Well her, name isn’t Wilcox, she’s Mrs. Perkins, Mrs. Voigt Perkins was a
Wilcox.
Interviewer: OK.
Mrs. Hodgen: She’s the only one that lives out there.
Interviewer: I think she’s, they use that old house, the little old cottage.
Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, she does.
Interviewer: When you’d go out to that farm on Saturdays what …?

�4

Mrs. Hodgen: Well, we used to ride the donkey and play on the way kids do on a farm.
Interviewer: Was Lake Drive there at that time? Was that a street?
Mrs. Hodgen: Well it was a street but we went, we went to the end of the car line and out there
then walked the rest of the way.
Interviewer: Where did that carline run? Did that, did that run along Wealthy Street?
Mrs. Hodgen: Well, I would say it ran along, yes, I think it ran up Wealthy. It went Cherry to
Wealthy.
Interviewer: Then you’d walk up….?
Mrs.Hodgen: Walk out from the end of the car-line. It went by, by the car barns there by that
time, the car barns is on Wealthy now, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Was, when you get off at Wealthy was, was that, did you get off where the Old
Kent Country Club was?
Mrs. Hodgen: No, that’s on Plymouth in and, that’s on Plymouth and Wealthy, isn’t it? No, to
tell you the truth I don’t know where, I don’t remember where we got off. You see I have a very,
I’m not. I can’t remember anyone’s name. That, and annoys me so not to think of that store that
everybody knows in town, if fact I’m not sure that’s still in business.
Interviewer: They are still in business somewhere else?
Mrs. Hodgen: Well they’re up on Monroe, up, Upper Monroe, for a long time. I don’t know.
Of course just as soon as you go, I’ll probably remember it.
Interviewer: Did you go to college?
Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, I went to, I graduated from high school and I went to Wellesley College. And
then I came back here and was treasurer and president of our organizations and I went back and
took a post-graduate course at Simmons and came to the office and I’ve been in the office fifty
seven years. Here at Grinnell….Company.
Interviewer: Who started the business, did you…?
Mrs. Hodgen: My grandfather. Henry Grinnell and my father was in it, Charles Grinnell and then
I came into it and then my brother had, Henry Grinnell came into it and he was killed in an
automobile accident when he was only 38 years old. I’ve been here every since. In fact we have
our hundredth anniversary in, in seventy-five.
Interviewer: It’s always been selling insurance?

�5

Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. It was Henry Grinnell and Son. It’ll be a hundred years old in seventy-five
it’s over ninety years old now.
Interviewer: Was your brother Henry older or younger than you?
Mrs. Hodgen: He was younger.
Interviewer: How long ago was that automobile accident that he was in?
Mrs. Hodgen: I can’t tell you… a great many years ago. The family are all, all married and that, I
don’t know whether you know [Henry’s daughter] Sally (Verney?) Do you know Sally
(Virney?) Priscilla Miller was his wife. (?) is now Priscilla Miller.
Interviewer: No, I don’t know them.
Mrs. Hodgen: And [Henry’s daughter] Mary Swain, do you know the Swain’s?
Interviewer: No.
Mrs. Hodgen: Well, Sally’s married now to Herb Boschoven who’s one of the vice-presidents of
the bank here. And Mary’s married to Bob Swain.
Interviewer: I know…
Mrs. Hodgen: Do you?
Interviewer:

Yes.

Mrs. Hodgen: My niece Sally Grinnell just married Herb Boschoven, a couple of weeks ago.
Interviewer: I think I saw something in the paper about that.
Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, they both were….
Interviewer: His daughter is Nancy?
Mrs. Hodgen: Nancy’s the one she, she is with the State Department over in Thailand now, I
think.
Interviewer: We went to the same high school together.
Mrs. Hodgen: Yes.
Interviewer: What was, what was insurance like when they first started the business? Did it
operate on the same principles that it operates today? Or was it….?

�6

Mrs. Hodgen: Everything, everything was done by hand, then there weren’t any machinery and
everybody I remember my father used to go down and deliver every policy. And it was just the
way change, everything has changed from a family affair to machines.
Interviewer: Who were some of the people that lived on your block?
Mrs. Hodgen: Well, the Steketee’s, we were surrounded by Steketee’s . The old original Steketee
there is Paul Steketee lived on the corner, around the corner, and Dan Steketee ,one of the sons
lived on the corner of College and Fountain and John Steketee lived two houses from that and
Paul Frederick lived next to us and Paul Steketee, senior lived on the other side of us around
the corner on the corner of, the house is still there, Fulton and Prospect, Peter Steketee lived. In
the next block the Putnam’s, Putnam house was a Lew[is] Withey house and the Waters, all the
Waters’ property was the next lot down. And the Cole house which Howard Sherman, Howard
Sherman still lives at the corner of Fulton and College is still, they still live there. The Waters’
house is torn down, the Putnam house is, and the Wilcox house, which is now the YWCA
building. In fact I, remember somebody coming and telling me that if you ever wanted to be in
Grand Rapids that you had to live in the property bounded by Union, Cherry, Lafayette and
(Union) Fountain. They were all in that little district. Everybody that you knew lived in there.
Interviewer: What was, what was that group considered? Were they considered the society of
the town?
Mrs. Hodgen: I would say so, they knew us…Yes.
Interviewer: Is there a society today, right now?
Mrs. Hogden: No.
Interviewer: Why do you think that is?
Mrs. Hodgen: Everything has changed, I mean all you have to do is to, of course in those days
when the, all you have to do is go out to clubs like the Kent Country Club and that you. In the
years when the country club was started Mr. J.C. Holt, Mr. J.C. Holt was probably a very
prominent person … he was considered very high brow at the time and they started, and my
father and other people to the country club. And you knew everybody out there. Now you go out
there and don’t know anybody. I mean it’s just different people have taken over the different
things, that’s all. There is no society like there was. The old timers, we often laugh about it,
reading the Sunday society news and don’t know a soul in it. Well, it’s just changed that’s all.
Everywhere.
Interviewer: What were, what, what were the characteristics of society in those days that might
not be characteristic of society today?
Mrs. Hodgen: Elegance.

�7

Interviewer: Can you tell me about that?
Mrs. Hodgen: No, I can’t tell you about it. I mean everybody, everybody had a party in their own
house you had everybody, everybody had loads of help and it was very dignified, very lovely and
all the young people if you weren’t there at seven o’clock, they sat down without you and you,
they used to the country club, if anybody, if anybody drank at the country club they wouldn’t be
invited again.
Interviewer: So there was very little liquor ever served at parties and stuff?
Mrs. Hodgen: Very, just none. I don’t ever remember any when I was young.
Interviewer: What was the most elegant party you ever went to?
Mrs. Hodgen: Well, everybody used to have at Christmas time when they came home for
vacation, everybody had a party. The Bissell’s always had a terribly beautiful party. And Mrs.
Lowe always had a beautiful party. Those were the two I remember. Perfectly beautiful ones in
Mrs. Lowe’s house which is now Aquinas College. That was their house and they lived there.
Interviewer: Can you describe the parties to me, can you describe how they were, how they went.
Mrs. Hodgen: I don’t remember one thing now, I haven’t any idea.
Interviewer: What did people wear? What kind of outfits?
Mrs. Hodgen: Very beautiful and very beautifully made. Everybody had a home dressmaker or a
dressmaker. And they were very, very elegant, beautiful material and elegant.
Interviewer: What about the men? What did they wear?
Mrs. Hodgen: Tuxedos, I think they wore tuxedos. But I suppose different than they are now I
don’t know, I don’t see them anymore.
Interviewer: Were these, were these parties dinner parties or were they dances?
Mrs. Hodgen: Dinner parties. Dinner and dance, yes.
Interviewer: How many people would attend a dinner like that?
Mrs. Hodgen: fifty or a hundred I don’t know one-hundred in the house, fifty at least. I mean all
the young people, I mean there were younger, there were Bissell’s children and another thing
that they did now is call. You properly, you weren’t invited again if you didn’t make a party call
on anybody. You went around and had calling cards and made a party call on everybody or you
weren’t invited to the next party.
Interviewer: What’s a party call?

�8

Mrs. Hodgen: Just going and thanking them for the party and making, make a calling on people.
I mean they called them party calls then.
Interviewer: If you were going to a party out at the Lowe’s, which was, I imagine out in the
country then wasn’t it?
Mrs. Hodgen: That’s where Aquinas College is, that was their house. The main part of the
college that they used for the main building was the whole house. All that property the Aquinas
owns now was the Lowe, was the Lowe property. Beautiful gardens and very elegant I mean.
There was a great deal of help. Everybody had a great deal of help. There wasn’t anybody
without help. You entertained in your house. Everybody entertained at home. In the, I guess the
Saint Cecilia was in existence then, that was a very prominent place. And there was a German
Club, which my mother was the president of all its existence which was a very, very interesting
organization; and there was a French Club; the Ladies Literary Club; Women’s University Club
which was started under Mrs. Clay Hollister’s who was one of the very prominent people in
town. Somebody who can remember much about her, she was a great friend of Mrs. [Charles]
Bender’s mother. The [Willard F.] Keeney’s were very prominent people. All the pop, all the
people that were prominent then were, there were very few of them in existence even now. There
aren’t any of the Lowe family here. John J. Blodgett is the only one of the Blodgett family here.
There aren’t any of the Lew Withey family, well, one , maybe the younger Withey I don’t know
where he comes in somewhere. Very few of the old families are left.
Interviewer: What happens to families….?
Mrs. Hodgen: What happens to what?
Interviewer: What happens to families like that that are very prominent and have a lot of money
and then suddenly they disappear?
Mrs. Hodgen: Well, I think most of the Withey’s have died off. Most of the Waters family, I
mean Tom Waters just died, the Waters family, they were, they were very well known in town,
and had their estate there, used to be called an estate there on the corner of College and Fulton.
Oakhurst, they call it, and the Barnhart family. There are few, there’s Helen Barnhart ,…. Only
few of those left. Oh, I don’t, I don’t know if there are very many of them left. That’s all.
Interviewer: Who was Edmond Lowe?
Mrs. Hodgen: Who was what?
Interviewer: Who was Edmond Lowe
Mrs. Hodgen: Edward Lowe?
Interviewer: Edward Lowe?

�9

Mrs. Hodgen : Edward Lowe was the one that was, who was, he gave Butterworth Hospital or
Butterworth or Edward and Susan Blodgett Lowe I mean. Edward Lowe, I think, I don’t know
what, I don’t know what business he was in but he was married to Sue, Mrs. Blodgett, Susan
Blodgett was the listed as the foundation of Butterworth Hospital, Edward and Susan Lowe
Foundation or foundations for at Butterworth Hospital. And I don’t know anything about the
Butterworth’s, but the Butterworth’s were very prominent people a long time ago. One of them
gave Butterworth Hospital. Of course, the Blodgett family were a very, very prominent family
that gave Blodgett Hospital.
Interviewer: They, they actually just gave the hospital, and they built it themselves.
Mrs. Hodgen: To start with, yes. Blodgett Hospital was given, or Butterworth was given by the
Butterworth family to start with and Blodgett Hospital was given by the Blodgett family to start
with, that’s, the reason they’re named after them. Of course, a great many people have
contributed a great deal since. What they gave then would be just be a minor amount of what it
takes to run a hospital now but they were the ones who started the hospitals. Oh, I don’t know,
I’m not fair, there’s so many more, there were so many prominent people, well, well known
people in town. But, like all older people, you forget everything.
Interviewer: Why, why did you day that J.C. Holt was the high brow?
Mrs. Hodgen: ‘Cause he was. Everybody knows….
Interviewer: What, what does that mean exactly?
Mrs. Hodgen: Very exclusive. They lived on Lafayette Street and, and anybody he didn’t want in
the Kent County Country Club, he would keep out. He wouldn’t let belong to the Kent Country.
Interviewer: How could he do that?
Mrs. Hodgen: Because he was boss, that’s why. I don’t know how he did it but he did. That was
the reputation everybody had from him. You ask any of the old people, older people who, knew
the Holt family and all and they know that’s the reputation he had all over town.
Interviewer: Are they still here?
Mrs. Hodgen: No, there isn’t a single one of the family left. Tom Holt, John Holt, .Bill Holt,
Kate Holt and Harry Holt, all those families have all, they all, none of them in Grand Rapids
anymore. The [W. O.] Hughart family was another prominent family, they don’t live in, there’s
none of the Hughart’s live in town anymore. They owned the house at the corner of Fulton and
Lafayette there where the insurance building is now. Mr. [John S.] Lawrence lived across the
street from there. He was a very well known person in town. He used to have Sunday afternoon
readings, use to read to people on every Sunday afternoon.
Interviewer: Used to what?

�10

Mrs. Hodgen: Used to have a read, read good books to people Sunday afternoons. Sunday
Afternoon Reading Club, I guess you’d call it. Sunday afternoons. And then the Howard
O’Brien’s lived across the street, I mean out there on Lafayette Street. And he was the
Ambassador to Japan. Not the Howard O’Briens, what was his name? His [Thomas J. O’Brien’s]
son was Howard O’Brien. Then the [Charles S.] Hazeltine’s and, some of that that family are
still here. Karl Montgelas?
The Hazeltine’s were very prominent people. They live on, big house on John Street. Hazeltine
and Perkins Drug Company. I can tell you families that were prominent in those days but I can’t
tell you much about them. Fanny Hazeltine was the one who married Count [Adolph] von
Montgelas when she was visiting Mr. O’Brien who was the ambassador to Japan, to Japan.
Interviewer: Count Montgelas? He was a count?
Mrs. Hodgen: He was. Do you know who Karl Montgelas is in town? Karl Montgelas is their
son.
Interviewer: Who?
Mrs. Hodgen: Karl Montgelas.
Interviewer: Is whose son?
Mrs. Hodgen: Mrs. Fanny Hazeltine and Count Montgelas.
more than I did, she’s younger than I am.

Jo? [Josephine Bender] remembers

Interviewer: Well, everybody has like different reminisces and remembers different kinds of
things and a lot of things that she remembered are different things than you might remember.
Mrs. Hodgen: Oh really?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs.Hodgen: Well she was younger, she was a bit younger than I am. I think she was nearer my,
my brothers age. She was between us, I guess, my brother was four years younger than I. She
was just between us. She went to Vassar and I went to Wellesley. We were the same vintage;
we’d all go to the same parties and everything together.
Interviewer: Why did most of the girls here go up to Eastern schools that went to college?
Mrs. Hodgen: That was the thing to do. Nobody went to Michigan. Michigan was looked down
on in my day and age; I didn’t know anybody who went to the University of Michigan. That was,
Vassar was very prominent, I was there only, Miss Mary Hefferan of the [Thomas W.] Hefferan
family here were very prominent people in town. Mr. Hefferan was the president of the bank.
Both Hefferan’s were presidents of the bank. And Miss Mary Herfferan was the first person from

�11

Grand Rapids who ever went to Wellesley. I think and I was about the second person. Nobody
went to Wellesley in those days it was considered high, too high brow. Everybody went to
Vassar, in fact Grand Rapids is a great, great Vassar community.
Interviewer: Why was it considered high brow?
Mrs. Hodgen: Oh, it was considered too hard. I mean it was considered too difficult, I mean it
was, well they used the word greasy-grind. I think that everybody that went to Wellesley was
greasy, a greasy-grind.
Interviewer: Well.
Mrs. Hodgen: Well, that’s all I know. I don’t know what good that does you.
INDEX

Aquinas College · 7, 8

Hefferan Family · 11
Hollister, Mrs. Clay · 8
Holt, J.C. · 7, 10
Hughart Family · 10

B

K

Barnhart Family · 9
Bender, Josephine · 8, 11
Bissell Family · 7, 8
Blodgett Family · 8, 9
Blodgett, John J. · 9
Boschoven, Herb and Sally · 5

Kent Country Club · 4, 6

A

L
Ladies Literary Club · 8
Lowe, Edmond · 9
Lowe, Mrs. · 7, 8

F
Fountain Street School · 3
Frederick, Paul · 6

M
Montgelas Family · 10, 11

G
Gamma Delta Tau Sorority · 3
German Club · 8
Grinnell, Charles Lawrence (Father) · 1, 4, 6, 7
Grinnell, Henry (Grandfather) · 4, 5
Grinnell, Henry Lawrence (Brother) · 1, 4, 5, 11

H
Hazeltine Family · 10, 11

P
Perkins, Mrs. Voigt · 3, 10

S
Saint Cecilia Music Society · 8
Sherman, Howard · 6
Squier, John W. (Grandfather) · 1
Squier’s Opera House · 1

�12
Steketee Family · 6

W

U

Waters Family · 6, 9
Wellesley College · 4, 11, 12
Wilcox Family · 3, 6
Withey Family · 6, 8, 9

University of Michigan · 11

V
Vassar College · 11

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                <text>1971</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Vietnam War
Jim Hodges

Interview Length: (01:32:58:00)
Preenlistment / Training (00:00:11:00)
 Born in Houston, Texas in 1951 (00:00:11:00)
 Dad was a radio/television repairman and owned his own business for 26 years and his mother
helped his father with the business (00:00:17:00)
 His family stayed in Houston, although he was pretty active himself and he stayed in the
outlying communities and worked on the ranches, training horses and working cattle
(00:00:31:00)
 Graduated high school and thought about college (00:00:50:00)
o Across the street from his house lived a Dr. Derm, a well-known doctor in Houston, who
offered to pay Hodges to go to medical school (00:00:59:00)
o All of his sisters were already nurses (00:01:09:00)
 His vocation always seemed to be on the soldier side and he decided to join the Army and make
it a career (00:01:30:00)
 Enlisted in July, 1970 (00:01:40:00)
o Assumed that he would be going over to Vietnam and although Hodges was a sole
surviving son and did not have to go to Vietnam, he went anyway (00:01:50:00)
 Grew up with not only the Vietnam War, but also the Cold War and every day in school, they
had air raid drills, hid under their desks and were afraid of nuclear destruction (00:02:07:00)
o Learned that you do not mess with bullies; when a bully raised his head, you better hit
him and hit him hard and he saw a bully beating up on Vietnam (00:02:30:00)
o His enlistment was the talk of the family (00:02:45:00)
 Dad had served in both World War II and Korea, which gave Hodges a different
spin on the story of the wars (00:02:47:00)
o If you were going to be a soldier, you better do something and if there was a fight, you
had better get in it (00:02:55:00)
 Purpose was to help the Vietnamese people secure freedom, and being a cowboy, he knew what
freedom was, better than anybody else (00:03:03:00)
o Could not stand the sight of Vietnamese people on the television being bullied by a
government (00:03:21:00)
o Always been about people; could care less about governments because they come and go
(00:03:30:00)
 Father told him that he knew Hodges would enlist and he was not going to discourage him, but if
Hodges enlisted, he had better be the best there ever was (00:03:46:00)
 First stop in training was Fort Polk, Louisiana, where he did his basic training at the “North
Fort”, where everyone knew where they were going (00:04:02:00)
 Most of the soldiers were enlistees; they had a handful of draftees (00:04:18:00)
o Rumors he heard when he got back from the war was that all the soldiers were drafted
and used as cannon fodder, which was not true (00:04:27:00)
 Some of the volunteers did very well, including being helicopter pilots (00:04:54:00)
o Back then, being a helicopter pilot was good stuff because there was a good market for
aviation jobs following a pilot’s enlistment (00:05:01:00)

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Some of the soldiers went into specialized fields that eventually helped them with business
(00:05:11:00)
o A friend of Hodges got his JD and worked as an attorney in the Army, even though he
had never though about doing that; he enlisted because he had a low draft number and
after a couple a years, someone influenced him towards the law (00:05:18:00)
Some men enlisted and eventually realized that they were not what were needed to be a soldier
(00:05:48:00)
Did eight weeks of basic training (00:06:02:00)
o At Fort Polk, they had North Fort and South Fort, which were separated by about 15 or
20 miles (00:06:06:00)
o Infantry walked everyday with full pack and rifle in 114 degrees, 100% humidity,
chewing 15 to 20 salt tablets a day (00:06:12:00)
o Joked that if they were eating C-Rations and they wanted salt on their food, they just
dusted of their normally green uniform, which was white from the salt (00:06:27:00)
o Did the marching to get in shape for where they were going (00:06:39:00)
Did PT everyday (00:06:45:00)
Separated the men from the boys starting on the very first day (00:06:52:00)
o Got called every name in the book (00:06:56:00)
o Was rough and strict because they were at war (00:06:58:00)
Did something that he noticed that the Army recently dropped (00:07:05:00)
o Part of their focus was bayonet training, which not only taught them how to fight with
the bayonet but also instilled a spirit that they do not quit or lay down; if their arm was
blown off, they fight with the other one and they do not stop or fall (00:07:08:00)
o Sorry to see the Army give the training up because it is an integral part of the spirit of a
warrior; it has nothing to do with bayonets, it has to do with an idealism of what they
were going to do and how to save their life and those around them (00:07:26:00)
Broke down weapons; took them apart and put them back together (00:07:44:00)
o Learned every light weapon in the military services, from the .45 pistol to the 106mm
recoilless rifle (00:07:48:00)
o Went to the firing range everyday and fired mostly the M16 and M60 machine gun
(00:07:58:00)
Had quite a bit of stuff to learn, including the Military Code of Justice (all the paperwork side of
the military) (00:08:06:00)
Marched in formation and learned all the cadence calls (00:08:16:00)
If they were lucky, they got 15 minutes in the mess hall; if there was a long line, then they were
out of luck (00:08:29:00)
o Learned very quickly that they could do without a meal and not die, but they had to take
care of themselves, including how to conserve water and do all the things that survival
entailed (00:08:37:00)
All of his drill instructors had been in Vietnam, so they knew what the trainees could expect
once they got to Vietnam (00:08:58:00)
Vietnam was far worse than the training; they could take somebody there, put them through
what ever they could design and call it “hell” and they would not know what “hell” was until
they got to Vietnam (00:09:07:00)
All of the drill sergeants were well-seasoned, had been in the Army for years and were not only
Vietnam veterans, but they were also combat veterans hand-picked by the brigade commander
for outstanding service (00:09:20:00)
After basic training, he split off and went to leadership preparation school at Fort Polk
(00:09:47:00)

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o Went through eight more weeks of AIT (Advanced Individual Training) in infantry and
when he got out of AIT, he was a Specialist 4th Class, light weapons specialist
(00:09:57:00)
Left Fort Polk and went to Fort Benning, Georgia, where he went to NCO school, which was an
intense course (00:10:08:00)
Halfway through the NCO course, he got in contact with a previous mentor who helped Hodges
decide where he was going and who was a contract operator through the intelligence community
(00:10:22:00)
o They took a group of soldiers that they had been watching through training, the first
group that Hodges had heard of, and cross-trained them at Ranger School at Fort
Benning and at the Special Forces Camp at Fort Bragg, North Carolina (00:10:37:00)
Finished the NCO course and graduated as a sergeant E-5 (00:10:52:00)
o Told by the mentor and his group at the end of the course that at some point they might
be called do some other type of mission and the group wanted to be sure that there were
people already trained and ready in reserve so that when the mission came up, the
soldiers had the special skills (00:10:57:00)
o The mountains in northern Georgia seemed like the perfect place for the training and
they practiced repelling and orienteering, among other things (00:11:15:00)
 Went to the jump school and the other parts of special forces training, including
a remarkable unit in hand to hand combat and bayonet fighting (00:11:25:00)
 Proudest day of his life involved a drill sergeant named Rosas, the
toughest guy Hodges ever met, who although small, was solid and was a
bayonet fighter (00:11:40:00)
 Hodges wanted to be like him, listened to him intently and they took the
sheathed bayonets and covered them with shoe polish to simulate a cut
(00:12:03:00)
 Hodges got good at it and they day they left, Rosas stood in front of him
and instead of saluting, put his hand on Hodge’s shoulder and said,
“bayonet fighter”, which was the greatest award Hodges ever got
(00:12:19:00)
o The confidence course and orienteering course were the most difficult parts of training
because in some cases, it was raining or the weather was bad (00:13:03:00)
o Hodges had trouble with things that were high up because of a fear of heights and they
would race to the top of the structure because if they were the last, then they would have
to do the assignment again (00:13:18:00)
Another difficult part was at Fort Polk going on the forced marches at night because the dried
salt on their uniforms from the die acted like sandpaper, rubbing the skin raw (00:13:37:00)
o The sand in North Fort was so deep that they would sink almost to their waste and if
they lost sight of the other soldiers, then they were lost (00:14:04:00)
A final difficult part was an infiltration course when they had to crawl under barbed wire while
live rounds were shot over their heads from a mounted M60 (00:14:36:00)
o The trainees did not know the fire could not hit them, which looked like strings of red
kool-aid from the tracer rounds and things were blowing up everywhere from grenade
simulators (00:15:00:00)
o The course at Fort Benning was an eye-opener and prelude to the what Hodges would be
getting involved in because one of the trainees panicked, crawled out of the main part of
the wire and when one of the grenade simulator blew, it got him (00:15:16:00)

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Hodges ran over, grabbed the man, ran back and began performing first aid on
the man, which was the first indication not only to himself, but those watching
him, the Hodges was the man they wanted to do other things (00:15:39:00)
Command was in a hurry to get Hodges to Vietnam because they had invested a large amount of
time and money into him and they wanted a return on their investment (00:16:21:00)
From his specialized training, he went back to Fort Polk and was a drill sergeant assigned to the
5th AIT training brigade (00:16:30:00)
o Was there only on a temporary duty status, meaning that he was not a “true” drill
sergeant, although he still did the job (00:16:40:00)
o Was only there for five or ten days when, while at the machine gun range, a sergeant told
him to report back and the company commander told him the levee came down and
Hodges name was on it (00:16:47:00)
Left Fort Polk for Houston, saw his parents and girlfriend, then head to Oakland and shipped out
to Vietnam (00:16:59:00)

Deployment (00:17:18:00)
 They flew from Oakland to Vietnam via Alaska, Japan, and Saigon on a commercial airline
(00:17:18:00)
o The flight was long and nobody knew anybody, so they just sat there (00:17:49:00)
 The very first time they flew in, they had to circle the runway because the enemy was mortaring
the airfield (00:18:15:00)
o Hodges looked out his window and saw a cratered surface below and all his expectations
of high promotion went out the window (00:18:20:00)
o Thought about what he had gotten himself into and how the hell he was going to get out
of it (00:18:32:00)
o When they landed, it was chaos; people were wounded, smoke and gunpowder in the air
and the landing was rotten and everybody was scared to death coming of the plane
(00:18:38:00)
 They took the men immediately to a reception area where they did a quick physical, including
pulling a group off to the side and giving them fluoride treatments for their teeth (00:18:58:00)
o Gave them their jungle fatigues, helmets, and everything but anything to shoot with
(00:19:22:00)
 From the reception area, they took Hodges and six or seven other guys over to another airfield,
where they were put on a C-130 and flown to Da Nang and from Da Nang, they flew by Huey
helicopter to Hue (00:19:47:00)
 From Hue, they split the group up and assigned them to different units, along with issuing them
weapons, ammunition, and grenades, as well a C-Rations (00:20:31:00)
o Being new in country, Hodges disregarded his training and loaded up with more food
than water or ammo, which came back to haunt him a couple of days later (00:20:45:00)
 They put Hodges into a jeep and he and the jeep driver left the camp in Hue and drove out into
the countryside (00:21:01:00)
o Ahead, he saw a hill ahead of him that looked like it had eroded off and he could see the
cannons on the top of it; this was Firebase Birmingham (00:21:14:00)
 They dropped him off at Firebase Birmingham and although Hodges looked around for someone
to talk to, no one wanted to talk to him because he was the new guy; there was not a great deal
of respect for the new guys because the respect had to be earned (00:21:23:00)
 Eventually helicopters started coming in and on the first helicopter that came in, the soldiers
motioned for Hodges, who ran over, and the soldiers pulled him in (00:21:40:00)
 The helicopter took off without touching down (00:22:04:00)

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o Hodges, trying to figure out what was going on, yelled at the man next to him, but no
one said anything and the next thing that Hodges knew, they were landing out in the
middle of the jungle (00:22:10:00)
When they came into the LZ, they knew that Hodges was a new guy, so the others grabbed him
and threw him out of the helicopter (00:22:30:00)
o He did not expect to be thrown out and he went out of the helicopter not very gracefully
and in the process, lost his weapon (00:22:39:00)
o The others hit the ground and everyone was shooting, so Hodges jumped up and after
figuring if he had the barrel fixed the right way, tried to figure who was out in the jungle
(00:22:46:00)
Someone would yell at him but he could not hear them because the helicopters would have the
door-gunners firing, along with the other soldiers (00:22:58:00)
o Hodges did not fire immediately but he decided he ought to, unless everyone else think
he was a chicken, but afraid to hit someone friendly, he waited and then fired where
everyone else was firing (00:23:10:00)
o Eventually, everyone else gradually quit firing and the other soldiers rolled onto their
rucksacks and some either got out their pipes or rolled cigarettes (00:23:26:00)
Hodges tried to see who was in charge and he realized that he was a sergeant and maybe they
were expecting him to do something (00:23:53:00)
o He was sitting there and asked where the men had come from but nobody answered and
they ignored him (00:24:13:00)
Later, they stood up, rucked-up and everyone else started walking (00:24:25:00)
o Hodges watched as several men started walking and noticing a man with a radio on his
back, walked up and asked if the radio operator was in charge, who told him to get back
in the ranks and shut up (00:24:34:00)
They walked and walked and finally, they stopped and someone told Hodges to eat
(00:25:09:00)
o Hodges thanked him and told the man that he was just trying to figure out what he was
supposed to do; the other man said to start by staying alive (00:25:34:00)
o Learned very quickly that he had to do it on his own (00:25:42:00)
Hodges finally got it and that night, it rained and was freezing and the next day, the radio
operator told Hodges to walk slack, the position directly behind the point man (00:26:01:00)
o Hodges was to do everything the point man did, when he did it, and not to talk; if he
talked, the radio operator would shoot him himself (00:26:19:00)
The man giving Hodges directions turned out to be another sergeant, the squad leader
(00:27:06:00)
o Nickname was “Dutch” and he was only there a few months because he was short time
and getting ready to go home (00:27:12:00)
o Hodges discovered that both he and Dutch were from Texas (00:27:21:00)
After about the third day, they had a little contact outside of Firebase Birmingham (00:27:34:00)
o They were setting up ambush patrols around Birmingham to keep the fire base from
getting hit (00:27:40:00)
o The patrol found some rocket tubes and Dutch thought that the enemy would come back
and arm them, so they set claymores on the tubes and bobby-trapped them (00:27:47:00)
o Hodges helped set up the booby-traps, which he was good at; the special forces training
helped and when Hodges showed the others how to set up a good trap, it endeared him to
the other men (00:28:07:00)
Dutch told him after a few days that he was short timed and when he left, Hodges would be the
one taking over (00:28:34:00)

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o But he told Hodges not to think that he could ever get away with telling any of the other
soldiers what to do because they will kill him (00:28:42:00)
o Each man stays alive because each man does his job and they did not tolerate mistakes
because mistakes mean somebody dies and Hodges had better not be the one who makes
mistakes (00:28:52:00)
o He watched Dutch and learned how to call artillery and air strikes (00:29:10:00)
Learned from the first day that the men were not only hardcore, but they were like machines;
everybody did exactly what their job was and there were no mistakes (00:29:34:00)
They always worked in squads and the only time they worked as a company was during a
Chinook helicopter crash when they went to it on Thanksgiving, 1971 (00:30:01:00)
o Served as part of Delta Company, 2nd Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne
Division (00:30:19:00)
o Was part of 2nd platoon and he went from 2nd to 4th squad leader because they changed
around a lot due to men getting injured (00:30:27:00)
o Sometimes they combined squads and had a squad leader run both squads (00:30:44:00)
 Squad size ranged from seven men to four men, depending on the combat
strength at the time (00:30:47:00)
Stayed around Firebase Birmingham for about a week, although a week there is like seventy
years in civilian life (00:31:01:00)
Focused on an azimuth drawn straight from Hue west into the A Shau valley (00:31:12:00)
Earned the nickname “the King of the North” because he knew the country better than anybody
(00:31:34:00)
o Most people did not study terrain maps, but going back to his cowboy days, he already
had a good foundation for reading maps and the land (00:31:42:00)
o Knowing, more than knowing what they had to do, where they were at and where they
were going and how to get out if needs be (00:32:16:00)
o These where his three keys, which he drilled into his guys, something that upset the
other soldiers (00:32:27:00)
One of Hodges's mentors, other than his father, was General Patton (00:32:49:00)
o Liked not only Patton’s hands on methodology but the fact that he was not afraid to lead
and let everybody know that they need to put effort behind the preparation if they
wanted to complete the mission (00:32:53:00)
o Hodges instilled this ideal into his men which they did not have at the time; the soldiers
lived in existence mode, stumbling around from day to day (00:33:11:00)
o Goal was to not only live through the war but to accomplish their missions each and
every time, just they way they had been laid out (00:33:28:00)
Looking back, Hodges’ mentality distracted the men enough from the sheer terror and inspired
them to set goals in their mind (00:33:41:00)
Was with this group of soldiers only to get his feet wet and he was eventually pulled out for his
special-ops missions between January and March (00:34:08:00)

Special-Ops Missions (00:34:46:00)
 Someone came out and flew Hodges back to Firebase Birmingham, then on to Da Nang for
another briefing (00:34:46:00)
o Briefing was in a room full of guys who were not in uniform and were not military
(00:35:12:00)
 The man who had originally mentored him was there and he said that this was where Hodges
would see what he was really made out of (00:35:34:00)

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o Nixon was trying to pull the troops out but they were afraid of the possibility of another
Tet offensive like the one in 1968 which would damage the credibility of the Americans
and of Nixon (00:35:45:00)
o Their job was to be inserted into Laos disrupt supply lines and give the enemy “hell”
(00:36:05:00)
o They did not want American troops involved, so the teams were dressed in Viet Cong
outfits and used Viet Cong weapons (00:36:38:00)
They had intelligence about specific unit movements and gave the team the coordinates and
where they would be inserted into, where they would have to hump to immediately, and what
they were going to do (00:37:03:00)
o The rendezvous point was the key because they did not have a radio and if they missed
the specific day and time, then they were left over there (00:37:20:00)
o Everybody in his unit look the same; nobody over 5’8”, everyone had black hair and
dark features (00:37:36:00)
o They did not have any dog tags and if the enemy somehow identified he or his team as
Americans, his commanders could say that they were selling drugs and they had been
looking for the team (00:37:53:00)
Did the special missions for a few weeks and came out; the missions did do their job
(00:38:13:00)
o They would follow an enemy unit, which was in larger groups because in Laos, they did
not expect to encounter a formidable opponent (00:38:30:00)
o Because of their mass numbers, it lulled them into a false sense of security
(00:38:43:00)
o They used elephants, mules, big trucks, and tanks in some cases (00:38:48:00)
Hodges’ team would follow a unit for several days, see who they were and mark their
vulnerabilities (00:38:57:00)
o I.e. If the enemy had a couple elephants with a lot of equipment on them, the team could
plant a pound C4 on each of the elephants (00:39:05:00)
o In the morning was when they usually hit the enemy because that was when everyone
was getting up and packing everything and their minds were not alert (00:39:15:00)
The team mapped out directions if they saw movement in a particular direction and they would
sneak in at night and set up a horseshoe ambush for the column (00:39:33:00)
o They would have claymores around the road and two men at the rear with M60 machine
guns, two men at the front with M203s and one man at the point with an M203 and if
they had AKs, then they did the same thing (00:40:01:00)
o Hodges always took the point (00:40:21:00)
o They would set the detonators for self-detonation and each team member had one
detonator (00:40:25:00)
o By the time that the enemy got a hint, the M60s were the only things firing while the
other three members of the team had run in separate directions so that if the enemy
caught one, they only lost one team member versus losing the whole team (00:40:34:00)
Everyone knew how to orienteer to get back to the rendezvous point and if someone made it to
the rendezvous point, fine, if not, then they moved on (00:40:56:00)
With a lot of the elephants, if they either laid on the ground at night or slept standing up, the
team were able to walk up and hide the C4 in the straps of the pack used to haul the equipment
(00:41:10:00)
They would run the detonator out, which they could set to time-detonate, allowing the team to
play “tricks” on the enemy (00:41:32:00)

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o One trick involved unscrewing the delay fuse on a hand grenade, putting a smoke
grenade fuse in and spray painting it green to make it appear to only be a standard
grenade (00:41:41:00)
 When someone pulled the pin and released the spoon, the grenade exploded
because there was no time delay and the team would lay a few of the special
grenades around (00:41:59:00)
o Another trick involved syncing the pin up to the elephant’s saddle straps and when the
saddle was tightened, the grenade exploded (00:42:12:00)
Darkness in the jungle varied in degrees and the team’s old saying was “everyone dies on a full
moon” (00:42:39:00)
o Hodges and his team had the same size and build as the enemy, so the elephants paid
them little attention (00:42:51:00)
The enemy was very laid back; they played music, sang, had campfires going and were cooking
food (00:43:00:00)
o Some units moved very quickly and expediently and they ate on the move and other
units, especially ones with high ranking officers or important supplies, would cook
elaborate meals (00:43:09:00)

Seventy-Two Days Alone (00:43:45:00)
 Hodges and his team ran about ten of these ambushes and on the last mission, Hodges made it to
the rendezvous point and no one else did (00:43:45:00)
 He waited about two days and nobody came for him; he realized that no one was coming for him
and he needed to take off because the enemy was all around him (00:44:03:00)
 Decided to orienteer, which was not hard because, being due west of Hue, all he did was turn
due east and start to head back (00:44:16:00)
 He made it seventy-two days by himself and got back to a road, QL-9, and the Army had
brought up some artillery and ARVNs to support to border with Laos, who Hodges saw while he
was walking (00:44:24:00)
 He got excited when he saw the ARVNs and originally he was going to run over and ask them to
get him out of there but he caught himself because he did not have a shirt left and he was in the
black pajama pants with his NVA boots on and no dog tags (00:44:47:00)
o He had blood over every square inch of his body and he was pretty filthy, with a long
beard and long hair (00:45:03:00)
 He was afraid that the ARVNs would shoot him even if he yelled out to them because he was in
a free fire zone, meaning that the others shot anything that moved (00:45:11:00)
 Finally, he figured that if he was going to get out of there, he was going to have to do something,
so he followed the units for a little bit and saw some of the soldiers seemed jovial (00:45:21:00)
 While they were taking a break, he went up to the ARVN unit first and walked up with his hands
held high, saying that he was an American, and singing Yankee Doodle (00:45:38:00)
 The ploy worked, although Hodges scared the ARVN soldiers and he was afraid that they were
going to shoot him, they did not and finally relaxed before asking Hodges some questions,
which he answered (00:46:06:00)
 When the ARVNs finally took him in and gave him something to eat, they told Hodges that they
had some trucks going back, so he stayed with the unit for one day before getting a ride on a
deuce-and-a-half truck back to his base (00:46:20:00)
o The truck got out onto another road and there was a large convoy of tank trucks, which
Hodges hitched a ride on the back of one (00:46:34:00)
o At the time, he had an M1903 Springfield with a Starlight 4x scope as his weapon and
this was all he had left from the mission (00:46:48:00)

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When he got back to camp and the guards saw him on the back of the truck, they all “jumped
to”; an MP ran back into his guard shack, grabbed his M16 and told Hodges to get off the truck
(00:46:59:00)
Hodges did and he tried to talk to the MP, who said that he was going to call one man and
Hodges told the MP to call his commander, a colonel, and tell the colonel that Hodges was there
and he wanted to know why he was left (00:47:15:00)
o Hodges was mad, so the MP called the colonel, came back out and said that although he
did not know who Hodges was, the men on the phone said they would be there
(00:47:32:00)
When the MPs came up, it was comical because they looked like Keystone Kops, white faced
and weapons waving as they drove up (00:47:43:00)
o They ordered Hodges to drop his weapon but he told them that he was not going to do
that, making a tense moment because Hodges was mad and he might have killed them
(00:47:54:00)
o Hodges and the MPs had a little standoff before they finally took him to see the colonel,
where he was told to shut up, sign an agreement, and that he did his job (00:48:15:00)
They transferred him out of the base that day, reoutfitted him with a new uniform, rucksack, and
M16, and flew him out to Da Nang, where he was assigned to the 196th Infantry Brigade
(00:48:30:00)
The seventy-two days of survival involved a lot of walking and a lot of mountain climbing
(00:49:04:00)
o One blessing was that up in the mountains, the water was crystal clear and he could
drink right out of the streams; as well, there were large amounts of fish in the streams
(00:49:08:00)
o He would describe it as almost prehistoric because there were parts that people had
never been in (00:49:20:00)
o Hodges ate fish raw out of the streams, which is why he does not eat fish now, and he
had to eat them like an animal would eat them, meaning through the scales and
uncooked (00:49:29:00)
o If he threw the fish down and the NVA found it, they would be able to track him and he
did not have time to cover his tracks (00:49:42:00)
 He was wearing NVA boots, so he was not worried about that, but if they saw
the fish carcasses, they would know that there was a SOG group working in the
area, who the NVA knew very well (00:49:51:00)
o He survived off eating that fish, although there were times that all he had was sand, so he
drank sand, just to keep something in his stomach and to keep going (00:50:04:00)
o He would hide from the NVA during the daytime and would move a lot a night, at least
when he could see at night (00:50:16:00)
o Was very careful that the areas he went into were not marked areas, did not follow trails,
and cut his own way with a machete he carried (00:50:27:00)
 Still, he did not try to cut a lot of trail, instead he tried to slip through the jungle,
so that if anyone was following him, it would slow them down and make it hard
to catch him (00:50:42:00)
o Getting angry helped, as well a being determined never to give up and lay down and to
get the mission done, no matter what (00:50:56:00)
While alone, he had someone step on his hand and trip over him in the middle of the night
(00:51:09:00)

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o The bad part was that he was bleeding from shrapnel wounds in both arms and in his
face, although he did not know about the wounds in his face until years later because
when he had blood all over him, he did not know where it came from (00:51:16:00)
 He did not care at the time; if he was vertical and breath, he did not ask any
questions (00:51:32:00)
 The infection in the wounds was bad and he got a serious infection to the point
that it was burning him up and he was getting delirious (00:51:41:00)
o All he remembers was laying down and the next thing he knew, a Montagnard or some
other native tribesman stepped on him (00:51:51:00)
 They did not speak English and he did not speak their dialect, although he knew
a little Vietnamese (00:52:05:00)
 The two groups had a strange understanding; Hodges knew they were trying to
help him, which they did (00:52:17:00)
 The potion that the women in the tribe created was unusual and it burned, but
they packed it into the wounds, doctored Hodges up and sent him on his way
(00:52:23:00)
 They offered Hodges some food, but although he had been surviving off of
eating raw fish, scales included, he could not bring himself to eat what they had
in their pot (00:52:42:00)
The natives were a big part of his survival and he does not think he would have made it past that
day without their intervention (00:53:03:00)
When everything was blowing up on their last mission, Hodges had exchanged his standard
M203 for the M1903 Springfield and was taking potshots at the enemy, mainly to reach out and
harass them (00:53:20:00)
o More importantly, the Springfield gave him the ability to care more claymores and
explosives, meaning that he could do his job better, indirect warfare and making booby
traps (00:53:41:00)
 Hodges’ team found out that booby traps worked more effectively against the
enemy and made their job easier (00:53:51:00)
 They had a pretty close mission prior to his last mission and there was a rumor
that the team heard when they went back to get resupplied; another team had
been completely decimated, which Hodges had on his mind (00:53:58:00)
On the last mission, the team wanted to try to move back from the enemy because they realized
that the enemy would eventually become wise to their tricks (00:54:12:00)
The last mission went terribly wrong (00:54:23:00)
o He imagines that because of the explosions, a couple of the team members were killed
outright (00:54:24:00)
o What happened afterwards he does not know because it turned into pure chaos and he
was never aware that he was hit or had any injuries until several days later, when he
started running a fever (00:54:34:00)
 When he would lay down, the pain finally started to creep in (00:54:48:00)

End of Tour (00:54:58:00)
 The Army stopped the covert missions after the incident with Hodges’ team, although if they ran
any more, Hodges was not aware of it (00:54:58:00)
o He was not privy to the information and he did not know how many teams they would
be using or if they were in close proximity to Hodges’ team (00:55:04:00)
o They did not talk about those things and they did not use real names, only code-names
and nicknames (00:55:12:00)

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You learn a lot about yourself when you go through an experience like that, as well as your
enemy, making it not as clear cut as people would think (00:55:27:00)
o Hodges’ belief is that it was not the warrior that started the fight, but the government and
politicians and they left it up to the people to finish the fight (00:55:42:00)
o He saw a lot of cases where NVA soldiers should have been killed but they happened to
run into the right patrol, which allowed the NVA to live (00:56:01:00)
 They were not supposed to take the NVA prisoner but the patrols did it anyway
(00:56:12:00)
o The human element creeps in when they would run into situations when they could see
the raw soul of a human (00:56:17:00)
 They found out real quick what type of character they had when nobody else was
looking (00:56:37:00)
He had been a cowboy all his life and he learned to focus, be his own man, and take care of
himself (00:56:54:00)
o For his first job when he was fourteen, he showed up on a ranch that he wanted to work
at because the boss was a tough guy and everybody respected him (00:57:02:00)
 The boss kept some nice horses and Hodges wanted to get his hands on them
because he liked horses as well (00:57:13:00)
o Hodges took the job and the first day he was there, he rode up next to the boss, trying to
impress him; the boss was concentrating on the cattle operation and writing information
down and when Hodges rode up next to him and asked what he want Hodges to do, the
boss, with a wad of chewing tobacco in his mouth, spit on Hodges's horse and said that
he could start by shutting up and doing what he was told, when he was told
(00:57:22:00)
o It was still a great day because Hodges got to talk to the boss, although he was only told
to shut up (00:57:59:00)
 This was the type of men that Hodges grew up with (00:58:09:00)
 If he fell off his horse, he did not sit there and whine, he knew better than to even
open his mouth; if something was wrong, he got up, got on his horse, and went
to get help (00:58:13:00)
o Doing this type of work was the precursor for the soldier that appeared and was able to
do the job the way it needed to be done (00:58:38:00)
Spent around five to six months with the 196th Infantry (00:59:18:00)
Before he was assigned to the 196th, he got to go to the United States and the Army said that he
would have a two week leave (00:59:24:00)
o The rumor was that he was going home (00:59:35:00)
o He got on the plane and this time, it was the first time he ever flew on a 747 and they
flew a different route, from Vietnam to the Philippines to Hawaii and then to Oakland
(00:59:41:00)
o He went home for a week and a half before the Army said that he had to go back
(00:59:57:00)
When he loaded up, he went back and when he got back, the Army explained that they needed
some men to lead the last infantry company in the field around Da Nang (01:00:04:00)
o Da Nang was important and the military needed time to pull the units out (01:00:22:00)
o The company ran ambush patrols, which was Hodges’s forte, and he and the other
officers taught the men in the company (01:00:30:00)
When Hodges got to the company, it was in terribly bad shape and he even wrote a letter to his
dad saying that they needed to do a Congressional investigation because the company did not get
resupplied on time or medevacs on time (01:00:40:00)

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o Hodges’s father wrote the letter to the president of the VFW post he belonged to and the
president wrote another letter to President Nixon (01:01:01:00)
o President Nixon initiated a Congressional investigation, although it was odd because
Hodges did not receive any information until four years later (01:01:10:00)
o The investigation substantiated the claims, but in typical military fashion, at the end of
each allegation, it said that the commander was reminded of this and steps were taken to
ensure that it would never happen again (01:01:18:00)
o They were already out of the country, so what was the point (01:01:35:00)
o The Army did eventually give the company assistance (01:01:42:00)
Things were not terribly active then, everything was gearing down, and Hodges believes that the
NVA realized that the U.S. was going to go with a different strategy (01:01:46:00)
o Their new strategy was to let the U.S. pull out and they would deal with the South
Vietnamese on their own terms (01:01:58:00)
o The NVA were beaten down and one of the NVA generals questioned why the U.S.
pulled out, because they had the NVA on the ropes (01:02:09:00)
The last combat soldiers left in the field in 1972 were the 196th Infantry (01:02:34:00)
o The 196th flew from Da Nang into Hue and they helped clear out the city during the
North Vietnamese offensive in 1972 (01:02:48:00)
o The 196th pushed the ARVNs in front of them while they supplied covering fire and
American pilots flew bombing runs (01:02:55:00)
o They then pulled the 196th back to Da Nang and the mission to Hue was short-lived;
Hodges believes that the mission went off “half-cocked” because someone got the wrong
orders from somewhere (01:03:06:00)
 The NVA gave up too easy, although they were known for standing and fighting
(01:03:22:00)
They finished working at Da Nang and the Army pulled them and all the support personnel out
of the field and two years later, the NVA moved into Saigon (01:03:32:00)
He saw some of the ARVN units that looked similar to the U.S. units and others where,
generically, the soldiers would throw down their guns and run (01:04:05:00)
o The ARVNs really did not have the will to fight as determinedly as the NVA or the VC
(01:04:15:00)
o They had special forces units with the ARVN and they were good and they worked well
with the American units (01:04:28:00)
o The regular line infantry were questionable and they did not have a lot of artillery to
speak of (01:04:40:00)
o Some of the pilots did very well; a lot flew single-engine aircraft and did close-in
support for some of the special ops missions (01:04:51:00)
 Others flew helicopters and the Americans did not like flying in their helicopters
(01:05:05:00)
 They made the Vietnamese pilots wear white helmets and if the men saw a pilot
with a white helmet, they would tell him that they would take the next helicopter
(01:05:09:00)
o The men respected the Vietnamese as people and they tired to help the Vietnamese out
and give them the idea of free men and what they could be (01:05:20:00)
They were all out in the jungle and he can count on the number of hands the times he saw a base
camp or fire base (01:05:42:00)
o If they were at one, they were there for thirty minutes to an hour to get resupplied before
flying back out (01:05:48:00)

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He was in love with Joey Heatherton, a blonde bombshell, and he found out that she would be at
the division's base camp at Christmas, 1971 (01:06:06:00)
o Hodges was out in the field doing push-ups to get buff to impress her and telling
everyone that he was going to get a date with her (01:06:12:00)
o The day that they were supposed to come out of the field, he was waiting for the
helicopter to come pick him up when his Lieutenant called him back and told him hold
the units position and they would be doing patrols in the “rocket belt” outside the camp
to make sure no one rocketed the show (01:06:25:00)
o He never did get to see Joey Heatherton, although everybody else got to (01:06:48:00)
He felt sorry for Vietnamese people because the war was a hard thing to watch (01:07:05:00)
o They had no hope, not matter which way the war went because one way or another, they
were still going to be in the same condition as before the Americans ever arrived
(01:07:18:00)
o They were people victimized by others who had a lot of money and they treated the
Vietnamese like dirt, although they were so used to it, Hodges believes it is engrained in
the culture and in some cases, they did not seem to mind it (01:07:28:00)
o The men saw humans that never truly lived; they just existed from one day to the next
(01:07:46:00)
o Now, they are capitalist and are prosperous, although there are people in the remote
areas that are in poorer conditions (01:08:02:00)
o Rough to watch humans suffering and being powerless to do anything for them and
doing the little things, such as running the VC out of a village or an area, were important
(01:08:21:00)
The situation at that time was stopping the domino effect from taking place, which his friends in
intelligence explained from the beginning (01:08:57:00)
o When they looked at an outline of Vietnam and saw China right above it, and the Soviet
Union next, they knew that they had made since that day and their efforts to take over
the Eastern Hemisphere (01:09:10:00)
He still calls Russians “Soviets” because it is a mentality that there is one side called freedom
and another side for something else and in his book, freedom is the only side he would be on
(01:09:49:00)
o They can call him or themselves whatever they want, he is going to stand on the side that
he is on, the side of freedom and human dignity, and if they gave him any other thing on
the plate, then they have got a fight (01:10:05:00)
o Believes that the NVA understood this because the United States defeated them in every
conflict they had, especially the Tet offensive (01:10:18:00)
o Armies that are brainwashed into following are like bullies and the only way to deal with
bullies is to smack them hard whenever they show up (01:10:38:00)
o If they had to do it again, he would be the first in line and if they would let him, he
would be with the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan (01:10:55:00)
When the U.S. pulled out of Vietnam, he still had about nine or ten months left on his tour,
which was like torture because of the assignments they had done and who they had become
(01:11:16:00)
o They were about the farthest thing from garrison soldiers there were; they were probably
closer to mad dogs than anything (01:11:28:00)
o The military “threw” away the soldiers at Fort Hood, which served as a repository for
everyone like Hodges; their military careers were done because Nixon had started the
new “volunteer” Army and there was no room for men like Hodges, the old school
(01:10:05:00)

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o Made Hodges mad at the time because he did not understand what they were doing,
although he understands it now (01:12:00:00)
The politicians wanted to manipulate the military, specifically the Army, and the men were
resistant to it, although there was no longer a function for them and their special skills were no
longer needed (01:12:10:00)
o The politicians put a lot of pressure on the men by making them sit in a motor pool all
day, although they lived in barracks quite modern compared to the ones they had trained
in and had a mess hall that was almost like gourmet food (01:12:33:00)
o The men were like an old work horse on the ranch; they got whatever the could out of it
and in the end, they forced it out into the field because he had become a liability
(01:13:22:00)
Finished out his tour, although it had a pretty rough ending (01:13:40:00)

Post-Military (01:13:46:00)
 Once he got out of the military, then the real horror started with the way that other people treated
them (01:13:46:00)
o The men were told to keep their mouth shut and not let anyone know that they had
served in Vietnam because the people did not like the war (01:13:58:00)
 That sentiment has not gone away and Hodges’ has four clients at his current job
that resent him for having served in the military, let alone Vietnam
(01:14:06:00)
 One of the men said that when he heard Hodges had served in Vietnam, he did
not want to hear about that crap and that those baby killers need to take their due
and go on home (01:14:17:00)
 The old clichés and believes are hard to die because people believe it is a fact
and they have been misinformed (01:14:32:00)
o If he went to apply for a job, he never put Vietnam veteran on the application or resume
and every time others talked about the war, they got the hell beat out of them
(01:14:47:00)
 He started drinking a fifth and a half of Jack Daniels a day, chewed tobacco all day, smoked
about four packs of unfiltered cigarettes a day and was on a collision course with himself
(01:15:16:00)
 He technically was homeless because he could not go home to his family because he was no
longer himself (01:15:33:00)
o He could not eat anything except for Jack-in-the-Box tacos; everything else he threw-up,
so he bought C-Rations from a surplus store in Galveston, Texas and would fill his
truck, eating only them (01:15:44:00)
o He roamed around for a while before he had to sell his truck and then he thumbed rides
and killed coyotes for bounties at one point (01:16:04:00)
 All of the sudden, he got into security work, which he liked and got into armored car operations
(01:16:20:00)
 He worked every phase of security that he could and then left there and went into law
enforcement, were he stayed for twenty years (01:16:33:00)
o He became a lead investigator in the Alamo Bay incident when Vietnamese and
American shrimpers went to war of the Vietnamese coast (01:16:43:00)
o Worked on the federal task force for about sixteen years as an intelligence officer and as
a detective (01:16:56:00)

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o Had a lot of very great jobs and some unbelievable experiences that were brought to him
because of who he was and he got to use the experience that he though at that time was a
bad thing and turn it into a good thing (01:17:07:00)
o They say about warriors that they continue to march and this was how Hodges continued
to march (01:17:30:00)
He might not have been able to retire from the military but in a way, he had spent all of his life
soldiering, which is what he started out to do (01:17:36:00)
When he first got into law enforcement, during training, an instructor was teaching how to go
through a building to get the bad guy with the gun (01:18:27:00)
o The instructor was showing dramatic moves with the gun and a flashlight and Hodges
was sitting and looking and wondering what was the matter with the instructor
(01:18:35:00)
o Finally, on a break, the instructor talked to Hodges and said that he had noticed Hodges’
sour look on his face (01:18:45:00)
o Hodges said that he did not know why they were teaching the trainees this; the instructor
said that he was trying to save their lives and Hodges said that the instructor might be
taking them because when they turned the flashlight on, the bad guys will know how
many cops there are and where the cops are (01:18:53:00)
 Hodges said that he did not care how tactically they held the flashlight and gun,
all the bad guys had to do was start spraying bullets and the cops would probably
get hit (01:19:07:00)
o That method was not in Hodges’ book on how to do it, so the instructor backed up and
asked Hodges how he would do it (01:19:16:00)
o They went and Hodges told them to put a man in the building; a man did and the
instructor offered Hodges his flashlight (01:19:24:00)
o Hodges declined and when the instructor asked how Hodges would find the man,
Hodges said that he would sense him (01:19:36:00)
o He went into the building and came out with the man in handcuffs with no shoots fired
(01:19:42:00)
 When the instructor asked how Hodges did it, he said “the same way Ray
Charles plays the piano, without looking” (01:19:47:00)
o They sense things, although they use their eyes too much, and this was the one thing that
Hodges learned during the war, the majority of his senses were not used because before
there was never a need for him to use them (01:19:57:00)
 People are brainwashed as kids into they need to see something when they really
did not (01:20:16:00)
o He started teaching law enforcement officers and he was surprised that the instructor
who thought he was being a smart-ass wanted to learn right then (01:20:23:00)
o Hodges showed him and the others and this lead him to one of the most successful
entrepreneurships he had, which was designing some of the first formulas for pepperspray (01:20:35:00)
He used his summation of what he had seen tribal women in Vietnam and he figured it was what
his grandfather had used on himself and horses, a mixture of chewing tobacco, cayenne pepper
and whiskey (01:20:50:00)
o He developed on that and came up with a formula that sold like hot cakes (01:21:19:00)
He also developed the first decontamination spray for the people who had been sprayed by
pepper spray (01:21:32:00)
o He remembered an old woman who gave him a salsa after he had gotten hunger over and
told him to eat and he would be sober (01:22:00:00)

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o The salsa was hot and so the old woman gave him a cup of coffee and a chocolate bar,
which Hodges later realized help limit the heat, which he used in the decontamination
spray (01:20:25:00)
o The first time he tried it, the spray did not work and on a flight home from Phoenix, it hit
him to balance the Ph of the spray and the next time, the spray worked (01:23:16:00)
These endeavors all came directly from the war and he began to realize that even though he is
not fighting the war anymore, he can still fight by using the techniques and tactics he had
learned in a quasi-military role (01:23:40:00)
o Law enforcement and security paved the way and he still does that type of work today,
including counter-terrorism and cyber warfare, which he took a month long school for
and learned how to be a systems administrator (01:24:00:00)
o They bring a lot of baggage out of the war zone but at some point in time, they had to get
their head straight and realize that some of the stuff could be used (01:24:27:00)
He sat silent for thirty-six years and never told anyone what had happened (01:25:00:00)
Eventually he met the director of the Hauenstein Center in the middle of cow pasture working
cattle when the director’s family went to Hodges's ranch for a vacation (01:25:08:00)
o The director and Hodges became friends and the director and his family went down to
Hodges’ regularly (01:25:22:00)
The only reason that Hodges talked to the director was that the director could tell that Hodges
had something bothering him and vice versa (01:26:03:00)
o The two played cat and mouse, telling each other their stories (01:26:12:00)
o The director’s dad had been in World War II and he had questions about why his dad
acted certain ways, some of which Hodges was able to answer (01:26:19:00)
Eventually, Hodges gave up a little more of his story and the director had Hodges come up to
Michigan in August, 2006; Hodges originally refused, saying that he was not supposed to talk
about what he had done but the director kept prodding (01:26:31:00)
o Hodges talked with his dad and he told Hodges that if he had kept the secret for thirtysix years, he was doing better than the rest of them and the dad did not think anybody
would care anymore (01:26:49:00)
o Hodges’ dad told him to come up Michigan and tell the story (01:27:11:00)
o This was the first time Hodges had ever opened up to anyone and he thinks that no one
was more shocked about it than his family because they never knew what he had done
and his dad knew better than to ask him any questions (01:27:15:00)
o His family just left his story alone and figured that he would eventually come around
(01:27:28:00)
He kept those things inside and some people wanted to know what had happened and some
people did not because his story either helped from their beliefs right or wrong (01:27:37:00)
It was thirty-six years and it was the greatest day that he could remember and he came back in
2008 to do a PTSD conference, a three person discussion and a Q &amp; A session (01:27:58:00)
The things became so powerful and during his speech in 2006, a lady in the audience and as he
kept talking, he kept watching her sitting in the middle of the room (01:28:19:00)
o The woman was fiddling with envelopes, which made Hodges think she was a reporter
and when Hodges finished speaking, they had a Q &amp; A session (01:28:44:00)
o The woman had either the third or fourth question and it became apparent that she had
heard Hodges talking on the radio before the speech (01:28:52:00)
o Her husband was dead and she never knew what had happened, so she brought his letters
home with her and Hodges went off the stage, gave her the microphone, and she read the
letters out loud (01:29:08:00)

�





Her husband mentioned that she would be the first woman on the block to know
that her husband was in Laos, so Hodges’ presentation made it full circle for her
and she understood (01:29:34:00)
o The woman reinforced the idea in Hodges that if he did not tell the stories, then he does
not help other people that are out there (01:30:17:00)
The first presentation lit the fuse and Hodges now has two books started, one on PTSD and one
on himself and got invited back to Michigan to do another presentation (01:30:31:00)
o He has recontacted the only people that he knew the names of in one of their operations
and is trying to get the whole team back together on film and get them to discuss what
they had done, so that it is not just Hodges’ story, but their story (01:31:10:00)
 This is the way that Hodges would rather tell it, because that is the way that it
was (01:31:27:00)
o It is important for Hodges to know that someone fifty years in the future will not pull out
some book where the author has his own agenda (01:31:38:00)
He appreciates projects where people can hear it “straight from the horse’s mouth” and they
understand the emotion and the compelling reason why the men did what they did
(01:31:54:00)
o His destiny was to be a soldier and that was what he was and in the process, they help
other people (01:32:16:00)

�</text>
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                    <text>Hodges, Terry
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: Terry Hodges
Length of Interview: (58:23)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, Terry. Begin with some background on yourself. And where and when
were you born?”
I was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. January 1st, 1948.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you grow up in Baton Rouge, or did you move around?”
I spent my whole life in Baton Rouge up until the graduation from high school, and then I went
to college at Hammond, Louisiana at Southeastern Louisiana University.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what did your family do for a living when you were a kid?”
My mother was an executive secretary for the Department of Conservation for the state of
Louisiana. I grew up with three brothers, and we all grew up in our grandfather’s house. My
parents divorced when I was six, and Mother never remarried.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when did you graduate from high school?”
1966.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did you go after that?” (1:00)
I went to—on a football scholarship to Southeastern.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay there?”
I was there three years, and that’s where I was at when I was drafted.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now was it a four year school?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “So you had another year left. So how was it that you came to be drafted?”
I went there on a football scholarship and always wanted a vehicle of my own. So after my junior
year of spring training, I dropped out of school. Went to work. Worked the rest of that spring and

�Hodges, Terry
that summer because I wanted an automobile for my senior year. And worked, made enough
money, bought a car. Used car, but my car. And was actually back at school. Football practice
always started—two a day—on August the fifteenth. And I was there for approximately a week
practicing football and got a draft notice. (2:05)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what did you do once you got that notice?”
Well, I’d been drafted.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you request an extension or anything, or did you just do what they
told you?”
I just did what I was supposed to do, I guess. Is how I felt about it.
Interviewer: “All right. So where did they send you for basic training?”
I went to basic and advanced infantry training both at Fort Polk, Louisiana.
Interviewer: “Okay, so relatively close to home anyway.”
Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now describe the basic training experience. What was that
like?”
Regimented. Getting up earlier than I was used to getting up. But it wasn’t a bad experience. I
mean, I was physically active all my life, so it wasn’t any kind of physical problem or mental
problem or anything like that. Just went through basic.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. How did the drill instructors treat you?”
Okay. I still recall my drill instructor for our barracks was—Sonny we called him. But he was a
really nice guy. Fairly young fellow. But got along with him fine. As a matter of fact, in basic, I
was one of the guys in—for whatever reason—I was elevated to barracks leader. You know,
platoon leader, what have you.
Interviewer: “Well, you were maybe a year or so older than a lot of the guys there.”
Yes, I was, and I was somewhat more proficient in the athletics of it.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah. I mean, football player, so yeah.”
Yeah, but see, I didn’t realize that that was not a good thing for me at the time. I should have
been saying, “Hey, I love to type,” and things like that. So I wasn’t the brightest bulb on the tree
at that point in time.

�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Yeah, but they kind of wanted a lot of infantry men at that point, so I don’t
even know if that would have helped you.”
I agree, I agree.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you get through it, and how long was the basic training?”
I think it was six weeks. I believe that’s what basic was.
Interviewer: “It’s usually eight.”
Okay, eight weeks. That’s probably—You know.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but not all that long in the whole.” (4:05)
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then you stay then. And then for your advanced
training, is that infantry training?”
Yes. Yeah. At Fort Polk.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how was the advanced training different from basic?”
Well, weapons were involved. You know, becoming acquainted with the M16 and the .60 caliber
machine gun. Going to firing ranges instead of just going on long walks, so to speak. And, of
course, it was geared toward getting you prepared. Everyone knew that pretty much—that we
were going to be going to Vietnam. So that was the end of ‘67.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Now did they make any effort to teach you how to deal with the
Vietnamese themselves? I mean, do they have a mock village or anything like that?”
I don’t recall that. No, I do not. Now I do recall that we were introduced to a Vietnamese fellow
who was a sapper as they call them, and he was showing off his skills as far as stealth and what
they were capable of doing and so on. I remember that. Other than that…
Interviewer: “But nothing about the society or the people or…?”
Oh, no, no. There was nothing that I recall. It was primarily geared toward, you know, patriotism
and being the best soldier you could and so on.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and just how to function as an infantryman in the field.”
Exactly, exactly. Be the best soldier you could, which would give you the best chance of being
successful.

�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were a lot of the instructors Vietnam veterans?”
I believe they were. Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now did you have any sense of who the guys you were
training with—where they were from or why they were there or…?”
They were from all over. There was a large contingency from New York that were in my
barracks. (6:02) But there was a lot of people that were from Louisiana. Palled up with a guy
from Port Allen, which is across the river from Baton Rouge. Ronnie Gisler. We became good
friends. Also met a fellow named Browning. Robert Gwinn Browning who actually ended up in
Vietnam with me. He was my bud, you know. So you make relationships and go through, but we
all kind of enjoyed all of the rappelling and firing weapons and so on.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. So at that point you’re still kind of playing soldier for the most
part.”
Yeah. There was an ominous overtone always, but, well, there was a reality that was there. But, I
mean, I grew up—I was a Boy Scout. Had always spent time in the woods. So it wasn’t that
foreign to me. Some of these guys from New York—It was quite a bit of culture shock for them.
Interviewer: “All right. How much did you know about Vietnam at that point?”
Other than the fact that we’re involved in a very bad—what I thought to be a very stupid war…
Interviewer: “Okay, so you had an understanding that maybe the war wasn’t such a good
idea.”
Oh, I knew for sure it wasn’t a good idea, and I knew for sure that there were people that were
getting killed or maimed that—for what I thought were fairly political reasons. And I’ve always
held that belief. And I always had the realization that once I had got drafted, that, boy, I had
really messed up. And actually my brother—one of my younger brothers—ended up getting my
car. So I did a lot of that for nothing as it turned out.
Interviewer: “All right, so you complete AIT, and that’s probably the same length of time
as the basic was.”
Yes. Yeah, I think so. I think so.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then do you get orders for Vietnam, or do you go
somewhere else first?” (8:01)
No. In typical army fashion, there were—I don’t know—twenty something guys, I think, in the
entire company that had signed up to go to NCOC School at Fort Benning, Georgia. Shake n’
Bake school. And they took thirteen or fourteen of us that had not signed up and sent us. And I
don’t think any of the guys that actually signed up actually went. Got orders to go. And we were

�Hodges, Terry
somewhat apprised of what Shake n’ Bake school was all about and so on. And Ronnie Gisler
from Plaquemine hadn’t signed up as well, but he was sent also. And so we were, of course,
flying out of the same airport. Going to Fort Benning to start Shake n’ Bake school. They flew us
up. We arrived there on base on a Friday, and the school actually started on Monday. So once
you got in and got settled in, they actually gave you a weekend pass. So we went into town and,
of course, do what young men do, you know, in a town you’re not familiar with. We hit all the—
every bar we could and so on. And Ronnie and I both decided that we had no desire to go
through NCOC School. So we reported back in, you know, Saturday evening. Sunday evening.
And the first formation on Monday morning Ronnie and I went up to the attic in the barracks and
hid. And they had the formation. We could hear them. They were right outside in the company
area, and they were looking, you know.“Where’s Hodges? Where’s Gisler?” And everything.
And we were just sitting up there saying, “I ain’t going to do this. I’m not going to do this.” And
so they ended up getting everybody there in formation, and they marched them off. They were
going somewhere, you know. I don’t know. But when they left the area, we came down into the
barracks, went in through the CO’s office, and he said, “Well, y’all missed the first formation,
you know. You’re going to be—It’s not necessarily court-martialed, but you’re going to be
busted. Back to E1.” And he said, “At E1 you can’t go through this school.” (10:17) So we said,
“Mission accomplished.” That was great, you know. But then we got—Shortly after that, we got
orders for Vietnam, which is where we knew we were going to go anyway. So when we got to
Vietnam, we were automatically made E3 again because I don’t think you could be in country
without being at least a PFC.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah. That was a standard thing. Now why did you decide you didn’t
want to do the NCO training?”
What I—What my belief was was that it was a very serious place, and I didn’t think—from
everything I had heard—that NCOC—Shake n’ Bake sergeants weren’t that well thought of.
Didn’t necessarily know exactly what to do. And I didn’t want to be in that position. I just—I felt
if I were going to tell men what to do that I should—I should go through it first, I guess. And I
did not think that a pretend NCOC School would prepare me to do that. I just didn’t—I didn’t
think it was right to show up over there and start telling men what to do when I wasn’t apprised
of what actually was happening. So that’s the reason that Ronnie and I both decided not to go
through it. We were the only two that didn’t go that particular day.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Of course, it was—I think you’re the first people I’ve ever heard of
who were sent to NCO-School when they didn’t actually sign up for it. So that wasn’t a
normal circumstance to be in.”
No, we did not sign up. We did not. We did not.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Did you get a leave home before you went overseas?” (12:01)
A few days, yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. And then—And how do they get you to Vietnam?”

�Hodges, Terry
Flew to—What base was it? I don’t really recall.
Interviewer: “Did you go to Seattle?”
It could have been Fort Lewis.
Interviewer: “Yeah, Fort Lewis, Washington would be—If you went up there, that’s where
you went.”
And then went from there over to Cam Ranh Bay.
Interviewer: “Okay. What’s your first impression of Vietnam when you get there?”
Hot, hot. The day I arrived—Went out on the steel tarmac. It was 114 degrees, and you could see
the heat waves coming off the tarmac. So it was—It was quite warm.
Interviewer: “Even for a man from Louisiana that was a little—”
It was quite warm.
Interviewer: “All right.”
Yeah, it was hot.
Interviewer: “Okay. What did they do with you once you get off the plane?”
You got off the plane with your duffel. Well, you got issued your—you know, your gear and
stuff like that. And then they started calling people’s names and assigned you to a company. I
think I was in Cam Ranh for like two days. Got my orders to report to Delta Company. 1st of the
506.
Interviewer: “Okay. In the 101st Airborne Division.”
101st Airborne, yes.
Interviewer: “All right, and then how did you get up to join them?”
Helicopter to the rear at Camp Evans, and then they later—Helicopter again out to Firebase
Kathyrn.
Interviewer: “All right, and so when was this that you got out there?”
Early June. It was early June.
Interviewer: “Okay. Early June now of 1970. All right, and then when you join your
company, what kind of reception do you get?”

�Hodges, Terry

Cordial. Nice. I mean, people were, you know—They were helpful. Got my first squad leader.
Was Randy Beek who I thought the world of. Really nice guy. Concerned about people. And got
issued a bunch of gear. (14:08) What have you. But the—And then you’ve got to get into the
flow of things. The very first job I was given was to burn a bucket of shit. So that’s the first thing
I did on Kathryn. Was to mix fougasse in with a pile of shit and burn it. That was my first job. I
guess they figure if you’ll do that, then you’ll probably be responsive if they ask you to do
something else.
Interviewer: “Well, yeah, that and you’re the low guy on the totem pole, so you get the ugly
job.”
Exactly, exactly. And you’ve got to realize that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how long did you stay on Kathyrn before you moved out?”
We weren’t there probably another three or four days, and we rucked up and we’re sticking to
the jungle.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you walk out, or did they fly you someplace else?”
No, they flew us out. They flew us out.
Interviewer: “Okay. Had you ridden in helicopters—except for the trip up?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. This is all new. And then that first trip out in the field. Do you
remember anything about that?”
No, it was rather uneventful. It took me—When I first stood up with my full gear on, full sack, I
remember I was thinking to myself—And I was in fairly good shape. And I said, “Man, there’s
no way I’m going to be able to walk around with this on my back.” I mean, my legs were
wobbling almost. But by the third day I was hupping with the best of them. As a matter of fact, I
was starting to—I walked point. And I walked point for most of my time over there.
Interviewer: “Okay. Walking point is something a lot of people don’t always want to do.”
I wanted to watch after my own butt. I didn’t want somebody else watching. Plus, it—There’s an
added benefit if you walk point. You don’t have to carry as much ammunition. So there was an
ulterior motive as well.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now you said you had—Growing up, you had spent a lot of
time in the woods and that kind of thing. Did that sort of help you at this point?” (16:03)

�Hodges, Terry
I was acclimated to the woods. Not so much thick jungle, but I had always loved being in the
woods. Became a Life Scout. Always hunted and so on. So I was quite comfortable in the woods.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now at this point, sort of—Now it’s June 1970. Were you
encountering many enemy? Did you have much contact, or was it quiet?”
No, no. Nothing prior to that day. That was the first interaction with an enemy that I had.
Interviewer: “Okay, so before that—And this is getting into the latter part of July when
you’re sent out to the Ripcord area, and your company gets in trouble. So before that,
basically are you just patrolling in the jungle? And how long would you stay out if you’re—
When they take you out, would you be out for a few days or couple weeks or…?”
A few weeks. It got to be the routine that we were out for forty-five days or thereabouts, and then
back in the rear for seven. There were a couple occasions during the monsoons where we stayed
out much longer than forty-five days because they just couldn’t get to us. Everything was socked
in.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so when you’re out there, what would be sort of a typical thing to
do in a day? Were you usually in the jungle areas, or…?”
Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so you have stayed someplace for the night. You get up in
the morning. Now what happens?”
You put your sack on, and they tell you which direction they want to go in that day. And you
start matriculating that day.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now would the company usually operate as a unit, or would you break
down into platoons?”
We would break down into platoons more often than not. (18:00) The company didn’t do
anything that I recall as a single unit going in one, you know—Everybody went in the same
direction, but we were—We weren’t one after the other for 125 men or something like that,
which, I guess, tactically didn’t make any sense.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, I guess the other thing would be were the platoons within
contact of each other and able to support each other.”
Certainly. Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, and so now who was your company commander at
that point?”
Workman.

�Hodges, Terry

Interviewer: “Okay, and how would you describe him?”
I didn’t have a whole lot of contact with him. You know, as far as captains go, I guess he was
just fine.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you see more of your platoon leader?”
Yeah. LT Thompson. I thought he was a great guy. He was a great guy.
Interviewer: “Okay, and about how large was your platoon?”
I don’t really know. I really don’t know. We had what? Four squads? Probably ten men per
squad so thereabouts. I didn’t pay attention to a lot of that.
Interviewer: “Well, a lot of times a lot of the units were pretty badly under strength. Now
maybe when you came in, did some other new guys come in with you?”
Oh, yes, yes. I think, as a result of the conflict in May, they were undermanned. So there was—
Yeah, there were several people. Browning and I both were put in the same platoon.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, so initially—And so, I guess, then—So you’re—You
basically—You’d advance. You’d go to wherever you’re supposed to go to. And what
would you do at night if you’re out in the field?”
You always set up an LP at night, and nobody enjoyed doing that. But you took your turn.
Interviewer: “LP being a listening post?”
Listening post. Other than that, you spread around. If it were possible to dig a hole, you dug a
hole. If not, then you just made do with what was available to you and try to protect your
position. (20:12) And hunker down and go to sleep.
Interviewer: “Okay. When you first went out in the field, did you keep thinking there were
RAD guys out there, or did you hear things? Or were you jumpier, or were you just…?”
I knew I was in a war. I mean, I knew that there were people out there with bad intention. And
you try and steel yourself to that, but I didn’t—I didn’t give it a whole lot of thought. I just knew
that it wasn’t going to be pleasant. It was my job to take care of myself and everybody else that I
could, and if something were to happen, then to—It’s time to man up and do your job.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you’re moving through the jungle, would you go on trails,
or would you make your own?”
No, we tended to stay off the trails because there were booby-trapped trails, and so we learned
very well—I was taught very quickly that your best avenue through the jungle is to make your

�Hodges, Terry
own way through the jungle, which, of course, makes for very long days because it’s thick, and
everything gets hung up. And it’s hard, and it’s hot. And it’s humid, and it’s pretty miserable.
But that was—That’s what we did, day in and day out. Always tried to do my job as point man
looking where I was supposed to look.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when you’re point man, about how far would you be ahead from
the next man behind you?”
Not that far, but then, if you’re in triple canopy jungle, you’re not going to be very far away from
anybody. There’s just—It’s not like an open trail where, if somebody’s lagging back a little bit,
you get a little space in there. Everybody’s kind of trying to—And you’re punching a hole so
people can follow, but everybody gets hung up. (22:07) So there may be spaces at times, but they
always close it up. So I wouldn’t say very far away at all.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now did you have rules, especially when you were camped?
Light discipline or noise discipline?”
Oh, yeah. No, you didn’t make any unnecessary noises. You know, that’s common sense, I
guess.
Interviewer: “Would people smoke in the field?”
Sure. Sure, they would, but you always cup your cigarette. You don’t ever light a cigarette in the
open. You know, you used common sense about that.
Interviewer: “Yep. Okay. All right, and how much food would you carry or water?”
Six canteens I think it was. Maybe sometimes a little bit more. As much food as you could stuff
in your sack. I remember getting—Sometimes we had a resupply with a whole case of food, and
that was great. And you carried all of it, but then you’re also responsible for carrying your own
ammunition. Sometimes you had to carry extra .60 ammunition for the M60, so, you know, it
was about an eighty-five pound sack on your back.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you—What did you do with the C-Ration cans or things like
that? Your garbage, basically. Did you have to bury that, or did you take it with you? Or
just leave it?”
We just left it. I mean, we weren’t overly neat about that or anything. We did. I guess there were
times when we buried it. I don’t think it would stay buried. I think the critters—As soon you’d
leave, they’d go dig something up, you know, because they would smell it. But no, we didn’t.
We certainly didn’t carry it with us. You’re always trying to shed weight.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you have a Vietnamese scout with you?” (24:01)
I’m sorry?

�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Did you have a Kit Carson scout?
Yes, yes. I did. I did. As a matter of fact, mine walked slack for me sometimes.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now some of those people were actual ex-NVA or Viet Cong and knew
what they were doing, and others seemed to be staying out of the South Vietnamese army.
Was this guy actually good at his job?”
He seemed to be. Seemed to be very conscientious.
Interviewer: “If he’s walking slack with you, that says something already, I guess.”
Yeah, well, it—No, he was—He was concerned about what he was doing. He always seemed to
be doing his job. And then I told him. I said, “If somebody ever shoots me and it’s your fault,
I’m going to shoot you.”
Interviewer: “Okay, so you spend about a month and a half or something like that out
there—been patrolling around—or maybe, I guess, like June and into July. And then, while
that’s going on, the siege of Firebase Ripcord is getting more complicated, and the more
and more NVA are concentrating around that. And then your company is sent in.”
We were sent in from the rear from Camp Evans.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and so, well, tell me about that expedition. You get the orders to
go out. Now what happens?”
We kind of knew this was not going to be good. I had heard that actually our captain, Workman,
had volunteered us for this even after another company captain had declined to take his company
in there. So we knew this wasn’t, you know, an ideal thing to do. And as we—And leaving the
firebase. Everyone was pretty tense about that, I think. I was. I know I was.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were the more experienced guys acting different, too? Because
the young guys—You hadn’t really been in anything big yet, but the older guys would have
been in firefights and things before. Did they seem—”
Well, I think it was probably the older guys that were telling me, “This is not going to be good.
You need to really tighten up.” (26:13)
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you head out there. Did you take fire as you went in,
or…?”
Yes, we did. We did. They were firing on us as we were landing. All the birds. And, of course,
it’s a known fact if they’re shooting at you when you’re landing, they don’t care if you know
they’re there or not, which is not the norm. Normally, it—I mean, if they’re around, they don’t
want you to know. But if they let themselves be known like that, that’s not a good situation.

�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay, and then do you recall where you’re—You had a string of helicopters
come in to bring you in if you’re coming in on Hueys. Do you know where you were in the
string or how far back?”
You know, I don’t really recall that. Probably the third, fourth bird. I know that we were told that
the birds would definitely not be sitting down. They’ll be getting you close to the ground, and
when they yelled, you jumped. And it was a pretty good jump.
Interviewer: “About how high up do you think you were?”
Probably six, eight feet.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. You hit the ground, and now what do you do?”
People were yelling, “Over here, over here! Move, move, move!” So we moved in that direction.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then that day now do you get into any actual—any other action,
or do things quiet down after you land?”
Things did sort of quiet down after that. And we were at landing zone, and we started moving
down a finger in the mountain to set up. And it was not early in the day. It was more afternoon,
so we started trying to set up a night position, which is the first thing that we did. (28:05) Our
platoon there. And when you’re setting up a position, of course, the first thing you—Once you
decide that, you know—The powers that be decide we’re setting up here. My squad went out
from our perimeter to do a recon of the area. So we were—started going out so far, and I was up
front. And I saw smoke off to my left, and I knew—Didn’t know if it was a spent shell or what,
but we radioed in and said we were going to go make our turn now and go check this out. So we
did. It was nothing. It was a spent shell. And we reconned all the way around the left side of our
perimeter. And we came back to 180 degrees, and then we came back in the back side. The other
squad—Another squad went out, and they were to—responsible to cover the right side. And I
don’t know whether they just hadn’t set up yet because they didn’t know where we were setting
up. Whatever reason. The second squad out got hit. They got ambushed. And that’s when my
good friend, Browning, got hit. Little Bit. Patrick DeWulf. Got hit. Several guys got hit. So that’s
when it all really broke open and started. (30:00) It was bad, and we could hear them down there
screaming, you know. We didn’t know what was going on. So I—For whatever reason, I said,
“Well, I’ve got to go see if I can get to Browning. Get to Little Bit.” So I got on my belly and
started going down the finger, and a .60 caliber machine gun was firing over my head. Got a
little too close, so I screamed back, “Get the fire up!” You know. “You guys!” From here to the
camera I had a sixty round hit, and I said, “Get it up.” And I said—And they did, you know. But
I went down. And going down, going down. And I found Browning who was dead. I don’t know
if he had—I don’t know what happened, but his—All of his stomach was gone. He was
definitely dead. We had support—air support—that day, and the jets were doing their ordinance
down there. And they had knocked trees over. A tree had fallen on top of Browning, and I could
not get him out from underneath it. Couldn’t stand up. So I got his dog tags and his wallet and
personal stuff and started to go down some more. And I heard Little Bit again, and then I heard
rapid fire. And that was that. So I made my way back up to our perimeter. And we ended up

�Hodges, Terry
staying there that night. No. Excuse me. We didn’t. We moved our perimeter because we were
getting chewed up. (32:06)
Interviewer: “Were you being hit with mortars or with small arms fire?”
Small arms. Our own grenades. At least, we figured they were our own grenades. RPG. So we
moved up past the LZ up onto—higher onto the finger of the mountain, and that’s where we
stayed the night. It got—For whatever reason, there wasn’t that much going on that night. I
mean, you didn’t sleep or anything. And right at very first light—It was dusk, and I remember I
was—For whatever reason—I don’t know. But I was cleaning my weapon. Because I was firing
it the day before, and I said, “Well, you better clean it quick.” And I almost had it all the way
back together, and we started hearing boop, boop. And we knew mortars were coming in. So I
slapped my gun together, and I recall a mortar round hitting in front of me. It did not go off
through gravel and dirt and everything, you know, on me. But I was on the ground anyway. But
it didn’t go off. But a lot of others did. And they knew exactly where we were. They knew—
They didn’t miss a single shot, I don’t think. Normally with mortars, you try and adjust. They
were right on from the very first one. So we were up and getting off that—getting off the
mountain, and I remember seeing—Of course, we were trying to pick up the guys that were
wounded, hurt, or worse, and get them down to the LZ. And I remember, you know, there were
quite a few people that were very physically messed up. But we got down, and that’s where we
formed our perimeter again. (34:10) And fought through the day. I don’t know about the other
guys, but I found that they had trees there that had big wings that would come out for roots or
whatever. And I found a hole in the—in between the wings, and we had a lot of ordinance from
people that we’re not going to use it. And I put claymore mines out in front of me, and I put—I
had ample supply of grenades. And if you wanted to come at me, you better be getting down,
you know. But we fought through the day, and, of course, we took casualties through the day.
And they would attack at one side, attack at another side.
Interviewer: “And when they’re attacking, could you ever actually see them?”
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. How close were they getting to you?”
Thirty yards, forty yards. Something like that. And you’d take them out, you know. There
seemed to be a lot of them, so…
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were there at this time—Now I think we’re talking here kind
of—This is about July 21st, 22nd because I think you were pulled out the day before they
pull out of Ripcord itself if my chronology is right. So it’s about that point.”
We were pulled out that next day. Yeah, that morning. Later that afternoon we were—As a
matter of fact, Workman said, “Buddy up. When dark comes, try and slip out into the jungle.”
Then they would have birds patrolling the area for the next few weeks trying to find you and pick
you up. (36:04)

�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were actually expecting to have to disperse into the jungle.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Now had there been—Because there were efforts to bring in helicopters, and
they were having some problems with that.”
Yes, they were having large problems with that.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what do you know or recall, or what did you see of that?”
We were told—And it was late in the afternoon, and we were told the Ghost Riders were coming
in. And I have utmost respect for those guys because they knew they were going to get chewed
up. They were, you know, the first birds in the previous day. They already had everything zeroed
in, so they knew they were going to get chewed up. And they came in anyway. And first bird got
out. Was taking fire. Everyone was taking fire. I ended up being on the third bird out, and then
the next bird they shot down. And that’s where—To my memory, that’s where Captain
Workman caught the prop—the blades—and was cut in half. But I was on the third bird out.
Interviewer: “So you got out of there.”
Entirely fortunate to.
Interviewer: “All right. Now the—Did the—Was part of the company left behind and stuck
there until the next day, or did they all get out eventually?”
No, I think they all got out. They left bodies. They left—I’m sure they left a lot of ordinance, but
I think most everybody got out. I think three or four helicopters were shot down.
Interviewer: “Because there’s a point where C and D companies of 2/506 come out to help
with the evacuation and that, I think, was after you left.”
Yeah, we were gone. We were gone. (38:09)
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Now through all of that did you get hit?”
No, no. To my recollection, there were thirteen or fourteen of us that were not wounded.
Interviewer: “And that was out of the whole company that—”
That was out of the entire company. Yes.
Interviewer: “All right, so once you get back to Evans, now what happens to the
company?”

�Hodges, Terry
There was a colonel, general, somebody—Came in and told us that they didn’t want us sitting
around and dwelling on what had happened and that they were going to send us right back out to
the—And they sent out back out to Firebase Kathyrn, and then we got started getting new guys
in, you know, in subsequent days. But we did not stay in the rear.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you think that wound up being a good thing for the
company?”
I don’t know.
Interviewer: “Well, how did the men react to all of that?”
I think they would have liked a little time just to be able to commensurate with each other. To
talk things out. And we did somewhat on the firebase, but it—That was, as far as firefights go—I
was in several firefights, and that was by far, in a way, the worst day I would encounter in—
during my tour or duty over there.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now how long do you think you stayed on Kathyrn before
you went out in the field again?” (40:03)
I guess a week. Maybe two weeks. I don’t really recall to tell you the truth. I know it took them
probably a week or longer to get back into that area to get the bodies out. And Browning’s wife
had requested that if he were killed that I accompany the body, which I didn’t know about. But
we were off the firebase, so it had to be several—you know, a few weeks that we were on
Kathryn. And we were actually back out in the field, and we were actually involved in a firefight.
Nothing like that day. But they sent a Loach out, and I was up firing and, you know—and so on.
And they crawled up to me and said, “Hodges, that bird’s for you.” And I said, “Really?” And he
said, “Yes.” And I said, “Well, then I’m out of here. I’m gone. I’m going to wish you guys luck.”
You know. But went and got on the bird and never will forget. He went straight up in the air
hundred or so feet and just buzzed the treeline all the way down. It was—And it was great. I was
getting in—But he took me straight to Camp Eagle, I think, where they took my weapon, ammo,
you know, all that type of thing. And then I—They—I got on a—I guess the C-130 went from
there to Cam Ranh, I think, and from Cam Ranh—And I still hadn’t—We’d been out in the field
for almost two weeks, three weeks, and I hadn’t bathed or anything. (42:16) From there I went to
Osaka, Japan. Browning’s body—Turns out was already back in the States, and they were trying
to catch me up to the body. And actually put me on a commercial flight out of Osaka. Not having
bathed or anything in a few weeks. But I would say the people on that plane were just—They
were marvelous. They were very, very, very kind people. Flew from there to the West Coast and
then from the West Coast all the way over to Dover, Delaware, which is where Browning’s body
was.
Interviewer: “Right. Did you get a chance to change clothes or bathe or shave along the
way anywhere?”
Yeah, in California. In California I did. Or it might have been not until Dover. I don’t really
remember. I remember getting my patches and all that kind of stuff in Dover, so now I’m not

�Hodges, Terry
sure. And then took a truck ride. Browning was from Georgia, and we took a truck with his body
in the back from Dover, Delaware into his hometown in Georgia for the funeral.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what—Was anything running through your head through all of
this, or were you…?”
No, I was just bone tired. I mean, I was just really tired. I was really glad to be where I was. I
was not happy at all about why I was there. I thought it was all a total waste. I always thought
everything over there was a total waste of some very good men, but I met some outstanding men
there. (44:01)
Interviewer: “Had you ever met Browning’s—his wife?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay. She just heard enough about you that…?”
I think Browning and I talking one time—I think we kind of made this deal that if something
happens to me, I’m going to ask your wife, and if something happens to you, you know. We kind
of made that pact. But we were probably sitting around drinking beer, and you know how that
goes. But after that my wife flew up to Georgia and met me, so I was able to spend a few days
with her before I had to start matriculating back to Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay. While you were in Vietnam, how much contact did you have with your
wife?”
Well, we were out forty-five days, and then one night of the seven days we were back you would
stand in line and wait for the MARS Radio. And they would place a call, and you got to talk to
her for fifteen or twenty minutes or five or ten minutes. Whatever it was. But that was the only
contact that we had other than letters. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, so—But now you’ve got to go back to Vietnam, right?”
Correct.
Interviewer: “Okay. Was that just something you accepted you had to do, or…?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah? Okay, so…”
But my wife became pregnant, you know. So that’s—And that’s my only job. So my daughter
came out of Browning passing away.
Interviewer: “All right, so now you head back out again. When you rejoin your unit, where
are they?”

�Hodges, Terry

They were back on Kathyrn, I think. I think they were. They might have been in the rear. I think
they were in the rear. (46:03)
Interviewer: “And has the monsoon started yet, or was it still dry at that point?”
It was still dry at that point. The monsoons were—Well, I don’t know. I think the monsoons had
just started because it was very wet in the mountains. I remember that I had a very hard time the
first day getting up and down the mountains. I remember that. Wading through a little river. I
remember falling face-first. My legs weren’t underneath me again at that point in time, but that
didn’t take long either, so…
Interviewer: “Okay. Now in these later months was there much contact with the enemy, or
were they largely gone?”
We didn’t have too much action after that. Little skirmish here and there. Maybe a sniper.
Something like that. But nothing anywhere near, you know, the episode in June at Ripcord. So it
wasn’t that bad, and not too long after that I got my drop of two weeks and processed out.
Interviewer: “All right. Now while you were in Vietnam—let’s see—did you ever spend any
time in areas where there were civilians, or were you always out in the field someplace?”
No. By the time I had gotten on the 101st Airborne Division, we had been banned from the city
of Huế, which was the largest town. You know, a very large town in Vietnam as far as Vietnam
goes. But no, they were—They wouldn’t allow us in the town anymore.
Interviewer: “Okay, and there were not really civilians in the hill country where you were
operating.”
No. No, there weren’t. It wasn’t like the lowlands where you had farmers and so on. No. Saw
very few civilian people. (48:14)
Interviewer: “Did you see any of the South Vietnamese military?”
No. Not that I recall.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so it was really just largely Americans, and you had your, you know,
Vietnamese scouts or whatever.”
Chiêu Hồi Scout and up and down in the mountains constantly.
Interviewer: “All right. Now there are a variety of stereotypes about Vietnam and what
happened there, and so we’ll ask about that just to see what you think of them. One of
them has to do with drug use. I mean, was that something that you were aware of or saw
any of?”

�Hodges, Terry
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. When we were back in the rear, blacks got really involved with heroin.
I would smoke pot. If it weren’t illegal, I would smoke it again honestly. But mostly just drank
beer. Alcohol. You know, hard alcohol.
Interviewer: “Now when people were out in the field, did anybody smoke anything, or…?”
No, absolutely not. That’s a good way to get lit up.
Interviewer: “Okay, and in terms of just sort of racial issues and so forth—”
Well, I say no. I was talking to Dale Tauer earlier, and there were occasions where people were
smoking out there, but I did not.
Interviewer: “Yeah. It seemed to have happened occasionally. It just—”
Yeah, obviously so. I wasn’t aware of it.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that’s kind of what I’m asking. Okay. Yeah, and
another issue has to do with race relations and things like that. And in the rear did the
blacks and whites kind of segregate themselves, or…?”
Yes, they did. Yes, they did. (50:08) Blacks thought they were being entirely persecuted and
fodder. Meanwhile, some very good white guys were getting killed, and I didn’t see the
distinction.
Interviewer: “All right. Now in the field, if you had black and white soldiers out there
together, did everybody work together?”
Yes. Yeah. It actually—Toward the end it actually got to the point to where the black guys
weren’t actually going out into the field, which I didn’t—I thought a large degree of that decision
was because they—The most of them were starting to have drug problems, but I think it was also
that the army made a conscious decision. They reacted to pressure. Political pressure. That the
blacks were being disproportionately maimed and killed, so they allowed them to stay out of the
field, which I wasn’t really happy about. Understatement. I wasn’t happy about it. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did the army make any effort to encourage you to stay in?”
No, they did not. They did not.
Interviewer: “Okay. In fact, you get an early out. Did they just offer that to you, or did you
request it?”
Nobody ever mentioned it to me. I got to Fort Lewis, Washington and just processed out as
everybody else did. Nobody ever came up and said, “Hey, we’d like for you to re-enlist,” or
anything, which would have been a large waste of their time, effort, and energy. But no, they
never did approach me about that. (52:08)

�Hodges, Terry

Interviewer: “Yeah. At that point, you’d had enough time in service. They were starting to
let people out early on a fairly consistent basis, so I think a lot of other guys went out in a
similar deal. If you had been in long enough, and you had put your year in at Vietnam,
then…”
That was—That was it. Yeah. I had put about a year in prior to that. Eleven months, sixteen days
days over there, and they were more than happy to let me go home. And I was more than happy
to go home.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what did you do once you got out?”
I went back to school. Went back to school. Actually, when I got out, my daughter was only
seven days old. And, of course, we resided in Baton Rouge. My football to my college—My
football team—My head coach offered me my scholarship back. I had one year remaining and
also another year of being the student, you know—the coach. You know, the assistant—Not
assistant coach, but—To work with the program for another year. And my wife said, “You either
go back to school there, or you be a dad.” So I stayed home and was a dad.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you find a job?”
Yeah, I went to work for Mabel. I went to work for the—It was, what? Southwestern Bell at the
time, I guess. Installing telephones and climbing poles and doing that sort of thing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you have any trouble readjusting to civilian life?”
No, but that’s not me. I kind of—Just like I didn’t have that much trouble going into the army, I
just—“That’s where I am. I’m going to make the best of this. Do the best I can.” And I didn’t
fret over a whole lot. (54:20)
Interviewer: “Okay, and once you were back, I mean, would you talk to anybody about
Vietnam, or…?”
No. No, I did not. Had no desire to do that. I didn’t think they would understand. I’ve got three
brothers. Never really discussed it with them. My marriage, you know, fell apart, and I ended up
going back to LSU and finished school. So it’s kind of roll with the punches, I guess.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Did you stay with Southwestern Bell, or did you go on to
other things?”
No, I went on to other things once I graduated. Actually, I quit working for Bell when I went and
I started the GI Bill to go back to school and had a part-time job. And one of my younger
brothers and I shared an apartment, so it worked out.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what kind of job did you wind up doing then after you finished?”

�Hodges, Terry
I ended up in marketing, so I got a sales job with old Sperry Remington when they had actually
dealerized about that point in time. And the fellow that was given the state of Louisiana—I went
to work for him in the Baton Rouge office. Eventually transferred to the New Orleans office and
then back to the Baton Rouge office. But I was thirteen years with him.
Interviewer: “All right. Now to kind of look back on things, how do you think your time in
the service affected you, or what did you learn from it?” (56:06)
I already knew how to play with weapons, so I didn’t learn that from them, I don’t think. And I
enjoyed the bigger guns and the explosives. I enjoyed fooling with that. I didn’t really learn a
whole bunch as far as—You learn about things you don’t want to know about. I learned about
war. I learned about the human capacity for sacrifice and, I guess, a lot of bad odds to do what, in
your mind, says you’re supposed to do. People caring about people. It’s probably the one thing
that I’ve gathered from getting back with these guys just for the last two years. The last two
reunions. Is that they’ve filled in a lot of pieces of what went on that bad day, but it’s also—We
also have a camaraderie that you’re not going to find anywhere else, and we’re also
commensurate with the fact that there was some really, really good young men that were wasted.
And you feel a loss about that, but then you also feel very fortunate to have reconnected with
them because they’re some great guys. They are just truly great guys. Feel about them more—
I’m not one that has a lot of friends. Don’t need a lot of friends. Never wanted a lot of friends. I
consider each and every one of them a true friend. And I’ve got a few of them back home, you
know. But that’s who I pal with. That’s who I play golf with. My circle’s not that large, but it’s a
good circle.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well, it is certainly a good group of men here. I’d just like to close up
by just thanking you for taking the time to share this story today and help fill in another
piece of it.”
I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you, Jim. (58:23)

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